# Pleading for help from an expert boot fitter or anyone else that has had cramps...



## dfischer (Jun 1, 2012)

I have issue with feet cramping bad. A sensation that hurts my foot and makes it feel like I must take a break from my run. Very debilitating. I'm getting depressed because its holding me back.

I had burton raptors. Same issue. Just picked up k2 thraxis. Same issue. At least it's easier to adjust with 3 boas but fk same issue. I thought it would be fixed with a more adaptable expensive boot.

I don't have the privilege of a good boot fitter locally. I live in Los Angeles and there isn't anyone very helpful around here that knows boots too well bc there's not that much snowboarding for this city.

I tried Aline insoles. I have a slight probation in my feet. I went to the doctor to find this out as I had similar issues when working out and I had rather tight cross training shoes on. I never get this pain when I'm just walking. It's only during very active times. Foot doctor said my pronation happens because my foot gets a bit swollen and causes pressure to shift towards my arch which also causes it to flatten out as a consequence. But I tried an Aline custom sole specifically for pronation and they tested my feet and recommended this. No luck in my boots. I tried with and without. The cramp still happens.

I'm not sure what to try anymore. It's really depressing. I love snowboarding but I'm seriously getting held back because I have to stop so much or I avoid progressing because of the pain.

My foot is normal width according to the foot measure thing at boot stores. But maybe it truly is a width issue with my foot getting swollen? I have nothing else to try. Maybe I'll pick up those Solomon wide models.

By any chance has anyone gone through this? Is there a possibility my feet are cramping in these new k2's because it was my first day riding or does it already sound like a bad fit? I thought it was pretty comfy outside of riding compared to my raptors and definitely no heel lift. Had some in my raptors. 

The k2 feels very snug. No movement at all unless I really try to push my heel out my pushing down with my front toes very hard.

When I went up today I got my usual pain in the beginning and then I tried to make the k2 boots as loose as possible for the lower end of the boot and I still had pain. I ended up only trying to tighten the top boa out of the three. The one that brings the bulk of the mid to upper boot to your calf and foot and despite this looseness I still had cramping.

I tried to Make boot tight as possible at end of the day to try to mold liner. Hurt. Cramped / uncomfortable. I guess no one is making their boot as tight as possible for a day right? Unless I'm completely wrong and this means I need a super wide boot or something.

So whether I go light or tight I still get cramping. The only time I don't notice it as much is at the end of the day after 5 hours when I've just dealt with it and also became numb to the sensation but not completely. I wish it were my legs that hurt over my feet because at least that would be easier to solve. *tear*

Anyway. Sorry for the wall of text. I'm in dire need of help and tried to be as detailed as possible. Hopefully a boot fitter can comment or a person that has had this issue. Thank you!

edit: I do get a weird pressure point on my right with the k2's compared to the left but it's my upper front leg towards tongue of boot. Not really related to foot. I also can't move my foot. Barley play piano with my toes. Someone said they doubt it's related to width...


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## arrrmaty (Jan 4, 2013)

Sounds like you have a whole mess of issues. I used to fit boots for a couple years, so maybe I can help a little bit. One thing that you might consider that can cause some major issues is your bindings. A couple quick things that can cause cramping and pressure points from your bindings-

Forward Lean- A lot of times, especially if you are not use to it, having too much forward lean can cause your tendons and your arch to constrict. Check your forward lean settings and reduce them, maybe remove all forward lean so your highbacks are straight up, then see if that makes any difference.

Binding Straps- There are all kinds of different straps nowadays, some are wider and some are skinny and each kind can cause different pressure points depending on the shape of each persons foot. I have flat feet with virtually no arch on bottom, buy the top of my foot has a high arch. I find that a narrow strap fits way more comfortably over my ankle than a big fat/wide strap and reduces pressure for my foot shape. Check your straps and maybe strap your foot into some different ones and see if you feel any extra or reduced pressure from the different bindings

You can losen your boots, just like you tried, but then when you crank down your binding staps it almost negates your lose boots.

Also, a stiff boot will be more rigid and have less "give" and so may be causeing unecessary pressure points. Try a softer boot with more flex and see if that makes any difference.

For me, BOA's don't work very well with my foot shape and the placement of my ankle bones. I find the cable cuts into my ankle bones because of where they are positioned. Plus, a steel cable will not have any "give" so may not allow your feet to circulate properly and move with your foot/ankle. Try traditional laces.

