# Switching from forward to duck



## Altephor (Feb 4, 2010)

Right now my angles are pretty wacky (+12,0), mainly due to my inability to ride in a duck stance. The whole reason I got my NS Evo over the SL (The proto had not come out yet ) was to ride a true twin so that switch would be as comfortable as forward riding. So originally I set up with a +9,-9 stance, which feels comfortable while standing in my living room, but for some reason when I'm turning I have the urge to twist my back knee forward, which resulted in absolutely shredding my knee. I could barely move it on the drive home. So I went to a lesser duck, something like +12,-3. Still painful. The 0 back angle doesn't seem to bother my knee, but I'm also bummed because now I have the same issue riding switch since it effectively makes my back foot -12. 

Any tips on unlearning this weird instinct? I essentially taught myself how to board after years of skiing, and am not that good, but this one bad habit is preventing me from riding the way I want to.


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## larrytbull (Oct 30, 2013)

do you have canted Bindings?
Perhaps they might help? 
do your knees bother you outside of snowboarding?


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## Kevin137 (May 5, 2013)

A shot in the dark, have you considered riding your bindings 0/+12 instead of +12/0

This will, or should be a benefit to riding switch, and might stop you riding your regular way while you learn, it will also build the muscles you need in the wrong leg, i think it is probably more a psychological issue to start, but either bad knees etc which add to the issue...

But what do i know, i started the same way as you, and it was a real pain to get out of this, and i really couldn't get to grip with changed bindings, so i did this, and it became more natural after a month or so and now i don't have issues...

Canted bindings may help, but is not the only answer...!


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## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

Sounds to me like you're probably rotating your upper body to face down the mountain while you're riding which would cause you to torque the shit out of your rear knee. It's a common bad habit. You may not even realize you're doing it. Try to have somebody video you riding. I'd bet money on it.


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## Altephor (Feb 4, 2010)

linvillegorge said:


> Sounds to me like you're probably rotating your upper body to face down the mountain while you're riding which would cause you to torque the shit out of your rear knee. It's a common bad habit. You may not even realize you're doing it. Try to have somebody video you riding. I'd bet money on it.


This is exactly what's happening, and I do realize it, I just can't seem to break out of it. I am fine just traveling straight down, but when I go to turn I rotate my entire body into them. Which, of course, is all the time.

Any tips to keep myself from facing down the hill? This is also the issue I think I have with toeside turns (which is really what I twist into and sort of 'force' the turn/carve rather than let my edges do the work).


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## Kevin137 (May 5, 2013)

If you are rotating your body, then try what i suggested, see if you do it the other way as well... It is all in the mind, and just a habit you need to break...


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## Deacon (Mar 2, 2013)

Altephor said:


> This is exactly what's happening, and I do realize it, I just can't seem to break out of it. I am fine just traveling straight down, but when I go to turn I rotate my entire body into them. Which, of course, is all the time.
> 
> Any tips to keep myself from facing down the hill? This is also the issue I think I have with toeside turns (which is really what I twist into and sort of 'force' the turn/carve rather than let my edges do the work).


Hang on to your pant legs, and work on your pump and dump. You need to get used to initiating your carve with your front foot.


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## chomps1211 (Mar 30, 2011)

Grab Your Ass!!!




….actually it's your thighs! Early on I was told that If I wanted to keep my shoulders aligned with the board, I could grab a handfull of pant leg at my thighs. This would keep me from rotating my shoulders too far. 

Give it a try! If that doesn't help, try booking a private lesson and have the instructor work with you on any bad habits he/she sees in your riding!

Lastly,.. If you can't do either of those. Try and get a pal to film you riding. Have them following close enough that you're not just a speck in the frame, but also far enough back that we can see your _whole_ body as you ride,..! 
_(…you're a chick right? Boy oh boy, I hope you're a chick!)_  :hairy: Whoops,.. I digress! :laugh: That's so we can clearly observe your riding technique! Yeah,.. That's it, your technique!  

