# Are our boots 'anti-ski'?



## Argo (Feb 25, 2010)

how many days do you ride?

When I was doing 120+ days a season I would buy a new pair each year. I am 290 lbs so I put more force on my boots and wear them down faster. I use the stiffer and more expensive styles, Flow/Nidecker Talon.... Now that I am down to around 30-50 days a year I will probably get new boots every 3 years.

My skier friends doing similar days would keep their hard shells about 5 years but change their interiors out each season, That also costs a lot....

Buy stiffer, higher end boots so they last longer. You can also change out the liners to make them a little fresher.


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## wrathfuldeity (Oct 5, 2007)

Hardboot/AT convert...never going back to softies. Infact bought a second pair of non-carbon Atomic Backland that were demo's apparently ridden twice and this past week got them heat moulded and liners 90% dialed. Also upgraded to the Phantom Tech toes for splitting, picked up another Spark One-Binding puck system and a pair of Phantom Links that should be arriving soon. So will have a 3 board quiver converted tor riding in hardboots. The link below is my 2 cents and experience.









The hardboot ride...downhill?


Just some thoughts on riding in hardboots...since I haven't seen much but the statement that the ride down is less than desirable than with soft boots. Thoughts on hardboot riding: So currently have 6 days with hards-on...its like taking Viagra. Moi, 60yrs, 5”6”, 172 lbs (goal to get to 160)...




www.snowboardingforum.com


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## MrDavey2Shoes (Mar 5, 2018)

Good luck getting those steezy tweaked out grabs nailed in hard boots, stay pitted broz.

On a more serious note - I don’t think hard boots would allow for the fluid feel snowboarding innately searches for.


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## Rip154 (Sep 23, 2017)

Until one of the companies actually invest in making a proper hardboot for every day snowboarding and splitting, not just GS, forget it.


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## wrathfuldeity (Oct 5, 2007)

Its not just the boot, you got to reconfigure the bindings. For my setup if I had paid MSRP, it would be close to $2k for boots, bindings and one-binding plate/puck interface. Though without the Phantoms and just doing Sparks DynoDH it would still be right about $1k. I don't think its necessarily anti-ski...but it is niche, spendy and for the true believers.


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## Nivek (Jan 24, 2008)

I hate stiff boots. Not an anti-ski thing, I like mobility.

Snowboarding came from skate and surf, you dont skate or surf in super stiff footwear. So why would they snowboard in that?

Also that article reads like a skier who still uses the term "knuckledraggers" wrote it.


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## Jkb818 (Sep 28, 2019)

Hard boots was one of the things I like the least from skiing all set with going back. To each their own though.


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## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

No. They are pro-snowboarding.


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## Nivek (Jan 24, 2008)

F1EA said:


> No. They are pro-snowboarding.


This is probably the best most concise response.


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## BurtonAvenger (Aug 14, 2007)

Oh god this fucking article and the bullshit that goes with it. 

1. Fuck the guy that wrote this. He's a god damn mountaineer that snowboards and from Boulder. Seriously fuck that guy. 

2. No you do not need a hard boot to have the most ultimate performance out of your snowboard. You need to just fucking ride more.

3. We have lateral flex in our boots which is what we use a lot with our natural hip flex when driving a snowboard. If you minimize your lateral ankle flex you are going to lose so much of how you ride. Not to mention say goodbye to your knees when you eat shit. 

4. If you go with a hard boot set up you ever notice they're basically mono skiing and have such a progressive forwards stance? Yeah, that's because they don't have any lateral flex. So if you want that just go fucking ski and get out of snowboarding. 

5. Boot technology has come so far in the last 20 years yet I've seen a lot of old boring ass fucks (looking at you History of Snowboarding) saying that binding and boot tech hasn't progressed since 1998. Maybe if you got your head out of your asses and wiped the shit from your eyes and looked around you would see there's a plethora of new technology out there that is absolutely amazing. But no these dumb fucks like to sit around and say "it was better when" you know what these are the same fucks that chant MAGA as well I've realized. Welcome to 2020 motherfuckers shits amazing here in the present and going to be better in the future. You want to sit around and say nothing has progressed in 20 years, do us all a favor and just die already. 

