# Camber, Rocker, and Progression



## BurtonAvenger (Aug 14, 2007)

Camber is for old men and skiers. Why ride something that makes snowboarding harder? I've now had 2 seasons on decks that are either rocker, reverse, 0 camber, etc. etc. I won't go back. They're way more playful in the park you still might catch an edge but that depends more on what you're trying and what deck you're riding. Just remember if you're going the anti camber route that you want to find a deck that doesn't have monsterous amounts of rocker or has nothing in the core to compensate for the looser feel.


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## twin89 (Jan 21, 2009)

thanks for the input guys, i'll take it into consideration.


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## AAA (Feb 2, 2008)

The choice depends on what kind of riding you want to do and the conditions you want to do it in. If you're a park freak or powder hound, rocker may provide more forgiving landings with spins or easier float in powder. Without the benefit of having ridden one, though, I'd say that if you like to ride the entire mountain or especially if you want to carve bulletproof groomers, a rockered board will give you the directional control of an inverted trashcan lid. 

Edge catching isn't nearly the deal that it's made out to be IMO, once someone has passed the rank beginner stage. So if "easy" is your goal, you very may find it soon enough with cambered boards if you intend to advance through the beginner stage and/or ride more than rails or pow. 

Cambered boards provide exceptional directional control and pop in edge transitions. They aren't going anywhere for those riding outside the park or on groomers. Think about it, what part of a rockered board is engaged on ice? Not much, except the section directly under your feet. That isn't going to provide much directional control in those conditions. Liveliness would be nonexistant, too, since there is no camber to provide rebound. So, pick accordingly.

Now for a real twist, consider this. The boards standing at the top of international race podiums are cambered designs, but with the front ~10 cm of the nose slightly decambered. The decambered nose provides faster turn initiation and less chatter in carves, while the main cambered section of the board provides exceptional directional control, edge hold, and rebound. This isn't just for serious racers, though. A side benefit to freecarvers is that the decambered nose doesn't hook up unless the board is set high on edge...meaning that when carving, the board uses the maximum available running length and stability when you want it, but if the rider needs or wants to skid some turns, the contact points with the lower edge angles are reduced and make a long carving board feel somewhat shorter and easier to slide. Look to high end manufacturers to find this combo, though.


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## twin89 (Jan 21, 2009)

yeah, im not really looking to lay down some real Euro carves as above hehe, but more progression in the sense of relaxed all mtn riding and beginner park riding. thx though =)


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## BurtonAvenger (Aug 14, 2007)

Why in the hell would someone on a hard boot set up even comment on this, that's fucking skiing with your skis stuck together. Dude you really need to learn more about anti cambered real snowboards before you speak. How come I can lay a Euro carve on a 151 k2 www rocker? God I wish people would think before they posted.


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## RickB (Oct 29, 2008)

BurtonAvenger said:


> Why in the hell would someone on a hard boot set up even comment on this, that's fucking skiing with your skis stuck together. Dude you really need to learn more about anti cambered real snowboards before you speak. How come I can lay a Euro carve on a 151 k2 www rocker? God I wish people would think before they posted.


lol at your hate.


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## jlm1976 (Feb 26, 2009)

> Originally Posted by BurtonAvenger
> God I wish people would think before they posted.


You should probably take your own advice.


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## BurtonAvenger (Aug 14, 2007)

jlm1976 said:


> You should probably take your own advice.


Why cause I called bull shit on the monoskier?


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## jlm1976 (Feb 26, 2009)

An alpine snowboard is still a snowboard. Sorry. 
Second, a cambered snowboard doesn't make snowboarding harder. It has it's advantages just like rocker does.


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## BurtonAvenger (Aug 14, 2007)

Care to give me a list of advantages that don't over lap any of the reverse cambered decks? Second a alpine board is a mono ski, hard boots most likely a Dalbelo Krypton or Full Tilt, non-releasable plate bindings made most likely by bomber, and a board that's about 120mm at the waist, and silly fucking spandex speed suits. Yep that's fucking skiing.


