# Struggling with toeside turns



## Kingscare

Just with a quick view of that video, I'd wager people are going to recommend you ride with a more athletic stance.

The first toe side turn you do in that video, your legs are completely straight and this will certainly prevent you from keeping your balance while riding.

You would need to bend your knees more and be "at the ready position" (many sports have this position when you're waiting/anticipating a sudden movement. No need to bend at the waist, just bend at the ankles and knees and keep your upper body relaxed.


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## Cool_As_Cakes

another trick is to take your front shoulder, raise that arm parallel to the snow, and point it straight downhill. every time you want to turn, point that hand in the direction you want to turn. this will teach you to open and close your hips and shoulders more smoothly. 

your hips are your center of gravity so all full body movements start there, and it applies to boarding as well. your legs are just the conduit between your hips and the board. 

watch somebody good ride and you'll notice that on both toe and heelside turns their hips are in the exact same position and height from the snow. the lean of the turns just depends on the speed of the rider and thhe degree of the turn.

as far as the steeps go, the best way i caan describe it is to think of it like driving a manual vehicle. you can "feel" when its time to shift because of the tension in the engine. its the same with steeps turns. you can "feel" when the force of the turn allows the greatest transfer of energy to the ensuing turn. 

that is a bit of an advanced technique though. i suggest mastering your turns before trying steep turns.

i hope this helps


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## Guest

bend those knees and steer with your shoulders, easy peezy butter steezy
also be confident: if you think you're going to fall, you're going to fall it's that simple. just think "I am about to put this mountain in it's place which is under my feet"


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## ChubbyGuy

Cool_As_Cakes said:


> another trick is to take your front shoulder, raise that arm parallel to the snow, and point it straight downhill. every time you want to turn, point that hand in the direction you want to turn. this will teach you to open and close your hips and shoulders more smoothly.


I think this might have been like an older way of teaching how to link turns, but its been discouraged because pointing isnt really that responsive. It might eventually make you start to turn, but it will have to go from your shoulder, down your body, to your hips, then to your legs which takes a while and is not really how you should snowboard. Heres a good vid to watch, pretty cheesy though

Link snowboard turns -- SnowProfessor.com

The biggest problem i see with your linking turns is that you are "ruddering" your back foot, essentially steering with it, when you are supposed to steer with your front foot. This is why a lot of snow gets kicked up every time you turn toeside, which can make you easily catch an edge and fall. When your going straight and want to turn toeside, just put pressure on the toe edge of the front foot, and as you start turning (and you will if you are doing it right) then commit with the whole body.


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## lilfoot1598

The Rome Blue is a pretty stiff freeride board and might not be the best deck for timid riders still learning to turn confidently. I was having the same problem so I ditched my Arbor Eden for the softer Ride Rapture. My riding was instantly better. I bought the Ride on sale, knowing I would probably outgrow it within a season, so now it's my rock board.


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## Cool_As_Cakes

ChubbyGuy said:


> I think this might have been like an older way of teaching how to link turns, but its been discouraged because pointing isnt really that responsive. It might eventually make you start to turn, but it will have to go from your shoulder, down your body, to your hips, then to your legs which takes a while and is not really how you should snowboard.


actually, i believe its the new way. aspen snowmass teaches this and they only started within the past few years. they are trying to eliminate the "floating leaf" which leads to very bad habits that are very hard to break. I've taught people the shoulder turn and had them linking turns by the end of the first day.

to the point though, we still don't turn with our feet, we turn with our hips and the shoulder turn method teaches that. the feet and legs only connect us to the board. 

chop off your legs and as long as your strapped in somehow, you can still ride effectively.


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## Phenix_Rider

Cool_As_Cakes said:


> chop off your legs and as long as your strapped in somehow, you can still ride effectively.


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## ChubbyGuy

Cool_As_Cakes said:


> actually, i believe its the new way. aspen snowmass teaches this and they only started within the past few years. they are trying to eliminate the "floating leaf" which leads to very bad habits that are very hard to break. I've taught people the shoulder turn and had them linking turns by the end of the first day.
> 
> to the point though, we still don't turn with our feet, we turn with our hips and the shoulder turn method teaches that. the feet and legs only connect us to the board.
> 
> chop off your legs and as long as your strapped in somehow, you can still ride effectively.


Well, that would imply that steering with your back foot like a rudder is correct technique, because you would be turning with your hips, pivoting back and forth. This is universally not correct, and its a good way to catch snow and fall. Of course the hips play a big part, but its not the only thing. Turning starts with putting pressure on either edge of the board from your front foot and torsionally flexing it, then following through with shifting your weight as the edge bites in. Just turning hips wouldnt alone wouldnt lead to correct carving. And Im an experienced rider and my shoulders have nothing to do with how I ride. it does in the park for rotation and counter rotation doing tricks, but not regular riding


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## Cool_As_Cakes

ChubbyGuy said:


> Well, that would imply that steering with your back foot like a rudder is correct technique, because you would be turning with your hips, pivoting back and forth. This is universally not correct, and its a good way to catch snow and fall. Of course the hips play a big part, but its not the only thing. Turning starts with putting pressure on either edge of the board from your front foot and torsionally flexing it, then following through with shifting your weight as the edge bites in. Just turning hips wouldnt alone wouldnt lead to correct carving. And Im an experienced rider and my shoulders have nothing to do with how I ride. it does in the park for rotation and counter rotation doing tricks, but not regular riding


you're missing my point. i've been riding for a long time as well and i was taught the way you are explaning. 

the physics in what you are saying don't add up. if i'm at the pinnacle of a heelside carve, your first move is not to torsionally flex your front foot but to slightly close your front hip while releasing the previous turn's centrifugal force.

this allows an easy transfer of weight without fear of catch due to the fact that releasing that force creates a moment of zero gravity.

outside of park riding, at no point should your feet ever be out of alignment with your hips


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## Guest

Snowolf said:


> The ideal riding is done with a quiet upper body. You control your board from the waist down and balance from the waist up......


I don't see that as entirely true. It depends on the rider and their feel for the board. 
See a "quiet" upper body would only be needed for the rider who is trying to steer too much with the torso not allowing the body and board to twist as it does when you're linking turns. But as for initiating the turn, you need to point your shoulder in the direction you want the nose to steer because it presets your body for a smooth transition to the edge of the board. :thumbsup:
learning the turn if far from perfecting it.


