# Getting over the speed fear and keeping weight centered



## KIRKRIDER

PNWRider said:


> 1) Is it safe to run bomb down a green run on a flat board as an exercise to get accustomed to the speed?
> 2) What are some drills on that I might try to develop the muscle memory and posture for keeping my weight centered or slightly forward?
> 3) I'm recovering from knee surgery on my right (I ride regular) leg as well, so i can flex the knees and ankles to an extent, but my quads get fatiguied pretty quickly. I'm building strength in rehab so this problem will eventually go away. However, when people say "get low" how low do they mean?
> 
> Apologies for the long post and thanks in advance to anyone who replies!



1) Don't start from the top. Start toward the end and gradually increase. get used to the speed.
2) Long boarding. Or on the snowboard just move your hips back and forward along the board shifting your weight. Higher angles on your bindings (both positive) help too.
3) more than just low, keep your knees flexed and ready to absorb the ride. Rest and repeat paying attention to what's coming and adapting your posture to it.


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## ilikecoupons

I would say when you're bombing...pick your spots. Make sure you can't hurt anybody if you bail, and don't start off picking the steepest part.

Can't comment on muscle memory, but when people told me to get low, I always thought it meant like an athletically ready stance. Knees bent, low center of gravity, ready to react. Baseball players I think show the stance best, but you might not be spreading your legs so wide 

More symmetrical than in the picture, but that's the right idea. I would say that the feeling is that your knees are bent ~ halfway.


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## wrathfuldeity

where do you ride?

When bombing, going right down the fall line...there are no edges to catch. This is because the toe and heel edge are parallel with the fall line. So you just got to keep a bit of weight on your nose, keep your upper body quiet with shoulders and hips closed/parallel with the board; and your legs, knees and ankles loose, relaxed. As for being low...try alternating between standing tall and crouching as low as you can get...like taking a shit in the woods.


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## Edp25

There is also the altrnative to bombing which is to stay on edge and make very wide radius turns. In this case you will almost be bombing but will traverse the slope in a way that you will be moving downwards at a far greater rate than you are moving sidewards. The advantage being that you remain on edge while getting comfortable with speed. This way you can be gradual between slowly traversing and bombing. The middle ground is nice. It also allows you to progress to carving in a more natural fashion. There are lots of kooks on the hill that can bomb and jump but cannot execute a respectable turn. Great vids online here from Snow wolf and others. Good luck!


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## Donutz

As far as staying out of the back seat, this is what worked for me for getting used to the feel of a stance: On the flat, not moving, put yourself into what you consider a 60/40 front-weighted stance. Now, close your eyes and concentrate on how that feels. Feel the weight on your front leg. When you get on a slope, concentrate not on the slope, but on getting the same feel in your front leg. Hold that feeling, you hold the stance.


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## poutanen

Edp25 said:


> There is also the altrnative to bombing which is to stay on edge and make very wide radius turns. In this case you will almost be bombing but will traverse the slope in a way that you will be moving downwards at a far greater rate than you are moving sidewards. The advantage being that you remain on edge while getting comfortable with speed. This way you can be gradual between slowly traversing and bombing.


A big +1 here... Not sure why an instructor would tell somebody to flatbase and bomb a run to "get used to speed" unless you were just on the bunny hill and top speed in that case would be a quick jog.

Otherwise, it's way better to stay on an edge. I think it's sloppy boarding to flatbase. Do very light carves but you're pretty much bombing. I do this on all long traverses, it's actually faster than flatbasing, and you rest each set of muscles every few seconds or so (instead of getting calf pump or quad pump by the end of the traverse).

Also, not sure what the hype is about keeping your weight centred. You actually need to have your weight in all different areas depending on the snow, your speed, etc. Best way to feel out what weight does is to start off heelsliding, then gradually put more weight on your front foot, then back to centre, then towards your back foot. If done correctly you should turn more downhill with weight on your front foot, then hold that position with it centred, then turned back across the hill with weight on the back foot. Do the same exercise on your toe side to feel the same feelings.


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## handscreate

When I was first starting to ride I was always in the back seat. It took an instructor friend of mine watching me ride to tell me to grab my front knee while riding to initiate the forward lean needed to have real control & drive those front contact points into the snow. I'd suggest the same until you get used to the feeling. Also, as said above, get into the 60/40 forward lean on flat ground & learn how it feels to be in that position on your board. As far as getting over the speed....well, I can't help you there. It's just gotta happen. I finally started feeling really good about picking up stupid speed sometimes this season. I've always been ok with picking up some speed, but would get freaked out & slow myself down or stop when I was pointed straight down the mountain & bombing. Try traversing across the mountain, pointing more down than across, so you still pick up speed but can feel comfortable bringing yourself to a stop or bleeding off some speed if it gets too gnarly for you. Also, as stated above, don't go for the steep runs to learn to be comfortable with speed. That will scare the crap out of you & you'll feel even less in control than you do now. Riding on a flat base is a weird feeling & it does kinda feel like you don't have control, but keep in mind that you can always lean a little & initiate an edge to gain control if you feel like you don't have it.


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## mixie

PNWRider said:


> My fiance loves to ride, so this year, I commmitted myself to at least being able to learn to ride on blues so that I can join her.


aww. that is so sweet. 


Contrary to all the other advice here have you thought about buying some serious protection i.e. Helmet, wrist guards, hip pads and then spend some time learning how to fall properly. My suggestion after that would be to knock back a strong drink or two at the bar and go for it. 

It's easier to learn with _some_ momentum. And if you are too busy worrying about getting hurt (which is understandable) you won't be able to focus on your riding. That injury on the rope tow sounds brutal. Stay away from that thing. You probably can't hurt yourself as bad as that on a green run. I just tweaked my ankle bad doing something stupid with one foot strapped in....I know how it goes. 

So, go on. Get all padded up, get liquored up then toss your self down an *empty* green run. Learn to get over your fear of speed and you can sober up and focus on all the details


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## PNWRider

Wow, thanks for all the fast replies folks!



KIRKRIDER said:


> 2) Long boarding. Or on the snowboard just move your hips back and forward along the board shifting your weight. Higher angles on your bindings (both positive) help too.


