# Heat-moldable liner warning!



## mrjimyjohn (Dec 18, 2010)

thanks for posting this here i was actually considering picking up the insanos for a trip im going on later this season but in case it gets too cold i guess i should get different ones... maybe those pimp celcius ones.....


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## bostonboarder (Nov 25, 2008)

Sounds like something I had happen to me with my 08 boxers. On one day I couldn't ride comfortably to save my life with the same thing you described. Later I figured out that the outer part of my liner was wet and I assumed that it was cold enough to override(best word I could think of) the body heat from my foot and that the liner actually froze. Only happened once and It was cold weather, just barely 0 degrees f.


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## Enormo (Oct 14, 2010)

mrjimyjohn said:


> thanks for posting this here i was actually considering picking up the insanos for a trip im going on later this season but in case it gets too cold i guess i should get different ones... maybe those pimp celcius ones.....


Didn't mean to totally scare you off of the Insanos... or any heat moldable liner/boot for that matter as I don't know if it's just the Insano liner or all heat-moldable liners that behave this way. I see it as another factor in the decision.

I'm keeping my Insanos for now and hoping I don't run into that sort of extreme weather anytime soon.


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## pacificdrums (Feb 25, 2010)

Are you sure your boots weren't just a little wet on the outside of the liners. I know mine get a little wet after a day of riding. Just a thought.


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## HoboMaster (May 16, 2010)

I don't understand how the liners getting frozen would have effected anything that much. Sounds like the whole damn boot froze and that's the real problem.


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## FtCS4 (Dec 30, 2010)

Funny, I was looking at heat moldable boots a month or so ago and my dad warned me of this problem -- he had it happen to him with some moldable ski boots back in the early 80s!


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## AlexS (Feb 12, 2010)

You can't expect a company to make boots to withold constant -10 F tempuratures..that's just not normal. They should but I'm sure the testing and all that shit takes place in maybe 10 degree minimum weather.


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## BurtonAvenger (Aug 14, 2007)

Your boot froze it fucking happens it's not the company, it's not the liner, it's the conditions you can't help it.


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## pacificdrums (Feb 25, 2010)

BurtonAvenger said:


> Your boot froze it fucking happens it's not the company, it's not the liner, it's the conditions you can't help it.


Sounds reasonable to me.


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## Leo (Nov 24, 2009)

This has nothing to do with heat moldable liners. I don't even understand that logic. Sorry, not trying to be rude, just thinking out loud.

Just because something reacts to heat does not mean it will react the opposite way to cold. Furthermore, even if this were the case, the liner won't affect the boots performance that much. All the liner is for is comfort, foot hold, warmth, and extra dampening. You could totally ride boots without liners so long as it still fits snugly around your feet if you so choose (don't know why you ever would though :laugh.

Several things happen in sub-zero weather...

Your gear freezes

You freeze causing your own riding skill to be affected

Snow hardens... if it is fresh pow on top, at a mere inch, the snow below the fresh becomes hardpacked which makes riding more difficult

Any moisture that was in your gear, boots in your case, freezes... so what may have seemed like dry to you could have easily had some moisture left and that moisture froze... even a little moisture freezing causes noticeable changes as we all know that water expands when frozen


Bottom line, it's not the boot. It's the weather.


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## Enormo (Oct 14, 2010)

First, I don't blame Ride or the manufacturer of the boot liner material. (Oh, wait. I got to get aggro about it... "fuck.") I don't expect all technology to work the same in all environments. And, as I've already implied, -10F is by far the exception rather than the rule. I'm over it. I'm keeping the Insanos (I think they're totally insano) and bringing backup non-heat moldable boots when I think it might get really cold.

The boots were bone dry. I know it was the liner because I was there. I felt them. They were rock hard. Don't know what else to tell ya. That's just the way it was.

And to those that say it wasn't the liner, quick question: Why would a HEAT moldable liner NOT respond to a change in HEAT? Heat and cold are degrees of temperature. If a hotter environment makes them more pliable why wouldn't a colder environment make them less pliable?


