# Tree fear



## 5forty

Hey guys. I'm going on a three week trip to Japan in the new year. I've been riding for many years and I'm clued up in most areas. My one remaining fear is trees. In my early days I got stranded in trees in deep pow, fell and couldn't get back afloat. After an hour or so, now dark, I finally managed to get on my board on my knees and paddle out. The group I was with weren't friends and had left me. It's played on my mind since and while I'm a good rider and can handle trees and pow perfectly well, I've stopped going late in the afternoon. I'm wondering if there's any kit I can buy to make things easier? Splitboard? Snowshoes? Or any skills I can pick up - snow caves? - to get over this fear. Cheers guys.


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## DaveMcI

A powder board will certainly help. Maybe a backcountry pack with some BC tools like a shovel, probe, and some candy bars. Snickers could save your life.


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## ridinbend

You don't have to commit to going deep into the trees right off the bat. Make your way off trail progressively in areas you see comfortable hitting and know your terrain so you don't get caught in any flat spots. A good rule in foreign land is don't go anywhere you don't see at least one track.


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## Argo

Rule 1. Only go where you see at least one track.

Rule 2. Never follow unknown tracks. Lol

Really though, short excursions into the trees is best to start then you can see your next line further into them. If you can get a good vantage point of an area to spot your lines that works too. 

Definitely watch for flats ahead and haul ass so you don't get stuck and don't ever look at the trees.


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## Oldman

It seems pretty straightforward, but you have to keep looking down your line. When we started driving a car, the instructor always encouraged you to look down the road. You need to know what's coming, not what is 5 feet in front of you.

The same when doing Trees / Glades. You must train your self to keep looking ahead, at least two turns ahead so you avoid flats as mentioned above and keep your rhythm going.


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## 5forty

Hey, thanks for all the responses so far. I wasn't clear enough, sorry. I'm really OK at riding trees, and pow, and pow in trees, what I'm utterly rubbish at is getting up when I inevitably fall. I could not fall, of course, but that seems to defeat the point. If I'm trying to get better, go faster, jump more, get tighter lines, I'm going to fall, then get stuck, then not be able to get up cos of the pow. I tree-welled myself a couple of years ago, and was stuck for aaaaages. Was thinking maybe having ski poles would help!? So yeah, the other option is to not push myself and make sure I stay up I guess... Maybe it's only falling when it's steep!? Maybe I just need to MTFU...


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## Oldman

I don't think you need to MTFU, you need to smarten up. I'm being harsh here, because based on what you have told us, the conditions you have described MANDATE that you ride with a buddy, NEVER ALONE!!!!

If you can't find someone to ride with in those conditions, you don't ride them. CAN"T BE MORE SPECIFIC THAN THAT. Yes, I am yelling at you. If you choose to ignore this advice, some day soon you'll be dead.


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## 5forty

LOL. Funny. Not sure i get what you're trying to get at there. But i guess they are good shouty intentions... So I do ride with mates. But normally we're not riding so close that we know where each of us are in trees. On the times I've been worringly stuck, I've been last in the group, the others are down hill, with no way to get back up to look for me, or knowledge that I'm above or below them. So they don't wait as they don't know where i am. Maybe that's the problem, perhaps we should ride closer, in eye view of each other, but that tends not to happen in trees as we're hooning with pow everywhere, not bobbing along looking where mates are...


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## Oldman

You know, you just can't fix stupid. I'm out of here.


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## ridinbend

Oldman said:


> You know, you just can't fix stupid. I'm out of here.


Calm down grandpa. I ride side country alone all the time.




> . I could not fall, of course, but that seems to defeat the point.


No. The point is not to fall.


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## mojo maestro

Ride with a pack. When you fall in the "deep", use the pack like a snowshoe for your hand(s). As a bonus......a pack can carry barley pops. Of course a pack won't help fuckall if you go head first into a tree well. Takes practice and discipline to ride within sight of each other. Talk to your "homies" about your concerns on those deep days........if they balk at the idea......find some better friends.


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## 5forty

Pack as a snowshoe for hands, a snowglove - genius! Great shout, thanks. 

Re riding close to buds, seems so obvious. You're right, I think it probably is the discipline thing - we just get crazy and start blasting in trees. On open faces, we're much more disciplined, studying aspects, snowpack, looking at risks, taking turns etc. No idea what happens when we get in the forest...

Am also thinking of investigating helmet walkie-talkie systems...

And yeah, OK, maybe staying in control a little more might help


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## chomps1211

mojo maestro said:


> .....Of course a pack won't help fuckall if you go head first into a tree well. Takes practice and discipline to ride within' sight of each other. *Talk to your "homies" about your concerns on those deep days........if they balk at the idea......find some better friends.*


^this^

To the OP,.. I haven't got the time to do it myself and post up a link, but you would be well served to do a forum search for "tree wells!" Iir, there were some pretty scary stories and a few sobering video clips posted in those threads. 

