# Say Goodbye To Burton Discounts



## Sam I Am

Burton is going to *HELL.*


















Thanks man.:thumbsup:


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## Guest

Burton is Vertically fixing the price for their products. They don't want them on sale. 

In the words of Laurent Potdevin (CEO of Burton) "Burton is a premium luxury brand". Kind of like the premium luxury brand he use to work for Louis Vuitton.

Which means snowboarding just got a lot more expensive.



Here is another something to chew on:

Burton made an exclusive deal with the House to allow them to buy all closeout product and the House signed a contract that they can only sell that product at a max discount of 30% for up to 3 years. 

That means no more than 30% off even 2 year old product and all the shops in the country won't get offered the good deals any more, just the House.


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## ScBlack

wow....freaking ridiculous...sounds like Burton is copying Apple's pricing strategy...way to go..:thumbsdown:


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## lonestarrider

That might be the biggest load bs thats gone down in a while. If you go into an agreement and it states don't water down the market, guess what don't water down the market. Don't go on a slander tyrade because you breached an agreement. After 2 years of doing this you finally get called on it. I bet you guys slay it too with Burton product. Have fun with the cutbacks....


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## Adam C

This is pathetic.


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## krazykunuck

this is corperate proganda and also probably idiot people that know nothing of the sport that are dictating what has to be done, with this i feel burton will be crashing soon.

if this ever gets out to press. oh the torture, burton gone,

anyways what do they actually make? i don't think a single product is manufactured by them anymore, everything is made elsewhere and just stamped burton?


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## lonestarrider

This my friends is the smartest man on the internet!!!




mpdsnowman said:


> I see it from Burtons side actually. Now keep in mind I am a businessman so you most likely wont like what I type.
> 
> Your an online retailer no?? Quite frankly you guys have low overhead compared to mom and pops or bigger stores. You can sell at very low margin cause you have very little overhead..again compared to other non internet channels.
> 
> By you doing what you are doing your hurting others around you. Particularly if you have stock! Most likely inventory wasnt an issue to you because you can invest in it more efficiently than your non internet competition because again your overhead comparative to others is nothing.
> 
> Is it price fixing...sure it is, can you stop it. No more than any mom and pop store could stop you from cutting prices drastically on the internet...
> 
> People will still be able to buy Burton products without you. In fact what they are doing is making the bigger picture more competitive by eliminating the price whore internet retailers like yourselves from taking margin that could be spread throughout the industry.
> 
> And if you were doing that good it even makes more sense business wise. I would restrict you as well. You will survive...unless all you are known for is selling products way below margin values industry wide.


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## B-Rad

ha well that is a shame. :thumbsdown: too bad I just ordered a Rome from sierra.


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## MunkySpunk

You entered into a binding agreement, get over it.


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## ScBlack

mpdsnowman said:


> I see it from Burtons side actually. Now keep in mind I am a businessman so you most likely wont like what I type.
> 
> Your an online retailer no?? Quite frankly you guys have low overhead compared to mom and pops or bigger stores. You can sell at very low margin cause you have very little overhead..again compared to other non internet channels.
> 
> By you doing what you are doing your hurting others around you. Particularly if you have stock! Most likely inventory wasnt an issue to you because you can invest in it more efficiently than your non internet competition because again your overhead comparative to others is nothing.
> 
> Is it price fixing...sure it is, can you stop it. No more than any mom and pop store could stop you from cutting prices drastically on the internet...
> 
> People will still be able to buy Burton products without you. In fact what they are doing is making the bigger picture more competitive by eliminating the price whore internet retailers like yourselves from taking margin that could be spread throughout the industry.
> 
> And if you were doing that good it even makes more sense business wise. I would restrict you as well. You will survive...unless all you are known for is selling products way below margin values industry wide.


Sierra snowboard is not just an online store, they have a brick and mortar store in CA as well so they are not just an internet store. Well, if they are now pulling the agreement from Sierrasnowboard because of pricing, then I guess Backcountry/Dogfunk should be next since they often discount more than 40% especially on Steepandcheap..


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## lonestarrider

Steep and cheap is a closeout site, there is never inline product on there. It is only the gear left over that nobody wants. It is bought from said manufacturer specifically to be sold on there cheap. It is the internet version of TJ maxx. You might find a two year old blunt on there, but you will never see a current year Custom, Banana or Agent up on there.


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## Guest

MunkySpunk said:


> You entered into a binding agreement, get over it.


Full story of Sierra and Burton.


Feb 2009- Sierra makes and enormous order with burton and signs a dealer agreement that is fair for both companies. Sierra takes a large risk on inventory in response to burton pressure. 

July 2009- Sierra starts accepting the orders placed in Feb and starts making first payments (you pay some at time of delivery and keep making payments throughout the year) 

Late July 2009- Burton tries to change the signed contract. Sierra responds stating that we do not accept the changed/signed agreement because A) we have already bought the product, B) accepted the product, C) paid for part of the product, D) would not have ordered as much gear if we new that burton would rescind on its contract. 

Jan 27- 2010. At SIA Sierra verbally tells Burton that they plan to discount Feb 1 as this was the date for the original signed agreement. 

Feb 1- Sierra stays true to its word and stokes out thousands of customers.


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## Guest

Also, noone is outside of this agreement. It is across the board, no matter the year. It's also not about us losing our agreement, it's about Burton's greedyness to keep their profit margin higher and to eliminate those who are discounting their product and not caring about the profit margin, but about stoking people out on riding.

As copied from*
Addendum to THE BURTON CORPORATION Authorized Dealer Agreement
(United States)
THIS ADDENDUM (the “Addendum”) is entered into as of April 21, 2009 by and between
THE BURTON CORPORATION and its wholly owned brands, located at 80 Industrial
Parkway, Burlington, Vermont 05401 (“BURTON”) and Sierra Snowboards, 920 Hillview
Court. Suite160 Milpitas, Ca. 95035 (“Dealer”).


b. Promotional Pricing. Promotional pricing and advertising of
Products by Dealer shall be limited according to the following schedules:

2010 Fall/Winter Product
Dates: Maximum Discount:4
Prior to 2/12/10 0%
2/12/10 - 3/1/10 20%
3/2/10 - 4/1/10 40%


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## lonestarrider

Sierracrew said:


> Full story of Sierra and Burton.
> 
> 
> Feb 2009- Sierra makes and enormous order with burton and signs a dealer agreement that is fair for both companies. Sierra takes a large risk on inventory in response to burton pressure.
> 
> July 2009- Sierra starts accepting the orders placed in Feb and starts making first payments (you pay some at time of delivery and keep making payments throughout the year)
> 
> Late July 2009- Burton tries to change the signed contract. Sierra responds stating that we do not accept the changed/signed agreement because A) we have already bought the product, B) accepted the product, C) paid for part of the product, D) would not have ordered as much gear if we new that burton would rescind on its contract.
> 
> Jan 27- 2010. At SIA Sierra verbally tells Burton that they plan to discount Feb 1 as this was the date for the original signed agreement.
> 
> Feb 1- Sierra stays true to its word and stokes out thousands of customers.


Stoked customers are great!!! But something stinks , and it smell like a bunch of BS!!


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## Grizz

Whew! You had me worried when I saw the title of your post.

I think you should change it to read, "Say Goodbye To Burton Discounts at SierraSnowboard.com".

Good deals are still going to be made at the little mom and pop shops where the owner has know you for years. You just can't do it publicly on the internetz where big B can watch.

SierraSnowboard.com has dug their own hole.

Note: I'm not a Burton rider *or* hater, but it's nice to know deals are available if I ever decided to ride B product.


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## Mike.M

I am not here to change any persons opinion about sierrasnowboard.com, burton or myslef. All we can illustrate are facts and allow consumers to voice their opinions with their dollars at any outlet they choose.

Ok Guys Part of this is Sierra’s Fault and Part Burton Changing Philosophy on Sales and Brand Positioning.



Remember this, Sierra is a Customer First Company and our actions over the last 5 years proves that!

Selling gear at affordable prices so middle class and college kids can afford quality gear. I personally have 20 friends who could not enjoy the pleasure of snowboarding without Sierrasnowboard and boreal college season passes. 
Negotiating great prices on travel and tickets so people can enjoy riding together (paloozas) 
Spending more time, money and energy educating people on product, terrain and “how to” stuff. 
Sacrificing employees sleep so customers around the world can speak to us on the phone. 


Full story of Sierra and Burton.



Feb 2009- Sierra makes and enormous order with burton and signs a dealer agreement that is fair for both companies. Sierra takes a large risk on inventory in response to burton pressure. 
July 2009- Sierra starts accepting the orders placed in Feb and starts making first payments (you pay some at time of delivery and keep making payments throughout the year) 
Late July 2009- Burton tries to change the signed contract. Sierra responds stating that we do not accept the changed/signed agreement because A) we have already bought the product, B) accepted the product, C) paid for part of the product, D) would not have ordered as much gear if we new that burton would rescind on its contract. 
Jan 27- 2010. At SIA Sierra verbally tells Burton that they plan to discount Feb 1 as this was the date for the original signed agreement. 
Feb 1- Sierra stays true to its word and stokes out thousands of customers. 


Mike Harrosh has been in tense negotiations since July and fully accepts blame for this. His customers first philosophy does not coincide with burtons new price fixing philosophy.



New Burton Philosophy per Laurent Podivant, CEO and former Louis Vuitton CEO.

Burton is a luxury brand and will command the absolute highest price anywhere and everywhere in all stages of the supply chain at any cost (even the customers). 
Burton is doing several things to accomplish this: 
A) Burton now is a retail store online and in flagship stores. They want to minimize their competition because when Burton sells their own snowboard through their own channel, they make double the profit.

B) Burton is demanding that all external dealers to conform to their price fixing. Ex: The House signed an excusive deal where they get ALL of Burton’s left over product at closeout or discounted prices. This is one way Sierra is able to stay profitable discounting. In return, The House is not allowed to every sell Burton below 30% off. For 2011, Burton is discontinuing over 10 snowboards including the troop, dominant, etc. In affect, Burton is saying these 10 models are irrelevant moving forward in the snowboard industry, yet will require consumers to purchase discontinued models at only a 30% discount. Under the agreement, The House will get all the left over stock of these boards.

C) Burton is raising both the wholesale price and retail price of all its boards in a global economy that has seen a 40% drop in real estate values, record low interest rates, and over 9% unemployment in the USA.

D) The CEO is the problem and Jake is not involved. The CEO wants Burton to become Louis Vuitton. This is short sited and Burton needs to remember, buying a snowboard is the FIRST expense of many when a person decides to have fun on the snow.



The image that comes to mind is a kid standing at a lift ticket counter with his custom x without enough money to buy a lift ticket because Burton took it all!


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## MunkySpunk

I'm missing the entire point of this thread.

What do you guys hope to accomplish by posting this here? What are we supposed to do?


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## krazykunuck

create a litter to burton telling them to smarten up? and let the sport be a sport


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## Zee

We were just talking about this in another thread. 

Looks to me like Burton wants to be the poser brand... "look at me, I am riding an expensive Burton"


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## lonestarrider

MunkySpunk said:


> I'm missing the entire point of this thread.
> 
> What do you guys hope to accomplish by posting this here? What are we supposed to do?


It is a PR machine in full effect. The rules got broekn, and they are trying to make Burton look like the bad guy....


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## Mike.M

lonestarrider said:


> It is a PR machine in full effect. The rules got broekn, and they are trying to make Burton look like the bad guy....



Sierra is not trying to spam PR through snowboardingforum.com

Our intention is to tell you guys that yes, we broke a rule and now are paying a price for that. Our fear was that somebody else told you before we did.
We will now allow this community to continue discussing it or let it die.


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## Zee

It's not like Sierra went and discounted Burton only. At the end of the season, they need to clear inventory, and I'm sure due to the relatively slow economy, they had more inventory than anticipated. In that situation, the profit margins have to fall. If the snowboards at 50% were that far below market value, they would all have been sold out. Because they have so much inventory left even after the 40-50% discounts, this goes to show that the discounts were not out of line at all.
It is unfair to expect your retailer to take a bath on inventory becasue they can't discount it, unless you are willing to buy the remaining back at the end of the season.
I'm sure Sierra woudl love to sell everything at full price, but Market forces just don't work that way, especially in a recession.


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## brujito

i just bought my new boots at half price compared to any place available in NZ...


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## lonestarrider

Zee said:


> It's not like Sierra went and discounted Burton only. At the end of the season, they need to clear inventory, and I'm sure due to the relatively slow economy, they had more inventory than anticipated. In that situation, the profit margins have to fall. If the snowboards at 50% were that far below market value, they would all have been sold out. Because they have so much inventory left even after the 40-50% discounts, this goes to show that the discounts were not out of line at all.
> It is unfair to expect your retailer to take a bath on inventory becasue they can't discount it, unless you are willing to buy the remaining back at the end of the season.
> I'm sure Sierra woudl love to sell everything at full price, but Market forces just don't work that way, especially in a recession.


Trust me, a retailer of this size does not take a bath in inventory. The Irony of all this, is that Sierra is the same big guy that every one hates on Burton for being. They discount to destroy competition.:cheeky4:


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## Zee

Perhaps true, however Burton is very hard on small shops as well.
This whole "premium" brand idea is bullshit, even Rome has a longer warranty, and they don't push retailers around like Burton does.
Snowboards are not purses... a few people may pay more for the name, but that number is pretty small.


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## lonestarrider

Zee said:


> Perhaps true, however Burton is very hard on small shops as well.
> This whole "premium" brand idea is bullshit, even Rome has a longer warranty, and they don't push retailers around like Burton does.
> Snowboards are not purses... a few people may pay more for the name, but that number is pretty small.


Again trust me. DON'T BELIEVE THE HYPE!!!!


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## Zee

Hype about what? I know two shops personally that have dropped other smaller/start-up brands due to pressure from Burton.


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## ScBlack

lonestarrider said:


> Again trust me. DON'T BELIEVE THE HYPE!!!!


Dude, you're starting to sound like a lobbyist for Burton...9 posts and majority of them of this thread defending Burton...look a little fishy to me...whatever intention Sierrasnowboard had they already conveyed their message on this thread. Agree with their position or not, at least they presented their side of the story, maybe they're looking for empathy on this forum..who knows..perhaps you can enlighten us on Burton's new pricing strategy and the overall benefit to consumers?


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## Regulatori

It's all about the public perception of a product and the perceived value, not ACTUAL value. 

It's kind of like how most people think Apple mp3 players are the best...but most audiophiles love Cowon. Same with computers, is a $2500 Macbook better than a custom/boutique made PC costing the same? You could give that Mac buyer a laundry list of items to justify the PC being better...but if they personally find value in that Mac, there is nothing that will change their mind. Again, Apple is also like Burton where they set price limits. 

It's like that famous (true) story of the jewelry shop (can't remember name) that couldn't sell any of their items. The owner told the salespeople to remark the prices before she left for the weekend. When she got back, everything was sold out...but what she didn't realize is that salespeople messed up and marked the items 50% HIGHER, not lower. The customers saw the higher prices, perceived higher quality, and everything quickly sold out. 

Burton wants to retain this perception. For every 1 person that's complaining about Burton stuff being overpriced, you have 10 people flocking to the stuff because it cost more/associated with being "higher end/exclusive."


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## lonestarrider

ScBlack said:


> Dude, you're starting to sound like a lobbyist for Burton...9 posts and majority of them of this thread defending Burton...look a little fishy to me...whatever intention Sierrasnowboard had they already conveyed their message on this thread. Agree with their position or not, at least they presented their side of the story, maybe they're looking for empathy on this forum..who knows..perhaps you can enlighten us on Burton's new pricing strategy and the overall benefit to consumers?



Nah not a lobbyist at all. I am probably just as jaded as you. I just hate to see a bunch of sheep run out to defend the same wolf they all claim to hate.


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## ScBlack

Regulatori said:


> It's all about the public perception of a product and the perceived value, not ACTUAL value.
> 
> It's kind of like how most people think Apple mp3 players are the best...but most audiophiles love Cowon. Same with computers, is a $2500 Macbook better than a custom/boutique made PC costing the same? You could give that Mac buyer a laundry list of items to justify the PC being better...but if they personally find value in that Mac, there is nothing that will change their mind. Again, Apple is also like Burton where they set price limits.
> 
> It's like that famous (true) story of the jewelry shop (can't remember name) that couldn't sell any of their items. The owner told the salespeople to remark the prices before she left for the weekend. When she got back, everything was sold out...but what she didn't realize is that salespeople messed up and marked the items 50% HIGHER, not lower. The customers saw the higher prices, perceived higher quality, and everything quickly sold out.
> 
> Burton wants to retain this perception. For every 1 person that's complaining about Burton stuff being overpriced, you have 10 people flocking to the stuff because it cost more/associated with being "higher end/exclusive."


Very true....that's why I say it over and over again, the world is slowly turning into Idiocracy...hence the same logic that will allow companies such as Apple, LVMH, Rolex and now Burton to use fixed pricing to drive more business and allow more of the masses to follow blindly...


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## lonestarrider

Zee said:


> Hype about what? I know two shops personally that have dropped other smaller/start-up brands due to pressure from Burton.


And a retailer of this size being sent to pasture, is in the best interest of your two small shops. They will be way better off because of it...


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## Guest

Regulatori said:


> It's all about the public perception of a product and the perceived value, not ACTUAL value.
> 
> It's kind of like how most people think Apple mp3 players are the best...but most audiophiles love Cowon. Same with computers, is a $2500 Macbook better than a custom/boutique made PC costing the same? You could give that Mac buyer a laundry list of items to justify the PC being better...but if they personally find value in that Mac, there is nothing that will change their mind. Again, Apple is also like Burton where they set price limits.
> ...
> Burton wants to retain this perception. For every 1 person that's complaining about Burton stuff being overpriced, you have 10 people flocking to the stuff because it cost more/associated with being "higher end/exclusive."


and if the market chooses to buy these products, then burton marketing has done its job. good luck to them. it's a free market - maybe these consumers choose to remain poorly informed but that's how it works.

i think burton should be able to sell its products to whoever it likes for however much it likes. if sierrasnowboard has product bought under terms of an existing agreement, they should sell that product according to the terms of that agreement.

further, if sierrasnowboard is not happy with the terms of any future sales agreement with burton, nobody is forcing them to sell burton equipment. walk away.

alasdair


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## jgsqueak

A fellow (as in retail competitor) snowboard shop sent me the link to this thread. I have to say that we are happy to Sierra get shut down by Burton. They have been discounting everything not to just "keep snowboarding affordable" but to get an edge on their competition (locally and online). If they wanted to keep snowboarding affordable, they would be giving out vochers for 50% of lift tickets at all major resorts. If people weren't willing to pay $80+ a day, they wouldn't go. Obviously people are paying it becasue every year the prices go up. 

Honestly Sierra, you even put it in this thread, 40% off was the max discount on 2010 goods starting Feb 1 2010, yet you were at 50%. I didn't go to Harvard but isn't isn't 50% off more than 40%!?


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## lareaper

Okay I'm deffinately not going to get a burton board for my next board now. Down with the B!!!! lol. But yeah seriously. This is kinda dumb on their part. Just my two cents though.


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## ETM

I have no idea how much sierra relied on burton products but I think most guys on here wouldn't touch burton with a 10 foot pole. I think sierra will survive perfectly well selling all the quality gear made by manufacturers other than burton.


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## Guest

I've never seen someone complain about prices being too low in my life. I don't understand how people are hating on sierra. Who the hell doesn't want to save money?


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## BurtonAvenger

mpdsnowman said:


> I see it from Burtons side actually. Now keep in mind I am a businessman so you most likely wont like what I type.
> 
> Your an online retailer no?? Quite frankly you guys have low overhead compared to mom and pops or bigger stores. You can sell at very low margin cause you have very little overhead..again compared to other non internet channels.
> 
> By you doing what you are doing your hurting others around you. Particularly if you have stock! Most likely inventory wasnt an issue to you because you can invest in it more efficiently than your non internet competition because again your overhead comparative to others is nothing.
> 
> Is it price fixing...sure it is, can you stop it. No more than any mom and pop store could stop you from cutting prices drastically on the internet...
> 
> People will still be able to buy Burton products without you. In fact what they are doing is making the bigger picture more competitive by eliminating the price whore internet retailers like yourselves from taking margin that could be spread throughout the industry.
> 
> And if you were doing that good it even makes more sense business wise. I would restrict you as well. You will survive...unless all you are known for is selling products way below margin values industry wide.


To add what the midget is saying Burton is bringing in the reigns and out of control price gouging of the internet. Sure they have their own retail stores and own online presence but now they're killing off the stores that undercut everyone even their prices. By doing this its taking things back to where they need to be. 





MunkySpunk said:


> You entered into a binding agreement, get over it.


 bingo "Binding Agreement"



Sierracrew said:


> Also, noone is outside of this agreement. It is across the board, no matter the year. It's also not about us losing our agreement, it's about Burton's greedyness to keep their profit margin higher and to eliminate those who are discounting their product and not caring about the profit margin, but about stoking people out on riding.


 Have you ever thought that by doing this and stopping over production it'll put things back on track where it needs to be? I know you're a patio store and all but come on fellas remove your head from your ass and wipe the shit from your eyes you are part of the problem along with Burton. Now they're fixing it.



MunkySpunk said:


> I'm missing the entire point of this thread.
> 
> What do you guys hope to accomplish by posting this here? What are we supposed to do?