Thanks KirkRider. What is long boarding? By higher angles, I suppose you mean such that my feet are pointed more towards the front of the board? Does this change any of the mechanics of how to do a simple skidded turn? 



wrathfuldeity said:


> where do you ride?
> 
> When bombing, going right down the fall line...there are no edges to catch. This is because the toe and heel edge are parallel with the fall line. So you just got to keep a bit of weight on your nose, keep your upper body quiet with shoulders and hips closed/parallel with the board; and your legs, knees and ankles loose, relaxed. As for being low...try alternating between standing tall and crouching as low as you can get...like taking a shit in the woods.


Snoqualmie Central right now when in Seattle, and Cypress Mountain when in Vancouver. Probably Crystal/Stevens once Snoqualmie closes for the season. 



Donutz said:


> As far as staying out of the back seat, this is what worked for me for getting used to the feel of a stance: On the flat, not moving, put yourself into what you consider a 60/40 front-weighted stance. Now, close your eyes and concentrate on how that feels. Feel the weight on your front leg. When you get on a slope, concentrate not on the slope, but on getting the same feel in your front leg. Hold that feeling, you hold the stance.


This sounds like a good idea, thanks! I'll try this Sunday when I'm on the slopes next. 



poutanen said:


> A big +1 here... Not sure why an instructor would tell somebody to flatbase and bomb a run to "get used to speed" unless you were just on the bunny hill and top speed in that case would be a quick jog.


Not sure how you define a bunny hill but I'm usually one of the green circle chairlifts. There are some variances in steepness between the various green runs here in the Pacific Northwest, but they are all roughly the same level of steepness. Some are a bit steeper on the top third. The bomb down the run was after the top third. Are the green circles considered bunny hills? My sister called it a flat, but she skiis black diamonds and I think she was just being sarcastic  
i


poutanen said:


> Also, not sure what the hype is about keeping your weight centred. You actually need to have your weight in all different areas depending on the snow, your speed, etc. Best way to feel out what weight does is to start off heelsliding, then gradually put more weight on your front foot, then back to centre, then towards your back foot. If done correctly you should turn more downhill with weight on your front foot, then hold that position with it centred, then turned back across the hill with weight on the back foot. Do the same exercise on your toe side to feel the same feelings.


I understand that as one advances, one needs to be able to move the weight around, but for many beginners like me, moving the weight forward is a huge mental obstacle so we work on that first 



handscreate said:


> When I was first starting to ride I was always in the back seat. It took an instructor friend of mine watching me ride to tell me to grab my front knee while riding to initiate the forward lean needed to have real control & drive those front contact points into the snow.


So I just lean to my left (regular rider) and lightly grab my front knee?



handscreate said:


> Also, as stated above, don't go for the steep runs to learn to be comfortable with speed. That will scare the crap out of you & you'll feel even less in control than you do now. Riding on a flat base is a weird feeling & it does kinda feel like you don't have control, but keep in mind that you can always lean a little & initiate an edge to gain control if you feel like you don't have it.


Thanks for this advice. I read somewhere on these forums that it's best not to advance in terrain until the current terrain gets boring. The instructors I've worked with keep trying to push me to blues and I'm not even comfortable going straight down the easiest greens yet! Just because I can occasionally link a turn by keeping my weight miraculously centered doesn't mean I can do s-turns down a blue yet, so it's good to hear that I'm doing the right thing by sticking to greens until I gain more confidence with speed.


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## PNWRider

mixie said:


> aww. that is so sweet.
> 
> 
> Contrary to all the other advice here have you thought about buying some serious protection i.e. Helmet, wrist guards, hip pads and then spend some time learning how to fall properly. My suggestion after that would be to knock back a strong drink or two at the bar and go for it.
> 
> It's easier to learn with _some_ momentum. And if you are too busy worrying about getting hurt (which is understandable) you won't be able to focus on your riding. That injury on the rope tow sounds brutal. Stay away from that thing. You probably can't hurt yourself as bad as that on a green run. I just tweaked my ankle bad doing something stupid with one foot strapped in....I know how it goes.
> 
> So, go on. Get all padded up, get liquored up then toss your self down an *empty* green run. Learn to get over your fear of speed and you can sober up and focus on all the details


Thanks! I do have a helmet and wrist guards, but I am considering investing in hip pads and a butt cushion. I see now why my afternoon runs are better than my morning runs; I usually have a beer at lunch! 

Yes, I wish I hadn't been on that stupid tow rope. It was two years after my first time on the snow, so I thought I'd start "easy" with a tow rope, rather than "risk" the chairlift. Falling while offloading a chairlift has never been too painful; just get back up again. But that stupid tow rope damaged me physically and mentally.


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## handscreate

Yes, literally grab your left pant leg (regular) at the thigh or knee, but don't grab your actual leg - just the pants. This will help put you in a forward leaned position without over doing it. It will also help keep your shoulders parallel with the board, which is proper riding stance. 

As far as advancing to blues, I am an advocate for pushing yourself to progress. If you can link a turn, or even just do J or C turns on a green or on the bunny slope, you can do it on a blue. It may seem scarier because of the pitch of the run, but you can always side slip down to a flatter area & begin your turns from there. Some steep runs scare the crap out of me & I side slip down until I reach a place where I'm comfortable turning down the mountain & linking my turns to get down. Work on linking your turns on greens & blues before you become too concerned with bombing straight down. The skills you'll develop changing from edge to edge, as well as the speed you can easily pick up while doing this, will help you to feel more comfortable on steeper terrain. Going too fast & freaking out will surely slow down your progress. Your fiance can wait at the lift for you if she's going that much faster than you are (especially since it sounds like you're giving this a shot for her, which is awesome btw!). My friends & I all have an unspoken deal that you wait at the bottom or the top for everyone to catch up. 

I agree with Mixie. The more protected you are, the less you'll think about the fear of injury. You've got a helmet & wrist guards, which is great. Get some decent padded shorts, like the Pro-Tec IPS Hip shorts, so that when you do fall on your ass it'll hurt way less if at all, and the memory of getting a bruised ass doesn't prevent you from pushing yourself to progress in this sport. Something else to consider is that we all fall. I don't care how good you are or get, you will eat it every now & then. Look back at what caused you to eat it & modify your moves so you can help prevent it from occurring again. In the earlier stages it's often catching an edge that causes this. Make your turns slow & fluid until you feel confident enough to make quicker turns while picking up speed - similar to pumping a skateboard. 

