# How to hold an edge on compacted snow



## bruised (Jan 29, 2017)

Hi, I just wanted advice about holding an edge on hard compacted snow, on the flats.

I find that sometimes I can struggle to hold an edge and steer effectively when leaving lifts. or a more painful scenario is: riding over the flats when the snow is compacted an losing a good edge, drifting sideways and catching an edge.. and this is trying to maintain a good speed. I did this the other day and I'm so glad I was wearing a helmet!

Soft snow is no problem where I can can maintain good control.. Am I not putting enough pressure on the front or back foot?

Thanks!


(I posted a couple of other posts, on other issues.. I hope this is the right thing because the subjects are not the same)


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## neni (Dec 24, 2012)

Main reason for edge catches is your weight in the backseat, so the hind part of your edge is in contact and then all of a sudden the front grips, causing a sidden slam.

Get your weight out of the backseat and control your front edge. Shift weight to your front foot, bend your knees well and let the front edge have contact and have the lead. The hind edge will follow. 

That's also your solution to riding steep hardpack. Move your weight to the front, trust your board/edge. Additionally, to get good grip, you need to tilt the board. If you're riding timidly, you don't have tilt and enough pressure on the edge, the board can't help you. If you ride determined and tilt it, get nice pressure on the edge, it'll hold. It's a confidence thing... the more you hesitate, the less the edge will help you.

If I face challenging conditions/runs, I conciously try to focus on the nose of the board and forget abt the hind leg. Front leg bent, weight to the front, nose pointing downhill, quick short half turns. The job of the hind leg is only to quickly finish the turn and follow back to get the nose downhill again. Don't do too long turns which will get you back into the backseat.


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## bruised (Jan 29, 2017)

Thanks that sounds like goos advice...

Sometimes on the flat hard pack I seem to find the front edge stays steady and the tail drifts out giving a diagonal slide.



neni said:


> Main reason for edge catches is your weight in the backseat, so the hind part of your edge is in contact and then all of a sudden the front grips, causing a sidden slam.
> 
> Get your weight out of the backseat and control your front edge. Shift weight to your front foot, bend your knees well and let the front edge have contact and have the lead. The hind edge will follow.
> 
> ...


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## Donutz (May 12, 2010)

On the flats, you may be keeping your board flat. Depending on the board profile, this might send you immediately into squirrelly behavior. At minimum it reduces control. Even a slight edge will help enormously. So when you're sailing along, try giving the board a slight toe or heel edge, or even opposites front and back. Play with it a bit, and you'll find something that's comfortable and still allows you to keep a straight line.


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## wrathfuldeity (Oct 5, 2007)

bruised said:


> Thanks that sounds like goos advice...
> 
> Sometimes on the flat hard pack I seem to find the front edge stays steady and the tail drifts out giving a diagonal slide.


that cause you are rotated...probably open and at risk for scorpion/face plant...find the creepy basement vid!


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## speedjason (May 2, 2013)

Too much weight on the back causing the board to rotate. Snowboard is really simple, which side has more weight goes towards down hill.
Plus what wrath said, if you are rotated, this is gonna be even more of a problem.


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## WasabiCanuck (Apr 29, 2015)

As others are saying, you are likely in the backseat. Post a vid so we can see what you are do/not doing. I find riding at very slow speeds a little different from regular riding. You can't really carve or turn the same when going slowly so it might feel weird or different. Don't be afraid of a little flat base riding when going slowly. But being slightly on one edge is better, just takes very subtle pressure. Same for getting off a chair, slight toe or heel pressure and you will perform what is called a "j-turn" but it won't work if you are in the backseat.

Here's an old and cheesy video but it explains j-turns better than any other vid I've seen:






Not sure if this will help you in your specific case but good info regardless. This vid helped me for getting of chairlifts.


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## MisterNarwhal (Dec 6, 2016)

WasabiCanuck said:


>


 @Wiredsport would love those boots!


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## lbs123 (Jan 24, 2017)

The key to holding edge properly is to create something like a counter balanced pressure:

- When on the toe edge - your shins press on the front of your boots but on the same time you should lightly push your heels down
- When on the heel edge - you calves press to the back of your boots but on the same time you should lightly push your toes down

This will give you much better and more refined control over the edge hold.


