# Snowboard training and the stigma surrounding it?



## SnowMotion (Oct 8, 2010)

Hi
I am a snowboard coach and for the last decade I have been working on bringing some of the tools and training methods used with pros to everyday riders. While growing up in snowboarding and then even more as a coach I run into a lot of people that act out against the idea of training on a snowboard. So this thread is to get to the bottom of this. 

From my angle you can learn so much and on a quicker and safer time line if you train. 

My question for everyone is, if you are interested in or against training and why?

To make somethings clear before anyone rips me a new one, I own a coaching business. Yes this is market research for me.

Now you may rip me a new one:laugh2:


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## lab49232 (Sep 13, 2011)

SnowMotion said:


> Hi
> I am a snowboard coach and for the last decade I have been working on bringing some of the tools and training methods used with pros to everyday riders. While growing up in snowboarding and then even more as a coach I run into a lot of people that act out against the idea of training on a snowboard. So this thread is to get to the bottom of this.
> 
> From my angle you can learn so much and on a quicker and safer time line if you train.
> ...


Stigma? You think there's a stigma in training? Really?

Correct me if I'm wrong here but training in your method is going to the be the equivilant of going to the gym basically. And going to the gym isn't hated because of stigma, it's hated because people don't like taking time out of their day to work out. Now you need to find someone who both wants to work out and wants to snowboard and is willing to dedicate their workout time specifically to snowboard exercises. There's no stigma, there's just a small group of people willing to maintain a solid exercise routine and dedicate it to snowboarding. 

Lots of highschool kids love basketball, but outside the dedicated intense players most of them would rather play pickup at the local court than shoot free throws or lift weights. And snowboarding is a FAR smaller market than basketball players. It's pretty simple.


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## SnowMotion (Oct 8, 2010)

lab49232 said:


> Stigma? You think there's a stigma in training? Really?
> 
> Correct me if I'm wrong here but training in your method is going to the be the equivilant of going to the gym basically. And going to the gym isn't hated because of stigma, it's hated because people don't like taking time out of their day to work out. Now you need to find someone who both wants to work out and wants to snowboard and is willing to dedicate their workout time specifically to snowboard exercises. There's no stigma, there's just a small group of people willing to maintain a solid exercise routine and dedicate it to snowboarding.
> 
> Lots of highschool kids love basketball, but outside the dedicated intense players most of them would rather play pickup at the local court than shoot free throws or lift weights. And snowboarding is a FAR smaller market than basketball players. It's pretty simple.


This I understand. But I am actually talking about training with trampolines, airbags, jib blocks, and practice boards. As well as training on the mountain towards actual tricks and performance techniques. What I mean by the stigma is the riders who literally bash people training on the mountain because they believe it is the downfall of the sport.

That being said I hate working out in a gym even if it makes me a better snowboarder :embarrased1:


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## Rip154 (Sep 23, 2017)

It hinders creativity and style. It brainwashes impressionable kids to think that is the only way, and that they are better than everyone else because of it. It's a machine to create elitist asshats with parents who want to live their dream of olympic glory through their kids, and buys lotsa overpriced standard snowboards, which again funds the development of fun for the rest of us.


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## RHSTi (Jan 8, 2019)

Hey,
I noticed that you are based in Brooklyn. I would love to check up your place. 
Where you at? and what type of training are you talking?
I would love to train on Mt or Off Mt just to be good at it, and personally, I go to the gym regularly.
I am fairly confident to say that doing squat and other low body exercise definitely help you ride better and safer.


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## SnowMotion (Oct 8, 2010)

Rip154 said:


> It hinders creativity and style. It brainwashes impressionable kids to think that is the only way, and that they are better than everyone else because of it. It's a machine to create elitist asshats with parents who want to live their dream of olympic glory through their kids, and buys lotsa overpriced standard snowboards, which again funds the development of fun for the rest of us.


Ok I understand this, But I go out of my way to tell people there is no wrong way to snowboard if your having fun. Olympics is a pipe dream that very few competitive snowboarders will ever reach. I coach all riders with goals of being better not goals of glory. 

This is what Im trying to figure out. How do we open the doors of training to everyone that wants to progress not just the rich parents and their kids?


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## SnowMotion (Oct 8, 2010)

RHSTi said:


> Hey,
> I noticed that you are based in Brooklyn. I would love to check up your place.
> Where you at? and what type of training are you talking?
> I would love to train on Mt or Off Mt just to be good at it, and personally, I go to the gym regularly.
> I am fairly confident to say that doing squat and other low body exercise definitely help you ride better and safer.


Having a facility of our own is the next big step for us. But we currently run a class in Gowanus and travel to any resort within 5 hours of the city. PM me for more info. Im trying to keep the plugs to a minimum here.


