# Spins Help



## ruslan. (Dec 15, 2012)

I've been trying to do spins lately, and things havent been going well. I know how to do them, I just can't. I seem to freeze up while in the air, or can't finish the turn. This happens a lot when I try to 180 off boxes and such (even though I can easily just air to fakie on the snow), but I can more or less control the 180. Any tips?


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## Jed (May 11, 2011)

I'm confused, are you saying you have problems finish your 180 rotations or you're having problems rotating past 180 into 360?

It's possible you're counter rotating (swinging your upper body left to get your lower body to turn 180 right or vice-versa) and that could be what's stopping your rotation, but we're going to need a lot more details on exactly what you're doing and what you're trying to do.

Also, video of yourself riding will help a ton, because otherwise a lot of it will just be us guessing at possible problems.


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## Schuber2_S (Feb 14, 2012)

*180*

How To 180 (Regular) - Snowboard Addiction - YouTube

Can't hurt to watch this...it helped me.


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## rasmasyean (Jan 26, 2008)

ruslan. said:


> I've been trying to do spins lately, and things havent been going well. I know how to do them, I just can't. I seem to freeze up while in the air, or can't finish the turn. This happens a lot when I try to 180 off boxes and such (even though I can easily just air to fakie on the snow), but I can more or less control the 180. Any tips?


It sounds like you're not entering the aerial with enough spin. The 2 basic ways to 180 is via rotation and via counter-rotation. You body in the air can't spin by itself. So it needs help.

Rotation - you INITIATE the spin while you're still on the ground. With proper timing, your body will rotate 180 while you're in the air before you land.

Counter-Rotation - you twist your body and arms arround 90 degrees before the air. While in the air, you release the twist 180 in the opposite direction...and your board will rotate opposite of that 180. This applies the Law of Conservation of Momentum. Because your top mass rotates 180 while your bottom mass rotates -180. Actually, that's simplified for understanding, but it really depends on your specific upper body how much you have to rotate to get the bottom half to rotate -180.

When you're good enough, you can mix both techniques while in the air to make it more acurate or perform this trick called a "Shiftie".


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## longboardsrule (Dec 6, 2012)

ruslan. said:


> I've been trying to do spins lately, and things havent been going well. I know how to do them, I just can't. I seem to freeze up while in the air, or can't finish the turn. This happens a lot when I try to 180 off boxes and such (even though I can easily just air to fakie on the snow), but I can more or less control the 180. Any tips?


when moving over a Bump, knob, roller etc... try buttering or reverting the whole 180 around while your board is still on the ground, this eliminates alot of the risk of falling. This will help get your rotation down and put you into a semi-air situation. Once you get this technique nailed, over ther same rollers youve mastered, start bringing your knees up so you board leaves the ground. The transition between on ground 180's and in the air 180's should be pretty smooth.


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## hktrdr (Apr 3, 2012)

rasmasyean said:


> It sounds like you're not entering the aerial with enough spin. The 2 basic ways to 180 is via rotation and via counter-rotation. You body in the air can't spin by itself. So it needs help.
> 
> Rotation - you INITIATE the spin while you're still on the ground. With proper timing, your body will rotate 180 while you're in the air before you land.
> 
> ...


OMG, not the whole counter rotation thing again... :RantExplode:

Can you please stop giving your so-called 'advice' on riding techniques? Most of us here know that your explanations are bullshit, but you could do real harm if some newbies were to follow your 'instructions'


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## Justin (Jun 2, 2010)

hktrdr said:


> OMG, not the whole counter rotation thing again... :RantExplode:
> 
> Can you please stop giving your so-called 'advice' on riding techniques? Most of us here know that your explanations are bullshit, but you could do real harm if some newbies were to follow your 'instructions'


I could be wrong but i think Snowboard Addiction has a whole section in the 180 video that would agree with what he said.


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## hktrdr (Apr 3, 2012)

Justin said:


> I could be wrong but i think Snowboard Addiction has a whole section in the 180 video that would agree with what he said.


You *are* wrong. The SA videos used the old CASI terminology for a while (possibly still do), but the concepts are not what he describes - the SA guys are talking about 'anticipatory counter' where the board 'follows' the upper body around. There is no counter-rotation of the upper body.


