# Return to Snow - Knee Pain & Setup



## cbrown89 (Jan 20, 2014)

Hi,

First post here and looking for a little advice after reading through the threads for a while.

I recently started snowboarding again after 7 years away and although loving being back I have started getting pain in my right leg (inside and behind) at the end of a days riding. 

After reading a few threads I believe it could be caused by a few things, board set up, boots insoles required and existing mild injury to my MCL.

I am 6ft 6", weigh 200lbs and ride goofy, currently my bindings are set to front foot +15 and back foot +3 with my stance at 23". I usually feel the stress in my front leg towards the end of the day and then the next day.

I spoke to someone in the store I bought the board from and he recommended reducing the stance width and pulling the front foot angle back to 9/10 degrees. Also, I have size 14 (US) feet so I couldnt be picky with the boots as a result they arent as tight as I would like them to be.

Does anyone have previous experience with this or any advice on setup?:dizzy:


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## Extremo (Nov 6, 2008)

The main thing you have to be careful of is over use. You can develop tendonitis fairly quickly returning to snowboarding because your tendons and ligaments aren't conditioned for this type of use. After suffering a broken foot and a knee contusion in consecutive seasons I returned too aggressively the following season and ended up having severe pain in a similar spot to what you are describing. 

A few different things have helped. First, I'd recommend easing back into it. If you start to experience pain, stop immediately. I really can't stress that enough. Too many times I've just continued to ride with pain, only to have them develop ligament strain and tendonitis. I ended up having iliotibial band syndrome that took months of therapy, and rest, which I still didn't fully adhere to. If you have pain, stop, ice it to reduce swelling and jumpstart the healing process. 

I've also reduced my angles from 18/-15 to 12/-9, which seems to help a bit. It takes the strain off my knees from being in a twisted position. I tend to keep my shoulders a little more square as well so I'm not opening up so much and putting so much stress on my back knee. 

I think it also helps to get a binding that has good dampening and some canting. After trying a few bindings with canting I wasn't really sold on them because during back to back rides, I couldn't tell any immediate difference in performance, but since I've been riding them full time I've noticed my knees have had much less pain and stiffness after longer days on the hill. With the increased dampening, canting, and reduced angles I've definitely noticed an improvement. My knees don't develop that sprained-like feeling I've had to ride with in the past. 

I also ice my knees regularly. If I've had a heavy day on the hill, and I start to feel some over use, I'll take ibuprofen to reduce inflamation and ice 2 times, once when I get home and again before bed. It helps my knees heal from any micro-trauma to the tendons and ligaments and helps reduce recovery time so I'm fresher the next time I hit the hill. 

Another thing I've noticed is that some boots, particularly stiffer ones tend to contribute to knee pain, likely due to the angle they set your leg at. I've found a few boots that I just couldn't ride because they caused so much leg pain. 

Hope that helps. Keep trying different things and eventually you'll figure out the right set up and recovery routine.


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## cbrown89 (Jan 20, 2014)

Thanks for the reply!

I think thats what I am dealing with at the moment, ligament strain that is. It just doesn't feel right. 

I've just purchased a new pair of binding so I may try and find some other solutions...

I will be seeing the physio tomorrow hopefully she will give me some input, I also tried the setup of my board in my house last night, straight away it feels like my feet are to far apart.


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## qsilvr99 (Dec 22, 2009)

Does your leg hurt after walking down stairs or downhill?

That's gets mine acting up.

Goofy as we'll, lead leg will start acting up after a couple of runs unless I wear a knee strap. When i do wear them, no issues after consecutive days of riding.

Apparently I have a bad over pronation and my patella doesn't track right. Lunges and squats kill me.
http://www.mcdavidusa.com/Product/419R/MCDAVID_Level_2_Knee_Support_adjustable.aspx


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## cbrown89 (Jan 20, 2014)

qsilvr99 said:


> Does your leg hurt after walking down stairs or downhill?
> 
> That's gets mine acting up.
> 
> ...


No leg is ok going down stairs or hills and squats/lunges are ok, I sometimes get a bit of discomfort/strain on my lower quad/mcl area.

I am thinking a knee support would be a good idea, hopefully the physio tomorrow has some good input.


