# Morton's Toe (longer second toe) and Boot Pain



## ridethecliche (Feb 27, 2019)

Have you had the boots heat molded? They could likely do that and put a small cap on your toe so there's a tiny bit more room for it. 

Depending on how bad it is, you can add a little material on the insole under the joint of your second toe which should make it curl in the boot. Could give you the hair of space you need.


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## Wiredsport (Sep 16, 2009)

jsil said:


> I always rode boots too big for me, but with some ski bootfitting help and Wiredsport I sized down from 9.5 to 8 (25.5 mondo perf fit in ski boots). I had some k2 maysis 8s last season that fit well, but the liner wouldn't get tight enough around my skinny calves. Went with Burton Ions in 8 this season and the liners are fantastic, but they are too tight on my second toe. They hurt every day and I'm developing calluses on the tips of my second toes. I'm afraid that a 8.5 would be too loose (except on the second toes).
> 
> What's the solution? Any advice would be great!
> 
> Thanks!


Hi jsil,
I will be happy to help. Did we get your barefoot measurements? We should do that first. The 25.5 that you mentioned for ski boots is size 7.5 US in ski and snowboard boots. Lets get your length and width measurements for both feet and see how we fare.

Please measure your feet using this method:

Kick your heel (barefoot please, no socks) back against a wall. Mark the floor exactly at the tip of your toe (the one that sticks out furthest - which toe this is will vary by rider). Measure from the mark on the floor to the wall. That is your foot length and is the only measurement that you will want to use. Measure in centimeters if possible, but if not, take inches and multiply by 2.54 (example: an 11.25 inch foot x 2.54 = 28.57 centimeters). For width please place the inside (medial side) of your foot against a wall. Please then measure from the wall out to the widest point on the lateral (outside) of your foot.


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## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

jsil said:


> I always rode boots too big for me, but with some ski bootfitting help and Wiredsport I sized down from 9.5 to 8 (25.5 mondo perf fit in ski boots). I had some k2 maysis 8s last season that fit well, but the liner wouldn't get tight enough around my skinny calves. Went with Burton Ions in 8 this season and the liners are fantastic, but they are too tight on my second toe. They hurt every day and I'm developing calluses on the tips of my second toes. I'm afraid that a 8.5 would be too loose (except on the second toes).
> 
> What's the solution? Any advice would be great!
> 
> Thanks!


I have a longer middle toe as well.
ThirtyTwo, Vans have been the best fit for me.

Burton = no.

Advice:
Dont worry about your foot measurement, try a few boots and pick the ones that fit* best regardless of the size.

*fit = snug (aka reasonably tight such that you feel mild pressure everywhere around your feet without specific pressure points), ZERO pain or foot numbness and zero heel lift.


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## jsil (Oct 9, 2018)

Wiredsport said:


> Hi jsil,
> I will be happy to help. Did we get your barefoot measurements? We should do that first. The 25.5 that you mentioned for ski boots is size 7.5 US in ski and snowboard boots. Lets get your length and width measurements for both feet and see how we fare.
> 
> Please measure your feet using this method:
> ...


Measurements below:

length 25.7 cm
width 10.1 cm




F1EA said:


> I have a longer middle toe as well.
> ThirtyTwo, Vans have been the best fit for me.
> 
> Burton = no.
> ...


My second toe (pointer toe?) is the longest one. Thirty Two didn't seem to work as well for me and Vans were OK.


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## Wiredsport (Sep 16, 2009)

Hi jsil,

25.7 cm is mondopoint 260 or size US in snowboard boots. 10.1 cm is an EE width requires a very specific Wide boot. Standard width boots would not provide a good fit. The key to a good fit for these specs will be matching both length and width. We should first confirm your measurements. If you would like to post up images of both your length and width measurements being taken for each foot I will be happy to have a look.

STOKED!


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## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

Wiredsport said:


> Hi jsil,
> 
> 25.7 cm is mondopoint 260 or size US in snowboard boots. 10.1 cm is an EE width requires a very specific Wide boot. Standard width boots would not provide a good fit. The key to a good fit for these specs will be matching both length and width. We should first confirm your measurements. If you would like to post up images of both your length and width measurements being taken for each foot I will be happy to have a look.
> 
> STOKED!


Hahaha another wide foot.
260mm is US8

Gotta say 99% of people struggling with boot fit have wide feet.


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## jsil (Oct 9, 2018)

Wiredsport, 

I think the US size was deleted. I assume that's 25.7 = 260 mondopoint = Size 8? Would regular boots rather than wide cause pain on the ends of my toes? Ive never really had pain on the sides and only minimal cramping on the bottom. I use custom insoles.

I went to a few boot fitters and they all said I had a wide forefoot but low volume ankle. In fact I was placed in a low volume narrow last ski boot in 25.5 for performance fit by two shops.


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## Wiredsport (Sep 16, 2009)

Hi Jsil,

Not sure what happened there. 25.7 cm is mondopoint 260 or size US size 8 in snowboard boots. Yes, that will always cause toe pain. Create a toebox shaped arc with your left hand. Now push all fingers of your right hand into that left hand arc with the fingers tightly together . No problem. Now do the same but spread your fingers apart. See what happens at the outside fingers? There is no room for them and they jam into the arc. A boot that is too narrow will always be too short at the outer toes as well.


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## jsil (Oct 9, 2018)

Yeah, strange as I had two respected bootfitters in town come up with the same fit.

As for the snowboard boots, I am in a 8 and my longest toe (morton's toe, second toe) is what is building up a nasty callus and hurts. That wouldn't be from a width issue but more a length issue, right? According to burtons chart, my 25.7cm length is the size 8 I'm in.

I do ride very agressively at speed and extreme edge angles (wide board and deep carves) which I'm sure exercebates it.


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## Wiredsport (Sep 16, 2009)

Yes, the second toe for sure, but all of the toes actually get affected. When there is no room for the outer toes the get forced inwards ad move and pressure the other toes. As you know pain is one of the characteristic features of Morton's, even without footwear do you have a double issue. EE width always needs the correct wide boot. We should really see your measurements.


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## jsil (Oct 9, 2018)

I have no pain normally, for me Morton's is just a toe length issue. When I'm home later, I'll take pictures and post them.

Thanks and happy holidays!


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## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

jsil said:


> Yeah, strange as I had two respected bootfitters in town come up with the same fit.
> 
> As for the snowboard boots, I am in a 8 and my longest toe (morton's toe, second toe) is what is building up a nasty callus and hurts. That wouldn't be from a width issue but more a length issue, right? According to burtons chart, my 25.7cm length is the size 8 I'm in.
> 
> I do ride very agressively at speed and extreme edge angles (wide board and deep carves) which I'm sure exercebates it.


You want a wide boot.
If two already confirmed you have a wide foot then... you have a wide foot. This should have been at the forefront of your discussion.

The shops went with low volume liner to somewhat simulate a wide boot. But if you want to get a boot that will fit with its stock liner... it should be wide.


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## jsil (Oct 9, 2018)

F1EA said:


> You want a wide boot.
> If two already confirmed you have a wide foot then... you have a wide foot. This should have been at the forefront of your discussion.
> 
> The shops went with low volume liner to somewhat simulate a wide boot. But if you want to get a boot that will fit with its stock liner... it should be wide.


