# Mervin is the only Company that can sell a Board with an Extruded Base for over $500.



## d15 (Jan 12, 2012)

Discuss.


12345


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## Nivek (Jan 24, 2008)

They're also the only brand convincing you, the average rider, that you need a near $700 true twin board to ride all mountain and pow (T.Rice HP). Or that a non full wrap edge is better because it's "easier to fix" despite being much more likely to chip and delam and basically guaranteeing that you'll HAVE to fix it. Oh, and though the board has not changed at all since it's 2nd or 3rd year, the Banana is now stated has being flat to MILD CAMBER in the tips when 4 years ago it was just flat. They're turning manufacturing inconsistencies into marketing. Then there's the whole EC2, XC2, C2, and !BTX! fiasco...

Spend enough money on marketing, do it right, and the product no longer matters.


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## tanscrazydaisy (Mar 11, 2013)

d15 said:


> Discuss.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It's your money, buy what you want


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## destroy (Dec 16, 2012)

You guys are hilarious. I can't wait for this one!


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## SnowDragon (Apr 23, 2012)

I already railed about Mervin's pricing in a thread I started a few weeks ago.

Of course, the fact that they sell boards with "an extruded base for over $500" says more about the consumer than the manufacturer.


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## 16gkid (Dec 5, 2012)

GreyDragon said:


> Of course, the fact that they sell boards with "an extruded base for over $500" says more about the consumer than the manufacturer.


In the motorcycle world, we call them ducati owners:happy:


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## f00bar (Mar 6, 2014)

Don't like it? Don't buy it. What do you care what people do with their money, who are you, the government?


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## 16gkid (Dec 5, 2012)

f00bar said:


> Don't like it? Don't buy it. What do you care what people do with their money, who are you, the government?


clearly a mervin shill...:happy:


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## Nolefan2011 (Mar 12, 2011)

d15 said:


> Discuss.
> 
> 
> 12345


And both the TRS and Jamie Lynn are fun as shit.


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## f00bar (Mar 6, 2014)

16gkid said:


> clearly a mervin shill...:happy:


What can I say, it pays for all my hookers and blow.


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## freshy (Nov 18, 2009)

No Lib since the mid 90's has ever let me down, why change now?


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## jtg (Dec 11, 2012)

Because being a fanboy is not in your best interest, it's in theirs


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## Nivek (Jan 24, 2008)

freshy said:


> No Lib since the mid 90's has ever let me down, why change now?


Neither did the Nokia brick. Still using one of them?


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## Nivek (Jan 24, 2008)

GreyDragon said:


> Of course, the fact that they sell boards with "an extruded base for over $500" says more about the consumer than the manufacturer.


True. Its a little bit of both. Smart marketing to make the TRS the same price as the Rice but give the TRS an extruded base since they arguably sell more TRS's. Mervin wont make changes till their sales dictate such, but it just feels dishonest to continue marketing to the masses an inferior product and claiming its revolutionary. Why is there such a tech difference in a brand at the same price point? Not to mention the Skate Banana. That board debuted in 2006/07. Nearly ten years later and they still think it's worth $490? Come on. Find me one other major brand selling a deck that hasn't changed in 8 years.

And to anyone arguing that full wrap is something they genuinely believe is better, if it has any true benefits outside of ease of production why is it the only time I ever see decks without full wrapped edges that arent Mervin, they're shape prototypes? The only value EVERY SINGLE other brand out there sees in tucked edges is that they dont have to create an edge program for a test shape. If there were any greater value to tucked edges over full wrap, at least one other major brand would do it. They dont. 

Mervin has some nice things like the Gateway series and whatnot. But the continued process of blinding the uneducated consumer with 9 camber profiles, 3 versions or nearly every model, passing off manufacturing inaccuracies as tech points, overcharging cause they're made near Canada, and overcharging for lower quality materials and passing it off with fancy words, has led me to view them the same way I did Nike. They honestly feel like they're in snowboarding to exploit us for money and not to make snowboarding better.

Bitch at me if you will. That's what I see.


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## hikerman (Jan 28, 2013)

I have been in snowboarding for 3 years now. I think this is good input.


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## rambob (Mar 5, 2011)

Nivek: Your posts are full of about the same stuff that u claim mervin is up to. You're misleading the reader just like u say mervin is misleading the consumer. 
If u dont like them dont buy them. Talk about brands u like to ride. 
Oh yea, I dont own a Mervin board at present but have owned many in the past.


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## PalmerFreak (Jul 13, 2009)

What exactly is the point of this thread? Summer here already and I didn't notice? I've seen several threads that have brought up these same issues - if you have an issue with Mervin send them an email, and better yet, don't buy one.

I don't care about wrapped edges, the multitude of base profiles, or the material the base is made out of. All I care about is how the board rides and feels and the two Mervin boards that I own (12/13 TRice & 14/15 Billy Goat) have been really good so far. If that makes me a "shill" then so be it.


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## JonSnow (Jul 24, 2013)

I think this thread is far too unfocused. What is the question that we are discussing?

Nivek, do you believe that Lib Techs are simply overpriced, but are on par quality wise with the competition, or that they are not making quality boards and overcharging for them? Do you believe this to be true for the majority of their lineup, or just a few boards?


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## ETM (Aug 11, 2009)

Id say its more a case of the rest of the market under charging, most people would not work for the low wages the snowboard builders are getting on a $300 board. 
Go have a look at the price skis sell for, its a much healthier margin and theres probably less shitfighting because of it.

