# Tail catches on NS Proto



## Beeb (Mar 13, 2012)

So I learned to ride on a skate banana and recently grabbed a Never Summer Proto for a trip to the alps. I found that the tail of my NS Proto would sometimes 'Jam' and I'd have to flatten out and try to turn again. Usually when tired at slow speeds so I'm guessing this is a technique issue, rather than not detuning the tail or anything. I don't mean a downhill edge catch, it was like the back of the board said 'no, you can't turn now' and dug in. I'd not fall down, but just completely fail to turn. 

Having that thought of the tail jamming is freaking scary on narrow paths with big drop offs down one side (the path to Creux in Courchevel was sketchy!). Being freaked out probably screwed my technique up even more! 

So before I get out riding on the proto next, what should I be looking out for in my technique? My mate reckons straight front leg could have caused it when tired or just being lazy and you could get away with that sort of thing easier on a surfy skate banana. Anything else it could be? bend zee knees/don't lean back etc etc? :dunno:


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## Extremo (Nov 6, 2008)

Coming from camber, I found the Proto rides the exact opposite of what you're describing. Maybe it's because it's not as loose as your skate banana, which I found to ride like a $10 whore.


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## kctahoe (Nov 14, 2010)

I've ridden the NS heritage and evo, and never found them "catchy". I'm sure someone with more experience with proper technique will chime in, but I'm guessing that's what it is, and btw I'm loving the evo so far.


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## behi (Feb 27, 2013)

I have something like a 'dead spot' at neutral stance, where I have very little strength and have problems twisting the board. That makes foot steering on flat stuff when going slow really tough when I use a stiff binding with a stiff board (with a mid-flex binding I can get beyond that 'dead spot').

In that situation, I use little hop turns - works really well.


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## MeanJoe (Jul 20, 2011)

Keep in mind that with the blunt tips, the Proto has a longer effective edge than the actual board length would imply. I found the first day or two out on my Proto that the tail edges (beyond my back binding) would stay engaged slightly longer than I was used to with my previous board.

It didn't take but a day or two of riding to adjust to it and compensate. I have no idea "how" I did, it is just stopped being an issue as I'm sure I made subtle unconscious adjustments.

MeanJoe


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## snowklinger (Aug 30, 2011)

I found the Proto to be much more "catchy" than my Evo. The Proto doesn't like to be ridden flat or lazy, keep it on edge, at least with a little pressure.


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## redlude97 (Jan 9, 2008)

definitely need to shift weight forward/center when initiating turns with RC/C2. Detuning does help with this though. Its a combination of the rocker profile and 0/0 base bevel. Consider getting it changed to 1/89 or 2/88 depending on your riding style.


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## Beeb (Mar 13, 2012)

Sounds like that's it, just got to get my weight in the right place and don't lock out my front knee when I'm getting tired.

On the whole though, the Proto rocked my world once I got some speed up. Felt stable (which compared to a nana isn't hard), did fine in deep powder and still was good for playing around on  Just got to get in better shape now, altitude and adrenaline really take it out of you! 

Edit: 
So it's worth me de-tuning the back just past the effective edge?


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## snowklinger (Aug 30, 2011)

I detune the fuck out of my tips to at least an inch(if not 2) past the contact points. :dunno:


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## redlude97 (Jan 9, 2008)

Beeb said:


> Sounds like that's it, just got to get my weight in the right place and don't lock out my front knee when I'm getting tired.
> 
> On the whole though, the Proto rocked my world once I got some speed up. Felt stable (which compared to a nana isn't hard), did fine in deep powder and still was good for playing around on  Just got to get in better shape now, altitude and adrenaline really take it out of you!
> 
> ...


Detune the front and the back. Similar behavior happens on the front especially in less than perfect snow. I detune to the contact points. Go to there first and then decide if it needs more.


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## aiidoneus (Apr 7, 2011)

After riding the Evo, Proto and Cobra on a regular basis ... I dunno, last time my edge caught was when I did a shifty on a small roller and landed 90 :yahoo:


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## Beeb (Mar 13, 2012)

Yeah, I did the front, but never got round to doing the back. Probably ought to both regardless since it's true twin. I'll man up and get my proto ready for my next outing and leave the jibstick at home  

Offtopic, but love the topsheet on the Proto, it's bombproof :thumbsup:


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## jdang307 (Feb 6, 2011)

The 0/0 bevel and camber sections do catch a little. I didn't notice it coming from camber. But I went to Arbor rocker for a year and definitely notice it coming back to the Cobra.

