# People need to learn to really carve.



## david_z

abadidol said:


> So I guess what I'm saying is lets discuss the lost art of the carve and see if we can flesh out why so few do it.


Same reason why so few skiers know how to properly plant their poles and execute perfect parallel turns? 

The majority of skiers/boarders simply aren't avid or particularly interested in perfect technique. They might ski/ride a dozen days a year (probably less) and are happy just to get out & go down the hill without falling.


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## mbesp

i like to lay into some carves every now and then. though i really have no idea if im doing it "right"


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## baconzoo

I couldn't agree more that power on edge is where it's at.

30* 15* soft boots, all edge lock turns to white room power scrubs.


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## danielle

Well good for you. Maybe people want to just ride and have fun, if they learn the perfect carve, well good for them.


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## Toecutter

If there's a big powder dump I look for interesting lines in the trees, big open bowls and glades, and natural features to boost off of. If there's no new snow and it's a groomer day I grab skis instead of the board. Spending the day perfecting my snowboard carve just seems so...uninteresting. I'll lay down a few carves here and there to get from one stash to the next, but I don't really want to make that the main attraction.

The local scholastic ski team practices banging gates during the week but it just seems so old school compared to the interesting things people are doing in the terrain park. Go fast-fast-fast then across the finish line. Ho hum. It's like watching people mogul skiing -- pretty impressive back in 1975 but nowadays the acrobatics in the park are much more interesting.


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## MistahTaki

not that people don't try to perfect their carving, they can't carve. period. Most people i see on the hill can only skid. I wonder why people that have been riding 10 times longer than me can't even carve.


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## Mooz

I ride for me and me only. I spent the time to learn perfect carves and practiced them because I enjoy it. I couldn't possible care less about how someone else rides. If they're having fun I say rock on and keep at it.

Judge less, ride more.


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## BliND KiNK

when I carve I get the powder stance and mainly sit on my back leg.. but I drop low, I don't care if it's proper technique.. I leave a straight edge line in the snow and I burn like a rocket... so meh.. I can carve but I do it my way.


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## jjermzz

Is carving an art? or a Skill. I mean if its art then "my way" is carving. Now if its a skill, we talking about something else. This is my first year riding and I can have my lines look like that, just not the whole way down. I skid on some turns to slow down a bit. I don't feel comfortable bombing down the mountain especially on the weekends.


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## baconzoo

the art is conditioning your muscles to have a broad range of motion. If you can carve all the way down to the point that your knees are in your chest, then you are at an apex, and then having the strength to explode into a new turn, only to rinse and repeat, that's a skill...

To each their own, YES. But I like to max out on mine.


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## abadidol

Mooz said:


> I ride for me and me only. I spent the time to learn perfect carves and practiced them because I enjoy it. I couldn't possible care less about how someone else rides. If they're having fun I say rock on and keep at it.
> 
> Judge less, ride more.


It's not about judging, i'm all for people just having fun, but it just seems like part of the skill set that has been mostly lost, it's just a part of riding I dont see much and its part of the fundamentals. 

baconzoo: Nice turns.

Toecutter: Im not really talking about speed, more technique. But racing helps teach you those. 
And yes, when good carving is to be had a nice pair of race skis is GREAT!
Also its not really about perfecting the carve, its just doing it properly.
yup, good/interesting lines in the trees are my favorite part of riding, just not what most people en up doing the majority of th time.

jjermzz: yeah its a bit both art and skill, do it your own way but lets at least hold an edge.

BliND KiNK: If you getting it done thats all that matters.

danielle: Have fun, ride well, get better, all part of the progression. Carving should be part of that.

david_z: True, but lots of good rider who are dedicated can't carve.


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## slyder

I have no coaching and this is the beginning of my 2nd year. I don't really know the proper form or want to pay to be taught carving. This may be the case for many others as well. 
I have been trying all aspects of riding:
Switch all day
Park
Jumps
groomers buttering, not so good at
carving

I was carving, I think. I was getting real deep grooves on my turns. I could only look from over my toe-side turn shoulder.
This was fun and took a fair amount of effort. 
I was doing this to add to my skill set but it was also fun. I usually ride in any manner like many have stated. Just because it's what I wanted to do or try.

I think most people, at least near me, don't carve because our hills are so small and crowded it's hard. As for other areas can't really say. Also when we ride in a group or with friends it's more about just riding, chatting and spraying the guy or my kid that washed out :laugh:


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## Grizz

MistahTaki said:


> not that people don't try to perfect their carving, they can't carve.


Most people don't even understand what the meaning of "carve" is. Around here it's frequently used when people are trying to say they link turns.


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## DiamondCarver

I've been trying all season with different techniques and reading up and watching vids but it just won't happen. I always skid quite a bit. I'd probably say i'm at the skarving level, and i'm cool with that. As long as i'm on the hill i'm happy.


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## basso4735

I dunno, I am loving learning how to carve. Its such a rush locking onto that toe edge and picking up a ton of speed. Still trying to get heel sides that nice though.


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## wrathfuldeity

I was riding with an instructor kid a couple weeks ago, who was practicing his carving...really smooth and flowing despite the packed chopped terrain...he was doing it more for form than speed; and it looked alot more efficient than my hack hang on for dear life riding. I'd like to learn to carve better...perhaps it would be easier on my geriatric body.


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## AAA

Carve, carve, carve, carve, carve...

YouTube - Carving Clips


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## nars1l

wrathfuldeity said:


> I was riding with an instructor kid a couple weeks ago, who was practicing his carving...really smooth and flowing despite the packed chopped terrain...he was doing it more for form than speed; and it looked alot more efficient than my hack hang on for dear life riding. I'd like to learn to carve better...perhaps it would be easier on my geriatric body.


