# The Jake Burton Story



## P3 Mammoth (Dec 3, 2011)

I wonder if they will highlight some of the lower points of the Burton business model, such as being the first snowboard company to steal a high profile athlete from another company. The attempt to trademark the word snowboard so everyone else would have to rename their products was another gem.


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## extra0 (Jan 16, 2010)

Thanks for reminding me - I missed it and now need to search for/dvr it. 

true, Burton has done a lot of unsavory things...but I guess anyone who's been in one business for over 30 years is going to have plenty of warts. On the optimistic side, they've done more good than bad.


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## BurtonAvenger (Aug 14, 2007)

I guarantee Burton has put more shops out of business than kept ones alive.


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## Skinny Bam (Sep 7, 2012)

BurtonAvenger said:


> I guarantee Burton has put more shops out of business than kept ones alive.


yupppppppppp


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## Sassicaia (Jan 21, 2012)

Show me any successful business and ill show you one that has done "unsavory" things. If I was Burton and I thought I had a chance to trade mark the name "snowboarding" I would have gone for it...especially if I was one of the founders.

As far as steeling a professional athlete. I dont get it? Sounds like normal business to me...


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## Richie67 (Oct 11, 2012)

Would be interested in watching this if anyone can find an online link... Chur


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## hktrdr (Apr 3, 2012)

BurtonAvenger said:


> I guarantee Burton has put more shops out of business than kept ones alive.


Could not *dis*agree more.


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## BurtonAvenger (Aug 14, 2007)

hktrdr said:


> Could not *dis*agree more.


Then you obviously don't know your ass from a hole in the ground.


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## Thomps33 (Jul 1, 2011)

BurtonAvenger said:


> I guarantee Burton has put more shops out of business than kept ones alive.


Any good business model will try to eliminate competition. Can't blame them for that.


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## ShredLife (Feb 6, 2010)

hktrdr said:


> Could not *dis*agree more.


if you're just talking about Japan then you're probably right. as for the rest of the world - and for SURE in the U.S.: no. 

fuck burton and their bullshit claim to ownership of the sport.


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## BurtonAvenger (Aug 14, 2007)

Thomps33 said:


> Any good business model will try to eliminate competition. Can't blame them for that.


Are you fucking retarded? Seriously first post and that's your answer! The whole model of snowboarding was based off building retail accounts, Burton has strategically killed or pushed accounts out over the last decade. Now they have this shop local campaign. God I swear people on this forum just get dumber and dumber by the day. Go fist yourself with a chainsaw asshole.


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## hktrdr (Apr 3, 2012)

BurtonAvenger said:


> Then you obviously don't know your ass from a hole in the ground.


Actually I am a financial investor, among other things in the snowboarding industry. So while I am not going to challenge you on your riding, gear reviews, or scene cred, I think I know more about the economics of the industry than you.


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## Thomps33 (Jul 1, 2011)

BurtonAvenger said:


> Are you fucking retarded? Seriously first post and that's your answer! The whole model of snowboarding was based off building retail accounts, Burton has strategically killed or pushed accounts out over the last decade. Now they have this shop local campaign. God I swear people on this forum just get dumber and dumber by the day. Go fist yourself with a chainsaw asshole.


I'm have a bachelor of science in Investing and Accounting. Followed that up with a MBA with an emphasis in derivatives; along with owning my own business. It's painfully obvious you don't know shit about the business world. Go smoke another blunt.:laugh:
Burton's business model doesn't need to follow anybodies model and that is why they are so successful. If you don't differentiate yourself you'll end up going out of business. It's not burton's fault other businesses failed to see that market changing and make the necessary changes. :cheeky4:


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## SnowRock (Feb 28, 2011)

hktrdr said:


> Actually I am a financial investor, among other things in the snowboarding industry. So while I am not going to challenge you on your riding, gear reviews, or scene cred, I think I know more about the economics of the industry than you.


Not arguing the larger point but I am curious.. what exactly is a "financial investor?" There are millions of investors in a myriad of different industries by virtue of equities or other financial instruments.. so what exactly does that mean? Are you in PE or VC? Did you mean you were an advisor or analyst? Laying claim as an investor means you know exactly nothing more than anyone.


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## BurtonAvenger (Aug 14, 2007)

hktrdr said:


> Actually I am a financial investor, among other things in the snowboarding industry. So while I am not going to challenge you on your riding, gear reviews, or scene cred, I think I know more about the economics of the industry than you.


