# How to Teach a New Rider



## ttccnn (Mar 31, 2011)

there is a lot of video on youtube for new rider.


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## shauna03 (Nov 12, 2013)

but unfortunately she won't sit down long enough to watch any like ive suggested. Shes convinced that shes gonna be a total pro her first day out. i just want to know how i can help her once we're out there.


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## wrathfuldeity (Oct 5, 2007)

shauna03 said:


> just want to know how i can help her once we're out there.


Bring asprin/ibuprofen, beer and $20 to help get her a lesson with a hot instructor.

Otherwise show her how to fall correctly.


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## sleev-les (Feb 26, 2010)

I had a friend that "knew" he'd be a pro on the first run... He was a pro at sitting on his ass by the days end... He couldn't get down 1 run the entire day. He was opposite of pro..... lol


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## MJP (Jan 7, 2013)

How old is she? If she's that stubborn, take her to the top of the mountain, drop her off and meet her at the bottom after you've had your 6th beer.......then take her to get lessons.


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## lab49232 (Sep 13, 2011)

Friends and boyfriends/girlfriends are the worst people to learn from. Years of teaching let me watch many a couple screaming at eachother until they finally paid for lessons (or broke up right there). There will be a lot of "just do this" followed by "I am doing it that doesn't work!" but if you teaching is a must then here's the most basic.
Weight goes on the front foot (hardest thing for people to convince themselves to do) turns are all initiated with the front foot. its basically like a gas pedal. Obviously there's body movement/control/placement etc. but feet are a good place to start. 
Step 1: front toes go up, back foot stays flat 
Step 2: Back toes come up and now you're on heel edge
Step 3: Set front toes down back toes stay up
Step 4: Back toes go down now your pointed down hill again

Do the same thing only lifting heels to go toe side.


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## MelC (Mar 6, 2012)

The exercise that saved my ass in beginner lessons that I still remember is to swivel your head in the direction of the turn and let your board follow. Obviously as you advance you move further down the body finally landing all the way to the feet to initiate turns but for that first day out it made all the difference. Toe side turn your head to look straight up at the top of the hill. Heel side look to the bottom of the hill. Exaggerate it. I am actually taking a novice lesson this weekend to brush up on my switch which I have studiously avoided all these years. If we get any new exercises that I think helped I will pass them along.


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## ryannorthcott (Dec 17, 2010)

lab49232 said:


> Friends and boyfriends/girlfriends are the worst people to learn from. Years of teaching let me watch many a couple screaming at eachother until they finally paid for lessons (or broke up right there). There will be a lot of "just do this" followed by "I am doing it that doesn't work!" but if you teaching is a must then here's the most basic.
> Weight goes on the front foot (hardest thing for people to convince themselves to do) turns are all initiated with the front foot. its basically like a gas pedal. Obviously there's body movement/control/placement etc. but feet are a good place to start.
> Step 1: front toes go up, back foot stays flat
> Step 2: Back toes come up and now you're on heel edge
> ...


Haha trying to give my ex snowboarding lessons I think was our first step down the path to relationship hell. Can't think of many worse experiences, luckily the upgraded version shreds as hard as I do!

To the OP, good luck, you'll need more patience than you think.


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## CassMT (Mar 14, 2013)

tell her to put weight on the front foot and look where she wants to go

...and please shoot some video

(seriously, if she insists on learning the hard way, let her. after a run or two she will be more 'receptive' i bet!)


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## rgunzalez (Feb 17, 2012)

I would say to teach the falling leaf technique.

The nice thing about falling leaf is it gets the person used to the feel of being on the snow and using edges and they also immediately master stopping. Once they have it under their belt they can work towards pointing the board straight down, linking turns and carving. 

***Definitely make her wear wrist guards


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## BigmountainVMD (Oct 9, 2011)

shauna03 said:


> but unfortunately she won't sit down long enough to watch any like ive suggested. Shes convinced that shes gonna be a total pro her first day out. i just want to know how i can help her once we're out there.


Are you just gonna sit in the snow and watch her fall on her ass all day? If she doesn't want help now, I would be pissed if she all of a sudden needed a bunch of coaching on the hill when I wanted to ride...

Buy her a bunny hill lift pass and spend the extra on a lesson. Usually you can get a deal on rentals + lesson + lift ticket. 

Where are you riding at?


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## Mel M (Feb 2, 2012)

Emphasize safety above all else. Make her wear wrist pads and a helmet at the least. If she has tailbone protection, the better. Show her how to tuck her arms during a fall. A few nasty falls is the biggest killer of motivation when it comes to newbs.

If she's as cocky as she seems, make sure to tell her it's not an easy sport and many people give up on their first day. I've been training people in my department of my job for the past 7 years. I found the best way to deal with a big ego is to indirectly challenge him/her. By saying this you are telling her... "You might be one of those people that doesn't have what it takes to keep goin with this".

This is why you want to emphasize safety, especially with someone like this. They may be more aggressive in trying to learn their first few days and take more tumbles than less aggressive ones.


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## trapper (Jan 15, 2013)

I don't get why there seems to be this emphasis on quick learning in this sport. I've mentioned this elsewhere, but it seems like everyone always wants to brag up about how fast they caught on. Sure, some people latch onto it quick, but in my experience that seems to be the exception not the norm. 

