# Why is everybody an intermediate/advanced rider?



## jyuen (Dec 16, 2007)

Been bugging me for sometime. Every time someone introduces themselves to this forum, they say stuff like... 

hi guys, i'm new to the forum. i would consider myself an intermediate/advanced freeride, beginner in the park... blah blah blah..

personally i don't think that's how the normal distribution is supposed to work. if everyone's an intermediate/advanced rider... where are all the beginners?

what's everyone's take on what's considered beginner/intermediate/advanced/expert?


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## Shazkar (Dec 14, 2011)

Same reason everyone likes to claim they're in the "middle class"?


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## Jason (Feb 15, 2011)

It's the Internet. I fly to resorts in my own helicopter that lands on my NYC penthouse. I'm a pretty big deal.


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## photobetty (Jan 8, 2012)

jyuen said:


> personally i don't think that's how the normal distribution is supposed to work. if everyone's an intermediate/advanced rider... where are all the beginners?


I'm here, representing the beginners! 



Jason said:


> It's the Internet. I fly to resorts in my own helicopter that lands on my NYC penthouse. I'm a pretty big deal.


(But yeah, since it's the Internet...I'm a beginner with a private helicopter and penthouse.)


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## tAo77 (Oct 14, 2010)

Heres my opinion, though it is very generalized...

Beginners aren't in love with the sport enough yet to join a forum. Whereas by the time your Intermediate/Advanced...you get the point

Like I said, a generalized opinion. :dunno:


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## C.B. (Jan 18, 2011)

Well because if your serious enough about snowboarding to go on a forum, you probably ride enough to not be a noob.

seems simple to me.


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## jello24 (Apr 10, 2010)

everyone's an intermediate rider on the internet because they know they're never gonna get called out on it.

also, all the beginners OBVIOUSLY don't even know that there's a forum on snowboarding. They just don't give enough of a damn to find us. However, once they start realizing their Elan rental boards and Burton whatever rental bindings aren't cutting it anymore, they'll eventually find us.


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## SnowRock (Feb 28, 2011)

I feel like plenty of people own up to be beginners on here no? Or people progressing to the intermediate level.. plus a forum of this nature probably appeals to those most interested in the sport who are already experienced riders or at least those that want to get past the beginner point as quickly as possible. 

At the same time I also think the nature of snowboarding actually lends itself pretty well to people becoming "intermediates" rather quickly. If you can get past the first few days and being on the snow a ton more than if you were on skis, many can progress pretty quickly to what they likely consider an intermediate level. 

Now to be an old man, I would argue that the newfangled tech has allowed people to get to that perceived intermediate without developing the skill of carving as well as people in the past were forced too..


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## Toecutter (Oct 11, 2009)

I'm a beginning expert.


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## anwell (Mar 6, 2011)

What is the definition of intermediate rider? And advance rider?


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## Toecutter (Oct 11, 2009)

Snowolf said:


> Most people think that by the time they can link turns they are intermediate. Its kind of the same thing as thinking that because you are linking skidded turns, you are "carving down the mountain".....eh wrong!


Some hot shot on TGR said that snowboarding was easy because after only 15 days of riding he had mastered it. Upon further questioning I discovered that to him "mastering" snowboarding just meant linking turns. No switch, no park, no jumping, no tricks, no backcountry...just linking turns. Ha, a true Master!


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## Lunchball (Jan 2, 2012)

I'm sure there are plenty of others out there, but most people don't like to be called a noob, so they over sell themselves. 

I'm a noob, but a noob with a 12 inch penis.


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## poutanen (Dec 22, 2011)

Define beginner, intermediate, advanced, expert??? For the courses done at Fernie, they offer 5 levels. My girlfriend has been boarding for 2 years now and she matches up pretty well with Snowolfs description of an intermediate (she's on blue's all day, exploring some blacks, comfortable in moderate off-piste, trying out switch, small jumps, etc.)

According to the instructer she had last time, she was a level 4 (signed up for level 3 and they moved her up into the next group)... 

I would say the border between intermediate and advanced/expert is when you feel comfortable approaching a lip at speed, throwing yourself off the lip (insert whatever grab/trick/etc. while airborn) and then landing right back into short sharp carves, etc.

Expert would be comfortably handling Black/Double Black off-piste terrain. I saw a cliff at Lake Louise a couple weekends ago that actually made my heart jump. First time in a while I've looked at something and said "I don't know if I'd want to go down that"! 


This reminds me, it was a bluebird day at nakiska Sunday. No fresh powder so I hit the groomers and did some carving. I went under the chair most of the run so I could see my tracks, and they're actually not what I expected! I've got to pull a picture up (took some from the lift) but instead of a continuous "s" I actually had distinct "C"s with a very clear 1-2' gap where I transitioned between edges. I wasn't specifically jump turning, just doing short quick carves from edge to edge and back... The board must just have that much pop that it floats for a second when my weight isn't on it. I'll dig up a pic if anybody cares...


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## ThunderChunky (Oct 1, 2011)

I think the levels of progression are dumb. The intermediate level is way to nice. I would consider someone who has complete control and doesn't fall unless they are doing some freestyle stuff would be an intermediate. I can do grabbed 360s and can bomb any run and do the simple jibs with boardslides. I can pretty much hit any jump and at least do a grab. I would consider myself at the upper end of intermediate. According to this scale though it seems I would be higher and I really don't think I am.


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## grafta (Dec 21, 2009)

I dunno, seems to me like a lot of people come here for help on some beginner stuff :dunno:

Where is all this claiming going on?


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## Ryan_T (Oct 18, 2011)

I'm a beginner/Intermediate. Steeps still scare me. I still fall sometimes when on completely new/unpredictable terrain. Could get more comfortable with speed. Also being from the Northeast, I'm sure my Intermediate level is even lower than West.


