# When did it become the norm to...?



## easton714 (Dec 28, 2011)

I just typed and lost a whole long post here and lost it all because it said I timed out while typing it. I've never had that happen anywhere before.

Anywho...

Quick background. I worked at a ski/board ship and rode for boardercross for Rossignol in a few middling midwestern competitions in the 97-01 timeframe. I am not an old codger asking this (I am 30) but I am genuinely interested.

When did it become the norm to ride with a negative stance angle on the back foot?

I never saw that riding just 10 years ago and we were not even allowed to install them in the shop that way.


For reasons that I wrote about in detail in the post that I lost, I am getting into the game again after being away for a while because of injury, college, job, and location, etc. because of, well, fixing the injury, and an upcoming Colorado relocation and family in the area.

I know I am new but I enjoy forums and hope to be around a while! Thanks!




Next question will be about the whole rocker thing. I don't get it - and the only person I got to try to explain it to me in a store probably flunked out of middle school.


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## SimonB (Oct 13, 2010)

I personally started riding duck stance in '93, when the 3D pattern came out. Makes riding switch a lot easier, but still entirely personal preference.

As for the rocker thing, you'll find lots of informations here: http://www.snowboardingforum.com/boards/37496-rocker-camber-everything-between.html

And Welcome to the forum!


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## easton714 (Dec 28, 2011)

Thanks!

So is it primarily a park/freestyle thing?

I rarely ride switch so I don't think that would benefit me. Physiologically, it might be better on the back knee, depending on how you ride (and how your feet turn naturally). I am trying to think about it scientifically (because I am a dork like that).

Our Ride Snowboards rep, back in the day, had a little demonstration with an aluminum snowboard that showed a significantly reduced toe-side pressure riding that way and actually told us we couldn't install them in the shop that way at risk of causing a warranty issue. Maybe it was BS but whenever someone asked for a negative stance, which was very rare at the time, we had to tell them to install them themselves or, occasionally, set the back foot to zero but still test everything and then tell them to switch it themselves.

I am not at home to check but I am almost certain my old Rossi binding disks don't even have negative numbers.

I might have to try it now. I always carry a collapsable screwdriver with me on the mountain!


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## BurtonAvenger (Aug 14, 2007)

Look at how you stand naturally, most people are duck foot.


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## Toecutter (Oct 11, 2009)

Warranty issue??? I wonder what was they were concerned might happen?

I don't know if it's primarily park or not. I see plenty of duck outside of the park. I started out with a forward stance but have gradually adjusted to 12deg ducked and I think it's much better overall for control. One's back leg gets less tired too.


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## LiveToRide (Dec 13, 2011)

Next question will be about the whole rocker thing. I don't get it - and the only person I got to try to explain it to me in a store probably flunked out of middle school.[/QUOTE]
^^^^lol^^^^
I can't offer anything on the negative stance.. its beyond me too. However I can offer some insight to the rocker... the rocker has resessed edges(imagine the bottom of a spoon just not as drastic). that just helps prevent edge catch... Hope that helps I can go further into it if your looking for more comprehensive explaination (part time board builder)


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## Nito (Oct 16, 2007)

Hi Easton,

Regarding duck stance; I also used to ride a forward stance. However, with the emergence of Rocker (and hybrid), I needed to widen my stance to engage the tip and tail. The only way for me to do this comfortably was to ride duck; this way my heels remained the same distance or a little wider while I engaged the tip and tail using my forefoot. The only problem I have with riding duck; it is harder to alpine carve. This is because my hips are now inline with the board; i.e. it is much easier to shift my weight and lose the balance point. Guess I need to do more ab work to keep my balance.

Why did I move to (hybrid) rocker; simple answer is catch free edges. Another benefit of rocker (and hybrid) float; i.e. I no longer have to load my backfoot to raise the nose of the board.

Finally, I used to have the same problem with timing out, until I used the preview button.

Hope this helps Nito


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## lonerider (Apr 10, 2009)

Hi, it is mainly a park / freestyle thing... Or more importantly a wannabe park/freestyle thing. Well that and it makes riding awitch a tiny bit easier.

