# Optically Correct Snowboard Goggles - Lens Design Vs. Real world



## Wiredsport (Sep 16, 2009)

Hi guys,

There has been a lot of awesome discussion lately about snowboard goggles and optical quality and I wanted to add some info.

All dual pane goggles have four optical surfaces. The inside and the outside of each of the two lenses. The lenses are of course curved. In a perfect world a curved lens would have no thickness and such a lens would "bend" no incoming light. In the real world, lenses (even thin lenses) do have thickness and if not adjusted for they would "bend" light. For this reason the inner curvature and outer curvature of each lens needs to be different. The free space between the two lenses also needs to be accounted for so each lens needs to have its own subtly different curvatures. That sounds difficult, but as the design of the production process is software driven, that part is actually easily accomplished. We live in cool times!

So, optically corrected lenses are perfect right? Well, theoretically yes. But...in terms of real world functionality this will be overridden by other factors. The big one is you. Goggles by design bend and twist. They need to do so to fit a variety of faces and also to deal with normal motion and of course impacts. The foam (and adhesive) that is used to separate the two lenses also needs to flex. So, the relationships between the curvatures mentioned above is A. Never the same for any two people (faces) B. constantly changing (throughout the day and over time as the structures of the goggle wear). For these reasons even optically correct goggles will always "bend" light and the degree to which this happens will vary greatly from rider to rider.


Polycarbonate is used by the major brands as the lens material. There are many trade names used for Polycarbonate. It is a great material in that it is very impact resistant and heat resistant and it has terrific optical properties. On the downside it scratches very easily. Multiple coatings and finishes are also used on snowboard goggles. Anything applied to the Polycarbonate lens impacts optical quality. Multi million dollar machines are used to apply these coatings. The plating machinery that is used to apply the "mirrored" multi color fade finishes is straight out of sci fi. The control required to apply these materials in depths that need to be even, attractive and varied in color is mind blowing. The depth of these finishes is measured in microns (millionths of a meter). Again, that sounds rad and it is...but...in every instance these finishes are very scratch sensitive. That refers to both the plating and the fog proofing. I mention this because even though the initial coatings are robotically applied at amazing tolerances, in the real world they can be degraded far more easily than I would like. This directly impacts optical quality. So on one hand we have these awesome materials that were developed in large by NASA for space visors and on the other hand we have a product that can be degraded by paper towel.

STOKED!


----------



## f00bar (Mar 6, 2014)

So what is the proper way to clean both the inside and outside of the lens? Through the various goggle threads I've seen different people say different things, sometimes contradicting each other. Especially when it comes to the anti fogging.


----------



## Wiredsport (Sep 16, 2009)

f00bar said:


> So what is the proper way to clean both the inside and outside of the lens? Through the various goggle threads I've seen different people say different things, sometimes contradicting each other. Especially when it comes to the anti fogging.


I posted the info below to give some brand suggestions. But, it all sounds a bit like hedging doesn't it? Very limited info on cleaning the inside of the goggles and when menioned it is the "dabbing" technique. Problem there (of course) is that dabbing does very little to clean your goggles . My best suggestion is work carefully and with microfiber. I clean my goggles very gently inside and out with a microfiber cloth and not that often. I usually rub very gently. The big one is get nothing gritty in there (including dirty water). Prevention is th...you get it.


*From smith.com:*

Do not use any paper products, including Kleenex. To clean the outside of the goggle you can breathe on the lens to create moisture, do not use any other liquids. Clean the outside with a soft micro fiber cloth such as Smith's Smudgebuster but this should not be used on the inside of the lens if it becomes wet or damp since it can cause scratches. If you need to clean the inside of your lens use a Smith Snow Eraser and dab your lens rather than wipe you lens, which can create scratches.

*From oakley.com :*

IRIDIUM® LENSES
Oakley Iridium® lens coating is engineered to reduce glare and improve contrast. An array of available tints allows the wearer to balance light transmission in any light condition. The 12-micron jacket of Iridium® must be treated with special care to avoid scratching. It is only recommended to use an Oakley Micro Bag or Oakley Lens Cleaning Kit to clean Oakley lens, do not use any other solvents, chemicals or third party cleaning kits because they have not been tested on our lenses and can possibly damage them.

*From dragon.com:*

We do not recommend using any lens or chemical cleaners as they can have an effect on the lens tint or the ionization coating. Damage caused by this is not covered by our warranty program.
Use the provided cloth bag to clean the lens. The bag is made of materials designed to not damage or scratch the lens. If you need to wet the area, dampen the cloth bag with a little bit of water only and gently dab the area. Avoid a scrubbing motion.
The inner clear part of the lens has an anti-fog treatment. Please take extra precaution when needing to clean this specific area. Gently dab the lens. Do not wipe or scrub the area.

