# Help with toe-side carves (can't get the "hump" motion)



## SlvrDragon50 (Mar 25, 2017)

Grunky said:


> Hi everyone!
> 
> First to introduce myself, I'm 35 and started snowboarding this season and f* love it. I go to resorts every saturdays and sundays and went 2 or 3 times a week on evening sessions until they stopped.
> Did lots of sports when I was a teenager, but it's like 10 years I almost didn't do anything. My body is rusty as hell.
> ...


You really need to post videos. I also don't think I ever think about humping when going on toe edge. You might have flexibility problems.


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## Grunky (Mar 21, 2019)

Yeah, I know for video but don't have any and not sure I'll have the opportunity to make one before next season...

I'm pretty sure I have flexibility problems :grin:
I tried an introduction to Yoga for old and newbs yesterday... and clearly I'm as flexible as a plank :laugh2:


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## LALUNE (Feb 23, 2017)

Grunky said:


> If I go quite slowly, quite straight legged, I can manage a clean carve with my pelvis tilted, *my back quite arched backward to stack weight on my edge.* But if I want to go just a little faster, it isn't enough to hold the edge and I start to lean my body inside the turn.
> 
> And here is the problem. I can't figure how to "hump" while bending legs. When I try to bring my pelvis forward, I "have to" straighten my legs.


I don't quite understand the bold part so I could be wrong. Are you bending on your back? If that's the case your weight is more on the heel edge and not helpful for toe side carve.

You achieve bending legs and tilting pelvis forward by dorsiflexion, which means to use the anterior muscle on your shin and raise your foot to pull your toes closer to your shin. By doing that you effectively get a bendy lower body that can both absorb chatter and apply pressure on toe edge. 

It's really common for people to not know how much pressure they actually need to put against their boot's tongues just to achieve proper neutral stance. And it's even harder when you have stiff boots too.

But good news is our body is structured in a way that it's much easier to master toe side carve than heelside. So give it some time and you will be there.


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## SlvrDragon50 (Mar 25, 2017)

Grunky said:


> Yeah, I know for video but don't have any and not sure I'll have the opportunity to make one before next season...
> 
> I'm pretty sure I have flexibility problems :grin:
> I tried an introduction to Yoga for old and newbs yesterday... and clearly I'm as flexible as a plank :laugh2:


If you know you have flexibility problems then that's where you need to start. Use the off season to develop strength and flexibility. Some easy goals:

1) Squat parallel 
1.5) Squat body weight parallel
2) Touch toes
3) Lots of core exercises


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## Grunky (Mar 21, 2019)

LALUNE said:


> I don't quite understand the bold part so I could be wrong. Are you bending on your back? If that's the case your weight is more on the heel edge and not helpful for toe side carve.


Not bending. I'm not native english speaker so quite complicated to explain. But when humping, I've seen in a vid (maybe creepy basement vid, not sure) arching slightly the back help to keep alignment. But don't focus on this point, I think you pointed something later.




> You achieve bending legs and tilting pelvis forward by dorsiflexion, which means to use the anterior muscle on your shin and *raise your foot to pull your toes closer to your shin*. By doing that you effectively get a bendy lower body that can both absorb chatter and apply pressure on toe edge.


The bold part is interesting!
I try to figure it out in my head. From one side, I clearly see that getting the toes closer to the shin, I can tilt pelvis and also get more angle on the board.
But on the other side... I don't get how to pull my toes closer to the shin on a toe side carve. It's probably one of the things I do wrong, but I push with my toes to engage my edge and raise the heels. I get that the board angulation would increase by pulling my toes to the shin, but on the other side I imagine my heels would get lower and reduce the angulation and even risk to catch edge. Could you detail more please? I'll keep trying to think about that!