 They're trying to put some damage control on their end when they fucked up.



mpdsnowman said:


> And takes advantage of any discounts/rebates that may apply in the agreement ie sales quotas or as you call it pressure....
> 
> Bottom line is what burton is doing is making it fair across the board and increase their market value...believe it or not with this economy it has come to that...burton needing to increase its market value across the board.
> 
> And although you may have your nice little silicon valley store in California:laugh: your an online retailer, thats what your known for, thats what you are.
> 
> But this guy here is calling the shots so get over it.


 Agreeing with the midget here again he sees it, I see it, too bad sierra and the mindless sheeple that cup their balls don't see it.



lonestarrider said:


> It is a PR machine in full effect. The rules got broekn, and they are trying to make Burton look like the bad guy....


 QFT



Mike.M said:


> Sierra is not trying to spam PR through snowboardingforum.com
> 
> Our intention is to tell you guys that yes, we broke a rule and now are paying a price for that. Our fear was that somebody else told you before we did.
> We will now allow this community to continue discussing it or let it die.


 All you're doing is trying to make your patio store not look like the evil mega store it is. Go sell some snowboards based on height and let that little troll doll shoot her mouth off.



lonestarrider said:


> Trust me, a retailer of this size does not take a bath in inventory. The Irony of all this, is that Sierra is the same big guy that every one hates on Burton for being. They discount to destroy competition.:cheeky4:


 Very true worked for a company bigger than Sierra, we used to pay 16 dollars for 300 dollar puffies from Four Square. We could discount and discount and discount some more and still make profit.

The big picture here people is that Burton is actually doing something right. Any of you that know me know I'm a "hater" but this is something that Burton needed to do.


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## supremej

lol this is what burton thinks they are!

this is why i refuse to support burton in any way

and burton is not a luxury brand, its all made in china so that equals mass produced crap!!

there trying to be the vuitton of sb, but to be a vuitton type of company you have to produce great quality products and great design, which burton fails on over and over again unless they bring someone in to do a line


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## Leo

Don't act all innocent Sierra. Don't even for a second try and excuse yourself of your own selfish tactics. You are no better than Burton for what you did to your competition. Did you not learn a lesson from MooseJaw's epic failure? All the retailers know that Sierra is a major dealer. Burton has had their hands in the pricing scheme for a while now (again I mention MooseJaw). You knew better. Yet you still put shit up for sale long before any other retailer. Are you really going to sit there and act altruistic? Did you really think that dropping your Burton prices early wasn't going to majorly fuck your competitors?

Here is the problem with what you did. The other retailers were waiting to start their sales according to manufacturer's rules. They are much smaller than Sierra and dare not challenge the big B which is a major seller. Sierra comes in and drops their prices first. You just under-minded all these other retailers. You did it for profit and nothing else. Saying you did it for us snowboarders? I call bullshit on this one.

I love that you guys stood up to Burton, but to say you did it for snowboarders is a blatant lie. You did it for money and nothing else. Yea, you give away boards everyday, but you can afford to do that. It brings mad business to you.

Be real Sierra. You're a retailer out for profit. Don't lie about that shit. As fucked up as Burton's rules are, your act sucker-punched other retailers. Not just the mom and pop ones either.

Actually, I take that back. Burton's rules are pretty much the same shit that other popular manufacturers put out.


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## Zee

I guess the question is, did Sierra agree not to discount Burton at 50% on their 48 hour sale? If so, that's a knock against Sierra. I guess the way I read it was that Sierra and Burton had an agreement, and Burton tried to change it after Sierra had bought the inventory, and Sierra refused and went ahead with the 50% as originally planned.

Another thing, people need to stop whining about local stores being pushed out. They are being pushed out because most of them are staffed by people that dont know shit, the prices are too high and the so called personal service really doesn't exist. I've always been referred to the manufacturer when I have had an issue, the local store hasn't helped. So why would I pay more? The so called value add that you would get from buying locally is not worth 30-100% more.

Welcome to the global economy. Competition is good!


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## BurtonAvenger

NO Local shops are being pushed out by mega stores like Sierra because people have grown so accustomed to the prices being severely discounted at all times. That's the cold hard truth right there. I compete with this bullshit day in and day out. You know how I get people to buy from me and not the patio store? I've done this for half my fucking life and I can back up anything I say because I actually am not some fat ass fuck sitting at a computer in Sacto no where near a mountain. You know what I see when I look out my shops front window? I see Breckenridge I'm a half block from a gondola. I can put someone on a demo board have them back in an hour to grab another one if they want. Can they do that, fuck no.

All the bull shit they spew about being for the riders and shit is just that bull shit. Thank you Burton for finally stepping up to the plate.


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## Leo

Burton, amongst other manufacturers, give retailers a set of rules to follow. One of them being the allowed time to start a sale. Pretty much due to Sierra and MooseJaw before them, Burton has now forced retailers to agree to not drop prices below 40%.

Does anyone still think that Sierra is altruistic? Did they in fact do something for the snowboarding community?


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## rader023

Zee said:


> I guess the question is, did Sierra agree not to discount Burton at 50% on their 48 hour sale? If so, that's a knock against Sierra. I guess the way I read it was that Sierra and Burton had an agreement, and Burton tried to change it after Sierra had bought the inventory, and Sierra refused and went ahead with the 50% as originally planned.
> 
> Another thing, people need to stop whining about local stores being pushed out. They are being pushed out because most of them are staffed by people that dont know shit, the prices are too high and the so called personal service really doesn't exist. I've always been referred to the manufacturer when I have had an issue, the local store hasn't helped. So why would I pay more? The so called value add that you would get from buying locally is not worth 30-100% more.
> 
> Welcome to the global economy. Competition is good!


Zee my local shop had good prices, awesome service, friendly staff, the ski portion was named best store in the US. Guess what, gone, replaced with a kids ski section. So this may be the case in some stores (been to some), but it is not true in many, dare I say most cases.


----------



## tooscoops

wow everyone... you really dislike the way ss is going about this eh?

i don't understand why everyone is defending burton and putting down sierra. you all make no sense. yeah, sierra is a discount site/shop... they sell volume by decreasing margins. everyone agrees there, right? burton has changed the agreement not allowing sierra do what it is that their business has been built on. 

its not the end of the world for most people, but why are people attempting to get all harsh on sierra when all they have done is discount product? as even the harshest people on both sides have said, its business.

mom and pop stores are great. but that doesn't mean you can ignore business trends such as on-line shopping and discounting and still get by. they need to find what they can do better than the on-line stores and go hard at it. dinosaurs will die. i'll be sad to see them go, but only the weak ones who couldn't adapt will go.

oh, and yeah... i'm not really trying to defend either side.. more just leaving it that all businesses are out to make money one way or another... if they are making money and doing things legally, all the power to them. i don't even care if they pretend all their business is for flowery lovey 'for the rider' crap... we're smart right?.. we know its just for profit. why bother listening to that?


----------



## Leo

Burton didn't change their agreement. That change came after this whole debacle.

I am bashing Sierra because they are trying act all innocent in this matter. They aren't. They strategically planned this whole thing. And you know what? Judging by the responses, most of you are falling for it.

Meanwhile, the other retailers are quietly following the agreements made with these manufacturers.

How do I know this? Well, I work for one of those "other" retailers. Let me tell you, the agreement was there for a long time. Sierra defaulted on it. Burton changed the retailer agreement after the incident.


----------



## tooscoops

ok... so why did they need to change the agreement? if ss defaulted on it, wouldn't that mean the agreement should have already said whatever they have amended?

just trying to clear it up is all.

if its an actual breach of contract, i'm sure burton wouldn't just say, "oh, well next time, don't discount it." they are a big machine and can handle the legalities of fucking them up the ass. until that happens, i'll assume that loopholes were found and everything was done legally though possibly shady. and if thats the case, all the power to them.


----------



## Milo303

Burton is going about this the wrong way. I personally feel they produce way to much merchandise, force shops to buy a certain amount of their gear in order to even get Burton gear, and then they won't allow them to discount in order to clear it out towards the end of the season. 

Never Summer is doing things perfectly imo.... They don't over produce and gear sells out right about the time when places would start discounting, therefore little to no discounts are ever given. That means people don't get used to waiting for discounts!

It's not rocket science what Sierra is doing with discounts.... I'm sure there is a part of there crew that does want to keep things affordable, but in the end when they discount, they get the sale over a place not discounting.



So I don't think either camps are doing things perfect or even with the greater good in mind 100% of the time.

Burton needs to stop over producing to keep costs up. And Sierra needs to stop discounting the shitty brand so people will wake up and look for alternative companies to buy from who make higher quality gear for cheaper. Problem solved


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## BurtonAvenger

Leo said:


> Burton didn't change their agreement. That change came after this whole debacle.
> 
> I am bashing Sierra because they are trying act all innocent in this matter. They aren't. They strategically planned this whole thing. And you know what? Judging by the responses, most of you are falling for it.
> 
> Meanwhile, the other retailers are quietly following the agreements made with these manufacturers.
> 
> How do I know this? Well, I work for one of those "other" retailers. Let me tell you, the agreement was there for a long time. Sierra defaulted on it. Burton changed the retailer agreement after the incident.


Bingo I worked for a shop that does the same volume as Sierra, hell they could buy Sierra and not even blink. But we also obeyed our agreements. 

Like that scene in Thunderdome, Break a deal face the wheel. Sierra broke the deal this is the aftermath they're putting their spin on it and I guarantee people with vested interests in Sierra will be backing them 100% but the truth remains they are not snowboarding and they are not good for it.


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## Straick

I can see Burton's side of this, as well as Sierra's side. Burton is trying to keep profit margins up(important for the manufacturers and retailers if they want to survive), while Sierra is trying to do what they've done in the past, sell equipment at a discount(important for the consumer if they want to survive). The 2 don't get along.

I bought my gear at a local place(as old fashioned as it sounds, I refuse to get a credit card, it's cash or no sale). What had me buying it there was that I could also get help there if I have problems with it later. Put it on layaway(try that online without a credit card), and it's waiting for me to finish paying it off. Top it off, I ran across the guy who helped me out while snowboarding this past weekend(on a rental unfortunately, give it time and it'll be mine). He was also able to give recommendations on board, bindings, and boots for me based on my level, size, weight, and all.
Anyone ever tried to try on a pair of boots online? It doesn't work. The smaller places will still exist, because some things have to be done in person. Add to it that's it's just wrong to go into a local place, get all the information you need, and then turn around and buy it online. The only time I can see a reason for this is if what you are getting can't be had from the local place. Also, if you buy online, don't expect good service at the local place, whereas you can expect decent service from the local place if there's an issue if you bought the stuff from them. Not always the case, but it is the majority of the time.


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## Leo

Burton, at any time, has the right to terminate the contract if a company breaks an agreement. Sierra did that. MooseJaw did that. Burton has now put in new requirements to stop further breach of contracts like this.

No loopholes. Sierra broke and agreement plain and simple. If you really want the logistics, I will ask our buyer tomorrow at work and give you the details of the agreement if she wants to make that information public.


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## BurtonAvenger

Leo said:


> Burton, at any time, has the right to terminate the contract if a company breaks an agreement. Sierra did that. MooseJaw did that. Burton has now put in new requirements to stop further breach of contracts like this.
> 
> No loopholes. Sierra broke and agreement plain and simple. If you really want the logistics, I will ask our buyer tomorrow at work and give you the details of the agreement if she wants to make that information public.


pretty sure over on Sierra someone actually posted the full burton agreement and you can read that. Its pretty standard in any companies contract in the snow industry. Hell I'm dealing with Volkl Marker right now cause of something similar.


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## tooscoops

oh, thats ok leo. so its an agreement, not a binding contract though? as i said, if its that serious, burton could shut down a shop the size of sierra pretty easy. i just am trying to figure out why they (ss) would bother to attempt a smear of burton if they were in the wrong and could get a fist up the kiester. maybe they like it?

meh. by the sounds of it, my end result is not caring. i'll keep buying boots, soft goods and such from local shops, but getting boards and binders wherever is cheapest. (hopefully those same shops)

edit* damn you're fast! i'll go check out the ss forums...


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## Leo

tooscoops said:


> oh, thats ok leo. so its an agreement, not a binding contract though? as i said, if its that serious, burton could shut down a shop the size of sierra pretty easy. i just am trying to figure out why they (ss) would bother to attempt a smear of burton if they were in the wrong and could get a fist up the kiester. maybe they like it?
> 
> meh. by the sounds of it, my end result is not caring. i'll keep buying boots, soft goods and such from local shops, but getting boards and binders wherever is cheapest. (hopefully those same shops)
> 
> edit* damn you're fast! i'll go check out the ss forums...


Sierra had to know this was coming unless they were really that arrogantly ignorant. Maybe they thought they could get away with it. I'm more inclined to believe that they have a reason. Perhaps another company they are going to work with in the way they did with Burton. Would make sense as to why they are trying to make Burton look like they are 100% guilty in this matter.

Actually, I think they were just that ignorant.


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## BurtonAvenger

Not a doubt in my mind they're ignorant. When you build your community based solely on product giveaways to entice them from other forums you're doing nothing to help snowboarding. I wouldn't be surprised if you suddenly see Capita or Mervin crawling into Burtons place over there.


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## Guest

personally i really don't care that much... I've ridden long enough and had enough burton products to realize some are good and some are crap... the fact that I never know if im buying a product that will fall apart after 15days of riding or not just keeps me away from their gear.

IMO anything that hurts the consumer is bad, big B relegating who can have a sale for what % and at what times of the year is bad for the consumer, but I'm not buying burton crap anymore anyways so what difference does it make.


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## Milo303

Serious said:


> IMO anything that hurts the consumer is bad, big B relegating who can have a sale for what % and at what times of the year is bad for the consumer, but I'm not buying burton crap anymore anyways so what difference does it make.


I couldn't agree more. If it wasn't for the consumer, Burton wouldn't be shit.

And them saying they're a high class type of company, they're basically saying they don't give a shit about the poor guys. Burton has constantly kept trying to raise and raise the cost of buying gear from them. I disagree with a lot of things Burton, and what they're doing right now is another thing I don't agree with.


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## Leo

Like I've said, Burton isn't the only manufacturer that does this.

Let me pose this scenario for you though...

Say manufacturers allow retailers to go crazy with sales. What would happen? It would be a race to the bottom until somebody loses more than they can handle. After which, companies like Sierra would be standing with little to no competition in sight. Is this good for consumers?

Here is another thing, Burton is a huge name. Consumers widely associate low prices with cheap quality. This tarnishes Burton's brand image which is very important because a huge bulk of their business comes from new snowboarders. If you were Burton, would you want this to happen to your company? Would you let huge retailers like Sierra give huge discounts on your products?

I'm not saying Burton is perfect by any means, but they really do get more shit than they deserve. Look at this current situation, Sierra was completely in the wrong, yet everyone is bashing Burton. This confuses me 

If you want a really cheap board, go buy a Lamar. Simple as that.


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## tooscoops

ok... so i think i'm finally gettin git after reading all the forum topics all over dedicated to this! whew...

so burton had an agreement with sierra (and all other retailers i assume)... sierra ignored the agreement by having their big sale, therfore undercutting other retailers playing by the rules and pissing off burton one last time... this was the straw that broke the camels back and burton has NOW cancelled their contract (due to ss's breach) and determined how much they can sell all remaining stock. ss doesn't like this and is now crying foul.

sound like a pretty accurate synopsis? lacking a lot of technicalities i'm sure...

meh, sierra took a gamble and finally burton decided to tell em to fuck off. risks run by bth companies. i'm sure they'll both come out fine. (as long as sierra doesn't now dictate the prices below the agreed numbers... then i can see burton royally fucking them up).


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## BurtonAvenger

People are forgetting that Burton does Chill, LTR, and numerous other things to help snowboarding here. All they're doing is saving the snowboard industry from losing shops, evening the playing field, and rebuilding their brands image and name.


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## Leo

I seriously started to lose faith in their products. Let me tell you though, after demoing so many of their 2011 products, I am right back on that wagon. The most hardcore Burton haters within my company walked away with a smile after riding boards like the ELF-V, Custom Fly-V, and Whammy Marley.

I actually feel bad for those of you that hate Burton so much. You are missing out on some excellent boards. Just like how I felt bad for all the Shaun White haters because his boards have been really good as well. Except his 2011 standard version. That one I can say sucks balls for me


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## Milo303

BurtonAvenger said:


> People are forgetting that Burton does Chill, LTR, and numerous other things to help snowboarding here. All they're doing is saving the snowboard industry from losing shops, evening the playing field, and rebuilding their brands image and name.


I hope your right. Burton has done a lot for snowboarding but all the good is clouded by the bad in my eyes...


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## rjattack19

what ever man burtons quality has been going down hill for years anyhow, they are def not a premium brand in my book. companies like foursquare and 686 make far superior products and companies like gnu, capita, and NS make far better boards. the only one im bummed about is anon because iv bought cheap lenses through you guys. keep up the good work sierra, i love you guys


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## Leo

rjattack19 said:


> what ever man burtons quality has been going down hill for years anyhow, they are def not a premium brand in my book. companies like foursquare and 686 make far superior products and companies like gnu, capita, and NS make far better boards. the only one im bummed about is anon because iv bought cheap lenses through you guys. keep up the good work sierra, i love you guys


See what I mean? Another snowboarder who will miss out on their 2011 boards. :laugh:


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## krazykunuck

i just picked up a 2010 board of my liking, so its all good, i will still continue to deal with the mom and pop stores, atleast out here they try to help as much as possible, however there is a employee that shouldn't be in that section at all but what can you do,


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## Milo303

Leo said:


> See what I mean? Another snowboarder who will miss out on their 2011 boards. :laugh:


I wouldn't spend the extra money on a Burton even if it was the best board on the market right now...

There's several companies making badass sticks for a lot less money and they will get my money even if they aren't making the very best of the best. And part of it is all the shit Burton has done.... You can't just suddenly make some sweet sticks after fucking people for years and expect my business. It's going to take a bit more then having 1 good season of sticks that are still likely over priced.


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## tooscoops

yeah. hardgoods, i had too many problems. i'll give em a try on a demo day just to see what i'm missing. i'm definitely willing to give em another shot, but now that they are trying to go upscale (even more) i doubt i'll be willing to fork over top dollar for something that will last me a couple years.


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## ranger5oh

First, everyone saying that Burton is trying to keep their profit margins up is just plain wrong. Burton isnt getting a percent of the sales price of each board sold, they are getting a price that has been paid for up front by the retailer. B will negotiate a price for X quantity of merchandise, and sell it to a retailer, which means Burton's profit margins are set before any store even sells a board.

Second, sticking up for B and claiming that the "big bad internet retailer" is killing your mom and pop shop is plain wrong. Your mom and pop shop is going out of business because they have a bad business model in this economic time. If their overhead is so high they have to sell boards for 30% more, they should go out of business. If the internet retailer can sell boards for 30% less, guess what... good business model.

Consumers take risks buying on the internet. Sierra has become what they are because people have had GOOD experiences with them. They are not an internet giant based solely on price. They have excellent customer service, quick shipping, and a great return policy. I have been to plenty of mom and pop shops that are piss poor on customer service and returns, not to mention half of them never have anything in stock. If they are going to have to "order it for me," guess what... Ill just cut out the middle man.

That said, I have no problem with B's pricing strategy. They can price how they want, and if it works, they will be successful. If their pricing sucks, and its a bad value, they will go out of business. My guess is, they will do just fine. 

Just dont hate on the "internet retailer" for being efficient and offering great prices. Most everyone on this site has probably bought something from SS because they are a great store, internet based or not.


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## Milo303

I'm with ya



ranger5oh said:


> First, everyone saying that Burton is trying to keep their profit margins up is just plain wrong. Burton isnt getting a percent of the sales price of each board sold, they are getting a price that has been paid for up front by the retailer. B will negotiate a price for X quantity of merchandise, and sell it to a retailer, which means Burton's profit margins are set before any store even sells a board.
> 
> Second, sticking up for B and claiming that the "big bad internet retailer" is killing your mom and pop shop is plain wrong. Your mom and pop shop is going out of business because they have a bad business model in this economic time. If their overhead is so high they have to sell boards for 30% more, they should go out of business. If the internet retailer can sell boards for 30% less, guess what... good business model.
> 
> Consumers take risks buying on the internet. Sierra has become what they are because people have had GOOD experiences with them. They are not an internet giant based solely on price. They have excellent customer service, quick shipping, and a great return policy. I have been to plenty of mom and pop shops that are piss poor on customer service and returns, not to mention half of them never have anything in stock. If they are going to have to "order it for me," guess what... Ill just cut out the middle man.
> 
> That said, I have no problem with B's pricing strategy. They can price how they want, and if it works, they will be successful. If their pricing sucks, and its a bad value, they will go out of business. My guess is, they will do just fine.
> 
> Just dont hate on the "internet retailer" for being efficient and offering great prices. Most everyone on this site has probably bought something from SS because they are a great store, internet based or not.


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## Straick

I was wrong. I should have said product image instead of profit margin. They are also trying to prevent unnecessary competition between dealers down(or so I'd like to think).


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## lareaper

Has anyone noticed that they're having a "Big Bad Burton Sale" at Sierra right now for 50% off all Burton products? Is this what this whole debate is about? If Sierra just now decided to have this sale cause them and Burton had this disagreement, that would be hilarious haha. Sorry if this didn't make any sense...


