# Beginner request for clarifications/suggestions



## Old_Noob (Mar 4, 2015)

I'm a bit of an old fart, and not the most athletic individual on the planet, but I want to learn to board. 
I've been out 4 times; had a lesson on day one, didn't learn much. Found the videos at snowprofessor.com, which were very helpful, but there's no activity there so I'm hoping I can get some assistance here. 
Noob questions:

I'm initiating turns with my feet (push down with toes toe side, raise them for heel side) and getting comfortable linking turns on the greens with that method. I made it down a blue with minimal carnage, but it feels like I need to apply more force to the board than just using my feet on the blue. I read/watched some stuff online, and here's what I'm running into:

1) Intent with flexing/extending. 
I get the whole flex/extend ankle/knee/hip label for reduce/increase joint angle, but I'm confused with how to apply force to the board from each option. For example, extend knee...from a basic athletic stance, I could "extend my knee" to a) crush a bug or aluminum can under my heel b) jump to try to touch the ceiling c) flick my foot forward to kick a ball or toss off a slipper
Those would weight the heel, weight the toe, and rotate the board, respectively. 

Messing around, it feels like "flex knee" is supposed to weight the toe edge, but it's mainly because of COM moving over the toes. Conversely, "extend knee" weights the heel side, but there's actually muscular force applied from the quads down through the heels.
Could someone tell me what I should be trying to do to the board with flex/extend at each joint?

2) Applying force vs shifting weight. 
Right now I'm weighting toe edge by pressing down with toes (mainly foot muscles, probably a little calf). My understanding is it's best to avoid weighting edges by shifting COM because if you get out there too far, you can't pull it back. Is this right? Are the flex/extend ankle/knee/hip movements for steering (at my newb level) intended to apply muscular force to the board, as opposed to shifting my COM relative to the board? 

3) Recommended progression.
It would be great if someone could point to an ordered list of "learn to make the board move like THIS by doing THAT, then go to skill 2"
I'd like to avoid learning bad habits up front, the plan is to master basic stuff, layer on more skills once initial sets are down, and only ramp up hill difficulty as acquired skills allow.

Thanks for any advice/help/useful links you can offer!


----------



## Rookie09 (Sep 5, 2012)

Welcome to the forum! It would really help us give you good information if there was any way you could post of video of yourself riding.


----------



## speedjason (May 2, 2013)

Here is a very good video showing you how your hip and knee and ankle should work when it comes to carving.


----------



## speedjason (May 2, 2013)

There are two ways of switching edge when it comes to carving. You have cross-over carve transition where you shift your CG across the center line of your board to switch edges.
Cross-under where you keep your CG relatively stationary but you underweight the board and kind of jump onto the other edge (sometimes if the terrain is not flat you actually get some air over the bumps).
Maybe I am going too far with carving but you will find out the better you get the more caring you use instead of skidding turns.


----------



## mosf88 (Mar 1, 2013)

I started at 44. My advice, because it worked for me, is take lessons

My son and I took a lesson almost every time we went out the first year, and most of the second. You won't know that you are picking up bad habits without someone watching. You won't realize why your weaknesses are happening without someone watching. You may be ready for an intermediate group lesson, I did a lot of those.... group rates and very few people show up.


----------



## wrathfuldeity (Oct 5, 2007)

Also geezerly...started at 44 and now 57. Anyway just did this vid the past weekend for another formite. Its basically what I wish someone would have showed me when first beginning on how to move on a board. I'm self taught and the vid is a first take....so its pretty poor. Anyway figure its easier to show than to explain...hope it's of some use. Welcome to the addiction.


----------



## Old_Noob (Mar 4, 2015)

Thanks for the suggestions and comments. My wife took some video with her phone, I'll see if it's still on there. 
Is there a big difference between those motions for uncarved turns, or are the techniques the same with just a lesser degree of application?

I hear you on lesson suggestion; I took a group one on day 1 and got a solo lesson by being the only one there. The guy may have been a great snowboarder, but he couldn't teach for squat. The only times I learned were when I asked specific "like this or like that" questions. I picked up more watching 15 minutes of another lesson that afternoon...only to find out that was bad as well, as instructor #2 appeared to teach turn initiation through shoulder rotation...so I'm not too sold on another lesson up there.


