# Heel lift on 1st day! Should I find new boots?



## Extazy (Feb 27, 2014)

Hi, I bought Burton Rulers this year, and they were fine until I actually used them for the 1st time.

I bought them in Burton flagship store and walked in them for 1 hour in store and they fit snug. I wore them in my house when I could, I manged to wear them for like 10 hours (walking 30%, sitting around 70%).

Now I opened my season last Saturday, they were uncomfortable since they are new but I still had little fun going down the mountain. Now my last 3 runs though whenever I was initiating toe turn a heel of my back leg started going up and it was so uncomfortable that I ended up riding my heel side most of the time.

I usually wear 8 size shoes, sometimes 7.5 or 8.5. This Burton Rulers are size 7...

I ordered remind insoles last week they should arrive tomorrow, I will try riding with them next time but still worried that it wont help me.


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## ekb18c (Mar 11, 2013)

Get some C or J bars and place on the liner to get more support.


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## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

Insoles aren't gonna help the issue. J-bars might, but if you're having that much heel lift the boots are likely just a poor fit for you.


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## sheepstealer (Aug 19, 2009)

J bars and heat mold them? 

The boot shape might also just be a bad fit for your foot shape. 

Maybe try going to a good boot fitter and having them add some shims to fill the boot up a bit?


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## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

ekb18c said:


> Get some C or J bars and place on the liner to get more support.


Assuming your boots otherwise fit fine and you're only getting some lift (ie nothing extreme), this ^ is your only hope.

DO NOT heat mold. Heat molding reduces liner volume... exctly what you don't need. 

Read the boot FAQ-sticky in this forum and do that. Place the C's and J's AFTER you get the insoles.

Start with something temporary... and give a few tries until you're all locked in. After all is good, make it final with duct tape or something similar.


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## speedjason (May 2, 2013)

Did you get the right size?:dry:
What kind of socks are you using?


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## Extazy (Feb 27, 2014)

Size wasn't issue when I was walking in them. I use thick wool burton socks. In the store they also measured my foot and picked this size. I think burton boots in general don't fit me. This is 2 burton boots and I am not that happy with them. Thanks for the replies, I will try showing them to boot fitter and trying them out with new insoles next Saturday.


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## cav0011 (Jan 4, 2009)

Burton boots don't work For me at all. It's the shape. If you want different boots try nitro or salomon


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## radiomuse210 (Sep 5, 2014)

Extazy said:


> Size wasn't issue when I was walking in them. I use thick wool burton socks. In the store they also measured my foot and picked this size. I think burton boots in general don't fit me. This is 2 burton boots and I am not that happy with them. Thanks for the replies, I will try showing them to boot fitter and trying them out with new insoles next Saturday.


Burton boots haven't worked out well for me either. Had a pair of Motos that not only turned out to be too soft but also didn't fit my feet right. Felt pretty good when I tried them, but I was pretty much a beginner at the time - so wasn't 100% sure what I was looking for in a boot. Switched to 32s and never looked back. Whenever I go boot shopping, I always try on different boots just so I don't miss something that might possibly be better for me than 32s - and every time I try on a Burton boot, it just doesn't feel right. I'm surprised you got Burtons again after your first experience. Although I guess you didn't have any warning signs when you were trying them on. 

Did you wear the same socks trying them on/wearing them around the house as you do riding? You could either spend money/time with a boot fitter which may help or you can try to sell them - although used boots aren't very "sellable". I would try J-bars first with the insole and see if that works any better for you. If not, start pricing boot fitters and see if it would be worth doing that or just taking the loss (and maybe trying to sell the boots) and getting new boots.


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## Fewdfreak (May 13, 2013)

DYI boot fitting worked well for me on boots that have had initial heel lift and loosening up later on due to packout/mushing... J bars worked well as did stick on foam that you can cut to whatever size you want (Tognar sells) like on underside of instepp tongue etc. I would say check that sticky on the forum as is has tons of solutions cheaper than new boots and is *highly* informative. What has also worked well for me is velcro straps I got off Amazon hella cheap that I put around the cuff of my liner above my ankle to prevent any loosening or lift on my already good boots that have softened. I got the idea after seeing a ridiculously priced "booster strap" and simplified that idea.