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## john doe

So maybe I'm missing something. It seems Burton is screwing over the end user so much with their MSRP that the retailer can mark stuff down 40% and still make a profit. Is Burton really dictating a 100% mark up over wholesale price just to keep their image going?

If SS broke a contract then Burton should do what is right and sue them for damages.

As for buying local, not everyone has a that choice. I have one local store and the shitheads there told me a 35%VLT lense would be fine for night riding. Of coarse thats all they had in stock. They're getting as little of my money as I can manage.


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## krazykunuck

lareaper said:


> Has anyone noticed that they're having a "Big Bad Burton Sale" at Sierra right now for 50% off all Burton products? Is this what this whole debate is about? If Sierra just now decided to have this sale cause them and Burton had this disagreement, that would be hilarious haha. Sorry if this didn't make any sense...



sierra was plannin the sale for a while or so it looks like and burton afterwards updated the contract. idk, :dunno:


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## Zee

lareaper said:


> Has anyone noticed that they're having a "Big Bad Burton Sale" at Sierra right now for 50% off all Burton products? Is this what this whole debate is about? If Sierra just now decided to have this sale cause them and Burton had this disagreement, that would be hilarious haha. Sorry if this didn't make any sense...


Yep, it's a big fuck you to Burton, and they are shipping Burton internationally.


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## Milo303

Zee said:


> Yep, it's a big fuck you to Burton, and they are shipping Burton internationally.


I love it but I fear a lawsuit on this one haha


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## Zee

Milo303 said:


> I love it but I fear a lawsuit on this one haha


If the agreement is null and void, I suspect Sierra is ok selling the gear however they want to.


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## Marumm

Whether it's iPods or snowboards, the market should decide the best price; not manufacturers setting an arbitrary number designed to artificially inflate value. 

I see both sides of this, and yes, they're both based out of self-interest, but Burton's side leaves no benefit to anyone but themselves. They want to crank out a glut of boards, force oversized minimum orders down small shops' throats (to the exclusion of other brands), and then prevent any shops, large or small, from managing their inventory as they see fit. Meanwhile, they sell their own stuff online, free of any of those restrictions. And the end benefit to me, the end consumer, is that I pay much more, but have the prestige of knowing I'm rolling up in the lift line with a 'marquee brand'?

Thanks, but I'd rather have the beer money.


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## Argo

I dont really care what happens to sierra but i think that manufacturers need to have rules, if retailers dont want to follow them, tough. I will only buy from local mom and pop shops on the mountain for my snowboarding gear and from the mom and pop resort shop that I go to. I have purchased never summer boards and burtons from wolf creek at suprisingly inexpesive prices at the end of the season. i have purchased 10-12 other boards from the local shops in pagosa springs, love to support the locals..... 

Its not cause I am some stupid mf'r from texas, I just have a conscious and respect the service offered by the local shops. I feel the same way about shopping at walmart as opposed to a local meat market in san antonio, I will go local all the way.


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## Milo303

Zee said:


> If the agreement is null and void, I suspect Sierra is ok selling the gear however they want to.


Ya Sierra has paid for the gear, and the contract is voided, so your probably right.

Sierra should wholesale the shit woop


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## PaulyMolitor

i hate sierra and burton,,,they are the devil...


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## BurtonAvenger

Argo said:


> I dont really care what happens to sierra but i think that manufacturers need to have rules, if retailers dont want to follow them, tough. I will only buy from local mom and pop shops on the mountain for my snowboarding gear and from the mom and pop resort shop that I go to. I have purchased never summer boards and burtons from wolf creek at suprisingly inexpesive prices at the end of the season. i have purchased 10-12 other boards from the local shops in pagosa springs, love to support the locals.....
> 
> Its not cause I am some stupid mf'r from texas, I just have a conscious and respect the service offered by the local shops. I feel the same way about shopping at walmart as opposed to a local meat market in san antonio, I will go local all the way.


One of the last few people that thinks this way. Kudos to you.


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## Straick

You can add me onto that list. I'm into several hobbies, and you'll find me at the small mom and pop places before the big chains. I even supply fishing bait(live crayfish) to one cheaper than they can buy them elsewhere, and they end up being bigger too. Now that's supporting your local economy.


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## BurtonAvenger

World needs more people like you guys. It's like when I grocery shop at the local store I try to buy meats, drinks, and other things that are produced in the state of CO.


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## Straick

Funny part, there's a place about 30 minutes from me(a butchers shop) that I've been going to for both regular meat items, as well as any specialty cuts of meat. Parts that top it off, and people at work agree on this, his prices are better than the chain store prices, his meat is fresher, and it tastes WAY better. And customer service is basically what he does.
A lot of mom and pop places end up being like that, but then there are a few that could care less. What causes a lot of them to have employees who don't care is that a lot of kids today are after one thing. Money. I've known kids who think that they should be paid just for the inconvenience of having to show up on time. I might only be 25, but I take a lot of pride in my work, and have no problem with putting my name on the work I do. It's something that a lot of people today don't do, probably because they think that it's old school.


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## BurtonAvenger

Oh I hear ya I manage the "it" shop for freeskiing around here and I get resumes upon resumes for jobs and just talking to people it's hilarious what they think they should be paid. I'm like OK you think you should be paid how much an hour? Wow that's more than I make and I've done this for 13 years. Entitlement is the one word I use to describe the vast majority of the newest generation.


----------



## Guest

Why should snowboards only be on sale at the end of the season? What happens if I break my board in the middle of the season (you know when I am actually snowboarding?)

Its pretty frustrating to buy a board for $450 and then in 6 weeks later see the same board for $250 at the same shop.


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## BurtonAvenger

You sound like the type that impacts his board then bitches when a company doesn't warrantee it.


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## Milo303

Serious said:


> Why should snowboards only be on sale at the end of the season? What happens if I break my board in the middle of the season (you know when I am actually snowboarding?)
> 
> Its pretty frustrating to buy a board for $450 and then in 6 weeks later see the same board for $250 at the same shop.


It's just how the business has to be. Boards are sold at full price early season when demand is high. If you blow your board up right away then it's typically covered with warranty. 

Boards go on sale when the demand goes down mid to late season because the majority have bought a board and stores need to clear the shelfs or get stuck with them. You see this with most of the big companies, especially Burton who over produces product to make every penny possible. Burton forces shops to buy X amount which may be more then the shop can sale, or they don't get any Burton gear. So then little shops get stuck with all this gear and need to discount to move it, which Burton is stopping as well.


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## killclimbz

Wow, I play hooky and this is what happens?

To be fair, pretty much every manufacturer has pricing agreements. Sierra got called out on it. All they have to do is comply and that's about it.

Now here is a problem I do have with Burton. If you are a shop, you can't just carry Burton hard goods. You basically have to carry their whole line. Not everything, but shit from each area. That's bullshit. If your shop just wants to sell Big B's boards, they are going to have to have the expense of carrying everything else. Also, Burton is very militant about their product placement in the stores. Seems that Sierra did buy an awful lot of their crappy product to make big B happy. Maybe they should quit buying Burton (ain't going to happen) products?

It's not deserved either. You can take any Burton, board, boot, binding across the line and I can find a product that is more durable, performs better, for the same price, probably less. Their products are not top of the market in any way except image. You get what you pay for...


----------



## Zee

I think what I got fom this is that Sierra and Burton are done with each other, so no more Burton products at Sierra.

Burton does have the newbie market cornered though (how many new riders go and buy everything Burton?), and their kids stuff is good. Other than that, I don't see them as a premium brand at all. Overpriced, yes, premium, no.

Burton keeps trying to become a "premium brand" they will end up as the Bogner of the snowboarding world. lol


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## BurtonAvenger

I've written my thoughts on the whole thing here if anyone cares to read it. I'm waiting on 2 emails back from people over at Burton to get their side of things as right now we just have Sierras and the few lone people with enough brains to understand that Burton is actually doing something good if they keep on track and don't do what Sierra is saying they are. Remember Sierra is not snowboarding and their words are not the truth till we hear from the other party involved.


----------



## killclimbz

Thanks for posting up BA. I know it pains you greatly to be on big B's side on this issue. Probably nothing a cougar can't fix...


----------



## BurtonAvenger

If Burton is doing what I think they're actually doing and not what Sierra is saying their doing ( I don't trust sierra and never will) a ton of my issues with them will be resolved. Hell I'm from NY Burton was my local brand growing up I have photos of me bleeding Burton all over the slopes. I'd love to have some pride in them again if they can do what I think they're setting out to do. Like I said waiting on emails back from people over there.


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## Zee

While I agree with BA on a lot of things, this is one area I will respectfully disagree. I was prepared to pay full pop for a Never Summer earlier this year because there is value in the product, and I am still willing to pay more for a quality product with a solid, rider focused, company behind it. Burton does not fall into this category. They are trying to create a perception that it is a top end product, but in reality it is mass produced in foriegn factories. 

For the record, I do admire Burton as a business.


----------



## killclimbz

Eh, Burton is so bi-polar. They'll do the right thing in many instances, then at the drop of a pin they'll be assholes about something else. It'll take more than this for them to win me over, but I do tend to agree with you that they seem to be doing the right thing in this instance.


----------



## Zee

killclimbz said:


> Eh, Burton is so bi-polar. They'll do the right thing in many instances, then at the drop of a pin they'll be assholes about something else. It'll take more than this for them to win me over, but I do tend to agree with you that they seem to be doing the right thing in this instance.


This is so true, the LTR program, the Get Lifted program, the quality kids stuff, all very good.


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## BurtonAvenger

Zee said:


> While I agree with BA on a lot of things, this is one area I will respectfully disagree. I was prepared to pay full pop for a Never Summer earlier this year because there is value in the product, and I am still willing to pay more for a quality product with a solid, rider focused, company behind it. Burton does not fall into this category. They are trying to create a perception that it is a top end product, but in reality it is mass produced in foriegn factories.
> 
> For the record, I do admire Burton as a business.


Here's the thing people don't realize 95% of all snowboards are mass produced and have varying degrees of QC. Burton does make some fun products and some quality stuff. The problem is that for all this hate of them its more lack of reasons than solid reasons. 

I'm reminded of long debates I had with Burton supporters on snowboard.com about 5 to 7 years ago. These guys loved Burton and that's fine but kept arguing that I didn't have any reasons to hate till I finally wrote a multiple paragraphed post detailing all instances that have caused me to hate them. From that point on I wasn't listed as being a hater for the sake of hating but one because I could back it up. I was also notorious for bashing the people on the Anti-burton bandwagon. 

If people could ride as much product as I do their opinions of a lot of companies would change, but they can't so they stick to what the popular choice is. Some also remain ill informed and either are pro or anti based on that. 

I'm going to do a post detailing the hate of Burton for my site in the future. When it posts I suggest you read it might open your eyes a little bit.


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## krazykunuck

i'll be staying tuned for that, because i got a couple facts that i know of with burton, and thats why i don't touch them with a 10 foot pole, even with them trying to do what we all think they are (correcting the industry) the pole might go only down to 8 feet,

and yes alot of newbies have burton one gal who started last year has everything burton, almost to the the point of if she could she'd bleed it too, and then theres people like all of use who just mix and match the best of the best for what you prefer is the best for yourself and your riding technique.


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## hanzosteel

Zee said:


> This is so true, the LTR program, the Get Lifted program, the quality kids stuff, all very good.


yeah, whatever, good for the people or good for burton? it's the drug pushers business model - get them hooked early. everything burton does is purely for profit in the end no matter how they try to disguise it. 

sierra will survive and there will be many new nitro, lib-tech, ride, rome, capita, k2 riders in the future.
burton will also continue to thrive and there will many more equipment snobs on the hills.


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## BurtonAvenger

What about the programs Sims, K2, and Never Summer do to get people hooked early should we chastise them for it too? Don't be pissed that Sierra got bitch slapped for being in the wrong and that Burton is finally doing something right for the industry. Like I said before too many people have grown accustomed to thinking MSRP is price gouging.


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## krazykunuck

msrp is everywhere, from clothing to autoparts its the way business has always done it,


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## burritosandsnow

The main debate aside one thing that always annoys me with this issue is when people talk of the low overhead of these online stores. People get a clue, a 150,000 square foot warehouse with automated systems and a team of csr reps does not give you low overhead. A single forklift can cost about a years salary of an entry lvl management position. These sites make money off of volume NOT low overhead.

Now to the main issue. The megastore vs local is a slippery slope. For example the small town in Alabama where Im originally from has one store that sells snowboard gear. Its a small local outdoor retail store and they only carry Burton product because they have a very low demand and have to carry a recognizable brand. So should I pony up for Burton equipment ( some of which is undiscounted but multiple seasons old?). No I shouldnt have to buy that and my only option is to go online. I currently live in Salt Lake and can walk into the Backcountry warehouse anytime I want and buy anything from them. They are local so Im still core right even though John Doe who lives in Chicago is a sell out for ordering the same item from them. Where does it stop? If a new shop opens in town is it now uncool to go to Milosport because they have the upper hand of a great pro team and inventory and the new shop does not? I view it like this … ultimately does the store Im purchasing from care about snowboarding. If snowboarding was suddenly very uncool and scandalous would REI drop its inventory.. probably so. Would Sierra or Backcountry .. probably not. For that reason I dont have any issue purchasing anything from them. This season Ive made purchases from Milosport SaltyPeaks Backcountry and one new board from an individual off Ebay. The board was a Sierrascope the capita/sierrasnowboard collab board. It broke and SIERRA CONTACTED ME after seeing a forum post about it and gave me a new one without hesitation. In my book thats cool thats customer ( even though I wasnt technically a customer) service and thats how you do things.

MSRP is a whole different story. On that issue I have to agree with what Burton did. If you make an agreement you stick to it. There are multiple levels to this debate such as the previous mentioned over production, price fixing etc etc. Ultimately I view this particular incident in this manner. If you dont like the contract dont sign it. Sierra has a shit ton of leverage too and they more than most can weasel Burton into a more favorable agreement.

Not that MSRP really matters any longer H.R. 3190 Passes House Judiciary Committee at Boardistan


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## tooscoops

i understand what burton is doing with the pricing issue as a whole, and i agree with you BA.. being in the automotive business for so long (for a domestic) made me wish they would do the same... it got to a point where everyone just expected 8000 off a new car as soon as they came out. and dumb factory execs said... ok, lets do that! and built way too many cars... this forced em even cheaper and forced the company to start finding ways to make the cars even cheaper therfore, crappier.

if this actually makes burton focus on quality rather than quantity, i'm all for it. they have had more innovations than all the other main companies combined. if they can turn that innovation into the best board line-up out there, sweet.

doesn't mean i'll buy it, but i'll sure respect them for doing it.


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## Leo

There is a major point that all of you "free market" supporters are over looking. The plain and simple fact remains that almost *ALL* manufacturers do what Burton does. Burton is the only snowboard brand mind blowingly huge enough to say Fuck you to a major retailer like Sierra without kicking themselves in the balls while doing it. Other brands force the same rules on us, but aren't super strict because it would hurt their business.

Like I said, if Sierra was given full control of the prices for their Burton products, they would be royally screwing over the other retailers that are following these manufacturer's guidelines. In fact, they have screwed other retailers. Nobody is buying Burton gear from these other retailers right now. Want to take a big guess as to why that is? Love em or hate em, Burton is the most profitable brand in snowboarding and outerwear. Not being able to sell their products hurts most retailers.

Brands like NeverSummer, Capita, and Union are *Niche* brands that aren't profitable at all. That is just pure fact.

Sierra is 100% wrong for what they did. It is bad business. Look at their current Burton Sell. Honestly, who can compete with that? The world isn't full of altruistic consumers, it's full of thrifty ones. That is another fact.

Giving retailers 100% control over pricing will majorly fuck all kinds of shit. Brand image being one. It would also give big companies like Sierra too much power. They do a 70% discount on Burton, and all the smaller guys have to follow. How is this even feasible in your minds? It would destroy the market plain and simple.

I've said it before, it would be a race to the bottom until weaker companies just topple over. But hey, it's alright though right? You'll probably see less Burton users and more Nichey shit like Capitas. And Sierra would be the only ones selling them.


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## Marumm

burritosandsnow said:


> Not that MSRP really matters any longer H.R. 3190 Passes House Judiciary Committee at Boardistan


Interesting! Here's the current status- nothing new to report, but things can languish around for months and then suddenly pop up for a floor vote. It's basically a corrective action against a decision by the Supreme Court back in 2007 (link) to allow price fixing. The dissenting justices predicted that it would lead to higher prices for consumers - surprise!


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## Guest

BurtonAvenger said:


> You sound like the type that impacts his board then bitches when a company doesn't warrantee it.


If im ponying up $450 for a new board mid season how am I bitching about warranty?

The only thing that pisses me off about snowboard warranties is that alot of shops use them as selling points then when the board breaks its suddenly, "oh ya the warranty doesn't cover that." well what the F good is a 2 year warranty if it doesn't cover failure due to being ridden on? might as well just be a warranty until for the first 3 days the board is ridden. which is why warranty's never factor into my board buying decisions.

sorry I know that was off topic.


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## tooscoops

goddamn it... fucking site boots me out every ten minutes even if i'm typing... then decides to not allow me to retrieve what i wrote.

basic synopsis was that i feel differently than you do leo. 

price should be 'guided' not set. and i don't see why it has to be structured the way burton has done it. it seems that you are basically saying its not fair business... how is it fair to a discount store to tell them that they can't discount? why is screwing their bottom line during one part of the season more fair than screwing someone elses at a later date? who would buy off ss if there were no or only small discounts? 



> it would be a race to the bottom until weaker companies just topple over


isn't that what business is about? only the strong survive. by keeping the weak in the mix, all we are doing is weakening the retail sector the same way burton (in the past) has weakened the snowboarding industry.

my proposal to all companies... snowboards or whatever. set prices for one year (unless the product isn't affected by timeliness). prices need to be set >(or equal to) 5% above suppliers price (or whatever seems right for the product). that way, all places can price match for a savvy customer. after that one year, the store is then free to set prices whever they want. after all, ordering, supply and sales should be important to a business. ones that order correctly and don't have excess stock should be rewarded with not having to forego profit and those who stocked poorly should be penalized by having to move product at a loss to make room for new stuff.


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## asgm

*Sierrasnowboards Screwed Up!*



mpdsnowman said:


> My guess is sierasnowboards works on no more than 6% on certain lines. Particularly popular ones like Burton. In fact its almost a guaranteed sale. If I want to buy a Burton Blunt for example. I know what the item is. It doesnt matter where I buy it from cause I am going to get the same thing. Its all pricing at that point.
> 
> In many cases the mom and pop stores and larger stores do all the legwork in educating the customer on the products yet im certain in many cases loose the sale to sierrasnowboards in this example..
> 
> And im in no way shape or from very smart but its common business sense. Ever since the internet came about this has been an age old issue for alot of products sold.


Sierrasnowboards has been on the Burton teet for many years...they are so far in bed with them they choose Burton to make their own in house brand of snowboards for them called 'Sierra Crew'. They now believe they are are bigger than they actually are and can do whatever they want. You may or may not like Burton as a company. It is your choice as a retailer to do business with them. If you choose to do business with them then you have to play by their rules. If you don't like their rules then don't buy their product. It is a very simple concept. Good luck to Sierrasnowboards without Burton.


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## killclimbz

Sierra did screw it up, but I think a simple "knock it of" should have sufficed. Maybe Burton already tried that tactic, it's very possible. 

As far as Sierra without the big B. It's going to be hard on them at first at least. I think the quality of the product they carry just got a whole lot better because of it.


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## Deviant

Leo said:


> Burton, at any time, has the right to terminate the contract if a company breaks an agreement. Sierra did that. MooseJaw did that. Burton has now put in new requirements to stop further breach of contracts like this.
> 
> No loopholes. Sierra broke and agreement plain and simple. If you really want the logistics, I will ask our buyer tomorrow at work and give you the details of the agreement if she wants to make that information public.



QFT. People saying sierra is going to go down for this isn't true either, and if anything, it will help other board companies sales go up (I'm speaking specifically on their site) I'm curious to know what company is in 2nd in terms of board sales on their site. Lastly, does this mean the Sierra Crew is done, since it's pretty much the same board as the B Custom?

Sierra breached contract, or agreement, whatever. Would I set limits with a company if they breached a contract with me? Hell yes.



> The image that comes to mind is a kid standing at a lift ticket counter with his custom x without enough money to buy a lift ticket because Burton took it all!


Yeah, I'm sure this is an real thought. If someone spends that kind of money on a board lift tickets wouldn't be an worry, but way to play for the sympathy crowd. Judging by the forum posts on sierra from *their own staff* asking people to send 100,000's of emails to Burton because of "price fixing" is pathetic. You (sierra) fucked up. Almost all the posts I see from staff members are kissing ass to the customers so you can try to save face through all of this. The "oh we love you so much customers" shit on your forums is so sappy and fake it sickens me. 

Is it really about your customers, or is it about your profits falling??????



lonestarrider said:


> It is a PR machine in full effect. The rules got broekn, and they are trying to make Burton look like the bad guy....


Amen.

I'm not saying Burton isn't overpriced, I paid well below what is MSRP for my X8, I would never buy it at full price. What I am saying is that you (sierra) brought this on yourselves. Burton is making business decisions based on the breach. The second Burton takes Sierra out of the loop, Sierra goes the way of Burton hating, way to play for the crowd Sierra. :thumbsdown:


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## Leo

Actually, Burton didn't initially force set prices like that. They gave set dates on when retailers can start sales. There is also a new limit to how much you can discount the stuff.