Snowboarders are cool, chilled out people right? Until you ask them to pay for a board lol


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## JonSnow (Jul 24, 2013)

ETM said:


> Id say its more a case of the rest of the market under charging, most people would not work for the low wages the snowboard builders are getting on a $300 board.
> Go have a look at the price skis sell for, its a much healthier margin and theres probably less shitfighting because of it.
> 
> Snowboarders are cool, chilled out people right? Until you ask them to pay for a board lol


Do you have any idea of the amount of man hours it takes to build a board? Does this number change significantly depending on the manufacturer?

What is the margin made on skis vs. a snowboard? What causes this margin difference? Just because there's a difference in final sale price, does not indicate a difference up or down in profit margin or the amount that ski builders are paid vs. snowboard builders.


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## ETM (Aug 11, 2009)

JonSnow said:


> Do you have any idea of the amount of man hours it takes to build a board? Does this number change significantly depending on the manufacturer?
> 
> What is the margin made on skis vs. a snowboard? What causes this margin difference? Just because there's a difference in final sale price, does not indicate a difference up or down in profit margin or the amount that ski builders are paid vs. snowboard builders.


I have a bit of an idea.
The time is the same, the only difference is material cost which is not much and labour cost which is shitloads.
Skis are marginally more work (maybe 1%) but they sell for 200%+


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## Tatanka Head (Jan 13, 2014)

JonSnow said:


> Do you have any idea of the amount of man hours it takes to build a board?


He doesn't have a clue. 

By the way, ETM, I really dig your shapes and designs for your boards. I don't think you hear that enough.


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## ETM (Aug 11, 2009)

Tatanka Head said:


> He doesn't have a clue.
> 
> By the way, ETM, I really dig your shapes and designs for your boards. I don't think you hear that enough.


Thanks man


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## elstinky (Jan 24, 2010)

Nivek said:


> They're also the only brand convincing you, the average rider, that you need a near $700 true twin board to ride all mountain and pow (T.Rice HP). Or that a non full wrap edge is better because it's "easier to fix" despite being much more likely to chip and delam and basically guaranteeing that you'll HAVE to fix it. Oh, and though the board has not changed at all since it's 2nd or 3rd year, the Banana is now stated has being flat to MILD CAMBER in the tips when 4 years ago it was just flat. They're turning manufacturing inconsistencies into marketing. Then there's the whole EC2, XC2, C2, and !BTX! fiasco...
> 
> Spend enough money on marketing, do it right, and the product no longer matters.


Damn, it's magic! Replace 'rider' with 'user' and 'board' with 'phone' or 'laptop' and you've got Apple's business spelled out :dry:


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## miplatt88 (May 13, 2013)

elstinky said:


> Damn, it's magic! Replace 'rider' with 'user' and 'board' with 'phone' or 'laptop' and you've got Apple's business spelled out :dry:


I love my macs but damn if you aren't correct. So totally true. I love my Apple laptops but all their fanboys still piss me off. If you want best bang for your buck you can get a comparable PC for half the cost of a mac. I really get a kick out of how "revolutionary" their Retina displays are.


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## JonSnow (Jul 24, 2013)

ETM said:


> I have a bit of an idea.
> The time is the same, the only difference is material cost which is not much and labour cost which is shitloads.
> Skis are marginally more work (maybe 1%) but they sell for 200%+


I'm trying to figure out how you came to the conclusion that skis are sold at prices about 200% higher than snowboards, and that snowboards should be priced in this same price bracket. So instead of MSRPs of 300-700 bucks (my assumption of the general MSRP of snowboards), snowboards should fairly be sold for somewhere between 600-1400 dollars.

From Tatanka's sarcasm, it sounds like you have personal experience building boards that I am unaware of. Is this in a factory environment, where I'm guessing most of the boards we are buying come from? How many man hours does it take? This question is kind of irrelevant, because I think that your assumption that it takes the same amount of man hours to make skis as snowboards is probably correct, but I still find the information interesting.

You were stating that you have some knowledge, or I'm guessing an intelligent estimate, of what the profit margins are on snowboards vs. skis, but I'm just wondering how you came to your conclusions. That sort of information is extremely hard to get, and is not something you can just google.

All that aside, I have no problem with your assumption that skis and snowboards probably take about the same amount of work/money to produce. However, when I check Evo for prices on skis the MSRPs seem a bit higher than snowboards, but no where close to the 200% increase that you are stating. I would guess that MSRPs on skis average between 450-750 dollars, so definitely an increase, but not astronomically so.

Either way I don't agree with your overall conclusion that snowboards in general are underpriced. I come to this conclusion based on the amount of gear that can be sold at 40%-50% off during sales. If boards are underpriced to begin with, I do not think it would be possible for companies to support these kinds of sales on a regular basis.


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## deagol (Mar 26, 2014)

Jon,

ETM has posted some of the boards he has built here in some other thread(s) and they are sweet... So I would imagine he does have a pretty good idea of the time involved.


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## ETM (Aug 11, 2009)

JonSnow said:


> I'm trying to figure out how you came to the conclusion that skis are sold at prices about 200% higher than snowboards, and that snowboards should be priced in this same price bracket. So instead of MSRPs of 300-700 bucks (my assumption of the general MSRP of snowboards), snowboards should fairly be sold for somewhere between 600-1400 dollars.
> 
> From Tatanka's sarcasm, it sounds like you have personal experience building boards that I am unaware of. Is this in a factory environment, where I'm guessing most of the boards we are buying come from? How many man hours does it take? This question is kind of irrelevant, because I think that your assumption that it takes the same amount of man hours to make skis as snowboards is probably correct, but I still find the information interesting.
> 
> ...


its 3rd world working conditions that brings you boards at that price, thats the thing, and talking about 50% off sales, thats the retailer giving up their margin.
Its the same old story, Johnny wants to get paid $20 an hour at work but when he buys a snowboard he expects the dude who built it to get paid $3 an hour. 