----------



## wrathfuldeity (Oct 5, 2007)

One thing about being a noob, its hard to see...because you don't know what to look for and then there is all the jargon and its like wtf are you talking about. And then with all the clothes on and folks moving fast and you are far away, you really can't see the specific isolated movements So I figured doing the vid, with tape, minimal clothes and not moving...with minimal jargon and some explination of the isolated movements...it would be more easy for a noob to see and understand.


----------



## Old_Noob (Mar 4, 2015)

Thanks wrath, that's helpful.


----------



## mosf88 (Mar 1, 2013)

Old_Noob said:


> Thanks for the suggestions and comments. My wife took some video with her phone, I'll see if it's still on there.
> Is there a big difference between those motions for uncarved turns, or are the techniques the same with just a lesser degree of application?
> 
> I hear you on lesson suggestion; I took a group one on day 1 and got a solo lesson by being the only one there. The guy may have been a great snowboarder, but he couldn't teach for squat. The only times I learned were when I asked specific "like this or like that" questions. I picked up more watching 15 minutes of another lesson that afternoon...only to find out that was bad as well, as instructor #2 appeared to teach turn initiation through shoulder rotation...so I'm not too sold on another lesson up there.


OK I forgot the other key point on instructors.... at least for beginner/downhill/carving (i.e. non-park)... INSIST on an instructor age 50 or older. No joke. At my hill there is only one under 50 I'll work with but he is level 3 and teaches the other instructors. 

I have made an exception for park lessons but even then the instructor is typically like the daughter of an older instructor.

...and if you have another hill nearby that might be worth checking out just for their instructors. For me, I learned at Wilmot in Wisconsin. It gets a bad rap for being small with old equipment but the instruction my kids and I got was really top-notch.


----------



## handsomehwang (Apr 3, 2013)

Old_Noob said:


> I'm a bit of an old fart, and not the most athletic individual on the planet, but I want to learn to board.
> I've been out 4 times; had a lesson on day one, didn't learn much. Found the videos at snowprofessor.com, which were very helpful, but there's no activity there so I'm hoping I can get some assistance here.
> Noob questions:
> 
> ...


I had some trouble transitioning from greens to blues at first too. My problem was that I was putting all my weight on my back foot because I was scared of how steep the blue was so I was pushing myself away from how the run was trying to get me to lean forward. I figured this out because the board would squirt out forward from underneath me when I was trying to make the turns. You want to center the weight between the two feet which will make you lean down the mountain otherwise your front contact points won't initiate that turn.


----------



## wrathfuldeity (Oct 5, 2007)

handsomehwang said:


> I had some trouble transitioning from greens to blues at first too. My problem was that I was putting all my weight on my back foot because I was scared of how steep the blue was so I was pushing myself away from how the run was trying to get me to lean forward. I figured this out because the board would squirt out forward from underneath me when I was trying to make the turns. You want to center the weight between the two feet which will make you lean down the mountain otherwise your front contact points won't initiate that turn.


Yes when ur in the back seat...due recoil from fear anxiety...a natural instinct. What that does is weight the tail...and on a board the heavy end wants to go down the hill first. So with a weighted tail...the tail wants to swing around to be the first downhill...this often feels squirrley and when the tails swings...is when you catch an edge....BOOM. So to take the squirrliness out...just shift your hips forward toward to weight the nose and the squirrliness will immediately stop. This is a very useful concept to get nailed down...because you will be using it for toeside/heelside turn initiation, getting off the lifts, riding the flats...flat parts of the hill and yet maintain speed, for bombing groomers, riding flat based and for riding/skating 1 footy.


----------



## stillz (Jan 5, 2010)

Great questions. When evaluating technique, I like to avoid words like good/bad, right/wrong, and focus more on effectiveness and efficiency.

1. The intent is to find the most efficient movement to make the board do what you want it to. It's very much a feel thing. Experiment with those movement options you listed (a, b, c) and evaluate them based on efficiency and effectiveness. If you got the desired effect easily, you're probably doing it "right."

2. It's a combination of both. The board doesn't really care whether you flex it by shifting your weight or by muscular effort. If you apply x amount of force to point y on the board, it will flex a certain way, z, and draw a line in the snow. Ideally, you stay balanced on it while it does this. With that in mind, I'd suggest keeping the center of mass balanced over the working edge on the board, so you're allowing your weight to do some/most of the work (efficiency), while staying balanced on your base of support (snowboard). The more you lean your CoM out into the turn, past the board's edge, the more that variable snow conditions might throw you off. Small muscles in the foot and ankle can shape, finesse, and fine-tune your maneuvers.