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## lab49232 (Sep 13, 2011)

SnowMotion said:


> This I understand. But I am actually talking about training with trampolines, airbags, jib blocks, and practice boards. As well as training on the mountain towards actual tricks and performance techniques. What I mean by the stigma is the riders who literally bash people training on the mountain because they believe it is the downfall of the sport.
> 
> That being said I hate working out in a gym even if it makes me a better snowboarder :embarrased1:


I understand what you meant, well maybe not airbags, I don't think theres many people in the world who are passing up a chance to hit a bag if it's free. My point is Jib blocks, practice boards, any time not on the mountain is the equivalent of lifting weighs or running to train for basketball. Same with on mountain training short of actually trying tricks and jumps and riding. Most people just want to snowboard, training simply isn't fun in most any activity sport, mental challange, etc. 

As for actual bashing people who do, I don't think anybody gets bashed for on mountain training if it's actually riding. Mainly because, well riding is practice. If you're referring to people who bash hiring a personal trainer and such, well two things. A: It's the same as the stigma for anyone with a personal trainer unless you're a pro it's a little posh. B: Why be on a jib block or a tramp to be better at snowboarding when you could literally BE snowboarding and getting better? Whats more important doing a fun leisure activity less but being better at it, or just doing the leisure activity as much as possible. 

I'm not gonna go train to go bowling, im gnna just go bowling. People judge guys who practice their fly fish casting in their yard, kind of the same thing


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## neni (Dec 24, 2012)

No stigma, just not the purpose of most. For the najority, snowboarding is a _recreational_ activity. Recreation != training.

Besides that, not even those who are willing to train have the same thing in mind. Like... I do train for "snowboarding"...i.e. strengthen legs, core, lungs n heart... but I can't imagine what a trampolin could help with my understanding of what snowboarding is. And so your target group shrinks...


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## SnowMotion (Oct 8, 2010)

lab49232 said:


> I understand what you meant, well maybe not airbags, I don't think theres many people in the world who are passing up a chance to hit a bag if it's free. My point is Jib blocks, practice boards, any time not on the mountain is the equivalent of lifting weighs or running to train for basketball. Same with on mountain training short of actually trying tricks and jumps and riding. Most people just want to snowboard, training simply isn't fun in most any activity sport, mental challange, etc.
> 
> As for actual bashing people who do, I don't think anybody gets bashed for on mountain training if it's actually riding. Mainly because, well riding is practice. If you're referring to people who bash hiring a personal trainer and such, well two things. A: It's the same as the stigma for anyone with a personal trainer unless you're a pro it's a little posh. B: Why be on a jib block or a tramp to be better at snowboarding when you could literally BE snowboarding and getting better? Whats more important doing a fun leisure activity less but being better at it, or just doing the leisure activity as much as possible.
> 
> I'm not gonna go train to go bowling, im gnna just go bowling. People judge guys who practice their fly fish casting in their yard, kind of the same thing


This all makes sense. But my training here in the city is for people who cant get to the mountain everyday and want to make sure the time they do spend on the mountain is better. Also how do we remove the idea of training with a private coach as posh. Its just protecting the rest of your investment into the sport. 

... and your gonna have to try a jib block or jumping on a tramp with a practice board before you think its not fun. Maybe its just me but I love doing a method on the snow or the tramp!


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## SnowMotion (Oct 8, 2010)

neni said:


> No stigma, just not the purpose of most. For the najority, snowboarding is a _recreational_ activity. Recreation != training.
> 
> Besides that, not even those who are willing to train have the same thing in mind. Like... I do train for "snowboarding"...i.e. strengthen legs, core, lungs n heart... but I can't imagine what a trampolin could help with my understanding of what snowboarding is. And so your target group shrinks...


Sorry I should have been more specific. Though the trampoline is a great core workout we use it to gain aerial awareness and practice different grabs, spins, and flips.

I believe for most riders with goals in the park or out can progress faster and safer with a coach. To this end Im curious how to communicate that training can and should be set up wildly different based on the riders goals and inspirations on a board.


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## lab49232 (Sep 13, 2011)

SnowMotion said:


> This all makes sense. But my training here in the city is for people who cant get to the mountain everyday and want to make sure the time they do spend on the mountain is better. Also how do we remove the idea of training with a private coach as posh. Its just protecting the rest of your investment into the sport.
> 
> ... and your gonna have to try a jib block or jumping on a tramp with a practice board before you think its not fun. Maybe its just me but I love doing a method on the snow or the tramp!


You can't make it not posh because as Neni and I are explaining, it IS posh. Snowboarding is a fun leisure activity. I get your point of "well if you can't snowboard today you can train now so you'll have more fun when you do snowboard tomorrow"

But snowboarding is fun for most not because they're good at it. It's fun because they are on the mountain, in snow, in mountains etc. Investing time and money in to training with a private instructor for an already expensive hobby that you do just for fun is literally the definition of posh.