I also seem to remember one of our members posting a few pictures detailing the way he rigged his bindings so he could release and get out of them _without_ having to reach them with his hands if he ever got upside down in a tree well. I'm pretty sure it was in one of those threads concerning backcountry riding, tree wells, or just general BC safety.

There was also a clip posted of some dumbass skier who followed a line of tracks in the snow right off a cliff. Caught it all on his go pro and everything.

"Don't be _THAT_ guy!!!"


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## deagol

last winter in Telluride, a young strong expert snowboarder (in his early 20's) who was experienced in the back-country died in a tree well in-bounds at the ski area. He was riding with friends, but they must have not noticed what happened to him. 

I was friends with his parents.. tried to find a news story on it, but there doesn't seem to be one. 

moral of the story: not sure, but ride with friends and stay in visual distance? that's actually very hard to do in the trees. There are no perfect answers or 100% guarantees.


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## bksdds

I never knew what a tree well was until I made the mistake of getting off my board when I came to a stop on the flats next to what I thought was a baby evergreen tree. I unstrapped one boot to push myself....that whole leg sunk down and I thought what the hell is going on here. I took my other boot out thinking maybe I just hit a soft spot or something and big mistake. I found myself up to my armpits and my legs below were dangling in the air in the well below. Instinctively I grabbed my board to use to slowly pull myself up on it. I didn't know how tall the tree really was until I looked into the hole. I layed on my board and paddled away. For some reason I freaked myself out a little thinking there was a bear hibernating down there too. After that I kind of had a little fear of trees but not as bad as the OP. Also my friends were with me and they were just taking pictures laughing. I learned never get stuck in deep snow around trees. I'll post a picture if I can find it.


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## Rogue

deagol said:


> moral of the story: not sure, but ride with friends and stay in visual distance? that's actually very hard to do in the trees. There are no perfect answers or 100% guarantees.


+1. 
There are safeguards but no 100% fool proof way of not having this issue if you choose to ride off piste.

I was close to the bottom of a lift, early season blower pow and sunk over a creek. Lift was in sight but no one could see me anymore and I had no ground beneath me, just loose snow. So after digging and getting my boots unstrapped, I stepped and sunk down because only the creek and loose snow was beneath me, but I eventually made contact with the bank and slowly climbedl/crawled my way up. It was absolutely terrifying. My friends were waiting down by the lift. 

You can ride with people, try to stay up and be careful but you really never know. That's the thrilling/terrifying part of riding off piste.


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## deagol

Rogue said:


> +1.
> There are safeguards but no 100% fool proof way of not having this issue if you choose to ride off piste.
> 
> I was close to the bottom of a lift, early season blower pow and sunk over a creek. Lift was in sight but no one could see me anymore and I had no ground beneath me, just loose snow. So after digging and getting my boots unstrapped, I stepped and sunk down because only the creek and loose snow was beneath me, but I eventually made contact with the bank and slowly climbedl/crawled my way up. It was absolutely terrifying. My friends were waiting down by the lift.
> 
> You can ride with people, try to stay up and be careful but you really never know. That's the thrilling/terrifying part of riding off piste.


I had a similar situation to what Rogue describes decades ago at Wolf Creek where I was drowning in ultra deep hollow powder and had to walk along a buried log while plowing through snow that was ontop of the log. If my feet fell off that log, I think I would have went under the surface 'cuz the snow was so hollow and unsupported underneath .. exhausting and scary.

this got me thinking: some kayakers and canyoneers keep a whistle attached to their helmet straps to get freinds' attention when something goes wrong in a loud situation (think running water/rapids) where a human voice would not carry. Back-country skiers/boarders also sometimes have a whistle.


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## Rogue

Another great pointer. My Dakine backpack I ride with has a whistle built into the chest strap so just tucking my chin I can reach it. (i wasn't at the point yet I felt like I needed to use it or maybe I was scared enough I forgot it) 

Although a potential hazard, I've seen some riders with a whistle as their jacket zipper so it's usuable without needing your hands.


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## highme

Dead is easy. Know the conditions & your limitations. If it feels off, don't do it.


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## chomps1211

deagol said:


> * ...this got me thinking: some kayakers and canyoneers keep a whistle attached to their helmet straps to get freinds' attention when something goes wrong in a loud situation (think running water/rapids) where a human voice would not carry. Back-country skiers/boarders also sometimes have a whistle.*


I was just about to suggest this very thing! 

I had already made up my mind a couple seasons ago after reading those tree well stories, to keep the whistle I use when I'm paddling with me whenever I go riding. It's just a light weight plastic thing and I have it on a lanyard around my neck. (...if I ever wind up upside down? Figure it's easier to get to it that way.) 

I scared The shit out of a lady friend that I used to ride with a couple years ago up at Boyne Highlands. We had just had an extremely rare, (..."and my first") 18 to 20 inch POW dump and I decided to try my luck ducking into the trees off the side of the run. I told her I'd meet her at the lift in a few minutes. 

