# Is Snowboarding Making a Comeback?



## tonicusa (Feb 27, 2008)

It seems just a while ago (5 years?) the bottom was dropping out of snowboarding. Independent shops were going under right & left, small brands were disappearing overnight, and a lot of pro riders were quitting to get mainstream jobs. The magazines were struggling, everything looked hurting. 

I was given the December issue of Snow Board magazine and its printed on great paper stock and the quality of the ads and photography looks like something out of a design annual. I was shocked. Everybody has a slicker more sophisticated ad spread than I've ever seen. The sophistication of some of the marketing from these small brands is noticeable. 

What's going on? Is snowboarding making a comeback? Or are people and small startups more savvy and sophisticated than ever in graphic design, branding and production? Or are all of these brands now owned by a few behemoth conglomerates?

Any way it's nice to see snowboarding back on the leading edge of style, design, and personal expression. Blah blah boohya


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## nillo (Dec 18, 2013)

Hmm, I remember something happening like 5 years ago. oh right a major economic collapse. I'm guessing that and the subsequent recovery, such as it is, is mainly responsible for what you are seeing.

The numbers are still not what they were.


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## lab49232 (Sep 13, 2011)

What do you do to battle a declining brand, market the hell out of it. Remember what Burton, the supreme overlord of the snowboarding industry, did last year shutting down a third of it's company... It is shrinking but not in a bad way. It had grown to big for all the companies to be sustainable and as mentioned above its become too expensive, especially with the economy. It's cyclical and not going anywhere. It's not growing but rest assured it isn't going anywhere either.


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## Hank Scorpio (Oct 3, 2013)

lab49232 said:


> What do you do to battle a declining brand, market the hell out of it. Remember what Burton, the supreme overlord of the snowboarding industry, did last year shutting down a third of it's company... It is shrinking but not in a bad way. It had grown to big for all the companies to be sustainable and as mentioned above its become too expensive, especially with the economy. *It's cyclical and not going anywhere. It's not growing but rest assured it isn't going anywhere either.*


Ummmm....

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/13/us/climate-change-threatens-ski-industrys-livelihood.html


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## lab49232 (Sep 13, 2011)

Hank Scorpio said:


> Ummmm....
> 
> http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/13/us/climate-change-threatens-ski-industrys-livelihood.html


Umm I grew up riding in the NE and snow has never *not* been spotty there in November, in fact any resort open in November is AHEAD of schedule, and Colorado is having one of it's best season on record. This has nothing to do with the industry. A shitty wanna be global warming article that means nothing. Don't get me wrong, I'm not arguing against global warming but A: this is a crazy inaccurately written piece, and B: Has nothing to do with this thread. 

PS. I have been studying global warming and the environment for years, please don't post poorly written articles like this for no reason, they are bull shit. There are plenty of great, well written articles without made up facts that talk about global warming danger. We need to care for the environment but not at the risk of fake propaganda pieces.These mass medias attempts to get the uniformed public to overreact and respond to their news are a disgrace to real journalists and scientists everywhere.


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## tonicusa (Feb 27, 2008)

Yeah I had the feeling that the "well financed and strong" are just really dialing in their game now, bringing everything they got to pull what dollars out of the market exist. It actually seems like in all reality it would be much harder for a startup to break in today and gain market share than ever before. Seems like the big boys have their "A game" on just to maintain market share. I was wondering if that was the case or if everybody was just more sophisticated and focused with their marketing efforts today. This December Snowboard Mag was the slickest I've seen in my lifetime, and I used to work in that industry, so I can see the level of production and work exhibited in it. Someone must be making returns. Glad to see it!


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## Hank Scorpio (Oct 3, 2013)

lab49232 said:


> Umm I grew up riding in the NE and snow has never *not* been spotty there in November, in fact any resort open in November is AHEAD of schedule, and Colorado is having one of it's best season on record. This has nothing to do with the industry. A shitty wanna be global warming article that means nothing. Don't get me wrong, I'm not arguing against global warming but A: this is a crazy inaccurately written piece, and B: Has nothing to do with this thread.
> 
> PS. I have been studying global warming and the environment for years, please don't post poorly written articles like this for no reason, they are bull shit. There are plenty of great, well written articles without made up facts that talk about global warming danger. We need to care for the environment but not at the risk of fake propaganda pieces.These mass medias attempts to get the uniformed public to overreact and respond to their news are a disgrace to real journalists and scientists everywhere.


Lol. Just Lol.


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## Argo (Feb 25, 2010)

Well, I know a few brands that are having pretty amazing years. One has been around a while and is now selling out of most of their boards where over the past few years that was unheard of....


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## BurtonAvenger (Aug 14, 2007)

I want to know where the idea CO is having one of its best seasons on record came from. We're having an average season at best. I can go take some pics of Breck tomorrow if I feel to be bothered that will show a different interpretation of what you believe this "record" year is looking like. Sure we got 7 feet of snow from the 1st to the 15th and now we're just baking in the sun with a lot of it being windswept as well. 

Snowfall directly effects the snowboard industry. The last three years have raped the industry in ways most people won't notice unless they actually work in it. 

All one has to do is look at California right now and see how bad off Tahoe, Mammoth, and the Sierras in general are. Europe isn't fairing too well either. How do you think that's going to help the industry? It's not we're going to have more backstock sitting around, shops grey marketing, and a slew of other problems. 

But to go back to the original points. Snowboarding is not making a comeback, it's numbers are not increasing. What you're seeing is the aftermath of the culling of the herd. Bigger brands have downsized, closed off divisions, sold brands, etc. etc. This has allowed for a gap window for smaller brands to come in. Are all these smaller brands good? No, most of them are catalog brands that went to a factory, pulled some specs, and slapped their graphics on the board all while shoving "putting the fun back in snowboarding" or "by snowboarders for snowboarder" and then the pinnacle of greatness in marketing "hand made" sometimes in the U.S. sometimes not down peoples throats. Three severely repackaged marketing tactics that most people won't see through because they want something "new" when in fact it's the exact same board as 10 other companies minus the graphics.

Every year there are tons of new brands that try to enter the marketplace, some have mediocre success and occasionally some hit lightening in a bottle. Still I ask anyone that pays attention to this, where are these brands at the year 5 phase of their business? Most are gone, dwindling, or being sold off to be bastardized and used as a pricepoint brand. 

