# Is Burton really the "top dog" anymore?



## Qball (Jun 22, 2010)

I see lib tech more than anything on Mt Hood. The only burton boards I see are usually old models. Tons of people with their brand new skate bananas on opening day.


----------



## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

More and more riders are branching out and realizing that there are lots of brands out there that make a good board. However, when it comes to sheer volume, yes, Burton is absolutely still at the top of the hill and no one else is even close.


----------



## pontiuspylate (Oct 7, 2010)

linvillegorge said:


> However, when it comes to sheer volume, yes, Burton is absolutely still at the top of the hill and no one else is even close.


If this is the case then why did I barely see any Burton boards/gear on the hill?

I'm just wondering if all the Burton "top dog" talk is just over-exaggerated hype?


----------



## Qball (Jun 22, 2010)

While Burton may not be the majority on your hill, it is still the majority in the industry. One place may be 1 in 20 boards are Burton, while another place could be 15 out of 20.


----------



## Method (Apr 3, 2009)

pontiuspylate said:


> If this is the case then why did I barely see any Burton boards/gear on the hill?
> 
> I'm just wondering if all the Burton "top dog" talk is just over-exaggerated hype?


Well my contention is your basing your entire hypothesis off of one hill"area". Theirs a bigger boarding world out there than your one hill.

I see plenty of fully decked out burton groms ect ect when I ride. But as I'm in the northwest libtech is pretty palpable as well.

On the other end of the spectrum this is the information age and it's not real hard if the said consumer wanted to find other quality brands to buy; so it wouldn't surprise me entirely if the gap has been closed some.


----------



## john doe (Nov 6, 2009)

opening day = serious riders = knowledge about products. Do another count on a normal weekend and see if the results change.


----------



## CMSbored (Apr 2, 2009)

john doe said:


> opening day = serious riders = knowledge about products. Do another count on a normal weekend and see if the results change.


Thats exactly what i was going to say. Your every day rider is not the same as the serious rider.


----------



## Method (Apr 3, 2009)

CMSbored said:


> Thats exactly what i was going to say. Your weekend warrior rider is not the same as the serious rider.



fixed*

asdasdasd


----------



## Bones (Feb 24, 2008)

john doe said:


> opening day = serious riders = knowledge about products. Do another count on a normal weekend and see if the results change.


Yeah, give us an update after Xmas. I'd have to say that opening day doesn't tend to attract the weekend warrior or pre-teen demographic who are a huge part of the equipment/clothing market


----------



## pontiuspylate (Oct 7, 2010)

Method said:


> Well my contention is your basing your entire hypothesis off of one hill"area". Theirs a bigger boarding world out there than your one hill.


I am but I'm not. That is why in my original post I asked next time you are on your hill take a look around and keep a mental note of what you see. I am wondering if it is like this everywhere? 

Yes opening days do bring out the die hards and those guys are not likely to ride Burton. I'm definitely going to take another look around as the season progresses (and on different hills) to see if the numbers change.

This is just something that really has me curious!


----------



## Shocktroop531 (Aug 3, 2010)

Bones said:


> Yeah, give us an update after Xmas. I'd have to say that opening day doesn't tend to attract the weekend warrior or pre-teen demographic who are a huge part of the equipment/clothing market


yea. after christmas when all the kids who's parents got them a board as a xmas present get out on the hill; ride the thing five times; then never go ever again. :laugh:


----------



## BurtonAvenger (Aug 14, 2007)

Burton has something like 60% market share world wide.


----------



## arsenic0 (Nov 11, 2008)

You can really tell NS's marketting(Vince, etc) are getting some good results because i too am seeing a lot more NS boards than i did last year. I saw like 4 people carrying new 2011 NS boards while waiting for the first chair of the season to start...and saw several more with people on my chair throughout the day...

Or maybe im just more aware of NS product designs now than last year lol...


----------



## david_z (Dec 14, 2009)

pontiuspylate said:


> If this is the case then why did I barely see any Burton boards/gear on the hill?


A sample size of 1 is insufficient to make any statistical inferences!


----------



## Zee (Feb 21, 2008)

A lot of Burton gear makes it to the hill 2-3 times a year....


----------



## pontiuspylate (Oct 7, 2010)

david_z said:


> A sample size of 1 is insufficient to make any statistical inferences!


Hence the reason for this entire thread...

Just wondering what everyone else is seeing out there?


----------



## Tarzanman (Dec 20, 2008)

NeverSummer has been chatted up a LOT in the past 2 years or so. In my opinion, their boards now border on the ridiculous as far as pricing for the current season. I live in Atlanta, and 2 local shops carry NS. 2011 Titans are $500+

I doubt I will ever pay that much for two sticks, much less one!


pontiuspylate said:


> Hence the reason for this entire thread...
> 
> Just wondering what everyone else is seeing out there?


----------



## Deviant (Dec 22, 2009)

Tarzanman said:


> NeverSummer has been chatted up a LOT in the past 2 years or so. In my opinion, their boards now border on the ridiculous as far as pricing for the current season. I live in Atlanta, and 2 local shops carry NS. 2011 Titans are $500+
> 
> I doubt I will ever pay that much for two sticks, much less one!


"oh but the quality of the board..."

trust me it's coming...


