# Arthritis.......wait, what??



## BurtonAvenger

Be happy you got it at 46, I've been dealing with it since I was 26. There's a few various ways to combat it though. 

Do your bindings have canting? With stance alignment this is a huge thing most people need between 1.5 and 2.5 degrees of canting, but can go as extreme as 3 depending on how their stance is to ankle/leg alignment. You have to see if you pronate or supinate. 

The other thing is arch support in your boots. The key to this is to have a footbed that also corrects ankle/leg pronation/supination as well as supporting all the arches in the foot. 

Supplements are key as well. I have taken Glucosamine Chondroitin with MSM and Hylaunic acid on and off for the last 5 years. It comes down to sustaining and building up the Sinovial fluids in the knee to keep it lubricated. 

Keeping your weight down as well as stretching regularly will help. A brace becomes a crutch that causes other muscles to over compensate for it. I blew my MCL and Meniscus up a couple years ago and wore a brace for one year only to make it through the season then strength trained for 8 months to build up all the muscles around it to hold them together. 

Talk with the doc see what they recommend, they more than likely won't recommend homeopathic supplements as it seems to go against what they're taught.


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## chomps1211

Past or repeated trauma can cause arthritic degeneration in some joints. That may be what you're dealing with. I'm no expert and you should check this for accuracy, but I believe that although that type of arthritis can get worse in the affected joint, it is _not_ a systemic immune response issue like typical arthritis is. Meaning it is unlikely to spread and affect other joints.

If that is the case, consider yourself lucky! (...well, relatively speaking anyway.)

I have a type of arthritis called "Palindromic Rheumatoid Arthritis!" It is characterized by random, acute flare-ups in various joints. By that I mean it tends to play musical chairs with my body and I will get a mild to moderate ache or two in several joints at the same time until it decides which one it wants to settle into and become acute.

When that happens, the pain and swelling becomes extreme, the affected appendage becomes useless and nothing, including narcotic pain meds will touch it. The only thing that will work to relieve the pain is a massive dose of steroids over a day or two, (which has it's own problems.) In order for them to work, It takes about 2-3 hours before the majority of the pain is gone. Not playing "_I got that beat_" with you, just pointing out, things could be worse. 

I've had this now since I was in my mid 40's. Funny thing is, I can crash my MTB, take hard slams and falls on the snowboard, lift weights in the gym and nothing!! No flare ups, no pain. (....aside from that associated with the crash or workout.) But let me turn a door knob wrong, miss a shift on my big rig, or reach around to get something out of the back seat of the car, and sure as shit! I will wind up with a flare up starting and in a few hours I'm in excruciating pain and dosing myself with steroids! :blink: :dunno:

Ah well, as long as it doesn't interfere with my snowboarding,.. _FuckIt!!!!_


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## PalmerFreak

Thanks for the info BA. :thumbsup: Having it at 26 must suck so I'm gonna stop my complaining and just deal with it. 

I was thinking about canted foot beds but I ride Flow's and the 2012's that I bought at the end of last year for my new T.Rice doesn't have them. Are there generic canted foot beds that can be added to any binding or do they have to be designed with the binding? The 2013 Flow's do have canted beds but I'd prefer to not dump another $300 on bindings - but I will if I have to. 

I don't have custom arch supports for my boots. Is this something that I'd have to get done by an experienced boot fitter or can you buy something off the shelf?

I give my dogs glucosamine so I've started looking at supplements to see what seems to be effective. I'll look at the other stuff you mention as well. 

I'm 5'8' and 175lbs and work out pretty religiously. I've backed off on my leg workouts a bit since I thought I had an MCL injury but I'm going to get back to my normal routine starting today. 

I'll look into the homeopathic options - any suggestions?

Thanks again for the tips, they're much appreciated.


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## Argo

You should be able to find 2013 flow nx2 bindings for under $200.


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## PalmerFreak

Thanks for the input Chomps. I don't have pain in any other joints and I've never had a knee injury before so I don't think it's your type of arthritis or a degenerative condition. 

The way I look at it is if I can be (relatively) pain free when I'm riding I can deal with the pain afterwards. What I'm worried about is if I have pain while riding it will effect my stance/form to a point where it begins to effect other parts of my body or keeps me from enjoying myself. I'm thinking that I will be able to avoid those types of issues with some of the tips I've gotten from BA and hopefully the orthopedist has some ideas as well.


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## chomps1211

PalmerFreak said:


> Thanks for the input Chomps. I don't have pain in any other joints and *I've never had a knee injury before* so I don't think it's your type of arthritis or a degenerative condition....


OK, I'm a little confused. 



PalmerFreak said:


> My right knee (regular stance) usually bothers me about half-way through the season and I never really thought much about it *figuring the torque that's placed on the joint causes it to flare up.* Usually by the middle of spring everything is fine and I get on with my summer activities.


I wasn't necessarily referring to some major, immediately destructive, traumatic injury! Repeated stress, (i.e. trauma!) of the sort you are describing as having over some number of years boarding, is sometimes all that's necessary to cause the type of arthritic degeneration I was talking about.

There is a blood test to check for RH factor. It is by no means definitive for determining that you have any type of rheumatoid arthritis, as some people with this factor present never have any disease process or symptoms. But it could help you to determine if what you are experiencing is arthritic degeneration from past traumas or the beginning of a more general arthritic condition. Early detection and treatment can help with getting meds that can limit further joint degeneration that can occur from the rheumatoid types of arthritis.

