# Lesson with CASI Level 4...



## OldDog (Oct 7, 2012)

Spent almost 2 hours with this guy today.

We worked on stance/alignment, steeps & moguls, and carving...

Probably a bit too much for one day, but as this is my first season and today was my 18th day on snow I wanted him to watch me ride and in different situations. We only worked on carving for the last 30 minutes or so.

Unfortunately all I really got from this was what I need to work on.

Apparently;

I should ride more "cowboy" for independent leg extension and stability on steeps and bumps. That and I tend to slouch over or lean forward too much and I need to stand up chest out. I also ride too "open" toe side.

I need to get out of the back seat and shift my pivot point to my front foot/nose to avoid too much speed and turn more quickly. He basically had me trying to throw my arm to initiate my turn while pivoting on my front foot while I wiper with my rear.

As for the carving, I improved a little but we were on a mellow green with 4 - 6" of fresh and it was really tough to dig a narrow trench. He had me grabbing indie heel side and reaching back with both hands (chest way out) toe side. It felt awkward as hell but he said it was helping.

I think a little more speed would have helped.

In any event, anyone have any thoughts regarding my list of "challenges"? He said something about using a bamboo staff to correct my open toe side stance? That would be a next lesson kind of thing.

Basically I need to improve my alignment and get out of the back seat. Pretty standard problems from what I understand. Any good vids, drills, techniques to help with these 2 specific issues?

Thanks!


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## hktrdr (Apr 3, 2012)

OldDog said:


> Spent almost 2 hours with this guy today.
> 
> We worked on stance/alignment, steeps & moguls, and carving...
> 
> ...


Typical beginner growing pains.

Oh, and good luck with that Raptor in that case...


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## t21 (Dec 29, 2010)

"cowboy"? that means duck stance right? like 15/-15 or whatever, i guess that explain why the ones i see that rides real well out here on bumps,steeps,etc all are in duck stances.hmm......:dunno:


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## hktrdr (Apr 3, 2012)

t21 said:


> "cowboy"? that means duck stance right? like 15/-15 or whatever, i guess that explain why the ones i see that rides real well out here on bumps,steeps,etc all are in duck stances.hmm......:dunno:


No, cowboy stance refers to pushing the knees out laterally (towards the tips of the board). Duck stance makes that easier, but does not mean the same.


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## atr3yu (Feb 15, 2012)

Literally had all the same things pointed out to me 2 weekends ago when I did a snowboard clinic, like exactly the same. It is nice to have someone follow you around now and then and point these things out. I had thought that I was shaken most those bad habits.... turns out, not so much. So me, 42 days on snow, and in my second season am still doing those things. Always something to work on!


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## OldDog (Oct 7, 2012)

It's funny cuz I've been working on the open stance and weight forward. I rode around for most of a day with my lead hand on my thigh trying to correct that open shoulder. As for being in the backseat, I think that has gotten worse rather than better the more pow and bumps I ride. I focus on leaning forward and attacking groomers, but moguls and trees freak me out a little. 

Good things to be aware of anyway. I may take another lesson next weekend to focus just on stance. Either way I'll be aware and try to improve.



atr3yu said:


> Literally had all the same things pointed out to me 2 weekends ago when I did a snowboard clinic, like exactly the same. It is nice to have someone follow you around now and then and point these things out. I had thought that I was shaken most those bad habits.... turns out, not so much. So me, 42 days on snow, and in my second season am still doing those things. Always something to work on!


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## OldDog (Oct 7, 2012)

Thanks for the reply.

I don't think he was trying to get me to carve all the time with a grab. I think he was just trying to exaggerate the feeling of riding your sidecut locked in.

As for wipering, he was definitely trying to get me to load my front foot, anticipate with my upper body, and swing or wiper my tail around to turn between moguls. I think his ultimate goal was to get me out of the backseat in moguls...?