6. No one rides like Chad Otterstrom. Not the writer of this article, not anyone bemoaning soft boots, not you, not me, not Kevin. NO ONE! That guy is in a league so far beyond any of us, we should all just bask in the glory that is Chad O and let him do his thing because that guy is the realist snowboarder you will ever see. 

7. Fuck the guy that wrote this article. It had to be said again. 

8. Oh you want to carve? But you don't get time to ride? Guess what much like anything in life you have to repeatedly do it to get good at it. 

9. There are some amazingly stiff soft boots on the market that work exceptionally well and don't make you feel like you're locked into a ski boot. 

10. Snowboarders are fucking lazy you think they're going to spend 10 hours DIY'ing a hard shell boot to get it to fit? They have a hard enough time understanding swapping out a stock insole with an aftermarket one. Shell punching, grinding, and what not? HAHAHA that's not happening. 

Ugh I could go on and on about this. But seriously fuck this granola eating, mountaineering, hack job, douche nozzle from Boulder. Boulder is the god damn Vermont and California of CO rolled into one spot and it's the worst.


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## Jkb818 (Sep 28, 2019)

^^^ I take it a top 5 hard shell snowboard boots video is not on the way ???


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## MrDavey2Shoes (Mar 5, 2018)

Tell em why you mad!


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## deagol (Mar 26, 2014)

I don't know the guy who wrote this article, but I have been splitboarding with John Keffler, who is mentioned in the article. I know hard boots have their advantages, and disadvantages. There is obviously a lot of emotion in this thread, which probably won't lead to the real answer about what would really make the best snowboarding boot. The funny thing is that I have run into at least 3 hard boot guys who are as anti-soft boot, as certain posts here are anti-hard boot- each side convinced they are right and everyone else is an idiot. It reminds me of the feuding religions we have in the world.

One thing I do know is that everyone I speak to who have switched to hard boots loves them. I guess it all depends on what you want out of snowboarding. I've tried them many years ago, and they were sketchy to me. I didn't like the extreme narrow forward stance required. However, at least with splitboarders, they ride duck stances in their hardboots. AT (Alpine Touring) boots are a different animal than traditional "hard boots" so it may not be an apples to apples comparison. As for me, I'll stick with softboots for now- but as hard as I can get them.

I have a relative who, jokingly, likes to rip on snowboarding. He is a life-long skier. My argument is that snowboarding is far more natural than skiing. Reasoning: look no further than surfing or skateboarding. The human body can brace itself quite well standing sideways on a surf/skate board with no stiff boots and no bindings. Try standing forward like a skier does- you will be on your ass in 2 seconds. That's why skiers need such a stiff interface: to hold them into a position they cannot maintain without that boot/binding.


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## Snowdaddy (Feb 2, 2018)

deagol said:


> I have a relative who, jokingly, likes to rip on snowboarding. He is a life-long skier. My argument is that snowboarding is far more natural than skiing. Reasoning: look no further than surfing or skateboarding. The human body can brace itself quite well standing sideways on a surf/skate board with no stiff boots and no bindings. Try standing forward like a skier does- you will be on your ass in 2 seconds. That's why skiers need such a stiff interface: to hold them into a position they cannot maintain without that boot/binding.


If you compare a mono ski and a snowboard, sure. It's going to be easier with your feet apart. In skiing I would make a guess it's more about the momentum from the long planks on your feet that makes it easier to have stiff boots. That, and the need to apply metal edges to the snow.

It's more natural going sideways to a snowboarder. That's why snowboarders walk sideways when they are drunk. Sober and normal people walk forward.


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## Aracan (Nov 24, 2017)

MrDavey2Shoes said:


> I don’t think hard boots would allow for the fluid feel snowboarding innately searches for.


As someone who rides hardboots, I am pretty convinced they allow exactly for that fluid feel I am searching for. YMMV, though.


BurtonAvenger said:


> 4. If you go with a hard boot set up you ever notice they're basically mono skiing and have such a progressive forwards stance?


No, I haven't. Looking at my binding setup and mentally comparing it to a monoski, I think you are wrong there, especially when I compare my monoskiing experiences (those were the days) to my snowboarding experiences. On a related note, when someone tells me that alpine snowboarding is like skiing, I automatically assume they have never tried either. But that's just me.


BurtonAvenger said:


> 9. There are some amazingly stiff soft boots on the market that work exceptionally well and don't make you feel like you're locked into a ski boot.


