# sierra snowboards wtf?



## MunkySpunk (Jan 7, 2009)

Never heard of them.


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## Lians60 (Jan 28, 2009)

I think sierrasnowboards is a pretty cool shop.


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## B.Gilly (Jul 23, 2008)

Small shops have a special niche to fill. Since I started a small shop this season have noticed a few come in to test product but 80 percent of them purchase from me instead of online. They like being able to stop in and ask questions about their gear. Or when the see me on the slopes they ask about what is new. 

Nothing like stopping in a shop and learning something new hands on compared to just reading or watching a video on how to do it. 

I do not have the inventory they do but think just standing there talking to someone weighs a lot more then emails or chatting.

I do make a point to talk to customers when I see them on the slopes, it makes a world of difference.


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## SPAZ (May 2, 2009)

MunkySpunk said:


> Never heard of them.


are you being sarcastic?


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## sevenstarsfall (Jan 16, 2010)

Sierra snowboards is one of my local shops :dunno:


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## B.Gilly (Jul 23, 2008)

sevenstarsfall said:


> Sierra snowboards is one of my local shops :dunno:


Not bashing them at all. If they where not your local shop would you shop there though. Also probably half there customers or more I would assume are not local. To me that is like calling a car dealership and ordering a car without going down there to look at it. Which is fine if you know what you want. But a bit hard if you are not sure on exactly what you want.

I have ordered from them myself because the lack of options in my area. Good store that has quantities I do not. Have even suggested them to customers who where looking for specific things that I do not carry.


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## BurtonAvenger (Aug 14, 2007)

Yeah support a fucking patio warehouse woo hoo. Frankly the best thing that could happen in the snowboard industry is for fucking companies to stop over producing and dumping their products on sites like that which undercut everyone.


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## NoTickets (Jan 16, 2010)

yanno, following that link, i think the poster may be talking about capita, and not sierra as a whole..

capita's graphics please a very niche group. very good boards


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## sevenstarsfall (Jan 16, 2010)

B.Gilly said:


> Not bashing them at all. If they where not your local shop would you shop there though. Also probably half there customers or more I would assume are not local. To me that is like calling a car dealership and ordering a car without going down there to look at it. Which is fine if you know what you want. But a bit hard if you are not sure on exactly what you want.
> 
> I have ordered from them myself because the lack of options in my area. Good store that has quantities I do not. Have even suggested them to customers who where looking for specific things that I do not carry.


I actually havent shopped there so far and was just stating they were local to me.


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## NoTickets (Jan 16, 2010)

mjd said:


> how does a really cool local board shop compete with this? *fucking ugly*.


might be just me, but i'm not so sure that "fucking ugly" refers to prices lol.


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## NoTickets (Jan 16, 2010)

methinks people misinterpreted what the poster was trying to say, and started talking about pricing. i guess the original post was pretty vague


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## Guest (Feb 3, 2010)

I saved $210 when I baught my Burton Joystick and Mission bindings there. The local shops will have to compete to get my business because I dont like throwing away my money.


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## adam2433 (Dec 31, 2009)

isnt competition a pillar of capitalism? other shops whether online or local should find a way to compete with sierra's sales. be it customer service, better prices, etc. im surprised to see people complaining.


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## fredericp64 (Jan 4, 2010)

What's ugly is the local shops CAN'T compete, I think that's the idea trying to be conveyed here.


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## adam2433 (Dec 31, 2009)

than local shops can die off for all i care. capitalism is about the survival of the fittest. like someone else said... i dont like throwing my money away so ill go where the best deal is.


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## Veccster (Dec 31, 2007)

It sucks that the local shops are getting squeezed out because of technology (mostly the internet) and the desire to save a few bucks (which I fully understand). I wish I could get all of my tools and house stuff from local hardware stores but Lowes, HD and Wal-Fart have much lower prices. 

They get quantity discounts and can undercut the small shops who probably have smaller profit margins on more expensive boards. 

Sorry but I also buy online to save money (and avoid sales tax). I wish my local shops could offer those prices but they just can't. I do at least ask them first.


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## Guest (Feb 3, 2010)

adam2433 said:


> than local shops can die off for all i care. capitalism is about the survival of the fittest. like someone else said... i dont like throwing my money away so ill go where the best deal is.


I understand trying to support the local shops but giving them a extra couple hundred for a board is insane. Same product but more money at the local shop is basically throwing your money away.


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## Bizzman (Dec 31, 2009)

when will siera up it to 50% off?


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## NoTickets (Jan 16, 2010)

soon as they're done selling the good shit, or we run out of money to buy what they've got at 30%


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## Bizzman (Dec 31, 2009)

so i should buy my boots then, and prob my jacket..cuz their good lol


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## NoTickets (Jan 16, 2010)

i'd say so. plus, if they decide to run it down to 50-70 off in the next month or so, you can get price adjusted and get a gift card for the difference.


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## Bizzman (Dec 31, 2009)

NoTickets said:


> i'd say so. plus, if they decide to run it down to 50-70 off in the next month or so, you can get price adjusted and get a gift card for the difference.


wow really, then there is no reason why not to buy them...that crazy, uve gotten gift card


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## mjd (Mar 13, 2009)

NoTickets said:


> yanno, following that link, i think the poster may be talking about capita, and not sierra as a whole..
> 
> capita's graphics please a very niche group. very good boards


no, i'm talking about sierra.


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## NoTickets (Jan 16, 2010)

mjd said:


> no, i'm talking about sierra.


word. i stand corrected. :thumbsup:


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## mjd (Mar 13, 2009)

adam2433 said:


> than local shops can die off for all i care. capitalism is about the survival of the fittest. like someone else said... i dont like throwing my money away so ill go where the best deal is.


yea that's what i mean. you're a fucking poser.


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## rjattack19 (Nov 7, 2008)

i would love to support local shops. and i do when i can, i purchase things such as gloves or boots at local stores (usually) because thats something that i would like to buy in person. but being the broke college kid that i am, i often by my gear from sierra. im sorry but when sierra has their stuff 50-70% off i cant say no. i have gotten some really smokin deals from sierra.


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## zakk (Apr 21, 2008)

mjd said:


> yea that's what i mean. you're a fucking poser.


so paying more for goods makes you core? please. 

If I need a part, some wax, something like that, I'll go to my local shop. But resorting to name calling because someone is price sensitive is jackassery at its finest.


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## BurtonAvenger (Aug 14, 2007)

There's some really mindless sheeple in here. Have fun supporting the decline of the local snowboard shop and guess what when Sierra flips to nothing but store brand you're stuck with riding their shit. God I hate this country.


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## Random Hero (Sep 30, 2008)

03CR125 said:


> I saved $210 when I baught my Burton Joystick and Mission bindings there. The local shops will have to compete to get my business because I dont like throwing away my money.


Wow, you are such a tool. You talk about buying online because you don't want to throw away money, yet you have a thread that asks if the board you bought is even any good. What is the point of buying something on discount if you don't even know if you're going to like it? 

There is more to buying from a local store than just cheaper prices, but by judging by your posts you wouldn't have a fucking clue about that.


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## djsaad1 (Nov 7, 2008)

Not sure how my local store stays in business, considering I live in central Texas. But somehow they are able to match internet prices, even Sierras sales. I bought a 2010 k2 turbo dream a couple weeks ago for $380 that was much cheaper than anywhere online.


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## boardaddict (Mar 4, 2009)

mjd said:


> yea that's what i mean. you're a fucking poser.


I'm pretty burnt out from pharmacology and movement analysis exams today so I'll try and make this comprehensible. Here goes...

So people who shop at sierra our posers who don't support the snowboarding community? What are your thoughts then about locals? Who really puts more money into snowboarding and the resorts? Certainly not locals. I don't know many locals who pay $50 for a day pass. Fuck them for buying season passes right. Just think how much more money their local hills would have if all the locals bought day passes. Gotta be core and support the hill right? Do locals buy $15 chicken strip/french fry lunches? No. Do they stay in ridiculously priced hotels? No. Drop the holier than thou douchebag attitude.


P.S.
Maybe that guy buying the board for cheap off of sierra is using that money to fund an extra couple of trips to the hill.


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## mickyg (Feb 2, 2010)

Random Hero said:


> Wow, you are such a tool. You talk about buying online because you don't want to throw away money, yet you have a thread that asks if the board you bought is even any good. What is the point of buying something on discount if you don't even know if you're going to like it?
> 
> There is more to buying from a local store than just cheaper prices, but by judging by your posts you wouldn't have a fucking clue about that.


But shops don't let you test ride do they? I'm not sure what the difference is between spending a few days researching and purchasing on the net, and spending a few hours discussing it with a salesman who may (or may not) know what he is talking about.

I respect supporting local shops, and am prepared to pay a bit extra for it, but we are talking 30-50% discounts here. Some people have very tight budgets and that money saved is a big deal!


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## phile00 (Jan 7, 2009)

BurtonAvenger said:


> There's some really mindless sheeple in here. Have fun supporting the decline of the local snowboard shop and guess what when Sierra flips to nothing but store brand you're stuck with riding their shit. God I hate this country.