----------



## Paranormal (Nov 14, 2010)

Tarzanman said:


> NeverSummer has been chatted up a LOT in the past 2 years or so. In my opinion, their boards now border on the ridiculous as far as pricing for the current season. I live in Atlanta, and 2 local shops carry NS. 2011 Titans are $500+
> 
> I doubt I will ever pay that much for two sticks, much less one!



buy used or last years models?

i get what your saying but the reason other makes are cheaper is because they outsource to china and stuff.. idk about you but ill pay a little extra to know that my board was made in america by americans who take pride in not selling out our economy so they can make profits and lower prices. :dunno:

just me though. your opinion may vary


----------



## Tarzanman (Dec 20, 2008)

The economics thing is a large debate that you probably don't know the half of (Keynsians and free-marketers, etc). Though there is something to be said for voting with your dollar, it is difficult enough for me to spend $$ on snowboard gear I only use for 1 or two trips a year, so politics takes a backseat to thrift and practicality.

Its hard (for me) to not justify the ~$200 in savings on a less expensive board on a new shell, or a helmet + extra set of goggles/lenses or bindings.


Paranormal said:


> buy used or last years models?
> 
> i get what your saying but the reason other makes are cheaper is because they outsource to china and stuff.. idk about you but ill pay a little extra to know that my board was made in america by americans who take pride in not selling out our economy so they can make profits and lower prices. :dunno:
> 
> just me though. your opinion may vary


----------



## ev13wt (Nov 22, 2010)

Do you own ANY Burton product? Lets not forget what they did for the sport. 
On the other hand, I think its awesome that there is still some soul left in this sport and the community self polices. Burton is being hated on because they try edging out the competition these days with cut throat type marketing and proprietory technology. 

Just a guess, but I think the Burton reps (shops) make the least amount of money on Burton products. Know what I'm saying?


----------



## david_z (Dec 14, 2009)

Paranormal said:


> buy used or last years models?


It's often difficult to find last year's models for NS boards. They really keep a handle on production - this year in light of the economy I believe they limited production to pre-orders only so if your shop didn't order some back in April, chances are really good that they're not going to get any. They only make 13-14k boards, so they're not flooding the market and there just aren't enough of them to end up in closeout bins or online deep discount sales in March.


----------



## BurtonAvenger (Aug 14, 2007)

Oh noez my board is made in China we're all gonna die from lead paint flakes and bad dog food. 500 plus for a board isn't absurd when you look at whats in it. Now if it was a sandwich constructed, 4 x3 insert, wood core, 0 carbon, biaxle glass yeah I might have an issue.


----------



## Qball (Jun 22, 2010)

Tarzanman said:


> NeverSummer has been chatted up a LOT in the past 2 years or so. In my opinion, their boards now border on the ridiculous as far as pricing for the current season. I live in Atlanta, and 2 local shops carry NS. 2011 Titans are $500+
> 
> I doubt I will ever pay that much for two sticks, much less one!


NS is even with the rest of the market, which is an achievement in it's self because of how expensive it is to have your factory in the US. Many of lib tech boards are 600+.


----------



## david_z (Dec 14, 2009)

BA is right about some of the tech. And besides that $500+ is on par with the industry for higher-end boards. NS is a high-end manufacturer.

The other thing is that NS boards have been hovering around the $500 mark for the last few years - and I think 2011 models is the first time in 2 or 3 years that they've actually raised prices on their boards to keep up with their costs. 

You're not going to get a Cadillac for the price of a G6


----------



## mikemounlio (Oct 6, 2010)

The local hill here in Indiana is 80%Burton gear.


----------



## Method (Apr 3, 2009)

mpdsnowman said:


> So yes Burton is still the top dog and you really cant judge that based on a particular mountain one rides...


Exactly what I'm saying, sure you do it over the season and maybe a few others join in you might get a little more detailed information; but the actual process of just glancing around is rather cursorily done. 

Plus as someone noted before "An individuals burton gear makes it out at least one to three times a year" :laugh:


----------



## Triple8Sol (Nov 24, 2008)

Keep in mind that with the market share numbers, that includes stuff like the rental fleets at sporting goods stores and ski resorts, which tend to be stuff like Burton and Rossignol.


----------



## pontiuspylate (Oct 7, 2010)

Just for the record, I am not a Burton hater or a Burton supporter. I am fairly neutral. I will acknowledge they have done great things for the progression of the sport (especially in the early years). I look at snowboard brands kind of like alcoholic drinks. Everybody has their favorite. Doesen't mean one is better then the other. It's all personal taste and the end result is the same, you get drunk! Just like snowboards, it's all personal taste and the end result is the same, you get on the mountain and shred. 

I just happened to make a casual observation which sparked a curisoty. Hence why I decided to run it by all you guys to see if it is the same everywhere? I hear all the time how Burton is the top dog but it just wasen't present during my observation. Which is also why I asked to see what you guys are noticing on your mountains.

This was by no means a serious study. If it was I would have taken samples from different mountains and at different times of the year. 

All this was was a light hearted question sparked by curiosity during a casual observation.


----------



## pontiuspylate (Oct 7, 2010)

Triple8Sol said:


> Keep in mind that with the market share numbers, that includes stuff like the rental fleets at sporting goods stores and ski resorts, which tend to be stuff like Burton and Rossignol.


I wasen't really focusing on the rental fleet of resorts. I was looking at more of the boarder that owns their own gear. However, I can see if a bunch of resorts use Burton as their rental gear how their sales would stager the other companies. All those rentals add up in overall board sales.


----------



## Leo (Nov 24, 2009)

I am still waiting for the day that people get over this whole Burton thing. Where's Snowolf and his dead horse pictures?