You show me a kid railing through the park having a blast and I'll show you a kid haing just as much or more fun cruising through the trees he's lapped 100 times over this season already. Once you can snowboard well enough to have fun the extra enjoyment gained by progression is lessend and lessened. It's a pretty substantial bell curve. It's why lessons are great for people just starting but after that we tell them to just ride and have fun. I taught for years. Kids first day up was no fun without an instructor because they cant even stand. But teaching those kids, they are the ones who had fun by the end. The high end lessons I taught, the perfect my carving lessons and the like, there's just not the same return


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## benjinyc (Feb 24, 2017)

a decade ago, most pros just skateboarded in the off-season for training

I don't think it's the same today
here's jamie anderson trying to ollie

https://www.instagram.com/p/BIG_NBkAgOO/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

so yeah, the gymnastics/trampoline training might be a good thing for those that don't skateboard

there was def a stigma of 'trying too hard in snowboarding' in the 90s/early 00s… but since it's in the olympics now, I guess times have changed


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## SnowMotion (Oct 8, 2010)

lab49232 said:


> You can't make it not posh because as Neni and I are explaining, it IS posh. Snowboarding is a fun leisure activity. I get your point of "well if you can't snowboard today you can train now so you'll have more fun when you do snowboard tomorrow"
> 
> But snowboarding is fun for most not because they're good at it. It's fun because they are on the mountain, in snow, in mountains etc. Investing time and money in to training with a private instructor for an already expensive hobby that you do just for fun is literally the definition of posh.
> 
> You show me a kid railing through the park having a blast and I'll show you a kid haing just as much or more fun cruising through the trees he's lapped 100 times over this season already. Once you can snowboard well enough to have fun the extra enjoyment gained by progression is lessend and lessened. It's a pretty substantial bell curve. It's why lessons are great for people just starting but after that we tell them to just ride and have fun. I taught for years. Kids first day up was no fun without an instructor because they cant even stand. But teaching those kids, they are the ones who had fun by the end. The high end lessons I taught, the perfect my carving lessons and the like, there's just not the same return


I like this, now we are diving in. I agree with everything you're saying and its making me realize the different people on the hill. I my self am addicted to progression, though I love snowboarding its the fact that i will never master it that drives me the most. I don't care where people snowboard or what they are doing while they snowboard. I just want to help people progress. I am addicted to my clients progression as much as my own.

Also snowboarding is my life and I don't always remember that other people don't feel that way. I get what you mean about snowboarding being fun regardless of ability. I like to tell people I'm the worst snowboarder you will ever meet because of how long it took me to learn anything.

Another thing you brought up was cost. This one kills me the most. I want to offer my lessons to anyone for free but I also need to live. This sport has given me so much I want anyone who wants to give it a try to get that chance. So trying to create indoor opportunities to give people the feel of it before or between them heading to the Mt is one way of trying to make it more accessible. At least here in NYC.

I would love to continue this conversation if you would like to help me figure out ways to make it cheaper and easier for any level to get the fun and performance out of a lesson as those beginners did.


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## SnowMotion (Oct 8, 2010)

benjinyc said:


> a decade ago, most pros just skateboarded in the off-season for training
> 
> I don't think it's the same today
> here's jamie anderson trying to ollie
> ...


Wow she killed it! Ive been working my whole life on one skateboard trick called " the ollie" :grin:

I also account about 50% of the tricks I do on snow to trampoline work.


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## LALUNE (Feb 23, 2017)

lab49232 said:


> But snowboarding is fun for most not because they're good at it.


But snowboarding is definitely more fun when you are good at it:laugh2:


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## lab49232 (Sep 13, 2011)

SnowMotion said:


> I like this, now we are diving in. I agree with everything you're saying and its making me realize the different people on the hill. I my self am addicted to progression, though I love snowboarding its the fact that i will never master it that drives me the most. I don't care where people snowboard or what they are doing while they snowboard. I just want to help people progress. I am addicted to my clients progression as much as my own.
> 
> Also snowboarding is my life and I don't always remember that other people don't feel that way. I get what you mean about snowboarding being fun regardless of ability. I like to tell people I'm the worst snowboarder you will ever meet because of how long it took me to learn anything.
> 
> ...


I respect what you want to do. I respect you needing to charge for it if you do it. But at the end of the day the result is you can find clients but they will not be the normal snowboarder. I can go buy a balance board to play with at home, I can get my own tramp if I have a yard, for the casual rider that's gonna be it, that'll be more than enough and most of them will stop playing with their balance board after 2 weeks, just like with most exercise equipment. People like to progress but there's a reason the best are the best, they're willing and want to put in the time, effort and money to practice, hone and perfect. That's what separates them from the other 95%. The rest of us won't put in the time, effort, or sacrifice because the return on investment is not worth it for the casual rider and that's most snowboarders.