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## HoboMaster (May 16, 2010)

Because it's likely heat-moldable products use a "One-Time" molding material. This means that after you mold them once, the material retains that shape and can no longer be molded due to the chemicals/materials they use. If the liner would change due to varying temperature, it wouldn't be moldable, it would be like those stupid "space foam" beds that deflate to accommodate the curves of your body, then when weight is removed they return back to normal.

The point is to get the liner to fit your foot perfectly, then keep that shape forever. Anyways this is what logic would dictate.


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## Leo (Nov 24, 2009)

Enormo said:


> And to those that say it wasn't the liner, quick question: Why would a HEAT moldable liner NOT respond to a change in HEAT? Heat and cold are degrees of temperature. If a hotter environment makes them more pliable why wouldn't a colder environment make them less pliable?


To add to what Hobo said...

Let me use gold as an example. Why is it that it can be melted and then formed in high heat... but once it cools down to room temp it stays the same whether or not the weather gets cold?

I'm sure you can freeze gold to a point that it shatters easy, but isn't that the case with every thing? I can stick my gold wedding ring in the freezer and I guarantee it will feel the same tomorrow except it will be cooler to the touch 

I still stand by what I said... it wasn't just your liner. Everything froze. Your boot's shell included.


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## BurtonAvenger (Aug 14, 2007)

Shit freezes I've had it happen in every boot I've used. Go out in -21 degree temps and try riding in any boot and don't tell me it won't happen. You're just looking for a scape goat, ultralon foam is the best foam you can get for wrapping your foot and keeping warmth in. But there's a point where even the shell of the boot is going to fail you for keeping out the cold and then the liner will be the next wave of that cold attack to get slaughtered.


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## Enormo (Oct 14, 2010)

BurtonAvenger said:


> Shit freezes I've had it happen in every boot I've used. Go out in -21 degree temps and try riding in any boot and don't tell me it won't happen. You're just looking for a scape goat, ultralon foam is the best foam you can get for wrapping your foot and keeping warmth in. But there's a point where even the shell of the boot is going to fail you for keeping out the cold and then the liner will be the next wave of that cold attack to get slaughtered.


Shit freezes. Interesting hypothesis.

I have a hypothesis. At a certain temperature the polymer used in the Insano becomes prohibitively rigid. (I developed this hypothesis by careful direct observation not by hearsay.)

Well, isn't this a pickle. Two hypotheses, one seemingly as well drawn out as the other. Maybe I should dig a little deeper.

The Ride Insanos use a liner branded the "Intuition" liner. As you pointed out the actual foam material is branded as "Ultralon." Ultralon is just one of many commercial brands of the polymer Ethylene-vinyl Acetate (EVA for short). EVA is used for many retail and industrial applications.

One of its potential industrial applications is Photovoltaic Packaging. Now, I don't know what the fuck Photovoltaic Packaging is. However, in the end, it's not the application of EVA that I am interested in, it's the material's physical profile under particular climactic conditions. So, the executive summary of the National Renewable Energy Laboratories pilot study "Potential Problems with Ethylene-Vinyl Acetate For Photovoltaic Packaging" should serve to inform my hypothesis quite well.

http://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy06osti/39977.pdf

According to the NREL, among the "problems" with the practical application of EVA is questionable mechanical performance during low temperatures; as found in the study's abstract and the line graph in figure 7 entitled "Low Temperature Mechanical Testing of Modules is Needed."

To quote the NREL abstract, "Another consideration is that the glass transition of EVA, as measured extended periods of time in some climates. Due to increased moduli below the glass transition temperature, a module may be more vulnerable to damage if a mechanical load is applied by snow or wind at low temperatures. Modules using EVA should not be rated for use at such low temperatures without additional low-temperature mechanical testing beyond the scope of UL 1703."

To quote the footnote below figure 7, "For many environments, a temperature of –15°C is often reached, making cells in EVA-based modules significantly more susceptible to breakage from sudden impacts and rapid flexing."

So, what does this all mean? Well, to decipher this let's first define "glass transition." Glass transition is the reversible transition in certain materials from a hard and relatively brittle state into a molten or rubber-like state.

