# Choose bindings by weight?



## PlanB (Nov 21, 2014)

Personally, I've found that riding style (aggressive vs mellow) has more influence over binding requirements than weight. I prefer a much stiffer binding than my riding buddy that has 6" and 30lbs on me.


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## speedjason (May 2, 2013)

Because not everybody wants same stiffness at given weight. Some heavier people likes softer bindings and some lighter people prefer stiffer bindings.
The stiffness of binding has no relation to weight same as stiffness of the board. It's personal choice.


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## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

speedjason said:


> Because not everybody wants same stiffness at given weight. Some heavier people likes softer bindings and some lighter people prefer stiffer bindings.
> The stiffness of binding has no relation to weight same as stiffness of the board. It's personal choice.


Not necessarily true. A board or binding either one will feel softer to someone who is heavier. Same is true for riding style like was mentioned earlier. A board or binding will tend to feel softer to someone who is a more aggressive rider. In both circumstances, it's due to the heavier and/or more aggressive riding applying more force to the board/binding.


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## speedjason (May 2, 2013)

linvillegorge said:


> Not necessarily true. A board or binding either one will feel softer to someone who is heavier. Same is true for riding style like was mentioned earlier. A board or binding will tend to feel softer to someone who is a more aggressive rider. In both circumstances, it's due to the heavier and/or more aggressive riding applying more force to the board/binding.


I would imagine stiffness of the bindings would be insignificant in comparison to the stiffness of the board due to weight difference.


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## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

speedjason said:


> I would imagine stiffness of the bindings would be insignificant in comparison to the stiffness of the board due to weight difference.


Same. When you lay into your board on edge you're also laying into your bindings. Your weight has a big impact on both.


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## Mystery2many (Aug 14, 2013)

I don't think weight has a significant effect on the bindings. Bindings transfer the energy you apply while riding into the board. The binding is an attachment that uses leverage. I think the most important factors that should be used to pick bindings is riding style and personal preference.


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## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

Increase weight, increase leverage.

I'm about 20 pounds heavier right now than I was three years ago. Bindings and boards both definitely feel noticeably softer.


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## Mystery2many (Aug 14, 2013)

Elaborate on how the bindings feel softer. Are you sure its just not the board being a bit more buttery due to your weight?


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## Mystery2many (Aug 14, 2013)

Also the increased weight is increased leverage but it is being transfered into your board.


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## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

Mystery2many said:


> Elaborate on how the bindings feel softer. Are you sure its just not the board being a bit more buttery due to your weight?


The biggest difference is torsionally. Not a big difference front to back. Definitely more torsional give now.


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## Mystery2many (Aug 14, 2013)

linvillegorge said:


> The biggest difference is torsionally. Not a big difference front to back. Definitely more torsional give now.


Shadow fit or solid baseplate. I can see that being true for the shadow fit and reflex but not something like Rome binding.


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## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

Mystery2many said:


> Shadow fit or solid baseplate. I can see that being true for the shadow fit and reflex but not something like Rome binding.


Both.

You don't realize how much of an effect weight has on perceived stiffness until you've ridden the same gear at significantly different weights.


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## Mystery2many (Aug 14, 2013)

I have, I was 200+ last season and now I'm 180. Was active as hell this summer. :hairy:


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## Mystery2many (Aug 14, 2013)

My Salomon District and Holograms, Union Contact Pros and Genesis still feel the same.


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## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

And you don't notice any difference?


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## Mystery2many (Aug 14, 2013)

Honestly no. I probably gained muscle as well so that probably has something to do with it. I can say that my 154 Happy Place feels a little more stable but not by much.


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## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

Another example of YMMV/different strokes for different folks. :hairy:


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## SnowDogWax (Nov 8, 2013)

My weight the past two seasons +- 30 lbs. When my weight was higher I preferred a stiffer board and bindings. At my lowest weight those same boards/bindings just did not respond the same. There is a definite difference.









:happy:


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## Mystery2many (Aug 14, 2013)

So you're saying 30 extra pounds make a stiff binding a medium binding? :eyetwitch2:


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## SnowDogWax (Nov 8, 2013)

Enough extra mass is important for choosing the size of a snowboard. 
Enough extra mass will have an effect on perceived stiffness of any binding.

Same binding:
110 lb same bindings > perceived stiffness 
280 lb same bindings < perceived stiffness


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## Mystery2many (Aug 14, 2013)

I view it like this. Imagine you're using a pry bar to remove a nail. The more weight you add is more relative to the nail than the pry bar. Yes there is added stress to the pry bar but by design it is built for the stress and transfers it to the nail. Same with a binding, it is transferring the added weight to the board's flex and edge. Yes the binding is enduring more stress but that's not what we are discussing here. I don't think a stiff highback turns soft because of extra weight, the straps might stretch more but on a flex scale I still think it being soft, medium or stiff is still relative to its purpose.

A soft, medium or stiff binding will still feel either soft, medium or stiff to a heavy person.


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## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

Your pry bar example is a poor one. Ever wonder why a pry bar has to be made out of heavy thick steel even though it's only a puny human cranking on it? It's because the increased mechanical force of the lever is transfered to the lever arm - in this case a pry bar - as well. The force isn't amplified by magic, it's mechanical.


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## Mizu Kuma (Apr 13, 2014)

I see where ya comin from, M2M!!!!!

You're sayin that too a heavy set guy, a Stiff/Soft Binding, is always gonna be a Stiff/Soft Binding, cause that's what they know them as!!!!! 

The other guys though, are sayin that a Soft Binding to a 50kg guy is not gonna have the same performance characteristics as it will to a 130kg guy!!!!! (Same size binding, same brand, same model)


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## Mystery2many (Aug 14, 2013)

linvillegorge said:


> Your pry bar example is a poor one. Ever wonder why a pry bar has to be made out of heavy thick steel even though it's only a puny human cranking on it? It's because the increased mechanical force of the lever is transfered to the lever arm - in this case a pry bar - as well. The force isn't amplified by magic, it's mechanical.


