# Never Summer's...what's the story??



## grafta (Dec 21, 2009)

This forum has a MASSIVE bias towards Neversummer. There are some members who will steer people towards everything else though, which is nice.

I'm almost embarrassed that I ride NS... seems like such a cliche. I'm waiting for someone to ask if i'm on sbf.com just cos i've got an evo.

Not baggin em, but i'd like to try something else when i get the chance


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## airblaster503 (Dec 24, 2012)

The longer you lurk the more you will learn that this forum is like a Never Summer circle jerk. Apparently a few of the members on here are friends with a NS rep who is also on here and are always testing their boards. I would never buy one and their boards never seem to change, same boring ass graphics every year.


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## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

I just think the snowboard hipsters are funny. 99% of the NS "hate" I see is just because other people like them. Plenty of other good boards out there, ride one of them.


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## Mseitz20 (Jan 25, 2013)

Before when I was using a Rome board, I didn't understand the hype of a Never Summer either. My local shop gave me a great deal on a Revolver and the moment I strapped into my Revolver I understood every bit of hype, the perfect combination of flex and response is amazing. The east got a 21 inch dump back in December, and I went out not expecting much out of a park board but the float I had in powder was something else. There was no problem staying up and the board destroys everything from ice to powder to the parks. My only recommendation is to try one before you buy one, a couple of my friends have tried it and they either love the board or hate it.


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## Varza (Jan 6, 2013)

airblaster503 said:


> I would never buy one and their boards never seem to change, same boring ass graphics every year.


The graphics may not change much, but maybe the tech does :dunno: Graphics are no reason to avoid a certain board or board company. I get the impression NS makes really good quality boards (ok, I know they're overhyped on this forum). They're a bit too pricey for me at this point, but I actually LIKE their graphics. So there


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## Ocho (Mar 13, 2011)

Bauba said:


> I hate to even ask the question, because I don't want to offend anyone...or accuse anyone of anything. But, there is a TON of talk around here about how awesome Never Summer boards are. It also seems that some of the members around here are pretty hooked in with NS. So, my question is this....are they really that great or are there a lot of people around here getting hooked up by NS or a combination of both??


Can't answer your questions but NS is like the iPhone of boards.





Let's just say I have an Android.


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## RichnNorcal (Dec 5, 2011)

I give big respects a smaller American company like NS, even though I've never ridden one of their boards. I have a friend who works for Flow, he used to work for Ride, until they downsized and moved stuff to China. Similar to what K2 did, in order to survive in the ski biz. By the way, he has his own 10k lbs. Press. surprising what one can make with their own hands...


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## seant46 (Dec 8, 2009)

I have stuck with it because Im a broke fucking kid. They seem to be pretty durable from my experience and I like the hybrid camber profile. Now excuse me, fap fap fap!


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## binarypie (Nov 29, 2009)

I've actually owned a never summer. I liked it well enough.

Right now my favorite board is probably the Jones Carbon Flagship.


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## Triple8Sol (Nov 24, 2008)

I bought my first NS board 4yrs ago after a recommendation from a friend. They've all been so sick so I've owned so many since then, but at the same time I've also owned 20+ Bataleons/Lib/Gnus/Arbor/Ride/K2/Nitro boards during the same period of time. They've become very popular on SBF for good reason, and I think it's a great thing. I'm starting to see a few more on the hill but still pretty few and far between, and much more rare than Burton, Lib/Gnu, Capita, etc... around here. What some of you haters need to realize that this forum represents a small percentage of the snowboarding community as a whole, and so when people on here find great products, they end up sharing that insight. Local shops like SnoCon & Evo only started carrying NS in their stores a year or two ago, only started carrying Bataleon like 3yrs ago, etc...


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## john doe (Nov 6, 2009)

There is a lot of NS love on this forum but there is also very little hating on other brands. There is no fanboy hate like you find with the Android/Iphone or Playstation/Xbox. The fact is that recommending a NS is damn near idiot proof. It may not be the best board but every board they make is damn good and worth the money.


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## seriouscat (Jan 23, 2012)

I think it is a serendipity of the general age of the user group here and the NS target segment. I get the sense that the posters are older than some of the other forums out there. So then let's review:

1. They hit a market segment that seems to be ignored (older dedicated riders with regular jobs who are perhaps less "rad") The graphics imo are hit and miss. I personally love their big mountain graphics and 2012 raptor/ 2013 infinity. However they are all very understated, which matches the segment well.

2. While they don't have crazy top end prices, the avg price of the line is up there. Not likely to be purchased by kids/casual riders. 

3. More of a boutique brand, especially in Canada. Check mark on the image factor. Compounded by point #2 above. This is independent of the product of itself, but would be something that this market segment would be willing to spend extra money on. 

4. It actually is pretty damp ride (older crowd/maybe bad knees) and durable (I rammed my raptor into a big ass rock and nothing happened beside some edge sharpening.) All qualities that would cement it in the minds of the target segment.

5. RC shape and vario works good in big mountain conditions. A lot of users here are from out west or take big mountain trips.

6. Carbonium is "cool" (see point 2&3)

Combine all of these with actual rep representation and you got a perfect storm of fanboism. :yahoo:


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## CK93 (Dec 9, 2012)

I was actually getting ready to buy a Never Summer until I went to a demo they had at Keystone. I loved the idea of supporting a local company. Two things changed my mind. The first guy I dealt with was really cool. He took the time to explain their boards to me and got me set up for a demo. When I came back from a few runs, it totally changed. The people there were ignorant A$$holes. They acted like they were above everybody else. They were treating other people who where there like dirt. Rolling eyes, ignoring and treating them like there were stupid. It really turned me off to how they could be acting like that. 

The second reason is a shirt one of the guys was wearing. All of the employees were wearing a NS shirt except one. He was wearing a shirt that was religion bashing. Now I have no issues with people wearing any shirt, but wear it where it is appropriate. While he was there, he is acting as an ambassador to the company. That tells me that the company condones that type of views because he was representing Never Summer. 

I tried to contact NS to talk to them about my experience--I got the runaround and no results. If a company is going to treat potential customers like dirt, I will not support them. When people ask me about a good board company they should look into, I tell them about the people at NS and everyone of them have ended up not buying a NS. I continue to share my experience and find more people agree than not.

There are plenty of companies that make great boards, so it comes down to how well they treat other people and customers. At this point, I will never buy a NS solely on the ethics of their company.

My opinion anyway :huh:


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## Karpediem (Aug 29, 2007)

CK93 said:


> I was actually getting ready to buy a Never Summer until I went to a demo they had at Keystone. I loved the idea of supporting a local company. Two things changed my mind. The first guy I dealt with was really cool. He took the time to explain their boards to me and got me set up for a demo. When I came back from a a few runs, it totally changed. The people there were ignorant A$$holes. They acted like they were above everybody else. They were treating other people who where there like dirt. Rolling eyes, ignoring and treating them like there were stupid. It really turned me off to how they could be acting like that.
> 
> The second reason is a shirt one of the guys was wearing. All of the employees were wearing a NS shirt except one. He was wearing a shirt that was religion bashing. Now I have no issues with people wearing any shirt, but wear it where it is appropriate. While he was there, he is acting as an ambassador to the company. That tells me that the company condones that type of views because he was representing Never Summer.
> 
> ...


So what company did you go with and why? Just curious if you interacted with reps from that company and how it went.


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## CK93 (Dec 9, 2012)

Karpediem said:


> So what company did you go with and why? Just curious if you interacted with reps from that company and how it went.


Well I ended up going with a Burton and Lib Tech. I have never met any reps from those companies. I went to Christy Sports and was treated Excellent there. So I ended up buying 2 boards from them. I like to support people and companies that have not lost "Customer Service" If the reps for Lib Tech and Burton are royal pains, I hope I never meet them LOL. I bought the Burton and Lib Tech based on research and recommendation of the sales guy that helped me, I trust his recommendations. But again, Christy Sports treats me great and I continue to spent my hard earned cash there.


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## JasonFox (Mar 29, 2011)

I think you raise a right point here, sometime to much NS . But I own several NS boards. I think I went through a lot of stuff before stop at this branch. I had Burton, Lib Tech, Gnu, K2, Plamer .

Don't like NS graphic, but their stuff is dead right just like people review here. 
Their quality is top notch, haven't found anything close to them except high-end Burton board. The price is pretty decent for compare with other . All of that may explain why there are too much NS. Still looking for something different ..., but for now I stuck with it.


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## Leo (Nov 24, 2009)

I don't understand some of you guys. A brand makes it big and saturates the market and you guys complain they aren't core or are too much of a big business. Yes, I'm talking about Burton.

Then you complain about the small guys not being more popular. 

And now you're complaining about a small American brand becoming popular on an Internet forum? 

You guys just can't be pleased can you? 

Here's my personal background on my stance with NS. I worked for a retailer for the past 3 years. I have access to a ton of boards. I have demoed more than I can count. I get discounts on all of these boards. I get rewards at work which I can use to get free boards. Yet, I now mainly ride NS. Not because I get boards from them (like I stated, I can get boards easily from most major brands), but because I like their product and business model too.

I've been anti-hype on other products like the Skate Banana and Union bindings. It's really not about that. I got curious about NS boards and was offered to test them out. After doing so, I understood why they are so popular. Very solid boards and easily competes with the big name brands out there. I honestly like their RC better than others.

They aren't perfect, no one is... but you can't knock them for making quality snowboards. If you don't like it, then don't ride it. It's silly to sit there and talk other people out of buying an NS just because it's "hyped" around here. It's silly to turn people away with reasons like "their graphics suck." 

How about some actual feedback on the qualities you dislike about the performance of their boards? Because you know what? That "rep" you mentioned as well as testers on here will read your critique. And that critique just might cause NS to change up their tech.

They've already changed their graphics countless times because of feedback from this very forum. I mean come on, they created an entirely new board based mostly on Snowolf's feedback on the Heritage.

What company will come into a small Internet forum to do that?


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## Extremo (Nov 6, 2008)

Brands get hyped because they're the shit, that's the bottom line so get use to it. NS has their shit together and they're getting hyped for a reason. You think they're hyped now? Wait until next years boards hit the market. Their tech is getting better every year. 



Leo said:


> I've been anti-hype on other products like the Skate Banana and Union bindings.


It's funny you say that because Union went through the same thing you're seeing with Never Summer now (I agree the skate banana rides like a $10 whore). I got on Unions 6 years ago and hyped the shit out of them because they're solid. Within 2 years BA and Nivek make it their personal Jihad to take the brand down. NS better be ready for the same shit. 

In my experience with NS so far...pretty legit.


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## RJRJRJ (Feb 12, 2012)

CK93 said:


> I was actually getting ready to buy a Never Summer until I went to a demo they had at Keystone. I loved the idea of supporting a local company. Two things changed my mind. The first guy I dealt with was really cool. He took the time to explain their boards to me and got me set up for a demo. When I came back from a few runs, it totally changed. The people there were ignorant A$$holes. They acted like they were above everybody else. They were treating other people who where there like dirt. Rolling eyes, ignoring and treating them like there were stupid. It really turned me off to how they could be acting like that.
> 
> The second reason is a shirt one of the guys was wearing. All of the employees were wearing a NS shirt except one. He was wearing a shirt that was religion bashing. Now I have no issues with people wearing any shirt, but wear it where it is appropriate. While he was there, he is acting as an ambassador to the company. That tells me that the company condones that type of views because he was representing Never Summer.
> 
> ...





CK93 said:


> Well I ended up going with a Burton and Lib Tech. I have never met any reps from those companies. I went to Christy Sports and was treated Excellent there. So I ended up buying 2 boards from them. I like to support people and companies that have not lost "Customer Service" If the reps for Lib Tech and Burton are royal pains, I hope I never meet them LOL. I bought the Burton and Lib Tech based on research and recommendation of the sales guy that helped me, I trust his recommendations. But again, Christy Sports treats me great and I continue to spent my hard earned cash there.


Isnt Mervin's logo a pentagram with a goat-headed satan? LOL


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## CK93 (Dec 9, 2012)

RJRJRJ said:


> Isnt Lib's logo a pentagram with a goat-headed satan? LOL


Pretty sure its a banana! haha :blink:


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## Leo (Nov 24, 2009)

Extremo said:


> Brands get hyped because they're the shit, that's the bottom line so get fucking use to it. NS has their shit together and they're getting hyped for a reason. You think they're hyped now? Wait until next years boards hit the market. Their tech is getting insane.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Lol yea you and I used to debate Unions in those Flow threads. Ah the good oL days.

Anyway, I'm not hardcore on the Union or Skate Banana hate. I gave my opinion and that was that. 

Critiques are useful. It's this anti-anything popular attitude that is weird.


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## CK93 (Dec 9, 2012)

RJRJRJ said:


> Isnt Mervin's logo a pentagram with a goat-headed satan? LOL


What does that have to do with the way a company treats it customers? :icon_scratch:


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## sabatoa (Jan 18, 2011)

CK93 said:


> What does that have to do with the way a company treats it customers? :icon_scratch:


Because you listed one of the reasons you didn't go with NS was the dude with the anti-religious shirt...


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## double (Dec 9, 2011)

*News?*



Snowolf said:


> e.
> 
> There is news coming shortly that will no doubt cause some butt hurt among some and excite others. To that end, all I can say is to stay tuned for an announcement around the 8'th of February.


Any hints on the news??? Thanks!


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## CK93 (Dec 9, 2012)

sabatoa said:


> Because you listed one of the reasons you didn't go with NS was the dude with the anti-religious shirt...


Read what I wrote. When you are representing your company, I feel that was inappropriate. If I saw the NS rep at a bar one night wearing the same shirt, I wouldn't think twice about. But when you are doing your job representing your company, everything you do, say and wear is a direct reflection on the company. What you do on your own time is up to you. 

If I was in the Army, on the job while working wearing a shirt like that, the Army wouldn't put up with it cause of the image it would bring to the army. But if the Army guy was wearing that shirt off duty at a bar---who cares?

Get it?


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## BurtonAvenger (Aug 14, 2007)

Simple answer you give some key people free stuff and suddenly everyone starts to jump on the train.


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## sabatoa (Jan 18, 2011)

CK93 said:


> Read what I wrote. When you are representing your company, I feel that was inappropriate. If I saw the NS rep at a bar one night wearing the same shirt, I wouldn't think twice about. But when you are doing your job representing your company, everything you do, say and wear is a direct reflection on the company. What you do on your own time is up to you.
> 
> If I was in the Army, on the job while working wearing a shirt like that, the Army wouldn't put up with it cause of the image it would bring to the army. But if the Army guy was wearing that shirt off duty at a bar---who cares?
> 
> *Get it?*


um...no actually, I don't get it.

If a rep at a demo wearing an anti-religious shirt is "representing his company" then wouldn't an other company's anti-religious logo also be representing the other company even moreso because it was actually approved as the freaking company logo?!


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## Leo (Nov 24, 2009)

CK93 said:


> Read what I wrote. When you are representing your company, I feel that was inappropriate. If I saw the NS rep at a bar one night wearing the same shirt, I wouldn't think twice about. But when you are doing your job representing your company, everything you do, say and wear is a direct reflection on the company. What you do on your own time is up to you.
> 
> If I was in the Army, on the job while working wearing a shirt like that, the Army wouldn't put up with it cause of the image it would bring to the army. But if the Army guy was wearing that shirt off duty at a bar---who cares?
> 
> Get it?


RJ was pointing out that Lib Tech's logo is satanic.

Admittedly he is wrong though. Lib Tech's logo is a stick figure with a dunce cap.

So what these people were trying to do was to point out that you went to another brand, because another's rep was wearing anti religious attire, yet the brand you went to has religiously questionable logos. Though he was wrong about the logo.


Sent from Verticalsports.com Free App


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## cb1021 (Nov 21, 2010)

uhhhhhh...so from what I gather NeverSummer is hyped because they are independent and have direct involvement in the online snowboarding community. Also they have great build quality.....

Anything else?


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## sabatoa (Jan 18, 2011)

Leo said:


> RJ was pointing out that Lib Tech's logo is satanic.
> 
> Admittedly he is wrong though. Lib Tech's logo is a stick figure with a dunce cap.
> 
> ...



Mervin, parent company of Lib Tech


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## CK93 (Dec 9, 2012)

sabatoa said:


> um...no actually, I don't get it.
> 
> If a rep at a demo wearing an anti-religious shirt is "representing his company" then wouldn't an other company's anti-religious logo also be representing the other company even moreso because it was actually approved as the freaking company logo?!


Its not about the actual anti religious part of it. I am not religious. It's was just a bad image for the company, for a guy to be displaying stuff like that. Just like I feel its in-appropriate to wear a shirt that says "F$%K OFF" to Disneyland. --like I said my opinion.

But a star and an animal that looks like a poodle to me is not outright offensive. If you believe in Satan and find it offensive, then don't buy a Lib tech---but you don't see, (or at least I haven't) seen Mervin employees damning all christians because of their logo. They don't go around wearing shirts with offensive sayings on them while representing their company (maybe they do, but I haven't seen it)


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## Leo (Nov 24, 2009)

sabatoa said:


> Mervin, parent company of Lib Tech


Oh yea, forgot about that logo that is one every lib tech and GNU board lol.


Sent from Verticalsports.com Free App


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## sabatoa (Jan 18, 2011)

CK93 said:


> Its not about the actual anti religious part of it. I am not religious. It's was just a bad image for the company, for a guy to be displaying stuff like that. Just like I feel its not appropriate to wear a shirt that says "F$%K OFF" to Disneyland. --like I said my opinion.
> 
> But a star and an animal that looks like a poodle to me is not outright offensive. If you believe in Satan and find it offensive, then don't buy a Lib tech---but you don't see, (or at least I haven't) seen Mervin employees damning all christians because of their logo. They don't go around wearing shirts with offensive sayings on them while representing their company (maybe they do, but I haven't seen it)


Out of curiosity, do you remember what the shirt said?


