# How to bend the knees more



## Levike93 (Mar 29, 2019)

Hello everyone,

I am an intermediate rider and have arrived to the point in my “evolution” as a rider, where not bending my knees enough is becoming a bit of an issue. I am very self-conscious of this and always try to concentrate and try to bend my knees but somehow my back knee seems to be bending just fine but my front knee seems to be a different story. It somehow feels “hard” and unnatural to bend my front knee. I have already set my highback to a more aggressive angle. It helped a bit but not enough.

Now I come to my question. Is there any stance angle/width that facilitates the bending of the knees? Currently I am riding at the standard width of the board (using the middle binding holes and at 15, -15 (duck stance).

Any thoughts that may help would be great!

Thank you very much in advance!



Levi


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## SteezyRidah303 (Oct 5, 2010)

Levike93 said:


> Hello everyone,
> 
> It somehow feels “hard” and unnatural to bend my front knee. I have already set my highback to a more aggressive angle. It helped a bit but not enough.
> 
> ...


You dont want to force your knees to bend with an akward stance, that will just suck on long days. The main purpose of forward lean is to give you more response on heel side turns. I personally ride every binding I own with ZERO forward lean. Its all preference, we are all geometrically/anatomically different and what feels great for one person will feel awkward for another. I do encourage you to experiment to find your personal sweet spot, but dont make forcing the knees to bend a criteria. 


Instead of thinking of it as trying to just straight up bend them, focus more on getting your weight over your front foot, this will naturally force a better riding stance.


The only time you really want to be leaning back is if the snow is so deep that you are worried about burying the nose...

Its a very odd feeling at first to lean forward. A common tip I give when teaching is to reach the front hand forward, pointing the direction you want to go, this will also help you get your weight over the front foot and engage the edges more efficiently


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## wrathfuldeity (Oct 5, 2007)

Without your board, just squat and rest your elbows on your knees...notice your stance width and angle of you feet....this is a good place to start with your binding set up. Then as ur riding/just mellow cruise on a comfortable green or blue run, do the same squat with elbows resting on your knees. For more visual details, find the creepy basement video...there is also reference of using your leading knee and pointing your turns as Steezy notes above.

and I also use 0 forward lean


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## leeroy996 (Feb 17, 2019)

wrathfuldeity said:


> Without your board, just squat and rest your elbows on your knees...notice your stance width and angle of you feet....this is a good place to start with your binding set up. Then as ur riding/just mellow cruise on a comfortable green or blue run, do the same squat with elbows resting on your knees. For more visual details, find the creepy basement video...there is also reference of using your leading knee and pointing your turns as Steezy notes above.
> 
> and I also use 0 forward lean


Does moving your knees closer together or further apart make any difference ?


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## drblast (Feb 28, 2017)

Reading between the lines it sounds like most of your weight when riding is on your back foot or you're leaning back toward the tail off the board. This is a very common problem.

Bent knees are not the goal, relaxed absorbent legs and proper weight distribution are. If you're doing it right you won't have to worry about knee bend.

Crouch down with your back straight and relax as much as possible. Exaggerate putting your weight on your front foot and leaning forward. The second you feel your legs tense up while riding, that means you got scared or off balance even if you didn't fall -- make a note that something went wrong.

Flat basing over bumpy terrain is a great way to know you're balanced properly.


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## chomps1211 (Mar 30, 2011)

leeroy996 said:


> Does moving your knees closer together or further apart make any difference ?


^this^

If you widen your stance width, it will force you into more of a squat position to begin with.

Also, as far as binding angles go,... since you seem to feel you get low enough with your trailing leg,... (Sounds a bit like your in the backseat riding like that, but I digress,) you might try extending your lead foot binding angle out to +18˚ or even +21˚. See if that makes getting lower up front any easier. Just be sure to bring your rear fooot angles in by the same amount. (Don't need you blowing out yur knees!)


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## speedjason (May 2, 2013)

Need a video of you actually riding.
Maybe you are counter rotated that's what's causing you to have a hard time bending knees.


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## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

drblast said:


> Bent knees are not the goal, relaxed absorbent legs and proper weight distribution are. If you're doing it right you won't have to worry about knee bend.


This ^

Knees don't have to always be bent. But bending the knees should feel very natural and doable when you need to. So the number 1 thing you meed to work on is your stance, make sure you're in a position which allows you to bend the knees comfortably and without any strain... this may be a wider stance, different angles, fwd lean, body alignment, etc etc etc.