Japanese market is not the rest of the world once you realize that you might learn a thing or two. They have raised minimum buys, pushed production levels to a scope that gray marketing was the only way they could dump product, and bullied people on a level you can't even imagine. Just because you financially invested in distribution or a brand over there doesn't mean you get it. 



Thomps33 said:


> I'm have a bachelor of science in Investing and Accounting. Followed that up with a MBA with an emphasis in derivatives; along with owning my own business. It's painfully obvious you don't know shit about the business world. Go smoke another blunt.:laugh:
> Burton's business model doesn't need to follow anybodies model and that is why they are so successful. If you don't differentiate yourself you'll end up going out of business. It's not burton's fault other businesses failed to see that market changing and make the necessary changes. :cheeky4:


I love fucktards that instantly have to drop their degree into an argument to try and be relevant. If you're talking brand competition then yes Burton has done some great things like buying The Program and saving it from going to pricepoint crap then killing it off when they realized they needed to concentrate on their brands. As a marketing whole Burton has done amazing things to get people to want their product. But on a retail level of keeping doors open with accounts or doing what they can to help local shops they've failed miserably. There's a reason Jake got rid of Laurant, but I'm pretty sure you know all about that what with all the years of schooling you had. Though I'm guessing the only things you even know about snowboarding or even this topic are from watching this show and sticking your head in the sand while screaming I only believe what they tell me to believe. News flash buddy 15 years on the retail floor you see a lot more and learn a lot more than any fucktard that has some bullshit degree, anyone can go to college, anyone can pay for a piece of paper, not everyone can comprehend. 

Snowboarding owes more to Tom Sims than it does to Jake Burton at this point. Sims did it first! Remember that.


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## Thomps33 (Jul 1, 2011)

BurtonAvenger said:


> I love fucktards that instantly have to drop their degree into an argument to try and be relevant. If you're talking brand competition then yes Burton has done some great things like buying The Program and saving it from going to pricepoint crap then killing it off when they realized they needed to concentrate on their brands. As a marketing whole Burton has done amazing things to get people to want their product. But on a retail level of keeping doors open with accounts or doing what they can to help local shops they've failed miserably. There's a reason Jake got rid of Laurant, but I'm pretty sure you know all about that what with all the years of schooling you had. Though I'm guessing the only things you even know about snowboarding or even this topic are from watching this show and sticking your head in the sand while screaming I only believe what they tell me to believe. News flash buddy 15 years on the retail floor you see a lot more and learn a lot more than any fucktard that has some bullshit degree, anyone can go to college, anyone can pay for a piece of paper, not everyone can comprehend.
> 
> Snowboarding owes more to Tom Sims than it does to Jake Burton at this point. Sims did it first! Remember that.


15 years on a retail floor? Hahahahaha, that proves my point. I'm done here.


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## hktrdr (Apr 3, 2012)

SnowRock said:


> Not arguing the larger point but I am curious.. what exactly is a "financial investor?" There are millions of investors in a myriad of different industries by virtue of equities or other financial instruments.. so what exactly does that mean? Are you in PE or VC? Did you mean you were an advisor or analyst? Laying claim as an investor means you know exactly nothing more than anyone.


Ok, happy to elaborate: I am a partner in PE fund.


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## hktrdr (Apr 3, 2012)

BurtonAvenger said:


> Japanese market is not the rest of the world once you realize that you might learn a thing or two. They have raised minimum buys, pushed production levels to a scope that gray marketing was the only way they could dump product, and bullied people on a level you can't even imagine. Just because you financially invested in distribution or a brand over there doesn't mean you get it.


I am not talking about the Japanese market. While I now run our firm's Asia business (incidentally out of Hong Kong, not out of Japan), most of our investments (and all in the snowboarding industry) are in the US and Europe.


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## BurtonAvenger (Aug 14, 2007)

Thomps33 said:


> 15 years on a retail floor? Hahahahaha, that proves my point. I'm done here.


You're done because you have no comeback at all asshole. You had no point to begin with. You know it and I pointed it out. Go crawl back to the land of degrees where the uninformed can stare in awe that you paid for a piece of paper.


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## BurtonAvenger (Aug 14, 2007)

hktrdr said:


> I am not talking about the Japanese market. While I now run our firm's Asia business (incidentally out of Hong Kong, not out of Japan), most of our investments (and all in the snowboarding industry) are in the US and Europe.


Let me guess you're also in the camping market as well too right?


