# What would be considered bad habits?



## Guest

Just signed onto the boards a little bit ago and I've been reading a lot of the posts. One thing I've noticed is everyone recommends lessons to avoid learning "bad habits". I'm mainly self taught (it came pretty easy to me since I spent most of my teenage years with a skateboard on my feet) but I'm curious if I've developed some of these bad habits.

So I guess the question is, what are the bad habits everyone talks about?


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## Mysticfalcon

Don't ride with your chest pointed down the hill all the time. Use twist in the board to make your turns not swinging your weight around. Basicaly dont ride like me. However in my defence I can still ride the blacks just fine and I always have a good time. I find my riding is slowly straightening itself out as I get better and better.


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## sedition

Wow, there are a lot. A few major ones that I often see...

(1) Locked front leg that that is used as a (or, should I sae THE) piviot point for turning.

(2) Leaning UP the hill. (Snowolf just made a great post on this in last day or two)

(3) Skidding turns, as opposed to cariving them. 

(4) Stiff legs and upper body.

(5) Hitting the terrain park, before you can hit a Blue.

(6) Leaning too much on the front/back leg. (most often it's the back)

(7) Not keeping board, hips, shoulders, and head on the same plain (i.e. center of gravity issues)

anyone else care to add...


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## Guest

+1 for pointing your chest down the hill. It's a bad habit of mine and it's leading to a meniscus injury in my knee (imagine the torsion to your back knee when you're ducked out and rotating your body to point downhill).


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## sedition

The other thing that is crazy...is how well some people have learned to ride despite having some of these habits. Iv'e seen people bomb blacks while leaning up hill, having their upper body facing down the hill the whole time, etc. What is scary is how much better they *could* ride if they just cleaned-up their form a bit.


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## Guest

oh ok, I understand now. How does anyone actually ride while doing those things? Guess my friend who first introduced me to snowboarding was a pretty good teacher.


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## sedition

VTpaul said:


> oh ok, I understand now. How does anyone actually ride while doing those things? Guess my friend who first introduced me to snowboarding was a pretty good teacher.


Go to any mountain and just watch when on the lift. If you know what to look for, you'll see it EVERYWHERE.


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## Guest

Hey, just joined this forum, found it when I was searching for tips on doing spins.

Anyway, just how bad is it if you tend to ride a lot twisting your upper body down hill. I notice that when I'm doing heel side turns its not really an issue, nor too much when I'm just riding strait but once I'm doing a toe side turn since I'm facing up hill I tend to twist around in order to see down hill.

Another thing I've become more aware of is skidding, what exactly qualifies as skidding. Is it any carve that you make where your edge begins to slide toward the outside of the turn, like instead of holding your edge into the snow it sort of slides?

Another thing is just how much do you steer with the front. When I carve (lets justr say toe side) I find the entire process starts with putting weight onto the nose toe side edge which makes that edge catch the snow thus making me start to turn toe side. The only way I can describe the rest of it is sort of a twisting motion is what occurs in the entire board which begun with the front toe edge.

The problem I find is that no matter what I always feel like I'm skidding when I'm on hard pack or groomers. The only time I ever felt like I was truly carving was when I went up to Vermont and they had like a foot of powder.

I guess I just want to know what it is that separates skidding from true carving.


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## sedition

Snowolf said:


> In a dynamic carved turn, the board is always in motion under a quiet upper body.



Karate is a great example of this. Watch someone (good) do forms, and their hips, shoulder, and head NEVER change or alter in height. Meanwhile, their arms and legs are going all over the place. Watch a white-belt, and their enite body is as stable as latte in San Fran earthquake. The same is true with riding...


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## Guest

I think I fit into almost all of those bad habit categories. I don't have problems getting down east coast stuff, and manage to do some small jumps in the terrain park, but I definitely need to work on the basics.
Question: when riding regular on the toe edge, I usually have my torso twisted quite a bit downhill so I can look over my left shoulder. Should I only worry about what's in front of my board and ALWAYS keep my shoulders square when doing general carving and cruising?


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## Guest

Snowolf said:


> One of the ones that drives me crazy is the notion that you "steer with the back foot like a rudder" absolutely horrible form!


uh oh... i think i kinda do that. Like when i do my toe-side, i lean into the turn. I'll apply some pressure on the toes of my front foot and then kinda swing my back foot down a little. At least that was what i learnt from my bf. Is that very bad? should i try to correct it and take a proper lesson


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## NYCboarder

good points


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## Guest

This past Tuesday I caught an edge on a flat surface just trying to make it past the cat walk. Pretty good speed.... I usually just rock back and forth from my toe edge to my heel edge so I don't get too tired on one or the other. I don't catch and edge that often.... just bad luck or is rocking back and forth bad? It was also a new board with really sharp edges but I went all day without any trouble.

When I say rock back and forth I mean I'll stay on my heel a good 8 seconds or so and toe 8 seconds or so.


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## Guest

Wicked: I don't do this, but it has been recommended to someone before. In a situation like that ride with one foot twisted toe and the other heel, so you are riding on both edges. I'm not quite sure if theres anything more to it. I'm sure Snowolf will be back in here and be able to elaborate.


