# Avalanche at Loveland Pass Colorado. `



## Argo (Feb 25, 2010)

5 confirmed dead from my recent understanding.... Very sad. That's 6 in a few days up here

The one that went on vail pass was a deep slab and very strong. I'm guessing this one was just as bad.


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## AcroPhile (Dec 3, 2010)

I just can't believe this. Hopefully it's not one of our own. RIP 

terrible.


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## 509-pow (Feb 22, 2011)

damn man thats is sad news. anything good happening in this country. seems like nothing but bad news the last couple of week. 

R.I.P. shred that pow pow in heaven for us.


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## Argo (Feb 25, 2010)

The vail pass gut was out of Westminster. Mark McCarron


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## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

Fuck. This sucks.

Potentially related to this?

The Rocky Mountain High Backcountry Gathering kicks off tonight - Snowboard Magazine


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## DrGreeNThumB420 (Aug 19, 2007)

rode LL today....this is sad to hear :thumbsdown:


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## CassMT (Mar 14, 2013)

5 riders down, so terrible...can't imagine how friends and fam must feel...no words


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## killclimbz (Aug 10, 2007)

They were all attending a splitfest promoted by Snowboarder Mag.

The Rocky Mountain High Backcountry Gathering kicks off tonight - Snowboard Magazine

I chose to do my own thing at Bert. Loveland Pass is not great for splitting, I don't know why it wasn't held at Berthoud Pass. Which has plenty of dangers. So don't read this as it should have been there. This is bad, really bad. There are going to be people involved in this that are well within six degrees of separation for me. I can't stop crying.


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## sponger606 (Nov 26, 2011)

OMG! soo bad, rest in peace fellas!


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## killclimbz (Aug 10, 2007)

I am going to let both threads fly. This is a horrible day. I think the discussions about this event are going to be valid. Keep it classy. 5 people are dead. Regardless of what happened, the price paid was too high.


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## CheeseForSteeze (May 11, 2011)

This is horrible. I was up there Tuesday and I was sketched out and called it after two lines arouns 2 PM. I hope the best for all surviving family and friends who are affected by this, especially any SBF folks. May you find peace.


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## blunted_nose (Apr 26, 2012)

Dang, makes me think about my decision to splitboard every time, and every time i think to myself; this could be me. I sincerely hope that where ever you go after life, its snows alot. Kind of like your own little private baker? Oh god.... I feel for them all.

I must ask, was there anyone involved that's from SBF?


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## Chef Jer (Apr 3, 2011)

Driving back from Vail today we were like why the fuck is Loveland pass closed (wasn't snowing and roads were fine). 

Condolences to do all the families affected by this.


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## ShredLife (Feb 6, 2010)

:thumbsdown::thumbsdown:


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## bamfb2 (Mar 16, 2011)

It seems like every big disaster I hear about occurs when there are huge groups involved. I'm getting into splitting next year, so this is a total amateur hour observation, but that's what it feels like.


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## Treegreen (Mar 16, 2012)

bamfb2 said:


> It seems like every big disaster I hear about occurs when there are huge groups involved. I'm getting into splitting next year, so this is a total amateur hour observation, but that's what it feels like.


Big groups result in various kinds of heuristic traps. Ian McCammon has a great article on the psychology of back country travel that I would recommend to anyone. For example, he found that "people who travel alone or in groups of 6-10 appeared to expose themselves to significantly more hazard than groups of four or groups of more than ten." Although he can't tell us why.


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## bamfb2 (Mar 16, 2011)

Treegreen said:


> Big groups result in various kinds of heuristic traps. Ian McCammon has a great article on the psychology of back country travel that I would recommend to anyone. For example, he found that "people who travel alone or in groups of 6-10 appeared to expose themselves to significantly more hazard than groups of four or groups of more than ten." Although he can't tell us why.


Got a link? Or is it easily googleable?


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## ARSENALFAN (Apr 16, 2012)

Oh man. What a nightmare. To see lives cut short like this is gut wrenching. May their families find peace.


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## killclimbz (Aug 10, 2007)

We lost some really good guys today. This is going to rock the snowboard industry. 

And yes bamfb2 you should find it on google easy enough.


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## AcroPhile (Dec 3, 2010)

So was there a secondary slide today on the pass that caused them to close the road or was this part of the same incident? 

I'm trying to find the article about the road closure but it seems to have disappeared from the Denver Post's website.


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## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

AcroPhile said:


> So was there a secondary slide today on the pass that caused them to close the road or was this part of the same incident?
> 
> I'm trying to find the article about the road closure but it seems to have disappeared from the Denver Post's website.


The road closure may have just been to try to facilitate the attempted rescue.


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## AcroPhile (Dec 3, 2010)

Anyone know where this happened?

One of the articles I read made it sound like it was closer to the Loveland Ski area side. Maybe just past the backcountry access gate off chair 1?


