# Struggling with edge control on a new board.. Is it me? The board? The snow?



## Donutz (May 12, 2010)

Your big problem is going to be that there are multiple possible reasons for the issues you're facing. 

First, let's start with the board. A board can make a huge difference. You should watch some of Angry Snowboarder's board reviews to get an idea of how much they can vary. For instance, you mentioned bombing at speed. Some boards are great for that, some just completely suck the hairy root. A soft board with too little damping, at speed, will turn into a twisting, bouncing death trap. A good, solid, damp all-mountain board, on the other hand, will cut right through everything and will feel like being on a rail (the train kind, not the park kind).

For turning, same thing. I currently have six boards, and I've had as many as nine at a time (yeah, yeah, poke fun, go ahead). They all behave differently under any particular conditions. My Lib Tech E Jack Knife, for instance, is bar none my best ice-and-hardpack performer. That's mostly because of magnetraction. The Heritage is the weakest in those conditions, but the Heritage is way better in deep snow.


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## Grunky (Mar 21, 2019)

+1 with @Donutz and also check if the edges are really sharp on the new board.
On ice you want your edges really really sharp....

Depending on the profile of the board, it can be less or more noticeable.


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## Donutz (May 12, 2010)

Now, technique.

Lemme say up front that your best bet is to buy a 360 camera and a selfie stick and record yourself. Or get a friend to do it, which is even better. Watching your technique from the outside will almost certainly expose a whole bunch of weaknesses.

But regarding the carving-in-chunder question, I've been working on that issue for years. I could never figure out how other people could go down steep runs, doing smooth S turns, without bouncing all over the place. Just in the last couple of years, I've started to really figure it out. And it's all technique. All.

So here's some guesses about your technique.

First, you're probably doing deep but large C turns, which means you are turning past the point of 45 degrees to the fall line. That's always going to put excess pressure on your edges. The closer you get to 90 degrees, the worse it'll get.

Second, if you're doing C turns, they're probably too big. C turns need to be short and tight. If you want to do big turns, make them S turns--more downhill, less sideways.

Third, never, never, never brake at the bottom of a turn. That'll bounce you over every bump and free your edge. If you need to scrub speed, do it at the top of the turn, just when you're coming onto your downhill edge and turning down into the fall line. Skiers do this all the time, and it's really obvious on skis. They scrub all their speed at the top of the turn, and are carving as much as possible the rest of the turn.

Fourth, your form sucks. Sorry, that's an assumption, but it's a pretty reasonable one. Most people, unless they've had a lesson, are doing it wrong. The most common error is the butt-out straight-legged L shaped stance, both on heelsides and toesides. Neither works, but on toesides it'll kill you. There are youtube videos you can watch, but the TLDR version is: on heelsides, bend your knees and make like you're trying to sit down. On toesides, push forward with your knees _and keep your hips forward,_ as if you're trying to hump the snow. In both cases, try to keep your visual horizon level so your upper body stays upright.

Fifth, don't stay too long on one or the other edge. Start planning another turn before you're even out of the current one. Otherwise you just end up in a long slide while you try to get your balance back.

Whew. That's a lot. But start by videoing yourself. Go from there.


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## drblast (Feb 28, 2017)

vectoranalysis said:


> When I video myself, my legs and hips are doing what they should, though I can see my back end slide around - it looks like I'm "ruddering" to a viewer, but as the person driving and who kicked that habit in season 2, I can tell you I'm not _actively_ doing it


If you have video post it and we'll tell you what's going on. Everything else will be kind of a guess.


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## Kijima (Mar 3, 2019)

Stiff boards are hard to ride.


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## BXNoob (Mar 20, 2020)

Like @Kijima said. Its not abnormal to struggle for 10 days when you’re riding a new kind of board and not just a different deck. You went from flat/rocker to camber under foot. My guess is, you didn’t have to work at all to turn with the old stick and you expect the new one to be as « docile ». But it won’t be. You need to bend the board. If you don’t, you won’t be utilizing the whole edge so it will « wash out », especially on tricky surface. Try to be more dynamic while riding. Also, take a lesson ! It is not the board nor the tuning.


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## Kijima (Mar 3, 2019)

Try using your knees to make the board flex, on a toe turn pull your knees together and see if that helps things.
If it does help it proves that you are struggling to flex the board which is not uncommon. Stiff boards plow through chopped up snow very well but they are never easy to handle


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## wrathfuldeity (Oct 5, 2007)

I suspect that you are not dynamic enough, your timing is latent...thus end up in the backseat...thus too traverse and washing out.


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## drblast (Feb 28, 2017)

vectoranalysis said:


> I don't want to believe my old board would have been masking such bad technique so well that it'd show up so disruptively now - has that happened to anyone else?


This could very well be the case, especially if you're not going very fast. It's kind of like a stuntman jumping from one roof to the next - a timid stuntman trying to see if he can _just_ make it to the next roof is bad news. Same for riding in hard conditions - you can go very slow and not fall, or you can charge hard and not fall. There's not much in between that, and those are two _completely_ different types of riding.

Contrary to what one might think, in order to ride aggressively, in control, and fast, you have to be very relaxed. You have to be able to generate enough power and speed so that the tips and edges of your camber board dig in to hardpack, and you have to have the confidence to trust that the board won't let go.

You can be doing everything right but be tense and stiff. I've watched people get into the "correct" body position and then try to maintain that like a statue...then fall and say "but my knees _were_ bent!" When we say "you have to bend your knees" we mean "you have to make your legs flexible so your legs can move up and down with the terrain."

I've been riding switch more than regular this season and I'm already a decent switch rider, I can carve and go probably about 80% of my top speed. I've been riding for over 20 years, so like you, I think I know what to do. But knowing and doing are two different things, and it is a huge struggle to ride switch as comfortably as regular. I've put in about 5 days of pure switch riding this season so far, and I'm improving but I still make mistakes and find myself off balance.

