# Flat runs riding?



## skip11 (Jan 28, 2010)

Hi, I'm new to the forum and a new rider too. I've been boarding a total of 3 times now. I've looked and snowolf and snoprorick instuction videos and it helps alot. I pretty much got toeside and heelside turn even though I still fall at times and it is still not good/smooth (with more practice I should be able to get this down quick). I've looked but I seem to cannot find info on how to ride on flats. This is my biggest problem. I always got stuck on flats. My friends said to keep my feet flat and its true that I can go fast. However, I always feel like catching an edge when my feet are flat (and did catch an edge couple of times) which leads me to braking and getting stuck at flat runs. Are you suppose to keep your feet flat or maintain a slight edge? I tried maintaining a slight toe edge but ended up moving to the left (I'm goofy).


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## Surrendermonkey (Jan 14, 2010)

That's one of the worst things about being a boarder, the flat transfer runs are killers.

However, there is a few things you can do to avoid this problem. First check out snowolf's video on cat tracks and dynamic skidded turns. 

The basic idea is that you keep a very, very slight edge, then turn to the other edge and keep a very slight edge there for a while. It should be very close to just being flat, but not quite as that leads to edge catching as you've found. Basically, the more edge you're using, the more speed you lose.

Ohh, and keep an eye open as far ahead as you can, and use the slope to build up speed for the flat part, and then conserve that speed as much as you can by using very long shallow 'turns'. But in the end, flats are always going to be the doom of snowboarders, and you'll never have as easy a time of it as a skier has.


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## skip11 (Jan 28, 2010)

Hmm.. So you do toeside-heelside really quickly? I don't think I'm able to do that just yet. I think I'm going up to whistler again next week, gotta practice that. Also another question I have. For toeside turns, I ended up doing kinda like a skidded turns instead of a more carve-like turn. This doesn't happen on my heelside turns though. I'm wondering how to fix this. I also find that bending my knees more and doing an up and down movement (don't know how to explain this, but it looks kind of the dynamic turns posted by snowolf) really helps turning instead of just staying up right. When I stay upright, I tend to catch an edge.


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## Tarzanman (Dec 20, 2008)

There isn't always a way to ride through flats well that won't sap your strength or endurance quickly.

There are times that you have to maintain continuous pressure on an edge to keep from sliding farther down the hill (if you are doing a side traverse)...
and there are times that you can maintain a relatively flat board, but this requires a lot of knee bend angle to keep from tipping over as your board shunts on the snow

You'll evolve different techniques as you learn better control over your board. Overall, the best technique is to get good enough at riding switch to allow you to rest one set of muscles when they get too fatigued. 

The fact is that locmoting yourself on a snowboard takes a lot of effort without gravity to do most of the work


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## Surrendermonkey (Jan 14, 2010)

skip11 said:


> I also find that bending my knees more and doing an up and down movement (don't know how to explain this, but it looks kind of the dynamic turns posted by snowolf) really helps turning instead of just staying up right. When I stay upright, I tend to catch an edge.


You should never, absolutely never, be on your board with completely straight legs. If your legs are straight it means that the knees are locked in position, which in turn means that your entire lower body are locked in position. Not to mention that bending your knees allows you to weather the small bumps when you run across them. 

But yes, you've found a important part of riding there. The up and down movement you describe involves having very bended knees when you're going across the slope right, then straightening out slightly as you initiate the turn and as you finish the turn going down in the knees again, right?



> The fact is that locmoting yourself on a snowboard takes a lot of effort without gravity to do most of the work


The worst part is when you're standing there on the flat, and your skiing friends come by and starts laughing at you. Now THAT is annoying!


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## Guest (Jan 28, 2010)

I try and never spend too much time having the board perfectly flat... try and find a slight edge and carry some speed through an uphill section or a flat section.... I am still riding the Green runs and they are littered with flat spots and small risers.... you just need to look ahead and prepare yourself... try and look for speed to carry you through but I would be on an edge for sure...


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## david_z (Dec 14, 2009)

skip11 said:


> Hmm.. So you do toeside-heelside really quickly? I don't think I'm able to do that just yet.


Don't do it quickly. I mean, the act of shifting from toe- to heel-side should be quick and fluid, but you're going to want to stay on one edge for a while - how long you can hold this edge will depend on your riding ability & conditioning, as others have mentioned, keepting that calf muscle tensed like that when riding especially toe edge tends to be strength-sapping


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## Guest (Jan 28, 2010)

Surrendermonkey said:


> You should never, absolutely never, be on your board with completely straight legs. If your legs are straight it means that the knees are locked in position, which in turn means that your entire lower body are locked in position. Not to mention that bending your knees allows you to weather the small bumps when you run across them.
> 
> But yes, you've found a important part of riding there. The up and down movement you describe involves having very bended knees when you're going across the slope right, then straightening out slightly as you initiate the turn and as you finish the turn going down in the knees again, right?
> 
> ...


 - Mean! I skied for years before trying snowboarding and I always helped my friends on snowboards through the flats... let the hold my ski poles and I would tow them. you need nicer friends!