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## AAA (Feb 2, 2008)

Burton, Exactly what part of the pros / cons / decision making options in my post do you take issue with? Second, why the foul mouth and attitude?

Not that I care what anybody rides, but I stand by my recommendation that park & pow people may benefit from rocker, while all-mountain riders, freecarvers, or those who spend alot of time on groom might do better overall with a cambered stick. Sure guys with rocker boards may ride glare ice and guys with alpine boards occassionally jump in the pipe, but neither are best suited the task.

The reason I interjected with the alpine/racing topic was simply to demonstrate that on the extreme end of carving and world cup racing, camber is undisputably king (ie; carries through to even basic carving)...though with a new twist that incorporates what could be taken as "partial" rocker limited to just the board's nose. 

Finally, I don't know where you've been, but alpine boards are just that...alpine snowboards. Always have been, for the 2 decades that I've been riding and beyond. Just like park boards or pipe boards or powder boards or big mountain boards or whatever boards are all snowboards. Monoskiis are monoskiis and are something quite different, but probably would still have the same pros / cons on rocker vs. cambered. I don't know that even those are even made as narrow as the 12mm you mention, though? On the speed suit jab, if you're a racer (snowboarding, skiing, or otherwise), how do these not make sense on a race course? BTW, I've never seen anyone just freeriding in one, so I'm not sure what your point is.

If you can refrain from vulgarities and can enter a discussion like a civil human being, I welcome a response.


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## legallyillegal (Oct 6, 2008)

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah


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## twin89 (Jan 21, 2009)

legallyillegal said:


> hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah


QFT

<10 char>


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## RickB (Oct 29, 2008)

BurtonAvenger said:


> Care to give me a list of advantages that don't over lap any of the reverse cambered decks? Second a alpine board is a mono ski, hard boots most likely a Dalbelo Krypton or Full Tilt, non-releasable plate bindings made most likely by bomber, and a board that's about 120mm at the waist, and silly fucking spandex speed suits. Yep that's fucking skiing.


you need a hug


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## jimster716 (Feb 11, 2009)

I'm with BA on this one.

I'm in the position of starting my second season with 3 days so far. Last season I was on cambered boards with a lot of painful faceplants and backside slides (literally on my back). I enjoyed it but there were some seriously painful moments.

My first day of the second season was at Mammoth and I took my Capita Ultrafear FK anti-camber board and was amazed how much easier it was to just plain have fun. Didn't catch an edge all day and was able to maneuver where I wanted to.

My second day was at Mt. High and I took my cambered rock board and I caught edges on several occasions on sketchy terrain and grew frustrated and annoyed as if I was starting all over.

Today I took my Ultrafear FK instead to Mt. High and had a much better day...better meaning more fun and more satisfying.

I don't need precision edgehold on a slalom Olympic race and I'm not doing 50ft kickers so I'm left to wonder why cambered boards are offered for rentals at resorts. The number one issue in getting new people to keep riding IMO is that after the first lesson or so, a lot of people experience pain they haven't felt and grow frustrated from constant edge catch.

People may say reverse camber is cheating but who cares...I thought the point was to have fun. As long as I can carve where I want to, be able to hit a box or rail easier, and make it down safely at any resort I choose then that's what matters to me. I'll leave the camber boards to people who aspire to do big jumps, slalom/snowboard cross, and splash down big spines in AK...I think I'll just enjoy my time with RC.


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## legallyillegal (Oct 6, 2008)

snowboarding is worse than skiing


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## BurtonAvenger (Aug 14, 2007)

Anyone ever seen someone slalom water ski? Yeah that's hard booting enough said. Throw backs to the age when snowboarding almost became queer thank fucking god freestyle was invented and people saw a need to not ride a plank of crap like a silly mono skier. God damn grape smugglers.

Camber is dead anyone that says you get better pop, edge hold, blah blah blah is fucking fooling themselves. I've seriously ridden every variation out there on the planet and almost everyone has it completely dialed in. Standard camber as we know it is done for especially between the feet. 