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## 2hellnbak (Sep 21, 2012)

Boot fitter. Burton boots fit my feet really well but that's just my feet. The best way to tell sight unseen is to put your boots on tight and strap into a board and flex it out on flat ground (this is my lamens way of testing them). Even then I'd try them a few more times and as said add the j-bars. They help a LOT.

A good boot fitter will know what's going on. You need to find a way to keep the heel down and lean forward to see whether or not you have heel lift. My last boot fitter actually held my feet to the ground with his hands and asked me to lean forward to see if there was any heel lift.


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## deagol (Mar 26, 2014)

Snowboard Boot Buyer's Guide | Backcountry.com


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## jtg (Dec 11, 2012)

The real problem was shopping for boots at a store that only has 1 brand of boots.

Also, your 252mm width mans board is too wide, causing you to lean too hard to compensate for lack of leverage, rather than using your ankles to angulate and dig your shins into your boots 

But yeah, J bars should help. The boot fitter on the hill will fix you up.


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## wrathfuldeity (Oct 5, 2007)

jtg said:


> The real problem was shopping for boots at a store that only has 1 brand of boots.
> 
> Also, your 252mm width mans board is too wide, causing you to lean too hard to compensate for lack of leverage, rather than using your ankles to angulate and dig your shins into your boots
> 
> But yeah, J bars should help. The boot fitter on the hill will fix you up.


^^^also this...nice catch jtg...one of the banes of the small footed...width of the board


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## Extazy (Feb 27, 2014)

radiomuse210 said:


> Burton boots haven't worked out well for me either. Had a pair of Motos that not only turned out to be too soft but also didn't fit my feet right. Felt pretty good when I tried them, but I was pretty much a beginner at the time - so wasn't 100% sure what I was looking for in a boot. Switched to 32s and never looked back. Whenever I go boot shopping, I always try on different boots just so I don't miss something that might possibly be better for me than 32s - and every time I try on a Burton boot, it just doesn't feel right. I'm surprised you got Burtons again after your first experience. Although I guess you didn't have any warning signs when you were trying them on.
> 
> Did you wear the same socks trying them on/wearing them around the house as you do riding? You could either spend money/time with a boot fitter which may help or you can try to sell them - although used boots aren't very "sellable". I would try J-bars first with the insole and see if that works any better for you. If not, start pricing boot fitters and see if it would be worth doing that or just taking the loss (and maybe trying to sell the boots) and getting new boots.


I know, last year I bought Motos and 1st 5 times they were great I had lots of fun snowboarding, but then they were so painful to ride that I couldnt even finish one ride, had to take off my boots and wait for pain to go away.

I thought I should just get better Burton boot in size smaller, but now...

And unfortunately there aren't any 32 boots in NYC, I visited many shops and called many too, no one has them. I will email 32 about this because its so disappointing. 70% Boots in NYC are burton. I found 2 shops with nike, 2 shops with solomon and that's pretty much it.

I think I will go to this great store 2,5 miles from the mountain I am riding at, and instead of riding for 1-2 hours try all boots that they have. That is if insoles wont work and boot fitter will say that these boots aren't for me.


jtg said:


> The real problem was shopping for boots at a store that only has 1 brand of boots.
> 
> Also, your 252mm width mans board is too wide, causing you to lean too hard to compensate for lack of leverage, rather than using your ankles to angulate and dig your shins into your boots
> 
> But yeah, J bars should help. The boot fitter on the hill will fix you up.


I haven't ridden that board yet, I only ride it on groomers and on days with lots of snow. Right now I ride Carbon Credit.

If boot fitter will say that J bars will help then I will do it, if not I will probably try to sell boots on ebay and buy new ones.

Everyone thanks for replies, now I know what to do)


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## ekb18c (Mar 11, 2013)

Did you try emeilo's ski shop in Queens? There is also SnoHaus in LI and Paragon near 14th street in Manhattan.


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## Extazy (Feb 27, 2014)

ekb18c said:


> Did you try emeilo's ski shop in Queens? There is also SnoHaus in LI and Paragon near 14th street in Manhattan.


emeilo's carry burton, solomon and some ride.

Never heard of SnoHaus. Called them and yes they will get 2 models of 32. But they are so far from brooklyn, I think I will check shop in Killington 1st!

Thanks for suggestions!


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## Tratrim (Feb 7, 2013)

Don't trash them just yet. I have rulers too, and they simply won't pack out. Especially not in one day. I've had problem with them actually not breaking in and killing my feet. 