What about people who don't have local board shops? I go to a shop that's a ways away from where I live called Bikes and Boards. But that's me. I don't expect everyone to do that. And I buy online as well, because some shops really far away don't even carry the stuff I want. Selection is big. I really don't want to spend my money on something that I don't like because it's the only thing "local" to me. The closest "local" shop to me is 40 miles away and it's in a mall. It's called Zumiez  I'd also like to mention some local shops suck. Like the ones that sell snowboards as an ancillary business to their ski shop, and have skiers trying to sell you snowboards. 

The internet is about price competition, and to a large degree that hurts local board shops, as does the oversupply of product by manufacturers. I hesitate to blame consumers myself, because they often gravitate to the perceived most efficient buying solution; fastest, cheapest, biggest selection, and closest in proximity. 

Local shops have a competitive advantage that they aren't marketing properly. Brick-and-mortar shops are notorious for sucking at marketing. I've seen many businesses go down simply because they didn't market their product/service correctly, even though they had a great product/service. I'm a business owner/entrepreneur myself. I'm actually working on a few ideas that can help all local board shops compete with the internet. I have to do a lot more analysis to see if it's even viable. If I move forward with it, it'll be something to look for


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## Jim (Jan 27, 2010)

Wow, this thread is great...

As a couple posters have pointed out, it is capitalism. I don't see how shopping online or at least understanding why someone might shop online makes someone a poser, a tool, or mindless... Competition is an important part of capitalism, and it is good for the consumer. Online competition isn't limited only to snowboarding, all local product sales of anything have to compete with online. Have you all-mighty name callers never shopped online? Never used ebay? Craigslist? You can buy everything online, snowboards, furniture, eyewear, motorcycles.... It's pretty easy to figure how they can offer low prices, lower overhead, and a larger market. The local store can adapt to remain competitive. Competition is good. Monopolies are bad. If you want your only choice in your market to be the one local shop in your area, then they would essentially have a monopoly in that market. Sure, this is great, weed out the posers and spend all your money.

Probably should also boycott any brand that's not manufactured in the USA while you're at it too right? Trade is probably just as bad as competition if you don't want to be a poser...


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## Mysticfalcon (Nov 27, 2007)

I try to support my local shop. When the owner is there I will usually do business with him. The other 90% of the time when there is a punk kid who tried to tell me that I was stupid for wanting a Fish for powder days and then trying to sell me a Burton Twin because of the fact that it changes color when it gets cold. What exactly does that have to do with float in powder? They still get some of my business but mostly just for stuff like boots where I need to try them on.


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## maf05r6 (Mar 3, 2008)

I love supporting my local shop but the prices just don't compare to what I can get online. Lower price can lead to more volume of sales which balances everything out in the long run.


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## Leo (Nov 24, 2009)

So what happens to a local shop that makes it big? Do they become posers just for becoming successful? Take the company I work for as an example. Started out as a humble Play it Again sports. The Owner did great, but had bigger aspirations. He completely dropped the used sporting goods business and replaced it with a brand spanking new Ski/Snowboard shop. Bam. Blew up. Bought one of the most popular shops in town, Don Thomas Sport Haus in Michigan. He now owns 7 shops and deals online. Obviously, he made the local shop thing work. Why? Because he is a smart business man. You should see the office here. We can bring our dogs in and play Wii and Ping Pong on our break. He made it work, so can other shops.

By the way, he quit his career at American Express to chase his passion for skiing/snowboarding. Took a huge risk doing so, but made it work.

I understand that people should support their local shops, but sometimes they do charge too much. I'm not expecting them to compete with places like Sierra, but don't charge a $100 premium. What do you expect customers to do with that? That's just consumerism and that will never change. Now if the difference between buying at a local shop is $20 or even $50, then I'd lean towards the shop. If the difference is in upwards of $100 then I expect nothing less than the customer shopping elsewhere.

Again, a lot of these online retailers started out as local shops. You guys want local shops to be supported, yet when a few make it big, they become the enemy. Think about that for a second.


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## adam2433 (Dec 31, 2009)

mjd said:


> yea that's what i mean. you're a fucking poser.


lol

and you're a socialist apparently.


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## mjd (Mar 13, 2009)

adam2433 said:


> lol
> 
> and you're a socialist apparently.


no, actually the opposite. i support business and the local snowboard shop. why? they give me 10-30% off on boards binders boots. in my little state it's the only decent place to get the best rider owned as well as burton-esque gear- and they don't suck balls like the folks at ski market. more importantly whether your skater or boarder you can just hang around there all day hook up with your friends, set up rail sessions in town or gigs at whatever mountain. the owners rent a bus for trips to various areas that are way more fun than just going alone or with one or two dudes. you get the best tip offs on next years gear. they know the big guys from all the major companies and can hook you up with some cool reps if you're looking to get into that type of thing. anytime you need extra hardware or parts they usually have it lying around somewhere and will give it to you free. there's a hell of a lot more to it than just buying the cheapest shit.


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## BurtonAvenger (Aug 14, 2007)

This thread is full of win. Sadly 90% of you will never see the bigger picture and then when your local scene disappears, maybe then you will. I could write out a long ass response but frankly after going hard for over a week at SIA and On Snow I'm fried and going to go shred the park with friends and shut my brain off. 

Oh and the debate about knowledgeable staff that's a funny one. Do you know how many of those fucking idiots you deal with at Sierra and the like only know what the product catalog teaches them or the rep tells them? Or better still are the ones that gravitate to the mindless dolts on forums whether it's this one or not and blogs that have no comprehension other than cupping the balls? Open your eyes people and wipe the shit from them.

As far as locals supporting the economy of a mountain it actually depends on where you are. Obviously Breckenridge is tourist dependent, but a place like Holiday Valley on the east coast thrives off its locals. It's all relative if you want the glam and glitz of a Interchode or Fail Resorts then yes it is hosing people for a 94 dollar lift ticket if it's a small mom and pop then it's the locals who buy the season pass for 400 bucks that keep it open.


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## Mysticfalcon (Nov 27, 2007)

I will be the first one to admit that the people at most online shops you talk to dont know anything about what they sell but if you cant shop based on customer service then why not shop on price. I will support the local when I can and I regularly support my local hill but Im not about to bay 25% more to buy from the local shop if they arent going to put a little effort into earning my business.


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## david_z (Dec 14, 2009)

phile00 said:


> W
> Local shops have a competitive advantage that they aren't marketing properly. Brick-and-mortar shops are notorious for sucking at marketing. I've seen many businesses go down simply because they didn't market their product/service correctly, even though they had a great product/service. I'm a business owner/entrepreneur myself. I'm actually working on a few ideas that can help all local board shops compete with the internet. I have to do a lot more analysis to see if it's even viable. If I move forward with it, it'll be something to look for


Truth.

The local shop near me has 3 facilities across the state of MI. They also have an online presence, and although it's probably not a strong online presence like Sierra or some of the other e-tailers, they're on the web, probably because they have to be. This helps me because when I'm looking for gear I can always see what they have in stock without wasting a trip. I drove an hour and a half to their Lansing store to buy my boots because they didn't have them in stock near me...

They are heavily invested in the local skate scene as well as wakeboarding, and operate skate clinics and at least one skate park (may be a joint venture). They have competitions all the time in the warmer months, even bringing in some bigger names (I don't follow skateboarding so I can't really speak to this, but I've seen their fliers).

Sierra doesn't own a skate park in your town, but your local shop might. Your mom/dad/wife/husband probably doesn't go to Sierra to buy you new threads for the upcoming season, etc. 

There's a yin/yang to all of this. The local shops have certain niches that they fulfill better than online, and they have certain opportunities and strengths versus online, too. But the online shops _also_ have different strengths and opportunities versus the brick & mortar shops.

I shop largely on price, once I know what I want. My local shop will match most online offers (except I have to pay sales tax)... But 6% I can live with. As others have said, the money I save on gear usually goes directly in to lift tickets or lodging or $15 chicken strips at the lodge.


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## david_z (Dec 14, 2009)

Mysticfalcon said:


> I will be the first one to admit that the people at most online shops you talk to dont know anything about what they sell but if you cant shop based on customer service then why not shop on price. I will support the local when I can and I regularly support my local hill but Im not about to bay 25% more to buy from the local shop if they aren't going to put a little effort into earning my business.


Right on. There's a local running store near me that I used to get all my gear at in High School. Owned & operated by serious runners. They knew _everything_ about running shoes, what you needed, etc. I didn't mind paying a little bit more, because I knew the 17-year old working at Dick's or Sports Authority couldn't hold a candle to the level of knowledge that these guys had. These guys _earned_ my business through superior service & knowledge. Sadly, I can't always say the same for local shops in the snowsports industries.


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## zakk (Apr 21, 2008)

My local shops push such a hard sale that it puts me off. There are two around me that I'd go to and I've had easier times buying cars. They talk shit about brands they don't carry, as if God herself only rides what they sell in the store. 

