# Where are boards made?



## BurtonAvenger (Aug 14, 2007)

Factories. The answer you want is factories.


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## speedjason (May 2, 2013)

My Salomon is made in China.


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## Loftness (Feb 19, 2014)

BurtonAvenger said:


> Factories. The answer you want is factories.


:eusa_clap:


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## freshy (Nov 18, 2009)

Mervin makes Lib, Gnu and Roxy in the states, Never Summer is also made in the USA. I don't really care about any other brands made by ski companies or made in China boards.


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## speedjason (May 2, 2013)

freshy said:


> I don't really care about any other brands made by ski companies or made in China boards.



But my Villain is SWEEEEEEEEEEET.


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## Big Foot (Jan 15, 2013)

My Elan is made in Austria. I really like buying things that aren't made in China, because fuck China that's why.


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## poutanen (Dec 22, 2011)

Whistler - Prior

Colorado - Donek

Germany - Virus, Volkl

Switzerland - Kessler, Nidecker, Oxess

China - 95% of the rest of the boards out there...

That said, I don't know what the hard on about locally made boards is. If they made cell phones in the USA would you buy one? I wouldn't, it'd be a hunk of crap...


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## Loftness (Feb 19, 2014)

Appreciate the posts so far. 

Not looking to start a country (China) bashing session...check that stuff at the door.

NeverSummer has their own facility I think? At least one other board company uses their place as well I believe?


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## Joe77 (Feb 7, 2013)

Capita is Austria.


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## Bones (Feb 24, 2008)

freshy said:


> Mervin makes Lib, Gnu and Roxy in the states, Never Summer is also made in the USA. I don't really care about any other brands made by ski companies or made in China boards.


I've never understood the "Made in America" argument. It hasn't helped your economy to any great degree and American-built products aren't any better or worse quality on average.

Your economy would be better off if you just bought the best value and spent your savings in your home town. Companies that produce crap and can only sell it by slapping on a Made in America sticker would go under and good companies selling good product would benefit from the decreased competition (like Never Summer)


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## slowandlow (Oct 12, 2011)

Smokin - Tahoe


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## Bgsmith9 (Oct 1, 2013)

Signal makes their boards in California.


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## CassMT (Mar 14, 2013)

Notice - right here in lil ole WF


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## SkullAndXbones (Feb 24, 2014)

we don't think they're better because they're made here. it's more of an american pride thing. so many of our products (not just snowboards) these days are made in china and other countries. it also gives people jobs here in the US. that said, i'd much rather buy a good product from a company that has their stuff made overseas then a shit product made here in the US. but it just so happens that mervin and never summer make good products. by the way i ride a Rome (an american company out of vermont) and their boards are made in austria lol.


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## scottb7 (Nov 19, 2012)

My Rome board came with a sticker that said made in china.


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## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

Stepchild - Austria

How the hell they are able to keep prices reasonable, being from expensive as fk Vancouver... beats me.

I dont get the made in america thing either....... Seems americans prefer having the minnimum wage jobs rather than the actual companies making the profit at home. Because, seriously, the money is not made in manufacturing labour.


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## snowklinger (Aug 30, 2011)

ETM's house.


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## ETM (Aug 11, 2009)

^^^^Haha yeah my house. 
I think of a design and 2 days later its reality. 

Like this


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## SkullAndXbones (Feb 24, 2014)

scottb7 said:


> My Rome board came with a sticker that said made in china.


mine says austria. i guess they have multiple locations


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## Loftness (Feb 19, 2014)

ETM said:


> ^^^^Haha yeah my house.
> I think of a design and 2 days later its reality.
> 
> Like this


Nice! Need a winter roommate??


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## cav0011 (Jan 4, 2009)

Many companies use more than one factory


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## Madbob14 (Feb 28, 2013)

My rossignol was made in spain!


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## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

Venture - Silverton, CO


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## freshy (Nov 18, 2009)

Bones said:


> I've never understood the "Made in America" argument. It hasn't helped your economy to any great degree and American-built products aren't any better or worse quality on average.


It's not so much the made in America thing that I like about companies like Lib and NS but the fact that it's snowboarders (and skaters and surfers) making boards for snowboarders.
And I would rather support the companies who have been with snowboarding from the beginning instead of the ones who got on board because their ski sales were falling to boards. And made in China crap is just crap IMO.