Agreed. I don't know how some people can look so smooth going through chunky terrain, when I feel like I'm on an ATV going over a volcanic desert. "hack hang on for dear life" is exactly it. Though maybe I just need to bend my knees more


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## thetraveler

it is a slightly different game carving with a wide ducked stance, which is what a lot of people on the hill are rocking these days - the laws of physics and ergonomics are not really on your side in this particular case...


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## init

I really don't see the fun in carving. I mean, if there's *nothing* else to do on the mountain, I will carve some. But to me, it's the least fun aspect of snowboarding. It was one of the first things I learned when I started snowboarding, and it surprises me to see all this talk about carving being so fun and important to learn


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## kysnowboarder

Carving is a blast in the powder. Like others have said on not as much fun on hard pack..

I mostly ride on hard pack/ice, so I am not a very good carver. Last year when I went to telluride, the instructor taught me how to carve in powder and it was awesome, I try it on hard pack, and the fun factor drops dramatically.


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## danielle

abadidol said:


> danielle: Have fun, ride well, get better, all part of the progression. Carving should be part of that. .


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## KIRKRIDER

Love powder....and love also carving with steep angles on groomers....that Arbor pushes you out of a turn like a slingshot.


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## thetraveler

Snowolf said:


> Completely agree. I can carve just fine and that is what I do on firm groomers, but I would rather be off the groomers playing in the steeps, chutes, trees etc and there I am using dynamic skidded turns.





init said:


> I really don't see the fun in carving. I mean, if there's *nothing* else to do on the mountain, I will carve some. But to me, it's the least fun aspect of snowboarding. It was one of the first things I learned when I started snowboarding, and it surprises me to see all this talk about carving being so fun and important to learn


you both make good points but the real question is how often are the conditions on the mountain such that you can go off-piste to do all the really fun stuff? i've been up on the mountain for two weeks and we haven't had a single fresh snow - there's only so much park a human can digest so, what else to do in that situation?


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## kysnowboarder

Snowolf said:


> Carving is not a powder turn anyway. In powder, you are actually in a skidded turn. It takes firm snow to hold an edge.



We'll maybe I may not know what carving is :laugh:


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## init

thetraveler said:


> you both make good points but the real question is how often are the conditions on the mountain such that you can go off-piste to do all the really fun stuff? i've been up on the mountain for two weeks and we haven't had a single fresh snow - there's only so much park a human can digest so, what else to do in that situation?


I know what you mean. If i get tired of the park (the parks are terrible in my area) and there is no pow, trees, drops or anything else fun to do, I usually end up working on some buttering techniques. I rarely spend more than 5 minutes carving on groomers :dunno:


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## john doe

I love me some carving but very rarely are conditions such that I can get some good practice. Most of the time if I try to put my edge too deep I hit solid ice and wash out. On days when the park sucks I'll do speed runs, work on side hit, or work on switch riding.


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## AAA

IMO, anyone who thinks carving is boring probably ISN'T actually carving or ISN'T getting the board high on edge, dropping the hammer, and railing hard enough to experience G-force. If you reach the bottom of the run and aren't sucking wind with you're quads on fire, then you're not doing something right.  :laugh:

It seems like more than half of the snowboarders I run into mistake the term carving for any kind of turning down the hill. :dunno: A few are getting close, making skidded C's, but just can't or won't commit to setting an edge. On any given day, I might see but a very small handful actually carving down the hill. Maybe one or two will stand out, riding hard and doing it well. :thumbsup:

In the east, your terrain options generally fall into one of three categories of groom, mogul riddled steeps, or the triage park. Powder and off-piste opportunities for the most part don't exist. I usually enjoy a few mogul runs, but don't care at all to enter the junkyard, and definitely prefer freecarving the groom. Fast, demanding, exhilerating. It imparts an ear to ear smile that lasts till the next day.


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## kls

Snowolf said:


> Don`t make assumptions. I definitely do know how to carve and fully get the G force thing. It might be hard for a Euro carver purist (I use that term based on your disdainful description of the terrain park and its riders) to understand, but there are other types of riding that I do prefer given the opportunity....
> 
> My "objection" to the tone of the original post is that there is an attitude that there is only one "right" way to snowboard. As long as people are out there having fun and riding in control, who the hell cares how they are doing it....:dunno:
> 
> I see people riding "poorly" by pushing their back foot around and riding with the "mystery date" all of the time, but unless someone asks me to teach them, I don`t go around telling people they are riding wrong...not my business. If someone is not Euro carving, why care?
> 
> This is not meant as an insult or slam to the hard core carvers out there, but to me and my taste, I think it looks and feels kind of dorky. I think the fluid, loose and floaty rider, buttering, popping 1`s and 3`s off natural hits and jibbing logs just looks more stylish to me personally. Like I said, not a slam against you guys, its just not my preference and not something I think looks that stylish; its like watching a ski racer hitting gates...just not my thing. Snowboarding is a broad enough sport that there is room for all styles of riding and I think it is wrong for one type of rider to criticize another style of riding and claim some form of superiority.


Snowolf FTW :thumbsup:

To each their own. As long as everyone is having fun and not out of control, who cares how they're having fun?


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## Extremo

I don't need to carve because I literally never leave the park. My turns pretty much amount to set up turns into a jump. I have a Nitro Misfit all tuned up for all mtn because I wanted to check it out and it was boring...I took 3 runs on it and grabbed my park board and headed straight to the park...I may never leave again.


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## init

AAA said:


> IMO, anyone who thinks carving is boring probably ISN'T actually carving or ISN'T getting the board high on edge, dropping the hammer, and railing hard enough to experience G-force. If you reach the bottom of the run and aren't sucking wind with you're quads on fire, then you're not doing something right.  :laugh:
> 
> It seems like more than half of the snowboarders I run into mistake the term carving for any kind of turning down the hill. :dunno: A few are getting close, making skidded C's, but just can't or won't commit to setting an edge. On any given day, I might see but a very small handful actually carving down the hill. Maybe one or two will stand out, riding hard and doing it well. :thumbsup:
> 
> In the east, your terrain options generally fall into one of three categories of groom, mogul riddled steeps, or the triage park. Powder and off-piste opportunities for the most part don't exist. I usually enjoy a few mogul runs, but don't care at all to enter the junkyard, and definitely prefer freecarving the groom. Fast, demanding, exhilerating. It imparts an ear to ear smile that lasts till the next day.