You completely missed the point. 



Mizu Kuma said:


> I see where ya comin from, M2M!!!!!
> 
> You're sayin that too a heavy set guy, a Stiff/Soft Binding, is always gonna be a Stiff/Soft Binding, cause that's what they know them as!!!!!
> 
> The other guys though, are sayin that a Soft Binding to a 50kg guy is not gonna have the same performance characteristics as it will to a 130kg guy!!!!! (Same size binding, same brand, same model)


Yes. A bigger person will flex a binding harder than a little person but it is still relative to the flex scale to that individual.


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## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

Please elaborate on your lever example if I missed the point. My point was that the amplification of force doesn't occur in a vacuum.


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## wrathfuldeity (Oct 5, 2007)

no mechanical or math genius here... but its a ratio thang, a relative threshold and window of responsiveness. And if rider's weight is the variable factor while the board, binding, boot and snow variable remains constant...weight of the rider will effect the ratio...and thus the feel and response of the set up will be different.

that being said...imho a stiff binding has the ability for a wider spectrum of response...but overdoing the input can have touchier and more drastic results...thus stiffer bindings require more precise skills...presuming that you have the leverage to input the minimal threshold...if not then you are going to be taken for a ride. however if you have the required skills then you can expand the window or spectrum of response....up to and somewhat beyond the inherent designed parameters.


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## SGboarder (Jun 24, 2012)

Mystery2many said:


> linvillegorge said:
> 
> 
> > Your pry bar example is a poor one. Ever wonder why a pry bar has to be made out of heavy thick steel even though it's only a puny human cranking on it? It's because the increased mechanical force of the lever is transfered to the lever arm - in this case a pry bar - as well. The force isn't amplified by magic, it's mechanical.
> ...


You might have a point if bindings were made out of thick solid steel...


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## wrathfuldeity (Oct 5, 2007)

SGboarder said:


> You might have a point if bindings were made out of thick solid steel...


I have binders made out of solid aluminum...and they are stiff and responsive as hell...infact put on some eva foam on the solid baseplate to soften or slack the response


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## Mystery2many (Aug 14, 2013)

How about riding without a highback? Does weight play a huge roll? Have you ever put a cheater bar on the end of a wrench to give it more torque, leverage or strength to loosen a bolt or nut? The highback is an extending lever to give more response to your heel edge which its soul purpose is to tranfer the energy. Again I'm not saying that the binding doesn't bend or stress more from a heavier person but its flex rating is still relative to the flex scale and how it is supposed to ride in comparison to the other bindings of different flex.

If a rider is 250lbs and enjoys riding all mountian freestyle and enjoys a medium flex binding, I don't think riding a stiff binding would be the equvelant to a medium binding. I think he would still enjoy a medium binding and get plenty of heel and toe response but probably get a little more lateral flex than a lighter person. 

"It would seem that a heavier rider would benefit from stiffer bindings while a lighter rider could use a more flexible binding for the same purpose."


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## wrathfuldeity (Oct 5, 2007)

^m2m no disagreement. But highbacks can also enhance toe edge response if a power wrap or 3 strap is used....due to the higher support for the leverage.


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## Mystery2many (Aug 14, 2013)

wrathfuldeity said:


> ^m2m no disagreement. But highbacks can also enhance toe edge response if a power wrap or 3 strap is used....due to the higher support for the leverage.


I agree. Leverage is leverage no matter which direction if its structurally supported.


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## SGboarder (Jun 24, 2012)

wrathfuldeity said:


> I have binders made out of solid aluminum...and they are stiff and responsive as hell...infact put on some eva foam on the solid baseplate to soften or slack the response


Thank you, that supports linvillegorge's and my point on this.


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## Lvpanerai (Nov 10, 2015)

This has turned into an interesting discussion.

My thoughts are that given a medium flex binding, for example, it would provide more support and would flex less under the weight of a 140 lb person as opposed to a 200 lb person if both were using the same amount of force.

I have been reading numerpus reviews on products with such conflicting info and opinions and this variable does seem to make a difference when it comes to how certain products are reviewed. This applies to snowboard flex and binding flex or responsiveness.


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## Mizu Kuma (Apr 13, 2014)

Lvpanerai said:


> This has turned into an interesting discussion.
> 
> *My thoughts are that given a medium flex binding, for example, it would provide more support and would flex less under the weight of a 140 lb person as opposed to a 200 lb person if both were using the same amount of force.*
> 
> I have been reading numerpus reviews on products with such conflicting info and opinions and this variable does seem to make a difference when it comes to how certain products are reviewed. This applies to snowboard flex and binding flex or responsiveness.


If they used the same amount of force, then the binding would flex the same!!!!!

It just takes the heavier dude less effort to do so!!!!!

eg If the heavier guy sat on you, he would be using no more energy to do it than if the thin guy sat on you!!!!! But he would be applyin more force due to his weight and the effects of gravity!!!!! 

And you will "flex" more than havin the thin guy on top!!!!! :hairy:


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## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

To a heavier person, any binding is going to feel a bit softer than it does to a lighter person. I cant believe why that's even debatable..... whether they call it mid flex or soft flex doesnt matter. The heavier guy will flex the same binding with less input.

When people are talking about +\- 10 lbs its no big deal..... But a 250 lbs dude will flex the hell out of a mid binding while a 110 lbs chick will have to throw everything at it to get it to give.


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## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

Mizu Kuma said:


> If they used the same amount of force, then the binding would flex the same!!!!!
> 
> It just takes the heavier dude less effort to do so!!!!!
> 
> ...