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## ilikecoupons (Jan 20, 2012)

Lunchball said:


> I'm a noob, but a noob with a *12 inch penis*.


Also, I think that it's silly to be called intermediate/advanced. If you need help, just state what you can do and what you want to do.


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## Milo303 (Apr 6, 2009)

Snowolf said:


> The fact that it "bugs" you tells me you need to worry about more important things in life like global warming, war and the economy....:cheeky4: Seriously though, I get this all of the time as an instructor. You get the guy who shows up for a park lesson or a blue intermediate lesson and he claims to be a godd intermediate rider only to discover he has never made a toeside turn.....



BINGO!

10charachahar


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## MarshallV82 (Apr 6, 2011)

I see plenty of beginners on this site, where have you been? 

Plenty of guys here that live near resorts and ride/post everyday too.. 

What's the big deal?


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## Bones (Feb 24, 2008)

Ryan_T said:


> Also being from the Northeast, I'm sure my Intermediate level is even lower than West.


That's another part of the problem...run categorization. A blue run around here would be a green in real mountains. A black around here is a black only because it narrows for 50 yards or has one short steep pitch.

So...if you can get down an Eastern Black with a lot of side-slipping and the occasional pucker-inducing turn, you're probably going to consider yourself an intermediate rider.


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## Toecutter (Oct 11, 2009)

Snowolf said:


> TGR and douchebag are totally interchangeable words; That site reeks of douchebaggery...:laugh:


No doubt about that.


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## Sincraft (Sep 6, 2010)

jyuen said:


> Been bugging me for sometime. Every time someone introduces themselves to this forum, they say stuff like...
> 
> hi guys, i'm new to the forum. i would consider myself an intermediate/advanced freeride, beginner in the park... blah blah blah..
> 
> ...


Ima 40 year old newb, 2nd year in and to date have only ridden on east coast slabs of ice. I have a decent amount of control and sure, someone could easily think I've been doing this for awhile if they don't know better, but my confidence and ability to do anything really all that fun doesnt exist. I can hold an edge down a hill, so yea...still a newb, that is all...


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## newguy36 (Feb 23, 2010)

tAo77 said:


> Heres my opinion, though it is very generalized...
> 
> Beginners aren't in love with the sport enough yet to join a forum. Whereas by the time your Intermediate/Advanced...you get the point
> 
> Like I said, a generalized opinion. :dunno:


This is exactly what I was going to say.


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## kleco63 (Dec 22, 2011)

I was creeping around this forum before I ever stood in a snowboard mostly to try and decide on a board, Singed up the day after my first run on a local hill, and no joke in the month and a half Ive been riding, Ive been out over 30 times, 10 in the first two weeks...I love snowboarding! Yesterday in the mountains I went up a chair that said expert riders only and I didnt fall or hurt myself on the way down so this must mean I'm an expert then right?


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## sm0ke (Mar 21, 2011)

Snowolf said:


> A true intermediate rider is comfortable riding blue terrain and off piste blue terrain and is beginning to explore blacks. They are riding more dynamically in their skidded turns and are starting to actually carve. They have the ability to ride some basic switch. If they are park oriented, they will be able to 50/50 boxes without any problems and are probably exploring boardslides. Can ride the pipe through the transition and are able to straight air off small kickers.


well you basically just described me haha...i guess im intermediate - except i usually stay on blacks
park skills are only 50/50'ing rails but i can throw backside 3's (not consistently though) lol


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## jyuen (Dec 16, 2007)

Snowolf said:


> A true intermediate rider is comfortable riding blue terrain and off piste blue terrain and is beginning to explore blacks. They are riding more dynamically in their skidded turns and are starting to actually carve. They have the ability to ride some basic switch. If they are park oriented, they will be able to 50/50 boxes without any problems and are probably exploring boardslides. Can ride the pipe through the transition and are able to straight air off small kickers.


damn... off piste runs don't exist where i'm from... forever beginner >.<


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## grafta (Dec 21, 2009)

MarshallV82 said:


> I see plenty of beginners on this site, where have you been?
> 
> Plenty of guys here that live near resorts and ride/post everyday too..
> 
> What's the big deal?


Thank you! Jeeeesus, I don't know what people here are on about :dunno:



.... yet I keep reading this thread.... go figure


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## ceridwen (Dec 14, 2011)

Snowolf said:


> Seriously though, I get this all of the time as an instructor. You get the guy who shows up for a park lesson or a blue intermediate lesson and he claims to be a godd intermediate rider only to discover he has never made a toeside turn.....


This explains why when I did an intermediate private lesson last week the instructor made me start out by showing him I could link turns on the bunny slope I suppose.

Maybe it's just the threads I typically read but I see a lot of people introducing themselves as beginners here. I know I introduced myself as a beginner in my first post here. That said, I'd say I'm pretty solidly intermediate now (by Snowolf's definition anyway) and it didn't take all that much. I think the thing is that most people just don't stay beginners very long.


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## BurtonAvenger (Aug 14, 2007)

jyuen said:


> Been bugging me for sometime. Every time someone introduces themselves to this forum, they say stuff like...
> 
> hi guys, i'm new to the forum. i would consider myself an intermediate/advanced freeride, beginner in the park... blah blah blah..
> 
> ...


 I don't even snowboard I just pretend to be one on the internet. Does it really matter what people want you to believe they are on the Internet. I've met enough kooks that come on forums such as this one or others that can't fucking ride. Oh you're an expert? Oh you cried on my warm up run? Oh you kill it in the park? Oh you think jump 1 in Parklane is a 30 footer? Blah blah blah. Care about yourself not what others think. My general rule with this site is to believe that everyone is only half as good as they proclaim and to treat them like I would any vacationing tourist in Breck. 



