# Another Burton vs Union thread



## RMx400 (Jun 27, 2018)

Hi guys! Newbie here and i need your expertise! Recently fell in LOVE with snowboarding after about 4 days riding in California (Mt. High). Fell so inlove that I'm already looking for a complete new set up! So far, I have my heart set on either a Rossignol Jibsaw or the Heavy Duty version which is just a bit stiffer version than the Jibsaw. I'm 5'9 sz 8.5 boot and fluctuate around 170-180 pounds. The type of riding that I really want to get into/progress in is an all mountain freestyle/park and also carving. Pretty much a bit of everything. I know that before I can get into park i need to solidify the basics but it just looks so much fun. Anyways guys I need help choosing between the Union force/atlas or Burton malavita/cartel. I originally had my heart set on the malavitas but reading through the forum people praise Union so much and at the same time bag on them for constant screw issues (the main issue thats really got me questioning their quality). I just need some sort of guidance where to take my business and why. I know that there is no unanimous victor between the companies but I really have nobody to turn to for any sort of advice as I am the only one in my set of friends thats this into snowboarding. Please tell me everything and help me choose!!! Thanks in advance and again sorry for beating the dead horse!


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## SlvrDragon50 (Mar 25, 2017)

RMx400 said:


> Hi guys! Newbie here and i need your expertise! Recently fell in LOVE with snowboarding after about 4 days riding in California (Mt. High). Fell so inlove that I'm already looking for a complete new set up! So far, I have my heart set on either a Rossignol Jibsaw or the Heavy Duty version which is just a bit stiffer version than the Jibsaw. I'm 5'9 sz 8.5 boot and fluctuate around 170-180 pounds. The type of riding that I really want to get into/progress in is an all mountain freestyle/park and also carving. Pretty much a bit of everything. I know that before I can get into park i need to solidify the basics but it just looks so much fun. Anyways guys I need help choosing between the Union force/atlas or Burton malavita/cartel. I originally had my heart set on the malavitas but reading through the forum people praise Union so much and at the same time bag on them for constant screw issues (the main issue thats really got me questioning their quality). I just need some sort of guidance where to take my business and why. I know that there is no unanimous victor between the companies but I really have nobody to turn to for any sort of advice as I am the only one in my set of friends thats this into snowboarding. Please tell me everything and help me choose!!! Thanks in advance and again sorry for beating the dead horse!


You're really gonna have fanboys of both. And to be honest, both are going to work just fine, especially as a beginner where you're not really going to notice any differences. I'd just look for the best deal. Nivek has some in this for sale section. Both have good CS so if anything were to break, you shouldn't have a problem getting replacement parts.

I use Rome Katanas that I'm happy with. Probably going to try some Now Drive bindings next.


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## Rip154 (Sep 23, 2017)

Check all 4 and pick the color that matches your outfit best, you are already looking at the top shelf of quality bindings so won't be a problem.


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## Stoned_Ocelot (Jun 3, 2018)

Honestly at your level you're looking at some dank bindings but I agree with the other posters that it doesn't matter too much. I dig the look of the Malavitas and Cartels but can't say I'm familiar the Union bindings. 

If you wanna do something all-mountain-freestyle just get lightweight and something with a bit of padding on the sole. Some bindings have almost none while others have foam or other material that will make landing feel a lot better.


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## RMx400 (Jun 27, 2018)

thanks guys for the replies! True im probably too inexperienced to even notice a difference. I just love the straps on the malavitas, being the one piece molded type, it just seems to be very comfortable and right up my alley. Would you guys know which out of the 4 have the comfiest base plate? And do you guys know if malavitas come with canted foot beds? I do tend to have some pretty weak knees after years of powerlifting and heavy squats. They can get quite tender after a while of activity. Thanks again!


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## RMx400 (Jun 27, 2018)

Stoned_Ocelot said:


> Honestly at your level you're looking at some dank bindings but I agree with the other posters that it doesn't matter too much. I dig the look of the Malavitas and Cartels but can't say I'm familiar the Union bindings.
> 
> If you wanna do something all-mountain-freestyle just get lightweight and something with a bit of padding on the sole. Some bindings have almost none while others have foam or other material that will make landing feel a lot better.


which out of the 4 i mentioned have the best padding?