Anyhow, thats my view


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## JonSnow (Jul 24, 2013)

elstinky said:


> Damn, it's magic! Replace 'rider' with 'user' and 'board' with 'phone' or 'laptop' and you've got Apple's business spelled out :dry:


I definitely think that Lib is guilty of overhyped marketing, but I do not think that it is on the level of apple, mainly because the price difference is no where near as astronomical. 

I think that in general you can get a PC with the same or better hardware for about 50% of the cost of a similar Mac. Lib's are at a higher price point than most of the competition, but not crazily so. If you sort men's snowboards on EVO by price, Libs start showing up on page 2 of 6, and most of them are on page 3. If you go to the second to last page (the last page is mostly splits), quite a few of the boards are Libs, but there are also plenty of Burton, Arbor, and Never Summer boards, as well as a few other companies.

Now admittedly, this is pretty shitty evidence because of sales and such, but I am far to lazy to do the actual work required to figure out how much pricier Libs are than most of the competition. However, it doesn't appear to me that Libs are waaaay overpriced. I would guess in general that they have an MSRP of about 50-80 dollars higher than similar boards (I do agree that the banana is probably about 250-300 dollars more expensive than it should be, but this is just a single board). What are other peoples assumption about the price differences in general? Anyone have better evidence for making a conclusion?

I think we need to set a price point for Libs, before we start stating that they are overpriced for what you get. Right now it seems to me like their pricing isn't that crazy, so it would have to be proven that the boards themselves are inferior to convince me that they are waaay overpriced. I can see a 50 dollar mark up over other brands coming from "Made in the USA" by itself.

Even though I haven't found evidence that Lib's are overpriced, I do think that their marketing is shameful. I never go to their website for info on their boards cause most of the info their is marketing BS, Eco, Bio, Sustainable maaaan, super poppy flex appeal, whatever the fuck they are saying it's useless or confusing and meant to trigger the emotions of a buyer rather then their intelligence. I appreciate the fact that they are trying to be a sustainable company, and reduce their impact on the environment, but you know what I'm more interested in "If you make a goddamn good snowboard", so give me that information.


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## Nolefan2011 (Mar 12, 2011)

Nivek said:


> True. Its a little bit of both. Smart marketing to make the TRS the same price as the Rice but give the TRS an extruded base since they arguably sell more TRS's. Mervin wont make changes till their sales dictate such, but it just feels dishonest to continue marketing to the masses an inferior product and claiming its revolutionary. Why is there such a tech difference in a brand at the same price point? Not to mention the Skate Banana. That board debuted in 2006/07. Nearly ten years later and they still think it's worth $490? Come on. Find me one other major brand selling a deck that hasn't changed in 8 years.
> 
> And to anyone arguing that full wrap is something they genuinely believe is better, if it has any true benefits outside of ease of production why is it the only time I ever see decks without full wrapped edges that arent Mervin, they're shape prototypes? The only value EVERY SINGLE other brand out there sees in tucked edges is that they dont have to create an edge program for a test shape. If there were any greater value to tucked edges over full wrap, at least one other major brand would do it. They dont.
> 
> ...



Nobody answers this question I have asked in return. If this was the case, and if a high end manufacturer like Lib Tech was doing this and getting away with it, calling it a marketing cop out for being cheap, then why aren't the generic and low end boards that we aren't even talking about on this site doing full wrap boards? Talking about the boards you can buy at sports authority that are complete crap.

Why aren't they copying Mervin calling it a tech advancement. I will argue for two reasons.

1) It literally saves you maybe a few cents in production. It takes maybe 20 extra seconds of time, and the cost of that metal when buying it in bulk, for an extra 12 inches, is about a dime if that. IF it was such a significant savings, other companies would copy Lib Tech, and do it. Shit, Rossi, Smokin, amongst others bought the rights to Magnatraction. Someone would copy this if it was a true money saver, because Lib has been successful.

2) Sims came out with wedges that work, and Bataleon came out with Triple base tech, and hardly anyone has touched this tech despite it working and selling. Rome tried with the cross rocket and failed, but literally nobody else has hit it. 


My argument is that if it was MAJOR cost saver, you would see others jump it. It's not. I think Mervin actually believes it works, and I think that other companies aren't doing it because it doesn't save much money at all, and because they believe people aren't buying Mervin boards for the non full wrapped boards. They see more value in the dampening and magnatraction. 

I don't know if it works or not. I haven't smashed my board full on into a tree enough to know. Did once with my T Rice in Revelstoke, but have never had that kind of impact with a full wrapped board like my Capita. In theory, it makes sense - the physics of it - but the real world is a totally different application, and I know literally zero people that have told me that their no full wrapped board was more of a problem than a full wrapped board.


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## JonSnow (Jul 24, 2013)

ETM said:


> its 3rd world working conditions that brings you boards at that price, thats the thing


Ok, but now you've turned this into an ideological argument instead of an economic one.

I believe that snowboards are priced at point where the companies producing them are making money, not losing it. Can you agree with this assumption? If that is the case they are not underpriced in my opinion.