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## Bauba (Jan 16, 2013)

So, I get the impression this is a continually talked about touchy subject?? I'm new to the forum and didn't know, but I am actually glad I asked the question. I think I get it now. There have been some valid points made here I think. Hopefully other newbies looking into NS will check out this post too, just so they can make an educated purchase. 

I got an Infinity a few weeks ago based almost solely on the information found on this forum. I still haven't decided if its all that or not. It could be. Someone above pointed out that this forum only represents a small percentage of riders out there and that those people are naturally going to talk up the things they love. I think this might be the crux of it all. When the average Joe goes online looking to see what peoples general views of boards are, they end up here...at least I did. And I assumed that everybody had to love NS because everyone on this forum did. When in reality there really isn't a lot of hype (good or bad) outside this forum over NS boards, at least that I could find. So, do I think this forum represents how the majority of boarders feel about NS? I don't think so. But do I think that this forum does represent how some really well informed and experienced guys honestly feel about NS? I think so. 

I don't have any problems AT ALL with people loving stuff and saying so. Please do! And, I have to agree that within all the NS love here, I can't say I've heard any hate thrown out about other boards, brands etc. 

It is unfortunate that so much back and forth goes on that doesn't really have anything to do with the actual function of the boards though. That kind of stuff shouldn't persuade buyers one way OR the other, but unfortunately, it does.

So far, all I have realized with my Infinity is that I have to fundamentally change the way I ride on it. Which, IMO isn't the worst thing since I'm a sloppy rider that could really use some improved technique. I guess I'll decide whether Im a NS lover or hater after a few more days of riding.


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## Extremo (Nov 6, 2008)

BurtonAvenger said:


> Simple answer you give some key people free stuff and suddenly everyone starts to jump on the train.


Isn't that how you make your living? Echelon ads on Angrysnowboarder and 3 of their boards end up on your 2013 best board list?


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## CK93 (Dec 9, 2012)

Leo said:


> Oh yea, forgot about that logo that is one every lib tech and GNU board lol.
> 
> 
> Sent from Verticalsports.com Free App


My Hot Knife doesn't have a Mervin logo anywhere on it. But is does have a sexy profile of a female dominatrix! :laugh:


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## oldmate (Oct 24, 2011)

CK93 said:


> Its not about the actual anti religious part of it. I am not religious. It's was just a bad image for the company, for a guy to be displaying stuff like that. Just like I feel its in-appropriate to wear a shirt that says "F$%K OFF" to Disneyland. --like I said my opinion.
> 
> But a star and an animal that looks like a poodle to me is not outright offensive. If you believe in Satan and find it offensive, then don't buy a Lib tech---but you don't see, (or at least I haven't) seen Mervin employees damning all christians because of their logo. They don't go around wearing shirts with offensive sayings on them while representing their company (maybe they do, but I haven't seen it)


What did the shirt say?

Also, personally I wouldn't care about any of that. The demo guys religious views (or the companies religious views) wouldn't make the slightest difference to my buying decision. All I would be interested in is weather I'm getting decent value for money...:dunno:


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## RJRJRJ (Feb 12, 2012)

CK93 said:


> My Hot Knife doesn't have a Mervin logo anywhere on it. But is does have a sexy profile of a female dominatrix! :laugh:


Its usually a sticker that comes on the board. You probably took it off unknowingly.


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## Extremo (Nov 6, 2008)

Bauba said:


> So, I get the impression this is a continually talked about touchy subject?? I'm new to the forum and didn't know, but I am actually glad I asked the question. I think I get it now. There have been some valid points made here I think. Hopefully other newbies looking into NS will check out this post too, just so they can make an educated purchase.
> 
> I got an Infinity a few weeks ago based almost solely on the information found on this forum. I still haven't decided if its all that or not. It could be. Someone above pointed out that this forum only represents a small percentage of riders out there and that those people are naturally going to talk up the things they love. I think this might be the crux of it all. When the average Joe goes online looking to see what peoples general views of boards are, they end up here...at least I did. And I assumed that everybody had to love NS because everyone on this forum did. When in reality there really isn't a lot of hype (good or bad) outside this forum over NS boards, at least that I could find. So, do I think this forum represents how the majority of boarders feel about NS? I don't think so. But do I think that this forum does represent how some really well informed and experienced guys honestly feel about NS? I think so.
> 
> ...


Well since you already own one you should do a review. Being new to the RC hybrid profile myself I'd like to hear if we share a similar experience. It'll be valuable for others coming here to hear your experiences as well. Def keep us posted.


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## Lamps (Sep 3, 2011)

Bauba said:


> So, I get the impression this is a continually talked about touchy subject?? I'm new to the forum and didn't know, but I am actually glad I asked the question. I think I get it now. There have been some valid points made here I think. Hopefully other newbies looking into NS will check out this post too, just so they can make an educated purchase.
> 
> _*I got an Infinity a few weeks ago based almost solely on the information found on this forum. *_I still haven't decided if its all that or not. It could be.


You have to take some responsibilty for your choice and purchase. I would think that at the very least in addition to polling this group you should also go to the mfr's websites and read their stuff, specs and so on, and maybe read a couple other boards or sources of info. 

I've been reading this forum for a few years and I've noticed a little less burton hating lately, a tad less Lib Tech fanboyism, and that a lot of people around here dig Never Summer, and it changes from year to year. 

These are just discussion forums, it's not like it's Consumer Reports with a mission statement for objectivity, asking a question here and other similar forums will get you a bunch of opinions rather than a structured review like Edmunds does for cars for example.


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## CK93 (Dec 9, 2012)

Ok I am bailing out now, this has taken a different turn to what the guy posted intended. Sorry for being apart of it.

But this is not about a companies or person religious views. Its how a company/business portrays itself. You think Disney would let an employee get interviewed on tv wearing a shirt with a picture of a woman getting raped on it? No, because by that guy working for Disney and representing them for the interview would be in appropriate. But wearing that shirt at a night club would be no issue. I don't get why that is such a hard idea to understand. 

And even if the Mervin logo was on the board, it wouldn't have stopped me from buying it. This is being twisted from what I was trying to say.


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## Cr0_Reps_Smit (Jun 27, 2009)

Extremo said:


> Isn't that how you make your living? Echelon ads on Angrysnowboarder and 3 of their boards end up on your 2013 best board list?


there's a phunkshun neck wear ad on there but i don't think i've ever seen a echelon ad on his site.


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## sabatoa (Jan 18, 2011)

Cr0_Reps_Smit said:


> there's a phunkshun neck wear ad on there but i don't think i've ever seen a echelon ad on his site.


Not that I care either way but it's there. I just took this screen shot.

Again though, whatever. I trust him if he says something is good or not.


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## Bauba (Jan 16, 2013)

Lamps said:


> You have to take some responsibilty for your choice and purchase. I would think that at the very least in addition to polling this group you should also go to the mfr's websites and read their stuff, specs and so on, and maybe read a couple other boards or sources of info.
> 
> I've been reading this forum for a few years and I've noticed a little less burton hating lately, a tad less Lib Tech fanboyism, and that a lot of people around here dig Never Summer, and it changes from year to year.
> 
> These are just discussion forums, it's not like it's Consumer Reports with a mission statement for objectivity, asking a question here and other similar forums will get you a bunch of opinions rather than a structured review like Edmunds does for cars for example.


I take full responsibility for my purchase. I don't think I've whined about it at all. I'm not even sure I regret it. I did a TON of research. The problem was, outside of sbf.com, I really couldn't find much on NS except what was on the NS site and a few (less than 5) independent reviews. Trust me...I looked. I spent the better part of 2 weeks, and I'm talking hours a day, reading everything I could find about different boards. I narrowed it down to 4 or 5 and researched the hell out of those boards. I can explain to you, in detail, the manufactures sites and board info. I demo'd boards for 5 days. In that 5 days, I probably rode 15 boards. Demoing a NS wasn't an option...I wish. How could I have taken more responsibility for my choice/purchase?


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## Bauba (Jan 16, 2013)

Extremo said:


> Well since you already own one you should do a review. Being new to the RC hybrid profile myself I'd like to hear if we share a similar experience. It'll be valuable for others coming here to hear your experiences as well. Def keep us posted.


I plan on doing a review as soon as I really nail down how I feel about it.:thumbsup: I want to make sure Ive given it a fair shot and can accurately review it. If it turns out I don't love it, I want to be able to identify why. I don't want to turn others away from a board that may be awesome for them, just because it didn't fit my riding style technique etc.


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## Treegreen (Mar 16, 2012)

Bauba said:


> I take full responsibility for my purchase. I don't think I've whined about it at all. I'm not even sure I regret it. I did a TON of research. The problem was, outside of sbf.com, I really couldn't find much on NS except what was on the NS site and a few (less than 5) independent reviews. Trust me...I looked. I spent the better part of 2 weeks, and I'm talking hours a day, reading everything I could find about different boards. I narrowed it down to 4 or 5 and researched the hell out of those boards. I can explain to you, in detail, the manufactures sites and board info. I demo'd boards for 5 days. In that 5 days, I probably rode 15 boards. Demoing a NS wasn't an option...I wish. How could I have taken more responsibility for my choice/purchase?


I'm fairly new to the forum as well, but I think to be totally fair I've noticed people getting a lot of great brand suggestions on most of the "What board should I get posts." Sure, NS has a big presence here, but I don't think I've come across many (if any) posts where a person asking for advice did not get a fairly wide range of boards. I've also noticed the ladies seem to steer people in a different direction with a lot of Roxy love, some Rossignol, and a little Rome. I've also noticed in suggestion posts that people make note of the fact that the NS profile is not for everyone.


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## redlude97 (Jan 9, 2008)

I think the NS story here on SBF has two parts. For those that have been around for awhile, you will remember 4 years ago with NS was the first company to push hybrid Camber/Rocker/Camber while most of the big companies where still on the straight rocker craze. Back then I think the hype was legitimetly about the tech and how much better it rode than many of the other now defunct rockers. Without that initial inovation NS wouldn't be where it was today, no matter how many boards they sent to members here.

Today with most companies employing some type of hybrid camber/rocker combination, the advantages of NS are maybe not as pronounced and its more about build/aesthetics/tech/dampness and to some extent hype. I often see threads where NS is suggested for people for no particular reason, when I don't think its actually the easiest hybrid rocker to learn on, RCR feels a lot different than CRC or variations and yet people will say things along the lines of it being the best board ever! when each person's preference may vary.

I have tried quite a few lifted contact point technologies now from TBT, full rocker, RCR, and CRC of various companies and find I like CRC the best so I generally ride NS RC Tech/GNU C2 BTX. Each type has its benefits and drawbacks however and you have to sift through the answers because most people haven't ridden enough boards to really provide a good answer. I think this is where some of the NS hype is getting out of hand and why there is starting to be some anti-hype backlash when other companies make boards that ride similarly now. 4 years ago that just wasn't the case.


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## Extremo (Nov 6, 2008)

sabatoa said:


> Not that I care either way but it's there. I just took this screen shot.
> 
> Again though, whatever. I trust him if he says something is good or not.


Yeah, I'm not disputing whether they're good or not. I'm just pointing out that if you introduce people to a product and they like it, they'll hype it.


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## sabatoa (Jan 18, 2011)

Extremo said:


> Yeah, I'm not disputing whether they're good or not. I'm just pointing out that if you introduce people to a product and they like it, they'll hype it.


For sure.

10char


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## Bauba (Jan 16, 2013)

Treegreen said:


> I'm fairly new to the forum as well, but I think to be totally fair I've noticed people getting a lot of great brand suggestions on most of the "What board should I get posts." Sure, NS has a big presence here, but I don't think I've come across many (if any) posts where a person asking for advice did not get a fairly wide range of boards. I've also noticed the ladies seem to steer people in a different direction with a lot of Roxy love, some Rossignol, and a little Rome. I've also noticed in suggestion posts that people make note of the fact that the NS profile is not for everyone.


I agree completely.

Not being confrontational, but seriously curious.....Did I say something in the post you quoted that made you think differently?:blink:


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## jpb3 (Nov 29, 2009)

NS is a great American Company and they make great boards if you like dampness and durability. I think the RC is just OK though, not a big fan actually. My last two NS boards are both Heritages, one a traditional camber from 2007 and the other a RC version circa 2010 I think. I like the RC version in Powder but that is about it. For groomers its just not stable enough for my liking and doesn't "hook up" and carve like I am use to since I started riding many many moons ago. I found myself going back to the camber Heritage unless it was dumping the last two years.

So.....

This year I picked up a BSOD and I love it. Not sure if its b/c I have ridden NS exclusively 6 years or so but it is so nice to be back on a lively and not too damp board. Yeah, the BSOD gets bucked around in chop but its so damn fun to ride and fooking carves down the hill like an addict looking for a fix. Total one track mind and that is to just fkin point it and hold on. I love it. It made me realize that unless I need float for powder I do not like rocker between my feet at all, the BSOD has camber just past inserts where it then goes basically flat until the FK at the tips.....great set up for my preferred style of riding. 

It also has lots more pop compared the NS boards, is lighter, and has a faster base imo. So I haven't touched my NS boards the whole year since I got the BSOD and probably won't. They may be for sale soon unless I keep the RC version for Pow days.

Opinions are like assholes everyone has one so my advice it to take all (including mine) with a grain of salt and decide for yourself which boards you like. Ride as many as you can and if you were like me and were stuck on a particular brand for years switch it up, sometime the grass is greener.


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## Cr0_Reps_Smit (Jun 27, 2009)

sabatoa said:


> Not that I care either way but it's there. I just took this screen shot.
> 
> Again though, whatever. I trust him if he says something is good or not.


yea that's weird, i dont see any ads on the right side of the page in my browser. i just see the big on up top.


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## vknyvz (Jan 23, 2013)

wow i just ordered my new board yesterday 163cm never summer cobra x, didn't realize sbf is a never summer heaven lol

i was going to get a custom x 162cm after demoing it like last week, but then choose on this one

lol i don't really know why, but I read so many positive reviews on never summer's R&C profile, and no not on this site just on the internet. and custom x was 650 and regular camber and cobra x was 50 dollars less so I went with NS, also lurking the internet for NS boards, you won't hear anything bad about'em


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## Leo (Nov 24, 2009)

Well, one stipulation about receiving free boards to keep and review...

NS emphasizes we provide genuine feedback. They have already proven that they listen to critique. 

And from what I recall, NS was already well hyped on these forums before they started giving out boards to review to existing members here.

Sure, getting a product for free might cause a person to be biased. I can only speak for myself here...

I can't emphasize enough that I have ample opportunity to get free boards or at least at a deep discount. I genuinely love NS boards. Just so happens its hyped here and now I'm a part of it. I don't care though. It's not like I'm going into threads about other boards and recommending NS's line without merit.

Besides, what about other riders who pay for NS boards? Wouldn't there be a backlash of how the boards don't live up to the hype if they weren't good?

But I guess no one is really arguing whether or not they are good boards. Just about hype...

Yup, NS is hyped here. It's been that way long before the reviewers. 


Sent from Verticalsports.com Free App


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## Treegreen (Mar 16, 2012)

Bauba said:


> I agree completely.
> 
> Not being confrontational, but seriously curious.....Did I say something in the post you quoted that made you think differently?:blink:


No, it was more of a response to the original post, but I was being lazy and it made it unclear. Also, in a perfect world we'd obviously demo every board under the sun so I applaud you for actually taking the time to try a lot of different stuff out. Out of curiosity, from the boards you did demo, do you feel like you might have actually preferred any of them over your current NS deck?


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## Bauba (Jan 16, 2013)

Treegreen said:


> No, it was more of a response to the original post, but I was being lazy and it made it unclear. Also, in a perfect world we'd obviously demo every board under the sun so I applaud you for actually taking the time to try a lot of different stuff out. Out of curiosity, from the boards you did demo, do you feel like you might have actually preferred any of them over your current NS deck?


Yes and No. It depends on the terrain, the snow conditions and how much I want to concentrate on what Im doing. I've realized over the last 8 years of riding strictly camber, that I have some bad riding habits. For instance, I need to keep more weight on my front foot when going from toe to heel, allowing the board to come around on its own rather than 'kicking' it around with my back foot. There are a few of those and honestly, I think my habits and the hybrid profiles don't mesh real well.

I demo'd an K2 Eco Lite and I love it so much I bought one even though I had just gotten the Infinity. The Eco Lite is a flat freeride board with some rocker at the nose and tail. The men's equiv is called the Turbo Dream I believe. Its so forgiving and stable on flats, jumps etc and its amazing in powder. But, IMO its pretty sketchy at high speeds, and skatey on hard pack or ice. It seems like it allows me to ride sloppy though. So its easy. Hence, I like it. 

Of all the hybrid decks I tried (and there was a variety of both mens and womens), I think I do like the NS the best. When I concentrate on what Im doing, I think the NS has good stability and edge control. It seems to handle a wide range of terrain and snow conditions well too. I tend to think that I am the only thing wrong with the NS, but I haven't ridden it enough to know for sure because I tend to grab the K2 because its so much easier.


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## silverwhale (Nov 17, 2012)

Bauba said:


> Yes and No. It depends on the terrain, the snow conditions and how much I want to concentrate on what Im doing. I've realized over the last 8 years of riding strictly camber, that I have some bad riding habits. For instance, I need to keep more weight on my front foot when going from toe to heel, allowing the board to come around on its own rather than 'kicking' it around with my back foot. There are a few of those and honestly, I think my habits and the hybrid profiles don't mesh real well.
> 
> I demo'd an K2 Eco Lite and I love it so much I bought one even though I had just gotten the Infinity. The Eco Lite is a flat freeride board with some rocker at the nose and tail. The men's equiv is called the Turbo Dream I believe. Its so forgiving and stable on flats, jumps etc and its amazing in powder. But, IMO its pretty sketchy at high speeds, and skatey on hard pack or ice. It seems like it allows me to ride sloppy though. So its easy. Hence, I like it.
> 
> Of all the hybrid decks I tried (and there was a variety of both mens and womens), I think I do like the NS the best. When I concentrate on what Im doing, I think the NS has good stability and edge control. It seems to handle a wide range of terrain and snow conditions well too. I tend to think that I am the only thing wrong with the NS, but I haven't ridden it enough to know for sure because I tend to grab the K2 because its so much easier.