You want to talk about snowboardings comeback, then look at the SIA floor map. How many empty booths do you count on that interactive map? I gave up counting after 20. They claim visitation numbers to the show are up and that they're turning away brands due to a lack of space.

Seeing numbers from OEM factories about the amount of units produced is rather hilarious too. Company x claims they're making 10k units in the factory, real number is somewhere about 10% of that. Why? No one is buying. 

The cold harsh truth of it is that free skiing is cooler amongst kids and they're taking to that. Snowboarding is still marketing to the 22 and under crowd on a percentage level it shouldn't while the biggest age demographic with the most expendable income has moved on from snowboarding to other interests because it isn't being marketed towards them. The teens to early 20 somethings from the mid to late 90's and early 2000's have moved on to start families and careers. They are that generation gap that is gone and that will hopefully one day come back when it allows. 

You want to see snowboarding make a comeback then do your part to help the environment, do your part to support companies that actually support snowboarding, same thing with shops, same thing with the snow media, and above all else get as many people as possible hooked on the idea of snowboarding. Then, maybe then, we'll see a comeback.


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## MarshallV82 (Apr 6, 2011)

I've been in Canada but when I went back to Colorado for the Holidays it didn't seem much better than the last few years at this time.
:dunno:


I think it was because life sucked in 2008 for most people. We can afford to have fun again!


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## Argo (Feb 25, 2010)

Great post BA. Maybe one of your best..... Other companies downsizing or falling off are likely leading to others success that I was talking about.


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## tonicusa (Feb 27, 2008)

I sensed there was this "culling of the herd going on", but I am amazed at the amount of technological advancements the big companies keep putting into gear. I remember the old days when it was the same old shit year to year and I often wonder how companies can afford to keep innovating and investing when it seems the economy and snowboard market have been contracting.


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## BurtonAvenger (Aug 14, 2007)

tonicusa said:


> I sensed there was this "culling of the herd going on", but I am amazed at the amount of technological advancements the big companies keep putting into gear. I remember the old days when it was the same old shit year to year and I often wonder how companies can afford to keep innovating and investing when it seems the economy and snowboard market have been contracting.


You want to know how. Fire all senior designers or drop them down to "paid consultants". Hire some kid straight out of college or that's working for some rinky dink little company that got some minor press and understands mechanical engineering to a degree. Offer them more than they're making at their 10 dollars an hour shop/coffee house job. 

Or better yet offer an "Internship" and sell them on the idea of creating an idea for them might lead to a job down the road. I stress the MIGHT part. 

You look at some of these mega conglomerates and if you read the financial news on them, they own the bank because of the capital they have tied up. So of course they can refinance, renegotiate, etc. etc. Whatever it takes to keep the bank afloat as there won't be a bail out for them. 

If people actually knew about some of the ideas the best board designers in the world have come up with 10 years ago but the powers that be were afraid to do them, it would blow your minds.


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## stickz (Feb 6, 2013)

BurtonAvenger said:


> I want to know where the idea CO is having one of its best seasons on record came from. We're having an average season at best. I can go take some pics of Breck tomorrow if I feel to be bothered that will show a different interpretation of what you believe this "record" year is looking like. Sure we got 7 feet of snow from the 1st to the 15th and now we're just baking in the sun with a lot of it being windswept as well.
> 
> Snowfall directly effects the snowboard industry. The last three years have raped the industry in ways most people won't notice unless they actually work in it.
> 
> ...


this is the best written post I've ever read on any forum. well done sir


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## irrballsac (Dec 31, 2011)

Hank Scorpio said:


> Ummmm....
> 
> http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/13/us/climate-change-threatens-ski-industrys-livelihood.html


Never mind the fact that this article was written in dec. of 2012? Link newer articles please.


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## KansasNoob (Feb 24, 2013)

What kind of ideas BA?

I've only been on the snow 2 very short seasons and it seems to me that a few brands are really prospering. Others not so much. What matters to me is that lifts keep rolling. Without that I never would have been introduced to it. 2 years ago I didn't know the first thing about snowboarding. But being able to get up to the mountains and just be there hooked me. My ass was so sore I couldn't do sit-ups for 2 weeks after my first 2 days of falling on Easter slush at Wolf. But I didn't care. I don't care that I can't go YOLOcrew or whatever at Padre because I get to be in the mountains for a few awesome days every year. Most people don't understand how much it means to me. They prolly think I just go to Colorado to get grass. Whatever. It gets better every time I go. I can't be the only one. I think there will always be people to sell gear to, however small the market is.


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## stickz (Feb 6, 2013)

holy shit did you just refer to weed as grass? that's so awesome? I've also only been snowboarding for 2 yrs. 40 days total now. I can easily say it has completely changed my life. I've never felt more at peace as I do when I'm at the mtn. I've also never challenged myself as much or been as dedicated to learning a sport. I could give a shit if the lifts run. I'd hike all day with a splitboard. I can literally never stop now.


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## killclimbz (Aug 10, 2007)

Great post BA and dead on. I don't get why snowboarding is dead set on marketing to the 20 year old. The group with the least amount of disposable income. Not to knock any 20 year olds, but they will find the cheapest way to get what they want or they just won't buy. 

Funny that splitboard related gear is booming. Something that is marketed to people 30 and up and it is by far the most expensive gear in snowboarding. Guys like Spark and Venture are killing it. 

Sent from Verticalsports.com Free App


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## Psi-Man (Aug 31, 2009)

BurtonAvenger said:


> The cold harsh truth of it is that free skiing is cooler amongst kids and they're taking to that. Snowboarding is still marketing to the 22 and under crowd on a percentage level it shouldn't while the biggest age demographic with the most expendable income has moved on from snowboarding to other interests because it isn't being marketed towards them. The teens to early 20 somethings from the mid to late 90's and early 2000's have moved on to start families and careers. They are that generation gap that is gone and that will hopefully one day come back when it allows.


This makes a lot of sense to me...some of my observations as and older rider....a healthy majority of the guys I rode with back in the early to mid 90's either hung up their board or went back to skiing. Even the ones that ride occasionally have their kids on skis. My observation is that parents do not want to go through that learning curve with the kids after they are up and running on skis, and the kids don't badger the parents like they did in the past to snowboard because of the "cool" factor you speak of.