Anyways, I think that this discussion is almost completely irrelevant to the topic of whether Lib Tech's are overpriced. The only thing that may be relevant is if you believe that the quality of life of workers for Lib Tech is better than for other brands, and that this is important enough to you to choose to buy a board at an increased price.

If you want to include this in the discussion of Libs price I think you have to establish that there are differences in the workers quality of life and establish how much more you are willing to pay to make sure that the person who made your board is happy. "Made in the USA" is supposed to imply that the quality of the product is better and that the workers have a better QoL and get paid more, but whether or not that is true in this case idk.


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## ETM (Aug 11, 2009)

This is a low bow to draw on this forum lol but I dont care 
Western society is in the process of giving all its manufacturing to china (there are many other countries too but lets keep it simple). One day China will make everything, western society will basically give its wealth to china, at that point china becomes the boss and the tables will turn.
The west will be the ones begging for work since we gave it all away, and china will dictate how much we get paid, just like we do to those poor people now.

Basically thank your elders for the life they created for you but apologise to your children for the life you leave them.


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## f00bar (Mar 6, 2014)

Lib has Travis Rice's ego to pay for. Just kidding, I don't know him and he seems decent enough guy. That said, I do believe his popularity gives them a little bit of leeway in their pricing. He is one of a very small number of riders that are actually a bankable name to have riding for you and they are cashing in on it while they can. Lib is synonymous with Rice at this point and they're going to drive it like they stole it.


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## Nolefan2011 (Mar 12, 2011)

JonSnow said:


> I definitely think that Lib is guilty of overhyped marketing, but I do not think that it is on the level of apple, mainly because the price difference is no where near as astronomical.
> 
> I think that in general you can get a PC with the same or better hardware for about 50% of the cost of a similar Mac. Lib's are at a higher price point than most of the competition, but not crazily so. If you sort men's snowboards on EVO by price, Libs start showing up on page 2 of 6, and most of them are on page 3. If you go to the second to last page (the last page is mostly splits), quite a few of the boards are Libs, but there are also plenty of Burton, Arbor, and Never Summer boards, as well as a few other companies.
> 
> ...


When you say guilty of marketing, what do you mean? I know they can be a little vague. But what website isn't. Go to Capita. They have about 10 different wood cores, and if you read the descriptions, all difference combinations provide "pop, smooth flex, and dampening". LOL. Then why have 10 different combinations of wood cores? And which one is best fit for my riding style?

Same goes for ride. All the different rods are carbon fibers used, yet, they all are strategically placed for "pop and energy". Where? How? 

The only person breaking down the specific types of pop you get from a board is AngrySnowboarder. The only one. I have never seen a website explain exactly how their board pops. Is it lazy tail pop. Is it full load it up pop. How does it carve? Short radius, long radius. How is the torisional flex?


Get what I am saying? Nobody does this. Yeah, Mervin is more vague, but at least they put videos up showing how the C3 press, or C2 presses, even if it isn't worth much.


****

Point being, NOBODY explains their marketing. Nobody explains what the tech does to the ride. They just say vague comments like "adds pop"

I love my Smokin Team Series, but trust me, they use the Pop Gnarly hemp stringers, and when trying to read to understand just how this tech will actually benefit me, or how it compares to regular carbon stringers, NOTHING. Board rides great and has plenty of pop. But I bought blind just like every other company (actually not completely blind, some internet reviews help, and BA verified it on his site this year).


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## hikerman (Jan 28, 2013)

ETM said:


> This is a low bow to draw on this forum lol but I dont care
> Western society is in the process of giving all its manufacturing to china (there are many other countries too but lets keep it simple). One day China will make everything, western society will basically give its wealth to china, at that point china becomes the boss and the tables will turn.
> The west will be the ones begging for work since we gave it all away, and china will dictate how much we get paid, just like we do to those poor people now.
> 
> Basically thank your elders for the life they created for you but apologise to your children for the life you leave them.


What do you mean "in the process"

It's been in the process for the last 15 - 20 years


"Basically thank your elders for the life they created for you but apologise to your children for the life you leave"

Very well put!


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## JonSnow (Jul 24, 2013)

Nolefan2011 said:


> Nobody answers this question I have asked in return. If this was the case, and if a high end manufacturer like Lib Tech was doing this and getting away with it, calling it a marketing cop out for being cheap, then why aren't the generic and low end boards that we aren't even talking about on this site doing full wrap boards? Talking about the boards you can buy at sports authority that are complete crap.
> 
> Why aren't they copying Mervin calling it a tech advancement. I will argue for two reasons.
> 
> ...


I don't think that anyone has provided enough evidence to prove that fully wrapped edges are better than Mervin's partial wrapping. Even if the fully wrapped edge is stronger it doesn't mean that we need it. You have to establish a problem first before requiring a solution. What is the problem with partially wrapped edges? I have not seen reports of peoples edges getting torn out, or that the tip or tale of their board is getting major damage because of partial wrapping. So what are you trying to fix by fully wrapping the edges?

I also don't really see any real benefits of partial wrapping either. It saves a little weight, and is easier to fix? Either way, I do not think I would buy a board based on the way the edge is wrapped, unless there is more evidence about one method being better than the other that I am unaware of.

As far as companies buying Lib Tech's tech, it may partially have to do with their marketing. Lib obviously puts a lot of effort into their overhyped marketing, so if you are going to buy a tech and put it in your businesses boards you should be buying ones that are already popular and another company has put a lot of effort into marketing. Sims and Battaleon are relatively small companies. Even if their tech works, it has not been marketed that well or become hugely successful, so even if you buy it off them it is now up to you to convince the consumer it works instead of just swimming in the wake of somebody else's marketing campaign.