You misunderstood I think. The ski boot shops put me in a narrow last with the standard liner (and insoles). They said that my heel and calf is so low volume I would swim in a wide.

My issue seems to be wide forefoot, narrow heel, low volume ankle and morton's toe. I've always had shoe fitment issues.


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## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

jsil said:


> You misunderstood I think. The ski boot shops put me in a narrow last with the standard liner (and insoles). They said that my heel and calf is so low volume I would swim in a wide.


Oh damn. Yes, i read it opposite.

I have narrow feet, and got a high volume liner in a regular boot. That works. But geez putting you in a narrow shell with normal liner is weird.

Looks like what you need is a wide boot with high volume or standard liner and then maybe add heel inserts (Cs Jbars etc). But... this is all complicated, so best to go step by step like Wiredsport is guiding you to.


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## compatibilizer (Nov 19, 2020)

jsil said:


> Yeah, strange as I had two respected bootfitters in town come up with the same fit.
> 
> As for the snowboard boots, I am in a 8 and my longest toe (morton's toe, second toe) is what is building up a nasty callus and hurts. That wouldn't be from a width issue but more a length issue, right? According to burtons chart, my 25.7cm length is the size 8 I'm in.
> 
> I do ride very agressively at speed and extreme edge angles (wide board and deep carves) which I'm sure exercebates it.


The problem is your boot size, Burton Ion is a good choice for your wide feet (the regular one, not the step on version).

Wide feet are wide around the tip of metatarsal bones, you can squeeze your toes together and fit into a narrow toebox so don't worry about that, where you need the width is around the ball of your foot, and that is where the Ion's are wider than most. I also have EE wide feet and I worn down 2 pairs of Burton Ions, so I know those boots very well. I loved them with passion but had to part ways when I switched to step on bindings. Unfortunately the step on version of Ion is nothing like the regular, in fact it is just a Photon Step On with speed laces.

The pain you're describing is commonly called "toe-bang" and it happens when you have a boot too long for your feet. Every time you alternate between your toe edge and heel edge, your feet slide forward and back inside the boot. The sliding forward ends abruptly when your longest toe crashes into the toebox. It is a very light impact so you may not feel it in the morning, but it keeps happening countless times over the day and eventually they start hurting. This is a serious problem that can lead to losing your toenail, believe me you don't want that. Second toe is more sensitive than your big toe so I feel your pain there..

This problem is easy to solve. You just need to constrain your feet lengthwise inside your boot, then it won't be able to slide forward and back. Your measurement suggests you should be in a size 7.5 boot at most, but since you mention riding fast and hard, I would recommend a US 7 for you. Forget about the Mondopoint chart given by the manufacturers, it is just an approximation, an overly-simplified conversion. It fails far too many times especially for intermediate/advanced riders like yourself. If you'd like to know more about my sizing methodology, you can click the link in my signature and read all about it. 

When you get inside a size 7 (believe me you can, and you will be very happy) your toes will touch the front end, your second toe may curl up a little but your big toe and your third toe will not curl up. Don't worry, you can ride like this all day just fine, in fact all your first three toes will be firmly pressing against the front and this is the most stable geometry to support your weight at the tip of your toes, so you're in luck. 

Heel hold J-bars inside the liner are very aggressive, unless you have skinny ankles they may hurt your heel until they pack out. Solution is removing the footbed to drop your heel down a little. You will find it still has great heel hold. After they pack out, you can insert the footbed again and it will tighten things back up. You will never have heel lift inside a properly sized Ion, none, zero. I loved how those boots clamped my heels down. Life liners pack out a lot (up to a full size) albeit slightly slower than most but it's not a big difference. Most liners pack out after 10 days of riding, both my Ion's packed out around 15 days, but they packed out more than average. 

In a nutshell, find a pair of Burton Ions in size 7 and be happy for the rest of their life.

PS: In no more than a few hours, my beloved friend @Wiredsport will be here confronting my suggestions. Unfortunately he is the appointed Mondopoint advocate in this forum, so I became his arch enemy. Click the link in my signature and read our dispute, then you can decide for yourself.


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## compatibilizer (Nov 19, 2020)

Wiredsport said:


> Yes, the second toe for sure, but all of the toes actually get affected. When there is no room for the outer toes the get forced inwards ad move and pressure the other toes. As you know pain is one of the characteristic features of Morton's, even without footwear do you have a double issue. EE width always needs the correct wide boot. We should really see your measurements.


OP says "I'm having pain at the tip of my second toe" and you're suggesting it's the outer toes squeezing it from the sides??
You just keep repeating the same sentences in every thread. Same analysis, same approach, over and over and over... 
You don't even use your brain anymore. You became a parrot, a one trick pony...


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## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

Bruh


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## compatibilizer (Nov 19, 2020)

Think about it though, the toe in question is the longest one and the pain is at the tip.
How can you blame other toes for squeezing that spot? He's just reacting without thinking.

The problem is clearly a length issue, not width.


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## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

compatibilizer said:


> Think about it though, the toe in question is the longest one and the pain is at the tip.
> How can you blame other toes for squeezing that spot? He's just reacting without thinking.
> 
> The problem is clearly a length issue, not width.


I take no sides lol

Anyways, important to start out with the full foot measurement. You would think most people realize if they have a wide foot, or have an idea how their own street shoes fit, but I'm usually surprised.

I've seen guys wearing a size 11 with half the front empty, sides bulging and still don't make the correlation that they have a wide foot when they go looking for snowboard boots.

Also, snowboard boot pain is weird. Difficult to know exactly what the issue is just from the pain. 

I just got a black toe last weekend. From wearing a too small shell/liner combo. I put my Intuition liners in US10.5 boots and my big toe on the left foot got destroyed. Put the same liner in a US11 shell and it is perfect. My right foot didnt get killed in the 10.5 because it is 1mm shorter (it still got hammered and hurt, but im not losing that toe nail. The left toe... it's slowly but surely gonna die). Also my other liner fits great in those 10.5 because has a little bit less volume and a softer toe (32 performance liner).

So... toe bang can be a boot too big (too long or too wide or both) so that your foot slides fwd and bangs. Or too small so that any pressure at the front it's the toe taking it against the shell.

I find Ions too wide at the front. So what you say makes sense too. They do feel wider at the front than most boots I try.
Also the front is kind of squared... if you look at Vans or ThirtyTwo, they have a more rounded toe cap. So when i try them it's a weird feeling of my long middle toe hitting the front, then a lot of room everywhere. That's why I've never owned Ions, and I try at least a pair every yr.


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## compatibilizer (Nov 19, 2020)

Thanks for sharing your genuine experience, this gives everybody valuable information that we can elaborate on, and is much more useful.

But you're right, just motivating people to measure their feet is valuable in it's own right. I don't see myself as an enemy to Wired, merely a critic. I just feel he needs it lately, maybe he'll understand and thank me later, who knows.. 

Lately I found out that instep volume is also a very important factor in toe bang, people with low insteps are more susceptible to it, and yes, high volume Intuition liners help a lot.

I just wish we had width and instep measurements published for snowboard boots. These are considered technical measurements in ski boots but not in ours. I understand they need their boots performing more, but the gap is closing with step-in/step-on systems.

