# Peroneal muscle fatigue - what am I doing wrong?



## aj327

Hi all. OK here's my problem - the peroneus muscle in my lead leg KILLS me by the end of the day. For those of you who don't know, the peroneus muscle runs from just below the outside of the knee and attaches to the outside of the foot. Google image search peroneus longus or brevis if you want to see a picture. 

Anyway, I can feel myself constantly contracting this muscle when I'm boarding and I think I'm doing it for stability because when I consciously try and relax it I do feel a bit less stable, though I'm not sure why. At first I thought my boots were too big and that maybe I contracted my peroneus to keep my foot more securely in the boot, but downsizing boots didn't help that particular problem at all. So then I tried switching around my bindings. I went from 15 in the front and -12 in the back to 0 and 0. That didn't help either. So then I tried keeping my back leg at 0 and putting the front leg to around 12, which maybe helped a little but not much. Then I tried bringing my bindings a little closer together and I think that may have helped a little bit as well. 

But the problem still persists so now I'm thinking it might just be a technique issue...like I've gotten into a bad habit or something because the strain seems to get a little better if I consciously put more weight on the front of my board, like maybe 60/40. But this also makes me feel a little more out of control. Maybe I just need to practice this? How much weight should I be putting on my front foot? Another thing I'm trying to do is stand in such a way that I feel the board solidly underneath me with both feet if that makes any sense - like straight up and down. But when I do this I feel like I'm about to fall backwards. I know I'm making myself sound like a beginner but I've been boarding for 10 years and I'm actually pretty good. I think I just must have acquired some bad habits somewhere along the way.

A friend suggested that I try to angle both bindings forward at around 25 and 15ish which is what I'll try next unless you guys have some better ideas. Has anyone else had this problem before? It's very annoying. 

Thanks in advance!


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## grafta

As far as checking for bad habits, a video posted up here (people here are awesome about critiquing riding), or a payed lesson on the hill is probably the easiest way to identify and fix what is going on.

In the tips and tricks section there are some really good back to basics videos that I sometimes look at if i'm feeling like a refresher.

Going for a forward stance is a bit extreme. +0/-0 is also not such a good idea. +15/-12 is super normal and unless you have something a little abnormal going on with your legs and feet it shouldn't be a problem... hard to know!


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## earl_je

whats your stance width? I have a feeling its too far apart..


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## aj327

Thanks for the quick response. I was hoping that this was kind of a common problem with a known solution. I'll get some video footage and upload it to see if that helps. In the meantime if anyone else has (or has had) this problem, please chime in.


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## aj327

Yeah my stance width was probably to wide because when I brought it in a bit it did help. Maybe I'll try bringing it in a little more.


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## grafta

Have a look for some general stance guidelines for stance width. See if you are in the ball-park with what you are riding now :thumbsup:


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## LuckyRVA

Have you ever considered a binding with canted footbeds? I don't have any experience with them myself but I've always read that they help with knee pain. Perhaps this could help with the fatigue as well. Maybe someone with some experience can chime in.


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## redlude97

I am currently snowboarding with 1 subluxing peroneal tendon on my lead foot, and a recently repaired peroneal subluxing tendon on a rear foot. I tore the retinaculum in both ankles on different occasions due to shallow grooves. What I've done to deal with the problems are to buy stiff boots, I use 32 focus boas, I tape the ankles to limit eversion, and run canted beds on my ride bindings. I also did a bunch of PT to strengthen the ankles. The peroneal tendons on my lead foot still occasional snap painfully, and they are sore at the end of a hard day, but it isn't too bad to just deal with the pain with some advil. Not sure if that helps but you gotta do what you gotta do. I also run a decently wide stance for my height.