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## Jed (May 11, 2011)

hktrdr said:


> You *are* wrong. The SA videos used the old CASI terminology for a while (possibly still do), but the concepts are not what he describes - the SA guys are talking about 'anticipatory counter' where the board 'follows' the upper body around. There is no counter-rotation of the upper body.


Actually counter-rotation is a legit technique for creating rotations 180 degrees or under and I know firsthand that Nev teaches counter-rotation.

In regards to spinning off a jump you typically don't use counter-rotation, but you use counter-rotation all the time for certain 180s off rails, boxes and for shiftys as well.


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## Justin (Jun 2, 2010)

hmmm, not sure i understand what you are saying. His words are "we can spin using counter rotations" and then the video shows that you would start a front 1 with your hands forward, as you jump your lower body switches around and your back shoulder comes forward. He says its good for jumping onto boxes and rails to stop your rotation.

I don't see a difference from what was shown in the video vs what he said. Again i could very easily be wrong but it seems like what he said is what they show.


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## rasmasyean (Jan 26, 2008)

Justin said:


> hmmm, not sure i understand what you are saying. His words are "we can spin using counter rotations" and then the video shows that you would start a front 1 with your hands forward, as you jump your lower body switches around and your back shoulder comes forward. He says its good for jumping onto boxes and rails to stop your rotation.
> 
> I don't see a difference from what was shown in the video vs what he said. Again i could very easily be wrong but it seems like what he said is what they show.


hktrdr is talking about me having an argument with ppl about using "counter-rotation" in mogul runs...like 2 years ago!!! :laugh:

Some ppl were saying you have to use "CASI" or whatever techniques to initiate turns in packed moguls "in theory", but there's no video proof I remember of. And all videos on Youtube I've ever found on rad mogul riding uses couter-rotation. I'm still waiting on that video of perfect turns through packed moguls and still haven't seen one. The closest one iirc is one that Snowolf posted, where the dude like travels all the way across the mogul hill and does the "anticipatory turn" thing. So IN THEORY, you can do this after each mogul if you practice enough or something. Whatever. I'll do it my way and you spend 10 years to perfect your way...if ever. :huh:


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## hktrdr (Apr 3, 2012)

This has been debated ad nauseam. rasmasyean keeps expounding his 'counter-rotation' concept that flies in the face of physics. Wolfie has corrected/called him out on this numerous times (e.g., here, here, and here), but he keeps giving people the same terrible advice.


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## hktrdr (Apr 3, 2012)

Jed said:


> Actually counter-rotation is a legit technique for creating rotations 180 degrees or under and I know firsthand that Nev teaches counter-rotation.
> 
> In regards to spinning off a jump you typically don't use counter-rotation, but you use counter-rotation all the time for certain 180s off rails, boxes and for shiftys as well.


As I said, there is (used to be?) some confusion about terminology - wolfie summed this up pretty well previously.
But this is a terminology issue, not a question of technique - I have all of Nev's videos and he does not advocate what rasmasyean describes (the "release the twist ... in the opposite direction" bullshit).


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## rasmasyean (Jan 26, 2008)

hktrdr said:


> As I said, there is (used to be?) some confusion about terminology - wolfie summed this up pretty well previously.
> But this is a terminology issue, not a question of technique - I have all of Nev's videos and he does not advocate what rasmasyean describes (the "release the twist ... in the opposite direction" bullshit).


Whatever you say. I've "released my twist" on both flatground, box, AND jump to do a 180 before so it works for me and that's all I have to say! :yahoo:


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## hktrdr (Apr 3, 2012)

rasmasyean said:


> Whatever you say. I've "released my twist" on both flatground, box, AND jump to do a 180 before so it works for me and that's all I have to say! :yahoo:


Whatever you say - you have not provided any proof of you (or anybody else for that matter) doing this to back up that claim.
But as wolfie has said many, many times: Feel free to ride in any way that you want. But if you continue to advise people to use non-sense techniques some of us will continue to call you out.


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## Jed (May 11, 2011)

Yep, terminology difference.

