# Torsional twist and short radius turns



## seriouscat (Jan 23, 2012)

I think he's talking about super tight dynamic skids. Which involves a lot of flex/extending, anticipatory alignment, and flexing feet in independent directions for the extra bit of agility. 

I'd just practice the basic dynamic turns first before trying all of that. It takes a lot of things going at once and you don't really have time to think about it. It will come eventually. Heck I been working all of it into smooth movements from beginning the season and my zip line thru moguls still looks like crap. :laugh:


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## cootcraig (Feb 5, 2013)

seriouscat said:


> I'd just practice the basic dynamic turns first before trying all of that. It takes a lot of things going at once and you don't really have time to think about it. It will come eventually.


I have found technique cues from both McNab and Snowolf to be helpful already. Every time out, I have some techniques in mind to try - they might click or they might not. I also take runs just relaxing, enjoying myself and consolidating my skills.


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## cootcraig (Feb 5, 2013)

Snowolf said:


> What specifically are you looking for?
> 
> In general, there are four board performance concepts that we care about as riders; they are Twist, Tilt, Pivot and Pressure. ...
> 
> ...


I've been working on twist in 2 situations.

1) Initiating edge change. My cues have been twisting the leading foot to the new edge, with the trailing foot opposing the twist and then following to the tilt.

2) Directional control on traversing. My cue has been twisting the trailing foot to adjust direction with the leading foot opposing the twist to hold the desired edge tilt to hold the traverse.

Does that sound right?

I'm wanting advice on how to control turn radius. It was prompted by your post reviewing the NS Raptor and how twist can be used to initiate short radius turns.

My last time on the hill I was moving my knees together and the turn radius was reducing. I've never hear of this effect, but was going to try this some more.


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## t21 (Dec 29, 2010)

cootcraig said:


> I've been working on twist in 2 situations.
> 
> 1) Initiating edge change. My cues have been twisting the leading foot to the new edge, with the trailing foot opposing the twist and then following to the tilt.
> 
> ...


is there a chance you can find a video of what you are asking? i'm curious too on what your saying but i'm more better at visual that written details:dunno:


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## cootcraig (Feb 5, 2013)

Snowolf said:


> That is it essentially. Don`t think of the back foot as "opposing"
> so much as "lagging behind". If coming out of a turn or a traverse on
> edge and transitioning to a new edge, then at first, yes the rear foot
> is opposing the new twist because it it still maintaining pressure on
> ...


"lagging behind" - That is helpful, particularly as I'm working on timing, speeding up and
building the muscle memory. I'm also working on pressure transfer to leading
foot and then back foot.



Snowolf said:


> Always do the actuall steering with the front foot. In a traverse,
> I will generally maintain fairly even uphill edge pressure with the
> back foot and either increase or descrease uphill edge pressure with
> the front foot as neede to steer.


I will try it this way. The first run I've been lapping has a longish
traverse across the fall line. The first day it was busy and I was
having trouble, falling and being a hazard. I've improved, but still not
comfortable.



Snowolf said:


> It`s the dynamic skidded turn. In order to really get these dynamic
> so that you can really control speed through turn shape, there are
> three components to master; flexion-extension, fore-aft movements and
> upper-lower body separation. You use all three to get a super dynamic
> ...


Very nice, succinct summary. 

I've noticed the most upper-lower separation in 2 situations.
1) On groomed runs, to stay in a narrower corridor. or to slow down
when in traffic.
2) On fresh snow runs, making surfier turns banking more than edging.

Thank you for your help. You are a gentleman and a scholar.


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## MGD81 (Mar 13, 2012)

IMO, I would just concentrate on working on that twist using the front knee. I find that most people that talk about initiating toe turns with their front foot end up locking out their ankle by pushing down too much, which blocks off a solid knee drive into the turn.

Try some toeside garlands, see if you can really flex that front ankle and knee to get back across the hill.

To simplify:

Start a toeside traverse.
Open your hip/shoulders down the hill and let the board go flat.
When pointing down the hill drive your hip and knee into the hill to get back onto toes.

If you have a hard time dont point the board all the way down the hill until you are comfortable with the movement.

When you get it right, you will feel pressure under your front foot AND between the shin and tongue of your boot.

Good luck, keep trucking. :thumbsup:


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## MGD81 (Mar 13, 2012)

Snowolf said:


> I disagree.
> 
> You're using a rotary movement as a primary rather than supportive body movement concept to try to generate twist. This movement primarily generates the board performance known as pivot. Twist is a board performance concept using the flexion and extension of the ankle joint to pressure your edge. trying to use rotary to achieve twist is not as efficient as using the ankle as the primary body movement.
> 
> ...