If EVA possesses this transitional property, what is the condition that causes this state? Well, according to the NREL report, a temperature of -15C which is equivalent to 5F is necessary for the transition to take place. 

In fact, EVA gets so rigid at its glass transition temperature that it could break due to mechanical forces. Now note, EVA is a closed cell polymer. It does not readily absorb water and the empirical study does not have a condition where the material is soaked or immersed in water and then frozen. This is a study based on the cured EVA polymer on its own.

It addition, if you look at figure 7 you'll notice that the rigidity of EVA is roughly proportional to temperature variants between 5F and 50F, meaning that the flex characteristics of EVA will vary within that range.

So, what does this essentially prove about my experience with the boot. 1.) The liner froze solid. 2.) The liner did not freeze solid because it was wet. 3.) I was not imagining the liner freezing because I couldn’t handle a groomed intermediate run. 4.) The liner could potentially fracture while using it at low temperatures.

BUT! WHAT ABOUT “SHIT FREEZES!”

Shit does freeze. I once crapped at an outdoor hockey rink and used my turd as a puck. But I think it froze so solid because shit is largely composed of water.

If water freezes then do other things freeze, like, I don’t know, all the material that the all the boots that you could possibly buy in the world are made of? Unfortunately, I have neither an exhaustive list of snowboard boot materials nor do I have the time to analyze them all.

However, I think you’re using the term “freeze” too generically. All things can get cold (can fire get cold?). But not all things dramatically change state based on the temperature ranges we are discussing. Leather gets harder as the temperature gets colder but I’ve worn leather boots in -15F and I never experienced the kind rigidity I did with the Insanos. 

Well, EVA is a synthetic rubber… Do all rubbers go through the same glass transition? Not sure, but I am sure that they don’t do so at the same temperature. For example, natural rubber goes through its glass transition at -95F. So you’re right. If you ride in -95F then YOUR SHIT WILL FREEZE!!!!

Then, are there other snowboarding boots that don’t freeze solid like a hard ski boot when it hits -10F? In theory, it is possible. In practice? SURE AS SHIT THEY DO. I’ve worn ‘em.
--
So, was I lying or misinformed about the liner in my boot freezing solid? No

Am using Ride boots as a scape goat? C’mon. I love the boot. I’m keeping it. I just won’t wear it when it’s going to be anywhere close to 5F. Answer… No.

Then what am I saying??? I’m saying that boots with an EVA liner and possibly other heat moldable liners have a particular physical characteristic that you should take into consideration when you buy a pair of snowboard boots. If you like a boot with SOME flex in it and you regularly ride in temperatures below 10F maybe a boot that doesn’t ride like a frozen brick of iron would be better for you. Or not. I don’t give a fucking shit what you ride. I just thought I’d pass along some useful information.

That was fun.


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## BurtonAvenger (Aug 14, 2007)

Someone wants validation for a simple concept water/moisture gets in between the liner and the shell, regardless of how well you dry them it's there, you went out in negatives it froze when it freezes it stiffens up. In short shit freezes suck it up.


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## Triple8Sol (Nov 24, 2008)

Not to mention the moisture that is being wicked away from your foot/leg and through your sock/liner/shell. Regardless of heat-moldable liner or not, Intuition or othewise, those kinds of extreme temps will have the same effect on any boot. Same way all your other gear turns rock hard in those temps, like your binding straps, gloves, etc...


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## ev13wt (Nov 22, 2010)

Enormo said:


> I'm going to college and will tell my first employer how to run his business.


Dude, the heat molding is right next to your foot. If your foot freezes then we can talk about all your tl;dr up there. Else, just admit your entire boot froze. Its not the heat moldable liner. Impossible.


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## Enormo (Oct 14, 2010)

Doesn't mean you're stupid. Just means you want to be stupid.


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## Leo (Nov 24, 2009)

So in the end Enormo... you only proved us right. It has nothing to do with the fact that the liner is heat-moldable. It is about how the material reacted to negative temperatures. Umm... does that not mean it froze??????

You made this thread telling people to avoid heat-moldable liners with the assumption that it reacts the opposite way to cold as it does to heat.