Also, I have no idea what rasmasyean is talking about with his 'release the rotation into a counter-rotation' thing. He's definitely wrong in his description. Proper counter rotation (which is what I'm assuming Justin was talking about) is independent to rotation and it's just a shift of your body in the air.

I'm assuming what rasmasyean is trying to describe (since what he describes makes no sense and seems physically impossible) is actually him rotating into part of a 180 then using counter-rotation to shifty the remaining 180 and landing without un-doing the counter-rotation.

Ah the joys of complicated terminology. The funny thing is I've always found is people learn faster without using terminology and relating techniques to movements they can immediately understand and picture.

ie - front boardslide to regular is similar to bowling a ball down the lane with your rear hand

Instructors are the ones who complicate it to describe it to other instructors.


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## hktrdr (Apr 3, 2012)

Jed said:


> Yep, terminology difference.
> 
> Also, I have no idea what rasmasyean is talking about with his 'release the rotation into a counter-rotation' thing. He's definitely wrong in his description. Proper counter rotation (which is what I'm assuming Justin was talking about) is independent to rotation and it's just a shift of your body in the air.
> 
> ...


Yeah, I suspect that is probably more or less what he is doing. But he is terrible at describing it - mostly because he refuses to use standard terminology.

In some sense terminology is just semantics - but it is helpful to stick with consensus/established language when discussing things.
And one of the key aspects of teaching/coaching is describe things accurately, consistently, and in a way that the student can follow and understand. So unless there is a really good reason not to, I think it is worthwhile to follow the AASI terminology.


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## Jed (May 11, 2011)

hktrdr said:


> Yeah, I suspect that is probably more or less what he is doing. But he is terrible at describing it - mostly because he refuses to use standard terminology.
> 
> In some sense terminology is just semantics - but it is helpful to stick with consensus/established language when discussing things.
> And one of the key aspects of teaching/coaching is describe things accurately, consistently, and in a way that the student can follow and understand. So unless there is a really good reason not to, I think it is worthwhile to follow the AASI terminology.


I'm CASI trained so I'm stuck with using the term 'counter-rotation' haha, it's just how I'm used to describing it.

I think terminology is a tricky discussion. It's required to some extent, particularly once you get into advanced techniques, but I'm always intrigued by learning studies that find that throwing out terminology and just finding relatable subject matter shows far bigger increases in learning speed than describing using terminology.

I think the tricky thing is if you wanted to do it that way you'd literally have to custom tailor all your teaching examples and terms for every single student using custom subject matter which isn't really feasible for most snowboard instructors, especially not in a group lesson.


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## rasmasyean (Jan 26, 2008)

Jed said:


> I'm assuming what rasmasyean is trying to describe (since what he describes makes no sense and seems physically impossible) is actually him rotating into part of a 180 then using counter-rotation to shifty the remaining 180 and landing without un-doing the counter-rotation.


No, that's correcting an under-winded 180 initiated by rotation...using last-second counter-rotation. bleh. :dizzy:

Here, you know when you walk? You use counter-rotation to a smaller degree. Your left foot forward, right hand forward, right foot back, left hand back. I don't know what AASI/CASI calls it, but I say your upper vs. lower body is "counter-rotated". 

This is a natural biomechincal sequence to enable efficient use of bipedal locomotion. An analogy to snowboarding is a 180. Except the snowboard is pretty heavy so you have to swing your arms/shoulders MORE! Naturally, depending on your upper vs. lower body mass, everyone requires a different "arm-flail" to result in a complete 180.


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## hktrdr (Apr 3, 2012)

rasmasyean said:


> No, that's correcting an under-winded 180 initiated by rotation...using last-second counter-rotation. bleh. :dizzy:
> 
> Here, you know when you walk? You use counter-rotation to a smaller degree. Your left foot forward, right hand forward, right foot back, left hand back. I don't know what AASI/CASI calls it, but I say your upper vs. lower body is "counter-rotated".
> 
> This is a natural biomechincal sequence to enable efficient use of bipedal locomotion. An analogy to snowboarding is a 180. Except the snowboard is pretty heavy so you have to swing your arms/shoulders MORE! Naturally, depending on your upper vs. lower body mass, everyone requires a different "arm-flail" to result in a complete 180.


