# 'Bending at the Waist' - stretches/exercises?



## Argo (Feb 25, 2010)

The main thing is to keep your knees, ankles and hips actively moving. Early on they say bend your knees more so you can learn those movements. 

Do yoga, go to a class or just youtube it and do it in your living room. Not all hard core shit but the beginner yoga stretches, hip opening stretches, joint flexibility stuff... I am a fat bastard but do a few sessions a week of yoga in the off season and if I am not riding for a couple days. Do some workouts like lunges, deep body weight squats just to get juices flowing in those joints.

Even with the flexibility you still want to get used to the knee bend, athletic posturing that you want to be riding in. Learn the motions and proper posturing now so when you start going faster and riding harder stuff it is just natural. 

Take lessons.
Watch @wrathfuldeity basement psycho perv video
Snowboard more.


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## speedjason (May 2, 2013)

Bending at the knees and hip. Not the waist.


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## SlvrDragon50 (Mar 25, 2017)

Argo said:


> The main thing is to keep your knees, ankles and hips actively moving. Early on they say bend your knees more so you can learn those movements.
> 
> Do yoga, go to a class or just youtube it and do it in your living room. Not all hard core shit but the beginner yoga stretches, hip opening stretches, joint flexibility stuff... I am a fat bastard but do a few sessions a week of yoga in the off season and if I am not riding for a couple days. Do some workouts like lunges, deep body weight squats just to get juices flowing in those joints.
> 
> ...


And do your stretches every day and for an appropriate amount of time. Don't hold stretches for just 5 seconds. Try for 30 seconds or even a minute. Yoga is good, but it may be difficult if you can't find a class that works for you (or don't want to spend the money). Squats are also super helpful for overall strength and mobility. When you squat, don't forget to go parallel or past parallel. Don't do the bro squat and only hit 140*. You might not be able to do the full ROM right away but keep pushing yourself. Hip mobility is important too.


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## g3greg (Mar 6, 2018)

SlvrDragon50 said:


> And do your stretches every day and for an appropriate amount of time. Don't hold stretches for just 5 seconds. Try for 30 seconds or even a minute. Yoga is good, but it may be difficult if you can't find a class that works for you (or don't want to spend the money). Squats are also super helpful for overall strength and mobility. When you squat, don't forget to go parallel or past parallel. Don't do the bro squat and only hit 140*. You might not be able to do the full ROM right away but keep pushing yourself. Hip mobility is important too.


Static stretching longer than 30 seconds may cause hypoxia and has no additional benefit, UNLESS it's the calves. Great advice on full range of motion :grin:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9327823


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## snowman55 (Feb 17, 2012)

Do some "Good morning" weight exercise.


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## ChadL (Jan 9, 2020)

Same issue over here. When people say, 'get low' i end up looking like a closing suit case rather than bending at the knees. When i try to bend at the knees more i'm way off balance. Have you discovered any specific stretches that helped? thanks to this thread I'll be adding Good mornings and squats.


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## Rip154 (Sep 23, 2017)

Sounds more like a strength issue than flexibility.


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## ChadL (Jan 9, 2020)

more squats? where is the strength needed?


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## neni (Dec 24, 2012)

Rip154 said:


> Sounds more like a strength issue than flexibility.


Agree.



ChadL said:


> more squats? where is the strength needed?


Do the carpet test .

Squat down with upper body bent fwd. Easy, right? Cos your upper body balances out the butt which sticks out backwards. Easy on muscles, but not the position you want for riding.

So now bend those knees, but keep pelvis aligned over the imaginary board between feet and upper rather body straight. You immediately feel that the shin muscles, outer upper thigh and lowe back muscles have to WORK for that position. So there you go. Those are the muscles you need to strengthen, and remind to use them next time on slope


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## Radialhead (Jan 3, 2018)

Get an Indo board (or make one) & learn to do squats on it. It's great for your balance & core strength, & forces you to keep your weight central when squatting.


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## LALUNE (Feb 23, 2017)

Forward lean will only help to straighten the back. 
I would guess that your ankles flexibility is limiting your dorsiflex. As a result that you cannot bend a lot at knee without not letting the heels leaving the ground, then you feel off balance or standing on your toes when you squat down with a straight back.


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## BoardieK (Dec 21, 2015)

Is ankle flex important? My boots are far too stiff to allow my ankles to flex more than a tiny amount.


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## WigMar (Mar 17, 2019)

Some styles of riding require a lot of ankle flex and foot steering- like riding trees, park, or surfing powder. Stiff boots have their place too.


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## 16gkid (Dec 5, 2012)

BoardieK said:


> Is ankle flex important? My boots are far too stiff to allow my ankles to flex more than a tiny amount.


I'm with you, but I don't really ride freestyle, I like my boots locked the fuck in


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## LALUNE (Feb 23, 2017)

BoardieK said:


> Is ankle flex important? My boots are far too stiff to allow my ankles to flex more than a tiny amount.


You will know it when you need it.


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## Snowdaddy (Feb 2, 2018)

BoardieK said:


> Is ankle flex important? My boots are far too stiff to allow my ankles to flex more than a tiny amount.


I'd say it's not that important with ankle flex. When you are standing barefoot on the floor you need to be able to flex your ankles when you crouch. Otherwise you will fall over or be forced to stick your butt out. When strapped onto a board and moving the board angle is basically your ankle flex.


