# Beater Cars. Whats best?



## Justin (Jun 2, 2010)

being that you are in van there should be alot of stolen civics for sale in the surrey area. if none of those are available i would look at the ford focus. i usually drive gmc products but the focus was a very good car.


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## CMSbored (Apr 2, 2009)

Subarus are good, as are toyotas like the tercel 4wd. they are everywhere and decent in snow and alright gas mileage. wagons hold all you need.

if thats not your cup of tea. any front wheel drive car will work good. get snow tires and bring chains with you.


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## C.B. (Jan 18, 2011)

get a honda


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## grafta (Dec 21, 2009)

Justin said:


> being that you are in van there should be alot of stolen civics for sale in the surrey area. if none of those are available i would look at the ford focus. i usually drive gmc products but the focus was a very good car.


Haha, awesome! Mm, yeh ford focus size is nice too. Liking hatchbacks as well


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## grafta (Dec 21, 2009)

C.B. said:


> get a honda


A lot of the older Hondas I see look shit... rust etc


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## turbospartan (Oct 27, 2010)

something AWD...

Eagle Talon / Mitsubishi Eclipse TSi or whatever they were called (old ones, not new ones). 

Can find those for pretty cheap and I think they're pretty reliable. 

2001 or earlier Audi A4 (I have a 2004) you could probably get for 2-3k, great in snow. Maintenance a little more expensive, but if you take care of them they last forever.


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## CMSbored (Apr 2, 2009)

turbospartan said:


> something AWD...
> 
> Eagle Talon / Mitsubishi Eclipse TSi or whatever they were called (old ones, not new ones).
> 
> ...


he said a beater car. i wouldnt put audi in that lineup

http://vancouver.en.craigslist.ca/van/ctd/2609544338.html now thats a beater haha


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## grafta (Dec 21, 2009)

CMSbored said:


> he said a beater car. i wouldnt put audi in that lineup


Yeh, Tsi a bit low to the ground for my liking too. Still not convinced I need AWD/4WD either, uses more gas and drive train can get expensive if it needs work.

I had a Toyota Caldina 4WD in NZ. It was good but a little big for city driving and felt like I was wasting power on spinning all four wheels...


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## grafta (Dec 21, 2009)

1987 Toyota Tercel SR5 now thats a beater haha[/QUOTE]

sick! lol 321,000 kms! :thumbsup:


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## roremc (Oct 25, 2009)

I bought my 91 Dodge Caravan in Van 3 years ago. Still goes really well. Only had a few minor problems with it. Great on gas and if driven carefully its great in the snow. Mine only had 145K on it at the time and I got it for $1100 with an Air Care cert. Check around White Rock. Loads of oldies living there selling low KM cars.


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## CMSbored (Apr 2, 2009)

grafta said:


> sick! lol 321,000 kms! :thumbsup:


not even broke in yet. haha


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## grafta (Dec 21, 2009)

roremc said:


> Check around White Rock. Loads of oldies living there selling low KM cars.


good tip, thx yo


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## C.B. (Jan 18, 2011)

grafta said:


> A lot of the older Hondas I see look shit... rust etc


well you said beater car, honda's slogan should say "Looks like Shit, Goes through Hell"

cheap, low maintenance and if you don't get >225k miles you either crashed or skipped basic maintenance.


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## Karasene (Oct 20, 2010)

I'm looking for a beater car this winter also for up in Anchorage. 
Problem is I can't decide if I should sell my 81k mile Hyundai Tiburon to try for some extra cash to go towards a winter beater.. (I owe $3k on it but can get 4.5K for it) or if I should just keep it and put it in storage and keep my payments.. a $700 beater car would be perfect haha. Hopefully I'll meet adn make friends with a mechanic when I get there. 

That Toyota looks like a beast.:thumbsup:


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## grafta (Dec 21, 2009)

C.B. said:


> well you said beater car, honda's slogan should say "Looks like Shit, Goes through Hell"
> 
> cheap, low maintenance and if you don't get >225k you either crashed or skipped basic maintenance.


very true, mechanically Honda is solid. Just not used to seeing so much rust on the road. Back in NZ you'd fail inspection and it'd be off the road. How does that work here in BC?


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## grafta (Dec 21, 2009)

Sorry C.B. more a question for people from BC re: how that works here


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## snowklinger (Aug 30, 2011)

can't go wrong with honda and toyota. in that part of the country rust is going to be an issue with any "beater", but the hondas and toyota's are all front wheel drive and will run the longest with the least attention.


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## CMSbored (Apr 2, 2009)

subarus run a long time too. as do older hyundais and suzuki


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## grafta (Dec 21, 2009)

CMSbored said:


> subarus run a long time too. as do older hyundais and suzuki


I try to avoid doing searches on craigslist that include subaru, just cos I always wanted a forester.

Stupid reason but...


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## CMSbored (Apr 2, 2009)

grafta said:


> I try to avoid doing searches on craigslist that include subaru, just cos I always wanted a forester.
> 
> Stupid reason but...


I love my fozzy. runs great and goes everywhere i want to go.


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## garlicbread (Oct 23, 2010)

i currently drive a 99 monte carlo i bought for $1500 that is pretty much an animal in the snow. the car rides smooth as hell and i really enjoy driving it in all conditions, but the intake gasket just went and i need to get that done. this thread has me considering selling it and grabbing an older legacy or forester, craigslist in my area is loaded with them for $800-$2000.


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## grafta (Dec 21, 2009)

CMSbored said:


> I love my fozzy. runs great and goes everywhere i want to go.


