# Doing a 180



## uh oh a virus (Jan 19, 2011)

Whenever you are going for a 180, always go frontside. It is just easier. You spin backside if you are going for big rotation like 540+ and frontside for 360- usually. For a tip, spin frontside and always counter rotate. Just wind up your arms, and once you hit the lip of the jump turn your hips to about a 20 degree angle or so for a little extra spin help, and whip your arms around for the 180. Just don't whip them too hard though. 180's are really easy and don't need pre-wind at all, they are really all in the hips, but what I just said is just an easy beginner way to learn.(sorry if this sounds horrible, I can't give tuts =p)


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## threej21 (Jan 2, 2011)

uh oh a virus said:


> Whenever you are going for a 180, always go frontside. It is just easier. You spin backside if you are going for big rotation like 540+ and frontside for 360- usually.


disagree completely....a nice big, slow bs 180 is tits in my book! seen quite a few peeps go both ways on all spins...didnt realize there was a rule that you always go fs for 360s or 180s and bs for anything bigger :laugh:


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## Donutz (May 12, 2010)

If you're at the point where you're starting to think about jumps and spins and such, look up the Snowboard Addiction videos. I bought them last year and they have made a big difference in understanding the mechanics of jumps and such.

You'll get lots of opinions from ppl on this forum (you just did!), and there are a lot of knowledgeable ppl here, but what you need is enough information to decide for yourself what makes sense.

I've been doing what virus says, based on the SA vids. It's important to understand the difference between rotated spins and counter-rotated spins. It's also important to know how you're supposed to land counter-rotated backside spins (you land looking uphill, which is not intuitive).

I know I sound like a shill for the videos, but when I find something that I like, I figure I should pass it on.


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## ShredLife (Feb 6, 2010)

there are no "rotated or counter-rotated" spins in snowboarding. its frontside and backside. we already had the Tony Hawk generation come along and fuck up the naming of FS and BS sliding so lets not go down that path with spinning. you spin frontside or you spin backside. 

one may be easier feeling for YOU but spinning both directions is different for different people. when i was learning to land switch it was easier for me to spin backside and land looking up hill because i tended to wash out my heelside edge on FS 180s 

potato potato tomato tomato. 


if you wanna do a 180: bend your knees, wait till youre almost off the lip and turn your shoulders. your legs should follow.


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## alaric (Aug 28, 2007)

ShredLife said:


> if you wanna do a 180: bend your knees, wait till youre almost off the lip and turn your shoulders. your legs should follow.


best advice given. just do it.


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## slyder (Jan 18, 2010)

ShredLife said:


> there are no "rotated or counter-rotated" spins in snowboarding. its frontside and backside.


Don't agree with this.
one uses a rotation of your entire body, the other uses arms rotating against the legs or hips to stop the rotation.

To Steez's question. I also ride goofy and I think a front 180 is easiest to start. It is a smaller rotation and can be done off flat ground or off a jump or small hill/side hit. I hope your switch riding is good since you will be landing regular to ride off.
Practice in your garage, bedroom, basement just jumping the motion. I still do this quite often. You can then add your board and try jumping it, just lay a blanket, mat or carboard down or do it on the grass to get the feel of the added drag of your board and boots.

Like Donutz I also bought SA's videos and absolutely love them. I feel for me they have been a great teaching tool. Many members have also pointed me into the right direction when I asked for advice or evaluation on my form.

When you do this on the hill or are looking for more input remember to add a video it is so much easier to critique and give advice after seeing you actually perform the move. I got blasted for some bad straight airs videos I posted, but it was all true and helped me to correct my bad form early.

Good luck and have fun
-Slyder


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## ShredLife (Feb 6, 2010)

slyder said:


> Don't agree with this.


it doesn't matter if you agree or not. we're talking about terminology here and there is a right and wrong answer. you can spin frontside, you can spin backside. 

if you need to counter-rotate your body so that you can rotate (wind up so you can spin) then that's fine, you're like everyone else on the planet who's bound by physics - but don't go fucking with snowboarding terminology - fuck!


