# Brannock measurement and snowboard boot sizing



## suneo (Dec 27, 2010)

Hi there, I have the 32 Lashed in Men's size 9, only ridden in them maybe 3 or 4 times. Toes hit the front when standing/walking, but pull away when flexing forward. Boots generally feel good by themselves, but sometimes I feel the toe box is a bit roomy vertically and I get a little bit of heel lift. I do get very painful feet when boarding. I know it could be many different things (over tightening bindings or laces, crappy insole, stance too wide, stance angle, etc), but I thought I'd start with boot sizing first.

A running store sized me as 9 2E. I read the brannock device sizes your foot based on the larger of either the foot length or arch length to get correct positioning of the arch. So, I'm wondering when looking for boots, do I go with the Foot length measurement or the arch length measurement?

Left foot:
Self measured 25.6cm
Brannock length: Right about 8
Brannock arch: Looks like 8.5?
Width based on arch length: E

Right foot:
Self measured 25.7cm
Brannock length: Closer to 8.5
Brannock arch: Just marginally over 9
Width based on arch length: E

Based on this information, did I get the right boot? Or should I be trying a size 8.5 Wide for a more slightly snug fit? If I went snug and then wore medium snowboard socks, would it be too tight?


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## Deacon (Mar 2, 2013)

Read this. 

Wiredsport is a genius


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## Wiredsport (Sep 16, 2009)

Hi guys,

Stoked for that Deacon, but you might have mispelled _Use Gin_ 

Suneo, I am sure we can get you sorted. 

25.6 and 25.7 both upsize to 26.0 in Mondo which equates to size 8. You fall into and interesting spot on the Mondo/Brannock conversion where your foot measurement results in the same size for both standards. That is to say both have you as size 8 (even the highly inaccurate internet sizing only boosts you to 8.5). You can play around with your #'s here for fun  Snowboard Boot Size, Chart, Calculator, Sizing

As snowboard boots do not use the Brannock standard at all in their design or production, neither the Brannock length or Brannock Arch Length are applicable.

As a side note the Brannock Device is 90 years old and was developed way before removeable / exchangable insoles. This meant that the arch in any shoe (and all other structures as well) was going to remain in its original position in relation the the rest of that shoe. Not so anymore. The arch position within a shoe or boot can easily be changed by an alternate, modified or custom insole.

First you get the length and width right and then you take care of the details 

Let's have a look under the hood. Would you mind pulling the insert from your boot liner, standing on it with your heel back in the recess and taking a photo down at your foot?

Also, the Lashed is a heat moldable boot. Have you had them heat fit?


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## suneo (Dec 27, 2010)

Hi Deacon, that's actually the first post I read last night and learned of Wired 

Hi Wired, so which device would people actually use to measure for snowboard boots? All the sporting goods stores (that also sell snow boots) I've been to around this area only have the brannock device :\ I thought it was the only measuring device around!

I actually haven't gotten my boots heat molded. They do seem plenty roomy for me though even without it, so perhaps my boot is already a bit big (originally bought based on the shoes I normally wear). The pictures of my feet on the liner sure make them look like they're swimming in it. I also never realized my left pinky toe twisted around like that lol. Huh. :icon_scratch:


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## Wiredsport (Sep 16, 2009)

Stoked to help bro.

Your pics are very helpful and I see what is going on. First off, you have a size 8 wide foot. Your feet measure just over 7.5 and if your were to use Bannock width for that size (just for reference) you are close to a 2E.

I only mention that because the scenario above often starts a bad cycle. Your width fits uncomfortably or not at all in a 7.5 or 8 boot, so you upsize to accommodate width and you end up with a boot that is far too large in terms of length and which will line up poorly in terms of all other foot structures in its stock configuration.

The insert in your boot is designed to be roughly 1 cm _smaller_ than your foot length (.5 cm for both toe and heel). This overhang means that you will be compressing into the complaint liner materials of the boot. That is what creates that snug "everywhere" fit that allows supreme joy. In your case the insert looks to be about 2.5 cm to large (except for width). Would you mind measuring the insert from toe to heel?