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## Guest

RallyBowls said:


> But as for initiating the turn, you need to point your shoulder in the direction you want the nose to steer because...


*need* to? i disagree. i can absolutely initiate a turn without pointing my shoulder in the direction of the turn. so i don't *need* to do that.

as ever i agree wth snowolf. there's nothing wrong with subtly leading with the hand or the shoulder but if there's any suggestion that this is (primarily) the movement which is actually translating into board performance, conventional wisdom (and the aasi) consider it poor technique. do people do it? yes. it is *necessary*? no.

alasdair


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## Guest

yes, for the short C shaped turns you want your feet to do most of the board control while your upper body remains on a balance, but if you want to lay down some nice long graceful carves then you need to steer with your front shoulder. That doen't mean control. that just means where you want the board to point. it doesn't put any pressure on the edges; you need to lean forward or backward to do that. but the nastiest wipeouts happen when someone tries to engage their edge without pointing their shoulder at their intended target first. essentially it means get your upper body engaged, not just your head or your eyes.


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## Guest

alasdairm said:


> *need* to? i disagree. i can absolutely initiate a turn without pointing my shoulder in the direction of the turn. so i don't *need* to do that.
> 
> as ever i agree wth snowolf. there's nothing wrong with subtly leading with the hand or the shoulder but if there's any suggestion that this is (primarily) the movement which is actually translating into board performance, conventional wisdom (and the aasi) consider it poor technique. do people do it? yes. it is *necessary*? no.
> 
> alasdair


wow I'd like to see you ride b/c I know that if you were trying to turn without turning your shoulders, yes even subtly as you and snowolf say, then I think you'd have problems. Seriously, try using orange tape and put it on your front shoulder, if that shit doesn't move perceptibly the direction before the board turns, I'd be surprised. And like I said, if you're doing those short C turns it's easy to steer with the lower body so your shoulders don't do as much. but if you're just learning, or even having trouble with your turns, I doubt that overusing your shoulders is an issue.


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## Guest

i'll agree to disagree. have a great day.

alasdair


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## ChubbyGuy

RallyBowls said:


> wow I'd like to see you ride b/c I know that if you were trying to turn without turning your shoulders, yes even subtly as you and snowolf say, then I think you'd have problems. Seriously, try using orange tape and put it on your front shoulder, if that shit doesn't move perceptibly the direction before the board turns, I'd be surprised. And like I said, if you're doing those short C turns it's easy to steer with the lower body so your shoulders don't do as much. but if you're just learning, or even having trouble with your turns, I doubt that overusing your shoulders is an issue.


Well I pretty much ride without turning my shoulder alot of the time, and if I wanted to I could do it the entire day without moving my shoulder at all. Im not sure what the confusion is about? Using your feet and board=most response and contact with snow, quicker, better turns with better feel. Rotating shoulder= very little response to board, will turn eventually after everything rotates, which is not how you are supposed to ride. Ive heard of steering with the back front, the front foot, but really, steering with your shoulder? not the best way to turn


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## Guest

if the shoulders are perfectly aligned with the board the whole time, how does that make me incorrect?


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## Guest

RallyBowls said:


> if the shoulders are perfectly aligned with the board the whole time, how does that make me incorrect?


because you can't "_point your shoulder in the direction you want the nose to steer_" and still have your shoulders perfectly aligned with the board. they are mutually exclusive.

alasdair


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## Guest

Did I say rotate? hmmmm 
Maybe everyone is just confused and I conceed since I have not been generous enough to distinguish subtlties.
I feel with my feet, so I don't really make conscious decisions to "steer" with them, I just know that generally where my shoulder is pointing that's where I'm going and I start with that.


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## Guest

is there something complicated about the concept I'm trying to project?


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## Guest

just passing on some advice that I've found helpful.


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## Guest

yup, like I said, confused b/c I didn't distinguish subtlties. I dunno you're the instructor I'm sure you've helped more people than I have, I just remember that steering with my feet didn't do me any favors when I was starting out b/c keeping my body centered on the board used to be a problem for me especially on steep runs. it wasn't until my bro said "steer with your shoulders" that I really started getting the hang of it. so maybe it's just psychological.


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## Guest

^ you know, you're obviously free to ride (and explain how to ride) however the hell you like. the reason that snowolf and myself (and the entire aasi) are very deliberate in explaining and teaching in such a defined, structured way is that it's fundamental. if you build a solid platform of good fundamentals, then people can build on that successfully with well-considered progressions which demonstrably improve people's riding.

you can duct tape your feet to the board and fishtail all the way down the trail, throwing your upperbody round to steer the tail of your board all the way if you like. when you try to take your riding to the next level - say, on more challenging terrain - you're going to hit the limit of your technique and, possibly, hurt yourself.

i'm not sure i'm very sympathetic to your new "_don't shoot the messenger_" position. you have to take some responsibility as you chose to be the messenger in the first place...

alasdair


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## Guest

wow no one was confused except you and snowolf. and seeing as both of you put words into my mouth, I hardly see it as my fault for delivering advice that helped me progress into the snowboarder I am today. I'm always looking for ways to improve myself, but don't misinterpret me, you guys seem smart enough to avoid doing that. 

basically I said, this works. then snowolf said, no it doesn't. if I wanted the guy to rotate his shoulders, I would have said, rotate your shoulders. but i didn't. I said point. if you point with your front shoulder that connotates a whole sequence of motions for me, but if it doesn't for you, don't try to sell me this "your technique will limit your riding" crap because I'm not buying it.


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## john doe

RallyBowls said:


> wow no one was confused except you and snowolf.


I am very much still a beginning boarder and what you were saying seemed to contradict what Snowolf was saying. I also interpreted what you were saying as to rotate your shoulder to the direction you want to turn.


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## Guest

sorry for that. I'm pretty sure I posted first and well that's my advice take it or leave it.


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## Guest

RallyBowls said:


> ...but don't misinterpret me...


communication is a two way street. perhaps you were not explaining yourself very well. john doe's post seems to confirm that.


