# flatland 180



## zenboarder (Mar 5, 2009)

Practice jumping on flat ground while not moving and spinning your body 180 degrees. Once you have this motion down then do the same thing while traversing the hill slowly. That's really all there is to it...


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## mrpez (Jan 29, 2010)

ill do that. i thought there would be a need to start on an edge or something.


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## rasmasyean (Jan 26, 2008)

The way i did it was skid to 90 and jump the rest of the 90 and worked my way up more. I found it help gradually acclimate to spinning and landing. The more you spin in the air, the more you get thrown off balance...at least in the beginning so it helps to start small.


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## Thad Osprey (Feb 18, 2009)

Yes you do need to start on an edge. Theres no "correct way" to do flat land ones. You can pop off any edge, land on any edge, or use regular or counter-rotation. But to simplify all this for you, and because we all got to start somewhere, here are some basic starting points. You will have more questions later on how to "refine" these I am sure.

Frontside flat 180: 

i)Set up to jump and pop off your heel edge
ii) As you pop off heel edge turn shoulders anti-clockwise for regular, clockwise for goofy
iii) Whilst in the air, suck knees up for more air and style even if airtime is only short
iv) Your head looks downhill since it is an "open rotation" (i.e. you keep seeing downhill)
v) Stomp landing with both feet, absorb landing with knees (straight leg landings are bad)
vi)I prefer landing on my heel edge altho this is preference
vii)You will land "switch", so u need to learn how to ride out switch 

Bakcside Flat 180:

i)Set up to jump and pop off your toe edge
ii) As you pop off toe edge turn shoulders clockwise for regular, anti-clockwise for goofy
iii) Whilst in the air, suck knees up for more air and style even if airtime is only short
iv) Your head looks back uphill since it is a "blind rotation" (i.e. back faces downhill)
v) Stomp landing with both feet with your head looking back uphill before u turn to look downhill
vi)I prefer landing on my toe edge for backside 180s altho this is preference
vii)You will land "switch" again, so u need to learn how to ride out switch 

Actually the mechanics of this is pretty much similar to the jumping stickies you can find on this forum. Theres alot more info on Youtube, Google etc Also, if you really wanna do flatground 180s, I cant stress enough the importance of learning to ride switch. And when ur starting out, try to align ur shoulders with your board when spinning around. Its hard first few times when you throw your shoulders around and they are not in sync with ur board. This will cause you to have balance issues and reverting issues. I'll stop since I think Im rambling... good luck.


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## rasmasyean (Jan 26, 2008)

Thad Osprey said:


> Yes you do need to start on an edge. Theres no "correct way" to do flat land ones. You can pop off any edge, land on any edge, or use regular or counter-rotation.


Ideally...with counter rotation, you don't really need to use an edge if you do it right. With regular windups, you need to "push" off the edge into the rotation. Or rather...use an edge to keep the board aligned while you start to rotate your shoulders/arms...thus imparting a rotational push off the snow.

In counter-rotation, you don't push off anything, but it's more like your legs/board and your shoulders/arms "push" off eachother whilst in the air.

This way is actually harder and requires some more precise timing for most people I believe. But when you can do it right, you can spin much faster and barely even have to jump off the ground.


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## Thad Osprey (Feb 18, 2009)

Mr Wolf is right in that ultimately flat 180s do not require a huge wind up or rotation. But I always find that many beginners do not have enough power in the legs and hips to manage to simply do a scissor turn. Hence I mention the shoulders and head movements to go along (Mr Wolf explains these very well). Its not so much the power in the rotation for this, but making sure that all parts of your body are in sync with this tiny rotation you are doing.

As for Ramasyean's comment on edges, I would have to disagree. The use of edges is to set a solid platform for you to spin from. It helps to lock your board into the snow, so you can flex down against it and pop off solid and get good height off your pop. Its got nothing to do with regular or counter-rotation. Unless you are catching no air at all and are doing flat ground spins like in the video (which I assume the OP can do), I dont see how you "dont push off anything". I also dont see how "spinning much faster" and "barely even having to jump off the ground" is helpful. 

IMHO, stylish 180s, even on flatground, need to have good airtime and height, to make them look clean. Simply throwing a counter-rotative movement to get the board around 180 degrees fast is a debatable technique and a bad way to build up to more advanced ground tricks. But as long as you are having fun with them, there is "No Correct Way" (but c'mon man, doesnt style matter???).


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## rasmasyean (Jan 26, 2008)

I would agree with the “beginner power in the legs” comment as well. Since Mr Wolf is a professional athlete with horse legs it may seem a little easier for people like him.  It will be a while for many people to make up for the lack of power with finesse.

However, regarding the counter rotation without pushing off the edge, that’s why I said it’s more of an advanced technique. The place where you may see it used is if you were going to 180 onto a box or rail. If you impart a regular spin by rotation, your rotational momentum stays with you when you are on the smooth surface and you will wind up spinning on the feature. If you do not what that, then no “pushing” will allow you to for example…180-in 50-50 180-out.

