# Malavita EST vs Cartel EST vs Genisis EST



## Snowboard_Otaku

awesome review Nivek.. I'm sure many people here will appreciate the reviews and help them pick a binding


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## Nivek

Sorry about the typos. I know there are probably a lot. I typed it on my phone at work during a dead spell.


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## Supra

good reviews. one thing though, the hinge was just brought in to mimic the natural flex disc bindings provide, I'm not sure there is a noticeable difference between a hinge est binding and a reflex binding.


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## Nivek

I don't know whether or not that's true, but they ride with a little more flex tip to tail than ReFlex. That's always been clear to me. I rode this years ReFlex Missions R's all last year with the 30% short glass frame. I can feel the bit of give in the Hinge on the Mala and Gen compared to the solid frame Reflex.


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## BigmountainVMD

Awesome review man. I've been waiting for a comprehensive review of these three bindings. The 'Vitas used to be more park and now they seem to be the stiffest? The lineup is a bit murky (spec and purpose wise) and I suspect they will make things more clearcut next year.

How did you feel about the durability of the genesis highback?


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## Nivek

Not great. It's two parts are fairly thin, so it will be more prone to snapping if you forget to kick it down. If you've broken a fair share of highbacks I'd be wary. Only time will tell with these. They are comfy and very enjoyable to be in.


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## dreampow

I have the 2011 cartels and they are great for freeride and have enough play for a little freestyle. I do very little park so mostly 3s and tweaked grabs of natural hits, a few presses too.

I am looking to get some new bindings and thinking 13 cartels.

I realize they will be a lot more freestyle in flex but can they can still be stable and responsive enough for some more serious freeride?

Also considering NOWs.

Any thoughts Nivek?


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## dice

very nice review! Thank you.

Where does the Cartel Restricted stack up? Seems to have the "Asym React Strap" like the Malavitas! So I'm guessing it's more comfort!

I got the Cartel Restricted to mount on my Travis Rice mainly for park jumps and playing around tricks, trees and stuff. That and the occasional speed runs when I see open trails (not much of a rails/boxes guy anyway). 

Burton web site lists the Malavitas as more park oriented and the Cartels as an all mountain!!!! But by hand flexing both I got the feeling the Cartels were more flexi vs the Malavitas and not the other way around!

Cheers...


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## Nivek

dreampow said:


> I have the 2011 cartels and they are great for freeride and have enough play for a little freestyle. I do very little park so mostly 3s and tweaked grabs of natural hits, a few presses too.
> 
> I am looking to get some new bindings and thinking 13 cartels.
> 
> I realize they will be a lot more freestyle in flex but can they can still be stable and responsive enough for some more serious freeride?
> 
> Also considering NOWs.
> 
> Any thoughts Nivek?


If I had the chance I'd grab NOW's. They're super rad. The new Cartel will handle freeriding fine. They will stand the most trouble on a stiff full camber deck. If you're freeriding on something hybrid like a Heritage or Flagship or something you wont notice the softer highback all that much. Only when you really get onto the tips. Its a personal preference thing. If you're in deeper snow a lot a little give up top is great. If you're mostly doing sketchy shoots with chopped up out-runs you probably want something stiffer.



dice said:


> very nice review! Thank you.
> 
> Where does the Cartel Restricted stack up? Seems to have the "Asym React Strap" like the Malavitas! So I'm guessing it's more comfort!
> 
> I got the Cartel Restricted to mount on my Travis Rice mainly for park jumps and playing around tricks, trees and stuff. That and the occasional speed runs when I see open trails (not much of a rails/boxes guy anyway).
> 
> Burton web site lists the Malavitas as more park oriented and the Cartels as an all mountain!!!! But by hand flexing both I got the feeling the Cartels were more flexible vs the Malavitas and not the other way around!
> 
> Cheers...


I haven't ridden the Restricted Version of this years Cartel, but I have ridden the Asym Strap at length. For me the react strap was just better. Same comfort, better wrap, and more support. Both are good though. The one nice thing about the asym is you can sorta customize your support. By switching the straps between bindings you can put the high section above or below the ratchet. Above is more support, below is less. Less is more forgiving and better for getting onto your tips, more is better for driving into your tips. Your choice.

Though the site lists the Cartel as stiffer, they aren't. The EST versions are fairly comparable as the hinge gives the Malavita a little more play in the base and the softer highback on the Cartel gives more play up top. But when you move to ReFlex the Malavita gets "stiffer" by losing the hinge, and the Cartel doesn't change. So for Reflex I'd have to say the Malavita will perform stiffer than the Cartel.

On a T.Rice you won't notice too much of a difference. It's a twin and center rocker so you aren't driving REALLY hard into the corners of the top of the highbacks. Cartels are lighter. So boom.


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## dice

Thank you much Nivek for prompt and well detailed reply!!!

You think the hammock adds any noticeable advantages to the Malavitas? Like more comfort (not cranking it tight), chatter/vibration absorption, etc.

I ride 6-8 hrs straight! So anything that adds comfort (without sacrificing performance) is a big plus! 

Cheers...


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## dreampow

Nivek said:


> If I had the chance I'd grab NOW's. They're super rad.
> 
> The new Cartel will handle freeriding fine. If you're in deeper snow a lot a little give up top is great. If you're mostly doing sketchy shoots with chopped up out-runs you probably want something stiffer.


I ride powder 70% of the time.

Have done a few checks and sadly the NOWs are not looking easy for me to pick up here in Large which is what I need. Next year they will be more available as they are proving popular.

The cartels however are everywhere here in Japan. 
The restricted reflex and the regular cartels are pretty easy to get hold of.
I did see some limited cartels as well with the react strap.

Seems like the limited are the ones to get?
They will be going on a proto by the way.


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## Leo

Question for you Nivek...

So I got some quality time in with my genesis bindings yesterday. I noticed that every time I did a prolonged tail press (I really lean into it), my toe caps would loosen up. Now, to be fair, this happens to me a lot with Burton toe caps during demos.

Do you ever experience this issue?

I was wondering what was causing it and I pinpointed it to the ratchets. When you lean into the press, it slightly lifts the ratchet off the ladder teeth. Burton is known for their buttery releasing ratchets... Perhaps they are too buttery?

Anyway, just wanted your thoughts. I'm gonna see if I can tweak some settings to resolve this issue.