And then you have people like this gal's coworker who thinks she's just going to go out there and pick it up right away, knowing nothing about it. I too have a coworker that wants to go with me and he has a similar attitude, though he's not being cocky about it at least. What is it about this sport that makes people think that all they have to do is show up and they're going to be hitting black diamonds by the end of their first day? It's so strange.

Maybe because skiing is fairly easy to pick up? Maybe because they saw good riders who make it look effortless?


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## Casual (Feb 9, 2011)

rgunzalez said:


> I would say to teach the falling leaf technique.
> 
> The nice thing about falling leaf is it gets the person used to the feel of being on the snow and using edges and they also immediately master stopping. Once they have it under their belt they can work towards pointing the board straight down, linking turns and carving.


OMG no don't do this...


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## Donutz (May 12, 2010)

trapper said:


> What is it about this sport that makes people think that all they have to do is show up and they're going to be hitting black diamonds by the end of their first day? It's so strange.


How hard can it be? There are no moving parts, just one piece of equipment, you can't even move your feet. You just stand on it, and go down the hill, right? Right??

:dizzy:


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## lab49232 (Sep 13, 2011)

rgunzalez said:


> I would say to teach the falling leaf technique.


Agreed, DO NOT do falling leaf. It stunts growth and progression. People end up getting comfortable with falling leaf, spend an entire season doing just that and think they can snowboard. Then the come and get lessons to progress, say they have been riding a bunch and end up holding everyone back. Learning correctly from the start is important. It's all muscle memory, so get those muscles doing the right thing from the start! 

It takes three days of busting your ass but after that progression comes quick, great thing about snowboarding, once you start to get it, you really really start to get it. Until then its bruised tailbones and complete exhaustion which I you should be proud of actually!


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## trapper (Jan 15, 2013)

Donutz said:


> How hard can it be? There are no moving parts, just one piece of equipment, you can't even move your feet. You just stand on it, and go down the hill, right? Right??
> 
> :dizzy:


It's like, idiot proof, right? lol


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## CassMT (Mar 14, 2013)

as i recall, the _very first_ thing to show someone is to kick around some with one foot in so they have some chance of getting off the chair without getting a spiral fracture of the shinbone

at some point i think you need to ask yourself....why do i have a friend like this? even if she gets into it, this is not the kind of person you want to ride with.


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## rgunzalez (Feb 17, 2012)

Casual said:


> OMG no don't do this...


I know falling leaf is looked down upon but it's really effective at getting people comfortable on their board and used to balancing their weight on both edges. It also is great for developing the muscles involved. I wouldn't recommend someone spend too much time with it but I think its a great place to start.


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## Casual (Feb 9, 2011)

I taught my wife a couple seasons back. I told her everyone can link turns by the end of the first day... she did it after the second run. She didn't need falling leaf, just an unrealistic expectation haha. Whatever works 

seriously though just show her how to control her board on the flat snow before you go on the lift. I spent about 30 min showing my wife what body positions to use and how to shift her weight to turn her board, i'd push her along the snow and get her to do a toeside and a heelside turn. Once she felt ok with that we worked on riding with one foot to get off the lift and then we went up and she got it really quick.


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## rgunzalez (Feb 17, 2012)

lab49232 said:


> Agreed, DO NOT do falling leaf. It stunts growth and progression. People end up getting comfortable with falling leaf, spend an entire season doing just that and think they can snowboard. Then the come and get lessons to progress, say they have been riding a bunch and end up holding everyone back. Learning correctly from the start is important. It's all muscle memory, so get those muscles doing the right thing from the start!
> 
> It takes three days of busting your ass but after that progression comes quick, great thing about snowboarding, once you start to get it, you really really start to get it. Until then its bruised tailbones and complete exhaustion which I you should be proud of actually!


I get what you're saying and totally agree that you'll see people get boxed into it. If someone spends more than a day or two doing falling leaf then they have a bad teacher. But I also don't recommend people hurting themselves by just diving in and dealing with it, there can be serious consequences.


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## Naturesabre (Jan 11, 2014)

trapper said:


> It's like, idiot proof, right? lol


If you ask my sister she would so say. My two sisters and I learned at the same time a couple seasons ago and one of them was flying down the mountain by the second day. I made it a point to catch up in the next few weeks so she wasn't better than me  It's probably still a toss up lol

Anyways to the OP, if you get the chance to set up lessons, it's the way to go. Less risk of way out of hand fights and much better habits will be encouraged. I know I rode with shabby skill my first season until I took a legitimate lesson the next season.


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## MelC (Mar 6, 2012)

I have to concur on the falling leaf. I once boarded with a group of skiier friends, one of whom had another friend up who was boarding. She indicated she was comfortable with blues so we headed off for some of the easier blue runs. Apparently she only knew falling leaf (and apparently only heelside at that). So everyone behind her had to try to navigate around her blind traverse across the hill arms akimbo and skidding along. From everything she had said before we got out there I firmly believe she thought she knew how to snowboard (although surely anyone with eyes can see that snowboarders off the bunny hills make turns to get down the hill). I left them after one run and recommended to our mutual friend that she might want to suggest some more lessons.


