# Back of binding rising off the board.



## Adam718 (Jan 15, 2015)

Im newish to snowboarding and had a question that might be silly and obvious: i just bought a custom flying v and installed my union force bindings on it yesterday (the bindings came with disks and screws to be compatible with channel system) and when i hold the board down and pull on the back of the bindings hard enough, the heal comes up off the board slightly (maybe 1/4 to 1/2 an inch). Is this a problem? Or is that normal?

The screws are very tight and secure, and the bindings feel solid otherwise.


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## Psi-Man (Aug 31, 2009)

A 1/2 inch! Sorry, I'm not familiar with the channel system, but this just doesn't sound right to me.


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## Motogp990 (Mar 10, 2013)

Adam718 said:


> i hold the board down and pull on the back of the bindings hard enough, the heal comes up off the board slightly (maybe 1/4 to 1/2 an inch).
> The screws are very tight and secure, and the bindings feel solid otherwise.


How hard are you pulling up?
If you're yanking with the force of 10 men, it's going to lift a bit or even break regardless of correct installation.

If you're sure you tightened sufficiently and the bindings feel solid, you're probably ok.

Take some pics of how far you're lifting the binding off the board, if you want a more accurate assessment.


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## vajohn (Jan 12, 2014)

I am not familiar with those bindings, but if you can lift it 1/2" off the deck you've got some issues there. I was a little concerned when I first got the malavita reflex because they would do the same thing, but only slightly (not on a channel board though). I have not even thought about it until I saw your post...love the feel of the bindings and have no issues, they actually feel really close to riding est bindings on a channel board. 

I had some lower end Unions at one point, forget which model. I really liked them on my freestyle deck, but they flexed and creaked a bit much for me...I don't think they were designed to handle somebody my size. I gave them to my nephew who is a much smaller guy and they are still fine. I think my Unions were urethane injected or something like that and supposed to be pretty flexible, but again...lifting 1/2" off the deck sounds like a serious issue if that is actually happening.


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## ItchEtrigR (Jan 1, 2012)

It's normal, it's nothing you have to be worried about.


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## deagol (Mar 26, 2014)

I have no firsthand experience with the Channel system, but something like this is what I was worried about when I first saw the channel. Someone who uses the channel system will hopefully chime in. When I saw Burton went to that system, I decided to never buy a Burton snowboard again, since I am way skeptical of it.


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## vajohn (Jan 12, 2014)

I have been using the channel system for a pretty long time, but only with est bindings. It is very solid system with the est bindings on there in my experience....especially considering I am not a small guy and have put it through some serious abuse. Not having any plastic under foot feels incredible. I trust it 100 % even though I was also skeptical at first...I would not be launching kickers or running wide open over 60 mph on it otherwise. However, I have never tried non-est bindings on it so not really sure what is going on with those unions on the channel...should have bought some est cartels or malavitas.


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## Adam718 (Jan 15, 2015)

I spoke to burton and sent then a few images. They said it was just the the natural flex that happens with the channel system so it should be ok. Heres an image of what it looks like with and without my pulling on the binding. I wouldnt want to ride with other bindings - love these puppies.


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## Snow Hound (Jul 21, 2012)

Oh my stop! Never ride that defective crap. Send it straight to me and I will despose of it accordingly.

You are flexing the base of the binding. It is supposed to flex. More noticable on an EST board board but then that is the point of an EST board.

Maybe try pushing the binding through the board, as that is how you apply edge pressure when actually riding, and take some pictures to show us what happens.


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## JohnnyO83 (Nov 7, 2014)

This looks normal. The EST only has a fastener on each side, mid foot and a flexible bottom plate. It's only natural for the back and front of that binding to lift under force. There's nothing holding it down and your foot is leveraging back and forth with your body weight. Almost reminds me of the was NOW bindings work.


