# Return to softboots?



## NoirX252 (Aug 1, 2009)

I am moving to Colorado next month, and figure it might be time to switch back to softboots (I hardboot, but my current gear is just good for groomed runs, to get a hardboot setup to work all mountain would be kind of troublesome).

Is there, anything out there that can support someone 225lbs, with a 25.6cm foot (~ 7.5-8 US), but with a 11cm width? (my 10.5 US shoe 4E doesn't contain my foot width)... with a board with an appropriate waist (in other words, a narrow waisted board, so my foot doesn't end up inbounds), but still has the length for my riding style? (160+) and supports my weight?

my 160 neversummer heritage 2009 with a 25.4cm waist and a 7.85m sidecut, is too wide for me. (the last model before they went rocker)

or am I effed and limited to hardboots?  
I know the season in Colorado starts wayyy earler than in NY, and I'm pretty stoked!

The board needs to be stiff enough to handle high speed, laid over until my butt is sliding on heel sides, or complete eurocarves both wings, while being versatile enough for powder, trees, etc...
My naked feet must be right over the edges with no inbound for maximum leverage, and I prefer forward stance angles, I would say 30/15 or 21/6 or so, 21/12... whatever.

I have palmer riser plates too currently.


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## ShredLife (Feb 6, 2010)

i can't understand why for any reason you would be limited to hard boots in any circumstance, ever, except _maybe_ GS racing. 

if you (for whatever reason) think that your "naked feet must be right over the edges with no inbound" then you better get to shops and start standing ontop of boards with no shoes on....


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## NoirX252 (Aug 1, 2009)

I said I might be limited to hardboots cause you can have them stretched among all sorts of things for a weirdly shaped foot. (length of a size 7.5-8 foot yet wider than 4e in a 10.5 shoe..... and extremely flat feet).

Having inbound feet results in a huge loss of leverage, and yes I will be standing on boards in shops with a naked foot.... err... socks on... if I decide to go back to softboots for my all mountain needs.

Not too knowledgeable about boards, most if not all softboot boards that seem to be the right width for me are always ~152cm, and suggested for riders below.. 180? lbs...


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## snowklinger (Aug 30, 2011)

32's fit me well I have flat wide feet. You could get them punched around by a bootfitter to accommodate certain areas.

I don't really see how a normal width board is "too wide" for you. Wide boards are too wide because they are usually a fatter version of the original - and people only ride them because _their feet are too big_. Since you are obviously big enough to ride a 160, you must have the strength to turn it... Foot size is only relevant dealing with toe overhang, if you weigh 225 your Heritage is not too wide for you, get used to riding a proper board instead of a monoski. I'm trying to wrap my head around your issue, its difficult for my pea size drug addled mind.

Get stronger? Lose 80lbs? Hey I'm working on shrinking my own beergut right now, it aint easy just sayin, aint judgin...


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## hktrdr (Apr 3, 2012)

snowklinger said:


> 32's fit me well I have flat wide feet. You could get them punched around by a bootfitter to accommodate certain areas.
> 
> I don't really see how a normal width board is "too wide" for you. Wide boards are too wide because they are usually a fatter version of the original - and people only ride them because _their feet are too big_. Since you are obviously big enough to ride a 160, you must have the strength to turn it... *Foot size is only relevant dealing with toe overhang,* if you weigh 225 your Heritage is not too wide for you, get used to riding a proper board instead of a monoski. I'm trying to wrap my head around your issue, its difficult for my pea size drug addled mind.
> 
> Get stronger? Lose 80lbs? Hey I'm working on shrinking my own beergut right now, it aint easy just sayin, aint judgin...


Erm no, the foot size-board width relationship is _*not*_ just relevant for dealing with overhangs. Rather, a board that is too wide for a certain foot/shoe size will make it quote hard to get adequate edge pressure/control - otherwise we could all just ride wider boards
In fact, ideally _*there should be some toe/heel overhang of the boot*_ - see wiredsport's excellent discussion of appropriate board width.


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## NoirX252 (Aug 1, 2009)

Oh my god, someone that knows what he is talking about!

PS: I'm at 180lbs of lean body mass, at 200 I'd be 10% bodyfat, so yes, I would ideally like to lose 25 lbs of fat, thanks  (and I'd still be over the weight limit for a lot of boards with an appropriate waist width size for my feet).



hktrdr said:


> Erm no, the foot size-board width relationship is _*not*_ just relevant for dealing with overhangs. Rather, a board that is too wide for a certain foot/shoe size will make it quote hard to get adequate edge pressure/control - otherwise we could all just ride wider boards
> In fact, ideally _*there should be some toe/heel overhang of the boot*_ - see wiredsport's excellent discussion of appropriate board width.


