# flatground fs180 - carving/edging needed?



## ThisIsSnow (Dec 7, 2013)

Hey guys,

So i've been trying to do a 180 on flat ground. So far, I've managed to (just about) do it by carving onto my heelside - which means i turn to the left, and my f180 becomes more of a fs160 lol.

I've seen people do it really casually, and seemingly without any edging involved. I tried doing that, but usually spin no more than 90 degrees - even if i pre-wind my shoulders, arms and hips.

Am i doing something wrong here? I think I'm winding as hard as I can, but I'm guessing not. Or is it not possible to do a 180 without any edging at all, and the people I see doing them smoothly are just using very little edge angle?

THanks!


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## Alkasquawlik (Jul 13, 2010)

It's all just practice. I can pop a quick 180 without setting an edge, but I've been riding for a while. 

The thing that helped me learn them was to do front 1's on whatever bump, mogul, etc. I could find as I was just riding down the hill. Become a little human tornado. The repetition will help you learn the muscle memory needed, as well as becoming comfortable landing on your switch heel edge. You'll get more comfortable with it, and then you progress onto bigger jumps, spins, or whatever.


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## ThisIsSnow (Dec 7, 2013)

hmm so i'm guessing you started off with edges too, and worked your way to where you are now?


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## Jed (May 11, 2011)

ThisIsSnow said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> So i've been trying to do a 180 on flat ground. So far, I've managed to (just about) do it by carving onto my heelside - which means i turn to the left, and my f180 becomes more of a fs160 lol.
> 
> ...


The trick to this is the timing of everything and it sounds like your timing is off by a little, which is why you aren't getting enough rotation.

The order should be this:

1) Pre-wind as needed (less needed as you get better timing)

2, 3 and 4) Start heelside edge pressure (or carve if you want more power), Start rotating your upper body in frontside spin direction, Start popping up evenly off your legs.

All 3 of these things happen at the same time.

5) Finish carve, finish pop (just about to get airbourne), finish rotating your upper body about 60 to 90 degrees into the fs180.

Notice here that you've timed it so all 3 things (carving, pop motion, upper body starts rotation) start and finish at the same time, and your upper body is leading the rotation (it'll be already almost halfway through the fs 180 by the time you get airbourne for your lower body to follow it).

This timing is the crucial bit and if you're finishing your upper body rotation too soon or doing any of this out of timing, you don't get the power you need to spin easily. Your upper body should always be a little bit ahead of your lower body at the start of the rotation because it needs to leads the spin.

Think of it like this when combining your pop, carve and body rotation to rotate:

- Upper body starts spin and leads your body in the right direction
- Carve builds up power to power your rotation
- Pop releases that power by making you airbourne so your carve power can go where your upper body is already rotating

The better you get at this timing, the less you'll need to rely on carving or edge pressure because you're being so efficient with the small amount of power you get just by pressuring your edge for a split second and combining that with your upper body and pop.

ps - if you want to carve into a spin, you start off coming in at an angle, so that even though your carve makes you turn, you still spin the full rotation (see this post here for a diagram: http://www.snowboardingforum.com/tips-tricks-snowboard-coaching/121897-air-spins-2.html#post1462145)


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## chomps1211 (Mar 30, 2011)

ThisIsSnow said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> So i've been trying to do a 180 on flat ground.
> 
> .....I've seen people do it really casually, and seemingly without any edging involved. I tried doing that, but usually spin no more than 90 degrees - even if i pre-wind my shoulders, arms and hips....


In the same boat, sorta. I've managed to complete maybe 3-4 of these, popping straight off a pretty much flat base. They were God awful clumsy and awkward looking, but I did get all, (...or most I think,) of the 180º's out of them. But I will tell you, they felt an awful lot like work!!!! :dunno: NOT easy, and definitely not steezy!

I feel the same way you do when I see others doing this, with or without ollies/nollies etc. They make it appear as if there is little or no effort involved whatsoever in getting 8-24 inches of air under the board and just landing 180/360º and riding away!

I'm not sure what drills or practice exercises I could do _off_ the hill to improve my chances of stomping these? :dunno:


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## Jed (May 11, 2011)

chomps1211 said:


> In the same boat, sorta. I've managed to complete maybe 3-4 of these, popping straight off a pretty much flat base. They were God awful clumsy and awkward looking, but I did get all, (...or most I think,) of the 180º's out of them. But I will tell you, they felt an awful lot like work!!!! :dunno: NOT easy, and definitely not steezy!
> 
> I feel the same way you do when I see others doing this, with or without ollies/nollies etc. They make it appear as if there is little or no effort involved whatsoever in getting 8-24 inches of air under the board and just landing 180/360º and riding away!
> 
> I'm not sure what drills or practice exercises I could do _off_ the hill to improve my chances of stomping these? :dunno:


The trick is as you get better, your timing gets quicker. So while it looks like they're not doing much and start off on a flat base, they're still doing the same thing as you (even getting on an edge for a split second as they pop and spin), just executed quicker with less wasted movement during the technique.

It's kind of like how when you first started it took ages to go from toe to heel edge on your snowboard, but now you can do it instantly with barely any effort.

Spinning is the same, except obviously it's a more advanced technique with more finicky timing, so there's a lot of wasted movement and extra energy you have to use right now to get your board to spin, but the more precise you get with the timing the less energy/effort you'll require.


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## Aphraidknot (Mar 4, 2013)

ThisIsSnow said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> So i've been trying to do a 180 on flat ground. So far, I've managed to (just about) do it by carving onto my heelside - which means i turn to the left, and my f180 becomes more of a fs160 lol.
> 
> ...


