# Destroy my form



## speedjason (May 2, 2013)

Hard to say when you are not going fast. I say you are doing pretty okay.


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## SlvrDragon50 (Mar 25, 2017)

speedjason said:


> Hard to say when you are not going fast enough. I say you are doing pretty good.


I'll get a new video today from a blue. I'm thinking about bumping up the forward lean on my bindings one more setting but not sure if it's just a bandage for poor technique. I know I get lazy with bending my knees sometimes.


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## speedjason (May 2, 2013)

SlvrDragon50 said:


> I'll get a new video today from a blue. I'm thinking about bumping up the forward lean on my bindings one more setting but not sure if it's just a bandage for poor technique. I know I get lazy with bending my knees sometimes.


Try it, it might help with heel side turns.


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## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

SlvrDragon50 said:


> https://youtu.be/fPPc6jgrwuE
> 
> This was a slow green back to the lift so maybe not the best representative video, but I didn't think about getting a video until the end of the run.
> 
> I'm trying to learn how to keep my upper body more calm when riding and get better at quick edge to edge transitions. I do have a setback stance for powder that feels weird to turn on groomers to me. I just set up my board for reference today so I'll see how it goes on the mountain.


A few things:

1. Your stance looks too narrow and looks like that's forcing you to ride straight legged. Have you tried a wider stance? I say try it.

2. Your angles are pretty mellow. Not the end of the world if it feels good. But you're saying a setback stance feels weird to turn on powder and... it shouldn't. So i think it's YOUR stance (width and angles) not the setback.

3. Get lower. This is difficult on mellow green runs. So try it on steeper slopes. Wider stance helps too.

4. Be more aggressive with your edging and turning. There it looks like you were just slightly counter rotating to initiate each turn and then you just let the board do the rest and spin off under you.... you say you're trying to keep a calm upper body, but right now you're calm everywhere, so try being a little more decisive about it and applying some forces when you have to. This comes from bending the knees more, driving your front shoulder and actively pressuring the edges by distributing your weight where you need it. Everybody counter rotates some turns, when you have to counter rotate... you counter rotate. But in this case, you're doing it always and in a scenario where you wouldn't need to.

So... get lower and more aggressive. The rest will come from there...


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## chomps1211 (Mar 30, 2011)

The reality is,.. without seeing you riding faster, on something steeper, there really isn't much to critique. :shrug:

You aren't doing anything particularly wrong on _that_ slope, at _that_ speed. Unless I was looking to carve side to side across the entire run, I wouldn't be doing anything much different than you were in the same situation. :shrug:

Get some footage (...safely) of you on a steeper run going at your normal speed for such a slope. Then we might be able to see what, if any, the _real_ holes in your technique are. 

In the meantime,.. I would definitely get rid of the artificial setback you've mounted your bindings at. Center them on the sidecut as they were meant to be. I would also think about going with a slightly wider stance. 

And as for forward lean? Put as much lean into your highbacks as you're comfortable with. It's *NOT* "cheating to compensate for poor technique!" I have _lots_ of FWD lean dialed in to all my bindings. 

Except for park rats,... I believe most All Mountain riders will have FWD lean to some degree dialed into their kit. If it help? Use it! It's _why_ it exists. 
>


:hairy:


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## Scalpelman (Dec 5, 2017)

Looks decent. I’m no expert but when I’m practicing my carve form at low speed like that I still try to get low even if I don’t really NEED to at that speed. That way you can focus on planting the edges and allow the sidecut to carry you through the turn. When you feel it lock in, there will be no mistake if you are doing it right. 

Try to eliminate the pause between toe and heel transitions. At the end of each turn before you initiate the next, you are sliding. Get to a smooth perfectly timed toe heel rhythm while the upper body is not popping up and down.


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## rayt100 (Aug 29, 2016)

Agree to all of the above, experiment with widening your stance and angles. I would change the stance width first. I use to ride about 21 and when I widened it to 22 - 22.5 it made such a difference. You'll never know until you try it. If it feels weird you can always go back to the original width.


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## SlvrDragon50 (Mar 25, 2017)

F1EA said:


> A few things:
> 
> 1. Your stance looks too narrow and looks like that's forcing you to ride straight legged. Have you tried a wider stance? I say try it.
> 
> ...


1. Returned to reference stance, and the board rode so much better on groomers. Felt way more confident with runs. Unfortunately wasn't able to get a video because my friend crashed a jump bad and we just got off the mountain quick. Will be trying tree runs tomorrow.

2. How much lower are we talking here? Am I like way too high or just a bit high? I've always been unsure how much I should be squatting down. I tend to squat down low when I start to go faster.

3. I started riding switch today, and I think it was helping me remember that I need to be more aggressive with switching edges. One question with respect to front shoulder, so should I still expect to be moving my upper body slightly as I'm initiating the turn or is it supposed to always be in line with the board?

I definitely struggle with immediately switching between edges, but I feel a lot better with it this year vs. last year. 

Thanks for all the tips!


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## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

SlvrDragon50 said:


> 1. Returned to reference stance, and the board rode so much better on groomers. Felt way more confident with runs. Unfortunately wasn't able to get a video because my friend crashed a jump bad and we just got off the mountain quick. Will be trying tree runs tomorrow.
> 
> 2. How much lower are we talking here? Am I like way too high or just a bit high? I've always been unsure how much I should be squatting down. I tend to squat down low when I start to go faster.
> 
> ...


I actually forgot to mention, if your board is rocker between the feet, then setting it back outside of reference will throw you out of whack much more than if it is mostly camber or flat-rocker. 

You don't need to completely sit on the board right away. But try to actively think about and bend more. A little bit, a lot, the important is to actively do it. When your knees are bent it makes everything easier: more balanced, more edge force, keeps your body more aligned with the board, and your weight more stacked over your edge, etc. 

Also, there's times when you can relax a bit and be less crouched when you're feeling tired. Choose your battles there... but you should feel your quads killing you.

Yes, you initiate turns from your knees but you add power and drive with your upper body. The key is to keep your shoulders aligned with the board. This is part of the aggression... so even though you are moving the upper body, you're keeping it aligned with the board, so you use your upper body to ADD power instead of using it to initiate the turns. Many pros ride with lots of upper body movement; most CASI people and instructors ride with a very silent upper body. The CASI method is for sure more efficient, but... this ain't about productivity. It is about fun and finding your style.