Snowolf said:


> TGR and douchebag are totally interchangeable words; That site reeks of douchebaggery...:laugh:


Are we talking about my site here? I was confused you said TGR not AS jeez!


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## HoboMaster (May 16, 2010)

Yea... there is definitely a separation to be made between judging people on freestyle and freeriding. Got to be hilarious to bring an east-coast rail rat out West and push them down a steep tree run :laugh:


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## gjsnowboarder (Sep 1, 2009)

Don't even get me started on the this. Major pet peeve when I have to teach the local college class. I hate to say it but boarders on the whole are fairly ignorant of the progression in riding ability and skills. In skiing this is less likely to happen, Parents just seem to sign up their kids for lessons and take lesson all thought life. They seem to be more knowledgeable. Boarders on the other hand tend to have a a bigger majority that throw themselves at the slopes and due to the heelside hero complex believe that since they can stand up anywhere on the mountain they can ride any where on the mountain and this make them an " advance" rider. My ass their advance. Just cause you can heelside done something or have the balls to point it straight down a steep run or at a jump doesn't change your riding level. if you can huck pull a spin and land it makes you an effing gymnast. Lets see you make that same move in the backcountry where you haven't made a jump, or off that cat walk at the end of a bump run or off a boulder in the middle of the trees. now lets see you do it switch. Sorry for the rant, there is nothing like thinking you are going to get paid to actually ride at a high level and then find out theperson can't ride and edge or wants to learn 180's or greater but can't ride switch. Or better yet with the college class causes cluster [email protected]#$s with the split process and waist everyones time students and instructors both. One of the reasons I like this forum is everyone seems to want to get better, knows there is more out there, and generally is laid back. So with no further ado this is the way that I see riders,

Beginners - never ever ridden or probably less than three days or are riding below a level 4.
Intermediate - Think HIGH level fours but primarily 5 - 7s primarily ride green and blues
Advance - 8-9 Ride primarily blues and blacks
Experts - pro-riders, also instructors and coaches with a high level of understanding. Tend to ride anywhere on the mountain and on in areas that aren't "marked" runs.

Its not all about the terrain, but it is a good indicator
See next post for what I drew up after having one to 14 college kids you said they were level 8-9s but couldn't riding switch let alone some of them make s-turns on green terrain.


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## BurtonAvenger (Aug 14, 2007)

HoboMaster said:


> Yea... there is definitely a separation to be made between judging people on freestyle and freeriding. Got to be hilarious to bring an east-coast rail rat out West and push them down a steep tree run :laugh:


Eh depends on the kid. Local K2 regional rider turned rep. First year 148 k2 www, second year 152 k2 darkstar, third year 156 turbo dream, 4th year 160 slayblade, 5th year 16? panoramic.


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## gjsnowboarder (Sep 1, 2009)

1. Level 1 Snowboarder – Definition – Rider is new to the sport of snowboarding. They have never ever been on a board, or ridden a lift. Riders that have been on a board but never been on a lift or express the desire to start from the bowl could be included in this level.
2. Level 2 Snowboarder – Definition – Has ridden the lift and may or may not be able to complete both heel and toe-side skidded traverses on green terrain with a stop.
a. Riding Tasks – Traverses toes and heels, Skating, Gliding, maybe able to ride lift without falling.
 i. A quick bowl refresher maybe needed (ie how do we get on and off lift)
3. Level 3 Snowboarder – Definition – Is able to ride green terrain performing traverses on both edges, starting to perform garlands, and j-turns on a regular basis. Lift riding abilities are evident.
a. Riding Tasks – Traverses, Garlands, Falling Leaf, Side slipping, J-turns.
b. Freestyle tasks – maybe flatland spins, manuals, nose/tail stands on flat terrain two foot hopping in a traverse.
4. Level 4 Snowboarder – Definition – Is able to perform a basic skidded turn with an edge change in the fall line on green terrain. All level three tasks can be performed with speed control. 
a. Riding Tasks – Level three riding tasks, C-turns and basic skidded s-turn. 
b. Freestyle Tasks - flat spin 180’s and 360’s can or could be performed. Maybe manuals, hopping in traverse.
5. Level 5 Snowboarder – Definition – Is able to perform s-turns on green terrain with rhythm and flow evident. Rider is starting to seek more challenging terrain on easier blue terrain. 
a. Riding Tasks – rhythm and flow is demonstrated by symmetrical turn shape between toe and heel turns. Rider is capable of using vertical motion while turning and is able to vary radius size and direction of turns.
b. Freestyle Tasks - 50-50s are possible on ride on features. Two footed hops should be possible and other freestyle from earlier levels. Nose and tail manuals.
6. Level 6 Snowboarder – Definition – Is able to perform basic skidded turns on blue terrain and is starting to show the ability to be more dynamic in body movements in riding. Rider maybe starting to ride switch on green terrain. 
a. Riding Tasks – Carving turns on mellow blues and green terrain, Green bumps, cross-under/down unweighting turns.
b.  Freestyle Tasks - straight airs, 50-50s on rails, starting board slides, and ollies. 
7. Level 7 Snowboarder – Definition – Is able to perform shorter radius turns being most flexed at edge change on blue terrain and higher intensity carve turns on blue and green terrain. 
a. Riding Tasks - Mogul riding on easier blues and definitely green runs. Should be capable of switch riding on blue terrain and switch carves on green terrain. Dolphin turns.
b. Freestyle Maneuvers consist of small to medium size jumps with grabs. Rail riding and boxes with a possible pressure and or rotation movements. Rider maybe starting to spin over small to medium size jumps. 180’s and working on 360’s. toe to toes are possible at this level. Butters as well
8. Level 8 Snowboarder – Definition - Is able to ride black terrain both carving and using short radius turns. Carving on black groomers and carving switch on blue terrain. 
a. Riding Tasks - Should be getting into riding switch on most places on the mountain. Should be capable of black bumps. Toe to Toes, and heel to heel turns should be possible at this level of riding.
b. Freestyle – Pressure and or with rotation movements on maneuvers on boxes and rails, spins over jumps 360 and higher. Should be getting into grabs while spinning.
9. Level 9 Snowboarder - Definition – Anywhere anytime. The mountain is this rider’s playground.
a. Riding Tasks – ability to do it all.
b. Freestyle – Rider is comfortable in most places in the park. Pro-riders come from this level.
P.S. Not everything needs to be accomplished. I consider my own riding to have some level 7 aspects up through 9 level aspects. Depends on what is ridden or attempted. I truely believe that when people get to the level 6 range is when they start to specialize in the sport in one area or the other.


