# Good riders, Bad Form?



## chomps1211 (Mar 30, 2011)

In my limited time/experience snowboarding, I have noticed quite a lot of riders who "seem" to be able to shred quite well, but do so using form that appears to be completely contrary to the accepted teachings and advice I've read and viewed. 

To be specific, they bomb down the slope, fast and in control (...appear to be anyway), and seem to have the skills to easily stick various tricks. I.E. jumps, spins, butters & switch,.. but they _do so_ with what I have been taught is totally "Bad" form & technique. They ride while having their upper bodies & shoulders completely open and facing forward. Lots of these riders look as if they're completely counter rotated for *all* of their turns & even when their bombing flat straight down the hill!!! (...remember now, I'm in the midwest & these are "bunny hill" resorts not big mnt.) More than a few even manage to "_killit_" while rockin' the whole "Mystery Date" look!!!

I bring this up because I am still struggling somewhat with balance on the board and the edges feeling "catchy"! For me, ANY lapse in technique or letting my shoulders get open, results in the board doing things that scare the shit outta me!

Don't mistake what I'm asking here, I'm not asking if it's ok for me to start riding with bad form,.. Just wondering how _so many_ seem to get away with it! while riding with WAY more skill & confidence than I can!!!

[edit]
...is it one of those, "once you learn the "Rules" _THEN_ you can start to break them kinda things??


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## SnowDragon (Apr 23, 2012)

Gotta say I'm also curious on this question.

I can ride pretty much any marked run, small hills or big mountain, but I'm going for my Level 2 instructor cert. here in Canada next weekend and I'm nervous about maintaining "proper" form during the course.
And yes, I too see guys riding with "technically" improper form, yet flying around the slopes.

I'm sure many on here don't necessarily respect the standards from AASI or CASI, but they are the ones who certify people to teach.

Any thoughts?


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## Lamps (Sep 3, 2011)

chomps1211 said:


> In my limited time/experience snowboarding, I have noticed quite a lot of riders who "seem" to be able to shred quite well, but do so using form that appears to be completely contrary to the accepted teachings and advice I've read and viewed.
> 
> To be specific, they bomb down the slope, fast and in control (...appear to be anyway), and seem to have the skills to easily stick various tricks. I.E. jumps, spins, butters & switch,.. but they _do so_ with what I have been taught is totally "Bad" form & technique. They ride while having their upper bodies & shoulders completely open and facing forward. Lots of these riders look as if they're completely counter rotated for *all* of their turns & even when their bombing flat straight down the hill!!! (...remember now, I'm in the midwest & these are "bunny hill" resorts not big mnt.) More than a few even manage to "_killit_" while rockin' the whoyle "Mystery Date" look!!!
> 
> ...


Is say avoid developing bad habits, you may have to unlearn them later. No doubt there are guys with unusual riding stances that are very good but good form makes for the easiest riding and fastest progression. Might be no difference to bring the mystery date on the blues but maybe that stance won't work so good on steeper terrain.


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## mitch19 (Jul 27, 2011)

I see a lot of people go pretty much straight - wash of speed - straight wash off speed etc whilst riding and it looks horrible. On bunny hills/Green and even blue runs most people will get away with it as being able to 'ride' but as soon as you try to ride anything that requires more technique, they have no chance.

I know when I get tired/bored/run out I tend to get lazy and will do it as well and have to slap myself so I don't pick up bad habits


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## Donutz (May 12, 2010)

This isn't just a snowboarding problem, it's a general sports problem. People can become quite good at whatever while doing everthing wrong. But if they had done it right, they'd be farther ahead with less effort.


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## slyder (Jan 18, 2010)

Chomps great observation and so true here at our resorts in WI as well.

What I personally noticed when I went to Granite Peak and was riding the double blacks. I had to VERY much concentrate on good form and I was able to ride them and have fun. That was where, (excuse wrong terminology) Snowolf taught me about dynamic movements??? and to really keep my weight on the front of the board to be able to control my turns. 
I was not bombing these runs but very meticulously getting down, what to me was very steep runs, and GP does have them.
My whole point is if I wouldn't have been practicing this at our home hill on green/blue/blacks I wouldn't have been able to try these runs at the better resorts.