And the biggest piece of advice I can give you is to psych yourself out of being afraid. It's natural to get scared when we start out & we're picking up speed, but most often people bail or freak out & start leaning back, which will cause you to lose control. If it's getting too fast for you to feel comfortable, put on the brakes, but keep your form & forward lean going the whole time, until you've come to a stop. Sometimes a beer, a shot or a toke off a joint/bowl can help you to calm down enough to just go with the flow, and keep you from over thinking things. I have friends who take an Advil or a Vicodine 30mins before hitting the slopes to stay loose. In theory this could also help you to be less sore the next day in the event of a minor wipeout or just normal muscle soreness. Just remember there's a fine line between loosening up & being buzzed/intoxicated - and I don't suggest anyone ride/ski intoxicated or tipsy, as much like driving drunk/buzzed, you put yourself & others in danger.


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## Donutz

PNWRider said:


> Yes, I wish I hadn't been on that stupid tow rope. It was two years after my first time on the snow, so I thought I'd start "easy" with a tow rope, rather than "risk" the chairlift. Falling while offloading a chairlift has never been too painful; just get back up again. But that stupid tow rope damaged me physically and mentally.


QFT! I've seen far more carnage on the tow rope than on any chair lift, especially if the lifties aren't flattening out the track regularly. I hate the damthings and I was overjoyed when Seymour finally replaced theirs.

One other thing to remember -- you aren't snowboarding on pavement. We've got a lifetime of reflexes telling us that falling is painful and damaging. But unless you're on ice, or going Mach 2, falling on snow consists mostly of digging the snow out of your backside after you get up. Especially if you have protection (I have knee/shin pads, padded shorts, and a spine protector), you'll find that biffing hurts a lot less than you expect.


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## Donutz

PNWRider said:


> Thanks KirkRider. What is long boarding?


Longboarding


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## 566487

theres a lot of good advice in this thread already. i would just add that you shouldnt worry too much about the speed fear. that fear will eventually go away once your skills progress and you get more comfortable on your board. theres no reason to force the issue by flatbasing. keep working on your turns and you'll find your speed will naturally increase. 

you said you're going to wait until your bored of greens and bombing them until you move to blues. i assume that your beyond the stage of falling on your ass every 2 seconds and can link turns on a semi-regular basis. if thats the case then i would really encourage you to try and mix some blue runs into your next day on the mountain. you don't need to be able to bomb a green to safely get down a blue run. just take your time and stay in control. after a few blue trails go back to some greens and you'll probably already see some improvement in your riding and you'll be shredding greens in no time. its good to challenge yourself with harder terrain (within your limits of course), this will help with your progression and expose the weaker aspects of your riding that you need to go back to easier terrain and dial in.


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## poutanen

appage said:


> you said you're going to wait until your bored of greens and bombing them until you move to blues. i assume that your beyond the stage of falling on your ass every 2 seconds and can link turns on a semi-regular basis. if thats the case then i would really encourage you to try and mix some blue runs into your next day on the mountain.


Actually this reminds me of when I taught my brother in law to board about 10 years ago. We spent a run or two on the greens and got him used to standing up on the thing, then went to a blue where there was actually some pitch.

It might sound weird but I think it's actually beneficial to be on a hill with the pitch of an easy blue. You've got the keep you edge higher just to heel or toe slide, and I think it makes it easier to grasp the concept of keeping your downhill edge up at all times.


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## srdeo

Don't try to push yourself too much just to keep up with your fiance. You will end up hurting yourself. Go with what is comfortable for you. It will especially important for you since you already have bad knees. Until you feel comfortable going fast don't. Have your fiance ride switch. You will prob ride at similar speed.

Keep pushing yourself. Just don't try to keep up with someone well beyond your skill level.


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## Irahi

appage said:


> you said you're going to wait until your bored of greens and bombing them until you move to blues. i assume that your beyond the stage of falling on your ass every 2 seconds and can link turns on a semi-regular basis. if thats the case then i would really encourage you to try and mix some blue runs into your next day on the mountain.


The OP is riding at Snoqualmie central, which unfortunately has no good terrain in between super shallow greens and impressively difficult blues with some really long flat sections that necessitate holding a lot of speed. She'd have to drive over to Alpental to do her blues, and the Sessel lift over there that has some relatively mellow blue terrain isn't always turning.


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## 566487

Irahi said:


> The OP is riding at Snoqualmie central, which unfortunately has no good terrain in between super shallow greens and impressively difficult blues with some really long flat sections that necessitate holding a lot of speed. She'd have to drive over to Alpental to do her blues, and the Sessel lift over there that has some relatively mellow blue terrain isn't always turning.


Well that kinda sucks. But on the upside, long flat sections is where I first got really comfortable with speed. Knowing that if I didn't keep my speed up that I'd have to walk or skate for awhile was quite the motivator. :thumbsup: Once she can handle the difficulty of those runs, maybe that will help cure her speed fear.


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## PNWRider

handscreate said:


> Yes, literally grab your left pant leg (regular) at the thigh or knee, but don't grab your actual leg - just the pants. This will help put you in a forward leaned position without over doing it. It will also help keep your shoulders parallel with the board, which is proper riding stance.


This sounds like a good trick. Can't wait to try it! 



handscreate said:


> As far as advancing to blues, I am an advocate for pushing yourself to progress. If you can link a turn, or even just do J or C turns on a green or on the bunny slope, you can do it on a blue. It may seem scarier because of the pitch of the run, but you can always side slip down to a flatter area & begin your turns from there. Some steep runs scare the crap out of me & I side slip down until I reach a place where I'm comfortable turning down the mountain & linking my turns to get down. Work on linking your turns on greens & blues before you become too concerned with bombing straight down.


I understand what you're saying, but the only reason I was concerned with bombing straight down was so that I dont chicken out when attempting to do a toeside turn and the board is pointing straight down the fall line for a couple of seconds. I feel that if I cannot handle those 2 seconds of fall line on a green, then I can't really handle it on a blue either. 



handscreate said:


> Your fiance can wait at the lift for you if she's going that much faster than you are (especially since it sounds like you're giving this a shot for her, which is awesome btw!).


