# Freeride with duck stance?



## PalmerFreak (Jul 13, 2009)

As I was searching about stance widths for setting up my new board/bindings I found a Nidecker video that says to use the measurement from your heal to the middle of your knee to determine your base stance width. The video then goes on to show binding angles and adjustments to the stance width based on riding style - freestyle, all mountain, freeride, etc.

I have a directional freeride board (Amplid Pentaquark) so based on these factors the video says my base stance should widen a bit and my front binding angle in the +12 to +18 range while my rear binding angle should be close to zero - plus/minus 3 or so.

I had 25% of my right medial miniscus shaved off several years ago and bought bindings with canted footbeds and started riding duck - the bindings on my previous freeride board (Gnu Billy Goat) were at +15 / -15 but I’ve got my new bindings at +18 / -18.

As I searched around this forum it was mentioned several times that binding width/angles are really personal preference but was wondering if any other mostly freeride peeps ride duck in the +15 / -15 range or am I in the minority? Am I missing out on some freeride advantages by riding duck? I’ve never ridden a + / + stance before but should it be something I consider if my knees will take it?

Thanks in advance for any feedback.


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## BurtonAvenger (Aug 14, 2007)

I do. Here's the thing most people don't talk about with posi posi stances, it puts different torque on your hip flexors and labrum.


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## PalmerFreak (Jul 13, 2009)

Thanks for the feedback. 

So are you saying that riding duck to ease knee pain would possibly transfer wear and tear to your hips flexors and/or labrum?


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## smellysell (Oct 29, 2018)

I'm not any good, but I do. I can't ride switch at all ++ so I just can't do it.


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## El Cholo Rojo (3 mo ago)

++ is a just meme.


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## t21 (Dec 29, 2010)

As some people say that riding ++ feels more natural especially if you like carving. My stance is almost both positive +27/-3. I can still ride switch(though not as good) but i can with this stance.


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## DaveMcI (Aug 19, 2013)

++ stance also minimizes toe/heel drag when you are layer over in a carve. I'm 95% freeride and I ride a +21, -6. Sort of duckish, and I ride switch fairly often ( with the wife and kids)


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## NT.Thunder (Jan 4, 2020)

I ride +21/+9 on my Surfari and close to on my Dada. I tried going back to +/- on my Dada last trip but just didn’t feel comfortable for Me. Rarely ride switch, rarely ride park, all just open faces for me and these binding angles seem to work well for me anyway, feel natural and relaxed. Try a few, I was amazed just how different a few degrees +/- can make. Most resorts will have a binding/work station set up and it’s only a quick couple of minutes to change.


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## speedjason (May 2, 2013)

Whatever makes you comfortable. Stance is a preference thing.


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## BurtonAvenger (Aug 14, 2007)

PalmerFreak said:


> Thanks for the feedback.
> 
> So are you saying that riding duck to ease knee pain would possibly transfer wear and tear to your hips flexors and/or labrum?


No I'm saying posi posi does. Look at how you naturally stand when not snowboarding it's not a posi posi angle, it's not even a 0 0 it's probably some kind of duck stance. Unless you're a mongloid then all bets are off.


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## NoirX252 (Aug 1, 2009)

Any stance works. If you are balanced, that is key. Edge hold on sheer ice is being able to balance on a tiny sliver cut into the slope, no matter what. Most people can't, it's why they slip out or chatter. The snow has to be EXTREMELY firm for sharp edges to be essential. You can grip on stuff that scares most people on fairly dull edges; even the type of snow that keeps ski patrol busy.

RIde whatever is comfortable. No amount of world cup edge tunes or special stances is going to help with balance and grip in challenging situations; it's all up to you.


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## PalmerFreak (Jul 13, 2009)

BurtonAvenger said:


> No I'm saying posi posi does. Look at how you naturally stand when not snowboarding it's not a posi posi angle, it's not even a 0 0 it's probably some kind of duck stance. Unless you're a mongloid then all bets are off.


My apologies, I misread that.


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## PalmerFreak (Jul 13, 2009)

NT.Thunder said:


> I ride +21/+9 on my Surfari and close to on my Dada. I tried going back to +/- on my Dada last trip but just didn’t feel comfortable for Me. Rarely ride switch, rarely ride park, all just open faces for me and these binding angles seem to work well for me anyway, feel natural and relaxed. Try a few, I was amazed just how different a few degrees +/- can make. Most resorts will have a binding/work station set up and it’s only a quick couple of minutes to change.