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## snowklinger (Aug 30, 2011)

Sorry I am aware of what you are saying, both guys, just have a hard time understanding your dilemma. Obviously you dont want to go try to ride a wide board with small feet, I just can't imagine a normal width board being TOO WIDE for someone who has that much body mass. *If *you are determined to ride a 160 - I have no problems on a 154 at 180lbs and you could ride ANY normal width 154 with size 7.5 or 8s. 

I'm not trying to be an asshole I'm just saying somethings gotta give or go find someone to make you a special board.


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## NoirX252 (Aug 1, 2009)

Dammit I was afraid of that (needing a custom)...

time to win the lotto.


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## hktrdr (Apr 3, 2012)

snowklinger said:


> Sorry I am aware of what you are saying, both guys, just have a hard time understanding your dilemma. Obviously you dont want to go try to ride a wide board with small feet, I just can't imagine a normal width board being TOO WIDE for someone who has that much body mass. If you are determined to ride a 160 - I have no problems on a 154 at 180lbs and you could ride ANY normal width 154 with size 7.5 or 8s.
> 
> I'm not trying to be an asshole I'm just saying somethings gotta give or go find someone to make you a special board.


Fair enough, I just disagreed with your logic/reasoning that a board cannot be too wide - however, I pretty much agree with your conclusion that the OP should be able to ride a regular width board even with his weight and shoe size.

In fact, the GNU Billy Goat might suit the OP - stiff, fast, very good edge hold, mellow sidecut, good float in powder and quite narrow (only 25/25.3/25.5 for 159/162/165).

But only the OP knows why he is using riser plates and those extreme stance angles...


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## Ballistic (Aug 31, 2009)

Just demo some boards this winter. Whenever i hear "hardboot" or "euroCarve" i immediately picture leather, studs, whips, chains, and other instruments :laugh:


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## snowklinger (Aug 30, 2011)

I knew we were all friends. Lets get drunk and goto onsen!


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## NoirX252 (Aug 1, 2009)

what about eurocarving in softies? hahahaha


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## snowklinger (Aug 30, 2011)

NoirX252 said:


> what about eurocarving


I knew there was something wrong with this guy :cheeky4:


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## NoirX252 (Aug 1, 2009)

I'm pretty dam sure I'll stray away from the eurocarving when hitting pow, trees, errr, anything resembling a big mountain compared to NY.... but for groomers.. yes.. I must carve really close to the ground at speed, I'm weird like that.


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## hktrdr (Apr 3, 2012)

snowklinger said:


> I knew we were all friends. Lets get drunk and goto onsen!


The beauty of Japan: You can drink (and get drunk) sitting in the onsen after a day of riding.


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## Wiredsport (Sep 16, 2009)

Hi Noir,

Wow. You have 3 major things working against you:

1. A very large discepancy between your weight and foot size.

Boards designed for 2225 lb riders are typically not designed for size 7.5.

2. An unusually wide foot which has you wearing a boot which is 3 full sizes larger than your foot.

Not great for heel lift. Not great for toe drag (assuming we find you a board that suits your weight at the correct width)

3. You prefer very forward angles.

This effectively requires and even narrower board for you to get the toe/heel position and leverage that you are after.

-------------------------------------------------

That is the bad news (and you knew that). What to do.

Boots: I would suggest going to all of your local shops and trying on a zillion boots. 3 sizes above your shoe size is too much (even to accomodate a 4E). You need to bring that down and I believe you can doo this without going to custom boots. Heat molded liners can help a lot here and can allow extra width in the molding process without extra length. Also, you need to be using the thinnest snowboard socks available. 

Board: Narrow as possible. There are some smaller manufacturers that have very narrow options available. I have not seen or ridden those so you will want to get other opinions on models/how well they perform. If you go with mainstream models that are built for your weight it will be a matter of compromise. Less than ideal width, non-preferred angles.


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## NoirX252 (Aug 1, 2009)

Thank you for all the help.

I think what I'll do is visit a very reputable bootfitter in the Denver area, get a full custom footbed made (money is no object, I am sick of foot pain), and have his recommendation to various boot choices, soft or hard and go from there.



Wiredsport said:


> Hi Noir,
> 
> Wow. You have 3 major things working against you:
> 
> ...


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## t21 (Dec 29, 2010)

2225 freaking lbs!!!! damn,that's a HUGE b^*#!


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## Nivek (Jan 24, 2008)

NoirX252 said:


> Thank you for all the help.
> 
> I think what I'll do is visit a very reputable bootfitter in the Denver area, get a full custom footbed made (money is no object, I am sick of foot pain), and have his recommendation to various boot choices, soft or hard and go from there.


