# Heat Fit FAQ - Love your feet



## Winter_Lion

I just had this done yesterday by an REI employee. Question: do you recommend that a heat fitting be done first with the stock sole first or go for the recommendation of an aftermarket sole?
What are the recommended cooking times for liners? Is a Burton cooking time different from a Salomon?
Is sitting okay instead of slightly bent knees?

Sent from my VS990 using Tapatalk


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## Wiredsport

Winter_Lion said:


> I just had this done yesterday by an REI employee. Question: do you recommend that a heat fitting be done first with the stock sole first or go for the recommendation of an aftermarket sole?
> What are the recommended cooking times for liners? Is a Burton cooking time different from a Salomon?
> Is sitting okay instead of slightly bent knees?
> 
> Sent from my VS990 using Tapatalk


Hi Lion,

You will want to fit with the actual sock and insert that you will ride in. No loaner socks please . Liner specs are specific to model not brand. This is true of temperature and suggested heat time.


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## DaftDeft

If we have third party insoles that are also heat molded, what should the process be? Heat up and mold both at the same time?


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## Wiredsport

DaftDeft said:


> If we have third party insoles that are also heat molded, what should the process be? Heat up and mold both at the same time?


Hi,

The moldable top layer on heat moldable inserts is also closed cell EVA foam. As above, different products have different temperature ranges for molding. Your insert will very likely have a different temperature range than your boot liner. Your fitter should take all inserts out of the boot liners (stock and aftermarket), do their heat process on the liner, then put only your "cold" thermoform insert into the boot liners and do the heat fit. The insert can then be heated separately based on the correct specs for that product. This maintains the correct spec for both products and still molds the liner to the insert. Most importantly, everything that will go into the liner will be in the liner when it is molded to your foot. This is crucial. The heat fit will only be valuable if you are fitting to the actual insert, foot, socks that will be used when riding.

The EVA layer on heat moldable inserts is typically very thin. The EVA in most snowboard boot liners is typically the full thickness of the liner. There is a lot of EVA to reposition in a boot liner in a heat fit. This can have a dramatic impact on fit and performance. Due to the very thin EVA layer on footbeds the effect is much more subtle.


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## Rogue

Why no toe caps? So we should use our regular shred socks to mold in? Do you do boot fitting at your shop, even though it's primarily distribution?


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## Deacon

Rogue said:


> Why no toe caps? So we should use our regular shred socks to mold in? Do you do boot fitting at your shop, even though it's primarily distribution?


Toe caps are a sales trick to make boots " more comfortable" in the shop. It's just oversizing the toe area for folks that don't know (or want, I suppose) a performance fit. 

That's my take on it anyways, from the time I've spent in shops listening to sales people sell wrong sized boots.


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## Deacon

Wiredsport said:


> *What is a heat moldable liner?* Heat moldable (AKA heat fit, AKA thermofit, AKA thermoform) liners are made primarily of closed cell EVA foam. Different compounds and densities do exist. The temperature range for the given liner's materials is relatively narrow and will vary by the materials that are used. The range may be 20 degrees on one liner type (say, 160 to 180) and 15 degrees on another (say, 180 to 195). The ranges for various liners may or may not overlap.


So, for clarity, when heated to the proper temperature, the foam expands. Then you insert your foot and displace the material where your foot is, and as the foam cools, it stays there, correct?


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## Wiredsport

Rogue said:


> Why no toe caps? So we should use our regular shred socks to mold in? Do you do boot fitting at your shop, even though it's primarily distribution?


Hi Rogue,

Toe caps take us in the wrong direction. The create extra room in the liner which can allow foot motion. It is both unnecessary and detracts from fit and performance. The only time I suggest "building up" the toes during the fit is when we are trying to accommodate something very atypical in that region. I prefer to address that in a selective second fit if needed. 

We moved to a larger, more efficient facility this year. We needed to sacrifice the retail showcase and customer facing portions of our business to get this done. Growth pains. I guess we are just e-fitters for now. Its sad after all these years...but the knees on my jeans look great .


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## Wiredsport

Deacon said:


> So, for clarity, when heated to the proper temperature, the foam expands. Then you insert your foot and displace the material where your foot is, and as the foam cools, it stays there, correct?


Essentially, yes. The EVA takes on a gel-like feel when heated properly.


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## Kaladryn

So many shops give alternate information, or just don't know what they are doing. You recommend going to a shop, but most shops are going to do it differently than you said, I mean sure we can tell them things like no toe caps, or standing flat, but at that point, you might as well do it yourself it seems to me. Good shops and professionals are surprisingly hard to find in some areas but extremely common in others, or I just can't find them...


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## neni

Thanks for the info!
Contradicts what I've been told in various shops (of which I'm not surprised; been told many incoherent stuff even between different shops :dry: One guy said that they will loose a bit of insulation capacity cos molding lets the liner thickness _shrink_. The other claimed that heat molding can ompensate for the breaking in after use and therefore one should wait cos heating the liner will make it get _thicker_. Huh...?).

They, however, all said that heat fit is just optional, that I should ride my boots before doing the heat fit cos the boot will mold itself and only if pressure points arise, or too much space spots, respectively, I should come back and let them mold in the shop. (In fact, with all the many boots I had, I _never_ had one heat molded, too in doupt that they dont actually know what they do...)

Still have an unused new Dynafit AT boot at home. So... with this one, shall I go back to the shop and let them do the work _before_ using them even tho they fit very snug w/o pressure points? Will heat molding make the liner actually thinner or thicker? Is the insulation capacity loss true?


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## Deacon

Lol, I now have ZERO confidence that any shop I've been in knows the correct specs for ANY liner they're fitting. I've never seen them check the specs prior to throwing them in the oven, they only do it on request (never heard it offered or recommended). I'll be researching my own liners from now on.


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## Wiredsport

neni said:


> Thanks for the info!
> Contradicts what I've been told in various shops (of which I'm not surprised; been told many incoherent stuff even between different shops :dry: One guy said that they will loose a bit of insulation capacity cos molding lets the liner thickness _shrink_. The other claimed that heat molding can ompensate for the breaking in after use and therefore one should wait cos heating the liner will make it get _thicker_. Huh...?).
> 
> They, however, all said that heat fit is just optional, that I should ride my boots before doing the heat fit cos the boot will mold itself and only if pressure points arise, or too much space spots, respectively, I should come back and let them mold in the shop. (In fact, with all the many boots I had, I _never_ had one heat molded, too in doupt that they dont actually know what they do...)
> 
> Still have an unused new Dynafit AT boot at home. So... with this one, shall I go back to the shop and let them do the work _before_ using them even tho they fit very snug w/o pressure points? Will heat molding make the liner actually thinner or thicker? Is the insulation capacity loss true?


Hi Neni,

Let's answer thickening and thinning first. A heat fit does both. That is the design. The high points of your foot will displace (reposition) material to the low or negative areas. The material does not just get compressed it also gets nudged. This has no negative effect on insulation value. It can have a positive effect in instances where a unusual pressure point has been relieved. The extra room in that region may regain circulation. Circulation equals warmth and comfort. 

As for the optional nature of heat fitting. It is optional (in the sense that no charges will be filed if you don't do it ) but the improvement in fit and performance is notable. The liner remains an unformed, generic sock until it is heat fit.

As for your AT boots, absolutely!


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## kingslay

So what to do if you have no boot fitters around the area you are living?
I would be especially interested in the temperatures for Burton Imprint, infinite Ride liners as well as Adidas Ultralon Liners.
So if anyone has correct temps please let me know!
Thx.


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## F1EA

Good thread. The important stuff has been said already. 

But for completeness purposes......
How many times can you heat-mold an Intuition liner? will the liner/EVA go back to original (or pretty close to) shape, thickness, volume each time you re-heat?


By the way..... Intuition liners are spec'ed for 119 ºC (246 ºF). When I do it at home I go 240ºF, which is close enough; and no toe caps, no moving around and on my thinner board socks. But I do use a small ramp... guess it's not needed.


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## Wiredsport

F1EA said:


> Good thread. The important stuff has been said already.
> 
> But for completeness purposes......
> How many times can you heat-mold an Intuition liner? will the liner/EVA go back to original (or pretty close to) shape, thickness, volume each time you re-heat?
> 
> 
> By the way..... Intuition liners are spec'ed for 119 ºC (246 ºF). When I do it at home I go 240ºF, which is close enough; and no toe caps, no moving around and on my thinner board socks. But I do use a small ramp... guess it's not needed.



Hi F1EA,

You hear a bunch of numbers thrown around. Some say 3 times. Some say 10. Testing on new EVA, I have not hit the limit. In any event, it is safe to say that an unused liner can be heated more times than you will ever need. The liners can also be heat fit after use. But...like all materials, closed cell EVA foam breaks down with use. This process starts immediately. The closed cells degrade and rupture, sweat and dirt work in, and over time the response to the heat fit lessens.

I don't like the ramps because they typically take at least some weight off of the forefoot, which narrows it during the fit process. We want an evenly weighted foot. As a visual, take off your sock and watch your foot morph as you weight it and unweight it in various positions. The shape difference (in forefoot width particularly) is dramatic and can be up to 1 cm (2 width sizes). We want to "capture" your actual weighted width during the heat fit.

STOKED!


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## t21

Ok, i plan to reheat fit my boots again (second time) and this will be done on a ski/board store. my questions are; 

1.How long does it take to heat up the liners up to the proper temp(salomon liner) from the store's heat machine? What is the proper temp for that liner?

2. Once the liner is at temp, remove the liner,insert my _cold_ aftermarket insole(Remind cush), insert foot with my medium size riding sock(does it have to be thin socks? i've been using medium sz.) then slide liner back inside boot,tigthen as you are going riding then stand up for 3 minutes with knees slightly bent. 

3.All this have to be done as quick as possible to keep the heated liner and insole to form with your feet correct? I do not remember how long it took me the first time and not sure if i had my insoles inside when i did it 

Thanks Wired, FWIW, i wear sz.9 wide now from sz.10 normal boots and felt really good,thanks to you:smile:
btw, i've been riding with this boots since feb 2016 i think...