Fact of the matter is, there is no way for you to make a fairly accurate estimation based on that one day, one mountain, a few stops, and just glancing. Burton is a *Global* brand. As others have stated, there are just too many variables involved. Burton remains on top by far regardless of what you personally saw.

Also, I work for a retailer and am an avid Burton outerwear fan so my knowledge of their outerwear is pretty extensive along with decent knowledge of other brands' outerwear. With that said, even with my experience I can't sit and watch people ride by and be able to tell what brand they have with 100% accuracy. Of course, there are exceptions with models that plaster the brand name in big lettering or big ass brand symbol. Nothing personal, but when you say you only saw a few people riding in Burton outerwear, I take it with a grain of salt. How can you possibly tell the difference between solid color outerwear without the above mentioned exceptions? How close are these people riding by you? How fast were they going? Were you able to notice the pocket and zipper arrangements? What about a black Burton Cargo pant and a black Bonfire Spectral pant? Were you also able to see their boots? Was everyone riding with their pants above the boot tongue so you can see the type? Even if they were, what about the factors I mentioned about the proximity and speed?

Many people who dislike Burton hardgoods, like their softgoods from my experience.


----------



## pontiuspylate (Oct 7, 2010)

Leo said:


> How can you possibly tell the difference between solid color outerwear without the above mentioned exceptions?


I wasen't looking at their outerwear as they rode by. As you said, It is nearly impossible to tell what they are truely wearing (unless you recognize the print pattern) when they are screaming by you. My outerwear observation was made in the lift line when I could get a close up look. And when I say outerwear I mean jacket and pants. I didn't look at boots because it was too hard to tell what brand of boots everybody was wearing. My board observation was made while sitting under the lift (while waiting for the rest of my crew to come up) where I could see the underneith of everybodys boards. 90% of boards have the brand name or the board name on the base.

I can tell that this subject (for whatever dumb reason) brings out a lot of emotion in people. All this was was a casual observation and a question. I am by no means saying that Burton is not the top dog. I'm just saying it wasen't prevelent when I was on the hill. LIGHTEN UP PEOPLE!!!! 

If you are seeing different at your hill, awesome! Then describe what you guys are seeing.


----------



## Leo (Nov 24, 2009)

pontiuspylate said:


> LIGHTEN UP PEOPLE!!!!


What makes you think other people or I'm not speaking lightly? Maybe read my posts in a different tone :laugh:

What I said was light hearted chit chat pointing out the fallacies of your observation. I still see a ton of Burton, but I get a lot of days per season so I catch the weekend warriors and locals alike. People already said it... it's mostly the few days a season riders that rock the B from head to toe. I see a lot of Rides and K2's in Michigan.

Been catching quite a few Arbors as well. Boat loads of Burton gear though.

I can care less if Burton is top dog or not. I'm still rocking their outerwear with my Flow bindings :cheeky4:


----------



## lisevolution (Sep 20, 2007)

I agree with all the previous statements...it was opening day which is definitely core riders and much more chance of them riding something other than Burton because we all know you can't be "core" and ride Burton Lol. Here in the North East Burton still definitely dominates the market with Ride being a close second and Rome and K2 also showing a big presence. Lib and Gnu have started making some inroads but I rarely see a NeverSummer or Dinosaurs Will Die, Unity etc here in the east. In fact if you were to go to my local ski mart on LI you're pretty much limited to just Burton, Ride, K2 and Nitro. They just started carrying Gnu stuff last season but are very limited in the selection. A couple of shops sell the Lib stuff and NeverSummer stuff but again in very limited quantities. I find that where you are definitely makes a big difference in what type of equipment you see on the hill.


----------



## Method (Apr 3, 2009)

I think we're all pretty light hearted about this haphazard thought process . We're just a analytical bunch :laugh: and need a thorough evaluation of this important theory


----------



## david_z (Dec 14, 2009)

since we're dealing with very small sample might i suggest a chi-square test?


----------



## Bones (Feb 24, 2008)

lisevolution said:


> Here in the North East Burton still definitely dominates the market with Ride being a close second and Rome and K2 also showing a big presence. Lib and Gnu have started making some inroads but I rarely see a NeverSummer or Dinosaurs Will Die, Unity etc here in the east.


+1. I was in my big, local, hardcore snowsport shop on the weekend snooping around. Hardware was Burton, Ride, K2 with a sprinkling of Rome and K2. One model of Gnu and 2 Lib Tech's boards. Forget NS, Batelon, Atomic, etc. Outerwear was your choice of Burton, Sessions or Ride. 

Demo days around here are Burton...period.


----------



## Willy36 (Dec 29, 2008)

Newb hills are covered in Burton.


----------



## Deviant (Dec 22, 2009)

pontiuspylate said:


> I can tell that this subject (for whatever dumb reason) brings out a lot of emotion in people. All this was was a casual observation and a question. I am by no means saying that Burton is not the top dog. I'm just saying it wasen't prevelent when I was on the hill. LIGHTEN UP PEOPLE!!!!
> 
> If you are seeing different at your hill, awesome! Then describe what you guys are seeing.



All burton popularity/quality threads turn into a big prick waving dick fight everytime, honestly how many of these threads do we need?


----------



## SPAZ (May 2, 2009)

Qball said:


> I see lib tech more than anything on Mt Hood. The only burton boards I see are usually old models. Tons of people with their brand new skate bananas on opening day.


That's mostly because your in Mervin's backyard.

I think I will stick out like a sore thumb this season on my Revolver (in a good way). Barely anyone I talk to knows of them, except for the local longboarding scene.