Snowolf said:


> Pulling the knees apart does help the rider with independent flexion and extension and provides a more stable platform while also creating more overall "cushioning" to the ride.
> 
> Bending at the waist creates a lot of out of balance conditions. It moves your CG out to the side of the board instead of stacked vertically over the effective edge. Additionally, while some feel this aids in the toeside turn, they forget that when you bend at the waist, it tends to shove your ass way out over the heel edge so now you have two CG`s outside of the board`s moment envelop that tend to counteract each other. Lastly, being bent over at the waist, affects your visual sight picture of your riding environment. The horizon line is always tilted and this visual does affect your sense of balance. Ride so that as you look forward, the horizon line remains level.
> 
> ...


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## seriouscat (Jan 23, 2012)

You sure he's not trying to get you to push against the side of the bump? Basically the arm (Frisbee) motion should be level and independent from lower body. The motion ends at where you want go on the new edge (hence leading with upper body and moving with lower.) They want you to make that movement right before you initiate the turn on your feet.

In the bumps they also want you to use the rear foot to push against side of the bump to gain more traction and area to turn.

At least that's the way I've been taught under CASI instructors.


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## FireStarter451 (Feb 20, 2013)

Snowolf said:


> Generally, both organizations stress not "wipering" or "ruddering" the tail of the board as this is bad form and can cause some real difficulties in riding. Either initiate with the front foot through torsional twist as in skidding, or use tilt with both feet simultaneously as in carving. Avoid getting into the habit of "wipering".


Hey Snowolf,

Could you explain a little bit why wipering/ruddering is bad? I saw this alternate explanation for getting started on linking turns and it seemed like a helpful idea (conceptually at least, I have yet to try it out). It seems like a precursor to dynamic turning, with the exception that the rider isn't making him/herself lighter since they're not making any up/down movements (at least not deliberately). So I can see how it's not the same as dynamic turning, but why is it bad?

Thanks!


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## OldDog (Oct 7, 2012)

No mention of pushing off the bumps, just anticipating with upper body and pivoting on the nose. He had me actually trying to press the nose and swing the tail in the air. Again to exaggerate and get me to weight my front foot.

As for wipering, is there a difference between wipering and pivoting on your front foot?



seriouscat said:


> You sure he's not trying to get you to push against the side of the bump? Basically the arm (Frisbee) motion should be level and independent from lower body. The motion ends at where you want go on the new edge (hence leading with upper body and moving with lower.) They want you to make that movement right before you initiate the turn on your feet.
> 
> In the bumps they also want you to use the rear foot to push against side of the bump to gain more traction and area to turn.
> 
> At least that's the way I've been taught under CASI instructors.


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## seriouscat (Jan 23, 2012)

Well that makes senses if it's to correct riding in the back seat. That part of the lesson had me do front weight biase, then center and finally rear biases only for all parts of the turn just to see how it feels. 

As for the wipering. Someone else more experienced will have to chime in. As far as how I've been taught, it's ok to have some washout on turns depending on conditions as long as it still follows the turn movement. No forcing a turn and never ok to rudder unless on pow. The only exception was learning how to slash on a natural sidewall.


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## slyder (Jan 18, 2010)

Old dog silly question. If you are still trying to develop solid riding skill at this point. Why are you in the mogul field??? Not trying to start something just wondering why your complicating your learning with some very advanced riding. I understand pushing yourself and riding new terrain, but this may be at the far extreme of that choice.

Good for you for trying but still wondering why at this point


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## OldDog (Oct 7, 2012)

It's not like I can barely link turns...

I'm making dynamic turns on blues and popping off rollers and wind lips. What else should I be doing?

I have zero interest in park (not that we have one), so that leaves steeps and trees. I've done a few tree runs and it isn't pretty. So I figure moguls is the best way to practice control that could apply to trees or whatever.

When I say I'm "in the back seat" I mean on steeps in moguls and trees. I'm fine (if not steezy) on the groomers. I can navigate steep blue moguls, it's just ugly as hell.



slyder said:


> Old dog silly question. If you are still trying to develop solid riding skill at this point. Why are you in the mogul field??? Not trying to start something just wondering why your complicating your learning with some very advanced riding. I understand pushing yourself and riding new terrain, but this may be at the far extreme of that choice.
> 
> Good for you for trying but still wondering why at this point


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## Donutz (May 12, 2010)

May not be proper technique, but what's working very well for me when tree riding is to keep my weight very forward so that the tail is really loose. I then "swish" the tail back and forth to brake through a rutted tree path.


