# Mid-layers vs hoodies vs tees. Breathable?



## SAVETHISNOOB (Feb 29, 2012)

Hey guys.
Got myself a bonfire barrel shell jacket with 30/15k ratings.
Only thing is theres not insulation at all and I anticipate a cold one in the alpes. The shell normally comes with the inner jacket but as I got on ebay, no such luck.

The jacket that's designed to go with it:
Bonfire Hudson Mid-Layer Jacket - The Snowboard Shop

If I layered with a riding/DWR hoody would the breathability suffer? Guessing it would get more weighty.I can't get the above jacket in my size so can't go down that route.

What do people wear?
Should I be looking for primaloft of some nature?

My baselayers are various analog/burton cotton baselayers.

Thanks :facepalm3:


----------



## ridinbend (Aug 2, 2012)

Never cotton, nothing cotton. It gets wet and stays wet. There are plenty of threads on layers and recommendations. Merino wool should be a priority or synthetic if wool is too spendy. Layer up dude.


----------



## Bamfboardman (Dec 11, 2012)

I wear a Dakine Sloppy Joe Hoodie day to day and a North face Thermoball hoodie when its below 0. Wearing a mid layer will usually sacrifice some breathability but I sweat a lot and I'm fine with the sloppy joe on. If I get to hot I just open my vents on the lifts.


----------



## radiomuse210 (Sep 5, 2014)

I have a jacket with a removable liner which is awesome. If it's too warm for the liner, I take it out but put a Volcom tech hoodie underneath the jacket shell. I don't feel that it affects breathability for me.


----------



## SnowDragon (Apr 23, 2012)

ridinbend said:


> Never cotton, nothing cotton. It gets wet and stays wet. There are plenty of threads on layers and recommendations. Merino wool should be a priority or synthetic if wool is too spendy. Layer up dude.


The best advice you will get.
To reinforce: NO COTTON!
Merino or polyester. Ideally a blend of both.
Layer as necessary.


----------



## Triple8Sol (Nov 24, 2008)

Cotton kills. Never cotton, not even a little bit. I prefer poly with a small % spandex, but merino wool is the other good option.


----------



## vajohn (Jan 12, 2014)

Cotton is the best thing if you want to be absolutely miserable, especially if there is any chance you will sweat at all. I like merino blend base layers because they are pretty cheap and work very well in my experience. Pure merino is awesome if you can afford it. I usually get by with just base layers and a vest unless it is really cold. Sometimes I double up the base layers and wear a vest. 

I have various mid layers depending on conditions and whether there is any chance I will be hiking at all. I like my lightweight 686 riding vest when it is not too cold. I occasionally wear Pendleton wool shirts. Sometimes fleece, but not really the best thing if you are going to do anything strenuous and get all sweaty. I also have an old school Gerry down vest made in CO, which is pretty sweet.


----------



## SAVETHISNOOB (Feb 29, 2012)

vajohn said:


> Cotton is the best thing if you want to be absolutely miserable, especially if there is any chance you will sweat at all. I like merino blend base layers because they are pretty cheap and work very well in my experience. Pure merino is awesome if you can afford it. I usually get by with just base layers and a vest unless it is really cold. Sometimes I double up the base layers and wear a vest.
> 
> I have various mid layers depending on conditions and whether there is any chance I will be hiking at all. I like my lightweight 686 riding vest when it is not too cold. I occasionally wear Pendleton wool shirts. Sometimes fleece, but not really the best thing if you are going to do anything strenuous and get all sweaty. I also have an old school Gerry down vest made in CO, which is pretty sweet.


Hey. Thanks everyone
Unfortunately wool doesn't agree with me and gives me hives/rash. However polyester, spandex etc are fine.
My base layers aren't cotton they're burton/analog technical underwear layers so think they're a poly/spandex blend sort of thing.

Just wondering what to wear over the top of these but will check out your suggestions above. Think i'll need something heavy duty for the alpes this January.

Hoodies/DWR hoodies not good? Feel they may be bulky


----------



## SAVETHISNOOB (Feb 29, 2012)

Things like the northwave thermoball mentioned probably sound like what i'm after. You guys all just wear these merino wool/poly layers and then a shell and don't get cold?

