# Where are Rome Boards Made?



## ThunderChunky

I was under the impression that they were made in Canada. But when I got my 2012 Garage Rocker is said that it was made in Taiwan. Really disappointed in Rome. I'm guessing that this could possibly just mean the graphics. I'm not sure; anybody know? :dunno:


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## Nivek

Taiwan. Yeppers.

Overseas quality control is better than USA or Canaduh.


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## ThunderChunky

When did this start?


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## NJtuna

In a sweatshop = more profit! Be proud, you helped a kid earn a nickle! :laugh: jk


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## dreampow

Is it the right board for you?

If so enjoy, any factory any where could make a crap board or a good board. Depends on the way its run and the quality control.


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## Snowboard_Otaku

i dont see why people hate on boards when its made over sea.... maybe people in taiwan need to make a living too lol ?....


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## Nivek

Taiwanese steel is freakin great so yeah.


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## ThunderChunky

It's the quality of the board they're worried about. To be fair though they make just as good boards as anybody else. I'm not upset because of that though, I'm mad because they act like they're different from the rest and bash corporate overseas companies like Burton and then there they are shipping boards across the Pacific.


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## Nivek

ThunderChunky said:


> It's the quality of the board they're worried about. To be fair though they make just as good boards as anybody else. I'm not upset because of that though, I'm mad because they act like they're different from the rest and bash corporate overseas companies like Burton and then there they are shipping boards across the Pacific.


Welcome to snowboading. Its all about image. Get used to it.


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## ThunderChunky

Yeah, but Rome had the right idea there for a while.


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## cjcameron11

just curious as to why this would be an issue, if you wear clothes, drive a car, or eat food chances are you are supporting overseas production, im tipping if Rome made their boards in the US they may not be the price they are. *not trying to start an economic discussion just saying


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## Snowboard_Otaku

ThunderChunky said:


> It's the quality of the board they're worried about. To be fair though they make just as good boards as anybody else. I'm not upset because of that though, I'm mad because they act like they're different from the rest and bash corporate overseas companies like Burton and then there they are shipping boards across the Pacific.


if their quality was not good then no body would buy form them and they would go out of business.. thus regardless of where it was made... the board has to be at least of decent quality


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## ThunderChunky

Yah, I know. But it's not like I'm that involved and care as much about my food and care as much as my snowboard. Call me crazy but I don't care, I take longer to choose my board than my car. I definitely understand that it's not much difference in quality, but it was just a big plus for the company. I wondered why their prices have went down a shit ton. Whatever, Rome is still involved with their riders (they're on here) and as far as I can see is still for the most part what they say. Never really noticed Signal but they seem like a pretty genuine company too.


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## 604al

I thought only their higher end boards were made in Austria, but after checking this out with my own eyes this doesn't seem to be the case. I know for sure:
- 2011 Rome Agent Rocker, 2012 Rome Postermania = made in Austria
- 2011 Rome Postermania, 2012 Rome Reverb = made in Taiwan


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## danm

Well there's plenty of USA made companies if that's your deal... Mervin, NS, Smokin... plenty more. (I'm a Lib guy just to be honest)


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## BurtonAvenger

I've said it before and I'll say it again I don't need a snowboarder to make my boards I need a factory worker. The Orient has better factory workers. Global economy for a global sport. Oh no a company found a way to make money while saving their bottom line so they can further invest in R&D. You want to cry about Rome you know they're a member on here right?


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## ThunderChunky

BurtonAvenger said:


> I've said it before and I'll say it again I don't need a snowboarder to make my boards I need a factory worker. The Orient has better factory workers. Global economy for a global sport. Oh no a company found a way to make money while saving their bottom line so they can further invest in R&D. You want to cry about Rome you know they're a member on here right?


Yea, I've talked to them before. You really are a miserable person aren't you. If you would read a little you would see were I say 

"I definitely understand that it's not much difference in quality, but it was just a big plus for the company. I wondered why their prices have went down a shit ton. Whatever, Rome is still involved with their riders (they're on here) and as far as I can see is still for the most part what they say. Never really noticed Signal but they seem like a pretty genuine company too."

I care about the companies I buy from because I care about the sport. I'm sorry if that upsets you.


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## BurtonAvenger

Douche juice that wasn't directed at you if it was you would have known it cause I'd have fist fucked you through the internet and left you crying over all the blood and feces on your keyboard. That was a generalization to everyone that gets all up in arms over some stupid bullshit that is so beyond their control and have no common sense to understand business need to make money to keep going. You want to step into the thunderdome with me?


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## ThunderChunky

BurtonAvenger said:


> You want to cry about Rome you know they're a member on here right?


I guess we have different interpretations of the English language. The first lesson of economics in a capital market is that the consumers have control over the companies through their purchases. It's about making more money and becoming larger, that's why they go overseas. If it were like you said then every single snowboard manufacturer would be overseas. And bro









And btw you really hurt my feelings. 


:laugh:


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## NJtuna

LOL, BurtonAvenger has anger issues...you remind me of people at my work, in jail! haha, but funny response.


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## ThunderChunky

NJtuna said:


> LOL, BurtonAvenger has anger issues...you remind me of people at my work, in jail! haha, but funny response.


What a coincidence, I live next to a Prison.


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## BurtonAvenger

You really want to step into the realm of snowboard construction with me? First off Asia has some of the best manufacturing facilities both in textile and hardgoods and gives a more central location to distribute to Europe and the U.S. while maintaining the Asian market which has something like 300% growth every year over the last decade. Logistically it makes sense. Add to that the fact you can get cheaper labor that is better than some stoner snowboarder doing lay up, granted I'll let people argue that point with me all they want but unless you've ridden more than 100 boards in a season I feel your opinion is a pile of shit and does not matter especially to me. 

Oh how cute you learned how to post a picture finally I'm impressed. You interpreted it as a direct attack at you and suddenly you have to puff up your keyboard hero power and let the fingers fly. That was a generalization to anyone that wants to piss and moan. 

Now if you really want to get into it with me about snowboarding bring it cause I'm pretty sure I can drop more knowledge on you both locally and globally about snowboarding than you can comprehend. Remember Function snowboards in Ellicottville? Probably not. 

Don't cry that someone shit on peoples mindsets that are miniscule. Also the average snowboard consumer is a fucking retard and I have more than enough comments and emails to back that statement up.


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## TXBDan

Its not a matter of quality, China and Taiwan have come a long way in producing quality products in the past 20 years. But for some people it is a matter of ethics. Would you rather buy from a company that gives Americans jobs at a decent wage or a company that uses 9 year old kids working 12hr shifts 7 days a weeks for pennies a day? I'm not a crazy hippie or anything, but those are the facts. google about the suicides at the Foxconn plant in China who makes most of the electronics we use every day. I'm guilty of buying tons of stuff made over seas, but I always look at where and how stuff is made. If i can swing it, then i'll try to buy stuff made in the US or at least by countries with fair labor practices. 

Vote with your dollars! This is one of the reasons i'm looking at Lib Tech for my next board.


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## ThunderChunky

You're arguing with yourself. I have no clue where any of that stuff applies to opposing what I said. I said that companies make more money by making products overseas and that it would make sense if you want to expand and become a bigger corporation. You just feel you need to prove you know what you're talking about so you say a bunch of irrelevant shit. The average snowboarder is an idiot you're right, but they don't spend even close to the amount of money on products as the knowledgeable crowd. You're the one who is becoming offended here, you always do and then get into a fight. You accuse everyone here of crying, but that is all you do. Stop acting like you're some all knowing god that is better than everyone. You really piss on the sport, focus on having fun with other boarders instead of always trying to 1up them and shun them because you think you're better than them.


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## Nivek

TXBDan said:


> Would you rather buy from a company that gives Americans jobs at a decent wage or a company that uses 9 year old kids working 12hr shifts 7 days a weeks for pennies a day? I'm not a crazy hippie or anything, but those are the facts. google about the suicides at the Foxconn plant in China who makes most of the electronics we use every day. I'm guilty of buying tons of stuff made over seas, but I always look at where and how stuff is made. If i can swing it, then i'll try to buy stuff made in the US or at least by countries with fair labor practices.
> 
> Vote with your dollars! This is one of the reasons i'm looking at Lib Tech for my next board.


Decent wage? I can tell you that US snowboard factory workers are lucky to get $15 an hour. If you compare and account for differences in cost of living it is probably similar to what they get in China. They don't employ 9 year olds, jackstack, that was Nike in the 80's. Do you really think a snowboard company is going to allow for that? Sure our industry is big, but it's not big enough to get away with that, there are global labor laws. Not to mention a 9 year old is incapable of finishing a snowboard. The last guy Signal hired lasted a week and quit cause it was too hard. It's a hard ass job.

Also, do you ride in bindings? Boots? A jacket? Pants? Goggles? All but a very very select few are China. By few I mean less than 10 and all will be very small companies.

As BA says, I want a factory worker making my board, not some douchette uninterested rider just so I can say for riders BY riders.


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## ThunderChunky

Like he said^, it's not that bad anymore. But it is still not like it is here. I wish I could make $15.00 an hour . But then again C-O-L varies by state.


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## TXBDan

saying Chinese labor conditions are similar to US labor conditions is beyond ridiculous. educate yourself.

And who said an american factory worker is any less skilled than a foreign one? thats ridiculous, too. These companies wouldn't be in business if they had joe-snowboarder making boards wrong all day long.


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## BurtonAvenger

ThunderChunky said:


> You're arguing with yourself. I have no clue where any of that stuff applies to opposing what I said. I said that companies make more money by making products overseas and that it would make sense if you want to expand and become a bigger corporation. You just feel you need to prove you know what you're talking about so you say a bunch of irrelevant shit. The average snowboarder is an idiot you're right, but they don't spend even close to the amount of money on products as the knowledgeable crowd. You're the one who is becoming offended here, you always do and then get into a fight. You accuse everyone here of crying, but that is all you do. Stop acting like you're some all knowing god that is better than everyone. You really piss on the sport, focus on having fun with other boarders instead of always trying to 1up them and shun them because you think you're better than them.


Dumbass remove your head from your ass and maybe you can comprehend this. I made a generalization to everyone you are the one that took it personally and let it inflame your hemroids to the point you felt the need to go on and on. Don't cry someone made a generalization you didn't like and knows far more about the subject at hand. 

Sport? This isn't a sport to me also didn't realize you ride with me on a daily basis cause I'm pretty sure I've been all smiles and having fun riding the last few days. When's KB open again? Don't be pissed I'm riding.


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## cjcameron11

i just want a great product at a reasonable price i dont really care where its made. Although in saying that 90% of the food i buy is local produce from Australia, thats another issue and i do it for healthy food choice reasons. As far as clothes electronic goods and on the topic, snowboard gear i have no choice but to buy goods made in other countries as it is not economically viable for production to take place in Aus.

I am all for supporting your countries economy and production but sometimes we just cant, now this is turning into a morals and ethics conversation where it started as a simple "i didnt know" thread. no one is going to have the exact same views and beliefs so why dont we all just smoke the peace pipe and agree to disagree.

As for BA, yeah he can come accross as a prick with his blunt responses and i myself had a crack at him when i first joined this site but i do believe he has helped more people (including me) than most people on this site ever will. Once you get over the initial defensive response that most of us have when we "feel" we are being challenged, most of what he says is new information for which i then take on board. Before you say it, yeah sure you can go about it another way but to be honest i laugh daily at his responses so to me its awesome.


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## ThunderChunky

BurtonAvenger said:


> Dumbass remove your head from your ass and maybe you can comprehend this. I made a generalization to everyone you are the one that took it personally and let it inflame your hemroids to the point you felt the need to go on and on. Don't cry someone made a generalization you didn't like and knows far more about the subject at hand.
> 
> Sport? This isn't a sport to me also didn't realize you ride with me on a daily basis cause I'm pretty sure I've been all smiles and having fun riding the last few days. When's KB open again? Don't be pissed I'm riding.


You're on a whole different planet man. A really pissed off planet, I don't know where any of this is coming from. Don't try to save yourself by saying it was a generalization, you were talking to me and got proven wrong. Which on your planet can't happen. I am seriously disappointed if you're above the age of 18, cause you're pretty immature.


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## BurtonAvenger

You're still going on and on about a general statement not directed at you? Well people welcome to the ME generation the generation that 4 of 5 will die before the age of 50 because they're degenerate pieces of shit. Thank you for playing and good luck I strongly recommend having a proctologist check out that severe case of butt hurt.


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## ThunderChunky

BurtonAvenger said:


> You're still going on and on about a general statement not directed at you? Well people welcome to the ME generation the generation that 4 of 5 will die before the age of 50 because they're degenerate pieces of shit. Thank you for playing and good luck I strongly recommend having a proctologist check out that severe case of butt hurt.



You talk about how you are generalizing, but you continue to personally attack someone. I answered you're question and you got all offended. It's not like I care if you know more than me. We both agree with each other. We are not arguing a point here, at least I'm not we both agree I just don't think you know it. You're just pissed and keep spewing out random shit, that I'm not disagreeing with. I don't get why you continue to try to call me an idiot and attack me. You're the one that's genuinely offended here. And now you're using a Red Herring fallacy in you're argument, which doesn't really exist.


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## david_z

ThunderChunky said:


> I guess we have different interpretations of the English language. The first lesson of economics in a capital market is that the consumers have control over the companies through their purchases. It's about making more money and becoming larger, that's why they go overseas. If it were like you said then every single snowboard manufacturer would be overseas.


If you really want to nitpick, you've totally misused the term "capital market" :cheeky4:


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## BurtonAvenger

No shit I'm personally attacking you, you're the dumbass that took it personal. Once again the ME generation rears its ugly head. We've long since moved on past any of the original points I've made you're hung up on one thing now.


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## ThunderChunky

david_z said:


> If you really want to nitpick, you've totally misused the term "capital market" :cheeky4:


How? (and I am literally just asking, no hostility here). Just would like to know so I could correct myself. Let's not let this get outta hand.


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## ThunderChunky

BurtonAvenger said:


> No shit I'm personally attacking you, you're the dumbass that took it personal. Once again the ME generation rears its ugly head. We've long since moved on past any of the original points I've made you're hung up on one thing now.


You asked if "you" knew that Rome was on these forums and I said yes, if you would read my post I say that I applaud them being on here and wondered why you're always ranting, granted there is a lot to rant about. Then you started going ape shit.


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## david_z

ThunderChunky said:


> How? (and I am literally just asking, no hostility here). Just would like to know so I could correct myself. Let's not let this get outta hand.


Yeah I'm just giving you a hard time mostly, no sweat.

A capital market is a market for securities (debt or equity), where business and governments raise long-term funds. 

I think the term you were looking for was "market-based economy", and what you're describing is known as "consumer sovereignty": consumers exercise some degree of checks/balances over corporations by purchasing (or refraining from purchasing) goods and services.

cheers!


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## ThunderChunky

david_z said:


> Yeah I'm just giving you a hard time mostly, no sweat.
> 
> A capital market is a market for securities (debt or equity), where business and governments raise long-term funds.
> 
> I think the term you were looking for was "market-based economy", and what you're describing is known as "consumer sovereignty": consumers exercise some degree of checks/balances over corporations by purchasing (or refraining from purchasing) goods and services.
> 
> cheers!


Free market is what I meant. When you're in college, classes that were a year ago are long forgotten. :laugh:


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## Nivek

TXBDan said:


> saying Chinese labor conditions are similar to US labor conditions is beyond ridiculous. educate yourself.
> 
> And who said an american factory worker is any less skilled than a foreign one? thats ridiculous, too. These companies wouldn't be in business if they had joe-snowboarder making boards wrong all day long.


Oh so you've been in a snowboard factory in the US and China? Oh well ok then. If it was that shitty then their quality control wouldn't be better.

We're American, if it's not for me, its not a priority. Building them wrong? No, but with less care and let little things slide? Hell yeah. When you're here, working for a snowboard company making boards you're probably all broey with the production manager. Botch a couple every now and again, no biggie. Do that in China and you get replaced quick. Plenty of people looking for jobs out there and the factory manager most likely sees them just as employees instead of bros like they would here. So as a line worker there you better be good at it or you're getting canned.


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## ThunderChunky

And to think.....I just wanted to know where Rome boards were manufactured now. :laugh:


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## Nivek

ThunderChunky said:


> And to think.....I just wanted to know where Rome boards were manufactured now. :laugh:


Yeah you or anyone else shouldn't hint at not liking their snowboard gear being from overseas in here. It always starts this same argument with those that know what's going on, and those that don't. And those that don't and are all gung ho "made in 'merica, fuck yeah" also tend to be Mervin fanboys... just an observation.


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## andreas

BurtonAvenger said:


> Douche juice that wasn't directed at you if it was you would have known it cause I'd have fist fucked you through the internet and left you crying over all the blood and feces on your keyboard. That was a generalization to everyone that gets all up in arms over some stupid bullshit that is so beyond their control and have no common sense to understand business need to make money to keep going. You want to step into the thunderdome with me?


:laugh: You are a fucking genius sir. 5:thumbsup: to you.


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## ThunderChunky

Nivek said:


> Yeah you or anyone else shouldn't hint at not liking their snowboard gear being from overseas in here. It always starts this same argument with those that know what's going on, and those that don't. And those that don't and are all gung ho "made in 'merica, fuck yeah" also tend to be Mervin fanboys... just an observation.


To be fair there's no black and white, I completely get what you're saying though. Not trying to start anything. I get what you're saying though, this board taught me that cause I was so stoked to get it and thought how good it was and then I see it is from Taiwan and flip shit. I know it's pretty much the same quality, just like buying from America, if it is practical. Not paying 1,100 for a board.*cough* Burton *cough*, split boards exempt.


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## Sick-Pow

This thread is awesome BTW. Boots, bindings, outerwear, all the plastics/resins, colors......

My Rossi Experience is made in China. Very bomber and well built, but finish is off a little, with many mistakes in the top sheet..

The new Barracuda is made in China. Samples looked amazing, and the retail boards were looking fine.

Never Summer just makes a different level board, in finishing. Venture, same. Never owned Lib. Seems all the USA made boutique boards are really well built. Not sure what BA is talking about. Maybe companies that are rightfully out of business now?

Rome's Austria boards were very good. How is the quality of yours?

Burton's Canada/austria boards were hit and miss for quality.

Capita austria boards, really nice.(Elan?)


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## Nivek

I actually don't fault Burton on the Vapor or Method. They aren't really trying to sell that to the snowboard industry in my opinion. They're made cause they can afford to do it. Then they have to write all that this board is the best bull shit or not even the rich pompous asses would buy it. Sure some team riders ride them, but if you were Nic Muller and it was free wouldn't you? I sure as hell would. The Method really is significantly lighter, its just not $1000 better than a Ride Highlife UL or a Flow Drifter.

It's not easy to "see" the differences. And NS is one of the US companies that is hard to fault on production, maybe BA can comment on their quality. I don't have enough experience. One thing I can say is you pay for NS, and Lib. A "well made" US made board usually comes with the US premium. Signal being an exception. Theirs are still competitively priced.


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## ThunderChunky

Sick-Pow said:


> This thread is awesome BTW. Boots, bindings, outerwear, all the plastics/resins, colors......
> 
> My Rossi Experience is made in China. Very bomber and well built, but finish is off a little, with many mistakes in the top sheet..
> 
> The new Barracuda is made in China. Samples looked amazing, and the retail boards were looking fine.
> 
> Never Summer just makes a different level board, in finishing. Venture, same. Never owned Lib. Seems all the USA made boutique boards are really well built. Not sure what BA is talking about. Maybe companies that are rightfully out of business now?
> 
> Rome's Austria boards were very good. How is the quality of yours?
> 
> Burton's Canada/austria boards were hit and miss for quality.
> 
> Capita austria boards, really nice.(Elan?)