Fortunately I didn't get hurt, and I didn't get stuck in a well! But what I did do,..? Was fall!! A lot!! And every time I did the snow was _just_ deep enough that it took me a good 5-10 or even 15 minutes to get myself back upright, strapped in and start moving again. 

By the time I finally emerged from the short tract of tight, un thinned, trees,..? What should've been only a 10 or 15 minute delay getting to the bottom wound up being closer to 45 minutes or an hour! I was sweating bullets, soaking wet, and completely exhausted. And and that poor little girl was in tears. 
When she finnaly spotted me coming down the wrong side of the run, she started bitching & cursing me out! She told me she just convinced the lifty to call the ski patrol! She figured I had crashed or cracked up hitting a tree or sum shit!! (...which I easily could have done, btw! :eyetwitch2::embarrased1::facepalm1: )

This all occurred on a small, MI. Hill with a measly 600' of vert, in _less_ than 24"-30" of snow and within 50'-100' of the groomed trails !! I learned my lesson about going alone into unmarked shit. Even what looks like "simple, easy" shit! :facepalm1::embarrased1:

Don't take _anything_ for granted!


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## Tubby Beaver

5forty said:


> Hey guys. I'm going on a three week trip to Japan in the new year. I've been riding for many years and I'm clued up in most areas. My one remaining fear is trees. In my early days I got stranded in trees in deep pow, fell and couldn't get back afloat. After an hour or so, now dark, I finally managed to get on my board on my knees and paddle out. The group I was with weren't friends and had left me. It's played on my mind since and while I'm a good rider and can handle trees and pow perfectly well, I've stopped going late in the afternoon. I'm wondering if there's any kit I can buy to make things easier? Splitboard? Snowshoes? Or any skills I can pick up - snow caves? - to get over this fear. Cheers guys.



Tree wells aren't as much of a problem over here as a lot of the forests are made up of trees that shed their leaves.....a lot of silver birch forests for example. Still good to keep your wits about you as of course there are evergreens but, IME most of the forests are made up of deciduous trees


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## SkullAndXbones

trees don't kill people. people with trees kill people


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## Tubby Beaver

5forty said:


> Pack as a snowshoe for hands, a snowglove - genius! Great shout, thanks.
> 
> Re riding close to buds, seems so obvious. You're right, I think it probably is the discipline thing - we just get crazy and start blasting in trees. On open faces, we're much more disciplined, studying aspects, snowpack, looking at risks, taking turns etc. No idea what happens when we get in the forest...
> 
> Am also thinking of investigating *helmet walkie-talkie systems*...
> 
> And yeah, OK, maybe staying in control a little more might help


Foreign bought walkie-talkie systems are banned in Japan, something about the frequency they use interfering with the emergency band here in Japan.....I'm not 100% sure but worth thinking about before bringing them over


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## mojo maestro

SkullAndXbones said:


> trees don't kill people. people with trees kill people


If a boarder hits a tree in the middle of the forest............does it make a sound?


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## chomps1211

mojo maestro said:


> If a boarder hits a tree in the middle of the forest............does it make a sound?


Can't speak for the trees,.. But *"I"* certainly make a Helluva racket afterwards!!!!  :laugh:


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## Nocturnal7x

chomps1211 said:


> There was also a clip posted of some dumbass skier who followed a line of tracks in the snow right off a cliff. Caught it all on his go pro and everything.
> 
> "Don't be _THAT_ guy!!!"


This one?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q0LILXfwhdk


damn.


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## deagol

Nocturnal7x said:


> This one?
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q0LILXfwhdk
> 
> 
> damn.


damn is right!

I've seen that video before, but it still hurts watching it... 

At least he got it on video, that's the important thing, right?


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## WasabiCanuck

:eyetwitch2:

This thread is scaring the shit out of me :eyetwitch2:

I used to hit side country a bit but I'm older now so I take it easy. Who said getting old sucks? I love getting old, less chance of me doing something stupid and getting killed or put into a wheel chair for the rest of my life.

Over 40 ftw!!!


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## deagol

Rogue said:


> Another great pointer. My Dakine backpack I ride with has a whistle built into the chest strap so just tucking my chin I can reach it. (i wasn't at the point yet I felt like I needed to use it or maybe I was scared enough I forgot it)
> 
> ...


I realized that my back-country pack has the same thing. I have never used it or even thought about it before..


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## mojo maestro

WasabiCanuck said:


> Who said getting old sucks? I love getting old, less chance of me doing something stupid and getting killed or put into a wheel chair for the rest of my life.
> 
> Over 40 ftw!!!


Just wait..........pretty soon you won't remember shit, won't give a shit. Say whatever you want. Do whatever you want. I barely wear pants anymore.......damn kids.....get off my lawn!