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## walove (May 1, 2009)

Snowolf said:


> The whole grabbing thing is new to me and must be a CASI thing.


maybe its oldschool, i remember an instructor having us do them when i was in lessons in the late 90's "rail grab carves" i think i got a pin . helps you get really low and compact while in the turn and hold a long carve. 

let the board accelerate down the fall line
crouch down as you roll up on an edge
grab the rail between the bindings (indy front side, melon back side)
put your opposing hand on the snow to keep your balance
stand up as you come out of the turn

linking these toe and heel down a run will make anyone feel euro


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## OldDog (Oct 7, 2012)

Add throwing you arm ahead of your turn and that's what he was trying to get me to do... I was really struggling though. I lack the confidence to really lean downhill in a mogul field. Nothing some practice and a couple beers won't fix... 



Donutz said:


> May not be proper technique, but what's working very well for me when tree riding is to keep my weight very forward so that the tail is really loose. I then "swish" the tail back and forth to brake through a rutted tree path.


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## FireStarter451 (Feb 20, 2013)

Donutz said:


> May not be proper technique, but what's working very well for me when tree riding is to keep my weight very forward so that the tail is really loose. I then "swish" the tail back and forth to brake through a rutted tree path.


Why is this improper?


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## Donutz (May 12, 2010)

FireStarter451 said:


> Why is this improper?


Don't know if it is or it isn't, actually. I just know it works for me. I'm not a certified instructor by any means, so I'm always a little nervous about handing out advice.


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## FireStarter451 (Feb 20, 2013)

Donutz said:


> Don't know if it is or it isn't, actually. I just know it works for me. I'm not a certified instructor by any means, so I'm always a little nervous about handing out advice.


Oh, ok. I'm really curious about this. I'm just getting started and learning at the moment, so I'd like to hear a good reason for why it's bad. 


A little bump for my previous question: 



Snowolf said:


> Generally, both organizations stress not "wipering" or "ruddering" the tail of the board as this is bad form and can cause some real difficulties in riding. Either initiate with the front foot through torsional twist as in skidding, or use tilt with both feet simultaneously as in carving. Avoid getting into the habit of "wipering".


Can anyone explain a little bit why wipering/ruddering is bad? I saw this alternate explanation for getting started on linking turns and it seemed like a helpful idea (conceptually at least, I have yet to try it out). It seems like a precursor to dynamic turning, with the exception that the rider isn't making him/herself lighter since they're not making any up/down movements (at least not deliberately). So I can see how it's not the same as dynamic turning, but why is it bad?

Thanks!


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## skip11 (Jan 28, 2010)

I know Snowboard Addiction (pretty sure Nev is CASI 2 or 3 certified, I have the vid) and Snow professor (AASI 2 or 3 certified) also recommends "wipering" for going down steep terrain. But that might might be for intermediate to get used to leaning down a steep run and having their weight forward at the start of the turn.


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## FireStarter451 (Feb 20, 2013)

Snowolf said:


> Being on the front foot and windshield wipering the turn is inefficient because the rider is generally not driving the board through a tight turn but is simply pivoting the tail while still maintaining the original trajectory. If braking is the goal, this is also an inefficient braking maneuver. *Shifting aft and flexing the rear leg to slash will slow and stop you much more quickly than having all of your weight on the nose and skidding a very light tail.*


Ohh, ok. I think I get this. Is this (bold) also the same motion you use to spray around snow?


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## OldDog (Oct 7, 2012)

OK, for me I think it would help to clarify ruddering vs. pivot turns vs. wipering...

I think of ruddering as pushing your tail around with your back leg while in the back seat. Perhaps accompanied by arm wagging counter-rotation and perhaps a phantom girlfriend. It is ugly, inefficient, and generally bad. With the caveat that I basically rudder when riding in really deep snow.

