# Need Suggestions on Cars



## AssassinMonLV (Jan 15, 2013)

Hey all,
Its been a long time since I've been here. I'm entering in my 3rd year of college and I am in need of car as I'd like to stop having my friends take me everywhere when I want to do something. Anyways I'm trying to decide between a Focus ST and a Subaru Forester 2.0 XT. They'd be used. All I need this car to do is be my daily and in the winter I'll need to be able take 4 friends, 4 snowboards, and a pair of skis cross country. The Focus is way more fun to drive but I think that even with a rack on top I wouldn't be able to carry 4 guys and camping gear in the back. I still need to go try out the Forester.

Any suggestions?


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## Argo (Feb 25, 2010)

How about that little subaru xv crossover car/Suv, they are pretty nice and very functional


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## AssassinMonLV (Jan 15, 2013)

I was thinking of that but 150 hp isn't enough. I was hoping to stay above 200 hp and torque. That leaves the WRX, Forester, and Outback in Subaru's lineup. Used WRX are very expensive their mileages compared to that of the Focus ST. The Forester XTs are reasonably priced for the mileages they have, the outbacks are good as well but they seem to be more expensive than foresters where I am.


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## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

150hp isn't enough for what?


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## tanscrazydaisy (Mar 11, 2013)

the Focus rear legroom is pretty bad.

the forester rear legroom is an improvement over the old one. Go with the more practical vehicle.

Wait until you graduate and score a career... then treat yourself to a fun car


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## koi (May 16, 2013)

I don't have the Forester, but I love my Subaru. I have the Legacy and it is legit for going snowboarding. Subarus are awesome. I am on my first one, and unless I can get my dream Audi S5, I will continue with the Subarus for the forceable future.


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## kosmoz (Dec 27, 2013)

Mercedes GL550


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## poutanen (Dec 22, 2011)

Assuming you're wanting to keep most of your money, why not just buy an old Camry? It'll be cheaper to purchase and maintain than the Ford or Subbie, and with a roof carrier can easily and comfortably carry 4 people and gear...

I'm a Toyota guy though. And I can't stand "hot hatch" cars... :facepalm1:


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## rambob (Mar 5, 2011)

Subie for driving in the snow.....


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## slyder (Jan 18, 2010)

as mentioned your in college and it sounds like your blurring Wants Vs Need
You want a boosted AWD you need 4 wheels and dependable :happy:

SO my vote is a 4 door Honda or Toyota. Repairs are very reasonable when they do break, which is rarely. Subie parts are expensive. Finding an un-molested boosted Subie is sometimes hard. Insurance is much higher as well. 

The Ford again same thing. Nice sporty car, but not what you "need" right now. 
Get something to last these last few years then get what you want as money should be slightly less an issue.

Yes I ordered my very first brand new car at 21, a Ford Mustang GT and played hard with it. Looking back one of the worst things I did. Paid it off in 2 yrs but not where my attention should have been. 
Been there done that, easier to speak from hind sight. Knowledge and wisdom that comes from being old !!


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## mojo maestro (Jan 6, 2009)

I hear you can pick up a VW tdi pretty cheap nowadays.


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## SnowDogWax (Nov 8, 2013)

poutanen said:


> Assuming you're wanting to keep most of your money, why not just buy an old Camry? It'll be cheaper to purchase and maintain than the Ford or Subbie, and with a roof carrier can easily and comfortably carry 4 people and gear...
> 
> I'm a Toyota guy though. And I can't stand "hot hatch" cars... :facepalm1:


+1 This would be my suggestion also








:eyetwitch2:


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## kosmoz (Dec 27, 2013)

mojo maestro said:


> I hear you can pick up a VW tdi pretty cheap nowadays.


No awd option on diesels and vag is buying these to imitate prices in second hand marked were not influenced by dieselgate


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## bksdds (Jul 2, 2015)

You didn't specify mpg preferences or max on total cost. Check these results out auto trader AWD/4WD


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## Mystery2many (Aug 14, 2013)

Honda CRV with real time all wheel drive. Plenty of room inside for year round adventures, handles great in snow, rack on top and extremely dependable, cheap to repair and great on gas.


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## f00bar (Mar 6, 2014)

If you're looking to load up 4 people for a decent haul I think a hatch is going to be lacking. Which brings you to small SUV territory.

On the more expensive end of used would be the RAV4 and CRV. Expensive being relative term for a college kid, just more expensive because they hold their value more than other options.

And those options are perhaps a Santa Fe, Escape, or Sportage. Not sure why you think you need a ton of HP or torque. And with no price range there isn't much you can get for a real answer.


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## speedjason (May 2, 2013)

4 people and storage you need to get an SUV.


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## kaner3sixteen (Feb 15, 2013)

If a small suv is out of the question, you could look at a Mitubishi Lancer with AWC. the non ralliart or EVO versions have about 180 bhp, but as a plus, get selectable all wheel drive with a lock mode. still gonna be tight size wise, but it's a little cooler, while retaining a bit of practicality.


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## KIRKRIDER (Mar 18, 2008)

175K in my 06 WRX, still loving it. 
So far I changed 1 Clutch, 1 Radiator. Besides regular maintenance of course.


