# Air Spins



## Pljudson (Jan 21, 2014)

I am really good at flips/spins on the trampoline and I can do ground spins really easily but when I get in the air on a snowboard I feel like i just freeze and its hard for me to pop while im turning into a spin. Besides my bad landing what can I do to spin fast. If im like going on flat ground i can pop in the air and do a 180 like extremely easy but when I go off a tiny jump I get like confused in the air I guess.


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## lab49232 (Sep 13, 2011)

It looks like your spinning with your legs instead of your core (the midsection of your body). This is easy to do on small spins like a 180 but as you get in to higher rotations a lot of the force will need to come from your core. If you load your core and release as you come off the jump your body will spin and the board will follow and your rotation will be much faster.


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## Pljudson (Jan 21, 2014)

lab49232 said:


> It looks like your spinning with your legs instead of your core (the midsection of your body). This is easy to do on small spins like a 180 but as you get in to higher rotations a lot of the force will need to come from your core. If you load your core and release as you come off the jump your body will spin and the board will follow and your rotation will be much faster.


Is it easier to do this with a grab? because i try to use my upper body and i end up leaving my legs behind. If i try this and just grab the front of my board will that help keep me together?


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## Alkasquawlik (Jul 13, 2010)

Your head is looking for the landing at about 90 degrees, which stops your body from continuing the rotation. Your body will follow your head, so if you continue to turn your head while in the air, the rest of the rotation will follow.

My $0.02 after watching it twice.


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## Pljudson (Jan 21, 2014)

Should i practice on a bigger jump i can really pop off and try to 360? Also should I start using my core right after I pop or before?


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## Krato (Apr 29, 2013)

Your mechanics are the same as if you are doing it on carpet or a tramp. Notice how your legs led your torso. For all spins you need to learn how to throw the spin with your shoulders and arms. The only reason dudes carve into a jump is to better anchor their edge while they start the spin with their upper body. Your feet will follow your head and shoulders, just remember that.


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## lab49232 (Sep 13, 2011)

Pljudson said:


> Is it easier to do this with a grab? because i try to use my upper body and i end up leaving my legs behind. If i try this and just grab the front of my board will that help keep me together?


Exactly as other people put, no need to grab. If you follow through with your head your legs will follow. You should be prepping and tightening your core on the jump and then releasing the energy once you pop. If your whole body including your head finishes your spin your board will follow. While normal riding has a lot to do with foot and leg movements spins are a ton of upper body. Turn and tighten your core towards your back shoulder just while sitting on your couch and then pretend your about to start spinning towards your front shoulder and you should instantly even while sitting still be able to feel that stored power there.


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## Mystery2many (Aug 14, 2013)

On top of previous advice. You are barely getting any air. The more air you get the less effort you will need to complete your rotation in time before you land.

If you try doing a 360 off that same hit you will need to add more core wind up and rotation and more pop. Also you are standing a little tall. Add a little more compression to your stance for more pop and better feel.


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## sclogger (Dec 3, 2013)

Your almost at 90 degrees of rotation before you clear the the lip of the kicker. For a 180 it's unnecessary. Like others have said focus more on popping off that lip and leading with your shoulders/head. The more air you get, the less need you'll feel to rush the rotation.

Also, before you move to a 360, get that 180 hammered down. No need to run before you can walk. If you focus on 3's you'll have more issues going back to 180's and even bigger problems with 5's.


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## NZRide (Oct 2, 2013)

Great advice above so just follow that.
One thing I noticed in your video that may help you break through, is your actually counter rotating your upper body against the direction of the spin! If you pause the frames just on your take off, you have started rotating the board backside but you shoulders are pushing back straight down the fall line (like the way you rode in) and if you pause in mid air you can see your body has carried on fighting against the actual spin direction, from the peak air position you can see your shoulders and arms are trying to keep your body riding down regular while just your lower body has tried to do a backside 3.
To do a 360 your upper body definitely needs to be in on the game.


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## stillz (Jan 5, 2010)

I've never practiced on a trampoline, but one possible difference is that the trampoline may give you some traction to push against to create your spin and snow does not. On a snowboard, a slight carve can give you that bit of traction you need to start the spin with your legs. To prevent your spin from continuing after the landing, try to look back where you came from (blind landing), and ride looking uphill for a few feet. Really nice if you want to hit the next feature switch.


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## Jed (May 11, 2011)

There's some bad info in this thread, so before I get to the spin stuff, I'm going to clear some things up.

*1) It's not about getting more air to spin more*

Spin is not about getting more air, it's about getting more power into your rotation.

Yes as you move to bigger rotations, you'll need more air, but that doesn't happen until you start doing much bigger tricks. For 180s, 360s and even 540s, you barely need any airtime. The whole 'get more air to spin more' is bad advice and it means you're setting up your spin the wrong way.

*2) Don't pop harder to spin more*

The purpose of pop is not to get more air and spin more, it's to set you up for a stable air. To spin more you add power to your carve, not power to your pop.

You want a firm, good pop, but you absolutely do not need to pop harder to spin bigger spins.

Okay now that I've covered that, on to the spinning.

*1) To fix that 180*

I'm not sure if you wanted advice to fix the 180 as well, but just in case you did, you were mainly messing up that 180 because you didn't end it in a blind landing.