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## IdahoFreshies (Jul 9, 2011)

i think a lot of people honestly think they are better than they are. They think they are an intermediate/expert in their world and dont look at the big scope of the sport (and no, im not talking about a pro level like TR). I think a true "expert" would be able to go to almost any resort and ride all of the terrain pretty decently, with good form. If snowolf's "definition" of in intermediate rider is accurate then ya, i would say i am an expert freerider and beginner/intermediate freestyle rider. Also as stated before park and freeride are on opposite ends of the spectrum. So while it is appropriate to say you are an expert, make sure you specify which discipline you are an expert in if you are claiming your skill level. you just have to remember that no matter where you go, there will always be someone who can ride so much better than you it will make you look like this is your first time strapping in.


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## AdamBQ (Sep 15, 2009)

See, I can ride pretty much anywhere on a mountain, marked or unmarked runs. If I can I will spend the whole day on blacks and on double blacks. However, I only consider myself intermediate because my switch sucks and I am not great at bigger airs. Once I can nail switch and hit 20ft cliffs (im around 10ft now) I will probably consider myself advanced.

It's too subjective though. Two years ago I also thought of myself as intermediate, but I am WAY more advanced now, so who knows.


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## aiidoneus (Apr 7, 2011)

This is why:

Dunning?Kruger effect - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## chronicsmoke (Nov 30, 2011)

Thanks to Snowolfs definition I feel better about myself/riding ability :laugh:


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## sabatoa (Jan 18, 2011)

Snowolf said:


> A true intermediate rider is comfortable riding blue terrain and off piste blue terrain and is beginning to explore blacks. They are riding more dynamically in their skidded turns and are starting to actually carve. They have the ability to ride some basic switch. If they are park oriented, they will be able to 50/50 boxes without any problems and are probably exploring boardslides. Can ride the pipe through the transition and are able to straight air off small kickers.


Last season I posted about my lowly beginner status whenever I commented to something. According to snowwolf's definition I'm a legit intermediate now.

So yeah, the beginners are here and they post...then they progress.


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## BoardWalk (Mar 22, 2011)

Travis Rice is an expert, that guy/girl who scorpions every time they try a heelside turn is a beginner. The rest of us fall somewhere in between.


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## LuckyRVA (Jan 18, 2011)

BoardWalk said:


> Travis Rice is an expert, that guy/girl who scorpions every time they try a heelside turn is a beginner. The rest of us fall somewhere in between.



exactly...intermediate/experts


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## BigmountainVMD (Oct 9, 2011)

Ryan_T said:


> Also being from the Northeast, I'm sure my Intermediate level is even lower than West.


Totally wrong!! I dunno, take an intermediate rider who always gets to ride on a few inches of fresh every day (at least) and put them on an icy black run on the east coast? The only way they are gonna make it down is on their ass. I do find this more with skiers than boarders though. Seriously though, my winter break I was at Snowbird, Jackson Hole and Heavenly, conditions were horrible and icy and there were yard sales ALL OVER THE MOUNTAIN. It turned into a game to ollie over goggles, poles, skis, etc...

When we ride double blacks, they are covered in ice... when they ride double blacks out west, they are filled with powder or it's "not even worth it."

Every one of my friends that has moved out west gets commended for being a good rider in variable conditions.


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## Toecutter (Oct 11, 2009)

BigmountainVMD said:


> Totally wrong!! Take someone from Utah and throw them on the ice coast and they can't even stand up let alone ride down the mountain. Although I find this more with skiers than boarders. Seriously though, my winter break I was at Snowbird, Jackson Hole and Heavenly, conditions were horrible and icy and there were yard sales ALL OVER THE MOUNTAIN. It turned into a game to ollie over goggles, poles, skis, etc...


Hyperbole.


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## Kapn.K (Jan 8, 2009)

grafta said:


> .... yet I keep reading this thread.... go figure


I know. It's f'n killin' me too. It started nowhere, doesn't feel like it's gonna go anywhere, yet here I am...


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## CheeseForSteeze (May 11, 2011)

BoardWalk said:


> Travis Rice is an expert, that guy/girl who scorpions every time they try a heelside turn is a beginner. The rest of us fall somewhere in between.


Pretty much this. I call myself an intermediate. Not the best, not the worst. There are probably more precise definitions for AASI and all that but I'm not an instructor so I don't concern myself with that.

The important thing is that you stay hungry, keep progressing more gnarly riding on more difficult terrain and that at the end of the day, you're a better snowboarder than you were at the beginning and had some fun, too.


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## Death (Oct 21, 2010)

tAo77 said:


> Beginners aren't in love with the sport enough yet to join a forum. Whereas by the time your Intermediate/Advanced...you get the point


This. 