Again, if you think modern hardboots feel like ski boots, it makes me think you lack experience with both (hint: they don't).


deagol said:


> I didn't like the extreme narrow forward stance required.


Neither do I, which is why I don't ride what I would regard as an extreme forward stance (something like 40° rear, because with my boot size I cannot go lower without overhang, and 58° front, because I like more splay than the 50/55 hardbooters of yore).


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## wrathfuldeity (Oct 5, 2007)

Snowdaddy said:


> If you compare a mono ski and a snowboard, sure. It's going to be easier with your feet apart. In skiing I would make a guess it's more about the momentum from the long planks on your feet that makes it easier to have stiff boots. That, and the need to apply metal edges to the snow.
> 
> It's more natural going sideways to a snowboarder. That's why snowboarders walk sideways when they are drunk. Sober and normal people walk forward.


I want to learn to tele ride my split this season. And the main reason for going to AT boots were because of my small feet, riding women's softboots and could not find a soft boot that was stiff enough. I was very apprehensive about this move. Initially was seriously questioning my decision because despite having them pro fitted/mould, there was pain, weirdness and heal lift. However having spent some big coin was determined to persevere before giving up. It took 3 trips to the boot fitter, 6 days of me tweaking. Now that I'm on the other side of the river, its the promised land...both resort and BC. And my angles, width and duck remain the same as it always was. Also I don't do steezy tweaked out grabs and we don't have any park at the hill.


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## BurtonAvenger (Aug 14, 2007)

HAHAHA yeah know nothing about boot fitting, at all. That's a laugh. 

Just come out of the closet and admit you're a skier.


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## wrathfuldeity (Oct 5, 2007)

BurtonAvenger said:


> HAHAHA yeah know nothing about boot fitting, at all. That's a laugh.
> 
> Just come out of the closet and admit you're a skier.


I skied once for 15 feet, fell foward and pulled a calf muscle...done. It swelled up like having a golf ball in my calf, it stole 3 weeks of my season. I'll admit that skiing does look fun and more stable for some things; and for other things, skiing looks like it would be a shit show.


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## MrDavey2Shoes (Mar 5, 2018)

@Aracan ...58/40 is definitely a steep angle setup


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## Aracan (Nov 24, 2017)

MrDavey2Shoes said:


> @Aracan ...58/40 is definitely a steep angle setup


Depends on the point of reference. Compared to a duck setup on a 28 cm waist board, it certainly is. Compared to the 70/65 setups or similar which the guys on 17 or 18 cm boards ride, it most definitely is not. I don't know what deagol had in mind when he mentioned "extreme narrow forward stance".


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## Aracan (Nov 24, 2017)

wrathfuldeity said:


> I'll admit that skiing does look fun and more stable for some things; and for other things, skiing looks like it would be a shit show.


I did a lot of skiing way back when and quit before the carving revolution. Later I tried it again (because snowboarding with a 3 yo on skis is not fun) and found that compared to an alpine board, carving skis suck something fierce in the carving department. Don't know about other things. The kids on their twin-tip skis certainly seem to have fun.


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## neni (Dec 24, 2012)

deagol said:


> One thing I do know is that everyone I speak to who have switched to hard boots loves them.


Well, count me to those who clearly don't. 
I do have a pair of AT boots (and yes, BA, I spent hours hacking , sawing, filing, DIY'ing them)... and while I see how incredibly superior they are skinning up splitboarding? They still suck on the way down compared to stiff soft boots. 

I only use them in sketchy conditions when their uphill advantage clearly winns over their downhill suck. If there's fresh pow? I rather take the bit less uphill performing stiff softboot and enjoy the downhill way more.


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## wrathfuldeity (Oct 5, 2007)

neni said:


> Well, count me to those who clearly don't.
> I do have a pair of AT boots (and yes, BA, I spent hours hacking , sawing, filing, DIY'ing them)... and while I see how incredibly superior they are skinning up splitboarding? They still suck on the way down compared to stiff soft boots.
> 
> I only use them in sketchy conditions when their uphill advantage clearly winns over their downhill suck. If there's fresh pow? I rather take the bit less uphill performing stiff softboot and enjoy the downhill way more.