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## Guest

WickedWheat said:


> When I say rock back and forth I mean I'll stay on my heel a good 8 seconds or so and toe 8 seconds or so.


I do this also,is it right?

Also,what about riding flat?I know you shouldn't when just starting,but i've found that it is so much more comfy(as long as I don't catch an edge!)


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## Guest

Thanks Snowolf!:thumbsup:


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## sedition

VTpaul said:


> So I guess the question is, what are the bad habits everyone talks about?


curse words, gambling, satanism, poetry, whiskey, women, rock and roll...

:cheeky4:


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## sedition

haha....that'a not a "habit" that is a nerotic tendency / mental illness.


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## Guest

I've never even heard of anyone riding on both edges. Seems kind of tough but I'll give it a try Thur.


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## Guest

I never saw this thread before! For those who are wondering about the bad traits, read my thread in the snowboarding chat section.... highlights what happened when I employed a LOT of these bad habits (I'm still quite new, but taking lessons), and how things dramatically improved after I caught myself and stopped doing them.


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## Guest

Thanks for the tip snowwolf.


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## Guest

I only attempted to ride on both edges when I was slow rolling it. It didn't feel very comfortable as the board tended to start to slide towards catching an edge.


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## Guest

So I've been really working on keeping my body over the board,keeping my shoulders in line with the board,and using my head to look downhill.For some reason,the nose of my board likes to move left/right(not alot,but enough to feel kind of out of control) while I'm riding.I really feel like I'm over the board,but my buddy thinks I might still be leaning back a bit.

I ride a 158 at 21",+15/0 alomst even with maybe a little more tip.

Any ideas?


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## Guest

I think I have this weird feeling that if I put weight on the front foot and use it to turn,my edge is going to catch causing me to endo or something.I'm self taught,so I think I still use my back foot as a rudder

Thanks for the help,Wolf...I'll work on that this week.


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## NYCboarder

one bad habbit i have = putting my hands out when i fall... (my wrists are killig me this morning)


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## Nito

Snowolf said:


> The dreaded "gorilla stance" those people who bomb the hill and because they have`nt learned good control, are hunched way over dragging their hands in the snow almost.
> 
> Riding counter rotated all the time (facing forward with their upper body twisted as opposed to turning just their head)


I agree that the gorilla/gunslinger stance is a bad habit. Unfortunately, in an old instructional video they actual taught to keep both hands forward, chest downhill, and to point with the knees. Luckily, later in my first season, an experienced rider told me to point with my hip and squeeze my knees together.

Nito


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## NYCboarder

what do you mean point with you hip an squeeze knees together?
and what does this help with?


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## Guest

I finally got out again and worked on keeping my shoulders in line with the board and only turning my head - what a difference. It felt a bit weird at first, but I was more stable on the flats and actually carved instead of skidded when going for speed.

I shifted my stance to be a bit more narrow (just barely more than shoulder width now). But this squeezing the knees together, what is that about? Mine do that by themselves I think, I'm about as bow-legged as they come :laugh:


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## Nito

Snowolf said:


> Pointing with the hip simply means that you rotate your hips a little to initiate turns. If going toeside, you would shift your hips a little so that you point your leading hip toward the toe edge of the board. Squeezing the knees together is something I am not familiar with, but have also heard the term.....:dunno:


Hi Snowolf,

I squeeze my knees together to flex the board. For example, after I initiate my turn, if I want to reduce my turning radius I squeeze my knee to flex the board more.

BTW, my angles are 12/3 but some friends do this riding duck.

If this is a bad technique, please let us know.

Thanks - Nito


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## SpAcEmAn SpLiFF

i have a habit of sticking out my hand when i turn toeside (like as if i was preparing to catch myself if i fall). sometimes, i lean enough that my fingers drag into the snow. i feel like one of these days, im probably gonna fall on my hand and its gonna hurt my fingers/wrist like a mofo.

is this bad form?


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## scottland

When I'm playing around with real sharp toeside turns, I drag my hand in the snow for fun =/ But i guess that's something different =p


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## Guest

scottland said:


> When I'm playing around with real sharp toeside turns, I drag my hand in the snow for fun =/ But i guess that's something different =p


agreed lol... its definitely fun if ur in powder especially...


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## Guest

SpAcEmAn SpLiFF said:


> i have a habit of sticking out my hand when i turn toeside (like as if i was preparing to catch myself if i fall). sometimes, i lean enough that my fingers drag into the snow. i feel like one of these days, im probably gonna fall on my hand and its gonna hurt my fingers/wrist like a mofo.
> 
> is this bad form?


Maybe bad form, but definitely bad from a safety standpoint, especially if on ice. As one who habitually sticks his hands out to break his fall, like the idiot he is, I must recommend against doing so if for the sake of balance/concern at falling. If it's all style and you're comfortable you won't fall, have at it, but just know that we you fall, you want to tuck those arms, or at least fall on the whole of the forearm, putting no torque on the wrist.
Trust me, I just fractured my wrist 3 weeks ago - I would take 100 body shots from the same fall if I could take back that mistake. I've still kept on snowboarding, but I'm very limited in what I am willing to do since a fall at this point could mean disaster. Knees and wrists are the big things to worry about in normal riding (if you wear a helmet of course).