#commentextension


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## BataleonArtist (Feb 8, 2012)

Death said:


> This.
> 
> #commentextension


I'm a total beginner and I'm offended


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## Death (Oct 21, 2010)

It's generalizing, but glad to see you like the sport enough to come on here :laugh:


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## IdahoFreshies (Jul 9, 2011)

BigmountainVMD said:


> Totally wrong!! I dunno, take an intermediate rider who always gets to ride on a few inches of fresh every day (at least) and put them on an icy black run on the east coast? The only way they are gonna make it down is on their ass.  I do find this more with skiers than boarders though. Seriously though, my winter break I was at Snowbird, Jackson Hole and Heavenly, conditions were horrible and icy and there were yard sales ALL OVER THE MOUNTAIN. It turned into a game to ollie over goggles, poles, skis, etc...
> 
> When we ride double blacks, they are covered in ice... when they ride double blacks out west, they are filled with powder or it's "not even worth it."
> 
> Every one of my friends that has moved out west gets commended for being a good rider in variable conditions.


no, totally wrong. thinking because a rider out west rides "good conditions" that they cant go ride some icy "blacks" out east is flawed logic. Sure the beginners probably were falling alot because ice is harder to ride and they dont know what they are doing, but take any normal rider and going down some east coast "black" ice runs and the only thing they will have a problem with is boredom.


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## hikeswithdogs (Sep 23, 2011)

It's amazing how many people I see on the mountain who are unable to even properly link "carves" without skidding , I mean when you ride like your on a rail it's an amazing feeling(to me)and then being able to do what I call hop or jump turns where you actually catch air moving from edge to edge using the "flex" of the board to me that's the essence of snowboarding.

Now when it comes to freestyle I can land 360's(sometimes) and maybe even a super sketchy sad 540ish in a half pipe about 1 out of every 8 tries.


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## CMSbored (Apr 2, 2009)

Im a beginner, i just like to pretend to know what im doing so that people will "respect" me and make me feel better about myself. 6 years of snowboarding and i still havent mastered linked turns.


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## onefutui2e (Jan 25, 2011)

i agree with some previous statements that people think they are better than they are. there have been times where i went with people who led me to seriously overestimate their levels which ends up with me ditching them and going off on my own. i typically have the following conversation with new snowboarders. in a span of a minute or so they go from overconfidence to sheepishness.

me: "yeah, next time we hit the mountain i can show you a few things and give you some tips to help sharpen your riding."
newbie: "nah i don't want to hold you back. i'm starting to get the hang of it myself anyway, you know? i realized it's not too hard and i'm one of those people like to figure things out on their own."
me: "oh, alright. well, how's it going for you this season anyway?"
newbie: "i think i'm getting better. it was my third trip out and i was already going down blues."
me: "cool. so you know how to carve and everything."
newbie: "almost. i'm still trying to get used to my toe-side."
me: "oh...so you did the entire run on your heels?"
newbie: "yeah, kind of."

it seems like in a lot of newbies' minds, simply making it to the bottom of the trail without hurting yourself makes you an intermediate, whereas more advanced riders stick by the adage "if you're not falling you're not learning" schtick. because of that, i can't imagine being an instructor as i barely have patience to teach my own friends sometimes.


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## IdahoFreshies (Jul 9, 2011)

when i see people (usually beginners) on the hill blatantly boarding wrong (or their "friends" TEACHING them wrong) i just want to go over there and show them what to do. oh god, when people ride down the hill by staying on their heel edge the whole time and go goofy regular goofy regular, making the Z down the hill it infuriates me for some reason. WHY CANT YOU JUST DO IT RIGHT?


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## onefutui2e (Jan 25, 2011)

IdahoFreshies said:


> when i see people (usually beginners) on the hill blatantly boarding wrong (or their "friends" TEACHING them wrong) i just want to go over there and show them what to do. oh god, when people ride down the hill by staying on their heel edge the whole time and go goofy regular goofy regular, making the Z down the hill it infuriates me for some reason. WHY CANT YOU JUST DO IT RIGHT?


i hate them simply because they end up ruining the snow (applies to skiers who just pizza the whole way down too).


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## poutanen (Dec 22, 2011)

IdahoFreshies said:


> no, totally wrong. thinking because a rider out west rides "good conditions" that they cant go ride some icy "blacks" out east is flawed logic. Sure the beginners probably were falling alot because ice is harder to ride and they dont know what they are doing, but take any normal rider and going down some east coast "black" ice runs and the only thing they will have a problem with is boredom.


I grew up riding in the east (Ontario, Quebec, VT, NH), and since then I've moved to the west (Hit Fernie, Kimberley, Nakiska, and Lake Louise so far).

The blacks in the east aren't less steep than the blacks here on average. Hell from hill to hill ratings change.

There actually is a fair bit of ice here in the West, and we did get our share of powder in the East too.

The biggest difference I notice is more raw terrain out west. Less money is spent on grooming and it seems like your mentality has to be different (i.e. more alert) in the West to stay on top of your game.

The whole East vs. West debate is pretty lame. :cheeky4: edit: YAY this is my 100th post! lol


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## BataleonArtist (Feb 8, 2012)

IdahoFreshies said:


> when i see people (usually beginners) on the hill blatantly boarding wrong (or their "friends" TEACHING them wrong) i just want to go over there and show them what to do. oh god, when people ride down the hill by staying on their heel edge the whole time and go goofy regular goofy regular, making the Z down the hill it infuriates me for some reason. WHY CANT YOU JUST DO IT RIGHT?


As I can surely understand this point of view, it did help me a lot to go through this step. As a total beginner (like me) it can be kind of startling to turn on one of your first descents, so this was a good way for me to get somewhat more in touch with the mountain. I only did this a couple of times though, before I started with C-turns.


