# Burton Corporate Changes



## poutanen (Dec 22, 2011)

backstop13 said:


> sucks their shutting down Foursquare, Forum, and Special Blend...hate to see people lose jobs


But if those brands were losing, it's only a matter of time, looks like this will free up some money to reinvest in their core business...

People forget snowboarding is just a business too, of course it's a sport/pleasure business so it seems like a lot of people get heated about anything they do, but it is a business nonetheless.


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## killclimbz (Aug 10, 2007)

Yeah, I can't blame the big B for doing this. They are huge, and in essence were competing against themselves in a lot of ways. Too much clutter. You have to clean house every now and then. Still sucks.


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## backstop13 (Jun 27, 2012)

poutanen said:


> But if those brands were losing, it's only a matter of time, looks like this will free up some money to reinvest in their core business...
> 
> People forget snowboarding is just a business too, of course it's a sport/pleasure business so it seems like a lot of people get heated about anything they do, but it is a business nonetheless.


oh, i'm not advocating that it's a bad business practice, just saying it's shitty news for the average joe working to feed his/her family.


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## poutanen (Dec 22, 2011)

backstop13 said:


> oh, i'm not advocating that it's a bad business practice, just saying it's shitty news for the average joe working to feed his/her family.


Yeah fair enough, my comments weren't really directed at you in particular anyway, more at the story itself.

If those brands were doing bad either other brands are doing good (and they could possibly start hiring), or those segments of the industry as a whole are doing bad (in which case it's time to change jobs).

Times change and people have to be prepared to change with them! I work in construction and things were slowing down in Ontario, I took a chance to move to a market with more construction opportunity and I'm doing well.

You've got to be prepared to either follow the demand geographically, or follow to a new career path. We can't have the status quo forever! At least lets hope not...


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## jdang307 (Feb 6, 2011)

I remember BA and Nivek proclaiming the end of Forum shortly. Here it is.

So what happens to their team?


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## duh (Sep 7, 2011)

Interesting development with some sad consequences for the shops who were already shipped product that Burton just publicly shit on today. At least Nike had the courtesy to not publicly acknowledge the death of 6.0 until the product was out of season. 

Also interesting is that on Transworld Business the story directly below the announcement of these changes is this:

We Live Forum | TransWorld SNOWboarding

"the WLF crew has the opportunity to help mold and shape three of the most iconic brands of snowboarding" Yeah everybody, get stoked, pump people up on the program, drink the kool-aid. After all if you do well enough you can help shape the future of these brands! Hah!


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## ThunderChunky (Oct 1, 2011)

Pat Moore to Rome!!!

Seriously though. I feel as though Rome is gonna jump on this. A lot of guys are gonna be heading there.


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## mjd (Mar 13, 2009)

This is not a bad thing for some smaller brands out there making killer products. Hopefully it will open up the market a little. 

Also heard Anon is moving out and absorbing Red. Gravis is closing down all markets and moving to Japan.

Quicksilver is letting DC snowboard die probably for the same reasons.


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## binarypie (Nov 29, 2009)

For the industry this is a good thing.

For Forum and SB not so much.


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## henry06x (Feb 16, 2011)

Really sucks seeing these brands go. I see quite a bit of forum around so its hard to see that the brand was running in the negative. I have a feeling it may have been like other big brands where it's running and making money, but its just not a big enough of a profit margin. I like four square even though I dont own any of it. I really like the style of most their outerwear.

If you look into the pro riders you can see a transition started a little if you want to look at it that way. Burton acquired John Jackson this year who was arguably forums best team rider. I can see pat moore doing the same transition and they he was left on forum for this year so they didn't completely stip the forum team before the brand shut down. I can see Steve Bell going to tech nine, they seem as they would fit his style. Others will find their places amongst other brands.

I'm just curious to see if a group of die hards will try to find some investors and try to rescue forum. The outerwear brands I don't think people will try to save tho.


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## BurtonAvenger (Aug 14, 2007)

ThunderChunky said:


> Pat Moore to Rome!!!
> 
> Seriously though. I feel as though Rome is gonna jump on this. A lot of guys are gonna be heading there.


Rome isn't taking anyone on right now their budget is tapped and I know that for fact. 

Here's the thing depending on how you read it. They're dead or they're up for sale for one more season and then killed off if no buyers. Burton is pulling back internally to protect the mothership and this is one of their lesser producing things. It happens it's business.

As far as the staff I think there's 5 guys working at Forum now Burton has already plundered people from there for the last few years. 

But yeah I called it a while ago that brands were going to downsize.


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## henry06x (Feb 16, 2011)

BurtonAvenger said:


> But yeah I called it a while ago that brands were going to downsize.