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## dice

I mounted the 2013 Cartels on my T.Rice and took 'em out today for a spin!!! I'll post a review later.

But a quick take... they are AMAZING!!! And I wouldn't want them any bit stiffer or softer. If the 2013 Malavitas are more stiff then I wouldn't have liked them given how the Cartels responded at every level!

I seemed to be having great control while carving and chasing, as well as higher jumps and ollies! Very comfortable and responsive (trees, pops) and in control of the board at all times. LOVE 'EM!

Cheers...


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## dreampow

@Dice do you have the regular or restricted cartels?

How do you like the ankle strap?


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## dice

dreampow said:


> @Dice do you have the regular or restricted cartels?
> 
> How do you like the ankle strap?


I got the Restricted Black (matte grey)! The coating on the entire bindings feels like rubber so it REALLY grips to my boots! Looks like the Malavitas matte, but that one has a gloss. The Cartels matte is sticky (me likes)!

The Restricted straps are SUPER comfy! They are different from the non-restricted. I had to adjust a little (two holes up) but that took like a minute. The strap wraps around very well & was awesome and pain free on a super cold freezing night.

The Toe Strap I'm still trying to figure out how it should fit! :dizzy: I think I got it by days end where to place it on my boots for max grip. I never had an issue with it either way. Just where it should fit on my boots.

GREAT bindings. I'll post a review on it later on today.

Cheers...


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## dreampow

Yeah those restricted cartels are sweet, had some in my hands a few days ago.

I am torn between them and some limited cartels.

The limited are a little more expensive, but they are lighter (no doubt minimally) and they have the react ankle strap.

Both are black so it really comes down to the ankle strap.

I hear the asym strap is money but the react is even better.

Anyone who has ridden both straps have an opinion.

Am I just drinking Koolaid?

Is the react strap really better?


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## dice

I think my 2013 Cartel restricted do come with the "Asym React Strap" which is what I experienced!  Very comfy. And when you adjust it right it's seamless with your feet; like you don't feel pressure points anywhere!!!!


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## dreampow

Yes you have the asym react strap the limited have the react strap like on the diodes and genesis.

Cartel Limited Snowboard Binding | Burton Snowboards

As I said there is probably very little difference and both look to be great bindings.


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## Nivek

Leo said:


> Question for you Nivek...
> 
> So I got some quality time in with my genesis bindings yesterday. I noticed that every time I did a prolonged tail press (I really lean into it), my toe caps would loosen up. Now, to be fair, this happens to me a lot with Burton toe caps during demos.
> 
> Do you ever experience this issue?
> 
> I was wondering what was causing it and I pinpointed it to the ratchets. When you lean into the press, it slightly lifts the ratchet off the ladder teeth. Burton is known for their buttery releasing ratchets... Perhaps they are too buttery?
> 
> Anyway, just wanted your thoughts. I'm gonna see if I can tweak some settings to resolve this issue.


i never had any issues with the caps on my Missions last year. Riding Bear as my home mountain that year and nose presses as my go to I pressed a lot. Butters too. I haven't had a Burton ratchet loosen or blow on me since I had '05 Cartels. Sounds like a strange fit issue with your boot I'd say.



dreampow said:


> Is the react strap really better?


I think its better. Same support and more comfort.


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## Nivek

dice said:


> Thank you much Nivek for prompt and well detailed reply!!!
> 
> You think the hammock adds any noticeable advantages to the Malavitas? Like more comfort (not cranking it tight), chatter/vibration absorption, etc.
> 
> I ride 6-8 hrs straight! So anything that adds comfort (without sacrificing performance) is a big plus!
> 
> Cheers...


It smooths things out a bit and riding the ankle strap a little looser for more comfort is moot when compared to the asym React strap cause its just that comfortable anyway. The dampening is the same between the two so do you want stiffer or softer?


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## dice

Softer; works better for me!
I got the Cartels restricted black and so far AMAZING! :bowdown:


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## crash77

I apologize. I've read through this thread twice now and I'm still a little confused as to what riding style cartels and malavitas (reflex) are targeting. I know they have different baseplates and highbacks. But which binding would cater better to jibbing, butters, spins, everything park first, and the rest of the mountain second. They seem so damn similar. Come to think about it, there may not be a right answer, just personal preference. But what would be the point of having such similar bindings in the same line-up? 

Help me out guys. I'm feeling kinda clueless on this one and Burton's website didn't explain it any clearer.


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## poutanen

Damn this thread!!! I'm trying to pick bindings for my play board (Burton Custom camber)... I was sold on the Cartels but tend to like stiffer bindings (the C60s on there now are nice, but probably a little overkill :blink.

My buddy got the Restricted Cartels, and they look excellent. Big chunky straps, stiff baseplate. The only thing that wigs me out is the softer highback.

Dice, you said they've performed well as an all-mountain binding? I'm going to be using this board for park jumps (medium to large kickers), off-piste jumps, and occasional groomer bombing in between.

The price on the cartels is pretty appealing too compared to the other two. :dizzy:


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## seriouscat

What you NEED is Malavita Restricted! It gives you wings! :yahoo:


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## poutanen

seriouscat said:


> What you NEED is Malavita Restricted! It gives you wings! :yahoo:


Always! :yahoo: LOL, no seriously! With all the sales on now, and coming up, I'm try hard to decide which binding to slap on that board. Or do I leave the C60s on it?!? I own them already so it's free to keep using them!


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## dreampow

poutanen said:


> Always! :yahoo: LOL, no seriously! With all the sales on now, and coming up, I'm try hard to decide which binding to slap on that board. Or do I leave the C60s on it?!? I own them already so it's free to keep using them!


I have the 2013 restricted cartels, super playful yet responsive enough to drop 45 degree spines with dense trees. I weigh 175 and use the mediums. If you are quite a bit heavier than me they might be too flexy.

Other than that they are a very solid all round binding. The reflex really brings out the pop and the straps are super comfy.


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## poutanen

dreampow said:


> I have the 2013 restricted cartels, super playful yet responsive enough to drop 45 degree spines with dense trees. I weigh 175 and use the mediums. If you are quite a bit heavier than me they might be too flexy.


