# flow 5 vs k2 cinch or other flows?



## Hardy Har

I have been thrilled to see the discriptions on the flow 5 bindings but have also read both good and bad reviews on them as well.

however i have read they are good all-mountain bindings and are unfortunately bad in pow and major mountain riding aka cliffs and deep pow? 

K2 has the cinch and i have been tempted to go with the standard dual strap systems. but want an expert opinion before commiting to them. i just cant trust product distributors(3rd party) product reviews.


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## zk0ot

ive ridden older flows. and all the cinches. i like that cinches open. It seems more logical that the binding will close down securely on the boot. 
where flows only drop the highback... which means that, there has to be some wiggle room within the strap to get your foot in and out. may not be noticable but its there... and after a couple seasons. your boots will have a wear from it.


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## Hardy Har

zk0ot said:


> ive ridden older flows. and all the cinches. i like that cinches open. It seems more logical that the binding will close down securely on the boot.
> where flows only drop the highback... which means that, there has to be some wiggle room within the strap to get your foot in and out. may not be noticable but its there... and after a couple seasons. your boots will have a wear from it.


thats a total bummer. none the less i guess it makes sense to have a strap in to secure high/low points of the foot. but the flow concept seems really good. guess experince pays off


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## Tarzanman

What are you looking for in a binding? I have ridden some older (circa 2005) flows and some mid-quality two strap bindings (Head P4). 

I sold the old 2005 Flow Amp5 bindings and have some 2010 Flow NXT-AT bindings on the way. The Amp5's were very so-so. Heavier than I would have liked and took 1 or 2 runs to set up properly. I have heard it said that you should either use Flow's high end stuff or not at all. Guess I will find out.

Rear entry bindings are more difficult to get back into if you are stuck in deep powder.


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## Hardy Har

Tarzanman said:


> What are you looking for in a binding? I have ridden some older (circa 2005) flows and some mid-quality two strap bindings (Head P4).
> 
> I sold the old 2005 Flow Amp5 bindings and have some 2010 Flow NXT-AT bindings on the way. The Amp5's were very so-so. Heavier than I would have liked and took 1 or 2 runs to set up properly. I have heard it said that you should either use Flow's high end stuff or not at all. Guess I will find out.
> 
> Rear entry bindings are more difficult to get back into if you are stuck in deep powder.


that makes sense. its unfortunate because i really like the concept of the flow style bindings. but im a big, moutain/pow rider and im looking to step my game up for parks jibs and jumps as well. however i will not stray from the pow and want to enjoy blasting through it with ease and comfort. but still falling back to the jib rails and jumps part too.


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## slyder

you can still unbuckle and buckle them with the ratchets just like a conventional binding. Mine are perfect for my conditions and ability Flow NXT ATSE's


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## aiidoneus

slyder said:


> you can still unbuckle and buckle them with the ratchets just like a conventional binding. Mine are perfect for my conditions and ability Flow NXT ATSE's


I am very happy with nxt atse. Even in deep powder you can treat them like a normal binding and pull the one side off, or ratchet it back on. It does take about 3 seconds longer though .... The other flow bindings can do the same thing, just a little easier on a nxt atse.


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## Wiredsport

zk0ot said:


> ... which means that, there has to be some wiggle room within the strap to get your foot in and out.


Just a not on this. Flow bindings can be used in a number of ways nowadays. You can rear enter, conventional enter, rear enter and then ratchet, etc. Probably the most common way is to set the binding once and then reare enter. In that case you would not leave any extra room. Some think that you should be able to kick all the way into the bindings in one step. That is not how they work and you will be missing the best part of this system if you use them that way.

For this style of entry our suggestion is:

Set each of the 4 strap adjustments to the very last tooth on the ladder strap (largest position). Insert your foot (must be tightly laced in the boot-do not set up with a loosely laced boot). Position your foot so that the highback can clear the heel (but just clear it-as far back as possible). Now rathet the strap down to your boot. The binding is now ready to ride. *When you go to kick in again, your boot will not get all the way in.* It will be resting on the highback. That is correct. From this position, pull up on the high back, and stand down on your heel. The boot will "shoehorn" into place. As your boot will always be moist from snow when riding, this is very easy when riding, a bit harder when dry.


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## Leo

Flow every single year improves their bindings. Sometimes they improve drastically. Comparing a pair of 2005 Flows to a 2010 and above is like comparing two totally different bindings from different companies with the only similarity being the look.

Flows used to be tank heavy. That is no longer the case. WiredSport posted weights for various bindings in comparison and Flow was as light as most. Even then, it was heavier by a negligible difference.

I had the '05 Flite 3, '06(?) Pro FS, and the '10 NXT FSE. The FSE's were badass. Very light and responsive. The only reason I don't ride Flows currently is because of canting. My left knee is starting to give me problems and cant beds really help out. I wish Flow would get canting, but they said they have to get rid of their rocker baseplate if they do that. 

Also, Flow has had mini ratchets for the past few seasons. I believe they started that in '09? Basically, they are smaller versions of traditional ratchets. You can unstrap the cap in deep powder situations and strap in like you would with normal bindings. Just undo the outer two ratchets. The SE versions of Flows only have two outer ratchets because the inner two ladders are tool-less adjustments just like traditional bindings.