Where in Denver? 

In the past Salomon has made wides in certain models. Something to look into. Otherwise if this were me fitting you (I work in Colorado Springs right now, also one of my managers will understand you're need to carve), I'd be putting you into a higher end K2 to start. Generally a wider fit but the conda liner system is great at holding heels down.

Off the top of my head, look into the Signal OG (also comes in flat for 2013). The 157 has a waist of 24.9 and the 159 is 25.2. The Salomon Burner 160 has a waist of 25.1. I can't speak for its ride, but the YES TDF 157 has a waist of 24.8. The Ride Berzerker 160 is 25.0. The 158 Jones Flagship is 24.9.

Those are some of the narrower more aggressive boards out there. One thing to remember though anything with rocker is easier to turn because they require less leverage to put them on edge. Which also means they require less leverage to KEEP on edge. Does this mean you'll like it? Not necessarily, but the physics is there. Ultimately the only way to know is to demo. Colorado Ski and Golf should be selling the Loveland demo tickets again this year. Usually $40-50 gets you lift ticket, demo ticket, and a meal. I recommend doing this.

Also despite what I'm sure your first reaction to the tech will be, look into NOW bindings. Though you would think that the play means slop, what it really does is position better over your edge for better leverage. This will help you.


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## NoirX252 (Aug 1, 2009)

I was thinking Larry's Bootfitting in Boulder. Although, surprise surprise, I will be in the living in the CO Springs area, where is your shop located? I may stop by late October when I move in.

I am most likely going to get a loveland season pass with some visits to Monarch (ever been there?)

To be completely honest, at this point in time I'm considering a modified hardboot setup as it provides the stiffness i crave with longetivity in materials (materials wont' break down as fast compared to softboots resulting in a less stiff boot)... but I am completely open.

How are burton driver's for wide feet? 

Off the top of my head, my ideal softboot setup would be burton drivers, or some customizable stiff, stiff softboot, with a binding offering just the right progressive flex in the highback (clueless!), with a regular camber board with a 10+ m sidecut radius and long running length... (Probably a bx board or some variant).. but short enough for maneuverability...I'm guessing between 160-170 with stiffness in materials for a rider my weight.

I wish I wasn't so OCD. But I know what I want and realize the performance downgrade in poor fitting equipment. Not to meantion.... I think underleveraging amplifies arch pain from toeside carves... I think... If I was to ride my current softboot setup (wrong sized), i would bias both bindings towards the toes... less leverage, no high back... to compensate.


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## ShredLife (Feb 6, 2010)

i've never worn em but aren't 32s supposed to be good for wide feet?


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## snowklinger (Aug 30, 2011)

Another thing that will help foot pain for you is being here and riding more.

When I ride once a week or less my feet always hurt the first run or so just cuz of how I clench em up and shit. Whenever I get 2 or more days a week I have no issues. Those are alot of small muscles which if not used regularly can give you alot of grief.


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## NoirX252 (Aug 1, 2009)

I get foot pain riding 6 days/week... lol.

I sincerely hope fully custom footbeds will help me.


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## Nivek (Jan 24, 2008)

NoirX252 said:


> I was thinking Larry's Bootfitting in Boulder. Although, surprise surprise, I will be in the living in the CO Springs area, where is your shop located? I may stop by late October when I move in.
> 
> I am most likely going to get a loveland season pass with some visits to Monarch (ever been there?)
> 
> ...


By then I'll be in Breck. But I work at the CSG in the Springs. We have some other very good boot fitters and guys that are certified with full custom cork Superfeet. And as far as your board requirements, I know of nothing short of an alpine board or full custom that is going to have a 10+ sidecut. 

You want a softboot alpine setup. That doesn't exist anymore. Even boardercross is dying. You are going to have to compromise somewhere, either suck it up and ride what is now standard, or spend upwards of $2k.

Custom insoles will absolutely help with arch stresses.

If you're going to live in CO and ride more than once a month I'd just get the EPIC pass. Unlimited to Vail, Beave, Breck, Keyston, A-Basin, Northstar, Kirkwood, and Heavenly. You will love the Beave for your type of riding. Monarch always has good snow, but I wish they had like 1000 more vertical feet.


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## NoirX252 (Aug 1, 2009)

Eff, I'm going to switch to skiing now.

j/k 

Going to have to do a lot of thinking and budgeting and decide what I want.