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## Wiredsport

t21 said:


> Ok, i plan to reheat fit my boots again (second time) and this will be done on a ski/board store. my questions are;
> 
> 1.How long does it take to heat up the liners up to the proper temp(salomon liner) from the store's heat machine? What is the proper temp for that liner?
> 
> 2. Once the liner is at temp, remove the liner,insert my _cold_ aftermarket insole(Remind cush), insert foot with my medium size riding sock(does it have to be thin socks? i've been using medium sz.) then slide liner back inside boot,tigthen as you are going riding then stand up for 3 minutes with knees slightly bent.
> 
> 3.All this have to be done as quick as possible to keep the heated liner and insole to form with your feet correct? I do not remember how long it took me the first time and not sure if i had my insoles inside when i did it
> 
> Thanks Wired, FWIW, i wear sz.9 wide now from sz.10 normal boots and felt really good,thanks to you:smile:
> btw, i've been riding with this boots since feb 2016 i think...


Hi t21,

You have it right. The heated liners will be removed from the oven/heater, placed in the outer boot (quick check that they are wrinkle free), then the inserts go in, then the feet go in, then everything gets secured to riding tension (liner draws, laces, BOAs, the whole deal). Then you assume the position and wait. 

As for bake time this will depend on the liner and the heat method that the fitter/shop is using. The best is an adjustable temperature boot fit convention oven. These evenly heat the liner inside and out and have very accurate temp adjustment. That allows full depth EVA molding. If the shop has one of the older fixed temp ovens you may see the fitter give a little extra heat with a blow dryer, etc if he isn't getting the temp he needs at the static setting. There were a lot of branded giveaways that were brand specific temperature wise back in the day. A lot of those are still in use although they need some "help" when it comes to newer multi-density liners and the greater variety of liner temps that now exist. The internal blow warmers are my least favorite as they only warm the inside of the liner and rarely get full depth EVA activation without extra help. You can still get a great fit from these but it takes a little extra work from the fitter. You will very likely see your fitter pinch your liner along the way to assure that he has the "squish" that he is looking for. He may even give them a little sniff.

As for fit times, this depends on the original temp range. That gets to the model specific spec....and i am going to hold my tongue there...


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## t21

Thanks for the reply Wired, i believe our store only has the tube type heating fitting machine and not sure how high the temp it goes up to. So i'll inquire with them later for some info. Thanks again Wired and i hope you had a nice christmas day with your family and friends.


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## f00bar

If I were to do this at home for Burtons would I use the baked potato or popcorn setting?


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## RolandOG

Wiredsport said:


> Hi t21,
> 
> You have it right. The heated liners will be removed from the oven/heater, placed in the outer boot (quick check that they are wrinkle free), then the inserts go in, then the feet go in, then everything gets secured to riding tension (liner draws, laces, BOAs, the whole deal). Then you assume the position and wait.
> 
> As for bake time this will depend on the liner and the heat method that the fitter/shop is using. The best is an adjustable temperature boot fit convention oven. These evenly heat the liner inside and out and have very accurate temp adjustment. That allows full depth EVA molding. If the shop has one of the older fixed temp ovens you may see the fitter give a little extra heat with a blow dryer, etc if he isn't getting the temp he needs at the static setting. There were a lot of branded giveaways that were brand specific temperature wise back in the day. A lot of those are still in use although they need some "help" when it comes to newer multi-density liners and the greater variety of liner temps that now exist. The internal blow warmers are my least favorite as they only warm the inside of the liner and rarely get full depth EVA activation without extra help. You can still get a great fit from these but it takes a little extra work from the fitter. You will very likely see your fitter pinch your liner along the way to assure that he has the "squish" that he is looking for. He may even give them a little sniff.
> 
> As for fit times, this depends on the original temp range. That gets to the model specific spec....and i am going to hold my tongue there...



I wish I had read this thread in more detail before getting my boots heat fit. I went to a dedicated snowboard shop thinking they'd know more about the process than my regular ski shop.

The guy stuck what looked like a two-headed hair dryer into the tops of the boots for 10 minutes, told me to put them on and _walk around for 10 minutes_. I figured he does this all the time so he must know what he's doing. He didn't take the liners out, check how warm they felt, check a temperature, squeeze the foam, etc. Really wish I hadn't missed that point about standing still for 3 minutes.

It wasn't expensive so I'm more pissed off about wasting my time.


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## Wiredsport

RolandOG said:


> I wish I had read this thread in more detail before getting my boots heat fit. I went to a dedicated snowboard shop thinking they'd know more about the process than my regular ski shop.
> 
> The guy stuck what looked like a two-headed hair dryer into the tops of the boots for 10 minutes, told me to put them on and _walk around for 10 minutes_. I figured he does this all the time so he must know what he's doing. He didn't take the liners out, check how warm they felt, check a temperature, squeeze the foam, etc. Really wish I hadn't missed that point about standing still for 3 minutes.
> 
> It wasn't expensive so I'm more pissed off about wasting my time.


Hi Roland,

The upside is that boots can be remolded without issue while new (provided that the max temp for the liner has not been exceeded, which is unlikely). I Would suggest going to another shop and don't hesitate to ask for what you want. We work in a service industry and you are the boss.


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## FGVD

Hey Wiredsport,

I have a couple questions

1. Is there a downside to standing for more than 3 minutes? 
2. How tight should the boots be laced?


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## Wiredsport

FGVD said:


> Hey Wiredsport,
> 
> I have a couple questions
> 
> 1. Is there a downside to standing for more than 3 minutes?
> 2. How tight should the boots be laced?


Boots will have cooled to below molding temperature by 3 minutes. Standing for longer will not hurt or help at all. Boots should be laced to riding tightness.


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## jstar

Hey wired, good thread,

If you have *new unmolded *aftermarket insoles (Footprint Gamechangers), do you heat mold the liners with the unmolded insoles first *and then *heat mold the insoles after?


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## Wiredsport

jstar said:


> Hey wired, good thread,
> 
> If you have *new unmolded *aftermarket insoles (Footprint Gamechangers), do you heat mold the liners with the unmolded insoles first *and then *heat mold the insoles after?


Hi jstar,

That one is buried back here:

http://www.snowboardingforum.com/boots/225057-heat-fit-faq-love-your-feet.html#post2922177


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## WasabiCanuck

Wiredsport said:


> *
> Are there specific things I should request during my heat fit?* Oooh, glad that you asked.
> 
> 
> 
> Professionally done
> Wear the (thin please) snowboarding socks that you will actually ride in (no loaner socks, please)
> Fit with your inserts (footbeds) in the liner
> No toe caps
> Standing, feet at shoulder width
> Flat surface (no ramps or lifts)
> Knees bent slightly
> No motion for 3 minutes
> 
> STOKED!


How bad are the toe caps and ramps while heat molding? I went to the best board/boot shop in town and bought DC Travis Rice boots. They used caps and I had to stand with my toes on a board during heat mold process. They fit fine now, I was just curious why you put that in your OP. Cheers.


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## Wiredsport

WasabiCanuck said:


> How bad are the toe caps and ramps while heat molding? I went to the best board/boot shop in town and bought DC Travis Rice boots. They used caps and I had to stand with my toes on a board during heat mold process. They fit fine now, I was just curious why you put that in your OP. Cheers.


Hi WC,

Toe caps force extra room into the toe box. This can allow foot motion and is actually what we are trying to avoid with a heat fit and fit in general. Toes on a board/ramp forces more weight onto the heels which tends to unnaturally compress the heel area of the liner during molding. We are looking to mold in the most natural riding position possible. I strongly suggest against both of those procedures.


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## WasabiCanuck

Wiredsport said:


> Hi WC,
> 
> Toe caps force extra room into the toe box. This can allow foot motion and is actually what we are trying to avoid with a heat fit and fit in general. Toes on a board/ramp forces more weight onto the heels which tends to unnaturally compress the heel area of the liner during molding. We are looking to mold in the most natural riding position possible. I strongly suggest against both of those procedures.


Ok good to know. Makes sense. Thanks


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## Brian_Blessed

I realise that to even ask this question will be seen as blasphemy to some, but im genuinely curious. I have an engineering and materials background and sometimes leads to me being a cynic when told that certain things must be / must not be done. In this case using proper boot heating equipment.

What difference would it make to just pop new liners in a kitchen oven set to the correct temperature, long enough for the entire liner to heat through to the set point then follow the rest of the guidlines above? Surely the same outcome? If its the temperature accuracy thats the issue then surely a second oven thermometer could be placed inside to verify?


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## Deacon

Brian_Blessed said:


> I realise that to even ask this question will be seen as blasphemy to some, but im genuinely curious. I have an engineering and materials background and sometimes leads to me being a cynic when told that certain things must be / must not be done. In this case using proper boot heating equipment.
> 
> What difference would it make to just pop new liners in a kitchen oven set to the correct temperature, long enough for the entire liner to heat through to the set point then follow the rest of the guidlines above? Surely the same outcome? If its the temperature accuracy thats the issue then surely a second oven thermometer could be placed inside to verify?


Accuracy is exactly the problem. The lower temp the oven is set for, the harder time the oven has holding the temp. Gas ovens will be much better than electric though. 

The second temp probe will help you verify and calibrate your oven temps, but obviously will do nothing to control it, so I'd thoroughly test it prior to putting your liners in.


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## Brian_Blessed

Deacon said:


> Accuracy is exactly the problem. The lower temp the oven is set for, the harder time the oven has holding the temp. Gas ovens will be much better than electric though.
> 
> The second temp probe will help you verify and calibrate your oven temps, but obviously will do nothing to control it, so I'd thoroughly test it prior to putting your liners in.


Im thinking an electric fan oven. I have no knowledge of the accuracy and consistency of household ovens but presuming +/-5oC in both cases. The feeling is that its feasible at least though? Presumably the entire liner can take the high temps required without damage?


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## Deacon

I'm sure the fans will help. But I've no idea HOW inaccurate the ovens are. I guess I really don't for sure that they in fact ARE. I've only heard that they are, but have never had reason to verify.


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## Fielding

I heart ?? toe caps. Without them I'd never be able to fit a size 9.5 wif my big feets. I've lived through about a dozen heat molds and done it / had it done all sorts of different ways. Actually had a brand new pair of Intuition Power Wraps fitted at shop yesterday. Toe caps. Boots felt seriously money today. Serious performance upgrade took my riding up a notch instantly. All the bitches on the mountain were like "damn."