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## Argo (Feb 25, 2010)

7NEWS - 5 snowboarders killed in avalanche by US 6 Loveland Pass - Local Story

This seems to be the most up to date info I've seen.


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## 16gkid (Dec 5, 2012)

I was at loveland today and left right when this happened, i think i saw this group gathering up before they all took off : (, heading back on 70 to denver there were 3-4 cop suvs flying past the other way, now it makes sense, RIP


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## killclimbz (Aug 10, 2007)

It was on Sniktau, which is a peak off of the continental divide on Loveland Pass. Above the Loveland Valley.


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## t21 (Dec 29, 2010)

R.I.P to the ones unfortunate and prayers to their families and friends. man this really sucks....


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## AcroPhile (Dec 3, 2010)

killclimbz said:


> It was on Sniktau, which is a peak off of the continental divide on Loveland Pass. Above the Loveland Valley.


Just did a quick search to get an idea of where Sniktau is. Looks like this isn't the first time this area has slid.


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## CassMT (Mar 14, 2013)

As in Tunnel Creek, there were how many? Like 17 people out there, several of which knew better, several who thought, how can anything happen to these amazing guys?
To me thats the saddest part, how avoidable it was, but that groupthink kicks in and...


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## BurtonAvenger (Aug 14, 2007)

Today is a shitty day for Colorado, the Colorado snowboard scene, and the snowboard industry as a whole. We lost some amazing people. Seriously sucks and I'm glad my close friends weren't involved but saddened it happened to some great people I knew.


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## The Intern (Feb 24, 2011)

Terrible day. The scene around the splitfest HQ was down right heart sinking. Thoughts to those who lost their lives and those who were invloved.


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## killclimbz (Aug 10, 2007)

CassMT it's too soon to say what they did. It was a fairly large group. Six involved, it may have been larger to start. They were at the splitfest so I am sure stoke was high. There will be a detailed report from the CAIC soon enough. 

That drainage, Sheep Creek has slid several times before. I believe there was a serious accident back there early in the last decade. Around 05 or so.


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## CassMT (Mar 14, 2013)

I was refering waay back to the comment about groups etc, by the time i got it typed there were 10 posts in between, no idea about this incident, just came out wrong, agree on all points...

Really awful news...and i'm headed out to hike right now, 6" fresh, i'm gonna playing it beyond careful today


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## BFBF (Jan 15, 2012)

7NEWS - 5 snowboarders killed in avalanche by US 6 Loveland Pass - Local Story


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## RockyMTNsteeze (Oct 21, 2012)

This is sad. My mom called me because she was worried I was involved. I had no idea about this because I left early yesterday from A-basin and went to sleep. Then I went to work. I seldom ride Loveland Pass, but did either Monday or Tuesday. I took just a few runs. There were visible slides that were set off from avalanche control that day. It was very busy too.

At A-basin I got a little worried when I looked over what cornices I wanted to drop at the Zuma Bowl. I thought it looked sketchy, especially with a large group standing on them. I am wondering how 5 people were taken. Maybe a cornice broke. I always thought people were suppose to drop in one at a time in the back country.

I don't know who were involved, I have not heard any names yet. I hope I don't know them. I know many people who ride up there on the regular. The pass is popular and The Basin was crowded. There were probably a lot of people out there yesterday. Many probably left from the Basin because the crowds were too much.

All of the casualties had beacons from news reports I read.


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## ShredLife (Feb 6, 2010)

the reports out so far are saying that they remote triggered the release from below. 

everyone speculating and mmqb should stfu and frankly, stay out of this thread.

there is a very very high chance that people who use this board or other online snowboarding/splitboarding sites are involved in this - there could very well be people who are friends with the victims or first responders to the event checking these kind of threads for releases of information.


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## killclimbz (Aug 10, 2007)

I know I talked with one of the victims when I ran into him on Cameron pass earlier this season. 

RMS, this should serve as a wake up call to you. 

I don't think we had any forum members involved in this, but also don't have a complete list either. It is very possible we lost some members.


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## ShredLife (Feb 6, 2010)

there is alot of crossover on this site from splitboarding.com members - most of them just don't post much. 


remember that when you're posting in a thread like this: the victims friends and/or family members could easily be reading what you are writing. 

the backcountry snowboarding community is growing, but still a small and intimate group - this event will effect many people.


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## killclimbz (Aug 10, 2007)

Shred I have a few names of those involved/killed. I haven't gone through and searched emails yet as I just don't want to know. I know too much already. I am waiting for the official release of names before I figure this out.


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## RockyMTNsteeze (Oct 21, 2012)

They released the names of the people killed in the slide on the news.

They were from various places in Colorado. My condolences to their families. I never like hearing about avalanches.