Never wear more than one pair of socks as this often causes the circulation to be cut off to your feet. The best socks I have ever used are smartwool- they keep my feet warm, but never overheated and my feet always come out dry no matter what the weather and snow is like during the day.

Don't overtighten your liner, keep it snug, but not restrictive

Let me know if any of these things help and we'll go from there


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## jtg (Dec 11, 2012)

I've gone through similar, and understand your frustration. There are a lot of potential causes of foot pain, and a lot of types of deformed feet, so my experience (or anyone else's) may not help much. Personally I have semi-flat feet, and most of my pain was coming from the balls of my foot. For what it's worth, I went from not being able to make it through a run without stopping multiple times due to foot pain, to having slight discomfort but it not really being an issue. Cat tracks on my toe side were pure agony. After doing all of the following, some combination of this led to improvement:

Superfeet inserts didn't help at all, tried them briefly, got rid of them.

Had custom footbeds made at a local ski shop. Cost was about $160, and I stood in some things I would describe as plastic memory foam. They used the impression to put a fiberglass insert into and take the shape. Tried them for one day, and it seemed like there may have been some improvement, but not nearly enough. Still couldn't get through runs without pain.

Returned to the shop, they shaved the footbeds a bit, and said the fronts of them seemed a little wrong. They also did some slight modifications to my boots in areas that I reported pressure.

In the same visit, I bought some new bindings that had some padding under the foot (I kinda doubt this was the issue, but mine were old/cheap anyway). People seemed to suggest bindings a lot, but I really doubt this is a major factor in cases like us, because you mention having pain in other activities such as working out. 

Since then, I also have been take Ibuprofen before my first run. This helps with inflammation/swelling, but you should be aware of the health risks of doing this habitually: For Athletes, Risks From Ibuprofen Use - NYTimes.com

The last few times out with the above formula let me have a good time. Another factor could have been just breaking my feet in more as well.

tl;dr - you're probably going to need to find a bootfitter that you can make multiple visits to, and who can make you footbeds


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## BurtonAvenger (Aug 14, 2007)

Planar Fascitis? Or however it's spelled.

Broke your foot, dislocated your ankle, nerve damage, pins, plates, screws, slipping disks, circulation issues, etc. etc.?

Alines suck in my opinion. You probably need a real orthodic made by a real boot footer. Its more than likely not the boots at all it's the lack of support and correction of the problems you have.


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## dfischer (Jun 1, 2012)

Thanks all. I had some custom footbeds made today. Cost $240 but they specialize in Ski/Snowboarding. Hopefully it'll help but I have an inkling feeling that I need a wider snowboard boot.

I'm returning my K2 Thraxis. I'm going to buy a pair of 32's, DC's, and Salomon (wides) and go from there.

Thirty-Two will be TM model. Salomon will be Synapse or Dialogue Wide, and DC will be Judge BOA.

Between the three I'll have three brands and 3 different types of laces and hopefully I'll be able to figure it out from there.

Thanks all.


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## snowklinger (Aug 30, 2011)

The tm-two is a great boot imo :thumbsup:


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## dfischer (Jun 1, 2012)

I have tried a K2 Thraxis and a DC Judge boot now. The Thraxis caused a lot of cramping no matter what I did. I ran with the DC Judge's today and felt cramping in my first run. On my second I tried to fiddle around and pay some serious attention to where it's hurting.

It hurts the most on any narrow lines. That means whenever I'm on one edge is when my foot starts cramping. I'm trying to figure out a reason for this. The biggest issue I see may be that my foot is pushing against the insole of my boot in order to stay on toe side or heel side. Toe side hurts the most and cramps the easiest.

Overall If I try to focus on relaxing my feet as much as possible and leaning into the tongue of my boot to go toeside I have less pain, although it's still there.

Another issue came up today and I noticed that as the day went on and got a little hot (SoCal) my feet were extremely sweaty in my socks and it felt slippery which was causing me to perform worse. However the boot is snug all around and my toes touch the tip so not sure why it feels slippery if it's snug but it does. Anyone else feel that?

I've tried boot size 12 on all of these. Someone suggested I go a size smaller but I don't see how that would be possible if I am touching the front with my big toe already and one or two more.

I ordered some Salmon Synapse Wide's as well but I didn't try them out at all because they come out about 1 1/2" on my toeside and I don't like the idea of having that much overhang and washing out.