SlvrDragon50 said:


> If you know you have flexibility problems then that's where you need to start. Use the off season to develop strength and flexibility. Some easy goals:
> 1) Squat parallel
> 1.5) Squat body weight parallel
> 2) Touch toes
> 3) Lots of core exercises


Yes! This is why I asked also exercises for the off season. I started Yoga yesterday because I think for starter it's quite soft since I'm very rusty. 
I also plan cycling, and I think about buying a balance board. There are a lot on the market and don't really know which one are worth it...


By the way, thanks both of you for the help! It's really appreciated. Unfortunately, I think the season is quite ended where I live... the next days are rain, rain, and some more rain :frown:


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## Snowdaddy (Feb 2, 2018)

Grunky said:


> And here is the problem. I can't figure how to "hump" while bending legs. When I try to bring my pelvis forward, I "have to" straighten my legs. If I bend my legs, I "have to" bend at the waist, leading to not enough board angulation, and edge unweighting, and then skidding). If I "hump" I have to straighten the legs. I can't figure out how to dissociate the knees form the hip on this particular move.
> 
> I don't get the movement/position to have on toeside while having knees really bent (or at least what I feel to be really bent). At least while static I can have a slight idea of it, but in motion on the board.... In the creepy basement vid, the pelvis motion is visible from what I understand as "neutral vertical stance", meaning slightly bent, but not highly bent as when I just unweighted and switched to toe side.
> 
> What kind of exercises, or visualisation of the movement could help me with this motion?


The direct leverage against your bindings and boards are you lower legs. So whatever your body posture above your knees, it might help thinking about pushing your knees forward and into the snow. Naturally, your knees should not be straight while doing this.

You can test this barefoot. Put your hands on a kitchen counter or against a table. Then bend your knees with you back in an upright position and push your knees forward and down. As you push your knees forward you will move the weight onto the balls of your feet and your pelvis will follow. So it's not your feet pushing against the board, but your lower legs pushing against the bindings. The same motion can be initialized by pushing your pelvis forward. For me personally it's more of a knee movement, even if the balance resides within the mass center around the middle of the body.


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## LALUNE (Feb 23, 2017)

Grunky said:


> I try to figure it out in my head. From one side, I clearly see that getting the toes closer to the shin, I can tilt pelvis and also get more angle on the board.
> But on the other side... I don't get how to pull my toes closer to the shin on a toe side carve. It's probably one of the things I do wrong, but I push with my toes to engage my edge and raise the heels. I get that the board angulation would increase by pulling my toes to the shin, but on the other side I imagine my heels would get lower and reduce the angulation and even risk to catch edge. Could you detail more please? I'll keep trying to think about that!


You push your shin towards your boots then flex your toe instead of pushing your toe to "grip" the snow, it's a combination of angulation (flexing toes) plus inclination(shin knee towards the toe edge).

You can carve by pushing your toes ok (plantar flexion) but this loses ability to absorb bumps.


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## speedjason (May 2, 2013)

You are not arcing the back, You are bending your knees and stacking the weight over the edge. The more you bend you knees, the more you can stand that edge up and carve at higher speed.
The problem I see most people with toe edge is legs too straight.
Also leaning is in relation to speed. As a beginner you are not gonna lean much because you are not comfortable with speed.


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## timmytard (Mar 19, 2009)

You're putting too much thought into it.

It'll come to ya, don't worry.

What you NEED to do is get a longboard.
A skateboard, but not one of those tiny little ones that you see guys riding around doing kickflips 'n shit.

You need to get a big ole long one.
Doesn't even need to have a kick tail.

You just want to do the carving part.
if you get one of those & start riding it around whenever you can.
Even if you don't have hills where you are it'll still work.
And if you do have hills, haha don't go to the top.