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## wrathfuldeity (Oct 5, 2007)

Nope...partly because of economics as BA, but also because of climate change

Chasing Ice

At some point, it might get to be too expensive and/or too little snow...and the doc wants me to get more exercise...thus the only sensible thing is get into the bc.


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## Hank Scorpio (Oct 3, 2013)

irrballsac said:


> Never mind the fact that this article was written in dec. of 2012? Link newer articles please.


No. The article being 13 months old is irrelevant as the information itself is still relevant and easily verifiable, and the topic is the effects of long-term climate change. 

If you want other articles with the exact same information and conclusions, feel free to use Google.... it's not that hard.


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## scotty100 (Apr 3, 2012)

lab49232 said:


> Umm I grew up riding in the NE and snow has never *not* been spotty there in November, in fact any resort open in November is AHEAD of schedule, and Colorado is having one of it's best season on record. This has nothing to do with the industry. A shitty wanna be global warming article that means nothing. Don't get me wrong, I'm not arguing against global warming but A: this is a crazy inaccurately written piece, and B: Has nothing to do with this thread.
> 
> PS. I have been studying global warming and the environment for years, please don't post poorly written articles like this for no reason, they are bull shit. There are plenty of great, well written articles without made up facts that talk about global warming danger. We need to care for the environment but not at the risk of fake propaganda pieces.These mass medias attempts to get the uniformed public to overreact and respond to their news are a disgrace to real journalists and scientists everywhere.


You say you're not arguing against global warming and that we need to take care of the environment, "but not at the risk of fake propaganda pieces" and that "*mass medias attempts to get the uniformed public to overreact and respond to their news are a disgrace to real journalists and scientists everywhere*". I'm confused about the exact point you are trying to make? The article makes clear the dangers of global warming to the snowsports industry. No argument from anyone on here about that, right? We see that everywhere this year. My local mountain is Squaw valley and I haven't even bothered to go up there this season. No point cos there's no snow. Nothing. A man-made 18 inch base (!!) that melts every day at lunch time and 100 bucks lift ticket to ruin my board on rocks? No thanks. And how long will Squaw get away with making snow every day in a drought to keep that 18 inch base? Good for the environment? Hell no. So what's wrong with getting people to "overreact" to climate change in a positive way to at least _try_ and avoid what we are again seeing on the slopes this season (grass not snow)? Climate change is by far the biggest threat to snowboarding as we know it.


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## lab49232 (Sep 13, 2011)

BurtonAvenger said:


> I want to know where the idea CO is having one of its best seasons on record came from. We're having an average season at best. I can go take some pics of Breck tomorrow if I feel to be bothered that will show a different interpretation of what you believe this "record" year is looking like. Sure we got 7 feet of snow from the 1st to the 15th and now we're just baking in the sun with a lot of it being windswept as well.
> 
> Snowfall directly effects the snowboard industry. The last three years have raped the industry in ways most people won't notice unless they actually work in it.
> 
> ...


Fair enough, I should have introduced the caveat of "some places in Colorado" and I musty admit saying "record" was an overstatement. You should put me in my place and you did, I accept that. Breck for example is having a fantastic year as far as total snowfall goes though, well above average in every category and this is true of many CO resorts (a sun and windbreak doesn't make it a bad year after receiving 160% of average snowfall to date). And the NE is doing even better. Having spent years working and teaching there, we prayed for Thanksgiving openings ever year so that article talking about warm temps at a resort that opened in October and yelling at warming for a mediocre November is full of fail. Global warming is hurting the industry but that is not even remotely an example of it, and even season snowfalls do not actually represent proof or disproof of global warming. There will be days in the 50's and days in the 20s every year and that's gonna happen every January regardless of human interaction. Help the environment as we are killing it at this pace, but that was a terrible piece that was giving horrid false examples. Basically I just got too upset that someone tried to use a fluff piece to make a point that didn't make sense and I apologize for getting carried away.

The rest of these points are perfectly accurate and back to the point of the OP. We all want to believe it's a flourishing industry but anyone who works in it or looks beyond the basic marketing knows the truth. Like BA said, help the environment, support local brands and shops, and the people who support snowboarding! But with every ten brands that try and start this year, 15
are going under. I've spent years working in it and another dozen as a simple participant and I can assure you that those high gloss photos you saw in a magazine article mean about as much as the groundhog seeing his shadow.


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## Donutz (May 12, 2010)

Time to kick this back into topic. AGW comes under the heading of "politics" and we don't have a heading for that on purpose. Don't make me bring out the garden hose.

Snowboardingforum.com User Guidelines


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## MarshallV82 (Apr 6, 2011)

Donutz said:


> Time to kick this back into topic. AGW comes under the heading of "politics" and we don't have a heading for that on purpose. Don't make me bring out the garden hose.
> 
> Snowboardingforum.com User Guidelines


This is like the third thread I've read this week veer off into that topic!

Anyway, 
Now that BA mentions it, you do seem to see way more riders aged in their mid-late twenties/thirties anymore. Back when I skied all the other kids were rocking snowboards, thats why I made the switch! 

Snowboarding should advertise how much easier riding is on your knees than skiing! (IME Anyway..)


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## lab49232 (Sep 13, 2011)

killclimbz said:


> Great post BA and dead on. I don't get why snowboarding is dead set on marketing to the 20 year old. The group with the least amount of disposable income. Not to knock any 20 year olds, but they will find the cheapest way to get what they want or they just won't buy.
> 
> Funny that splitboard related gear is booming. Something that is marketed to people 30 and up and it is by far the most expensive gear in snowboarding. Guys like Spark and Venture are killing it.
> 
> Sent from Verticalsports.com Free App


Shh! Don't let the public know :laugh:! But yup as SIA loves to point out, spkitboarding/backcountry is hands down the fastest (and really only) growing part of snowboarding. That being said, when total units reported sold last year were about 2,000 there's not much room to shrink :dunno: Not a sign of growth in the snowboard industry by any means but awesome regardless! In the mean time small backountry numbers mean more fresh tracks for the rest of us. The longer I can go without needing to use a sled to get fresh turns the better!