Oh, and I also have found sort of the nose-roll thing to be easier if you don’t want to use as much “self-made rotation”. I’ve found in the beginning of learning 180’s, a small “off axis nollie” can allow the passing ground to spin the nose back and then you just have to land it switch. This is also easier when going a bit faster as the nollie can be really tiny while still having the snow toss you around 180 without you trying to jump and spin in a coordinated fashion. But yeah, doing it on a traverse and landing the on the uphill is much safer until you get the hang of it. This is because you have less room for error where if you are off, you would otherwise catch the wrong edge and slam while already off-balanced from spinning. But now that I think about it, this looks like something that will work better on a traditional camber board. Some rocker boards might lift the tips a bit higher and then your nose-roll / nollie might have to be more high...like an overhead flop sort of. hmm...


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## Thad Osprey (Feb 18, 2009)

rasmasyean said:


> However, regarding the counter rotation without pushing off the edge, that’s why I said it’s more of an advanced technique. The place where you may see it used is if you were going to 180 onto a box or rail. If you impart a regular spin by rotation, your rotational momentum stays with you when you are on the smooth surface and you will wind up spinning on the feature. If you do not what that, then no “pushing” will allow you to for example…180-in 50-50 180-out.


Nope. You seem to build too much into this counter-rotation thing. I agree that it helps you to lock onto a box or rail and prevent reverts or over-rotating onto a feature. But flatground 180s and jibbing are totally different animals. 

In jibbing, counter-rotating or rotating is dependent on how you want to mount the feature and what kind of manouveres you want to do on and off. It has got nothing to do with edge pressure. Many features that are "ride on" are in general mounted with less edge pressure or with your base generally flat to avoid inadvertently catching an edge.

But this should not be confused with what edging allows you to do. It is extremely difficult to get a good pop and spin without setting an edge. In flatground 180s, no one really stresses this, because we can just hop, scissor and land easily due to its less physically strenous nature. 

Whether or not you use regular or counter-rotation, it will not compensate for bad edging or trying to do a flatground 180 flat-based. Counter-rotation is not an "advanced" technique. It is a very basic technique for a lot of things...jibs, shiftys, rewinds etc..

And why are you bringing in a jibbing example when he is talking about flatground 180s?


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## mrpez (Jan 29, 2010)

thanks for all the advice! i might be able to go on tuesday, so i'll definitely take all your advice into account and let you know how it goes. 

just some facts that may help:

yes, i can do those flatland spins. i can do them smoothly and fluidly on a green run, but they're more "forced" on steeper runs like blues. ive only been doing them for less than half a day, so i expect improvement. 

i ride a GNU park pickle (rocker, asymmetric, true twin). i bought it because its a great park board, especially for flatland stuff. 

also, can anyone provide some input on buttering as well? i dabbled in that a little, and was able to lift the front half of my board up a couple of inches while cruising on my back foot, but not for long. i suppose that just comes with practice, as there probably isnt an exact science to buttering.


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## Thad Osprey (Feb 18, 2009)

*Buttering*

Yup. No exact science. In fact, just do a search on this forum and u can find lotsa stuff on things like butters and nose and tail presses. Also use google and youtube, theres lots of info out there. Type in things like "groundtricks, buttering, buttering tips" and read/watch/learn. Just dont be overwhelmed. Start small. I find it most helpful to go out and practise just 2 or 3 tricks at a time when starting out, than trying every trick in the book.

Got to be a bit mindful though cos theres folks in these forums who dont like it much if you dont do your own research and are very unspecific and you come in asking very broad questions that make it seem you didnt do your homework. 

And its a little more helpful if you have a specific question that people can address (such as tips for flatground 180s). Buttering, with its infinite combination of tricks, can go on forever. 

And I will once again nag you about learnign to ride switch. 

Good luck!


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## rasmasyean (Jan 26, 2008)

Try this. It's a bit harder than he makes it look but with anything, it takes practice. Sierra also has other "tutorial" clips as well.

YouTube - Snowboard Trick Tips - Butters

I would have to say that at some point, there is some form of “science” that is consistent across people. I mean, you will have to find your own way of balancing with your unique body, but for some things like for example, an off axis butter that is held…you will have to lift just enough of your board off the ground to make it behave like a small slide-slipping snowboard and adjust the lift to spin it either direction on the fly, etc. 

In general, once you are all “balanced” and stuff, if you are like at 90 and make a fat skid line with your press, if your body is more to the right of that skid, you will rotate CCW. If more to the left, you will rotate CW. So spinning in a press you can imagine takes quite a bit of adjusting as you go through the full circle. But don't take the middle of that skid line to be the exact point of "equilibrium" where you can hold the 90...it might be a little off to one side. I believe it would depend on the board and how it flexes under your wieght thus pressuring the edges harder toward the tip, for example.


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## h4m0 (Mar 9, 2010)

mrpez said:


> i really want to start trying flatland 180s before the season ends, but i have no idea how to start one. any help appreciated.


Osprey has it right - you need amplitude and style.

Things that helped me get it right

1) Spin backside (feels horrible at first as you can't see, but is actually easier to get the rotation) - that means spin to the right if your regular.
2) Pop off the tail - helps you generate nice clean height.
3) Do a no looker - keep your head pointing the same way until you land, then rotate it round to face the direction you are going (switch) - this looks cooler and helps keep your rotation smooth 


Sam


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