# Help with linking turns?



## Guest (Mar 11, 2010)

Hi I live in Colorado but i've skied for like 5 years because snowboarding made me really sore. But I'm actually trying to learn now. I'm going up for my second time tomorrow, on the first time up I started bad but by lunch I could get down a green only falling a few times. I could like turn okay but I think my balance was off or something cause i had to kick my back foot really hard if i wanted to turn. And because i was kicking my back foot as soon as the sun came out after lunch and the snow got sticky i couldn't turn at all. So jw, like how do you all turn? I see dudes turning and it looks so easy. idk please help me


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## Guest (Mar 11, 2010)

Turning is a complicated thing on a snowboard. You can't just learn how to turn by reading up how to do it, you need someone who knows what they're doing to teach you.
There's a few reasons for that
1) You'll need a visual demonstration on how its done

2) You won't know what you're doing thats wrong, where as that person can tell you what you're doing wrong, and they can tell you what to improve on

3) If I were to explain it, it probably wouldn't make much sence 

Your probably better off getting a private lesson.


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## Guest (Mar 11, 2010)

I've gotten one group lesson but private lessons are a hard thing to pay for with a street pharmacist's paycheck. When you turn do you kick your foot or do you lean over your toe/heel edge to turn?


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## Guest (Mar 11, 2010)

Never ever ever ever ever ever kick your foot out!
That is a really bad habit you don't want.
Beginner turns are all done in the upper body
Your legs really aren't doing any of the work, your legs are bend with a little more pressure on your front foot.
To turn, you LOOK in the direction you want to go, and point your front hand in that direction.
It might sound easy, but its a lot harder than you think.


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## arsenic0 (Nov 11, 2008)

Theres plenty of Videos posted here Snowolf made that give you good tips.

Dont be kicking your legs around, its horrible form, will get you hurt and you will tire very quickly.

Squat down and stick your ass out to get on your heel edge...push your shins into your boots(forcing you to bend your knee's and push your hips out) to go toe side...sounds easy but its not...thats why you just keep practicing! 

Also a possibility is that your board is too big if you are trying to throw it around with your feet, a lot of people do this ive seen..if you have what size it is and your height/weight that'd help.


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## dharmashred (Apr 16, 2009)

Mere said:


> Beginner turns are all done in the upper body
> Your legs really aren't doing any of the work, your legs are bend with a little more pressure on your front foot.
> To turn, you LOOK in the direction you want to go, and point your front hand in that direction.


Not necessarily correct. And this sounds a lot like the "shoulder method". If anyone tells you to turn with your shoulder...run...run _fast_... It took me a while to correct myself from this completely incorrect method of basic linked turns. No upper body! With basic linked turns (beginner turns) you'll want your body to stay parallel with the board. You really don't want to start twisting your upper body around at this point, that can lead to a nasty edge catch. Also, the 'turning your head' is not really a guideline. In some instances, it helps because your body will naturally go in the direction you are looking, but don't depend on this because it may or may not work for you. That said,

To engage your turn, arsenic's points are all helpful. As you are riding, check your body position, you want to have your shoulders parallel with the board and your front hip slightly forward. When you are ready to engage your turn, it starts with your ankle. You want to push your foot up (in either direction depending on your edge) using your front ankle to engage the turn. At this point, your rear foot is merely following, a split second after you have applied the pressure to your front foot and have begun to engage the turn, allow your rear foot to simply follow to complete the turn. Don't rush it, because without the proper speed or engaging at the right part of the turn, you can easily catch an edge. Something that helped me was to take a step back to basics. Try riding your board on a gentle green or blue (if you're comfortable) run, ride flat and gain just enough speed before you start to sketch out and feel nervous, and then engage your front foot and ankle and make a J-turn, then bring yourself to a stop. This will help you to be comfortable with not only the speed, but the right moment to begin the turn, and you'll also know that you are capable of pulling the brakes when necessary. You'll probably find you can wait just a little bit longer for the turn and it will feel much more fluid. The key to turns is to _waaaait for it_. They come when it's right and you eat shit when you force em! Just keep practicing, I know it's frustrating. Watch Snowolf's vids and SnowProRick's vids, they are beyond helpful. 
beyond superb, super helpful technical information. http://www.snowboardingforum.com/tips-tricks-instructors/20624-struggling-toeside-turns.html Do some searches for other posts and most specifically, Snowolf's comments on them. They are precise, right on and you can apply them easily. If you are able to, a lesson will invaluable to you right now!

