# Difference between ruddering and pivoting in a turn?



## FutSanNoShadowK (Apr 12, 2013)

So I've read in many places that "ruddering" is a bad way to turn. But pivoting apparently is a valid way?

What is the difference between the two?


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## baldylox (Dec 27, 2007)

Sounds like the same thing to me. I wouldn't say they are invalid so much as 'not efficient'. A rider who is ruddering will have most of his weight on his front foot, his legs will be somewhat locked and he will not be engaging the sidecut of the board. It sort of looks like wagging a tail.

Skidded and carved turns are what you should be shooting for. Weight will be more centered and the boards sidecut will be engaged by flexing the front knee to twist the board and engage the edge then the rear foot follows suit. To initiate a toeside turn, push your shin against the tongue of the boot. To initiate a heelside turn, flex your tibialis anterior and shift your knee toward the front of the board (because of your foot being angled forward this will twist the board). Try to keep your shoulders in line with the board.


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## Cr0_Reps_Smit (Jun 27, 2009)

rudder foot is when a rider is pushing around his back foot to make turns which is bad because it puts your weight more towards the tail of your board as opposed to centered or slightly towards the nose, which is ideal. when your weight is over your back leg it makes it hard to control your turns, similar to trying to turn a bike while doing a wheelie.

in pivot turn the turn is initiated from the center of the board as opposed to the back, so instead of just pushing your back foot around you use both legs in countering movements. these are good to use in tight situations like tree or bump riding.


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## scott_murray (May 5, 2013)

Cr0_Reps_Smit said:


> rudder foot is when a rider is pushing around his back foot to make turns which is bad because it puts your weight more towards the tail of your board


I would think when ruddering your back foot around, your weight would have to shift forward not back (picking up the back end of the board and swinging it around while all the weight is up front). But regardless I agree with your point that it'd make the turn less controlled and centering weight is best in most cases. 
This is interesting though, something I've never really thought about while riding, I just kind of do what feels right. Next time I'm up I'll have to focus on this and see how centered I actually am, I fear Im more of a ruddering the back foot kind of guy.


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## Olex (Feb 20, 2013)

Quick ruddering is for riding moguls where you don't have time to make a larger turn. To the outsider it looks like a quick half-spin in place. Snow professor has a cheesy vod on that:
How to Snowboard: Moguls - YouTube 

That said when I ride moguls I prefer to just ride over them!


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## neni (Dec 24, 2012)

Olex said:


> Quick ruddering is for riding moguls


Well, I don't know the term "ruddering" but the description of quick turning with the back foot fits for what I frequently use in moguls and in steeps when you don't want to gain too much speed (with weight more on the front foot).


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## FutSanNoShadowK (Apr 12, 2013)

Olex said:


> Quick ruddering is for riding moguls where you don't have time to make a larger turn. To the outsider it looks like a quick half-spin in place. Snow professor has a cheesy vod on that:
> How to Snowboard: Moguls - YouTube
> 
> That said when I ride moguls I prefer to just ride over them!


Coincidentally this video is what made me start this topic. I've always read that ruddering is a bad way to turn, but what they refer to as "pivoting" in this video looks the same as ruddering to me. So I started wondering if there were any subtle differences between them that make pivoting acceptable and ruddering not acceptable.


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## Donutz (May 12, 2010)

You do pivot turns when your weight is more on your front leg. You do ruddering when your weight is more on your back leg. A pivot turn is kind of an exaggerated short-radius scarve. Ruddering on the other hand is the opposite of an efficient turn. With the pivot turn you're pivoting on the highly loaded end and skidding the lightly loaded end. With ruddering, you're trying to skid the heavily loaded end while using the lightly loaded end to edge with.


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## scott_murray (May 5, 2013)

Snowolf said:


> What we see a lot of with solid intermediates is the ruddering. They typically ride in the back seat, then hop forward onto the front foot and kick the tail around and then get back in the back seat. They are not using twist and tilt to engage the sidecut.


just got back from crystal and that sounds exactly like what i'd been doing all winter. focused a lot more on proper carving today and got a really good feel of tilting front edge to start a sidecut and following through with the back instead of my normal "kick" the back foot in an arc way of turning, which tended to get uncontrollable at higher speeds. Felt really great, want to get back out. pretty sore though...

this also made me realize my boots arent the best fit, felt the heel lift more than ever on the turns.


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## scott_murray (May 5, 2013)

oh also, for anyone interested, I searched around on this topic and found this thread. thought it was really helpful

http://www.snowboardingforum.com/ti...52842-how-avoid-excessive-use-back-leg-2.html


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