# Need For Speed! Help me with equipment selection / knowledge - Advanced Rider



## Sudden_Death (Mar 23, 2011)

You can always bust out with the hardboot race board and spandex suit. Other than that is sounds like you are pretty much maxed.


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## grafta (Dec 21, 2009)

Buy a sled and have your buddy tow you downhill as fast as it will go :thumbsup:

:laugh: Disclaimer: I will not be held responsible for what happens and don't actually think this is a good idea! :laugh:


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## SJ10 (Mar 3, 2010)

I go for all out speed any time conditions and "traffic" allow. I have a designated speed run at the local mountain that I've done hundreds of time. Most of these I've recorded and anaylized later (garmin edge 305). I'm 6'1" and ~235 and have tried to the following boards dozens of times (many back to back) under various conditions:

Burton custom x wide 164
Raptor X 169
Titan TX 169
Ride Highlife UL wide 163

My highest reproducable speed was 67 on my CX but normally get between 57 and 63 regardless of board. The top run was with perfect groomed hardpack and ~20 mph tail wind. What I've concluded so far is top speed is more a factor of snow condition and wind resistance than board choice. Board choice, in my opinion, comes more into play where stability and control is concerned. My longer and/or damper boards feel a little more stable but I don't have any evidence that they're actually faster. Your method may have a different base than the CX but it should still be plenty fast.

Wind resistance is a pretty big factor and by my estimate can account for 3-5 mph when I wear tighter fitting outerwear. Headwind can account for 5-10 mph easy. Snow temp and wax choice seem to be pretty big factors as well. I actually get faster with mid and late morning snow than with first chair runs, with ~5-7mph difference here. 

Back to back testing with different boards seems to show little or no difference in actual speed although some feel very different at top speed. 

So a different board may be faster for you but without a way to measure speed it'll be hard to tell. Not a physicist, but more weight per smaller area should overcome resistance easier (and/or provide more friction which creates a more consistent water layer) and result in a higher speed, so again, not sure a bigger board will be faster. There are lots of factors involed so it's hard to isolate... 

I'd focus on wind resistance and possibly wax/snow temp. The method could be holding you up but the only way to know would be to do a back to back test with a good gps.


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## Argo (Feb 25, 2010)

What kind of vertical feet does your run have? What kind of slope? 

We have alpine race style slopes here that have 2500' drop on 30+ degree slopes they groom with winch cats. I can hit 55-60 on short bursts without much effort but I'm also 290lbs. My son can keep up no problem and actually wins because he sustains his speed longer. He is 5'4" 140 lbs and does it either on a 151 rocker/camber hybrid smokin snowboard or a 154 nitro cambered board. One of the girls I work with is an ex Olympian super g racer and gets over 100mph cruising down the closed course here.... its stupid scary fast.


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## lonerider (Apr 10, 2009)

WeekendWarrior said:


> I have been riding for 15+ years but have really been getting a lot of days in each season since 2006. My problem is this - I need to get a board figured out that can give me the top speed I am looking for!
> 
> I run into this problem consistently at Squaw Valley - when I have the need for speed I head over to Siberia bowl and just straight-line the chairline all the the way down. I have a buddy who is considerably less skilled that is able to keep up - even though I am straightlining it I just don't seem to pick up any additional speed past a certain point while he does. I know my speed is being checked by something, and I figure the board or potentially my technique at high speeds may be playing into it.
> :dunno:


Wait... is you question that you want to go faster? Or why can't you go faster than your friend?

It doesn't take that much skill to flatboard straight down a groomed slope (just when you make a mistake, the penalties are higher) - that's probably when your less skill friend is able to keep up with you.

Wind resistance is a pretty big factor (makes a big difference at over 65m mph). - that's WHY racers wear those silly suits (I'm sure they aren't thrilled about the fashion statement either... at least I hope not).

Board/dampness length does help as well (if money is not a factor... can't go wrong with Kessler's new "The Ride" freeride board)

Or... you could simply go to a steeper slope - Siberia is decently steep... but I even I (and I don't like flatboarding that much) straight-line most of that slope before pulling a loop at the bottom. Maybe try the groomed runs off of Granite Chief or Silverado at Squaw?


