# Not enough adjustment in Burton bindings?



## Wiredsport (Sep 16, 2009)

timon92 said:


> NS Maverix 157 (254mm waist)
> Burton Diode Re-Flex M
> Deeluxe Empire 280mm
> 
> 18/-9* angles, bindings mounted all the way to backside, overhang on toeside is still massive, about twice as big as on backside. Any chance to solve it in other way than buying Flux?


Hi timon,

Could you post up some pics of your setup with your booths tightly laced and tightly strapped into the bindings? Also please post up your barefoot measurements. The end goal will be centering your foot on the board (not the boots or bindings). 

STOKED!


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## timon92 (Sep 4, 2017)

How can I do this if I don't have permission to use links in my posts?


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## timon92 (Sep 4, 2017)

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B54-6NWwnqlrQXpIN3FJbTJGQTA

Ok, now I'm able to do it. My foot is 270mm


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## Wiredsport (Sep 16, 2009)

timon92 said:


> https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B54-6NWwnqlrQXpIN3FJbTJGQTA
> 
> Ok, now I'm able to do it. My foot is 270mm


Thanks for those images. 270 mm is a size 9 in snowboard boots. The 280 that you mentioned above for your Deeluxe boots is a size 10 (assuming that 280 was the Mondopoint boot size). Kindly confirm that.


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## timon92 (Sep 4, 2017)

Boots were carefully chosen and heat molded. I already rode them and they are perfect. 275 were too small and cramped my feet


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## Wiredsport (Sep 16, 2009)

timon92 said:


> Boots were carefully chosen and heat molded. I already rode them and they are perfect. 275 were too small and cramped my feet


Hi Timon,

I understand. Based on your measurement above your bare foot is 270. Regardless of the boot size that you choose, the board will only respond to your actual barefoot measurement. Go ahead and snap images of your bare feet (centered edge to edge) on the board at your actual stance width and angles without bindings mounted. This will show you your actual barefoot overhang. In terms of binding adjustment please also post pictures of the mounting discs as you currently have them mounted to the board.


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## SGboarder (Jun 24, 2012)

Wrong thread title: Instead of 'Not enough adjustment in Burton bindings?' it should be 'Bought boots one full size too large' (could also have been 'Bought bindings too small for my boots' but based on the above the boots are definitely the problem).


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## Nivek (Jan 24, 2008)

Sizing aside your issue is that Deeluxe have massive footprints. A 10 is more like an 11. So then the hard decision. If you get a large now, they'll fit. If/when you get new boots and if you don't upsize the larges will be too big.

Your call.


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## timon92 (Sep 4, 2017)

Wiredsport said:


> Hi Timon,
> 
> I understand. Based on your measurement above your bare foot is 270. Regardless of the boot size that you choose, the board will only respond to your actual barefoot measurement. Go ahead and snap images of your bare feet (centered edge to edge) on the board at your actual stance width and angles without bindings mounted. This will show you your actual barefoot overhang. In terms of binding adjustment please also post pictures of the mounting discs as you currently have them mounted to the board.


Photos as requested https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0B54-6NWwnqlrQXpIN3FJbTJGQTA



SGboarder said:


> Wrong thread title: Instead of 'Not enough adjustment in Burton bindings?' it should be 'Bought boots one full size too large' (could also have been 'Bought bindings too small for my boots' but based on the above the boots are definitely the problem).


As I wrote before, boots aren't too large. I had access to all sizes (270, 275 and 280) and the last one was the only one that was only touching my toes without pushing it back with my knees bent. My UPZ are the same size and smaller didn't fit too.

As for bindings, Burton states that their M sized bindings fit up to 290mm MP boots so the choice seems to be right. When I use medium Flux with this board and boots there is no such problem.


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## timon92 (Sep 4, 2017)

Nivek said:


> Sizing aside your issue is that Deeluxe have massive footprints. A 10 is more like an 11. So then the hard decision. If you get a large now, they'll fit. If/when you get new boots and if you don't upsize the larges will be too big.
> 
> Your call.