My old Rome Cheap Trick was really good quality. Not sure where it was made though, a 2009/2010.


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## ThunderChunky

Nivek said:


> I actually don't fault Burton on the Vapor or Method. They aren't really trying to sell that to the snowboard industry in my opinion. They're made cause they can afford to do it. Then they have to write all that this board is the best bull shit or not even the rich pompous asses would buy it. Sure some team riders ride them, but if you were Nic Muller and it was free wouldn't you? I sure as hell would. The Method really is significantly lighter, its just not $1000 better than a Ride Highlife UL or a Flow Drifter.


I was just messing around. I know that they're not shit boards, just picking on Burton. Yes, I'm a Burton hater(sort of).


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## Sick-Pow

ThunderChunky said:


> I was just messing around. I know that they're not shit boards, just picking on Burton. Yes, I'm a Burton hater(sort of).


Burton only makes mistakes because they are so big. But they are the mostest Core of them all. You cannot argue that fact at all. A Private company.....no dishwasher/ski making owners is the corest of the core. And one of the fathers of modern snowboarding runs the place. I am from the west coast, but never understood any of the inter discipline hate of Burton. Great outerwear, gloves, bindings, board tech, boot tech, Old Custom X is an amazing board. Supermodel, amazing board, Malolo/Fish revolution for the masses.


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## ThunderChunky

Sick-Pow said:


> Burton only makes mistakes because they are so big. But they are the mostest Core of them all. You cannot argue that fact at all. A Private company.....no dishwasher/ski making owners is the corest of the core. And one of the fathers of modern snowboarding runs the place. I am from the west coast, but never understood any of the inter discipline hate of Burton. Great outerwear, gloves, bindings, board tech, boot tech, Old Custom X is an amazing board. Supermodel, amazing board, Malolo/Fish revolution for the masses.


Mostest is not a word, just being an ass JK. I don't really buy that 100%, I have had friends that own Burton and it all goes to hell. I have had the same problem too.


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## Sick-Pow

ThunderChunky said:


> Mostest is not a word, just being an ass JK. I don't really buy that 100%, I have had friends that own Burton and it all goes to hell. I have had the same problem too.


I like mostest!

Burton's gear gets more press on failures because more people use it (volume). The same type of failures happen across the industry. No one is perfect.

Your comment about "it all goes to hell" is too general, and before you tell me the detailed story (no dis), it does not matter, referred to sentences above. No one is perfect.


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## Nivek

ThunderChunky said:


> I was just messing around. I know that they're not shit boards, just picking on Burton. Yes, I'm a Burton hater(sort of).


I actually wasn't calling you out either. Just commenting on the topic you brought up. Burton hate is ridiculous. They're the "big guy" in the industry, an industry that started with rebellion and very grassroots kinda mentality. So it makes you way super cooler to hold on to that, even though you weren't there. Their boards? I loved the '10 Easy Livin Flyin V, the Sherlock is money for in bounds pow popping fun, the hinge on the new EST Malavitas apparently works well, the Asym straps are my favorite ankle straps outside Flow, the new Hero is solid, people (not me) quite like the Joystick... They have a lot of product so everyone is going to find something they don't like. They are finally realizing that stock forward lean is heinous and I think I'm in Cartels for this year. AK is great outerwear. Anon makes good shit. Ronin was solid back then. Only big thing I don't like of them now is EST. I still just don't trust it. Hardware comes loose. Always has and they haven't rid the world of that. I'd much rather have a 2 or 4 hole disc wiggle than my whole binding twist and slide if my hardware comes loose. Not too mention it makes outside bindings a pain in the ass to use. EST just isn't better enough than standard bolts.


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## ThunderChunky

Sick-Pow said:


> I like mostest!
> 
> Burton's gear gets more press on failures because more people use it (volume). The same type of failures happen across the industry. No one is perfect.
> 
> Your comment about "it all goes to hell" is too general, and before you tell me the detailed story (no dis), it does not matter, referred to sentences above. No one is perfect.


Yah, dude I get what you're saying. People have bad experiences with Rome and they tend to not like them, I get why.


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## Sick-Pow

Nivek said:


> I actually wasn't calling you out either. Just commenting on the topic you brought up. Burton hate is ridiculous. They're the "big guy" in the industry, an industry that started with rebellion and very grassroots kinda mentality. So it makes you way super cooler to hold on to that, even though you weren't there. Their boards? I loved the '10 Easy Livin Flyin V, the Sherlock is money for in bounds pow popping fun, the hinge on the new EST Malavitas apparently works well, the Asym straps are my favorite ankle straps outside Flow, the new Hero is solid, people (not me) quite like the Joystick... They have a lot of product so everyone is going to find something they don't like. They are finally realizing that stock forward lean is heinous and I think I'm in Cartels for this year. AK is great outerwear. Anon makes good shit. Ronin was solid back then. Only big thing I don't like of them now is EST. I still just don't trust it. Hardware comes loose. Always has and they haven't rid the world of that. I'd much rather have a 2 or 4 hole disc wiggle than my whole binding twist and slide if my hardware comes loose. Not too mention it makes outside bindings a pain in the ass to use. EST just isn't better enough than standard bolts.



I had M5 hardware break on me FYI. I am tougher than a bear, but I was fucking pissed at my potential demise at the hand of a bolt.

I am on some M6 shit now, but damn.

I rode a whole pow day with my 4x4 loose. Funny ass shit.


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## Nivek

Break? Damn that's awful. I will only ever break any hardware ever if it was super brittle and was a defect. I'm built like a very athletic 13 year old girl. I've only ever broken a toe ratchet. All my gear lasts me for ever.


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## ThunderChunky

Nivek said:


> I actually wasn't calling you out either. Just commenting on the topic you brought up. Burton hate is ridiculous. They're the "big guy" in the industry, an industry that started with rebellion and very grassroots kinda mentality. So it makes you way super cooler to hold on to that, even though you weren't there. Their boards? I loved the '10 Easy Livin Flyin V, the Sherlock is money for in bounds pow popping fun, the hinge on the new EST Malavitas apparently works well, the Asym straps are my favorite ankle straps outside Flow, the new Hero is solid, people (not me) quite like the Joystick... They have a lot of product so everyone is going to find something they don't like. They are finally realizing that stock forward lean is heinous and I think I'm in Cartels for this year. AK is great outerwear. Anon makes good shit. Ronin was solid back then. Only big thing I don't like of them now is EST. I still just don't trust it. Hardware comes loose. Always has and they haven't rid the world of that. I'd much rather have a 2 or 4 hole disc wiggle than my whole binding twist and slide if my hardware comes loose. Not too mention it makes outside bindings a pain in the ass to use. EST just isn't better enough than standard bolts.


I just don't like them because I feel that they have lost site of what snowboarding is to me. But I am only gonna put my money where I think it should go if I can afford it. Luckily I believe in Rome and they make pretty good boards.


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## Sick-Pow

Nivek said:


> Break? Damn that's awful. I will only ever break any hardware ever if it was super brittle and was a defect. I'm built like a very athletic 13 year old girl. I've only ever broken a toe ratchet. All my gear lasts me for ever.



Yeah, EST from 2009-2010 was sketchy IMO, OR, just because a bolt broke I am sketched out. I sold all my Burton boards from that time. Sucks, cause I had a sweet quiver, LTD fish too and a Malolo.

Oh wel, I don't hold a grudge either.


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## EchelonSnow

TXBDan said:


> Its not a matter of quality, China and Taiwan have come a long way in producing quality products in the past 20 years. But for some people it is a matter of ethics. Would you rather buy from a company that gives Americans jobs at a decent wage or a company that uses 9 year old kids working 12hr shifts 7 days a weeks for pennies a day? I'm not a crazy hippie or anything, but those are the facts. google about the suicides at the Foxconn plant in China who makes most of the electronics we use every day. I'm guilty of buying tons of stuff made over seas, but I always look at where and how stuff is made. If i can swing it, then i'll try to buy stuff made in the US or at least by countries with fair labor practices.
> 
> Vote with your dollars! This is one of the reasons i'm looking at Lib Tech for my next board.


Just so you know, snowboard factories in china don't employee 9-year olds. Every time I read these sort of comments I die a little inside, because I can guarantee the people making them have never been to china.

Our factory was quite pleasant, and frankly the people there take that shit (and their trade) seriously. Also - they got a two- hour lunchbreak.


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## EchelonSnow

Re: channel hardware slipping: Btw, Echelon has a fix, and a binding, for this problem . We hope to preview at SIA, but it will be 2013-14 product . Also, our solution won't lock you into 'the ditch' .


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## 604

Was Rome _ever_ made in Canada? Which factory? Option? Prior? I was always under the impression that Rome was made at Elan.


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## Sick-Pow

EchelonSnow said:


> Re: channel hardware slipping: Btw, Echelon has a fix, and a binding, for this problem . We hope to preview at SIA, but it will be 2013-14 product . Also, our solution won't lock you into 'the ditch' .



The channel never slipped. The OLD channel had some issues with the hardware, but the channel slipping was user error.


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## EchelonSnow

"Never" is a mighty long time, but I'm gonna tell ya...
-Prince

The thing is, whether user error or not, it is a problem built into the channel concept itself. If a user insufficiently tightens the hardware, or should that hardware loosen, then the way the channel is built can cause the bindings to slip forward to the maximum extents of the channel on a big landing. I've seen this happen, and it can happen even on the latest iteration.

Sure, this is the fault of the user. Sure, they were dumb not to preflight their equipment, but that doesn't really matter. What matters is that by design the channel has the ability to slip up to 6 inches front-to-back, depending on the initial stance of the rider. There are ways to gain the same level of micro-adjustability in the binding without such a large slip distance in case of system failure, which is what we are prototyping .


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## Sick-Pow

EchelonSnow said:


> "Never" is a mighty long time, but I'm gonna tell ya...
> -Prince
> 
> The thing is, whether user error or not, it is a problem built into the channel concept itself. If a user insufficiently tightens the hardware, or should that hardware loosen, then the way the channel is built can cause the bindings to slip forward to the maximum extents of the channel on a big landing. I've seen this happen, and it can happen even on the latest iteration.
> 
> Sure, this is the fault of the user. Sure, they were dumb not to preflight their equipment, but that doesn't really matter. What matters is that by design the channel has the ability to slip up to 6 inches front-to-back,


Dude, not to get into a pointless argument, but you read what you write, right? If a user does not tighten down their bindings, then they slip. The channel is not "designed to slip 6 inches". Quit making shit up.


There is no more discussion, unless you are trying to discredit the tech to push your own product......which is exactly what you are doing.....right? 

I had M5 EST hardware BREAK, M6 and the channel is totally different....and fixed these issues. Any other discussion is hyperbole.


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## EchelonSnow

Ummmmm... OK. You're getting a bit worked over nothing. Yes, the M5's broke. And YES, I am agreeing with you for the most part. But this is something that CAN happen - as I said, IF you don't tighten up AND if the rider is insipid. And YES the M6 hardware (Which should have been the first choice, really) by and large fixes the issue. But by design, the vulnerability still exists. I know this. I have seen it happen, last year, in person. It was sketchy, but the person did not fall (amazingly). It DID make the person move off of EST bindings though. The right response likely should have been "TIGHTEN UP, DUMMY", but everyone makes their own choices.

Get EST bindings and a channel board. Place them on your board, around where most people place their bindings. See the distance from the front bolt to the end of the channel? That is about 4 inches of travel. The travel can be more or less depending upon the stance and binding size.

I never said it happens ALL the time. I know that it HAS happened at least two times, one of them in my presence and the other an apocryphal "my buddy" story (so realistically, I know it happened once). My point is that there are other solutions. My solution will have its own issues, I am sure, because that is the nature of engineering. But whenever I hear someone say something "can't" or "never" happens, my radar goes active because it's not true. And I'm in the business of designing stuff (not in snowboarding, but other stuff) where we try to account for the small gaps between "never" and "very seldom" because it keeps people from expiring early.

We have channel boards in the office (as well as the iLock from whence it came) and we understand that the systems are different. But they certainly aren't failure proof. Ride what you want; Burton makes good products and I am in no way a Burton basher - they have likely done more for the sport than any other company could hope to, including starting the sport down the road to respectability. In my opinion, the Channel was not the right solution for micro-adjustability in bindings. It is very close, though. However, other people have their own opinions, and that is 100% ok.

As for "no more discussion", that's too bad because that sort of thinking leads to bad product design. Obviously if I thought the channel was perfect and unbeatable, I wouldn't make efforts to beat it, would I? (This is a reason we don't make boots; I cannot see a way to improve much on Salomon, 32,Vans, etc. I am not a cobbler, thusly I have no boots in dev). I see at least two ways in which I can improve it, and we are doing that. You've said they made at least one mistake in reversing the tried/true male/female arrangement on the bolts for season 1. Is it possible that they could have made more than one mistake? That's the nature of making stuff - it is an evolutionary and not revolutionary process. For all I know, they've already seen the issue and have fixed it completely in 2013-14.

------------------------------------------------------
Also, quick point: ""designed to slip 6 inches". Quit making shit up.". You put me in quotes, but that isn't what I said. If you really want to quote, then use the actual text: "by design the channel has the ability to slip up to 6 inches".
My statement is 100% accurate, in that the channel definitely, by its very design, has the ABILITY to do this. If it didn't, the bindings could not be mounted - it is sort of the whole point of the system, to be able to move freely in the channel when the bolts are loose, and then NOT SLIP when properly tightened. So I am not making anything up at all - I am merely showing a scenario in which, due to user error (like you said) the user can still experience a big-landing unscheduled binding adjustment. It is not a major issue, because frankly people should preflight. But in the same way that your car prevents you from starting the car in "Drive", good engineering forsees problems and deals with them as best it can.

The issue with slipping bindings is easy to see between channel and 4-pattern or 3-pattern disc-mount bindings; If you have even VERY loose disc bindings, they cannot slip fore-aft, but only rotationally, and even then your bolts must be backed out enough to allow the disc to completely disengage, which can only occur in the air (due to body weight pushing the disc down). The most that can happen is the wiggle we have all experienced that lets us know to tighten up if we had forgotten. The price we pay for that safety is a lack of micro adjustment and the reliance on a thick and heavy baseplate. (note: to be fair, if you mount Ride discs sideways, rather than across as intended, you can slip 6cm or so fore-aft as well, so don't do this  )

EST is different, in that loose hardware allows instant rotational and fore-aft adjustment by its design. This is awesome if you mean for it to be happening at the time, not so rad if it is not intended.

MORAL: EST is great, just check that hardware consistently to avoid this potential problem.


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## Sick-Pow

EchelonSnow said:


> Ummmmm... OK. You're getting a bit worked over nothing. Yes, the M5's broke. And YES, I am agreeing with you for the most part. But this is something that CAN happen - as I said, IF you don't tighten up AND if the rider is insipid. And YES the M6 hardware (Which should have been the first choice, really) by and large fixes the issue. But by design, the vulnerability still exists. I know this. I have seen it happen, last year, in person. It was sketchy, but the person did not fall (amazingly). It DID make the person move off of EST bindings though. The right response likely should have been "TIGHTEN UP, DUMMY", but everyone makes their own choices.
> 
> Get EST bindings and a channel board. Place them on your board, around where most people place their bindings. See the distance from the front bolt to the end of the channel? That is about 4 inches of travel. The travel can be more or less depending upon the stance and binding size.
> 
> I never said it happens ALL the time. I know that it HAS happened at least two times, one of them in my presence and the other an apocryphal "my buddy" story (so realistically, I know it happened once). My point is that there are other solutions. My solution will have its own issues, I am sure, because that is the nature of engineering. But whenever I hear someone say something "can't" or "never" happens, my radar goes active because it's not true. And I'm in the business of designing stuff (not in snowboarding, but other stuff) where we try to account for the small gaps between "never" and "very seldom" because it keeps people from expiring early.
> 
> We have channel boards in the office (as well as the iLock from whence it came) and we understand that the systems are different. But they certainly aren't failure proof. Ride what you want; Burton makes good products and I am in no way a Burton basher - they have likely done more for the sport than any other company could hope to, including starting the sport down the road to respectability. In my opinion, the Channel was not the right solution for micro-adjustability in bindings. It is very close, though. However, other people have their own opinions, and that is 100% ok.
> 
> As for "no more discussion", that's too bad because that sort of thinking leads to bad product design. Obviously if I thought the channel was perfect and unbeatable, I wouldn't make efforts to beat it, would I? (This is a reason we don't make boots; I cannot see a way to improve much on Salomon, 32,Vans, etc. I am not a cobbler, thusly I have no boots in dev). I see at least two ways in which I can improve it, and we are doing that. You've said they made at least one mistake in reversing the tried/true male/female arrangement on the bolts for season 1. Is it possible that they could have made more than one mistake? That's the nature of making stuff - it is an evolutionary and not revolutionary process. For all I know, they've already seen the issue and have fixed it completely in 2013-14.


No you are completely right, but your premise is slightly skewed which is why I am frustrated with those comments. If the user does not do their job, and tighten the bolts, it slips. Otherwise, it is user error. No one in Mountain biking complains about the manufacturer if their bolts come loose. Any further discourse is pointless to the end of only furthering ones own solutions. People who cannot wrench their own, use a shop. Hell, I rode a whole pow day with a 4x4 set up that I had left half screwed in from waxing. No issues!


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## EchelonSnow

Yeah, I get it - people SHOULD do the right thing. And I have no problem furthering my own solutions , if I think they are a better - or at least other - solution. That's how marketing works, pointing out what makes your things different, and possibly better.

In my defense industry work, we continually have to take into account when people DON'T do the right thing, and what will POSSIBLY happen if they don't. That's why I don't like to leave things up to the user, especially where safety is concerned, within reason. So I am not saying EST is BAD, at all. I am saying that I am trying to develop a method that achieves 3 things: 1) truly baseless design 2) micro-adjustability 3) binding choice without a boards' need for special adapters. I have my own ideas on how to do it without over-complication or developing a completely new board-binding interface. Who knows if it will succeed? For every product that gets made that works, there are 10 that don't. But to say I shouldn't even discuss it seems a bit Draconian .

"Hell, I rode a whole pow day with a 4x4 set up that I had left half screwed in from waxing. No issues!" - I added a clarification that explains the difference between unscrewed EST and unscrewed 4-3 hole discs above .


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## EchelonSnow

"No one in Mountain biking complains about the manufacturer if their bolts come loose"
This is true, but they do in kids bikes! This is why many bicycles implemented key-style washers on the front fork; in the case of a slipping/loose front-axle bolt, the front wheel remains on the fork even when Johnny pops a wheelie. That's sort of the crux of why I am trying something else; I like things that survive unexpected situations.

And actually (I worked in a bike shop for 4 years as a teen) It's also why on MTBs the front fork has a lip/recess that prevents wheel disengagement due to a loose or improperly adjusted quick-release . In general, if you know something CAN happen, and fixing it doesn't require a "worse than the problem solution (snowboard brakes, anyone?) then you should probably, as an engineer, do it.


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## AWNOW

After reading the thread, my input seems to be a bit off topic now, but here it goes anyways:

I try my hardest to purchase (snowboard) products built in the US or in my state (CO is lucky in this regard). I would rather pay a bit more and support the people who are trying to make money following their passions. I am sure the Taiwanese workers are great people, have good quality control and need the money. But between Taiwanese workers or USA workers/boarders, the Taiwanese lose out. Of course I have a handful of gear made overseas, but I still try to aim for American made.