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## SlvrDragon50 (Mar 25, 2017)

F1EA said:


> I actually forgot to mention, if your board is rocker between the feet, then setting it back outside of reference will throw you out of whack much more than if it is mostly camber or flat-rocker.
> 
> You don't need to completely sit on the board right away. But try to actively think about and bend more. A little bit, a lot, the important is to actively do it. When your knees are bent it makes everything easier: more balanced, more edge force, keeps your body more aligned with the board, and your weight more stacked over your edge, etc.
> 
> ...


Got it, I think that's where I'm finding confusion with the upper body. The CASI guys have such a silent upper body and then I watch the pros counter rotate quite a bit. My board has Arbor's System Camber, don't know if there's any rocker at all, don't believe so. But it turns much better now, I never really feel like the back is turning on me unless I'm weighting the back foot.

I'm pretty happy with the widened stance so I'll add more forward lean tomorrow.


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## chomps1211 (Mar 30, 2011)

SlvrDragon50 said:


> Got it, I think that's where I'm finding confusion with the upper body. The CASI guys have such a silent upper body and then I watch the pros counter rotate quite a bit. My board has Arbor's System Camber, don't know if there's any rocker at all, don't believe so. But it turns much better now, I never really feel like the back is turning on me unless I'm weighting the back foot.
> 
> I'm pretty happy with the widened stance so I'll add more forward lean tomorrow.


The original thread is 7 years old now, but I think you might find it to be an appropriate read!

Good Riders/Bad Form


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## speedjason (May 2, 2013)

SlvrDragon50 said:


> Got it, I think that's where I'm finding confusion with the upper body. The CASI guys have such a silent upper body and then I watch the pros counter rotate quite a bit. My board has Arbor's System Camber, don't know if there's any rocker at all, don't believe so. But it turns much better now, I never really feel like the back is turning on me unless I'm weighting the back foot.
> 
> I'm pretty happy with the widened stance so I'll add more forward lean tomorrow.


It doesn't really matter. What matters is whatever works for you.
That's why a steeper and faster run is better to see things more cleanly.
I guess from you video there might be not enough front foot turn initiation but we really don't know what you were trying to do.


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## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

SlvrDragon50 said:


> Got it, I think that's where I'm finding confusion with the upper body. The CASI guys have such a silent upper body and then I watch the pros counter rotate quite a bit. My board has Arbor's System Camber, don't know if there's any rocker at all, don't believe so. But it turns much better now, I never really feel like the back is turning on me unless I'm weighting the back foot.
> 
> I'm pretty happy with the widened stance so I'll add more forward lean tomorrow.


Arbor system camber is mostly camber. There will be very little difference setting it a bit off the ref stance. But if you feel better at ref, then ride it there.

Also yes, silent or not silent upper body is fine. Whatever you like or find more fun or stylish.

So go with that, a slightly wider stance, add some fwd lean and consciously try to keep your knees bent when you're turning/carving/whatever...


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## Scalpelman (Dec 5, 2017)

I view these “carving mantras” as techniques to have in your arsenal to get down the mountain. If you can rail turns at low to moderate speed, it will help you immensely on more advanced terrain. You will ride with better control and purpose and be able to “pick your line” as you bomb the steeps. Will your upper body be silent when you do so? Probably not. Will you be counter rotated from time to time? Yes. But these techniques may come to mind when you’re teetering on the brink of disaster and you pull back under control. That’s the point. At least it’s my opinion.


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## wrathfuldeity (Oct 5, 2007)

SlvrDragon50 said:


> Got it, I think that's where I'm finding confusion with the upper body. The CASI guys have such a silent upper body and then I watch the pros counter rotate quite a bit. ....


Casi guys and pros...two different intentions, 2 different levels of riding. It is important to be able to ride with a quiet upper body...its just a piece of the progression and a skill that is just a tool in the toolbox. Pros can ride quiet, but they don't have/need to. In part, if you ride with a quiet upper body, it helps to be able to isolate and focus on other things/movements that influence what you want to do.

For example, go to a easy green run, just slow/moderate cruise it with a quiet entire body..upper and lower. As you are just cruising, only swing your arms...like when walking. Notice what happens...then think about when using the swing of your arms to help your riding...and when it will hinder your riding. So a quiet upper body can be a hindrance at times and at other times be an advantage (like flat-basing a flat cat track).


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## fraxmental (Jun 25, 2011)

https://www.redbull.com/int-en/tv/video/AP-1X76WC5XD1W11/how-to-master-a-toe-side-turn


i think this video is a good example of advanced level riding, also with some exceptions to the rule, that were mostly pointed in this thread, and rules that a lot of us were trying to increase our riding level with. As you become a better rider i think you can ride and mix a lot of styles and make them work...and even make them look good.


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## Argo (Feb 25, 2010)

you ride like a gaper, you look like a gorilla humping a beach ball. 

I did not watch any of your videos btw. Just putting that out there.


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## chomps1211 (Mar 30, 2011)

Argo said:


> * you ride like a gaper, you look like a gorilla humping a beach ball. *
> 
> I did not watch any of your videos btw. Just putting that out there.



*FINALLY!!!*

Someone who read & fulfilled the OP's original request. :rofl3:


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## f00bar (Mar 6, 2014)

Isn't there a redit for this?

I read it as destroy my mom. Mission accomplished.


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## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

Don't mind the haters. Your mom is fine.


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## ctoma (Aug 9, 2011)

^ She's more than fine.... she's super-fine.


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## SlvrDragon50 (Mar 25, 2017)

Oops, posted in wrong thread. Updated video:

New video from a faster blue run:


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## neni (Dec 24, 2012)

SlvrDragon50 said:


> 2. How much lower are we talking here? Am I like way too high or just a bit high? I've always been unsure how much I should be squatting down. *I tend to squat down low when I start to go faster.*





SlvrDragon50 said:


> Oops, posted in wrong thread. Updated video:
> 
> New video from a faster blue run:


That's why videos are a good self-control. You _think_ you bend, but now see that you don't. Second vid shows passive stiff legged riding, too, just faster . 

Get dynamic. Loosen your knees before you start a run. Shake them, and squat real low. When riding, knees angle should vary/move up n down all the time when doing a run like that. Imagine you do squats against the turn. Get real low approaching the turn, push against the turn and accordingly they are less bent at the end of it. Rinse-repeat.