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## Aracan (Nov 24, 2017)

BoardieK said:


> Is ankle flex important? My boots are far too stiff to allow my ankles to flex more than a tiny amount.


What boots are those? I ride hardboots and they flex so that I had to replace one of the buckles because it got busted from contact with one of the others. I have no experience in softboots, but from how a human body works I would say this: In order to drive a powerful toeside, you need to get your knee down. I don't know how you would do that without ankle flex.


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## lbs123 (Jan 24, 2017)

As you get low you should feel pressure of your shins against the front of your boots, esp. on toe side turn. If you don't feel the pressure, you're probably leaning forward and sticking the butt out, the shins could actually move backward in such case.


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## BoardieK (Dec 21, 2015)

My boots are 32 Focus Boa, brand new so not broken in at all. And yes, push down witk the knees and the shin does all the work.


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## WigMar (Mar 17, 2019)

Bending over at the waist is the worst, and makes you look like a total noob. You're gonna fall so much more than you need to until you learn how to stack your weight over the edges properly. Once you've got that stacked stance, you're not a noob anymore. 

Check out this stance video. Creepy Basement Video


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## LALUNE (Feb 23, 2017)

BoardieK said:


> My boots are 32 Focus Boa, brand new so not broken in at all. And yes, push down witk the knees and the shin does all the work.


Not all the work, just certain type of the work. 
Pushing down knee and shin with ankle fixed will put one on toe edge, that's correct.
Pushing down knee and shin with ankle relaxed or even tilted a bit will allow one to ride much lower with straight back without having to be on toe edge, benefits being better bump absorption, more room to pop/ollie, better posture for landing a jump and etc. This is why it's easier to land slightly on toe edge than on heel edge.


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## muzzyahoy (Nov 19, 2016)

A good trick I was taught years ago when you feel like you are bending at the waist too much is to ride holding your belt buckle, or what would be your belt buckle, with both hands. This is near-on impossible to do if you are bending at the waist, and as you build up more speed or feel like you are losing control, forces you to bend your knees and lower your center of gravity to maintain edge control and in turn your balance and speed. I normally will do this drill for at least half of my first warm up run of the day to refocus where I want my riding stance to be for the rest of my day


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## Rip154 (Sep 23, 2017)

muzzyahoy said:


> A good trick I was taught years ago when you feel like you are bending at the waist too much is to ride holding your belt buckle, or what would be your belt buckle, with both hands. This is near-on impossible to do if you are bending at the waist, and as you build up more speed or feel like you are losing control, forces you to bend your knees and lower your center of gravity to maintain edge control and in turn your balance and speed. I normally will do this drill for at least half of my first warm up run of the day to refocus where I want my riding stance to be for the rest of my day


Now I'm just picturing herds with giant belt buckles, Stetson and chaps in full falling leaf style.


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## jrec87 (Jan 18, 2019)

saw a kid with ripped skinny jeans over thermals on the hill last week. he was so edgy, made me regret my choice to wear my bib.


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## MCrides (Feb 25, 2019)

WigMar said:


> Bending over at the waist is the worst, and makes you look like a total noob. You're gonna fall so much more than you need to until you learn how to stack your weight over the edges properly. Once you've got that stacked stance, you're not a noob anymore.


I agree with you wholeheartedly if we're talking about toeside carves--the more forward your hips are, the more weight you have directly over the edge. If we're talking heelside carves, I think bending forward has its place. It's not a substitute for bending at the knees, but if you're squatting low _and_ bending forward at the waist, you're going to have more weight stacked vertically over your heel edge.


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## WigMar (Mar 17, 2019)

Squatting your butt to the highbacks is where the power is, not with that butt in the air and your head down by your toes.


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## MCrides (Feb 25, 2019)

WigMar said:


> Squatting your butt to the highbacks is where the power is, not with that butt in the air and your head down by your toes.


I don’t disagree. I’m saying that _after_ your butt is down by your high backs, you can stack more weight vertically by bending forward at the hips. You don’t have to stick your butt up to do that.


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## Kevington (Feb 8, 2018)

muzzyahoy said:


> A good trick I was taught years ago when you feel like you are bending at the waist too much is to ride holding your belt buckle, or what would be your belt buckle, with both hands. This is near-on impossible to do if you are bending at the waist, and as you build up more speed or feel like you are losing control, forces you to bend your knees and lower your center of gravity to maintain edge control and in turn your balance and speed. I normally will do this drill for at least half of my first warm up run of the day to refocus where I want my riding stance to be for the rest of my day


I have a buddy who was very very good (sponsored by Rome) and is still very good just less reckless and he often cruises or sideslips waiting to drop with with his hands clasped in front of him. Now I know why! Always though he looked like a disapproving school teacher or somebody at church. Needless to say, his posture and form are really good.


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## poser (Mar 7, 2018)

MCrides said:


> I don’t disagree. I’m saying that _after_ your butt is down by your high backs, you can stack more weight vertically by bending forward at the hips. You don’t have to stick your butt up to do that.