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## david_z

AWNOW said:


> After reading the thread, my input seems to be a bit off topic now, but here it goes anyways:
> 
> I try my hardest to purchase (snowboard) products built in the US or in my state (CO is lucky in this regard). I would rather pay a bit more and support the people who are trying to make money following their passions. I am sure the Taiwanese workers are great people, have good quality control and need the money. But between Taiwanese workers or USA workers/boarders, the Taiwanese lose out. Of course I have a handful of gear made overseas, but I still try to aim for American made.


I understand and respect that sentiment, its just always seemed a little bit misguided to me because no matter what happens to that American factory worker (let's assume he loses his factory job because of outsourcing), his life is _still _ like infinitely better than those chinese workers who were forced in to the factory when the government plowed under their family farmland in order to make room for an Olympic soccer field or whatever else.


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## EchelonSnow

Yeah, Sorry for the DERAIL!!!

I think that your reason for buying USA is one of the better ones. Taiwanese and Chinese, and Austrian (remember they are "foreign" too  ) are usually really cool. I'll say this, though - there are more ways to be passionate than by riding. Rome boards are ,as of this writing, made in China at our same factory, Matrix. The owner of Matrix actually quit his job at another factory (probably many don't realize 'quitting' is something that Chinese workers can actually do), because that other factory sucked, and basically said "we don't need to innovate, we just need to copy the US". Well, the Matrix factory owner is PASSIONATE about good engineering, and followed that passion to instead make his own factory with R&D facilities, testing facilities, clean work environments, etc. He isn't much of a rider, but it's a bit like a joke my partner told me:

General to aero engineer: "We need a new wing design that can hold double the payload"
Aero Engineer: "Well, I don't know what a wing is, but we have this model of 3 million polygons that I think can pull that off!"


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## Nivek

EchelonSnow said:


> Re: channel hardware slipping: Btw, Echelon has a fix, and a binding, for this problem . We hope to preview at SIA, but it will be 2013-14 product . Also, our solution won't lock you into 'the ditch' .


You'll be at SIA this coming winter? Like Feb 2012 SIA? 

This binding you speak of interests me.


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## EchelonSnow

We'll be there! You'll get to shoot guns in our booth for fun and prizes  (Actually, Lasers from a replica gun, but whatever  )


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## ThunderChunky

604 said:


> Was Rome _ever_ made in Canada? Which factory? Option? Prior? I was always under the impression that Rome was made at Elan.


Not sure about the specifics, but they were originally made in Canada. I read an interview with the founders when they broke from Burton.


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## EchelonSnow

I think that a lot of 'made in north america' brands start that way because their initial volumes are low. When you and your partner are 19 years old, just happy to press your own 100-500 boards a year, it works fine... But once a company is interested in large numbers, it's really only something Austria and China do well and at a price consumers will buy.

I actually wrote twice to a CO OEM factory that makes boards. I couldn't get a call or writeback. And other USA factories I've seen either have poor quality, or are brand- limited and won't build OEM products. I'd love to move prod stateside for simple time and communications issues - I even looked into what a factory here in bear would run to set up. The answer - a lot. So, I'd have to spend all my money building the facilities, and would have nothing left for r&d, advertising, etc. That is not a recipe for success . Add in that Matrix has been great all-around, and I'm happy.


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## Sick-Pow

EchelonSnow said:


> I think that a lot of 'made in north america' brands start that way because their initial volumes are low. When you and your partner are 19 years old, just happy to press your own 100-500 boards a year, it works fine... But once a company is interested in large numbers, it's really only something Austria and China do well and at a price consumers will buy.
> 
> I actually wrote twice to a CO OEM factory that makes boards. I couldn't get a call or writeback. And other USA factories I've seen either have poor quality, or are brand- limited and won't build OEM products..



Ummmm. LIb tech?

It all comes down to what is important. To people only trying to make money, rather than have a business and employ people, it s simple greed. Don't kid yourself dood. Or, what, is that what you are doing? SOmehow justifying your decision to not have your own factory to press your generic designed and looking boards? Harsh, but true.


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## BurtonAvenger

Sick-Pow said:


> The channel never slipped. The OLD channel had some issues with the hardware, but the channel slipping was user error.


That's bullshit. I've had Burton even tell me that it can slip and that's why they changed hardware, then I witnessed the new hardware slip not only on myself but 2 of my friends. It's a system with flaws and even if you believe it is "user" error it can still have error on itself. I'm pretty sure I'm not a fucktard that doesn't know how to turn a screw driver and then grab the highback and slam the binding to see if it moves. And like the dude said when you have up to 6 inches of possible slip shit can get wonky.


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## david_z

Sick-Pow said:


> Ummmm. LIb tech?
> 
> It all comes down to what is important. To people only trying to make money, rather than have a business and employ people, it s simple greed. Don't kid yourself dood. Or, what, is that what you are doing? SOmehow justifying your decision to not have your own factory to press your generic designed and looking boards? Harsh, but true.


Again, it's kind of silly to lambaste "greed" when a company is providing (relatively) well-paying jobs for people who live on $2 and a cup of rice per day. No matter what happens, the out-of-work American factory worker still has infinitely better prospects for his future.


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## EchelonSnow

You seem to enjoy stating things that are 'true' merely because you think they are. Here's some news for you- a business has to make money to survive and grow. In return, this creates jobs. I'm going to go on a limb and state that the number of jobs you will create this year is zero.

Making money isn't 'greed' - it's business. Lib Tech makes a board that costs $2500. Do you think it costs $2500 to make? Lib tech entered the industry at a point when there was less competition, and greater demand. Their boards are also around $550 average. I suppose if you think that isn't motivated by a desire to make money, but some altruistic bullshit, then in the immortal words of steve perry 'don't stop believin''. 

I'd like my company to make money. If that makes me into a robber baron, so be it. I guess I'll let all my US based employees and subs know that instead of making money, 'I'll have a business and employ people' as you naively and ignorantly suggest. When you've tried to do it yourself, get back to me and let me know how that works for you. Protip: it won't.

Just so you also know, our boards were designed by me, an American , and Jason, an American, with the help of american artists, riders, importers, engineers (one of them a quadriplegic boarder/mx rider whose neck was broken in a moto accident), printers, raw material manufacturers from several nations, and were built on our own shapes and $100k of custom molds. So, until you actually have a clue, from now I'm going to guess you don't actually know what you are talking about and bid you good day. You don't seem interested in discussion or learning anything, just in seeming like you're full of knowledge and not 'it'. Maybe next year to placate you I'll build a board shaped like a tennis racquet or an IUD so it won't be 'generic looking'. Ill make it in a buddies garage by heating the mold with an environmentally friendly pit fire and compress the mold by driving the humvee on top of it.It won't ride worth shit, but that's ok, because 'americuh!'.


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## Nivek

^^LIKE^^

Right now I wish we had a "like post" button


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## Snowboard_Otaku

what ever he said... i approve


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## EchelonSnow

Appreciate the sentiment. I understand the frustration of the 'buy American/ Canadian' crowd, although I always notice the question rarely comes up when the boards are made in Austria. It's only when production is moved to the 'other' type of people that the shitstorm starts.

People yearn for the glory days of American manufacturing, and I get that too. Hell, if I could get a US factory that would make boards at even 25% more, I'd do it. Fact is that the actual cost is about 100% more. It's hard to make payroll with those numbers unless you started your factory a long time ago and slowly built your empire over the course of decades. An alternate route is to have immense money. I have good financials, but not the cheese to spread out a factory with a 5000, let alone 50k, unit capacity.

There's reality and wishful thinking. As someone with his own money on the line, I have to operate in reality, I'm sure that SP will interpret this as a self-delusion on my part. That's why I like evidence and numbers; unless the math is wrong it clarifies decision making. That leads to better products, growth, and yes - filthy, filthy money.

Modern business is multinational. Protectionist attitudes and patchouli won't help that.


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## EchelonSnow

Just to make sure Lib hadn't somehow made their boards cheaper, I checked MSRP; their cheapest adult board looks to be $450, which is $50 more than my most expensive model. Their kids board (a well made wood-core, sidewalled board) is $340. Our kids board is $190, for a - you guessed it - wood core, sidewalled board. Most go from ~560-680, which is in line with what markup would be on a $115 - 170 manufactured cost (time/materials). Keep in mind that by owning the factory, Lib gets their boards at the absolute best pricing possible - and they STILL average more than $150 more than many boards made through an OEM factory. I am unsure of Lib Tech's unit sales, so I am not sure exactly how many they are shipping yearly. I'd be surprised if it was more than 30k, but if anyone knows the real number it would be interesting info to know .

Mervyn is a cool company. I rode a Park Pickle for a season, and liked it OK, but it wasn't an amazing ride - just really good. I am not bashing them. I am simply using numbers to show that when you manu stateside, you have to pay higher prices. And overall, most people either don't care RE the made in the USA label, or they can't afford it even if they do. For those who can, vote with your dollars and enjoy your riding on the board you like!


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## idshred

word. some good discussion going on in here. Rome moved some of the production to playmaker. They have a website if anyone is curious to get a glipse into what they do. So IIRC they are producing boards at the elan factory or the playmaker factory in taiwan. I didn't know they were ever pressing boards in canada? Its only been a handful of years though that this kind of thing has interested me. 

chunkyromeloverthunder, Think back about what you learned about comparative advantage in your econ class and why that would lead to snowboard companies moving production overseas(or even from austria to asia). Taking international economics really opened my mind to why firms operate the way they do. I realized how ignorant most people are to the issues of why companies offshore. Its like burton shutting down the vermont factory. Its easy to say that jake burton must not care about american jobs, and he is only focused on making as much money as possible, and doesn't care about 'exploiting' chinese factory workers. What many people don't know is that burton lost money on every board they produced in that factory for years, and I read the other day in a thread on easy loungin that jake broke down and cried in front of his employees when he told them he was closing the factory. Not that I know the entire story either, but there is usually much more to why companies behave the way they do than what is easily obtainable on the surface.


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## EchelonSnow

Btw, for reasons I don't know Rome makes boards now at Matrix in china. They may make them elsewhere too, I just don't know.


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## BurtonAvenger

By snowboarders for snowboarders built by snowboarders who put the fun back in snowboarding by building for snowboarders who have fun snowboarding. WOO HOO! Money is the devil. 

For what it's worth Echelon right now is the only new brand that I'm honestly anxious to ride their decks.


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## ThunderChunky

I'm not saying that everyone should produce in America. It's not about surviving (for most) that moves them to other countries, it's about expanding and making more money. MOST companies can survive by making boards in the U.S they just aren't going to be even as close to successful as companies like Burton. Again this is the majority and in theory. There is obviously exceptions like Lib Tech and Signal. At this point I don't care, I'm just ready to ride..........In a FUCKING MONTH.


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## EchelonSnow

The funny thing is, I tried to produce here, but thee is only one OEM factory I could find here, and they must be too busy riding to give callbacks.

One other thing to consider on why people start off overseas- or at least, why *we* did. You never know how successful or unsuccessful you'll be. If you are very successful, and let's say you built your small factory capable of 1500 units a year (lets say it's 3 presses or so). Then, it turns out you are a smash hit. Suddenly, you need to be able to fill 15,000, or 10 times the capacity.

Well, unless you have a metric ton of jacksons, you are royally screwed. Your capacity is ten times under your need, and so now you need 27 more presses, space for them, more molds, raw materials, etc. Then, what most people don't get who aren't in the industry on the manu side is shops buying boards aren't like customers at a store. You take orders, which are actually legal contracts to buy X units at Y price. But the Manu won't see that money for 6 months or more after the orders are placed. A company has to 'finance production', which means (on 15k boards) is maybe 1-1.5mm dollars, and float that money for months. Except surprise, you spent your money on presses instead. Or, the flip is you didn't and you will ship late, incomplete, or never. Any of the above scenarios just killed your company.

Selecting a high-quality, high capacity OEM factory means that whether it is 5 or 50k units, all you have to worry about is prod financing, for which there are lots of methods to get it. In our case, we self-finance, because screw debt. But many wouldn't have that luxury- they would either experience slow growth, turning down orders because they can't tool up fast enough due to time and/or money.

That is itself a major issue; the time. Setting up facilities is costly, but not just in cash but in time. You must locate or build property, find or train workers, etc to fill your newfound demand hotness. Orders are made usually between february and April; about 80% of product for next season will be bought first quarter of 2012.

Orders have to be filled by the end of summer or early fall. Your new company has to now build a factory, hire and train skilled workers, and build 15000 boards in 5 months..... Hahahahahahaha! No.

But wait! Another snag- you realize that you have pressed and boards are coming out badly for some reason; you've now lost time & lots of money. Now, if the OEM factory was pressing them- congrats, NOT YOUR PROBLEM! they have to remake them, at their cost. But because americuh, you are now short on time, money, and more. You'll be delivering late, and even when you do you'll make near zero. Your company is doomed. You'll soon be introducing your new employees to unemployment. You also have a huge capital investment that you have to hope someone will buy -good luck!

*you have died of dysentery. Thanks for playing!'*


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## ThunderChunky

If making boards in America was impossible and impossible to be very successful then companies like Signal, Lib Tech, and Never Summer wouldn't exist. Never said it was easy, that's why I prefer it. The either got lucky and it worked out here or they risked it all to stay here. My point is that it is definitely possible to stay here, you may not expand rapidly. I would honestly be happier paying more for a board that is worse than another company's board, but is still good, than buying from another company that is cheaper and is full of douchebags and has the corporation mindset. 

Like I said before though. I'm not completely ruling out oversea companies, I'll definitely still buy Rome. Mainly because they are an amazing company that manages to produce good boards, not the best. I had broken high backs because the lift caught em and Rome overnight express shipped me brand spankin new 2012 high backs for my 2009 Shift bindings. They also were the only company to send me stickers for free by just shooting them an email. They also have never taken longer than a day to get back to me. That's half the reason I buy their boards, granted I wouldn't buy them if they were complete shit. And luckily they are much better than just above pure shit.


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## EchelonSnow

" My point is that it is definitely possible to stay here, you may not expand rapidly."

Funny, that was my point too! Although subsidizing some company's lifestyle for sub-par product seems like an odd buyer choice, I suppose people can do what they want with their own money. I'd much rather spend money on a high quality product built by people who had business sense and were simultaneously not jerks... Like Rome, or Echelon, or others.

Agreed that Rome makes some solid boards, or rather designs them and has them manu'd by Matrix.


----------



## EchelonSnow

By the way, we send stickers too - and we don't charge .

The reason that Rome does that stuff is that is what any serious company that gives a shit about their customers does - you have to understand that they are the reason you'll be successful, because they spend hard-earned money on your products.

" They either got lucky and it worked out here or they risked it all to stay here."

It wasn't luck, it was them having early-mover advantage, good timing, and good marketing and products. They went after a then-niche market and serviced it well among few competitors, and that allowed them to build reserves required to deal with growth. Success can mean many things; Signal is successful in bro-ness and a fun work environment, but I am unsure of their numbers. NS and Mervyn have been around for a LONG time (77 in mervs case). The rules and conditions that saw to their initial success no longer apply. Were they to start today, I suspect they'd have a hard time at it.

Lastly, all successful (meaning, making money and staying in and growing business) have a corporation mindset. The rest is marketing. It's ok to have fun riding AND not be bad at business. It doesn't make them evil, but it does make them willing to do what it takes. I respected Jake for having the balls to shut down an unprofitable part of the business; it protects the jobs of the rest of the thousands of employees in other roles. I do hope that the factory staff was retrained and moved into other work at Burton, because losing talented people SUCKS.


----------



## ThunderChunky

Yea, I know any sensible person trying to run a business would chose a guaranteed profit over a small chance of success for a crazy few customers. Yah, luckily Rome is both of what I want, Genuine and quality product.


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## 2813308004

This is an insane discussion of a microcosmic buying situation in the face of huge . I have an american suit, it's an off the rack Hickey Freeman, it's $1200. I have several all american outfits, one for example consists of alden 405 boots ($450), Bills Khaki's pants ($120), Wiley Horse Pick Belt ($175), Gitman Vintage Shirt ($200), with Woolrich Socks ($20) and Velva-Sheen shirts (~$60–70 for a 2 pack). The point I'm trying to make is that if you're committed to mercantilist policy, you're fooling yourself—it's f***ing impossible in this day and age without being super rich.

I understand people think that it's a quasi-ethical decision to buy domestic but it's clear it's mainly to prevent massive cognitive dissonance. Vote with the political process not with consumption.


----------



## ThunderChunky

Someone should make a thread that shows where each company produces. I kinda want to know, it would be nice to gather all that info in one place. Most I can't find anyway.


----------



## EchelonSnow

ThunderChunky said:


> At this point I don't care, I'm just ready to ride..........In a FUCKING MONTH.


Also, this .


----------



## ThunderChunky

it sucks in NY.


----------



## EchelonSnow

Many companies won't man up and tell, that's why . They want to obscure it. I have no problem being honest about it. I'm in the biz to do something I love and provide great products at a decent price, both to me and my customers. ATM, that's at Matrix.

You could probably say USA :mervin, NS, signal, smokin, & probably various brands you probably don't want to touch.
All others: Playmaker Taiwan, Matrix or SBF China, Élan Austria.


----------



## EchelonSnow

Re:sux NY; I grew up in Jersey- feel you.


----------



## EchelonSnow

User 281330Xxxx: did you MEAN to have a Houston number as your username? That's ballsy!


----------



## BurtonAvenger

ThunderChunky said:


> If making boards in America was impossible and impossible to be very successful then companies like Signal, Lib Tech, and Never Summer wouldn't exist. Never said it was easy, that's why I prefer it. The either got lucky and it worked out here or they risked it all to stay here. My point is that it is definitely possible to stay here, you may not expand rapidly. I would honestly be happier paying more for a board that is worse than another company's board, but is still good, than buying from another company that is cheaper and is full of douchebags and has the corporation mindset.


Echelon touched on this. Here's the thing when you have brands like Never Summer and Mervin that have had decades to grow it works. Signals success I attribute to when they were the Supernatural brand under Mervin and had 300% growth in Korea for I believe it was 3 years that's where they brand at the time was established. When Quik pulled the plug and they started Signal they had that distribution network in Korea and Asia which helped them stay afloat over other brands. In the U.S. Signal isn't even a top 10 brand for sales I'd say they might be lucky and be a top 20 brand which is respectable but on the global scale nothing special. 

I don't know why you would pay more for a sub par product that makes no sense to me. I'm all for snowboarding being affordable to people. 

I know a lot of people at a lot of different brands and there's both great and shitty people there. It's just how it is, granted this industry is in a down size right now and a lot of the shitty people are being cut far more than the great people. What the snowboard industry needs is people that snowboard but also understand business, not fucking kooks that just didn't want to work in a industry that they thought would be fun because they didn't want to work as a 9 to 5 cubicle jockey. 

One of the other thing with the snowboard industry is there's people running companies that shouldn't be. They might be a great engineer or marketing person or team manager etc. etc. But they are not great business people. If you saw on average the emails I deal with on a daily basis you would cringe at some of the shit I have to put up with to get shit to happen for you guys on my site. But that just goes back to good people and shitty people which you have in any industry. 



ThunderChunky said:


> Like I said before though. I'm not completely ruling out oversea companies, I'll definitely still buy Rome. Mainly because they are an amazing company that manages to produce good boards, not the best. I had broken high backs because the lift caught em and Rome overnight express shipped me brand spankin new 2012 high backs for my 2009 Shift bindings. They also were the only company to send me stickers for free by just shooting them an email. They also have never taken longer than a day to get back to me. That's half the reason I buy their boards, granted I wouldn't buy them if they were complete shit. And luckily they are much better than just above pure shit.