I'd rather change bindings than boots, I tried lot of different companies and Deeluxe is the one that fits my feet best. I suppose I'll go for another pair of Flux


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## Wiredsport (Sep 16, 2009)

Hi timon,

Thanks for those additional images. Before you take any further steps I would highly suggest that you consider these factors as they can have a big impact on performance.


Your stance-adjusted foot length is at/smaller than the width of the board at the inserts you are using (below). That is critical. You will want to make sure that your foot is very well centered on the board. Having extra boot length makes this visually tricky as the tendency will be to center the boot. In your case a centered boot will lead to an off center foot. Your bindings are the correct size. I would highly suggest that you not change those.

Your images (in socks) show a foot measurement of 26.7 cm. You are losing ~ 1 cm to stance angle which leaves you with an adjusted 25.7 cm foot length. The board is ~ 26.3 cm wide where you have it mounted (you can confirm that by measuring straight across the base. That is not ideal for leverage. If you do make that choice, centering becomes even more critical than for riders who will have barefoot overhang (suggested).

Boots - I won't push you here at all but out of interest I would like to know your foot width measurements. 

For width please place the inside (medial side) of your bare foot against a wall. Please then measure from the wall out to the widest point on the lateral (outside) of your foot.


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## Nivek (Jan 24, 2008)

timon92 said:


> I'd rather change bindings than boots, I tried lot of different companies and Deeluxe is the one that fits my feet best. I suppose I'll go for another pair of Flux


When Burton says they fit to 11 they mean the inside of the boot. They're 11 fits. That's said, that's on the max size. You're better off in a large even in a Burton 11. Footprint size is more important than fit size for binding fit. And the Deeluxes are huge.


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## MMSlasher (Mar 18, 2016)

Since no one has said it yet, and I may have missed it, but I would hate to strap in with that set ups size. Looks like the ladders only have 2-3 teeth exposed, so it seems like its going to be a struggle everytime you strap in.


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## Rip154 (Sep 23, 2017)

I agree with title.

You are around the worst fitting size for Burton bindings, counting in the Deeluxe part. So yes, medium bindings are to small, large bindings are to big. This is pretty much the same regardless of board width, and where Burton bindings have a weakness in adjustability. Getting an offset disc will help you, maybe enough to push medium bindings far enough back, or large bindings far enough forward. I found bindings with adjustable heelcups to fit better at this shoesize.


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## SGboarder (Jun 24, 2012)

timon92 said:


> Photos as requested https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0B54-6NWwnqlrQXpIN3FJbTJGQTA
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You wrote it before and you were wrong back then - and you still are. "only touching my toes without pushing it back with my knees bent" means that the boots are *far* too large for your foot length. 
Based on your initial post you should have been in a US9, but based on the picture even that might be too long: 267 with sock points to a US8.5 or even smaller.


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## timon92 (Sep 4, 2017)

So basically you're telling me that I should change my boots that are comfortable and hold my heels perfectly to boots that give me pain the moment I put them on? Can't see the point


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## Nivek (Jan 24, 2008)

The unfortunate thing with snowboard boots is the difference between fits good and is too big isn't very large. Small enough that a super comfy boot in store can easily get too big after breakin. So more often than not we bootfiters will do pur best to put people in the smallest boot we can. Most heat foldable liners can be forced into being about 3/4 size bigger. Then real footbeds can gain about another 1/8 of a size. The best we can do to make them smaller is about 1/8 of a size. So nearly a full size to grow, but nearly no room to shrink. The other unfortunate thing is there are fewer and fewer fitters that understand all this and even fewer that try very hard to educate people. 

Now I don't have much of any experience with Deeluxe other than that they're footprints are huge. So for instance K2s with Endo Fit shells all genuinely fit a half size big, everyone downsizes extra 8n them. So it very well could be that Deeluxe fit really small and a 10 really fits like a 9.

For fit, pull the footbed out and if it has any sort of 3d shape to the heel take your sock off and center your heel on the footbeds heelpocket. How much if any footbed can you see past your toes? Or how much toe hangs over the footbeds? This will help us see what you foot might be doing in the boot.