I took length measurements from several boots with a simple gadget called "telescoping gage" and it's been very useful in devising my sizing methodology. Same could be used to measure and compare the width and instep measurements too. It's easy to measure the width, since what to look for is pretty obvious in the boot, widest distance around the forefoot.

What to measure for instep is also clear, shortest diagonal distance between heel and instep when the boots are laced at "medium" tightness. The problem is defining where that "medium" tightness is, since we don't use latches to tighten the boot.


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## Wiredsport (Sep 16, 2009)

compatibilizer said:


> OP says "I'm having pain at the tip of my second toe" and you're suggesting it's the outer toes squeezing it from the sides??
> You just keep repeating the same sentences in every thread. Same analysis, same approach, over and over and over...
> You don't even use your brain anymore. You became a parrot, a one trick pony...


Hi compatibilizer,

Based on jsil's measurements that I requested, he has found that he has an EE width foot. If correct, that is a big deal and it will need to be addressed. Width is every bit as important as length in boot sizing and one cannot be considered without the other. A foot that is too wide for a boot will commonly result in too short a boot at the outer toes. That is a reality of geometry. We are in the process of confirming that and his other measurements. In his initial post he mentioned that he is considering a larger boot. jsil also mentioned that he has visited two bootfitters. He also wrote that he has already had a good fit last year in size 8 K2 Maysis snowboard boots. That is a lot of info and it requires a deeper look. 

Having sized a lot of feet, I know when we don't yet have enough information and when that is the case, I request it. I try to look at each sizing request as a unique situation and that often requires a little patience and not rushing to a conclusion.

So far I have given some info based on the data provided. If you have read these threads then you know that we very often uncover some issues with measurements or foot specifics. If we need to clear those up to proceed then we do that. Eventually my goal is to help inform the rider and hopefully solve their issue.

Right now we are in the process of doing that. 

One side note, toe calluses are most often a result of too small a boot in the problem area (constant pressure), blackened toenails are most often a result of too large a boot and result from foot movement. 

STOKED!


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## compatibilizer (Nov 19, 2020)

Good comments, but he will not be having width issues in a Burton Ion, that's all..


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## Wiredsport (Sep 16, 2009)

We don't have the required specifics yet for jsil but the Burton Ion is no solution for an EE foot. It is not a wide or an unusual boot in that respect.


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## compatibilizer (Nov 19, 2020)

How do you know? Do you have wide feet? Did you use it? Did you measure it? How?


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## Wiredsport (Sep 16, 2009)

I have personally had two pair of Ions over the years and have helped people in person and online with the fitting of many hundreds of pairs. It is not a wide boot at all. I have similar experience with every major lineage of boot. Boots are the basis of a snowboarding kit. We have to get this right for riders because all other gear choices stem from boot choices. For that reason I consider it my responsibility to be informed there. Mondopoint is the key to that. Mondopoint size insures not only a great fit of the boots, but will allow the correct sizing of bindings and finally the optimal board width.

So far in this thread you have suggested a full size under Mondopoint without ever having confirmed a single measurement. I don't agree with that approach.

Thanks for your contributions!


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## compatibilizer (Nov 19, 2020)

There you go again, a broken record playing the same tune over and over...
I don't want to get into another endless argument with you, but know this;

Burton's designated "wide" options in boots like Ruler, Photon, etc. are just a slight liner modification, they have the same exact shell.
Burton also has boots with a wide shell and regular liner. They are Ion and SLX

These wider shell models work better with wide feet, I know because I tried them all and I have wide feet. 
The designated wides like Photon has too little cushioning around the sides so they have their own problems. Wider shell options on the other hand, don't have this problem.

SLX shell geometry is just like the Ion but with a wider toebox. More often than not, you don't need a wide toebox for wide feet. But some people can have weird feet shapes so it's nice to have the option. Both these shell are wide enough around the ball of foot, which is where wide feet needs it. 

Do your research, it's not just me saying this. I will delete my account if you can find a single comment on them being tight around the forefoot (not toebox, ankles or calf).


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## compatibilizer (Nov 19, 2020)

_I know that you like to believe, what you're doing here will eventually steer the industry in the right direction. 
But it's not working brother, you tried far too hard for far too long, nothing has changed... 
We should've started doing the heavy lifting ourselves way earlier._


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## compatibilizer (Nov 19, 2020)

Measure the boots and post the results. There's light at the end of this tunnel.


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## Wiredsport (Sep 16, 2009)

Hi Comptibilzer,

Mondopoint has been the industry standard for decades and our role is simply to assist people in finding the best fit using this excellent system.

In jsils original post, he had written that when he sized down to his Mondopoint size (25.7 cm, 260 Mondopint, size 8 Boot) and that this was good fit but had an issue with tightening around his calf. 

You then suggested size 7. A size smaller than Mondopoint and a size smaller than Burton's suggestion.

I am OK with that. You have made your suggestion. You needed no more information. I personally don't have enough info yet to make an informed suggestion. If jsil is interested a gathering a little more info and would still value my suggestion I will be here to assist.

STOKED!


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## compatibilizer (Nov 19, 2020)

I actually did address all his concerns, but you clearly didn't read all I've written. Absolutely confirm his measurements, convince him to post feet pictures. After all that's your signature move, and it is beneficial so go ahead. I don't think there will be any problems with his measurements though, it's not rocket science and very well documented in this forum, thanks to your perseverance. 

If the measurements are right, he'll find salvation in size 7 Burton Ions.

I'd also like to point out that;
He will have the same performance fit in a size 7 as the one you're having in your size 11.5 boots with your 295mm feet.

You worship "the dumb chart" only because it puts you into the performance fit you desire. In practice that's just because you have large feet. The dumb chart fit gets looser and looser as you go down sizes, this has been confirmed with my earlier measurements.


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## Wiredsport (Sep 16, 2009)

Hi Compatibilizer,

Yes, you have many assertions and they have lead you to suggest a size 7 boot for jsil. You needed no more info to form your suggestion. You have given your advice. It is not one that I would make based on the measurements that we have at this point. 

STOKED!


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## compatibilizer (Nov 19, 2020)

Yeah, he had already given all the information required, he's an informed patient. Now we wait for you to confirm his feet measurement. 

Looking forward to see what number you'll come up with. I put my money on a 7.5


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## compatibilizer (Nov 19, 2020)

Also, I make no assertions in my sizing methodology, it's all based on measurements.

Your method on the other hand, is solely based on assumptions. You *assume* that snowboard boot manufacturers design according to Mondopoint standard, but my *measurements* already proved that wrong.

I challenged you many times to support your assumptions with numbers, but you failed to post a single measurement yet (even though you're an online retailer and sell snowboard boots for a living). That's suspicious.


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## Wiredsport (Sep 16, 2009)

Mondopoint is entirely measurement based. The measurement of the foot only. Never the boot itself or any portion of the boot itself. Measuring, the last, the shell, the liners, those are all the features of the sizing systems that Mondopoint has replaced. We would never suggest that.

Measurements of the boot parts are entirely managed by the the manufacturer of the boot itself. They guarantee the boot to fit all feet that fall within the 5mm size range of each mondopoint size at the correct width.

That is the beauty of Mondopoint. The consumer ends up with a highly simplified means of getting the correct boot size and the manufacturers are held to a much higher standard as well. That is why you will see Mondopoint sizing on every manufacturer site.