Cool thanks! I think I was right on 175 this morning, and I'll be getting mediums if/when I buy. Still not sure if I should just leave the C60s on there or not?!? :dunno:


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## Soul06

I'm waiting for next years Genesis bindings. Wanna see how they do


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## trapper

Alright, I've been researching the 2013 Malavita Reflex vs 2013 Cartel Reflex for a few days now and am still confused about which is the better option for my new board. This is not because I haven't done my homework on them but moreso because everyone seems to disagree on the stiffness levels of them. There are even discrepancies between the Burton website and retailers and trusted review sites differ in their opinions it seems.

So I'm a big dude riding a 2013 NS Heritage 166x. Awesome fucking board. I don't have much for park aspiration at all so I want something in a binding that's fairly responsive. But I also want comfort. Right now I'm rocking 2009 Missions and they're alright and all but I'm ready for something else.

I'm mostly only interested in Burtons because I know they'll fit my size 15 boot. I bought some Flow NX2-RS's a couple weeks ago but had to send them back due to sizing issues. Since most other companies list their XL's and L/XL's only up to size 14, I'm reluctant to go that route (trying shit on locally really isn't an option for me, and I'm not going to buy new boots anytime soon either so please don't suggest that). Plus I know I like Burton bindings so this is where I'm at.

I'm shying away from the Genesis and Diodes only because I am concerned about the durability of the highbacks on those. Plus, I'm not sure if I really want something as stiff as the Diodes even though in all likelihood they're a good match for my board.

So, long story short I'm leaning toward the Malavita Reflexes right now based on Nivek's saying that they are actually more responsive than the Cartels. But Leo mentioned to me elsewhere that they are softer than the Cartels. So, which is which on this? 

Sorry to ask a redundant question but I just haven't found the answer I'm looking for. Any input/suggestions is appreciated. Thanks.


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## poutanen

trapper said:


> I'm shying away from the Genesis and Diodes only because I am concerned about the durability of the highbacks on those. Plus, I'm not sure if I really want something as stiff as the Diodes even though in all likelihood they're a good match for my board.


Not to throw a wrench into your thoughts, but I've got Diodes on my freeride board and love them. The only reason I'm not buying a set for my Custom is it's just a cheap play board for me. I found 2013 Restricted Cartels for $188 CDN so that's hard to beat! :yahoo:


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## trapper

Damn you, you fuck with my brain!


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## j1nftw1n

The Malavita is being marketed as a more freestyle park binding on burtons website and is rated on the same level of flex as the cartels which is a 6/10, but personally when I checked out the mala compared to the cartels you could feel a notice difference in flex in between these two bindings with the malavitas being the stiffer binding with a stiffer frame, stiffer highback, stiffer straps. If the cartels are a 6/10 on flex I'd say the malavita is a 7/10 and than the big brother diode coming in at 8/10

I currently ride 2007 cartels, they are great bindings and there is nothing wrong with them cept that I picked up a stiffer board and boot geared for freeriding and think a stiffer binding would compliment my setup. Though the Diode is geared towards freeriding purpose, I was not impressed with the binding. Lean adjustment isnt a simple twist and turn like all other burton bindings, there is no cushioning on the highbacks. Just doesnt seem like it would be a comfortable ride for a period of time.

Soooo I took the dive and ordered the malavitas to fill a niche of a slightly more responsive and stiffer binding than the cartels but something that would be comfortable to ride for a prolonged period of time. Its arriving tomorrow, hope their what I've wished for and more *fingers crossed*


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## trapper

Thanks that helps a lot. It gives me more confidence that the Malavitas are the better choice for me over the Cartels.


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## crash77

If the malavitas are stiffer than the cartels overall by most user accounts, why do you think burton markets them as "100% freestyle focus"? Or does this fall under personal preference as do most, if not all, equipment?


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## trapper

crash77 said:


> If the malavitas are stiffer than the cartels overall by most user accounts, why do you think burton markets them as "100% freestyle focus"? Or does this fall under personal preference as do most, if not all, equipment?


I wonder if that has anything to do with the EST versions, in which case the Malavita EST has the Hinge technology giving it more flex laterally for tricks and what not. It also sounds like from what I've been reading the Cartel has taken a step down in stiffness this year, but because of the confusion about it people are still thinking of it as the stiffer binding of the two.


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## crash77

trapper said:


> I wonder if that has anything to do with the EST versions, in which case the Malavita EST has the Hinge technology giving it more flex laterally for tricks and what not. It also sounds like from what I've been reading the Cartel has taken a step down in stiffness this year, but because of the confusion about it people are still thinking of it as the stiffer binding of the two.



Well, I guess I will give my $.02. Got the malavita reflex for $156, should be here monday! Only bindings I have to compare them to are 2011 union forces tho.


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## trapper

crash77 said:


> Well, I guess I will give my $.02. Got the malavita reflex for $156, should be here monday! Only bindings I have to compare them to are 2011 union forces tho.


Forces are medium stiffness, right? That actually might not be a bad comparison to my 09 Missions.


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## crash77

trapper said:


> Forces are medium stiffness, right? That actually might not be a bad comparison to my 09 Missions.


Yup...mid stiff, all mtn. I was going to get the 2013 missions, they were only $120. Being as this will be my last upgrade for a few years, I figured I'd go with the vitas.


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## Soul06

I just ordered a new Custom X to replace my 2010 version. I was about to order the Malavitas as well but hesitated due to so much reading about them being more freestyle oriented than freeride. But if they are as stiff as you say perhaps I need to jump on a pair while they are selling for cheap


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## poutanen

j1nftw1n said:


> Diode is geared towards freeriding purpose, I was not impressed with the binding. Lean adjustment isnt a simple twist and turn like all other burton bindings, there is no cushioning on the highbacks. Just doesnt seem like it would be a comfortable ride for a period of time.


For forward lean adjustment, this is something I tend to need to do only once on my bindings.

As for comfort, I find them more comfortable than either pair of C60s I've got. I ride long days of technical freeriding, jumps, carving, etc. and the binders don't hurt me at all! :yahoo:


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## seriouscat

The diodes are super comfortable despite appearances, especially if you have big calves. 

The secret to adjusting the forward lean is to make it parallel by adjusting the outside screws first, make it loose enough to click and not so loose it's about to fall off. Then remember that position and adjust both sides equally one click at a time for forward lean. Make sure you periodically tighten those screws.

The annoying things about diodes are ice build up, foam tend to come off, and the lean adjuster marks will rub off leaving only carbon fiber.


