# Arbor GripTech on east coast ice



## Nivek (Jan 24, 2008)

Last year at the annual Snowbasin demo it rained between day one and two. Then froze. I was helping the Arbor rep out so I had my pick. Rode the Guch Rocker, then camber. Both performed pretty damn well. I was pretty shocked by the rocker. I figured it was gonna be a death sled on literal sheet ice. Sharp edges did the trick and I was good. Grip tech is a natural contact point, not an artificial bump like all the rest. It makes a difference in how it works, and it works well.


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## kriegs13 (Nov 28, 2016)

took a couple of laps on a buddys 159 coda camber at sugarloaf the other day. it wasn't a sheet but lot of spots that were just ice covered by a bit of wet sand. the board stayed on point through all the hairy stuff.


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## Fielding (Feb 15, 2015)

Proprietary edge “grip” technologies are rubbish. They’re just little bumps on the edge. Like a serrated knife. You know what cuts better than a serrated knife? A sharp non-serrated knife. Those techs actually interrupt consistent tip to tail edge contact —provided that is something you can physically do (not trying to throw shade). Wanna turn on ice? Get a board with camber only and an appropriate flex for your weight and riding style. Make the edges sharp. Keep them sharp. Learn to decamber the board and put it on edge or, as the instructor says, “achieve angulation.” You know who really needs to turn on ice? It’s the bros riding boardercross or parallel slalom. You know what proprietary edge techs their boards (Kessler, Donek,Prior, Virus, Oxess, etc.) typically use? None. It’s 25% gear (stiff, camber, sharp, huge effective edge) and 50% skills (body position over the edge, fore to aft movement), and 25% gonads (huevos, balls, nuts, etc.). Instead of buying some snake oil new board with bumps on the edge get a used camber board and pay for a lesson from someone who learned to ride pre year 2000.


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## Nivek (Jan 24, 2008)

Shit, I forgot everyone needs to ride BX decks..........


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## Fielding (Feb 15, 2015)

Nivek said:


> Shit, I forgot everyone needs to ride BX decks..........


 I do not own a BX board. I have ridden one or two and they are interesting . But I find that the side cut radius is typically too great. Also too stiff. The board wants to follow the fall line. But I do not. I am looking for more of a carve pleasure tour. And my reason for bringing up that type of board is that if the bumpy edge technology really worked then I expect it would expect that it would be incorporated there.


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## zc1 (Feb 20, 2017)

Fielding said:


> I do not own a BX board. I have ridden one or two and they are interesting . But I find that the side cut radius is typically too great. Also too stiff. The board wants to follow the fall line. But I do not. I am looking for more of a carve pleasure tour. And my reason for bringing up that type of board is that if the bumpy edge technology really worked then I expect it would expect that it would be incorporated there.


It does work. It's just not conducive to going as fast as you do with non-wavy edges. Using your steak knife analogy, both work (serrated and non) but one is a lot faster than the other.


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## Nivek (Jan 24, 2008)

Sidecut "snake oil" exists for versatility. Are your precious hardboot carvers fun to butter? Hell no. Not even a little bit. Good in the trees? Nope. Side hits and switch? Nope and nope. Are stiffer full camber boards surfy and skatey? Nope. So what if I want a board that is skatey, playful and fun to bash around the mountain on, but I don't wanna die on hard pack and ice? Griptech, mag, underbite, deathgrip, equalizer... That's what they do. The reason you don't see sidecut variations on race/carve/bx boards is cause they don't need the extra grip and the minute drag can be the difference between first and last in a race where tenths of a second matter. Guess who doesn't care about a tenth of a second? Someone looking for a mid flex anything. Now, a few of them are snake oil, like Burton's Frostbite for instance. It's a single mm of protrusion, barely visible, and you can't feel it. It's there so they can say they have an edge tech. But most of them out there at this point perform as advertised, and they increase the versatility of most everything they're on.

Oh and most bread knives are serrated, for a reason.


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## Fielding (Feb 15, 2015)

zc1 said:


> Fielding said:
> 
> 
> > I do not own a BX board. I have ridden one or two and they are interesting . But I find that the side cut radius is typically too great. Also too stiff. The board wants to follow the fall line. But I do not. I am looking for more of a carve pleasure tour. And my reason for bringing up that type of board is that if the bumpy edge technology really worked then I expect it would expect that it would be incorporated there.
> ...


Serrated steak knives tear through meat. The end product is stringy, tattered. Sharp, straight edge knives cut it. Non serrated knives require maintenance. If you do it wrong you can roll the edge to a point that you’re going to need help from a pro. Little edge bumps are a gimmick. I have ridden the Burton version. I have written the magnetotraction. I call bull. It does nothing unless maybe you are skidding to a stop. Maybe then it helps.


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## zc1 (Feb 20, 2017)

I've ridden and owned them all (Burton Frostbite, Lib/Gnu Magne, Jones & Rossi Magne, Arbor Grip Tech, Capita Death Grip) and I agree with a couple of points:
-Frostbite contributes nothing
-At the end of the day the biggest gains will be had from just having nice, sharp edges regardless of the board you're riding (but edge tech does work; it does increase effective edge, edge contact and friction). Agree to disagree there.


