# Do I really NEED 10k?



## Altephor (Feb 4, 2010)

There's a lot of nice jackets out there with 10k waterproof, 10k thermal, but do I really need that? I mean, right now I'm wearing an old L.L. Bean Jacket I got in high school, I doubt it's that high waterproof but it keeps me dry. I'm mostly doing small trails in the NE anyway, no big powder runs or resorts out west. Could I get by on 5k?


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## HoboMaster (May 16, 2010)

You can get by with a T-shirt if you really want to, but it's gonna suck. Just depends how much your dealing with wet snow and cold-ass temperatures. If both the stated aren't that bad, then 10K is probably not necessary.

Of course if the 10K is the same price as the 5K, go with the 10K for the hell of it.


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## Milo303 (Apr 6, 2009)

Don't buy a T-Shirt... Cotton retains moisture and is a snowboarder enemy. Cotton is literally the enemy.....

You can purchase a proper base layer from many companies. 

I personally have a 5k jacket for everything, and a 5k and 10k pair of pants but the pants rarely get used, but I live in CO so it's not real wet here.

If you're going to be riding somewhere that's pretty wet, I fully recommend a higher mm rating, or you will be miserable in time.

I have a Dakine midweight base layer top, and some DC baselayers for my legs. I throw on a pair of synthetic workout pants on over the leg layering if it's going to be super cold, and I have a fleece for a thick layer for my upper body if needed. I also have a synthetic workout shirt that I usually put over the base layer and I rarely ever need the fleece.

It really depends on how wet of an area you will be riding in, and having proper layers.

Again, cotton is the enemy... DO NOT WEAR COTTON while snowboarding.

You want moisture wicking and fast drying type of materials


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## Milo303 (Apr 6, 2009)

Oh and don't just go with 10k for the hell of it...

Again it depends on what you will be riding in. I prefer 5k and using layers to keep myself warm. By having 5k and layering, it allows me to wear the same gear all season long. 10k is warmer then 5k and will be wayyy hot early and late season.

You should plan things out better then "oh 10k is the same price, get it for the hell of it"


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## Milo303 (Apr 6, 2009)

See Wolf has completely different advice based upon where he lives but it still boils down to what environment you will be riding in

5k gets me thru anything I ride in CO, and he relies more on goretex simply because his snow is different


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## Milo303 (Apr 6, 2009)

Snowolf said:


> Due to me being cheap I actually don`t rely on Goretex, I go for the $30 solution...


My bad I skimmed and misread that part ( =






Just don't get cotton, op


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## HoboMaster (May 16, 2010)

Riding in a T-shirt hasn't stopped me...... Granted it was probably 45 out:laugh: Check the pic.

I don't know, it gets cold and wet here, but I've never been one of those anal people who has to have Chumbawumba approved fabric throughout the entire set of gear. I have my light and somewhat thin shell jacket, (god only knows what it's made out of) and then I wear anything from a T-shirt to several thin layers under that. :dunno: just depends on how anal you are on your clothes' efficiency.


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## Milo303 (Apr 6, 2009)

Right, I'm just anal... Along with thousands of other seasoned riders who like to actually stay dry and comfortable during the day

I guess if you're 18 and really don't give a shit whether you get wet and cold or not, go for it


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## Milo303 (Apr 6, 2009)

I'm an avid gearscan.com buyer haha

I got almost all of my outerwear from those sites because I'm that poor ( =


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## shreduction (Mar 11, 2010)

Milo303 said:


> Oh and don't just go with 10k for the hell of it...
> 
> Again it depends on what you will be riding in. I prefer 5k and using layers to keep myself warm. By having 5k and layering, it allows me to wear the same gear all season long. 10k is warmer then 5k and will be wayyy hot early and late season.
> 
> You should plan things out better then "oh 10k is the same price, get it for the hell of it"


layering for the win!!


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## cpt_usa (Sep 30, 2010)

is there a significant disadvantage to having a shell that is too waterproof or breathable?

if both jackets are shells (no insulation) then there should be no difference in the warmth, am i right?

if I were to get a 10k shell, I could use it anytime I could use a 5k, but it would handle the elements better. and 20k better yet.



or am i just missing something?