Business is about competition and that is why we need to preserve that aspect of it. Sierra bringing down weaker companies puts them square on the top of the food chain. No competition means they are free to charge whatever they want. Why wouldn't they? Nobody would be there to contest them. This gives YOU the consumer less power and limited options.

I agree that manufacturers shouldn't map out exact pricing schemes discount for discount. But they do have to place some rules into effect to keep the market fair.


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## Miles_K

Everyone hates Sierra until they have to buy a new board...


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## killclimbz

Miles_K said:


> Everyone hates Sierra until they have to buy a new board...


They don't carry splitboards so I'll hate on them all I want.



Actually I have no problem with Sierra and hang out on their forum all the time. I've even bought a few items here and there from them.


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## RVM

I try to stay out of Sierra Snowboard discussions but I gotta chime in here...

I worked for Sierra a few years ago and I definitely remember overhearing management and the owner discussing the Burton discounts. They told most of the employees that because Sierra bought and sold so much Burton gear that they were giving Sierra massive discounts and that's why we could sell cheap so early, but then when you overhear the managers talking about how they need to be careful with the pricing because Burton might get pissed you start to wonder... 

Sierra, you knew what you were doing, and you knew the plug could be pulled at any time. Stop trying to act like this came out of the blue.

It's worth mentioning I'm not trying to bash Sierra. I'm not defendind Burton either. It sucks they're trying to turn snowboarding into a fashion show.


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## 33549

I really do not care for Burton. I care to get a good product for a good price. I just bought a Burton Custom and Cartel EST for $440 Dollar (from Sierra and REI.com). I will buy from Sierra again if they keep on having great prices and I do not care if it has B, GNU or NS written on it. I dont care for the local shops either. All I care for is a place to try on boots as for boards I think it really does not matter if you buy local or online because neither will let you test ride in most cases. 

KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK SIERRA.


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## tooscoops

meh, other companies will make sierra "team" boards. pretty sure capita made the first ones... the sierrascope i believe.

so thats no biggie. as for either company getting by without the other... they'll both do just fine. sierra will still sell tonnes of stuff, just from other manufacturers and burton will do a little less volume, but at the prices they sold their product to sierra, i'm sure they can make that up with a 2 dollar increase on msrp accross the lineup.


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## Mooz

Anyone else basking in the irony of sierra coming here and using this forum as a PR outlet for themselves and against Burton only to have it blow up in their faces.

Really this forum, supporting Burton.

The irony is like a warm bubble bath and I'm soaking in it :laugh:


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## Milo303

Not everyone on this forum is supporting Burton....


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## BurtonAvenger

Mooz said:


> Anyone else basking in the irony of sierra coming here and using this forum as a PR outlet for themselves and against Burton only to have it blow up in their faces.
> 
> Really this forum, supporting Burton.
> 
> The irony is like a warm bubble bath and I'm soaking in it :laugh:


I got some funny ass text messages from people that were shocked I supported Burton.


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## Guest

sierra snowboard is playing all of you.

this situation that is being arm chaired to death, is taking place with more than one supplier on both the snowboard and ski side.

it is getting big attention because it is burton. the supplier/dealer agreements are made between all suppliers and all retailers. no big deal.

sierra does not want to play by the suppliers rules. that is their choice.

will some consumers suffer from the fallout? yes probably, but for the long term health of the snowsports industry, the weenie crybaby retailers, like sierra, need to be reeled in. 

jfwiw, they are currently involved in a law suit with K2. i do not know the specifics of the case, but a lucky guess might be that it will have something to do with distribution of the K2 family of products and sierra snowboard.

to survive in the online business, internet retailers need to sell a lot of stuff at good margins to survive. to accomplish this, the internet retailer either needs to have the brands and products that the consumer wants, or they better have prices that motivate online shoppers to stop there and pull the trigger. sierra has gotten greedy in assuming that they can have both with brands like burton and k2.

without products that have huge consumer pull, sierra will suffer. they will never recover the volume that those key brands brought to their door.

as a cautionary tale, it is said that you should treat people the way you wish to be treated on the way up, so that there is a soft place to land on the way down. i hope the guys at sierra, have their red helmets strapped on tight!!!!


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## krazykunuck

not expected for a first post otto but i like...


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## MunkySpunk

otto812 said:


> sierra snowboard is playing all of you.
> 
> without products that have huge consumer pull, sierra will suffer. they will never recover the volume that those key brands brought to their door.


While I agree, how is sierra playing me?


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## BurtonAvenger

I think he's talking about all the supporters/fanboys that are defending Sierra cause they're using the "think of the customers" tactic. I've been getting emails in from all sorts of people in the industry that are showing me shit Sierra was pulling. I might have to make another post about why they brought this on themselves. They're in serious damage control right now and if things keep spiraling the way they are like Otto said they won't recover.


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## RVM

Please do and put a link to it in this thread. :cheeky4:



BurtonAvenger said:


> I think he's talking about all the supporters/fanboys that are defending Sierra cause they're using the "think of the customers" tactic. I've been getting emails in from all sorts of people in the industry that are showing me shit Sierra was pulling. I might have to make another post about why they brought this on themselves. They're in serious damage control right now and if things keep spiraling the way they are like Otto said they won't recover.


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## Zee

Businesses have contract disputes and fall-outs all the time. It's not that big a deal...


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## binarypie

Zee said:


> Businesses have contract disputes and fall-outs all the time. It's not that big a deal...


I agree how did this thread end up with 12+ pages?


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## RVM

Check out BAs blog he's got a blurb about this up:

Angry!

BA I hope you don't mind me taking the liberty to post to your article.


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## tooscoops

binarypie said:


> I agree how did this thread end up with 12+ pages?


because its a new way to talk about burton! and everyone has an opinon on that. opinions are like my asshole.. it smells and makes poop.

wait... maybe i messed that up.


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## Guest

binarypie said:


> I agree how did this thread end up with 12+ pages?


that is what i am referring to as "being played"

the beauty of the the internet is that it allows anyone to say what they want without fear of discovery of who they are and who they represent. in this case this debate is being fueled by sierra snowboards. i cannot tell you who the "players" are on this forum, but you can imagine that based on the business practices of some online retailers, there is a fair amount of what i would call low level scamming going on here. and you have to ask, for what purpose?

i am not a lover or hater of sierra, burton, or the snowsports industry. unlike sierra however, i am a real fan of truth, justice, and the american way. this sticky sweet story about the protecting the little guy reminds me of the movie "Tommy Boy" in 2 ways. one there was a character in the movie named ray zelinski, and he had this bs smarmy pitch about selling auto parts to the average american working man, all the while he was a genuine prick, only interested in lining his own pockets and really did not give a rats a$$ about his customers. the second analogy is the premise that Tommy's father, a genuine hard working guy that really did believe that good stuff came to people that worked hard and smart, died and left his company to his mildly retarded son that had not learned very many of the life lessons that his father had tried to teach.

if you go on to sierra's site and dig into their forum, you will see that they are trying to rally the large group of loyal customers into flooding burton with spam directed somehow at bringing the evil empire to it's knees. best guess is that you will not see much of a reaction from burton. long term they will grow their business ahead of where they are today, and they will do it without the support and the headache of dealing with the fallout of being a business partner with sierra. 

for sierra the only advice i could possibly offer is: live by the sword, die by the sword. 

the snowsports industry is continually morphing, and the changes are coming so that a snowsports industry survives for the future. the snowsports business is a worldwide industry. they are learning from past mistakes of sloth, greed, and bad management. as they error correct for better health, there will be some fallout both on the manufacturers and on the retail side. online retailers as well as brick and mortar stores must be able to adapt to these market changes, or they are going to find themselves on the outside looking in, telling stories about the good ole days, and how selling tools for sliding on snow was like shooting fish in a barrel. 

these industry mistakes were the impetus that has allowed the massive growth in off price goods on the internet. the industry adaptations that are taking place will not hurt anyone. not the consumer , not the retailer, and not the supplier. it will not however allow companies like sierra that developed a brillant business plan based on the suppliers turgid business practices to continue in the same way. so get up, brush yourself off, stop whining, and figure out how to make money the old fashioned way, earn it!!


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## Zee

otto812 said:


> i cannot tell you who the "players" are on this forum, but you can imagine that based on the business practices of some online retailers, there is a fair amount of what i would call low level scamming going on here. and you have to ask, for what purpose?


If you are accusing any regular forum members of somehow being involved in this, you had better back up your statements with facts. It's one thing to come and express your opinion, it is quite another to say there are "players" on this forum that are participating in some sort of "low level scamming".


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## Guest

Zee said:


> If you are accusing any regular forum members of somehow being involved in this, you had better back up your statements with facts. It's one thing to come and express your opinion, it is quite another to say there are "players" on this forum that are participating in some sort of "low level scamming".


you have missed my point. the beauty of the internet is that you cannot tell who or what is behind the curtain of anonymity. however based on the the concept of "community" that exists, you better believe that there are plenty of industry types out here that "plant" the direction that they want to steer the conversation to go. when they are not doing that, they are in online chat rooms trying to get dates with underage girls.

ps: to all you underage girls, be careful of middle age, bald, fat guys, pretending to be something that they are not.


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## MunkySpunk

Zee said:


> Businesses have contract disputes and fall-outs all the time. It's not that big a deal...


TO lose the Burton Umbrella is a big deal. I've no doubt Sierra will survive - I'm equally sure about 20-30% of their staff is going to get laid off to balance the inevitable downsizing too. It's not a death blow, but it's a big enough deal to them to start up the PR machine and institute damage control strategies. 

Still don't see how I'm being played tho. I'm pretty much neutral on Burton and Sierra, and I remain so. I'm glad Burton dropped the hammer and put the kibosh on Sierra crushing the local stores.... but at the same time Burton has done its share of crushing as well. 

At the end of the day it doesn't matter what the hell any of us think of the situation. We represent the tiniest fraction of 1% of the snowboarding market here - don't fool yourselves into thinking we're some sort of players in the great landscape of boarding trends. Trying to 'play' us has as much effect as smashing a single ant of an ant colony... We're not even an itch to be scratched. :dunno:


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## Extremo

Here are my 3 cents...

Fuck Burton...They're profit driven

Fuck Sierra...They're profit driven

Fuck local shops...they're profit driven and they usually dont know anything about their product

I support myself...the consumer. Offer me expensive snowboards and I'll buy one and keep it for years. Offer me cheap snowboards and I'll buy two. And probably two more...next year.


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## Extremo

Just found this posted on Flux' Website...Another example of burton hurting the snowboard industry

VP of sales at Burton speaks up on TW Biz
Posted in Product News, Random Bits with tags Burton Snowboards, Flux Bindings, Transworld Magazine on December 9, 2009 by Flux Bindings 
Hello, to all the unknowing and “blind to the fact”…

Last year, Burton Snowboards flooded the market with hardgoods, thus hindering the ability for smaller companies like ourselves to have a good sales year. Not only did it affect us but it affected the whole industry. Shops were forced to purchase tons of Burton product at no discount, without any gurantee of a sell-through and were left with loads of inventory at the end of the year that had to be sold at deep discounts just to break even. In fact, some shops were unable to break even and had to close their doors. Is this how you treat the ones who have brought you to where you are today?? Brilliant move guys. Analysts forecast that they are sure this will happen again for the 2nd year in a row.

It’s funny beacuse on TW Biz, Clark Gundlach, VP of sales at Burton, gave his take on the current hardgoods supply and demand situation that has plagued our industry. He must not realize that they are the plague. Also, it seems as though TW Biz has disabled the comment section of this article. Feel free to leave your comments here. We’ll be sure your voice is heard.

READ IT HERE

Matching Supply With Demand: Burton’s Clark Gundlach | TransWorld Business


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## kenwg

*A little manufactured indignation, anyone?*

I just finished reading this thread and have to say that my initial reaction to the post at the start of the thread hasn’t changed. It’s a miserable “blame the other guy” whine, as well as a sad and grossly hypocritical display of manufactured indignation and undeserved self-righteousness. 

First, Sierra Crew, Burton told you what the rules were and you ignored them. They apparently tried to work with you because they didn’t cut you off immediately - and when they do finally cut you off you blame them for not cutting you off earlier? Incredible! They have to cut you off when you break the contract to show you that you were “dealing with serious business”? Please... that’s just so lame I can’t stand it. We’re not idiots - most of us anyway. But if that’s the way you think a successful business relationship works, perhaps you are. 

I’m retired, but I used to have my own business and had to deal with this sort of self-centered egoism from contractors on more than a few occasions. It’s really easy to spot the type. People who think they are special, above the rules, can get away with this kind of shlock and disrespect for their business partnerships. People who's business model was simply to take advantage of their vendors to the maximum extent possible, at everyone else's expense. And then they would offer up all sorts of lame rationalizations and finger pointing at everyone else when I would show up with a big truck and repossess all their equipment. It always gave me a good laugh - still does.

Second, you try to paint yourself as looking out for the little guy. Yeah, I’m sure you're in the business to help out the little guy, and your profits are secondary. I’m sure you really care about all those mom and pop stores that are struggling to survive while you undercut them with a slick international internet marketing campaign. You’re no little guy - you’re a sharp, slightly too-greedy businessman who’s out to maximize profit, just like Burton. But now you got spanked for your bad behavior, and you’re whining like a spoiled, spanked child, annoying all the other shoppers in the grocery store. Grow up.

I have to admit though, your PR campaign in this case is pretty smart - it’s apparently taken in a fair number of posters. I’m sure it would make someone like Karl Rove proud; is he perhaps one of your mentors?

And third, you blame Burton and try to destroy their reputation, because they whipped you when you deserved it. I’m not a particular fan, or enemy, of Burton, or any other brand. If they want to brand themselves as a “high end” product and think they can make that niche work for them, good luck and more power to them. The technology will still trickle down and I’ll still be able to ride by buying stuff from suppliers who's equipment I can afford. 

And if Burton’s new business model doesn’t work, maybe you’ll have the last laugh. But I suspect they’ll probably be doing just fine in a few years. Wonder if we’ll be able to say the same about you? Is your bad Karma coming back to haunt you? Might want to start thinking about driving around in a cheaper car...


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## Deviant

It is surprising that after Sierra's people make a few posts about it here and then they don't defend themselves after numerous replies and statements against them and their practices.

Oh wait, it isn't surprising at all, it's just like the spammers on here that post the info about their company and move onto the next forum. Go figure. :dunno:


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## BurtonAvenger

BurtonX8 said:


> It is surprising that after Sierra's people make a few posts about it here and then they don't defend themselves after numerous replies and statements against them and their practices.
> 
> Oh wait, it isn't surprising at all, it's just like the spammers on here that post the info about their company and move onto the next forum. Go figure. :dunno:


It's classic Sierra they will not defend themselves where they are outnumbered. They send out the rally cry to get people on their side when it doesn't work they don't do anything more.


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## Extremo

*Ok answer me this people!!*

Let's forget this is sierra here.

If burton is needed to make profits (apparently because people are mind fucked by them and wouldnt conceivably buy another brand) how is it acceptable to all of you, that they get to set the volume a shop carries AND set their prices, only to leave that shop holding the bag when, at the end of the season, they still hold 30% of the product they were forced to carry? And then can't discount it at a MARKET determined price?

I mean if I bought the product it should be my decision to take a loss on capital, to see a return of some capital. 

It seems to me that the only ones hurt by this are the burton retailers, regardless of the size or mode of operation, and the consumer (not me personally, I'll never buy that shit), and other companies that vie for floor space among burton goods. 

The only beneficiaries in this situation is burton...not the industry, not the consumer and certainly not the shop. Burton seems to be putting shops in a difficult position, they're fucked if they don't carry them, and they're fucked if they do.


----------



## Tarzanman

I didn't bother to read the entire 15 pages of this thread.

What it comes down to is control. Burton was probably slowly realizing that some of their retailers (Sierra in this case) were moving a lot more product than their other retailers.

If you are a supplier then this can be a bad situation. If one of your retailers gets too powerful, then the tables can get turned and the retailer can start to dictate what deals and amounts they want and when. An extreme example of this is Wal-mart. Wal-mart can pretty much call the shots on any product they want to stock in their stores (what amount, what margin, what terms, etc) because they sell so much of it and have such a massive distribution network.

While it sucks that Burton wants to keep their prices high... it is no skin off my back. IMO, they don't make the best boards out there, and there are plenty of other brands to choose from. What might suck is not getting some of the clothing brands they own discounted... but I am reasonable sure that another brand will be happy to step in and take some of that market share at that price point away.

Burton can go fly a kite


----------



## Bones

Tarzanman said:


> While it sucks that Burton wants to keep their prices high... but I am reasonable sure that another brand will be happy to step in and take some of that market share at that price point away.


I actually have to side with Burton here. You want to make sure your brand stays strong and you want to capitalize on the premium price perception that you've built over the years. You don't allow discounting beyond a certain percentage. Period. So if you've got a retailer violating their agreement, you cut them off. There are lots of online retailers, send a message.


----------



## tooscoops

as for sierra not coming back and defending themselves.. meh... hell, i have logged onto sierra probably 10 times in the last week checking out some deals, posting and all that... probably equal to all i visited last year in total.

as they say, no such thing as bad publicity.


----------



## Mike.M

BurtonAvenger said:


> It's classic Sierra they will not defend themselves where they are outnumbered. They send out the rally cry to get people on their side when it doesn't work they don't do anything more.


It is not Sierra Snowboards intention to personally argue with everyone who disagrees with us and to be honest everybody who has posted in this forum has a legitimate argument coming from all sides of the industry. I imagine that many of the contributing members here fall into one of these categories: New enthusiasts, old school riders, value shoppers, local store employees, regional riders, or resort employees. Everyone from all corners of the snow industry has a different perspective and these different insights will evolve snowboarding.

Sierra is not looking in the past defending right, wrong or whatever. Sierra Snowboard is working hard to make sure that all its Members, Customers and New Customers have the best possible 2011 Snow Season. We plan to offer the best possible price, content, knowledge trough innovative and personal communication strategies and technological applications and will always embrace people who enjoy all aspects of snowboarding.


----------



## ChuChu

Really surprised to see so many people jump to defend the company with the price fixing scheme in place. You guys are fine with being gouged with artificially inflated prices? The fact that other companies do it too doesn't make it any better. That just means you are getting screwed from multiple directions. As a consumer I want a competitive price. That means the most aggressive retailer making real discounts based on what the market will bear, not what some guy working at B decides.


----------



## BurtonAvenger

Mike.M said:


> It is not Sierra Snowboards intention to personally argue with everyone who disagrees with us and to be honest everybody who has posted in this forum has a legitimate argument coming from all sides of the industry. I imagine that many of the contributing members here fall into one of these categories: New enthusiasts, old school riders, value shoppers, local store employees, regional riders, or resort employees. Everyone from all corners of the snow industry has a different perspective and these different insights will evolve snowboarding.
> 
> Sierra is not looking in the past defending right, wrong or whatever. Sierra Snowboard is working hard to make sure that all its Members, Customers and New Customers have the best possible 2011 Snow Season. We plan to offer the best possible price, content, knowledge trough innovative and personal communication strategies and technological applications and will always embrace people who enjoy all aspects of snowboarding.


I'm calling Bullshit on this one Mike. You sent the rally cry out and it didn't work to your favor over here all one has to do is log on to your site and see. Your actions alone show your true intentions the problem is that by having an open invite for people to stick their hand in the cookie jar you've developed legions of fanboys.


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## Milo303

Tarzanman said:


> I didn't bother to read the entire 15 pages of this thread.
> 
> What it comes down to is control. Burton was probably slowly realizing that some of their retailers (Sierra in this case) were moving a lot more product than their other retailers.
> 
> If you are a supplier then this can be a bad situation. If one of your retailers gets too powerful, then the tables can get turned and the retailer can start to dictate what deals and amounts they want and when. An extreme example of this is Wal-mart. Wal-mart can pretty much call the shots on any product they want to stock in their stores (what amount, what margin, what terms, etc) because they sell so much of it and have such a massive distribution network.
> 
> While it sucks that Burton wants to keep their prices high... it is no skin off my back. IMO, they don't make the best boards out there, and there are plenty of other brands to choose from. What might suck is not getting some of the clothing brands they own discounted... but I am reasonable sure that another brand will be happy to step in and take some of that market share at that price point away.
> 
> Burton can go fly a kite





Burton could control the value by limiting the amount of items produced, just like I've stated before. 

The vehicle industry is a good example... All companies have over produced vehicles therefore creating more supply then demand. So the deals start getting greater and greater to move the surplus of items.

After all of the arguing and talk back and fourth I still feel Never Summer has the best game plan in the industry. Offer top notch gear for an ok price, and limit the items produced to keep that "ok" price up and the big sales just won't happen.... Never Summer has kept site of what this sport is all about and are keeping their heads about them and not getting caught up in the money.

Burton wants to control all aspects of this industry. They create a product for every possible angle of this industry that is known at this time, force shops to purchase X amount of their product, force the pricing on shops, they flood the market with advertising to sway the noobs.... And on top of that, half or more of their product is shit which imo is designed to break down in a short amount of time so people keep coming back and buying more of it! 