Here it is from Burton's site:


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## compatibilizer (Nov 19, 2020)

Good example,

Why do you think it says "Conversion Chart" at the top, and the US sizes are shown at the top row?

Wouldn't Mondopoint be at the top row if the chart was converting Mondopoint to the other sizing standards?


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## compatibilizer (Nov 19, 2020)

Wiredsport said:


> Measurements of the boot parts are entirely managed by the the manufacturer of the boot itself. They guarantee the boot to fit all feet that fall within the 5mm size range of each mondopoint size at the correct width.


So you're saying this; "Even though the Mondopoint sizes move in 5mm increments and the shell sizes move in 4.2mm increments, that's the design intent of the manufacturer."

And your theory suggests US 8 is designed for a 260mm foot. There is 269mm space inside the shell, so the manufacturer leaves 9mm extra space for a 260mm foot.
On the other hand US 11 is designed for a 290mm foot. There is 294mm space inside the shell, so the manufacturer leaves only a 4mm extra for the larger 290mm foot.

How does that make sense? That's an inverse proportion. Shouldn't it be the exact opposite?


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## Wiredsport (Sep 16, 2009)

Boots are highly considered combination of shell, free space, liner, insert, internal lacing apparatus, and in some cases harness apparatus or fit accessories. All of these must be structured to create a boot that fits the 5 mm size range for each Mondopoint size. The manufacturers spend a lot of time and expense making sure that all of these components meld into a finished product that will hit each 5mm range. 

They then all put the same Mondopoint sizing chart forward as their sizing suggestions. Your measurements have lead you to suggest a Burton boot in a size (chart above) that Burton suggests for 2 sizes smaller that jsil's provided measurements.


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## compatibilizer (Nov 19, 2020)

In a size 7, jsil will have the exact same amount of extra length inside the boot as you're having in yours.

You're happy with your boots right? You wouldn't even consider any more length or any less. Then why wouldn't jsil be happy with the same?


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## compatibilizer (Nov 19, 2020)

Wiredsport said:


> ... Your measurements have lead you to suggest a Burton boot in a size (chart above) that Burton suggests for 2 sizes smaller that jsil's provided measurements...


Yes man, I'm saying the chart is broken. I've been calling it "the dumb chart" since my first post in this forum. Didn't you still understand that?
I already proved it to you... Jesus....


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## Wiredsport (Sep 16, 2009)

Yes, you are saying that


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## compatibilizer (Nov 19, 2020)

Not just saying, I'm also showing it to you, but you insist on your willful blindness...


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## jsil (Oct 9, 2018)

compatibilizer said:


> Wide feet are wide around the tip of metatarsal bones, you can squeeze your toes together and fit into a narrow toebox so don't worry about that, where you need the width is around the ball of your foot, and that is where the Ion's are wider than most. I also have EE wide feet and I worn down 2 pairs of Burton Ions, so I know those boots very well. I loved them with passion but had to part ways when I switched to step on bindings. Unfortunately the step on version of Ion is nothing like the regular, in fact it is just a Photon Step On with speed laces.
> 
> The pain you're describing is commonly called "toe-bang" and it happens when you have a boot too long for your feet. Every time you alternate between your toe edge and heel edge, your feet slide forward and back inside the boot. The sliding forward ends abruptly when your longest toe crashes into the toebox. It is a very light impact so you may not feel it in the morning, but it keeps happening countless times over the day and eventually they start hurting. This is a serious problem that can lead to losing your toenail, believe me you don't want that. Second toe is more sensitive than your big toe so I feel your pain there.."


There is absolutely no way I'd fit into a 7.5 or a 7. My toes are practically curled already in an 8.



compatibilizer said:


> If the measurements are right, he'll find salvation in size 7 Burton Ions.


When standing straight up in 8s all of my toes are against the end and the longest ones are curled. No way I'm riding in a 7.5 or 7.


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## jsil (Oct 9, 2018)

@Wiredsport -- Sorry for the delay, back home now and took these shots. Don't mind that second toe from the left it has a bit of a blister from riding.


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## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

That foot is wide. No doubt about it.



The best thing about Mondo sizing, is that it gives you a good baseline. Different boots may fit differently, different people are willing to endure different fits. And you may have done an error in your measurements. All happens. 

Mondo sizing you have an IDEA of what your foot size is. Then you go from there. I never, never, ever say "your foot is 290mm you SHOULD be in a size 11 boot". Instead, i say your foot is 290mm, that is your mondo size. Plus the width and so on. But that's the idea. Now... you go try a 285, 290 and a 295. Whichever fits best, regardless of the size, is the boot you SHOULD be in.

Wiredsport kind of says the same thing lol. Except he's a bit more liability-aware (aka professional) and says 290mm is your mondopoint size, 290mm is shown in US11 boots. In a way... it's up to you.


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## compatibilizer (Nov 19, 2020)

That blister on your outer toe, is because of the friction, your foot is sliding in the boot. 

Seems like your boots already started packing out and it will get worse over time.

Believe it or not you need a 7, it will pack out to fit like how your 8s felt out of the box, you can remove the footbed until that happens.


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## jsil (Oct 9, 2018)

There is absolutely no way I can even fit my foot into a 7. You seem extremely aggressive and you're wrong about this. If these boots have already started to pack out, then why are my toes crushed just standing in them? 

Not only are you overly aggressive with ravings about size, you're also wrong here.


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## compatibilizer (Nov 19, 2020)

Ok it's your decision, you'll get your next boots in a size 7.


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## compatibilizer (Nov 19, 2020)

When you're in a riding position, your heel pulls back so does your toes. Your toes will press hard if you stand up straight in snowboarding boots, they have forward lean built into them so it pushes you forward if you stand up straight. You should only evaluate a fit in a riding position with your knees bent. I don't stand up straight even when I'm walking in my boots, always knees bent, so don't worry about what happens when you stand up straight.

If you want a boot that is comfortable to walk around, you want a boot that's painful to ride in.


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## jsil (Oct 9, 2018)

compatibilizer said:


> Ok it's your decision, you'll get your next boots in a size 7.





compatibilizer said:


> Ok it's your decision, you'll get your next boots in a size 7.


When I'm in the riding position my long toe is still bent and crushed in the end. It's not toe bang it's already on the end. Your assumptions are wrong. You're the only person I've ever say or write that your toes should be curled and crushed in the boot.


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## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

jsil said:


> Measurements below:
> 
> length 25.7 cm
> width 10.1 cm
> ...


Yep, ThirtyTwo does not make wide boots. 

Seems like you are a wide US8. Use that as a baseline and try a few boots. 7.5, 8 and 8.5. 

I think "Asian Fit" = wide at the forefoot. Try that too.

Last resort: get the boots that apparently fit best. Then get a custom liner custom fit to you. This will not be cheap, but... would solve it all. Maybe. Hah


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## jsil (Oct 9, 2018)

F1EA said:


> Yep, ThirtyTwo does not make wide boots.
> 
> Seems like you are a wide US8. Use that as a baseline and try a few boots. 7.5, 8 and 8.5.
> 
> ...


Haha my experience is definitely a "maybe" -- I tried on some wide boots (synapse?) in 7.5/8/8.5 last season and my heel was swimming. I have a friend with the longer second toes and a very similarly sized foot and rides 8.5 ions and doesn't have any trouble. I know that it's not exact so not a good comparison, but the best I have to go on really. I thought that these would pack a but more length wise so my second toe wouldn't be slammed, but I guess that's not the case.