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## speedjason (May 2, 2013)

WasabiCanuck said:


> As others are saying, you are likely in the backseat. Post a vid so we can see what you are do/not doing. I find riding at very slow speeds a little different from regular riding. You can't really carve or turn the same when going slowly so it might feel weird or different. Don't be afraid of a little flat base riding when going slowly. But being slightly on one edge is better, just takes very subtle pressure. Same for getting off a chair, slight toe or heel pressure and you will perform what is called a "j-turn" but it won't work if you are in the backseat.
> 
> Here's an old and cheesy video but it explains j-turns better than any other vid I've seen:
> 
> ...


Yes, at low speeds turning is a bit different because you can't really get on the edge so it's more of a skidded turn instead of carve.


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## lbs123 (Jan 24, 2017)

So I've just watched the video above, and I think they teach it wrong - lifting toes on the heel turns


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## WasabiCanuck (Apr 29, 2015)

lbs123 said:


> So I've just watched the video above, and I think they teach it wrong - lifting toes on the heel turns


I was just trying to help. Please, oh expert, post a video of you showing us the right way. :notworthy::notworthy::notworthy::notworthy:


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## wrathfuldeity (Oct 5, 2007)

lbs123...wut ...how would you do it?


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## speedjason (May 2, 2013)

lbs123 said:


> So I've just watched the video above, and I think they teach it wrong - lifting toes on the heel turns


Actually it is lifting toes on heel side turns and pressing down toes on toe side turn.


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## lbs123 (Jan 24, 2017)

WasabiCanuck said:


> I was just trying to help. Please, oh expert, post a video of you showing us the right way. :notworthy::notworthy::notworthy::notworthy:


Sorry, I didn't want to offend you, neither I'm saying the whole video is wrong. Just that _I think_ their instruction about lifting toes is wrong. I'll try to explain it in another message.


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## lbs123 (Jan 24, 2017)

speedjason said:


> Actually it is lifting toes on heel side turns and pressing down toes on toe side turn.


Yep, you can do it like that. But there is an another technique, which IMHO gives you a better control over the edge. I've created the attached images to make it clearer what I was talking about before. Before saying it's a nonsese, just try it on the hill. Not saying it should work for everyone, but snowboading is about having an open mind, so why not to try something new and see if it doesn't improve your riding.


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## wrathfuldeity (Oct 5, 2007)

lbs123 said:


> So I've just watched the video above, and I think they teach it wrong - lifting toes on the heel turns





bruised said:


> Hi, I just wanted advice about holding an edge on hard compacted snow, on the flats.
> 
> I find that sometimes I can struggle to hold an edge and steer effectively when leaving lifts. or a more painful scenario is: riding over the flats when the snow is compacted an losing a good edge, drifting sideways and catching an edge.. and this is trying to maintain a good speed. I did this the other day and I'm so glad I was wearing a helmet!
> 
> ...





lbs123 said:


> Yep, you can do it like that. But there is an another technique, which IMHO gives you a better control over the edge. I've created the attached images to make it clearer what I was talking about before. Before saying it's a nonsese, just try it on the hill. Not saying it should work for everyone, but snowboading is about having an open mind, so why not to try something new and see if it doesn't improve your riding.


Imo we are talking about 2 different things. OP was asking about exiting the chair and being on relatively flat areas. Verses your proposed technique is for general traverse riding and being able to hold an edge. Yes they are similar...but have 2 distinctly different purposes and arguably on different terrain for different riding objectives. Both are right when rightly applied and both are wrong when applied for the inappropriate objective.

Also the toe rise thing also applies to develop carving heelside when holding a higher speed carve...as to engage the edge a bit better....again more of a finesse thing but at a much higher rate of speed. And there are other things involved such as angulation when laying trenches.


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## lbs123 (Jan 24, 2017)

wrathfuldeity said:


> Imo we are talking about 2 different things. OP was asking about exiting the chair and being on relatively flat areas. Verses your proposed technique is for general traverse riding and being able to hold an edge. Yes they are similar...but have 2 distinctly different purposes and arguably on different terrain for different riding objectives. Both are right when rightly applied and both are wrong when applied for the inappropriate objective.
> 
> Also the toe rise thing also applies to develop carving heelside when holding a higher speed carve...as to engage the edge a bit better....again more of a finesse thing but at a much higher rate of speed. And there are other things involved such as angulation when laying trenches.


In fact, the technique I've described should be suitable for any type of condition or terrain. To avoid cathing edge on flats you should have one edge constantly engaged. This can also be achieved by pressing against the front or back of the boots and "locking" the foot in that position by pressing heels or toes in the opposite direction.

You can apply the same to the carves. On the attached image he pulls the board by hand and I think he needs to push the toes against the hand to keep balance.