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## ThredJack (Mar 18, 2014)

I loved my Forester for the brief time I owned it(They are tough, but still tend to lose to trees). Roomy with decent cargo space, without being huge(but then mine was an '04 "wagon" not the full crossover like they are now, not sure what year you're looking at). Not to mention the AWD can't be beat, and the mpg is pretty solid. I'd recommend them to anyone who needs to haul camping/snowboard/ski/rock climbing/whatever gear, a family, or a posse. Heck, I even put my amp and bass in there a few times, and it was nice to not have to jam it in like with my previous and current vehicles.


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## AssassinMonLV (Jan 15, 2013)

Doh, sorry I forgot to write down price range and mpg. I'm looking at below $20k and mpg in the mid 20s in the city and low 30s for highway.

The foresters that fit that criteria are from 2010 down. I did a bit of thinking and the ST is definitely out of the question. When I and my friends take our cross country camping and skiing trip we use a '99 Rav4 and it is really cramped with our boards strapped to the roof and gear inside. A hatch won't work and neither will a sedan. I looked at old Rav4s and they're pretty cheap. I haven't looked at CRVs yet.


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## BoardWalk (Mar 22, 2011)

I have an Outback and it has plenty of room for four people. We also have a Tahoe that we will use for five people or more gear on long trips. The Tahoe works great in the snow but the Subaru will still drive circles around it, it's pretty awesome. Go Suby


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## tanscrazydaisy (Mar 11, 2013)

also consider in your budget a set of wheels with snow tires.

AWD is going to help you get going, but stopping and steering, snow tires will help you more than AWD


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## Phedder (Sep 13, 2014)

College student with a 20k budget, damn you've got a lot of options. I manage 4 + gear just fine in my 1994 4wd Toyota Caldina. Never misses a beat!


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## ryannorthcott (Dec 17, 2010)

My mom told me I should get a Honda CR-V when it came time to buying my 2nd car at 19 (1st was a beat up old Land Cruiser). I wanted an AWD Audi A4, so found one and bought it. Never regretted it at the time and still don't regret it now. If you have a car in mind you want to get and it is a reasonable vehicle for your price range, just do it. You drive your car every day you may as well enjoy it.


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## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

You're a college student. Unless you already have a good job lined up after graduation (and by "lined up" I mean papers signed not just having a connection or having talked to someone) then I can't recommend strongly enough against spending $20k on a rapidly depreciating asset. Honestly, I'd recommend against it even if you did have something lined up.

Hell, I'm 33 with a well established career making decent money and the most I've ever spent on a vehicle is about $16k.


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## AssassinMonLV (Jan 15, 2013)

I found a 2014 Subaru Outback with 30,000 miles from a private seller that will let it go for $15k from $19K. It has an active warranty which is pretty enticing. KBB places the value of that car in "good" condition at $20K so seems to be a pretty good deal. Is that a good deal?


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## Matty_B_Bop (Jan 27, 2015)

Golf R hands down.


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## Argo (Feb 25, 2010)

AssassinMonLV said:


> I found a 2014 Subaru Outback with 30,000 miles from a private seller that will let it go for $15k from $19K. It has an active warranty which is pretty enticing. KBB places the value of that car in "good" condition at $20K so seems to be a pretty good deal. Is that a good deal?


Sounds pretty good


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## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

AssassinMonLV said:


> I found a 2014 Subaru Outback with 30,000 miles from a private seller that will let it go for $15k from $19K. It has an active warranty which is pretty enticing. KBB places the value of that car in "good" condition at $20K so seems to be a pretty good deal. Is that a good deal?


Sounds like a good deal. It'd be worth it if you drove it into the dirt.

Or hell, buy it, drive it to CO and flip it for a $5k profit. I'm only partially joking. It's crossed my mind to buy Toyota pickup trucks and 4Runners as well as Subis elsewhere - probably TX - and bring them back here to CO to sell for a profit. Toys and Subis are seemingly made of gold here.


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## mdc (Sep 23, 2008)

AssassinMonLV said:


> I found a 2014 Subaru Outback with 30,000 miles from a private seller that will let it go for $15k from $19K. It has an active warranty which is pretty enticing. KBB places the value of that car in "good" condition at $20K so seems to be a pretty good deal. Is that a good deal?


Sounds too good to be true. Have it looked at by a mechanic.


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## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

mdc said:


> Sounds too good to be true. Have it looked at by a mechanic.


This too. There's a lot of good deals on used cars out there, but there's also a lot of lemons masquerading as good deals. You don't want a lemon, warranty or not. A car that's constantly in the shop is gonna be a pain in your ass even if the work is covered. The best warranty is the one that your don't need to use.


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## bksdds (Jul 2, 2015)

OP once you decide on 1 or 2 vehicles. I'd would like to suggest that you find an online forum specifically for the vehicle(s) and ask the owners for advice on what to look for. Some even have lists of what to check/what fails at given mileage intervals. Some even have come up with solutions to prevent failures. Plus tips/tricks on making maintenance easier if you want to save money and do it yourself. Also just like any thing on the internet take the advice with a grain of salt.

Some first hand experience would be for example the water pump in my SUV. Not flushing/doing drain and fills on my coolant after so many thousands of miles it will usually fail in the 75k to 90k mile range. There is no recall or TSB for it either. Never would have known about that if I hadn't learned about it from the online forum specifically for my vehicle. I'm right in the mileage range where it would fail/leak and nothing yet. So in two more years hopefully it will still be working and all I'll need to do is just another drain and fill which costs only 20$ and my time *knocks on wood*.


