# Intermediate board - Never Summer PTT / Jones Mountain Twin



## poverty (Apr 14, 2017)

Just finished my first season and was able to get a lot of lessons and trips out to Whistler and Lake Louise for some mileage. I would say I'm a strong intermediate, learning to carve, linking turns down blues isn't much of a problem and I'm going down blacks if the conditions are right (no moguls or skiied out deep snow). I'm practicing trees and glades as much as I can and I love being in there. I rarely ride switch but I'm practicing as much as I can on greens and I haven't touched the park.

I'm 5'7" 160lbs and currently purchased without doing homework the following setup Burton Ripcord (Flat Rocker) 154", Burton Custom Bidings, and Burton Ruler boots. I want to progress from resort to get into Heliboarding just once next season. I'd like to try backcountry and off-piste but also have something that can handle hard pack resort boarding since locally I'm in Ontario. I know that one board won't do all of the above as well as something specialized but I'm hoping it will be significantly better than on my current Ripcord. In order or priority:

Going through the trees
Ride nice in Powder
Something stable with a bit of speed (~35mph), not planning on high speed charging
Can handle Hard Pack
Some small jumps and tricks on flats and Natural Elements

I've narrowed it down to the Jones Mountain Twin and the Never Summer Prototype Two. I'm open to any other suggestions. I was thinking the Mountain Twin since it's still Rocker in the Tips and Tail but I'm also open to learning to ride a Hybrid Cam. 

Anyways what an amazing sport and I can't believe it took me this long to try it, I'm hooked!


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## dave785 (Jan 21, 2016)

You want a Yes PYL. Better float than the jones mountain twin. Not as good at jibbing, slightly longer turning radius but still good in the trees. 

It's not a "pure" freeride board like it's labeled, but it's probably the most freeride oriented board available that doesn't make any big sacrifices at the resort.

There's no reason to even consider the T2 for what you're listing.


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## zc1 (Feb 20, 2017)

I'd suggest something directional, set back, Rocker-camber-rocker, +/- taper.

From Jones: Explorer (rather than Mountain Twin)
From Never Summer: West or Snowtrooper (rather than PTT)


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## dave785 (Jan 21, 2016)

zc1 said:


> I'd suggest something directional, set back, Rocker-camber-rocker, +/- taper.
> 
> From Jones: Explorer (rather than Mountain Twin)
> From Never Summer: West or Snowtrooper (rather than PTT)


The explorer, west, and snowtrooper all lack taper.

RCR boards with taper and good edge hold, and a "free ride" aim would be boards like the Jones Flagship, Lago open road, Rossi XV and Yes PYL

Of those, the Yes PYL is probably the most beginner friendly and has enough flex to be kinda forgiving in the jump line. Although I haven't ridden the open road so I can't comment on that one.


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## zc1 (Feb 20, 2017)

I was suggesting more appropriate boards from the two brands that the OP mentioned (NS and Jones). Every board will be a compromise in some way. The PYL is a great board and is one of two on my 'to buy' list for next season. However, I don't necessarily think of it as a board for someone who has just finished his first season of riding and describes his level as _"learning to carve"_ and goes on to say that _"linking turns down blues isn't much of a problem"_.


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## Phedder (Sep 13, 2014)

zc1 said:


> I was suggesting more appropriate boards from the two brands that the OP mentioned (NS and Jones). Every board will be a compromise in some way. The PYL is a great board and is one of two on my 'to buy' list for next season. However, I don't necessarily think of it as a board for someone who has just finished his first season of riding and describes his level as _"learning to carve"_ and goes on to say that _"linking turns down blues isn't much of a problem"_.


Ditto that. Don't try to run before you can walk, etc etc. 

Replace the Proto with the West, and you can't go wrong with either option really. Using your criteria;

Going through the trees - *West*
Ride nice in Powder - *West* by a smidge. 
Something stable with a bit of speed (~35mph) - *Mountain Twin*
Can handle Hard Pack - *Mountain Twin*
Some small jumps and tricks on flats and Natural Elements - *West*

But they'll both do all of the above well. I'd also look at the Yes Typo, Salomon Assassin, and Endeavor Live.


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## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

Do you want rocker between the feet and camber in the tips or do you want camber between the feet and rocker in the tips? Two totally different camber profiles with two totally different riding feels. Agreed on The West > the PTT. Unless you're riding a TON of switch, go with something with a little setback IMO. But, there are plenty of people who ride true twins and ride very little switch. If it works for you it works for you.

Both are great boards. If I had to pick one board to do everything, it would probably either be a NS The West (CRC) or a Capita Mercury (RCR). If you twisted my arm, I'd probably pick The West.


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## Thewral (Feb 13, 2017)

What about the NS Maverix? 

Probably better than the West in pow with the taper, and still able to carve plenty well on groomers. Directional, so less suited for riding switch. CRC profile.


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## CauseNAffect (Feb 1, 2016)

I have the Ns PTT. For what you're describing it sounds perfect. It has awesome float, you can land / ride switch, you can carve it up decently hard, and trick off whatever you so please. It's not a very poppy board, but the CRC profile gives it so much edge to edge snap while maintaining edge hold that tree runs are super fun. I love this board in the trees, it might be the strongest area for this board. Every factor you've mentioned works on this board, and have 0 clue why people may be steering you away from it after having been on it for 2 seasons now. It's almost TOO easy to ride (and very fun), but I'm now looking for a more aggressive board so I can charge. 

Going through the trees *Fantastically*
Ride nice in Powder *Very good pow experiences on it*
Something stable with a bit of speed (~35mph), not planning on high speed charging *YES, but extreme charging gets squirrely with a CRC profile for me.*
Can handle Hard Pack *Absolutely*
Some small jumps and tricks on flats and Natural Elements *All day long*

The Jones Explorer is softer and would be a better choice for your style than the mountain twin. Yes PYL would be a board you would have to grow into 100% and won't be as forgiving as a TT, and the West is also a good board. a Burton Custom would also be a decent choice for getting something you can play around on.