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## wrathfuldeity

a few things

if its that deep...why ride trees...ride open where you can see the line and see the buds

as best as possible know where you are riding...check out topo maps

with a crew that is disciplined and knows the fucking plan...and more importantly talks/communicates...keep in contact...

plan and ride leap frog....set points to stop in a visible spot, next rider goes and passes the stopped and further stops within site ....leap frogging

put the weakest rider in the middle of the crew...local terrain guy in front....and strong seasoned guy does clean up in the rear

use whistles and have signal codes and/or 

carry 2 way radios and have them on and use them when/if the leap frog thing is not working well

have your bc gear and knowledge shit together

riding a splitty would be a good idea...skinning out is hell of a lot better than swimming. 

maybe killz or other split folks have other ideas


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## Oldman

OK, we are now 4 pages in, OP has been gone after getting the tip that a "backpack" was going to save his bacon, but I'm happy to see that the wisdom of the elders here has once again shone very brightly.

I don't know the demographics of this community, but I would be willing to bet that the majority are sub 30 years of age. I remember being that age and I know that at that time I was invincible. With age comes a respect for life and the world at large; you see things differently. Being able to ride is something I plan on doing until they have me pushing up daisies. 

I want nothing more than to have all of us, if we so desire, to do the same. However, as the stories and videos have shown definitively, the damn tree will win every time. Hit one, tree well, take your pick, they will "bury" you without a second thought. We read and hear about such stories each and every season. 

I have a sum total of :censored1: all with regards to off slope / back country experience. But even if I haven't done it, I have listened to and would heed the advice of those on this forum who have. There are many here who have the experience and knowledge about such things and I love this place for the opportunity to have such a resource at my disposal. 

On this topic, I compare the backcountry / tree riding experience similar to what I do know and that is scuba diving. One golden rule as Wrath has pointed out. In diving you do the following:

Never Dive alone.

Plan the Dive / Dive the Plan

It's not likely the "equipment" that is going to save your life, it's following the protocol that you have set in place that will keep you in a position that you don't need the "equipment". That protocol has a better chance of keeping you around to ride another day. By all means have the equipment, for as we all know in such environments, *@%! happens, but you have to play smart.

Sorry all, end of Grandpa Rant. The OP just seemed to be blowing off the most critical part of this whole subject, IMHO.


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## timmytard

Haha, this is a funny thread.

Lots of good info, I haven't finished yet, so more hilarity to come,:hairy:

I ride almost exclusively by myself, if there's lots of snow, haha I am nowhere to be seen.

I think of all those things, not just the tree wells.

Ski poles no, Bamboo pole, yes. With glow sticks zap strapped to either end.

You can actually ride with a bamboo pole & you can lean into it while turning.

It takes some getting used too, but imo, it's better than nothing. Tight trees, prolly a hindrance. 

An Avalung, I bought one. Have never needed to bring it out, YET.

A whistle, , hanging around your neck. It never comes off. Think of it like your wedding band. It never comes off.

I've hung the other walkie talkey, out of the pair, right over top of ski patrols hut, in the rafters. The other in my breast pocket.

The more you do , has got to add up? I would think?


Cause nobody plans for this too happen

https://vimeo.com/


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## timmytard

mojo maestro said:


> Just wait..........pretty soon you won't remember shit, won't give a shit. Say whatever you want. Do whatever you want. I barely wear pants anymore.......damn kids.....get off my lawn!


qft.

Especially the pants thing.


TT


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## neni

wrathfuldeity said:


> plan and ride leap frog....set points to stop in a visible spot, next rider goes and passes the stopped and further stops within site ....leap frogging


+100
Tho, I see that it's easy to loose sight in trees. It's also hard in our open terrain to always ride in sight of each other's even tho we do have a plan, wait for eachother at pre-defined spots... sometimes the next save spot just isn't in sight but behind a rock, bend whatever. To combine waiting spots in not too far distance with walky-talkies sure is a good idea. "Chrrr... eh, you're still alive?" "Chrrrr positive! Have a smoke till I'm there... Gotta dig myself out!" :facepalm3: 



wrathfuldeity said:


> put the weakest rider in the middle of the crew...local terrain guy in front....and strong seasoned guy does clean up in the rear


That's a good sequence, but only works with a disciplined last rider .


Haha, Oldman, I'm with you. Reading such posts make my toe nails curl...


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## 5forty

Wow. A lot of savagely good advice here, along with the normal self righteous judgemental ivory tower pompous bullshit, of course. Ahhh internet forums, gots to love em 

So my takeaways thus far:

- love the whistles and signals ideas (shame can't use walkie talkies in Japan - maybe for the next trip). That's gonna happen and we can work on it when we do our rescue practice. Nice...
- much less risk of tree wells in Japan due to not evergreens, lead me into reading more about tree wells form, so I'm now much more clued up in that area, very interesting, will be looking for the bigger gaps from now on that's for sure.
- tree wells account for 20% of ski/board deaths!! what the actual fuck!?! Avalanches have one cracking PR firm, cos I knew nothing really about tree well deaths until now. Word needs to get out more. 
- currently investigating buying an avalung, though from what I've seen, unless you're sucking that thing all the way down, it'll do jack... I can see me not doing that... Thoughts anyone??
- biggest takeaway has been pack riding. Which meant changing crew culture. So I've shit the life out of them over the last 24 hours, by sending loads of tree well vids from YouTube (some horrific stuff on there). Along with the 20% stat. So i came on here to fix my tree fear, I've ended up giving my tree fear to the rest of the posse. Ha ha...