These are some of the things you will want to talk over and ask questions about with your doctors.


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## BurtonAvenger

Arthritis pain is just something I've learned to deal with as have many of my friends. I know mine is caused from repeated snowboard/skateboard related impacts. Some days are good and some days are bad. 

I've done full custom insoles, almost all aftermarket, and the best ones right now that I've found are Remind. I have them in all my shoes, in my boots, and these are by far the best things I've ever used. Canting in the binding should be the second option the boot is the most important and I think this is where you'll notice the problem start to be rectified. 

One of the members on here put me on to Zyflenenol (probably spelling this wrong but it's early a.m.) I've been taking it for about 30 days now and I notice the difference in how my joints feel. With glucosamine there's so many variations of it on the market you have to find the one that works for you and it can take up to a month or two before you notice the effects. For my I actually use the Kroger store brand as it's the only one that seems to work. One thing to note is you can build up an immunity to it so what I try to do is use it for long periods of time till I notice pain again then lay off for a while.


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## Jed

I was actually talking to my brother in law who's a surgeon and he was telling me how basically everyone involved in sports gets it around your age. It's just a crummy part of our body breaking down from all the strain of being so active.

Many of us may actually get it far earlier if we have injuries like ACL/meniscus tears, which is why I pay extra attention to do everything I can to slow down the deterioration of my knee after 3 surgeries.

BA's tips are spot on, and especially make sure you keep your legs strong in the gym. The stronger your legs, the less strain your knee will take and the slower your knees will deteriorate. Also, if you do cardio, don't do running, it's not great for your knees and riding the stationary bike or elliptical trainer is a lot better.

And as already mentioned, canted bindings are awesome too. I basically only ride canted bindings nowadays too (which makes me sad that the NOW bindings don't have canting).

On the plus side, we may be the last generation affected by this kind of arthritis because stem cell treatment is making leaps and bounds in treating joint arthritis and regrowing cartilage.


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## chomps1211

BA, was this the supliment you were referring too?

Zyflamend

The glucosemine didn't help me any, so I would be interested in your opinion, impressions etc. of how that Zyflamend was working for you? That is if you've been using it long enough to notice any effect!


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## Noreaster

chomps1211 said:


> BA, was this the supliment you were referring too?
> 
> Zyflamend
> 
> The glucosemine didn't help me any, so I would be interested in your opinion, impressions etc. of how that Zyflamend was working for you? That is if you've been using it long enough to notice any effect!


Glucosamine is just a supplement. Its effect are not immediately measurable, nor are they supposed to be. It delays further deterioration, not so much improves it. Let's just say that if you've been taking it over a significant period of time (years, decades) in the end your condition would be better than if you haven't taken it. So, even if you think it doesn't really help take it anyway, 10-15 years down the line you would be glad you did. Pretty much the same works for any herbal or mineral supplement. They don't reverse the damage - nothing short of joint replacement can - they just slow the process down. 

Take glucosamine-chondroitin combo, it has a nigher success rate than either one by itself. In fact, anyone with OA or RA should be on a daily doze of Omega-3,6,9 complex, Vit D, glucosamine-chondroitin and calcium.


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## snowklinger

I have arthritis in my knees and load bearing joints from years of roofing, now I'm getting it in my hands from 20+ years of making food. I'm 37.

BA's advices are just about the only thing that works even though I like to go against conventional wisdom and treat myself with loads of alcohol and marijuana.

The alcohol thing is stupid as fuck, theres nothing better then being hydrated, but if you can get some medicinal herbz, you can't go wrong.

I try to regimen glucosamine.


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## Jed

Noreaster said:


> In fact, anyone with OA or RA should be on a daily doze of Omega-3,6,9 complex, Vit D, glucosamine-chondroitin and calcium.


Yep, pretty much everyone should take fish oil supplements (krill oil is best) and vitamin d regardless of arthritis or not.

It's basically impossible for anyone to get enough omega unless they eat a ton of fish, which is not recommended because of heavy metal polution. And from studies they've found that practically everyone in a non sunny climate suffers from lack of sun (and some people in sunny climates because of office jobs).


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## BurtonAvenger

Chomps yeah that's it.


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## BigmountainVMD

Yep. Krill oil has the best ratios of Omega-3 to omega-6s. It is also absorbed a bit better. Many people think that fish oil has omega-3s so it is good. What is important is the RATIO of omega 3 to omega-6 in the product. Also the ratio of DHA to EPA. Krill oil, by my research, seems to have the most desirable ratios of any omega 3 product. If you want to reduce the cellular inflammation associated with arthritis, you want way more EPA than DHA. Most fish oil has more DHA, which does not help with inflammation as much.

Here is a great article about types of omega 3s:

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/in-the-zone/201204/what-are-the-real-differences-between-epa-and-dha

I have a similar issue after a meniscal tear when I was 15, and after tons of research and speaking to multiple doctors, I've found that krill oil, zyflamend, and glucosamine/chondroitin with a daily multivitamin would be the best way to supplement care for the knee.

What gets me about zyflamend is made from New Chapter, which was just purchased by Proctor and Gamble... so I'm not so sure I want to consciously support that company.


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## snowklinger

*i guess CONSCIOUSLY would be the key word....*



BigmountainVMD said:


> Proctor and Gamble... so I'm not so sure I want to consciously support that company.



too bad, you breathe air and require food and water.