I don't like feeling bulky/claustrophobic but think i'll be cold in a shell with no insulation... hence why I was looking at primaloft etc.


----------



## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

SAVETHISNOOB said:


> Hey. Thanks everyone
> Unfortunately wool doesn't agree with me and gives me hives/rash. However polyester, spandex etc are fine.
> My base layers aren't cotton they're burton/analog technical underwear layers so think they're a poly/spandex blend sort of thing.
> 
> ...


Your insulating layers are where you can save a good chunk of coin. Get good base layers and good outerwear, but honestly, most synthetic fleece type garments are more or less equal. No need to necessarily buy name brand mid-layers. Just make sure they're cotton free. I'd stay away from DWR for your mid-layers. Just no point in it. With good outerwear, it's unnecessary and it'll just decrease breathability.


----------



## ridinbend (Aug 2, 2012)

SAVETHISNOOB said:


> Things like the northwave thermoball mentioned probably sound like what i'm after. You guys all just wear these merino wool/poly layers and then a shell and don't get cold?
> 
> I don't like feeling bulky/claustrophobic but think i'll be cold in a shell with no insulation... hence why I was looking at primaloft etc.


If you wear a merino/synthetic base layer, get a mid layer like (patagonia r1/r2) to go over the base layer, (which will also draw any moisture out of the base layer) and then the shell, you won't be cold. If you are I'll send you my own jacket.


----------



## ShredLife (Feb 6, 2010)

SAVETHISNOOB said:


> Things like the _north*face* thermobal_l mentioned probably sound like what i'm after. You guys all just wear these merino wool/poly layers and then a shell and don't get cold?
> 
> I don't like feeling bulky/claustrophobic but think i'll be cold in a shell with no insulation... hence why I was looking at primaloft etc.


the vest is a better bet imo. more versatile under a shell.

The North Face ThermoBall Remix Vest - Men's


----------



## Bamfboardman (Dec 11, 2012)

ShredLife said:


> the vest is a better bet imo. more versatile under a shell.
> 
> The North Face ThermoBall Remix Vest - Men's


I feel like buying a vest is completely pointless because you'll look like a fucking idiot just wearing the vest. The great thing about the thermal hoodie is I can wear it wherever I want.


----------



## stickz (Feb 6, 2013)

I have those bibs from last year, they are amazing. More waterproof than gore-Tex pro. I didn't know they still made this model. The new model is called the Nelson. Which I was going to buy next month. For a underlayer try and find a quick drying thin polyester with fleece lining sweatshirt. I found mine last yr at Costco for $15. Works great under my burton ak shell. I normally wear a not super tight spandex t shirt under the sweatshirt.


----------



## Justin (Jun 2, 2010)

Do you know what happens when you get cotton wet at the ski resort? You go in for 10 min and warm up LOL, its not the backcountry and you are not going to die of hypothermia at a resort. If you want to wear a fancy mid layer go for it but its really not a huge deal when riding inbounds. I wear a good baselayer (wool) but i just wear any sweatshirt. If you get snow down your pants you will be wet, materials are not magic.

Disclaimer: i understand that materials can make a difference but i still have fun in my cotton shirt, its not serious buziness.


----------



## 16gkid (Dec 5, 2012)

Anybody else here run hot besides me? i pretty much rock a cold compression shirt and a dc shell jacket unless it goes below zero degrees.


----------



## aggie05 (Nov 12, 2014)

16gkid said:


> Anybody else here run hot besides me? i pretty much rock a cold compression shirt and a dc shell jacket unless it goes below zero degrees.


I do too. A lot of times its just a t-shirt under my shell jacket. If I do wear my merino base layers, I almost always have the vents wide open to keep from baking.


----------



## neni (Dec 24, 2012)

Justin said:


> Do you know what happens when you get cotton wet at the ski resort? You go in for 10 min and warm up LOL, its not the backcountry and you are not going to die of hypothermia at a resort.