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## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

Bones said:


> I've never understood the "Made in America" argument. It hasn't helped your economy to any great degree and American-built products aren't any better or worse quality on average.
> 
> Your economy would be better off if you just bought the best value and spent your savings in your home town. Companies that produce crap and can only sell it by slapping on a Made in America sticker would go under and good companies selling good product would benefit from the decreased competition (like Never Summer)


Thank you Mr. Economist.

Meanwhile...


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## BurtonAvenger (Aug 14, 2007)

U.S. Factories. 

Monson - Little brands 99% of you have never heard of. UT 
Rev- Zoo York and little brands you've never heard of SLC UT
Signal - Huntington Beach CA
Mervin - Lib, Gnu, and some Roxy -Squim WA
Smokin - Also makes GPB and Bluebird Sparks NV
Never Summer - D-Day snowboards, High Society, Denver CO
Unity- Silverthorne CO
Venture- Silverton CO
Prior - Whistler CA
Homewood- Bradford PA
Prospect - Wi-Me Snowboards and their brand. 
Shaggy Cooper Skis - Echelon Snowboards MI
MarHar Snowboards- Grand Rapids MI
Ramp Sports - PC UT
Trapper - Revelstoke CA
Magine - Nova Scotia CA

Companies that don't make production boards but still have factories in the U.S.
Ride, K2, and Burton. 

C4 Future Factory (Capita) Austria. Dinosaurs Will Die, Bataleon/Lobster (since moved), Amplid, I think they do Volkl as well. 

GST Slovenia - Some Rome, Niche, some Flow, APO, Yes, Jones, NDK

Taiwan - Some Rome, Some Burton, Some Flow, Some Salomon, 

Playmaker - Nitro, Thrive, Rossignol

Yaqui (China) - Zion, Monument, Gentem stick, and a few others you've never heard of. 

K2/Ride - Own factory
Burton - Most comes from independently owned/financed factories. 

If I really felt like I gave a shit I would give more but since I don't that's the run down. 

American made is a crock of shit that's basically saying "hey we got you a minimum wage job that's a dead end" vs " hey we need you to learn these programs outsource the labor to country x and run this brand for us". Personally I'd rather run a brand than be the grunt. Also these "american" jobs are usually filled with day laborers or illegals because if you've ever worked in a factory you would know how much it fucking sucks.

If you understand actual quality and not perceived quality you would know that very few American companies actually have good fiber glass, epoxy, and construction methods. A lot of companies are making heavy dead boards based off tech from the 1990's. News flash that was 20 years ago. Would you want to use a computer, phone, video game system, or car from that long ago. 

On principal there are very few American made snowboards that can rival anything coming from Europe or China. China has us beat with technology, materials, and the skilled labor force. Cry all you want and bemoan it but it's the fucking truth and as you try to write some retort look at the machine you're using and ask yourself where it was built. 

To sum it up snowboards are built in factories. Some factories are good and some suck. You don't need a snowboarder to build a snowboard you need one to design it, you need a factory worker to make it.


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## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

BurtonAvenger said:


> MarHar Snowboards- Grand Rapids MI


I don't think I've ever heard a bad word about these guys and their boards. Their location sucks and probably hurts their visibility within the broader snowboarding community.


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## BurtonAvenger (Aug 14, 2007)

linvillegorge said:


> I don't think I've ever heard a bad word about these guys and their boards. Their location sucks and probably hurts their visibility within the broader snowboarding community.


I just rode the 2015 Archaic today. God their boards are just so well built and fun. Little on the heavy side. 

I'm stoked they went to SIA this year for the Craft Booth thing with all the small brands. While all those little brands were sucking those guys networked their asses off and left with 50 plus new contacts and expect to grow their business by 50%. 

They're also getting away from marketing themselves as a Michigan brand. The U.S. built thing is in their marketing but not their focal point they're using their tech story and personable approach. Honestly a lot of companies could learn a thing or two from Josh and Nate those guys are doing it right.


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## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

Burton Avenger knows exactly whatsup. And that's why i pay absolutely 0 attention to where stuff is made.

The money is at the corporate headquarters. Not at the factory lines. 