You have three options IMO to be brutally honest. 

1: Keep it small, accept a tiny client base and try and focus in on the more wealthy clients, the rich guy who has too much money and does that instead of guitar lessons or golf. Be the babysitter for kids of rich parents who can send their kids to you after school, etc, etc, etc. and survive off them

2: Try and separate yourself as an elite gym if you are REALLY good at what you do, take the gymnastics gym approach. Be like I can train you to excel and offer you rewards and talent if you're good enough that you will be able to compete if you're lucky. Then charge a premium to train those clients trying to make something of themselves

3: take the bouldering gym approach. Be an all around gym that happens to have some unique snowboarding stuff that maybe makes people come to you over all the other places and gyms and whatnot.

Your idea to convince the average rider to start training is the basic flaw lots of people make about something they are passionate about. The "I would do this and it obviously makes sense to me so others will get it and want to do it too" is how many a bad idea start. Not trying to tear it down, just make sure you understand your clients and have reasonable expectations of what it can be.


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## lab49232 (Sep 13, 2011)

LALUNE said:


> But snowboarding is definitely more fun when you are good at it:laugh2:


I'll correct that. Its more fun when you're *adequately* good at it.

When you move from adequate to high end enjoyment can actually falter. For example I happen to be a pretty solid Golfer and Snowboarder. Learning to be good was fun for a long time. However once I hit a certain level it stopped becoming fun and started becoming more frustrating. Mistakes, even minute ones began to frustrate me more than when I was just ok and enjoying myself. Hitting the green from 150 wasn't enough, I needed it with 15 feet and at the right spot. That 5 I got around may have looked clean but I felt my pre rotation or a slight hand drag and then things just become more frustrating. 

I absolutely stopped competitive and stopped focusing purely on progression and suddenly I was back to just having fun on the mountain or on the course. This was advice from other people and it turns out is a common theme among people who get to certain levels. And that's why most people stop there and about 1% of people push on to be excellent and become the Michael Jordans, Tom Bradys and such. And why mid high end coaching is always rough and fora very select few in any sport and activity


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## SnowMotion (Oct 8, 2010)

lab49232 said:


> I respect what you want to do. I respect you needing to charge for it if you do it. But at the end of the day the result is you can find clients but they will not be the normal snowboarder. I can go buy a balance board to play with at home, I can get my own tramp if I have a yard, for the casual rider that's gonna be it, that'll be more than enough and most of them will stop playing with their balance board after 2 weeks, just like with most exercise equipment. People like to progress but there's a reason the best are the best, they're willing and want to put in the time, effort and money to practice, hone and perfect. That's what separates them from the other 95%. The rest of us won't put in the time, effort, or sacrifice because the return on investment is not worth it for the casual rider and that's most snowboarders.
> 
> You have three options IMO to be brutally honest.
> 
> ...


You are correct. I already have my clients and athletes. With a good flow of new people reaching out. But I also talk with a lot of what you call casual riders. They are the people who have asked for and motivated me to bring this level of coaching to everyone. I understand its not for everyone, but I think ( and it may be my undoing) that there is a shift happening toward casual riders wanting more on a snowboard and finding out that coaching will get them there.

As for people buying tramps and balance boards. I recommend it, there is never enough practice at something you love. But as someone who coached himself on a trampoline I know how hard it can be to know what to do or what to try next without a coach (or a massive online community:smile.


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## alx9898 (Jan 13, 2018)

SnowMotion said:


> Having a facility of our own is the next big step for us. But we currently run a class in Gowanus and travel to any resort within 5 hours of the city. PM me for more info. Im trying to keep the plugs to a minimum here.


Question about this. I'm just curious how you go about on mountain training at resorts. Have you taken any crap from the resorts that you are training people at? I wouldn't think most resorts would take kindly to unaffiliated instructors giving lessons for pay on their mountain. I would think they would see this as cutting into their revenue that they get from staffed instructors that work for the resort.


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## SnowMotion (Oct 8, 2010)

lab49232 said:


> I'll correct that. Its more fun when you're *adequately* good at it.
> 
> When you move from adequate to high end enjoyment can actually falter. For example I happen to be a pretty solid Golfer and Snowboarder. Learning to be good was fun for a long time. However once I hit a certain level it stopped becoming fun and started becoming more frustrating. Mistakes, even minute ones began to frustrate me more than when I was just ok and enjoying myself. Hitting the green from 150 wasn't enough, I needed it with 15 feet and at the right spot. That 5 I got around may have looked clean but I felt my pre rotation or a slight hand drag and then things just become more frustrating.
> 
> I absolutely stopped competitive and stopped focusing purely on progression and suddenly I was back to just having fun on the mountain or on the course. This was advice from other people and it turns out is a common theme among people who get to certain levels. And that's why most people stop there and about 1% of people push on to be excellent and become the Michael Jordans, Tom Bradys and such. And why mid high end coaching is always rough and fora very select few in any sport and activity


A good coach can help you navigate progression, expectations, and frustration while keeping the passion alive! I don't think competing is something that brings most people happiness but for some it does. I work with a lot of riders that push towards being better for nothing but there own enjoyment.