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## extra0 (Jan 16, 2010)

Thomps33 said:


> 15 years on a retail floor? Hahahahaha, that proves my point. I'm done here.


sounds like you've earned a BS in elitist asshole as well


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## hktrdr (Apr 3, 2012)

BurtonAvenger said:


> Let me guess you're also in the camping market as well too right?


If by 'camping market' you mean outdoor gear and products, then the answer is yes. Mostly seed/early stage investments in environmentally conscious players in that industry. Why?


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## SnowRock (Feb 28, 2011)

hktrdr said:


> Ok, happy to elaborate: I am a partner in PE fund.


that makes more sense then


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## SnowRock (Feb 28, 2011)

Thomps33 said:


> 15 years on a retail floor? Hahahahaha, that proves my point. I'm done here.


Why does an understanding of Black-Scholes, swaps, options, forwards et al mean you are in a better position to argue about a company's impact on local shops? You could try making your point without stringing together hackneyed biz cliches and w/o touting your degree.


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## BurtonAvenger (Aug 14, 2007)

hktrdr said:


> If by 'camping market' you mean outdoor gear and products, then the answer is yes. Mostly seed/early stage investments in environmentally conscious players in that industry. Why?


Just figuring out which companies you work with that's all. Figured you didn't want to put it out for the world to see.


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## hktrdr (Apr 3, 2012)

BurtonAvenger said:


> Just figuring out which companies you work with that's all. Figured you didn't want to put it out for the world to see.


True. To give a hint, part of our philosophy is that our investment should have a sustainability angle - that could be environmental or social/community focused (e.g., we backed a credit vehicle that provided trade financing for small shops).


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## BurtonAvenger (Aug 14, 2007)

hktrdr said:


> True. To give a hint, part of our philosophy is that our investment should have a sustainability angle - that could be environmental or social/community focused (e.g., we backed a credit vehicle that provided trade financing for small shops).


I think I know who you're working with and if I'm right that was a solid for the outdoor industry as a whole. 

But I still disagree with you on Burton and local shops. I've seen the minimum purchase order just skyrocket to a level that original core accounts with Burton couldn't sustain. They were at least smart enough to drop them and adapt to the times. Also seen shops die because of the curse of the Burton over-saturation. Then there's my personal favorite of being in a Ross or TJ Maxx and seeing in line Burton discounted for 40 to 70% off and finding tags from small shops in the pockets. That was more prevalent on the East Coast.


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## Thomps33 (Jul 1, 2011)

hktrdr said:


> Ok, happy to elaborate: I am a partner in PE fund.


I am an anchor investor in a private hedge fund. I was completely naive and inept at the time. Everything from learning to use R and Matlab, watching Collective2 algorithms fail, attending the SALT Conference (lots of smart people, free food, booze, clubs), building a prospectus (and all the revisions), backtesting, being rejected about 100 times from potential investors and finally receiving a seed fund of 75 m from Larch Lane Advisors. Not to mention the attorney fees... It was a very surreal and eye-opening experience.


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## Clayton Bigsby (Oct 23, 2012)

Ahhhhh geez, all I wanted to do was let some of you people know of a program interviewing Jake Burton on his success/product line etc. A man who's company made $500 million last, has got to know something. 

I wished that this sport would never have taken off like it has. I can remember at time if you wanted to ride BAKER, you had to prove to one of the snowboard employee's that you could turn left, turn right and stop, once you did that , then you had your picture taken and put on a separate pass that every lifty asked you for to prove that you could ride the entire mtn. Stevens Pass only let us ride weekdays and no hloidays, we once got kicked off of the mtn for riding the Friday after Thanksgiving for being "boarders". There used to be a time at BAKER when there was maybe 20 of us boarders that had a close brotherhood, encouraging each other, giving riding/gear tips, crashing at someone's house or catching a ride, now we have a bunch of "boarders" that are calling each other Fuck holes, assholes, stupid fuck, dumbshits, etc and talking shit about everyone else on the hill, but I guess that the way it is when you can hide behind your keypad. 