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## Fielding

Brian_Blessed said:


> I realise that to even ask this question will be seen as blasphemy to some, but im genuinely curious. I have an engineering and materials background and sometimes leads to me being a cynic when told that certain things must be / must not be done. In this case using proper boot heating equipment.
> 
> What difference would it make to just pop new liners in a kitchen oven set to the correct temperature, long enough for the entire liner to heat through to the set point then follow the rest of the guidlines above? Surely the same outcome? If its the temperature accuracy thats the issue then surely a second oven thermometer could be placed inside to verify?


Most home ovens have a pretty wide swing above and below set temp. It'd be real easy to go over the max for the liner and wreck the shit out of it before the thermostat killed the heating element. Here's a way to outsmart it. put a couple pots of h20 (covered) and some cast iron cookware in there. And your pizza stone. Get the oven up to desired temp confirm using a remote thermometer and then kill the oven. Add liners a minute later. Be quick when you open and close the door. The stuff in the oven will help oven hold temp longer than it would on its own. So this way you guarantee you won't over cook the liners. Don't forget the dry rub.


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## Brian_Blessed

Fielding said:


> Most home ovens have a pretty wide swing above and below set temp. It'd be real easy to go over the max for the liner and wreck the shit out of it before the thermostat killed the heating element. Here's a way to outsmart it. put a couple pots of h20 (covered) and some cast iron cookware in there. And your pizza stone. Get the oven up to desired temp confirm using a remote thermometer and then kill the oven. Add liners a minute later. Be quick when you open and close the door. The stuff in the oven will help oven hold temp longer than it would on its own. So this way you guarantee you won't over cook the liners. Don't forget the dry rub.


Masterchef here i come!

Anyone know the temp and duration for adidas ultralon liners? (From a 2017 tactical boost)


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## Wiredsport

Brian_Blessed said:


> I realise that to even ask this question will be seen as blasphemy to some, but im genuinely curious. I have an engineering and materials background and sometimes leads to me being a cynic when told that certain things must be / must not be done. In this case using proper boot heating equipment.


Hi Brian,

Stoked for the question. To clarify, our suggestion was not a _must be / must not be_. I have pasted it below.

*Is it possible to heat fit at home?* _Yes, and it is even suggested by some manufacturers. I would urge you, however, not to do this. We have seen more rice-bag, hair dryer and oven burned liners than I would care to recall. I have nightmares of screaming feet, hardened liners and angry riders that had no idea of the foot misery they were inadvertently causing. _

That out of the way, boot fitting ovens are small convection ovens (just larger than the liners) with high airflow. This allows strong, constant airflow inside the boot which is critical to heating the inside of the liner. Non-convection ovens, large convection ovens or convection ovens with low fan speed (or set to an inadequate fan speed, variable fan speed) can/will do a poor job of heating the inside of the liner. The correct temperature is of course imperative (inside and out). This means you need both to know that temperature and be able to trust that your oven is providing that temperature inside and out.

I am all for good DIY project when you can expect a good result and where savings are involved but a heat fit is typically $10-$20 bucks and the downside of a blown home job is a boot throwaway (liners at least).


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## Brian_Blessed

Wiredsport said:


> Hi Brian,
> 
> Stoked for the question. To clarify, our suggestion was not a _must be / must not be_. I have pasted it below.
> 
> *Is it possible to heat fit at home?* _Yes, and it is even suggested by some manufacturers. I would urge you, however, not to do this. We have seen more rice-bag, hair dryer and oven burned liners than I would care to recall. I have nightmares of screaming feet, hardened liners and angry riders that had no idea of the foot misery they were inadvertently causing. _
> 
> That out of the way, boot fitting ovens are small convection ovens (just larger than the liners) with high airflow. This allows strong, constant airflow inside the boot which is critical to heating the inside of the liner. Non-convection ovens, large convection ovens or convection ovens with low fan speed (or set to an inadequate fan speed, variable fan speed) can/will do a poor job of heating the inside of the liner. The correct temperature is of course imperative (inside and out). This means you need both to know that temperature and be able to trust that your oven is providing that temperature inside and out.
> 
> I am all for good DIY project when you can expect a good result and where savings are involved but a heat fit is typically $10-$20 bucks and the downside of a blown home job is a boot throwaway (liners at least).


Thanks for the extra info. My motivation isnt really about saving money, its that my nearest snowboard shop is a 2hr round trip in the car. Plus time there etc. And additionally, i dont know what equipment or expertise they have. There would be a huge amount of convenience doing it at home. Though im completely on board about it needing to give the right end result.

I saw on another thread someone claiming that 10mins in a fan oven set to 80degC gave excellent results on adidas ultralon liners. Its this the temperature range we would be looking at? Obviously id want to do far more homework than just believe a randon thread i found though!

My thoughts on avoiding some of the pitfalls would be to verify the oven temperature and stability, test with old liners and check internal and external temps on those first. Id need a reliable target temp and duration though. The thread i referred to mentioned that adidas were not very forthcoming and just said "take them to a shop".


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## Wiredsport

Brian_Blessed said:


> The thread i referred to mentioned that adidas were not very forthcoming and just said "take them to a shop".


That is the norm for manufacturers. By in large they are aware that if they give a temperature range, customers at home will set their home ovens to a temp in that range and go about their home fit. This goes very wrong very often. When things do go badly they (manufacturers) will often get a return/replacement request. Most do not share their liner temp range with customers. I do understand your reasons to want to home fit but we stopped giving advice on that a decent while ago. We realized that although our intention was good we were contributing to the problem.


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## BuckarooBanzai

I'll be honest. As a new snowboarder who just bought his first setup... it seems like you have a far higher chance to fk up your liners by going to a shop that may/may not know what they are doing or trying at home...than simply not doing it at all?

It seems a LOT of riders simply wear/ride them in. Is it the 100% ideal? No... but it's not like you are risking making things bad/unrideable. I'd rather be comfortable and sacrifice 10% of potential performance gains versus messing the boots up.

It's too bad manufacturers aren't taking steps to promote certain shops that are "approved" - that get training and the proper equipment. The shops may have to pay more to get certified and buy the equipment, but I'm sure they would make out in the long run by pulling in more newcomers, etc.


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## BuckarooBanzai

To be clear, I'm not saying I think heat molding shouldn't be done... it's the opposite... I'd do mine in a heartbeat if I absolutely knew the shop had the right equipment and really knew what they were doing. It seems like such a damn crapshoot when you risk forming them wrong or messing things up.

I have a feeling this is less of an issue for those that have access to shops around major ski areas.


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## Wiredsport

BuckarooBanzai said:


> To be clear, I'm not saying I think heat molding shouldn't be done... it's the opposite... I'd do mine in a heartbeat if I absolutely knew the shop had the right equipment and really knew what they were doing. It seems like such a damn crapshoot when you risk forming them wrong or messing things up.
> 
> I have a feeling this is less of an issue for those that have access to shops around major ski areas.


Hi Buckaroo,

Shops will use the correct equipment and all but a few will either know the liner specific temp range or set on the very conservative side. You are at near zero risk of liner damage using a pro shop and the shop is on the line if they do damage. Not getting a heat fit is not advised. Break in by riding is not a substitution for heat fit. The improvement provided by a good heat fit on a correctly sized boot is not subtle. As a new rider, the best thing you can do is be sure that you are riding a boot in your Mondopoint size. A heat fit in your Mondo size will have a significant positive impact. On a boot that is too large (common new rider issue) a heat fit will do much less.


----------



## jstar

The local specialty shops and specific boot fitter places around here all use boards/ramps during the heat mold process, and give other recommendations as well which are contrary to some of he suggestions posted here. I should add that these are extremely reputable businesses. 

Not saying it's right one way or the other, but obviously there are variations to the process that professional bootfitters feel will produce proper results.


----------



## Wiredsport

jstar said:


> The local specialty shops and specific boot fitter places around here all use boards/ramps during the heat mold process, and give other recommendations as well which are contrary to some of he suggestions posted here. I should add that these are extremely reputable businesses.


Yes, you will see variation in the fit process. If you are at a shop that suggests toe caps or ramps, I would suggest that you ask why they suggest that. Both will force extra room into the boot. They do both give extra immediate wiggle room on day one. This makes riders smile right after the fit process but it is the opposite of what we are looking for. The true value of heat molding is crating an exact negative of the foot. Adding extra room largely defeats this purpose.

STOKED!


----------



## SlvrDragon50

Wiredsport,

How do you find boot fitters? Is it safe to assume all shops will have one? 

I am planning to go to the Burton Flagship store in Chicago and see if they have a boot fitter.


----------



## Wiredsport

SlvrDragon50 said:


> Wiredsport,
> 
> How do you find boot fitters? Is it safe to assume all shops will have one?
> 
> I am planning to go to the Burton Flagship store in Chicago and see if they have a boot fitter.


I would suggest that you search for snowboard shops in the area and contact them about the services that they offer.


----------



## Deacon

Wiredsport said:


> I would suggest that you search for snowboard shops in the area and contact them about the services that they offer.


Fwiw, in the Midwest, this is not that simple. Most boot shops will heat mold, but i know more about fitting (from personal experience, you, and wrath on this thread) than the ones I've spoken to.


----------



## SlvrDragon50

Deacon said:


> Fwiw, in the Midwest, this is not that simple. Most boot shops will heat mold, but i know more about fitting (from personal experience, you, and wrath on this thread) than the ones I've spoken to.


Yea, that's the unfortunate thing about being here in central Illinois. I'm closer to snow than I was in Florida, but far enough that no one really snowboards.. how often is a fitting really needed over just molding though?


----------



## Wiredsport

SlvrDragon50 said:


> Yea, that's the unfortunate thing about being here in central Illinois. I'm closer to snow than I was in Florida, but far enough that no one really snowboards.. how often is a fitting really needed over just molding though?


Which snowboard specific shops have you contacted? Illinois has many great shops.


----------



## SlvrDragon50

Wiredsport said:


> Which snowboard specific shops have you contacted? Illinois has many great shops.


I haven't contacted any. I am about to call Burton's store in Chicago. I'm 2.5 hours south of Chicago so I'm pretty far from everything. Bloomington is probably the closest large city.


----------



## snowman55

Wiredsport said:


> Yes, you will see variation in the fit process. If you are at a shop that suggests toe caps or ramps, I would suggest that you ask why they suggest that. Both will force extra room into the boot. They do both give extra immediate wiggle room on day one. This makes riders smile right after the fit process but it is the opposite of what we are looking for. The true value of heat molding is crating an exact negative of the foot. Adding extra room largely defeats this purpose.
> 
> STOKED!