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## BoardWalk (Mar 22, 2011)

linvillegorge said:


> this too. There's a lot of good deals on used cars out there, but there's also a lot of lemons masquerading as good deals. You don't want a lemon, warranty or not. A car that's constantly in the shop is gonna be a pain in your ass even if the work is covered. The best warranty is the one that your don't need to use.


+1^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


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## poutanen (Dec 22, 2011)

linvillegorge said:


> You're a college student. Unless you already have a good job lined up after graduation (and by "lined up" I mean papers signed not just having a connection or having talked to someone) then I can't recommend strongly enough against spending $20k on a rapidly depreciating asset. Honestly, I'd recommend against it even if you did have something lined up.
> 
> Hell, I'm 33 with a well established career making decent money and the most I've ever spent on a vehicle is about $16k.


Agreed. Most I've ever spent on a car was $9k and that was when I was 24. Since then I live by the stock market motto: buy low sell high! I find good deals at the auctions, drive them for a while, fix them up, and sell for a profit. Had a '98 Corolla for the wife, made $400 profit on it after she drove it for a year. Then we picked up a '90 Toyota pickup, I offroaded it, she used it for work, I took my canoe to the lake, then we sold it for $900 profit.

Buying a car as a status symbol is a bad financial move. I'd rather live in a nice house (I bought one with a rental suite in the basement too) then pay $15-20k for a car.


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## Argo (Feb 25, 2010)

I just purchased an old 1978 4x4 GMC k25 for $800 that runs really well. Started up on the first crank when I went to drive it. I could easily turn it around for $2000. My son will be driving it for his first car and we will sell it in 9 months.


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## poutanen (Dec 22, 2011)

Argo said:


> I just purchased an old 1978 4x4 GMC k25 for $800 that runs really well. Started up on the first crank when I went to drive it. I could easily turn it around for $2000. My son will be driving it for his first car and we will sell it in 9 months.


Yeah that's the way to do it! I'm building a '77 Celica now as my project car. Got the rust free rolling chassis for $1300, a used engine for $900, and rebuilding it all myself. I'll probably be into it for $6000 when all is said and done, but it'll be worth $6000 at that point. Most cars are worth much less than you put in to them.


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## kosmoz (Dec 27, 2013)

young guy buying a non sti/wrx subie or a toyota  hilarious, get a bmw 540 at least


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## ThredJack (Mar 18, 2014)

kosmoz said:


> young guy buying a non sti/wrx subie or a toyota  hilarious, get a bmw 540 at least


Some of us are just happy with something practical that runs well and fits our needs. That's why I'm looking for a small inexpensive pickup. I need a bed to haul some light loads in.


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## AssassinMonLV (Jan 15, 2013)

kosmoz said:


> young guy buying a non sti/wrx subie or a toyota  hilarious, get a bmw 540 at least


The WRX/STi are too expensive used and have most like been abused. Toyotas are very nice. The Rav4s are cheap, get good mpg, and have lots of space.


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## ThredJack (Mar 18, 2014)

AssassinMonLV said:


> The WRX/STi are too expensive used and have most like been abused. Toyotas are very nice. The Rav4s are cheap, get good mpg, and have lots of space.


I'm not likely to ever buy one used for that reason. Same as Evos, older Civics(especially 5-Spd), or any of the Nissan Z-cars. You know some kid got his hands on that thing and ran it like he was starring in the latest Fast and the Furious movie....


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## poutanen (Dec 22, 2011)

kosmoz said:


> young guy buying a non sti/wrx subie or a toyota  hilarious, get a bmw 540 at least


Am I the only one that understands this is sarcasm?!? :embarrased1:


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## f00bar (Mar 6, 2014)

poutanen said:


> Am I the only one that understands this is sarcasm?!? :embarrased1:


I have a hard time determining when its sarcasm or a Lithuanianism. Don't mean that in a bad way, btw, just that culturalisms are tough to grasp on here sometimes.


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## poutanen (Dec 22, 2011)

f00bar said:


> just that culturalisms are tough to grasp on here sometimes.


True, we know Chomps will use the smileys to convey emotion, but some of the others can get lost in translation.


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## Mizu Kuma (Apr 13, 2014)

Get a 2.5 Naturally Aspirated Forry!!!!!

Like the other guys said, Used Turbo Charged is askin for public transport, an empty wallet!!!!!


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## Phedder (Sep 13, 2014)

Mizu Kuma said:


> Get a 2.5 Naturally Aspirated Forry!!!!!
> 
> Like the other guys said, Used Turbo Charged is askin for public transport, an empty wallet!!!!!


From what I've heard, the 2.5 has head gasket problems. Not sure about the more modern ones but definitely during the 00's. Sources are Subie forums, and my dad who's a tow truck driver :hairy:

Why not look into the mid 00's 3.0L Outbacks? Chain driven bullet proof engine, plenty of power and torque without being turbo'd, AWD with enough wheel clearance. Surely you can get them for under $10k in the US?


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## 16gkid (Dec 5, 2012)

I was gonna recommend a honda element, which has insane cabin space, but its so ungodly slow, cant imagine how much slower mine would be up in the mountains. :facepalm1:


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## Mizu Kuma (Apr 13, 2014)

Phedder said:


> From what I've heard, the 2.5 has head gasket problems. Not sure about the more modern ones but definitely during the 00's. Sources are Subie forums, and my dad who's a tow truck driver :hairy:
> 
> Why not look into the mid 00's 3.0L Outbacks? Chain driven bullet proof engine, plenty of power and torque without being turbo'd, AWD with enough wheel clearance. Surely you can get them for under $10k in the US?


