# Improving the ability to footsteer/center-steer



## SlvrDragon50 (Mar 25, 2017)

Never heard of footsteer and center steer before, but I'm a noob.

Vid here: https://media.giphy.com/media/vND4bo98lZeswMX4Z5/giphy.mp4

I do see a lot of counter rotation though which is maybe what you're talking about? I've always been told that you must counter steer a lot to help control speed and direction through steep and quick turns. If footsteer and center steer is something else then I take back my comments.

You could probably practice the skills in the trees.

Ryan Knapton does it here too:
https://youtu.be/VOVN0ZBZ0HY?t=253


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## keel_bright (Jan 13, 2013)

What I've always referred to as center-steering or foot-steering (and I think that's what other people call it too) is the act of torsionally flexing the board such that the board rotates around the center of the board. Essentially, steering the board mostly with the flexion/extension feet and ankles. Notice Travis' board rotates directly underneath him as he goes through that narrowing in the rock formation.


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## neni (Dec 24, 2012)

I'd say lot of the steering movement in that clip comes from knees rather than feet/ankle. It's too much of board shift / quick action than only foot motion / torsional flex could perform. The quickness ckmes from the knees.

You can exersises this almost everywhere where the pitch is big enough so you don't loose momentum. Begin on a freshly groomed track. Keep ur body upright and move the board with your knees, slowly first to get used to how the edge reacts and to learn how ur ankles have to adapt; then increase the speed of your movements. Once you're used to tge movements, begin to search for little obstacles (like old teacks, bumps) where you want to fishtail like that so you learn to get the timing exactly where you want it.


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## Snowdaddy (Feb 2, 2018)

To a beginner like me it looks like dynamic sliding turns. It looks like he's riding very steep terrain which makes his normal force less than going down a lower incline, making speedier shifts to the board easier. It's a lot easier shifting your board going down a black run compared to a green one and you control your turns by small adjustments to the angle of your edges along with just pushing the board around.

In a sliding turn the friction is controlled (among other things) by the angle of your board (edgewise and directional). He seems to have a ridiculous amount of finesse doing that :surprise: 

I don't really see how this could be due to torsional flex though. Torsional flex is more about changing the side cut (in my understanding). It's possible that he is also flexing the board to adjust the angle along the length of his board, but I doubt it makes a lot of difference in sliding like this. Since he's a professional rider I find it likely that he's doing a combination of everything at once :grin:

I come from a background in skis and I've never given much thought to torsional flex before riding a snowboard.

Neni's tip seems really useful. I'm definitely going to try practice this more.


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## Aracan (Nov 24, 2017)

Like SlvrDragon50, I see lots and lots of counter-rotation. Certainly understandable in a tricky situation like the one shown in the GIF, but not a healthy or efficient technique for general riding. Counter-rotating is what everybody does on a snowboard instinctively when first confronted with a situation they feel is beyond them - "help, the board is not turning! Help, the hill is too steep! Help, I need to come to an emergency stop!" 
And it is efficient if, for example, you have to stop right NOW. But it is not something I would try to master the finer points of. Much better to invest that work into learning to rotate INTO the turn instead of against it.


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## SGboarder (Jun 24, 2012)

keel_bright said:


> I'll start by posting this clip from The Art of Flight. This clip was burned into my memory when I first watched AoF and it has never left. I remember seeing this way back and being amazed by the level of control Travis Rice has of his snowboard - how he can center-steer the board while completely maintaining his momentum and vector, especially on a pitch that steep, and make so many micro adjustments. I found the degree of finesse here really amazing. I haven't anywhere NEAR that degree of control while footsteering.


That is pretty much the opposite of foot steering. Foot steering involves twisting the board _longitudinally_ to work the edges. In the clip he is just swiveling the board roughly on the center point by unweigthing it and using counter-rotation.



Aracan said:


> Like SlvrDragon50, I see lots and lots of counter-rotation. Certainly understandable in a tricky situation like the one shown in the GIF, but not a healthy or efficient technique for general riding. Counter-rotating is what everybody does on a snowboard instinctively when first confronted with a situation they feel is beyond them - "help, the board is not turning! Help, the hill is too steep! Help, I need to come to an emergency stop!"
> And it is efficient if, for example, you have to stop right NOW. But it is not something I would try to master the finer points of. Much better to invest that work into learning to rotate INTO the turn instead of against it.