One shop didn't stock the Ozones, but had the entire rest of the line from Burton. Why? Oh, ozones suck. Capita sucks, Never Summer sucks, etc. that is the honest reason they give for not carrying them. 

Add that to the price, and IMO lack of decent objective info (which I have received in person at the Sierra store) and it keeps me a price whore. 

To each their own. It's your money. Spend it on coke, whores, and viagra for all I care.


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## Veccster (Dec 31, 2007)

I have 2 shops local to me... 

I went to one last week and he said "no one rides a board bigger than 156, so that is the biggest I carry. And the best brand is Technine, so that is all I carry.

I called the other shop and asked about sizing. He said they put the board up the persons nose and that it has nothing to do with weight. This shop is AT the mountain I ride and I asked if they demo boards. He laughed and said they only rent cheap, crappy boards. I just hung up.

I'll be visiting some online retailers now...


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## unsunken (Dec 15, 2009)

I bought my boots and bindings from a "local" retailer at an expo earlier this season. There are a lot of retailers within a 1 hour drive. This one happens to be about an hour away. Unfortunately I don't have a car, so normally getting to and from any of the "local" places is a pain. Even walking the 15 minutes back from the expo with my box of boots and bindings and other things I was carrying was a little more than I could handle. I <3 online shopping.


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## bbissell (Mar 8, 2009)

We have 1 store here with limited selection. I bought alot of stuff when i was outfitting the family. Being in Tucson Az it is hard to get a good selection. Online has it's place but i have zero problem paying more for good customer service. If we had access to shops like the one's we were in in breckenridge i would never buy online. Every shop i went in was killer and they all were super helpful. 

As an example my wife's new ride boots were killing here when we were in breckenridge. We ended up going and getting her fitted and she tried on alot of different boots there. We both ended up with alot of good knowledge on boot fitting and she got new soloman boots. She was a happy camper the next day. The price i paid was worth it for the tme the sales person spent with us making sure it was right! 

When i buy my next set up i will go to shops like that just for the knowledge and service alone.It will cost you less in the long run if you buy it right the first time.


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## arsenic0 (Nov 11, 2008)

Im curious BA...how many boards do you actually PURCHASE when your own money from local shops each year?
Because i know you are thrown a ton of boards to review...your opinion could be a bit skewed from the rest of us that have to part with our hard earned cash to try one board...

Sadly out here there arent a lot of local shops that sell gear at decent prices, the one exception being Daddies Board Shop where i got my SL-R. But they are a good 30-45 mins away with zero traffic...so i have to plan ahead to go there...and even then their manufacturer selection for some things is somewhat limited as they are Skate/Long/Snow boarding...

So im stuck either buying stuff online from places like Sierra/Evo/etc, or local chains like REI/Sports Authority who always have everything at MSRP + some.


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## ThugHunter (Dec 31, 2008)

I bought a pair of Targa bindings for $175 with free shipping from Sierra. Why the hell would I buy them locally for $250 plus tax? "Local shops" don't support me, so why should I worry about me supporting them?

Hey Sierra, I'm a repeat customer and I'm ready for the 50% off sale.


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## david_z (Dec 14, 2009)

if ya wanna blame anyone for the ridonculously high prices of gear, here's a few to get started:

A) patents and other corporate marks which keep the cost of production artificially high and the completely backwards karl-fucking-marx-labor-theory-of-value ideology that permeates corporate america 
B) the ridiculous "agreements" that companies foist on distributors which permit enforce MSRP with the full force of law, and
C) the courts for tolerating such shenanigans over the years, and

I could mention B&U restrictions, licenses and permits required by any number of municipal boards or authorities, etc...


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## ThugHunter (Dec 31, 2008)

Veccster said:


> I called the other shop and asked about sizing. He said they put the board up the persons nose and that it has nothing to do with weight.


Last January when I took my first snowboarding trip ever, I researched prior to going on the trip about the basics of snowboarding. One of the first things I remember reading was that a board should be fitted by weight not by a person's height. When I walked into the rental shop (Christy Sports in Dillon, CO) they asked my experience. I responded that I am an avid wakeboarder, but this is my first time snowboarding. The assistant grabbed a board from the rack, held it in front of me and BAM, my board was set. Never asked my weight, just set it up based on my height. The board was a Burton Cruzer 151. I'm 5'7" 160-165. I simply asked the question, "I thought snowboards were sized by a person's weight". I pretty much got the same response as yours. They also set me up with a forward stance. Now anyone that has ever gone wakeboarding knows that duck is the stance setup for wakeboarding. Being an avid wakeboarder as I already mentioned to him, he never even considered that I would likely ride better with a duck stance on a snowboard too. 

In addition to his lack of knowledge and unhelpful spirit, he had a general I don't give a fuck and I'd rather be out riding type attitude. Burton Avenger did we meet that day?


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## Daddies (Nov 11, 2008)

arsenic0 said:


> Im curious BA...how many boards do you actually PURCHASE when your own money from local shops each year?
> Because i know you are thrown a ton of boards to review...your opinion could be a bit skewed from the rest of us that have to part with our hard earned cash to try one board...
> 
> Sadly out here there arent a lot of local shops that sell gear at decent prices, the one exception being Daddies Board Shop where i got my SL-R. But they are a good 30-45 mins away with zero traffic...so i have to plan ahead to go there...and even then their manufacturer selection for some things is somewhat limited as they are Skate/Long/Snow boarding...
> ...


Thanks for the plug  For you local people in Portland we just introduced Free Same Day Local Delivery (if your order is in before 11am) so it tries to help with that long drive to get what you want. There is a full list of Zip Codes that are covered by this service at the bottom of our Shipping Page.
 We always have Free UPS Ground shipping so I hope that helps too.

We have a bunch of 2010 stuff 20-30% off. You can check the Smokin Deals section for the old stuff but the Snowboarding section has links to the brands that are marked down under each category. Anyways, you can always email me if you have specific questions on anything, price discounts etc.  [email protected]


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## Random Hero (Sep 30, 2008)

mickyg said:


> But shops don't let you test ride do they? I'm not sure what the difference is between spending a few days researching and purchasing on the net, and spending a few hours discussing it with a salesman who may (or may not) know what he is talking about.
> 
> I respect supporting local shops, and am prepared to pay a bit extra for it, but we are talking 30-50% discounts here. Some people have very tight budgets and that money saved is a big deal!


Please try to learn how to read or don't bother responding to my posts. I have nothing against buying online (hell I buy almost half my stuff online) my point is that this idiot is bashing people who buy from a store because they supposedly waste their money. 

Now tell me who's wasting more money, someone who knows what they want and pays a little more for it, or someone who has no clue what they are buying and only purchasing the item because it's on discount?

O and next time, try to keep up.


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## mickyg (Feb 2, 2010)

Random Hero said:


> Please try to learn how to read or don't bother responding to my posts. I have nothing against buying online (hell I buy almost half my stuff online) my point is that this idiot is bashing people who buy from a store because they supposedly waste their money.
> 
> Now tell me who's wasting more money, someone who knows what they want and pays a little more for it, or someone who has no clue what they are buying and only purchasing the item because it's on discount?
> 
> O and next time, try to keep up.


Mate, is it necessary to respond to civil posts in such a manner? I asked a genuine question phrased in a calm and neutral tone. You said-

"There is more to buying from a local store than just cheaper prices, but by judging by your posts you wouldn't have a fucking clue about that."

And I was simply asking what that is. You can't test ride, you _may _be given bad advice, and the products cost more, sometimes significantly. Please tell me the positives from going to a brick and mortar store.

BTW, for the record I'll be buying some gear in a few months and have every intention of going to a store. So I'm not actually arguing with you because I disagree, I'm simply questioning your statements. But by all means, reply to me again in a condescending and rude manner.


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## arsenic0 (Nov 11, 2008)

Daddies said:


> Thanks for the plug  For you local people in Portland we just introduced Free Same Day Local Delivery (if your order is in before 11am) so it tries to help with that long drive to get what you want. There is a full list of Zip Codes that are covered by this service at the bottom of our Shipping Page.
> We always have Free UPS Ground shipping so I hope that helps too.
> 
> We have a bunch of 2010 stuff 20-30% off. You can check the Smokin Deals section for the old stuff but the Snowboarding section has links to the brands that are marked down under each category. Anyways, you can always email me if you have specific questions on anything, price discounts etc.  [email protected]


No problemo.  I do try to support local shops when its reasonable, like ill buy it if its only 15-20 dollars more. I realize its hard for you guys to match prices with some of these online stores as you cant just throw away inventory barely above cost as easily 

Although i gotta say i am a little sad you guys don't do discounted NS boards again after they yelled at you last year 

How far out do you guys deliver? That'd be awesome if you delivered all the way out to Hillsboro, its not a huge commute but its not easy getting out there on a work day before 5..i'd have to leave here at like 3 to avoid traffic lol...

I may make use of such a service next year when i get a Premier F1-R


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## Boardski (Feb 3, 2010)

The most important thing a Local shop has over internet is Customer Service. You can not beat face to face customer service. It's the job of the shop employees to inform customers that you stand behind every product you sell and you will help them with any problems they may have with a product.