Detune tip and tail, put a 1/89 bevel on it, smooth out the contact points (I don't detune it, I just take the sharpness out or just let natural riding detune it) helps on the NS boards in my opinion.

When you're tired at the end of the day and flat base and stand straight up the NS will remind you to get back into a correct stance or it's going to throw you. I rode the Cobra with no edge adjustments whatsoever on PNW hardpack borderline icebox, and it loves to find a hard groove and take you.

Heading to Mammoth in two weeks so I'm doing the above adjustments to see how it rides differently.


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## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

I have noticed that the tail on the Proto is significantly catchier than the Evo and more so than the Heritage as well. Maybe something to do with the stiffer flex on a true twin? :dunno:

It's not as catchy as the Cobra though. That board is twitchy on groomers.

I never bothered to detune my Evo or Heritage, but the Proto definitely benefits from it.


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## aiidoneus (Apr 7, 2011)

What sizes are you guys riding? Curious about the comparison between the evo and proto. The proto is definitely stiffer and more poppy then the evo, but I don't see the catchy side. 

I ride a 150 evo and a 154 proto, 150lbs, 5'10.


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## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

I had a 158 Evo and have a 157 Proto. My Heritage was a 162. The Cobra I rode was a 158.

5'11" 185


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## jdang307 (Feb 6, 2011)

linvillegorge said:


> I have noticed that the tail on the Proto is significantly catchier than the Evo and more so than the Heritage as well. Maybe something to do with the stiffer flex on a true twin? :dunno:
> 
> It's not as catchy as the Cobra though. That board is twitchy on groomers.
> 
> I never bothered to detune my Evo or Heritage, but the Proto definitely benefits from it.


Noticed it a tiny tiny bit on the SL. A little worse on the Evo. Haven't ridden a proto but the Cobra is 5x worse. I could be lazy on the SL or Evo, not the Cobra.

Think the blunt edges and the stiffer flex might have something to do with it. I didn't need to change the SL, I put the Evo on a 1 degree bevel which helped (but with the 0 degree it was still fine). Going to definitely need it on the Cobra. IF it's still twitchy I'm probably going to get rid of it. I'm not a technical steep carving kind of guy and so I want to take the "edge" off so to speak.

I just pointed my buddy at a Proto 154 so I'll try that sucker out.


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## snowklinger (Aug 30, 2011)

154 '11 Proto and 154 '12 Evo, I weigh 175.

Even tho the whole board is stiffer, I think the Proto is softer in the press spots than the Evo now....(well the Proto has 100 days on her, the Evo only 6 or 7)


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## Chef Jer (Apr 3, 2011)

I'm a little surprised that so many folks find the Cobra twitchy/catchy:icon_scratch: I rode a Heritage last year and felt like that board required more attention than the Cobra. 

I just sharpened the edges (0*'s) on the Cobra this week as they were getting a bit dull:dunno:

155 Cobra - 5'9" 155lbs.


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## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

snowklinger said:


> 154 '11 Proto and 154 '12 Evo, I weigh 175.
> 
> Even tho the whole board is stiffer, I think the Proto is softer in the press spots than the Evo now....(well the Proto has 100 days on her, the Evo only 6 or 7)


Yeah, your Proto is just well broken in. Both new, the Evo is much softer to press.


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## Leo (Nov 24, 2009)

Chef Jer said:


> I'm a little surprised that so many folks find the Cobra twitchy/catchy:icon_scratch: I rode a Heritage last year and felt like that board required more attention than the Cobra.
> 
> I just sharpened the edges (0*'s) on the Cobra this week as they were getting a bit dull:dunno:
> 
> 155 Cobra - 5'9" 155lbs.


Agreed. Hearing from several that they are disappointed in the groomer performance. 

Not for me. That thing turns and carves like nobody's business. And I have money that says I ride worse snow than any of you here. 

To each its own. 

I do have to say though with NS boards, I find that I catch phantom edges. I never detune though. Always fun to cartwheel down a mogul bowl for no apparent reason.

