# Park progress ( any tips? )



## Catman (Mar 16, 2008)

Do you guys see any bad habits forming? It's short I know but he is learning front boards and 180's ( he comes up short sometimes) There is other stuff in there too... 


http://vimeo.com/20271689


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## Smokehaus (Nov 2, 2010)

Fixed the link for you.

Chase having fun

Tough little dude you got there. I don't know about bad habbits but he is for sure killing it for his age.


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## Catman (Mar 16, 2008)

Thanks for the fix. I wonder why we can't embed vimeo like we can with you tube?


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## Smokehaus (Nov 2, 2010)

Pretty sure Snowolf said he was gonna look into it or something about we may or may not of been coded to embed vimeo. 

But yeah, no vimeo yet. :thumbsdown:

EDIT: I lied it was Killclimbz who said it in this thread.

http://www.snowboardingforum.com/news-updates-suggestions/32830-embed-vimeo-forum.html#post380887


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## pmoa (Jan 16, 2010)

he is killin it man...i can barely hit 1 foot jumps!


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## Ciaccio02 (Feb 22, 2011)

Hes killin it! Man hes good. think he could give me some pointers?  
Do you let him hit bigger size jumps? i really only see him focusing on rails.


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## BliND KiNK (Feb 22, 2010)

No joke... rail junkies lose teeth man.. put that baby on the BootaZ!

but seriously he's ripping it up... the way he contorts his body is pretty regular for most park riders just to stay in the habit of resetting between hits in their run... I literally have that same spazzy movement where I'm always adjusting... especially on ice..


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## Enigmatic (Feb 6, 2009)

siickk, if you haven't already, get him the snowboard addiction set...that would give some good ideas on how to progress with proper form and such


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## PanHandler (Dec 23, 2010)

i also highly highly suggest the Snowboard Addiction DVD series. Theyre great videos.


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## Catman (Mar 16, 2008)

Thanks you guys for all the advice. Sorry the video doesn't show much of what I asked about getting help for.I put that together for him to show friends.Those teaching video look like the way to go!:thumbsup:

I will post up some better clips of front boards and 180's later tonight.


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## qsilvr99 (Dec 22, 2009)

I envy those who got/get to start riding at such a young age. Little guy is looking awesome.


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## slyder (Jan 18, 2010)

that is so cool, really neat to see you and your boy riding together and for him to have that kind of skill


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## ptapia (Dec 1, 2010)

I wish I would've been on a board at that age as well. Awesome stuff, I think he's doing great! You've gotta be one proud dad!:thumbsup:


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## Catman (Mar 16, 2008)

Here are some raw clips of front board, Back lip, Board slide, 180 on , and some up rail ( kind of like a small jump sorry not many good jump vids.) I slowed a couple of them down thinking maybe it would help critique him.


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## slyder (Jan 18, 2010)

I have a hard time critiquing someone that is 50x's better than me and younger than my youngest kid by many years ahahaahaaa

My only input is his knees look locked or very stiff when he is on most of the features. I always thought a little more flex of the knees on features was better. Again, he is way way better than me but that is what I saw. 

Fun watching him ride, thats for sure.


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## Smokehaus (Nov 2, 2010)

Your little dude straight rips it. Makes me want to cry and its not even my son!

Also, yes on the knee bending.


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## Catman (Mar 16, 2008)

yah I tell him bend your knees !! and he tells me I AM! but clearly he is not I am glad someone else sees it too.

Thanks for the props. on his progression :thumbsup:


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## Catman (Mar 16, 2008)

Smokehaus said:


> Your little dude straight rips it. Makes me want to cry and its not even my son!


Thanks! I am soo glad my boys love this sport as much as I do. I love watching them ride.


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## slyder (Jan 18, 2010)

Seeing how good he currently is, and I know coaching will make him better.
But what are his and your goals for him, pro. It might not be worth drilling him and getting him to change his style. You don't want to take the fun out of it for him.

As he matures physically and emotionally, that is the point at which I would consider more coaching or structured riding. Again I think it all depends on yours and his goals.

Just a thought...


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## Catman (Mar 16, 2008)

We don't talk about that with him, we go out and just ride and have fun. He takes my camera and films friends and all kinds of stuff.

Some nights we go up and he just plays around with all the people up there , and I say do you want to ride? And he just says nah not right now and I say ok just let me know.