Sadly that makes sense when you look at the market. It's so oversaturated with product. You can still find some 2011 gear from less popular brands that has yet to sell, let alone the 2012 stock or this years releases.


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## poutanen (Dec 22, 2011)

henry06x said:


> Sadly that makes sense when you look at the market. It's so oversaturated with product. You can still find some 2011 gear from less popular brands that has yet to sell, let alone the 2012 stock or this years releases.


Unfortunately that's not true of stuff I want! Try to find a Burton T7 or C60 bindings anywhere... I tried last year and got nowhere on the T7 issue.

I think the market is oversaturated at the $250-$500 price point.


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## Bones (Feb 24, 2008)

I'm not really surprised. The big companies have been buying up brands for several years now and have been competing against themselves and/or saturating the market with product just to keep some of those brands going.

House cleaning is probably in order and may help everyone: Burton, independents and customers alike. I'd guess that, nowadays, differentiating yourself at the $250-$500 price point is consuming more and more of a company's resources. Maybe they've taken a hard look at Never Summer's approach (limiting production to keep prices up) and like what they see. After slamming the door hard on Sierra a few years ago, I was wondering if Burton was going to do something like this to keep control.


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## ThunderChunky (Oct 1, 2011)

BurtonAvenger said:


> Rome isn't taking anyone on right now their budget is tapped and I know that for fact.
> 
> Here's the thing depending on how you read it. They're dead or they're up for sale for one more season and then killed off if no buyers. Burton is pulling back internally to protect the mothership and this is one of their lesser producing things. It happens it's business.
> 
> ...


Are you talking about Rome in that second fragment? I am pretty sure you are talking about the Burton sub brands, but just making sure. Cause I'd have a melt down if Rome died.


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## Lamps (Sep 3, 2011)

Haha you are right, the high end stuff always sells out and then evaporates. The high quality stuff lasts and people like it so its hard to find.


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## Lamps (Sep 3, 2011)

poutanen said:


> Unfortunately that's not true of stuff I want! Try to find a Burton T7 or C60 bindings anywhere... I tried last year and got nowhere on the T7 issue.
> 
> I think the market is oversaturated at the $250-$500 price point.


Haha you are right, the high end stuff always sells out and then evaporates. The high quality stuff lasts and people like it so its hard to find.


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## BurtonAvenger (Aug 14, 2007)

ThunderChunky said:


> Are you talking about Rome in that second fragment? I am pretty sure you are talking about the Burton sub brands, but just making sure. Cause I'd have a melt down if Rome died.


Oh no maybe I am!


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## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

henry06x said:


> Sadly that makes sense when you look at the market. It's so oversaturated with product. You can still find some 2011 gear from less popular brands that has yet to sell, let alone the 2012 stock or this years releases.


Hell, hit up Sports Authority's "Sniagrab". You can find shit in there so old you'd forgotten about it. They must have a Costco sized warehouse they keep all that shit in then drag it back out every fall and see what they can sell to these idiots.


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## BurtonAvenger (Aug 14, 2007)

linvillegorge said:


> Hell, hit up Sports Authority's "Sniagrab". You can find shit in there so old you'd forgotten about it. They must have a Costco sized warehouse they keep all that shit in then drag it back out every fall and see what they can sell to these idiots.


They actually do it's down in Denver.


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## wrathfuldeity (Oct 5, 2007)

Almost irregardless of any industry/market, limited production of high end stuff is always going to sell to the core or folks with silly money. Its the second and third tier stuff that lingers and then gets dumped at blow-outs.

On the bright side, it can be an opportunity for more local/regional small production folks to do some stuff. In pnw there seems to be a few trying to make a go of it....perhaps more or beyond just the hobbyist level, but often times that's where innovation happens. And then you as a consumer can develop a relationship and have more influence that in a big corporate structure there is none of that and all you get is the shit they determine you must eat. Last year at the big race, I was talking to some Portland outerwear folks that looked to have some bomb shit and they were even willing to custom stuff and it was in line prices with the high end corporate stuff.


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## henry06x (Feb 16, 2011)

linvillegorge said:


> Hell, hit up Sports Authority's "Sniagrab". You can find shit in there so old you'd forgotten about it. They must have a Costco sized warehouse they keep all that shit in then drag it back out every fall and see what they can sell to these idiots.


