# Retail Rant



## P3 Mammoth (Dec 3, 2011)

Food for thought.

Retail Rant: “No Questions Asked” Return Policies Are Killing The Industry | Features, Research, Retail News, retail profiles, retail round table, Shop Spy, skateboarding, snowboarding, VIDEOS | TransWorld Business


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## killclimbz (Aug 10, 2007)

Return
Every
Item

Been that way for as long as I can remember...


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## ThunderChunky (Oct 1, 2011)

I don't really get how it hurts the companies. They are still getting the sales for the boards to the retailer. The retailer is the one taking the hit. A guy buys the board from the retailer, at which point the board company already has the sale for the board and are done with the sales, then they break it and return it for another board that has already been purchased from the board company. The retailer is selling two board for one price. Doesn't seem like it hurts the companies to me.


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## stan_darsh (Mar 10, 2013)

i bought my boards from local shops - i never even thought to check out the bigger outdoor supply places cause i figured they'd have shit boards... as a skateboarder, it was never an option, so i just carried that mentality to snowboarding i guess. i'd blame the manufacturers for sloppy distro.


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## stan_darsh (Mar 10, 2013)

ThunderChunky said:


> I don't really get how it hurts the companies. They are still getting the sales for the boards to the retailer. The retailer is the one taking the hit. A guy buys the board from the retailer, at which point the board company already has the sale for the board and are done with the sales, then they break it and return it for another board that has already been purchased from the board company. The retailer is selling two board for one price. Doesn't seem like it hurts the companies to me.


he explains in the article who it hurts... local shops, local reps for the companies, shop repair dudes etc


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## ShredLife (Feb 6, 2010)

stan_darsh said:


> *i'd blame the manufacturers for sloppy distro.*


this.

the article is basically bitching about capitalism and economies of scale. snowboards are a commodity and supply has outweighed demand for i dunno, at least 15 years :dunno:...


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## ThunderChunky (Oct 1, 2011)

stan_darsh said:


> he explains in the article who it hurts... local shops, local reps for the companies, shop repair dudes etc


Which doesn't effect snowboard companies at all. Then how is it killing snowboarding?


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## killclimbz (Aug 10, 2007)

It is just that companies like Backcountry and REI are getting the lion's share of the business in large part due to their return policies. Or at least that is what the smaller guys are seeing, the ones who can't afford to run their business in this matter.

Is the problem rampant? I don't know. I know if I get the use out of the gear I buy that I expect, I don't take it back to REI for a full refund so I can get the next thing. Some people certainly do and maybe it is a fairly high percentage. 

If people are mostly buying from say these two retailers, then the manufacturer is limited to them to survive. There is only so much shelf space, so getting your product in house, can be difficult.


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## stan_darsh (Mar 10, 2013)

ThunderChunky said:


> Which doesn't effect snowboard companies at all. Then how is it killing snowboarding?


did you even read the article? :blink:


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## ThunderChunky (Oct 1, 2011)

stan_darsh said:


> did you even read the article? :blink:


Solid answer to my question man. Way to be productive.


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## that1guy (Jan 2, 2011)

We buy shit from REI. Their flagship store is just a few blocks from our house. Ironically they are right across the street from SnoCon. REI has a great return policy for a growing child. Although we have never asked for full credit, they usually us a decent credit for the stuff our son has grown out of. For instance, he needed new bindings this year and they gave us 20 dollars credit on his smaller / older burton freestyle's. We bought them there a few years ago but didn't ask to get the full refund. I wouldn't feel right about that. But 20 bones seems fair for 2 year old kiddie bindings. 

That being said, I am sure that there are a lot of people that would take complete advantage of the return policy. I just couldn't do it myself.


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## kaner3sixteen (Feb 15, 2013)

ThunderChunky said:


> Solid answer to my question man. Way to be productive.


basically, small business drops out of the industry because they can't sustain their costs against the big companies. 

Big companies control the demand from the manufacturers, so they then have to meet the demands of the big companies.

niche manufacturing dies, because the big companies want lots of cheap price point boards that they can sell and cover the returns on. they don't want to have to cover a lifetime guarantee on an $800 Lib Tech, when they can cover 4 $200 Lamar boards for the same amount. 

manufacturers start losing money, cause no ones buying the expensive gear. they start pumping all of their resources into fulfilling the cheap, disposable end of the market, with no innovation, no features and poor performance. 

