# Burton is not that great!



## Guest (Nov 13, 2007)

alright i really want to ask why burton-whores love burton so much. There are way better board companies out there and they're way cheaper and well.....better. Burton is rich losers that jack up they're prices because it simply has burton on there. It's not that burton sucks and is horrible but come on. I hate when new people into the sport hear about burton and that immediatly the brand they want and they way rather get some 600 dollar board for a f'ckin name! i personally ride a 06 07 k2 www, which is a sick board by the way, my friend was a burton whore until i let him ride my board and guess what he has now, a k2 www. I want to say to all the people coming into the sport that think they need a burton that you should look into other brands, youll get a way better deal with some way better tech.


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## Guest (Nov 13, 2007)

Bonfire-Snow said:


> alright i really want to ask why burton-whores love burton so much. There are way better board companies out there and they're way cheaper and well.....better. Burton is rich losers that jack up they're prices because it simply has burton on there. It's not that burton sucks and is horrible but come on. I hate when new people into the sport hear about burton and that immediatly the brand they want and they way rather get some 600 dollar board for a f'ckin name! i personally ride a 06 07 k2 www, which is a sick board by the way, my friend was a burton whore until i let him ride my board and guess what he has now, a k2 www. I want to say to all the people coming into the sport that think they need a burton that you should look into other brands, youll get a way better deal with some way better tech.


Its like Nike with shoes man. Biggest name in the biz. Not always, or even at all, the best.


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## Mr. Right (Sep 27, 2007)

Agreed, Burton everything is SO damn expensive. I have Burton Ion boots, but that is because out of 20 some odd pairs of boots they just plain fit my feet the best. I also have a Burton Bullet for my powder board which it's good for, and not much else, not to mention I traded an 1/8 of ganj for it, and never would have bucked up the cash otherwise. They are just an elitist company that doesn't like to throw much back to their custy's as far as deals etc. I never see Burtons for 50% off new and it's just a pita to have to buy another set of mounting plates to use non Burton bindings on their boards. More than anything, I just don't like their style, there are plenty of dedicated companies out there. :dunno:


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## killclimbz (Aug 10, 2007)

You are not going to find many Burton fans on this site. I find that snowboard related item they make, I can get at a better price that performs better. Boots, boards, bindings. So yeah, I think they suck. That's my opinion though and they have plenty of decent (and crappy)product. Some of their softgoods and accessories are hard to beat. 

I am tempted to lock this but maybe I'll let it fly for now. If this turns into full on bashing without any reason the one of us mods will slam the door.


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## landonk5 (Aug 19, 2007)

well burton stuff isnt that bad. bindings for example, will usually be
extremely over priced, but surprisingly, i found some brand new P1s
at a surf shop for $130. and some C60s for 190. hard to beat that.
even if you dont plan on using them you can make $100 off each of those
on ebay.


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## Guest (Nov 13, 2007)

Last season I bought the Shaun White sig. jacket, the pinstripe one, because it was on clearance for $90 and i needed a new one bad. I kinda regret it know, i feel somewhat like a tool riding down the mountain in that thing, and i've even had random annoying comments....."Hey! there goes Shaun White"


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## rrrtx (Aug 18, 2007)

yeah the only reason i have my burton jacket is because it was 50% off and i found a code for another 50% off that which came to $60+free shipping. Also got a frequency helmet for same deal... came out to be less than $50 for the helmet. Thinking of selling the thing on ebay and $$$ about 60+bucks.


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## alaric (Aug 28, 2007)

I hate Burton hard goods. I've had horrible luck with their bindings and boots, and I've heard nasty stuff about their boards (I'll admit though, I've never used one. Not too keen on trying one either). On the other hand, I've had good luck with their soft goods. My snowpants are Burton Cargos, and the things are awesome.

Burton is a popular brand. Most new people start out with something Burton (I did!) and then progress into something else. Some may like Burton, some may not. In the end it's all personal prefrence. While I may try to discourage someone from buying a Burton product by no means would I not let them buy it. If they've had goodluck with a product then let them continue using it!


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## Guest (Nov 13, 2007)

i think burton is popular because it is a good product IMO, yeah theres better stuff out there but burton also has the name. Anyways they aren't popular by being named burton they are popular because they've been a good company for a good time. If everyone is talking about them in a good way for the past 20 years then they are doing something right. But yeah if you look for reasons to dislike burton you will find them you can find that with any company. I do agree w/ the walking billboard, even though i have all burton gear and probably looked like one of those at the beggining of the year last year haha. I picked it up because i asked people around that snowboard for their opinions and i got my bindings on clearance or else i would have gone w/ another brand for those...


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## rrrtx (Aug 18, 2007)

yeah after hearing all this talk about 390s i want some... however i ended up getting 08 cartels for $110 :thumbsup:


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## EverBorN (Jul 21, 2007)

Cartels are awesome =):thumbsup: Like he said... Burton doesn't have the name because it's burton.. burton has the name it does because they earned it :dunno: It's easy to sit there and find all the bad things you can about a company & since there #1 that makes you wanna do so but you can do that for any company /shrug. There's a reason many people in the X games & the Olympics use burton stuff =) Just because it's burton doesn't mean it's tons of $$.. I have a brand new 2008 Burton Twin $450.. any comparable board from any other company would be around the same price. This thread is funny :cheeky4:


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## Guest (Nov 13, 2007)

i agree with all of the above about burton makiing a name for themselves and living up to it. Theres a reason why everyone wears and ride thier stuff. They take care of their customers and try to always have a step up on other companies. as for the walking billboard people, I hate it as much as the next person because you know they went out and bought it just because its all burton. I love burton softgoods like no other. they are just comfortable. and yeah i ride a burton board but i cant stand their bindings and went with a different company. and i also got a different companies boots. like alaric said, its a personal prefference(sp?) just because you dont like them, doesnt mean someone else feels the same. end of my rant.