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## compatibilizer (Nov 19, 2020)

Classic rookie mistake, getting toe bang, assuming boots are too small and going a size up. 
I may have overestimated your experience level.


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## compatibilizer (Nov 19, 2020)

You're better off with a 7.5


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## ridethecliche (Feb 27, 2019)

Try ride boots as well. I've actually found that they help with narrow heels and their heel hold system is pretty dialed in. Not sure how they'd work for your width though, so maybe give it a try?

Re longer 2nd toe.
One thing you can try is adding a little bit of foam under the joint of your second toe. This will cause it to bend a little and might make it about the same length as your big toe. I'd find the spot on the insole where that toe sits and tape some foam on there then cover it with a tiny bit of tape.

I'm also going to be a bit of a contrarian here and say that I think toe bang can also happen if you have poor heel/ankle hold in a boot and your entire foot/liner moves forward in the shell. It doesn't mean the boot is too big in terms of length and size, it just means that there's too much volume up top. Not sure what others think about that.


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## jsil (Oct 9, 2018)

compatibilizer said:


> Classic rookie mistake, getting toe bang, assuming boots are too small and going a size up.
> I may have overestimated your experience level.


I do not have toe bang. You have reading comprehension issues. Please stay off this thread so I can get advice from people that aren't completely full of shit.


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## compatibilizer (Nov 19, 2020)

You have toe bang...


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## compatibilizer (Nov 19, 2020)

Please buy an 8.5 then. I'd love to see you eat your words in the earliest.


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## jsil (Oct 9, 2018)

I tried a ride boot and it wasn't great, I think it's the width. Heel hold was great on them though.

Good suggestion on the foam, I don't know how that will work though as I'm already riding with that second toe a bit bent just to fit the size 8 boot.its the constan not pressure on the tip that's cause long the pain and that wouldn't alleviate that.


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## jsil (Oct 9, 2018)

compatibilizer said:


> You have toe bang...


Can you please stop commenting? I'd like to keep this a constructive discussion. Thanks.


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## ridethecliche (Feb 27, 2019)

jsil said:


> I tried a ride boot and it wasn't great, I think it's the width. Heel hold was great on them though.
> 
> Good suggestion on the foam, I don't know how that will work though as I'm already riding with that second toe a bit bent just to fit the size 8 boot.its the constan not pressure on the tip that's cause long the pain and that wouldn't alleviate that.


You said constant pressure on the tip right? The foam under the joint would make the toe slightly shorter. You're likely having more issues when you're not purposefully keeping it bent because that's an unnatural think to be doing all the time. The other thing you can do for the time being is to get a small heel lift which will pull your foot back slightly as well. 

Do you have insoles already? If you have collapsing arches or flat feet, an insole will help keep the length of your foot at its lowest.


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## jsil (Oct 9, 2018)

ridethecliche said:


> You said constant pressure on the tip right? The foam under the joint would make the toe slightly shorter. You're likely having more issues when you're not purposefully keeping it bent because that's an unnatural think to be doing all the time. The other thing you can do for the time being is to get a small heel lift which will pull your foot back slightly as well.
> 
> Do you have insoles already? If you have collapsing arches or flat feet, an insole will help keep the length of your foot at its lowest.


That makes sense. I'll give it a shot. Thanks.

I do have custom insoles.


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## WigMar (Mar 17, 2019)

ridethecliche said:


> The other thing you can do for the time being is to get a small heel lift which will pull your foot back slightly as well.


Yes this. I couldn't fit my toes into my boots without small heel lifts under my insoles. A little lift pulls the toes back just enough. I built up lifts under the insole with adhesive foam until I hit the money spot. There's more lift on my back foot than front.


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## jsil (Oct 9, 2018)

WigMar said:


> Yes this. I couldn't fit my toes into my boots without small heel lifts under my insoles. A little lift pulls the toes back just enough. I built up lifts under the insole with adhesive foam until I hit the money spot. There's more lift on my back foot than front.


How would lifting your heel pull the toes back? Wouldn't that push them forward? May just be tired and not thinking straight but can't seem to wrap my head around that one.


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## WigMar (Mar 17, 2019)

It works the same way bending your knees pulls your toes back. Give it a try with some cardboard or something. It really helped me squeeze into 11's.


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## ridethecliche (Feb 27, 2019)

Pulls them up and back. 

You're trying to take something horizontal ish and making it more like a diagonal. The diagonal is longer so more room.


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## jsil (Oct 9, 2018)

Understood. Let me give that a shot.


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## compatibilizer (Nov 19, 2020)

ridethecliche said:


> You said constant pressure on the tip right? The foam under the joint would make the toe slightly shorter. You're likely having more issues when you're not purposefully keeping it bent because that's an unnatural think to be doing all the time. The other thing you can do for the time being is to get a small heel lift which will pull your foot back slightly as well.
> 
> Do you have insoles already? If you have collapsing arches or flat feet, an insole will help keep the length of your foot at its lowest.


Your suggestions here are really good for a boot slightly tight, but mind you, you're 263mm and he's 254mm, you're both wearing a size 8. I know you're seeing the problem here but if you're doing this to give him another chance before he makes an expensive mistake, that's a smart move and I like your style.

PS: jsil I'm not talking to you.


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## Wiredsport (Sep 16, 2009)

jsil said:


> @Wiredsport -- Sorry for the delay, back home now and took these shots. Don't mind that second toe from the left it has a bit of a blister from riding.


Hi jsil,

Thanks for posting those images. This nicely confirms you earlier measurements. You are indeed right in the middle of he 5mm range for Mondopoint 260 or size 8 US in snowboard boots. That part is textbook.

You look like you are right at the break point between and E and an EE width. This definitely requires a wide boot but which width to go with? 10.0 cm is an EE width, 9.9 mm is E width. The issue is that no one makes an EE width boot so we need to suggest EEE width for riders who measure EE. That would be overly wide for you. Salomon makes 2 amazing E width boots and that is where I would start. I can't tell from your image if you are 9.9 (which would be E) or 10.0 (which would be EE). In any event, you have been riding standard D width, so this will help. 

The Salomon Dialogue Wide and Synapse Wide will be great choices in size 8. I know these boots really well and the toebox has a great offset arc that will be a wonderful match for your Morton's toe. I think you will like the cuff and find the heel is workable. You don't have the easiest feet, so we are really looking for the best middle ground. I think you will be very pleased.

STOKED!


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## compatibilizer (Nov 19, 2020)

Dude, I'm like Galileo saying the earth revolves around sun and you guys are like the church trying to execute me. 

I was literally inside those size 8 Ion's 2 days ago for the better half of an hour. Carpet carving, jumping, lunges the whole deal. They fit perfect without issues and I'm 269mm long 108mm wide. Go figure...


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## compatibilizer (Nov 19, 2020)

_jsil, I'm re-posting this here just for you, I am not offended by your rudeness and understand your opposition, you may not get it but I'm genuinely trying to help you out. _
--
Found an interesting article published last year, it really is an interesting read.