I've got a 3:0L Outback now, and they run into the same gasket problems!!!!!

I had an 03 Forry as well, without issue!!!!!

100% it's peeps that don't se the right oils/liquids and proper service schedules?????

* I definitely don't drive my cars with a subtle approach either!!!!! :embarrased1:


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## AssassinMonLV (Jan 15, 2013)

I decided against getting a turbo. It sucks gas mileage and demand a premium over anything. Found a couple of outbacks years 2010 and below for around $10k and under 50k miles. I found some Rav4s that are 2012s for $11k with around 35k miles. I also found some old Honda CRVs for around the same price as the Rav4s. I personally like the looks of the outback the best, nicer than the foresters.


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## bksdds (Jul 2, 2015)

I'd go for the outback.


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## kosmoz (Dec 27, 2013)

let me make my point:
1. driving a toyota or sth simillar is like skiing. Skis have two blades, you can go faster, stop in shorter distance, but snowboarding is much more fun. Toyota is not faster or anything in those lines, but it's practical, housewives loves it, just like skiing over snowboarding.
2. Who cares about MPG, when you have such low fuel prices? How much is it now, 1.9 per galon? it's 3 times cheaper than in europe.
3. 8-10 years fast forward and you will be driving a minivan with a bunch of kids in the back and wife won't allow you to have sth inpractical, enjoy your life while you can.
4. How often you need to drive with 3 friends to snowboard? Why it's you to take care of the car, not any other of your friends? Why can't you rent a truck/van/estate for a week and the rest 50 weeks drive the car you like?


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## Mizu Kuma (Apr 13, 2014)

kosmoz said:


> let me make my point:
> 1. driving a toyota or sth simillar is like skiing. Skis have two blades, you can go faster, stop in shorter distance, but snowboarding is much more fun. Toyota is not faster or anything in those lines, but it's practical, housewives loves it, just like skiing over snowboarding.
> 2. Who cares about MPG, when you have such low fuel prices? How much is it now, 1.9 per galon? it's 3 times cheaper than in europe.
> 3. 8-10 years fast forward and you will be driving a minivan with a bunch of kids in the back and wife won't allow you to have sth inpractical, enjoy your life while you can.
> 4. How often you need to drive with 3 friends to snowboard? Why it's you to take care of the car, not any other of your friends? Why can't you rent a truck/van/estate for a week and the rest 50 weeks drive the car you like?


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## kosmoz (Dec 27, 2013)

Mizu Kuma said:


>


:crazy7: TLC, 4runner, higlander and fj40, but no one mentioned them. These are the only toyotas worth buying.


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## Phedder (Sep 13, 2014)

kosmoz said:


> :crazy7: TLC, 4runner, higlander and fj40, but no one mentioned them. These are the only toyotas worth buying.


My teenage years say fuck you! Far from a practical snow vehicle, but by far the most fun car I've ever had. (Not my actual one...)


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## kosmoz (Dec 27, 2013)

Phedder said:


> My teenage years say fuck you! Far from a practical snow vehicle, but by far the most fun car I've ever had. (Not my actual one...)


how long it's not beeing manufactured and what are the odds finding a decent one?


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## Phedder (Sep 13, 2014)

Hah, far too long and far too low! When I'm settled down I'll be building one as a track car, if there's any still around by then :dunno:


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## tanscrazydaisy (Mar 11, 2013)

kosmoz said:


> let me make my point:
> 1. driving a toyota or sth simillar is like skiing. Skis have two blades, you can go faster, stop in shorter distance, but snowboarding is much more fun. Toyota is not faster or anything in those lines, but it's practical, housewives loves it, just like skiing over snowboarding.
> 2. Who cares about MPG, when you have such low fuel prices? How much is it now, 1.9 per galon? it's 3 times cheaper than in europe.
> 3. 8-10 years fast forward and you will be driving a minivan with a bunch of kids in the back and wife won't allow you to have sth inpractical, enjoy your life while you can.
> 4. How often you need to drive with 3 friends to snowboard? Why it's you to take care of the car, not any other of your friends? Why can't you rent a truck/van/estate for a week and the rest 50 weeks drive the car you like?





Faster, stops shorter and is more fun than a Toyota. Also very practical also.


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## Xperienced (Jan 13, 2015)

How about a golf gti? Or gli?


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## kosmoz (Dec 27, 2013)

tanscrazydaisy said:


> Faster, stops shorter and is more fun than a Toyota. Also very practical also.


Prety much, and comes in 3.6 4motion  toyota is the worst


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## tanscrazydaisy (Mar 11, 2013)

kosmoz said:


> Prety much, and comes in 3.6 4motion  toyota is the worst



If only one could get the vr6 4motion with a manual tyranny on it. 

So, I have a 2.0t 6mt FWD


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## slyder (Jan 18, 2010)

GTI not a cheap car, pain in the ass to work on. Tons of specialty tools needed. Goes good in the snow, built well. Again your needs are a car, wants are something else


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## Bones (Feb 24, 2008)

poutanen said:


> Agreed. Most I've ever spent on a car was $9k and that was when I was 24.
> Buying a car as a status symbol is a bad financial move.