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## Nivek

For the big guy on the 66 of these options definitely the Malavita. But realistically I'd be looking elsewhere outside Burton. If you're looking for stiffer bindings that are going to get out to 15's you dont want Burton anyway. They start to get tough at about 13 and the reflex disc provides very little binding centering. You are much better off in something like Targas or Capos.

To the new Custom X, Malavitas or Diodes. Being full camber you'll be driving into your contact points a lot which means you need a torsionally stiffer binding. The Cartel just wont let you push through turns the way the X wants you to.

The Malavita gets marketed as a freestyle binding casue 2 years ago compared to the Cartel that's what it was. It hasnt changed, but the Cartel has. Honestly Burton is missing a binding in there line. You go from a decent all mountain freestyle binding, the Malavita, to an ultra stiff high price freeride binding in the Diode. The Genesis only replaced the Prophecy/C02 in price and they need something to replace it in performance as well. There's a gap. A gap in which they had a great hold on the market in the past.


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## trapper

Nivek said:


> For the big guy on the 66 of these options definitely the Malavita. But realistically I'd be looking elsewhere outside Burton. If you're looking for stiffer bindings that are going to get out to 15's you dont want Burton anyway. They start to get tough at about 13 and the reflex disc provides very little binding centering. You are much better off in something like Targas or Capos.


Funny that you just posted this; I ordered some Capos literally 10 minutes ago after chatting with Leo about this on Saturday and trading PM's with him today. I like Burton, but since the two of you know your shit and have basically suggested the same model(s), I'm going to go with the Rides even despite the bad stuff I've heard about their customer service. Realistically, they do seem to be the best option for me here.

I thought of reaching for the El Hefe's, but figured they'd be overkill for my board and skill level at this point, even despite my size. I'm assuming that I'm going to notice a big enough difference already between the Capos and my old Missions (those guys are getting slapped on my old board to use as a junker).

Thanks for taking the time to reply, it's much appreciated.


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## Soul06

Thanks. I have a few pairs of Malavitas on watch on Ebay. Going to cop a pair


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## herjazz

Interesting comparison and review, especially if you rode them back to back...

I wasn't going to update my old bindings but saw a good deal and so I just bought myself 2013 Malavitas (Reflex non-EST) today ( it's $156 at Dogfunk! malavita from Dogfunk.com ) I returned a pair of 2013 Cartel Limited EST (i.e. Malavita base) and I recently bought 2013 Genesis EST...

Would be good to go out and test them out but alas, winter is almost over... I'll chime in when I get some runs in on these bindings...


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## horia.ancas

*What bindings for the Fish*

Hey guys, I have a Burton Fish link and I am wondering what bindings should I get for it ?

I like a playful ride and I am not into super stiff setups. 
Let me know. Thanks


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## stickz

Got the 2013 genesis for $155 plus tax at evo. Been riding the prophecys all yr so ill try to write up the differences. Going twice this weekend.

SKUItemQtyAmount
EB-56850-1005Burton Genesis Snowboard Bindings 2013 L, Darkness1209.96
cc_Price MatchPrice Match -53.99
Subtotal155.97
Shipping Cost (Will Call - Fremont)0.00
Tax (WA_SEATTLE 9.5%)14.82
Total$170.79


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## Lamps

horia.ancas said:


> Hey guys, I have a Burton Fish link and I am wondering what bindings should I get for it ?
> 
> I like a playful ride and I am not into super stiff setups.
> Let me know. Thanks


I would say Genesis based on your preferences.


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## Nito

Hi Trapper,

I have to second Nivek's opinion. Based upon my understanding the Malavita Reflex is stiffer than the Cartel Reflex. What confuses the question is when comparing the same model in EST; then it becomes Cartel EST is stiffer than Malavita EST. Nevermind comparing the restricted and the limited vs. the base models.

Hope this helps - Nito


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## j1nftw1n

I bought the reflex malavita and am happy with the purchase. Prior to the purchase I went to the ski shop and played around with the mala / cartel / diode to test their flex. High back on the mala is noticeably stiffer than the cartel but not as stiff as the diode. Tho the malavita is being marketed as a freestyle binding and has the same flex rating as the cartel , I think it's the missing link between the uber stiff diode and freestyle cartel. Makes for a perfect match when paired with my '13 Billy goat as a free riding setup.


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## trapper

Nito said:


> Hi Trapper,
> 
> I have to second Nivek's opinion. Based upon my understanding the Malavita Reflex is stiffer than the Cartel Reflex. What confuses the question is when comparing the same model in EST; then it becomes Cartel EST is stiffer than Malavita EST. Nevermind comparing the restricted and the limited vs. the base models.
> 
> Hope this helps - Nito


Appreciate that, but as I mentioned I went ahead and grabbed a pair of Capos. All in all I am happy with this purchase, though I am still on the fence about their long-term durability. We'll see.

But in general I still think it was worth mentioning on your part so as to help others clear up any confusion they might have as well. So thanks again.


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## Someoldguy

Emailed Burton to get an answer, the sizing is the same as it was 3 years ago. The Malavita only has that wrap around ankle highback on the navy/orange colored binding, the other 3 colors of Malavitas don't have the same highback.


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## herjazz

It's quite mind-boggling the amount of variations in their bindings, isn't it? Limited, Restricted, ReFlex, EST @[email protected] It doesn't help that they mix and match parts from different bindings into other bindings...

When checking them out at the store, and you flex the high backs torsionally (i.e. by twisting them from the top with your hands), there is no doubt that the cartel is the most flexible, then the genesis, then the malavita, then the diode. However, when you try to flex the high backs back and forth (toe to heel side), then it's hard to tell with just your hands and not mounted on a board. This is where "real-life" testing comes to play.

I've found that the 2013 Malavita Reflex (non-EST) is the stiffest and most responsive edge to edge, then the 2013 Genesis EST, then the 2013 Cartel Limited EST. (I just ordered some last-year stock 2013 Cartel Reflex today).

I tried these combos with my boards:
2013 Malavita Reflex on 2012 Rome Artifact Rocker (which is a uber-soft rocker-flat-rocker butter/park board)
A decent combo and rideable, but the binding felt like it was a bit too much for the soft board. This season I'm going to pair the board with Cartel Reflex which I think will be a much better match.