In my experience, Flow gives you the best edge to edge response. This is just an inherent quality of the cap design. You can really drive into those edges too. What Flow lacks though is lateral flex of traditional bindings. This is why many people feel that Flows aren't as responsive, particularly freestylers. This is the reason I prefer traditional bindings for freestyle riding. But hey, Scotty Lago does fine (for what it's worth ha).

I recommend Flows if you get pressure points on your foot from traditional bindings. Flow distributes this pressure evenly on the top of your boot so it practically eliminates foot fatigue. 

Another benefit is the easy of entry (outside of powder situations). Not because you're going to get in 10 more runs, but because you won't be bending down as long to strap in. Really great for small hills.

If you are doing riding that involves cliff drops and deep powder, I really don't think the 5 is right for you. I'd at least get the AT/ATSE and above. If all you do is freeride like that, then the FRX is the binding for you. The FSE is great for all-mountain riding as well.

One word of caution with Flow bindings... they have more moving parts. That means there are more chances for failure. It's important to check your bindings regularly. I was checking my Flows every time I completely unstrapped. Takes seconds. Contact Flow and request spare hardware and bring that with you on the mountain. The most that has ever happened to me with even my '05 Flites were things like loosening screws. Easy fix with a pocket tool.

Also, the point about the tightness of Flow's cap. You really don't need to crank them down like you do with your traditional straps. Yes, this definitely feels odd at first. Hell, even when you have them cranked down, you're going to have this awkward feeling for a few runs coming off traditional bindings. My first switch to Flows had me falling like I was a noob again. Once I got the learning curve down... beautiful.

You'll also eventually learn techniques to kick in easier. I was able to have my caps fairly tight and still kicked in easy. I was also at the point where I could kick in while skating off the lift. Even kick in at an incline. Definitely takes time to learn all the little tricks like that. No doubt Flows also take a long time to set up and dial in properly. If you're lazy, they might not be the best option. 

And yes, they do create wear on your boots. Mainly on the back of the boot in the heel area. This is due to the highbacks constantly rubbing on them as you lock up. This is why Flow boots have this harder rubber on this area.

Sorry for the dissertation. As a long time Flow user, I have a lot to say about their bindings


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## neednsnow

What he said! Plus, they are great. I won't go back!


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## zk0ot

Wiredsport said:


> ...your boot will not get all the way in.It will be resting on the highback. That is correct. From this position, pull up on the high back, and stand down on your heel. The boot will "shoehorn" into place....


As i said they were older flows ones. but this still sounds like a bit of wear will be put on to the boots. forcing boots into straps that should tightened down. 
IDK thats my view of it....


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## Wiredsport

zk0ot said:


> As i said they were older flows ones. but this still sounds like a bit of wear will be put on to the boots. forcing boots into straps that should tightened down.
> IDK thats my view of it....


If you buy a good boot the wear is similar to the wear from the strap friction of ratcheting a conventional binding. The final slide in is only a few cm, but it makes a world of difference in support. As your boots break in you will need to snug the bindings down again once or twice. I have seen some boots get really beaten up by poor sizing. If the binding is too small and the plastic ladder straps are at their ends, then the slide in, which should be contacting only the base and mono strap can contact the hard platic ladder straps. As with all bindings, sizing is important.


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## zk0ot

true

10-chars


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## hikeswithdogs

Flow's make great binders and the newest I've demo's is a 2009 model(NXT?) but I just never felt as "locked in" as I did with traditional 2 strap bindings. Once I got my Cinches last year uber cheap(120$) on clearance I'll probably never go back to anything else(until I build a split board), I feel as locked in or more so than any bindings I've ever ridden. Yes they are slightly heavier and yes they have more moving parts but I have like 60 hard days on them without issue and have no interest in going back to anything else.

Just for a point of reference I'm one of these guys that likes their bindings so tight I normally go through multiple ratchets and ladders a season but now with the cinches I don't ever have to worry about those "wear" issue. I used to ride K2 AutoEvers which I liked but I kept breaking the steel cables from over tightening so now their backups. :-(


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## BurtonAvenger

Cinches suck ass!


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## KIRKRIDER

Hardy Har said:


> I have been thrilled to see the discriptions on the flow 5 bindings but have also read both good and bad reviews on them as well.
> 
> however i have read they are good all-mountain bindings and are unfortunately bad in pow and major mountain riding aka cliffs and deep pow?
> 
> K2 has the cinch and i have been tempted to go with the standard dual strap systems. but want an expert opinion before commiting to them. i just cant trust product distributors(3rd party) product reviews.


Love my CTXs, in deep pow you can use them as a regular binding.

http://www.snowboardingforum.com/equipment-reviews/33283-k2-cinch-ctx.html


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## hikeswithdogs

BurtonAvenger said:


> Cinches suck ass!


Please elaborate I've had zero issues nor has the other 2 riders I know and were in and out of our binders as fast or faster than others in our crew with flows.