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## miplatt88 (May 13, 2013)

Snowboarding should be marketed as being cheaper than skiing. I mean hell, The most expensive board and binding is cheaper than middle of the road skis. Snowboard boots are worlds cheaper than ski boots. I havent bought skis simply because I dont feel like plunking down $2k for skis, bindings, and boots. I could buy a NS Cobra with Now Drives for less than 1k. And thats a top of the line board and bindings.


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## andrewdod (Mar 24, 2013)

killclimbz said:


> Great post BA and dead on. I don't get why snowboarding is dead set on marketing to the 20 year old. The group with the least amount of disposable income. Not to knock any 20 year olds, but they will find the cheapest way to get what they want or they just won't buy.
> 
> Funny that splitboard related gear is booming. Something that is marketed to people 30 and up and it is by far the most expensive gear in snowboarding. Guys like Spark and Venture are killing it.
> 
> Sent from Verticalsports.com Free App


Okay, so heres the 20 year old talking... but i have a good reason why... I go to a college in new hampshire where 85% of the school population skis or snowboards. and i cant tell you how many of these 18-22 year old kids have quivers that you guys would kill to have... I'm talking kids buy 3 or 4 new boards a year... Hell... i know a kid who just bought a brand new fish... (for what reason ill never know) Basically what i'm arguing is the statement that kids will get things the cheapest way possible or they wont buy... These kids clearly buy... The marketing these companies are doing is working...

Don't not believe that these bigger companies arent making money the way they are currently marketing... I can easily identify 20,000 dollars in gear on my floor's wing alone... and thats between about 15-20 kids... shit... ive got 2000 dollars in gear in my room alone between my roommate and I... 

I could safely say most of the schools that are near the mountains and have ski resorts in close proximity are the same way... Think about University of Colorado... how many people go there just to chase the snow while getting their education?


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## BurtonAvenger (Aug 14, 2007)

Also going to guess those are the kids whose parents are footing their educational bill as well as everything else in their life. Or they're the kids that are blowing their student loans on something other than education. Small percentage of the population in all honesty, not the types that are the kind that stabilize the market.


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## Nein11 (Oct 4, 2012)

Dont call it a comeback, its been here for years. 
Rockin your peers and puttin suckas in fear.


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## killclimbz (Aug 10, 2007)

BurtonAvenger said:


> Also going to guess those are the kids whose parents are footing their educational bill as well as everything else in their life. Or they're the kids that are blowing their student loans on something other than education. Small percentage of the population in all honesty, not the types that are the kind that stabilize the market.


Yep. Sure there are those pockets. Who funds them? Parents? Tkae away everyone else except for these users and I bet you have less then 5% of your skiet days in the nation for a season. If you follow the money, I doubt you will find one of your group thay earned it themself. That is a pretty piss poor market ti try to prop an industry up with. 

Sure snowboarding needs to bring the next generation in. It has been done at the expense of those who have the disposable income. Skiing markets to just about everyone amd though they lost ground, slow and steady wins the race. They are now proving it. 

And hell, it isn't like the industry has to throw a shit ton of money towards it. A little goes a long way with the geriatric crowd.


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## wrathfuldeity (Oct 5, 2007)

I would hazzard to say that the core (not hard core) folks that go 2-4 times per month (not merely 1-2 vacationeers) are people that grew up on the hill as kids, then went more during their late teens/early twenties (hardcore youth) and now in their 30 and 40's have some disposable income and are now taking their wee ones up on the weekends...And this is the future generation. But there is a smaller group or retired core folks of 55+ that are bolstering some numbers...but we'll be disabled or dying in 30 years


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## snowklinger (Aug 30, 2011)

*if having a bad snow year makes you want to recycle more....*

College kids are basically 1%'ers.

Snowsports arent much different.

So there's that.

The _first_ world is surprisingly small compared to the rest so you start with that, then you reduce to winter, cut out all the skiers, the numbers get small quick. 

As the global economy happens if someone is willing to do your job in China or India or Argentina for less, or come here and do it in your office for less, your boss will happily let them. This certainly has to effect niche markets like snowsports.

Then again I have to believe on some level these factors also make snowboarding more affordable. Seems like there are alot of lower-middle class people like myself taking advantage of something you would have only seen "the rich" doing 30 years ago. Some credit here goes to Vail in terms of season pass pricing, although I realize many mountains and areas remain pretty pricey in that regard.

The world is changing, change is hard. 

Global warming is a super terrible topic to even mention here because even if it were 10x worse than it is now, we would still have gnarly winters and snow, I suspect gnarLIER. The sun will continue to NOT shine on HALF the world every 6 months, that is not debatable.


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## Hank Scorpio (Oct 3, 2013)

snowklinger said:


> Global warming is a super terrible topic to even mention here because even if it were 10x worse than it is now, we would still have gnarly winters and snow, I suspect gnarLIER.


LOL what? Please post a reputable source that supports your idea of "gnarlier" winters with further global warming. As it is, long term snow levels have dropped, temperatures have risen, resorts are opening later, closing earlier, etc. Kindly explain how global warming being "10x worse" would help the snowsports community in any way.



snowklinger said:


> The sun will continue to NOT shine on HALF the world every 6 months, that is not debatable.


Yeah, it's called night time and daytime... but it has nothing to do with global warming at all.

What are you even talking about?


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## Donutz (May 12, 2010)




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## nillo (Dec 18, 2013)

Hank Scorpio said:


> LOL what? Please post a reputable source that supports your idea of "gnarlier" winters with further global warming.


http:// http://www.wunderground.com/blog/JeffMasters/heavy-snowfall-in-a-warming-world

there you go big guy.


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## snowklinger (Aug 30, 2011)

lol nighttime.

tooshay


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## Hank Scorpio (Oct 3, 2013)

nillo said:


> http:// http://www.wunderground.com/blog/JeffMasters/heavy-snowfall-in-a-warming-world
> 
> there you go big guy.


Lol you don't know what _reputable_ means, do you bud? HINT: It doesn't mean one individual's non-peer reviewed blog. 