Dammit, yeh i only hear good things about baru's. Who can tell me something bad so I don't want one.
It'd be sure nice to know you'll always make it up the hill even if it's pukin'.


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## grafta (Dec 21, 2009)

garlicbread said:


> i currently drive a 99 monte carlo i bought for $1500 that is pretty much an animal in the snow. the car rides smooth as hell and i really enjoy driving it in all conditions, but the intake gasket just went and i need to get that done. this thread has me considering selling it and grabbing an older legacy or forester, craigslist in my area is loaded with them for $800-$2000.


Wow, 800-2000 is GOOD (unless they're fucked lol)


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## grafta (Dec 21, 2009)

Rally Car - Subaru Justy

THIS


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## CMSbored (Apr 2, 2009)

She's treated me well


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## Argo (Feb 25, 2010)

grafta said:


> Dammit, yeh i only hear good things about baru's. Who can tell me something bad so I don't want one.
> It'd be sure nice to know you'll always make it up the hill even if it's pukin'.


People always talk up subaru awd cars but I pull them out of snow banks and >4" deep snow all winter long. I would opt for the higher clearence on a vehicle and front or 4x4. Couple of guys at the hospital swear by their vw eurowagons. Both have older ones. Both live over a mile back on unplowed roads. One in breck and the other outside of vail. My truck is definately not cheap but ill swear by big heavy 4x4. Mines a dodge 1 ton 4x4 megacab. Lifted with 35" tires.... diesel motor. I keep a tow strap with me.... for pulling subarus back onto the road and outta snow banks.


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## Argo (Feb 25, 2010)

Cms, is that your driveway? Its definately not what I would call challenging terrain.


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## CMSbored (Apr 2, 2009)

Lol not challenging. plus its just a car, not a rock crawler (jeep for that). Ive pulled out a couple s10 blazers, a jeep liberty, and a land rover from snow and mud. ive also blasted through 16in of snow for a few miles with a drift every once in a while. its all driver.

also, i know its limits and dont go past them, never been stuck

Id take a subaru over any truck on icy roads any day. but deep snow and a little weight in the back your dodge probably rocks


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## grafta (Dec 21, 2009)

Driver over-confidence and a little "its a 4x4 bro" and yup, over the bank she goes. Get a Justy and drive off banks on purpose?


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## chupacabraman (Jul 30, 2009)

All good suggestions. Old Subaru would be my top choice though for sure! (and what's great about the old ones is that you can lock-on the AWD... a huge advantage over newer models)


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## CMSbored (Apr 2, 2009)

yeah, my brothers old brat was a beast with it locked in. my 03 is a manual so it has a viscous slip differential with power at 50%front 50%rear unless front or rear slips then it transfers power. almost 4wd but still just awd.


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## grafta (Dec 21, 2009)

chupacabraman said:


> All good suggestions. Old Subaru would be my top choice though for sure! (and what's great about the old ones is that you can lock-on the AWD... a huge advantage over newer models)


Interesting. So older models you could lock all four wheels together, so no limited slip even if traction breaks on one wheel? Could you unlock so part time 2WD?

Sorry, prob a stupid question. Not so 4WD savvy here


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## CMSbored (Apr 2, 2009)

some older ones i think you could. but not %100 sure

the newer automatics can go 2wd but you are not supposed to


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## grafta (Dec 21, 2009)

1991 Subaru Loyale wagon

"Selectable 4wd(push a button on the gear shifter to turn it on or off)."

That's pretty sick. Not an exciting car (Leone), but fairly tricked out none the less


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## chupacabraman (Jul 30, 2009)

That looks like a good deal. Timing belt is important, and it has that done. I'd go check that car out if I were you... and if it's good give him $800 no more.
Also, I think there's some stipulation in the Lower Mainland called "air-care" where you car has to pass emissions tests? I don't know the details about it, but for sure look into that before buying an old beater.
-- Edit --
Has winter tires, and those alone are worth $400+. Not that you need them in the Lower Mainland LOL.


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## CheeseForSteeze (May 11, 2011)

I'm not sure about the non-Imprezas, but the Impreza and WRX since MY 2000 (the bug eye models) use 3 visciously coupled differentials to distribute power. The central diff is a planeviscously coupled unit controlled hydraulic electronic instruments and distributes between the front and rear axles and one between the each wheel on each axle. The autos have a hydraulic clutch planetary gear type differential. The STi trades out the central differential for an electro-magnetically controlled mechanically coupled DCCD (driver controlled central differential) to distribute power forward and backwards.

If one wheel loses traction its lack of resistance to torque will case it to spin just like an open differential but upon feeling the lack of torque delivery, the center viscous unit will send as much torque as it can to the other axle (up to 65% aft or 35% fore). As long as both of those wheels have traction, you can usually drive. Now, the DCCD in the STi's is really trick because you can lock the axles together and do a 50:50 split. I have dug myself into some 2+ foot snow and managed to rock myself out with the DCCD locked. It drives like shit on clear pavement around turns though like this.

Anyway, if the other Subbie models are like this than some snow tires and common sense and you should be able to get out of just about any situation provided you didn't jackass your way into some real bad shit, shit which you be stuck in no matter what you drive, unless you have something like a Wrangler Rubicon with a winch.


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## Yes Officer (Sep 1, 2011)

If you can find my stolen 95 Acura Integra GSR you can have it bro. 5-spd 1.8L VTEC, great on gas, and was fun to drive.


