# effects of taper on carving (softboot, not alpine)



## poopresearch (Jan 2, 2016)

Take this with a grain of salt as it is second hand info. As I understand it there are lots of tapered boards that carve pretty well. Some folks say the wide nose actually helps with turn initiation and many companies play some tricks with the side cut to give the tail good purchase when carving despite the taper.

That brings us to the downside of tapered boards. The more taper, apparently the easier it is the wash the tail out.

I infer from your post, you are interested in some boards that carve nicely and float well in powder (generally taper is used for powder boards). You should be able to find that but I've avoid boards with large amounts of taper. I don't think you will get quite the amount of carving performance out of a tapered board that you would get from a CustomX, but I know that the Landlord and Flight Attendant both carve extremely well (both have a bit of taper). 

Hope that helps.


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## SGboarder (Jun 24, 2012)

poopresearch said:


> That brings us to the downside of tapered boards. The more taper, apparently the easier it is the wash the tail out.
> 
> I infer from your post, you are interested in some boards that carve nicely and float well in powder (generally taper is used for powder boards). You should be able to find that but I've avoid boards with large amounts of taper. I don't think you will get quite the amount of carving performance out of a tapered board that you would get from a CustomX, but I know that the Landlord and Flight Attendant both carve extremely well (both have a bit of taper).


No. Taper is not just for powder. Most serious carving (and race) boards have some taper to help with the 'tail release' when coming out of the turn.


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## 70'sskater (Mar 20, 2014)

My old Burton Malolo I could wash the tail out if I put too much pressure at the end of a turn. Probably a combo of the set back stance/narrow tail width. Wasn't a huge problem, but on hardpack it was something I had to keep in check.


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## Lamps (Sep 3, 2011)

70'sskater said:


> My old Burton Malolo I could wash the tail out if I put too much pressure at the end of a turn. Probably a combo of the set back stance/narrow tail width. Wasn't a huge problem, but on hardpack it was something I had to keep in check.


Same on the Burton Juice wagon. Also the setback contributes to this I think.


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## txb0115 (Sep 20, 2015)

I have a Prior Khyber that has 30mm of taper and it carves great. It is a board though that has mostly camber so that helps. I can imagine if it was some sort of reverse camber board it would be worlds different.

If I try to push it super hard on steep groomers it can feel like the tail wants to give out a bit, but since I know that is the case/characteristic with this board I adjust my riding and it poses no issue for me when I'm riding. Like I said this trait is not really felt on low angle groomers, pretty much just on the steeper stuff.


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## ridinbend (Aug 2, 2012)

Ate there any boards with taper that aren't good to carve with?


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## txb0115 (Sep 20, 2015)

ridinbend said:


> Ate there any boards with taper that aren't good to carve with?


A tapered board with reverse camber probably wouldn't be that cool to try and really carve it up on..


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## ridinbend (Aug 2, 2012)

txb0115 said:


> A tapered board with reverse camber probably wouldn't be that cool to try and really carve it up on..


I have owned two different lib tech mullets, both carved great.


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## txb0115 (Sep 20, 2015)

ridinbend said:


> I have owned two different lib tech mullets, both carved great.


Well I owned a Lib Birdman 165 with full BTX and even with no taper, it didn't carve great at all.. Slow speeds it was okay, but anything past a crawl and it was a washout machine on groomers.. So it and taper I couldn't see being a good combination at all.. 

YMMV... 

For what it's worth my heavily tapered Khyber with no Magne Traction, but full camber to almost the contact points in the tip/tail is a much more confidence inspiring ride when it comes to carving than my Birdman that had Magne Traction ever was..

And I'm not a Mervin hater at all...


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## shitty shredder (Feb 6, 2016)

Ok, I wanted to see how much might be in my head and how much is fighting the board. But two things are happening, one of which seems counter intuitive.

BTW, the board I have been using does have setback as well.

1) Tail washout on hardpacked/icy steeps. Honestly assumed that this was just a skill issue. I mean, it probably is, but it sounds like people are suggesting it's known to be a bit more tricky in that configuration. But actually this only happens heel side really, so I don't think I can blame the board too much.