10 characters.


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## Donutz (May 12, 2010)

Check out this video:

Snowboard Trick Tip: Buttered Pretzel - YouTube

The guy is using what _he_ calls counter-rotation, and I'm pretty sure it's what ras means by the term. This may or may not be a discussion of terminology, but there is definitely a technique that exists where you prewind your body and then release that prewind to effect (or stop) a rotation.

I'm fairly certain that Nev uses the term too, because that's where I got it from. (and no, I'm too damned lazy to review every video looking for it)


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## aiidoneus (Apr 7, 2011)

Rasm why not just post a video, it will be very clear what is happening then!


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## Donutz (May 12, 2010)

so what I'm hearing is that there is a movement (as in this video) that some people (incorrectly) refer to as counter-rotation. Which means this is an argument about terminology.

Fine with me. I don't give a crap what it's called, I still can't do it well :laugh:


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## Jed (May 11, 2011)

rasmasyean said:


> No, that's correcting an under-winded 180 initiated by rotation...using last-second counter-rotation. bleh. :dizzy:
> 
> Here, you know when you walk? You use counter-rotation to a smaller degree. Your left foot forward, right hand forward, right foot back, left hand back. I don't know what AASI/CASI calls it, but I say your upper vs. lower body is "counter-rotated".
> 
> This is a natural biomechincal sequence to enable efficient use of bipedal locomotion. An analogy to snowboarding is a 180. Except the snowboard is pretty heavy so you have to swing your arms/shoulders MORE! Naturally, depending on your upper vs. lower body mass, everyone requires a different "arm-flail" to result in a complete 180.


So basically you're just talking about pre-winding using odd terms instead of just saying pre-wind. Either that or you're doing a pure counter-rotated 180 off a jump, which is a very odd way to 180 off jumps since it's 100 times easier to just use normal rotation to drift into that smooth, slow 180.

Also, Snowolf, I just checked the current CASI manual and we're still told to use the term 'counter-rotation' in the latest course reference manual


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## rasmasyean (Jan 26, 2008)

Jed said:


> So basically you're just talking about pre-winding using odd terms instead of just saying pre-wind. Either that or you're doing a pure counter-rotated 180 off a jump, which is a very odd way to 180 off jumps since it's 100 times easier to just use normal rotation to drift into that smooth, slow 180.
> 
> Also, Snowolf, I just checked the current CASI manual and we're still told to use the term 'counter-rotation' in the latest course reference manual


Just forget it. I've come to the conclusion that some ppl are just so stuck up about thier own "manuals and terminology" that they can't accept any other way of decribing the sport...or performing in it. It's actually embarasses me, because I'm American as well and this is just typical about Americans as many countries often point out. 

Anyways to answer your question as to "why"...because exactly as you point out, a normal 180 is slow a counter-roatating 180 is fast. The is no way in hell you would be able to do a normal 180 as fast as a counter-rotated one without overspinning and reverting. :thumbsup:


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## rasmasyean (Jan 26, 2008)

Snowolf said:


> Please, enlighten us. What _exactly_ is this so called "spinning a counter rotated 180" and how it is different from a "normal" 180 and why for such a small rotation, why it is even desirable to spin a faster 180 in the first place when everyone who actually does them tries to do them slower and more floaty because the *look and feel better that way*.
> 
> The only possible time a rider might rotate counter to their spin is to stop the spin once in the air. This again is not "counter rotation" it is simply counter and is assuming a static position to slow and stop rotation. I get what you are desperately trying to convey but you are doing it in a very bizarre and over complicated way, using outdated and inaccurate terminology that lends confusion and massive over complication of a simple concept.
> 
> ...


OK, you win, Snowolf standards dictates what "looks and feels better that way". 

And OK, I haven't updated my terms/techniques/lingo/principles since that 2 year old Sierra video that's "outdated". Appologies, that I have not kept up to date with the major advancements in the art since then! Sorry!


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## Jed (May 11, 2011)

Honestly, even though I'm an instructor I don't care about terminology and I don't care if you want to do super fast 180s with whatever technique you want to use.