Actually, I was using a flexion of the knee joint to generate twist throught he board, the rotary movement of the hips is secondary and will usually follow, unless someone is trying to use their feet too much by pressing down on the ball of their foot. 

Overuse of the calf muscles on toe side turn IMO is one of the biggest issues I face on a daily basis with intermediate riders, it mainly causes:
1 An edge initiation too early for the position of the hips over the effective edge.
2 A poor toeside posture (usually broken at the waist) which in turn kills people trying to ride steeps and bumps correctly. 
If we are talking pressure I would take a guess that for most people it should be 75% boots taking the pressure and the last 25 using calf muscles by pressing down for refinement - obviously this changes dependant on setup stiffness/weight/strength.

If anyone doesnt believe me, try making some toeside turns pushing down as hard as you can on the balls of your feet - you can over-analyse all you want, the proof really is in the pudding.

As for rotating the knee on heelside, i agree, but I am talking toeside. I am trying to isolate a movement, not confuse the rider.

Lastly, twist from rotary is by FAR the most powerful method, so powerful infact that you dont have to move your feet at all and twist will occur if your upper body/hips are rotated.

Again, if you dont believe me we can go on the steeps and make some heelside carves. You can use your feet and stay in alignment and I will rotate the shit out of my hips and upper body.


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## Bear5001 (Dec 5, 2012)

*My opinion*

I like what several of you are saying, i do disagree with some as well. I think my advice here will fall somewhere in-between everyone elses. After i write what i would do to try and adjust turn radius, i will respond to several other people on this thread.

I would move back to garlands, this task allows to board to seek the fall line (point downhill), then turn back across the hill staying on the same edge the entire time. If you do several of these in a row it makes the shape of Christmas garlands in the snow. So yes you will only be going one direction over and over again, then you change edges and go the other direction. 

Alright, so how to do garlands properly (or how i do them):
-Keep your shoulder in line with your board for all of this-
Toeside: First start off in a sideslip to find a great toeside stance, do this by bending your knees, allowing your ankles to flex (aka collapse, avoid pushing down on your toes as this will extend your ankles), relax into the shin of your boots, now notice how if you push your hips over your toe edge (like your standing at a urinal) you have plenty of weight on your edge, and as a result have great control, cool, maintain this position. To allow the board to seek the fall line (aka point downhill) roll your knee out towards the nose of your board, and gently lower your heel, (keep your knee bent, or even better bend it more during this part) this will flatten out the board under your front foot and you will pretty quickly point down the fall line. Then when you have reached a desired speed, drive your front knee toward your pinky toe until the board is coming across the hill, then drive both knees into the shins of your boots to slow down. then repeat, til your extremely comfortable with it

Heelside: Start from a stop, or barely moving on your heelside with your board across the hill. To get the board to seek the fall line, relax your front ankle, and add weight to your front foot by flexing your front knee this should also keep your shin in contact with your boot here. wait for the board to point directly down the hill. Then roll your front knee out (towards the nose) and pull up on your front toes, then both toes til your across the hill almost stopped. then repeat, til your extremely comfortable with it

Linking turns: Now that i am sure you understand all of that. To make shorter and shorter radius turns. Exaggerate the main points from above, and speed up the timing. 
So, from toeside to heelside, exaggerate rolling your front knee out (while flexing it to add weight to it) and start pulling up on your front foot toes, as soon as you feel the board start to steer across the fall line pull up on your back toes as well. Make sure to look across the hill here. 
Now from heel to toe, relax (aka flatten out) your front foot, while bending your front knee to add more weight to it, immediately start driving your front knee toward your pinky toe, as the board steers across the hill do the same with your back knee make sure to be looking across (NOT down) hill here

If that works, great have fun. If its still not fast enough, think about making every movement a little more powerful, and make it happen a little faster (imagine the difference between stomping on the gas pedal and slowly depressing it to the floor, it ends at the same place, but it got there faster), now make the next move sooner as well (speeding up the timing). If you know you are doing all of that and you still want it to be faster, add a slight steering with the hip (like theres a light on your hip facing your nose, and you want to steer with it), but do NOT let your shoulders follow (keep them in line), and be sure to only use this with the proper ankle and knee movement i talked about above...

Hope this helps!
-------------------
Responses to others
MGD81: I like alot of what you said, especially about knee steering on toeside. However i do not like to turn the shoulders to get pointed down the fall line. Will it work? Yes, but it will not be as efficient, as fast, or as balanced as it could be, and will cause other problems later on in the turn, and later on in snowboarding

Snowolf: Your knowledge here is also your downfall in my opinion. Everything you said is right on. However i don't think cootcraig on day 5 needs the techie definitions, or big words, or dynamic turns. Your explanations of movements and performances and blending them is amazing, impressive really. I'm just not so sure he will be able to put this mass of knowledge into action. Save the AASI terms for clinics, keep it simpler for lessons. 