No longer will people have to set up to pop, have to load and unload a board using their knees and upper body, have to initiate a turn from the nose of their boards. It makes more sense to initiate from the feet and that's exactly what every anti-camber does even 0 camber. The "looser" feeling is how it should be more skateboard inspired where you don't have to spend more time setting up, you don't have an upward pressure that's always a constant that you have to weight (i.e. causing fatigue and knee issues), turn initiation at the furthest points from the main area of steering (ankles). 

The fact that someone is saying you don't get a solid all mountain board out of any of these is a crock of crap. Now unless you're going to the extremes of something like a Signal Park Rocker or K2 Gyrator most fall into the category of all mountain versatile. All you have to do is look at what's inside a board and what variation of anti-camber it has.

I recommend you read these 2 posts before trying to speak outside your element. 
The Angry Snowboarder » Blog Archive » Camber Theories Explained
The Angry Snowboarder » Blog Archive » Camber Theories In Use

As far as instructors I think most need to learn their fucking place and that's not talking about equipment (general statement not directing it at you Scott). In the last 8 years of working in shops they've been one of the worst things I've ever dealt with with giving horrible advice. It's retarded to say someone shouldn't be put on a rockered board to start with. The big companies K2, Burton, etc. are all doing something with beveled bases, rockered tips, and softer flexes. Like Jimbo was saying it's easier to get people involved this way. Also not letting an instructor test on something just shows that they're scared of change because someone might do something different which goes back to the fact they ride like frigging Robots and are so easy to spot. They look like they're about to bust into the YMCA when making turns down the hill. But that's another issue. 

As far as me personally deal with the vernacular I use and my choice of words it's who I am and I'm not going to change.


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## legallyillegal (Oct 6, 2008)

any board with camber in it is a piece of crap


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## Guest (Nov 9, 2009)

Snowolf said:


> I don`t know if it is still true, but I read a couple of years back, that in New Zealand, their AASI equivalent does not allow their instructors to use rockers when taking exams because without camber, they cannot demonstrate "correct" riding method. On the same note, I read that they do not recommend teaching or learning on a rocker because they are "so easy" that the new rider really does not learn proper technique that a cambered board forces. Their thought I guess is that it is best to learn correctly on a camber before going to a rocker as learning to ride on a rocker allows you to "get away with" bad habits that will limit you later on.....anyone know anything about this?


The NZSIA (NZ standards) don't mind if you ride on a reverse camber board - but there is a carving element that some friends who have been riding reverse camber boards have found a little difficult. 

And I know instructors who wouldn't recommend riding on RC board. But at the resort I was working at (Coronet Peak) the rental boards (at least for kids) where slightly reverse camber or zero camber. But I can see your point with letting people ride on cambers so they didn't develop bad habits. 

They definitely wont send you away if your riding a reverse camber. This is how its been for atleast the last year - and to my knowledge the year before that.

On the topic of reverse camber vs. camber. There are always going to be people who will prefer one type of board to the other, so none of them are going anywhere fast - as someone mentioned earlier there is no real problem with crossing over in my experience. It normally takes about 1-2 runs for it to start feeling natural on either type of boards. 

I also think there is really not as much difference as people are making out to be - I can still carve and ride groomers comfortably on a reverse camber and can still ride the park comfortably and mostly catch free on a cambered board

The only differences I've found 
- Slightly less rebound and pop on a RC board, but this has been combated by carbon inserts in the nose or tail of most of the newer boards 
- Slightly more washout or reverting on the landing of spins, I've found that MTX helps with biting into the landing a little bit more but this may be an advantage more than a set back in some peoples mind
- I still have not experienced the squirrely/instability at high speeds that some have come across or the extreme difficulty with carving.

Just a suggestion but maybe this a problem of technique rather than equipment. If I did buy another board it would be a Reverse Camber but only because I already have Camber - Because I see the advantage of having both and choosing.