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## marauder (Nov 30, 2013)

You may want to consider these after seeing a doctor/physio: bike cycling - gradual increasing of difficulty; swimming - NO BREASTSTROKE, because it's twisting your knees like m/f; gym exercises: half-squats with a lever on your shoulders and behind your neck, without additional weight. These have helped me a lot after severe knee injuries and a surgery. Take it easy on the slopes and good luck!


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## cbrown89 (Jan 20, 2014)

Saw the physio last night, ligaments are all fine but there was some slight swelling around the MCL area she also said there was slightly more movement compared to my left (understandable due to previous injury).

She suggested playing around with my board set up to reduce the strain on my leg... Which means I "have" to go snowboarding again this weekend. Life is tough.


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## baldylox (Dec 27, 2007)

23" does not seem too wide for someone of your stature. I ride 20.5 to 22" (with cant) and I am 5'10-11"ish. 

I would tend to want to steepen the angle on the rear binding before reducing the front as that will hinder your ability to initiate turns by opening the hips. Maybe 15F, 6R,


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## cbrown89 (Jan 20, 2014)

baldylox said:


> 23" does not seem too wide for someone of your stature. I ride 20.5 to 22" (with cant) and I am 5'10-11"ish.
> 
> I would tend to want to steepen the angle on the rear binding before reducing the front as that will hinder your ability to initiate turns by opening the hips. Maybe 15F, 6R,


I think I might bring the width in slightly maybe an inch, First day boarding I had 15F and 9R.... It's all a bit confusing, damn leg.


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## lab49232 (Sep 13, 2011)

baldylox said:


> 23" does not seem too wide for someone of your stature. I ride 20.5 to 22" (with cant) and I am 5'10-11"ish.
> 
> I would tend to want to steepen the angle on the rear binding before reducing the front as that will hinder your ability to initiate turns by opening the hips. Maybe 15F, 6R,


Canting is a big thing. What bindings do you ride? Do they have a canted foot bed? Getting a 3 degree cant can relieve a TON of stress on the knees. I wouldn't reduce your angles too much as they aren't aggressive by any means, maybe a few degrees at most. Can't will do you wonders though, and while 23" isnt too bad for your size try going down to 22". It's surprising how much stress a tiny adjustment can relieve.


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## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

I think you should find a stance you're comfortable and painless in, and gradually ease yourself back into fitness. No matter how comfy your stance is, if you have been away for 7yrs you will experience a least some discomfort; unless you kept yourself in mega tiptop shape during that time. But don't ride if you're in pain.

So basically, start with shorter days. Vary the level of your runs (black runs are way more strenuous than greens so mix it up). Do not ride to the point of pain and treat your knee as if you were in phisiotherapy after each day, until you can ride normally without discomfort/swelling.

And listen to your Dr


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## cbrown89 (Jan 20, 2014)

lab49232 said:


> Canting is a big thing. What bindings do you ride? Do they have a canted foot bed? Getting a 3 degree cant can relieve a TON of stress on the knees. I wouldn't reduce your angles too much as they aren't aggressive by any means, maybe a few degrees at most. Can't will do you wonders though, and while 23" isnt too bad for your size try going down to 22". It's surprising how much stress a tiny adjustment can relieve.


I've read a bit about canting (just getting back into snowboarding). 

I have Ride Rodeos (http://ridesnowboards.com/bindings/rodeo) on a Rossingol Krypto Magtek (http://ridesnowboards.com/bindings/rodeo).

I saw an earlier post where people put something beneath the binding to create a canting effect.

When standing in my living room with the board on it feels to wide for comfort. I will tinker with it in the house and maybe get a lesson to see if my stance and position are awful.

Thanks for all the help people.


Also, I have just seen that this binding has the Wedgie™ footbeds which I believe is at an angle...


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## lab49232 (Sep 13, 2011)

cbrown89 said:


> I've read a bit about canting (just getting back into snowboarding).
> 
> I have Ride Rodeos (Rodeo Bindings | All Mountain Freestyle, Park & Pipe | Ride Snowboards 2013-2014) on a Rossingol Krypto Magtek (Rodeo Bindings | All Mountain Freestyle, Park & Pipe | Ride Snowboards 2013-2014).
> 
> ...