RallyBowls said:


> if I wanted the guy to rotate his shoulders, I would have said, rotate your shoulders. but i didn't. I said point. if you point with your front shoulder that connotates a whole sequence of motions for me, but if it doesn't for you


snowolf laid it out pretty clearly why the net of what you said equated to rotating...

i read your posts in the lift line thread. i'll just assume you're high and you're talking stoner bollocks 

alasdair


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## dharmashred

Kingscare: I always hear my dude yelling to me "BEND YOUR KNEES!!!" Works fine on heelside..don't know what happens on toes. The videos are great because I get to look at what I've done and say...OH thaaat's why i ate shit! Thank you!




RallyBowls said:


> bend those knees and steer with your shoulders, easy peezy butter steezy
> also be confident: if you think you're going to fall, you're going to fall it's that simple. just think "I am about to put this mountain in it's place which is under my feet"


Dude...I think my main issue is I'm in my head..I'm gonna say that to myself



lilfoot1598 said:


> The Rome Blue is a pretty stiff freeride board and might not be the best deck for timid riders still learning to turn confidently. I was having the same problem so I ditched my Arbor Eden for the softer Ride Rapture. My riding was instantly better. I bought the Ride on sale, knowing I would probably outgrow it within a season, so now it's my rock board.


Thanks Lilfoot, if I had done that anytime last season would have been cool, but dude I love my Rome, she's been good to me and I learned everything I know with her, she's responsive, holds the edges like a champ, and when i master what i'm asking her to do..she'll do it. I'm not backing down from her, I want to rise up to meet her. I rented several different boards before I picked up the Rome. I do want to try out a softer board soon though, when I'm ready to progress and start taking little jumps, but not until I ride my Rome right! The board isn't the issue, my form is. 


*Snowolf!!!* What can I say, your advice and encouragement has been invaluable to me every step of the way. I have always tried to remember to apply that pressure to the first foot first and let the back follow like you advised last season. I watched your videos over and over and the way in which you explain everything gives me effective tools I can (and have!) applied on the mountain. Many thanks!!!  I will conquer it...I want it so bad, more than anything I have ever wanted. Oh yeah...what the hell is going on with my arm... it's spastic!!! :dunno:

Thanks to everyone for all the great advice, next vid I post, I'll be down and dirty using that torso with the mountain _under_ my feet like "easy peezy butter steezy" [that said with the utmost respect to the mountain, I understand I am just a passenger and I sm ever humbled and grateful for the rides.] !!! 

Peace and love!


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## Guest

alasdairm said:


> communication is a two way street. perhaps you were not explaining yourself very well. john doe's post seems to confirm that.
> snowolf laid it out pretty clearly why the net of what you said equated to rotating...
> 
> i read your posts in the lift line thread. i'll just assume you're high and you're talking stoner bollocks
> 
> alasdair


sigh. I am almost beyond certain that if snowolf never posted, you would have nothing to say to me. I'm pretty sure if your turn your shoulders without doing anything with your feet, nothing would happen except that you lose your balance a bit. it's all the sequence of the body. but really you come in here supporting ideas that aren't your own and scrap my advice like you know better than me. I already said it was confusing and I apologized for that but seriously you won't convince me that you don't use your shoulders to turn not you and not snowolf so I don't see how putting words into my mouth and bashing me for it deserves any credit whatsoever.


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## Guest

Snowolf said:


> The ideal riding is done with a quiet upper body. You control your board from the waist down and balance from the waist up......


and really I could be wrong but isn't balancing part of controlling the board?


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## dharmashred

Snowolf said:


> A rider can transition from edge to edge all day long and do so aggressively so long as that board is tracking true with no side slip. You start rotating shoulders and you are going to pivot the board and hook a leading edge.


One more thing - my dude had me try this put your arms out like i'm doing ballet or some shit and use my head and 
shoulders to turn...and like clockwork....I caught that edge... Haard..every single effing time. After years of dancing, yoga and pilates, the flexibility and isolation of my body did not allow for this. I told him that shit was not working, unless the end result required me to eat mass amounts of snow at random periods throughout the run... now I know why. He said that's how his peoples taught him that way, but it always felt weird and wrong every time I tried.


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## jlm1976

*Couple points*

To the OP : 
Alot of advice(both good and bad) have been given to you. But, this is what I saw in the video :
1. You ride with your weight a little back. This is causing your front leg to be stiffer than your back. Collapse that front leg to bring your weight forward. This will allow you to twist the board like SnowWolf has said. With your front leg so stiff, you can't move your knee to generate twist. 
2. Your weight looks like it is staying on heelside even when on your toeside turn. In the first toeside turn in the video, you moved your weight to toeside and made a nice toeside turn, but you moved it too far to toeside so you lost balance and fell. Take the movement you did in that first toeside turn and dial it back a bit, make it smaller and softer.
3. When you change edges to toeside, you aren't following through with hips and shoulders. Your hips and shoulders stay rotated to heelside while you are on toeside. Try turning your hips and shoulders A LITTLE ahead of the board in your toeside turn like they are in your heelside. 

To SnowWolf : 


> For Dynamic Skidded turns, the rider rides down the grade with his shoulder basically pointed straight down the hill while the hips and lower body move underneath him making completed short radius C shaped turns. The rider is controlling the board 100% from the waist down.


Be careful with comments like this. You are describing one way to make a dynamic skidded turn. Really, any turn when the distance between the board and the riders hips changes is dynamic. It really doesn't have much to do with the upperbody. Personally, I use shoulder and hip rotation alot on steeps and bumps in the middle, "control" portion of the turn. But that's probably a topic for another thread.

As far as the arguement, I think we can all agree that some shoulder/hip rotation is ok, its more a question of the intensity of the movement.....


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## Kingscare

If you're having trouble bending your knees during toe side turns and not getting in that athletic position. Just concentrate on pushing your shins against the large tongue of your boots. The position is very comfortable and with the way snowboard boots are made it feels very natural.


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## ChubbyGuy

RallyBowls said:


> Did I say rotate? hmmmm
> Maybe everyone is just confused and I conceed since I have not been generous enough to distinguish subtlties.
> I feel with my feet, so I don't really make conscious decisions to "steer" with them, I just know that generally where my shoulder is pointing that's where I'm going and I start with that.


Youre not making much sense. At first you say to point with your shoulder and thats where you will go. Then you say you turn with your feet, and that your shoulder happens to be pointing the way youre going. Obviously, if you make a toe or heelside turn using feet etc and torsional flex as snowolf and others have stated, your shoulder is going to rotate after because your whole body is rotating. 