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## slyder (Jan 18, 2010)

Don't you use counter rotation for landing on boxes?? I know it may be per the trick you are performing. But if you didn't, sorry if using wrong terms, rotate your arms the opposite way how do you stop the spin. Especially when on boxes??

Wolf I think it just clicked correct me if I'm wrong. No matter what it is a FS/BS spin it's just that on some tricks you want your upper body to spin in the opposite direction to stop the spin/rotation of your lower body. 
I'll still probably use these terms and may be wrong but it is what I can visualize and understand easier, sorry....

Shred, I'm still trying to understand all this myself. I never skateboarded and when I skied this type of riding wasn't around.


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## ShredLife (Feb 6, 2010)

well, naming the directions of boardslides used to make sense before these goddamn kids started thinking skateboarding and snowboarding are "cool". 

goddamn kids..


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## uh oh a virus (Jan 19, 2011)

threej21 said:


> disagree completely....a nice big, slow bs 180 is tits in my book! seen quite a few peeps go both ways on all spins...didnt realize there was a rule that you always go fs for 360s or 180s and bs for anything bigger :laugh:


I hate quote-slaps -_- But it just feels so awkward spinning a bs 180.


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## ShredLife (Feb 6, 2010)

thats because they look cooler


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## Donutz (May 12, 2010)

ShredLife said:


> well, naming the directions of boardslides used to make sense before these goddamn kids started thinking skateboarding and snowboarding are "cool".
> 
> goddamn kids..


Shred, you seem to be misunderstanding the term "counter-rotation". Notwithstanding Snowolf's (and the AASI's) disavowal of the term, it describes a very specific technique that _does_ exist, and has nothing to do with backside or frontside. Counter-rotation is when you make your lower body go clockwise by cranking your upper body counter-clockwise (or the other way around). Rotation is when you give your entire body an initial rotation on takeoff, and your whole body goes the same way through the spin. For anything more than a 180 (maybe a 270), rotation is the only way to go, unless your body is as flexible as a G.I. Joe. But for 180's (see the title of this thread), a counter-rotated 180 is _way_ easier than a 180 using rotation -- especially with frontsides.

Regardless of what you want to call the move, or whether you believe it exists, the SA vids very clearly explain the difference and demonstrate the two techniques.


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## CheeseForSteeze (May 11, 2011)

Agree with Donutz. You should learn to throw 180's both front and backside and with both counter and rotation because you will eventually use all of them. It doesn't matter if to l you name it or not, just that you know how to do it.

And how are all the slide jibs complicated? There are only 6 of them: board, lip, nose, tail, blunt and nose blunt.


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## slyder (Jan 18, 2010)

So Steez, has all the input made it even more confusing for you :laugh:


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## slyder (Jan 18, 2010)

Steez, have you looked at any videos from "anyone" to help you understand. Maybe Wolf can also recommend a video or two. Here are a few off youtube with a fast search. Maybe these will help you out..

Sierra Snowboard FS/BS 180's

Sierra Snowboard Learning 180's

Not the best but another video

Random normal guy doing 180

again just some I grabbed off the search these might help while you are searching out. 
Also are you trying to 180 flat ground, jumps or park features would be helpful to know.
Simple thread was never so complicated huh hahaha


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## Donutz (May 12, 2010)

Snowolf said:


> Not intending this to come off as a personal attack but I am calling bullshit on this and I don't care what a SA video calls it. What you are describing and calling a "counter rotated 180" is in reality "pre-winding".


I have a bad feeling that we're working ourselves farther down the terminology rabbit hole here. I will fully concede that I'm not an expert so I can have a misconception about one or more terms. However, from a physics point of view, certain things make sense.

Now, here's my understanding of pre-winding, counter-rotation, etc. I'm regular, and I'm going to try to do frontsides, so I need to rotate CCW in all the following examples.