Well... guess it depends a bit on your resort, type and length of lifts and how you ride. This may work if you mostly cruise or on hills with short runs? But if you ride actively on a mid or long run (2kft up to 7kft) you _do_ sweat. And then sit on an exposed chair lift for 20min in cold wind gusts in freezing temps, in soaking wet cotton? Brrrrrr... good luck, hope you've a good immune system .

No cotton for me


----------



## chomps1211 (Mar 30, 2011)

neni said:


> Well... guess it depends a bit on your resort, type and length of lifts and how you ride. This may work if you mostly cruise or on hills with short runs? But if you ride actively on a mid or long run (2kft up to 7kft) you _do_ sweat. And then sit on an exposed chair lift for 20min in cold wind gusts in freezing temps, in soaking wet cotton? Brrrrrr... good luck, hope you've a good immune system .
> 
> No cotton for me


^^THIS^^

A good base layer is essential imo!


----------



## vajohn (Jan 12, 2014)

Cotton for any winter time activity is just foolish. I have never worn any cotton riding since I was young and didn't know any better. I can't remember taking a break just to go inside and warm up. I really don't see much point in dwr hoodie as a mid layer. I rarely ever wear hoodies under my shells at all. 

And I do like vests under my shell sometimes. I don't care what it looks like...they keep your core warm without adding too much bulk. Also agree that cheap fleece is basically as good as the expensive name brand stuff. Same is probably true for those thin down vests and jackets...I have seen some pretty cheap before and thought about getting one to try. Actually saw some at costco when I was picking up some more of their cheap merino blend base layers. 

Good outerwear is what you need to spend the money on. All my shells are 2l or 3l goretex, but there are shells made out of other stuff that are probably just as good.


----------



## ridinbend (Aug 2, 2012)

Not to mention your wet cotton shirt will zap the energy out of you as your body cools off before you can actually heat up and dry. Cotton doesn't just dry in ten minutes when your inside btw.


----------



## stickz (Feb 6, 2013)

Those merino wool blend base layers at Costco are great. I like the hoodie because it's the thinnest lighest mid layer I've found. I can go weeks without going into the lodge, and with all this technology out there I see no reason to have to "warm up" I'm almost always warm, and other than my hands I never get wet.


----------



## ShredLife (Feb 6, 2010)

Justin said:


> Do you know what happens when you get cotton wet at the ski resort? You go in for 10 min and warm up LOL, its not the backcountry and you are not going to die of hypothermia at a resort. If you want to wear a fancy mid layer go for it but its really not a huge deal when riding inbounds. I wear a good baselayer (wool) but i just wear any sweatshirt. If you get snow down your pants you will be wet, materials are not magic.
> 
> Disclaimer: i understand that materials can make a difference but i still have fun in my cotton shirt, its not serious buziness.


this post is retarded.


----------



## stickz (Feb 6, 2013)

shredlife said:


> justin said:
> 
> 
> > do you know what happens when you get cotton wet at the ski resort? You go in for 10 min and warm up lol, its not the backcountry and you are not going to die of hypothermia at a resort. If you want to wear a fancy mid layer go for it but its really not a huge deal when riding inbounds. I wear a good baselayer (wool) but i just wear any sweatshirt. If you get snow down your pants you will be wet, materials are not magic.
> ...


^^^lol^^^^


----------



## Justin (Jun 2, 2010)

neni said:


> Well... guess it depends a bit on your resort, type and length of lifts and how you ride. This may work if you mostly cruise or on hills with short runs? But if you ride actively on a mid or long run (2kft up to 7kft) you _do_ sweat. And then sit on an exposed chair lift for 20min in cold wind gusts in freezing temps, in soaking wet cotton? Brrrrrr... good luck, hope you've a good immune system .
> 
> No cotton for me


Well I mostly ride the Canadian Rockies and it does get pretty cold here although I haven't ridden the alps so I really don't know what you go through. I found that when i wear a fancy midlayers like fleece and down vests, ect that I really don't feel much different then when I wear whatever sweatshirt I grab out of my closet. 