From what I have heard talking to people, a lot of people are getting Ride boards this season. But being near Rome and Burtons HQ's in Vermont, they are probably the most influential brands here. I did see a lot of Skate Bananas last year, and I saw multiple people pick them up at the Ski-Snowboard Expo a few weeks back. An acquaintance of mine I saw there got a Burton, but I did give him flack because of that :laugh:
Another friend of mine bought Burton boots and bindings there, but that was partially because they were a steal. The other part is that he probably is not very aware of the hate on the brand.


----------



## Deviant (Dec 22, 2009)

SPAZ said:


> The other part is that he probably is not very aware of the hate on the brand.



..Or he could care less what others think and lives his own life. :dunno:


----------



## SPAZ (May 2, 2009)

How about I ask him :laugh:


----------



## fredericp64 (Jan 4, 2010)

Willy36 said:


> Newb hills are covered in Burton.


That's in part because the newbs buy from those multisport stores that only carry Burton and the occasional K2.


----------



## iKimshi (Feb 18, 2009)

Around where I ride on the crappy East Coast, most people I see ride Burton. There are only a hand few of other companies on the slopes, but then again that was last season. It may change this year.


----------



## Beatlesfan888 (Jul 8, 2010)

yeah i know what you mean i ride in NH everyone has burton. I almost always see new snowboarders dragged into buying burton gear because thats the biggest brand they know of


----------



## SPAZ (May 2, 2009)

iKimshi said:


> Around where I ride on the crappy East Coast, most people I see ride Burton. There are only a hand few of other companies on the slopes, but then again that was last season. It may change this year.


I used to also think that the east cost was craptacular, but lately I am starting to appreciate it. Maybe it was because I wanted to blame the ice here for my riding problems, or maybe because in the last couple of years there has been more light shed on our mountains, but it could be worse. Don't get me wrong though, I'm still planning on moving to Colorado in three years.


----------



## HoboMaster (May 16, 2010)

Deviant said:


> All burton popularity/quality threads turn into a big prick waving dick fight everytime, honestly how many of these threads do we need?


NEEDS MORE BURTON DICKFIGHT!


----------



## Snowfox (Dec 26, 2009)

david_z said:


> since we're dealing with very small sample might i suggest a chi-square test?


I see what you did there.


----------



## Leo (Nov 24, 2009)

SPAZ said:


> I used to also think that the east cost was craptacular, but lately I am starting to appreciate it. Maybe it was because I wanted to blame the ice here for my riding problems, or maybe because in the last couple of years there has been more light shed on our mountains, but it could be worse. Don't get me wrong though, I'm still planning on moving to Colorado in three years.


I've come to appreciate Michigan riding as well. More and more I hear people tell me that riding in icey conditions makes you a better rider. I'm testing that out full force out west in Dec.


----------



## pontiuspylate (Oct 7, 2010)

I'm going boarding again this weekend. And seeing how it is a holiday weekend that should bring out more of the weekend warrior boarders. I'll take another look around and see if the numbers change at all.

I can completely understand about newb boarders riding Burton. For a newb boarder the only place they know where to get a snowboard would be from a multisport store i.e. REI, Big 5, Dicks, etc. And yes, those stores are always packed with Burton gear. However, with the plethra of information that can be found on the internet, I'm surprised that more newb's are not more educated in snowboarding gear. Call me stupid but if I was getting ready to drop $1,000 on a full set of gear you would think I would want to be a little bit educated instead of just excepting whatever BS the salesman at the store (who probably doesn't even ride) told me.

Thats probably why I didn't see very much Burton that day. Opening day brings out the die hards which are more educated in snowboarding gear. But like I said, we'll see how it looks this holiday weekend.

Happy Thanksgiving to all!!!


----------



## SPAZ (May 2, 2009)

Leo said:


> I've come to appreciate Michigan riding as well. More and more I hear people tell me that riding in icey conditions makes you a better rider. I'm testing that out full force out west in Dec.


Thats sick man. Where you headed too?


----------



## david_z (Dec 14, 2009)

I still see a lot of Burton boards (based on market share this is to-be-expected) here in Michigan, but definitely over the last few years there has been a change away from the other "mass market" companies like Rossignol etc., and I've noticed a lot more Arbors, Never Summers, and (this surprised me) Bataleons on the slopes. Lib is fairly well-represented here but mostly with the Pickle but I did see a T-Rice at the bar this evening, parked right next to an NS Evo.


----------



## shifty00 (Oct 17, 2010)

That is one graphic dead horse picture.. ewwwwweww


----------



## Milo303 (Apr 6, 2009)

john doe said:


> opening day = serious riders = knowledge about products. Do another count on a normal weekend and see if the results change.


Bingo

It's the rich people who buy top of the line gear each year and don't know shit about what products are actually good. And Burton openly caters towards them... They're trying to be a "high end" brand.

The core groups of riders who actually 20-50+ days a year aren't riding Burton shit because it doesn't last. Rich folk who take 1 or 2 vacations a year and spend thousands of dollars on it buy Burton gear.


----------



## pontiuspylate (Oct 7, 2010)

Well I was back out on the hill yesterday and took another look. I noticed more of a Burton presence but not by much. It also seemed like a good majority people that had Burton boards were kids (16 years old and younger). So I can only assume it was a mommy and daddy decision to buy Burton. As for outerwear there was also a slight increase but it was a 50/50 split with adults and kids sporting the gear. There was still a ton of sessions gear and K2/Ride still dominated the board scene. 

