# How to get rid of a bad habit?



## neni (Dec 24, 2012)

First of, self taught rider. Took many years to eradicate all of them old bad habits - well, at least I thought so. 

But when I screened some takes riding steep narrow terrain, there it was! A shameful old counter turning hmy::embarrased1:. Dunno how you guys call it, but I mean when doing a frontside turn, the shoulders counter turn backwards, and hence the weight shifts unintendedly to the hind leg and ruins the flow, interrupts fluent turns. 

Asked an instructor friend lately to check my riding and he just said it's all fine. I don’t have that problem on groomers, also not on steep but wide open terrain. Ony in the steep n deep n narrow. So I guess it's when I'm highly concentrated on the surrounding and bit pumped, that it crawls up. 

Hints how I can overcome that habit entirely? Wanna ride them steeps more fluently next time


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## SnowDragon (Apr 23, 2012)

Ah, the very common counter rotation problem.

A few suggestions:

1. Practice some easier runs holding the bottom sides of your jacket. It will help you get a feel for keeping your upper body in line with your lower body, as holding your jacket will restrict the movement of your upper body, especially the shoulders.
2. Always think to keep your shoulders within the width of your board. As your board moves, your shoulders should move with it, thereby keeping your torso parallel with the board.
3. Many people ride with "open" shoulders. That is, to look where they are going they turn their upper body in that direction. Using point 2 above, think to rotate your neck/head as close to 90 degrees as you can to see where you are going, leaving your shoulders parallel to the front and back edges of your board.

Hope these make sense and help.


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## Donutz (May 12, 2010)

If it's only on steep and narrow, not on steep and wide, it might be strictly psychological. You're less confident in that area, so you "lean back", both figuratively and literally. With your weight off your front foot, you have to throw your weight around to get the steering.

I have a number of areas where I get freaked out and lean back. The way I handle it is to deliberately go into those areas and consciously keep my weight forward. Do it as slow as possible a couple of times, then gradually ramp it up, but if I lean back, I start over.


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## neni (Dec 24, 2012)

Donutz said:


> If it's only on steep and narrow, not on steep and wide, it might be strictly psychological. You're less confident in that area, so you "lean back", both figuratively and literally. With your weight off your front foot, you have to throw your weight around to get the steering.



Yes, it's only in the "holy fuck, do.not.fall." area so yes, there's a psychological factor. You may be right, I may interchange cause and symptoms. May well be that the back seat is the initial underlying cause. Will be hard to exercise/ramp up cos I don't get the opportunity often.


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## Manicmouse (Apr 7, 2014)

I get that when I'm gunning it with tired legs, throw one turn too many and then chicken out.

I'm unfit so technique goes out the window in the afternoon


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## Bones (Feb 24, 2008)

I've been fighting the same bad habit in the steep and narrows for a couple of seasons now. For whatever reason, I don't want to look away from the fall line. Obviously it's no problem going from toe to heel because that turn gives you an even better view downhill, but toe to hill gets sluggish to initiate. 

I've noticed that, for me, it starts with sneaking a peek downhill while on my toes to a lingering look a couple of turns later to full blown counter-rotation.

Only thing that I've found that helps a bit is to practice turning an predetermined times rather than spots. Ie count 1,2,3...1,2,3 turning on every 3 not matter what is under my feet. It helps me to focus back to terrain that I'm moving toward rather than what is on the fall line below me.


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## slyder (Jan 18, 2010)

My scarry hill stuff is probably nothing like you real mountain boys. 
But when I'm a little hesitant, scared or skills aren't there for my physical location this is where I use the absolute best form and total concentration so I know my board goes where I need it to go to stay alive and in one piece. 

I usually get Neni's description/issue when I"m just out messing around on the groomers and just get sloppy or tired. 

As to your question, now that you know the type of terrain that you have the issue with I think this is where you need to really turn up the concentration since you describe it as almost sub-consciously


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## snowklinger (Aug 30, 2011)

*mor beer pls!*

I quit smoking cigarettes by smoking 3x as much weed.

If you know how much weed I already smoked, thats some work son.

you're welcome.