3. This is where a lesson comes in handy. There's no substitute for having someone watch you ride when it comes to recommending specific exercises and progressions. It's good that you're interested in identifying cause and effect relationships, though. Just keep experimenting with that in mind and you'll refine your technique.

Hope that made sense and was helpful. Ask about anything that wasn't.


----------



## SnowDragon (Apr 23, 2012)

Old_Noob said:


> I hear you on lesson suggestion; I took a group one on day 1 and got a solo lesson by being the only one there. The guy may have been a great snowboarder, but he couldn't teach for squat. The only times I learned were when I asked specific "like this or like that" questions. I picked up more watching 15 minutes of another lesson that afternoon...only to find out that was bad as well, as instructor #2 appeared to teach turn initiation through shoulder rotation...so I'm not too sold on another lesson up there.


Was the first instructor certified by your country's snowboard teaching body?

I understand that in some countries, instructors are hired simply because they can ride, but they have no teaching experience or certification.
Insist on a certified instructor for your next lesson.


----------



## Old_Noob (Mar 4, 2015)

*Added video*

https://vimeo.com/121321816



Things I notice:
1) Rear arm hanging out/forward too much 
2) Need some more knee bend, less leaning forward from the waist
3) I tried to see if I could carry turns back uphill to control speed, but it looks like I was just setting myself up for unintentionally learning switch 

I know I'm slow (sheesh, am I slow...), but that way falls are followed by my laughing rather than the sounds of bones breaking.

Any other suggestions?


----------



## Old_Noob (Mar 4, 2015)

GreyDragon said:


> Was the first instructor certified by your country's snowboard teaching body?


I highly doubt it...there's no mention of instructor cert on their website. We'd had good luck and recommendations with ski instructors there, I called and asked if they did snowboard lessons as well. Answer was "yeah, we have some great snowboarders on staff". I remember thinking that just because they were great on the snow doesn't mean they could teach...

I'll look around to see if I can find a decent instruction source for early next season.


----------



## wrathfuldeity (Oct 5, 2007)

You need a bit more speed there (speed is your friend) to make your turns dynamic and then shift your hips toward the nose more, really bend the leading knee...and get loose and jiggliy. You are generally staying in the box and doing a good job. When you get fearful of the speed...DO NOT lean back...in the back seat...instead shift your hips toward nose and you will feel more stable...its counter-intutitive. You are doing great!


----------



## Jollybored (Nov 7, 2011)

From what I can see (and my [lack of] experience), it looks like you're turning with your rear leg. The turn is initiated from there which is why it looks to swing around.
@ 0:20 your front leg looks straight while your back leg is bent, pressuring your board to turn.

But as wrath said, it is easier to turn with a little more speed. Your body looks static. The knee bend should help with that in the first instance.

1) The usual trick here is to hold your pants
2) Yep 
3) Not going fast enough to go back up hill + you will need to be on an edge to keep the momentum. I'd probably try that a little later on. Instead you want to be traversing across instead of trying to go up. Wider turns will help bleed off speed.

I'm sure others will chime in if I'm completely off track


----------



## speedjason (May 2, 2013)

Old_Noob said:


> https://vimeo.com/121321816
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Bend you knees more.
Relax your joints because you are very stiff.
Look where you want to go instead of looking at the ground.
Go a little faster.
Make turns that does not involve when your board horizontal to the slope so you don't catch an edge.


----------



## Helix (Feb 23, 2015)

Old_Noob said:


> as instructor #2 appeared to teach turn initiation through shoulder rotation...so I'm not too sold on another lesson up there.


This is not indicative of a bad instructor -- it's completely valid when you're teaching beginners. Sometimes beginners focus too much on their feet/hips/whatever and the instructor just wants to get them to start feeling what it's like to turn. Telling them to open their shoulder and turn their body towards a specific point usually causes everything else to magically line up. It's not an 'advanced' technique, but it could actually be a good instructor starting small with students that need it. The most important thing with beginners is to get them having fun on the mountain, instead of being frustrated that they're falling all the time / feeling like they can't turn. I wouldn't evaluate the second instructor based on listening to 15 minutes of a lesson


----------



## SnowDragon (Apr 23, 2012)

Helix said:


> This is not indicative of a bad instructor -- it's completely valid when you're teaching beginners. Sometimes beginners focus too much on their feet/hips/whatever and the instructor just wants to get them to start feeling what it's like to turn. Telling them to open their shoulder and turn their body towards a specific point usually causes everything else to magically line up. It's not an 'advanced' technique, but it could actually be a good instructor starting small with students that need it. The most important thing with beginners is to get them having fun on the mountain, instead of being frustrated that they're falling all the time / feeling like they can't turn. I wouldn't evaluate the second instructor based on listening to 15 minutes of a lesson


Initiating turns with shoulder rotation is actually an old method that is no longer used, at least not here in Canada.
It was found that teaching beginners to initiate with the shoulders and then teaching intermediates to not initiate with the shoulders was confusing and counterproductive.