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## Hardy Har

Leo said:


> Flow every single year improves their bindings. Sometimes they improve drastically. Comparing a pair of 2005 Flows to a 2010 and above is like comparing two totally different bindings from different companies with the only similarity being the look.
> 
> Sorry for the dissertation. As a long time Flow user, I have a lot to say about their bindings


I really enjoyed the entire quote leo!!! i have had you post on multiple of my threads and you have been an extreme help. i was looking at the 5's on sale and was like wow thats awesome.

but i appreciate it alot. like i have said in multiple threads i look to grow into an advanced rider and the way you described the flow nxt/at's made alot more sense. thanks a bunch


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## ShredTaos

I've ridden flow and cinch. They were both alright but I really like regular ankle tow straps much more. The flows were 2010 models, their all mountain binding NXT-AT. Here's a few things noticed. They aren't fun to set up, you cant swap boards with your bro's easily, if this is something you like to do stay away. Once they are setup they work well, and actually did cut time off getting strapped in after getting off the lift. Riding them, once finally dialed in, they felt good. Pretty solid. Their weight, they weigh more than my 2009 model ride delta mvmnt bindings by a noticeable amount. And the biggest pet peeve for me with those bindings were in the powder. They are SO hard to get into and actually take 3 times longer than regular bindings in powder. So if you hike a lot of terrain, or ride tons of pow i wouldn't recommend them. BUT for if you are riding groomers, and never swapping gear, they are great- and faster than standard bindings.

The cinch i only rode once, one a groomer day so i dont have as much input. But for some reason i wasnt a huge fan of those either, same with GNU's binding system. It might just be me but i trust the tightness that i feel when strapped in with a conventional binding.


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## Leo

I just don't understand the powder complaint with Flows. That reputation should have died out once the mini ratchets were implemented. 

Just release the two outer buckles and strap in like any other traditional binding in powder. Problem solved.


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## hikeswithdogs

I think one thing is key with all these fast in\out bindings, is initial setup is key it's really important they are configured to fit your boot size and riding style.


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## ShredTaos

Leo said:


> I just don't understand the powder complaint with Flows. That reputation should have died out once the mini ratchets were implemented.
> 
> Just release the two outer buckles and strap in like any other traditional binding in powder. Problem solved.


If only it were that easy. At least the bindings i was using, to get the buckles to release so you could strap in like standard bindings takes A TON of force, like they dont release easily. Every time I want to undo the foot strap i have to push as hard as i can to get it to release. Granted this is probably because ive only released the top strap 15 or 20 times total so they never got warn in and easy to do. I was always hesitant to undo the top strap because of how long they took to get dialed in in the first place, idk.

Again, I'm not dissing these bindings. I also didn't know that they had a "stigma" of being bad in the pow, this is just my personal experience. Opinions are like assholes... :dunno:


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## BurtonAvenger

hikeswithdogs said:


> Please elaborate I've had zero issues nor has the other 2 riders I know and were in and out of our binders as fast or faster than others in our crew with flows.


What do you want to know? That there's a dead spot in the lateral flex where the hinge over laps? Or the fact that the pull down strap is poorly designed so that it pops out and people have to fidget with it? Lack of adjustability comes to mind as well. I love K2 stuff but the Cinch is just a gimmicky binding designed to appease the people that are too lazy to spend 10 seconds strapping in and bending at the waist. Flow has a better system that doesn't impede flexion. I will give K2 one credit their system opens up wider making it ever so slightly easier to get in but that is it. Worst binding I've ever used in my life and I've ridden some fucking turds.


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## KIRKRIDER

It's not about being too lazy, its just more practical. I can strap in on the chairlift or flexing down on one hand and pulling the hinge with the other,(Like a starting runner) using the same effort you would put in scratching your calf, instead of dropping my ass on the snow and have the next rider drop in front of me. I am sure there are stiffer bindings out there, but what's some (alleged) lateral play do? the rider-boot-board system is flexible anyway, unless you refer to an alpine board. If you pair the CTX with a stiff and narrow profile boot (Driver-X) you get the best combination I think. After a 30 day season I only had to re tighten few screws around. I am not going back to regular bindings.


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## slyder

Regaurdless of the typical debates, one huge decision for me was time. Everyone says it's only marginally faster. Our local hill is small in height and very crowded. So any time I can save was important to me. We don't have powder or big long runs. Plus I'm not old and decrepid but kicking in and one quick flip up is perfect for me. Maybe not for everyone but I was only considering me.

Once you set them up a few times, you will be a pro. I can have mine set up from scratch and be in at the same time most of my buddies are locked in. So I find this a non-issue as like most new things "the first is the worst". Once you've dialed them in a few times it's not a issue.


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## BurtonAvenger

KIRKRIDER said:


> It's not about being too lazy, its just more practical. I can strap in on the chairlift or flexing down on one hand and pulling the hinge with the other,(Like a starting runner) using the same effort you would put in scratching your calf, instead of dropping my ass on the snow and have the next rider drop in front of me. I am sure there are stiffer bindings out there, but what's some (alleged) lateral play do? the rider-boot-board system is flexible anyway, unless you refer to an alpine board. If you pair the CTX with a stiff and narrow profile boot (Driver-X) you get the best combination I think. After a 30 day season I only had to re tighten few screws around. I am not going back to regular bindings.


Who the hell sits down to strap in? Can't people just bend at the fucking waist? Also that lateral dead spot is bullshit if you're trying to tweak anything it's a triangular point that deadens the binding and the way I ride I can't drive through it the way every other binding allows me to. Like I said love K2 stuff ridden their bindings almost exclusively for 5 years but I fucking hate the whole Cinch system it's a turd.