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## Casual (Feb 9, 2011)

Naturesabre said:


> Anyways to the OP, if you get the chance to set up lessons, it's the way to go. Less risk of way out of hand fights and much better habits will be encouraged. I know I rode with shabby skill my first season until I took a legitimate lesson the next season.


OP made it pretty clear that lessons aren't going to happen, why keep saying it...


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## chomps1211 (Mar 30, 2011)

rgunzalez said:


> I know falling leaf is looked down upon but it's really effective at getting people comfortable on their board and used to balancing their weight on both edges. It also is great for developing the muscles involved. I wouldn't recommend someone spend too much time with it but I think its a great place to start.


The problems with it come in when they stop there because progressing to pointing the board and _going_ from that point gets scary so they keep reverting. :dunno:

Two seasons now there's been this guy at the local who right after they groom in the evening, fucks up the steep slopes by sideslipping his way all the way down them. Does it 3-4 times in a row. Plowing up and ruining the fresh soft new groomer. More than once I've had to suppress the urge to catch up with him on the run and throw an elbow as I rode past!


OP,... _Whatever_ u do, don't let your freind become _*THAT*_ guy!!!!


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## lab49232 (Sep 13, 2011)

MelC said:


> I have to concur on the falling leaf. I once boarded with a group of skiier friends, one of whom had another friend up who was boarding. She indicated she was comfortable with blues so we headed off for some of the easier blue runs. Apparently she only knew falling leaf (and apparently only heelside at that). So everyone behind her had to try to navigate around her blind traverse across the hill arms akimbo and skidding along. From everything she had said before we got out there I firmly believe she thought she knew how to snowboard (although surely anyone with eyes can see that snowboarders off the bunny hills make turns to get down the hill). I left them after one run and recommended to our mutual friend that she might want to suggest some more lessons.


Yup. And you don't need to risk getting hurt starting without falling leaf. Have them stand on their heel edge, then they can play with board angle for a second, after that have them simply start to set JUST their front toe down like pressing a gas pedal the board will start turning down hill and they'll accelerate, then all they have to do is pull that toe back up to stop. do this all the way to one side of the hill, flip them over to their toe edge and do the same with setting and lifting their front heel. Taught for years and never had a single injury doing this. It teaches angle control and gets them use to riding both edges. Then later all you have to do is teach them to link the two.


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## surfinsnow (Feb 4, 2010)

Casual said:


> OP made it pretty clear that lessons aren't going to happen, why keep saying it...


He'll save money in the long run when they break up.

:laugh:


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## Casual (Feb 9, 2011)

surfinsnow said:


> He'll save money in the long run when they break up.
> 
> :laugh:


Doesn't anyone read anymore lol... it's a girl teaching her female friend. They just won't talk to each other for a year haha.


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## CassMT (Mar 14, 2013)

idk, Shauna is a pretty popular guy's name


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## Casual (Feb 9, 2011)

CassMT said:


> idk, Shauna is a pretty popular guy's name


True... like Shauna White.


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## trapper (Jan 15, 2013)

Casual said:


> True... like Shauna White.


:eusa_clap::eusa_clap::eusa_clap:


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## chomps1211 (Mar 30, 2011)

Casual said:


> Doesn't anyone read anymore lol... it's a girl teaching her female friend. They just won't talk to each other for a year haha.





CassMT said:


> idk, Shauna is a pretty popular guy's name


Well, I was aware of that early on, I simply used the term "That Guy" in it's most generalized, every person, (...._totallysexistmalecentric, thissiteisatotalsuasagefest"_) fashion to illustrate my point! 






(....besides, _in my head,_ they are still Hawt Snowbunny BFF's and naked pillow fights will ensue regardless of the outcome of "teaching a friend!!!!" :yahoo:  :tongue4:


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## jml22 (Apr 10, 2012)

Wrap them in bubble wrap


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## spino (Jan 8, 2013)

lab49232 said:


> Yup. And you don't need to risk getting hurt starting without falling leaf. Have them stand on their heel edge, then they can play with board angle for a second, after that have them simply start to set JUST their front toe down like pressing a gas pedal the board will start turning down hill and they'll accelerate, then all they have to do is pull that toe back up to stop. do this all the way to one side of the hill, flip them over to their toe edge and do the same with setting and lifting their front heel. Taught for years and never had a single injury doing this. It teaches angle control and gets them use to riding both edges. Then later all you have to do is teach them to link the two.


isn't this a description of the falling leaf? :icon_scratch:


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## speedjason (May 2, 2013)

Friends don't teach friends how to snowboard.
Man, I learned it quickly. Three buddies, first day. So eager to get on the lift even I was just teaching them how to skate. Didn't even want to listen what I was saying. They just wanted to go for it since how hard can it be. Man, were they wrong. Quit after an hour and went for skiing. Picked up skiing almost instantly. See my thread: http://www.snowboardingforum.com/sn...118881-guess-snowboarding-not-everyone-7.html


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## firstx1017 (Jan 10, 2011)

As an older rider who learned, I wanted to be able to learn how to stop and not run into people. I learned falling leaf to get used to balancing on the board and how to stop heelside. Once I felt comfortable with being able to stop and maneuver around people heelside, I then started on J turns and then linking my turns. 