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## SpAcEmAn SpLiFF

TNT said:


> Maybe bad form, but definitely bad from a safety standpoint, especially if on ice. As one who habitually sticks his hands out to break his fall, like the idiot he is, I must recommend against doing so if for the sake of balance/concern at falling. If it's all style and you're comfortable you won't fall, have at it, but just know that we you fall, you want to tuck those arms, or at least fall on the whole of the forearm, putting no torque on the wrist.
> Trust me, I just fractured my wrist 3 weeks ago - I would take 100 body shots from the same fall if I could take back that mistake. I've still kept on snowboarding, but I'm very limited in what I am willing to do since a fall at this point could mean disaster. Knees and wrists are the big things to worry about in normal riding (if you wear a helmet of course).


i actually have really bad wrists from riding too, but im pretty good now. ive been doin it for 6 or 7 years and ive gotten into a good habit of "rolling" into my falls, so i rarely try to catch my fall with my hands/wrists.

the funny thing is when i wasnt as good, id see all these people that were way better than me carving really hard and doing what i do, and i thought to myself "im never gonna do that, it could be so potentially dangerous for your wrists", and somehow i developed this habit by accident without even thinking about it. i always thought they just did it because it looked cool, but im definately not doing this for style


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## Guest

I have no idea if I have any bad habits, but I remember after my first season someone told me to stay on my front foot when initiating turns and that corrected a huge bad habit. I was also a whole lot less tired in my quads after a day of riding after learning that little gem. I've been snowboarding for almost 4 seasons now, and I do a decent job in some pretty advanced terrain, but I've never taken any kind of a formal lesson. Should I consider taking an advanced lesson some time just to see if I can improve my technique at all?


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## laz167

SpAcEmAn SpLiFF said:


> i have a habit of sticking out my hand when i turn toeside (like as if i was preparing to catch myself if i fall). sometimes, i lean enough that my fingers drag into the snow. i feel like one of these days, im probably gonna fall on my hand and its gonna hurt my fingers/wrist like a mofo.
> 
> is this bad form?


I wouldnt say its bad form, but actually last week my Gf and I spent the week in stratton and we decided to take lessons to eliminate bad habits or forms.My gf apperently had the habit of having her back hand flapping around, the instructor told her to place her back hand by her crotch (yeah like if you had to pee) and it seemed to work for her.


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## Guest

sedition said:


> (5) Hitting the terrain park, before you can hit a Blue.


I agree with them all except for #5.
This is not entirely true.
I pretty much started on terrain parks.
I mean besides the dozen or so greens.

it just depends on where your at and what kind of natural ability you have,


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## sedition

Andrew said:


> it just depends on where your at and what kind of natural ability you have,


Walk before you run.


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## Guest

laz167 said:


> I wouldnt say its bad form, but actually last week my Gf and I spent the week in stratton and we decided to take lessons to eliminate bad habits or forms.My gf apperently had the habit of having her back hand flapping around, the instructor told her to place her back hand by her crotch (yeah like if you had to pee) and it seemed to work for her.


That's a good tip about putting your back hand somewhere in front of and close to your body. I tend to let my back hand flap around as well, and a few weeks ago I hit an unexpected patch of ice on some pretty steep terrain. My legs flew out from under me, and I fell backwards. My hand ended up getting crunched between my tailbone and the hard ice. I thought it was broken as I sat on the side of the trail looking at the big red bulge that grew from my hand. Luckily it wasn't. But I think I finally learned my lesson in regards to my back hand.


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## gravityhomer

Just wanted to say that I joined this forum because of this thread. Thanks for all of the great tips. I've only snowboarded 4 times, and the last time I felt I really got the hang of it, and didn't fall once. But now from reading this I think that I just mastered a lot of bad habits. Using my back foot and upper body to turn. Doing nothing but skidding turns, and turning my upper body down the hill. I can't wait to get back out and try to do some of things talked about here.
Thanks for the great site.


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## sedition

gravityhomer said:


> Just wanted to say that I joined this forum because of this thread. Thanks for all of the great tips. I've only snowboarded 4 times, and the last time I felt I really got the hang of it, and didn't fall once. But now from reading this I think that I just mastered a lot of bad habits. Using my back foot and upper body to turn. Doing nothing but skidding turns, and turning my upper body down the hill. I can't wait to get back out and try to do some of things talked about here.
> Thanks for the great site.



Welcome aboard. And once you START falling, then you'll know your also really starting to PROGRESS.


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## Guest

I don't think I have any bad habits that I know of.


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## Guest

Guys, is 'pedaling' what is meant by pressuring the front foot either heel/toe to initiate the turn, followed by pressuring the rear foot the same way? I found my turns worked so much slicker by pressuring the front and creating a torsion on the board by initially keeping the pressure on the rear foot on the opposite edge, then changing the rear foot to the new edge after the turn had been initiated. Nobody's really taught me this per se, but it felt very natural and just kinda happened.


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## Guest

a good excercise to advoid starting a turn with your upper body is to hole tightly on your pockets. If you keep your hands at your side, It's a lot harder to turn incorrectly.