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## tj_ras (Feb 13, 2011)

Truly truly sad. heard about this last night from a friend, i had no idea what he was talking about. +++vibes out to anyone affected by this and best thoughts/wishes go out to everybody in the backcountry/sidecountry/avy zones/etc. , be safe guys and dedicate a few lines for those we've lost.


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## ShredLife (Feb 6, 2010)

this looks to be a pretty big slide. 

10 ft crown, sounds like it was about 200 yards wide. 














































KillClimbz - if you or anyone feel like having these pictures posted is too much, too soon then please delete this post.


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## ShredLife (Feb 6, 2010)

Ian Lanphere, 36; Crested Butte, CO.

Rick Gaukel, 33; Estes Park, CO.

Chris Peters, 31; Lakewood, CO.

Joe Timlin, 32; Gypsum, CO.

Ryan Novak, 33; Boulder, CO.

Rest In Peace. 

deep, deep condolences to all the family and friends effected. this is going to impact a whole lot of people. 

what a terrible tragedy.

http://www.9news.com/news/article/331776/339/Snowboarders-killed-in-avalanche-IDd


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## killclimbz (Aug 10, 2007)

Rick is a splitboard guide in Rocky Mountain National Park. I ran into him on Cameron Pass this season. Nice guy.

Joe is the Jones snowboards rep for Colorado. I exchanged some emails with him. Never met him personally

Ian and Ryan are name I feel like I know. Unsure.

RIP fellow shredders.


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## MarshallV82 (Apr 6, 2011)

I know who Chris is, just an acquaintance but just the same.


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## that1guy (Jan 2, 2011)

So fucking tragic. I don't even know what to say.


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## bamfb2 (Mar 16, 2011)

Wow on those pictures.

That second shot with the dude walking through it really gives you an idea of the scale of the slide. Pretty big.


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## neni (Dec 24, 2012)

Such an awful tragedy!
To read the names made me cry even if I don't know them. My deepest condolences to families and friends affected. 

And thanks to all the rescue teams and volunteers who are training their dogs to be avalanche rescue dogs and devote their leisure time to help others.


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## Argo (Feb 25, 2010)

only one I knew was joe. Good guy. Would see him around the valley often. RIP to all of them. There was quite a bit of experience in the group. I knew about him being part of the group last night when another friend called and told us.


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## AcroPhile (Dec 3, 2010)

Here's another picture from the Denver Post that really puts the size into perspective:


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## Ocho (Mar 13, 2011)

My sympathies to the friends, families, and rescuers. May you find light and peace through this dark and difficult time. 

Hearing this really rocked me. I do not know the victims. I've never ridden bc (but always have wanted to). I'm thousands of miles from CO. But. I think we're all connected through this shared love of snowboarding, so the loss is felt deeply nonetheless. 

This is terribly sad. Rest in Peace.


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## blunted_nose (Apr 26, 2012)

AcroPhile said:


> Here's another picture from the Denver Post that really puts the size into perspective:


Oh dang. That looks like a huge piece. At least they died doing what they love in such a beautiful place. When i go, i hope the same, snowboarding somewhere my soul can stay and keep on shredding.


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## jtg (Dec 11, 2012)

AcroPhile said:


> Here's another picture from the Denver Post that really puts the size into perspective:


That does not look steep _at all_. With no backcountry experience, I would probably see something like that and think it was safe to ride on due to the slope alone. 

Is that picture deceptive (maybe it's steeper out of the frame?), or can that really slide?


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## killclimbz (Aug 10, 2007)

The Longmont Times Call has a good article about this tragedy. 

Boulder snowboarder among 5 killed in backcountry avalanche on Loveland Pass - Longmont Times-Call

Mike Bennett aka Shredgnar appears to be the first on scene. I feel terrible for him. I know he promoted this event. Way to get out there and attempt a rescue. My hat is off to him.

I talked with Ian for over an hour at the 2012 SIA show. Super nice guy. Gecko skins was his company, and I was grilling him on the product and some of it's perceived problems. He was super open about it and willing to talk about the direction they were going. It was one of the more memorable chats I had at that show. Again, this really sucks.

Fuck this week...


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## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

jtg said:


> That does not look steep _at all_. With no backcountry experience, I would probably see something like that and think it was safe to ride on due to the slope alone.
> 
> Is that picture deceptive (maybe it's steeper out of the frame?), or can that really slide?


Pics can be deceiving. It's definitely steeper out of frame. That's one thing to keep in mind - just because you're not on an avalanche slope doesn't mean you're not potentially exposed to danger. Being below an avalanche slope is obvious danger, but you can get the rug ripped out from underneath you if you're above an avalanche slope too.


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## killclimbz (Aug 10, 2007)

30-45 degrees is prime avalanche terrain in Colorado. I don't know the average angle of the slope that ripped but my understanding is that it was on the lower end of that scale. Which say at 30 degrees is not that steep, though it still can rip on you.