We had the same thing happen with someone who said they "knew how to snowboard" - we had a distant cousin who said she knew how to snowboard and could "carve" - we met her at the mountain expecting never to be able to keep up with her. Well, all she knew how to do was heelside falling leaf down the mountain (on a green run only) - she wasn't going slow, but still! And she called it "carving" hmy:

We are in the process of teaching my husbands 33 year old daughter. However, we quickly realized she is in no way up to the physical shape that we are in. After an hour she wants to go back to the condo and take a nap and is done for the day. At this rate, it may take 3 seasons before she can link a turn. We did pay for lessons for her, but she is just not "getting" it yet. The next few weeks spending $75 for a lift ticket and then she's done after an hour - let's just say I'm not happy about that! She is now on her own to pay for her lift tickets - we'll see if she continues. At her age she should be running circles around us old folks. She knows we work out all year to be able to snowboard, but apparently she thinks she was in good enough shape. We took her on a 9 mile hike two weeks ago and she could not keep up with us. I should have known then.......

Anyhow, I hope the original poster will let us know how it went!


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## lab49232 (Sep 13, 2011)

spino said:


> isn't this a description of the falling leaf? :icon_scratch:


Nope, in fact the exact opposite. Falling leaf is riding purely your heelside edge and alternating which foot is pointed down hill. Basically you start setting your left toes down, go a ways down and left then stop and set your right toe down and go down a ways to the right and so on. 

The real way to learn is to alternate between heel and toe edge while riding from one edge of the trail to the other. You learn how to hold both heel and toe edge and always have your correct foot in the front. Literally the only thing you have let to learn after is linking the two. For beginners before when they got to the left or right side of the trail we literally had them stop, roll on to their stomach or back and then stand up and ride to the other edge to avoid having them catch an edge before they new how to link turns. There is almost no excuse for falling leaf, especially when you can use this method.


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## futurefunk (Jan 3, 2009)

Fortunately, I've taught friends who know how to "suck it up". If they are friends who are too stubborn for your teaching methods, then give up. I just taught them how to strap in, do falling leaf and do one run with them. And then I left to ride, and came to check in on them every other run to give out pointers. Not really teaching and they give me shit every time I taught them, but I did bring them with me!


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## rgunzalez (Feb 17, 2012)

lab49232 said:


> Nope, in fact the exact opposite. Falling leaf is riding purely your heelside edge and alternating which foot is pointed down hill. Basically you start setting your left toes down, go a ways down and left then stop and set your right toe down and go down a ways to the right and so on.
> 
> The real way to learn is to alternate between heel and toe edge while riding from one edge of the trail to the other. You learn how to hold both heel and toe edge and always have your correct foot in the front. Literally the only thing you have let to learn after is linking the two. For beginners before when they got to the left or right side of the trail we literally had them stop, roll on to their stomach or back and then stand up and ride to the other edge to avoid having them catch an edge before they new how to link turns. There is almost no excuse for falling leaf, especially when you can use this method.


What you're describing is exactly the falling leaf technique which is done in both toe and heel sides. And yes the goal is to start linking turns and then eventually carving. 

Glad to see you're on board with the falling leaf technique!


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## lab49232 (Sep 13, 2011)

rgunzalez said:


> What you're describing is exactly the falling leaf technique which is done in both toe and heel sides. And yes the goal is to start linking turns and then eventually carving.
> 
> Glad to see you're on board with the falling leaf technique!


You are completely misunderstanding me if you think that's falling leaf, or you don't know what falling leaf is. This is falling leaf, yes you can do it on toe or heel edge but notice how they always stay on one edge or the other and change their downhill foot. That is falling leaf and that is terrible.

Falling leaf snowboard skill at Isola 2010 - YouTube

Instead of switching your lead foot when you get to one side of the trail you stop and switch edges, keeping your lead foot the same. You can have them do this by literally laying down and rolling over if they have no control or you can have them pivot 180 degrees after coming to a stop if they are capable which helps them start to understand getting from toe to heel edge.

We fired people for teaching falling leaf, it builds improper muscle memory changing your lead foot constantly like that and promotes poor riding posture.

Falling leaf snowboard skill at Isola 2010 - YouTube


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## rgunzalez (Feb 17, 2012)

lab49232 said:


> You are completely misunderstanding me if you think that's falling leaf, or you don't know what falling leaf is. This is falling leaf, yes you can do it on toe or heel edge but notice how they always stay on one edge or the other and change their downhill foot. That is falling leaf and that is terrible.
> 
> Falling leaf snowboard skill at Isola 2010 - YouTube
> 
> ...


So the only difference you now claim is that with your technique the rider stops to switch edges after each traverse, to maintain the same lead foot? As opposed to concentrating on one edge for a longer period of time (repetition can be good for muscle memory). The falling-leaf commandments don't prohibit the rider from stopping to switch edges at any time. Maybe those people you fired should get their jobs back if you tell them to have the rider switch edges after each traverse?? :dunno:


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## stillz (Jan 5, 2010)

I believe lab is describing garlands. The falling leaf is a series of linked traverses, while garlands are a series of J-turns done on the same edge. The goal with garlands is to build up to getting the board parallel to the fall line and flat-based before reengaging the edge and turning to a stop. When a student can fully commit to the fall line, they are ready to try their first turns. 