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## Rip154 (Sep 23, 2017)

Is it slow spring conditions without "summer" wax on by any chance? Sometimes that forces you to keep your front leg straight and weight over your tail just to resist the drag.


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## poser (Mar 7, 2018)

I’m going to recommend that you set your binding angles to +/- 15 degrees, no forward lean on your bindings, and check that your stance width is appropriate for getting into a squat position, slightly wider than shoulder width.


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## Rip154 (Sep 23, 2017)

Why won't you bend a knee?!


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## Myoko (Dec 11, 2018)

drblast said:


> Bent knees are not the goal, relaxed absorbent legs and proper weight distribution are. If you're doing it right you won't have to worry about knee bend.
> 
> Crouch down with your back straight and relax as much as possible. Exaggerate putting your weight on your front foot and leaning forward. The second you feel your legs tense up while riding, that means you got scared or off balance even if you didn't fall -- make a note that something went wrong.
> 
> Flat basing over bumpy terrain is a great way to know you're balanced properly.


Big fan of the comment above. Back straighter and soft legs. Most people try and get low by bending their back rather than dropping their ass.


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## snoway (Jan 25, 2017)

Myoko said:


> drblast said:
> 
> 
> > Bent knees are not the goal, relaxed absorbent legs and proper weight distribution are. If you're doing it right you won't have to worry about knee bend.
> ...


Because they don’t have the flexibility to get their ass down so they compensate by bending their back.


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## buller_scott (Jun 10, 2018)

Levike93 said:


> Hello everyone,
> 
> *Now I come to my question. Is there any stance angle/width that facilitates the bending of the knees? Currently I am riding at the standard width of the board (using the middle binding holes and at 15, -15 (duck stance).
> *
> ...


Therein lies a potential problem, in my opinion. Duck stance is just WAY too universally accepted as a viable stance option by MOST of the snowboarding community - even people who hardly ride switch. 

Do you ride switch much? If not, let go of duck stance for a day, and set your angles to something like Front +21 / Rear +6. You might be pleasantly surprised, as I was, at how much more absorbent your legs are in the chop, how much more control you have over uneven terrain and surprise undulations in flat light. Don't even get me started on how it improved my carving. 

And yes, it helped me bend both legs WAY more - both legs now acting as coilover suspension for my upper body, it felt like my upper body was just hovering above the snow, as my legs pumped up and down with the contours of the snow - and yet, VERY little fatigue, from this style of stance. 

I might be alone in my thoughts, but there was a Youtube video where one of the famous snowboard Youtubers is showing his park and freeride setups. His "freeride" angles are, if I recall, +18 / -12. Lol. That's not a freeride stance. That's a solid park stance, on a freeride board. 

I get the whole "each to their own" thing. Take a risk, try forward angles on your back binding [if you don't ride switch so much], and see if you like it.


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## Kijima (Mar 3, 2019)

buller_scott said:


> Therein lies a potential problem, in my opinion. Duck stance is just WAY too universally accepted as a viable stance option by MOST of the snowboarding community - even people who hardly ride switch.
> 
> Do you ride switch much? If not, let go of duck stance for a day, and set your angles to something like Front +21 / Rear +6. You might be pleasantly surprised, as I was, at how much more absorbent your legs are in the chop, how much more control you have over uneven terrain and surprise undulations in flat light. Don't even get me started on how it improved my carving.
> 
> ...


You are not alone there. Duck stance actually stops most people completing their heel turns as that rear foot really limits upper body rotation, gravity takes over and the rider abandons the turn again. Do that 300 times a day and you just learned terrible muscle memory for snowboarding.
Back when my form was poor I rode 15 15 duck. 
Now my form is much improved I find myself at 21 6 duck and if you do the math on that all that actually changed was my upper body became more open.
I think if you want to learn carving for example, set up your stance for carving, learn it, lock it down and then see how far you can push your stance back to where it was whilst still getting the new job done.

Nothing tested nothing learned.


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## poser (Mar 7, 2018)

My thoughts on the +\- 15 “Duck”
Stance as a starting point is that many people lack proper squat mechanics to be able to get low aka squat. If you position the feet slightly wider than shoulder width, angle the feet out, drive the knees out (as opposed to having knee cave on one or both feet foot), you are set up in a symmetrical position to perform the movement with your Bodyweight equally distributed over your lower body. Angle Adjustments made from there would be based on the fact that the individual can perform the fundamental movement mechanics.