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## Hardy Har

slyder said:


> Regaurdless of the typical debates, one huge decision for me was time. Everyone says it's only marginally faster. Our local hill is small in height and very crowded. So any time I can save was important to me. We don't have powder or big long runs. Plus I'm not old and decrepid but kicking in and one quick flip up is perfect for me. Maybe not for everyone but I was only considering me.
> 
> Once you set them up a few times, you will be a pro. I can have mine set up from scratch and be in at the same time most of my buddies are locked in. So I find this a non-issue as like most new things "the first is the worst". Once you've dialed them in a few times it's not a issue.


i used to be biased on the traditional two strap system because that was all i ever knew. but i cant diss something i never got to try so with that being noted i am open to try these bindings. i am actually looking at the nxt-at's now and still havent gotten to see a horrible review. i am going to try the bindings tomorrow and lace up multiple boots to get the right feel hopefully for the right price. we shall see. but all inputs have been greatly appreciated and in the end i still see no actually flaw with what i will be accomplishing in my snow career


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## slyder

Hardy Har said:


> i used to be biased on the traditional two strap system because that was all i ever knew. but i cant diss something i never got to try so with that being noted i am open to try these bindings. i am actually looking at the nxt-at's now and still havent gotten to see a horrible review. i am going to try the bindings tomorrow and lace up multiple boots to get the right feel hopefully for the right price. we shall see. but all inputs have been greatly appreciated and in the end i still see no actually flaw with what i will be accomplishing in my snow career


Are you doing this in a store I assume. If so one thing I have found and has been mentioned many times, the dry boot going into the binding is sometimes hard. The moisture of snow on the boot and binding greatly decrease the friction, and the feeling "is" much different when you are on snow as opposed to a store or your house. Just in case you weren't aware of this.
When you adjust the "power strap" it may feel loose compared to conventional, but mine never feels loose or like I would pop out on the hill. The full pressure is awesome.

TIP: I found this from a shop guy at our local hill. My boy wanted a little more toe control he felt it was kinda loose. He said to move the position of the front of the power strap back one position on the base plate. It will then kind of curl down giving more or feel of more toe pressure. My boy liked that better, he had Flow "Fives" 09/10 model

I'm a dad new to snowboarding beginning of my 3rd season. I am getting better at riding, park, and jumping, hoping for 3's this year and I have never felt at a disadvantage because of the bindings. I did use traditional for a year and am happy I switched. If I do go back I got my kids a set of Flux, that is probably what I would switch to.


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## Hardy Har

slyder said:


> Are you doing this in a store I assume. If so one thing I have found and has been mentioned many times, the dry boot going into the binding is sometimes hard. The moisture of snow on the boot and binding greatly decrease the friction, and the feeling "is" much different when you are on snow as opposed to a store or your house. Just in case you weren't aware of this.
> When you adjust the "power strap" it may feel loose compared to conventional, but mine never feels loose or like I would pop out on the hill. The full pressure is awesome.
> 
> TIP: I found this from a shop guy at our local hill. My boy wanted a little more toe control he felt it was kinda loose. He said to move the position of the front of the power strap back one position on the base plate. It will then kind of curl down giving more or feel of more toe pressure. My boy liked that better, he had Flow "Fives" 09/10 model


I didnt really assume that seeing as how the last time i went boarding was in the indoor snow hill in DUBAI! and their gear was the worst thing ever. but moving on..

I am going for the nxs-at bindings and i am aware that those are much better. but my goal with this in store try-out is to get the feel of how the bindings will essentially feel on the boot and foot when getting in. i guess like a fitting for first comfort and the idea if how it works.


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## t21

i just purchased a 2011 flow 5 and this is my first flow binding. it was on sale and i jump on it.i used union last year but since my issues with my knees and back i'm trying out the flows.now,after reading some of the post the negative about the flow 5 binding in deep pow kindda sucks. but why is the flow 5 not as good in deep pow? i'm an intermediate rider and cliff jumpimg is out for me but deep pow(knee high)are the fun runs i look for. is it just because its harder to get your boot back in? but i thought thats why you can strap traditionally now with their new 4 mini ratchets that unstraps.i know that i should have bought a nxt-at but just cannot afford it.and i hope that the flow 5 would suit me well for the type of terrains i ride(no park)but i'm keeping my union force for now,hopefully i do not have to put it back on again but instead upgrade to the nxt-at someday.


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## hikeswithdogs

BurtonAvenger said:


> What do you want to know? That there's a dead spot in the lateral flex where the hinge over laps? Or the fact that the pull down strap is poorly designed so that it pops out and people have to fidget with it? Lack of adjustability comes to mind as well. I love K2 stuff but the Cinch is just a gimmicky binding designed to appease the people that are too lazy to spend 10 seconds strapping in and bending at the waist. Flow has a better system that doesn't impede flexion. I will give K2 one credit their system opens up wider making it ever so slightly easier to get in but that is it. Worst binding I've ever used in my life and I've ridden some fucking turds.



Interesting I don't have an issue with any of those things never had a single problem, but I honestly don't want any flex as I don't spend anytime in the park, huh well to each his own I guess thanks for the additional info.