If I want to do a 180, I can either do it throug rotation or counter-rotation (my terms, and my understanding of the SA terms. We can negotiate a treaty later  ). If I want to do it through rotation -- or if I want to do a 360 or higher, for which rotation is the only choice -- then I will pre-wind as I approach by turning my upper body CW, so I'm actually facing somewhat tailside. As I launch, I twist CCW, giving me net CCW angular momentum. I do the spin (hopefully) and land.

If I want to do a 180 through counter-rotation, I will prewind CCW, so I'm facing forward. When I launch, I launch flat, but I then turn my upper body CW, which causes my lower body to go CCW. This is a net-zero-angular-momentum maneuver, similar in principle to using gyros for attitude adjustment (no, I don't mean anger management  ). It works, and is easier than the other kind when you're just starting out. This is the way the SA vids identify these maneuvres. They have the tactical advantage in that they're visually reinforcing the concepts at the same time.

Steeze, this kind of roundabout is fairly normal around here, especially during off season when we're all bored to shit. You should probably just avert your eyes and stop reading. It's the dirty underbelly of snowboarding. :laugh:

Edit: Looks like we're crossing each other's posts, too.


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## slyder (Jan 18, 2010)

I think Steez knows how to do them and is just toying with us and he has a life as we are all debating his thread :dunno:.

He posted once, Steez you still with us...:cheeky4:


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## Cr0_Reps_Smit (Jun 27, 2009)

Donutz said:


> If I want to do a 180 through counter-rotation, I will prewind CCW, so I'm facing forward. When I launch, I launch flat, but I then turn my upper body CW, which causes my lower body to go CCW. This is a net-zero-angular-momentum maneuver, similar in principle to using gyros for attitude adjustment (no, I don't mean anger management  ). It works, and is easier than the other kind when you're just starting out. This is the way the SA vids identify these maneuvres. They have the tactical advantage in that they're visually reinforcing the concepts at the same time.


this, to me, makes no sense.


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## slyder (Jan 18, 2010)

Check out this video it's not SA this guy is doing just like donutz was talking about.
It's at about 1:25 you can see several 180's where the upper and lower body are rotating in opposite directions.
Look here at 1:25

at 1:48 there is a slow motion of this same motion that seems to be of some contention


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## slyder (Jan 18, 2010)

Snowolf said:


> it looked to me like a classic and correct use if counter to slow and stop his rotation.


I totally agree with your statement. I feel this is what Donutz is trying to explain, if it's not he'll let us know. At least this is my version of what I do/call counter rotation. Again, it may be incorrect terminology, but it is what I am able to visualize and understand.

I still wish Steez would chime in :laugh:


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## Donutz (May 12, 2010)

Snowolf said:


> Basically, you are totally correct in that the "argument" is really only about semantics and the use of the action verb "rotation" as in "counter rotation" to describe an static, non action position. My only issue with Donutz`s last post was this concept of twisting counter to your rotation in mid air, generating spin. It has the opposite effect; it stops rotation. I think we are all (Donutz included) really talking about a very, very similar set of movements and positions but are using different terms and also perhaps the intensity of said movements. As I said, it is not an argument per se, rather a discussion from some different perspectives.


I agree, and more importantly each post brings us a few hours closer to next season 

Maybe it'd help if we took it out of spins for a second. Do we all agree what a "shiftie" is? (Your spelling may vary). As you are in the air, you shift your board either somewhat clockwise or somewhat CCW. You do this by rotating your upper body in the opposite direction in order to maintain net zero angular momentum. Then the opposite to bring the board back into line.

When I am doing a counter-rotated 180, I launch flat with no rotation, i.e. if I just relax after launch, it'll just end up being a straight air. There's no initial rotation, no net angular momentum. But because I started the jump facing forward, (what I think you're calling a pre-wind), I'm in a position to rotate my upper body clockwise (remember I'm regular). This has the effect of causing my lower body (including board) to rotate CCW to maintain net zero angular momentum. the lower body only rotates enough to compensate for the upper body movement, but if done right it's enough to complete a frontside 180.

I have the feeling, like you, that we're splitting hairs and quite likely thinking about virtually the same sets of techniques in different terms.