As you mentioned having both feet forward gives you better pressure in your toeside edge.... But people prefer the duck stance as it feels more comfortable and the can pretend they are their favorite pro freestyle rider. Most people now a days don't really care about getting the most efficient turn (which is fine since it is all about having fun)

Look at boardercross riders like Seth westcott and Linda jacobellis (so?) And they still have forward stances. So do the Europeans and the Japanese (well more than us Americans)... Maybe they could be behind the curve... Or maybe...


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## lonerider (Apr 10, 2009)

BurtonAvenger said:


> Look at how you stand naturally, most people are duck foot.


by that reasoning... We should all be skiing since we naturally move with our hips, chest and head all pointing forward


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## easton714 (Dec 28, 2011)

Nito said:


> Hi Easton,
> 
> Regarding duck stance; I also used to ride a forward stance. However, with the emergence of Rocker (and hybrid), I needed to widen my stance to engage the tip and tail. The only way for me to do this comfortably was to ride duck; this way my heels remained the same distance or a little wider while I engaged the tip and tail using my forefoot. The only problem I have with riding duck; it is harder to alpine carve. This is because my hips are now inline with the board; i.e. it is much easier to shift my weight and lose the balance point. Guess I need to do more ab work to keep my balance.
> 
> ...



Okay....so is rocker-camber-rocker the same as "hybrid" rocker?

I like the idea about turning up the edges on contact but I like the camber in the middle (I think).

Is there a place that lists boards by shape? (probably not).

Any of the directionals by Venture, NS, or Lib Tech have this shape?

Thanks!


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## grafta (Dec 21, 2009)

BurtonAvenger said:


> Look at how you stand naturally, most people are duck foot.





lonerider said:


> by that reasoning... We should all be skiing since we naturally move with our hips, chest and head all pointing forward


Riding duck is easier on the knees. Ever tried doing a squat with both feet facing either left or right? You can't get very low (well I can't anyway) and (what would be) the back leg ankle ends up feeling pressured and at an weird angle. I'm talking extremes, but when you've got fucked kness like me, ducked is great :thumbsup:


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## Toecutter (Oct 11, 2009)

easton714 said:


> I like the idea about turning up the edges on contact but I like the camber in the middle (I think).


Rocker or hybrid does not necessarily mean turned up edges.


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## easton714 (Dec 28, 2011)

Toecutter said:


> Rocker or hybrid does not necessarily mean turned up edges.


Well, this is getting as clear as fog.

:dunno:

NS Premier looked promising but I have no idea anymore. I don't think I like the idea of rocker between the bindings.


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## fattrav (Feb 21, 2009)

easton714 said:


> Well, this is getting as clear as fog.
> 
> :dunno:
> 
> NS Premier looked promising but I have no idea anymore. I don't think I like the idea of rocker between the bindings.


Do you have the option of demo-ing a few different boards? That might put you onto the type of board your after. Really though, I went from riding a fairly stiff cambered board, to a mid-flex neversummer rocker camber and enjoy it so much. Camber underfoot and rocker in the middle is a great compromise as far as playfulness/nose float and popiness out of turns goes.


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## Toecutter (Oct 11, 2009)

v


easton714 said:


> Well, this is getting as clear as fog.
> 
> :dunno:
> 
> NS Premier looked promising but I have no idea anymore. I don't think I like the idea of rocker between the bindings.


Burton's kids' boards have their "Easyrider" design where the board vaguely resembles a spoon, but I don't know which adult boards do the same. You can have a hybrid board with tuned edges. Rocker describes how the tip and tail (and section in between), rather than the edges, bend up and down. [Edit: If you're familiar with anatomical terminology, rocker describes the bend up and down in the sagittal plane rather than in the frontal plane.]

Neversummer boards are awesome. I have a Premier and it's my primary board. No need to try to outhink the design at least until after you've tried it.


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## easton714 (Dec 28, 2011)

Toecutter said:


> v
> 
> Burton's kids' boards have their "Easyrider" design where the board vaguely resembles a spoon, but I don't know which adult boards do the same. You can have a hybrid board with tuned edges. Rocker describes how the tip and tail (and section in between), rather than the edges, bend up and down.
> 
> Neversummer boards are awesome. I have a Premier and it's my primary board. No need to try to outhink the design at least until after you've tried it.



Does the rocker profile really push you to your edges even if you don't want to be?

Strange question perhaps but my biggest pet peave with riding, especially on a big mountain, is running out of gas on the flat area between two lifts (or something) that necessitates the need to unhook your bindings. Rocker, unless I am misunderstanding reviews, seems to want to push you to an edge (rather than maintain high speed going straight on a flat base) which would seem to make that problem worse.