You'll shit your pants & think you're gonna die, when you start going way too fast to stop or even jump off.
Trust me on that one haha.:blahblah:

I went to the very top of this hill.
It's famous for being able to crack the 100km/h mark.
Never thought to tighten the trucks up, until about 4 seconds into it.
But @ that point I was already going way too fast to stop or even jump off.
I heard a little voice in the back of my head say "What have you done?"
This was the most terrifying thing I think I've ever done to myself.
And it got more terrifying as I went down, it seemed like about half an hour.
In reality it was maybe 30-40 seconds.
I've gone down it since, but NEVER from the top again. 
[ame]https://vimeo.com/30238073[/ame]

Ride it around all summer & when next winter rolls around.
You will be amazed @ how awesome you are compared to how you used to be on a snowboard.

You'll think you'll be going pro, you'll have improved so much, without even riding a snowboard


TT


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## Grunky (Mar 21, 2019)

Thanks everyone for the advces!




Snowdaddy said:


> The direct leverage against your bindings and boards are you lower legs. So whatever your body posture above your knees, it might help thinking about pushing your knees forward and into the snow. Naturally, your knees should not be straight while doing this.
> 
> You can test this barefoot. Put your hands on a kitchen counter or against a table. Then bend your knees with you back in an upright position and push your knees forward and down. As you push your knees forward you will move the weight onto the balls of your feet and your pelvis will follow. So it's not your feet pushing against the board, but your lower legs pushing against the bindings. The same motion can be initialized by pushing your pelvis forward. For me personally it's more of a knee movement, even if the balance resides within the mass center around the middle of the body.


For the first part. I tried to not focus on the foot but the shins and knees. I bent my knees almost as much as I could and tried to pushing them forward into the snow. But I think instead of humping I leaned and crashed.

The second part I totally get it. While static no problem doing this, but in motion on the board it's not the same.....




LALUNE said:


> You push your shin towards your boots then flex your toe instead of pushing your toe to "grip" the snow, it's a combination of angulation (flexing toes) plus inclination(shin knee towards the toe edge).
> 
> You can carve by pushing your toes ok (plantar flexion) but this loses ability to absorb bumps.


Pushing shins forward, I already do that. First part of the motion. It's the fexing the toe which bothers me when I think of it.
If I do the exercise from Snowdaddy. I push my knees forward and down, my pelvis raise and all my weight is on the balls of my feet. If I want to bend my knees more and get them even lower, at one point my ankles can't flex more and I have to raise my heels. I stand on the balls of my feet and if I try to get even more knees forward I almost stand on my toes. Then I don't get how to flex my toes, it feels like I'm naturally gripping with them.
It's probably flexibility or not been used to work with these parts of the feet and I need to work more on them...




speedjason said:


> You are not arcing the back, You are bending your knees and stacking the weight over the edge. The more you bend you knees, the more you can stand that edge up and carve at higher speed.
> The problem I see most people with toe edge is legs too straight.
> Also leaning is in relation to speed. As a beginner you are not gonna lean much because you are not comfortable with speed.


If I just bend my knees, my weight is still stacked on the center of the board. For heel side I just sit, or dump to move the weight to the edge, but for toe side I don't manage yet to hump. Then instead I lean... and leaning without speed we all know the results!




timmytard said:


> You're putting too much thought into it.
> 
> It'll come to ya, don't worry.
> 
> ...


Yep, I think I overthink it. But this is how I learn new things. I have to fully understand before beeing able to put in motion. It's long and not effortless, but usually when I get it it's day and night!
I thought about longboard but had a bad experience with skateboarding younger.... It kind of freezes me... But I'll maybe give it a new try!


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## BurtonAvenger (Aug 14, 2007)

Not going to read anyone's responses. It's ankle flexion. You're not steering from the ankle and in turn that's not driving the knee inwards to center flex the board which in turn is causing you to not know how to throw your pelvis into the carve. Learn how to flex the ankle more, which in turn will help you learn how to flex the knee into the center of the board, which will then show you you how to throw your pelvis into it.


