# a question about 'pop' camber vs hybrids



## lonerider (Apr 10, 2009)

Yes... in general, reverse cambered boards have less pop than traditional cambered boards due to their shape. Some of my older cambered boards were like trampolines.

That being said hybrid cambered boards like the ones in Never Summer's lineup also have a different "sweet spot" to get the most pop out of the mini-camber sections when you flex the board (either more towards the tail or closer to the binding depending on the board and your stance).


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## wrathfuldeity (Oct 5, 2007)

Hi, a guy with small feet, generally ride women's boards because they are narrow for fast edge to edge and love pop. Demo'd a bpro and thought it was quite nice but less pop; however I'm sticking with my traditional cambered fs all mtn twin (option 155 kendra starr) because of the pop. Had a old gnu bnice that was cambered with mtx and loved that one for the edge hold and pop but snapped the tail. So perhaps try a softer fs cambered twin or maybe a gnu rider's choice with pickle...basically the same as a bpro but a little stiffer/perhaps more pop.


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## handscreate (Jan 17, 2012)

I don't really go for jumps much, but I have noticed that I can load up the tail a little and get some decent pop out of my Bully Doubledog when I want it. Coming off my very stiff cambered board (which was like a high tension spring), I find the hybrid camber to be a little mellower as far as pop, but it makes up for it (for me at least) by being a way more playful board with some pretty good edge hold when I need it.


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## CheeseForSteeze (May 11, 2011)

mixie said:


> My cambered deck launches me off nearly anything I want with out much effort or even speed. I couldn't ollie or press it very easily (I suck at both anyway) but I didn't need to ollie to get airborn.
> 
> With the Lotus I did not have that 'launched' feeling at all. Aside from the pop issue I absolutely LOVED that board.
> 
> My only issue was I was kinda missed that feeling of being launched. Im assuming that's what is referred to as pop?


Not really sure what it is the board is doing that you aren't happy with. From what you said, you didn't ollie your old board to feel "launched". That's what pop is, the power and speed the board rebounds when you ollie it which gives you amplitude. If you don't ollie the board, then the pop, which the camber will affect, isn't even coming into play.

As for the Lotus, not sure having never ridden one, but I owned the Evo from last season and it was one of the better ollieing boards I've ever ridden. Very strong pop out of the cambered sections. I find any type of camber typically pops as well as others.


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## Nivek (Jan 24, 2008)

Its just the way camber snaps vs rocker. Its a completely different load. That said, you might have better luck with like a Ride Farrah or OMG. Petty sure they both have pop rods which across the industry provide some of the most snap you can find.

But hey if youre riding June... The Signal Vita comes with Wavelength like on the mens Omni for 2013. Every girl I've put on it absolutely loves it. Camber between the feet and rocker outside. Power and play.


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## Cycle4Fun (Feb 22, 2012)

If you want a stiffer board you'll probably have to move away from women's specific boards. They are softer for an on average lighter rider with less strength. You can't forget the dainty feet either. Moving to the men's board you'll get your stiffness back, but it'll be wider slowing down your edge transitions.

I demo'd the NS SL and Raptor. The raptor was too much of a pure free ride charger for the typical east cost hills I ride. The SL was playful yet let me charge down the mountain with confidence. I also got to ride the K2 slayblade, the Rossi One Magtek, and the Salomon Man's Board. The SL was my favorite ride overall.

However, the Lotus is the most beautiful board in the 2012 NS line up. The top sheet is gorgeous.


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## poutanen (Dec 22, 2011)

If you like stiff and cambered, why not demo some more stiff and cambered boards that are bigger. The size may be why you don't like it in powder, because I'm on a fairly large, very stiff, very cambered board and it handles the powder just fine.

I would miss the pop if I went with something else...


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## Casual (Feb 9, 2011)

I would just keep trying different boards, the Ride womans line up is really nice and they have plenty of pop. My girfriend has a Ride Canvas and loves it, and I have a Ride Kink. They make great boards that go anywhere... seriously. I've ridden a lot of boards. 

Check this one out, sounds like what you are looking for:

Compact Snowboard | All Mountain Freestyle, Park & Pipe | Ride Snowboards 2011-2012


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## Irahi (May 19, 2011)

CheeseForSteeze said:


> That's what pop is, the power and speed the board rebounds when you ollie it which gives you amplitude.