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## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

CauseNAffect said:


> I have the Ns PTT. For what you're describing it sounds perfect. It has awesome float, you can land / ride switch, you can carve it up decently hard, and trick off whatever you so please. It's not a very poppy board, but the CRC profile gives it so much edge to edge snap while maintaining edge hold that tree runs are super fun. I love this board in the trees, it might be the strongest area for this board. Every factor you've mentioned works on this board, *and have 0 clue why people may be steering you away from it* after having been on it for 2 seasons now. It's almost TOO easy to ride (and very fun), but I'm now looking for a more aggressive board so I can charge.
> 
> Going through the trees *Fantastically*
> Ride nice in Powder *Very good pow experiences on it*
> ...


Because it's a true twin. Very few riders are best suited on a true twin as their one board quiver. With that said, some people do prefer the ride of a true twin even if they don't ride much switch. To each their own.


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## kriegs13 (Nov 28, 2016)

I love my TT, but still wouldn't say its the best choice for OP. Even if he does end up wanting to do a little bit of switch and dabble in the park, it doesn't sound like thats the focus. Something like the West will do all the things he prefers better than the TT and still be usable for some switch and freestyle action if/when desired. 

Now, if OP is saying that theres a goal to progress further in that dept next year while continuing to progress at the other "all mountain" stuff that he likes, then the TT would be a viable option.

TL;DR: Directional twin will do the things OP prefers better and can still ride switch just fine. Cheers


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## neni (Dec 24, 2012)

dave785 said:


> RCR boards with taper and good edge hold, and a "free ride" aim would be boards like the Jones Flagship, Lago open road, Rossi XV and Yes PYL


Huh...? Do you _know_ those boards at all you're happily recommending?


OP, ignore this guy's post. A Flagship would be a very bad fit for you. He obviously haven't ridden the deck. 
Reading is not riding...


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## SGboarder (Jun 24, 2012)

neni said:


> dave785 said:
> 
> 
> > RCR boards with taper and good edge hold, and a "free ride" aim would be boards like the Jones Flagship, Lago open road, Rossi XV and Yes PYL
> ...


Agreed, the blind trying to lead the blind...


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## SnowDragon (Apr 23, 2012)

Phedder said:


> I'd also look at the Yes Typo, Salomon Assassin, and Endeavor Live.


+1 on the Endeavor Live.
Terrific one board quiver.:smile:


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## zc1 (Feb 20, 2017)

zc1 said:


> I'd suggest something directional, set back, Rocker-camber-rocker, +/- taper.
> 
> From Jones: Explorer (rather than Mountain Twin)
> From Never Summer: West or Snowtrooper (rather than PTT)


My previous post was confusing. Even with the edit it was poorly written. Long day.

First of all, I wanted to give a general suggestion: look for a board that is directional, set back, RCR and +/- taper.

Secondly, I wanted to suggest what I felt to be more suitable boards from the brands that you mentioned in your post (not necessarily meeting all of the criteria). My assumption was that that's what is available where you live/shop and therefore most relevant, or that those are just your preferred brands. 

Hopefully that makes more sense. Either way, I'll stop there.


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## dave785 (Jan 21, 2016)

neni said:


> Huh...? Do you _know_ those boards at all you're happily recommending?
> 
> 
> OP, ignore this guy's post. A Flagship would be a very bad fit for you. He obviously haven't ridden the deck.
> Reading is not riding...


Reading comprehension!!!

1. I was not recommending those boards. I was saying that they are RCR boards with taper and edge tech in response to the commenter above me, who mistakenly said that the explorer was jones tapered, freeride deck (it isn't... the flagship is)
2. Yes I have ridden a flagship.. demoed a 2017 for two days at whistler... pic attached... and shame on you for making me have to find it in my iPhone photo album :facepalm1::facepalm1::facepalm1:
3. it was not a hard board to ride. It was even less catchy than the Yes PYL (which I have also ridden....) I don't know why everyone thinks the flag is an "expert" boosts. It's stiff, and not very damp, but not hard to ride. It's just a boring board that goes efficiently from top of the mountain to bottom with no playfulness and makes you feel every bump the whole way. 


Regardless, the OP said he wants to do a helicopter trip on this board. It is blowing my mind that people are telling him to do a heli trip with a Proto T2. I feel like I'm surrounded by people taking crazy pills and drinking koolaid.

Edit: OP, everyone in this thread is treating you like a child. They are giving recommendations based on what they perceive your skill level to be rather than what you said you wanted. If you want a board that will actually do what you listed in your post, grab a yes PYL, or hell, even a jones flagship. Some people think that this would be "too much" board for you and that you'd hurt yourself... but both of these boards are actually quite forgiving compared to full camber boards. Are they "too fast" for you? I don't know. I don't know that that's really even a problem since they're both stable as hell. If it is a problem, maybe try not waxing the board... but anyway, I'd never take the jones flagship into the park or even the beginner jump line if I wanted to use my knees again, but you said in your post that you don't care about that. The flag has a long turning radius though so maybe be careful in the trees lol. 

If you were to write your post again and keep everything the same other than saying that you've been boarding for four years then you'd be getting very different recommendation. Which frankly is bullshit since most RCR boards are very beginner friendly.


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## SGboarder (Jun 24, 2012)

dave785 said:


> Reading comprehension!!!
> 
> 1. I was not recommending those boards. I was saying that they are RCR boards with taper and edge tech in response to the commenter above me, who mistakenly said that the explorer was jones tapered, freeride deck (it isn't... the flagship is)
> 2. Yes I have ridden a flagship.. demoed a 2017 for two days at whistler... pic attached... and shame on you for making me have to find it in my iPhone photo album :facepalm1::facepalm1::facepalm1:
> ...


Definitely the blind leading the blind!


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## Thewral (Feb 13, 2017)

Can folks explain why they disagree with his posts? He's taken the time to explain his position and it'd probably help OP to learn rather than just saying "blind leading the blind". 

I'm curious too


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## zc1 (Feb 20, 2017)

dave785 said:


> Reading comprehension!!!
> 
> 1. I was not recommending those boards. I was saying that they are RCR boards with taper and edge tech in response to the commenter above me, who mistakenly said that the explorer was jones tapered, freeride deck (it isn't... the flagship is)...
> 
> They are giving recommendations based on what they perceive your skill level to be rather than what you said you wanted. .


I didn't say they were tapered. Please re-read.

Secondly, he did give some information about his skill level, and that is what I based my comments on. Linking turns down blue runs should be a given as opposed to "not much of a problem," in my opinion, for a strong intermediate. Same for carving. Again, opinion. We all have them, and that's what he asked for.