What other women's boards did you demo? (I'm just curious, got a new board this year and couldn't actually go anywhere to demo. Wish I could have! Although I really like the board I got so far. But I like reading direct comparison reviews of the boards I was considering).


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## BurtonAvenger (Aug 14, 2007)

Extremo said:


> Isn't that how you make your living? Echelon ads on Angrysnowboarder and 3 of their boards end up on your 2013 best board list?


Seeing as that ad deal was signed after the 1st of the year 2013 that's interesting. Plus where's the Yes, Flow, and Arbor ads?

Come on you weak minded fucktard get a new line to try and troll me.


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## Nivek (Jan 24, 2008)

Extremo said:


> Yeah, I'm not disputing whether they're good or not. I'm just pointing out that if you introduce people to a product and they like it, they'll hype it.


If you give people free product they'll hype it too. Just sayin.


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## MarshallV82 (Apr 6, 2011)

I've owned boards from Burton, Ride, Option, Signal, K2 and Neversummer. I kinda wanted a Lib Tech board but everyone had one where I ride so I went with Never Summer, wound up loving the board. 

Until I got the Evo I thought I would never find a board I liked more than my 09 Burton Supermodel. after burton went with the ICS I ditched them, I'm not paying an extra 100 bucks for bindings that don't feel like they're going to fall off. 

The rest were fine as well.. I really don't think it matters, just enjoy the damn mountain! I've never found a board I couldn't have fun on..


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## blunted_nose (Apr 26, 2012)

God doesn't exist, salute Satan. Eat shit baby dick.

I LOL'ed when i saw the "guy wearing the t-shirt" post. Grow up and stop believing in nonsense.


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## Extremo (Nov 6, 2008)

BurtonAvenger said:


> Seeing as that ad deal was signed after the 1st of the year 2013 that's interesting. Plus where's the Yes, Flow, and Arbor ads?
> 
> Come on you weak minded fucktard get a new line to try and troll me.


Of all boards and brands you get 3 boards from a completely unheard of and obscure start up company in the BEST boards list...BEST? And you just happen to ride with Corbo who just signed with them, and you have their ad on your website? Let's just assume that's not complete buulllshiiit. 

All I'm saying is you like a brand, you're hyping them. Others on this forum like product, and they're hyping it.

But the fact that you got all ape shit neurotic over just the possible insinuation makes you look like a shit for brains sell out. But If Cro says they're good, his words good enough for me.


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## Nivek (Jan 24, 2008)

Extremo said:


> Haha...Yes, Arbor, and Flow all make the 2013 best boards list too. Do I smell a stanky shit for brains sell out. Objective board reviews? Buuuulll shiiiitttt.


There also happens to be Endeavor, Rome, Salomon, Sims, and Marhar making it into top picks/runner ups.

Keep tryin.


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## JBthe3rd (Jan 31, 2012)

... Some of you all need to take a chill pill ! It's not that serious!!! Do wtf you wanna do !! Ride wtf you wanna ride! Its all about the fun !! People are entitled to their opinions ! Go Have fun enjoy yourselves !


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## Extremo (Nov 6, 2008)

Nivek said:


> There also happens to be Endeavor, Rome, Salomon, Sims, and Marhar making it into top picks/runner ups.
> 
> Keep tryin.


It's cute that you come to your boyfriends defense. I don't know what you're getting so fucking vagina over. All I'm pointing out is BA is hyping a brand that he's personally benefiting from, the same way you're insinuating others on this forum are hyping a brand they're personally benefiting from. You're suggesting the reviews are biased, anyone else could insinuate the same about BA (not me, I know he's fucking biased). Do you not get the concept? Is there an intelligence gap here?


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## nomembername (Mar 21, 2011)

Isn't Echelon just a new board company using Omatic technology which BA was big on prior to Echelon forming?


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## Extremo (Nov 6, 2008)

nomembername said:


> Isn't Echelon just a new board company using Omatic technology which BA was big on prior to Echelon forming?


BA was big on it because he's a Breck local and TR fanboy. If that shit was Burton he would have shit all over it. Ah the good ol days. El Snowboardo shitting all over the big b...just cuz.


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## dreampow (Sep 26, 2011)

Buying or not buying boards because of popularity or market share or popularity on this forum doesn't make any sense to me. 

Does the board suit your riding style and help you enjoy snowboarding?

Buy a board based on as many reviews and opinions you can get or better still a demo.

I have ridden most of the major brands and tried an NS for the first time last year.

I personally have found the board (proto CT) to be excellent and suit my needs very well. I have had plenty of knocks from other riders and rocks etc and the durability is top notch.

I would love to try out an arbor coda and nitro team gullwing and may get the chance this year.


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## seant46 (Dec 8, 2009)

dreampow said:


> Buying or not buying boards because of popularity or market share or popularity on this forum doesn't make any sense to me.
> 
> Does the board suit your riding style and help you enjoy snowboarding?
> 
> ...


Do you ride your proto in pow? If so im just curious how a true twin NS handles in the deep stuff compared to my directional SL? Im thinking of buying a true twin next time even for powder when I rarely get the chance to ride it.


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## jdang307 (Feb 6, 2011)

dreampow said:


> Buying or not buying boards because of popularity or market share or popularity on this forum doesn't make any sense to me.
> 
> Does the board suit your riding style and help you enjoy snowboarding?
> 
> ...


Love the Coda. Arbor stuff is fun, just not durable as the NS's are.

One day rode the Cobra at Crystal Mountain. Fast, fast fast (for me). Surprisingly still pretty flexible. But Damp.

Next day at Stevens Pass (snow was a little softer that day, inversion etc., it was a lot colder at Crystal) rode the Westmark. Whoa what a difference. Much less stable, but more playful, and much more forgiving. My legs were pretty tired the second day (due to some shenanigans at crystal) so I was a little sloppy, riding around with the wife and others. No problem.

The Cobra, with the stock sharp 0/0 edges and camber sections, if I even thought about getting sloppy it was twitch, reminding me to stay focused. Tired? Fuck you pay me (Goodfellas!). Lazy? Fuck you pay me.

You really gotta be on your game with the Cobra on firm conditions.


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## dreampow (Sep 26, 2011)

I would say the proto does very well in powder and I only set it back if its very deep like more than 50cm. It is certainly as good as an SL if you set it back and even if you don't its a small difference.

Here is my review of the proto where I talk more about powder performance at the bottom.

http://www.snowboardingforum.com/snowboard-reviews/47843-review-proto-ct-japanese-snow.html


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## sabatoa (Jan 18, 2011)

I'll chime in I guess.

I don't have ANY experience with other boards besides Never Summer and my first board, a price point Lamar I got for $88 at Dick's so my perspective is that of the new guy trying to progress and get into this while also having decent expendable income.

Maybe because of the forum or my relationship with some of the guys here but it seemed like it was really easy to dial in what NS board suited my needs based on the way they market their lineup. NS does a great job of "If you like to ride like this, then X is the board for that." Especially for people like me that knew what I wanted to ride like but didn't have access to demo a bunch of stuff.

I liked the small niche'ness of NS. I liked what I knew about the company. Like the post a while back, maybe it was the serendipity of their marketing strategy and me falling into the perfect demographic. In a market full of very similar options, these things helped justify one company over another for me. Is that good or bad, I don't know and kinda don't care.

What does matter is that in the end, I love my board and have been so happy with my purchase and support of NS. It's fun to ride. 

It's helped me progress. How? Because I still have nasty habits and occasionally I should catch the hell out of an edge and bust my face but it doesn't happen. The RC profile helps keep me upright when I know I should have been toast and that confidence in my board helped me to push myself.

(Having said that, I will be taking lessons next season to clean up my faults and bad habits)

Is it all psychology? :dunno: All I know is that it works and I'm happy.

oh and since we're talking about it...

I did something funky to my board when I busted my back. I just discovered it last night. I sent an email to NS this evening and within an hour I had a personal phone call from Never Summer and an RA to get my board sent to them as soon as I can get it boxed up. 

No idea what they'll do once they receive it, whether it's covered by the 3 year warranty or not but the fast response? That is seriously killer customer service.


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## seant46 (Dec 8, 2009)

dreampow said:


> I would say the proto does very well in powder and I only set it back if its very deep like more than 50cm. It is certainly as good as an SL if you set it back and even if you don't its a small difference.
> 
> Here is my review of the proto where I talk more about powder performance at the bottom.
> 
> http://www.snowboardingforum.com/snowboard-reviews/47843-review-proto-ct-japanese-snow.html


Awesome, I got all the info I needed out of that(and a little jealousy of all the powder you get to ride:laugh. Thanks!!


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## Karpediem (Aug 29, 2007)

Extremo said:


> Ah the good ol days. El Snowboardo shitting all over the big b...just cuz.


How many people here know what you mean by that? I miss the old days :sad:

I bought my NS based on the reviews/hype on this forum and it works well for me. I remember how hard I was looking for an Omatic back in the day though.


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## Bauba (Jan 16, 2013)

silverwhale said:


> What other women's boards did you demo? (I'm just curious, got a new board this year and couldn't actually go anywhere to demo. Wish I could have! Although I really like the board I got so far. But I like reading direct comparison reviews of the boards I was considering).


Unfortunately, there weren't many women's boards for me to demo. I'm 5,10, 150 lbs, size 9 boot. Most of the women's demo boards were just way too short for me...like 149s and stuff. So, the majority of the boards I rode were men's. For women's boards, I have ridden the K2 Eco Lite, Solomon Gypsy, GNu Bpro, a rental of some kind (don't remember what one, cuz I was just trying to get a feel for the straight up rocker and I didn't like it), and the NS Infinity.


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## BrendanMorgan (Jan 22, 2013)

I have never ridden a NS board I have a feeling I will in the future. I really like that on their website there are certain reviews that link back to this forum. Not all the reviews are completely positive but they are honest. I like that honesty.

Most of the time from companies all you get is marketing hype but I think NS really just wants to get better and better at making boards. That said, I wish they would hire some different artists.....


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## BurtonAvenger (Aug 14, 2007)

Extremo said:


> Of all boards and brands you get 3 boards from a completely unheard of and obscure start up company in the BEST boards list...BEST? And you just happen to ride with Corbo who just signed with them, and you have their ad on your website? Let's just assume that's not complete buulllshiiit.
> 
> All I'm saying is you like a brand, you're hyping them. Others on this forum like product, and they're hyping it.
> 
> But the fact that you got all ape shit neurotic over just the possible insinuation makes you look like a shit for brains sell out. But If Cro says they're good, his words good enough for me.


Neurotic please I love baiting your ass and watching you flip out because you have no proof in anything you say. Do some research on why Corbo is riding for Echelon now, might blow your mind. Still not sure how me going "hey talk to this brand they're looking for riders" even remotely benefits me. 



Extremo said:


> It's cute that you come to your boyfriends defense. I don't know what you're getting so fucking vagina over. All I'm pointing out is BA is hyping a brand that he's personally benefiting from, the same way you're insinuating others on this forum are hyping a brand they're personally benefiting from. You're suggesting the reviews are biased, anyone else could insinuate the same about BA (not me, I know he's fucking biased). Do you not get the concept? Is there an intelligence gap here?


Yeah cause an ad that went up middle of this month nearly 6 months after I finished all product reviews means I'm bought off. Fuck where's the Wi-Me award? Hmm. Oh shit better get on top of that now. 



Extremo said:


> BA was big on it because he's a Breck local and TR fanboy. If that shit was Burton he would have shit all over it. Ah the good ol days. El Snowboardo shitting all over the big b...just cuz.


Yeah cause TR still lives here full time or even owns a house here. Couldn't be that Jason Kanes is an amazing board designer that has built countless decks I've liked riding. 

Oh Extremo you fucking troglodyte. You're such a fun target to pick on and watch get bent out of shape. I could have a Burton ad on the site and you would say the same thing. Your small minded nature is hilarious and the fact that stuff I did a decade ago still has you upset shows how pathetic you are.

I must be doing something right if what I do so adversely effects you. Keep up the Internet hate people like you have helped create and sustain my career.


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## CK93 (Dec 9, 2012)

sabatoa said:


> I did something funky to my board when I busted my back. I just discovered it last night. I sent an email to NS this evening and within an hour I had a personal phone call from Never Summer and an RA to get my board sent to them as soon as I can get it boxed up.
> 
> No idea what they'll do once they receive it, whether it's covered by the 3 year warranty or not but the fast response? That is seriously killer customer service.


Wow, that seems the incredible compared to what my view of the company was. Hopefully they can continue to keep that level of service with everyone. 

Before I went up to demo the boards, I was emailing them to get prices of boards. It always took days before I would get a response.


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## binarypie (Nov 29, 2009)

For full disclosure.

Then there is always this 

56538-never-summer-design-team.html



Vman said:


> For 2013 Never Summer Industries has selected an elite design group from outside our organization. The mission of the team is to provide honest, detailed and comprehensive reviews on our 2013/14 snowboard models. To answer questions in a tactful and respectful way about the how the tech/design influence the boards performance, compare and contrast models to help people determine which board is right for them when they're considering our brand. An emphasis of the group is to help us with the design and development of new product, improve existing models and determine what riders are looking for from us.
> 
> 
> *Team Roster/Bio:*
> ...


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## ARSENALFAN (Apr 16, 2012)

sabatoa said:


> Mervin, parent company of Lib Tech


Call me crazy or a wanker, but I peeled that sticker off my board as soon as I got it. As a Christian, it wasn't something I wanted on my ride. I didn't like looking at it before riding a sketchy line. Would it stop me from buying another Libtech? Probably not. But I would prefer they get rid of it. And I ain't a bible thumper. My snowboarding bud can attest to that.


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## blunted_nose (Apr 26, 2012)

ARSENALFAN said:


> Call me crazy or a wanker, but I peeled that sticker off my board as soon as I got it. As a Christian, it wasn't something I wanted on my ride. I didn't like looking at it before riding a sketchy line. Would it stop me from buying another Libtech? Probably not. But I would prefer they get rid of it. And I ain't a bible thumper. My snowboarding bud can attest to that.


They cant cater to everyone, i say un-stick it and forget it.


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## CK93 (Dec 9, 2012)

blunted_nose said:


> They cant cater to everyone, i say un-stick it and forget it.


Yeah if I could go back and delete my post--I would :huh:


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## ARSENALFAN (Apr 16, 2012)

Why? I agree with your post. The guy shouldn't have been wearing a shirt like that while representing the company. :thumbsup:


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## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

I'm as anti-organized religion as anyone you'll ever find, but potentially alienated customers is just not smart business.


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## CK93 (Dec 9, 2012)

ARSENALFAN said:


> Why? I agree with your post. The guy shouldn't have been wearing a shirt like that while representing the company. :thumbsup:


Yeah, I still feel the same way, just didn't like all the negativity it stirred up. I feel bad it got to that point.


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## ARSENALFAN (Apr 16, 2012)

CK93 said:


> Yeah, I still feel the same way, just didn't like all the negativity it stirred up. I feel bad it got to that point.


Don't feel bad about anything on this board. All hell breaks loose on most threads. If you take everything to heart, you will need to be medicated. I am already medicated, so everything is cool :laugh:


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## Leo (Nov 24, 2009)

linvillegorge said:


> I'm as anti-organized religion as anyone you'll ever find, but potentially alienated customers is just not smart business.


It's not smart on the individual's part. Has nothing to do with the company. Furthermore, demo tent workers usually aren't really that involved with the company. Some are volunteers even. You can't realistically expect a company to hunt this tent employee down and slap him on the wrist. That tent worker probably won't even care. 

Honestly, I think you guys give too much power to such innocuous things. So what if he had a shirt that offends YOU? Why are you letting a shirt bother you to the point of putting a ban on an entire brand based off one tent employee's shirt? You are giving silly shirts and images like the Mervin one power over you.


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## snowklinger (Aug 30, 2011)

Snowolf said:


> There is news coming shortly that will no doubt cause some butt hurt among some and excite others. To that end, all I can say is to stay tuned for an announcement around the 8'th of February.


Internet butthurt is one of my favorite things aside from whiskers on kittens.


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## CK93 (Dec 9, 2012)

Leo said:


> It's not smart on the individual's part. Has nothing to do with the company. Furthermore, demo tent workers usually aren't really that involved with the company. Some are volunteers even. You can't realistically expect a company to hunt this tent employee down and slap him on the wrist. That tent worker probably won't even care.
> 
> Honestly, I think you guys give too much power to such innocuous things. So what if he had a shirt that offends YOU? Why are you letting a shirt bother you to the point of putting a ban on an entire brand based off one tent employee's shirt? You are giving silly shirts and images like the Mervin one power over you.


Great---here we again!:dizzy:


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## Donutz (May 12, 2010)

I bought my Heritage back in the fall of 2010. I had no connection with the company or with anyone on the forum. I bought it because it was being offered for a good price, people had said good things about NS, and I was curious about the rocker/camber. Also because I'd outgrown my beginner board.

I like the Heritage. I make no bones about that. I don't claim it's the best board out there because I haven't owned enough boards to make that determination. But it's a good board, and lives up to any of the hype that I've read about it.

My next board will probably be an NS, but not definitely. Something else might trigger my curiousity or someone might just be selling something for killer cheap at the right time.


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## ippy (Mar 11, 2010)

binarypie said:


> For full disclosure.
> 
> Then there is always this
> 
> 56538-never-summer-design-team.html



Holy crap! Thats just... um... i dont even know how to get my head around it. I always knew this place was a bit kool aid on neversummer, and i dont hate them, they make solid decks, but wow!  