Also, that article does not support the theory that increased global warming leads to more snowfall; it simply states a theory that in years of increased temperatures there can be instances of above-average snowfall events in certain parts of the world (the minority of it, btw).... and it also leaves out the fact that snowfall totals in these areas are still lower during these years and snow melt rates increased.

Cliffs: Try Again.


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## snowklinger (Aug 30, 2011)




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## andrewdod (Mar 24, 2013)

BurtonAvenger said:


> Also going to guess those are the kids whose parents are footing their educational bill as well as everything else in their life. Or they're the kids that are blowing their student loans on something other than education. Small percentage of the population in all honesty, not the types that are the kind that stabilize the market.



I'm not gonna lie. Most of those kids parents have deep pockets and probably do buy the gear for them. But, you gotta remember these kids come to their parents with what they want. 90% of their parents have ZERO clue what they are buying... So in that aspect the marketing ploy is working. 

You guys are right to an extent though. I have taken marketing classes... The companies need to broaden their client segmentation to the 30-40 year old age group. Right now they are targeting the young adults and teens. They should be expanding to the middle age group. (I find it ironic they are having a hard time expanding considering jake burton is in his 50s now...) they could do this simply by modifying some board graphics, airing a few ads that appeal to all 3 demographics. For example an ad that shows versatility... Show an all mountain board with attractive but yet conservative graphics. Then show a younger millennial in the park. And maybe someone who is older on the groomers. Believe it or not the subliminal messages in an ad is what will sell your product. You may not realize it right away but seeing that older middle aged guy on the groomers will appeal to a person and make them think that they can do it if he can.the key is to make people further research your product or product line and see if they will find something that fits for them. That is what these companies need to do...

For the record my parents have only ever bought me one board. I work for most of the stuff I have.


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## killclimbz (Aug 10, 2007)

Most of us do work for what we have. The marketing to us old farts just seems like it would be effective if they spent 10% of what they do targeting teens and twenty somethings. 

Sent from Verticalsports.com Free App


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## Deacon (Mar 2, 2013)

Hank Scorpio said:


> LOL what? Please post a reputable source that supports your idea of "gnarlier" winters with further global warming. As it is, long term snow levels have dropped, temperatures have risen, resorts are opening later, closing earlier, etc. Kindly explain how global warming being "10x worse" would help the snowsports community in any way.
> 
> Yeah, it's called night time and daytime... but it has nothing to do with global warming at all.
> 
> What are you even talking about?


quit picking fights. didn't you see "the day after tomorrow"? jeez. 

ps, please dont respond with another argumentative post, the above statement was tongue in cheek, and we'd hate to see you get a timeout.


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## PalmerFreak (Jul 13, 2009)

All apologies to the mods for this post. I may get banned or a timeout for this but since Hank says the world is going to warm up to a point where there won't be any snow for me to ride on anyway I guess I won't need a snowboard - or a snowboard forum to post on. 

Back in the 70's the climatologists said we were heading for the next ice age. Fast forward 30 years and the toon changes to "global warming". The warming pauses for several years and then "global warming" changes to "climate change". 

Do I believe the planet is warming to an extent? Yes. Do I believe that it's because I don't drive a Toyota Prius? No. Do I believe that man has some effect on climate patterns? Yes. Do I believe man is going to cause the sea levels to rise 20 feet? No. Will some places on earth have more snow or less snow from year to year or colder/ warmer winters than the norm? Yes. Has it been like that forever? I would say Yes - that's why they call it average temperature and average snowfall. 

To me it's pretty easy: follow the money. The climatologists back in the 70's getting millions in grant money to study global cooling and the climatologists studying global warming are getting lots more money than that. What would these douche bags do if man made global warming wasn't anywhere near what they claimed 10-15 years ago? Where would they get their grant money so they could continue to buy their electric cars and Birkenstocks? All those leaked emails where the climatologists circled the wagons to protect their livelihoods were the final straw for me - believe what you want. 

Where I live the real temperature (not wind chill) is going to hit -21 which will be the third day this winter where we've gone past -20 for a low and we're way ahead of our annual average snowfall totals for this winter. So while I'm sitting here freezing my balls off I see some douche bag post that global warming is causing my gas bills to triple so I can stay warm? I'd be completely happy with a little free warming right now, global or otherwise. I'll start believing what the climatologists are trying to spoon feed us about what our climate is going to be a hundred years from now when my local weatherman can finally give me an accurate 7 day forecast. Until then - and I'm not holding my breath - color me skeptical. 

And if you're really that concerned about all of our snow disappearing Hank maybe you should stop wasting your time typing on a forum and get out on the slopes while it's still there. Happy shredding.......


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## snowklinger (Aug 30, 2011)

PalmerFreak said:


> All apologies to the mods for this post. I may get banned or a timeout for this but since Hank says the world is going to warm up to a point where there won't be any snow for me to ride on anyway I guess I won't need a snowboard - or a snowboard forum to post on.
> 
> Back in the 70's the climatologists said we were heading for the next ice age. Fast forward 30 years and the toon changes to "global warming". The warming pauses for several years and then "global warming" changes to "climate change".
> 
> ...


incredibly great post. entertaining read and right on the money. I'm interested if its snowing NOW! Ill be dead tomorrow.


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## Donutz (May 12, 2010)

PalmerFreak said:


> To me it's pretty easy: follow the money. The climatologists back in the 70's getting millions in grant money to study global cooling and the climatologists studying global warming are getting lots more money than that.


Typical denialist bullshit. Just a couple of small problems with this. First, all the climatologists were RISKING LOSING THEIR FUNDING, not gaining funding during the Bush years. Scientists who pushed AGW were cut off or threatened with being cut off. But they pushed anyway. Hm, so much for self-interest. Meanwhile, we have DOCUMENTED INSTANCES of the rabid right funding denialist activities, INCLUDING paying scientists-for-hire up to a quarter of a million dollars at a shot to write anti-AGW papers.

Funny how the denialists' self-proclaimed skepticism allows them to blindly accept the anti-AGW statements whole without the slightest trace of proof, while adamantly ignoring the extant direct evidence with documentation of a right-wing denialist movement with HUGE money behind it.

