# Counter Rotation (Back arm Coming Forward)



## jjz (Feb 14, 2012)

Thinking back to last season i remember how when i was riding on ungroomed chopped up bumpy snow my back arm would always come forward.

On groomers i could carve fast without any back arm movement. 

Is it bad that on chop my back arm comes forward.


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## Donutz (May 12, 2010)

Was your arm simply coming forward, or were you rotating your upper body to face forward? Probably the latter.

If Snowolf comes on-thread he'll fill you in with more detail, but basically if you've already rotated your body forward, you'll find that your board wants to turn that way to follow, making heelside turns not only easy but unintended -- like you go over a bump and lose contact with the snow, when you come down you'll be in falling leaf position, followed immediately by cab snow-angel. At the same time, toeside turns become more difficult and frankly more likely to cause a muscle pull IMO.

One trick some people use is to grab their pants legs with both hands so the upper body stays parallel to the board. But do _something._ You have to break this habit.


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## Chandler789 (Oct 7, 2012)

Donutz said:


> One trick some people use is to grab their pants legs with both hands so the upper body stays parallel to the board. But do _something._ You have to break this habit.


I like that, I am trying to get my girlfriend into riding with me and she is not very balanced, and she is fairly stubborn once she becomes frustrated. That is a good learning tool to remember. +1


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## slyder (Jan 18, 2010)

Donutz said:


> followed immediately by cab snow-angel.


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## SnowOwl (Jun 11, 2012)

^^ I think I found that one missing piece that will make carving that much easier.:thumbsup:


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## jjz (Feb 14, 2012)

*awesome*

Thanks for the great answer, I will try what you said, with the arm movements while straight lining. I will try also throwing my back arm in the opposite direction i am turning (Pullng my back hand back while making toeside turns). 

Unfortunately where i live (southern Ontario) there is a lack of high level snowboard instructors, rarely will i see a level 2 and i have never found a level 3 instructor that actually teaches and doesnt manage . there is also a lack of intense terrain. I have been to utah twice and the runs we have at most compare to the easiest double blacks in utah or the harder single blacks. The only thing we have is ice. 


Snowolf said:


> *"cab snow angel"*
> 
> Hahaha that one cracked me up. We have all experienced that one!
> 
> ...


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## Alpine Duke (Jun 21, 2015)

Just a technical forum question. 

In the above JJZ quotes a post from snowwolf that is from this thread.....except that ....this post isn't found in the thread?? And there is no hate in it or any other reason I might think an admin might delete it. What gives here? Can a member get in so much hot water that they delete ALL of his/her posts??

And....my post is 7 of 8 but there are only 7 posts???


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## wrathfuldeity (Oct 5, 2007)

Its a looong story...better left in the anals of history


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## Kenai (Dec 15, 2013)

wrathfuldeity said:


> Its a looong story...better left in the anals of history


Some might prefer it be left in the annals of history, but I'm not judging! :grin:


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## Deacon (Mar 2, 2013)

Alpine Duke said:


> Just a technical forum question.
> 
> In the above JJZ quotes a post from snowwolf that is from this thread.....except that ....this post isn't found in the thread?? And there is no hate in it or any other reason I might think an admin might delete it. What gives here? Can a member get in so much hot water that they delete ALL of his/her posts??
> 
> And....my post is 7 of 8 but there are only 7 posts???


Former prominent member that left and deleted all his posts.


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## Sons of Thunder (Mar 24, 2015)

Kenai said:


> Some might prefer it be left in the annals of history, but I'm not judging! :grin:


He knows what he was saying.


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## MMSlasher (Mar 18, 2016)

Dam, I wasn't here in 2012, but that was a thoughtful, informative and thorough post. I would have liked to seen more posts like this by him before he deleted them.


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## jae (Nov 27, 2015)

I wanna know! pm me! 

dude is on point with explanations and how to fix problems. wish he was still here

or do I?


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## SnowDragon (Apr 23, 2012)

Briefly...
Snowolf was a prominent member on the forum.
Posted a lot of helpful advice about riding technique.

Got involved with Never Summer in creating a forum board review group for their boards.
There was an uproar about having a group dedicated (at least initially) to reviewing strictly Never Summer boards.
Questions about independence and objectivity.

Snowolf got seriously pissed about the backlash and angrily left the forum, deleting all of his posts, many of which were helpful riding technique posts.


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## Morzak (Dec 22, 2016)

That's a shame that post was really well written and contained some good explanations and tips. I find it interesting that now a days the stationary upper body is such a big focus. Back in the day (like late 90's ) every Instructor I had did teach upper body rotation for drifted turns meaning open (+) position over for backside turns and closed position on frontside turns (-). For me that is still very helpful in steep and uneven terrain especially since I didn't ride for a good 4 years or so.


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## Snow Hound (Jul 21, 2012)

Left and took ball. It's a real shame but the fact that he would do that gives some insight to his personality. Dude took himself seriously.


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## jae (Nov 27, 2015)

doing some quick google-fu only shows him riding for Palestine according to his last youtube post.