To each their own. As long as it leaves a big grin stuck on your face, right?


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## Toecutter

AAA said:


> IMO, anyone who thinks carving is boring probably ISN'T actually carving or ISN'T getting the board high on edge, dropping the hammer, and railing hard enough to experience G-force.


You're wrong.


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## AAA

Snowwolf, We've got to get you on plates. Your posts seem knowledgeable and I'm sure you're up to it and would kill it. I'd love to see that.  No need to EC either, if you don't want. I consider myself just a freecarver, but throw in an EC or two when it feels right. It slows you down too much except on steep runs.

I don't see any issue with the original post, or have disdain for the park or any riders, despite how I nickname it. I'm afraid I can't take credit for one of them, which came from a ski patrolman, who I rode the chair with. He caught me off guard and caused a chuckle when he responded into his radio that he was heading over to the "triage park". "Junkyard" is mine, though. Metal stuff littering a pristine white slope...well, you've got to admit...  Nothing wrong with it, just not my thing. In fact, I love the park. It draws and concentrates half the snowboarders on one trail at any given time. Really opens up the rest of the mountain. 

But seriously, like seeing only a handful of good carvers on the mountain, I also only see a handful of good park riders. Some of that rare backflippy stuff looks intense.  I think the original post just poses a simple question. Why so little carving with so much skidding? (Park / jibbing being irrelevant.) Not that the poster (or myself) cares about how someone rides. The point of course is to just have fun. I only take exceptions when I see an out-of-control straightliner or someone cutting things intentionally too close. You know the ones. All their weight on their back foot, arms flailing, zero control...or the ones who clearly see someone in their path, but intentionally wait until the last second to turn just to be a jerk and throw snow or cause a scare. Yeah, real "steezy", and sooner or later going to get someone hurt. But back on track, the scene does beg the question, where is this fundemental skill set? The same could be said to a point about your hoards of tail slashers hacking their way down vs. more advanced skidding even. But carving really seems to be in a vacuum sometimes, hence I suppose the question.


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## Tachypsychia

I noticed recently that I was just doing skidded turns. I go down black diamonds and skid to shave speed instead of riding the edges. I decided to bite the bullet and going heelside just acted like I was sitting down in a chair and I bet I looked like the bikes on Tron where they cut 90* turns. I ended up washing out because I was at the edge of the run and was about to run into the trees, but it was amazing.


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## abadidol

AAA said:


> But seriously, like seeing only a handful of good carvers on the mountain, I also only see a handful of good park riders. Some of that rare backflippy stuff looks intense.  I think the original post just poses a simple question. Why so little carving with so much skidding? (Park / jibbing being irrelevant.) Not that the poster (or myself) cares about how someone rides. The point of course is to just have fun. I only take exceptions when I see an out-of-control straightliner or someone cutting things intentionally too close. You know the ones. All their weight on their back foot, arms flailing, zero control...or the ones who clearly see someone in their path, but intentionally wait until the last second to turn just to be a jerk and throw snow or cause a scare. Yeah, real "steezy", and sooner or later going to get someone hurt. But back on track, the scene does beg the question, where is this fundemental skill set? The same could be said to a point about your hoards of tail slashers hacking their way down vs. more advanced skidding even. But carving really seems to be in a vacuum sometimes, hence I suppose the question.


AAA you understood my point/question perfectly, I'm not knocking park riders in any way, I ride park all the time, and as snowwolf aptly stated there is an entire part of riding where skidding your turns is also an essential tool, but pretty much any decent rider can do that, very few decent riders can carve.

Also I'm not even referring to the hardbooters and straight carvers out there, I do my carving with a symmetrical duck stance, a full twintip board, in both directions with 180s, 360's and butters thrown into the fun. I'm an incredibly playful rider and don't just carve as it may have seemed from my first post.

Of course the overall goal here is to enjoy yourself so of course to each their own, I was just looking for some discussion on why as we will now be calling it "euro carving" isn't seen much.

Another note as race skiing was brought up, I see way more skiers really ripping it then riders, on a good day I will see a couple riders killing it carving if I'm lucky but will see many skiers. Im assuming this has to do with more skiers being in race programs especially as youths but its great to see someone just enjoying the trip down the hill. No trees, rails, jumps, bumps, anything, just you and the trail.


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## abadidol

Snowolf said:


> My "objection" to the tone of the original post is that there is an attitude that there is only one "right" way to snowboard. As long as people are out there having fun and riding in control, who the hell cares how they are doing it....:dunno:
> 
> I see people riding "poorly" by pushing their back foot around and riding with the "mystery date" all of the time, but unless someone asks me to teach them, I don`t go around telling people they are riding wrong...not my business. If someone is not Euro carving, why care?


You know what, I do care. As much as I'm all for people just being in control and enjoying themselves, if you want to be a skilled virsital rider and want to up your game, learn the skills the step it up for your own enjoyment and the entire sport. Carving is fun.


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## skip11

I always learning to carve and making dynamic skidded turns properly is analogous to learning the fundamentals in basketball. Once you got the fundamentals down then you can do it your own way or style or whatever, but you need to get the basics down which is making proper turns and carves. Because I think that will improve your own riding when you're tackling advanced terrain and in the end will have more fun.


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## Mooz

abadidol said:


> You know what, I do care. As much as I'm all for people just being in control and enjoying themselves, if you want to be a skilled virsital rider and want to up your game, learn the skills the step it up for your own enjoyment and the entire sport. Carving is fun.