If i head out into the backcountry then yes, I start to put effort into what my different layers will be but I think a lot of people put a little bit to much emphasis on super tech clothing when riding a couple of feet from a chair lift and make huge statements like "cotton kills" and "never wear cotton" like its a death sentence if your midlayer is made of cotton, but to each their own. Besides no one should take someone who makes retarded statements seriously anyway.


----------



## Bamfboardman (Dec 11, 2012)

Justin said:


> Well I mostly ride the Canadian Rockies and it does get pretty cold here although I haven't ridden the alps so I really don't know what you go through. I found that when i wear a fancy midlayers like fleece and down vests, ect that I really don't feel much different then when I wear whatever sweatshirt I grab out of my closet.
> 
> If i head out into the backcountry then yes, I start to put effort into what my different layers will be but I think a lot of people put a little bit to much emphasis on super tech clothing when riding a couple of feet from a chair lift and make huge statements like "cotton kills" and "never wear cotton" like its a death sentence if your midlayer is made of cotton, but to each their own. Besides no one should take someone who makes retarded statements seriously anyway.


Cotton as a base layer is idiocy. Cotton as a mid layer is still pretty stupid just less stupid. Cotton soaks up moisture like a sponge and will freeze. Fleece is hydrophobic. In case you aren't familiar with the term that means it can't get wet..... for the most part. If you like wearing a soaking we frozen hoodie on powder days go ahead. Just don't recommend other people to do the same.


----------



## Justin (Jun 2, 2010)

Bamfboardman said:


> Cotton as a base layer is idiocy. Cotton as a mid layer is still pretty stupid just less stupid. Cotton soaks up moisture like a sponge and will freeze. Fleece is hydrophobic. In case you aren't familiar with the term that means it can't get wet..... for the most part. If you like wearing a soaking we frozen hoodie on powder days go ahead. Just don't recommend other people to do the same.


I never recommended a cotton base layer. In fact I said i rode with a wool one, sometimes I even use a coconna one :eyetwitch2: My hoodie doesn't get soaked and frozen cause its under mah shell. Your shell will keep in most of the moisture if you get the inside of the shell wet cause if it keeps water out it must also keep water in and while it might do a great job of getting ride of a little bit of sweat vapor its not going to dump all moisture and certainly not going to get rid of a bunch of snow that has been turned into water by your body heat.

For instance when I ride my sled like an idiot and get stuck and spend copious amounts of time digging it out and sweat a lot the inside of my shell is covered with frozen sweat. So even if your fleece won't soak up much sweat (it will still take some, i know this because when i wash my fleece it comes out wet, granted not nearly as much as cotton) the moisture will still be inside your jacket and it will be wet and humid inside.

Are other materials better then cotton, YES, I acknowledge this. If snow gets down my pants and i am wearing a fancy base layer i still am wet and therefore can get cold because wet cloths take heat away faster. It will dry much faster than cotton and even keep me warmer than cotton and so I wear a decent base layer. However for a mid layer it is mostly unimportant when dealing with snowboarding at a resort.

anyway enough internet fighting for me, I leave this post with a question, if "eat" sounds the way it does then why do we spell "sweet" the way we do when it should really be spelled "sweat" or should we spell "eat" as "eet"?

Also, (last thing i swear) Neni, I am constantly amazed with how you never come across as condensing when its so easy to read things that way on the interwebz. You must be a great communicator.


----------



## chomps1211 (Mar 30, 2011)

Justin said:


> ….Also, (last thing i swear) Neni, I am constantly amazed with how you never come across as condensing when its so easy to read things that way on the interwebz. You must be a great communicator.


Well, I keep saying it,.. Neni's a _real_ sweetheart! (_…sweat_heart by your logic.) :laugh:

Now,.. How do you think she got so sweet,..?? She has been *condensing* all that sweetness! :rofl3: 




(….I hope that didn't come across as *condescending!)*  :lol: :rofl2:


----------



## Justin (Jun 2, 2010)

lol i see what you did there


----------



## Tarzanman (Dec 20, 2008)

Justin said:


> Do you know what happens when you get cotton wet at the ski resort? You go in for 10 min and warm up LOL, its not the backcountry and you are not going to die of hypothermia at a resort. If you want to wear a fancy mid layer go for it but its really not a huge deal when riding inbounds. I wear a good baselayer (wool) but i just wear any sweatshirt. If you get snow down your pants you will be wet, materials are not magic.
> 
> Disclaimer: i understand that materials can make a difference but i still have fun in my cotton shirt, its not serious buziness.