Now he says all I want to do when I grow up is be better than Shuan White And I say I am sure you can be.

My main reason for starting this thread was to help make sure I am not teaching or letting any bad habits form that might be hard to break:dunno:


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## init (Mar 8, 2010)

That kid is really good! Hope the both of you stick with it :thumbsup:


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## DC5R (Feb 21, 2008)

I can honestly say I wish I was as good as him in the park :thumbsup:


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## Catman (Mar 16, 2008)

That makes sense Snowwolf, he does use his whole body correct. The same thing happens on jumps he is soo small the normal drop in is way too slow.We just try to adapt to make it as safe and fun as we can.

Thank you guys for all to positive feedback:thumbsup:

We are off to Boone for a rail jam!


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## rasmasyean (Jan 26, 2008)

I think his use of upper body movements is a great thing and it will only get better with time. Right now it might seem like he's "jerking it" but in reality...not sure if he was coached before or just discovered it himself...he is using rapid "inertial balance" moves to align his board properly. Sometimes he's not "perfect" (and no one is) so he might over-do it, or over-compensate for some mistake, but he's on the right track. When you see "grownups" do these on freestyle manuevers, they look slower and smoother because a bigger mass moves slower, and they are usually pros who have done it millions of times and have got it down to a precise art form.

Freestyle requires awareness of the entire body (not just mostly concentrating on the legs). Even if he transfers these "upper body techniques" to simple riding, it's not bad, because it will just make his brain more wired to manuevering in the air. It also helps tackle tough terrain like dense trees and moguls and steeps as well. When you see youtube videos of good riders in tough terrain, you see a lot of upper body movements. IMO, just rellying on your legs to do most of the work all the time is like baby stuff compared to ppl who are full-body aware. Although I would guess that some ppl have more talent than others regarding this. Some ppl can easily run, but other ppl can run and do backflips, climb, jump, tumble, and swing like a monkey. It's a talent, not something you want to discourage just so you can "board like every other winter vacationer".

*The snowboarder is a complete system.* It's not just some person driving a car. If you are racing in like GS, maybe you want the board to do most of the work while "standing on it properly", but definately not in freestyle.

Also, I noticed that in many of the boardslides, he doesn't do a complete 90. This is because there is NOT ENOUGH upper body movements. It just looks like a lot because prolly he has to do it as much as possible because the board is relatively heavy compared to one on a grownup. This might be a good point to keep in mind.


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## Catman (Mar 16, 2008)

Well we just got home from App. and he WON! his first rail contest. I am very proud of him.

Top feature he had a nice nose slide and on the bottom feature he did a solid board slide. He had 3 drops but he just tweaked those same tricks.


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## rasmasyean (Jan 26, 2008)

Snowolf said:


> Ah, here we go again; another post by you laced with jabs and insults that insinuate that a rider who rides with a quiet upper body is doing "baby stuff" and "boarding like every other winter vacationer"......
> 
> I want you to come out to Mt. Hood and ride where I do on 50 degree pitches. You use your whirling dervish flailing technique and I`ll use my lower body movements and we`ll see who actually rides the terrain and who tumbles down it.....:laugh:
> 
> ...


What does you having to be a professional instructor noob instructor being able to burn me on "50 degree pitches" have to do with freestyle arguments? Anyway's if you want to go that way, unless you've improved drastically from your mogul videos, I'm pretty sure I can burn you there at least pretty easily with my "flailing" (which I have already proved is used consistently in other threads with many videos of ppl actually using upper body during riding). And if you say it's "inefficient" and won't work in a "long trail", then how does that apply to hitting a 10 foot feature?

And I disagree with your "hips to initiate the rotation and not the shoulders" assessment. Most regular boardslides have ppl swinging their arms at the right moment, to 90 the board. This equivalent to a larger / heavier mass at a larger radius from the center of rotation. It preduces more counter-torque when outstretched to impart board rotation at the opposite end. Some sports ariel analyses in stunts might call this increasing the moment on intertia of the top to produce more effective counter-reaction at the bottom...or something to those lines. If you do it a lot, you can 180-in -> 180-out. The hips are pretty much near the center of rotation so most of that movement is just causing the legs to be able to stand 90, not playing a significant role in free body board rotation in air...even a near frictionless surface like a rail where edges don't count. If anything, your upper body has to rotate MORE to counter your hip rotation.