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## Snowdaddy (Feb 2, 2018)

Grunky said:


> For the first part. I tried to not focus on the foot but the shins and knees. I bent my knees almost as much as I could and tried to pushing them forward into the snow. But I think instead of humping I leaned and crashed.
> 
> The second part I totally get it. While static no problem doing this, but in motion on the board it's not the same.....


So don't hump so much on the slopes 

I mean if you lean and crash you are either leaning too much or you don't have enough centripetal force because you're going too slow or too long radius turn? If you just lean over and you don't have anything holding you up you are going to crash. Unless your season is over I'd suggest you just go out and try different speeds and turns starting with low angle tilt and working your way up.

It's at least somewhat about knowing your board and how it turns.


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## Grunky (Mar 21, 2019)

BurtonAvenger said:


> Not going to read anyone's responses. It's ankle flexion. You're not steering from the ankle and in turn that's not driving the knee inwards to center flex the board which in turn is causing you to not know how to throw your pelvis into the carve. Learn how to flex the ankle more, which in turn will help you learn how to flex the knee into the center of the board, which will then show you you how to throw your pelvis into it.


Thanks! It's true I focus more on knees. I'll try to work on that.






Snowdaddy said:


> So don't hump so much on the slopes
> 
> I mean if you lean and crash you are either leaning too much or you don't have enough centripetal force because you're going too slow or too long radius turn? If you just lean over and you don't have anything holding you up you are going to crash. Unless your season is over I'd suggest you just go out and try different speeds and turns starting with low angle tilt and working your way up.
> 
> It's at least somewhat about knowing your board and how it turns.


Haha yeah, I think it's mostly practice and finding the good range of motion, I probably am too brutal when shifting weight instead of beeing smooth. 
With low speed/low angle if I really focus, I manage to have a clean carve, but compared to my heelside, there is something that doesn't feel right. If I get a little more speed, it ends up skidding. 

I probably just need more practice and work on my flexibility but all of you gave me good points I can work on! Maybe I'll be able to have 1 or 2 half days on the slopes but with the weather forecast here in Quebec... it's not really sure... I'll prepare during the off season and take lessons next!


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## Snowdaddy (Feb 2, 2018)

Grunky said:


> Thanks! It's true I focus more on knees. I'll try to work on that.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Since you don't have a video it's all just guessing of course.

This video is good for talking about edge control and balance through the turn.

https://snowboardaddiction.com/blogs/intermediate-riding/round-smooth-turns


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## chomps1211 (Mar 30, 2011)

TL;DR all the replies. 

Here is a video that _clearly_ shows how you shift your hips/pelvis forward while keeping your knees bent. 

...and while I am no carving expert! (I suck in fact,...) I can attest to the fact that when you are in your average, sucky, toe side, half assed carved turn? If you shift your hips forward mid turn as described in this vid you will _*definitely*_ notice a difference in how your edge responds. 

Skip ahead to 1:25 in this vid to see what we're talking about. 

link:


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## Grunky (Mar 21, 2019)

Yes I know that without a video it doesn't help, still you and the others already gave advices and things to work on!

Thanks for the link, I'll watch it at home after work.
@chomps thanks too! I'll watch it tonigt!


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## Scalpelman (Dec 5, 2017)

I practice humping off the hill. It’s much more comfortable that way. 

So I’m thinking about how I carve, which I feel I’ve mastered pretty well. I’m bending knees at initiation, straightening as I push through the end of the arc while fucking the snow at the end to pop out and get heelside. Or you can go dance with a dolphin.


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## timmytard (Mar 19, 2009)

Grunky said:


> Thanks everyone for the advces!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Skateboarding & longboarding are two totally different things.
Forget about whatever skateboarding you've done in the past.

This is land carving, that's it.
It'll teach you beautiful carving form.


TT


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## Grunky (Mar 21, 2019)

timmytard said:


> Skateboarding & longboarding are two totally different things.
> Forget about whatever skateboarding you've done in the past.
> 
> This is land carving, that's it.
> ...