As a new-ish instructor, this is something I have been thinking about lately. I have always been taught to introduce straight glides and J-turns in the flats, then sideslips, then falling leaf, then garlands, then finally turns. However, moving directly from J-turns in the base area to garlands on the bunny slope is a more consistent progression than actually teaching sideslip and falling leaf. There is always a definite lead foot and you travel sideways while the board goes in the direction it is pointed, just like when you're riding for real. Sideslips and falling leaf both interrupt that consistency. Sideslips even get away from the idea of twisting the board, which I try to constantly hammer on during the whole beginner progression. I generally teach both, but try to move on to garlands as quickly as I possibly can. Spending extra time on flatter terrain really helps in this regard.

Anybody else have any opinions on this? Particularly if you have experience teaching?


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## lab49232 (Sep 13, 2011)

rgunzalez said:


> So the only difference *you now claim* is that with your technique the rider stops to switch edges after each traverse, to maintain the same lead foot? As opposed to concentrating on one edge for a longer period of time (repetition can be good for muscle memory). The falling-leaf commandments don't prohibit the rider from stopping to switch edges at any time. Maybe those people you fired should get their jobs back if you tell them to have the rider switch edges after each traverse?? :dunno:


I'll have to assume you're just trolling at this point as my description hasn't changed. But my technique, the one I was taught to be a level 3 instructor, focuses on getting people comfortable with body position, angle and form, while riding properly. Falling leaf kids you ask "which foot do you put forward" and they all say both, and they aren't lying because that's what their body does. 

The goal is obviously to never have them laying down to switch sides but for the people it feels most unnatural with you have to do what you have to do. They get it. Riding your correct edge at slow speeds all the way down the hill is proper riding for learning. If you think people controlling speed and body position while riding down the hill properly and slowly having them or tricking them in to linking turns is the same as, or not as good as teaching falling leaf please NEVER help someone snowboard. You'll only hurt them in the long run. There's a reason the rest of us took classes and spent years learning how to do this.


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## lab49232 (Sep 13, 2011)

stillz said:


> I believe lab is describing garlands. The falling leaf is a series of linked traverses, while garlands are a series of J-turns done on the same edge. The goal with garlands is to build up to getting the board parallel to the fall line and flat-based before reengaging the edge and turning to a stop. When a student can fully commit to the fall line, they are ready to try their first turns.
> 
> As a new-ish instructor, this is something I have been thinking about lately. I have always been taught to introduce straight glides and J-turns in the flats, then sideslips, then falling leaf, then garlands, then finally turns. However, moving directly from J-turns in the base area to garlands on the bunny slope is a more consistent progression than actually teaching sideslip and falling leaf. There is always a definite lead foot and you travel sideways while the board goes in the direction it is pointed, just like when you're riding for real. Sideslips and falling leaf both interrupt that consistency. Sideslips even get away from the idea of twisting the board, which I try to constantly hammer on during the whole beginner progression. I generally teach both, but try to move on to garlands as quickly as I possibly can. Spending extra time on flatter terrain really helps in this regard.
> 
> Anybody else have any opinions on this? Particularly if you have experience teaching?


You are near exactly correct! Falling leaf is a progression that is used in mass group lessons to help kids get up and down the hill in a single lesson so they can go back to mom and dad and say they made it without falling. My resort frowned upon it as we had large school groups who came for weekly lessons. The falling leaf method led to people teaching the same lesson every week to the same kids and clogging the bunny hill or worse yet people being confused about their level and ending up in higher classes and slowing down the group or even hurting themselves and other riders. People who have taken instruction classes know all about this. 

Stillz, Keep it up and enjoy ever minute of it. I paid my way through college doing it and you will never find a more gratifying job even though the pay sucks (But the free pass adds hundreds of dollars to your check, remember that). Ride in your free time. Use slow lessons to work on stuff yourself. I taught myself switch while teaching beginner lessons and turned that into learning how to launch switch on kickers and rails while teaching beginner park lessons. It helps you practice more than you can ever convince yourself to do on your own and your kids love to laugh at you when you fall.


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## stillz (Jan 5, 2010)

Your coworkers love it even more. If they see you fall and call you on it that day, you buy a round. I rarely ever fall in uniform now.


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## lab49232 (Sep 13, 2011)

stillz said:


> Your coworkers love it even more. If they see you fall and call you on it that day, you buy a round. I rarely ever fall in uniform now.


Ha! So true! We were lucky enough to get free paid ride time anytime lessons weren't full so those of us without a lesson just went and played "HORSE" for drinks after lessons.


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## rgunzalez (Feb 17, 2012)

lab49232 said:


> I'll have to assume you're just trolling at this point as my description hasn't changed. But my technique, the one I was taught to be a level 3 instructor, focuses on getting people comfortable with body position, angle and form, while riding properly. Falling leaf kids you ask "which foot do you put forward" and they all say both, and they aren't lying because that's what their body does.
> 
> The goal is obviously to never have them laying down to switch sides but for the people it feels most unnatural with you have to do what you have to do. They get it. Riding your correct edge at slow speeds all the way down the hill is proper riding for learning. If you think people controlling speed and body position while riding down the hill properly and slowly having them or tricking them in to linking turns is the same as, or not as good as teaching falling leaf please NEVER help someone snowboard. You'll only hurt them in the long run. There's a reason the rest of us took classes and spent years learning how to do this.