+1

I've bought 1 brand new car in my life and paid $35000CDN for it. Drove it for 14 years without any repairs. That made the cost of ownership $2500`year but required it to be repair free for a long, long time. 

Nowadays, I buy low mileage used that need simple repairs (like brakes or alternators) from people who are scared by mechanic's quotes, fix them, drive them for 2-3 years and unload them as winter beaters.

Just sold a 2004 AWD Vibe with 170000km for $2000 and bought a 2006 rust-free AWD Escape with 90000km for $1100 (needs brakes and winter tires)


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## txb0115 (Sep 20, 2015)

Get a Bad Astro!


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## AssassinMonLV (Jan 15, 2013)

kosmoz said:


> let me make my point:
> 2. Who cares about MPG, when you have such low fuel prices? How much is it now, 1.9 per galon? it's 3 times cheaper than in europe.
> 4. How often you need to drive with 3 friends to snowboard? Why it's you to take care of the car, not any other of your friends? Why can't you rent a truck/van/estate for a week and the rest 50 weeks drive the car you like?


I care about mpg because it adds up. I did calculations for my dad on a gas truck vs. a diesel truck for his business. A diesel is a $8000 option on Super Duties and within 94,000 miles the diesel would have paid for itself. That is about 4 years of driving. The miles to break even would be even less as he constantly tows something. So mpg is a huge selling point. 

4. I never go boarding without my friends. We're all cheapskates and don't like resorts so we to stick areas where we don't have to pay and usually those places are dangerous to be out alone at.


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## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

AssassinMonLV said:


> I care about mpg because it adds up. I did calculations for my dad on a gas truck vs. a diesel truck for his business. A diesel is a $8000 option on Super Duties and within 94,000 miles the diesel would have paid for itself. That is about 4 years of driving. The miles to break even would be even less as he constantly tows something. So mpg is a huge selling point.


I have a hard time believing you'd make up that $8k upfront difference in only 94k miles considering that diesel usually runs about 10% higher than regular unleaded in price.


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## poutanen (Dec 22, 2011)

kosmoz said:


> 1. driving a toyota or sth simillar is like skiing. Skis have two blades, you can go faster, stop in shorter distance, but snowboarding is much more fun. Toyota is not faster or anything in those lines, but it's practical, housewives loves it, just like skiing over snowboarding.





kosmoz said:


> :crazy7: TLC, 4runner, higlander and fj40, but no one mentioned them. These are the only toyotas worth buying.





tanscrazydaisy said:


> Faster, stops shorter and is more fun than a Toyota. Also very practical also.


What's with all the Toyota hate? I think you guys are just trolling me lol

Here's my '77 Celica GT that I'm throwing a Supra Turbo engine into.









This was my '92 SC400 (Toyota Soarer) 4.0L quad cam all aluminium V8. Took it to the drags with 365,000 km on it and it still ran faster than they tested them in the early 90's









This was my MR2 Turbo as I bought it, I re-did a lot and finally tuned the ECU on the dyno. It made 288 rwhp and 290 lb-ft of torque at the wheels. Fun car.









And no discussions about Toyota is complete without watching this: make sure to at least 1:15 or so...


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## LA Forever (Apr 2, 2013)

poutanen said:


> Here's my '77 Celica GT that I'm throwing a Supra Turbo engine into.


2JZ goodness.... I put one of those in my 240sx a few years ago. I absolutely loved that thing.


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## f00bar (Mar 6, 2014)

If you're gonna use Top Gear as a reference then you have to be fair and talk about what they said was the worse car in history


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## poutanen (Dec 22, 2011)

LA Forever said:


> 2JZ goodness.... I put one of those in my 240sx a few years ago. I absolutely loved that thing.


Actually I went with a 7M-GTE. Was trying to find a 2JZ-GTE w/manual trans but they were few and far between. Picked up a complete 7M, trans, harness, and ECU for under $1000, and spent about $2000 rebuilding it. I'm in the final stages of the swap now 95% of the custom work is done. Just need to install the driveshaft, cut and weld the intake piping, then make an exhaust for it. Should have about 300 HP in a 2200 lb car, and the motor is built for more. Won't go over 400 hp though cause, well, why? 



f00bar said:


> If you're gonna use Top Gear as a reference then you have to be fair and talk about what they said was the worse car in history


Actually the video I posted was a private guy filming his own car on top gears track. But if you want to talk Top Gear, what car did Clarkson say was the best he'd ever driven? :hairy:

Also I think the SC430 was chosen partly to get people riled up. There's far worse cars out there for similar money. For what it's target market is, the SC430 isn't bad at all, arguably.

Have fun in your station wagons everyone!!! oke:


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## tanscrazydaisy (Mar 11, 2013)

poutanen said:


> What's with all the Toyota hate? I think you guys are just trolling me lol
> 
> 
> 
> ...



And which one do you take to the ski mountain with 3 people?

My first car was a hand-me-down FWD Corolla sedan with the 4A-LC motor with a 3-speed auto 

My second car was a used Camry with the 2VZ-FE with 5-speed manual

The current Corolla ain't bad. Driving to Bear Mountain Lakes, the 1.8 motor is quite weak. Wish I had the opportunity to snag a Jetta with the 1.8t at the rental lot

I had driven a so-called Sporty Camry SE which my cousin had for her rental car, which was anything but Sporty


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## poutanen (Dec 22, 2011)

tanscrazydaisy said:


> And which one do you take to the ski mountain with 3 people?
> 
> My first car was a hand-me-down FWD Corolla sedan with the 4A-LC motor with a 3-speed auto
> 
> ...