Soft Sells: How Snowboard Boots Got Stuck in the Past

This one paragraph I found particularly interesting so I'll quote it here;
_
“Snowboard boots had revolutionary design updates that happened more than a decade ago and since then, they’ve kind of stopped evolving,” says Michael Fox, a longtime snowboard boot developer who’s worked for K2, Burton, Rome, ThirtyTwo, DC and most recently Adidas. “Burton redesigned their boot last in 2001/2002. That last is still the benchmark for the current snowboard boot fit today. I’ve seen other boot categories like ski, mountaineering, alpine touring, and even running shoes, that have really advanced their fit and moved in a new direction. Snowboarding has not. The fit of snowboarding boots has not evolved beyond what we created in 2002.”
“It’s just a knockoff sneaker,” he laments. “The truth is nobody has recreated the whole structure from scratch from a pure snowboarding standpoint.”_

This guy is practically saying "We designed the Burton last in 2002 and it hasn't seen an update ever since. We designed it over a sneaker last"

This definitely proves my point again, snowboard boots are not following Mondopoint standard, they're designed around US sizing. 
@Wiredsport is feeding you all with a spoon 24/7 while he enjoys the increasing sales numbers in his online shop.
WAKE UP!!!


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## wrathfuldeity (Oct 5, 2007)

compatibilizer said:


> _jsil, I'm re-posting this here just for you, I am not offended by your rudeness and understand your opposition, you may not get it but I'm genuinely trying to help you out. _
> --
> Found an interesting article published last year, it really is an interesting read.
> 
> ...


Galileo are making new boots for the misfits?


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## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

compatibilizer said:


> _jsil, I'm re-posting this here just for you, I am not offended by your rudeness and understand your opposition, you may not get it but I'm genuinely trying to help you out. _
> --
> Found an interesting article published last year, it really is an interesting read.
> 
> ...


Not sure exactly what part of your point that article "proves" or how it relates in any way to boot sizing, but having unfortunately skimmed over it....... I fail to see anything more than a drunken ramble with a few photos of hardboots....

I feel sorry for whoever reads that whole article.

That said, I don't care about mondo sizing.


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## jsil (Oct 9, 2018)

F1EA said:


> Not sure exactly what part of your point that article "proves" or how it relates in any way to boot sizing, but having unfortunately skimmed over it....... I fail to see anything more than a drunken ramble with a few photos of hardboots....
> 
> I feel sorry for whoever reads that whole article.
> 
> That said, I don't care about mondo sizing.


I feel like this guy is mentally unstable...


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## compatibilizer (Nov 19, 2020)

I sometimes think that could be the case too.


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## compatibilizer (Nov 19, 2020)

F1EA said:


> Not sure exactly what part of your point that article "proves" or how it relates in any way to boot sizing, but having unfortunately skimmed over it....... I fail to see anything more than a drunken ramble with a few photos of hardboots....
> 
> I feel sorry for whoever reads that whole article.
> 
> That said, I don't care about mondo sizing.


I found it really interesting, actually read it all in one go. Here is the part about sizing and not the build/materials:
_
“Burton redesigned their boot last in 2001/2002. That last is still the benchmark for the current snowboard boot fit today. I’ve seen other boot categories like ski, mountaineering, alpine touring, and even running shoes, that have really advanced their fit and moved in a new direction. Snowboarding has not. The fit of snowboarding boots has not evolved beyond what we created in 2002.”

_


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## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

compatibilizer said:


> I found it really interesting, actually read it all in one go. Here is the part about sizing and not the build/materials:
> _
> “Burton redesigned their boot last in 2001/2002. That last is still the benchmark for the current snowboard boot fit today. I’ve seen other boot categories like ski, mountaineering, alpine touring, and even running shoes, that have really advanced their fit and moved in a new direction. Snowboarding has not. The fit of snowboarding boots has not evolved beyond what we created in 2002.”
> 
> _


1) that "proves" nothing.
2) Burton has countless boots, then countless liners; this season alone. All fit differently. Let alone since 2002...

I've been using size 10.5 sneakers for over 20yrs. Maybe it's time for the sneaker to evolve...


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## compatibilizer (Nov 19, 2020)

That's exactly my point, you reference the sneaker size in US sizing system, not Mondopoint


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## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

compatibilizer said:


> That's exactly my point, you reference the sneaker size in US sizing system, not Mondopoint


Yeah because im in america. If i was Japanese, i'd be wearing 28.5cm for over 20yrs.

But the sizing is just a baseline number. Be it US, UK, EUR or mondo. It's very easy to get an idea of your size at home based on mondo. Even if the boots are not designed to mondo. I cannot measure myself at home for US sizing....

As anecdotal info, I think only Salomon designs to mondo from the ground up. Maybe Ride as well. This would be cool to know.


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## jsil (Oct 9, 2018)

Has anyone with hard to fit feet tried intuition liners? It's an extra expense, but if it solves all the problems of a tough to fit foot in whatever size shell you have, sounds like a good idea.

My size 8 has about a finger and a half of space behind the heel shell fit.


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## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

jsil said:


> Has anyone with hard to fit feet tried intuition liners? It's an extra expense, but if it solves all the problems of a tough to fit foot in whatever size shell you have, sounds like a good idea.
> 
> My size 8 has about a finger and a half of space behind the heel shell fit.


Yea I have custom Intuition liners. Mine is a 280mm High Volume Luxury liner in a US11 (290mm) ThirtyTwo shell. But I went to the Intuition HQ and we had all their liners, sizes and accessories available with their pro boot-fitter...

That same 280mm liner is like 1inch longer than the stock 290mm liner so... sizing is far from precise. It's also way too tight lengthwise on my US10.5 (285mm) ThirtyTwo shells. I think I can fit with a Medium Volume 280 on the US10.5 shells... 

For you... maybe a 250mm Low Volume Luxury liner in US8 E width boots. But then you'd likely have to add foam Cbars on the ankles and a heat-fit for the forefoot. But this is a guesstimate. Hard to say without trial and error. Given the price of the liners, the heat-molding process and the sizing discrepancies... your best bet is probably to just go to a good shop with a proper boot-fitter. Try a few boots and get heat fitted all at once. OR get US8 Ion Wide THEN go to a proper boot-fitter... or do the fitting yourself if you are handy with foam, duct-tape, a cutter and an oven....

Good thing about the liners is that you can easily run through 2-3 shells with the same liners before the liners are done.


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## jsil (Oct 9, 2018)

Do you think you could make an 8 boot non E work with these as they essentially mold to the boot and your foot? I really like the step on system for in resort, but I'd switch back to standard bindings again if I had to. I suppose I could try the eight liner in the step on, and if it didn't work, get a 8 E to use.

I like the look of the powerstrap version as I have narrow ankles and love the velcro in the ion life liners.


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## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

jsil said:


> Do you think you could make an 8 boot non E work with these as they essentially mold to the boot and your foot? I really like the step on system for in resort, but I'd switch back to standard bindings again if I had to. I suppose I could try the eight liner in the step on, and if it didn't work, get a 8 E to use.
> 
> I like the look of the powerstrap version as I have narrow ankles and love the velcro in the ion life liners.


It's tough to know. But they let you return them. So you could get 2 liners, say a 250mm low volume and a 250 Medium volume. Then you try them in the boots and see which fit best in your shells. Maybe the medium volume in the E boots and the LV in normal width boots or Asian fits.