Yeah, more or less. The concept you're looking for is momentum.... mass x velocity. Its the reason why a heavy truck travelling at 10 km/hr wrecks the hell out of anything.... while a lil car gets pummeled in a crash. They both transfer the same net ammount of energy..... but because the mass of the two objects is different, the resulting acceleration/velociry is different...... When you get slapped, you get slapped by a mass x velocity. Also, thats why in boxing everything is related to weigh. A punch from a 200 lbs guy does far more damage than a punch from a 125 lbs.

That was enough geekyness for tonight. See ya.


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## Mizu Kuma (Apr 13, 2014)

F1EA said:


> velociry


Is that the noise ya make when in a situation like this?????


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## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

Mizu Kuma said:


> Is that the noise ya make when in a situation like this?????


Nah in that situation it would be more like brrrrrrrrrrpp :hairy:


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## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

F1EA said:


> To a heavier person, any binding is going to feel a bit softer than it does to a lighter person. I cant believe why that's even debatable..... whether they call it mid flex or soft flex doesnt matter. The heavier guy will flex the same binding with less input.


This. I was kinda dumbfounded there was any debate.


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## Mizu Kuma (Apr 13, 2014)

F1EA said:


> Nah in that situation it would be more like brrrrrrrrrrpp :hairy:


I've read somewhere that'll attract more of the suckers!!!!!


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## Mystery2many (Aug 14, 2013)

Ok. I better see you mechanical engineers suggesting Burton Diodes to all heavy people looking for a medium all mountian binding. 

:rofl2:


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## Mizu Kuma (Apr 13, 2014)

Phew, lucky I'm not a Mechanical Engineer!!!!!


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## Mystery2many (Aug 14, 2013)

Mizu Kuma said:


> Phew, lucky I'm not a Mechanical Engineer!!!!!


Lol, Its never too late. :hairy:


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## Mizu Kuma (Apr 13, 2014)

Mystery2many said:


> Lol, Its never too late. :hairy:


But I'd have to give up bein an Internet Forum Engineer in order to do it!!!!! :eyetwitch2:


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## ItchEtrigR (Jan 1, 2012)

You want real stiff response go hardboots and plates, polycarbonate bindings are made to flex by design.

If you really need some response from the connection of your board and bindings get yourself a steel or hard aluminum disc plate made the stiffest highback compatible to your binding and your set.
You really don't want too stiff what you want is less slop.


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## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

Mystery2many said:


> Ok. I better see you mechanical engineers suggesting Burton Diodes to all heavy people looking for a medium all mountian binding.
> 
> :rofl2:


Civil. Mechs are geeks 

And yeah... a 250 lbs guy can certainly use Diodes for medium-ish flex all mtn. freestyle stuff. But at some point, the board/boots will give first.

The OP is 145 lbs. At his weight, he can probably ride any binding as all mtn, even thosenon the soft side of med flex like Contact Pro, Flux DS etc and it'll be ok.


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## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

F1EA said:


> To a heavier person, any binding is going to feel a bit softer than it does to a lighter person. I cant believe why that's even debatable..... whether they call it mid flex or soft flex doesnt matter. The heavier guy will flex the same binding with less input.
> 
> When people are talking about +\- 10 lbs its no big deal..... But a 250 lbs dude will flex the hell out of a mid binding while a 110 lbs chick will have to throw everything at it to get it to give.


Yeah, the "debate" had me confused too. The pry bar example put me at full on 

I understand what he was saying that stiff still equal stiff, medium still medium, etc. but that's only because that's what's available on the market and the items on the market are built around the "average" person. I thought that it was common knowledge that the perceived stiffness of boots/bindings/boards would vary for people of varying weight and style of riding.


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## Mystery2many (Aug 14, 2013)

F1EA said:


> And yeah... a 250 lbs guy can certainly use Diodes for medium-ish flex all mtn. freestyle stuff.


Ok, I better see you suggest the stiffest bindings for such purpose. lol




linvillegorge said:


> Yeah, the "debate" had me confused too. The pry bar example put me at full on
> 
> I understand what he was saying that stiff still equal stiff, medium still medium, etc. but that's only because that's what's available on the market and the items on the market are built around the "average" person. I thought that it was common knowledge that the perceived stiffness of boots/bindings/boards would vary for people of varying weight and style of riding.


Of course the bindings are gonna feel different to a rider at 140 compared to 250 but its still relative to the flex scale is what I was saying. And I damn sure don't think a Diode is gonna feel like a Cartel if the rider gains 100lbs. The bindings are structurally engineered to be stiffer than a medium binding. 

"It would seem that a heavier rider would benefit from stiffer bindings while a lighter rider could use a more flexible binding for the same purpose."

I don't think that statement is correct in relation to the actions involved in snowboarding. I think weight is more directly effecting the boots and board and the bindings will only marginaly vary. If that statement is true then when I was 205 I should have benefited from a stiff binding rather than my Holograms. I personally have tried from the stiffest to the softest and I know for a fact that my riding does NOT benefit from a stiff binding and I hate soft bindings. I even went from the Hologram to the District because of the highback. I did go to a stiffer boot though. When it comes to bindings I think its based off riding style and personal preference. I would never tell a big dude to buy a diode if he wants to jib and press and freestyle all over the mountain, I would suggest a Malavita and if he needs a little more response to add some forward lean.


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## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

Mystery2many said:


> Ok, I better see you suggest the stiffest bindings for such purpose. lol


Why?

250 lbs is not the heaviest person in the world. It's just relatively (much) heavier than a 145 lbs. Also, that 250 pounder may not need/like/want such stiffness. Also... super stiff ones (say like ODrives) will be universally stiff for common humans. It's not like a 250er will fold them either. But a 600 might. It'll snap though, cause carbon fibre is brittle. 