One of the biggest themes I and other instructors push right now is "No correct way". There is efficient and less efficient yes but I refuse to use the term correct and incorrect. What's fun to you may not be to another. People will learn what they want at their own pace. The important thing is to have fun. That's the heart and soul of snowboarding. It's not some uptight club of "ride like this, carve like that. Do as I do!". Skiers have that shit. We do not.

Like wolf said, unless a person asks me for assistance with their riding, I am no more concerned for how they enjoy themselves than I am for your misspelling of versatile.


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## abadidol

Mooz said:


> One of the biggest themes I and other instructors push right now is "No correct way". There is efficient and less efficient yes but I refuse to use the term correct and incorrect. What's fun to you may not be to another. People will learn what they want at their own pace. The important thing is to have fun. That's the heart and soul of snowboarding. It's not some uptight club of "ride like this, carve like that. Do as I do!". Skiers have that shit. We do not.
> 
> Like wolf said, unless a person asks me for assistance with their riding, I am no more concerned for how they enjoy themselves than I am for your misspelling of versatile.


I'm a poor spelling ass, I can do math, can't spell... I suck.

Yeah as an instructor I wouldn't push it on people too much but as skip11 mentioned, it is like learning the fundamentals of any sport. if you are really looking to improve your riding and not just "go have fun" then you should learn. 

I see plenty of Instructors who themselves can't even carve, thats pretty bad... 

And yes, there is a correct way to carve. 

If you are teaching an advanced snowboard lesson you better damn well be able to teach a rider to carve.

And I think your assessment of skiers being all "do what I do" is very incorrect. Skiing has its heart in and same place as boarding, have fun. This separation is all just nonsense, people like being part of a "cooler group". Hell there are ballet skiers, mogul skiers, racers, freeskiers so they certainly are as varied if not more then boarders. And pretty much every really good skier can carve, and *correctly*.


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## Mooz

abadidol said:


> And yes, there is a correct way to carve.



Really? Define it then. Even in this thread people can't agree on what carving is. There are several different disciplines in snowboarding. What one would consider "the essential basics" in one is not always essential in another. Let's take a look at the freeride and free-carve (alpine) styles. In both, learning to carve would be an essential skill but neither style approaches carving in the same manner. In fact, I could argue multiple approaches for each discipline. None would be more correct than the other. In the end they achieve the same result but approach it differently.

Now take freestlye and jibbing. Carving is essential to neither style. Someone who excels at spins and massive airs may not have a "proper" carve as you define it. They have no need for it. The last thing you're going to do after landing a back 9 off of a 40ft jump is lay down a massive carve on the run out.

Again in the end it boils down to enjoying the sport. Do whatever makes you happy. Go hardcore in one style or mix it up. Who cares? Just have fun. Your style is what you make of it. It does not belong in a neatly labeled box of "freestyle/freeride/alpine/jib". It's an unique as the rider.

As for your skier comment, I can point out many very good freestyle skiers that can't carve for shit. Their individual style has not deemed it a relevant skill.


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## BliND KiNK

for me carving is when I turn and accelerate like I have the afterburners on... and then when you switch edges it almost feels like you're on a wave for a split second and that's when you really hit the NOS.... 

first time I actually did it, I was screaming NOOOOOOOOSSSSSSSS all the way down the hill lmfao.


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## AAA

I'll mention racing since someone brought that up. Keep in mind that I'm not a racer, but have had the priveledge of spending a few race training sessions with participation and coaching by some international class athletes; one a former snowboard PGS Olympian. (When you hear, "We just got back from a race in Canada last week, and half our team is in France this week", you know these guys are the best of the best.) There you get a real appreciation for the skill of these high level athletes. You also find out this "no wrong way" stuff is crap. The coaches on that level call out the most minutia of flaws in form and technique. "You rolled your body across the board instead of dropping your knee first. Stay forward coming off that turn. You're uphill shoulder was too low. You overrotated going into that turn. Snap your board on edge faster and initiate higher in the turn. Your last hard edge pressure needs to end at the gate. You're going to need to stand on the nose coming over that roller and really drive the board." All that stuff was called out just for me. Still finer points were called out for the racers. Those guys blew me away. The point being, there is most definitely a RIGHT way for these athletes to ride; not just to make the gates, but to keep themselves from flying into the trees or getting hurt at the steep pitches and speeds they ride. That filters down to riders at all levels.

Racing also isn't about making perfect carves down the fall line, but finding the fastest way down the race course. With that, the riders learn how to make subtle manipulations in edge pressure, edge angle, angulation, and a host of other things to place their boards very precisely relative to the gates and take the fastest course. ALL of this takes riders to a higher level of perfection, which translates directly into making them better freecarvers. Each time I was in one of these sessions, I learned or tweaked something small, but that felt like an epiphany in my riding. 

As far as the fun factor, I definitely like freecarving and digging trenches more than running gates. (Freecarving is a free expression, while racing is very regimented.) But I can absolutely see where the hard work of racing pays off. So just a suggestion to anyone; that if they have the opportunity to jump in a race clinic for a morning or whenever, to absolutely take advantage of it. Very good skills come out of it.


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## abadidol

Mooz said:


> Really? Define it then.


Engage turn. Hold edge and shift weight as needed. Transfer/Rebound to next turn. Repeat. Of course there is the times and necessity to wash edges to scrub speed, etc. Freeride, Freecarve, same thing. 

Hold a real edge, don't just swish down the hill.



Mooz said:


> As for your skier comment, I can point out many very good freestyle skiers that can't carve for shit. Their individual style has not deemed it a relevant skill.


I never said that all skiers can carve, I said a larger cross section can. Of course someone with a park mentality who doesnt want to learn it wont. But there are so many people who just ride the mountain who would benefit from learning it. 

It kinda worries me if you are an instructor (im assuming, possibly incorrectly that you are) and can't define carving. If an advanced rider came to you for a lesson and said "I want to learn to carve very well" What would you teach them?