Therefore, the fact that you even argued about this and brought up the whole "shoulder pointing" method would suggest that you mean to point your shoulder, which will steer in the direction you want to go. If you had agreed that turning with your feet is correct (and it is) then there would have been no disagreement.


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## dharmashred

jlm1976 said:


> To the OP :
> Alot of advice(both good and bad) have been given to you. But, this is what I saw in the video :
> 1. You ride with your weight a little back. This is causing your front leg to be stiffer than your back. Collapse that front leg to bring your weight forward. This will allow you to twist the board like SnowWolf has said. With your front leg so stiff, you can't move your knee to generate twist.
> 2. Your weight looks like it is staying on heelside even when on your toeside turn. In the first toeside turn in the video, you moved your weight to toeside and made a nice toeside turn, but you moved it too far to toeside so you lost balance and fell. Take the movement you did in that first toeside turn and dial it back a bit, make it smaller and softer.
> 3. When you change edges to toeside, you aren't following through with hips and shoulders. Your hips and shoulders stay rotated to heelside while you are on toeside. Try turning your hips and shoulders A LITTLE ahead of the board in your toeside turn like they are in your heelside.


Thanks for the advice! Everything you're saying is spot on. On that first turn i felt that..I leaned all the way onto the snow! My head and shoulders do have that tendency to stay isolated while the rest of me carries on (not good!). My instructor on my first lessons saw I was struggling with this, he said sometimes people who do yoga and/or dance, etc. are more flexible and struggle with this method.  but then again...that's how he was trying to teach me with that wrong method and I don't have enough experience to know if his whole flexibility was legit or horseshit, in retrospect i think it's quite possible he was just whistling dixie :dunno: Felt wrong then still wrong now. The back foot is something I have certainly struggled with. This season I've tried to make it a point to be more aware of my body so I'm working on it. Thanks for taking the time to check out the vid and for the helpful suggestions! 



Kingscare said:


> If you're having trouble bending your knees during toe side turns and not getting in that athletic position. Just concentrate on pushing your shins against the large tongue of your boots. The position is very comfortable and with the way snowboard boots are made it feels very natural.


That sounds familiar...my entire 3rd day ever my dude took me to the top (Cornice Bowl in Mammoth) and I toesided the whole way down. Yes..ass first for the 1.5 hours it took me to get down! :laugh: He always new it was me coming, I was the only one facing _up_ the mountain. But point of the story is, when my legs got tired (there's a fucking surprise) i just leaned on my boots to give them a break. Good tip!

*Snowolf* what can I say? Thank you for the great tips and exercises, I will put them to use this weekend (DUMPING IN MAMMOTH ) You explain things so concisely and all of your advice is always constructive, positive and purposeful. [Insert Namaskar smiley] 

Thanks again to everyone for taking the time to respond!


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## SnowProRick

I know I am late to the party (no time to hit up message boards), but since our site & videos were referenced I figure I should say my piece.

The reason modern American (AASI) instructors don't like the shoulder method is that it is inefficient. Snowolf said balance from the waist up & turn from the waist down. I would mofiy that the say turn from the FEET up and balance with the whole body. Whatever you do with your feet goes right to the board with no "middle men" (the rest of your body).

Does shoulder steering work? Yes, that's how we USED to teach. There are lots of ways to snowboard, what AASI strives for is the most efficient and simple. Efficient means more time on the hill and less fatigue.

To the OP:
BEND YOUR KNEES!!
For the steeper runs (all runs) try to keep your shoulders and hips parallel with the snow. As the slope gets steeper, many riders level their shoulder to the horizon and get in the back seat, making it hard to turn. 

Look around the entire how to snowboard series on our site. There is even a video that might give you some stance ideas to try.

Have fun!

--rick
SnowProfessor.com


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## dharmashred

SnowProRick said:


> I know I am late to the party (no time to hit up message boards), but since our site & videos were referenced I figure I should say my piece.
> 
> The reason modern American (AASI) instructors don't like the shoulder method is that it is inefficient. Snowolf said balance from the waist up & turn from the waist down. I would mofiy that the say turn from the FEET up and balance with the whole body. Whatever you do with your feet goes right to the board with no "middle men" (the rest of your body).
> 
> Does shoulder steering work? Yes, that's how we USED to teach. There are lots of ways to snowboard, what AASI strives for is the most efficient and simple. Efficient means more time on the hill and less fatigue.
> 
> To the OP:
> BEND YOUR KNEES!!
> For the steeper runs (all runs) try to keep your shoulders and hips parallel with the snow. As the slope gets steeper, many riders level their shoulder to the horizon and get in the back seat, making it hard to turn.
> 
> Look around the entire how to snowboard series on our site. There is even a video that might give you some stance ideas to try.
> 
> Have fun!
> 
> --rick
> SnowProfessor.com


THANKS !!!!! Man, i had a great couple of days and i really got to work on not just my overall riding, but my powder riding...another thing...the powder i rode yesterday and today _forced_ me to dig in, and use the right form. I was super aware of my body position and the difference in the rhythm of the ride when my upper body was quiet )) and the rest of me just got down. Every time i sketched and tried to force the toeside turn in the powder today...no bueno! I wish i had video, but conditions were super shitty for that. 

I couldn't wait to update this post today because, as it happens, I heard 2 different sets of people saying "you need to turn with your shoulder!" It really is vital to progression to be taught the correct form and body trajectory (is that the right word??? :dunno: )

Giving the right information to people who are really willing to invest the time and effort in learning and going forward is invaluable. Breaking bad form and bad habits are wicked hard and brutally painful.... 

Thanks to everyone here who takes the time to really make sure the right info/tips/advice is given.


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## arsenic0

Maybe someone can tell me if this is wrong...i'd like to hear from someone like Snowolf...

The thing that helped me best on toe side turns was stopping myself from trying to push down with my toes and instead use my lower shins to basically push into the tongue of my boot if that makes sense...it seemed to really help me keep my balance more for faster carves...


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## arsenic0

Ok good, lol. Chances are i heard it in one of your videos or read it here somewhere and started doing it..it really made a huge difference.
For some reason when I pushed with my toes, i can get sort of ...confused? If that makes sense..where one foot is going toeside and the other is heelside...usually when im going fast and concentrating on not falling...which im sure is very bad...now its not really possible using my shins.