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## Toecutter (Oct 11, 2009)

easton714 said:


> Does the rocker profile really push you to your edges even if you don't want to be?
> 
> Strange question perhaps but my biggest pet peave with riding, especially on a big mountain, is running out of gas on the flat area between two lifts (or something) that necessitates the need to unhook your bindings. Rocker, unless I am misunderstanding reviews, seems to want to push you to an edge (rather than maintain high speed going straight on a flat base) which would seem to make that problem worse.


I find rocker-camber far easier to flat-base, and easier to handle overall. You don't often read about someone wanting to go back to camber once they've tried a hybrid. I think it's a huge improvement.


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## grafta (Dec 21, 2009)

easton714 said:


> Well, this is getting as clear as fog.
> 
> :dunno:
> 
> NS Premier looked promising but I have no idea anymore. I don't think I like the idea of rocker between the bindings.


This thread is of no help to anyone :laugh:

This on the other hand:


Wiredsport said:


> Looking around at all of the current board designs at the SIA show in Denver a couple of weeks ago was cool as always, but also dizzying. Board profiles (camber, rocker, etc.) were still the top story, with every booth showing off their favorite flavor (or in most cases flavors). It made me think how confusing it would be for a newer rider to make a board choice in the current market and how hard it would be to feel confident in their selection. There are now so many varieties out there that it is hard to stay on top of them all.
> 
> I thought it might be helpful to start a thread here that showed the basic profile types all in one place without the marketing spin. There are definately many sub categories of each, but these are the broad strokes.
> 
> ...


Super basic explanation though, and no help in regards to brands/boards.

That said, most brands have some sort of alternative camber tech. Look around at reviews to get a feel. You've narrowed it down nicely with buying made in America...


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## easton714 (Dec 28, 2011)

Ha! Thanks everyone. This is maddenly frustrating to someone who used to be a major board geek. I am not used to not knowing. Now I feel like my grandfather trying to understand how to use a smartphone.


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## duh (Sep 7, 2011)

A cambered snowboard has maximum pressure at the tip/tail contact points with less pressure applied as you move to the center of the board. Great design that has been the mainstay of board design since the late eighties. The perceived flaw is that the highest point on the snowboard is above the points on the arc where the bindings mount, unlike a ski where you stand directly over the highest point.

A reverse camber snowboard has maximum pressure in the middle of the board with less pressure as you move towards the tip/tail contact points. When done correctly these boards can be very dynamic. Unfortunately when done wrong they can be the sloppiest ride you've ever had. 

Personally I prefer the camber-rocker-camber design used by Never Summer, Gnu and Lib Tech. Don't take anybody else's word on which is better, it's all preference. Go demo some of the different designs and judge for yourself based on how they ride. Any reputable shop will apply demo credit to the cost of the board. 

Based on your history I think you should try a Never Summer- Raptor, Lib Tech- Dark Series or a Gnu- Billy Goat. You might just be surprised by how fun they are. Just my two cents.


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## easton714 (Dec 28, 2011)

Snowolf said:


> As for your question about riding flat based. The rocker between the feet makes holding a nose or tail press effortless and gliding across flat areas is so much easier as a result. Skating one footed just requires the rider to keep the front half of the board weighted to avoid pivot. If you do this, the board skates flat based easier than a camber by far.


I am reading through your Heritage review at the moment. Fantastic, but the way. But I am leery of anything even remotely "left of center" (with even the slightest freestyle overlap).

I was thinking about the Premier. Why does everyone compare the Heritage to the Raptor and ignore the Premier? Just curious...


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## Nivek (Jan 24, 2008)

These might help with the whole camber variations deal.

The Angry Snowboarder Blog Archive Camber Theories Explained

The Angry Snowboarder Blog Archive Camber Theories In Use


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## SGM (Dec 25, 2011)

easton714 said:


> I just typed and lost a whole long post here and lost it all because it said I timed out while typing it. I've never had that happen anywhere before.
> 
> Anywho...
> 
> ...


I started riding back in '92, and I've always (more or less) ridden duckstance, around 15/-7-ish, it just feels more natural to me. 