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## SnowBrdScotty (Apr 4, 2009)

lucky me there's no mom and pop shop around here or I'd feel guilty. you would too if you used to hang out in one. whether its a skate shop or snowboard its the same...once they get big you ask them for discounts :laugh: now it's time for me to head down to wallmart :thumbsdown:


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## Guest (Feb 4, 2010)

Random Hero said:


> Wow, you are such a tool. You talk about buying online because you don't want to throw away money, yet you have a thread that asks if the board you bought is even any good. What is the point of buying something on discount if you don't even know if you're going to like it?
> 
> There is more to buying from a local store than just cheaper prices, but by judging by your posts you wouldn't have a fucking clue about that.


Well, if I liked the board and kept it, it would save me $210. Your the fucking tool for not seeing that. I had heard it was a good board but I wanted to find out more about it.


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## mjd (Mar 13, 2009)

this was a pretty spontaneous post on my part and not because i have any set idealogy of who should buy what and where. or because i have extensive knowledge with small board shops. i have a great and lasting relationship with one shop where i live. the other two WERE franchised ski/bike/wake/board shops and are having fire sales right now as i write this. good riddens to them, i agree with others here that a lot of these places are run more by "businessmpeople" than people who actually ride for the love. also, i didn't accuse anyone (except that douchebag who said he wished all private snowboard shops would vanish from the earth) of being anything. i wanted to convey that it's a fucking shit spattering deal for shops owned by people who skate and ride their entire lives and give everything they have to the sports and take a chance, open a business for the people who love boarding like they do and offer quality gear with awesome service and a place to hook up with people who are into the same thing only to get undercut time and again by these fucking monster wholesale outlets. is it a good thing you get your stuff cheap? of course it is and that's fine with me. but i think the end affect of luring people into 50%-70% off of stuff is that a lot of folks are just going buy it cause it's cheap without even knowing what the hell they're buying it for. but that's not for me to judge and anyone who wants to buy the next curly cambered mcpop-o-matic sonic stroke board for half off should do exactly that. i'm just saying there's nothing better for snowboarding than GOOD local core shops that bring boarders together and in turn get the business they need to keep going.


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## Flick Montana (Jul 9, 2007)

No clue what that wall of text says.

By the way, I'd like to introduce you guys to Capitalism. Big Business always wins. Is it unfair that massive companies can churn out a huge surplus of boards and still make money selling them to bargain sites? Yes. Should I give up snowboarding because I can't afford paying 30-50% more buying at a local shop? Sorry, but I won't.

The best thing I have found is to buy at the yearly expo. I can get stuff at clearance prices and, when you factor in S&H, it costs about as much as buying at a cheapo, faceless online company's site.


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## BurtonAvenger (Aug 14, 2007)

arsenic0 said:


> Im curious BA...how many boards do you actually PURCHASE when your own money from local shops each year?
> Because i know you are thrown a ton of boards to review...your opinion could be a bit skewed from the rest of us that have to part with our hard earned cash to try one board...
> 
> Sadly out here there arent a lot of local shops that sell gear at decent prices, the one exception being Daddies Board Shop where i got my SL-R. But they are a good 30-45 mins away with zero traffic...so i have to plan ahead to go there...and even then their manufacturer selection for some things is somewhat limited as they are Skate/Long/Snow boarding...
> ...


I've always bought my decks from local shops probably always will none of this patio store bull shit with retarded troglodyte staff. My view isn't as skewed as you might think. I don't get as much free stuff as other people with blogs or as much as people might think. Times are tough and evidently I'm not writing enough positive gear reviews to warrant being given 20 decks that I'd ride 1 day then blog about how cool I am for getting. The vast majority of decks that I get to ride are just at on snow demo's or knowing a rep that can dump a deck off for a day or two. 

I understand the value of a buck but I also understand the value of dealing with people locally. If more people would shop locally whether it's produce or snowboards the world would be in a better state. Too many people spreading it too far.


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## Random Hero (Sep 30, 2008)

03CR125 said:


> Well, if I liked the board and kept it, it would save me $210. Your the fucking tool for not seeing that. I had heard it was a good board but I wanted to find out more about it.


I'll bet you end up going three times and quit snowboarding all together. I'll be waiting for that board to be posted in the swap shop on this forum in a few more months.

If you can't see why you being smug about buying from stores because they are to expensive when you have no fucking clue about the product that you are buying well............ There's no helping you really.


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## Guest (Feb 4, 2010)

Capatalism vs. Socialism as some see it. Free choice of supporting your fellow man or giving your hard earned buck to sponsor faceless corporations, as other see it. Others just see it as a penny saved is a penny earned (especially regarding saving money for wife/kids). 

Each has a noble cause.


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## Boardski (Feb 3, 2010)

Discounted boards on the internet are always last years boards. If you want what's new then go to a shop.


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## adam2433 (Dec 31, 2009)

mjd said:


> this was a pretty spontaneous post on my part and not because i have any set idealogy of who should buy what and where. or because i have extensive knowledge with small board shops. i have a great and lasting relationship with one shop where i live. the other two WERE franchised ski/bike/wake/board shops and are having fire sales right now as i write this. good riddens to them, i agree with others here that a lot of these places are run more by "businessmpeople" than people who actually ride for the love. also, i didn't accuse anyone (except that douchebag who said he wished all private snowboard shops would vanish from the earth) of being anything. i wanted to convey that it's a fucking shit spattering deal for shops owned by people who skate and ride their entire lives and give everything they have to the sports and take a chance, open a business for the people who love boarding like they do and offer quality gear with awesome service and a place to hook up with people who are into the same thing only to get undercut time and again by these fucking monster wholesale outlets. is it a good thing you get your stuff cheap? of course it is and that's fine with me. but i think the end affect of luring people into 50%-70% off of stuff is that a lot of folks are just going buy it cause it's cheap without even knowing what the hell they're buying it for. but that's not for me to judge and anyone who wants to buy the next curly cambered mcpop-o-matic sonic stroke board for half off should do exactly that. i'm just saying there's nothing better for snowboarding than GOOD local core shops that bring boarders together and in turn get the business they need to keep going.


the way you talk and your name calling only makes you look immature, unintelligent and inexperienced in the world of economics. to each there own but yours appears to be a less than educated opinion and that is only fueled by emotion. if you are ever able to step back and look at the big picture you will understand that competition, regardless of how it is derived, is essential for a sound, growing economy. some business will fail that is unfortunate but essential for our way of life.


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## Guest (Feb 4, 2010)

well guys, its no small wonder why we australians will go to places like backcountry.com and sierra.com- first of all, i got my neversummer from backcountry. WIN!!!

second- perfect example of how some shops here have no fucking clue.

i went with my kid sis to a ski/board shop to try on ski boots for our trip to japan in less than a week. i had my little contour hd minicam. i asked if i could film. enter the madness.

the guy asks why i want to film. i tell him that i've been filming my kid sis trying on all the boots she has so far, just for reference, so we cover all angles from a try-different-boots-on point of view.

little prick then says he does mind, because i just gave away that we'll be looking at other boots at other places as well. 

he then goes on to say that he wont even let my sister try on multiple boots because he has a "boot fit guarantee", without even asking if my sister skied before- she started when she was 3 yrs old, and she's 17. btw, he straight away picked the lowest price point boot.

fucker looks stupid as i dismiss his boot fit guarantee with "yeah mate, you put a hair dryer into a boot for 5 mins then get the customer to walk around for ten mins". 

then, the little fucker has the audacity to turn around and say "well you've alluded to having been to other shops before and we want a guarantee that you will buy the boot in exchange for our perfect fit guarantee".

lol!!!!!

owner comes out and asks what's going on- i dress mr. fuckface down, illustrating his shitty selling techniques and highlighting the fact that yes, we know what we're doing re: skiing, and why the fuck would we be buying ski boots in the australian summer when the temperature is 110 degrees farenheidt outside? uh, because we might be serious buyers who are going overseas soon? 

owner tries to apologise whilst guy sits in background trying to look smug. i then highlight the fact that in australia, where prices for ski gear for our shitty 2 month seasons are exhorbitant, we were more than ready to shell out $850aud for a fucking pair of girls ski boots, but the little fucker felt fit to refuse a simple in-store fitting of more than one boot.

i wasnt met with any sarcasm or cynicism- it probably helped that i had just bought a sweet wheel brace/ lug bolt changer from across the road and was holding that 1 ft piece of steel in my hand, but on an end note i simply told the owner that if it's going to be amateur hr when people walk in the shop and are ready to drop a thousand dollars on just boots and a pair of goggles, then it's no wonder he's so desperate that he's charging $599 for a simple fucking 4square/ blend 15k jacket that can be had anywhere else in my city for atleast 30% off retail. 

so yeah. i hope you enjoyed my rant. now situations with inexperienced and shortsighted shop bitches like THAT is precisely why where i can, i will buy from sierra or backcountry every time. 

cheers, 

scott

p.s. have any of you had an experience like this with a local shop, that only took 10 minutes to transpire? it was un-frigging-believable. i was in tears with laughter afterwards- i've bought from shops in utah, b.c., colorado, australia, new zealand, japan.... never have i encountered a situation like this. deffo an experience to remember, haha


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## konaman (Jan 2, 2010)

Supporting local snow shops in Australia isn't very practical, particularly for anyone who isn't loaded. Prices are simply obscene in most places, for a board that might retail for 500 USD, you would be hard pressed to find it under 1000 AUD in a shop. When you combine that with the potential clearance savings on a place like sierra, you might get a board for 300-400 that goes for 1300-1400 in a store here. 