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## CMSbored (Apr 2, 2009)

CheeseForSteeze said:


> I'm not sure about the non-Imprezas, but the Impreza and WRX since MY 2000 (the bug eye models) use 3 visciously coupled differentials to distribute power. The central diff is a planeviscously coupled unit controlled hydraulic electronic instruments and distributes between the front and rear axles and one between the each wheel on each axle. The autos have a hydraulic clutch planetary gear type differential. The STi trades out the central differential for an electro-magnetically controlled mechanically coupled DCCD (driver controlled central differential) to distribute power forward and backwards.
> 
> If one wheel loses traction its lack of resistance to torque will case it to spin just like an open differential but upon feeling the lack of torque delivery, the center viscous unit will send as much torque as it can to the other axle (up to 65% aft or 35% fore). As long as both of those wheels have traction, you can usually drive. Now, the DCCD in the STi's is really trick because you can lock the axles together and do a 50:50 split. I have dug myself into some 2+ foot snow and managed to rock myself out with the DCCD locked. It drives like shit on clear pavement around turns though like this.
> 
> Anyway, if the other Subbie models are like this than some snow tires and common sense and you should be able to get out of just about any situation provided you didn't jackass your way into some real bad shit, shit which you be stuck in no matter what you drive, unless you have something like a Wrangler Rubicon with a winch.


most dont have the dccd as i think that is more for launch control. but basically the same.


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## john doe (Nov 6, 2009)

If you are driving through snow then you need a truck. If you are driving on snow then you need the smallest lightest car you can get with snow tires. The lighter a car is the easier it is to start stop and turn. Plus it will be far easier to get unstuck should that happen.


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## S4Shredr (Oct 23, 2009)

Something like this: Subaru Outback

Reliable, plenty of space, and great for snow.


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## MarshallV82 (Apr 6, 2011)

I have an older Buick LeSabre (3.8L)

They are everywhere, and cheap. 

Mine had 114K now has 191K, never had an issue with it.. 

FWD, good milage for a bigger car, and it just floats down the road! 


On really bad days I take my truck though.. but then I have to pick up all the backcountry skiers with that open 8' bed, haha.


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## Justin (Jun 2, 2010)

MarshallV82 said:


> I have an older Buick LeSabre (3.8L)
> 
> They are everywhere, and cheap.
> 
> ...


buicks F.T.W. boating on land.


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## grafta (Dec 21, 2009)

john doe said:


> If you are driving on snow then you need the smallest lightest car you can get with snow tires. The lighter a car is the easier it is to start stop and turn. Plus it will be far easier to get unstuck should that happen.


Think this's the route i'm gonna go. Don't need much space and economy means we can go further without even thinking of gas costs :thumbsup:


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## MarshallV82 (Apr 6, 2011)

grafta said:


> Rally Car - Subaru Justy
> 
> THIS


Haha, I just bought one of these for my sister 2 months ago

for 700 dollars, runs good so far!


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## grafta (Dec 21, 2009)

MarshallV82 said:


> Haha, I just bought one of these for my sister 2 months ago
> 
> for 700 dollars, runs good so far!


Awesome! Not too many around here but i've got a month to look around


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## IdahoFreshies (Jul 9, 2011)

john doe said:


> If you are driving through snow then you need a truck. If you are driving on snow then you need the smallest lightest car you can get with snow tires. The lighter a car is the easier it is to start stop and turn. Plus it will be far easier to get unstuck should that happen.


do you have downs? When driving in snow to get the most traction weight is key. When starting the more weight, the more traction you have the easier it is to get going. When it comes to stopping the vehicle is the least important part in the equation, when stopping its all about the driver and his ability to gently apply breaks and prevent sliding. When turning weight really has no effect on that, as long as you are going slow enough and not sliding and there is enough tread on the tires to grab the snow there, you have turned. It doesent matter what vehicle you get stuck in the snow, if you get *stuck* you will probably need another vehicle to tow you out. If you had a heavier vehicle it will grab traction better and be easier to get out if you are only stuck a little. 

OP, if you dont feel like you want awd or 4wd then the only search criteria you need to look for is a front wheel drive car. That way (obviously) all of the weight of the engine and front of the car is on the drive wheels, thus giving you the most traction. Snow tires will be needed as will chains or cables (if fender clearance is minimal). Other than that its called a beater car for a reason. Its going to be cheap and probably a piece of shit. So just look for a car that has relatively low miles and is in good condition and doesn't appear to be abused. Happy shopping.


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## CheeseForSteeze (May 11, 2011)

CMSbored said:


> most dont have the dccd as i think that is more for launch control. but basically the same.


DCCD are in the STi's only. The WRX, Impreza and rest of Subarus use a visciously coupled unit for central power distribution, much like a torque converter except it has two output drives, obviously. They work on the same principle but DCCD is electromagnetically controlled mechanically coupled unit driven through clutchpacks and the lockup can be controlled through the driver C-Diff dial to achieve a drive bias from 35:65 up to 50:50 (the new generation might be able to go as much as 30:70).

Either way, you can get out of a lot of bad shit but anything really bad you're not going to get out of no matter what you are driving unless you have a winch.


