# Help Needed: Best Angles For Bindings



## Donutz (May 12, 2010)

One of the realities of snowboarding is that it's way easier to get up on your toe edge than your heel edge. For someone who is more duck than you, that's more about setting up the highback angles. With your more forward-facing stance, you should have a somewhat more easy time of it. Still, you should investigate the highback adjustment.

I'm 61, I ride with +15 and -9. But I do trees and some park, and I'm trying to become proficient at switch, so a more duckish stance is preferable. I've also set my highbacks to the same angle as my boot cuffs, which is more than the default that the bindings come with. It allows me to get more heelside edge with the same effort.

I've also found that my riding is asymmetrical in terms of heelside and toeside turns. My toeside turns are long and sweeping, but my heelsides by default are more like a braking maneuver--short, sharp, and moving quickly to go across the fall line. As a result, I tend to wash out on heelside. I'm pretty sure it's psychological--I can see the slope when I go heelside and I unconsciously want to slow down.

I'm making a concerted effort to make sure my turns are symmetrical in both directions, and it is making a difference. Consider the possibility that, despite your more forward stance, you are also treating heelside turns different.


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## Oldman (Mar 7, 2012)

Your "problem" with heel side washout has more to do with your technique than your binding angles.

Heel side washout is almost always caused by pushing your board down the slope with your heels instead of being on top of your heels and on top of your heel side edge.

Our anatomy is such that being on top of your toes is completely natural and therefore the comfortable edge to ride. Your toes provide you with a ton of feedback.

Heels, not so good on the feedback. We want the heel side edge to carve, we try to push into the edge with our heels and all we doe is push the board down the hill; washout follows and we sit down.

I suggest you leave your bindings where they are for the time being. Next time out, focus on being "on top" of your heel side edge. That is have your weight on top of the edge, not leaning back into the hill. Leaning back and pushing on the edge is a guaranteed washout. Lots of knee bend is very helpful with getting on top of your heel edge.

I think you will find far better heel edge control with this change.

Good Luck!


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## Snowdaddy (Feb 2, 2018)

Donutz said:


> I've also found that my riding is asymmetrical in terms of heelside and toeside turns. My toeside turns are long and sweeping, but my *toesides *by default are more like a braking maneuver--short, sharp, and moving quickly to go across the fall line. As a result, I tend to wash out on heelside. I'm pretty sure it's psychological--I can see the slope when I go heelside and I unconsciously want to slow down.
> 
> I'm making a concerted effort to make sure my turns are symmetrical in both directions, and it is making a difference. Consider the possibility that, despite your more forward stance, you are also treating heelside turns different.


Did you mean heelside are more of a braking maneuver?

Personally I've found it harder to judge my arc while in a carve on the heelside. I think I push my heelsides more because I don't feel and see my trajectory the same way as in when doing the toeside.

When I wipe out it's usually because I'm pushing it too hard wand my board will start skipping. The other thing I do when I wipe out is that I lean to much into the turn on my front foot when it's steep and I'll push my back leg out turning the carve into a skid and wiping out because I'm just losing my edge.


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## chomps1211 (Mar 30, 2011)

Here's a link to some YT carving vids from snowboard addiction. They talk about and demonstrate techniques like _stacking_ ones weight over your edges. 

SA Tutorials. 

Here's their 1st carving specific tut,...





You'll want to work on getting low & stacking your weight properly over that heel edge. Good Luck.


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## zc1 (Feb 20, 2017)

Yup. Sit down more when riding heelside so that you don't end up sitting down on the hillside.


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## zc1 (Feb 20, 2017)

Snowdaddy said:


> When I wipe out it's usually because I'm pushing it too hard wand my board will start skipping.


If your board is 'skipping' on the heelside then you're probably not bending your knees (and ankles) enough. If it's too hard to sit/squat and balance over that heelside edge then your stance is probably too narrow.


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## Snowdaddy (Feb 2, 2018)

zc1 said:


> If your board is 'skipping' on the heelside then you're probably not bending your knees (and ankles) enough. If it's too hard to sit/squat and balance over that heelside edge then your stance is probably too narrow.


It's definitely also a bending problem, but also a where my weight is problem and where my fat body wants to travel. Luckily when the skipping happens my butt is very close to the ground


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## neni (Dec 24, 2012)

zc1 said:


> If your board is 'skipping' on the heelside then you're probably not bending your knees (and ankles) enough. If it's too hard to sit/squat and balance over that heelside edge then your stance is probably too narrow.


Agree. OP, instead of changing angles, try widening them first.

I use both, fwd and duck. Learned back in the day with steep +/+ (don't remember exactly... 30/15 something) but lowered them with the years but also went wider. Meanwhile my pow and cruising boards have 15/-6 angles, but the carving board is still 18/+6. 

My take is that with duck, it's easier to absorb bumps, stay centered, this cereal box thing... however, for carving, I still prefer fwd. I get more force on the edge with that stance.