Anyway, this is just one possible method, the best would be to try it if it works for you or not. I need to focus on it during the weekend too as I've been doing it automatically for long time, not thinking about it much lately. Maybe I will come up with some updated info and images afterwards


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## f00bar (Mar 6, 2014)

I think we've drifted a bit off topic of the original post which is lift exit, flat basing on the long traverses. As mentioned, most likely reason is weight on the rear leg or poor body position. On the latter, look at where you want to go, not at your board which is what lots of newer people do.


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## deagol (Mar 26, 2014)

Sorry to add to thread drift, but for that heelside pic, I disagree with Items #1 & 3. The toe lift is done in conjunction with the leaning described in the graphic...


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## poutanen (Dec 22, 2011)

I think I'm going to start answering all these questions like Bill Belichick.

Q: I'm having trouble on my toe side catching my heel edge. What do?

"Lessons"

Q: I've been snowboarding for three days and can carve black diamonds, but I'm having trouble falling on my face. What do?

"Lessons"

Q: My name is Jeremy Jones and I like to ride spines in Alaska. What do?

"Lessons"


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## wrathfuldeity (Oct 5, 2007)

from a necro thread

http://www.snowboardingforum.com/tips-tricks-snowboard-coaching/3268-tips-riding-flat-3.html

Originally Posted by arcticguerilla View Post

Here's my take...

Your body center of gravity is generally in the middle of the board. Generally, the board wants to spin around your body CG.

When you ride on your edges, your tip and tail edge at the contact points are restraining your board from spinning since they are dug into the snow. If something tries to throw you into a spin, your tip and tail contact points stop the rotation...like a boat rudder.

When you ride flat, you're board is free to rotate around your body CG. The bottom of the board and the snow contact is considered a "frictionless" interface from a physics standpoint. Therefore, if snow / box / rail hits your board edge at the tip or tail, and you are riding flat, there is nothing to prevent you from spinning about your CG and you can RAPIDLY go unstable QUICKLY and get thrown down the hill! Ouch!


Moi's reply
AG..."Generally, the board wants to spin around your body CG." This is incorrect...the board doesn't want to spin around anything. It just wants to follow or go down the fall line; and the end (nose or tail) with the most weight will want to go down first.

However, the board will want to spin around your body cog...IF your body is twisted/rotated/loaded...but if your body is neutral or not rotated/loaded it will not have a tendency to unwind, thus spin. Therefore, the importance of good posture and alignment so that your hips and shoulders are parallel nose to tail.

Also the board will appear to want to spin if the more weighted end is uphill...that is, if more weight is in the tail, the tail will want to swing around and go first down the hill. However, if the nose of the board is weighted more than the tail...the tail can only follow the heavier nose down the fall line. An easy experiment of this is to center a small 3-5 lb bag of sand on the front or back binding and see what happens. In fact a dumb bag of 5# of sand centered in the front binding, will go right down the fall line and won't catch an edge....and if you put the bag of sand in the rear/uphill binding it will swing around until the tail finds the fall line...take off switch and not catch an edge.

So...if you want to ride flat....and I mean flat...not slightly on an edge...have a neutral body alignment and slightly weight the nose...YOU WILL NOT CATCH AN EDGE irregardless if you are going slow, medium or fast. And the reason is...because there is no edge to catch. However you have to be loose in the feet, ankles and knees to allow the board to follow the fall line and ride over the minor imperfections.

Two reasons to develop the skill to ride flat based:

First...if you are riding a really flat and long cattrack or traverse...you will maintain your speed if you ride flat based with a very slightly weight nose...riding on an edge will slow you down.

Second...if you are straight line bombing runs and your board seems to get squirrely...you are in the back seat...too much weight on the tail and it wants to swing around...WELL shift your weight to get on the nose and the squirreliness will immediately stop and you can confidently engage a slight edge...if you want to.


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## OU812 (Feb 2, 2013)

wrathfuldeity said:


> from a necro thread
> 
> http://www.snowboardingforum.com/tips-tricks-snowboard-coaching/3268-tips-riding-flat-3.html
> 
> ...


Makes sense.
I've noticed that on a hybrid board (cam/rock/cam) having weight on the nose when flat basing is even more important because of the rocker between the feet. Those boards can get really squirrelly and if you're not up on the nose you're gonna eat some serious shit. I've also noticed the wider my stance the better control I have, because I guess I push the camber section down more and the board becomes more stable, not sure but I'm definitely liking it more.