I've watched Rome grow for the last decade I remember when they first launched and I was working for a local shop that carried them. That company understood customer service and still does to this day. They've embraced social media on all levels from being on here to twitter to facebook to just having someone that answers your emails to them all day every day even if he is hungover.

And just for the sake of fucking with people here we go:

USA: 
Never Summer: Denver Colorado Also makes Status Snowboards
Mervin: Lib, Gnu, Some Roxy
Unity: Silverthorne Colorado
Signal: LA also make Rockstar "promo not what Chaz rides" and Volcom
Monson: Humanity, Nope, Nieva, Crispy Whips, GME, Legend, Sp3i, and a whole slew of other brands you do not give a shit about
Sentury: Reno also makes NO Way! and Chas Guldemonds Rockstar boards
Rev Manufacturing: Utah probably makes some other brands you've never heard of and a few prototypes for others I think Savai snowboards is from there as well as Blank snowboards
Smokin: Sparks NV made some promotional Betty Rides boards at one point
MarHar: Michigan
Prospect: Partly made by Monson partly by their press they bought from Monson in Wisconsin
Nightmare Development: Silverthorne CO with their own press not made by Unity
Compatriot: Made somewhere in CO I'm thinking Donek
Donek: Denver they also make mono skis I mean carving boards
Homewood Snowboards: Help from Steve Hayes heard now Ryan Monson is helping them from Bradford PA
OZ Snowboards: Englewood or Evergreen Colorado or some shit
Blak Sheep Snowboards: Dirty Jerz
Rhythm Snowboards: Somewhere in New England I think Maine or Mass or NH I'm brain farting here
Bean Snowboards: Boston
Chimera: Splitboards
Tyrant Snowboards: If I haven't put them out of business
Shotgun Snowboards: If they haven't put themselves out of business
Epix Snowboards: Michigan or somewhere in the midwest

Canada:
Prior
Class 5
Republic


GST:
Any board that has structurn is a dead give away of this.
Niche
Step Child?
Santa Cruz?
DC

Elan:
Capita
Higher end Rome I think the swallow tails and shit are made there
Burton
Nitro
Automaton
Academy
Salomon?
Head
Palmer
Endeavor
Elan
Artec


Nidecker:
Nidecker
Jones
Special Projects: I.E. Aunti Autti's boards AFM's Boards
Yes
Burton

Spain:
Rossignol? Not sure if they're still made there

The Orient:
Lamar
Echelon
Omatic
Some Rome
Monument
Burton
Technine
K2
Ride
Sims
Ellis
5150
Morrow
Flow
Betty Rides

I think I covered just about everything I can off the top of my head. I just woke up and haven't had my morning pee or punched a baby in the face so I'm a bit foggy.


----------



## EchelonSnow

Wow, what a list; you can add nidecker and Santa cruz to the list that make at least some of their product at Matrix; in addition to Rome I saw their equipment there under construction as well. In fact, their reps just returned from the factory.


----------



## david_z

EPIX is also pressing in Michigan. 

MAD Snowboards somewhere in Ontario I think is also making their own.


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## ThunderChunky

Thanks, what are those countries though. I don't know where those places are or even what they stand for.


----------



## NStrafach

NJtuna said:


> In a sweatshop = more profit! Be proud, you helped a kid earn a nickle! :laugh: jk


:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:


----------



## EchelonSnow

People take something that happens in some industries and apply it to all of them. If anyone has last month's TWS japan, there's an entire three page article on the Matrix factory, with step by step photos. With rhe workers showing off their handiwork with genuine smiles. Believe it or not, some people can enjoy making something of quality, just for the satisfaction of doing something right. I met these *adults* while there, and they were cool, hardworking, but well-treated folks.

But the facts don't matter, because it provides a convenient marketing tool for domestic manufacturers to justify $600-700 snowboards. "Think of the children!" Well, I can say with certainty the child workers in my factory looked to be a) all between 25-50 b) smiling most of the time.

The child paid pennies a day myth is complete bullshit (in the snowboard industry, at least.) People continuing the myth either know it's false but have a monetary interest in making you feel guilty, or are merely ignorant of reality because they get their news through a 20-year-past filter.

There are many reasons domestic production is cool. One, like signal, you get to have fun making golf course and boombox boards. Two, you can proto faster, and, over time, cheaper. Three, you don't have the distance, culture, and time differences that go away. 

The child with hook hands, fed gruel, isnt one of the reasons.


----------



## Sick-Pow

We did get off track and I doubt any of us want to trash anyone else in snowboarding, I know I am passionate and I want to be respectful even if I am wrong or not informed.

I think it is OK to talk big concepts, and demand of ourselves what we like to see in others in business ethics. Some companies, whom employ and support the local economy need our support too. Never Summer, Venture, Unity, along with a select few companies are making a competitive high end boutique product made here in the USA by local craftsman. Remember shop class dudes?


For inventors and true pioneers of snow engineering, it seems these icons in snowboard design began in the garage then moved to local production. Only recently I have noticed have companies sprung up designing boards based off a template.


----------



## EchelonSnow

"Some companies, whom employ and support the local economy"

All businesses do this, unless they literally offshore EVERYTHING. In fact, the bigger the business, the more they do this. I know of no snowboard company that offshores things like design, art, administration, legal, sales, advertising & marketing, community outreach, engineering, etc. These jobs are just as important to the people that hold them as the jobs for the shop class dudes.

"Only recently I have noticed have companies sprung up designing boards based off a template."

Unless you'd like to retract the earlier statement re: "generic board" I think this might be a mild swing at my company. To clarify in case it is, the co-designer of my boards has been in the industry 20 years, and designed many of Forum's earlier products, Joyrides, Stepchilds, and others. If our boards are "generic looking" then it is partially because he helped make the look and designs that you consider "generic" in the first place.

In case it isn't, anyone that isn't working towards something new will eventually die off anyway, so who cares if they make stuff based on a template? People that like quality will seek it out, and those who don't care never will. It's a problem that solves itself.

In any case, I think that I've said what I need to say on this topic. I hope that, even if my reply was harsh (not that the previous accusations didn't deserve them) that the comments were useful in some fashion.


----------



## Sudden_Death

EchelonSnow said:


> People take something that happens in some industries and apply it to all of them. If anyone has last month's TWS japan, there's an entire three page article on the Matrix factory, with step by step photos. With rhe workers showing off their handiwork with genuine smiles. Believe it or not, some people can enjoy making something of quality, just for the satisfaction of doing something right. I met these *adults* while there, and they were cool, hardworking, but well-treated folks.
> 
> But the facts don't matter, because it provides a convenient marketing tool for domestic manufacturers to justify $600-700 snowboards. "Think of the children!" Well, I can say with certainty the child workers in my factory looked to be a) all between 25-50 b) smiling most of the time.
> 
> The child paid pennies a day myth is complete bullshit (in the snowboard industry, at least.) People continuing the myth either know it's false but have a monetary interest in making you feel guilty, or are merely ignorant of reality because they get their news through a 20-year-past filter.
> 
> There are many reasons domestic production is cool. One, like signal, you get to have fun making golf course and boombox boards. Two, you can proto faster, and, over time, cheaper. Three, you don't have the distance, culture, and time differences that go away.
> 
> The child with hook hands, fed gruel, isn't one of the reasons.


Not only are the conditions ever hardly as bad as made out to be but people tend to forget that the $2.00 a day there can be equivalent to the $10- $15/hour a press operator makes here as far as living standard goes. As the joke goes "What do Chinese peasants call the guy making $2 a day in a factory? That rich bastard."


----------



## BurtonAvenger

If you're a brand that doesn't have a engineer/designer working for you then more than likely you're picking your shapes, lay up, sizes, side cuts, etc. etc. from a catalog. I know Jason Echelons designer dude has designed countless boards that I have been in love with. It's probably a close tie between him and Capita's Sean Tedore on who I prefer more to have design the boards I ride. 

I know a shit ton of brands that are just picking from catalogs and making boards and people are eating up their decks thinking they're so fucking unique. Actually you want a solid read on the subject I suggest this for everyone illicit snowboarding: 11 Brands, 1 Snowboard (and a $270 price difference) that should teach you a thing or two about generic boards.


----------



## EchelonSnow

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH:

From GME:
_"Our boards are constructed from scratch"_
---No shit? Mine are sent through the portal off the game grid and straight into reality. To think, someone built a board by taking component parts and CONSTRUCTING them!!! CALL THE DOD, I NEED TO GET THEM ONTO THIS "MANUFACTURING" TRAIN!

Best Summation ever:


> "Within the snowboarding world it's natural for people to be averse to handing their money over to the bigger companies that are owned by faceless corporations, which is why these "played out pitches" work. The danger is that if you go to the other extreme of the scale and buy from very small brands you could just be buying the sort of bullshit these guys are selling. There are good small brands out there so make sure if you do want to invest in a brand that is "by riders, for riders" or "made in the USA" or “putting the fun back into snowboarding” or any other generic pitch, that they are transparent about who they are and what they are selling you."


----------



## BurtonAvenger

I think at last count I picked out 26 brands that are Monsoned cookie cutter shapes. Cool you wanted to start a snowboard company too bad you're unoriginal and don't know shit about snowboarding or the industry. Props to any brand that drops 100k on a new mold I tip my hat to them.


----------



## Sick-Pow

EchelonSnow said:


> "Some companies, whom employ and support the local economy"
> 
> All businesses do this, unless they literally offshore EVERYTHING. In fact, the bigger the business, the more they do this. I know of no snowboard company that offshores things like design, art, administration, legal, sales, advertising & marketing, community outreach, engineering, etc. These jobs are just as important to the people that hold them as the jobs for the shop class dudes.
> 
> "Only recently I have noticed have companies sprung up designing boards based off a template."
> 
> Unless you'd like to retract the earlier statement re: "generic board" I think this might be a mild swing at my company. To clarify in case it is, the co-designer of my boards has been in the industry 20 years, and designed many of Forum's earlier products, Joyrides, Stepchilds, and others. If our boards are "generic looking" then it is partially because he helped make the look and designs that you consider "generic" in the first place.
> 
> In case it isn't, anyone that isn't working towards something new will eventually die off anyway, so who cares if they make stuff based on a template? People that like quality will seek it out, and those who don't care never will. It's a problem that solves itself.
> 
> In any case, I think that I've said what I need to say on this topic. I hope that, even if my reply was harsh (not that the previous accusations didn't deserve them) that the comments were useful in some fashion.


I don't recall any generic board statement made towards your boards, if I did it was more to do with the generic state of many brands in general made in China, not yours in particular. So much is good in tech today, it comes down to what sets you apart as a builder.

I totally agree with the highlight above, though I think you are only somewhat on the defensive just because it is hard to agree with out-sourcing for any business. We are just jockeying on the internet, and you, a small business owner are making real decisions.


----------



## EchelonSnow

"Don't kid yourself dood. Or, what, is that what you are doing? SOmehow justifying your decision to not have your own factory to press your generic designed and looking boards? Harsh, but true."

Pretty much looks like what you were doing, but I guess I'll grant the "backsies" on that post .


----------



## CheeseForSteeze

I thought they were made in Rome?


----------



## Sick-Pow

BTW, how did Echelon get a Patent for a "Tri-Radial SideCut"? Looks like a bi Radial sidecut is patented too.

I see you got Omatic's True 3D concave base like a Battaleon or scoop. Pretty sick park lineup. Fruit booters need not apply.

IMO Sintered base cannot be a feature either, it is either extruded or sintered. Lib doing the whole sintered+extruded thing is also tiresome. Just be like Capita and tell it like it is, again IMO.


----------



## EchelonSnow

Well, True3d isn't really like either of those - in function it is, but in construction it isn't...

Sintruded is a TM term for a specific extruded base manufactured by IMS Kunststoff. You are correct that the base material is essentially extruded; it just happens to be a brand-name, good-quality extruded base that in our experience does a bit better on wax absorption (not anywhere near a true sintered base, but better than cheaper extrudeds). It's also pretty tough, which is what you need mostly on a jib deck anyway.

As for the park side, I'm kinda park heavy mostly because I grew up in skating, which influenced my riding, which influenced the sort of boards I wanted to make. I don't know the pow-pow as well, which is why I wanted to ramp up and get some good BC and big mountain guys on the team before I moved into that too much.

"BTW, how did Echelon get a Patent for a "Tri-Radial SideCut"? Looks like a bi Radial sidecut is patented too."

LOL, thanks for catching that, actually!!! That's the prob with being overtasked! Some of our early marketing copy on the site was placeholder copy, which was taken directly from Omatic's site (since Jason was helping design, and we brought single, dual, tri-rads in from his boards). I rewrote most of their tech talk to try to explain not just what, but why, we do certain things with lingo more meaningful than "MORE pop!!!!") Well, it looks like that's a part I haven't re-written (I've gotten to more of it, and tried to reduce some of the overly tech descriptions, like "Non-Crimping High Modulus Carbon strands fused and stitched together in the 0 degree direction with the fibreglass composite strands.", etc... ") But I'm the copywriter and a hndred other hats, and it's def a slow-process . I am fairly sure you can't patent different radii, any more than Gillette can patent Mach18 18-razor technology.


Wait - mind telling me where you saw the patented thing? I just looked at the PO files for TriRadial, and it says (on my site): 

Our TriRadial™ sidecuts are designed by blending three radii over the length of the edge. The radii are positioned slightly back allowing you to balance yourself while launching big airs.

and for bi: Our DualRadial™ sidecut design incorporates and blends two radii for quick, smooth, arcing turns. Edge-contact points at the tip and tail are decreased, transferring the energy to the middle of the board making it less catchy and providing instant response.


----------



## EchelonSnow

CheeseForSteeze said:


> I thought they were made in Rome?


New "CanalTech" construction, LOL.

Edit:
I shouldn't type late night , thats Venice. How about "POPetech" pop-improvement technology?


----------



## Sick-Pow

EchelonSnow said:


> Well, True3d isn't really like either of those - in function it is, but in construction it isn't...
> 
> As for the park side, I'm kinda park heavy mostly because I grew up in skating, which influenced my riding, which influenced the sort of boards I wanted to make. I don't know the pow-pow as well, which is why I wanted to ramp up and get some good BC and big mountain guys on the team before I moved into that too much.


I am totally still curious how you acquired patents for Bi-radial and tri-radial side cuts...pretty incredible. 

I grew up skateboarding too. Flat with early rise seems very popular for park.


----------



## EchelonSnow

Sick-Pow said:


> I am totally still curious how you acquired patents for Bi-radial and tri-radial side cuts...pretty incredible.
> 
> I grew up skateboarding too. Flat with early rise seems very popular for park.


No, look at my edit above . If I or Jason had patents on it, we wouldn't need to make boards to make money !


----------



## EchelonSnow

Just for fun, I checked Monson's website for the tech section, and there are some frankly candid statements there:

The edges:
Rockwell hardened steel, all companies use the same two vendors! So the bottom line is everyone uses good edges and so do we. 

Modern snowboard resin systems are all pretty good these days so we can't harp that our is a gazillion times better than everyone else's,

----Gotta say that was a surprise!


----------



## romesaz

BurtonAvenger said:


> ....
> 
> And just for the sake of fucking with people here we go:
> 
> USA:
> Never Summer: Denver Colorado Also makes Status Snowboards
> Mervin: Lib, Gnu, Some Roxy
> Unity: Silverthorne Colorado
> Signal: LA also make Rockstar "promo not what Chaz rides" and Volcom
> Monson: Humanity, Nope, Nieva, Crispy Whips, GME, Legend, Sp3i, and a whole slew of other brands you do not give a shit about
> Sentury: Reno also makes NO Way! and Chas Guldemonds Rockstar boards
> Rev Manufacturing: Utah probably makes some other brands you've never heard of and a few prototypes for others I think Savai snowboards is from there as well as Blank snowboards
> Smokin: Sparks NV made some promotional Betty Rides boards at one point
> MarHar: Michigan
> Prospect: Partly made by Monson partly by their press they bought from Monson in Wisconsin
> Nightmare Development: Silverthorne CO with their own press not made by Unity
> Compatriot: Made somewhere in CO I'm thinking Donek
> Donek: Denver they also make mono skis I mean carving boards
> Homewood Snowboards: Help from Steve Hayes heard now Ryan Monson is helping them from Bradford PA
> OZ Snowboards: Englewood or Evergreen Colorado or some shit
> Blak Sheep Snowboards: Dirty Jerz
> Rhythm Snowboards: Somewhere in New England I think Maine or Mass or NH I'm brain farting here
> Bean Snowboards: Boston
> Chimera: Splitboards
> Tyrant Snowboards: If I haven't put them out of business
> Shotgun Snowboards: If they haven't put themselves out of business
> Epix Snowboards: Michigan or somewhere in the midwest
> 
> Canada:
> Prior
> Class 5
> Republic
> 
> 
> GST:
> Any board that has structurn is a dead give away of this.
> Niche
> Step Child?
> Santa Cruz?
> DC
> 
> Elan:
> Capita
> Higher end Rome I think the swallow tails and shit are made there
> Burton
> Nitro
> Automaton
> Academy
> Salomon?
> Head
> Palmer
> Endeavor
> Elan
> Artec
> 
> 
> Nidecker:
> Nidecker
> Jones
> Special Projects: I.E. Aunti Autti's boards AFM's Boards
> Yes
> Burton
> 
> Spain:
> Rossignol? Not sure if they're still made there
> 
> The Orient:
> Lamar
> Echelon
> Omatic
> Some Rome
> Monument
> Burton
> Technine
> K2
> Ride
> Sims
> Ellis
> 5150
> Morrow
> Flow
> Betty Rides
> 
> I think I covered just about everything I can off the top of my head. I just woke up and haven't had my morning pee or punched a baby in the face so I'm a bit foggy.



To add to that: 
I believe my 2011 Arbor Coda is made in Austria.
Forum, at least older decks (06/07 Youngblood) was also Austria.
Probably at the Elan plant?

With the above in mind:
Those in the industry (BA, Echelon), do you guys know if Arbor uses same tech as other companies? Or is it their own R&D? I saw an interview on Angry Boarder with'em, and it seemed like a bit of handwaving.
I'm really excited to ride my coda. I found new old stock this year and can't wait. But I'm just wondering how much of what their preach is actually true and not just BS.

Also, with regards to Lib Tech and Signal being able to manufacture in the states: Well, with giant companies like Quicksilver backing you, I think they can afford it. Also, seeing as Signal was at one point part of Mervin, I would same the same applies (at least in terms of having built a customer base).
Not sure how NS can afford to do the same. I'm not sure if they have a parent company, but would be interesting.

To add to the whole debacle about orient manufacturing, and this will probably get some fires started (I apologize):
In my opinion, quality would be competitive, if not better coming from Asia, assuming same quality controls. The reason I say that is my poor opinion of most north american unions. Specifically: There isn't much incentive for a factory worker here to do work 100% perfectly when he/she knows that his/her ass will be protected by the union.
Whereas in Asia, there's a lot more on the line, so many mistakes can't be made, otherwise someone will replace you.

Anyways, flame away. I'm hoping that I'm wrong, and am looking forward to be proven as such.


----------



## EchelonSnow

You aren't completely wrong or right. NS has amazingly good quality, but I would put Matrix's quality up against pretty much any other factory out there. This goes to the bro vs. Factory worker thing that BA mentions (correctly) all the time. If you have properly motivated staff that is well trained and doesn't rush their work, then it makes zero difference in reality if the person rides or not. What matters 1) are they motivated to do things right by their nature? 2) are they detail oriented? 3) does management make quality a priority over numbers? 4) are the designers who put together the instructions competent?