Mystery... you seem confused. You are also lol'ing far too much for a guy bringing in grade-school logic.

lol
(you see... that lol fits)

:hairy: 
(I'm just being an asshole on purpose)


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## Mystery2many (Aug 14, 2013)

F1EA said:


> Why?
> 
> 250 lbs is not the heaviest person in the world. It's just relatively (much) heavier than a 145 lbs. Also, that 250 pounder may not need/like/want such stiffness. Also... super stiff ones (say like ODrives) will be universally stiff for common humans. It's not like a 250er will fold them either. But a 600 might. It'll snap though, cause carbon fibre is brittle.
> 
> ...



I like to lol what can I say. Would it make me seem more mature if I were throwing out insults and trying to belittle others? Nah, I'll just stick to sharing my opinion, lol'ing and having a civil debate even if its only one sided.


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## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

Mystery2many said:


> I don't think that statement is correct in relation to the actions involved in snowboarding. I think weight is more directly effecting the boots and board and the bindings will only marginaly vary. If that statement is true then when I was 205 I should have benefited from a stiff binding rather than my Holograms. I personally have tried from the stiffest to the softest and I know for a fact that my riding does NOT benefit from a stiff binding and I hate soft bindings. I even went from the Hologram to the District because of the highback. I did go to a stiffer boot though. When it comes to bindings I think its based off riding style and personal preference. I would never tell a big dude to buy a diode if he wants to jib and press and freestyle all over the mountain, I would suggest a Malavita and if he needs a little more response to add some forward lean.


I think you're making the mistake of substituting personal experience and preference for fact. You didn't personally notice a huge difference but then again, your weight variance was still relatively minor. Weight definitely plays a big role in the amount of force that is ultimately applied to boots, bindings, and boards. I'd never tell a bigger guy to buy a Diode for freestyle riding either, but if a bigger guy was looking for an all-mountain binding, I'd probably suggest something on the stiffer side of all-mountain such as (we'll just stick with Union for continuity here) maybe an Atlas vs. say a Contact Pro. That Atlas will probably feel to a 200+ pound guy like the Contact Pro would to a 150 pound guy.


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## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

Mystery2many said:


> I like to lol what can I say. Would it make me seem more mature if I were throwing out insults and trying to belittle others? Nah, I'll just stick to sharing my opinion, lol'ing and having a civil debate even if its only one sided.


hahaha Yeah that's fine. I stop shaving for a couple of days when i need to appear more mature. 

But there really is no debate man. The OP guy 145 lbs can certainly go with med flexing bindings for all mtn. provided he has a board and boots that sort of match. If he wanted really stiff, he doesnt need to all the way to Odrives... normal mid stiffies will feel bombproof on him. O-Drives would ride him.

He could also ride female-specific bindings which are already scaled down for lighter riders.


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## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

Lvpanerai said:


> This has turned into an interesting discussion.
> 
> My thoughts are that given a medium flex binding, for example, it would provide more support and would flex less under the weight of a 140 lb person as opposed to a 200 lb person if both were using the same amount of force.
> 
> I have been reading numerpus reviews on products with such conflicting info and opinions and this variable does seem to make a difference when it comes to how certain products are reviewed. This applies to snowboard flex and binding flex or responsiveness.


If you read Angry Snowboarder's reviews, they always mention the size and weight of who's riding the product to form a reference. Thats because they know what they are doing 

When you're average build or thereabouts, it doesnt matter much. But if you're off scale, then yeah, you can look at different alternatives...


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## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

F1EA said:


> But there really is no debate man.


This. Personal preference/experience is opinion. Force applied is a quantifiable figure. All other things being equal, the heavier rider will apply more force. Period, end of debate.


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## Lvpanerai (Nov 10, 2015)

F1EA said:


> Civil. Mechs are geeks
> 
> And yeah... a 250 lbs guy can certainly use Diodes for medium-ish flex all mtn. freestyle stuff. But at some point, the board/boots will give first.
> 
> The OP is 145 lbs. At his weight, he can probably ride any binding as all mtn, even thosenon the soft side of med flex like Contact Pro, Flux DS etc and it'll be ok.


Thanks for this response without making this more complicated than it needs to be.


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## Lvpanerai (Nov 10, 2015)

linvillegorge said:


> This. Personal preference/experience is opinion. Force applied is a quantifiable figure. All other things being equal, the heavier rider will apply more force. Period, end of debate.


Word. I agree, this has gotten a little out of hand.


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## Mystery2many (Aug 14, 2013)

You internet genesis win. I guess I'm just an uneducated fool. "lol" Can't wait to hear how excited you're gonna make some person at 250lbs by advising them that a Union Atlas is gonna feel like a Contact Pro. I needed a good laugh. 

We might wanna talk to Wiredsport and see if we can get him to get binding companies to add a industry standard weight chart to their bindings so we can determine if a heavy person is gonna make a stiff binding a mushy medium. 

F1EA lets not forget to also advise everyone that they need a bigger board. Because bigger is always better. 

While we are at it. Everyone needs canting, its a must!

Yayyy interneting.


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## Argo (Feb 25, 2010)

I'm 290 when I'm feeling light and a stiff rated bindings feel medium to me. Stiff boots feel medium to me. Anything that is rated as soft is absolutely useless to me. I won't even strap into contact pro's. Union Atlas, factory and flow nx2 gt are go to bindings and have a medium flex in my eyes. I use flow talons and feel the same....


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## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

Wow, dude. Have a beer. You're way too worked up over this. It's gonna all be okay.


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## Mystery2many (Aug 14, 2013)

I agree with boots all the way. Well and Atlas and Factory are rated as medium bindings, especially the Atlas. So Argo you're saying the Atlas and Factory are less responsive heel to toe because you're heavy? I think your stiff boot plays more of a role personally. 