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## Wiredsport (Sep 16, 2009)

timon92 said:


> So basically you're telling me that I should change my boots that are comfortable and hold my heels perfectly to boots that give me pain the moment I put them on? Can't see the point


Hi Timon,

The barefoot size range for a Mondo 270 (size 9) boot is 26.6 cm to 27.0 cm. Your 26.7 cm foot is in the middle of this range. That is your foot measurement regardless of the boot size that you will choose to wear. You may have up-sized boots do to extra foot width or another preference but this does not change the actuality of your foot length. We still need to center your foot (not the boot or the binding) on the board.

The newer Deeluxe Empires have "footprint reduction" and are in line with most current boots. Even so, when you are significantly shorter than the actual Mondo size of the boot you are wearing, the foot will not start or remain centered within the boot. That needs to be adjusted for in the bindings position so that your foot remains as centered as possible. 

I don't want to push you at all. We are here to help only. With a mid (26.7 cm) size 9 foot, you have the correct size bindings (the range is 8-11). That is the one piece of your gear that is actually ideally sized and I would encourage you not to change it. If you would like to post up some foot width measurements as above we can give you some better insight into your overall situation and make some suggestions if requested.


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## timon92 (Sep 4, 2017)

Width is 100mm


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## neni (Dec 24, 2012)

timon92 said:


> So basically you're telling me that I should change my boots that are comfortable and hold my heels perfectly to boots that give me pain the moment I put them on? Can't see the point


Liners break in. Significantly. That impression of fit will be gone after few days riding. My "well" fitting Deeluxe, (which I bought too large with the same thoughts in head as you now have), became loose around the heel and large around toebox after few days and I had to get j bars and insoles to keep my feet in place in that too big boot which felt like a comfy fitting boot when new. 

World won't stop to turn if one's in too big boots as long as you can get a decent fit and won't try to overtighten them to get foot hold in a loose boot. I'm getting the next half size too big pair right now cos they're 1/4 the price. I can make them fit well enough with soles and bars. 
BUT they also fit my bindings. I wouldn't get oversized boots which would then force me to buy new oversized bindings.


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## Wiredsport (Sep 16, 2009)

timon92 said:


> Width is 100mm


Hi Timon,

That is a common reason why riders go too long in boots. 100 mm at size 9 is an E width. To get that width in a "standard" D width boot you need to upsize to size 10 as below (not suggested) which you have done. The suggested way is to get a boot that matches both width and length. In your case that would be the Salomon Wide boots which are designed for E width.


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## timon92 (Sep 4, 2017)

I can buy Burtons Ruler Wide 42 (9US) or Salomon Dialogue Wide in the same size cheap, should I go for it?


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## Deacon (Mar 2, 2013)

timon92 said:


> I can buy Burtons Ruler Wide 42 (9US) or Salomon Dialogue Wide in the same size cheap, should I go for it?


The salomons. The rulers are a “eee” width.


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## timon92 (Sep 4, 2017)

I'm not really fan of quality of Salomons recent models, rewievs seem to prove that that I'm no wrong. I'm gonna order Rulers and see what happens since reviews say that they are not that wide. I can always return them and they also seem to have much shorter footprint than Salomon what seems crucial in my case. 

Thank you all guys for input and help, I really appreciate it. Sorry for being so stubborn, I didn't know about different widths of boots.


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## Phedder (Sep 13, 2014)

timon92 said:


> I can always return them and they also seem to have much shorter footprint than Salomon what seems crucial in my case.


If the rulers do end up being too wide and you don't want to try Salomon, give Ride or K2 a try. Their intuition liners allow a bit more width than most other models I've tried. I'm 278mm long and 107mm wide and have gotten myself into 9.5 Ride Fuses very comfortably after heat molding, though I should be in a 10 based on foot length.