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## PaoloSmythe (Aug 19, 2007)

meh.... burton is just one of many brands out there. some stuff is good, other stuff less so.

burton get the hate, coz they have the money and influence (but mainly money) to be every where, which can create resentment. they have the big bucks to attract the big names to their professional roster and of course, all magazines etc have the double page adverts.

their customer service tho has always treated me well; their products have failed to let me down and whilst i am not inclined to buy something just coz it has the burton logo on it, nor am i less likely to actual buy it if i need it.

as for those who criticise anyone for wearing or riding burton... well they care too much for their image (and worse, that of others) to truly understand what this snowboaring malarky really is all about! so fuck em!


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## T.J. (Aug 28, 2007)

paolo and mdp are spot on in their comments. 

i personally have never owned a bad burton product, but i'm no fanboy. most of the burton stuff i currently use i got great deals on SAC or end of season clearences.

anyways, i think its kind of funny that people will sit and rip on burton and burton fanboys while they are sitting there hating and plugging their favorite company...being a fanboy and a hater are basically the same thing, just on the opposite sides of the scale.


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## PaoloSmythe (Aug 19, 2007)

this brand loyalty thing is a weird one.

i can see how it benefits the brand corps etc.... but really for consumers, it just constrains your range of choice. this is in no way a good thing.

ultimately and of course, it is all a matter of ego and how fragile it always is! people buy stuff that they might think is the 'best' or the most 'trendy'. if they see other people using other stuff, then there is the suggestion in the doubtful minds, that their taste and choice is some how wrong or inferior!

how dare people be individualistic!

to this end, people oppose the Burton way and at the same time, the same people (or other similar minded peeps) adopt loyalty to another brand...oh say, 'Rome'.

give it a season or two and watch the Rome haters come out of the wood work!

at the end of the day, snowboarding's essence is of self expression. it is what seperates us from the skiers, as they regimentally follow the piste tracks, and complain about the off piste / back country sideways sliders!

and so it is ironic that despite the wealth of brand out there.... they are all effectively offering the exact same product! before long, the most rebellious, self expressionate thing a snowboarder can do, is *buy a pair of skis!*


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## lisevolution (Sep 20, 2007)

EverBorN said:


> There's a reason many people in the X games & the Olympics use burton stuff =) Just because it's burton doesn't mean it's tons of $$...


The reason so many people in the X-games and Olympics use Burton stuff is because they get paid for it! Don't think for a second if Nitro or GNU or K2 or any other company for that matter had offered Shaun White or any other current Burton rider more $$$ for their skills they wouldn't have gone there. 

I'm not Burton bashing in fact I was wearing one of their sweatshirts this weekend and actually own about 4 of them as well as my base layer, gloves and other various objects from them. They make a good product and have been around a very long time. I personally have had a lot of bad luck with their hard goods and will not buy them again. 

The biggest problem with Burton getting the "anti" rep it has developed is indeed that they are the largest company with the most global support. I mean what other snowboarding company has their own flagship stores? They are the most widely distributed brand so every ski/snowboard/sporting goods store sells their equipment. Also when you're just starting out in the sport and your parents are buying you your equipment more than likely they're gonna want to spend their $800 total cost on a company they have heard of or have seen a lot so they don't feel like they're getting ripped off. This is why stores sell as much of their product as they do. 

Bottom line to me is Burton makes good stuff, I just am not going to be buying their boards, boots, or bindings anytime soon.


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## PaoloSmythe (Aug 19, 2007)

lisevolution said:


> I mean what other snowboarding company has their own flagship stores?


quiksilver; vans; adidas; head

but yar i get your point (i fink)


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## lisevolution (Sep 20, 2007)

I guess Quicksilver makes boards but to me they're a surf/clothes company, same as Vans. I haven't seen a Head store in the States and they're also a Ski company among a million other sports similar with Adidas. 

You do know what I mean though you aren't going to see a Rome, Mervin, Nitro, Palmer etc. store in major US cities and have the ability to move the product without retailer assistance...


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## killclimbz (Aug 10, 2007)

Carmen, Winterstick is the Original. Westside. They predate Burton by at least a decade.

Sims and Burton got started at practically the same time. Bummer Tom Sims was more interested in snowboarding, skating, and being a surf bum than he was at being a business man. Otherwise, Sims could easily have been the go to brand. The were west side and Tahoe was the scene. No one else anywhere had the influence that Tahoe did.

Burton was more aggressive and kudos to them.

As far as pros go rockin' Burton gear. Well duh. Pros are notoriously hard on their gear. Top pros constantly break bindings boards etc. In a pinch it's going to be pretty easy to find a shop that carries Burton gear. Several pros have signed with them for that reason alone. Not that the gear was better, but that it was easier to get replaced. Show up to a shop, the shop gets an authorization from Burton HQ and walk out with what you need. From a competing professional's standpoint, Burton makes absolute sense.


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## lisevolution (Sep 20, 2007)

don't forget Avalanche either... they came out around '82 and were riding the mountains way earlier than that just not distributed outside of via the founders trunk...


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## Guest (Nov 13, 2007)

i agree with alaric i rock burton cargos in firecracker red and they are nice snowpants , but if there were another company who came out w/ half the designs as burton does for a resonable price i would be buying there snowpants instead, BUT i feel like a ****** wearing my burton boots, i had no choice hy old ones were trashed mid season so i needed a cheap pair and i bought the burton snakes or something


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## T.J. (Aug 28, 2007)

i'm sorry your boots make you feel homosexual but check your derogatory statements at the door please.


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## Snowjoe (Jul 3, 2007)

Here's a fun fact. When a couple of my buddies broke their backs last year Burton ratchets and straps were used to fasten their back braces.


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## sevenvii (Oct 12, 2007)

> check your derogatory statements at the door please


this is an open public forum, your gonna hear a lot of stuff you dont like so the best bet is to 'check your feelings at the door'


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## boarderaholic (Aug 13, 2007)

This is indeed an open forum, however, derogatory statements should be left at the doory. If language gets out of hand, I and the other mods WILL start editing posts.


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## Mr. Right (Sep 27, 2007)

Hey that's pretty forgiving, I've been on forums where if you make personal attacks or use an excessive amount of foul language they'll just ban your ass. They are actually pretty lenient around here.