Dude, if you want to believe it's all a conspiracy by bespeckled scientists who can barely talk to women who are managing to pull the wool over the eyes of a bunch of idealistic but naïve billionaires with global resources at their fingertips, go for it. For that matter if you want to believe in creationism, the yeti, flying saucers, a flat earth, global jewish conspiracy, fake moon landing and what-all else, it's your right. But don't pretend the facts are on your side. You're in the same position as the tobacco industry well after the evidence was rolling in.

Now, THIS is why we don't want political threads in this forum. A) they get nasty very fast, B) they have nothing to do with snowboarding, and C) no-one ever convinces anyone of anything. So this is the LAST post on this subject. Next person who pushes the AGW argument in this thread ON EITHER SIDE gets a time-out.


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## snowklinger (Aug 30, 2011)

*I dont even know what AGW stands for......*



Donutz said:


> Typical denialist bullshit. Just a couple of small problems with this. First, all the climatologists were RISKING LOSING THEIR FUNDING, not gaining funding during the Bush years. Scientists who pushed AGW were cut off or threatened with being cut off. But they pushed anyway. Hm, so much for self-interest. Meanwhile, we have DOCUMENTED INSTANCES of the rabid right funding denialist activities, INCLUDING paying scientists-for-hire up to a quarter of a million dollars at a shot to write anti-AGW papers.
> 
> Funny how the denialists' self-proclaimed skepticism allows them to blindly accept the anti-AGW statements whole without the slightest trace of proof, while adamantly ignoring the extant direct evidence with documentation of a right-wing denialist movement with HUGE money behind it.
> 
> Dude, if you want to believe it's all a conspiracy by bespeckled scientists who can barely talk to women who are managing to pull the wool over the eyes of a bunch of idealistic but naïve billionaires with global resources at their fingertips, go for it. For that matter if you want to believe in creationism, the yeti, flying saucers, a flat earth, global jewish conspiracy, fake moon landing and what-all else, it's your right. But don't pretend the facts are on your side. You're in the same position as the tobacco industry well after the evidence was rolling in.


followed by



Donutz said:


> So this is the LAST post on this subject. Next person who pushes the AGW argument in this thread ON EITHER SIDE gets a time-out.


how very Snowolf of you! Complete with rhetoric and caps!

For the record I liked the guy and all his package and I didn't agree with all his views, just a guy being himself on the internet, which I prize - particularly when shit was bad - I love chaos.

I knew your inner-scientist was gonna get all UFC with your inner-moderator Donutz!

hahahahahahahahahahahahah


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## hardasacatshead (Aug 21, 2013)

One time, I saw a cat. It had three black feet and one white foot. I didn't like that cat until he brought me a beer. Then six men in blue suits threw a basketball each at a plastic chair and I took a dump. 

I wanted to contribute to this thread but Dad said no. :sad:

Also, I'm a Mining Engineer so I'm the guy Hank loves to hate.


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## Bones (Feb 24, 2008)

As to the economic side of the decline in snowboarding:

I would suggest that decline in niche recreational activities such as snowboarding, wind surfing, etc. is normal for any niche product/activity as the competition for people's recreational budget and time increases..

There is just some many things for the weekend warrior to do and try that the % of their recreational budget spent on any single activity has seriously declined in past decade.

I have nothing but anecdotal evidence to support this, but among my friends who ski and board, it has become increasingly difficult to get them to spend a significant portion of their vacation time and money on snow sports. They are planning other big trips around other activities (cycling in Europe, diving in Belize, hiking in Nepal, etc.) They still have high disposable incomes, but time has replaced money as the limiting factor.


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## ShredLife (Feb 6, 2010)




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## KansasNoob (Feb 24, 2013)

I love snowboarding


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## BurtonAvenger (Aug 14, 2007)

As it seems some people are hung up on making this a climate debate I'll just throw this out there. Use logic and deductive reasoning to realize there are issues at hand that we cannot control and form your thoughts from that. 

Going back to the original topic at hand beyond the cyclical nature of the snow and how it impacts the economics of snowboarding we have to look at the pre-packaged image of snowboarding in its current state. 

If anyone was bothered to watch the X-Games last night Halldor took a stand against the spin to win antics of it and threw a switch method. Possibly the hardest trick in snowboarding. Don't believe me? Try it. He did it in protest of this more spins, more flips, more boot grabs, higher score bullshit. Which currently seems to be what people that are seeing snowboarding for the first times image is of it. Anyone that actually snowboards knows that is such not the case. 

So with organizers like FIS, sponsors like the U.S. Navy, and companies like NBC trying to homogenize and make it relatable to the average person it now looks like it's impossible to attain. When halfpipes were 18 feet max that looked achievable, now at 22 with 20 plus foot airs no one is looking at that going "I can do that". Triple corks just nuked slopestyle. Realistically the only thing people can somewhat relate to in terms of freestyle is rail riding. It just looks like "hey I can roll up to this down bar and hit it with some homies". 

For snowboarding to truly right itself there needs to be an even bigger culling of the herd. This time in the form of fucktards that graduated college and decided that snowboarding would be a "fun" job instead of a real job. It's these people that for one reason or another get into a position with a company that are ruining it because they're lazy, inept, or just plain off in the ether somewhere. Snowboarding needs to be run by real snowboarders, ones that understand you don't need to market fun, you don't need to market that riders run the company, but instead ones that can just spell it out to you that this is what we do, why we do it, and what it brings to you. It needs to cross all demographics, it needs to reach all genders, and all ages. 

Before I go on further into a sun stroked fueled rage I think I'll just leave it with snowboarding is fucked, it might fix itself, it might not. Do your part to what you believe benefits snowboarding and remember it owes you nothing, you owe it everything. If you can't grasp that last part you probably haven't truly realized the freedom it gives you and maybe you should look at some other activity that does.


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## Bones (Feb 24, 2008)

BurtonAvenger said:


> Going back to the original topic at hand beyond the cyclical nature of the snow and how it impacts the economics of snowboarding we have to look at the pre-packaged image of snowboarding in its current state.


I think that there is a lot of merit in this argument.

I am by no means a park rat or even a hardcore boarder, but what I am generally fed as the image of the sport are things that completely unattainable by me: ridiculous tricks, huge kickers, unbelievable cliff drops, etc. While I can marvel at the abilities involved, I just can't relate that to myself. Kinda like ski jumping

Perhaps that is why boardercross is popular....looks like something I could do or at least try.