Post _that_ video here for a critique. :thumbsup:

:hairy:


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## Altephor (Feb 4, 2010)

chomps1211 said:


> Grab Your Ass!!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Nope, not a chick, sorry. I will probably book a lesson or two. My girlfriend is also just learning to ride (she's been once, with me trying to instruct), and the local mountain does small group lessons, so may go that route.


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## chomps1211 (Mar 30, 2011)

Altephor said:


> ....*My girlfriend is also just learning to ride (she's been once, with me trying to instruct), and the local mountain does small group lessons, so may go that route.*


Good deal!

If you book your group lesson on a slow or mid week day,...? You & your gal might be the only two in the group. My first lesson worked out like that. Booked it on a Sun. afternoon, late in the season. I was the only person in the group. It was Just like getting a private lesson only cheaper. 


(...btw, if you enjoy your lesson? Tip your instructor! They make shit for wages!)


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## Altephor (Feb 4, 2010)

chomps1211 said:


> Good deal!
> 
> If you book your group lesson on a slow or mid week day,...? You & your gal might be the only two in the group. My first lesson worked out like that. Booked it on a Sun. afternoon, late in the season. I was the only person in the group. It was Just like getting a private lesson only cheaper.
> 
> ...



Hmm didn't think of that. They offer private small group lessons. But I didn't consider maybe doing a regular group on a slow day. Save some money at least, probably.

The only problem I'm seeing is that lessons are just an hour. Not sure how much can be accomplished in an hour.


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## speedjason (May 2, 2013)

Less upper body counter rotating.
Turn your head more.
Try grab the bottom center of your jacket and ride that way will stabilize your upper body. You can also try put your hands behind your back. Grab side of your pants.
I ride +12/-12.


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## Steezus Christ (Jul 29, 2013)

more practice! you can never get enough practice for switch riding. when you're on cat tracks to the lift or just generally easier parts of a run, ride switch. force yourself to do it. its the only way to kick bad habits and build up muscle memory in your other leg. some times when the snow is pretty shit and theres nothing to do but groomers, my friends and I try to do full days of just riding switch, getting on and off lifts switch too. it gets funny sometimes


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## Altephor (Feb 4, 2010)

The problem isn't really riding switch, it's my my knees twisting in duck stance.. honestly the first time i took the evo out I thought my season was over they hurt so badly. I will try holding the pants, seems like that would help.


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## Manicmouse (Apr 7, 2014)

Are your feet/ankles aligned with your knees? Serious question! When you stand and squat with your feet pointing straight forward do your knees knock together, go apart or stay in line with your feet?

Sometimes you need weird angles on your bindings to cope with your body. I know I do, I have a natural duck stance going on before I even put on my bindings!

If that's not the issue then I'm sure it's just technique, not standing sideways enough, not leading turns with your shoulders/head etc etc.


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## Jed (May 11, 2011)

Just takes practice and time to unlearn your previous habit, unfortunately there's no 'quick fix' for bad habits.

I assume you already know the balancd position you should be riding in (hands over nose and tail of your snowboard, centered on snowboard with knees semi pushing outward each way in a cowboy like stance).

Try this: Pretend you're on camera 24/7. If you pretend someone is recording your riding, it forces you to keep correcting and thinking about your stance. People tend to ride much better and pay more attention to their technique when they ride as if they're being recorded.


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## SkullAndXbones (Feb 24, 2014)

everyone is giving solid advice.  like jed said, it takes a little while to get things right. eventually, it will become second nature and you will do it without thinking. i'm not a very good teacher because i'm self taught so i don't really have any tips to provide because i never thought about them other than "this doesn't feel right, i think i need to change it" and a lot of times i'm able to figure it out on my own. but to me, it sounds you are doing a lot of slash/slide carving? maybe try leaning into your carves more? i don't know

edit: and like jason said, it sounds like your doing a lot of counter rotation with your upper body which can cause a twisting type of strain in your legs?


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## SkullAndXbones (Feb 24, 2014)

another thing is that it can be even harder to break the counter rotation habit on a crowded mountain because you're constantly trying to avoid hitting people and you end up going right back to what you're used to doing because you can turn or stop quicker that way. if you can, try and find the least crowded resort in your area so that you have room to practice all these things and really hone them down.