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## BigmountainVMD

snowklinger said:


> too bad, you breathe air and require food and water.


Yeah I know right? Thus the "consciously" part.

I was just particularly unhappy about it because I really liked the company and then they sold out to a company that directly antagonizes what they were going for.

A good analogy would be if Mervin was sold to a company that supported increased drilling/fracking efforts and promoted deforestation through un-sustainable logging operations.


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## jml22

Osteoarthritis isn't a thing to be scared of. Ive seen people with complete degeneration and almost no meniscus and have absolutely no pain.
Rehab your feet/hips and your knees will be just fine.


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## kaborkian

Not much to add, other than my old man body does benefit from glucosamine chondroitin and staying at less-than-fat weight.

Mostly I'm tagging this lost so i can lurk and learn.


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## Fewdfreak

Definately strengthen those supporting muscles as others have mentioned-I jacked my knee years ago as a uninsured drunk college student and completely tore my PCL. Never had it repaired and after all these years later cannot tell the difference in feel of my knees even tho one is PCL deficient. I walk everywhere and I think this helped being active and using those other muscles to take the strain off the joint.


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## BigmountainVMD

kaborkian said:


> Not much to add, other than my old man body does benefit from glucosamine chondroitin and staying at less-than-fat weight.
> 
> Mostly I'm tagging this lost so i can lurk and learn.


In animal models, reducing the weight on the joint can often reduce pain, sometimes to the point of not even needing surgery.


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## firstx1017

I ride regular mostly and my right knee has been giving me problems since I switched from skiing to snowboarding. It gets really swollen and sore after our weekends of snowboarding and takes all week till we go again the following weekend and then sore again. I use a brace on it also and have been taking ibuprofen which helps. However, I HATE having to take ibuprofen that much. In my off season I have no problem hiking, biking and waterskiing/wakeboarding, but snowboarding is a problem. I was reading up and have just started taking Ginger which is a natural remedy that is suppose to help with arthritis. I also have hip pain flare up on occasion and since taking the Ginger these past 2 weeks I have no hip pain. I read it may take 6-8 weeks to see results and so I started and can't wait to see if it helps during snowboarding season. Have no idea of this is bogus or not, but I will take this until the season ends and then decide if it was bogus and either keep taking it or stop.


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## jml22

Anyone who complains of knee pain needs rehab. It means your body is not controlling the knee complex and thus not handling the forces as well as it should be. Get rid of the cause of it rather than mask the symptoms by having a look at your feet and your hips.


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## chomps1211

firstx1017 said:


> I ride regular mostly and my right knee has been giving me problems since I switched from skiing to snowboarding. It gets really swollen and sore after our weekends of snowboarding and takes all week till we go again the following weekend and then sore again....


Someone here with more knowledge than I, might be able to give you a more specific fix, but I had some knee pain in my trailing leg my first few months riding. I made a change to the angles on my bindings, (...in my case, I went a little more symmetrically ducked) I changed from a +21/-9 to +18/-12. It helped. 

You might try playing around and finessing your binding angles a bit and see if a small change there helps. I've also been reading in various posts that canted bindings can help with relieving knee pain. Worth checking out!


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## BurtonAvenger

jml22 said:


> Anyone who complains of knee pain needs rehab. It means your body is not controlling the knee complex and thus not handling the forces as well as it should be. Get rid of the cause of it rather than mask the symptoms by having a look at your feet and your hips.


Yeah because pronation doesn't do anything to your bodies alignment at all throwing off the biomechanics.


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## jml22

With snowboarding specific stuff it's mostly hip and low back stuff, because most boots prevent a ton of dorsiflexion.
Basically if you cant do a good squat, you're at a much higher risk for injuring yourself snowboarding, in terms of an overuse injury


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## tonicusa

Getting your weight back to high school days makes the most noticeable improvement. Also swapping out running in the off season with swimming will make a big difference and help you cut weight. 

Watch out with the ibuprofen. It masks the pain but it has drawbacks and risks.


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## Jed

jml22 said:


> With snowboarding specific stuff it's mostly hip and low back stuff, because most boots prevent a ton of dorsiflexion.
> Basically if you cant do a good squat, you're at a much higher risk for injuring yourself snowboarding, in terms of an overuse injury


While I don't disagree that your hip/feet/lower back can cause knee pain, I think you're overly applying your own experience to this situation. Your personal situation does not equal the situation for everyone and how your body reacts does not mean it's evidence that everyone's body will react the same way.

There are a lot of people here who can squat just fine and actively stay in great shape and still have knee pain due to wear and tear from injuries and impacts.


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## shelbybeck

PalmerFreak said:


> My right knee (regular stance) usually bothers me about half-way through the season and I never really thought much about it figuring the torque that's placed on the joint causes it to flare up. Usually by the middle of spring everything is fine and I get on with my summer activities.
> 
> This year was a bit different though. The pain lingered all the way through summer and into fall so I decided to get it looked at this past week. The pain is almost always on the inside of my knee (ACL area) and I get some swelling from time to time. I figured that if there was something wrong I'd get it taken care of quickly since - in my mind - it must be minor.
> 
> So I make an appointment with my general doctor and he asks me a bunch of questions, checks range of motion, etc. He tells me that I may have an ACL strain or a small tear in my meniscus and wants to set up an appointment with an orthopedist. He also wants to do a couple X-ray to eliminate any type of bone issues and I say fine. So I set up my appointment with the orthopedist and get the X-rays done. That afternoon a nurse leaves a message on my phone saying that the X-rays revealed arthritis in my knee.......WTF!!! I'm not a young guy by any stretch (46) but I always thought that arthritis is something I'd have to deal with much later in life. It's the first time in my life that my own mortality stared right back at me. :angry:
> 
> I did some investigating and there are a wide variety of treatment options from excercises to braces to drugs and so on but I guess I'll have to wait until I speak with the orthopedist to work up a treatment plan. I don't plan on ever getting off my board no matter what happens with my knee/s but it's a bummer.
> 
> So, are there any other peeps here that have an arthritic knee that can share there experiences and what treatments seemed to work? I read that NSAID pain relievers like Aleve work well and I ran out and got some yesterday. I popped a couple last night and they worked very well - no pain at all this morning.


yep.....I have it too.....in my left knee and the joints of my right thumb.
i'm also noticing stuff in my right elbow too....clicking and some pain.
is sucks the big banachi getting old.....it ain't for pussies.....lol
i'm 44.....but I won't stop snowboarding till the wheels fall off.


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## shelbybeck

firstx1017 said:


> I ride regular mostly and my right knee has been giving me problems since I switched from skiing to snowboarding. It gets really swollen and sore after our weekends of snowboarding and takes all week till we go again the following weekend and then sore again. I use a brace on it also and have been taking ibuprofen which helps. However, I HATE having to take ibuprofen that much. In my off season I have no problem hiking, biking and waterskiing/wakeboarding, but snowboarding is a problem. I was reading up and have just started taking Ginger which is a natural remedy that is suppose to help with arthritis. I also have hip pain flare up on occasion and since taking the Ginger these past 2 weeks I have no hip pain. I read it may take 6-8 weeks to see results and so I started and can't wait to see if it helps during snowboarding season. Have no idea of this is bogus or not, but I will take this until the season ends and then decide if it was bogus and either keep taking it or stop.


sounds like you need to adjust your bindings....or do you open your upper body a lot when you board?.....if your upper body is twisted in comparison to your lower,...it can cause knee/hip pain. If you're riding and your shoulders stay relatively quiet and pendulum smoothly while you transition cool,...if your upper body twists a lot independent of your lower...it's way more stress on your knees. If your bindings aren't set up right it can really exacerbate the problem. Don't know if you've ever considered this.


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## shelbybeck

*i totally agree...*



Jed said:


> While I don't disagree that your hip/feet/lower back can cause knee pain, I think you're overly applying your own experience to this situation. Your personal situation does not equal the situation for everyone and how your body reacts does not mean it's evidence that everyone's body will react the same way.
> 
> There are a lot of people here who can squat just fine and actively stay in great shape and still have knee pain due to wear and tear from injuries and impacts.


I actually find that snowboarding strengthens my lower back because i'm always bending down to strap in......it has strengthened my core too.
but that's just me...
when I strap in I always do it standing up....I never hunch, but always try to keep my back straight by poking my butt out slightly causing my lower back to be slightly concave, using my quads and core to stabilize myself.
damn, that was one long run-on sentence.....


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## judoant

+1 for glucosamine / joint maintenence

This stuff does wonders for me.

https://shop.lifetimefitness.com/Pr...enance/Joint-Maintenance-Formula-120ct/p/2224


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## PalmerFreak

OK, a little update. So I go see the orthopedist about a month ago and he says that it's _not_ arthritis but more likely a small tear of the meniscus. He tells me to get an MRI and we can figure out where to go from there. At the time my knee was just a minor annoyance and didn't effect my riding at all so I put off the MRI. However, over the past two weeks it's gotten more and more uncomfortable and I've started limping a bit and can't really run on it. So I finally bit the bullet and scheduled an MRI for next Friday and am hoping for the best. I went riding this morning and while it didn't bother me much during it hurt like hell afterwards. I'm hoping that this doesn't spell the end of my season but I'll no more next week. 

Thanks to everyone who offered up suggestions and tips - especially in regards to the supplements.


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## goyo

If its artritis try Synvisc-One® Official Site
Expensive, around 1,200 a pop, buy it did wonders for me.
Had it done on both of my knees.
Tennis, crossfit, regular wear and after the synvisc I was 99% better.


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## SnowDogWax

Little over two years ago I was training and tore a menisci in my knee.

The MRI orthopedic doctor said it would never heal because there was no blood flow in the area of the knee. Wanted to cut. 

As a Health & P.E. teacher for 35 years I implemented my own therapy. 

Researched 

1. Supplementation that would stimulate blood flow.
2. Ice therapy
2. Weight Training.
3. Functional training alone with core training.
4. Trigger point therapy. 
5. MiaFacia Muscle therapy.

Dealt with movement and flexibility in the ankle, pelvis, thoracic, along with explosive power. The whole nine yards total body realignment. 

After six months tested knee. First basketball, next racquetbal, bought a season pass snowboard. Which I hadn't done for ten years.

Over 100 days on slopes 2012-2013 season no pain no joint problems.

Most want a quick fix, drugs, operations, & medical morons that are practicing medicine on the herd mentality.

As snowboarders we research equipment, boards, and technique. We then with time on the slopes perfect our skills. 

Our health should get the same attention. 