Now let's talk about camber. My wife started on a camber board but her riding significantly improved after she got a rocker board. It was that catch-free confidence boost she needed to start going faster. When she hit the speed limit for the rocker board, she got a Twin Sister and her riding showed an _immediate_ improvement in form. She didn't notice it at all - the board just felt better to her - but it was so obvious to me just watching her ride. Later, she got a full camber board and I saw another improvement in her riding. Same thing for both my daughters.

Camber is more difficult to ride at slow speed and in hard snow conditions. You have to know what you're doing, and it has to be second nature. If you are timid or scared of falling it's a downward spiral because you'll tense up, the board will feel less stable because _you'll_ feel less stable, you'll fall or slip and lose confidence...etc. etc. Flat or rocker boards cover up those moments because they are more forgiving, so you won't slip and fall as much and you'll have more confidence in your board.

There is a learning curve here that icy northeast conditions just make that much harder. Maybe practice going faster in better snow conditions and bring your rocker board for ice until you're more comfortable at speed.


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## mjayvee (Nov 18, 2015)

If you are not already practicing Yoga, I would also recommend that. Snowboarding is much more fluid when you have flexibility and flow.


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## wrathfuldeity (Oct 5, 2007)

Like what DrBlast notes. If ur tense and timid, you are too slow and stiff...and riding 20 yards behind where you have already been. Being relaxed and confident you are quicker and you can ride 20 yards in front of you and let your body handle what you are riding over in the moment. Its really a mind game of having an aggressive attitude, mentally riding 20-50 yards infront of yourself and just trusting the board and your body to handle whatever is happening...because if you are thinking about what is happening "now" under your board...you is waaay too late and slow. Its the same as driving a car...you want to drive 1/4-1/2 mile in front of where you are...also try driving your car with locked elbows...same as riding straight legged.


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## vectoranalysis (Jan 19, 2021)

Hi guys. So, first, I wanted to come back in to this thread to say *thanks* for all of the feedback above. I really appreciated it and I had every intention of following up here during the season to respond and share more as I kept feeling out the issues... someone here has to have the ah-ha I need to make this work! That said, life got away from me and every time I hit the slopes I started to feel like maybe things were turning a corner so I never did get back here to update. But, with the whole season in the rear view and now I'm starting to think about the upcoming winter, I'm back to reflecting and wondering how best to move forward.

In a nutshell, I rode 22 days last season and the Twin Sister just never felt right. I tinkered with my stance and setback, highbacks, etc. I watched a million youtube videos. I made a conscious effort every time I went out to re-commit to good form, technique, etc. Some days felt better than others and frankly in hindsight I can say the better days were always the days with highest friction (fresh or warm/soft snow) and worst when it was icy or low-friction hardpack. I have to think even if this board was revealing some level of bad form that my old board disguised, after 22 days of working on it, I would expect to have felt some improvement?

I know folks are gonna tell me to get a private lesson and I would have liked to last season, but logistics and schedules just didn't work out. Maybe this year. I've had a lesson back when I first started and I've consumed every youtube tutorial known to man at this point. I could probably recite them from memory. I know what my body is "supposed" to do and have worked consciously at it, every time I ride, usually setting a specific intention of some kind or another each day out. I study every rider I see from the lift and can probably break down their riding better than my own at this point. Sigh!

Long story short, I'm hemming and hawing over whether to enter the season this year with the Jones undermining my confidence but committing to make it work because, by all accounts, it "should" be a great board for me... or abandon ship and try something else.

I'm still very much intrigued by a camber or camber hybrid for the benefits it's supposed to confer - edge control, carving, etc. With the Jones, I never had a single issue with edges catching, the camrock profile there never gave me any problem even from day 1, transitioning from my previous (flat/rocker) board. And one of my biggest wishes was for more stability at speed, and the Jones really delivered there - I don't want to sacrifice that. On the "good" days last year, I really loved how it felt when I could just open up and fly, carve, and not feel every last bump and twist.. the length and torsional stability on the Jones felt awesome. Those moments were few and far between but they were incredible. But I hated feeling completely at the mercy of the conditions as I did all season long... it was confidence-wrecking.

It's hard for me to convey the way I felt on the Jones all season, beyond what I expressed in the original post, but here's some video to illustrate, since a few folks asked for it.

This is me struggling on the Jones at some point last season:

Jones sliding.mov

Jones sliding 2.mov

Look how much my back leg sweeps around! It was heartbreaking to see that video of myself since it's *not* what I looked like the previous two seasons. I _know_ the automatic reply to this will be "don't rudder like that" and "don't twist your torso"! But - please know I am not actively ruddering with that back leg! And I know how to keep my torso from rotating... My body hated how that felt all season. It was almost impossible not to. What's happening is that I feel zero edge bite on that back end and feel the board windshield wipering, so the dynamic you see is the effect of that and my body fighting to get some purchase. I find the board over-rotating (it does this both directions, heel and toe equally), and then I have to react to that, and it becomes a mess instead of a nice smooth curve. This also happens when I'm not making tight turns like in the videos - for example in more ideal times, I'm not really trying to turn that much anyway, I'm letting the board drive and pointed more down hill with just smaller more subtle back and forth weight shifts - but this season I never got to enjoy that as much as years past. Even on the Jones if I'm just flying relatively straight forward/downhill but following a very subtle turn in the trail, in all but the highest friction scenarios I still find the board "sliding" out from under me (toe or heel equally depending on which way the turn is going)... there's less back end rotation in that scenario but in that case I'm more likely to simply lose the edge and land on my stomach (when on toe edge) or the opposite on heel. It truly feels like the edges are made of teflon. It's so weird.

I have worked So. Freaking. Hard. on all of the mechanics that help get the board up on edge, leaning hard into my boots with knees bent/hips forward/upright back on toe side and the same but heel side on the reverse. It doesn't help! (Sometimes I wonder if my boots being older/soft is contributing by making it harder to transfer the lean and pull my board up on edge but - seems like that would affect more toe side than heel since the highback takes care of that on heel side if that were true. Either way I'm due for new boots).