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## cjcameron11

i have consistently been told that the more weight on the front foot the more control you have, in fact i believe especially when turning you shouldn't really use your back leg it should just follow your front foots lead. Have you tried canted footbeds? sounds like your back leg may be being stressed because you are stretching that muscle beyond its comfortable range. Canted footbeds may lessen the stress from that back leg as it changes the angle that your legs are in and would effectively shorten the muscles on the outside of the legs (back in particular). Something to think about, also stretch......ALOT

didn't realise someone already suggested canted....oops


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## aj327

CJCameron11 - actually it's my front leg that bothers me. My back leg feels totally fine. The canted bindings do sound interesting however. Too bad though cause I just ordered some Burton Missions to replace my Flows to see if that would help. My Flows can't be positioned toe side enough so my heel ends up hanging over the edge more than my toe does. Maybe I'm grasping but I'm trying to fix any little flaw that I can see. If I cancel the Missions what are a good pair of canted bindings that you can suggest? 

LuckyRVA you said canted bindings help with knee pain but I don't have knee pain. I just seem to always want to contract my peroneus for stability. And after about half an hour on the slopes I can feel fatigue starting to set in because I don't seem to be able to give it much of a break. It's either a habit I'm going to have to try to break or (hopefully) I can fix the problem by adjusting my gear or stance somehow. 

Redlude97 - interesting that you suggest the 32 Boas because those are the same boots that I have and I love them. They haven't helped with the peroneal issue but the double boa system is so easy to tighten and loosen - it's great. And super comfortable too.

In terms of putting more weight on the lead foot, how much is the prescribed amount? Is 60/40 about right? I don't know if I have a problem leading with my back foot so much since usually I just rock from toe to heel (or vice versa) to initiate the turn.


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## cjcameron11

Alot of different brands now do canted footbeds, Rome targas I like, ride does them as does k2 and I believe button cartels have them, I'm sure others do also, maybe try the Rome 390 boss depends on riding style I guess, and I misunderstood but canted should help with both legs. 

Effectively it lines your ankle up with you leg so it's the same as if you were standing straight up, imagine standing with you legs wide apart, now you can see how that would stretch the muscles and ligaments/tendons as your feet would be flat but you legs would be wide. Now imagine standing at the same stance with wedges under each feet that lined your ankles up in a neutral position equal to you legs, that's why it takes pressure off knees and ankles aswell as outside leg muscles such as the peroneal and ITB (upper outside thigh from hip to outside of knee).

I would def try canted footbed aswell as maybe seeing a podiatrist about getting some custom made full length orghotics, these more than anything help aleave shin, knee and hip pain and you may find your feet have alot to do with your problems.


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## lisevolution

It's funny you mentioned you're using 32 boots and your having this problem. My situation could be completely unrelated to what you're dealing with but a couple of years ago I was dealing with this same problem and it sort of appeared out of nowhere. I tried different angles, widths binding/board position etc. and nothing seemed to help as I'd get this intense pain down the front of my leg near the shin between the knee and the ankle. Finally I thought about what was different from the season before and the only thing that I could pinpoint was my switch from Ride boots to very stiff 32 TM2 boots. I went back to my ride's from the previous season and the pain magically went away. The following season I switched to a Nitro boot and have since moved on to Northwave's and I have not encountered that problem again since. 

I'm not saying it's definitely you're boots but I thought my experience which sounds similar warranted me chiming in on this discussion. Maybe try out a totally different pair somehow and see if that helps before you go crazy and start changing anything else...


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## BigmountainVMD

Based on how you described it, it sounds like canting would really help, especially because reducing your stance width seemed to help a little bit.

Try folding a trail map so it is a quarter inch thick and only an inch or two wide (may involve some cutting), and stick it on the part of your baseplate closest to the nose of your board (parallel with the lateral/outside of your foot). When you strap in, the lateral portion of your front foot should be standing on this trail map and it should lift/angle your foot slightly. This is a ghetto version of canting, but it works and is a good way to see if it will help, before you start throwing money and canting solutions. Just make sure you don't unstrap that front foot and ride for a few hours and you will see if it makes a difference or not.


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## Extremo

It's the boots. Don't waste your time with canting or changing angles. It is def the boots.