Initiating turns with hips is the new(er) protocol.


----------



## Helix (Feb 23, 2015)

GreyDragon said:


> Initiating turns with shoulder rotation is actually an old method that is no longer used, at least not here in Canada.
> It was found that teaching beginners to initiate with the shoulders and then teaching intermediates to not initiate with the shoulders was confusing and counterproductive.
> 
> Initiating turns with hips is the new(er) protocol.


Not sure on Canada, I've never taken a lesson there, but it's still used by instructors in the US. I'm not a certified instructor, but when I've taught friends I usually start with hips / knees and move to shoulders if they're having too much trouble figuring that out...most of the time it's because it takes their focus off their lower body (and stops them from worrying about catching an edge), and gets them to start focusing on where they're going. It's not for everyone, but sometimes ya just gotta figure something out before the person you're teaching gets frustrated and gives up.


----------



## chomps1211 (Mar 30, 2011)

Old_Noob said:


> I'm a bit of an old fart, and not the most athletic individual on the planet, but I want to learn to board.
> *I've been out 4 times; had a lesson on day one, didn't learn much…..
> *
> Thanks for any advice/help/useful links you can offer!


There has been a lot of good advice/instruction provided for you, and most everyone that has replied so far has more experience, been boarding longer than I have,.. (something to keep in mind when reading my comments.)

What I have to offer is that I am *also* a late booming, Old, un-athletic fart! Since I have only been riding about 4 years,..? I am maybe a little closer to recalling the fear & confusion you are experiencing as you attempt to get the board to do what you want it to!

I think one fairly important thing to remember as you ponder some of the more advanced concepts and riding techniques mentioned here,..?


Old_Noob said:


> ...*I've been out 4 times…..!!!*


_Four times!!!!_ :huh: :facepalm1: So _really,..?_ All things considered? You are not doing bad at all at this stage of your progression!  There are plenty of folks who come here after _weeks_ of trying to learn who are still trying to get past "falling leaf" and garlands! 

I think the most pertinent advice for you at this stage is Wrath's (…and others) comments about working on staying out of "the back seat!" 



wrathfuldeity said:


> *Yes when ur in the back seat...due recoil from fear anxiety...a natural instinct. What that does is weight the tail...and on a board the heavy end wants to go down the hill first. *So with a weighted tail...the tail wants to swing around to be the first downhill….


What I noticed in your video clip was, although you are not leaning back anywhere near as far as many I have seen,..? You definitely have your back leg weighted more than your front! 

As Wrath pointed out, not only does that tend to cause the rear of the board to keep rotating around and try to pass you by continuing downslope? By being in the backseat, your edges & contact points at the front of the board aren't making proper contact with the snow. So as you're trying to finish your turn and transition edges for your next turn, you have no real control. Your edges don't engage because you aren't stacked and balanced over the board.

We tell newbs all the time to "lean forward!" "Get your weight over that front edge!" Your front edges are where your control is to start and initiate your turns! Leaning forward like that, especially as you start to pick up a little speed, feels _VERY_ unnatural & scary!! So the natural reaction is to lean back, "recoil" in response and now, the nose of your board is unweighted and feels loose! 

This advice to "lean forward" is a bit of an exaggeration as ideally you want your body position and weight to be stacked evenly over the board and pretty much at 90º to the angle of the slope and your board. However, since the slope is angled forward, in order to achieve that 90º angle, you have to shift your upper body forward as well! (…again, this does not feel natural [or safe] in the beginning!)  So in the beginning it is sometimes helpful to get the newb to over exaggerate that forward lean to compensate for their natural tendency to recoil!

At _four days riding,..?_ Honestly? I would have been "thrilled" to be doing as well as you appear to be in this clip! (…that is not to say however that there aren't a _few_ issues you can begin to address!) 


Old_Noob said:


> https://vimeo.com/121321816
> 
> Things I notice:
> 1) Rear arm hanging out/forward too much
> ...