Pretty much exactly that. Except for certain situations (needing to scrub speed in a very tight narrow situation (like the clip), speed checking before a park feature etc) this is *not good technique* at all - in fact, it is pretty similar to 'ruddering' (note how he actually does not really change direction).



keel_bright said:


> Anyone have tips on practicing and improving on this technique?


Yes, the tip is: Don't use this 'technique'.


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## MrDavey2Shoes (Mar 5, 2018)

Aracan said:


> Like SlvrDragon50, I see lots and lots of counter-rotation. Certainly understandable in a tricky situation like the one shown in the GIF, but not a healthy or efficient technique for general riding. Counter-rotating is what everybody does on a snowboard instinctively when first confronted with a situation they feel is beyond them - "help, the board is not turning! Help, the hill is too steep! Help, I need to come to an emergency stop!"
> And it is efficient if, for example, you have to stop right NOW. But it is not something I would try to master the finer points of. Much better to invest that work into learning to rotate INTO the turn instead of against it.



Yea, I agree with this, aside from the terrain hes riding, the actual turn isn't that impressive. I know that sounds condescending but I don't mean it that way. What I think we're seeing is reactional movement. I bet if you asked him "hey how did you do that awesome center turn " He'd probably say "Oh I was just avoiding the rocks however I could". What makes it look dope and purposeful is... the dude has style.

Anecdotally, the only times I recall using this type of turn are in auto pilot "oh shit scenarios" like coming in too hot on mogul I didn't anticipate.

But I guess if you want to initiate a turn like this its about shifting your weight and manipulating how steep an angle you initiate your edge at. Kinda like a butter.


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## wrathfuldeity (Oct 5, 2007)

Its a valid tool...which TR can be counter-rotated and still pull rainbows out of his ass...its a do whatever to get you through the eye of the needle. TR can get away with all kinds of fucked up counter rotated positions...but there is a progression with some isolated movements to get you there. What I see is TR us using cross-under turns with his upper body position being rather kooked

It is basically/the majority is moving the board under your body, it involves some unweighted dynamic skids (using mostly sucking up the knees)...unweight, set edge, skid, unweight, set next edge and skid...repeat.

A drill is to get on a good single black run (groomed and/or pow)...keep your leading shoulder pointed in the fall line, your upper body quiet and then move the board with your lower body by being dynamic, but focus on sucking up your knees (unweighting the board) by popping/sucking the board up off the snow and set the new edge...slam a skid and then boom to the next edge. You will need some speed (thus at least a black or double black run...being on a narrow run or black cat track you help force you to do the popping transitions in a fast matter of time...or end up in the ditch lol)...basically straight-line it, keeping the nose with in 30-45 degrees of the fall line and keep your leading shoulder pointed right down the fall line.

moi 2 cents


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## powderjunkie (Jun 30, 2015)

This is actually a technique i use pretty frequently when going through trees. I find its a good way to scrub speed without committing to a full turn. It is basically ruddering just more extreme. Obviously for general riding it is not something that should be done just cruising a groomer or even when riding moguls since you can plan your turns on a mogul. But in gnarlier terrain (trees, rocks, steeps) it is definitely a good tool to have in the tool bag.


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## wrathfuldeity (Oct 5, 2007)

OP this clip is really an o shit thing, very reactive and hang on to your ass. I'm sure that TR only did this once and this was the first and only time through. However if this was his 6th or 10th time through, it would be OMG what shite style, no flow, counter and flinging.

However the clip really illistrates why you dont want to get open, countered and arms out flaying. So more to your general question of how to ride this better. His first little slash before the narrow is fine, but after that it quickly falls apart. So as he is riding through the first narrows, he is heelside and rotated wiiide open with arms outstretched...and this sets him up for not being able to get back on toeside fast enough to slam a slash to avoid the second big rocky area. As you can see, he is just holding on trying to get his toeside engaged and as result becomes bent over at the waist and flinging his leading shoulder to toeside. If he was to do the line again, instead of bending at the waist and flinging his leading shoulder, he would be sinking in his knees to really pressure the toeside edge, (keeping a more upright upper body) thereby doing a toeside slash. Again, as you can see there is no flow, hanging on by his ass. And as noted above, we all do this in the oh shit moment.