There's multiple different kinds of pop. A positive camber shape is compressed from its natural position while it's being ridden, which means that it's always pushing up against you, trying to return to its normal shape. That extra pressure gives you some upward spring, which gives you a bit of pop out of carves, and gives you what feels like significant extra height when you pop upwards with both feet evenly, sort of like just jumping off the ground without a board strapped in. Any center rocker shape will have absolutely zero of this kind of pop.

Ollie/Nollie pop isn't quite the same thing, since it comes from a different section of the board, camber still gives you more of this kind of pop, but rockered boards can still be loaded up on the tail to provide some extra spring.


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## Nivek (Jan 24, 2008)

Irahi said:


> There's multiple different kinds of pop. A positive camber shape is compressed from its natural position while it's being ridden, which means that it's always pushing up against you, trying to return to its normal shape. That extra pressure gives you some upward spring, which gives you a bit of pop out of carves, and gives you what feels like significant extra height when you pop upwards with both feet evenly, sort of like just jumping off the ground without a board strapped in. Any center rocker shape will have absolutely zero of this kind of pop.


False. Anything with center reverse is under the same resistance only in reverse. So the jump straight up pop that is basically useless is from between your feet. Which is also where the snap for turns comes from. Which is why rockers drive between the feet.

Now 3 stage is a whole different story.


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## Irahi (May 19, 2011)

Nivek said:


> So the jump straight up pop that is basically useless is from between your feet.


I have a relatively soft, heavily cambered board (extr txtr), and a very stiff C2BTX board (T.rice HP) that I ride regularly. The pop off of small lips and out of turns on the T.Rice is essentially nothing unless it's loaded from the tail or nose, the return force is negligable on an even pop. On the other hand, the extr txtr has some significant throw during a pop, which helps to initiate spins and force additional height off of small features.

The OP was wondering why their rockered board felt dead on jumps compared to their cambered ride. Whether you perceive that kind of pop to be useless or not, that's why it feels dead.


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## CheeseForSteeze (May 11, 2011)

Irahi said:


> There's multiple different kinds of pop. A positive camber shape is compressed from its natural position while it's being ridden, which means that it's always pushing up against you, trying to return to its normal shape. That extra pressure gives you some upward spring, which gives you a bit of pop out of carves, and gives you what feels like significant extra height when you pop upwards with both feet evenly, sort of like just jumping off the ground without a board strapped in. Any center rocker shape will have absolutely zero of this kind of pop.
> 
> Ollie/Nollie pop isn't quite the same thing, since it comes from a different section of the board, camber still gives you more of this kind of pop, but rockered boards can still be loaded up on the tail to provide some extra spring.


Yes, there are multiple different kinds of pop, but they don't all come into play all the time. Uncambering a traditional camber board coming in and out of carves feels lively but when popping off a jump, the energy from uncambering it is negligible compared to the power generated by the legs.

Furthermore, the OP was riding a hybrid board which has dual camber zones which, if uncambering a board when jumping really created a significant difference in feel, would likewise create a similar sensation, if somewhat muted as compared to traditional camber.

Additionaly, what Nivek said is true. Any camber between the feet (reverse or regular) will add energy when popping with both feet as it unloads. This is just the energy memory forcing the board to return to shape.


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## Irahi (May 19, 2011)

CheeseForSteeze said:


> Furthermore, the OP was riding a hybrid board which has dual camber zones which, if uncambering a board when jumping really created a significant difference in feel, would likewise create a similar sensation, if somewhat muted as compared to traditional camber.
> 
> Additionaly, what Nivek said is true. Any camber between the feet (reverse or regular) will add energy when popping with both feet as it unloads. This is just the energy memory forcing the board to return to shape.


Here's the difference, and I wish I could draw because words aren't the right tool to convey this, but here goes:

Say we have two boards, one center rocker with tip/tail one inch off the ground when laid flat, the other a camber board with the same one inch worth in rise, but in the center. From a standstill on flat terrain, the boards should, in theory, provide the same amount of upwards resistance, but that all changes when the contour of the ground shifts.

In this case, we're talking about a jump. Most, if not all jumps are not a straight plane, they're heavily curved surfaces, it's this case in particular that works against the "pop" on a center rocker board. If you're on a curved surface with the center rocker board, your tip and tail that are raised and normally storing energy are now less engaged because the contour of the ground is flowing with the board, rather than being weighted by the rider on top of the empty space below. So a rocker board loses energy potential on a curved surface because you don't have that inch worth in drop to go to engage the tip/tail.