Thanks! I'm totally fine with doing the shallow greens by myself and working my way up while she's off on her own though, so I'm not rushing to try to catch up with her or anything. 



handscreate said:


> Get some decent padded shorts, like the Pro-Tec IPS Hip shorts


Just bought the last medium size of these padded shorts in the greater Seattle area tonight on my way home


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## PNWRider

srdeo said:


> Don't try to push yourself too much just to keep up with your fiance. You will end up hurting yourself. Go with what is comfortable for you. It will especially important for you since you already have bad knees. Until you feel comfortable going fast don't. Have your fiance ride switch. You will prob ride at similar speed.
> 
> Keep pushing yourself. Just don't try to keep up with someone well beyond your skill level.


Thanks for the note of caution. I'm definitely not trying to keep with her! Not for another season at least. I want to be able to confidently link turns on greens before trying to link them on blues, but perhaps that is the wrong way to thinkg about it.


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## PNWRider

Irahi said:


> The OP is riding at Snoqualmie central, which unfortunately has no good terrain in between super shallow greens and impressively difficult blues with some really long flat sections that necessitate holding a lot of speed. She'd have to drive over to Alpental to do her blues, and the Sessel lift over there that has some relatively mellow blue terrain isn't always turning.


I'm a "he" actually  I'll be at Cypress Mountain the next two sundays so maybe I'll try a steeper slope there.


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## Irahi

PNWRider said:


> I'm a "he" actually  I'll be at Cypress Mountain the next two sundays so maybe I'll try a steeper slope there.


Ah, well... whoops.

At any rate, if you're going to be in the PNW for next year as well, you'll want to spend a lot of time at Snoqualmie summit west on the Pacific Crest lift (during the week, if you can swing it, weekends are crowded as hell on that run.) That hill in particular has some of the best low-mid level learning terrain I've ever seen, but it's closed for the season now.

For this season, keep an eye on the lift status for alpental, and try to get over there when Sessel is running. It's in between the difficulty of Central Express and Holiday, and doesn't have anything so flat that you'll get stuck when you wipe out. Do not get on the big main lift (Armstrong Express.) You will regret it bitterly.


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## otisdelarosa

poutanen said:


> Otherwise, it's way better to stay on an edge. I think it's sloppy boarding to flatbase. Do very light carves but you're pretty much bombing. I do this on all long traverses, it's actually faster than flatbasing, and you rest each set of muscles every few seconds or so (instead of getting calf pump or quad pump by the end of the traverse).
> 
> Also, not sure what the hype is about keeping your weight centred. You actually need to have your weight in all different areas depending on the snow, your speed, etc. Best way to feel out what weight does is to start off heelsliding, then gradually put more weight on your front foot, then back to centre, then towards your back foot.


I agree. Above all, stay focus and keep calm.


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## PNWRider

poutanen said:


> Do very light carves but you're pretty much bombing.


How do you do a "light" carve? I thought one needs to really dig the edge into the snow in order to carve (and therefore eliminate any sideslip).


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## handscreate

PNWRider said:


> This sounds like a good trick. Can't wait to try it!


I hope it works well for you! Make sure you keep your athletic stance up while doing this. 




PNWRider said:


> I understand what you're saying, but the only reason I was concerned with bombing straight down was so that I dont chicken out when attempting to do a toeside turn and the board is pointing straight down the fall line for a couple of seconds. I feel that if I cannot handle those 2 seconds of fall line on a green, then I can't really handle it on a blue either.


Ok, now I understand it. That's a natural fear when you're starting out. It's scary as shit to think about the board just pointing down the mountain & picking up speed when you're first getting started. Now that we've gotten that out of the way, stop thinking about the fear of pointing down the mountain. A trick I taught a friend was to bend his knees deeper when initiating a turn & straighten them out (back to a loose athletic stance) to finish the turn. What is your stance on your board? (angles, width?) I ask, because I think a duck stance is an easier way to gain control when starting out & the knee bending move works extremely well in a duck stance. No need to go to crazy angles, but it's something to consider & play with, maybe starting around +9/-9 or +12/-12. It's a more natural position for your knees to bend also, which will make the bending to initiate a turn trick a little easier to get down. It also occurs more naturally with a duck stance. 

Try this on some greens & link a few turns successfully. Then try it on a milder blue, or a milder section of a blue run. Link a couple turns successfully on a blue & then consider going to another green & continuing to link turns on what is now much tamer terrain. Continue doing this back & forth, side slipping when needed. I would also suggest spending some time side slipping & traversing on your toe edge, since it seems turning to your toe side edge is scaring you a little. 

Bombing down a green is really unnecessary to build the confidence needed to make the toe side turns. If I were you I'd work on linking turns successfully & being on a edge while picking up some speed as you make wide(r) S-turns or work on linking your C-turns. As long as you can hold a heel edge & a toe edge, you can stop. So don't be afraid to point the board down the fall line in these transitions. Worst case, you can always bail & fall (just be sure you don't put your hands out in front of you to stop the fall!!!). As Mixie said earlier, learning to fall is imperative to progressing in this sport, since you'll likely fall while pushing yourself to progress




PNWRider said:


> Thanks! I'm totally fine with doing the shallow greens by myself and working my way up while she's off on her own though, so I'm not rushing to try to catch up with her or anything.


No worries. I was just throwing that out there in case you felt you were being pressured to keep up with your fiance. I have no doubt she would wait for you in that case, but I don't know her so I have no idea, haha. It may be a good idea to ask her to go down a run with you, with her leading so you can watch what she's doing to link turns, etc. Maybe she can watch you ride & give you some pointers as well? 




PNWRider said:


> Just bought the last medium size of these padded shorts in the greater Seattle area tonight on my way home


Hope you like them. They're great for keeping your ass padded & warm in the event you're sitting (or landing) in the snow for any period of time.


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## edlo

*Act like a Kid , Karate Kid*

Do at your own risk
The fear is pain in a fall, lack of control, undesirable speed.

Break it down into components. Mixie is right about falling. Also I found I fall more and harder on the flat area then steeper, it is like riding a bike very very slowly, go too slow and you fall. I don't like wrist braces because it teaches you it is okay to fall open handed and twisting on it.