Not to mention a lot of the shops are staffed with total arseholes (these generally aren't owned by the "little guy" who loves the sport). Nothings more frustrating than walking into a shop and the first question you are asked is are you planning on buying said item today.

Interesting that so many people hold almost hostile opinions towards these larger sites, i bet a lot of these same people fail to apply this anti-big business approach to other parts of their life that aren't loved quite as much as snowboarding. Nothing wrong with supporting the local business, but views bordering on hostile towards large wholesale outlets and people who utilise them are fairly silly in a capitalist economy.


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## Guest (Feb 4, 2010)

konaman said:


> Supporting local snow shops in Australia isn't very practical, particularly for anyone who isn't loaded. Prices are simply obscene in most places, for a board that might retail for 500 USD, you would be hard pressed to find it under 1000 AUD in a shop.
> 
> Not to mention a lot of the shops are staffed with total arseholes (these generally aren't owned by the "little guy" who loves the sport). Nothings more frustrating than walking into a shop and the first question you are asked is are you planning on buying said item today.
> 
> Interesting that so many people hold almost hostile opinions towards these larger sites, i bet a lot of these same people fail to apply this anti-big business approach to other parts of their life


kona, i cannot agree more. the sad thing is, i'm a romantic- where the opportunity arises, even if it means that it costs 200aud more, i will go and buy my binders/ jacket etc at a local store [ignore my recent purchase of ns evo-r. its a spiritual return to the state in which i learned snowboarding, plus i need a sturdy board due to my weight].

just touching on your allusion to usd vs aust- lol. one guy tried to sell me a gnu carbon credit here. i believe they are a lower price-point board with carbon inserts to make up for the material construction deficiencies.... it's on sale here for $700. you're empathic... the prices here= rape.

it's funny. i am a VolksWagen fan boy... once upon a time i was told by essendon VW not to take cars for a drive unless im ready to buy that car that day, because it was a waste of peoples' time. perhaps that is why essendon VW melbourne staff are widely reputed as, and i quote, "a pack of cunts".

boots locally, yes- the reasons are obvious. everything else? big inet retailers. im australian. we get no love for shelling out $1100 for a skate banana here.


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## Kanilas (Mar 28, 2009)

I'm agreeing with bbissel on this one. The only shop in Tucson is a Peter Glenn 45 minutes away from me. High prices, and while half the staff know what they're talking about, the other half has no clue.

Plus, what shred scene is there to support here? Should I go buy their $20 brick (not even a brick, it was about 2in x 1in x 1in) of OBJ wax, or order from BlueBird? 

If it bothers you that much, into Sierra's/BackCountry's retail store, call them nameless, faceless pricks, and leave yelling, just like you're doing here. Meanwhile, I'll be saving my tip money and hoping I can afford an NS Legacy next year after paying tuition and everything else.


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## arsenic0 (Nov 11, 2008)

Kanilas said:


> If it bothers you that much, into Sierra's/BackCountry's retail store, call them nameless, faceless pricks, and leave yelling, just like you're doing here.


I wouldnt put it past BA, in fact i'd venture he already has.:laugh:


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## mjd (Mar 13, 2009)

adam2433 said:


> the way you talk and your name calling only makes you look immature, unintelligent and inexperienced in the world of economics. to each there own but yours appears to be a less than educated opinion and that is only fueled by emotion. if you are ever able to step back and look at the big picture you will understand that competition, regardless of how it is derived, is essential for a sound, growing economy. some business will fail that is unfortunate but essential for our way of life.


show me where i said any of that in my last post. you're a fucking joke.


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## Jim (Jan 27, 2010)

mjd said:


> show me where i said any of that in my last post. you're a fucking joke.


Chill out


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## Ianxcom (Jan 17, 2010)

For some reason they took off the burton products from the sale


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## baldylox (Dec 27, 2007)

The only constant in any industry is that they are always changing. Spending your time and energy complaining about that instead of innovating is not a recipe for success.


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## baldylox (Dec 27, 2007)

BurtonAvenger said:


> Oh and the debate about knowledgeable staff that's a funny one. Do you know how many of those fucking idiots you deal with at Sierra and the like only know what the product catalog teaches them or the rep tells them? Or better still are the ones that gravitate to the mindless dolts on forums whether it's this one or not and blogs that have no comprehension other than cupping the balls? Open your eyes people and wipe the shit from them.


You're saying that since neither shop has support worth a damn, a person should just support the local shop? If you can't learn shit from reps at either shop, than why would anyone want to pay a premium when they are doing the research themselves? The best research tools being available online, it's awfully convenient to purchase from a website. Your 'support the local economy idealism' is just unrealistic when nothing of value is being provided for that premium.


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## david_z (Dec 14, 2009)

should be riding NS instead of Burton. Support the local CO economy and all


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## hanzosteel (Oct 7, 2009)

just curious - the most common response on the boot forum is something to the effect of, "go to a store and try them on before you buy" - which is sound advice given that fit and comfort are most important factors in boot selection. with the death of your local shop, where would you go to get properly fitted for boots?


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## Leo (Nov 24, 2009)

Ianxcom said:


> For some reason they took off the burton products from the sale


We are given a specific date to mark down current year products. Sierra under-handed all the retailers by putting that insane sale up this early. Obviously, Burton wasn't too happy about that. Our company is mad at Sierra too. They just broke the rules to strong arm the rest of us.


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## david_z (Dec 14, 2009)

Leo, Modern Skate in Royal Oak/Lansing/GR dropped everything on their website 20% a few days ago. They said that it was a mistake and for technical reasons they couldn't "undo" the sale for about 48 hours. I find that kinda hard to believe in this day and age. 

IMO, the whole idea of manufacturers dictating the terms of sale and msrp etc, is bogus. I guess if they're willing to buy the unsold product back at the end of the year (and do what? Destroy it??) i might tolerate it, but I feel like this is really an abomination to which the courts have been accomplice over the last century or so.


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## Leo (Nov 24, 2009)

david_z said:


> Leo, Modern Skate in Royal Oak/Lansing/GR dropped everything on their website 20% a few days ago. They said that it was a mistake and for technical reasons they couldn't "undo" the sale for about 48 hours. I find that kinda hard to believe in this day and age.
> 
> IMO, the whole idea of manufacturers dictating the terms of sale and msrp etc, is bogus. I guess if they're willing to buy the unsold product back at the end of the year (and do what? Destroy it??) i might tolerate it, but I feel like this is really an abomination to which the courts have been accomplice over the last century or so.


They aren't really dictating the sale, just when we are able to start them. I think this is mainly because the manufacturers themselves sell directly through their own sites.


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## redlude97 (Jan 9, 2008)

cifex said:


> You're saying that since neither shop has support worth a damn, a person should just support the local shop? If you can't learn shit from reps at either shop, than why would anyone want to pay a premium when they are doing the research themselves? The best research tools being available online, it's awfully convenient to purchase from a website. Your 'support the local economy idealism' is just unrealistic when nothing of value is being provided for that premium.


Shops can't afford to have knowledgeable staff if they are getting shafted by online shops, which then in turn leads to people shopping online instead, which then just exacerbates the problem even further.


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## redlude97 (Jan 9, 2008)

david_z said:


> IMO, the whole idea of manufacturers dictating the terms of sale and msrp etc, is bogus. I guess if they're willing to buy the unsold product back at the end of the year (and do what? Destroy it??) i might tolerate it, but I feel like this is really an abomination to which the courts have been accomplice over the last century or so.


Every manufacturer does this to some extent, otherwise, their brand suffers. If a product is always being sold under MSRP, then the true market value drops, and resalers will begin to demand a lower wholesale price to keep margins reasonable.


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## Leo (Nov 24, 2009)

redlude97 said:


> Shops can't afford to have knowledgeable staff if they are getting shafted by online shops, which then in turn leads to people shopping online instead, which then just exacerbates the problem even further.


Not sure how that works. It's not hard to find employees that snowboard in a town with so much as a local hill. There is no premium for hiring someone with snowboarding knowledge unless it is in the purchasing side of the company.

And no one has yet to address my point. What do you say about online shops that started out as local shops? Not every single online retailer went straight to the internet market. Some of them got their start from being a successful local shop. Like the company I work for. We still operate several shops in Michigan.

Does a local shop at some point become the enemy when they do well?

Also, not all shops are altruistic. Take MooseJaw as an example for Michigan. They used to do well as a shop. They recently lost their contract with Burton due to the same thing that Sierra did this year by dropping their prices earlier than all the other stores here. Now they don't deal with snowboarding equipment at all.