I have been working on the exact same thing. I can actually do BS 180 on flat ground pretty easily and at speed. Its because I feel way more comfortable jumping off my toes. But when it comes to FS, I clumsy. Of course if I start switch and then FS rotate to my normal stance it is much cleaner.


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## Krato (Apr 29, 2013)

You can do them off your toes as well although you ought learn them off your heal. When you go to transition into your toes start your winding motion for the FS and stay back. You want to ollie it more than pop it and you won't really have your upper body with you but now that you are open with your shoulders and popping ollie, you can swing your lower half around 180.

But again you probably want to learn how to spin the right way since this technique is only good for hardside spins onto rails.


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## ThisIsSnow (Dec 7, 2013)

so I figured out what was wrong - it was a combination of poor timing, not carving at an angle, and me not bending my knees/popping as much as i thought i was. 

I'm still working on the timing and I still have to carve in at a slight angle, but at least i'm landing a fs180 semi-consistently now! Although I seem to be leaning back when I jump, because whenever I land I always have more weight over my back foot (the front foot before the jump)...


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## Ndanielson (Jan 20, 2014)

I remember learning to do flat 1's... for me, the fastest way to learn was to go into the jump switch... the landing feels much more natural and almost like a "correction" to normal stance. Its all in the hips, there should be very little windup.


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## Jed (May 11, 2011)

Ndanielson said:


> I remember learning to do flat 1's... for me, the fastest way to learn was to go into the jump switch... the landing feels much more natural and almost like a "correction" to normal stance. Its all in the hips, there should be very little windup.


Yeah that's pretty typical. Switch frontside 180s always feels more natural because your body will always want to go back to your normal regular stance when riding switch.

That's actually a good example of why it's so important to practice and get your 180s feeling natural all 4 ways (fs, bs, switch fs, switch bs) because once that happens you can go to all 4 360s, then all 4 540s etc REALLY quickly and also learn all the variations of spin moves that use those rotations as well (eg 270 on/270 off).


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## jliu (Jan 20, 2009)

Jed said:


> Yeah that's pretty typical. Switch frontside 180s always feels more natural because your body will always want to go back to your normal regular stance when riding switch.
> 
> That's actually a good example of why it's so important to practice and get your 180s feeling natural all 4 ways (fs, bs, switch fs, switch bs) because once that happens you can go to all 4 360s, then all 4 540s etc REALLY quickly and also learn all the variations of spin moves that use those rotations as well (eg 270 on/270 off).


Hey Jed....question for you. It seems like I have difficulties with front side 180s when I 'ollie' into it rather than flat base jump. If I pop off both feet I can manage to the 180 around. However, if I'm popping off the tail i really struggle to bring the back leg around enough b/c it leaves the ground later...does that make any sense? I realized this b/c I'm trying to learn tail butter 180 outs which requires me to ollie into a FS 180. Anything I can focus on? Thx!


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## Casual (Feb 9, 2011)

jliu said:


> Hey Jed....question for you. It seems like I have difficulties with front side 180s when I 'ollie' into it rather than flat base jump. If I pop off both feet I can manage to the 180 around. However, if I'm popping off the tail i really struggle to bring the back leg around enough b/c it leaves the ground later...does that make any sense? I realized this b/c I'm trying to learn tail butter 180 outs which requires me to ollie into a FS 180. Anything I can focus on? Thx!


For a tail press 180 out you should really get into the press and then move both hands around your left hip (for regular), open your shoulders up, pretty much 90' or more to the hill and then pop. Once you pop you only turn your sholders a few more degrees and let your lower body catch up, that will bring it all around super easy.

So basically while you are pressing you wind up like a spring in the direction you want to spin, then pop and your lower body follows your shoulders around.


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## redlude97 (Jan 9, 2008)

I also find it helps if you ollie slightly off a heels


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## Jed (May 11, 2011)

jliu said:


> Hey Jed....question for you. It seems like I have difficulties with front side 180s when I 'ollie' into it rather than flat base jump. If I pop off both feet I can manage to the 180 around. However, if I'm popping off the tail i really struggle to bring the back leg around enough b/c it leaves the ground later...does that make any sense? I realized this b/c I'm trying to learn tail butter 180 outs which requires me to ollie into a FS 180. Anything I can focus on? Thx!


It sounds like you're probably not pre-rotating around frontside (assuming you're ollies are correct) and so when you ollie your lower body isn't following your upper body into the spin like it should.

Basically with tail press frontside 180 out, your upper body should be almost finished with the front 180 by the time you push off your tail and ollie. This way by the time you ollie your lower body just kind of 'snaps' into that 180 since your upper body has already done most of it.

This is assuming you're ollies are correct though, it's possible you aren't loading up your tail enough and you're not doing a proper ollie, hard to say which without video of you.

If you watch the first tutorial video in my free series, there's actually an entire section on ollies and another section on butter 180s, so I'd recommend watching those tutorials if you haven't yet: Free Snowboard Freestyle Lessons & Trick Tips (just fyi - it'll require an email to view and get all the videos in the series).


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## Aphraidknot (Mar 4, 2013)

Been following this thread, heading to Mammoth this weekend to dial in FS. Tailpress to FS 180 out sounds reasonable.


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## behi (Feb 27, 2013)

You definitely don't need any edge whatsoever. I don't have any problem doing a 180 with a completely flat board. 

I usually sit down to strap in. If I'm facing the wrong way, I do a 180 to avoid riding switch - you get quite a bit of practice that way.


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## globoat (Jan 28, 2013)

I can 180 off an edge traversing or on a super flat area but can't do it going down the fall line. I have a feeling someone is going to post a picture of metal balls on me again...


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