After that I'm not so clear (and I'm probably wrong about ruddering). So, anyone (Snowolf) (yes I'm digging parentheses today) care to explain why wipering is bad? When I say wipering I think it's the same as pivot turns. Now I've seen the Snowolf vid about pivot turns and it was almost more hop-switching or up-unweighting??? That is not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about weighting your front leg and pivoting your board around. 

a la






Thoughts?



Donutz said:


> Don't know if it is or it isn't, actually. I just know it works for me. I'm not a certified instructor by any means, so I'm always a little nervous about handing out advice.


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## OldDog (Oct 7, 2012)

OK, I think I get where my wires were crossed. I never said anything about staying on your nose the whole time. It's lean forward, swing tail, shift back to more centered, skid, repeat in the other direction. I don't think I could stay on my nose and just swing back and forth if my life depended on it...



Snowolf said:


> Not so much "improper" as it is inefficient. Tree riding, good tree riding, requires the rider to be dynamic. Anytime we move into a position and stay there, we become static and our riding becomes less effective. Fore-aft movements are fundamental to dynamic riding and getting aft at turn cometion allows us to tighten out turn radius. If you park yourself at the nose and need to shift aft, it delays the board response because you have to shift all it the way from the nose instead of from center.
> 
> Being on the front foot and windshield wipering the turn is inefficient because the rider is generally not driving the board through a tight turn but is simply pivoting the tail while still maintaining the original trajectory. If braking is the goal, this is also an inefficient braking maneuver. Shifting aft and flexing the rear leg to slash will slow and stop you much more quickly than having all of your weight on the nose and skidding a very light tail.
> 
> ...


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## GOskiLF_bum (Feb 5, 2013)

what snowprofessor, who's a level 3 and on ed staff, is getting at is utilizing upper body and lower body separation. he uses the wipering motion to simplify things and explain it in terms a non certified instructor would understand. He's essentially making pivot turns. in moguls it's key to have independent leg flexion/extension, being dynamic and having upper body and lower body separation. where kicking your back leg out isn't the preferred method in carving, it's usually needed in moguls.


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## Donutz (May 12, 2010)

I don't know why, but I've never thought of doing hard slash-braking in the trees. Not that hard a concept either. I'm going to try that next time I'm in the trees.

I used to own a cat that never realized she could jump up onto counters until we babysat a friend's cat who showed mine it was possible. This is what bugs me about riding on my own all the time. I'm missing stuff -- possibly fairly obvious stuff.


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## OldDog (Oct 7, 2012)

Awesome write-up! So is this a necessary step in progression or should I start trying to down-unweight? Thanks!



Snowolf said:


> Pivot turns or "wipering" does sort of work but it is still not an ideal method for any terrain, even for moguls. The up unweight that the rider is doing does release the edge and allow the tail to be kicked around. When this is happening, the board is no longer engaged with the snow and then has to reengage each time. Additionally, an up unweight throws the rider up off of the snow which moves the CG higher and makes the rider more top heavy.
> 
> These pivot turns wipering the tail are a natural progression for the intermediate rider and it is a way to get into the mogul and start learning to negotiate them but they should not be considered as the final method for advanced riding. When the terrain becomes more challenging, these turns will fail the rider.
> 
> ...


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## GOskiLF_bum (Feb 5, 2013)

snowolf i agree w/ 100% of what you said...for someone that is ready for that step. but the CASI instructor and snowprofessor are teaching an intermediate lesson. i believe the pivot turns do have their place. not all the time, but in this case that's how i would begin a new mogul lesson. well that and independent leg action to keep the board on the snow.


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## FireStarter451 (Feb 20, 2013)

Snowolf, thanks for the explanation!


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## CheeseForSteeze (May 11, 2011)

Snowolf said:


> You will see many riders with their back hand sticking straight out over their toe edge like they are waving to the crowd or have their arm around their invisible girlfriend. Not only does this look retarded, it is a rotary movement and it makes the board want to pivot heelside.


Nothing constructive to add but this made me laugh because it's true. It looks retarded. Everyone stop doing this pls.