The wider stance, however, was the major factor to me for improving getting lower and more on edge. 

Also... don't forget highbacks... tge lean can tweak your heelside pressure. I use different fwd leans on front and hind bindings.

And btw: holy cow, @Donutz! 61? What a surprise.


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## Snowdaddy (Feb 2, 2018)

Like the OP I'm riding positive angles now and I actually did make my stance a bit more narrow because of a knee injury. I'll widen the . stance a notch when I go kiddy-slope bombing this weekend. Maybe even get my wife to shoot some educational motion picture.


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## Donutz (May 12, 2010)

Snowdaddy said:


> Did you mean heelside are more of a braking maneuver?
> 
> Personally I've found it harder to judge my arc while in a carve on the heelside. I think I push my heelsides more because I don't feel and see my trajectory the same way as in when doing the toeside.
> 
> When I wipe out it's usually because I'm pushing it too hard wand my board will start skipping. The other thing I do when I wipe out is that I lean to much into the turn on my front foot when it's steep and I'll push my back leg out turning the carve into a skid and wiping out because I'm just losing my edge.


Yeah, I mistyped. I've corrected it in the post.

As you can see from all the posts and advice, heelsides are far more likely to be a problem than toesides. Part of that is, of course, simple physiology. But part of it is or at least can be psychological as well. I _know _that it is with me. And I've determined that my turns are asymmetrical by the simple tactic of stopping, turning around, and looking up the hill. Big swooping turn to toeside, then abbreviated comma to heelside (with spray), then big sweeping turn to toeside… Also a couple of sessions with a camera on a stick. You can learn a lot from those.

When I'm on more mellow slopes though, that doesn't happen because I'm not freaked out. And when I force myself to do sweeping heelsides on steeper slopes, the washing out goes away.

I think the issue is that once you get past the basics, subtle things can affect your riding. How and when you shift your weight, how much edge you use and when, and so on. For instance, one of my (many) problems with form is that I tend to edge more aggressively with my back foot than my front. I just discovered that this season, so that's one of the things I'll be working on.


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## Donutz (May 12, 2010)

neni said:


> And btw: holy cow, @Donutz! 61? What a surprise.


62 next month. Yep. I had a pet named Dino when I was a child. :hairy:


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## neni (Dec 24, 2012)

Donutz said:


> 62 next month. Yep. I had a pet named Dino when I was a child. :hairy:


+60 y/o were children at some point, too? :chin:

Thanks for making me feel young for some moments


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## charliefreeman (Nov 28, 2018)

Thanks all (even you young guys)!

Loads of great suggestions, most I guess I already knew. Just a matter of paying attention to form, working the edges, not being afraid to commit to the heelside. 

Widening my stance is something I've not yet tried, probably will, but will stay centered.

The good news, it's been snowing here the last few days, I can head up tomorrow and try all this out on fresh, soft snow.


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## Snowdaddy (Feb 2, 2018)

Donutz said:


> Yeah, I mistyped. I've corrected it in the post.
> 
> As you can see from all the posts and advice, heelsides are far more likely to be a problem than toesides. Part of that is, of course, simple physiology. But part of it is or at least can be psychological as well. I _know _that it is with me. And I've determined that my turns are asymmetrical by the simple tactic of stopping, turning around, and looking up the hill. Big swooping turn to toeside, then abbreviated comma to heelside (with spray), then big sweeping turn to toeside… Also a couple of sessions with a camera on a stick. You can learn a lot from those.
> 
> ...


I should definitely get myself an action camera. I've been eyeing that Hero 2018. If nothing else it it would be easier filming my kids. At the moment I'm riding around with my cellphone. It wasn't a problem when I was on skis but now it's not so easy.


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## zc1 (Feb 20, 2017)

I generally run a 23-23.5" stance width. That's where I get the best balance between stability and maneuverability/freedom of movement, but it's definitely not the norm. It's interesting to me that most boards I've come across have reference stances ~22"-22.8" (for boards of the lengths that I ride based on my weight and preferences). Jones, on the other hand, has 23.5" reference stances on all of the boards (158-161 cm) that I've ever sized to my weight. Accordingly, I found jumping on their boards to be simple when it came to binding setup. I could set all my binding discs to centre my foot in the heel-toe axis and not worry about stance width at all.


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## Scalpelman (Dec 5, 2017)

Great thread. I have found that a forward stance allows me to really lay pressure on my forward heelside edge. That helps prevent heelside washout and chatter. Def need a squatting stance for high speed carves. Do your squats. Highbacks are cranked forward. Been playing around with stance width too. Even 1/2” makes a difference. Good to hear others have different angles for different boards. As others noted, I like forward (+27/+6) for the aggressive freeride bomber, (+18/-6) duck for the twin all mountain full camber board. Still looking for a pow day to get my short fatty dialed in. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Donutz (May 12, 2010)

chomps1211 said:


> Here's a link to some YT carving vids from snowboard addiction. They talk about and demonstrate techniques like _stacking_ ones weight over your edges.
> 
> SA Tutorials.