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## Kijima (Mar 3, 2019)

6Snowboarding is inherently an asymmetric sport though, it can only become symmetric if we try to ride switch exactly as we ride normally.
So if we just focus on riding in one direction for a minute we quickly learn that the duck rear foot limits us opening up our chest. 
We need an open chest to complete our heel turns.
Most peoples heel turn is worse than their toe turn so why set up in a way that inhibits your heel turn? 
If you answer "I ride switch 50% of the time" then you are exempt lol but most of us dont most of us are leaving a lot on the table right there.

As heel turns are harder, set up in a heel friendly manner and put a little extra work into your toe turns. I bet your heel turns start running across the hill rather than down it and your toe turns quickly get back to where they were.


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## Paxford (Jan 7, 2019)

buller_scott said:


> Therein lies a potential problem, in my opinion. Duck stance is just WAY too universally accepted as a viable stance option by MOST of the snowboarding community - even people who hardly ride switch.


Couldn't agree more. I showed a friend a highly directional board and the first thing they asked was how are you going to ride switch on that? They had a hard time looking past that to really see how rad the board was. And they don't ride switch particularly well themselves. It's like the masses are switch brainwashed.

People chase after switch too early in their progression. Learn how to drive really well in FORWARD before you start messing with REVERSE.


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## wrathfuldeity (Oct 5, 2007)

Paxford said:


> Couldn't agree more. I showed a friend a highly directional board and the first thing they asked was how are you going to ride switch on that? They had a hard time looking past that to really see how rad the board was. And they don't ride switch particularly well themselves. It's like the masses are switch brainwashed.
> 
> People chase after switch too early in their progression. Learn how to drive really well in FORWARD before you start messing with REVERSE.


OTOH, learn first how to ride switch well and then you will be highly adaptable.


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## buller_scott (Jun 10, 2018)

Kijima said:


> lock it down and then see how far you can push your stance back to where it was whilst still getting the new job done.


VERY interesting approach - I'm gonna recommend this to my cousin who isn't interested in riding switch, yet has a solid duck stance [go figure]



Paxford said:


> Couldn't agree more. I showed a friend a highly directional board and the first thing they asked was how are you going to ride switch on that? They had a hard time looking past that to really see how rad the board was. And they don't ride switch particularly well themselves. It's like the masses are switch brainwashed.
> 
> People chase after switch too early in their progression. Learn how to drive really well in FORWARD before you start messing with REVERSE.


I agree. I know people who like to chip in their two cents so they dont feel left out, when a newbie asks me for my advice - their advice being "nah you want to have at least -9 on the back foot for when you learn to ride switch" - this advice being given to people who cannot link turns yet. 

perhaps people just love the idea of being able to ride switch, so they set up as such, without actually riding that way. cos it's cooler to look like you ride switch, i guess. 



wrathfuldeity said:


> OTOH, learn first how to ride switch well and then you will be highly adaptable.


or, like the japanese kids at my home hill do when they get to about 15-17, spend a whole season riding with the board set up the other way around, and doing everything - skating, lifts, straight airs - switch. never had the substance to do that myself, mind you, but i totally admire people who do.


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## Myoko (Dec 11, 2018)

Personally, I love riding switch and personally can't deal with adjusting a solid technique in order to ride switch on something that is not perfect for it, I just don't want to be able to blame anything if I am not doing something as well as I would like. Hmmmm I sound like a perfectionist or at least someone who will use anything as an excuse for shit form


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## Scalpelman (Dec 5, 2017)

I ride one direction 90% of the time. But the reason is because I SUCK riding switch. I wish someone told me to learn switch when I was first starting. Now it involves a few painful days on the mountain to learn, which I keep avoiding.


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## freshy (Nov 18, 2009)

buller_scott said:


> Therein lies a potential problem, in my opinion. Duck stance is just WAY too universally accepted as a viable stance option by MOST of the snowboarding community - even people who hardly ride switch.
> 
> Do you ride switch much? If not, let go of duck stance for a day, and set your angles to something like Front +21 / Rear +6. You might be pleasantly surprised, as I was, at how much more absorbent your legs are in the chop, how much more control you have over uneven terrain and surprise undulations in flat light. Don't even get me started on how it improved my carving.
> 
> ...


I just want to point out there is no "right" way. I grew up when +45/0 was a actual recommended stance, +/+ was the norm after that and when duck became the trend my feet felt at home, did not matter I rode switch like 5% of the time if I'm being generous. I have never felt comfortable having my rear foot point forward in surfing or longboarding either.