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## Guest

Practice makes perfect!


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## baldylox

Snowolf said:


> Rocking back and forth is just fine....it is a way to keep the board pointed down the fall line and control speed without making large radius turns. This technique is quite effective for going down cat tracks. Tilt is one of three fundamental movements to turn your board and is very appropriate.....:thumbsup:
> 
> As for riding flat, try to stay on edge, but at a low edge angle. I find that being slightly on toe edge is the easiest and then counter rotaing my shoulders to cancel out the toeside turning tendency.


as i've gotten better. I've found that doing a shallow carve on flats reduces muscle fatigue ALOT. if you keep it real clean you don't loose much speed.


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## Mr. Right

Snowolf said:


> It is amazing how a very minor thing like this can hinder your riding. I have always had a little tougher time making positive, powerfull toeside turns on the steeps. I was clinicing with a higher level instructor a few weeks agao and he spotten me doing this very thing. It is a habit that comes from your first days of learning to ride. You tend to put the back out in front of you to catch yourself if you fall toeside. Well, I was doing this and when I would turn toeside, that back hand would shoot out it front of me and was not even aware I was doing it. When that happens, it causes your shoulders to rotate COUNTER to a toeside turn. This counter rotation works against you when trying to turn toeside. To break myself of this habit, I now, deliberately "throw" my back hand behind me at the start of a toesdie turn, which causes my shoulders to pivot toeside much the way someone pre winding for a 180. Instantly I felt the toeside turning problem go away!


I have been working on eliminating that very problem since you gave me the advice and I have seen improvement in certain situations of my riding since then. It is a hard habit to break! I got very good at riding like that and although it helps to do it the right way, old bad habits are hard to break when you have succeeded and grown better at riding with them.


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## CoffeeNhugz

*Wait, is this right?*

When I ride downhill and try to get more speed I usually lean my front leg a little forward to straighten out the board and bend my knees. I initiate my turns by leaning a little and bending my board with the front foot first and then follow-up with the back. 

One of the worst habits I see in new riders is when they decide to go on a blue when they can barely make toe-side and heel-side turns and end up ruining your ride because they get out of control and cut you off.

snowboardersocal.blogspot.com


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## Guest

Well I also skateboard along with snowboarding but what still gets me is i skate goofy but snow regular. Anyone have an idea of why this is?


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## baldylox

U.PBoarder said:


> Well I also skateboard along with snowboarding but what still gets me is i skate goofy but snow regular. Anyone have an idea of why this is?


new thread


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## sedition

U.PBoarder said:


> Well I also skateboard along with snowboarding but what still gets me is i skate goofy but snow regular. Anyone have an idea of why this is?


That's uhm....really fuckin' weird.


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## Penguin

Great thread.

I didn't know using the back foot as a rudder was bad form. Like others here, nobody taught me. It was pretty much "find your own way down the hill." So when I started doing toeside, I'd swing my back foot out to turn. 

I'm gonna have to work on that next time I go, but winter is so far away.


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## Guest

Bobafett said:


> Guys, is 'pedaling' what is meant by pressuring the front foot either heel/toe to initiate the turn, followed by pressuring the rear foot the same way? I found my turns worked so much slicker by pressuring the front and creating a torsion on the board by initially keeping the pressure on the rear foot on the opposite edge, then changing the rear foot to the new edge after the turn had been initiated. Nobody's really taught me this per se, but it felt very natural and just kinda happened.





Snowolf said:


> Yep, that is the correct and ideal way to initiate turns. By keeping the rear foot locked in with the uphill edge, it allows the nose of the board to in essence pivot around the rear foot.


Wait a minute... so the best way to initiate a turn is to start with pressure on the front foot heelside, and at the same time be putting toeside pressure on the back foot? Then after the turn is initiated make the back foot match the front?

Man I don't know anything... I used my back foot as a rudder and skid turned all over on my first week of snowboarding.

Still loved it haha


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## Guest

oddly enough, I was taught by one of my friends to use my tail as a rudder, but never found riding like that effective. I 86'd that technique my first day on the mountain. Still having a little troubly switching from edge to edge, but I've got my own set up this season, so I should get it down.


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## WhistlerBound

Snowolf said:


> The idea here is like this, Say for example you are going down a run, making linked S turns. You are just coming out of a heel side turn and are about ready to go back to toe side. As you are making your traverse, you will be riding on the heel edge of the board. To begin the turn, you will first, relax the heel pressure on the front foot basically allowing the nose of the board to go flat and disengage that uphill heel edge. What will happen is the nose of the board will begin to slide down the hill. It is like when you are side slipping; if you flatten the board out, it slides down the hill. The difference here is your rear foot is keeping the tail end of the board "locked in" to the hill with the heel edge. So, the nose slips down the hill while the tail stays right where it is. As the board enters the fall line and is almost pointing straight down the hill, you will then start pressing down on the toe edge of the board with the front foot as you now let the rear foot go totally flat. This begins to engage the toe edge of the board beginning at the nose and working down the length of the side cut. As the board leaves the fall line and is climbing back up the hill, you will start pressuring the toe edge with the back foot so that as you complete the turn and traverse across the hill, you will solidly be on the toe edge with both feet.