Will it be OK or even better standing on your board in the bindings without strapping in? Especially if your bindings have canting. 

I'm thinking, since that's the angle your feet will be in when riding, the molding will be more true to the shape of the feet when you're strapped in and riding.

Thanks.


----------



## Wiredsport

snowman55 said:


> Will it be OK or even better standing on your board in the bindings without strapping in? Especially if your bindings have canting.
> 
> I'm thinking, since that's the angle your feet will be in when riding, the molding will be more true to the shape of the feet when you're strapped in and riding.
> 
> Thanks.


Hi Snow,

I would not suggest that. You will not want to overweight any one area (heels, sides, toes). Evenly distributed weight with a slight bend to the knees is ideal.


----------



## Victor

Toe caps during heat moulding process? I wanted to challenge the idea that you should not use for caps during heat moulding. I am an avid trail runner and I have a general interest in the anatomy of the foot and how it applies to foot strike during activity. It is my understanding that when force is applied to the balls of the feet or forefoot, the toes will naturally spread or splay slightly to provide additional balance and support to the foot. I would argue that the use of the toe cap during moulding will give the toes the small additional space to allow this natural process to happen. I did read here that the feeling is this space will inevitably lead to improper fit or foot movement but I would say, if the moulding was done properly, the ankle, top of the foot and heel hold will provide sufficient support to not allow the foot to move within the boot.


----------



## tanscrazydaisy

SlvrDragon50 said:


> Wiredsport,
> 
> How do you find boot fitters? Is it safe to assume all shops will have one?
> 
> I am planning to go to the Burton Flagship store in Chicago and see if they have a boot fitter.


I would try www.bootfitters.com those shops have formal training on boot fitting

There is www.vikingskishop.com in chicago
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


----------



## Fiddsy

Wiredsport said:


> F1EA said:
> 
> 
> 
> Good thread. The important stuff has been said already.
> 
> But for completeness purposes......
> How many times can you heat-mold an Intuition liner? will the liner/EVA go back to original (or pretty close to) shape, thickness, volume each time you re-heat?
> 
> 
> By the way..... Intuition liners are spec'ed for 119 ºC (246 ºF). When I do it at home I go 240ºF, which is close enough; and no toe caps, no moving around and on my thinner board socks. But I do use a small ramp... guess it's not needed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hi F1EA,
> 
> You hear a bunch of numbers thrown around. Some say 3 times. Some say 10. Testing on new EVA, I have not hit the limit. In any event, it is safe to say that an unused liner can be heated more times than you will ever need. The liners can also be heat fit after use. But...like all materials, closed cell EVA foam breaks down with use. This process starts immediately. The closed cells degrade and rupture, sweat and dirt work in, and over time the response to the heat fit lessens.
> 
> I don't like the ramps because they typically take at least some weight off of the forefoot, which narrows it during the fit process. We want an evenly weighted foot. As a visual, take off your sock and watch your foot morph as you weight it and unweight it in various positions. The shape difference (in forefoot width particularly) is dramatic and can be up to 1 cm (2 width sizes). We want to "capture" your actual weighted width during the heat fit.
> 
> STOKED!
Click to expand...

Hi wiredsport,

I was wondering if heat moulding multiple times on new boots gives a better result or once will be enough?


----------



## Wiredsport

Victor said:


> Toe caps during heat moulding process? I wanted to challenge the idea that you should not use for caps during heat moulding. I am an avid trail runner and I have a general interest in the anatomy of the foot and how it applies to foot strike during activity. It is my understanding that when force is applied to the balls of the feet or forefoot, the toes will naturally spread or splay slightly to provide additional balance and support to the foot. I would argue that the use of the toe cap during moulding will give the toes the small additional space to allow this natural process to happen. I did read here that the feeling is this space will inevitably lead to improper fit or foot movement but I would say, if the moulding was done properly, the ankle, top of the foot and heel hold will provide sufficient support to not allow the foot to move within the boot.


Hi Victor,

Snowboard boots are very different from other footwear. They are designed with a thick, compliant, EVA liner that surrounds the foot. This does not exist in running shoes (for instance). In a properly sized boot, no additional space is required (or advantageous) for foot movement. Building in extra room at the end of the boot works against an optimal fit.


----------



## Wiredsport

Fiddsy said:


> Hi wiredsport,
> 
> I was wondering if heat moulding multiple times on new boots gives a better result or once will be enough?


A secondary fit will not improve results unless the initial fit was inadequate. When you reheat a liner it will lose the shape of the original fit so you will essentially be starting the process again with an unformed liner. In some instances a problem area can be addressed in a second selective fit. This involves reheating a targeted area on the liner.

STOKED!


----------



## basser

Wasn't sure what thread to post this in, but I think this one is good.

I've heard when you're trying on boots, to wear the thinnest socks you can find (even if they are not snowboarding). As I was reading this thread it says that when you are getting the heat fit you should wear the socks that you will be wearing snowboarding. So does this mean when you're trying boots on, you should use a thin sock so that your foot has a better chance of fitting, but when you get heat fit, switch to snowboarding socks?

Also, what happens if you rotate socks when you board? should you use the thinnest ones for the heat fit?


----------



## Wiredsport

basser said:


> Wasn't sure what thread to post this in, but I think this one is good.
> 
> I've heard when you're trying on boots, to wear the thinnest socks you can find (even if they are not snowboarding). As I was reading this thread it says that when you are getting the heat fit you should wear the socks that you will be wearing snowboarding. So does this mean when you're trying boots on, you should use a thin sock so that your foot has a better chance of fitting, but when you get heat fit, switch to snowboarding socks?
> 
> Also, what happens if you rotate socks when you board? should you use the thinnest ones for the heat fit?


Hi Basser,

It is best to size, heat fit, and ride in the same sock. We suggest thin snowboarding socks for all three. Changing sock styles can change the overall volume that you are putting into the boot significantly. This can have a big impact on fit. If you can get a few pair of the same sock model to rotate, that is best.


----------



## Fiddsy

Wiredsport said:


> basser said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wasn't sure what thread to post this in, but I think this one is good.
> 
> I've heard when you're trying on boots, to wear the thinnest socks you can find (even if they are not snowboarding). As I was reading this thread it says that when you are getting the heat fit you should wear the socks that you will be wearing snowboarding. So does this mean when you're trying boots on, you should use a thin sock so that your foot has a better chance of fitting, but when you get heat fit, switch to snowboarding socks?
> 
> Also, what happens if you rotate socks when you board? should you use the thinnest ones for the heat fit?
> 
> 
> 
> Hi Basser,
> 
> It is best to size, heat fit, and ride in the same sock. We suggest thin snowboarding socks for all three. Changing sock styles can change the overall volume that you are putting into the boot significantly. This can have a big impact on fit. If you can get a few pair of the same sock model to rotate, that is best.
Click to expand...

Hi again wiredsport, thanks for your above reply btw.
I see theres already a post on socks but do you have recommendations on awesome socks?
I see icebreaker, smartwool and darn tough seem to come up a lot..
I was previously boarding with reasonably medium to thick merino wool socks and my old boots were way to big, I've dropped a size and a half, I'm thinking i need myself a few new pairs of thin socks to rotate!

Thanks


----------



## Victor

Thanks wiredsport. How thick is the average toecap for the heat mould process? I've not had one done yet and I'm genuinely curious. While I agree snowboard boots are built very different from a running shoe, the foot is still subject to tremendous impact force especially in a sport like snowboarding. If the foot, or more appropriate, the toes are restricted then I feel like you may be sacrificing some of the foots natural impact reduction mechanism however minimal that may be.


----------



## Wiredsport

Hi Victor,

Fitters use everything from cut off sock toes to formed rubber caps of various thicknesses. There is no standard. The issue is that they all are intended to create extra room in the toe area. That is exactly what we are looking to avoid. If that room is there, as the boot breaks in, your foot will find it. This creates slop and motion in the boot. This occurs as a persistent bumping throughout the day. It is in no way limited to the even expansion that you have described. The liner itself is entirely sufficient to allow for foot expansion and contraction from normal weighting and big impacts.


----------



## Wiredsport

Fiddsy said:


> Hi again wiredsport, thanks for your above reply btw.
> I see theres already a post on socks but do you have recommendations on awesome socks?
> I see icebreaker, smartwool and darn tough seem to come up a lot..
> I was previously boarding with reasonably medium to thick merino wool socks and my old boots were way to big, I've dropped a size and a half, I'm thinking i need myself a few new pairs of thin socks to rotate!
> 
> Thanks


All 3 of those (and others) have options that will work very well. I go for the lightest (sometimes called light or ultralight depending on brand) snowboard (snowsport) sock that they offer. 

STOKED!


----------



## Blake Bohner

Hey Wired,
Got another question for you. I have insoles that have been heat molded to my foot from other boots that I have worn. When I take my new boots to get a heat fit done on them, the process would still be heating up the liner without the sole in, putting the sole back in, and standing still for about 10 minutes right? This won't have any negative effects on the insole?


----------



## Wiredsport

Hi Blake,

3 minutes is fine. You will need to have the inserts in the liners for the molding process. They may partially lose the original mold on the insert depending on the spec of the insert. You can always refit the insert separately later. Frankly, I would not be overly concerned about this. The EVA on heat moldable inserts is so thin that he effect is very subtle.


----------



## N-Y

how much does the liner expand when they get heat molded?

I went to try on boots, size 11 seem fine but it feels I could go with 10.5 if I know the liner can expand and give me a bit more toe room.


----------



## Phedder

N-Y said:


> how much does the liner expand when they get heat molded?
> 
> I went to try on boots, size 11 seem fine but it feels I could go with 10.5 if I know the liner can expand and give me a bit more toe room.


Depends on what the liner's made of. IME, Intuition foam liners found in Ride and K2 boots has a lot more give than imprint liners in Burton boots. If 11 feels fine in store and 10.5 a little snug, then the 10.5 is probably the way to go. Have you done your measurements?


----------



## Wiredsport

N-Y said:


> how much does the liner expand when they get heat molded?
> 
> I went to try on boots, size 11 seem fine but it feels I could go with 10.5 if I know the liner can expand and give me a bit more toe room.


