# Need Avalanche bags for japan.../????



## deagol (Mar 26, 2014)

Killclimbz has one, you might ask him..

I've only read reviews on it, some very positive, some a little less so.


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## SGboarder (Jun 24, 2012)

frankyfc said:


> Hey guys.
> Japan bound in january.
> Looking at getting a jetforce avi pack for general use (french apes etc).
> Was going to hold off a while whilst saving but now thinking of getting it in time for japan.
> Does anyone use them out there? Are they needed?


Yes, lots of people in Japan use avi bags.

Are they needed? Not in the sense that the law/resorts rules/backcountry guides/etc. required them.


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## Decade190 (Feb 26, 2012)

SGboarder said:


> frankyfc said:
> 
> 
> > Hey guys.
> ...


Think op means more like whether the risks justify/necessitate them. 
Interesting I’m researching Japan now too and there’s a whole thread of people who ride with no gear as nisekos gates are “safe”. 
That to me sounds dubious, much as I love to ride without a backpack, not even having a beacon sounds mad.


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## SGboarder (Jun 24, 2012)

Decade190 said:


> Think op means more like whether the risks justify/necessitate them.
> Interesting I’m researching Japan now too and there’s a whole thread of people who ride with no gear as nisekos gates are “safe”.
> That to me sounds dubious, much as I love to ride without a backpack, not even having a beacon sounds mad.


That is a personal decision - so far there is just not sufficient data to make a clear statement on how beneficial avi airbags are. Arguably less beneficial in Japan where slides are less frequent (but they do happen!) and a lot of the terrain is below the tree line (where an airbag is likely less useful).

Niseko gates are a special case. While the area outside the gates is not patrolled or avalanche controlled, there are assessment of the conditions (and the gates are often closed as a result - at which point the area outside become prohibited terrain and you can have yoru pass confiscated) and some gates do require beacons.
That said, I almost always carry basic avalanche gear (beacon, shovel, probe) when outside the gates.


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## killclimbz (Aug 10, 2007)

The general consensus in the states on effectiveness is you are getting around a 50% bump in survival/staying on top. That number floats around a bit.

That said, this is only where terrain is conducive to the use of an airbag. If you are below treeline, there are lots of things that can puncture or tear the bag. I also had a friend have to pop his airbag below treeline last year, it kept him on top and it looked like it helped him drag out of the slide. It was a small slide in the trees. Enough to drag you along. If it was larger, the airbag may not have helped drag him out. Regardless, it did seem to give him an assist in that situation and was certainly not useless.

As far as needing one for Japan. It certainly doesn't hurt to have, but not a necessity. It really comes down to what you are comfortable with or without. Just make sure you always have the basics.


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## frankyfc (Aug 11, 2017)

SGboarder said:


> That is a personal decision - so far there is just not sufficient data to make a clear statement on how beneficial avi airbags are. Arguably less beneficial in Japan where slides are less frequent (but they do happen!) and a lot of the terrain is below the tree line (where an airbag is likely less useful).
> 
> Niseko gates are a special case. While the area outside the gates is not patrolled or avalanche controlled, there are assessment of the conditions (and the gates are often closed as a result - at which point the area outside become prohibited terrain and you can have yoru pass confiscated) and some gates do require beacons.
> That said, I almost always carry basic avalanche gear (beacon, shovel, probe) when outside the gates.





killclimbz said:


> The general consensus in the states on effectiveness is you are getting around a 50% bump in survival/staying on top. That number floats around a bit.
> 
> That said, this is only where terrain is conducive to the use of an airbag. If you are below treeline, there are lots of things that can puncture or tear the bag. I also had a friend have to pop his airbag below treeline last year, it kept him on top and it looked like it helped him drag out of the slide. It was a small slide in the trees. Enough to drag you along. If it was larger, the airbag may not have helped drag him out. Regardless, it did seem to give him an assist in that situation and was certainly not useless.
> 
> As far as needing one for Japan. It certainly doesn't hurt to have, but not a necessity. It really comes down to what you are comfortable with or without. Just make sure you always have the basics.