Neni, that is because you got the wrong boots


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## drblast (Feb 28, 2017)

BurtonAvenger said:


> Oh god this fucking article and the bullshit that goes with it.
> 
> 1. Fuck the guy that wrote this. He's a god damn mountaineer that snowboards and from Boulder. Seriously fuck that guy.
> 
> ...


This is why I pay for stickers. More entertaining and informative than a magazine subscription.


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## deagol (Mar 26, 2014)

Aracan said:


> Depends on the point of reference. Compared to a duck setup on a 28 cm waist board, it certainly is. Compared to the 70/65 setups or similar which the guys on 17 or 18 cm boards ride, it most definitely is not. I don't know what deagol had in mind when he mentioned "extreme narrow forward stance".


My extreme narrow forward stance was what I had to use when I had (borrowed) hard boots on a Nidecker Predator with plate bindings. The stiff cuffs forced the stance to be very narrow and the narrow waist of the board also forced very forward angles. I ride 30 on front foot with my regular setup and this was way beyond that.

This was a long time ago (90's) and I don't remember what the actual angles were, or what the stance width was. I am guessing the front foot was close to 45 degras and the back foot was probably near 30 degrees. I could be wrong, though. Relative to the stance I ride with soft boots, it was extreme and narrow. Most hard booters I see, including a guy I saw yesterday, were on a similar uncomfortable (to me) stance.


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## deagol (Mar 26, 2014)

neni said:


> Well, count me to those who clearly don't.
> I do have a pair of AT boots (and yes, BA, I spent hours hacking , sawing, filing, DIY'ing them)... and while I see how incredibly superior they are skinning up splitboarding? They still suck on the way down compared to stiff soft boots.
> 
> I only use them in sketchy conditions when their uphill advantage clearly winns over their downhill suck. If there's fresh pow? I rather take the bit less uphill performing stiff softboot and enjoy the downhill way more.


That's good to hear. I know you got that setup since we went touring with you a few years back.

I went on a splitboard tour last April with one very fit skier and 2 fit hard-boot splitboarders. It was brutal. We climbed two separate 13ers and descended them. The first descent was one of the best of my life. One thing that sucked though was the hard booters, one of them in particular, who would not lay off on how superior hard boots were and how soft boots suck. It's almost like he was taking it as a personal insult that I was on soft boots. Anyway, I did get smoked on the climbs, especially the very steep sketchy side hilling we had to do- in no-fall terrain. He is a long-time acquaintance/friend, too. This isn't the only example of AT boot elitism pushed to way beyond normal, but is my most recent. Almost worth sticking with soft boots just to resist.


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## MrDavey2Shoes (Mar 5, 2018)

@deagol Loud mouth’d ski boarders


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## BurtonAvenger (Aug 14, 2007)

The guy probably wears a MAGA hat. Fuck him.


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## 16gkid (Dec 5, 2012)

Visually, i find nothing appealing about hard boot carving, they do super quick, short ski type carves, yall can keep that


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## Aracan (Nov 24, 2017)

16gkid said:


> they do super quick, short ski type carves, yall can keep that


Certainly an interesting characterization of turns like these. Or these. Or, come to think of it, these too. And these, of course.
Are you sure you have ever actually _seen_ a recreational hardbooter?


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## 16gkid (Dec 5, 2012)

Aracan said:


> Certainly an interesting characterization of turns like these. Or these. Or, come to think of it, these too. And these, of course.
> Are you sure you have ever actually _seen_ a recreational hardbooter?


I don't care


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## Aracan (Nov 24, 2017)

I just won a bet.


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## MrDavey2Shoes (Mar 5, 2018)

Aracan said:


> Certainly an interesting characterization of turns like these. Or these. Or, come to think of it, these too. And these, of course.
> Are you sure you have ever actually _seen_ a recreational hardbooter?


But how did he glue his skis together like that?


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## Nivek (Jan 24, 2008)

Aracan said:


> Certainly an interesting characterization of turns like these. Or these. Or, come to think of it, these too. And these, of course.
> Are you sure you have ever actually _seen_ a recreational hardbooter?


Put poles in there hands and from a distance they look like skiers. So yeah, exactly what we're talking about. 

