# Question about turning...



## snowangel99 (Mar 11, 2016)

I see a lot of people turning on the hill with a very serious bend in the back ankle. It is hard to explain but its almost like they are swishing their back ankle side to side in a quick motion, back and forth swish swish swish all the way down. Is that correct?

For example this is the position the person would be in and then they slide their ankle to the other side. So it isn't really a turn. It's more of a swish. I can't think of a different word to explain it but the back leg is really quite bent and its going side to side and the back knee is very close toe the ground. The back leg is doing all the work. Is this proper turning and stance?


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## sabatoa (Jan 18, 2011)

It's considered more of a skidded turn. It's fine, so long as people don't claim it as a carve. It has it's place on the hill, I wouldn't call it improper. It's probably the easiest turn to make.


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## Clayton Bigsby (Oct 23, 2012)

We call that more of a speed check turn, most everyone start out "turning" like this until they get a feel for their edges and start carving. Even after you've taught yourself how to carve you'll still need to throw in the occasional speed check to set up a better approach to a line, avoid people and even speed check or even snow spraying your buddies or SLOW signs


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## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

Yeah, not a very precise way to turn. Most of those people you see going down open runs doing that are able to get away with it because it's all they do - cruise groomers. On wide open runs you can get away with it. When you actually need to go where you need to go in more technical terrain, you're gonna learn the limitations of that type of turning pretty quickly and possibly painfully.


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## wrathfuldeity (Oct 5, 2007)

^ though on the otoh...in some tight technical spots...these speed check turns are about your only survival option besides the heelside slipp'n da slope.


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## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

They have their place, but if that's your only method if turning, you're gonna pay for it sooner or later. Just not as precise nor as quick to react.


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## snowangel99 (Mar 11, 2016)

Good information. Thanks!

Sent from my SM-N910W8 using Tapatalk


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## Sons of Thunder (Mar 24, 2015)

But it would be 'proper' form for deep powder conditions right? I've also found it to be useful for navigating icy moguls where being on edges can feel a little sketchy.

It's definitely not carving though which is what all riders should be aspiring to. When someone tells me they're an awesome rider but when we get on the slopes can only do those skidded turns I just laugh.


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## Kenai (Dec 15, 2013)

@snowangel99 your first post also confuses two things. Serious bend at the back ankle can be perfectly fine even in serious carving. The video below was posted earlier in another thread, but you can see RK's ankle very sharply bent and his knee close to the slope on beautiful carves. On the other hand, from your swish, swish description it sounds like you are describing skidded turns -1:25 to 1:47 in the video below. I wouldn't call those turns improper, but it is less advanced than good carving turns.


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## chomps1211 (Mar 30, 2011)

This is a good one to watch that shows when swinging the board around with that back foot is handy.... These are not speed check or skidded turns tho. More of a "hop turn!" A usefull skill to have. 






Also,... near the end @ 5:40, bottom left corner of the frame shows what can happen if you "boot out" on steep! :blink: :laugh:


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## WasabiCanuck (Apr 29, 2015)

snowangel99 said:


> I see a lot of people turning on the hill with a very serious bend in the back ankle. It is hard to explain but its almost like they are swishing their back ankle side to side in a quick motion, back and forth swish swish swish all the way down. Is that correct?
> 
> For example this is the position the person would be in and then they slide their ankle to the other side. So it isn't really a turn. It's more of a swish. I can't think of a different word to explain it but the back leg is really quite bent and its going side to side and the back knee is very close toe the ground. The back leg is doing all the work. Is this proper turning and stance?


A lot of newer riders rudder their back leg as a way of turning. Some will even counter-rotate upper body as they rotate lower body to get the board around. The ankle flex you refer to could be different things. One thing lots of newer riders do is lean over tail of board overly flexing rear leg while straightening front leg.

This is a phase most of us go through on the road to carving. The skidded turn is better than the rudder and not wrong, we all use it when carving is not possible, slower speed for example. I would never want to use it at higher speed, cuz it is more likely to catch an edge than carving. IMO

I wouldn't worry too much about what others are doing. Only about 10% of the people I see actually know what they are doing, and I'm probably not one of them. Haha.


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## Nocturnal7x (Mar 6, 2015)

Kenai said:


> @snowangel99 your first post also confuses two things. Serious bend at the back ankle can be perfectly fine even in serious carving. The video below was posted earlier in another thread, but you can see RK's ankle very sharply bent and his knee close to the slope on beautiful carves. On the other hand, from your swish, swish description it sounds like you are describing skidded turns -1:25 to 1:47 in the video below. I wouldn't call those turns improper, but it is less advanced than good carving turns.
> 
> https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mvADH_dLb4w


So in this video he recommends not staying square to the board and moving your legs independant of your body. Most videos I watch tell me to keep my back hand over my tail. Is this video just more advanced? (like you suggest about the skidded turns v carving) I am basically the zombie right now.


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## poutanen (Dec 22, 2011)

Here's what CASI (The Canadian Association of Snowboard Instructors) expects for their top level instructors. Not saying this riding is 100% perfect, but it's what they've published to demonstrate the skills of an expert rider.

