# Why are Skiers faster?



## MadBomber53045

off the top of my head there's the fact that they have poles and can continue building extra momentum as much as they want...


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## GC24

They wear tighter clothes, and are therefore more aerodynamic.

I dont know maybe less surface area contacting the snow?


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## tomtom88

GC24 said:


> They wear tighter clothes, and are therefore more aerodynamic.
> 
> I dont know maybe less surface area contacting the snow?


I definitely think less surface area is the main reason. Less surface area=less friction.


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## bakesale

Skis are longer, less surface area and the weight is distributed properly for speed due to mounting the bindings more setback and only having one binding per ski.


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## freshy

It's because their ski's are so long. If you rode a 200 cm board you'd keep up.


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## twin89

GC24 said:


> They wear tighter clothes, and are therefore more aerodynamic.
> 
> I dont know maybe less surface area contacting the snow?


Tighter clothes is definitely an advantage, but i duno why those gaper gaps don't slow them down, they seem to attract large amounts of air resistance.

i thought more surface area = more speed for sliding on snow, cause your weight is distributed over a larger area.

hmm interesting hehe.


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## legallyillegal

because you're too slow and should go back to pizza skiing


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## Leo

There are a lot of reasons why skiers are faster. First and foremost, skis are much longer than snowboards. They are also riding on two of them. Have you ever rode a longer board? You will notice that the longer the board, the faster you are.

Another huge advantage they have is that they are facing forward. This matters because they can do much deeper tucks than we can. Even if we squat, we will never be as aerodynamic as a squatted skier. Slalom racers take aerodynamics a step further. They wear ski tights and use aerodynamic helmets. Some poles even have aerodynamic tip baskets further adding to their reduction of drag.

The comment about the poles is actually wrong. They mainly use the poles to provide support for faster and tighter turns. The only time they really push off on them is when they are propelling themselves off the top of the slope or when they are trying to skate around on flat land. You'll never see a slalom racer using the poles mid-run to push themselves. They simply do one huge push at the beginning and go into a tucked position.

This is why I always laugh at my friends who are fairly new to snowboarding and think they can make themselves look better than me by flying down the slopes faster. It never fails, someone in their second season saying, "let's race and see who is faster". I tell them I am done with that stage. I am all about improving my other skills like riding switch, hitting jumps, butters etc... If I wanted to just bomb down the slopes all the time, I would have taken up skiing. Snowboarding for me is about the tricks and fun of carving and fish tailing (sliding).

Actually, I do want to learn how to ski someday 

It's a fact, skis are more versatile than snowboards. But they are also more dangerous


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## Mr. Polonia

i once pondered about this same question...i was getting kinda pissed off as i saw a skiier barely putting an effort and i couldnt keep up with him.

but the answer to that is pretty much how they are faced in relation to the slope. they are faced fwd and can tuck themselves in better as well as how they distribute pressure on all their edges


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## SPAZ

freshy, i could go for one of those on a pow day :laugh:


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## Guest

twin89 said:


> I really don't get it, skiers that are not the pizza fools are definitely faster than boarders that aren't side slippers.
> 
> any one know why skis are faster than boards?


I get plenty of boarders asking how I go so fast on my board. I ask "when is the last time your board was waxed and edges tuned". They look at me like I'm from another planet. They probably stick to the snow and have dull edges that can't bite into the groomers out here.


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## Leo

pyro13g said:


> I get plenty of boarders asking how I go so fast on my board. I ask "when is the last time your board was waxed and edges tuned". They look at me like I'm from another planet. They probably stick to the snow and have dull edges that can't bite into the groomers out here.


Noob snowboarders? Anyone that snowboards that doesn't know about waxing or tuning is new to the sport. This goes exactly with my post about fairly new snowboarders just wanting to go fast and bomb down hills. "Want to race?" :laugh:

You can wax your board all you want, heck even put some real butter on it right before your run and you'll still never be as fast as a good skier. Hell, you can wear those ski tights too and still lose :cheeky4:


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## lilfoot1598

Skis are longer than snowboards? The last time I checked, a 150 ski is shorter than a 151 snowboard.

If you want to go faster on a snowboard, get a longer snowboard. If you want to go faster on skis, buy longer skis. 