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## Hardy Har

t21 said:


> i just purchased a 2011 flow 5 and this is my first flow binding. it was on sale and i jump on it.i used union last year but since my issues with my knees and back i'm trying out the flows.now,after reading some of the post the negative about the flow 5 binding in deep pow kindda sucks. but why is the flow 5 not as good in deep pow? i'm an intermediate rider and cliff jumpimg is out for me but deep pow(knee high)are the fun runs i look for. is it just because its harder to get your boot back in? but i thought thats why you can strap traditionally now with their new 4 mini ratchets that unstraps.i know that i should have bought a nxt-at but just cannot afford it.and i hope that the flow 5 would suit me well for the type of terrains i ride(no park)but i'm keeping my union force for now,hopefully i do not have to put it back on again but instead upgrade to the nxt-at someday.


Well i guess all i can really add to or tell you is that i would be happy to let you know how the nxt-at's are and give you a low down of how i felt they ride. it wont be until december but at least i will be happy to give you a review. i am going to be trying them on tomorrow without board so its going to be an interesting experience.

as for the reviews on the 5 i liked what i saw until the bigger jumps and deep pow were almost a no-no. i want to grow into that so having something now would be like getting a puppy. except this puppy is already trained.


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## SBE

*well*

I don't know about the k2's but i got a pair of flow's and the high backs fell down while I was in a jump line,(not safe) so that was it for me. Plus when I worked in a shop that sold them they were the ones that came back all the time with missing hardware. On the funny side I sold this couple there set up and was try'n to steer them away from flow but they really wanted flow. A couple of weeks later I see these 2 people have'n trouble, so I ride up and its them! I had a face wrap on so they couldn't tell it was me, some of the screws that held the high back on had shaken out. I helped as much as I could but they were screwd. Get a pair of contrabands they are so easy to get in and out of,and the don't suck! Flow boards are good on the plus side but those bindings gotta go! Also whenever I see people try'n to get in and out of them it doesn't look so easy.


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## Leo

SBE said:


> I don't know about the k2's but i got a pair of flow's and the high backs fell down while I was in a jump line,(not safe) so that was it for me. Plus when I worked in a shop that sold them they were the ones that came back all the time with missing hardware. On the funny side I sold this couple there set up and was try'n to steer them away from flow but they really wanted flow. A couple of weeks later I see these 2 people have'n trouble, so I ride up and its them! I had a face wrap on so they couldn't tell it was me, some of the screws that held the high back on had shaken out. I helped as much as I could but they were screwd. Get a pair of contrabands they are so easy to get in and out of,and the don't suck! Flow boards are good on the plus side but those bindings gotta go! Also whenever I see people try'n to get in and out of them it doesn't look so easy.


Again, what particular models and years? What were the bulk of the problems? Loose screws? Did any of them carry spare hardware with them? I have to do that with my 390 Bosses and it's not a big deal to me because the bindings are so good. I'm not going to abandon my Bosses just because I'm too lazy to check the hardware or carry a spare set.

I had the ankle strap on my Bosses come completely undone during a small jump on a steep run. You know what I did? I hit Rome up for replacement buckles and they sent me a much better set. You can take these types of issues from other riders and preemptively contact the manufacturer for parts from the get-go.

For every Flow malfunction story you bring up, there are literally dozens more that have 0 issue. I rode Flows for 5 seasons and have demoed them more. The only time I ever had a highback unlock during a run was the time I didn't lock it in properly. Well, I can't be 100% sure this was why, but I came to that conclusion because it never happened again. This was on the pair of '05 Flite 3s.

I will fiercely defend Flow. They don't deserve the bad rep they get. If you see people having trouble stepping into Flows, they are new to the tech or they just plain can't set them up correctly. 

I'm honestly admitting that Flows have a lot of moving parts so you should expect things like loosening screws. I also fully acknowledge that people should demo them first if they can. That goes for any gear really. This is why I urge people to always, no matter the binding or company, contact the manufacturer and request spare hardware. No good brand will deny such a request when the user's concern is for safety. Carry that with you on the mountain with a pocket tool. Safe practice for any hardware.


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## SBE

I feel ya, and they were from about 5 seasons ago fs-? they were grey with snow como highbacks, and I think they didnt temper the metal and when it got out in the cold the metal would shrink and release, anyway I delt with some pissed off customers at the shop when they spent 500 on a binding and the thing falls apart on them first run on the trip they planned for a year! Now there at some resort that doesn't cary flow and they have to buy a pair of cartels from the mtn shop, now do you think that the cusomer wants to hear that they should cary spare parts around with them. NO they don't, they just want a product that works, thats it. Its never a good sign when the rep sends a full toolbox of parts because they know its gonna fall apart, ya feel me? My bindings work great there simple and im in and out of them with the quickness,not try'n to hate just state'n my experience with them. My boy loved the way his nxt-fs felt but he stopped use'n them cuz they were constantly falling to pieces and he didn't want to spend all day fix'n his binding, he wanted to ride and I understand that just fine.


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## SBE

ps I never badmouth product in the shop.


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## KIRKRIDER

BurtonAvenger said:


> Who the hell sits down to strap in? Can't people just bend at the fucking waist? Also that lateral dead spot is bullshit if you're trying to tweak anything it's a triangular point that deadens the binding and the way I ride I can't drive through it the way every other binding allows me to. Like I said love K2 stuff ridden their bindings almost exclusively for 5 years but I fucking hate the whole Cinch system it's a turd.