For comparison, here's a video of me from the previous year going down a relatively steep trail on my old board, and I was _just_ getting to the point where I could navigate this one so I'm pretty tentative but I'm able to control the edges just fine...

Rome on Smith.MOV

And here's me going down the same trail with the Jones this past year (I know it's not quite apples to apples with the different angle but you can still see how much I'm overrotating unintentionally...)

Jones on Smith.mov

I can feel the Jones _wants _to charge - and I truly _want _to ride it that way. Maybe this board is just too much for me? I watch these videos and know it looks like I'm forcing tight turns for speed control out of fear, but when I'm riding that's not how it feels and I'm not panicking at the pick up of speed - it basically just "feels" like there's no edge and shit is sliding everywhere.

At one point in the season I did get the board tuned. The next day out was possibly the best day of the season for me, it felt amazing and I thought all my problems had been solved. But, they crept back in over the subsequent days, and so I think that might also have just been a coincidence in the day happened to be good conditions too. I continued to struggle with this "no edge" feeling, to varying degrees, through the very last day.

Why is this happening? Is it truly something in the design of the board that just isn't a good match for my body / form / experience level? Do I need to keep moving my bindings around? (I thought maybe my rear foot isn't in the right spot for optimal pressure? But I did move them a bit and never felt it helped. I had started off at reference stance anyway). I just need a single independent variable here so I can respond and solve.. the detective work is killing me.

I will also note that I'm on the heavy end for this board. My old board was a 149. I weigh 160-165lbs, at 5'5". I really liked the 149 on my old board (I have a long torso and short legs for my height so I found longer sizes were harder for me starting out because I do keep my bindings a tad closer together than average with my short legs). When I bought the Jones I hemmed and hawed between 149 and 152 but figured I'd stick with what I had and liked and most people I asked said it wouldn't make a huge difference. Would being too heavy for the 149 make this kind of difference? Wouldn't being heavier mean better pressure/edge? Or am I overpowering the board so it washes out? Give me the logic here. Would a 152 be noticeably different anyway or would I need to add more than 3 cm for that to matter?

Thinking about that also got me revisiting all the specs, and it looks like the effective edge on my old board (thanks to it being flat/rocker) was *115*. The Jones (same overall length board at 149) is listed with effective edge of *111 *which I was surprised to note.. Would _that _account for the feeling of too little edge and no bite? Can a couple cm make that big of a difference?

Some of that had me wondering if I should just admit defeat with the Jones and try a different board this season.

So, I'm not really sure what to do. I've been daydreaming about other boards. I've been comparing a lot of women's boards that get talked about in the same sentence as the Twin Sister as solid all mountain boards, like the Hel Yes and etc. I don't really have an easy way to demo specific boards but I wish I could see what the Twin Sister 152 feels like compared to the 149 and if that makes a difference.. or to try the Hel Yes which I see in a lot of reviews with specific reference to its great edge control even in the iciest conditions (compared to the Twin Sister that I sometimes described as having the same, and other times described as being being a bit squirrely on ice and hardpack). I'm also curious about the Hel Yes vs. Hello, (I guess the Hello is pretty much the Hel Yes but slightly softer flex.. I ride mostly groomed resort and while I want to be able to get into some trees I don't see that kind of terrain more than once or twice a year anyway).

I could get a Hel Yes with specs very similar to the Twin Sister but at a 152 with 115 effective edge...

Sigh. A lot to read, but if anyone slogs through it all and has any words of wisdom, I'm all ears. Thanks!

(edited to fix video links)


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## BoardieK (Dec 21, 2015)

Wow, longest and best follow up by a first poster EVER!


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## Rip154 (Sep 23, 2017)

Some freeride boards just feel like this, usually stiffer camrock or flat profiles with soft noses. It’s great for stable sliding turns in the steeps, but feels like a workout sometimes. Try to move the back foot back abit, at least centered on the inserts, and apply more pressure on it through the turn, initiation should be quick thanks to the soft nose. They focus on boards where you don’t have to lean back in powder, but for everything else you actually have to ride kinda heavy on the back foot.


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## Manicmouse (Apr 7, 2014)

BoardieK said:


> Wow, longest and best follow up by a first poster EVER!


@vectoranalysis you've set the gold standard. I'm impressed!

From watching your videos I don't think you need a stiff aggressive board at this stage in your progression. Stiff board are great for speed in those conditions and you're not really unleashing it.

You need to get lower and more dynamic. It's probably fear of speed that's holding you back, so lots of practice.


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## MountainMystic (Apr 24, 2019)

Manicmouse said:


> @vectoranalysis you've set the gold standard. I'm impressed!
> 
> From watching your videos I don't think you need a stiff aggressive board at this stage in your progression. Stiff board are great for speed in those conditions and you're not really unleashing it.
> 
> You need to get lower and more dynamic. It's probably fear of speed that's holding you back, so lots of practice.


Also *lessons*, preferably private ones. more exxy, but better bang for the buck because you have the instructor's complete attention.


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## neni (Dec 24, 2012)

OP, it's not the board, it's technique. (Or... the board doesn't match what you aim to ride. If you WANT to ride like in the videos, i.e. cruising with minimal leg effort, then get a different board.) But if you want to charge, learn to be in control also at speed, you need to begin to ride dynamically. Lower in your knees, pushing the edge, putting some power in your turns.

Your videos show a very passive way of riding. Straight legs. No loading, no edging. No real turn initiation. While the old soft board was ok with that passive way, the new stiffer one isn't. Since you don't ride the board, the board rides with you. You would have to bend the board, tilt it, to get the edge gripping, but as you don't, the edge slides.

You asked for the logic Put your board on a carpet and look at the edge. In order to make a nice cut turn, the edge needs to have the radius of that intended turn. Now tilt the board. Look what happens to the edge. Right, it's cambered and not in a turn radius. When you rudder (i.e. force) a board into a turn with the edge NOT bent into that turn radius, this leads to washing out because the edge cannot grip. How could it? It's not bent. Now put pressure on the bindings. Look what happens to the edge: the board begins to bend the camber, the edge bends into a radius where a turn becomes physically possible. The more you bend the board, the tighter the radius. Bending happens from putting power on the board. From muscle force and movement (speed+ centrifugal force). Now: that's your job. You have to bend the board/edge into exactly the radius which you want to turn it. That job means work, leg work. And timing. The stiffer the board, the harder the work.