I think I'll take another look around after christmas and see how things change. I'm sure I'll see a lot more Skate Bananas. :laugh:


----------



## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

shifty00 said:


> That is one graphic dead horse picture.. ewwwwweww


What. The. Fuck.



:laugh:


----------



## MistahTaki (Apr 24, 2010)

today was my first day out and i saw so many neversummer boards it was unbelievable. 

and you say that your local hill opened? it says you are from abq, are you talking about sandia? they have like no snow.


----------



## MistahTaki (Apr 24, 2010)

and i would like to say....who cares what people ride or wear. it doesnt concern me.


----------



## Kublakan (Nov 9, 2009)

Not a fan boy by any strench of the imagination my quiver is very diverse. Let's be realistic here, Burton has some of the best tech out, I have had ridden a ton of boards and my quiver is quite thick and nothing tops the EST set up. Yeah so they were smart investors and wanted to make their product better by buying out a company that has their tech. WELCOME TO BIG BUSINESS AMERICA FOLKS! At the end of the day Burton has done nothing but force other manufactures to produce superior quality, whose complaining about that. 

By the way if anyone is looking for a new board I just picked up a 2010 Forum Helm PHENOMINAL!


----------



## HouseMuzik (Dec 22, 2008)

MistahTaki said:


> today was my first day out and i saw so many neversummer boards it was unbelievable.


I'd be interested to hear from a few people about NS on the hill.. I've been pushing to get that line in our shop next year. Rep's stopping by next month... some anecdotal data is always helpful to make a decision hah


----------



## MistahTaki (Apr 24, 2010)

HouseMuzik said:


> I'd be interested to hear from a few people about NS on the hill.. I've been pushing to get that line in our shop next year. Rep's stopping by next month... some anecdotal data is always helpful to make a decision hah


even cars that were passing by had neversummer stickers on their cars.


----------



## pontiuspylate (Oct 7, 2010)

MistahTaki said:


> and you say that your local hill opened? it says you are from abq, are you talking about sandia? they have like no snow.


No, I'm not talking about Sandia. I'm taking about Sipapu. I ride Sipapu just as much as I ride Sandia and Santa Fe. Mostly because I get to board there for free. Plus it's just a little hop over the mountains if I want to ride Taos or Angel Fire.


----------



## ev13wt (Nov 22, 2010)

Thats it I'm ordering a never summer teeshirt.

I'll be the king when I'm in Austria this winter.


----------



## pontiuspylate (Oct 7, 2010)

MistahTaki said:


> and i would like to say....who cares what people ride or wear. it doesnt concern me.


I really don't care either. It's not going to affect what I ride or what I think of people just because they may be on Burton board. If someone has skills and can shred a Burton board then more power to them. This is not a bash on Burton. 

I just thought it was an interesting observation worth discussing because of the contradiction between people claiming Burton to be "top dog" and actual observations. Afterall, this is a forum where we discuss questions. Granted I haven't been on this forum for very long and I appologize if this topic is beating a dead horse. But honestly, if you can't contribute to the thread topic constructively then "who cares what you post, it doesn't concern me".


----------



## oneshot (Oct 8, 2010)

Lucid Notion = Top Dogs! where top dogs = dumbasses


----------



## arsenic0 (Nov 11, 2008)

HouseMuzik said:


> I'd be interested to hear from a few people about NS on the hill.. I've been pushing to get that line in our shop next year. Rep's stopping by next month... some anecdotal data is always helpful to make a decision hah


I can tell you with certainty there is a LOT more NS board's out there now than last year. On opening day alone i ran into or saw atleast 5 NS boards, mostly SL's and one Raptor.

This will be my...3rd season with my NS, and for the last few years there wasnt really any out here. My guess is that forums like this, and their more wide spread attendance of demo days has gotten them followers. At 500 bucks, im sure many people come to forums like this or other sites with reviews and want a NS board, but wont until they demo it.

I bugged Vince to get out here into the PNW last year and they did, hopefully they do so again.

That said i also saw quite a few Gnu Pickles, i only remember it because i thought it was awkward i saw three seperate people with it within a few hours. But it is an easy to spot topsheet...


----------



## Deviant (Dec 22, 2009)

Milo303 said:


> The core groups of riders who actually 20-50+ days a year aren't riding Burton shit because it doesn't last.


My 60+ days a year on a Burton board and bindings that have held up perfectly for 2 seasons makes your point invalid. Guess I'm not "core" enough though :dunno:


----------



## HouseMuzik (Dec 22, 2008)

^^^ seconded. I have ridden my hero about 50 times since i bought it possibly more.. and except for some cosmetic shit.. it has held up incredibly well.

Here's another thing.. with the Burton hate.. NS isn't much better when it comes to price (i.e. the "you're paying for the name with burton" argument). So is it ok for NS to do it, and burton not just because it is burton?

I do think NS' boards are a bit non-competitive when it comes to price/feature set...


----------



## Leo (Nov 24, 2009)

Love these sweeping generalizations about brands like Burton from people who have only ridden a model or two from who knows which tier of boards they offer.

My '07 Burton TWC is still riding like a champ with well over 200 days. This is on crappy East Coast ice and man made crud too. 

Same with my '08 Burton boots, gloves, and outerwear. Hell, even my Burton beanies have yet to shrink after who knows how many washes and drier cycles. And I wear them off the mountain as well.


----------



## Leo (Nov 24, 2009)

Snowskool said:


> I think K2 and Ride could give them a serious run for their money. *No one likes a company that 'cleans up' in the lead marketing stakes*. Personally, I would give my business to smaller, more local companies in the current financial climate who need the revenue.


