# Correct boots for relieving pain



## wrathfuldeity (Oct 5, 2007)

First, your boots are too big. I have small feet mondo 24, you have 25.5. You are likely going to have to go to women's boots...based on ime...go 32's women dual boas. Idk abt burton's...but if they fit pull the trigger. One of the problems is that you are a women's 8 to 9...possibly 8.5 which is in the popular women's size. So read up on women's boots, you want something wide...ish...so my suggestion is 32's. But you will have to pay particular attention to the brand's width...and some (most) women's boots are normal to narrow. Also, 32's generally pack out at least .5 of a size. Fourtunately you are light enough...but you are going to want the stiffest women's boots.

Also there are tons of mods. I have extensively modded liners over the years. See the link for a discussion of mods for my AT boots. (1) The hardboot ride...downhill? | Snowboarding Forum - Snowboard Enthusiast Forums


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## Sayuayami (10 mo ago)

wrathfuldeity said:


> First, your boots are too big. I have small feet mondo 24, you have 25.5. You are likely going to have to go to women's boots...based on ime...go 32's women dual boas. Idk abt burton's...but if they fit pull the trigger. One of the problems is that you are a women's 8 to 9...possibly 8.5 which is in the popular women's size. So read up on women's boots, you want something wide...ish...so my suggestion is 32's. But you will have to pay particular attention to the brand's width...and some (most) women's boots are normal to narrow. Also, 32's generally pack out at least .5 of a size. Fourtunately you are light enough...but you are going to want the stiffest women's boots.
> 
> Also there are tons of mods. I have extensively modded liners over the years. See the link for a discussion of mods for my AT boots. (1) The hardboot ride...downhill? | Snowboarding Forum - Snowboard Enthusiast Forums


Thank you for your response!
I think that woman boots - like you said, women's boots tend to go on the narrow side.
According to threads I've read on this forums and tables, my feet is EE/EEE wide (based on the chart here).
So im not sure how it is going to work.

Also - as I've mentioned, i dont have the option to go around and try shoes, i really wanted the 32 TM-2 Wide but could not find anything online that are in stock.

The only wide boots i found in stock with international shipping for me are burton photon wide.
I did a lot of research reading tons of posts in this forum including the post you liked me.
From what I understood, i need to go for a boot that is exactly on my mondo size but also WIDE.

So the current situation is that im debating whether i should buy the photon boots wide in my exact mondo size that are on stock online and take that risk or not..

Also, would you be able to address my question regarding the bindings?

Thank you!


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## wrathfuldeity (Oct 5, 2007)

Sayuayami said:


> Thank you for your response!
> I think that woman boots - like you said, women's boots tend to go on the narrow side.
> According to threads I've read on this forums and tables, my feet is EEE wide (11cm+).
> So im not sure how it is going to work.
> ...


Bindings....wait til you get the boots sorted...then fit them into the proper sized bindings...there are lots of bindings.


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## Sayuayami (10 mo ago)

wrathfuldeity said:


> Bindings....wait til you get the boots sorted...then fit them into the proper sized bindings...there are lots of bindings.


As i mentioned, i already have new bindings (burton cartel reflex):



> So if I am to follow my mondo size (size 7.5). it is 0.5 size below the "range" of burton cartel, and the recommended is to use Small bindings. im not sure if this is a big issue as well but it will suck if i also need to replace my bindings. my whole setup is new.


I'm wondering that IF i pick boots in my size - does that mean i will also have to get new bindings because they are 0.5 smaller than the range ?


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## Sayuayami (10 mo ago)

@Wiredsport I would be happy if you can read my original message and advise as well! thank you!


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## bseracka (Nov 14, 2011)

boots first then deal with bindings. stop focusing on having to use your cartels especially if they cause you to use a boot that doesn't fit properly. You can't have both a poor fitting boot and happy feet


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## SEWiShred (Jan 19, 2019)

Just an FYI it's possible to have properly fitting boots but have the wrong bindings cause foot pain. You can over tighten the bindings and cause pain.


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## bseracka (Nov 14, 2011)

SEWiShred said:


> Just an FYI it's possible to have properly fitting boots but have the wrong bindings cause foot pain. You can over tighten the bindings and cause pain.


Very true. I'd say more commonly people are overtightening their bindings to compensate for a ill fitting boot.


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## Sayuayami (10 mo ago)

Okay so bindings aside for now.

I need to know the following:

1. If my shoe size is US7.5/mondo size is 25.5 and my foot width is EE or EEE (10.6cm)(based on this chart). - should i be going for WIDE boots?

