# Cartel bindings denting board



## SlvrDragon50 (Mar 25, 2017)

I don't see pics, but if I'd have to guess, you're cranking down the binding screws. How much torque are you putting on them?


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## bazman (Jan 15, 2017)

I do them as tight as I can using a standard length screwdriver, not sure of exact torque

But having no luck with pics from my phone, will try from laptop tomorrow


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## Rip154 (Sep 23, 2017)

Cant see pictures either, but usually a case of some boards being reinforced to take the beating, and others making bindings that wont smash up a board. With softer boards that dont have reinforcements, grab some bindings with pads. If its just dents and you havent snapped anything, ducttape should work.


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## kriegs13 (Nov 28, 2016)

I know what youre talking about and I have experienced it as well. Exclusive to Burton reflex bindings in my memory. I haven't seen anything more than superficial dents happen though. There was a discussion about this on 
DMQ some months back and it seemed as though it was pretty common but, as is tradition, that thread went south pretty quickly.


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## drblast (Feb 28, 2017)

I've experienced this with reflex bindings and it's one of the reasons I don't like them. Their base plates are pretty soft so the front of the base plate will flex into the board with quite a bit of leverage behind it. 

The dents on my board were cosmetic as far as I can tell, but I do prefer bindings with stiffer baseplates for this and other reasons.


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## bazman (Jan 15, 2017)

2nd attempt at uploading pics. The board pic isn't that great actually - doesn't show the dents very well. But I've only ridden that board for 10 ish hours

kriegs13 and drblast both confirm the same issue though, so seems to be fault with the bindings. If its just topsheet damage then I guess board will be ok, but I will be selling one of my boards soon and will get less for it now due to the damage

I might contact Burton to see what they say

Cheers, Barry


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## kriegs13 (Nov 28, 2016)

bazman said:


> 2nd attempt at uploading pics. The board pic isn't that great actually - doesn't show the dents very well. But I've only ridden that board for 10 ish hours
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I see the pics now. Yours looks more pronounced than mine. In that there are shapes/outlines. Mine are just tiny divots from the binding corners. 

I don’t imagine that’s something that would be covered. But you never know with rider services. They’ve fixed some interesting cases. A burton board having the issue with their bindings is perhaps a “case” but not really in my book. 

I have heard a couple of different shop kids tell legends of this issue causing boards to snap outside the bindings but have found no nothing to support that. 




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## f00bar (Mar 6, 2014)

30in/lbs, about 3 newtons, is pretty much the accepted torque requirement. You are likely way over torqued for no reason at all. You don't need to crank it down.


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## drblast (Feb 28, 2017)

Yeah the dents in my board are literally mellow "dents" nearer to the edge, right where the front of the binding would push into the board on a hard turn. I guess I'm putting a lot of pressure there.

But my dents don't look like your dents. I'll try to post pics or video of mine.


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## kriegs13 (Nov 28, 2016)

drblast said:


> Yeah the dents in my board are literally mellow "dents" nearer to the edge, right where the front of the binding would push into the board on a hard turn. I guess I'm putting a lot of pressure there.
> 
> But my dents don't look like your dents. I'll try to post pics or video of mine.


Yeah. what he said. i dont want to pull stuff out and get all antsy this far out from the season or id grab a pic. The best I can describe it is like the tiny dent a car might get from a high speed flying pebble. but wicked tiny.


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## Triple8Sol (Nov 24, 2008)

More and more people, including myself, have found this issue. Have it seen it happen to all kinds of boards like Capita, Jones, Lib/Gnu, Rome, etc... so it's clearly not an issue with a specific manufacturer or even factory. Have seen it happen from a variety of Re:Flex models like the Cartel, Malavita, and Genesis, so it isn't isolated to a specific model. Burton needs to redesign that sharp point on the inner heelside.


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## zagfan5 (Apr 12, 2017)

damn, i never knew the re-flex bindings did this. im glad i still have and use my pre re-flex purp cartels. they have stiff baseplates.


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## f00bar (Mar 6, 2014)

I think all this confirms is that people crank their bindings way too tight. There's no need for any more torque than will keep the screws from undoing. And that's not a lot at all. Flush and firm against the board is all you want. You don't want to embed the things into the top sheet. It serves no purpose.


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## bazman (Jan 15, 2017)

I'm not convinced about the over tightening. If that was the cause then more bindings would have the problem. Also the dents would match the whole shape of the baseplate, and mine dont, they only happen on toe edge and heel edge

Problem seems to be due to flexy base plate being too flexy


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## Rip154 (Sep 23, 2017)

Have used the cartel reflex model on a lib board for a couple years, no dents. The frame of those feel kinda stiff though. Suspect the topsheet and bindings dont match up. Maybe you could cut something to put between the topsheet and bindings.