I have some 32 Focus's coming in the mail and I'll compare that to the DC Judge's and pick from there.

So far it seems that a wider boot seems to be helping the cramps and less tension on the foot.

Anyone have some overall comments on my experience or suggestions of what else to try?

For sure not my bindings... if anyone suggests that.

P.s I got a custom footbed from Sure foot ($240. Ouch.). Doesn't seem like it's a magical cure and I can't tell if it's helping that much but my doctor told me I need a footbed to avoid lower back pain so I'll keep it in. I was diagnosed with plantar fasciitis.


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## lonerider (Apr 10, 2009)

dfischer said:


> P.s I got a custom footbed from Sure foot ($240. Ouch.). Doesn't seem like it's a magical cure and I can't tell if it's helping that much but my doctor told me I need a footbed to avoid lower back pain so I'll keep it in. I was diagnosed with plantar fasciitis.


I found Surefoot was better than stock... but not the best (BurtonAvenger is not a fan of them - he likes to call the "sorefoot")... I personally really like Sole Supports.

For plantar fasciitis... look for a foot doctor that has an EPAT machine, that things are completely changed my feet.


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## BurtonAvenger (Aug 14, 2007)

Sounds like your boot is too fucking big.


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## dfischer (Jun 1, 2012)

Burton Avenger...

My feet are size 12 on the foot measure thing.

If my big toe touches before the rest what am I supposed to do? I can't stuff it any further.


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## lonerider (Apr 10, 2009)

dfischer said:


> Burton Avenger...
> 
> My feet are size 12 on the foot measure thing.
> 
> If my big toe touches before the rest what am I supposed to do? I can't stuff it any further.


He might mean boot volume (in addition to length, there is height and width)... is there a lot of space above your foot or to the sides? That's just my guess.


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## dfischer (Jun 1, 2012)

If anything not enough on my instep. Always get more pressure there on my right foot compared to left. Haven't found a boot that helps with my high instep. 

Well I guess I'll see how the 32's fit compared to DC Judge's. I might try a 11.5 but doubt it'll fit.


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## arrrmaty (Jan 4, 2013)

dfischer said:


> For sure not my bindings... if anyone suggests that.


Sorry, but how do you know it's not your bindings? For as many boots as you've tried you can't really just throw out the idea that your bindings have nothing to do with foot comfort- cause they do. And it can't hurt to TRY a couple different bindings. They can really make a difference when you find some bindings that are comfortable and fit your foot and boot better, you will notice a difference.

Also, it seems that most of the boots you've tried are pretty stiff, why not try a really soft flex boot and see if that makes a difference?


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## kevano (Jan 12, 2012)

I've experienced what you describe twice: 

The first time I had boots that had too short and wide. My toes were touching, but there was so much room for the rest of my foot to move. That is probably some of the most pain I've experienced from any equipment.

The second was tightening my bindings too much. I really tighten my boots and bindings because I like that secure and in-control feeling. But I noticed I can overdo it sometimes. You don't even realize it, but I've started just pushing the heel strap tight without using the ratchet. Then giving it 1 or 2 clicks. That's all you really need.


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## JeffreyCH (Nov 21, 2009)

Couple other things to consider since you have tried several boots. 

Anti-inflammatory meds: someone else touched on this, I take ibuprofen before I ride most of the time. (more because I am old and beat up rather then swelling/cramping)

Potassium: helps with cramping, take pills or eat bananas 

Stretching: what kind of workout/ stretching routine do you do? If none, you might want to look into it.


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## wrathfuldeity (Oct 5, 2007)

to add to JeffreyCH's list:

Hydration and compression sleves on the calves. Idk not a doc but my legs and feet always cramp the first few runs till about mid season...i think they call it building up lactic acid tolerance and the ability to flush it out. I always eat a banana, drink plenty of h2o, ibuprofen and compression sleves on the calves and it all helps. I also have high arch/instep and use ed vissures sole footbeds.


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## jtg (Dec 11, 2012)

So contrary to my last post, I went out again and it was pretty much agony instantly. Did like half a run and sat down for a good 10 minutes to wait for the balls of my feet to stop throbbing.

The only difference is I haven't been out in a few weeks, and I took the ibuprofen *right* before going up, so it probably wasn't doing anything yet. The rest of the day was mostly fine...a bit of soreness, but I could ride through it.