Anyways... I'm about done with this argument, it's not going anywhere and we apparently can't settle it with our debates


----------



## Bones

Milo303 said:


> Burton wants to control all aspects of this industry. They create a product for every possible angle of this industry that is known at this time, force shops to purchase X amount of their product, force the pricing on shops, they flood the market with advertising to sway the noobs....


Yeah, they do. And if I were a shareholder looking for a return on my investment, I'd demand that they do it. And that's who Burton answers to: shareholders.

Let's face it. The repeat sales market for snow products revolves around the the 70% sales at the end of the year. Every once in a while, some new tech comes along that wows us and we pay full retail, but by and large, we all know if we wait a couple of months we'll get the same thing at a massive discount. That's a tough market to survive in for a manufacturer.

Long term, I think this is good for the industry. Smaller manufacturers that make innovative products will be able to receive closer to their MSRP and remain viable because they're not going to drown in 1000's of discounted Burton boards.


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## Milo303

Burton sold the gear to people in contracts with them for the price they require.... Shops having sales does not affect the price that Burton receives.... So shareholders don't know the difference between a discounted item and a full price item as far as I know

And Never Summer has some of the best snowboards and longboards on the market.... And you very rarely see them discounted, and you don't see shops bitching about them forcing shit upon em. I know NS is a much smaller company, but they're doing just fine, while making top notch shit.

I'm not sitting here saying Sierra was right... They entered the contract and fucked it up, so shame on them also.


----------



## Mike.M

BurtonAvenger said:


> I'm calling Bullshit on this one Mike. You sent the rally cry out and it didn't work to your favor over here all one has to do is log on to your site and see. Your actions alone show your true intentions the problem is that by having an open invite for people to stick their hand in the cookie jar you've developed legions of fanboys.


We each have our job to do. You continue calling bullshit and milking free snowboards and I will work to relate snowboarding to the ever expanding global consumer.


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## BurtonAvenger

Mike.M said:


> We each have our job to do. You continue calling bullshit and milking free snowboards and I will work to relate snowboarding to the ever expanding global consumer.


Oh Mike taking pot shots are we? Wow did I strike a nerve? Might want to get your facts straight about me and how much free gear I actually get and how much I do for free. Like I said you sent out a rally cry its been called out by numerous people in this industry. Your greed is what brought about this demise. Don't think for a second pulling the I'm here to make snowboarding affordable card is the truth. The bottom line is your pockets which is fine you're a businessman I have no problem with people making a buck. I have no problem with companies charging fair market price for a product that demands it.

What I have a problem with is when a company doesn't play by the rules. The plain and simple fact here is that you broke the rules Burton reeled it in and rather than take your lumps you acted like a spoiled kid that got put in time out and instead of sitting in the corner for 15 minutes is now having a 2 hour temper tantrum. Now don't think I'm a Burton supporter for a minute here either, they brought a lot of what's wrong in this industry on themselves along with a ton of other companies. Over production has hurt everyone. 

Look at all the accusations you're making about Burton and the fact that only your side is being made public. That speaks volumes right there. Like I said I just call the bullshit.

Here's what I want to know how's losing a company that makes up 50% of your revenue? How's this going to impact that new warehouse you just built? What's the truth behind this rumor K2 pulled all its brands both ski and snowboard from you over 2 weeks ago? How many times were you actually warned by other companies for going so far off price? If you didn't have a legion of fanboys with their hand in the cookie jar would you be getting the support you are? How does it feel to be put in the spotlight so negatively? Why do you feel you can justify breaking rules because they let you before? Where has Burton ever publicly announced that they are a luxury brand, can you show any form of press release, statement, or interview? Do you have any proof about the level of accusations aside from the contract about Burton? 

Like I said to my readers on my site, the snowboard industry is a lot like high school and people need to grow the fuck up. You obviously need to do just that. You want to make it personal with me go for it, it'll just show another level you're willing to stoop to. One last thing I'll point out you're being paid to do damage control I'm not being paid shit to point out what's going on. Go weigh in on our debate over here if you want.


----------



## Reede

Will Sierra continue to sell rebadged Burton boards under their own name? ie Crew and Reverse Crew and whatever other ones are in their range?

Sierra will put on a strong front but in reality, 5 of their top 10 boards this year are Burton. 6 top 10 Bindings are Burton, and 5/10 Boots are Burton models (I'm talking mens models here).

If I were running a business that just lost the supplier of 50% of my top products then I would be crapping my pants right now.


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## zakk

Well, like every messy divorce there are three sides to this story:

Her Story (Sierra) and His Story (Buck Furton) and then The Truth (which is in the middle)

I think the entire industry needs to revalue its goods. The invoices I’ve seen have 60-100% mark-up at full price. Compare this to other industries and the margins are insane. 

No board is worth $700, 600, even 500 bucks. You’re paying for the team, the marketing, and the ads in all those shiny mags. 

Sierra is based on volume. Yes, the customer service is good, especially compared to local shops I have here. But no matter how much “pressure” Burton put on Sierra, they ultimately signed it and as the Great Recession moved on and the stock was still high, they freaked out. 

IMO, you can’t go on TW Biz and talk profit margins and calling for an industry wide reigning in of over building and still talk 40% or more discounts. What has been killing this industry is the public getting used to a $500 board for $379. But that begs the question that if the profits are still there, why isn’t it a $379 board and only 10% off in March? This I don’t know. 

Overbuilding hard goods is what is “killing” these people. I know how high the margins are prior to any sales figures. If you guys saw what even a small shop is paying for the goods (and often on credit BTW, only NS makes the shop pay 100% up front from what I understand) you’d all be pissed how the places that are “all about the customer/rider” really just chasing dollars…which is exactly what they better be doing in this economy. 

Again, between these two giants, there is the truth somewhere in the middle.


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## Mike.M

Reede said:


> Will Sierra continue to sell rebadged Burton boards under their own name? ie Crew and Reverse Crew and whatever other ones are in their range?
> 
> Sierra will put on a strong front but in reality, 5 of their top 10 boards this year are Burton. 6 top 10 Bindings are Burton, and 5/10 Boots are Burton models (I'm talking mens models here).
> 
> If I were running a business that just lost the supplier of 50% of my top products then I would be crapping my pants right now.


The most exciting part of 2011 for sierra snowboard will be its quality Sierra Decks, Bindings, and Technical Outerwear. Burton helped us begin producing OEM Snowboards and the success of them is undeniable, so much in fact that these boards are beginning to have their own identity. 
Moving forward, we have outstanding partnerships with other established brands and Austrian Factories. Keep your eyes on Snowboard, Snowboards, Burton Snowboards, Burton Bindings, Burton Boots, and snowboard reviews - Free Shipping - US Orders Over $100 to see the unveiling of a few of our 2011 collaboration projects.


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## arsenic0

Milo303 said:


> And Never Summer has some of the best snowboards and longboards on the market.... And you very rarely see them discounted, and you don't see shops bitching about them forcing shit upon em. I know NS is a much smaller company, but they're doing just fine, while making top notch shit.


Thats not necessarily true. I love Never Summer, but they do this as well. You remember when Daddies Snowboard was selling 09 NS boards for i think it was 40% off at one point during December of 08? There was a big ass post on this forum about it and everybody was ordering like crazy. NS Told them to stop immediately, which they did much to my dismay of being 2 days late. 
They still gave me 15% off when i went in locally though because they rule.:thumbsup:

I do know that NS denied selling to Sierra this last season, probably for this very reason. They survive fine on a lot of smaller mom&pop shops...


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## Leo

BurtonAvenger said:


> I'm calling Bullshit on this one Mike. You sent the rally cry out and it didn't work to your favor over here all one has to do is log on to your site and see. Your actions alone show your true intentions the problem is that by having an open invite for people to stick their hand in the cookie jar you've developed legions of fanboys.


Obviously, you really have no clue as to what price fixing is. You and many others who have thrown that term around this thread so freely. Price fixing is two competing companies in the same industry agreeing to set their prices to a certain figure. Nvidia and ATI were under investigation not too long ago for price fixing their graphics cards.

Burton and other brands do not fix their prices. Burton fixes its own prices which is legal no matter how you look at it. K2, Ride, Mervin, NS, all set their own MSRPs. So why is Burton getting a bad rap here? Because you don't agree with their high prices? Because they are on top of the food chain? Stop buying from them then. Plain and simple. No matter what you say, Burton is the top seller and that most likely won't change. Consumers keep on buying Burton products. Retailers have to rely on this brand to drive up revenue. No Burton = very hard to compete and survive. Sierra will be hurt from this. Will they die out? Probably not, but one thing is for sure... they will not be selling the volume they do now.

Again, stop throwing the term "price fixing" if you do not fully understand it. You are misleading consumers by doing so. The only thing that Burton does different from other companies is charge higher prices. That's because of the fact that they are on top. Don't even for a second think that even NeverSummer wouldn't do this if they were in the big B's position. It is purely business.

As for that Flux article, I find no credibility in it. The guy sounds bitter and highly biased. More of the same old anti-Burton banter. If you want to objectively state facts, you do it by saying that your company simply cannot compete with Burton. You don't go around cry about how they flood the market and force this and that. That's just cry babying.

By the way, for online retailers, Burton does have a minimum amount that you can carry in order to purchase their products. It isn't nearly as bad as some of you make it out to be. This is no different brand like K2, Ride etc..

Again, let me pose this question. Why aren't any of you Burton bashers bashing the other manufacturers when they do the same exact shit? Actually, at least Burton is doing something about the rules being broken.

Once I hear some of you bashers saying the same things about Ride, K2, Mervin, etc... then I will see more credibility in you. From a retailer's stand point, the only thing different about Burton's rules are the prices they charge us for their products. Yes, they have a higher premium than other brands, but that's not shocking at all.


----------



## Leo

zakk said:


> No board is worth $700, 600, even 500 bucks. You’re paying for the team, the marketing, and the ads in all those shiny mags.


I'm going to highly disagree with this comment. Unless you know every detail about the makings of an expensive snowboard, then you can't make this statement with validity.

Are you suggesting that no car is worth a million dollars? They all have four wheels and an engine right? So they can't have any uniqueness correct?

Let's talk about good ol' Burton. The Method. Have you looked at the make-up of this board? Is it fully worth the $1,500 price tag? Almost certainly not. I am however willing to bet that this board has a much higher production cost than the rest of their boards.

Now back to the car analogy. Why are, let's say Ferraris, so expensive? They are handmade, albeit not entirely. They also have much more muscle. Yes, it still has an engine and 4 tires made of rubber. The design process of a Ferrari is much more intricate than a Ford Focus.

Snowboards are no different as is other products across multiple industries. Higher quality parts = higher quality products which = higher costs. Then you also have the brand name to factor in.

So, is a Method worth $1,500? Maybe not. But I can comfortably say that it is at least worth $700. As of now that is. Next year maybe more around $550.


----------



## Guest

worth is in the eye of the beholder. if somebody pays $700 for a board, it's worth $700 to them.

individuals define what 'worth' means to them and the market decides collectively what something is worth. like it or hate it, the market has decided that burton boards are worth the money.

alasdair


----------



## Leo

alasdairm said:


> worth is in the eye of the beholder. if somebody pays $700 for a board, it's worth $700 to them.
> 
> individuals define what 'worth' means to them and the market decides collectively what something is worth. like it or hate it, the market has decided that burton boards are worth the money.
> 
> alasdair


I'm talking worth purely based on the cost of manufacturing said product. Raw materials, manpower, etc... My guess was $700. $1,500 - 700 = what you were talking about.

Although I guess same could be said about the raw materials :dunno:


----------



## jmacphee9

i agree 100% with sierra, its your equipment why should they dictate your profit margin? i dont particularly ride burton, but i have always supported them. this may be changing, well it for sure is because i get 90% of my stuff from sierra...


----------



## Leo

jmacphee9 said:


> i agree 100% with sierra, its your equipment why should they dictate your profit margin? i dont particularly ride burton, but i have always supported them. this may be changing, well it for sure is because i get 90% of my stuff from sierra...


You should read every single post in this thread. Your opinion might change


----------



## Guest

Leo said:


> I'm talking worth purely based on the cost of manufacturing said product.


i know of next to no non-essential products whose cost is purely a function of the cost of the raw materials and the cost of the manufacturing process. these products don't exist in a vacuum so it makes no sense to exclude things like marketing, 'cool' factor, etc. from the equation.

alasdair


----------



## ChuChu

Dude. It's textbook price fixing. Look it up before you start wagging your finger at other posters:

Price fixing - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia






Leo said:


> Obviously, you really have no clue as to what price fixing is. You and many others who have thrown that term around this thread so freely. Price fixing is two competing companies in the same industry agreeing to set their prices to a certain figure. Nvidia and ATI were under investigation not too long ago for price fixing their graphics cards.
> 
> Burton and other brands do not fix their prices. Burton fixes its own prices which is legal no matter how you look at it. K2, Ride, Mervin, NS, all set their own MSRPs. So why is Burton getting a bad rap here? Because you don't agree with their high prices? Because they are on top of the food chain? Stop buying from them then. Plain and simple. No matter what you say, Burton is the top seller and that most likely won't change. Consumers keep on buying Burton products. Retailers have to rely on this brand to drive up revenue. No Burton = very hard to compete and survive. Sierra will be hurt from this. Will they die out? Probably not, but one thing is for sure... they will not be selling the volume they do now.
> 
> Again, stop throwing the term "price fixing" if you do not fully understand it. You are misleading consumers by doing so. The only thing that Burton does different from other companies is charge higher prices. That's because of the fact that they are on top. Don't even for a second think that even NeverSummer wouldn't do this if they were in the big B's position. It is purely business.
> 
> As for that Flux article, I find no credibility in it. The guy sounds bitter and highly biased. More of the same old anti-Burton banter. If you want to objectively state facts, you do it by saying that your company simply cannot compete with Burton. You don't go around cry about how they flood the market and force this and that. That's just cry babying.
> 
> By the way, for online retailers, Burton does have a minimum amount that you can carry in order to purchase their products. It isn't nearly as bad as some of you make it out to be. This is no different brand like K2, Ride etc..
> 
> Again, let me pose this question. Why aren't any of you Burton bashers bashing the other manufacturers when they do the same exact shit? Actually, at least Burton is doing something about the rules being broken.
> 
> Once I hear some of you bashers saying the same things about Ride, K2, Mervin, etc... then I will see more credibility in you. From a retailer's stand point, the only thing different about Burton's rules are the prices they charge us for their products. Yes, they have a higher premium than other brands, but that's not shocking at all.


----------



## Grizz

This sounds like an accurate description of the issue.

Resale price maintenance - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## ChuChu

Grizz said:


> This sounds like an accurate description of the issue.
> 
> Resale price maintenance - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


From the link I pasted:



> Price fixing is permitted in some markets but not others; where allowed it is often known as resale price maintenance or retail price maintenance.


----------



## Guest

I'm relatively smart and highly educated, so I can see both sides of the issue here. However, I can't help but laugh when most of the people who attack SS are Burton fanboys, have probable ties to Burton, or are individuals that have been raped (yep) for the past couple of years since they were unable to compete with them. I mean, SS does not appear to be innocent, but it's pretty ridiculous to hate on them if one is just a true snowboarder looking for good deals. And I know that makes sense because just about all of you have probably bought from them recently and/or will do so soon.

In my experience, I have my likes and dislikes for both Burton and Sierrasnowboard. I have a Burton Custom, which I enjoy. I have a decent pair of Burton boots. I also have some RED impact shorts, which turns out be a piece of garbage. Sierrasnowboard has been pretty good to me. Fantastic sales and the website has a great user interface with the chat system/and the reviews for the products being a good touch. I do wish the normal priced section of the website and the 50-70% off section of the site were better integrated (CA sales tax sucks too but that is a given). I do miss those days when just about anything was shipped free regardless of the total purchase price ($99 is high!). 

Overall as a snowboarder, I'd like the continued success of both companies. A successful leading store and a leading brand whose successes other competitors wish to emulate are generally good things for the industry and riders. However, I really hope Sierrasnowboard and their other suppliers will be able to make up for the large inventory gap if Burton does not come back. Burton lost some goodwill with me by making this move. I guess that I won't be looking for their overpriced stuff especially if the absolute max discount is set at 30%.


----------



## BurtonAvenger

Hey Leo quick question. Was that post about price gouging directed at me or Mike M.? Kind of threw me through a loop cause I've never really mentioned price gouging in this thread.

Anyone else find it ironic that Mike M.'s last post talks about how they're going to do Sierra bindings, boards, and outerwear? That's direct sales and that's something they're complaining about Burton for.


----------



## bakesale

ChuChu said:


> Dude. It's textbook price fixing. Look it up before you start wagging your finger at other posters:
> 
> Price fixing - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Umm not it's not, LOL. Price Fixing has to be done with the collusion of the major players in the market or by having a monopolistic interest. it doesn't work unless you control the Market. It's intended to create a price hike by artificially restricting the supply of goods. To have a situation like Price Fixing you would have to see Burton, K2, Mervin, and Rossi all get together in one room and say "Snowboards are too cheap, lets jack the price up." Instead you have a company who commands a respectable part of the market going on their own to one of their vendors and saying "You're selling our stuff too cheaply, please don't do it, it hurts the reputation of our brand" And they continued to sell it cheaply then they eventually bring the hammer down and say "We asked you to stay closer to the MSRP and not discount so heavily but you failed to comply, we are pulling our contract" 

You are Economics fail, so says my Econ BA. 

If you want to better understand Price Fixing go watch the film The Informant.


----------



## RVM

QFT

10chars



BurtonAvenger said:


> Anyone else find it ironic that Mike M.'s last post talks about how they're going to do Sierra bindings, boards, and outerwear? That's direct sales and that's something they're complaining about Burton for.


----------



## Grizz

bakesale said:


> Umm not it's not, LOL. Price Fixing has to be done with the collusion of the major players in the market or by having a monopolistic interest. it doesn't work unless you control the Market. It's intended to create a price hike by artificially restricting the supply of goods. To have a situation like Price Fixing you would have to see Burton, K2, Mervin, and Rossi all get together in one room and say "Snowboards are too cheap, lets jack the price up." Instead you have a company who commands a respectable part of the market going on their own to one of their vendors and saying "You're selling our stuff too cheaply, please don't do it, it hurts the reputation of our brand" And they continued to sell it cheaply then they eventually bring the hammer down and say "We asked you to stay closer to the MSRP and not discount so heavily but you failed to comply, we are pulling our contract"
> 
> You are Economics fail, so says my Econ BA.
> 
> If you want to better understand Price Fixing go watch the film The Informant.


You've outlined what I considered Price Fixing. After reading the two links above it seems there is also a broader meaning to the term.


----------



## ChuChu

bakesale said:


> Umm not it's not, LOL. Price Fixing has to be done with the collusion of the major players in the market or by having a monopolistic interest. it doesn't work unless you control the Market. It's intended to create a price hike by artificially restricting the supply of goods. To have a situation like Price Fixing you would have to see Burton, K2, Mervin, and Rossi all get together in one room and say "Snowboards are too cheap, lets jack the price up." Instead you have a company who commands a respectable part of the market going on their own to one of their vendors and saying "You're selling our stuff too cheaply, please don't do it, it hurts the reputation of our brand" And they continued to sell it cheaply then they eventually bring the hammer down and say "We asked you to stay closer to the MSRP and not discount so heavily but you failed to comply, we are pulling our contract"
> 
> You are Economics fail, so says my Econ BA.
> 
> If you want to better understand Price Fixing go watch the film The Informant.


How about we try reading instead ok?



> The defining characteristic of price fixing is any agreement regarding price, whether expressed or implied.


If all the snowboard retailers agree to limit discounts to certain % on a certain timeline/schedule, *that is price fixing*. Whether it's a supplier that is facilitating that agreement or not, the end result is that the consumer is paying artificially inflated prices aka price fixing. As Grizz mentioned and as you would know if you took 2 seconds to read before running your mouth, it is often referred to as "resale price maintenance".


----------



## Deviant

Leo said:


> Burton and other brands do not fix their prices. Burton fixes its own prices which is legal no matter how you look at it. K2, Ride, Mervin, NS, all set their own MSRPs. So why is Burton getting a bad rap here? Because you don't agree with their high prices? Because they are on top of the food chain? Stop buying from them then. Plain and simple. No matter what you say, Burton is the top seller and that most likely won't change. Consumers keep on buying Burton products. Retailers have to rely on this brand to drive up revenue. No Burton = very hard to compete and survive. Sierra will be hurt from this. Will they die out? Probably not, but one thing is for sure... they will not be selling the volume they do now.
> 
> Again, stop throwing the term "price fixing" if you do not fully understand it. You are misleading consumers by doing so. The only thing that Burton does different from other companies is charge higher prices. That's because of the fact that they are on top. Don't even for a second think that even NeverSummer wouldn't do this if they were in the big B's position. It is purely business.
> 
> As for that Flux article, I find no credibility in it. The guy sounds bitter and highly biased. More of the same old anti-Burton banter. If you want to objectively state facts, you do it by saying that your company simply cannot compete with Burton. You don't go around cry about how they flood the market and force this and that. That's just cry babying.
> 
> By the way, for online retailers, Burton does have a minimum amount that you can carry in order to purchase their products. It isn't nearly as bad as some of you make it out to be. This is no different brand like K2, Ride etc..
> 
> Again, let me pose this question. Why aren't any of you Burton bashers bashing the other manufacturers when they do the same exact shit? Actually, at least Burton is doing something about the rules being broken.
> 
> Once I hear some of you bashers saying the same things about Ride, K2, Mervin, etc... then I will see more credibility in you. From a retailer's stand point, the only thing different about Burton's rules are the prices they charge us for their products. Yes, they have a higher premium than other brands, but that's not shocking at all.