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## srdeo (Jan 29, 2012)

Every company's base is different but i thought burton has one of the faster bases. 

You could get a faster board but i suggest you try with what you have. How do you wax your board? Do you brush them before and after applying wax? what kind of wax do you use (brand, type, temp etc)? Do you use base cleaner? What temp do you use on the iron? what kind of iron do you have? Do you use at least 3 brushes? Do you have enough structure on your base or do you need to get a stone grind to add structure? How do you scrape wax? Is the base completely flat, concave or convex (use true bar to check) Do you allow the wax to cool at room temp for a long time? list goes on as far as tuning goes. Take it to a shop that tunes race skis. Full race tune will cost over $100 at least. 

If you are going with getting new board, you can get more of freeride/boardercross board. Out of non custom options, I think Volkl Coal and Nitro Pantera LX are good choices and they won't break bank. Both are cambered deck. F2 Eliminator WC is a good choice if you can find one and afford one. Other option would be to get custom BX board like others mentioned. Kessler, oxcess, donek, coiler etc make them. It will cost you tons and also they generally take alot more maintenance. 

Technique wise you have to keep your board flat to go fast. Any time you are on your edge, you are slowing down. Keep your board completely flat and in contact with snow (absorb all the bumps instead of getting air or bouncing on bumps). only time you are on your edge is when you have to turn.

I suggest getting a stone grind and have them add structure to the base (go to reputable RACE TUNING SHOP) then wax with high quality wax. If your season is done store the board in somewhere warm place with base side up (horizontal) and with wax (not scraped) so it absorbs wax over summer. You may have to add more wax over summer.


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## oefdevilvet (Feb 4, 2011)

Oh for the love of god, just ride.


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## wrathfuldeity (Oct 5, 2007)

I going to say technique and wind resistance...idk maybe better line selection. Skier buds just by standing up slow way down. My daughter on her board has some secret technique of lying her board flat and just takes off, its like hitting the afterburners. We have comparable boards and relative length to weight. In theory I should be able to go faster due to being 50# heavier; but we will be cruising together at mid-run and she will do something and literally just pulls away and by the end of the run she can have easily 100-200 yards on me.


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## poutanen (Dec 22, 2011)

oefdevilvet said:


> Oh for the love of god, just ride.


+1!!! I consider myself a "bomber" but to me that doesn't mean straightlining it down a flat run. Guess that's just not fun for me? I like getting a LOT of speed while carving on a fairly steep slope.

As for trying another board, different bases, etc. that's not going to really help if you're trying to bomb on hardpack. Like SJ10 said boards don't really make that much difference in actual top speed, just in how they feel at that speed. It's gravity vs. friction (wind and snow friction). Make sure you're using the right temp wax, make sure you're scraping it all off properly, make sure you're using a texture pad and feeling around for any rough spots after waxing.

Baggy suits flapping in the wind will slow you down some. You'll actually feel it dragging that body part. My last pair of pants were baggy and I could actually feel them pulling on my legs at high speeds.

Body position also makes a big deal of difference. It's hard to "tuck" on a board but there are ways of minimizing your frontal area.

I do question the need to "straight line" though... :cheeky4:


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## poutanen (Dec 22, 2011)

wrathfuldeity said:


> In theory I should be able to go faster due to being 50# heavier; but we will be cruising together at mid-run and she will do something and literally just pulls away and by the end of the run she can have easily 100-200 yards on me.


Not to start the whole top speed physics debate again, but that's a bit of a common myth (that more weight equals more speed).

Here's some science to back me up! lol and also what would happen to the OPs head should he hit a lift tower at max speed...






Here's a quote from this sciency sounding page here Heavier Objects Fall Faster : Top 10 Science Mistakes: Science Channel

"OK, trick question: do heavier objects fall faster than lighter ones? Today, we all know that they don't, but it's understandable how Aristotle could've gotten this one wrong.