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## neni (Dec 24, 2012)

Thewral said:


> Can folks explain why they disagree with his posts? He's taken the time to explain his position and it'd probably help OP to learn rather than just saying "blind leading the blind".
> 
> I'm curious too


Ok... let me try...



dave785 said:


> Reading comprehension!!!
> 
> 1. I was not recommending those boards. I was saying that they are RCR boards with taper and edge tech in response to the commenter above me, who mistakenly said that the explorer was jones tapered, freeride deck (it isn't... the flagship is)


since there was no quote, this was not obvious to me. Half my bad . However, I'll continue since it may also have been not obvious to OP and he may have understood your post as well as an actual recommendation.



dave785 said:


> 2. Yes I have ridden a flagship.. demoed a 2017 for two days at whistler... pic attached... and shame on you for making me have to find it in my iPhone photo album :facepalm1::facepalm1::facepalm1:


This is good. What I don't understand is that even tho you felt yourself - and also mention it your post - that it's hard on the knees, no playfulness, nothing for trees, you still recommend it further down... 



dave785 said:


> 3. it was not a hard board to ride. It was even less catchy than the Yes PYL (which I have also ridden....) I don't know why everyone thinks the flag is an "expert" boosts. It's stiff, and not very damp, but not hard to ride. It's just a boring board that goes efficiently from top of the mountain to bottom with no playfulness and makes you feel every bump the whole way.


You give the answer yourself... it's stiff, not very damp. Who wants such a board? Someone who likes to straight line top to bottom with highs speed carves in-between. So who is this usually? An intermediate? No. 

You make a classical an apple is a fruit but not all fruits are apples confusion here . Sure, an intermediate can slide down a mtn on a Flag. It's a board. You strap into it and slide. 
But he won't enjoy it. Because - exactly as you experienced as well - it's stiff and not very damp and has a long radius. Furthermore, it's torsionally stiff. It doesn't turn easy at slow speed. It's pure pita in moguls. It's unyielding. 



dave785 said:


> Regardless, the OP said he wants to do a helicopter trip on this board. It is blowing my mind that people are telling him to do a heli trip with a Proto T2. I feel like I'm surrounded by people taking crazy pills and drinking koolaid.


The word "helicopter" seems to trigger a certain picture in your head which leads you to assume that only a certain type of board would work. But that's your picture. A heli trip can be in a region with trees and flat-ish pitch. Not every heli is AK . And even if it is in AK, this doesn't mean that the rider will go into gnarly big mtn terrain. e.g. a proto can make a hell lot of sense on a heli trip. If the heli trip is held in proto terrain. You would first need to know the terrain of the said future heli trip. _Then_ you can begin to blow your mind if the recommendations don't fit that terrain.



dave785 said:


> Edit: OP, everyone in this thread is treating you like a child. They are giving recommendations based on what they perceive your skill level to be rather than what you said you wanted. If you want a board that will actually do what you listed in your post, grab a yes PYL, or hell, even a jones flagship


No. Everyone in this thread is concentrating on the _priorities_ OP listed. You disrespect this foremost priority and concentrate on the nice-to-have-maybe-someday-in-the-future trait mixed in with assumptions on this future trait.
Read OPs first entry in his priority list. Trees. And you continue to mention a Flag... about the worst deck you can take into the trees. 



dave785 said:


> Some people think that this would be "too much" board for you and that you'd hurt yourself... but both of these boards are actually quite forgiving compared to full camber boards. Are they "too fast" for you? I don't know.


This so incoherent. No board is "too fast". They all have edges, so they all just go as fast as you want them. "Too much" board has nothing to do with "hurt yourself". You refer to catchiness I assume (because you compare it to full camber afterwards and mentioned that it's not catchy further up). Well, of course a Flag is not catchy. It has so much rocker in tip n tail, you really need to try hard to force it to catch an edge. 
However, not catching and edge is still a loooong stretch away from being able to _ride_ a deck. Catchy or not, that's not what makes a board "too much". The "too much" derives from the characteristics of a board where one needs a certain degree of technique to get the most out of it, and vice versa if you don't have the degree you end up solely suffering from the disadvantages without getting the advantages. Flag is a great example for such a board. Volkl Coal is another good example. 




dave785 said:


> I don't know that that's really even a problem since they're both stable as hell. If it is a problem, maybe try not waxing the board... but anyway, I'd never take the jones flagship into the park or even the beginner jump line if I wanted to use my knees again, but you said in your post that you don't care about that. The flag has a long turning radius though so maybe be careful in the trees lol. If you were to write your post again and keep everything the same other than saying that you've been boarding for four years then you'd be getting very different recommendation. Which frankly is bullshit since most RCR boards are very beginner friendly.


Nope. With priority on trees, my reaction would be the same. If someone wants to buy 1 board, you concentrate on the main priorities and not on the nice-to-have-maybe-someday add-ons.


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## boisell (Feb 14, 2016)

poverty said:


> Just finished my first season and was able to get a lot of lessons and trips out to Whistler and Lake Louise for some mileage. I would say I'm a strong intermediate, learning to carve, linking turns down blues isn't much of a problem and I'm going down blacks if the conditions are right (no moguls or skiied out deep snow). I'm practicing trees and glades as much as I can and I love being in there. I rarely ride switch but I'm practicing as much as I can on greens and I haven't touched the park.
> 
> I'm 5'7" 160lbs and currently purchased without doing homework the following setup Burton Ripcord (Flat Rocker) 154", Burton Custom Bidings, and Burton Ruler boots. I want to progress from resort to get into Heliboarding just once next season. I'd like to try backcountry and off-piste but also have something that can handle hard pack resort boarding since locally I'm in Ontario. I know that one board won't do all of the above as well as something specialized but I'm hoping it will be significantly better than on my current Ripcord. In order or priority:
> 
> ...


This has turned into quite the educational discussion. It's always tempting to buy a cheap board in the off season, but personally I think you should demo those boards or at the very least, a CRC board and an RCR board before buying as they feel quite different under your feet. You could also buy a couple of used boards (e.g. that Jones board I pm'd you about) and test them out that way. It sounds to me like you're still doing quite a bit of learning and from someone who is about 2 years away from where you are now, I would highly recommend demoing in some way before buying new. As for the helicopter trip, sounds like a BHAG of yours so good luck. If you go, I'd take Neni's advice and make sure you have the right board for the right trip.