4. Profit


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## tonicusa (Feb 27, 2008)

Practice proper body position on moguls or other challenging terrain as a warmup. Nev Lapwood covers maintaining upper body position in this new vid he just posted.

How to ride bumpy terrain and moguls on a snowboard | Snowboard Addiction


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## Justin (Jun 2, 2010)

I think that you should have that technique in your pocket for really tight trees and super narrow terrain where you want to switch edges quickly but want to maintain a slow speed without just side slipping or jump stopping. It could be that you are just riding open however when I am in really really tight trees i like to be counter rotated almost like sliding rails or doing a shifty. 

It is a counter rotation though its not just riding open, when I am on my heal edge my shoulders are closed off to the maximum they can be.


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## tonicusa (Feb 27, 2008)

It's difficult to avoid opening up in steep and narrow as the OP stated. Watch any good rider in that sort of terrain and you can see a massive amount of effort and unweighting going into the turns. A lot of guys are essentially jump turning whether you can see it on video or not. There's no way around it. Jeremy Jones practices those moves on his home mountain on any iced over steep little patch he can find. It doesn't look pretty.


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## chomps1211 (Mar 30, 2011)

Nen's, If you could post a short video clip showing yourself doing what it is you see as the problem, it might help to determine what if any corrective action is required. It may be, as some have already stated, that it is simply a natural reaction to riding the type of terrain you are describing.


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## CassMT (Mar 14, 2013)

the proper technique for steep and narrow is to don't turn at all, problem solved

internet answer/


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## neni (Dec 24, 2012)

Thanks to all for the input. 


chomps1211 said:


> It may be, as some have already stated, that it is simply a natural reaction to riding the type of terrain you are describing.


Well, natural reaction of someone very hesitant maybe. I’ve seen how the SO did ride the same spots. Fluent. No counter-rotation. Well… also half the number of time and turns . I’ve just takes from my cam, which won’t help a lot (you just see waving arms and a board). 


slyder said:


> As to your question, now that you know the type of terrain that you have the issue with I think this is where you need to really turn up the concentration since you describe it as almost sub-consciously


Haha, you're right in a way... tho I grant I was super concentrated, but more on the surrounding than on me (oh, mind the rocks, mind your speed, mind the sluff, don't follow the fall line, stay right of the shrund - you don’t see it but it’s there, btw, which side is right uhm…, mind the radio, oh mind the ice over there, and for heaven’s sake don't fall). So I was pretty occupied with all that info and trying to pick a nice line, I guess, there was no brain cell left for concentration on my technique . 

I’m used to ride terrain I can see or I know each inch. So there’s only a limited number of things to mind. The shitty snow conditions together with the unfamiliar steepness and all the factors to mind being on glaciated terrain was a new level. 


tonicusa said:


> Practice proper body position on moguls or other challenging terrain as a warmup.


Hmmm… I actually almost like to ride moguls… they’re a good exercise for concentration and timing. Tho I hardly use the upper body and ride them with the legs mainly. And I’d say I pretty much permanently ride with open shoulders - and hips… maybe due to the +/+ angles... 

But I guess I have a clue now… it all comes together, bit of everything. Lack of experience leads to lack of confidence leads to lack of proper technique. Staring down the fall line, too distracted by the surrounding, maybe bit in the back seat, and probably too slow, so without the help of the upper body I had no chance to throw the board around quick enough at slow speed on a short turn in 50°. Gonna mind some more things next time  



Bones said:


> Only thing that I've found that helps a bit is to practice turning an predetermined times rather than spots. Ie count 1,2,3...1,2,3 turning on every 3 not matter what is under my feet. It helps me to focus back to terrain that I'm moving toward rather than what is on the fall line below me.