This is how it is though on any message board on any subject: A few of the more active guys who know their stuff tend to dictate the main drive of the conversation. If you come here, prepare to have neversummer shoved down your throat, and if you go to easyloungin, expect to have C3 or whatever core riders set up his own brand this year shoved down your throat. Theres not many places to really talk about this stuff without a certain degree of bias. Just get a feel of the forum youre in, and then treat further discussions on it with a bit of suspicion. Once you pick up a few opinions outside the remits of that forum, youll get a more balanced idea of it all. 

Hook ups always affect someones capacity for objectivity. Ask any doctor getting sent on luxury trips from any pharmaceutical company. Actually, dont bother. Theyll tell you what everyone else is saying here... of course theyre objective and of course they appreciate the hook up but it doesnt affect their judgement! (And thats why pharmaceuticals dont really have budgets for that type of thing. Its completely ineffective and a waste of effort since all doctors are too smart to fall for it). :/ 

But thats all by the by. Once you get a feel for a website youll start to balance the hype with cynical disregard. Neversummer make great boards, and i love my forces, my charlie slasher, my quiver killer and my coal beanies, and ill recommend them because i also have a bias on limited riding experience which just comes back to "well, i kinda liked it!". We aint none of us immune. 

If you want to see if neversummer boards are great (or a piece of shit), the best thing you can probably do is tune out the forums and find out when they demo your end and check them out for yourself. Then again, the reason youre looking for a neversummer demo day is probably the hype on the forums. Swings and roundabouts.


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## ETM (Aug 11, 2009)

No offense to anyone but this will just make anything said about NS look like advertising now. You can say this or that but thats how its gonna look. I dont care either way but my gut instinct is real bad on this one.


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## cocolulu (Jan 21, 2011)

Wow! For me personally, I think it's awesome that a board company solicits feedback from riders and fosters word-of-mouth marketing.

As for myself, I bought an Infinity based on recommendations here. I wouldn't say I'm a fangirl, but I would buy NS again, and wouldn't hesitate to recommend it (but also point out its flaws).

A few years ago, there were fewer options for hybrid camber boards, and rocker boards had issues. But I think over the years, more manufacturers started making hybrid boards, and rocker boarders have gotten better and better. So, NS's advantages aren't so clear cut anymore, and there's many other snowboards that seem awesome.

Really, I don't hate any brand. It's not like anybody is mowing down forests full of indigenous tribal farmers or anything. I even have Burton stuff, and I LOVE Burton bindings, and appreciate the positive things they initially did for the sport.

NS makes good boards, they seem to be an honest, socially-conscious company. I don't see any reason to hate them just because they're popular. All things being equal, I'd rather see my money go to a US company too... but that hasn't stopped me from buying Arbor stuff (mass produced in Europe in a faceless factory, blah blah blah).


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## ippy (Mar 11, 2010)

I felt i was pretty fair. I didnt say that you wouldnt allow discussion on anything else, just that neversummer gets rammed down your throat here. And just remember, its not just me saying that, its not just me "accusing" you of that. "Its generated by your fellow forum members and riders" who have come here looking for advice and information and wondering why on earth every other thread and recommendation seems to be 'have you thought about neversummer?'

I didnt start this thread, its page 9 by the time i commented on it. My original comment was going to be similar i guess, but seeing that whole project thing was somewhat discouraging. 

To be honest, your reply is rather ridiculous, i didnt call you names, i didnt single anyone out, hell i tried to be fair and make the point that bias exists in all of our recommendations and maybe we should accept that before going off the deep end. However, this site has for a long time been behind neversummer, just as EL has been behind capita/c3. The fact is that your relationship has altered to a much more formal and concrete one. Youd be daft to pretend otherwise. Why not just accept its changed and take responsibility and discuss it instead of attacking people for not sharing your opinion. You suggest youll somehow not promote neversummer over other brands? Well, time will be the judge of that, surely? 

Look, ive no idea why youre so upset about this, your own site and your own forum wanted to ask you a question why theres so much neversummer hype on this forum, but instead of just saying "a lot of the members here have had a long standing relationship with them (read your own blurb from the aforementioned thread) and we've had a nice collaborative relationship for a few years", im getting some kind of personal attack because i used a phrase that rather accurately describes the actions of a great many of the people on this forum. 

As an example, I just participated in a thread that you could fairly summarize as "my girlfriend doesnt like her neversummer, what the hell is wrong with her???" She'd ridden it on two different occasions, she didn't like it either time, and people convinced him to have her try it again! Insane. It wasnt like she didnt have her own preferences, it was clearly stated she liked her old board and she much preferred the demo board she used instead. She just didnt like that board. Its seriously crazy. And yet there's the poor dude being told to get her to try it again and that it "just takes a while to adjust", as if she has no idea what she could possibly want! I genuinely couldnt believe what i was reading here. Its important, and ill be making this point a lot. Im not accusing you or any of the other people on this program of telling her to stick with the neversummer. Im not even saying that the neversummer dudes on this forum told her to stick with the neversummer. Its just fellow forum users. 

Just remember, im no one special. Im not in the industry. I dont have an agenda. Im just one of those "fellow forum member" who happens to disagree with your opinion (for that is what it is) that this association is going to be bias free. Im just someone who comes here looking for information on things like the new tech for 2014 and finds 14 pages of people arguing about whether neversummer graphics are good or not. 

As for your other claims, im afraid youre not really the judge of those. Time will be, though. I look forward to the reviews crucifying R+C as an outmoded tech that delivers none of the playful looseness of rocker and none of the bite, energy and response of camber. Im sure they'll be there because you have what, 15 people all with their own opinions, riding styles, and preferences on what they like and what they choose to ride in their free time. So clearly not all of them will like, let alone LOVE R+C/vario. Im absolutely sure it wont be a bunch of reviews saying that these boards are all great boards! (with minor insignificant caveats). Because that would be massively unrealistically, right, and show nothing but complete bias on your behalf, right? 

As i say, you dont get to make the decision on your own bias, the people reading your reviews do. And part of what will factor into that decision is the extremely close relationship between this site and neversummer youve now just gotten into, im afraid. You might not like this, and you might then needlessly lash out and attack the people who disagree with you by throwing out completely non-biased and objective language like "bitching and moaning" and "whiners", or calling them "childish" and telling them they are "full of shit", but theyre entitled to consider the matter suspect now that the relationship is so... intimate. 

As for the big accusation that im suggesting there is an orchestrated bias. I certainly said no such thing. I suggested a bias had formed, that it was orchestrated is a complete straw man and an attempt to dismiss the point (as well as any other comments disagreeing with you) as being paranoid and absurd. Maybe a more accurate reading and explanation is in order, since it will help you make your case better if you attack my actual point and not the one you yourself created. I know what i wrote, it was clear and direct. I made no insinuation as to WHY the bias came about, i merely said there was one. Thus any attribution as to orchestration is a fiction created by your good self (Though one might stir the pot and ask why youre being so defensive?)

Maybe its your baby. Maybe it was your idea. Thats cool, but please reflect a little. Of COURSE this affiliation will have consequences on the perception of the neutrality of the information given on this site. You would have to be actually crazy to think it wont. Your whole drive shouldnt be to randomly abuse people because they disagree with you and then revert to name calling and straw men arguments to make your point (or worse, telling them to leave the site). Instead perhaps explain it rationally, explain the potential pitfalls of the closeness of you relationship on the sites neutrality objectivity, and then be open to the charge and recognise the possibility that it is right that we should be critical and that calling it into question is an appropriate and rational thing to do. 

Again, im no hater, im just a normal forum user who has found the neversummer bias on this forum at times PERSONALLY unbearable. The 14 pages of people arguing about neversummers graphics was tedious and frustrating. It was equally frustrating to find that as soon as the neversummer stuff got moved, the 2014 thread ground to a halt. 

And its important you get this point: Im not suggesting that the hype is orchestrated or that other brands are banned from being talked about, just as im not suggesting that it was that admin on this site suddenly restricted information on the 2014 thread causing it to limp on with about 1/4 of the previous momentum. These are straw men arguments. I am however suggesting that there is a massive amount of discussion on these forums, (orchestrated or otherwise) about neversummer that accurately charactarises the description of having "neversummer shoved down your throat". Indeed, you spend a great deal of time attacking that point, and then immediately agreeing with it by explaining away the fondness of neversummer on this site as just fellow forum users (ive used this a few times in this passage rather deliberately by the way) passing on the stoke because they LOVE THE BOARDS and want to recommend them. So we are both saying the same thing? I guess so. 

You probably cant see the wood for the trees here, but your own arguments and your own claims are biting you in the rear end here dude. Im not asking you for a rethink, the die is cast, but try and accept that the decision to integrate neversummer into your site quite so heavily will have consequences and will affect the perception (and maybe the full) impartiality of the site as a source of genuine and unbiased information. This is not a ludicrous accusation when you tie yourself in so tightly with one brand... and also now have a section of the forum exclusively devoted to that brand and its product.


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## ETM (Aug 11, 2009)

Fuck you can type bro! +1 to pretty much everything you said though. I like and respect most of those guys who are part of the "team" but if they wanted to influence me they had a better chance before they had their fingers in the pie so to speak. Seems the price of credability is exactly the same as the price of a ns board or two. Btw I only drink COCA COLA. Smooth COCA COLAafter a hard days riding is so refreshing!


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## Rockpen (Dec 13, 2012)

I used to be a Beaver Creek local and at first I didn't like NS cause everyone was riding them. Because of rocks on the bald spot, log sliding and general park thrashing I was averaging two boards a year, Burton, Sims, Option, etc. One of my fellow snowmakers was still ripping on a 10 year old NS and because of him I decided to give one a test spin as I was tired of always buying new boards. I tried the Premier and fell in love with the ride quality on the very first run, it was like nothing I have ever experienced before so I bought the board. Now, 10 years and over 700 days later, I still love my premier. It looks like it went to hell and back *but it's still an awesome board.* This year was the FIRST time in 10 years I actually bought a new board. (talk about saving money) I always went to a demo or two a year to try different boards (mostly other brands) but nothing ever came close to giving me the ride satisfaction or confidence that what ever board I was testing would get me out of sketchy situations like my premier has done over and over again. So this year I bought a Proto mostly cause I wanted something that was more playful and the proto is hella playful. Actually its a little bit too playful and not stable enough for me and some of the lines that I ride soooooooo, I'm back on my 10 year old premier and will save the Proto for when we start to teach my 2 year old son how to ski, then snowboard. I think if I was back in Beaver Creek the Proto would be awesome but here in the Alps its out of its element.
I prefer big lines, maching and then skating the mountain in mellower terrain and in that order. The proto is great for skating the mountain but not much else. I'm just being honest and I wish I would have been more honest with myself when I made my purchase cause I not a park rat anymore. I should have bought another Premier or Heritage or even a Raptor. Before this gets any longer... *my point is, NS has built a reputation over the last 20 years for making bombproof boards that rides as good as they're built.* What other boards out there can last as long as a NS? Just be honest with yourself and the riding you do 90% of the time before making a purchase and never buy a board based on hype or reviews especially when those reviews comes from people who ride a different style in different terrain.

P.S 
Yes I used to take my Premier through the park all the time and still do. And I still laugh at people who say its not a good deck for boardsliding.


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## crash77 (Jan 24, 2011)

Quick question. When the "design team" reports unbiased feedback back to NS, is or will that feedback be posted on the forum? I have never owned a NS board, but I am interested in the 2014 Proto. There had to be some neg/constructive feedback to add the "harmonic dampening" (I think that's what I read it stands for). So for anybody who owns or has had a chance to ride any model Proto, what didn't you like about it?


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## Rockpen (Dec 13, 2012)

crash77 said:


> Quick question. When the "design team" reports unbiased feedback back to NS, is or will that feedback be posted on the forum? I have never owned a NS board, but I am interested in the 2014 Proto. There had to be some neg/constructive feedback to add the "harmonic dampening" (I think that's what I read it stands for). So for anybody who owns or has had a chance to ride any model Proto, what didn't you like about it?


I didnt like the fact that the 2013 model just cant handle speed. Chatter is not a problem for me but when I'm bouncing all over the place like some cowboy on a bucking horse then thats when I have a problem. In order to get more stability you really have to dig that edge into the snow which slows you down. In powder I thought it was great until I took some bigger lines. Yes I know its an "all mountain" freestyle but for me "all mountain" also means big lines and not just cruising the mountain looking for every hit.


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## Extremo (Nov 6, 2008)

BurtonAvenger said:


> Neurotic please I love baiting your ass and watching you flip out because you have no proof in anything you say. Do some research on why Corbo is riding for Echelon now, might blow your mind. Still not sure how me going "hey talk to this brand they're looking for riders" even remotely benefits me.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Wait, you baited me with an Echelon ad on your sight? That's fucking clever. 

You don't benefit? Echelon's paying you ad time to keep your whack-ass blog alive. I tried to read through a couple of your reviews but I coulnd't get through all the grammatical errors. You may have been slightly afflicted with down syndrome. It's like fucking torture. You'd think you'd at least pass 9th grade english if you planned on writing professionally. Not like you've got anything objective to say anyways. 

So your life-long man crush on TR has evolved into jumping on Kanes' dick? Still doing your spread-ass-insert-here routine huh? Hey gaiz look at my best snowboard list...wanna pay to me... gurgle gurgle gurgle...

Corbo's killing it and Mayo's on them, and he's a fucking legend out here. You think anything you say has anything to do with the legitimacy of the brands? You're out of your fucking mind. If anything their association with your phony whack-ass is going to hurt the brand. 

You're not doing anything right...just being a hypocritical doucher. Pretty much what you've always been. 

It's convienient that you hype other brands over NS and Lib and here you are 3 years ago shitting on them for patenting their RC profiles. I'm all for hyping the little guy when they're making good shit. But don't be a phony about it. You're just a fan boy. It's why you used to diss burton on SB.com. I'd fucking pay to get those transcripts.


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## Rockpen (Dec 13, 2012)

Maybe this flame war should be handled via P.M?


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## Extremo (Nov 6, 2008)

crash77 said:


> Quick question. When the "design team" reports unbiased feedback back to NS, is or will that feedback be posted on the forum? I have never owned a NS board, but I am interested in the 2014 Proto. There had to be some neg/constructive feedback to add the "harmonic dampening" (I think that's what I read it stands for). So for anybody who owns or has had a chance to ride any model Proto, what didn't you like about it?


Yup, as a member of the design team I plan on being brutally honest. Both with NS and the forum.

People need to get over this 'design team/snowboarding forum conspiracy' theory. NS approached me to test some park boards and give some feedback to improve the board and let people know what I think, which is what I plan to do. I got the product, been riding the shit out of it, and I'll give my opinion. Bottom line is I'll still be riding other brands and hyping what I like, NS or not. 

The only reason it's been kept under wraps til now is because they didn't want to start hyping next years boards before dealers could sell this years shit. I actually think the initial announcement date was too early as it was, but whatever. It was all going to be unvieled at the same time, the announcement, the reviews, the feedback, and so on. Snowolf's been working diligently to orchestrate this whole thing so it would benefit the members of the forum. But now we have ass clowns trying to de-legitimize the riders and the brand by insinuating we won't be giving honest reviews. It's funny that those who are asserting this are the ones most guilty of it themselves. 

I've been riding my boards here. If you want to know how I think they handle it, check out my review thread.


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## Extremo (Nov 6, 2008)

Rockpen said:


> Maybe this flame war should be handled via P.M?


Nope, if I'm getting called out publicly, I'm going to handle it publicly. People can decide for themselves.


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## Leo (Nov 24, 2009)

crash77 said:


> Quick question. When the "design team" reports unbiased feedback back to NS, is or will that feedback be posted on the forum? I have never owned a NS board, but I am interested in the 2014 Proto. There had to be some neg/constructive feedback to add the "harmonic dampening" (I think that's what I read it stands for). So for anybody who owns or has had a chance to ride any model Proto, what didn't you like about it?


Read my Evo review. I talked about it's limits at speed even though it is not what the board was built for. 

As for this ridiculous debate...

Look Ippy, everything you said is mostly perpetuated by riders on this forum that have absolutely nothing to do with the Design team. They may have been influenced by one of our reviews though. They went and bought their own NS and they are the ones hyping it.

Threads are created asking about NS and some of us reviewers go in there and answer as best we can. You keep mentioning that NS is being shoved down people's throats. So what? Why do you bring that up in a debate about the Design Team? That insinuates that you are referring to us. Otherwise, it is just customers hyping a brand they like. 

If you are in fact trying to suggest one of the Design Team members is "shoving" NS down people's throats, post up some evidence. I'm not telling you to do that in a manner of "I don't believe you." I'm telling you to do that so that person/those people can tone it down. 

About free gear, I've been getting free gear for over 3 years. I haven't paid for a snowboard in that amount of time. I had a K2 Turbo Dream before becoming a Design Team member. I sold it after riding the Proto. I also have a review for the TD on this forum. 

I dare not say any brand makes the best boards. All I can say is that I'm thoroughly satisfied with my NS boards. And that's the truth no matter if you believe it to be biased or not.

I'll provide you with a copy and paste of an Email Vince sent to Snowolf and myself:



> We actually encourage you and the rest of the design team to test and review other brands. It makes you look unbiased
> and will help keep you current on what other companies are doing and we can learn a lot from what you liked and disliked.
> 
> Please feel free to write reviews on other boards, ride everything and let people know.


By the way, why didn't anyone knock Snowolf for reviewing other products he got for free? Because those products aren't hyped? WiredSports hands him gear to review regularly. Why aren't you jumping on their backs? They even do regular giveaways here too. None of you are complaining about that.

I'm glad you guys aren't complaining about that other stuff. You shouldn't. WiredSports provides awesome information and is generous enough to give away boards. Maybe you all forgot that Never Summer is also on here doing giveaways. Maybe you all forgot that Never Summer has changed their graphics and base colors for you a number of times after you all complained. 

Seriously, let's just stop this nonsense. If you don't like any of this, don't pay any attention to the reviews or NS posts. Keep on suggesting the gear that you like and nevermind what others are saying.

As for me, I'm gonna continue riding gear and reviewing them regardless of the brand or whether or not I get something for free. 