Oh Lin, I'm not worked up homie. I'm just enjoying myself at this point.


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## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

Mystery2many said:


> You internet genesis win. I guess I'm just an uneducated fool. "lol" Can't wait to hear how excited you're gonna make some person at 250lbs by advising them that a Union Atlas is gonna feel like a Contact Pro. I needed a good laugh.
> 
> We might wanna talk to Wiredsport and see if we can get him to get binding companies to add a industry standard weight chart to their bindings so we can determine if a heavy person is gonna make a stiff binding a mushy medium.
> 
> ...


Darned interwebz!! killing our youths and destroying our future



Argo said:


> I'm 290 when I'm feeling light and a stiff rated bindings feel medium to me. Stiff boots feel medium to me. Anything that is rated as soft is absolutely useless to me. I won't even strap into contact pro's. Union Atlas, factory and flow nx2 gt are go to bindings and have a medium flex in my eyes. I use flow talons and feel the same....


This.


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## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

Both the Atlas and the Factory are rated toward the stiffer end of mid-flexing. A lot of people consider them pretty stiff. Not sure what Union rates them at, but I'd put them around a 7ish on the LG scale. Contact Pros probably 4ish. :hairy:

Manufacturer scales get skewed IMO because it seems like no one wants to rate anything below about a 4 or so. Why have 1-3 if nothing ever fits into those categories? Then you have manufacturers rate gear close together that IMO is quite different. Burton rates the Genesis a 6 and the Malavitas a 5 when IMO the Malavita rides stiffer than the Genesis. I'd flip flop those two, but again, that's just my opinion.

It gets pretty damn confusing pretty quick.


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## scotty100 (Apr 3, 2012)

^Yup - I'm still waiting on someone answering my question on Burton bindings ratings for 2016. Each year they say the Cartel is stiffer than the vita or the vita is stiffer than the cartel etc etc etc but in the hand and on the board it can feel the opposite. Although stiffness rating is not just based on flexing the highback...


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## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

scotty100 said:


> ^Yup - I'm still waiting on someone answering my question on Burton bindings ratings for 2016. Each year they say the Cartel is stiffer than the vita or the vita is stiffer than the cartel etc etc etc but in the hand and on the board it can feel the opposite. Although stiffness rating is not just based on flexing the highback...


Well....
I've tried: Cartel, Genesis and Missions.

Cartel and Mission have the same baseplate. Mission highback is stiffer and taller (at least the 2014 Missions I had), footbed is a bit less cushy. Ankle pad is a bit more cushy... rating them... I would say Cartel 6 because the highback is the shortest and softest too. Mission 7, tall highback.

Haven't tried Malavita. But, they have same baseplate as Genesis, and a smaller ankle strap. The Genesis ankle strap is bigger than the new Malavita strap, but the Malavita highback is stiffer both torsionally and to the back....... this baseplate is more responsive than the Cartel and Mission baseplate for sure. So I'd say both are 6.5; but the Genesis gets more response from the ankle strap and baseplate, the Malavita from a stiffer highback and baseplate. I think both of these are more responsive than Cartel, but not stiffer than Mission. They MAY be more responsive than Missions because of the different ankle strap and baseplate... tough to know.

Then Diode around 8. The highback is stiff, but it's not that tall. And it has the big ankle straps and baseplate as Genesis (actually... stiffer baseplate in terms of composition).

So yeah.... Cartel 6, Malavita and Genesis 6.5, older Mission 7 (not sure how the new highback feels when riding, but hand-feeling it, it's not too different from the older one).

I still like the Genesis best. :hairy:


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## scotty100 (Apr 3, 2012)

Ha ha - thanks - good info. Although Burton rate the Cartel stiffer than the vita this year I see...


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## Mizu Kuma (Apr 13, 2014)

Not 100% sure on this, but doesn't the Vita's Flex Rating change with what option ya lookin at????? ie EST V's Reflex!!!!!


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## SGboarder (Jun 24, 2012)

scotty100 said:


> ^Yup - I'm still waiting on someone answering my question on Burton bindings ratings for 2016. Each year they say the Cartel is stiffer than the vita or the vita is stiffer than the cartel etc etc etc but in the hand and on the board it can feel the opposite. Although stiffness rating is not just based on flexing the highback...





scotty100 said:


> Ha ha - thanks - good info. Although Burton rate the Cartel stiffer than the vita this year I see...


I don't think Burton has stiffness rating at all. I've only seen the response/feel rating which is not the same - say, Vitas and Missions are clearly stiffer than the Cartel but feel less responsive. Same for Union, Contact Pro's are softer than Atlas etc but have much more response.


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## scotty100 (Apr 3, 2012)

SGboarder said:


> I don't think Burton has stiffness rating at all. I've only seen the response/feel rating which is not the same - say, Vitas and Missions are clearly stiffer than the Cartel but feel less responsive. Same for Union, Contact Pro's are softer than Atlas etc but have much more response.


You're right about that and as soon as I posted I realized "stiffness" is not necessarily the same as "responsive" on the burton scale. Although I think that might be confusing to some who do think responsive=stiffness. 

I also think having "softer" on their scale adds to this confusion...softer-stiffer seems more appropriate than "softer-responsive"...?


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## Mizu Kuma (Apr 13, 2014)




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## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

scotty100 said:


> You're right about that and as soon as I posted I realized "stiffness" is not necessarily the same as "responsive" on the burton scale. Although I think that might be confusing to some who do think responsive=stiffness.
> 
> I also think having "softer" on their scale adds to this confusion...softer-stiffer seems more appropriate than "softer-responsive"...?


Marketing lingo. I'm surprised they use " softer" instead of a term like "playful".


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## Mizu Kuma (Apr 13, 2014)

I reckon they should use terms like the stock market does with animals!!!!!