Bah! Actually I have a company truck I drive to the hill, it's a Ford Escape AWD, would never buy one but it's not bad. The wife has a 4Runner and I've had 3 4runners and a lifted 1990 Toyota pickup. If I had my choice of daily drivers I'd probably drive a crew cab Tacoma 4x4 manual.

If you've never driven a base model 4cyl '92 Camry to it's limits, you can't call Toyota's slow... The most non-descript car of the '90s has great brakes, will do 220 km/h (ask me how I know), and despite softer suspension and 14" rims and tires, it's actually fun to drive at the limit. Yeah, I actually had fun with a FWD car once!

Here's the Toyota's I've owned in somewhat chronological order

1982 Celica GT-S (bought it when I was 16)
1978 Celica coupe
1985 MR2
1987 Camry beater
1985 Supra with 6M-GE engine transplanted in
1989 MR2 Supercharged
1992 Camry 4 cyl
1992 Lexus SC400
1991 MR2 Turbo (with a laundry list of go fast parts incl AEM EMS, GT2860RS turbo, RMR intake mani, 6 puck clutch, etc.)
1977 RA29 Celica Liftback
1990 4Runner
1998 4Runner (V6 manual, this thing was FUN offroad)
1977 Celica GT Coupe (my current project, and will probably keep forever, it's nearly rust free)
1990 Toyota Pickup

I'm a bit of a Toyota fanboy... :hairy:

At some point I want a MKIV Supra, GT86, 2000 GT, LFA, FJ40 Landcruiser, 1970 Corona, etc. etc. etc.


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## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

The wife has an '05 4-Runner that's basically just a smaller, shittiest, weaker, less comfortable version of my Tahoe with the same mpg, but it's been great in terms of reliability. Can't say the same about the Toyota pickup I owned. That one was a complete piece of shit. Replaced a transmission first and then sold it for acrap when it threw a rod through the block. Oh, I forgot, I had to put a new rear axle in that truck too. And it wasn't like it was due to abuse, both happened while cruising along at 70 in overdrive on the interstate. Only vehicle I've ever owned that requires major drivetrain work.


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## snowklinger (Aug 30, 2011)

linvillegorge said:


> The wife has an '05 4-Runner that's basically just a smaller, shittiest, weaker, less comfortable version of my Tahoe with the same mpg, but it's been great in terms of reliability. Can't say the same about the Toyota pickup I owned. That one was a complete piece of shit. Replaced a transmission first and then sold it for acrap when it threw a rod through the block. Oh, I forgot, I had to put a new rear axle in that truck too. And it wasn't like it was due to abuse, both happened while cruising along at 70 in overdrive on the interstate. Only vehicle I've ever owned that requires major drivetrain work.


at least they don't charge a buttload for those trucks 

I hear if you are looking at a Tacoma, a Frontier is a better/equal bet without the sticker shock.


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## kosmoz (Dec 27, 2013)

poutanen said:


> What's with all the Toyota hate? I think you guys are just trolling me lol
> 
> Here's my '77 Celica GT that I'm throwing a Supra Turbo engine into.
> 
> ...


the hate is on corollas, camrys ant all mainstream shit they make and advertise as toyota quality. They used to make some good cars, but now only TLC, FJ40 and gt86 are worth attention.


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## kosmoz (Dec 27, 2013)

AssassinMonLV said:


> I care about mpg because it adds up. I did calculations for my dad on a gas truck vs. a diesel truck for his business. A diesel is a $8000 option on Super Duties and within 94,000 miles the diesel would have paid for itself. That is about 4 years of driving. The miles to break even would be even less as he constantly tows something. So mpg is a huge selling point.
> 
> 4. I never go boarding without my friends. We're all cheapskates and don't like resorts so we to stick areas where we don't have to pay and usually those places are dangerous to be out alone at.


Did you added up more expensive maintenance and much more expensive repairs of diesel? 

I don' suggest you to go alone and leave your friends behind, but why it's you to buy a car, which you will drive and maintain 50 weeks a year so you could carry your friends asses to the mountains? You'll need a winter tires to do that also. Rent it for a trip, split the cost of it and drive a civic/golf everyday as your commuter.


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## tanscrazydaisy (Mar 11, 2013)

kosmoz said:


> Did you added up more expensive maintenance and much more expensive repairs of diesel?
> 
> 
> 
> I don' suggest you to go alone and leave your friends behind, but why it's you to buy a car, which you will drive and maintain 50 weeks a year so you could carry your friends asses to the mountains? You'll need a winter tires to do that also. Rent it for a trip, split the cost of it and drive a civic/golf everyday as your commuter.



I've had a diesel car, I didn't find it to be more expensive to maintain

Do you think rental cars come with winter tires? The tires you're advocating for him? They come with all-seasons and higher mileage rentals will come with the cheapest tires the company can find.