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## Fielding (Feb 15, 2015)

zc1 said:


> I've ridden and owned them all (Burton Frostbite, Lib/Gnu Magne, Jones & Rossi Magne, Arbor Grip Tech, Capita Death Grip) and I agree with a couple of points:
> -Frostbite contributes nothing
> -At the end of the day the biggest gains will be had from just having nice, sharp edges regardless of the board you're riding (but edge tech does work; it does increase effective edge, edge contact and friction). Agree to disagree there.


Doesn’t effective edge end at th first little bump thingy? Doesn’t the whatever-traction actually interfere with the actual effective edge?

Riddle me this: if some variety of little edge bumps actually works then why is it (to my knowledge) not at all used on boardercross, slalom, or racing boards? Why is it only used on off the rack boards that are marketed to the average snowboard consumer?

Here’s the thing. Knowing what actually works is hard. There are so many variables at work when any of us tries to turn a board across the fall line on an icy slope. Sidecut. Stiffness. Edge bevel. Length. Camber profile. Snow conditions. Your own personal body condition and all that entails. Like did you have your morning constitutional. All of these factors make it hard to know if it’s the little bumps, the wax job, the new boot laces, or whatever. 

If it actually works, why does it work? Why should it work?

I don’t believe it works. For many reasons. I call marketing shenanigans.


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## Nivek (Jan 24, 2008)

^^^^I literally already explained all this...¿¿¿¿



Nivek said:


> Sidecut "snake oil" exists for versatility. Are your precious hardboot carvers fun to butter? Hell no. Not even a little bit. Good in the trees? Nope. Side hits and switch? Nope and nope. Are stiffer full camber boards surfy and skatey? Nope. So what if I want a board that is skatey, playful and fun to bash around the mountain on, but I don't wanna die on hard pack and ice? Griptech, mag, underbite, deathgrip, equalizer... That's what they do. The reason you don't see sidecut variations on race/carve/bx boards is cause they don't need the extra grip and the minute drag can be the difference between first and last in a race where tenths of a second matter. Guess who doesn't care about a tenth of a second? Someone looking for a mid flex anything. Now, a few of them are snake oil, like Burton's Frostbite for instance. It's a single mm of protrusion, barely visible, and you can't feel it. It's there so they can say they have an edge tech. But most of them out there at this point perform as advertised, and they increase the versatility of most everything they're on.
> 
> Oh and most bread knives are serrated, for a reason.


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## zc1 (Feb 20, 2017)

Fielding said:


> Doesn’t effective edge end at th first little bump thingy? Doesn’t the whatever-traction actually interfere with the actual effective edge?


I agree with you there, as long as we're talking about a very hard surface that doesn't give at all (like sheer ice (eg. race course)). In that case, then you have a lot of tiny contacts where the 'peaks' of the magnetraction are and a lot of wasted edge in the 'valleys,' with the end result being lost effective edge. As long as the surface has any give to it, though, (like hardpacked snow) then all of the edge will actually be in contact. An equivalent (?) analogy would be putting the board on edge on your desk vs on your bed, with the desk representing ice and the bed representing anything more forgiving than that, like plain old hardpack -- clearly less contact as the surface gets harder (until you introduce the effects of pressure and friction from the leading edge, and their effects on the surface that the trailing edge ends up "seeing"...but for the leading edge it still holds true).

I'm not just being contrary. I actually believe it works, but I also agree with you that there are a ton of other factors involved, and that the absolute greatest effect will come from just having a sharp edge. The rest is marginal gains, as team Sky would put it.

BX and slalom racers wouldn't want the traction tech because on the sheer ice that they're crazy enough to do mach 3 on, they would lose effective edge relative to a non-modified/non-wavy edge, and on any surface with more give than sheer ice they would have increased effective edge and increased friction, resulting in a loss of speed. For racers the better way to increase effective edge is to (a) ride a longer board with no edge tech, or (b) shorten the nose and tail to increase the edge length rather than (c) making the edge wavy.


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## SnowDragon (Apr 23, 2012)

Nivek said:


> ^^^^I literally already explained all this...¿¿¿¿


Seriously.

Selective reading on the part of the commenter it appears.


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## zc1 (Feb 20, 2017)

Nivek said:


> ^^^^I literally already explained all this...¿¿¿¿


I think his point is that you can get the same freedom without edge tech -- bevel the base edge and keep the edges otherwise sharp and you'll still have lots of play, but with a good edge when you need the grip. Rossi, who love magnetraction, use this approach on their Retox, which has no mag.


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## Fielding (Feb 15, 2015)

Nivek said:


> Sidecut "snake oil" exists for versatility.....


I dont cut steak with a serrated bread knife because it’s serrated and I really enjoy my medium rare steak cut, not shredded. It’s the wrong tool for the job. 

I ride trees and pow sometimes and pretty much everywhere (except for park becuse I never ride park) in hardboots sometimes. I’ll ride pretty much anywhere in hardboots sometimes. But not all the time. I’m not trying to advocate for hardboots here and now. It’s a fun thing to do but most people dont wanna do it and will never. I’m just talking about edges on any board you want to really turn. Edges. There are all mountain hardboot specific boards that can carve at insane levels like Prior 4WD. Somehow it manages to be versatile and playful and good on ice without having magic little edge bumps. Some bros even be rippin the jibs and jumps on plates. How can it be? Does Prior not know of the magic bump tech? Is Kessler also ignorant? 

