# Let's Talk early season snowpack.



## killclimbz (Aug 10, 2007)

Wow, not much a response here.

The Utah Avalanche Center has put out their report on the Jamie Pierre accident. It's a good read. Lot's of things can be learned from this.


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## ShredLife (Feb 6, 2010)

i really find it strange that this one went down like this. i'd chalk it all up to early season powderlust causing these guys to make some really bad decisions. 

first, i find it hard to believe that they could set off a slide the size of the one in Peruvian without noticing it. that was such a large slab - and it was triggered from below! that right there would be enough to send me home i had showed up without avy gear (WTF????!?), or at least i'd like to think so. 

no avy gear..... its just... just.... SMH

then to make the decision to ride that slope... that is a terrain trap. if it goes where are you gonna go? just looking at it it doesn't even seem like there would be enough snow to create and avalanche but like killz has reiterated; deep enough to ride, deep enough to slide. these are things we need to evaluate when we are out in the mts.

vibes for the family and friends.


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## snowvols (Apr 16, 2008)

I haven't been on my computer for a couple days so I haven't been able to talk about this. 

The report from the UAC is pretty good. Both accidents that occured on Sunday, the Jamie Pierre and also a skier broke his femur earlier in the day. I know shit was really bad. Just look at the UAC site and on Sunday it is straight Avalanche reports. 

I have had the pleasure of working night shift this week so I get to ride during the day. A few interesting notes I have seen inbounds. A guy might have dropped his glove under the lift :dunno: but he walked right up to a cliff band and stopped and turned around. If you follow his footsteps there is a lot of cracking and collapsing on the snow pack where he walked. I don't know how your guys snowpack is shaping up but anything in the NW-E facing stuff is pretty much a no go right now with the old October snow on it. This was my biggest fear when we had that storm.

The slide in peruvian that they didn't notice is HUGE!!! How do you not notice that? I hate to say anything bad but that is one of those it happens and you get out of where you are.

Here is the write up of the other accident in case you are interested
http://utahavalanchecenter.org/accident_gunsight_11132011


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## wrathfuldeity (Oct 5, 2007)

killz,
Thanks for linking the report and the pics...very informative. I'm getting through "Staying Alive in Avalanche Terrain," "The Avalanche Handbook" and anticipate taking a class later; anyway lots of stuff to digest and figure out a on the snow framework. Setting off that slide in the bowl, idk how you could not go oh shit. Last year at Baker the had a big slide right by chair 8, the fracture shelf had to be 10-12 feet tall/deep and was reported that the debris piles were over 100+ feet deep.


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## ShredLife (Feb 6, 2010)

i'll preface this by saying i really do feel bad that this happened - it sucks whenever someone dies in the mountains doing what they love.

in my personal experience and observation it's impossible to ignore that lots of high-level climbers, mountaineers (especially), and it stands to follow; riders - there is no doubt that ego comes into play in some of this. i would argue that it is this ego that helps them to perform on such a high level, but it is also needs to be tempered by reason at times. this may have been one of those times that would have benefitted from that. 

if you think about it, Jamie took risks that NO ONE else in the alpine world would really even get near. jumping off a 250 foot cliff?? that is just insane and you have to either not care if you live (which i am not suggesting he did) or have some part of your ego that is telling you that you can do it. i imagine he saw some risk in attempting that line and that excitement had to be a motivating factor for him. 

i am not saying any of this to condemn Jamie's decisions, but to hope to understand the risk factors that we all face in the mountains. we all need to be aware of our own egos and how they may affect the decision making process, when they help us to conquer fears; and when they may start getting us into trouble. just a thought.


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## killclimbz (Aug 10, 2007)

Well since this is thread I created to talk about this a bit more frankly, Jamie should have fucking known this was a dangerous undertaking and he chose to continue on. The big slide aside, he dropped into an obvious terrain trap with very high consequence. He ignored every basic principal. First and foremost not bringing his avy gear. Which I think we all agree wouldn't have saved him, but this game is as much more about mindset than it is gear. Bringing the gear helps put your mindset to the right place. 

snowvols, I agree on the October snows. It is going to be a serious problem for Utah for a good long period this season I think. It's going to take a lot of snow and a lot of time. The deep slab instability may never go away until you get a more isothermic snow pack. The October snows are just getting ready to be a serious problem in Colorado. Shit is all facets from October and almost all aspects that get decent snow cover have some of it. More on shady slopes of course. Pretty soon we are going to get a lot of snow over a short period that is going to load up those slopes. The same feeding frenzy that we saw in Little Cottonwood Canyon is going to happen at places like Berthoud and Loveland Pass. I am expecting a lot of early season slides if this scenario comes to fruition. In spots where we don't usually see them too, which is going to be another problem. 