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## dave785 (Jan 21, 2016)

neni said:


> Ok... let me try...
> 
> since there was no quote, this was not obvious to me. Half my bad . However, I'll continue since it may also have been not obvious to OP and he may have understood your post as well as an actual recommendation.


Yes there was a quote  there was even an intro sentence that you edited out of quoting me in your assault  .. neni your attack was so mean that you got our resident aspergers patient SG boarder to agree with you!



neni said:


> This is good. What I don't understand is that even tho you felt yourself - and also mention it your post - that it's hard on the knees, no playfulness, nothing for trees, you still recommend it further down...
> 
> 
> You give the answer yourself... it's stiff, not very damp. Who wants such a board? Someone who likes to straight line top to bottom with highs speed carves in-between. So who is this usually? An intermediate? No.


Agree to disagree. Advanced riders will go into the trees / park / chutes. Intermediates straightline down groomers. Especially considering that the OP was looking for a board that was stable at speed...



neni said:


> You make a classical an apple is a fruit but not all fruits are apples confusion here . Sure, an intermediate can slide down a mtn on a Flag. It's a board. You strap into it and slide.
> But he won't enjoy it. Because - exactly as you experienced as well - it's stiff and not very damp and has a long radius. Furthermore, it's torsionally stiff. It doesn't turn easy at slow speed. It's pure pita in moguls. It's unyielding.


Have you tried the 2017 with the spoon tech (lifted contact points)? The lift actually made it really easy to kick and swivel around in tight situations. But yeah... it isn't a damp board. But OP didn't mention dampness in his board preferences. He also said he wasn't going to go on moguls anytime soon.




neni said:


> The word "helicopter" seems to trigger a certain picture in your head which leads you to assume that only a certain type of board would work. But that's your picture. A heli trip can be in a region with trees and flat-ish pitch. Not every heli is AK . And even if it is in AK, this doesn't mean that the rider will go into gnarly big mtn terrain. e.g. a proto can make a hell lot of sense on a heli trip. If the heli trip is held in proto terrain. You would first need to know the terrain of the said future heli trip. _Then_ you can begin to blow your mind if the recommendations don't fit that terrain.


That's fair. I definitely have preconceived notions about this. 



neni said:


> No. Everyone in this thread is concentrating on the _priorities_ OP listed. You disrespect this foremost priority and concentrate on the nice-to-have-maybe-someday-in-the-future trait mixed in with assumptions on this future trait.
> Read OPs first entry in his priority list. Trees. And you continue to mention a Flag... about the worst deck you can take into the trees.


I guess it depends on the type of trees and the conditions of the snow. Rutted out, icy snow in the trees would be terrible on a flag. Nice powder lines in the trees would be nice on a flag - especially the new one with spoon. 



neni said:


> This so incoherent. No board is "too fast". They all have edges, so they all just go as fast as you want them. "Too much" board has nothing to do with "hurt yourself". You refer to catchiness I assume (because you compare it to full camber afterwards and mentioned that it's not catchy further up). Well, of course a Flag is not catchy. It has so much rocker in tip n tail, you really need to try hard to force it to catch an edge.
> However, not catching and edge is still a loooong stretch away from being able to _ride_ a deck. Catchy or not, that's not what makes a board "too much". The "too much" derives from the characteristics of a board where one needs a certain degree of technique to get the most out of it, and vice versa if you don't have the degree you end up solely suffering from the disadvantages without getting the advantages. Flag is a great example for such a board. Volkl Coal is another good example.
> 
> 
> ...


Fair enough. I've been in a bad mood lately lol.

Trees
Powder
Stable at speed
Edgehold on hardpack

So what would you recommend? Jones hovercraft and NS Swift?


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## poverty (Apr 14, 2017)

*Incredible*

First off, I appreciate all of the input! It really helps me narrow things down. I completely get the responses since metaphorically speaking it was if I asked on a car forum what was the best sports car. There's a lot of personal preference involved. I think I'm on the right track now and I'm narrowing it down to a Jones Explorer or Mountain Twin and a NS West. I really do need to head out and see what the difference between a CRC and RCR feels like. 

For the Heliskiing, no, I'm not looking at AK or any Steeps. Basically I want to cruise around on some fresh pow through trees and get a taste of that sweet sweet isolation from the world. I'd be looking for something in BC and asking for tours that have a fore and aft guide so I don't feel pressured on going down too fast and something that matches my skill level.

That being said I'd really appreciate some input on what bindings I should look for with the boards that I listed above. I don't need anything hyper responsive but with good build quality. I can't stand the strap release mechanism on my Burton Customs. 

Thanks again!


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## CauseNAffect (Feb 1, 2016)

Still believe the Type 2 is your board based on what you described. Mountain twin and west good too. Youd be pleased with any of them. I would take the advice of people who have ridden the boards.


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## neni (Dec 24, 2012)

dave785 said:


> Yes there was a quote  there was even an intro sentence that you edited out of quoting me in your assault  .. neni your attack was so mean that you got our resident aspergers patient SG boarder to agree with you!


Lol, this made me laugh  
Ooops... Yeah, you're right, there was a quote, indeed, my bad. But I still got it wrong so it still is half your bad 
And I won't apologize if I came accross mean cos s.o. even halfway recommending a Flag in this context deserves a beating IMHO. But props for taking it with humor.



dave785 said:


> Agree to disagree. Advanced riders will go into the trees / park / chutes. Intermediates straightline down groomers. Especially considering that the OP was looking for a board that was stable at speed...


At _moderate_ speed! If he would have mentioned 50, I'd understand going all stiff freeride. But at what he mentioned, all mid-stiff quality all-mtn decks I have tried were stable. 



dave785 said:


> Have you tried the 2017 with the spoon tech (lifted contact points)?


Yup. The '17 was my daily 1 board quiver ride this season. It's better than the former models but it's still what it is... I've love-hate affair with the Flag since '12, roughly 200d in all thinkable terrain and conditions; all the years shaping up the same way... love-hate-love-hate... I'm currently once again evaluating additional boards cos the Flag just isn't an all day resort/off-piste board and I'm really over her unyieldingness riuning half my days on the mtn just because I'm subbornly trying to force her to be what she isn't . 