One of the web sites that will help you eliminate most problems.

functionalpatterns.com


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## jml22

Functional movement and rehab is the only way... Removing a meniscus is such an old archaic method.
Injections of plasma rich protein or nothing if you're going the medical route.
Or just good rehab since that's what you have to do regardless of which medical procedure is chosen


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## larrytbull

jml22 said:


> Functional movement and rehab is the only way... Removing a meniscus is such an old archaic method.
> Injections of plasma rich protein or nothing if you're going the medical route.
> Or just good rehab since that's what you have to do regardless of which medical procedure is chosen


+1 on PRP i did that all summer, its very $$ but that is not be all end all if you have meniscal tears, The only thing that may help for tears is stem cell surgery to regrow of cartilidge very pricey and not conclusive as to how long new cartiledge will last. PRP is better to help heal the tendons. 
for just arthritic pain a good brace like the don joy reaction helps 

2 Knees done over last 20 years. trying the syn visc now. Hoping for best. my mri was inconclusive, and the only options were syn visc and brace or another scope to check out if issue was scar tissue or new tear. 

Chose the first option.

Good luck with what you choose, sometime it is easier to live with tear than scope it


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## East§ide

fwiw,
my youngest sister (16 years old now) has had arthritis since she was 18 months old. arthritis is generally thought of as an older persons disease however it affects millions of people worldwide of all ages. because it is commonly an immune disorder, you should really try to manage it without the help of drugs as many of the drugs can severely limit your immune system and lead to many other complications - many of which my sister has experienced including staph, mersa, stress fractures in vertebrae, lesions on her spleen, legs, feet, etc . the best thing you can do is try so stay active, do physical therapy if available, try and change your eating habits (gluten free is supposed to be extremely helpful) and hopefully you will be okay!

good luck!


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## jml22

Arthritis is a general term people throw around like candy. There are many different types of arthritis.
To the medical community it just means inflammation of a joint..... to most people in the medical community, if there is pain they blame it on arthtitis and forget to ask WHY is it inflamed in the first place.

Here's an interesting article on menisci surgery. 
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/26/health/common-knee-surgery-does-very-little-for-some-study-suggests.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0


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## PalmerFreak

Thanks for the link to the article - very interesting. What really got me thinking is that the article mentions that some people that have meniscal tears also have arthritis and the arthritis is what's causing the pain and not the meniscal tear. My regular Doctor thought that the x-Ray showed arthritis while the orthopedist thinks that I have a meniscal tear so maybe I'm in the same boat. I'm definitely going to have a long talk with the orthopedist (after the MRI) if he recommends that I go under the knife.


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## jml22

So the knee is an inherently unstable joint because we sit so f'ing much. When this happens, the body lays down bone to to try to protect the area. 
Osteoarthritis is our body's way of trying to stabilize an area. It's the attempt to solve a problem, when the problem is instability.
So functional rehab is the solution. Muscle that can conttrol your body in every direction through every activity will stop Bones and joints from jamming in together etc....


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## tonicusa

PalmerFreak said:


> Thanks for the link to the article - very interesting. What really got me thinking is that the article mentions that some people that have meniscal tears also have arthritis and the arthritis is what's causing the pain and not the meniscal tear. My regular Doctor thought that the x-Ray showed arthritis while the orthopedist thinks that I have a meniscal tear so maybe I'm in the same boat. I'm definitely going to have a long talk with the orthopedist (after the MRI) if he recommends that I go under the knife.


That's me. And while rehab of a torn meniscus sounds great it doesn't work if the tear is significant enough that its clicking and catching in the joint. I've torn both meniscus and have arthritic damage in both knees from 20 years of riding. I do agree that every little thing helps. Off season I cut back on my running and added swimming. Keep body mass leaner. Avoid alcohol and caffeine anything that will deposit uric acid in the joints. Gave up Brazilian girls.


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## jml22

If the tear is significant enough to lock your knee, there are ways around that. That's why some joint mobilization stuff comes in handy so you can cycle the fluid around giving it a better chance to smooth everything out.
I've seen perfect knees who are in pain chronically and completely degenerated bone on bone knees that have no pain at all.
The fundamental difference is can your muscles to the job.
I'm looking for the ACL study/video where they did the same with ACL surgeries, same answer was rehab!


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## PalmerFreak

So I got my MRI on Friday and the doctor got the results this morning. It is a torn meniscus and I have an appointment on Friday to look at the MRI images and discuss things. The doc relayed through his nurse that surgery is what he'd recommend and that he would expect that I would be back on my board before the end of the season - I'm very happy about that. The nurse that works with my orthopedist said that if you're in good shape she's had people running two weeks after the surgery. They have an opening next Thursday (1/16) which means if everything goes well I _could_ be back on my board the first week in February. 

I am going to talk to the orthopedist about non-surgical options but I'm thinking that it will take longer to rehab this than it will to go under the knife. :dunno:

So, would you go under the knife to salvage a season or try to avoid the knife by doing rehab and maybe call it quits for 2014? Am I being too short-sighted in trying to save this season? We've gotten more snow at this point in the season than I can remember and would hate to miss it.


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## larrytbull

Depends on how well in shape and your rehab regimen. I had both knees scoped, took me at least 6 month to be feeling good but I did not do.a.superb regimen at rehabilitation.


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## jml22

They're full of shit.
Fuck i hate surgeons sometimes, well nurses in this case. The don't know! They don't deal with the patient the second they leave the hospital where the surgery is done. They don't have to deal with all the fuck ups, your rehab people do. 
You can return to walking on it after 2 weeks, that doesn't mean you can snowboard on it without hurting yourself again. So fucking retarded that pisses me off.
By not using your quads, you lose a crazy amount of strength in the 2 weeks. This leads to tearing an ACL or some other shit.


