# I really want to learn how to hop turn



## Guest (Feb 4, 2010)

Hey ya'll.

I'm a ski patroller on the Iced Coast, and would like to really get good on moguls and in the glades with a snowboard. Hop turns are crucial, so I'll take any advice I can get. A couple of the patrollers where I work have demonstrated hop turns a few times for me. I am curious about the real basics. For example, If I'm pointing downhill, the board starts moving, do you hockey stop first, then hop turn?

Thank you!!! Please post comments, suggestions and VIDEOS...

Jules


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## Grizz (Nov 10, 2008)

photonicgirl said:


> Hey ya'll.
> 
> I'm a ski patroller on the Iced Coast, and would like to really get good on moguls and in the glades with a snowboard. Hop turns are crucial, so I'll take any advice I can get. A couple of the patrollers where I work have demonstrated hop turns a few times for me. I am curious about the real basics. For example, If I'm pointing downhill, the board starts moving, do you hockey stop first, then hop turn?
> 
> ...


Start by doing jump 180s in the base area. Now take it to the bunny hill and do jump l80s with an edge change, progressively moving to steeper terrain when you feel comfortable.

But I have a question. Why do you think you need to do hop turns in moguls and glades? 

I think an arc shaped turn would serve you better in all conditions (outside of real steeps). It's more efficient to distribute the forces you are generating in a turn through the entire turn, than the on and off point loading that occurs in a hop turn.

The only time I use hope turns is when going down chutes that are too narrow to control my speed with a turn.


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## bufo (Feb 1, 2008)

Maybe I don't know what hop turns are... but I don't understand how doing flatground 180s will help you with them.


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## Grizz (Nov 10, 2008)

bufo said:


> Maybe I don't know what hop turns are... but I don't understand how doing flatground 180s will help you with them.


If you don't know what they are...

Hop turns on skis or a board is the same idea. You start with the board across the fall line, jump and in the air, rotate 180, land on the opposite edge you took off, and slightly downhill from your take off. Repeat.

By doing them in the flats it takes the edging component out of the maneuver and allows a nube to focus on the jump and rotation.


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## bufo (Feb 1, 2008)

ahhh... I get it now. Haha... at first I was imagining someone going in and out of switch for each mogul they encounter. That would be very impressive.


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## baldylox (Dec 27, 2007)

Grizz said:


> But I have a question. Why do you think you need to do hop turns in moguls and glades?
> 
> I think an arc shaped turn would serve you better in all conditions (outside of real steeps). It's more efficient to distribute the forces you are generating in a turn through the entire turn, than the on and off point loading that occurs in a hop turn.
> 
> The only time I use hope turns is when going down chutes that are too narrow to control my speed with a turn.



Sorry to contradict, I think you just don't realize how rutted out the moguls and trees on the east coast are. Even when we have fresh dumps the ruts make it impossible to carve a turn. Hop turns are a mandatory in many places.


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## david_z (Dec 14, 2009)

cifex said:


> Sorry to contradict, I think you just don't realize how rutted out the moguls and trees on the east coast are. Even when we have fresh dumps the ruts make it impossible to carve a turn. Hop turns are a mandatory in many places.


hop turns mandatory for riding moguls in Michigan, too


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## Guest (Feb 5, 2010)

The East Coast is tricky, thank you for understanding. And the chute video, EXACTLY what I'm talking about. Practice on the flats, weight, unweight, hop, turn. I'm gonna work on it today actually. 

Jules


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## Leo (Nov 24, 2009)

I like this thread. I had the wrong idea about hop turns. I thought hop turns are when you jump from edge to edge.

For example, when I am turning on my toe edge, I hop onto my heel edge to initiate a turn in the other direction. From the sounds of it and the video, you guys are talking about rotating only your tail end of the board. I was under the impression that it is a complete edge to edge hop.

Learn something new everyday 

So what would we call the thing that I do?


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## Mysticfalcon (Nov 27, 2007)

That looks like an exciting ride up in alaska. Not much of that on the east coast but we have trees trees and more trees in the glades so that makes for a similar ride. I never even realized I did hop turns in the woods till I watched some of my helmet cam videos. Kind of a subconscious thing at times.


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## Guest (Feb 5, 2010)

What about Tuckermans? That's too gnarly for me. Some of the slides in the Dacks are pretty crazy too...

I'm really grateful for the tips!

Jules


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## Mysticfalcon (Nov 27, 2007)

Ive always thought about going to Tuckermans but never wind up actually making it there. I would rather ride the trees anyway. Once the trees at Jay Peak get to beat to ride in the spring I am usually in summer training mode for wheeler racing.


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## Guest (Feb 5, 2010)

Back when I was a telly ho all I did was groove in the trees. Now that I'm on the darkside, regaining those trees are my first priority. I'm also on ski patrol at Magic Mt so when I get over there, I really hope my skills will improve enough for super tight glades and drops.

Jules


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## boardaddicktd (Dec 31, 2009)

hanging out with a group of skiers for a wknd will advance your mogul and glade riding skills in a hurry. thats kinda how i learned. i learned the hop turns in a hurry after falling run after run in triple black glades!!! needless to say by board got a lot of sap that wknd! sucked at the time but now i love a challenging triple black glade run!


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## rasmasyean (Jan 26, 2008)

Leo said:


> I like this thread. I had the wrong idea about hop turns. I thought hop turns are when you jump from edge to edge.
> 
> For example, when I am turning on my toe edge, I hop onto my heel edge to initiate a turn in the other direction. From the sounds of it and the video, you guys are talking about rotating only your tail end of the board. I was under the impression that it is a complete edge to edge hop.
> 
> ...


I think it's more of a "fast pivot" as well that's in order for moguls. If you are "hopping 180", physicaly that wouldn't allow you to "turn". Maybe if you do like like a hop 90...assuming you don't go that fast, you can change directions a bit.

But from what I've seen, most people pivot and swing their tails arround, in which case, it would help to weight more on the lead foot to allow free motion of the rear. That's the way I do it as well, and I don't usually catch any great air while doing it.

Maybe "hop turning" is more litterally applicable to skiis, but I did once see a sponsored friend of mine do moguls by "hopping" from one bump to the other. I don't remeber it being "180" but it was more like he was treating them as small kickers...but he was an aerial trickster so maybe it's something that is not norm.


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## Leo (Nov 24, 2009)

I've done those mini airs on moguls before. Not on purpose though :laugh:


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## rasmasyean (Jan 26, 2008)

Leo said:


> I've done those mini airs on moguls before. Not on purpose though :laugh:


Yeah me too. hehe. Usually when I'm skidding and the board slips off the mogul into the air. Ouch! But normally the only time I purposely catch any real air is when purposely going over the mogul top straight (assuming I saw a spot to land properly before hand). And always with moguls, it helps to see a few steps ahead because you can't really do whatever you want. The terrain dictates what you do.