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## wrathfuldeity (Oct 5, 2007)

OU812 said:


> Makes sense.
> I've noticed that on a hybrid board (cam/rock/cam) having weight on the nose when flat basing is even more important because of the rocker between the feet. Those boards can get really squirrelly and if you're not up on the nose you're gonna eat some serious shit. I've also noticed the wider my stance the better control I have, because I guess I push the camber section down more and the board becomes more stable, not sure but I'm definitely liking it more.


On a crc board you can also flat base on the tail...BUT you got to be aligned to where you want to go...cause if ur twisted up, the board will want to relieve your twisted (body) up energy and unwind...and ur at the risk of catching an edge as the tail will naturally want to swing around to go downhill first.


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## speedjason (May 2, 2013)

Skating really is simply riding with front leg.
However I do place my back foot on the edge I wanna use.
Per flat basing not engaging edges. Depending on the board. Some boards have the contact point after the widest part of the board which acts like like an arrow keeping the board straight when flat basing if snow is soft.


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## SGboarder (Jun 24, 2012)

lbs123 said:


> Yep, you can do it like that. But there is an another technique, which IMHO gives you a better control over the edge. I've created the attached images to make it clearer what I was talking about before. Before saying it's a nonsese, just try it on the hill. Not saying it should work for everyone, but snowboading is about having an open mind, so why not to try something new and see if it doesn't improve your riding.





lbs123 said:


> In fact, the technique I've described should be suitable for any type of condition or terrain. To avoid cathing edge on flats you should have one edge constantly engaged. This can also be achieved by pressing against the front or back of the boots and "locking" the foot in that position by pressing heels or toes in the opposite direction.
> 
> You can apply the same to the carves. On the attached image he pulls the board by hand and I think he needs to push the toes against the hand to keep balance.
> 
> Anyway, this is just one possible method, the best would be to try it if it works for you or not. I need to focus on it during the weekend too as I've been doing it automatically for long time, not thinking about it much lately. Maybe I will come up with some updated info and images afterwards


Just no. Pushing the toes down in a heelside turn (or the heels in a toeside turn) might help with balancing (esp. when bending over at the waist) but that is a crutch/correction and not proper technique.
The guy in the carving shot is lifting his toes (not pushing down on them).


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## Lamps (Sep 3, 2011)

wrathfuldeity said:


> On a crc board you can also flat base on the tail...BUT you got to be aligned to where you want to go...cause if ur twisted up, the board will want to relieve your twisted (body) up energy and unwind...and ur at the risk of catching an edge as the tail will naturally want to swing around to go downhill first.





OU812 said:


> Makes sense.
> I've noticed that on a hybrid board (cam/rock/cam) having weight on the nose when flat basing is even more important because of the rocker between the feet. Those boards can get really squirrelly and if you're not up on the nose you're gonna eat some serious shit. I've also noticed the wider my stance the better control I have, because I guess I push the camber section down more and the board becomes more stable, not sure but I'm definitely liking it more.


I was going to ask if the OP was on a cambered board or not, CRC can be really squirrelly in the flats, esp if the rocker is pronounced. I have a Burton Sherlock that's got a really rockered middle, turns really sweet in soft snow/powder, riding hard packed flats it feels like the damn thing is constantly tryin to kill me, it's like standing on a bowling ball, neither the front or back edges engage as its sits up on the middle, treacherous. I have other CRC boards that aren't as rockered and they're less tricky in the flats but still more so than camber.


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## Nocturnal7x (Mar 6, 2015)

Lamps said:


> I was going to ask if the OP was on a cambered board or not, CRC can be really squirrelly in the flats, esp if the rocker is pronounced. I have a Burton Sherlock that's got a really rockered middle, turns really sweet in soft snow/powder, riding hard packed flats it feels like the damn thing is constantly tryin to kill me, it's like standing on a bowling ball, neither the front or back edges engage as its sits up on the middle, treacherous. I have other CRC boards that aren't as rockered and they're less tricky in the flats but still more so than camber.


This is likely my issue. I have an Arbor Element RX with the parabolic rocker (rocker levels out as it gets to tip and tail). Its super squirly on flats. Im also 120lbs soaking wet on the 153 so that probably makes matters worse as I'm 6lbs above the minimum weight. 

Just have to keep on toes or heels always. Ive yet to master skating, it's not uncommon the board spins 360s on me lol. I'll have to try what is suggested above and look where I want to go and don't look at the board, which I am probably doing.