BurtonAvenger: What makes you think that instructors don't have any idea when it comes to equipment - I will generally ride 4-5 different boards for a month of so (through a testing program - where indepth reports and reviews are required) each season along with most of my friends boards for a day or so (or atleast a few runs) and taking out some boards for demo days (which gives me about 30+ different boards that I've had experience with this season). 

I have also worked at a shop before this. And I would say that most instructors have a good idea of how boards work (I would hope so atleast) and also which boards they prefer and would recommend. 

Also your confused - mono skiing and alpine boards are completely different things and carving is undoubtedly still snowboarding. And trying to justify otherwise is pretty retarded. 

Mono ski









Carving board









This turned into quite a long post.. :laugh:


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## twin89 (Jan 21, 2009)

hmm i think that ima have to fall on the rocker side of this now as what i want to do is progress some all mtn relaxed freestlye. ( plus i already got 2 cambered boards and i know what they are all about)

ima prob end up getting the horrorscope fk. (i don't care for the graphic much though)


That mono ski made me laugh in rl ahah


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## Guest (Nov 9, 2009)

Yeah would def go for the reverse camber if you've already got camber boards. Also have heard really good things about capitas durability too and they're pretty fun board to ride. And yeah that mono skiier is awesome!


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## twin89 (Jan 21, 2009)

yeah i have a stairmaster that i abuse a lot and it has held up great


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## BurtonAvenger (Aug 14, 2007)

NZ_Josh said:


> BurtonAvenger: What makes you think that instructors don't have any idea when it comes to equipment - I will generally ride 4-5 different boards for a month of so (through a testing program - where indepth reports and reviews are required) each season along with most of my friends boards for a day or so (or atleast a few runs) and taking out some boards for demo days (which gives me about 30+ different boards that I've had experience with this season).


 And you're one of the few and not in the mass populace I deal with on a daily basis. Having worked for the Vail Resorts employee store instructors were the bane of our existence they'd bring they're "clients" in to get them their deal on gear, sit there talk about gear they know nothing about, repeatedly tell me and my co workers (pretty much everyone in the shop is either a product tester, pro rider, olympian, etc. etc. ) that we can't ride, and generally make an ass of themselves. 98% of them couldn't tell the difference between cap and sidewall or what carbon fiber is or does.



> I have also worked at a shop before this. And I would say that most instructors have a good idea of how boards work (I would hope so atleast) and also which boards they prefer and would recommend.


 You can hope but once again see above statement. At least you come from a shop background.



> Also your confused - mono skiing and alpine boards are completely different things and carving is undoubtedly still snowboarding. And trying to justify otherwise is pretty retarded.


 Not confused it's the same thing, argue all you want. After having to deal with the idiot monoboarder olympic wanna be's time trial practices at A basin, The nastar mono fruitbooter contest at Steamboat, and multiple shop run ins with these fruits I can safely say it's skiing. It's like rollerblading just don't do it.



Snowolf said:


> I know you are talking in general terms and know there are3 exceptions. I tend to agree with you that some of my cohorts have egos the size of Jupiter and gain a grain of industry "inside information" and suddenly think they are equipment experts...I worked with one such PITA here at Meadows who is fortunately no longer with us. I will say that on the other side of that coin, that sometimes it is not the fault of the instructor. A never ever in a class usually asks for our recommendations and we will try to help as best we can. Some have better knowledge than others, but the noob tends to place us in an unrealistic position of "authority" and will often take a well intentioned "my favorite board is...." statement and suddenly think that`s the end all of board advice. I try to tell people in very general terms what makes a good board for them to progress with and why and remind them to talk to many people and get good opinions on specifics.


 Yep see above rant. Also thought you'd find humor in this in the back of the shop we had a tally board with the quote "I'm an instructor/ I used to race" because those are the two biggest groups of douche nozzles ever. Any time we're selling something and someone would say either of those phrases we'd slap a mark on it, we'd hit the 200 mark by March usually.