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## Jameus (Jan 20, 2010)

A few years back I went for a weekend trip with my younger brother and a couple friends. My brother and one guy on skis and myself and the last guy on a board. My little brother has skied since he was like 5, raced in High School and was also an instructor. Following him around all day was ALLOT of fun! It totally pushed my limits but in a good way lol. The moguls were for sure the toughest parts. I found myself doing these hop like turns also since I couldn't go through with piston legs like I used to on skis. From what I recall I was putting the bottom of the board onto the front face of the mogul, on a slight downward angle so as not to completely stop. Then I would start transferring weight to the downhill edge at the same time popping up (unweighting) and rotating the uphill foot and hips so that the board would swing around and, with luck land itself on the front side of the next mogul. This particular run was pretty fricken steep so this helped me stay slow and steady without getting shot into the air haha. Hope the explanation wasn't too confusing lol.


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## jlm1976 (Feb 26, 2009)

*Confused...*

I'm kind of confused. So for beginner and intermediate trails, it's all about starting a turn with the front leg and keeping the back leg quiet but for steeps and moguls that swaps and you keep your front leg quiet and initiate turns by swinging the back leg around? I thought kicking out your back leg was bad?

Anyone ever try using both legs to control the turn for moguls and steeps such that the board spins around the center of the board through your turn? That way the whole board stays in contact with the snow and you can control speed through your whole turn on steeps and steer the nose and tail as needed through bumps.....


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## Mysticfalcon (Nov 27, 2007)

I find that steep bumps and trees all proper form goes out the window and its all about trying your best to get from top to bottom while having the most fun possible. And there is a lot of fun to be had. There just isn't room for proper turns sometimes. I will make some good turns and some bad turns in a steep glade or even a medium steep glad. The terrain really dictates how and where you turn so you kind of have to let the board and the terrain be in charge. If you try to be to bossy to your board and the terrain then you just get super exhausted.


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## rasmasyean (Jan 26, 2008)

jlm1976 said:


> I'm kind of confused. So for beginner and intermediate trails, it's all about starting a turn with the front leg and keeping the back leg quiet but for steeps and moguls that swaps and you keep your front leg quiet and initiate turns by swinging the back leg around? I thought kicking out your back leg was bad?
> 
> Anyone ever try using both legs to control the turn for moguls and steeps such that the board spins around the center of the board through your turn? That way the whole board stays in contact with the snow and you can control speed through your whole turn on steeps and steer the nose and tail as needed through bumps.....


I’ve seen those “initiate edging with lead foot” stories and imo, that’s mostly psychological. If you look at a video tape of the boarder, you will see that both feet do something pretty much simultaneously. 

The possible exception (that is rather moot) is when you are doing a crazy “cross-under” carving turn perhaps with a torsionally flexible board. You can lean the front foot first to “twist” your tip to engage the edge while your rear follows shortly. But the lag is like really small and perhaps only in like with super pros does it really matter how “long” this torsional bend of the board happens.

In a flat groomed run, many people carve by centering the weight distribution and just lean the body to turn. So you don’t have to always put the weight on the front leg. But when you are trying to do quick skids, it helps…because if you put it all on your back leg, you can’t move it! But as someone else said, beginner trails are different than glades and moguls and other advanced trails.


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## DiscoStu (Jul 2, 2009)

Snowolf thanks for posting that video.. I was eating breakfast it nearly made me sick. I had to mute it to stop that awful scraping-on-ice sound. Grossss...

When i learned moguls i put a stack of weight on my front foot and whipped the back around, my technique is a bit better now but it's as good a starting point as any i reckon. It'll teach you to turn faster if nothing else, which is a (big) plus for trees too


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## boardaddicktd (Dec 31, 2009)

DiscoStu said:


> When i learned moguls i put a stack of weight on my front foot and whipped the back around, my technique is a bit better now but it's as good a starting point as any i reckon. It'll teach you to turn faster if nothing else, which is a (big) plus for trees too


yea 

yea i agree-


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## Guest (Feb 5, 2010)

as ever, i would echo snowolf. rather than thinking of technique in terms of right and wrong, perhaps it's better to think of it in terms of efficient and inefficient, for want of better terms.

you can learn to snowboard by ruddering like like crazy with your back foot. you may find that you need to throw in upper body rotation and counter rotation to drive or off-set the ruddering motion. are you wrong? no. but you may find that you have trouble improving your riding and you hit a wall at a certain level. e.g. you will find learning to carve elegantly almost impossible and you may find you struggle on more challenging terrain.

further, learning efficient - or 'correct' - technique from the start is a lot easier than having to unlearn 'bad' habits later on.

alasdair


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## jlm1976 (Feb 26, 2009)

I think that torsional twist is used less and less to start a skidding turn as the rider becomes more advanced. It's a great way for beginner and intermediate riders to change edges but once you are changing edges across the fall-line, it becomes less and less important. During the turn it can happen, but it's more of a by product of what else is going on.....
As the terrain gets steeper or more irregular(ie moguls) torsional twist becomes too slow to change edges. On tight skidded turns on steeps, I find that if I use twist, by the time the edge is fully engaged the tail is washing out and I've lost a part of the turn to control my speed. By change edges with both feet at the same time( like a carved turn)I can move my weight downhill ahead of the new edge and immediately pressure the new edge(especially the tail) and control my speed right from the start. In bumps, for me, it's all about again changing edges with the ankles at the same time and using quick foot movements to navigate the bumps. 
Hop turns are really a last resort option. If you need them, you need them but there are often better, more "efficient" methods. Remember than any time your board is in the air you are loosing the opportunity to dump speed....
In my earlier post I was trying to point out that some people were essentially talking about kicking out their backfoot on steeps and moguls and I was trying(unsuccessfully admittedly, that this may not be the best option).


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## Zee (Feb 21, 2008)

Snowolf said:


>


Don't you hate when a slope goes from ridable snow to sheer ice like that. I like the comment on that video from some guy saying you can bomb that slope...


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## rasmasyean (Jan 26, 2008)

Zee said:


> Don't you hate when a slope goes from ridable snow to sheer ice like that. I like the comment on that video from some guy saying you can bomb that slope...


If you have sharp well maintained edges, that slope would be a lot easier. A stiffer board may help too. Always keep you edges sharp when you are gonna do these types of terrain. You base wax is not at important.


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## rasmasyean (Jan 26, 2008)

When you look around and see these advanced coaching bits like “racing coach” etc. you always see that they vary in opinions and forms and techniques. It likely depends a lot on individual, conditions, terrain, and equipment. Snowwolf, I’m actually surprised at your admittance that you would throw those taught techniques out the window after your cert considering most of your other posts seem like fixed steps in the form of dogma and that’s THE WAY and it’s your way or no way. 

Perhaps I have rode stiff boards all my life but I find it pretty hard to “twist” my board any notable amount unless I’m in a tail-press or something. So I don’t think these twisting techniques come into play in all setups…not to mention all terrain…especially mogul fields where there is no “carve path” no matter how good you are.

I still think it’s mostly psychological. Especially for beginners, it gets them to do something else like weight shifting (which is the major component of the turn). 