You're saying it only happened late in the day, only on your back leg. Since it is on your back leg, and that you seem pretty new to snowboarding, i'm willing to bet you're "legging" your turns and not applying pressure on your edge just yet. 

As i've had this problem too, I'm 99% sure your heel lift comes from technique getting worse with fatigue, and as nothing to do with the boot. 

Next time you feel lift, focus on "pushing" with you shin insted of down with your toes, which will cause your heel to lift.


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## Mizu Kuma (Apr 13, 2014)

I reckon you should try the insoles, but while replacin the original in the front boot, leave the original in the back one and place the new insole on top!!!!!

If this feels better, you can then trim off the front part of the original insole, and re-insert the back portion back under the new insole!!!!!

Then go to C/J Bars if this does nothing!!!!!


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## Wiredsport (Sep 16, 2009)

Hi Ex,

One thing that will help us all a lot. Would you mind pulling the insole out of the boot, standing on it with your heel all the way back in the insole and then snapping a photo shot downwards at your foot?

If possible please do this for both feet.


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## Extazy (Feb 27, 2014)

Hi guys, on my 2nd day I tried using, burton insoles only, remind insoles only and both of them. Pain didn't go away. I rented size 8 boots and was able enjoy rest of my day with very little pain even though I had more heel lift on rental boots. I think this Tuesday I will go to boot fitter at this one sniwboard/ski shop and see what he tells me.


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## Wiredsport (Sep 16, 2009)

> I usually wear 8 size shoes, sometimes 7.5 or 8.5. This Burton Rulers are size 7...


Hi Ex,

Before you take any further (potentially expensive) steps it will likely be very helpful for you to get your Mondo measurement. You are using shoe size as your measurement and that is almost always a sure recipe for boot disaster 

Shoe size will always get you the wrong snowboard boot size. 

Take my size 13 for example. A size 13 in a street shoe can be equal to a size 11, 11.5, 12.25 (depending on what fit standard was used for the shoe - and that production was close to accurate) in a performance fit snowboard boot. All can have a 29.5 foot measurement but the footwear is designed for different functions and using different standards.

Good fit all starts with knowing your mondopoint size and that is easy to find out.

Please measure your foot using this method:

Kick your heel (barefoot please, no socks) back against a wall. Mark the floor exactly at the tip of your toe (the one that sticks out furthest - which toe this is will vary by rider). Measure from the mark on the floor to the wall. That is your foot length and is the only measurement that you will want to use. Measure in centimeters if possible, but if not, take inches and multiply by 2.54 (example: an 11.25 inch foot x 2.54 = 28.57 centimeters).


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## Wiredsport (Sep 16, 2009)

deagol said:


> Snowboard Boot Buyer's Guide | Backcountry.com


As an alternate voice there are two suggestions in there that I would strongly disagree with.

"Know Your Shoe Size"

Humbly, I would suggest, Forget Your Shoe Size. There is no accurate conversion that can be made based on shoe size.

"your toes should barely touch the ends"

That is not snug enough. Performance snowboard boots are designed to have firm contact with the ends of the boot both toe and heel.


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## ShredLife (Feb 6, 2010)

Wiredsport said:


> As an alternate voice there are two suggestions in there that I would strongly disagree with.
> 
> "Know Your Shoe Size"
> 
> ...


and i would say that for most people, including myself - and i ride at a high level, this is a recipe for disaster. 

the problem is making blanket statements about boot fit almost at all, ever. feet are subjective as hell, and so is boot fitment. i realize this doesn't make any of this easier - especially when trying to dole out advice on the internet... but its true.


and Wiredsport, you're so dogmatic about boot sizing and fitment that i can't help but be certain you're wrong at least a good bit of the time.


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## Wiredsport (Sep 16, 2009)

ShredLife said:


> and i would say that for most people, including myself - and i ride at a high level, this is a recipe for disaster.
> 
> the problem is making blanket statements about boot fit almost at all, ever. feet are subjective as hell, and so is boot fitment. i realize this doesn't make any of this easier - especially when trying to dole out advice on the internet... but its true.
> 
> ...


Hi again Shred,

I certainly welcome your opinion as well as the opinion that was linked above. We disagree with both and feel that they will lead to poorly fit products and a degraded riding experience like the OP is having, but we welcome the opinions. That is what makes this a great forum. If we all agreed it would be boring. 