My first skis were 144s. My snowboards have ranged in length from 141 to 145. 

Not sure how skis are longer....


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## Grizz

Because they don't have to strap in at the top. 



Great posts in this one.

I think the slight difference in speed is related to three issues.

1. Our bodies move more efficiently forward than laterally. When you turn on skis there is body symmetry from a left turn to a right turn, on a board there is asymmetry from a toe side to heel side. The lack of symmetry could be a cause of the speed difference.

2. Because the feet and legs are independent of each other it's easier to generate speed while turning. Think of the difference between a rollerblader skating compared to pumping a skate board with both feet on the deck.

3. Equipment. Long and skinny is faster than short and fat. 




It's kind of a similar situation so I'll throw this out. Where I live there is an annual down wind race for windsurfers and kiters. The guy who comes in first uses a kite but rides water skis instead of a kite board.


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## Leo

lilfoot1598 said:


> Skis are longer than snowboards? The last time I checked, a 150 ski is shorter than a 151 snowboard.
> 
> If you want to go faster on a snowboard, get a longer snowboard. If you want to go faster on skis, buy longer skis.
> 
> My first skis were 144s. My snowboards have ranged in length from 141 to 145.
> 
> Not sure how skis are longer....


Ummm... skis are longer in comparison to the rider using them. A snowboarder on a 151 should be bigger than a skier on a 150. Unless you are skiing on those skate skis or whatever you call them. Especially with slalom, the racers use skis that are substantially longer than their height. Of course, both skiers and snowboarders have a wide variety of sizing options, but we are talking in relation to going fast. Even if the skis are the same size or even smaller than the snowboard, the skier is going to beat you in a down-hill race. There is just no getting around their ability to reduce wind drag and weight shifting.


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## Grizz

Leo said:


> Especially with slalom, the racers use skis that are substantially longer than their height.


I think you've got it backwards. In racing, Slalom skis are the shortest, followed by GS, Super G, and the longest are Downhill. Modern slalom skis will always be shorter than the skiers height.

For what it's worth my slalom skis are a 168, my all around snowboard is a 167 and I'm 186 tall.


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## Leo

Grizz said:


> I think you've got it backwards. In racing, Slalom skis are the shortest, followed by GS, Super G, and the longest are Downhill. Modern slalom skis will always be shorter than the skiers height.
> 
> For what it's worth my slalom skis are a 168, my all around snowboard is a 167 and I'm 186 tall.


Wait, slalom is the straight racing isn't it? I'm not talking about the one with the gates. Oh wait, I'm thinking the Downhill... Sorry. Thanks for the clarification :thumbsup:


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## MadBomber53045

Leo said:


> Noob snowboarders? Anyone that snowboards that doesn't know about waxing or tuning is new to the sport. This goes exactly with my post about fairly new snowboarders just wanting to go fast and bomb down hills. "Want to race?" :laugh:
> 
> You can wax your board all you want, heck even put some real butter on it right before your run and you'll still never be as fast as a good skier. Hell, you can wear those ski tights too and still lose :cheeky4:


just because someone happens to prefer speed to learning tricks doesn't make them new to the sport. I enjoy watching people ride park but have little to no interest in it. I'd much rather go fast and enjoy the wind in my face.


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## Reede

Grizz said:


> Because they don't have to strap in at the top.
> 
> 
> 
> Great posts in this one.
> 
> I think the slight difference in speed is related to three issues.
> 
> 1. Our bodies move more efficiently forward than laterally. When you turn on skis there is body symmetry from a left turn to a right turn, on a board there is asymmetry from a toe side to heel side. The lack of symmetry could be a cause of the speed difference.
> 
> *2. Because the feet and legs are independent of each other it's easier to generate speed while turning. Think of the difference between a rollerblader skating compared to pumping a skate board with both feet on the deck.*
> 
> 3. Equipment. Long and skinny is faster than short and fat.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's kind of a similar situation so I'll throw this out. Where I live there is an annual down wind race for windsurfers and kiters. The guy who comes in first uses a kite but rides water skis instead of a kite board.



I was going to say something like a more efficient turning technique but this nails it.