That tells me that it's either the ibuprofen, or my feet need breaking in if I don't ride often enough...or a bit of both. It doesn't seem like the footbeds are doing anything.

I'll probably stick to what I have for now, and maybe eventually go back to the podiatrist and pay him $400 or whatever for real orthotics that probably will not do anything either.


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## scottb7 (Nov 19, 2012)

i almost always have 0 problems. but i have noticed that if i ride on the magic carpet, or if i ride up rope tows goofy then i get cramping in my right foot. 

since i 0 problems otherwise, i have concluded it is not the boot, or binding. I believe it is something to do with muscle's i use when standing/riding at certain angles.


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## Listheeb21 (Jan 20, 2011)

I have the same problem, but it's been much worse lately. It bothers me before I strap into the bindings, so i don't think thats the main culprit. I have high arches, and do have custom insoles, but mainly I think, as BA mentioned, that it is because of a slight deformity in my left foot following surgery. No need for the gory details, but my pinky toe is not where it should be.

That said, can the shell of a boot be stretched? I'm hoping a slight modification in the width of the shell might alleviate the pressure and make it, at the very least, more tolerable.


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## ElPolloDiablo (Feb 10, 2012)

*Foot cramping*

My wife had a problem with her feet cramping almost every night after work. She would also get them when we would snowboard, mainly when she was bucking in after we'd get off the lift.

I bought her one of these a few months ago:
Amazon.com: Medi-Dyne ProStretch Unilateral Stretching System: Health & Personal Care

She uses it every night to stretch out her feet. You can really sink your foot down and flex it better than any other options.

That combined with increasing the amount of water she drinks and adding a banana in her lunch have pretty much removed all foot cramping.


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## mb889 (Feb 14, 2012)

I feel you. I had the exact same problems. My situation was solved with diff boots. I bought some K2 Darko, and I swear after 2-3 runs I had to take a break. I think the K2's are great boots, but they just didn't fit my skinny foot. I still have the boots and think about trying them to see if it comes back, or maybe sell them. I switched to some Nike Zf1. I honestly don't want to like them, But guess what? No more pain/cramping. I can tell you why I don't want to like them, but lack of pain makes me forget about all of those things when I'm boarding. :dunno:


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## dfischer (Jun 1, 2012)

Update:

After many many boots I've tried on I found that 32's seem to fit me. I've had long issues with cramping which I've posted here. My issue is related to Plantar Fasciitis, Foot Swelling, and needing a wide area/high instep. 32 fits the bill.

I got 32 Focus Boa's on me. And 32 Prime's. I am sized to a foot 12. The Focus Boa's are 12. The Prime's are 11.5.

All the boots I ever wore have been size 12 but all those boots in general have caused me foot cramping. Which I believe to be a combination of the issues I posted above, and slight foot movement, especially on toe side. My feet tense up on toe side trying to counteract the movement in the boot.

Overall the 32 feels more snug than any boot I tried, even the 12. The 11.5 is very snug, almost too snug but my toes aren't curling. They're definitely all packed in the front. I do have a sense of tingling/numbness when walking but if I lean hard into the boot it goes away. On the 12's (Focus) I can wiggle my toes up and down. On the 11.5's (Prime), I can't really wiggle my toes much. There's a good amount of pressure coming downward from the top right before my toes. I'm not sure if this is good or bad. Definitely a sense of numbness / stiffness initially but maybe this is what I need?

If I kick my heel down on my 32 Focus, then wiggle my toes and try to touch the front with my toe I can't feel the end with too much pressure. Maybe it's perfect, maybe it's a few cm off from touching? If I take the liner out and push my foot to the toebox area as hard as possible I can stick 1 1/2 fingers behind my heel. 

If I kick my heel down on my 32 Primes, then wiggle my toes... I barley can. And I am definitely touching the front of the boot in a very contact way with at least 3 front toes. It's uncomfortable compared to the Focus's but maybe this is what I need? If I take the liner out of the bood and slam my toes into the front and try to put a finger behind my heel... I can do 1 finger.

My concern is that the Focus's will pack out and I'll have the same issue as the other boots. My concern is also that the Prime's are way too tight and it feels like it's squeezing my foot and will not help with the wideness / swelling issue I have. But perhaps the pack out will make it a perfect fit? 

What would you guys do? I'm leaving to Whistler for a few weeks and I can take both with me and return one but I'd feel bad because I already did that with one boot from backcountry.com. Plus packing both may be difficult. 