I just might give +/+ a try - can’t hurt.


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## Donutz (May 12, 2010)

PalmerFreak said:


> I just might give +/+ a try - can’t hurt.


Actually, it literally can hurt. I was trying out +/+ last winter and ended up tweaking my knee.


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## PalmerFreak (Jul 13, 2009)

Donutz said:


> Actually, it literally can hurt. I was trying out +/+ last winter and ended up tweaking my knee.


Thanks for the info - I don’t need another knee injury at my age. 

I was planning on rotating the bindings to +/+ and seeing how it feels on my living room floor before even attempting something on the hill.


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## Craig64 (Jul 16, 2015)

Over the Decades I've evolved from duck to now ++ and it's clearly the go to for AM, Freeride and Powder in how I ride (High speed carver/slasher and as little park as I can do ie zero). So just as @speedjason suggest....,

*setting up to your riding style is the key*. 

With snowboarding we ride in a sideways direction as opposed to how we walk normally in a forward direction (or if you're big on side slipping). Riding +/- (duck) gives you the ability to ride switch with far greater ease as your front foot is positioned in the direction of travel. You can still ride switch in an emergency with double ++ but it's a lot more difficult. 

Olympic slalom snowboarders (hardboot) are all riding aggressive ++ and can rip into insane high speed RN level angled carves with ease but they are very one direction with this setup. However that being said RN rides +/- but he's on an entirely different level..., to even universe with his carving to most others.


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## WigMar (Mar 17, 2019)

I thought it was a little funny when I saw the duck angles on @PalmerFreak's new Pentaquark setup. I ride mine with some pretty aggressive posi posi angles, and that duck stance kinda freaked me out. I rode duck until I got into carving a few years ago. It's funny I'd never tried it before because I felt so much more at home on my board with ++ angles. I've never looked back. I don't even mind riding switch with ++ angles- it still feels like riding backwards but you look like Terje lol. 

Specifically with the Penta, I set up my angles to get my feet to fit on the board so I can lay it over fully when carving without drag. That works out to something like 45/33 with my size 11 boots. If it was a wider deck, I could relax the angles but it really didn't take much getting used to. I only use my Penta for carving and groomer days however. I honestly wouldn't really want to freeride on it. That's what the Surfari is for lol. 

I'd rock whatever angles you're comfortable with. Everyone's body is different. For instance, I've shattered my pelvis before. I've seen some incredible freeriding done with both stances.


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## philw (8 mo ago)

BurtonAvenger said:


> Unless you're a mongloid then all bets are off.


Don't be that guy.

When duck stance first came in there were lots of people who said it'd make you old, bald, fat, and useless at snowboarding. They were talking nonsense of course, and you still are.


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## robotfood99 (Mar 19, 2016)

Whatever feels the most natural and powerful. For groomer carvers and pow boats, I set up in moderate ++. For most other freeride setups I find myself reverting to anything between +30/0 to +21/-9. I'm not trying to stick with the 30-deg. splay but seem to be comfortable with it.


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## Kevington (Feb 8, 2018)

Maybe it also depends what you mean by freeride? If its carving on well prepared pistes and riding pow in mellow terrain then ++ could work for you. If its high consequence gnarly stuff with drops and variable snow, or even just a busy resort with steeps, moguls and inconsistent conditions then a wider stance with a bit of duck on the back foot is more stable and naturally shock absorbing. The first type of riding there are fewer surprises and impacts, the second type you need to be prepared for anything and everything coming at you thick and fast. 

I've also had medial meniscus surgery and I find stances around 21/-6 to be the most comfortable and versatile, I can still carve but also ride switch and butter. I can also land airs without feeling like my knees might explode. One thing I noticed with ++ is that the lower you squat, the more your weight shifts towards the tail. Like you are not so much sitting down over the heel edge but onto the tail of the board. This is probably one of the reasons why it's good for turning/carving. The other side of that is that I lost the tail in chopped up pow or small drops where I was squatting to absorb landing but was not used to my weight automatically moving back so the tail went out from under me. 

I guess it's a lot do do with individual mobility, strength and aesthetic preference. If I had better internal hip rotation and lived in Japan, I'd probably go ++ and snowsurf my way gently into old age.


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## BurtonAvenger (Aug 14, 2007)

philw said:


> Don't be that guy.
> 
> When duck stance first came in there were lots of people who said it'd make you old, bald, fat, and useless at snowboarding. They were talking nonsense of course, and you still are.