Hardbooting like that is barely snowboarding. Sorry, that's just how it is. You're barely standing sideways and while snowboarding uses lateral movement to change where we pressure the sidecut, harbooting uses lateral effort to turn, just like skis. You change pressure on the sidecut by shifting your weight front to back, just like a ski. It just has more in common in gear, shape, aesthetic, and dynamics with skiing than with snowboarding. Tough to swallow, I know.

Simply put, snowboarding was created to surf snow. Does hardbooting look more like surfing or skiing?


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## MrDavey2Shoes (Mar 5, 2018)

I got it! Hard booting is the equivalent of mono skiing on water! 
/thread


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## 16gkid (Dec 5, 2012)

Aracan said:


> I just won a bet.


Still losing at life with your hardboots


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## deagol (Mar 26, 2014)

I don't hate hardboot carving, but prefer softbot carving, which are different things. I think Nivek's post above kind of nailed it. It's like a continuum with stances. You start out sideways and it what some of us might think of as surf-style snowboarding. You rotate that stance and the body motions change keep rotating and they change more. Eventually it's rotated so much that it really is a whole different style and set of motions and it progresses farther away from the 'snowboarding' that we may like to think of as the purest form of the sport. It progresses closer to mono-skiing in some sense, but not every sense. I can see both side and have (some) experience with hardboots. I choose the hardest soft boots I can find and prefer hi-back bindings, klunky as they are, to plate bindings. 

I rode softboots one day and was carving similar to some hard-booters I was riding with. Not as extreme for sure, but similar. The thing is I was able to go over to the backside and ride soft snow and steeps with no change in equipment and they could not follow. I like the versatility that stiff softboots allow.


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## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

deagol said:


> I don't hate hardboot carving, but prefer softbot carving, which are different things. I think Nivek's post above kind of nailed it. It's like a continuum with stances. You start out sideways and it what some of us might think of as surf-style snowboarding. You rotate that stance and the body motions change keep rotating and they change more. Eventually it's rotated so much that it really is a whole different style and set of motions and it progresses farther away from the 'snowboarding' that we may like to think of as the purest form of the sport. It progresses closer to mono-skiing in some sense, but not every sense. I can see both side and have (some) experience with hardboots. I choose the hardest soft boots I can find and prefer hi-back bindings, klunky as they are, to plate bindings.
> 
> I rode softboots one day and was carving similar to some hard-booters I was riding with. Not as extreme for sure, but similar. The thing is I was able to go over to the backside and ride soft snow and steeps with no change in equipment and they could not follow. I like the versatility that stiff softboots allow.


That's the bottom line ^


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## 16gkid (Dec 5, 2012)

Everyone is ski triggered in here, lets calm it down with some dope carving


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## wrathfuldeity (Oct 5, 2007)

Methinks there is a bit of confusion of association. Most folks have associated hardboots with eurocarves. Clearly this is based on history in part due to the lack of boot options back in the day. However with the advent of AT boots which are distinctly different in design and function from hardshell ski boots. Light weight AT boots are a relatively new technology and have a potential to be a game changer for folks that want a more stiff and responsive boot than the stiffest softboots and for the exploding BC splitty touring folks. 

As for myself, I'm clearly in the recreationalist catagory, in that I can not yet eurocarve nor am I a hardcore BC splitter. It would be great if some one could design a more budget friendly solution than the current AT boot and binding options. I get lots of looks and questions riding a solid resort board in bounds and have met just 2 other folks doing the same. Point is, AT boots (not hardshell ski boots) is bridging the gap and meeting a niche need between hardshell and soft shell boot. At least I'm enjoying the ride and for moi the only down side is the price of entry.


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## Jkb818 (Sep 28, 2019)

@wrathfuldeity link to boots?


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## Alpine Duke (Jun 21, 2015)

@wrathfuldeity , you mentioned that you have small feet and I think that is part of why ATs are working so well for you. Aside from splitboarding (haven't tried it but my friends that use ATs for this love them) ATs may be hard for someone to fit on a snowboard....if say...they are a size 12 or something like that. Hard snowboard boots (like UPZ for example) have the heel contact point far, far forward to help prevent booting out and would be easier for someone with big loafers to fit on a board.

I have a friend that only rides in hardboots, even on his Winterstick pow board. For me, I tried hardboots on regular boards and didn't care for it. I use hardboots on my carving boards and softboots on my BX, all mountain, and powder boards. The rigid control hard boots give with my carving boards I found too restrictive for my taste on the other decks. I have S Malamutes for soft boots and they work well for my softboot decks and still give me the flex that just seems to fit what I want for those decks.