If it feels too wide for comfort bring it in a tad for sure. 

And those bindings look like they have their "Wedgie" footbed. Which of the footbeds do you have in it now? They make it with multiple canting options. If you have a low or flat version installed consider going up to a higher cant like the 4.0 and I promise it will take a ton of the stress away. It's a miracle worker. I haven't ridden and DIY style cants as once I found a pair of Rome's with canting I decided I would never get a pair that it didnt come standard on again.


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## cbrown89 (Jan 20, 2014)

lab49232 said:


> If it feels too wide for comfort bring it in a tad for sure.
> 
> And those bindings look like they have their "Wedgie" footbed. Which of the footbeds do you have in it now? They make it with multiple canting options. If you have a low or flat version installed consider going up to a higher cant like the 4.0 and I promise it will take a ton of the stress away. It's a miracle worker. I haven't ridden and DIY style cants as once I found a pair of Rome's with canting I decided I would never get a pair that it didnt come standard on again.


Not sure will need to check when I go home, I think a trip to sportchek/the source to order some higher angled ones is in order... Glad this is an option as I just bought them!

I think I will get some insoles for my boots as well as there is some movement towards the top heel. Problem of being tall and skinny....


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## cbrown89 (Jan 20, 2014)

lab49232 said:


> Canting is a big thing. What bindings do you ride? Do they have a canted foot bed? Getting a 3 degree cant can relieve a TON of stress on the knees. I wouldn't reduce your angles too much as they aren't aggressive by any means, maybe a few degrees at most. Can't will do you wonders though, and while 23" isnt too bad for your size try going down to 22". It's surprising how much stress a tiny adjustment can relieve.


So I checked my binding when I got back and they are 2.5 degrees bindings (you can have 1,2.5,3,4). 

I'm going to tinker on my board tonight because even standing on it now I can feel it being uncomfortable.


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## nillo (Dec 18, 2013)

when you stand straight with your feet and knees together, are your feet straight or splayed?


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## Zolemite (Dec 13, 2012)

Take a norco every 4hrs for pain haha


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## qsilvr99 (Dec 22, 2009)

To get my binding spacing: 


I laid my board on the floor
Relaxed for a bit
Jumped up and landed, making sure not to look at my feet as I did this. 

Repeated a few times and so far spacing has been perfect.

Also, this gave me my natural foot angle that I then set my bindings to as well.

Before I did this, I had just picked a random spacing & binding angles and had issues.


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## cbrown89 (Jan 20, 2014)

I guess my feet are slightly pointing outwards?

I changed my bindings angle out some more to help with squatting and brought the distance in slightly. 

Unfortunately the snow looks crap this weekend...


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## nillo (Dec 18, 2013)

It sounds like your feet might be a little overpronated. Mine are pretty severely overpronated and I am just figuring out how to deal with it, but the pain symptoms sounded familiar.

You can have someone look at your Achilles tendon from behind while standing with your feet at shoulder width. If your ankles lean inward and the tendon sort of flares to the outside you are overpronated. Another test is to stand with your feet shoulder width apart and pointing straight ahead. Bend at the knees and see if your knees come together. Depending on the cause, there are different solutions that you would want to discuss with a podiatrist. I'm not a doctor.

What is interesting is that a custom orthotic to correct that will raise the inside edge of the foot. That is exactly the opposite of what the canted snowboard bindings do. They raise the outside edge. I'm looking into footbed shims to help fix my problem while saving up dough for custom orthotics. I'm not spending that much money during a super shitty snow season.

Definitely get a heat molded footbed.

You might also want to take your board into the physio and have them look at your joint alignment while in the bindings to see if they notice anything obviously problematic.


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## nillo (Dec 18, 2013)

I've been giving the whole cant question some thought. Mainly because I was wondering from my biased point of view why anyone would want to lift their outside edges. If I'm wrong, I would love someone to correct me as I'm just trying to figure this stuff out in order to know why one binding setup is more comfotable than another.