Another generalization. 

By the way, how do you know who needs revenue and who doesn't? There are owners like those at NeverSummer that really don't try to become top dog. So it might seem like they are struggling for revenue when in reality they aren't. Some of these small niche companies are 100% content with their market share.

Sort of like this:

I would be completely content with 10 million dollars. My friend might not want to stop at 10 mil and aim to increase his wealth.

Remember, companies like NeverSummer don't just build snowboards. They use their factories to build other products for other vendors. NeverSummer makes skis for other brands. I wouldn't be surprised if companies like them make things like skateboard decks, surf boards, or other similar (in production process) equipment.


----------



## HouseMuzik (Dec 22, 2008)

NS is also a skateboard brand.

I will criticize Burton on one thing.. their low end outerwear is overpriced and well... cheap. But overall their boards are quality. This year I'm hearing quite a few of the new boards are crappy from those who were at the stratton demo last year.

This "you pay for the name" shit is what really burns me up about the burton hate, because there are quite a few other board companies doing the same thing and getting no flak for it at all.


----------



## Leo (Nov 24, 2009)

Yea, NS makes sick longboards. We carry them.

I found that the 2011 Burton board line is hit and miss. Some people hate it while others love it. There are very few in between people.

It's their whole Flying V camber thing that they are pushing. Lot of stuff going on with it and it takes people out of their comfort zone. I immediately felt something different about that rocker design when I started skating to the lift line. I quite liked it.

Then you have Custom lovers that are angry at Burton for replacing the awesome V-Rocker for the "odd" feeling Flying-V.


----------



## david_z (Dec 14, 2009)

HouseMuzik said:


> Here's another thing.. with the Burton hate.. NS isn't much better when it comes to price (i.e. the "you're paying for the name with burton" argument). So is it ok for NS to do it, and burton not just because it is burton?
> 
> I do think NS' boards are a bit non-competitive when it comes to price/feature set...


NS boards are factory made in the USA. You pay extra for that. Whether that price premium is worth it, is of course, a subjective and individual valuation.

NS boards also have the best warranty term in the business. You pay extra for that, too. Of course it's a valid criticism (just like buying new cars) to say that it's stupid to pay extra for a warranty that 99%+ of the time you'll never need, but again, that's a personal value judgment.


----------



## HouseMuzik (Dec 22, 2008)

Yep, but i always thought building in stuff like better warranty terms into a product's price is not an excuse to charge more. But a lot of manufacturers will do it. As for being made in the USA, that is a plus, but everything made in America is not automatically better.

Like you said, its up to the individual


----------



## david_z (Dec 14, 2009)

HouseMuzik said:


> Yep, but i always thought building in stuff like better warranty terms into a product's price is not an excuse to charge more. But a lot of manufacturers will do it.


Right - essentially when this is your business model, your profit center is selling warranties that nobody will ever need and few people would be willing to pay for _a la carte_. This isn't a knock against NS specifically, since many, many, many manufacturers in all walks of life do the exact same thing. Almost every manufacturer produces very high quality products with very low failure/defect rates like 1% or fewer.

The best example is the automotive industry where very large portion of a new vehicle's price is just the manufacturer warranty which they use to subsidize the rest of their costs. 

That's why you can get a 4-year old BMW with low miles on it for $25K which will still run like a champ for years to come, but the same vehicle brand new will cost $45-50k. Subtracting the actual use value over a few years, you're paying $10-15k for a warranty that almost nobody will ever need to use and even when it is used, will only on average require a few thousand dollars worth of work.



HouseMuzik said:


> As for being made in the USA, that is a plus, but everything made in America is not automatically better.
> 
> Like you said, its up to the individual


Right - not necessarily _better_, but generally operating costs and labor costs in the USA are _higher_ which means that the MSRP is going to be higher (generally speaking) to account for these.


----------



## little devil (Aug 18, 2009)

Why is this thread still going? Christ!

People don't like burton for many of reasons. People like burton for many reasons (appearently) 

IMHO I'd rather support the smaller dudes in the industry. Not one who has 60% of the industry ( if b.a.'s correct) If I understood that correctly aswell.

It's funny the only people defending them are the people who bought into them. But I digress. 

Side note. The edges on my seven are the smallest thinnest look like wire thin edges of ALL my boards. Including a CRAPPY Sims from sport check


----------



## Leo (Nov 24, 2009)

little devil said:


> Why is this thread still going? Christ!
> 
> People don't like burton for many of reasons. People like burton for many reasons (appearently)
> 
> ...


Who else is supposed to defend them? :laugh:

Same could be said about the haters. Look how many hate them who A) Haven't ever ridden a Burton B) Have only ridden a couple of models and not even the better quality ones.

No argument about pricing though. It's not that I think Burton is the best company. It's just that people blow things out of proportion when dissing them. They have gear for every single level of rider. There is bound to be overpriced crap in the mixup. And this is only when taking current year pricing into consideration. The pricing argument falls apart after they go on previous year sale.

I'm equally a huge fan of Lib Tech, K2, Rome, Flow, and Ride. My new board is a K2 TD, my next bindings are Romes, I want a T.Rice, and I still love my Flow bindings. Being blind to brands is fun.

When I start balling, I'm going to buy a NeverSummer and slap on a pair of Burton bindings on it just to spite all the haters :laugh:


----------



## little devil (Aug 18, 2009)

There's companies I'd defend without riding them. Because I like the way their company is or how they do it.

I've never rode a smokin but I like the way their doing them. Making thier own boards not giving as fuck is dope.