Thanks for all wisdom this far guys


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## ridinbend

5forty said:


> Wow. A lot of savagely good advice here, along with the normal self righteous judgemental ivory tower pompous bullshit, of course. Ahhh internet forums, gots to love em
> 
> So my takeaways thus far:
> 
> - love the whistles and signals ideas (shame can't use walkie talkies in Japan - maybe for the next trip). That's gonna happen and we can work on it when we do our rescue practice. Nice...
> - much less risk of tree wells in Japan due to not evergreens, lead me into reading more about tree wells form, so I'm now much more clued up in that area, very interesting, will be looking for the bigger gaps from now on that's for sure.
> - tree wells account for 20% of ski/board deaths!! what the actual fuck!?! Avalanches have one cracking PR firm, cos I knew nothing really about tree well deaths until now. Word needs to get out more.
> - currently investigating buying an avalung, though from what I've seen, unless you're sucking that thing all the way down, it'll do jack... I can see me not doing that... Thoughts anyone??
> - biggest takeaway has been pack riding. Which meant changing crew culture. So I've shit the life out of them over the last 24 hours, by sending loads of tree well vids from YouTube (some horrific stuff on there). Along with the 20% stat. So i came on here to fix my tree fear, I've ended up giving my tree fear to the rest of the posse. Ha ha...
> 
> Thanks for all wisdom this far guys


I'll sell you my avalung, plastic still on the mouth piece. 

On another note, tree wells are scary, I've had an encounter with one before, while riding in a group. Nobody can hear you once your in and you can't hear anybody else. It was a pow day, group was moving through the trees and I was tailing left. Came over a small rise to see a tree directly in front of me. I went straight underneath it and got pinned with my back against the well, knees in my chest and board against the tree. The worst part was all the snow falling on my face making me feel like I was suffocating. Probably what water boarding feels like. I immediately started screaming at the top of my lungs for the guy I knew was in front of me. He had actually stopped about 25 yards down and was looking for me. He was yelling, I was screaming and neither of us could hear each other. After a minute I composed myself and was able to get unbuckled and began the process of climbing out. If I moved a branch more snow fell. Eventually I came out from under the tree with my homie not more than a few feet away. We never heard each other. I now have a whistle that is my zipper so it's literally at my mouth. My take from the scary experience. 

1. Whistle
2. Music is not necessary
3. Group riding is necessary on deep pow days
4. Slow your speed when you are unsure what's in front of you (no cliffs in our sidecountry but tree wells lurk silently waiting to kill)
5. Keep track of your group frequently 
6. Snowboarding is dangerous, be safe and smart and always err on the side of caution 


You need to have a beacon, shovel and probe. If you can't get into an avy class this year at least read http://www.amazon.com/Staying-Alive-Avalanche-Terrain-Tremper/dp/1594850844



Enjoy Japan and just make good decisions

Cheers


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## 5forty

ridinbend said:


> I'll sell you my avalung, plastic still on the mouth piece.
> 
> You need to have a beacon, shovel and probe. If you can't get into an avy class this year at least read http://www.amazon.com/Staying-Alive-Avalanche-Terrain-Tremper/dp/1594850844
> 
> Enjoy Japan and just make good decisions
> 
> Cheers


- PM me about the avalung.

- Yeah I got all the avy gear and know how to use it. I just downloaded that book - can't read that stuff enough - thanks for the recommendation.

- Cheers! I'll do my very best


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## deagol

5forty said:


> ..- currently investigating buying an avalung, though from what I've seen, unless you're sucking that thing all the way down, it'll do jack... I can see me not doing that... Thoughts anyone??
> ..


I have one, use it for back country riding (i.e. out away from ski area). I don't consider riding in the trees at a ski area as "back country" as some others do- Just to clarify. 

I have never used the Avalung at a ski area. But I have used it on a snowcat trip as well as actual "back country". 

As far as thoughts: thankfully I've never needed it for it's intended purpose, but I have breathed through it while riding just to test it out. It would suck beyond belief to have to actually breath through it if/while buried, but it's better than the alternative. I think they recommend breathing through it all the way down, which I can't bring myself to do. Although if I was in ultra deep snow that got sprayed up in-front of me (like you see in some of those videos) it seems like that would be a huge help. 