I hear ya Avenger, you hate them, but you're not being objective. Even bending at the waist is not "better" than reaching your calf and pulling up a lever as you slide, most of the times. that play is pressed back into the binding once you pull the high backs up, and when you turn you apply your weight to your toes or your heels, not really to the side of your ankle. Of course there are stiffer bindings, but this binding works as advertised for me, not a turd at all. Maybe the first models were shitty.


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## t21

so basically the flow 5 only sucks on deep powder because its harder to buckle up again it you get stuck right?? other than that its good.and with the new ratchet system they have it should be better than the older flows, right?


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## Hardy Har

t21 said:


> so basically the flow 5 only sucks on deep powder because its harder to buckle up again it you get stuck right?? other than that its good.and with the new ratchet system they have it should be better than the older flows, right?


i tried the nxt-at's today and when it came down to the feel of the binding on my foot it felt great. granted the binding wasnt attached to a board so it was just a hey this is how it works. the ratchet system on it works like the 2 strap set of old(pull up on the ratchet to get out). however my major concern now is that the flows have alot of moving parts and the ratchet systems buckles and straps are really thin. so im just not sure on how i want to do it. seems like super glue and dont ratchet would be a great idea for these.


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## slyder

Hardy Har said:


> seems like super glue and dont ratchet would be a great idea for these.


 Not sure what this means :dunno: but the only moving parts are 

A pivot on the highback that is lock-tite in place
A lever to snap in place
Rachets that you barely use
One more moving part than a regular set of bindings.
Highback that has a pivot
Rachet you use every strap in


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## Wiredsport

t21 said:


> so basically the flow 5 only sucks on deep powder because its harder to buckle up again it you get stuck right?? other than that its good.and with the new ratchet system they have it should be better than the older flows, right?


Hi,

It is no harder to buckle back in. Just front enter using the ratchets like you would on any conentional two strap bindings. This has not been an issue for 3 seasons now.


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## t21

thanks,that settles it. i'll get mine set at home then play with it once the resorts open.as far as i what i've read flow 5 is a good all mountain bindings though not in the caliber of the nxt's. but that's ok for me as a first time user of flow bindings. cannot wait to try them out. one more dumb question, where do you attached the leash on this binding?


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## snowklinger

maybe I dont have my contrabands dialed right but I can assure you they are not problem free.

someone here defended them earlier, but mine suck ass in powder. because the pinky toe has nothing to keep it down, your front pinky toe will gather fresh snow (if there is any) under it, building until the point where it pops out and becomes not only unrideable, but painful as fuck.


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## slyder

t21 said:


> where do you attached the leash on this binding?


We don't use leashes here but any where on the base plate I would think would be fine. Use the foot that stays in the binding as well.


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## Donutz

snowklinger said:


> maybe I dont have my contrabands dialed right but I can assure you they are not problem free.
> 
> someone here defended them earlier, but mine suck ass in powder. because the pinky toe has nothing to keep it down, your front pinky toe will gather fresh snow (if there is any) under it, building until the point where it pops out and becomes not only unrideable, but painful as fuck.


Do you think the nitranes would be better with the webbing?


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## t21

slyder said:


> We don't use leashes here but any where on the base plate I would think would be fine. Use the foot that stays in the binding as well.


thanks, i just notice that there is room on the heelcup area once its strapped on.


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## Hardy Har

slyder said:


> Not sure what this means :dunno: but the only moving parts are
> 
> A pivot on the highback that is lock-tite in place
> A lever to snap in place
> Rachets that you barely use
> One more moving part than a regular set of bindings.
> Highback that has a pivot
> Rachet you use every strap in


what i meant was if it really became a problem that materials kept coming off or parts would come out use super glue


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## vrecksler

I'd advise anyone riding a strap binding that's thinking of going to a Flow binding to TRY BEFORE YOU BUY. Not just strapping in at the store either, demo them for several runs.

I liked the Flow setup for convenience but that's about it. I have the Team's, and also had a pair of NXT's and for sure they were comfortable (once dialed in) and easy to get in and out of. 

My issue is that they were bloody stiff! I love the concept but not the implementation and switched back to straps after 2 years simply because I prefer a little give.

So I'm not saying the Flow's are bad, they're not, I'm just saying try them out before hand. If I had taken my own advice, I still would have bought them because for instructing they're nice and quick but not for my freeriding binding.


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## Wiredsport

vrecksler said:


> I'd advise anyone riding a strap binding that's thinking of going to a Flow binding to TRY BEFORE YOU BUY. Not just strapping in at the store either, demo them for several runs.
> 
> I liked the Flow setup for convenience but that's about it. I have the Team's, and also had a pair of NXT's and for sure they were comfortable (once dialed in) and easy to get in and out of.
> 
> My issue is that they were bloody stiff! I love the concept but not the implementation and switched back to straps after 2 years simply because I prefer a little give.
> 
> So I'm not saying the Flow's are bad, they're not, I'm just saying try them out before hand. If I had taken my own advice, I still would have bought them because for instructing they're nice and quick but not for my freeriding binding.