It's like a tire-iron. When you want to open the nut, you put your hands as far away from the center to get more leverage.


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## rasmasyean (Jan 26, 2008)

Catman said:


> Here are some raw clips of front board, Back lip, Board slide, 180 on , and some up rail ( kind of like a small jump sorry not many good jump vids.) I slowed a couple of them down thinking maybe it would help critique him.


@ 0.24 it looks like a hop-on feature from this angle. He has to approach head on and hop-on. Otherwise, his center of mass will be on the left side, and that's why he slides ride off in the middle. Maybe that hop-on feature is scaring him so he doesn't want to hit it head on and just lift the tail up onto it? But this won't work, because even if he wants to do a tail-slide, his body will still have to be directly over the tail to balance himself for the length of the feature. The rail has to counter the gravity of his CoM "in-line" for the entire length. Otherwise, like in the video, his CoM will want to drop his nose while the tail is supported by the rail...and he has to bail half-way. 

Think of it this way. A balanced see-saw is perfectly horizontal. The pivot point is the rail. If you stand at the pivot point, the see-saw will still be horizontal. Walk toward on end, gravity will pull that end down and produce a torque to rotate the see-saw.


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## Smokehaus (Nov 2, 2010)




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## rasmasyean (Jan 26, 2008)

Snowolf said:


> Blah, blah, blah, more of the same from you. Whether it`s freeride or freestyle, good snowboarding is the result of good body movements and you advocate crap riding. Any decent jibber will back up what I am saying about the hips playing a major role in making small adjustments like this. When more upper body rotation is used it is a placement either anticipatory or counter, not as the driving force behind the movement.
> 
> No one short of a retard needs to flail their arms to make 90 degrees of rotation when transitioning from a 50/50 to a boardslide. A very slight twist of the hips is all it takes. Same for popping onto a box into a boardslide; you flail your arms and you will over rotate. In fact you see this with this little guy when he pops on and keeps rotating past 90 on his boardslide and you stupidly "advise" to use more upper body...
> 
> ...


From what I recall, there are many ppl who take my side in their riding as well. And many ppl do take your words as gospel try to put down what I say and dispute with futility because heck...with the amount of posts you have, you must drill a lot of indoctrination into these ppl. So I post those "me videos" by ppl "showing off" showing what I'm talking about and you and your entourage say...oh, no, that's not what's happening. It's happing like so and so. And I say, press spacebar a lot and look at the still shots. Then silience... Or, but that's not "good form". Or, "they can be so much better if"...but no one shows any proof. :dunno:

Instead, some ppl post...look how "quiet" this upper body is in this video...and it's like some dude teaching you how "carve" across the entire bumpy slope in huge turns or something to that nature. That's all great, but yeah, maybe you should show baby steps to lead up to something. But ultimately, if you're talking about some kid who obviously can go beyond normal progression, hey, don't you want to think out of the box a little? I mean, when he gets to changeups (that's like 90 to -90, right?), I'd like to see someone say "yeah, that's all in the hips".


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## BliND KiNK (Feb 22, 2010)

The most I've used my upper body during board slides is to counter balance my lower half to achieve a centered stance on the box.... no flailing involved... I've never done something flapping my arms that I couldn't do better with a quiet upper body... On the other side the longer you ride you learn little body tweaks that only you do at certain situations... and everyone has their own..


like for me my girlfriend says " You can tell when you land something wrong because you just spaz for a second if you catch an edge and then contortion your body into a 90 degree pop and ride away " 

Doesn't make it right, doesn't make it pretty, I do it because I'm more comfortable looking goofy than eating shit on icy hard pack or a sticky box.


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## rasmasyean (Jan 26, 2008)

Snowolf said:


> Oh really?????
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You mean like this?

"...doing boardslides properly, requires a STRONGLY counter-rotated body position..."





You just THINK you need just some "little hip movement", or "quick scissoring of legs" because you yourself are unaware of your subconcious movements. Even some of your own videos show this and you are just too "retarded" to realize it yourself! :cheeky4:


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## init (Mar 8, 2010)

Try starting a rotation with your upper body midway through a straight air... Kind of hard because every movement you make starts from the ground right? Even though you "initiate" a turn with your shoulders it wouldn't be possible if your feet werent aligned for it. I know this is taking it a bit far, but it's true.