You can see at the end of that rotation that your head continues to look forward at the end of the rotation. That's why you're over-rotating into a 270 instead of ending at 180. With backside 180s you have to end the spin by looking back at the knuckle, otherwise you'll over-rotate like you did in the video.
*
2) To take this to 360s*

It's all about your carve line. Right now you're not carving into the jump, you're coming in on an edge while mostly riding straight, which is fine for 180s since they require barely any rotation.

However, for 360s and beyond you want to start using proper carving. This means entering the jump at an angle and carving up the take-off to create spin power. The more spin you need, the harder you set up and release that carve.

I've attached a rough diagram of what your carve line should look like coming into the jump.

If you want more in-depth info on the carve line, I have an old blog I did on the subject awhile back here: The Secret To An Effortless 360 Rotation - The Perfect Carve Line

One last thing, besides the carve line as already mentioned, you want to quiet down that upper body and start relying more on having your upper body lead that rotation, while getting power for the carve to power the spin (instead of throwing your hands around).

Think of it like this:

Body rotation = starts and leads the spin and tells your body where to spin
Carve = creates power to spin
Pop = releases your spin power and sets you up for stable air

If done right, your upper body will lead the spin, the carve and pop will create power and release it into the spin, and your lower body will follow your upper body around into the spin.

ps - in the image below, the swap edge point simply means it's where you go from your setup carve to your final carve. So for example, if you were doing a backside 360, that swap edge point is where you're going from heelside to engaging your toeside edge and carving up the jump.


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## Alkasquawlik (Jul 13, 2010)

Jed said:


> There's some bad info in this thread, so before I get to the spin stuff, I'm going to clear some things up.
> 
> *1) It's not about getting more air to spin more*
> 
> ...



This.

I can't believe people are telling OP to get more air, when he is having issue spinning a 3 on a smaller jump. Sending it off a bigger jump is just going to get him hurt.


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## sheepstealer (Aug 19, 2009)

Jed FTW. 

For what its worth...this may or may not be helpful...

When I was learning to 360 I was always told to spin BS first. So for almost a whole season I would try to spin BS, with the impression that this was the easier side to spin. BUT I just couldn't get 360s clean. I was either not rotating enough, landing tail heavy or they just looked sloppy. So one day I tried spinning FS instead and landed it perfectly, first time. I just feel way more comfortable spinning FS over BS. Once I locked in my FS 3's, I took the same mechanics I had with those and translated it to BS and was able to even those out.

Just an idea. Something to think about.


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## Alkasquawlik (Jul 13, 2010)

FWIW, I learned backside 3s and became comfortable spinning that way years before I was able to comfortably spin a front 3. Weirdly, I was able to spin corked back 5s and back 7s before I was able to spin a clean (IMO) front 3.


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## Mystery2many (Aug 14, 2013)

Yea. A little more air wouldn't help at all. And considering its a bump not a jump no need for more pop. Now that I think about it, you shouldn't get any air. Go as small as possible, carve half the lip, hover an inch above the snow and yank your body. Getting another couple inches of air and a little more hang time could kill you so stay away. Effortless style is for fools.


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## Jed (May 11, 2011)

Mystery2many said:


> Yea. A little more air wouldn't help at all. And considering its a bump not a jump no need for more pop. Now that I think about it, you shouldn't get any air. Go as small as possible, carve half the lip, hover an inch above the snow and yank your body. Getting another couple inches of air and a little more hang time could kill you so stay away. Effortly style is for fools.


I honestly can't tell if mystery is making a joke or if he's being passive aggressive because we said his advice was wrong.

Just fyi, I'm not saying getting more air is 100% wrong, just that if anyone is relying on more air for 360s, then it's a flaw in their technique that needs to be fixed and more air will just mask bad technique without solving the real problem. You don't see any good snowboarders struggling to pull 360s on flat ground because their technique is solid and that's why spins are effortless for them.


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## Mystery2many (Aug 14, 2013)

I'm use to you saying I'm wrong. I'm also use to you thinking your the only one who knows anything and everyone else is beneath you. Sounds like a personality issue really. Considering its a Internet forum and not a in person hands on experience training to be an Olympian, I don't see why your so serious all the time. Oh yea, personality issue. I don't and I'm sure others don't agree with every magical piece of advice you type but we don't follow you around picking apart every little disagreement we find. You give sold advice 90% of the time but you also consider your advice the one and only way to fix or accomplish something. 

OP, I still stand by my first post. You inquired and we told you what we see. For me, finding a jump or hip that gave me decent amount of air help me lock in my spins without rushing them or putting a ton of upper body in it or a hard carve. The hang time gave me time to think and allowed me to break down each part of the spin (set up, body posture, landing). This same concept applied to my wakeboarding and bmx freestyle. More time in the air allows me to do tricks without rushing them. Keep in mind I'm not saying go huge. Just something that gives you a little more lift without trying so hard. 

Your turn master Jed. Tell everyone how terribly wrong I am and how this will creat bad habits that will ruin your snowboarding experience. All hail the almighty Jed. :bowdown:


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## ShredLife (Feb 6, 2010)

subscribed. 


OP: just turn your fucking shoulders instead of your legs, look back uphill and spot your landing by looking behind you. bam. bs1.