I hope this is helpful! Every rider goes through this in the beginning, once you breakthrough it will feel amazing, then it will be on to the next step! Our work is never done, but daaayamn it's soo much fun! Keep it up :thumbsup:


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## Guest (Mar 13, 2010)

dharmashred said:


> Not necessarily correct. And this sounds a lot like the "shoulder method". If anyone tells you to turn with your shoulder...run...run _fast_... It took me a while to correct myself from this completely incorrect method of basic linked turns. No upper body!


Well, what you call very incorrect is what CASI teaches. I personally completely agree with what CASI teaches; it works, and my students are perfect examples of that. This is the exact description of a beginner turn in the CASI book:
"At the beginner level the emphasis is on stance and balance, and pivoting to produce a chance in direction. Other than direction and edge change, very little performance is achieved. Beginner turns could be described as little more than linked sideslipping. Upper body rotation is used to initiate the turn. Flexion and extension, is not stressed, but may occur naturally. Edge change occurs at or below the fall line."


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## dharmashred (Apr 16, 2009)

Mere said:


> Well, what you call very incorrect is what CASI teaches. I personally completely agree with what CASI teaches; it works, and my students are perfect examples of that. This is the exact description of a beginner turn in the CASI book:
> "At the beginner level the emphasis is on stance and balance, and pivoting to produce a chance in direction. Other than direction and edge change, very little performance is achieved. Beginner turns could be described as little more than linked sideslipping. Upper body rotation is used to initiate the turn. Flexion and extension, is not stressed, but may occur naturally. Edge change occurs at or below the fall line."


My apologies if you misinterpreted "not necessarily" to mean "_very incorrect_". I am certainly not a CASI instructor, an AASI instructor, nor any sort of expert. Simply trying to render some assistance from personal experience. Different methods work for different people, and I am just a 'mere' student wanting to pass along some tips that were helpful for me beyond measure, from my personal experience. 

A quick google produces the following from the AASI certification manual:

*J- Turns, both directions* 
Turn shapes are symmetrical, aligned stance, rotary movements from the ankles, knees and hips

*Basic Skidded Turns* 
Aligned stance, smooth linked turns of approximate same size, rotation from the ankles, knees and hips

Oh, and as an instructor, I am not necessarily certain that the words "you can't" belong in your vocab. We all reach plateaus at a point, and yes, personal instruction is invaluable, but with determination, focus, and a burning will in your stomach, the word "CAN'T" should never exist until proven so. Personally, I continue to learn whatever I can through reading, applying, falling, then trying again.


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## Guest (Mar 13, 2010)

Well, the two descriptions I posted are BEGINNER turns. Like I said, your legs aren't doing most of the work, your upper body is. You begin to use your lower body as you progess and advance.


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## Guest (Mar 13, 2010)

I'm an instructor and i mostly teach beginner lessons so let me try to explain it as simple as i can.
1. shift your hips over your front foot. *basically the most important part*
2.keep your shoulders straight with your board. (going straight down the hill you should turn your head over your shoulder to look down hill)
3. keep your knees bent just a little
4. stand up straight (sounds weird with the knees but you should be fairly comfertable)
5. dont swing your arms. keep them calm
thats just the stance we teach at my hill
This is where it gets wordy and hard to explain over the internet
LINKING TURNS
(heal turn first)
1. on your heals put your front foot toe down first. Leave the back foot in its heal turn.
2. when the board is straight down the hill put the other toe down. You should now be in a toe turn.
Replace heal with toe to turn the other way. Good luck! Hope this helped.
Just a little more we teach before that is when you do a heal turn lift your toes and lean on your heals. Opposite for toes, lift your heals and lean on your toes.


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## Guest (Mar 13, 2010)

Snowolf said:


> I think being a slave to dogma makes for an ineffective and inflexible instructor.


absolutely.

that said, to mere, if students are taught to initiate with upper body movement, the logical progression, when they have trouble controlling their board is more exaggerated upper boady movement - because they can't use leg/lower body steering, they'll have to use more and more upper body rotation to get the board to turn. they'll inevitably start kicking their back leg out to get the tail round too. further, the onbly tool they'll have to compensate for excessive upper-body rotation is counter rotation of same. after a few weeks or months, they'll be able to ride around the mountain but they'll have developed a bucketful of 'bad' (for want of a better term) habits. when it comes to more challenging technique (e.g. carving) or terrain, they'll struggling. finally, unlearning these 'bad' habits so they can progress will be near impossible.

aasi doesn't teach the way it teaches because we're a bunch of technique snobs - we do it because these fundamentals form a solid platform on which riding progression can be built.

alasdair


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## Guest (Mar 13, 2010)

Man, everyone is totally against me at this point but I'm gunna continue with this debate. 