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## Nivek (Jan 24, 2008)

Vitas. Owned, would own again. 

Also, definitely not the HD for you. Standard Jibsaw will be plenty of board.


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## jywu86 (Jan 16, 2012)

Nivek said:


> Vitas. Owned, would own again.
> 
> Also, definitely not the HD for you. Standard Jibsaw will be plenty of board.


Another vote for Vitas. Most comfortable, reliable, and versatile binding I've ever owned. The two issues that come across Vitas for me are: 1. Toe Strap sometimes comes loose. Sort of an awkward fit around the toe area. (I have Burton Photon boots, so this shouldn't be a problem)... 2. The new dual sided ladders cause the ratchet to not tighten easily. It always feels like I have at least 1/2 or one click left but the ratchets don't seem to click that well.

I've also tried Unions and you will not have these issues with Unions. Ratchets are down rock solid and toe strap fits really well over most boots. But, I'd still take the Vitas over most Unions because of the comfort of the binding (ankle strap feels like there's nothing there but still holds really well. The plastic material in the Vitas seem to flex better than Unions. Union highbacks for me are a little too soft and Vitas feel perfect.) 

Best of luck, when you get better, head up to bear mountain or even mammoth. The open terrain and snow quality is many times better than Mountain High.


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## RMx400 (Jun 27, 2018)

Nivek said:


> Vitas. Owned, would own again.
> 
> Also, definitely not the HD for you. Standard Jibsaw will be plenty of board.


thanks man! what do you think about the jibsaw vs a bataleon fun kink or evil twin?


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## RMx400 (Jun 27, 2018)

jywu86 said:


> Best of luck, when you get better, head up to bear mountain or even mammoth. The open terrain and snow quality is many times better than Mountain High.


thanks man! appreciate it! actually my first time riding was at big bear but spent the whole day on the bunnies trying to get a hang of this damn thing! I only live an hour away from Mt. high so ill be there mostly...for now...and about 45 mins away from Mt Baldy and Waterman however those dont open unless it really snows snows.


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## Flavor_James86 (Jun 6, 2018)

SlvrDragon50 said:


> You're really gonna have fanboys of both. And to be honest, both are going to work just fine, especially as a beginner where you're not really going to notice any differences. I'd just look for the best deal. Nivek has some in this for sale section. Both have good CS so if anything were to break, you shouldn't have a problem getting replacement parts.
> 
> I use Rome Katanas that I'm happy with. Probably going to try some Now Drive bindings next.


Speaking of fan boys.. I second the Rome suggestion. I bought some Rome United last season just to have something that strapped me to my board but I picked up some D.O.Ds at Evo a couple weeks ago for a pretty good deal. I haven't ridden them yet but I spent a bit of time setting them up to fit. Then strapped in and jumped around a bit in the living room. I can tell they are going to be quality! They have a molded ankle strap and canted footbeds as well. So they check those boxes on your list ?.


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## drblast (Feb 28, 2017)

Another vote for Vitas because they're a great all-around binding with really no glaring weakness, although you really can't go wrong with anything you mentioned or Rome.

Union Forces I've ridden seem to not be as shock-absorbent as the Atlas or anything from Burton. Rome bindings are slightly heavier than most but they make up for it by being awesome in every other way.


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## RMx400 (Jun 27, 2018)

drblast said:


> Another vote for Vitas because they're a great all-around binding with really no glaring weakness, although you really can't go wrong with anything you mentioned or Rome.
> 
> Union Forces I've ridden seem to not be as shock-absorbent as the Atlas or anything from Burton. Rome bindings are slightly heavier than most but they make up for it by being awesome in every other way.


was thinking of going the union/burton route cus of customer service and my local shop (Val Surf) carries them so i assume if i had any issues they would be able to help. Thanks! i was defintely looking into Rome, but some say their CS isnt that great?? I do like the Rome aesthetics though, quite a good looking binding!


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## SlvrDragon50 (Mar 25, 2017)

RMx400 said:


> was thinking of going the union/burton route cus of customer service and my local shop (Val Surf) carries them so i assume if i had any issues they would be able to help. Thanks! i was defintely looking into Rome, but some say their CS isnt that great?? I do like the Rome aesthetics though, quite a good looking binding!