Nivek said:


> By then I'll be in Breck. But I work at the CSG in the Springs. We have some other very good boot fitters and guys that are certified with full custom cork Superfeet. And as far as your board requirements, I know of nothing short of an alpine board or full custom that is going to have a 10+ sidecut.
> 
> You want a softboot alpine setup. That doesn't exist anymore. Even boardercross is dying. You are going to have to compromise somewhere, either suck it up and ride what is now standard, or spend upwards of $2k.
> 
> ...


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## NoirX252 (Aug 1, 2009)

I decided I want softboots (well, my hardboots are a bit tight for all mountain use, don't want to buy new hardboots, they are EXPENSIVE)... I rather spend everything on a nice, new (or maybe used) high performance softboot setup!

Most likely bx based, as I really want STIFF. I don't believe softboots can be stiff enough? The softer flexing hardboots feel extremely "noodley" to me... so...

However I understand the disadvantages of a poorly interfaced system (the board will of course be stiff), this is concerning binding/boot interface.

how is burton driver x paired with c02/c60 (which?)
I think most bx'er sare on driver x's with c02's?
How about salomon malamutes?

I'm not into any overly cushy bindings like NOW's, unless I'm mistaken, I understand people like them, but I believe softboots themselves already introduce enough slop into the system and that any extra is detrimental (guessing, hardboots have elastometer systems/flex in the bindings for slop, including iso plates.. so nothing new here).


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## Lamps (Sep 3, 2011)

NoirX252 said:


> I decided I want softboots (well, my hardboots are a bit tight for all mountain use, don't want to buy new hardboots, they are EXPENSIVE)... I rather spend everything on a nice, new (or maybe used) high performance softboot setup!
> 
> Most likely bx based, as I really want STIFF. I don't believe softboots can be stiff enough? The softer flexing hardboots feel extremely "noodley" to me... so...
> 
> ...


I have C60's, super stiff and responsive. I wear ions with them. 

It sounds like you are trying to make a softboot setup into a carving setup, are you sure this is what you should do? The soft boot stance is sideways, unlike carving where shoulders face down the hill. I used to ride a forward stance in soft boots and through some lessons was convinced that to improve my turns I needed to get at least to zero on my back foot. 

Consider carving in your carving board and using a more conventional stance and technique on the softboot setup.


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## NoirX252 (Aug 1, 2009)

Overall technique is what matters in carving over body position on the board. Sure a more sideways facing stance is less than ideal, but it can be done. The concepts are the same but the body movements to achieve them are different, no biggie.

I'm looking ride with angles approximately 21/6, 30/15, 21/12 or in that area (actually the stance will be determined by the board width)

Are the c60's canted? I will most likely need canting on both bindings, bent inwards due to knock knees.


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## ShredLife (Feb 6, 2010)

have you looked at catek bindings?

Snowboard Bindings, CATEK Community, Binding, Kessler, Gear, Boot, Shop


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## NoirX252 (Aug 1, 2009)

Actually yes I have, was just considering other options (as those bindings are 400+)... also those bindings have quite.. a lot of screws.... (not opposed, but not for them either, mainly due to the cost)... although if I really need em, I'll get em. lol


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## ShredLife (Feb 6, 2010)

well FWIW i think that they are as close to hardboot binding performance as you're gonna get with softboots/traditional style bindings...


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## Lamps (Sep 3, 2011)

NoirX252 said:


> Overall technique is what matters in carving over body position on the board. Sure a more sideways facing stance is less than ideal, but it can be done. The concepts are the same but the body movements to achieve them are different, no biggie.
> 
> I'm looking ride with angles approximately 21/6, 30/15, 21/12 or in that area (actually the stance will be determined by the board width)
> 
> Are the c60's canted? I will most likely need canting on both bindings, bent inwards due to knock knees.


Stock C60 footbeds are not canted, but you can I believe replace the footbeds with canted ones. I would check compatibility before buying and note the c60s are no longer made so you are in the used market


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## jdang307 (Feb 6, 2011)

Nivek said:


> Where in Denver?
> 
> In the past Salomon has made wides in certain models. Something to look into. Otherwise if this were me fitting you (I work in Colorado Springs right now, also one of my managers will understand you're need to carve), I'd be putting you into a higher end K2 to start. Generally a wider fit but the conda liner system is great at holding heels down.
> 
> ...


Which k2 is wider? I bought the Maysis and it was not wide enough for me. And mine are not that wide. The 32 lashed are roomy


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## Nivek (Jan 24, 2008)

jdang307 said:


> Which k2 is wider? I bought the Maysis and it was not wide enough for me. And mine are not that wide. The 32 lashed are roomy


They're average in the heel, slightly wider than average in the midfoot, and wider in the toebox. That's a general thing though. Some will be roomier and some will be tighter.


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