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## rayt100 (Aug 29, 2016)

Here's some example of bending knees. Advanced riding but something to shoot for.


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## Aracan (Nov 24, 2017)

You are stiff-legged, you counter-rotate, and you don't look where you want to go, especially not on the frontside. 
Start by looking where your turn should lead, follow up with your shoulders and hips. Give the board time to follow your inputs. When you feel that happening, you can start thinking about what to do with your knees.


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## Morzak (Dec 22, 2016)

Yeah compare the two videos you're not really bending your knees more on the blue run. Try to really bend the knees like if you are squatting, exaggerate the movement, because even if it feels exaggerated it will probably still not be enough. I always have to fight with me to get really low when riding steeper terrain, because it alwayys feels like I'm bending way more then I'm actually am.


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## rayt100 (Aug 29, 2016)

Just go to Youtube and watch the 100's of videos and compare it your riding, Keep recording your sessions see if your progressing. Bending means sitting down and rising up, sit on a chair and rise up that's the motion. Really you can find tons of instructional videos


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## Aracan (Nov 24, 2017)

As already hinted, I really don't think the OP is at the point where he needs to agonise about getting low. First practice turning without counter-rotating. When you can do that, start turning more aggressively, i.e. lower.


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## crispers (Jan 11, 2015)

F1EA said:


> So... get lower and more aggressive. The rest will come from there...


This. 

Curious, what resort is that?


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## wrathfuldeity (Oct 5, 2007)

You can always get low, I.e., bending the knees enough to touch the ground/snow and even just cruise while resting your elbows on yer knees (as in the creepy basement). It will help to be mindful of what hand and where you put that hand. Often on heelside I'll put my hands between my legs down by my ankles and on toeside will reach out with my trailing hand and touch the snow.

notice how his leading knee is moved/pushed forward, leading hip and shoulder are rotated in to the turn, weight is on the nose since he is in the initiation phase of the carve and over the heelside edge and his cog is railing over the heelside edge.










and a nice little vid below

https://onboardmag.com/features/talking-points/the-art-of-carving.html


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## drblast (Feb 28, 2017)

Only problem I see is that there is not enough neon on your jacket and pants. This is snowboarding, not catholic school.


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## drblast (Feb 28, 2017)

Also you blew right by that little renaissance festival without buying a turkey leg. What's wrong with you?


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## drblast (Feb 28, 2017)

Finally, where the hell are you beginners going where there are perfect groomers with *nobody* on them? Point that f%$*&%$ board straight and go!

I don't want to be at work right now.


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## drblast (Feb 28, 2017)

In all seriousness now, not that the previous comments weren't serious (because khaki pants?), but let me draw your attention to the plumes of snow coming off the back and sides of your board the entire run. Plumes of snow are where you are dragging and skidding the board through the snow instead of getting it on edge. Plumes are wasted energy.

It's difficult to feel the flow of proper riding if you're constantly bleeding off energy and skidding turns. If you do nothing else, concentrate on getting the board on edge and making pencil thin lines in the snow. This will naturally force you to get lower and go faster. You'll feel way more comfortable on edge if you're crouching. And if you try to make really short tight rapid turns on your edge like the pro in the beginning of that Never Summer porn video that someone posted after yours you won't be able to do it unless your body is positioned properly.


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## speedjason (May 2, 2013)

SlvrDragon50 said:


> Oops, posted in wrong thread. Updated video:
> New video from a faster blue run:


I think you are doing pretty good for only riding about 15 days.
Just like everything, it's easy to get to 80% but takes years to perfect the rest.
I don't see any kind of carving so I assume you don't know how yet and that is understandable.
Takes more than 50 days to perfect carving. I think I started carving at around 30 days and then just continue perfecting it.
You can probably get lower and more dynamic. More front foot initiation instead of just moving the back leg.
A good indication when you start carving is the lines you leave in snow. There should only be one narrow line.


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## SlvrDragon50 (Mar 25, 2017)

Thanks! I moved the forward lean forward and got a feeling for being more squatted down and realized it the following day (yesterday, day after the video). But it was pretty uncomfortable otherwise so I dialed it back. 

I think the problem I have with not skidding turns is that I feel like I am picking up too much speed and start to panic. I'm definitely better than when I started the season with minimizing big skidded turns. I don't quite fully understand how to control speed when carving without carving uphill.

Luckily, tons of powder days coming up :grin:

The mountain was Buttermilk at Aspen. Probably a total of 50 people on the entire mountain. Awesome for learning switch and other experimentation.


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## t21 (Dec 29, 2010)

I was about to ask how long have you been riding but,found out been 15 days. Not bad for that amount of time. The only thing i noticed besides everyone mentioning bend knees/lower down is you are pushing your board on both toe and heel side. What i mean is when you are switching edges(toe/heel,vice versa)you tend to push it right before you finish your turn. Relax your legs,ie.when you initiate your toe side turn,front foot first push toe,shin, knee down to engage your edge,look where you are going while shoulder is parallel to your direction.as you are turning,follow thru with your back foot BUT let the sidecut of your board fully engage and stop yourself from releasing your edge by pushing it to early,let it flow/ride on the edge smoothly. Heel side turn is the same except you squat down (about 3/4 low on early stage)and i'm sure you know how to initiate your heel side already but it is the same concept of finishing your turn. Practice this first on a mellower run until you feel comfortable to speed up a bit. Goodluck!


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## rayt100 (Aug 29, 2016)

Ride at a slower speed in control and pay attention to form. I always watch instructors to pick up tips. My friend took a private lesson and the teacher was drawing pencil thin lines back and forth the hill at 1/3 the speed you were going. In Japan I saw an instructor with perfect form carving beautiful lines, I followed the class trying to emulate him. I was stoked and when I got home I started watching videos and visualizing the moves. 
Slow it down and do wider turns across the mountain, feel the edge engage


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## rayt100 (Aug 29, 2016)

You might want to take a private lesson and have an instructor give you direct feedback. I think @neni would be a good teacher. she's so good at explaining things.


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## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

SlvrDragon50 said:


> Thanks! I moved the forward lean forward and got a feeling for being more squatted down and realized it the following day (yesterday, day after the video). But it was pretty uncomfortable otherwise so I dialed it back.
> 
> I think the problem I have with not skidding turns is that I feel like I am picking up too much speed and start to panic. I'm definitely better than when I started the season with minimizing big skidded turns. I don't quite fully understand how to control speed when carving without carving uphill.
> 
> ...