If I ever was lucky enough to be at a ski area during an exceptionally good powder day, I might consider taking the Avalung along with me, but it's never happened yet. I have seen them worn at ski area on rare occasions, though.


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## F1EA

5forty said:


> Wow. A lot of savagely good advice here, along with the normal self righteous judgemental ivory tower pompous bullshit, of course. Ahhh internet forums, gots to love em
> 
> So my takeaways thus far:
> 
> - love the whistles and signals ideas (shame can't use walkie talkies in Japan - maybe for the next trip). That's gonna happen and we can work on it when we do our rescue practice. Nice...
> - much less risk of tree wells in Japan due to not evergreens, lead me into reading more about tree wells form, so I'm now much more clued up in that area, very interesting, will be looking for the bigger gaps from now on that's for sure.
> - tree wells account for 20% of ski/board deaths!! what the actual fuck!?! Avalanches have one cracking PR firm, cos I knew nothing really about tree well deaths until now. Word needs to get out more.
> - currently investigating buying an avalung, though from what I've seen, unless you're sucking that thing all the way down, it'll do jack... I can see me not doing that... Thoughts anyone??
> - biggest takeaway has been pack riding. Which meant changing crew culture. So I've shit the life out of them over the last 24 hours, by sending loads of tree well vids from YouTube (some horrific stuff on there). Along with the 20% stat. So i came on here to fix my tree fear, I've ended up giving my tree fear to the rest of the posse. Ha ha...
> 
> Thanks for all wisdom this far guys


lol
Good post.


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## Oldman

Self righteous judgemental ivory tower pompous poster here.

"tree wells account for 20% of ski/board deaths!! what the actual fuck!?! Avalanches have one cracking PR firm, cos I knew nothing really about tree well deaths until now. Word needs to get out more"

"- Yeah I got all the avy gear and know how to use it.":blahblah:

Am I missing something here? If you have all the gear and know how to use it, you would have known about an Avalung. You also would have known about Tree Wells.

Just an little observation...... back to my tower I go.


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## chomps1211

wrathfuldeity said:


> .....put the weakest rider in the middle of the crew...


"....clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right! Here I am, Stuck in the middle of the crew!!" :wink:


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## chomps1211

Oldman said:


> Am I missing something here? If you have all the gear and know how to use it, you would have known about an Avalung. You also would have known about Tree Wells.
> 
> *Just an little observation...... back to my tower I go.*


*
*

Say hello to Golum and the Dark Lord for me!!!  :laugh:


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## WasabiCanuck

I guess guys should maybe stop joking about needing snorkels on epic powder days. That Avalung is kinda like a snorkel. What about those avalanche air bags? Does anyone here use those? Do you have to pull a cord to inflate it? Would you even have time in a tree well?

I don't have hard stats but guys that work in Sunshine Village told me that a couple of people die there every year. I'm sure that happens at many resorts. And it's not just dumb newbies either. They told me about their friend who worked there died last year. I guess this guy was an excellent rider, they said he could ride switch at 80km/h. There is lots of steep tree riding at Sunshine and he hit a tree at very high speed and died instantly. Very sad. Sometimes skill doesn't matter. I only mention this to remind everyone to be safe out there.
Ok old man rant done.


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## deagol

I know Killclimbz uses a float pack (avalanche air bag), but I've never seen him set it off. 

the young guy I knew of (didn't know him, but knew his parents) who died at Telluride was not even remotely a newbie, so that is pretty good evidence to me that getting caught in a tree well can happen to anyone.


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## SnowDogWax

Oldman said:


> Self righteous judgemental ivory tower pompous poster here.
> 
> "tree wells account for 20% of ski/board deaths!! what the actual fuck!?! Avalanches have one cracking PR firm, cos I knew nothing really about tree well deaths until now. Word needs to get out more"
> 
> "- Yeah I got all the avy gear and know how to use it.":blahblah:
> 
> Am I missing something here? If you have all the gear and know how to use it, you would have known about an Avalung. You also would have known about Tree Wells.
> 
> Just an little observation...... back to my tower I go.


The single biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place.”
― George Bernard Shaw I'm with you on this Oldman




:computer1:


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## SkullAndXbones

i wasn't worried about dying during my trip out west this year until i opened this thread. thanks.

hey rogue, you gonna dig me out if i fall in a tree well?


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## SnowDogWax

SkullAndXbones said:


> i wasn't worried about dying during my trip out west this year until i opened this thread. thanks.
> 
> hey rogue, you gonna dig me out if i fall in a tree well?







:laughat2::laughat2::jumping1:


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## wrathfuldeity

chomps1211 said:


> "....clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right! Here I am, Stuck in the middle of the crew!!" :wink:


moi also...or should be...having the local terrain guy go first...they will know where there are good stops or leap frog places (safety, visible both to the next rider and to see the next line and steep enough to get going again)...so the rest just follow the general line and not veer too far off. And clean up guy....hopefully has the skills, sense to help out the weakling and save both their asses if needed.



deagol said:


> I know Killclimbz uses a float pack (avalanche air bag), but I've never seen him set it off.
> 
> the young guy I knew of (didn't know him, but knew his parents) who died at Telluride was not even remotely a newbie, so that is pretty good evidence to me that getting caught in a tree well can happen to anyone.