2) The major thing is the board has this weird kind of hook towards the end of the carve. Like if I hold a gradual turn shape, it starts to rapidly whip around about 3/4ths through the turn, so I have to change edges pretty quickly. It doesn't feel like it wants to make a smooth arc, more like a "J".

I'd say my skill is roughly upper intermediate, so it's possible (probable) that I just don't totally know what I am doing, but I feel like other boards don't do that.

But as the first reply suggested, I liked the idea of setback/taper as a good all around choice to keep a bit of float on soft days but still carve good on groomers.


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## Judokick (Dec 1, 2015)

theres lots of variables here.

90% of carving on any board is skill related. if you have the skill you can "correct" for what the board is trying to do. this is not absolute, some boards will be harder to carve well with than others. that shouldn't have to be said.

so taper? does it help a rider in his(her) endeavor to carve a board? 

yes in the sense that the difference in width between the nose and tail helps the tail to "release" when the board is unweighted in preparation to be turned, and there is less distance to "roll" over onto the other edge. this is hard to explain but easy to envision in your mind if you sort of imagine watching the tail in slow motion when transitioning from one edge to another.

The amount of taper is a factor as well. Beyond 10mm or so the taper is definitely serving more of a float design strategy, as opposed to a carvy/freeriding design need. The more taper there is the more likely it is to feel a bit washy on firmer snow.

now what is going on with the sidecut? if the board is designed by deciding on contact point width, and rear contact point width (narrower in this case) with a radial sidecut just placed between the two points, then the board *may* feel a bit washy and the end of the turn. some designers counteract this by putting a tighter(smaller) radius blend towards the back of the effective edge. if this is overdone the board can feel hooky. 

either of these scenarios can be mitigated with a minor adjustment by a skillful rider. remember snowboards don't really have many inherent aspects that aren't responsive to a riders input. sure a board could be made so stiff and damp that it is almost completely unresponsive to input, or so soft and rockered that no amount of skill will help, but that's obviously not done.

the Yes PYL has an interesting strategy to mitigate the supposed "washyness" of tapered boards, feel free to go to their site and read about it. But keep in mind all snowboard companies continuously develop new angles on problems that may or may not exist as a strategy to sell boards. Improvements in board design are microscopic these days, and there is always some "noise" that cancels itself out over time (the rocker--> hybrid rocker-->back to camber trend that we are seeing).

Preference is also a factor. Some might like the hooky ride you report feeling, who knows why? they might feel it takes less effort to turn.

A lot of taper can be troublesome at high speeds, especially if you are flat basing. the tail can feel like its 'drifting' a bit.

But all in all, if you are a skillfull rider you should be able to rail carves on almost any board, in almost any condition other than boilerplate. Its more crucial to have sharp edges, a stance that works for you and skill/experience than taper or not. there are many videos on youtube to watch, or even take a lesson sometime.


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## shitty shredder (Feb 6, 2016)

Yeah, I think the bit about washing out on icy steeps is a distraction from what I was trying to understand initially.

I'm more interested in whether or not tail taper with setback affects the shape of a carved turn, and if so, in what way. And, what does taper mean in terms of sidecut radius? Do board makers achieve taper by blending with another radius? 

I suppose the real question is I have a few different boards, this one in particular feels "hooky" on the heel compared to the others, and I'm wondering what attribute of a snowboard might contribute to that. 

This isn't meant to be a "I suck at snowboarding, it must be the board's fault" question 

Edit: Just read the description on the Yes PYL, interesting. I also see similar on Captia's site:

https://www.capitasnowboarding.com/tech/camber-flex-rating-sidecut



> All snowboard shapes are designed with four blend zones. This is the area after the sidecut ends and before the nose or tail shape starts. In this small section, the shape of the board must transition from a sidecut arc going one direction into the tip shape arc going in the opposite direction. This very important section of the board is similar to the steering system in your car. It's the driving force in initiating turns and determining where your board is going. A poorly designed blend zone will cause your board to be hooky or turn slowly, and could limit your ability to transition between edges.


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## txb0115 (Sep 20, 2015)

shitty shredder said:


> I'm more interested in whether or not tail taper with setback affects the shape of a carved turn, and if so, in what way. And, what does taper mean in terms of sidecut radius? Do board makers achieve taper by blending with another radius?
> 
> I suppose the real question is I have a few different boards, this one in particular feels "hooky" on the heel compared to the others, and I'm wondering what attribute of a snowboard might contribute to that.