They could have a scale that ranges from Fluffly Kitten > Partially Rabid Poodle > Pissed Off Bobcat > Jacked Up Water Buffalo?????


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## Mystery2many (Aug 14, 2013)

I've noticed stiffness on some bindings involves shape more than actual stiffness. Salomon Hologram and District for example. I have both and the highjack on the District is not softer its just shaped different. It has a little less stock forward lean and it opens up mid way and doesn't cup the boot as tight for a little more tip to tail freedom. Add a dash of forward lean and you have the exact same heel side response but definitely a more noticeable tip to tail freedom even considering the shadow fit base plate. Definitely agree that stiffness doesn't always amount to more response. 

Now time to go have some free beers and ride, followed by a feast. :hairy:


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## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

Free beers... Mmmmmm


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## Mizu Kuma (Apr 13, 2014)

I could use a stiff drink!!!!!


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## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

scotty100 said:


> You're right about that and as soon as I posted I realized "stiffness" is not necessarily the same as "responsive" on the burton scale. Although I think that might be confusing to some who do think responsive=stiffness.
> 
> I also think having "softer" on their scale adds to this confusion...softer-stiffer seems more appropriate than "softer-responsive"...?


Last yr Burton made a Cartel Ltd. 
Had the Genesis/Diode ankle strap and a hammock on the Cartel highback. I really wanted that one but it sold out quickly.. dont think they made it this yr.

Burton does like a feel rating range. That's fine. No need to worry if it's 6 or 7. Its mostly all personal choice along their line for bindings.... whether you like softer highback, short highback, stiff highback, etc.

Union doesnt even bother much with rating... most are Med. Some they call stiff. Some should be soft, but they still call med. Again, preference.


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## ItchEtrigR (Jan 1, 2012)

F1EA said:


> Burton does like a feel rating range.


i seem to have got caught out there too, bought the Cartels last year because I wanted a stiffer binding than my Triads. On paper the Cartel looked the bit, 45% Nylon Glass an 8 in Burtons feel rating. I looked at the Malavita and Missions but they both had the lower end 30% Nylon Glass, Genesis with the 18% Nylon Glass blend, all 3 rated lower. Now I find on here all the 3 of those bindings are stiffer than the Cartel. 

To be honest the Cartel doesnt feel stiffer than my Triads which has the traditional Burton thick solid baseplate bottom before reflex, Its plenty responsive and lots of cush but I want something stiffer with a twisty highback like the Cartel.


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## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

ItchEtrigR said:


> i seem to have got caught out there too, bought the Cartels last year because I wanted a stiffer binding than my Triads. On paper the Cartel looked the bit, 45% Nylon Glass an 8 in Burtons feel rating. I looked at the Malavita and Missions but they both had the lower end 30% Nylon Glass, Genesis with the 18% Nylon Glass blend, all 3 rated lower. Now I find on here all the 3 of those bindings are stiffer than the Cartel.
> 
> To be honest the Cartel doesnt feel stiffer than my Triads which has the traditional Burton thick solid baseplate bottom before reflex, Its plenty responsive and lots of cush but I want something stiffer with a twisty highback like the Cartel.


Yeah, i think Cartel is the softest/least responsive. Not by much though.

because of the features, i'd say:
Cartel - Freestyle
Malavita / Mission - Freestyle all mtn
Genesis / Mission - All mtn

But basically.... they can all be interchanged based on what you prefer cause i dont think either of them are out of place for any condition.


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## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

Yep, I'd say Cartel/Vita/Genesis/Mission essentially boils down to personal preference. IMO though, Mission is the stiffest of the bunch and Genesis is the softest.


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## SGboarder (Jun 24, 2012)

linvillegorge said:


> Yep, I'd say Cartel/Vita/Genesis/Mission essentially boils down to personal preference. IMO though, Mission is the stiffest of the bunch and Genesis is the softest.


Agree. I have ridden all of them and I'd say 
- Stiffness: Mission > Vita > Cartel > Genesis
- Response: Cartel/Genesis > Vita/Mission (but really all are quite close)


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## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

linvillegorge said:


> Yep, I'd say Cartel/Vita/Genesis/Mission essentially boils down to personal preference. IMO though, Mission is the stiffest of the bunch and Genesis is the softest.





SGboarder said:


> Agree. I have ridden all of them and I'd say
> - Stiffness: Mission > Vita > Cartel > Genesis
> - Response: Cartel/Genesis > Vita/Mission (but really all are quite close)


Yeah i think that's more or less it.

Most important is... they are VERY close. Which is great cause you can just pick based on budget and specific preference......


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## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

Yeah, I don't really think there's anything that one of those can do that the others can't. Boils down to budget and personal preference. I think I may be the only person on the planet who has ridden the Genesis and wasn't overly fond of it, but YMMV. 

In terms of the newer "pushing the tech" bindings from the big guys, I prefer Katana > Genesis, but all in all I'm finding I just prefer good old traditional no nonsense bindings. More = less IMO when it comes to bindings. Keep it simple stupid.


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## scotty100 (Apr 3, 2012)

So how would you guys define "stiffness" vs "responsive" in a binding? Logic might say a "softer" binding would probably be less "responsive", much like a board.

Agree / disagree?


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## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

Generally speaking stiffness and responsiveness are tied to one another. But, there are some bindings that are quite a bit more responsive than their stiffness would lead you to believe. The Flux DS comes to mind here. Seems like you can make a softer binding more responsive with a big ankle strap. Never rode a stiff binding that I wouldn't classify as being responsive. The two kinda go hand in hand.


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## ItchEtrigR (Jan 1, 2012)

Black Friday Missions here I come.