There are some facts involved, though. 

Performance snowboard boots are designed to deliver firm pressure at both ends of the foot cavity for the mondopoint size that is listed on the boot. This is not the case with most other footwear. 

Why the sizing confusion in footwear? Have a look at Brannock sizing (that is the shoe sizing device that is often misused to size snowboard boots in snowboard shops) vs common web sizing vs snowboard boot sizing for your mondopoint foot measurement:

Brannock Device Company, Inc.

Measure Your Shoe Size | Zappos.com

ThirtyTwo Light, Black Orange « Boots « ThirtyTwo, Rider Driven Snowboarding Click the size chart link.


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## ShredLife (Feb 6, 2010)

Wiredsport said:


> Performance snowboard boots are designed to deliver firm pressure at both ends of the foot cavity.


no. pressure to the front/tips of the toes is a real problem. scrunched up toes is a disaster. 

the common axiom is "tips of the toes touching the liner" to allow for some packout. far, far more important than cramming your toes into a boot is how the ball of your foot hits the footbed, and how the boot fits to the bridge of the foot. you don't ride with your toes nearly as much as you ride with the balls of your feet.

personally if i can't wiggle my toes in the tip of the boot it is simply not usable.


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## Wiredsport (Sep 16, 2009)

Here is our posted advice. We are agreed that scrunched toes are certainly not suggested. We are also careful in how we define firm pressure. The design behind firm pressure is not for packout but rather so that fore/aft slip will not occur. That slip if allowed will always make room for some heel lift (even where internal harnesses etc are employed). We try to present riders with both their Brannock Shoe size and their snowboard boot size (as suggested by the manufacturer) so they can understand the difference and use that as a full range. Our suggestion is always that they go with the manufacturer size.


Your boots should be snug!

The most common complaint about boots is that they are too loose, not to tight. The junction between rider and board begins with the boot, as it is in the most direct contact with the rider. When fitting boots, use the following method: A. Slip into the boot. B. Kick your heel back against the ground several times to drive it back into the boot's heel pocket. C. Lace the boot tightly, as though you were going to ride. NOTE: This is where most sizing mistakes are made. A snowboard boot is shaped like an upside down "7". The back has a good degree of forward lean. Thus, when you drop into the boot, your heel may be resting up to an inch away from the back of the boot, and your toes may be jammed into the front of the boot. Until the boot is tightly laced, you will not know if it is a proper fit. D. Your toes should now have firm pressure against the front of the boot. As this is the crux of sizing, let's discuss firm pressure: When you flex your knee forward hard, the pressure should lighten, or cease, as your toes pull back. At no time should you feel numbness or lose circulation. Your toes will be in contact with the end of the boot, unlike in a properly fit street or athletic shoe (snowboard boots are designed to fit more snugly than your other shoes). When you have achieved this combination of firm pressure and no circulation loss, you have found the correct size!


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## ShredLife (Feb 6, 2010)

your boots SHOULD be snug - which has next to nothing to do with whether your toes are "firmly pressured" into the front of the boot.


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## Wiredsport (Sep 16, 2009)

ShredLife said:


> your boots SHOULD be snug - which has next to nothing to do with whether your toes are "firmly pressured" into the front of the boot.


Toe and heel. That is how boots are designed. The materials that are chosen at the toe and heel extremities are designed to allow firm pressure, good circulation and limited movement. As above, we present the range but make our strong suggestion.


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## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

Hmm
Me feet are 27cm (no socks, feet against wall, measure to tip of longest toe).

What size would that be?

I wear US11 32's and one mm extra pressure on my toes and i couldnt use em. And when i stand on boots, the toes are lightly/barely touching the front. There's no way i could wear them with ANY pressure at all.


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## Wiredsport (Sep 16, 2009)

F1EA said:


> Hmm
> Me feet are 27cm (no socks, feet against wall, measure to tip of longest toe).
> 
> What size would that be?
> ...


Please post a picture of your foot standing on the removed insole insert with you heel at the back of the heel dip.


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## neachdainn (Dec 8, 2012)

Same here. Liners do pack out a bit. I bought my first boots based on US sizing, and what I always knew to be "comfortable". Those boots were USELESS. I managed to get halfway through a season with them before I couldn't do it anymore. I was swimming around in them and had very poor control. 