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## smellysell (Oct 29, 2018)

buller_scott said:


> or, like the japanese kids at my home hill do when they get to about 15-17, spend a whole season riding with the board set up the other way around, and doing everything - skating, lifts, straight airs - switch. never had the substance to do that myself, mind you, but i totally admire people who do.


I might actually set up a board this way for the next few weeks of slush before the mountain closes. Never can commit to actually practicing otherwise and what else am I going to do chasing the kid around the next few weeks. 

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## Paxford (Jan 7, 2019)

freshy said:


> I just want to point out there is no "right" way. I grew up when +45/0 was a actual recommended stance, +/+ was the norm after that and when duck became the trend my feet felt at home, did not matter I rode switch like 5% of the time if I'm being generous. I have never felt comfortable having my rear foot point forward in surfing or longboarding either.


This ^^^ surfers don't ride backwards very often or far. When they do it's usually a gimmick to make their friends laugh at how kooky they look. Wide legs, butt sticking out = kook.


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## SlvrDragon50 (Mar 25, 2017)

I think a lot of the people are also watching Knapton absolutely rip and want to emulate his style of fluid carving and buttering with his duck stance. I don't think there's any right way to set up stance though.


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## speedjason (May 2, 2013)

Learning how to ride switch is a very nice skill especially when sometimes, you are just tired riding normal stance.
I sometimes get sore in my front leg and just pop a quick 180, bam, no more sore leg.


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## Rip154 (Sep 23, 2017)

Find the angles you want, directional stance on directional board and duck stance on a twin park board. Same angles, just different body position. Riding a directional board backwards is fakie, not switch. Some tricks can still be called switch, but whatever.


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## buller_scott (Jun 10, 2018)

freshy said:


> I just want to point out there is no "right" way...... I have never felt comfortable having my rear foot point forward in surfing or longboarding either.


I absolutely appreciate that - and i appreciate that stance is a very individual thing. Take Yuki Kadono's +6 / -9, for example. 

My post was more of a tip-of-the-hat to the idea that duck is so heavily ingrained as the go-to stance in the snowboarding community, that many people won't even TRY forward/forward, on their directional setups, to see if it works well for them. 

Case in point - me. For more than 20 years, I've ridden duck, even "freeriding" on boards like my Rome PT 160. I never felt that there was anything wrong with what I was doing, and I always felt comfortable, tweaking from board to board, still always duck. 

I get to Japan, and cannot help but notice:
a] Goddammit there are a fair amount of people who are into carving at all speeds
b] Holy crap they carve well - better than anything/anyone I've seen here in Australia [their lines are just as clean and deep as experienced carving skiers]
c] The theme that I started to notice was that ALL the best carvers had forward angles on their rear binding
d] That's very foreign to me... seems weird... but EST is so easy to change angles, tha hell - why not give it a go?
e] Yes, my duck stance for most things [+7.5 front / -2.5 rear, around 60cm] is still comfortable, but my "new" forward-forward stance is also comfortable, and shits all over my normal stance for carving in one direction. 

Not that I'm too hell bent / stressed about it [I'm very un-stressed these days, after a month in Hokkaido], but perhaps my argument would be that BECAUSE duck is such a go-to norm, lots of snowboarders might now be close-minded to the possibility of improving their carving/riding by going either flat, or forward on their rear foot - the mere idea is simply not in their periphery, nor something they'd even consider. 

My intent for the OP was to point out that despite what famous Youtubers say, +15 / -15 is a BIG duck stance, and that he should mix it up to see if it works. The OP's woes with having a straight-ish front leg whilst freeriding with a BIG duck stance, mimics what I see when I watch my cousin ride [who was with me in Japan for a week and a half, who doesn't ride switch at all, and who rides off the back foot - it's not graceful AT ALL]. I've suggested that he tries forward-forward, but "the Youtubers say you're meant to have a duck stance, so I'm not even gonna bother trying it. If it was any good, the Youtubers would be all over it by now"

If anything, that is testament to how well big duck stances have been propagated and marketed throughout the snowboard community - even amongst people who it might not serve well at all.