Hi Vrecksler,

This year's NXT line has 4 models. They range from very stiff to a power freestyle flex. Flow uses a 1-5 scale (5 is stiffest) for Flex and rates the NXT's at 4, 4.5, 4.5 and 5. Flow uses 3 different higback configurations on the NXT's this season. The NXT FRX uses The Ventilated Highback with only 15% Nylon inclusion. The AT's and AT SE's use the modular highback with the composite support panel, the NXT FSE uses the Modular highback with the Tweak 7 (urethane) support panel. Additionally, there are two differnt straps and two different bases used in the NXT line.

That is just the NXT line (which is only 4 of Flow's 20 2012 models). The M9 is a full on all mountain freestyle model. Flow rates that binding at 3.5 stiffness and produces an SE as well as a standard M9. The Five and the Quattro go down to 3 and 2.5 stiffness respectively.

Flow produces a very technical product. It has evolved over 16 years and requires a bit more knowledge to select the perfect model as the lineup is now very diverse. 

If you are ever in Oregon, stop by our facility and I will set you up with a pair to demo at no charge. I know if we get you out on some 2012 M9's you will come back smiling


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## Hardy Har

Wiredsport said:


> Hi Vrecksler,
> 
> This year's NXT line has 4 models. They range from very stiff to a power freestyle flex. Flow uses a 1-5 scale (5 is stiffest) for Flex and rates the NXT's at 4, 4.5, 4.5 and 5. Flow uses 3 different higback configurations on the NXT's this season. The NXT FRX uses The Ventilated Highback with only 15% Nylon inclusion. The AT's and AT SE's use the modular highback with the composite support panel, the NXT FSE uses the Modular highback with the Tweak 7 (urethane) support panel. Additionally, there are two differnt straps and two different bases used in the NXT line.
> 
> That is just the NXT line (which is only 4 of Flow's 20 2012 models). The M9 is a full on all mountain freestyle model. Flow rates that binding at 3.5 stiffness and produces an SE as well as a standard M9. The Five and the Quattro go down to 3 and 2.5 stiffness respectively.


so would you suggest the m9's for freestyle and nxt-at for all mountain?


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## vrecksler

Wiredsport said:


> Hi Vrecksler,
> 
> This year's NXT line has 4 models. They range from very stiff to a power freestyle flex. Flow uses a 1-5 scale (5 is stiffest) for Flex and rates the NXT's at 4, 4.5, 4.5 and 5.
> 
> If you are ever in Oregon, stop by our facility and I will set you up with a pair to demo at no charge. I know if we get you out on some 2012 M9's you will come back smiling


Thanks for the update, and I think that was a very smart move for Flow. When instructing I'd switch between Burton's old step-in system and the Flows, and even though I was using a soft boot with the Flow's it felt almost like a hard boot...which I found was great for splitboarding (too cheap to get a split specific binding) but not for freeride/freestyle.

I'm not in Oregon much but if I am ever in the neighbourhood, I'll definitely stop in.


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## Wiredsport

Hardy Har said:


> so would you suggest the m9's for freestyle and nxt-at for all mountain?


The "AT" in NXT AT stands for all terrain. Yes, that is a great choice as an all mountain model. The M9 is a mid flex freestyle model.


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## Hardy Har

Wiredsport said:


> The "AT" in NXT AT stands for all terrain. Yes, that is a great choice as an all mountain model. The M9 is a mid flex freestyle model.


have you rode the 2012 nxt-at model? hows the hardware issues everyone has been ranting about? what about the ratchet system? how are the straps on those? they seemed flimsy when i looked at them


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## Wiredsport

Hardy Har said:


> have you rode the 2012 nxt-at model? hows the hardware issues everyone has been ranting about? what about the ratchet system? how are the straps on those? they seemed flimsy when i looked at them


Hi,

Yes, I have been able to try all of the NXT 2012's except the FRX. The hardware is bomber. Equal or superior to other bindings in each price class. Flow has among the lowest warranty rates in the industry. That includes small part failures. You mentioned the ladder straps on these bindings. They are similar dimension to almost every other company that produces high quality bindings. Many have those have gone to reduced ladders (Flow has not). We still have an almost full part kit from last year.


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## slyder

I or someone one should post of short video of up-close and personal on the bindings.

Hardy you will hear good/bad on any brand. You sound like you like them I think you should just take the plunge and try them. I know money is not free but worst case senario, you can sell them at 75% of new, I'm sure someone will take them.


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## Hardy Har

slyder said:


> I or someone one should post of short video of up-close and personal on the bindings.
> 
> Hardy you will hear good/bad on any brand. You sound like you like them I think you should just take the plunge and try them. I know money is not free but worst case senario, you can sell them at 75% of new, I'm sure someone will take them.


very good point. and wired thanks anyways. big help


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## Wiredsport

slyder said:


> I or someone one should post of short video of up-close and personal on the bindings.