A bit of bad news. Fixing this boot will not be your best answer. In honesty, the fit is way off. Heat fitting does not work well when trying to correct for extra room.

I would highly suggest that you consider the wide models in size 8 from Burton or Solomon. This (and a heat fit) will fix your problems as the width issues will be correctly addressed, the stock structures will line up much better with your foot and any foot idiosyncrasies can be corrected by the heat fit.


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## Altephor (Feb 4, 2010)

Wiredsport said:


> Stoked to help bro.
> 
> Your pics are very helpful and I see what is going on. First off, you have a size 8 wide foot. Your feet measure just over 7.5 and if your were to use Bannock width for that size (just for reference) you are close to a 2E.
> 
> ...


Listen to this guy. I was in the same situation. The new Salomon Wides I got fit like a dream comparatively.


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## suneo (Dec 27, 2010)

Ahh I was afraid of that...somehow I knew my boots were too large.

I should try to measure my feet again at the end of the day, cuz it seems the insoles are 26cm. I know I've drawn around my feet to measure a couple times and come out to about the same length each time (25.x, under 26cm).

From your experience, would I go with the size 8.5 or 8, since one of my feet is slightly over 8?


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## Altephor (Feb 4, 2010)

suneo said:


> Ahh I was afraid of that...somehow I knew my boots were too large.
> 
> I should try to measure my feet again at the end of the day, cuz it seems the insoles are 26cm. I know I've drawn around my feet to measure a couple times and come out to about the same length each time (25.x, under 26cm).
> 
> From your experience, would I go with the size 8.5 or 8, since one of my feet is slightly over 8?


26 cm is size 8. You are on the low end of size 8.


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## Wiredsport (Sep 16, 2009)

Yes, the trace around method can add size. Your photos show you about 1 to 1.5 cm inside the confines of the insole so it seems like we are a bit off somewhere. The insole appears to measure at a bit over 10.5 inches which is 26.67 cm. That would make sense. Please try this.

Kick your heel (barefoot please, no socks) back against a wall. Mark the floor exactly at the tip of your toe (the one that sticks out furthest - which toe this is will vary by rider). Measure from the mark on the floor to the wall. That is your foot length and is the only measurement that you will want to use. Measure in centimeters if possible, but if not, take inches and multiply by 2.54 (example: an 11.25 inch foot x 2.54 = 28.57 centimeters).


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## suneo (Dec 27, 2010)

So I finally got to get the measurement after being up and about all day. Length measurements (and width while I'm at it) are right down to the very edges of the foot:

Right foot: 25.4 cm L x 10.48cm W
Left foot: 25.1 cm L x 10.63cm W


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## Wiredsport (Sep 16, 2009)

suneo said:


> So I finally got to get the measurement after being up and about all day. Length measurements (and width while I'm at it) are right down to the very edges of the foot:
> 
> Right foot: 25.4 cm L x 10.48cm W
> Left foot: 25.1 cm L x 10.63cm W


Got it. All is clear now . You are just over a size 7 on your left and just under a size 7.5 on your right. This explains what we are seeing on your current inserts and why they are not working for you. 

You current boots are almost 2 sizes too long for your left foot and 1.5 sizes too long for your right...and they are still not wide enough for your foot .

Don't feel bad. It is very common for us to see this length discrepancy (or worse) with wide feet at all areas of the size range.

Now, on a Brannock device (again for reference) and now using the size 7 of your left foot your width would be over 2E. I mention that because we have a choice to make.

If you go with size 7.5 only the Burton Ruler Wide will be wide enough. The Salomon's are great but they will still side pressure your foot in that size. If you go with one of the Salomon Wide's as Altephor has, you would need to upsize to size 8. In the smaller sizes these boots are not quite as wide as the Burton.

My bias would be for the 7.5 but either will offer a huge improvement. Note: they are going to feel very odd when you first put them on .

Stoked!


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## suneo (Dec 27, 2010)

Thanks for the awesome feedback Wired!