Example: I could say to utilize plantarflexion with your rear foot and dorsiflexion with your front foot to fully use twist to initiate a heelside turn, then flex both of your anterior tibialus muscles through the completion of the turn making sure to use more angulation than inclination. But who would that help?


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## Bear5001 (Dec 5, 2012)

*Here*

Just to match the tone put down earlier. Yes lets start a new thread, where we can measure our dicks, because this is no longer helping cootcraig. This is about flexing our brains/muscles, strutting and posturing, in short measuring our dicks... But alright im game, i got a big one

Flexing the knee joint CAN create twist, but only if you ankles, and hips move too. I can flex/extend my knees all day and keep a flat board, if i so choose. If you want to create twist, more is going on. As far as pushing down on your toes on toeside, this is a big problem with alot of riders, not denying that, but it doesn't prove your point about rotary at all. After you mention that you say you are isolating a movement. Great! But you forget to say what movement  and if flexion in the knee is the only one, without moving ankles, or hips, thats not very good advice. Prove it? Well the proof is in the pudding. Stand up from your computer right now (get away from all sharp objects) stand in your snowboard stance, now only bend your knees (NO you cannot flex your ankles, or bend at all at the waist because i am trying to isolate a movement here. You fell over didn't you? you should have beacuse its like doing a wall sit without a wall, you fall. 

Now as far as rotary on steeps, and in bumps... You are cordially invited to come to any mountain, and blow out especially heelside, because your beloved rotary has added too much pressure to the effective edge at a given time, it cannot hold, and throws you to the outside of the turn. Ever have a heelside turn that chatters? (we all have dont lie). Thats your beloved rotary at work. Stay balanced, stay aligned, use your sidecut for what its worth...

I propose a few guidelines for you MGD81
1: Don't be a dick, EVER
2:If you cant follow #1 at least be right, or be funny.


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## cootcraig (Feb 5, 2013)

Snowolf said:


> Funny thing is, that to me was actually the clearest, most understandable description.....LOL


Agreed. works for me.

For my record, I'm collecting coaching tips from Snowolf, I was quoting him and expecting his response. I am finding Snowolf's cue descriptions to be helpful.

The reality is that my body, boarding equipment, and the slope under me are one piece - this experience is the teacher and the joy.

"Snowboard pilot" - I like it.


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## MGD81 (Mar 13, 2012)

Snowolf said:


> I disagree.
> 
> You're using a rotary movement as a primary rather than supportive body movement concept to try to generate twist. This movement primarily generates the board performance known as pivot. Twist is a board performance concept using the flexion and extension of the ankle joint to pressure your edge. trying to use rotary to achieve twist is not as efficient as using the ankle as the primary body movement.
> 
> ...





Bear5001 said:


> Just to match the tone put down earlier. Yes lets start a new thread, where we can measure our dicks, because this is no longer helping cootcraig. This is about flexing our brains/muscles, strutting and posturing, in short measuring our dicks... But alright im game, i got a big one
> 
> Flexing the knee joint CAN create twist, but only if you ankles, and hips move too. I can flex/extend my knees all day and keep a flat board, if i so choose. If you want to create twist, more is going on. As far as pushing down on your toes on toeside, this is a big problem with alot of riders, not denying that, but it doesn't prove your point about rotary at all. After you mention that you say you are isolating a movement. Great! But you forget to say what movement  and if flexion in the knee is the only one, without moving ankles, or hips, thats not very good advice. Prove it? Well the proof is in the pudding. Stand up from your computer right now (get away from all sharp objects) stand in your snowboard stance, now only bend your knees (NO you cannot flex your ankles, or bend at all at the waist because i am trying to isolate a movement here. You fell over didn't you? you should have beacuse its like doing a wall sit without a wall, you fall.
> 
> ...


I would love to see you try and pass cert 3 carving using this method. 

I used to ride like this, back when I had it drummed into me as a rookie instructor that I needed to be more in alignment. As soon as C3 came around it became pretty obvious that its impossible to match the radius of your toeside carve on steeps without some kind of rotary. My trainers (demo team members) will tell you that most people fail C3 on the carving because of this exact reason - a huge heelturn causing them to pick up tons of speed.

At no time did I say dont flex your ankle, infact most of my post advised lots of flexion. I didnt say what movement? try looking at the second point in the "to simplify" section.

I agree that the heelside portion is not the most efficient way, but again, im trying to isolate movement on the toeside, and I am betting that movement with the hips and shoulders is how he has been turning heelside up to now - lets keep it simple. 

Lastly, I have never been thrown to the outside of a heelturn. Mainly people who dont flex get chatter, and that leads to the board washing out, not bucking you over the top.


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