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## jml22

Ok maybe i overreacted a little bit lol.
I just play it on the conservative side and 2 weeks makes me raise my eyebrow lol.
Talk to the surgeon, not the nurse.


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## PalmerFreak

Thanks for the input jml. I'll know more Friday and can hopefully make a good decision on how to proceed. I really want to ride again this season but if there's a good chance that I could make things worse I'll shut it down.


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## jml22

My friend said his wife said she would get people after meniscus surgeries up and running after 2 weeks <--- still super skeptical
He said it's surprisingly quick. We're still skeptical because we look for non surgical options before anything else, but it's definitely your choice.


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## larrytbull

look at it this way. if the pain is not limiting what you want to do on an everyday basis then you may want to consider either not doing anything immediately and wait to see if the pain subsides enough over time to not get surgery however if your tear is serious enough that it is impairing your ability to get around then you may want to get the knife right away. personally for me, the pain was so bad that I was taking painkillers 24 x7 and not able to walk without a severe limp and with the inflammation I was unable to bend more than 90 degrees. I chose the surgery. The surgery will have consequences later in life. it will hasten getting arthritis in the joints due to missing cartilage and scar tissue from surgery. As one of the Online poster mentioned earlier there are other alternatives to repair rather than remove. these are $$$ and some won't work if you are over 16 or 17. The most promising I have seen is stem cell surgery but this is not covered by insurance (I have really tried hard to get them to do so). Don't rush this unless the injury is a such a state that it is really impairing your mobility.

never seen or heard anyone running after 2 weeks. even pro athletes are at least a few months before they are back on the field. The surgery wil stoop the pain, but there will be inflammation and muscle loss which takes time to bring back. 

Just my .02 cents take it for what it's worth. I've been in your knees more than once and still trying to get them fixed right (I'm getting my first ortho visc treatment this week.)


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## PalmerFreak

I don't know how bad the tear is at this point and hope to get that info on Friday. I was out boarding just a few weeks ago and it's gotten increasingly more painful over that time to the point where it's hard to sleep at times and I'm walking with a limp. I'd prefer to not go under the knife but I may not have much of a choice.


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## tonicusa

I have had meniscus surgery twice. Once on my left and once on my right. 

MAKE SURE you educate yourself and faithfully follow all of the seemingly annoying rehab. The most important part of the rehab process is working on the small muscle groups and implementing all of the appropriate exercises. It's much more enticing to just hit the gym and do all of the "obvious" leg workouts, but that is a mistake. Leg curls, extensions, lunges, squats, those things only help later and in conjunction with the "small muscle" exercises. 

Also get your motion back within 48 hours. It will help avoid blood clots and speed recovery. Check out Duke University, they did a study on their athletes recovery from meniscus surgery and its really enlightening. I followed their program and was boarding after 6 weeks. They recommend being on a stationary bike after the first 48 hours (lightly) and it works. If you skip any rehab it will set you back exponentially.


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## Fergatron2000

*I just had my knee examined...*

with what sounds like the exact same symptoms. I figured it was a meniscal tear on the medial left knee, which is my front foot knee. I went to an orthopedist after 6weeks in pain. With only Xrays and physical tests he determined I had no tear, but pain from overuse on a normally degenerative posterior medial meniscus for my age of 41 and activity level.

I was pretty set on getting a 2nd opinion and/or MRI because it was just killing me- limping most of the time, no way I could run or ride. So my wife throws out going gluten free for a week to see if it helped. A friend of ours swears it rid his knees of arthritic pain. I think American pussy, fad, alergen diets are terrible, but... after two days of zero gluten my knee feels at least 60-70% better. 

Could be just coincidence. But it's the first day my knee has begun to feel better in almost 2 months. Gluten free beer sucks though. The only thing I've found that's OK so far is Omission Pale Ale at $10 a six pack.


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## PalmerFreak

OK, so I go see the orthopedist yesterday and it's a bucket-handle tear of the medial meniscus in my right knee. Not surprisingly, the doc (he's a skier and specializes in sports medicine) wants to scope my knee. Here's an image from the MRI that shows the tear:

 

I spoke with him about non-surgical options and he said that we could try rehab but that it would take weeks to see if it would be sufficient to heal me up. If rehab doesn't work, I'd end up going under the knife anyway and the season would be wasted. If I go under the knife he says that he wouldn't recommend getting back on a board in two weeks (depending on what they find once they're inside my knee and the rehab) but he could see me back riding within a month - if all goes well. While getting back on my board this season is a factor the larger issue is my job. I'm a technical trainer for an optical machinery manufacturer and I'm on my feet a lot and travel a fair amount. While a non-surgical option would be preferable I don't think I can wait weeks and still do my job effectively. 

So after taking some time to deliberate I'm going to have the surgery done this coming Thursday, 1/16. I'll use this thread to share my experiences as I go through this ordeal if anyone is interested.


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## jml22

GL man, hopefully it's a quick and easy surgery. Just make sure you have all the post surgery stuff planned out.
Like who's gonna do your rehab etc etc....