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## skip11 (Jan 28, 2010)

Thanks for the help guys, I'll keep all these in mind the next time I go boarding .



> But yes, you've found a important part of riding there. The up and down movement you describe involves having very bended knees when you're going across the slope right, then straightening out slightly as you initiate the turn and as you finish the turn going down in the knees again, right?


Yes this is what I mean. Without doing the up and down movement, I find it hard and not natural when doing turns.


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## dharmashred (Apr 16, 2009)

Here's Snowolf's cat track vid. This should help! All the instructional vids are sticky'd at the top. Keep at it, it will all start to come together soon!

YouTube - Riding On Cat Tracks


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## skip11 (Jan 28, 2010)

Ok so an update. I just got back from whistler (blackcomb mountain specifically) and I still have some problems.

1. I'm pretty comfortable on doing flat runs now, the only problem is I cannot do those short skidded turns that SnoWolf demonstrated. For some ungodly reason, I can only do either heel side or toe side (I can only do a very slight edge change)when riding on flats. Most of the time after the board points forward when I try to change/transition edge (heel to toe for example)it goes back to the heel side. 

2. I still have some problems linking turns on hard packed snow, I tried linking turns on softer more fluffy snow and its much easier. Also according to my friend, I tend turn in a very large arc (hmm.. maybe looks something like a C, but not a perfect C turns) on my toeside turns. Towards the end of the day, I think I didnt put my hips forward enough like snowolf showed for my toeside turns. Furthermore, I tend to slow down by quite a bit when trying to link turns instead of a fluid movement.

3. On the cat track video, snowolf mentioned that its just shifting your weight back and forth. When doing that, do you still initiate the start of these "small turns" by using your front foot? or its more like both feet shifts at the same time?

Any tips or cues that I should remember next time I go ride?


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## Surrendermonkey (Jan 14, 2010)

> 1. I'm pretty comfortable on doing flat runs now, the only problem is I cannot do those short skidded turns that SnoWolf demonstrated. For some ungodly reason, I can only do either heel side or toe side (I can only do a very slight edge change)when riding on flats. Most of the time after the board points forward when I try to change/transition edge (heel to toe for example)it goes back to the heel side.


When you're trying to change from heel side on a flat run you still need to position your weight correctly and keep pressuring the toe edge, if you do that I don't really see how it can go back to the heelside?

On the wide linked C turns, that is fine. You start by doing wide comfortable linked turns, as you get better your turns will get smaller. And it is entirely a issue of experience, just get out there practice.



skip11 said:


> 3. On the cat track video, snowolf mentioned that its just shifting your weight back and forth. When doing that, do you still initiate the start of these "small turns" by using your front foot? or its more like both feet shifts at the same time?


The purpose of putting weight on your front foot is to twist the board and get it pointing toward the fall line. If you're riding on flat runs, your board is already pointing almost completely in that direction, so only a very slight twist is necessary to change it that little bit you need.


Serendipity, they do help me, after laughing. I don't really mind them laughing, it's just for fun after all. And I get to laugh at them whenever we're in deep snow and they lose a ski, then they have a really harsh walk uphill in ski boots through deep snow to look for it.


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## skip11 (Jan 28, 2010)

> When you're trying to change from heel side on a flat run you still need to position your weight correctly and keep pressuring the toe edge, if you do that I don't really see how it can go back to the heelside?


I'm sorry I didn't explain this clearly. It feels like I can't keep the pressure on the toe edge. I don't know, I think it's because the board tends to tip up more than I wanted to and also the fear of catching an edge.



> The purpose of putting weight on your front foot is to twist the board and get it pointing toward the fall line. If you're riding on flat runs, your board is already pointing almost completely in that direction, so only a very slight twist is necessary to change it that little bit you need.


Ahh I see, thanks for clearing this up :thumbsup:


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## rasmasyean (Jan 26, 2008)

There's some discussion about it here too. Maybe it will help too.
http://www.snowboardingforum.com/tips-tricks-instructors/24603-flat-base-help.html


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## Deviant (Dec 22, 2009)

> I'm sorry I didn't explain this clearly. It feels like I can't keep the pressure on the toe edge. I don't know, I think it's because the board tends to tip up more than I wanted to and also the fear of catching an edge.


In my opinion, most toeside issues are from not bending the knees enough. I just read through this super-quick so if anyone suggested this ignore me, but try resting your shins on the top of your boots when you go into a toeside. Keeping the knees bent, with that forward pressure will make riding on a toeside edge much easier. I have a friend who described a similar problem when learning. He said he couldn't get a solid feel on his toes, he described it as "pushing your toes down like a gas pedal in a car" and it felt very weird for him. He was standing too straight up, his weight was over his heels and he was trying to get on the toeside edge just pushing his toes towards the snow. If that's what you're doing you may notice some strain in your calf muscles. He started resting his shins on the boots and bending his knees more than he "thought he should" and it fixed the problem pretty quickly.

If that isn't the problem I apologize, but it just reminded me of his situation and it was an easy fix.


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## skip11 (Jan 28, 2010)

Yes I figured that out towards the end of the day when I was out of the cat track. I should try it the next time I go up . Thanks for the help guys, keep em coming!


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