Got a float 22 but don't think I'd use it in a tree well.
Idk if float pack will help in a tree well....except to make a person more visible or create an air space. But it could cause other problems of more snow falling in or limiting range of wiggle room to self-extract. 



SnowDogWax said:


> The single biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place.”
> ― George Bernard Shaw I'm with you on this Oldman
> :computer1:


That was the big issue in the avy course...communication about the plan, about doubts/concerns, sharing skills and pointing out hazard and routes and then communication when dropping the line.


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## 5forty

Oldman, please grow up. You haven't contributed anything to this thread. You already said you have no experience or interest in riding side-country, so I don't know why you're still here, unless you're getting some strange kick out of making a first-time forum user asking for honest advice feel unwelcome by persistently antagonising them about semantics. On page 1 you said you were off, yet you keep coming back. It's all very strange behaviour and reminds me why I don't hang around on internet forums. 

Thanks everyone else for the positive advice and respect.


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## mojo maestro

Oooooh snap............5forty just dropped the mic.


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## Deacon

I remember the first time i rode trees. I only hit three. Only the first one was on purpose. It was just a little 1 1/2" sapling, i just lowered my shoulder and figured i'd run it right over. Bruised shoulder acquired, lesson learned. Trees don't play... respect them, don't fear them.


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## sabatoa

Deacon said:


> I remember the first time i rode trees. I only hit three. Only the first one was on purpose. It was just a little 1 1/2" sapling, i just lowered my shoulder and figured i'd run it right over. Bruised shoulder acquired, lesson learned. Trees don't play... respect them, don't fear them.


Those little fuckers are tougher than you think. I disrespected a tree once. Just once.


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## mojo maestro

Trees should be hugged.......not feared.


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## deagol

I am glad there are trees in the mountains... without them, it would be a windswept mess. Doesn't mean I am not afraid of colliding with them or being trapped by them, though..


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## chomps1211

Deacon said:


> I remember the first time i rode trees. I only hit three. Only the first one was on purpose. It was just a little 1 1/2" sapling, i just lowered my shoulder and figured i'd run it right over. Bruised shoulder acquired, lesson learned. Trees don't play... respect them, don't fear them.





sabatoa said:


> Those little fuckers are tougher than you think. I disrespected a tree once. Just once.


I discovered I have a "BAD" habit of reaching out to grab them when I find myself somewhat out of control!!!  :surprise:

Nothing like getting "whipped" around and slung out of your line at 90º+ and launched into the neighboring tree! :lol:



mojo maestro said:


> Trees should be hugged.......not feared.


_Yeah,..!! But *not* at speed!!!_ _That_ dint work well for me either!!! :laugh:


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## neni

sabatoa said:


> Those little fuckers are tougher than you think. I disrespected a tree once. Just once.


RAmen.
:dizzy:


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## trapper

I T-boned one with my board a couple years ago. Hit a mogul wrong and made the mistake of looking at the tree immediately downhill from it. Sprained my ankle and it hurt like a bitch for a couple weeks.


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## deagol

in the days before I wore a helmet.... I hit a tree branch with my head once (I did have a hat on). The tree branch won... :dizzy:


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## chomps1211

…Gotta watch out for little Bastards like these too!!!:facepalm1:


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## Argo

chomps1211 said:


> …Gotta watch out for little Bastards like these too!!!:facepalm1:
> View attachment 80018


We had a guy come in a couple years ago that hit one of those under the snow after a jump. He had about 8" of stick that was about 2" thick stuck in his glute. This dude actually rode two more lifts and took his moped home before he figured out he had a stick in his ass. Said he was with a chick and didnt want to give up to pursuit. lol, that is how bad the odds are in a resort town!!


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## neni

chomps1211 said:


> …Gotta watch out for little Bastards like these too!!!:facepalm1:
> View attachment 80018


Fencee poles and barbed wire if riding in the Alps


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## chomps1211

Argo said:


> We had a guy come in a couple years ago that hit one of those under the snow after a jump. He had about 8" of stick that was about 2" thick stuck in his glute. This dude actually rode two more lifts and took his moped home before he figured out he had a stick in his ass. Said he was with a chick and didnt want to give up to pursuit. lol, that is how bad the odds are in a resort town!!


*Jeebuz!!* :eyetwitch2: LoL!! Tha's nuts! 

I knew when I saw what had tripped me that I was lucky not to have fallen on that thing back or chest first!! I didn't even _consider_ the possibility of gettin' one shoved up my butt!!  :laugh:

Thanks for yet _another_ thing for me to worry about! :lol: 




By the by Argo,… How's life in the great "Pacific North West" treatin' ya!