It wasn't until Galileo came along in the late 16th century that anyone really tested this out. Though he most likely did not, as legend holds, drop weights from the tower of Pisa, Galileo did perform experiments to back up his theory that gravity accelerated all objects at the same rate. In the 17th century, Isaac Newton took us a step further, describing gravity as the attraction between two objects: on Earth, the most important being the attraction between one very massive object (our planet) and everything on it.

A couple of hundred years later, Albert Einstein's work would take us in a whole new direction, viewing gravity as the curvature that objects cause in space-time. And it's not over. To this day, physicists are ironing out the kinks and trying to find a theory that works equally well for the macroscopic, microscopic and even subatomic. Good luck with that."



If this were not true, all downhill skiers would weigh 250 pounds.


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## WeekendWarrior (Feb 25, 2011)

Thanks for all the responses! Regarding my friend - he is also probably 160-170 soaking wet and probably 5'11" so he is considerably smaller than I am. at the bottom of the face of the bowl it flattens out - this is where he catches up to be - he seems to be able to maintain more speed in the less sloped sections of the run dresite having taken the face slower. Here are some pictures to help you visualize the face:

















And a look from near the top of the chair line (not my pic, cant get it to display so you need to click on link):
http://www.flickr.com/photos/albedo20/4352406320/lightbox/

Video of me straight-lining the chair:





I think wind resistance may be a bigger factor that I was accounting for. The board I raide, Vapor Wide 162, has supposedly the fastest base that Burton offers in their lineup, so I know the base is not the issue. I bought my wax from a local shop and asked for the best Tahoe general purpose snow wax, but at this point I do not remember what type of wax it is (they gave me a huge brick of it from the shop!) Im still reading through all the responses and will answer all of your questions shortly.


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## lonerider (Apr 10, 2009)

poutanen said:


> Not to start the whole top speed physics debate again, but that's a bit of a common myth (that more weight equals more speed).
> 
> If this were not true, all downhill skiers would weigh 250 pounds.


That's not correct... because of friction. 

Heavier objects don't fall faster than lighter objects (in that they are accelerated by gravity at the same rate)... but lighter objects have lower terminal velocities (the maximum speed they can attain before the force of wind resistance balances the force of gravity). Terminal velocity is a function of mass (the heavier you are the faster you can go before wind resistance starts slowing you down). It's the same idea with surface friction on the snow. So technically weight does equal more speed.

If you have ever met ski racers in person... a lot of them are on the hefty side - especially GS and Super-G versus Slalom... actually the Austrians complain that Lindsay Vonn (5'10" 160 lbs) and Maria Riesch (6' 168 lbs) have an unfair advantage because they are bigger/heavier than the other competitors.

Of course racing is not just about going fast... it's about going faster and still being in control and when you are heavier it is harder to turn tightly (so obviously technique is a big issue... else why to Vonna and Riesch still do so well in slalom where top speed).


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## lonerider (Apr 10, 2009)

WeekendWarrior said:


> Thanks for all the responses! Regarding my friend - he is also probably 160-170 soaking wet and probably 5'11" so he is considerably smaller than I am. at the bottom of the face of the bowl it flattens out - this is where he catches up to be - he seems to be able to maintain more speed in the less sloped sections of the run dresite having taken the face slower.


It's hard to tell exactly from the video, but it looks like you aren't truly flatboarding straight down and it's clear your aren't tucking to reduce you profile to the wind.

You need to tuck more than as your bigger frame "catches" the air and slows your down more (your big baggy jacket acts like a parachute)... especially when there isn't much slope for your heavier weight to keep increasing your speed.

As for wax... they probably sold you all-temp wax... which is a general all-purpose wax. A racing friend of my has this stuff that he adds to his board before races... lasts for like two runs and costs like $5-10 a use (he calls it speed crack or something). Remember, it's not just the wax you buy... but how you apply it... racers often "hotbox" the wax into their bases for hours to make it soak in more (again it costs a lot of money)

I will be at Squaw this weekend myself! Good luck.


