# Who rides a full Positive Stance? How do u like it?



## neni (Dec 24, 2012)

My whole pack is into carving, all ride old school +/+ angles, 30/18, 27/18, 24/12 ranges. 

I've been riding +/+ since '92 also in that range but done some experiments with angles recently and mellowed the angles last season, duck this season.

Riding duck, I feel like ride more with hip and I "let the board" get on edge. With fwd angles, I ride with my knees and "actively push" the board on edge. With the observations gathered on pros and cons for fwd and duck _for me_, I meanwhile set up the boards in the quiver all with different angles. 

While melloweing the angles on the Mothership (the women's version of the Flagship, but softer and more narrow, more nimble n agile), I observed that I actually prefer a flatter hind + angle in pow, especially for the short quick turns in steep.

Then I got a short ballerina board set up to 12/-12, and learned that I clearly felt way more comfy landing jumps n riding crud with duck. I've transferred duck to the Mothership and a 15/-9 feels perfect now: I carve her on groomers and ride pow comfortably.

Funny tho, when I wanted to use the same angles on the Flagship (longer, stiffer, wider than the Mothership), I felt hindered charging groomers. Couldn't get her on edge well, couldn't drive her through carves well, was not well balanced on flat base straight lines. I'm actually bit light for that board, feet are bit small for the width... I really have to work for my carves - which I like; tho it seems as if the minus hind angle robs me some amount of force I can apply and on that board, already "some" is too much. 
After swaping her back to mellow +/+ angles, all was fine again. 

I think +/+ gives me more force for driving through carves than duck. But it depends on the board if I need n want that extra force. Give and take, personal preference


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## ETM (Aug 11, 2009)

I ride duck −18 front, +15 back normally. This season I tried out forward forward stancein a variety of angles on my carving board with soft boots. Basically I found it to suck, I just couldnt get enough pressure over the rear heel to carve properly.


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## kumimajava (Oct 11, 2011)

I ride about +21-25 front, between +9-12 back now (depending on board).

I started off with mellow +12/+6 angles (tried +12/-6 for a while), then went to hardboots for about 5 years (+65/+50 :embarrased1, and now back to the angles above. I'm starting to (re-)learn riding switch, and have +12/-12 on that board.

I find that the two different stances need a different approach to carving. In the positive stance, I drive mostly with the knees, and use body position more. With duck stance, my knees just can't rotate in the right way, and most of the board angle needs to come from the ankles. I presume this is why i often hear the advice to 'use the ankles' more when a newbie on this forum asks for critique/advice (these days most people seem to ride duck).

Setup I use and find comfortable has stiff boots, and relatively stiff bindings - not a whole lot of ankle flexion going on at lower speeds; trying to do that feels uncomfortable. Perhaps this is a hangover from hardbooting days.

Another thing that changes with the angles, for me, is the upper body position. I tend to prefer riding with my body facing downhill/over the nose, probably because that's what comes naturally using positive angles, and what i've done for years (cross-unders FTW  . Ducked out, I'm always (almost) fully sideways, which is ok but not great for carving. 

From the (limited) experience I've had in powder, I prefer positive angles - I get more power for the rear foot with slightly positive angle vs. ducked out (exactly opposite to ETM - different strokes &c.:snowboard2. I suppose how much heel/toe power you get at whichever angle depends a lot on individual anatomy... 


To sum up the ramble - I don't think the stance alone will make you see a drastic change in performance. You'd need to adjust the technique to match, and then evaluate the full effect.


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## ETM (Aug 11, 2009)

I could see it working with hard boots but with soft boots I was leaning in toe side and all my power was being lost in boot flex


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## kumimajava (Oct 11, 2011)

ETM said:


> I could see it working with hard boots but with soft boots I was leaning in toe side and all my power was being lost in boot flex


Yes, in a softer boot it would do (and a softer binding). Just out of interest, what boots/bindings do you ride?