In some parts of the video, he'll actually do advanced slider turns as a method of speed control, but it's very different from the wiper blade slider turns that most people do.

Key things to look at here: Balance and stance, and which way the riders upper body and arms are moving.


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## t21 (Dec 29, 2010)

I Like watching the CASI videos and somewhat ride like they do and try to emulate their style especially bump runs. Their style of riding to me is agressive but smooth. Is there any good videos from AASI that anyone can point me to? Anyways, the turns that probably OP was inquiring about is skidded turns,but could also be ruddering for a newbie:wink: My grandsons dad rides like that, back leg more bent and swishing left and right to initiate his turns and slowing down.


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## Kenai (Dec 15, 2013)

Nocturnal7x said:


> So in this video he recommends not staying square to the board and moving your legs independant of your body. Most videos I watch tell me to keep my back hand over my tail. Is this video just more advanced? (like you suggest about the skidded turns v carving) I am basically the zombie right now.


I am definitely not the person to be giving you instruction, but I can help a little. See how in both the videos there is a big difference between the zombie and the advanced rider. Strong dynamic riding requires, or at least allows, some movement of the upper body. The difference is that the movement is not the wild cracking the whip (dogshit) or swinging the arms to create rotation of the lower body to turn (dogshit). Moving your arms a little while you shift your weight in a turn is not bad. You can see in Pout's video that the instructor moves his arms some - a bit back on heel side, a bit forward on the side, he reaches sometimes, catches his balance a couple times to maintain his carve. RK's video is similar in how he moves his arms around just a bit. The difference is that the upper body movement is not being used to generate the turn. When RK talks about a silent upper body I don't think he actually means zero movement, though I'm sure he could do it, he means not using the arms and shoulders to essentially force the lower body into the turn.


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## speedjason (May 2, 2013)

poutanen said:


> Here's what CASI (The Canadian Association of Snowboard Instructors) expects for their top level instructors. Not saying this riding is 100% perfect, but it's what they've published to demonstrate the skills of an expert rider.
> 
> In some parts of the video, he'll actually do advanced slider turns as a method of speed control, but it's very different from the wiper blade slider turns that most people do.
> 
> ...


That is very nice video showing how being dynamic can really help switching edges and pressuring the board.
I dream snow conditions like that.


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## deagol (Mar 26, 2014)

Nocturnal7x said:


> So in this video he recommends not staying square to the board and moving your legs independant of your body. Most videos I watch tell me to keep my back hand over my tail. Is this video just more advanced? (like you suggest about the skidded turns v carving) I am basically the zombie right now.


I've seen videos that tell you to keep your back hand over the tail as well. My guess is that may somewhat be determined by your stance (but this is only my guess). I don't ride that way and I can carve fairly well, IMO, with a forward stance (back foot at maybe +15 ??). Maybe having duckfoot stance would make it a better body position to have your back hand over the tail ??


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## snowangel99 (Mar 11, 2016)

Good videos thanks for the links. As I progress I am noticing a lot of similarities to skiing :surprise: as far as transfer of weight and rhythm while turning.


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## poutanen (Dec 22, 2011)

speedjason said:


> That is very nice video showing how being dynamic can really help switching edges and pressuring the board.
> I dream snow conditions like that.


Yeah, I've watched their 4 levels of videos a few times. Great tool for seeing the difference between beginner, intermediate, and advanced riding!



snowangel99 said:


> Good videos thanks for the links. As I progress I am noticing a lot of similarities to skiing :surprise: as far as transfer of weight and rhythm while turning.


I've been trained (however briefly) to evaluate both skiing and snowboarding. We rate people on the same building blocks, the technique is just different for each.

Balance and stance is step one for both. Weight centred over the board/skis, athletic stance. Not being in the backseat.

The second step looks at turn initiation, and that's where it differs. They want to see a slight bit of upper body rotation to initiate a snowboard turn (instead of counter rotation), whereas on skis they want to see the ski tips/feet initiate the turn, while hiving the upper body square to downhill.

Angulation is similar. Upper body should stay fairly vertical, while the legs and bent knees do most of the angulation for you. High edge angles are a good thing.

I feel like the snowboarding learning curve is sort of a double bump: Tough for the first few days until you "get it", then it's relatively easy progression to get up to a decent level of riding, then it's tough to really master the sport.

I think skiing has a flatter learning curve. Right from day one you can stand on the skis and go down a basic run. But then I think it's harder to go from a beginner skier to an advanced skier. I think becoming an expert is slightly easier on skis than on a board.

Just my $0.02 of course!


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## WasabiCanuck (Apr 29, 2015)

snowangel99 said:


> Good videos thanks for the links. As I progress I am noticing a lot of similarities to skiing :surprise: as far as transfer of weight and rhythm while turning.


There is definitely a rhythm to carving. It feels so good when you are in that groove. I can get there on blues but not blacks yet, I'm still scared of the speed I get on blacks. I'm just trying to survive blacks but I really feel comfortable on blues. The tiny prairie hill I go to doesn't have much for black runs but they have a few nice blues, so it is tough to practice technique for blacks. 

snowangel99, just keep working on edge pressure in the turns. That is the difference between skidding and carving, like everything else it takes practice.


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