2. I am usually wearing US8 for normal shoes while US7.5 can sometime feel too tight with some brands, should i be going for my mundo size in snowboard boots no matter what?

3. Since I could never find WIDE boots for my size in any ski resort I've been to(the country i live in doesn't have ski/snowboard shops) - my only option is to order ones online if i want it to be in my size. would you recommend that having that my only option?

4. The only WIDE boots I could find online with international shipping in my size were the Burton Photon BOA - should i just order it before it runs out of stock as well?

I am just afraid to arrive to my snowboard vacation and have to deal with this again or spending money on non-wide boots that fit well at the store but kills me on the slopes.

Thanks!


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## SkA (Jan 3, 2022)

When I'm reading your issues with the oversized normal boots, it reads like my story when I bought my Burton Ions in 2015. Nobody at the store told me I have wide feet, and in all honesty I don't think wide models existed at that time, they just told me I need a size US 8.5 (I'm now using a wide model size US 7.5).

The boots felt great in the store.

Using them was painful - I had pain across my whole sole/arch for the first couple of hours of riding and I had to stop constantly (on the piste). For some reason, after a couple of hours, the pain went away but I suspect it's because my feet warmed up and the boots softened up a bit, so I could tie them down more aggressively.

Anyway, I went back to the store and they pulled out the same solution as in your case - custom molded foot beds for 100€. It did not help. 3 seasons later I found out, by sheer luck, that using double socks solves all my issues (apart from the fact that my feet would get colder than needed, because the liner wasn't able to take the moisture away).

Anyway, fast forward to this year, when I had to buy new boots and this time I went with a wide model in my correct size. I have all kind of issues with it, I won't go into that, and I've modified it heavily already to try and resolve those issues, but one thing I can tell you is that if I do not tighten down the front part of the boot (lower speed zone area), I get similar pain across my arch/sole as I did with my oversized Ions.

As far as I can see, if you have too much room across your instep, you'll be arching your foot too much when going on the toe edge and that'll induce horrible arch/sole pain. I don't think that's something you can fix with j-bars/ankle wraps/whatever alone, because they'll never be aggressive enough (I think) to be able to hold your foot down if you've got wiggle room around the instep/end of instep, that would allow you to flex your sole up as you're pressing on the toes.

So, if you're dead set on trying the oversized boots again, I'd try doubling down on the socks just to see if that helps. It can reduce heel lift as well since you'll have a wider ankles from double socks. If the heel lift is still horrible, you could go to a boot fitter and get some j-bars/ankle wraps/whatever installed on the liner which should help at least some. And yeah, I realize you'd be able to achieve similar results by using Angry Snowboarder's boot fitting 101 (on youtube) guide to reduce volume all around, but given you already tried using two insoles and it's still no good, it might be easier to fatten your foot with socks than try and modify your boots with a bunch of custom foam cut outs and additional instep shims for height, as it's usually a lengthily process of modifying and trying out the modification on the slopes over and over again.

Anyway, it's terrible advice, I know - Ideally try and get some wide models boots in correct size, and purchase or rent different bindings (several reasons for that - improved response, correctly centered weight on the board etc).  So about your questions, if you're 255 cm and 10.6 cm you def. need EEE boots - either the Burton Ruler / Ion or TM-2 Wide it seems (based on reports from other users here). The Photon Wides should also work width wise, from what I understand, but they are rarely suggested here - I think because some report discomfort due to the boa heel lift prevention system? And if you're looking at stock from Burton.com directly, I can tell you they keep running out and restocking time to time (as far as I've seen this season). Don't go for Salomon wide models as they aren't meant for EEE width.


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## Sayuayami (10 mo ago)

SkA said:


> When I'm reading your issues with the oversized normal boots, it reads like my story when I bought my Burton Ions in 2015. Nobody at the store told me I have wide feet, and in all honesty I don't think wide models existed at that time, they just told me I need a size US 8.5 (I'm now using a wide model size US 7.5).
> 
> The boots felt great in the store.
> 
> ...



Thank you for your reply!
I can try again to use double socks, I remember that last time I've tried it, my feet went really cold and it did not solve my problem. 
Another main issue is that i get to snowboard maybe 12 days a season at best. while i dont live in a place that has boot fitters/snowboard shops and such, im always depended on the limited stock ski resorts has when i get to them.