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## CassMT (Mar 14, 2013)

i don't think climate change will kill snowboarding, i think in fact it will become year-round with advances in artificial surfaces and indoor facilities. imagine whole mountains carpeted or some kind of spray-on shit


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## lab49232 (Sep 13, 2011)

I will say snowboard specific ads do tend to advertise towards the aforementioned groups. However I wouldn't say this is true of the entire snow industry. Monatana's campaign using Warren Miller for example was great talking about the beauty of being in the mountains and snow, Oregon is running a (although very crappy) their ad for Ski Oregon which features mild park riding but is about being on the hill. There's plenty of others and while they aren't "snowboard specific" they all are an attempt to get more skiers and snowboarders on the slope. 

There's a lot more than marketing to a young group and/or weather that's causing the drop in participation, it's a ton of factors. Economy, resorts going crazy with pricing, recent poor winters (let's attribute it to that and just not talk about if it's global warming as the cause of poor seasons doesn't change the outcome on the effect on the industry) and the fact that niche sports seem to always be cyclical all play a role. And there are probably even more factors that those at play. Point being, no, no snowboarding is not making a comeback. But it's not dead either and for that all I can say is :yahoo:


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## trapper (Jan 15, 2013)

BurtonAvenger said:


> Do your part to what you believe benefits snowboarding and remember it owes you nothing, you owe it everything. If you can't grasp that last part you probably haven't truly realized the freedom it gives you and maybe you should look at some other activity that does.


First off that whole post was outstanding. I don't post this as a run-of-the-mill BA kiss-ass statement, I really mean that.

But I guess I don't fully grasp what this quoted statement means to the average amateur rider who really has no platform for which to give back to snowboarding in a significant way. Maybe I'm mistaken in your idea of giving back to the sport, thinking it has to be something bigger than getting new people into it and exposing my kids and friends to it in the right way. Because really I feel like that's all I've done for it, which isn't ANYWHERE close to what it's done for me.


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## Donutz (May 12, 2010)

CassMT said:


> i don't think climate change will kill snowboarding, i think in fact it will become year-round with advances in artificial surfaces and indoor facilities. imagine whole mountains carpeted or some kind of spray-on shit


Well, here's a question for someone with some knowledge -- are indoor snowboarding/skiing parks economically viable? Or are they a niche thing that needs just the right local economic environment?


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## tonicusa (Feb 27, 2008)

"Spin to win" does suck! And it's robbing the sport of its original swagger and personal irreverence and expression that it was built on. I got jumped on by a bunch of the young kids for saying this in a different post on the state of half pipe competitions. But they've turned into nothing more than gymnastics or a diving competition - blah. Don't get me wrong it's amazing and I still like watching it but it has a different focus now that like EL said, most people can't relate to. 

However it's not college grads working in sports marketing that's affecting/ruining the sport, its money. The college grads and others simply follow the money. I've seen in other industries experiencing the same growth cycle. But you will be very pleased to know EL that this simply confirms your universal thesis that people suck


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## Donutz (May 12, 2010)

snowklinger said:


> how very Snowolf of you! Complete with rhetoric and caps!


Did you hear my head explode? :laugh: I tried twice before to soft-sell it, third time it's 





And Shredlife has gone and used his whole weekly supply of pictures now.hmy:

BTW, AGW stands for "Anthropogenic Global Warming" which is the theory that climate change is driven in whole or in part by human activity.


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## CassMT (Mar 14, 2013)

d.davis and Haldor and using their spotlight to ''protest with style' in a way...namely in the last 3 days they both threw Huge switch methods in contest, ddavis won with his in the pipe, style will return everythings gonna be alright


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## globoat (Jan 28, 2013)

I think the simplest answer to why snowboarding isn't growing is because kids rock twin tip skis. I thought about switching to twin tips for a second there but that thought was short lived.


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## PalmerFreak (Jul 13, 2009)

Donutz said:


> For that matter if you want to believe in creationism, the yeti, flying saucers, a flat earth, global jewish conspiracy, fake moon landing and what-all else, it's your right.


Wait, you don't believe in yeti's?? 

In all seriousness, I apologize to Donutz the moderator. You specifically stated that this kind of discussion was against forum rules and I clearly stepped over that line. Looking back it also could be interpreted that I was calling Hank a douche bag when I was referring to climatologists. If any offense was taken I apologize and will adhere to the forum rules going forward. I've gotten a lot of valuable information from this forum and appreciate the help and knowledge that so many people here share for our great sport.


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## BurtonAvenger (Aug 14, 2007)

trapper said:


> But I guess I don't fully grasp what this quoted statement means to the average amateur rider who really has no platform for which to give back to snowboarding in a significant way. Maybe I'm mistaken in your idea of giving back to the sport, thinking it has to be something bigger than getting new people into it and exposing my kids and friends to it in the right way. Because really I feel like that's all I've done for it, which isn't ANYWHERE close to what it's done for me.


Everyone can give back one way or another it doesn't need to be this MASSIVE thing that people will pat you on the back for. In my opinion doing shit like that for the most part is just a bullshit tactic of people wanting to use it in marketing or to have others pat them on the back and say they're making a difference. If a company or person has to brag about what they do to "give back" then they're not really giving back. It's the silent gestures that genuinely impact a persons life on an individual level that make the most difference. It's on this level that I've seen personally from things of this nature that I've done that I've saved peoples seasons, helped kids reach their dreams, and above all else changed someones life. Everyone has that ability to do it.


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## Zolemite (Dec 13, 2012)

I've seen many stages of snowboarding and have myself been through stages. I started when I was 12, and I'm 35 now. I hope more of my generation will get back on their boards. I'm still riding at a fairly high level, and am each time out still.

My love for snowboarding is really like nothing else. I think I'll always be drawn to the hill.


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## snowklinger (Aug 30, 2011)

Halldor is my snowboarding idol.

The fact that he is a Viking Dwarf King returned to unite his people (me) doesn't hurt.