So even though I dont have a smokin I'd deff stand up for what there doing.

That's what i'm saying. Who here doesn't ride a BURTON yet applaud their ways. 

I'm not talking products and how htey stack up(quality wise), but companies and how they do there shit.


----------



## Leo (Nov 24, 2009)

little devil said:


> There's companies I'd defend without riding them. Because I like the way their company is or how they do it.
> 
> I've never rode a smokin but I like the way their doing them. Making thier own boards not giving as fuck is dope.
> 
> ...


Yea, no argument there. That's a valid reason not to support a company. I was talking about the ones who talk about their quality, yet they have 0 to minimum experience with it.


----------



## pontiuspylate (Oct 7, 2010)

I think this thread has gotten a little hijacked.

Back to the topic... What are you guys seeing on the hill? A lot of Burton? A lot of K2? A lot of NS? What brands seem to dominate your hill?

So far K2 and Ride dominate my hill. What about your hill?


----------



## arsenic0 (Nov 11, 2008)

pontiuspylate said:


> I think this thread has gotten a little hijacked.
> 
> Back to the topic... What are you guys seeing on the hill? A lot of Burton? A lot of K2? A lot of NS? What brands seem to dominate your hill?
> 
> So far K2 and Ride dominate my hill. What about your hill?


A lot of burton Rental boards lol? Going up the lift above the newbie area everyone on their ass you can get a good metric seeing everyones bottom sheets and a lot are rental boards...

Besides that its really hard to tell, only certain boards really stick out to me when im standing in line. Board's like Arbor are easy to spot in a crowd for example.


----------



## pontiuspylate (Oct 7, 2010)

That is to be expected on the bunny hill. I sat under the top of the main lift and was able to get a good look at the base of everyones board. I could tell what the rental boards were because they were all Rossignol and all the same model. Even with all the rentals, K2 and Ride still outnumbered everybody. I guess nobody likes Burton in NM. :laugh:


----------



## HoboMaster (May 16, 2010)

The only other NS board I've seen at my mountain is ridden by some kid who has mad park skills, Dash Kamp. I see LOTS of K2 and Burton on the "average" boarder people. Most of the teenager/park rats have Libtech, Capita, Rome, Stepchild, Ride's etc..


----------



## TheJMay (Nov 28, 2010)

A lot of my friends, and their parents think that Burton has some kind of monopoly on snowboarding, which totally isn't true, but burton does a good job at advertising, and pretty much all rental boards are burtons. it's not necessarily a bad thing, but it is taking away from the companies that may have a product better suited towards a particular rider, but the rider doesn't know about that company because all they know is Burton.

first real post woo.


----------



## HouseMuzik (Dec 22, 2008)

Burton doesn't have a true "monopoly" on the market, but from what I have heard and seen.. it probably has about 50% of the market on its own


----------



## Phenom (Dec 15, 2007)

I think it's funny how quickly hating on burton became the cool thing to do. I get it though, it's been so popular that it's created this wave of self-proclaimed revolutionaries who think they are hella steezy y0 because they are one of the ones who don't ride a burton. Then this entire anti-burton agenda was formed and now there are multiple reasons people give; their quality is slipping, they want to stick it to the man, or whatever. Whatever the case may be, I put any agendas aside and went with gear that I liked best. I've followed demo days around the Northeast several seasons in a row. I've tried a lot of different boards from a lot of different manufactures, and I chose a burton that I'm 100% happy with. Somehow though, I get associated with being a noob and a follower, but the kid who has never tried a single board in his life, but get's a rome for christmas because his friend says "omg d00d u gotta get dis rome board cuz it is teh epic win!!!1!!11" is hella cool.

But now the real funny thing is the same thing that happened to burton is happening to rome. More and more people are buying rome stuff, as it's become one of, if not the, cool brand to go with. Rome gear will be all over the place, just he way burton is and has been. Eventually more and more noobs will blindly gravitate towards Rome, and the hate will start to form. Burton stuff will become increasingly rare, then I will be cool again!


----------



## Justin (Jun 2, 2010)

I own almost nothing burton and am not a seasoned snowboarder but i do work in the business world (most ppl do) and i think burton does a great job as a company. They advertise well and are very smart by getting ppl to use their boards as rentals and having kids programs. Some ppl say that they don't like there business practices?!? LOL you don't like things to be successful? I guess you better not use any microsoft programs and get rid of ur xbox. Stop hating ppl and companies for working at being a good business... its kinda what they are supposed to do. Companies that "make there own boards and don't give a fuck" won't be around very long. If your small company has been around for a while then they do give a fuck and ur to dumb to figuire it out. No one is making boards for free or at a loss, not on purpose anyway and not for long.
money, money... MONEY


----------



## oneshot (Oct 8, 2010)

you can't patent fun.


----------



## Justin (Jun 2, 2010)

oneshot said:


> you can't patent fun.


true, but you can ideas and devices, some of those will be used by ppl to have fun. You could always make ur own snowboards if snowboarding is the only fun thing. You just can't sell it to make money. lol you could always become a failed company and give snowboards away. Or if ur that biter just switch to skis


----------



## Qball (Jun 22, 2010)

Justin said:


> I own almost nothing burton and am not a seasoned snowboarder but i do work in the business world (most ppl do) and i think burton does a great job as a company. They advertise well and are very smart by getting ppl to use their boards as rentals and having kids programs. Some ppl say that they don't like there business practices?!? LOL you don't like things to be successful? I guess you better not use any microsoft programs and get rid of ur xbox. Stop hating ppl and companies for working at being a good business... its kinda what they are supposed to do. Companies that "make there own boards and don't give a fuck" won't be around very long. If your small company has been around for a while then they do give a fuck and ur to dumb to figuire it out. No one is making boards for free or at a loss, not on purpose anyway and not for long.
> money, money... MONEY


It's not because they're successful, it's because when they're shit breaks they have been know to not give a fuck.