HOWEVER - please stop telling other people to use your technique because this is NOT how people should do 180s off jumps and it will screw up their spinning technique when they want to go to 360s and beyond.

You should not be giving freestyle advice if you don't have fundamental park basics down, which it's quite clear you don't.

I don't care how good or bad another snowboarder is, as long as they have fun it's fine to me, but stop giving advice if you're not in a position to be giving it. It does more harm than good even if it's coming from the right place.


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## seant46 (Dec 8, 2009)

I agree with Snowolf and Jed, not good advice rasmasyean. I think if you wanted to do a 180 with a 'counter rotation, arm flail' motion it might work out on flat ground or small kickers, but once you start getting a little more air it sounds like an easy way to loose control and eat it.


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## Donutz (May 12, 2010)

Snowolf said:


> Okay, forgetting the terminology for now, you still failed to answer the question. Describe the actual body movements involved in performing a "counter rotating 180". So is the lower body spinning one direction while the upper body spins the opposite direction and exactly what does this bizarre and complex maneuver accomplish for performing such a basic and low energy spin?


There's a move I do when going to/from switch. It happens a lot faster than I describe it, but anyway... Going down the slope, I rotate my upper body to face forward, then when I'm fully pre-wound I whip my upper body back in the opposite direction (unwind) while whipping my board around the other way. So, I'm regular, and going from regular to switch, I'd rotate my upper body CCW until pre-wound, then whip my upper body CW while whipping the board around CCW, and voila I'm in switch. There's no strong edging although I go slightly heelside just before doing the whip, and there's no jump -- just a bit of unweighting to prevent edge catch.

So what's the technical description for this?


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## seant46 (Dec 8, 2009)

So much thinking for a 180


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## aiidoneus (Apr 7, 2011)

Step 1 : watch the snowboard addiction videos
Step 2 : never ever come back to this thread

Case closed.


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## seant46 (Dec 8, 2009)

I'm just grumpy I havent ridden in weeks:blowup:


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## Donutz (May 12, 2010)

Snowolf said:


> I'm having trouble visualizing what you are doing here. A prewinding generally is used in a way that helps you rotate the board in the direction of the unwind. So if I get what you are describing, you prewind, then when you release, you spin the board in the direction you prewind and opposite of the unwind rotation?


Thinking about it, the sequence of events may be slightly different than what I'm thinking (although the result is a frontside 180 on the snow). Try it this way:

I rotate my upper body CCW as an anticipatory prewind. Then I unweight my board slightly to prevent edge catch, and rotate my board CCW as my upper body _stops_ rotating. Result: riding in switch.

If I'd had the sense god gave a fencepost I'd have asked one of the guys to videotape it today on Cypress. We had 3 different people with cameras (ok, I was one of them...). Well maybe on Friday I'll get poutanen to tape one.


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## aiidoneus (Apr 7, 2011)

Snowolf said:


> Was that directed at me?
> 
> I have zero trouble doing and teaching 1's and 3's. I just can't visualize what Donutz is doing.


I wasn't trying to be mean. But for the OP and others learning spins, this thread has got out of hand as you mention later. Time to get back to basics and move on.

Rasm can post a video or stfu


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## hktrdr (Apr 3, 2012)

Donutz said:


> Thinking about it, the sequence of events may be slightly different than what I'm thinking (although the result is a frontside 180 on the snow). Try it this way:
> 
> I rotate my upper body CCW as an anticipatory prewind. Then I unweight my board slightly to prevent edge catch, and rotate my board CCW as my upper body _stops_ rotating. Result: riding in switch.
> 
> If I'd had the sense god gave a fencepost I'd have asked one of the guys to videotape it today on Cypress. We had 3 different people with cameras (ok, I was one of them...). Well maybe on Friday I'll get poutanen to tape one.


That is what I suspected you are doing. As wolfie said, there is no counter-rotation here at all - unless you are using some counter at the end to stop the rotation/prevent over-rotation.
I think where the confusion comes from is that for the second half of the maneuver your lower body is rotating faster than your upper body, so *relative *to the lower body if feels like your upper body is rotating CW. But *in absolute terms (or relative to the mountain)* all parts (upper body, lower body & board) only rotate CCW.