Different rides for different days and I like having so many options. I'll have to give some ATs a try sometime though I don't splitboard. Instead i keep an eye on the powderbouy and take a day off when a pow day is coming and spend my calories riding instead of skinning


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## wrathfuldeity (Oct 5, 2007)

Alpine Duke said:


> @wrathfuldeity , you mentioned that you have small feet and I think that is part of why ATs are working so well for you. Aside from splitboarding (haven't tried it but my friends that use ATs for this love them) ATs may be hard for someone to fit on a snowboard....if say...they are a size 12 or something like that. Hard snowboard boots (like UPZ for example) have the heel contact point far, far forward to help prevent booting out and would be easier for someone with big loafers to fit on a board.
> 
> I have a friend that only rides in hardboots, even on his Winterstick pow board. For me, I tried hardboots on regular boards and didn't care for it. I use hardboots on my carving boards and softboots on my BX, all mountain, and powder boards. The rigid control hard boots give with my carving boards I found too restrictive for my taste on the other decks. I have S Malamutes for soft boots and they work well for my softboot decks and still give me the flex that just seems to fit what I want for those decks.
> 
> Different rides for different days and I like having so many options. I'll have to give some ATs a try sometime though I don't splitboard. Instead i keep an eye on the powderbouy and take a day off when a pow day is coming and spend my calories riding instead of skinning


Yup, my small feet mondo 24 and my 180# are definitely in play and not a good combo...that was the major necessity/motivation for the mitigation of this poor lot in life of riding narrow women's boards (preference 24.5cm waist) that were not wide or long enough to float my fat or would blow out on a carve due to lack of effective edge. Or being stuck with boards that were too wide and cumbersome edge to edge for my small feet. The non-carbon Atomic Backland boots are my remedy or equalizer. I now have no problem riding a 26cm waist board where in the past was sometimes using 20mm diy risers (also got some looks about those).


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## wrathfuldeity (Oct 5, 2007)

Jkb818 said:


> @wrathfuldeity link to boots?


There is a carbon and non carbon version. Some folks like the stiffer carbon version (which the carbon cuff is not mouldable) and have seen a couple of reviews where the hinge can crack/fracture. Verses the non carbon grilmund version is less stiff and cuff is heat mouldable and don't recall seeing issues of the hinge failure. Anyway just found these links which seem that the price is dropping...iirc msrp have been around the $700 range. And I found my second pair this August (slightly used demo pair for $250). And Phantom bindings now have a "link" system for Backlands to get more of flex range.



http://www.phantomsnow.com/shop/link-levers-for-atomic-backlands





Access to This Page Has Been Blocked











Atomic Backland NC Ski Boots 2019







www.levelninesports.com


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## timmytard (Mar 19, 2009)

wrathfuldeity said:


> There is a carbon and non carbon version. Some folks like the stiffer carbon version (which the carbon cuff is not mouldable) and have seen a couple of reviews where the hinge can crack/fracture. Verses the non carbon grilmund version is less stiff and cuff is heat mouldable and don't recall seeing issues of the hinge failure. Anyway just found these links which seem that the price is dropping...iirc msrp have been around the $700 range. And I found my second pair this August (slightly used demo pair for $250). And Phantom bindings now have a "link" system for Backlands to get more of flex range.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



So what size boot are you wrath?
Cause you might be the reason I bought this other pair of FLOW HYLITES?

You see, I bought a pair after reading argo say about 5 years ago that he had put something like 200 days in a pair & they were still stiff.
That set off alarms in my head, I needed to try those.
When a guy who's over 8 feet tall & close to 600lbs put 200 days into a pair of boots & they're still stiff, well that's something special.

So i searched out & found a pair in Whistler, drove 4 hours each way, didn't even try em on when I got there. After that drive, I wasn't coming home empty handed even if they didn't fit, so I was buying them no matter what haha.

Turns out they fit perfect.
And sure as shit, that big goon wasn't lying.

They are still my go to boots with over 200 days in em.
I keep buying 2 or 3 pairs of boots every year, but every high end boot I keep buying sucks compared to the hylites.