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## Alkasquawlik (Jul 13, 2010)

Mystery2many said:


> I'm use to you saying I'm wrong. I'm also use to you thinking your the only one who knows anything and everyone else is beneath you. Sounds like a personality issue really. Considering its a Internet forum and not a in person hands on experience training to be an Olympian, I don't see why your so serious all the time. Oh yea, personality issue. I don't and I'm sure others don't agree with every magical piece of advice you type but we don't follow you around picking apart every little disagreement we find. You give sold advice 90% of the time but you also consider your advice the one and only way to fix or accomplish something.
> 
> OP, I still stand by my first post. You inquired and we told you what we see. For me, finding a jump or hip that gave me decent amount of air help me lock in my spins without rushing them or putting a ton of upper body in it or a hard carve. The hang time gave me time to think and allowed me to break down each part of the spin (set up, body posture, landing). This same concept applied to my wakeboarding and bmx freestyle. More time in the air allows me to do tricks without rushing them. Keep in mind I'm not saying go huge. Just something that gives you a little more lift without trying so hard.
> 
> Your turn master Jed. Tell everyone how terribly wrong I am and how this will creat bad habits that will ruin your snowboarding experience. All hail the almighty Jed. :bowdown:


I agree with Jed. Your advice was fucking terrible.


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## Mystery2many (Aug 14, 2013)

Alkasquawlik said:


> I agree with Jed. Your advice was fucking terrible.


Shit happens. :thumbsup:


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## Jed (May 11, 2011)

Mystery2many said:


> I'm use to you saying I'm wrong. I'm also use to you thinking your the only one who knows anything and everyone else is beneath you. Sounds like a personality issue really. Considering its a Internet forum and not a in person hands on experience training to be an Olympian, I don't see why your so serious all the time. Oh yea, personality issue. I don't and I'm sure others don't agree with every magical piece of advice you type but we don't follow you around picking apart every little disagreement we find. You give sold advice 90% of the time but you also consider your advice the one and only way to fix or accomplish something.
> 
> OP, I still stand by my first post. You inquired and we told you what we see. For me, finding a jump or hip that gave me decent amount of air help me lock in my spins without rushing them or putting a ton of upper body in it or a hard carve. The hang time gave me time to think and allowed me to break down each part of the spin (set up, body posture, landing). This same concept applied to my wakeboarding and bmx freestyle. More time in the air allows me to do tricks without rushing them. Keep in mind I'm not saying go huge. Just something that gives you a little more lift without trying so hard.
> 
> Your turn master Jed. Tell everyone how terribly wrong I am and how this will creat bad habits that will ruin your snowboarding experience. All hail the almighty Jed. :bowdown:


I like how you still took offense to the most non confrontational way I could have said you were wrong.

I quote:

"There's some bad info in this thread, so before I get to the spin stuff, I'm going to clear some things up."

Really? You're getting upset because I said that? I didn't even use your name and purposely avoided targeting anyone in particular out. You're the one on the forum who keeps taking an issue every time someone calls you out on talking nonsense, then posting some passive aggressive response about being a victim.

If you don't want someone to call you out when you post something, don't comment on something you don't know about. I get that you love to help, but if you don't know what you're talking about, not commenting is better than posting the wrong advice, getting told it's wrong, then getting upset because you suddenly see yourself as some huge victim.

I can't help that the main forum I frequent is the tips/techniques forum and that you love posting about technique that you're clearly not experienced in doing.

Geez, and I thought I was being very nice and non confrontational about how I added my input.


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## Mystery2many (Aug 14, 2013)

Jed said:


> I like how you still took offense to the most non confrontational way I could have said you were wrong.
> 
> I quote:
> 
> ...


I'm not upset nor am I a victim. LOL

You might disagree with me but that doesn't make me wrong. It makes it a disagreement. Oh and this isn't our first rodeo so I know your implications. I'm no professional instructor but I'm not clueless to technique either. I shared what helped me and that's all. I didn't go into detail or did I shit on others attempts to help whether I agree or not. Why don't you try putting in your .0002 cents and focus on the OP rather than constantly stepping on others. That won't happen because you need that for your own needs.


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## Jed (May 11, 2011)

Mystery2many said:


> I'm not upset nor am I a victim. LOL
> 
> You might disagree with me but that doesn't make me wrong. It makes it a disagreement. Oh and this isn't our first rodeo so I know your implications. I'm no professional instructor but I'm not clueless to technique either. I shared what helped me and that's all. I didn't go into detail or did I shit on others attempts to help whether I agree or not. Why don't you try putting in your .0002 cents and focus on the OP rather than constantly stepping on others. That won't happen because you need that for your own needs.


So your idea of me stepping on others is saying "Some advice here is off and this is how it should be done"? How is that stepping on others when I purposely put it in a way that didn't target anyone and merely addressed the actual information.

Should I just ignore every time someone says "how do you spin?" and someone responds "You basically jump off one foot and lick your elbow while carving"? Sorry, but no. Wrong advice is wrong, period.

Someone (you - and I didn't even call you out. You got salty and posted your usual passive aggressive bs post for no reason) said the OP needed more pop and it was clearly not his issue. I didn't call you out, and merely said the information was off and explained how spin works. That's what you call stepping on you?