On dry ground improve core/stomach muscles mental exercise

1) Jump up and pull your knees to your stomach, not feet to butt . try one leg at a time - the pulling up of your knee is going to teach you how to be light on your feet, also land softly in control and quietly. If you play basketball, think double pump. You will jump off your toes and land on your toes. Why- Sometime you might be driving the toe edge for a hard carve or panic braking on ice, when you board skips, jumps, slides, starts to get away from you, like when you hit a hard ice patch. Usually what will happen is , there is no more resistance on the board and your body becomes fully extended and you fall. Instead try pulling your board back to save it , or tuck into the fetal position. You may not understand it but your muscles will figure it out. The landing light on your feet will have you "save it"

2) Calf stretch toe lifts.

3) maintain your PT drills, 

4) Although bad, stretch your neck , look over your left shoulder

Learn to Fall

-Throw a bunch of pillows and blankets on your bed, stand knee straight and fall face first, you can try to catch yourself with your arms - This is catching your front edge and face planting. 

-Now try as you fall bend at your waist bend your knees fall think fetal position, hug yourself and try to impact with a larger surface area of your body. upper arm, shoulder. Sure could dislocate something but you could also break an arm , or get a spiral forearm fracture catching yourself.

-Try it backwards - like Loosing your heel edge ,"heel staking", falling up hill, or worse catching heel edge down hill , head plant backwards, you bell will be rung, so avoid it.

-Now try as you fall tuck, chest to knees and roll with it, there is a falling technique of using your arms surface area to disperse the energy, maybe you can find a youtube video, it is taught in martial arts.

Now you know how to fall lesson learned, never hit the ground fully extended, it hurts. 

Confidence knowing it wont hurt as much it part of the fear.

Foot work - for now your left foot leads and your right foot follows or doing the opposite , this opposite action will change as you get faster. sit on the couch feet on the floor put some of your weight on your feet. lift your toes and go one your heels, move just your left toes down and lift your left heel (turn initiated) , hold a second ( board now pointing down hill) now do the same with the right foot ( riding toe edge now ). Now put your left heel down and lift your toes, and have your left foot follow. You are doing s-turns now. Keep doing it, The opposite motion will help prevent catching the down hill edge. You won't be actually steering with your just your feet, but it is the opposing action you are learning, to prevent edge catching.

Now stand , you are now on your board. if you try to steer by leaning forward , you will fall on your face, if you try to lean back, you will fall on the couch, so no leaning. Think karate kid your right leg is your bad leg, you can't put weight on it , you don't have to lift your arms in the air. If you put too much weight on your uphill foot, gravity will turn it into the downhill foot. Hop up and down on just your left, this is your dominant leg.

Daniel san - remember your right leg is bad, learn to do a forward roll, try it, you'll see your left legs bend , weight goes to the ball of your left foot , bend at your waist , hand hits the ground, weight is off your right leg ,top of your shoulder hits , and you tumble, if you do it slowly and stop at the point when you reach for the ground, but still balanced on your feet, this is your toe edge turn.

Now imagine, you are bout to sit a a chair but you are unsure if it is strong enough, so you slowly bend without totally committing to sit, you still have a bad right leg. If you get to the point where you actually sit down, then you would have fallen on the snow, so remember weight is aways on your feet.

To break, after the board points down hill, your right let will follow, now add more weight as it follows the left foot , and the board will stop.
Now gain the confidence knowing you can slow down if you get too fast.

Now for the mountain. whenever you ride an edge , try to over exaggerate and lift the other edge, you will do this by bending your knees.

Now point the board down hill, try the forward roll motion and sit on the chair drill, It is not the speed that you are scared of , but the stopping , you will quickly develop your stopping and turning stills.

I have very low ankle flexibility, so for me to get low, I have to bend at the waist or create heel lift.

Probably the longest post in my life.

good luck


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## PNWRider

Snowolf said:


> Where in the Pacific Northwest are you? We might be able to spand half a day together clinicing these topics...:thumbsup:


That would be amazing. I'm in Seattle and alternate weekends in Vancouver BC. I was contemplating trying to make a trip down to Portland to try to book a class with you at Meadows but given my personal situation, my fiance and I are constantly driving back and forth between Seattle and BC, so a weekend to drive to Oregon is rare. I was sorry & sad to read about recent events with your former work place. Unbelievable that the management there cannot recognize true talent! 



> For drills, it really sounds to me like you are intimidated by the toeside transisiton.


Pretty much  I've tried to read every thread I could on this topic. I can transition from toeside to heelside with proper weight distribution so I *know* what a proper heel-to-toe should feel like (versus kicking out the back leg), but just can't do it! 




> Next, go back to heelside Garlands. Why you might ask work heelside? Because it is generally the transition from heel to letting the board "point" that is the scary part for most people.


 Spot on. 



> Do NOT pressure the toe of the back foot UNTIL the turn is well established; about 45 degrees is ideal


OK, so back foot remains flat until the turn is 45 degree off the fall line.



> I have been helping Vicki on these


I've read up on almost all of Vicki's threads to learn as much as I could (very impressive & rapid progress! Kudos to her). So rapid in fact, that after her first couple of posts, the information was beyond my level  

The cowboy stance sounds interesting. I'll try that on the slopes on Sunday. 

Thanks for all the advice Snowolf! I'll let you know how it goes.


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## edlo

Pretty much  I've tried to read every thread I could on this topic. I can transition from toeside to heelside with proper weight distribution so I *know* what a proper heel-to-toe should feel like (versus kicking out the back leg), but just can't do it! 

Bend ,squat, slowly rise up using just your left leg, this will put weight just on your left to pick up the necessary speed to turn. if you stand before getting the board pointing down hill, repeat, don't try to put weight on your rear foot unless you have a little bit of speed, hard to describe, you have to develop your own feeling.


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## edlo

*Don't fight gravity too hard.*

One: Relax front foot and allow the board`s nose to slip down the fall line.

With weigh in the front add a little right heel drag and the nose will fall down the fall line. try to torque the board a little.