Ok as for flux being so anti-burton, if they hate the company to the point the are trying to say, they shouldn't have made a deal with burton for the flux disks to fit on an ICS board. If you really want to distance yourself from a company such as burton, don't associate yourself with them at all. Period.

For the pricing thing, people need to simply get over it, I don't think I should pay 100 bucks for a pair of jeans so I stay out of Abercrombie and Fitch. Pull the sticks out of your asses, if you don't like it, DON'T BUY IT. Coming on here and bitching like the old women at a grocery store complaining about prices, all that "oh such a horribly disgusting terrible overpriced company". GET. OVER. IT.

I agree with Leo on this, I will say I love K2's products, and specifically their bindings from a few years back (in fact my first 6 years or so were on K2 setups), but if we're going to bash the big companies you damn well better add K2 to the list. 



BurtonAvenger said:


> Anyone else find it ironic that Mike M.'s last post talks about how they're going to do Sierra bindings, boards, and outerwear? That's direct sales and that's something they're complaining about Burton for.


+2 :thumbsup: :thumbsup:



Mike.M said:


> *I am not here to change any persons opinion about sierrasnowboard.com, burton or myslef*


Seriously?


----------



## Leo

ChuChu said:


> Dude. It's textbook price fixing. Look it up before you start wagging your finger at other posters:
> 
> Price fixing - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


All your link did is prove me right 

"Price fixing is an agreement between participants on the same side in a market"

Okay, so I used the word "competitors" instead of "participants"

Sue me.

BurtonAvenger, I wasn't directing it at you. I was just making a reply to those who are misusing the term "price fixing".

A company can't be price fixing if they are alone. It has to be done in collusion with someone in the same or related market.

Burton is not price fixing. Period. Price gouging is a totally different matter.


----------



## Leo

ChuChu said:


> How about we try reading instead ok?
> 
> 
> 
> If all the snowboard retailers agree to limit discounts to certain % on a certain timeline/schedule, *that is price fixing*. Whether it's a supplier that is facilitating that agreement or not, the end result is that the consumer is paying artificially inflated prices aka price fixing. As Grizz mentioned and as you would know if you took 2 seconds to read before running your mouth, it is often referred to as "resale price maintenance".


Again you do nothing but prove me and Bakesale right with your quotes. Read your own links thoroughly. Better yet, read something a little more credible than Wikipedia, although that particular wiki is accurate.

All of the snowboard manufacturers are *NOT* agreeing to set discount restrictions. Furthermore, they do not even have the same time periods. Each brand has their own scheme and set of rules that has no relation to competing manufacturers.

Again, I suggest you get your facts straight. I, as an employee of a retailer, am telling you right now that K2, Burton, Ride, etc... have absolutely nothing to do with each other. There are no agreements between these companies. We agree to follow the rules because we have to in order to carry the products. Those are called "terms of contract". Has nothing to do with price fixing. Ultimately, we still have the choice to turn down the contract.

If all of these companies are forcing the same exact discount restrictions on us, then we have suspicion of price fixing. K2 has different rules from Burton. Burton has different rules from Ride. What more do you need in terms of proof?

EDIT: If you are calling the fact that retailers agree to the terms of these manufacturers "price fixing", then you are severely misguided on this matter. Then everything in the Manufacturer-Retailer relationship involves price fixing. Contracts are contracts. You can agree by signing, or say F off by ripping it into pieces. I hope you don't ever run a business with that type of mentality. You will fail miserably.

I have another comparison to bring up...

Video game vendors and console manufacturers. PlayStation, XBox, Nintendo, etc... How many of you own any of these? Ever noticed that they are the same price no matter where you look (auction sites excluded)? Why do you think this is? Are you about to call that price fixing too? If so, you are wrong. It would be price fixing if the PS3, XBox 360, and Wii all cost $300 to start and all dropped down to $200 at the same exact time. Actually, it could still be pure coincidence. There is still the matter of proving that these companies ever talked with each other. Again the example of NVidia and ATI come to mind.


----------



## Grizz

Leo said:


> Burton is not price fixing. Period. Price gouging is a totally different matter.


If you read the whole thing, "resale price maintenance" which Burton is absolutely engaging in, is according to the wiki a form of "price fixing".


----------



## zakk




----------



## Leo

Grizz said:


> If you read the whole thing, "resale price maintenance" which Burton is absolutely engaging in, is according to the wiki a form of "price fixing".


It isn't that either. On the surface, that's what it seems like because a lot of retailers will do the full discount. Burton limits us to a maximum of 40% discount. They do not say we have to sell it at a 40% discount. We can sell it at 25%. Some companies do, believe it or not. Go search the internet for their products and you will clearly see that not all retailers are doing the 40% off thing.

Actually, this part of the "resale price maintenance" is really a gray area. There is a "per se" rule. Here are some good articles that I found.

http://www.allbusiness.com/retail-trade/796733-1.html

https://litigation-essentials.lexis...cid=3B15&key=1e295c827b8171202853db6f8e9d068a


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## MunkySpunk

Semantics - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Pedant - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Leo

I love you Munky


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## Zee

Wikipedia is not always accurate... as Bakesale has said, price fixing involves collusion between the players in the industry. This is clearly not the case.

Price fixing only works where there are few players in the industry and the cost of entering the industry are high. An example would be the Airline industry. This is clearly not the case for snowboard manufacturing. Relatively speaking, it is pretty easy to set up shop and start making snowboards. If there are above normal profits in making snowboards, more snowboard shops will pop up. We are actually seeing this happen right now, with a lot of new players entering the industry. This will put downward pressure on prices, and a few companies will close and prices will creep up again. This is just plain old market forces at work. Right now, we are seeing a lot of snowboards on the market, because of the recession, but also because there are so many people making them.

So, from an economic standpoint, who makes more sense? I would say that Sierra's position is more intelligent than Burtons.

Burton has the ability to charge higher prices due to brand recognition. A lot of new riders want to buy Burton becasue of the name, and with the exception of the cheap 5150/Morrow class of boards, you see more beginners riding Burton than all other brands.

Where Burton is likely losing market share is the experienced rider (although I can't be sure of this). Generally, for about the same price, you can get better quality gear from other companies. People in the know are not willing to pay the premium for the Burton name. Some are, but many (myself included, are not).

So, Burton wants to charge higher prices for their gear? They need to make it better than their competitors, or they need to reduce how much of it is available. I don't know if you have taken a look lately, but there is a TON of Burton inventory out there. If Sierra has a 50% off sale on everything except Burton, then Burton loses out more than Sierra does. Someone looking for sale priced gear will just buy one made by someone else. If Burton truly wants to move "upscale" then they will have to either a) Reduce the supply to create an artificial excess demand due to the "Burton" brand, or b) Substantially improve their quality, which includes the length of the warranty. Last time I looked, Burton's warranty was only one year, which is not indicative of a "premium" product. They can't make themselves into a premium product by beating their retailers (big and small) over the head with contracts and minimum inventory requirements. While this is working partially for small shops, who are being forced to push out other vendors, it is hurting the overall revenue of small shops and many of them are being forced out by online retailers. The lack of variety, and excessive prices in smaller shops has become worse over the past decade. All of my snowboards were bought from small local shops in the past, and there was a lot of variety, and competitive prices. I walk into the local shop now and I see 80% Burton gear, mostly at or near regular price, it is pretty hard to drop $1K on gear that I can buy online for 40-50% of that. And you know what, it likely will not be Burton. The the local shop loses out, and Burton loses out. 

Yes, I'm an "evil online shopper" that "doesn't support my local shop", but you have to earn my business, not expect me to spend money at your shop because I should feel it is an obligation. If the local shop business model is broken, it is their responsibility to fix it, not the consumer's. I've bought stuff from Sierra, and other online retailers because there are 3 snowboarders in the family, and outfitting us all is not cheap. I need to stretch my snowboarding budget as far as I can. I've bought my kids Burton stuff from the local shop because they give 50% back on kids stuff for trade in, that makes it worth it. I have no personal beef with Burton, or any reason to back Sierra. I'm just calling things the way I see them.


----------



## Sam I Am

Seirra is joining Burton in *HELL*.


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## mjd

Zee said:


> If the local shop business model is broken, it is their responsibility to fix it, not the consumer's. I've bought stuff from Sierra, and other online retailers because there are 3 snowboarders in the family, and outfitting us all is not cheap. I need to stretch my snowboarding budget as far as I can.


all shops are different in one way or another. personally i don't consider ski mart, rei, ems, dicks, or any other muli-sport store a "local shop". i also don't consider ski area shops local either. these places tend to be franchises or obligatory cash cows set up because of their convenience on the hill and charge ridiculous prices or sell total crap. 

the 'real' local shop as far snowboarding goes (imho) is always owned and run by actual snowboarders who are not subsidized by parent corporations and usually only sell snowboarding gear and supplement the off seasons with skate and surf stuff or some other related sport. these stores tend to be smaller but still carry everything you need and have staff that know the industry and products inside-out and can give you straight up, robust answers on all your questions. they want you're business because it is not only their livelihood that depends on it but it's also their passion in life. they want to give you deals on the gear and they do. they want you to come in and carry on about what you thought of this board or that and so on. there's a quantifiable value in that kind of experience. it makes you appreciate the gear and sport a lot more. and you won't be paying that much more at all as opposed to saving 20 or 30 bucks at sierra on your computer. 

i'm not preaching or insinuating ppl should think like that- but talking from experience that's how i see it.


----------



## vanoot

I have never rode burton before (yes I was one of "those" people) but this season I got a Hero and consequently had to get burton bindings. I am finally impressed with Burton. But after hearing this, it's kinda' upsetting...


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## tooscoops

if its 20 bucks, i get it at the shop... but rarely is that all it is. i wish it was that simple. 

if people go to the lowest bidder, they are giving up something.. be it service, knowledge, quality, warranty... something. but sometimes thats all they want. get the board and never deal with that company again.


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## Zee

tooscoops said:


> if its 20 bucks, i get it at the shop... but rarely is that all it is. i wish it was that simple.


:thumbsup::thumbsup:

I'll pay a 10-15% premium to buy locally, not a 50-100% premium...


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## rader023

So how are you going to get your intuition liners molded for free online? When the shops are gone service is gone. The people that say my local shop sucks or they don't help me, well I am sorry that your shop sucks. The rest of us shouldn't have to suffer. BTW I walked into a local shop today and the prices beat or match anything you will find online (except for Sierra obviously). But for that extra 10% I will take some freaking service. Hell, I will pay full price to be properly fitted for boots.


----------



## vanoot

At the end of the year every year, my local store has a 50% off sale on that year's boards. They helped me out so much! I got a 2010 burton hero with free EST conversion baseplates. AND they set it all up for me.

I love my local store. Sure it doesn't have the selection of online, but I love it anyway.


----------



## Zee

vanoot said:


> At the end of the year every year, my local store has a 50% off sale on that year's boards. They helped me out so much! I got a 2010 burton hero with free EST conversion baseplates. AND they set it all up for me.
> 
> I love my local store. Sure it doesn't have the selection of online, but I love it anyway.


That's good for them, no reason to shop online if they are competitive. Like I say, it's all about the business model. Local stores have to compete with online, that's just the reality of it.

We don't get those type of discounts up here... The big box stores do put stuff 50% off, but most of that is lower end stuff that I really am not interested in. Plus, with the exception of the store that I buy my kids stuff from, the stores here are completely lacking in customer service and product knowledge.


----------



## campfortune

Extremo said:


> Let's forget this is sierra here.
> 
> If burton is needed to make profits (apparently because people are mind fucked by them and wouldnt conceivably buy another brand) how is it acceptable to all of you, that they get to set the volume a shop carries AND set their prices, only to leave that shop holding the bag when, at the end of the season, they still hold 30% of the product they were forced to carry? And then can't discount it at a MARKET determined price?
> 
> I mean if I bought the product it should be my decision to take a loss on capital, to see a return of some capital.
> 
> It seems to me that the only ones hurt by this are the burton retailers, regardless of the size or mode of operation, and the consumer (not me personally, I'll never buy that shit), and other companies that vie for floor space among burton goods.
> 
> The only beneficiaries in this situation is burton...not the industry, not the consumer and certainly not the shop. Burton seems to be putting shops in a difficult position, they're fucked if they don't carry them, and they're fucked if they do.



:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

Burton tried to change agreement AFTER Sierra made the order. that's definitely bully here.

well, hell, personally, I don't even care for Burton products. I think Sierra will do just fine without B products.


----------



## kenwg

*just a couple of comments*



ChuChu said:


> How about we try reading instead ok?
> 
> If all the snowboard retailers agree to limit discounts to certain % on a certain timeline/schedule, *that is price fixing*. Whether it's a supplier that is facilitating that agreement or not, the end result is that the consumer is paying artificially inflated prices aka price fixing. As Grizz mentioned and as you would know if you took 2 seconds to read before running your mouth, it is often referred to as "resale price maintenance".


Chu, I think you're being a little harsh on Leo here. Both case law and theory are all over the place on whether or not "Resale price maintenance" sometimes, all the time, or never falls under the definition of price fixing, as well as whether the net effect is a good or bad thing. The only thing that seems certain about whether or not it's price fixing is that there is "certainly" no agreement. Also, the "running your mouth" comment - do you have some dog in this fight that we don't know about, or does discussing econ theory just make you upset?



campfortune said:


> :
> Burton tried to change agreement AFTER Sierra made the order. that's definitely bully here.


I've heard different stories on this - don't know what the truth is. Do you have personal knowledge of when SS ordered and received delivery of product subject to the 2010 agreement? Please share it if you do...

Oh, one last addition - I heard from another store owner that it's not just Burton but K2 and others that have cut off SS, and that it was the large retailers - Sports Authority, etc - that pushed Burton and others to crack the whip. All 2nd hand, don't know how much is true.


----------



## jimster716

kenwg said:


> Oh, one last addition - I heard from another store owner that it's not just Burton but K2 and others that have cut off SS, and that it was the large retailers - Sports Authority, etc - that pushed Burton and others to crack the whip. All 2nd hand, don't know how much is true.


Sounds like the store owner was reading the sierra forums. Either way, I don't think Sports Authority would be involved. Their lineup for 2009-2010 at the stores was all low price point equipment...and by far dominated by Sims hard goods from boards, bindings, and boots. Definitely different from last year when it was more evenly spread between Burton, K2, and Ride...nothing to compete against Sierra.


----------



## ippy

This split seems like the best thing to happen to the sport  I <3 sierra, but fact is without burton theyll have to change their strategy a bit and start hyping some smaller brands willing to come on board with them. I think thats a pretty good thing at the end of the day  

Also as an international (british) customer i get the pointy end of the export stick. When companies arbitrarily switch out a dollar price for a pound sign you can be damned sure it makes me a bit irked. Companies like sierra help me get over that so im going to be pretty loyal to them and internet shopping in general. Companies can decide how they want to price their decks in the domestic market, and i will look for online sellers and/or loopholes using mail forwarding companies to get round their blatant attempt to steal from me. Start paying the premium and you might have a bit of sympathy. The hope is that the consumer has gotten wise enough that retailers in non-US markets will start putting pressure on companies like burton to offer better value, but since i assume theyll be more than happy in the next few years to exploit that market (and turn a blind eye to proxy addresses) for their own bottom line. I mean all it does is really kill off the middle man taking their cut, eh? win-win for burton if you ask me.


----------



## Zee

ippy is right on... when one of the largest retailers stops carrying one of the largest brands, it means more competition in the industry. That is not a bad thing.


----------



## Leo

campfortune said:


> :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:
> 
> Burton tried to change agreement AFTER Sierra made the order. that's definitely bully here.
> 
> well, hell, personally, I don't even care for Burton products. I think Sierra will do just fine without B products.


Obviously you haven't read through this thread in its entirety.

That "Burton changed agreement AFTER" theory was shot down.

As for all of you people doubting any of this, there are several retail employees here telling you the facts behind these agreements.

Burton doesn't force any retailer to carry a certain quantity. They have a minimum quantity requirement which is completely understandable. It's not worth the time, money, or effort for Burton to speak to, meet with, and discuss selling 200 of their products to a retailer.

Retailers aren't being muscled into carrying their stuff. They can always decline however hard it might make it to be profitable.

As for you smaller brand supporters, you are so blind. Don't even for a second think that these other brands don't have the same rules and terms. You are so quick to support these other companies when they are virtually no different from Burton's contractual terms. The only differences lie in the specifics like numbers.

Who here rides K2? Ride? Gnu? Lib Tech? Flow? Salomon? Rossignol?

Well, you better stop supporting these companies then. They are evil "price fixing" devils. They force us to wait until the end of the season to start our discounts. They tell us a maximum discount we can give to consumers. So very evil!!!

NeverSummer and Capita? I can't chime in on that one because we don't carry them, but I bet they have similar rules as well.

Burton is on top and people keep flocking to them. Get over it. There is nothing you, nor him, nor her, nor I, can do about it. Your little personal ban on them isn't going to change two shit fibers. Deal with it.

Unless some snowboarder decked out in all Burton gear comes up to you and stabs you in your leg for not riding a Burton, stop crying. Otherwise, move on with your blind altruism.


----------



## Extremo

Looks like sbf.com made this subject pretty popular

Friday Free For All: Putting Teeth In Online Dealer Service Agreements - TransWorld Business

Now we can bitch about burton somewhere they will see it!!


----------



## lonestarrider

Extremo said:


> Looks like sbf.com made this subject pretty popular
> 
> Friday Free For All: Putting Teeth In Online Dealer Service Agreements - TransWorld Business
> 
> Now we can bitch about burton somewhere they will see it!!


From the looks of that Convo, it sounds like they are loosing accounts daily. 

K2, Ride pulled out
Nitro Pulled out
Rumor Lib and all the quick brands pulled
Rumor Rome Pulled

I bet this guy didn't imagine all this happening when originally posted up here...


----------



## BurtonAvenger

lonestarrider said:


> From the looks of that Convo, it sounds like they are loosing accounts daily.
> 
> K2, Ride pulled out
> Nitro Pulled out
> Rumor Lib and all the quick brands pulled
> Rumor Rome Pulled
> 
> I bet this guy didn't imagine all this happening when originally posted up here...


Shit slides downhill doesn't it? 

Frankly if you act out after being busted for breaking the rules why would anyone else want to deal with you?


----------



## Milo303

lonestarrider said:


> K2, Ride pulled out
> Nitro Pulled out
> Rumor Lib and all the quick brands pulled





Got some proof? Not saying your wrong, but I def hadn't heard this being finalized.


----------



## Guest

When burton can make something good enough to compete with never summer, i am more than happy to pay 500 bucks to buy that...


----------



## Bones

Zee said:


> :thumbsup::thumbsup:
> 
> I'll pay a 10-15% premium to buy locally, not a 50-100% premium...


+1

I'll also pay a reasonable premium for bricks and mortar value added products/services like trying on dozens of pairs of boots before buying. I want the ability to do that and I'll pay for it.

But for commodity things like boards and bindings, I research online, go to manufacturer's demos and then buy on price. All I get from a store for these items is the instant satisfaction of walking out with my purchase, which isn't worth the markup to me.

I'm sorry if my local store suffers because of it, but maybe you've got to change your business plan. Online buying has changed the way reselling is done for a lot of industries, adapt or die. Wasn't that long ago that people would pay big $$ to their local computer store for the newest and fastest desktop PC. Nowadays, not so much.


----------



## Triple8Sol

Here's a question. Products from Burton and their related brands regularly pop up on Backcountry's ODAT sites. Always way more than 40% or even 50% off, more like 60-80% off. It's not always from previous seasons either. So why is that treated differently?


----------



## Milo303

Triple8Sol said:


> Here's a question. Products from Burton and their related brands regularly pop up on Backcountry's ODAT sites. Always way more than 40% or even 50% off, more like 60-80% off. It's not always from previous seasons either. So why is that treated differently?


I believe that was asked earlier as well.... We will be finding out shortly I would imagine.


----------



## RVM

I just found out that Sierra is losing Mervin Mfg. as well. 

If true (and my source is reliable), that means they won't carry GNU, Lib, Roxy or Bent Metal anymore. Of course, if it isn't true, then shame on me for the speculation.


----------



## Zee

Bones said:


> +1
> 
> I'll also pay a reasonable premium for bricks and mortar value added products/services like trying on dozens of pairs of boots before buying. I want the ability to do that and I'll pay for it.


There is value here, and I buy my boots from the local shop. I don't think it's right to try on a bunch of boots at the local shop then buy them online for a few bucks less.

The local shops didn't help at all when it came to my 32 boots completely sucking ass, or when I blew the laces on my Northwaves and was scrambling to get new ones. This whole beter service from local shops thing is generally a myth.



Bones said:


> But for commodity things like boards and bindings, I research online, go to manufacturer's demos and then buy on price. All I get from a store for these items is the instant satisfaction of walking out with my purchase, which isn't worth the markup to me.
> 
> I'm sorry if my local store suffers because of it, but maybe you've got to change your business plan. Online buying has changed the way reselling is done for a lot of industries, adapt or die. Wasn't that long ago that people would pay big $$ to their local computer store for the newest and fastest desktop PC. Nowadays, not so much.