That sounds like eBay and it makes me fuckig hate that site. Every time I try to look something up I see *PURPOSELY* miss labeled stuff and stuff with incorrect MRSP's. Worse part is that these are actual sports and ski stores doing this trying to take advantage of people who think they are finding a deal. I really wish eBay would put something on the site to report these people who are miss advertising their items on purpose. 
The last time I looked up stuff on eBay I found a set of 2011 Ride Deltas labeled as "Brand new 2012 Ride Dealta bindings" with an MSRP of $299 selling them for I think it was $199. The delta was dicontinued in 2010/2011 and in 2011/2012 the rodeo took its place. Then they had the MSRP at $299 when it originally was somewhere in the ball park of $200-$220. It was an actual ski shop selling 3 year old equipment for orig value saying it was marked down like 35%. 
I've also seen low end bindings marked as top of the line bindings and being sold at the top of the line price. The picture gives it away tho if you know what you looking at.


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## mrjimyjohn (Dec 18, 2010)

I didn't even know SB was run by Burton. I'll miss some of their stuff.


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## Ttam (Jan 20, 2010)

Haha I just bought a bunch of foursquare gear. Guess I bought it at the right time. Sad to see forum go...


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## j.gnar (Sep 4, 2009)

wrathfuldeity said:


> irregardless



:laugh:


sucks to see Forum go under, they should sell the brand to Pete Line!


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## SnowOwl (Jun 11, 2012)

Thread bump:

Even though the decision has almost been a year ago, this STILL makes me sad. Forum has been such an iconic and influential company for me. SO to celebrate my buddy and I went in on a Forum Youngblood Double Dog 154 :thumbsup::yahoo: So damn excited. Forum in the heart for sure.


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## BurtonAvenger (Aug 14, 2007)

2 guys 1 snowboard. I don't see this ending well.


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## SnowOwl (Jun 11, 2012)

BurtonAvenger said:


> 2 guys 1 snowboard. I don't see this ending well.


Haha i'd normally agree but 

1. He sucks 

2. It was in a mutual agreement to change off back and forth with my Lib...he loves mine for some reason

and I already have a couple of decks so it's cool


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## Alkasquawlik (Jul 13, 2010)

Who gets to keep it when you guys break up?


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## poutanen (Dec 22, 2011)

Alkasquawlik said:


> Who gets to keep it when you guys break up?


The lawyer.


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## ShredLife (Feb 6, 2010)




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## slyder (Jan 18, 2010)

that is just awkward to watch....:blink:


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## backstop13 (Jun 27, 2012)

tylerkat89 said:


> Haha i'd normally agree but
> 
> 1. He sucks
> 
> ...




are you the bear or the twink?


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## ShredLife (Feb 6, 2010)

backstop13 said:


> are you the bear or the twink?





tylerkat89 said:


> Haha i'd normally agree but
> 
> 1. *He sucks*
> 
> ...



pretty sure that means tyler's the bear... although i'm no expert.


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## backstop13 (Jun 27, 2012)

ShredLife said:


> pretty sure that means tyler's the bear... although i'm no expert.


good call...totally missed that part :eusa_clap:


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## SnowOwl (Jun 11, 2012)

ShredLife said:


> pretty sure that means tyler's the bear... although i'm no expert.


You guys need to keep up with Shred. SO that means the bear gets the board. 

and that tandem snowboarding...I'm going to try that this season. No ****.


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## freshy (Nov 18, 2009)

Were 4S and SB always owned by Burton? Those were always brands you could trust ever since the 90's and it sucks to see them go. Rather see Burton themselves downsize.


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## bseracka (Nov 14, 2011)

They were indy and sold to B a few years ago


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## freshy (Nov 18, 2009)

So is this just a shitty way to get market dominance? Buy up the comparable competition then drop them.


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## DiggerXJ (Apr 4, 2013)

freshy said:


> So is this just a shitty way to get market dominance? Buy up the comparable competition then drop them.


Sounds like an excellent plan to me! You don't succeed by being nice to your competition.


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## bseracka (Nov 14, 2011)

They made a go with them. There just wasn't enough market to keep them alive, same with forum. Any way you look at it these brands were going to die


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## hktrdr (Apr 3, 2012)

freshy said:


> So is this just a shitty way to get market dominance? Buy up the comparable competition then drop them.


No, it was Burton throwing these companies a lifeline and giving them a chance to justify their existence. Unfortunately their management never found a way to make these companies economically viable.


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## Lamps (Sep 3, 2011)

hktrdr said:


> No, it was Burton throwing these companies a lifeline and giving them a chance to justify their existence. Unfortunately their management never found a way to make these companies economically viable.


they apparently were trying to keep troubled snowboard companies from getting bought by ski companies, and put the financials second to trying to grow the industry.


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## BurtonAvenger (Aug 14, 2007)

hktrdr said:


> No, it was Burton throwing these companies a lifeline and giving them a chance to justify their existence. Unfortunately their management never found a way to make these companies economically viable.


That's not entirely true their Brand Manager was over at my house this winter after the plug was pulled and talked numbers with me. It was more or less highly profitable and they wanted to buy the brand back from Burton but Jake pulled the plug because the mother ships numbers are not where they should be. So eliminating the competition and cannibalizing the team/good people into the mother ship made more sense. 