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## benjinyc (Feb 24, 2017)

alx9898 said:


> Question about this. I'm just curious how you go about on mountain training at resorts. Have you taken any crap from the resorts that you are training people at?


They don't really care here out East - most of the resorts here don't have instructors for freestyle specific

I taught privates for a few wealthy NYC clients' kids, wasn't an issue - one of the mountains even offered me a teaching position, there's not a huge demand for intermediate/advanced lessons tbh.


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## SnowMotion (Oct 8, 2010)

alx9898 said:


> Question about this. I'm just curious how you go about on mountain training at resorts. Have you taken any crap from the resorts that you are training people at? I wouldn't think most resorts would take kindly to unaffiliated instructors giving lessons for pay on their mountain. I would think they would see this as cutting into their revenue that they get from staffed instructors that work for the resort.


I never fail at getting asked that. So I will try to explain it in as few words as possible.

First it is not illegal to teach on a mountain. 

If you work for a mountain and tell people to hire you privately it is theft of service, that is illegal. 

But if you own a legal and insured business and are a certified coach it is much different. A lot of mountains have different policies but I have found almost all of them to enjoy us bringing our clients to their mountain. Some even offer me and my coaches free passes and my clients discounted ones. 

Almost every mt has multiple coaches on it that don't work there. They are only there to train on whatever elements that mt has.


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## alx9898 (Jan 13, 2018)

benjinyc said:


> They don't really care here out East - most of the resorts here don't have instructors for freestyle specific
> 
> I taught privates for a few wealthy NYC clients' kids, wasn't an issue - one of the mountains even offered me a teaching position, there's not a huge demand for intermediate/advanced lessons tbh.


That makes sense. The only reason I brought it up is I recently read an article in SKI mag that was about it. One story had a resort running a sting op on a guy advertising lessons on craigslist. Called the guy and booked a lesson. Had the cops waiting for him when he showed up. Sounded ridiculous, which is why I was curious.


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## lab49232 (Sep 13, 2011)

SnowMotion said:


> A good coach can help you navigate progression, expectations, and frustration while keeping the passion alive! I don't think competing is something that brings most people happiness but for some it does. I work with a lot of riders that push towards being better for nothing but there own enjoyment.


Correct, again I've been on both ends. I both have been a rider and student, and been a high end coach for a company and a resort so I know what you're trying to do and I know what a (good) instructor/coach can provide. You're set up in a great area for it to. TONS of people. Mountains a bit of a travel, lot's of money, etc etc etc. Id 100% recommend someone going for what you are setting up in probably an NYC or LA area. 

And again I hope it works out for you but be vary wary of making any kind of financial push towards growing expansively in the casual rider market. Resorts have generic lessons pretty well set up. Lessons at resorts just as an FYI (and I know what youre doing is different but hey it's free info) but usually broken down in to about 4 levels

Level 1: Basic beginner, we could close our eyes and book every opening and instructor all while insulting the customer if we wanted 
Level 2: These were kids usually trying to get to a level where they could start riding blues and good enough to enjoy the mountain in its full entirety

Those 2 levels make up roughly 90% of all lessons

Level 3: This was on a great week 7-8% of all lessons. And then most of the people in them were people who had a class bought for them or were part of school groups which made taking a lesson mandatory as part their weekly ski club trip. As a result most of the time they would be like we dont really want to be here so we'd just ride around with them for a while to fullfill their requirement and maybe make a simple suggestion on form here or there bu we were largely irrelevant to them.

Level 4: MAYBE we'd book one of these a day. these were Steeps, moguls, park, AGGRESSIVE terrain lessons. These were either one of the same type of people in level 3 or someone who was having problems with one exact type of thing and paid us for a lesson so they could figure out how to start working on it and figuring it out. 

And while you may go well that's a pay be lesson thing and such, we offered full season lesson passes, discounted and fairly affordable especially if added to your season pass. We sold some, a decent amount of those all purely to beginners and by week 4 even though the lesson was paid for people wouldn't even show up any more because they were good enough to have fun without them.


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## SnowMotion (Oct 8, 2010)

lab49232 said:


> Correct, again I've been on both ends. I both have been a rider and student, and been a high end coach for a company and a resort so I know what you're trying to do and I know what a (good) instructor/coach can provide. You're set up in a great area for it to. TONS of people. Mountains a bit of a travel, lot's of money, etc etc etc. Id 100% recommend someone going for what you are setting up in probably an NYC or LA area.
> 
> And again I hope it works out for you but be vary wary of making any kind of financial push towards growing expansively in the casual rider market. Resorts have generic lessons pretty well set up. Lessons at resorts just as an FYI (and I know what your'e doing is different but hey it's free info) but usually broken down in to about 4 levels
> 
> ...