So yeah... agree to disagree :happy:. Let's end this here cos OPs newest post makes it very obvious that he's looking for something else.




dave785 said:


> Trees
> Powder
> Stable at speed
> Edgehold on hardpack
> ...


I recommend nothing cos I haven't ridden such boards. Trees are very low on my priority list so I've never looked into boards which shine there. @Nivek would be the right guy to ask. I was just here to dissuade OP from getting a Flag


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## neni (Dec 24, 2012)

poverty said:


> First off, I appreciate all of the input! It really helps me narrow things down. I completely get the responses since metaphorically speaking it was if I asked on a car forum what was the best sports car. There's a lot of personal preference involved. I think I'm on the right track now and I'm narrowing it down to a Jones Explorer or Mountain Twin and a NS West. I really do need to head out and see what the difference between a CRC and RCR feels like.
> 
> For the Heliskiing, no, I'm not looking at AK or any Steeps. Basically I want to cruise around on some fresh pow through trees and get a taste of that sweet sweet isolation from the world. I'd be looking for something in BC and asking for tours that have a fore and aft guide so I don't feel pressured on going down too fast and something that matches my skill level.
> 
> ...



Absolutely try CRC first before you buy. They have an odd feeling riding flat based which might interfere with what you feel as stability. Some love this profile, some can't get used to it (do.not.ask. which one is better :laugh: it's opening a can of worms). 
Unfortunately I don't know the boards you're asking about but it appears to me that you're heading into the right direction. @chomps1211 has an Explorer


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## dave785 (Jan 21, 2016)

If he wants tame back country and tree runs but wants pow and isolation then he either needs a board with taper or a short fatty with lifted contact points.

Margaret lumberjack comes to mind, but it isn't exactly the most stable on piste (according to the reviews I've read - I've admittedly never ridden the damn thing)

Arbor sin nombre is fast and really good in pow at speed (it keeps speed real well in pow, with the emphasis on not getting slowed down rather than floating on top even at low speeds) but if you do start going slow it sinks so I'd rule that one out. 

Maybe get a jones explorer in a wide model for some extra float? Or just go with the hovercraft with the understanding that it isn't meant to be ridden switch. 

Full disclaimer: I have ridden a jones flag and a jones mtn twin and I own a sin nombre, but I haven't ridden an explorer or a hovercraft.


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## zc1 (Feb 20, 2017)

I own a Mountain Twin and a Flagship. Because I enjoyed it, I would buy an Explorer if I came across one for the right price, but it overlaps with other boards that I have. None of that should be of any significance to you (OP), though, because snowboarding is completely subjective. The amount of disagreement in this thread is evidence of how subjective it is. Even my own preferences change over the course of a season/week/day.

I could say go and demo a bunch of boards, but not everyone has the ability/means to do so. I could say buy a used one, but that's not straightforward, either (finding, buying or selling). Regardless, you have a ton of good boards to choose from, and some very good options have been listed in this thread. To a certain extent, you can make a lot of boards work for what you want to do even if they're not exactly the 'perfect' choice.

Vague, non-commital. Sorry.


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## kriegs13 (Nov 28, 2016)

*popcorn face smash* this is effing awesome *popcorn face smash*


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## Phedder (Sep 13, 2014)

dave785 said:


> If he wants tame back country and tree runs but wants pow and isolation then he either needs a board with taper or a short fatty with lifted contact points.


Jesus Christ Dave, let's emphasize this one more time. 



poverty said:


> Just finished my first season...
> 
> *linking turns down blues isn't much of a problem *


Dude doesn't need a flag, or arguably any board with a lot of taper or a short fatty, those are more specialised boards. 

He needs something more suitable than a burton ripcord paired up with customs to ride what he's listed his priorities to be. Literally anything a bit stiffer, hybrid profile, and with some set back will be an improvement for him. No need to go all the way to the opposite end of the spectrum from what he's used to.


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## chomps1211 (Mar 30, 2011)

poverty said:


> *Just finished my first season* *...was able to get a lot of lessons and trips out to Whistler and Lake Louise for some mileage. I would say I'm a strong intermediate,..*


TBH,.. I believe _^this^_ and what follows below has created a *LOT* of confusion in this thread. 



poverty said:


> ...learning to carve, *linking turns down blues isn't much of a problem* and I'm going down blacks if the conditions are right (no moguls or skiied out deep snow). I'm practicing trees and glades as much as I can and I love being in there. I rarely ride switch but I'm practicing as much as I can on greens and I haven't touched the park.


My initial reaction upon reading this was similar to most,… I.E. :WTF: :question:

I agree with others who have posted that being able to turn confidently at speed on blues & greens should be a "given" for an Intermediate rider and that a phrase like ,... _"Linking Turns" down blues without "Much" of a problem,...??? _. Well that Sets off a ALL kinds of alarm bells especially when a NooB is asking for board advice!! :shrug:

:laugh: At the end of my first season? I was most *definitely NOT* a "strong (…or any other kind of) _intermediate_" rider. However,… I was also learning to ride on 300'-500' ft. vert anthills and NOT real mountain terrain like Whistler & Louise. Having finally made it to some "Real" mountains the last two seasons,… I am now fully aware that most of the "green," so called, beginner runs at these places are usually FAR more challenging than almost all the blues here where I ride!

Also,.. I took "A" lesson that first season as opposed to "a lot of lessons" as the OP has stated!!  So,… my experience with first season progression is probably _not_ Apples to Apples comparable to the OP's!

Having said that, @poverty,.. For a general comparison of first season Bona Fide's,… I learned to snowboard (_and_ ride switch) on a Wide, fairly stiff assed, Full Camber, Directional, Setback, Tapered, all mountain deck! I managed just fine!  :laugh:

All the above TL;DR, was written so I could tell you,….

*Do NOT get a Flagship for your second season board!!!!*

I am 6', 250lbs buck nekkid and consider myself a solid "Begintermediate" rider. I purchased a 164 FS after 5 seasons of riding and believe me when I tell you, it is one STIFF ASSED, Muther of a Barn Door on anything but steep and/or deep!!! And even on that terrain,… You better have your shit wired cuz even there it _needs_ speed and technique!!!! At slow to moderate speeds on mellower terrain it was like trying to steer while standing on a Toboggan! It's a TANK!!!! 