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## ETM (Aug 11, 2009)

kumimajava said:


> Yes, in a softer boot it would do (and a softer binding). Just out of interest, what boots/bindings do you ride?


that was with thirtytwo focus boots and burton diode bindings but a stiff binding doesnt do much when you lean toe side, its all in the boots toe side


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## vajohn (Jan 12, 2014)

I think mine is +6+15 usually. I can't ride duck lately because it gives me pain in my back knee. I wish I could ride duck on my short board, but I always prefer positive angles on the custom x.


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## kumimajava (Oct 11, 2011)

ETM said:


> that was with thirtytwo focus boots and burton diode bindings but a stiff binding doesnt do much when you lean toe side, its all in the boots toe side


I'll make a note of those boots - haven't tried them myself, will have a look what sort of flex they have. Wider/higher-up ankle straps can help trasnfering leverage into the toe edge, but I'm not familiar with the Diodes. 

Regarding the lack of power on the toes - in your first post you mentioned you couldn't get enough power over your rear *heel* with positive angles. Is this the same issue, or a separate one? 

sorry i'm being a pain with these questions, but all this input is helpful for me, since I'm experimenting more with duck-stance riding (exactly the opposite form the OP )


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## timmytard (Mar 19, 2009)

Haha this threads funny already.

neni with her short ballerina board & ETM's positive angles, Basically I found it to suck.


Certain boards are better for that than others obviously, but full on positive angles?

I don't know what that equates too, but I can picture it in my head. Yuck

I ride duck, I have no idea what my angles are. but for that type of board I'll turn both my feet more towards the front.

My rear foot hovers roughly zero degrees & it doesn't matter about the front one, that one is up to you .

That's the most of a forward stance as I'll go.

After riding a fairly close twinned out duck stance, Zero or close to zero in addition to moving your front foot, gives you the feeling & benefits that you'd get out of going forward.

Without actually doing it. 

TT


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## ETM (Aug 11, 2009)

sorry the heel was fine since you lean into the highback and the weight gets transferred to the board but when you go toe side the weight goes through the boot which flexes. It just equalled a lot of lost energy for me


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## kumimajava (Oct 11, 2011)

ETM said:


> sorry the heel was fine since you lean into the highback and the weight gets transferred to the board but when you go toe side the weight goes through the boot which flexes. It just equalled a lot of lost energy for me


Cheers - confusion gone


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## t21 (Dec 29, 2010)

I started riding forward stance +21/-6 about a month or so ago. I like it cuz it was easier to carve on both edges and it just felt natural. Although i originally had that setup on my 158, i transferred it to my 163 on deep days. Recently, we had about 4 to 5 feet of snow and i had a blast! except i had to adjust my front to +27. turning/carving on deep pow was amazing. The only issue i had was my back thigh would burn because i tend to push my back leg inward when i ride on bump up snow and short quick turns on untracked snow on the side of a trail:jumping1: but it was a blast nonetheless. I kept my duck stance back on my short board +12/-9. Funny thing that happen last weekend, my legs was so tired from riding through deep stuff that once i hit groomed trails, i rode switch without realizing i was on forward angles all the way back to the lift. I guess sometimes you forget your angles when having so much fun:happy:


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## CassMT (Mar 14, 2013)

+12/+6 since forever. so long i never think of it anymore, or any of the supposed limitations. never heard about ++ initiation of turns in pow that's f-ing absurd. try it Op, no fear, bring a screwdriver

interesting that the rise in popularity of duck coincides with the huge decline in carving in general. not causation necessarily, but a definite coincidence imo. now it seems 95% couldn't carve to save their and don't really care, it's just a different style of riding predominating, and that's cool


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## chomps1211 (Mar 30, 2011)

CassMT said:


> ….Op, no fear, bring a screwdriver


It's always a good idea to bring a few extra screws too!. Wouldn't want to be stuck after loosing one in the snow. :dunno:



CassMT said:


> *interesting that the rise in popularity of duck coincides with the huge decline in carving in general. not causation necessarily, but a definite coincidence imo.* now it seems 95% couldn't carve to save their and don't really care, it's just a different style of riding predominating, and that's cool


:question:
But wouldn't you agree that the popularity of "ducked" stances had more to do with twin boards and trick riding becoming more of the norm on the slopes? 