I would ignore this post. Yes, you can get away with cotton on days that aren't super freezing cold if you:
1. aren't exerting yourself very much
2. are conscientious about not getting too warm/hot under your shell
3. don't fall or ride on the type of snow that will get you soaked if you fall

However,if your cotton shirt gets wet with sweat or snow, then be prepared to be uncomfortable (at best) the rest of the entire day. As many other people have already pointed out, you might be able to stay warm on the slopes, but that chair lift ride to the top is a [email protected]#$f234r when its windy out.

Park rats don't really have to worry about any of the above... but what rider wants to spend 30 minutes in the lodge heating up on a day with short lift lines or fresh snow?


----------



## aiidoneus (Apr 7, 2011)

ridinbend said:


> Never cotton, nothing cotton. It gets wet and stays wet. There are plenty of threads on layers and recommendations. Merino wool should be a priority or synthetic if wool is too spendy. Layer up dude.





GreyDragon said:


> The best advice you will get.
> To reinforce: NO COTTON!
> Merino or polyester. Ideally a blend of both.
> Layer as necessary.


For most people this is solid advice and should be followed. What I am about to say is not advice. It isn't something I recommend people do.

I wear cotton, frequently. Yes I said it. Why would I do such a crazy thing? I run incredible hot. I have slept in -20C with my sleeping bag wide open in nothing but my underwear. I have been out splitboarding in -38C with only a T-Shirt on while climbing and in the trees.

I own tons of different options, different Shells. Some all goretex, some like the Arc'teryx Lithic Comp that are a soft/hard shell combo. I have smart wool 195's, 250s, Ice Breakers, synthetics. Lots of different mid layers, down (850 fill), synthetic, fleeces. 

For me, when I am exerting even mild amounts of effort, my body gets really warm. The only base layer were I don't sweat is cotton. You are likely going to say well, sure .. but when you stop you will need to layer up. Sometimes, sure. Most of the time? nope.

With all of that said. I never leave home without a non-cotton backup. It is just that I rarely wear it. 

There is of course an exception. I have tried some summer hiking style synthetics that breath really well. However, they tend to irritate my nipples :-(.

Anyway, like I said; Not recommending people wear cotton. Just pointing out I am some freak of nature.

EDIT: Some interesting tests of different base layer materials. Good explanation of why cotton is not ideal.


----------



## BoardWalk (Mar 22, 2011)

aiidoneus said:


> I have slept in -20C with my sleeping bag wide open in nothing but my underwear.



Whoa....no need for visuals here...


----------



## neni (Dec 24, 2012)

aiidoneus said:


> I have slept in -20C with my sleeping bag wide open in nothing but my underwear.
> 
> ...
> Anyway, like I said; Not recommending people wear cotton. Just pointing out I am some freak of nature.


Lucky you! I admit, I'm jealous. I'm warm as long as I move. The instant I don't move? I'm cold. Sleeping? My bedroom has 24°C, I've a thick down cover + sheep skin underneath and I'm _still_ cold in the morning :dry:. Thus, cotton is a killer for _me_, I just can't store enough heat while not moving (transition after hiking, lift lines, sitting in après).


----------



## aiidoneus (Apr 7, 2011)

neni said:


> Lucky you! I admit, I'm jealous. I'm warm as long as I move. The instant I don't move? I'm cold. Sleeping? My bedroom has 24°C, I've a thick down cover + sheep skin underneath and I'm _still_ cold in the morning :dry:. Thus, cotton is a killer for _me_, I just can't store enough heat while not moving (transition after hiking, lift lines, sitting in après).


It is definitely a struggle with the girlfriend at home. I keep the house at 16C when she isn't around. She compromises at 21C.


----------



## cookiedog (Mar 3, 2014)

Justin said:


> Do you know what happens when you get cotton wet at the ski resort?.


 But do you know that the bird is the word?