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## ETM (Aug 11, 2009)

hikerman said:


> What do you mean "in the process"
> 
> It's been in the process for the last 15 - 20 years
> 
> ...


It sure has been going on for 20 years, its a slow but sure process, and the $300 snowboard is a clear as day piece in the puzzle which brings me full circle lol to the price of snowboards being too high, I just dont think its right that the dude flipping your burger makes more money than a skilled worker making snowboards.


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## destroy (Dec 16, 2012)

Those sales are because most of the profit margin is gone and sacrificed in order to move those models to cut losses/break even and move old stock to make way for new stock. It's a cycle.

It amazes me the assumptions that are made in this thread. This thread is so full of speculation and conclusions that could only be reached with a catapult or a colossal spring board. Keep it coming...


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## JonSnow (Jul 24, 2013)

hikerman said:


> What do you mean "in the process"
> 
> It's been in the process for the last 15 - 20 years
> 
> ...


Again, this is an interesting topic, but unless you are tying it into the pricing of Lib Tech boards why is it being discussed in this thread?

I know it can be tied into Libs pricing, so why don't you do it if you want to base an argument off of the fact that Libs are made in the USA and therefor deserve to be sold at a higher price point. How much extra are you willing to spend to support your ideology?


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## ETM (Aug 11, 2009)

JonSnow said:


> Again, this is an interesting topic, but unless you are tying it into the pricing of Lib Tech boards why is it being discussed in this thread?


Cause its the fucking internet and people do whatever they want, get over that and your life will roll smoothly


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## ETM (Aug 11, 2009)

interestingly for most I assume is the price difference in crappy base material and fantastic base material is about $10 a board and that's buying it from a reseller who obviously marks it right up.
Imagine how cheap the big guys are getting it for, you're probably talking $2 or $3 difference


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## JonSnow (Jul 24, 2013)

destroy said:


> Those sales are because most of the profit margin is gone and sacrificed in order to move those models to cut losses/break even and move old stock to make way for new stock. It's a cycle.
> 
> It amazes me the assumptions that are made in this thread. This thread is so full of speculation and conclusions that could only be reached with a catapult or a colossal spring board. Keep it coming...


Can you go into more detail about why you think that my conclusions are wrong?

I believe that if companies regularly sell their products at prices 40-50% lower than MSRP, than their MSRP is too high to begin with. It doesn't matter why their products are going on sale, if the consumer isn't willing to pay MSRP than the product is overpriced. 

How did you come to the conclusion that the profit margin is gone when selling a board at 50% off? Unless you can provide evidence to support that statement that sounds like a far greater stretch than my conclusions about pricing. I have also heard this statement being thrown around before, but I've never heard the evidence of it. Do you know how much a store like Evo buys their boards for? Even if the distributor has lost their profit margin, that does not mean the producer has lost any profits whatsoever.

The fact is, no one knows what the profit margins on snowboards are. It has been discussed thoroughly in other threads, and as far as I can tell no one can find a concrete answer to the question. Without info on the actual profit margins, the strongest piece of evidence that I can use to come to a conclusion on what the fair price of a snowboard is, is what the free market has decided their price should be. I believe that most people buy snowboards well below MSRP. If this is the case, do you not believe that the free market determined value of a snowboard is under MSRP?


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## JonSnow (Jul 24, 2013)

ETM said:


> interestingly for most I assume is the price difference in crappy base material and fantastic base material is about $10 a board and that's buying it from a reseller who obviously marks it right up.
> Imagine how cheap the big guys are getting it for, you're probably talking $2 or $3 difference


What are the actual raw materials used to make a base? I'm sure that you could look that up on Alibaba to come up with a pretty accurate wholesale price.

Apart from the raw materials price difference, isn't there a difference in how they manufacture a sintered base as opposed to an extruded base that would also add cost? or do you literally just buy sheets of raw material, cut it to size, and put it in the board?

Also, aren't there differences in the subcategories of sintered and extruded bases themselves? I always see things like sintered 7000 or sintered 4500. Do you have any idea how these differences may effect the cost to produce, if they even are differences lol?


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## ETM (Aug 11, 2009)

JonSnow said:


> Can you go into more detail about why you think that my conclusions are wrong?
> 
> I believe that if companies regularly sell their products at prices 40-50% lower than MSRP, than their MSRP is too high to begin with. It doesn't matter why their products are going on sale, if the consumer isn't willing to pay MSRP than the product is overpriced.
> 
> ...


 take that one up with the retail model. Delete bricks and mortar stores and store workers and you can get your board cheaper again, fuck a few more people out of a job who cares right?
Dude you would have your whole country on food stamps in a month if you had your way.


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## Nolefan2011 (Mar 12, 2011)

JonSnow said:


> I don't think that anyone has provided enough evidence to prove that fully wrapped edges are better than Mervin's partial wrapping. Even if the fully wrapped edge is stronger it doesn't mean that we need it. You have to establish a problem first before requiring a solution. What is the problem with partially wrapped edges? I have not seen reports of peoples edges getting torn out, or that the tip or tale of their board is getting major damage because of partial wrapping. So what are you trying to fix by fully wrapping the edges?
> 
> I also don't really see any real benefits of partial wrapping either. It saves a little weight, and is easier to fix? Either way, I do not think I would buy a board based on the way the edge is wrapped, unless there is more evidence about one method being better than the other that I am unaware of.
> 
> As far as companies buying Lib Tech's tech, it may partially have to do with their marketing. Lib obviously puts a lot of effort into their overhyped marketing, so if you are going to buy a tech and put it in your businesses boards you should be buying ones that are already popular and another company has put a lot of effort into marketing. Sims and Battaleon are relatively small companies. Even if their tech works, it has not been marketed that well or become hugely successful, so even if you buy it off them it is now up to you to convince the consumer it works instead of just swimming in the wake of somebody else's marketing campaign.