2013 Genesis EST on 2013 Burton Custom Flying V (hybrid camber)
The perfect match! Very comfortable binding, good control for carving, yet flexible enough to be comfortable. It's a good all-arounder. Just like my new board, it's great at everything. I've never broken a high back (always put them down when getting on lift), but I do see what people mean about flimsy 2-part back that could break or separate if you're careless...

2013 Malavita Reflex on 2008 Burton Custom X (very stiff camber board)
Much better match than with my noodle stick. Very responsive and stiff, really works well with the stiff camber bomber board. It's also very comfortable. The ankle strap has a lot of cushioning and the back is very cushioned, so I can bomb runs all day long and it's very comfortable. I used to ride both feet in positive angles (like hard boot carvers), but I started experimenting with different angles last season, and I found that these bindings even with negative angle on the back foot is still easy to control (just had to rotate the high-back to be parallel with the board). Not sure if that's my ability to compensate for different stance or the binding, but the binding gives me confidence on this board. Very happy with this combo. I considered the Burton Diode or Ride El Hefe or used Burton CO2s, but they were very pricey.

(2013 Cartel Limited EST on 2013 Custom Flying V (hybrid camber))
I tried this combo for one day, and the bindings were not the right size (which is why I returned/exchanged them) so I can't say much about them. I think the Genesis felt more responsive if not about equal. It did have very comfortable ankle straps too.


Cliff Note Version: 
Stiffness: Malavita Reflex > Genesis EST > Cartel Limited EST > Cartel Reflex


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## Bravado

Great Breakdown! I have been out a couple years due to health issues. I have been riding a TRS with Targas and Fargo's. I have been doing some research and am looking to go light. I recently purchased a Custom Flying V and K2 Maysis boots. I still like the stiff Targas but they are heavy compared to new bindings. I was leaning toward Genesis est but sounds like the Malavitas would be more responsive. Have you tried the Malavitas on your Custom Flying V? Appreciate your Feedback. Thanks


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## ridinbend

So not owning anything burton in years has left me in the dark as to how far they have evolved. I have decided to go with the 162 trick pony, but am still unsure which bindings would maximize the boards potential even after reading through this thread. Niven or someone with experience, can you recommend a binding for me? Thanks. FYI my current pow set up is 163 sick stick with spi, which are stiff. Looking to tone it down a notch. Groomer play set up is attack banana with contact pro. I'd like to slot the burton set up between these two. Cheers.


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## hktrdr

ridinbend said:


> So not owning anything burton in years has left me in the dark as to how far they have evolved. I have decided to go with the 162 trick pony, but am still unsure which bindings would maximize the boards potential even after reading through this thread. Niven or someone with experience, can you recommend a binding for me? Thanks. FYI my current pow set up is 163 sick stick with spi, which are stiff. Looking to tone it down a notch. Groomer play set up is attack banana with contact pro. I'd like to slot the burton set up between these two. Cheers.


Trick Pony is not going to slot in between the AB and the Sick Stick - it is flexier and more playful than either of those.


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## ridinbend

:dizzy:


hktrdr said:


> Trick Pony is not going to slot in between the AB and the Sick Stick - it is flexier and more playful than either of those.


Playful and flexy is exactly what I'm going for. I should have said something different than the two set ups I have now without it being a park board. My head is so foggy, worked four nights and didn't sleep much this week.:dizzy::blink:


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## Supra

hktrdr said:


> Trick Pony is not going to slot in between the AB and the Sick Stick - it is flexier and more playful than either of those.


Just wondering what you're basing your statement on? Did you ride the trick pony, hand flex it, made an educated guess from the specs, hear feedback from pros or others who have ridden it, all of the above or none of the above?


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## ridinbend

Supra said:


> Just wondering what you're basing your statement on? Did you ride the trick pony, hand flex it, made an educated guess from the specs, hear feedback from pros or others who have ridden it, all of the above or none of the above?


Never question Mr. Right.


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## ryguy15

How does the mission reflex compare to the cartel reflex in terms of flex?


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## bseracka

softer hb and base, less comfortable/supportive straps and i think lower quality ratchets too


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## BigmountainVMD

Anyone know where the Union Factorys fit in the mix? I like the flex of the genesis but want the canting of the 'Vitas. I'm hoping the Factory fits right inbetween.


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## hktrdr

bseracka said:


> softer hb and base, less comfortable/supportive straps and i think lower quality ratchets too


Mostly wrong. Mission has the same baseplate and a stiffer highback than the current Cartel (highback is same as on the 2011-12 Cartel).
True on the ratchets (not dual component), but doesn't really matter.

Biggest differences are actually the 'comfort features' - Cartel has a nicer ankle strap, autocant footbed, and cushioning gel in heel area.


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## ryguy15

hktrdr thanks for the info

So would the missions be a good all mountain binding


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## hktrdr

ryguy15 said:


> hktrdr thanks for the info
> 
> So would the missions be a good all mountain binding


Mission is a perfectly good no-nonsense all-mountain binding. Performance-wise totally comparable to the Cartel/Vita/Genesis, but without some of the comfort features.


----------



## CARBONREVIEWS

*cartels are my "preference"*

it is fair to say that these will all depend on your riding style and preference of feel. in all fairness the price difference shouldn't be there, they are all equally high quality bindings with separate perks. alot of pros ride cartel alot of pros ride malavitas it is all style and preference


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## CARBONREVIEWS

hktrdr said:


> Mission is a perfectly good no-nonsense all-mountain binding. Performance-wise totally comparable to the Cartel/Vita/Genesis, but without some of the comfort features.


cartels are much higher end bindings and should be preferred over the missions at any time, but if you only have enough for the missions you may want to look into a different brand with equal prices. but still mission bindings are very high end for the price. but i will always prefer cartels over any other binding alot of pros ride them and they are amazing for everything they can do especially the 2014 models they are just insane


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## theprocess

CARBONREVIEWS said:


> ... but i will always prefer cartels over any other binding alot of pros ride them...


Not sure that should be anyones primary reason for choosing your gear but to each his own. 

I have the 13 Cartels and went out and bought the 13 Missions specifically for the stiffer hiback. As previously stated the higher end tech gets passed down the line as they are upgraded from year to year. Basically built the 12 Cartels using 13 parts.