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## Mooz

AAA said:


> You also find out this "no wrong way" stuff is crap


That's true, if you're training to be an olympic racer. The point in no correct way is that it's not about who has the olympic gold or who wins the most. It's about finding your own style, having fun and creating your own contribution to the sport.

This is precisely why people like Terje boycott the olympics. It takes away from the heart of snowboarding. It makes it about following a predetermined set of rules. Stripping away the individuality that made the sport what it is.

Your style is your own. It's not for me and that's fine. I don't rate my ability as a rider based off of the same criteria that you do. That's the whole point.


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## Mooz

abadidol said:


> Engage turn. Hold edge and shift weight as needed. Transfer/Rebound to next turn. Repeat. Of course there is the times and necessity to wash edges to scrub speed, etc. Freeride, Freecarve, same thing.
> 
> Hold a real edge, don't just swish down the hill.


You just defined a dynamic turn, not a carve. Thanks for making my point


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## abadidol

Again, well put AAA, learning the subtleties of racing makes you a better more knowledgeable rider. Why stay ignorant when you don't have to, that seems dumb. 

I DONT WANT TO LEARN MORE! I JUST WANT TO DO IT MY WAY! huh? I would like to improve.


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## Mooz

abadidol said:


> It kinda worries me if you are an instructor (im assuming, possibly incorrectly that you are) and can't define carving. If an advanced rider came to you for a lesson and said "I want to learn to carve very well" What would you teach them?


Where did I say I can't throw a carve or a dynamic turn (as you define carving)? I can, and as snowolf has seen first had, I can very well. I'm just defending the right of people to ride however they want.

If someone came up to me and said "I want to polish my dynamic turns", I would be ecstatic. I fucking love to go through a run with picture perfect pencil line turns the whole way down. That's a big part of my own style. Again, my *own* style.


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## abadidol

Mooz said:


> You just defined a dynamic turn, not a carve. Thanks for making my point


I don't think I proved your point at all, i'm pretty sure its all arguable. So one could always say "You proved my point" because the description is subjective. I'm pretty sure its understood what we are talking about here. Don't muddle it up with semantics.


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## thetraveler

i've changed my mind - for selfish reasons, of course. i DONT want other people to really carve because it makes me feel more special when i do it 

joking aside, i agree there has to be a relaxed attitude about the sport like in all other things in life. if somebody doesn't want to try or learn something, its their choice and i'm not going to be upset about it. 

OP, if you really care about this you should do something to make things change. you shouldn't find it too difficult to gather a few kids on your hill and give them snowboarding lessons - could probably earn a few bucks doing it, too. two birds with one stone.

Snowolf - I've been meaning to ask - can you please define dynamic skidded turns?

cheers


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## Mooz

abadidol said:


> Again, well put AAA, learning the subtleties of racing makes you a better more knowledgeable rider. Why stay ignorant when you don't have to, that seems dumb.
> 
> I DONT WANT TO LEARN MORE! I JUST WANT TO DO IT MY WAY! huh? I would like to improve.


By that same logic I can also say not wanting to learn the subtleties of a corked 7 would also be ignorant and dumb.

If the subtleties of racing improve your own personal style and enjoyment then go for it. Again your criteria for riding is not universal. Nor should it be.


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## abadidol

Mooz said:


> Stripping away the individuality that made the sport what it is.


Learning a good technique will not remove your individuality, possibly it will even enhance your abilities to express yourself.


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## abadidol

Mooz said:


> By that same logic I can also say not wanting to learn the subtleties of a corked 7 would also be ignorant and dumb.
> 
> If the subtleties of racing improve your own personal style and enjoyment then go for it. Again your criteria for riding is not universal. Nor should it be.


Not by the same logic, by SIMILAR logic, I would want to learn the subtleties corked 7's of I was doing them, not wanting to WOULD be ignorant and dumb! EVERYONE rides down the hill. How is learning to do it better bad?


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## Mooz

abadidol said:


> I'm pretty sure its understood what we are talking about here. Don't muddle it up with semantics.


Really, I see several posts from people who don't understand the difference.


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## abadidol

Mooz said:


> Really, I see several posts from people who don't understand the difference.


Yes, really. I think at this point of the discussion people reading understand what we are talking about. AAA's photos showed a nice example and the concept of holding a edge vs washing an edge out was clearly noted by snowolf and others.


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## Mooz

abadidol said:


> Learning a good technique will not remove your individuality, possibly it will even enhance your abilities to express yourself.


Now who's muddling things up in semantics? 

I've never said learning a good technique is bad. Skidded turns by no means is the best way to get down the hill. However, unless I am instructing that person, it's no business of mine how they get down. If I'm giving a lesson as a person is performing all skidded or donkey kick turns, I'm going to teach them dynamic turns (or hell at that point just a better controlled turn) and express to them why it's a more efficient way to travel downhill. I am however not going to use the term "incorrect" with them.

At any rate, this is my last post in this thread. I'm starting to perceive a little hostility and a bit more emotion than I think belongs here.


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## abadidol

Mooz said:


> I've never said learning a good technique is bad. Skidded turns by no means is the best way to get down the hill. However, unless I am instructing that person, it's no business of mine how they get down. If I'm giving a lesson as a person is performing all skidded or donkey kick turns, I'm going to teach them dynamic turns (or hell at that point just a better controlled turn) and express to them why it's a more efficient way to travel downhill. I am however not going to use the term "incorrect" with them.


I would have to agree that as a teaching technique you are completely correct. I'm glad to see you would try to teach good technique and nurture individuality. All good things!



Mooz said:


> At any rate, this is my last post in this thread. I'm starting to perceive a little hostility and a bit more emotion than I think belongs here.


I'm sorry if passionate discussion got mixed up with hostility, not the intention. Emotion is connected to passion for an opinion. I will be posting again here but not now. Fuck it dude lets go bowling ...