Not sure where you're based out of but if you're ever on the east coast we should ride together.


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## lab49232 (Sep 13, 2011)

alx9898 said:


> That makes sense. The only reason I brought it up is I recently read an article in SKI mag that was about it. One story had a resort running a sting op on a guy advertising lessons on craigslist. Called the guy and booked a lesson. Had the cops waiting for him when he showed up. Sounded ridiculous, which is why I was curious.


Interesting, what law was being broken though unless he was lying about his credentials? The way we did it back in the day was work for the resort, but what you wanted were private request lessons where when the client books it they request you specifically be the one to teach it. If you got one of these the resort paid half of the fee straight to the instructor on top of normal wages and such. When these lessons are over $100 a pop easily thats serious cash. So after your lessons for the day you go to the bar on the mountain, post up next to a middle aged man you can tell is staying their with his family and kids, make friends and suddenyl when he talks about his kids riding or their lessons boom you're there with the oh man I could totally take care of them tomorrow. Id love to work with em, just give my name to the desk in the morning and I'll take care of you guys. Not theft of services and my wages for that lesson were increased 10 fold


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## alx9898 (Jan 13, 2018)

lab49232 said:


> Interesting, what law was being broken though unless he was lying about his credentials? The way we did it back in the day was work for the resort, but what you wanted were private request lessons where when the client books it they request you specifically be the one to teach it. If you got one of these the resort paid half of the fee straight to the instructor on top of normal wages and such. When these lessons are over $100 a pop easily thats serious cash. So after your lessons for the day you go to the bar on the mountain, post up next to a middle aged man you can tell is staying their with his family and kids, make friends and suddenyl when he talks about his kids riding or their lessons boom you're there with the oh man I could totally take care of them tomorrow. Id love to work with em, just give my name to the desk in the morning and I'll take care of you guys. Not theft of services and my wages for that lesson were increased 10 fold


Found the exact article I was referencing:

https://www.skimag.com/ski-performance/going-rogue-pirate-ski-instructors


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## poser (Mar 7, 2018)

I don’t perceive a stigma attached to coaching, however, the vast majority of training/exercise is sport specific: spending time on the trampoline will make you good at trampolining, not snowboarding. The only general fitness adaptation is strength. Skill based sports require lots of time developing the skill. I can see the benefit of sport specific coaching, especially for people who have yet to go through the process of developing a skill and have no frame of reference for developing a skill set (iim talking general population here, not pro or aspiring pro athletes). 

I use a coaching service for strength training and have a great working relationship with my coach. We review programming monthly and I upload videos of my worksets after each session and get feedback and evaluation on each video. This is the foundation of my athletic endeavors and having a coach maximizes my potential. 

When it comes to actually riding a snowboard, I base Improvement at the skill of snowboarding upon a social circle of riders who are better than me and by constantly challenging myself with more difficult and challenging terrain. In some sense, you are the average of the people you surround yourself with, so an assessment of your snowboarding social circle should give you some kind of feedback as to where you are skill wise. While I would certainly welcome any criticism of my riding from the mouth of a better, more experienced rider, the terrain, the people pushing me and a desire to constantly be better and perform at my highest level are the factors that serve as my snowboard “coach.” Having a strong body is the training foundation. 

With that in mind, I see no mystery in the progression of the non competitive rider *with an existing foundation*: be strong, show up, work hard, surround yourself with people who elevate you, constantly challenge yourself. Where a snowboarding coach comes into play for the non competitive rider would be for the person with no existing foundation of following a progression.


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## lab49232 (Sep 13, 2011)

SnowMotion said:


> Not sure where you're based out of but if you're ever on the east coast we should ride together.


Ahhh thankfully no longer. Grew up riding there, first taught in your great state of NY actually, learned in MI. Then moved to the wonderfullly deep snow and natural terrain of the PNW. I will say this though. Every season I find myself for at least a couple days missing the east coast groom. Not a joke, groomed runs out East are SERIOUSLY underappreciated, they know how to make some perfect carvable courderoy that western resorts just dont understand.


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## Rip154 (Sep 23, 2017)

What's needed for casual riders are more low end camps. With Baldface and similar venues being high end. Weekends with people of the same age looking for riding buddies and a good time. Go build a backcountry jump and let everyone try backflips and 3s and such, with a nice dinner and some partying in the evening. You would be more of an event manager than a coach. Sure you could throw some coaching in there, but there would be new people all the time, that already snowboards enough to consider a camp. There can be camps for different skill levels. There should be plenty of demand for this in NYC.

To be taken seriously or even be considered in a city setting drytraining for snowboarding, you need a foampit with a jump, either with a runin or a towin.