(Leftfoot/RightFoot) heel/heel, then flat/heel ,then toe/heel, then toe/flat, then toe/toe this is when you are cutting across the fall line

Going with the fall line is easier. When teaching my wife, I didn't teach her to go across until later. When you go across you have 2 forces, your momentum going where your nose is pointing , plus gravity pulling you down the fall line. When you momentum unexpected stops, it is easy to fall down the fall line and hit your head or face. Pointing straight down a flat green run , you are not fighting gravity hard.


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## poutanen

Snowolf said:


> The "hype" is that almost every new rider leans way back up the hill and it is a difficult thing thing for them to stop. There are two main reasons for this. One, we instinctively lean away from anything that scares us. A steep hill in front of us causes us to lean away from it. Moving objects coming at as and we do the same. The second and more important reason is out Vestibular Sense. The fluid in the inner ear gives us one of our primary senses of balance and causes us to stand vertically. On a hill, this sense causes us to be way in the back seat instead of perpendicular to the snow.


Fair enough, I'm assuming that's why most people can't pivot the board underneath them when they first are trying to link turns? I see a lot of them almost riding the tail out of their now failed turn! lol 

I just thought that weight control was a pretty basic part of boarding. (i.e. that people got it on day 2 kinda thing).


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## poutanen

PNWRider said:


> How do you do a "light" carve? I thought one needs to really dig the edge into the snow in order to carve (and therefore eliminate any sideslip).


I'll post a vid when I get to work, basically you're just rocking back and forth on your board. Don't kick your back foot and try to rotate the board, just lightly lean and let the sidecut of the board turn for you, then rock back onto the other edge and do the same thing.

Only difference between a light carve and a heavy carve is board angle. A light carve your non-contact edge will only be 1" or so off the snow, a heavy carve would have your board anywhere from 20-60 degrees or so.


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## wrathfuldeity

pnw, if hitting at baker, i'll try to meet, and you will get comfortable on bombing greens ...cause you will be doing blacks  and after that a green will look like the shallow end of the pool where the pee happens. And don't worry about carving...heavy or light...you are not there yet with the skills.


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## Liv4Sno

Also, download this app that works with your GPS on your smart phone.

AlpineReplay – Ski app | Snowboard app | Ultimate Bragging Rights for Skiers and Snowboarders

It will help you keep track of your runs and the speed on the runs...


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## PNWRider

Snowolf said:


> when you are making these open ended type turns, you don`t wait until the board is across the fall line to initiate the new turn


I am not able to visualize this statement, although I've seen you write it a few times on other threads. From your "by the numbers" below, I thought the board should cross the fall line as I apply toe pressure with the leading foot, and then I apply pressure on the back toes to complete the turn. Does this not mean the board is across the fall line before I start the heelside turn?

Or by "across the fall line" do you mean that in a C-shaped turn, the board should be full perpendicular to the fall line before I start the next turn, whereas in an S-shaped turn, I start the next turn when the board is just, say, 45 degrees off the fall line?



Snowolf said:


> One: Relax front foot and allow the board`s nose to slip down the fall line.
> 
> Two: When the board is pointed down the fall line, relax the rear foot as well. You will be flat based for half a tic here.
> 
> Three: Apply toe pressure with JUST the front foot (along with the other body movements discussed).
> 
> Four: At the halfway mark (about 45 degrees) apply pressure with the back foot so you finish the turn solidly on the toe edge.


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## poutanen

PNWRider said:


> Or by "across the fall line" do you mean that in a C-shaped turn, the board should be full perpendicular to the fall line before I start the next turn, whereas in an S-shaped turn, I start the next turn when the board is just, say, 45 degrees off the fall line?


Yeah, I think what he means by across the fall line is when you turn to the point that you're travelling at 90 degrees from the fall line (ie. straight down the hill). I've seen guys on carving boards go even beyond this though and actually performed the transition while going slightly uphill even!


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## wrathfuldeity

Pnw...you are getting way ahead of your self. Get the basics of confidently linking turns on greens/blues, abit of bombing through the flats and on cats, get your body alignment, mechanics and coordination down. I say get it together to do the small things efficiently, e.g., exiting the ramp, strapin without sitting, skating and gliding 1 footy and your terrain sight reading. Because after you get that down, then you will have a plateau phase where then you will need to find some folks that will challenge you to keep up...by mobbing around. But currently, don't worry about open/closed s turns, fall lines and transitions while going up hill. Progression is not a smooth trajectory, the best thing to do now is to ride at every opportunity. 

It sounds like you are a visual learner but alot of boarding...especially in the pnw because of the poor vis, the variable terrain and conditions...is by feel. When I was learning at Baker, it was like omfg I want some place with big open mellow smooth runs where I can see...not this chopped up narrow shit where you cant see.


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## PNWRider

wrathfuldeity said:


> Pnw...you are getting way ahead of your self.
> ...
> But currently, don't worry about open/closed s turns, fall lines and transitions while going up hill. Progression is not a smooth trajectory, the best thing to do now is to ride at every opportunity.


I understand. I was just asking because Snowolf said to forget about C turns and just focus on S turns and I didnt know what the difference was. 



wrathfuldeity said:


> When I was learning at Baker, it was like omfg I want some place with big open mellow smooth runs where I can see...not this chopped up narrow shit where you cant see.


I hate Baker! That's where the tow rope got me! Plus that rolly poly green run has a really steep offload lift ramp and really narrow runs.


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## jdang307

This is my third year, but I don't get out a lot (too far away and busy). Maybe 15 days a year. On my last trip I finally got over a hump of going fast. Once it clicks, it clicks. A damp board helps.

What actually helped me was once I learned how to get down fast a Squaw black that was bumpy as shit (I don't know what the term is called, I call it jello legs) I found that I was so confident in my body control that I was able to go even faster on smooth parts.


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## wrathfuldeity

PNWRider said:


> I hate Baker! That's where the tow rope got me! Plus that rolly poly green run has a really steep offload lift ramp and really narrow runs.


lol...I love Baker...now. Its a place that either kills you or as the saying goes..."if you can ride Baker you can ride anyplace". Where else can you ride chop, to drop, to waist deep with face shots, to chute with wall ride, through the trees, to moguls to finish with an iced groomer in 1 short run.


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## NWBoarder

wrathfuldeity said:


> lol...I love Baker...now. Its a place that either kills you or as the saying goes..."if you can ride Baker you can ride anyplace". Where else can you ride chop, to drop, to waist deep with face shots, to chute with wall ride, through the trees, to moguls to finish with an iced groomer in 1 short run.


