# Bad Foot Pain



## Wiredsport (Sep 16, 2009)

Fire Rose said:


> I was measured by a reputable shop so I'm pretty sure they are the right size.


Hi FR,

Let's see if we can help you figure this out. Because I haven't pasted this yet today  :

Please measure your foot using this method:

Kick your heel (barefoot please, no socks) back against a wall. Mark the floor exactly at the tip of your toe (the one that sticks out furthest - which toe this is will vary by rider). Measure from the mark on the floor to the wall. That is your foot length and is the only measurement that you will want to use. Measure in centimeters if possible, but if not, take inches and multiply by 2.54 (example: an 11.25 inch foot x 2.54 = 28.57 centimeters).


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## Fire Rose (Feb 15, 2016)

Right foot measures at 24.0, left measured slightly larger at 24.1. Using your tool it looks like I should have a 7 for my right foot? I can't imagine going down a half size. My toes were tight to the front of the boot, almost curling, before they packed out and I can still feel the front of the boot with my toes.


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## Wiredsport (Sep 16, 2009)

Fire Rose said:


> Right foot measures at 24.0, left measured slightly larger at 24.1. Using your tool it looks like I should have a 7 for my right foot? I couldn't possibly imagine going down a half size. My toes were tight to the front of the boot, almost curling, before they packed out. I can still feel the front of the boot with my toes, and they are a pain to put on and take off.


Hi Rose,

Right. You will likely be best suited with a size 7 (women's, correct?). You want to have firm pressure with your toes and heels into the compliant materials of the liner. Simply feeling the front is too large.

Let's confirm. Please pull the stock Burton inserts from your boot liners, stand on them barefoot with your heels back in the heel recess and snap some full foot photos.


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## Fire Rose (Feb 15, 2016)

First 2 pictures are right, last is the left.


I forgot to mention I have wide feet. I noticed that my pinky toes on both feet are completely overhanging the inserts, and the side of my feet are overhanging as well. When I was first breaking the boots in my pinky toe on my left foot kept getting pinched between the insole and the liner but that has stopped happening.


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## tanscrazydaisy (Mar 11, 2013)

Regular orthotics are made for walking, not a "fixed" foot sport.

My suggestion is find a good boot fitter who also has pedorthist certification. 

They can cost a little more, and sometimes they may say you bought the wrong boot.


Sent from my iPhone. There may be horrible grammar and misspelling involved


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## Wiredsport (Sep 16, 2009)

Fire Rose said:


> First 2 pictures are right, last is the left.
> 
> 
> I forgot to mention I have wide feet. I noticed that my pinky toes on both feet are completely overhanging the inserts, and the side of my feet are overhanging as well. When I was first breaking the boots in my pinky toe on my left foot kept getting pinched between the insole and the liner but that has stopped happening.


Thank for those photos. Got it!

That boot is too long and not wide enough. This will always perform poorly and create comfort issues. We need to get you into a men's boot (wider last) and we need to downsize you to your mondo size. Until we do that, the structures of your foot will never align with the structures of the boot. Insert/footbed/orthotic choice will never fix this. Of equal importance, you are squeezing your foot into too narrow a space which will also create the pain you are experiencing. I need two more measurements from you (that will be it, I promise  ).

Please measure your barefoot width (both feet) and please measure the Burton insert from toe to heel straight down the mid-line.


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## Fire Rose (Feb 15, 2016)

Insert is 24cm down the midline. Right foot width looks like 9.7 cm and left is 9.8 cm, assuming I did that right.

I'm not opposed to mens boots, but they generally run taller right? I'm only 5' so I'm worried a mens boot will cut me too high on the calf.


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## Wiredsport (Sep 16, 2009)

Fire Rose said:


> Insert is 24cm down the midline. Right foot width looks like 9.7 cm and left is 9.8 cm, assuming I did that right.
> 
> I'm not opposed to mens boots, but they generally run taller right? I'm only 5' so I'm worried a mens boot will cut me too high on the calf.


Yup. Your boot is a full cm too long and significantly too narrow. You have a Men's EE width at 24.0 cm (240 Mondo, Men's size 6, Women's 7). There are no women's boots that are even close to that wide in your mondo size. In fact there is only one boot on the market that is designed for EE (it is EEE). The Burton Ruler Wide. You will gain 2 cm in width. Fortunately, they make it in size 6. The cuff will be a bit different than your current boot (images below).

PS: As always, you will need to get them heat fit.


STOKED!


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## dave785 (Jan 21, 2016)

in addition to the boot sizing, you should also try out dancer pads. they're $10 on amazon. 

Arch pain is usually a canting problem and the dancer pads can fix that. Try them on both sides to try to find out which way works best (not both feet, both both sides of one foot. you'll understand when you see the pads)

I won't board without them.


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## Fire Rose (Feb 15, 2016)

It looks like the ruler wide is completely out of stock in a 6 so I guess I will have to wait for next season.


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## dave785 (Jan 21, 2016)

I took another look now that I'm off my phone and can see the photos you posted.