If you get the culture of quality right, then the rest takes care of itself. 

As for how NS does it, I think that it was an ability to undertake (and being ok with) slower growth over the course of decades.

Arbor isn't doing off-the-shelf dev, if that is what you are wondering, but a lot of what is in sb Manu is standard. Read the Arbor site re 'the system', then check out libs magnetraction, then burtons fronstbite edges... Seem familiar? Thats why most sb tech seems the same. It is because it is . Every company tries to improve on the last idea that was good, to make it better, and so on. Since everyone rides a bit differently, has different bodies, and likes different images that they connect with, you end with an abundance of brands. Most successful companies have at least one 'hook' that differentiates them from others, technically and on the branding side.

Often factories (good ones) do their own R&D, especially when considering new materials. They then offer that tech to their client brands. Other tech (for example our light3d and true3d base lathing)- is exclusive to specific brands and internally developed.


----------



## Sick-Pow

Concave bases are not "exclusive" to anyone. A label's name might be, but a concave base is not patentable. It might seem that way as you bought the patent from Omatic.


----------



## Cr0_Reps_Smit

Sick-Pow said:


> Concave bases are not "exclusive" to anyone. A label's name might be, but a concave base is not patentable. It might seem that way as you bought the patent from Omatic.


im pretty sure hes talking about the process that they go through to make it concave being exclusive, not the actual shape


----------



## Sick-Pow

Cr0_Reps_Smit said:


> im pretty sure hes talking about the process that they go through to make it concave being exclusive, not the actual shape


There you go. Names and smoke screens over function.


----------



## david_z

Sick-Pow said:


> There you go. Names and smoke screens over function.


Not a valid conclusion based on available evidence/arguments/premises.


----------



## EchelonSnow

Do you know what a patent is? Do you know what it represents? Do you know how to go about getting them?

The tooling and machinery used to make concave bases OUR WAY, is very much exclusive. In the same way, the way Bataleon does it is EXCLUSIVE to them. Exclusive does not mean patented. Like Reps_Smit mentioned (correctly) the PROCESS and DESIGN can be patented. Exclusive means that the factory has the molds, tooling, and processes under a legal agreement to not use those with other brands that might wish to, without a contract or licensing agreement from the original developer (In this case, PRJCT). It is different from a patent. I suspect that you believe that a TM and a patent (and hell, maybe even a copyright) are the same, so you should go ahead and do a modicum of reading on Wikipedia (to save face) before you stick your oversized boot in your mouth again. You're woefully uninformed and frankly out of your league in discussion about this.


"A label's name might be, but a concave base is not patentable."

LOL!!!! So that's it! You think a trademark is the same as a patent!!!!!! Holy hell, man. Seriously, READ MOR. Are you 16 or under? If so, I give you a free pass, otherwise, you really need to ride less and learn more before coming in here insulting people.

EDIT:
Here, I'll actually try to help you here (although I can't really understand why; I suppose I just hate ignorance): While Hughes aircraft and Sikorsky cannot patent the concept of a "helicopter" they can patent ways to MAKE helicopters and the PARTS used to make them. Thusly, Hughes and Sikorsky each hold many, many patents, that are both PATENTED to them, and in most cases EXCLUSIVE to them (Either because of a refusal to license it or because it was not patented but is a Trade Secret). This is why the formula for Coke is EXCLUSIVE to Coke, but not patented - Coke guards their "Secret Formula because in order to gain patent protection you have to disclose the method used to make the thing you want to patent. Otherwise, how could the patent officers judge whether your process is unique or significantly different than other products or processes?

Trademarks are just that - a trade name used to identify a product, brand, or feature. It is the "Mark" used in "Trade", and to use a TM all you need to do is offer a product for sale under a specific name and/or image. That is literally all that you need to do. Just use the name in trade. This does not offer you much protection though by law, and if another company has been in the trade longer, and there is a potential for confusion in the marketplace, then you might lose your whole right to use the mark. It can ALSO be lost if you have a TM and fail to enforce it, which is why on Adobe's website you can find a fun article asking people to stop saying "photoshopped" and instead use the unweildy phrase "Manipulated using Adobe's Photoshop software". It's also why you see "facial tissue" and not "Kleenex".

This is also why Arbor chose to name their magnetraction-like design as "The System" rather than "Mangetraction Light" or "FrostyBiter Edges".

In order to get REGISTERED TRADEMARKS, you must file a legal claim to the name with the USPTO (US Patent and Trademarks Office) who will investigate your trademark claim and make a decision usually in 8-12 months. At that point, another company that has been using the mark is more or less SOL because now you own the LEGAL rights to that name, as recognized by the USPTO. Even if they had been using the name before, their failure to file a legal app for the name, while YOU did, and their failure to notice that you were doing so (there is a "public comments" period wherin the company could make a claim they were the rightful owners, leading to the USPTO to reject the Registered claim). It means they lost out, and now the REGISTERED owner could, if they wished, use the new registered status in offensive legal actions.

You're welcome.


----------



## Sick-Pow

david_z said:


> Not a valid conclusion based on available evidence/arguments/premises.



Well snowboard companies trademarking a "name" (frostbite edges, V rocker, true 3D, the list is long and with lots of smoke) a generic function of design (camber, rocker, concave, reverse sidecut, variable sidecut ) does have major premise, but that does not stop us from calling it out.


----------



## david_z

see above re: patent vs. trademark.


----------



## Sick-Pow

david_z said:


> see above re: patent vs. trademark.




Well, snowboard companies Trademarking a "name" (frostbite edges, V rocker, true 3D, the list is long and with lots of smoke) a generic function of design (camber, rocker, concave, reverse sidecut, variable sidecut ) does have major premise, but that does not stop us from calling it out. How these things work, is what's important. 

I think it would be way cool to just say, "we make these boards concave and here is why ours works so well", rather than, "our shit is trademarked and patented, and THAT is why it works so well".


----------



## EchelonSnow

"I think it would be way cool to just say, "

You really don't get how marketing works, do you? Additionally, whether you like it or not, your method is NOT sufficient. Here's why: True3D and Triple-Base Tech are DIFFERENT. They yield different feels, the topsheets end up different, the construction method does different things to the board - and so, if you say "concave" that does not impart enough information. CONCAVE HOW?

You probably aren't old enough to remember, but in skating their was a TM'd name for a concave called "Tub Tech". It was very useful to me, because I HATED deep concave and still do. Now, ALL skateboards (for street and ramp) have concave. But to the kid looking for, or looking to avoid, the deepest concave, "TUB TECH" was VERY VERY useful as a "smoke and mirrors" name.

Also, the bases are convex,, and (in Bataleon's and Burton's case) the topsheets are concave, while Omatic and BS/True3D is flat on top. But I'll let that slide too because I am a magnanimous guy :/ .


"but that does not stop us from calling it out."
It doesn't stop you. It stops lots of others who realize that they are not one and the same. Similar performance != the same performance. This is why things have different trade names, because they are SYMBOLOGY for a specific set of performance, manufacturing, and various other characteristics. What, when you ask for Sweet n Low do you want people to ask for "C^7H^5NO^3S instead? Jesus, your world would SUCK.


----------



## ThunderChunky

:dunno: Soooooooooooo out of my knowledge ability right now. :laugh:


----------



## Sick-Pow

EchelonSnow said:


> Do you know what a patent is? Do you know what it represents? Do you know how to go about getting them?
> 
> The tooling and machinery used to make concave bases OUR WAY, is very much exclusive. In the same way, the way Bataleon does it is EXCLUSIVE to them. Exclusive does not mean patented. Like Reps_Smit mentioned (correctly) the PROCESS and DESIGN can be patented. Exclusive means that the factory has the molds, tooling, and processes under a legal agreement to not use those with other brands that might wish to, without a contract or licensing agreement from the original developer (In this case, PRJCT). It is different from a patent. I suspect that you believe that a TM and a patent (and hell, maybe even a copyright) are the same, so you should go ahead and do a modicum of reading on Wikipedia (to save face) before you stick your oversized boot in your mouth again. You're woefully uninformed and frankly out of your league in discussion about this.
> 
> 
> "A label's name might be, but a concave base is not patentable."
> 
> LOL!!!! So that's it! You think a trademark is the same as a patent!!!!!! Holy hell, man. Seriously, READ MOR. Are you 16 or under? If so, I give you a free pass, otherwise, you really need to ride less and learn more before coming in here insulting people.
> 
> EDIT:
> Here, I'll actually try to help you here (although I can't really understand why; I suppose I just hate ignorance): While Hughes aircraft and Sikorsky cannot patent the concept of a "helicopter" they can patent ways to MAKE helicopters and the PARTS used to make them. Thusly, Hughes and Sikorsky each hold many, many patents, that are both PATENTED to them, and in most cases EXCLUSIVE to them (Either because of a refusal to license it or because it was not patented but is a Trade Secret). This is why the formula for Coke is EXCLUSIVE to Coke, but not patented - Coke guards their "Secret Formula because in order to gain patent protection you have to disclose the method used to make the thing you want to patent. Otherwise, how could the patent officers judge whether your process is unique or significantly different than other products or processes?
> 
> Trademarks are just that - a trade name used to identify a product, brand, or feature. It is the "Mark" used in "Trade", and to use a TM all you need to do is offer a product for sale under a specific name and/or image. That is literally all that you need to do. Just use the name in trade. This does not offer you much protection though by law, and if another company has been in the trade longer, and there is a potential for confusion in the marketplace, then you might lose your whole right to use the mark. It can ALSO be lost if you have a TM and fail to enforce it, which is why on Adobe's website you can find a fun article asking people to stop saying "photoshopped" and instead use the unweildy phrase "Manipulated using Adobe's Photoshop software". It's also why you see "facial tissue" and not "Kleenex".
> 
> This is also why Arbor chose to name their magnetraction-like design as "The System" rather than "Mangetraction Light" or "FrostyBiter Edges".
> 
> In order to get REGISTERED TRADEMARKS, you must file a legal claim to the name with the USPTO (US Patent and Trademarks Office) who will investigate your trademark claim and make a decision usually in 8-12 months. At that point, another company that has been using the mark is more or less SOL because now you own the LEGAL rights to that name, as recognized by the USPTO. Even if they had been using the name before, their failure to file a legal app for the name, while YOU did, and their failure to notice that you were doing so (there is a "public comments" period) means they lost out, and now the REGISTERED owner could, if they wished, use the new registered status in offensive legal actions.
> 
> You're welcome.


Just quoting for the passionate reactionary insults. If you had a lick of compassionate comprehension skills, you would have had the perspective to realize I mixed up trademark and patent. Small issue based on the topic (names of shit that is the same as other shit), but hey, you proved me wrong ( which I know was your only objective rather than addressing me calling out the "function"). The manufacturing patent shit show you seem to be trying to defend sucks, good luck with that. Innovation will cease?


IMO, Trademark seems to be the smokescreen of trying to be "real", patent is the borrowed ideas turned into an perceived invention, which makes money for lawyers and engineers only interested in money by suing for patent infringement when a better borrowed idea runs up against a less successful idea or company. Again, my un-educated patent perspective, but internet cred is way more important than opinions or perceptions.

The computer industry and software is a shitshow now of lawsuits for this type of crap. Who is at fault? Engineers?


----------



## david_z

Sick-Pow said:


> I think it would be way cool to just say, "we make these boards concave and here is why ours works so well", rather than, "our shit is trademarked and patented, and THAT is why it works so well".


I see what you're saying here and totally agree. For instance, NS made a big hullabaloo about acquiring a patent on the R&C tech. If I may ridiculously simplify things: essentially they filled out a bunch of paperwork and convinced the USPTO to put a stamp on their design.

The patented design or process might very well be the best thing since metal edges, but its efficacy is not a function of the patent, i.e., the patent doesn't imbue your product or process with gnar, and simply having a patent (or patents) doesn't necessarily prove that your product is better than anyone else's.


----------



## Sick-Pow

EchelonSnow said:


> "I think it would be way cool to just say, "
> 
> You really don't get how marketing works, do you? Additionally, whether you like it or not, your method is NOT sufficient. Here's why: True3D and Triple-Base Tech are DIFFERENT. They yield different feels, the topsheets end up different, the construction method does different things to the board - and so, if you say "concave" that does not impart enough information. CONCAVE HOW?
> 
> You probably aren't old enough to remember, but in skating their was a TM'd name for a concave called "Tub Tech". It was very useful to me, because I HATED deep concave and still do. Now, ALL skateboards (for street and ramp) have concave. But to the kid looking for, or looking to avoid, the deepest concave, "TUB TECH" was VERY VERY useful as a "smoke and mirrors" name.
> 
> Also, the bases are convex,, and (in Bataleon's and Burton's case) the topsheets are concave, while Omatic and BS/True3D is flat on top. But I'll let that slide too because I am a magnanimous guy :/ .
> 
> 
> "but that does not stop us from calling it out."
> It doesn't stop you. It stops lots of others who realize that they are not one and the same. Similar performance != the same performance. This is why things have different trade names, because they are SYMBOLOGY for a specific set of performance, manufacturing, and various other characteristics. What, when you ask for Sweet n Low do you want people to ask for "C^7H^5NO^3S instead? Jesus, your world would SUCK.


Quick quoting this gem too.


----------



## ThunderChunky

I never got that. How can you patent a camber style. :dunno: It's like patenting metal edges.


----------



## Sick-Pow

ThunderChunky said:


> I never got that. How can you patent a camber style. :dunno: It's like patenting metal edges.


They patent the fact that they had to tool specifically for that design. Otherwise, anyone could buy the tools from china and copy anyone else.

Makes sense, but the smoke screens are getting out of control.

NS's R/C design is actually very different.


----------



## Sick-Pow

david_z said:


> I see what you're saying here and totally agree. For instance, NS made a big hullabaloo about acquiring a patent on the R&C tech. If I may ridiculously simplify things: essentially they filled out a bunch of paperwork and convinced the USPTO to put a stamp on their design.
> 
> The patented design or process might very well be the best thing since metal edges, but its efficacy is not a function of the patent, i.e., the patent doesn't imbue your product or process with gnar, and simply having a patent (or patents) doesn't necessarily prove that your product is better than anyone else's.


Is it that easy to get a patent?

You edited your post about Never Summer's patent.


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## david_z

You're kidding, right?


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## Sick-Pow

david_z said:


> You're kidding, right?


Maybe starting e-fights will bump up your blog views?


----------



## EchelonSnow

"Just quoting for the passionate reactionary insults. If you had a lick of compassionate comprehension skills, you would have had the perspective to realize I mixed up trademark and patent. "

HAHAHAHA, that's super-rich. So, you insulted me three times in a thread, wrong all three times, made a huge mistake regarding how much you know about something, then you think I should have compassion for you? That wasn't a small mistake, it was the crux of your argument. And I finally DID realize your mistake, but since every time you post it's an attempt to make your e-penis the size of the car coming through your legs in your avatar, & you can't leave well enough alone, I felt it necessary to call YOU out, so next time you'll hopefully bring some knowledge to the discussion and not baseless insults and basic mistakes.

If you walk into a bar and insult someone's dog, should they give you compassionate understanding because you failed to realize that it was their girlfriend? At every turn I tried to placate you and give you a face-saving out. It's a testament to your tenacity to try to win an argument to keep coming back.


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## ThunderChunky

This is like the ultimate argue thread. :laugh: ........me included.


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## EchelonSnow

"Is it that easy to get a patent?"

Getting a patent is difficult, laborious, expensive, and time consuming. So no.


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## ThunderChunky

^ Patents are one of the hardest things I can think of off the top of my head for a company to do. Unless they are really big.


----------



## Sick-Pow

EchelonSnow said:


> "Just quoting for the passionate reactionary insults. If you had a lick of compassionate comprehension skills, you would have had the perspective to realize I mixed up trademark and patent. "
> 
> HAHAHAHA, that's super-rich. So, you insulted me three times in a thread, wrong all three times, made a huge mistake regarding how much you know about something, then you think I should have compassion for you? That wasn't a small mistake, it was the crux of your argument. And I finally DID realize your mistake, but since every time you post it's an attempt to make your e-penis the size of the car coming through your legs in your avatar, & you can't leave well enough alone, I felt it necessary to call YOU out, so next time you'll hopefully bring some knowledge to the discussion and not baseless insults and basic mistakes.
> 
> If you walk into a bar and insult someone's dog, should they give you compassionate understanding because you failed to realize that it was their girlfriend?



Crux, to the point of the argument, concave is as concave does? Or is the sintered base feature trademarked and copyrighted too?

Smokescreens.

You are defending your own companies use of smokescreens to market the product. You attacked other companies same use of smokescreens because you do not think it is the same. Welcome to the internet.


----------



## EchelonSnow

Hahahahahahahahaha. OK, sorry that you suck at reading comprehension, business, and engineering. Does that help you?

I am DEFENDING the other companies use of trade names for their features. Perhaps you are a robot? This would explain a lot.

Even though this is AMERICA, you should likely "cut 'n' run" here, because you lost your credibility long ago. I lost my humanity apparently, but that's OK because I am part of the baby-killin', 2-minutes-to-midnight corporate warfare machine.

"concave is as concave does"
I don't even understand what this is supposed to mean, but damn it, it is CONVEX. It's like arguing with my kids over what 6x3 equals.

Here, does this help you? True3D and BS Tech are the same thing (of course, I make no attempt to hide this and never have). Light3D was new tooling Jason and I built for the RC boards because the full-on version tested as too slippery. I use True3D as a trade name because I am not Todd Richards, and hence "GET IT BULLSHIT TECH" doesn't work with my branding, which you apparently aren't the market for anyway.


----------



## EchelonSnow

ThunderChunky said:


> ^ Patents are one of the hardest things I can think of off the top of my head for a company to do. Unless they are really big.


For sure... the process is severely protracted. I'm on the fence on patents utility honestly. In some industries they work (pharma, for instance), but then in other they suck (software). But the only reason they are easy for big companies is money.

Add in that you have to get patents for each country you want to do have protection in, and it is a NIGHTMARE. It is why many companies just go the "trade secret" route.


----------



## Sick-Pow

I love this whole "discussion" is buried in a Rome thread. 

Seems like a Rival manufacture trying to justify that their _______ design(s) are the best because it is patented, trademarked, but avoid the function argument. Avoidance with credibility attack is a great strategy, you have won, go shoot some more guns. 

Too bad for Echelon this thread really does not matter, and the consumer will decide with their own research, not what their trademarked marketing says, just look at ___________ brand.


----------



## EchelonSnow

"Or is the sintered base feature trademarked and copyrighted too?"
No, because it cannot be. Nearly all sintered bases come from the same manufacturers, on all boards, and you can't copyright nor tm "sintering" because it is a common word that describes the XXXXmaterialXXX (edit, sorry, sintering is the process of JOINING the material), in much the same way "Lay's" cannot copyright or TM "potato chips".

However, take Burton's "Methalon Base". Do you think they should have to call it "Teflon impregnated to X percentage for super speed! Base"? Because that is the ridiculous, ignorant, idiotic world you inhabit. All product names go away, leaving us to fully describe everything we make every time we want to reference it.

You mention earlier the "software patents" issue. Are you a programmer? Do you then understand the concept of object-based programming and encapsulation? That is what trade names are. They encapsulate the internal traits and constraints of something. That way, people (sales reps, the public) can't use them wrong by setting these internal traits inconsistently or improperly. That would give an inaccurate description of the object, which of course you don't want if you actually have something different internally.

To go back to the Sweet N Low analogy, it prevents you from having to ask for the chemical combo for saccharine (or hell, to even know that Sweet N Low = Saccharine) and ending up poisoning yourself with your morning coffee.