Do I sound scared? I am...


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## ShredLife (Feb 6, 2010)

yea... it all seems like this accident could have been avoided with some better decision making, but let's not fool ourselves.... the backcountry is a dangerous place. even with making all the right decisions alpine environments are really fun to play in when everything is going right, but can turn deadly at any time. it can be a very inhospitable place for soft, fleshy, fragile human beings. 

a few years ago i decided to guide fishing instead of mountaineering/climbing and the risk/death factor was certainly a part of my decision making process. the only problem is while i love the river, i _need_ the mountains.


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## killclimbz (Aug 10, 2007)

Well I will say that in the US, I have never seen an avalanche accident where there weren't warning signs that the effected party chose to ignore or just didn't notice. There have been a few where I think, if that was me I would have done the same thing. I try to learn from each and every accident out there. It's the best way to honor those who lose their lives playing in the backcountry. 

shred, you are right, we are pretty fragile beings. Lot's of ways to check out of that thing called life...


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## ShredLife (Feb 6, 2010)

sheeeeeet floatation is for pussies... i'll raise you a hard boat 


oh shit. there goes that ego again :laugh:


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## snowvols (Apr 16, 2008)

We are expected to get at least 2 feet of snow I believe this weekend. This will hopefully flush this layer and if not just bury the instability to really eff someones day up. Right behind this storm is supposed to be a larger storm so I am going to be interested to see how it all bonds. 

I take it the CO snowpack will be more effed than normal? I hope not too bad since I am still planning on venturing into your neck of the woods.


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## killclimbz (Aug 10, 2007)

In reality it won't change much of the plan of what we do around here anyway. About the only big difference is we usually get a short window early season that we can safely drop some of the bigger lines. This year, I don't see that being in the cards. Mid season runs are not going to be alpine turns in Colorado regardless. Well treed zones with protected open spaces are our bread and butter around here. Lot's of good fun stuff in that zone so no problem in that regard.


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## Momento (Oct 26, 2011)

The better they get the more they push the limits with the mindset "i done this before so i will be fine.
I am prepared and i know what im doing." And then they just slip up or make a wrong choise. Sometimes the coin falls in their favor and they walk away and the other times they dont. A warning that how good and prepared you are your always taking risks getting hurt and more so if you ignore the warnings.


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## snowvols (Apr 16, 2008)

I was just rereading the report and noticed this little part. How dumb are people? It baffles me when people drop in on one another an especially dropping in on someone who is performing a rescue for someone who was already caught in a slide!?!



> Another word on the incidents (Gunsight at Alta and this Gad Valley one). The rescue teams from the ski areas and Wasatch Backcountry Rescue often put their necks out on the line to access and evacuate an injured party. It was reported that other parties at Alta continued to ski and knock down avalanches into Greeley Bowl while the rescue was in progress. Creating another incident during this situation is unacceptable.


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## killclimbz (Aug 10, 2007)

The cottonwoods are a junk show. Just like any other popular backcountry spot near a metro area. Berthoud is no exception. The only real difference I see with Utah is that the backcountry is fantastic but it's not really all that expansive. So a lot of demand for limited resources. I should say that the Salt Lake City area backcountry is not that expansive. There are definitely well off the beaten path places to go in Utah. 

And yes it is unbelievable. I'm surprised the sheriff didn't arrest those assholes on attempted murder charges, because that it what they were basically doing.


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## killclimbz (Aug 10, 2007)

Momento said:


> The better they get the more they push the limits with the mindset "i done this before so i will be fine.
> I am prepared and i know what im doing." And then they just slip up or make a wrong choise. Sometimes the coin falls in their favor and they walk away and the other times they dont. A warning that how good and prepared you are your always taking risks getting hurt and more so if you ignore the warnings.


That is actually a fairly common theme in avalanche accidents. "I road this all last year no problems, going to do it again this year." The thing is every year is different. There is some terrain out there that certainly that thought pattern works for, other terrain not so much. It's also an easy trap to fall into, and I have to remind myself of this frequently when I am getting out in familiar places like Berthoud or Vail Passes.


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## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

I'm honestly surprised more of these guys aren't killed. The guys who go extreme are always straddling a very fine line.

It's sad when they go, but unfortunately it's predictable. I mean, be honest, of we heard news of Xavier De La Rue getting killed in an avy, could any of us honestly say that we're shocked at the news? These guys definitely practice terrain management and safe travel, but their levels of acceptable risk are far higher than most of ours.


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