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## 566487 (Jan 3, 2012)

I think its probably because the progression from falling on your ass all day to linking turns is so drastic and in a lot of cases it only takes a few days, especially if you get lessons or you're a member of this forum.

I still think I'm a beginner, but hopefully I'll be intermediate by the end of this winter.


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## jyuen (Dec 16, 2007)

IdahoFreshies said:


> when i see people (usually beginners) on the hill blatantly boarding wrong (or their "friends" TEACHING them wrong) i just want to go over there and show them what to do. oh god, when people ride down the hill by staying on their heel edge the whole time and go goofy regular goofy regular, making the Z down the hill it infuriates me for some reason. WHY CANT YOU JUST DO IT RIGHT?


the best is when people leaf down the hill and tell me the next day they can ride switch... :laugh:


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## HoboMaster (May 16, 2010)

jyuen said:


> the best is when people leaf down the hill and tell me the next day they can ride switch... :laugh:


I've heard this so many times...


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## sm0ke (Mar 21, 2011)

according to snowolf im intermeidate but in my mind im a fkn pro:laugh:


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## lisevolution (Sep 20, 2007)

mpdsnowman said:


> You know its neat because being involved in meets for a long time now you really do get a real perspective on the abilities of the members of this and other forums ive been on.
> 
> I would say the average rider in here has less than two full years of experience under their belts when they first join. With that the definition of beginner, intermediate, advanced, expert has to be defined to the individual and learning curve applied as you ride..Basically meaning one who rides say 35 times a season vs a rider of 4 times a season that rating if you will has a wide curve range...
> 
> ...


I'm with you Carm, as someone who has seasons as big as 45-50 days all the way down to this year where my first turns are coming Saturday due to conditions and a really inconvenient back issue that reared it's ugly head again around Thanksgiving and generally rides more with skiers than boarders at this point, it really is about the stoke in the end.

As for the east west thing I agree that most east coast riders and skiers can adapt to any terrain while I have seen people coming from the west struggle with the crappy snow we get on the east. Of course for any of us coming from the east and heading west and get their first taste of a deep pow day you are going to struggle because you just have never had to make turns in that much snow or have to learn how to adjust your speed so you don't get stuck. It's not just about the ice, it has a lot to do with the differences in snow type. Of course though if you're solid in your riding fundamentals it doesn't matter where you're coming from because you should be able to adapt to anything.

Beyond that the terrain out west is spectacular, you have just about any type of run you want available to you and the sheer scale of everything is sick. Even the smallest resorts pack more vertical than the biggest ones on the east.


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## poutanen (Dec 22, 2011)

lisevolution said:


> Beyond that the terrain out west is spectacular, you have just about any type of run you want available to you and the sheer scale of everything is sick. Even the smallest resorts pack more vertical than the biggest ones on the east.


Yeah my local hill is Nakiska, which everyone seems to make fun of out here... But it's 2400 ft vert which is over 3 times the height of the biggest hill in Ontario, there are three high speed lifts. They have some decent glades on one side, a decent park, and lots of great groomer runs for bombing.

I've got some pictures there this year that look fantastic! Not the deep powder of the Fernie bowls, or the rocky cliffs at Lake Louise, but a great resort that's only an hour away from my house! The West is spoiled...


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## kleco63 (Dec 22, 2011)

We out west are spoilt rotten, you can ride November-March


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## poutanen (Dec 22, 2011)

kleco63 said:


> We out west are spoilt rotten, you can ride November-March


Yep, I started Nov 26th this year, done 17 days so far, going again tomorrow. Planning on riding into May. The great thing is my mountains have good snow right now and there's nothing on my street at home. I've only had to shovel a couple times this year... :laugh:

I enjoyed learning in the East, and I'll always miss Jay Peak, but I love living in the West.


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## kleco63 (Dec 22, 2011)

poutanen said:


> Yep, I started Nov 26th this year, done 17 days so far, going again tomorrow. Planning on riding into May. The great thing is my mountains have good snow right now and there's nothing on my street at home. I've only had to shovel a couple times this year... :laugh:
> 
> I enjoyed learning in the East, and I'll always miss Jay Peak, but I love living in the West.


Are you nuts! Riding in May? That's when boating season starts! Aka Wake boarding!!


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## poutanen (Dec 22, 2011)

kleco63 said:


> Are you nuts! Riding in May? That's when boating season starts! Aka Wake boarding!!


The rivers are raging here in the spring, planning on starting Kayak season in June or so. I think I heard that Sunshine's season lasts almost until May 24!?!


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## Argo (Feb 25, 2010)

I started my season in October injured on Jan 17 and will probably still get some turns late march early April. Out east my season would be over for sure. I will also still get a week of riding in the summer plus a week in late spring in the PNW. Along with whatever extra season length we get out of abasin this year.


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## poutanen (Dec 22, 2011)

Argo said:


> I started my season in October injured on Jan 17 and will probably still get some turns late march early April. Out east my season would be over for sure. I will also still get a week of riding in the summer plus a week in late spring in the PNW. Along with whatever extra season length we get out of abasin this year.


I was thinking of doing some of that July hiking boarding where you find a mountain with a permanent snow pack, hike up it and board down. Apparently the snow can get "sun cupped" or something, but just boarding in July would be great! There's a mountain up towards Jasper, AB that I think is well known for that. 

Maybe I'll take a trip to Alaska or the Yukon in August. 

I like wakeboarding too but it's just not the same...


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## deifys (Jan 4, 2012)

Level 7, intermediate. Practising switch, fun, but feels so wrong!


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## BoardWalk (Mar 22, 2011)

Argo said:


> Along with whatever extra season length we get out of abasin this year.