Like in this video, these are the steps …
(and I’ll put in a translation to what really happens):
http://www.snowprofessor.com/how-to-snowboard/beginner-snowboard-lessons/Video-8-C%20Turns.html

1. Press down on your front toes
(Physics Translation: When you press down your front toes, you weight the board’s nose. Hence it will point the nose toward the fall line.)
2. Then press down on your back toes
(Physics Translation: When you press down on your back toes, you weight the board’s tail. Hence you will start rotating the tail toward the fall line and skidding.)

When you look at the video, even though he is going slow, the board is not really “twisting” during the maneuver. The real action is the “fulcrum/seesaw effect” where the heavier end goes down the fall line. Also, it’s tough to assume that every beginner (or every one) has a torsionally flexible board.

So in order to apply “twist” to a board to make it “AASI efficient”, everyone has to have a flexxy board? And swinging arms and counter-rotation pivoting is the worst way to board ever? Even when rounding that giant mogul with the height and footprint of a 6 seat table? Or avoiding a tree? I think not! 

I first “winged” snowboarding with a friend and we busted our behinds but had a whole lot of fun. Then I read six books on snowboarding (from beginner steps to physics and mechanical treatments). So I made a point to understand what’s going on rather than just memorize “bend your knees 20 degrees” type of blueprints. The next time I went, by the end of the day I was doing double- diamonds falling only about 10%. It wasn’t a baby mountain either. 

I remember the ones I did…Ripcord and Organgrinder.
http://www.sugarbush.com/images/skiandride/trailmap0910large.jpg

Did I “counter-rotate”? I had to. Did I fall and slide down the whole trail my first run? Yes, , but I learned from that. Do I get tired while applying these same “bad techniques” to this day? Not more tired than everyone else.

And even a good friend of mine who was like a bullet rode a freeride stiff board. She rode this flexible board her hubby got her and felt she couldn’t hold an edge well at the speeds she was used to and it got her really tired. And being with her, I thought she was even a lot slower than normal. So is the ability of twisting your board really always “efficient”? Hmmm…

Regarding that “180 hop-turn”, unless you’re standing still, that requires switch riding skill (in which case, it’s not a “turn”). But imo, doing a 180 doesn’t always help hopping like 45 / 90, around a mogul or tree path. A flatground 180 is easiest to do when you do an off-axis slight nose press (a small nollie), and let the passing ground catch the nose edge to spin your board into a 180. Assuming you can land and ride switch, this takes the least “wind-up” when you are going fast and I find that when going fast, I can do this constantly without getting tired. And a backside 180 is done easiest with a blind landing. You don’t want to turn your head away from the direction of travel in moguls.


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## jlm1976 (Feb 26, 2009)

> Originally Posted by Snowwolf
> Take a hypothetical situation where the rider is coming out of a toe side turn on a 45 degree pitch and is traversing across a chute at a cautious, slow speed which is too slow to maintain a carve. The rider is pressuring the toe edge with both feet to keep it engaged into the hill. Now the rider needs to initiate a heel side turn. Unless there is enough speed to maintain a carve, the rider can not simply shift to the heel (downhill) edge without falling backwards after catching that edge. The rider must allow the nose of the board to pivot down the fall line as part of turn initiation.


 Only if the rider is sideslipping downhill will they catch an edge. If you finish your dynamic skidded turn and maintain pressure on your uphill edge with your ankle you can then move your weight downhill while using your ankles to maintain pressure on the up hill edge. Then once your weight is over your downhill edge you use your ankles to release the uphill edge and drop onto the downhill edge. As soon as that downhill edge hits the snow you immediately start pressuring it by extending your legs. Then you can use your front foot to steer the board downhill. This allows you change edges across the fall line and have your whole turn to maintain/control your speed without the board ever riding flat while headed down the fall line gaining speed. 



> Originally Posted by Snowwolf
> The rider will maintain toe pressure on the back foot to keep the tail of the board locked into the hill. The rider will then flex and shift his weight forward (move hips fore) and release the toe pressure he was holding with the front foot. This allows the nose to break free and drop down to ward the fall line. As this occurs, the rider releases the toe pressure with the back foot to allow the board to momentarily go flat based as it points down the fall line. All the while, the rider is increasing pressure on the heel edge with the front foot to steer the board back up out of the fall line. As the heel side turn becomes established the rider follows through with the back foot to maintain a heel side traverse and turn up hill to slow down the momentum from the turn.


Above is why torsional twist isn't always the best option. You are steering the board into the fall line without being able to control your speed right away so you are stuck scrubbing that speed at the end of the turn and putting a ton of extra pressure on your board at the end which can lead to chatter. Using the method I describe above, you are keeping that extra speed from ever developing. 

I do agree on your fore aft movement descriptions. If your weight is still forward at the end of a turn, it becomes way to difficult for the nose to finish the turn. 

On a side note, for the record, I don't ride hard boots. My avatar pic is in softies set duck(15/-9).


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## Zee (Feb 21, 2008)

rasmasyean said:


> If you have sharp well maintained edges, that slope would be a lot easier. A stiffer board may help too. Always keep you edges sharp when you are gonna do these types of terrain. You base wax is not at important.


:thumbsdown:



Snowolf said:


> That board is the Atomic Radon, one of the stiffest boards Atomic makes, it has a .5 degree base bevel and I put an 88 degree side bevel on it to create a very sharp 88.5 edge that is always maintained to remain sharp. That slope in that spot was pushing 60 degrees. I was standing upright with the edge dug in and touching the wall I was riding down. But of course I am sure you know more about Alaska than people who actually ride there....


:thumbsup:


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## rasmasyean (Jan 26, 2008)

Zee said:


> :thumbsdown:
> 
> 
> 
> :thumbsup:


Unless there’s something wrong with my English, I don’t see how my statements contradict what Snowolf is saying about his board. As a matter of fact, it looks completely consistent.

And these statements has nothing to do with our “tortional twist argument”…other than perhaps Snowolf for some reason seems to take any opportunity to take pot shots at my skill at some random opportunities besides the fact that there was no turning mentioned in my statement. Lol. And for the record, Alaska is not the only place that has a chute like that.


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## rasmasyean (Jan 26, 2008)

Snowolf said:


> It is true that weight distribution is critical; especially in the steeps. Weight distribution alone though will not properly steer your board. Take a hypothetical situation where the rider is coming out of a toe side turn on a 45 degree pitch and is traversing across a chute at a cautious, slow speed which is too slow to maintain a carve. The rider is pressuring the toe edge with both feet to keep it engaged into the hill. Now the rider needs to initiate a heel side turn. Unless there is enough speed to maintain a carve, the rider can not simply shift to the heel (downhill) edge without falling backwards after catching that edge. The rider must allow the nose of the board to pivot down the fall line as part of turn initiation.


OK, let’s take your scenario. Assuming that the rider is twisting his board…at some point in the transition from toe to heel (perhaps long-axis aligned with fall-line) the fore-heel is engaged while the aft-toe is ALSO engaged! After all, the fore leads and the aft lags right? What’s wrong with this picture? The tail is caught and can’t continue its swing albeit for a brief moment (depending on your “lag”). In one of your “perfect turn” scenarios in fresh groomers, maybe it would be nice to have this period of carving straight down the fall-line, giving the aft lag time to catch up. In less ideal scenarios, I personally prefer no lag in edging. I want a “continuous” toe to heel transition. Trying to twist to be “efficient” while not turning according to the terrain is not efficient anymore when you fly off the top of a mogul. It’s SLOW, and as someone else mentioned it’s prolly likely that when you go more “advanced” you can’t even do it. 