Snowboards lose a lot of speed in their turns, if you point yourself downhill and straightline it you will probably find both are about the same, but as soon as you start turning a snowboard loses a lot more speed than skis do.

That and the fact we spend half our day strapping in/out of our bindings.


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## Leo

MadBomber53045 said:


> just because someone happens to prefer speed to learning tricks doesn't make them new to the sport. I enjoy watching people ride park but have little to no interest in it. I'd much rather go fast and enjoy the wind in my face.


I didn't say everyone that wants to go fast is new. I said that is what most new snowboarders want to do. And not just go fast, they always insist on racing you. Also, there are more to tricks than just jibbing in the park. I want to learn as many ground tricks as I can. I just like how they look while you shred downhill.


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## Leo

Reede said:


> That and the fact we spend half our day strapping in/out of our bindings.


Speak for yourself. That doesn't apply to Flow or similar system users  :thumbsup:

By the way, even in straight line any good skier will still beat you. Tuck and weight shifting flexibility for the win.


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## Gnarly

Given equal length board and skis, it's not that a snowboarder can't keep up with a skier, it's the increased control factor that having 2 sticks strapped to your feet -vs- 1 plank gives.

Skiers are faster because they have more control when they turn and they can stop faster. They have 2 metal edges helping them turn and stop, where we only have 1...So even though they may be going way fast for someone on a snowboard, they feel more in control than a snowboarder would feel at that speed.

I used to ski and I can definitely say that it's pretty damn scary riding a snowboard 50mph down a run compared to skiing 50mph down a run.


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## MadBomber53045

Leo said:


> I didn't say everyone that wants to go fast is new. I said that is what most new snowboarders want to do. And not just go fast, they always insist on racing you. Also, there are more to tricks than just jibbing in the park. I want to learn as many ground tricks as I can. I just like how they look while you shred downhill.


good post man! that paints a different picture of you in my head. i don't know many novice boarders so i can't say anything about the racing stuff, but i enjoy learning butters and other little ground stuff too. i agree that throwing em into a run is a great way to mix it up and add style. i just never got into hitting features in the park.


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## Flick Montana

I'd guess that more surface area on a board creates more friction and doesn't allow the kind of speed you get on skis. Having said that, I've seen boarders bombing runs just as fast as any skier so unless you're talking about racing, I don't think the speed difference is that big.


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## Bones

lilfoot1598 said:


> Skis are longer than snowboards? The last time I checked, a 150 ski is shorter than a 151 snowboard.


It's the length to width to weight ratio. Just like a boat (waterline to beam to displacement)

2 longer edges for a skiers, half the weight on each so less displacement, half the weight = less digging in, so less deep cuts and less exposed "beam" at the "waterline"


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## hanzosteel

so it was explained to me once that skiiers and boarders alike both slide on a micro-thin layer of water. that is how we glide across snow as opposed to sticking to it. the water is formed by the application of pressure upon our edges and bases generating friction and heat upon the snow surface. the micron thin film of water acts as a lubricant. you don't see a trail of water behind you because it instantly re-freezes. however, at some point, enough water will cause suction and too much friction on the base, thus dragging your ski or board slower. more base = more suction = more drag = less speed. thus, waxing and structuring was born - waxing fills all the voids to prevent too much water from accumulating and structuring creates micro grooves to channel the water so it doesn't build to the point it drags you down. the same science applies to ice skating - pressure on the skate edge melts the ice and the water lubricates the surface for glide. i suppose that's why alpine boards are so narrow - not that anyone rides alpine boards anymore. so, basically, we'll always be slower. discuss.


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## PaoloSmythe

Stiff boards go faster than flexy ones; the rigid structure allows them to rip thru lumps rather than bend to fit them; and so they seem faster coz they travel less distance.

the same applies to skiers; being a bunch of sticks, their wooden structure also allows them to travel less distance as they go top to bottom. you see skiers have 3 poles in reality, one in each hand, and the third up their arse.