> I really think that the industry and AASI itself should be more proactive in including instructors in equipment clinics and publications relating to industry trends in a learning/teaching focus. It would help us and out customers and maybe save you and other shop guys a little stress. I voluntarily sit in on clinics at Hillcrest when I can; just did 2 hours with the Rossi rep and I got some good basic info about their product including skis..:thumbsup:


 Or it would evoke the bro brah attitude in them because they're now on the "inside" dealing with a rep directly. It's like on hill reps what the hell do they actually do, sure in the past it might have been a great method of helping sell skis, but for snowboarding I'd have to say no. Especially in the tech age we're in something like 82% of people prefer to take the advice of a blogger over a shop person now.









> On an instinctive level I whole heartedly agree with this and the point Jimbo made. For every 10 never evers in classes I would be surprised if, on average, 3 go on to become snowboarders. If getting these folks on a piece of equipment that makes them have far more fun and see real progression in lesson one, more would be stoked to come again.


 You and I get it, why can't they? Oh that's right they're old!



> Again, I fault the industry and AASI for not educating instructors better on new technology (I know it`s not "new" unless 1980 is new to you, but you know what I mean). For example, I have only played around with rockers a little bit and I cannot honestly tell you if, as a teacher, our standard method as used for cambered boards would be accurate for someone riding a rocker. I really think that this lack of education is doing us and our customers a huge disservice. I think every ski school out there should really look at how rockers are going to change the way teach and get instructors up to speed on them. I will do this on my own this year because I give a shit and take pride in what I do, but you know as well as I, for every decent instructor out there there are 10 "kids with boards looking for the free pass" who can barely even show up to line up on time and ready to work.


 You think it's bad at Meadows think about the turn over rate here in Summit County or just the big 3 Keystone, Copper, and Breckenridge. I think their turn over rate is something like 80% for new instructors plus with the job crisis we had last year they hired so many people that had maybe 10 to 20 days on snow in their life. Not exactly a great scenario for teaching. You know whole blind leading the blind thing going on.








> I hate to say it, but I could not agree more in many ways. I have some very frustrating personal experience with this from my level 2. I think some of the old dogs in the system get stuck in a 1990 time warp and can`t get out of it. They have this mental that there is only one correct way to ride and anything outside of that little window is "wrong". I have no problem with the organization`s ideas on teaching method and movement concepts and even basic riding technique as it relates to efficiency and "general riding" based on the "average" athletic rider.
> 
> Where the system breaks down in my opinion is not allowing the rider to adapt to the terrain and conditions while riding the same piece of equipment. In addition, outside of the Adaptive programs, the organization is inflexible in it`s judgmental attitude when it comes to taking into account riders` personal issues such as age, past injuries and physical limitations. I have seen awesome teachers who can also ride very well, consistently fail these exams due to some minor technicality such as "not riding with enough flex in the ankle" without taking into account the guy is 50 and has bad Arthritis from having broke both ankles. True story...the guy can out ride the examiner, but because he can not display the "proper" range of motion, he fails his tasks.
> 
> ...


Oh I can't stand the higher ups that think they're gods gift to snowboarding cause they became a level 3 instructor back in 1990 or some bull shit like that. The good ones are few and far between the bad ones are always at the forefront. I've had some great personal experiences with them.

Last season I was hiking the little pipe at Breck seeing how far I could boost on a board I was testing cause it was a super "green" deck and I wanted to see how it would hold up to another deck. So I'm boosting and boosting just practicing my straight airs to check this deck out. Instructor rolls up and instantly starts going in to how I need to move my shoulder like this, drop my shoulder like that, not turn my legs when I'm boning out a trick, blah blah blah. I'm like yeah ok, then he drops in and can't even make it up the vert. WTF? Dude you can't ride pipe don't tell me what to do, plus I have severe limitations because of my shoulders. At least when I go to Woodward and the guys out there point stuff out to me I tell them my problem and they say try it like this.

Another example I'm riding Steamboat about 4 or 5 years ago and there was some rally thing going on. So I roll into the Mavericks pipe and dude starts pointing out to his class all my flaws, half of them couldn't drop into the god damn pipe!


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