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## C.B. (Jan 18, 2011)

IdahoFreshies said:


> do you have downs? When driving in snow to get the most traction weight is key. When starting the more weight, the more traction you have the easier it is to get going. When it comes to stopping the vehicle is the least important part in the equation, when stopping its all about the driver and his ability to gently apply breaks and prevent sliding. When turning weight really has no effect on that, as long as you are going slow enough and not sliding and there is enough tread on the tires to grab the snow there, you have turned. It doesent matter what vehicle you get stuck in the snow, if you get *stuck* you will probably need another vehicle to tow you out. If you had a heavier vehicle it will grab traction better and be easier to get out if you are only stuck a little.
> 
> OP, if you dont feel like you want awd or 4wd then the only search criteria you need to look for is a front wheel drive car. That way (obviously) all of the weight of the engine and front of the car is on the drive wheels, thus giving you the most traction. Snow tires will be needed as will chains or cables (if fender clearance is minimal). Other than that its called a beater car for a reason. Its going to be cheap and probably a piece of shit. So just look for a car that has relatively low miles and is in good condition and doesn't appear to be abused. Happy shopping.


dude it's simple physics, more mass more momentum, a light car will slow down faster than a heavy one(provided they have equal tire tread). a heavier vehicle will have more friction but that doesn't entirely compensate for the increased force to overcome. lighter cars have an easier time keeping traction.

When driving on compacted snow a lighter car is better. Breaking trail through fresh snow is a whole different story


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## IdahoFreshies (Jul 9, 2011)

C.B. said:


> lighter cars have an easier time keeping traction.
> 
> When driving on compacted snow a lighter car is better. Breaking trail through fresh snow is a whole different story


no, false. The heavier the car the better traction it will have. A light car may be able to stop a bit faster and not slide as much, but when driving in snow stopping fast is not the idea. Also stopping is just half the problem. I would much rather have to slow down slower and be able to drive out from a stop than slow down quicker and then be stuck there spinning tire because there is not as much weight on them.


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## SPAZ (May 2, 2009)

Yes Officer said:


> If you can find my stolen 95 Acura Integra GSR you can have it bro. 5-spd 1.8L VTEC, great on gas, and was fun to drive.


that sucks, how long ago?


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## skycdo (Sep 15, 2011)

Argo said:


> People always talk up subaru awd cars but I pull them out of snow banks and >4" deep snow all winter long. I would opt for the higher clearence on a vehicle and front or 4x4. Couple of guys at the hospital swear by their vw eurowagons. Both have older ones. Both live over a mile back on unplowed roads. One in breck and the other outside of vail. My truck is definately not cheap but ill swear by big heavy 4x4. Mines a dodge 1 ton 4x4 megacab. Lifted with 35" tires.... diesel motor. I keep a tow strap with me.... for pulling subarus back onto the road and outta snow banks.



AWD/4WD/4x4 isn't 100%. It's awesome for avoiding getting stuck but it does nothing to help you stop. Tires and common sense are the best recipe for being safe.


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## IdahoFreshies (Jul 9, 2011)

Argo said:


> People always talk up subaru awd cars but I pull them out of snow banks and >4" deep snow all winter long. I would opt for the higher clearence on a vehicle and front or 4x4. Couple of guys at the hospital swear by their vw eurowagons. Both have older ones. Both live over a mile back on unplowed roads. One in breck and the other outside of vail. My truck is definately not cheap but ill swear by big heavy 4x4. Mines a dodge 1 ton 4x4 megacab. Lifted with 35" tires.... diesel motor. I keep a tow strap with me.... for pulling subarus back onto the road and outta snow banks.


im with ya on that. If i could choose one vehicle it would be a big 4x4. The subie is nice for normal driving up to the hill. But when conditions are bad or there is a dump, we pull out the snow tank. Not as big as yours, but 07 4x4 crew cab f-150. Not only do trucks trump the awd cars and "euro wagons" on weight and solid traction, but with trucks you have the clearance to put on massive tires with huge tread pattern, which in itself makes trucks that much better in snow.


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## herzogone (Oct 19, 2010)

IdahoFreshies said:


> no, false. The heavier the car the better traction it will have. A light car may be able to stop a bit faster and not slide as much, but when driving in snow stopping fast is not the idea. Also stopping is just half the problem. I would much rather have to slow down slower and be able to drive out from a stop than slow down quicker and then be stuck there spinning tire because there is not as much weight on them.


Really, it doesn't have as much to do with weight specifically, as it does with distribution of weight and the amount of weight relative to the contact area of the tire. Talking traction only, for most real-world on-road situations in the snow, you want the as much weight as possible over the drive tires, and skinny, large diameter tires to penetrate the snow and contact the road surface underneath. I do agree that in this type of setup, all other things equal, a vehicle with more weight over the drive wheels will have better traction. Plow trucks are a classic example of this in practice.

On the other hand, a vehicle with a very large contact area for its weight would fair better in a situation with extremely deep snow, provided it was firm enough to support the vehicle, but I'm pretty certain no production road vehicle I've ever seen even comes close to the proportions necessary for any snow conditions I have encountered (it would have to look something like this). :laugh: Snowcats and snowmobiles work this way (tracks = very large contact patch).


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## Karasene (Oct 20, 2010)

You guys are all wrong.
The BEST way to get around in winter isn't a 4x4. 

Screw the beater idea and just get a sled. Not only will it get you to and from work in a blizzard you'll be able to find freashies all day. 

I Win.