Besides, I don’t know about you, but I rarely know where the fall line is in most of these kinds of slopes. By “ruddering / pivoting” as you call it, maybe I can actually get to my destination faster dodging anything in sight rather than having to spot a carving oasis at the distance.


Snowolf said:


> Pressing on the toes pressures the edge of the board, it does not weight the nose. You can only weight the nose by shift your weight from your centered stance forward. By pressuring the edge, you are twisting the board
> This makes no sense at all. By pressuring the back toe edge, you lock the entire edge into the hill thus completing the toe side turn with minimal skidding.


I don’t believe they mentioned twisting but pressuring the edge can also be interpreted as shifting weight to that foot. The only way to truly “pressure” it is if you use gravity. Otherwise, by extrapolation, you can achieve the same results in that video by…turning via weighting the back while twisting (A LOT) the fore-foot on toe first? 


Snowolf said:


> If a rider were to twist their board so much that you could actually see the twist, it would be such an abrupt turn that it would totally flip the rider. You have to understand that these are very subtle changes in the shape of the board. Again, just shifting your weight forward will not complete the turn. If you do not pressure the edge, you will simply be in a pivoting side slip all the way down the hill. No one assumes all beginners have a flexible board. I learned on a stiff free ride board myself. You still use torsional flex.
> Now you are just being an ass and trybg to put words in people`s mouths. No one ever has said that everyone has to have a flexxy board. Yes swinging your arms around is in fact terrible form. Riders who use upper body movements to initiate turns are the ones who needlessly subject themselves to edge catches resulting from pivoting a flat based board while moving. Obviously there are times where counter rotation (more properly pre rotation) is exactly what you want to do such as in Mogul riding. This upper body movement should compliment lower body movements, not be the sorce of the turning force however.


In a “slow turn” if there was twist, you should see it throughout the C, but you don’t. To me I just don’t see this as having a huge effect (or at least compared to the weighting). But I’m not saying that you exclude proper lean from a board (flexible or stiff) while pivoting or side-slipping either.


Snowolf said:


> So here`s your e pat on the head... join the ranks of millions who did the same...
> If you read all these books, then you have forgotten much as I have several (non AASI as well) and every one of them stresses torsional twist.


You can call it an e pat if you want, but that doesn’t change the fact that something else works…perhaps for millions who did the same as you say. And during that time, whether twisting came into play or not, it’s very doubtful that all of them would have mastered this perfect turn technique that you would take so long to get right. Chances are, they just used counter-rotating pivots or simultaneous edge changes with more freedom of turning at the right places.


Snowolf said:


> Maybe you might think about trying to improve your technique rather than settling for the status quo....:dunno:


If I’m exposed to something that shows me it really works that well in all-mountain situations, maybe I will. 




Snowolf said:


> A pointless analogy really. Any decent snowboarder understands a soft board becomes unstable at high speeds while a stiff board is stable at high speed, but is a bit of a pain in the ass at slow speeds. You pick the right tool for the intended use. Even on the stiff board, she was still twisting the board. The reason stiff boards are better for speed is because the stiffness actually tones down the riders torsional movements so that it does not loose control. You try to ride a noodle down a hard groomer at 50 MPH and it is going to work you just to try to keep it under control. Do that same run on a stiff free ride board with a progressive side cut and it becomes stable and effortless. This does not mean that you are not twisting the stiff board, it means that those torsional movements are dampened to prevent over controlling.


You might be right, I don’t know. But longitudinal stiffness is more defining of a riding board I believe…in design taken from how a ski works. And in certain boards directional stiffness is not always the same too. Just a note.


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## rasmasyean (Jan 26, 2008)

Snowolf said:


> While I agree that extra forces at the bottom of the turn cause skidding, chatter and loss of control, I do not fully agree that employing torsional twist is the root cause. I just completed a relatively intense turn clinic where we really went into depth the phases of out turns. What really causes this build up of speed and build up of forces is the rider not completing their turns. If the rider want`s to eliminate this issue, they need to complete their turn and set up properly at the top of their turn. It matters not whether the rider is carving hard pack and making the simultaneous edge change or they are making dynamic skidded turns in powder.
> 
> I was doubtful at first, but as I did the drills and allowed the board to travel back up hill before the edge change and really set the edge before I exited the control phase, I did not build up speed and energy at the bottom of the turn in the completion phase. This was true regardless of whether I made carved turns or entered the turn slowly though torsional twist. What mattered was when I made the edge change. In either case, the rider should be fully engaged on their edge prior to the board pointing down the fall line.



“Setting up”… “completing the turn” all in the right place seem more like luxuries reserved for clinic sessions to charge customers for “drilling time”. When you are speeding down the mountain and have a vague idea of how that terrain is shaped behind a large bump, you don’t always set up or complete anything. Unless you are so precise and have a 4 GHz CPU in your head, you’re not going to always end on the dime where you want to turn to.

And I believe you are not being general about pointing down the fall line. Pointing in the direction of travel is more accurate, but also depends on the situation in non-clinic senarios.


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## jlm1976 (Feb 26, 2009)

Snowolf said:


> First off, don`t take my disagreement or desire to debate this as an attack or being a prick. I find the discussion with you thought provoking and it brings up a lot of advanced riding techniques that I think many people who are venturing into these more advanced riding styles can benefit from starting to think about....:thumbsup:


No worries there. I didn't take it that way. :thumbsup:





Snowolf said:


> The technique you are describing here is absolutely correct for dynamic carving and I have no disagreement with you at all on this. Obviously, the proper technique for carved turns is to change edges on the fall line. In a proper carved turn, an observer uphill should clearly see the bottom of your board. As you accurately described here, dynamic carved turns use this angulation of the lower body to manipulate the board as opposed to inclination of the entire body in a basic carved turn.
> 
> My only issue with what you are suggesting here is that by definition, in a skidded turn (dynamic or basic) there will be a component of side slip downhill throughout the turn. A sudden edge change to the downhill edge using both feet simultaneously has a very high potential for a bad edge catch on terrain where such an event can seriously lead to injury.


As you finish the turn you get rid of that slip and set your edge such that if you weren't to start another turn you would go into a carved traverse. This gives you a stable platform to change edges from. 
The movement downhill isn't nearly as dramatic as when carving mainly because you won't have the speed to maintain that kind of high edge angle on your downhill edge. Your edge angle is much lower, especially at the start of the turn than in a dynamic carve. 



Snowolf said:


> Now, I will agree with you that in a dynamic skidded turn, there is s very brief moment when the board transitions from a skid to a carve as it completes one skidded turn and travels under the rider, setting up for the new turn. My issue still is that for the average rider, timing this precisely enough to not make a potentially disastrous mistake can be a challenge.