Yeah, try as much fwd lean as you can handle comfortably. But fwd lean will feel more uncomfortable if you don't bend your knees... it's a balance you have to figure out.

Proper form will burn your quads. So you have to manage yourself and mix up your riding between trying to get as low and aggressive as you can, then other times being more relaxed, etc. Until you get the hang of it and your body doesn't feel beat up.

For shaving speeds, turning slightly uphill is the best way of controlling your speed while still carrying proper form. So, that means longer turns. Longer turns end up being slower than shorter turns... 

You can also dump speed after a few turns with a skid, but then focus on having at least a few consecutive "proper turns". Little by little you will feel less need to skid every turn. Everyone skids turns. But the idea is to decide when you want to skid because you want to or really have to, not because that's the only way you can turn.

But all in all... the best is to get a good lesson with a good instructor. Or to just ride a lot and have fun and focus little by little on progressing at your own pace...


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## SlvrDragon50 (Mar 25, 2017)

F1EA said:


> Yeah, try as much fwd lean as you can handle comfortably. But fwd lean will feel more uncomfortable if you don't bend your knees... it's a balance you have to figure out.
> 
> Proper form will burn your quads. So you have to manage yourself and mix up your riding between trying to get as low and aggressive as you can, then other times being more relaxed, etc. Until you get the hang of it and your body doesn't feel beat up.
> 
> ...


Yea I definitely don't skid as much as I used to. I would love to get some instruction, but one session is about 25% of my monthly paycheck here :grin: bit too much for me! Maybe when I have a real job.

I just saw a bunch of people carving (actually carving) down some green runs, and they pretty much never skidded to control their speed, but maybe it was just because it was an easy green run that it wasn't needed.


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## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

SlvrDragon50 said:


> Yea I definitely don't skid as much as I used to. I would love to get some instruction, but one session is about 25% of my monthly paycheck here :grin: bit too much for me! Maybe when I have a real job.
> 
> I just saw a bunch of people carving (actually carving) down some green runs, and they pretty much never skidded to control their speed, but maybe it was just because it was an easy green run that it wasn't needed.


Hahahah ok Ramen won't cut it. Eat first 

Yeah they would easily be able to go down simple green runs without a skidded turns. If they do skid, it's for a reason... But if you look, their turns are also longer and involve compressing and decompressing the knees.

The point for you to go through this all, is because you actively want to learn. A lot of people also just flat base straightline those green runs... and others are fine just cruising all day. So if that's what they want, that's fine too...


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## wrathfuldeity (Oct 5, 2007)

SlvrDragon50 said:


> Thanks! I moved the forward lean forward and got a feeling for being more squatted down and realized it the following day (yesterday, day after the video). But it was pretty uncomfortable otherwise so I dialed it back.
> 
> *I think the problem I have with not skidding turns is that I feel like I am picking up too much speed and start to panic*. I'm definitely better than when I started the season with minimizing big skidded turns. I don't quite fully understand how to control speed when carving without carving uphill.
> 
> ...





F1EA said:


> Yeah, try as much fwd lean as you can handle comfortably. But fwd lean will feel more uncomfortable if you don't bend your knees... it's a balance you have to figure out.
> 
> Proper form will burn your quads. So you have to manage yourself and mix up your riding between trying to get as low and aggressive as you can, then other times being more relaxed, etc. Until you get the hang of it and your body doesn't feel beat up.
> 
> ...


And this is where you learn to feel the sidecut/radius and use it. In a sense you got to get comfortable with speed and letting the board run, then getting it up on edge to control your speed. Once you can get the board up on edge, it becomes how do I get pencil thin lines. Certainly my progression, is letting the board run and getting it up on edge at high speed (but its really shit style and control) so I've been working at trying to do it at much at slower speeds and on less slope...to do slow pencil thin lines is more of a challenge.


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## Scalpelman (Dec 5, 2017)

Well it sounds like you’re getting it. When you are on edge properly it almost feels like you are accelerating through the turn. Practice will let you become accustomed to the speed and feel. Good suggestions above. Congrats on your quick progression.


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## speedjason (May 2, 2013)

SlvrDragon50 said:


> Thanks! I moved the forward lean forward and got a feeling for being more squatted down and realized it the following day (yesterday, day after the video). But it was pretty uncomfortable otherwise so I dialed it back.
> 
> I think the problem I have with not skidding turns is that I feel like I am picking up too much speed and start to panic. I'm definitely better than when I started the season with minimizing big skidded turns. I don't quite fully understand how to control speed when carving without carving uphill.
> 
> ...


To not skid your turns or IE carve, there is going to be a lot more you need to do.
The edge engagement needs to be smooth and independent. You almost need to guide the edges into your turns.
Weight transfer needs to be dynamic though the turn. Because your edge engagement is dynamic, your weight transfer is going to be the same.
Look up Ryan Knapton on YT. He carves so hard you can see his board flexing torsional though the turn.
Also to control speed meaning you are going to change edges faster. However, if you are not carving, you are still gaining speed while skidding turns because skidding turns is sliding. Sliding is faster than gripping.


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## speedjason (May 2, 2013)

SlvrDragon50 said:


> I just saw a bunch of people carving (actually carving) down some green runs, and they pretty much never skidded to control their speed, but maybe it was just because it was an easy green run that it wasn't needed.


I carve as much as I can because it gives me the best control of my board.


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## SlvrDragon50 (Mar 25, 2017)

Gotcha. I definitely notice the slow transitions when I'm riding steeper terrain so it's one thing I'm really trying to work on as we're heading to Jackson Hole and Big Sky in a week.

Will report back when we get some groomer days again! Thanks for all the tips.


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## Scalpelman (Dec 5, 2017)

SlvrDragon50 said:


> Gotcha. I definitely notice the slow transitions when I'm riding steeper terrain so it's one thing I'm really trying to work on as we're heading to Jackson Hole and Big Sky in a week.
> 
> 
> 
> Will report back when we get some groomer days again! Thanks for all the tips.




Hell yeah! What an awesome trip. Envious. Go tear it up.


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## Aracan (Nov 24, 2017)

speedjason said:


> However, if you are not carving, you are still gaining speed while skidding turns because skidding turns is sliding. Sliding is faster than gripping.