Boardercross riders have to cover all kinds of varied conditions. They want stability and edge hold. They mostly stay pointed down the fall line all the time unless there’s a turn in the track or they have to avoid another rider. If mongotraction worked I think they’d be the first to use it.

Racers -like parallel slalom racers- just like BXers don’t really carve turns. They jam turns. They keep em small. They never turn back uphill. They’re not trying to drop speed on the turn like a recreational hardboot carver is. They make their gates and then they want to move on FAST. There are no style points. So why don’t they put little bumps on their slalom boards? If it worked then it seems like it would be the ideal application.

Someone above said that the little bumps only interfere with effective edge if the conditions are super hard. Like my desk and not like my bed. If conditions are as soft as my bed then how does 1mm of protrusion actually make a difference if I’m riding my sidecut across the hill? How does it help? 

When it comes to engaging edges: shouldn’t the edge be engaged in a linear fashion? As in progressively from tip to tail or (if switchie) tail to tip? If that’s how your using your edges then how do those 3 little 1mm bumps do anything? I might sooner believe that they come into play on a skid where they dig into the snow a little more than the rest of the engaged edge. So are those little bumps skid helpers?

Definitely don’t need it for pow. You don’t even really need metal edges for pow.

Tuning a board with bumpy edges is a pain. You can buy the special edge guide with the springs but it doesn’t work right. You end up taking more metal in different spots. Tuning such a board is a revelation as to its gimmick-ness.

The key to the steep ice turn is learning to stack your weight on the engaged edge. And learning to stay in the cockpit -up in the middle of the bindings and sometimes we’ll forward of that middle. Fight the fear and load that front foot. Angulate the board. If you lean back, which is the normal instinct when confronted with steep hard ice, you’re going to skid out. You won’t hold your edge. Even if you have some bumps on that edge. Technique together with balls is the key to the big ice turn. Plus don’t try to do it on some CRC thing unless you are seriously good. Which I do not consider myself to be. Camber and sharp edges is the right tool for that job. I fight the ice fight often. I’ve won on some occasions so I know what it feels like. I’m not trying to front like I do it right every time or I’m the instructor. I see some people who do it right all the time. They ride ice like it’s nothing. The ones I know don’t believe in magic bumps.


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## zc1 (Feb 20, 2017)

I gave an analogy which I admitted might be questionable (?), but I also specifically said ice vs 'plain old' hardpack as well. You decided to focus your discussion on the extremes and compare ice and fluffy stuff. You've used the serrated knife analogy several times, so you clearly know. You suggested that the protrusions should decrease effective edge, then when it was no longer convenient you suggested that they shouldn't have an effect at all. As I said earlier, agree to disagree.


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## Fielding (Feb 15, 2015)

zc1 said:


> I gave an analogy which I admitted might be questionable (?), but I also specifically said ice vs 'plain old' hardpack as well. You decided to focus your discussion on the extremes and compare ice and fluffy stuff. You've used the serrated knife analogy several times, so you clearly know. You suggested that the protrusions should decrease effective edge, then when it was no longer convenient you suggested that they shouldn't have an effect at all. As I said earlier, agree to disagree.


My post above covered snow as hard as my desk as well as snow as soft as my bed. But i concluded by speaking of ice because steep ice is the test. It is the ultimate technique proving ground. Unforgiving. If you can perfect your edging skills on ice then the rest is a cakewalk. Pus if you're willing to ride ice you're probably going to have the joy of riding alone on the hill.


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## snowman55 (Feb 17, 2012)

They should start making boards with this kind of edge for riding on ice. 
They should call it mega magnetracktion.


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## Nivek (Jan 24, 2008)

Fielding said:


> I dont cut steak with a serrated bread knife because it’s serrated and I really enjoy my medium rare steak cut, not shredded. It’s the wrong tool for the job.


2 totally different materials, you clearly missed my point. Yours was that straight blades cut better. They sure as shit don't on bread. My point was the context and conditions matter.



Fielding said:


> I ride trees and pow sometimes and pretty much everywhere (except for park becuse I never ride park) in hardboots sometimes. I’ll ride pretty much anywhere in hardboots sometimes. But not all the time. I’m not trying to advocate for hardboots here and now. It’s a fun thing to do but most people dont wanna do it and will never. I’m just talking about edges on any board you want to really turn. Edges. There are all mountain hardboot specific boards that can carve at insane levels like Prior 4WD. Somehow it manages to be versatile and playful and good on ice without having magic little edge bumps. Some bros even be rippin the jibs and jumps on plates. How can it be? Does Prior not know of the magic bump tech? Is Kessler also ignorant?