The only one who has issues here is you who constantly gets offended every single time you post 'your experience' and someone who knows better speaks up. Heck, look at the other times you've been called out by other posters and compare them to how I talk to you and tell me I'm not being 100 times nicer about it.

I'm pretty sure that between the two of us, I'm the one teaching from actual experience on the topic using the exact same method both me and every single pro you watch in the park spins and you're the one who keeps giving random advice and saying "there are many ways to learn spin" while not a single experienced rider does it your special way.

You get offended over the slightest thing even when I was trying to not offend you because I know how sensitive you get. Look over my replies to you and tell me they're not a hundred times more civil than every other encounter you've had on this forum with someone who disagreed with you.

It seems to me you're the one with the serious issues here if you get this riled up over nothing and have a history of blowing up over nonsense like this.

Compare our posts and see which of us seems to be exhibiting more crazy. This is an internet forum as you said, you can't just post crazy stuff and expect no one to say "sorry but that's wrong". That's not how it works, people will call you out on bs and you either get used to it or stop being a drama queen for no reason and say "Oh good point, my bad". This isn't your personal place to post whatever nonsense you want and not ever have anyone say anything about what you post.

Welcome to the internet, where if you post something, others will comment on it, good or bad. Shesh. You'd think I kicked your dog from the way you're acting.

You want to act like a 10 year old and cry foul, fine, here's what I would have posted if I was actually trying to step on you instead of being civil.

*This is what I posted as you supposedly say is 'stepping on you':*

"There's some bad info in this thread, so before I get to the spin stuff, I'm going to clear some things up."

*This is what I would have posted if I was actually trying to put you down:*

You're right. Just because I disagree with you doesn't mean you're wrong. The fact that the advice is wrong makes it wrong. Which of these two sounds more credible on spinning:

a) The guy who claims he's not trying to be pro and speaks purely from personal experience with no evidence in his own riding to show any high level of skill in snowboarding.

or

b) The guy who makes a living from his ability to snowboard and teaches snowboarders how to spin and is teaching the exact same technique that every other advanced rider uses to spin.

Man. I don't know why I bother trying to be civil when you act like a 10 year old every time someone says anything that disagrees with you. Anyhow, you enjoy your tamper tantrum, I've already wasted more time than I should have replying to this nonsense.


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## Mystery2many (Aug 14, 2013)

Ok Jed. You win. I'm not gonna continue to go back and forth with you and ruin this mans thread. Everything you say is right and I'm always wrong. Have a good day.


Edit: you remind me of HK for some reason.


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## Donutz (May 12, 2010)

(This pic has nothing to do with anything. I just wanted to use it)


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## Mystery2many (Aug 14, 2013)

Donutz said:


> (This pic has nothing to do with anything. I just wanted to use it)


LOL. I see what you did there. That cat looks like a victim too. Lol :thumbsup:


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## Littlebigdreams (Jan 27, 2011)

Jed said:


> *2) Don't pop harder to spin more*
> 
> The purpose of pop is not to get more air and spin more, it's to set you up for a stable air. To spin more you add power to your carve, not power to your pop.
> 
> ...


Can you explain what is a firm, good pop? You mentioned that the purpose of pop is not to get more air, but will a bigger pop help with more air and more stability? 

Right now I've been doing some 3's and 5's off small kickers on Whistler (the jumps underneath the Emerald chair). What I notice is that I look like I'm pretty much coasting off the lip, I don't think I understand the pop motion well enough. Is there anything I'm doing wrong?

Whistler Park Fun Day 1-26-2014 - YouTube

here's a clip of me at 2:03. There's another clip of me getting scared and failing on a M jump at 0:18.


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## Jed (May 11, 2011)

Littlebigdreams said:


> Can you explain what is a firm, good pop? You mentioned that the purpose of pop is not to get more air, but will a bigger pop help with more air and more stability?
> 
> Right now I've been doing some 3's and 5's off small kickers on Whistler (the jumps underneath the Emerald chair). What I notice is that I look like I'm pretty much coasting off the lip, I don't think I understand the pop motion well enough. Is there anything I'm doing wrong?
> 
> ...


*Basically the main purpose of pop is 2 things:*

1) To ensure you're pushing off evenly off both feet (so you aren't pushing off harder on one foot or getting thrown off the jump off balanced). This ensures a nice stable air instead of you ending up upside down or sideways and landing on your back.

2) To push against the curved take-off of the jump which wants to throw you off balance.

You may notice that on some jumps with really curvy take-off ramps, the ramp wants to kind of throw you off balance as you ride up it. That's called the 'kick' of a jump.

Pop neutralizes this kick by pushing against it with your own force using both your legs evenly to push yourself up as you ride up the curved ramp.

So by 'stable and firm' pop I mean pop that's even off both feet, and with enough force to push against and counter any of that kick from the curved ramp.

*Feedback for your video:*

Honestly it looks to me like your pop was fine. It wasn't a big pop, and you could definitely have pushed a little more firmly with both legs, but the jump take-off wasn't very curved, so not much pop is required to fight against the small amount of 'kick' as you ride up that take-off.

You started your pop as you rode up the ramp (2:05ish) and finished it as you rode off (2:06ish). If it were me I would have popped a tiny bit more, but honestly that's more personal preference (I like more pop on my spins) and the amount of pop you had was fine, not to mention it's hard to pop more on frontside spins anyhow (heelside popping is way harder vs. toeside/backside spins).