I admit I understand no part of those two sentences. When you skid, you burn speed because you create friction perpendicular to your vector of travelling. That is why you come to a stop if you skid long and hard enough. 
When you carve, you create the minimum of friction perpendicular to your vector. You still burn some speed, because friction exists. But if you do not stray far from the fall line (far in relation to the steepness of the hill), the acceleration created by gravity is greater than the deceleration created by the little amount of friction. Result: On a steeper hill you have to stay in the turn longer so it will take you perpendicular across the fall line or even uphill in order to lose enough speed.


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## Snowdaddy (Feb 2, 2018)

Aracan said:


> I admit I understand no part of those two sentences. When you skid, you burn speed because you create friction perpendicular to your vector of travelling. That is why you come to a stop if you skid long and hard enough.
> When you carve, you create the minimum of friction perpendicular to your vector. You still burn some speed, because friction exists. But if you do not stray far from the fall line (far in relation to the steepness of the hill), the acceleration created by gravity is greater than the deceleration created by the little amount of friction. Result: On a steeper hill you have to stay in the turn longer so it will take you perpendicular across the fall line or even uphill in order to lose enough speed.


Even though a carve produces enough friction to stop the board from traveling in one direction/vector... so it's about the angle of the decent and also about what kind of friction the base generate, not just the edge. In practice, the edge mostly generate friction in one direction. Just like you said.

But when you burn speed you change the angle of the board as well.


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## speedjason (May 2, 2013)

Aracan said:


> I admit I understand no part of those two sentences. When you skid, you burn speed because you create friction perpendicular to your vector of travelling. That is why you come to a stop if you skid long and hard enough.
> When you carve, you create the minimum of friction perpendicular to your vector. You still burn some speed, because friction exists. But if you do not stray far from the fall line (far in relation to the steepness of the hill), the acceleration created by gravity is greater than the deceleration created by the little amount of friction. Result: On a steeper hill you have to stay in the turn longer so it will take you perpendicular across the fall line or even uphill in order to lose enough speed.


Yes, of course I was being generalized. But, carving allows you to control speed better than skidding.
Yes, skidding will burn speed but on a steeper hill, changing your turn shape while carving allows better control than skidding.


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## LALUNE (Feb 23, 2017)

speedjason said:


> Yes, of course I was being generalized. But, carving allows you to control speed better than skidding.
> Yes, skidding will burn speed but on a steeper hill, changing your turn shape while carving allows better control than skidding.


I agree and disagree on this.

Agree on being on edges will be of better control. Not everyone is in control flat basing on the mountains.

However, on steep runs, when you accelerate too fast, skidding turns come in handy for speed control. Carving turns can do the same but it requires you go a bit uphill, which means an opener run, to slow down.

If there's any other way to speed control in carving turns on steep runs, I am eager to know. Knowledge makes huge difference.


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## chomps1211 (Mar 30, 2011)

LALUNE said:


> I agree and disagree on this.
> 
> Agree on being on edges will be of better control. Not everyone is in control flat basing on the mountains.
> 
> ...


I am curious myself. 

I read the same sort of advice about bleeding/ controlling speed while on my longboard. This is what you're told to do before one learns how to properly Coleman slide. 

Said advice being, _not_ to simply straight line down the asphalt but to control speed by initiating deep carving turns on the longboard. 

While this does work to slow the rate at which one _builds_ speed,.. it doesn't *stop* you from continuing to speed up. 

Unless you slide/skid or complete the turn on an upslope angle,.. You're still going into each consecutive turn a little bit faster than the last. Building more & more speed ea. turn. :blink: (...I know!! I had to bail by ramming the curb and running it out on the grass!!) :laugh: 

Seems to me that the same applies to carving a snowboard. If all your S and C shaped, carved turns finish & transition edges before angling _Up_ slope? You're just going to continue to pick up speed with each turn. 

Seems to me that To control or maintain a steady speed carving. You'd need that wide open run in order to spend more time on each carve, either going across the fall line or finshing your turn going slightly up hill. Thereby bleeding or maintaining a steady speed. :shrug:

Seems that short of executing one or both of those techniques,.. a spraying board slash or skidded turn would be the only other effective way to bleed off excess (scary) speed. >

Im curious as I am certainly no expert carver. Am I correct in my thinking here? Or am I missing something essential?


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## speedjason (May 2, 2013)

LALUNE said:


> However, on steep runs, when you accelerate too fast, skidding turns come in handy for speed control. Carving turns can do the same but it requires you go a bit uphill, which means an opener run, to slow down.


The rate of your turns. The faster you change from edges to edges, the better you will have control of speed.


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## LALUNE (Feb 23, 2017)

speedjason said:


> The rate of your turns. The faster you change from edges to edges, the better you will have control of speed.
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vlWY1MFkHM4


I think in the video, when the instructor does quick, short radius turns (1:16), he skied at each one to burn a bit of speed. If he's completely on edge, I would assume he will keep accelerate on steeper terrains ( >30 degrees )


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## Snowdaddy (Feb 2, 2018)

chomps1211 said:


> I am curious myself.
> 
> I read the same sort of advice about bleeding/ controlling speed while on my longboard. This is what you're told to do before one learns how to properly Coleman slide.
> 
> ...


It's not because of sliding, even if that could also occur.

Your body have a certain amount of potential energy on the slope. That energy is converted into kinetic energy when you travel down the slope. When you carve some of that kinetic energy is transfered into what could be seen as elastic energy in your legs. Like a spring.

The energy going into your legs are dissipated into heat and friction etc.

Example: Taking you skateboard and climbing onto your garage roof, you then drop straight down into the asphalt below. The Potential energy is transformed into your legs trying to stop you from smashing into the ground. No slide, just legs working. Possible death occur.

Now... your brother (or sister) does the same exercise the next day, but drops in a place where there is 10 degree angle. Hoping to survive. Most of that energy is still going to end up in the legs working as a spring/shock absorber. There will be some movement down that 10 degree slope, but not the same as the final speed before impact. 

But this just of the top of my head guessing.


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## Aracan (Nov 24, 2017)

Say what you will, sliding does burn more speed than carving because there is a higher amount of friction in sliding. 
As for the question whether carving will only lower your rate of acceleration: That is a function of a number of factors, most importantly the radii of your turns, the extent to which you stay in each turn and the steepness of the hill. If you do quick, tight carves on a beginners' hill, you will most likely not make it to the bottom because you will run out of kinetic energy.
On a steep hill, you will, as has been pointed out by others before me, need to go uphill at the end of each turn (or slide), making not (-shapes but C-shapes.