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## Incogneato (Nov 14, 2007)

Actually, i think Burton is that great. I have been riding their stuff for over 20 seasons. they make stuff for everyone, from beginner weekend warriors to rich morons to guys like me. sure their prices are higher than most in similar categories but thats because they can command those prices. its stupid to assume because it costs more that that means they are saying its "the best". thats a poor insecure persons attitude. every company says their stuff is 'the best". to say there is stuff out there that is way better and way cheaper is dumb. how are you measuring that its "better?". Burton makes quality stuff, they wouldn't be the number one compnay in EVERY category if they didn't. there are no statistics that i am aware of that shows their stuff breaks more or less than anyone elses stuff.

hating on companies is stupid, just pick the gear you like and go with it, if you don't like it: fine. if you do keep on keeping on


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## Incogneato (Nov 14, 2007)

mpdsnowman said:


> I think the biggest negative perception of Burton stem from the newbie theory...Here me out..
> 
> How many of you who have been riding for awhile have seen the burton newbie on the mountain..U know, The one who has only been on a board for one or two times and now sports the new burton boots, binders, board, helmet glove , clothes etc...almost a walking billboard if you will. U know the individual bought all that burton because they conceive it to be the best...(blame the tomatoe for that one)...and you know they didnt even contemplate any other brand name...
> 
> Its negative opinional perception that creates alot of the Burton dislike..I would like to think MFG wise their product offering has the same quality as most other standard MFG's in the industry..maybe even a bit better


excellent point


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## Guest (Nov 14, 2007)

lisevolution said:


> I guess Quicksilver makes boards but to me they're a surf/clothes company, same as Vans. I haven't seen a Head store in the States and they're also a Ski company among a million other sports similar with Adidas.
> 
> You do know what I mean though you aren't going to see a Rome, Mervin, Nitro, Palmer etc. store in major US cities and have the ability to move the product without retailer assistance...


Mervin is owned by Quiksilver......FYI.


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## PaoloSmythe (Aug 19, 2007)

most things are owned by Quiksilver!


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## T.J. (Aug 28, 2007)

sevenvii said:


> this is an open public forum, your gonna hear a lot of stuff you dont like so the best bet is to 'check your feelings at the door'


its common courtesy. swear all you want. fuck shit piss whatever but there is no need for racial, sexual or any other kind of descrimination. thats fucking ignorant and i'm sure it will not be tolderated around here.


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## PaoloSmythe (Aug 19, 2007)

oh calm down TJ

if real offence was caused, then just PM a mod or admin and let them _'do the do'_

hissy fits are just that and worse, such _public feet stamping_ might incline others to jusitfy their words and then before you know it, we're all calling each other 'seppo' and 'limey' _et cetera_.....

as if it really matters.


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## T.J. (Aug 28, 2007)

and then before you know it, we're all calling each other 'seppo' and 'limey' _et cetera_.....

we would never do something like that around here. :cheeky4:

meh, just stating my feelings on the subject. i hear thats what your supposed to do on these intraweb things.


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## PaoloSmythe (Aug 19, 2007)

really? dang i been doing it all wrong!

so what was the thorn in your side? '******'?

not the nicest term i can agree, but prohibitively nasty?

what about 'bummer' or 'queer' or '************' or 'MPD'...? _oops sorry!_


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## lisevolution (Sep 20, 2007)

storrisch said:


> Mervin is owned by Quiksilver......FYI.


Damn...didn't know that! :dunno: Well you still get my point though... Burton is a Snowboarding specific brand, Quicksilver is not, and the Quicksilver store down the block in Times Square doesn't sell Lib or GNU snowboards there...they do have a Roxy Ollie Pop on display but I don't think you can actually buy it


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## Guest (Nov 14, 2007)

i have burton stuff that i bought before i knew better (luckily at end of season prices); am happy with their softgoods and their higher end bindings. i cannot say that i would never buy burton hardgoods anymore but i am a bit put off by the big B ever since i read about burton obtaining a patent and then trying to extort a percentage of profits from other snowboad mfgs.


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## Dcp584 (Sep 10, 2007)

I agree that Burton doesn't make a bad product. Its not like we're talking about a company like Lamar or something. Burton has made its name based off of it quality products they wouldn't be such a commercial giant and staple in the industry if there stuff was shit. Personally I own two Burton boards one is a Bullet from like I think 6 or 7 seasons and the other being an Air circa 1980 something maybe early 90's. Have not ridden either of these in over 5 seasons because the Air just because it's old and starting to fall apart, and the Bullet is a 169 and stiff as all hell so to say the least it restricts my current riding style seeing how I currently ride a 155 Agent. But that is beside the point I have never had Burton product go bad on me, I just now prefer to ride Rome products.

I do believe though that Burton does seem like it has lost some of the soul it originally had. And that is caused by the almighty dollar which makes them look like they have sold out, because of the fact all of thier gear does make you look like a giant billboard riding down the mountain; when I see that I get the impression that it isn't about the ride anymore its all about the cash money. Which is why I started to buy Rome gear and supporting the smaller companies cause it doesn't seem like they are only in it for just the almighty dollar.


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## PaoloSmythe (Aug 19, 2007)

Dcp584 said:


> I started to buy Rome gear and supporting the smaller companies cause it doesn't seem like they are only in it for just the almighty dollar.


bahahahahhaaaaaaaaaaa. oh man! i apologise sincerely. but that is priceless. i ain;t bagging in ya or nowt it's just that.... bahahahahahahahahaaaaaa:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:


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## Dcp584 (Sep 10, 2007)

What is so damn hysterical to you, is it cause Rome isn't the small company any more. Yea but it was small when I started to ride thier boards.


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## Guest (Nov 14, 2007)

PaoloSmythe said:


> bahahahahhaaaaaaaaaaa. oh man! i apologise sincerely. but that is priceless. i ain;t bagging in ya or nowt it's just that.... bahahahahahahahahaaaaaa:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:


Uh...what?? I mean, sure every company is out to make a profit, but their intentions are all different based on those who run the company. If you can tell me that Rome's reasons for trying to sell quality stuff is the same as Burton's then...well then I understand them both quite incorrectly...