That was flat out wrong. Your explanation talks about the material, EVA. That is a common material used in all kinds of gear like your helmet. Your dictionary of an explanation has nothing to do with heat-moldable liners.

I don't know the specifics, but maybe you should research what makes these liners heat-moldable.


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## MunkySpunk (Jan 7, 2009)

Hey, I'm using big words to sound smart too:

All EVA isn't equal. The manufacturing process has rather LARGE consequences on the physical properties of the resulting product.

Has anyone stopped to ask if the EVA in your boot liner is closed or open cell foam? Or is it some sort of hybrid? What is the density of the foam? Did they inject any binders or compounds to change the temperature properties? 

You're comparing the behavior of an artificial macromolecular compound that undoubtedly has hundreds if not thousands of other proprietary trace compounds to...... water. H20 with a whopping molecular weight of 18. Way to go Einstein.

Water already has VERY unusual characteristics, including what happens to it at different temperatures. Comparing the thermodynamics of ANY molecule or compound to water as a yardstick is idiotic.

Enormo, you have not uncovered an epidemic, you have not shined light on some sort of industry conspiracy, you are NOT a lone sentinel of reason in a misguided recreational footwear community full of charlatan merchants and sucker consumers. And you have not actually done anything to refute the claims of materials physicists everywhere who spend more money on and have more training in these sorts of matters than you will ever have.


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## Leo (Nov 24, 2009)

Long time no see Munky... Nice to read your posts again :thumbsup:


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## BurtonAvenger (Aug 14, 2007)

MunkySpunk said:


> Hey, I'm using big words to sound smart too:
> 
> All EVA isn't equal. The manufacturing process has rather LARGE consequences on the physical properties of the resulting product.
> 
> ...


This just made my day. Now I'll go be stupid with my 5th pair of boots with Intuition liners.


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## MunkySpunk (Jan 7, 2009)

Leo said:


> Long time no see Munky... Nice to read your posts again :thumbsup:


I'm all over the East coast meet topic. I think I've become the whipping bitch of a nearly 100 page thread. :dunno:


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## Mysticfalcon (Nov 27, 2007)

MunkySpunk said:


> I'm all over the East coast meet topic. I think I've become the whipping bitch of a nearly 100 page thread. :dunno:


As long as you are useful for that we will keep you around


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## Jeklund (Dec 14, 2009)

The thing is that even if your boots where dry your still going to sweat and with temperatures that cold any moisture is going to freeze. As most of the people here said i think it has nothing to do with the heat moldable liners and more just the fact that it was cold and moisture is going to freeze.


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## Triple8Sol (Nov 24, 2008)

MunkySpunk said:


> Enormo, you have not uncovered an epidemic, you have not shined light on some sort of industry conspiracy, you are NOT a lone sentinel of reason in a misguided recreational footwear community full of charlatan merchants and sucker consumers. And you have not actually done anything to refute the claims of materials physicists everywhere who spend more money on and have more training in these sorts of matters than you will ever have.










(waiting for another irrelevant copy/pasted wiki retort from OP)


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## Enormo (Oct 14, 2010)

Wow. Lots of panties in wads here. LOL


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## Leo (Nov 24, 2009)

Enormo said:


> Wow. Lots of panties in wads here. LOL


No. In BA and Munky's case, you have to have been around here long enough to understand that, that is just how those two roll. 

In others' cases, we are simply pointing out the flaws of your thread because you are giving misinformation to other riders about heat moldable boot liners. That is the main purpose of these types of forum sections: to give information about a particular gear to riders who want/need to know. The wrong advice/information will get called out. Nothing personal. I've been called out plenty of times. It's all a part of the snowboardingforum game.


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## 51bombed (Sep 21, 2010)

Enormo said:


> That was fun.


edited out the 10 page report[that i read start to finish]
My boots havent frozen yet. Imprint3 liner.. however coldest i've use them is -5 degree night riding.

There is not a suitable rebuttal to this.
Only one thing to be said.
EDIT:this fits, because you know it took just as long to color this guy in as it did to write that 'essay'...
mucho props.


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