While agree that bending at the waist excessively as a short cut for getting low is bad form, I do think that sitting back in the hips before breaking at the knees is better form since you are loading the hips, Glutes and hamstrings vs just the quads. When you break at the knees and maintain a vertical or nearly vertical back, you are relying predominately on the quads. Since the glutes are the largest muscles group in the body and since “hanging your weight” on the hamstrings reduces the toil on the quads, this makes the most sense to me, but it doesn’t quite look like the “cereal box”, vertical method that is often described as perfect snowboarding form.


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## MCrides (Feb 25, 2019)

Yeah, I think a lot of the "cereal box" advice is for new snowboarders. It's really good advice but there are a million exceptions as you get more advanced. Like, you might spend a lot of time teaching a beginner to stop counter rotating, but there are reasons they'd go back to doing it intentionally later on.


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## wrathfuldeity (Oct 5, 2007)

muzzyahoy said:


> A good trick I was taught years ago when you feel like you are bending at the waist too much is to ride holding your belt buckle, or what would be your belt buckle, with both hands. This is near-on impossible to do if you are bending at the waist, and as you build up more speed or feel like you are losing control, forces you to bend your knees and lower your center of gravity to maintain edge control and in turn your balance and speed. I normally will do this drill for at least half of my first warm up run of the day to refocus where I want my riding stance to be for the rest of my day


Really great tip! Super efficient, stable and great form in the cereal box. Made it super simple to rail the board up on its edges No flying appendages while mach'n around. This past Saturday was doing it while bombing 50+mph, cruising, moguls and chop...it was actually kind of relaxing. It was probably the best form I evar had. Thanks!!!


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## Bob F (Feb 8, 2020)

ChadL said:


> Same issue over here. When people say, 'get low' i end up looking like a closing suit case rather than bending at the knees. When i try to bend at the knees more i'm way off balance. Have you discovered any specific stretches that helped? thanks to this thread I'll be adding Good mornings and squats.


Crank the back of your bindings to lean your boots toward toeside so your knees are vertically aligned with your board edge. Then, "getting low" really works, and it makes it way easier to set the heelside edge well withour sticking your butt way out to heelside..


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## Bob F (Feb 8, 2020)

BoardieK said:


> Is ankle flex important? My boots are far too stiff to allow my ankles to flex more than a tiny amount.


Just adjust the backs of the bindings to push your boot tops forward.


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## MCrides (Feb 25, 2019)

ChadL said:


> Same issue over here. When people say, 'get low' i end up looking like a closing suit case rather than bending at the knees. When i try to bend at the knees more i'm way off balance. Have you discovered any specific stretches that helped? thanks to this thread I'll be adding Good mornings and squats.


You might also try widening your stance.


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## poser (Mar 7, 2018)

Bob F said:


> Just adjust the backs of the bindings to push your boot tops forward.


IMO, this is bad advice as it is a technique short cut. Take the time to learn proper technique mechanics.


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## Bob F (Feb 8, 2020)

poser said:


> IMO, this is bad advice as it is a technique short cut. Take the time to learn proper technique mechanics.


It sure makes riding in a proper athletic stance a lot more natural and increases range of motion a lot, especially for heelside turns. Maybe not so useful in the park, but sure helps in tight trees.






What is Forward Lean on Snowboard Bindings? - The-House


The mystery of "Forward Lean" explained and how to experiment and adjust to see what amount of forward lean is right for you.




www.the-house.com













How Much Forward Lean Should You Set On Your Snowboard Bindings


Let's look at how much forward lean you need to set on your snowboard bindings.




snomie.com


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## WigMar (Mar 17, 2019)

I used to rock forward lean, and I feel it taught me some good things. It shows you the proper attack stance, and it provides extra response and power when you aren't used to stacking your weight over the edge properly. I've come to see forward lean as a learning tool and a matter of personal choice. Personally, I match it to the lean of my boots and leave it at that. 

I really don't like forward lean in trees. Highbacks can get in my way. I've gone to the surfy side these days. Freedom of movement is king. I've gone so far as to use highbacks that are so soft I can fold them back with one hand. 

Shred your own shred. If you've never looked into forward lean, check it out and you may like it.


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## MCrides (Feb 25, 2019)

poser said:


> IMO, this is bad advice as it is a technique short cut. Take the time to learn proper technique mechanics.


What proper technique are you shortcutting with forward lean?


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## poser (Mar 7, 2018)

MCrides said:


> What proper technique are you shortcutting with forward lean?


Properly leveraging heelside turns. Forward lean in the bindings should be used as more of an adjustment for an advanced rider looking for an exact performance outcome not as a learning crutch.


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## DaveMcI (Aug 19, 2013)

Leg blasters. Google it, do em till u puke u weakling. Then u will crush with bEastly fashion! Or buy a peloton


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## poser (Mar 7, 2018)

Bob F said:


> It sure makes riding in a proper athletic stance a lot more natural and increases range of motion a lot, especially for heelside turns. Maybe not so useful in the park, but sure helps in tight trees.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I would argue that it unnaturally forces you into an athletic stance. Since the high back is forcing you into this position, it is hardly a naturally occurring position, therefore not “natural”. Any potential gain in range of motion in the bottom of a squat is lost since it decreases your range of motion at the top because you can’t relax and stand all the way up. Better to learn how to move your body into this position. 

Again, forward lean has it place for someone who is looking for a mechanical advantage to leverage their heel side, but this is not a beginner who needs to learn the fundamentals of body positioning.