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## boarderaholic (Aug 13, 2007)

Let's look at it this way, all companies are out there to make money. Without money, the company wouldn't survive. HOW some companies go about it though, is another story. Some companies are really good at marketing to the crowd as a whole, some prefer to stay underground and market to certain crowds, IE: backcountry crowds, or park only, etc etc. In the end, there is NO one "best" or "worst" company.


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## Guest (Nov 14, 2007)

burton= walmart of snowboarding ... end of story


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## Dcp584 (Sep 10, 2007)

st.stark said:


> Uh...what?? I mean, sure every company is out to make a profit, but their intentions are all different based on those who run the company. If you can tell me that Rome's reasons for trying to sell quality stuff is the same as Burton's then...well then I understand them both quite incorrectly...


Ha see you understood what the hell I was saying.


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## PaoloSmythe (Aug 19, 2007)

sincerely, and i am more than happy to be shown my arse on this so please don't consider me conceited....

but if having considered all that has been said in here; ie _burton makes good stuff and have been successful _combined with _rome and all other bidnis entities are trying to make dollar_....

how can you act surprised that your previous statement was anything less than funny?

i mean honestly, what are the _new kids on the block _trying to do, which is any different to what Burton did back in the day? Burton deserve kudos for being the example and inspiration that all other _'more worthy brands' _ follow!?


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## Dcp584 (Sep 10, 2007)

No one is dicussing what Burton was back in the day. Yes Burton was an inovator and a great example for how to make a successful company and how to make a good product. But the reason I think alot of people have taken a disliking to Burton is that it seems like they sold out. The original reasons Burton started his company have been lost and it seems to be more about they money than anythign else and thats what people dislike.

And yes the other companies are trying to make a buck but thats the nature of the beast if you want to continue to have a business you have to make money. simple economics. But the difference is that it doesn't seem like thats all that mattes to the other companies as much as it does to Burton.


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## PaoloSmythe (Aug 19, 2007)

Dcp584 said:


> I think alot of people have taken a disliking to Burton is that it seems like *they sold out*. *The original reasons Burton started his company have been lost *and it seems to be more about they money than anythign else and thats what people dislike.


you are of course entitled to your opinion, and people's perceptions are as they are. 

however (and my chosen language is used to emphasise my disagreement on this and not to insult) if this is an honest perception, then it is so far removed from reality, it is absolute bullshit.

it is interesting to me that people can, 

promote the virtues of _K2_ (a US *ski *company); 
can comment happily on the vast number of board makers who are enveloped by _Quiksilver_, who has itself engulfed ski companies like _Rossignol_; 
live happily with _Atomic _and _Salomon _products (both ski companies who diversified into snowboarding and who are now owned by the purely economic power-house of _Amer sports_); and yet a company like _Burton_, who acquired entities such as _Jeenyus _and _Four square _away from ski company predation, is dismissed as a _sell out_.



> And yes the other companies are trying to make a buck but thats the nature of the beast if you want to continue to have a business you have to make money. simple economics. But the difference is that it doesn't seem like thats all that mattes to the other companies as much as it does to Burton.


yes, you have said as much before, but without evidence of this, you are merely sustaining a *prejudice*. at the end of the day, what you see as _wrong _with _Burton_, genuinely is what everybody else sees as the *epitome of success*.

for your consideration:

_Burton Snowboards, the world's *first* snowboard factory, is a *pure snowboard *company *solely dedicated *to creating and perfecting a full range of the best snowboarding equipment on the planet. Founded in 1977, Burton has *fueled the growth *of snowboarding *worldwide *through its team of top snowboarders and *successful programs *such as Learn To Ride (LTR), the Chill Foundation and the Open Snowboarding Championships. Headquartered in Burlington, Vermont with *international offices *in Innsbruck, Austria and Tokyo, Japan, Burton has been the *industry leader since its inception*. _

Burton Finalizes Forum, Jeenyus, Foursquare, And Special Blend Deal - Transworld Business Magazine

at the risk of being accusatory, the opinions being expressed in here, are not your own!


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## Guest (Nov 15, 2007)

I dislike Burton not because they've "Sold-Out" I could care less. Every company wants my money first no matter what they say. Okay yeah so Rome is all about the Boarders, they're still doing it to make money thats their sales pitch. Every company has it. If you think Burton is bad perhaps you should look here K2 Inc

Yeah that is K2inc these are the Snowrelated companies they Own:
K2 Skis
K2 Skates
K2 Snowboards
Volkl
Marker
Madshus
Atlas
Tubbs
Line
Karhu
5150
Ride <--- I.e. Ride snowboards... A brand that I have seen a lot of ppl support here *im one of them*
Morrow

I could care less about the brand name. Shit Neversummer is getting bigger now a days I wonder how long it is before they are purchased? Or perhaps Rome gets bought out? It'll happen, and you will never know unless you pay serious attention to the financial portion of the newspaper.

I'm done pissing ppl off for today


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## Guest (Nov 15, 2007)

I don't have much to say about brand vs. brand here, I'm not a brand whore and just buy whatever seems to work well, but this thread reminds me of kids in high school who like a band until other people start liking it, and then denounce it as a sellout or trendy band and not good enough for their oh so sophisticated tastes.

por ejemplo: a few of my friends were big Tenacious D fans early in high school. They told close friends about them and got them interested, but once Jack Black and TD started gaining popularity with people they weren't hanging out with, they denounced the band(but still bought their music funny enough) and rolled their eyes at people who said they were going to a TD show, or whatever.

the funny thing I find about people who are snobby in sports like snowboarding and skateboarding is that they've been around for quite some time, so 99% of the people bitching about newbs and the gear they have, were not originators anyway. It's not some new phenomenon that has seen thousands of bandwagon jumpers in the last year or two irritating the shit out of old schoolers and originators, nearly anyone into the sport these days hopped on the bandwagon with everyone else.

then you have people who just love the underdog, which is great for the large corporations who own these small companies and have worked so hard to keep their image as a small, "damn the man" kind of company. Small companies, if they are any good at all, don't stay small for long.