I love positive thinking too, but isn't Abay something like 45% open now?


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## Argo (Feb 25, 2010)

I'm hoping for a good spring..... recovering from a broke leg I have to look forward to something! !!!


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## jdang307 (Feb 6, 2011)

My friend who kept leafing didn't want to learn to ride properly. Why? Because he was fast, real fast on that leaf. It's not a falling leaf, he would shoot down the mountain heel side the whole way at a very acute angle. He would straight line without ever going toe side if that makes sense. Only switching from goofy to regular when he ran out of room.

So I teach him to go toe side, and immediately after he says "I can carve now!"

No. You can't carve. I can barely carve correctly (my heel side carves suck, I end up skidding).


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## Gustov (Dec 17, 2011)

Snowolf said:


> Oh another ignorant east coaster who thinks that the west never sees ice and its all powder every day and western riders cant ride ice...
> 
> This statement is pure bullshit and is made out of ignorance of the reality. The ice we deal with on Mt. Hood for example, thanks to freeze thaw cycles, freezing rain events, rain that refreezes, etc can be horrendous. It is also not something that occurs rarely. It is the norm. I ride ice way more than I ride powder and I am doing on slopes in excess of 40 degrees. Your "double black diamonds" in the east are barely blue runs here whereas a double black diamond run here is in excess of 45 degrees and if it is covered in ice it can literally kill you from the fall (see recent death on Mt. Hood). Often if a west coast riders says that a double black is "not worth riding" it is a life saving decision. I can promise you that I will out ride you on ice any day of the week; especially on those landfills you call mountains....:laugh:


what you say is completely true, and i agree with you. but i often hear from people out west complain that at the end of the day things got "tracked out and icy," or some complaint along those lines. but those conditions would be a really good day where i live. but i've seen pictures of mt hood with icicles that are sideways in the trees, so i'm pretty sure there's some real ice up there.


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## poutanen (Dec 22, 2011)

Snowolf said:


> Yeh, we do have "powder snobs" but as bigmountain pointed out, this is more from the skier side. Most of us out here just roll our eyes at those pussies too. Problem with those types is they can`t generally ride off the groommer so once the groommers get tracked out, they are done but there remains 90% of the off piste terrain that is still good.


My girlfriend might be one of those people (can't say it too loud cause she lurks here too). I'll go to the hill any day I can, but if there's a chance it's hardpack/icy she won't go. Although she's still learning so I can understand her not wanting to fall and ruin her season. :thumbsup:


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## Kwanzaa (Sep 4, 2011)

poutanen said:


> My girlfriend might be one of those people (can't say it too loud cause she lurks here too). I'll go to the hill any day I can, but if there's a chance it's hardpack/icy she won't go. Although she's still learning so I can understand her not wanting to fall and ruin her season. :thumbsup:


It's understandable. It's kind of intimidating to push yourself on an icy day. If your going to spend the money and do the same stuff you already know there's no point in going if you can't have fun.


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## poutanen (Dec 22, 2011)

Snowolf said:


> Yep! the only time I really say "fuck it, its not worth the 77 mile drive" is when it is raining an inch an hour like it does frequently on Mt. Hood....:laugh:


We were at Fernie for a weekend in mid-Jan this year and the Saturday it rained a lot. After driving 3.5 hours we just boarded all day anyway. Wiped the water off the chairs as we were getting on each run. It was worth staying because they bombed the bowls all day sat and sunday morn, mid morning they opened a bunch up and I rode in some of the deepest powder I've ever been in!!!


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## BoardWalk (Mar 22, 2011)

Argo said:


> I'm hoping for a good spring..... recovering from a broke leg I have to look forward to something! !!!


Keep the faith...


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## Bones (Feb 24, 2008)

Snowolf said:


> Oh another ignorant east coaster who thinks that the west never sees ice and its all powder every day and western riders cant ride ice...


I'm an Easterner who rides out west for a week every year. 

Yes, the West gets ice, but a lot of small places in the East only have ice (due to the high % of snowmaking)

Regardless, it's comparing apples and oranges. Even if the West was boilerplate from top to bottom, the season is almost double, the terrain is way more serious and there's tons of it.

Try as I might, I can't do the vertical mileage around here in a normal week that I can do in the West in one full day. 

The East has got some good riders, but to imply that they're good because they ride on ice constantly really belittles their abilities.


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## poutanen (Dec 22, 2011)

Bones said:


> I'm an Easterner who rides out west for a week every year.
> 
> Yes, the West gets ice, but a lot of small places in the East only have ice (due to the high % of snowmaking)
> 
> ...


Yeah I've done 665 km on the snow already this year, did 67 km in one day at Lake Louise... Back east I was lucky to do 45 in a day at Jay Peak. More big resorts with high speed lifts = less time in lift lines = more miles on the snow.

Last year it took me 21 days to do 550 km (my whole season). This year I've hit 665 in 17 days. Also my vertical meters each day is much higher. I'm doing 4-7k vertical meters here... My legs are paying for it though, gotta get back in the gym!


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## SnowRock (Feb 28, 2011)

poutanen said:


> Yeah I've done 665 km on the snow already this year, did 67 km in one day at Lake Louise... Back east I was lucky to do 45 in a day at Jay Peak. More big resorts with high speed lifts = less time in lift lines = more miles on the snow.
> 
> Last year it took me 21 days to do 550 km (my whole season). This year I've hit 665 in 17 days. Also my vertical meters each day is much higher. I'm doing 4-7k vertical meters here... My legs are paying for it though, gotta get back in the gym!