Also when I taught myself to ride switch is when I noticed bad habits in my normal riding. Starting over you really must emphasize the correct riding form.

Follow good form and I use all those people to teach/reinforce form to myself and my kids, especially me. My kids sometimes just say "I knoooow dad...." yet they open their shoulders anyway....


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## BurtonAvenger (Aug 14, 2007)

Personal Style > Robot Teaching Techniques!


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## Toecutter (Oct 11, 2009)

chomps1211 said:


> More than a few even manage to "_killit_" while rockin' the whole "Mystery Date" look!!!


I'm not quite sure what this means but I'm chuckling anyway.


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## ShredLife (Feb 6, 2010)

not AASI certified:


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## slyder (Jan 18, 2010)

Toecutter said:


> I'm not quite sure what this means but I'm chuckling anyway.


You don't know what the mystery date is??


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## hktrdr (Apr 3, 2012)

slyder said:


> You don't know what the mystery date is??


It's not like it is a universal term...

To the guy who asked the question: 'Mystery date' refers to the common but generally undesirable habit of having the back hand in front of the body/across the toe edge (like hugging a date) - this is especially counter-productive/bad form in toe-side turns.


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## slyder (Jan 18, 2010)

wasn't trying to come off that way just a simple question. Ok maybe the 'is ??' made it appear that way....my bad.

There are so many terms I don't know. I goggled "Off Piste" today as our largest local hill is 700' feet and there is no where to ride other than the trail.
Hell the other day I got flamed for not knowing skinning, no biggie. another term I have no use for and no clue what it referenced 

I was looking for an image to post of "mystery date" but goggle didn't really have any.


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## john doe (Nov 6, 2009)

There is a lot of room for "bad form" in snowboardign as long as the very basics are taken care of. Weight centered and legs loose. The board doesn't care where your torso is. The reason that is taught as proper form is because until you learn to control your feet/legs then your torso will have an effect on what your feet/legs do. As you said it is a case of once you learn the rules you can break them. In fact almost all tricks require a breaking of the basic rules. Ruddering is bad unless your lining up for a trick and need to scrub speed with out making turns. Turning your torso is bad unless your trying to spin.


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## wrathfuldeity (Oct 5, 2007)

ShredLife said:


> not AASI certified:


Perhaps form is relevant to the hill and style. Maybe we get ideas of form from "ideal or academic" from from teaching and/or from the perfectly groomed trail...which would be nice...perfectly predictable/repeatable run. However reality, at least at baker, the snow, conditions and the terrain often changes from day to day if not from hour to hour. Thus, on one hand its what ever gets you down the hill form. Alot of good riders around here, "is the real world"...hold on/hang on for as long or big as possible...yea maybe bad form but fun. Though folks like Temple (vid below) have great flowing form because of lots of power and great line selection.

DRIZZLE on Vimeo


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## chomps1211 (Mar 30, 2011)

BurtonAvenger said:


> Personal Style > Robot Teaching Techniques!


...I admire the way you can oft times boil it right down to a couple word phrase that pretty much say's it all!!! I imagine following the "rules" is better suited for those of us without so much "Natural Athletic Ability!" At least in the beginning.

_As for the "Mystery Date,.."_


Toecutter said:


> I'm not quite sure what this means but I'm chuckling anyway.





slyder said:


> You don't know what the mystery date is??





hktrdr said:


> It's not like it is a universal term... Mystery date' refers to the common but generally undesirable habit of having the back hand in front of the body/across the toe edge (like hugging a date) - this is especially counter-productive/bad form in toe-side turns.


N-a-a-h!! I was talking about how so many people on the hill look like "Chuck Woolery!" :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: (...Holy Fuck I'm Old!!) :laugh:


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## Argo (Feb 25, 2010)

Ne of the new employees that started recently is from our area, had boarded granit peak. When I took her down a black here she freaked out. She said it our blues are equal to double blacks in Illinois/Wisconsin where she rode before. I got her used to it now, pretty much. She can't straight line the lacks yet with my son and I but she can get down the blues alright... Vail is considered mild in terms of steepness..... You should bring your boys out here for a couple days and totally freak out.... Golden peak terrain park in vail and park lane in breck have more vertical feet than granite.... 