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## jae (Nov 27, 2015)

lbs123 said:


> Yep, you can do it like that. But there is an another technique, which IMHO gives you a better control over the edge. I've created the attached images to make it clearer what I was talking about before. Before saying it's a nonsese, just try it on the hill. Not saying it should work for everyone, but snowboading is about having an open mind, so why not to try something new and see if it doesn't improve your riding.


this is utter garbage. I don't really knock people down but wow man. that's asking for serious edge catching. while that may work for you, don't preach that shit to other people, it'll get them hurt.


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## lbs123 (Jan 24, 2017)

jae said:


> this is utter garbage. I don't really knock people down but wow man. that's asking for serious edge catching. while that may work for you, don't preach that shit to other people, it'll get them hurt.


So you clearly didn’t understand the technique neither you’ve tried it and yet you call it utter garbage and shit? Congratulations, internet hero, you’ve just saved 243 innocent snowboarders from the evil technique. 

You probably don’t know much about physics and how the forces apply, do you? If you think that lightly pressing the toes down on the heel turn can make you catch the toe edge and vice versa. The forces which hold rider on the edge (forward or backward lean translated through legs to the boots) are much bigger than those opposite counter balancing forces. 

The OP question was how not to catch the edge on flats with compacted snow - the edge can be most easily caught when no edge is clearly defined and the legs don’t press against the boots. That’s typically when trying to ride board flat without good body balance or when loosing edge hold on one side because of the unintentional weight shifting resulting in moving legs inside the boots. Then the board loses contact with the rider and now the terrain controls the board.

If rider puts the board on the edge and locks the foot in the boot using this technique it’s literally impossible to catch the opposite edge. Edge transition should be started by leaning forward or backward using the body core muscles and when the leg touches the opposite side of the boot you should lock the foot in the boot. How can you catch the edge then? Without leaning in the opposite direction the opposite edge cannot evet get close to the snow.

Before you knock me down again try this if you are not afraid - find a compacted snow or icy field and try to slide it vertically down on the heel edge controling edge and speed by moving your toes up and down (a common technique). Then try to slide it down by locking your foot in the boot (= press calves against the back of the boots and push the toes lightly down) and controlling edge and speed by shifting your weight forward and backward.


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## SGboarder (Jun 24, 2012)

lbs123 said:


> So you clearly didn’t understand the technique neither you’ve tried it and yet you call it utter garbage and shit? Congratulations, internet hero, you’ve just saved 243 innocent snowboarders from the evil technique.
> 
> You probably don’t know much about physics and how the forces apply, do you? If you think that lightly pressing the toes down on the heel turn can make you catch the toe edge and vice versa. The forces which hold rider on the edge (forward or backward lean translated through legs to the boots) are much bigger than those opposite counter balancing forces.
> 
> ...


We totally understand your so-called 'technique'. Problem is that this technique is bad form and a common beginner mistake


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## Noreaster (Oct 7, 2012)

lbs123 said:


> So you clearly didn’t understand the technique neither you’ve tried it and yet you call it utter garbage and shit?


People are strange.
- Jim Morrison


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## chomps1211 (Mar 30, 2011)

Noreaster said:


> People are strange.
> - Jim Morrison


"...When you're a stranger!!!"


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## redlude97 (Jan 9, 2008)

SGboarder said:


> We totally understand your so-called 'technique'. Problem is that this technique is bad form and a common beginner mistake


I don't think its bad form per se. They are just misapplying when to use it. On a hard heelside slash I drive with the heel but also push with the toes. It helps with applying more pressure for spray and helps with balance when your ass is almost dragging in the snow. When carving on groomers I do not push with the toes and instead lift.


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## SGboarder (Jun 24, 2012)

SGboarder said:


> We totally understand your so-called 'technique'. Problem is that this technique is bad form and a common beginner mistake





redlude97 said:


> I don't think its bad form per se. They are just misapplying when to use it. On a hard heelside slash I drive with the heel but also push with the toes. It helps with applying more pressure for spray and helps with balance when your ass is almost dragging in the snow. When carving on groomers I do not push with the toes and instead lift.


Issues are that the advocated 'technique' 1) at best has quite limited applications and 2) is pretty much the opposite of what is required in the OP's situation.


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## Phedder (Sep 13, 2014)

lbs123 said:


> *Edge transition should be started by leaning forward or backward* using the body core muscles and when the leg touches the opposite side of the boot you should lock the foot in the boot. How can you catch the edge then? Without leaning in the opposite direction the opposite edge cannot evet get close to the snow.


Oh dear god no. With proper edge control using your ankles and knees and a 'silent upper body' you can weave through a pretty tight course without leaning the upper body forward or backward at all. Get low, drive with the legs and use the sidecut of the board.