Once the board is underneith you and you set that uphill edge is when you drop your weight down hill and set the downhill edge. One of the things to help this is a fast collapse of both legs to unweight the board to change edges onto the downhill edge. The timing can be tough, but I think it's something that rider's can benefit from.
Please understand(especailly the non instructors in the forum reading this) that I am not advocating that everyone start dropping their downhill edge in every turn. As I said, beginners through solid intermediate riders should be using twist to initiate their turn and edge change. 



Snowolf said:


> I highlighted this one statement because, to me it seems to contradict what you are saying. Unless you are torsionally twisting the board, exactly how are you controlling the board with the front foot? I honestly believe that even though in dynamic skidded turns, the edge change feels simultaneous and indeed is almost so, there is still a slight delay between the front foot and the back foot. I believe this is so even though the rider is not consciously doing so; the fact that the body is shifted toward the front foot, means the pressure change effects the board at the front before it does the rear, thus ever so slightly twisting it and changing the board`s shape ever so subtly.


I don't disagree that torsional twist happens through a turn. My point is in using it to initiate an edge change. My comment about steering movements of the front leg doesn't contradict anything I said because I said to start doing that after you've already changed edges. For me, I think about "swinging" my front leg and foot through the turn while extending my back leg. This pivots the board around the center. 
I agree that twist happens and is useful in all turns, whether it's a byproduct of other performances/movements going on. 




Snowolf said:


> While I agree that extra forces at the bottom of the turn cause skidding, chatter and loss of control, I do not fully agree that employing torsional twist is the root cause. I just completed a relatively intense turn clinic where we really went into depth the phases of out turns. What really causes this build up of speed and build up of forces is the rider not completing their turns. If the rider want`s to eliminate this issue, they need to complete their turn and set up properly at the top of their turn. It matters not whether the rider is carving hard pack and making the simultaneous edge change or they are making dynamic skidded turns in powder.


I'm talking about the building up/bleeding off of speed built up during one turn. Definitely finished turns, whether carved or skidded, is the best way to control speed. 
Setting up properly at the top of their turn is exactly what I'm talking about. 


If we were on snow, I could show you what I am talking about in a run or two. 

For what it's worth, what I am talked about I learned through my own AASI certification process including a a few weeks ago at a Level 300 Steeps class. In AASI-EAST, one of the Level II riding indicators is that the rider can set and pressure the new edge across the fall line before there is any pivot. 

Again, I am not advocating that everyone out there start dropping their downhill edge when turning. 
You can get a taste of what I am talking about by doing a carved traverse and using your ankles to roll onto your downhill edge and then back to your uphill edge.


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## Mysticfalcon (Nov 27, 2007)

Another thing that is related to this that I was thinking about today while riding my new Euphoria Split is the type of board you're riding. When I ride my usual pow board in the woods I tend to do a lot of hop type turns. It is stiff and long so it needs that to make the quick turn. With the new tapered fast turning Euphoria I found my hop turns were down to almost zero. That Euphoria actually made me almost eat it because it turns faster than I had expected a snowboard could without a hop.


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## rasmasyean (Jan 26, 2008)

Snowolf said:


> So you can`t walk and chew gum at the same time? As the nose drops, you are releasing the uphill edge pressure on the rear foot. You seem to have this idea that you need to swing the tail of the board around like a rudder. This is very novice, poor board control. In any turn whether skidded or carved, the tail follows the nose and the rider steers with the front of the board. I guess you are one of those winshield wiper turners...:dunno:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Why don’t you try to answer this again? *If your fore and aft twist lags, then at some point in the transition from toe to heel, the fore-heel is engaged while the aft-toe is ALSO engage.* This is what you are implying. 

How can you make a continuous transition from toe to heel real fast without getting the tail caught? That’s physically impossible. Everything happening “almost instant” doesn’t mean it’s instant. That twist doesn’t work in this case so in reality, *it doesn’t twist*…moving like what you want to call ruddering or windshielding to make it sound like it’s “beneath” guys like you. But in fact, you will do this yourself despite those times you think you are “twisting” you board.


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## QReuCk (Feb 8, 2010)

Rasmasyean: I believe when using torsional twist, there's actually one phase where the board is pretty much flat based under the front foot while the uphill edge is still engaged under the back foot (that helps a lot completting the previous turn, making the long axis of the board parallel to the travel direction). The moment after, the downhill edge is engaged under the front foot while the board is almost flat based under the rear foot, enabling the start of a nice, gently-skidded turn. What happens between these two phases I have no clue. I only know for a fact this is effective way to change edge at low speed on a not too torsionally stiff board with proper edge bevel and a wide enough duck stance. I believe the downhill edge under the front foot is somewhat pretty much parallel to the uphill edge under the backfoot, so no major edge catching has to be feared, but that's just an opinion, I have never measured actual directions for these. I also believe when using a large stance, you give more freedom to between-the-feet torsional twist, and this twist have more impact on edge pressure towards the tips of the board. I use to struggle a bit with this when for some reason I use a stance really narrower than usuall.

Snowwolf: for your problem of down unwheighting, that's counter intuitive, that's right. On steeps, you can make a pretty nice illusion by staying low and applying at the end of the turn some kind of on-edge ollie (more by sucking up the front knee than really pushing the back foot). Maybe not enough to stay unnoticed by your examiners (especially on less steep runs), but can be really funny and effective for you everyday riding experience, and helps to understand the concept of changing edge while being very low. If done right, the flex of the tail will send the board uphill while you don't really change the travel direction of your upper body (feels like up unweighting), but you don't need to extend your legs to achieve this (looks not to different from down unweighting). I don't know if that's considered OK technique by AASI but it's damn fun to do on a freestyle setup and I think it's efficient.


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## Guest (Feb 8, 2010)

Snowolf said:


> There is no decent rider or instructor anywhere who is going to agree with you that ruddering the tail is a good practice; it looks stupid and is a piss poor way to ride a snowboard; period!


this.

rasmasyean, you seem to be nitpicking for the sake of argument and, as snowolf is easily demonstrating much of what you are saying is open to imterpretation and much of it is simply wrong.

don't get me wrong - you are free to ride however the hell you like but a lot of what you are saying fails the idiot test.

snowboarding schools all over the country could make loads of money just pointing people down the hill and telling them to speed check and steer by ruddering the back foot. they'd get people "snowboarding" within about 90 minutes and could brag about their speedy conversion rates loudly. but this is not how professional snowboarding schools teach. why is that?

alasdair


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## jlm1976 (Feb 26, 2009)

Snowolf said:


> Along with this, we also have to get our flexion and extension rhythm in time with our fore and aft movements and board tilt / edge change. Ironically enough, this is the exact thing I am working very hard on in order to pass my Cert 2. I have developed a terrible habit of up unweighting to make this exact type of quick edge change we are discussing. It is a hard habit to break because it is effective and easy. Down unweighting feels so damn awkward for me and while I am doing it, I have to consciously think about it and by the 3`rd or 4`th turn, my timing is all out of wack.....:laugh:
> 
> Incidentally, do you have any tips for practicing this in order to get this timing down to where I don`t have to think about it? Currently, I am lapping blue terrain and making turns as much as possible in this manner, but I seem to keep reverting back to the damn up unweighting.