Also, my wife just threatened to bash me with the remote if I don't get off the goddam computer. I think I'm done for the evening :laugh:

CU


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## Cr0_Reps_Smit (Jun 27, 2009)

Donutz said:


> But because I started the jump facing forward, (what I think you're calling a pre-wind), I'm in a position to rotate my upper body clockwise (remember I'm regular). This has the effect of causing my lower body (including board) to rotate CCW to maintain net zero angular momentum. the lower body only rotates enough to compensate for the upper body movement, but if done right it's enough to complete a frontside 180.


what doesnt make sense to me is how start off opened up facing towards the lip with your upper body, get in the air then move your upper body the opposite way towards your bs spin and your lower body ends up going fs during this. 

when i think of a fs 180 with "counter" in it i would approach the jump just like i would normally, edging slightly from toe to heel, and when i pop off the lip i spin my upper body CCW while keeping my lower body in the original position for as long as possible then let it catch back up with my upper body before the landing.


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## Donutz (May 12, 2010)

Well, I'm back, head still un-bashed 

What you're describing is rotation. You're giving yourself a rotation as you launch, by jumping off your edges a certain way. OK, I'm gonna try this one more time, then simply accept that I can't describe it adequately.

First, think of doing a straight air. No spin, no 180, no nohing.

Now, think of doing a straight air, but instead of your shoulders being parallel to the board, as you approach the jump you had turned your upper body so that you're facing forward on your board, and your shoulders are perpendicular to the board. But still don't do anything as you launch. It's still a straight air, just with bad form.

Now, do all that, but _after_ you launch, rotate your upper body clockwise (if you're regular) and your lower body/board counterclockwise. If you had enough prewind, and if you're not too bottom-heavy, you'll be able to bring your board all the way around to switch without having any initial rotation.

I was beginning to doubt my own sanity after this thread, so I went back and re-watched the 180's vid, and yeah, it's saying what I remember it saying. I think the problem must be that I'm explaining it badly and creating a different image from what I'm trying to.

Also, even in a counter-rotated 180, I think there must be some initial rotation, otherwise you'd end up facing backside. The counter's probably mostly "tuning" the jump so that you land having done 180 rather than, say, 210 (which we all know is bad).


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## Cr0_Reps_Smit (Jun 27, 2009)

Donutz said:


> Well, I'm back, head still un-bashed
> 
> What you're describing is rotation. You're giving yourself a rotation as you launch, by jumping off your edges a certain way. OK, I'm gonna try this one more time, then simply accept that I can't describe it adequately.
> 
> ...


yea i understand exactly what you are saying but it still makes no sense to me how you can do those movements and get that outcome.


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## slyder (Jan 18, 2010)

Give it a try in your living room or den.
Stand up in your stance, rotate your arms forward, jump up and rotate your arms backward while rotating your hips/legs forward and pretend to ride off in the opposite stance.
See what happens or how it feels.


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## Cr0_Reps_Smit (Jun 27, 2009)

slyder said:


> Give it a try in your living room or den.
> Stand up in your stance, rotate your arms forward, jump up and rotate your arms backward while rotating your hips/legs forward and pretend to ride off in the opposite stance.
> See what happens or how it feels.


i know all this, i teach freestyle for a living and still have trouble seeing this as being a good way to do a 180. 

when you are in mid air i feel like you would have a lot of trouble to just throw your upper body in the opposite direction than you were facing all while your lower body is going in the opposite direction of that. i feel like at best your legs can get around a little past 90 and then have to slide around the rest of the spin.


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## ShredLife (Feb 6, 2010)

i tried doing what donutz was talking about and my upper body has now sheared away from the lower half of my torso, and unfortunately now....






.... i think i did it wrong...

so then i just waited till i was almost off the lift, turned my shoulders and my head - and holy shit i did a 180.


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## Cr0_Reps_Smit (Jun 27, 2009)

Snowolf said:


> Not only that but as you and I both know as instructors, our goal and that of AASI is to develop and promote efficient movements to achieve optimum board performance. We strive to teach others and ourselves to ride smarter not harder. Even if all this aerial gymnastics worked , why would you want to work twice as hard to achieve the same performance? I may just be lazy but if all I really need to do to throw a nice clean floaty 180 is to casually anticipatory rotate, that's what I am going to do and forget all of the mid air contortions!


ha pretty much where i was trying to get at but you explained it better then i could have.