Hi N-Y,

Please post up your barefoot measurements. That is the best spot to start.


----------



## N-Y

Wiredsport said:


> Hi N-Y,
> 
> Please post up your barefoot measurements. That is the best spot to start.


26cm on right foot and slightly over 26cm on left foot...

my Adidas ultra boost are 10.5

nike depending on the shoe 10.5 or 11


----------



## Wiredsport

N-Y said:


> 26cm on right foot and slightly over 26cm on left foot...
> 
> my Adidas ultra boost are 10.5
> 
> nike depending on the shoe 10.5 or 11


Hi N-Y,

26 cm is Mondo 260 which is a US size 8 in snowboard boots. Please post up images of your barefoot length and width measurements for both feet.


----------



## N-Y

Wiredsport said:


> Hi N-Y,
> 
> 26 cm is Mondo 260 which is a US size 8 in snowboard boots. Please post up images of your barefoot length and width measurements for both feet.


I got narrow foot... best I could do while doing this on my own

I also should add, ill be going wither either Burton step on Photon or Ruler

https://imgur.com/a/TOkAo


----------



## Wiredsport

Hi,

I am seeing 27.5 cm on your large foot. Is that correct?


----------



## N-Y

Wiredsport said:


> Hi,
> 
> I am seeing 27.5 cm on your large foot. Is that correct?


one foot seem 27 the other one is 27.5


----------



## Wiredsport

Got it. 27.5 cm is Mondo 275 or size 9.5 in snowboard boots. Either the Photon or Ruler that you mentioned will be correct in size 9.5. As always, you will want to have the heat fit done immediately .


----------



## N-Y

Wiredsport said:


> Got it. 27.5 cm is Mondo 275 or size 9.5 in snowboard boots. Either the Photon or Ruler that you mentioned will be correct in size 9.5. As always, you will want to have the heat fit done immediately .


no way 9.5.... I tried the 10.5 and 11 and both times I can feel my toes touching the end.... ill plan to get them heat molded immediately


----------



## Deacon

N-Y said:


> no way 9.5.... I tried the 10.5 and 11 and both times I can feel my toes touching the end.... ill plan to get them heat molded immediately


A performance fit is not for everybody.


----------



## Wiredsport

N-Y said:


> no way 9.5.... I tried the 10.5 and 11 and both times I can feel my toes touching the end.... ill plan to get them heat molded immediately


Hi N-Y,

Just touching the end is far too large. You are looking for firm pressure into the compliant materials of the liner (both toe and heel). With a narrow foot and a boot that is 1.5 sizes over your Mondo size foot movement/heel lift is unavoidable. This will get significantly more pronounced after pack out. This is a process and it very often takes riders a few seasons an a few pair of boots to get there. Please visit us on the Mondo thread if you want to explore that further.


----------



## Snow Hound

You realise that toes pressed firmly into the the liner is how boots should fit? You also realise that you're telling a professional boot fitter with years of experience that he doesn't know his onions? You're free to do whatever the fuck you like of course as wired offers his considerable knowledge free of charge and without condition. He also never seems to get shitty which makes me wonder if he might actually be a robot. 

Sent from my ONE E1001 using Tapatalk


----------



## Phedder

Snow Hound said:


> He also never seems to get shitty which makes me wonder if he might actually be a robot.


The name _would_ make a lot of sense...


----------



## Fiddsy

Snow Hound said:


> You realise that toes pressed firmly into the the liner is how boots should fit? You also realise that you're telling a professional boot fitter with years of experience that he doesn't know his onions? You're free to do whatever the fuck you like of course as wired offers his considerable knowledge free of charge and without condition. He also never seems to get shitty which makes me wonder if he might actually be a robot.
> 
> Sent from my ONE E1001 using Tapatalk


Well said!
If it wasn't for wiredsport, id have a 3rd pair of boots 2 large.


----------



## N-Y

Fiddsy said:


> Snow Hound said:
> 
> 
> 
> You realise that toes pressed firmly into the the liner is how boots should fit? You also realise that you're telling a professional boot fitter with years of experience that he doesn't know his onions? You're free to do whatever the fuck you like of course as wired offers his considerable knowledge free of charge and without condition. He also never seems to get shitty which makes me wonder if he might actually be a robot.
> 
> Sent from my ONE E1001 using Tapatalk
> 
> 
> 
> Well said!
> If it wasn't for wiredsport, id have a 3rd pair of boots 2 large.
Click to expand...

Just saying from what I?ve tried on, if I go smaller, my feet will curl up... already the 10.5 is pretty tight oh my toes

I?m new to this sport


----------



## Wiredsport

N-Y said:


> Just saying from what I?ve tried on, if I go smaller, my feet will curl up... already the 10.5 is pretty tight oh my toes
> 
> I?m new to this sport


Hi Bro,

This is a very common early buyer reaction to snowboard boots. The fit is significantly different than other footwear and can feel incorrect at first. If you look at 28.5 cm or 29 cm in your image below, those are the foot lengths that all size 10.5 and size 11 snowboard boots are designed to fit. Those sizes will not be correct for you. You are a 270 (size 9) on your smaller foot and a 275 (9.5) on your larger foot. 

I have pasted some fit tips below that might help.










Your boots should be snug!

The most common complaint about boots is that they are too loose, not too tight. The junction between rider and board begins with the boot, as it is in the most direct contact with the rider. When fitting boots, use the following method: A. Slip into the boot. B. Kick your heel back against the ground several times to drive it back into the boot's heel pocket. C. Lace the boot tightly, as though you were going to ride. NOTE: This is where most sizing mistakes are made. A snowboard boot is shaped like an upside down "7". The back has a good degree of forward lean. Thus, when you drop into the boot, your heel may be resting up to an inch away from the back of the boot, and your toes may be jammed into the front of the boot. Until the boot is tightly laced, you will not know if it is a proper fit. D. Your toes should now have firm pressure against the front of the boot. As this is the crux of sizing, let's discuss firm pressure: When you flex your knee forward hard, the pressure should lighten, or cease, as your toes pull back. At no time should you feel numbness or lose circulation. Your toes will be in contact with the end of the boot, unlike in a properly fit street or athletic shoe (snowboard boots are designed to fit more snugly than your other shoes). When you have achieved this combination of firm pressure and no circulation loss, you have found the correct size!


----------



## N-Y

Wiredsport said:


> Hi Bro,
> 
> This is a very common early buyer reaction to snowboard boots. The fit is significantly different than other footwear and can feel incorrect at first. If you look at 28.5 cm or 29 cm in your image below, those are the foot lengths that all size 10.5 and size 11 snowboard boots are designed to fit. Those sizes will not be correct for you. You are a 270 (size 9) on your smaller foot and a 275 (9.5) on your larger foot.
> 
> I have pasted some fit tips below that might help.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your boots should be snug!
> 
> The most common complaint about boots is that they are too loose, not too tight. The junction between rider and board begins with the boot, as it is in the most direct contact with the rider. When fitting boots, use the following method: A. Slip into the boot. B. Kick your heel back against the ground several times to drive it back into the boot's heel pocket. C. Lace the boot tightly, as though you were going to ride. NOTE: This is where most sizing mistakes are made. A snowboard boot is shaped like an upside down "7". The back has a good degree of forward lean. Thus, when you drop into the boot, your heel may be resting up to an inch away from the back of the boot, and your toes may be jammed into the front of the boot. Until the boot is tightly laced, you will not know if it is a proper fit. D. Your toes should now have firm pressure against the front of the boot. As this is the crux of sizing, let's discuss firm pressure: When you flex your knee forward hard, the pressure should lighten, or cease, as your toes pull back. At no time should you feel numbness or lose circulation. Your toes will be in contact with the end of the boot, unlike in a properly fit street or athletic shoe (snowboard boots are designed to fit more snugly than your other shoes). When you have achieved this combination of firm pressure and no circulation loss, you have found the correct size!


I appreciate the tip.... I will use this info when going into the store in few weeks when step on's arrive..... my nike's are size 10.5 or 11 depending on the shoe... Adidas are 10.5... my vans are size 10 lol... im all over the place lol


----------



## Wiredsport

N-Y said:


> my nike's are size 10.5 or 11 depending on the shoe... Adidas are 10.5... my vans are size 10 lol... im all over the place lol


Hi,

Are those (Nike, Adidas, Vans) shoe sizes or snowboard boots?


----------



## N-Y

Wiredsport said:


> Hi,
> 
> Are those (Nike, Adidas, Vans) shoe sizes or snowboard boots?


shoe size.... when I went to the store to try snowboard boots, they brought me a 10.5, thats what it said on the box, again, my toes were really tight, I could feel a lot of pressure on my big toe, especially on left leg


----------



## Wiredsport

N-Y said:


> shoe size.... when I went to the store to try snowboard boots, they brought me a 10.5, thats what it said on the box, again, my toes were really tight, I could feel a lot of pressure on my big toe, especially on left leg


Hi,

Your snowboard boot size will always be smaller than your shoe size. A 27.5 cm foot (Mondo 275) is a size 9.5 in snowboard boots but is a size 10.5 in shoes (Brannock). Please visit here, enter your foot measurements and click the tabs. Snowboard Boot Size, Chart, Calculator, Sizing

Sadly, what you have described does still happen at some snowboard shops.


----------



## N-Y

Wiredsport said:


> Hi,
> 
> Your snowboard boot size will always be smaller than your shoe size. A 27.5 cm foot (Mondo 275) is a size 9.5 in snowboard boots but is a size 10.5 in shoes (Brannock). Please visit here, enter your foot measurements and click the tabs. Snowboard Boot Size, Chart, Calculator, Sizing
> 
> Sadly, what you have described does still happen at some snowboard shops.


what is fascinating me from you've told me, if I ask for a size 9.5, my toes are guaranteed to curl up... I feel like I should call you while im at the store lol


----------



## N-Y

Wiredsport said:


> Hi,
> 
> Your snowboard boot size will always be smaller than your shoe size. A 27.5 cm foot (Mondo 275) is a size 9.5 in snowboard boots but is a size 10.5 in shoes (Brannock). Please visit here, enter your foot measurements and click the tabs. Snowboard Boot Size, Chart, Calculator, Sizing
> 
> Sadly, what you have described does still happen at some snowboard shops.


alright, I took new pics with another person helping me with the measurement.

https://imgur.com/a/fNHhl


----------



## Wiredsport

Hi N-Y,

Please post up photos showing your whole feet and the whole ruler so we can see where you are struggling.