/J


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## Riley212 (Nov 9, 2011)

easton714 said:


> I am reading through your Heritage review at the moment. Fantastic, but the way. But I am leery of anything even remotely "left of center" (with even the slightest freestyle overlap).
> 
> I was thinking about the Premier. Why does everyone compare the Heritage to the Raptor and ignore the Premier? Just curious...


lol every board with two tips has freestyle overlap.

and the raptor has the carbonium topsheet which is supposed to be badass, and it is mostly camber with a uptruned nose rocker


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## lonerider (Apr 10, 2009)

grafta said:


> Riding duck is easier on the knees. Ever tried doing a squat with both feet facing either left or right? You can't get very low (well I can't anyway) and (what would be) the back leg ankle ends up feeling pressured and at an weird angle. I'm talking extremes, but when you've got fucked kness like me, ducked is great :thumbsup:


It's funny though... all the people riding crazy forward angles (like +55/+50) are older guys who's knees are bad and they stopped riding park and stuff. I'm stealing a photo Rider161 just posted in another thread.










I think you need to dial in your stance a lot more with extreme forward (aka positive) angles, but I don't see it being any worse on the knees than duck if you are doing it right (if you are doing it wrong, well then maybe duck stance well be more forgiving for bad form).

I ride +15/-15 currently btw. :thumbsup:


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## nofronts (Dec 20, 2011)

Snowolf said:


> Not so much ignoring the Premiere. The Heritage was inspired by the Raptor and is based on the same construction (carbonium) so it is natural to compare the two.


What about the heritage compared to the Proto CT? I have been trying to decide between the two and yesterday i was sold on the heritage after your review but today im thinking the Proto because it seems to be the heritage with more freestyle capabilities? Does that sound correct?


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## Nito (Oct 16, 2007)

Hi Easton,

Sorry for the late reply.

Re: Hybrid rocker - Grafta's pic is the correct explanation of rocker and the various permutations. To simplify the discussion, I just lumped the other various of rocker as hybrid rocker.

If you want traditional camber but with the benefits of catch free edges, look up Bataleon. Wiredsport did a big Q&A about Bataleon.

I ride a 158 NS Heritage and also ride a 2001 162 Morrow Blaze with Ride CAD bindings. The Heritage is just as fast, holds a line on boiler plate, and is much easier to turn. I tried a 165 NS Premier during a demo (I wanted to demo the 158 Heritage but the prior customer did not return it until the end of the day) and found it to be much stiffer than the Heritage. Both boards are very damp, I think NS rates the Premier higher in dampening. BTW, Snowolf's review is very thorough.

I believe in Demoing hardware, Burton does a lot of demoing and so does NS.
Events & Free Demos | Never Summer Industries - Snowboards, Longboards, Clothing and Accessories - Powered by CLVR TV
Sites-Burton_US-Site

Good luck - Nito


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## Sudden_Death (Mar 23, 2011)

lonerider said:


> by that reasoning... We should all be skiing since we naturally move with our hips, chest and head all pointing forward


Not really. Ever watch someone run and slide on a slippery surface or down an icy hill? Everyone naturally goes sideways as it is the naturally stable position for your body in that situation.


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## lonerider (Apr 10, 2009)

Sudden_Death said:


> Not really. Ever watch someone run and slide on a slippery surface or down an icy hill? Everyone naturally goes sideways as it is the naturally stable position for your body in that situation.


That's because in both those cases, the person is basically trying to maintain balance where traction/friction is limited and un-even where you two feet might decide to move at different speeds (spinning/twisting you around). Standing sideways also helps protect you from falling face-first or slipping off your heels onto the back of you head. A hockey player on skates glides straight forward quite easily.

As an aside - even my original comment was silly, turning this into a debate is even sillier.


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## grafta (Dec 21, 2009)

Sudden_Death said:


> Not really. Ever watch someone run and slide on a slippery surface or down an icy hill? Everyone naturally goes sideways as it is the naturally stable position for your body in that situation.


Just to douche this up even more, why is it that when I run and slide in socks/on ice I prefer to slide in my switch/backwards direction? I can't ride switch for shit!


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## Sudden_Death (Mar 23, 2011)

lonerider said:


> That's because in both those cases, the person is basically trying to maintain balance where traction/friction is limited and un-even where you two feet might decide to move at different speeds (spinning/twisting you around). Standing sideways also helps protect you from falling face-first or slipping off your heels onto the back of you head. A hockey player on skates glides straight forward quite easily.
> 
> As an aside - even my original comment was silly, turning this into a debate is even sillier.