I personally find the term "down unweighting" misleading as it's more a collapse of the legs that brings the board UP rather than the hips down(at least that's how I think of it). Try focusing on collapsing towards the end of the turn and when you want to change edges try to raise your knees up to your chest to unweight the board. 
Get the timing down in big GS carve turns first then slowly work your way down to tight dynamic skidded turns. There's less going on in a GS carve turn and everything is slower(except for the transition but you have the whole turn to think about that). Once you find it there, move it into tight skidded turns. If you start losing it on the skidded turns, go back to GS carves. 
You know how when you look at a set of GS carve tracks there is a gap of a about a boardwidth where you change edges? A great exercise for working on down unweighting is to try to connect your carve tracks so there is no gap(or if you are feeling ballsy get the track of the new turn to start uphill of the end of the previous track) and it looks like one continuous line. 

My original intent in getting into this conversation was to point out that there are move options out there than torsional twist. It's definitely a great performance to own, but I feel that instructors over apply it. Just like everything we can do on a board, there are places it's great and places where there are better options.


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## Guest (Feb 9, 2010)

jlm1976 said:


> I personally find the term "down unweighting" misleading as it's more a collapse of the legs that brings the board UP rather than the hips down(at least that's how I think of it).


it's called down unweighting because the movement of your mass _down_ unweights the board.

alasdair


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## rasmasyean (Jan 26, 2008)

Thanks for the detailed description. It really helps. I see what you are saying and how this can be accomplished with twist. One note: At least at a decent speed, what you said would apply to the “direction of travel” rather than just the “fall line”.

My problem lies with this line…which seems kind of slow as you wait for the gentle transition.


Snowolf said:


> At the same time the rider does this, he gently releases the toe pressure on the front foot to allow the front section of the board to flatten out and the nose of the board begins to drift downhill.
> 
> As the board enters the fall line, the rider is slowly relaxing the toe pressure so that the board points down the hill without any component of side slip and is momentarily flat based. Next, the rider initiates a basic heel side turn by lifting the toe of the front foot to pressure the heel edge of the board. The rear foot remains in a flat, nuetral position.


It still seems to me that it’s an elongated way to achieve a compliant / efficient turn while sacrificing both direction change swiftness and immediate scraping off of speed. I mean, after all, even this thread is about that necessity.

I do see that this below can solve it to various extents.


QReuCk said:


> I only know for a fact this is effective way to change edge at low speed on a not too torsionally stiff board with proper edge bevel and a wide enough duck stance.


Like if you have a 3 degree base bevel, you will have a 6 degree twist leeway until you start to “engage both edges”.


QReuCk said:


> I believe the downhill edge under the front foot is somewhat pretty much parallel to the uphill edge under the backfoot, so no major edge catching has to be feared, but that's just an opinion, I have never measured actual directions for these.


Given the board’s flexibility, it would probably make it decamber such that heel’s nose->binding edge and toe’s binding->tail edge are parallel (at least with the ground at the moment), you are prolly right. In this twist, all other edges are OFF the ground. Both edges between the bindings will be like a DNA helix almost like making a squashed “X” when looking from the side. But what worries me…is that the toe tail’ s SIDE-edge is moving toward the snow during rotation. i.e. if there was NO twist, then this edge would be off the ground already.

Overall, I see what you guys are saying and how you can accomplish twist but beyond the relatively slow speeds and with a board that is relatively stiff (as for the rider perhaps) I question how much this comes to play. Because you also have to remember that your boots are soft…your flesh is soft too...and apart from the most fluffy powder, going at a decent speed will vibrate your board to the point where your tilt is flapping around randomly. As Snowolf even mentioned this “tortional vibration” exists and can be dampened by stiffness. Granted, that’s part of what hard boots are for. Now imagine if you’re not just carving, by skidding real fast. It would be nearly impossible to precisely control the twist consistently.

What applies more it seems is the weight-shifting. When skidding, you shift your weight toward the nose. This shifts the center of mass (CoM) (of the rider/board system) toward the nose side of the board. The momentum causes a net torque to rotate the nose forward and the tail back. Like if you’re standing still and someone clips your nose…you will rotate nose forward, tail backward…because of this momentum the rider transferred to you. Also, there is a distributed force (friction trying to slow you down) along the edges of your board right? On the nose side of the board, it wants to rotate the nose backward. On the tail side, it wants to rotate the tail backward too. So when you shift the CoM toward the nose side, the CoM->nose pressure profile is SHORTER than the CoM->tail pressure profile. The tail has “leverage” over the nose and therefore rotates back. Tail wins!

*Examples:*

How do you know this is happening in reality? Simple. Just skid and maintain a constant tilt. Shift your center of mass toward the nose and don’t even do ANYTHING with the tilt (no twist, no nothing). What happens? You will align with the Direction of travel (DoT) and enter a carve automatically! Assuming we’re not talking about like full stop tilt-angles…you will enter a nearly straight carve right? And at this point you can even do a quick tilt to heel, back to toe, to heel, to toe without catching. If you tilt with the board’s rotation right, you don’t have to wait a moment during the “align with DoT” phase and just go both feet heel and both feet toe simultaneously.

Another way to know this is happening? Not so simple but understandable. If your board is at 90 degrees with the DoT and you shift your CoM toward the nose while lifting the tail off the ground what happens? That’s called a butter nose press 90 or whatever. You effectively SHORTEN the force profile of the CoM-tail, taking away the tail’s leverage to a point where the net torque is ZERO. Assuming you find this sweet spot, it’s equivalent to having a tiny side-slipping snowboard with the contact length between the nose edge and somewhere between your bindings…and your CoM somewhere between that tiny snowboard such that it will create zero net torque. Shift your CoM toward the nose more, it will bring you -90 back to 0 (like the auto carve). Toward the tail, +90 to fakie.

In this video they do a bunch of 90 presses throughout but a good example is at 02:14, where you see this girl shift from tail press 90 to nose press 90 while shifting her whole body to one end back and forth.
YouTube - GROUNDTRICK MOVIE 08?09? SPRING SESSION

As for looking stupid, yeah…so sometimes I flail my arms like an “idiot” in my scarecrow pose and Snowolf snickers looking at me, but the way I look at it, what are my arms for? Putting your arms to the side is a waste of appendages. Counter-rotation, even a little tiny bit helps, especially in those huge steeps and mogul fields. Here’s a video on counter-rotation for jibs that is perhaps exaggerated in most trail riding but the principles still apply. You want a quick board rotation…you counter-rotate. It’s as simple as that!
Conter-Rotation:
YouTube - Intro to Jibbing Teaser from Snowboard Addiction

I mean carving through tough moguls fields along the fall lines…that actually fit your board…(more like fall-rise-fall-fall-rise-superfall-line in random directions) is something I’ve never seen myself, but assuming that Snowolf has (video would be nice), that’s equivalent of seeing inverted 1080’s off 60 ft jumps. Most people will NEVER be able to achieve this!


EDIT: I added something to the first Snowolf quote because I realized it didn't make as much sense because I initailly cut too much of his text out.