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## benjinyc (Feb 24, 2017)

lab49232 said:


> they know how to make some perfect carvable courderoy that western resorts just dont understand.


has _obviously_ never been to Deer Valley


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## f00bar (Mar 6, 2014)

I'd rather drink a beer than jump around on a tramp. Oh wait, let me rethink those words...


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## wrathfuldeity (Oct 5, 2007)

I don't have anything against training or coaching...and would love to do a camp, weekly on-hill coaching or even hit a tramp and foam pit a couple times a week. At least that is the grandiose delusion...however in reality I probably not do it due to the cost, lower benefit to risk ratio (at least for moi) and mostly due to my geezerily idea of why risk it beyond reasonable survival coach'n to get down the hill. But my motivation is the fun factor and trying not to damage myself so as to ride another day....but if I was a kid...it would be another matter. 

Now I can see the value for some younger person/kid that wants to rapidly progress, has their health insurance paid by others/mom/day and have not yet gained the concept of life beyond themselves. There is a coworker who's kid is 11yrs old is an elite level gymnast and just getting into skiing...anyway this kid has the athletic ability, parental support and body awareness to potentially do some crazy stuff on skies or a board. 

So methinks that there is a limited market...but its a matter of access and selling yourself.


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## drblast (Feb 28, 2017)

I would sign up for a snowboard training gym, especially in the summer. In the winter every free minute I have is on the mountain, but in the summer I don't have an equivalent warm weather sport I enjoy so I'd love to get on trampolines with some coaching to prepare for next winter.


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## f00bar (Mar 6, 2014)

Best way to grow the business would be to have it next to the yoga classes, with glass wall between the two.


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## Donutz (May 12, 2010)

I actually took something like this a couple of years ago. I signed up for private tramp/gym lessons. I explained to the instructor what I was doing it for, and he tried to put together a customized routine. I think it worked out fairly okay, considering that he was figuring it out as we went.

I had to drop it because the distance was screwing up my day, but if there was something closer, I'd definitely look at it.


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## lab49232 (Sep 13, 2011)

benjinyc said:


> has _obviously_ never been to Deer Valley


HAHA one of the only remaining two planker only resorts. Pretty sure mentioning a ski only resort on this forum is banned? No? :embarrased1:


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## Rip154 (Sep 23, 2017)

lab49232 said:


> HAHA one of the only remaining two planker only resorts. Pretty sure mentioning a ski only resort on this forum is banned? No? :embarrased1:


We do need something to poach..


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## Kevington (Feb 8, 2018)

I just finished 6 months of physiotherapy for torn meniscus and general cartilage degradation in my knees. I live in Denmark where this treatment is free. Basically injury focused strength training for the legs, core and lower back along with balance and stability. Also a lot of flexibility work, particularly hips and low back. Got out on the mountain for the first time since and the difference was very noticeable. More power, more control, less pain. I've been snowboarding for 25 years and really wish I'd thought about training before. In fact I'm pretty sure if I had done some basic training like this earlier then I would not have the knee and low back problems I have today. Lots of people who don't live in the mountains but travel there when they can do not ride regularly enough to really develop a physique which allows their technique and , for want of a better way to put it, expression to flourish. A group class covering this stuff would be great for city folk. If you don't ride for two months then go hard for ten days on a trip your body gets wrecked. Also you spend the first days just getting warmed up. By the last days you can do stuff you should've been able to do on the first day. For the weekend warrior/two trips a year type a weekly class instead of yoga, spinning, whatever would be affordable and beneficial. I would go to one. I skate all year round but it does not give me the leg strength I now realise I need. It does however make me better at snowboarding in a way that no amount of training ever could!


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## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

SnowMotion said:


> Hi
> I am a snowboard coach and for the last decade I have been working on bringing some of the tools and training methods used with pros to everyday riders. While growing up in snowboarding and then even more as a coach I run into a lot of people that act out against the idea of training on a snowboard. So this thread is to get to the bottom of this.
> 
> From my angle you can learn so much and on a quicker and safer time line if you train.
> ...


Even after reading a few of the posts here... i still fail to see where's the "stigma" against training. Lots of pros/competition guys have coaches. Lots of beginners take lessons. Lots of intermediates take lessons and even some training.

To add to your answer pool:
No, I'm not interested in training; and no, I'm not against training.

If you or someone wants to train... fine. Go at it. If some people see the value and are willing to pay $ or spend the time exercising the specific muscle that will make their double triple flippity flip better and score bigger at their backyard or Olympic contest... then go at it.

I know people who are "passionate" about stuff. I am pretty passionate about stuff. Some people put in the hours, rack up the numbers and check off their goals one by one (not necessarily talking about snowboarding only). Can't say whether they are happier or having more fun than me or not...