And let's be real... you wouldn't turn down an opportunity like this so don't be a hypocrite.


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## crash77 (Jan 24, 2011)

Hey Extremo,

I don't have a dog in this fight. That's exactly what I'm looking for, unbiased critiques of any and all brand boards by experienced riders. Appreciate the review, I'll check it out!


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## Engage_mike (Oct 14, 2011)

MAJOR KUDOS to the OP! This has turned out to be one incredible thread...a little bit of conspiracy...a little bit of religion, some excellent back and forth...now can we have BA & Extremo sent to itheir own sub forum and watch em fight? 

(My thoughts since everyone else got to air them)
They say Word of Mouth is the strongest form of advertisement...they say 1 bad review spreads a wild fire to at least 7 others which in turn could kill a company and its reputation...If something is not as advertised...good luck getting past your 2nd year of business.

The whole decision being made not to purchase a NS board based on a persons shirt....I agree with the statement that while at work..we absolutely represent our company by the way we handle ourselves however, I don't agree with the way that people have become SOOO ridiculously touchy! It goes back to the Bu//$#!+ with Chik Fil A...the founder himself has a PERSONAL belief that same sex marriage is wrong...and yet the whole gay community wants to boycott AMAZING chicken sandwiches and compromise tens of thousands jobs because he has his PERSONAL beliefs... 

This forum is fantastic...I love everyone's feed back and I enjoy reading all the threads on How To, I love seeing peoples home videos, I love reading about all the new lines dropping each year, This forum definitely is doing what it was created to do...get a community with a common interest together. (This post makes me think about one of my original posts, "Why is Burton so hated here?" that fire was burning for 20 pages  )
HAPPY POSTING ALL!


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## Engage_mike (Oct 14, 2011)

WAIT! One more thought....

I purchased my NS based on graphics ;-P I happen to love the graphics of Neversummer...their logo is pretty sick, and at the same time they look like a high end piece of brilliance....but I'm a simple guy..I also love the Jones Carbon and the Arbors with the plain wood look...Keep all that cartoonish sh*t away from me, I am a fan of Symmetry and timeless looks...not the hot fad of the moment :dunno:


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## ippy (Mar 11, 2010)

This whole discussion has been built around the words "neversummer shoved down your throat". First SW tried to add in some kind of causal chain that im implying an orchestrated bias. When i showed you its not the case, but the forums, now youre trying to argue that secretly by the dint of posting it on a thread (a thread referring to the forums neversummer bias) that it was an easy insinuation to arrive at. Its not. Youre making it up. I told you what i said, ive clarified it. Twisting what i said to suit your own narrative is a way to DEFLECT the point, (as is asking me to provide evidence for a point i never in fact made). To be honest, the further this is going, the more uncomfortable its getting. You asked (and apparently welcome) reasonable debate on the matter, but ive been nothing but reasonable and yet keep having you guys try and put words in my mouth or make me say something so you can dismiss the point. 

Now lets get to the next point of actual bias in the very act of tying yourselves so closely to Neversummer:

There is going to be a perceptual problem of serious bias in tying yourselves so directly with neversummer. Whether or not you think you wont personally be biased, is by the by. The proof is in the eating. Having a section of the forums completely devoted to one brand pretty much makes the case in itself to be honest, but its a cheap shot... fair... but cheap. 

Your issue is how to address this in a rational, calm and reflective manner. Instead youre "orchestrating" (jsut so we're clear, this is a parodic use of the term), some kind of some kind of siege mentality. And lashing out because i had the temerity to not agree with you and was careful to articulate my points rationally and without abuse (i believe those were the terms of the discussion you guys set out in the thread announcing this?). Instead SW first built a straw man to argue against and then spent most of his post calling people who disagree with him a bunch of names. Now you, realising maybe that im right, and that i said no such thing, are trying to weedle back in this argument with some kind of Mrs Doyle line of argument: "come on, admit it! go on go on go on!" 

Just accept theres an issue here. Maybe, i dunno, follow my lead and make an argument about bias and the general incapacity for the lack of bias, and offer assurances that you guys will do your best to make it fair and open and go out of your ways to not make this a massive defining feature of the site (which youve already shown isnt the case by the way with a) the announcement, b) the section on neversummer, (cf, the point on WHY people are looking to demo neversummer boards just as an FYI) and c) the mad defensiveness that anyone could even claim that this site had a long and established connection with neversummer... er... something about boards being designed and built in consultation with people on this site... from the very blurb on the announcement. Try not to get so worked up because i disagree that tying yourself into one brand somehow helps you prove your neutrality and impartiality. 

I should stress, i choose my words very carefully, so before you leap on that last sentence again, you might want to re-read it. It doesnt mean that youll become more biased, it means it doesnt help your case that youll somehow become any less biased. 

As for whether youll become MORE biased, i leave that in the hands of time and your ability to actually slag off the boards you were consulted about in the design process. I also expect Blauvelt to trash ride and complain that his berzerker is POS. 

Really though, am i going mad? Is there none of you that actually grasps what im saying here and can articulate a balanced and thoughtful awareness of the issues this throws up in relation to the sites overriding objective (i assume) as a source of unbiased and fair information? Is no one capable of addressing this and acknowledging the complications whilst also articulating a rational and sound way of dealing with the nuance of the overriding issue? Im not being a jerk here. Theres an issue. The sites always been a bit neversummer intensive... as i say, i didnt start the thread, i contributed to it on page 9. And it was 9 pages of people saying "noooo! dont be silly!" You helped them design new boards, this has been a long standing relationship. Only now its formalized and much more in the open. Of course theres an issue. Of course you should have to defend against potential bias. Of course you should have to explain why and how its not going to impact your neutrality. Of course Neversummer should attempt to show they have no impact and will not set conditions. 

And of course the people reading those reviews should be allowed to read them with a much sharper and more cynical eye than we might have a year ago when the relationship was a little more opaque. Its not a wild point. Its pretty humdrum to be honest. 

If suddenly you guys were promoting Nitro thatd be fine. No one would bat an eyelid, in fact itd help offset a lot of the neversummer hype on these forums *lets not pretend your opinion is going to carry the same weight as joe blogs after all). Indeed you were promoting any other brand at all this wouldnt even be an issue. And i promise you this isnt hating on neversummer. I like their boards. But its the very brand thats had the most connections to this site in the last three or four years and its the very brand that seems to get the most noise on these forums. Now you have 15 or so of the loudest people on the site ready to talk all about neversummer. Come on now? Surely you can see that for a site professing its absolute neutrality, this doesnt help your case much. Whether it hurts it is to be decided, but its not helping it.


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## Extremo (Nov 6, 2008)

ippy said:


> This whole discussion has been built around the words "neversummer shoved down your throat". First SW tried to add in some kind of causal chain that im implying an orchestrated bias. When i showed you its not the case, but the forums, now youre trying to argue that secretly by the dint of posting it on a thread (a thread referring to the forums neversummer bias) that it was an easy insinuation to arrive at. Its not. Youre making it up. I told you what i said, ive clarified it. Twisting what i said to suit your own narrative is a way to DEFLECT the point, (as is asking me to provide evidence for a point i never in fact made). To be honest, the further this is going, the more uncomfortable its getting. You asked (and apparently welcome) reasonable debate on the matter, but ive been nothing but reasonable and yet keep having you guys try and put words in my mouth or make me say something so you can dismiss the point.
> 
> Now lets get to the next point of actual bias in the very act of tying yourselves so closely to Neversummer:
> 
> ...


You raise a lot of legitimate concerns, and if I were coming in here as a part time member, or the casual lurker, I'd share them as well. But don't think these concerns weren't already considered throughout the conception of this 'design team' idea. Before you make blanket assumptions about the individuals on the team, why don't you wait for our reviews and determine how legitimate each of our opinions are on a case by case basis. Who knows, maybe I'll think one of my fellow team members is completely bullshitting too. I find it a little offensive that without knowing any of us you're assuming each of our opinions are going to be influenced by a blind allegiance to the brand. If you're on the same board that I'm reviewing I welcome your opinion in my discussion thread. If you think I'm bullshitting call me out. NS is looking for honesty. They've had their brand bashed for several different reasons and instead of whining about it they've listened to what people want out of them and improved upon it.


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## 24WERD (May 9, 2012)

I just want to say that Never Summer makes excellent boards!!!

This is also a Fact outside the forum


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## Donutz (May 12, 2010)

Did you know that there's a secret conspiracy by teenage boys to get into girls' pants? Yes, it's true. Every year, millions of teenage boys meet in an undisclosed location to review, refine and create put-out lines. From old faithfuls like "If you love me..." to more recent entries like "face down ass up", all lines are actually invented by a secret think tank that distributes them through the secret teenage boy newsletter "Getting Some".

If you don't believe me, here's a simple proof: Just watch any teenage boy, anywhere, any time, when he's with a girl. THEY'RE ALL USING THE SAME LINES! THEY'RE ALL USING THE SAME TECHNIQUES! How can this be coincidence? It MUST be a conspiracy!

Seriously folks, just because everyone's walking in the same direction doesn't mean there's a consipiracy. 'Conspiracy' has a very specific meaning, and requires secret conversations and strategy sessions at minimum. No one so far has come up with anything more than "they're all using the same lines" to "prove" the existance of a conspiracy.

Ultimately, there's a lot of NS fanboyism for the same reason there's a lot of Burton hateboyism. Because people pick up on commonly expressed attitudes and repeat them because it makes them sound like an insider. NS has a number of attributes that make it a natural for fanboyism:

1) The boards are consistently good (not BEST, just GOOD)
2) The graphics are consistently something that an adult wouldn't be embarrassed to be seen on.
3) They're "made in the USA", which let's face it, is important to a lot of people.

Invoking a conspiracy theory to explain this is just multiplying complexities unnecessarily. But feel free, as long as it doesn't get personal. This is after all a discussion forum.


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## BeachLegoGal (Jan 11, 2013)

Donutz said:


> to more recent entries like "face down ass up"



This just made my day! :laugh:


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## Leo (Nov 24, 2009)

You're putting words in MY mouth now Ippy. I didn't say you were accusing us of anything. But when you make the assertions that you do in a debate about the design team, you INSINUATE that the design team members are acting in a manner that is highly biased. Yes, of course there will be some bias, but it's not as crazy as you think. A number of us have already told you guys numerous times that the possible bias is offset by these facts:

1) Some of us work in the Snowboard industry which means we have access to much more than free Never Summer. This fact is something you seem to ignore in all of your ranting.

2) Many of the Design team members were already customers of NS. Look at Triple8Sol. The guy owned multiple NS boards and I even remember him purchasing them for friends. 

3) Never Summer has proven to you guys that they take feedback. Go look at the 2014 Never Summer thread. They changed the cobra graphics again this year due to forum feedback. 

This is what they ultimately want. Good feedback bad or good. But of course there is marketing behind it as well. They are still a business after all. It's not like they are some random company coming here to buy people out. They aren't giving boards to random people. They picked the most vocal of us? Well of course they did. We are the ones that constantly review products and help with gear questions. But you see, there are quite a few on the team that barely even post and give advice even less. Do you seriously recognize all the names on the design team as being loud? I personally didn't even know who Shredler was. Fatbob isn't known for reviews on this forum.

So when you say they picked the loudest members, you're really only talking about Me, Snowolf, and Extremo. Triple8Sol too maybe... 

Again, you guys are free to think whatever you want. Obviously we can't convince everyone. I have provided you with as much honest information as I could including copying and pasting an email from Vince. 

And since you keep ignoring fact 1... Let me reiterate that NS is not the only product that I have access to for free. So tell me again how I can possibly be biased? Same goes for others on this team. Triple8, how can he possibly be biased just from this design team subject? He BOUGHT many NS boards prior to this. If he's biased, it's from making purchases out if his own pocket.

Another fact you ignored... This forum had plenty NS hype long before the design team that started with Wolf and Myself. You complain now because they included more members? Why? What's the point?

And please, stop insulting my intelligence. You've become quite condescending. No need for that nonsense.


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## poutanen (Dec 22, 2011)

I was looking at NS during a recent board purchase. I decided on something else because they didn't have a model that appealed to me, but the quality and service reputation seems good.

Here's the one problem I have: My GF came on this form a couple months back to ask about board advice. She specifically said she was looking for a mainly cambered deck.

Somebody suggested a NS Lotus. :dunno: It's like they didn't even read the thread or care, somebody was asking about a womens board and they just suggested a NS. I do see that in a lot of board suggestion threads too. I happen to like certain brands more than others, but I'll usually try to suggest a few different options from different brands.

It helps keep the fanboyism in check! :laugh:


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## racer357 (Feb 3, 2011)

CK93 said:


> I was actually getting ready to buy a Never Summer until I went to a demo they had at Keystone. I loved the idea of supporting a local company. Two things changed my mind. The first guy I dealt with was really cool. He took the time to explain their boards to me and got me set up for a demo. When I came back from a few runs, it totally changed. The people there were ignorant A$$holes. They acted like they were above everybody else. They were treating other people who where there like dirt. Rolling eyes, ignoring and treating them like there were stupid. It really turned me off to how they could be acting like that.
> 
> The second reason is a shirt one of the guys was wearing. All of the employees were wearing a NS shirt except one. He was wearing a shirt that was religion bashing. Now I have no issues with people wearing any shirt, but wear it where it is appropriate. While he was there, he is acting as an ambassador to the company. That tells me that the company condones that type of views because he was representing Never Summer.
> 
> ...


I would almost bet you that the reps you are so unhappy about were from Christy's, Keystone sports, or one of the other shops there at the base of the mountain that sells never summer. Neversummer probably acquired them to help with the demo and they weren't smart enough to put their best foot forward. Still a poor reflection on NS though. 

I have also owned Burton, Gnu, and K2 Products, and I have found my NS stuff to be more durable and performs well for me. A friend of mne just bought a lib tech, both of us have flow bindings so we switched rides for a couple hours. After this experience, I will stick with my SL. The lib tech didn't do anything bad. The SL just does it better.


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## Ocho (Mar 13, 2011)

My reply was kicked out when the thread got locked. Although posts since have taken a different direction since, I'm still going to add it for what it's worth:



CK93 said:


> Yeah if I could go back and delete my post--I would :huh:


I think what you were saying is that you found his attire to be unprofessional?



ARSENALFAN said:


> Why? I agree with your post. The guy shouldn't have been wearing a shirt like that while representing the company. :thumbsup:


That's how I see it.

Like it or not, appearances MATTER in business. It doesn't so much matter (to me, at least) that the shirt was religious or not, it's that it wasn't _professional_. Would anyone feel secure in doing business with, say a lawyer, if they walked into the office for a consult to find him in a tank top and old jeans? Probably not so much. Sucks, but it's a valid reality.

As a business owner, I am _acutely_ aware how my appearance influences not only _potential_ clients, but existing clientele as well. Frankly, I could wear whatever I please. My business, my rules. And I am damn good at what I do. 

However. I am sensitive to the fact that my clients and target market will base their perception of me AND my work based (in part) on my appearance. What I wear in my personal time is different from what I wear when representing my business. Granted, my industry is "stuffy" compared to the snowboarding industry but still.

Bottom line: I'm a walking advertisement for my company. I refuse to do a shotty ad.

Oh - and when I've been at industry related events OR helping out another professional - similar to a tent volunteer as mentioned in this thread - I still maintain my professional image. It's a representation of myself and the other pro.

As for the big announcement, as long as being a neversummer owner is not a requirement for being a member here, I don't have much of a problem with it :laugh: I find it to be a bit odd atm, but we'll see how it goes. 

I DO appreciate how companies like Rome, Union, WiredSport, Burton(bindings), and NS (vince) are active here on the forum, however :thumbsup:


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## sangsters (Jan 13, 2010)

poutanen said:


> I was looking at NS during a recent board purchase. I decided on something else because they didn't have a model that appealed to me, but the quality and service reputation seems good.
> 
> Here's the one problem I have: My GF came on this form a couple months back to ask about board advice. She specifically said she was looking for a mainly cambered deck.
> 
> ...


The issue of people not actually reading a post before commenting is pretty much the SOP on most notice boards. In my experience that's where the fanboy stuff comes in. Fanboys are fanboys and that's just not going to change. Anyone able to get onto the interwebs ought to know the difference between a knowledgeable poster and a fanboy. And the person who suggested a Lotus when you were looking for a cambered deck just proves the point.


While I've heard positive things about NS from the people who are now on the design team (the thread of which I only first noticed today) I've honestly never taken note of any of them really *pushing* NS.

I ride a Proto CT because I'd heard of NS on this board and randomly found myself at a demo day. I'd never even heard of the board. Rode it, loved it. Bought it. Returned it. Bought the black one because, damn...

If anything the mods/admins putting up a thread specifically noting who is on the design team ought to address most of the concerns in this thread (rational or otherwise).

Were I a new member (as opposed to just being a noob) I have a place to find out who is on board (so to speak) with NS and I could then view their posts in that light.


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## Ocho (Mar 13, 2011)

Leo said:


> You're putting words in MY mouth now Ippy. I didn't say you were accusing us of anything. But when you make the assertions that you do in a debate about the design team, you INSINUATE that the design team members are acting in a manner that is highly biased. Yes, of course there will be some bias, but it's not as crazy as you think. A number of us have already told you guys numerous times that the possible bias is offset by these facts:
> 
> 1) Some of us work in the Snowboard industry which means we have access to much more than free Never Summer. This fact is something you seem to ignore in all of your ranting.
> 
> ...


Leo (or anyone) - the reason you didn't know who *Shredler* was is because she _just_ joined. As did:

*wassupeli
karkis
Bear5001*


That makes FOUR new sbf/NS design team members joining here during the recent time of Dec '12 and Jan '13. It does seem suspect when considered that way.


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## Leo (Nov 24, 2009)

EatRideSleep said:


> Leo (or anyone) - the reason you didn't know who *Shredler* was is because she _just_ joined. As did:
> 
> *wassupeli
> karkis
> ...


Why is that suspect?