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## Leo (Nov 24, 2009)

You are going to have a lot of debate over outerwear. Especially on the Insulated vs layering front.

I personally use lightly insulated jackets (60g) with 2 layers at most. It's my happy medium in the layering vs insulated debate.

Yea yea, you can shed layers accordingly blah blah blah. Sorry, but on cold days, I don't want to be snowboarding with 5 layers of clothing. Makes me feel claustrophobic. Besides, I don't use backpacks and I don't want to unless I ever get into off-trail riding so I wouldn't want to carry around those shedded layers. I also don't want to be renting lockers to store the shedded layers. I'm perfectly fine with my 60g of insulation 

Also, cotton isn't entirely horrible despite advice from outerwear gurus. 100% cotton is bad. There are tons of great cotton blends out there that provide decent waterproofing. These cotton blends are usually mixed with polyester. Some have fleece lining which is an excellent waterproofing fabric (that's how sheep keep dry afterall). However, I would only recommend cotton blends for spring like conditions. Not for cold weather riding.

You can't have too much waterproofing in my opinion. 5k is the min. 10k is my norm.


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## cpt_usa (Sep 30, 2010)

im not worried about having too much waterproofing, i guess i'm just wondering why Milo said don't go with 10k for the hell of it. I'm looking at two jackets, one is a 10k shell with a lightweight hoodie as part of it (3in1), and the other is a 2L goretex jacket. I wouldn't really consider the goretex one, but it's actually cheaper than the other one. any thoughts?


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## T.J. (Aug 28, 2007)

i personally only wear10k/10k or higher outwear. if you shop sales, SAC and WM there is no reason not to have affordable waterproof gear.


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## Leo (Nov 24, 2009)

Gore-Tex is the best waterproofing period. However, I usually only see Gore-Tex on super warm jackets. Look at the insulation weight.

As for the other Jacket, removable hoodies are always a cool thing. You got your winter and spring time gear with one purchase. 2 for 1... ain't nuthin wrong wid dat home skillet.


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## cpt_usa (Sep 30, 2010)

theres no insulation . the gore tex jacket im looking at is the ak 2L jussi anorak. its just a shell. but looks like a really sick shell 

if it wasn't for the fact that this jacket is actually cheaper than the 3in1 jacket, i wouldn't consider it. I like the 3in1 idea, but i can always just pick up another hoodie to wear under the ak jacket. or a flannel.


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## HoboMaster (May 16, 2010)

I ride with my dad alott and he ended up getting a thicker and warmer snowboard jacket while I've just got a thin shell, and I notice him getting too hot often, while usually I will get too cold and go grab an extra long-sleeve from the car. The disadvantage on his part is that if it's really warm out, he has to discard the whole jacket, while I don't.

So personally, I think a thin, well waterproofed shell with several or one layers underneath is the way to go.


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## killclimbz (Aug 10, 2007)

Layers are definitely the way to go for most people. Insulated jackets are nice when it's really cold. It's more of an in addition to piece.


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## NWBoarder (Jan 10, 2010)

I rock a 25k 3 in 1. It's made by Columbia and it's awesome! It can be a warm, insulated jacket, or it can be a shell, and the inner jacket makes a great spring coat. Granted I live in the PNW, but if you can get a quality 3 in 1 I say go for it. You surely will not regret it.


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## Leo (Nov 24, 2009)

HoboMaster said:


> I ride with my dad alott and he ended up getting a thicker and warmer snowboard jacket while I've just got a thin shell, and I notice him getting too hot often, while usually I will get too cold and go grab an extra long-sleeve from the car. The disadvantage on his part is that if it's really warm out, he has to discard the whole jacket, while I don't.
> 
> So personally, I think a thin, well waterproofed shell with several or one layers underneath is the way to go.


The problem I see with these types of arguments against insulation is that people always seem to talk about heavily insulated jackets. Not all insulated jackets are created equal. You got your puffy jackets with 300g insulation and you got your very lightly insulated jackets at 60g (these numbers are general). The 300g is obviously your thick/puffy jacket for extreme cold conditions. The 60g is a mere layers worth of insulation. You can still treat it like a shell jacket with one or two less layers basically. 60g insulation isn't going to be super hot and certainly won't keep you warm in negative conditions. Heck, I get cold wearing only one layer underneath my 60g jacket in 20degree F weather.