You can also be on flat terrain and trigger a slope from above or below as linville stated. Depending on where you are at, you could very well be in life threatening danger.


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## ShredLife (Feb 6, 2010)

killclimbz said:


> You can also be on flat terrain and trigger a slope from above or below as linville stated. Depending on where you are at, you could very well be in life threatening danger.


at the risk of supposition i believe from reading so far that that is what happened here. 

the deposit zone looks really flat, making the debris pile that much deeper...


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## jtg (Dec 11, 2012)

killclimbz said:


> 30-45 degrees is prime avalanche terrain in Colorado. I don't know the average angle of the slope that ripped but my understanding is that it was on the lower end of that scale. Which say at 30 degrees is not that steep, though it still can rip on you.
> 
> You can also be on flat terrain and trigger a slope from above or below as linville stated. Depending on where you are at, you could very well be in life threatening danger.


30 degrees seems surprising, but much more than that is getting pretty steep, at least compared to what resorts have. The pic looks way lower than 30 though. I see from the other pics, that particular one might be deceiving. Still the ripping out from under you is a good point.

Found this:









Slope Steepness

It is surprising to me that steeper slopes drop off quickly. Though I do recall hearing/reading someone say 38 degrees is the sweet spot, I guess there is truth to that.


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## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

Like your post stated, the steeper slopes generally don't hold enough snow. They slough off or here in CO with our dry snow, simply don't accumulate snow. The type of snow that will stick to those steep slopes isn't the type of snow that tends to develop and harbor persistent instabilities. Wetter, deeper snowpacks tend to stabilize quicker than dry, shallower snowpacks. You get a rotten layer in the CO snowpack, it tends to hang around all winter long until the snowpack goes isothermal. We still have the equivalent of a winter snowpack right now. It's been COLD lately.

This incident is far more sobering and scarier than than if it had been a typical Loveland Passer with no gear and no knowledge riding obviously sketchy lines. Anyone with any knowledge can look at a situation like that and see what went wrong - pretty much everything. But, everyone in this group was very experienced and knowledgeable. Certainly far more so than myself. When something like this happens to guys like that, it really shakes up everyone. Not only is it tragic and sad, but it's also just plain scary.


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## lernr (Feb 3, 2012)

Deepest sympathy to all family and friends!


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## King_Pin_Rich (Mar 7, 2011)

Just seen this news on BBC News, i'm from the UK.

Absolutly awfull, my biggest heartfelt condolenses for all friends and family involved. Chokes me up thinking about it. 

Sending love from over the water. RIP.


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## neni (Dec 24, 2012)

I’ve been taken aback a bit to read (here or on other sites) comments like "wake up call" or "how could this happen, they were experienced / they all had beacons…?". 

Don’t know the US/Canada statistics (Switzerland is only a tiny country; this 12/13 season so far: 21 fatalities in avalanches, 14 backcountry, 7 off-piste; a disturbing sad, but rather normal number), and I’m aware that different regions have different snowpack, but some statistics will be true everywhere. I add them here, as further eye openers. 

The survival rate rapidly declines after 15 minutes. A beacon won’t save you. Even if you have a beacon, you very likely won’t be found fast enough. It only enhances your survival IF there are people already on-site that can _immediately_ begin to search. 



















This graph always makes me sad. I frequently hear people say "hazard is only moderate, it’s safe to go". No, it’s not _safe_, it’s only _less dangerous_. There are so many micro environments on a hill. The majority of a region might be “moderate” but some (sometimes tiny) spots could still be very dangerous. It’s nature, it’s not ordered, it’s not linear, it’s very heterogeneous. You can only try to analyze what you see, try to make a good estimation and hope that your guess is right. Even the most experienced ones can’t predict an entire hill. 

(graphs are from the Swiss Institute for Snow and Avalanche Research: SLF > Prevention > Avalanche accidents


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## killclimbz (Aug 10, 2007)

Neni, more fatal accidents happen during "moderate" conditions than any other rating. That is the full on green light condition for many people. It's a scary rating in my mind because it usually means it is not easy to trigger a slide but if you do it is of the more destructive variety. Deep slab, pull th rug out from under you. Not the new snow, wind, soft slab variety. This is where reading the avalanche report daily can really help with your decision making process. 

What I am riding this year at this time is much different than the previous two seasons. Some similarities, but there are also tweaks to my approach. I seriously hope I am making the right decisions. There is probably something I could be doing better. Seems like there always is so look for it. 

For the record the avalanche danger on Sunday was considerable at and above tree line going from North to East to I believe Southeast aspects. Below tree line it s as moderate. It sounds like they were crossing the Sheep creek drainage almost at tree line. Again though this not fully confirmed so don't take too much stock in it. I have also read they were spacing out. This went so large that there is no way you could be spaced apart enough. 