Nope not trolling, you initially said: "Falling leaf is riding purely your heelside edge" Then you said: "you don't know what falling leaf is. ... yes you can do it on toe or heel edge".

The irony is that you don't seem to know what it is but tell me that I don't, yet also want to change and confine the definition to support your bias towards it and imply that I'm trolling. 

I don't care either way bro, just interesting that you think such an innocent technique is going to "hurt" someone and assume people who learn or teach falling leaf are leading people astray. 

I could tell you that I started out with falling leaf and ended up riding double-blacks at Alpental and Crystal regularly my first season, or that the one person I taught falling-leaf too also did that - but I'm not gonna do that :yahoo:.


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## lab49232 (Sep 13, 2011)

rgunzalez said:


> Nope not trolling, you initially said: "Falling leaf is riding purely your heelside edge" Then you said: "you don't know what falling leaf is. ... yes you can do it on toe or heel edge".
> 
> The irony is that you don't seem to know what it is but tell me that I don't, yet also want to change and confine the definition to support your bias towards it and imply that I'm trolling.
> 
> ...


Fair enough on me saying heelside edge earlier. It just happens to be most common. You can do falling leaf toeside, it's just not nearly as common. And I never said falling leaf will always ruin riding but as a general teaching tool it does far more negative than positive in the majority of situations and is hihgly frowned upon by instructed riders. I'm glad you were able to learn that way as the more solid riders out there the better, but just because you managed to do it does not mean you should suggest it for everyone. Especially suggesting it as a proper teaching technique. Misinformation like that leads to people who were lucky and bought a snowboard up to their nose and actually got the right fit so tell other people to do the same. Misinformation has been hurting this sport for years and everyone needs to do their part to keep from promoting it.


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## spino (Jan 8, 2013)

lab49232 said:


> You are near exactly correct! Falling leaf is a progression that is used in mass group lessons to help kids get up and down the hill in a single lesson so they can go back to mom and dad and say they made it without falling. My resort frowned upon it as we had large school groups who came for weekly lessons. The falling leaf method led to people teaching the same lesson every week to the same kids and clogging the bunny hill or worse yet people being confused about their level and ending up in higher classes and slowing down the group or even hurting themselves and other riders. People who have taken instruction classes know all about this.
> 
> Stillz, Keep it up and enjoy ever minute of it. I paid my way through college doing it and you will never find a more gratifying job even though the pay sucks (But the free pass adds hundreds of dollars to your check, remember that). Ride in your free time. Use slow lessons to work on stuff yourself. I taught myself switch while teaching beginner lessons and turned that into learning how to launch switch on kickers and rails while teaching beginner park lessons. It helps you practice more than you can ever convince yourself to do on your own and your kids love to laugh at you when you fall.


agreed, there is indeed a slight difference between the falling leaf and the garland.
with the former you are just sliding down, whereas during a garland you get the first feeling of engaging your edge, even if just for a few seconds.

having said that, based on my personal experience, i do not think learning the falling leaf is a bad thing per se: on the opposite, it is a very useful "safety tool" which will enable you to at least try and come to a complete stop.

i have seen quite a lot of folks trying to commit to a turn and then being forced to just fall because they did not know how to stop. :laugh:

this is how i progressed at the beginning (having ridden the first 5-6 times ALWAYS with my instructor):
- very basic one-footing on flat, then on a mild slope to learn how to stop both heelside and toeside
- half an hour of falling leaf (both sides) until i could manage to control the board in all directions and stop when needed
- garlands until i could confidently get straight downhill
- first basic turns, both sides, both regular and goofy (one lap each side).

most of this hand in hand with my instructor, which allowed me to progress without basically any falls or bruises and to hit my first blue run (here in italy, i think it would be a green in the US?) in about 3 days.

from that point on, we did the falling leaf again only when we began hitting the steeper slopes to cope with those sections in which i was still not confident enough to make turns.


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## spino (Jan 8, 2013)

lab49232 said:


> Fair enough on me saying heelside edge earlier. It just happens to be most common. You can do falling leaf toeside, it's just not nearly as common. And I never said falling leaf will always ruin riding but as a general teaching tool it does far more negative than positive in the majority of situations and is hihgly frowned upon by instructed riders. I'm glad you were able to learn that way as the more solid riders out there the better, but just because you managed to do it does not mean you should suggest it for everyone. Especially suggesting it as a proper teaching technique. Misinformation like that leads to people who were lucky and bought a snowboard up to their nose and actually got the right fit so tell other people to do the same. Misinformation has been hurting this sport for years and everyone needs to do their part to keep from promoting it.


how can you possibly think to beginning teaching someone how to make a turn if he still has no control over the board?
as i have said, i think that learning how to let the board slide and then come to a full stop is the first and very basic step to learn.
the key, i think, is moving to more demanding tasks as soon as possible and not let the falling leaf become your habit.
but it's a skill that needs to be taught nevertheless.