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## MCrides (Feb 25, 2019)

poser said:


> Properly leveraging heelside turns. Forward lean in the bindings should be used as more of an adjustment for an advanced rider looking for an exact performance outcome not as a learning crutch.


What specific mechanics are involved in “properly leveraging” heelside turns that are circumvented by forward lean though? As far as I can tell it doesn’t take the place of anything—it just amplifies the effect of technique that’s already happening.

I mean why have high backs at all if not to add leverage?


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## poser (Mar 7, 2018)

MCrides said:


> What specific mechanics are involved in “properly leveraging” heelside turns that are circumvented by forward lean though? As far as I can tell it doesn’t take the place of anything—it just amplifies the effect of technique that’s already happening.
> 
> I mean why have high backs at all if not to add leverage?


The forward lean of high backs adds a positive mechanical advantage to positioning the weight of the body to maximize the transfer of energy into the heel edge on steep angles. It’s basic physics. One can achieve this same ends through proper body positioning and that is a fundamental aspect of snowboarding that one should learn.


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## Bob F (Feb 8, 2020)

poser said:


> The forward lean of high backs adds a positive mechanical advantage to positioning the weight of the body to maximize the transfer of energy into the heel edge on steep angles. It’s basic physics. One can achieve this same ends through proper body positioning and that is a fundamental aspect of snowboarding that one should learn.


I find that it enables me to very quickly steer the front of the board through very rapid turns like roller coaster rides through trees with very small lower body motions. It also allows my legs to absorb bumps easily even when hard on my heel edge.


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## poser (Mar 7, 2018)

Bob F said:


> I find that it enables me to very quickly steer the front of the board through very rapid turns like roller coaster rides through trees with very small lower body motions. It also allows my legs to absorb bumps easily even when hard on my heel edge.


That’s great. However, I suspect that you are using forward lean to enhance competent technique, not as a solution to overcome poor technique. 
Sports require specific skill, specific technique and sufficient strength. Skills and technique are practiced in order to improve performance. The OP needs to address his technique and strengthen his body. Perhaps further down the line, once he has become an intermediate +/advanced rider, he will find that forward lean enhances his technique as well.


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## MCrides (Feb 25, 2019)

poser said:


> The forward lean of high backs adds a positive mechanical advantage to positioning the weight of the body to maximize the transfer of energy into the heel edge on steep angles. It’s basic physics. One can achieve this same ends through proper body positioning and that is a fundamental aspect of snowboarding that one should learn.


Sorry, but I’m still not sure why this applies to forward lean, specifically, but not any of the other tools we use to snowboard. High backs exist in the first place to provide a mechanical advantage. Snowboard-specific boots exist to provide a mechanical advantage (and, I should add, have forward lean built in). Should beginners do without both?


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## JDA (Feb 10, 2016)

At a minimum its good to have the forward lean set so that there is no gap between the high back and the boot. This will give instant response otherwise you are waiting for that gap to fill to some degree when you initiate a turn.

Not saying you have to do this but just be aware of whats happening. On my park board I don't run any forward lean but I do on all my other boards.


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## Bob F (Feb 8, 2020)

JDA said:


> At a minimum its good to have the forward lean set so that there is no gap between the high back and the boot. This will give instant response otherwise you are waiting for that gap to fill to some degree when you initiate a turn.
> 
> Not saying you have to do this but just be aware of whats happening. On my park board I don't run any forward lean but I do on all my other boards.


I have lots of forward lean, and very stiff boots. This makes for very fast edge response. When I got those stiff boots, I was amazed how much better I could control the edge for carving. I need way less knee motion to get the same solid edge angle. As a 71 YO, I don't go near the boxes and rails, If I did, I might have made different choices.


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## Donutz (May 12, 2010)

Bob F said:


> I have lots of forward lean, and very stiff boots. This makes for very fast edge response. When I got those stiff boots, I was amazed how much better I could control the edge for carving. I need way less knee motion to get the same solid edge angle. As a 71 YO, I don't go near the boxes and rails, If I did, I might have made different choices.


Interestingly, I started out with stiffer boots (Thirty-Two Focus Boas) and recently moved to a somewhat softer boot.


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## WigMar (Mar 17, 2019)

I've been going back towards a softer set up for most things lately. Really, I'm into lateral flex and toe/heel response. I find forward lean restricts my lateral movement too much. I match the static lean on my boots with the highbacks. 

I found forward lean and stiff boots to be helpful when I was struggling to control my board. As I progressed, it just seemed to get in my way and be uncomfortable. I still have stiff bindings on my aggressive freeride board, but I match the highback's lean to my boots.


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## neni (Dec 24, 2012)

MCrides said:


> Sorry, but I’m still not sure why this applies to forward lean, specifically, but not any of the other tools we use to snowboard. High backs exist in the first place to provide a mechanical advantage. Snowboard-specific boots exist to provide a mechanical advantage (and, I should add, have forward lean built in). Should beginners do without both?


I think it's because if you FORCE yourself into a crouch with the highbacks, you don't have the same amount of fine tuning motion range with knee/ankle/toe adjustment as if when you would be crouched low "naturally". With the first, you are fixated to that fwd angle. Knees, ankles are forced into a certain angle. Hips n upper body have to adjust to that fixated fwd lean, too, to balance out. There's no give and take, highback is there, period. You lean into them and at that very angle they sit, you will give the pressure. 