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## IdahoFreshies (Jul 9, 2011)

herzogone said:


> Really, it doesn't have as much to do with weight specifically, as it does with distribution of weight and the amount of weight relative to the contact area of the tire. Talking traction only, for most real-world on-road situations in the snow, you want the as much weight as possible over the drive tires, and skinny, large diameter tires to penetrate the snow and contact the road surface underneath. I do agree that in this type of setup, all other things equal, a vehicle with more weight over the drive wheels will have better traction. Plow trucks are a classic example of this in practice.
> 
> On the other hand, a vehicle with a very large contact area for its weight would fair better in a situation with extremely deep snow, provided it was firm enough to support the vehicle, but I'm pretty certain no production road vehicle I've ever seen even comes close to the proportions necessary for any snow conditions I have encountered (it would have to look something like this). :laugh: Snowcats and snowmobiles work this way (tracks = very large contact patch).


yes, i agree with everything you said. Which is what i said...the more weight (on the drive wheels of course) the more traction you have. The other dude was saying that lighter cars are better in snow because (according to him) the lighter the car doesen't weigh that much so there isn't as much mass to get moving, so i was disputing that.



Karasene said:


> You guys are all wrong.
> The BEST way to get around in winter isn't a 4x4.
> 
> Screw the beater idea and just get a sled. Not only will it get you to and from work in a blizzard you'll be able to find freashies all day.
> ...


sadly not all of us live in alaska


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## Karasene (Oct 20, 2010)

IdahoFreshies said:


> sadly not all of us live in alaska


I don't live there yet. Have to file for unemployment sell my car and buy my plane ticket first.. but it's happening. Thinking a sled might not be a bad idea.


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## herzogone (Oct 19, 2010)

IdahoFreshies said:


> yes, i agree with everything you said. Which is what i said...the more weight (on the drive wheels of course) the more traction you have. The other dude was saying that lighter cars are better in snow because (according to him) the lighter the car doesen't weigh that much so there isn't as much mass to get moving, so i was disputing that.
> 
> 
> sadly not all of us live in alaska


Sorry, I didn't mean to come across like I was correcting you (I also didn't notice that I had omitted C.B.'s quote). I was just trying to elaborate for the benefit of C.B. and others who might have agreed with him, while also acknowledging that part of his line of thinking was valid, but not really applicable to road vehicles in normal situations.

The epic Patagonia trip, now moving to Alaska... I am so jealous of Karasene


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## CheeseForSteeze (May 11, 2011)

IdahoFreshies said:


> yes, i agree with everything you said. Which is what i said...the more weight (on the drive wheels of course) the more traction you have. The other dude was saying that lighter cars are better in snow because (according to him) the lighter the car doesen't weigh that much so there isn't as much mass to get moving, so i was disputing that.
> 
> 
> sadly not all of us live in alaska


Well, he has a point . In certain conditions, like a packed road or other loose surface, if we're talking about dynamic performance (i.e. traction with the car in motion), a 4WD car is going to fare better than a truck. The problem is getting stuck, these things don't have the attribute to dig themselves out like a truck could.

However, I contend that it's best not to get stuck in the first place by 1) being aware of what you can or cannot drive through and planning your route accordingly and 2) having a vehicle like the 4WD car (low weight) that you have extra margin of control over.

Case in point, the weekend of Feb 27, the East coast got a rare super dump that left about 20+ inches of heavy powder at Mount Snow. On the way through Massachusetts, I was following a Jeep Wrangler on the unplowed 91N and about 3 inches or so had already accumulated early Friday morning. The Jeep spun out of control trying to pass in the left lane, crossed the right lane and went into a ditch I doubt it was able to pull its way out of. Now, the econo car I was driving wouldn't have pulled out, either, but the fact I was able to avoid it altogether due to better dynamic traction (thanks to low weight) means it's a moot point.

If you're going to plan on getting stuck and want something that can dig out, you're going to want a winch for when all else fails.


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## labowsky (Sep 28, 2010)

atm i have a nissan 300zx TT i bought for $3500 not a beater at all, good condition. defiantly not for winter though haha


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## Yes Officer (Sep 1, 2011)

SPAZ said:


> that sucks, how long ago?


Oh god, long time ago, like 6 years ago.


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## IdahoFreshies (Jul 9, 2011)

the reason the jeep spun was because he was being a moron and trying to pass with unplowed snow on the ground, and because surprisingly jeeps suck in the snow (especailly wranglers) the reason is because of their super short wheel base. My friend has a wrangler and he said that the second he takes it out of 4wd when there is snow on the ground it starts to spin and fly around and becomes almost uncontrollable. I am assuming in your situation he was driving incautiously and made a mistake severe enough to cause hiss jeep to spin, even with 4wd. While moving if you were driving cautiously the weight or lack there of of your vehicle would do nothing to help you or hinder you in avoiding the wreck.

but internet arguing is pointless and i dont care enough to keep going. so im done.


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## Karasene (Oct 20, 2010)

Sorry this isn't relevant to the OP...

But lots of guys + a thread about cars+snow I'm thinking there's a decent possibility I can get away with asking a mechanical question in here hoping maybe one of you have some advice. 

I have the month of Oct to sell my car.. 
Its a red 04 Hyundai Tiburon, 5 speed with 81k miles. 
It has 2 major dents (Dents not my fault.. scratches maybe) This summer I replaced the Timing Belt, Water pump, Headgasket and radiator.. (dumb mechanic mis-diagnosed my cylinder 1 misfire/over heat and did the waterpump and timing belt when the whole time my radiator was clogged..) BUT it still needs the back struts replaced... and the electronic drivers window isn't working.. Kelly's Blue Book list it's value at private sale $5170 in fair condition.. I've already dumped money into it, I owe $3K on the loan... is it worth repairing the struts and window before trying to sell the car? I'm worried someone is going to say its not worth much when in fact it practically has a new fricken engine. Thinking I'll be lukcy to get 4.5k-5k on it now due to the dent damage??? 