Funny you mention this. I’ve practiced the very same thing on groomers to make the leg/feet movements independent from the glace scanning the terrain. Hmmm… need to scan our mountain for something steeper/more challenging to further exercise.



snowklinger said:


> I quit smoking cigarettes by smoking 3x as much weed.
> If you know how much weed I already smoked, thats some work son.
> you're welcome.
> 4. Profit


LOL. I see what you've done there


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## chomps1211 (Mar 30, 2011)

neni said:


> Thanks to all for the input.
> 
> Well, natural reaction of someone very hesitant maybe. I’ve seen how the SO did ride the same spots. Fluent. No counter-rotation. Well… also half the number of time and turns . *I’ve just takes from my cam, which won’t help a lot (you just see waving arms and a board).*


Ahhh,… OK! From the way you described becoming aware of the issue, I presumed you had some video from another viewpoint showing yourself using the bad form you were looking to work on.

As for your SO? Sounds like he was using CassMT's method for navigating that terrain!


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## TimelessDescent (Oct 26, 2014)

Donutz said:


> If it's only on steep and narrow, not on steep and wide, it might be strictly psychological. You're less confident in that area, so you "lean back", both figuratively and literally. With your weight off your front foot, you have to throw your weight around to get the steering.
> 
> I have a number of areas where I get freaked out and lean back. The way I handle it is to deliberately go into those areas and consciously keep my weight forward. Do it as slow as possible a couple of times, then gradually ramp it up, but if I lean back, I start over.



Pretty much 100% accurate. Dropping into a halfpipe is a more extreme example, but its the same idea. You have to commit or you wont be riding with the same weight distribution over your board which will cause you to lose control. Thats of course easier said than done. The first time I was rewarded with the benefits of letting go was finally saying to myself screw it and going for it. No technique or this or that. It was all mental. I was just sick of hesitating. With that said...I still find myself in plenty of situations hesitating even though I know what to do.


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## SkullAndXbones (Feb 24, 2014)

even though this is an older-ish thread, i will say that my first thought, too, was that it might be psychological. steep and narrow can be scary if you're not used to riding it. unfortunately i don't think there's really a way to build up to it by going down small narrow trails because that's still in your comfort zone. it's just one of those things where you kinda have to just say screw it and throw caution to the wind and just do it. when i ride steep and narrow trails, that are too steep to where i'm not comfortable going straight down, i just do small quick carves. basically just leaning back and forth a bit.


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## speedjason (May 2, 2013)

sometimes, you just gotta ride it out.


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## Tatanka Head (Jan 13, 2014)

This is a good thread to revisit. As I'm mentally preparing for the upcoming season I want to focus on cleaning up my riding. Might do a lesson (probably not...I always say I will, but can't find the time :finger1

I third the dropping-in comparison. At my local I have one steep and narrow run that I like to avoid. My riding partner doesn't mind this run, and since it takes us to a more remote lift we often find ourselves on it. I basically pull style out of my ass when I ride it. Heavy on the lead foot and clean, tight turns. The intimidation usually comes from the two rock walls on both sides, and the line of skiers waiting to drop in. I don't mind eating shit, but I don't want to do it into a rock wall while in front of a bunch of skiers. This is my motivation to get through it as quickly and cleanly as possible. And it works.

On open steeps, I'm wide and loose. Relaxed and possibly sloppy. 

I might have the opposite problem of you, Neni. I need to clean up my game a little.


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## wrathfuldeity (Oct 5, 2007)

Tatanka Head said:


> This is a good thread to revisit. As I'm mentally preparing for the upcoming season I want to focus on cleaning up my riding. Might do a lesson (probably not...I always say I will, but can't find the time :finger1
> 
> I third the dropping-in comparison. At my local I have one steep and narrow run that I like to avoid. My riding partner doesn't mind this run, and since it takes us to a more remote lift we often find ourselves on it. I basically pull style out of my ass when I ride it. Heavy on the lead foot and clean, tight turns. The intimidation usually comes from the two rock walls on both sides, and the line of skiers waiting to drop in. I don't mind eating shit, but *I don't want to do it into a rock wall while in front of a bunch of skiers. * This is my motivation to get through it as quickly and cleanly as possible. And it works.
> 
> ...


I use to feel that way...but now...fuck it/huck it...I am going to destroy the line before those pussy skiers get in my way and I don't mind eating shit to do it...yup style right out of my ass.