Because the manufacturers have less disposable funds, they can't afford to sponsor the teams, riders or events. the profile of the sport suffers.

snowboarders get pissed off, cause all that's available at the stores is cheap, price point equipment, so they go and do something else. no-ones buying the cheap boards so the big stores aren't making any money, so they stop ordering even the cheap stuff, so the manufacturers fold.

the sport suffers as a result.


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## Donutz (May 12, 2010)

kaner3sixteen said:


> basically, small business drops out of the industry because they can't sustain their costs against the big companies.


While there's nothing wrong with your "cause and effect" predictions, you're ignoring feedback and extrapolating a straight line. There will always be a certain amount of demand for higher-end boards, just to use one ferinstance. As most of the manufacturers get out of that market segment for the reasons you state, the market segment becomes more viable as a niche market. What you end up with is a _very_ differentiated product, with low-end stuff at walmart and high-end stuff available only online, and very little in the middle.


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## bmaniga (Sep 26, 2012)

Very interesting read. I just got a new board from dogfunk for next season not knowing anything about the return policy. Simply because it was cheap and my local shop did not have the item in stock to price match. Even with the new knowledge of no questions asked, it would be a little weird to return it while feeling fully satisfied with my purchase. Not saying that I'm confident two years down the road it wouldn't be tempting, but that the numbers they were using seem crazy high. I'm constantly on the forums and without this article would have never known about it, yet they claim 68% (of the 72% not buying from mom/pop) of people buy for that alone. In fact when bought the board I called to make sure they were burton authorized so that big B would hold on their normal warranty. 

Again i'm new and don't have a solid this is right/wrong stance on the matter. Just that its see the serious threat when I can't trust the figures in the reports:dunno:


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## ekb18c (Mar 11, 2013)

So the author of this article wants to end capitalism? This is capitalism at work, folks. 

Worst Case:
If Walmart decides to start selling snowboards and is demanding price reductions from NS, lib-tech, burton, and other manufactures then that would decrease the profits that the manufactures make. Then if NS can't afford to sell their boards so cheap to Walmart but Burton does, then we will have a situation where bigger companies like burton will live but smaller companies like NS will go out of business.

However, Walmart isn't selling snowboards! The Manufactures are safe because according to their books they still sold the boards to dogfunk.com. Dogfunk isn't going to Libtech and asking for money back. Dogfunk takes the used gear and resells the used boards, gears on a different site. 

I think it's brilliant of dogfunk because they have created a smaller eco-system for buying used snowboarding gear.

Who gets hurt from the unlimited return policy? It's mom and pop snowboard & ski shops in your local areas.


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## kaner3sixteen (Feb 15, 2013)

Donutz said:


> While there's nothing wrong with your "cause and effect" predictions, you're ignoring feedback and extrapolating a straight line. There will always be a certain amount of demand for higher-end boards, just to use one ferinstance. As most of the manufacturers get out of that market segment for the reasons you state, the market segment becomes more viable as a niche market. What you end up with is a _very_ differentiated product, with low-end stuff at walmart and high-end stuff available only online, and very little in the middle.


oh absolutely, i get that, i was drawing the simplistic straight line that the author was implying in a roundabout sort of way. (and i realise the irony of that last sentence )

there'll always be a market for higher end gear, the worry as you say is that that gear becomes very difficult to get hold of, and you lose that middle ground of more affordable, decent spec gear because no-one carries it and there's no profit to be had on it.

it can be misleading to apply broad economic principles to non mainstream industries, because you get kinks in the trends when brand loyalty, regional preferences or requirements, target demographics and knowledge distribution among participants (ie the number of participants overall against how many of those would have a higher sophistication of knowledge and experience) are taken into account.

i think the authors main point is that allowing the smaller more diversified end of the market to be consumed by the big box retailers as an effect of pure capitalism is ultimately to the detriment of the sport as a whole, not just to those directly affected by job losses etc...


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## kaner3sixteen (Feb 15, 2013)

ekb18c said:


> then we will have a situation where bigger companies like burton will live but smaller companies like NS will go out of business.


or smaller names like NS are bought by Burton, or Adidas, or Salomon, and become just another brand slapped onto a mass produced board, designed with more focus on profit than quality, with nothing to diversify them from the parent company's other offerings.



