# Are there any guidelines on binding settings for little kids?



## Riley212

put her in what looks lick a good athletic stance and measure how wide the feet are:dunno: probably shoulder witdth and the angles you said. they wont know the difference anyways.


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## Toecutter

Riley212 said:


> put her in what looks lick a good athletic stance and measure how wide the feet are:dunno: probably shoulder witdth and the angles you said. they wont know the difference anyways.


That's pretty much how I did it. I had her jump off the ottoman onto the floor a bunch of times and went with where her feet landed.


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## Matt166

Actually the angle of that back binding can make big difference on toe turns. I always set kids up with the back binding a little less, and even less when they are really young - for 7 up I normally give them something like 15 -9 or -6. Some people will say a slightly positive angle on the back foot of really small kids (4,5 y/o) helps out, the verdict is out on that one for me, I played around with it for a while and haven't really noticed much difference. 

As far as stance width goes, I cant really give you any advice on that one, I just set it up to what looks right.


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## Toecutter

I swear I read on this forum last year someone advising setting kids' angles at 0/0. IIRC she was an instructor who cited something about kids' biomechanics, but I couldn't find that thread.

I think she said that mimicking an adult position was not optimum because although the stance might look "right" to us, kids' lower extremities are different enough that our "right" and their "right" are different.


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## Matt166

Snowolf said:


> Yeah, that is really all you can do at this age. try to set them close to how they normally just stand. I like to set them duck with even angles because at this age, kids tend to move their entire body as a unit. They don`t have a whole lot of upper and lower body separation yet so in order to keep them aligned well with their board, you need to use a symmetrical stance. Having anything other than this can cause rotation issues when they try to control their board.


I disagree, I think you would be hard pushed to find a little girl that like to ride stacked up on her board. Most kids, especially girls, like to ride a little open, having less of an angle on the back binding helps them out. They don't have the strength to twist the board, and mostly rely on rotational movements of the body to turn. Most kids will ride with a good deal of separation, and not in the right way, but it is what it is.


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## Toecutter

Matt166 said:


> I disagree, I think you would be hard pushed to find a little girl that like to ride stacked up on her board. Most kids, especially girls, like to ride a little open, having less of an angle on the back binding helps them out. They don't have the strength to twist the board, and mostly rely on rotational movements of the body to turn. Most kids will ride with a good deal of separation, and not in the right way, but it is what it is.


What does "ride stacked up" mean? Straight and tall?


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## Matt166

Toecutter said:


> What does "ride stacked up" mean? Straight and tall?



Shoulders and hips in line with the board. It has nothing to do with the amount of flexion.


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## Toecutter

Matt166 said:


> Shoulders and hips in line with the board. It has nothing to do with the amount of flexion.


I see. "A little open" therefore means pointed forward a bit, correct? That's how I learned, then gradually migrated to stacked.

I set up my daughter's bindings duck in hopes that she becomes comfortable riding switch right from the start, but do you think it's better to ride a little open until she gets things down a bit, then worry about learning to go switch later?


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## Matt166

Toecutter said:


> I see. "A little open" therefore means pointed forward a bit, correct? That's how I learned, then gradually migrated to stacked.
> 
> I set up my daughter's bindings duck in hopes that she becomes comfortable riding switch right from the start, but do you think it's better to ride a little open until she gets things down a bit, then worry about learning to go switch later?


Yeah thats right, its mainly the shoulders that stay open, when shes on toe side. Honestly I think its because when kids learn they dont want to turn their backs to the downhill. You can spend your whole time trying to correct it, and they will have a horrible time and end up hating you, or you can roll with it and get them doing other fun stuff that encourages good posture. Like what happened with you, form can be improved when she actually feels like it and is a little more comfortable on her board.

With regards to switch, I would encourage it as soon as possible. As long as you dont go over crazy with those angles, low level switch riding shouldn't be too difficult. Kids love tricks, if she can do a little switch then flatground 180's etc are just around the corner.


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## wrathfuldeity

Matt166 said:


> With regards to switch, I would encourage it as soon as possible. As long as you dont go over crazy with those angles, low level switch riding shouldn't be too difficult. Kids love tricks, if she can do a little switch then flatground 180's etc are just around the corner.


I would say just get her to ride both ways...my daughter at age 7...we all including the instructor, thought she was regular. She learned to ride both ways but was primairly regular for the first 2 years but was especially good on her toeside (duh). But then she found out that with a minor adjustment in binding angles that she was really naturally goofy and started riding goofy but didn't have any trouble riding switch.