Reading comprehension isn't your strong suit is it?


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## Etienne (Apr 2, 2021)

I ride 21 to 18/-6 to -12 in freeride mainly. I tried a bit of ++ for carving, but it sucked really bad off piste. I just feel too light on my backfoot and locked in my hips with ++.

Any kind of "duck" stance is where you're gonna have the more power on your two feet. Just get low into a power squat stance and push the hell out of your board. In freeride, you need to be able to just center yourself on your two feet and power through stuff, sometimes land hard, sometimes push hard on your backfoot. And for all of that, I'm much better with a bit of negative. Like, you don't lift heavy stuff with one knee bent inward.

Most FWT riders range between 0 and -12 I think. Kazu rides +15/-15, should be good enough! And yeah, how you feel is really important. You should be able to get low and push hard without weird pain (tired muscles is another problem…).


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## MrDavey2Shoes (Mar 5, 2018)

You can definitely free ride duck. I don’t, I find lateral pressure on my rear knee when I drive it into the center of the board if I’m running duck. Feels like I doing something against thebwishes of my knee. Then again my joints have very prematurely gone to shit.


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## meki (Nov 20, 2021)

for a while I used posi-posi but at the end of the day I often had burning pain in the rear calf even without powder. then I went to 15 -15 and changed to 18 -6. not bad... now I would like to try a radical 21 -9 I always have time to go back the biggest advantage of the duck, in addition to being practical, the change in long traverses is to be more stable in landings in my opinion, the important thing is to feel comfortable listening to your body


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## Kevington (Feb 8, 2018)

If Gerry rotated his back foot into a positive angle here, he'd likely fall off the back of the board.
In snowboarding it's possible as you can rely on the stiffness of the boots, bindings and tail of the board to hold you up. Double posi is often referred to as 'surfy' but I think its more carvy and comes from influential riders who grew up in the 80s and early 90s when everyone did hard boot slalom racing as well as halfpipe/freestyle. Craig Kelly, Terje Haakonsen, Jeremy Jones, Nicolas Wolken etc.


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## PalmerFreak (Jul 13, 2009)

Kevington said:


> Maybe it also depends what you mean by freeride? If its carving on well prepared pistes and riding pow in mellow terrain...............


OK, so it appears that my understanding of freeride is pretty far off from what freeride actually is once I looked up the definition. I like to carve and go fast on fresh corduroy but I'm not digging trenches. I don't go in the park or off-piste and have ridden in powder maybe once in my life and it was only a few inches at Breck.

When I looked up the Pentaquark it sounded like a "corduroy slayer" based on the description on the Amplid site:

"Once mastered, unleashing the Pentaquark on freshly groomed corduroy is a euphoric experience, but taming this wild stallion is not for the faint-hearted."

Adding the anti-phase tech to what sounds like my style of riding sounded like a no brainer so I pulled the trigger.

My apologies for the premise of this thread being wrong (at least in my case) but it at least opened up some discussion.


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## QwertyDaz (Oct 9, 2018)

New rider here so take this as a pinch of salt...I've been reading up on this forum about stance angles when setting up my new board and come to the conclusion that it all depends on the quirks of your body. One persons position for comfort and power might not work for everyone or anyone else. 

My left/front foot is normal, my right/back foot is completely flat and naturally ducky and on top of that I have comedically long femurs. If I put my back foot square (0) is puts weird pressure at the base of my tib & fib / top of my foot and a feeling of torsion in my tib & fib. Neither comfortable nor powerful. If I try to squat with back foot straight it feels restrictive and I can't get low. If I open/duck the foot up to a negative angle it removes the pressure(s) and restrictive feeling and can squat much lower. There is zero chance that my back foot can be positive for any style of riding even if it is recommended or suggested as being 'ideal'. Foot does not compute.


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## robotfood99 (Mar 19, 2016)

PalmerFreak said:


> Adding the anti-phase tech to what sounds like my style of riding sounded like a no brainer so I pulled the trigger.
> 
> My apologies for the premise of this thread being wrong (at least in my case) but it at least opened up some discussion.


Win/win! 



QwertyDaz said:


> New rider here so take this as a pinch of salt...I've been reading up on this forum about stance angles when setting up my new board and come to the conclusion that it all depends on the quirks of your body. One persons position for comfort and power might not work for everyone or anyone else.