I've had absolutely no problems with Rome CS. They sent me a pair of toe straps as soon as I changed the urgency of my ticket.

FYI, eBay has 20% off on Backcountry's store so you can get some Rome DODs for $140 and a few others as well.


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## tonymontana (Dec 10, 2016)

Rome bindings are a great option that may be more affordable. If you're set on those two brands, I would go vitas. Some people have issues being in between binding sizes with Burton. Other than that they should be a solid choice.

Val Surf used to be my local board shop for everything skate and snow related. I sure do miss that place...dont miss the lack of snow in SoCal though lol.

You in the SFV?


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## Nivek (Jan 24, 2008)

Honestly I'd probably take D.O.D.s or Katanas (2019) over any Union or Burton. 

That said, I'd really like to give a full season to a set of Falcors. Some real long term testing. See if they hold up.


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## SlvrDragon50 (Mar 25, 2017)

Nivek said:


> Honestly I'd probably take D.O.D.s or Katanas (2019) over any Union or Burton.
> 
> That said, I'd really like to give a full season to a set of Falcors. Some real long term testing. See if they hold up.


Yea, I get my Falcors tomorrow. Really hoping that the carbon highbacks don't break since it looks like they aren't covered under the lifetime warranty? The pricepoint on DODs were so hard to resist. I thought the 2019 Katanas were the same as the previous generation? Are there any changes?


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## RMx400 (Jun 27, 2018)

tonymontana said:


> Rome bindings are a great option that may be more affordable. If you're set on those two brands, I would go vitas. Some people have issues being in between binding sizes with Burton. Other than that they should be a solid choice.
> 
> Val Surf used to be my local board shop for everything skate and snow related. I sure do miss that place...dont miss the lack of snow in SoCal though lol.
> 
> You in the SFV?


Yup! the 818. Not too familiar with snow here in socal but this season was pretty lame. But i remember going up to the mountain 2016-17 and it was dumping like crazy. Ironically enough, i wasnt into riding yet during that time. One of my biggest regrets was not starting that season.


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## RMx400 (Jun 27, 2018)

Nivek said:


> Honestly I'd probably take D.O.D.s or Katanas (2019) over any Union or Burton.
> 
> That said, I'd really like to give a full season to a set of Falcors. Some real long term testing. See if they hold up.


Sucks being such a noobie. I have no experience so cant really compare to anything but rely on reviews from other people. Its so easy to be turned off by a brand seeing even just one bad review. So far ive seen a few poor reviews on both katana and dod on some malfunctions but on the contrast some really good ones too. Same with union on screw issues. However, I’ve seen nothing but good reviews on vitas.

I honestly wanted to go with some unions cus of the all white color preference i had but that screw issue is so sketch. Do you know if thats fixed on bindings 2018 and up? 

Any one here ridden the arbor hemlocks before? the 2019 version looks pretty sweet with a similar looking ankle strap to vitas.


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## tonymontana (Dec 10, 2016)

I still have my 818 phone number. The SFV will always be home. Take the time to go down to bear and summit or up to mammoth. Worth the trip.


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## SlvrDragon50 (Mar 25, 2017)

RMx400 said:


> Sucks being such a noobie. I have no experience so cant really compare to anything but rely on reviews from other people. Its so easy to be turned off by a brand seeing even just one bad review. So far ive seen a few poor reviews on both katana and dod on some malfunctions but on the contrast some really good ones too. Same with union on screw issues. However, I’ve seen nothing but good reviews on vitas.
> 
> I honestly wanted to go with some unions cus of the all white color preference i had but that screw issue is so sketch. Do you know if thats fixed on bindings 2018 and up?
> 
> Any one here ridden the arbor hemlocks before? the 2019 version looks pretty sweet with a similar looking ankle strap to vitas.


I wouldn't waste your money on 2019s. Get older bindings. Most of the poor Katana reviews came from the 2016 generation, and the 2017 resolved the strap issues. Nivek is by far the most experienced reviewer in the industry and you really can't go wrong with any of his suggestions. The only reason why I went for the Union Falcor over the DOD was because he suggested it otherwise I would have passed on it.