Now what americans should want is better distribution of all that $$ big corporations make; but then that becomes some sorta socialism... and americans have always hated that, or actually, they were made believe they should hate that. Guess by whom? tadaaaa.... the big corporations running your politics, politicians and military.

But... People should ask Norwegians if it works  and while at it, ask them how much stuff they use is "made in Norway" and if they care......


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## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

F1EA said:


> The money is at the corporate headquarters. Not at the factory lines.


Hence why we have an ever growing lopsided wealth distribution here in America. All the money is at HQ and they're making the decisions to pay Chinese laborers $15/day instead of American laborers $15/hour. Their bank accounts are growing by leaps and bounds, meanwhile non-1%er wages have been stagnant as inflation drives up the cost of living. I don't mean to get off on a social/economic tangent, but it's a sore spot of mine. We're becoming the land of the haves and have nots.


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## Bones (Feb 24, 2008)

linvillegorge said:


> Thank you Mr. Economist.
> 
> Meanwhile...


What's your point? Because that graph proves my point: "Made In America" does nothing for the American economy or the manufacturing sector. It merely props up noncompetitive companies making noncompetitive products.

It makes no difference to a company like Never Summer (who I'll use as an example of an American company who builds good value into their products) no good if a crap American company producing poor value gets this artificial support from their American built sticker or if that competitor is some sweatshop in China.

I agree with you about the growing wealth split, but "Buy American" isn't the solution. The best you can hope for with that is to bring those call centre and sweatshop jobs back here so that Americans can get paid $15\day instead of some foreign worker.


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## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

linvillegorge said:


> Hence why we have an ever growing lopsided wealth distribution here in America. All the money is at HQ and they're making the decisions to pay Chinese laborers $15/day instead of American laborers $15/hour. Their bank accounts are growing by leaps and bounds, meanwhile non-1%er wages have been stagnant as inflation drives up the cost of living. I don't mean to get off on a social/economic tangent, but it's a sore spot of mine. We're becoming the land of the haves and have nots.


LOL that's sort of what i meant... what you should want is better distribution of the $, not necessarilly the "made in America" tag. But again, the BS politicians fool everyone into thinking what you actually want is US labour. BS, that is.


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## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

Bones said:


> What's your point? Because that graph proves my point: "Made In America" does nothing for the American economy or the manufacturing sector. It merely props up noncompetitive companies making noncompetitive products.
> 
> It makes no difference to a company like Never Summer (who I'll use as an example of an American company who builds good value into their products) no good if a crap American company producing poor value gets this artificial support from their American built sticker or if that competitor is some sweatshop in China.


You're not understanding what I'm saying. You're looking at it through the lens of a snowboarding manufacturer. I'm looking at it through the lens of the economy as a whole. Manufacturing jobs have plummeted in America and those jobs have either disappeared or been replaced by service related jobs - the same jobs that are most impacted by discretionary spending which is the first spending to get cut when households have to make budget choices. As wages have stagnated and cost of living prices have increased, discretionary spending gets crunched and that's the spending that those jobs rely upon. Manufacturing jobs used to be a backbone of our economy and those jobs have all but been eliminated. I fear our current "recovery" is just another bubble waiting to pop.


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## ZeMax (Feb 21, 2014)

Coiler - Ontario, Canada


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## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

Anyone mention OZ Snowboards yet? Pretty sure they started here in Evergreen and now they're down in Arvada or Lakewood. Somewhere in the western metro area. That pretty much concludes my knowledge of OZ Snowboards. :laugh:


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## BurtonAvenger (Aug 14, 2007)

Oz the brand that believes the big companies are ripping him off and out to steal his "ideas". Guys a kook, honestly thought he was out of business.


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## aregulargoof (Feb 18, 2014)

My Arbor board was made in Dubai of all places. I found that pretty bizarre.


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## Bones (Feb 24, 2008)

linvillegorge said:


> I'm looking at it through the lens of the economy as a whole. Manufacturing jobs have plummeted in America and those jobs have either disappeared or been replaced by service related jobs


Actually, I'm just using the snowboard industry as an example.