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## SnowDogWax (Nov 8, 2013)

Bought a pair of Missions myself. Interested in how they compare to Cartels :eyetwitch2:








:snowboard1:


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## ItchEtrigR (Jan 1, 2012)

SnowDogWax said:


> Bought a pair of Missions myself. Interested in how they compare to Cartels :eyetwitch2:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I came home empty handed, baseplate/heelcup had more flex than the Cartel. More all mountain highback, a hair stiffer and a lot less twist, other than that felt like a step stiffer than the Custom maybe different when ridden but I'm not taking that chance. Waiting for them to get the Malavita restocked to check those out.


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## Mizu Kuma (Apr 13, 2014)

I had older Missions (2006 I think), and they definitely weren't as responsive as the same year Cartels!!!!! 

Got no idea as to how they compare in current models though!!!!!


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## Mizu Kuma (Apr 13, 2014)

linvillegorge said:


> Generally speaking stiffness and responsiveness are tied to one another. But, there are some bindings that are quite a bit more responsive than their stiffness would lead you to believe. The Flux DS comes to mind here. Seems like you can make a softer binding more responsive with a big ankle strap. Never rode a stiff binding that I wouldn't classify as being responsive. The two kinda go hand in hand.


Yep, "Stiffness", "Flex", "Feel", & "Responsiveness" are virtually the same thing!!!!!

It's just that while some bindings can be "Medially" (for want of a better word) responsive toward its Heel/Toe Edge, it can also be less Laterally responsive toward the Nose/Tail!!!!! Flux DS as the perfect example!!!!!

You can also throw in anomalies in "Flex Ratings", such as Baseplate Flex, Disc Mounting Flex, etc, along with Highback Flex as above!!!!! 

There'll always be differences when tech varies, such as Reflex, Mini Discs, EST, Urethane/Carbon/Nylon/Aluminium/etc, Now's Pivot, EVA, Canting Beds and Highbacks, Wings, etc, etc!!!!!

The list goes on!!!!!

Plus, using the same bindings with different boots will change it all again!!!!! Even as to how the bindings are set up!!!!! ie Forward Lean, Highback Rotation, Strap Positioning, Asym Highbacks, etc, etc!!!!!


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## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

It seems they softened the Missions when they changed the highback then. The 2014 were pretty stiff.
Which makes sense.


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## SGboarder (Jun 24, 2012)

Mizu Kuma said:


> *Yep, "Stiffness", "Flex", "Feel", & "Responsiveness" are virtually the same thing*!!!!!
> 
> It's just that while some bindings can be "Medially" (for want of a better word) responsive toward its Heel/Toe Edge, it can also be less Laterally responsive toward the Nose/Tail!!!!! Flux DS as the perfect example!!!!!
> 
> ...


Disagree with your first statement - and seems you do seeing that the rest of the post pretty much contradicts its. 
As you say, there are lots of factors that go into it.


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## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

There's definitely a strong correlation between stiffness and responsiveness. If you could make a soft binding as responsive as a stiff binding, everyone would be riding soft bindings because why not? Just like you'll never see a park rat riding a super stiff freeride binding, you'll never see a pure big mountain hard charger riding a soft jibber binding.

Think about it like this, a soft binding is going to give more, right? If it's giving, that's translating less of your movement to the board. A stiffer binding will give less and therefore translate more of your movement to the board. I'm not saying every softer binding has terrible responsiveness, but by nature a stiffer binding will have more responsiveness than a softer binding with all other factors being equal.


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## Mizu Kuma (Apr 13, 2014)

SGboarder said:


> Disagree with your first statement - and seems you do seeing that the rest of the post pretty much contradicts its.
> As you say, there are lots of factors that go into it.


No, I didn't say Burton's "Feel" Scale and Flux's "Stiffness" Scale are the same thing!!!!!

I said that those attributes are the same thing!!!!! 

eg Like linville said, a company that calls it a "Stiff" Binding is calling it a Responsive Binding!!!!! And it is also my opinion that this is true!!!!! 

If you don't think this is true, please explain the difference between a "Stiff" Binding, and a "Responsive" Binding?????


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## Mizu Kuma (Apr 13, 2014)

linvillegorge said:


> There's definitely a strong correlation between stiffness and responsiveness. If you could make a soft binding as responsive as a stiff binding, everyone would be riding soft bindings because why not? Just like you'll never see a park rat riding a super stiff freeride binding, you'll never see a pure big mountain hard charger riding a soft jibber binding.
> 
> Think about it like this, a soft binding is going to give more, right? If it's giving, that's translating less of your movement to the board. A stiffer binding will give less and therefore translate more of your movement to the board. I'm not saying every softer binding has terrible responsiveness, but by nature a stiffer binding will have more responsiveness than a softer binding with all other factors being equal.


Exactly!!!!!


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## cerebroside (Nov 6, 2012)

Mizu Kuma said:


> ...
> If you don't think this is true, please explain the difference between a "Stiff" Binding, and a "Responsive" Binding?????


My take: Responsiveness is how well the bindings transfer small movements to the board, stiffness is how much they flex when you push them hard.

Examples:

I bought a set of Ride EX bindings when I started out, and they had a bit of slop in the heel cup to baseplate connection (they have since changed the design). It felt like there was a dead-zone going edge to edge. Making small movements didn't cause the board to respond, you had to exaggerate your movements. Wouldn't have mattered how stiff they were, they just weren't responsive.

Went from that to a '13 Burton Genesis. Very responsive, in that any small amount of foot movement was transferred to the board. But they were still a soft binding, so when you pushed them hard in turns they would flex too much.

Just got a set of Union T.Rice Navigators, which I would say are both stiff and responsive.


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## Mizu Kuma (Apr 13, 2014)

cerebroside said:


> My take: Responsiveness is how well the bindings transfer small movements to the board, stiffness is how much they flex when you push them hard.
> 
> Examples:
> 
> ...