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## bazman (Jan 15, 2017)

The big snowboard YouTubers ride duck because they ride switch. If you don't ride switch then duck might not be best. Agree people should try things out and see what works for them


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## freshy (Nov 18, 2009)

buller_scott said:


> I absolutely appreciate that - and i appreciate that stance is a very individual thing. Take Yuki Kadono's +6 / -9, for example.
> 
> My post was more of a tip-of-the-hat to the idea that duck is so heavily ingrained as the go-to stance in the snowboarding community, that many people won't even TRY forward/forward, on their directional setups, to see if it works well for them.
> 
> ...


Chill man. If duck were not the most common stance it would not be recommended. +/+ is better for carving especially if your comfortable in that position. You found your stance, be happy. I spent a good 4 years at least forcing my feet into uncomfortable positions till the 90's when duck became a thing.


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## Motogp990 (Mar 10, 2013)

Levike93 said:


> Any thoughts that may help would be great!
> 
> Levi


My thoughts would be to not read any replies to your thread and go ride.

Ride 100+ days in a season on a mountain (not a hill), with riders that are better than you. 

Your riding will improve 10x


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## Snowdaddy (Feb 2, 2018)

Motogp990 said:


> My thoughts would be to not read any replies to your thread and go ride.
> 
> Ride 100+ days in a season on a mountain (not a hill), with riders that are better than you.
> 
> Your riding will improve 10x


I bet you are reading this reply instead of being on the mountain!


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## TooNice (Feb 7, 2014)

buller_scott said:


> I absolutely appreciate that - and i appreciate that stance is a very individual thing. Take Yuki Kadono's +6 / -9, for example.
> 
> My post was more of a tip-of-the-hat to the idea that duck is so heavily ingrained as the go-to stance in the snowboarding community, that many people won't even TRY forward/forward, on their directional setups, to see if it works well for them.
> 
> ...


Interesting to read about Yuki Kadono's stance. I don't normally look at what athletes use because I think it is very much a personal thing, but recently I saw that Murase Kokomo use a similarly unusual 9/-12.

There are two things I would note:

1. I think that what is comfortable can sometime change. I used to ride very duck. 18/-18. And even then, I sometime felt that my feet still wanted to push out wider.. but I was too afraid of going wider because I've never heard anyone else go that wide (I might have tried 21/-18 briefly but went back not because it was uncomfortable, but because I was a bit worried). This season though, at some point I felt that my feet, especially back foot, didn't want to spread that wide). Not sure if it was because I was doing a lot more freeriding compared to park (two months in Hokkaido), but I re-adjusted to 15/-12, and found it much more comfortable. 

2. With 15/-12 feeling so right, I thought, perhaps like you did that maybe a forward or flat stance might be the way to go, at least when freeriding on a directional board. So I tried 0 on my back foot. Knees did not like that. Now I am not sure if the stance really pose any dangers to my knees, but it did feel very uncomfortable, and I was genuinely concerned.

Now I suspect that it isn't a case that I am anatomically unable to ride a neutral or forward stance on my backfoot, but that amount of change is far too great in one go. Sometime I have trouble telling if changing the angle by 3 degrees make things better or worse.. but changing the angle by 12-18 degrees in one go may, at least for some people, feel very uncomfortable. Not very different, but actually uncomfortable. 

Frankly speaking, I am a bit curious as to how much a +/+ stance might help my regular carving.. but with +/0 feeling so awkward, I doubt that +/+ is going to feel that much better.

While it certainly wouldn't hurt the OP to try, I am not sure if making a sudden major change in angle is the likely solution.


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## poser (Mar 7, 2018)

Somewhere along the way, the point was lost amidst all of the guys jerking each other off with their non duck stances. 

OP, can you reasonably perform a parallel air squat standing on the floor without any noticeable discomfort?


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## Phedder (Sep 13, 2014)

The only thing keeping me from a +/+ stance is jumps and drops, riding switch always feels a little odd, positive or duck stance be damned no one is as comfortable switch as they are regular, and hardly anyone is charging freeride terrain switch. I ride switch a lot but that's on groomers, in the park, and occasionally off a natural drop or sidehit. What I didn't like when trying +/+ was that my stability for ollies and landing jumps was non-existent, just felt wrong, couldn't bend in the ways I needed to. I'm sure over time I'd learn and adjust which I may dedicate a few days to this spring, but it makes sense that a duck stance let's you squat and absorb better than a positive stance, even having the back foot barely ducked out. 

I agree you can't beat +/+ for aggressive heelside carves, but I'd rather try to compensate as a rider for those than limit my jumping and landing ability.