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## sidewall (Nov 6, 2009)

I would do tons of core exercises, that helped me immensely with hop turns. You can basically muscle the board around better and make it do what you want.


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## Grizz (Nov 10, 2008)

rasmasyean said:


> Now imagine if you’re not just carving, by skidding real fast. It would be nearly impossible to precisely control the twist consistently.


No, just takes practice. I think you may be struggling with the twist concept by thinking it is always used (it's not), how long it happens for (1/10 of a second?), and how much twist is occurring (a few mm). 

Think of the smallest, quickest, skidded turns possible. That's when twist is going to be happening the most. On the other hand... large, high speed, carved turns are going to have little if any twist. You need to apply the proper skill blend to achieve the desired outcome.



> What applies more it seems is the weight-shifting. When skidding, you shift your weight toward the nose.


Skidding can take place with pressure distributed fore, center, or aft, it doesn't have to be on the nose. It's a function of how closely (or not) the movements of the trailing half of the body mimic the front half.



> I mean carving through tough moguls fields along the fall lines…that actually fit your board…(more like fall-rise-fall-fall-rise-superfall-line in random directions) is something I’ve never seen myself, but assuming that Snowolf has (video would be nice), that’s equivalent of seeing inverted 1080’s off 60 ft jumps. Most people will NEVER be able to achieve this!


Not the best examples, but try these. If you have independent foot/leg action you don't need hop turns to make it through bumps. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=38TuCVBLIT4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c_6PSjS5lB8&NR=1


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## jlm1976 (Feb 26, 2009)

alasdairm said:


> it's called down unweighting because the movement of your mass _down_ unweights the board.


This is why I dislike using jargon like "down unweighting" or "cross over". You end up talking about their definitions rather than the movements the rider is making. 
Also, I still disagree with this definition. If I am riding down a steep making tight skidded turns or making quick snappy carves on a flat, my legs are collapsing at the end of the turn and the board is definitely coming off the snow. So what is unweighting the board?


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## Thad Osprey (Feb 18, 2009)

Ramasyean,

I am totally interested in your assertions/theories and am a huge believer in how science assists in the progress of sport - in particular, snowboarding. The intensive study of physics (you appear to be a consumate master), chemistry and biology have no doubt played an integral part to making all of us,faster, better and stronger. For that I would like to convey my deepest thanks.

One of the fundamentals in all things scientific however, is that the hypothetical, and those that are asserted to be true, are usually backed up by some kind of empirical evidence - lest they be unfairly dismissed and the propogator of such theories be deemed a complete tool (for want of a better word). Mr Wolf has fired the first salvo by asking for the books to be put down. I would caution however, that we not ask immediately for the "pound of flesh". Galileo was afterall unfairly put to a barbecue not exactly to his liking. 

Since the proof is in the pudding, I would very much like to invite you to enlighten all of us as to how the material/theories you have proferred would contribute to better, easier or more efficient riding. Perhaps you would be so kind as to post some snowboarding videos of yourself, your friends or by the proponents of the WWSI (the Windshield Wiper counterpart to AASI). These could be scenes of charging the steeps, floating on some light fluffy pow, or even careening down alternative chutes not within the vicinity of Alaska. Alternatively, if these be considerd a tad laborious, simple green groomed runs at your local hill would be greatly appreciated. 

I have seen many instructors, recreational riders and even Mr Wolf himself (on video) riding magnificently with the techniques he mentioned. But for the sake of neutrals like myself, Mr Wolf and Grizz could very well be preaching that the world is flat!! (Goodness me). For the sake of a more rounded worldview (pardon the pun), I would like to see more snowboards ridden with steeze and gusto with ample tail kicking thrown in, flailing appendages and minimized tortional twist. If these could come with detailed scientific explanations (pie charts, complex formulas and the like are all welcome), these would be even better. 

I have to apologise that amateurs like me do not have much to offer in a scientific debate and Mr Wolf has put everything more eloquently than I could dream of (with patience Mother Theresa would be proud of I might add). But it it is us amateurs, with the sponge still dry, that have the most to soak up.

To add to the scientific rigour of this discussion, I believe it is erroneous to use that jibbing instructional video to justify counter-rotation when discussing snowboarding turns. If you bothered to watch the entire video (which is on sale), and not the abbreviated introduction on Youtube (which makes me question the rigour of your research), you would have noticed a critical point raised by the eminent Nev Lapwood that you should not use any edge at all when riding boxes and rails. This in itself disqualifies it from being used in your argument on turning et al. precisely because turning requires you to engage edges and jibbing requires the exact opposite. Jibbing,I would venture, is a vastly different activity from this much belabored edge change and turning discourse.

Also, no where in the video is it mentiond that counter-rotation makes for a "quicker turn", nor is counter-rotation favoured over regular rotation. It is recommeded in the video because it helps to ready one's body for certain manouveres on a non-snow surface (i.e. tables, rails, roof tops, vehicles, stumps etc). All in, the swinging of appendages, along with most other techniques discussed in this thread, have their place as a "correct" technique somewhere in snowboarding. However, I am still lost as to where to place this whole windshield wiping business. Except for a car wash. 

This, is where you you come in.

With my deepest respect,

Master G


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## Grizz (Nov 10, 2008)

Thad Osprey said:


> *Post of the year!*


Thanks for the morning smile.


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## rasmasyean (Jan 26, 2008)

(double post...delete)


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## rasmasyean (Jan 26, 2008)

First of all, 1/10 of a second is a long time when we’re talking about topics like these. If you don’t think so, I can’t change the fact that I do.

And you guys can pick out part of my text disregarding the rest and put it down out of context if you want just for the sake of arguing against it.

And I did not make up this “physics” analysis myself. I got the principles from a snowboarding book a long time ago (One of the 6 I read that got me to the double-diamonds the next time as mentioned). The only thing I made up was the extrapolation to a butter move (I don't think it was widely done yet) which I simply applied the same principles. Though they did have diagrams and pictures that made it easier to understand and I’m sorry I’m not able to share that.

And you can mock all you want about scientific applications and all and act like you’re too much of a “super jock” to be concerned with all of that “techno-BS”, but the reality is that it applies more than you think. Many of the top athletes (like Olympians especially) have teams of scientific coaches with analysis equipment / computer models / etc. all working together on going for gold. This also contributes to much of the new equipment and techniques and such and advances the sport. There's actually a field for this called Biomechanics and Biomechanical Engineering...and a subfield like Sports Biomechanics.

Here’s a thought…you can’t apply twist on a ski like you do a snowboard right? How come ski’s are so good at turns and moguls? Hmmm….


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## rasmasyean (Jan 26, 2008)

Snowolf said:


> I agree with you to an extent here. A good friend of mine and fellow instructor had a real problem with this concept of "down unweighting" and started a huge fight with the examiners in a mock cert 2 exam. We talked at length about it and his issue was that you are not unweighting at all, but are simply sucking your legs ups to "unweight" the board. This is not unlike "sucking your legs up" as you go off of a jump. I saw his point to be sure.
> 
> Personally, I think it really just boils down to semantics. When a clinician or DCL or examiner uses this term, I simply see it as another way to say the same thing. However it gets done, it helps release the edge so the rider can transition onto the new edge.