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## Kenai (Dec 15, 2013)

This is certainly an interesting discussion, but I agree with the majority of people that there is no stigma to training. 

*We are mostly just lazy and cheap.* It is really the same reason most of us don’t have personal trainers and 6-packs. 

That is true for me even though I really, really want to pull a 360 and something like a wildcat, but I’m too old to just huck myself without the perfect setup. I am also the guy who bought the balance board and said I would use it more, but I can count on two hands how many times I used it in the off-season. I’m also like you in that when I am out riding I am constantly thinking of how to get better - I’m actually pretty bad at just going out and having fun. 

Anyway, if the price was right, you were the right guy, and I was in NYC, I’d hit you up for some coaching. But, I’m not in NYC so it’s not happening regardless of the other two. Also, I’m lazy and it sounds like a lot of effort.


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## SlvrDragon50 (Mar 25, 2017)

Some of the people I ride with find the idea of getting lessons to be an absolute scam and say "the mountain is your teacher". If I lived at the mountains and had all the time in the world, sure. But I spent just a few hours at Woodward Copper's Barn and learned far more than I ever would have in the same time on the slopes.

If you're actively trying to improve, I think it's silly to throw a stigma on training, especially if you don't have mountains easily accessible. Same reason why I lift weights. I'll take every advantage I can get to improve my riding. There's nothing fun about slamming down on the ground or rails. Why expose yourself to higher risk of injury if you don't have to?


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## Anais (Aug 14, 2016)

Kenai said:


> *We are mostly just lazy and cheap.* It is really the same reason most of us don’t have personal trainers and 6-packs.


:grin:lol, truth really hurt man. couldn't help but laughing my tears out. anyway, couldn't agree with u more, and I am certainly in that 'we' category...


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## Nivek (Jan 24, 2008)

TLDR;

I dont know if there has been any clarification but...


Depends on the training. If "this is exactly how you method, go do 10 methods" then fuck training. Snowboarding should be organic and personal. If "go to the gym 3 days a week and work on balance, core strength, strength training, and flexibility" then as long as you're not Seb Toots I highly encourage that. Cross training is good too. Go skate, ride a bike, run, climb, sail, surf, whatever. Be active and eat right. Just dont be an athlete, be a snowboarder. There's a difference.


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## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

So who's been training?

I had 3 beers and did a couple of kickflips and a boardslide on a skateboard yesterday. Ready for those triple corks now


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## lab49232 (Sep 13, 2011)

F1EA said:


> So who's been training?
> 
> I had 3 beers and did a couple of kickflips and a boardslide on a skateboard yesterday. Ready for those triple corks now


Oregon brewfest was this weekend, I tried 45 different beers, training my body how to live in pain.


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## sush1 (Sep 26, 2017)

If they had training in my area and it wasn't too expensive I'd do it. 

But i'd rather just snowboard if I had to choose between either.


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## kalev (Dec 17, 2013)

I grew up skating and moved into snowboarding in the late 90's. Back then, skating / snowboarding was an anti-establishment type thing - kind of an 'f-u' to organized sports, and any idea of 'making it in the world.' So if there was any stigma against training, that's likely where it came from (for me anyway).

Now to be fair, I didn't need any 'training' when I was 18 years old. We skated, walked, ran, snowboarded, swam everywhere. I was out of the house 98% of the day. 

Now I'm 37,work full-time, have a kid, a sedentary office job etc. 

Wondering if you might have success running a fall training camp for people like me who find it hard to get to the gym / work out etc. People who have some disposable income, and need some motivation to get their asses off the couch in late September / October. Kind of like those spring boot camps for people who want their 'beach bod' for summer. Could progress into skills based coaching as the program went on. 

Good luck either way!


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## DaveMcI (Aug 19, 2013)

Leg blasters with beer shotguns in between. But seriously, leg blasters until u almost puke is all u have to do.


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## Donutz (May 12, 2010)

"Training" could mean anything from a group lesson at your local hill to a week-long camp up on the Whistler glacier. The latter is way beyond me, even ignoring the cost and commitment of time. But lessons? How does that have a stigma?


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## drblast (Feb 28, 2017)

I've done the week-long camp at High Cascade on Mt Hood, and it was one of the best things I've ever done. We have a Facebook group of the people that went where we're planning to get together to ride during the winter and again next year. Part of the camp was an indoor skate park and trampoline training which was very helpful to a lot of that group, and would be something I'd do regularly if it existed near where I live. If there's a stigma attached to that I'm not seeing it.

Anything that could replicate that experience would be extremely welcome I think, even during the winter. There are gyms for specific sports like boxing, cross-fit gyms, etc. A snowboarding-specific gym would be a gym I might actually go to, especially if there were a bar near it.


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## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

I would train if training meant going to an indoor snowdome... but then that would be snowboarding and not training.


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## Craig64 (Jul 16, 2015)

I'm too old to train :wink:


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