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## lbs123 (Jan 24, 2017)

Phedder said:


> Oh dear god no. With proper edge control using your ankles and knees and a 'silent upper body' you can weave through a pretty tight course without leaning the upper body forward or backward at all. Get low, drive with the legs and use the sidecut of the board.


Not sure what's your point here as what you said is possible but has a quite limited usage. Or do you ride with your upper body perpendicular to the ground all time? Even carving like this | not like this / and this \ ?


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## lbs123 (Jan 24, 2017)

SGboarder said:


> We totally understand your so-called 'technique'. Problem is that this technique is bad form and a common beginner mistake


I don't think you understand it if you think this could be a beginner mistake. It's not something you could unintentionally do as a beginner, it requires some practice to do it properly.

Anyway, it's totally up to you how you ride. I just don't understand this defensive overreaction. I've been snowboarding for over 20 years and when it comes to technique I agree with all respected resources like Snowboard Addiction, Ryan Knapton, etc. All I did is that I had described an alternative way of using foot for controlling edge and the reaction was like I was promoting counter rotation for making turns. I bet you heard of this technique for the first time and confuse it with some beginners mistakes but don't bother to try it on the hill and come with some logical arguments why it shouldn't or doesn't work.

Until you do, I'm not going to waste your and mine time on further unproductive discussions. Peace.


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## wrathfuldeity (Oct 5, 2007)

lbs123 said:


> The key to holding edge properly is to create something like a counter balanced pressure:
> 
> - When on the toe edge - your shins press on the front of your boots but on the same time you should lightly push your heels down
> - When on the heel edge - you calves press to the back of your boots but on the same time you should lightly push your toes down
> ...





lbs123 said:


> Yep, you can do it like that. But there is an another technique, which IMHO gives you a better control over the edge. I've created the attached images to make it clearer what I was talking about before. Before saying it's a nonsese, just try it on the hill. Not saying it should work for everyone, but snowboading is about having an open mind, so why not to try something new and see if it doesn't improve your riding.





lbs123 said:


> In fact, the technique I've described should be suitable for any type of condition or terrain. To avoid cathing edge on flats you should have one edge constantly engaged. This can also be achieved by pressing against the front or back of the boots and "locking" the foot in that position by pressing heels or toes in the opposite direction.
> 
> You can apply the same to the carves. On the attached image he pulls the board by hand and I think he needs to push the toes against the hand to keep balance.
> 
> Anyway, this is just one possible method, the best would be to try it if it works for you or not. I need to focus on it during the weekend too as I've been doing it automatically for long time, not thinking about it much lately. Maybe I will come up with some updated info and images afterwards





lbs123 said:


> I don't think you understand it if you think this could be a beginner mistake. It's not something you could unintentionally do as a beginner, it requires some practice to do it properly.
> 
> Anyway, it's totally up to you how you ride. I just don't understand this defensive overreaction. I've been snowboarding for over 20 years and when it comes to technique I agree with all respected resources like Snowboard Addiction, Ryan Knapton, etc. All I did is that I had described an alternative way of using foot for controlling edge and the reaction was like I was promoting counter rotation for making turns. I bet you heard of this technique for the first time and confuse it with some beginners mistakes but don't bother to try it on the hill and come with some logical arguments why it shouldn't or doesn't work.
> 
> Until you do, I'm not going to waste your and mine time on further unproductive discussions. Peace.


 @lbs123 Ok I'm intrigued and if I can remember will give it a try this Saturday. I think I understand (especially toeside) via your diagram and description ... but how will I know or what is the feeling when doing your technique? But, I'm having trouble visualizing your technique while on heelside and then pressing your toes down to "lock-in" your foot? And how is locking in your foot an advantage to being to able to finesse your edges...guess I is rather retarded.


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## Argo (Feb 25, 2010)

wrathfuldeity said:


> @lbs123 Ok I'm intrigued and if I can remember will give it a try this Saturday. I think I understand (especially toeside) via your diagram and description ... but how will I know or what is the feeling when doing your technique? But, I'm having trouble visualizing your technique while on heelside and then pressing your toes down to "lock-in" your foot? And how is locking in your foot an advantage to being to able to finesse your edges...guess I is rather retarded.


People likely do what he is talking about but dont realize it. Articulating and understanding via Internet isnt always easy....

What he is doing is locking his foot ankle and leg into the boot when on a hard edge so that any micro movements are felt at the board quicker. I do it too but only when I am on an edge for a long period of time. I keep my boots fitted pretty well so I dont have to try as hard with clamping my feet into place. 