Being able to wear one or two less layers is a big benefit to me. And for spring, why would I even want to wear a jacket in the first place? I'm good with a waterproof hoody.

However, if the shell is that affordable, go for it. Just spend the extra dough on layers. But then again... isn't that the same thing as buying the 2 in 1? Unless the shell looks that much better. Whatever, it's pure preference.


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## Leo (Nov 24, 2009)

killclimbz said:


> Layers are definitely the way to go for most people. Insulated jackets are nice when it's really cold. It's more of an in addition to piece.


See what I mean with my insulated generalization that people make? :laugh:

My 60g insulated jacket is not nice in really cold weather haha.

I say the 3 in 1 jacket is a better buy. That's 3 pieces of snowboard wear in one purchase. How much is it compared to the gore tex shell anyway?


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## JeffreyCH (Nov 21, 2009)

I ride in a variety of conditions since the weather in the mid west changes all the time. To tell the truth I don't own any "real" snowboarding outer wear. For mild conditions I use a Eddie Bauer shell, hoodie, and dry weave sport shirt for the upper, and track pants, with UA wick layer and maybe some sweats for lower. For colder conditions I swap out the light shell for a carhart jacket and throw carhart cover alls over the track pants. I can't remember a time when I was ever cold or uncomfortable, but I'm pretty thick skinned since I've worked out in the cold most of my life. 

I guess what I'm saying is that it a boils down to personal preference, as there is a variety of things that will work. The main place I didn't cheap out was with my beanie, face mask, gloves and socks, as long as my head, feet and hands are warm and dry I'm fine.


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## Qball (Jun 22, 2010)

Layers are the way to go. Anyone that you talk to that knows anything about cold weather activities and survival will tell you to use layers. From a survival standpoint it is crucial because you need to be able to shed layers to prevent from sweating during physical activity. You are at higher risk of hypothermia once you sweat and don't have anymore layers to add. With snowboarding it isn't as crucial because it is more a comfort thing. I've always found it better be able to adjust amount of layers according to conditions rather than just have one layer.


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## Leo (Nov 24, 2009)

Again another extreme generalization with insulation. You all make it sound like the guy is getting a 300g insulated puffy down jacket or something. His 3 in 1 choice is essentially 3 separate layers that can be zipped together.

Also, not all of us do Killclimbz or Man vs Wild type activities. Most of us are just normal snowboarders. I highly doubt a lightly insulated jacket is going to cause the OP to have hypothermia and die.

People avoid insulated jackets like the plague because of these over generalizations. I find lightly insulated jackets to be very beneficial for resort riding. If I can wear one less layer then it is worth it to me. If I want a shell, I can wear my hoody shell.

I don't disagree with layering being the ultimate way to handle survival type scenarios. Layers are also best for activities like hunting. Hell, layers are great for lightly insulated jackets.


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## Qball (Jun 22, 2010)

Yes, I know. Thats why I said it's not as crucial with snowboarding. I was simply stating from a survival standpoint to emphasize the benefits of layering. A 3 in 1 jacket is not actually an insulated jacket, but is a shell that you are able to zip your layers in to. You never know, a normal day at a resort could turn into a survival situation. I remember a skier last year got lost at ski bowl and ended up spending the night on the mountain.


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## cpt_usa (Sep 30, 2010)

Leo said:


> See what I mean with my insulated generalization that people make? :laugh:
> 
> My 60g insulated jacket is not nice in really cold weather haha.
> 
> I say the 3 in 1 jacket is a better buy. That's 3 pieces of snowboard wear in one purchase. How much is it compared to the gore tex shell anyway?


I appreciate all the advice about layering guys, but that's not really my question here. I know that layering is the way to go. that's why I was looking at the 3in1.

the goretex jacket is $200, the 3in1 is $260 i think. to me, it seems i could spend the difference on a $60 layer and have a better combination than the 3in1.

What I am getting at, putting aside the 3in1 vs shell jacket bit is this:
if i could get a 10k jacket for $X, and for the same price get a 20k or goretex or whatever jacket, (especially goretex because of the warranty), why wouldn't I?


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## Milo303 (Apr 6, 2009)

We don't dodge insulated jackets because of some generalization, I dodge them so I can use the same jacket for any type of riding.