That is a solid idea


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## lisevolution

If you're going to get rear-entry bindings the flows are definitely the way to go. I picked up a pair of the Cinch CTX's last year and my initial impressions were positive. However by the end of the season I decided I was done with them. First the cable would slide out of the guide on the heel cup like 85% of the time, secondly the ladders were too wide for the ratchets or something because they were a bitch open when needed to be used as a traditional bidning basically eliminating the advantage of them over the Flows in that sense. Beyond those flaws they just felt sloppy...laterally I always felt like I was going to break them from putting too much leverage on them and lognitudinally they were terrible for response. To make any adjustments was a PITA as well and the stupidest thing they did was removing the traditional ratchet on the toe and replacing with a micro, locking manual ratchet that basically made it impossible to adjust fit properly. Overall they were probably the worst binding I used in the last 10 years. Yes on straight east coast groomer days they were fine but so is every binding. Also with the stupid cable coming out of the guide as often as it did it made it take longer to get in than regular strap bindings. 

The only issue with the flows is the snow build up you can accumulate on the sole of your boot wich can somewhat throw off the fit but that can be easily cured.

For this season I'm back contemplating between the flows or going with the K2 Evers.


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## zk0ot

lisevolution said:


> ... secondly the ladders were too wide for the ratchets or something because they were a bitch open ...


* not factory flaw.... they actually did this purposefully. the intention was to make the straps stay put... so bumping the release wouldnt mean youd have to readjust. It takes effort to release the straps.... frustrating if using them as a traditional strap in.


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## hikeswithdogs

lisevolution said:


> If you're going to get rear-entry bindings the flows are definitely the way to go. I picked up a pair of the Cinch CTX's last year and my initial impressions were positive. However by the end of the season I decided I was done with them. First the cable would slide out of the guide on the heel cup like 85% of the time, secondly the ladders were too wide for the ratchets or something because they were a bitch open when needed to be used as a traditional bidning basically eliminating the advantage of them over the Flows in that sense. Beyond those flaws they just felt sloppy...laterally I always felt like I was going to break them from putting too much leverage on them and lognitudinally they were terrible for response. To make any adjustments was a PITA as well and the stupidest thing they did was removing the traditional ratchet on the toe and replacing with a micro, locking manual ratchet that basically made it impossible to adjust fit properly. Overall they were probably the worst binding I used in the last 10 years. Yes on straight east coast groomer days they were fine but so is every binding. Also with the stupid cable coming out of the guide as often as it did it made it take longer to get in than regular strap bindings.
> 
> The only issue with the flows is the snow build up you can accumulate on the sole of your boot wich can somewhat throw off the fit but that can be easily cured.
> 
> For this season I'm back contemplating between the flows or going with the K2 Evers.



Wow your the second person to mention this, I bought the CTS last season on clearance I just needed a 2nd set of bindings(for backup) and they were like a 100$ so I said screw it as they seemed to work well in the store. I got them mounted and never bothered with my 2009 AutoEvers(after I kept breaking wires) ever again they fit great and lock down tighter than any other binders I've ever used.

I think the key is this though, they work far far better with low profile boots(think F22's) larger more conventional boots seem to have issues with fit\flex and clamshell closure design. I've never experienced any of these issues and once I got them adjusted properly I fell in love. Used them in multiple 2-3 foot powder days in Utah and glare ice in the Midwest, never needed to use the conventional strap option even in deep powder I just roll over on my stomach lift up my boot board and insert boot. Who knows maybe this season I'll start having issues with them but so far so good and I have the cheaper mid level CTS's. I'm 5'11 190Lbs 10.5 size feet and have about 40 days on them from last season.


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## Hardy Har

It seems as though anything you(in general) buy, you create an opinion based on what you like and are used to. so its like getting a new baseball glove. u might be iffy on how stiff it is but once broke in it becomes much nice. and wear and tear happens with alot of things. but as i have to keep asking myself about how more moving parts can mean more things falling apart, what are those chances and i think ill just roll with the flow(hahaha).


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## SBE

You do You! Just make sure you get some extra hardware and a tool with ya!


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## Hardy Har

SBE said:


> You do You! Just make sure you get some extra hardware and a tool with ya!


might just be the case. i dont know yet though. its a tough decision. hard to buy a product that you base off of other peoples suggestions.


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## KIRKRIDER

lisevolution said:


> If you're going to get rear-entry bindings the flows are definitely the way to go. I picked up a pair of the Cinch CTX's last year and my initial impressions were positive. However by the end of the season I decided I was done with them. First the cable would slide out of the guide on the heel cup like 85% of the time, secondly the ladders were too wide for the ratchets or something because they were a bitch open when needed to be used as a traditional bidning basically eliminating the advantage of them over the Flows in that sense. Beyond those flaws they just felt sloppy...laterally I always felt like I was going to break them from putting too much leverage on them and lognitudinally they were terrible for response. To make any adjustments was a PITA as well and the stupidest thing they did was removing the traditional ratchet on the toe and replacing with a micro, locking manual ratchet that basically made it impossible to adjust fit properly. Overall they were probably the worst binding I used in the last 10 years. Yes on straight east coast groomer days they were fine but so is every binding. Also with the stupid cable coming out of the guide as often as it did it made it take longer to get in than regular strap bindings.
> 
> The only issue with the flows is the snow build up you can accumulate on the sole of your boot wich can somewhat throw off the fit but that can be easily cured.
> 
> For this season I'm back contemplating between the flows or going with the K2 Evers.


Did you play with the high back angle a lot? That's a way to get the guide out of alignment. Never had a single issue with CINCH CTX (2010). I do use a small profile boot...slides in perfectly. There has to be something loose..I have no issues with mine. And yes, those small ratchets are supposed to stay locked


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