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## Leo

arsenic0 said:


> Maybe someone can tell me if this is wrong...i'd like to hear from someone like Snowolf...
> 
> The thing that helped me best on toe side turns was stopping myself from trying to push down with my toes and instead use my lower shins to basically push into the tongue of my boot if that makes sense...it seemed to really help me keep my balance more for faster carves...


Took the words out of my mouth. I bend my knees (more aggressively for more aggressive carving/skidding) then push with my shins. This is a prime example of why getting the right boots is so important. Same concept for heelside.

As for learning how to effectively do toesides, I personally practiced my toeside stops. I would get a good amount of speed and come to a complete toeside stop. The speed forced me to do an aggressive stop which meant I had to lean forward a lot more. I am not talking racer speeds or anything, just a good momentum. That is how I became comfortable with aggressive toeside leans. On steeps, I like to put my fist into the snow while I do toeside turns. Sort of leverage I guess, but for me it is just purely for fun. I don't recommend it though as a beginner. You might do some bad damage to the hand/arm if you bite it.


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## Leo

Snowolf said:


> Be careful though with this leaning. Often a newer rider gets into a really bad habit of using lean (inclination) as their only turning method and they do not use good lower body flexion (hips, knees and ankles). The steeper the terrain, the more you need to remember to lower your front shoulder and shift your body weight down the hill toward the nose of the board.
> 
> A good exercise to do for really getting the feel of this toe down pressure is to be riding across the flats in a straight line and play around with it. With only the front foot, apply slight pressure to the edge by pushing the toes down on the foot bed of the boot, then releasing. Doing this will give you feel of how a very subtle movement of the toes can steer the board. Once you get this concept and incorporate it into your riding with the other turn initiation tactics, your toes become your "fine tuning adjustment" Lean and driving the knee forward into the tongues of the boots is the power behind it, but these subtle movements really clean it up and make it a precise and smooth, stable turn.


You need to move to Michigan 

But yah, as I said I don't recommend what I do for beginners. This was just a way of getting rid of that "sketch" feeling I had when I do aggressive leans. I'd say being able to learn how to link turns effectively was one of the most rewarding feelings of snowboarding. I still remember when I learned how to do it. I was ecstatic!


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## hvalley76

Leo said:


> Took the words out of my mouth. I bend my knees (more aggressively for more aggressive carving/skidding) then push with my shins. This is a prime example of why getting the right boots is so important. Same concept for heelside.
> 
> As for learning how to effectively do toesides, I personally practiced my toeside stops. I would get a good amount of speed and come to a complete toeside stop. The speed forced me to do an aggressive stop which meant I had to lean forward a lot more. I am not talking racer speeds or anything, just a good momentum. That is how I became comfortable with aggressive toeside leans. On steeps, I like to put my fist into the snow while I do toeside turns. Sort of leverage I guess, but for me it is just purely for fun. I don't recommend it though as a beginner. You might do some bad damage to the hand/arm if you bite it.


I got into that habit for a while too. Imagine an axle passing through my body at my center of gravity (near the hips) that I would pivot on. It does feel cool to hang way out there on a long curve and you can get nice smooth turns without skids and get up to speed.

I ran into problems riding that way though. you are going to build up some pretty good speed like that. If you get into chop or over some dips that you don't see you're gonna catch air. The minute that board loses contact with the snow with all your body weight hanging out there POW...belly flop!

I dialed it back a bit and used more of the heel/toe flexing. That way if i catch some unexpected air I can keep the board underneath me!


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## Leo

Snowolf said:


> The two basic techniques here are known as Inclination and Angulation. Inclination is this aggressive lean; also known as a cross over turn. You lean your entire body to edge the board. Works very well in smooth, firm snow. Angulation is using flex of the ankles, knees and hips to edge the board while keeping the body over the board. Very effective in very soft snow and on hard or icy snow. Anytime edge hold is questionable, you should employ Angulation rather than Inclination...:thumbsup:


Great tip. I am usually in firm snow here in Michigan. I do have some rare powder days and you are absolutely correct. The lean does not work in that situation. Slush too. It's more like surfing in water in those cases. Lean too much and you wipe out. :thumbsup:


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## dharmashred

Update!! Fri and Sat were all powder riding with low visibility. Was able to get some footage on Monday, but the cam pooped out on Tuesday. Nonetheless, I want to thank all of you, especially Snowolf. I took one lesson, and my dude tried to teach me, but never could explain anything in a way that made any sense and didn't make me want to punch him . 

Here's the latest vid: YouTube - After the Storm (sorry, the vid's a little long...the latter half is better!)

The last video I rode my Rome 151, this vid I broke in the Roxy 157, she is fast but I felt in control and really fluid.


*Snowolf* I watched your videos over and over and all of your tips and advice has really been what has gotten me to the point I am in my progression now. I taught myself and read and reread your tips over and over and would not be at this point now if not for you. I can't thank you enough!  Do you give lessons during the summer as well? 

Struggled a bit on Monday with bending my knees, but got better as the day progressed. By the end of Tuesday, the fucking light turned on! (but the camera was off  ) I practiced those crossover turns and my upper body was much more quiet. I felt the lean and finally really felt the ankle flexion. Keeping my shoulders parallel to the board and allowing my ankle flexion to engage the turn I was able to transition smoothly (and faster than ever!) from edge to edge. This trip was the first time it began to feel natural to me, like I didn't have to think about what the hell i was gonna do next, but that i just rode with it. This trip was epic for me!

Thank you to everyone here who takes the time to give advice to us newer riders. Thanks especially to everyone who took the time out to watch my video and give great advice, it really helped me pull it all together!


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## TomNZ

dharmashred said:


> This trip was the first time it began to feel natural to me, like I didn't have to think about what the hell i was gonna do next, but that i just rode with it. This trip was epic for me!
> 
> Thank you to everyone here who takes the time to give advice to us newer riders. Thanks especially to everyone who took the time out to watch my video and give great advice, it really helped me pull it all together!


Congrats, sounds like you're finally over the "hump".  The first few days are always hell, then you just "get it" and it's the most awesome feeling in the world .


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## dharmashred

TomNZ said:


> Congrats, sounds like you're finally over the "hump".  The first few days are always hell, then you just "get it" and it's the most awesome feeling in the world .


Thank you!  It really is an amazing feeling  . I've struggled so much and been injured so many times, but never gave up, and this past weekend was like the culmination of it all. Now it's just practice practice practice! I'd like to move on to tricks and little jumps by the end of the season, once I really nail down the fluidity of my riding.