You may see fast riders with a very loose looking style which may appear that they don't put much effort into riding: they do. It's hard leg work to ride in low loose knees 

No tinkering with highbacks, getting a longer/shorter board etc. will help as long as your body is that passive. I'd strongly recommend to get a private lesson. You seem very eager to learn, but have hit a plateau where you need help. When an instructor gets you to the point that it clicks on your side how you can actively use your knees, your riding experience will make a huge jump. Would be well invested.


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## lbs123 (Jan 24, 2017)

I understand this can be quite frustrating. Looking at your videos, neither of those seem like the most favorable conditions to learn carving. Either too steep terrain or too hard snow (judging by the edging sound). I'd sugget that you first only try to carve when the conditions are spot on - mellow run with softer snow (but not too soft). Your goal should be to get that sensation of what it feels like riding the edge (riding the board, like Neni described above) and transition to another edge without skidding the turn in between. You can do this just by rolling board from one edge to another while going straight - see how Kevin does that here at 1:35:


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## vectoranalysis (Jan 19, 2021)

Manicmouse said:


> You need to get lower and more dynamic. It's probably fear of speed that's holding you back, so lots of practice.


I know this is how those videos look, and obviously I'm not really going _fast_ even on a good day, (I think "fast" for me is, like, getting over 30mph haha)... but I'm not actively trying to bleed speed in these videos, if that makes sense. Like, the feeling is - if I pointed the board straight down the mountain, realistically I'm not gonna flatbase straight down, so you go "straight" by making very subtle shifts from toe to heel edge back and forth and the path you carve is like a super stretched out "s" that is almost an "I" or as close to it as possible. That's what most of my runs look like when I'm not struggling like these videos. But on low friction/icy days, even that movement becomes fraught. A relatively flat area of trail will give me as much trouble as steeper terrain if I have any amount of speed and make even the very slightest turn - my board just slides out from under me. If anyone here ice skates, it feels like when you need to get your skates sharpened and you lose an edge. But obviously that's (sharp edges) not the issue here. Something's preventing me from getting the board to be on the right angle, and have the right edge contact. And after 20+ days practicing, I'm at a loss and my confidence (and dare I say enjoyment) is kinda gone. 



neni said:


> Your videos show a very passive way of riding. Straight legs. No loading, no edging. No real turn initiation. While the old soft board was ok with that passive way, the new stiffer one isn't. Since you don't ride the board, the board rides with you. You would have to bend the board, tilt it, to get the edge gripping, but as you don't, the edge slides.


Can you help me understand what you mean by *"no turn initiation?"* I totally get the feedback re: being more dynamic and there were days where I was able to really work on sitting lower and being more dynamic (and honestly they just felt like I was "doing too much", like "cosplaying a snowboarder" and it didn't improve my riding, but I can certainly continue to work and improve on that for sure) and I know in these videos you can see how I struggle to get the board on enough edge to get good bite, but in my past few seasons, I've always felt pretty confident about leaning into the front leg, leading with the shoulder, the weight shifts in the feet and whatnot, letting the board ride out the full turn, etc. Obviously that's not on display here (wish I had some older videos to compare....) But that's what is really driving me nuts in riding this board - everything people coach me to do, or think about, or cues, are all things I am doing/trying. And.. it's not working..?

Also, when you say *"bend the board, tilt it" *-- this is what I need to understand better. I get this, cognitively. It's the crux of the issue! But I need to figure out why it's not happening for my body. I understand what all the exercises and cues say to do. I have old videos of me on my old board with super visible tilt on the board, sitting super low, etc... I just can't seem to translate the past experience and all the coaching I've absorbed into on-this-board riding. Why can't my body successfully get this board to make the right contact with the ground? This shouldn't take someone 20+ days of practice to even begin to unlock, right? That's why I keep hoping for some magic cue... 



neni said:


> You asked for the logic Put your board on a carpet and look at the edge. In order to make a nice cut turn, the edge needs to have the radius of that intended turn. Now tilt the board. Look what happens to the edge. Right, it's cambered and not in a turn radius. Rudders a board into a turn with the edge NOT bent into that turn radius leads to washing out because the edge cannot grip. How could it? It's not bent. Now put pressure on the bindings. Look what happens to the edge: the board begins to bend the camber, the edge bends into a radius where a turn becomes physically possible. The more you bend the board, the tighter the radius. Bending happens from putting power on the board. From muscle force and movement (speed+ centrifugal force). Now: that's your job. You have to bend the board/edge into exactly the radius which you want to turn it. That job means work, leg work. And timing. The stiffer the board, the harder the work.


I definitely understand the concept re: getting up on edge. I don't have videos of this from years past, but the last two seasons I definitely unlocked an understanding of weight transfer, edges, etc. I understand and feel very confident in downweighting, upweighting, leaning/pushing into the board, etc.. and have been able to enjoy plenty of nice long carved runs (when the conditions were right and the local hill was empty), with that nice single track behind me... so that's what makes this so frustrating for me. I took a giant leap backwards on this board and I can't figure out if it's a futile effort to think I will be able to unlock what's holding me back or if I should just give up and get a different board... I don't want to be a quitter if this is something I need to progress in my riding.