I returned the FS and replaced it with a 162 Explorer which was far more versatile & suitable for the resorts I ride here,.. It was also plenty "enough" board to handle the more challenging terrain and conditions I encountered on my trip out west! 

Disclaimer: I do want to be clear,… I am *not* necessarily recommending you go with the Explorer! Neither am I suggesting it wouldn't be a good board for you. What I am saying is It was definitely a better deck for me and my present experience & progression! And while I absolutely _LOVE_ that board,…? I did encounter some difficulty with it in the deep stuff and/or trees! To be completely fair tho, this was most likely due to _MY_ lack of experience in both types of terrain! :embarrased1: 

Since I am still a little confused about where you land Experience/Progression Wise after just one season? I am not going to make any specific recommendations. I'll wait and see what follows in this thread and wait to see if you clarify your present riding abilities somewhat! >

….Lastly!! :blink:


poverty said:


> *...I want to progress from resort to get into Heliboarding just once next season. I'd like to try backcountry and off-piste…..*
> 
> Anyways what an amazing sport and I can't believe it took me this long to try it, I'm hooked!


Altho this stated "Goal" is probably responsible for much of the extremes in opinions regarding what you may or may not require in a new ride,..? I'm actually FAR more concerned that *nobody* has yet commented on the need for you to look into getting some serious BC/Avy training and equipment before taking on such a trip!!! 

I personally have neither and I am years away from even considering giving that a try!! So I am definitely NOT up to snuff on what Is/Isn't required from various BC/Heli guided operations in the way of required training & equipment before taking a client,.. especially a NooB client,.. out in the BC!!! 

Something to consider & definitely research before you think about a trip like that!!!


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## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

Cool thread


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## Bataleon85 (Apr 29, 2017)

zc1 said:


> I'd suggest something directional, set back, Rocker-camber-rocker, +/- taper.
> 
> From Jones: Explorer (rather than Mountain Twin)
> From Never Summer: West or Snowtrooper (rather than PTT)


I have the NS Snowtrooper and it's a badass all mountain. By far the closest to true all mountain dominance I've owned. Carves and holds an edge great on even the most challenging terrain but it's flexible enough to jib and press. I love the thing when I'm just looking to fuck around and hit everything. 

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## ctoma (Aug 9, 2011)

chomps1211 said:


> I am 6', 250lbs buck nekkid and...


Dammit... bad mental image, erase that bad mental image...


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## chomps1211 (Mar 30, 2011)

ctoma said:


> Dammit... bad mental image, erase that bad mental image...


:lol:
Here ya go...











Your other alternatives are,... bleach your eyes or just... "Go With It!!!" :laugh:

>


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## ctoma (Aug 9, 2011)

This is me:


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## poverty (Apr 14, 2017)

*Nail on the head*



chomps1211 said:


> TBH,.. I believe _^this^_ and what follows below has created a *LOT* of confusion in this thread.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Wow, you really nailed it Internet stranger! Going through this thread there was a lot of valuable opinions but your comments really resonate with how I feel about my current state. So to be clear I'm not making a personal assessment of my abilities as the be end all. Obviously it's difficult to judge since skill level isn't really standardized. I made my statement based on both Whistler and Louise's learning centre skill assessment for their lessons. This is also confirmed by the groups that I'm placed in at their full day lessons. Based on Whistler's site my abilities mirror the assessment videos as a Level 4/5 which would be the high end of their Intermediate skill level. 

Concretely the Flagship was not on my list. Could I figure out it? Probably, but I recognize that making a jump to equipment that requires too much precise technique could hinder and or plateau my current learning curve. All that said I have a destination in mind for progression but I'm also not in a rush to get anywhere. I'm just having too much fun.

To clarify I originally stated that I make it down blues without much of an issue. A lot of people picked up on this so I'll elaborate more. If the conditions are right for what I've practiced most on (groomers) I line up really well with the videos. However the challenges were that through this season I was subjected to different weather conditions and snow conditions which I have never encountered before which is why I had an inflection that blues aren't mastered. I hate moguls and hard and icy skiied out conditions but anyway I digress. 

When I first purchased the Burton Ripcord I had no idea if I was going to stay with the sport, what I enjoyed, and even what to look for. Now that I have had a taste of varying conditions and situations I have a better idea and want to find equipment that is more tailored towards my priority list. I get it and I'm sure it's been asked many times by a beginner if they should get a carbon flagship or something very specifically purpose built but I didn't approach it that way at all. Actually I was just assessing the internet barometer with a flame suit ready and fully prepared to be told to just stay with the Ripcord longer. I wouldn't even be opposed to that suggestion either. I'm just a variety is the spice of life type guy and had an upgrade itch and I'm 100% positive I'm not alone in here.

100% agree, Heli might be ambitious. I'm just going by some brochures that I picked up and they said they would take intermediates that are comfortable on blues that may or may not have ever ridden in powder. The company would supply all of the avi gear as well. If it's something that I like I fully intend on taking the AST 1 training and get kitted out. 

So the plan is to upgrade and be prepared for the upcoming season, focus more on increasing my fitness level (after Whistler 4 days straight my legs are pretty gassed), additional lessons locally and out west to put milage on a new board. Hopefully with a lot of luck and hard work where I feel confident enough, I'd like to close out the 2017 season with a Heli or Cat trip. Again to reiterate my search criteria for this tour is strictly introduction, mild back country through trees and glades. I'm not interested at all with charging down steeps and chutes. All of this is contingent on my daughter being able to keep up or surpass me with her lessons and ability level since the heli trips won't be a solo endeavour. 

As they say a goal without a plan is just a wish! Worse case next season I'll just stay a Jerry and rip up some greens with a GoPro and you'll see a nice barely used board up on BST.


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## poverty (Apr 14, 2017)

Phedder said:


> Jesus Christ Dave, let's emphasize this one more time.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Which is why I was kind of leaning towards the Jones Explorer or Mountain Twin since they are rockers at the tail and tips? Am I on the right track? Also I'm trying to understand when dampness is an attribute. I have a rough intuition as to what it means but could someone chime in and confirm. Are we talking about a Porsche with racing coil overs vs an old 80s cutlass? 

What would you conditions would help someone perform better with more or less dampness?