Perhaps it’s “down” as in your body is actually falling down while you reduce the weight on your board. Going off a jump would be “up unweighting”. Except you would be in the air so the wieght is already gone. But if you are in the middle of a transition, like a half-pipe, you can “up unweight” for whatever purpose while still "weighting" on the snow? Maybe?

I do see his points as to how this is confusing as “cross over” seems to mean that your TORSO, is crossing over the line of travel. “cross under” seems to mean that your LEGS, are crossing under the line of travel. That’s what it sounds like to me at least. Maybe it means something else…


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## Guest (Feb 15, 2010)

rasmasyean said:


> Perhaps it’s “down” as in your body is actually falling down while you reduce the weight on your board.


there's no _perhaps_ about it. post #53 in this thread


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## Grizz (Nov 10, 2008)

rasmasyean said:


> And you can mock all you want about scientific applications and all and act like you’re too much of a “super jock” to be concerned with all of that “techno-BS”, but the reality is that it applies more than you think. Many of the top athletes (like Olympians especially) have teams of scientific coaches with analysis equipment / computer models / etc. all working together on going for gold. This also contributes to much of the new equipment and techniques and such and advances the sport. There's actually a field for this called Biomechanics and Biomechanical Engineering...and a subfield like Sports Biomechanics.


All I've got is a torque wrench that has been calibrated by top members of the state AND federal Department of Weights and Measures... to be dead on balls accurate! 



> Here’s a thought…you can’t apply twist on a ski like you do a snowboard right? How come ski’s are so good at turns and moguls? Hmmm….


For someone claiming to be into bio mechanics I'm surprised you can't figure this out on your own. When skiing you are in a more efficient position bio mechanically to move downhill and deal with irregular terrain than you are on a snowboard.


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## rasmasyean (Jan 26, 2008)

Snowolf said:


> You seem to have this obsession that there is a "one size fits all" method to turning; it is not so.


I already acknowledged that I can see how this works in certain slow maneuvers and whatever. And as I said, I personally am not convinced that twist has a great effect in situations requiring fast reactions. I’m here to learn too and judging by sources including some in this thread, I don’t buy it.

Doing a quick search I found this thread which argues about it in “racing coach forums” where one would presume they go faster and have to react faster. It doesn’t seem that I’m the only one doubtful of how much this technique contributes to your ride. It looks from this thread that some believe that the board twists by itself because of forces but it’s argued whether or not the rider is actually using it to advantage.
Do you twist? [Archive] - Bomber Carving Community

For example, here are some opinions that are in stark contrast:

_*philfell*
When your board twist it is caused by rider input. Vlad is right, no person on the world cup, that I know of at least, is actively trying to twist thier board in the way AASI focus'.

*Kent*
Basically what PF said......

Twisting is yet another silly pony trick developed by instructor geeks. It should not be a core pillar...or whatever they are calling it these days.

However, it is a very nice "drill" to help riders use their feet INDEPENDENTLY, especially on healside. It opens up the hip angle for people who are prone to counter-rotation. (Assuming your twisting is toe up front / heel up back on a heelside). The risk is that the rider will push their weight in the backseat.

Toeside it's pretty much moot. Concept doesn't work so hot on a race board riding 55-50. 

It's really just a dog trick for newbies to pressure their board while remained balanced.

Shouldn't be a conscious action......​_
Different strokes for different folks? :dunno:


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## Grizz (Nov 10, 2008)

rasmasyean said:


> Different strokes for different folks? :dunno:


For sure. But to elaborate, it's more like different strokes for different equipment and different desired turn outcomes.


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## SnowProRick (Jan 13, 2009)

Wow, lots of nerdy instructor talk going on. I noticed one of our videos was referenced regarding twist. Snowolf has covered (and covered) most of my thoughts. I will add a little...

When doing tricks (especially on rails/boxes), ignore all the basic beginner stuff. Freestyle uses different movements & alignments.
When talking about hard boot race boards, ignore everything. They are VERY different, and maybe 1% of the American riding public (on a good day). In fact many of the Bomber guys like our carving video because we are actually teaching carving.

If you want to skid a turn, twist the board. If you want to carve a turn don't twist. It is really that simple. Here's another example, when wide skis first came out, they were really bad a carving. This was because as you make a ski wider, it twists much more and much easier. A twisted ski (or snowboard) will skid, not carve. Now that ski makers have tweaked the materials and construction on wide skis, they carve great because they are torsionally stiff.

On a snowboard WE control the twist with our feet. Try this... on a green run roll into a basic carve (tip the board on edge with both feet). Midway though the turn twist the board with your back foot. You should go from a carve to a skid.

This year we have received lots of e-mails from people all over the world. One common theme is that the new riders from Europe and Canda who took lessons found our videos to be much better than lessons with instructors in their country. The reason being is that Europe and Canada teach the upper body turning method. It works, but it is hard/more work. My guess is some of the people that are against or not getting the "twist to turn" method are from these countries.

Here are a few comments:
"Thank you very much for your website.
It may sound like I exaggerate, but I went from struggling, to, if not ripping, then at least linking my turn nicely all the way down the hill all because of your videos.
I'd been up with a couple of times with friends. (You'll be fine!) and was given pretty completely the wrong advice.
After a couple of times and a couple of very painful falls, I decided a lesson was in order, but I think they misread my level and put me in a level higher than I expected and I spent the day becoming better at doing it wrong on runs that was steeper than I should be on.
So, I went home, looked at websites and videos and found yours...and I realized that I did *not* steer with the front foot but was always trying to steer with the rear.
Went up to my local mountain today (Cypress) and within 30 seconds of doing it your way, I realized I've found the right way. It *is* just like skateboarding! (Well almost).
I was expecting to spend the whole day on the bunny hills, but after a couple of bunny runs, I happily ventured out on the green runs and had a great time, rather than just trying to survive. It ain't fast yet, but it's reasonably controlled and most importantly, I'm enjoying it."

"A very quick email to say a very big thankyou. I'm on my very first
snowboarding holiday in Bulgaria (!) - it was cheap - and I found the
tuition completely at odds with the simple foot pressure method you've
outlined ... Lots of arm swinging and pointing was recommended.

I worked my way through your excellent beginnerq modules last night,
and today was simply fantastic. I made some very nice linked turns
with my armsheld at
my sides at all times.

Of course, I'm humbled by the thought of how much experience i need to
gain to be able to tackle any slope, but I'm really very grateful to
you both for setting me off on the right path."

"Me and my wife had lessons at beginning of season up here. then friend of mine suggested your website.
at beginning we had some suspicions regarding your method. The lesson we took was quite a bit different. 
anyway we had chance to put it in practice last week.

oh boy, it was such a fun and easy way to do it. we were kii

i want to thank both of you for such a free service u guys provide.
this is unbelievable. 

if you ever come up Toronto, ON please let me know i want to buy some drinks"


--rick


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## boardaddicktd (Dec 31, 2009)

wow this thread is still going?!


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