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## Lamps (Sep 3, 2011)

Use the bat signal 

S
N
O
W
O
L
F


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## elstinky (Jan 24, 2010)

Bones said:


> Only thing that I've found that helps a bit is to practice turning an predetermined times rather than spots. Ie count 1,2,3...1,2,3 turning on every 3 not matter what is under my feet.


Bit late to chime in maybe, but cannot stress enough how much this helped me last season. (pretty sure I read the tip on this forum as well btw) Had vids of me doing whatever I used do, then some where I was using the counting and the difference was 
Depending on how wide/steep the terrain is I sometimes count just 1,2 cause 3 would end me up in the trees or worse and 1,2,3,4 or more when there's plenty of room :]


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## neni (Dec 24, 2012)

*Update - lessons learned*

A little update; maybe others will profit as much from this thread as I did.



Donutz said:


> If it's only on steep and narrow, not on steep and wide, it might be strictly psychological. You're less confident in that area, so you "lean back", both figuratively and literally. With your weight off your front foot, you have to throw your weight around to get the steering.


This ^ turned out to be spot on.

Ever since this thread, when facing such a situation and feeling that the over rotation appears, I monitored my weight distribution and indeed: heavy and stiff on back leg and thus totally blocked and unable to use the back leg to steer.

Knowing what the source is helped a lot to improve. Two things which made for big improvements:

Physical: I experimented over the last years a lot with stance and angle to find a position where I'm most comfortable to ride very low in knees with weight more on front leg. (To me, this meant in the end to widen the stance by 4cm and move from +/+ to a very mild 3° duck hind angle). 

Mental: was to condition myself to a mental mantra: "point the nose, get out of the backseat, ride low!" 

The mental picture of keep pointing the nose into the fall line did the trick to me to avoid the downward spiral of leaning back -> being blocked -> not able to turn properly -> counter rotate. 

Of course, I dont point it in reality all the time, but trying to get the nose back into fall line quickly keeps me on the front leg -> enables lightfooted use of hind leg to do quick shifts to speed check and turns -> better control. My riding became much more fluent and confident ever since.

Thanks!


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## Scalpelman (Dec 5, 2017)

neni said:


> A little update; maybe others will profit as much from this thread as I did.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Ive had the same experience this year. Made drastic improvements this year—mostly from advice on this forum. Very much appreciated. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## wrathfuldeity (Oct 5, 2007)

Have also definitely improved about this matter over the past 2 seasons. Beside what neni notes...another mental thing that has helped "keep my leading shoulder pointed down/in the fall line." In fact, yesterday rode this steep where I was able to make it down with out bailing or stopping...the first time in perhaps 10 attempts over many years.


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## f00bar (Mar 6, 2014)

Good to hear you stuck with it and didn't give up Neni. I'm sure in a few more seasons you'll be a pretty good rider.


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## Fielding (Feb 15, 2015)

The lean back reaction to steep or sketchy terrain is universal. It’s a reflex. The problem with it is that when you take your weight off of your front foot you lose a lot of control. You’re riding the back half or maybe just 1/3 of the board’s edges. That means you’ll likely lose your intended line. 

A well qualified freind who also rides + + on softboots since the 90s taught me to use a hand reach motion to stay in the board’s cockpit. By reaching for the downhill rail with the same hand (eg. you have left rail engaged so it’s the uphill rail...right rail is lifted...right rail is the downhill rail...as you turn you reach with your right hand to the right rail just above where you front binding is placed) you stay in the zone. No need to actually touch the rail. Just keep your body in position so that you could grab it if you wanted to. This keeps you squarely over the length of the board and allows you to put all of your weight on the engaged edge of the board. That’s how I learned to make large turns on steep, icy slopes.

A side effect of this mental trick is that you’ll likely become more concerned with where your downhill rail is as you make the turn. As you reach for it you’ll likely tilt the board just a little more in order to raise that downhill rail toward your hand without really thinking about it. Tipping the board up on its edge in this manner makes the turn even stronger and more locked in.


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## neni (Dec 24, 2012)

f00bar said:


> Good to hear you stuck with it and didn't give up Neni. I'm sure in a few more seasons you'll be a pretty good rider.


I'll keep at it. One day in a few more seasons I may even learn to ride switch


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