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## laz167

Looks good, the only thing I would say is to try to put that rear arm relaxed by your rear leg or behind it try not to throw it in front of you as it will unbalance you. And straighten up your upper body don't lean forward at the hips. If you have carpet at home strap up and hold on to a chair, practice rocking back and forth on your toe/heel edge. Once you get good balance loose the chair and do the same by rocking back and forth. This will give you the feeling of balancing on your edges and eventually allow you to stop leaning forward at the hips. Try it when you get back on the slope on a flat run, until you get confident to try it on a steeper run. I hope that made sence By the way nice runs at that mountain,wish I had wide runs like that here.


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## lilfoot1598

Looking better and better! :thumbsup:

I know what you mean about that moment when it all just comes together - I had one of those myself last weekend. Best feeling ever! Enjoy!


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## dharmashred

lilfoot1598 said:


> Looking better and better! :thumbsup:
> 
> I know what you mean about that moment when it all just comes together - I had one of those myself last weekend. Best feeling ever! Enjoy!


Awesome! Thanks lilfoot! Seems like we're on the same path to progression, right on chica!


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## Leo

I want to move to Oregon now :/

I'd be bugging you to help me with my butters all day long lol. I bet you'd love my Husky pup too 

Dharma: You are looking much better. Way to go! You definitely have the dedication to learn so keep that up and you'll be progressing at a brisk rate. Feels good to finally link those turns the way that you want doesn't it? I'd have to say that was the best moment in my snowboarding life. More so than landing my first Indy off a jump lol.


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## baldylox

Looking real good! Try to keep those shoulders in line with the board. :thumbsup::thumbsup:


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## dharmashred

*Snowolf* Thank you so much! I honestly would not be at this point without all of your great tips, and of course the other vets on the board. I love my dude, my guys teaching their women how to ride...no bueno. Lessons are so important because (as you can see) bad habits are hard to break. I know work is never done, I want to keep improving and progressing and trying new things. I've fallen in love with snowboarding, there is nothing like it. I will make my way up there this summer, I have to meet the man in person who has helped me so much!!! 

*Leo* I don't think I've wanted anything so badly as I want this, I've been injured a shitload of times and it just made me go harder. I feel vindicated!!!!! It was such an epic weekend for me,I don't know if anything (except having my son) can match this feeling I have right now, not yet anyway. I've still got the Cheshire cat grin and i haven't done any work since I've been back :laugh: "_There's no sensation to compare with this , suspended animation, a state of bliss_"

*Cifex* thanks so much for the encouragement, the vids help because I don't always realize what i'm doing, but watching them over and over and getting tips from everyone helps me to keep those things in mind while i'm riding. 

Peace and love!


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## dharmashred

Hey everyone! I just wanted to say thanks again and give you an update on my progression. Turns are coming so much easier now. A few things I feel when I ride, pulling the trigger and initiating the first toeside turn, I still pivot a bit sometimes. I also did quite a bit of speed checking on the steeps, my board ends up more perpendicular than I want when I am back on heels and getting ready to make the transition back to toes and I end up skidding...

One kick ass thing is that I felt really comfortable at higher speeds making quick edge to edge transitions, they were natural and I trusted myself and felt a rhythm going. Still need to work on the steeps, I have a tendency to lean back a little bit on the steeps. I've had a little difficulty controlling my speed when going on the steeps, probably cause I'm leaning back, but one step at a time!

THIS IS THE FIRST TIME I DID NOT CATCH AN EDGE (mainly my toe) RIDING! 7 days straight and I didn't eat shit!  

This is the fastest I have ever went and I felt confident and trusted myself! Of course the work is never done, so if this isn't already old, any continued constructive criticism would be awesome. Back at it next weekend. 2010 Riding on Vimeo


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## Leo

I'm no expert, but you're getting much better. I still see some arm swinging though, but definitely leaps and bounds better than your first couple of vids.

From what I can see, it looks like you are forcing the turns a little too much by favoring your back leg. This is good for skidded turns, but if you want to carve you will have to utilize a more even weight for your toe and heel sides.

Snowolf will have to chime in for the technicalities. Again, it looks like you gained a full season of experience already. Damn, next thing you know we'll be seeing you hitting kickers.


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## lilfoot1598

Yay for progess! :thumbsup:

The best advice I can give you is to get a lesson now that you are feeling stable and confident. Seriously. I read and understood every piece of advice posters gave me here about my turns, but it never really came together until Snowolf could SHOW me and run me through a few drills. One or two drills and the light bulb just came on. I now know exactly what I'm doing wrong, it's just a matter of practice. 

Try posting on the regional threads - perhaps someone can suggest a good instructor at your local mountain.


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## dharmashred

Leo - Thanks for the encouragement and right on critique, I need it! I tried grabbing my pants like Snowolf said, but every time I got really into it, I just forgot and that arm went wild. I was skeptical to post the vid, cause I didn't feel like I was satisfied with the progression..until i checked the old vids...jeezus...so, forward movement! Dude, kickers by the end of the season, I wish... I can dream or die trying! 

Lilfoot - Thanks! You're right, I think at this point I _really_ would benefit from having an instructor with me to fine tune everything. I take everything in my mind when I go up, but some of it gets lost when I'm there. By the way, picked up a new board, K2 Duchess, sahweeeet! Not super stiff, not too flex, lighter, but still demanding and far more versatile.


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## dharmashred

Snowolf - I am going to keep climbing, keep charging, keep trying. I need to and will work on the rise and fall. I value hearing the tips for improvement _soo much._ Yeah, that hand just gets away from me :laugh:...focused on it a bit more and tried (briefly) to hold my pants, but when I got into the speed and my "rhythm" I forgot all about it. Every time I ask my dude about my arms, he says "fuck your arms, they're not important, you're hauling ass!!" but I know they are and I know i'm not _yet._. I want the right form and I want to really really charge it. I am so happy and proud of my continued progression, but it's time to take another lesson for sure. Having someone knowledgeable around me to check me with the right exercises and critiques would..would...fuckin A..I can't find the word! (Me??? no words...:dunno

Oh yeah, the tips for bleeding off speed on the steeps...they will be super helpful in me learning to exercise control. 