American manufacturing lost its competitive edge in the late 70's. The battle that the American auto industry lost (in large part to the Japanese) was offset by the rise of the American technology industry. But even that industry is now being eclipsed by other nations and this time there doesn't appear to be another manufacturing industry ready to replace it. Sadly, there just aren't that many products that need a $50,000/year semi-skilled worker to produce.

America used to be one of the most innovative, entreprenerial R&D nations in the world, it could change with the times, it could re-invent itself as needed. No offense, but I think that title has been passed to other nations. The race for space spun off a lot of innovation in the 60's, maybe it is time to go back to space?


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## realevergreen (Jan 12, 2013)

*where made*



Bones said:


> What's your point? Because that graph proves my point: "Made In America" does nothing for the American economy or the manufacturing sector. It merely props up noncompetitive companies making noncompetitive products.
> 
> It makes no difference to a company like Never Summer (who I'll use as an example of an American company who builds good value into their products) no good if a crap American company producing poor value gets this artificial support from their American built sticker or if that competitor is some sweatshop in China.
> 
> I agree with you about the growing wealth split, but "Buy American" isn't the solution. The best you can hope for with that is to bring those call centre and sweatshop jobs back here so that Americans can get paid $15\day instead of some foreign worker.


We need American made products or you would've been speaking something else since about 1945. If Far Eastern companies make all the cameras and cars and everything else, we can only make excuses. And excuses don't pay taxes or bills. Won't work. The guy in the white house doesn't get it as he piles on more regulations and taxes. He never made anything but trouble.


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## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

Bones said:


> Actually, I'm just using the snowboard industry as an example.
> 
> American manufacturing lost its competitive edge in the late 70's. The battle that the American auto industry lost (in large part to the Japanese) was offset by the rise of the American technology industry. But even that industry is now being eclipsed by other nations and this time there doesn't appear to be another manufacturing industry ready to replace it. Sadly, there just aren't that many products that need a $50,000/year semi-skilled worker to produce.
> 
> America used to be one of the most innovative, entreprenerial R&D nations in the world, it could change with the times, it could re-invent itself as needed. No offense, but I think that title has been passed to other nations. The race for space spun off a lot of innovation in the 60's, maybe it is time to go back to space?


What other nations might that be? Europe is in worse shape than we are and Asia completely relies on the American consumer market. America is the national equivalent of the "too big to fail" story we got sold on our banking industry. If America crumbles, we take the world's economy with us.


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## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

BurtonAvenger said:


> Oz the brand that believes the big companies are ripping him off and out to steal his "ideas". Guys a kook, honestly thought he was out of business.


Hell, they may be as far as I know. They'd only been around a couple of years, right? What amazing technological innovations did he come up with that the big guys just had to steal?


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## BurtonAvenger (Aug 14, 2007)

realevergreen said:


> We need American made products or you would've been speaking something else since about 1945. If Far Eastern companies make all the cameras and cars and everything else, we can only make excuses. And excuses don't pay taxes or bills. Won't work. The guy in the white house doesn't get it as he piles on more regulations and taxes. He never made anything but trouble.


I see someone just joined to post in this thread.

You know what we need? Affordable well built products. That's what we need. 

Cost is a big issue and if someone can get a board built in China that retails for $330 that rides as good if not better than an American made board that retails for over $500 then why would they pay more. 

As I mentioned the American made = higher quality is a crock of shit. 

Most companies are using glass that rips, tears, and cracks. Crown Plastics? Yeah that shit sucks use ISO it's better, but oh it costs more. 

The myth that the boards are hand built? News flash all snowboards are hand built on some level. They are then pressed by heavy presses with heating units that bake them to make them into a glued together product. 

Here's what's bullshit with the American hand built ideology. RA RA AMERICA: yet uses inferior materials and old technology. 

Claims boards are hand built. Yet I'm pretty sure the people aren't clamping them together with their hands till they dry, they're going in a press and setting. Which news flash is the exact same as EVERY OTHER FUCKING SNOWBOARD FACTORY ON THIS PLANET! 

Built by snowboarders. Cool you hired someone that rides a snowboard. I mean does the auto industry say "built by drivers" because oh shit I need someone that drives a car to build my cars. Who gives a fuck if they snowboard or not I want a skilled worker that knows their task and makes it happen. 