You can cam on my front lawn with mixie......Put those good techniques to use...



slyder said:


> Chomps great observation and so true here at our resorts in WI as well.
> 
> What I personally noticed when I went to Granite Peak and was riding the double blacks. I had to VERY much concentrate on good form and I was able to ride them and have fun. That was where, (excuse wrong terminology) Snowolf taught me about dynamic movements??? and to really keep my weight on the front of the board to be able to control my turns.
> I was not bombing these runs but very meticulously getting down, what to me was very steep runs, and GP does have them.
> ...


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## MistahTaki (Apr 24, 2010)

ShredLife said:


> not AASI certified:


I would give them certificates


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## Clayton Bigsby (Oct 23, 2012)

hktrdr said:


> It's not like it is a universal term...
> 
> To the guy who asked the question: 'Mystery date' refers to the common but generally undesirable habit of having the back hand in front of the body/across the toe edge (like hugging a date) - this is especially counter-productive/bad form in toe-side turns.


Is this what you're talking about ? Snowboard carving technique: Extreme Carving Opus 3 - YouTube

You see this a lot in Europe and maybe Mt Hood for the race camps. Most riders today I feel dont know how to "carve", not turn but carve. Back in the day we used to compete and you competed in slalom and halfpipe, but over the years freestyle was where the money was, so slalom kinda died off (in the states), but there is still a handful of us old schoolers that enjoy carving. If you'd ever tried hardshell boots with plate binding on a race/slalom board you'd know it is a completely different style of riding and still fun to do on my All mtn boards. It gives you something to do if there's no fresh snow and killer groomers, give it a try, you might like it


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## Slush Puppie (Aug 15, 2011)

This was pointed out to me on my very first day. 

aka:

Shaking hands with the invisible man or
holding an invisible handbag

Also people using the plus/minus technique (rotating their shoulders into a + shape over the board, before swinging the board around back into a - shape.

In both cases it was pointed out that you can ride like this and some people can get down the hill just fine and plenty fast. I was shown a few people that were bombing down the hill just fine with both 'bad' techniques. (Once you see it, it's easy to recognise how untidy it looks). But that ultimately they'll hit a limit at some-point where it makes it hard for them to go further in their development.

If you're balanced and stable throughout a turn, then you can still use rotation etc to adjust if needed. But if you are off balance by default then anything unexpected and you're probably going to bite it.

That lesson has always stuck with me and I believe has had a positive effect on my own development.


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## tokyo_dom (Jan 7, 2013)

Slush Puppie said:


> But that ultimately they'll hit a limit at some-point where it makes it hard for them to go further in their development.


This is very true. I would think that i am a fairly adept rider; i can hit whatever run i want (though i dont like using that as a skill marker since any fool can sideslip down a 50 degree slope). But i know i have the same technique Chomps described: If i dont actively concentrate on it, my shoulders open up and my rear arm comes forward. I have done that technique for years and it doesnt cause me any problems in normal riding.

But when it comes to park jumps it plays a huge factor. I am 10x more stable in the air when i have concentrated on my upper body posture before i leave the lip. For backside spins it took me ages to realise that i couldnt generate enough rotation because i was already counter-rotated (couldnt counter rotate any more than that!).

So yeah you can get to be comfortable with the 'open shoulders' look, but damn i wish i had learnt correct technique from the start...


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## 70'sskater (Mar 20, 2014)

The 1st thing I think of as far as bad form goes is watching people bend at the waist and keeping their legs straight. Some people can ride anything by just by gutting it out. To last all day or all season I think it starts with the lower body. You need to bend at the knees and use the strongest muscles in your body, your glutes.


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## Gregory (Jun 18, 2017)

Only instructors during demonstrations and exams follow techniques of their particular system 100%, most of us don't have a "completely clean" technique that doesn't have anything from other methodologies.