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## Paxford (Jan 7, 2019)

Everyone has a starting point based on their anatomy and physiology. If you walk like a duck already then positive angles on the back foot aren’t going to feel as natural. Guess what will feel natural? Duck. The point is don’t copy someone’s angles, but do consider them for the style of riding they perform and adjust them to your own anatomy and physiology. I ride 24/-9 but my feet are naturally a little bit ducky, so -9 on the backfoot feels to me like a positive angle probably feels for someone else with straight feet. Zero on the backfoot feels not so good to me and actually hinders my carving. Any more negative than 9 degrees and I start feeling like a park rat, compromising 99% of my riding for that 1% of the time jumping, doing park stuff, etc.

To the OP, I arrived at 24/-9 because these are the best angles for me to bend my knees and get in very low surfing positions to maintain flow, increase response, drive more power in to turns, slash on a dime, etc.


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## poser (Mar 7, 2018)

I agree with the point that Phedder makes in the above post. Duck stance allows both knees to track outwards which, from an anatomical standpoint, allows one to transfer and absorb the most amount of energy through the hips and legs from top to bottom. With the backfoot turned in, the knee will inherently track inwards, which is the weakest and most compromised knee position. It does make certain skill specific aspects of snowboarding such as hard carving more ideal and comfortable, but when you absorb a huge landing, you ideally want the knee tracking outwards and energy absorption transferring through the hips. 

With that in mind, there is a compromise to every foot angle. What you are willing to compromise depends highly on what you wish to achieve with your riding. If the issue is a matter if squatting, I want to first know whether or not it is a physical limitation of the rider instead of jumping to highly specialized solutions, so let’s start with the most natural position for performing the squat: neutral spine, knees tracking out, feet slightly wider than shoulder width, feet symmetrically tracking outwards (aka duck stance). If you can’t perform this movement symmetrically, then no amount of asymmetrical adjustments will properly compensate for this fundamental human movement pattern barring leg length discrepancy or some other oddball anthropomorphic feature.


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## Paxford (Jan 7, 2019)

Agreed, thanks for breaking it down Poser. I just did your Pepsi challenge and confirmed zero and positive angles on the back foot hinder squatting for me. Increasing positive angles on my front foot has little to no impact squatting until the angles get crazy high and even then I can still get low, it just feels weird. So for me it comes down to balancing the angle on that front foot between having enough leverage and comfort while reducing the potential for drag. 24 degrees is my magic. I snow surf mostly in one direction with only a few minor kickers here and there so switch/jumping isn’t the focus like riding with flow, precision and power is. Just sharing so the OP and y’all can compare and contrast based on your preferred style. And if y’all have something new/better for snow surf style I’d love to hear about it too!


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## Snowdaddy (Feb 2, 2018)

Just out of curiosity: When do you consider your stance duck? Does the stance need to be symmetrical front and back or just slightly negative on the back?

+15/-15

+15/-10

+29/-1

+30/0

+31/+1


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## poser (Mar 7, 2018)

Snowdaddy said:


> Just out of curiosity: When do you consider your stance duck? Does the stance need to be symmetrical front and back or just slightly negative on the back?
> 
> 
> 
> ...




That’s a good question with no official answer. I suppose that if the toes are turned outwards at all then it would qualify as “duck stance”


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## bazman (Jan 15, 2017)

Duck is positive front and negative back. So +29 -1 qualifies as duck, but is a very shallow duck that won't be able to swim in deep water and needs more bread than normal to survive


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## Paxford (Jan 7, 2019)

Before this thread I thought duck was symmetrical and I still do. Within this thread I think duck is positive front, negative rear but not necessarily symmetrical. It's a good way talk about it though since the OP's original question is how to get low, and perfect symmetry isn't required to do that (at least not for me).


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## Phedder (Sep 13, 2014)

Snowdaddy said:


> Just out of curiosity: When do you consider your stance duck? Does the stance need to be symmetrical front and back or just slightly negative on the back?
> 
> +15/-15
> 
> ...


In my mind if your back foot is at a negative angle, your stance is duck. Though that +29/-1 practically doesn't count hah. I've got boards set from +25/-5 (channel) to +15/-15, I'd call all of those duck stances, higher front angle being a directional duck stance and if they're the same then a symmetrical duck stance.