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## PalmerFreak

*Day 1*

So I had my meniscus procedure done this morning. Got to the hospital at 5:45am to go through all of the pre-op stuff and the doctor started the procedure at 7:30am. It took all of 16 minutes and I woke up at about 8:30am. I felt a little groggy but other than that no real issues. Had a short appointment with one of the rehab people and she gave me a list of exercises that I should do at home. At this point I don't have any rehab sessions set up - they will evaluate me in a week to see how I'm progressing. 

Got home and iced it for 30 minutes and am now doing the light exercises that they gave me. I'll be switching between exercise/ice at certain intervals over the next couple of days transitioning to exercise only as the suture pain and swelling subsides. 

So far, so good.......


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## tradnwaves4snow

PalmerFreak said:


> *Day 1*
> So far, so good.......


best of luck mate. did you get any cool pics of the inside of your knee. my mate just had surgery for a torn ACL and the pics from the keyhole surgery camera look awesome


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## PalmerFreak

*Day 2*

Thanks for the kind words. 

The doc did take pics of the inside of my knee and I hope to get my hands on them at some point and will post them. 

I feel pretty good this morning. Got up and did my exercises and am going to go into work. I sit most of the day so it shouldn't be a problem. I haven't needed to use crutches and I'm able to get my leg bent past 45 degrees. I get to remove the dressing tomorrow morning and am then going to go to the gym and do some light work on the stationary bike as recommended


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## PalmerFreak

*Day 3*

Things are progressing nicely. I'm continuing to do my exercises and my range of movement continues to improve. I don't really have any pain but it's a little stiff at times. I got a prescription for 40 Vicodin but haven't had it filled. I've been using over the counter pain relievers - narcotics scare me.  I'm able to walk OK and go up and down stairs without much trouble.

I took off the dressings this morning and here's what it looks like:


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## jml22

Nice. let me know if you have any questions.


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## PalmerFreak

*Days 4 and 5*

Things are still progressing nicely but the knee is still stiff at times. I went to the gym tonight and was on the stationary bike for 10 minutes and some leg extensions with very low weight without any pain. Gonna do my exercises before I go to bed and ice it some more. 

I see the doc on 1/30 and I'm shooting to be back on my board on 2/1 to do some light riding. That might be to aggressive but I figured I would set a goal and work towards it and see how things unfold.


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## t21

man looking at that post surgery pic just makes me cringe:dizzy: seems like its going well so far for you. hope you have a full recovery before the season ends. goodluck!


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## PalmerFreak

*Day 6*

I had a little pain in what seems like the knee joint tonight which surprised me a little. I felt a little click in my knee as I flexed it which had disappeared after I had the surgery. The pain was close to one of the suture locations so maybe it's not actual joint pain but I'll reevaluate in the morning after I've had some time to rest. I have been pushing things pretty hard and have been up on it a lot. I'm thinking that I may need to back off a little bit on the physical side of things and relax/ice some more.


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## PalmerFreak

*Day 7*

I decided to stay off my feet and ice more often today and the knee feels much better. It seems that I was pushing a little too hard and need to rest more in between my exercise sessions.


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## jml22

Don't forget to train your glutes


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## PalmerFreak

I've been doing butt scrunches as part of my exercise program.


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## jml22

Don't forget, clamshells, good lateral lunges and forward lunges be picky not to let your knee interally rotate.... usualyl this is how the injury started so it's best to train in a way that fixes the reason it happened


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## PalmerFreak

Thanks for the tips!!

*Days 8 and 9*

Things are going much better since I backed off a little on my activity level. I still do all of my exercises but I don't trot all over the building while at work. I've been spending more time at my desk with my leg elevated and ice it 4-5 times per day. No real pain in the joint and my range of movement is still increasing while the stiffness is decreasing. I'm going to stay the course and ease my way into some of the more advanced exercises over the weekend. I see the ortho doc next Friday and I'm hoping to be back out doing some light riding (if things keep improving) in the early/mid part of February.


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## PalmerFreak

*Days 9 and 10*

Things are still going well but when I over-do it my kne lets me know about it. Yesterday I went down to Chicago with the GF and while she took her daughters to American Girl (what a racket that place has going) I wandered a few blocks to the North Face store and then another couple of blocks to the Burton flagship store. By the time I got back in the car my knee was aching. Got home last night and took some ibuprofen and iced it up. Felt pretty good by the time I went to bed. Woke up this morning to about 4 inches of snow and went out to shovel. Got back inside afterwards and the knee was stiff and hurting a bit. It's going to be -20 tomorrow and I wanted to get the snow cleared before it's gets brutally cold. On the couch right now icing it up and am gonna relax the rest of the day. 

I'm able to bend the knee well past 90° now and am going to try some of the more advanced exercises starting tomorrow.


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## PalmerFreak

*Days 11 and 12*

Range of motion is almost back to normal but there is a bit of stiffness/pain when I really bend it. Other than that, pain is almost nonexistent and my limp is almost gone. I see the orthopedist Friday afternoon so he can check on my progress and remove the stitches. I'd love to do some light riding this weekend if he says it's OK but I'm thinking that the weekend of 2/8 is more likely.


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## t21

Sounds like you are getting close to riding again:thumbsup: just take it one day at a time and you'll soon be boarding again. Keep it up!


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## PalmerFreak

Thanks for the good vibes!!


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## PalmerFreak

*Days 13, 14, and 15*

Range of motion continues to improve and am working on getting my leg flat when trying to straighten it out. Seems a bit stiff when I do that but it's getting better each day. 