I understand places like Sports Authority not having a knowledgeable staff, but if your store specializes in a particular sport, you should at least have well trained employees. Go into any one of our stores or even the main office and you'll see that 90% of us snowboard or ski. Did the owner actively search out snowboarders and skiers? No. We just naturally flocked to this job because it has something to do with our interests.


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## redlude97 (Jan 9, 2008)

Leo said:


> Not sure how that works. It's not hard to find employees that snowboard in a town with so much as a local hill. There is no premium for hiring someone with snowboarding knowledge unless it is in the purchasing side of the company.
> 
> And no one has yet to address my point. What do you say about online shops that started out as local shops? Not every single online retailer went straight to the internet market. Some of them got their start from being a successful local shop. Like the company I work for. We still operate several shops in Michigan.
> 
> ...


Then why are there all these complaints about incompetent workers? If snowboarders just flock to these jobs how come they don't know anything? At least here in seattle, shop staff make more than minimum wage, but as shops suffer more in this economy, they either have to start paying workers less, or cut staff, both of which lead to poorer service.


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## david_z (Dec 14, 2009)

Leo said:


> They aren't really dictating the sale, just when we are able to start them.


Same sandwich.



Leo said:


> I think this is mainly because the manufacturers themselves sell directly through their own sites.


They should have no problem competing; they have a warehouse but they don't have overhead associated with a storefront (generally). You'd think it would be cheaper to buy from the manufacturer.

if they can't compete that way, then maybe they need to stick to what they do best, which is _manufacturing_ equipment. Let the retailers do the selling and assume that inventory risk.


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## Leo (Nov 24, 2009)

redlude97 said:


> Then why are there all these complaints about incompetent workers? If snowboarders just flock to these jobs how come they don't know anything? At least here in seattle, shop staff make more than minimum wage, but as shops suffer more in this economy, they either have to start paying workers less, or cut staff, both of which lead to poorer service.


You misunderstand my point. I am not saying every shop should have knowledgeable staff because snowboarders flock to their stores for jobs. I am simply saying there is no shortage of knowledgeable people. If a shop really wants to have a knowledgeable staff, they can actively seek them out as a job qualification instead of hiring the first teenager they see. If Summit Sports has all these snowboarders working for them at minimum wage without even trying, then why can't the other shops?

What I am trying to say is that sometimes the shops are plain responsible for how their business is run. You can't blame the internet businesses for all of their faults.

My parents opened a restaurant in a very small town. The business failed. Was it because of the other well-established behind us? No. It was simply because they failed to offer something that restaurant didn't in terms of equal or better quality. No other excuses.

Lastly, you really don't have to even be a snowboarder to be knowledgeable. You can take care of that through proper product training. It isn't possible for every snowboarder to try every single gear out there. Yet they are still able to give solid advice about equipment that they have researched.

Look at SnowWolf here. He openly admits he is a noob in the park. But he knows the basics and all other aspects of this sport very well so he can give actual, factual advice for park riders that are above his skill level in the park. It's that same concept when it comes to employee training.


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## Leo (Nov 24, 2009)

david_z said:


> Same sandwich.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I agree with that, but unfortunately they are out to meet a profit margin like a lot of companies. It is what it is.

But bullshit or not, it's not fair that Sierra did this. Wal-Mart like tactic right there.


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## david_z (Dec 14, 2009)

redlude97 said:


> Every manufacturer does this to some extent, otherwise, their brand suffers. If a product is always being sold under MSRP, then the true market value drops, and resalers will begin to demand a lower wholesale price to keep margins reasonable.


Then "every manufacturer" is an ass.

The "true market value" is only whatever people are willing to pay. There will be some retailers willing to pay the same wholesale price, accept a lower selling price, and earn a smaller profit margin. This is simply not up for debate.

Of course this sort of pressure might prompt some retailers to go out of business or to switch industries (because they're no longer satisfied with the return) but competition like this is a good thing. It directs people's efforts to their most valuable use. Who can do the most, with the least. 

The manufacturers have no reason to drop prices to cater to the businesses who ask for price concessions, because the other guys (satisfied with a 15% margin instead of 25% perhaps) are willing and able to pay the "normal" price.


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## david_z (Dec 14, 2009)

Leo said:


> I agree with that, but unfortunately they are out to meet a profit margin like a lot of companies. It is what it is.


I don't follow. There's a reason you can't walk in to a coca-cola bottling plant and order a case of soda. If they can't meet their profit margin doing what they do best, then they should find another line of business. 



Leo said:


> But bullshit or not, it's not fair that Sierra did this. Wal-Mart like tactic right there.


Not "fair"? I guess in the context of "everyone else has been strongarmed by Burton/Etc. in to adhering to these terms..." then yeah, it's not "fair", but the real unfairness is that _anyone_ is strongarmed in the first place. It's a classic prisoner's dilemma: It's in any individual companies best (economic) interest to adhere to the terms, but collectively they'd be better off if all the retailers were to say "F*** you! We're selling for whatever price we thing is sufficient to cover our costs and earn a reasonable profit" then the restrictions would be a dead letter, instantly.


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## Leo (Nov 24, 2009)

It's kind of pointless to debate about Online vs Local anyway. There's nothing we can do to change technology.

Oh wait, there is... We all have to stop buying online. Realistically? Never going to happen.

About the wholesale thing. If manufacturers do not dictate when we are able to mark down, then they will actually raise our wholesale prices. This is because of that profit margin I spoke of. They still do. Wholesale prices fluctuate depending on that profit margin they are aiming for.

The cheaper the wholesale price for retailers, the cheaper they can mark items down. So in actuality, this manufacturer requirement let's us sell you the products cheaper at that given date.

Still evil since obviously some brands want ridiculous profits. Whatever. That's life.


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## Leo (Nov 24, 2009)

david_z said:


> I don't follow. There's a reason you can't walk in to a coca-cola bottling plant and order a case of soda. If they can't meet their profit margin doing what they do best, then they should find another line of business.


I mean they want to make more money than they really need. For example, they want 100 million instead of 50 million which would take care of all costs and compensate greedy executives enough.



david_z said:


> Not "fair"? I guess in the context of "everyone else has been strongarmed by Burton/Etc. in to adhering to these terms..." then yeah, it's not "fair", but the real unfairness is that _anyone_ is strongarmed in the first place. It's a classic prisoner's dilemma: It's in any individual companies best (economic) interest to adhere to the terms, but collectively they'd be better off if all the retailers were to say "F*** you! We're selling for whatever price we thing is sufficient to cover our costs and earn a reasonable profit" then the restrictions would be a dead letter, instantly.


Not fair meaning that other retailers that are following these manufacturers rules are taking a hit because one retailer decided to rebel. As cool as it would be for all the retailers to boycott the likes of Burton, it is not feasible. Snowboards.net tried to gain the Burton license for 5 years. We recently acquired that license. Since we are a brand new licensee, they will pull the plug on us the first mistake they see with swiftness.

Yes it's evil of these brands to do that, but there isn't anything we can do. Boycotting means going out of business.


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## david_z (Dec 14, 2009)

Leo said:


> It's kind of pointless to debate about Online vs Local anyway. There's nothing we can do to change technology.


Right, as I've said before, there's a place for both, and I don't see that changing any time soon.


Leo said:


> About the wholesale thing. If manufacturers do not dictate when we are able to mark down, then they will actually raise our wholesale prices. This is because of that profit margin I spoke of. They still do. Wholesale prices fluctuate depending on that profit margin they are aiming for.


If it were true that manufacturers could raise their margins by raising their wholesale prices, you've just solved the entire world's economic problems once and for all. Everyone just "raise prices". DOesn't work broseph. As prices rise, people are less and less willing to pay for the product/goods/services/etc. And "people" in this context is not limited to consumers - also retailers who look at their costs skyrocketing and think, "Hey, I _bet_ it's going to be harder for me to move product off the shelves and still cover my costs..." and so they stop buying (or they should stop buying) when prices go too high. Now the manufacturer is stuck with a bunch of gear because they overproduced. This shit happens when an economic model is completely backwards.


Leo said:


> The cheaper the wholesale price for retailers, the cheaper they can mark items down. So in actuality, this manufacturer requirement let's us sell you the products cheaper at that given date.


There's more than one reason to mark down a product. Sometimes you mark it down because it's _not profitable at all_ and you just need to get it off your shelves. It's not uncommon to take a loss on merch like that. If you bought a store-room full of size 15 Burton Ions, you'd find yourself in quick financial distress, because there simply aren't many people who need a size 15 burton Ion. In that case, you'd sell it just to cut your losses.



Leo said:


> Still evil since obviously some brands want ridiculous profits. Whatever. That's life.


Yeah, they're pretty much all evil, agreed.


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## david_z (Dec 14, 2009)

Leo said:


> Not fair meaning that other retailers that are following these manufacturers rules are taking a hit because one retailer decided to rebel. As cool as it would be for all the retailers to boycott the likes of Burton, it is not feasible. Snowboards.net tried to gain the Burton license for 5 years. We recently acquired that license. Since we are a brand new licensee, they will pull the plug on us the first mistake they see with swiftness.