Think about it: By definition between the starting and completing the 180 your upper body, lower body & board all must rotate 180 degrees. The anticipatory rotation accounts for ~90/180 for the upper body, so during the second phase the upper body only has to rotate another 90 degrees, while the lower body and boards still have to complete the entire 180 degree spin.
If any part were to counter-rotate (i.e., spin CW) throughout the maneuver would have the same amount of additional CCW rotation - the total rotation still has to add up to 180 degrees.
An example of the latter would be pre-wind for jumps with more than 1 complete rotation - say, for a 540 CCW you might twist your upper body 90 degrees CW before the jump, so that it subsequently rotates through 630 degrees CCW (it still has to add up to the same total - 540 degrees in this case). However, this is completely unnecessary and pointless for 180s.


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## rasmasyean (Jan 26, 2008)

I just notices that the 3rd post in this thread has a COUNTER-ROTATION 180 video that describes it. Unfortunately, no one including me noticed it was there.

And I thought the OP asked about BEGINNER 180's. Why are you bringing 100 foot 180's and 360's up? Something wrong with doing a 180 on flat ground or 1 inch box first???


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## Jed (May 11, 2011)

rasmasyean said:


> I just notices that the 3rd post in this thread has a COUNTER-ROTATION 180 video that describes it. Unfortunately, no one including me noticed it was there.
> 
> And I thought the OP asked about BEGINNER 180's. Why are you bringing 100 foot 180's and 360's up? Something wrong with doing a 180 on flat ground or 1 inch box first???


You're digging a hole here. You CAN counter-rotate a 180 off a jump, the problem is you don't want to and shouldn't be doing it that way off jumps in 99 out of 100 cases.

I watched the whole video to be sure, but as I suspected, the SA video even says that counter-rotated 180s are used mainly on rails and boxes to stop rotation at 180 and 180 back out.

Also it says counter-rotated 180s are an ADVANCED technique. You should not be doing that right away, particularly off jumps.

If you knew park progression you'd know that you almost always want to use rotation, not counter-rotation to spin a 180 off a jump.

It's very rare, specific circumstances when you'll be using counter-rotation for a 180 on a jump because every single park rider will tell you it's way more stable to use rotation, not counter-rotation for 180s off jumps.

This is exactly why you shouldn't be giving park advice. You don't have the skillset and progression in the park to draw your advice from. You're mainly guessing without knowing how progression works.

On this note, getting tired of people pointing me to SA videos to prove a point that's wrong. Trust me, I know Nev personally and he isn't teaching people to counter-rotate their 180s off jumps when they're starting out in the park.


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## Donutz (May 12, 2010)

hktrdr said:


> I think where the confusion comes from is that for the second half of the maneuver your lower body is rotating faster than your upper body, so *relative *to the lower body if feels like your upper body is rotating CW. But *in absolute terms (or relative to the mountain)* all parts (upper body, lower body & board) only rotate CCW.


I'd have to agree with this.


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## rasmasyean (Jan 26, 2008)

Jed said:


> You're digging a hole here. You CAN counter-rotate a 180 off a jump, the problem is you don't want to and shouldn't be doing it that way off jumps in 99 out of 100 cases.
> 
> I watched the whole video to be sure, but as I suspected, the SA video even says that counter-rotated 180s are used mainly on rails and boxes to stop rotation at 180 and 180 back out.
> 
> ...


OP
_"I've been trying to do spins lately, and things havent been going well. I know how to do them, I just can't. I seem to freeze up *while in the air*, or can't finish the turn. This happens a lot when I try to 180* off boxes and such (even though I can easily just air to fakie on the snow)*, but I can more or less control the 180. Any tips? "_

The "off jump" part is something we just got sidetracted from. But this is what he's asking and I answered him with the 2 ways of doing it. He already can do a 180 so he's not very far from an "advanced 180" whatever that means. 

And btw, I myself learned to couter-rotate 180's on flat ground WAY before rotating. Why may you ask would I use this "ADVANCED 180" first? Because it was FAST and didn't require a lot of air time AND, like you empasize, I can STOP my 180 without reverting. *I* felt the regular rotated 180 required a bit of timing and even energy to pop when learning and it was really hard for me to get it all the way arround...and when I did, I tend to "spin out" a lot and maybe catch an edge while I was at it. ESPECIALLY when I was going fast or whatever, I never used a rotated 180. At least not in the beginning until I got better with the timing.