Yup, don't pay too much mind to what the flavor of the month/season is. You do you and find your own sweet spot.


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## smellysell (Oct 29, 2018)

PalmerFreak said:


> OK, so it appears that my understanding of freeride is pretty far off from what freeride actually is once I looked up the definition. I like to carve and go fast on fresh corduroy but I'm not digging trenches. I don't go in the park or off-piste and have ridden in powder maybe once in my life and it was only a few inches at Breck.
> 
> When I looked up the Pentaquark it sounded like a "corduroy slayer" based on the description on the Amplid site:
> 
> ...


This makes me sad, you need some powder in your life! Where do you live?


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## Rip154 (Sep 23, 2017)

BurtonAvenger said:


> No I'm saying posi posi does. Look at how you naturally stand when not snowboarding it's not a posi posi angle, it's not even a 0 0 it's probably some kind of duck stance. Unless you're a mongloid then all bets are off.


Guessing you had some experience with it? Had to put front foot 0, back foot +21 for this stubborn lil guy, and it kinda worked.


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## PalmerFreak (Jul 13, 2009)

smellysell said:


> This makes me sad, you need some powder in your life! Where do you live?


Wisconsin - we don't get much light powder here so when it snows it usually gets groomed up pretty fast. Best I can really hope for is packed powder for the most part. :-/


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## steeznuts (Dec 8, 2018)

Donutz said:


> Actually, it literally can hurt. I was trying out +/+ last winter and ended up tweaking my knee.


Good to ease into +/+ stance, rotate 3-6deg at a time and try a few runs before adjusting again.


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## Board Doctor (Feb 1, 2018)

When I started around 30 years ago I don’t think anyone had even conceived of the duck stance as an option… and I‘ve never tried It. It certainly looks better for switch, and also recovering if you land too far back, but I don’t think it’d be as easy to carve on the heal edge. I rarely see people do it well, though obviously some can do it extremely well.

Once I got a directional board, my stance started going more directional as well.


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## speedjason (May 2, 2013)

I am shocked no one mentioned this. OP can have all kinds of angles on the fly.








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## LoveyourbodyLarry (Nov 9, 2021)

I’ve always rode what I call “directional duck”, but within the past few years switched to true twin duck, (+12/-12), even though I ride a directional board and never ride switch. To me it boils down to comfort and power.

When I’m just standing naturally, my bodies natural position is duck footed, so to lock my feet in any other position just feels unnatural in my knees and hips and I feel like I have less control. When in my bodies neutral position I feel like I have more freedom to move around and weight the board however I want to.

Once I switched to full duck stance I felt I was also able to put a lot more power and drive into my riding. My purely anecdotal and unscientific analogy is powerlifting. When I’m doing heavy deadlifts and squats, and really driving through my legs, my feet aren’t straight, they’re duck footed. To me it’s the most stable and powerful position.


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## SEWiShred (Jan 19, 2019)

Donutz said:


> Actually, it literally can hurt. I was trying out +/+ last winter and ended up tweaking my knee.


 +1 for this. Maybe I'm just getting old but I tried ++ and it hurt.


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## Donutz (May 12, 2010)

PalmerFreak said:


> Thanks for the info - I don’t need another knee injury at my age.
> 
> I was planning on rotating the bindings to +/+ and seeing how it feels on my living room floor before even attempting something on the hill.


If I had the time and the inclination, I'd set aside a day to do this. Adjust the bindings by a degree or two at a time and try it. Beginner slope would be ideal.


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## WigMar (Mar 17, 2019)

Donutz said:


> If I had the time and the inclination, I'd set aside a day to do this. Adjust the bindings by a degree or two at a time and try it. Beginner slope would be ideal.


Yeah, I progressed into ++ degree by degree on the greens and blues. I think I started at +0 or +3 on the back foot at first. 

I really think going ++ reduced stress on my back knee. I like to drive my back knee forward into turns, and I do a lot of center flexing. Duck always had my back knee twisted in a way that made that harder and more fatiguing. Listen to your body and riding style, and follow what feels good.


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## BoardieK (Dec 21, 2015)

WigMar said:


> Yeah, I progressed into ++ degree by degree on the greens and blues. I think I started at +0 or +3 on the back foot at first.
> 
> I really think going ++ reduced stress on my back knee. I like to drive my back knee forward into turns, and I do a lot of center flexing. Duck always had my back knee twisted in a way that made that harder and more fatiguing. Listen to your body and riding style, and follow what feels good.