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## slyder (Jan 18, 2010)

even better....we got 5 pages from a simple 180 question :laugh:

and like Wolf pointed out much earlier we are not all that far off from each other, and it is giving us something to discuss in July like Donutz mentioned.

I'm gonna just hang back at this point :thumbsup:


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## ShredLife (Feb 6, 2010)

its not 5 pages... yet.... but then again we haven't yet seen MPD with his fucking full page post with 9 full sized jpgs of him doing blurry, flatland 180s with some orange shit over some plastic trashcan lid 2 inches off the ground...




i will backside 180 over your motherfucking house bitches....

fucking melon son....


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## TofuSama (May 20, 2010)

Donutz said:


> Maybe it'd help if we took it out of spins for a second. Do we all agree what a "shiftie" is? (Your spelling may vary). As you are in the air, you shift your board either somewhat clockwise or somewhat CCW. You do this by rotating your upper body in the opposite direction in order to maintain net zero angular momentum. Then the opposite to bring the board back into line.


This method can actually work. It does work with physics. But yeah, the "counter-rotated 180" is just and exceptionally long shifty that doesn't return to it's original position. It has its uses, and it would generally be more useful for jibbing to return to your original position. We do these types of movements naturally in real life.


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## Cr0_Reps_Smit (Jun 27, 2009)

ShredLife said:


> its not 5 pages... yet.... but then again we haven't yet seen MPD with his fucking full page post with 9 full sized jpgs of him doing blurry, flatland 180s with some orange shit over some plastic trashcan lid 2 inches off the ground...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


sorry bro, but its all about the taipan back 180s now, ha


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## ShredLife (Feb 6, 2010)

fuck that mang... roast beefcurtains if yer gonna go there


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## Cr0_Reps_Smit (Jun 27, 2009)

ShredLife said:


> fuck that mang... roast beefcurtains if yer gonna go there


your right, i dont know what i was thinking.


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## slyder (Jan 18, 2010)

I don't care what _rotation _you used there....

That is way cool !!!!!


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## ShredLife (Feb 6, 2010)

yea that is a better pic


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## slyder (Jan 18, 2010)

Can you do those straight air's too????

if so, Cr0_Reps_Smit got an taipan straight air shots???


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## alaric (Aug 28, 2007)

Snowolf said:


> Only because I wish I could ride freestyle with that much steeze! Fuck man, you are just so casual like your going to pull a beer out of your pocket and drink it like it's a god damn in flight meal!



Nominated for quote of the year.

Totally with Snowolf on this one, that's a sick picture. Love the relaxed style


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## Steez (Jun 25, 2011)

sorry for my late replies i was out of town past 2 days, thank you every one for your input i saw the youtube videos on tutorials but since i dont have snow to practice on seems confusing haha i think im gona build a little balance beam and see which i like better bs or fs :S


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## Donutz (May 12, 2010)

Cr0_Reps_Smit said:


> yea i understand exactly what you are saying but it still makes no sense to me how you can do those movements and get that outcome.


Well, that's what it _feels_ like I'm doing. At this point I wish I had a video camera so I could look at what I think I'm doing. And some snow. And a mountain...


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## Donutz (May 12, 2010)

Snowolf said:


> Counter Rotation is a false religion.....:cheeky4:


There are no fossils... :laugh:


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## Karasene (Oct 20, 2010)

After Cro posting his sick air... can we start a thread on grabs..

I still don't know all the grabs and what they're called and I feel like nose grabs look so fricken easy when done right yet I cant figure out how people reach the damn nose lol... I've tried and in many failed attempts I always and up missing my board and landing in the back seat.. 

Making thread now..