> However, Walmart isn't selling snowboards!


not yet!!!



> I think it's brilliant of dogfunk because they have created a smaller eco-system for buying used snowboarding gear.


this is good while it lasts, but when profit becomes the driver over product quality and innovation, slowly the smaller eco-system becomes choked with the same lower standard gear that the macro eco-system is full of, and dies off.



> Who gets hurt from the unlimited return policy? It's mom and pop snowboard & ski shops in your local areas.


plus their suppliers, their customers, the local community that they are a part of etc. pure capitalism and bottom line thinking don't really give a damn about that, unfortunately.


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## ekb18c (Mar 11, 2013)

I personally don't think snowboarding is a big enough market for walmart. It's still considered a niche market so retailers like walmart will not be interested. 

Eventually, like all other businesses, there will be a few market players in snowboarding. (It's already started) Bigger companies like Burton will buy out smaller companies just to kill them off, like Four Square. 

I think there will still be enough competition even if it's just a few players.


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## Peyto (Mar 21, 2012)

kaner3sixteen said:


> this is good while it lasts, but when profit becomes the driver over product quality and innovation, slowly the smaller eco-system becomes choked with the same lower standard gear that the macro eco-system is full of, and dies off.


Because profit isn't currently the driver of quality and innovation? Manufacturers, whether is an NS/Lib or Ride/K2, don't innovate because it puts a smile on our faces when we ride... 



kaner3sixteen said:


> plus their suppliers, their customers, the local community that they are a part of etc. pure capitalism and bottom line thinking don't really give a damn about that, unfortunately.


Unfortunately it isn't capitalism that doesn't give a damn about small shops, it's people. People have made the choice that they prefer cheaper gear to the warm fuzzy of helping the (for many people) fairly abstract concept of "the snowboarding community."


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## kaner3sixteen (Feb 15, 2013)

saloman said:


> Because profit isn't currently the driver of quality and innovation? Manufacturers, whether is an NS/Lib or Ride/K2, don't innovate because it puts a smile on our faces when we ride...


fair point, of course they are in it for the money, but there is a difference between people with an affinity for the sport making money from it by trying to create something people will want to buy, than a corporate entity creating mass produced unit shifters with the sole purpose of being an entry on a balance sheet.




> Unfortunately it isn't capitalism that doesn't give a damn about small shops, it's people. People have made the choice that they prefer cheaper gear to the warm fuzzy of helping the (for many people) fairly abstract concept of "the snowboarding community."


in many ways you're right. community starts at home, i guess, and it's difficult to justify spending the extra cash when money is tight. that's where the smaller elements of the snowboarding community need to engage consumers and make it more compelling to buy from them, be it through service, support, knowledge, creating that competitive edge that means people will pay that little bit more, because they feel they are getting more in the long run (which is exactly what people feel they are getting with a lifetime returns guarantee, i suppose :dunno


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## KIRKRIDER (Mar 18, 2008)

kaner3sixteen said:


> basically, small business drops out of the industry because they can't sustain their costs against the big companies.
> 
> Big companies control the demand from the manufacturers, so they then have to meet the demands of the big companies.
> 
> ...



You can thank reagan and deregulation for that. No restrain for big corp that ate out every single small business, after destroying its market. Wait 10 years, US will be a giant Walmart where everything looks the same.


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## Donutz (May 12, 2010)

kaner3sixteen said:


> i think the authors main point is that allowing the smaller more diversified end of the market to be consumed by the big box retailers as an effect of pure capitalism is ultimately to the detriment of the sport as a whole, not just to those directly affected by job losses etc...


And he's generally right, but how do you control it? Granted pure unfettered capitalism doesn't work either, but you have to be very very careful when trying to regulate the market so that you don't just make things worse. Or at the very least, create a morass of paperwork just to sell some product.


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## Madbob14 (Feb 28, 2013)

Supposedly REI will revoke your membership if you abuse their return policy. 

Not sure what qualifies as abusing since I rarely return stuff.


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## duh (Sep 7, 2011)

Short and to the point: 

The specialty shop market brought us edge tech, the rebirth of rocker, pow shapes, toe caps, heat moldable liners, spherical lenses and many other great innovations. The big box online market brought us China.