I had the experience multiple times this season where I felt like I had the board at an angle similar to what I would have had on my old board, and was still getting no bite. Would a board like the Twin Sister (either because of the stiffness, or camber or etc) require it to be _more_ on edge (i.e. at _larger_ angle with the ground) before it bites/catches compared to another board? For example if on my old board I had the board tilted up at a 40degree angle with the ground and felt good bite and control, would my current board somehow need to be at 50degrees or more to get the same bite? Does that make sense? I know it was a struggle to _get_ the Jones up on edge, for me but working on it for 20+ days, you'd think I'd have started to develop that skill? I am plenty strong, and I am plenty flexible, so I know this more a limitation of some form or technique nuance than sheer strength or mobility. I actually found especially early in the season, I was totally wrecking my back leg quad and calf and would realize at the end of the day how fatigued it was because I had taken to unconsciously super actively _pushing_ down through that leg to try to get the edge contact I needed (which was something I had never done or experienced in years past)... but I know (and the ensuing leg fatigue reinforced), _pushing_ down through the calves in a way that kinda keeps you on toes/balls of feet is _not_ the way to do it and I didn't want that to keep happening.. so I made some shifts to focus on leaning even harder into my boot tongues on toeside, really using my weight to pull the board up toeside, (and the opposite on heelside), and no matter how much I would bend my knees or lean and commit into it, it just didn't seem to help very much. Maybe I just need to keep working on it? Does this take most people more than a season to figure out?

This is why I'm so thrown. Everyone has such good thoughtful feedback but so far it's not translating. It's so demoralizing. Does this literally just boil down to the *board being too stiff for me? *If that's the case, is the solution simply to abandon ship and grab a new board with similar specs but softer flex? How can I try to keep the level of stability I wanted compared to the old board but with softer flex - will the camber (vs flat/rocker) take care of that? I specifically loved having less torsional flex on the Jones compared to the old board, and it was so nice to no longer feel every last bump and to not feel it get so squirrely whenever I got above 25mph, haha. Can I still achieve that on a board that isn't as stiff as the Twin Sister? If so, any suggestions? The Arbor Veda and Yes Hello both kinda fit that general spec...

I'll definitely be aiming to do a private lesson first thing this year but I'm trying to get out of my head and feel committed specifically to either sticking it out with the Jones vs. trying something else... and neither option feels good to me. Either way, I really appreciate the added thoughts & suggestions so far. I'm sure you guys are sick of my wall-of-text posts so I'll let you know what happens later this year...


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## drblast (Feb 28, 2017)

I'm gonna be the lone voice here saying, yes, the problem is the board. (It's also you - your technique does need work.)

Everything everyone is saying about your riding is spot on, but a camrock board is super-forgiving and washy and that's working against you learning to do things the right way right now.

Get yourself on a traditional camber board and your riding will improve immediately and you'll feel the edge hold. At that point you'll have the confidence to go faster. After a season on a board like that you'll be able to ride anything, including the Twin Sister, much more competently. I don't think the Twin Sister is too stiff for you - I think it's too rockered.

Source: Wife and two daughters both looked exactly like you do on a Twin Sister, they all eventually got on camber boards and it was a night and day difference. Now they love riding the Twin Sister for doing spins and stuff but they also don't have trouble getting it on edge and riding more dynamically like you should be doing.


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## rayt100 (Aug 29, 2016)

Watch how to videos on Youtube. Here's some still frame grabs of an instructional video. I learn better visually.


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## rayt100 (Aug 29, 2016)

This is advanced but it's one of the better instructional videos I found. He really breaks down the mechanics and body position. If you look you'll find tons of instructional vid's. I think muscle memory and strength are keys to advancing. If you don't know whats happening you can't correct the problem.


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## NT.Thunder (Jan 4, 2020)

The thread below really changed how I ride, the improvement for me on an edge was incredible, it just seemed to click. There's a lot in there to digest but it's seriously worth reading.









Deep carving, Kijima method


Ok guys here goes. I offer this purely as a demonstration of how I get this job done, and a bit of an insight into how I think about snowboarding itself. I will try to upload pics and video in time. My stats are 40 years old, 191cm, 84kg, US10 burton boot, Rome Katana bindings and my own hand...




www.snowboardingforum.com





For me the other big improvements to my riding came from improving my offseason fitness, flexibility and core strength along with finding the right board for what I wanted to do and not what others told me I wanted to do. That last bit was important for me as for years I was riding g decks that others said were good decks based on their riding. This forum is super helpful for pointing you in the right direction on both gear and technique.

Enjoy it, don't sweat it and if you put in and work at it there's no doubt it'll just click one day and you won't look back.


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## neni (Dec 24, 2012)

vectoranalysis said:


> ...
> I just can't seem to translate the past experience and all the coaching I've absorbed into on-this-board riding. Why can't my body successfully get this board to make the right contact with the ground? This shouldn't take someone 20+ days of practice to even begin to unlock, right? That's why I keep hoping for some magic cue...


If an error is repeated 20 days, the error won't go away by magic but rather dig deep into your muscle memory . Bad habits combined with bad experience lead to timid riding which further increase eachother.

Just as an anecdote: I was doing the same error for about 10 years (i.e. 400 days of riding) which held me back from getting the real nice deep continuous carve I wanted to do. Repeating it the same way didn't make it better . Changing boards didn't make it better. Angles, stance, highback tinkering neither. And no, I didn't take a lesson, which, looking back, was foolish, because it was quite a tiny mistake I did. But one day in Japan - visiting a member of this forum who is putting loads of thoughts into riding/carving and has the ability to verbally express movements - it clicked when we were going through multiburst photos frame by frame, and discussing the movements. I needed that input/the discussion with someone external on the slope. I myself would probably have continued my wrong way for the next decade  Once that mistake was detected, I could adress it and improved immediately. The board was irrelevant. It was technique 

So... I'm sorry I cannot help via internet at this point. I would need to see life what you're doing at which very moment and discuss it life to find out what's the issue holding you back as you seem to have not had it before. (But did you really not have it or was the soft board covering I'll technique? Idk.)

Back leg fatigue is a hint of doing something wrong like being too much on back leg. (After a day of riding groomers, my front leg is tired, never the back one.) However, you mention that you concentrate on riding on front foot... so something is off. You're probably doing too much and too little at the same time but with different parts of the body.