Best description of Baker ever right here.


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## PNWRider

Alright, just got back from Cypress Mountain near Vancouver BC. 

Here is what I tried and the results: 
1) Developed a feel for a 60-40 weight distribution on flat ground in order to try to reproduce it on the slope.
2) Grabbed my pants at the front knee while on the slope. This helped a lot in keeping my weight centered or forward (but I still leaned backwards on a steeper green; more on that later)
3) Did toe-side falling leaves as Snowolf suggested on the top (steeper) part of the run. I definitely need more time on the toe-edge. Feet start to burn very quickly. 
4) On the middle of the run I did heel-side garlands
5) On the lower part of the run, I linked turns. After two goes like this, I was able to link turns from the top of the run!

After the lunch break, my fiance and I went on a steeper green run. I had some challenges here. The run is very narrow (Panorama @ Cypress) so I had difficulty making toeside turns because I was afraid of falling off the side of the run! I also had more trouble keeping my weight forward/centered because the is steeper than the "Easy Rider" run I was doing before. Also, Panorama was much icier due to the higher traffic. 

Plan of action: Next week I'll be back on Easy Rider for one run because I believe the challenge on Panorama should make Easy Rider a confident run for me, allowing me to reinforce my learning. After that, I'll go back on Panorama and try to get used to the increased steepness and speed.


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## PNWRider

Additional questions/sticking points: I noticed that my toe edge takes longer/more pressure to engage than my heel edge. My theories are one or more of the following. 

1) Either my weight is still not forward enough. On the easier green, I don't think this was the case today
2) Or I'm not bending the front knee enough/not rotating it inwards enough
3) Or maybe there's something wrong with the edging on my board? My board is five years old now but I've hardly ridden it so I doubt this is the case but I've also not taken good care of it and some of the metal on the edge is slightly rusted. 
4) I find it near impossible to make a toe-side turn on hard-packed snow that is almost ice; the edge is not able to grab hold and then I freak out thatI'm not turning, end up leaning too much to try to make the board turn, and then fall. 

I tried the cowboy technique that Snowolf suggested on some turns but haven't integrated it in fully yet. 

What do you guys think?


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## jdang307

PNWRider said:


> Additional questions/sticking points: I noticed that my toe edge takes longer/more pressure to engage than my heel edge. My theories are one or more of the following.
> 
> 1) Either my weight is still not forward enough. On the easier green, I don't think this was the case today
> 2) Or I'm not bending the front knee enough/not rotating it inwards enough
> 3) Or maybe there's something wrong with the edging on my board? My board is five years old now but I've hardly ridden it so I doubt this is the case but I've also not taken good care of it and some of the metal on the edge is slightly rusted.
> 4) I find it near impossible to make a toe-side turn on hard-packed snow that is almost ice; the edge is not able to grab hold and then I freak out thatI'm not turning, end up leaning too much to try to make the board turn, and then fall.
> 
> I tried the cowboy technique that Snowolf suggested on some turns but haven't integrated it in fully yet.
> 
> What do you guys think?


Are your boots centered on the board? Are your boots tight? Do you have a ton of heel lift? You mentioned foot burn earlier. That happens to me when my boots are not tight and I have heel lift. Just a few things to check out. It also might be a balance issue -


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## wrathfuldeity

PNWRider said:


> Additional questions/sticking points: I noticed that my toe edge takes longer/more pressure to engage than my heel edge. My theories are one or more of the following.
> 
> 1) Either my weight is still not forward enough. On the easier green, I don't think this was the case today
> 2) Or I'm not bending the front knee enough/not rotating it inwards enough
> 3) Or maybe there's something wrong with the edging on my board? My board is five years old now but I've hardly ridden it so I doubt this is the case but I've also not taken good care of it and some of the metal on the edge is slightly rusted.
> 4) I find it near impossible to make a toe-side turn on hard-packed snow that is almost ice; the edge is not able to grab hold and then I freak out thatI'm not turning, end up leaning too much to try to make the board turn, and then fall.
> 
> I tried the cowboy technique that Snowolf suggested on some turns but haven't integrated it in fully yet.
> 
> What do you guys think?


Also rotate your head and leading shoulder...alot of newbs want to twist/counter-rotate around and look down the hill. On and going toeside LOOK UP the hill to rotate your shoulder and head.


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## sabatoa

Donutz said:


> QFT! I've seen far more carnage on the tow rope than on any chair lift, especially if the lifties aren't flattening out the track regularly.
> 
> .


Double QFT

A tow rope was where I had my worst injury, lead to arthroscopic surgery on my ankle. Damn tow rope.


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## PNWRider

jdang307 said:


> Are your boots centered on the board? Are your boots tight? Do you have a ton of heel lift? You mentioned foot burn earlier. That happens to me when my boots are not tight and I have heel lift. Just a few things to check out. It also might be a balance issue -


I think the boots are centered. I've had problems with the boots being loose before (twisted an ankle that way once) so I try to make them as tight as possible. I have one of those "easy-lace" boot mechanisms that you pull the laces through these locking devices. I yank the laces as hard as I can and retighten every few runs. 

I sometimes get a bit of heel lift, which prompts me to retighten.


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## PNWRider

wrathfuldeity said:


> Also rotate your head and leading shoulder...alot of newbs want to twist/counter-rotate around and look down the hill. On and going toeside LOOK UP the hill to rotate your shoulder and head.


I'm rotating the head, but perhaps not the shoulder. I know I'm supposed to do a slight rotation of the shoulder but I'm fearful of getting into the habit of steering with the shoulders so perhaps I underdo the rotation. I'll try that next weekend


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## poutanen

PNWRider said:


> I think the boots are centered. I've had problems with the boots being loose before (twisted an ankle that way once) so I try to make them as tight as possible. I have one of those "easy-lace" boot mechanisms that you pull the laces through these locking devices. I yank the laces as hard as I can and retighten every few runs.
> 
> I sometimes get a bit of heel lift, which prompts me to retighten.


Hmmm, it sounds like your boots might be too big for you. This a pretty common when buying boots, as we tend to buy for comfort. Your longest toe should be just grazing the front of the boot (barely) when brand new and standing up. There shouldn't be much heel lift even with the laces only moderately tight.