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## Grizz

Hey Mooz,
Hope you haven't bailed on this thread yet. It's just getting good.



Mooz said:


> learning to carve would be an essential skill


I think we can agree if A persons riding is to keep progressing at some point the carving skill set is a needed element. Riders who never learn to carve will be lacking a fundamental movement pattern necessary for most upper level riding.




Mooz said:


> Now take freestlye and jibbing. Carving is essential to neither style. Someone who excels at spins and massive airs may not have a "proper" carve as you define it. They have no need for it. The last thing you're going to do after landing a back 9 off of a 40ft jump is lay down a massive carve on the run out.


Here's where I've got to disagree with you a little. While low level freestyle can be done with limited carving ability it's mandatory for upper level freestyle. You're focusing on the wrong end of ATML for where carving is important. The pros may not carve away from L but if they aren't at A and T they probably won't be catching "massive airs". Just watched the X games last week. Riders weren't skidding across the half pipe to boost those huge spins. Carving = amplitude.

I'm seeing a lot of "carving isn't necessary for freestyle" type posts, not just yours, and I've got to disagree.


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## Toecutter

AAA said:


> Racing also isn't about making perfect carves down the fall line, but finding the fastest way down the race course. With that, the riders learn how to make subtle manipulations in edge pressure, edge angle, angulation, and a host of other things to place their boards very precisely relative to the gates and take the fastest course. ALL of this takes riders to a higher level of perfection, which translates directly into making them better freecarvers. Each time I was in one of these sessions, I learned or tweaked something small, but that felt like an epiphany in my riding.


Yes, the purpose of racing is to get down the hill as fast as possible. Are you assuming I want the same thing? Where does sitting on my ass and checking out the view fit into your schema of "the right way to snowboard?" How does boosting off of a wind lip fit into the racer's technique?


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## abadidol

Well... this much writing is like being back in school and having homework... Except I do this because I care.


Snowolf said:


> For YOU it is fun ( I also agree that it is fun ) but that does not mean that it is fun for everyone. You my love Broccoli while others hate (I do) neither one is wrong, its a matter of personal taste. Forcing the art of carving on someone is like you mom forcing that nasty green shit down the kids throat.
> 
> Take your passion for carving and share it with those who want it, but if someone says, "hey not my thing"...accept that as their freedom of choice. As I said, you don`t have to be good at carving to A) be in control, B) be a decent rider and C) Be having fun. Live and let live...that is all.
> 
> ]Again, not disagreeing with you one whit about carving improving your overall riding...it certainly does, but it is not my place or yours to force it someone nor is it cool to condescend to people who can`t or won`t and don`t care. Its simply not our place.


I really didn't mean that I want to shove it down peoples throats who dont want it or be condescending, my passion for good carving may have come off as such, it just seems like a skill we are losing that many can benefit from. Funny, I do like broccoli... 

I really don't judge people who can't carve, I'm all for people doing what they want, I just feel almost sad to see good riders who are clearly trying to get better and would benefit from it but never learn it partially because it has been pushed to the fringes of the sport.



Snowolf said:


> Whoa, hold on a minute here.... There are many instructors who are fantastic because they are natural teachers and communicators who may not have the experience to learn the advanced riding skills yet. They can certainly teach beginners to make those first basic turns. This is like saying that because I can`t do a double corked 9 I am not a good instructor.....:dunno: I am not qualified to teach advanced park, but that does not mean I am not qualified to teach a rider how to....oh I don`t know....learn to CARVE.
> 
> It is statements like this that led to Mooz and others to feel hostility here.


Well put and I agree, good teachers do not have to be able to do what they are teaching, being observant, knowledgeable and able to communicate the ideas is much more important. 

By not be able to carve I really meant hold an edge, and I do feel that that is a fundamental for certain levels. I know that is not most instructors but I do see instructors out there who really lack the fundamentals to even show an example of a good turn (carve or washed out) to the group they are teaching. I understand this may be the exception, we have bad teachers in schools, bad cops, bad accountants, so I will let this one go. And I really did not mean to offend. [/QUOTE]



Snowolf said:


> Agreed...just as there is a correct way to hit a jump, hit a rail and ride the pipe, not to mention make a good skidded turn.


Word up.



Snowolf said:


> Agreed again and by the way, AASI requires this for certified instructors. Even as a level one, you have to be able to demonstrate a basic carved turn. As a level two, you have to demonstrate a dynamic carved turn as well as a basic switch carved turn.
> 
> Out of curiosity, since we are on that subject, how are your switch carved turns? Do you ride switch at all?....the reason I ask is not to be ass (though I cant help it sometimes) I ask this make a point. That point is that most alpine carving setups I see are not even designed to be ridden switch.....why? because you don`t need to or want to....just like some riders don`t need to or want to learn to carve....not wrong, just different.


Yes I ride switch about 1/3 of my time on the hill. I have a +18 -18 stance on a true twin tip (T.Rice). My switch turns are not as refined as my regular stance but I'm working on them every day I'm out. Favorite turn is a nice deep regular toeside turn then to use the rebound to 180 or butter my way into a nice deep switch toeside turn. And repeat. 

Its true that an alpine setup doesn't allow you to carve switch, its just not in their interest. You are correct. They have chosen to sacrifice an aspect of riding to pursue another. This is similar to the kid who rides a super wide stance and a very soft board. He has chosen park as what he wants to pursue and sacrificed other aspects. But many riders don't specialize and try to enjoy most aspects of the sport, these fundamental skills we are discussing (skidded turns, dynamic turns, switch, park, euro carves) all will make the all around rider better I was just focusing on the carving aspects.



Snowolf said:


> I have to disagree here with your summation that freeriding and freecarving are the same thing....not at all. There is plenty of free riding environments where you want to used dynamic skidded turns over a carve. I sure as hell do not try to carve down Christmas Chute at Alyeska. There is plenty of use of a dynamic skidded turn in the tight trees, steep, narrow chutes to name a couple. Again, Carving is a great skill, but is not always the best method to use on all terrain or in all snow conditions.