Exactly what I found, was always straining inside of rear knee trying to rotate further forwards. Ended up at 30/21.


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## kieloa (Sep 20, 2019)

Usually when you are freeriding you have to ride different type of surfaces (powder, hardpack, ice etc). I find that negave angles on back binding helps with my stability when powder suddenly changes to hardpack.

I only ride ++ when im freeriding if i know that there's only powder. And because youncan never be 100% sure.. My backfoot stays in -6.


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## Etienne (Apr 2, 2021)

WigMar said:


> Yeah, I progressed into ++ degree by degree on the greens and blues. I think I started at +0 or +3 on the back foot at first.
> 
> I really think going ++ reduced stress on my back knee. I like to drive my back knee forward into turns, and I do a lot of center flexing. Duck always had my back knee twisted in a way that made that harder and more fatiguing. Listen to your body and riding style, and follow what feels good.


Yeah I've tried a lot of setups in my life, some more or less consciously and one thing is sure, the good ones feel good right from the first turn.


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## HometownZero (3 mo ago)

I have a question for the guys that ride duck in this thread. Do you not tuck the knee the way that Wolken describes in this video? 



 or like Xavier does here (but it looks a little less extreme) 



 Do you just ride more sideways?

I ask partly because I struggle with that move even if I move up to +6 on the backfoot. It feels like you let your knee fall inward which is supposed to be a huge no no when you squat in weight lifting. If I tried to do that with a negative angle I imagine that could be the end of my knee. Maybe I'm just inflexible or misunderstood the movement?


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## Kevington (Feb 8, 2018)

You can tuck it a bit with a negative angle on the back foot but it is twisting the knee and hip joints more so it depends how flexible you are. I do it with -3 on the back foot because it feels good but it gets sore if I push it. It allows you to flex the board but thats also possible without tucking the knee. The more positive your stance the more your hips and shoulders rotate towards the nose of the board. If you watch Wolken he is swinging his hips side to side with each turn like a skier (someone had to say it). If you have a duck stance you move your pelvis forwards and backwards to put your weight over each edge. This means you can also do the same going switch.


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## HometownZero (3 mo ago)

Kevington said:


> You can tuck it a bit with a negative angle on the back foot but it is twisting the knee and hip joints more so it depends how flexible you are. I do it with -3 on the back foot because it feels good but it gets sore if I push it. It allows you to flex the board but thats also possible without tucking the knee. The more positive your stance the more your hips and shoulders rotate towards the nose of the board. If you watch Wolken he is swinging his hips side to side with each turn like a skier (someone had to say it). If you have a duck stance you move your pelvis forwards and backwards to put your weight over each edge. This means you can also do the same going switch.


When you say you move your pelvis forwards and backwards which axis are we talking about? Forward and backward along the length of the board or across?


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## Kevington (Feb 8, 2018)

Across.


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## Etienne (Apr 2, 2021)

I'm not a fan of Wolken form at all… What De le Rue does is a bit different, he moves his pelvis between his knees rotating a bit, the knees remain pretty square, not clanging his knees together. He is a 0 backfoot rider btw.

I try not to do it with duck stance, but do it a bit unconsciously, always done it… but oterwise I try to remain pretty aligned and low, indeed with my pelvis closer to the board when I can, I feel more stable this way and much more powerful on my backfoot.


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## Board Doctor (Feb 1, 2018)

HometownZero said:


> I ask partly because I struggle with that move even if I move up to +6 on the backfoot. It feels like you let your knee fall inward which is supposed to be a huge no no when you squat in weight lifting.


I actually move nose to tail... 

1) Initiate over the front foot
2) Centered through the apex, while compressing and tucking the rear knee in to tighten the turn and also load the board
3) Releasing off the tail

Old school.


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## RallySoob (11 mo ago)

+15/-15 is what I have always rode since day 1... suits me well because I like to ride both directions often. I don't have any issues carving at high or low speed, i do tree runs and park too. I just can't imagine anything else myself. And I also have knee issues, have had surgeries. No issues riding this way for me. it would be hard to get me to try anything different


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## Yeahti87 (Jan 17, 2019)

I don’t tuck the knee with any variation of duck angles like 24/-6 in this picture. While riding moderate ++ like 30/9 I also keep the knees more like Xavier. Tucking the knee feels bad and unstable for me but I don’t have a problem with the hips.


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