They were recruited for their riding style, where they ride, and their experience. They aren't regular members here as you pointed out. Even in the short time they joined here, did they post much? Are they hyping NS? Are they showing heavy bias? That is what the debate is about right?

So again, why is this suspect? They'll post a review and that'll probably be the extent of it. They don't even post in our group thread.

People are overreacting. 


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## racer357 (Feb 3, 2011)

over reacting? I am pissed because I am not on the team... LOL I mean seriously, there has to be a spot for a 40 year old, slightly out of shape Indiana resident with a proclivity for testing his helmet and ass pads at least as much as he is standing on the board.


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## Leo (Nov 24, 2009)

What about dream pow? Is he going into threads an pushing NS without merit? How about NWBoarder and MysticFalcon? 

I really don't see where some of you are coming up with these assertions. So far, everything I've been hearing is being committed by other members. Members that bought NS boards. This has nothing to do with the Design Team. This is pre-existing hype from people who purchased and rode NS boards.

Look, I don't have a problem if you disagree with this particular move from NS. What I have a problem with is people making false assumptions about Design Team members. 




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## binarypie (Nov 29, 2009)

My point of view:

Every single snowboard company in the world has a bunch of randoms that get free / discount gear. They all rep their companies to varying degrees. 

I take internet opinions worth a grain of salt. Unless I can ride with the person I have no idea how they compare with my skill level and experience. 

Half of the riders on this list ride very different terrain than I. Others ride a lot less than I do. So their opinions, while valid, may not apply to me.

However, the only thing I strongly believe in is full disclosure. If you are getting compensated in any way for something. You need to discolose that fact.

I'm not saying anyone on this list would be biased in a review. Hopefully they'll still point out some of the flaws in the never summer line up. Hopefully never summer wont freak out and muzzle them. 

As long as they say "Hey I'm an official reviewer for never summer here is what I think about this board" we are all good


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## Leo (Nov 24, 2009)

Also, to play a little bit of a victim role...

This is my passion. I was handed an opportunity and welcomed it. I was reviewing boards anyway.

There's the kicker. I CHOOSE to spend my time on products and post my thoughts online. I CHOOSE to help riders anyway I can with the best of my knowledge. I don't make a living off this sport. If I don't get free boards from NS, I'll get them from work and other connects. 

So when I'm spending my time trying to honestly provide help here and get falsely accused of my intents, I'm gonna lash out.

It's all good though. I don't do this for the haters. I pride myself on having helped a ton of riders here make a purchase they were happy with. Yea, not all were pleased, but that's a risk we take with Internet reviews.

I'm glad to be helping Never Summer improve their line. They are a solid company. Call me biased for that comment if you want.


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## Ocho (Mar 13, 2011)

Leo said:


> Why is that suspect?
> 
> They were recruited for their riding style, where they ride, and their experience. They aren't regular members here as you pointed out. Even in the short time they joined here, did they post much? Are they hyping NS? Are they showing heavy bias? That is what the debate is about right?
> 
> ...


Leo, my main point was the reason you (and many of us) had never heard of them before is because they just joined. Not an issue; I get it. Why wouldn't the design team be members here? Keeping them all accessible and in one place makes sense. Of course they would need to be members here for that to happen.

The reason it might seem suspect is because they are new here AND affiliated with NS. Their credentials are not in question, nor is the decision to have them on the team.

BUT, it's not _too_ far off from a member coming on here with a low post count and having affiliation with a product. Except they often get shit for it and have to earn their merit as a member before taken seriously.

I have not suggested the new sbf/NS members have _done_ anything suspect. I'm saying it might _appear_ to be suspect because we've never heard from them before. The rest of you - I'll say congratulations. You all have had a presence here prior, so that's different.

I certainly hope you don't think I am overreacting. Honestly I really am not bothered either way. Just giving an opinion on how it might be perceived. It also doesn't come across well when people appear to be hostile about it all. That goes for both sides of the argument.


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## binarypie (Nov 29, 2009)

EatRideSleep said:


> Leo, my main point was the reason you (and many of us) had never heard of them before is because they just joined. Not an issue; I get it. Why wouldn't the design team be members here? Keeping them all accessible and in one place makes sense. Of course they would need to be members here for that to happen.
> 
> The reason it might seem suspect is because they are new here AND affiliated with NS. Their credentials are not in question, nor is the decision to have them on the team.
> 
> ...


ERS,

The business side of this is that never summer is probably paying vertical sports for that board.

Next they create a team to live in that board and generate content.

This is basically an old-school version of social marketing. 

You see this all the time in the auto-forums.


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## Ocho (Mar 13, 2011)

binarypie said:


> ERS,
> 
> The business side of this is that never summer is probably paying vertical sports for that board.
> 
> ...


If that is the case, I hope NS is paying VS for that level of exposure. If not, I'm going to recruit a Team for my business and assemble them here!

And if that is true, then call it what it is: Advertising.

Which is FINE. If it's marketing using an unbiased test team, design team, whatever it's fine. But call it what it is then if it's not what it appears to be. 

I have to say the hostility in responses is NOT helping their cause imo.


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## MarshallV82 (Apr 6, 2011)

I decided on a NS before I even joined this site. 

I like the low key graphics and the durability of the boards. The only thing I dislike about NS is all the boards feel heavier than the competition. It really does not affect my riding though.
I still ride my 09 Burton Supermodel a lot too.. I would of went with a new one but the ICS system is retarded (Not so much the system, but the fact that you have to pay extra for EST Bindings, they're pulling some Apple shit on us! :thumbsdown

I don't think anyone is really hyping it up, I think it has a lot to with with the age of the forum members as someone else stated. I've seen all those guys rave over other boards.


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## binarypie (Nov 29, 2009)

Snowolf said:


> Those four members were hand picked by ME based on MY personal experience with them as riders and industry professionals. I asked them to become members here to post their reviews for the benefit of YOU the members. I have my own website that I can easily use and not put up with this whiny crybaby bullshit. These people are proving YOU a service and before they have posted their first review, you are shitting all over them.
> 
> What is ironic is that for all the tinfoil hat conspiracy kook whining and accusing you are all doing, so far the only "shoving down throats" or attempted silencing I see going on is from you people attempting to shut up the people who want to give reviews. Show me one single thread where any supporter of Neversummer has attempted to silence the voices of other brands.


Politically it is very hard to do something like what you guys are accomplishing without asking the community first.

If it had gone something like this.

"Hey SBF we want to assemble a team of riders from your community to represent NS and help us design better products"

You would have had a much better response.


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## redlude97 (Jan 9, 2008)

binarypie said:


> Politically it is very hard to do something like what you guys are accomplishing without asking the community first.
> 
> If it had gone something like this.
> 
> ...


Have you been on other forums? This shit happens all the time.


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## Ocho (Mar 13, 2011)

Snowolf said:


> Those four members were hand picked by ME based on MY personal experience with them as riders and industry professionals. I asked them to become members here to post their reviews for the benefit of YOU the members. I have my own website that I can easily use and not put up with this whiny crybaby bullshit. These people are proving YOU a service and before they have posted their first review, you are shitting all over them.
> 
> What is ironic is that for all the tinfoil hat conspiracy kook whining and accusing you are all doing, so far the only "shoving down throats" or attempted silencing I see going on is from you people attempting to shut up the people who want to give reviews. Show me one single thread where any supporter of Neversummer has attempted to silence the voices of other brands.


Hang on. Snowolf, I'm not sure if you're directing most of that at me but as I said in earlier posts, it has nothing to do with why they were chosen. I congratulate you and other pre-SBF/NSDT members. I'm trying to be _helpful_ to you ALL by expressing my opinion on how it might appear. That's all. No whiny cry baby over here! And, I'm certainly not "shitting all over them." I don't even know who they are yet. 

I will question how exactly their service benefits ME as a forum member to have yet even _more_ exposure for a brand I may not be interested in on a forum where the brand is already heavily peppered throughout. At this point, I have more knowledge of NS than I ever was interested in knowing. Which is FINE. I enjoy learning new things. And I appreciate the time members take to respond and post their personal opinions and reviews on different gear.

But if you want to know what would help out other members here including myself? A SBF Women's Board Testing Review Team


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## Extremo (Nov 6, 2008)

EatRideSleep said:


> And if that is true, then call it what it is: Advertising.
> 
> Which is FINE. If it's marketing using an unbiased test team, design team, whatever it's fine. But call it what it is then if it's not what it appears to be.
> 
> I have to say the hostility in responses is NOT helping their cause imo.


It's not advertising, it's exposure. Neversummer isn't asking me to sell their boards. They're asking me to give them, and you, an honest opinion. I can't speak for the other design team members, but that is what I plan on doing. 

I would have never stepped foot on a Never Summer board because they have never appealed to me. But now they're making a solid effort to develop their park/freestyle boards the same way they've done with their big mountain stuff. My plan is to ride the boards, figure out what they need to get rid of, what they need to keep, and what they need to add, and I'll share that with everyone. My opinion doesn't trump anyones. If someone's got something to add about a product I'm on, anyone is welcome to chime in.


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## Varza (Jan 6, 2013)

EatRideSleep said:


> But if you want to know what would help out other members here including myself? *A SBF Women's Board Testing Review Team *


Oh, that would be sweeeeet!  I had a bit of a hard time researching women's boards, since I read (on here I think it was) that some are just "men's boards sized down", and as such don't work quite as well for a lady as a board that was specifically design with her in mind.

Sorry, off-topic. I don't want to be a part of this :storm: It is what it is. Carry on.


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## poutanen (Dec 22, 2011)

EatRideSleep said:


> But if you want to know what would help out other members here including myself? A SBF Women's Board Testing Review Team


+1!!! I will say that unbiased reviews are excellent. We need more of them in general. I find this forum somewhat like tripadvisor. I post reviews of stuff I buy, in the hopes that it'll help other people make a decision, and in turn I hope to get the same help back.

Do I give a shit if anybody else buys a Burton or a Virus after I've wrote something positive about them? Nope. I don't get a cent out of it, or free gear, or anything. I just hope to inspire other people to write reviews of their gear.



binarypie said:


> Politically it is very hard to do something like what you guys are accomplishing without asking the community first.
> 
> If it had gone something like this.
> 
> "Hey SBF we want to assemble a team of riders from your community to represent NS and help us design better products"


This is a dictatorship, not a democracy! And I am apparently not part of the politburo ... :laugh:


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## Leo (Nov 24, 2009)

I'm not singling you out or being hostile Eat. I'm not being hostile to anyone. Actually, the reverse is true in my mind. I'm getting hostility as a Design Team member.

Countless comments insinuating that we are going to biased because of free gear. Yet over and over my point is ignored that myself and others have access to other free gear and have had that access for quite some time. The other point being ignored that a lot of the other team members were pre-existing NS customers.

I do agree some bias will result. That's human nature and you can't knock anyone for that. You even have bias as a person who purchases a product because now you have to deal with the fact that you spent a good chunk of change on the product. In fact, it could be argued that people who pay for their gear are much more prone to bias. Which actually supports my prior point that the NS hype is from customers, not the Design Team or NS themselves. 

Hopefully some of you can understand this and still treat our reviews like you did before we became a part of the NS Design Team.

By the way Eat, I'll happily join your review team so go on ahead and send me some gear.


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## Leo (Nov 24, 2009)

binarypie said:


> Politically it is very hard to do something like what you guys are accomplishing without asking the community first.
> 
> If it had gone something like this.
> 
> ...


This is what happened. The riders were messaged with something very similar to that. 

You really expect NS or any other company to make a public post about it? How much spam and PMing do you think would result with people begging to be a tester? 

Be real about this Binary. 

NS reached out to members of this community privately and for good reason. 

Then NS wanted to make the announcement of this endeavor, but people like YOU had to leak the post before-hand. That obviously made things look shady to outsiders which is why that thread was made visible shortly after your leak.


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## Ocho (Mar 13, 2011)

Extremo said:


> It's not advertising, it's exposure. Neversummer isn't asking me to sell their boards. They're asking me to give them, and you, an honest opinion. I can't speak for the other design team members, but that is what I plan on doing.
> 
> I would have never stepped foot on a Never Summer board because they have never appealed to me. But now they're making a solid effort to develop their park/freestyle boards the same way they've done with their big mountain stuff. My plan is to ride the boards, figure out what they need to get rid of, what they need to keep, and what they need to add. And my opinion doesn't trump anyones. If someone's got something to add about a product I'm on, anyone is welcome to chime in.


I get it. Like I said, I really don't have a problem with it. It just seems odd that one brand would have an official sbf related presence/entity and some raising of eyebrows is to be expected. 

This level of exposure is smart _advertising_. No denying that. Again, not a problem. NS might not be asking you, Extremo, to "sell" their boards. But every post, comment, etc on the brand will benefit the brand in the end. Whether their intent is to bring a better product to the industry or generate talk then cash out in the end doesn't really matter when it comes to exposure. It appears the intent of NSDT is the former, which is solid. But even bad press is good press as it's said. I commend NS for a brilliant exposure strategy. Very smart :thumbsup:


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## Rockpen (Dec 13, 2012)

Insert Cartman voice

Screw you guys, I'm going to Unity.


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## seriouscat (Jan 23, 2012)

Snowolf said:


> I made this decision and I stand by it. You people have a choice to make; either accept it and give it a chance to work or leave. I will say this however, just as we closed the politics section because the bickering became overly problematic, *with 2 clicks of the mouse, we can disable the entire equipment section so that no one reviews ANY board so its fair. *Keep pushing the issue and trying to silence honest review and that is exactly what will happen.


Sorry wolf I am going to disagree. As a bystander who could care less about any of the previous post above, I would say your point there is completely invalid. 

Yes it is a private forum. But if vertical sports is interested in this as a business, then shutting down equipment review is equivalent to suicide. Political forums (which I never did visit) serves no purpose other than a traffic generator. Shutting down equipment reviews, and it more than halves my interest as a member to be here.


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## binarypie (Nov 29, 2009)

Leo said:


> This is what happened. The riders were messaged with something very similar to that.
> 
> You really expect NS or any other company to make a public post about it? How much spam and PMing do you think would result with people begging to be a tester?
> 
> ...


Yeah because I'm the only person on this forum who clicks "New Posts" at the top of the page?

Although, I will admit I'm the only one who probably has google alerts around these brands and others despite the fact I'm not a blogger.


Oh and lets be real.

A public posting claiming "we are forming a team" is very different than "PM: hey scott we want you to hand pick riders for our super secret dev team" ... 

If you did the first then the second. You would be just fine and no one would be pissed at you.


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## SimonB (Oct 13, 2010)

Leo said:


> Then NS wanted to make the announcement of this endeavor, but people like YOU had to leak the post before-hand. That obviously made things look shady to outsiders which is why that thread was made visible shortly after your leak.


To be honest, he just posted a link to a thread which I (and most likely others) had access to since Vince's first post in it. It's not like he did any kind of hacking.

I personnally think the Design Team is s good idea.

Maybe you should talk Burton into having its design team and section on the forum... That would even things out


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## buggravy (Feb 19, 2008)

Leo said:


> Then NS wanted to make the announcement of this endeavor, but people like YOU had to leak the post before-hand. That obviously made things look shady to outsiders which is why that thread was made visible shortly after your leak.


I don't get the "leak" thing. I've been seeing the Design Team post for days, every time I log on, and thought this had been officially announced last week.


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## Ocho (Mar 13, 2011)

Leo said:


> I'm not singling you out or being hostile Eat. I'm not being hostile to anyone. Actually, the reverse is true in my mind. I'm getting hostility as a Design Team member.
> 
> Countless comments insinuating that we are going to biased because of free gear. Yet over and over my point is ignored that myself and others have access to other free gear and have had that access for quite some time. The other point being ignored that a lot of the other team members were pre-existing NS customers.
> 
> ...


Okay cool, Leo, thanks. I understand you're passionate yet sensitive about being viewed as biased when your bias is a natural type that we all have to some degree (because you genuinely like a product). I never thought the reviews will be skewed based on "free gear." I know better than that, I have good friends in the industry, and I have a pretty good feel for you all pre-DT members to know your personalities a bit. Again, congrats to you all. It must be cool to be part of something like that, so enjoy the ride.

As for being a part of _my_ review team? That depends on how much room and time you and Mrs. Leo have for 1200lb prey animals :laugh: Lmk, I'll arrange transport:thumbsup:



Snowolf said:


> You guys just don't listen do you?
> 
> *Neversummer is NOT paying for this in any way that I am aware of.* I, as an admin made the the decision to create the subforum and the responsibility for that is mine and mine alone. I invited Neversummer to use this platform because I see it as beneficial to Vertical Sports by increasing web traffic. This format allows for free and open discussion of the review process which is what Neversummer wants. They could have selected a design team and had everybody post reviews to their website and moderate those reviews as they see fit and disallow debate but they didn't.
> 
> ...





Me said:


> *If* that is the case, I hope NS is paying VS for that level of exposure. *If* not, I'm going to recruit a Team for my business and assemble them here!
> 
> And *if* that is true, then call it what it is: Advertising.
> 
> ...


"If's" are not claims or accusations. 

As for the other highlighted text, it seems hostile (to me) that some are being told "to leave" if questions or comments are made on this merger. The threat of shutting down the Equip Review forum seems a little extreme? Did I miss a post where someone was trying to silence honest reviews? Haven't gotten that sense from this thread.

Anyway. Have a fun day on your Gnu Billy Goat!


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## BrendanMorgan (Jan 22, 2013)

*Rodney King voice*

Can't we all just get along?


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## scotty100 (Apr 3, 2012)

I think this is a good idea! To me, it's all about "user-led innovation" (which I have studied quite a bit in my previous academic life...if anyone is interested read Prof Eric von Hippel at MIT for more on the subject...but I digress). I think using social media like this is a great way to connect with people who are using the boards to gain insight into continuously improving them. I would like to perhaps see some more weekend-warrior input but aside from that, can't see what the problem is. If you think it's a way to crassly sell more boards then don't read any of the threads or reviews. Simple as that.