Maybe I didn't phrase it well enough, but I believe you and I are arguing the same point. I don't believe Mervin is being cheap by not full wrapping the edges. I think they believe by not doing so, it is actually a benefit to the rider. 

Case in point was that if it was a major cost saver, many other board makers would do it as well, especially your bargain basement boards.

I also agree that there isn't enough evidence that it works, but believe in theory, it makes sense. 

And I disagree about Bataleon and Sims being smaller companies. Because TBT is one of the larger marketed ideas out there. They spend good money getting it out. I heard about TBT and Bataleon about the same time I heard about Magnatraction. They are doing something right getting the message out there. The wedges with Sims you have a point on.

I don't believe it's marketing hype. There are enough testimonials out there that Magnatraction works on ice. It flat out does. I have experienced it, many East coasters have experienced it. Can it get grippy? Sure. Can it maybe slow you down? I think so. But it works for the application of ice.


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## JonSnow (Jul 24, 2013)

ETM said:


> take that one up with the retail model. Delete bricks and mortar stores and store workers and you can get your board cheaper again, fuck a few more people out of a job who cares right?
> Dude you would have your whole country on food stamps in a month if you had your way.


I personally barely ever shop at retail stores anymore, because I do not believe that the services they provide are worth the increase in prices that they charge. What do I gain from buying a snowboard at a retail store, absolutely nothing, boots on the other hand you need to try on, but if the retail store is charging an extra 100 bucks I'm still not going to buy from them. If you ask me, if they go out of business it's their own fault for not changing the way their business is run. They could charge 15 bucks to try on boots, they could price match plus 10%, idk, but I'm sure they could be doing it better to compete with online retailers.

Either way, this is still a personal ideology, so it does not apply to everyone buying a board, whereas the performance and durability does. If it is important to you that you buy a board from a company that meets your ideological standards, please state which companies meet those standards and how much of an increase in cost this is worth to you. 

Does Lib Tech meet your ideological standards? What are these standards, is it only made in the USA? How much extra are you willing to pay for a board made by Lib Tech because of this ideology?


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## Nolefan2011 (Mar 12, 2011)

JonSnow said:


> I personally barely ever shop at retail stores anymore, because I do not believe that the services they provide are worth the increase in prices that they charge. What do I gain from buying a snowboard at a retail store, absolutely nothing, boots on the other hand you need to try on, but if the retail store is charging an extra 100 bucks I'm still not going to buy from them. If you ask me, if they go out of business it's their own fault for not changing the way their business is run. They could charge 15 bucks to try on boots, they could price match plus 10%, idk, but I'm sure they could be doing it better to compete with online retailers.
> 
> Either way, this is still a personal ideology, so it does not apply to everyone buying a board, whereas the performance and durability does. If it is important to you that you buy a board from a company that meets your ideological standards, please state which companies meet those standards and how much of an increase in cost this is worth to you.
> 
> Does Lib Tech meet your ideological standards? What are these standards, is it only made in the USA? How much extra are you willing to pay for a board made by Lib Tech because of this ideology?


Wow, if everyone tried on boots, and then bought online instead of buying at a store, guess what? Nobody is ever trying on boots again because all the brick and mortar are out of business. If someone gives you the service of going through a boot fit, and were competent, buy from the damn store. I recently did this, and brought up the fact that the internet was already offering 30% off. They gladly matched. Makes me sick hearing stories of people doing that. You take the service and steal it essentially. The online store couldn't provide that either. 

Same goes for demo boards. They are cutting the price down by allowing you to try for a day and crediting to the board, and you still go buy on the net? Shitty.

Lib Tech - have your ridden them? They are some of the most smooth, damp boards out there that serve a purpose in some conditions. If someone else could make a ride like that, I would be interested. Ride has come pretty damn close, and they have more pop, but I am one of the people that still likes C2 BTX on certain days and in certain terrain, so they don't have the product. They also don't have the edge hold of mag for me. C2 is so damn quick edge to edge, the board is damp and smooth (something NS lacks for me. I feel the transition of rocker to camber - I don't as much with Lib, it feels smooth - Burton's flying V was the WORST - Forums DD was bad too).

Nobody IMO has created the C2 profile with the dampening, smooth feel, and edge tech, while still maintaining a decent amount of pop (not a Yes Greats or Ride DH - but enough that it didn't feel dead).

To suggest it's all marketing is crap. Ride one and tell me you can find that board feel with another company and I'll gladly switch if they are $100 less. Smokin is the closest feel I have found and they sell their boards for around 540.


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## marctremblay (Feb 26, 2015)

I own a Lando Phoenix... I'm riding for 18 years and this board is my first extruded base and, by far, the slower base I have ever had. But, this board is so fun to ride that I don't spend all my day thinking " ahh shit this base is so slow"!!!!

Back in 2002 I bought a 2001 Forum Innovation series 154cm. This board was pack with technology: Carbon/kevlar/sintered Base etc. But, This board was a pain in the ass!!!. The worst snowboard I have ever ride. Impossible to carve, too stiff to be fun in the park etc. For sure the base was fast but it was like having a 500hp v8 engine in a chevy chevette.