Ok, I'll maybe give it a try... there are lots of shops in Montréal... but don't know where to practice. I'll have to go dig information!


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## Snowdaddy (Feb 2, 2018)

Grunky said:


> Ok, I'll maybe give it a try... there are lots of shops in Montréal... but don't know where to practice. I'll have to go dig information!


Wear knee pads.........


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## Paxford (Jan 7, 2019)

TimmyTard is right on. There are other ways to learn, complicated discussions of humping the snow, video's etc. but if you can properly ride a longboard skate at a high level that'll translate to snow very well. 

Get a deck 36-42 inches long to start. Trucks are VERY important if you want it to feel like snowboarding. Get Gullwing Sidewinder 2's or Revenge trucks. 

Once you have that mastered get a Carver brand skateboard sized to you, somewhere in the 26-32 inch range. The magic is in the Carver trucks, but you aren't ready for them until you skate really well. Once you have that dialed you'll be doing turns on your snowboard you didn't even know existed.


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## timmytard (Mar 19, 2009)

Paxford said:


> TimmyTard is right on. There are other ways to learn, complicated discussions of humping the snow, video's etc. but if you can properly ride a longboard skate at a high level that'll translate to snow very well.
> 
> Get a deck 36-42 inches long to start. Trucks are VERY important if you want it to feel like snowboarding. Get Gullwing Sidewinder 2's or Revenge trucks.
> 
> Once you have that mastered get a Carver brand skateboard sized to you, somewhere in the 26-32 inch range. The magic is in the Carver trucks, but you aren't ready for them until you skate really well. Once you have that dialed you'll be doing turns on your snowboard you didn't even know existed.


Yeah haha do all that.
But if for some reason you're unable to do all that?

If you have to make one out of plywood.
Anything will be better than nothing at all.

That vid of the hill I posted.
I rode my homemade longboard down it, @ over 100km/h.

I couldn't afford a nice new longboard & fancy trucks.

Found a pair of longboard trucks attached to a popsicle stick skateboard for free on Craigslist.
Then made the deck with what I already had.
It did the trick.

From there I got better stuff.
And the board I made was way, WAY better than the store bought one I have now.

I'll give you a hint where to ride.
KK ready.......
On the fuckin' street dude haha.
Not in bushes in mud.

It's the carving motion, that's what you're after.

Maybe search for a Freebord.
They're pretty damn sweet.

For any deck you choose to ride, also get gloves.
And glue some chopped up pieces of cutting board to the fingers.


TT


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## Mig Fullbag (Apr 15, 2014)

Paxford said:


> TimmyTard is right on. There are other ways to learn, complicated discussions of humping the snow, video's etc. but if you can properly ride a longboard skate at a high level that'll translate to snow very well.
> 
> Get a deck 36-42 inches long to start. Trucks are VERY important if you want it to feel like snowboarding. Get Gullwing Sidewinder 2's or Revenge trucks.
> 
> Once you have that mastered get a Carver brand skateboard sized to you, somewhere in the 26-32 inch range. The magic is in the Carver trucks, but you aren't ready for them until you skate really well. Once you have that dialed you'll be doing turns on your snowboard you didn't even know existed.


Sidewinders, Revenge and Carver trucks might be a little fun on flat at first, but are far from the ideal truck setup to carve hills. They pretty much suck and are highly unstable when you start reaching running speeds. You can carve much better at any speed on well tuned RKP trucks (regular "longboard" trucks), or a specific slalom skateboarding setup.


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## Rip154 (Sep 23, 2017)

You just gotta practice humping more. The lift lines would be a good place to start.


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## Paxford (Jan 7, 2019)

Mig Fullbag said:


> Sidewinders, Revenge and Carver trucks might be a little fun on flat at first, but are far from the ideal truck setup to carve hills. They pretty much suck and are highly unstable when you start reaching running speeds.