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## Extremo

lisevolution said:


> It's funny you mentioned you're using 32 boots and your having this problem. My situation could be completely unrelated to what you're dealing with but a couple of years ago I was dealing with this same problem and it sort of appeared out of nowhere. I tried different angles, widths binding/board position etc. and nothing seemed to help as I'd get this intense pain down the front of my leg near the shin between the knee and the ankle. Finally I thought about what was different from the season before and the only thing that I could pinpoint was my switch from Ride boots to very stiff 32 TM2 boots. I went back to my ride's from the previous season and the pain magically went away. The following season I switched to a Nitro boot and have since moved on to Northwave's and I have not encountered that problem again since.
> 
> I'm not saying it's definitely you're boots but I thought my experience which sounds similar warranted me chiming in on this discussion. Maybe try out a totally different pair somehow and see if that helps before you go crazy and start changing anything else...


See, it's the boots. Same experience here.


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## Sick-Pow

Perfect fitting boots, and not too stiff bindings were my solutions. It took me a shit ton of money to find the right boots....flipping boots sucks.


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## aj327

Wow thanks for all the replies. The bindings thing sounded really promising but it sounds like some of you have had my exact problem and found out that it was the boots, so now I'm not sure what to do. 

Lisevolution you mentioned that it was the muscle next to your shin that was aching - I'm wondering if you mean the tibialis anterior and not the peroneals. I know it seems like splitting hairs but the tibialis anterior would get tired if you felt the need to dorsiflex your foot constantly for stability, but the peroneals get tired if you're constantly everting your foot. This is why I thought the canted bindings might help since it seems to address the issue from a medial/lateral perspective rather than an anterior/posterior perspective. 

The thing is I actually really like my boots. They're super snug but not so tight that they interfere with circulation. My big toe goes right to the end but just barely - so that my toes don't ache at the end of the day. And my heels don't ride up. So I can't imagine having boots that fit me better, though maybe that's not what you're saying...? Maybe it's the stiffness of the boot that's the problem?


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## lisevolution

aj, again I'm not a doctor though looking at the diagrams of the two muscles/tendos we're talking about you may be right about my pain being in the tibalis anterior and not the peroneals which seem to be more in the ankle/foot region. That said those boots not only gave me the pain in my shin region but also in the ankle/top of top/side of my foot region, not all the way to my toes but I'd say stopping just before which I believe is the area you're experiencing your pain. 

The thing that sucks with something like this is you won't know exactly what the problem is until you find what fixes it... it sounds like your boots fit you well, but again they may be too stiff to allow your foot the proper amount flexion they're looking for. IT could also be something as simple as just needing molded footbeds in your boots to solve the problem. Where do you live? I ask because if you live in an area near bigger mountains you will probably have a very experienced boot fitter near you who could definitely help you with your problem...


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## aj327

Were you getting pain in your leg because of boot fit/tightness or because you were contracting that muscle all day? My peroneals aren't hurting because of the way the boot is pressing on them...I know that for sure. The problem is that for some reason I feel the need to contract these muscles at all times to feel stable. And now that I think about it this is the third pair of boots I've had since I first noticed the problem. It's also the third pair of bindings I've had. That's why I thought it might be a technique issue or maybe the way my bindings were set.


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## Anthony

i used to have TONS of leg pain from riding.. it took new boots.. and binding tweaks to get it to go away.. in my case the bindings were actually too close..

my single biggest issue was the boots.. they were too big and causing my heels to lift.. causing me to subconsciously constantly flex my leg muscles.. creating insane amounts of pain..


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## lisevolution

At the time I was dealing with the pain I definitely didn't think it was my boots... I thought it was something I was doing technique wise as well. I actually didn't put 2 and 2 together until the problem went away and I realized the difference was my boots.

It could definitely be something completely different including a technique issue... I'm surprised that Snowolf hasn't chimed in at all as he's usually all over any question about riding technique on this board. You may want to PM him and see what he thinks on this...


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## Sick-Pow

aj327 said:


> Wow thanks for all the replies. The bindings thing sounded really promising but it sounds like some of you have had my exact problem and found out that it was the boots, so now I'm not sure what to do.
> 
> Lisevolution you mentioned that it was the muscle next to your shin that was aching - I'm wondering if you mean the tibialis anterior and not the peroneals. I know it seems like splitting hairs but the tibialis anterior would get tired if you felt the need to dorsiflex your foot constantly for stability, but the peroneals get tired if you're constantly everting your foot. This is why I thought the canted bindings might help since it seems to address the issue from a medial/lateral perspective rather than an anterior/posterior perspective.
> 
> The thing is I actually really like my boots. They're super snug but not so tight that they interfere with circulation. My big toe goes right to the end but just barely - so that my toes don't ache at the end of the day. And my heels don't ride up. So I can't imagine having boots that fit me better, though maybe that's not what you're saying...? Maybe it's the stiffness of the boot that's the problem?