Shoveled some snow last night which seems to make my knee angry but not much I can do about it. Took some ibuprofen and iced it and it was OK this morning. 

Went to see the orthopedist today and got my stitches removed. My knee feels much better with the stitches out, the pull on my skin was creating more pain than anything else which is a bit odd. The only pain that I feel in the joint now is when I hyperextend it which the doc thinks will go away as soon as I can get my leg to completely straighten without any pain. I saw the photos of the inside of my knee - they were pretty cool and I'm trying to get my hands on digital copies of them. The doc removed about 25% of my medial meniscus and found a little arthritis. He said I could start riding as soon as my knee feels right - it's really up to me. I did ask for a single rehab appointment to make sure I'm doing all of the exercises properly and will try to get in this week. I decided go to the gym tonight and got some light leg work in and it feels pretty good right now. 

I'm going to wait until next weekend before trying any light riding. I just bought a pair of Flow NX2-RS bindings with the 2.5° canted beds and will install them next week. I normally ride 12/0 but I think I'm going to open up my rear foot a bit. I think that my stance has contributed to my injury over the years and want to remove as much stress from my knee as possible. I'm heading to the Vitamin Shoppe tomorrow to get some of the Zyflamend that BA recommended so I hope that helps out as well.


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## jml22

Lunge/clamshells/lateral lunges
Don't let the knees buckle!


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## t21

I ride regular stance like you, i have knee issues for a long time along with my lower back. Riding for four seasons now and i just opened up my stance width to 22.75" from 21", switch my angles from 12/-12 to 12/-9 and had been riding this stance for two weekends now and my knees (especially my right knee) is not as sore like they use to be, and that's a plus for this 45 yr.old guy:laugh: Goodluck with the rehab and your soon to be "return to shredding" day:thumbsup:


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## PalmerFreak

*Days 16 and 17*

Thanks for tips and good vibes - it's much appreciated. :thumbsup:

I started on some of the more advanced strengthening exercises yesterday and the knee is holding up well. I noticed a pretty sizeable improvement today and am walking without a limp. I still have some pain when trying to bend my leg fully and straighten it out completely but it felt almost normal today when I was out and about. 

At this point I'm gonna be riding this coming weekend for sure, maybe even Wednesday night. I'm gonna start slow and just get a feel for how far I can push it.


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## jml22

As you're going to notice since you're doing these exercises, you're going to be able to ride a lot better.
You're going to be able to get lower, charge harder and pretty much do everything better/faster


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## PalmerFreak

*Days 18, 19, 20, and 21*

Not much to report on days 18 and 19, just more rehab. Decided to get back on my board last night with a few people from work who are in for training. Did the bunny hill a couple times and the main run once and felt OK - strength felt good and no instability issues. It did swell up a bit and was a little sore but some ice and ibuprofen fixed that up. I feel pretty good today and am thinking about going again on Saturday or Sunday. 

So, from under the knife to back on my deck in 20 days. I'm not 100% but I've got another 5 weeks or so (minimum) left to my season so I should be able to get there if all goes well. 

I didn't have a chance to put my new canted Flow NX2's on this week and am hoping to have them on for the weekend. 

Thanks to all for the good vibes - especially jml22 and t21 - it's much appreciated.


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## firstx1017

Curious - did the area that was hurting before the surgery go away when you got back on the board?


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## PalmerFreak

Yup, the constant pain on the inside of my knee went away but early on if I over did it it would ache a bit in the same spot until I iced it.


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## PalmerFreak

Put my new Flow NX2-RS bindings on the TRice and went to the hill on Saturday. I'm not quite back to full speed yet but I'm getting close. I think the 2.5 degree canting and my tweaked binding angles (went from 15/0 to 15/-9) are going to help quite a bit. Felt pretty good when I woke up on Sunday and I'm hoping to get back out a couple times this week and the weekend for sure.

I'm glad that I only missed about a month and can take advantage of all of the snow we've gotten!! :yahoo:


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## PalmerFreak

Just got back from the hill and I'm pretty much back to full speed. The new bindings are great and the knee feels good. I'm sitting on the couch and I don't have any pain or stiffness. :thumbsup:


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## chomps1211

PalmerFreak said:


> Just got back from the hill and I'm pretty much back to full speed. The new bindings are great and the knee feels good. I'm sitting on the couch and I don't have any pain or stiffness. :thumbsup:


:thumbsup: Great news! Glad to hear your op, rehab, and best of all New Gear, worked out and improved things for you.


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## jml22

Glad to hear it. Keep at it, don't stop and you'll see how much easier boarding is when your hips are in shape.


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## PalmerFreak

Thanks guys. I'm going again this morning and it will be interesting to see how it feels after consecutive days. It's -4 right now but it's a beautiful sunny morning so I'll just add a layer and roll with it. 

I've put on 5 pounds over the past month or so since I couldn't do much cardio but I'm gonna get back at it this coming week. I've been taking Zylflamend for the past couple of weeks and I'm hoping that it helps with my joints.


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## jml22

How's it going?


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## PalmerFreak

It's going pretty well - thanks for asking. Been riding for the past month and the knee feels pretty good. It still gets a little stiff at times but I'm back in the gym and working on the supporting muscle groups.


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## dsdavis

This was an interesting thread to read! Thanks for taking the time to document your process.

Hope things continue to go well for you!


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## PalmerFreak

No problem, I wish I could change the title of the thread though.


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