If you are not aware of certain technique it doesn't mean it is an "incorrect" technique.
Many of us live in a "bubble" that was created by our instructor, not even knowing there is a different way.
Guys from New Zealand have a "+" position high speed carving in their highest level:
@6:45
[ame]https://vimeo.com/109786528[/ame]

Whereas their whole system is based on turns with shoulder rotation. So they use both "+" and "rotation".
Note that it is level 3. 
We have it at level 2, we are taught that shoulder rotation and "-" stance in drift and carving turns is a mistake (although I rarely enforce the latter on my students). We explain snowboarding through weight shift almost entirely and it works like a charm - I've had students carving better than 99% of snowboarders on the slopes in just 10 days!

For f**ks sake, it is possible to carve in tailpress across the tops of huge moguls on a steep slope. My jaw dropped when I saw my Italian colleagues doing it for the first time. In fact that's like the only way to really bomb steep moguls, but then again that's far from the only technique you can use on such terrain. 
I wrote this already and I will repeat once again, there are various techniques, each association has multiple techniques, even each trick in the park is a different technique.

The more of them you know the better.

Of course "secret date" is a sign you are not 100% in control. The arm has to be a lot closer to your body. Although that doesn't really affect anything - try eurocarving on your toes with a secret date, gently touching the snow with your elbow, you'll see it's fun.


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## Nivek (Jan 24, 2008)

Sweet thread revival!!!!!


I'm just gonna reiterate what BA said 5 years ago. Style > robots.



Also the best way to learn "proper" technique is camber.


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## Gregory (Jun 18, 2017)

Thank you!

I agree, I'd take a somewhat "deviant" but stylish trick over all the robotic moves we had to learn to demonstrate.
For me it works best to interpret "style > robots" as "style comes after technique".
Whenever you execute a trick with a +- flawless technique, it will look good, then it's easy to add individual style.

As for "rocker vs camber" - Camber is good for working on your carving technique, massive jumps and clean tricks in the park.
Rocker is a good tool to learn drift turns, flat freestyle and jibbing, and speaking about jibbing and freestyle tricks - camber will simply "weed out" all the sloppy and slightly incorrect tricks, while rocker will "swallow" the mistakes sacrificing style.
So yeah if you want to take your carving skills or your cab 270 ins or your 720s to the next level - pick camber. 
Freeride is a whole different world though.


Instead of using terms like "correct/incorrect" I'd suggest this way of looking at it: There are "effective techniques" in "certain situation", there can be many of them; + stance definitely works for hardboards and bombing, "cereal box" is a good way to approach a box or a rail if you want to do a 50-50, short turns with down-unweighting and counter-rotation can be used to save yo ass in a narrow and super-steep powder section, and almost every single freestyle trick has a technique or two of its own that works/looks best.

Also there are "somewhat effective techniques" in "certain situation", for example outdated methodology. I heard French traditional school (ESF) is using some old techniques. It's just a rumor, but then again when I googled ESF that was the first result that I got:






When I look at this guy doing a selfie video it makes me think he's breathing away from the camera to avoid all the whiskey fogging the camera.

The way they are riding is nowhere near to "safe" or "good". Leaving aside horrific quality of this particular video, for the sake of comparsion we can assume some of techniques ESF instructors are using to teach are outdated;
If anyone can protect ESF I'd be happy to fix this text, but as of now this video reminds me of teaching this local pro rider I know who doesn't really have a licence and a clue about teaching.

And finally "Self-taught techniques" in "certain situation", or "too-proud-to-learn".
Boy I love this one.
I've seen guys jumping onto rails on their first day. I've seen "crab techniques" and whatnot.
I found this russian guy boasting to have learned to ride in 1 day, without an instructor. It's a 50 minute video and riding starts at around 25 minutes. He has a hardcore crash at 30:somewhat and the whole "style" (I won't even call it a "technique" since this guy is above technique) of riding is "daring" yet "shitty". It's not worth to waste more than a minute of your time on this video, really.






In comments he was protecting viciously his "right of his own technique" and that it is too expensive to hire an instructor, therefore everyone should be learning by themselves.