So after 2 or 3 days in the new booties they end up back on the shelf & out come the hylites.

Last year I found another pair of hylites in a 7.5 & even though they aren't my size I bought em anyway, just cause I think they're that good.
I figured at least I could hook someone I know up with a pair of super stiff kick ass boots.
I have yet to be able to find that person though.
There's not a lot of people out there in that size that can handle these boots, that are that size.
So I've just been sitting on them waiting to find that guy.

I think it might be your lucky day wrath?
You might have to come back up here & at least try these bad boys on.
Or if you think you can just make em fit, cause your the boot modifying guru? 
I can just ship em to you.

Cause these are them buddy, the boots you've been dreaming of.
Fo realz

TT


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## wrathfuldeity (Oct 5, 2007)

TT if they are 7.5 mens they are too big, If they are 7.5/24 mondo womens, maybe...but I don't need them...already have 3 paris of soft boots and now 2 pair of AT boots. But thanks for thinking about my tiny feet.


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## Aracan (Nov 24, 2017)

Progress is a wonderful thing. In olden days I might have gone to my deathbed without realizing that my switch from skiing to snowboarding was totally pointless because they are both the same. Thanks to the internet I have but to ask and lo and behold! random strangers will point out the error of my ways, based not on experience but looks:


Nivek said:


> Put poles in there hands and from a distance they look like skiers. So yeah, exactly what we're talking about. Hardbooting like that is barely snowboarding.


But there is more to it than looks, because


Nivek said:


> while snowboarding uses lateral movement to change where we pressure the sidecut, harbooting uses lateral effort to turn, just like skis.


So what you are saying is that softbooters use lateral movement while hardbooters use lateral effort? Sorry dude, lost me there.


Nivek said:


> You change pressure on the sidecut by shifting your weight front to back, just like a ski.


No, I don’t. I must be doing it wrong.
Since I don’t know you, there is small possibility that you actually have firsthand experience of either skiing or alpine snowboarding (certainly not both). But this remark makes me certain you don’t.


Nivek said:


> Simply put, snowboarding was created to surf snow. Does hardbooting look more like surfing or skiing?


 I am not sure what to make of that. Does it mean I have failed in my moral obligation to ride in softboots or what?
Unfortunately, not everyone contributed to make this a truly high-class internet discussion. deagol especially stands out in making actual informed contributions. That’s not how it’s done! But still, a few points:


deagol said:


> It progresses closer to mono-skiing in some sense, but not every sense.


Well, not in the sense of having a stance width of zero, a splay of zero and 90° angles.


deagol said:


> The thing is I was able to go over to the backside and ride soft snow and steeps with no change in equipment and they could not follow. I like the versatility that stiff softboots allow.


I like the versatility of hardboots with a lot of fore-aft flexibility on a wide board. A versatile setup with a freeride bias would not make sense in the conditions I usually get to ride. I can still ride soft snow and all that – maybe not as good as in your setup, but I suspect mine performs better on firm to hard slopes.

And I couldn’t let this rest:


wrathfuldeity said:


> Most folks have associated hardboots with eurocarves.


Except 16gkid, who associates them with „super quick, short ski type carves“.


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## Nivek (Jan 24, 2008)

Look, alpine hardbooting is too far removed from what snowboarding was created as. It is its own thing. That's fine. There's nothing wrong with that. It's like putting drop bars and skinny tires on a rigid mountain bike. Is it still a mountain bike anymore? Doesnt mean it doesnt have a purpose or it's not fun, but it's not really mountain biking. Or like Niners full suspension gravel bike, is it really a road bike anymore?


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## MrDavey2Shoes (Mar 5, 2018)

Nivek said:


> Look, alpine hardbooting is too far removed from what snowboarding was created as. It is its own thing. That's fine. There's nothing wrong with that. It's like putting drop bars and skinny tires on a rigid mountain bike. Is it still a mountain bike anymore? Doesnt mean it doesnt have a purpose or it's not fun, but it's not really mountain biking. Or like Niners full suspension gravel bike, is it really a road bike anymore?