Your restated question really has nothing to do with taper and has all to do with sidecut. You can get twins that feel hooky and taper boards that feel hooky depending on the sidecut. It all depends on what kinda of radius/blend/style the MFG has chosen for that board and is independent of taper or lack there of....

As I said, my tapered board carves great...


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## shitty shredder (Feb 6, 2016)

txb0115 said:


> Your restated question really has nothing to do with taper and has all to do with sidecut. You can get twins that feel hooky and taper boards that feel hooky depending on the sidecut. It all depends on what kinda of radius/blend/style the MFG has chosen for that board and is independent of taper or lack there of....
> 
> As I said, my tapered board carves great...


Thanks, this is making more sense. "Blend" on a radial sidecut is not something I've heard discussed before, especially on a twin. My thoughts were that a circle is going to be a circle. But it sounds like the way the sidecut is blended at the nose or tail can have an effect on this. That's kinda annoying if so because this is probably the least measurable attribute.


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## Phedder (Sep 13, 2014)

shitty shredder said:


> This isn't meant to be a "I suck at snowboarding, it must be the board's fault" question


We can tell that from your username :grin:


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## Mig Fullbag (Apr 15, 2014)

shitty shredder said:


> When you're carving, what effect (however subtle) will having a slightly tapered tail/wider nose have on your turns?


You can initate turns more easily and with your weight still centered, or almost centered, between your feet. Less need to load the nose.



shitty shredder said:


> Better edge hold? Worse edge hold? Tighter hook at the beginning of the turn, or at the end of the turn?


Not necessarily better or worse edge hold. Other factors/parameters are also involved. As for the hook effect you are speaking of, depends more on sidecut type, and the blend at the contact points (widest part of the nose and tail).



shitty shredder said:


> I don't know a lot about board construction but I would assume that having a narrower tail than nose would imply that there is a variable sidecut radius, since it wouldn't be a perfect circle?


Not necessarily. With a single sidecut radius, the narrowest part of the board will just be shifted closer to the tail.


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## Mig Fullbag (Apr 15, 2014)

shitty shredder said:


> 1) Tail washout on hardpacked/icy steeps. Honestly assumed that this was just a skill issue. I mean, it probably is, but it sounds like people are suggesting it's known to be a bit more tricky in that configuration. But actually this only happens heel side really, so I don't think I can blame the board too much.


Probably too much weight applied to the nose. No need to load the nose as much on tapered boards. Try to keep your weight centered through the first 2/3rds of your heelside turn and transfer weight to the back foot for the last 1/3rd.



shitty shredder said:


> 2) The major thing is the board has this weird kind of hook towards the end of the carve. Like if I hold a gradual turn shape, it starts to rapidly whip around about 3/4ths through the turn, so I have to change edges pretty quickly. It doesn't feel like it wants to make a smooth arc, more like a "J".


Your tapered board probably has a very tight radial sidecut or a blended sidecut with a tighter radius in the tail. When carving "C" shaped turns (or fairly close to), you actually accelarate through the turn. The closer you get to the apex of the turn, the closer you get to the fall line and pick up speed. You reach maximum speed after the apex and when nearing the exit of the turn. That is also when you pull the most G's and have your weight tranfered to the back foot, which bends the tail even more and tightens the radius. If you want to avoid that hooky feeling and "J" shaped turn in your carving, you need a board with a looser single sidecut radius, or ideally a progressive dual or triple blended radii sidecut. Tighter up front for quick turn initiation, and progressively looser in the tail to compensate for the high pressure exserted at the end of the turns.



shitty shredder said:


> I'd say my skill is roughly upper intermediate, so it's possible (probable) that I just don't totally know what I am doing, but I feel like other boards don't do that.


If your other boards are centered and symetrical between the contact points, some light technique changes have to be made. Less or no need to load the nose to get into turns, and maybe a bit more weight to the back after the apex of the turn to load the tail edge a little more.



shitty shredder said:


> But as the first reply suggested, I liked the idea of setback/taper as a good all around choice to keep a bit of float on soft days but still carve good on groomers.


All my boards have taper and setback to different degrees. So yeah, I also think that's the way to go too for all around riding. :smile:


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