I still disagree with teaching beginner turns using the lower body. The way that I teach my students is to look where you want to go. However, I will make them overexaggurate that. For example, if your regular footed, on your heel edge, and you want to make a turn, I will tell them to slowly look to the right, and don't stop looking, until your looking uphill. And once they are looking up hill, their hand will also point uphill. CASI does not teach us to overexaggurate turns, but this method that I've pretty much invented works like a beauty for me. If my student does this correctly, there is no kicking of the backleg. I have never ever had a student do that in my 5 years of instructing. Sure, they will fall, but the most common reason of my students falling is that they don't put enough pressure on their front foot which is normal, I did that too when I learned how to snowboard. Anyhoo, thats the way that I teach, it works for my students, regardless if you think its wrong or not, I'm gunna keep on teaching that way. 

Also, I am definitely not saying that your method of teaching is wrong. As you said, CASI and AASI have pretty different views of methods when it comes to teaching.


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## Guest (Mar 13, 2010)

I can agree with you 100% that going down steeper terrian, you'll definitely need to initiate using the lower body. Thats for sure. But what I'm saying, is that when your first learning how to turn, that is how I will teach it. I will only take my students to a green hill once they are able to do beginner turns. I'm talking I wanna see your turn without falling and looking and feeling confident. Once I take a student to a more advaced hill from the bunny hill, I will teach them how to use their lower body. It is important to use your lower body, but teaching a never ever how to turn with the lower body is something I have never even heard of up until I joined this site.


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## Guest (Mar 13, 2010)

I honestly find that interesting. I kinda understand the AASI method, but I'm still rather true to the CASI technique.


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## Guest (Mar 13, 2010)

The AASI way of teaching doesn't make much sence to me, but then again the CASI way probably doesn't make as much sence to you either. 

The bunny hill at the resort I work at is rather perfect for beginners 









Its long enough, the very top is steeper than the rest of the pitch, so students who want challenge, I'll have them turn from the very top. We've only got 1 green hill and the pitch of it is the same pitch as the top of the bunny hill. The resort I work at is bloody tiny but it does have a lot of variety.

ps, thats me doing my thang = ]


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## Guest (Mar 14, 2010)

Mere said:


> Man, everyone is totally against me at this point but I'm gunna continue with this debate.


i'm not against you, i have a difference of opinion - there's a huge difference.

if you use upper-body rotation as the primary movement used to initiate the turn, what do you do when a student isn't getting it? do you have them rotate more? more forcefully?

alasdair


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## Guest (Mar 14, 2010)

alasdairm said:


> i'm not against you, i have a difference of opinion - there's a huge difference.
> 
> if you use upper-body rotation as the primary movement used to initiate the turn, what do you do when a student isn't getting it? do you have them rotate more? more forcefully?
> 
> alasdair


Like I said, I have my students overexaggerate their turns. Doing this will for sure initiate the turn. As I also mentioned, I have them look UP the hill and point their hands UP the hill. Doing this will also have the person come to a complete stop after completing the turn. I like having them do that so that they can think about how to do their next turn, and it also prevents them from doing donuts/ 360's down the hill.


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## Guest (Mar 14, 2010)

^ but what do you do if they are rotating and, for some reason, that's not getting them turning? what do you do next?

alasdair


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## Guest (Mar 15, 2010)

alasdairm said:


> ^ but what do you do if they are rotating and, for some reason, that's not getting them turning? what do you do next?
> 
> alasdair



If the person is looking in the direction they want to go, and they are pointing, nothing can go wrong. What I find that most people have difficulties with when it comes to turning is putting pressure on their front foot. And what I do to make them put more pressure on their foot is a little harsh, but it works like a charm. I will get them to think of someone they don't like, and I'll have them imagine that their fingers are underneath their front foot, and you wanna squish their fingers. Thus, they put a lot more pressure on their front foot and the turn is successful. 

If you are rotating and doing everything correct, there is no reason that the person wouldn't be able to complete the turn.


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## Guest (Mar 15, 2010)

Mere said:


> ...nothing can go wrong.


right.

alasdair


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## jlm1976 (Feb 26, 2009)

*It depends.....*

I think that in teaching snowboarding, especially to beginners, you can't have a stock lesson. Everyone learns differently, and different movements come naturally to different people. For some people, hip rotation comes really naturally while others like foot steering. As an instructor you should be prepared for this and be ready to adapt your lesson accordingly. 
For me personally, I don't really talk much about body movments in a beginner lesson. I tell them what they need to make the board do and let them work out how to make it happen. As long as the board is doing what it is supposed to, it's all good.


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## Random Hero (Sep 30, 2008)

No one listen to Mere, she's dating a skier. Thus she has no clue what she's talking about.


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