I really mostly use it on heel edge as my toe edge control is pretty good. I lock my ankle down by exaggerating the arch of my foot while on my toe edge....


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## neni (Dec 24, 2012)

Argo said:


> People likely do what he is talking about but dont realize it. Articulating and understanding via Internet isnt always easy....
> 
> What he is doing is locking his foot ankle and leg into the boot when on a hard edge so that any micro movements are felt at the board quicker. I do it too but only when I am on an edge for a long period of time. I keep my boots fitted pretty well so I dont have to try as hard with clamping my feet into place.
> 
> I really mostly use it on heel edge as my toe edge control is pretty good. I lock my ankle down by exaggerating the arch of my foot while on my toe edge....


Agree. 
Had looked at @lbs123 diagrams and thought that they make sense and depict what I do as well. 

Maybe added info is that I use this riding with shins on toe edge (and micro adjust with heel movement) only with a stiff boot/binding set-up where the shin pressure is transferred to the edge (IMO it's not possible with a soft boot). Maybe that's another reason why some ppl didn't understand what lb was trying to say cos they simply don't know the feeling of such a set-up.


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## Argo (Feb 25, 2010)

I only ride with stiff boots, I have not used a soft boot in 8 or 9 years, when I first started riding.....


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## wrathfuldeity (Oct 5, 2007)

Thanks, I'll still give it a go...but my boots are fairly stiff (and would like stiffer boots) and my feets are already pretty much on lock down. Perhaps this might be useful riding 1 footy in the flats


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## lbs123 (Jan 24, 2017)

wrathfuldeity said:


> @lbs123 Ok I'm intrigued and if I can remember will give it a try this Saturday. I think I understand (especially toeside) via your diagram and description ... but how will I know or what is the feeling when doing your technique? But, I'm having trouble visualizing your technique while on heelside and then pressing your toes down to "lock-in" your foot? And how is locking in your foot an advantage to being to able to finesse your edges...guess I is rather retarded.


Like @redlude97 and also @wrathfuldeity described it, it feels most natural on the heel side carve turn. Check the attached image - I cannot say what Ryan is really doing there if lifting his toes or pushing them down or anything between, just imagine that when you are in a turn like this and your calves press against the back of the boots, you'd lightly push the toes down. It's more like creating pressure not pushing in a sense that your toe edge gets closer to the snow, the angle between snowboard and snow shouldn't change because of this. Regarding feeling I would describe it like a tension which locks snowboard and the edge in the turn.


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## redlude97 (Jan 9, 2008)

Argo said:


> People likely do what he is talking about but dont realize it. Articulating and understanding via Internet isnt always easy....
> 
> What he is doing is locking his foot ankle and leg into the boot when on a hard edge so that any micro movements are felt at the board quicker. I do it too but only when I am on an edge for a long period of time. I keep my boots fitted pretty well so I dont have to try as hard with clamping my feet into place.
> 
> I really mostly use it on heel edge as my toe edge control is pretty good. I lock my ankle down by exaggerating the arch of my foot while on my toe edge....


yea. people are probably already doing it without realizing it. It contributes to balance over the heelside edge. If anyone is familiar with an inverted leg press it is similar to that, you drive through the heel with the majority of your force, but use the toes pushing down as will to stabilize the foot. If you were to try to pull the toes up during the leg press it will feel less balanced and you won't be able to press as much weight


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## wrathfuldeity (Oct 5, 2007)

@lbs123 Thanks for the tip

I tried it and it works...me thinks, at least to my rather retarded think'n and act'n body it works best for wide open cruising and there was a noticeable locked in stability. But for tight technical stuff, I couldn't make it happen fast enough....perhaps with practice it will become more automatic.


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## lbs123 (Jan 24, 2017)

wrathfuldeity said:


> @lbs123 Thanks for the tip
> 
> I tried it and it works...me thinks, at least to my rather retarded think'n and act'n body it works best for wide open cruising and there was a noticeable locked in stability. But for tight technical stuff, I couldn't make it happen fast enough....perhaps with practice it will become more automatic.


Glad to hear it worked for you! Yep, I think that with a little bit of practice it shouldn't be a problem to do it quickly enough in smaller turns too.


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## elstinky (Jan 24, 2010)

WasabiCanuck said:


> Here's an old and cheesy video but it explains j-turns better than any other vid I've seen: ..


ok sorry to highjack the thread once more but I spent already an hour searching and didn't find a proper answer to my question: in the video they say to slightly push the front knee out on heelside, and in on toeside turns. What's the principle behind that?