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## dlk142 (11 mo ago)

Adam718 said:


> Im newish to snowboarding and had a question that might be silly and obvious: i just bought a custom flying v and installed my union force bindings on it yesterday (the bindings came with disks and screws to be compatible with channel system) and when i hold the board down and pull on the back of the bindings hard enough, the heal comes up off the board slightly (maybe 1/4 to 1/2 an inch). Is this a problem? Or is that normal?
> 
> The screws are very tight and secure, and the bindings feel solid otherwise.


I have this issue as well. I am surprised more people don't have it. I originally had the Cartel EST and did not have a problem. I thought it would be nice to use the new step ons, but forgot to check if they were EST and they are not as of Feb 2022, so they are mounted with 2 screws underfoot and my bindings also lift off the board. I can feel a delay in the turn since I do not have the leverage to turn until the bindings pull on the board after it lifts. 
You would not tell somebody that it is okay if their heel lifts up in the boot. THIS IS NOT OKAY and is a design defect.


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## bseracka (Nov 14, 2011)

dlk142 said:


> You would not tell somebody that it is okay if their heel lifts up in the boot. THIS IS NOT OKAY and is a design defect.


Meh, I wouldn't say it's a design defect at all and rather a lesser use case scenario for the design. Remember the channel system was designed around the use of est bindings. When the product is used as designed it works as designed and the heel lift phenomena does not occur. What Burton and other manufacturers have found is that they can safely mount non-est bindings to the channel as well; but based on the standard binding design there are some trade-offs when used in the channel instead of a traditional mounting setup. There is after all a reason traditional bindings have 4 mounting screws and not 2.


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## dlk142 (11 mo ago)

bseracka said:


> Meh, I wouldn't say it's a design defect at all and rather a lesser use case scenario for the design. Remember the channel system was designed around the use of est bindings. When the product is used as designed it works as designed and the heel lift phenomena does not occur. What Burton and other manufacturers have found is that they can safely mount non-est bindings to the channel as well; but based on the standard binding design there are some trade-offs when used in the channel instead of a traditional mounting setup. There is after all a reason traditional bindings have 4 mounting screws and not 2.


Good point. Would a car manufacturer let you put on tires that are not rated for your car- NO. However once you leave the lot, you can do whatever you want. 

The burton dealers should be instructed with this information so that the buyer is aware if you mount the step-ins that are not EST onto an EST board that this could happen. 
I now need to buy a new non-Burton board to use my Burton Step on bindings.


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## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

dlk142 said:


> I have this issue as well. I am surprised more people don't have it. I originally had the Cartel EST and did not have a problem. I thought it would be nice to use the new step ons, but forgot to check if they were EST and they are not as of Feb 2022, so they are mounted with 2 screws underfoot and my bindings also lift off the board. I can feel a delay in the turn since I do not have the leverage to turn until the bindings pull on the board after it lifts.
> You would not tell somebody that it is okay if their heel lifts up in the boot. THIS IS NOT OKAY and is a design defect.


More people don't "have this issue" because it is not an issue.

The PURPOSE and INTENT of the channel is precisely to allow the board and bindings to flex independently so that it feels more "natural" under your feet instead of having a rigid mount.

Now/Jones bindings visibly do this, and it is in fact a power feature to have (as in, it is actually a marked improvement in performance by having the binding pivot, and lift toe to heel). Lots of other bindings have this feature and "hide it" with a rubber/urethane/foam underneath the baseplate.

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## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

dlk142 said:


> Good point. Would a car manufacturer let you put on tires that are not rated for your car- NO. However once you leave the lot, you can do whatever you want.
> 
> The burton dealers should be instructed with this information so that the buyer is aware if you mount the step-ins that are not EST onto an EST board that this could happen.
> I now need to buy a new non-Burton board to use my Burton Step on bindings.


LOL

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## dlk142 (11 mo ago)

F1EA said:


> More people don't "have this issue" because it is not an issue.
> 
> The PURPOSE and INTENT of the channel is precisely to allow the board and bindings to flex independently so that it feels more "natural" under your feet instead of having a rigid mount.
> 
> ...