I'd actually like to see Ride, Rome, Union, Burton etc. do the same thing on here too!


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## Extremo (Nov 6, 2008)

binarypie said:


> Yeah because I'm the only person on this forum who clicks "New Posts" at the top of the page?
> 
> Although, I will admit I'm the only one who probably has google alerts around these brands and others despite the fact I'm not a blogger.
> 
> ...


Sorry dude, I don't know you from a hole in the wall so don't be offended by this. I disagree. That thread was locked and supposed to be off the forum. How people were seeing it I have no idea, because I wasn't. 

Like I said previously, they wanted to get us time on the boards so we could start taking notes for our reviews while at the same time not having people hounding us about next years product while this years were still in stores. I don't see what you're not getting here.


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## Leo (Nov 24, 2009)

Yea, seems the leak issue is not such a leak after all. It certainly wasn't supposed to be visible.

But my point stands about making a public post asking for permission to create a focus group (which is what this boils down to being). 

Again, what's so wrong about the private method used to pick DT members? That was what Wolf's new position on the DY entailed. It used to be Vince reaching out to me and others. Now he has some of that load taken off his hands and into Wolf's.

The fact still remains, quite a few existing members on this forum were selected and asked if they would like to be a part of the team. They all had a choice to say no.

What would have been different in a public announcement? They still would have selected the same group except they would have had to deal with spam and lots of it.

Please don't act ignorant Binary. You and I both know either outcome would still have created this same drama-laden result.

What is your issue anyway bud? Why are you so adamant about this subject? Can't say I'm used to you being this way.


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## Leo (Nov 24, 2009)

By the way Eat...

Does this mean I could review a tiger????? Or gasp... A whale?


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## The Intern (Feb 24, 2011)

My quick 2 cents...

1) Free product will ALWAYS influence somebodies opinions/bias. That's just a fact of life. If you disagree you are just being ignorant. You may not even be doing it on purpose, but subconsciously things are skewed.

2) Tact. Both sides of this argument have used very little tact in the way opinions have been expressed. The way i read this thread it came off as though the "Design Team" members came off with a sense of entitlement because of their fortunate situation. That is not going to sit well with the casual reader. Tact should also be used in recommendations of gear to those searching for answers to questions. The whole "shoving NS down people's throats" way of doing it is not tactful. Again, to the casual reader that is exactly what most of this forum does.

3) Reviews to this forum are completely worthless, period. One man's junk is another man's treasure. There are infinite variables to each and every persons thoughts on a specific peace of equipment. Reviews (or feedback) to a company alone is/can be beneficial, thus part of the role of the "Design Team".

4) Kind of unrelated to the actual topic at hand, but internet forums have just gotten out of hand.


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## The Intern (Feb 24, 2011)

Extremeo said:


> Like I said previously, they wanted to get us time on the boards so we could start taking notes for our reviews while at the same time not having people hounding us about next years product while this years were still in stores. I don't see what you're not getting here.


If this is really an argument you are going to make then you should not have been mentioning or posting pics of the 2014 gear until you were ready to do your reviews.


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## legallyillegal (Oct 6, 2008)

what the fuck people

who gives a fuck


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## Extremo (Nov 6, 2008)

The Intern said:


> If this is really an argument you are going to make then you should not have been mentioning or posting pics of the 2014 gear until you were ready to do your reviews.


I didn't post shit. Noone but the team even new I was on a never summer. I was waiting until my full review to post anything.


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## cocolulu (Jan 21, 2011)

I knowwwwww this may be unpopular, but there are two common ways to silence (or at least, reduce) criticism over this:

1. Pay retail price for the board, or
2. Return the board after a review period

There's a lot of equipment review websites that have similar 'no net benefit' policies to ward of criticisms of funding biases.

But really, if the testers say that they can be objective to the best of their ability, that's good enough for me. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, and everyone has biases, and we just try to minimize them, acknowledge them, and so forth. People reading the reviews have every ability to be skeptical, so it's not like people HAVE to subscribe to the reviews written.

I just think that both Never Summer and the testers are honestly trying to do something positive.


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## Leo (Nov 24, 2009)

The Intern makes a valiant return.

The same guy who ripped on me for no apparent reason then got called out for his own error telling me I'm not being tactful? Oh, right, you trashed me on two different forums for nothing. I respect the shit out of BA, but seriously, you can go swallow one you cronie. The only person that acted entitled here is YOU. This is me losing my tact now. Got a problem with it? Tough fucking turtle shit.

I'm not entitled to crap nor do I ever act like something I'm not. I wouldn't be shocked if ALL of you were better riders than me. 

As for your statement of reviews not meaning a thing due to variables? What's interesting is when all these varied reviews start having points of agreement across the board. If the majority of reviewers, no matter how different their style, say that a board lacks edge hold... Something gives don't you think?

But why am I telling this to "The Intern"? He knows it all already.


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## The Intern (Feb 24, 2011)

Leo said:


> The Intern makes a valiant return.
> 
> The same guy who ripped on me for no apparent reason then got called out for his own error telling me I'm not being tactful? Oh, right, you trashed me on two different forums for nothing. I respect the shit out of BA, but seriously, you can go swallow one you cronie. The only person that acted entitled here is YOU. This is me losing my tact now. Got a problem with it? Tough fucking turtle shit.
> 
> ...



Easy. I did not call you out here right now. No need to get so defensive over some internet exchange that happened some 2 years ago. I honestly don't remember the specific exchange we may have had, and quite frankly i could care less as that is water under the bridge. So if you are still upset i apologize. A lot of things have changed over the last couple years.


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## Extremo (Nov 6, 2008)

The Intern said:


> My quick 2 cents...
> 
> 1) Free product will ALWAYS influence somebodies opinions/bias. That's just a fact of life. If you disagree you are just being ignorant. You may not even be doing it on purpose, but subconsciously things are skewed.
> 
> ...


I missed this. What I just interpreted is free product will always influence your opinion. Sorry you can't be objective. Assuming everyone has this problem is ignorant. 

Who the fuck is 'entitled'? If I weren't on a NS I'd still be riding one of my dozen other boards...it's not like I have an advantage over another snowboarder, we're both fucking snowboarding. 

Reviews are worthless says you. I could find 1000 others who think completely otherwise. Casual readers have already asserted so in this thread. I actually read all the reviews. Fuck I'm going to buy a BSOD based on a review here. 

And even though there is definitely nuance with riding style and preference of product, I'm finding I'm having very similar experiences with others who've posted about the same shit I'm riding. Almost to the same exact language I planned on using in my review. You're blowing shit way out of proportion here. I kind of feel bad you're this upset.


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## The Intern (Feb 24, 2011)

Extremo said:


> didn't post shit. Noone but the team even new I was on a never summer. I was waiting until my full review to post anything.


Well if you happened to not say anything than my apologies, it's hard to remember exactly who says what over such an expansive topic covering multiple threads.


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## The Intern (Feb 24, 2011)

Extremo said:


> I missed this. What I just interpreted is free product will always influence your opinion. Sorry you can't be objective. Assuming everyone has this problem is ignorant.
> 
> Who the fuck is 'entitled'? If I weren't on a NS I'd still be riding one of my dozen other boards...it's not like I have an advantage over another snowboarder, we're both fucking snowboarding.
> 
> ...


I'm anything but upset, believe me. 

I'm not blowing anything out of proportion. What's being blown out of proportion is that you are taking offense as though i called you out, and in no way did i do that. I just simply made a couple of blanket statements based on my opinions. 

My opinion that reviews to the general readers of the internet stands i will not sway from that.


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## binarypie (Nov 29, 2009)

Leo said:


> Yea, seems the leak issue is not such a leak after all. It certainly wasn't supposed to be visible.
> 
> But my point stands about making a public post asking for permission to create a focus group (which is what this boils down to being).
> 
> ...



Because full disclosure is a big deal. 

I'll restate this in a direct way.

I have 0 problems with the concept of the team or the people on it. They are all great riders and will give great feedback to NS. 

My only beef was the lack of full disclosure. 

That issue is now moot.

You are right. I'll drop it.

Done.

Now I'll only talk about real snowboarding or tech crap


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## BeachLegoGal (Jan 11, 2013)




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## Extremo (Nov 6, 2008)

The Intern said:


> I'm anything but upset, believe me.
> 
> I'm not blowing anything out of proportion. What's being blown out of proportion is that you are taking offense as though i called you out, and in no way did i do that. I just simply made a couple of blanket statements based on my opinions.
> 
> My opinion that reviews to the general readers of the internet stands i will not sway from that.


What you're saying is offensive. You're making blanket assertions that don't apply to me. Wait til you read the reviews before you determine who these assumptions apply to, who knows you may be right about some of them, and you'd be right to call people out for it. But at least wait until you see who's actually guilty of it.

And we don't cater to the 'general reader on the internet'. We're looking to help out people who have snowboarding backgrounds.


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## blunted_nose (Apr 26, 2012)

Bottom line: everyone is butthurt they dont get to be part of A-Team, BA is butthurt because no matter what he says, hes a creepy old dude and Never summer boards are the shit.


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## sabatoa (Jan 18, 2011)

BeachLegoGal said:


>


haha, pretty much me today.


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## The Intern (Feb 24, 2011)

Extremo said:


> What you're saying is offensive. You're making blanket assertions that don't apply to me. Wait til you read the reviews before you determine who these assumptions apply to, who knows you may be right about some of them, and you'd be right to call people out for it. But at least wait until you see who's actually guilty of it.
> 
> And we don't cater to the 'general reader on the internet'. We're looking to help out people who have snowboarding backgrounds.


If it doesn't apply to you then you should take no offense. :thumbsup:

As to who reviews cater too i will respectfully disagree. In my thought, an experienced rider will not rely on a review to make a purchasing decisions. A casual snowboarder doing their research is going to hold a review to a much higher regard. If i had to take a bet i would say that reviews get much more 
traffic from the casual rider who doesn't have an account and who found the review by typing into google.


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## Extremo (Nov 6, 2008)

The Intern said:


> If it doesn't apply to you then you should take no offense. :thumbsup:
> 
> As to who reviews cater too i will respectfully disagree. In my thought, an experienced rider will not rely on a review to make a purchasing decisions. A casual snowboarder doing their research is going to hold a review to a much higher regard. If i had to take a bet i would say that reviews get much more
> traffic from the casual rider who doesn't have an account and who found the review by typing into google.


I think a forum of riders is the only way to accurately review boards. Every company and shop has a sales pitch. I hope people who are skeptical of advertising claims will find my experiences a little more genuine and accurate.


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## Leo (Nov 24, 2009)

The Intern said:


> Easy. I did not call you out here right now. No need to get so defensive over some internet exchange that happened some 2 years ago. I honestly don't remember the specific exchange we may have had, and quite frankly i could care less as that is water under the bridge. So if you are still upset i apologize. A lot of things have changed over the last couple years.


Gotta say, I'm taken aback by your response. Nothing like I expected.

With that said, I got defensive on purpose. It was my "revenge." You disappeared shortly after our little Internet quibble so I never got the chance to properly thank you.

Anyway, I'm a non-confrontational guy. So when those few confrontations occur, I remember them. It's different when you are confrontational with hordes of strangers. Very easy to forget any individual occurrence.

I'll just let you know that what you did to me here and on EL was not cool. It was unprovoked. What seems like nothing to you was a big deal to me at the time. I was belittled by you, someone who I formerly enjoyed reading blog posts and reviews from.

So there you have it. It stuck with me as does any other confrontation in my life that doesn't get resolved.

Big props to you for not feeding into my rage just now. Respect.


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## Varza (Jan 6, 2013)

The Intern said:


> As to who reviews cater too i will respectfully disagree. In my thought, an experienced rider will not rely on a review to make a purchasing decisions. A casual snowboarder doing their research is going to hold a review to a much higher regard. If i had to take a bet i would say that reviews get much more
> traffic from the casual rider who doesn't have an account and who found the review by typing into google.


Yeah, and what's the problem with that? I'm a noob, I don't get to demo (either not all companies I might be interested in will demo in my area OR I am just unable to make it up to the mountain when they do). Reviews, when done well, help me make an informed decision. I ended up getting my first board based on various online ratings, asking people in a thread here, AND what the shop people told me about it. I am happy with it. The end.

Also, are you saying that everyone who DOES have an account here is an experienced (not casual) rider? Well I've got news for you, pal! :laugh: And what's wrong with people typing into google and finding reviews? 

I expect these people on the team to write good, thoughtful and helpful reviews. For now, I will trust them that they will be objective -- as objective as they can be, as any review carries a note of subjectivity simply because it was done by a human being. If, from reading their stuff, I find that they're not being objective, I will put less value on their reviews and maybe even call them out on that. The forums will be open for users to comment on the reviews. Again, what is the problem?

Also, the fact that these people will be able to INFLUENCE NS's design decisions will likely result in better boards for the rest of us. Gee, I tried really hard to stay out of this shitstorm, but this has been blown way out of proportion! Can we just draw a line, say we're done and whatever happens will happen? What's the big deal? Really!


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## Extremo (Nov 6, 2008)

Varza said:


> Yeah, and what's the problem with that? I'm a noob, I don't get to demo (either not all companies I might be interested in will demo in my area OR I am just unable to make it up to the mountain when they do). Reviews, when done well, help me make an informed decision. I ended up getting my first board based on various online ratings, asking people in a thread here, AND what the shop people told me about it. I am happy with it. The end.
> 
> Also, are you saying that everyone who DOES have an account here is an experienced (not casual) rider? Well I've got news for you, pal! :laugh: And what's wrong with people typing into google and finding reviews?
> 
> ...


:thumbsup: agreed.


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## gmore10 (Dec 23, 2011)

"I'm Ricky Bobby, If You Don't Chew Big Red Then F**k You!" - YouTube if you dont ride never summer than fuck you.


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## super-rad (Jan 25, 2012)

So, if another brand like Burton or Union (since they already have a presence on these boards) approached VS and wanted to do the exact same thing -- dedicated sub-forum, hand picked reviewers, etc -- would that be allowed or encouraged?


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## The Intern (Feb 24, 2011)

Varza said:


> Yeah, and what's the problem with that? I'm a noob, I don't get to demo (either not all companies I might be interested in will demo in my area OR I am just unable to make it up to the mountain when they do). Reviews, when done well, help me make an informed decision. I ended up getting my first board based on various online ratings, asking people in a thread here, AND what the shop people told me about it. I am happy with it. The end.
> 
> Also, are you saying that everyone who DOES have an account here is an experienced (not casual) rider? Well I've got news for you, pal! :laugh: And what's wrong with people typing into google and finding reviews?
> 
> ...


There is nothing wrong with that, i never said or implied there was. I'm just stating my opinion that reviews hold more merit to the casual rider/"noob" than to an experienced rider. I don't think there is anything wrong with saying that. But in reality the thoughts of someone who rides 50+ days a year and reviews a board is likely going to be drastically different after the 5 day a year rider purchases said board based on a review. 

I'm sure most people on internet forums fall into the "casual rider" category who enjoy talking gear to scratch their itch. Again, nothing wrong with that at all, i mean hell that why we all come here isn't it , too geek out a bit! And there is nothing wrong with typing into goolge for a review, we all do it for various things!

I think you are just misinterpreting what i said:thumbsup:


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## poutanen (Dec 22, 2011)

The Intern said:


> 3) Reviews to this forum are completely worthless, period. One man's junk is another man's treasure. There are infinite variables to each and every persons thoughts on a specific peace of equipment. Reviews (or feedback) to a company alone is/can be beneficial, thus part of the role of the "Design Team".
> 
> 4) Kind of unrelated to the actual topic at hand, but internet forums have just gotten out of hand.


3) So how are riders supposed to decide what boards to buy? Specs alone? Magazine tests (because they're so objective!!!!)?

4) Have just? They've always been out of hand, nothing new!



The Intern said:


> As to who reviews cater too i will respectfully disagree. In my thought, an experienced rider will not rely on a review to make a purchasing decisions. A casual snowboarder doing their research is going to hold a review to a much higher regard. If i had to take a bet i would say that reviews get much more
> traffic from the casual rider who doesn't have an account and who found the review by typing into google.


I am a 21 year veteran rider who used to compete, and I still make decisions with help from forum reviews. In fact I hold these in much higher regard than most other sources of information. As long as you read the reviews carefully, knowing who wrote them, what they were riding on, what their experience level is... Reviews ARE valuable.

Here's an "initial thoughts" review I did on a new board I bought. Not a full review but I even measured the boards and posted specs, what type of snow I was on, pros, cons, etc. http://www.snowboardingforum.com/boards/52281-virus-avalanche-flp-aft-initial-thoughts.html



The Intern said:


> I'm sure most people on internet forums fall into the "casual rider" category who enjoy talking gear to scratch their itch. Again, nothing wrong with that at all, i mean hell that why we all come here isn't it , too geek out a bit! And there is nothing wrong with typing into goolge for a review, we all do it for various things!


I think we actually have a fairly wide range here. Lots and lots of first timers or nearly first timers. Some 10 day a year people, and a good dose of 50 day a year people too...

I think we all know a review is subjective, but if you've narrowed down your choices to a couple boards based on specs alone, then look for reviews as the potential decision maker, I think that's just healthy shopping.


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## The Intern (Feb 24, 2011)

Hey if reviews work for you than good! It sounds like you know what you're doing when reading them. I would guess a majority of people don't however.
Too me, starting out in any hobby/sport you take your lumps buying gear, that's how you find out what you like or dislike. Sure reading reviews may help that first time buyer, but they won't know what they want till they actually get out there.


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## poutanen (Dec 22, 2011)

The Intern said:


> Hey if reviews work for you than good! It sounds like you know what you're doing when reading them. I would guess a majority of people don't however.
> Too me, starting out in any hobby/sport you take your lumps buying gear, that's how you find out what you like or dislike. Sure reading reviews may help that first time buyer, but they won't know what they want till they actually get out there.


Agreed... Maybe we need a thread on here about how to read reviews with a grain of salt?!?