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## dave785 (Jan 21, 2016)

poverty said:


> Which is why I was kind of leaning towards the Jones Explorer or Mountain Twin since they are rockers at the tail and tips? Am I on the right track? Also I'm trying to understand when dampness is an attribute. I have a rough intuition as to what it means but could someone chime in and confirm. Are we talking about a Porsche with racing coil overs vs an old 80s cutlass?


Yes, that is a pretty good metaphor. I'd go with porche racing coils vs a jeep wrangler with a plush suspension to convey that damp boards aren't bad... 

Think about how tracked out and rutted a groomed run is at 3:00PM. If your board is too stiff / not damp, it's like driving on a gravel road with a sport tuned suspension. That (and moguls and jumps) is when you and your knees really begin to appreciate dampness. 

The blue runs at whistler that get moguled out are harder than the black diamond runs at most US resorts. I wouldn't let your perceived skill level force you into buying a board that you've already outgrown. You shouldn't get a flagship for a lot of reasons, but your skill level isn't one of them. 

For what it's worth, 2016 was my first season on a snowboard (I'm a converted skier). I think it's a lot easier to learn snowboarding now then it was 10 years ago, in large part because of the new board technology. It frustrates me when Veterans tell new boarders that boards are "too much board" for beginners... that might've been true 15 years ago, but it isn't anymore. The veterans didn't learn on these boards - they learned in much trickier boards and they incorrectly assume that other people will face the same difficulties they faced. Now it's more about finding the most suitable board for the environment. 

Another board you might consider is an arbor iguchi pro camber. i own its little brother the Sin Nombre. You can find the iguchi pro camber used all over the place. It has enough flex to be an all mountain board, but enough taper to get you through the trees and powder more easily than the explorer.


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## Bataleon85 (Apr 29, 2017)

dave785 said:


> Yes, that is a pretty good metaphor. I'd go with porche racing coils vs a jeep wrangler with a plush suspension to convey that damp boards aren't bad...
> 
> Think about how tracked out and rutted a groomed run is at 3:00PM. If your board is too stiff / not damp, it's like driving on a gravel road with a sport tuned suspension. That (and moguls and jumps) is when you and your knees really begin to appreciate dampness.
> 
> ...


I agree. I learned back when all you had was camber and maybe if you were lucky, a few resorts had Burton LTR flying Vs for rent. These kids nowadays have so much technology and tweaked out hybrids that it's nerfed the learning curve. I mean that's progression of the sport and it's definitely opened up a whole new world of riding but yeah. I think today's beginners could learn on just about anything since yesteryear's noobs had to learn the hard way. 

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## kriegs13 (Nov 28, 2016)

dave785 said:


> It frustrates me when people tell them that boards are "too much board" for beginners... that might've been true 15 years ago, but it isn't anymore. Now it's more about finding the most suitable board for the environment.
> 
> 
> 
> Another board you might consider is an arbor iguchi pro camber. i own its little brother the Sin Nombre. You can find the iguchi pro camber used all over the place. It has enough flex to be an all mountain board, but enough taper to get you through the trees and powder more easily than the explorer.



You mostly had me until the first paragraph that I quoted. Technology or not, boards can still most definitely be too much board for a beginner/situation. 

This next part may have no basis in reality. But between board specs and amateur user reviews, I have a feeling the reason the iguchi camber is so available used is because it didn't live up to what it should have been. I'm not saying that it's a bad board (I haven't been on one). But I constantly read/hear "too narrow" and "not enough of what it's supposed to be to make a good case for itself" it could be the dream board for OP but then why not any of arbors other camber twins? It sounds like he's a sufficient regular rider looking to expand his horizons and lean what he loves so I would think a tried and true camber (or hybrid cause I mean what the fuck) directional twin. PYL, west, snow trooper, tons of others, etc etc etc. 



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## Bataleon85 (Apr 29, 2017)

The Snowtrooper is still my favorite all around board ?... I usually can be found on my Bataleon Disaster though, unless I'm charging down real steep shit that needs something stiffer to turn quick. In which case my NS kills at carving and quick, precise turns. 

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## kriegs13 (Nov 28, 2016)

Bataleon85 said:


> The Snowtrooper is still my favorite all around board ... I usually can be found on my Bataleon Disaster though, unless I'm charging down real steep shit that needs something stiffer to turn quick. In which case my NS kills at carving and quick, precise turns.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G935T using Tapatalk




Haven't been on a trooper but own a TT and slinger. Love them both. Can only imagine the trooper trumps them both at carving. Either way, pick your brand and they will have an option for quality all mountain twin board that can do most of what you want until you get to the point where you want to build a specialized quiver. 

I don't care if it's Burton, NS, ski company, or the steeziest (spelling?) local core company run by the rescued vet dogs of retired snowboard professionals turned artisan carpenter turned barista.... get an all mountain directional twin of quality build with a profile that you like and then put it on snow with your feet attached to it then slide down the hill, have fun, repeat 


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## Bataleon85 (Apr 29, 2017)

Whirred. I hate hybrid boards for tricks though. They don't have enough pop. I prefer my Bataleon for jibbing, pressing, tripods etc

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## kriegs13 (Nov 28, 2016)

Bataleon85 said:


> Whirred. I hate hybrid boards for tricks though. They don't have enough pop. I prefer my Bataleon for jibbing, pressing, tripods etc
> 
> Sent from my SM-G935T using Tapatalk




Haha yeah... I forgot to mention that the rant part was directed at the OP and all the argument. 

I hear you on that. To each their own. I learned on camber and rode it most of my snowboarding life. Went crc last year and enjoyed it after a many year hiatus. But I completely understand why folks don't dig it compared to other profile. 

Never been on a bataleon but wouldn't mind trying it. Never tried any of the lifted contact stuff. Sounds neat though. Maybe I'll have a weird day in the future where I get a bataleon and finally try Nows and forget how to snowboard altogether. 


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## Bataleon85 (Apr 29, 2017)

It's a game changer for sure. I can send the thing off the tiniest knuckles and side hits with so much less effort than anything else I've ridden and I can ride it as lazy or aggressive as I want. It's also nice for building speed off kickers without edging too much. 

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## Bataleon85 (Apr 29, 2017)

BTW wouldn't recommend Nows on a TBT board haha... They carve OK enough but the way Nows ride, you'd probably need to put way more effort into turning. Stopping and holding still for sure. That's my one gripe with TBT is it's a lot of legwork to keep it still mid run. 