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## Nivek (Jan 24, 2008)

Wiredsport said:


> Hi Timon,
> 
> That is a common reason why riders go too long in boots. 100 mm at size 9 is an E width. To get that width in a "standard" D width boot you need to upsize to size 10 as below (not suggested) which you have done. The suggested way is to get a boot that matches both width and length. In your case that would be the Salomon Wide boots which are designed for E width.


Alright. No. I don't know where this chart is coming from but it's clearly not relevant to ski or snowboard boots. The average foot widths are C and D. I think 90% of people you internet fit get told they need an E or EE. Now out of all the ski and snowboard boots I fit in person probably 2% measure to an E. Somethings amiss. Also consider the most popular men's ski boots are 27 and 100mm lasts. And those people sure as shit aren't E when I measure them. E starts at like 106 in those sizes. 



timon92 said:


> I can buy Burtons Ruler Wide 42 (9US) or Salomon Dialogue Wide in the same size cheap, should I go for it?


Hell no. You are an average width foot if youre a 9 and 100mm wide. The likely issue was the Deeluxe toebox just didn't really match your foot well and you upsized to accomodate. If you feel like you want something a bit roomier in the toes go look at K2, some of the Rides and a few different Salomons.


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## timon92 (Sep 4, 2017)

I tried Ride, Nitro, Salomon, Burton and Flux and in every case I needed 280mm liner. I also tried Northwave but they were too narrow even in 285 size. I already ordered Burtons so I'll be able to tell you more when I try it.

Regarding the table - 100mmm is actually 3.93' so it's still D - the regular size.


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## SGboarder (Jun 24, 2012)

timon92 said:


> So basically you're telling me that I should change my boots that are comfortable and hold my heels perfectly to boots that give me pain the moment I put them on? Can't see the point


Yes I'm, because what you are describing above (and consistent with your measurement) indicates a boot that is significantly too large/long. Read wiredsport's thread on bootfitting to learn what proper boot fit is and get correctly sized boots.


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## Wiredsport (Sep 16, 2009)

Nivek said:


> Alright. No. I don't know where this chart is coming from but it's clearly not relevant to ski or snowboard boots. The average foot widths are C and D. I think 90% of people you internet fit get told they need an E or EE. Now out of all the ski and snowboard boots I fit in person probably 2% measure to an E. Somethings amiss. Also consider the most popular men's ski boots are 27 and 100mm lasts. And those people sure as shit aren't E when I measure them. E starts at like 106 in those sizes.


Hi Nivek,

As an example Lange notes a "last" width of 92mm for size 8.5 and a "last" width of 100 mm for Wide boots for their performance boots Race | Lange. That corresponds with the _foot width_ on the chart that I typically post. As you slip to more casual boots in their lineup, you can watch the associated "last" width go up. All Mountain free | Lange . Now the "normal" width boots note the same "last" width as the "Wide" that was used in the performance boot. They are simply higher and lower performance width fit options for the same width foot. So, when you are fitting a skier into a "normal" width mid range boot, you are actually fitting them into the same exact width as a "Wide" fit high performance boot .

Ski boots can (to a certain degree) get away with what in many cases amounts to a very relaxed (or sloppy) fit where snowboard boots cannot because the ski boot has a rigid exoskeleton that can then be clamped down to create structure even around a very comfort oriented fit. Snowboarders need to rely much more heavily on correct fit because we do not wear 4 lbs of plastic around each foot to clamp everything in place .

I have written this many times before (most are likely bored of me going on about it ) but width is essentially avoided or very poorly managed by the snowsports industry.

The Mondopoint standard is very specific (and awesome!) in how it deals with width. It measures foot width only (not the last or any part of the boot) in one simple line with the measurement taken in mm. The design is that all mondopoint footwear would have both a length and a width measurement in mm for the foot that it was designed to fit. For example a boot may be 290/100. That, of course is not done by any snowboard boot company and it is (increasingly) poorly used by ski boot companies.