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## ekb18c (Mar 11, 2013)

In reality that dent doesn't do anything to the board. The performance isn't affected and you can't see with bindings on. I used to be like this with all my boards but then a few bumps from people on the line and chips from storing in thule boxes and you will get over this really quick. It's all superficial 

I mean if you don't like the way cartels do this then use your money and buy other bindings.


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## Triple8Sol (Nov 24, 2008)

Highly doubt this has much to do with over or under tightening. No matter how loose your bindings are mounted, the base is going to be flush with the board's topsheet. The dent gets caused by that sharp point on the inner heel corner of each binding. Have not heard of this happen with any EST binding, which makes sense since it doesn't have that sharp point. Working theory is that the Re:Flex baseplate doesn't distribute pressure as evenly as most others, since the baseplate eliminates the typical dead spot and is super flexy, so a disproportionate amount of pressure is applied to that specific point. Physics.

Obviously results will vary because some topsheets really seem to be stronger (i.e. Never Summer's carbonium), but moreso variance in rider weight and riding style. Also seems more common on boards with some combination of setback/taper/extra width. Flex doesn't appear to be a determining factor. The more aggressive those specs, the more likely it seems to be vs. say, someone running duck foot on a narrower twin. The extrapolation is that people will run these boards with more extreme angles, get lower, and carve harder more often, thereby putting significantly more psi on that point.

Anecdotal evidence is what it is. No point to argue, because it's already been proven to anyone that has seen a wide sample size in person. Have seen this happen to several different riders on many different board brands, with nearly every Re:Flex binding in the lineup. Have not seen this happen to any women's boards thus far, again most likely due to rider weight and/or riding style.

For everyone this has happened to repeatedly, yes most of them have moved away from non-EST B bindings for good, or at least until they're redesigned. Sure, it may not matter to the average consumer who buys a couple boards on sale and rides them til they fall apart...nothing wrong with that. There are probably more than a few people that don't even know it's happened because they leave their bindings on 24/7. It's easy to spot right away when you're constantly swapping boards/bindings around and definitely matters to people who drop paychecks on high end gear or are constantly trading boards like basically everyone on DMQ.


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## Brambo (Dec 21, 2012)

Triple8Sol said:


> High doubt this has much to do with overtightening. No matter how loose your bindings are mounted, the base is going to be flush with the board's topsheet. The dent gets caused by that sharp point on the inner heel corner of each binding. Have not heard of this happen with any EST binding, which makes sense since it doesn't have that sharp point. Working theory is that the Re:Flex baseplate doesn't distribute pressure as evenly as most others, since the baseplate eliminates the typical dead spot and is super flexy, so a disproportionate amount of pressure is applied to that specific point. Physics.
> 
> Obviously results will vary because some topsheets really seem to be stronger (i.e. Never Summer's carbonium), but moreso variance in rider weight and riding style. Also seems more common on boards with some combination of setback/taper/extra width. Flex doesn't appear to be a determining factor. The more aggressive those specs, the more likely it seems to be vs. say, someone running duck foot on a narrower twin. The extrapolation is that people will run these boards with more extreme angles, get lower, and carve harder more often, thereby putting significantly more psi on that point.
> 
> ...


Sorry for dusting off this older thread, but the above is definitely what is going on with my Re:Flex Cartels. The sharp points on the inner heel corner is pinching the topsheet of by boards. I ride a Jones MT and a new Powfinder Morris swallowtail. I do tend to carve pretty hard on both of them and especially on the mega-setback/tapered broad Powfinder they nearly went through the topsheet after one day of riding!
Can't understand Burton never redesigned the baseplate, as it seems to be a common problem..

So, the hard part for me is that I really like the Cartels in terms of medium stiffness and comfort, as well as that I don't feel like splashing cash on new bindings after half a season..
I was thinking of maybe sanding the sharp edges off, but don't really trust this will solve the problem.
Or should I really just look into new bindings.. :-/
Any suggestions?


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## Rip154 (Sep 23, 2017)

Seems like the Mission is the only binding in the current line with that baseplate. I like the freestyle/custom/clutch one best anyways, awesome stuff.


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## speedjason (May 2, 2013)

I think this kinda issue is due to under tightening.
When you under tighten, you allow more movement between the board and the bindings.
I always crank mine down till they bottom out.


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## bazman (Jan 15, 2017)

speedjason said:


> I think this kinda issue is due to under tightening.


Some say over tightening, others say under tightening, but I don't believe this issue occurs with other types of bindings

Do you have Re:Flex, and if you do you have the dents on top of board?


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## speedjason (May 2, 2013)

bazman said:


> Some say over tightening, others say under tightening, but I don't believe this issue occurs with other types of bindings
> 
> Do you have Re:Flex, and if you do you have the dents on top of board?