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## Argo

good, riding in the mornings as many days as possible. 6 days now on the hill, unfortunately the pow days that were had here were only on the bunny hill they opened up early season. Today was a powder day but it was super wet and started raining so i rode for an hour and bailed. Still nice to ride, conditions dont really disapoint me unless there is no snow entirely.


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## deagol

chomps1211 said:


> …Gotta watch out for little Bastards like these too!!!:facepalm1:
> View attachment 80018


those things are terrifying..


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## Tubby Beaver

chomps1211 said:


> I discovered I have a "BAD" habit of reaching out to grab them when I find myself somewhat out of control!!!  :surprise:
> 
> Nothing like getting "whipped" around and slung out of your line at 90º+ and launched into the neighboring tree! :lol:


I also have this problem.......like my arms are some sort of ABS brakes for trees :surprise: 

I got a helmet for the first time last season and of course it is better but I find myself taking a much riskier line through close trees.....just hunkering down and pushing through.......I ain't the wee stumpy guy from He-Man!! Surefire way to a broken neck, I gotta cut that shit out!


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## SnowDogWax

Argo said:


> good, riding in the mornings as many days as possible. 6 days now on the hill, unfortunately the pow days that were had here were only on the bunny hill they opened up early season. Today was a powder day but it was super wet and started raining so i rode for an hour and bailed. Still nice to ride, conditions dont really disapoint me unless there is no snow entirely.


Sounds like your missing Vail :snowplow:





:snowboard1:


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## Argo

Not really, we do miss friends but mountains are mountains. There are good days and bad days at all of them. Realistically though the season is 6 or more weeks longer here than in Vail and this is a "real" city that we get to live in now. Living in Disney World is cool and all for a while but it get old...


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## nutmegchoi

I got stuck in deep snow couple times and I was alone, too.
Never realize how hard it is to dig out yourself until you get stuck.
After those experiences, I only go into trees where I see clearly paths. :embarrased1:


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## JTCarver

Trees hurt when they jump out and smack you. I had one pull a stealth ambush on me today. Fortunately, nothing broken, just a dinosaur size egg on my leg. Nothing keeps the confidence in check like a good smack down.


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## JDA

I always like to go with my mate who skis so he can pull me out when I get buried in deep pow


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## ridinbend

nutmegchoi said:


> I got stuck in deep snow couple times and I was alone, too.
> Never realize how hard it is to dig out yourself until you get stuck.
> After those experiences, I only go into trees where I see clearly paths. :embarrased1:


Digging yourself out is one thing, but then trying to get properly balanced on top of your board to strap in without an inch of snow under your boot is another thing. Good times.


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## nutmegchoi

ridinbend said:


> Digging yourself out is one thing, but then trying to get properly balanced on top of your board to strap in without an inch of snow under your boot is another thing. Good times.


I couldn't do it in the trees.
I had to use my board to put my hands down and belly/crawl out.
It took me 40 mins to get out of that mess and another 5-10 mins to gather myself together.
At first it was funny, then I realized how deep the snow was (all fresh 44" were there) and it wasn't funny anymore.
In blizzard, near whiteout and no one to be seen.
I got scared, nervous and then pissed off.
I was done after that.


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## SnowDogWax

Dupraz D1 is the answer to most big pow problems. 44" near whiteout conditions only speed and skill. Even with my Dupraz I would not venture into trees. Glade your not hurt...


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## nutmegchoi

SnowDogWax said:


> Dupraz D1 is the answer to most big pow problems. 44" near whiteout conditions only speed and skill. Even with my Dupraz I would not venture into trees. Glade your not hurt...


Yeah, I couldn't do it with my NS Aura.
Luckily, I didn't make it too deep in the tress.
Probably about 30 feet in at the most.
I just sunk.


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## mojo maestro

Trees equate to death or worse......by all means....stay away. Stick to the groomers if you lack the fortitude. Being afraid of the "trees" is like being afraid of the dark.


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## JTCarver

The moment you venture into the trees, you're accepting elevated risk and greatly reduced margins for error whether you are conscious of it or not. A healthy dose of fear keeps the ego in check.


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## gmore10

Never ridden tight trees on a board and never will. Hit one on a dirt bike going 30 and shattered my shoulder. Trees are assholes.... play stupid games win stupid prizes. Also hit one in my truck doing 60 and cost me 3 knee surgeries and somehow im still alive again trees are assholes.


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## mojo maestro

gmore10 said:


> Never ridden tight trees on a board and never will. Hit one on a dirt bike going 30 and shattered my shoulder. Trees are assholes.... play stupid games win stupid prizes. Also hit one in my truck doing 60 and cost me 3 knee surgeries and somehow im still alive again trees are assholes.


Not sure about assholes......but it sounds like at least one dumbass was involved.


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## gmore10

Got that right and I'll never be that dumbass again. Young, dumb and I thought I was invincible.


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