I had a membership with SA way, way back when they first started, then cancelled it when they started going in a direction that didn't work for me. But it looks like they're back. I watched a couple of the free videos then re-upped.


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## chomps1211 (Mar 30, 2011)

Donutz said:


> I had a membership with SA way, way back when they first started, *then cancelled it when they started going in a direction that didn't work for me*. But it looks like they're back. I watched a couple of the free videos then re-upped.


What direction was that? All the Park stuff?

I had a subscription also. Downloaded a bunch of good tuts. I let it lapse as well. It looks as if they've re-filmed & re-vamped several of those tutorials.


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## charliefreeman (Nov 28, 2018)

(I thought I typed this update yesterday, but don't see it now. Here's about what I said

OP here with an update. Yesterday started with about 6" of new snow, so great conditions. I started out with my new (this season) Rossi JibSaw 154, set at + 15/+6, the setup I've been using on all my boards over the 20 years I've been riding. I spent a lot of time before I hit the slopes studying videos, reading forums, breaking down my style, thinking things through. While I consider myself an advanced rider, there are always new things to learn. Getting good, consistent heelside carving and edge hold has become my next challenge.

So, with all this info, and a VERY focussed head, off I went. One little thing that really helped was to consciously lift my toes/feet when setting the heelside edge. As long as I stayed focussed, didn't let my mind wander or get lazy, things went great. Keys were, as always, get low, bend those knees, press the edges into the hill, and so on.

But, while I was getting some serious carving and edge hold (new snow made a big difference!) I was having a hard time with my turn initiation. I describe my style as having "dancing feet," meaning lots and lots and lots of quick turns, light on my feet, lots of pop. With the setup - and new board - my turns were slower, more deliberate, not nearly as quick. The mountain was crowded, huge numbers of beginners, unpredictable behaviors, I came close to clipping few when trying to negotiate the clots when I couldn't change direction quite as quickly as needed. 

So, enter the duck!

I talked with a few expert riders, checked other's binding setups and found most, if not all, used some sort of duck stance. Even guys who were carving perfectly used this setup. I decided to give it a try. Worst case I could always change back. So, I changed to +15/-9.

HUGE difference! The dancing feet were back, much quicker turning, easy to negotiate both the few smallish bumps and the tourists. My carving *might* not be quite as precise, but I only had a few hours on the new setup and the snow was starting to get pretty choppy as the afternoon wore on. Still, I'm loving this new setup. I'll continue to tweak and play around with the "best" angles for me, but for now I'm pretty stoked.

Who says an old dog can't learn new tricks?


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## Donutz (May 12, 2010)

chomps1211 said:


> What direction was that? All the Park stuff?
> 
> I had a subscription also. Downloaded a bunch of good tuts. I let it lapse as well. It looks as if they've re-filmed & re-vamped several of those tutorials.


No, I loved the park stuff. I think it was the idea of going to online, short, subscription-based vids. Something about it just rubbed me the wrong way. Anyway, they're back to substantive vids that you can watch online or download as MP4s. And yes, they've re-done at least some of the videos (I haven't looked at them all yet). They've also added a considerable amount of detail. For those of us who are analytical and reductionist, the vids are chock full of specific techniques, and a lot less touchy-feely.


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## chomps1211 (Mar 30, 2011)

Donutz said:


> No, I loved the park stuff. I think it was the idea of going to online, short, subscription-based vids. *Some thing about it just rubbed me the wrong way.* Anyway, they're back to substantive vids that you can watch online or download as MP4s. And yes, they've re-done at least some of the videos (I haven't looked at them yet). They've also added a considerable amount of detail. For those of us who are analytical and reductionist, the vids are chock full of specific techniques, and a lot less touchy-feely.


:laugh: That's why I quit. But for me it was more not being able to watch them unless I was connected. I have them all on my laptop. Much better than streaming by phone. (...unless your getting last minute tips on the lift!)  :laugh:


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## Snowdaddy (Feb 2, 2018)

charliefreeman said:


> (I thought I typed this update yesterday, but don't see it now. Here's about what I said
> 
> OP here with an update. Yesterday started with about 6" of new snow, so great conditions. I started out with my new (this season) Rossi JibSaw 154, set at + 15/+6, the setup I've been using on all my boards over the 20 years I've been riding. I spent a lot of time before I hit the slopes studying videos, reading forums, breaking down my style, thinking things through. While I consider myself an advanced rider, there are always new things to learn. Getting good, consistent heelside carving and edge hold has become my next challenge.
> 
> ...


I took my brother for his first snowboard ride. Since we couldn't get an instructor for him I spent time some time hanging out with him on the slope. I set my rear binding to a negative and learnt to ride basic sliding switch turns while hanging out. Definitely thinking of keeping the setting for a while.

Besides, being able to ride both ways is handy and fun at times.


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