And you both just touched on another reason generally us riders or skiers from the east have a tougher time of it. On an empty day at one of the locals I can bang out close to 15k of vert (between 4-5 in meters) in about 3.5 hours but that will consist of 20+ runs. I am 33 and could be in much better shape and can do that without any real breaks of substance (outside of the chair rides).. but when I am going to be out west again this year with friends who get on the snow 30+ days and can go non-stop I am going to be DYING.

I see more people sitting than riding on most of our hills.. how on earth are they going to handle a run with 2k+ of vert at somewhere like stowe let alone out west? I imagine they would squeeze in 2 all day.


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## doktrin (Feb 14, 2011)

Snowolf said:


> Keep in mind though that park is on a scale all of its own. I have seen kids who can just kill it in the park but cannot carve or even ride dynamically down a blue run outside of the park. I am the exact opposite in that I frequently ride big mountain line on 60 degree pitches through chutes, trees over small cliffs in almost any snow condition. I am a low intermediate park rider however and have not done a 360 off of a medium kicker.
> 
> This is why in recent years, the AASI system has actually separated general all mountain riding and freestyle. They are two completely different disciplines and you can now be a level 3 instructor without a freestyle certification. Many older instructors just are not physically able or willing to go big in the park but are still expert riders.


This is a very good point. 

Park prowess is often associated with skill. In fact, I'm guilty of this type of thinking as well. It's partly justified - park riding is, imo, the most challenging aspect of snowboarding - especially at resorts (and even more so on EC resorts, where I live). 

However, it's also kind of absurd. I wouldn't ever think of saying skiiers had to be newschoolers in order to be considered advanced - and that's because I primarily associate skiing with racing, not tricking.


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## poutanen (Dec 22, 2011)

doktrin said:


> This is a very good point.
> 
> Park prowess is often associated with skill. In fact, I'm guilty of this type of thinking as well. It's partly justified - park riding is, imo, the most challenging aspect of snowboarding - especially at resorts (and even more so on EC resorts, where I live).


I remember being 13 and spending most of my time in the park. I think it's just a different skill. Frankly you can't be great in the park without being great on the groomers anyway. 

That's why I like "Big Mountain" or FreeRide I guess. I consider dropping a cliff into powder about as challenging as laying some really hard carves on a groomer and about as challenging as some big air in the park. The great thing about trying to master is all is no matter what hill you're at, or what the weather's like you can find something to work on.


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## Bones (Feb 24, 2008)

Snowolf said:


> There are many very good east coast riders who come out here on a deep powder day and cannot make it down the mountain.


Another one here.

This year, I rode my little local ice rink for a few on Wednesday after work. Flew Thursday, did my first run at Kicking Horse Friday morning in mid-thigh powder. And tomahawked my way down the first pitch, trying to remember how to ride in powder. Rest of the day and the week were phenomenal, but that first run...ooooo. Flew home the next Thursday, went out Friday after 24 hours of freezing rain. And spent my first run on my butt, my face, my knees, trying to remember how to ride on ice.


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## Ryan_T (Oct 18, 2011)

Snowolf said:


> Kind of a funny "flipside" to this argument. Powder riding is super fun but it, like anything else has a substantial learning curve. This is especially true for west coast maritime wet, heavy "Cascade cement". Many people from both the east coast and even locals who have not gotten the powder experience really flail and struggle with it. There are many very good east coast riders who come out here on a deep powder day and cannot make it down the mountain. I have a good friend who was a fellow instructor at Mt. Hood Meadows from the east coast who literally would stay home on a powder day because he hated powder......:laugh:
> 
> The guy was a killer rider in the park but just could not ride powder and didnt want to go through the learning curve to get good at it.



We have the worse equivalent of that. On slushy days when all the man-made snow turns into bigger clumps. They feel heavy, sticky, and the board feels sluggish. 

There was a time when I hated it when we have more than 2" snowfall. The 'Powder' stuff feels funny and I'd either catch an edge or stop. Then I realize it's cause I'm too used to riding hardpacked/groomers. It's definitely a different mode of riding.


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## metric (Jan 16, 2011)

Snowolf said:


> A true intermediate rider is comfortable riding blue terrain and off piste blue terrain and is beginning to explore blacks. They are riding more dynamically in their skidded turns and are starting to actually carve. They have the ability to ride some basic switch. If they are park oriented, they will be able to 50/50 boxes without any problems and are probably exploring boardslides. Can ride the pipe through the transition and are able to straight air off small kickers.


Well this pretty much describes me to a T, other than riding the pipe. Since it's only my 2nd season I seem to still call myself a beginner though.

Regarding the powder riding, I certainly got my ass kicked trying to ride powder for the 1st time ever last season at Laax in Switzerland. That place is incredible for off piste acreage, but man I ate a lot of snow that day. Looking forward to getting another shot at it when I go to Mammoth & Big Sky later this year (if they ever get any snow )


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## Listheeb21 (Jan 20, 2011)

IdahoFreshies said:


> no, totally wrong. thinking because a rider out west rides "good conditions" that they cant go ride some icy "blacks" out east is flawed logic. Sure the beginners probably were falling alot because ice is harder to ride and they dont know what they are doing, but take any normal rider and going down some east coast "black" ice runs and the only thing they will have a problem with is boredom.


Agreed. When I was a kid there was an old axiom that if you can ski here (New England) you can ski anywhere. Now that I've traveled some I see that as a crock of crap. All things considered, the terrain out west is considerably steeper and more challenging. Yes, the "Front Four" at Stowe are challenging, but nothing compared to some of the stuff I've seen in Utah and Wyoming. And just because you can ride icy groomers at Loon doesn't mean you can drop into a 45 degree chute at Snowbird.


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## Ryan_T (Oct 18, 2011)

Yep, I used to think steepness simply means it'll be faster. It's much more involved than that.


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