Did this come from some instructor's course notes? 

This is almost word for word the way an instructor described the process to me. I went from not being able to turn at all to linking turns with this one description (in minutes). I'm not sure where the "rudder" analogy originated, but it's never really made sense to me since that lesson, so I block my ears and make "nah-nah" noises whenever I hear it so I don't confuse myself.


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## Guest

Snowolf said:


> Yes, using "torsional steering" is the correct and most efficient method to steer your board. Most self taught people do get in the habit of pushing the rear of the board around with the back foot. It is a common thing and it kinda sorta gets the job done, just rather inefficiently and a bit clumsily.
> 
> The idea here is like this, Say for example you are going down a run, making linked S turns. You are just coming out of a heel side turn and are about ready to go back to toe side. As you are making your traverse, you will be riding on the heel edge of the board. To begin the turn, you will first, relax the heel pressure on the front foot basically allowing the nose of the board to go flat and disengage that uphill heel edge. What will happen is the nose of the board will begin to slide down the hill. It is like when you are side slipping; if you flatten the board out, it slides down the hill. The difference here is your rear foot is keeping the tail end of the board "locked in" to the hill with the heel edge. So, the nose slips down the hill while the tail stays right where it is. As the board enters the fall line and is almost pointing straight down the hill, you will then start pressing down on the toe edge of the board with the front foot as you now let the rear foot go totally flat. This begins to engage the toe edge of the board beginning at the nose and working down the length of the side cut. As the board leaves the fall line and is climbing back up the hill, you will start pressuring the toe edge with the back foot so that as you complete the turn and traverse across the hill, you will solidly be on the toe edge with both feet.
> 
> Once you get proficient with this technique, you will find it is almost effortless and takes almost zero work to go down the runs making lots of short and medium radius turns to maintain a constant speed.


Interesting stuff. When I want to make some more aggressive carved turns, I have a habit of shifting my center of gravity into the turn by leaning into the turn. For example, take the turn you described above where you are traversing on the heel side. If I'm going fast, sometimes I'll keep my entire body quiet and just shift my weight forward onto the toes (both feet), almost like I'm about to drop down and do some push ups (except my legs are flexed). But of course the edge catches and begins carving before I get too far over.

What are your thoughts on that technique?


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## Guest

Yep that's exactly what I'm talking about. I love the "hump and dump" reference. I've got the dump part down for heelside turns, but I don't think I'm doing the proper toeside turns. Do you have any pictures or videos of the proper form for an aggressive carved toeside turn?


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## Guest

Okay that's making more sense now. I was a little confused at first because when you originally said to keep your upper body centered over the board, I got the mental image of having your upper body straight up and down relative to the ground. But I think what you're saying is that the upper body needs to be aligned with the board, so that if you are doing a hard toeside carve and the board is on edge at 45 degrees, then your upper body should also be at 45 degrees. So you aren't leaning "forward" but you're leaning towards the rotational center of the arc of your turn, sort of a like a motorcycle rider does. Is that correct?


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## Guest

Snowolf said:


> Yes, using "torsional steering" is the correct and most efficient method to steer your board. Most self taught people do get in the habit of pushing the rear of the board around with the back foot. It is a common thing and it kinda sorta gets the job done, just rather inefficiently and a bit clumsily.
> 
> The idea here is like this, Say for example you are going down a run, making linked S turns. You are just coming out of a heel side turn and are about ready to go back to toe side. As you are making your traverse, you will be riding on the heel edge of the board. To begin the turn, you will first, relax the heel pressure on the front foot basically allowing the nose of the board to go flat and disengage that uphill heel edge. What will happen is the nose of the board will begin to slide down the hill. It is like when you are side slipping; if you flatten the board out, it slides down the hill. The difference here is your rear foot is keeping the tail end of the board "locked in" to the hill with the heel edge. So, the nose slips down the hill while the tail stays right where it is. As the board enters the fall line and is almost pointing straight down the hill, you will then start pressing down on the toe edge of the board with the front foot as you now let the rear foot go totally flat. This begins to engage the toe edge of the board beginning at the nose and working down the length of the side cut. As the board leaves the fall line and is climbing back up the hill, you will start pressuring the toe edge with the back foot so that as you complete the turn and traverse across the hill, you will solidly be on the toe edge with both feet.
> 
> Once you get proficient with this technique, you will find it is almost effortless and takes almost zero work to go down the runs making lots of short and medium radius turns to maintain a constant speed.


you don't need to do this for decks with BTX do you?


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## Guest

*windshield wiper turns*



Penguin said:


> Great thread.
> 
> I didn't know using the back foot as a rudder was bad form. Like others here, nobody taught me. It was pretty much "find your own way down the hill." So when I started doing toeside, I'd swing my back foot out to turn.
> 
> I'm gonna have to work on that next time I go, but winter is so far away.