ETA: Yes, your legs do work. However, whether your legs take some energy is not the most relevant thing. If you straightline down a sufficiently steep slope you can do squats all the time, you will still accelerate like nobody's business. If, on the other hand, you keep your legs pretty much straight but your board perpendicular to the fall line, you can keep this up without any acceleration whatsoever, see Ryan Knapton's infamous "extreme sliding" vid.


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## speedjason (May 2, 2013)

Aracan said:


> Say what you will, sliding does burn more speed than carving because there is a higher amount of friction in sliding.
> As for the question whether carving will only lower your rate of acceleration: That is a function of a number of factors, most importantly the radii of your turns, the extent to which you stay in each turn and the steepness of the hill. If you do quick, tight carves on a beginners' hill, you will most likely not make it to the bottom because you will run out of kinetic energy.
> On a steep hill, you will, as has been pointed out by others before me, need to go uphill at the end of each turn (or slide), making not (-shapes but C-shapes.


Carving is not frictionless like some of you guys are describing.
The track left by carving might be very narrow but the pressure is extremely high. Friction is the coefficient of the two surfaces times the downward force. Yes sliding can burn off speed, so can carving.


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## Aracan (Nov 24, 2017)

I never claimed carving was frictionless. 
What I do claim is: If I do turns of identical radii and stay in those turns for the same duration (passing the same segment of a circle), I will burn more speed if I slide through those turns than if I carve them.


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## LALUNE (Feb 23, 2017)

Aracan said:


> Say what you will, sliding does burn more speed than carving because there is a higher amount of friction in sliding.
> As for the question whether carving will only lower your rate of acceleration: That is a function of a number of factors, most importantly the radii of your turns, the extent to which you stay in each turn and the steepness of the hill. If you do quick, tight carves on a beginners' hill, you will most likely not make it to the bottom because you will run out of kinetic energy.
> On a steep hill, you will, as has been pointed out by others before me, need to go uphill at the end of each turn (or slide), making not (-shapes but C-shapes.
> 
> ETA: Yes, your legs do work. However, whether your legs take some energy is not the most relevant thing. If you straightline down a sufficiently steep slope you can do squats all the time, you will still accelerate like nobody's business. If, on the other hand, you keep your legs pretty much straight but your board perpendicular to the fall line, you can keep this up without any acceleration whatsoever, see Ryan Knapton's infamous "extreme sliding" vid.


This is pretty much my understanding of carving vs sliding. In terms of acceleration, I would say flat base > carving (without going uphill) > sliding.

But feel free to enlighten me if there's other ways using carving turns to control speed on steep terrains while not going uphill. I would love to learn the techniques.


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## Aracan (Nov 24, 2017)

LALUNE said:


> while not going uphill


Why not? Seriously, why not go uphill? I do it all the time.


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## LALUNE (Feb 23, 2017)

Aracan said:


> Why not? Seriously, why not go uphill? I do it all the time.


I mean since I know going uphill will control speed, I am curious to know if there's any other techniques can do the same.


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## Snowdaddy (Feb 2, 2018)

LALUNE said:


> I mean since I know going uphill will control speed, I am curious to know if there's any other techniques can do the same.


Shorter radius turns, but it's not going to burn speed like a sliding stop.


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## LALUNE (Feb 23, 2017)

Snowdaddy said:


> Shorter radius turns, but it's not going to burn speed like a sliding stop.


If you mean the shorter radius carving turns, like I said in couple of posts before, I don't think this will stop you from accelerating on steep terrain unless you slide a part of each turn.

Edit: I know this would work on blue runs.


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## Aracan (Nov 24, 2017)

I think there is a limit to how short and tight your carves can be. At some point gravity will accelerate you quicker than you can decelerate by carving tighter. Then you go uphill instead.


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## Snowdaddy (Feb 2, 2018)

LALUNE said:


> If you mean the shorter radius carving turns, like I said in couple of posts before, I don't think this will stop you from accelerating on steep terrain unless you slide a part of each turn.


You will accelerate when the board is pointing down hill, but even if you don't turn the board/skis perpendicular to the slope you can swap kinetic energy into elastic energy by "falling into your board" and using your legs as an absorber. It's easier to do with shorter radius turns. Much Like a skier in a mogul field.

Naturally there are limits for this. Edge hold and turn radius for one, but it's still usable for controlling speed if you don't want to slide.

I guess it depends what you consider steep terrain. And what is considered a carve. Carves often turn into half sliding turns under pressure. If it's a long pencil line carve I'd say this technique is really hard and inefficient to actually slow down. On shorter dynamic carves I guess it's at least doable to keep your speed under control, if it's steeper.

For the record, a slide doesn't need to have more friction than a carve. You also need to take into account for vectors and inertia. The edge holding you in the carve can be seen as deformation friction.

Personally, I'm a noob and I slide my turns when it gets too icy, bumpy or steep.


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## LALUNE (Feb 23, 2017)

Snowdaddy said:


> *Carves often turn into half sliding turns under pressure. *


Completely disagree on that.


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## neni (Dec 24, 2012)

Snowdaddy said:


> Carves often turn into half sliding turns under pressure.





LALUNE said:


> Completely disagree on that.


Hmmm... I don't.
Many times I turn my carves into slides.

I don't like "passive" carving (I mean with that that one just leans into a carve, waits, and follows the board's radius; and right, that way, carving kills speed). 

What I seek is the _acceleration_ out of the carve, the changing g force, i.e. manipulating the boards radius to load it up, and slingshot out of the apex. This needs to have just the right amount of force on the right part of the edge.

And it's easy to screw that "right". Like... on a too stiff board, it's very hard to find the right amount of speed which helps to compensate the lack of weight. Too little, and board won't bend into the radius the body is alingned to. The mal-alingmement results into slipping. Or on a too soft board, it's easy to overbend. Radius gets too small, body would be aligned to a slightly bigger radius: same result, cave is screwed. On a too short board OTHO it's easy to overpush the edge. Edge looses grip as too much force is applied and: you're slipping away on you're belly or butt.

So... I know plenty of ways to turn a carve into a slide. That's why SO keeps saying year by year, one day, you need to learn to _carve_ :laugh:

Just got a parcel with a new deck... and I'm positive I will slide quite many of my carves until I found her sweet spot.