Yes, Mammoth is a beautiful place. Fuck Disneyland, Mammoth is the happiest place on earth for me. 158" of snowfall this season alone, and when it's bluebird, maaan, just a few steps away from heaven. And when it dumps, it *dumps!* Wide open terrain, longer runs, shorter runs, backside, terrain for (I think) almost every rider level. *Sigh*

Back at it on Saturday, will really try to focus more on getting down and dirty and moving lower body more fluidly with upper body in line. I was at 15/-15 before, last vid was 15/-12 (width 19.5)..wanting to work my rear foot more forward, but subtly so I can feel the difference. Read _almost everything_ I can about stances. Would you recommend a more forward stance? 

THANK YOU!


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## dharmashred

Thanks again Snowolf. Good, I'll just leave well enough alone with my bindings. Reading so much shit and so many different opinions was just getting confusing. 15/-12 feels comfortable, I'll stick with that.

Rise and fall...rise and fall...


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## dharmashred

I practiced and practiced all day on Saturday, then looked at the vids and they look the damn same. What lilfoot said makes alot of sense, on Sat I was starting to feel like I was probably going to be "stuck" there for a while, even with my dedication, without someone with me to critique me and help me work on form. I did myself a favor and took a 1-hr private lesson on Sunday. He did mostly drills with me, turns, braking, and really getting on that edge to really carve. My turns are wider again, but I needed to go back a few steps to go forward the right way...and I made my first real tracks (no skids!)!!!!!  We worked on the standing up and sinking down, and i could really feel the difference in my control of my board and speed. He told me it looked like mostly a confidence issue, great stance on the heels but going back to toe needs work, and i'm standing straight up on that damn toeside turn (yes...i ate snow...all in my mouth and nose:laugh::laugh. Nothing you lovely peeps haven't already told me! He gave me a great tip about the toeside turn. He said "remember, we call it the _patience_ turn..." I just have to waaiiit for it.


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## Guest

In the last vid you posted, are you in the blue snow pants? Or are you holding your own camera while riding?


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## dharmashred

I'm in the blue pants, my dude has a gopro cam mounted on his helmet and his board.


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## dharmashred

*What's next?*

So, I'm feeling more and more confident every time I ride. I've spent the past few weeks really trying to focus on getting a strong edge hold, bringing the board back across the fall line and _trying_ to lay down some carves. I've been able to conquer steeps by completing my C's, but when i'm on gentler terrain that I usually practice on, after looking at my vids, i think my turns are still fairly shallow and skidded. I also feel like I'm going slower than before because I'm concentrating so hard on sharpening my edge hold - or i guess that is because the edge hold isn't strong enough to lay down the solid clean carves that produce speed  I worked on the rise and fall Snowolf talked about, but I think I still need to get more dynamic with my lower body. As far as my back hand is concerned...can I just cut the bitch off??? 

Any suggestions on things to continue to work on would be awesome. Powder Weekend on Vimeo

The first 2 minutes nothing is really going on, but it was my very first time on the backside of the mountain, took that upper road runner steezy talked about some time earlier in the thread. Last weekend was the first time i felt confident enough to up there and not fuck shit up. Wow, it was sooo fucking beautiful! I wanted to get more of the run, but as it turns out, my dude kept getting sitting down later on in the run! He bombs down virtually anything and loves his tricks and jumps, but his powder riding sucks!! :cheeky4: I think my natural tendency to lean back from longboarding before works in my favor in powder!!! Or just luck of the draw....:dunno:


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## Leo

You're definitely looking much, much cleaner. Your back arm is especially noticeably more quiet. As for the skidding, I can't get all technical like SnowWolf, but your transitions looked forced. You aren't skidding while you are carving, but you skid into the carve when you change edges. The way I was taught to transition my carves from edge to edge was to imagine balancing a small ball in the middle of your board. If you kick too much when you link your turns, you're going to send that ball flying off.

Also, I think you could bend your knees a little more when you initiate those carves.

I really can't wait to see what you'll be up to by the end of the season :thumbsup:


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## SnowProRick

dharmashred said:


> As far as my back hand is concerned...can I just cut the bitch off???
> 
> Any suggestions on things to continue to work on would be awesome. Powder Weekend on Vimeo


Snowball drill!! It is at the end (6:30 or so).

--rick


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## lilfoot1598

Your turns are looking a LOT cleaner and I agree that your arm doesn't look wild like it used to.

Your heelside turns look fluid, but you are skidding to the point of almost coming to a complete standstill before making your toeside turns. It's probably due to fear of speed. 

Have you learned dynamic skidded turns yet? They are really useful on steeper terrain. I would learn dynamic turns before I would worry about carving correctly.


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## Leo

SnowProRick said:


> Snowball drill!! It is at the end (6:30 or so).
> 
> --rick


That snowball drill is funny. If you don't have icey snow, I'm sure you can find something else to work with. I personally used the hands on knees method.


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## dharmashred

Thanks Leo! I can't fucking wait either!!! I do need to bend my knees more for sure, and I do feel it under my when I start to skid, i'm missing something :dunno: Thanks for the continued encouragement!!

SnowPro Rick, thanks, I've been watching your carving vids a lot this week (when I should be working :laugh::laugh and reading and re-reading all of Snowolf's prior posts to me on this topic. As long as I get consistently better each time, I'm happy. I can ride all over the mountain now, but I want to be able to do it with the right technique and the right form, that's important to me.

That shit is HI-larious!!! I was seriously that bad too at one point last season...fucking spastic!!! :laugh::laugh::laugh:


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## dharmashred

lilfoot - Thanks! to be honest I really don't know what the hell i'm working on anymore :laugh::laugh: just trying to get better. After the lesson I took a few weeks back, the instructor got me to make the full c's and then wait for the turn to come, that's what i was trying to do, but I end up skidding when i'm coming around, so i just go right back in to the turn so i don't lose speed, and that's when it becomes forced. I've been trying to work on everything Snowolf said, and also the things the instructor had me do...sensory overload!


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## wrathfuldeity

dharma, the vid looks great...nice and smooth, nothing to add but just try mobbing with others...do some slop-chop-hang on for dear life runs that forces you out of your head and into your gut...and get on the steeps instead of the wide open groomers...you look too comfortable. It will force you to integrate and you will surprise yourself at what you can put together. At some point in progression and plateaus, its NOT about "right technique and the right form" its about pushing beyond the envelope in leaps...not a linear progression.