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## robotfood99 (Mar 19, 2016)

compatibilizer said:


> This guy is practically saying "We designed the Burton last in 2002 and it hasn't seen an update ever since. We designed it over a sneaker last"
> 
> This definitely proves my point again, snowboard boots are not following Mondopoint standard, they're designed around US sizing.
> @Wiredsport is feeding you all with a spoon 24/7 while he enjoys the increasing sales numbers in his online shop.
> WAKE UP!!!


But you recommended those sneaker last based Burtons here. How that translates to Wired spooning us to increase his sales numbers is a little bit of a reach. Last I checked, we are free to shop anywhere with his input.

OP, I also have wide forefoot (11cm+) with narrow heels and ankles. My train of thought when looking for new boots is first find the best width/length fit with the insoles of your choice. Then do a heat mold with your insoles and toe caps (see below). The heel/ankle parts are easier to manage with plenty of aftermarket aids. 

Also, have you tried silicone toe caps? I benefit from toe separators myself but from your descriptions, you might try the caps. https://www.amazon.com/ZenToes-Pack-Gel-Toe-Protector/dp/B01N0C1QIA (This is the first search result Google spat out and I have no affiliation with it whatsoever.)


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## jsil (Oct 9, 2018)

robotfood99 said:


> But you recommended those sneaker last based Burtons here. How that translates to Wired spooning us to increase his sales numbers is a little bit of a reach. Last I checked, we are free to shop anywhere with his input.
> 
> OP, I also have wide forefoot (11cm+) with narrow heels and ankles. My train of thought when looking for new boots is first find the best width/length fit with the insoles of your choice. Then do a heat mold with your insoles and toe caps (see below). The heel/ankle parts are easier to manage with plenty of aftermarket aids.
> 
> Also, have you tried silicone toe caps? I benefit from toe separators myself but from your descriptions, you might try the caps. https://www.amazon.com/ZenToes-Pack-Gel-Toe-Protector/dp/B01N0C1QIA (This is the first search result Google spat out and I have no affiliation with it whatsoever.)


Thanks for your suggestion. I'll look into these caps, haven't seen them before. So do you get EEE width boots and use toe separators?


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## robotfood99 (Mar 19, 2016)

jsil said:


> Thanks for your suggestion. I'll look into these caps, haven't seen them before. So do you get EEE width boots and use toe separators?


I currently wear Burton Ion Wide and adidas Accera 3ST ADV. Both 260mm/US 8, both aren't technically EEE or even EE but fit me well enough after heat molding and use. I put Remind Cush insoles in both which I think help with the width and Morton's toe due to their firm arch support and wide(r) shape. Silicone separators keep my big toes from rubbing against the second, longer toes, which is a major discomfort for me when in snug fitting footwear. They do not affect the fit as far as I can tell.


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## ridethecliche (Feb 27, 2019)

For the intuition liners, would it make more sense to measure the length of the shell? I guess best to go to a boot fitter tbh.


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## jsil (Oct 9, 2018)

robotfood99 said:


> I currently wear Burton Ion Wide and adidas Accera 3ST ADV. Both 260mm/US 8, both aren't technically EEE or even EE but fit me well enough after heat molding and use. I put Remind Cush insoles in both which I think help with the width and Morton's toe due to their firm arch support and wide(r) shape. Silicone separators keep my big toes from rubbing against the second, longer toes, which is a major discomfort for me when in snug fitting footwear. They do not affect the fit as far as I can tell.


Thanks! How long is your foot? I guess being 1cm narrower than you (width 10.1 cm) and, I think, a similar length at 25.7 cm I may be able to get away with a regular ion heat molded (or with Intuition liner).

I may have to experiment with separators too... which do you use use?




ridethecliche said:


> For the intuition liners, would it make more sense to measure the length of the shell? I guess best to go to a boot fitter TBH.


Yeah, I have a friend in town at a shop who carries some intuitions if I choose to go that route I'll talk to him. I put my foot in the shell and had a finger and a half or so behind my heel.


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## robotfood99 (Mar 19, 2016)

jsil said:


> Thanks! How long is your foot? I guess being 1cm narrower than you (width 10.1 cm) and, I think, a similar length at 25.7 cm I may be able to get away with a regular ion heat molded (or with Intuition liner).
> 
> I may have to experiment with separators too... which do you use use?


I think I'm like 26.1 left and 26.0 right. Mondo 260 for sure. So 11+cm width has always been an issue for any footwear. I wear the current Ions in Wide and I felt a noticeable difference from my previous regular Ion Life Liners. 

Don't remember the brand of the separators but they are simple silicone wedges places between the toes, not over one like the caps and rings would go.


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## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

jsil said:


> Thanks! How long is your foot? I guess being 1cm narrower than you (width 10.1 cm) and, I think, a similar length at 25.7 cm I may be able to get away with a regular ion heat molded (or with Intuition liner).
> 
> I may have to experiment with separators too... which do you use use?
> 
> Yeah, I have a friend in town at a shop who carries some intuitions if I choose to go that route I'll talk to him. I put my foot in the shell and had a finger and a half or so behind my heel.


If they do carry liners, then it's a worthwhile try. You might be pressured to buy if you go through all the motions, but that will likely result in a prefect fit. Most Intuitions need a heat-mold as they simply do not fit (do not have any proper shape) out of the box. They have no open cell foam so nothing really compresses/reshapes unless heat-molded.

The whole finger behind shell gives you an idea how much volume you need to fill, but it doesn't say if the shell is properly sized (ie a Burton US8 - 260mm may not be the same as an Adidas US8, etc.) I also have 1.5 fingers in my US10.5 shells. So at least you're in the ballpark for Low/Med volume liner in terms of length.

But if you can go to the shop and try a 250 and a 260 (LV and MV) then you will know. Ski boots in general are more accurately-sized. Also, do not attempt to get the red pro snowboarding liner... that things is suuuuper stiff and very tall. Stick with the other ones.

My feeling is you'd be fine in the Ions or Salomon wide. Will have to add ankle foam, but... like Robot said, much easier thing to deal with than the other issues.


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## jsil (Oct 9, 2018)

Thanks for all the tips everyone. I had a few runs today (too busy due to holidays) with some dense foam under the heel of my insoles and it seemed to be better. I need more time to know for sure, but I'll work through each of these suggestions ending with custom Intuition liners if necessary.


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## jsil (Oct 9, 2018)

Wanted to update everyone on my progress. My boot from last season was a Size 8 K2 Maysis and worked better for me than any boot previous. I've had nothing been pain in the tip of my long second toe and blisters on all toes top, bottom, sides -- you name it-- with the Size 8 Ion Step On. I picked up (at full price... argh) a Size 8.5 Ion Step On and Medium binding and had my first morning on them today. I had about 75% less pain on day one compared to still on day 20 with the Size 8.

These are my first Burton boots in a long time, and it could be that these life liners just pack out SO MUCH LESS than other liners that my usual plan of "buy an 8 and it's perfect once packed out" doesn't work. My heel hold is fantastic, but I'll report back after I've had some more days on them to let everyone know if that fixed my issue or I'm back to the drawing board.

I will say that going back to straps for a handful of days after realizing the Size 8 Ion Step Ons weren't working for me SUCKED. For resort riding, I absolutely love the Step On system. And yes... I dig trenches and I'm an advanced rider.