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## GOskiLF_bum (Feb 5, 2013)

again i agree and i don't teach the falling leaf or side slip either. what i'm getting at is that we try and have our students stay "stacked" over their board when they ride. with the pivot drill (keeping your shoulders parallel w/ the fall line) it teaches the student that's it's ok to separate their lower body from their upper. perhaps we're just more relaxed here in the central division but i believe we're getting at the same goal...i'm just taking a detour from your path. over the past few years i've been told to dumb it down a bit. i do like the don't teach something they have to unlearn though.


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## Donutz (May 12, 2010)

Tell ya what I'd like to see is a diagram of the path you should take through a mogul field. The instructor in my recent lesson took me through the troughs, but a lot of people say you're supposed to ride partway up the bumps.

What I really need personally is a chance to ride behind someone who knows what they're doing on a mid-difficulty mogul field that's long enough to get a rhythm on.


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## skip11 (Jan 28, 2010)

> You will see many riders with their back hand sticking straight out over their toe edge like they are waving to the crowd or have their arm around their invisible girlfriend. Not only does this look retarded, it is a rotary movement and it makes the board want to pivot heelside.


@Snowolf: This is one of things I kinda disagree in a way. If you look at many pros, a lot of them have their back hand in front. If you don't believe me watch any Josh Dirksen's clips (whom Jeremy Jones said has the best turns in snowboarding), Terje, Nicolas Muller. Dirksen is the most obvious one. Watch any clip of him turning and his back hand will always be in front of the toe edge.


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## hktrdr (Apr 3, 2012)

skip11 said:


> @Snowolf: This is one of things I kinda disagree in a way. If you look at many pros, a lot of them have their back hand in front. If you don't believe me watch any Josh Dirksen's clips (whom Jeremy Jones said has the best turns in snowboarding), Terje, Nicolas Muller. Dirksen is the most obvious one. Watch any clip of him turning and his back hand will always be in front of the toe edge.


Not really. When these guys have the trailing hand over the toe edge, it is because of specific reasons that override the fundamental idea of aligning with the board. For instance, on big drops, serious steeps, super bumpy conditions, etc. it is imperative to maintain basic balance (i.e., not fall over), which very well might override the need to have optimal countered/non-countered posture. Sometimes it also done purely for style/show.
In addition, unlike most riders these guys are so good that their arm movements do not really affect their upper body/shoulder position, i.e., they don't get an 'open' upper body from sticking their back hand out.

For instance,take this Dirksen video:





At first glance it looks like he riding with the 'invisible date', but in reality

During the jump at 0:42 he uses the back hand to balance
At 0:45-1:05 he is waving his back hand around or doing a hand drag purely for show/style (and note how it barely affects his upper body position, if at all)
It is the same throughout the rest of the video, except for when he is 'just riding' at 2:00-2:20 or 2:50-3:00 where his back arm is pretty much in line with the board.

Again, the riding we see in these videos is pretty far removed from what most people do everyday and these riders have specific reason to adapt their technique. However, the fundamental principles that wolfie explained still apply.


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## skip11 (Jan 28, 2010)

How bout this one, just regular riding at a resort 1:13-1:18 and 2:43-2:49 (he's the 2nd rider)?.



1:35-1:41



and this one? 3:57-4:02





Btw, I'm talking when he's doing a heelside turn not when he's just riding straight or "just riding".


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## firstx1017 (Jan 10, 2011)

*Question for Snowolf*

Question for Snowolf - don't mean to hijack this thread - but I also have questions on the skidded turns, ruddering, pivoting, windshield wiper and which is which. Can you tell me which one of these I am doing in these two videos? 

Here is the first:






And the second:






Thanks!


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## hktrdr (Apr 3, 2012)

skip11 said:


> How bout this one, just regular riding at a resort 1:13-1:18 and 2:43-2:49 (he's the 2nd rider)?.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sorry, I do not see your point. In all of these instances he clearly does the arm thing for style - while maintaining proper upper body alignment for great basic technique, as described by wolfie.