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## uh oh a virus (Jan 19, 2011)

dont ever stop snowboarding. if he can actually hit a rail when he is like 5, imagine what he would be like when he is 13, or even 20!


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## Catman (Mar 16, 2008)

Here are some more clips from some different angles 





The thing is he will do and or change whatever I say, Like I say lets ride switch this run and he just says ok and takes off. So right now he is like putty and I don't want to be the guy that gives him bad advice.

So I am open to learning all that I can to try and stay ahead of his learning curve, So when he asks me for help I can give him the best information I can.


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## Catman (Mar 16, 2008)

uh oh a virus said:


> dont ever stop snowboarding. if he can actually hit a rail when he is like 5, imagine what he would be like when he is 13, or even 20!


Good advice:thumbsup: I hope he still loves it at 13


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## rasmasyean (Jan 26, 2008)

Snowolf said:


> Cayman, have you considered sending him out here to Mt. Hood in the summer to High Cascades or Windells camps? If ever I saw a kid with so much potential who could benefit so much from the good AASI certief freestyle coaches, it's this little guy!
> 
> I can get you a copy of some of the fundamental information from the AASI Movement Analisys and Freestyle manuals to help you in coaching him if you are interested.
> 
> ...


Ha! "Physics lecture from Ras"? :laugh: That's how all of this stuff works, man! Only when you get to Snowolf's level can a snowboader defy physics! 

Let's talk about "scissoring your legs". You just feel like you're "scissoring" but in reality, your feet never come near eachother like a "scissor". It's only in ppl's imagination that they are doing some magic. It's just psychological. How is that possible when your feet are rigidly attached to the board at a fixed length? All you have to do is look at those youtube videos of ppl 180ing real fast (even on flat ground) and you can see it's a board rotation with arms flailing in the opposite direction throwing and stopping the 180. And in the case of the ground one, they can rapidly edge to lock on the snow and bring their arms back to their side real fast. It's a fast movement that many ppl miss perhaps and think it's "quiet and smooth" but it's not when you look for it. And when you are AWARE of these things, that's when you can force your body to learn a lot faster than just trial and error with subconcious movements through tons of itterations. If you understand the basic physics that make it work, it won't help? I mean, you can tell that to the Olympic training team with million dollar analysis equipment and physics software!

I'll show you "scissoring" of legs. @ 00:17 -> smooth coordinated flatground 180


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## Catman (Mar 16, 2008)

Snowolf,
Are those teaching materials online?

Next summer I was thinking of coming out to Hood for a summer camp. Some of the boys that ride here go every summer.


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## rasmasyean (Jan 26, 2008)

Snowolf said:


> No, its pretty simple really...:dunno:
> 
> All you do is pull on one leg and push on the other back and forth. We did this exact "scissoring" exercise in an AASI clinic two weeks ago as part of an overall "dynamic riding theme". Just because you don`t understand doesn't mean it aint so.....:cheeky4:
> 
> ...


What you’re talking about with that heel edge is sort of like what he does @ 00:13. I used to do that all the time when learning switch. But that’s just it…HEEL EDGE. Unlike a box, on the snow you have heel edge pressure rotating your board. Specifically, your forward heel has more pressure than your rear heel when you “push-pull” so the oncoming snow throws the tip “backward”. I wouldn’t have called that “scissoring” myself, unless you’re talking about one with a really really loose screw. But whatever. I guess it’s almost like “walking” scissor motion albeit with a huge bowleg or something. :laugh: Though, I still will not believe you can do this on a box or in the air (absent heel edging OR upper body rotation to substitute) unless I see a video. It seems to defy physics.

And in the 00:17 180, I did watch closely and pressed the space bar many times. Of course he has to POSITION his shoulders to face his chest forward. It’s pretty hard to twist your legs so your toes are facing completely opposite of your chest unless you’re like a circus contortionist.  But that’s NOT what I’m talking about. If you press the space bar in the middle of the actual 180, you can see that his arms rotate CW while his board rotates CCW simultaneously. I do this all the time but mostly by popping or rapidly unwieghting because I’m not that good at fine buttering control yet. In these cases, having no edging, you can’t scissor your board without a counter-force coming from your upper body. Even if you’re like a heavy person, and your board is relatively light, you still need some small arm/shoulder motion. And of course a little 6 year old prolly needs a lot.


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## jayjames (Feb 10, 2011)

i was really enjoying reading through this thread until u two started sniping!!


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