I attribute it to getting lazy with my riding at times. Rocker has spoiled us all.


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## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

I wasn't disappointed per se in the Cobra's groomer performance, it just wasn't what I was looking for. I already have a Charlie Slasher, so I didn't really care about the Cobra's powder performance. I was looking for basically something halfway in between my 158 Evo and 162 Heritage. The 157 Proto fit that bill the best. If the SL was blunted, I may have went that route instead since I don't ride much switch.


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## jdang307 (Feb 6, 2011)

Leo said:


> Agreed. Hearing from several that they are disappointed in the groomer performance.
> 
> Not for me. That thing turns and carves like nobody's business. And I have money that says I ride worse snow than any of you here.
> 
> ...


That's what I mean by catchy/twitchy. Perhaps we're all using the same words to describe something completely different. :laugh:

I'm talking about the cruising along next thing you know you're a scorpion. The Cobra didn't do that to me but I've felt it warning me a few times when I got lazy. On edge it was fine (if a bit easy to over steer). Any amount of flat basing on a groomer and it twitches left, right, whatever. If you're not on top of your shit it'll twitch you right into an edge


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## trapper (Jan 15, 2013)

Leo said:


> Agreed. Hearing from several that they are disappointed in the groomer performance.
> 
> Not for me. That thing turns and carves like nobody's business. And I have money that says I ride worse snow than any of you here.
> 
> ...


See, I was initially concerned about catching edges before I bought my Heritage, especially being an intermediate rider and riding on this shit snow we ride on here. But that board is so easy going edge to edge that I still can't believe it. And that's a wide 166 on icy shit groomers. And I didn't touch the edges at all before riding.


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## Extremo (Nov 6, 2008)

jdang307 said:


> That's what I mean by catchy/twitchy. Perhaps we're all using the same words to describe something completely different. :laugh:
> 
> I'm talking about the cruising along next thing you know you're a scorpion. The Cobra didn't do that to me but I've felt it warning me a few times when I got lazy. On edge it was fine (if a bit easy to over steer). Any amount of flat basing on a groomer and it twitches left, right, whatever. If you're not on top of your shit it'll twitch you right into an edge


To me catchy and twitchy are two opposite things. When an edge is catchy it means the contact points are being engaged when they're not supposed to be. When something's twitchy it means the contact points aren't engaged when you expect them to be. 

I find the Proto to not be catchy at all, and twitchy while flat based at higher speeds.


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## hktrdr (Apr 3, 2012)

Beeb said:


> So I learned to ride on a skate banana and recently grabbed a Never Summer Proto for a trip to the alps. I found that the tail of my NS Proto would sometimes 'Jam' and I'd have to flatten out and try to turn again. Usually when tired at slow speeds so I'm guessing this is a technique issue, rather than not detuning the tail or anything. I don't mean a downhill edge catch, it was like the back of the board said 'no, you can't turn now' and dug in. I'd not fall down, but just completely fail to turn.
> 
> Having that thought of the tail jamming is freaking scary on narrow paths with big drop offs down one side (the path to Creux in Courchevel was sketchy!). Being freaked out probably screwed my technique up even more!
> 
> So before I get out riding on the proto next, what should I be looking out for in my technique? My mate reckons straight front leg could have caused it when tired or just being lazy and you could get away with that sort of thing easier on a surfy skate banana. Anything else it could be? bend zee knees/don't lean back etc etc? :dunno:


Straight front leg and leaning back sounds like classic back foot steering/ruddering. Loose rocker boards like the Banana can encourage that because they pivot easily.
Solution: Bend your knees, weight centered/forward (coming from a straight front leg, it might feel like your weight is forward, while it actually is barely centered/possibly still behind center) and use proper front foot torsional steering technique.


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## hktrdr (Apr 3, 2012)

Extremo said:


> To me catchy and twitchy are two opposite things. When an edge is catchy it means the contact points are being engaged when they're not supposed to be. When something's twitchy it means the contact points aren't engaged when you expect them to be.
> 
> I find the Proto to not be catchy at all, and twitchy while flat based at higher speeds.


Agree with that.


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## Beeb (Mar 13, 2012)

hktrdr said:


> Straight front leg and leaning back sounds like classic back foot steering/ruddering. Loose rocker boards like the Banana can encourage that because they pivot easily.
> Solution: Bend your knees, weight centered/forward (coming from a straight front leg, it might feel like your weight is forward, while it actually is barely centered/possibly still behind center) and use proper front foot torsional steering technique.