Also, the 'imaginary girlfried'/back hand out is mostly a problem with *toe-side turns*, where the open stance undermines/counteracts the turn. For *heel-side turns* it is much less of an issue and actually supports the board turning.


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## skip11 (Jan 28, 2010)

@hktrdr: Ah I see, then we agree. I was talking some instructors and I might misunderstand snowolf's comment on the imaginary girlfriend. I thought he meant we should not have our back hand in front of the toe edge in all situations (and in my mind heelside turns where you are mentioning it in regards to toeside turns). Just a misunderstanding in my part.


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## hktrdr (Apr 3, 2012)

firstx1017 said:


> Question for Snowolf - don't mean to hijack this thread - but I also have questions on the skidded turns, ruddering, pivoting, windshield wiper and which is which. Can you tell me which one of these I am doing in these two videos?
> 
> Here is the first:
> 
> ...


There is definitely quite a bit of pivot action going on here, but I am not sure I would call it ruddering because your weight actually seems pretty centered/slightly forward (as it should be).
Main issue I see is that your edge angle is really low and you are side slipping a lot (even when not turning). Appears to be a result of not enough ankle, knee, and hip flexion (I recall you mentioning bad knees in another thread) - especially ankle.

But I will defer to wolfie for a better analysis - he is the instructor, I am just an equipment guy 

EDIT: I did also note some of the imaginary girlfriend (hubby?) - more in the first video than in the second.


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## firstx1017 (Jan 10, 2011)

Thanks - was not sure what the heck you would call whatever it is I am actually doing! lol And you are correct, I am the one with the really bad knees and very little flex in my ankles. Because of all that, as long as I can get down the mountain upright, I'm okay with whatever I need to do to get down the mountain without falling! lol May not be pretty or correct, but as this age all I can hope for is still getting out there and having some kind of fun. I was just wondering what actually I am "really" doing - skidding, pivoting, ruddering, etc. :dunno:


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## firstx1017 (Jan 10, 2011)

hktrdr said:


> EDIT: I did also note some of the imaginary girlfriend (hubby?) on your toe-side turns towards the end of the first video.


HA HA - Yes, I still have the mystery "hubby" problem, which Snowolf pointed out my first year - when I feel off balance - or hit an unexpected bump or just start to freak out - it appears - like this past weekend in Mammoth.


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## t21 (Dec 29, 2010)

one thing i noticed is that you are more faster now,either you are or it's on fast forward:laugh:. anyways, i agree that you are more pivoting on your turns with low angles. i was worried you would catch your edges while going toeside before you switch to heelside since your tilt angle is low.


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## GOskiLF_bum (Feb 5, 2013)

Snowolf said:


> I understand and totally agree with goal of the drill you are talking about. We call this drill Pivot Slips in the AASI NW division and are used for the exact same purpose of teaching upper-lower body separation as a component of dynamic skidded turns.
> 
> Out here, we stress the pivot point being the center of the board not the front foot however. The primary board performance focused on is twist not pivot. Yes, the board pivots but the goal is to make this pivot an effect not a cause and is the result of twist.
> 
> ...


ok...we're talking about the same exact thing as we too focus on the pivot point being the center of the board. and my bad for not specifying that. i'm a bit lazy when it comes to explaining things via the internet.


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## OldDog (Oct 7, 2012)

*Stance Width & Angles?*

So I was setting up my new Raptor the other night... 

and.

I went with a .75" setback (what it is designed for I believe) and I went a little wider than I had in the past at 22.5" (5'10"ish). I also went full duck at +15/-15.

My thought was that as I had been coached to ride more cowboy to deal with steeper more intermediate terrain the wider stance would help.

Just based on strapping in and carpet boarding it also seems that the increased angle and wider stance may help with being more centered or even more forward than in the backseat. It also feels like it will be more conducive to proper upper body alignment. I tried to open up my shoulder and it felt weird with my stance that wide and that 15 degree angle. It felt like turning and opening my shoulder would be pretty uncomfortable.