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## WeekendWarrior (Feb 25, 2011)

poutanen said:


> ... If this were not true, all downhill skiers would weigh 250 pounds.


Yes gravity operates equally on all objects - the only thing that changes is the inertia because once an object gets up to speed more force is required to stop a heavier object than a lighter one.


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## WeekendWarrior (Feb 25, 2011)

lonerider said:


> It's hard to tell exactly from the video, but it looks like you aren't truly flatboarding straight down and it's clear your aren't tucking to reduce you profile to the wind.
> 
> You need to tuck more than as your bigger frame "catches" the air and slows your down more (your big baggy jacket acts like a parachute)... especially when there isn't much slope for your heavier weight to keep increasing your speed.
> 
> ...


Yeah this video was not made when I was trying to max it out. I have really started doing that this year. The only turns made are the ones that keep me on the run as it curves slightly in two or three places. the last turn was made because the opposite side is all moguls. But I was definitely flat boarding it.

Regarding waxing - I generally work the wax in for about 10 minutes with the iron before moving on to scraping.


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## poutanen (Dec 22, 2011)

lonerider said:


> Heavier objects don't fall faster than lighter objects (in that they are accelerated by gravity at the same rate)... but lighter objects have lower terminal velocities (the maximum speed they can attain before the force of wind resistance balances the force of gravity). Terminal velocity is a function of mass (the heavier you are the faster you can go before wind resistance starts slowing you down). It's the same idea with surface friction on the snow. So technically weight does equal more speed.


Given the same size person/object sure... But I think most average humans are roughly the same density, so a larger person will have to punch a larger hole through the air (not literally! :laugh.

I think the ski racing analogy is a little off, as they are likely so massive (heavy) due to fairly extreme amounts of muscle mass vs. an average joe like us. Since they have to turn too, the tree trunk thighs they've got are worth the tradeoff in wind resistance vs. being smaller.

I think it's pretty safe to say that the limiting factor in snowboard terminal velocity going down a steep slope is probably about 75-90% wind resistance, 5-20% snow resistance, and 5% mass.


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## WeekendWarrior (Feb 25, 2011)

poutanen said:


> +1!!! I consider myself a "bomber" but to me that doesn't mean straightlining it down a flat run. Guess that's just not fun for me? I like getting a LOT of speed while carving on a fairly steep slope.
> 
> As for trying another board, different bases, etc. that's not going to really help if you're trying to bomb on hardpack. Like SJ10 said boards don't really make that much difference in actual top speed, just in how they feel at that speed. It's gravity vs. friction (wind and snow friction). Make sure you're using the right temp wax, make sure you're scraping it all off properly, make sure you're using a texture pad and feeling around for any rough spots after waxing.
> 
> ...


Haha, I love carving too, but some days I just want to go as fast as possible. Is it a shocker that I'm also into motorcycles (Supermoto ah yeah!). I agree that carving on the steeps is a lot of fun, but you got to keep things interesting every once and awhile. I like that feeling "oh Sh*t" feeling and the adrenaline that comes with it understanding the consequences of falling going 50+ mph.

Regarding the baggie clothing - I know, I have felt the flapping. It's a double edged sword though, your jacket can work as a great sail if the wind is coming from behind you! I just like to keep it steezy - sometimes I will choose form over function. :dunno:


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## Grizz (Nov 10, 2008)

In Spring conditions the right base structure can be more important than wax for potential speed. It's possible your Vapor has a "very fine" base structure and what you currently need for slushy Spring time snow is a "coarse" structure.


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## lonerider (Apr 10, 2009)

poutanen said:


> Given the same size person/object sure... But I think most average humans are roughly the same density, so a larger person will have to punch a larger hole through the air (not literally! :laugh.
> 
> I think the ski racing analogy is a little off, as they are likely so massive (heavy) due to fairly extreme amounts of muscle mass vs. an average joe like us. Since they have to turn too, the tree trunk thighs they've got are worth the tradeoff in wind resistance vs. being smaller.
> 
> I think it's pretty safe to say that the limiting factor in snowboard terminal velocity going down a steep slope is probably about 75-90% wind resistance, 5-20% snow resistance, and 5% mass.