The main thing you were doing wrong is you needed more speed. You were landing on the knuckle of the jump in both jump clips. Your rotation looked smooth and it looked fine right until you ran out of room and landed on the knuckle.

More speed and you should be fine, the rest of your technique looks good and it looked like you were trying to do the whole blind landing on the fs 360 right before you hit the knuckle, so more speed and you would have had it.

Let us know how it goes though, and let me know if you're still in Whistler in mid February, I'll be back in town and I'm happy to do a few laps and offer some advice if you'd like.


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## Littlebigdreams (Jan 27, 2011)

Jed said:


> *Basically the main purpose of pop is 2 things:*
> 
> 1) To ensure you're pushing off evenly off both feet (so you aren't pushing off harder on one foot or getting thrown off the jump off balanced). This ensures a nice stable air instead of you ending up upside down or sideways and landing on your back.
> 
> ...


Thanks for reviewing my video! Speed certainly is my nemesis a lot of times, I'm trying to push myself to become more comfortable with it. 

I'll definitely be in Whistler around mid-Feb and would love to ride with you! Hopefully our schedules can match up and I'll PM you when you're back =)


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## Ndanielson (Jan 20, 2014)

Littlebigdreams said:


> Can you explain what is a firm, good pop? You mentioned that the purpose of pop is not to get more air, but will a bigger pop help with more air and more stability?
> 
> Right now I've been doing some 3's and 5's off small kickers on Whistler (the jumps underneath the Emerald chair). What I notice is that I look like I'm pretty much coasting off the lip, I don't think I understand the pop motion well enough. Is there anything I'm doing wrong?
> 
> ...


To me it seems as if you're not achieving enough pop to set yourself up for anything other than what speed and carve are going to give you. You definitely have the motion and technique down, but you could definitely get more air. The best way to feel "Pop" is to simply practice ollies and hit kickers into straight grabs or airs. There's definitely a technique to getting the most pop out of your board but you'll know it when you have it. Also... More Speed!! Cheers


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## Jed (May 11, 2011)

Littlebigdreams said:


> Thanks for reviewing my video! Speed certainly is my nemesis a lot of times, I'm trying to push myself to become more comfortable with it.
> 
> I'll definitely be in Whistler around mid-Feb and would love to ride with you! Hopefully our schedules can match up and I'll PM you when you're back =)


For sure, my schedule is very flexible (hooray for being your own boss) so I'm sure we can sort something out.



Ndanielson said:


> To me it seems as if you're not achieving enough pop to set yourself up for anything other than what speed and carve are going to give you. You definitely have the motion and technique down, but you could definitely get more air. The best way to feel "Pop" is to simply practice ollies and hit kickers into straight grabs or airs. There's definitely a technique to getting the most pop out of your board but you'll know it when you have it. Also... More Speed!! Cheers


But, but, I literally just explained how pop isn't primarily for airtime in the last couple of posts 

It's a very common mistake to think if you need more air=more pop, but pop is more for stability, not so much for the air time (except in some rare cases such as when you can't get enough speed for a jump due to lack of run-in/slow snow conditions and pop is your only alternative).

If he just fixes his speed to land in the sweet spot of the jump he won't have to change his pop at all (which is fine, a little weak, but he's still popping enough for that jump). No need to change two things when just one change will do (not that he can't pop harder if he wants to... but seems unnecessary when his technique is already spot on and just needs a speed correction).

By the way, I'm not sure what you mean here:



Ndanielson said:


> The best way to feel "Pop" is to simply practice ollies and hit kickers into straight grabs or airs.


I'm not sure what you're trying to describe here since pop and ollie are two completely different techniques for different tricks and he definitely doesn't want to ollie off the jump.

Ollie = springing off the tail of your snowboard and mainly used for flatground and jibbing (less stable)
Pop = pushing evenly off both feet and used for setting up spins and stable air off jumps (more stable)


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## Ndanielson (Jan 20, 2014)

I don't want to hi-jack here... no I understand you're fixing his current attempt, in which case, yes just more speed. I just want him to understand the notion of how pop correlates to a jump as compared to simply letting momentum and gravity do the work. There's definitely a technique to hitting a jump properly while using the pop in your board and legs. Sorry for the confusion regarding ollies and pop... Less ollie, more jumping.


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## Jed (May 11, 2011)

Ndanielson said:


> I don't want to hi-jack here... no I understand you're fixing his current attempt, in which case, yes just more speed. I just want him to understand the notion of how pop correlates to a jump as compared to simply letting momentum and gravity do the work. There's definitely a technique to hitting a jump properly while using the pop in your board and legs. Sorry for the confusion regarding ollies and pop... Less ollie, more jumping.


All good man, I get what you're saying.


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## Littlebigdreams (Jan 27, 2011)

Ndanielson said:


> To me it seems as if you're not achieving enough pop to set yourself up for anything other than what speed and carve are going to give you. You definitely have the motion and technique down, but you could definitely get more air. The best way to feel "Pop" is to simply practice ollies and hit kickers into straight grabs or airs. There's definitely a technique to getting the most pop out of your board but you'll know it when you have it. Also... More Speed!! Cheers


Thanks for your tips! 