Next set of boots I went by mondo sizing (30), which happened to be a half (us) size smaller, and man... Those were awesome. toes just barely at the end of the footbed, heel locked in... Golden! (For a few months), before they packed out and became a bit looser than I would have liked. 

Next set, I forgot about sizing and just tried on the buggers, finding one where I had a snug fit, more so than my last pair. Standing flat, I had light pressure on the toes, heel was locked in. When moving down into an athletic stance, you can feel your toes pull away a little, and I knew this sizing would do the trick. Absolutely no heel lift, and immediate response on my toes. Even these were PF liners, I still had them moulded and it make a big difference for day 1 comfort. It would usually take a few days of riding to get the liners to where my feet would be genuinely happy, but having them fitted made them perfect from day 1. 

Paired with some good insoles, I can rip all day and have my feet stay comfortable, warm, and retain the response I'm looking for. 

I'm no expert on sizing, but I know what did (and didnt) work for me.


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## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

Wiredsport said:


> Please post a picture of your foot standing on the removed insole insert with you heel at the back of the heel dip.












I was actually getting ready to go boarding...


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## Wiredsport (Sep 16, 2009)

F1EA said:


> I was actually getting ready to go boarding...


Hah! Do that. 

That looks solid. Your heel knob extends past the insert as does your toe. That will ensure some pressure into the soft padding of the toe and heel cups.

It will be cool to know when you have a minute (after riding - beer, yes) what the length of the insert is. 

If you pull out the insole of a skate shoe fit will always be longer than the foot measurement (by up to 2 cm). In snowboard boots the variation (if the design is met by production) is between .25 cm longer to 1 cm smaller than mondo foot measurement. With socks this insures firm pressure.


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## neni (Dec 24, 2012)

Wiredsport said:


> Hah! Do that.
> 
> That looks solid. Your heel knob extends past the insert as does your toe. That will ensure some pressure into the soft padding of the toe and heel cups.
> 
> ...


Interesting thread! Done this insole measuring with a boot I've ordered only yesterday... foot (without socks) measures 24.5cm. This is on a 25.5 insole, the boots are - I thought - too small as the toes smoothely pressure the front. Left foot is the same length as the insole...







btw: same picture with the 25 insole of a different boot...

So far I thought/was told in shops, that toes should have bit room and this so far made sense as toes get squeezed otherwise on long backside traverses :dunno: thus I wanted to swap the boots for a size bigger. hmmm... lost again. Reading your comments now, weird, it soulds as if a tight fit is preferrable, and of neachdainn, it sounds as the boots could fit by time... hmm... would be an expensive experiment...


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## Wiredsport (Sep 16, 2009)

Hi Neni,

Cool. So that I understand,

what is your foot length?
What is your boot labeled for cm/mm size?
What is the actual length of the insole?


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## neni (Dec 24, 2012)

Wiredsport said:


> Hi Neni,
> 
> Cool. So that I understand,
> 
> ...


Foot is 24.5cm, boot labeled as 25.5, sole measures total length with the heel rim 25cm, which confuses me


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## Wiredsport (Sep 16, 2009)

> Foot is 24.5cm
> boot labeled as 25.5
> sole measures - with the heel rim - 25cm


Got it. This is a common example that gives insight into how performance boots are designed. 

The boot is labeled 25.5 cm. By the definition of Mondopoint that means that it is designed to fit a foot that measures 25.5 cm in length from the knob of the heel to the tip of the furthest extending toe.

The liner however is only 25 cm which of course means that a bare foot will exceed the liner length by .5 cm and with socks on it will exceed the liner length by more.

As the stock liner length will equal the base length of the foot cavity this tells us that the design calls for over .5 (barefoot) to 1 cm (with sock) of intended compression into the soft materials of the toe and heel of the boot cavity.

This is the norm in performance snowboard boot design.

Wanna see something interesting?

Take the same picture with the insert from a set of your skate shoes.


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## Argo (Feb 25, 2010)

Personally(this is a key term in boot fit) I think the best feel to me is something that is stiff in flex/tight around the lower leg, ankle and forefoot/toes not touching at all when broken in. I wear a size 12 shoe, size 11.5 boot with a 12 insole.... 11.5 in flow packs out to a 12..... I am going to put a piece of 5mm neoprene on top of my foot for a firmer forefoot fit. I Use flow talon boots.... They are great for wide, thin feet.