If you took every review literally we'd all be on Lib Tech T.Rice Pros... :blink:

I think the thing is we can't force the consumer to use common sense, but we can try to put our subjective opinions out there and let people have at it! :yahoo:


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## Rockpen (Dec 13, 2012)

poutanen said:


> Agreed... Maybe we need a thread on here about how to read reviews with a grain of salt?!?
> 
> If you took every review literally we'd all be on Lib Tech T.Rice Pros... :blink:
> 
> I think the thing is we can't force the consumer to use common sense, but we can try to put our subjective opinions out there and let people have at it! :yahoo:



I wish I would of taken a grain of salt instead of a pound of weed. Next time I dont give a damn what reviewers here or anywhere say. I'm getting the stiffest, dampest damn NS board they make. Then bitch that its too stiff and doesnt have enough pop :laugh:


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## Leo (Nov 24, 2009)

super-rad said:


> So, if another brand like Burton or Union (since they already have a presence on these boards) approached VS and wanted to do the exact same thing -- dedicated sub-forum, hand picked reviewers, etc -- would that be allowed or encouraged?


Why not? In actuality, that would be awesome. You'd have the popular brands pre-filtered for you. There are some section this forum could condense or even get rid of in my opinion to make room. 

Or have a review section with sub-sections for brand specific ones.


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## crash77 (Jan 24, 2011)

Leo said:


> Why not? In actuality, that would be awesome. You'd have the popular brands pre-filtered for you. There are some section this forum could condense or even get rid of in my opinion to make room.
> 
> Or have a review section with sub-sections for brand specific ones.
> 
> ...


That would be an excellent idea...here that Wolf!?:thumbsup:


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## ippy (Mar 11, 2010)

Leo said:


> You're putting words in MY mouth now Ippy. I didn't say you were accusing us of anything. But when you make the assertions that you do in a debate about the design team, you INSINUATE that the design team members are acting in a manner that is highly biased. Yes, of course there will be some bias, but it's not as crazy as you think. A number of us have already told you guys numerous times that the possible bias is offset by these facts:
> ...
> And since you keep ignoring fact 1... Let me reiterate that NS is not the only product that I have access to for free. So tell me again how I can possibly be biased? Same goes for others on this team. Triple8, how can he possibly be biased just from this design team subject? He BOUGHT many NS boards prior to this. If he's biased, it's from making purchases out if his own pocket.
> 
> ...


Please keep the personal attacks out of it, you started off okay, but as it went on it started getting a touch personal. Ive only singled out specific people (yourself and snowolf) when you have made a claim against me i found to be incorrect (or abusive). Ive not descended into personal attacks, and have written a great deal already on the matter which would be opportunity enough to "rant" or make personal attacks. Perhaps we should attack the points and not the person? Maybe you'll consider this 'condescending' as well, but i dont see how asking for more rational discussion, and less bickering and name calling is "condescending". Lets just attack the points and not the assumed character of the people making them. Agreed?

And in that spirit, let me attack this one point:

You keep suggesting that im ignoring the point that you guys get hook ups from other brands. But let me be very clear on this.

I have not sad at any point that the people involved in this design team will be biased. This is not my point. Ive been very careful in fact to not say this. I also have great fondness for killclimbz for the work he does in his own free time to educate people on backcountry safety, so I would never call his integrity into question. 

But since youre asking me directly, honestly, i dont think you can. I however AWAIT to be proven wrong. This is a very important distinction. I dont think you can be unbiased whilst being offered hookups and being involved in teh design and manufature of a board. BUT I am willing to be proven wrong. 

But this wont be done by you TELLING me before hand that you're unbiased, it will be instead be demonstrated by your future actions fully acknowledging and recognising the now extremely close ties between this website and Neversummer. It will be done by you offering similar levels of exposure to other brands and recognising where appropriate that other labels have similar if not better rides for what the [x ride] is trying to deliver. 
As i say, you all have your own biases you bring to a ride. We all do. I made the point in the first post of this whole discussion and in fact themed the entire post around this point. But those biases should mean that you're not all going to love R+C. So this will hopefully be reflected in the reviews. So again, this will be one more criteria that will demonstrate fairly your capacity for neutrality. 

However, due to the fact that i dont make my living as a fortune teller, i will hold back before i start throwing out any accusation of *personal* bias (nor do i want to put myself in a position where id have to trawl through your post history for examples of bias. Life is too short already). 
Thus, the attempt to make me say that you *personally* are biased is a straw man. And so he claim that im ignoring the counter that you get hooked up by other brands is nothing but evasion. Its not the point ive made. Its the point you've both trying to get me to make, though. I should also say, i get hooked up too. I dont think it affects my ability to be neutral and balanced. But, i dont really get to make the judgement on my own neutrality at the end of the day. I can only demonstrate it in what i write and learn from the feedback i receive on it. 

Now lets get to the meat of the point i have made. I really think ive said what i need to say here, but for the sake of clarity:

This site has a perception of being tied in with neversummer a little too close. It has led to your own forum users asking why neversummer seem to be getting so much exposure on this site.

Lets clarify this first before you jump in and also directly address the second accusation that im ignoring the hype around the brand from the past. 

Im not saying that this means you and neversummer are in collusion to sell products. Once again ive been rather deliberate in avoiding the causal chain here. I understand how hype works. Its an organic process. Theres no causal chain here because i wouldnt even know where to begin. Its chicken/egg. Is the neversummer momentum on this site and the proliferation of threads talking about or referencing neversummer (including this one) caused by your close ties over the past few years, or are the close ties a product of the exposure you guys have given to neversummer? 

EL has Johan over there making lots of posts, and it leads to a warm fuzzy relationship between those cats making the place C3 friendly. It doesnt mean chappy and Johan coordinated it all though to hype up c3 and dupe the rubes by making them promote capita. Its an organic process and ANY OTHER BRAND IN THE WORLD can start talking about their products and foster close ties with message boards. It just so happens though that EL is very C3 friendly, just as this site is very NS friendly. 

The causal chain isnt explicated SPECIFICALLY because im in no position to depict it. So again, this isnt a line of response you want to pursue against me. Instead the point is the much less aggressive one that you do have a relationship. Your forums give a lot of exposure to neversummer. And your fellow forum users are asking why it is?

Indeed, you both concede the point and justify it as just people really liking the boards recommended them and in turn want to pass on the "stoke" by recommending those boards to others... swings/roundabouts, perhaps?

We are both saying much the same thing. This board gives a LOT of exposure to neversummer. The fostering of even closer ties to what many people already perceive as a rather close relationship does not in any way help your claims AS A SITE (not as individuals) to neutrality and impartiality. Its something youre going to have to convince people on. 

finally, just on a point of order here, you realise that no ones saying youre ADVERTISING neversummer. The issue is precisely the already over exposure of the brand on this site, with the addition of new ties leading to EVEN MORE exposure for neversummer. It genuinely jeapordizes the sites credibility as a source of impartial and neutral information. NOT BECAUSE YOU are impartial, but because the information on this site skews towards Neversummer. 
As i said in the very first post (and i will repeat because it shows ive remained thoroughly consistent throughout), if people want to know about how a neversummer rides, they should demo it for themselves. But the reason they might be looking for neversummer demo days is that they probably came to this site and read a lot of posts hyping neversummer. Chicken and egg, swings and roundabouts. Whatever the causal chain, it is a problem for your neaturality as a SITE that youre now so heavily tied in with the brand that you have a longstanding history with. Whatever you think, you have to at least accept this doesnt exactly help your claims to neutrality and objectivity.

Ill tell you what, i spent too much time on this last night and far too much time writing this on not enough sleep this morning so ill probably step back and leave your claims unmolested. But do try and get what im ACTUALLY saying before you try reading between the lines and attributing points i havent made due to IMPLICATIONS (that arent there). Ive said it, ive clarified it. Several times in fact. These arent short posts after all. And Ive remained thoroughly consistent throughout. Ive also stuck to the points, directly addressed your claims, and not attacked anyone in the process. I cant honestly be more genuine in my desire for open discussion on the VERY TOPIC of this thread. (though it might be a little more garbled due to only getting a few hours sleep).


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## dreampow (Sep 26, 2011)

Wow, this thread blew up.

Everyone needs to relax, these are snowboards we are talking about not nuclear missiles. 

For what its worth I intend to be as honest as I can and as objective as I can.

No review or reviewer can claim total objectivity since that is just not a human trait.

In my first proto review I gave glowing praise for the board as well as pointing out its weak points. 

At that point I had 0 connections with NS and was just talking as a rider who bought (at full price) a board that suited his needs.

If I like any of the new boards as much will I be called out as biased if I praise them in the same way?

As many have said take reviews with a grain of salt, demo if possible then (wo) man up and make *your* choice.

I personally would welcome similar projects from other brands and think it would be great for the forum and riders trying to choose a board. The more information you can gather before you buy the better.

Rome, Burton, Arbor, Nitro, Flow I am available to test your products:laugh:.


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## david_z (Dec 14, 2009)

dreampow said:


> I personally would welcome similar projects from other brands and think it would be great for the forum and riders trying to choose a board. The more information you can gather before you buy the better.
> 
> Rome, Burton, Arbor, Nitro, Flow I am available to test your products:laugh:.


QFT.

10char10char


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## ETM (Aug 11, 2009)

Wheres BA???? :laugh:


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## ARSENALFAN (Apr 16, 2012)

This shit is better than a romance novel according to my wife. Somebody said that to be unbiased, the boards should be returned to Never Summer. Can't say I disagree with the statement. That being said, if NS were giving good old ArsenalFan a free board, I wouldn't want to hear a comment like this. I think good old "Vince" should give forum members 20% off, that would allow me to buy my Cobra - yes, I have fallen for the hype. So I welcome the coupon code....:yahoo: Look forward to the deals in my inbox.


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## Varza (Jan 6, 2013)

ARSENALFAN said:


> This shit is better than a romance novel according to my wife. Somebody said that to be unbiased, the boards should be returned to Never Summer. Can't say I disagree with the statement. That being said, if NS were giving good old ArsenalFan a free board, I wouldn't want to hear a comment like this. I think good old "Vince" should give forum members 20% off, that would allow me to buy my Cobra - yes, I have fallen for the hype. So I welcome the coupon code....:yahoo: Look forward to the deals in my inbox.


Lollers! Anything to make their stuff available to the poor college brat that I am! Then I would see for myself how good their stuff is! :yahoo:


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## ETM (Aug 11, 2009)

ARSENALFAN said:


> So I welcome the coupon code....:yahoo: Look forward to the deals in my inbox.


That would have been a good marketing tool and went down a lot better than the current disaster.


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## backstop13 (Jun 27, 2012)

Well I doubt anyone will care what some fucktard from the southeast would say on this forum but I'll say it anyway just because...

I'm a noob, I started riding last year on a 2012 Burton Clash. I picked things up pretty quickly because I was riding with others who were way more advanced than me, and I knew that I wanted to get another board for the start of the 2012/2013 season to advance my own riding further. I did a lot of research of different types of boards and a lot of that research was done through this website. I ultimately decided on a NS SL, which I have ridden all year. I had high expectations based on all the "hype" that most of you are talking about, and I can honestly say that the board delivered and then some. The difference between my Clash and the SL is night and day for me. That's not a knock on Burton, it's just my endorsement of SL. Not everyone has the financial ability or need for an entire quiver of several boards. I don't need an all-mountain or powder deck because I just don't have that much mountain to ride where I live. With that said, I wanted to buy the best quality board I could that would last me a long time. I read review after review of people who owned NS boards (besides those on the review team) who swore by NS's because of their dampness and durability, so I jumped on one. I will rep NS to others who are asking about board suggestions because that's what I know and that's what has worked for me. 

It honestly seems to me like a lot of people on here are butthurt because they aren't getting in on the review team. For those of you so convinced that these reviews will be biased, why don't you just take the review with a grain of salt and move along? These reviews haven't even been written yet but many are still mad that the reviews will be biased. I don't get it :dunno:
I'd be lying if I said there wasn't a part of me that wished I could have gotten to do something as cool as be part of a review team like this. But, the truth is, I have limited experience on a board. It would be pretty difficult to me to give an honest opinion of a board and compare it to others when I've only ridden a few boards and am not even a good enough rider to push a board to the limits needed for an honest, objective review. I would love to write a review for my SL, but unfortunately I don't think it would be beneficial to anyone as I can't articulate what is better about it than other boards. All I know is it is enjoyable as hell to ride and I like how responsive it is. If that makes me biased then so be it. In defense of the riders on the review team who are active on this site, I have yet to see them trash a non-NS brand and promote only NS. I don't see it happening and if by some crazy chance that it does, that's when people have the right to complain.

The truth is I'm looking forward to reading these reviews. As a ice coast guy, I don't get to ride a lot of big mountains. Most people gravitate towards park here in the southeast because that's all we have to do. I'm looking forward to reading Extremo's reviews on the Evo to see if it's the board for me. Until I've been given a reason to doubt the review teams objectiveness, I'm going read and trust their reviews. If you don't happen to believe these guys reviews are unbiased, then I suggest you just skip the review and check out some other boards.


(and I second ArsenalFan's suggestion for some NS coupon love...:yahoo


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## Donutz (May 12, 2010)

ETM said:


> That would have been a good marketing tool and went down a lot better than the current disaster.


Disaster? Really? Because a couple of people are claiming bias without anything to go on except the fact that people say good things about NS?

This is about a half-bag-of-popcorn sideshow.


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## NWBoarder (Jan 10, 2010)

Wow, what a read. This will be my first time on a NeverSummer board. I've ridden other boards with the rocker + camber profile though. I wasn't approached by NeverSummer, I was approached by my friend Scott, you all know him as Snowolf, and asked if I wanted to be a part of this. I've never had an opportunity like this before, so you bet I wasn't going to pass it up. I get to be objective in my review, and say what I want. I also get to provide my thoughts and feedback to NeverSummer. That part of it is what I found to be the coolest aspect of this whole thing. 

I really hope that someone somewhere reads whatever I end up writing and then thinks, "that was really helpful to me" . As others have stated, if other companies were to do the same thing as NeverSummer is doing, I'd be all for it, and more than willing to help out. :-D And to the people who think we should have to return the boards, if that was how NeverSummer wanted to do it, I still would have been down to do it. They didn't want to do it that way though, and that was their choice. I'm not going to argue with them and demand they take it back. No one would. 

On that note, I've been riding switch once a week on a slight directional board. I'm stoked to finally hop on a true twin and see just how much my switch riding truly has improved. :-D 

Sent from my SPH-D710 using VerticalSports.Com App


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## ETM (Aug 11, 2009)

Donutz said:


> Disaster? Really? Because a couple of people are claiming bias without anything to go on except the fact that people say good things about NS?
> 
> This is about a half-bag-of-popcorn sideshow.


I guess it might be hard to see from inside the bubble but from outside it just looks like a click club thats getting boards for free and then theyre gonna tell us all how good they are. you might think theres only a few people laughing at this but theres only a few who are willing to post it on a forum where all the heavyweights are the ones who are benefiting from this. I guarentee it looks bad. Im just disappointed that the forum i love just took a major step into the murky world of cash for comment and theres no turning back.


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## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

LOL @ this thread.

Here's what I see:

There's a handful of people butthurt that other people are getting free shit, but there's also a ton of butthurt from the "team" about any and all negative feedback coming their way.

As I see it, here's the reality:

It was a good idea by NS. Hook key people up with free shit to get design input and also get some online hype. That's smart from a design perspective and a marketing perspective. I'm not certain however that it was a good idea to let the cat out of the bag on it. Probably one of those programs that was best suited to be kept under wraps. 

To the team members who refuse to accept that marketing had anything to do with the formation of this team... don't be dense. To the people butthurt that other people are getting free shit, guess what, that's life. Life isn't fair. Tons of people in all industries get hook ups. It's nothing new and it's not going to change. Get over it.

:thumbsup:


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## jdang307 (Feb 6, 2011)

Extremo said:


> It's not advertising, it's exposure. Neversummer isn't asking me to sell their boards. They're asking me to give them, and you, an honest opinion. I can't speak for the other design team members, but that is what I plan on doing.
> 
> I would have never stepped foot on a Never Summer board because they have never appealed to me. But now they're making a solid effort to develop their park/freestyle boards the same way they've done with their big mountain stuff. My plan is to ride the boards, figure out what they need to get rid of, what they need to keep, and what they need to add, and I'll share that with everyone. My opinion doesn't trump anyones. If someone's got something to add about a product I'm on, anyone is welcome to chime in.


The fact that Extremo is on the design team, is good enough for me. He has never, ever hyped or pushed NS. He's actually on the other side of most hype on this forum. Love for Union notwithstanding


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## Qball (Jun 22, 2010)

Probably wasnt a good idea to make this whole thing so public. I know plenty of people who are testers for other companies and ride shit that wont be out for 2 years. They dont go around making it publicly known to everyone though. Its just not a good idea and this thread highlights exactly why.


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## ETM (Aug 11, 2009)

FWIW I am definately not butthurt about getting free NS boards. I already own one which I cut into a split to use as my spring basher and another one is not even on my radar. Im not that chuffed on the shapes to be honest. 

I have only spoken out as its just so blantantly obvious that this WILL result in some fucked up ass kissing on the forums of which there is already more than enough and I think that a few certain people need to know that this shit aint going down as smooth as they think it is.

In saying that I dont disrepect those people at all so its not to be taken as a personal attack. Everyone loves free shit and I cant blame anyone for taking up the offer but we all know (and you do in the back of your mind so quit the denials) that when you pick up that free board that you have been bought out, maybe in a very small way but you have sold a piece of your integrity when it comes to (a) reviewing on the forum and (b) even posting on the forum in general. Any more one eyed bullshit and this place will become a farse and not even worth visiting. 

I watch and wait with extremely low expectations of the future of this forum but I really hope it doesnt turn out the way its looking. I hope this place stays as brutal and to the point as it was last week and last year and I mean that sincerely.

Leigh.


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