In fact, out of all of the boots on the market, only 4 models even mention width at all! Those four models simply label the boots "Wide". Big help right? If you dig a little deeper you can find that the Burton Ruler Wide is designed for EEE and the 3 Salomon boots are designed for E width. But those letter widths are associated with the Brannock (not Mondopoint) standard that is used for shoe sizing. This leaves us with a weird mix of two standards. To solve this we do need to take some initiative and find measurements that work as a Rosetta stone for width.


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## Wiredsport (Sep 16, 2009)

timon92 said:


> I tried Ride, Nitro, Salomon, Burton and Flux and in every case I needed 280mm liner. I also tried Northwave but they were too narrow even in 285 size. I already ordered Burtons so I'll be able to tell you more when I try it.
> 
> Regarding the table - 100mmm is actually 3.93' so it's still D - the regular size.


Hi Timon,

Anything over 3.9 at size 9 would fall into the E range Because the total range for a half size is 5 mm even a small bit counts . 

The Burton Ruler Wide is EEE and I would not suggest that. Width matters as much as length.


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## timon92 (Sep 4, 2017)

I found out something today - when I wear just a liner, it is obviously too big for me. But when I put it inside boot's shell, it gets squished and it's size is somehow being reduced


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## timmytard (Mar 19, 2009)

timon92 said:


> So basically you're telling me that I should change my boots that are comfortable and hold my heels perfectly to boots that give me pain the moment I put them on? Can't see the point


Yup, that's what everyone's telling you.

YOU DON'T EVER BUY BOOTS THAT FIT PERFECT RIGHT OUT OF THE BOX.

Cause that's the only day they are ever going to fit like that.

Every single day after that, they will fit worse & worse.

Picture having sex with a jar of mayonnaise :surprise:

That's how sloppy they will fit in just a short time.

You want them to be TOO tight out of the box.
Then when you do break them in. 
They'll fit perfect.

Don't be the guy fucking the jar of mayonnaise.
Nobody likes that weirdo haha.


TT


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## timon92 (Sep 4, 2017)

How does thermoforming affect breaking in?


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## timmytard (Mar 19, 2009)

Wiredsport said:


> Hi Timon,
> 
> Anything over 3.9 at size 9 would fall into the E range Because the total range for a half size is 5 mm even a small bit counts .
> 
> The Burton Ruler Wide is EEE and I would not suggest that. Width matters as much as length.


That's what she said
Bwa ha ha ha 


TT


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## Wiredsport (Sep 16, 2009)

timon92 said:


> How does thermoforming affect breaking in?


Heat fit should be done first thing. Break in will occur from riding. The heat fit uses your unique foot shape to form the heated liner. The heated material is displaced and moved from the positive to negative areas of your foot. Break in in occurs during riding and involves the initial stretching and wear of all boot materials.

Here are some tips on heat fit (thermoforming) http://www.snowboardingforum.com/boots/225057-heat-fit-faq-love-your-feet.html.


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## timon92 (Sep 4, 2017)

I just got 270mm Wide Rulers - the fit is perfect. There is no excessive room on sides of my foot and footprint is at least inch smaller than in Deeluxes. Now there is one more problem left - I have also pair of new Deeluxe Vicious TFP boots (280mm of course) for my BX setup that will be used rarely. Should I sell them and look for another pair of wides or just keep them and hope that they will not break in very fast?


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## basser (Sep 18, 2015)

If they aren't the right fit I would sell them.

Also, why do you want two pairs?


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## timon92 (Sep 4, 2017)

Rulers are soft and I want stiff boots for my Volkl Coal Race with Flux XF. Actually I also ordered 265mm Rulers to try them.


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## neni (Dec 24, 2012)

timon92 said:


> I just got 270mm Wide Rulers - the fit is perfect. There is no excessive room on sides of my foot and footprint is at least inch smaller than in Deeluxes. Now there is one more problem left - I have also pair of new Deeluxe Vicious TFP boots (280mm of course) for my BX setup that will be used rarely. Should I sell them and look for another pair of wides or just keep them and hope that they will not break in very fast?


If those boots fit the existing bindings and you want to keep them, you could give an insole which fit your footbed well a try. They keep ones foot in place, avoid slipping once the liner pack out.


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