Holy hell is that Niner ugly. I'll stick to my Salsa Vaya and Compass tires. However I would say the geo looks pretty on par for gravel so I'd still call it an all road bike. (I didn't actually look up a geo chart but by eyeballing, it checks out to me) Mountain bike with drops? Now its a bikepacking bike. Mountain bike with skinny tires? In NYC thats a grubhub/seamless delivery bike. Skinny tires and drops on a mtb frame? Oh man Idk...thats just silly, like hard boot set ups ;-) but if those skinnies are knobbies then I'm calling it a 90s cyclecross bike.


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## Snowdaddy (Feb 2, 2018)

Wouldn't mountain biking be like free riding, bmx be like park and carving be like velodrome biking. Or something like that.


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## MrDavey2Shoes (Mar 5, 2018)

I'd call a track bike in a velodrome more akin to BX. Aggressive as fuck and high speed with no slowing down, aside from track stand battles for position.

Put the track bike on the streets and maybe thats carving. I miss my track bike, sold it a month ago. Fixed gear or snowboarding, my knees can only do one or the other.


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## Snowdaddy (Feb 2, 2018)

Just saying that park boards and park riding isn't really snowboarding at all


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## 16gkid (Dec 5, 2012)

Aracan said:


> Progress is a wonderful thing. In olden days I might have gone to my deathbed without realizing that my switch from skiing to snowboarding was totally pointless because they are both the same. Thanks to the internet I have but to ask and lo and behold! random strangers will point out the error of my ways, based not on experience but looks:
> 
> But there is more to it than looks, because
> 
> ...


You're like a skier, stuck in a snowboard binding


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## Aracan (Nov 24, 2017)

I don't actually care whether anyone (especially someone without firsthand experience) thinks hardboot snowboarding "counts" as snowboarding or not. I don't do it to snowboard, I do it to, you know, have fun. However, I do feel the need to enlighten those who think because it doesn't fit into their pattern of "snowboarding", it must be skiing. And sometimes I just can't resist, like right now:


16gkid said:


> You're like a skier, stuck in a snowboard binding


If I had my head so far up my ass, duckstance would be my only option, too.


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## Nivek (Jan 24, 2008)

I am still entertained. So...

Nothing wrong with double posi, I ride 21/3 and 24/6 on a lot of stuff, with noodle boots though. While I personally think hard boots are pretty pointless for anything outside of touring, there's nothing inherently wrong with them on a snowboard, or plate bindings, or even gnar-stiff long BX style boards. But put it all together, sub 22cm waist boards, 50/40 stances, hard boots, plate bindings... yeah it's not REALLY snowboarding anymore. Doesnt mean you cant have fun. Doesnt mean you're wrong or a skier either.


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## Manicmouse (Apr 7, 2014)

At least no-one else is fighting a multi-front battle with 7 quotes individually rebutted in one message! Sheesh...


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## MrDavey2Shoes (Mar 5, 2018)

ARE YOU NOT ENTERTAINED!?


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## tanscrazydaisy (Mar 11, 2013)

Use snowboard boots for skiing









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MadJacks All Mountain is the Most Comfortable Way to Ski. Who are MadJacks All Mountain for? All Mountain skier that wants too ski in comfort. Does the MadJacks All Mountain work with any brand of snowboard boot? MadJacks All Mountain works with all brands, either single boa laced



www.madjacksnowsports.com


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## Aracan (Nov 24, 2017)

Nivek said:


> While I personally think hard boots are pretty pointless for anything outside of touring, there's nothing inherently wrong with them on a snowboard, or plate bindings, or even gnar-stiff long BX style boards. But put it all together, sub 22cm waist boards, 50/40 stances, hard boots, plate bindings... yeah it's not REALLY snowboarding anymore.


The point of hardboots is twofold. One is control - highly defined reaction to inputs. The other is: They make it easier to rail backsides, because by transmitting lateral forces, they allow higher binding angles.
I am intrigued by "anymore". I am not a snowboarding history buff, but hard boots and plate bindings were around long before many posters here were even born. Maybe even before the strap binding as we know it? I have no idea.


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## deagol (Mar 26, 2014)

Hard boots have been around for a long time, since at least the late 80's, probably before that. Anyway, I've said my piece and I am out. Seems like the original question of this thread has been answered...


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## deagol (Mar 26, 2014)

double post


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## Rip154 (Sep 23, 2017)

What's funny is hardboot snowboarders are more pro-hardboots than skiers, who just wish they were snowboarders.


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