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## RMx400 (Jun 27, 2018)

SlvrDragon50 said:


> I wouldn't waste your money on 2019s. Get older bindings. Most of the poor Katana reviews came from the 2016 generation, and the 2017 resolved the strap issues. Nivek is by far the most experienced reviewer in the industry and you really can't go wrong with any of his suggestions. The only reason why I went for the Union Falcor over the DOD was because he suggested it otherwise I would have passed on it.


Giving Rome a serious look right now... Could use the extra cash id be saving and put into something else if i opt for them over the vitas... What would be better for a beginner? DODs or Katana? The toe straps dont stretch over time do they? They seem to be elastic-y, something that might lose reslience over time? 

And as for Nivek, yeah i will definitely take his word over reviews on online shops haha. Seriously considering Rome now... would just appreciate an update on things theyve improved on for 2019...


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## RMx400 (Jun 27, 2018)

tonymontana said:


> I still have my 818 phone number. The SFV will always be home. Take the time to go down to bear and summit or up to mammoth. Worth the trip.


yeah brother ?? im honestly sick of the valley but i know thay once i leave, i will miss this place. Ive been up to big bear actually, it was the first time i got the chance to ride. Definitely going to plan to go back up once im better to get the full experience! thanks man!


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## SlvrDragon50 (Mar 25, 2017)

RMx400 said:


> Giving Rome a serious look right now... Could use the extra cash id be saving and put into something else if i opt for them over the vitas... What would be better for a beginner? DODs or Katana? The toe straps dont stretch over time do they? They seem to be elastic-y, something that might lose reslience over time?
> 
> And as for Nivek, yeah i will definitely take his word over reviews on online shops haha. Seriously considering Rome now... would just appreciate an update on things theyve improved on for 2019...


I went with Rome Katanas. The toe straps don't stretch though I did have some slight tearing on one (after maybe 20 days of riding). That might have been caused by me resting my board's sharp edge on the toe strap though. That's why I asked Rome to send me an extra pair as a precaution. The rubbery material is awesome for holding your boot in and forming to all boot shapes. Both the DOD and Katana are going to be great for beginners (though I've never used the DOD). I went with the Katana because of all the customization but I ended up never changing it from the stiffest settings. Maybe I just got lucky with really comfortable settings off the bat.

Here's a snippet from the 2019 Rome catalog I found:








Go to page 20-21 (https://issuu.com/bane4/docs/rome19)

Looks like it's not going to be as stiff as the older generation? It has a fiberglass highback instead of the aluminum. Also looks like it shed some weight. The DOD will certainly be heavier than the Katana. The DOD is certainly a lot more popular than the Katana among pro riders so that was another reason why I was considering the DOD for my second bindings.


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## RMx400 (Jun 27, 2018)

How was the customer service for Rome? Just read two reviews off of evo saying that the service they recieved was pretty poor (for 2018 Katanas)

The more and more i look at other bindings, the more I question if the vitas are really the right choice... Sooooooo difficult!


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## SlvrDragon50 (Mar 25, 2017)

RMx400 said:


> How was the customer service for Rome? Just read two reviews off of evo saying that the service they recieved was pretty poor (for 2018 Katanas)
> 
> The more and more i look at other bindings, the more I question if the vitas are really the right choice... Sooooooo difficult!


One of the guys was from Europe IIRC (he complained a lot here too) so it isn't a good review. I had no problems getting my straps as soon as I changed my ticket priority to urgent. I don't think there's really ever a right choice. There's so many bindings and boards and therefore even more combinations (don't forget about boots too). I splurged on my bindings (think I paid nearly $180-220 for my Katanas, can't remember). In retrospect, I think I would have been just fine on DODs or even Boss 390s when learning. You can't go wrong with Vitas or Cartels, but Burton bindings just command a premium pricing that I think Rome, Now, and other companies are a better choice for a beginner who won't really even notice a difference.

Also, don't forget that for every bad review there is, there's going to be like 10 other good reviews, but no one posts positive reviews, only bad ones.