It's business brands will come and go in snowboarding. Where's Joyride? Checkered Pig? M3? Elevation?


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## hktrdr (Apr 3, 2012)

BurtonAvenger said:


> That's not entirely true their Brand Manager was over at my house this winter after the plug was pulled and talked numbers with me. It was more or less highly profitable and they wanted to buy the brand back from Burton but Jake pulled the plug because the mother ships numbers are not where they should be. So eliminating the competition and cannibalizing the team/good people into the mother ship made more sense.
> 
> It's business brands will come and go in snowboarding. Where's Joyride? Checkered Pig? M3? Elevation?


Not what the guys at big B were telling me. Basically they were bitching that they were supporting the Team brands in various ways that did not show up in the numbers of the sub-brands but cost the parent real money. In effect, they thought they were cross-subsidizing.
I understand that some people had a different opinion (and I have not seen the actual numbers) but I think it is fair to say that the Team brands did get a lot of benefits from the affiliation, if not a complete free ride.


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## Lamps (Sep 3, 2011)

hktrdr said:


> Not what the guys at big B were telling me. Basically they were bitching that they were supporting the Team brands in various ways that did not show up in the numbers of the sub-brands but cost the parent real money. In effect, they thought they were cross-subsidizing.
> I understand that some people had a different opinion (and I have not seen the actual numbers) but I think it is fair to say that the Team brands did get a lot of benefits from the affiliation, if not a complete free ride.


when I read the previous post I thought the same thing - rarely to subsidiaries get charged full freight for the various benefits from head office and so they may look profitable but in reality they're a net cost to the parent


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## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

BurtonAvenger said:


> That's not entirely true their Brand Manager was over at my house this winter after the plug was pulled and talked numbers with me. It was more or less highly profitable and they wanted to buy the brand back from Burton but Jake pulled the plug because the mother ships numbers are not where they should be. So eliminating the competition and cannibalizing the team/good people into the mother ship made more sense.
> 
> It's business brands will come and go in snowboarding. Where's Joyride? Checkered Pig? M3? Elevation?


A 158 Elevation Movement was my first board. Still got it!


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## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

I figured Burton was just trying to become the Luxottica of the snowboard industry. You may think there's a ton of different brands of sunglasses out there, but most of the ones that come to mind immediately are all under the Luxottica umbrella.


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## SnowOwl (Jun 11, 2012)

linvillegorge said:


> I figured Burton was just trying to become the Luxottica of the snowboard industry. You may think there's a ton of different brands of sunglasses out there, but most of the ones that come to mind immediately are all under the Luxottica umbrella.


It's the fucking Illluminati. Mk Ultra. I knew it. Conspiring bastards.


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## Steezus Christ (Jul 29, 2013)

honestly, i feel as though burton never really tried to push for the program brands. they r the biggest brand name in snowboarding yet that never really seemed to influence SB, 4S and Forum, almost as though they planned to let it die and not do anything special with it. no new tech or innovation from the r&d team or anything. sad to see them go but you cant say it doesnt happen.


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## Nivek (Jan 24, 2008)

No new tech? Good Vibes was adopted by Burton as ReFlex. Tweaker in the boots. Grand Pops. ChiliDog...

And Burton didn't push them cause that wasn't the deal. Burton was sort of a silent backer. They bailed Forum out in like 2005 or around there and was basically an investor. The idea was to fund the brands and let them be run individually. It wasn't Burton's responsibility to make the Program successful.


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## SnowOwl (Jun 11, 2012)

Kind of how Mervin was bought by Quiksilver. The deal was the leave them to be Independently operated while being able to use quicksilvers extensive logistics and marketing. Win win.


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## Nivek (Jan 24, 2008)

tylerkat89 said:


> Kind of how Mervin was bought by Quiksilver. The deal was the leave them to be Independently operated while being able to use quicksilvers extensive logistics and marketing. Win win.


That is a much more concise and to the point way of putting it. Thank you eloquent sir.


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## SnowOwl (Jun 11, 2012)

Nivek said:


> That is a much more concise and to the point way of putting it. Thank you eloquent sir.


yessir :thumbsup:


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## DCsnow (Aug 26, 2013)

*Not surprised*

Not at all if you mind me saying that forum was sort of dying, and I could tell. The snowboarding community is going to change. B......


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## poutanen (Dec 22, 2011)

I'm not sure why all the worry. I loved my '95 Kemper Freestyle but they're long gone... :dunno:

The great thing about the free markets is that companies will come and go, and technology will advance. There's a lot of smaller builders out there now producing some great product if you're willing to pay the premium.


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