If there's not a fixated lean OTOH, you can move your butt/legs more far behind over the edge and fine adjust the heelside tilt by lifting toes.
Leverage over heel edge via highbacks is more like the brute force in comparison.

I don't use any fwd lean as the MOW conda I use have more than enough for me at zero position.


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## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

MCrides said:


> Sorry, but I’m still not sure why this applies to forward lean, specifically, but not any of the other tools we use to snowboard. High backs exist in the first place to provide a mechanical advantage. Snowboard-specific boots exist to provide a mechanical advantage (and, I should add, have forward lean built in). Should beginners do without both?


That's because what he's saying is ridiculous. Nothing in snowboard is "natural". Natural for us is to walk, and definitely not sideways with a plank stuck to our feet, bound by stiff boots.

Forward lean certainly doesn't HINDER learning proper technique, so it can't be "wrong" to use it to learn or whenever. Essentially, you can learn proper anything with or without fwd lean.

So a powder board makes it easier to ride on powder... should you learn on a shitty park twin to "learn proper pow riding"? No.
Stiff cambered boards help develop proper technique... should riders learn park on stiff camber boards "to learn proper technique"? No.


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## poser (Mar 7, 2018)

F1EA said:


> That's because what he's saying is ridiculous. Nothing in snowboard is "natural". Natural for us is to walk, and definitely not sideways with a plank stuck to our feet, bound by stiff boots.
> 
> Forward lean certainly doesn't HINDER learning proper technique, so it can't be "wrong" to use it to learn or whenever. Essentially, you can learn proper anything with or without fwd lean.
> 
> ...


We’re not talking about powder boards. We talking about excessive forward lean vs. learning how to use your body. It’s not a forward lean issue, it a movement pattern issue. Being a dick in your response doesn’t change the fact that the OP needs to learn how to ride a snowboard with proper body mechanics. Goddamn....


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## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

poser said:


> We’re not talking about powder boards. We talking about excessive forward lean vs. learning how to use your body. It’s not a forward lean issue, it a movement pattern issue. Being a dick in your response doesn’t change the fact that the OP needs to learn how to ride a snowboard with proper body mechanics. Goddamn....


LOL oooooohhh somebody's triggered cause others don't agree with their nonsense.

OP and anybody can learn proper technique WITH or WITHOUT fwd lean. 
"excessive" is a word YOU plugged in to try and plug some sense into your nonsense. Nobody talked about excessive fwd lean until you did.


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## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

BCBoarder said:


> Consistent feedback I'm getting from more experienced riders is that I'm 'bending at the waist' , 'hunched over'. I absolutely agree with them although when I try to 'straighten up', I feel much more off-balance, even a bit uncomfortable. No doubt if I can improve my posture I can dramatically improve my general riding, carving and balance. I do ride with quite a bit of forward lean in my bindings to help with heelside carving, in case that might affect things. I try to 'sit in chair' on heelside and 'tilt pelvis' for toeside (humping motion - pardon the expression, though that's the way other's have described to me), though it's difficult to do consistently.
> 
> I'm guessing I have some tight muscles/imbalances contributing. (Dayjob at computer, hunched forward - definitely doesn't help) Anyone else experience the same?
> 
> ...


Dear snowboarder of the internet,

Check this out and listen to this guy. Specifically listen to what he says at 1:03:





And don't listen to that guy above.

Love,
F1EA
xoxo


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## MCrides (Feb 25, 2019)

poser said:


> We’re not talking about powder boards. We talking about excessive forward lean vs. learning how to use your body. It’s not a forward lean issue, it a movement pattern issue. Being a dick in your response doesn’t change the fact that the OP needs to learn how to ride a snowboard with proper body mechanics. Goddamn....


So... what specific movement pattern does forward lean interfere with learning?


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## MCrides (Feb 25, 2019)

neni said:


> I think it's because if you FORCE yourself into a crouch with the highbacks, you don't have the same amount of fine tuning motion range with knee/ankle/toe adjustment as if when you would be crouched low "naturally". With the first, you are fixated to that fwd angle. Knees, ankles are forced into a certain angle. Hips n upper body have to adjust to that fixated fwd lean, too, to balance out. There's no give and take, highback is there, period. You lean into them and at that very angle they sit, you will give the pressure.
> 
> If there's not a fixated lean OTOH, you can move your butt/legs more far behind over the edge and fine adjust the heelside tilt by lifting toes.
> Leverage over heel edge via highbacks is more like the brute force in comparison.
> ...


This is interesting. Would you say you'd even prefer a gap between the "lean" of your boots and the lean of your highbacks for more flexibility? To me it seems like that would take me out of a crouch more often than not--like, to make contact with my highbacks my knees and ankles would have to be straighter, when I want the contact to happen when they're bent.

Forward lean gives me contact in what is already my natural riding position, but I wouldn't say it forces me into it.


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## WigMar (Mar 17, 2019)

I don't even think I need highbacks with how good boots and straps have gotten. No Highback Theory- Mike RanquetIf your body mechanics are on point and you're stacking weight over the edge properly, I don't see the need for forward lean. It's just uncomfortable. I've got respect for Ryan Kanpton, but I don't agree with him here. There's more than one way to get your carve on- shred your own shred. If you like that feeling, go for it! I don't feel forward lean is the only way to ride well. 