Thus the remedy to flow better, say that you get to try this line 6-10 times. The basic thing you want to do, is to compact your body parts around the vertical axis, so that you can turn on a dime, not get over-extended (counter-rotated)...and behind the curve/turn and have to try to pull it off by over-compensating. So the main thing is to glue your elbows to your ribs...and even keep your hands/arms tucked in to a fighting/boxing position that is close to your chest. Think of it as most of the work is done with moving the lower half of your body...mostly knees and hip rotation. And then your upper body remains in a neutral readied position that is pointed (leading shoulder) down the fall/flow line. Instead of using your arms, think of it as using your shoulders doing a boxing "duck and weave" thing. This will help you to keep your upper body compacted around the vertical axis. And then if you need to really engage in an oh shit moment, you extend only your leading arm/fist to accentuate the turn...called "punching your turns." (but when spining in the air, you are throwing (both) of your shoulders." Anyway leave your trailing arm/hand close to your chest. However be forewarned that punching your turns puts you at a disadvantage for being in position for your next turn because you are over extended (open/counter-rotated) for your up/on coming turn. In short, in these situations, keeps your arms tucked or get fucked. However, if you are riding in big open alpine, you can open your upper body to help hold a long arching carve (which is often seen)...but in the clips tight narrow negotiations, you don't want to do it.

side note: the difference between pre-rotation and tard-rotation, is merely a matter of staying ahead of the turn/carve inorder to initiate getting into the turn. If you are tarded out, then you are finishing up the last turn, but nowhere in position for the up coming turn.

Hope this makes sense...just kind of redirecting you from fancy foot work idea, which is not happening in the clip...to the more influential upper body awareness, which almost fucks TR at the last end of the clip. If he had the opportunity to do this clip again, I'm sure his line would be much cleaner, flowing better and more straight line aggressively threading the needle.


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## Aracan (Nov 24, 2017)

wrathfuldeity said:


> A drill is to get on a good single black run (groomed and/or pow)...keep your leading shoulder pointed in the fall line, your upper body quiet and then move the board with your lower body by being dynamic, but focus on sucking up your knees (unweighting the board) by popping/sucking the board up off the snow and set the new edge...slam a skid and then boom to the next edge.


What you describe is not the counter-rotation seen in the clip. It's what used to be called "wedeln" in skiing (except for the leading shoulder thing, obviously). All the rage in the 70s, I recall.


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## Snowdaddy (Feb 2, 2018)

Counter rotation in itself isn't a bad thing, it's just simple physics. "For every action, there is an equal opposite reaction". When turning (moving the board under yourself) like this the opposite force is coming from the counter rotation of the upper body. When doing a carve the opposite force is coming from the snow pushing back at the edges of the board.

This is easily demonstrated by standing on a balance board.

The "pre-rotation" that happens when you jump turn down steep slopes on skis or boards requires time for pressing into the snow. The counter force comes from the ground, but there are still going to be a small counter rotation when you pull the skis or the board along. It's just that you already have momentum on the upper body. That momentum is used to move the skis or board.

I don't think there's really much space to do anything than counter rotate in a place like this. He's basically just going too fast and have too little time to do anything but using his edges friction to keep his speed down. But that's just my perspective, and I'm not an expert snowboarder. I couldn't have navigated this gracefully on skis in my best days either.


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## Rip154 (Sep 23, 2017)

Damn you guys need that white stuff bad now.


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## Manicmouse (Apr 7, 2014)

powderjunkie said:


> This is actually a technique i use pretty frequently when going through trees. I find its a good way to scrub speed without committing to a full turn. It is basically ruddering just more extreme. Obviously for general riding it is not something that should be done just cruising a groomer or even when riding moguls since you can plan your turns on a mogul. But in gnarlier terrain (trees, rocks, steeps) it is definitely a good tool to have in the tool bag.