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## dlk142 (11 mo ago)

My problem is not with the EST system and bindings. I originally had the Cartel EST and did not have a problem. I upgraded to the Burton Step in, which is NOT est and since there are only 2 screws under the foot for the old 4 screw system, my bindings lift up a bit on the front and the back. Therefore, I cannot engage in my turn until the bindings are done lifting to give me leverage.


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## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

dlk142 said:


> My problem is not with the EST system and bindings. I originally had the Cartel EST and did not have a problem. I upgraded to the Burton Step in, which is NOT est and since there are only 2 screws under the foot for the old 4 screw system, my bindings lift up a bit on the front and the back. Therefore, I cannot engage in my turn until the bindings are done lifting to give me leverage.


Yes, i understand. My post is entirely related to Reflex (and other non-EST) bindings mounted on the Channel. 

Nothing changes.

There is zero issue and you haven't heard about it, because there is NO problem. 

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## dlk142 (11 mo ago)

F1EA said:


> Yes, i understand. My post is entirely related to Reflex (and other non-EST) bindings mounted on the Channel.
> 
> Nothing changes.
> 
> ...


But I do have an issue, which is why I posted here. Are you saying that it is okay that the bindings lift up?


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## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

dlk142 said:


> But I do have an issue, which is why I posted here. Are you saying that it is okay that the bindings lift up?
> View attachment 162018


Waaaait a minute. You DO have an issue. Looks like you're using the wrong channel hardware or you're mounting something wrong (like missing a washer, not tight enough, or something like that)...

The rear and front would lift, but not that much unless you're a World Strongest Man contestant.

How old is that board?



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## dlk142 (11 mo ago)

F1EA said:


> Waaaait a minute. You DO have an issue. Looks like you're using the wrong channel hardware or you're mounting something wrong (like missing a washer, not tight enough, or something like that)...
> 
> The rear and front would lift, but not that much unless you're a World Strongest Man contestant.
> 
> ...


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## dlk142 (11 mo ago)

I went to the Burton store in Park City and he showed me that this happens on their display board. Their advice was to increase the toe lift and to move my bindings up a bit (there were on the screw holes that were one up from this picture), but that did not help. 
I have been emailing Burton and they informed me that the bindings come with 2 screws. the M5 is silver and meant for the standard 4 screws into the 4 screw board. I am clearly using the black M6 screws. I contacted the Burton store in New York and they ordered new bindings for me and told me to come in once they receive them. However, this is 2-3 hours out of my day to go there. There was nothing that they could do for me over the phone. I hope to make it there next weekend. 
Also, I might make it to Darkside in Killington who installed it. 

My board is a 2018 custom X.


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## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

dlk142 said:


> I went to the Burton store in Park City and he showed me that this happens on their display board. Their advice was to increase the toe lift and to move my bindings up a bit (there were on the screw holes that were one up from this picture), but that did not help.
> I have been emailing Burton and they informed me that the bindings come with 2 screws. the M5 is silver and meant for the standard 4 screws into the 4 screw board. I am clearly using the black M6 screws. I contacted the Burton store in New York and they ordered new bindings for me and told me to come in once they receive them. However, this is 2-3 hours out of my day to go there. There was nothing that they could do for me over the phone. I hope to make it there next weekend.
> Also, I might make it to Darkside in Killington who installed it.
> 
> ...


Yeah the 2018 board should be fine with modern binding hardware.

I would bring the board when you go get the replacement in case there's something wrong with your board.

I mounted a set of new Reflex Cartel X on my friend's board this weekend with this same disc and there was zero issues. Also i know a couple people who have mounted Step Ons and no issues. 
I have Reflex bindings on a channel board as we speak, and there's no issue. Also have mounted a bunch of Reflex on channel boards and they're all fine.

You were on the wrong holes first, but if the bindings lift that much when properly screwed then there's something wrong somewhere. They should lift when pulled really hard... but we're talking a couple millimeters not 5mm+ like you showed in that one photo.

Maybe wrong channel inserts? (the two little slider things that go inside the channel and you screw the hardware to...)