Right, what I'm saying is that the only thing that's "not fair" in these circumstances is the rules being set by manufacturer, etc. Get rid of that bullshit and everything else falls in to place.



Leo said:


> Yes it's evil of these brands to do that, but there isn't anything we can do. Boycotting means going out of business.


Yep. Classic prisoner's dilemma.


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## Leo (Nov 24, 2009)

david_z said:


> Yeah, they're pretty much all evil, agreed.


But damn, their products are hella fun to ride! :laugh:


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## david_z (Dec 14, 2009)

Leo said:


> But damn, their products are hella fun to ride! :laugh:


No doubt.

I bought my Ride but not through a retailer or anything. Same 1st quality board, but 35% off retail. Near as I can tell, that extra $150 at retail gets you a warranty. And since most of these products from any reputable company have an extraordinarily small failure/defect rate, 35% is an unfairly steep premium to pay for a warranty that you'll likely never need.


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## Leo (Nov 24, 2009)

Can't wait to ride with you and have a chat over a pitcher David. We are going to have some great conversations about shit that is actually relevant.


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## david_z (Dec 14, 2009)

my friend Brad is the same way.

Our wives/GF's get annoyed.


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## Leo (Nov 24, 2009)

david_z said:


> my friend Brad is the same way.
> 
> Our wives/GF's get annoyed.


Lol you should see my fiancee when I get into Astronomy. :laugh:


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## redlude97 (Jan 9, 2008)

Leo said:


> You misunderstand my point. I am not saying every shop should have knowledgeable staff because snowboarders flock to their stores for jobs. I am simply saying there is no shortage of knowledgeable people. If a shop really wants to have a knowledgeable staff, they can actively seek them out as a job qualification instead of hiring the first teenager they see. If Summit Sports has all these snowboarders working for them at minimum wage without even trying, then why can't the other shops?
> 
> What I am trying to say is that sometimes the shops are plain responsible for how their business is run. You can't blame the internet businesses for all of their faults.
> 
> ...


You seem to have a very optimistic view of minimum wage employees. From my experience, the lower the wages for any job, the less enthusiastic an employee is with it, and less likely to try and apply themselves and take initiative, otherwise, they would be working some other higher paying job.


david_z said:


> Then "every manufacturer" is an ass.
> 
> The "true market value" is only whatever people are willing to pay. There will be some retailers willing to pay the same wholesale price, accept a lower selling price, and earn a smaller profit margin. This is simply not up for debate.
> 
> ...


Based on your logic Sierra should have been able to sell all their stuff at 30% off from the beginning of the year, because they would have been satisfied with a lower margin. Do you think they would have been the only shop to do this(online or otherwise)? No, to survive the other shops would have to lower their prices as well to compete, otherwise they would be left with a bunch of product. This drops margins across the board, and eventually reaches an unsustainable level for all shops, which then turn around and as a whole ask the manufacturer for a lower wholesale price. This drops their margins, which is the whole point of MSRP in the first place. This is the way it works in almost every industry. You have to look at the macroscopic economics at work.


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## david_z (Dec 14, 2009)

redlude97 said:


> Based on your logic Sierra should have been able to sell all their stuff at 30% off from the beginning of the year, because they would have been satisfied with a lower margin. Do you think they would have been the only shop to do this(online or otherwise)? No, to survive the other shops would have to lower their prices as well to compete, otherwise they would be left with a bunch of product. This drops margins across the board, and eventually reaches an unsustainable level for all shops, which then turn around and as a whole ask the manufacturer for a lower wholesale price. This drops their margins, which is the whole point of MSRP in the first place. This is the way it works in almost every industry. You have to look at the macroscopic economics at work.


Nope that's not how it works. You're taking a very static approach to a very dynamic problem. Everyone wants to sell as much as they can and at as high a price as the market will bear. Conversely all customers want to buy as much as cheaply as possible. This is a dynamic process and one of discivery as many firecasts prove mistaken (for good or bad!)


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## redlude97 (Jan 9, 2008)

david_z said:


> Nope that's not how it works. You're taking a very static approach to a very dynamic problem. Everyone wants to sell as much as they can and at as high a price as the market will bear. Conversely all customers want to buy as much as cheaply as possible. This is a dynamic process and one of discivery as many firecasts prove mistaken (for good or bad!)


except that isn't how it works, that is a very simplistic view of the economy in which you assume pricing is easily changed and set. Not how the majority of the industries work.


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## Guest (Feb 6, 2010)

Random Hero said:


> I'll bet you end up going three times and quit snowboarding all together. I'll be waiting for that board to be posted in the swap shop on this forum in a few more months.
> 
> If you can't see why you being smug about buying from stores because they are to expensive when you have no fucking clue about the product that you are buying well............ There's no helping you really.


Fuck this site. I try to contribute but this is the shit I get. Fuck you all


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## tschamp20 (Nov 2, 2009)

03CR125 said:


> Fuck this site. I try to contribute but this is the shit I get. Fuck you all


 you've just became the same guy you are arguing with.which is probably what he/she wanted. you seem to be reasonable w/ what you said earlier.dont take others comments personally.
to the topic,it is amazing the sales sierra has.i've bought from them before.i think once they buy from burton or whoever,they should be allowed to do what they want.burton got there money.
locally we have ski world.there prices are outrageous compared to online and i realize its because of supply and demand. i feel bad when i try stuff on there and buy online but i've got a wife and kid and mortgage and cant afford them.i bought my helmet and wax from 'em. try to get what i can from them but its just not realistic.


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## arsenic0 (Nov 11, 2008)

Its a similar issue with all products..hell even when im buying RC Parts for my Planes i will very very rarely buy from a local hobby shop.

Why? Because they want 90 dollars for a motor or battery, when i can order a more powerful no name one from China or some other online only shop for $10 lol...


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## mickyg (Feb 2, 2010)

03CR125 said:


> Fuck this site. I try to contribute but this is the shit I get. Fuck you all


Welcome to online forums... That guy is just an ass, ignore him and listen to the meaningful input from the hundreds of other guys and gals!


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## david_z (Dec 14, 2009)

redlude97 said:


> except that isn't how it works, that is a very simplistic view of the economy in which you assume pricing is easily changed and set. Not how the majority of the industries work.


Thank you for making my point. The problem is _how industries currently work_ which _isn't_ even remotely close to a free market.

Don't bring a knife to a gunfight.


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## Jim (Jan 27, 2010)

david_z said:


> Thank you for making my point. The problem is _how industries currently work_ which _isn't_ even remotely close to a free market.
> 
> Don't bring a knife to a gunfight.


What about a spork?


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## Deviant (Dec 22, 2009)

If our local shop has the item in, they will match or beat the online price. Problem is I usually but past season and they don't have many to choose from.


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## mjd (Mar 13, 2009)

the point i tried to make earlier which seems to immediately get lost on this thread is that there are a number of real snowboard/skate shops out there run by actual snowboarders who WILL give you a deal once they see you coming in getting most of your stuff there. NOW, not every town has a core shop like such as this. you may have to travel some distance or just settle for something online. like i said a hundred fucking times before- there is nothing wrong with finding a deal online- that is awesome. the thing that i don't like is seeing the one cool shop in my area struggling to make it in an environment where there's no realistic way to compete with huge cyber outlets selling gear at cut throat prices. and the reason i place value on these very specific and limited number of shops is because they are the center of snowboarding community in any given area. maybe YOU don't have a place like that near YOU. BUT there are many places that do have a core shop. NOT talking about the thieving shop behind the chairlift. or the franchise shop in the mall. or any other multi-sport store anywhere. i'm talking very specifically about the shops run hard core boarders for boarders. they are like the old neighborhood pub where everyone goes settle business find out the latest news arrange meetings and what not. to me THAT is what keeps snowboarding fresh. it's about having a place to hang out and meet up with your friends set up trips, trade gear, check out the new lines, etc etc. i place a high value on that because that's where the core of the snowboard scene starts. if that type of place disapears that would be a shame.


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## Bones (Feb 24, 2008)

mjd said:


> the thing that i don't like is seeing the one cool shop in my area struggling to make it in an environment where there's no realistic way to compete with huge cyber outlets selling gear at cut throat prices. and the reason i place value on these very specific and limited number of shops is because they are the center of snowboarding community in any given area.


I ran a niche business in another industry for 20 years. And while I agree with your premise....hell, it was essentially my business model, it just doesn't ring true on a large enough scale. Boards and bindings are essentially straight resale items. Hard to add value to a board sale and that's the driving economic force behind online stores. Same for independent neighborhood computer stores trying to make a buck on laptops.

As an informed consumer, I see no great value in paying 20-50% more at my local shop for straight resale items. Boots, tuning, repairs, warranty returns, heat molding....yes. Boards and bindings.....no. And if that local shop is banking on a significant portion of its revenue coming from markup on resale items, then I'm afraid it's days are numbered. Time to get innovative and find revenue sources that only a bricks and mortar shop can provide.....discount lift tickets to local hills, overnight or pickup/delivery tuning services, bus trips, etc.