True as a debate it is silly (but this is the internet:laugh: ). As someone who has played and watched hockey my whole life, that stuff ain't easy.The balance required is immense and takes years to master.Even after 30 years of skating it doesn't feel intuitive the way sliding on something sideways does.


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## lonerider (Apr 10, 2009)

Sudden_Death said:


> True as a debate it is silly (but this is the internet:laugh: ). As someone who has played and watched hockey my whole life, that stuff ain't easy.The balance required is immense and takes years to master.Even after 30 years of skating it doesn't feel intuitive the way sliding on something sideways does.


I think that just means you were a born snowboarder :thumbsup:

I've only been playing hockey for 20 years myself, but I wasn't blessed with being born Canadian like the people in this video:


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## haulinbass (Dec 10, 2011)

gliding forward on skates is sketchy as shit, your almost always on edge slightly turning one way or another(true hockey skates also have a rockered profile to the blade). I loved hockey as a kid, as i got a bit older and it has all cokeheads and run by the mob i really lost interest about the time i got picked up by a WHL team(kootney ice) and i never even showwed to training camp. on the original post forward stance hurts unless you run your feet 12 inches apart wich no board can do these days. I ride with almost 23 degrees front and -18 or so rear any less and i start getting knee/ankle alignment issues.


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## dreampow (Sep 26, 2011)

I spent my first two days on a board with my backfoot at 0 and my front at 15. On my second day I was in 40cm of amazing powder and I immediately knew powder was where I wanted to ride.

Then I bought my first board and bindings. Atomic dream raider (165 she was a beast, not the best board for me at that time but my buddy recommended it to me for powder and it was cheap) and salomon bindings. I didn't know shit so the store set them up for me with my back foot facing slightly forwards. I was able to carve well on groomers but it just felt wrong and was awful in the powder for making quick changes of direction or quick stops.

I quickly changed back to 0 and started riding duck shortly after that. Just more comfortable and versatile.

@lonerider almost everyone here in Japan rides duck apart from alpine carver dudes (very few).


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## lonerider (Apr 10, 2009)

dreampow said:


> @lonerider almost everyone here in Japan rides duck apart from alpine carver dudes (very few).


Well in my previous post I did add that "well at least more than people in the States."

Also note the video I attached in that post (again posted below) in which all the riders are on freeride boards and all appear to have forward angles.






I am sure some really good riders can ride like that with duck stances, but it is physically harder to do... I would love to see any video with anyone freeriding like that Japanese/American/European/South American ... forward/duck stance ... doesn't need to be a super long videos... just maybe 15-20 seconds of nice freeriding (not jibbing handrails, not blasting off a big backcountry kicker, not dropping powder pillows, or making huge slash turns in bottomless conditions... although those are all great!) - just a couple of good turns to mix things up a bit


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## dreampow (Sep 26, 2011)

lonerider said:


> Well in my previous post I did add that "well at least more than people in the States."
> 
> Also note the video I attached in that post (again posted below) in which all the riders are on freeride boards and all appear to have forward angles.
> 
> ...


I have some good Japanese stuff on DVD, but not in a format I can put up here. I will see if I can find some. They tend to be a bot older, but the Japanese dudes have some good shots of just carving down groomers at speed and with style.


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## HoboMaster (May 16, 2010)

For the most variability in you're riding, I don't think you can beat duck. For doing hard carving on groomers it's definitely not the way to go, you just can't get as much lean or torque - but for riding powder, trees, chutes and everything in-between, it's just a much quicker and responsive ride.

I think you (OP) will be fairly amazed if you demo one of these hybrid boards. The whole thing sounds sketchy at first if you're coming from a snowboarding era where anything that wasn't traditional camber was severely lacking in one way or another, but the new designs have really revolutionized snowboarding. Overall, it just makes for a plainly funner experience. I got off regular camber last season and haven't looked back.


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## doktrin (Feb 14, 2011)

funny thread. I've been super casual for the last 7 years and had no clue what 'rocker' was until last season. Picking up my first non-camber board this year, and I'm kinda psyched for the new experience.

On topic, I've been riding duck since 99. Started out with a really low angle on the back foot, though, for what that's worth.


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