Conversely, imagine what happens with a cambered board. Because the natural shape of the board is opposite that of the curved ramp, you're putting even more pressure than normal into the camber. Instead of the one inch worth in throw that you have on an even surface, you additionally load the empty space that would have been below the board as stored energy into the camber zone.

Again, whether this is useful or not is up to the rider's preferences. But the physics between a center rocker board and a cambered board as relates to a jump (especially a smaller one) is *definitely* very different.


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## mixie (Mar 29, 2011)

CheeseForSteeze said:


> Not really sure what it is the board is doing that you aren't happy with. From what you said, you didn't ollie your old board to feel "launched". That's what pop is, the power and speed the board rebounds when you ollie it which gives you amplitude. If you don't ollie the board, then the pop, which the camber will affect, isn't even coming into play.




All I am saying is that if I took the same jump at the same speed I would catch a lot more air on the old board versus the lotus. Which was fine, I just started hitting the jumps with more speed 

I am willing to give up that pop for float and dampness. I didn't like the B Pro, I wasn't aware it was a true twin when I rented it. It was suggested to me by the shop. Anyway, I thought it was harder to turn on steeper stuff, and asn't totally sold on the magnetraction stuff. I demoed the B Pro at Mammoth, not June. 


I was back on the cambered board yesterday and today and I missed how damp and stable the lotus is : (


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## CheeseForSteeze (May 11, 2011)

Irahi: I could see that being the case on very burly kickers such as the topmost jumpline in Parklane at Breck. Those jumps give you a good deal of vert and have deep transitions built into them at the lip. However, go over to Keystone A51 and Main Street wedges have a much flatter and longer transition to the final lip angle. Most park jumps I've seen are closer to this geometry. In this case, you're back to approximately a flat plane again so closely that the differences between reverse and regular become negligible.

In my experiences, smaller jumps tend to have even less transition at the lip (where takeoff actually occurs) and would favor camber over reverse even less.

In either case, I think the contribution to jumping is really more of a feel thing than contributing to enhancing your trajectory. Although, jumping is a great deal mental and so that feeling might be important to some, which is probably why many riders are die hard camber.


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## Irahi (May 19, 2011)

Ah, yeah, there's a bit of a disconnect there. On any park jump over say... a 10' table, I don't notice much of a difference between my camber and rocker boards in terms of pop. The forces present on mid-sized and larger jumps are just too much and the curvature is too mellow for there to be much of a difference between the styles, your main force in those jumps just comes from your speed off the lip.

The best examples of radial jumps that really make a difference for camber are naturally occurring. If you take a look at any side hit that people have been riding off of all day, for instance, you'll notice that the whole thing will generally be an even radial curve all the way to the lip. Those are the kinds of jumps you'll see the biggest difference in.


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## Lcdel (Feb 25, 2012)

I demo'd the Lotus, Infinity, and Proto and you should definitely try the Infinity or Proto for jumping. They had way more pop because they're meant to be all-mountain freestyle boards. The Proto especially could be great for you, i've heard it's a fantastic jump board and it certainly had a ton of pop when i rode it. I know you said that you have small feet so you ride girl's boards, but as a girl who usually rides guy's boards, the Proto 152 was only a very little slower switching edge to edge for me, and it was definitely still faster than the board im currently on (Burton Clash 155). If you're at or bigger than a girl's 10-10.5/guy's 8-8.5 i'd check it out.


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## sb60 (Oct 5, 2010)

I'd say try the infinity which has a different flex-- or the guys version, the SL. I got the Roxey envi this year. Similar camber and mtx like the b-pro which i haven't ridden. The envi is a smooth ride like the lotus but it feels lighter and has more flex between the bindings, not as stiff but stiffer than the infinity.


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## mixie (Mar 29, 2011)

hey, thanks for the suggestion. I rented and Envi today and I love it. Even more then the Lotus, which I didn't think I would. 

I am going to buy it for sure!


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## sb60 (Oct 5, 2010)

It's my favorite board now. It has been great in all kinds of conditions this winter. It feels light and I can just lift my front foot in the powder and it's great in the icy steep stuff-- we've had too much of that this winter.