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## SnowDragon (Apr 23, 2012)

Good find jae.

Must be him.
He was always adamant about his right to not wear a helmet.:wink::grin:


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## SnowDragon (Apr 23, 2012)

FWIW, I found three videos he made in 2008-09.
Beginner and intermediate snowboarding.

Link to the first...


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## SGboarder (Jun 24, 2012)

The forum is much better off without him. While he provided some good technique explanations, he was a true 'armchair quarterback' (ie those can't doe teach). Just look at his riding in the videos to see that he himself was not using most of the 'proper' concepts and techniques that he 'taught', instead just skidding his way down intermediate runs.
He also had pretty strong political views with very little tolerance for other opinions. 
Finally, he was at the vanguard of the 'partnership' of the forum with NS which caused a massive forum war and badly split the community.


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## Alpine Duke (Jun 21, 2015)

Morzak said:


> That's a shame that post was really well written and contained some good explanations and tips. I find it interesting that now a days the stationary upper body is such a big focus. Back in the day (like late 90's ) every Instructor I had did teach upper body rotation for drifted turns meaning open (+) position over for backside turns and closed position on frontside turns (-). For me *that is still very helpful in steep and uneven terrain *especially since I didn't ride for a good 4 years or so.


I hear ya Morzak, but it doesn't make it the best thing to do. That is.....if I understand what you are talking about. Moving your shoulder from side to side is the right thing.....but if it is counterbalancing......and I think that is what you are talking about....it can eventually impede progress and one hits a wall. 

I have decades of hmmm....i wouldn't call it counter rotation but more....counter balance going on with my arms. My ski patrol instructor was about to start following my down the hill with a taser to get me to stop. Soooo hard to give it up after that long. And to me I was thinking "thats what I need for balance". I am jussst starting to be able to give it up now but it takes constant thought about my technique. It isn't natural muscle memory. If I hit steep, choppy then I immediately slip back into it without making myself go counter to my intuitive style. BUT.....I am seeing the benefits. It is beneficial to learn to snowboard without needing your arms for ANY of the balancing; counter rotation or just counter balance. Part of that being that using one's arms that way will often force one's upper body (front shoulder) away from where it should be. No throwing the upper body 

Someone else posted this vid in a thread about having one's back arm in the air like a vertical stabilizer  Which, unfortunately, is another arm balance maneuver that I was guilty of for sooooo long that it is tough to shed.

About a minute into it he points out the former way of the 80s/90s with all of the counter arm balance.....and for me it is a "hey wait I kind of do that"  What can I say.....back when I started there were no instructors......just "Winter Waves" by Burton to watch and copy  But I am now a believer of not using one's arms as counter balance.....just working on perfecting it  Note that he isn't a believer of a dead body either.....like a zombie.....just not using one's arms as counter weights. He focuses on suggested drills using cross under.....but in a nutshell, one of the main takehomes is not to counter balance.  I NOW think he is spot on. But it was hard for me to get there  Mostly because it made me seem worse off for a while...before I was able to start improving again. BUT....it did help me break through that wall.


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## Fielding (Feb 15, 2015)

That RK video spoke to me too. The thing that I am surprised that nobody picked up on was that he labels as "dogshit" the riding style that puts your shoulders parallel to your board. You know, like when you hold on to your pant's legs to prevent yourself from rotating your upper body. As I understand it, this style, the one that he affectionately calls "the corpse," is currently 100% endorsed and taught by CASI instructors as correct riding. Folks seem to endorse it in this thread above. Why? It's ugly and uncomfortable. Stylistically speaking, I think I'd actually rather see a rider crack the whip (I totally do that after 6 or 8 beers!) than go down the mountain looking like a recently unearthed mummy.


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## SnowDragon (Apr 23, 2012)

Fielding said:


> That RK video spoke to me too. The thing that I am surprised that nobody picked up on was that he labels as "dogshit" the riding style that puts your shoulders parallel to your board. You know, like when you hold on to your pant's legs to prevent yourself from rotating your upper body. As I understand it, this style, the one that he affectionately calls "the corpse," is currently 100% endorsed and taught by CASI instructors as correct riding. Folks seem to endorse it in this thread above. Why? It's ugly and uncomfortable. Stylistically speaking, I think I'd actually rather see a rider crack the whip (I totally do that after 6 or 8 beers!) than go down the mountain looking like a recently unearthed mummy.


Interesting.
I wonder if CASI will eventually relax "the corpse" requirement in its next review of teaching principles.
These things are not unchangeable, but yes, "the corpse" is the current standard that must be taught.

I didn't notice that he explained WHY "the corpse" is not a good riding stance though.


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## Fielding (Feb 15, 2015)

GreyDragon said:


> Interesting.
> I wonder if CASI will eventually relax "the corpse" requirement in its next review of teaching principles.
> These things are not unchangeable, but yes, "the corpse" is the current standard that must be taught.
> 
> I didn't notice that he explained WHY "the corpse" is not a good riding stance though.