To the OP, maybe try out some lean. It'll force you into a more proper attack position and you can learn what that feels like and what to shoot for. Experiments like this are good- they can teach you a lot.


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## Snowdaddy (Feb 2, 2018)

Without forward lean you can only bend the knees properly if you put the board on edge. Otherwise you'd have to bend at the waist as well. I think that a bit of forward lean helps out.

I suppose that if you ride with really soft boots and bindings you could do it without forward lean.


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## WigMar (Mar 17, 2019)

Snowdaddy said:


> Without forward lean you can only bend the knees properly if you put the board on edge. Otherwise you'd have to bend at the waist as well. I think that a bit of forward lean helps out.
> 
> I suppose that if you ride with really soft boots and bindings you could do it without forward lean.


I don't agree with that. Without forward lean you can bend your knees into the forward lean position or choose not to and straighten your legs. This gives more balance and stance options, and brings the ankles back into the game.

Again, I propose you don't really need highbacks at all. It all comes down to feel and personal choice. I'd rather have no highbacks than have more forward lean than my boots do.


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## Snowdaddy (Feb 2, 2018)

WigMar said:


> I don't agree with that. Without forward lean you can bend your knees into the forward lean position or choose not to and straighten your legs. This gives more balance and stance options, and brings the ankles back into the game.
> 
> Again, I propose you don't really need highbacks at all. It all comes down to feel and personal choice. I'd rather have no highbacks than have more forward lean than my boots do.


Just saying that if you bend your ankles and push your shins forward to stay balanced on top of the board you also push on your bindings. Tilting the board on edge is the same as bending your ankles. Forward lean already puts your ankles in that position without putting leverage on your board.


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## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

WigMar said:


> I don't even think I need highbacks with how good boots and straps have gotten. No Highback Theory- Mike RanquetIf your body mechanics are on point and you're stacking weight over the edge properly, I don't see the need for forward lean. It's just uncomfortable. I've got respect for Ryan Kanpton, but I don't agree with him here. There's more than one way to get your carve on- shred your own shred. If you like that feeling, go for it! I don't feel forward lean is the only way to ride well.
> 
> To the OP, maybe try out some lean. It'll force you into a more proper attack position and you can learn what that feels like and what to shoot for. Experiments like this are good- they can teach you a lot.


Yep. Now bindings have been offering no highback for a while already. So have other binding brands. Burton offers true 0 lean, and Flux has an extremely soft highback on the DS. There's also noboards for pow, like the Burton Pile Driver, Skipjack which you can ride with no bindings. Etc etc.

So yea you don't NEED fwd lean. But it certianly does not prevent you from learning anything properly.

You can still bring your highbacks flush with some fwd lean and keep flexibility and range of motion by using soft or non aggressive bindings/highbacks. 

I mostly ride medium bindings with flush fwd lean so that i always feel the flex of the binding and have no slack to the highback. On boards/days when I want power and response, i go w stiffer bindings. On days/boards when I don't, I go with softer. But mostly on the same general posture, so only the feel of the highback changes...

Somehow people like making arguments for extremes. No need to. Extreme fwd lean or no bindings/highback is an extreme situation that doesn't apply to the majority. It's a pointless talk.

The overwhelming majority of people will benefit from a normal medium flex binding with some fwd lean to help maintain proper body posture without needing to bend at the waist as a result of stiff knees. 

Bending at the waist (with stiff legs and no fwd lean) are one of the 3 tell-tale signs of the struggling beginner desperate for balance. The other 2 are a super narrow stance and extreme shallow binding angles. 

Look for it next time you go to the mtn... there's learning beginners and struggling beginners. The struggling beginners are usually doing 1 or all 3 of the above. The 4th would be all counter-rotated turns, but that's usually past the very beginning stage.


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## MCrides (Feb 25, 2019)

F1EA said:


> The 4th would be all counter-rotated turns, but that's usually past the very beginning stage.


Like 90% of snowboarders never get past this, if my view from the lift is a representative sample.

Out of curiosity, has anyone here experimented with uneven amounts of forward lean?


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## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

MCrides said:


> Out of curiosity, has anyone here experimented with uneven amounts of forward lean?


Yep. Me 
I ride with more fwd lean on the back foot. (but that's also because I ride ++ stance)


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## Snowdaddy (Feb 2, 2018)

I also ride with more forward lean on the back foot.

Edit: and +/+ stance


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## neni (Dec 24, 2012)

F1EA said:


> Yep. Me
> I ride with more fwd lean on the back foot. (but that's also because I ride ++ stance)


Funny. 
I had more lean on front foot with +/+ ?


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## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

neni said:


> Funny.
> I had more lean on front foot with +/+ ?


Hahah
I remember you had a super wide stance as well. So that was... really wide, forward stance and more lean on the front foot. Oh mein gott.


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## MCrides (Feb 25, 2019)

F1EA said:


> Yep. Me
> I ride with more fwd lean on the back foot. (but that's also because I ride ++ stance)


Weird, I was thinking the other way around might be nice.


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## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

MCrides said:


> Weird, I was thinking the other way around might be nice.