I will try what Jed said and just focus on speed first. But I think I understand what you mean about pop as well because my straight airs are always much higher than my spins. I notice that I have more of a pumping motion when I take straight airs or 180s and I can easily throw a grab in there, but for my 3's my legs seem to be stiff and I cannot grab.


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## Jed (May 11, 2011)

Littlebigdreams said:


> But I think I understand what you mean about pop as well because my straight airs are always much higher than my spins. I notice that I have more of a pumping motion when I take straight airs or 180s and I can easily throw a grab in there, but for my 3's my legs seem to be stiff and I cannot grab.


It's good that you notice that difference in your pop. To build on what he's talking about as far as pop vs. speed goes, as you get more advanced you'll start fine tuning your speed based on the pop that you know you'll get from each trick to compensate for differences in pop.

Here are a couple examples to explain what I'm talking about.

*Example 1*) You could be hitting a jump checking the speed doing straight airs, and you find that sweet spot to drop in from.

However, on the next run you want to do a switch backside spin 360. You also know that on your switch backside spins you don't pop as well as you normally do because you aren't as comfortable popping switch off your toes.

This means you'll want to drop in slightly higher to take a tiny bit more speed than you'd normally take for a regular straight air because you know your pop will be less than your straight airs, so your airtime will be slightly less and you have to make up the difference using more speed.

*Example 2)* You'll also start watching other people hit jumps and compensate for how hard they pop when you're trying to figure out the speed.

So for instance, I might ask a friend where he's dropping in from for a jump and what his line is for the right speed, and he'll point to his spot.

However I might watch him drop in and do his trick and notice he pops way harder than I do for the trick I want to do, so I know I'll have to compensate for that by dropping in slightly higher than him to make up for the airtime I lose from having less pop than him.

Anyhow, don't want to confuse you by getting too detailed into this, it's not something you have to really worry too much about right now, but you'll start changing your speed based on pop more and more as you start doing more tricks and noticing the differences in your pop (especially when doing switch tricks where you won't pop as well as regular).


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## Littlebigdreams (Jan 27, 2011)

Jed said:


> It's good that you notice that difference in your pop. To build on what he's talking about as far as pop vs. speed goes, as you get more advanced you'll start fine tuning your speed based on the pop that you know you'll get from each trick to compensate for differences in pop.
> 
> Here are a couple examples to explain what I'm talking about.
> 
> ...


i practice a bit more today with a friend at our local mountain (cypress). i tried to get more speed than usual, but i think i still could have gone faster. 

would you be so kind to take a look at this small clip and critique again my friend and i? my buddy jumped the 1st and i jumped the 2nd. the third guy... haha i think his problem is identical to mine (no speed, way too many setup turns)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eB_65Pvj_9Q


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## Jed (May 11, 2011)

Littlebigdreams said:


> i practice a bit more today with a friend at our local mountain (cypress). i tried to get more speed than usual, but i think i still could have gone faster.
> 
> would you be so kind to take a look at this small clip and critique again my friend and i? my buddy jumped the 1st and i jumped the 2nd. the third guy... haha i think his problem is identical to mine (no speed, way too many setup turns)
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eB_65Pvj_9Q


*First guy:* He needs to quiet down his upper body and work on spotting that landing better. Right now it looks like he has enough rotation for that 540 (watch his lower body and notice it does most of the 540 just fine), but he has his upper body being thrown all over the place and screwing him up, especially at the landing.

If you look at the end of his rotation, he sees the landing and tries to fix his body to land, but his upper body is flying all over the place so trying to bring it in line to land stops his rotation from finishing properly and landing. Watch at 10-11 seconds in, his rotation just stops at 450 for no reason, then he lands on his butt.

What he needs to do is quiet down that upper body and just let it lead the rotation smoothly, then he won't be fighting to get it in line to land.

*Second guy:*

Tiny bit too slow, but you didn't knuckle too badly, would have hit the sweet spot with a tiny bit more speed.

Were you trying for a 360 or 540 there?

If it was a 360, then the rotation was fine, but you needed to spot that landing blind by looking at the knuckle instead of looking forward.

If it was a 540, you need to get more carve power, so come in with more angle and more carve to get a little bit more rotation power to get that 540 around.

*Third guy:*

Yeah... wrong speed, way too many setup turns and he needs to land that 360 blind (looking backwards at the knuckle and not forward when landing - although I say this assuming he has the right speed and the knuckle is behind him when he lands )


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## SGoldwin (Oct 10, 2011)

I am not expert but there is a rotation difference between guy 1 and 2. 1 has more speed in his rotation.

Here's a guy with plenty of rotation. In the beginning of the video he does almost a 720 flat !!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h6luuqA7CEY

I can see that his upper body is turned 90 degrees at the moment he starts his pop and he continues to rotate his head/upper body until he is finished.

But how should one think/train to get more rotation speed. I have no problems with 180, but struggling on 360 and more.


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## Jed (May 11, 2011)

SGoldwin said:


> I am not expert but there is a rotation difference between guy 1 and 2. 1 has more speed in his rotation.
> 
> Here's a guy with plenty of rotation. In the beginning of the video he does almost a 720 flat !!!
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h6luuqA7CEY
> ...