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## theprocess

hktrdr said:


> Mostly wrong. Mission has the same baseplate and a stiffer highback than the current Cartel (highback is same as on the 2011-12 Cartel).
> True on the ratchets (not dual component), but doesn't really matter.
> 
> Biggest differences are actually the 'comfort features' - Cartel has a nicer ankle strap, autocant footbed, and cushioning gel in heel area.


Baseplate is actually slightly different. Same material and general shape but heel area is different (minor) as the Cartels have more cushioning along the bottom of the baseplate resulting is less contact between the binding and board. Everything else you said is spot imo.


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## blakspark

Long time lurker!

So how about Malvita Reflex vs Cartel Reflex vs Genesis Reflex 2014 models?

Been riding a pair of 2013 Restricted Reflex Cartels which coming from my 09 Customs have been a treat, but I just got a steal on a pair of 2014 Reflex Genesis and after reading this thread and other websites i cannot wait to try these things based on the comfort people have reported.

Only thing is I'm worried I will feel the difference in response coming from the Cartels and I did like the idea of Autocant, although I'm not sure you can really feel it?

Only other option is to frank a Genesis/Cartel combo? Genesis with Cartel hi back and vita Autocant bed or Cartel with Genesis straps?

Also whats the deal with the Gettagrip capstrap vs lightweight Gettagrip capstrap? Apart from been lighter and having more of a foam liner vs rubber?
I presume the lightweight is better as its on the higher end models???

If it makes a difference I'm on a 2013 K2 Happy Hour so hopefully the Genesis will suit the board better and be a bit more playful?


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## IceShredEC

blakspark said:


> Long time lurker!
> 
> So how about Malvita Reflex vs Cartel Reflex vs Genesis Reflex 2014 models?
> 
> Been riding a pair of 2013 Restricted Reflex Cartels which coming from my 09 Customs have been a treat, but I just got a steal on a pair of 2014 Reflex Genesis and after reading this thread and other websites i cannot wait to try these things based on the comfort people have reported.
> 
> Only thing is I'm worried I will feel the difference in response coming from the Cartels and I did like the idea of Autocant, although I'm not sure you can really feel it?
> 
> Only other option is to frank a Genesis/Cartel combo? Genesis with Cartel hi back and vita Autocant bed or Cartel with Genesis straps?
> 
> Also whats the deal with the Gettagrip capstrap vs lightweight Gettagrip capstrap? Apart from been lighter and having more of a foam liner vs rubber?
> I presume the lightweight is better as its on the higher end models???
> 
> If it makes a difference I'm on a 2013 K2 Happy Hour so hopefully the Genesis will suit the board better and be a bit more playful?


i would love some feedback also. i have the 2014 genesis reflex on a arbor blacklist and personally love it. they are really comfortable and the response is great. i ride park and all mountain on the same board although i just bought a 2014 never summer cobra and plan to ride the same same bindings because i heard these bindings are great for all


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## PiKiT

okay so I picked up a new 162 trick pony 2014 and just ordered Malavita est. a

I am upgrading from a bullet and customs.

weigh 240 6'1 and freeride most the time, not a big fan of the park but like to freestyle on mountain.

any thoughts on if the set up will be ok?


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## SoCalBoarder1

Hey guys.

I have a 2013 Burton Aftermath w/ Channel (Camber flex rating: 5).

Currently have custom reflex bindings, they did the job last season. I ride all mtn (park, speed runs, carving, powder days when available).

Want something more high performance then the custom to get the most out of this board...

Any suugestions?


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## Lamps

SoCalBoarder1 said:


> Hey guys.
> 
> I have a 2013 Burton Aftermath w/ Channel (Camber flex rating: 5).
> 
> Currently have custom reflex bindings, they did the job last season. I ride all mtn (park, speed runs, carving, powder days when available).
> 
> Want something more high performance then the custom to get the most out of this board...
> 
> Any suugestions?


For exceptional all around performance and great comfort: Genesis. The two part highback rocks. 

For uber stiff, uber light, uber responsive, uber expensive: Diodes. (Still pretty comfy)

I run both, genesis for powder, diodes otherwise. Personally I think that stiff bindings aren't as important in pow, you can easily press the edges, while stiffness matters for slicing up groomers.


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## Nivek

I think the Vitas get my vote. It'll give you the highback you need on whats effectively a cambered custom twin but not be soo aggressive its not fun on slow or pow days.


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## SoCalBoarder1

Sounds good.. leaning toward the Vitas.


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## SoCalBoarder1

Update: Ended up going with 14 Mission EST, great deal from Sport Chalet preseason sale.


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## F1EA

Hey Nivek...
For a Burton Fish, Genesis vs Malavita? (EST)

I think Gens are perfect, but I already have Genesis ReFlex, so I doubt i'd also get Genesis EST. 

So would it be worth it to go 2016 Malavita EST just for what the EST brings? or might as well just slap the ReFlex Genesis and not care about EST? or get something else like Flux DS, Now Select, Contact Pro?


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## Nivek

Honestly the Genesis belongs on the Fish. And if you have the cash the hinge on EST does make a difference and feels really nice in deep snow.


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## F1EA

Nivek said:


> Honestly the Genesis belongs on the Fish. And if you have the cash the hinge on EST does make a difference and feels really nice in deep snow.


Yeah. Gens definitely belong on the fish. 

I guess i'll wait out and see if i can find a good deal on EST Genesis. The cool thing is that this yr the EST and Reflex are at the same price for all their models. Good move.


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## say chi sin lo

*2014 Burton Cartel sizing*

Just got a simple question, so I'd ask here instead of starting a new thread for it.

I'm size 9.5/10, and I may be getting a decent deal on a set of 2014/2015 Cartels, but they're size large. Will those be too big for me or can I make them work? Thanks!


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## Rotcoddam411

say chi sin lo said:


> Just got a simple question, so I'd ask here instead of starting a new thread for it.
> 
> I'm size 9.5/10, and I may be getting a decent deal on a set of 2014/2015 Cartels, but they're size large. Will those be too big for me or can I make them work? Thanks!


Boot and Binding Size Charts | Burton Snowboards


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## say chi sin lo

Rotcoddam411 said:


> Boot and Binding Size Charts | Burton Snowboards


Well yeah I saw that, I just wanted to see from people's experience on whether these bindings are true to size. Thanks.