----------



## Deviant (Dec 22, 2009)

That's odd, because everyone I've talked to that has had to call rider services has had good experiences with them. Case in point a buddy of mine had his spring break in his ratchet (Missions), they not only replaced it they offered to replace the ladders as well if they were looking worn. Was standing right there next to him in the shop when he made the call. All they wanted was his address, name, phone and binding model and he was off the phone with the new ratchet coming his way. Sounds like they gave a fuck since he didn't ask or say anything about the ladders when he called either. :dunno:


----------



## shifty00 (Oct 17, 2010)

Yeah I broke a base plate on 07 missions and they sent me O-ten's missions. Didn't even take them long to ship, so I only lost about a week of the season. But the simple fact that they broke in the first place was enough to turn me off from Burton. But I sill use the same bindings and I use Moto boots (that packed out in one season and now feel like junk) until my broke ass can afford some quality gear.


----------



## little devil (Aug 18, 2009)

Justin said:


> Some ppl say that they don't like there business practices?!? LOL you don't like things to be successful?


I don`t mind being successful. But when the person making the big money is on a different continent than 90% (if not more) of the product being made that`s some good walmart shit. Good for them, I`d rather try to support the smaller dudes.
That`s my opinion, sorry if you don`t like it.



Justin said:


> Companies that "make there own boards and don't give a fuck" won't be around very long.


Not giving a fuck in regard to their buck ferton board. Time will only tell how long they last. Can you give me the winning lotto numbers with that crystal ball of urs.


----------



## HoboMaster (May 16, 2010)

You are right, Burton follows a winning business model that rakes in lots of profits and happy shareholders. But you know what people are starting to realize? Unregulated Capitalism has failed them, turning the land of opportunity into the land of the %5 who own the land of opportunity.

People like smaller companies because it represents a business model and a time when there were no multinational corporations who outsource a huge percentage of their jobs to China and India because it will increase their profits.

I read an article recently about how we percieve how well we are off compared to our parents,(think 1920's-1970's), and what it reveals is that we have traded our job market, job security, health benefits, pensions, retirement, and a high-pay relative to economy for a bunch of cheap consumerism crap made in China via Walmart.

Small businesses cannot even be competitive anymore, because ultimately corporations have perfected the cheapest possible ways of manufacturing consumerism items. With the huge capital and shareholder cashflow these corporation get, it allows them to produce items at probably half the cost of a legit fully American based company.

But you know who is to blame? We, the consumers are to blame because we got lazy and decided above all things we really needed all this cheap consumerism crap, this electricity, this huge gas guzzling SUV and this water starving lawn. 

Businesses merely supply to a clientèle wants. Apparently we want to have a lower quality of life so we can lug around a bunch of shit...


From a Capitalistic business perspective Burton really only deserves praise. I just merely think the type of business model Burton is starting to use is a culprit for many of our problems.


----------



## Justin (Jun 2, 2010)

little devil said:


> I don`t mind being successful. But when the person making the big money is on a different continent than 90% (if not more) of the product being made that`s some good walmart shit. Good for them, I`d rather try to support the smaller dudes.
> That`s my opinion, sorry if you don`t like it.
> 
> 
> ...


Which lotto? lol

All countries are dependent on foreign investment (usa included). And you are welcome to support whatever companies you want. The fact is that mexico and china make good quailty goods, often times better than north america and europe. Thats why the jobs got shipped similar quailty for a fraction of the cost. Theoretically you want those jobs to leave because it means that you get the higher tech more money jobs into your country, of coarse there is a transition peroid (that is straight out of a text book so take it however you want). Fact is world has changed. You can sit around and wish it didn't but it did, go with it or fix the problems to make it go back to the way it was... good luck.

ps, pm me for winning lotto numbers every month.
Disclamer: i accept no responsibility for any statments made or numbers chosen... unless it is a good statment or a winning lotto number. In which case pm me for my address for my half of the winnings


----------



## Justin (Jun 2, 2010)

HoboMaster said:


> You are right, Burton follows a winning business model that rakes in lots of profits and happy shareholders. But you know what people are starting to realize? Unregulated Capitalism has failed them, turning the land of opportunity into the land of the %5 who own the land of opportunity.
> 
> People like smaller companies because it represents a business model and a time when there were no multinational corporations who outsource a huge percentage of their jobs to China and India because it will increase their profits.
> 
> ...


You are right the consumer is to blame. And burton will never cause a major problem for your country. The government will most definitely let burton go bankrupt if they fail. The USA's world economic status will not be effected if burton fails unlike the banking system.

Outsourcing = good. Similar quaility, lower cost for the consumer, more profit. If you force all produciton to stay in your country you provide jobs for an extra 600 ppl and some spin off industry and then screw over the rest of the country cuase a pair of nikes cost $500 and then you can't afford to snowboard anymore cause you gotta buy shoes. Ship the low skilled low paying jobs out and replace them with higher education/higher tech/higher paying jobs. There will always be a small market for the NS, just will be hard for them to become big, they have to focus on the highest quailty gear and can't get caught up into becoming a high production company.


----------