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## SnowProRick

Gnarly said:


> Given equal length board and skis, it's not that a snowboarder can't keep up with a skier, it's the increased control factor that having 2 sticks strapped to your feet -vs- 1 plank gives.
> 
> Skiers are faster because they have more control when they turn and they can stop faster. They have 2 metal edges helping them turn and stop, where we only have 1...So even though they may be going way fast for someone on a snowboard, they feel more in control than a snowboarder would feel at that speed.
> 
> I used to ski and I can definitely say that it's pretty damn scary riding a snowboard 50mph down a run compared to skiing 50mph down a run.


Ding, ding... 2 independent feet is the reason. On skis if one edge goofs up, you have edge #2 to fall back on and stay in control. On a board, if edge #1 goes, you're SOL. I comes down to confidence. Two edges gives skiers much more confidence to go faster. Good snowboarders go faster than most recreational skiers, due to confidence. 

--rick


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## Leo

hanzosteel said:


> so it was explained to me once that skiiers and boarders alike both slide on a micro-thin layer of water. that is how we glide across snow as opposed to sticking to it. the water is formed by the application of pressure upon our edges and bases generating friction and heat upon the snow surface. the micron thin film of water acts as a lubricant. you don't see a trail of water behind you because it instantly re-freezes. however, at some point, enough water will cause suction and too much friction on the base, thus dragging your ski or board slower. more base = more suction = more drag = less speed. thus, waxing and structuring was born - waxing fills all the voids to prevent too much water from accumulating and structuring creates micro grooves to channel the water so it doesn't build to the point it drags you down. the same science applies to ice skating - pressure on the skate edge melts the ice and the water lubricates the surface for glide. i suppose that's why alpine boards are so narrow - not that anyone ridehttp://www.snowboardingforum.com/s alpine boards anymore. so, basically, we'll always be slower. discuss.


Oh God, you just reminded me of my chemistry class *barf* :thumbsdown:

This is very true though. Just like Ice Skating, we are actually riding on a thin layer of water. Unless you are stuck in slush which is already a lot of water


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## PaoloSmythe

SnowProRick said:


> Ding, ding... 2 independent feet is the reason. On skis if one edge goofs up, you have edge #2 to fall back on and stay in control. On a board, if edge #1 goes, you're SOL. I comes down to confidence. Two edges gives skiers much more confidence to go faster. Good snowboarders go faster than most recreational skiers, due to confidence.
> 
> --rick


this is true enuff; confidence = more flat base riding.

most sideways sliders would swear that they rocket flat base everywhere already..... but then most also claim to be carving wizards as well.:laugh:

and so it comes down to technique. i think this holds more truth than for example, the claim that standing front on is more aerodynamic than sideways:dunno:


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## PaoloSmythe

Leo said:


> Oh God, you just reminded me of my chemistry class *barf*


a post full of physics reminds you of chemistry? you failed both i presume?


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## Leo

PaoloSmythe said:


> a post full of physics reminds you of chemistry? you failed both i presume?


Did you read any of the post I was commenting on? Try reading the post that I quoted. You failed at English I presume? 

Friction and heat causing snow to create a thin layer of water to form under the skaters blade is chemistry my friend. The speed at which that skater is traveling is physics.

As for your comment about skiers facing forward... They aren't just standing when they are bombing down the hill. They go into a tucked position that creates much less air drag than us side-ways squatted snowboarders. Never mind the fact that most ski racers use aerodynamic helmets and clothes as well. You failed physics too I presume 

All else equal, in a straight line or one with turns, an equally skilled skier will always beat out a snowboarder. Doesn't matter how much balls the snowboarder has. It's physics and chemistry. You can't beat science. Skiers have better aerodynamics, much more edge control, better weight distribution, and more effective edges.

Thank you, come again.


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## SnowProRick

Leo said:


> Did you read any of the post I was commenting on? Try reading the post that I quoted. You failed at English I presume?
> 
> Friction and heat causing snow to create a thin layer of water to form under the skaters blade is chemistry my friend. The speed at which that skater is traveling is physics.
> 
> Thank you, come again.


Friction is physics, static friction, kinetic friction, mu, etc...

I see all this talk about flat basing and tucking and tight clothes having something to do with the difference. Reminds me of a neat story...