I've never sold a car before.. so I'm in the dark on this. Just Criags list it and see what happens as is?:dunno:


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## Yes Officer (Sep 1, 2011)

Karasene said:


> Sorry this isn't relevant to the OP...
> 
> But lots of guys + a thread about cars+snow I'm thinking there's a decent possibility I can get away with asking a mechanical question in here hoping maybe one of you have some advice.
> 
> ...


Craigslist it, but be honest about the possible repairs. Also list the work you have done to it, and list it just above fair condition. Then take something in the ball park of $4500. If you do the repairs prior to the sale then obviously you can take more.


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## C.B. (Jan 18, 2011)

IdahoFreshies said:


> no, false. The heavier the car the better traction it will have. A light car may be able to stop a bit faster and not slide as much, but when driving in snow stopping fast is not the idea. Also stopping is just half the problem. I would much rather have to slow down slower and be able to drive out from a stop than slow down quicker and then be stuck there spinning tire because there is not as much weight on them.


dude are you serious? starting and stopping are relative, it all comes down to the friction between the tire and the surface it is being driven on. 

i am not wrong in any sense. it's not about overall weight, its about weight distribution in relation to the drive train, which is why fwd cars perform very well in packed snow/ice conditions. Rwd pickups, although much heavier, are terrible in equal conditions(like taking off from a stop).

look, where i'm from we have constant below freezing temps in our whole state for 4 months a year, a majority of the roads in this state in said time period are covered in packed snow, any argument you could have involving my lack of personal experience are completely invalid(not implying that you have stated any) 

here's my fleet of vehicles
04 Acura TL (fwd)
98 izuzu rodeo (4wd)
98 Ford F-250 (4wd)
(all with snow tires)

here's the circumstances in which i drive the vehicles 

Packed snow/ice- Acura handles best (which includes starting and stopping and corning)

Un-plowed roads or trails or any off road condition- Izuzu (same clearance and tire width as the f-250, but its much lighter and the horsepower per pound rate is higher) plus common sense could tell you that a lighter vehicle takes less force to get Un-stuck than a heavier one. 

Towing pulling or plowing- F-250-lots of weight and thats all its good for, the low end torque is nice also.


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## C.B. (Jan 18, 2011)

Karasene said:


> Sorry this isn't relevant to the OP...
> 
> But lots of guys + a thread about cars+snow I'm thinking there's a decent possibility I can get away with asking a mechanical question in here hoping maybe one of you have some advice.
> 
> ...


you'll be lucky to get 4g out of it, but really if you come out with more than you owe your coming out ahead, and that should be your goal


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## ev13wt (Nov 22, 2010)

First Gen. Toyota 4Runner. Buy one from the dry areas.

Best car ever.

Oh, and buy some winter tires, please. And don't drive them in the summer.


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## aiidoneus (Apr 7, 2011)

Living in Canada my whole life, and in an area that has snow and ice from Novemeber to April. The two most important things for winter driving are having good winter tires and practice.

AWD, 4x4 will only get you stuck farther and deeper if you don't know wtf your doing. Now, with that said if you have the first two down, it makes sense to get a good car too 

My picks:

Subaru impreza ... the non-wrx models have no power though, so they are not very fun to drive in the dry.

Honda CR-V ... I had a 2000 model that I only just got ride of, when I first got it I couldn't afford winter tires, needed bar money  ... It was one of the best wonter vehicles I have ever owned. It has no power, drives like a box on the highway, but fits all your friends and gear.

Mitsubishi Lancer ... I never owned one, but a friend of mine has for the last few years. Works well in the winter, hasn't had any major issues. 

The funny thing is, most of the time we take my girlfriends FWD golf, it has satellite radio, comfy seats, and lots of space. We some how fit 4 people and gear in that car ... like a damn clown car.


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## Milo303 (Apr 6, 2009)

Should be able to find 90's era Toyota pickup, 4X4 in your price range. Make sure it's got a 22RE motor, they're bomb proof. One of the best 4X4's ever made.


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## ev13wt (Nov 22, 2010)

The thinner the tire and the heavier the vehicle the better the traction in snow. 

If a pickup is unloaded, of course it will have no traction in the rear. Its meant to be driven loaded. See above statement.
In a fwd the engine is where? In the front. See above statement.

Any car is good, I will repeat it: Proper winter tires are the one and only secret. Once you have driven any car with good winter tires, you will understand completely.


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## herzogone (Oct 19, 2010)

Karasene said:


> Sorry this isn't relevant to the OP...
> 
> But lots of guys + a thread about cars+snow I'm thinking there's a decent possibility I can get away with asking a mechanical question in here hoping maybe one of you have some advice.
> 
> ...


I would recommend replacing them. I think it will help you get a better price, since even minor issues like you have shake the confidence of people who are looking for a usable car, and it invites low-balling, as you feared (at least in my experience). Those should be relatively cheap repairs. Two struts and a window regulator (usually the problem when a power window fails) total less than $300 in parts, assuming aftermarket. I've lost track of labor rates these days since I generally do my own wrenching, but both of those are fairly easy jobs on most cars. Of course, if you aren't in a hurry to sell, you could try posting it first as-is and see what you get, but if you are in a rush (like, hypothetically, you're anxious to move to Alaska :cheeky4: ) you probably want to replace them since it will likely help it sell faster.