Yea I think I'll go learn flying a plane by myself cause all the certification is so damn expensive..

And by the way since 2012 there is a russian youtube channel that is teaching same techniques I do, they've got like 50 videos, millions of views and a very clear path from zero to hero, ABCDEF not AGHZKBD.. I discovered him just a few days ago and I think his videos are a better source of info for learning than Kevin's from snowboardprocamp. But yeah it is in russian so not useful for you guys.

I hope there's less of guys with self-taught techniques on slopes of US and Canada, I guess in every resort culture needs time to grow you know, but yeah it is an issue to some extent more or less everywhere. Especially in countries where snowboarding is dirt-cheap. I think it's because of lack of education or even interest in any kind of progress - just "strap in 10 days a year" and "be the best"

P.S. sorry for this kind of amount of text, I hope you find it interesting/helpful


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## Faded_Butters (Jan 22, 2017)

Great topic/question because I have always been confused on something that is quite similar and on topic to this very question.

Why is it...I see 'bad form/technique' in some PRO snowboarders. And yet...they are PRO's/sponsored and get the fun snowboard life with all the glory/perks/girls/travel. 

While at the same time...I see weekend warriors or 'hardcore' local resort riders that are not even sponsored at all. And yet...they have more or even better proper form/technique over the sponsored PRO's. And aren't even sponsored at all with no glory/perks what so ever. 

So I don't get it...? 

You would think that being a 'PRO SNOWBOARDER' would also mean that you have 'PROPER TECHNIQUE/FORM' to the utmost degree. And yet...I rarely see proper technique/form in some PRO riders and see more proper technique in some average weekend warrior resort rider that is not even sponsored at all and have no snowboarding 'limelight'/recognition/glory.

Am I missing something here...?


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## Faded_Butters (Jan 22, 2017)

Faded_Butters said:


> Great topic/question because I have always been confused on something that is quite similar and on topic to this very question.
> 
> Why is it...I see 'bad form/technique' in some PRO snowboarders. And yet...they are PRO's/sponsored and get the fun snowboard life with all the glory/perks/girls/travel.
> 
> ...


Case in point...

I have been watching a lot of snowboard instructional videos on youtube with this guy/instructor from Canada named 'NEV LAPWOOD'. His channel/company is called 'SnowboardAddiction.com'. 

This guy was one of the first riders I have ever seen that showed me what 'PROPER TECHNIQUE/FORM' should look like and he seems to do it effortlessly...ALL THE TIME. 

And yet...He's not sponsored or considered PRO (at least from what I can see/am aware of). And...he seems to not seek the snowboard PRO limelight/life/glory...even though it seems like he probably could if he wanted to. 

Look him/it up. Anyone agree...? He definitely seems like a PRO to me and also has proper technique and form for days.


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## Gregory (Jun 18, 2017)

The only thing that separates pro riders from everyone else is the fact they are exceptionally good. 
It does happen that someone with completely incorrect technique manages to become a high-level pro. This article is on skiing but nevertheless. 

deadspin.com/how-bode-miller-became-a-self-taught-genius-1683365633

If we had one particular shot to discuss there is a chance this pro you mention is using some secret technique from Shao Lin, however I'm sure we would be able to trace back the technique to its origins 

As of Snowboard Addiction - this is the source of information that was the only reliable source of information in like 2011 when I just started looking into some heavy tricks.
Very good stuff for advanced riders.

The reason why he's not a pro is simple - he chose it this way.
It's not easy being a pro, I can tell you that. Used to be a local pro for a few years, quit that sh*t.

Again, you have to be exceptionally good to be a serious pro these days, and all the other "pros" are just doing advertising for brands for stuff. Also you have to be young and in full health. Injuries are a part of your life. 

With skills of Nev or mine we could be rockstars back in early 00s, but now the sport has progressed so much, seventeen year olds are landing quadruple corks consistently.. Last time I tried a backflip on a trampoline after like 1 year break I landed on my nose. Being a pro is hard work and you don't really ride as much for your own fun as everyone imagines.