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## PaoloSmythe (Aug 19, 2007)

Snowolf said:


> Because {burton) had such fundamental role in getting snowboarding going, people placed tham on a pedestal of sorts and now when shareholders who don`t know a sidecut from a camber make financial decissions that cause the corporation to do things that the loyal Burton culture sees as treason and betrayal, thus the Burton hate.


sorry, but i don't buy that. aside from Burton NOT having shareholders, it is thru an obligation to their employees, that in such a consumer driven industry, where disposable commodities must be priced appropriately, Burton could labour on with US sourced manufacture and see their price structure rise even higher than it is now, or they can try to maintain their market position by exploiting those same resources as all other companies.

there is no consistency in the arguement that a specifc brand is despised on the basis of what economic decisions they make or by whom, or where their products are made.

meanwhile, you love your _Atomic _and fair enuff, but i reiterate, _Atomic _is a ski company, owned by a conglomerate organsiation, who very much does have shareholders. 

i ain't busting your hump wolfie, its just that _Burton _derision and _Atomic _acceptance (not necessarily by yourself) is a perfect example of a lack of consistency in this whole _'which brand is cool and which is for fools?'_ debate.....

for those inclined to make up their own minds, some clues: 

HP - What do you have to say - Burton for your business


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## PaoloSmythe (Aug 19, 2007)

no, i know you are not a hater wolfie.....

it is just the brand examples raised between us made for perfect examples.

Burton have decisions made by snowboarders and yet they are 'bad'.

Atomic have decisions made by shareholders and yet they are 'okay'.

i found this strickingly removed from the underlying sentiment thus far suggested as being the reason to bag on the big B.

and no i have no objection to the ski fraternity, for what they have given snowboarding technology wise. it is only fair we give em somethign back.
the same is said for my welcoming the mental philosophies given to snowboarders thru surfers!

however, i will never find comfortable, the sight of a skier in the terrain park! especially the half pipe. but then, as i think all parks should be destroyed anyways....meh.


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## Guest (Nov 15, 2007)

*Burton*



alaric said:


> I hate Burton hard goods. I've had horrible luck with their bindings and boots, and I've heard nasty stuff about their boards (I'll admit though, I've never used one. Not too keen on trying one either). On the other hand, I've had good luck with their soft goods. My snowpants are Burton Cargos, and the things are awesome.
> 
> Burton is a popular brand. Most new people start out with something Burton (I did!) and then progress into something else. Some may like Burton, some may not. In the end it's all personal prefrence. While I may try to discourage someone from buying a Burton product by no means would I not let them buy it. If they've had goodluck with a product then let them continue using it!


Agree, when i first went out i rented everything and it was all burton. Later when i went to get my own shit the prices drove me away and towards other brands that are the same for less. I have nothing against them but i wont spend that much for gear... I do love their clothing.


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## lisevolution (Sep 20, 2007)

Like I said earlier in the thread, I'm by no means a Burton hater and have used a bunch of their equipment in the past and still have a bunch of their outerwear. I like the analogy made to HS kids and the sell-out theory as it ties to bands. It is very similar IMO.

By being so big in a world that was founded on non-comformity and is populated by a multitude of people who still like to go against the system, Burton has painted themselves as, "The Man" in the snowboarding world. That is why the perception is what it is. I have had my issues with their equipment which is why I stopped using it. I switched from Ride to Rome this year not because K2 bought them, but because I wanted to give a different brand a shot and the feedback by everyone I spoke to was overwhelmingly positive. 

Burton makes good stuff, I just feel you can get a better value with other brands.

In terms of the Skiers in the park comment by Paolo, I just look at them like I did when I skated and kids started doign the aggressive in-line thing. It's cool or whatever but it just isn't the same thing


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## PaoloSmythe (Aug 19, 2007)

lisevolution said:


> By being so big in a world that was founded on non-comformity and is populated by a multitude of people who still like to go against the system,


and yet these 'rebellious youth' are catered to, by ALL brands offering them the same styles and fashions.

the idea that this 'sport' is non-conformist is out dated. as i facetiously mentioned previously, if you really want to break away from the masses, go buy skis!



> Burton has painted themselves as, "The Man" in the snowboarding world.


i do not believe this to be accurate i am affraid. 

i think Burton merely continued to do, what they have always done. any 'painting' was done by other competing companies, who wished to use 'propaganda' to help them in their game of 'catch up'.


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## lisevolution (Sep 20, 2007)

PaoloSmythe said:


> and yet these 'rebellious youth' are catered to, by ALL brands offering them the same styles and fashions.
> 
> the idea that this 'sport' is non-conformist is out dated. as i facetiously mentioned previously, if you really want to break away from the masses, go buy skis!


I don't necessarily disagree with the reality of the situation but the perception of the people involved is definitely still the same. Believe me when I started snowboarding in the mid to late 90's it was already very corporate and watered down but there was still that fuck the skiers battle going on on the slopes. Now there's more snowboarders than skiers





PaoloSmythe said:


> i do not believe this to be accurate i am affraid.
> 
> i think Burton merely continued to do, what they have always done. any 'painting' was done by other competing companies, who wished to use 'propaganda' to help them in their game of 'catch up'.


I understand where you are coming from and that has definitely played a role in it, but I think Burton's desire to control the market is what put them in the position they're in.


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## PaoloSmythe (Aug 19, 2007)

okay, so i feel that i have spunked my wad on this subject. 

i have little more to offer and not being a pro-Burton person, but instead just someone who would prefer to sideways slide with those who know their own mind (as opposed to being corporate parrots; i'm not accusing anyone!) i will leave it at that.

but i am intrigued to hear what people have seen to make them think the B have tried to 'control' the market, or how they have 'sold out' or have done any of those other terrible deeds they stand accused of.

i will not contend otherwise, i just feel they are being spited coz of their success, due to envy from the 'also rans'.

cheers


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## lisevolution (Sep 20, 2007)

How bout the fact that Jake bought the Patent for the "SkiBoard" I believe it was called and then tried to make the rest of the companies in the industry pay him royalty fees? 