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## Karasene (Oct 20, 2010)

ok.. Done. 
Cro throw that pic in there too

http://www.snowboardingforum.com/tips-tricks-instructors/40105-grabs.html#post406637


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## fattrav (Feb 21, 2009)

I like potatoes


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## Cr0_Reps_Smit (Jun 27, 2009)

ha thanks for the compliments guys, that was something new i learned this year and quickly became one of my go to set up spins for switch spins on jump lines.



Donutz said:


> Well, that's what it _feels_ like I'm doing. At this point I wish I had a video camera so I could look at what I think I'm doing. And some snow. And a mountain...


yea i understand and im sure if i saw it id know what you are saying better but like snowolf said, as instructors i tend to try and not make my self work as hard when riding if i dont have too 



Karasene said:


> After Cro posting his sick air... can we start a thread on grabs..
> 
> I still don't know all the grabs and what they're called and I feel like nose grabs look so fricken easy when done right yet I cant figure out how people reach the damn nose lol... I've tried and in many failed attempts I always and up missing my board and landing in the back seat..
> 
> Making thread now..


ha ok, i already posted in it before i saw this but ill throw this guy in there too for ya.




fattrav said:


> I like potatoes


we know trav, we know:laugh:


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## CheeseForSteeze (May 11, 2011)

I use the "counter" position, especially if you want to score pretzel rotation off. For bagel, it's easier just to slowly wind the body around as you about to hit the end. The "counter" position is good for learning boards/lips too; I found it was easy to learn by just thinking of it like a shifty.

And Cr0 - something needs to be done about this next year. Who came up with this idea? You guys just have a bunch of kinked down bars laying around?


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## myschims (Jan 11, 2010)

I always feel most comfortable doing backside spins off of jumps but frontside on flats haha
just make sure whatever your doing, send it and commit, nothings worse than landing sideways and smacking your face into the ground haha.


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## rasmasyean (Jan 26, 2008)

I just wanted to chime in an say that I recommend the Snowboard Addiction videos as well. Many of the things they coach help with a gradual progression as well...and not just "Do it like this!".

I've found that some of the stuff I figured out myself from "reading and random videos" I would have been able to get it faster by watching the Snowboard addiction videos had I watched it first. It's well worth the (low) price, and if it's too much for you to spend, you should prolly not go snowboarding.


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## SAddiction (Feb 21, 2009)

I find that most people have an easier time learning FS 180's first. The best way to start this trick is actually on the snow (no jump). Start by doing a toeside turn, shift to your heels and start to carve back across the hill. When you get to the apex of your second turn (on your heels) point your backhand down the hill in the direction you are going. You will feel your lower body want to catch up to your (now) rotated upper body naturally and you will find it easy to pivot this 180 on the snow. After you feel comfortable with this motion take it to a small "side hit" jump where you approach already on your heel edge.

The most important part when spinning a FS 180 is to bring your weight forward so you don't land back seat, which is very common when learning this trick. making sure you point down hill with your back hand to initiate this spin, as opposed to pulling your weight back with your front shoulder.

Other than that just remember the basics for any kind of jumping, approach at a comfortable speed, keep your knee's bent and stay relaxed. 

Hope that helps.


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## ThunderChunky (Oct 1, 2011)

I feel like doing Nollie 180's really helped me learn 180's. It just seems easier and feels better. 

And because I know somebody is gonna say it, there are such things as a nollie in snowboarding. At least in my book. :cheeky4:


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## whistlerboarder (Sep 21, 2011)

When you've first learning 180's try riding up a side bank and popping your 180's off those. Get them dialled outside the park on stuff like that before trying them in the park. Here's a video breaking down the rest How To Spin a 180 – Freestyle Snowboard Trick Tips | www.SnowboardProCamp.com


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## whistlerboarder (Sep 21, 2011)

Counter position 180's are awesome, and I find them allot easier and more stylish than the rotating 180's. The only downside is you cant progress up to doing 360's. My favourite trick to do is a switch backside 180 countered.


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## Peaceryder (Nov 21, 2011)

Cr0_Reps_Smit said:


> sorry bro, but its all about the taipan back 180s now, ha



I'm gonna learn how to do this!!!!


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