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## Rotcoddam411

Alright, its true to size, dont get a large.


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## say chi sin lo

Rotcoddam411 said:


> Alright, its true to size, dont get a large.


:brickwall:


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## say chi sin lo

Just want to thank the people who said my 9.5 Rome Inferno boots would fit a medium Cartel. Because clearly you don't know what you're talking about and they don't fit medium Cartels. Thank, good for nothing!


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## linvillegorge

Unless those are the biggest 9.5 boots on the planet, you've gotta be doing something wrong.


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## F1EA

say chi sin lo said:


> Just got a simple question, so I'd ask here instead of starting a new thread for it.
> 
> I'm size 9.5/10, and I may be getting a decent deal on a set of 2014/2015 Cartels, but they're size large. Will those be too big for me or can I make them work? Thanks!





say chi sin lo said:


> Just want to thank the people who said my 9.5 Rome Inferno boots would fit a medium Cartel. Because clearly you don't know what you're talking about and they don't fit medium Cartels. Thank, good for nothing!


You are an idiot with no common sense.


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## say chi sin lo

F1EA said:


> You are an idiot with no common sense.


I got my solution thanks to a few helpful members, none of which included you however.


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## F1EA

say chi sin lo said:


> I got my solution thanks to a few helpful members, none of which included you however.


I don't help idiots.


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## SoCalSoul

say chi sin lo said:


> Just want to thank the people who said my 9.5 Rome Inferno boots would fit a medium Cartel. Because clearly you don't know what you're talking about and they don't fit medium Cartels. Thank, good for nothing!


And clearly you don't know how to adjust the straps on a basic binding. So before you start throwing a bitch fit complaining about advice that was given to you freely, figure out how to do that first.


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## SoCalSoul

F1EA said:


> I don't help idiots with a false sense of entitlement.


Fixed that for ya.


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## say chi sin lo

Then I don't need to respond to people whose posts provide nothing either. I got my fix (I think). I'm dropping this and going to move on. 

I'm at the very end of my strap adjustments however. Shouldn't be a problem, right?


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## Phedder

I helped so you'd shut up about it. Why would being at the end of the straps be a problem? Is the strap connecting to the rest of the binding? Yes. Does it fit over your boot and ratchet in on the other side, holding your boot in place? Yes.

Seriously try to think for yourself once in a while.


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## say chi sin lo

Phedder said:


> I helped so you'd shut up about it. Why would being at the end of the straps be a problem? Is the strap connecting to the rest of the binding? Yes. Does it fit over your boot and ratchet in on the other side, holding your boot in place? Yes.
> 
> Seriously try to think for yourself once in a while.


Because the end of the strap has less material versus the bulk of the strap. If any failure would occur, it would be at the ends. That's why I'm asking. 

But ok, got my bindings to work. And if you don't want to help, then don't. No one asked you to post. I appreciate your video, it was very helpful. But the rest, I can care less.


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## Kenai

say chi sin lo said:


> Phedder said:
> 
> 
> 
> I helped so you'd shut up about it. Why would being at the end of the straps be a problem? Is the strap connecting to the rest of the binding? Yes. Does it fit over your boot and ratchet in on the other side, holding your boot in place? Yes.
> 
> Seriously try to think for yourself once in a while.
> 
> 
> 
> Because the end of the strap has less material versus the bulk of the strap. If any failure would occur, it would be at the ends. That's why I'm asking.
> 
> But ok, got my bindings to work. And if you don't want to help, then don't. No one asked you to post. I appreciate your video, it was very helpful. But the rest, I can care less.
Click to expand...

It appears you may not care (though I suspect you really do because deep down really we all do) but you are currently coming off on this forum as the whiniest little bitch ever. 

Here is what I have seen:
1) You attack everyone who recommended medium cartels because "thanks for nothing."
2) People pointed out you were wrong. Amazingly many people didn't even immediately point out what a little bitch you were.
3) You have come to realize you were wrong (btw, learn some physics - bulk, material, failure, ends...you're wrong again). 
4) Even while beginning to admit you were wrong and acknowledging that someone was very helpful you manage to be a dick. 
5) You yell at SnowDogWax for not selling you something. Now, I do not know at all who is right or wrong in that situation, but given 1-4 above I don't trust a word you say.

Oh, and 6) you did your whiny bitching in multiple threads, which ultimately just broadcast even more loud and clear that you are a d-bag.


----------



## say chi sin lo

Kenai said:


> It appears you may not care (though I suspect you really do because deep down really we all do) but you are currently coming off on this forum as the whiniest little bitch ever.
> 
> Here is what I have seen:
> 1) You attack everyone who recommended medium cartels because "thanks for nothing."
> 2) People pointed out you were wrong. Amazingly many people didn't even immediately point out what a little bitch you were.
> 3) You have come to realize you were wrong (btw, learn some physics - bulk, material, failure, ends...you're wrong again).
> 4) Even while beginning to admit you were wrong and acknowledging that someone was very helpful you manage to be a dick.
> 5) You yell at SnowDogWax for not selling you something. Now, I do not know at all who is right or wrong in that situation, but given 1-4 above I don't trust a word you say.


1) I did, you can understand the disappointment you buy something used from someone else without the ability to return/refund.
2) Pointing out I was wrong doesn't help. Think that shit will fly in the office? People want solutions.
3) I can't ask about failsafe and durability if I'm the edge of adjustability?
4) Because people continues show just how caring they are, why can't I do the same?
5) My communications between SnowDogWax stays between me and him, I have that much respect. I'm not happy about the incident and SnowDogWax would say he's in the wrong. By the way, way to involve someone else completely unrelated. You yourself said you don't know what happened between me and him, and you're right. So why the hell are you trying to instigate about an incident between me and him? This has to do with you... how?
And yeah I wrote him up, but in a place where appropriate.
6) I expressed my displeasure because I initially asked in multiple threads, have I not addressed them since?

7) Did I ask for your opinion? I already said I'm dropping this and I thanked the ONE person decent enough to provide some insights. What have the rest of you done? Nothing, other than chiming in on a subject that has nothing to do with you in the first place.

I am going to say this again and that I'm dropping this. But if you guys really have nothing better to do, then by all means.


----------



## F1EA

DCSnow returns.


----------



## Kenai

say chi sin lo said:


> 1) I did, you can understand the disappointment you buy something used from someone else without the ability to return/refund.