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## Argo (Feb 25, 2010)

People need to remember that boots shells are made for a range of sizes, cheaper boots are made for a wider range.... I think my flows go for a half size on the shell with the appropriate liner sized to the labeled size. My 11.5 boot is a shell sized for 11/11.5 liner is 11.5 so I get a better fit than my 12s that would pack out a full size..... The "pro team" from flow explained this to me at SIA a couple years ago which is when I changed down to the 11.5 and I have been happy since.


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## jtg (Dec 11, 2012)

neni said:


> Foot is 24.5cm, boot labeled as 25.5, sole measures total length with the heel rim 25cm, which confuses me


Those are going to be huge on you


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## neni (Dec 24, 2012)

Wiredsport said:


> Got it. This is a common example that gives insight into how performance boots are designed.
> 
> The boot is labeled 25.5 cm. By the definition of Mondopoint that means that it is designed to fit a foot that measures 25.5 cm in length from the knob of the heel to the tip of the furthest extending toe.
> 
> ...


Don't know what "skate shoes" are, but the insoles of my (perfectly fiting, never hurting) hiking boots are abt 7mm longer than my feet. Was this the take home message? Performance snowboarding boots are intentionally smaller designed and can't be compared to e.g. fit of hiking boots?


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## Wiredsport (Sep 16, 2009)

neni said:


> Don't know what "skate shoes" are, but the insoles of my (perfectly fiting, never hurting) hiking boots are abt 7mm longer than my feet. Was this the take home message? Performance snowboarding boots are intentionally smaller designed and can't be compared to e.g. fit of hiking boots?


Hi Neni,

Yes. That is the norm. The cavity of other footwear (such as skate shoes and hiking boots) is designed to be longer and wider than the foot they are intended for. Snowboard boot liners are designed to be shorter and narrower than the foot they are intended for. Compression into the soft materials of the boot is planned for by the design (hopefully well planned for ). This can be tested as above on any footwear product. This is a technique that we use daily in establishing a range for making suggestions on a selected footwear product. This standard sets one side (the "performance" side) of the range. We use a weighted average of what we call "web shoe size" and Brannock size to establish the other side of the range. We try to present both and give our bias.

Please note:

Manufacturing deviation is a real issue and does at times come into play. If you are communicating online, the seller can tell you the actual lengths and widths of the boot cavity which can help a lot.
This in no way changes the fact that "trying on" when possible is the ideal. In reality, however, hundreds of thousands of boots are sold each year without a try-on. Our goal is to make that the best possible experience as well.

STOKED!


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## neni (Dec 24, 2012)

Wiredsport said:


> Hi Neni,
> 
> Yes. That is the norm. The cavity of other footwear (such as skate shoes and hiking boots) is designed to be longer and wider than the foot they are intended for. Snowboard boot liners are designed to be shorter and narrower than the foot they are intended for. Compression into the soft materials of the boot is planned for by the design (hopefully well planned for ). This can be tested as above on any footwear product.


Thanks a lot! 
Well then, seems as I've been buying snowboarding boots the wrong way all these years... gonna try this experiment and keep the 25 boot (I've both @ home, a 25 and 25.5, both PF liners, and even thought, I probably need a 26 cos the 25.5 felt "too" tight :facepalm1::embarrased1.


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## neachdainn (Dec 8, 2012)

I'd hazard a guess that with some proper insoles, the 25s will fit you just dandy, neni. 

I'd also hazard a guess that the 25, and 25.5 outer boots are identical  

Oh, by the way - rode my deeluxe liners in my DCs yesterday, and they felt pretty darn good! Really good ankle support and no heel lift. I think you'll like em! Do yourself a favor and when you decide which liners to keep, get them fitted. Even though they're PF, it made a difference. Even though these are brand new boots and liners, I felt like they were already broken in. 

Waiting for a proper pow say so I can bring out my big board (and big boots!)


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## neni (Dec 24, 2012)

neachdainn said:


> I'd hazard a guess that with some proper insoles, the 25s will fit you just dandy, neni.
> 
> I'd also hazard a guess that the 25, and 25.5 outer boots are identical
> 
> ...


The liners indeed are the same size - which confused me even more . 
Haha... get them fitted. Easily said. I may have to wait till I'm in CO in March to meet a boot fitter the first time. Not a big topic in shops in my region (where I was sold boots by the "1size bigger is a good fit" rule so far).