----------



## N-Y

Wiredsport said:


> Hi N-Y,
> 
> Please post up photos showing your whole feet and the whole ruler so we can see where you are struggling.


I tried on the Burton photon size 10.5 yesterday... seems like right fit... I also measured my foot, tell me your thoughts

https://imgur.com/a/6n64W


----------



## Wiredsport

N-Y said:


> I tried on the Burton photon size 10.5 yesterday... seems like right fit... I also measured my foot, tell me your thoughts
> 
> https://imgur.com/a/6n64W


Hi N-Y,

Please post up photos showing your whole feet and the whole ruler so we can see where you are struggling.


----------



## N-Y

Wiredsport said:


> Hi N-Y,
> 
> Please post up photos showing your whole feet and the whole ruler so we can see where you are struggling.


no ruler, the pics I posted today are from those foot measurements units are the sports store.... based on that pic, thoughts as to where my foot ends?


----------



## basser

Is there a big disadvantage to doing your own heat fit? I've heard of the rice method, but I'm a little skeptical, or is it pretty safe?

Also, is there a thread that discusses DIY heat fit?


----------



## Wiredsport

basser said:


> Is there a big disadvantage to doing your own heat fit? I've heard of the rice method, but I'm a little skeptical, or is it pretty safe?
> 
> Also, is there a thread that discusses DIY heat fit?


Hi Basser,

My best advice is pasted below. I hope that helps.

Is it possible to heat fit at home? Yes, and it is even suggested by some manufacturers. I would urge you, however, not to do this. We have seen more rice-bag, hair dryer and oven burned liners than I would care to recall. I have nightmares of screaming feet, hardened liners and angry riders that had no idea of the foot misery they were inadvertently causing.


----------



## N-Y

since I'm new to this sport, I might have misunderstood some things on this thread, so I'm going to ask to make sure I get it right.

Getting my Burton photon step on delivered today.

going to my local sport shop to get my liner heat fitted.

so just so I understand, the liner gets heated, while inside the boot or outside?

also I need to remove the insole before it gets heated correct?

after its heated, re-insert the insole.

insert my foot with my snowboard socks on, tie up the liner and boa system

stand still for about 3 min

did I miss anything? was I wrong with anything?


----------



## N-Y

can anybody help me with what I posted above? lol.... my step on's came in, I want to make sure I follow the proper steps


----------



## Deacon

N-Y said:


> since I'm new to this sport, I might have misunderstood some things on this thread, so I'm going to ask to make sure I get it right.
> 
> Getting my Burton photon step on delivered today.
> 
> going to my local sport shop to get my liner heat fitted.
> 
> so just so I understand, the liner gets heated, while inside the boot or outside?
> 
> also I need to remove the insole before it gets heated correct?
> 
> after its heated, re-insert the insole.
> 
> insert my foot with my snowboard socks on, tie up the liner and boa system
> 
> stand still for about 3 min
> 
> did I miss anything? was I wrong with anything?


Your understanding is more or less correct. Leave your insoles in. Particularly if you have aftermarket. I’ve always stood in a “snowboard stance” while they cool. I want to say I wait like 10 minutes.


----------



## N-Y

Deacon said:


> Your understanding is more or less correct. Leave your insoles in. Particularly if you have aftermarket. I’ve always stood in a “snowboard stance” while they cool. I want to say I wait like 10 minutes.


the step on boots come with a insole in the liner... so that stays inside the liner as it gets heated?


----------



## Deacon

N-Y said:


> the step on boots come with a insole in the liner... so that stays inside the liner as it gets heated?


All boots come with an insole, but they’re usually... not great. Regardless if you use the factory or an aftermarket, it is important you leave it in there. You want the liner to mold to your foot as it will be when you’re on the hill. If you, at some later date, replace the factory with a thicker aftermarket insole, you’ll want to thermomold again.


----------



## N-Y

Deacon said:


> All boots come with an insole, but they’re usually... not great. Regardless if you use the factory or an aftermarket, it is important you leave it in there. You want the liner to mold to your foot as it will be when you’re on the hill. If you, at some later date, replace the factory with a thicker aftermarket insole, you’ll want to thermomold again.


Which insoles would you recommend for snowboard boots? Should I use the ones in my Nike shoes? they have a good amount of cushioning


----------



## Deacon

N-Y said:


> Which insoles would you recommend for snowboard boots? Should I use the ones in my Nike shoes? they have a good amount of cushioning


Remind, Shred Soles and Superfeet are the sport specific ones that come to mind. I wouldn’t reco your shoe insoles. That said many, many people just ride the stock insole. Don’t get stressed about it.


----------



## CelliniKS

To clarify, I think Wired said to heat the liners without the insoles in, then put the insoles in after pulling the liners from the oven. Then put your feet in and stand in a snowboard stance for 3 minutes.


----------



## Maxomoto

Hi Thanks. Another amazing thread - Wiredsports should start a Patreon account to allow us to support his work here! It is amazing to see how incompetent this industry is (at least here in Europe). I have bought at least 10 pairs of snowboard boots in 30 years - in Austria, Germany and France - all in specialized Snowboard shops. Not a single one fitted properly or was heat fitted properly.

My question: 
- There is no decent fitting option available where I live or anywhere near
- It seems the heat fitting procedure is not overly complicated (if one is told how to do it - thanks)
- Modern convection kitche ovens (like the premium range of Miele, in the >5k range) are very acurate (less than 5 degrees +/- even at high temperatures) and I am pretty sure they are technically more advanced than some of the ovens I have seen in Snowboard stores
- as long as temperature is not getting too high, heat molding seems to be a pretty reversable and repeatable thing

So: I would definitely attempt to heat fit my new boots and I have to do it at home. I have a friend with such an oven. I just need:
- specific target temperature for the Burton Imprint 2 Liner
- specific target temperature for the Adidas Silver Level Ultralon Liner

I am aware that some people here are hesitant to give those out. I would still apreciate support. I am aware that I do this on my own risk, that I might destroy the liner and that is totally fine for me. I am more than happy to kill one set of liners in the quest to get to fitting snowboard boot.

Thanks

Max


----------



## mmurphy3333

Wiredsport said:


> Greetings fellow foot lovers. As a die hard supporter of _best-practice boot fitting_ everywhere, I wanted to share some thoughts on the heat fit process.
> 
> *What is a heat moldable liner?* Heat moldable (AKA heat fit, AKA thermofit, AKA thermoform) liners are made primarily of closed cell EVA foam. Different compounds and densities do exist. The temperature range for the given liner's materials is relatively narrow and will vary by the materials that are used. The range may be 20 degrees on one liner type (say, 160 to 180) and 15 degrees on another (say, 180 to 195). The ranges for various liners may or may not overlap.
> 
> *Why is this important?* A professional boot fitter will know the specs of the liner they are working with. The will set their equipment to be centered on that range and the equipment will be accurate enough to hit that temperature consistently across all moldable areas of the liner. There will therefore not be underheated areas that do not mold, and more importantly the liners will not get "overbaked" which can harden, knot, and ruin perfectly good liners.
> 
> *Is it possible to heat fit at home?* Yes, and it is even suggested by some manufacturers. I would urge you, however, not to do this. We have seen more rice-bag, hair dryer and oven burned liners than I would care to recall. I have nightmares of screaming feet, hardened liners and angry riders that had no idea of the foot misery they were inadvertently causing.
> *
> I should ride my boots before doing the heat fit, right?* Mmmmmmmmm. The opposite is actually tue. Heat fit first. A heat fit works best on brand new liners. It should be done immediately.
> 
> *Walking around in my boots helps, right?* Mmmmmmmm. It does nothing good. Our goal is to reposition liner material to the negative areas of the foot. This works best on a brand new liner.
> 
> *Heat fit is optional, right?* For boots that have heat moldable liners (most) it should be considered mandatory. The boot will have a more generic fit than a cheaper non-moldable liner until it is heat fit. There is no good reason not to heat fit.
> *
> Are there specific things I should request during my heat fit?* Oooh, glad that you asked.
> 
> 
> 
> Professionally done
> Wear the (thin please) snowboarding socks that you will actually ride in (no loaner socks, please)
> Fit with your inserts (footbeds) in the liner
> No toe caps
> Standing, feet at shoulder width
> Flat surface (no ramps or lifts)
> Knees bent slightly
> No motion for 3 minutes
> 
> STOKED!


 I have been experiencing some middle toe pain, so I was researching and I found this thread. I have read through the whole thread...amazing information.

Here are my questions:

1. I'm riding K2 Maysis+ for a second season and never got them heat molded. So, can/should I try that? 

2. I live near Baltimore. The closest boot fitter from the bootfitter website is two hours away. Worth the drive?

3. Or, should I deal with it the discomfort for the next month until I get out to Colorado...I'm thinking that boot fitters there will have a lot more experience.

I appreciate all the help from WiredSport and the forum.

-Murph


----------



## Deacon

mmurphy3333 said:


> I have been experiencing some middle toe pain, so I was researching and I found this thread. I have read through the whole thread...amazing information.
> 
> Here are my questions:
> 
> 1. I'm riding K2 Maysis+ for a second season and never got them heat molded. So, can/should I try that?
> 
> 2. I live near Baltimore. The closest boot fitter from the bootfitter website is two hours away. Worth the drive?
> 
> 3. Or, should I deal with it the discomfort for the next month until I get out to Colorado...I'm thinking that boot fitters there will have a lot more experience.
> 
> I appreciate all the help from WiredSport and the forum.
> 
> -Murph


1. yes

2-3. that's up to you, but if you've been riding them for a full season, what's another month? I probably wouldn't...


----------



## Deacon

CelliniKS said:


> To clarify, I think Wired said to heat the liners* without the insoles in, then put the insoles in after pulling the liners from the oven*. Then put your feet in and stand in a snowboard stance for 3 minutes.


Good clarification. :thumbsup:


----------



## shortgal

I have a new pair of 32 STW’s. Just trying them on at home, I’m getting a lot of pressure/pain from the ankle buildup in the liner. Otherwise they fit great, and are the only boots I’ve tried on this season that didn’t give me heel lift. Will heat molding them solve this problem? Or do I just need different boots?