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## davidj (May 30, 2011)

*What About 0/0?*

Did OP try a 0/0 stance angle? If not, that might be a stop gap while working to correct riding technique... maybe :dunno:


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## Steezus Christ (Jul 29, 2013)

Play around with ur stance a bit. Narrow it, widen it, change angles and test them. I started out at a standard +15, -9 for a few years and changed it up to +12,-9 and widened it. +15,-15 was too much for me so now settled on +12,-12 and maxed out. I find 24 degrees to be the sweet spot for me in terms of angles, i.e +18, -6 for free ride and +12, -12 for freestyle


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## ItchEtrigR (Jan 1, 2012)

Jed and Chomps give some good pointers here, only thing I can add is take it slow, if your having trouble grabbing a hold of things, take it back to the bunny hill or green run where your able to take things slow with little effort and concentrate on what matters instead.


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## EastCoastChris (Feb 24, 2013)

For what its worth I once had some tell me to think of my knee on my lead foot as an eyeball (I imagine a sick SciFi like robotiv eyeball just cuz its fun.) When in your stance make sure eyeball knee is always looking at...in fact...staring down your line. Your eyeball knee is driving your turn. Your other back knee is just a sad little gopher in the robotic eyeball army. Don't let him make any decisions at all. Front eyeball knee unequivocally decides where to go and back knee follows. 

Once I started focusing where front eyeball knee was looking and not letting back knee have any say in the matter...I shed the horrible upper body torque habit I used to have. Upper body torque habit for me seemed to come from not respecting the natural chain of command. And I found OMG I can ride duck!

When I get wicked tired sometimes eyeball knee wants to give it up and let back knee pick up some slack I find myself twisting my body all over the place. Damn you back knee. Fall in!


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## zenboarder (Mar 5, 2009)

EastCoastChris said:


> For what its worth I once had some tell me to think of my knee on my lead foot as an eyeball (I imagine a sick SciFi like robotiv eyeball just cuz its fun.) When in your stance make sure eyeball knee is always looking at...in fact...staring down your line. Your eyeball knee is driving your turn. Your other back knee is just a sad little gopher in the robotic eyeball army. Don't let him make any decisions at all. Front eyeball knee unequivocally decides where to go and back knee follows.
> 
> Once I started focusing where front eyeball knee was looking and not letting back knee have any say in the matter...I shed the horrible upper body torque habit I used to have. Upper body torque habit for me seemed to come from not respecting the natural chain of command. And I found OMG I can ride duck!
> 
> When I get wicked tired sometimes eyeball knee wants to give it up and let back knee pick up some slack I find myself twisting my body all over the place. Damn you back knee. Fall in!


That's not really correct. Your turn should come from shifting weight over the edge. You want equal pressure between front and back legs. There should be no foot leading when properly carving. Otherwise it's just bad technique or something along the lines of skidded turns.


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## EastCoastChris (Feb 24, 2013)

Oh man...no way could I start a turn with equal pressure over both feet. I would pretty much die. My front foot needs to start a turn if I am going fast. Or my back foot will push the edge out. I totally tweak my body like a fish and not just skid turn but skid pretty much everywhere. It sounded like this dude was having the same upper body twisting issue.


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## Simon Birch (Mar 11, 2014)

Steezus Christ said:


> Play around with ur stance a bit. Narrow it, widen it, change angles and test them. I started out at a standard +15, -9 for a few years and changed it up to +12,-9 and widened it. +15,-15 was too much for me so now settled on +12,-12 and maxed out. I find 24 degrees to be the sweet spot for me in terms of angles, i.e +18, -6 for free ride and +12, -12 for freestyle


^ Great advice, try doing what Steezus recommends. Also watch some youtube vids on learning to ride switch.


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## Deacon (Mar 2, 2013)

zenboarder said:


> That's not really correct. Your turn should come from shifting weight over the edge. You want equal pressure between front and back legs. There should be no foot leading when properly carving. Otherwise it's just bad technique or something along the lines of skidded turns.


Nope. You absolutely should shift your weight fore and aft as you progress through the arc of your carve.