What has happened to the sport I love, those days are long gone, but that wont stop me and my riding buddies of 27 years from ripping up that PNW powder


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## BurtonAvenger (Aug 14, 2007)

Clayton Bigsby said:


> Ahhhhh geez, all I wanted to do was let some of you people know of a program interviewing Jake Burton on his success/product line etc. A man who's company made $500 million last, has got to know something.
> 
> I wished that this sport would never have taken off like it has. I can remember at time if you wanted to ride BAKER, you had to prove to one of the snowboard employee's that you could turn left, turn right and stop, once you did that , then you had your picture taken and put on a separate pass that every lifty asked you for to prove that you could ride the entire mtn. Stevens Pass only let us ride weekdays and no hloidays, we once got kicked off of the mtn for riding the Friday after Thanksgiving for being "boarders". There used to be a time at BAKER when there was maybe 20 of us boarders that had a close brotherhood, encouraging each other, giving riding/gear tips, crashing at someone's house or catching a ride, now we have a bunch of "boarders" that are calling each other Fuck holes, assholes, stupid fuck, dumbshits, etc and talking shit about everyone else on the hill, but I guess that the way it is when you can hide behind your keypad.
> 
> What has happened to the sport I love, those days are long gone, but that wont stop me and my riding buddies of 27 years from ripping up that PNW powder


The simple answer for you. It got profitable and marketable.


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## ComeBack_Kid (May 27, 2009)

Clayton Bigsby said:


> Ahhhhh geez, all I wanted to do was let some of you people know of a program interviewing Jake Burton on his success/product line etc. A man who's company made $500 million last, has got to know something.
> 
> I wished that this sport would never have taken off like it has. I can remember at time if you wanted to ride BAKER, you had to prove to one of the snowboard employee's that you could turn left, turn right and stop, once you did that , then you had your picture taken and put on a separate pass that every lifty asked you for to prove that you could ride the entire mtn. Stevens Pass only let us ride weekdays and no hloidays, we once got kicked off of the mtn for riding the Friday after Thanksgiving for being "boarders". There used to be a time at BAKER when there was maybe 20 of us boarders that had a close brotherhood, encouraging each other, giving riding/gear tips, crashing at someone's house or catching a ride, now we have a bunch of "boarders" that are calling each other Fuck holes, assholes, stupid fuck, dumbshits, etc and talking shit about everyone else on the hill, but I guess that the way it is when you can hide behind your keypad.
> 
> What has happened to the sport I love, those days are long gone, but that wont stop me and my riding buddies of 27 years from ripping up that PNW powder


It would be nice if no one else in the world enjoyed surfing and I could get literally every wave I want, but it is what it is. It feels amazing to do, so people will do it. It shouldn't be surprising that snowboarding is popular.

As for Burton as a whole, I applaud anyone who has the drive, ambition, and skill to capture and maintain such a large market share of any industry. There isn't a single business in the world that does this without having a product that people want. Period. 

Burton has made some great business moves including positioning themselves to the mainstream as _THE_ snowboard company early on, and they outlasted and outperformed every other manufacturer. 

As for anyone who supposedly went out of business because of their success, who cares? Cry me a river. Business fundamentals: Put out a better product and learn to market it better and you'll survive and thrive. If not, you won't. Oh well. 

While I don't ride Burton boards, I still admire Jake Burton and the company he built. The fact that he is one of the first people to convince quite a few resorts (including the largest on the East Coast) to allow snowboarders on the lifts means I think we owe him our gratitude, if nothing else.


Thomps33 said:


> 15 years on a retail floor? Hahahahaha, that proves my point. I'm done here.


LOL.


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## Clayton Bigsby (Oct 23, 2012)

I think Jake would be the first one to say that, one person he owe's a ton of gratitude to is Craig Kelly (I know, Jake stole Craig from Tom Sims). I firmly feel that Craig made Burton what it is today, Jake kept him on the pay role well after he stopped competing, then used him in R&D.

RIP CK


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## duh (Sep 7, 2011)

It's not that Burton hasn't done good things for the industry. It is the fact that Burton takes credit for everything. The whole attitude of "I invented" that simply isn't the truth, just a really well marketed spin. Snurfer, Sims and Winterstick were all making boards when Jake came out with his first board. His first board was basically the same product snurfer had already been selling for years.

A lot of people helped shape and drive our sport, Jake is only one of many. He acts like he was the only guy out there on the snow. I personally like the guy but also acknowledge that he pulled some pretty lame moves early on. In doing so he started the corruption of our sport. His business ethics are not all that they are hyped up to be. His products were stagnant for most of the history of his company and usually followed one to two years behind the trends that the real movers and shakers were making. I do applaud him for being one of the few companies to survive this long in such a fickle industry, not too many of those early brands are around anymore.

As far as thinking they are the greatest because they hold such a large market share... Walmart. Like Walmart, Burton has helped increase it's market share through manipulating distribution channels and moving American jobs to Communist countries. I don't look up to businesses that follow that model. Good for them that they are stinking rich, I hope they enjoy the success. I personally would be riddled with guilt at the shamefull actions of these companies if I owned them. 