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## jlm1976 (Feb 26, 2009)

I used to love getting turboleafers as students. In 2-3 runs I could get them making solid linked turns. They already have great balance and board control and it's just a matter of getting them comfy toeside. 
falling leaf has its uses in the right circumstances with the right student. Same with Garlands. 
Garlands and falling leaf both take a similar skillset to accomplish really. It's just a question of what happens when you reach the side of the trail(come back toeside or switch heelside). Both require a fair amount of flatland work before the student is ready for it. 
I prefer Garlands as it gets the new riders comfy on both sides quicker generally(there are no absolutes in teaching). But like most drills, their effectiveness is directly proportional to the skill of the instructor using it. 
Having said all that, if you are wrapping up a lesson and only got to heelsside falling leaf, I would encourage the student to explore toeside falling leaf on their own.


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## Ungrateful (Mar 31, 2013)

speedjason said:


> Friends don't teach friends how to snowboard.
> Man, I learned it quickly. Three buddies, first day. So eager to get on the lift even I was just teaching them how to skate. Didn't even want to listen what I was saying. They just wanted to go for it since how hard can it be. Man, were they wrong. Quit after an hour and went for skiing. Picked up skiing almost instantly. See my thread: http://www.snowboardingforum.com/sn...118881-guess-snowboarding-not-everyone-7.html


Just wanted to reply to second this...When your an 'authority' figure as an instructor people are more willing to listen since they are paying for it or hold you on a higher pedestal. However, to friends your just yacking in their ear breaking their "concentration" and what you say doesn't work.

That shouldn't stop you from taking willing friends to the mountain though imo. I'm willing to take 10 friends to snowboard to get 1-2 dedicated shredders out of it. 

I have however wasted great days trying to get people that don't listen slope ready. If they are zoning you out just tell them straight up that they need to listen or you're peacing out. If you realize they are just doing their own thing and you're bored as hell just leave them. Tell them you are going to get a run in while they practice.


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## ThisIsSnow (Dec 7, 2013)

snowprofessor.com has a great description of a beginner's progression, and breaks everything down step by step in video/text form. It includes most of the things people have mentioned here (heel/toeside, garlands, J turns, C turns...) Try using that to teach your friend!

Or better, if you are out on the slopes for two days - teach her on the first day, let her realize how hard it is, then make her watch the videos that night 

oh, and teaching proper fall technique is crucial.


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## speedjason (May 2, 2013)

so how did your friend do? was she like a pro or just quit after an hour?


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## by1113 (Jan 22, 2014)

Hi guys, 

Since I was a newbie of riding a snowboard, like 4 yrs ago, I didn't know where to go, so instead I went through Youtube searching for self-learning materials and got a set of teaching videos made by experts. Since then, I made a list of what should I learn and have been organizing/updating the it. I used this list to teach my girlfriend and several friends of mine over the past few seasons and it seems to work out for them.

I'd like to share it and hopefully it'll be helpful for those who would like to learn by themselves and those who need a checklist for teaching... :laugh: - by a snowboarding lover

https://www.facebook.com/notes/brian-yu/snowboarding-notes-with-learning-tips/317332814874


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## ALshooter (Nov 11, 2013)

by1113 said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> Since I was a newbie of riding a snowboard, like 4 yrs ago, I didn't know where to go, so instead I went through Youtube searching for self-learning materials and got a set of teaching videos made by experts. Since then, I made a list of what should I learn and have been organizing/updating the it. I used this list to teach my girlfriend and several friends of mine over the past few seasons and it seems to work out for them.
> 
> ...


Thanks by1113. I've got a trip to Telluride scheduled for Feb 27-28th. This will be my second time snowboarding @ the age of 35. First time was 3 days @ Loveland on rental gear last March. Apparently it was the best weekend of that season. 14" of fresh the night before our second day. Took a couple private lessons and I loved it, my feet and butt didn't. Now I've got my own setup that actually fits. Watching these videos is just getting me more stoked. Hopefully I'll have good conditions this year too!


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## aiidoneus (Apr 7, 2011)

lab49232 said:


> Friends and boyfriends/girlfriends are the worst people to learn from.


This is a terribly general statement. Teaching some of my friends and girlfriend has been one of the best experiences in my life. It has made my relationship with my girlfriend much stronger. It has made me a better instructor in a lot of ways.


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## ALshooter (Nov 11, 2013)

aiidoneus said:


> This is a terribly general statement. Teaching some of my friends and girlfriend has been one of the best experiences in my life. It has made my relationship with my girlfriend much stronger. It has made me a better instructor in a lot of ways.


I think that there are exceptions to this statement, as you've pointed out. I can't really say since I'm still new to boarding. I do understand the reason behind this advise though. I'm a certified pistol instructor and I refuse to train my daughter or significant other based on the same idea. I let them get the basics and general safety from another instructor then casually work on other things during informal plinking sessions.


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## aiidoneus (Apr 7, 2011)

I don't know much about your friend. So I'll assume she is a beginner.

First thing, if they have never seen a snowboard. Explain where things are on the board so when you tell them things they understand (Tip, Tail, Heel, Toe Edge, binding parts, strap, buckle, high back).

Ok, so now they know what a snowboard is. Strap a foot in (whatever they are goofy/regular) What next? They are going to need to know how to get around the hill. Show them how to skate with both options. Heel side or Toe side, some people find one or the other easier. Once you have skated a few board lengths in one direction. Show them how to turn around and skate back to your original spot.