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## Snowdaddy (Feb 2, 2018)

Just saying that in hard carves the board will push snow. To me, a carve is simply following the curve of the board/sidecut in a turn. Carves can be pencil fine and more "slide-ish". I don't see any distinct line between the carve and the sliding turn. At some point the carve turns into a sliding turn of course.

But that's just how I see it. I'm not claiming any expert opinion on this.


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## neni (Dec 24, 2012)

Snowdaddy said:


> Carves can be pencil fine and more "slide-ish". I don't see any distinct line between the carve and the sliding turn. At some point the carve turns into a sliding turn of course.
> 
> But that's just how I see it. I'm not claiming any expert opinion on this.


K, now that's wrong . Like that, I agree with Lalune... . There's no such thing as slide-ish carve. You can slide off while doing (screwing) a carve, but that means that you stopped carving at that point. If you slide, it's not carving. 

A carve is a specific type of turn, and by definition pencil lined. Period. Everything not pencil lined is not a carve, it's some sort of a turn, but no carve. No grey zone. Binary.


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## chomps1211 (Mar 30, 2011)

Snowdaddy said:


> Just saying that *in hard carves the board will push snow.* To me, a carve is simply following the curve of the board/sidecut in a turn. *Carves can be pencil fine and more "slide-ish"*. I don't see any distinct line between the carve and the sliding turn. At some point the carve turns into a sliding turn of course.
> 
> But that's just how I see it. I'm not claiming any expert opinion on this.


...unless you're flat basing straight down the fall line on hardpack? You board is pushing snow. 

...and the very definition of carving means NO sliding. You can throw some sliding turns in with your carves no problem!! 

But if you're _sliding_ you are *by definition*, _NOT_ carving!! :shrug:


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## Snowdaddy (Feb 2, 2018)

neni said:


> K, now that's wrong . Like that, I agree with Lalune... . There's no such thing as slide-ish carve. You can slide off while doing (screwing) a carve, but that means that you stopped carving at that point. If you slide, it's not carving.
> 
> A carve is a specific type of turn, and by definition pencil lined. Period. Everything not pencil lined is not a carve, it's some sort of a turn, but no carve. No grey zone. Binary.





chomps1211 said:


> ...unless you're flat basing straight down the fall line on hardpack? You board is pushing snow.
> 
> ...and the very definition of carving means NO sliding. You can throw some sliding turns in with your carves no problem!!
> 
> But if you're _sliding_ you are *by definition*, _NOT_ carving!! :shrug:


If it was binary a flake of spraying snow would make it an un-carve. A perfect carve is a pencil thin curve and an extreme/perfect skidded turn is straight line not following the sidecut or the edge.

When is it no longer a carve? 1 cm width? 2 cm width?

I'll back out of this though, since I'm not the carving police! 0


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## speedjason (May 2, 2013)

Aracan said:


> I never claimed carving was frictionless.
> What I do claim is: If I do turns of identical radii and stay in those turns for the same duration (passing the same segment of a circle), I will burn more speed if I slide through those turns than if I carve them.


Depending on snow condition.


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## neni (Dec 24, 2012)

Snowdaddy said:


> If it was binary a flake of spraying snow would make it an un-carve. A perfect carve is a pencil thin curve and an extreme/perfect skidded turn is straight line not following the sidecut or the edge.
> 
> When is it no longer a carve? 1 cm width? 2 cm width?
> 
> I'll back out of this though, since I'm not the carving police! 0


Depends on the snow condition. On hardpack?
As thin as the edge. Edge glides on surface, hardly cuts in. On soft snow? Bit wider as edge cuts into snow, is locked in and pushes soft snow away. But that's not sliding (you slide by lowering thr tilt); you're still locked into the rail. Then, the carve bed gets wider, but still leaves a sharp rim. A skid leaves a flat spreadout trace, like done with a spattle. It's rather about the sharpness of the bed than the width.

Btw: The flake of spraying you mention isn't an indicator for carve or not carve, skid or not skid; both can produce spray, amount depends on snowcondition, speed etc. The indicator of carve/not carve is the sharpness of the trace.


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## chomps1211 (Mar 30, 2011)

Snowdaddy said:


> If it was binary a flake of spraying snow would make it an un-carve. A perfect carve is a pencil thin curve and an extreme/perfect skidded turn is straight line not following the sidecut or the edge.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




:facepalm3:

Oh FFS!!! It isn't "binary!" It's fucking snowboarding. I can't carve worth a tinkers damn, but I still know the difference between being locked on edge and sliding. 

And while we're at it,... there is no "width" limit on a perfectly carved line. There are all kinds of variables that can & do effect the width of PERFECTLY carved trenches!!

That all depends on things like the hardness/softness as well as other snow conditions. The Weight of the rider,.. Also the width of the board being ridden and the angle of attack the rider used for locking on edge for the carve. 

All of that can cause the width of a carved trench to vary from an inch to maybe 4-8-10" wide or more. 

But a skidded turn track is INSTANTLY recognizable as a skid. 

At this point you're arguing ridiculous minutiae that would never apply in the real world. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Snowdaddy (Feb 2, 2018)

chomps1211 said:


> At this point you're arguing ridiculous minutiae that would never apply in the real world.


If you read back you will see I'm saying it's not binary and that a carve doesn't need to be perfect to be a carve. Because it's snowboarding and nothing is perfect in practice.


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## neni (Dec 24, 2012)

Snowdaddy said:


> If you read back you will see I'm saying it's not binary and that a carve doesn't need to be perfect to be a carve. Because it's snowboarding and nothing is perfect in practice.


The sharpness is binary. The width isn't. I was talking about sharpness using the term (chomps called it "perfectly carved trench"). You were asking width numbers. Width isn't binary. 

However, it's too late at night to go any further . Once you do your first carve, locked in, leaving a clear defined trench, you will understand immediately what we meant.


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## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

It's all neni's fault.


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## chomps1211 (Mar 30, 2011)

Snowdaddy said:


> If you read back you will see I'm saying it's not binary and that a carve doesn't need to be perfect to be a carve. Because it's snowboarding and nothing is perfect in practice.



That's not right either. I've seen riders carving *perfectly!!!*

Carving is carving, skidding is skidding! 

You wanna claim that *I'm* the one claiming it's "Binary?" Go ahead! That's a laboratory argument. Not a real world one!