Specifically calling out your right tool for the job comment; is a stiff, long, heavily cambered, long effective edge, skinny and double positive board the right tool for trees? No. Congratulations to the guys in your neck of the woods who are still riding plates. Zippy for them. You can also ride lift service downhill mountain bike trails on a 100mm cross country hardtail. Shits gonna suck though. That's why DH bikes exist. I've never been on a 4WD, but something tells me your definition of versatile, and Priors, are very different from mine. 4WD: Really good at carving, ok at trees, pain in the ass to butter, switch is weird as shit and basically pointless, pow is meh. Arbor Cosa Nostra (random, with a fancy sidecut, oh and full rocker too): Floats great, fun to butter, rides switch no problem, great in trees, respectable enough carver that I'd ride one in a bank slalom. Which one is sacrificing more?



Fielding said:


> Boardercross riders have to cover all kinds of varied conditions. They want stability and edge hold. They mostly stay pointed down the fall line all the time unless there’s a turn in the track or they have to avoid another rider. If mongotraction worked I think they’d be the first to use it.


All kinds of varied conditions? They're on a man made track. So it's hardpack, groomer, chopped groomer, maybe some ice. That's not varied. Their snow isn't changing, they aren't hitting crud in the common sense, no fresh snow... They focus on actually turning as little as possible, and their turns are bermed... and you said they focus on staying with the fall line, if fancy sidecuts are designed to get more endge into the snow so you can push with more weight down into your edge while you turn thus avoiding slarving your turns, whey then would you say someone focused on maintaining fall line would be the first to use it? They are literally the last that would use it.



Fielding said:


> Racers -like parallel slalom racers- just like BXers don’t really carve turns. They jam turns. They keep em small. They never turn back uphill. They’re not trying to drop speed on the turn like a recreational hardboot carver is. They make their gates and then they want to move on FAST. There are no style points. So why don’t they put little bumps on their slalom boards? If it worked then it seems like it would be the ideal application.


Nope. Again, I specifically explained that bumps increase versatility. There is no need for versatility for a race board, it has one job. And when something is that damn stiff with that much effective edge it doesn't need help to keep it's edge engaged.



Fielding said:


> Someone above said that the little bumps only interfere with effective edge if the conditions are super hard. Like my desk and not like my bed. If conditions are as soft as my bed then how does 1mm of protrusion actually make a difference if I’m riding my sidecut across the hill? How does it help?


I also specifically called out Frostbite, which is 1mm, as doing nothing. Most mags, as well as GripTech, Underbite, and Equalizer have a greater than 1mm change off the natural sidecut path.



Fielding said:


> When it comes to engaging edges: shouldn’t the edge be engaged in a linear fashion? As in progressively from tip to tail or (if switchie) tail to tip? If that’s how your using your edges then how do those 3 little 1mm bumps do anything? I might sooner believe that they come into play on a skid where they dig into the snow a little more than the rest of the engaged edge. So are those little bumps skid helpers?


Linear...? Depends on what kind of turn you're trying to make. I like to vary my turns, cause you know, monotony is kinda boring.



Fielding said:


> Definitely don’t need it for pow. You don’t even really need metal edges for pow.


Agreed, and I never said you did.



Fielding said:


> Tuning a board with bumpy edges is a pain. You can buy the special edge guide with the springs but it doesn’t work right. You end up taking more metal in different spots. Tuning such a board is a revelation as to its gimmick-ness.


No it isn't. With a hand filer maybe, but those don't do shit in the first place. Most edgers are wheels that have smaller radii than the bumps. They fit in just fine.



Fielding said:


> The key to the steep ice turn is learning to stack your weight on the engaged edge. And learning to stay in the cockpit -up in the middle of the bindings and sometimes we’ll forward of that middle. Fight the fear and load that front foot. Angulate the board. If you lean back, which is the normal instinct when confronted with steep hard ice, you’re going to skid out. You won’t hold your edge. Even if you have some bumps on that edge. Technique together with balls is the key to the big ice turn. Plus don’t try to do it on some CRC thing unless you are seriously good. Which I do not consider myself to be. Camber and sharp edges is the right tool for that job. I fight the ice fight often. I’ve won on some occasions so I know what it feels like. I’m not trying to front like I do it right every time or I’m the instructor. I see some people who do it right all the time. They ride ice like it’s nothing. The ones I know don’t believe in magic bumps.


If I was strictly looking to carve on bulletproof I wouldn't be on something with bumps either. If I was looking for a shorter, fun playful stick for dorking around, buttering, or even something versatile that I can hit a rail with, send a jump, float in deeps, and not die on ice, there's maybe a 50/50 chance it would have bumps. This is what you can not seem to get through your double positive mind. Go ride ice on a soft rocker deck with a traditional sidecut. Sucks. Do it again on something with some fancy sidecut. Still sucks, but it's a lot more manageable. The fancy sideuct has taken nothing from the board, but given it better attributes on shit snow. VERSATILITY. Further, a huge portion of keeping an edge engaged is a boards torsional stiffness. So if I want something shorter, soft and easy to manipulate it's nice to give the edge some extra help staying engaged, I.E. GripTech, a real contact point right at your foot, where you're putting all the pressure into your board.


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## Fielding (Feb 15, 2015)

So you really don't engage your edges from tip to tail down the length of the side cut? You really think that after a full afternoon or BX or slalom race action that any course is not cut up, soft in places, icy in some spots, and generally crudded out? No wonder mongotraction impresses you. I stand by my assertion that it's marketing jive aimed to dazzle the skiddie kiddies.