----------



## EchelonSnow

Sick-Pow said:


> I love this whole "discussion" is buried in a Rome thread.
> 
> Seems like a Rival manufacture trying to justify that their _______ design(s) are the best because it is patented, trademarked, but avoid the function argument. Avoidance with credibility attack is a great strategy, you have won, go shoot some more guns.
> 
> Too bad for Echelon this thread really does not matter, and the consumer will decide with their own research, not what their trademarked marketing says, just look at ___________ brand.


Oh good, you acknowledged that your e-penis has faded. Good show!

"but avoid the function argument"
Never avoided that, but thanks for the fallacious redirect attempt.

"Too bad for Echelon this thread really does not matter, and the consumer will decide with their own research, "
Actually, this conversation is research, and I think pretty clearly it shows that I know what I am talking about and that you didn't, again and again. So yes, I did pretty much win. Sure, I won't get too many people who feel sorry for the way you were beaten down after you more or less tried to slap me multiple times, but I am OK with that. It's consistent with the branding - well made snowboards for non-idiots who like the military and don't like bullshitters.

"Go shoot some more guns"
I think I will! Thanks!


----------



## Cr0_Reps_Smit

Sick-Pow said:


> I love this whole "discussion" is buried in a Rome thread.
> 
> Seems like a Rival manufacture trying to justify that their _______ design(s) are the best because it is patented, trademarked, but avoid the function argument. Avoidance with credibility attack is a great strategy, you have won, go shoot some more guns.
> 
> Too bad for Echelon this thread really does not matter, and the consumer will decide with their own research, not what their trademarked marketing says, just look at ___________ brand.


sorry to say but he didnt "win" because because of avoidance of your questions, quite the opposite really, he answered everything and then some explaining everything, yet you still find little things to try and prove him wrong about only to have him counter that because it doesnt seem you fully know what you are talking about. not that i know any more then you do but i understand most of what has been said just be reading echelons posts and a little bit of google.

i havent seen echelon be anything BUT understanding in this whole discussion. if this was BA you were 'debating' with you wouldve been torn up and spit out after youre first couple posts.


----------



## Sudden_Death

I'm far more inclined to check out Echelon's line after seeing how he deals with e-trolls. They'll probably be even nicer to people who buy their stuff.


----------



## Sick-Pow

BurtonAvenger said:


> Echelon touched on this. Here's the thing when you have brands like Never Summer and Mervin that have had decades to grow it works. Signals success I attribute to when they were the Supernatural brand under Mervin and had 300% growth in Korea for I believe it was 3 years that's where they brand at the time was established. When Quik pulled the plug and they started Signal they had that distribution network in Korea and Asia which helped them stay afloat over other brands. In the U.S. Signal isn't even a top 10 brand for sales I'd say they might be lucky and be a top 20 brand which is respectable but on the global scale nothing special.
> 
> I don't know why you would pay more for a sub par product that makes no sense to me. I'm all for snowboarding being affordable to people.
> 
> I know a lot of people at a lot of different brands and there's both great and shitty people there. It's just how it is, granted this industry is in a down size right now and a lot of the shitty people are being cut far more than the great people. What the snowboard industry needs is people that snowboard but also understand business, not fucking kooks that just didn't want to work in a industry that they thought would be fun because they didn't want to work as a 9 to 5 cubicle jockey.
> 
> One of the other thing with the snowboard industry is there's people running companies that shouldn't be. They might be a great engineer or marketing person or team manager etc. etc. But they are not great business people. If you saw on average the emails I deal with on a daily basis you would cringe at some of the shit I have to put up with to get shit to happen for you guys on my site. But that just goes back to good people and shitty people which you have in any industry.
> 
> 
> 
> I've watched Rome grow for the last decade I remember when they first launched and I was working for a local shop that carried them. That company understood customer service and still does to this day. They've embraced social media on all levels from being on here to twitter to facebook to just having someone that answers your emails to them all day every day even if he is hungover.
> 
> And just for the sake of fucking with people here we go:
> 
> USA:
> Never Summer: Denver Colorado Also makes Status Snowboards
> Mervin: Lib, Gnu, Some Roxy
> Unity: Silverthorne Colorado
> Signal: LA also make Rockstar "promo not what Chaz rides" and Volcom
> Monson: Humanity, Nope, Nieva, Crispy Whips, GME, Legend, Sp3i, and a whole slew of other brands you do not give a shit about
> Sentury: Reno also makes NO Way! and Chas Guldemonds Rockstar boards
> Rev Manufacturing: Utah probably makes some other brands you've never heard of and a few prototypes for others I think Savai snowboards is from there as well as Blank snowboards
> Smokin: Sparks NV made some promotional Betty Rides boards at one point
> MarHar: Michigan
> Prospect: Partly made by Monson partly by their press they bought from Monson in Wisconsin
> Nightmare Development: Silverthorne CO with their own press not made by Unity
> Compatriot: Made somewhere in CO I'm thinking Donek
> Donek: Denver they also make mono skis I mean carving boards
> Homewood Snowboards: Help from Steve Hayes heard now Ryan Monson is helping them from Bradford PA
> OZ Snowboards: Englewood or Evergreen Colorado or some shit
> Blak Sheep Snowboards: Dirty Jerz
> Rhythm Snowboards: Somewhere in New England I think Maine or Mass or NH I'm brain farting here
> Bean Snowboards: Boston
> Chimera: Splitboards
> Tyrant Snowboards: If I haven't put them out of business
> Shotgun Snowboards: If they haven't put themselves out of business
> Epix Snowboards: Michigan or somewhere in the midwest
> 
> Canada:
> Prior
> Class 5
> Republic
> 
> 
> GST:
> Any board that has structurn is a dead give away of this.
> Niche
> Step Child?
> Santa Cruz?
> DC
> 
> Elan:
> Capita
> Higher end Rome I think the swallow tails and shit are made there
> Burton
> Nitro
> Automaton
> Academy
> Salomon?
> Head
> Palmer
> Endeavor
> Elan
> Artec
> 
> 
> Nidecker:
> Nidecker
> Jones
> Special Projects: I.E. Aunti Autti's boards AFM's Boards
> Yes
> Burton
> 
> Spain:
> Rossignol? Not sure if they're still made there
> 
> The Orient:
> Lamar
> Echelon
> Omatic
> Some Rome
> Monument
> Burton
> Technine
> K2
> Ride
> Sims
> Ellis
> 5150
> Morrow
> Flow
> Betty Rides
> 
> I think I covered just about everything I can off the top of my head. I just woke up and haven't had my morning pee or punched a baby in the face so I'm a bit foggy.


I thought Flow made boards in Austria? They had the structurn base before, not now? I also remember them marketing it as if it was their own special tech.


----------



## EchelonSnow

"I thought Flow made boards in Austria? They had the structurn base before, not now? I also remember them marketing it as if it was their own special tech"

I think Structurn (like Sintruded) is a trademarked (and possibly patented) base tech from one of the common base manus. The first time I ever saw it was on Forum, I had a Peter Line with it and really liked it. If I could find the manu, I'd actually like to add it to the lineup.


----------



## Cr0_Reps_Smit

Sudden_Death said:


> I'm far more inclined to check out Echelon's line after seeing how he deals with e-trolls. They'll probably be even nicer to people who buy their stuff.


dont get me wrong, im not calling sick pow a troll or anything. just seems like hes pretty intent on proving echelon wrong even when echelon is explaining everything pretty well and in a civil matter in my opinion


----------



## Sudden_Death

Yeah I am not saying always but in this one case there seems to be some sort of grudge being played out.


----------



## EchelonSnow

It's no biggie; no one likes to be wrong ON THE INTERNET!


----------



## EchelonSnow

Back to the matter at hand, and this is ultimate derail, but once again - INTERNET - Has anyone else any opinions on Structurn's effectiveness? Back then, I didn't have the idea to actually build a test rig (because I was too busy having fun)... But has anyone confirmed the allegorical claims that it is faster?


----------



## ThunderChunky

Yah, this does seem kinda weird. Usually he's pretty cool, in my personal experiences. Honestly due just stop trying to convince people and only owrry about what you're riding. I give props to Echelon for actually not being personal, nice for a change.


----------



## Sick-Pow

Cr0_Reps_Smit said:


> sorry to say but he didnt "win" because because of avoidance of your questions, quite the opposite really, he answered everything and then some explaining everything, yet you still find little things to try and prove him wrong about only to have him counter that because it doesnt seem you fully know what you are talking about. not that i know any more then you do but i understand most of what has been said just be reading echelons posts and a little bit of google.
> 
> i havent seen echelon be anything BUT understanding in this whole discussion. if this was BA you were 'debating' with you wouldve been torn up and spit out after youre first couple posts.





Cr0_Reps_Smit said:


> dont get me wrong, im not calling sick pow a troll or anything. just seems like hes pretty intent on proving echelon wrong even when echelon is explaining everything pretty well and in a civil matter in my opinion


You are right, his has answered everything he has wanted to address.

But he seemed to take my comment about Made in China personal, (not mentioning him directly at first), as I believe now even more, that the 'max profit driven' business ethics is not always good karma. He (mr. engineer) is way more important than the carpenter down the road in the trailer park scraping along at making furniture or decks, or is he? Give that man a job! Their taking our jobs!

In talking about patents/TM, the perspective of the consumer is the point ( or the failed point in the escholon case), not the credibility of my lack of knowledge about the companies justification for building/marketing smokescreens. None of that was addressed, only credibility attack and complete lack of perspective. Trust is the issue, not my own lack of lawyer knowledge, thankfully. Someone will trust brand A, because they see the marketed spin, and can see through the smokescreen. Brand B, looks like they have something else on their mind. 


This thread was/is about outsourcing and quality among brands. He jumped in.

Rome are good people, they employ a lot of people and make great products. Another core company. Massive and fast growth maybe is not always the first priority.


----------



## EchelonSnow

Dude, you are a damn fool who doesn't know when to stay down. You're done. I addressed EVERYTHING, including shit you should have addressed yourself by getting an education instead of a sweet ride to pose with like you're N'Sync on the snow.

To quote the mighty BA Baracus:
"You want to step into the thunderdome with me?"
You'll have to do that alone, because I don't fight women and children. (Unless you are a kid, in which case I apologize).

"(not mentioning him directly at first), " Don't add "liar" to your list of faults, sir. Your silliness was directed my way because you think people who are in blue collar jobs have more importance than those who work in white collar jobs. I actually have the nuts to respect them EQUALLY, as human beings capable of controlling their own destiny and not as some invalids who, try as they might, "just can't seem to get a break :sadclown:".

A factory worker would likely be insulted at your low opinion of them.

"as I believe now even more, that the 'max profit driven' business ethics is not always good karma. "
Good luck in destination: poverty. BTW, if I were max profits driven, I wouldn't start a snowboard company, you massive, massive idiot. I'm driven by "I like to snowboard and generally like snowboarders, and happen to also be a decent product designer and businessman so hey, I'll do something I like and hopefully make enough profit to grow the business before I am 70 or dead".

Also, it's "Echelon", which is a military formation and also a strata of performance or society. Or were you trying to make a joke combining Echelon and Eschatology (study of the 'end times'?


Now - does anyone know if there are any studies RE the Structurn Base, or as SP would call it "pieces of plastic pressed into sheet form and heated (but not too much) so that there is somewhere for wax to wick into and then little golf-dimples are placed in it to (possibly) prevent hydrodynamic downward forces.... Base"


----------



## EchelonSnow

ThunderChunky said:


> Yah, this does seem kinda weird. Usually he's pretty cool, in my personal experiences. Honestly due just stop trying to convince people and only owrry about what you're riding. I give props to Echelon for actually not being personal, nice for a change.


Well, to be honest that last post is a bit personal, but he deserves it. I tried AGAIN to be nice by merely starting page 15 (or 16?) with a completely normal reply to the structurn base question. Instead, he still requires ointment to assuage his skinned ego.

Maybe I am going about this wrong. New marketing Direction: "Coming 2013 - For riders by riders, who go riding in harmony together and donate 100% of the proceeds to give robotic dolls souls! Be sure to check our 2014 season too, which will be called "nonexistent snowboards""


----------



## Sick-Pow

EchelonSnow said:


> Dude, you are a damn fool who doesn't know when to stay down. You're done. I addressed EVERYTHING, including shit you should have addressed yourself by getting an education instead of a sweet ride to pose with like you're N'Sync on the snow.
> 
> To quote the mighty BA Baracus:
> "You want to step into the thunderdome with me?"
> You'll have to do that alone, because I don't fight women and children. (Unless you are a kid, in which case I apologize).
> 
> "(not mentioning him directly at first), " Don't add "liar" to your list of faults, sir. Your silliness was directed my way because you think people who are in blue collar jobs have more importance than those who work in white collar jobs. I actually have the nuts to respect them EQUALLY, as human beings capable of controlling their own destiny and not as some invalids who, try as they might, "just can't seem to get a break :sadclown:".
> 
> A factory worker would likely be insulted at your low opinion of them.
> 
> "as I believe now even more, that the 'max profit driven' business ethics is not always good karma. "
> Good luck in destination: poverty. BTW, if I were max profits driven, I wouldn't start a snowboard company, you massive, massive idiot. I'm driven by "I like to snowboard and generally like snowboarders, and happen to also be a decent product designer and businessman so hey, I'll do something I like and hopefully make enough profit to grow the business before I am 70 or dead".
> 
> Also, it's "Echelon", which is a military formation and also a strata of performance or society. Or were you trying to make a joke combining Echelon and Eschatology (study of the 'end times'?
> 
> 
> Now - does anyone know if there are any studies RE the Structurn Base, or as SP would call it "pieces of plastic pressed into sheet form and heated (but not too much) so that there is somewhere for wax to wick into and then little golf-dimples are placed in it to *(possibly)* prevent hydrodynamic downward forces.... Base"


wow, quite the fail there buddy. Insulting the great David Hasslehoff was the last straw. The way you are escalating, you might threaten me next.

Whatever it takes to get yourself to sleep at night man.

Yeah, structure in bases does _NOTHING._ and god cannot be proven either.


----------



## EchelonSnow

You sir, are thoroughly ridiculous. Seems the court of public opinion has already denied you plea bargain. Also, didn't really see any threats in there either; unless you propose that written internet battery to be an actual threat. (Once again, if you are in high school, perhaps you justifiably might, in which case again - I apologise.)


----------



## EchelonSnow

"Yeah, structure in bases does NOTHING. and god cannot be proven either."

Certainly correct on point 2, however the first can be. Specifically (foreshadowing, this is yet ANOTHER bone I am throwing you to return to respectability) - does STRUCTURN SPECIFICALLY, have benefits over standard base structuring techniques, that have been demonstrated via testing and not just (like my story) it seems that it's working!?


----------



## BurtonAvenger

Before I begin my god this thread is fucking hilarious and full of win!


romesaz said:


> To add to that:
> I believe my 2011 Arbor Coda is made in Austria.
> Forum, at least older decks (06/07 Youngblood) was also Austria.
> Probably at the Elan plant?


 Like I said brain farting thought I put Arbor in under Elan. 



romesaz said:


> With the above in mind:
> Those in the industry (BA, Echelon), do you guys know if Arbor uses same tech as other companies? Or is it their own R&D? I saw an interview on Angry Boarder with'em, and it seemed like a bit of handwaving.
> I'm really excited to ride my coda. I found new old stock this year and can't wait. But I'm just wondering how much of what their preach is actually true and not just BS.


 Eh I think Bob did a great job in that interview with me. Hand waving no System is different than Magnetraction on a Banana and definitely different than Frostbite on a Burton deck. The bent at the middle shape they took from a product catalog but the bumps are a result of a tri radial sidecut that didn't have the radi blended together. When they were making boards with that tri radial cut they would have this area that bumped out they left it on their bent deck to see if it worked. Guess what it did. They single handily gave me faith in boards bent in the center. Still hate MTX and Banana from Mervin though. Shit can suck my balls. 




romesaz said:


> To add to the whole debacle about orient manufacturing, and this will probably get some fires started (I apologize):
> In my opinion, quality would be competitive, if not better coming from Asia, assuming same quality controls. The reason I say that is my poor opinion of most north american unions. Specifically: There isn't much incentive for a factory worker here to do work 100% perfectly when he/she knows that his/her ass will be protected by the union.
> Whereas in Asia, there's a lot more on the line, so many mistakes can't be made, otherwise someone will replace you.
> 
> Anyways, flame away. I'm hoping that I'm wrong, and am looking forward to be proven as such.


 Unions can blow me they have no ones best interest at heart but the upper tiers that take advantage of the rest. Seriously fuck Unions I've been in 1 Union in my life and it was enough to know it didn't do shit to protect me so I was in and out faster than Superman having a quickie with Wonder Woman in the invisible plane. Thankfully I haven't seen a board builders Union here in the U.S. but have a bunch of friends that do it and tell me they don't make shit at it but it's one of those "fun" jobs to say you're in the industry. You know like being one of Quiksilvers marketing people oh wait they all got fired. I'm with you though man Oriental products last me 10 times longer than shit from Austria or the U.S.



ThunderChunky said:


> :dunno: Soooooooooooo out of my knowledge ability right now. :laugh:


 Start taking notes kiddo. 



Sick-Pow said:


> Crux, to the point of the argument, concave is as concave does? Or is the sintered base feature trademarked and copyrighted too?
> 
> Smokescreens.
> 
> You are defending your own companies use of smokescreens to market the product. You attacked other companies same use of smokescreens because you do not think it is the same. Welcome to the internet.


 If creative marketing is smokescreens we're all guilty of this when we sell ourselves in interviews for jobs, on dates, and our daily lives. I guess by this reasoning my marketing for my site falls under just being a rip off of Heckler and Blunt which in turn were rip offs of Rolling Stone etc. etc. etc. 



Sudden_Death said:


> I'm far more inclined to check out Echelon's line after seeing how he deals with e-trolls. They'll probably be even nicer to people who buy their stuff.


 Strategic nuclear strikes have been called in. 



Sick-Pow said:


> I thought Flow made boards in Austria? They had the structurn base before, not now? I also remember them marketing it as if it was their own special tech.





EchelonSnow said:


> "I thought Flow made boards in Austria? They had the structurn base before, not now? I also remember them marketing it as if it was their own special tech"
> 
> I think Structurn (like Sintruded) is a trademarked (and possibly patented) base tech from one of the common base manus. The first time I ever saw it was on Forum, I had a Peter Line with it and really liked it. If I could find the manu, I'd actually like to add it to the lineup.


Flow hasn't made a deck at GST in something like 5 years or whatever it is. I can't remember what Eric told me the last time we talked plus by margins and deadlines he even said the Asian persuasions were better. Don't know about you but shipping late = death of a brand in snowboarding. 

Structurn from my understanding is actually a GST only thing because it's pressed from the mold itself. The cassette has the dimples on it. 



EchelonSnow said:


> It's no biggie; no one likes to be wrong ON THE INTERNET!


 Serious business on here. You know you're winning when death threats get thrown out. 



EchelonSnow said:


> Back to the matter at hand, and this is ultimate derail, but once again - INTERNET - Has anyone else any opinions on Structurn's effectiveness? Back then, I didn't have the idea to actually build a test rig (because I was too busy having fun)... But has anyone confirmed the allegorical claims that it is faster?


 It's a crock of shit and a bitch to fix if you core shot. Plus a few stone grinds and say good bye to those dimples. 