That being said of the many, many, many boards I've ridden, the 98 Custom 64 is one of my top five boards of all time. I might even put the first year of the Triumph 64 as another of those top five boards. Either that or the Blacktop, that board was friggin fun. They make a great product that is equal in quality with other top "manufacturers" and have a product line vast enough to reach every customer base. (Are you really a manufacturer if you pay a factory overseas to make your product for you? Or are you just a designer? :dunno: )


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## hktrdr (Apr 3, 2012)

BurtonAvenger said:


> The simple answer for you. It got profitable and marketable.


+1. And now the industry (or at least part of it) is in the tricky spot where there is real money to be made, but mostly only in the mainstream.
Fact is that it is expensive to serve small niche markets. The hardcore community is way too small (and probably too price sensitive) to make much of a profit.
As a result the big players all aim for the mainstream market - or (in case of the less imaginative ones) 'artifically' try to make it a bigger portion of the overall market by pushing mainstream products but calling them 'core' (whatever that means...).


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## BurtonAvenger (Aug 14, 2007)

hktrdr said:


> +1. And now the industry (or at least part of it) is in the tricky spot where there is real money to be made, but mostly only in the mainstream.
> Fact is that it is expensive to serve small niche markets. The hardcore community is way too small (and probably too price sensitive) to make much of a profit.
> As a result the big players all aim for the mainstream market - or (in case of the less imaginative ones) 'artifically' try to make it a bigger portion of the overall market by pushing mainstream products but calling them 'core' (whatever that means...).


Oh I've said it for years that the Core market doesn't do shit for snowboarding. Hell if it did I wouldn't have to do product reviews, those only exist for the guys that go 10 days a year and gear whores that don't ride enough. I don't see a 100 day a year 19 year old Snow Carnie giving a fuck what I said about a board.


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## hktrdr (Apr 3, 2012)

duh said:


> It's not that Burton hasn't done good things for the industry. It is the fact that Burton takes credit for everything. The whole attitude of "I invented" that simply isn't the truth, just a really well marketed spin. Snurfer, Sims and Winterstick were all making boards when Jake came out with his first board. His first board was basically the same product snurfer had already been selling for years.


I am not sure whether you are referring to the specific documentary or are speaking in general. I have not seen the piece, so cannot comment on that specifically. But if it is the latter, I strongly disagree - in my experience (both from what I read in the media and personal interactions) Jake has been nothing but gracious and has always gone out of his way to give credit other people in the industry.


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## hktrdr (Apr 3, 2012)

BurtonAvenger said:


> Oh I've said it for years that the Core market doesn't do shit for snowboarding. Hell if it did I wouldn't have to do product reviews, those only exist for the guys that go 10 days a year and gear whores that don't ride enough. I don't see a 100 day a year 19 year old Snow Carnie giving a fuck what I said about a board.


Exactly. For the big players (and anybody who wants to get big) it is just not worth it to cater to the small number of hardcore rides. Anybody who does not accept that fact is deluded. 
People whining on these boards that Burton, Union, Mervin, NS, etc. do not care about them are both right and wrong - they are factually correct (these guys care more about the thousands of 10 days/year people shuffling through BC Sport or Walmart than the 100 days/year enthusiast) but wrong to expect anything else.


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## lucky13 (Aug 20, 2011)

It seems that people are getting 2 different concepts confused here. Although the two concepts may overlap slightly in some ways, they are two separate concepts...

One is the impact Burton has on their manufacturer competitors (other snowboard/gear manufacturers). IMO, (almost) all is fair in competition of like businesses. Burton has done an excellent job of retaining a majority market share. Burton can not be to blame for using their name, power, influence, money, etc. to retain their market share in the very competitive market that snowboarding has become. Business is dog eat dog..

The second concept being Burtons impact on retail shops. The retail shops are essentially Burton's customers - the retail shops are the distributor of Burton's products to the end user/ consumer. As BurtonAvenger and others have mentioned, Burton has done a lot of questionable things to the retail shops. Burton seems to have taken the stance of "It is a privilege for your shop to carry our products," which IMO, is completely wrong- it is no way to treat your customer.

Also, the fact that Burton is opening up their "Flagship Stores" and pushing products direct from their website would rub me the wrong way as a retail shop..

Being in business, I completely understand the need to protect your market share from competition at all costs. 
I also understand that customers are of the utmost importance, and need to be treated accordingly. Things change, and you never know when you will regret burning those bridges..


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