Like I said, I personally respect them as a company and business wise they've done everything they should do for themselves to grow and continue to thrive. Every large corporation that leads an industry for a period of time has a backlash... it happens in every industry


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## killclimbz (Aug 10, 2007)

The "skiboard" incident is one of the main reasons I don't care for them. In effect they tried to make every company that made boards pay them a royalty based on that patent. Not only that, but they tried to make it sound like they were being forced to do it.
Then there is their binding pattern lawsuit. Mind you, they never had a problem making discs for the four hole patterns everyone else uses. God forbid you make something that will work with their gear. Well without paying them directly for it...


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## Guest (Nov 15, 2007)

Ok, this might be a little off topic from what you guys are talking about, but as long as its a thread about Burton. Is it just me or is the Dominant really really ugly this year? I mean, griptape on a stick??


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## Mr. Right (Sep 27, 2007)

Well I haven't seen the griptape board yet but with more and more people doing kickflips on snowboards in videos, I'm not shocked...

This thread really went crazy, I had some good laughs reading through it. Burton makes good stuff, but a lot of companies do and for less money. When you spend $600 on a Burton board, fact is, you probably aren't going to get a piece of crap. Is it worth the $600? Not to me, no. To someone who likes Burton boards, yes. No I will never go look at Burton boards when I need a new stick but when I need boots or outerwear I will look to them. My Ions are sick boots comfortable, supportive, warm, and good looking (kind of like my girlfriend lol). Their gloves in general are warm and nice, as are their pants and jackets (although all the pink stuff is killing me, dudes just don't look right in a pink coat I don't care who you are...). This thread will never end.


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## Guest (Nov 15, 2007)

PaoloSmythe said:


> okay, so i feel that i have spunked my wad on this subject.
> 
> i have little more to offer and not being a pro-Burton person, but instead just someone who would prefer to sideways slide with those who know their own mind (as opposed to being corporate parrots; i'm not accusing anyone!) i will leave it at that.
> 
> ...


 Hm...well if you truly just want to know that then it seems you have had a lot of banter and defending Burton for nothing. You should've just said this in the beginning and not have wasted your time seemingly defending the company to no end and refuting people's opinions if they are not based in statistical or anecdotal fact...


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## PaoloSmythe (Aug 19, 2007)

^^^says the guy with a brand's icon for an avatar. 

get used on your own time buddy; if my time was wasted, at least it was during the explanation of my own opinion based on fact and not one that was fed to me.

this thread is about burton not being that great. it wasn't started by me saying burton is the best. the proof lies with those who endorse the mental of the thread's title.... this proof (aside from a passing mention of protecting intellectual property) is still to be provided. this to me, speaks volumes.


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## lisevolution (Sep 20, 2007)

He wasn't trying to protect intellectual property Paolo, he bought the patent purposely to try and make more $ for himself by enforcing a nothing patent...


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## PaoloSmythe (Aug 19, 2007)

lisevolution said:


> He wasn't trying to protect intellectual property Paolo, he bought the patent purposely to try and make more $ for himself by enforcing a nothing patent...


a _'nothing patent'_?

patents are for the protection of invention no? protection from others making economic gain from one's own inspiration? i fail to see the distinction. but maybe i would if i were able to review the minutae of the case and the subsequent accusations?

clearly his efforts to secure a _'nothing patent' _greatly affected him and the rest of the sideways sliding fraternity.  

storm in a heel cup anybody?


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## Guest (Nov 16, 2007)

PaoloSmythe said:


> a _'nothing patent'_?
> 
> patents are for the protection of invention no? protection from others making economic gain from one's own inspiration? i fail to see the distinction. but maybe i would if i were able to review the minutae of the case and the subsequent accusations?
> 
> ...


patent wasn't burton's, it belonged to bob webber. burton bought patent in 1990 and then attempted to strongarm the industry.


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## PaoloSmythe (Aug 19, 2007)

oh boy! we're getting nowhere fast are we?

i love this snowboarding malarky and so the last thing i would want to do, is buy a product, if the funds were to contribute to an owner, who would look to benefit himself *to the cost of us all*.

just as i don't go to america coz of the revenues inevitably going towards the war effort; 
just as i don't buy spanish coz they are a wasteful bunch of EU subsidised buggers; 
just as i don't buy israeli produce that were grown on (arguably) arab land!

so please, aside from someone trying to protect.....opps, _'strong arm' _(whatever that means) a patent they *legally owned*, why should i with-hold my hard earned cash from stuff with a _big B_ on it?

it seems that despite the spite, no one really knows......!


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## lisevolution (Sep 20, 2007)

Perhaps because Jake, Tom Simms and Chuck Barfoot all claim to have taken their inspiration from the Snurfer no the "Ski-Board" so by buying that patent it besically makes it a nothing patent to the industry due to the fact that it really did almost nothing to influence the growth of design and product in the industry. When Jake bought that Patent he was doing to strictly be Malicious with his intent to somewhat extort the snowboarding industry.

Again I have no problem with capitalist business policies and the "only the strong survive" business mentality as if I didn't I wouldn't be successful at my job.


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## Guest (Nov 17, 2007)

PaoloSmythe said:


> just as i don't go to america coz of the revenues inevitably going towards the war effort;


Now I don't know where you live, but I'm guessing it's in London, or somewhere in the UK, and if so, you're being quite hypocritical.


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## PaoloSmythe (Aug 19, 2007)

*lis *- for a self confessed capitalist, why would you presume burton's actions were motivated by malice and not economic security? 
why would there still be resentment even to this day, in here, if a 'nothing patent' ultimately had no influence in the industry? why not just, "let him have it and it bolox to him!"?

*jw* - i try to give examples to explain why i am interested in this burton issue, (so that people wouldn't simply presume that i am a jake lover) and you take one of them as a opportunity to criticise. well that's okay (and perhaps secretly, even wished for!) but this is not the thread to discuss such. needless to say, i think you are profoundly wrong, but if you have courage enuff, maybe your opinion of me can be thrashed out elsewhere?