----------



## pikm57

@Wiredsport
Just to make sure. When you take your liners out of the ''oven'', you need to put them back in to the boot's shell or not, before you put your foot in?


----------



## Wiredsport

pikm57 said:


> @Wiredsport
> Just to make sure. When you take your liners out of the ''oven'', you need to put them back in to the boot's shell or not, before you put your foot in?


Hi Pikm,

The person doing your heat fit will quickly get the warmed liner back in the outer before you put your foot in.

STOKED!


----------



## pikm57

So I've found a shop which is specialised in boot fitting. But problem is, that they are working only with ski boots, but I wrote them about my problems and they are willing to heat mold my boots. I assume, that there is not such a difference between ski and snowboard boots, and they will make a good job... But just to make sure, does anyone know time and temperature settings for Burton ruler heat molding? I found an article on a Burton webpage, which says: 15 min and 100 °C or 10 min and 120 °C. Is that correct? And which option is better if any one is?

Regards,
pikm57


----------



## astralz

The people at the Burton store in Boulder "mocked" me for asking to get my boots heat molded before I "broke them in naturally". I'm convinced Burton employees don't know shit about boot fitting lol. EVO seems to have the most knowledgeable staff for "big brand" retailers.


----------



## Donutz

A guy at Showcase in Whistler a year or two back mocked me for wanting a Ski Key because (according to him) snowboards won't fit on those racks. Pointing out that I'd been parking my board on those racks for years didn't make a dent.


----------



## SkA

Wiredsport said:


> When you reheat a liner it will lose the shape of the original fit so you will essentially be starting the process again with an unformed liner.


Sorry, for bringing up this from the ashes. I just wanted to ask if this means the liner (foam) also expands back in places where it previously might have been displaced? Does that happen, to some extent at least, even after the boots were already used or was this meant only before riding the boots? 

Also, I discovered I have more heel lift than I'd like and purchased some velcro attachable j bars from Burton for the boot, to see if it'll help. Would you put those in, if you repeat the heat molding process, or keep them out?


----------



## Wiredsport

Please remind me of your 4 mondo measurements and the boot size that you now have.


----------



## SkA

Wiredsport said:


> Please remind me of your 4 mondo measurements and the boot size that you now have.


When doing it at home, the last time I did it and posted pictures about it I got 254 on my longest, left foot. The right foot was 2 - 3 mm shorter, but I didn't redo that the once I figured out which foot was the longest. Max width was 103.

I had a chance to recheck the values at the local shop, with their measurement machine, prior to heat molding the boots (if you find it interesting):




















The heel lift felt like it's mostly occurring in the slightly shorter right foot, but I think it should still be above 250 in length (because I feel the front of the liner more or less similarly in both feet). Nearly crashed two times, because I hit a uneven terrain (=hard packed bump) while being on my toe edge and the right heel "popped" out, throwing me off balance. One of those moments was basically at the end of the day, by which time I already had the boots tightened up to the point where I don't really think there was much more tightening left, but it felt my heel still jumpy a bit too much.


----------



## Wiredsport

What is the boot size that you purchased?


----------



## SkA

Burton Ion Wide 255 mondo (US 7.5, 40.5 EU).


----------



## Wiredsport

Got it. Het molding (when done correctly) will make the internal liner material ver positionable by pressure. When your foot is placed in the heated liner within the tightly laced boot that pressure will reposition material away from high points and it will expand into low points. Anything that will be in the boot when riding should be in the boot during molding - and nothing more.

STOKED!


----------



## SkA

Thank you!  I was looking at the pictures above and just realized that Salamon device is showing me under 250, which is odd as I never got close to that at home.


----------



## Silatus

Hello,

I understand that heat molding should be done before riding in your boots. Just so happens ive been riding with my boots for 7 days already.

Is heat molding still considered useful or is it already too late to make a noticeable difference? 

Thanks in advance


----------



## Wiredsport

Silatus said:


> Hello,
> 
> I understand that heat molding should be done before riding in your boots. Just so happens ive been riding with my boots for 7 days already.
> 
> Is heat molding still considered useful or is it already too late to make a noticeable difference?
> 
> Thanks in advance


Yes, absolutely.


----------



## SkA

I've got some pretty bad issues that seem to be revolving around what's normally considered as 'instep pain'. I've had the boots heat molded as soon as I purchased them, but then found out as I rode them that my middle/fore/pinky toe go slightly numb after an hour or two of riding. Seems like that was just the tip of the iceberg, so to speak.

Trying to use the boots without tightening down on the lower speed zone laces doesn't work as it seems to be causing intolerable pain in my whole sole (arches included), which I presume is from my foot lifting too much in the boot. It also increases heel lift. So I need to tighten the lower area, even more during the day, otherwise my toe starts jamming into the liner in a painful way (otherwise not an issue in the first hours of riding, even if I keep it more loose).

Which introduces the mentioned 'instep pain', within 2 hours of riding, and a fairly identifiable pressure point on my left (leading) foot. The right (back) foot fairs better, as I was able to adjust my straps to relieve the pressure, but that didn't really work for the other foot (angles are different as well). Anyway, seems like the straps on my bindings are just multiplying the issue, but I've ridden the same binding with my previous (oversized) boots and didn't have any discomfort, so I presume it's more boot than binding related.

I've got some pictures I took right after riding, with rough indications of where the pain is:




















It's not just on the top of the instep, as you see it can go down quite low and on the side as well.

Anyway, I'm going back to my local boot shop to retry the heat molding and I am wondering how to achieve best results - should tighten down the laces or keep them looser (perhaps with the addition of placing some foam on the "hot spots" for the heat molding process)?


----------



## astralz

My current boots are Burton Photon Boa I had heat molded at the store before riding in them.

I just swapped the in-soles to the Remind Medics and was curious if I should get the liner re-heat molded.

I've ridden in the boots 6 times since the initial mold.

Update: Got them re-molded.


----------



## kyebean

Wiredsport, Every bootfitter I've talked to has disagreed with you about not using toe caps. Wouldn't it be better to add a slight amount of extra space to allow the toes to splay naturally under force? Or could this be achieved just by doing that motion while molding?

I'm planning to try Plug and/or Plug Race Intuition liners for Burton Ions:

I was told wrap liners have "more progressive flex" than tongue liners. Could you describe that more specifically and why I would want it?

I saw the following in an article describing benefits of tongue liners over wrap:

More evenly distributed cuff pressure.
Easier to refine due to design and tuneability.
Better energy transmission to ski edge due to better fit.
More fitting options then even the overlaps.
Do you agree with those statements?

I was told the even cuff of wrap liners suit snowboard boots better. However, it seems to me that the "scoop outs" on the sides of tongue liners would offer extra mobility side to side that would benefit ollieing and buttering?

Intuition says "For a more aggressive mold" heat liners at the high range of recommended time. Could you describe "aggressive", is there a downside to more aggressive for the initial fitting?

Do you have any suggestions for selling liners that have been molded and briefly tried?

Is Intuition heat machine better for their liners than other heat stacks?


----------



## Wiredsport

Hi Kyebean,
You will want to avoid toe caps during heat fit. These guidelines are critical. Creating extra room around your toes is the opposite of what you want in a good heat fit. Unfortunately all liners will stretch about 1 full shoe size over the first few weeks of riding. That is not desirable but it is unavoidable. What is the reason for seeking aftermarket liners? Are you trying to solve a specific problem?

STOKED!


No toe caps
Standing, feet at shoulder width
Flat surface (no ramps or lifts)
Knees bent slightly
No motion for 3 minutes


----------



## kyebean

Wiredsport said:


> What is the reason for seeking aftermarket liners? Are you trying to solve a specific problem?


Increased molding ability, density, and stiffness


----------



## Wiredsport

Hi, 

Boots are designed as a compound product. The most important factor for a liner is that it works in conjunction with the boot outer and system. This is often not the case for aftermarket liners. Unless there is a significant foot/fit issue, I would always suggest considering a different boot model over an aftermarket liner.

STOKED!


----------



## kyebean

Have you ever ridden a dense Intuition? I'm pretty sure there isn't a single boot on the market that comes with foam like that. It molds and holds shape way better. The outside of the liner molds very well to the boot outer and Intuition carries tons of models, sizes and 3 different volumes. If that's still not good enough, there's all kinds of boot fitting pads to customize further. 


Wiredsport said:


> works in conjunction with the boot outer and system.


As long as the Intuition fits and molds to the outer boot well, what would be missing?


----------



## Wiredsport

kyebean said:


> Have you ever ridden a dense Intuition? I'm pretty sure there isn't a single boot on the market that comes with foam like that. It molds and holds shape way better. The outside of the liner molds very well to the boot outer and Intuition carries tons of models, sizes and 3 different volumes. If that's still not good enough, there's all kinds of boot fitting pads to customize further.
> 
> 
> As long as the Intuition fits and molds to the outer boot well, what would be missing?


Hi,

Just as often as not, aftermarket liners take boots in the wrong direction. You sound like you want to try it, but prepare for experimentation and unexpected results. A lot of thought and testing goes into a pair of boots. 

STOKED!


----------



## kyebean

Wiredsport said:


> Just as often as not, aftermarket liners take boots in the wrong direction. You sound like you want to try it, but prepare for experimentation and unexpected results. A lot of thought and testing goes into a pair of boots.


I tried it for about 30 days, often riding 13 hours straight without stopping. It's a game changer. I recommend that you try riding a dense Intuition. Profit and retail appeal take very high priority for boot makers. Dense Intuition liners have patented foam, cost $200, are difficult to sell and require significant skill to set up properly. I can see why they wouldn't be profitable for boot makers. In the same vein, I've never seen a boot that wouldn't benefit from an aftermarket insole, have you?

In my last post I made some very specific points and questions. You seem more experienced than me, so I'd be interested to hear more detailed reasons behind your skepticism.


----------



## Wiredsport

Hi Kybean,

You bet,

Snowboard boot liners are not simply a moldable wrapper. They are a well considered combination of flex zones, moldable materials, stitched panels and at times stiffeners and cinch mechanisms. all of this has been designed and tested to work with the associated flex zones and properties of their dedicated outer boot and cinch mechanisms. By nature, aftermarket products need to work with a variety of outers and are tailored to none. In many instances they work poorly. 

Hope that helps!

STOKED!