You can bet this is going to be broken down big time. We are still talking about tunnel creek and this one hurts just as much. As wolfie has stated the best thing we can do is read the final report as to what went wrong. File it in your head and when similar conditions present themselves to you, recognize it and take appropriate actions to avoid it. That is the best way to honor our fallen brothers. This of course is easier said than done. 



Sent from Verticalsports.com Free App


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## d2cycles (Feb 24, 2013)

First, RIP and prayers for the families.

Second, this is scary stuff. It sounds like these guys were experienced and taking the correct steps to stay safe. I've never been in the back country but I've been thinking of trying it. How can a rookie stay safe and make good decisions if people as experienced as this got caught?

Finally, what are some good avalanche training sites to get the basics? I rode the lift with some ski patrol that were going to do avalanche control at Crested Butte and found the conversation interesting. I'd like to learn more about it.


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## mojo maestro (Jan 6, 2009)

There was a NARSID at Loveland inbounds on April 17.


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## killclimbz (Aug 10, 2007)

d2cycles said:


> First, RIP and prayers for the families.
> 
> Second, this is scary stuff. It sounds like these guys were experienced and taking the correct steps to stay safe. I've never been in the back country but I've been thinking of trying it. How can a rookie stay safe and make good decisions if people as experienced as this got caught?
> 
> Finally, what are some good avalanche training sites to get the basics? I rode the lift with some ski patrol that were going to do avalanche control at Crested Butte and found the conversation interesting. I'd like to learn more about it.


Avalanche.org - Home Page is a good place to start. All sorts of great info there.

The backcountry forum on this site has a lot of useful info pinned to the top of the forum.


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## bamfb2 (Mar 16, 2011)

killclimbz said:


> This is where reading the avalanche report daily can really help with your decision making process.
> 
> What I am riding this year at this time is much different than the previous two seasons. Some similarities, but there are also tweaks to my approach. I seriously hope I am making the right decisions. There is probably something I could be doing better. Seems like there always is so look for it.
> 
> As wolfie has stated the best thing we can do is read the final report as to what went wrong. File it in your head and when similar conditions present themselves to you, recognize it and take appropriate actions to avoid it.


Preface: I'm a novice BCer who will be getting into splitting next year, so take this for what it's worth.

That's what makes the point that Snowolf dropped in the middle of his post so important (and scary).

"How many times have we come home to our families as a result of luck rather than judgment? "

It's not always something you can plan for, evaluate, or even learn from. You might be doing the incorrect thing and get away with it 15 times in a row. You are conditioning yourself to think you are doing the right thing, based on your own observational empirical results. You might just be getting lucky.

Then the 16th time out, you continue to do the wrong thing (thinking it is right), and you trigger a slide. Only chance decides whether it's fatal or not. This is what worries me most. I can learn everything I need to know, but you still don't know.

******************************

*EDIT: This was mentioned earlier in the thread by Treegreen, but I thought I'd repost here after googling, for those who are interested*:

Evidence of heuristic traps in recreational avalanche accidents by Ian McCammon (pdf)

Also:

Human Factors and their Influence on Avalanche Accidents by Ian McCammon

The Psychology of Backcountry Safety by Mike Richardson (pdf)

Blog: Human Triggered slides Jan 31 - Feb 3 by Bruce Tremper


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## brownSnow (Jan 7, 2009)

sending love & deepest condolences to any of friends or family on this forum, may they all RIP


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## killclimbz (Aug 10, 2007)

Let me say that if you are doing the incorrect thing 15 times in a row, you are either not using your education or just don't know. It is a learning experience out there for sure. One incorrect decision that seems rather small, can magnify into life taking events in a heartbeat. Literally. There isn't whole lot of room for error out there. Fortunately there are some very good and easy to follow practices that can limit the chances of you making that mistake. It still doesn't hurt any less when something like this happens though.


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## mhaas (Nov 25, 2007)

This really sucks to hear. RIP shredders.

For me, the "wake up call" with this and the Craig Patterson fatality is reminding me to always be on my guard. I often (mistakenly) have a false sense of security on the up track. Subconsciously, It just seem like a less violent and disruptive form of travel than descending, as far as triggers go. I have definately cut corner/taken shortcuts across or under suspect slopes, wearing a veil of invincibility. If nothing else, these tragedies should act as heel risers that keep us on our toes in the BC. Stay safe out there.




d2cycles said:


> First, RIP and prayers for the families.
> 
> Second, this is scary stuff. It sounds like these guys were experienced and taking the correct steps to stay safe. I've never been in the back country but I've been thinking of trying it. How can a rookie stay safe and make good decisions if people as experienced as this got caught?
> 
> Finally, what are some good avalanche training sites to get the basics? I rode the lift with some ski patrol that were going to do avalanche control at Crested Butte and found the conversation interesting. I'd like to learn more about it.


Terrain choice. Stick to terrain than has no to low probability of sliding until you have a better understanding of how a snowpack behaves. Such terrain exists and is plenty fun but is probably not worth turing on the go pro for.