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## RMx400 (Jun 27, 2018)

SlvrDragon50 said:


> One of the guys was from Europe IIRC (he complained a lot here too) so it isn't a good review. I had no problems getting my straps as soon as I changed my ticket priority to urgent. I don't think there's really ever a right choice. There's so many bindings and boards and therefore even more combinations (don't forget about boots too). I splurged on my bindings (think I paid nearly $180-220 for my Katanas, can't remember). In retrospect, I think I would have been just fine on DODs or even Boss 390s when learning. You can't go wrong with Vitas or Cartels, but Burton bindings just command a premium pricing that I think Rome, Now, and other companies are a better choice for a beginner who won't really even notice a difference.
> 
> Also, don't forget that for every bad review there is, there's going to be like 10 other good reviews, but no one posts positive reviews, only bad ones.


You make a great point. No matter what chances are i wont even really know a difference. Probably going to snag whatever is in stock when the time to purchase comes or what my local store has to offer for a good deal. Thanks for the input man ill probably narrow it down to DODs or Vitas for now.
Would having a Vans boot sway the decision in any way? Thats what i currently have, some Aura Boas. And can Rome take a beating? I imagine im going to run whatever binding i get into the ground, being a beginner and all, i can only imagine how many falls, bangs, dings and scrapes the binders will undergo over time.


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## SlvrDragon50 (Mar 25, 2017)

RMx400 said:


> You make a great point. No matter what chances are i wont even really know a difference. Probably going to snag whatever is in stock when the time to purchase comes or what my local store has to offer for a good deal. Thanks for the input man ill probably narrow it down to DODs or Vitas for now.
> Would having a Vans boot sway the decision in any way? Thats what i currently have, some Aura Boas. And can Rome take a beating? I imagine im going to run whatever binding i get into the ground, being a beginner and all, i can only imagine how many falls, bangs, dings and scrapes the binders will undergo over time.


Rome DODs are the bomb proof bindings to get. Or Targas (basically same binding, different stiffness). Another reason why I was considering DODs. I mentioned boots because boots affect the feel not so much as swaying your decision. Board + binding combination does matter more with trying to match flexes which is why I like to ask Kevin's opinion before making any purchases.

I would really suggest grabbing the DODs off of Backcountry on eBay since they're so heavily discounted and you get an additional 20% off. $140 for DODs is an absolute steal!


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## Nivek (Jan 24, 2008)

Katanas are similar weight to this year but the highback is stiffer. The Katana was good before, now its better. The slightly stiffer highback just makes it sit in a much better position in their line and on shop walls. To me it rode like a fancy 390. Now, stiffness wise, it sits between the Targa and D.O.D.

Since you asked about Arbor, the 2019 Cypress is actually my second pick for all mountain bindings, behind the Katana. The new ankle strap is by far my favorite ankle strap ever. I felt like they hit the balance between comfort and support better than anything else. And the rest of the binding was already pretty damn good, so adding that new strap made it a top pick for me.


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## RMx400 (Jun 27, 2018)

Nivek said:


> Katanas are similar weight to this year but the highback is stiffer. The Katana was good before, now its better. The slightly stiffer highback just makes it sit in a much better position in their line and on shop walls. To me it rode like a fancy 390. Now, stiffness wise, it sits between the Targa and D.O.D.
> 
> Since you asked about Arbor, the 2019 Cypress is actually my second pick for all mountain bindings, behind the Katana. The new ankle strap is by far my favorite ankle strap ever. I felt like they hit the balance between comfort and support better than anything else. And the rest of the binding was already pretty damn good, so adding that new strap made it a top pick for me.


Just took a look at the cypress and man, the colorways are sick as fuck but for $250 though i might just bet on the tried and true Vitas. For now im pretty much stuck between vitas and katanas, havent seen the 2019’s on preorder or anything yet so i cant really tell. Maybe those cypress too but i seen its considered a “stiff” binding reccomended for intermediate to expert riders?‍♂??‍♂??‍♂?


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## SlvrDragon50 (Mar 25, 2017)

Nivek said:


> Katanas are similar weight to this year but the highback is stiffer. The Katana was good before, now its better. The slightly stiffer highback just makes it sit in a much better position in their line and on shop walls. To me it rode like a fancy 390. Now, stiffness wise, it sits between the Targa and D.O.D.
> 
> Since you asked about Arbor, the 2019 Cypress is actually my second pick for all mountain bindings, behind the Katana. The new ankle strap is by far my favorite ankle strap ever. I felt like they hit the balance between comfort and support better than anything else. And the rest of the binding was already pretty damn good, so adding that new strap made it a top pick for me.