Depends on your stance angles I think. My natural 'attack' stance already has more lean on the rear, even when I had a mild duck stance and when i did longboarding. On a longboard, you can change your 'stance' so I could see that more fwd = speed, stability, flow and power through turns. While duck or less fwd was better for 'freestyle' and sliding because that's what I moved my feet to when doing different stuff.... so I carried that over I guess.

This is all with ++ stance:

__
http://instagr.am/p/BNe_Ny4DsPL/


__
http://instagr.am/p/yyuXlBGUxK/

In the end, I tried different stances and settled with what felt better overall and with compromises here and there. I can still ride different stances, and it's still ok. It's not that it's unrideable.

I kinda thought about and evolved my stance from this:


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## neni (Dec 24, 2012)

F1EA said:


> Hahah
> I remember you had a super wide stance as well. So that was... really wide, forward stance and more lean on the front foot. Oh mein gott.


Lol, you made me insecure, but checking an old pic, I see that memory is correct: more lean on front. But that doesn't mean that it's a good thing, lol. I was a terrible rider in those days, board riding me instead the other way around ?.

Actually, with +/+ back in the day, I had a more narrow stance, only 55cm (at 58.5cm with duck now)

Oh wait... maybe that was it what made fwd feel so off? Did I mount those +/+ at 58.5 or 55...? ?
I may give it another try, next time using a tape measure


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## chomps1211 (Mar 30, 2011)

MCrides said:


> Like 90% of snowboarders never get past this, if my view from the lift is a representative sample.
> 
> Out of curiosity, has anyone here experimented with uneven amounts of forward lean?


I generally like a lot of fwd lean in my bindings. I ride with a little less fwd lean on my rear than my front foot.

Full disclosure,... Im old, I'm no park rider and after 7 - 30+ day seasons, I'm probably categorized as a "_Begintermediate_" level.

(...been riding for 9 years but missed 2 seasons for medical reasons.)


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## Rip154 (Sep 23, 2017)

F1EA said:


> I kinda thought about and evolved my stance from this:


Close call with the glove there:s


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## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

neni said:


> Lol, you made me insecure, but checking an old pic, I see that memory is correct: more lean on front. But that doesn't mean that it's a good thing, lol. I was a terrible rider in those days, board riding me instead the other way around ?.
> 
> Actually, with +/+ back in the day, I had a more narrow stance, only 55cm (at 58.5cm with duck now)
> 
> ...


Ahhhhhh ok ok, so that really wide stance is with duck. Makes a bit more sense now. 

And yeah if you go with a fwd at that width, it's going to feel very strange. I'm narrower on fwd stance but not by that much... maybe because I never rode a super wide stance. 56cm on ++ and used to be 58cm on duck and I'm 5'11".


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## MCrides (Feb 25, 2019)

F1EA said:


> Depends on your stance angles I think. My natural 'attack' stance already has more lean on the rear, even when I had a mild duck stance and when i did longboarding. On a longboard, you can change your 'stance' so I could see that more fwd = speed, stability, flow and power through turns. While duck or less fwd was better for 'freestyle' and sliding because that's what I moved my feet to when doing different stuff.... so I carried that over I guess.
> 
> This is all with ++ stance:
> 
> ...


Jfc. Can’t believe those guys wear tee shirts.


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## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

MCrides said:


> Jfc. Can’t believe those guys wear tee shirts.


Also a close call w the car there... yikes.

But yeah pretty gnarly. Race guys wear full leathers:


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## Kevington (Feb 8, 2018)

I found that where my bindings are positioned relative to the edges makes a difference to how straight I can keep my torso. I used to always prefer to have more heel overhang than toe if there was a choice, it immediately feels more natural. After moving the bindings more towards the toe edge so they were centred, then later so they were even a little more to the toe edge, I found a significant improvement in body positioning. 

I was leaning forward at the waist to make up for my centre of gravity and point of leverage on the board being over towards my heels. Changing this to the centre or even a bit towards the toes means I can be more upright while in a neutral cruising position and more low and powerful through turns. 

In fact, by moving it towards the toes you kind of have no choice but to ride with better positioning as you will just go into an off-balance toeside turn if you bend forward. As far as putting pressure on my edges goes, I'm using the balls of my feet and my heels, not my toes. In terms of centreing the foot between the edges, the toes are an irrelevance other than for drag problems.


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## wrathfuldeity (Oct 5, 2007)

F1EA said:


> In the end, I tried different stances and settled with what felt better overall and with compromises here and there. I can still ride different stances, and it's still ok. It's not that it's unrideable.
> 
> I kinda thought about and evolved my stance from this:


Damm, that is sicko retarded


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## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

Another really good tutorial video which discusses the straight legs/bent waist posture (starting around 2:20) problem from a more instructive point of view than Ryan's:


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## neni (Dec 24, 2012)

MCrides said:


> This is interesting. Would you say you'd even prefer a gap between the "lean" of your boots and the lean of your highbacks for more flexibility? To me it seems like that would take me out of a crouch more often than not--like, to make contact with my highbacks my knees and ankles would have to be straighter, when I want the contact to happen when they're bent.
> 
> Forward lean gives me contact in what is already my natural riding position, but I wouldn't say it forces me into it.