I agree that mass isn't the main factor (if you followed the link I posted, the equation for terminal velocity shows that speed increases with only the square root of mass)... but it does make a difference - even a 5% difference means like 2-3 mph faster (enough to for one person to beat another person).

In the article I linked to, Lindsay Vonn is 160 lbs compared to Haus who is 130 lbs. Her body fat percentage is probably around 12% (female elite athletes are 12-20%, where as normal women are 18-20%, men are 6-12% for elite athletes, average male is 15-17%).

Also realize that a heavier person doesn't necessary have a bigger profile (i.e. the hole they punch through the air). If you can squat/tuck down a lot... you probably might only have about 3-5% a bigger profile, but you mass is 20-30% more.


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## lonerider (Apr 10, 2009)

Grizz said:


> In Spring conditions the right base structure can be more important than wax for potential speed. It's possible your Vapor has a "very fine" base structure and what you currently need for slushy Spring time snow is a "coarse" structure.


Good point... I just got a base grind with coarse structure for spring snow (and Mt. Hood summer snow).


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## Grizz (Nov 10, 2008)

lonerider said:


> Good point... I just got a base grind with coarse structure for spring snow (and Mt. Hood summer snow).


What a coincidence, that's where I'm at. People who ride Palmer all summer usually have a board or skis dedicated for that area.


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## poutanen (Dec 22, 2011)

Grizz said:


> What a coincidence, that's where I'm at. People who ride Palmer all summer usually have a board or skis dedicated for that area.


Wait, are you THE GRIZ? (see below) I thought you were a figment of the imagination of the people of Fernie? :laugh:


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## WeekendWarrior (Feb 25, 2011)

lonerider said:


> Wait... is you question that you want to go faster? Or why can't you go faster than your friend?
> 
> It doesn't take that much skill to flatboard straight down a groomed slope (just when you make a mistake, the penalties are higher) - that's probably when your less skill friend is able to keep up with you.
> 
> ...


Yeah, if you follow the chair line and stay right you only need to make a few small turns that require almost no edge if, and only if, it is freshly groomed. I like doing Granite Chief a lot to, but generally it is too choppy to straightline it unless you have a death wish! I'll typically straight line the second half but people typically destroy the top half of that run early on in the day. Silverado is also a lot of fun but my favorite bombing spot is definitely Siberia!


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## WeekendWarrior (Feb 25, 2011)

Grizz said:


> In Spring conditions the right base structure can be more important than wax for potential speed. It's possible your Vapor has a "very fine" base structure and what you currently need for slushy Spring time snow is a "coarse" structure.


this has been happening all season... but it has been unusually warm. Yes the vapor has a very fine base structure. During the spring I pretty much go for the park board every day because I always end up there once the snow is too soft for my liking.


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## Grizz (Nov 10, 2008)

WeekendWarrior said:


> it has been unusually warm + a very fine base structure


= Slow

Do you have a board you can dedicate as a Spring board (I wouldn't do it to the Vapor)? Coarse structure with a high fluro wax would probably make a difference.


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## Grizz (Nov 10, 2008)

poutanen said:


> Wait, are you THE GRIZ?


Get rid of the maple leaf and I look pretty close to the pic. Is it possible to be a figment of one's own imagination?


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## WeekendWarrior (Feb 25, 2011)

Grizz said:


> = Slow
> 
> Do you have a board you can dedicate as a Spring board (I wouldn't do it to the Vapor)? Coarse structure with a high fluro wax would probably make a difference.


Not really - but not out of the question. I'll start watching craigslist - I saw a pretty much brand new t-rice for $250 a couple weeks ago! It was sold in about 5 hours, but somebody got that board for a steal (pun sort of intended?).


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## Grizz (Nov 10, 2008)

If you're looking at Craig's list to find a board to be built into a Spring Season Bomber, another thing to consider is length and camber. I'd suggest upper 160's and traditional camber if you want to maximize speed over all other attributes.


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