Allow me a few cracks at it: 

Severely limits the rider's vision on heelside. This is bad in both turning directions.

Causes neck strain

Stiff and unyielding and therefore makes it difficult to respond to variable surface conditions

Makes real carving harder, not easier because it's harder to center rider's weight over middle board 

Harder to decamber a stiff camber board with finesse

Not comfortable for someone who doesn't want to ride duck stance. (Must we all duck?)

Looks ugly 

Doesn't feel good

It's dogshit


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## Alpine Duke (Jun 21, 2015)

in my instruction we were taught front shoulder on heelside of the board for heelside turn and shoulder on toeside for a toeside turn. Not by much mind you. He gave us a practice drill of having our front hand out and dribbling a basketball on the side we were turning. Meaning, for me riding regular; dribble portside on and heelside and starboard for a toeside. Knees bent to get low without bending over. I was used to throwing both arms out on my toeside when doing a heelside turn (counter balance) which keeps the front shoulder on the toeside even while doing a heelside turn.

i don't know about Canada...but around here they have noobs do the "hands over ends of the board and stand straight" to keep them from picking up any counter rotation. But they don't stick with it.


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## wrathfuldeity (Oct 5, 2007)

every thing can be laid out on a spectrum....from beginner to expert and beyond...and thus at different points on the continuum call for different interventions/teaching metaphors that help the student. First, becoming aware of the problem/issue. Secondary to give them skills to deal with the task that needs to be learned. And lastly, that they can become proficient and beyond to integration > synthesis > evolve....only to find new challenges at the subsequent higher level.

Problems arise when the intervention/teaching task is not well matched or inappropriately/mis-applied to what the student needs to learn at the time. 

My 2 cents


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## Funks (Dec 28, 2015)

Donutz said:


> One trick some people use is to grab their pants legs with both hands so the upper body stays parallel to the board. But do _something._ You have to break this habit.


They can also "Wag" the tail (trailing hand) when turning and make sure it's inline with the tail of the snowboard. Very very hard to counter rotate when the rear arm / hand is in line with the tail. I force myself to continually do this and my riding has gotten a lot smoother.


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## Morzak (Dec 22, 2016)

Alpine Duke said:


> I hear ya Morzak, but it doesn't make it the best thing to do. That is.....if I understand what you are talking about. Moving your shoulder from side to side is the right thing.....but if it is counterbalancing......and I think that is what you are talking about....it can eventually impede progress and one hits a wall.
> 
> I have decades of hmmm....i wouldn't call it counter rotation but more....counter balance going on with my arms. My ski patrol instructor was about to start following my down the hill with a taser to get me to stop. Soooo hard to give it up after that long. And to me I was thinking "thats what I need for balance". I am jussst starting to be able to give it up now but it takes constant thought about my technique. It isn't natural muscle memory. If I hit steep, choppy then I immediately slip back into it without making myself go counter to my intuitive style. BUT.....I am seeing the benefits. It is beneficial to learn to snowboard without needing your arms for ANY of the balancing; counter rotation or just counter balance. Part of that being that using one's arms that way will often force one's upper body (front shoulder) away from where it should be. No throwing the upper body
> 
> ...


No it's not counter balacing, it's pre rotating, meaning before the FS turn you rotate shoulders/hips over the toeside edge and then de pressure the board so it comes around quickly. Same for Backside but with shoulders/hip rotating over the heelside. I might explain it badly....

Personally I still have Issues with Steep Bumpy terrain if the Visibility isn't good, I tend to get in the backseat and not bend my knees enough. Sometimes I counter Rotate or balance in those instances. I actually try to use the cross unders shown in the Knapton videos more in the steeps and it works fine.

and like wrathfuldeity said all those techniques have their place, and are usefull in different stages of learning or different terrain imho.


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## Rogue (Nov 29, 2014)

jae said:


> doing some quick google-fu only shows him riding for Palestine according to his last youtube post. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HdvjLXTCCNQ


No shit that is Mt. Hood Meadows right there, right along the ridge above lower Heather Canyon to Shooting Star lift


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## Deacon (Mar 2, 2013)

Morzak said:


> No it's not counter balacing, it's pre rotating, meaning before the FS turn you rotate shoulders/hips over the toeside edge and then de pressure the board so it comes around quickly. Same for Backside but with shoulders/hip rotating over the heelside. I might explain it badly....
> 
> Personally I still have Issues with Steep Bumpy terrain if the Visibility isn't good, I tend to get in the backseat and not bend my knees enough. Sometimes I counter Rotate or balance in those instances. I actually try to use the cross unders shown in the Knapton videos more in the steeps and it works fine.
> 
> and like wrathfuldeity said all those techniques have their place, and are usefull in different stages of learning or different terrain imho.


I was thinking about this after riding the tight steep trees at Boho... Then Sunday they didn't open the lifts, so I didn't get to try it. I'm going to do that swinging my arm and shoulder as i ride past the tree would help pre-load my turn as opposed to kicking the turn and then having to have my upper body catch up. I'm going to try this on some moguls at home, since we have no good trees to ride.


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