I know what I meant and so does anyone who's ever actually successfully carved a line!! 
:thumbsup:

Good luck figuring it out! >
(...Im tappin outta dis bitch!!)


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## Snowdaddy (Feb 2, 2018)

chomps1211 said:


> That's not right either. I've seen riders carving *perfectly!!!*
> 
> Carving is carving, skidding is skidding!
> 
> ...


If you read back I never said that either... it's all neni's fault.

Btw, carving a line is so difficult because lines are straight. :deadhorse:


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## neni (Dec 24, 2012)

chomps1211 said:


> Carving is carving, skidding is skidding!
> 
> You wanna claim that *I'm* the one claiming it's "Binary?" Go ahead! That's a laboratory argument. Not a real world one!


No, I did. Yep, all my "fault", lol, I used a term some seem not to like. In my world, if something has such a clear definition as carving has opposed to skidding (won't repeat it, it's mentioned in former post enough), it has a binary state. I think you think the same, we just don't agree on the use of the term binary, lol. Alas. 
@Snowdaddy, go back and read back. Skip the one word binary, and you'll see, that chomps and my arguments are in concordance. Nitpicking on the use of the term binary won't change the opposition to "carving is bit of skidding"


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## Snow Hound (Jul 21, 2012)

We gots popo for every kinda shit in here!


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## neni (Dec 24, 2012)

F1EA said:


> It's all neni's fault.


Lol

10 char


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## Aracan (Nov 24, 2017)

Snowdaddy said:


> To me, a carve is simply following the curve of the board/sidecut in a turn.


Any carver worth their salt can carve turns of different radii on the same board (yes, even on a classic single-radius board). This is achieved by varying the amount of pressure and hence, the degree to which the board bends under the rider.


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## Snow Hound (Jul 21, 2012)

Snowdaddy said:


> To me, a carve is simply following the curve of the board/sidecut in a turn.


I was doing this in my first week on snow. 



Aracan said:


> Any carver worth their salt can carve turns of different radii on the same board (yes, even on a classic single-radius board). This is achieved by varying the amount of pressure and hence, the degree to which the board bends under the rider.


15 years later and I'm still working on this.


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## Snowdaddy (Feb 2, 2018)

Aracan said:


> Any carver worth their salt can carve turns of different radii on the same board (yes, even on a classic single-radius board). This is achieved by varying the amount of pressure and hence, the degree to which the board bends under the rider.


It's still following the sidecut. You Just changed its form.


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## Snowdaddy (Feb 2, 2018)

Snow Hound said:


> I was doing this in my first week on snow.
> 
> 
> 
> 15 years later and I'm still working on this.


I agree... just getting a board or skis on edge isn't rocket science. Getting it do do what you want is harder


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## Aracan (Nov 24, 2017)

Snowdaddy said:


> It's still following the sidecut. You Just changed its form.


"Carving simply means riding on the edge."
Yes.


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## Snowdaddy (Feb 2, 2018)

chomps1211 said:


> :facepalm3:
> 
> Oh FFS!!! It isn't "binary!" It's fucking snowboarding. I can't carve worth a tinkers damn, but I still know the difference between being locked on edge and sliding.
> 
> ...





neni said:


> No, I did. Yep, all my "fault", lol, I used a term some seem not to like. In my world, if something has such a clear definition as carving has opposed to skidding (won't repeat it, it's mentioned in former post enough), it has a binary state. I think you think the same, we just don't agree on the use of the term binary, lol. Alas.
> 
> @Snowdaddy, go back and read back. Skip the one word binary, and you'll see, that chomps and my arguments are in concordance. Nitpicking on the use of the term binary won't change the opposition to "carving is bit of skidding"


Well, the thing is that we were basically talking about friction and I only said there's such a thing as non-perfect conditions when a carve is not perfectly locked in on perfect snow conditions. Making it "slide-ish".. in quotation marks. Meaning the edge move perpendicular to the sidecut. Like in a sliding turn. Because slides also use the edge.

Then you guys said a carve is a carve, which I don't disagree with. But I still thought there was no such thing as a perfect line, and I asked how wide it can be for you guys to consider it a carve... because carves can be trenches and it's fucking snowboarding.

And I said there's no distinct line between carves a sliding turns because I said carves doesn't need to be perfect. That doesn't mean you can't tell most carves are carves and skidded turns are skidded turns. Which I also said.

So, maybe you are in concordance, but it seems like you're both saying things I never claimed. You're just nitpicking over the word "slide-ish".

So this is like the typical forum :swordfight:


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## Aracan (Nov 24, 2017)

The size of the trench left by two different carves can vary greatly depending on snow conditions and rider weight.
Still, a turn is either fully, cleanly carved or it is not. Also, the original discussion was about burning speed by carving vs. sliding. Saying that one can burn speed by a carved turn that is part sliding seems beside the point.


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## speedjason (May 2, 2013)

The widths of the carve lines doesn't really mean anything because in some cases the radii of the board can be different throughout the board. You will have a wider carve line when that happens, and you actually slow down when that happens because part of the board is actually scrubbing.
It happens a lot when you carve aggressively bending the board a lot.


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## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

Check this:


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## SlvrDragon50 (Mar 25, 2017)

Just finished a day at Jackson today, and my quads are on fire. Granted I did a long mogul run to finish the day, but my legs were dying after the hardpack groomers. Definitely feel myself bending my knees more especially since it was really bumpy today. Didn't really try to carve much because I was constantly doing sliding turns to bleed speed on the steeper terrain or I was worried about getting bucked over a bump.


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## Scalpelman (Dec 5, 2017)

Wait. Were you sliding in a binary fashion? That may have been the problem. 

Also what about Big Sky? It’s on my short list.


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## SlvrDragon50 (Mar 25, 2017)

Scalpelman said:


> Wait. Were you sliding in a binary fashion? That may have been the problem.
> 
> Also what about Big Sky? It’s on my short list.


Big Sky has been sweet! Unfortunately zero snow during my stay here, but the green runs are awesome from practicing carves. They're so wide, and there's no one here. Definitely getting a feel for really bending my knees. I bet this place is amazing with powder though. I'll get my friend to take a video for me tomorrow, but I managed to catch a cold yesterday so feeling a little fatigued. I am struggling a bit digging in the edge on my toe side, but I think it's because my boot liner is breaking in too much, and I am getting a tiny bit of heel lift. Occasionally I was sliding out a bit, but I know there were some moments where I was avoiding skidded turns.


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