I use Union Force. Maybe my stiffer binding is less flexible on the board? More flex meaning more likely the binding base is going to wedge into the board.
The reflex disc does seem kinda flexy.
Plus IDK if you can over tighten the screws on a snowboard. The mounting holes have a bottom so you can tighten until the screw bottom out without over tighten. At least it's my case with Salomon boards and Union bindings.


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## kriegs13 (Nov 28, 2016)

speedjason said:


> I use Union Force. Maybe my stiffer binding is less flexible on the board? More flex meaning more likely the binding base is going to wedge into the board.
> The reflex disc does seem kinda flexy.
> Plus IDK if you can over tighten the screws on a snowboard. The mounting holes have a bottom so you can tighten until the screw bottom out without over tighten. At least it's my case with Salomon boards and Union bindings.


Nah its not a tightening issue. Known issue with some Re:Flex models. Some claim that they've seen it cause boards to snap at those points but I've only ever had it cause the dents which seemed almost entirely superficial. Forces are quite different than bindings from the B so that's a pretty significant variable in your hypothesis.

Also, one can certainly over tighten bindings. Just because it has a bottom doesn't stop some dum dums continuing to try and get it innnnnn. Especially fond of the winner who uses a drill to mount all the way.


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## Jackson Junglist (10 mo ago)

I am riding a fairly old pair of Cartel Bindings from 2015 that have punctured four holes through the topsheet of my board into the board's core. I called Burton about this, and they told me that warranty did not cover it and it was most likely due to my bindings not being bolted on tight enough. I promise that all eight bolts were super tight when I removed them from my old board. They did, however, insult me with a measly 20% off coupon code for my next purchase.


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## Surgeon (Apr 13, 2020)

Pretty much all my boards in the last 30+ years have had binding marks and rash and I really don't care. It's a board and in a few years I'll change it anyways. It's meant to be ridden.

Yours look bad though but I wouldn't sweat it too much. Seal the marks with epoxy if you're worried and ride on. If you're this unhappy about it buy different bindings next time sure but it's not like it made the board unrideable.


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## Jackson Junglist (10 mo ago)

Surgeon said:


> Pretty much all my boards in the last 30+ years have had binding marks and rash and I really don't care. It's a board and in a few years I'll change it anyways. It's meant to be ridden.
> 
> Yours look bad though but I wouldn't sweat it too much. Seal the marks with epoxy if you're worried and ride on. If you're this unhappy about it buy different bindings next time sure but it's not like it made the board unrideable.


I agree that every binding I've ever mounted on a snowboard deck has left divots and marks, but never have I seen holes punctured through the topsheet into the core. I might file the sharp corners down a bit and use some sort of material to distribute the force before I mount these to my brand new deck. For the meantime, I've mounted my 15 year old P1 bindings, and they are okay.


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## Donutz (May 12, 2010)

That's bad design no matter how you look at it. Bare metal support points should have rung a bell with someone before they ever hit production.


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## Jackson Junglist (10 mo ago)

Donutz said:


> That's bad design no matter how you look at it. Bare metal support points should have rung a bell with someone before they ever hit production.


The baseplate is not metal. This has more to do with the Re:Flex system that Burton designed where the plastic of the baseplate is not continuous across the heel. This leaves sharp corners so when the board flexes, these corners dig slightly into the board. After a few thousand heelside turns, they penetrate through the topsheet into the core.


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## Donutz (May 12, 2010)

Jackson Junglist said:


> The baseplate is not metal. This has more to do with the Re:Flex system that Burton designed where the plastic of the baseplate is not continuous across the heel. This leaves sharp corners so when the board flexes, these corners dig slightly into the board. After a few thousand heelside turns, they penetrate through the topsheet into the core.


The NOW system is vaguely similar, in that the binding is acting on the board at 4 points. But NOW puts rubber bumpers at those points, so no hole-digging.


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## ridethecliche (Feb 27, 2019)

I'd say those marks are particularly bad though... To the point where I'd consider taking a file to the sharp edges to prevent this in the future. I think this design has changed since then a bit. 

I also wonder if your reflex discs are worn and allow more movement over time which allows this to happen... Possibly because they were a bit loose at one time or just worn over use. 

How many days do you have on these bindings?


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## foe (Feb 10, 2017)

There was some discussion of this issue (and some photos) in this recent thread: Burton Malavitas are the best binding ever made change...
I had some past-season Cartels ready and waiting but ended up selling them (unused) based on this. I’m north of 90kg so didn’t want to risk cracking my topsheet. Shame as I was really looking forward to trying them.


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## Triple8Sol (Nov 24, 2008)

Sadly, the Burton fanboys and employees have managed to bury this issue, so the Re:Flex baseplate still has that same sharp corner. Such a shame that they refuse to address/correct this inherent design flaw, because so many other aspects of their bindings are amazing.


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