----------



## kyebean

Could you give a more specific example of a properly fit and selected Intuition liner working poorly? 

In my experience, Burton's best liners are inferior to Intuition in Burton's boots. Many of the best OEM liners are clearly designed and specified by manufacturers to be interchangeable between different outer models.


----------



## Wiredsport

kyebean said:


> Could you give a more specific example of a properly fit and selected Intuition liner working poorly?
> 
> In my experience, Burton's best liners are inferior to Intuition in Burton's boots. Many of the best OEM liners are clearly designed and specified by manufacturers to be interchangeable between different outer models.


Hi Kyebean,

You touched on another problem. Properly fit. I disagree with almost all of the fit methods and molding suggestions on the Intuition site, so properly fit is an issue. That is OK. We live in a world of many opinions. You asked for mine originally, so I am giving it, but it sounds like you have already been using Intuition, and are pleased. If that is the case, then I am stoked for you.

Back to fit. Intuition's site suggests using a shell fit. If you have read my posts you know that I disagree. That was an old ski boot thing, and it does not apply well to snowboard boots, particularly across multiple brands and designs. Intuition is also a proponent of home fit, which I am also strongly against, as you have read here (I hope). Lastly the quote below. This kind of instruction is unusable to obtain a correct fit. It is vague and leads to buying a comfort fit. Measuring and buying by Mondopoint is always our suggestion and will eliminate the desire for aftermarket liners in almost all instances. As earlier, "Not too tight, not too sloppy!" is wholly inadequate. We provide detailed instructions for correct sizing here: 



 and 



 . 

From the Intuition site:

*HOME FITTING INSTRUCTIONS*
*PLEASE READ INSTRUCTIONS FULLY BEFORE YOU START THE FITTING PROCESS!*
*IMPORTANT:*
Before molding, try both liners on in your boots with any foot beds/orthotics you intend to use, to ensure they fit your boots and feet properly. Not too tight, not too sloppy!
*** DO NOT MOLD IF THE LINERS DON’T FIT! ***

Lastly, yes. We work with riders every day who are searching for better. Aftermarket liners make up a niche portion of the market but over the years we have helped a lot of riders who have ridden these products, Intuition included, and are seeking advice on how they may get a better fit. Most snowboard boot mistakes start with incorrect sizing. Some occur from poor heat fit as well. Others come from trying to rework a poorly sized boot. Sometimes the boot itself if the issue.

I hope that this thoroughly answers each of your questions.

STOKED!


----------



## kyebean

Really appreciate you taking the time to talk it through with me

I'm definitely not defending the quality of Intuition's instructions. I would only rely on one of those rare bootfitters who is a true master, for the fitting process. Keep in mind that best practices for snowboard boots with low density liners may differ for dense liners, ski boots, racing, watersports, rollerblading, and hiking.


----------



## grumpiebk

Wiredsport said:


> We provide detailed instructions for correct sizing here:
> 
> 
> 
> and
> 
> 
> 
> .


@Wiredsport thanks for these links, very helpful! I am stumbling across your content because I've done it backwards - bought boots and now questioning if they are the right fit before molding and riding. I am a size 12-12.5 regular sneaker and my barefoot measurements are 11.5" L x 4.375" W. I purchased Burton Photon BOA boots in size 12 (CM30) and they are VERY tight in the toe area on my larger foot (11.5" long versus other foot 11.25" long which fits snug). It feels like a standard shoe whould feel a half a size too small where I need to curl/bend the toes a bit. However, the boot sizer suggests I should be even a half size smaller at 11.5 or 29CM. Some questions: 


Will the heat molding free up enough space in the toe area to have a good fit? Will it actually make them too big?
I often have pressure pain on the inside ankle bones when riding (and even walking in these new boots). Will the heat molding help with this?
My width (4.375") is in between the measurements of D and E. Should I stick with regular or opt for wide? They sell these boots in wide.
Any other pointers before I make a final decision on my $400 investment?

Thanks for the help!


----------



## Wiredsport

grumpiebk said:


> @Wiredsport thanks for these links, very helpful! I am stumbling across your content because I've done it backwards - bought boots and now questioning if they are the right fit before molding and riding. I am a size 12-12.5 regular sneaker and my barefoot measurements are 11.5" L x 4.375" W. I purchased Burton Photon BOA boots in size 12 (CM30) and they are VERY tight in the toe area on my larger foot (11.5" long versus other foot 11.25" long which fits snug). It feels like a standard shoe whould feel a half a size too small where I need to curl/bend the toes a bit. However, the boot sizer suggests I should be even a half size smaller at 11.5 or 29CM. Some questions:
> 
> 
> Will the heat molding free up enough space in the toe area to have a good fit? Will it actually make them too big?
> I often have pressure pain on the inside ankle bones when riding (and even walking in these new boots). Will the heat molding help with this?
> My width (4.375") is in between the measurements of D and E. Should I stick with regular or opt for wide? They sell these boots in wide.
> Any other pointers before I make a final decision on my $400 investment?
> 
> Thanks for the help!


Hi,

11.5 inches (29.21 cm) is at the low side of the measurement range for Mondopoint 295 or size 11.5 US in snowboard boots. You are at the high side of the measurement range for E width however, which requires a very specific Wide boot. I would strongly suggest the Salomon Dialogue Wide or Salomon Synapse Wide in Mondo 295.

If the assistance provided has been helpful to you, your positive reviews on either of the sites below (or both) would be greatly appreciated. STOKED!











Wiredsport Consumer Verified Ratings & Reviews


Find the best stores, Read Real Customer Ratings and Write Reviews




www.resellerratings.com













Wiredsport is rated "Average" with 3.7 / 5 on Trustpilot


Do you agree with Wiredsport's TrustScore? Voice your opinion today and hear what 45 customers have already said.




www.trustpilot.com


----------



## grumpiebk

Wiredsport said:


> Hi,
> 
> 11.5 inches (29.21 cm) is at the low side of the measurement range for Mondopoint 295 or size 11.5 US in snowboard boots. You are at the high side of the measurement range for E width however, which requires a very specific Wide boot. I would strongly suggest the Salomon Dialogue Wide or Salomon Synapse Wide in Mondo 295.
> 
> If the assistance provided has been helpful to you, your positive reviews on either of the sites below (or both) would be greatly appreciated. STOKED!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wiredsport Consumer Verified Ratings & Reviews
> 
> 
> Find the best stores, Read Real Customer Ratings and Write Reviews
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.resellerratings.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wiredsport is rated "Average" with 3.7 / 5 on Trustpilot
> 
> 
> Do you agree with Wiredsport's TrustScore? Voice your opinion today and hear what 45 customers have already said.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.trustpilot.com


Thanks for the quick response. So if I wanted to stick with the Burton's I should be looking at an 11.5 wide? I am currently likely oversized length and undersized width at 12.0 regular?


----------



## grumpiebk

Wiredsport said:


> Hi,
> 
> 11.5 inches (29.21 cm) is at the low side of the measurement range for Mondopoint 295 or size 11.5 US in snowboard boots. You are at the high side of the measurement range for E width however, which requires a very specific Wide boot. I would strongly suggest the Salomon Dialogue Wide or Salomon Synapse Wide in Mondo 295.
> 
> If the assistance provided has been helpful to you, your positive reviews on either of the sites below (or both) would be greatly appreciated. STOKED!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wiredsport Consumer Verified Ratings & Reviews
> 
> 
> Find the best stores, Read Real Customer Ratings and Write Reviews
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.resellerratings.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wiredsport is rated "Average" with 3.7 / 5 on Trustpilot
> 
> 
> Do you agree with Wiredsport's TrustScore? Voice your opinion today and hear what 45 customers have already said.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.trustpilot.com


And will the heat mold address the inside ankle bone issues Ive been experiencing?


----------



## Wiredsport

No, Burton does not make a boot for you. Burton produces their Wide boots at EEE width which you do not want. Only Salomon produces any boots for E width. We doo not suggest the Photon at all any more. There are way too many discomfort issues with that model.


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## Dmaynard

Wiredsport said:


> Only Salomon produces any boots for E width.


I just picked up a pair of NOS 2007 Salomon F22s in 8.5 because I'm basically broke as a joke and just coming back to boarding after many years away. There is no indication of width that I can tell, but they feel very tight on my outstep (whatever that part of the foot is) to the point of uncomfortable. I'm sure they are not wide width based on that alone, but there is no indication. My foot is right on the D/E break at 100mm. (265mm length)

1) It seems the liners are not removable, therefore I am guessing not heat moldable besides body heat?

2) If they are that tight now, can I expect them to loosen in width much at all?

3) Length seems just fine when in riding position, but my big toe jams hard when I stand up straight. Problem, normal?

Thanks in advance for any input you or anyone else might have

Edit - Additional info - I only expect these boots to get me through this season. I also have a pair of size 10 F20s which I've ridden 4 times and they are definitely too big, but quite comfy and I can ride them no problem if I'm not on demanding terrain, which I don't have around here. Oh, and a pair of Burton Ruler sz 9 which give me the same pain on the outside of my foot. Didn't make it 2 runs on those before it hurt too much.


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## Wiredsport

Hi,

Please post your four barefoot measurements. STOKED!


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## Dmaynard

Wiredsport said:


> Hi,
> 
> Please post your four barefoot measurements. STOKED!


Left - 264 / 100
Right - 265 / 101


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## Wiredsport

Dmaynard said:


> Left - 264 / 100
> Right - 265 / 101


Hi, You are Mondopoint 265 or size 8.5 US in snowboard boots. You are at the high side of the range for E width which always requires a Wide boot. Only Salomon produces their Wide boots for E width. I would strongly suggest the Salomon Dialogue Wide or Salomon Synapse Wide Wide in Mondo 265.


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## Dmaynard

Wiredsport said:


> Hi, You are Mondopoint 265 or size 8.5 US in snowboard boots. You are at the high side of the range for E width which always requires a Wide boot. Only Salomon produces their Wide boots for E width. I would strongly suggest the Salomon Dialogue Wide or Salomon Synapse Wide Wide in Mondo 265.


One of your videos has a width chart and I thought I fall right between D/E. Am I wrong? Just double checking before I spend money.


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## Wiredsport

Dmaynard said:


> One of your videos has a width chart and I thought I fall right between D/E. Am I wrong? Just double checking before I spend money.


Yes, You are at the high side of the range for E width. 

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