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## neni (Dec 24, 2012)

elstinky said:


> ok sorry to highjack the thread once more but I spent already an hour searching and didn't find a proper answer to my question: in the video they say to slightly push the front knee out on heelside, and in on toeside turns. What's the principle behind that?


Do a dry test on the carpet . Stand ~ in your angle/stance. Now turn your front knee outward and monitor what happens with your body/weight distribution: Pressure goes to outer foot/heel. If there'd be a board attached to your feet, the heel edge would engage to a heel turn.
Do turn your knee inwards: pressure on your inner foot rumim/big toe: front edge engages a frontside turn. (FWIW, I don't do this knee outward/inwards turnin; I keep my front knee aligned with the foot and rather shift the knee/weight fwd over the front edge, or to the heel edge)


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## elstinky (Jan 24, 2010)

Thanks, that makes sense indeed (well, given you ride a positive angle on your front foot which is normally the case anyway). So it's like an extra aid to 'standard' flexing ankles/shifting weight.


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## neni (Dec 24, 2012)

elstinky said:


> Thanks, that makes sense indeed (well, given you ride a positive angle on your front foot which is normally the case anyway). So it's like an extra aid to 'standard' flexing ankles/shifting weight.


Dunno if it's"extra" or more like a good way to get the weight shifted in the beginning as long as one isn't yet aware of all the movements. 
If had used the "turn your shoulders where you want to go and the rest will follow" bridge when I was a beginne and felt at a loss how to turn the board; and indeed, shoulders rotating into the direction of intended ride direction _did_ do the trick (cos with it the hip rotated, accordingly the weight shifted and magically, the board turned ) but that was with fwd angles back in the day. Maybe with duck andles, the beginner memory hook is this knee rotation :dunno:


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## wrathfuldeity (Oct 5, 2007)

lbs123 said:


> Glad to hear it worked for you! Yep, I think that with a little bit of practice it shouldn't be a problem to do it quickly enough in smaller turns too.


Yesterday, did some more practice...it definitely works and getting more of a locked-in feeling for high speed groomer carving....consistently hit 60 mph on my cam twin 155 :grin:


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## neni (Dec 24, 2012)

elstinky said:


> ok sorry to highjack the thread once more but I spent already an hour searching and didn't find a proper answer to my question: in the video they say to slightly push the front knee out on heelside, and in on toeside turns. What's the principle behind that?


Whoa! This knee rotation stuff actually works! I'm super noob if it comes to riding switch. J turn level. Last weekend, trying it the first time for 2 y, I remembered that knee inward/outward rotation you had asked abt and used it to ride and... hey, I could actually pretty decently do S turns down the entire slope, even through soft spring moguls. Helped my clumsy toes n ancles not having the muscle memory yet to decently steer the board in the opposite direction to do transitions smoothly and quicker.
Awesome, thanks for the hint


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## elstinky (Jan 24, 2010)

neni said:


> Awesome, thanks for the hint


you're welcome :] And thanks to you in turn for bringing this up again: I already kinda forgot about it but now that it's fresh into memory again I'm definitely going to try it tomorrow for riding switch. Especially the heelside. For some reason toeside switch is not a huge problem for me but heelside always washes out.


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## elstinky (Jan 24, 2010)

neni said:


> Whoa! This knee rotation stuff actually works!


Ok so it's official now... It sure as hell does!! Tried it today when riding switch and I managed to do actual carves both sides. Man I was so happy when I rotated that knee a bit (together with whatever other stuff goes on), heard the skidding noise disappearing, felt the board doing the carve, and I looked back just to see this thin line and nothing more. Ok I can't really link the turns properly yet but I couldn't care less atm, this is already enough progress for a day.
Also tried it when riding regular and it might help there as well, hard to tell, but it definitely doesn't hurt either.
Tried it for quick cross-under turns as well but that doesn't seem work for me as I'm focusing too much on the knee rotation and lack the concentration for all other movements and start to wash out.
But, anyway, :bowdown: for the knee rotation trick :jumping1:


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## t21 (Dec 29, 2010)

Definitely agree with the knee rotation turn initiation(kindda rhymed lol!) i do this also when i do short carves rather than pushing my toes/knees down to turn toeside, open up on heelside and sometimes i slightly push out more a bit to get more out of my heelside carve. Recently been using this type of turn on chutes and do it in a rhytm and relax while not forcing my turns. It is a bit harder when the chutes get narrower but it works mostly on normal to wider chutes. For shit and giggles.i tried it on moguls but....no, not enough time and space:laugh2:


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