Is this all in my head or does stance width and binding angle make these kind of differences for people? As this is my first year I haven't tried a lot of variation. I think I started at +15/-9 then went +12/-12 when I was trying to ride switch more. I didn't notice a huge difference then, but the +/-15 seems significant.

Thoughts?

PS: Boy this thing is stiff torsionally... It seems almost easier to press or boardwalk (cause that's about all you can do on the carpet) but a lot stiffer than my Raygun torsionally.


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## t21 (Dec 29, 2010)

I have watched some videos of CASI level 4 and their riding style is what i'm trying to emulate. They ride the bumps with ease and shows a lot of control to the turns of any uneven terrains. The "cowboy" style i guess helps a lot on initiating the turns without forcing your tail to follow through, and the independent flexing of the legs makes it more smoother when riding over bumps. Pivoting from a centered stance is also a issue for me when it comes to tight tree runs, i tend to use my back foot to make turns and it would skid me out of my path and either i stop or just fall. looking forward for more tips and vids from snowolf and others.


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## hktrdr (Apr 3, 2012)

OldDog said:


> So I was setting up my new Raptor the other night...
> 
> and.
> 
> I went with a .75" setback (what it is designed for I believe) and I went a little wider than I had in the past at 22.5" (5'10"ish). I also went full duck at +15/-15.


How did you measure the setback? IIRC the Raptor setback is 0.75" on the sidecut and 1.25" on the overall length.


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## OldDog (Oct 7, 2012)

Good question. I actually meant to ask about the "proper" method for measureing setback. I measured OAL. I went point-to-point from the tip/tail to the center of the binding disk and subtracted for the difference. I didn't take into account the contour of the board or the sidecut.

So, should I move both bindings back by another .5"??? :dunno:



hktrdr said:


> How did you measure the setback? IIRC the Raptor setback is 0.75" on the sidecut and 1.25" on the overall length.


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## OldDog (Oct 7, 2012)

Snowolf said:


> 22.5 is not super wide unless you are pretty short so yes, this should help you a lot with stbility, pressure distribution and body alingment.


Well I'm actually just about 5'9.5" and I wear about a 31" inseam pants. In your opinion, what would be an optimal (or at least rule of thumb) stance width for a novice freerider??? :bowdown:



Snowolf said:


> Yes the Raptor is stiff torsionally and that is why havinf at least a basic carving ability is going to be essential to get the most out of it. The board wants to be ridden on edge in a carving technique even if the actual turn is skidded. A stiff binding is also pretty important for the Raptor so you get full use of your foot movements.


I know and I'm super excited to try it out. I couldn't find a flex rating for my K2's. Do you know what the Formulas runs as far as stiffness? I'm looking for an excuse to buy new bindings... :blink:


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## OldDog (Oct 7, 2012)

Almost certain that is what I did (seemed logical). Then I just measured everything thing out and that is what it came out too. I also have some longitudnal adjustment in my disks as I just the off-set disks to center my binding on the board waist.

Thanks!



Snowolf said:


> Don`t set them back at all and instead use the reference stance which will give you the best torsional performance. Take your 22.5 stance width and center it on the insert pattern. For example, say you used the number 2 and 4 holes on the front binding, use the number 2 and 4 holes for the back as well (or 1,3- 2,4-3,5-4,6 etc) Basically, mount the bindings using symmetry as the board has the natural optimum setback built into. Mounting your bindings off center (setting them back) will cause the board to behave differently than intended and will not utilize the sidecut as effectively. It will also make this directional board ride switch more differently


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## hktrdr (Apr 3, 2012)

OldDog said:


> Good question. I actually meant to ask about the "proper" method for measureing setback. I measured OAL. I went point-to-point from the tip/tail to the center of the binding disk and subtracted for the difference. I didn't take into account the contour of the board or the sidecut.
> 
> So, should I move both bindings back by another .5"??? :dunno:


Follow wolfie's instructions - in simplest terms, work from the narrowest inserts out going equal number of holes for the front and back binding.

If you want to verify, measure from nose tip to front binding and from tail to rear binding. Subtract the second (tail distance) from the first (nose distance) and divide the result by 2 - that is your setback on material/overall length.