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## SnowDragon (Apr 23, 2012)

To the OP...

I have ridden boards with magnetraction (3 different brands) and vario grip (Never Summer).
IMO magnetraction works best, while vario grip works as well.
I have not tried grip tech however.

Can you demo?


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## Nivek (Jan 24, 2008)

Fielding said:


> So you really don't engage your edges from tip to tail down the length of the side cut? You really think that after a full afternoon or BX or slalom race action that any course is not cut up, soft in places, icy in some spots, and generally crudded out? No wonder mongotraction impresses you. I stand by my assertion that it's marketing jive aimed to dazzle the skiddie kiddies.


You're like arguing with a flat earther. Are you a flat earther?


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## kriegs13 (Nov 28, 2016)

Not like I’m calling it a legit scientific experiment but similar sized funslinger vs Park pickle with same boots and bindings on a NE ice day had the gnu giving me an easier time holding an edge. I’m not ripping euro carves but I had a lot easier time with both quick and wide carves on the mag edge. All in my head? Maybe but it sure seemed to make a difference. 


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## Fielding (Feb 15, 2015)

Nivek said:


> Fielding said:
> 
> 
> > So you really don't engage your edges from tip to tail down the length of the side cut? You really think that after a full afternoon or BX or slalom race action that any course is not cut up, soft in places, icy in some spots, and generally crudded out? No wonder mongotraction impresses you. I stand by my assertion that it's marketing jive aimed to dazzle the skiddie kiddies.
> ...


I’m just a regular guy who has devoted himself to pursuing the truth about snowboards and how to ride them.


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## Nivek (Jan 24, 2008)

Fielding said:


> I’m just a regular guy who has devoted himself to pursuing the truth about snowboards and how to ride them.


That sounds like something a flat earther would say


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## robotfood99 (Mar 19, 2016)

Its true a competent rider can get all the traction he needs with appropriate edge tuning but the average rider, as in most recreational riders, will not know how to tune so meticulously or even be inclined to do so. That’s where the edge techs come in. They do boost edge grip, if only doing so by sacrificing other aspects of the ride that are less important or non issues for the said average riders. That’s why they are on boards marketed to mostly the average riders. Just because edge tech is absent from racing rigs does not mean its snake oil. Racing sticks have super long effective edges, which in themselves are the old way of boosting edge grip. You might even say that itself is edge tech, too. 

If you race and feel long sharp straight edges boost you performance, more power to ya. But for this recreational rider that happens to take his recreation more seriously than most and like to ride different boards for different purposes, I will gladly take some with effective edge tech built in. Surviving that sheet of ice and basketball sized iceballs on a 40 degree pitch is more important than micro seconds lost in edge transitions.


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## Scalpelman (Dec 5, 2017)

robotfood99 said:


> If you race and feel long sharp straight edges boost you performance, more power to ya. But for this recreational rider that happens to take his recreation more seriously than most and like to ride different boards for different purposes, I will gladly take some with effective edge tech built in. Surviving that sheet of ice and basketball sized iceballs on a 40 degree pitch is more important than micro seconds lost in edge transitions.



Agreed. I have a nice sharp full camber traditional and magnetraction rcr board. Both grab ice but the mag does it better. At least for me. I’m an “expert amateur”, like most of us. I’m better than 90% of riders I see on the mountain doing what I like to do (deep carves, moguls, trees and general bombing). I’ll never be a pro racer and do not aspire to be that guy. I aspire to push myself to the limits in the limited time I have. Board tech is what helps me. Soft groomers? I’ll take the full camber. Steep ice? Give me serration or give me death. 

BTW I’m bored of this steak knife analogy. There is nothing similar to steak and ice. They are different materials that require different cutting tools. 



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## ItchEtrigR (Jan 1, 2012)

No amount of edge tech is going to help me on ice, realistically I don't expect to rail a pencil thin line thru ice, I honestly don't know how good you gotta be to achieve that and its strange to me that people come to expect that from their equipment, I'm happy enough being able to scarve my board in the direction I wanna head and having it respond.

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## Fielding (Feb 15, 2015)

ItchEtrigR said:


> No amount of edge tech is going to help me on ice, realistically I don't expect to rail a pencil thin line thru ice, I honestly don't know how good you gotta be to achieve that and its strange to me that people come to expect that from their equipment, I'm happy enough being able to scarve my board in the direction I wanna head and having it respond.
> 
> Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk


The following post contains no mention of edge grip tech. It is absolutely possible to rail carved turns on ice. It’s actually a necessity to carve those turns if you’re going to actually control your ride on hard ice. It doesn’t take great physical strength or pro level ability. It only takes a basic understanding of proper technique and some huevos. Body position over the engaged edge is the key to riding ice. If you do it right then you’re gonna hold your line provided you don’t panic. Here’s the thing: soft snow doesn’t mind if you lean away from your board. You can get away with all kinds of funky body positions when the snow is soft and forgiving. People who ride soft stuff get used to leaning their bodies up hill on their turns, essentially using the base of the board to hold the board in the turn when the snow is soft. Naturally the bottom of the board does create a shelf for you to ride on as you cut across the hill in soft snow. When the mountain is all ice that kind of riding doesn’t work. Your board doesn’t sink in to the snow at all. It’s just the metal edge you ride on. Ice does not allow that inch and a half or so of base edge stick into the snow to hold you up as you cross the fall line. Essentially you have to use your edge like the blade of an ice skate. Here’s how you do it. On ice you really have to bend your knees, stay over your board, keep your front foot weighted, and tip the board up high on its edge (in instructor speak: “achieve angulation”) as you traverse the fall line. You’re trying to put all your force into the engaged edge itself, not the base that’s beside that edge. The base is not going to help you. If you expect to use that bit of base that sinks in on the soft stuff the your edge going to lose your edge and youre going to slide out. To traverse the fall line on ice you’re just going to ride the metal edge of the board. Even if you are hauling ass you stay up over the board. You control your speed on ice either by using turn shape (ride the edge through the turn back uphill a bit to bleed off speed before you turn the board back downhill...then repeat) or you have to wait and watch for a soft spot to do a speed check skid. This second way, if used as the sole means of controlling speed on ice is a recipe for disaster. Ice can be ridden and ridden well. But it messes with people’s heads. For one thing it makes you go fast. Super fast. And it’s hurts to fall on it. It sounds awful under your board. Most folks will immediately panic when they detect that they’re on ice. They’ll throw down a speed check skid turn and it invariably doesn’t work like what they’re used to. They don’t scrub the speed like they want to. So they panic. Even very decent riders get spooked. Most people encounter ice and pretty much say eff this, I’m going home. 

If you live in a place that really gets ice then figure out who’s a really good local instructor. You’re probably looking for someone with a significant bushy gray beard. Wait for an ice day. Take a lesson from that instructor on ice. It’ll be great because the mountain will be empty.


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## Scalpelman (Dec 5, 2017)

Anyway, sorry about your hijacked post. I can’t give info on arbor boards. But I have tried lib tech, gnu and Rossi. All grip ice well. 


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## Fielding (Feb 15, 2015)

Scalpelman said:


> Anyway, sorry about your hijacked post. I can’t give info on arbor boards. But I have tried lib tech, gnu and Rossi. All grip ice well.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You really think so? How did they do it?


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## kriegs13 (Nov 28, 2016)

Fielding said:


> You really think so? How did they do it?




Everything you said a couple of posts ago about properly riding ice makes sense. I don’t disagree that if you are on that level and comfortable, side cut tech is probably pointless. But I can personally say that I am one of those decent riders who still panics in some icey situations. On true ice days I can carve a green and that’s about it. Almost entirely due to my skill/balls/technique/experience I imagine. The few runs I took on a board with mag...and a bit of a noodle at that..had me feeling notably more confident when it came to holding an edge. I’m not saying I could all of a sudden rip the whole mountain, but greens felt better and I didn’t find myself basically flailing on the steeper blues. Point being, it seems to work in my brief experience and certainly didn’t slow me down in any way that ruined my day. 


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## Fielding (Feb 15, 2015)

Intersting that it was kind of a noodle board. Sometimes riding a softer board or any unfamiliar board really forces you to think a lot more about what’s happening down there. Maybe you were better able to bend it at low speed and that helped you keep your edge on hardpack. Many many variables at work.


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## kriegs13 (Nov 28, 2016)

This was a park pickle and the other board that day was a funslinger. So not like a stiff board to a noodle. 


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## MrDavey2Shoes (Mar 5, 2018)

.... this went well. I currently ride a super stuff BX palmer Crown with lots of camber. No problem activating it... not sure whats being insinuated.

To the two guys yelling about steak knives, please get on outta here.

To everyone who tried to cut through the chunder and answer my question, thanks!


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## Varza (Jan 6, 2013)

MrDavey2Shoes said:


> .... this went well. I currently ride a super stuff BX palmer Crown with lots of camber. No problem activating it... not sure whats being insinuated.
> 
> To the two guys yelling about steak knives, please get on outta here.
> 
> To everyone who tried to cut through the chunder and answer my question, thanks!


Uhh, I think it's actually just one guy yelling about steak knives 

Thanks for starting this thread, was very informative actually! And sorry it blew up!


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## zc1 (Feb 20, 2017)

MrDavey2Shoes said:


> .... this went well. I currently ride a super stuff BX palmer Crown with lots of camber. No problem activating it... not sure whats being insinuated.
> 
> To the two guys yelling about steak knives, please get on outta here.
> 
> To everyone who tried to cut through the chunder and answer my question, thanks!





Scalpelman said:


> BTW I’m bored of this steak knife analogy. There is nothing similar to steak and ice. They are different materials that require different cutting tools.



Nivek is a better rider than me. I thought the Iguchi Pro Camber was a chore to ride on ice.

As far as derailing the thread is concerned, I don't see that as an issue. Your question was answered within the first two responses. Then discussion about edge tech followed. Anyone not interested in the remainder of the discussion certainly wasn't forced to read beyond the first three posts.

Finally, regarding the steak knives, the reason it's relevant is that Lib-Tech actually uses that analogy in its literature when describing its magne-traction edge tech:










(From http://www.lib-tech.com/snowboarding/technology/)

Sometimes fact is stranger than fiction.