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## Donutz (May 12, 2010)

PalmerFreak said:


> Wait, you don't believe in yeti's??
> 
> In all seriousness, I apologize to Donutz the moderator. You specifically stated that this kind of discussion was against forum rules and I clearly stepped over that line. Looking back it also could be interpreted that I was calling Hank a douche bag when I was referring to climatologists. If any offense was taken I apologize and will adhere to the forum rules going forward. I've gotten a lot of valuable information from this forum and appreciate the help and knowledge that so many people here share for our great sport.


:thumbsup:

Some of my best friends are yetis -- or are doing a pretty good imitation.


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## Donutz (May 12, 2010)

Zolemite said:


> I've seen many stages of snowboarding and have myself been through stages. I started when I was 12, and I'm 35 now. I hope more of my generation will get back on their boards. I'm still riding at a fairly high level, and am each time out still.
> 
> My love for snowboarding is really like nothing else. I think I'll always be drawn to the hill.


I had an interesting conversation a few days ago around this subject. Well, mostly I just listened. Was at a wake, where of course you meet people you haven't seen in years. Talking to a guy from way back, who used to ski then of course got married, had kids, etc etc etc. Anyway he's starting to look into skiing again since he now lives in Vernon which is close to a lot of good hills. He was talking about how much skis have changed in the last 20+ years because of the snowboarding influence. He'd actually tried out a set of big banana skis and he said they were tons more fun that the old style skis had been.

Is it possible we are the authors of our own demise? We've created so much new tech for the ski industry to absorb, and now perhaps they're just more fun!!


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## Zolemite (Dec 13, 2012)

I'd never put on skis again


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## koi (May 16, 2013)

CassMT said:


> d.davis and Haldor and using their spotlight to ''protest with style' in a way...namely in the last 3 days they both threw Huge switch methods in contest, ddavis won with his in the pipe, style will return everythings gonna be alright


yeah, i loved that halldor & eiki interview after x-games big air. i hate that spinning is all that judges are looking for, i miss the days where a big method or stalefish was judge as a good trick clean trick.


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## stickz (Feb 6, 2013)

Donutz said:


> I had an interesting conversation a few days ago around this subject. Well, mostly I just listened. Was at a wake, where of course you meet people you haven't seen in years. Talking to a guy from way back, who used to ski then of course got married, had kids, etc etc etc. Anyway he's starting to look into skiing again since he now lives in Vernon which is close to a lot of good hills. He was talking about how much skis have changed in the last 20+ years because of the snowboarding influence. He'd actually tried out a set of big banana skis and he said they were tons more fun that the old style skis had been.
> 
> 
> 
> Is it possible we are the authors of our own demise? We've created so much new tech for the ski industry to absorb, and now perhaps they're just more fun!!



Maybe some of the problem is they're perceived as more fun. also maybe the problem is ski schools. they will take kids as early as 3. Same schools usually won't teach snowboarding till a kid is 6-7. that's a few yrs on skis. A lot of parents don't want their kid to have to go through learning all over again to switch to snowboarding. especially if they have invested so much money into skiing. Plus by this point most of his/her friends ski and prob rip if they've been skiing together since they were 3. I started snowboarding at 33 due to a huge influence from skateboarding. Kids are skiing way before ever stepping on a skateboard. So it's really up to us snowboarders who have young children to get them on a god dam snowboard young instead of skis. or maybe I'm completely wrong.


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## Zolemite (Dec 13, 2012)

My daughter will start next season at 4


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## West Baden Iron (Jan 31, 2013)

Zolemite said:


> My daughter will start next season at 4


I got my daughters started at 5 and 8. It's one of the better decisions I've made. They are both going down all the runs linking turns at our little resort and can't wait to see how they do in Colorado on spring break.


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## stickz (Feb 6, 2013)

my son will be 3 next season and will start


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## CassMT (Mar 14, 2013)

damn, at 3 or 4 i think i would start with skis, and i'm pretty much anti ski...just to get them used to how that kind of movement on snow goes. i wonder if a kid that little has the coordination and balance whereas any lil kid with a worm on can snowplow down a green run


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## Deacon (Mar 2, 2013)

CassMT said:


> damn, at 3 or 4 i think i would start with skis, and i'm pretty much anti ski...just to get them used to how that kind of movement on snow goes. i wonder if a kid that little has the coordination and balance whereas any lil kid with a worm on can snowplow down a green run


exactly why I have my 3 year old on skis. just getting get used to being out there and having fun. she usually only lasts 60-90 minutes anyway. :laugh:


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## PalmerFreak (Jul 13, 2009)

My girlfriend has 4 kids and I managed to get her son on a snowboard this year but the three girls are all on skis - despite my best efforts to convince her otherwise. A guy at work has an 8 year old son that wanted to snowboard but he wanted him to try skiing first. :dunno:


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## BurtonAvenger (Aug 14, 2007)

stickz said:


> Maybe some of the problem is they're perceived as more fun. also maybe the problem is ski schools. they will take kids as early as 3. Same schools usually won't teach snowboarding till a kid is 6-7. that's a few yrs on skis. A lot of parents don't want their kid to have to go through learning all over again to switch to snowboarding. especially if they have invested so much money into skiing. Plus by this point most of his/her friends ski and prob rip if they've been skiing together since they were 3. I started snowboarding at 33 due to a huge influence from skateboarding. Kids are skiing way before ever stepping on a skateboard. So it's really up to us snowboarders who have young children to get them on a god dam snowboard young instead of skis. or maybe I'm completely wrong.


Well to go along with this as times are changing. If you look at the largest age group of snowboarders they're finally having kids and means we'll finally start to see a new generation of kids being brought up on snowboards instead of skis. But previously in the past there hasn't been equipment that was suited for a child under the age of 5, now there is. Then you have Burton making the Riglet parks and designing equipment around that and it's solid. 



I figure it'll be about 5 years before we see PSIA and those fucktards catching on to the idea of "hey maybe we should teach younger kids". But that's a whole other issue. People just need to get over that myth of my kid has to be age X to do snowboarding, might take more effort at the younger ages but it will work. 

Earlier this year I had the chance to help a friend teach her 2 year old. Kid has figured out how to skate, turn right, and left. But still likes to go as fast as possible down the hill then sit down. But he has figured out the movement while using one of the Burton little kid decks that's super crazy rockered and convex. 

To go along with the ski tech argument. Rocker actually originated on that side of things. We just invented the sidecut.


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