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## Manicmouse (Apr 7, 2014)

Deacon said:


> Nope. You absolutely should shift your weight fore and aft as you progress through the arc of your carve.


This.

Once you're in the flow linking turns you're essentially rocking nose -> tail -> nose -> tail etc to some extent.


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## lab49232 (Sep 13, 2011)

Carving is a series of steps but simply shifting weight to turn would lead to some nasty edge catches. Your snowboard drives like your car, turns start from the front or nose and then moves back through the board.


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## speedjason (May 2, 2013)

Well, you initiate turns with front foot then rear foot.


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## Mel M (Feb 2, 2012)

Altephor said:


> Right now my angles are pretty wacky (+12,0), mainly due to my inability to ride in a duck stance. The whole reason I got my NS Evo over the SL (The proto had not come out yet ) was to ride a true twin so that switch would be as comfortable as forward riding. So originally I set up with a +9,-9 stance, which feels comfortable while standing in my living room, but for some reason when I'm turning I have the urge to twist my back knee forward, which resulted in absolutely shredding my knee. I could barely move it on the drive home. So I went to a lesser duck, something like +12,-3. Still painful. The 0 back angle doesn't seem to bother my knee, but I'm also bummed because now I have the same issue riding switch since it effectively makes my back foot -12.
> 
> Any tips on unlearning this weird instinct? I essentially taught myself how to board after years of skiing, and am not that good, but this one bad habit is preventing me from riding the way I want to.


I didn't read through all the posts, so this may be covered, but I'll give my 2 cents.

I ride both forward AND duck with my two boards. One board's set duck for freestyle fooling around and the other when I pretend to be a BX racer... but am really for from one.

When you're forward, your body is aligned with your feet and not your board. This gives the illusion of a slight counter-rotation, but in reality you're not really counter-rotated. When you're in duck, your body is aligned with your board.

What I find in a forward stance, is that I really use my knees to drive into the turn, particularly my front knee. When I use a duck and want go in a deep, fast carve, I use my hips more. Because I use my hips more in a duck, I'm utilizing a hump and dump type form for my turns. This demands more alignment with you're board. The same principles of fore to aft weight shift applies to both.

One thing I tell people when they're having trouble keeping alignment is to raise their hands and go down the mountain akin to Da Vinci's Vitruvian Man. That can serve as a visual reference because if you're hands aren't aligned with your board, then you're body isn't.

If you can do a squat in a gym, then you can ride duck. IMO, duck is a more natural body position to be on a snowboard. I find the best way to find the right angle and stance width is to do a squat on a snowboard without the bindings. Then see if you can shift your weight to the front and back, akin to doing a press. Mark your snowboard with tape, then put your bindings on. Screw it in lightly and if you have four screws, just put in two corner ones. Then go back on and do the same motions. Do squats and jumps without losing your balance and do tail and nose presses if you can, even if you're not a freestyler. This way, you can test your complete range of motion before you get on a mountain. Sometimes you can tell big differences with even just 3 degree increments. You're knees and hips should have full range of motion. When you're satisfied, tighten and put the rest of the screws on. You may still find you need to make an adjustment after riding it down, but this should get you really close.

Best of Luck!


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## ZeMax (Feb 21, 2014)

Great thread Altephor. Picked up a few pointers for myself as I am switching from 60/55 and am down to 18/-9. The whole hip thing facing forward is makign a lot of sense here.

You're not alone having a hard time


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## flash (Dec 14, 2014)

Mel M said:


> I didn't read through all the posts, so this may be covered, but I'll give my 2 cents.
> 
> I ride both forward AND duck with my two boards. One board's set duck for freestyle fooling around and the other when I pretend to be a BX racer... but am really for from one.
> 
> ...


15/-15 duck stance is my absolute favorite, and completely agree it is a very natural body position to be on a snowboard. 

i find myself bending my knees, getting low, and then grabbing onto my pants on both sides, and ensuring that my hips, arms, and body move in alignment together during both heel and toe side turns. after a few turns, i let go off the pants and then spread my arms out a bit into fists or something like that.

best of luck !


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