I don't know much about the history of SB'ing or the introduction of tech. A lot of those first few snowboards in the early years, look very similar to many of today's POW specific, directional decks. The extreme carve boards look somewhat like very sleek, racing version of those older rides.

Would it be safe to say that Hardboot, extreme carving evolved out of or _after_ POW specific swallow's or directional boards?

Or did much of that style develop later and sort of "De-volve" after twin boards became so ubiquitous?? :dunno:

Just wundrin' out loud!


Btw, I ride all my boards, directional & true twins with an asym ducked stance. (..never ever tried +/+) While I _can_ carve a little! (…when conditions are just right!) I can't reliably, repeatedly execute a nice thin, railed carving turn. Where I usually have it fall apart is near the completion of the turn just before I transition edges to link the next one. Frequently, I still see that little "swooshy" feathering at the finish of the carved turn.

Why would/should this be any harder ducked? I would have thought that being ducked has my weight distributed better, thus allowing for better control when shifting it thru the carved turn. That does not appear to be the case tho! (…Not for me anyhoo!) …again, juss wundrin'! :shrug:


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## Guest (Feb 28, 2015)

Here is a little history lesson:

All snowboards starting out were positive stance. Worst case it was a one strap 0 degree in the rear. All these boards were made for powder with very short tails or swallows. The early early ones were a gigantic stomp pad with a string attached to the nose. Everything was about carving. It was about surfing the mountain with style. Not the duck stance, can't carve hit a rail and "im a champion status." lol


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## Guest (Feb 28, 2015)

ETM said:


> sorry the heel was fine since you lean into the highback and the weight gets transferred to the board but when you go toe side the weight goes through the boot which flexes. It just equalled a lot of lost energy for me


Sounds like ur boots were too soft and or worn out. I had the 32 BOA myself and after a few days those boots were soft and they weren't stiff to begin with. Duck stance or positive stance the boots are still going to flex because you are leaning ur weight, i think with duck u use less knee and leg bend, more of a lean and let the edge go. The closer i get to a positive stance i notice i can carve harder personally but i changed to a stiffer boot and bindings.

Some bindings do make a difference on toe side because the straps will give more of. Locked in feeling over others. I ride the union factory's and they seem to give a more locked in feel compared to my old Burton Genesis coupled with my 32's were limp noodles.


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## schuyler (Jan 3, 2014)

32 *focus* boa golfer? theyre supposed to be the stiffest 32 makes, you really found em to be noodles?


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## Guest (Feb 28, 2015)

schuyler said:


> 32 *focus* boa golfer? theyre supposed to be the stiffest 32 makes, you really found em to be noodles?


Def were not stiff. Maybe by 32's standards they are stiff but i found them medium at best. But im also 6'4 225. Most of u guys a female sizes LOL.... Jk jk


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## KIRKRIDER (Mar 18, 2008)

+25/+18 on the camber A-Frame for groomers and +18 /+9 on the Hovercraft for pow. Higher + angles make for a more shoulder parallel and forward position, better for carving.


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## Guest (Feb 28, 2015)

KIRKRIDER said:


> +25/+18 on the camber A-Frame for groomers and +18 /+9 on the Hovercraft for pow. Higher + angles make for a more shoulder parallel and forward position, better for carving.


Funny thing is i got the hovercraft being delivered next week. Going to try the positive stance next time im out.

How is the hip movement in pow with the forward stance?


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## KIRKRIDER (Mar 18, 2008)

golfer1659 said:


> Funny thing is i got the hovercraft being delivered next week. Going to try the positive stance next time im out.
> 
> How is the hip movement in pow with the forward stance?


I will have to go by memory here, tomorrow will be my first day of this non-season in Tahoe. The Hovercaft (156) floats really well, so minimal inputs are all that's needed on powder. I will use the hips in bigger faster turns, otherwise you can do everithyng with your legs. Unless you're in trees, where you probably hip-turn the short tail around really quick. 
The fact is that the Hover carves really well too...so once the pow is tracked you can still have fun with + angles and carving.