*From graynegear.com:*

Scratching, Anti-Scratch, Films, Coatings and Treatments – NASA SHMASA

Snowboard and ski lenses are made of plastic. The plastics used are technically very impressive, but they remain plastic. These plastics are (relatively) very soft materials and on their own can be very easily scratched. To minimize this highly aggravating trait the goggle industry has utilized anti-scratch technologies that are largely derivative of designs that were initially developed by NASA to reduce scratching on their helmet visors (hey, they also did the early work on anti-fog for the same helmets).
NASA? That sounds awesome! These things must be scratch proof. Uhhmmmmm. Let’s go back to plastic is very soft. Regardless of what it is coated with, goggle lenses are very easily scratched. Not some of them. All of them. Whew! Glad to have that out there. The newest multi-layer films and coatings are far better than untreated plastics and will serve to protect your lenses somewhat. They can also help to reduce that appearance of some small scratches that might form. That said, your goggles are far from scratch proof. To the contrary, anything harder than the lens itself will scratch them if sufficient contact is made. Even mildly abrasive surfaces such as common paper towels will degrade goggle lenses.
That said, many riders can use a current lens for 3-5 years with exceptional clarity but it does take some planning and care. A microfiber bag (once the lens is dry) in a contact free area is the best practice for transport and storage. Cleaning with light pressure and no solvents using a microfiber cloth is advised.


----------



## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

Gotta give it to Oakley, they never miss an opportunity to try to sell you more shit and attempt to convince consumers that if it doesn't have that "O" on it, then it's worse than worthless.


----------



## chomps1211 (Mar 30, 2011)

After purchasing my Oakley Airbrake's and prior to getting educated on "proper" lens care? I used the micro fiber bag to clean the inside of my lenses numerous times. Including using my breath to create moisture to remove water spots. 

I can't say I notice any obvious scratches. However, when riding at night under lights? I do notice some diffraction and star flares. I presume this is due to having "micro" scratched the lenses. What I haven't noticed, is any increased instance of fogging. The lens flare although somewhat annoying? Isn't that big an issue with me. During the day, I can't tell the diff. anyway. 

Now,.. I never noticed much fogging from my cheapo Smiths the first few months I rode with them. So it may be I just don't run hot enough for that to be a problem for me, cheap or expensive goggles. (...I have & do ride warm spring conditions where I've sweated quite proffusely!) Or, the anti fog coating is pretty comparable in quality between major brands. Could also be riding midwest groomers, I don't test the goggles limits on our 90 sec./4 min. runs. :dunno:

I simply can't notice any real severe issues or degradation from having wiped down inside the lenses while wet/moist. If anyone has done the same and had completely different results, same or different brand of gog's? I'd be curious to hear what happened.


----------



## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

I just make a rule to never touch the inside of the lens. 

In terms of anti-fog, in my experience all of the major brands are pretty equal. They all do a really good job of making a goggle that doesn't have fogging issues as long as you don't do something stupid like putting them on top of your head.

As for the short runs, honestly that's harder on a goggle than longer runs. Fogging while riding really isn't much of an issue because of the increased airflow. The lift ride is normally when fogging will occur. The only fogging issues I've ever had is with old goggles on their last legs.


----------



## Nivek (Jan 24, 2008)

This is why I wear flat lenses. Frames are more comfortable as they are more comformable and then I don't look like an astronaut.

For fog. Yeah I just never touch the inside lens. And the only brand I've had to consciously think about where I was breathing and my jacket/facemask orientation was Smtih and my OG Electrics (my new ones are awesome). And that list includes Ashbury and Airblaster...


----------



## jdang307 (Feb 6, 2011)

Haven't had much problems with fogging but had my goggles completely froze over in Whistler last year during a storm. It wasn't the white out type of storm, but it was steadily coming down with no wind. But my goggle completely froze over and I had to ride down without any on. Murder as the snow hits your face like little bullets.


----------



## tokyo_dom (Jan 7, 2013)

Airblaster Replacement Lens (Baker Lens) SNOW Goggles Mens at Martini Northfield
Why is this not "the new industry standard" as suggested in the description? Why is the chrome layer always on the outside?

Why does Oakley offer tear-off protectors for their MX Airbrakes, but not for the snow goggles? Does the optical distortion on that application not matter for MX riders doing 150-200ft jumps?

Do Chrome on a layer that is not the outside layer + tear-off protectors for the outside layer (just because actual scratches (not just to the chrome coating) do happen, and they are annoying), and you would have a completely bulletproof goggle that would last until you got sick of the design...

But then i guess that doesnt help selling goggles/lenses. The current chrome on the outside implementation is a great way to keep me buying goggles every year *smh*


----------



## Wiredsport (Sep 16, 2009)

Hi Dom,

This is where practicality and style collide. 



> The new Baker Lens is a design that is totally bullet proof. It is a chrome mirror lens that has a clear lens on the outside. This means that you can rub, scratch or do whatever you want to the lens and it will not hurt the chrome. Trust us, this lens is the new industry standard.


The issue is that goggle chroming/mirroring is present for looks only. Putting that chroming behind the outer lens reduces the visual pop that is its sole function. 

STOKED!


----------