That's where the instructor comes into play. There seems to be a gap between what you think you're doing and what you're doing. An instructor will see it and point out which - maybe small - adjustment you'd have to do. Book a lesson instead of looking for different boards first. If the lesson won't help, it won't click, and the instructor thinks that the board is not suitable, you can still go that route. However, a Twin Sister isn't really THAT stiff, and I suspect that you'll have the similar problems with an other medium flex camber board. I put my money on breaking the "bad habit repetition-timidity downward circle" being more effective. But you can rent a different board, sure, and check if the magic is happening. I just wouldn't buy.


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## neni (Dec 24, 2012)

drblast said:


> I'm gonna be the lone voice here saying, yes, the problem is the board. (It's also you - your technique does need work.)
> 
> Everything everyone is saying about your riding is spot on, but a camrock board is super-forgiving and washy and that's working against you learning to do things the right way right now.
> 
> Get yourself on a traditional camber board and your riding will improve immediately and you'll feel the edge hold. At that point you'll have the confidence to go faster. After a season on a board like that you'll be able to ride anything, including the Twin Sister, much more competently. I don't think the Twin Sister is too stiff for you - I think it's too rockered.


That's an interesting hint, which many of us may overlook as many oldtimers learned on camber and may take the amount of edge feel one learned with them for granted 🤔


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## OneRadDad (Dec 7, 2020)

For the OP, you may have seen this one already but if not, I think it's a good one.


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## OldSnow (Nov 20, 2019)

vectoranalysis said:


> This is why I'm so thrown. Everyone has such good thoughtful feedback but so far it's not translating. It's so demoralizing. Does this literally just boil down to the *board being too stiff for me? *I


It's not the board, from the videos you're kind of just standing on it and pointing it in a direction. I see lots of sliding and not trying to engage it. 
Slightly more speed would probably hide it, but I'd say get a lesson and have someone yell at you what you're doing wrong at the exact moment when it happens. 
Get lower, and visualise moving your weight over the board so the edge digs into the snow. Every time I change boards, I need to constantly remind myself - more weight on the front, get low, engage the edge and let it turn me - don't try to rotate the board. It took me years to get those bad habits out of my boarding, and there's still plenty more to work on. 🤪


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## Snowdaddy (Feb 2, 2018)

How To Carve On A Snowboard


Everyone loves carving like a madman and destroying the perfectly groomed corduroy. Now you can too! Check out this tutorial and improve your carving on a snowboard today! Remember, get even more tutorials with the Snowboard Addiction Snowboard Tutorial Membership! (Rider/Narrating: Nev Lapwood)...




snowboardaddiction.com





I would start with toe side turns and focus on your knees. Riding is mostly about hips and posture but a lot start with the direction of your knees. Especially in the toe side turn. 

You can test this by standing on your kitchen floor. Then bend you knees and let them fall forward while you imagine them going towards the floor. This will start your heels to lift from the floor.

I find this easier with positive feet angles. Now this isn’t all there is to the toe side turn, but it’s a way to stack that edge while keeping the hips and upper body in the right position. 

If you do this on snow while starting your turn you will get a feel for how it feels while riding the side cut.


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## vectoranalysis (Jan 19, 2021)

This is all really good food for thought. Most of these youtube videos are ones I've saved & watched a bunch of times in the past, especially revisiting them this season when it seemed like something was suddenly off, so all of these are all very familiar to me. It's definitely the case that I need to be more dynamic, no argument there - and truly it's a matter of _knowing_ what I need to do but not understanding why what worked on the old board isn't work now. Like *neni* said, a gap between what I think I'm doing and what my body's actually doing. So yes, lesson forthcoming.

In the mean time, I just can't stop thinking about the physics of this and am dying to understand _why a flat/rocker board would be easier/more forgiving in this way while a cam/rock board would be so washy. _I really appreciate *drblast*'s point (and btw I've seen some of your posts on related topic elsewhere and they've been some of the most helpful, so thank you!!) that the Jones is just too washy for where my current riding habits are at, but I'd love to know if anyone here has a concrete explanation for why it would be easier to feel edge grip with flat vs. camber between my feet, if both have the rockered nose and tail? Is it because the flat board has an edge that is already mostly guaranteed to make contact without any pressure vs. needing to actively work harder to press the camber down? But if that's the case, won't the _same _be even more true/problematic for a full camber board?

(Also on that note, dear god why is it so hard to figure out which boards are actually full camber vs. some brand specific version of camrock? So many sites list a board as camber and then reviewing the brand page specs I find it's actually rocker - camber - rocker.. what gives!?)

Anyway, because I can't help myself, here's an old clip I came across of me from a few years ago, I think in 2018, on my old board (because it's a real contrast to the sliding videos in my earlier post):

2018 old board.mov

It's wild to watch that now and think about how comfortable I remember feeling there, and I just _never_ felt at ease like this video on the Jones at all last season. Even on that same trail, going that same speed, on the Jones I would find making that little edge to edge transition would result in the board over rotating and then having to try extra hard to get the board on edge and pressure in a place to get some purchase. (And yes - for sure - you can see there's still a *ton* of room for me to bend my knees further and be more dynamic plus this was 3 years ago... but I can attest that in this video, I'm working hard, legs are engaged, and I felt very connected and centered over the edge on each side with the knee bend and hips forward/back in each side...) So, I get it, I need to be squatting lower and somehow forcing more weight down into the edges via posture/technique, and that'll be my mission this year but.. it's just so wild that what worked in my mechanics for one board is so wildly different on another.


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## Rip154 (Sep 23, 2017)

rayt100 said:


> This is advanced but it's one of the better instructional videos I found. He really breaks down the mechanics and body position. If you look you'll find tons of instructional vid's. I think muscle memory and strength are keys to advancing. If you don't know whats happening you can't correct the problem.


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## drblast (Feb 28, 2017)

vectoranalysis said:


> Is it because the flat board has an edge that is already mostly guaranteed to make contact without any pressure vs. needing to actively work harder to press the camber down? But if that's the case, won't the _same _be even more true/problematic for a full camber board?


With a flat board, you stand on it and nothing happens, that's the profile. On a camrock board when you stand on it, it forces the nose and tail up slightly because you're bending the board to flatten it. I think this happens more on a stiff board.