Creating jobs. Sometimes they hire Americans and sometimes they hire immigrants. Those jobs suck and are back breaking labor so you get what you get. 

China pays slave wages. News flash some factories do but it's gotten to the point there that workers have realized if they don't like it they just leave and go to the next factory down the block and get a job. The cost of living is lower there so while some people might balk at them making a dollar an hour because the minimum wage is different here, it's a relative issue. 

Every time this topic gets brought up it slides off into the socio economic landscape of despair and political debate. AS I'VE SAID BEFORE SNOWBOARDS ARE MADE IN FACTORIES, BY FACTORY WORKERS, USING BIG FUCKING MACHINES.


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## BurtonAvenger (Aug 14, 2007)

linvillegorge said:


> Hell, they may be as far as I know. They'd only been around a couple of years, right? What amazing technological innovations did he come up with that the big guys just had to steal?


He thought Arbor ripped off his wood grain topsheets. Because you know Arbor never ever used wood grain before. 

As far as tech goes the guy was an idiot and promoting his boards as having materials that have patented technology names. Something he could get sued for and was really butt hurt when I pointed that out to him.


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## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

BurtonAvenger said:


> He thought Arbor ripped off his wood grain topsheets. Because you know Arbor never ever used wood grain before.
> 
> As far as tech goes the guy was an idiot and promoting his boards as having materials that have patented technology names. Something he could get sued for and was really butt hurt when I pointed that out to him.


Wow. If this is true, dude really is an idiot. :laugh:


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## Donutz (May 12, 2010)

This is getting too close to a political debate, especially with dumbass back there taking a political cheap shot with his first post. Kick it back inbounds guys.


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## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

Donutz said:


> This is getting too close to a political debate, especially with dumbass back there taking a political cheap shot with his first post. Kick it back inbounds guys.


:laugh:

:thumbsup:


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## BurtonAvenger (Aug 14, 2007)

FACTORIES. THEY'RE MADE IN FACTORIES. Is that back in bounds? I try to avoid the stupid political shit. Or is it time for guys in yoga pants?


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## Bones (Feb 24, 2008)

Just buy good quality for a fair price and the whole snow sports industry will benefit. Buy crap and they'll just make more crap, buy cheap and they'll cut corners to make them cheap. If China can't compete on quality, then fine.


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## campfortune (Apr 22, 2008)

Bones said:


> I've never understood the "Made in America" argument. It hasn't helped your economy to any great degree and American-built products aren't any better or worse quality on average.
> 
> Your economy would be better off if you just bought the best value and spent your savings in your home town. Companies that produce crap and can only sell it by slapping on a Made in America sticker would go under and good companies selling good product would benefit from the decreased competition (like Never Summer)


:thumbsup:


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## campfortune (Apr 22, 2008)

Big Foot said:


> My Elan is made in Austria. I really like buying things that aren't made in China, because fuck China that's why.


why the hate? coz China fucked you up?

if you have to hate, hate the greedy u.s corporations. Chinese workers are just greedy U.S slaves.
If no China, they will make it anywhere else that's cheaper. not made in China doesn't solve your problem. stupid!


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## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

I'm glad the proud citizens of economically lesser countries are telling us what's best for our economy. Last I checked, even in our current recessed state, we're still accounting for a third of the global GDP.

And with that, I'm done with the political bullshit. I promise.


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## BoardChitless (Mar 11, 2013)

BurtonAvenger said:


> U.S. Factories.
> 
> Monson - Little brands 99% of you have never heard of. UT
> Rev- Zoo York and little brands you've never heard of SLC UT
> ...


Spot on sir... to add, I think someone was wondering the other week if there any Made in USA bindings some threads ago, and I know just the split binding co, Karakoram is one or the only in the U.S. But, it's just for split boards.

Also, SWS factory in Dubai manu's Arbor now, and possibly SBF in China is taking over the Yeah for it! brands like Bataleon I've heard rumored. Nidecker makes some Jones still as well as GST. I know this new "C4" brand is the old Elan factory, and that is where Capita leased the factory for the first time under the old Elan addy this past summer with the old CEO as well, now the factory co is called C4future GmbH. Wondering if they will be a leader soon if all goes well, and start other branding co's???