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## Toecutter

wrathfuldeity said:


> I would say just get her to ride both ways...my daughter at age 7...we all including the instructor, thought she was regular. She learned to ride both ways but was primairly regular for the first 2 years but was especially good on her toeside (duh). But then she found out that with a minor adjustment in binding angles that she was really naturally goofy and started riding goofy but didn't have any trouble riding switch.


Do you recall at what angles you set her bindings?


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## Toecutter

Matt166 said:


> Yeah thats right, its mainly the shoulders that stay open, when shes on toe side. Honestly I think its because when kids learn they dont want to turn their backs to the downhill. You can spend your whole time trying to correct it, and they will have a horrible time and end up hating you, or you can roll with it and get them doing other fun stuff that encourages good posture. Like what happened with you, form can be improved when she actually feels like it and is a little more comfortable on her board.
> 
> With regards to switch, I would encourage it as soon as possible. As long as you dont go over crazy with those angles, low level switch riding shouldn't be too difficult. Kids love tricks, if she can do a little switch then flatground 180's etc are just around the corner.


That all sounds quite reasonable. May I ask what your background is with teaching kids?


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## wrathfuldeity

Toecutter said:


> Do you recall at what angles you set her bindings?


Really don't remember, was 10 years ago, but iirc it was slight duck, maybe +6 and -3. Also she has always rode a bit open shouldered and almost flat based. However now she just skis and maybe rides 1-2 days out of a 60+ season.


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## Matt166

I can see how some of your logic is very true for adults, but I am still not in agreement about it for kids, here is my reasoning.




Snowolf said:


> Riding "open" or in a countered stance is a tough habit to break once established. No matter how difficult it might be at first to get the kid over a fear of turning their back to the hill, I find it is easier to deal with it early on before they build upon habits.
> You know all about internal and external motivation right, well I have found that kids are not really ever internally motivated to ride by the book.
> 
> The best way to deal with this countered stance and fear of turning their back to the mountain is to choose more appropriate terrain for progression. Pick slopes with a gradient gentle enough for them to make much shallower, open ended S turns instead of closed C turns if this fear becomes evident. By doing this, they never really get more than about 45 degrees off of the fall line so there is no real feeling of turning their backs to the hill. It will will always feel like turning to the side instead. I have found this to be highly successful for dealing with this fear whether a kid or an adult.
> 
> I feel if a kid progresses without closing turns off, if you take them on anything steeper they are never going to be able to control their speed, which would be a way bigger issue to me than riding in complete alignment. AASI have changed their view on stances in the last couple of years, shoulders are no longer part of the reference alignment that talks about being stacked up, so long as your hips align
> 
> As a teacher, I would rather select more suitable terrain than allow bad habits to develop that will become a difficult obstacle to overcome to achieve advanced levels of riding. As they ride with these open ended turns, they gain confidence through repeated success and then when you advanced to more challenging terrain, they do not have as much of a problem with this fear. I find it a faster progression than allowing bad habits that then have to be undone later.
> 
> In fairness wolf, open ended turns are a bad habit if they are the only one you know how to do - how many times have you taught lower level adults that have complained about not being able to slow down on their toe edge? I have seen kids that I tried for days and days to correct alignment when they were 6 and 7, years later the same kids are stacked up.


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## Matt166

I hear you wolf, differences of opinions are what keep me interested in teaching, I always like to hear what other people have to say. 

One things for sure, co is in rough shape right now.


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## Snowrat

I'm far from an expert here, so I welcome any criticism, but here's what worked for me: I have identical twin girls that I started on snowboards when they were 5 (they're almost 8 now). One is predominantly left handed, one righty, but they switch often (I know that has nothing to do with regular or goofy, but being identical twins, I thought it was a little telling about their general differences).I got into "play boxing" matches with them to get an idea of where their dominant athletic stance and forward foot was, but set them up evenly for switch, figuring they probably hadn't settled on a final preference yet (like with their hands). I padded them up well (elbow pads, helmets and hockey pants). Feeling no pain, they never developed a fear of slamming. (and it was kinda fun watching them curl up like hedge hogs and roll ouf of a slam) getting them to go toe side and look up hill was really a matter of mental preference, not fear, so I'd play games with them staying uphill and creating incentive for them to complete their turns and look up at me. This is their third full season (3+ times a week) and they're doing a decent "completed turns slalom" on gentle blue runs sort of naturally carving or dynamic skidding as the terrain and speed dictates. About three weeks ago they found a little natural hit, caught "huge" air (they're 3 feet tall, so 2 feet of air is "huge") and now they're incecently begging me to take them to the park. I've created monsters! But back to the original point... up until around 10, most kids wont have settled into a front foot preference, so playing a game like boxing (and the other poster's suggestion of jumping off the ottoman) to get an idea of their natural stance width and angle, and setting them up for switch, is the best bet in my opinion.


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