Man I never would have thought I'm a size 7 or 7.5 haha. I didn't really get to spend as much time trying on boots as I wanted to today. I could only find some Burton boots (non wide) in size 8 and 9. I actually did try I believe some older Burton Rulers in size 9 when I was first looking for boots, but they didn't work out due to various hot spots so I thought it just wasn't fitting well.

In the size 8's, it felt like they were crushing my feet on the sides, so I'd definitely need the wide haha. No argument there.

Weirdly enough, when I tried on the size 9, it definitely felt more snug than the 32 Lashed boots in 9 (2010 model btw). Dunno if it's just cuz Burton sizing is different, or if the 32's really packed out a lot in the few times I wore them, but it was more snug for sure.

I'm gonna go on the search for some Wide boots, perhaps the Salomon as I've never tried their brand before and I like to try different things out. Any specific brand/models you have in mind that could work out? Traditional laces preferred, or anything with upper and lower zone adjustability... Would you also suggest trying brands out that don't have Wide sizes per se, but tend to fit wider naturally? I'd read that boots from DC, Celsius, and even 32 are wider fitting than other brands, despite not having any actual Wide sizes.


Altephor, if you don't mind my asking, which model Salomon wide's did you end up getting?


edit: Just did a quick search for brands with wide sizes. Pretty much only Burton Ruler, Salomon Synapse, and Salomon Dialogue. Is that really all the options that are available for those looking for a specifically "Wide" sized boot??


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## Wiredsport (Sep 16, 2009)

Hi Bro,

Yes, at the moment you are looking at Salomon and Burton for Wide and unfortunately, you are not likely going to find either in your size in stores.

Other boots are based on normal width lasts. Which are typically in the Brannock C-D width range (even the _slightly_ wider one's). That will not help you at all. We need to get you into a significantly shorter Wide boot. It has to be Wide for you to get into the correct length.

Altephor was in a similar situation a few months back and he went with the Salomon Dialogue Wide. The Burton Ruler Wide is the only Burton Wide model.


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## Altephor (Feb 4, 2010)

suneo said:


> Thanks for the awesome feedback Wired!
> 
> Man I never would have thought I'm a size 7 or 7.5 haha. I didn't really get to spend as much time trying on boots as I wanted to today. I could only find some Burton boots (non wide) in size 8 and 9. I actually did try I believe some older Burton Rulers in size 9 when I was first looking for boots, but they didn't work out due to various hot spots so I thought it just wasn't fitting well.
> 
> ...


Yes, those are the only options, unfortunately. They are all speed-laced boots. I went with the Dialogue Wide. They aren't perfect, I still get some squeezing and a couple pressure points but after heat-molding they are miles ahead of my old insanos.

Unfortunately, you won't find the wides in-store. I had to ante up and order them blind from evo.com. Find a place with a good return policy so you can just ship them back if need be.


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## suneo (Dec 27, 2010)

Well shoot. I was going to go for the Salomon Synapse Wide just cuz I'd likely prefer this lacing system more, but seems no online store has it anymore, even Salomon's own site. :\

Another quick question: When they say your longest toe should be just touching/not crushed in the boot, do they mean toe against the liner, or toe against the outer boot? I mentioned my toes hit the front when standing and pulls away when flexing forward...I meant this in relation to the liner.


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## Altephor (Feb 4, 2010)

suneo said:


> Well shoot. I was going to go for the Salomon Synapse Wide just cuz I'd likely prefer this lacing system more, but seems no online store has it anymore, even Salomon's own site. :\
> 
> Another quick question: When they say your longest toe should be just touching/not crushed in the boot, do they mean toe against the liner, or toe against the outer boot? I mentioned my toes hit the front when standing and pulls away when flexing forward...I meant this in relation to the liner.


Your toes should press firmly against the end of the liner and pull away when you're in riding stance.

The Salomon lacing system is nice, especially the liner. That's why I went with them over Burton, even though the Burton wide is wider. 

It will feel weird when you put your foot in the wide-specific boot. It will feel much more snug than the larger sizes you've been using (for obvious reasons), but when you tighten them down you won't be crushing the sides of your feet and losing circulation. My feet used to be numb and stone cold in my insanos after 20 minutes. So far I've only experienced that once in my Salomons and it's because I cranked them too much.