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## Peyto (Mar 21, 2012)

kaner3sixteen said:


> fair point, of course they are in it for the money, but there is a difference between people with an affinity for the sport making money from it by trying to create something people will want to buy, than a corporate entity creating mass produced unit shifters with the sole purpose of being an entry on a balance sheet.


But the incentive for a corporation is still to provide a product consumers want to buy. The smaller companies may be genuinely stoked to see people enjoy their product, but they're in to pay their bills and make some cash. So what I'm saying is that the difference isn't that you're getting a better product but rather that maybe you feel better about who you're supporting. Again, that's an economic choice we make, and in many instances will pay more for the pleasure.





kaner3sixteen said:


> in many ways you're right. community starts at home, i guess, and it's difficult to justify spending the extra cash when money is tight. that's where the smaller elements of the snowboarding community need to engage consumers and make it more compelling to buy from them, be it through service, support, knowledge, creating that competitive edge that means people will pay that little bit more, because they feel they are getting more in the long run (which is exactly what people feel they are getting with a lifetime returns guarantee, i suppose :dunno


I'll make a similar point as above to agree with you. I think certain segments of the snowboarding community are and would be willing to pay more to support a local brand or store if they understand what they're contributing to in the community. But I think we miss the point when we try to argue that just because someone's a bigger corporate manufacturer it automatically makes an inferior product.


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## wrathfuldeity (Oct 5, 2007)

Transworld...the writer is just a hack...his job is to stir up shit...he may be a shop owner but his writing got selected because of the potential to stir shit and thus better for tw. several points:

1 his data is bunk shit...hitting up a smattering of questionable rapers at a resort.

2 rei and bc are big...infact rei is one of the biggest consumer coops and its director recently got some cabinet post. they know what they are doing and they are fairly successful.

3 rei does not always take returns and both re-sell the returns...are they losing money, perhaps in the short term but in the long term...they are gaining a customer that will repeatedly spend and buy way more shit than they return. The folks spending msrp at bc or rei are not your walmart types...walmart types can't afford it in general. Side note....my daughter and I went to walmart...they didn't have what I was looking for...but it was Saturday during the winter...the parking lot was full...we were the only vehicle in the lot with a ski rack and daughter stayed in the car because her bc touring skis were on top.

4 I'd suspect the folks that return lots of shit after a season is college level poor students (at least the ones I know)....I doubt they will do it for the rest of their life...cause once they get a good job and family its not about eating ramen.

5 rei and bc have a very limited amt of high end when compared to their potential customer base and if you want a high end item you almost have to pre-order before they get their inventory...most high end goes to core local shops that do their inventory pre-season order. rei and bc have your advanced stuff for mom and dad geezers....that probably don't return that much stuff. And for core riders riders that want the expert high-end and innovative or proto, they just buy it and ride the shit out of it or get it flowed. And any good core shop will help with the manufacturers' warrenty...thus the local core shop is not out any or very little money.

anyway just my 2 cent rant


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## BigmountainVMD (Oct 9, 2011)

Totally biased when you see that the author is a local shop owner in SLC. Right where backcountry.com is...


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## BurtonAvenger (Aug 14, 2007)

I had a friend that worked at BC who told me about how one customer bought a snowboard marked down for 30% off or something along that lines solely to make it into a splitboard. Upon getting it and setting out to make it a splitboard he got drunk and cut the thing crooked. He then proceeded to return it, no questions asked and get another board to which he cut into a split. His trial and error was rewarded, how is that even remotely fair?

There are four things that I think are the absolute worst thing in the world in the snowboard industry. 

1. Over production. Demand is lower than supply, cut that shit out and drive up demand while lowering the supply. Simple logic here. No one cares that you're claiming you produced x number of boards so stop with the penis waving. 

2. Warranties. People need to realize that if you fuck something up it is your fault not a "manufacturing" defect. For far too long I have been told the JRA or "Just Riding Along" when I can clearly see rocks or wood sticking out of the base from an impact. Companies due to over production have become to lenient and afraid of pissing a customer off for saying you fucked up own it. Harsh lesson but one that needs to be heard. 

3. Bullshit return policies like this create a culture of people that don't know how to take onus for fucking up something or making an un-researched purchase. This goes hand in hand with numbers 1 and 2.

4. Flagrant proform abuse. Stop making it so damn easy to hook everyone up with shit. Blows my mind how many fucktards are getting freebies because they gave a handy to someone on the lift. I understand wanting people to see your product on the hill but when it directly competes with your local/big shops in the area it's just retarded.