My ultimate solution, plus the right boots, was moving the ankle strap DOWN, lower, on the bindings. Burton's are easy t move, some brands don't have the option, Union you can make the heel cup smaller. I think it allowed my ankle to flex more naturally.

I had the exact same symptoms, lead leg. 

I never tried canting.

If you know your boots are good, don't worry about that variable.

Also, don't work out too much while in season. too much repair while in the cold is not good. I work hard on my ankles in the off season and it has paid off. PLus, I skateboard indoors everyday.


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## aj327

So many variables....in this regard skiing is SOOOO much easier.


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## aj327

What do you mean exactly by moving your ankle straps down?


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## ShredLife

he means to remove the ankle strap and replace it in a lower set of holes down the heelcup - so that the strap hugs more over your instep and less up on top of your ankle.


i kinda doubt that that's gonna do it, but i do think that your bindings and the way they are set is what is causing your problem.

what is your forward lean set at?

have you tried moving your stance closer together some more yet?

from everything you have said it definitely sounds like you need to square yourself over the board and keep more weight on your front leg. you may also be standing too tall.


if you can throw a vid of you riding up it might help.


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## wakalino

Hi Guys,

I know this post is really really old (google throws it up) but as a former sufferer of this problem, i thought i'd share my solution in case anyone else comes across this topic as i know how soul crushing it can be.

I've shown my working a bit here, if you don't want to read the essay, scroll to the last 3 paragraphs. 

[:blahblah:]
I've been snowboarding for knocking on 10 years now and had a stint of about 5-6 years teaching in an indoor slope in the UK. When i started, i had the peronial cramps it sounds like you're describing. I fiddled with my bindings for about a year until i found what i thought was the right stance to make the problem go away.
Then for about 2-3 years, i set this up religiously on every board i had, it even governed what board i bought in case the drill holes lined up differently from those on my current board. 

Then something happened and they just vanished...
I swapped boards with my mate and it had been so long since i'd felt that hainus burning pain on the side of my calf that i'd completely forgotten it was an issue. I set my stance to 15 15 a couple of months later as an experiment and nothing, no pain, no discomfort. I assumed i'd ridden through it, something had got stronger and it wasn't a problem any more.

That's not the end though. About 4-5 years ago, i started teaching my would be gf and she began developing the same problem. Our lesson program was 3 x 1 hour lessons on a small nursery hill, followed by 1 hour on a larger slope (it wasn't that simple in the end, but that's a whole other story). Anyway, the burn didn't begin to set in until much further down the line. We were abroad and the snow wasn't great, quite icy and the piste was pretty rock hard. She would last about an hour or two and then we'd have to call it a day because she was unable to walk due to the pain (fair do's to her, i would have called it waaaay before then). This would be a theme for our next few trips.
We tried different boots, i'm fairly sure we went trough every single stance combo, canted foot beds, packing the soles of he boots up in different places, you name it, i tried it. 

Finally, we hit a solution:- 
A certain pair of boots, medium tight on the bottom, loose on the top.
Sidas Gel pads on the side of her legs where the pain was.
A pair of switchbacks with Canted footbeds.
A very specific stance.

[/:blahblah:]

The unfortunate truth to all of these solutions though, is that none of them work. The real problem is the width of your feet, tight peronial muscles and excessive use in order to stop on your toe edge (if you stand with your feet as they would be on your board, and stand on your tip toes, you'll feel that burn).
As you snowboard more and more, you get comfortable with the actions you perform so you tend to relax a lot more.
In both our cases, we'd learnt the basics, then found how effective it was to use your tip toes to control the speed on the toe edge and this had lead to overuse of the muscle resulting in the cramps. Anything else might help a little bit, your boots might dig in right on the muscle, the canted footbeds shorten the stretch when riding (they're quite hard to come by nowadays though) and obviously your stance has to be comfortable. The main reason is excessive use of the toes for the toe edge.