Oh wow, if the Katana is stiffer then that sounds awesome. That was one thing I actually wanted out of my Katanas.


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## SlvrDragon50 (Mar 25, 2017)

RMx400 said:


> Just took a look at the cypress and man, the colorways are sick as fuck but for $250 though i might just bet on the tried and true Vitas. For now im pretty much stuck between vitas and katanas, havent seen the 2019’s on preorder or anything yet so i cant really tell. Maybe those cypress too but i seen its considered a “stiff” binding reccomended for intermediate to expert riders?‍♂??‍♂??‍♂?


I would not worry about what is considered "intermediate" or "expert". A lot of starting boards are considered intermediate or expert and are just fine to start off on.


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## RMx400 (Jun 27, 2018)

Thanks man. Im reaaaaaaally considering katanas over vitas im like 70/30 right now respectivly. Hoping that my local shop will have both so I can compare them in person ?


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## SlvrDragon50 (Mar 25, 2017)

RMx400 said:


> Thanks man. Im reaaaaaaally considering katanas over vitas im like 70/30 right now respectivly. Hoping that my local shop will have both so I can compare them in person ?


Are you trying to get the 2019 models? To be honest, unless you get to ride them, handling them in person won't really reveal much. I'd take the savings on an older binding and put it towards lift passes.


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## RMx400 (Jun 27, 2018)

SlvrDragon50 said:


> Are you trying to get the 2019 models? To be honest, unless you get to ride them, handling them in person won't really reveal much. I'd take the savings on an older binding and put it towards lift passes.


nope! if i can get my hands on a 2018 model ill definitely snag them. For you, youd take the Katanas over the vitas?? I tried looking at the catalog you sent me a few posts ahead couldnt quiet make it out but any significant differences from ‘18 to ‘19?


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## SlvrDragon50 (Mar 25, 2017)

RMx400 said:


> nope! if i can get my hands on a 2018 model ill definitely snag them. For you, youd take the Katanas over the vitas?? I tried looking at the catalog you sent me a few posts ahead couldnt quiet make it out but any significant differences from ‘18 to ‘19?


The main thing would be the highback stiffness that Kevin noted. While I do want a stiffer highback now, that is because my boots are super soft (Burton Ruler Wides), but I certainly didn't really care when I was first learning. I was falling left and right.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Rome-Katan...4c:m:m38UoADU6Tu8FMeyRaysxDg&var=552302996717

Use PARTYINUSA, and you get 20% off and you'll get the bindings for about $160ish.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Rome-D-O-D-Snowboard-Binding-Mens-/253203420750?var=&hash=item8097d29df8

Those DODs are about $140ish.


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## RMx400 (Jun 27, 2018)

Thanks for the plug but as of now they dont have my size M/L. Definitely will be on the lookout for the months to come. How are snowboarding gear during the months of october/sept? Do the sales disappear?


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## SlvrDragon50 (Mar 25, 2017)

RMx400 said:


> Thanks for the plug but as of now they dont have my size M/L. Definitely will be on the lookout for the months to come. How are snowboarding gear during the months of october/sept? Do the sales disappear?


Are you absolutely sure you're a size 8.5? A lot of people oversize their first boots. Sales on previous year items will continue, but if you can't get the sizing now, you're not going to get the sizing you want in October as they stop production a long time ago. They have the DODs in your size.


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## ek9max (Apr 8, 2013)

Both are very good. I think overall the Burton is a bit better thought out with highback rotation and a bit more of a premium feel. 

Also reflex give you insane true board flex even when compared to union mini disks. I just put a new union strata on my right foot and Burton Cartel reflex on my left. 

This wasn't on the hill but in my garage. And you can instantly tell the difference.

On the hill the burtons have more foot padding and ankle straps feel more comfy. 

If you're ok with the limited stance width options on the Burton reflex system. I'd go with the new cartels with the hammock strap 2.0 and new gettagrip toe cap. 

Really good and inexpensive binding.


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