Shit again... I meant the basic concepts of how you turn in both were similar, not that they were similar. Damn me and my poor communication skills.



Snowolf said:


> This is why your tone has been interpreted as hostile.... No need to come off this way to someone who you do not know nor have you seen teach. Your definition of carving (above) is pretty vague as well. I understand you were not trying to teach here, but you really should also allow Mooz the same benefit of the doubt too. Because he did not go into the finer points of entering and holding either a basic or dynamic carved turns in no way means that he can`t or does not when teaching.


Haha, yeah I purposely stated it in very general terms to show that a carve can be described. As you stated, was not trying to teach, just define the general aspects.



Snowolf said:


> Yes I have and there are not a ton of people who can carve down off the Hogsback near the summit of Mt. Hood 3,000 feet above the top of Palmer. In fact, many people who are good riders would shit their pants the second they turned around and looked down that 55 degree pitch to the active volcanic vents you MUST avoid at the bottom of it! What is more, he actually came back a second time do it with me.
> 
> Trust me, he knows how to carve and how to use dynamic skidded and when and where to use both techniques!


Well then, I mistook Mooz's defense of just letting people do what they want as a dismissal of carving a a fundamental technique. I know my arguments may have come off as personal jabs to someone I dont know and have never ridden with but I was trying to flesh out the point and gain insight on his stance (opinion not board setup) which seemed to be opposite to what AAA and myself hold. 



Snowolf said:


> Exactly the point I was trying to make...offer this passion and good knowledge (which it is) to those who want it and don`t worry about what others are doing.


That was exactly the purpose of starting this thread, to discuss carving. And that is happening. 

I'll be the first to admit. I'm a bad teacher, which is a large reason I have made sure never to become an instructor. I know where my weaknesses lay. (Apparently from the tone of this thread I can be a bit of an asshole as well!). But I am able to discuss the subtleties of what I am knowledgeable on. And I will offer what on can on those subjects and I really need to get a GoPro and a filmer and make an instructional video of advanced carving techniques labeled something like "Enjoying the Rest of your ride down the hill" and try to share my passion to those who want to learn it.



Snowolf said:


> Be happy to, but let`s leave that for another thread.


I would love to see a proper breakdown of this as well!



Snowolf said:


> Apples an oranges here obviously. I will never, ever, ever do one of these on purpose and if I do it accidentally, please get Life Flight airborne and on the way! Yes everyone rides down the hill, but carving is a refined technique just as most people do catch a little air off a jump but have no desire to learn to ride park. Again, is all comes back to not imposing YOUR opinions and attitudes on others. So long as these people swishing down the hill are riding in control and not hurting you, it is not your place to be telling them how they should ride.
> 
> Having said that, from a technical aspect, you are 100% correct that carving is an invaluable skill and can enhance anyone`s overall riding. We should encourage it without being pushy and condescending to those who are not ready to give it a try...:thumbsup:


Discussion had. As always well stated and insightful. Of course, the goal we are all looking for and what we can all agree upon is... HAVE FUN!


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## abadidol

Snowolf said:


> I would say the same to you and *abadidol* that you are saying to others....many of the techniques used in good freestyle training will translate to good riding outside of the park. You should really learn the basics of good freestyle and incorporate that into your daily riding; it will make you a better rider overall......


Oops, missed this in my last post and I couldn't agree more! Upping any aspect of your riding will carry over into the others!


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## slyder

Snowolf said:


> In addition, if this miserable weather on Mt. Hood ever straightens out, I will be happy to make a new video lesson introducing basic and dynamic carved turns to go with the other basic and intermediate video tutorials.


Looking forward to seeing this and from anyone else that would be willing to post a video.

I too wish I could afford a GoPro they look and take sweet videos


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## thetraveler

*video (starting point)*

ok, this is not great but its one of the better ones i could find on the internet (in 10 minutes). you see examples of two or three riders in soft boots and ducked stance(i think) doing wide carves. the guy in the pink pants also demonstrates dynamic carving at one point. we can have people here adding stuff to build on what the video provides as a starting point. 

my comment: 

note the ideal/easy conditions they used in the video - a wide easy slope with corduroy, bluebird day and no crowds. this has been said on this thread before by wolf - conditions are not always right for carving (even though i push myself to practice it in all conditions ). 

YouTube - How to Snowboard - Basic Carve


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## skip11

Vote for snowolf to make the carving video


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## baconzoo

3/4 way through the face shots are some carving.





What I do is blow myself up! Edge locking carves to big shut downs is a fun way to force those glutenous face shots. I eat snow for breakfast.


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## abadidol

baconzoo said:


> 3/4 way through the face shots are some carving.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What I do is blow myself up! Edge locking carves to big shut downs is a fun way to force those glutenous face shots. I eat snow for breakfast.


Looks great! nice turns and it looks like you were having a blast!


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## rasmasyean

MistahTaki said:


> not that people don't try to perfect their carving, they can't carve. period. Most people i see on the hill can only skid. I wonder why people that have been riding 10 times longer than me can't even carve.


Unless you aremaking really wide turns, often carving will put you into high downhill speeds. So boarders skid because they are checking thier speeds. You can make thos wide turns if you want, but you can't always because you'd be running into ppl sideways.


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## BliND KiNK

baconzoo said:


> 3/4 way through the face shots are some carving.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What I do is blow myself up! Edge locking carves to big shut downs is a fun way to force those glutenous face shots. I eat snow for breakfast.


hur hur hur you need a face mask or facial hair :laugh:


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## Phenom

Yeah it pisses me off that there are people out there having fun riding the way they want and not how I would like them to ride. They really need to learn how to ride the way I want them to.