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## mixie (Mar 29, 2011)

yes, I am TOTALALY in love with the board. I rode it today at Mammoth and it was some not so hot conditions. Snow was blowing sideways and white out conditions for most of the day. Normally I'd pack it in on a day like that and hit the bar but the Envi made me want to keep riding. 

I kept going from fluffy wind blown pile of fluff to the next, sadly there was lots of ice too but the envi RAWKED it! I took it back to the shop said I was keeping it!


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## Nivek (Jan 24, 2008)

Irahi said:


> I have a relatively soft, heavily cambered board (extr txtr), and a very stiff C2BTX board (T.rice HP) that I ride regularly. The pop off of small lips and out of turns on the T.Rice is essentially nothing unless it's loaded from the tail or nose, the return force is negligable on an even pop. On the other hand, the extr txtr has some significant throw during a pop, which helps to initiate spins and force additional height off of small features.
> 
> The OP was wondering why their rockered board felt dead on jumps compared to their cambered ride. Whether you perceive that kind of pop to be useless or not, that's why it feels dead.


Again, no. If you try to snap a rocker like camber yes you will think it feels a bit dead. If you snap it correctly you get quicker amp letting you to get higher with more control cause you don't have to load your tip.

This center straight up pop thing is moot. It takes what like 8-10 lbs to flatten out most cambered park decks? Yeah 10 lbs of resistance is really going to give you snap.


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## Irahi (May 19, 2011)

Hey, now we're getting somewhere.



Nivek said:


> Again, no. If you try to snap a rocker like camber yes you will think it feels a bit dead.


Yes. The kinds of pop you get out of a rockered board and a cambered board are different. This would be exactly what I said.



Nivek said:


> This center straight up pop thing is moot. It takes what like 8-10 lbs to flatten out most cambered park decks? Yeah 10 lbs of resistance is really going to give you snap.


10 pounds of resistance is pretty significant, and consider that the effect is essentially doubled when you're popping off of a concave surface, which you will do any time you're hitting the lip of a naturally formed side hit. Remember that rockered boards lose their tension on a concave surface, and cambered boards gain more tension. So it may be 10 lbs worth of pressure, but it's more like a difference of 20 lbs or more between the board types, and the perceived difference is what we're talking about here. 20 lbs of pressure for someone who weighs ~120 lbs like the OP is like gaining 17% more boost on a pop.

Seems significant to me, at least significant enough to be able to immediately tell the difference.


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## mixie (Mar 29, 2011)

Irahi said:


> Hey, now we're getting somewhere.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


well, I weigh a lot more then 120lbs. Im flattered tho, thanks. So yes, I did notice the difference right away. and that is what I wanted to know, is the pop from a rocker/hybrid board different from that of a cambered board. OR was the difference I was feeling due to the board being softer then what I was used to. 


It's probably a bit of both but in the end I am willing to trade that snappy poppy launhed feeling for the benefits of the hybrid shape. Plus, I still have my cambered deck which will probably see use at my local resorts and early season days. So win win right?


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## poutanen (Dec 22, 2011)

Irahi said:


> Seems significant to me, at least significant enough to be able to immediately tell the difference.


Just because I like to be scientific, I did a little experiment with my board. Now given it isn't a park board it's likely significantly stiffer. But here's a pic showing it takes about 20 pounds to flaten out the camber (given each paper bundle weighs 5 lb). And another pic showing it takes 60 pounds to give it about 3/4" raised tip and tail rocker profile. Now I have no idea what the profile of most jumps kickers are, but I'd be willing to be it's roughly this rocker shape.

That means if I'm jumping straight up with my board on snow that's this profile, I'll have roughly 60 pounds pushing up on me. Considering my board and bindings weigh 11 pounds, and I weigh 169, that 60 pounds is fully 33% of my weight pushing up on me. I'd say that's significant! 

Clickable thumbnails as always...


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## mixie (Mar 29, 2011)

dayum dude....I thought I was obsessed/OCD/Just plain crazy but you clearly go above and beyond. Nice demo!!

:thumbsup:


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## poutanen (Dec 22, 2011)

mixie said:


> dayum dude....I thought I was obsessed/OCD/Just plain crazy but you clearly go above and beyond. Nice demo!!
> 
> :thumbsup:


LOL yeah I leave my board in my truck at all times for just such an occasion. :laugh:

edit: By the way, I'd like you to rape both of your boards for a while and then report back. I'm trying real hard to not be anti-rocker or hybrid, and maybe some long term test results will help me be a better person!