Read Bruce Trempers Staying Alive in Avalanche Terrain and be ready to read weather and avy reports every day for 6 months out of the year. A third of you brain will be dedicated completely to snow


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## killclimbz (Aug 10, 2007)

There is a fund set up to help Ian's family. He leaves behind his fiance and a young daughter. I highly recommend donating to the cause. They are going to need far more help than any amount of money will provide, but we can make it a little easier for them.

Fund for Madelyn | Indiegogo

I am sure more fundraising pages and such will be coming. I will post them as they become available.


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## BFBF (Jan 15, 2012)

"If you're in the mountains in the mountains and you're in the backcountry, you're putting yourself at risk....and No one is above the law" - Jeremy Jones.

Condolences to anyone touched or involved with this disaster.


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## killclimbz (Aug 10, 2007)

Mike Bennett, one of the first on scene has an article on Lou Dawson's blog about what happened. 

You can read it here: Sheep Creek Avalanche — Press Release from First Responder Mike Mike Bennett - The Backcountry Skiing Blog


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## blunted_nose (Apr 26, 2012)

How exactly was this triggered?

Can you trigger an avy below tree line? 

Is there a safe area where you can skin but isnt avy dangerous? 

I imagine open faces are most common?


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## neni (Dec 24, 2012)

Yes Snowolf, you're right, in that way, it is a wake up call. Was rethinking all our runs this season. Did we ALWAYS stay careful? Did we ALWAYS choose the safest run, not in the slightest seduction to take a nicer one? Was it luck? Keeps me thinking... I'm almost glad now that the season's over. These reports make me very sad... All these other negligible gear questions (also of me) become so insignificant in the shadow of such a tragedy


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## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

blunted_nose said:


> How exactly was this triggered?
> 
> Can you trigger an avy below tree line?
> 
> ...


We'll have to wait for the full CAIC report to get the details.

Most skin tracks are in safe areas, but don't rely on a skin track to tell you it's safe. 

Avy's can most certainly be triggered and occur below treeline.


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## killclimbz (Aug 10, 2007)

blunted_nose said:


> How exactly was this triggered?
> 
> Can you trigger an avy below tree line?
> 
> ...


It was triggered from below by the group caught.

Yes there are safe zones you can travel in.

Avalanches can happen in any terrain. All you need is a slope that can slide, a slab on top of a weak layer, and a trigger. Most commonly known as you. 

If you really want to know more I would suggest looking through the backcountry forum on this site and asking questions in some of those threads. Or starting your own. This is not really the place to get into details about what you should be looking out for in the backcountry.


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## blunted_nose (Apr 26, 2012)

Were they wearing an airbag system>?


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## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

blunted_nose said:


> Were they wearing an airbag system>?


I _think_ at least one of them was. If they triggered this thing low in the path, it may not have mattered. Hell, they may not have even had time to deploy it.


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## killclimbz (Aug 10, 2007)

I know that when I am hiking up for a run, I rarely have my airbag in deploy mode. There is always the chance you can accidentally set it off. So the handle is secured and I often don't have the thong strap attached to the waist belt. The thong is a thin strong piece of webbing that is used much like a leg loop on a climbing harness. This is too make sure the pack doesn't get ripped off. The waist belt has a climbing like harness closure. I don't think this group thought they were under serious exposure at the time of this accident. The Sheep Creek drainage itself sounded like it was a concern. They probably didn't think the slope above them was going to break 600 ft wide. This is all conjecture. I was not there. So I could be completely off. 

Second, if you read the accounts, it is pretty clear they were strained through trees. An airbag is probably not going to survive that. They work much better in open terrain than in terrain with obstacles.

At least one of them did have an airbag. I do not know if it was deployed.


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## lernr (Feb 3, 2012)

Thanks for linking Mike's write-up, Killz.

Just saw the airbag post - yes, I also never use all the belts on my ABS going up. Food for thought... But I do attach the handle, the velcro holster seems to do a good job to prevent accidental deployments.


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## killclimbz (Aug 10, 2007)

It does depend on the one you have. ABS uses the velcro strap to secure it, mine is an RAS system and the handle is zipped up in my shoulder strap when not in use mode. Either would be hard (impossible in my case) to deploy when secured in their own fashion if caught in an avalanche


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## ETM (Aug 11, 2009)

I think an airbag will work well if you are at the crown of the avalanche and go with the flow. Standing beneath it as the chunks of snow come hurtling at you, an airbag wont do much to save you.


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## lernr (Feb 3, 2012)

^ We're just speculating here.

The only survivor at Stevens last year was hit by the avalanche while waiting her friends, in the trees. Wasn't at the bottom, but definitely not at the crown either. She managed to deploy. I think it may help to deploy even at the bottom - if just to create some cushion and space around you... 