Snowdaddy said:


> I don't think there's really much space to do anything than counter rotate in a place like this. He's basically just going too fast and have too little time to do anything but using his edges friction to keep his speed down. But that's just my perspective, and I'm not an expert snowboarder. I couldn't have navigated this gracefully on skis in my best days either.


Yep, looks like the quickest way to deal with the oh shit situation he found himself in. It's almost a handbrake turn. I tend to use it when someone cuts in front of me and I have no time to turn away. It's more of a reflex than a technique!


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## drblast (Feb 28, 2017)

wrathfuldeity said:


> OP this clip is really an o shit thing, very reactive and hang on to your ass. I'm sure that TR only did this once and this was the first and only time through. However if this was his 6th or 10th time through, it would be OMG what shite style, no flow, counter and flinging.


Yup, and what you're not seeing in the clip from the birds-eye-view is the grade of the run, so it looks like he's on some easy slope but it was probably steep as shit with very little time to react.


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## Aracan (Nov 24, 2017)

> The "pre-rotation" that happens when you jump turn down steep slopes on skis or boards requires time for pressing into the snow. The counter force comes from the ground, but there are still going to be a small counter rotation when you pull the skis or the board along.


I don't understand what you mean. Maybe because I don't understand what pre-rotation has to do with jump turns. When rotating into the turn, you initiate the turn by rotating your body in the direction you want to go. This impulse is transmitted to the board through the legs (just as with counter-rotation), which then follows and turns. No counter-rotation required.


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## Snowdaddy (Feb 2, 2018)

Aracan said:


> I don't understand what you mean. Maybe because I don't understand what pre-rotation has to do with jump turns. When rotating into the turn, you initiate the turn by rotating your body in the direction you want to go. This impulse is transmitted to the board through the legs (just as with counter-rotation), which then follows and turns. No counter-rotation required.


Yes, well I think we are just saying the same thing basically.

When you start the rotation, your counter-force is coming from the fact that your board is in contact and pushes down against the snow/ground. The ground "pushes back". When you pull your board along your upper body rotation will either slow down or actually rotate back.

I don't really know where the word pre-rotation came from. Maybe in the sense that you started the rotation before you let the board follow. The steeper it is the harder it's going to be to apply force into the snow to initiate that turn. And I would suggest that it takes a lot more time than just using your upper body as the counter-force…

Basically, whenever you make a turn or move your board the force to do can't just come from one direction. There's always a counter force. All I meant to say was that it's not really wrong to "counter rotate" your upper body. At times.

When I watched the clip it just looked like it was steep and he didn't have time to apply his edges a lot to turn his board. Not really a bad form.

This conversation took a "turn" into the weird direction. My apologies.


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## Aracan (Nov 24, 2017)

No need to apologize, I was merely being curious.


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## wrathfuldeity (Oct 5, 2007)

Counter rotation is twisting the upper half of the body in the opposite direction in relation of the lower half of the body.

Pre-rotation is referred to having the upper half of the body already rotating towards the direction of the turn/edge; and the lower half is a bit latent or soon to follow.

When Wedien or doing cross under turns, with keeping your leading shoulder in the fall line, a sense, you are pre-rotated, i.e., your leading shoulder is already in a leading or pre-rotated position relative to the board. 

There is also pre-loading or winding up the upper body into a more extreme/extended counter rotation position. Then followed by unwinding, in which you throw your shoulders in sync with popping/hopping the board in to the air so that you can spin/swing the board faster to the new edge...as done with billygoat or jump turns. One issue is that when you land to the next edge, your upper body also tends to continue to rotate and you end up in a counter rotated position on the new edge...thus this is why it is hard to stop spinning.

There is also throwing or rotating your hips first and faster than your shoulders, because you can spin the board faster and more efficiently around with hips; but then you land abit counter rotated...because you upper body is still twisted or latent relative to your hips. And then there is the remaining "unwinding phase." The reason you can get the board around faster with your hips is because there is less mass...that board, legs and hips verses torso/upper half. And because the board is more closer to the ground...its the thing of trying to efficiently turn the board with your shoulders verses with your knees...the closer to the board, the faster and more effectively/efficiently you are able to turn the board.


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