"Progression" is not always set in stone. It depends a lot on the person.


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## Jed (May 11, 2011)

rasmasyean said:


> OP
> _"I've been trying to do spins lately, and things havent been going well. I know how to do them, I just can't. I seem to freeze up *while in the air*, or can't finish the turn. This happens a lot when I try to 180* off boxes and such (even though I can easily just air to fakie on the snow)*, but I can more or less control the 180. Any tips? "_
> 
> The "off jump" part is something we just got sidetracted from. But this is what he's asking and I answered him with the 2 ways of doing it. He already can do a 180 so he's not very far from an "advanced 180" whatever that means.
> ...


I swear you have to be trolling right now.

He's trying to 180 off a box, not 180 onto and off a box. In his case he wants to be using rotation not counter-rotation.

We're saying it's an advanced technique because when people like you learn counter-rotation as their method for doing 180s, it messes up their riding and they start using the wrong rotations for the wrong uses, which is exactly what you're doing now.

Just because you decided to learn it the wrong way and ruin your technique because you gave up learning them the proper way (that scales easily into 360s and beyond) doesn't mean you should be advising people to follow in your footsteps.

FYI, you say progression isn't set in stone, but you haven't progressed. Show me a video of your riding and how your amazing learning method of counter-rotated 180s (without learning proper rotation first) has easily let you progress into your super smooth 360s and 540s and I'll believe you.

When every single park rider with experience explains that spins should be learnt a certain way to make progression easy and you come in with a lack of experience in park and say "Nope, I'm right because I do it this way" it makes you look ridiculous.


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## rasmasyean (Jan 26, 2008)

Snowolf said:


> Jed, I am calling bullshit on this poser even doing a 180 of any kind. Here is his stellar video of his snowboarding prowess:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's a friend of mine actually. And it's a little kid, if you can't tell.


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## Jed (May 11, 2011)

I'm still calling bs on your so called 'progression'. 

No experienced park rider would misunderstand why floaty, slow 180s feel better than fast 180s. Not a single one.

The fact is if you were experienced in park we wouldn't be having this conversation because you'd know how learning correct use of spin rotation easily lends itself into taking your 180s into 360 and beyond.


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## flatcoke (Nov 21, 2012)

I'm a 2nd season snowboarder just starting out with parks and stumbled upon this post while searching "180 snowboard". Aren't there some heated discussions above =). I'll share some of my experiences below. Forgive me if my English is not perfect.

I'm trying to nail down my 180s, I can already do it in all four direction across the hill on flat, and I started by doing it "counter-rotating". In my opinion this idea exists, the same way a cat can land on its fours when released up-side-down. If you watch a cat in slow-mo, its torso rotates clockwise and arms counter-clockwise to allow paws touch floor first. Then as soon as it has traction, torso follows up and your cat is now in its normal position.

However, you can only twist so much before you become a wringing towel, therefore it's not an ideal way to do spins off jumps. Your cat can land on its feet when up-side-down, but it's the maximum it can do (180s). It certainly can't do a 540 and land on its paws this way; too much rotation will probably crush its spine.

Now talking about my first-hand experience, I started in the counter-rotating way because it seems more comfortable to a newbie. For front 180s, instead of pre-winding and looking away from the direction of travel, you wind the other way, looking AT the direction of travel, and then jump in the air, twist your body and land it. Unfortunately the correct way to do stuff is often counter intuitive. For reasons mentioned above, you can do it for 180s, but it's not a good way to progress into 3s and 5s and is not as stable as the other way.

*In simple words:* Counter-rotating exists, like the back and forth rotating you would do standing on a office chair. However you can't use it for spins more than 180 just as you can't do it on an office chair; therefore it's not ideal for spinning off a jump.

As for me, I just switched from counter-rotating to rotating; it feels so much better and more stable for the landing. However, I DO still keep my counter-rotations for on and off boxes and rails.


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