We intstructors refer to that as a windshield wiper turn. bad form indeed. Proper technique starts with the feet ankles knees and hip...bottom up not top down.. 

windshield wiper turns usually have an accompanying upper body jerking movement/counter rotation to get the tail of the board moving. This is seen especially in new riders who chose to teach themselves or learn from friends... take a lesson ya'll cuz the longer you ride that way the harder it will be to break the habit..


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## Guest

Nito said:


> Hi Snowolf,
> 
> I squeeze my knees together to flex the board. For example, after I initiate my turn, if I want to reduce my turning radius I squeeze my knee to flex the board more.
> 
> BTW, my angles are 12/3 but some friends do this riding duck.
> 
> If this is a bad technique, please let us know.
> 
> Thanks - Nito


Squeezing your knees together actually decambers a board and makes turn initiation quicker. Try using your feet and flexion of your ankles/knees and keep your upper body centered over the board. Good form turning involves using flexion/extension movements of the feet ankles and knees..keep upper body rotary movements to a minimun.. remember, good turning starts with the feet on up not the shoulders on down!!

The upper bodies job is to keep your center of mass over the board.. play with pressuring the inside of each of your bindings and see what happens to the board, last year I was involved teaching a clinic doing this and we proceeded to blow some minds... THIS IS NOT BAD TECHNIQUE, just another example of how pressure distributiion effects board performance..


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## zakk

sedition said:


> curse words, gambling, satanism, poetry, whiskey, women, rock and roll...
> 
> :cheeky4:


there goes all the fun stuf :laugh:

I do a bit of the "rudder" thing, but its more to control speed when I'm going a bit faster than I feel comfortable. 

Also, I'm having some trouble with the shoulders suggestion. should they be parallel (assuming a line going through both went on to infinity) with the board?


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## Guest

Joined because of this thread. great info. Cant wait to get out and start breaking some bad habits.


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## Guest

*wow*

This thread made me realize how much I suck! I've been riding for about three years and still can't carve consistently. My mechanics are a little off what is considered the conventional way posted here. I am the loser who does a 50-50 on a box that you don't need to ollie to get on. Speaking of ollien, I can't do that either. Hopefully this year will be the break out year for me, but it probably won't be.


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## SnoeMan

how much are we talking turning the chest down the hill ?
a full 90 is bad what about 45 or less ?


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## Guest

i noticed that when i'm on the flats (or on not very steep straightaways), i tend to face my body forward more instead of to the side like when carving, as you can see in my avatar..... :/


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## Guest

yay i may actually be doing something right. lol
Thanks Snowolf. You're awesome.


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## boarderaholic

Snowolf said:


> Except for situations where you want to use counter rotation to your advantage, you should have no amount of angle. The shoulders and chest should stay in line with the board. Turn your head to look downhill, not your upper body.
> 
> A good excercise to aid in developing muscle memory for this is to ride with your hands extended a little bit and keep them over the tip and tail of the board. Watch that back hand too, a lot of riders will get their upper body positioned well, but they tend to wave that back hand way out in front. Even this will cause some toe side turning issues.
> 
> A good way to help teach yourself to keep that back hand where it should be is to quite deliberately, "throw" that back hand behind you as you begin to initiate the toeside turn. It is`nt the way you ultimately want to ride, but if you do it a few times, you will feel how much more power you have in these turns. On the same line, when going toeside deliberately rotate your upper body slightly toeside. You will add pivot to the turn.
> 
> Again, these two ideas are training aids to get you to feel the effect. Your goal in riding is to maintain a quiet upper body and control your board from the waist down.


I found another technique that helps is just to stick your hands in your pockets as well, and just elimiate the use of your hands altogether and let the lower body do the work.


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## gravityhomer

Well, it's been six months since I first learned about the correct way of riding in this thread (of course there's been no snow). But I was able to get out there one last time before the season was over last April. I tried to deliberately avoid side slipping and skidding turns. And especially when going heal to toe, I really felt that I was doing something right. Started applying pressure to the front toe and the board started going downhill, kept pressure on the back heal until I was pointed directly downhill, then switched both feet to the toe and voila a turn with very little skidding. 

The toe to heal turn was not so great. the only green that was open was a long winding trail with parts that were a lot steeper than I would had wanted and there was a 10'+ drop all along the right side. So I'd start heading in that direction and usually freakout, skid or fall or whatever.

I had fun, but it was pitiful. though, it was way less than ideal conditions. It was closing weekend of Mt Snow, and they were hit with nearly summer conditions the previous week. It was like riding on rock salt. I will be sticking with nice wide non-steep slopes starting this season. Went for the cheap season pass at butternut.


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## Guest

sedition said:


> Wow, there are a lot. A few major ones that I often see...
> 
> (1) Locked front leg that that is used as a (or, should I sae THE) piviot point for turning.
> 
> (2) Leaning UP the hill. (Snowolf just made a great post on this in last day or two)
> 
> (3) Skidding turns, as opposed to cariving them.
> 
> (4) Stiff legs and upper body.
> 
> (5) Hitting the terrain park, before you can hit a Blue.
> 
> (6) Leaning too much on the front/back leg. (most often it's the back)
> 
> (7) Not keeping board, hips, shoulders, and head on the same plain (i.e. center of gravity issues)
> 
> anyone else care to add...