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## Guest (Nov 17, 2007)

PaoloSmythe said:


> *jw* - i try to give examples to explain why i am interested in this burton issue, (so that people wouldn't simply presume that i am a jake lover) and you take one of them as a opportunity to criticise. well that's okay (and perhaps secretly, even wished for!) but this is not the thread to discuss such. needless to say, i think you are profoundly wrong, but if you have courage enuff, maybe your opinion of me can be thrashed out elsewhere?


hey, you're the one who brought it up. I didn't think this was the correct thread for political grandstanding either, but again, you're the one who brought it up.:dunno: You could have picked a different analogy.


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## PaoloSmythe (Aug 19, 2007)

i'm not even feeling mildly feisty about this. i make a point; i use an example to elaborate, the example is cricised.
i already acknowledged this isn't the appropriate place for poli chat and so i wait to see a new thread start if such a thing is desired?
but despite this, it is now not the example itself deserving criticism, but my simple selection of it! oh my!

this is a simple deviation from the initial point, (what's so bad aboot Burton?) and then the secondary point (why am i a hypocrite for exercising a choice?)

but i guess it is better to just repeat what was already said....?


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## Guest (Nov 17, 2007)

lol, you seem a bit worked up.


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## Snowjoe (Jul 3, 2007)

Jwilliam said:


> lol, you seem a bit worked up.


If you think he's worked up now then you aint seen nothing son!

Batten down the hatches all hell could break loose


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## PaoloSmythe (Aug 19, 2007)

Jwilliam said:


> lol, you seem a bit worked up.


you wish fella.  

there is no stress from me asking questions that gain no ansa; i merely assume that wouldbe respondents / detractors either can't or won't respond.
this is either due to a lack of courage or knowledge on their part; neither of which are my concern.

public forums like this have no admission policy; morons contribute alongside braniacs.....
situations like this simply help others to determine who is who.

that is hardly something to get 'worked up' over now is it?


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## Guest (Nov 18, 2007)

the tone of your replies suggest otherwise.

I was simply trying to point out that your politically charged analogy is one huge logical fallacy, and probably isn't well suited to this discussion. I didn't want to go in depth, as I've seen an "official politics thread" and this isn't it, but since you keep bringing it up and basically daring me to explain my comment, here goes:

clicky


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## PaoloSmythe (Aug 19, 2007)

Jwilliam said:


> your politically charged analogy... probably isn't well suited to this discussion.


which is why i said:

_but this is not the thread to discuss such_
http://www.snowboardingforum.com/general-board-talk/1748-burton-not-great-8.html#post19598

_i already acknowledged this isn't the appropriate place for poli chat_
http://www.snowboardingforum.com/general-board-talk/1748-burton-not-great-8.html#post19678



> I didn't want to go in depth, as I've seen an "official politics thread" and this isn't it, but since you keep bringing it up and basically daring me to explain my comment


i just want to find out what is soooo terrible aboot the _Zee Evul Burton machine of global domination_..... that is what i keep 'bringing up'. 

meanwhile:

http://www.snowboardingforum.com/general-board-talk/1748-burton-not-great-8.html#post19555
http://www.snowboardingforum.com/general-board-talk/1748-burton-not-great-8.html#post19606
http://www.snowboardingforum.com/general-board-talk/1748-burton-not-great-8.html#post19711
http://www.snowboardingforum.com/general-board-talk/1748-burton-not-great-9.html#post19729

but at least this last post threatens to take these _'personal differences of distraction'_ to a more appropriate place; and for this, i applaud you!

and so...... what is so wrong about Adolf Burton...oops..... Jake Hitler..... oops.... Himmler Burton....oh forget it....!


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## T.J. (Aug 28, 2007)

PaoloSmythe said:


> which is why i said:
> 
> _but this is not the thread to discuss such_
> http://www.snowboardingforum.com/general-board-talk/1748-burton-not-great-8.html#post19598
> ...


troll! are we going to have to start calling you MDPaolo? :cheeky4: :cheeky4:


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## Guest (Nov 18, 2007)

Didn't know we were treating this like an official debate Paolo... got your case-points and counter-points all ready to fire at the opponents lol.

This is going to be one of them threads that will keep going and going kinda like the energizer bunny.


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## PaoloSmythe (Aug 19, 2007)

i'm just staying on topic, you trouble making buggers!


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## lisevolution (Sep 20, 2007)

Paolo, at the end of the day there is nothing wrong with Burton and as a person with a capitalist mindset albeit an ethical take on capitalism, where I feel that there are "right" and "wrong" ways about accomplishing the higher economic goal I do appreciate what they have done for themselves in terms of creating the brand identity they have today. My problem with them stems from my personal negative experiences with their hardgoods and my negative take on the way they tend to do business with things like trying to enforce a patent which yes they legally purchased but did it for the strict reason of trying to muscle royalties out of competitors so they could enhance themselves while in a way potentially destroying what was and is still a huge growing market. Imagin if he was able to enforce and collect on that patent... how many other companies we wouldn't see today and how much the growth of this sport would have been reduced due to small companies not being able to compete due to having pay royalties to Burton in order to produce snowboards. 

At the end of the day everyone has their opinion and that's fine with me. You don't have to agree with me and I don't have to agree with you. All in all though I always enjoy a good discussion with other informed parties on topics, so I thank you for taking the other position on this thread and forcing people like myself to develop arguments to rebut your thoughts and keep the conversation moving progressively! 

To each his own, and long live the sport!


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## PaoloSmythe (Aug 19, 2007)

*lis *- many thanks! your opinion makes sense and is entirely agreeable. 

any disdain (from you at least,) is based upon personal consumer experience of their product. this is entirely reasonable, altho falls short in explaining the _'wide spread hatred' _Burton seem to receive.

the debacle over the patent might explain this broader contempt, however i am still curious as to how you are confident that the following is accurate:



> My problem with them stems from my negative take on (their) trying to enforce a patent for the *strict reason *of trying to muscle royalties out of competitors so they could enhance themselves while in a way *potentially destroying *a growing market.


personally this sounds like speculation, motivated by sour grapes, originating from competitors in a market already dominated by Burton (which beggars the question why such 'underhand tactics' needed to be courted in the first place.... even if the LEGAL enforcement of a patent can be considered to be in any way _underhand_!)