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## dlk142 (11 mo ago)

F1EA said:


> Yeah the 2018 board should be fine with modern binding hardware.
> 
> I would bring the board when you go get the replacement in case there's something wrong with your board.
> 
> ...


Have you used any of the new Burton Step in bindings? Upon further examination, it is not the screws, it is the binding itself.
There are gaps in the plastic on the back thefore these is no support under the back of the bindings to prevent it from lifting up. I hope it is not a waste of the day tomorrow to go to the Burton store to see if this can be resolved or if it is a design flaw on the new step in bindings.


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## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

dlk142 said:


> Have you used any of the new Burton Step in bindings? Upon further examination, it is not the screws, it is the binding itself.
> There are gaps in the plastic on the back thefore these is no support under the back of the bindings to prevent it from lifting up. I hope it is not a waste of the day tomorrow to go to the Burton store to see if this can be resolved or if it is a design flaw on the new step in bindings.


Not the new ones. Tried the older ones for a couple laps and there's nothing wrong with em; but it's not something i want. For me, strapping in and out is a non-issue.

I don't know what issue you have specifically... but you needed someone else to mount your bindings (Darkside shop) and here you are unveiling "design flaws" in a product tons of people are using without issues. I'd say just go to the store you got them and either get something else or get an opinion from somebody who can actually see what you're dealing with.

As far as I can tell, and have seen... the design seems fine:









I see absolutely nothing to worry about in terms of design there in those videos. So if there's gaps or play... maybe it's purposeful (as in not a design "flaw" but a design "feature" and they are meant to lift a little. As explained before, that has its benefits. 

But hey, maybe you're onto something and there's something wrong with your bindings. All i know is winter's too short and fresh pow lasts too little to worry about a product you don't like. You should be able to return it if you don't like how it works. 

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## Jimi7 (Jan 14, 2020)

Deleted....


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## dlk142 (11 mo ago)

Jimi7 said:


> It's not an issue. Bindings flex. If you don't want your bindings to flex, get some stiff carbon or metal bindings. Stiffer bindings will respond faster as well, but you'll get more feedback and they'll catch edges easier/faster.


Hi Jimi-

Yes, this is starting to make sense? Why would you be more prone to catch an edge if the bindings are stiffer and more responsive?


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## dlk142 (11 mo ago)

Jimi7 said:


> Deleted....


Hi Jimi-

As I am learning, Burton calls it Re-Flex and there needs to be some give. After being told through email from Burton that it should not lift, I am learning that it should and needs to have some give. Burton's original step-on was too responsive so this is built in for flex. 
The associate at the Burton Store in NYC said that normal bindings do not catch until your boot hits the straps so there is supposed to be some lag (flex), since i have the Step-on, there is no lag so they make the bindings flex.


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## Jimi7 (Jan 14, 2020)

dlk142 said:


> Hi Jimi-
> 
> Yes, this is starting to make sense? Why would you be more prone to catch an edge if the bindings are stiffer and more responsive?


The "catch" feeds back to you harder and faster with stiffer bindings (same goes for the board and boots). Basically, the responsiveness works both ways.


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## Jimi7 (Jan 14, 2020)

dlk142 said:


> Hi Jimi-
> 
> As I am learning, Burton calls it Re-Flex and there needs to be some give. After being told through email from Burton that it should not lift, I am learning that it should and needs to have some give. Burton's original step-on was too responsive so this is built in for flex.
> The associate at the Burton Store in NYC said that normal bindings do not catch until your boot hits the straps so there is supposed to be some lag (flex), since i have the Step-on, there is no lag so they make the bindings flex.


Interesting. Glad you got it sorted out. If they're going for a similar response as their Cartels, then building a little lag into the binding makes sense. I know early reviews of the step-on system said they were really responsive. Sounds like Burton has determined that the step-ons were too responsive for their target audience. 

The more I learn about Burton's step-on system, the happier I am that I stuck with Flows. That said, the Burton system seems to be the best of the current step-in/on systems. K2 had a recall and the CLEW version doesn't strike me as very appealing. Nidecker's new quick entry system looks like it could be a real winner.


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