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## Nivek (Jan 24, 2008)

Camber teaches you edge control and weight positioning. How to manipulate a sidecut. Those three things are what allow you to do everything else. As far as leaning technique then style... whay about methods? Which method are you gonna teach? East? West? Lynn? Haaken? Whay about the nose press? JP or Jed? If we teach these things we teach a style of them. There is no blank slate. You think Damien Sanders ever had a lesson? Kazu? Cardiel? Kooley? Nima? Huot? Jake O.E.? Basich...? I could go on. The icons of style got there by NOT doing things like everyone else. 

Can lessons help you reach your goal of landing sevens? Hell yes. But your 7 is gonna look cookie cutter and coached. Don't care? Awesome, good on ya. But anyone aspiring for an original style is best learning tricks on there own. Maybe a tip here and there to grey something around that last 90 or to get a better lock on a rail. But learn it on your own. It's gonna be harder, and take more time. But when you do get it, it's yours. 

As far as fundamentals and day 1, I don't mind lessons to get you going. You won't learn enough that first day to impact a personal style. But personal experimentation is key to learning things on your own later. And if you're absolutely stuck, have a friend film you, and watch yourself. You'll figure it out. 

Fourthly, pay your dues riding groomers and trees before you head to the park. If you can't set an edge and actually carve, leave the park alone. You don't belong in there yet.


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## Faded_Butters (Jan 22, 2017)

Nivek said:


> Camber teaches you edge control and weight positioning. How to manipulate a sidecut. Those three things are what allow you to do everything else. As far as leaning technique then style... whay about methods? Which method are you gonna teach? East? West? Lynn? Haaken? Whay about the nose press? JP or Jed? If we teach these things we teach a style of them. There is no blank slate. You think Damien Sanders ever had a lesson? Kazu? Cardiel? Kooley? Nima? Huot? Jake O.E.? Basich...? I could go on. The icons of style got there by NOT doing things like everyone else.
> 
> Can lessons help you reach your goal of landing sevens? Hell yes. But your 7 is gonna look cookie cutter and coached. Don't care? Awesome, good on ya. But anyone aspiring for an original style is best learning tricks on there own. Maybe a tip here and there to grey something around that last 90 or to get a better lock on a rail. But learn it on your own. It's gonna be harder, and take more time. But when you do get it, it's yours.
> 
> ...





Nivek said:


> Sweet thread revival!!!!!
> 
> 
> I'm just gonna reiterate what BA said 5 years ago. Style > robots.
> ...


Amen to that brotha! You definitely hit the nail on the head with CAMBER being the best way to learn proper technique! 

That's why I will never go back to a rockered or flat camber board. Tried it once and hated it and from than on, I knew it was not going to teach me proper technique.

Good old camber is still the KING and will always teach you proper technique and form.


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## Gregory (Jun 18, 2017)

Before teaching method I'd teach a basic melon  From there you're on your own.
Yeah now there's a sh*tload of riders all with the same style, and that sucks. Consequences of competitive snowboarding.

Support your words 100% - personal style is the essence of snowboarding, even if it is different from the "teachings" of any kind.
Did Markus Kleveland invent his own type of snowboarding? Definitely yes. Did he follow any rules? F*ck no. Can he carve in a + position? I'd be surprised if he couldn't. 

The only concern here is time that is needed to learn this or that - not everyone has time to learn the hard way. Snowboarding Addiction did a lot for my riding back in the day, together with certain "robotic" exercises, and I'm just trying to give back the good stuff.

Is it easier to do a nosepress on rocker than on camber? Definitely yes. Will an average nosepress with camber board look better than an average nosepress on rocker? Probably yes. Is a 1 cm nosepress with camber board more stylish than 35 cm nosepress with rocker board? I doubt it.

And as for starting off from scratch - I've done it "the hard way" myself and then I lead 1000s of people through the "easy way". Latter one is so much faster. 
I have some friends, old snowboarders who think the same way - instructor is not necessary. I strongly disagree.

I'm done for today, didn't really sleep last night and pretty sure I will be looking at all this like "WTF was I thinking" tomorrow..


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