Mods - maybe we do need another thread on this, please move if needed


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## BurtonAvenger (Aug 14, 2007)

I put some thoughts down on this but it hits so close to home I don't think I'll ever be able to convey what I'm thinking. Like I said earlier we lost some great people and the event is a tragedy. Let this serve as either a wake up call or a reminder to just be cautious out there, I know I've slacked and been on the lucky side to come home. I won't let that complacency ever effect me again.

Beyond Boundaries: The Loveland Pass Avalanche «


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## DrnknZag (Feb 7, 2010)

Mike is an acquaintance of mine from my Colorado trip this year, him and Gary were the first two I thought of when I heard about this accident. I feared the worst when I heard one who died was a local Jones rep (I knew Mike was a Jones rep). His first hand account is pretty hair raising. I hope I never have to be in his position.

Between this slide and the one near Vail Pass earlier, I'd be scared shitless to be out in the CO backcountry right now. How ridiculously big and DEEP both went shows that deep slab instability. Everyone wants that late season pow day, but that heavy spring pow on top of everything puts a lot of stress on those weak buried layers. Two weeks ago I found myself thinking that we dodged the big bullet this year, no Tunnel Creek-like incident, no avy deaths here in WA. In two weekends between WA and CO, that all changed.


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## BurtonAvenger (Aug 14, 2007)

Transworld Biz just put a little something up on the other avalanche on Vail Pass. Memorial Service For Vail Pass Avalanche Victim & Industry Member Mark McCarron This Thursday | TransWorld Business


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## killclimbz (Aug 10, 2007)

Our executive Director Shan Sethna and Lead Avalanche Instructor Justin Peacock have put down some thoughts about this tragic accident and how we can collectively move forward. 

http://berthoudpass.org/2013/04/24/on-working-and-learning-together/


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## killclimbz (Aug 10, 2007)

CAIC's report on the accident is up.

https://avalanche.state.co.us/acc/acc_report.php?accfm=inv&acc_id=505&view=public


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## ETM (Aug 11, 2009)

killclimbz said:


> CAIC's report on the accident is up.
> 
> https://avalanche.state.co.us/acc/acc_report.php?accfm=inv&acc_id=505&view=public


That was a chilling read.


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## Ken2234 (Feb 15, 2013)

Very Sad :sad: . My thoughts and prayers go out to the victims family's and friends. Its a dangerous sport.


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## snowklinger (Aug 30, 2011)

Just read this blog, very insightful, good pictures and diagrams.

Site Visit — Sheep Creek Avalanche near Loveland Pass - The Backcountry Skiing Blog


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## CassMT (Mar 14, 2013)

wow, that article was super-critical of the group's decisions that day...seems it will always remain a mystery why they chose to go the way they did, maybe the survivor will be able to eventually shed some light


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## snowklinger (Aug 30, 2011)

CassMT said:


> wow, that article was super-critical of the group's decisions that day...seems it will always remain a mystery why they chose to go the way they did, maybe the survivor will be able to eventually shed some light


As critical as it was, it seemed to be pretty sympathetic. It is so easy to make small mistakes and have just 1 kill you. I feel that the blogger was trying to not allow sympathy to affect his objective study of the event, which was really comprehensive imo. :dunno:


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## CassMT (Mar 14, 2013)

totally agree, objective analysis, i think it was really well done, he seemed genuinely mystified why they went the way they did, and where they were planning to go from there....some of the comments to the blog were very good too


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## killclimbz (Aug 10, 2007)

Quite frankly I think Lou was being abrasive, condescending, and a bit of an asshole with this one. He certainly was not that judgmental of the Stevens Pass or Steve Romeo incidents. The big difference? Skiers is those accidents. Granted Lou considered Steve Romeo a peer. 

I respect Lou and he has been doing the backcountry game for longer than just about anyone I know. I have one partner who has maybe been around as long as Lou. Lou also has a dream tick list of descents he has done. I was glad for analysis, but I also find that a lot of it is maybe not so spot on. The so called safe path. Not 100% sure of that. Not sure on being in danger right out the car door either. S&R used that same route in mass for the rescue. S&R generally does not expose their team members to dangerous situations. 

There is no question that going out on that ridge was a bad choice. I am stumped by it myself. Before this event happened I was super wary of getting on terrain near and above treeline with large consequence. Made the call a week earlier to not go for the Silver on Buffalo because of snow fall and consequence. Then Harrison went huge, then the Vail pass accident. Certainly the warning was there that we were back to mid winter and lines that could big were going big. So no idea why a terrain trap like that would be chosen, and I think that has stumped Lou too. It just seems like a bit of that snowboarder contempt from the old days seeped through on two of his blogs. Maybe it is just frustration from so many horrible accidents that were completely avoidable in the last two seasons. 

Yes there is a lot to be learned from his posts. I just really wish he had of done a classier job presenting this. Lou is better than this.