Your arch looks pretty flat but the more pressing problem is that your pinky toe seems to be curling around. If that isn't fixed (and if it isn't just a 1 time thing due to the photo angle) you could develop a bunionette. 

I'm also concerned about that bright red spot at the connection of your big toe to your foot. 

A few quick questions:

1. When you say arch pain, is it above the arch (top of your foot) or below the arch (next to the balls of your feet)
2. Does flexing your toes with no weight hurt?
3. Does flexing your toes with weight (standing on tip toes) hurt?
4. If you deeply massage the bottom of your feet (so deep that you touch the tendons which should make your toes move slightly) does it hurt?

Your arch doesn't seem to be very pronounced. That's not necessarily a bad thing. We just have to figure out where to add the padding to bring your foot back in line. 

Could you take a photo of yourself barefoot but in snowboarding position? Try to take it in a mirror and include your knee, ankle, and foot in the same photo. I want to see if they're in line.

I have had so many feet problems over the years due to hockey that I've spent a ton of time researching all of them. hopefully we can fix this


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## 24WERD (May 9, 2012)

dave785 said:


> ...
> I have had so many feet problems over the years due to hockey ...


Where do you play hockey and which team(s)?


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## Fire Rose (Feb 15, 2016)

My pinky toe naturally rests on its side. It's always been like that and has never caused a problem. I was born with club foot and my right foot was casted when I was an infant and the tendons surgically corrected at 1 year and 16 years old (left also corrected at 16). I tended to walk slightly more on the side of my foot (and very duck footed) so I just assumed it was because of that.


Anyways, I'll answer your questions when I get off work.


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## dave785 (Jan 21, 2016)

Fire Rose said:


> My pinky toe naturally rests on its side. It's always been like that and has never caused a problem. I was born with club foot and my right foot was casted when I was an infant and the tendons surgically corrected at 1 year and 16 years old (left also corrected at 16). I tended to walk slightly more on the side of my foot (and very duck footed) so I just assumed it was because of that.
> 
> 
> Anyways, I'll answer your questions when I get off work.


ok yeah I had a hunch that's what it was from how the foot looks. You have the exact opposite problem from mine. (I walk too much on the inside, so the ball of the foot at my big toe is in extreme pain).

Are your bindings canted? You probably want bindings and boots that _aren't_ because the canting will put even more pressure on the side of your foot. narrowing your stance should help and widening the binding angles should also help. Try going at least 21 on each side just to see how it feels. 

The side of the foot isn't designed to take the pressure (like hitting a spring from the side instead of the top) so most of it gets transferred up to the arch.


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## Fire Rose (Feb 15, 2016)

Ok I'm going to try my best to answer your questions. I just got off work and I've been on my feet all day so that might effect the foot pain questions...
I think the red spot you're seeing is where the shoes I wear to work have started rubbing.



dave785 said:


> 1. When you say arch pain, is it above the arch (top of your foot) or below the arch (next to the balls of your feet)
> *Below the arch, feels like its in the tendons*
> 2. Does flexing your toes with no weight hurt?
> *No*
> ...


I have tried my bindings at 18/-18 but my back knee starts to hurt. I could try 21/-12 to see if that helps at all.
My stance is already at the narrowest possible point on my board.


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## dave785 (Jan 21, 2016)

Fire Rose said:


> Ok I'm going to try my best to answer your questions. I just got off work and I've been on my feet all day so that might effect the foot pain questions...
> I think the red spot you're seeing is where the shoes I wear to work have started rubbing.
> 
> 
> ...


Try 24 and -6... go super forward and see how it feels. The farther out the angle is, the less you'll be pressuring the outer side and the more you'll actually be on the inner side.

Also try using a custom sole that has less arch support. Or just use the one that came with the boot (unless it's canted). I have a hunch that you should be buying a sole for a larger size boot and then cutting a bunch off the top (to me, it looks like your toes are shorter than average and the rest of the foot is larger, so a larger sized sole with the toe section cut shorter should help. If you use an arch that's too small (length wise, not height wise) for your foot then you'll be putting too much of the pressure on a small portion of your foot and the rest of your arch won't get enough support. 

And finally, and most importantly, you should get a toe spacer for your toes. A big, comfortable cushioned one that will hopefully keep your toes spread out and, most importantly, restrict their range of motion. That will help ease the tension on your tendons which seems to be the main issue. 

Your tendons are there to move your toes and because of your foot's unevenness you're having to flex some of the toes more than you should. Combine that with a high arch sole and the tendons are being pulled way too tight in an unnatural direction over the arch, which itself is pushing too much against it. 

If you play guitar, think of the tendons as strings, the toes as tuning knobs, and the arch as the bridge of the guitar. We need to loosen the knobs (toe spacer) and lower the bridge (less arch) to decrease the tension in the strings.