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## arsenic0 (Nov 11, 2008)

Bones said:


> I ran a niche business in another industry for 20 years. And while I agree with your premise....hell, it was essentially my business model, it just doesn't ring true on a large enough scale. Boards and bindings are essentially straight resale items. Hard to add value to a board sale and that's the driving economic force behind online stores. Same for independent neighborhood computer stores trying to make a buck on laptops.
> 
> As an informed consumer, I see no great value in paying 20-50% more at my local shop for straight resale items. Boots, tuning, repairs, warranty returns, heat molding....yes. Boards and bindings.....no. And if that local shop is banking on a significant portion of its revenue coming from markup on resale items, then I'm afraid it's days are numbered. Time to get innovative and find revenue sources that only a bricks and mortar shop can provide.....discount lift tickets to local hills, overnight or pickup/delivery tuning services, bus trips, etc.


Another problem is that there are some stores that are so big they have a strong online presence as well as brick and mortar stores..like REI. Love or hate them most of the time they have what you need for any sport...i'd bet that most of their money is made in store not on their website. And atleast out here in Hillsboro they are somewhat helpful, i tried on a crap load of boots at their store before deciding...even though i planned on buying online i just spent the extra 30 dollars and got them there on the spot.


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## redlude97 (Jan 9, 2008)

david_z said:


> Thank you for making my point. The problem is _how industries currently work_ which _isn't_ even remotely close to a free market.
> 
> Don't bring a knife to a gunfight.


There is economics in theory and practical economics. Dynamic pricing doesn't work when you are dealing with products that have to be ordered a season ahead of time at a set price. Your "free market" system would never work. MSRP is a necessary evil of practical economics, it didn't just come about because of "evil corporations"


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## Bones (Feb 24, 2008)

arsenic0 said:


> ...even though i planned on buying online i just spent the extra 30 dollars and got them there on the spot.


Exactly...For $30 extra, I'd buy them there too, saves the shipping and gives me instant gratification. For $60 extra and a "free" heat molding, I'd buy local. Start talking about $100, $150 extra and I can't see that level of added value in a pair of boots. 

All I'm saying is that if your local shop's business plan is based largely on covering its overhead and turning a profit by simply marking-up and reselling on a small scale, it's gonna go under. And that's not unique to the snow sport industry, lots of traditional retail operations are trying to add perceived value: free installation, extended warranties, "free" oil changes, loaner cars, service shuttles, etc. The dry cleaning industry has adapted by closing retail stores and using every corner store as a drop-off/pick up point. Wonder if you could make a profit on board tuning doing the same thing.....in by 4pm back by 7am.

It's all very well and good to support your local store, but you need your local store to adapt as well. My Mom and Pop computer store couldn't or wouldn't adapt and they're gone. Best Buy/Dell took their resale margin away and Nerds Onsite took their service business. They could have beat out Nerds Onsite by offering in-home service to their existing client base but they didn't want to sell me what I really needed: a computer repair that didn't involve me disassembling my office LAN and humping it over to them.


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## mickyg (Feb 2, 2010)

mjd said:


> the point i tried to make earlier which seems to immediately get lost on this thread is that there are a number of real snowboard/skate shops out there run by actual snowboarders who WILL give you a deal once they see you coming in getting most of your stuff there.


Is there some sort of sticky here for shops with good reputations? I would love to be able to look up a city and know which shops I should avoid and which should get my custom.

Specifically, can anyone recommend a good shop in Vancouver for snowboards and skiis?


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## david_z (Dec 14, 2009)

i try to buy off-season, too. The gear is 95 to 99% as good as current year's product, and 50%+ cheaper.


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## david_z (Dec 14, 2009)

redlude97 said:


> There is economics in theory and practical economics. Dynamic pricing doesn't work when you are dealing with products that have to be ordered a season ahead of time at a set price. Your "free market" system would never work. MSRP is a necessary evil of practical economics, it didn't just come about because of "evil corporations"


But when the retailer buys the product from the manufacturer, releiving the manufacturer or inventory risk, why is the retailer not permitted to determine (by whatever means he chooses) how and when and at what price to sell the product?

As long as the "S" in "MSRP" actually stands for "suggested" i have no qualms with it. It's when the "S" is a backdoor for "mandated" which can _only_ ever be enforced by a blood-bought federal superstate. (Oligopoly practices like this don't exist without a hefty amount of government intervention and/or favoritism on behalf of the interested parties.)


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## phile00 (Jan 7, 2009)

david_z said:


> But when the retailer buys the product from the manufacturer, releiving the manufacturer or inventory risk, why is the retailer not permitted to determine (by whatever means he chooses) how and when and at what price to sell the product?
> 
> As long as the "S" in "MSRP" actually stands for "suggested" i have no qualms with it. It's when the "S" is a backdoor for "mandated" which can _only_ ever be enforced by a blood-bought federal superstate. (Oligopoly practices like this don't exist without a hefty amount of government intervention and/or favoritism on behalf of the interested parties.)


Manufacturers have MSRP and MAP (Minimum Advertised Price). They suggest you sell it at a certain price, but require that you cannot sell it for under MAP otherwise they may cut you out of their distribution. There are ways around MAP, but in the end it's the manufacturer discretion wether they will supply to you or not. MAP pricing ensures that markets stay competitive and distribution remains even. When retailers go below map, especially large ones, it puts smaller retailers out of business and makes distribution lopsided. As a manufacturer, you want more customers rather than less for a few reasons. 1) Businesses come and go, and 2) If one business buys up all your product and is your only customer, they begin to control the manufacturer. Walmart does this, and it creates a monopoly on supply and demand. And they get to choose the pricing they want to pay wether or not the manufacturer likes it.

Also, pricing determines exclusivity, and allows the brand to be marketed to the proper demographic. Mercedes for example, doesn't want to sell hordes of cars every year. They are a high-end car company. Never Summer builds quality boards. Even if someone could sell them as price point boards en-masse, maybe NS doesn't want to convey that they make price point boards. They have a level of experience and propriety, and provide a level of quality that they want to be reflected in the public's perception.

Traditionally, manufacturers don't want to be in the retail business. This is a good thing because more people are employed as a result.


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## redlude97 (Jan 9, 2008)

david_z said:


> But when the retailer buys the product from the manufacturer, releiving the manufacturer or inventory risk, why is the retailer not permitted to determine (by whatever means he chooses) how and when and at what price to sell the product?
> 
> As long as the "S" in "MSRP" actually stands for "suggested" i have no qualms with it. It's when the "S" is a backdoor for "mandated" which can _only_ ever be enforced by a blood-bought federal superstate. (Oligopoly practices like this don't exist without a hefty amount of government intervention and/or favoritism on behalf of the interested parties.)


You want a "free market", well in a free market, the manufacturers can choose who they want to sell to who not, correct?


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## david_z (Dec 14, 2009)

redlude97 said:


> You want a "free market", well in a free market, the manufacturers can choose who they want to sell to who not, correct?


Indeed they can. And if this sort of practice would prevail in a freed market, then we can safely conclude that it's probably doing a pretty good job of providing the customers with what they want and prices that they find satisfactory. But anyone who's too heavy-handed in this regard (as a manufacturer) would quickly find himself without a distribution network unless he chose to relax some of those restrictions.

Arguing that practices like these "work" or are "pragmatic" in the current marketplace is one thing; and I'm not debating that it is a matter of empirical fact. Suggesting that practices like these would prevail in a free market (because they "work" or are "practical" in the current market), however, is a non sequitir.


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## Guest (Feb 7, 2010)

I buy from Sierra. Over here in Australia the prices are a lot higher and its not worth buying things like boards and bindings locally.

What possible expertise can I gain when buying a board or bindings locally? None.
I sure as hell won't pay 3 times the amount based on 'principals'.

I do buy boots, wax etc. over here though. Im happy to pay a little bit extra for things like that here.


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## Guest (Feb 7, 2010)

This is my first season thinking about buying gear when its over.

i will probably check out and buy boots locally and if the shop guys really helpful I might buy bindings and even a board there if the prices aren't too extreme, but if I feel like I know what I want to buy and i save decently from sierra I will probably just head there for everything besides boots.


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## mjd (Mar 13, 2009)

david_z said:


> i try to buy off-season, too. The gear is 95 to 99% as good as current year's product, and 50%+ cheaper.


actually a lot of shops start marking down there inventory right around now. i saved $50 on a new pair of 2010 volcom pants today at my local shop. it's not always easy to find core shops but when your in one you can feel the vibe- it's different from the run of the mill shop. and i hate using that word "core" but for lack of a better word...


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## Guest (Feb 7, 2010)

mjd said:


> actually a lot of shops start marking down there inventory right around now. i saved $50 on a new pair of 2010 volcom pants today at my local shop. it's not always easy to find core shops but when your in one you can feel the vibe- it's different from the run of the mill shop. and i hate using that word "core" but for lack of a better word...


The 'core' shops you describe don't exist here in Aus. I know the vibe you talk about and the last time I had that was in a board shop in St. Anton. I guess you get that in a place where rippers from all around the world converge.


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