Dennis hits a lot of great points in his article and some if not most of you are oblivious to a lot of what is happening in the snowboard industry. Tides are changing and things are getting scary. Now I'm sure someone from the peanut gallery will come up with some half-assed remark about how the only reason I care is because me and my "bros" won't have jobs. To that I say bring it dumbass you'll make yourself look ignorant again. 

The problem with the snowboard industry as a whole is everyone wants to sit around and point fingers but no one does anything about it. Be the change you wish to see in your world or whatever that quote is that Ghandi said. If more people had some balls to say, "shit we're kind of fucking up we should fix this" instead of "fuck them lets blame everyone" it would be a lot better.

Also word on the street was Target was going to sell a line of Shaun White snowboards but Jake put his foot down on that to stop it. Not sure how true that is just rumblings I heard.


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## Argo (Feb 25, 2010)

I agree. The only time I buy from places like bc are for underwear or socks type shit. Bindings are usually local, snowboards are direct from manufacturer, I'm just fortunate to have known the owner for a while now. Boots are typically local too, very rarely online.

I can never bring myself to return or exchange something, even a perceived defect if I get at least 30 days on the product. This is especially true for local shops. I hate hearing about people returning something for a coreshot after 40 days of use..... You use it, you fucked it up, why the hell is it the shops fault? Bullshit.


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## BigmountainVMD (Oct 9, 2011)

I DO think that the warranties shouldn't be so damn easy to take advantage of. If a snowboard is all chopped to shit... that shouldn't be grounds to return it. Same with ridiculous rock damage.


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## Deacon (Mar 2, 2013)

I still can't bring myself to buy shit of any kind online. And the ONLY time I slum it at Walmart is when I need something at 4am and I have no options. I shop and research online and buy in store. Many stores will match online prices anyway.


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## Kevin137 (May 5, 2013)

I live in Norway, but buy all my stuff from a Mom & Pop shop in London, i get absolutely great service, if i have an issue it is addressed, and they now sponsor my 7 yr old step son, even though there is absolutely NO gain for them in doing so, having only been snowboarding for 6 seasons, i wouldn't even consider buying from anywhere else, loyalty brings rewards, including them going out of there way to get stuff you struggle to find anywhere else, special orders, servicing, it all comes down to the relationship you build up by buying "local".

I could of course buy in Norway, everything would then come with a 5 year warranty instead of the UK 1 year warranty, however, the cost is so different it just makes no sense to me, and i do like the service i get in the UK where as in Norway service is not really that good, and stuff is very hard to get... And no one will order in something just for you... So people here now buy online abroad... So we actually have no specialist shops to speak of.

As for the actual content of the article, i feel there is a little bias form the writer, if he owns a store then he has the ability to change how conducts his business. But bitching about it is not really the answer... Most of these companies that now offer these ridiculous warranties started as small shops, and to be fair, most mom and pop shops will do everything they can to bring there price down to match, it is just not always possible... I would still support them though. Without them where will you be with being able to try boots, see flex on boards etc...???

Or would people prefer that you order stuff from the net cos there are no shops left to try on...

Maybe we just think differently in Europe.


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## charles_r_cox (Oct 30, 2012)

I buy from Dogfunk, Backcountry, and REI. I will also buy from local shops when I can. When I lived in Cali I did have my local board shop in Big Bear. I rented from him when I first started; board, bindings, boots, pants, jackets, the whole thing, and the owner would give me a discount (plus he was just an awesome dude). My friends and I would always buy our little things (beanies and gloves) at his' store, and I tried to buy my first setup from him (didn't have big enough bindings), so he send me to another local shop. Owner was just a cool dude, helped riders and his competition. 

Now though I do a lot of buying online. I got into it when I lived in Iraq, it was cheap and mailed to APO address. Since moving to CoSprings I haven't really found a local shop that I like, every now and then I will give some business to a local shop when I go ride, but most of my business is online. I just returned some gear to Dogfunk and the service was amazing. The dude took my info mailed me some postage so I didn't have to pay out of pocket, and sent me two emails regarding the return (standard company email and a personal one so I could deal with him directly). The only problem I have with these "No Questions Asked," returns is that you don't have an opportunity to help improve shitty gear.


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