EDIT: or an even better metaphor... think of strapping in to a binding that's too small. If you tighten it all the way, you'll get pressure points. What we need to do is get a binding that spreads out the pressure more evenly (a sole with less arch, or a better fitted arch for your foot) as well as loosening the binding/ratchet and ensuring it doesn't accidentally tighten while you're turning (toe spacer keeping your toes from pushing down too far, as well ask keeping them and the tendons aligned)

the toe spacer I use:

www dot amazon dot com/DR-Comprehensive-Separators-Stretchers-Athletes/dp/B017JR6M3A/ref=sr_1_4_a_it?ie=UTF8&qid=1459997885&sr=8-4&keywords=toe+spacer


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## Fire Rose (Feb 15, 2016)

The pain was way worse with the sole that came with the boot. I was also having knee pain for a few days after snowboarding which has stopped since I started using better soles (but this also could be due to the fact that I'm getting more experienced and building muscle). If I weight my foot with very little arch support (like in the pictures) my foot lays flat but my ankle rolls, my knee falls in and the foot wants to point out (does that make sense?).

I will try 24/-6 and see how that feels. I think my back foot may need more of an angle than that so I'll play around with it. I'll give the toe spacers a try too but I have a feeling they might not be a viable option until I'm able to get wide boots.


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## dave785 (Jan 21, 2016)

Fire Rose said:


> The pain was way worse with the sole that came with the boot. I was also having knee pain for a few days after snowboarding which has stopped since I started using better soles (but this also could be due to the fact that I'm getting more experienced and building muscle). If I weight my foot with very little arch support (like in the pictures) my foot lays flat but my ankle rolls, my knee falls in and the foot wants to point out (does that make sense?).
> 
> I will try 24/-6 and see how that feels. I think my back foot may need more of an angle than that so I'll play around with it. I'll give the toe spacers a try too but I have a feeling they might not be a viable option until I'm able to get wide boots.


yeah that's called pronation and it causes knee pain. You're extremely pronated in those pics (which is why it looks like your arch is so small) 










canted footbed and canted boots would make it worse. Look at the pic in the attachment on the bottom and then imagine how much worse it would be if the foot wasn't on a level surface but instead on a slanted surface that sloped the angle downward even more.

dancer pads on the inside of the foot could help but the footpain you have isn't caused directly by pronation. the kneepain is but you should fix the footpain first. 

Do you have any hip pain? that's usually next on the list of things that start to hurt when your feet are wrong. Try to stretch them out and see if one of them is significantly less flexible or tighter than the other. It'll probably be your opposite hip (if right foot is bad, your left hip might be tighter than the right since your right hip is bearing more stress/weight)


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## Wiredsport (Sep 16, 2009)

Fire Rose said:


> I'll give the toe spacers a try too but I have a feeling they might not be a viable option until I'm able to get wide boots.


Hi Rose,

The women's boots that you are wearing are between 3 and 4 "width sizes" too narrow. That will be about 1.5 cm that your foot requires that is not available to it. 

Women's boot lasts are narrower than even "normal" width men's lasts. Have a look at the width chart above. Your 24 cm (size 6) foot at your width would require a size 9 normal width (D) men's boot to accommodate the width (and of course i am not suggesting anything of the sort). You need a wide model in your mondo size 260/98. Until that is corrected, sadly, you will not find foot comfort.


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## Fire Rose (Feb 15, 2016)

I plan on getting the wide boots you suggested next season. It looks like Burton only sold size 6 directly and they are out for the season. I only have 3 days left in the season so I guess I will just have to deal with it for now.


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## dave785 (Jan 21, 2016)

Yeah just to reiterate what wired is saying, because you have too much toe room your toes are clamping down so that they don't move around, which overly tightens your tendons. You already had surgery so they were already really tight. I asked my physical therapist about it this morning and he said that people with tendon surgery usually develop problems like this if they don't focus on rehabilitating their foot. Then he said you should see a podiatrist (he didn't want to give free advice to someone over the Internet no matter how hard i tried lol)


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## Wiredsport (Sep 16, 2009)

dave785 said:


> Yeah just to reiterate what wired is saying, because you have too much toe room your toes are clamping down so that they don't move around, which overly tightens your tendons. You already had surgery so they were already really tight. I asked my physical therapist about it this morning and he said that people with tendon surgery usually develop problems like this if they don't focus on rehabilitating their foot. Then he said you should see a podiatrist (he didn't want to give free advice to someone over the Internet no matter how hard i tried lol)


Hi Dave,

An odd thing happens inside a boot when the boot is significantly too narrow but also moderately too long. Due to the curve of the toe box and the width of the foot, the outer toes are effectively in a boot that is too short and the middle toes have extra length room. Then the whole toe area is being squished inwards from the outside. Basically, a torture device.


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## Fire Rose (Feb 15, 2016)

I think a torture device is a pretty accurate description.
Do you think I would benefit at all from trying to rent men's size 6 boots for the last 2 days of the season?


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## Wiredsport (Sep 16, 2009)

Fire Rose said:


> I think a torture device is a pretty accurate description.
> Do you think I would benefit at all from trying to rent men's size 6 boots for the last 2 days of the season?


HI FR,

Not really. A standard men's boot will be D width, which will still be a full 1 cm less than your actual foot width. I don't want to sour you before you get to try something that will actually work well for you .


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