So, Do I think that Lib tech sould use sintered Base? Yes!
Would I buy again my Lando even if it's a extruded base? Yes! This board is fun to ride and sturdy

And, by the way, there is a least one avantage with extruded base. I spend less time waxing and more time doing anything else funnier. Next year, I will probably stoneground my Lib tech which, I think, should improve the glide.


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## Nolefan2011 (Mar 12, 2011)

Double post


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## Nolefan2011 (Mar 12, 2011)

marctremblay said:


> I own a Lando Phoenix... I'm riding for 18 years and this board is my first extruded base and, by far, the slower base I have ever had. But, this board is so fun to ride that I don't spend all my day thinking " ahh shit this base is so slow"!!!!
> 
> Back in 2002 I bought a 2001 Forum Innovation series 154cm. This board was pack with technology: Carbon/kevlar/sintered Base etc. But, This board was a pain in the ass!!!. The worst snowboard I have ever ride. Impossible to carve, too stiff to be fun in the park etc. For sure the base was fast but it was like having a 500hp v8 engine in a chevy chevette.
> 
> ...


I have had a few Lib Tech's, and the most experience on my T Rice, which is sintered. It's not the fastest base on the planet. I would say average. And someone explained to me that it was the magnatraction slowing me down. Like you tough, would it change my buyer decision? No. The board is fun as hell, holds a great edge on the iciest of days, is smooth and damp, and still has some fun ollie pop to the board.


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## booron (Mar 22, 2014)

Yes it's all marketing! We're all stupid sheep who've been conned and thrown our money away for ABSOLUTELY NOTHING!!! I just dropped $350 on an Arbor and drove to the hill only to find that I actually never had the board, but that their evil marketing simply took my money and gave me nothing. 

Unfortunately I was powerless in the whole process. I think it was those stupid veneer top sheets that got me. I thought they looked cool, and I couldn't really find other companies making boards like that. I even thought to myself, "hey! This doesn't effect the ride, or at least I can't find evidence that empirically proves whether or not the ride is affected for better or worse by this top sheet!" 

Then I thought it might be too expensive due to those top sheets. I checked Alibaba for evidence of whether or not Arbor was trying to rip me off, as snowboard manufactures buy all their materials off of Alibaba (and if they don't they pay the same prices as Alibaba elswhere). El dorado veneer was $.000005 a square meter! (Metric system in Chinese factories). By my estimation that was way too much. I decided against it, in the back of my head I knew I could get the excact same board at Sports Authority for pennies. Of course it wouldn't have the name or the top sheet, but I have found no evidence to tell me that "different" snowboards are "different" anyways apart from people's opinions (was still fighting the marketing at this point). Sure they might look differnet, and the evil marketing might say they're different, but I suspect that they are all the same underneath that top sheet. 

After a few sleepless nights the marketing was sapping all my strength and willpower. I needed that veneer top sheet. I got online and realized that the price dropped. It was the middle of March and it turns out everybody buys their snowboards at the beginning of the season. Now they have a bunch of stock laying around that no one wants. I bit. "Fuck you marketers! I'm only paying $350!! Hahaha Fuck you!" But it was they who had the last laugh. It turns out I was only buying a fashion accesory, a lifestyle if you will. Or at least that's all I'll get until I find fully substantiated evidence that proves me otherwise...

BTW, I've got both extruded and sintered hase Mervins and they're fine. They ride different than my NS, the above mentioned Arbor, and even my old Morrow, and I appreciate them for that.


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## JonSnow (Jul 24, 2013)

Nolefan2011 said:


> Wow, if everyone tried on boots, and then bought online instead of buying at a store, guess what? Nobody is ever trying on boots again because all the brick and mortar are out of business. If someone gives you the service of going through a boot fit, and were competent, buy from the damn store. I recently did this, and brought up the fact that the internet was already offering 30% off. They gladly matched. Makes me sick hearing stories of people doing that. You take the service and steal it essentially. The online store couldn't provide that either.
> 
> Same goes for demo boards. They are cutting the price down by allowing you to try for a day and crediting to the board, and you still go buy on the net? Shitty.
> 
> ...


What is the service of trying on boots worth to you? Cause in my mind I am not willing to pay someone 100 extra bucks to let me try on their boots. If that is the case I will just order a couple pairs online and return the ones that I don't like/don't fit. Obviously it would be nice if customers did the honorable thing and bought boots from the store that they tried them on at, but I doubt that this is what happens, and isn't the store screwing the customer over for charging a lot more money? If the store is providing a service that they aren't being compensated for, why don't they just charge for the service?

I am not trying to make a case against Lib Tech boards. My favorite board is a Lib Tech T. Rice Pro, but that doesn't mean that I'm not interested in a conversation about whether or not they are overpriced.

I am not suggesting that Lib Tech is all marketing, and never have. I am just saying that they definitely overhype their products, and use a lot of BS marketing/trending ideas to try to push products. I still love their products, but their products are a separate entity from their advertising/marketing campaign, and I can definitely understand why people think their marketing is BS.

I also think that Lib Techs are at a higher price point. From your experience, and mine as well (but I bought my board for 300), I think that they deserve the higher price tag. It seems like there are a bunch of people who disagree though, and I'm interested to hear why. Maybe, next time I won't be buying a Lib Tech.


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## hikerman (Jan 28, 2013)

For myself, if a Mavin board or Capita (board made in a similar economic country) I don't mind paying more, as long as I am getting great quality.