In both our cases, it came down to feeling comfortable on the board, once we were both confident, we could relax into our boots on our toes and take the pressure off the effected muscle.
It still happens a bit nowadays, when she gets nervous, she tends to rear up on her tip toes on her toe edge (piste to steep/icy, too many people cutting her up etc) I get it just after carving for extended periods of time due to excessive ankle usage to get more edge.
The quick fix is to ride switch for a few turns to give them a rest. In the long term, try some foam rolling and stretches to the muscle and thinking about what you're doing with your toes on your toe side. You should be trying to drive your shins into the front of your boots and letting your ankles bend inside your boots only really straightening them slightly to get a bit of extra edge through the turn. 
If you're mostly using your tip toes to stop or control speed or direction on your tip toes, i strongly suspect this is where the problem lies.

Sorry for the long post, I've spent so long trying to figure this out and the lack of information is maddening. I've watched it happen to me and someone i've taught from the ground up, i'm not a physio or doctor by any means, but i am a nerd for stuff like this and i'm pretty sure this is whats going on.

I hope this helps the OP (if its not sorted already) or anyone else who stumbles across this thread like i have. Feel free to drop me a PM if you need any clarification.


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## Kenai

Oops, I'm in the wrong place. I thought this thread was about overuse of the perineum.


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## sabatoa

Kenai said:


> Oops, I'm in the wrong place. I thought this thread was about overuse of the perineum.


So i had to google that. Worth it.


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## Kenai

sabatoa said:


> So i had to google that. Worth it.


You think that was worth it, wait till you have someone else google it for you!


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## ctoma

Kenai said:


> Oops, I'm in the wrong place. I thought this thread was about overuse of the perineum.


That t'aint a good thing.


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## ekb18c

I'm sure it was the boots!! It's always the boots.


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## wakalino

ekb18c said:


> I'm sure it was the boots!! It's always the boots.


I wouldn't disagree, ill fitting boots can lead to excessive heel lift, causing you to get on your tip toes to engage the toe edge. The tip toes is the root cause.

Also, better fitted boots make you feel more comfortable and so less likely to tip toe stop.


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## BoardieK

Funnily enough I've just had pain in this muscle starting 2 days ago, on my rear leg though. I'm 40 days in to a 60 day trip so well warmed-up, using canted bindings on a regular duck stance at 22" (I'm 5'7"). My boots, Flow Hylites, are 120 days old and getting a bit bendy and packed out; they were probably too big to start with but I get no heel lift.

The day it happened there was a lot of blown powder on the edges of the pistes which were pretty hardpacked down the centre. I spent all day carving tight radius (Rossi Jibsaw 153) turns off the (mostly toe side) side of the piste which meant that I was stood on my rear toes a lot over the course of the day. (I would normally "surf" all over the face of the piste treating it like a big slow shoulder on a wave).

So that pretty much ties in with what wakalino has posted, a bit of boot looseness and stood on the toes, but really I just overdid the repetitions (I'm 58). I can still feel it today but it didn't impact a 3 hour session.


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## jpearl

*Forward foot-leg fatigue on snowboard*

Jan 2019 - 
I would like to try cants in my boots so that my foot can't supinate. I've been on my board a day and a half and my lateral shins are barking, not ok. 

Solitude



LuckyRVA said:


> Have you ever considered a binding with canted footbeds? I don't have any experience with them myself but I've always read that they help with knee pain. Perhaps this could help with the fatigue as well. Maybe someone with some experience can chime in.


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## Puw16

aj327 said:


> Thanks for the quick response. I was hoping that this was kind of a common problem with a known solution. I'll get some video footage and upload it to see if that helps. In the meantime if anyone else has (or has had) this problem, please chime in.


9 years later but I have the same issue and am wondering if you ever figured it out? Like today I tried on sooo many snowboard boots and demoed them all day but the pain was extremely bad on the outer edge of both my feet. They said I’m flat footed and that my feet are just wide? I dont know, super lost in how to solve it.
Thanks!


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