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## OldDog (Oct 7, 2012)

OK, thanks again!



Snowolf said:


> Stance width is very much a personal preference and there are no hard and fast rules. In general with that inseam, 22.5 is in range and a little on the wide side so you should get what you are looking for. If you find that turn initiation feels like it "hangs", try going to 22. When you get a little too wide, turn initiation can feel awkward. I have no clue about the Formula`s as I have never even picked up a pair to look at. Hopefully someone else will give you an accurate answer.


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## behi (Feb 27, 2013)

Snowolf said:


> Yes the Raptor is stiff torsionally and that is why havinf at least a basic carving ability is going to be essential to get the most out of it. The board wants to be ridden on edge in a carving technique even if the actual turn is skidded. A stiff binding is also pretty important for the Raptor so you get full use of your foot movements.


I also have a board that's extremely stiff torsionally. For me personally, a mid+ - stiff binding (Burton Prophecy) works much better for foot steering than a very stiff one (Rossignol HC Works); I can muster more strength to torque the board.


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## snowman55 (Feb 17, 2012)

Few questions on the fore/aft and extend/flex movement timing.

1. Flex your front leg as you do the fore movement to initiate the turn.
2. After edge change and turn is initiated , move toward center. (Do you extend or flex the legs here? If so which ones?)
3 Before the turn is completed do the aft movement (Do you extend or flex the legs here? If so which ones?)


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## snowman55 (Feb 17, 2012)

I think this video shows the fore/aft movement that Snowolf is posting about.

Around the 1:27 mark is where it starts explaining/showing the fore/aft movement.


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## snowklinger (Aug 30, 2011)

Formulas on a Raptor??(this may be causing you some turn initiation issues)

Seems like a pretty bad match imo, like if you want a Raptor you may as well get a hard boot setup so you can use crampons..... just saying Formulas have always been a good all around mid-$$, but....seems like previous poster suggesting uber stiff bindings on that thing is onto something....

IMO you would be well served getting a super cheapo craigslist basic generic board, throwing the forumals on it and then learning to ride.

Why man, in god's name did you get a Raptor(just reading someone elses post)!? Holy crap!

By all means keep it, I just think 10 days-2 weeks of riding something more forgiving will allow you to progress from where you are to riding like a normal person who has it clicked, and then moving to the Raptor will be a piece of cake. Put that thing in the garage for your Alaska and Jhole trips.

Point of reference? Over 100 days on my Proto(deep pow, steeps)(riding since '94) and all I want is a replacement and a split one. (ok ok I admit something damper and a little stiffer would be better for the split)(just admitting I haven't ridden all the boards, NS doesn't ship me decks , but I ride a ton and can't imagine learning on what I know of the Raptor).

edit: oh and I'm not saying the Proto is a good beginner board because I do not believe it is, the way the camber zones engage on it combined with it's fairly decent amount of pop and the swivel between your feet are all pretty aggressive and unforgiving.


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## OldDog (Oct 7, 2012)

Whew, that was a close one. For a split second I almost gave a fuck what you think...



snowklinger said:


> Formulas on a Raptor??(this may be causing you some turn initiation issues)
> 
> Seems like a pretty bad match imo, like if you want a Raptor you may as well get a hard boot setup so you can use crampons..... just saying Formulas have always been a good all around mid-$$, but....seems like previous poster suggesting uber stiff bindings on that thing is onto something....
> 
> ...


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## snowklinger (Aug 30, 2011)

OldDog said:


> Whew, that was a close one. For a split second I almost gave a fuck what you think...


You don't have to be so bent just because I said you never snowboarded when you were running your mouth, both of which were true, if you don't like being put in your place, earn a new one.

My post was helpful and sincere. I didn't post it so I could re-read what I know.

:icon_scratch:


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## snowman55 (Feb 17, 2012)

Snowolf said:


> 1. Flex your front leg as you do the fore movement to initiate the turn.
> 
> *Flex both legs; get as low to the board as you can go and shift forward*
> 
> ...



Thanks Snowolf. As always, you've been very helpful.


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