Just checked and the zero lean of the NOW conda actually is already quite fwd and matches the lean of my 32 TM2 XLT perfectly; there's no gap. Both, the inbuilt lean in boot and binding match my natural comfy riding position perfectly.


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## Kijima (Mar 3, 2019)

The snowboarder that talks about boards being quick edge to edge will enjoy forward lean.
He rocks his lower body from side to side. Giving no time to his turns, yeah its quick edge to edge he claims as he procedes almost in a straight line down the hill.

Its bad form, he usually has his jacket open as he rides, I see him daily.

The snowboarder who gives time to his turns does not talk about quick edge to edge for he spends time on this edge, then time on that one.
The time it takes to flip edges is irrelevant.
To this snowboarder forward lean becomes irrelevant, next on his list of unnecessary things are stiff boots and stiff boards.


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## Kijima (Mar 3, 2019)

As for stretches, start by assessing your normal stance as a human. 
Many of us have nerd neck and our butts poking out before we even strap in. 
Hips forward like a little boy doing a pee is the cure, it is also a toe turn friendly position to be in.
Knees together. Hips forward for toe turns. 
Knees apart, sit on the toilet for heel turns.


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## Bob F (Feb 8, 2020)

Kijima said:


> The snowboarder that talks about boards being quick edge to edge will enjoy forward lean.
> He rocks his lower body from side to side. Giving no time to his turns, yeah its quick edge to edge he claims as he procedes almost in a straight line down the hill.
> 
> Its bad form, he usually has his jacket open as he rides, I see him daily.
> ...


The time it takes to flip edge to edge is critical in tight trees or for controlling speed in narrow steeps. It is a different way of riding than cruising carves on the groomers.


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## Bob F (Feb 8, 2020)

Kijima said:


> As for stretches, start by assessing your normal stance as a human.
> Many of us have nerd neck and our butts poking out before we even strap in.
> Hips forward like a little boy doing a pee is the cure, it is also a toe turn friendly position to be in.
> Knees together. Hips forward for toe turns.
> Knees apart, sit on the toilet for heel turns.


For anyone trying to lock in toe edge carves, starting a carve and then arching your back strongly can be quite a revelation. Knees together will make the board handle more like a soft rockered board, for easier turns in soft snow, while pushing the knees apart will effectively increase the camber, for increased edge hold on hard snow or ice.


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## Scalpelman (Dec 5, 2017)

F1EA said:


> Depends on your stance angles I think. My natural 'attack' stance already has more lean on the rear, even when I had a mild duck stance and when i did longboarding. On a longboard, you can change your 'stance' so I could see that more fwd = speed, stability, flow and power through turns. While duck or less fwd was better for 'freestyle' and sliding because that's what I moved my feet to when doing different stuff.... so I carried that over I guess.
> 
> This is all with ++ stance:
> 
> ...


So those maniacs are jumping all over their boards with varying stances. What is your end compromise? I rock forward stance on all my boards. Do you vary the stance by what type of riding you’ll be doing? I tend to find myself “always bombing”. Just wondering if it is a product of my personality or stance. [emoji848]


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## LALUNE (Feb 23, 2017)

Kijima said:


> The snowboarder that talks about boards being quick edge to edge will enjoy forward lean.
> He rocks his lower body from side to side. Giving no time to his turns, yeah its quick edge to edge he claims as he procedes almost in a straight line down the hill.
> 
> Its bad form, he usually has his jacket open as he rides, I see him daily.
> ...


Quick edge to edge is very important. There's far more than open groomed runs a mountain can offer.
But forward lean/stiff boots/stiff boards are irrelevant though.



Kijima said:


> As for stretches, start by assessing your normal stance as a human.
> Many of us have nerd neck and our butts poking out before we even strap in.
> Hips forward like a little boy doing a pee is the cure, it is also a toe turn friendly position to be in.
> Knees together. Hips forward for toe turns.
> Knees apart, sit on the toilet for heel turns.


Hips forward/sitting on the toilet is just one way of doing turns that use your upper body (imo less effective way because cog will be outside of your board and it will be tricky on hard snow). Check the way Japanese riders carve and how they contract their body and put a lot pressure on edge without moving their cog too far outside of the board.


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## Kijima (Mar 3, 2019)

It is not me looking for instruction


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## Bob F (Feb 8, 2020)

Aracan said:


> What boots are those? I ride hardboots and they flex so that I had to replace one of the buckles because it got busted from contact with one of the others. I have no experience in softboots, but from how a human body works I would say this: In order to drive a powerful toeside, you need to get your knee down. I don't know how you would do that without ankle flex.


For me, the whole point of stiff boots is so I don't need to bend my knees nearly as far to engage the toe edge firmly, which gives much stronger response. When I got my first pair of stiff boots, it made a huge difference in carving.


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## Hugo Boss (Mar 17, 2020)

Barbell squats will help you


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## Donutz (May 12, 2010)

Bob F said:


> For me, the whole point of stiff boots is so I don't need to bend my knees nearly as far to engage the toe edge firmly, which gives much stronger response. When I got my first pair of stiff boots, it made a huge difference in carving.


I've found that proper body position on toesides makes a lot more difference. It was like lightning striking when the instructor managed to get me to do it right (humping the air). I use a softer boot nowadays, because I can.


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