Having to retighten every few runs is a bad sign. If I tighten my laces too much my feet will hurt because it's actually cutting off the circulation!

FWIW I wear an 8.5 shoe but I'm in 7.5 boots now and they feel fantastic. I had 9s before and thought they fit well until I tried on something that ACTUALLY fit...


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## wrathfuldeity

PNWRider said:


> I'm rotating the head, but perhaps not the shoulder. I know I'm supposed to do a slight rotation of the shoulder but I'm fearful of getting into the habit of steering with the shoulders so perhaps I underdo the rotation. I'll try that next weekend



Don't worry about you shoulder steering...hopefully you are already driving with your knee, i.e., torsional twisting. So you just need to get your whole body doing the same thing...starting from the bottom up...knee, hip and shoulder. Btw I still tend to counter rotate my shoulder and tend to look down hill and this past weekend when too tired to bomb; did a few black runs practicing looking back up hill to really engage the toeside to slow down and really control my speed instead of doing open-s bombs.


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## handscreate

PNWRider said:


> Alright, just got back from Cypress Mountain near Vancouver BC.
> 
> Here is what I tried and the results:
> 1) Developed a feel for a 60-40 weight distribution on flat ground in order to try to reproduce it on the slope.
> 2) Grabbed my pants at the front knee while on the slope. This helped a lot in keeping my weight centered or forward (but I still leaned backwards on a steeper green; more on that later)
> 3) Did toe-side falling leaves as Snowolf suggested on the top (steeper) part of the run. I definitely need more time on the toe-edge. Feet start to burn very quickly.
> 4) On the middle of the run I did heel-side garlands
> 5) On the lower part of the run, I linked turns. After two goes like this, I was able to link turns from the top of the run!
> 
> After the lunch break, my fiance and I went on a steeper green run. I had some challenges here. The run is very narrow (Panorama @ Cypress) so I had difficulty making toeside turns because I was afraid of falling off the side of the run! I also had more trouble keeping my weight forward/centered because the is steeper than the "Easy Rider" run I was doing before. Also, Panorama was much icier due to the higher traffic.
> 
> Plan of action: Next week I'll be back on Easy Rider for one run because I believe the challenge on Panorama should make Easy Rider a confident run for me, allowing me to reinforce my learning. After that, I'll go back on Panorama and try to get used to the increased steepness and speed.


Perhaps you're still mentally freaking out about the idea of leaning down towards the base of the hill? It's fairly normal at first, but it's something you'll need to psych yourself out of. I was hoping the tip I gave you about holding your pants/knee while riding would help keep you from thinking about it, so you could focus on your progression & just get comfortable with the position. When you notice yourself getting in the backseat while holding your pants, try grabbing a little further down your leg, or even over your knee cap if needed. 

Consider incorporating calf raises into your workout to strengthen them - just give yourself a few days between doing them and riding or your calves will be killing you - especially if you're not used to this exercise. If your heel is lifting in your boots, consider putting j-bars in to hold your heel in place. If your boots are way too big, consider buying another pair in the right size. 

That's awesome that you're linking turns down the whole run!!! I'd suggest working on your toe side falling leaf to strengthen that ability & build more confidence in your toe side. If you're having issues turning toe side or holding the leaf toe side, you may want to look up the mountain, as it should cause you to naturally turn a little easier (this should be done as you start to turn toe-side to help complete the turn).

Now that you're successfully linking turns from the top of the run to the bottom, I suggest continuing to do so & consider an easier blue run to try linking turns on. Successful or not here, go back to a green you feel comfortable on & practice some more. When you feel comfortable after a few runs, consider trying an easier blue again, the same or another. 

Congrats on the progress so far! Now you just need to practice as much as you can to develop some muscle memory for the rest of this season & the start of next


As far as steering with your shoulder...riding with open shoulders is a really bad habit. Consider steering with your foot & knee. It will hopefully prevent you from developing some bad riding habits that will be difficult to break later down the line


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## PNWRider

poutanen said:


> your boots might be too big for you.


I was hoping this was not the case, but I'll go to a proper snowboarding store after work today to see what a proper fit feels like. I bought my boots at a snowboarding/skiiing convention where prices were cheap but there was very little attention to make sure stuff fit properly.


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## PNWRider

handscreate said:


> Perhaps you're still mentally freaking out about the idea of leaning down towards the base of the hill?


On the steeper green, yes. 



handscreate said:


> I was hoping the tip I gave you about holding your pants/knee while riding would help keep you from thinking about it, so you could focus on your progression & just get comfortable with the position. When you notice yourself getting in the backseat while holding your pants, try grabbing a little further down your leg, or even over your knee cap if needed.


Yes, this helped a lot! I'll try holding lower. One thing I noticed was that toe-side, I tended to bend over at the waist a lot, rather than keeping my torso upright and just flexing the knees and ankles. I need to watch that.



handscreate said:


> Consider incorporating calf raises into your workout to strengthen them


Already doing them last few weeks 



handscreate said:


> That's awesome that you're linking turns down the whole run!!!


Thanks! To be fair though, it was the easiest possible green run at that mountain. There are other greens there that are still challenging for me, so can't move to the blues just yet.


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## handscreate

PNWRider said:


> Thanks! To be fair though, it was the easiest possible green run at that mountain. There are other greens there that are still challenging for me, so can't move to the blues just yet.


Then just try for steeper or harder greens instead & work up to blues once those become a little easier & more comfortable. Being in the backseat is a mental game that you'll have to work on. You won't fall over the front of the board & you won't pick up excess speed by having proper form. 

On the toe side turns, work on keeping your torso straight & bending your knees more.

Glad the tips have helped so far!


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## BarryYung42

Same thign happened for me when i started riding two months ago. I got some help at camp while i was riding with the guest pro. He told me to keep my knees bent so when you hit bumps you wont bounce out of control and to keep your shoulders even with your board/to the direction your going. If your doign s turns and stuff make sure you kick your back leg out and keep your edge that your not on high to asure you don't catch an edge. idk if this will help but i can succsefully go down black runs after two months of riding. Also riding with people alot better than you helps alot because it urges you to keep up therefore expanding your tolorence for high speeds.


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