I can understand the disappointment. My reaction would not be to go on a public forum and be a dick. Here is how I might have posted "Hey guys - everyone recommended medium cartels for my 9.5 boots but they really don't seem to fit. Is there something I am missing? Thanks."

Try it next time and see how it feels. 



say chi sin lo said:


> 2) Pointing out I was wrong doesn't help. Think that shit will fly in the office? People want solutions.


Seriously? If you had this response in my office you would not last long. You did not ask for help. You walked in to a crowded room and told everyone to GF(T)hemselves.

With your entrance you were not seeking and did not deserve solutions. You deserved to be told to get the hell out.


say chi sin lo said:


> 3) I can't ask about failsafe and durability if I'm the edge of adjustability?


You didn't ask anything until you already bitched at everyone. You can't seriously believe you can come with that attitude and then ask a question and all your attitude is overlooked. 



say chi sin lo said:


> 4) Because people continues show just how caring they are, why can't I do the same?


As immature a response as it may seem, you started it. 



say chi sin lo said:


> 5) My communications between SnowDogWax stays between me and him, I have that much respect. I'm not happy about the incident and SnowDogWax would say he's in the wrong. By the way, way to involve someone else completely unrelated. You yourself said you don't know what happened between me and him, and you're right. So why the hell are you trying to instigate about an incident between me and him? This has to do with you... how?


As I said, I don't know the truth. But we all trade in some fashion on our credibility and I was simply explaining that you squandered yours with your attitude. Why would we believe you after that?



say chi sin lo said:


> 6) I expressed my displeasure because I initially asked in multiple threads, have I not addressed them since?


So what? It is a completely dick move to post the same rant in every thread. It is even worse for you when it turns out you were just wrong. 



say chi sin lo said:


> 7) Did I ask for your opinion? I already said I'm dropping this and I thanked the ONE person decent enough to provide some insights. What have the rest of you done? Nothing, other than chiming in on a subject that has nothing to do with you in the first place.


Is this your first time on the Internet? You did not ask for anyone's opinion before you lit up. Why should the rest of us that spend way too much of our non-snowboarding time reading this forum have to put up with you? You deserve to be called out for your behavior.


----------



## say chi sin lo

Kenai said:


> Is this your first time on the Internet? You did not ask for anyone's opinion before you lit up. Why should the rest of us that spend way too much of our non-snowboarding time reading this forum have to put up with you? You deserve to be called out for your behavior.


Oh please, you said you shouldn't be reading this and that, and here you are. 

Here's my question to you, this concerns you HOW? And all of this has to do with the discussion of the bindings HOW? 

I voiced my opinion about its sizing, and confirmed that it'll accommodate a seemingly larger than usual boot. Was I pissed in the beginning? Yeah, did I said I'm dropping and done with it? Yeah. Look who's continuing it, you and the rest of y'all.

You talked of immaturity, who was it trying to instigate what happened between me and another member. Was that a demonstration of maturity? I think not. Are you done? Or are you going to continue on something that has nothing to do with you?


----------



## Kenai

say chi sin lo said:


> Kenai said:
> 
> 
> 
> Is this your first time on the Internet? You did not ask for anyone's opinion before you lit up. Why should the rest of us that spend way too much of our non-snowboarding time reading this forum have to put up with you? You deserve to be called out for your behavior.
> 
> 
> 
> Oh please, you said you shouldn't be reading this and that, and here you are.
> 
> Here's my question to you, this concerns you HOW? And all of this has to do with the discussion of the bindings HOW?
> 
> I voiced my opinion about its sizing, and confirmed that it'll accommodate a seemingly larger than usual boot. Was I pissed in the beginning? Yeah, did I said I'm dropping and done with it? Yeah. Look who's continuing it, you and the rest of y'all.
> 
> You talked of immaturity, who was it trying to instigate what happened between me and another member. Was that a demonstration of maturity? I think not. Are you done? Or are you going to continue on something that has nothing to do with you?
Click to expand...

I'm beginning to think you just don't understand English. Some of the sentences you write are demonstrably false and some of the others have a proper arrangement of words, but make no sense outside of your own private reality. 

To answer your specific questions: 

It concerns me because as a member of this forum I don't want to see it polluted with dicks like you. Also, I think dicks like you should be called out for their dickish behavior. You, sir, are a dick. 

It doesn't have anything to do with the bindings - would you like me to just start a new thread titled "say chi sin lo is a whiny bitch?"

Lastly, I'm done. Post up some more self-centered whine and have the last word.


----------



## say chi sin lo

Kenai said:


> I'm beginning to think you just don't understand English. Some of the sentences you write are demonstrably false and some of the others have a proper arrangement of words, but make no sense outside of your own private reality.
> 
> To answer your specific questions:
> 
> It concerns me because as a member of this forum I don't want to see it polluted with dicks like you. Also, I think dicks like you should be called out for their dickish behavior. You, sir, are a dick.
> 
> It doesn't have anything to do with the bindings - would you like me to just start a new thread titled "say chi sin lo is a whiny bitch?"
> 
> Lastly, I'm done. Post up some more self-centered whine and have the last word.


Would you like me to start a thread titled "kenai ain't got nothing else better to do but the get into other people's business?"

How about a second thread titled: "Got nothing useful to add, but kenai will post even if I'm not being useful"

Another dude talking big behind the computer screen. I'm dropping this if you are.


----------



## bksdds

Someone forgot to take their anal glucose and is a bit grumpy :grin:.


----------



## Phedder

bksdds said:


> Someone forgot to take their anal glucose and is a bit grumpy :grin:.


I don't know if that's actually a thing, but I'm definitely not Googling it to find out! :surprise:


----------



## linvillegorge

Wow. These past few pages are a real shit show.

I'm just sitting here reading like


----------



## mojo maestro

Phedder said:


> Seriously try to think for yourself once in a while.


So much this...........what board should I get.......what color whatever......does this match? I asked my phone but I'm still not sure.......:facepalm3:


----------



## Mystery2many

That has to be the biggest 9.5 ever. My 10 Nike Vapen and Ites fit in a medium with room to spare.


----------



## F1EA

Forget about that guy. It's DCSnow forum troll.


----------



## ekb18c

It's DCsnow or some whiny little ass bitch. Wow...


----------