With either of those styles of board you have to get it on edge to engage the tips and you're not doing that, which is why you're sliding all over the place. On a traditional camber board it's just going to catch or dig in immediately and you'll be able to feel it doing that, so I think that feedback really helps you figure out what to do.

My wife getting on a camber board for the first time was amazing. She said she felt more stable, and I saw a night and day difference in her riding. I think having the confidence in her edges grabbing hold when she turned is what allowed her to ride more aggressively and dynamically.

Certain companies like Burton, Rome, and Nitro make traditional camber boards. Mervin's C3 is also a good fit despite not being "traditional camber". If you're 160lbs you can ride men's boards no problem.


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## BoardieK (Dec 21, 2015)

I experienced the same issue with a Rossignol Jibsaw camrock board and previously raised it on this forum as did another owner: Not loving my Jibsaw

I'm a good carver but when using that particular camrock board on icy snow I was like Bambi; sold it.


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## Scalpelman (Dec 5, 2017)

Rip154 said:


>


Yeah not exactly what the OP needs at this stage. But I very much appreciated the video link! Love the sequence explanations. This is extreme example but the technique will still help OP! We need to rid the world of straight legged riders. 

OP read and reread @neni ; posts. It’s all there. Can’t emphasize how much paying attention to dynamic riding took me to the next level. It’s a balance of taking what the mountain offers and moving your body to ride it. Up, down, fore, aft, all while balancing your weight over edges. You can’t do that with peg legs. A softer board at slower speed will let you get the technique mastered. Then go back to the new deck. Seems to me you’re riding the same with old and new boards. Just different speeds. But your technique is the same. 

When you engage and really RIDE THE EDGE you will know it. There is a sense of complete control and acceleration through the turn. Get low at start, initiate turn with front leg, drive with your legs balancing weight fore and aft and extend legs through the turn. As your speeds slows you’ll need to change your position to keep the edge weighted properly. Then suck up legs at end to start the next turn. Start squatted, end squatted. Up and down, fore and aft, toe and heel. Your body moves dynamically over the board.


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## rayt100 (Aug 29, 2016)

Agree, I mentioned advanced in the beginning. I meant his breakdown of the movement with steps and diagrams was excellent. I watch most of the online instructional videos at all levels. I try to practice the moves at home and watch videos of my actual boarding on the mountain to evaluate my progress. Lot's of times it's man what am I doing or damn that's ugly.
Snowboard addiction, Snowboard Dojo Wiz and Kijima all have good information on carving.


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## wrathfuldeity (Oct 5, 2007)

Go back to square 1...three factors to be aware of: Board profile, dynamic body movements and snow/terrain.

First the terrain is green to blue (at least to my local standards) and the snow is firm in your vids...shitty to have fun on...but good to learn on.

Second, your body movement is beginner to intermediate at best. You are too stiff, timid and the board is riding you. There is absolutely no up and down movement, you are not bending the kneez. You need to get lower. Watch the creepy basement vid, notice when I'm resting my elbows on my knees and really squating (btw you probably need to widen your stance). You want to be squatting like that both heeleside and toeside...that fucking low...over exaggerate! . Also you are pushing the snow with straight legs...NO...absorb the snow/terrain with your knees...suck up the terrain, your turns and snow with your knees...focus on sucking up your knees...it will feel like you are squatting....and you will be. You are in a passive mindset...get aggressive...eat up the snow and terrain and get on the fucking nose!!!! You want to learn to throw your board under your body...you can move a board under your body faster (dynamic riding) than moving your body over the board...(btw at the advanced level with high speed missle cruising carving...yup you are moving your body over the board...but ya aint there grasshapper).

Third, your beginner board was flat....yup a beginner easy board...stand on the fucker and it goes downhill while taking you for a ride...give that thing away...NEVER ride it again...its worthless to you. The Jones twin, a rcr...a sad excuse for a traditional cambered twin...get a traditional full cambered MID FLEX twin (a stiff ass full cambered board is for FR and missle cruising...ya aint ready)...in the snow that you are riding you don't need no fucking rocker in da tips....nor NO rocker in the middle. Sir you are riding snow that requires CAMBER and there is absolutely no need for rocker of any kind.

However...I would first get you on camber to clean up your lazy mindless body movements and get you to feel your edges...in your vids you have no awareness of your edges, nor are you getting on the edges...you are smearing and your back foot wiping ass movement is because your are not initiating on the nose and not getting the board on the edge nor are you letting the board run on an edge...you are using your torso to move from edge to edge. A traditional camber will be a good intro in to dynamic riding...its really baby steps..yup you are going to get punished until you learn about your edges.

After a good time/years of riding traditional camber...then get a CRC profile. Now lots of folks note that CRC is easier for beginners and intermediates because its more forgiving and you don't catch as many edges...which is true...but it ends up covering for bad or NO dynamic technique. To ride CRC well you have to be even more dynamic than on a traditional cambered board. CRC takes more fore/aft and up/down movement to make it work well. And when you are able to ride CRC well...its like driving a agile sports car...its a hell of a lot of fun hot rodding around the hill. BUT the snow (at least starting out) needs to be softer, not firm nor icey...if firm/icey snow...ride traditional camber. Sir you are not ready to ride CRC profile...and are far from it.

Kindly,
wrath


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## neni (Dec 24, 2012)

wrathfuldeity said:


> Kindly,
> wrath


Oooh... Do I see Wrath saying something good abt CRC? I thought I'm the last one left on this forum liking that profile


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## wrathfuldeity (Oct 5, 2007)

neni said:


> Oooh... Do I see Wrath saying something good abt CRC? I thought I'm the last one left on this forum liking that profile


Hey girlfriend when are we going to get to ride together again? Hope you and yours have a great winter on the other side of the pond. You know I love the CRC profile on fresh to packed natty terrain where you can trench an edge and its a great ride up to about 15-20cm deep. Having had a 159 billygoat c2btx splitty and still have a 155 c2btx Bpro for hotrodding delight...there is nothing better...though the current GNU c3's are meh...rather have a trad camber if its firmer or icier and if deeper an S profile.