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## robotfood99 (Mar 19, 2016)

I hear ya. Sometimes this sport makes us pay to suffer. Hope you find reprieve soon.


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## Blake Bohner (Sep 19, 2017)

jsil said:


> Wanted to update everyone on my progress. My boot from last season was a Size 8 K2 Maysis and worked better for me than any boot previous. I've had nothing been pain in the tip of my long second toe and blisters on all toes top, bottom, sides -- you name it-- with the Size 8 Ion Step On. I picked up (at full price... argh) a Size 8.5 Ion Step On and Medium binding and had my first morning on them today. I had about 75% less pain on day one compared to still on day 20 with the Size 8.
> 
> These are my first Burton boots in a long time, and it could be that these life liners just pack out SO MUCH LESS than other liners that my usual plan of "buy an 8 and it's perfect once packed out" doesn't work. My heel hold is fantastic, but I'll report back after I've had some more days on them to let everyone know if that fixed my issue or I'm back to the drawing board.
> 
> I will say that going back to straps for a handful of days after realizing the Size 8 Ion Step Ons weren't working for me SUCKED. For resort riding, I absolutely love the Step On system. And yes... I dig trenches and I'm an advanced rider.


Could you give a little more details on the life liner? I’m like RIGHT at the limit of a size 9, to the point that new size 9s give me a bit of toe curl. I tried on a pair of 9.5 ions and I think they feel, perfect? Knees bent I can wiggle my toes and my longest toe brushes the front when I wiggle it. I’m hoping since the life liners don’t pack in as much this may fit right.


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## WigMar (Mar 17, 2019)

Blake Bohner said:


> Could you give a little more details on the life liner? I’m like RIGHT at the limit of a size 9, to the point that new size 9s give me a bit of toe curl. I tried on a pair of 9.5 ions and I think they feel, perfect? Knees bent I can wiggle my toes and my longest toe brushes the front when I wiggle it. I’m hoping since the life liners don’t pack in as much this may fit right.


I'm kinda in between sizes as well. With new boots, I'm personally looking for the first fit and not the second fit you described. If necessary, a little heel wedge under the insole pulls the toes back and seats the heel in the pocket. I'm not used to life liners, but every liner I've used packs out. Then again, I'm more on the performance side of the bootfit coin. There's nothing wrong with preferring a looser fit and feel.


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## Blake Bohner (Sep 19, 2017)

WigMar said:


> I'm kinda in between sizes as well. With new boots, I'm personally looking for the first fit and not the second fit you described. If necessary, a little heel wedge under the insole pulls the toes back and seats the heel in the pocket. I'm not used to life liners, but every liner I've used packs out. Then again, I'm more on the performance side of the bootfit coin. There's nothing wrong with preferring a looser fit and feel.


I’m a bit of a hypochondriac and I’ve found myself sizing down too much, and I’m sick of numb toes in the hill. My foot isn’t wide or anything, but I have Morton’s toe on both feet(longer second toe) and a super high instep on my right.


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## jsil (Oct 9, 2018)

Blake Bohner said:


> Could you give a little more details on the life liner? I’m like RIGHT at the limit of a size 9, to the point that new size 9s give me a bit of toe curl. I tried on a pair of 9.5 ions and I think they feel, perfect? Knees bent I can wiggle my toes and my longest toe brushes the front when I wiggle it. I’m hoping since the life liners don’t pack in as much this may fit right.


Yes, if you are touching and they feel right, I'd say you will be good when they pack out. Moreso than other liners in my experience. Take it with a grain of salt though as everyone's feet are different. I've ridden the 8.5s for a few days now and while they are better, they are still not perfect by any means... but for me, I've never had perfect.


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## jsil (Oct 9, 2018)

WigMar said:


> I'm kinda in between sizes as well. With new boots, I'm personally looking for the first fit and not the second fit you described. If necessary, a little heel wedge under the insole pulls the toes back and seats the heel in the pocket. I'm not used to life liners, but every liner I've used packs out. Then again, I'm more on the performance side of the bootfit coin. There's nothing wrong with preferring a looser fit and feel.


I'm in your camp, but these life liners are a different animal (for me). I'd still prefer it to be tighter with no foot damage... but beggars cant be choosers. Step Ons are that much better for resort riding in my experience that I'll make it work.


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## jsil (Oct 9, 2018)

Blake Bohner said:


> I’m a bit of a hypochondriac and I’ve found myself sizing down too much, and I’m sick of numb toes in the hill. My foot isn’t wide or anything, but I have Morton’s toe on both feet(longer second toe) and a super high instep on my right.


If you don't have custom insoles, do that first. If that doesnt take care of the numb toes then you are in either too large or too small a boot most likely.


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## WigMar (Mar 17, 2019)

Blake Bohner said:


> I’m a bit of a hypochondriac and I’ve found myself sizing down too much, and I’m sick of numb toes in the hill. My foot isn’t wide or anything, but I have Morton’s toe on both feet(longer second toe) and a super high instep on my right.


High instep is a tough one. I've taken my insoles to a bench sander to thin them out just a little. It helped with circulation. I'll do a lot of little modifications to have a smaller boot.


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## jsil (Oct 9, 2018)

WigMar said:


> High instep is a tough one. I've taken my insoles to a bench sander to thin them out just a little. It helped with circulation. I'll do a lot of little modifications to have a smaller boot.


What boot are you currently in? I agree if I could have the response from the smaller boot with the comfort of the larger boot, I'd do it in a heartbeat. As of now, I've spent a lot of money and time to realize that the smaller boot destroys my toes.


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## Blake Bohner (Sep 19, 2017)

jsil said:


> If you don't have custom insoles, do that first. If that doesnt take care of the numb toes then you are in either too large or too small a boot most likely.


I do have insoles! I’m waiting on a pair of 9s to come in. Gonna give them one more shot just around the house.


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## jsil (Oct 9, 2018)

Another update. I've taken out the custom insoles I had made for the K2 Maysis boots last season and put back the stock insoles and have less issues that way. I still get a bit of toe pain (second toes and pinky toes occasionally), but it's much better than the Size 8 where the pain was agonizing. Still not a perfect fit and I'm finding that if I don't tighten the boots perfectly I get a bit of numbness or pain underneath the foot in my front foot (left one, I'm regular). Considering trying another custom insole made specifically for this boot.

Going to try a silicone toe cap on my long toe to help alleviate a bit of the pain I get on the end, but the blisters that I had with the Size 8 have mostly gone away with the Size 8.5.


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## jsil (Oct 9, 2018)

I figure I should update this post. I ended up selling the size 8 ions and going with a size 8.5. It was world's better, but I'm still getting calluses on my Morton's toes. Either way, the pain is an order of magnitude better even though it may not be perfect. I have over 40 days on those boots now.

I did use the *The Eliminator Custom Tongue Shims* to help with my small calf muscle and loose liner fit.

I am looking for options to lock the heel down a bit more so I don't slide forward and bend my Morton's toe, but this is world's better than the 8 I had which never packed our enough to stop bending my toes. 

EDIT: Heel is actually locked down pretty well. I think I just need to fill volume in the end of the boot or do something to stop sliding the tiny bit forward and hitting my long second toe against the liner. I am snug and my toe is just touching the end. I think if my longest toe was my big toe it would be no issue because that's a much tougher minor appendage.


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