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## Guest (Feb 28, 2015)

KIRKRIDER said:


> I will have to go by memory here, tomorrow will be my first day of this non-season in Tahoe. The Hovercaft (156) floats really well, so minimal inputs are all that's needed on powder. I will use the hips in bigger faster turns, otherwise you can do everithyng with your legs. Unless you're in trees, where you probably hip-turn the short tail around really quick.
> The fact is that the Hover carves really well too...so once the pow is tracked you can still have fun with + angles and carving.


Is the hovercraft ur go to board for everything. Im adding this too also the flagship and slash atv.


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## KIRKRIDER (Mar 18, 2008)

golfer1659 said:


> Is the hovercraft ur go to board for everything. Im adding this too also the flagship and slash atv.


I ride 2 boards, the A-Frame for carving and non-pow days and the Hovecraft for pow mostly. The Arbor is unbeatable on hard pack. It carves like a monorail, It's good on pow, but the float of the Hovy is unbeatable. Hovy is also much more forgiving, especially the first days of the season. The Arbor needs aggressive riding, and likes to go fast.
Buit you could do both with the Hovercraft. Again it carves really great for a pow board.


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## Guest (Feb 28, 2015)

KIRKRIDER said:


> I ride 2 boards, the A-Frame for carving and non-pow days and the Hovecraft for pow mostly. The Arbor is unbeatable on hard pack. It carves like a monorail, It's good on pow, but the float of the Hovy is unbeatable. Hovy is also much more forgiving, especially the first days of the season. The Arbor needs aggressive riding, and likes to go fast.
> Buit you could do both with the Hovercraft. Again it carves really great for a pow board.


I have a funny feeling the hovercraft is gonna eliminate my flagship somewhat. My slash Atv is the same thing as the arbor for you, monorail for groomer days.


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## KIRKRIDER (Mar 18, 2008)

golfer1659 said:


> I have a funny feeling the hovercraft is gonna eliminate my flagship somewhat. My slash Atv is the same thing as the arbor for you, monorail for groomer days.


The Jones is not as nimble as the Arbor, being so wide, but it's a very AT board, and easier to ride than the full camber. Of course it doesn't have the same PoP at the end of a turn. But feels really like a flying carpet.. I ride completely distracted omn it... do the same on the arbor and you're eating it. :hairy:


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## ETM (Aug 11, 2009)

golfer1659 said:


> Def were not stiff. Maybe by 32's standards they are stiff but i found them medium at best. But im also 6'4 225. Most of u guys a female sizes LOL.... Jk jk


I have actually got new boots that are stiffer but my season is over, will try again in december


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## deagol (Mar 26, 2014)

I ride positive angle, both feet. Don't know the angles right now, as I have 4 boards currently with slightly different angles. Went splitboarding in powder today, have positive angles on that board also...


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## schuyler (Jan 3, 2014)

etm - you found them soft as well? what are you going with from the focus boa? Was strongly considering them...


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## Spyrus (Mar 1, 2015)

When I first started riding I followed guys around that were positive stance guys. So I started to as well. I found it really helped to get started with carves and I could do some decent euro carves with soft boots. I was rocking +45 +33 I think and I couldn't handle chop or airs to save my life. The more I turned my feet the harder I could carve. After a couple years I took a snowboard instructors course and had to relearned how to ride. I was advised to switch as it was harmful to proper form (being turned so hard. You could do it but your range of movement is limited) It took some getting used to but being able to carve through chop, and handle airs made it a lot better to be duck. the wider the stance the more angle your feet should have to keep your joints lined up. I feel so sorry for box stance riders... I am at +24 -18 and love it. On those limitless edge hold days I can still euro, but at least I can break out the 540's in the back country and can handle big drops. Range of motion makes a world of difference!


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## snowklinger (Aug 30, 2011)

*if I say his name 3 times....*

I've been tempted to ski lately too guys.

Even Pauly Molitor looks good with the right lighting, booze and skirt.


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## ridinbend (Aug 2, 2012)

My years of surfing before moving to bend trained me to ride with a big duck stance. Carving is fun, but I prefer to surf the mountain and I couldn't do it like it's a wave with +/+ stance.


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