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## robotfood99 (Mar 19, 2016)

zc1 said:


> Finally, regarding the steak knives, the reason it's relevant is that Lib-Tech actually uses that analogy in its literature when describing its magne-traction edge tech:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I think those that are bored of hearing the term is partly BECAUSE Lib has been pushing it for so long.


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## zc1 (Feb 20, 2017)

robotfood99 said:


> I think those that are bored of hearing the term is partly BECAUSE Lib has been pushing it for so long.


That's fair (but it doesn't make it any less relevant to the conversation about edge tech)


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## Scalpelman (Dec 5, 2017)

Ha. I guess the debate will always rage on. To be clear, I wasn’t yelling I was typing firmly. I actually love these debates. It just seemed to stray far from an arbor tech conversation. 

Scalpels cut flesh extremely efficiently and precisely but will fail at hard tissue. Bone saws are serrated. Wood saws are serrated. Stone saws are serrated. Ice saws are serrated. That’s the point of edge tech. Racers don’t use it because it will slow you a bit. I’m not good enough to notice it. But getting back to sharp knives.... racers have fresh edges for ONE run. 

In the end it’s all personal preference. I prefer magnetraction for ice. I admit it’s s bit Ginsu knife, but it works all 


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## Fielding (Feb 15, 2015)

Scalpelman said:


> Ha. I guess the debate will always rage on. To be clear, I wasn’t yelling I was typing firmly. I actually love these debates. It just seemed to stray far from an arbor tech conversation.
> 
> Scalpels cut flesh extremely efficiently and precisely but will fail at hard tissue. Bone saws are serrated. Wood saws are serrated. Stone saws are serrated. Ice saws are serrated. That’s the point of edge tech. Racers don’t use it because it will slow you a bit. I’m not good enough to notice it. But getting back to sharp knives.... racers have fresh edges for ONE run.
> 
> ...


I was thinking about what you just said. It caused me to question my earlier conclusion.

I started thinking about how saws (bone, ice, wood, etc.) work. You’re right. They are all serrated and they cut hard stuff very well. And I was thinking about how bumpy edge grip techs for snowboards by and large borrow the idea of a saw blade, or as the marketing lit above shows, claim to employ the mechanical principles of a serrated knife to achieve cutting action. I like tools and I like kitchen knives. I’ve got a bunch of hand saws and chisels and planers that I do some hack woodwork with. I know how to maintain knives and other sharp-edged things. 

Cutting a crusty load of bread with a sharp, straight edge (non serrated) chefs knife sucks. Doesn’t work. I’d likely put the knife down and just tear the bread if it was the only knife I had handy. A serrated bread knife is the right tool for the job. Just like saws, serrated bread knives cut by having teeth that dig and tear into the cut. 

We use serrated knives, like saws, by pulling or pushing the jagged edge back and forth across one place on the thing we’re cutting. The goal is to remove material. The material we are trying to remove holds the whole piece of whatever it is (bread, wood, etc) together. If we take out a thin slice of that material (by turning it into sawdust or breadcrumbs or whatever) then we achieve the goal: one piece of bread becomes two smaller ones or one board becomes two smaller ones. I wonder if it would be possible to cut a piece off of a loaf of bread by using the non serrated chefs knife in the same manner that one might use a hatchet or a machete? Never mind. I digress.

What is it exactly that we want our metal snowboard edges to do to the ice on the mountain? Is it the same as what we want our saw to do to a 2x4? If it is the same outcome we desire then I believe that a serrated snowboard edge would accomplish it much better than a straight snowboard edge. But I personally am not dragging my snowboard edge back and forth across the same spot on the icy slope in an effort to tear away material. Instead, I’m looking to stick to that icy slope as best I can on exactly one very rapid pass. I’d like for the kerf (look it up if you don’t play with saws) to be as narrow and precise as possible. I don’t need to sink into the ice far. I just need a trustworthy hold in order to change my direction of travel.

I think that what we want a snowboard to do to ice is a lot more like what an ice skate does to ice than what an ice saw does to ice. I have never seen a serrated blade on an ice skate. Yes, figure skates have toe picks. But they aren’t used for sawing purposes. A figure skate has two edges. Each skate has two edges with a recessed middle between them. When on one foot, figure skaters are effectively railing highly angulated carved turns around the ice rink. Why no little bumps on their blades? Figure skating isn’t a speed sport (like downhill racing). So it’s not because they’re worried about drag. They’re seemingly more concerned with being agile and precise. And not falling. Why is it that they apparently haven’t adopted some wavy edge tech that really helps them cut into the ice? Hockey skates? One edge only. No serration.

So while your post caused me to re-examine my original conclusion —and i am being sincere when I say that it did— I am for now at least back to my original conclusion: that mongotraction or any named wavy edge tech is the snowboard marketing equivalent of “Rich Corinthian Leather.” 

Sure. It’s all a matter of personal preference. Buy what you like. If you don’t care how, why, or if it works then that is certainly your right. Buy it and tell people that it works great. Lots of people won’t question it. Based on your recommendation and the marketing material they find out there they’ll probably go buy one because they assume that not having a board with wavy edge tech is why they can’t ride ice.