Snow professor has some good beginner instruction, you might also benefit from Snowboardaddiction.com's beginner series! I used them and found them very helpful! There are a few short teaser clips from their series on Youtube you can check out. (For the full tutorials, SA is a paid subscription or purchase site. still worth it IMO. They offer a 10% dic. to SBF members btw!)

Hopefully some of this will be helpful to you! You seem to be doing reasonably well at this stage. Just remember,.. the most important thing you can do to help yourself progress, is to get out on the snow as often as you can! Welcome to the Addiction!!


----------



## ashwinearl (Jan 19, 2010)

GreyDragon said:


> Initiating turns with shoulder rotation is actually an old method that is no longer used, at least not here in Canada.
> It was found that teaching beginners to initiate with the shoulders and then teaching intermediates to not initiate with the shoulders was confusing and counterproductive.
> 
> Initiating turns with hips is the new(er) protocol.



This is really interesting. Do you know when this newer protocol was started? The reason I ask, is in looking at videos at you tube, the CASI ones tend to have more 'top-down' style of turning, and AASI ones tend to be more bottom up. Though for the CASI ones, this tends to be more for beginner,early intermediate, and in videos of level 2-3 competencies it isn't as apparent

Also , when I look at the snowboard addiction videos and the snowboardprocamp, my guess is that they came out of the Canadian school.


----------



## ashwinearl (Jan 19, 2010)

There is a new video series from Thrive Snowboards on you tube called back to basics. It is only on the 2nd episode, but I think it is great for fundamentals.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9n_cwQLpo_c

I watch it and try to emulate stance and movements of the instructor all the time.


----------



## timmytard (Mar 19, 2009)

wrathfuldeity said:


> Also geezerly...started at 44 and now 57. Anyway just did this vid the past weekend for another formite. Its basically what I wish someone would have showed me when first beginning on how to move on a board. I'm self taught and the vid is a first take....so its pretty poor. Anyway figure its easier to show than to explain...hope it's of some use. Welcome to the addiction.


Hahaha awesome, I was giggling before I even started watching it.

I'm about 2 min in.
At first, I thought you were in some kind of suit, because of the tape.
But then you started talkin' about lining up & stuff.

Ah pretty smart.

But I had to press pause for a sec.

Wrath....
Why do you have tape on your pecker?

Hahaha, can't wait to hear this one.

Holy shit I'm crackin' up here.


TT


----------



## SnowDragon (Apr 23, 2012)

ashwinearl said:


> This is really interesting. Do you know when this newer protocol was started? The reason I ask, is in looking at videos at you tube, the CASI ones tend to have more 'top-down' style of turning, and AASI ones tend to be more bottom up. Though for the CASI ones, this tends to be more for beginner,early intermediate, and in videos of level 2-3 competencies it isn't as apparent
> 
> Also , when I look at the snowboard addiction videos and the snowboardprocamp, my guess is that they came out of the Canadian school.


The new(er) method was implemented at least three years ago.
When I did my CASI Level 1 six years ago, the protocol for teaching beginners was to initiate turns by shoulder rotation. By the time I did my Level 2 instructor course three years later, it had changed by then.


----------



## wrathfuldeity (Oct 5, 2007)

timmytard said:


> Hahaha awesome, I was giggling before I even started watching it.
> 
> I'm about 2 min in.
> At first, I thought you were in some kind of suit, because of the tape.
> ...


There was a twinky there but it fell off  

fo realz...thought about hanging something with a string to show how a person's center of gravity moves fore/aft and toe/heel


----------



## timmytard (Mar 19, 2009)

wrathfuldeity said:


> There was a twinky there but it fell off
> 
> fo realz...thought about hanging something with a string to show how a person's center of gravity moves fore/aft and toe/heel


I had to take off this morning, so I couldn't finish it.

Hey that's a good idea too.

Can't wait:dry: to see, er hear, yeah that's it, hear your penis pendulum theory

TT


----------



## wrathfuldeity (Oct 5, 2007)

timmytard said:


> I had to take off this morning, so I couldn't finish it.
> 
> Hey that's a good idea too.
> 
> ...


short version...ride how it hangs;... long version...you follow your penis around. And if you are in the back seat..:eyetwitch2:..you done :finger1: yourself:hairy:


----------



## t21 (Dec 29, 2010)

Nice tutorial vid Wrath, you know for at least a better entertainment,you could have used neon tapes then turn off the lights:happy: that would be cool to watch. Great job on your vid.


----------