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## vectoranalysis (Jan 19, 2021)

Hey it’s me again. For those following along at home, and since some of you seem to love a good update haha, here’s one more from me: @drblast wins this round .

I nabbed a new but discounted Nitro Victoria Pro from last year and I LOVE IT. I don’t want to jinx anything since I’ve only been out riding it two days, but we’re talking early season narrow trails that amount to thin manmade stuff blowing off that lovely east coast ice - conditions that would have had me feeling totally defeated on the Twin Sister last season.

I obviously still have a lot of learning and improving to do, and I don’t have any video to share but I can say it’s like night and day - literally by my 3rd run on day one last weekend, after I’d shaken the rust off and remembered how to ride, I was like HOLY SHIT this board is doing what I expect it to - I TRUST my board again! It’s wild. I’d come around a curve and expect (from muscle memory) to struggle to find edge/contact/purchase and slide… and instead I find the board’s up on edge and holding that line and not siding all around.

So far I haven’t had trouble with the potential catchiness of it being full camber but we’ll learn more about that whenever we actually get some real snow and I’m not just riding a knife edge down a sheet of ice, haha. I’m sure I’m in for a little more adjustment period there.

It’s also making me realize just how much 20+ days on the Twin Sister really undermined my confidence and trust in my board and my own ability. I’m still building back my confidence at speed but I’m already riding at faster averages and tops speeds than most of last season - closer to the previous year… it’s a glorious thing to keep pushing a board more and more on each run and have it behave the way my body expects it to each time… trust is slowly being restored. Today’s icy runs would have had me windshield-wipering and losing edges on higher speed trail curves all last year and today I was able to just ride “30ft ahead” through all of it without nearly as much tentativeness. I had forgotten how relaxing it can be to ride around when you trust your board.

Thanks again for all the input. I update here largely to help some potential future person who comes searching for similar info or is struggling with similar issues and this’ll turn up in their search results: listen to your body and if the board isn’t working for you, or betrays you at every turn - find a new board that you can trust. I will also add that I got new boots as well, so they’re stiffer and more responsive than my old worn in pair was - I’m sure that’s helping too.

Maybe as a few people mentioned I’ll revisit the Twin Sister down the road and find I can enjoy it more after a season honing skills on camber. Or maybe I’ll just stay away from RCR forever… haha. We shall see.


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## drblast (Feb 28, 2017)

It's nice to win one.

You will definitely enjoy the Twin sister after you gain confidence from the other board. But realize since you were never confident on it in the first place, it's going to feel washy and weird until you ride it for a few days and get used to that profile. But at least you'll have your technique down and confidence back.

I'd suggest trying the twin sister in softer snow and good conditions after a while.


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## Anais (Aug 14, 2016)

neni said:


> That's an interesting hint, which many of us may overlook as many oldtimers learned on camber and may take the amount of edge feel one learned with them for granted 🤔


 hmm what's weird to me is I like camber these days, cleaner edge, more precise and better control. But that didn't help with riding my rcr hybrids, it actually set me back... now I don't like or can't quite manage my rcrs... I find the edges just messy, dragging and everywhere, and swings way too much to my liking, annoying.
So sent me on a path of hunt for new daily driver - softer true camber, Nitro Team Pro on mind for now, just waiting for stock and deal. 😅
I am probably doing something wrong, just don't know what... prefer camber over others is understandable, but comfortable on camber then feel no longer comfortable on rcrs is weird...


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## Anais (Aug 14, 2016)

vectoranalysis said:


> @drblast wins this round .
> 
> I nabbed a new but discounted Nitro Victoria Pro from last year and I LOVE IT.


nice! another camber lover. 😁 
yeah, out of my surprise, camber is not really that 'expert option' it works wonders for any none complete 'newbies' whom prefers certain riding style or feel.
It's more precise, easier to feel and hold an edge, and clean edges too! Nice pop too.
Enjoy it!


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## bluesjumper (Nov 15, 2011)

This season I upgraded my 11 year old Burton Custom with a Jones Stratos. I've had similar struggles as Vectoranalysis. Had such a tough time on the Stratos compared to the Custom. No doubt my technique needs tons of improvement, and I realized that I'm just not as good of a snowboarder as I thought I was (haha). The Stratos was just too advanced for my skill level. I just ordered a Ride Algorhythm and hoping I will enjoy it more and continue advancing.


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## wrathfuldeity (Oct 5, 2007)

Glad to see that folks appreciating camber has a place and following. Started on camber, went to full rocker, then crc, did ride iirc? @neni rcr for a day, and now depending on the snow either on an S-profile or my ancient FR stiff camber that neni rode when we traded boards for the day. And on a rare day will use the crc to hotrod around on in spring conditions.

Anyway, camber is good for learning and progressing on...because it is predictable even though you will get yer arse SPANKED a few times. Once you get your technique/skills together, camber will practically ride itself, stand on it, suck up your knees, be dynamic...go fast and trench carves...very predictable, responsive and stable. I hated the banana, but I did not have my body alignment and stacking game developed and thus it was a frick'n squirrely bastard...still don't like full rocker because it does not fit my style nor really the hill I ride. Side note, back when the nanner came out they were slipping all over the hill...now I rarely see a full rockered board. CRC is a fun profile for hot rodding around...but you have to have your dynamic, stacking and alignment game on in order to get full benefit of the crc profile tech. Crc maybe forgiving for beginners...but it don't school ya like camber. Methinks RCR has a place, in my mind it's like riding a mid-flex twin camber with raised tips...good for slightly deeper soft snow...but imho a S-profile works better because it basically a tapered set back (directional) twin camber but with an extended soft rise powder nose.

So the ramble to the point. A mid-flex cambered board is a great step towards progressing to a stiff FR big-cambered ride. So if you have over bought a stiff FR cam, save it...because you will progress into it and then it will be fast fun.


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