OP, sorry for the derail.


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## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

Wiredsport said:


> Hah! Do that.
> 
> That looks solid. Your heel knob extends past the insert as does your toe. That will ensure some pressure into the soft padding of the toe and heel cups.
> 
> ...


Insert is 28.5 cm (foot 27cm).

My boots fit perfect; but going by Mondo size, i should ride smaller (like 1/2 size less i think); and yet, with US11 im already JUST there; anything smaller would be impossible.


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## Extazy (Feb 27, 2014)

It appears I have wide feet. Never thought about that. Wow. I just always though that since I have small feet you know it's small every were.

*Wiredsport* Thank you so much for clarification of Mondo system. Now I see what's happening. You see they measured my foot with Brannock system in Burton store, it showed size 7 and they gave me 7. Now in 32s measurements I am 6.5!

I still don't know though, how wide feet should hurt? I never have any pain on the "side" of my feet. It's always at the bottom, like boots try to flatten my feet completely, that inner arch from toe to heel hurts the most.


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## jtg (Dec 11, 2012)

Sounds like you want insoles. See if ski shops in your area make them. Expect to pay around $150.

Or you could go with pre-made ones for like $40. Sole, Superfeet, etc. If you can spare the cash, I'd skip right to the custom molded ones though, and eliminate the guessing.

Edit: I see you got reminds, so probably just go straight for custom.

Is it arch pain, or ball of foot/metatarsal pain? Do you have flat feet or high arches?

Also, wear thinner socks.


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## Extazy (Feb 27, 2014)

jtg said:


> Sounds like you want insoles. See if ski shops in your area make them. Expect to pay around $150.
> 
> Or you could go with pre-made ones for like $40. Sole, Superfeet, etc. If you can spare the cash, I'd skip right to the custom molded ones though, and eliminate the guessing.
> 
> ...


Well I kinda starts from ball and then goes into arch. I think I have normal arch. I did that test were you wet your feet and then stand on paper towel and I had "normal" picture.


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## ekb18c (Mar 11, 2013)

The pains that you are describing sound like my feet pains when I try to put my wide feet into something that isn't wide enough.


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## Extazy (Feb 27, 2014)

ekb18c said:


> The pains that you are describing sound like my feet pains when I try to put my wide feet into something that isn't wide enough.


is that so... Daim do you think heatmolding might help? If not I should just try to sell them on ebay then and get something else. My toes are comfy if I wear boots only in my house though


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## Wiredsport (Sep 16, 2009)

Extazy said:


> You see they measured my foot with Brannock system in Burton store, it showed size 7 and they gave me 7. Now in 32s measurements I am 6.5!


Hi Ex,

Right, the difference between a mondopoint foot measurement and a Brannock Device measurement is significant. The international mondopoint standard is used for designing all snowboard boots. By definition it is the foot measurement in millimeters that the boot is designed for. It is essentially a note to you from the manufacturer saying "this is the measurement we built this boot for". There is of course a (very) small range for each mondopoint size. It is very cool in a sense because it is very use specific (in our case snowboarding).

The ISO standard for mondopoint calls for measuring with typical hose (that's socks in Human language). In actuality for the design of snowboarding boots this is typically done barefoot or with the thinnest foot liner on. For that reason we always suggest barefoot measurement but you may season to taste and would need to make a (it will be small) adjustment if you wear thicker socks (not suggested).

Mondopoint was the result of an international effort in 1991 by the shoe lords  to come up with a single standard that eliminated the huge sizing variances that had arisen from using measurement of the last (the form used to design and build footwear). By turning to measurement of the intended foot a huge improvement was noted for footwear that adopted the standard. This put a pretty heavy burden on the designers using mondopoint as they were tied into a very small fit window where it is very apparent if they get it wrong. 

But...while mondopoint has been adopted by the snowsports industries, it has (sadly) not been adopted for all footwear.

The resulting variance between sizing standards can and does cause a lot of confusion and rightly so. 

The stock insole and other boot structures are of course based around the Mondopoint design length. For that reason if you vary too greatly from the design size it becomes likely that your arch and other foot structures will not align well with the structures of the boots insole and liner. This can cause discomfort and pain. It can also lead to seeking aftermarket solutions to fix the issue which can be a negative and frustrating cycle.


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