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## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

Do I like the fact that Mervin doesn't fully wrap their edges? Nope. Do I like the fact that Mervin puts some extruded bases on high end boards? Nope.

But, do I get mad about it? Nope. Why? Let them make the business decisions that they want to make and let the market decide. That's the way capitalism works.

I don't personally own any Mervin boards and honestly I never have, though I've rode plenty of them - either demos or friends' boards. Would I pay full retail for one? Hell no. Then again, I don't think I've paid full retail for any piece of snow sliding equipment ever. But, would I pick one up on CL or the like for cheap if the right one came along? Sure, why not.


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## Nivek (Jan 24, 2008)

Things I do know. Margins, 50% at retail is really gucking good. So if something is half off, the shop is making just about nothing or in fact loosing money. Pay rates of factory workers. When considering cost of living and relative inflation, the snowboard factories overseas do not pay any less than the US facilities or relatively speaking even more. That is partly the nature of outsourcing. All things considered, a $35k living wage over there goes a hell of a lot further than here. And the US is loosing its hold on the rules of the factories. China is taking over for itself. And the middle east is also making moves to be the new China. So there is still competition. 

Does Mervin overcharge? Yes. What about the TRS is worth 560 but the Westmark or Era or Paxson or Basic are 400? Capitas are made in Austria, a country that isnt 2nd or 3rd world, so how come you can get a board with more expensive materials, more exact manufacturing, and up to date processes, for less? People quickly forget that yes, Austria is "overseas" but its far from the paradigm of low wages and poor treatment that we associate with that term. So go ahead and make that argument about China without having the proper info to do so, but Austria? Sorry, no. And I have worked in a US factory. Made 11.25 an hour. Thats not a career wage, but it was plenty to live off of on my own. And the boards I was making retailed for mostly under 500 with 2 out of 9 above 500.


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## freshy (Nov 18, 2009)

They are not convincing me to buy a t.rice. No wrap IS easier to fix. I like to fix my boards my self and it's cheap and easy to fix chips or delams, epoxy then clamp, done. Also better to have no wrap when there is some moron sitting on the landing in the park and your are about to smash into them.
And I'd rather have my $700 board built by a snowboarder with a job then a machine or some factory worker who has horses as his hobby. I believe I am getting the best performing board to match my style of riding. There is no $300 board that can compare to boards like the Birdman or the Darker. As for complaining about an extruded base costing too much, sure maybe, I wouldent but one and could care less of its existance. 
At the end of the day I believe most of the high end boards are prety similar and I would be happy on any one of them. But growing up skateboarding, snowboarding and surfing I have a soft spot for the companies that have the same interests. I would say rather give my hard earned money to people who at least give the impression the owner and employees skate, ride, and surf.


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## taco tuesday (Jul 26, 2014)

Aren't we a bit early with the annual "Mervin boards cost too much" thread? Like I said last year, if you don't like it, don't buy one. I have a Billy Goat that I got new old stock never ridden for 240 bucks from REI. I love it. The base is durable as shit. I have hit so many things that I thought would leave scratches or gouges but when I look at the end of the day there is barely a mark on the base (the edges have acquired a few small dings and dents). Rides fast, grips well. A friend of mine has a ns heritage and he cracked the nose of the board even with a full wrap edge. I have probably hit way more shit on my goat (I am not as swift and agile in the trees as him) and the only damage is on the tail from morons in the lift line.


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## ThredJack (Mar 18, 2014)

I've never owned a Mervin board, but I would rather pay the price of one of their boards, and know it was made by Americans. I don't care what the markup is, if I can afford it I will pay it. As long as the board fits my needs, and my local shop has it, it's win win for everyone involved, IMO.


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## rambob (Mar 5, 2011)

taco tuesday said:


> Aren't we a bit early with the annual "Mervin boards cost too much" thread? Like I said last year, if you don't like it, don't buy one. I have a Billy Goat that I got new old stock never ridden for 240 bucks from REI. I love it. The base is durable as shit. I have hit so many things that I thought would leave scratches or gouges but when I look at the end of the day there is barely a mark on the base (the edges have acquired a few small dings and dents). Rides fast, grips well. A friend of mine has a ns heritage and he cracked the nose of the board even with a full wrap edge. I have probably hit way more shit on my goat (I am not as swift and agile in the trees as him) and the only damage is on the tail from morons in the lift line.


$240 for a Billy Goat is a pretty good deal. Just reading thru the 'Mervin Bashing thread' and saw your post and had to comment.


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## snowklinger (Aug 30, 2011)

*get with the program people, you don't even have literate kids*

there is just way too much America hype.

Chinese ftw.


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## f00bar (Mar 6, 2014)

taco tuesday said:


> Aren't we a bit early with the annual "Mervin boards cost too much" thread?


Only by two weeks! I remember this because I bought my CC last year the week after my daughter went back to school after Spring Break. I was all pumped with my new spankin gnu then logged on here and there was a brand new Mervin sucks thread. I was all bummed thinking WHAT HAVE I DONE then I started reading it and remembered, oh ya, its the internet.


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## CassMT (Mar 14, 2013)

linvillegorge said:


> Would I pay full retail for one? Hell no. Then again, I don't think I've paid full retail for any piece of snow sliding equipment ever. But, would I pick one up on CL or the like for cheap if the right one came along? Sure, why not.


the essence of what i was trying to type. my gnu has upped my game, changed my way of riding and even seeing lines. fukkit, i forgot about the money long ago, it would have been well worth full retail (but i scored)


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