If you're looking for a decent mechanic and can't find one by word-of-mouth, this is often a good reference: Car Talk Mechanic Files


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## luchadorjose (Mar 31, 2011)

2008 Subaru Legacy GT with blizzaks...driving in the snow, and lookin good doin it


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## GreatScott (Jan 5, 2011)

ev13wt said:


> The thinner the tire and the heavier the vehicle the better the traction in snow.


I've never heard that before but I have heard that if I start to lose traction with my AWD, I can deflate my tires a little to get more rubber on the ground (wider tire) and get me going again. What's the logic with a thinner tire?


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## grafta (Dec 21, 2009)

GreatScott said:


> I've never heard that before but I have heard that if I start to lose traction with my AWD, I can deflate my tires a little to get more rubber on the ground (wider tire) and get me going again. What's the logic with a thinner tire?


This applies if you are stuck in soft ground, ie sand or mud. Not sure about snow. Maybe soft deep snow, not so much packed snow/ice though?


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## GreatScott (Jan 5, 2011)

I've never personally had to do it. I know how to drive on ice/snow, I have a Subaru and I have good all-season tires. I've never been in any real extremes but I can easily drive through a foot of unplowed snow with little problems.

To answer your question with another question... isn't it the same problem, loss of traction? Deflating the tires a little puts more rubber on the ground, in turn, displacing weight over a greater area. Kinda like snow shoes.

As far as ice/hard pack goes... I'm not sure. I know snowshoes don't help on an icy slope, lol.

I really don't know and am only curious.


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## CheeseForSteeze (May 11, 2011)

IdahoFreshies said:


> the reason the jeep spun was because he was being a moron and trying to pass with unplowed snow on the ground, and because surprisingly jeeps suck in the snow (especailly wranglers) the reason is because of their super short wheel base.


I should mention I was able to switch lanes several times in a FWD car with 195/55/16 "all season" tires.


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## unxetas (Oct 11, 2011)

Gotta bump this. For under $2000? Buy my Volvo 850! 5 speed manual, FWD. Gone up to Cypress and Seymour plenty of times without snow tires even, but snow tires would make a hell of a difference. 

I normally drive an older Volvo 740 wagon in the winter, though. Winter tires will get me anywhere and RWD lets me look good doing it


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## grafta (Dec 21, 2009)

unxetas said:


> Gotta bump this. For under $2000? Buy my Volvo 850! 5 speed manual, FWD. Gone up to Cypress and Seymour plenty of times without snow tires even, but snow tires would make a hell of a difference.
> 
> I normally drive an older Volvo 740 wagon in the winter, though. Winter tires will get me anywhere and RWD lets me look good doing it


Thanks for the thought but then I'd have to drive like I'm driving a Volvo :cheeky4:

But seriously, probably a bit big for my needs...


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## unxetas (Oct 11, 2011)

Also regarding the physics of heavier vs lighter vehicles and how it affects grip.. It is true that the more load on a tire, the more grip that tire has available. BUT!! That relationship is nowhere near as much as the higher momentum that a heavier vehicle will carry. Grip is grip is grip, whatever the surface. There are subtle differences in how tires work in snow (hence the micro sipping and all that crap, that sucks balls on dry pavement) but a lighter vehicle, given the same conditions and tires, will work better. 

As far as skinny tires vs wide tires, not easy to find a consensus, but here's how I see it. A tire will deflect and flatten to a certain contact patch. The area of that contact patch depends on the weight of the vehicle and the inflation of the tire. Given the same car and the same inflation (PSI), a narrow tire will have a longer shape to the contact patch - think a snowboard down the fall line. A wider tire will have a short but wide contact patch - sorta like a snowboard across the fall line. Assuming ice or hard packed snow, the skinny tire might have better lateral grip (cornering), but worse longitudinal grip (stopping and going hehe..). On the other hand, skinny tires will cut through any loose snow/slush and grip the harder stuff underneath, whereas a wide tire might just skate over it. 

Can you tell that the race season is over..? I hate October. No more racing, no snow yet..


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## unxetas (Oct 11, 2011)

grafta said:


> Thanks for the thought but then I'd have to drive like I'm driving a Volvo :cheeky4:


Nothing wrong with that:
http://www.blenheimgang.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/Volvo850-BTCC1.jpg


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## JeffreyCH (Nov 21, 2009)

Hmm no one said anything about Nissan's? I picked up a 95 Pathfinder last year for around 700 bucks. Has the 3.0 v-6 plenty of power, and not to bad on gas (17ish mpg) it's not really heavy, but heavy enough being a 4x4. For the most part it ran n drove, but I did have to do some work to it. Front hubs so the 4x4 worked $80, had some rust through on the frame so I fish plated it 0$ (I'm a certified welder lol) new windshield $150, had to scrub the shit out of the interior it was nasty $30, so for about a grand I have a very solid ride that will take me anywhere anytime. Not to rusty for a salt road state.


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## ThunderChunky (Oct 1, 2011)

You guys shouldn't hate on Tercel's, my buddy has one and it gets almost 50 mpg. Call me a liar I don't care..


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## bubbachubba340 (Feb 10, 2009)

I have a 99 Jeep cherokee 4WD with a 2" lift, 31" tires and it does unbelievably in the snow. These can be had for around your price range and the 4.0L Inline 6 that came in most of them will often go forever! Not the greatest gas mileage (around 20 highway, more if you get a manual) but its worth it for the extra ground clearance and they can be found easily these days in your price range and usually with lots offroad goodies if youre into that(lift,big tires,bumpers, lights, etc.)