If anyone else’s cares how, why, or if it works then I’d love to hear your thoughts on the matter. To OP: sorry your thread got turned into something other than a bunch of people repeating marketing language.


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## zc1 (Feb 20, 2017)

Fielding said:


> I think that what we want a snowboard to do to ice is a lot more like what an ice skate does to ice than what an ice saw does to ice.


That's exactly it. On sheer, bulletproof ice, the bumps wouldn't help; they would reduce surface area in contact with the ice. The other big difference, though, is the skate blade doesn't bend to any appreciable degree, while the snowboard edge does...not that it really matters. That type of surface is the exception to the rule, anyway.


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## MrDavey2Shoes (Mar 5, 2018)

Ok, I took your advice. I bought a steak knife. Can't wait to get it on the snow!

...looks a bit small for my boots though. Maybe I need to tie a few knives together for a wider waste?


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## Fielding (Feb 15, 2015)

Good point. Skate blades are rigid I think. They’re also super short compared to the effective edge of a snowboard. Turn mechanics are different.

To ride a board on ice well you need edge control. The board and the edge definitely do bend. That’s how you get different shaped turns. The rider needs to be able to hold his weight over the board edge and keep the board squeezed into the desired shape(s) through the turn. The board needs predictable flex and must have lateral stiffness if it’s going to allow the rider to do this well. Lateral stiffness is required in order for the board to be able to stand on edge. That edge should be consistent, meaning not interrupted with bumps or gaps, and very sharp. At least in my thinking.


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## zc1 (Feb 20, 2017)

MrDavey2Shoes said:


> Ok, I took your advice. I bought a steak knife. Can't wait to get it on the snow!
> 
> ...looks a bit small for my boots though. Maybe I need to tie a few knives together for a wider waste?


Did you go with the SPAM, then?


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## Fielding (Feb 15, 2015)

MrDavey2Shoes said:


> Ok, I took your advice. I bought a steak knife. Can't wait to get it on the snow!
> 
> ...looks a bit small for my boots though. Maybe I need to tie a few knives together for a wider waste?


To improve overall performance be sure to put some cool stickers on it. Tell everyone who will listen that it’s the the best edge tech and that will help make it true.


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## MrDavey2Shoes (Mar 5, 2018)

zc1 said:


> MrDavey2Shoes said:
> 
> 
> > Ok, I took your advice. I bought a steak knife. Can't wait to get it on the snow!
> ...



Got cold feet...lol still thinkin about it


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## snowman55 (Feb 17, 2012)

This isn't really scientific but just from the video, boards with Mag and some camber (One mag) looked the most stable out of the bunch.


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## keel_bright (Jan 13, 2013)

I'll jump back to the original question in case anyone is reading here thinking about buying an Arbor decks

This is specifically for the ROCKER System (Wasteland), I have not ridden the Camber system

Yes it holds an edge, but it doesn't do so in a way that gives me confidence (which is the whole point)The rocker between the feet was so loose for me and then the grip tech would bite hard. It's not the same gradual transition to your edge you get with just a straight up camber board. Going from one edge to the other you'd be solid on edge, then it would be loose and squirelly in the time that you're flat and you're just wanting the other edge to bite as quick as possible. Rinse and repeat as you go edge to edge - it was like LOCK-loose-LOCK-loose-LOCK. And it's not fun to be flat based at all on icier days, even on like flatter areas, because the edges can get grabby. 

I don't know, YMMV may vary of course and some people love their Coda/Element Rockers, but personally I was always wishing I was on another board.


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## Jibsaw79 (May 24, 2018)

My research so far on this hot topic with sources:

Scientific study on safety edges on skiers (only in German):
Author: JULIANE JUNG
Institute for sport science, Otto-von-Guericke-University, Magdeburg Germany
https://www.bisp-surf.de/Record/PU201004003944/Details#tabnav

Content:
Field test with 60 people to evaluate diverse ride characteristics
Lab test static edge grip
Lab test dynamic edge grip and glide performance by tribometer

Summary:
The wave edge is at least equivalent in comparison to a conventional ski edge. 
Especially in edge grip the wave profile shows advantages.
The application of the wave edge is recommended especially for use in mass market sport as well as on difficult slope conditions.

field test result:
better edge grip of the wave edge, slighty less maneuverability/turnability

static edge grip lab test result: 
almost the same performance, at 60° edge angle the wave edge had slightly less static edge grip

dynamic edge grip lab test result 
The edge grip of the wave edge was very convincing. *Even after long use on ice the wave edge performed considerably better*


Patent for „safety edge“ for ski and snowboards. Patented by inventor Walter Stucki in 1999. patent was not extended past 2016
https://patents.google.com/patent/EP1140295B1/en
(LibTech published their Magnetraction Patent in about 2004 or 2005)
Now the patent/invention is state of the art.  Yes Underbite, Arbor Grip Tech, Nitro Power Pods, …

Arbor Rocker for me feels very lose straightline but on edge the GripTech bumps at the bindings redistribute pressure to the bindings so it feels more locked in with quicker reactions than a Rocker with Magnetraction like the Skate Banana or the T.Rice.


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