Oh right. well i'm convinced that they help, how much is unclear. but it is hard not to have the mindset of wanting every advantage possible in the worst situation. Issue really is the price and weight (thus impaired riding quality). As you say though, I will be carrying a backpack for shovel and prove anyway so doesn't make a huge difference. 

Where was that slide? Japan?

yeah, well i guess in theory the jet force bags are better below the tree line as they can function with small tears (in theory). 

I guess in niseko maybe an airbag isn't needed... but maybe for the yotei hike and other resorts?

I've looked and i can rent out there but it costs so much i'm better bringing with and selling after if not needed anymore!

Thanks,


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## killclimbz (Aug 10, 2007)

frankyfc said:


> Oh right. well i'm convinced that they help, how much is unclear. but it is hard not to have the mindset of wanting every advantage possible in the worst situation. Issue really is the price and weight (thus impaired riding quality). As you say though, I will be carrying a backpack for shovel and prove anyway so doesn't make a huge difference.
> 
> Where was that slide? Japan?
> 
> ...


Slide was in Colorado. Not Japan, but still relevant. It could have gone the other way and the bag was ripped too. Saying they are worthless in the trees isn't 100% true though. 

Airbags aren't needed, until you need one. But you can say that about a lot of things in life. If you were going to pick up a Jetforce bag this season, it's probably worth it.

The one piece of advice is the carry volume on the Pieps models at least is way less than advertised. I got the 34 Liter pack and I have made it work. If I had to do it over, I would have bought the 45L Jet Force. The airbag is considerably larger than other bags on the market and therefore takes up considerable space. BD swore to me that their volumes were the actual volume, but the reality is, the bag takes up some of that space. My pack is more like a 28-30 liter bag.


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## neni (Dec 24, 2012)

frankyfc said:


> Issue really is the price and weight (*thus impaired riding quality*).


Thats just a matter of getting used to it. I ride with a Pieps Tour Pro Jetforce and I'm a light rider. It felt bulky n heavy the first runs, sure. But one gets used to them quickly. I dont feel/recognize it anymore if riding lightly packed on resort days. 
Exersise at home mtn with your pack to be familiar with the weight and you're good.


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## Decade190 (Feb 26, 2012)

killclimbz said:


> frankyfc said:
> 
> 
> > Oh right. well i'm convinced that they help, how much is unclear. but it is hard not to have the mindset of wanting every advantage possible in the worst situation. Issue really is the price and weight (thus impaired riding quality). As you say though, I will be carrying a backpack for shovel and prove anyway so doesn't make a huge difference.
> ...





neni said:


> frankyfc said:
> 
> 
> > Issue really is the price and weight (*thus impaired riding quality*).
> ...


Oh really. Is it massively reduced? I was going to get the 11 litre pilot myself as I will only use for lift access, sidecountry hikes and a bit of cat skiing. 

I pack light - usually an extra layer, goggle lense, avi kit, water... never anything more. Sometimes snow shoes on the back. I hate having a big bag or extra gear. Like I jump/spin etc.
Think I’ll fit a days worth, might have to look at the pieps 24 instead?

I presume you’re doing multi day tours? Never get how people head on around resort on a day with 30-litres of gear. One of my pals always does that.


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## killclimbz (Aug 10, 2007)

Decade190 said:


> Oh really. Is it massively reduced? I was going to get the 11 litre pilot myself as I will only use for lift access, sidecountry hikes and a bit of cat skiing.
> 
> I pack light - usually an extra layer, goggle lense, avi kit, water... never anything more. Sometimes snow shoes on the back. I hate having a big bag or extra gear. Like I jump/spin etc.
> Think I’ll fit a days worth, might have to look at the pieps 24 instead?
> ...