Rotation comes down to timing and how well you utilize the power from your carve. Notice that really hard loud sound just before that guy launches into his 720? That's his carve. He has his timing so down that he goes from flat base, to hard carve, to launching into his spin all in that short span of under 1 second and he's able to utilize all that power due to good timing.

If you want the one reason why most people struggle with 360s and beyond it's because they aren't carving properly. Sometimes it's their timing being badly off, but a lot of it is their bad carve line as well.

I guarantee if you watch 20 beginners in the park trying to spin and watch their carve lines they'll be doing this:

- Drop in, do their setup turn, get ready to carve, get on their toe or heel edge, ride up the jump in a straight line on that edge, launch into their spin.

Every single beginner thinks they're carving but really 99% of them are just riding up the jump on an edge, then trying to launch their spin. If they were carving their board would be turning left or right as they ride up the jump instead of riding in a straight line.

In reality they should be doing this:

- Drop in, do their setup turn, get ready to carve, come into the jump at an angle, carve up the jump, launch into their spin.

You can see a diagram of this carve up here: http://www.snowboardingforum.com/tips-tricks-snowboard-coaching/121897-air-spins-2.html#post1462145

There's a big difference between carving and riding on an edge up the jump and that's where most people go wrong with powering their spin.

The reason you don't see advanced riders utilize that carve line as much on 180s and 360s is their timing is so good that they don't need the power, but if you watch them do bigger spins on medium jumps where they want more power, you'll notice they all carve up the jump at an angle to get that extra power.


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## Littlebigdreams (Jan 27, 2011)

Jed said:


> *First guy:* He needs to quiet down his upper body and work on spotting that landing better. Right now it looks like he has enough rotation for that 540 (watch his lower body and notice it does most of the 540 just fine), but he has his upper body being thrown all over the place and screwing him up, especially at the landing.
> 
> If you look at the end of his rotation, he sees the landing and tries to fix his body to land, but his upper body is flying all over the place so trying to bring it in line to land stops his rotation from finishing properly and landing. Watch at 10-11 seconds in, his rotation just stops at 450 for no reason, then he lands on his butt.
> 
> ...


thanks thanks!

I was trying to 360, for some reason when I 'carve' up a jump (i must be doing it wrong) for a 540, I often end up scraping a lot of speed off. Especially on slushy or bumby conditions. This freaks me out to try on bigger kickers because I really want to clear the majority of the knuckle.


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## SGoldwin (Oct 10, 2011)

Jed said:


> Rotation comes down to timing and how well you utilize the power from your carve. Notice that really hard loud sound just before that guy launches into his 720? That's his carve. He has his timing so down that he goes from flat base, to hard carve, to launching into his spin all in that short span of under 1 second and he's able to utilize all that power due to good timing.
> 
> If you want the one reason why most people struggle with 360s and beyond it's because they aren't carving properly. Sometimes it's their timing being badly off, but a lot of it is their bad carve line as well.
> 
> ...


Great tip on 'carve'. I have read and followed Snowboard addictions tutorials on 360 and more. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K0dx4qT4wrQ

But I have missed the focus on carving. I'll for sure try that next time.


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## Jed (May 11, 2011)

Littlebigdreams said:


> thanks thanks!
> 
> I was trying to 360, for some reason when I 'carve' up a jump (i must be doing it wrong) for a 540, I often end up scraping a lot of speed off. Especially on slushy or bumby conditions. This freaks me out to try on bigger kickers because I really want to clear the majority of the knuckle.


Yeah slushy snow and carving tends to be like that, it's just about taking more speed in to counteract how much speed you lose trying to carving on slush. Once it gets too slushy you lose more and more of your ability to carve because your board just sinks into the slush, that's when most experienced park riders will either call it a day or swap to lower rotation tricks that don't require much carve (180s/360s).

As I mentioned in the last post, it's pretty common for most people to be 'carving' where they're just on an edge riding up the jump instead of actually carving where their board is turning. Doing the former will scrub a lot of your speed off.

I don't say it's completely a bad thing to not be doing a full blown carve, after all most experienced riders you watch doing 180s and 360s don't carve for these lower rotations, but it's something you'll need more as you transition to bigger rotations like 540s and 720s.


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## NZRide (Oct 2, 2013)

3rd guy-Reason I'm just mentioning him is because it relates a little to the issue you had on the first video you posted of yourself (but your friend is doing it a lot more so you can more readily see it). Notice how he takes off on the right side of the kicker (far from camera) but lands on the flat on the left side of the jump (close to the camera) he has turned to early off the jump leaving it on an angle, which firstly scrubs speed and of course flying diagonally across the flat, makes hitting the landing zone much longer than heading straight off (and you said you would never need to use your trigonometry when you left school).

Note this situation is not caused by incorrect technique on the lip as you may think, he is predisposed to this outcome, with his setup turns. Look at your setup turn in contrast, coming out pretty wide on you final toeside setup turn, before shifting to your heel edge looks pretty good (I still think you could hold off transition to your heel edge a little longer). But contrast this to your mate, his toeside setup "turn" is more like he is heading straight at it for a straight air, from this position, when he moves to his heels, he will start carving to the left, as you can see has actually happened with his launch, well to the left.

Your jumps look to have improved, well done, your not far off having a good smooth 360. Keep practising man.