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## Milo303 (Apr 6, 2009)

cpt_usa said:


> I appreciate all the advice about layering guys, but that's not really my question here. I know that layering is the way to go. that's why I was looking at the 3in1.
> 
> the goretex jacket is $200, the 3in1 is $260 i think. to me, it seems i could spend the difference on a $60 layer and have a better combination than the 3in1.
> 
> ...


Because you don't necessarily need goretex and goretex can get hot... It still depends on what conditions you're riding in.


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## Qball (Jun 22, 2010)

Personally, I would go with the 20k or Goretex especially because I ride in the PNW where it's wet. For me 10k isn't always enough. It would be for fine for most days but for days where it may be raining or the snow is really wet I prefer 15k or higher.


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## Milo303 (Apr 6, 2009)

Qball said:


> Personally, I would go with the 20k or Goretex especially because I ride in the PNW where it's wet. For me 10k isn't always enough. It would be for fine for most days but for days where it may be raining or the snow is really wet I prefer 15k or higher.


You've got it figured out


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## CustomX - J-rad (Mar 29, 2010)

cpt_usa said:


> I appreciate all the advice about layering guys, but that's not really my question here. I know that layering is the way to go. that's why I was looking at the 3in1.
> 
> the goretex jacket is $200, the 3in1 is $260 i think. to me, it seems i could spend the difference on a $60 layer and have a better combination than the 3in1.
> 
> ...


Go with Gore, that stuff is the shits!!! i love it, i got a pair of gore pants and absolutely love them! i wish my jacket was gore too. Gore tex is the best, its breathable and waterproof, seriously waterproof. I go to the mountain and all i do is have my underwear first layer and gore tex pants (wear the same thing all season, +5 celcius to -30 celcius and it keeps you warm and you dont swet cuz its soo breathable) and then i have a t-shirt hoodie then jacket. By lunch if its semi wet out, my jacket is a bit wet and after sitting inside eating lunch, my gore tex pants dry during my 30 minute lunch and my jacket gets cold, so i'd go with gore, you won't regret it! plus the wind-proof is a bonus, especially on those wind chill days.
layering is the way to go, especially if you got a shell jacket, if its cold out, throw on a longsleeve and a t-shirt, hoodie and jacket and your set. if its hot out, rock just the shell and its great, or go with the hoodie (personally prefer it when its warm out, snow is getting softer) because you can get your goggle tan on and feel fresh with the wind against your neck, lol. 200$ gore tex jacket is a steal, especially if its that jussi anorak i read on this thread somewhere.


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## MrSlacker (Mar 6, 2009)

I started riding with a Burton jacket that has 5K rating and its been pretty decent. Last year I picked up a Goretex jacket for $80 at TJ Maxx and I LOOVE IT. I keeps me warm and dry all the time! As for pants, I always stick with at least 20K so my butt is dry


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## Triple8Sol (Nov 24, 2008)

Didn't read through the thread to see where OP is from, but it depends on where you live and what you ride. I spend all day on the hill, hike for freshies, etc... and we often have wet/heavy snow here in the NW. No cotton anywhere, all synthetics for all my layering. Cotton kills! As for outerwear, I prefer Gore-Tex, and won't buy any pants lower than 20K. I'm a bit less particular with the jacket, where I think 10K has been sufficient for the most part. Also gore-tex inserts or equivalent in my gloves too.


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## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

I have a wide variety of stuff I ride in rated anywhere from as low as 5k to full Gore-Tex XCR gear. Luckily the snow is normally very dry here in CO so I really don't have issues. I really only break out the Gore on the waist deep days. In fact, most of the time I'm wearing 5k stuff. 

Give me a pair of light thermal underwear, an uninsulated 5k shell pant and my Sessions Suburban softshell and I'm good unless it's subzero temps or really windy. I'm a hot natured mofo.


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## Mirage (Jun 16, 2010)

Check and see if you have a Northface outlet near you. I have Gore-Tex jacket and snowpants that I got for $250 total from the outlet in Freeport, ME. I would just do that. Spring skiing in VT (lots of slush) and I was dry all day every time I went. It is definitely worth a drive or at least a call if one is somewhat near you. GL!


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