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## kosmoz (Dec 27, 2013)

tanscrazydaisy said:


> I've had a diesel car, I didn't find it to be more expensive to maintain
> 
> Do you think rental cars come with winter tires? The tires you're advocating for him? They come with all-seasons and higher mileage rentals will come with the cheapest tires the company can find.


how long did you had it and do you live ? Diesels now always be with turbo, diesel needs glow plugs to be replaced every few years, more exensive in parts than spark plugs and much more expensive in labour to change. Diesel needs more powerfull battery, all that high pressure fuel system is delicate and sensitive. 

Ofcourse, if you dont live in cold climate, glow plugs can be dead, battery can be partly alive, but you still stuck with all that turbo thing + oil filter every other oil change. 

Rent a suburban or other full size suv, ask for chains and you're good to go.


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## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

snowklinger said:


> at least they don't charge a buttload for those trucks
> 
> I hear if you are looking at a Tacoma, a Frontier is a better/equal bet without the sticker shock.


When I bought my current Tahoe, I was also looking at 4 door Frontiers and Tacomas. Damn near bought a Frontier with a 6 speed. That Nissan 4.0 with a stick is no joke. That was a surprisingly quick little truck. I liked the look of the Tacomas better, but in terms of power, the Frontier made the Tacoma cry.


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## tanscrazydaisy (Mar 11, 2013)

kosmoz said:


> how long did you had it and do you live ? Diesels now always be with turbo, diesel needs glow plugs to be replaced every few years, more exensive in parts than spark plugs and much more expensive in labour to change. Diesel needs more powerfull battery, all that high pressure fuel system is delicate and sensitive.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



170,000 miles until a kid introduced my back to a back of a tractor trailer at highway speed

Yes, I had a turbo blow up at 160,000 miles. Which allowed me to upgrade 

On a 02 Golf TDI, the extra costs were minimal:
70% better fuel economy upgrade which mattered when I had a 80 mile daily commute

The extra capacity battery doesn't cost much more (my current car has a diesel battery)

Oil & filters are negligible, back when I was running Delvac 1, I saved money with extended oil change intervals.

Glow plugs only did it once and it was less than $100. If you're not mechanically inclined, then it will cost more

Fuel filter changes was made negligible due to money saved on Fuel, then upgraded to a Catepillar filter which costs less than OEM and lasts much longer.

My current gasoline car is also a turbocharged car. Many manufacturers these days are going turbo, including Ford

Asking a rental car agency for chains is pointless because the agency won't know how to put chains on. And the person renting won't know how to do it properly either. It will be some cheapo chain without a tensioner. So if you damage the car using chains, you'll be footing the bill


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## Tatanka Head (Jan 13, 2014)

I loved my Tacoma in the U.S. It was a 2005, bought it in 2007. I just sold it last year and only lost $2000. They hold their value well. Never compared it to the Frontier, but if the Frontier has more power then it must be a rocket ship. The Tacoma flew up and down the mountains no problem.


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## kosmoz (Dec 27, 2013)

tanscrazydaisy said:


> 170,000 miles until a kid introduced my back to a back of a tractor trailer at highway speed
> 
> Yes, I had a turbo blow up at 160,000 miles. Which allowed me to upgrade
> 
> ...


it always depends on mileage, up to 15k miles a year having a diesel is pointless, with USA fuel prices, which are a joke, compared to what we pay in europe, the milleage must be even higher. Forgot to mention more expensive clutch and flywheel. You were lucky, if you didn't have to replace a flywheel somewhere around 120k miles.


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## snowklinger (Aug 30, 2011)

OP should totally get a diesel vehicle rofl


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## tanscrazydaisy (Mar 11, 2013)

kosmoz said:


> it always depends on mileage, up to 15k miles a year having a diesel is pointless, with USA fuel prices, which are a joke, compared to what we pay in europe, the milleage must be even higher. Forgot to mention more expensive clutch and flywheel. You were lucky, if you didn't have to replace a flywheel somewhere around 120k miles.


Clutch was at 130,000 miles, because the tune I had, made it slip in the winter time.

a replacement dual mass flywheel was the same price as the one for the equivalent gas model.

But, I went with a single mass flywheel from another gasoline car that has the same bolt pattern, with the clutch from another gasoline car.

The flywheel on my current car, a gasoline engine... costs $800. Yep a dual mass flywheel. If I go to the OE manufacturer, in the LuK flywheel will cost a little over $500 instead. Tack on another couple of hundred bucks for the clutch kit... and it's still not cheap


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## kosmoz (Dec 27, 2013)

diesels with low end torque tend to be driven on low rpm, which kills clutch faster  Was a few hundred dollars saved on single mass flywheel worth added vibrations and harsher start from stand still?  
I had three petrol cars and now the second diesel one in a row, petrol FTW. In spring I'll get some kind of V8 powered BMW, will put a LPG system in it and fuel costs will be like a diesel powered 5series


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## tanscrazydaisy (Mar 11, 2013)

kosmoz said:


> diesels with low end torque tend to be driven on low rpm, which kills clutch faster  Was a few hundred dollars saved on single mass flywheel worth added vibrations and harsher start from stand still?
> I had three petrol cars and now the second diesel one in a row, petrol FTW. In spring I'll get some kind of V8 powered BMW, will put a LPG system in it and fuel costs will be like a diesel powered 5series


vibrations? what vibrations? I didn't have vibrations because I didn't go with the lightweight flywheel the kids like to do.

Harsher start from stand still? Nope. I had a sprung clutch which took care of that.