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## kriegs13 (Nov 28, 2016)

Bataleon85 said:


> BTW wouldn't recommend Nows on a TBT board haha... They carve OK enough but the way Nows ride, you'd probably need to put way more effort into turning. Stopping and holding still for sure. That's my one gripe with TBT is it's a lot of legwork to keep it still mid run.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G935T using Tapatalk




Haha yeah. Definite joke. From my limited knowledge of skate tech; lifted contact would negate the extra driving force coming from the leveraged bushing. But I also just cook things for a living so me no know too much about that stuff. 


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## Bataleon85 (Apr 29, 2017)

It would be fun to try for sure, just imagine it'd be a total shitshow trying to ride for real lol

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## kriegs13 (Nov 28, 2016)

Bataleon85 said:


> It would be fun to try for sure, just imagine it'd be a total shitshow trying to ride for real lol
> 
> Sent from my SM-G935T using Tapatalk




I'm picturing myself linking zero turns. Just flatbase spinning down the entire time. Maybe get frisky and switch direction. 


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## Bataleon85 (Apr 29, 2017)

I do that anyway. Flat spins, 360 sidehits and tripods the whole way down haha... Like I said, the Bat is beautiful for true freestylin'

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## SGboarder (Jun 24, 2012)

dave785 said:


> I wouldn't let your perceived skill level force you into buying a board that you've already outgrown.


Almost nobody is going to ‘outgrow’ a quality deck from a mainstream manufacturer for many, many years. That includes the Burton Ripcord – in fact, some of the Burton pro’s/team riders use it regularly.



dave785 said:


> For what it's worth, 2016 was my first season on a snowboard (I'm a converted skier). I think it's a lot easier to learn snowboarding now then it was 10 years ago, in large part because of the new board technology. It frustrates me when Veterans tell new boarders that boards are "too much board" for beginners... that might've been true 15 years ago, but it isn't anymore. The veterans didn't learn on these boards - they learned in much trickier boards and they incorrectly assume that other people will face the same difficulties they faced.


There is really not much new technology in snowboards in the last 10 years. And even less that makes a meaningful difference to beginners.



dave785 said:


> Now it's more about finding the most suitable board for the environment.


That I agree with, but most your recommendations make little sense. As does your obsession with pushing him towards a tapered board (which he does not need).



dave785 said:


> Another board you might consider is an arbor iguchi pro camber. i own its little brother the Sin Nombre. You can find the iguchi pro camber used all over the place. It has enough flex to be an all mountain board, but enough taper to get you through the trees and powder more easily than the explorer.


That is probably the first somewhat sensible recommendation to the OP from you (in part because the Iguchi has almost no taper).


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## SGboarder (Jun 24, 2012)

Bataleon85 said:


> I agree. I learned back when all you had was camber and maybe if you were lucky, a few resorts had Burton LTR flying Vs for rent. These kids nowadays have so much technology and tweaked out hybrids that it's nerfed the learning curve. I mean that's progression of the sport and it's definitely opened up a whole new world of riding but yeah. I think today's beginners could learn on just about anything since yesteryear's noobs had to learn the hard way.


Erm, you are aware that rocker and hybrid camber profiles have been around for a good 20 years?



Bataleon85 said:


> BTW wouldn't recommend Nows on a TBT board haha... They carve OK enough but the way Nows ride, you'd probably need to put way more effort into turning. Stopping and holding still for sure. That's my one gripe with TBT is it's a lot of legwork to keep it still mid run.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G935T using Tapatalk





Bataleon85 said:


> It would be fun to try for sure, just imagine it'd be a total shitshow trying to ride for real lol
> 
> Sent from my SM-G935T using Tapatalk


Now bindings work perfectly well TBT boards. I rode Drives on a North for a while and it was a good combo.


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## SGboarder (Jun 24, 2012)

kriegs13 said:


> Either way, pick your brand and they will have an option for quality all mountain twin board that can do most of what you want until you get to the point where you want to build a specialized quiver.
> 
> I don't care if it's Burton, NS, ski company, or the steeziest (spelling?) local core company run by the rescued vet dogs of retired snowboard professionals turned artisan carpenter turned barista.... get an all mountain directional twin of quality build with a profile that you like and then put it on snow with your feet attached to it then slide down the hill, have fun, repeat
> 
> ...


^ that +1000


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## Bataleon85 (Apr 29, 2017)

Yeah. I'm also 32 and been riding since I was 8. Your point? 

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## Bataleon85 (Apr 29, 2017)

SGboarder said:


> Erm, you are aware that rocker and hybrid camber profiles have been around for a good 20 years?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


All right, Nows work on TBT. I don't believe I said they wouldn't. Merely pointed out it might be a sloppy ride for some people. TBT boards are a
different flavor for sure and take a little getting used to. It's also worth noting the different boards in their lineup have varying amounts of TBT. Some are more extreme than others. The Disaster has almost its entire effective edge off the snow so it's pretty slippery until you get the feel for it. That was all I was saying, in not so many words. 

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## neni (Dec 24, 2012)

chomps1211 said:


> Altho this stated "Goal" is probably responsible for much of the extremes in opinions regarding what you may or may not require in a new ride,..? I'm actually FAR more concerned that *nobody* has yet commented on the need for you to look into getting some serious BC/Avy training and equipment before taking on such a trip!!!
> 
> I personally have neither and I am years away from even considering giving that a try!! So I am definitely NOT up to snuff on what Is/Isn't required from various BC/Heli guided operations in the way of required training & equipment before taking a client,.. especially a NooB client,.. out in the BC!!!


You'd be astonished how many ppl at the AK heli lodge we go to have zero BC experience/avi knowledge. It's not a necessity. They stay in suitable terrain accordingly. It's always funny to see the guides reactions after the groups have been asigned.... "dang... beginner crew... mellow pitch open glacier runs all week..." (and with beginner I mean solid intermediate level with experience to ride deep pow but new to bc). There are crews of elderly skiers every year who never go into "gnarly" terrain. They're just enjoying the huge AK landscape, the being there, the adventure of the chopper rides, and are totally happy to ride untouched pow in low angle wide open runs with no technical demand other than know how to ride deep snow. Heli is not heli. It _depends_


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