I like this one...One other I don't think has been covered is probably more of a set up issue, but leads to bad habits as well, is stance options being to narrow or too wide...If its been covered disregard, sorry! and I'll just read some more...


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## gravityhomer

snowboardcoach said:


> I like this one...One other I don't think has been covered is probably more of a set up issue, but leads to bad habits as well, is stance options being to narrow or too wide...If its been covered disregard, sorry! and I'll just read some more...


Actually I don't think that has been mentioned. Can you expound on the problems that arise from a too narrow or too wide stance?


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## Guest

Range of movement is inhibited with a stance that is too wide.. do you hear me Gangsta jib rats?? the snowolf covers this quite nicely... Also, stance angles will greatly influence whether you are able to maintain, and manipulate center of mass as you flex and extend...flex and extend...:thumbsup:


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## Guest

jeez. triple post?


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## Guest

Good points all, don't forget bad for the knees. Hard landings on a stance that is too wide is hard on the knees as a hard landing with too narrow will toss you ways you didn't think possible cause you can't absorb the impact enough with your legs... try to jump off a couple steps and land with your feet together and then with them around shoulder width apart and you'll see what the deal is. Bottom line believe it or not there is a perfect balance point grasshopper! you just have to find yours. there is a kind of forumla to figure out where to start its like take your height in inches and multiply by .3 and thats your starting point. don't go narrower but dial in from adjusting to personal preference. Ride it adjust it.


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## Guest

I think there is no any kind of bad habits if you find the better solution for something with good result.


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## legallyillegal




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## Guest

yes and no


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## SnoeMan

im starting to rethink the don't turn your body down the hill 
the more vids i watch the more pros i see turning a little, some even allot 
id like to hear more about this


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## legallyillegal

SnoeMan said:


> im starting to rethink the don't turn your body down the hill
> the more vids i watch the more pros i see turning a little, some even allot
> id like to hear more about this


It shouldn't really matter that much as long as it's your lower body controlling everything.


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## Guest

Reference Alignments: (RA's) Reference alignments refer to specific positions of the body relative to itself, the snow, or the board. These alignments allow description of direction and distance of movement. 

The three RA's are:

Front foot: shoulders ,hips, and knees aligned PERPENDICULAR to the front foot (eg. if the front foot is at zero degrees, the knees, hips, and shoulders would be parallell to the long axis of the board)

Board/Terrain: Shoulders and hips aligned with the terrain an which the board is travelling or, PREPARING TO LAND.

Center of Mass: Aligned between the feet and over the board or turning edge.

This is to be used as a guide, a reference point, not as the gospel truth for all situations encountered on a snowboard... This is considered good technique..but certainly open to transmutation.


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## Guest

The wolfman said " An excellent example of a situation where a rider might use counter rotation to their advantage is in the pipe. The key is knowing when, where and to what extent this counter rotation is appropriate."


T.I.D. bit.. Timing, Intensity, and Duration. When, how hard, how long.




Thats what she said.


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## Guest

NYCboarder said:


> one bad habbit i have = putting my hands out when i fall... (my wrists are killig me this morning)



Get some wrist guards and make fists with your hands when falling The forearm will take the blow not your wrists...it works


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## Guest

Snowolf said:


> If I understand your description correctly, you are describing an aspect of Dynamic carving. In Dynamic Carving, one of the things the rider does to accelerate through the turn is to make the edge change prior to the fall line. In English, this simply means that you transition onto the "downhill" edge. This idea at first sounds like the recipe for the Emergency Room, but in reality it is a perfectly safe as long as your board is traveling in a straight line tip to tail and there is no amount of sideslip. If you think about it, your board does not care whether it is pointed down the hill or across the hill. It only cares about how it is moving across the snow.
> 
> So, if you are traversing across the hill, again carving on your heel edge, and want to initiate the toeside turn without delay and without bleeding off speed in a long skidded turn, you will use this technique. The mechanics of it are pretty straight forward actually. When you are ready to make an accelerated toeside turn, you will first ensure that your board is tracking true and not sideslipping down the hill. You will then, shift your weight from the heel edge with both feet simultaneously onto your toe edge. This will be spooky as hell the first time you try it, so pick gentle terrain and reasonably soft conditions to practice this. What will happen if you have done this correctly is you will go from heel to toe almost instantly and the board will go into a really fast, tight toeside turn through the fall line. You will really accelerate as the board turns through the fall line so be ready for it. Commitment is the key here since once you commit to that toe edge here, you can`t change your mind suddenly without risking a loss of control. The good news is the quicker you complete the turn, the quicker you will be in a toeside traverse and able to slow down.


Hi snowolf, sorry to back up to a previous topic but am only just going through it now. I've got the 'tortional steering' your talking about first sorted, its kind of like a delayed reaction of the rear foot to what the front foot is doing.

But are you saying with dynamic carving you actually change from heel edge to front edge with both feet at EXACTLY the same time? If your not delaying your rear foot with respect to your front foot to cause you to pivot around the back - how does the board make the turn? I assumed you'd just carry on full speed in the same direction but very off balanced.