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## mixie (Mar 29, 2011)

poutanen said:


> LOL yeah I leave my board in my truck at all times for just such an occasion. :laugh:
> 
> edit: By the way, I'd like you to rape both of your boards for a while and then report back. I'm trying real hard to not be anti-rocker or hybrid, and maybe some long term test results will help me be a better person!


the Capita? Sure, it's the cambered deck and you can rape away. The Envi? well I just bought her yesterday. She's still a virgin so I'm gonna have to say no. For now anyway. :laugh:


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## poutanen (Dec 22, 2011)

mixie said:


> the Capita? Sure, it's the cambered deck and you can rape away. The Envi? well I just bought her yesterday. She's still a virgin so I'm gonna have to say no. For now anyway. :laugh:


Okay well treat her gently for a bit but then you gotta give'er... I'm convinced the market will swing back towards camber one day but I want somebody to help prove me wrong!


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## handscreate (Jan 17, 2012)

poutanen said:


> Okay well treat her gently for a bit but then you gotta give'er... I'm convinced the market will swing back towards camber one day but I want somebody to help prove me wrong!


Traditional Camber is making a comeback in a lot 2013 models. Forum for example, has adapted Camber profiles in lieu of some of their Chilidog profiles in The Youngblood & another model or 2. They're also putting Grand Pops (also a camber profile) in a lot of boards for 2013. Other companies are bringing back Camber as well. Different strokes for different folks - Camber will never disappear because it works and has a purpose, just as Reverse Camber & Hybrid profiles do. I bought a Bully Doubledog this season & love the hybrid camber so far, but I'm not getting rid of my stiff traditional camber board anytime soon.


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## mixie (Mar 29, 2011)

I did love the Lotus, the Envi just beat it out by a hair. The Lotus was pretty rad and it held speed better then the Envi but the Evni just gripped the ice a bit better. Also, the Lotus was SO damp, it almost felt dead. The Envi was just a bit more lively. Honestly I wanted to try another NS model that was maybe a touch stiffer but they were W A Y to wide for me. 



I had a super stiff board before, it was sort of unforgiving. I learned on that thing and man did it dump me on my ass (and face, and head) I was just so used to it, it took a bit to adjust to the other boards. I am sort of still missing my super stiff board but I am sure I'll get over it. Probably by next week. 

I was 100% sold on the hybrid shape due to the float in powder. The camber deck is in very bad condition and needs to be replaced. And buying a pure powder board isn't really practical. Yet. 


I realized I should write an end of season buying guide for bfs/husbands as I demoed all the top end girl boards  I kinda want to try a few park boards now, too.


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## Nivek (Jan 24, 2008)

Fair enough with the demo, but you're on a Donnek or a Kessler right? Stiff freeride boards. We're talking about softer women's park boards. Do the same test to even a Signal OG and it wont take half the weight to level out and still less then half give your bit of rocker. So something even softer like the Park or Vita will take even less. 

I'll admit I was bored and this seemed like a good place to entertain myself. Does the energy in camber make a difference? Hell yeah. Is it a performance difference the average rider needs? Nope. I'd guess even half the top pros arent jumping full camber anymore. Is it coming back? Yes, but more in forms like Flows Popcam or Salomons new similar design or Ride Hybridrize.

My solution? Flat. My two main decks are an OG Flat with the Omni layup minus the carbon and a Park Flat.


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## poutanen (Dec 22, 2011)

Nivek said:


> Fair enough with the demo, but you're on a Donnek or a Kessler right? Stiff freeride boards. We're talking about softer women's park boards. Do the same test to even a Signal OG and it wont take half the weight to level out and still less then half give your bit of rocker. So something even softer like the Park or Vita will take even less.


True, I'm on a Burton T7, still bloody stiff though. Mine is the extreme case but at 170 pounds I'm also a lot heavier than most women riders, so the net "pop" might still be similar. I'd be curious to see some real world math around how much extra height you'd get (if any) given the same speed and force being applied with your legs off the same jump.

I think what this thread does is prove that a stiff freeride board can also be a big air king.  I'm going to test the theory this weekend...


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