Mostly day tours, but I do not normally do resort accessed. Still for me to carry water, extra googles, gloves, warm layer, first aid kit, it's a tight fit. If I was doing the slack country thing, I would go with a smaller pack.

*edit: Oh yeah and skins... Thanks neni!


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## neni (Dec 24, 2012)

Decade190 said:


> Oh really. Is it massively reduced? I was going to get the 11 litre pilot myself as I will only use for lift access, sidecountry hikes and a bit of cat skiing.
> 
> I pack light - usually an extra layer, goggle lense, avi kit, water... never anything more. Sometimes snow shoes on the back. I hate having a big bag or extra gear. Like I jump/spin etc.
> Think I’ll fit a days worth, might have to look at the pieps 24 instead?
> ...


Multiday split tours. Need space for skins and beauty case 

Usually at home I use the smaller Mammut PAS for resort days as it is lower profile. But sometimes I just have the Jepforce at hand so I use that one. Or for travels to it's jetforce anyway. TSA and/or finding cartridge refilling stationd is too much PITA.


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## WasabiCanuck (Apr 29, 2015)

I'm not much of a back country guy but I snowboarded lots in Japan back in the day. I think airbags would be over kill in Japan. The mountains in Japan are lower and not as steep as Alps or Rockies. Pretty much everything in Japan is below the treeline. Anyhow be safe and and have fun.


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## DaveMcI (Aug 19, 2013)

I have zero air ag knowledge and had an off topic quesion. Would an air bag help u in anyway in a tree hole situation? Or would it send u deeper into trouble. I picture a pimple popping effect if u were feet up in a tree well, if u could reach it.


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## killclimbz (Aug 10, 2007)

DaveMcI said:


> I have zero air ag knowledge and had an off topic quesion. Would an air bag help u in anyway in a tree hole situation? Or would it send u deeper into trouble. I picture a pimple popping effect if u were feet up in a tree well, if u could reach it.



Doubtful. Tree wells are a different beast all together. An avalung is about the most effective thing. Some tree wells can be insanely deep. Especially in climates with a maritime snow pack. We are talking 2-3 meters deep. Even if you go in feet first, there is a good chance you won't get out without assistance from someone else. An avalung will allow you to breathe while waiting for rescue.


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## frankyfc (Aug 11, 2017)

WasabiCanuck said:


> I'm not much of a back country guy but I snowboarded lots in Japan back in the day. I think airbags would be over kill in Japan. The mountains in Japan are lower and not as steep as Alps or Rockies. Pretty much everything in Japan is below the treeline. Anyhow be safe and and have fun.


So sounds like most people don't take avi bags out to japan?

I'm thinking a light backpack with shovel/probe might just about do it...
Niseko area definitely sounds like no point having the avi bag. it's the days hiking yotei etc that i wonder about...


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## SGboarder (Jun 24, 2012)

frankyfc said:


> So sounds like most people don't take avi bags out to japan?
> 
> I'm thinking a light backpack with shovel/probe might just about do it...
> Niseko area definitely sounds like no point having the avi bag. it's the days hiking yotei etc that i wonder about...


_Lots_ of people use avi bags in the backcountry in Japan. Myself included. 
The exception are the masses going through the Niseko 'Gates', 99% of them don't have basic avalanche gear or training let alone airbags.

Oh and Youtei is firmly in the Niseko area


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## frankyfc (Aug 11, 2017)

SGboarder said:


> _Lots_ of people use avi bags in the backcountry in Japan. Myself included.
> The exception are the masses going through the Niseko 'Gates', 99% of them don't have basic avalanche gear or training let alone airbags.
> 
> Oh and Youtei is firmly in the Niseko area


Thanks! so you use one yourself when heading to japan? what sort out of interest?

I know yotei is niseko based - just sounded higher risk as not avi controlled, some more exposed faces and i've read about a few slides up there. 

Thanks!


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