> All in all though I always enjoy a good discussion with other informed parties on topics, so I thank you for taking the other position on this thread and forcing people like myself to develop arguments to rebut your thoughts and keep the conversation moving progressively!
> 
> To each his own, and long live the sport!


right back at ya buddy! but it's not a 'sport'!


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## sedition (Feb 8, 2007)

T.J. said:



> i'm sorry your boots make you feel homosexual but check your derogatory statements at the door please.


What he said. 

More over, saying shit like that just makes you look like an idiot.


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## sedition (Feb 8, 2007)

Best post of the whole thread:



PaoloSmythe said:


> you are of course entitled to your opinion, and people's perceptions are as they are.
> 
> however (and my chosen language is used to emphasise my disagreement on this and not to insult) if this is an honest perception, then it is so far removed from reality, it is absolute bullshit.
> 
> ...


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## Guest (Nov 30, 2007)

I hope I am asking this question in the right area...so here it goess. I have been snowboarding on and off for a few years now and I just recently bought my first board. I am looking for some good bindings. I was looking at the Burton Mission bindings, but after hearing all the comments I am not sure anymore. I am open to any brands that will last me a long time and are not too expensive. If at all possible I would like to keep my budget between $75-$125. I was looking at sierrasnowboard.com and their 2007 models are selling too fast. Any suggestions would be appreciated.

By the way, I am 5'9, 160lbs, size 12 foot, ride regular.

Thanks


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## Guest (Nov 30, 2007)

mpdsnowman said:


> Ok well at least let me do my pre lock dance....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


original doesnt mean its the best


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## PaoloSmythe (Aug 19, 2007)

mustang6767c said:


> I hope I am asking this question in the right area...


well..... no you're not..... but who cares?


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## PaoloSmythe (Aug 19, 2007)

Nikolai said:


> original doesnt mean its the best


for sure! England brought you ice hockey and we suck!


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2007)

Snowolf said:


> For around $140 you can pick up Rome Arsenals and they are an awesome binding. For the $75 ranger, the Ride LX is decent. granted, it`s $90 binding but I have had real good luck with them.


Actually the Arsenals from last year can still be found from $100-120 at some sites.


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## Mysticfalcon (Nov 27, 2007)

Well Ive been boarding for 5 years now and I just bought my 2nd Burton board. We have a shop around here that sells Burton for 25% off to the locals. It is a mostly Touristy place but that brings in the locals too and gives us a good deal. For my money Ive always been happy with the Burton gear Ive had.


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## swmike (Aug 16, 2007)

I agree! 

As a family we've returned more Burton stuff for warranty than everything else combined. There are now 6 of us riding my my immediately family. In fact, we've returned like 5 things to Burton and none anywhere else... and we use about 50-50 Burton to other. I would love to know more about other brands - but there is very little you can do to research boards except to just try em. And that is the last thing I want to do when I get to the resort - if I'm even there when there are demos.




Snowolf said:


> Oh yeah, I agree they make great gear. That new binding this year with the pull tightener is very innovative. I have just noticed that their boards and bindings tend to run a bit pricey by comparrison.


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## PaoloSmythe (Aug 19, 2007)

the proof of the puddin' IS in the eating.

stuff the missus and i have returned...

- a burton plank that delammed..... no stress got a new one in a month (limited edition too)

- a westbeach coat that split on a major seam..... bit of hassle; no exchange just refund... but was okay seeing as it was post warranty

- rome binders with a split hi-back.... no stress, got sent replacement backs from the following year's model (and an invoice for $30!!!?) 

- vans boots which were agony due to being riddled with manufacturing defects.... free collection and then replacement 6 months later (plus free polo shirt)

- NFA jacket with a bust zipper.... told to fuck off, not in any way interested in exchange refund or anything else (due to bought in canuck and post warranty period)

and that might be it......


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2007)

a rep from k2 came in and showed me how to break burton boards. if you have one look at the construction of the edge and where it stops...at the tip right? well face the board out (with the base facing you) and give a good push with your hands....every damn time you will snap part of the edge/base off. its pretty ridiculous. also, if you look at the new t6 you can see the inner body at the top of the board because its see through. if you put any kind of hard pressure on that area, it will break. now look at an atomic or gnu board. the edge stops about where the effective edge ends. thats like that on purpose..to prevent de-lams or any kind of edge pickup. 

everyone at my shop breaks burton boards all day because of how seriously shitty they are...

and as far as giving the people in the shop any kind of product information, they dont. they dont even show up to demo days..

and seriously every damn company makes fun on burton...except forum who is owned by burton.


if you want a serious nice board this year, get the riders choice banana magni trax. look at the tips, its all plastic/fiberglass. you can beat the HELL out of it and it wont harm it. and the banana tech is amazing....


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## PaoloSmythe (Aug 19, 2007)

ribbed said:


> a rep from k2 came in and showed me how to break burton boards.


ah the joys of 'industrial espionage'.

albeit at a micro level... but watch the kids suck it all up


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## Guest (Dec 3, 2007)

On some of you guys opinions I agree, but on some disagree. I have an 07 burton Dominant and real old burton missions. I agree that they are over priced, but my board was half off. I was looking at a rome artifact and rome agent, but the burton was actually cheaper and I had heard only good things about the dominant. I hate the missions, the cranks slip notches and wont always open, but i make do with what I have. I love my dominant. Burton can be compared to Apple computers. Way overpriced, great computers though. 75 dollars for a new powerbook charger is ridiculous, but the products are great. there is a reason why Apple is an industry standard for Video and Photography production, and there is a reason that Burton is in a way an industry standard for snowboarding. Overall, they are great at marketing. When a newbie learns about snowboarding, they learn about Burton because they are agressively marketing to that demographic, that is not to say that there products are horrible, but you would see other brands on newbies if the brands actively marketed to the incoming crowd.


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