Completely agree with this, I can't even get Never Summer in my city, 1 hour to awesome riding and no Never Summer retailer.



RVM said:


> I just found out that Sierra is losing Mervin Mfg. as well.
> 
> If true (and my source is reliable), that means they won't carry GNU, Lib, Roxy or Bent Metal anymore. Of course, if it isn't true, then shame on me for the speculation.


This would be a dumb move by Mervin and would indicate collusion between Mervin and Burton. Sierra was pretty well sold out of Mervin boards prior to any significant discounts hitting. It would make no sense to pull the plug if Sierra sold most of the boards at or near full pop.


----------



## RVM

Absolutely not true. I was in there not a couple of weeks ago and they had quite a few Mervin boards left. They had more than most other retailers in the area, that's for sure. Their current stock level for a lot of boards is higher than most local retailers stock at the beginning of the season.

It doesn't indicate collusion at all. Your statement is in fact a logical fallacy (and is circumstantial *at best*). K2 pulled out of Sierra as well as one or two other manufacturers. It might be (and most likely is) as simple as:

1. Sierra violates contracts with multiple manufacturers.
2. After many complaints from other retailers,
3. several companies pull their product from Sierra.






Zee said:


> This would be a dumb move by Mervin and would indicate collusion between Mervin and Burton. Sierra was pretty well sold out of Mervin boards prior to any significant discounts hitting. It would make no sense to pull the plug if Sierra sold most of the boards at or near full pop.


----------



## Meezi

I'm not going to lie, I'm glad I caught that 50% off sale! I got my girl a new Burton Lux & Lexa bindings for $300!! We bought boots from a local shop...

I like having the extra $200 in my pocket, that basically pays for one or two lift tickets to a different mountain besides the one I have a season pass to. Can't wait to see the new LV print Burton boards & matching boots.


----------



## Argo

Up in pagosa springs, Co I buy my boards, bindings, boots, clothing and pay pretty coliseum to online prices. I got 2 DC. Jackets and some pants for $150. Then I got Burton parts and north face jacket for $120. Have never paid over $220 for a board. They know us there now and usually will hook us up with free wax job on our board and will fix broken stuff for us as needed. I will stick with the locals.


----------



## Zee

RVM said:


> Absolutely not true. I was in there not a couple of weeks ago and they had quite a few Mervin boards left. They had more than most other retailers in the area, that's for sure. Their current stock level for a lot of boards is higher than most local retailers stock at the beginning of the season.


I haven't seen any Gnu or Lib boards on their site in a while, I'm not in a position to go check out their in store inventory.



RVM said:


> It doesn't indicate collusion at all. Your statement is in fact a logical fallacy (and is circumstantial *at best*).


Indicates!=Proves

So, go ahead and explain this statement of yours, especially which fallacy?

Mervin sells a lot of boards from Sierra at full price or near full price, and Sierra sells a lot of Burton boards at full price or near full price as well. Burton pulling out gives Mervin the opportunity to sell more of their boards at full price through Sierra, and gives them more power over Sierra to enforce their contract, or charge a higher wholesale price.

So this idea that Mervin and others are pulling out at the same time as Burton does not make sense.



RVM said:


> K2 pulled out of Sierra as well as one or two other manufacturers. It might be (and most likely is) as simple as:
> 
> 1. Sierra violates contracts with multiple manufacturers.
> 2. After many complaints from other retailers,
> 3. several companies pull their product from Sierra.


Other than the Burton/Sierra dispute, none of the above statements are confirmed. 

The only thing I have heard that may indicate that more than just Burton is pulling out is that Sierra may not have paid all their bills to some of the other vendors. However that is just a rumour and may or may not be true. Emphasis on *Rumour*.

If I was in a situation where I needed to move a ton of product to pay my bills, I sure as hell would do anything to get that product out and the revenue in, even if it meant violating an agreement or two.


----------



## RVM

They had quite a few in store. I don't check their website often.

I don't remember the name of the fallacy and I'm not going to bother looking it up. Essentially, you required something to be true, that wasn't provable as true, in order to reach your conclusion.

I somehow mistook you saying "indicates collusion" for "is collusion". My bad there. It would only have been a fallacy if the latter had been the case.

You're assuming a lot regarding Sierra's ability to sell Mervin gear. Just because Burton pulls out doesn't mean they will, and in fact, it could be argued they would sell less because not having Burton is pulling fewer viewers to the site. I think you're going a bit far here.

While I am sure Mervin watched/is watching the Sierra business situation, I don't think it's going to have a huge impact on whether Mervin continues to do business with Sierra or not. Mervin tends to sell their boards out whereever they are, so if Sierra isn't selling them that's fine, because some other retailer will be more than happy to, and that other retailer will probably be willing to honor their contract and not cause any headaches for Mervin. Kind of like Ground Zero, or Surf & Skate etc. 

I was told that K2 pulling out was confirmed. Obviously Burton is. The Mervin is not as of yet, but I *suspect* it will be. They lost another, smaller clothing/accessories manufacturer but for the life of me I can't remember the name.

I hadn't heard anything about them not paying bills. New to me!

It is unlikely Mike Harrosh will ever be in a situation in his life where he *has* to do anything unethical to pay his bills.

If you are willing to violate your word you are unethical and you should never sign the contract to begin with. The irony is that in violating contracts to pay bills, you may very well have a much larger, court ordered bill to pay that can only be removed via Chapter 10, or even worse, Chapter 13. If it can be proved (for instance, via this forum and your statement that you would indeed violate a contract to pay bills) that you signed a contract and had intentions to violate that contract if things went south, then you could very well be stuck with it, even with a chapter 13. That's called a bad faith contract and you can really get taken to task for it in court. 

I am actually very, very surprised Burton hasn't sued Sierra over this. Of course, they may very well be. I'm not privy to that stuff.

Principle and ethics > all else in business. Your attitude regarding contracts is part of why the world economy is in shambles. It's selfish and arrogant and, unfortunately, is actually a typical attitude among many business people.

Almost all of this is speculation, and should be taken as such.




Zee said:


> I haven't seen any Gnu or Lib boards on their site in a while, I'm not in a position to go check out their in store inventory.
> 
> 
> 
> Indicates!=Proves
> 
> So, go ahead and explain this statement of yours, especially which fallacy?
> 
> Mervin sells a lot of boards from Sierra at full price or near full price, and Sierra sells a lot of Burton boards at full price or near full price as well. Burton pulling out gives Mervin the opportunity to sell more of their boards at full price through Sierra, and gives them more power over Sierra to enforce their contract, or charge a higher wholesale price.
> 
> So this idea that Mervin and others are pulling out at the same time as Burton does not make sense.
> 
> 
> 
> Other than the Burton/Sierra dispute, none of the above statements are confirmed.
> 
> The only thing I have heard that may indicate that more than just Burton is pulling out is that Sierra may not have paid all their bills to some of the other vendors. However that is just a rumour and may or may not be true. Emphasis on *Rumour*.
> 
> If I was in a situation where I needed to move a ton of product to pay my bills, I sure as hell would do anything to get that product out and the revenue in, even if it meant violating an agreement or two.


----------



## LTManiac

RVM said:


> If you are willing to violate your word you are unethical and you should never sign the contract to begin with. The irony is that in violating contracts to pay bills, you may very well have a much larger, court ordered bill to pay that can only be removed via Chapter 10, or even worse, Chapter 13. If it can be proved (for instance, via this forum and your statement that you would indeed violate a contract to pay bills) that you signed a contract and had intentions to violate that contract if things went south, then you could very well be stuck with it, even with a chapter 13. That's called a bad faith contract and you can really get taken to task for it in court.


What the hell is Chapter 10? Do you mean Chapter 11 Bankruptcy? 

Sierra Snowboard is NOT an individual, so Chapter 13 would be out of the question. Of course they could go after the owner, but if Mike was stupid enough to keep his business as a sole proprietorship (which I highly doubt) then they would not be able to pierce the corporate veil. I'm not sure how the corp. structure is set-up for Sierra, but if they were to file for bankruptcy, it would most likely be Chapter 11.

Stop talking out of your ass. What is your background anyway? If you're a CPA or a Lawyer you should have your licensed revoked. These are basic US bankruptcy laws. Tax and Bus. Law 101 buddy.


----------



## RVM

Dude chill it was a typo/mindfart on the chap 11

No, I'm not a lawyer, nor a CPA, so my bankruptcy info isn't the strongest, but my contractual information is sound, which is the whole point. The fact of the matter is a bad faith contract (or bad faith anything, legally speaking) can get you royally fucked in court. I know this because while *I* am not a lawyer, my wife is, and the bad faith part is from her.

Stop trying to take the focus away from my point, which is that entering into a contract in bad faith is a great way to screw yourself over.



LTManiac said:


> What the hell is Chapter 10? Do you mean Chapter 11 Bankruptcy?
> 
> Sierra Snowboard is NOT an individual, so Chapter 13 would be out of the question. Of course they could go after the owner, but if Mike was stupid enough to keep his business as a sole proprietorship (which I highly doubt) then they would not be able to pierce the corporate veil. I'm not sure how the corp. structure is set-up for Sierra, but if they were to file for bankruptcy, it would most likely be Chapter 11.
> 
> Stop talking out of your ass. What is your background anyway? If you're a CPA or a Lawyer you should have your licensed revoked. These are basic US bankruptcy laws. Tax and Bus. Law 101 buddy.


----------



## killclimbz

Really guys? We are still going on about this? 

Yes we know Burton is gone. I too have heard the K2 rumor, and there is a strong possibility it's true. I can't imagine Sierra coming out and saying that happened. Snowball effect and all. Regardless, that will shake out in the next 6-8 months. Come September-October it'll be pretty obvious if they are still on board with K2 or not. 

In all honesty, I hope Sierra works their issues with their vendors. They were not told they couldn't discount their products just how steeply they could do it. Seems to me they should be able to abide by those rules. Also, as mentioned if they are getting beat up over this why is backcountry.com? Maybe because bc.com is a much bigger fish? 

Either way, this thread is really beating a dead horse. At this point I am at a wait and see approach to this.


----------



## Leo

killclimbz said:


> They were not told they couldn't discount their products just how steeply they could do it.


Actually, retailers are given a date to when the discounts can start. Not exclusive to Burton either.


----------



## BurtonAvenger

This is all you need to know Sierra Snowboards Is Ruining Snowboarding | Sierra Snowboards Is Ruining Snowboarding


----------



## legallyillegal

snowboarding screwed snowboarding


----------



## tooscoops

i feel like the cut and pastes earlier provide more info... or just reading this thread (after wading through some useless parts) gives a better picture...

if this is your site ba, you can do much better. its three links... two of them to ads for sierra, and one to the contract adendum... hardly enough to say its 'all you need to know'.

(not trying to test your knowledge as in a case like this, as you are exactally the person id ask if i had heard this elsewhere, but more giving some beta feedback to the site)


----------



## BurtonAvenger

HAHA I have better things to do than make a shitty site bagging on a shitty store. Plus I'm on vacation up at Bear in Cali I don't need to write dissertations about a patio store. But here's the question do you think there's a Patio Forum somewhere that's bitching about Sierra going off price on wicker sets?


----------



## rader023

BurtonAvenger said:


> HAHA I have better things to do than make a shitty site bagging on a shitty store. Plus I'm on vacation up at Bear in Cali I don't need to write dissertations about a patio store. But here's the question do you think there's a Patio Forum somewhere that's bitching about Sierra going off price on wicker sets?


I guess that Bear didn't eat you.? The frying pan worked?


----------



## Zee

Clue me on on the Patio Store references... I'm not following.


----------



## lonestarrider

Zee said:


> Clue me on on the Patio Store references... I'm not following.


Sierra is a big Patio Furniture retailer in there store front...


----------



## Zee

lonestarrider said:


> Sierra is a big Patio Furniture retailer in there store front...


Seriously? :laugh:


----------



## lonestarrider

Zee said:


> Seriously? :laugh:


Yep, there name is actually Sierra Snowboard, Ski, and Patio Furniture...


----------



## Leo

Funny how a lot of people here who hate Burton and won't buy from them based on principle will turn around and buy boards from a company like Sierra because they are selling at 70% discounts!

You read articles and blogs about Burton and start banning them. You get first hand accounts from other retailers and shop owners about Sierra's practices and you still defend them. Irony is ironic.


----------



## TB020

Why can't this thread just die :laugh:

why I don't agree with what sierra did, I can't deny that I have taken advantage of some of their sales. All in all they broke the rules, and they got to take the punishment. Don't see why there is a reason to defend that when they are getting a major advantage over other shops.

I don't blame Burton for what they did though. I'm sure if any of us ran a major company like that we'd be doing the same thing. It's business, it's a tough world, find me a company who's main focus isn't profits. :dunno:


----------



## killclimbz

I think that is what I was trying to reference. Most agreements allow some leeway in how much a retailer can discount off the bat if at all. I've rarely seen where a 10-20% discount is an issue.


Leo said:


> Actually, retailers are given a date to when the discounts can start. Not exclusive to Burton either.


----------



## legallyillegal

lonestarrider said:


> Yep, there name is actually Sierra Snowboard, Ski, and Patio Furniture...


my local store sells hot tubs who gives a fuck


----------



## lonestarrider

legallyillegal said:


> my local store sells hot tubs who gives a fuck


I don't think anybody does. He just asked to be clued in on the patio furniture comments...


----------



## Leo

It's just funny that's all.

Don't mind Legal, he's abrasive for no reason at all. One of those perpetually angry people.


----------



## lonestarrider

Leo said:


> It's just funny that's all.
> 
> Don't mind Legal, he's abrasive for no reason at all. One of those perpetually angry people.


Well he is from Texas!!


----------



## tooscoops

you know what they say... don't mess with texas!

... its not nice to pick on retards.



kidding kidding... don't shoot me.


----------



## LTManiac

TB020 said:


> It's business, it's a tough world, find me a company who's main focus isn't profits. :dunno:


That's pretty easy.. 

There are 1,783 non-profit associations/companies in my City.

Associations/Non-Profits Companies in San Jose, California (CA)


----------



## lonestarrider

R.I.P. Sierra!! Chapter 11 city...


----------



## killclimbz

lonestarrider said:


> R.I.P. Sierra!! Chapter 11 city...


And the thread resurrection of the week goes too...


----------



## buggravy

Resurrection or new development? (not a rhetorical question)


snowboard community forums - New Sacramnto Store


----------



## fattrav

I've ordered a few things through them. The service is great, but the international freight is an absolute joy kill. I'm fairly sure they'll just start discounting other companies...

That pretty much makes this fully resurrected


----------



## Guest

I would venture a guess that this latest move is legally strategic in nature.

It will take a few years, but this is one of the ways that Sierra can redeem themselves with key suppliers like Burton, and the Jardin companies.

It will not happen immediately, but it will be the only way that Burton can begin to do business with whatever entity Sierra morphs into after they reorg and rise victorious from the alligator ashes.

elvis costello said it well in his song "beyond belief"

"you say you have no secrets,
then leave discreetly"

the saga continues.......


----------



## Leo

I find it highly hypocritical of a lot of people that continue to buy from Sierra. You guys (to whom this applies) are so quick to hate on a company like Burton for their so-called "unethical business practices", yet you are the first one to snag an insane discounted product off of Sierra. Never mind that Sierra broke business agreements to undercut every other contract abiding retailer.

Oh the irony of it all. Will Sierra ever go under? I don't really think so. I'm sure they have other niche companies lined up to fill their empty Burton slot.

I don't really blame customers though. Cheap is cheap. Just don't go preaching about how unethical one company is only to shop at another unethical company.

And don't bother with ignorant remarks like, "it was Burton's fault for forcing limits on discounts". Every company does it. Even your fucking underwear brand. Unless it's a store exclusive brand.

Thread has now been officially resurrected. :thumbsup:


----------



## yusoweird

Local retail is tough business since the internet. Everyone wants free stuff. That's the way it is, take it or leave it. But I do believe in selling products that are reasonably priced and not marked up because of hype/advertisement. That is why I don't like companies like Apple. Burton is one of them.

What is 70% off of 2000%? It's all marketing crap. Same with every other products. The way I see it is that most products are made in China anyway, they already profit a alot...

Burton luxury my ass. I honestly don't believe that Burton is putting a discount restriction to balance sales for the mom and pops stores. I don't think Burton give a shit about them. They want profit and restricting discount is a way they can mark up future products...


----------



## DC5R

buggravy said:


> Resurrection or new development? (not a rhetorical question)
> 
> 
> snowboard community forums - New Sacramnto Store


Just read the posts there. I knew about SS losing Burton, but they lost K2 as well? What happened there?


----------



## killclimbz

K2 discontinued (thread is officially resurrected)for much the same reasons as Burton. At least that is my understanding. 

Hadn't caught the store closing thing. 

I don't really have a problem with Sierra. For the most part their gear was very REI like. Low to mid level stuff. Which is fine, that is the majority of your user. Not a lot of gear in there that I want to purchase, especially in hard goods. I've certainly bought some accessories and soft goods from them. I hate paying top dollar for outerwear, when it's something I ruin within a couple of seasons. Would rather spend it on new boards etc...

They've taken some lumps, and have approached some of their online marketing with a blunt hammer. Still, these guys are into the sport as hardcore as anyone. There is nothing wrong with trying to hook up fellow shredders with the best discount possible. It's just how they went about it. Some of the business decisions weren't as "sound" as they should of been. 

The Wilderness Exchange built up their business around offering the best discounts possible to rock climbers, back country sliders, and mountaineers. Snatching up close outs, seconds, and over runs. Don was very disciplined about how he did it. No reason Sierra can't do that too.


----------



## HoboMaster

It's too bad corporations strive to run as a profit business, rather then an outlet of what they selling. It's sort of like Warren Miller Films firing Warren Miller..... Question Mark? And sure enough the newest Warren Miller movie, the one without him was pretty lame.


----------



## Leo

yusoweird said:


> Local retail is tough business since the internet. Everyone wants free stuff. That's the way it is, take it or leave it. But I do believe in selling products that are reasonably priced and not marked up because of hype/advertisement. That is why I don't like companies like Apple. Burton is one of them.
> 
> What is 70% off of 2000%? It's all marketing crap. Same with every other products. The way I see it is that most products are made in China anyway, they already profit a alot...
> 
> Burton luxury my ass. I honestly don't believe that Burton is putting a discount restriction to balance sales for the mom and pops stores. I don't think Burton give a shit about them. They want profit and restricting discount is a way they can mark up future products...


What you say here proves my point. Hating Burton for those reasons is all good when said and done. But the second you buy from Sierra, you are supporting a business that is no better than Burton. They undercut all of the other retailers who were abiding by the rules no matter how negatively they felt about it.

Sierra = unethical. Then they go one this rant about how they were just trying to hook up fellow shredders. Yea, easy for them to say when their breach-of-contract tactics took so much business away from the rest of the retailers.

If you find an ethical tactic to take customers, more power to you. What Sierra did was very unethical from a competitor's standpoint.

You want to hook up fellow shredders? Give a price match guarantee. Don't break a contract with your manufacturers and sell shit at deep ass discounts and claim that you mean well. Bullshit.

Also, I don't know any business that doesn't run on profits. Even non-profitable organizations need funding. Everything in the business world is driven by money. There is simply no such thing as a free lunch. However, there are guidelines to being ethical and unethical in order to obtain profits or funding.


----------



## HoboMaster

I agree, human nature runs on profit. It's just a shame when these people who know absolutely nothing about snowboard end up running a company like Burton, and all they know how to do is, "If we outsource this to china, and cut back on this, that, and this, we will make more money". The image of a bunch of balding overweight corporate guys in suits running Burton is just what scares me.


----------



## buggravy

lonestarrider said:


> R.I.P. Sierra!! Chapter 11 city...



Still wondering if this was just an off-handed comment, or if you know something.


----------



## lonestarrider

yusoweird said:


> Local retail is tough business since the internet. Everyone wants free stuff. That's the way it is, take it or leave it. But I do believe in selling products that are reasonably priced and not marked up because of hype/advertisement. That is why I don't like companies like Apple. Burton is one of them.
> 
> What is 70% off of 2000%? It's all marketing crap. Same with every other products. The way I see it is that most products are made in China anyway, they already profit a alot...
> 
> Burton luxury my ass. I honestly don't believe that Burton is putting a discount restriction to balance sales for the mom and pops stores. I don't think Burton give a shit about them. They want profit and restricting discount is a way they can mark up future products...


I just have a quick question for you. Do you actually know how much markup is in a snowboard?? IF you know of a snow hard goods line that has a reputable name that has a 70% mark up. I would definately be all ears, heck I'll go to 50% mark up. Find me any reputable snow hard goods line with a 50% mark up. The fact of the matter is that, the reason these guys got put on blast. Is that we are all battling it out over 35-40% margin across the board. If you have a cost of operating @30-35%. That means you make $25-$50 off of a $500 deck. Let alone if you sell a $300 deck Thats any brand, not just Burton. The big misconception in this whole debate is that everyone thinks Sierra is making money by selling @ 70% off .When in fact they are loosing there A$$. And destroying everybody else's biz, while that glutoness ship sinks. Any snowboard companies entire marketplace is way more important to them, than one mega retailer.


----------



## RVM

I worked at Macy's for a time and they calculated sale discounts into the markup.

Point? Almost all discounts are accounted for in the retail price, and discounts are mostly for marketing purposes.