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## snowklinger (Aug 30, 2011)

killclimbz said:


> Quite frankly I think Lou was being abrasive, condescending, and a bit of an asshole with this one. He certainly was not that judgmental of the Stevens Pass or Steve Romeo incidents. The big difference? Skiers is those accidents. Granted Lou considered Steve Romeo a peer.
> 
> I respect Lou and he has been doing the backcountry game for longer than just about anyone I know. I have one partner who has maybe been around as long as Lou. Lou also has a dream tick list of descents he has done. I was glad for analysis, but I also find that a lot of it is maybe not so spot on. The so called safe path. Not 100% sure of that. Not sure on being in danger right out the car door either. S&R used that same route in mass for the rescue. S&R generally does not expose their team members to dangerous situations.
> 
> ...


I was hoping for your input on this one as I'm pretty removed from the real players in the game. Still this happens within view of my local and all of this CO and UT tragedy lately....is just FUCK! 

I spent about an hour reading through all the comments and his replies and didn't get through it all.

ty sir.


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## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

I was kind of scratching my head about his "safe route" too. He certainly knows better than me, but he's still pretty damned exposed where he's exiting the trees and as to his route across the slope...

All I know is that if you told me that slope was gonna be bombed and you asked me if I felt safe standing there, not sure I'd be so confident about my choice at that time.


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## killclimbz (Aug 10, 2007)

One of the things I do know is that spot might be about the only one that makes sense to skin in from. Most of the terrain on that side of the pass is better traveled to by booting it. You have to go way out and drop a line that would require you to skin back out to get to the pass proper. Such as Grizzly Gulch. For a splitfest, it just doesn't help. Dry Gulch and Herman Gulch are better touring spots but they have their problems too. 

A big problem is that the forest service won't let you run something like that on their land. So by using the closed ski area lot they were able to bypass problems with the fs of having tables and logos out. Otherwise this could of been held at a place like Bert. While people still get killed there, it is much harder to set off a slide of this magnitude and you would have to try really hard to expose 6 to that sort of danger on the up. I really wish the fs would change their rules a bit so that a free event like this could happen.


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## snowklinger (Aug 30, 2011)

killclimbz said:


> I really wish the fs would change their rules a bit so that a free event like this could happen.


but all the hippies in boulder would get upset:dunno:

Backcountry travel is such an issue in teh state to be fair tho, and the number of people heading out is just increasing constantly. Many people just don't give a fuck and can't wait to get out there and trash everything. Regardless of the special interest tree huggers and whatnot, its gotta be a real tightrope for the FS. Not to mention our ecosystem as a whole seems pretty fragile lately between beetlekill and drought (goddamn mountain lions and bears seem to be doing fine :laugh.


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## killclimbz (Aug 10, 2007)

Oh if you have a permit, then you have none of those issues. You can get people together, but if you have so much as a vehicle with the company emblem on it in the parking lot, you are running afoul of forest service rules. They rarely enforce that but when it's convenient for them they do.


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## killclimbz (Aug 10, 2007)

A good article about the accident on Outside Online.


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## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

IMO, one of the scariest and most sobering parts of this story is the fact that two of the deceased were only buried 2-3 feet deep and the survivor, though not fully buried, was unable to self extract.

This really hammers home the point that self rescue simply cannot be considered as a possibility when considering avalanches. These poor guys were only buried in the neighborhood of 2 feet deep and they were absolutely helpless.


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## Oldman (Mar 7, 2012)

Having read this entire thread and all of the similar material relating to the Tunnel Creek tragedy, none of us is in a position to answer the question "why?"

There is a survivor from this horrific event and only he can provide some insight into the "why?" of what they did. Perhaps in time he will have the confidence to shed light on the incident, but no doubt he is fully aware of the scrutiny he is / will be under. This man is going to need a lot of love and support to work his way through this experience.

As a child, my father would often ask me this question;

"If I do this, what could possibly happen?

We do not need to be looking for the perfect line for a potentially fatal event. Maybe you were on a groomer run and was hoping for a speed run. Did you check to make sure all was clear before hitting that kicker? Should I be pushing that very yellow, now red light? Six beers later, should I be behind the wheel? Will the next car see me if I step out from in front of this bus?

One does not need be on a mountain side for tragedy to pay a visit.

We should strive to live life to the fullest each and every day for ourselves, our loved ones and all of those around us. As a group of enthusiasts, we need to be diligent every time we encounter a situation that has potentially dire results.

My condolences to the family and friends of the deceased. May your loved ones rest in peace.


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## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

We make decisions everyday that could potentially kill us. People make far dumber decisions in the backcountry time and time again and not only live to tell about it but don't even realize that what they're doing is stupid.

It only takes one mistake. Not just in the backcountry, but in many situations we find ourselves in everyday - like your yellow light example.


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