If you don't know how to drive a manual transmission, then you kill them faster. Once it's the clutch is engaged, there is no additional wear (as long as you don't exceed the torque capacity of the clutch). When you shift gears, wear happens, especially if you can't downshift properly.

Like I said, when I replaced the clutch on the TDI, it was only due to my mods and the winter time slip. It had plenty of meat left.

my Passat 2.0T makes plenty of low end torque also, thanks to a small turbo... I have over 200,000 miles on my stock clutch, and my car is modded for more power and torque (which also has the clutch slip in the winter time, if I keep it in the upgraded program)


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## kosmoz (Dec 27, 2013)

damn, you don't know what you are talking about  cluch sliping in winter time  Why is that in winter time, when cluch is having easier days, becase it's easier to spin off tires, not cluch itself? And puting a single mass instead of double mass is a ******* style repair, car will never be the same again, every gear change, every drive of the line will never be the same as it was, it's driveable, some don't even notice that, but not the same anymore + on european TDI models, like 2000-2005 passat, this mod almost always kills the tranny in 20k miles. And speaking about handling with a stick - all my cars were manual, I learned to drive with a manual at 13yo, had no problems with friends EVO6 with racing clutch either. 

Why do you want to argue which is obvious, diesels are just more complicated, more expensive to buy, more expensive to maintain, so you need to drive more to make it worth.


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## tanscrazydaisy (Mar 11, 2013)

kosmoz said:


> damn, you don't know what you are talking about  cluch sliping in winter time  Why is that in winter time, when cluch is having easier days, becase it's easier to spin off tires, not cluch itself? And puting a single mass instead of double mass is a ******* style repair, car will never be the same again, every gear change, every drive of the line will never be the same as it was, it's driveable, some don't even notice that, but not the same anymore + on european TDI models, like 2000-2005 passat, this mod almost always kills the tranny in 20k miles. And speaking about handling with a stick - all my cars were manual, I learned to drive with a manual at 13yo, had no problems with friends EVO6 with racing clutch either.
> 
> Why do you want to argue which is obvious, diesels are just more complicated, more expensive to buy, more expensive to maintain, so you need to drive more to make it worth.


The clutch slip occurs, not because I'm spinning my tires. When you're driving, then say... go up a steep hill, you request the ECU to send more power and torque... that's when the clutch slips, you see the increase in RPM's but you're not going any faster.... for some reason, it's more promiment in the winter time. If that was wheel slip, then if you have traction control, you see the idiot light cutting power. Or you can hear the tire spin and the torque steer.

I know plenty of people that gone with the single mass flywheel without killing the transmission on the 02J tranny, lasting over 100,000 miles and counting with the single mass. In fact, the LuK RepSet (and LuK is a Original Equipment Manufacturer for VWAG) comes with the single mass conversion.

dual mass have more things to break in their assembly.


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## kosmoz (Dec 27, 2013)

you have more power/torque due to cold weather, the only explanation. I have a diesel passat 4motion with a manual, remapped from 130hph 230lb/ft to 170hp 300lb/ft and cluch is sliping if I overheat it with a few hard launches and then try to accelerate in 5th or 6th from less than 1800rpm. Clutch is stock.


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## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

Tatanka Head said:


> I loved my Tacoma in the U.S. It was a 2005, bought it in 2007. I just sold it last year and only lost $2000. They hold their value well. Never compared it to the Frontier, but if the Frontier has more power then it must be a rocket ship. The Tacoma flew up and down the mountains no problem.


Tacomas of that vintage couldn't hold a candle to the 4.0 powered Frontiers. Not sure how the newer ones stack up against one another.


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## poutanen (Dec 22, 2011)

linvillegorge said:


> Tacomas of that vintage couldn't hold a candle to the 4.0 powered Frontiers. Not sure how the newer ones stack up against one another.


The 2005 Taco has 236 hp and 266 lb-ft of torque and an available 6 speed manual...

The 2005 Frontier has 261 hp and 281 lb-ft of torque also available with a 6 speed...

I can't find the curb weight at the moment, but if they're the same weight the Frontier shold be marginally faster.

According to this test (2005 Chevy Colorado vs. 2005 Dodge Dakota, 2006 Honda Ridgeline, 2005 Nissan Frontier, 2005 Toyota Tacoma Comparison Tests - Page 4 - Car and Driver) the Taco was faster than the Frontier, but they also come to the conclusion that the Honda Ridgeline is the best compact pickup, so I would take what they say with a grain of salt. Or maybe a boatload of salt...


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## ThredJack (Mar 18, 2014)

poutanen said:


> The 2005 Taco has 236 hp and 266 lb-ft of torque and an available 6 speed manual...
> 
> The 2005 Frontier has 261 hp and 281 lb-ft of torque also available with a 6 speed...
> 
> ...


Sure the Ridgeline is the best. If you want a glorified SUV with a bed cutout that can't fit anything in it to actually haul a load....


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## poutanen (Dec 22, 2011)

ThredJack said:


> Sure the Ridgeline is the best. If you want a glorified SUV with a bed cutout that can't fit anything in it to actually haul a load....


Yeah by my definition a truck needs to have a body on frame setup, and a real box (I'm not even fond of the 5.5' boxes on some small pickups)...

Is the Subaru Baja a truck? According to wiki it is, but to me putting a box on a car doesn't make it a truck.


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