Thoughts?


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## kevano (Jan 12, 2012)

How does the 32 feel around your foot? They are typically a wide boot. So, if it's not snug around your foot it's a recipe for disaster. 

This is exactly what happened to me. I needed a smaller boot and focused so much on length I ignored width and volume. I was in intense pain after an hour on the mountain.


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## dfischer (Jun 1, 2012)

The 12's feel good around my foot. Very snug but toes have some wiggle room and it feels like the front two touch but they're not packed in. The 11.5's feel insanely snug, they are definitely uncomfortable. Toes can't wiggle up down much, all toes are basically at the tip and it is a feeling of numbness in middle toe.


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## kevano (Jan 12, 2012)

And by snug you mean around the entire forefoot? What do you measure for foot width?

From the sound of things you may be better off trying a Prime 12 and comparing it to the focus. Your toes should touch when standing and pull off when you really flex it.


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## dfischer (Jun 1, 2012)

Checking in...

I'm still having the same problem. 

Right now I am trying out some Van's sized 11 that was lent to me by a camp I'm at in Whistler. It's new.

It's very snug. My foot fits. It seems like it's a half size smaller than my 12 32 focus.

I'm still getting some cramps on my lead food only. In fact, by end of day it was numbness instead of cramps. Not sure why this is happening.

I'm not sure what else to try. Next day up I'll maybe try riding the boots really loose but if my feet still go numb not sure what to do. I've got Flow NX2 GT bindings now as well to try something different than the Cartels.

Another thing I noticed is that if I go toeside, the front of my foot (toes) push down for balance and maybe this is contributing to the cramping a bit. I can't move my toes/feet at all in terms of wiggle room, at least not more than a mm maybe. The vans are quite snug. I've tried the 32's both very tight and loose and I usually end up with same issues.

I am trying to think of maybe figuring out if it makes sense to have my surefoot custom sole made with a ramp towards the front of my toes to push them up higher? Anyone ever hear of that?


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## MochaBeans (Feb 1, 2013)

It might actually be partly your bindings. When I used my burton freestyles, the ankle strap caused some pain on the inner/top part of my foot. With my rome 390 bosses, that pain is gone. 
Maybe try changing up your stance/binding angles? From what I've read around here, having your feet in unnatural positions may cause some problems too.


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## dfischer (Jun 1, 2012)

What type of stance has the least amount of pressure on outside of feet and offers good control for all mountain freestyle?


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## tanscrazydaisy (Mar 11, 2013)

Too bad going to the east coast is not an option...

as Jeff Rich @ U.S. Orthotic Center, Jeffrey Rich, Pedorthist in NYC made a orthotic for my DC Judge Boa Focus a few years ago. He's one of the Gurus behind America's Best Bootfitter program (Shintronic)

I have a mid-high arch that collapses a bit...

he evaluated my boots and found them acceptable.... took a mold of my feet and made me custom orthotics.

Keep in mind, with new boots, the liners do "pack out", that also affects the fit later on.

Maybe try:
Custom Boot Fitting | SkiNet Sports in LA. though it looks like he starts out with something like an instaprint (designed by Jeff Rich).... and possibly makes additional modifications...

I've had instaprints from a local shop that were horrible, as well....

imo, the best bootfitters should also be a pedorthist... but they are far and few, and can charge a premium.


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## East§ide (Mar 14, 2011)

I had alot of similar problems as you.. I have almost completely flat feet...next to no arch whatsoever, and when I put my weight down on my feet, the probably widen by about 30%...i imagine this is from years and years of wearing skate shoes, sanuks and flip flops. I had Burton Ozone's, Salomon Factions, Vans Revere and all of them hurt..I tried 4 different brands of insoles ranging in price from 20-80$ and they did very little to help. In fact, they tended to cause MORE pain because of my low arches.
I kept hearing great things about Rome boots and went and tried on a pair of Libertines. I found that they had a consistent width throughout, and TONS of padding and cushion inside. My back foot cramps up occasionally on my first run of the day with them , but other than that, they are the most comfortable boots I've ever put on. I have also decided to steer clear of Boa and Speed Zone lacing type systems..with regular laces, I simply CAN'T overtighten the outside of the boot, yet i can still control where i tighten certain areas. I would really recommend giving them a try if you havent already. They changed everything for me and have really made my riding much more pleasant.


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