I caught the jeep bug:laugh:


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## unxetas (Oct 11, 2011)

You'd be surprised how much more expensive used cars can be here in BC compared to OR..


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## wrathfuldeity (Oct 5, 2007)

grafta, any car with good tires and a set of chains will get up Baker...there is only 3 hairpins to pay attention to and the last one is the deal breaker...if you have any doubts chain up in the chaining areas. The road is pretty well cleaned off unless you go really early or late. I've only chained up 3 times in 9 years in my old rwd volvos, corolla and tercel. Ya got to drive sensibly and enjoy the view/ride, ocassional black ice in spots, leave plenty of room to keep your self rolling when going up and plenty of room to stop/slow down when going down and you will be fine. If you can't do it with this, nobody can and they will have the road closed down...which happens 1-3 times a year.


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## eagle61 (Oct 19, 2011)

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## AtBothEnds (Oct 16, 2011)

GreatScott said:


> I've never heard that before but I have heard that if I start to lose traction with my AWD, I can deflate my tires a little to get more rubber on the ground (wider tire) and get me going again. What's the logic with a thinner tire?



The logic - as it has been explained to me by a tire shop guy - is that you want to have the most pressure possible between your car and the ground to improve winter traction. To do this you want to reduce contact area on your tires because, by doing that, you increase the pound-pressure per square inch exerted by your car on the road. The higher pound pressure of a narrower tire pushes the contact area of the car and the road together more than a tire with more surface area that will spread out the car’s weight.

Think of a football cleat gripping a field. It grips because there is higher pound-force per square inch between the end of each spike and the grass than there would be from a shoe with a flatter bottom where the pound-force lower with the weight spread out over a larger area. 

When you deflate your tires in mud or soft ground you increase the surface area that the pressure is distributed on so the ability of the vehicle to sink is reduced because its footprint is increased. You have to think of mud and snow driving differently; you want to travel on mud and not sink but with snow you’d ideally want to sink through it to get to the pavement.



Anyone correct me on this if I’m wrong.


To the OP: I’d look around for a mid-90s Tercel, Civic, Corolla, Sentra or Metro and be prepared to buy some good tires. If you’re in Vancouver you won’t be hitting very much snow until you get close to the mountains so a Subaru etc. would be cool but isn’t really needed. You don’t need anything burly in this area, just something solid for the last few KM of the drive. Even when I go to Baker I see a ton of Civics etc. in the parking lot and that can be a hairy road with awful snow. I drive a Sentra and it’s great for around here, I have good tires on it and I’m set. What you do want is an avalanche shovel to dig yourself out in the parking lots or if you slide into a ditch. I’ve had times at Cypress and Baker when it snows 6”-10” while I’m there and I’m parking on top of loose snow already, a shovel will be a big, big help at times, just ask the people I’ve dug out.
If you can go to the US to buy then look into that because it will be cheaper but you have to deal with importing it. Even if you buy a car in Vancouver and need tires think about going to the US to buy them.


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## unxetas (Oct 11, 2011)

By the way, I was serious about the Volvo for sale. 95 Volvo 850 non-turbo, 5 speed manual, great condition. Lots of crappy condition ones out there have brought the value of these way down. 1750 and it's yours. Not much bigger than a civic (sedan), easily fits 3 guys and boards, 4 is tough but possible. I can also sell you a 92 gmc Sierra half ton for 3 grand if you sell it back to me intge spring for 2.5! Lol..


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## IdahoFreshies (Jul 9, 2011)

Snowolf said:


> Oh yeah, and whatever car/truck/suv you end up with, get the tires siped! On compact snow or ice, a siped tire can increase your traction by 200%. Ask any local tire dealer about tire siping.


this! at first i didnt think some grooves cut into a tire could do that much, but i was out riding (dirtbikes) a couple of weeks ago with a guy who works at les schwab and absolutly swears by siping the tires. He went into depth about how it works and the benefits but i forget most of them...bottom line though, whatever tires you get, have them siped (its like $50 i think) and it will be well worth it. Im sure as hell having the brand new tires on the subie siped


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## bubbachubba340 (Feb 10, 2009)

What siping essentially does in the snow is allow for more flexing of the tread blocks to grip the road at the same time as giving the snow a place to pack into the tread. The snow that packs into the tread actually helps the traction of the tire rather than hinder it like this does in the mud. The extra snow on the tire grips the snow and ice on the road better than the rubber.


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## grafta (Dec 21, 2009)

unxetas said:


> By the way, I was serious about the Volvo for sale. 95 Volvo 850 non-turbo, 5 speed manual, great condition. Lots of crappy condition ones out there have brought the value of these way down. 1750 and it's yours. Not much bigger than a civic (sedan), easily fits 3 guys and boards, 4 is tough but possible. I can also sell you a 92 gmc Sierra half ton for 3 grand if you sell it back to me intge spring for 2.5! Lol..


Hey thanks for the offer. Unfortunately we need an auto trans... 'someone' doesn't drive standard  (not me either!)


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## Willbilly (Oct 11, 2011)

if you can find one my riding buddy drives an old Volkswagon Rabbit Truck diesel.

Its the perfect beater! Massive gas milage, its a truck, and it has a bed.


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## Kwanzaa (Sep 4, 2011)

turbospartan said:


> something AWD...
> 
> Eagle Talon / Mitsubishi Eclipse TSi or whatever they were called (old ones, not new ones).
> 
> ...


Tell me where you get get a 2001 Audi for that cheap? I just sold my 1999 for 8000. You've got your head in the clouds bud.


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