If someone has overpronated feet and their natural splay is 30deg in order to have the feet at a 0deg splay (straight ahead) you have to shim the inside edge (ball) to bring everything into alignment. Conversely, if you have a normal pronation and a natural splay of 0deg in order to have the feet at a 30deg splay (pretty widely splayed duck stance) . You would have to shim te outside edge to bring everything into alignment. This would also seem to indicate that if you have bindings that are canted from the outside, it will necessitate a splay that is wider than your natural splay. So if you have a natural splay of like 10deg you would have to set your bindings to something like 20deg if you have canted bindings, depending on the cant.

I would love to hear from someone that actually knows about this stuff though.


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## jml22 (Apr 10, 2012)

Foot pronation and orthotics is the most archaic way of addressing this medial knee pain problem, Especially in snowboarding.
MCL, ACL, Medial meniscus, are almost 100% from lack of hip control.
Your MCL and Medial meniscus will not be stressed as much if your hip is strong enough and coordinated enough with the rest of your body.
Too many times do i see knees buckle inwards and people want ot know why their kneees hurt
It has nothing to do with your gear, no orthotic is going to fix that. If your knees buckle the first time you land, squat, carve, WALK/run, THEY WILL CONTINUE TO DO SO until you train.


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## nillo (Dec 18, 2013)

some of us were born that way and no amount of training is going to fix it. Not everyone has normal bone and ligament structure.


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## jml22 (Apr 10, 2012)

Medial collapse of the knee when walking and moving is nothing to do with what you're born with.
Yes it can make it worse and can make it naturally happen but you can train out of it very easily.
Countless top varsity women's volleyball players, havenaturally anteverted hips which cause valgus knees and have trained out of letting their knees knock together when they land.


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## nillo (Dec 18, 2013)

Ok, I see where you are coming from. And wrt the OP you are probably spot on. But wrt to me, there are about 4 decades of doctors that would say I shouldn't threadjack this anymore.


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## lab49232 (Sep 13, 2011)

nillo said:


> I've been giving the whole cant question some thought. Mainly because I was wondering from my biased point of view why anyone would want to lift their outside edges. If I'm wrong, I would love someone to correct me as I'm just trying to figure this stuff out in order to know why one binding setup is more comfotable than another.
> 
> If someone has overpronated feet and their natural splay is 30deg in order to have the feet at a 0deg splay (straight ahead) you have to shim the inside edge (ball) to bring everything into alignment. Conversely, if you have a normal pronation and a natural splay of 0deg in order to have the feet at a 30deg splay (pretty widely splayed duck stance) . You would have to shim te outside edge to bring everything into alignment. This would also seem to indicate that if you have bindings that are canted from the outside, it will necessitate a splay that is wider than your natural splay. So if you have a natural splay of like 10deg you would have to set your bindings to something like 20deg if you have canted bindings, depending on the cant.
> 
> I would love to hear from someone that actually knows about this stuff though.


Ya canting is all about relieving pressure on your knees, not proination. With the outisde of the binding lifted it tucks your knees back in towards each other relieving stress. Regardless of pronation sit down and spread your stance wide and angle your feet out but leave them sitting flat on the ground. Fell the stress on your knees, then lift the outside of each foot and you'll fell your knees come together and a relief of pressure. 

I over pronate and use to get terrible shin splints when I ran but boy do I love cants.


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## t21 (Dec 29, 2010)

I've been riding for four seasons now and i had knees issues while in the military. I had my binding angles changes multiple time to relieve pain on my knees especially my back leg. Last season i bought the NX2-AT with a 2.5 canted footbed and i helped my knees a bit. This year though, i changed the width of my bindings from 21 to 22.3/4 and my angles from 12/-12 to 12/-9, my knees felt much better. They still get sore at the end of the day but not like it used to be. As others have mentioned,you have to play with your set-up with canted footbed could really help your knee pain.


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## cbrown89 (Jan 20, 2014)

Sunshine this weekend hopefully get it resolved.


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## cbrown89 (Jan 20, 2014)

So I tried the new setup (closer stance, F+21 B +9, Heel angle pushed in) and while it made a difference my leg was still sore.

I think as it was still a bit tender this caused the issue as the setup definitely helped.

I will take a few weekends off boarding until the leg is healed and try again.

Thanks for everybodies help so far.


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