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## chomps1211 (Mar 30, 2011)

Thought I'd post _this_ IG link to illustrate what I meant about "sweeping turns on wide open terrain" allowing for a more upright riding position. 

https://instagram.com/p/BvwyDkhnKTf/

...btw, as Im sure most of you are aware, Jones's IG channel has _excellent_ snow porn!  >


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## buller_scott (Jun 10, 2018)

TooNice said:


> Interesting to read about Yuki Kadono's stance. I don't normally look at what athletes use because I think it is very much a personal thing, but recently I saw that Murase Kokomo use a similarly unusual 9/-12.
> 
> Now I suspect that it isn't a case that I am anatomically unable to ride a neutral or forward stance on my backfoot, but that amount of change is far too great in one go. Sometime I have trouble telling if changing the angle by 3 degrees make things better or worse.. but changing the angle by 12-18 degrees in one go may, at least for some people, feel very uncomfortable. Not very different, but actually uncomfortable.
> 
> ...


Interesting regarding the funky angles. I think I'm going to try something like that, next time I mount up my play/park board [what the hell - i tried it with +/+ and liked it, it's worth burning a couple of hours, testing]. 

And I appreciate that - a big change especially in the back angle, might feel TOO foreign to the OP. Perhaps increments of 6 degrees forward, on the back foot, one bit at a time, to see if that remedies the straight front leg?



poser said:


> I agree with the point that Phedder makes in the above post. Duck stance allows both knees to track outwards which, from an anatomical standpoint, allows one to transfer and absorb the most amount of energy through the hips and legs from top to bottom. With the backfoot turned in, the knee will inherently track inwards, which is the weakest and most compromised knee position. It does make certain skill specific aspects of snowboarding such as hard carving more ideal and comfortable, but when you absorb a huge landing, you ideally want the knee tracking outwards and energy absorption transferring through the hips.
> 
> With that in mind, there is a compromise to every foot angle. What you are willing to compromise depends highly on what you wish to achieve with your riding. If the issue is a matter if squatting, I want to first know whether or not it is a physical limitation of the rider instead of jumping to highly specialized solutions, so let’s start with the most natural position for performing the squat: neutral spine, knees tracking out, feet slightly wider than shoulder width, feet symmetrically tracking outwards (aka duck stance). If you can’t perform this movement symmetrically, then no amount of asymmetrical adjustments will properly compensate for this fundamental human movement pattern barring leg length discrepancy or some other oddball anthropomorphic feature.


I dig the notion of what you've written above, and I squat during pre-season training, in this manner. HOWEVER, how does this play with the mechanics of how you actually _take_ a landing? There are many different "stance finder" methods out there - I've taken to the "jump off a tall chair and see how you land" method, and note that my front has a decent positive angle [that often needs to be taken back when i actually get ON a board], and my back foot is pretty much flat [-5 degrees or there abouts], 3 out of 5 "tests" showed a measured foot width of almost bang-on 64cm. 

I wasn't jerking anyone off with the +/+ thing, merely offering a suggestion that would take one hour to test. Is the point of your post, to suggest to the OP that he should stick with a big duck stance, and find another work around, in his effort to reduce his back-seat driving? Not being facetious, just asking genuinely


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## poser (Mar 7, 2018)

buller_scott said:


> Interesting regarding the funky angles. I think I'm going to try something like that, next time I mount up my play/park board [what the hell - i tried it with +/+ and liked it, it's worth burning a couple of hours, testing].
> 
> 
> 
> ...




My point was that the OP should start by confirming that he can indeed squat/bend the knees in a symmetrical position that allows him to work with the most amount of leverage and then make adjustments from there instead of diving in with a more complicated solution.


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## buller_scott (Jun 10, 2018)

poser said:


> My point was that the OP should start by confirming that he can indeed squat/bend the knees in a symmetrical position that allows him to work with the most amount of leverage and then make adjustments from there instead of diving in with a more complicated solution.


Fair enough. And if the OP can squat like that, yet he still rides off the back foot, how would you tackle stance adjustment / what other solutions would you suggest?

Not singling you out, just genuinely interested as I have my own buddies who would benefit from this advice [back-seat riders].


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## Paxford (Jan 7, 2019)

I could be totally off base and would love to hear Poser's take on this, I believe he is a real instructor, I just play one on the internet.

I like comparisons to accompany the description of arm goes here, leg goes there, butt out like a kook, etc. Like when somebody said imagine you are in a cereal box. 