Like cav0011 said many brands use different facilities from around the world just still smacking the same label. Burton does this well past couple years especially.


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## Bones (Feb 24, 2008)

linvillegorge said:


> I'm glad the proud citizens of economically lesser countries are telling us what's best for our economy. Last I checked, even in our current recessed state, we're still accounting for a third of the global GDP.


Sorry, my bad...didn't realize that it's all under control.:icon_scratch:


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## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)




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## tonicusa (Feb 27, 2008)

A lot of factories can make a really great board if they decide from a P&L standpoint that it makes sense. And often for some of these high end boards they will use their best tech. I've owned a bunch of these over the years but it doesn't always mean you will like the way they ride. 

I'm really impressed with the build quality and most importantly the ride of my 2014 Lib Darker. And just for the record China didn't get a bad rep for no reason. Often it was the brands cutting corners but also compounded problems from inexperienced factories. One of the worst boards I've ever owned was the Salomon Official from 2010. It was like a cheap Sims board from Sports Authority. SWS will probably do well because George Cant and John Colvin actually know how to design and build functional snowboards. That's as important as quality of epoxy and cores.


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## Loftness (Feb 19, 2014)

This went a lot deeper than I intended (but threads like this always do I guess). I appreciate the responses though, and the deeper insight as well. I was really only curious about the countries companies are using to make boards, not so much the reasons why.


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## Bones (Feb 24, 2008)

linvillegorge said:


> I'm glad the proud citizens of economically lesser countries are telling us what's best for our economy. Last I checked, even in our current recessed state, we're still accounting for a third of the global GDP.


Yes, 1% of your country account for a lot of the global GDP 

On a GDP per capita basis, you're 10th - 14th and falling.


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## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

Eh nevermind.

Boards are made in factories. And some basements.


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## Big Foot (Jan 15, 2013)

Bones said:


> Yes, 1% of your country account for a lot of the global GDP
> 
> On a GDP per capita basis, you're 10th - 14th and falling.


But we are allowed to own guns! PEW PEW PEW!


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## ItchEtrigR (Jan 1, 2012)

What i wanna know is where are yoga pants made...


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## poutanen (Dec 22, 2011)

ItchEtrigR said:


> What i wanna know is where are yoga pants made...


Canada! Wait, no, that's where they were invented...


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## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

ItchEtrigR said:


> What i wanna know is where are yoga pants made...


heaven or hell, depending upon the wearer


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## Big Foot (Jan 15, 2013)

linvillegorge said:


> heaven or hell, depending upon the wearer


They should set a maximum size restriction on the production of yoga pants to prevent the latter.


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## freshy (Nov 18, 2009)

Big Foot said:


> They should set a maximum size restriction on the production of yoga pants to prevent the latter.


LOL so true!


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## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

It wouldn't prevent shit. Fatties would just squeeze their asses into ever smaller sizes. This would also introduce the potential for a terrifying catastrophic failure resulting in way more than you'd ever want to see.


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## ItchEtrigR (Jan 1, 2012)

now that the thread is back on track which manufacturer is producing all those generic snowboards? like coca cola, pepsi, other odd companies...

Ive seen a few saying made in Austria so Im guessing Elan/Capita or whatever is going on there...


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## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

ItchEtrigR said:


> now that the thread is back on track which manufacturer is producing all those generic snowboards? like coca cola, pepsi, other odd companies...
> 
> Ive seen a few saying made in Austria so Im guessing Elan/Capita or whatever is going on there...


There's no one company. Most brands that want a promo board just work out a partnership with a board company. I know Never Summer used to make the Coors promo boards.


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## ItchEtrigR (Jan 1, 2012)

linvillegorge said:


> There's no one company. Most brands that want a promo board just work out a partnership with a board company. I know Never Summer used to make the Coors promo boards.


Good to know, so I'm thinking bottom of the line board, poplar, biax, metal edges and extruded base. Or do they model these from an existing line?


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## BurtonAvenger (Aug 14, 2007)

ItchEtrigR said:


> Good to know, so I'm thinking bottom of the line board, poplar, biax, metal edges and extruded base. Or do they model these from an existing line?


Really depends on the company. Some are pure crap. Others are existing models with different graphics. I've had Labatts boards that were built by K2 that were Darkstars.


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