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## Guest

Ah and there i was thinking i'd almost mastered turning. Thanks for that, that explanation helps alot. So once you've got that you can go straight back to heel edge (exact same way) for an accelerated turn the other way - and you keep going to pick up more speed.

Cheers


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## Guest

Great i'm heading out to tignes tonight so will give it a go. Thanks for that and saw your youtube vids a while back. Helped alot!


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## Guest

YouTube - Dynamic Turns

one last question snowolf, in your vid your controlling your edge by using the hump and dump - but are you also using tortional flex to turn it aswell or is the edge change just coming from the change in your stance?

I'm not using much hump and dump in my turns and gonna try this out but is it also worth using tortional flex of the board too?

cheers


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## Guest

Wow some interesting stuff on this thread. I have been riding for 11 years, self taught albeit a 30 min lesson in 1999 to learn the basics. I definately picked up a few bad habits myself over the first few seasons. I started to notice how my friend Edd, who learnt on the same day as me, differed from people I watched from the lifts who looked so much more graceful and smooth. The main 3 things I saw was 1: Turning the upper body to face downhill. 2: Flailing the arms around.
3: Skidding the back foot, particularly in toeside turns. I immediately wondred if I did any of these, and became really aware of what my body was doing as I was riding. The first thing I did was sort my arms out, I made a real effort to keep them at my sides. The difference this made was immediately noticeable, and this also keeps the body aligned with the board. My riding felt effortless and smooth instantly. My next goal was to eliminate skidding, This was done by employing the dump and pump technique, and I could tell straight away, and also feel the burn of new muscles being used, particularly on the steeps. I still need to work on a lot, as I only get away once a year (live in England) but just got back from Nevis Range in Scotland and had some real nice snow. This November I plan to head out to Leysin for at least a month.


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## whiskaz

I finally got to use some of what I've read on the forums over the weekend. By the end of my 4 days, my riding had improved 1,000%. I normally only get to go once a year, maybe twice, which has made progressing difficult. This year I've managed to get in 7 days with 1 or 2 days left. I plan to take a private lesson next season to get some feedback. I feel like my technique has improved, but it's hard to pin-point areas that need work. At least I'm not kicking my back foot around! 

I have a question though. I ride a K2 Satellite that my wife gave to me as a gift 6 years ago. I noticed that even though I'm more confident in making turns and using (or at least attempting) proper technique, the board will still skid more than I mean for it too in the middle of a turn. It could just be me and maybe I need more practice, but I was wondering if this may be a characteristic of a "beginner" board?


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## Shadowrat

in my case, when i was slipping, it was the rider, not the board.

i found i was leaning laterally way to much when i carved, and i wasn't leaning far enough forward (part of that was a knee injury, i was just tennative about weighting my front knee to much).

i don't think boards make as much a difference as the manufacturers like to make you think. I'm not saying there is no difference, but it's what's on top of the board that has the most influence in performance.

Have you sharpened your edges this year?


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## Dano

Crystal methamphetamine


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## whiskaz

Shadowrat said:


> Have you sharpened your edges this year?


I'm sure it's more the rider than the board. I actually just had the edges sharpened before going out for the weekend. 

A question for another thread maybe, but I was sort of wondering why/how exactly someone "grows out of" a beginner board and if it may be part of my problem.


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## JeffreyCH

Great thread. I have the turning without skidding, leaning forward, and flexing the board things down. I do however use my back arm to counter balance my turns. Some have posted about putting thier hands in front of them being bad, I'm opposite, my back arm/hand go back towards the slope, opposite the turn. Is this bad form?


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## Guest

sedition said:


> (3) Skidding turns, as opposed to cariving them.


what's so bad about skidding turns? a skidded turn is a perfectly acceptable turn on a snowboard. i've never really understood this 'carve-good. skid-bad' snobbery...

:\

alasdair


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## alecdude88

oneplankawanka said:


> Get some wrist guards and make fists with your hands when falling The forearm will take the blow not your wrists...it works


hes not lying to you if i wouldn't have unlocked and fisted my hand i would have a broken arm and rest


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## Flick Montana

alasdairm said:


> what's so bad about skidding turns? a skidded turn is a perfectly acceptable turn on a snowboard. i've never really understood this 'carve-good. skid-bad' snobbery...
> 
> :\
> 
> alasdair


It's those snowboarding purists who cringe when they see a little snow fly as you turn. Skidding is not bad unless you're doing it the whole way and you end up with edge burn all the way to your boot. :laugh:


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## NoirX252

In response to dynamic carved turns, which is more appropriate?

1. Keeping the upper body quiet and letting the legs do ALL the work
2. or actively counter rotating, but it looks like you have a quiet body for the most part, to get a little bit of a tighter carved turn in. (not skidded, carved, I feel the finish to my turns is a lot more complete and stronger with #2, but I generally do #1)


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## Beatlesfan888

someones probably mentioned this but honestly im just to lazy to read the pages between 1 and 13. But a very common misperception is that a turn is made by planting the front foot, leaning back and swinging the back foot out (for heel side anyway) when really its a matter of tilting the front foot to cause the board to twist then letting your back foot follow through. When people swing their back foot thats when you see people preforming skidded turns opposed to carving.


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