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## BliND KiNK

unless you are pulling out spray paint and protractors.. I'd say carving is carving.


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## phile00

Snowolf said:


> This is a valid point. Now it is true that a good carver using dynamic carved turns (Angulation) as opposed to basic carved turns (Inclination), can control speed with turn shape without needing to skid. In addition, the use of good dynamic carved turns can enable the rider to narrow their corridor down to medium radius turns ( about the width of 2 grooming cats ). The problem of traffic is a real one, especialy when the carver needs to turn uphill for turn completion. This would become a very unsafe way to ride in most resort environments.
> 
> Sometimes simply closing off the turn to make symetrical C turns is a hazard on most busy runs and is why most skiers and riders use open ended S turns. This allows us to ride in control and maintain a narrow corridor that is safer for everyone on the hill. There are a lot of people who are actually quite capable of making very good carved turns but can't in many environments. I would say that on a crowded run, carving is "improper" and the "proper" technique is the use of the open ended skidding turn.


Can you explain inclination vs angulation? Never heard of this before. 

Also, I never do C turns. I'm so very rarely on a slope where I'd feel safe doing that without someone hitting me. I do a lot of cross-over or cross-under S turns I suppose. I always utilize dynamic skidded on steeps and moguls. I really would love a lesson to improve me carving. I cannot carve on overly varied terrain; chop/push mounds/etc.


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## gjsnowboarder

Snowolf said:


> There are of course some huge fundamental differences in dynamic riding from basic or static riding. In our basic riding we strive to keep the entire body moving as a unit aligned with our board. In dynamic riding there is a distinct upper and lower body seperation along with a seperation in alignment to our board.
> 
> Key dynamic movements are counter, rotation, independent flexion and extension and fore / aft movements. Any one or a combination of these movements allows our board to maneuver independently from our upper body. This dynamic movement allows us to control our board in extreemely challenging environments like steeps, trees, carving, park and pipe.


Dynamic riding is about the use of more movement in riding. Increasing the timing, intensity, and duration of our movements. While it is definitly true that an aspect of dynamic riding can involve the seperation of the lower and upperbody in our turns(cross-unders, the most visible and recognizable), it is also true that we can be riding dynamically in a cross-over turns where we stay stacked in our alignments, but use a fuller range of movements and increase/decrease the board performance skills necessary to complete a riding task.


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## phile00

Ahh, so angulation and inclination end up being the difference between cross-under and cross-over for the most part, right?

I can do cross-over and cross-under turns... but cross under I can't do with any regularity on varied terrain. It seems too difficult when you hit anything that becomes chopped up. Is that normal? 

On a separate note, the technique where you can squeeze your back knee to your nose or pull the back knee outward to the tail, is that a valid technique? Where is that technique useful. I do it sometimes just for fun. If you poke your back knee too far and too quickly, you can make an insanely sharp toe-side turn and catch an edge


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## gjsnowboarder

It could just be a regional difference. During my level 2 exams I was able to get away with crossunder carve turns for dynamic short radius turns vs what the examiners showed which was with the cross-over movement but which they had not clarified when defining the task. During my level 3 clinics there was a clear distinction made between the cross-over vs cross-under as far as CM in relation to the board but there were expectations of dynamic skidded crossover turns on steep blacks as well as cross-under. Same thing for carve turns.


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## Toecutter

Here's a counterpart thread on this same topic on EpicSki (reputation for being an old school, fuddy-duddy forum). If you have no interest in a skier's vantage on this same topic, please don't click.

"The only people who want to carve any more..." - EpicSki Community


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## KIRKRIDER

DId a lot of that yesterday...that A-Frame is a monorail...with steep angles ( +18 +12 ) was a rollercoaster.


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## baconzoo

some pics on form:


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## abadidol

baconzoo said:


> some pics on form:


Killin Dude, I love the Ronin Sticker on the helmet.


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## phile00

Snowolf said:


> This sounds like a technique used with an aggressive forward stance. I ride duck at +15 /-15 so I am not familiar with this technique. I would say if it works well, it is all good.


Try it, it's fun. Just be real careful when you push the knee toward the nose when you turn toe-side, because you can make the turn too drastic. I ride the same stance but it works. I don't do it all of the time or even most of the time, I just do it when I feel like it when I want to make a bunch of tight turns.


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## john doe

I play around with the width of my knees when carving. My board has a shallow side cut and to get sharper carves I have to remember to bring my knees together to flex the board. I got the idea to do that from one of the snowprofessor videos.


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## Ratsch-Bumm

baconzoo said:


> some pics on form:


Awesome heelside! 

Another photo. He is a hard-booter from Syberia, but here you can see him with soft setup.


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## baconzoo

*Carving from the Top... Down.*

Carving on a snowboard from the top down. Just look, lean, and love the hill. 
I've been riding for 26 years, so I don't think much about what I'm doing. I taught for 8 years so I know all the terms and techniques. But my philosophy to carving is this:
Look where you want to go.
Strive or reach toward that goal.
It's a mental mapping of where you want to go and it happens by just looking at the hill. Search for the contours or texture where you know the board will arch well against them.

Everything else happens on it's own. As long as your legs can handle the stress of the board and hill binding up to an apex of each turn. Releasing that energy comes from seeking that next contour of snow to arch on. I guess that there is some foot steering going on, but my focus is to let the lower body (hips, knees, and ankles) do what it has to, to be flexible and keep up with where the upper body is going and driving.

Snowboard Carving POV - HD170 Stealth on Vimeo


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## BliND KiNK

that was a cool video.. but seeing your head as always stable really made me want to vomit my flaming hot funyuns up... had like intense vertigo from that haha.


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## AIRider

I switched my stance from 15/-15 to 21/6 ... we'll see how it goes this weekend ... I don't ride any switch, park, jumps, tricks, none of that stuff... I just want to go down the mountain without falling, but I def want to learn how to carve before anything else...


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