Reckon you hit the nail on the head. Shouldn't be hard to to get over it since 95% of the time I had no issues, just got to not get lazy 

I'm 185lbs, 5ft 11 and ride a 157 proto. I've just de-tuned the back  The effective edge is suprisingly far back due to the blunt tips so careful you don't blunt your edges if you do it!


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## Beeb (Mar 13, 2012)

Cheers for the advice Snowolf, that makes a lot of sense. Reckon I'm going to give the skate banana a break for a while and get used to riding with good form all the time which will help in the long run on the steeper stuff on them icy days. I was taught to ride with foot steering so I don't expect any drama  

Looking at my board it looks like there is a slight angle on the edge at the contact points at each end rather than 0/90 unless I'm missing something? 

Flat basing the flat parts always felt sketchy, staying on a very slight edge did help, but every now and again I just wanted to dig an edge in to make sure that they still worked if that makes sense? Same when cruising the steeper pistes on less than perfect snow - every now and again I'd want to slam on the breaks just to make sure I still could... Any way to break the breaking habbit?


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## Beeb (Mar 13, 2012)

Quality  Next time we go away I reckon a few hours with a top notch coach working on exactly that is in order! 

Only going to be in the alps one more time before the move to Colorado! :yahoo:


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## jdang307 (Feb 6, 2011)

Snowolf said:


> Just going to back up what Hktrdr, Leo and others have said. Banana (full rocker) will allow a rider to get away with very sloppy riding technique. While they are super forgiving to learn on and make "self taught" riding easier, they tend to allow a rider to develop bad technique that bites them in the ass (literally) when they get on a traditional camber or hybrid. Those of us who came to rocker and hybrid from traditional camber do not find these boards twitchy or catchy, quite the opposite in fact.
> 
> No deck with camber should be ridden at great length and speed flat based. Some people do it but honestly, they are relying way too heavily on luck to keep them upright. Back foot ruddering is the number one cause of edge catches and why when the intermediate self taught rider catches an edge at high speed, it is so violent. With a traditional camber or a hybrid, you need to either have decent carving skills and the ability to make instant, committed full edge changes using board tilt or use good fore movement to weight the front foot and use torsional twist from the front foot to initiate a skidded turn.
> 
> ...


I try not to flat base but sometimes you just have to. Narrow cat track. Flat area where you need a lot of speed and keeping it on edge, even just a little wil slow you down.


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## snowklinger (Aug 30, 2011)

Snowolf said:


> I disagree. On narrow cat tracks I ride on edge and use gentle rocking movements to make quick but gentle edging movements, keeping the nose pointed down the trail. On long flat sections I have fond that carving on edge is actually faster than flat basing. Typically I am generally always passing people on cat tracks and flat areas.


Experience and mountain knowledge just own so hard on cattracks. Not to mention waxing yourself so its always relatively fresh. I haven't been passed on a track in the last couple years...ever.


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## jdang307 (Feb 6, 2011)

Snowolf said:


> I disagree. On narrow cat tracks I ride on edge and use gentle rocking movements to make quick but gentle edging movements, keeping the nose pointed down the trail. On long flat sections I have fond that carving on edge is actually faster than flat basing. Typically I am generally always passing people on cat tracks and flat areas.


On the very narrow stuff I guess I have to get over my fear of overturning and going down the side of the trail.


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## Beeb (Mar 13, 2012)

Thought I'd post a little update since I got to put some suggestions to the test over the weekend. I de-tuned the tail and got my stance width sorted. 

Once I got on the slopes I made sure I rode in the front seat and really dug the edges in and tried to ride the sidecut. It was so damn good! :yahoo: Looking at my tracks it wasn't a perfect pencil line, but looked pretty narrow. I worked on getting the edge change in before the fall line which came pretty naturally. I also worked out how fast I need to be going for that to work, by doing it too slow. Not deliberate, but I learned from it! 

I did some butters and flatland spins and expected the back to catch, but it didn't at all  

On the skate banana when going slow I sometimes would stand bolt upright with straight legs and just foot peddle it, that's what I had to stop doing.


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