Before you head up the bunnies. Find a very gentle slope where they will come to a stop without needing to know how. You want them to travel 3 board lengths and come to a stop. With one foot still unstrapped get them to do one lap of each:

* Up and down motion. Ask them what is more comfortable, super tall, super compressed or somewhere in the middle
* Lean toeside/lean heelside/middle. Repeat the above question except for these range of motions
* Lean back/lean forward/middle

You are trying to let them discover that they want to be in a balanced stance in the middle of the board.

So they are feeling more comfortable on the board. Time to turn. There are a few basic turns by dragging the heel or toe. But lets dive into Hip-Nose turns. Making sure that you slight incline area is wide enough for a 1-2 board length turn in both directions. 

A Hip-Nose turn is trying to help them discover that they want to look where they are going and that by moving their weight they can control the board. Still with one foot unstrapped. Demonstrate how to do a Hip-Nose turn

* Point down the hill
* Turning your hips in the direction you want to go
* and pointing your nose in the direction you want to go
* You will start to turn slightly and should come to an easy stop

For some people it helps to drag their back toe for a toeside turn and heelside for a heel turn. You can do turns just using this technique if they struggle with Hip-Nose.

Ok. It has been about 20 minutes since we started. Might be longer if they really struggle with skating or turning. Don't spend forever on Turning. You really are just giving them 'Time on the board'. But sliding around might not be super fun and they are eager to move on.

Gas Pedal Time.

Head up the magic carpet/bunny hill. Show them how the gas pedal works with one foot unstrapped. Press on the gas makes the board go faster. Letting off the gas slows it down. For some people it is best to try this with one foot unstrapped so they can use their one foot as balance or to catch themselves if they fall. Let them practice this on both edges and strap in as soon as they feel comfortable.

This is roughly a beginner lesson give or take depending on how skilled they are. Sometimes you are doing turns in the first hour. Sometimes they can't even stand up and you work on giving them the confidence to just stand while strapped in. Be patient. Give positive feedback first and if they are doing something wrong. Give them feedback like 'something to work on is X'. Don't tell them they suck at it. Also try to work on one issue at a time, don't overwhelm them with feedback.

Ramble over.


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## DiggerXJ (Apr 4, 2013)

My girlfriend actually taught me how to snowboard. Looking back now she did a pretty decent job, although she dragged me to a full run way too early and I was dead after that first day. She also didn't really instill the importance of edge control. Other than that I thought it was a good lesson, and was riding blacks after day 3 for 20+ days on the mountains. I love her for helping and it's definitely possible to teach someone as long as they're committed to learning


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## aiidoneus (Apr 7, 2011)

ALshooter said:


> I think that there are exceptions to this statement, as you've pointed out. I can't really say since I'm still new to boarding. I do understand the reason behind this advise though. I'm a certified pistol instructor and I refuse to train my daughter or significant other based on the same idea. I let them get the basics and general safety from another instructor then casually work on other things during informal plinking sessions.


There is certainly a difference. You can't approach most friends/family with the same technique as teaching someone else. In the case of a stranger they tend to see you as an authority/expert figure. They take your advice as exactly that, advice.

Family I find see themselves as equals to you regardless of their skill on the snow. How you provide feedback and advice has to be done differently. I absolutely love how my girlfriend and I now can work on stuff together and help each other progress. Over the last 2 and half years we have both got much better at helping each other. This has helped me when teaching other friends who wanted to try it out.

But you are right, generally people are not great teachers to begin with (Despite their actual skill level). Then you add an extra layer of complexity and it is hard not to fail.


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## by1113 (Jan 22, 2014)

ALshooter said:


> Thanks by1113. I've got a trip to Telluride scheduled for Feb 27-28th. This will be my second time snowboarding @ the age of 35. First time was 3 days @ Loveland on rental gear last March. Apparently it was the best weekend of that season. 14" of fresh the night before our second day. Took a couple private lessons and I loved it, my feet and butt didn't. Now I've got my own setup that actually fits. Watching these videos is just getting me more stoked. Hopefully I'll have good conditions this year too!


Thanks! I'm glad it works for you. I haven't been in any private lesson but I guess that'll work much faster. haha. 14" fresh powder sounds amazing. CO is way better than what I could have near Kentucky. man.. Is you setup including knee pads, butt pads, and a helmet? It helps quite a lot for me especially for psychological barriers (lean forward, linking turns, speed, or jumps)... Just checked the mountain info (Largest Ski Resort Vertical Drop, Highest Mountains - Ski Stats) and Telluride seems to be the 2nd largest in Colorado Rockies. It'll be a good time! Have fun


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## ALshooter (Nov 11, 2013)

by1113 said:


> Thanks! I'm glad it works for you. I haven't been in any private lesson but I guess that'll work much faster. haha. 14" fresh powder sounds amazing. CO is way better than what I could have near Kentucky. man.. Is you setup including knee pads, butt pads, and a helmet? It helps quite a lot for me especially for psychological barriers (lean forward, linking turns, speed, or jumps)... Just checked the mountain info (Largest Ski Resort Vertical Drop, Highest Mountains - Ski Stats) and Telluride seems to be the 2nd largest in Colorado Rockies. It'll be a good time! Have fun


I've got knee pads from shooting 3-gun and did get a helmet. Probably will not use the pads though. I would like to have some tailbone padding though.


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