So for this I'd say imagine a baseball player intentionally hitting a fly ball. Don't do that, that's backfoot! Instead intentionally hit a ground ball. Drive that ball into the ground. Swing an imaginary bat and you'll notice your weight bias towards the front and your front foot will turn and end up at a fairly high positive angle. And both your hands will end up in line with your front foot at about 75% through your swing. This is the basic stance/weighting/front foot angle to get out of the backseat. Refine from there. Be dynamic.

(ps don't start flailing around with an imaginary bat on the mountain, that could end badly)


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## poser (Mar 7, 2018)

buller_scott said:


> Fair enough. And if the OP can squat like that, yet he still rides off the back foot, how would you tackle stance adjustment / what other solutions would you suggest?
> 
> 
> 
> Not singling you out, just genuinely interested as I have my own buddies who would benefit from this advice [back-seat riders].




Based upon the description, if you were trying to encourage someone to get off the backfoot and (presumably) ride more balanced over both feet? That is what you mean, right? I think that may be the point where you get into more complicated and individualized solutions on a case by case basis.


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## poser (Mar 7, 2018)

Paxford said:


> I could be totally off base and would love to hear Poser's take on this, I believe he is a real instructor, I just play one on the internet.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I had to read it twice, but that sounds like a reasonable analogy.


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## Scalpelman (Dec 5, 2017)

poser said:


> I had to read it twice, but that sounds like a reasonable analogy.




Except I ride goofy and bat right handed. I’m all effed up.


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## buller_scott (Jun 10, 2018)

poser said:


> Based upon the description, if you were trying to encourage someone to get off the backfoot and (presumably) ride more balanced over both feet? That is what you mean, right? *I think that may be the point where you get into more complicated and individualized solutions on a case by case basis.*




Yep, you're bang on. 

As for what I've bolded - me and my mates [varying abilities, my experienced being the longest-standing] were discussing getting "refresher" lessons back in Aus this season [although not at Buller - their instructors are always hungover and they don't give a fuck about anything other than the next round of binge-drinking].

Seems like lessons have to be on the cards, when I read what you wrote. Thanks!


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## Snowdaddy (Feb 2, 2018)

Phedder said:


> In my mind if your back foot is at a negative angle, your stance is duck. Though that +29/-1 practically doesn't count hah. I've got boards set from +25/-5 (channel) to +15/-15, I'd call all of those duck stances, higher front angle being a directional duck stance and if they're the same then a symmetrical duck stance.


"directional duck" .... 

I find having a negative stance on my back foot making it easier to shift my weight back in the turns, and I have more control over the sidecut, but having positive angles feels more natural and fun. Riding positive is more like riding the mountain and "directional duck" is more like riding the board.

And riding powder with duck stance is lame 

Edit: My positive stance is 27/6 and my directional duck is 21/-6


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## Paxford (Jan 7, 2019)

Scalpelman said:


> Except I ride goofy and bat right handed. I’m all effed up.


That is odd, are you really good at riding or batting switch? What hand do you write with? What leg do you kick a ball with?


I'm a left-hander who rides and bats regular. Can't ride switch for shit. My wife is the opposite, right-hander who rides goofy but she can also switch hit and ride switch without much effort.


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## Scalpelman (Dec 5, 2017)

Paxford said:


> That is odd, are you really good at riding or batting switch? What hand do you write with? What leg do you kick a ball with?
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I’m a true left handed/footed but taught myself to use right hand for tools that society makes for right handed people. I ride goofy and can’t ride switch for shit. Bat righty and golf same (but gave up the latter for fishing). Tried batting the other way but it’s all effed up.


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## speedjason (May 2, 2013)

Scalpelman said:


> Except I ride goofy and bat right handed. I’m all effed up.


I am the same way. I think it's more personal opinion. I am right handed and goofy.
Now I have been riding switch, I can ride both ways no problem. However, my right leg still has more control when it comes to carve initiation vs the left leg forward.


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## Dman2 (Jul 11, 2020)

Scalpelman said:


> I ride one direction 90% of the time. But the reason is because I SUCK riding switch. I wish someone told me to learn switch when I was first starting. Now it involves a few painful days on the mountain to learn, which I keep avoiding.


Honestly I was the same, but I switched to duck stance and decided to go switch when gf was learning to ski, it's so much fun, a real challenge and it has improved my snowboarding a lot regular as well.

I'm in no way an expert but I just think about two things, saw a video which told me to crush a bug with your front foot on toe turns and open up your knee on heel.

Starting off doing a couple of J turns and then connecting. I mean, it feels weird but I highly recommend i, especially if you're riding with some people new to the sport.


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