Some years back Alberto Tomba (kind of the Italian Bode Miller of the '90s) came to MN for some charity race. It was a simple, short NASTAR coarse. He DESTROYED the hill record (same hill where Lindsey Vonn came from). He said if you knew what you were doing, it was faster to turn than to bomb flat based. The race director went to the top and bombed the run and still didn't beat Tomba's time turning through the coarse. When you carve skis or a board proper, you will get an acceleration out of each turn that will increase your speed. That is what really good skiers and riders can do. I think skis will give you more because they are stiffer with more 'snap.'

--rick


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## Leo

SnowProRick said:


> *Friction is physics, static friction, kinetic friction, mu, etc...*
> 
> I see all this talk about flat basing and tucking and tight clothes having something to do with the difference. Reminds me of a neat story...
> 
> Some years back Alberto Tomba (kind of the Italian Bode Miller of the '90s) came to MN for some charity race. It was a simple, short NASTAR coarse. He DESTROYED the hill record (same hill where Lindsey Vonn came from). He said if you knew what you were doing, it was faster to turn than to bomb flat based. The race director went to the top and bombed the run and still didn't beat Tomba's time turning through the coarse. When you carve skis or a board proper, you will get an acceleration out of each turn that will increase your speed. That is what really good skiers and riders can do. I think skis will give you more because they are stiffer with more 'snap.'
> 
> --rick


Friction is physics, but I am concentrating on what the friction is doing to the ice. This is what hanzo was also pointing out. We are not talking about the friction per se, but what the friction from the metal edges and base is doing to the snow beneath them. That thin layer of water that we are boarding on is chemistry my friend. Oh, I forgot to say the pressure as well. Pressure causes the snow to melt under the edges too. That is another aspect of chemistry.

You need movement for friction (dunno how static works, maybe movement at a molecular level?), that is physics. What the friction is doing to the snow... that is chemistry.

I also never said anything about straight lines being faster. I said turns or straight, a skier is faster than a snowboarder. Aerodynamics still enhance your speed and you'll eventually have to do spurts of straight lines when racing even with turns anyways. Nothing you can do to prove that a snowboarder is faster. Skiers win this debate hands down due to so many factors.


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## arsenic0

hanzosteel said:


> so it was explained to me once that skiiers and boarders alike both slide on a micro-thin layer of water. that is how we glide across snow as opposed to sticking to it. the water is formed by the application of pressure upon our edges and bases generating friction and heat upon the snow surface. the micron thin film of water acts as a lubricant. you don't see a trail of water behind you because it instantly re-freezes. however, at some point, enough water will cause suction and too much friction on the base, thus dragging your ski or board slower. more base = more suction = more drag = less speed. thus, waxing and structuring was born - waxing fills all the voids to prevent too much water from accumulating and structuring creates micro grooves to channel the water so it doesn't build to the point it drags you down. the same science applies to ice skating - pressure on the skate edge melts the ice and the water lubricates the surface for glide. i suppose that's why alpine boards are so narrow - not that anyone rides alpine boards anymore. so, basically, we'll always be slower. discuss.


More or less your right...

If you want to see it in action you should check out this vid Hertel Wax did a while ago, it shows some of the chemical reactions of the wax...i found it quite interesting.
YouTube - We Have It They Don't (All Temperature Ski Wax)


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## Leo

arsenic0 said:


> More or less your right...
> 
> If you want to see it in action you should check out this vid Hertel Wax did a while ago, it shows some of the chemical reactions of the wax...i found it quite interesting.
> YouTube - We Have It They Don't (All Temperature Ski Wax)


Careful arsenic, someone might chime in saying this is about physics and that you probably failed it :cheeky4:

Because we all know chemical reactions is physics


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## hhhhhhhhhhh

Complete outsider here, just leeroying on this forum after finding it on google...

Sorry Leo you are mistaken, what you call chemistry is physics. Fricton causing ice to melt (friction as in kinetic energy transrerred into heat) is all about the state of matter of water; a solid turning into a liquid. If you were on caesium edged boards, that would be chemistry, and a little too much "pop" for a mortal!

(that being said, don't worry too much about definitions, science is all around us, and is us, its only us humans who want to categorise what we see around us into perceived qualitative cultural norms right? keep on enjoying the sensational experiences you personally experienc in boarding!).


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