Yeah, but your example shows that it wasn't the binding, but the boot/binding marriage!!!!!

Hence the explanation that went with my other post!!!!! 

Example, if I wore ugg boots in a pair of Diodes, does that make Burton Diode's a binding that isn't responsive?????

And with the Genisis example, if you're "pushing" hard in order to get a reaction, then they are not responsive!!!!!


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## Mizu Kuma (Apr 13, 2014)

Ignore!!!!! See Edit above!!!!!


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## cerebroside (Nov 6, 2012)

Mizu Kuma said:


> Yeah, but your example shows that it wasn't the binding, but the boot/binding marriage!!!!!
> 
> Hence the explanation that went with my other post!!!!!
> 
> Example, if I wore ugg boots in a pair of Diodes, does that make Burton Diode's a binding that isn't responsive?????


Nope, the movement wasnt between the boots and binding, it was actually the heelcup (and highback with it) moving compared to the baseplate. So when you went toeside to heelside the highback would actually have to rotate a bit before it started pressuring the edge.

They had a design where the heelcup was attached to the baseplate with two screws on each side. Maybe the holes ovalized or something, but on mine you could actually wiggle the heelcup up and down a few mm in your hands. Doesn't sound like much but you could definitely feel it on the board.


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## Mizu Kuma (Apr 13, 2014)

cerebroside said:


> Nope, the movement wasnt between the boots and binding, it was actually the heelcup (and highback with it) moving compared to the baseplate. So when you went toeside to heelside the highback would actually have to rotate a bit before it started pressuring the edge.
> 
> They had a design where the heelcup was attached to the baseplate with two screws on each side. Maybe the holes ovalized or something, but on mine you could actually wiggle the heelcup up and down a few mm in your hands. Doesn't sound like much but you could definitely feel it on the board.


My misunderstanding!!!!!

I thought you meant slop between boot and heel cup!!!!!

But regardless, a moving heel cup is always gonna cost you tons in relation to loss of response!!!!! 

Pretty sure it wasn't designed to move while you rode!!!!!


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## cerebroside (Nov 6, 2012)

Mizu Kuma said:


> ...
> And with the Genisis example, if you're "pushing" hard in order to get a reaction, then they are not responsive!!!!!


Not sure if you've ridden the Genesis, and I haven't ridden a ton of bindings so I wouldn't be able to suggest any other bindings they feel like. But I find they have a very 'smooth' response edge to edge. 
You don't have to push them hard to get them to respond, I really like them in that respect, and I would consider them just as 'responsive' to small movements as my stiffer T.Rices. But if I stick them on my 164 Darker series then go into a hard toeside turn on something steep they will flex noticeable, and that is why I would say they are not stiff.


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## cerebroside (Nov 6, 2012)

Mizu Kuma said:


> My misunderstanding!!!!!
> 
> I thought you meant slop between boot and heel cup!!!!!
> 
> ...


No worries. Haha, yeah it sucked. Might have just been my pair, who knows. They changed the design soon after. But my point is that those bindings could have been stiff as anything and they still would have been unresponsive edge to edge.


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## Mizu Kuma (Apr 13, 2014)

cerebroside said:


> Not sure if you've ridden the Genesis, and I haven't ridden a ton of bindings so I wouldn't be able to suggest any other bindings they feel like. But I find they have a very 'smooth' response edge to edge.
> You don't have to push them hard to get them to respond, I really like them in that respect, and I would consider them just as 'responsive' to small movements as my stiffer T.Rices. But if I stick them on my 164 Darker series go into a hard toeside turn on something steep they will flex noticeable, and that is why I would say they are not stiff.


Again, that's why I mentioned the other factors that come into play!!!!!

Of course a stiffer board will need more push than a softer board, but this has nothin to do with the bindings "flex", "stiffness", "whatever" rating!!!!! That's the attributes of the board that's causing that!!!!!

I've never ridden Genisis', and was only goin off what you told me!!!!!


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## Mizu Kuma (Apr 13, 2014)

cerebroside said:


> No worries. Haha, yeah it sucked. Might have just been my pair, who knows. They changed the design soon after. But my point is that those bindings could have been stiff as anything and they still would have been unresponsive edge to edge.


Yep, just like me wearin a pair of uggs in Diode's!!!!! :hairy:


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## scotty100 (Apr 3, 2012)

So to sum up so far..."stiffness", "flex" and "responsiveness" are not the same when it comes to a ratings scale. Although "stiffer" highbacks are generally on bindings considered more responsive.

Hence, the ratings given to bindings using these variables cannot be considered entirely accurate. Which is why I can hand twist the bejeeezus out the the supposedly more "responsive" Genesis highback but hardly make any twist with the less "responsive" malavita highback...

I think I'm still confused somewhat...


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## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

Perfectly correct in Genesis. They are somewhat soft, but quite responsive. A very big heavy dude would probably bend the hell out of em and not get the full response. Same with Contact Pro and DS i guess.

Very stiff bindigs are ussually very responsive, since pretty much no one can deform them enough to take away the response (ie try and bend a carbon fibre highback). But, if theres any slop, or if there is any element which is there taking away response, they lose response (this can be even done on purpose, so as not to have a suuuuper stiff binding).


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## Mizu Kuma (Apr 13, 2014)

Twisting a bindings highback by hand isn't the best way to test the "medial" (heel/toe) responsiveness of a binding!!!!!

It's the equivalent to pushing in the center of a board to see how "stiff" it is!!!!! 

It can give somewhat of an indication, but not always an accurate one!!!!!

That's why you listen to both the company's ratings, and personal experiences, along with reviews, and then make a judgement based on your overall findings!!!!!

Or, as a lot of peeps do, just take a punt and see what they're like for yourself!!!!!


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