----------



## BoardWalk (Mar 22, 2011)

cookiedog said:


> But do you know that the bird is the word?


Hasn't everybody heard?


----------



## aiidoneus (Apr 7, 2011)

BoardWalk said:


> Hasn't everybody heard?


Heard what?


----------



## ShredLife (Feb 6, 2010)




----------



## Aphraidknot (Mar 4, 2013)

I wear a regular hoodie all the time...It really depends on where you board at...I'd say 75% of the season in So Cal is Blue Bird and in the 40's-50's. Therefore almost 100% of time you go, its sun tan lotion weather. If you are riding groomers and park all day, hoodies are not a problem...


----------



## SAVETHISNOOB (Feb 29, 2012)

So the general consensus appears to be a thin baselayer, a fleecy midlayer and a shell?

Things like the thermoball northwave jacket are overkill/bulky?

I'm keep to maintain breathability too as hate being sweaty and like to open the vents when things heat up


----------



## ridinbend (Aug 2, 2012)

SAVETHISNOOB said:


> So the general consensus appears to be a thin baselayer, a fleecy midlayer and a shell?
> 
> Things like the thermoball northwave jacket are overkill/bulky?
> 
> I'm keep to maintain breathability too as hate being sweaty and like to open the vents when things heat up


It will always depend on where your riding and the conditions. When it's cold and blowing hard for half the lift ride, the down layer can do a lot. Me personally, I ride with the base/mid/shell.


----------



## wrathfuldeity (Oct 5, 2007)

SAVETHISNOOB said:


> So the general consensus appears to be a thin baselayer, a fleecy midlayer and a shell?
> 
> Things like the thermoball northwave jacket are overkill/bulky?
> 
> I'm keep to maintain breathability too as hate being sweaty and like to open the vents when things heat up


One of the basic things to look at in outerware is airflow...(which imho is just as important if not more than rated breath-ability....and airflow is different for skiers vs riders vs with or with out pack.


----------



## neni (Dec 24, 2012)

wrathfuldeity said:


> One of the basic things to look at in outerware is airflow...(which imho is just as important if not more than rated breath-ability....and airflow is different for skiers vs riders vs with or with out pack.


+1
Underarm vents and leg vents are a must for shells


----------



## Bamfboardman (Dec 11, 2012)

neni said:


> +1
> Underarm vents and leg vents are a must for shells


Some Jackets even have back vents. I feel like that would be incredibly awesome.


----------



## SAVETHISNOOB (Feb 29, 2012)

So what do people think about products like SKIN for baselayers.

In particular the snowsports targeted ones so the a200 thermal:
Skins Men's A200 Thermal L/S Zip Neck

Or the older version the s400:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Skins-S400-Thermal-Sleeve-Compression/dp/B0054XZV66

Obviously these would just be a baselayer but I've read a couple of reports saying people have worn these and a shell and been toasty. I guess I could wear one of these, a t-shirt/light fleecy thing and the shell?
Maybe better than getting an all out heavyweight mid-layer like the northface thermoball?


----------



## ridinbend (Aug 2, 2012)

SAVETHISNOOB said:


> So what do people think about products like SKIN for baselayers.
> 
> In particular the snowsports targeted ones so the a200 thermal:
> Skins Men's A200 Thermal L/S Zip Neck
> ...


Icebreaker Men's Bodyfit 200 Oasis L/S Half Zip


----------



## 16gkid (Dec 5, 2012)

SAVETHISNOOB said:


> Obviously these would just be a baselayer but I've read a couple of reports saying people have worn these and a shell and been toasty. I guess I could wear one of these, a t-shirt/light fleecy thing and the shell?
> Maybe better than getting an all out heavyweight mid-layer like the northface thermoball?


I get the 10 dollar version of that compression shirt at meijers and unless it dips below 10 degrees i usually rock that and my shell only, keeps me warm


----------



## jdang (Oct 5, 2014)

ridinbend said:


> SAVETHISNOOB said:
> 
> 
> > So what do people think about products like SKIN for baselayers.
> ...


Yay I have that. Do you wear it with just a shell or layered on top?


----------