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## dharmashred

wrathfuldeity said:


> dharma, the vid looks great...nice and smooth, nothing to add but just try mobbing with others...do some slop-chop-hang on for dear life runs that forces you out of your head and into your gut...and get on the steeps instead of the wide open groomers...you look too comfortable. It will force you to integrate and you will surprise yourself at what you can put together. At some point in progression and plateaus, its NOT about "right technique and the right form" its about pushing beyond the envelope in leaps...not a linear progression.


Well said!!!

Thanks Wrath, that's pretty much right on. I've been "practicing" so much and focusing on what i'm doing right/wrong that i've forgotten to push myself lately (FAIL. Epic FAIL!!!) and I do feel a little stuck. Last weekend was the first time I hit up the backside, so I feel good about that. i need to just chill the fuck out about the form and just charge it! i fucking already know what to do, everything else will just have to come on its own time.


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## Phenix_Rider

You actually have to cut a run down through powder?! I'm soo jealous! What they call "packed/groomed powder" over here is ICE. "Cat track/curdory" is like extruded ice. "Now with Ridges!" :laugh:



lilfoot1598 said:


> Your heelside turns look fluid, but you are skidding to the point of almost coming to a complete standstill before making your toeside turns. It's probably due to fear of speed.


For what it's worth- I do the same thing riding switch. Toeside turns are meh-OK but I skid the hell out of heelside. I can only link turns all the way down a green on a good day. If you're getting stuck, try taking a break and goofing off instead of practicing skills. Go hit some little jumps into the powder, try some presses and ollies. Can't beat falling in powder!


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## dharmashred

Snowolf said:


> Do not over think bad riding days or learning plateaus as you will start mind fucking yourself and it actually will make things worse.
> 
> It is great to push and strive to achieve goals, but you also need to take a break and just go have fun as well. Very often, your breakthrough moments happen totally unexpectedly while just out having fun. The lessons and practice and advice you are getting here all get`s stored away and sometimes the brain feels something you are doing and it all clicks......





wrathfuldeity said:


> dharma, the vid looks great...nice and smooth, nothing to add but just try mobbing with others...do some slop-chop-hang on for dear life runs that forces you out of your head and into your gut...and get on the steeps instead of the wide open groomers...you look too comfortable. It will force you to integrate and you will surprise yourself at what you can put together. At some point in progression and plateaus, its NOT about "right technique and the right form" its about pushing beyond the envelope in leaps...not a linear progression.





CaptT said:


> If at least once everytime you go, you don't get the WTF did I get myself into stomach churns then you have failed.....


Man...these words ignited me...CaptT's was actually from another thread, but nonetheless, the meaning is the meaning. So I took all of that, stopped thinking so much and _pushed_ myself and this is what i came up with - first 2 mins. is just me shreddin around with_out_ thinking about it, the rest is my first backside double black!!!! Holy fucking shite! It was the best feeling ever. Monument and Dave's on Vimeo.

So, my stomach churned, I got what I now affectionately refer to as the "OH SHITS!!!", let go of the "right technique" shit, had my best riding day to date!!!


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## Surrendermonkey

dharmashred said:


> Man...these words ignited me...CaptT's was actually from another thread, but nonetheless, the meaning is the meaning. So I took all of that, stopped thinking so much and _pushed_ myself and this is what i came up with - first 2 mins. is just me shreddin around with_out_ thinking about it, the rest is my first backside double black!!!! Holy fucking shite! It was the best feeling ever. Monument and Dave's on Vimeo.
> 
> So, my stomach churned, I got what I now affectionately refer to as the "OH SHITS!!!", let go of the "right technique" shit, had my best riding day to date!!!


For a first double black that is pretty damn nice!

If you're interested in some constructive critism on that, it looks like you start slowing almost completely to a standstill between each turn as soon as you hit steeper ground - even to the point where you are riding slower than when you ride on a very shallow groomer.

That might be a trick of the camera though, it does make tend to make it hard to see clear, as we cannot feel how fast it is going.


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## wrathfuldeity

dharma, looks like you were having fun....ur doin it.

at 1:17-2:00 in your turns, try really sinking/compressing...bending you knees to get really low crouch...you will feel the "g's" and you should feel like you are shooting out of your turns...it will help you prepare for doing cross under turns and handling the steeps.

On the steeps you were trying to use the groomer method...the steeps its about compressing and bending the knees.
at 3:12 your friend took off...try to keep up with that.
at 3:35-40 you look good
by 5:00 you look tired

When riding the steeper places your knees were a bit too straight, just really crouch, keep the knees deeply bent to absorb bumps and it also sets up you up for doing cross-under turns (were you extend in the turn and then suck your knees up to change edges)...though got to be going at a reasonable speed.

It seems that you are at the place, to learn to, "really trust your board and your body"; that is, the board will go over the bumps, get airborne and do the turns...you just got to hang on ... my son told me at that stage..."dad when you feel like you are going to loose it, just let your body do whatever to try to stay on the board...your body knows what to do...and try to "compact" yourself...get smaller but stay loose"


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## dharmashred

wrathfuldeity said:


> It seems that you are at the place, to learn to, "really trust your board and your body"; that is, the board will go over the bumps, get airborne and do the turns...you just got to hang on ... my son told me at that stage..."dad when you feel like you are going to loose it, just let your body do whatever to try to stay on the board...your body knows what to do...and try to "compact" yourself...get smaller but stay loose"


Very wise words. Thanks wrath! Funny, I said something similar to that to my dude over the weekend, I said i know what i'm doing, now it's time to trust it, ride it, (stop fucking worrying about it so much) and the magic will happen somewhere along the way! 

But daaamn I was scared on those steeps...something about looking straight down from the top of the sierra


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## dharmashred

Thanks for your continued tips and encouragement, I know I've said this already, but a great deal of my progress is attributed to your great advice, and the other great advice of the vets here. Stoked to ride with you in June! 

I for sure feel the difference in my riding, it's fucking amazing to ride and know that more likely than not I'm going to stay on my feet! Before it was like a fucking crap shoot, catching gnarly edges, almost catching edges but saving by sheer dumb luck. :laugh: Once I let go and just had fun, the magic begins!

The super steeps are a major struggle right now, kind of like starting over again, actually had an issue on Sunday, but I'll start a diff thread for that.


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