I agree with your comment as it relates to high speed downhill skateboarding, but you've missed the point. Nothing "sucks" about sidewinders or carver trucks unless you are using them incorrectly. You can get that feeling of carving and proper body positioning without going beyond the limits of the trucks. The OP's trying to learn how to carve better on a snowboard. They are not an experienced downhill skateboarder looking for a precision truck to hold up at 60 mph. Neither am I. I don't wear a helmet, leathers, gloves, etc. I'm not trying to set speed records, I'm advising the OP how to replicate the motions of snowboarding (and surfing) while skating.

All you need is a small hill on a sector 9 with sidewinders in order to carve. The hill just has to be big enough so that as you carve you don't rub off all your speed. That's not much of a hill. You can do it on even less incline if you have a decent tailwind. Your carving will improve.

The Carver skateboard should NEVER be used for serious downhill, unless you have a deathwish. Go pump a bit and rip some driveways. Your turning in the pocket will improve. Your flat-basing will improve (because you'll rarely be flat-basing anymore!). Your slashes will improve. Your flow will improve.

You can do all this at relatively low speed, no need to bomb massive hills.


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## Mig Fullbag (Apr 15, 2014)

Mig Fullbag said:


> Sidewinders, Revenge and Carver trucks might be a little fun on flat at first, but are far from the ideal truck setup to carve hills. They pretty much suck and are highly unstable when you start reaching *running speeds*. You can carve much better *at any speed *on well tuned RKP trucks (regular "longboard" trucks), or a specific slalom skateboarding setup.





Paxford said:


> I agree with your comment as it relates to high speed downhill skateboarding, but you've missed the point. Nothing "sucks" about sidewinders or carver trucks unless you are using them incorrectly. You can get that feeling of carving and proper body positioning without going beyond the limits of the trucks. The OP's trying to learn how to carve better on a snowboard. They are not an experienced downhill skateboarder looking for a precision truck to hold up at 60 mph. Neither am I. I don't wear a helmet, leathers, gloves, etc. I'm not trying to set speed records, I'm advising the OP how to replicate the motions of snowboarding (and surfing) while skating.
> 
> All you need is a small hill on a sector 9 with sidewinders in order to carve. The hill just has to be big enough so that as you carve you don't rub off all your speed. That's not much of a hill. You can do it on even less incline if you have a decent tailwind. Your carving will improve.
> 
> ...


Nowhere in my comment is high speed downhill skateboarding mentioned. Running speed is not high speed, unless you are a superhuman. I have been carving on skateboards for the past 45 years and introduced dozens and dozens of people to it over the years and helped them with their setups. Any setup mounted with double kingpin trucks or torsion trucks has a tendency to oversteer from the rear and break traction. It is too easy for a beginner to make them turn too deeply at whatever speed they are going, and loose the rear. The back truck just does not follow the front one in a carved turn. Many truck options out there can be easily tuned to carve much better, and follow the rider's progress with just a change of bushings and/or wedges.


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## Grunky (Mar 21, 2019)

Hi guys! Don't know why but I didn't receive notifications...

Practice in the street, yes, but to be honest, I'd rather find a clean flat space to pratice the basics before going in the busy, bumpy, full of potholes, end of winter streets of Montreal 

For starter, I think I'll go with a basic longboard, just to see if I like it, and then I'll see if I want to upgrade.
I already have a lot of rollerblading and cycling planned, so not sure I'll have lots of time for longboarding, but sure I'll give it a try...

I tried a last day snowboarding but it was so bad. Long ice patches followed by slush braking turning to water ponds... left after 2 hours of just trying to get to the end of each slope in one piece


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## wrathfuldeity (Oct 5, 2007)

OH that's the fun part...pond skimming into the lift line.

humping, knee pads....ehmm creepy basement stuff


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## Grunky (Mar 21, 2019)

Pond skimming is the fun part, true!
The far less fun is the spotless ice patch between two ponds or the instantly stopping you pile of slush


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