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## larrytbull (Oct 30, 2013)

Wiredsport said:


> Hi Bro,
> 
> Yes, at the moment you are looking at Salomon and Burton for Wide and unfortunately, you are not likely going to find either in your size in stores.
> 
> ...


Wired,

Do any Mfrs make a wide with boa? I hate lacing


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## suneo (Dec 27, 2010)

Altephor said:


> Your toes should press firmly against the end of the liner and pull away when you're in riding stance.
> 
> The Salomon lacing system is nice, especially the liner. That's why I went with them over Burton, even though the Burton wide is wider.
> 
> It will feel weird when you put your foot in the wide-specific boot. It will feel much more snug than the larger sizes you've been using (for obvious reasons), but when you tighten them down you won't be crushing the sides of your feet and losing circulation. My feet used to be numb and stone cold in my insanos after 20 minutes. So far I've only experienced that once in my Salomons and it's because I cranked them too much.


Got it, thanks Altephor and Wired for the excellent feedback! :bowdown:
Time to do some searching.


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## Wiredsport (Sep 16, 2009)

larrytbull said:


> Wired,
> 
> Do any Mfrs make a wide with boa? I hate lacing


I wish they did, but no. These few options are very limited...but they are really valuable to many riders who have been heavily compromising. A few years ago there were no wide options .


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## suneo (Dec 27, 2010)

Hey guys so it's me again. While waiting for a sale and after heading up to the mountain twice, getting painful/numb feet, a blister on the side of my calf and also feeling like almost flying out of my boots due to heel lift, I finally went and got some Salomon Dialogue wide boots. I got size 8 wide (Mondo 260) and here's what I found (Pics of my feet on the liners are attached):

1) Insole is still way small for my feet, but length is spot on. Standing straight my toes touch the front, leaning forward my toes pull away slightly.
2) It's actually easier for me to get my feet into these boots vs my size 9 Lashed funny enough.
3) The liner and insole material/cushion feels so good.
4) The dual zone speed lacing they have is actually not so bad, but I worry about the durability of it.
5) The front half of my foot feels cramped, though don't know if that's because of the more snug fit, or because the width is still not quite enough.
6) I do feel a bit of a pressure point on the top of my foot, but I think if the boot breaks in or the liner molds to my foot a bit it would be a little better.

So my question is, would sizing up to an 8.5w in Salomon be any better for me in the width department, or would it just serve to cause more foot pain due to wearing a boot too large? Or should I just stick with it, though honestly I don't know if I'll be able to get up to the mountain again this season lol.


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## Wiredsport (Sep 16, 2009)

Hi Suneo,

You don't want to go longer. In a perfect world you would go 1 size smaller and a full cm wider but that boot does not exist. The Burton Ruler is going to be the closest to that. It is significantly wider in the smaller sizes and maintains more width as boot size decreases.Were you able to try any of those?


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## suneo (Dec 27, 2010)

Nope, unfortunately not. I ordered from online so I'll need to pay the return shipping on these. Kinda want to avoid having to pay for every return so I want to do what I can to make sure of the boot before buying again. Maybe I should've bought both boots at the same time haha.


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## suneo (Dec 27, 2010)

Since I just happened to replace the insoles in one of my shoes this past weekend, would replacing the stock insoles with my own, wider insoles be of any help in this case?


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## Wiredsport (Sep 16, 2009)

suneo said:


> Since I just happened to replace the insoles in one of my shoes this past weekend, would replacing the stock insoles with my own, wider insoles be of any help in this case?


Hi,

Unfortunately no. That would not decrease length or add width to the boot.


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## Deacon (Mar 2, 2013)

ferguson.brian2000 said:


> Wow, this is a interesting and hard question. I can advise a useful article Top 5 Best Shoe Sizers (Measuring Devices) [2020 Reviews] - Leather Toolkits on how to measure feet correctly and calculate the load.


Mmmmm, spammy.


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## Donutz (May 12, 2010)

Deacon said:


> Mmmmm, spammy.


Yeah, definitely. But unusually for this type of situation, it seems to be on-topic for the thread.


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