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## Littlebigdreams (Jan 27, 2011)

NZRide said:


> 3rd guy-Reason I'm just mentioning him is because it relates a little to the issue you had on the first video you posted of yourself (but your friend is doing it a lot more so you can more readily see it). Notice how he takes off on the right side of the kicker (far from camera) but lands on the flat on the left side of the jump (close to the camera) he has turned to early off the jump leaving it on an angle, which firstly scrubs speed and of course flying diagonally across the flat, makes hitting the landing zone much longer than heading straight off (and you said you would never need to use your trigonometry when you left school).
> 
> Note this situation is not caused by incorrect technique on the lip as you may think, he is predisposed to this outcome, with his setup turns. Look at your setup turn in contrast, coming out pretty wide on you final toeside setup turn, before shifting to your heel edge looks pretty good (I still think you could hold off transition to your heel edge a little longer). But contrast this to your mate, his toeside setup "turn" is more like he is heading straight at it for a straight air, from this position, when he moves to his heels, he will start carving to the left, as you can see has actually happened with his launch, well to the left.
> 
> Your jumps look to have improved, well done, your not far off having a good smooth 360. Keep practising man.


Thank you for the line issue out! I've read the same tip on Jed's blog and Snowboard Addition as well. Although I still do it sometimes. For some reason I am more comfortable with step-up jumps and get scared with flat or step down jumps.


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## NZRide (Oct 2, 2013)

Yeah its a mental thing, step ups you can see the landing in front of you and with the kick you land slower than the takeoff. It take a bit mentally to chuck your body into a spin off a ramp where all you can see is a ramp and the sky beyond. You're definitely getting it though, hang in there. Not to take anything away from other advise on here, but you can't go wrong with the snowboard addiction vid on spins, its hands down the best spin tutorial available, one stop shop.
But you're doing the right thing, analyzing your own videos, what you think your doing is not always what you're actually doing.


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## Littlebigdreams (Jan 27, 2011)

NZRide said:


> Yeah its a mental thing, step ups you can see the landing in front of you and with the kick you land slower than the takeoff. It take a bit mentally to chuck your body into a spin off a ramp where all you can see is a ramp and the sky beyond. You're definitely getting it though, hang in there. Not to take anything away from other advise on here, but you can't go wrong with the snowboard addiction vid on spins, its hands down the best spin tutorial available, one stop shop.
> But you're doing the right thing, analyzing your own videos, what you think your doing is not always what you're actually doing.


I'm coming back seeking more tips! :yahoo:

So I've been trying to practice a bit more with my spins (unfortunately we're getting no snow in Vancouver and I usually only have time at night when the jumps are icy). 

I think I got used to getting more speed and popping quite comfortably up. I've had a few almost successful 540 attempts where I felt very stable and very controlled in the air. But for most of the attempts, I will only get about 450 degrees around. After the 450 I clearly see the landing and see that my board has become horizontal (just need that extra 90 degrees to finish). But at this point my rotation seems to stop and I will land horizontally, then sit down on my butt (which kind of hurts when I'm dropping down from the air). 

Is my problem "opening up too early" or something similar that's causing me to only do 450? Every time I felt like I'm in the perfectly relaxed athletic stance in the air (with knees bent, body stable, looking straight at the landing) but I could not get that last 90 degrees around. Or should I just carve up and rotate slightly more aggressively to get that full rotation?


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## Jed (May 11, 2011)

Littlebigdreams said:


> I'm coming back seeking more tips! :yahoo:
> 
> So I've been trying to practice a bit more with my spins (unfortunately we're getting no snow in Vancouver and I usually only have time at night when the jumps are icy).
> 
> ...


It could be either (would have to see video to figure out what's happening for sure), but you'll definitely benefit from carving more aggressively as you ride up that take-off for 540s.

From your previous videos you were just barely getting the 540 around, which is fine, but a tiny bit more rotation wouldn't hurt if you want to make it easier to open up and not worry about coming up short on the rotation.

Where do you typically open up for your fs 540s? Ideally you'd be opening up roughly around the time you see that landing starting to come into view as you finish that last 180 of the rotation so you can square up and land.


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## Littlebigdreams (Jan 27, 2011)

Jed said:


> Where do you typically open up for your fs 540s? Ideally you'd be opening up roughly around the time you see that landing starting to come into view as you finish that last 180 of the rotation so you can square up and land.


To be honest I don't quite understand what 'opening up' actually means other than the fact that I've seen people mention how it will slow down rotation. I believe that once I jump into the air my upper body does not move all the way until I land. But I definitely need to take another video 

Are you available in Whistler at any time during weekends this month? :laugh:


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## Jed (May 11, 2011)

Littlebigdreams said:


> To be honest I don't quite understand what 'opening up' actually means other than the fact that I've seen people mention how it will slow down rotation. I believe that once I jump into the air my upper body does not move all the way until I land. But I definitely need to take another video
> 
> Are you available in Whistler at any time during weekends this month? :laugh:


Basically 'opening up' in this case just means going from your compact position (when your legs are sucked in and you're grabbing your board etc.) to letting go of your grab and extending your legs again to square up and land.

I'll be in Whistler from Feb 15th onwards for the rest of the season, feel free to msg me anytime and we'll do some laps.


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