Since discounts are already accounted for I don't like to buy items that are full price. I don't like to give "extra" profit over the profit they already expected to be able to get on the item if on sale.


----------



## RVM

loinestarrider, I don't know of any retail product that isn't marked up 100% or more. I don't have exact figures on snowboards, but if it is like clothing, or shampoo, or curling irons, or refrigerators, then it's generally got at least a 100% markup.

Of course, I could be wrong here.


----------



## lonestarrider

RVM said:


> loinestarrider, I don't know of any retail product that isn't marked up 100% or more. I don't have exact figures on snowboards, but if it is like clothing, or shampoo, or curling irons, or refrigerators, then it's generally got at least a 100% markup.
> 
> Of course, I could be wrong here.


Not correct, where are some retailer on here?? Can we get some backing here?? Clothing yes, hardgood items thats a definite no.


----------



## Leo

There is one point you guys are missing. In the retail business, the more quantity of goods you purchase from a vendor, the better deals you get. Sierra was Burton's biggest retailer. They bought buttloads of products. I actually know the $$$ amount, but was told not to discuss that. I can just say it was way more than any other dealer that I know of. At that quantity, you are basically getting hundreds of boards for free. Why do you think they can do so many give-aways? Sierra makes a huge profit regardless of the 70% discount when they basically drive all of the customer traffic to their site.

I'll tell you this much, we sold basically 0 Burton products during this whole debacle. And that was our best selling brand. Now try and say what Sierra did wasn't wrong.


----------



## lonestarrider

Leo said:


> There is one point you guys are missing. In the retail business, the more quantity of goods you purchase from a vendor, the better deals you get. Sierra was Burton's biggest retailer. They bought buttloads of products. I actually know the $$$ amount, but was told not to discuss that. I can just say it was way more than any other dealer that I know of. At that quantity, you are basically getting hundreds of boards for free. Why do you think they can do so many give-aways? Sierra makes a huge profit regardless of the 70% discount when they basically drive all of the customer traffic to their site.
> 
> I'll tell you this much, we sold basically 0 Burton products during this whole debacle. And that was our best selling brand. Now try and say what Sierra did wasn't wrong.


I hear ya loud and clear. I just don't buy that they were making money...


----------



## Leo

And no, there is no 100% markup on snowboards. Who knows how much it costs Burton to make the board, but on the retailer side, we definitely do not have a 100% markup. Nowhere near that.

The truth of the matter is, profits for new snowboards are quite low. The profits come from close outs which translate into those end of season sales to you guys. Towards the end of the season, retailers get much better cost on close-outs.

Local shops are different. They do not have the type of payroll that larger companies do. So yes, shops do make more profit per sale. The problem is, the number of sales in shops is dwarfed by any online retailer's numbers.


----------



## Leo

lonestarrider said:


> I hear ya loud and clear. I just don't buy that they were making money...


Well, perhaps "huge" was over exaggerated, but they did make a good profit. I really believe that Sierra was concerned about last year's sales levels because of the massive amounts of Burton products they had left. This was a move to make sure that they got all of the customers before any other retailer started their discounts so they could push out the inventory.

So did they make more or even as much profit as they would have under normal circumstances? Not at all. But they did profit much more than other retailers with Burton products. Much more.


----------



## killclimbz

Lonestarrider is correct on the 40 margin for retail outlets. A 40% mark up is pretty much what the outdoor retail industry works off of. Some things net them a little more, some less, but to make it fly 40% is what they are after.


----------



## yusoweird

lonestarrider said:


> I just have a quick question for you. Do you actually know how much markup is in a snowboard?? IF you know of a snow hard goods line that has a reputable name that has a 70% mark up. I would definately be all ears, heck I'll go to 50% mark up. Find me any reputable snow hard goods line with a 50% mark up. The fact of the matter is that, the reason these guys got put on blast. Is that we are all battling it out over 35-40% margin across the board. If you have a cost of operating @30-35%. That means you make $25-$50 off of a $500 deck. Let alone if you sell a $300 deck Thats any brand, not just Burton. The big misconception in this whole debate is that everyone thinks Sierra is making money by selling @ 70% off .When in fact they are loosing there A$$. And destroying everybody else's biz, while that glutoness ship sinks. Any snowboard companies entire marketplace is way more important to them, than one mega retailer.


When I said mark up, I meant by the makers, not retailers.

And I am sure Sierra makes money by volume. If they can make $10 on a board, they just need to sell more by undercutting. It's pretty simple. And inventory have to be cleaned out or otherwise taxed.

Yes, it is dirty tactics by undercutting everyone and it's bad for the snowboarding industry. But I don't blame Sierra for it. It is legitimate. Most profit are made by the manufacturers, not retailers. Burton choose to give bulk discount because they want more profit. All they have to do is to not give bulk discounts. Prices are controlled by the manufacturers, not retailers. I don't think its wrong for undercutting because at the end, they have to work harder to sell more. It's Burton fault for providing bulk discount to enable undercutting by a large margin. Cut the bulk discount and you won't be seeing as much undercutting, which means Burton won't be making as much profit either...


----------



## killclimbz

Manufacturers are not marking it up that much either. They are pretty much going by the 40 margin guideline also. Materials, labor, etc, don't come cheap.


----------



## yusoweird

Labor not cheap in China? Isn't some Burton product are made in China? Sorry if I am not being clear. I consider Burton the manufacturer, not the actual factories. Burton is sucking up most of the profits.


----------



## killclimbz

Labor is cheaper in China, but I'd bet even big B is still getting around that 40 margin. All it does is make their boards less expensive at the retail level. I know a manufacturer in the outdoor sports world that had all their gear produced in China. The reason why is that they could bring it to market for cheaper with the same quality as using US manufacturers. Who btw, he tried to work with for over a year. After getting "*we can't do that*" with real high costs that would make him have a product that cost twice as much at the store as a competitor he checked into China. With the Chinese manufacturers he got "*we can do that*" and with the cost effectiveness he needed to just make it fly. There in lies the problem with getting stuff done in the US. "We can't" is the prevalent attitude with third party manufacturers here not "We can". That alone is why you see so many companies outsource to China. I don't feel any pain in buying a product made abroad for that reason alone. Get off you ass and earn it, quit asking the government for a dime.


----------



## yusoweird

Well, the point with Burton is that they don't want their retail price to be lower even when they outsource to China. They want to continue to raise their price because they want the "luxury" tag on their product... 

I guess theres a reason why we are in so much debt. 

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2187rank.html


----------



## lisevolution

I get the whole support the local store not the on-line retailer piece that is the general argument amongst retailers in general but like other have said here not all of us are lucky enough to have quality local shops. I live on Long Island here in NY and the only shops we have are your standard ski, snowboard, patio, kayak shops. Yes the manager of the shops usually knows a good amount but the people who actually work the floor are clueless. Then because I'm a big dude with wide feet they never have my size in stock. I've literally had the shop kid take out the different catalogues he has when I ask for a suggestion on a board hoping he might be able to shed some light on something... it's like Dude I know more than you do about your gear why are you selling it to me? 

The issue of Sierra vs. Burton to me reeks of straight greed from both sides. I get what Burton is trying to do but then they go and give exclusive closeout rights to a shop like The House... big help to the mom and pops there. Both sides screwed the other over, it's america time to move on. We will all continue to get our gear discounted if we want to or buy local and pay MSRP is we want to. To each their own. If Sierra is out looks like i'll have to buy from Backcountry more often and only get 30-40% off instead of 50%. Oh well


----------



## legallyillegal

i like it when shopkids brag about the sweet board they got on proform and then wonder why people don't want to pay full retail for gear


----------



## Leo

legallyillegal said:


> i like it when shopkids brag about the sweet board they got on proform and then wonder why people don't want to pay full retail for gear


Why should shop kids pay full retail?

People will call them a poser for having the latest greatest gear and they hate on them if they got something on proform. Lose-Lose situation. Get over it. If you don't want to pay full retail, then go work for a shop or a retailer's office.


----------



## BurtonAvenger

word on the street is sierra's bankrupt. The Angry Snowboarder Blog Archive Sierra Snowboard Bankrupt?


----------



## lisevolution

Leo said:


> Why should shop kids pay full retail?
> 
> People will call them a poser for having the latest greatest gear and they hate on them if they got something on proform. Lose-Lose situation. Get over it. If you don't want to pay full retail, then go work for a shop or a retailer's office.


If you really have to ask that question... seriously. I'm far from the person who will come on here and flame up but you have to be kidding me with that question. What makes some punk who works at a shop that doesn't know shit about the equipment he's selling deserve to get 50% off a board anymore than I do? I fucking work for a living too and the shop kids are on here slamming us for wanting to save as much money as possible? I'll tell you what, switch spots with me for a month and work 70 hour weeks in a super high-pressure, people wanting to kill themselves world where the only release I get is to get out snowboarding in the winter and mountain biking in the summer and only be able to get minimum days at that. Every dollar I can save on my gear is more money I can spend to actually enjoy my gear and my free time. And then I'll switch with you and work maybe 40 hours in a shop, give out shitty advice to try and sell the equipment I have in stock and then brag to all my friends about how my gear is the shit and I only had to pay XXX for it. 

Look, I'm not trying to be a dick, and in general Leo I've agreed with a lot of what you have said on this board from what I've read and most of your advice has been pretty good so don't take it personally, your comment just pissed me off a bit. I'm not saying all shop kids are schmucks but you know what I mean because you probably work with some of them...


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## burritosandsnow

lisevolution said:


> If you really have to ask that question... seriously. I'm far from the person who will come on here and flame up but you have to be kidding me with that question. What makes some punk who works at a shop that doesn't know shit about the equipment he's selling deserve to get 50% off a board anymore than I do? I fucking work for a living too and the shop kids are on here slamming us for wanting to save as much money as possible? I'll tell you what, switch spots with me for a month and work 70 hour weeks in a super high-pressure, people wanting to kill themselves world where the only release I get is to get out snowboarding in the winter and mountain biking in the summer and only be able to get minimum days at that. Every dollar I can save on my gear is more money I can spend to actually enjoy my gear and my free time. And then I'll switch with you and work maybe 40 hours in a shop, give out shitty advice to try and sell the equipment I have in stock and then brag to all my friends about how my gear is the shit and I only had to pay XXX for it.
> 
> Look, I'm not trying to be a dick, and in general Leo I've agreed with a lot of what you have said on this board from what I've read and most of your advice has been pretty good so don't take it personally, your comment just pissed me off a bit. I'm not saying all shop kids are schmucks but you know what I mean because you probably work with some of them...


Shop kids get a proform because its a perk of their job. A shitty shop kid wont have a job long and thus wont have the perk. Every job has perks, you work 70 hours a week and to many of the people where I work that would be a perk. Im not sure how every shop does it but places Ive had experience with dont let a shop kid get a job on Friday and proform 2k worth of gear on Saturday they have to earn the right to proform. The proform/discount perk is usually one of the biggest draws for getting kids to work at a shop. Because of these perks they generally have lower pay scales than other jobs.


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## lisevolution

No I get it, I just didn't like the tone of his comment and it got my juices flowing... ;-) My whole thing is don't tell me as a consumer that I should feel bad for shops and shop kids if I can get something at a severe discount just because I don't work at a shop and can get gear on a pro-form. If you don't pay full price for your gear you have no right to chastise the average person for looking to save every dollar they can when given that opportunity. We all work hard to earn a living and enjoy this sport which is incredibly expensive that was all I was trying to say. 

I have different experiences here in NY with our "shops" than people out west do without question. In fact I actually enjoy going into the shops when I'm out west and talking product with the people because it does give me more insight and generally the people actually know more than I do and can help give on-snow insight into the products I'm talking about. Even what I said to Leo at the end of my comment was very true.


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## burritosandsnow

lisevolution said:


> No I get it, I just didn't like the tone of his comment and it got my juices flowing... ;-) My whole thing is don't tell me as a consumer that I should feel bad for shops and shop kids if I can get something at a severe discount just because I don't work at a shop and can get gear on a pro-form. If you don't pay full price for your gear you have no right to chastise the average person for looking to save every dollar they can when given that opportunity. We all work hard to earn a living and enjoy this sport which is incredibly expensive that was all I was trying to say.
> 
> I have different experiences here in NY with our "shops" than people out west do without question. In fact I actually enjoy going into the shops when I'm out west and talking product with the people because it does give me more insight and generally the people actually know more than I do and can help give on-snow insight into the products I'm talking about. Even what I said to Leo at the end of my comment was very true.


thats more understandable ... and Ive been in a few shops in NYC when ive been visiting there .. scary indeed


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## lisevolution

burritosandsnow said:


> thats more understandable ... and Ive been in a few shops in NYC when ive been visiting there .. scary indeed


You have no idea the type of crap I have to put up with. After maybe 2001 pretty much all of the core shops on Long Island shut down and the couple that are left are essentially skate or surf shops that sell snowboards in the winter or they fit the Ski/board/patio model and hire retards who can't fit boots, don't know their product and only give a discount if the gear is like 3-4 seasons old.


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## Leo

It's all good lise. You misunderstood me. My reply was to Illegal. His comment was outright ignorant. I was asking him why should shop kids pay full retail? That's just a perk of every single job out there. If you work for a plumbing company, you're going to get a discount on plumbing services. If you work for Best Buy, you are going to get a discount for electronics. That's just the name of the game.

Illegally makes it seem like attitude has something to do with getting a proform discount. Basically, he sounds like a hater. My main point is, you can be a dick, indifferent, or GODLY shop employee, but none of that matters in regards to an employee discount. Proforms are a perk of the job like someone stated.

I never said anything about the consumer having to pay full price. That is your choice as a consumer. Either get something brand new at full retail or wait for the sales. Retail companies do not have any say in the matter of prices in regards to new products. Hell, we don't have much say in the level of discounts either.

On the flipside, do you guys realize we also can't over charge for snowboards? It's a two-sided deal. Like I said, the profits actually come from close-outs that we sell at discounts to you customers. Yes, we make some profits from new items, but it's no where enough to sustain the business. 

I'm all about the consumer. We are a heavily consumer conscious company. When we were smaller, we saw customer complaints getting out of hand. The founder totally revamped the shipping department and hired 20+ customer service reps up from about 5. We have monthly clinics where customer service reps are trained by the actual reps for the various sports companies. Also, 90% of the employees in this company participate in the various sports that we sell equipment for. Including the founder. It's not a requirement, but he always pushes employees to try and pick one up.

Not trying to toot this company's horn or anything. Just trying give you guys an example of an Internet sports retailer that is actually trying to do things the right way. We are not all evil. Try and see both sides of the issue.

In a perfect world, everything would be free and people would be willing to work to provide these free things. But this is not a perfect world. In this world, if things became free, nobody would work. There is no such thing as an altruistic company. Not even a charity. Money and profits is always the major driving force. Does that mean all businesses are evil? Certainly not. I look at myself in this situation. I love money and want to make lots of it. However, I also love to share the wealth with family and friends. I'm profit driven in an ethical manner. Sierra on the other hand, blatantly, greedily, and selfishly breached contracts to say "fuck you" to their competition. What's worse is that they tried to make themselves look like fucking heroes. Give me a break.

Again, I don't defend shop kids who have no business telling me which board to buy based purely on height alone. I'm just saying their personal discounts have nothing to do with their attitude. Yea it does suck that actual snowboarders can't get the same discount, but that isn't even feasible. Hence me saying just get a job in the industry then. You don't have work for shops to get them. I'm sitting in a cubicle as we speak.


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## lisevolution

I'm with you Leo, I was just having an "Angry Snowboarder" moment. Sometimes the bad day at work, the fact I'm still dealing with a severe back injury that fucked my season and now my MTB season comes out and your comment just triggered my reaction! Generally speaking I completely agree with you, perks are part of every job, like I happen to get paid pretty well for working in the crazy high-pressure environment I do so that's the perk of my job. I have the trade off of constant threat of stroke or heart-attack but hey the money's good! Lol 

The way Sierra handled the whole situation was just an interesting study in trying to rowse the crowd to get behind them which apparently didn't work out. I will definitely miss their sales though, and just wish I had taken more advantage of them when I had the opportunity...


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## DC5R

From a business point of view, I'd say SS got what they deserved for breaking their contract. However, as a snowboard enthusiast who has bought quite a bit of gear from them at discounted prices, I have to say I will miss their sales.


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## BurtonAvenger

The Angry Snowboarder Blog Archive More News On Sierra Snowboards Possible Bankruptcy just posted this and have another email from someone claiming to be the informant giving me some bankruptcy documents.


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## RVM

Good stuff.

And seriously, who didn't see this coming?

Also interesting in one of the comments to your article:

Party: Michael Anthony Management, Inc.
Case Number: 1-10-CV-170404
CaseTitle: The Burton Corporation Vs Michael Anthony Management, Inc., Et Al
Case Category: Breach Of Contract/Warranty – Unlimited

Date Time Dept. Event Result Result Date
Thursday, May 27, 2010 09:00AM 09 CV Pet: Writ of Attachment Granted 05/27/10
Tuesday, May 18, 2010 09:00AM 09 CV Misc Motion Granted 05/18/10



Apparently good 'ole Mike Harrosh is being sued. This also ties his management company to the bankruptcy. 

Looks like this isn't rumor anymore.





BurtonAvenger said:


> The Angry Snowboarder Blog Archive More News On Sierra Snowboards Possible Bankruptcy just posted this and have another email from someone claiming to be the informant giving me some bankruptcy documents.


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## killclimbz

Yeah, pretty damming evidence there. Definitely looks like Sierra has moved to bankruptcy. It's chapter 11 not 7, so they do plan to be around. Of course if they can't work out a deal with their creditors, it could move to a 7 and complete liquidation of the company.


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## RVM

BA mentioned on his Facebook page that some of the accounts Sierra is being sued for are worth millions each... I can see this moving from chapter 11 to chapter 7 very quickly if those amounts are accurate.



killclimbz said:


> Yeah, pretty damming evidence there. Definitely looks like Sierra has moved to bankruptcy. It's chapter 11 not 7, so they do plan to be around. Of course if they can't work out a deal with their creditors, it could move to a 7 and complete liquidation of the company.


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## BurtonAvenger

The Angry Snowboarder Blog Archive Sierra Snowboards Officially In Chapter 11 Bankruptcy heres a bit more on the Burton court case and their chapter 11 filing. After looking at that don't tell me it won't move to a chapter 7.


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## RVM

Good stuff. Thanks for posting it.



BurtonAvenger said:


> The Angry Snowboarder Blog Archive Sierra Snowboards Officially In Chapter 11 Bankruptcy heres a bit more on the Burton court case and their chapter 11 filing. After looking at that don't tell me it won't move to a chapter 7.


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## killclimbz

It certainly could go 7, no doubt. Still, the lawsuit between Burton and Sierra is done for the time being. The Chapter 11 filing takes care of that. Not sure where it is going but it's gone. I hadn't realized Sierra was born out of Tri-City. Interesting. I'd rather not see them go, but I am also not quite sure if they can live with the changes they are going to have to make.


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## Milo303

RVM said:


> Good stuff. Thanks for posting it.


Repeated attempts to get hits for his site, from this forum is like nails on a chalk board to me.

Just post the text here if you were actually just about getting the info out and not raising your hit count.

I'm having a shitty day and may feel bad for posting this it a later time but whatever.


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## BurtonAvenger

Milo303 said:


> Repeated attempts to get hits for his site, from this forum is like nails on a chalk board to me.
> 
> Just post the text here if you were actually just about getting the info out and not raising your hit count.
> 
> I'm having a shitty day and may feel bad for posting this it a later time but whatever.


Actually douche juice all the info I got was directly sent to me, I put it all in one place cause you know it's somewhat easier to do that than to go to every fucking forum and do it. Then I link back to it incase people are interested. If I gave a fuck about hits I'd have just paid someone to do more SEO for me. But it's OK you had a shitty day at your shitty job digging ditches in 100 degree heat while I was up snowboarding still. Don't be jealous your life sucks and you should suck on the end of a shotgun and finish it off.


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## little devil

What would b.a. have to benefit from page views? He doesnt have ads. 

b.a. Why dont you get some money back from the work you put in? Hell, the ads dont even have to be anything about boarding. 

I must be missing somthing? 

Through all the mean shit(i laugh at) your actually a nice dude?


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## DC5R

I'm glad I didn't buy anything from Sierra recently.


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## AlexS

Well i came to this thread pretty late for how much i use(d) SS. i kind of just skimmed it, but i wish you guys luck in recovering, and moving on.


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## ComeBack_Kid

BurtonAvenger said:


> Actually douche juice all the info I got was directly sent to me, I put it all in one place cause you know it's somewhat easier to do that than to go to every fucking forum and do it. Then I link back to it incase people are interested. If I gave a fuck about hits I'd have just paid someone to do more SEO for me. But it's OK you had a shitty day at your shitty job digging ditches in 100 degree heat while I was up snowboarding still. Don't be jealous your life sucks and you should suck on the end of a shotgun and finish it off.


Haha, you are certainly a classy one! Feel free to die in a fire soon


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## BurtonAvenger

ComeBack_Kid said:


> Haha, you are certainly a classy one! Feel free to die in a fire soon


Already roasting in the fires of hell with John Wayne and Lassie.


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## Miles_K

Yo BA, thanks for the post. It was super helpful. :thumbsup:

I'm anxious to see out this all turns out. I'm not a huge fan of SS, but hey, hopefully something good will come out of all this.


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