Sick-Pow said:


> You are right, his has answered everything he has wanted to address.
> 
> But he seemed to take my comment about Made in China personal, (not mentioning him directly at first), as I believe now even more, that the 'max profit driven' business ethics is not always good karma. He (mr. engineer) is way more important than the carpenter down the road in the trailer park scraping along at making furniture or decks, or is he? Give that man a job! Their taking our jobs!
> 
> In talking about patents/TM, the perspective of the consumer is the point ( or the failed point in the escholon case), not the credibility of my lack of knowledge about the companies justification for building/marketing smokescreens. None of that was addressed, only credibility attack and complete lack of perspective. Trust is the issue, not my own lack of lawyer knowledge, thankfully. Someone will trust brand A, because they see the marketed spin, and can see through the smokescreen. Brand B, looks like they have something else on their mind.
> 
> 
> This thread was/is about outsourcing and quality among brands. He jumped in.
> 
> Rome are good people, they employ a lot of people and make great products. Another core company. Massive and fast growth maybe is not always the first priority.


 Are you serious dude? You were taking pop shots at his brand non stop. Get off your miniature pony this is a replay of your hating on alternate camber then suddenly promoting a fly by night operation from Illuminati and their alternate cambered decks. You're a dumbass troll plain and simple. 



EchelonSnow said:


> "as I believe now even more, that the 'max profit driven' business ethics is not always good karma. "
> Good luck in destination: poverty. BTW, if I were max profits driven, I wouldn't start a snowboard company, you massive, massive idiot. I'm driven by "I like to snowboard and generally like snowboarders, and happen to also be a decent product designer and businessman so hey, I'll do something I like and hopefully make enough profit to grow the business before I am 70 or dead".


How do you make a million dollars in the snowboard industry? Invest 7 million. Seriously snowboard companies are largely not profitable in this industry most squeak by but the masses think they're all rolling large. 



EchelonSnow said:


> Maybe I am going about this wrong. New marketing Direction: "Coming 2013 - For riders by riders, who go riding in harmony together and donate 100% of the proceeds to give robotic dolls souls! Be sure to check our 2014 season too, which will be called "nonexistent snowboards""


 See article here The Angry Snowboarder Blog Archive Played Out Marketing Pitches



EchelonSnow said:


> You sir, are thoroughly ridiculous. Seems the court of public opinion has already denied you plea bargain. Also, didn't really see any threats in there either; unless you propose that written internet battery to be an actual threat. (Once again, if you are in high school, perhaps you justifiably might, in which case again - I apologise.)


 The internet is serious business man and sometimes you get called a *** or get a few death threats on you. Seriously this thread is mild compared to some of the melt downs I've caused people over the years. I still love that dude that actually showed up to my job looking to fight me.


----------



## EchelonSnow

"a fly by night operation from Illuminati "

That's all I needed to know , lol.

THE AVENGER HAS SPOKEN! Now, can we declare it back to topic, or have we covered it enough? (ya think?) thanks for the notes re structurn.

Also- just learned that niedecker produces in TUNISIA! Whatttttt?


----------



## Sudden_Death

EchelonSnow said:


> "a fly by night operation from Illuminati "
> 
> That's all I needed to know , lol.
> 
> THE AVENGER HAS SPOKEN! Now, can we declare it back to topic, or have we covered it enough? (ya think?) thanks for the notes re structurn.
> 
> Also- just learned that niedecker produces in TUNISIA! Whatttttt?


With global warming duneboarding is where it is gonna be at. They are just getting a jump on the rest.


----------



## BurtonAvenger

Well Nidecker has 2 factories. Tunisia = low end Switzerland = high end.


----------



## EchelonSnow

Matrix I found out is where they do their youth boards, apparently. It wasn't an attempt to say it's a bad thing, I just didn't know Tunisia made boards LOL. I imagine that prop skeleton from star wars in the background, and lots of 'look sir, droids' jokes near the CNC machinery.


----------



## BurtonAvenger

Eh the Tunisia factory is pure shit honestly and has a lot of QC problems from what I've seen. Also heard it's been up for sale for a few years.


----------



## Sick-Pow

What is with the Illuminati hate? Seems over the top and biased. The Echelon dude from, what I remember, chimes in on this thread about Rome making their shit in China, that his company makes their shit in China, and all hell breaks loose. Butthurt rants continue cause I just got some popcorn.

About Illuminati, no park decks i guess.
"This company was started in Jackson in the year 2000. Lance Pitman founded the company after riding for K2 for 8 years as a pro rider. After designing boards for K2 he decided to give it a try on his own. Now 8 years later Illuminati makes some of the best Bamboo snowboards on the market. They are designed specifically for mountain, powder and freestyle riding in the natural environment. You can get them direct from their website."

Bluebird is coming out with a board soon.


----------



## BurtonAvenger

The hate is on you for shit you said dumbass. Your I hate alternate camber then a week later it's all I love Illuminati you should buy their alternate camber it's the fucking bees knees. 

Illuminati failed once or do we not talk about that? I know Bluebird is making a board or two for next season it's kind of common knowledge if you've seen any of the information/propaganda surrounding them. Props to them for making boards.


----------



## Sick-Pow

BurtonAvenger said:


> The hate is on you for shit you said dumbass. Your I hate alternate camber then a week later it's all I love Illuminati you should buy their alternate camber it's the fucking bees knees.
> 
> Illuminati failed once or do we not talk about that? I know Bluebird is making a board or two for next season it's kind of common knowledge if you've seen any of the information/propaganda surrounding them. Props to them for making boards.


Am I writing a fucking bible here? My early season opinion about how much I loved Camber so much, and to start some shit, is law now? I heard about Illuminati making sweet pow boards and posted it up. 

So what if they failed. When you fail, you get the fuck up and ether try again or try something new. Hating a man while he is down is pretty low.

Again, a bio of this company Illuminati; They also SOLD OUT of their pre-orders. SOunds like they are making people happy with pow boards.

"This company was started in Jackson in the year 2000. Lance Pitman founded the company after riding for K2 for 8 years as a pro rider. After designing boards for K2 he decided to give it a try on his own. Now 8 years later Illuminati makes some of the best Bamboo snowboards on the market. They are designed specifically for mountain, powder and freestyle riding in the natural environment. You can get them direct from their website."


----------



## Efilnikufesin

BurtonAvenger said:


> The internet is serious business man and sometimes you get called a *** or get a few death threats on you. Seriously this thread is mild compared to some of the melt downs I've caused people over the years. I still love that dude that actually showed up to my job looking to fight me.


Was he originally from NY? Just because, well, we don't play like that. You can open your mouth or write something, but consider the possibility of five knuckes to the face when you do. Just how we are, we skip the passive/aggressive and and just tend to go aggressive/aggressive.


----------



## Sick-Pow

After reading this shit show thread again I just want to say some people have clown shoes on.


----------



## BurtonAvenger

Sick-Pow said:


> Am I writing a fucking bible here? My early season opinion about how much I loved Camber so much, and to start some shit, is law now? I heard about Illuminati making sweet pow boards and posted it up.
> 
> So what if they failed. When you fail, you get the fuck up and ether try again or try something new. Hating a man while he is down is pretty low.
> 
> Again, a bio of this company Illuminati; They also SOLD OUT of their pre-orders. SOunds like they are making people happy with pow boards.
> 
> "This company was started in Jackson in the year 2000. Lance Pitman founded the company after riding for K2 for 8 years as a pro rider. After designing boards for K2 he decided to give it a try on his own. Now 8 years later Illuminati makes some of the best Bamboo snowboards on the market. They are designed specifically for mountain, powder and freestyle riding in the natural environment. You can get them direct from their website."


 You want me to pull it back up? You're back peddling harder than a hipster at a stop light trying to keep his balance on his fixed gear. 



Efilnikufesin said:


> Was he originally from NY? Just because, well, we don't play like that. You can open your mouth or write something, but consider the possibility of five knuckes to the face when you do. Just how we are, we skip the passive/aggressive and and just tend to go aggressive/aggressive.


I'm from NY I'm not scared of dipshits like that plus I think dude was from NJ.


----------



## Sick-Pow

BurtonAvenger said:


> You want me to pull it back up? You're back peddling harder than a hipster at a stop light trying to keep his balance on his fixed gear.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm from NY I'm not scared of dipshits like that plus I think dude was from NJ.


How can someone backpedal when they are changing their mind? Am I a politician? Are my words law? Are you going to avoid the other points so we can focus on what you want to argue about?

Oh and, Loveland Thursday?


----------



## Efilnikufesin

BurtonAvenger said:


> I'm from NY I'm not scared of dipshits like that plus I think dude was from NJ.


Jersey? Def should have gone outside and scraped some knuckles. Can't be taking shit like that from Jersey! LOL


----------



## EchelonSnow

That's the great thing about forums; you can actually go back and read rather than 'from what you remember'. If you do, you'll find all my comments are supportive of Rome. What actually happened was that I mentioned 'it's ok to Manu overseas', I noticed a comment re the channel and how it slips and how we were attempting to remedy it, you claimed I was making shit up, I recognized that you didn't have a clue what you were talking about but decided to throw you the 'ok, it's always user error  bone, for some reason that wasn't good enough and you tried again and again to put a cogent argument together about patents, trademarks, and why America is awesome but money and capitalism sucks, I proved you wrong several more times, you lost at Internet, proved that you are WAY too into the hoff, and then continued to exhibit the butthurtness that you should likely just let fade away but you can't.

That's a fairly accurate, albeit short, summation of you sucking at Internet debate.


----------



## BurtonAvenger

Sick-Pow said:


> How can someone backpedal when they are changing their mind? Am I a politician? Are my words law? Are you going to avoid the other points so we can focus on what you want to argue about?
> 
> Oh and, Loveland Thursday?


You changed your mind in less than a week after adamantly defending how awesome camber was and how shitty alternate camber was. Then you went on to promote a brand as if you were a used car salesmen. The brand is nothing but a mere shell of what it once was. Cool they have Mott making boards for them and he knows how to make a solid deck with that finish. If that's all they got for the table more power to them. 

You're the one that wants to argue like you have something to prove. You're a fucking moron in my eyes and you will remain that way and nothing is going to change that. You could cure cancer and you will still be a fucking moron to me. That is where I put you. Welcome to the internet!



Efilnikufesin said:


> Jersey? Def should have gone outside and scraped some knuckles. Can't be taking shit like that from Jersey! LOL


I wasn't there he showed up flipped shit and left. No one at work really knew what was going on they just told me about it.


----------



## Sick-Pow

EchelonSnow said:


> "a fly by night operation from Illuminati "
> 
> That's all I needed to know , lol.
> 
> THE AVENGER HAS SPOKEN! Now, can we declare it back to topic, or have we covered it enough? (ya think?) thanks for the notes re structurn.
> 
> Also- just learned that niedecker produces in TUNISIA! Whatttttt?





EchelonSnow said:


> Internet debate.


How you see a argument in your warped head, and what was really written are 2 very different things. 


Do you have anything to back your comments about laughing off Illuminati?

And Tunisia has been happening for a while, old news.


----------



## BurtonAvenger

Sick-Pow said:


> How you see a argument in your warped head, and what was really written are 2 very different things.
> 
> 
> Do you have anything to back your comments about laughing off Illuminati?


People I would like to point out when a person gets to this level they're grasping at straws to try and argue.


----------



## Sick-Pow

BurtonAvenger said:


> You changed your mind in less than a week after adamantly defending how awesome camber was and how shitty alternate camber was. Then you went on to promote a brand as if you were a used car salesmen. The brand is nothing but a mere shell of what it once was. Cool they have Mott making boards for them and he knows how to make a solid deck with that finish. If that's all they got for the table more power to them.
> 
> You're the one that wants to argue like you have something to prove. You're a fucking moron in my eyes and you will remain that way and nothing is going to change that. You could cure cancer and you will still be a fucking moron to me. That is where I put you. Welcome to the internet!
> 
> 
> 
> I wasn't there he showed up flipped shit and left. No one at work really knew what was going on they just told me about it.


I started another thread about hybrid camber,and now my opinion about camber is null? Dude, dude?

Promoting like a used car salesman for a brand that looks really good and can capture a small part of the market, yes, more power to them. I could not afford one last year, but I wanted to, just to have another pow board.

Someone needs to add WInterstick snowboards to the list for us OGers.


----------



## Efilnikufesin

We should have SBForum.com Fight Club! I just want to destroy something beautiful! Just not my board.


----------



## Sick-Pow

Efilnikufesin said:


> We should have SBForum.com Fight Club! I just want to destroy something beautiful! Just not my board.


With the adage "get in where you fit in" Echelon seems to be right up your alley, all the way to the rifle scope.


----------



## BurtonAvenger

At least they make boards that don't suck and can back up an argument unlike yourself.


----------



## Efilnikufesin

Sick-Pow said:


> With the adage "get in where you fit in" Echelon seems to be right up your alley, all the way to the rifle scope.


? Hmm, was that an attack, because I really just don't care.


----------



## Sick-Pow

Efilnikufesin said:


> ? Hmm, was that an attack, because I really just don't care.


Totally not. They sound like sweet boards.


----------



## Sick-Pow

BurtonAvenger said:


> At least they make boards that don't suck and can back up an argument unlike yourself.


wait, what? Why are you saying Illuminati make boards that suck? Is there any proof that they suck, or are inferior to any other brand? Data to back that up?


----------



## EchelonSnow

LOOK OUT HE'S GONNA BLOW (David hasselhoff).


----------



## Sick-Pow

EchelonSnow said:


> LOOK OUT HE'S GONNA BLOW (David hasselhoff).





Sick-Pow said:


> How you see a argument in your warped head, and what was really written are 2 very different things.
> 
> 
> Do you have anything to back your comments about laughing off Illuminati?
> 
> And Tunisia/nidicker has been happening for a while, old news.


Are you going to address/answer the question?


----------



## EchelonSnow

You are comprehension impaired. What he is saying is : I make boards that don't suck. This status is non exclusive, MANY companies make boards that don't suck. YOU make no boards, suck or otherwise. 

THEN he is making a separate statement, that I have successfully defended my arguments with evidence and aplomb, while you have.....not.


----------



## Efilnikufesin

EchelonSnow said:


> LOOK OUT HE'S GONNA BLOW (David hasselhoff).


Baywatch quotes are funny!


----------



## EchelonSnow

Re two posts up: Sure! I wasn't laughing off illuminati. I was laughing off YOU. Illuminati seems to make decent stuff(so I'm told; I've never ridden one.)

I actually think I read part of that thread BA was talking about, as a lurker. Realizing it was you, it made me realize "OH!"

You will NEVER win a battle of words onthe Internet, certainly not with me. I'm old 300baud school.


----------



## Sick-Pow

EchelonSnow said:


> "a fly by night operation from Illuminati "
> 
> That's all I needed to know , lol.
> 
> 
> Also- just learned that niedecker produces in TUNISIA! Whatttttt?




Niedecker has been producing there for a while, old news.


----------



## EchelonSnow

Congrats!!!! YOU'VE WON THIS ROUND, Batman!
Also:
"I could not afford one last year, but I wanted to"
If he manufactured overseas, you could have!


----------



## EchelonSnow

Also, if you didn't hate money so much, you could have too.


----------



## Justin

Sick-Pow said:


> Niedecker has been producing there for a while, old news.


just give it up. you lost. you are not the smartest/most knowledgable person here, so what. now you are just searching for somethng to win at. you are just embarrassing yourself at this point.


----------



## Sick-Pow

EchelonSnow said:


> Congrats!!!! YOU'VE WON THIS ROUND, Batman!
> Also:
> "I could not afford one last year, but I wanted to"
> If he manufactured overseas, you could have!



Illuminati boards are really affordable actually, @400USD pow boards.


----------



## Sick-Pow

Justin said:


> just give it up. you lost. you are not the smartest/most knowledgable person here, so what. now you are just searching for somethng to win at. you are just embarrassing yourself at this point.


Toddlers think about winning and losing in the same fashion as your post treats this thread. I don't, so I win.


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## Justin

Sick-Pow said:


> Toddlers think about winning and losing in the same fashion as your post treats this thread. I don't, so I win.


ahhhhh, this thread was so good for a while. i learned a ton. some time you should try asking questions instead of assuming you know every thing so the conversation doesn't degrade into uninformitive garbage. echelonsnow was so nice to you, he was on par with wiredsport there for a while lol. you should have asked questions instead of attacking him. live and learn i guess.


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## EchelonSnow

No worries! I'm going to follow my partners advice and 'let intermediaries handle the wetwork'... LOL. 

I hope that in between the vitriol, there is some useful info. Also, I hope it encourages people to learn more in the industry (me included!).


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## EchelonSnow

Wow, didn't know they were so inexpensive! I might get one just to try it. $400 is an amazing domestic price.

Oh wait, the reason he can retail at $400 is that he presells, buys materials with the presells, then pockets the full profit. That's a good plan, really.


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## Sick-Pow

Sick-Pow said:


> We did get off track and I doubt any of us want to trash anyone else in snowboarding, I know I am passionate and I want to be respectful even if I am wrong or not informed.
> 
> I think it is OK to talk big concepts, and demand of ourselves what we like to see in others in business ethics. Some companies, whom employ and support the local economy need our support too. Never Summer, Venture, Unity, along with a select few companies are making a competitive high end boutique product made here in the USA by local craftsman. Remember shop class dudes?
> 
> 
> For inventors and true pioneers of snow engineering, it seems these icons in snowboard design began in the garage then moved to local production. Only recently I have noticed have companies sprung up designing boards based off a template.





EchelonSnow said:


> Wow, didn't know they were so inexpensive! I might get one just to try it. $400 is an amazing domestic price.
> 
> Oh wait, the reason he can retail at $400 is that he presells, buys materials with the presells, then pockets the full profit. That's a good plan, really.


I knew you were here to bash other companies, KNEW IT.


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## EchelonSnow

Whatttttttt? Hahahahahajahahahahahahahahahahahah.

Do you think me saying that he 'pockets the full profits' is a bash? It is the highest praise! If the model was expandable, I'd do it too!

For your own good, you should stop.

This might be better than your mistake about tm/patents. It, more than anything, demonstrates your complete lack of business sense. The illuminati guy is a genius, and I don't begrudge him a penny.


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## Sick-Pow

EchelonSnow said:


> No worries! I'm going to follow my partners advice and 'let intermediaries handle the wetwork'... LOL.
> 
> I hope that in between the vitriol, there is some useful info. Also, I hope it encourages people to learn more in the industry (me included!).


I missed this gem too.


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## EchelonSnow

"For inventors and true pioneers of snow engineering, it seems these icons in snowboard design began in the garage then moved to local production"

Except Burton. Arguably the first, certainly the largest. You neglect to mention that they then moved to completely non-domestic production when reality hit home.

We all wish we could live in a utopian society where our xboxes were programmed by Jeff Goldblum down the street. But that isn't how it is, for reasons discussed ad nauseum earlier.

I'd go to bet that of every post here, not a single one was produced on a US made device. US DESIGNED? sure! But they weren't made here.


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## EchelonSnow

Sick-Pow said:


> I missed this gem too.


Now you're just being weird. Why do you re-quote posts that make you look like a petulant child?


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## EchelonSnow

EchelonSnow said:


> Now you're just being weird. Why do you re-quote posts that make you look like a petulant child?


This is actually a serious question to other members- is sickpow underage? I generally try to go easier on younger people, since they are generally just learning to form good arguments. It's like boxing; a kids first fight shouldn't be against delahoya, or they can't really learn.


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## Sick-Pow

EchelonSnow said:


> This is actually a serious question to other members- is sickpow underage? I generally try to go easier on younger people, since they are generally just learning to form good arguments. It's like boxing; a kids first fight shouldn't be against delahoya, or they can't really learn.



I can assure you that you can be as mean and angry as your character allows ( and have proven). My middle aged self can handle it.

Did you come up with a reason why you should not start smaller and employ your skilled neighbors to make your unique snowboards?


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## EchelonSnow

Sick-Pow said:


> I can assure you that you can be as mean and angry as your character allows ( and have proven). My middle aged self can handle it.
> 
> Did you come up with a reason why you should not start smaller and employ your skilled neighbors to make your unique snowboards?


SURE! every brand that tries it seems to fail at a drastically higher rate than those building offshore, which is why (with the exception of early movers NS and Mervin) there is not a single top brand produced domestically. I have also mentioned that building a factory is very very expensive. I also employe and sponsor my skilled neighbors in other positions, so there's that. That's positions that have actual applicability to new-generation and multi-use jobs like computer graphics, video editing, social media, photography, market analysis, printing, and more... Not to mention sales,

Have you cone up with a reason why a middle aged man is incapable of understanding the most basic tools of a middle aged man? I mean wow. Why don't YOU start small and employ YOUR neighbors?

The answer is because that takes effort, forward thinking, comprehension of the world as it is and not as you wish it to be, and a host of other skills you don't want to take time to learn. You make stupid mistakes on the most basic concepts and expect compassion from the person you're trying to undermine because you think the world owes you something. The world owes you nothing, and I owe you nothing but quality equipment in the event you ever accidentally buy something from us.

How many dollars will YOU give out to snowboarding veterans worldwide this year? Zero, because you'll do nothing this year, and now the Internet knows it.


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## CheeseForSteeze

EchelonSnow said:


> This is actually a serious question to other members- is sickpow underage? I generally try to go easier on younger people, since they are generally just learning to form good arguments. It's like boxing; a kids first fight shouldn't be against delahoya, or they can't really learn.


de la Hoya is washed up. Old man Hopkins and Mayweather framed the coffin for his boxing career and Pacquiao put the nails in it and with authority. Might not be too cruel to put him in there with a real prospect . Except maybe to de la Hoya's face.


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## Sick-Pow

EchelonSnow said:


> SURE! every brand that tries it seems to fail at a drastically higher rate than those building offshore, which is why (with the exception of early movers NS and Mervin) there is not a single top brand produced domestically. I have also mentioned that building a factory is very very expensive. I also employe and sponsor my skilled neighbors in other positions, so there's that. That's positions that have actual applicability to new-generation and multi-use jobs like computer graphics, video editing, social media, photography, market analysis, printing, and more... Not to mention sales,
> 
> Have you cone up with a reason why a middle aged man is inaspable of understanding the most basic tools of a middle aged man? I mean wow. Why don't YOU start small and employ YOUR neighbors?
> 
> The answer is because that takes effort, forward thinking, comprehension of the world as it is and not as you wish it to be, and a host of other skills you don't want to take time to learn. You make stupid mistakes on the most basic concepts and expect compassion from the person you're trying to undermine because you think the world owes you something. The world owes you nothing, and I owe you nothing but quality equipment in the event you ever accidentally buy something from us.
> 
> How many dollars will YOU give out to snowboarding veterans worldwide this year? Zero, because you'll do nothing this year, and now the Internet knows it.


Do you think the 2.5 hour lunch breaks for Chinese workers you mentioned justifies and makes it right to outsource? Some people are just more important than others?

The hating money comments were really funny too, clown shoes I tell ya, clown shoes.


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## EchelonSnow

I'll admit, I chose his name because it seemed like a guy people would know, and while I don't follow the sport I bet he could lay waste in a grade school, solo . Tyson seemed bombastic, and I have no tattoos.


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## EchelonSnow

Ok the answer then, is no- you haven't figured out why you're failing. Oh well. Also, again with the loose facts: the lunch was 2 hours, delicious, and provided by the factory.

Let me ask you again: how much money will you lose this year either in direct charitable contribution or products? None, right? How many jobs will YOU make, anywhere, of any type? NONE. I feel sort of bad typing this, because you might have a wife, kids- but you're being an idiot, and I bet you have the capacity to fix it, but you won't, because you're also stubborn.


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## EchelonSnow

"some people are just more important than others"

Try to recognize the irony in that statement.

Also, not to be a complete jerk but the blunt answer is yes, some are, just not the ones you think.
I'll leave that forever cryptic, to live in your brain until one day you get it. Also, to appear artificially deep and emo.


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## Efilnikufesin

Honestly, you should just take this all to the OWS thread, its the same debate.


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## EchelonSnow

Efilnikufesin said:


> Honestly, you should just take this all to the OWS thread, its the same debate.


My fault; I'll stop. I think the point's been made anyway too many times.


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## Efilnikufesin

EchelonSnow said:


> Also, not to be a complete jerk but the blunt answer is yes, some are, just not the ones you think.


It's all a matter of perspective, I can think of at least 50 people I care about more than you or anyone else on this forum, does that make my perspective correct when comes down to making that decision for a larger populous?


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## Efilnikufesin

EchelonSnow said:


> My fault; I'll stop. I think the point's been made anyway too many times.


Really it's fine, but its turned into more of an Wall St. vs. the people debate, honestly take it over there, this really started out as just a simple question on where Rome boards were made. Want to duke it out, join in on some better debate about on OWS, have been following the thread and honestly it would fit in better at this point and be more poignant over there. Not saying its a bad debate, but it just may fit better and seems part of the OWS debate.

Edit: Damn, do I like the word honestly after a few beers or what!


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## ThunderChunky

COME AT ME!!!:cheeky4:


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## EchelonSnow

Come at me bro!!!!


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## Efilnikufesin

Just honestly!


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## EchelonSnow

Honestly then, Rome is made at Matrix in ningbo, just like mine are. (they may be made elsewhere too). Honestly in all honesty.


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## ThunderChunky

So snowboard manufacture is a lot like the auto industry in that most of the "parts" are made in a universal plant. As in there is a few main plants that all companies buy their boards from or what?


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## EchelonSnow

ThunderChunky said:


> So snowboard manufacture is a lot like the auto industry in that most of the "parts" are made in a universal plant. As in there is a few main plants that all companies buy their boards from or what?


A bit, yes. The final assembly point isn't where the raw materials come from though; those are a mix of shipped in from all over and locally made. Our boards have parts from Europe, china, and yes -the good ol' USA. 

There are lots of factories, but few good ones. We evaluated SBF and Matrix (after US companies didn't call back). The two have different management styles and Matrix worked better for us. The decision of where to produce is critical, because when you move factories you don't usually get to bring your cassettes (molds), assuming you shape your own like we do or Rome does (most major brands). So if you find out later that they suck, it's a big hassle.


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## ThunderChunky

So basically there are a few major factories that make all the boards, but within the factory is like each companies sub factory?


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## BurtonAvenger

THUNDERDOME!!! 2 MAN ENTER 1 MAN LEAVE!




Sick-Pow said:


> I knew you were here to bash other companies, KNEW IT.


Um really not seeing any bashing here dumbass. Well unless you count my lack of tact and just going for the jugular which is pretty common place. 



EchelonSnow said:


> "For inventors and true pioneers of snow engineering, it seems these icons in snowboard design began in the garage then moved to local production"
> 
> Except Burton. Arguably the first, certainly the largest. You neglect to mention that they then moved to completely non-domestic production when reality hit home.
> 
> We all wish we could live in a utopian society where our xboxes were programmed by Jeff Goldblum down the street. But that isn't how it is, for reasons discussed ad nauseum earlier.
> 
> I'd go to bet that of every post here, not a single one was produced on a US made device. US DESIGNED? sure! But they weren't made here.


 You want to know what's funny almost every top tier brand in the world started in the U.S. and in order to stay alive has gone over seas both to Europe and Asia. That tell you something? Oh yeah U.S. is too high a cost because people think they deserve more than they should be paid. I equate it to the NBA sure we're facing a lock out but did the one guy really have to say "I'm only getting paid 2 million a year I can't feed my kids on that" same mindset with anyone in this country. Fact of the matter Americans are lazy. 



Sick-Pow said:


> Do you think the 2.5 hour lunch breaks for Chinese workers you mentioned justifies and makes it right to outsource? Some people are just more important than others?
> 
> The hating money comments were really funny too, clown shoes I tell ya, clown shoes.


I tell you this much worlds over populated you should just suck on the end of a shotgun probably help cure that. Plus I don't find you that important. 



ThunderChunky said:


> So snowboard manufacture is a lot like the auto industry in that most of the "parts" are made in a universal plant. As in there is a few main plants that all companies buy their boards from or what?


 Eh there's so many levels to the snowboard industry I could go into detail about tier 1 to tier 10 brands and everything in between it would blow your mind. Basic run down good factories and bad factories and then the bottom of the barrel factories. 



ThunderChunky said:


> So basically there are a few major factories that make all the boards, but within the factory is like each companies sub factory?


Factory must makes the stuff it's the design teams that differentiate the product. Hence why all big factories have a catalog that anyone can go to and pick shapes, lay up, sidecut, core, etc. etc. etc. 

I've ridden hundreds if not thousands of products over the last few years. I've ridden identical shapes from different brands. Like the Niche Aether that board shares the shape of the old Nitro Suprateam. I asked the owner about this and while beating around the bush he basically said yes.


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## cjcameron11

come at me bro


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## BurtonAvenger

Side note has anyone ever eaten Ant Eater? I'm curious if I need to add it to the list of animals I should eat vs the list of animals I have eaten. And don't think for a second I will not eat a Bald Eagle or Panda. There days are numbered I'm going to eat those lil sons of bitches!


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## cjcameron11

hahaha no i havent, but im sure they would taste like racoon or something. Try Kangaroo and Emu if you get a chance, both are nice game meats if cooked correctly. And while on the subject, why not try baby fur seals, or a platypus.


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## fattrav

I want dolphin!


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## cjcameron11

just eat a shonky tuna brand, plenty of dolphin in that, hows kiwi taste?


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## EchelonSnow

ThunderChunky said:


> So basically there are a few major factories that make all the boards, but within the factory is like each companies sub factory?


Yeah- mentioned this a bit earlier, but you can't be faulted for not being able to find it . There are a few major factories, and those factories build for many brands each. Each brand has some of its own shapes, molds, etc. They may also have exclusive technologies or tooling that can only be used by them. When you are making a board, each model gets what is called a BOM or bill of materials; it defines all the technical details for the workers and the production/technical supervisor, who ensures that the line workers understand each model (what molds, core types, sidewall color and composition, sidewall or cap construction, and more)l. After that, it is like Henry ford up in therer . Except there is no rolling belt, instead things are divided into stations, and boards are transferred from station to station on big racks. Depending on board features, it might skip stations once in a while, like UV or base diecutting fir example.

Btw, I'm replying now because a lot of the time I'll need to be skyping w/the factory late at night; ningbo is ~15 hours ahead so it's ~5pm there. This is really one of the worst aspects of overseas construction, and why I support asimovs 'move underground and convert to universal time' concept... Only half kidding there . Baby was crying anyway, so no big deal - just trying to fall back to sleep now .


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## fattrav

cjcameron11 said:


> just eat a shonky tuna brand, plenty of dolphin in that, hows kiwi taste?


Like golden chicken, but gamier. It's great roasted with a chicken stock gravy and a dash of salt.


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## BurtonAvenger

I've had Kangaroo, Racoon, and Dolphin. I want rare exotic animals. Why couldn't they cook those Bengal Tigers that got shot in Ohio? I'd eat me some big pussy!


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## CheeseForSteeze

EchelonSnow said:


> I'll admit, I chose his name because it seemed like a guy people would know, and while I don't follow the sport I bet he could lay waste in a grade school, solo . Tyson seemed bombastic, and I have no tattoos.


Hah, no I was just being an ass trying to justify Sick-Pow to literally fight DLH.


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## romesaz

BurtonAvenger said:


> Like I said brain farting thought I put Arbor in under Elan.
> 
> Eh I think Bob did a great job in that interview with me. Hand waving no System is different than Magnetraction on a Banana and definitely different than Frostbite on a Burton deck. The bent at the middle shape they took from a product catalog but the bumps are a result of a tri radial sidecut that didn't have the radi blended together. When they were making boards with that tri radial cut they would have this area that bumped out they left it on their bent deck to see if it worked. Guess what it did. They single handily gave me faith in boards bent in the center. Still hate MTX and Banana from Mervin though. Shit can suck my balls.
> 
> I'm with you though man Oriental products last me 10 times longer than shit from Austria or the U.S.



Oh, hah! I didn't realize that you were in fact the Angry Boarder .
i've never ridden a Mervin board. It was one of the options I was looking at, but found a wicked deal on last seasons Coda and couldnt pass it up. I'm glad that I've made the right decision. Everyone seems to be in love with that board.

With regards to the interview: I guess it just seemed like there wasn't anything definitive mentioned, so hence why I said "hand waving".

Haven't ridden any chinese-made boards, but I'd definitely consider it as such for future boards. Quality Control has definitely gone up in China. Not just for boards, but in general. Goods are coming out much better.



With regards to board bases: mentioned by Echelon, the GST bases previously (with dimples). I had no idea about this. But I guess that explains why my friend's Arbor roundhouse from 07/08 has dimples in his base, but my Coda does not.


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## cjcameron11

Doesn't everything taste like chicken? I ate gator when I lived in Louisiana, that tastes like chicken


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## BurtonAvenger

Dolphin is like a more chewy Tuna actually. Gator is more gamey I think than chicken and a bit tougher to chew through depending on how its cooked. Now you guys want to talk about a treat I got to eat Polar Bear when I was a kid. Damn that was good eats.


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## cjcameron11

yeah it def depends on how its cooked, i agree gator is more chewy than chicken and slightly stronger taste but it is still similar in my taste buds. Emu (tastes gamey like deer), its actually purple meat before its cooked and you can really only put it on the grill for about 4 minutes and have it medium rare or it will be way too tough. I would love to try bear. I have had snake also and i liked that, kinda a mix between chicken and fish i reckon.


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## BurtonAvenger

Snowolf said:


> Really? That surprises me because I have had black bear and I hated it. But my taster may be fucked up because the gator I had tasted more like beef to me......:dunno:
> 
> I have had dog ( have some Navajo friends on the res ) and it was actually quite good...


Black bear is a garbage feeder so that doesn't surprise me. I've had that along with brown bear. Dog is stringy and tough but not as bad as cat. I never want to eat cat again.


----------



## Leo

ThunderChunky said:


> I guess we have different interpretations of the English language. The first lesson of economics in a capital market is that the consumers have control over the companies through their purchases. *It's about making more money and becoming larger, that's why they go overseas.* If it were like you said then every single snowboard manufacturer would be overseas...


Only skimmed this thread, but I have something to say about this comment.

I don't know your major, but I have a B.S. in Business Administration. In exactly 0 of my economics classes have I heard that companies only outsource in order to increase profits. That is a misconception birthed by the general public. There's absolutely zero doubt that some do in fact outsource/offshore to cut costs and fill the wallets of the execs. However, there are many companies that simply cannot survive if they keep production in the U.S. Levis is a prime example. They kept everything in the States until they could no longer afford to. They did everything in their power to let go of their U.S. employees with minimal negative effect. They gave them severance pay and even bonuses. Offered free training so that they can pick up new skills to help them qualify for other jobs. They donated to the state they were in (I don't remember off hand). The highlight of this act is that they did not have to do this. The execs in fact sacrificed their profits to do this. Outstanding. 

Realize that companies like Levis exist. In order to maintain their business, outsourcing/offshoring is needed. This is because all of their major competitors are doing the same thing. Whether or not you agree with this type of economy is irrelevant. This is the reality and it's not going to change.

I like buying American if I can, but that purchase has to be justified. "Made In U.S.A." means nothing to me if the product isn't quality. Many of you also need to realize that even if you see that phrase on a product, it's not always the case. Take a look at the Big 3 Automakers. They push the American thing big time. Yet Ford works very closely with Mazda, Chrysler with Mitsubishi, etc... Not to mention that they do a lot of their production offshore as well. For example, many of your Fords are built in Mexico. Ironic because Mitsubishi, Honda, and Toyota have plants in America employing many Americans.

If you really want to make a smart purchase, take the "Made In USA" one step further... BUY LOCAL. Obviously if it's a difference of substantial savings, go for the other guy. However, it it's a matter of chump change for you, get the local guy. That's how you can actually make a big difference.


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## CheeseForSteeze

Snowolf said:


> Really? That surprises me because I have had black bear and I hated it. But my taster may be fucked up because the gator I had tasted more like beef to me......:dunno:
> 
> I have had dog ( have some Navajo friends on the res ) and it was actually quite good...


I actually like venison. I don't find it to be too gamey or lean at all. A good deerburger sounds tasty right about now.

There was a place in Breckenridge (Mi Casa) I remember going to and they had Bison fajitas which were awesome. Although, that was years ago and nostalgia may be making me remember them more fondly than they actually tasted.


----------



## Leo

You guys are really talking about eating all these exotic animals right now? Wow, I thought my diet was strange.


----------



## Justin

lol i haven't had anything to specail. I have had cairbou, elk, bison, deer, and moose. I think i like elk and cairbou the best. I don't care for the texture of bison, it all seems a bit softer like prime rib. I like new york strip steak and i think you get that texture more with the elk and cairbou. I did have the opportunity to eat dog once when i was young but passed up on it. kinda wish i did just to try it. i hear horse is good too.


----------



## david_z

hey guys where are Rome snowboards made?


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## Justin

duh, same place caribou are made. old news.


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## BurtonAvenger

Snowolf said:


> So what you`re saying is you don`t eat pussy? :cheeky4:
> 
> That makes sense though about the difference between a Black Bear`s diet and a Polar Bear; hadn't considered that. Ever had Caribou? It is the best game I have ever eaten though Moose runs a close second.


I'm not down with tongue punching the queef hole if that's what you're implying.

I've had elk, caribou, moose, bison, all the relatively easy meats to get. Almost got me a Pika the other day I'd have roasted that little fucker on a spit in the parking lot at A basin.


----------



## ThunderChunky

david_z said:


> hey guys where are Rome snowboards made?


Antarctica


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## Sick-Pow

BurtonAvenger said:


> I'm not down with tongue punching the queef hole if that's what you're implying.


You have been banging too many working girls at the Brek bar scene (see other thread on prostitution for point of reference) to want to dine at the Y.


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## BurtonAvenger

I don't bang my employees!


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## Sick-Pow

BurtonAvenger said:


> I don't bang my employees!


ZING!!!!!!! Cue the big baller pimping music.


----------



## bheise225

david_z said:


> hey guys where are Rome snowboards made?


Nidecker Group owns Rome SDS and they are made at a factory in Taiwan by a company/supplier called Playmaker. The boards are only "designed" in Vermot but they are mfg overseas.

For a good reference use this link:

Snowboard Factories & brands - Google Sheets


----------



## bseracka

bheise225 said:


> Nidecker Group owns Rome SDS and they are made at a factory in Taiwan by a company/supplier called Playmaker. The boards are only "designed" in Vermot but they are mfg overseas.
> 
> For a good reference use this link:
> 
> Snowboard Factories & brands - Google Sheets


Thanks 11 years later this information is insanely helpful. As a community we were never able to figure it out


----------



## SandPounder

bheise225 said:


> Nidecker Group owns Rome SDS and they are made at a factory in Taiwan by a company/supplier called Playmaker. The boards are only "designed" in Vermot but they are mfg overseas.
> 
> For a good reference use this link:
> 
> Snowboard Factories & brands - Google Sheets


Just a quick correction: Rome boards are currently made at the SWS Factory in Dubai, UAE. They moved all of the production there about 4 years ago. SWS also makes boards for Arbor, Jones, Yes, Bataleon and others. They are a killer factory and the Rome boards ride great.


----------