Im also not a fan of burton boots i've had a really bad experience with my first ones (burton ambush) not only they killed me feet the soles broke apart after 6 days of riding.
I am looking to find the TM-2 Wide BOA online, I managed to locate size 8 somewhere.

Should I be looking for size 7.5 EEE boots or size 8 would work fine as well?


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## SkA (Jan 3, 2022)

Sayuayami said:


> Should I be looking for size 7.5 EEE boots or size 8 would work fine as well?


I would do multiple measurements, based on exact instructions from Wiredsport's video 



 . I say multiple because I've done this at home and initially started with 254 cm, then ended up figuring out I'm really 251 cm and 250 cm.

If you've measured 251-255 , then look for Mondo 255 which is US 7.5 for 32 or Burton (double check the boot manufacturer's sizing guide).
If you're 256-260, then mondo 260, which is usually US 8 for 32 or Burton.

I don't know about the effect of using a 5 mm larger boot but ideally you want to avoid it I think (might increase heel lift, or some other incorrect foot position).  If you're unsure, perhaps ordering both numbers and returning the one that didn't fit is smart. I didn't do it and regret not trying out a US 7 as well.  I say this because I've had noticable heel lift, even more so on my smaller foot, and I kept feeling like I can't tighten them down enough at the end of the day when things softened up and my feet warmed up.



Sayuayami said:


> I can try again to use double socks, I remember that last time I've tried it, my feet went really cold and it did not solve my problem


If you've tried already (in the Nitro TLS) and it didn't rectify the solution, then I'd focus more on getting a pair of properly sized boots I guess. Yeah, your feet get colder, that's true. I mentioned the double socks (and I know it's a frowned upon solution) because , for whatever reason, they provided me with nirvana for the next 4 years, before the liner fell apart. 

But different feet, different solutions.


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## Sayuayami (10 mo ago)

SkA said:


> I would do multiple measurements, based on exact instructions from Wiredsport's video
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thank you so much for your response!

I've measured my feet again like 10 times based on this guide.
So it turns out my Left foot is 25.4cm and my right foot is 25.5cm.
Width remains the same on both 10.5/10.6CM (its really inbetween the two like 10.55)

The Nitro TLS that i have are mondo 270 so surely not for me.
I am leaning towards grabbing a US7.5(255) as u said, how bad it would be if i cant find anything in stock and forced to go for the 260(US8) one? assuming it would pack out will cause heel lift i guess?
I made some research and i really want to get my hands on the 32 TM-2 wide but i cant find it anywhere online, from what I managed to find in my size online is only the burton photons and im not sure about them based on some negative reviews.


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## bseracka (Nov 14, 2011)

Glad to hear you measured and are trying to get the right boot size. Personally I’d say if you can finish out the season with your current boots and then buy all the 7.5s next year to find the right boot fit that would be the way I would go.


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## SkA (Jan 3, 2022)

Sayuayami said:


> I am leaning towards grabbing a US7.5(255) as u said, how bad it would be if i cant find anything in stock and forced to go for the 260(US8) one?


I honestly don't know, but people usually try to fit in a smaller boot, than larger  - as everyone keeps saying, you want a snug fit all around.  And you'll be closer to the toe edge with your toe, hence more control. 

Could be fine or, as I've said, you could figure out on the piste that your feet are moving around too much and causing more discomfort.  Burton.com own web shop doesn't ship to your country? Burton Ions would be a more popular choice than the Photons if you're into a more stiff boot.


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## Sayuayami (10 mo ago)

bseracka said:


> Glad to hear you measured and are trying to get the right boot size. Personally I’d say if you can finish out the season with your current boots and then buy all the 7.5s next year to find the right boot fit that would be the way I would go.


Thank you!
It is a good idea considering the fact that maybe new models will come in, but my plan is to go to some peaks that still have snow during the summer in the alps.
Hence i am strongly considering ordering something online just to have it, because from what I've seen getting a wide models in my size with international shipping to my country is going to be hard 



SkA said:


> I honestly don't know, but people usually try to fit in a smaller boot, than larger  - as everyone keeps saying, you want a snug fit all around.  And you'll be closer to the toe edge with your toe, hence more control.
> 
> Could be fine or, as I've said, you could figure out on the piste that your feet are moving around too much and causing more discomfort.  Burton.com own web shop doesn't ship to your country? Burton Ions would be a more popular choice than the Photons if you're into a more stiff boot.


I think I will just try to go for the 7.5 and maybe get them heat molded when i reach a store in a resort. the Ions wide are a good option indeed. burton website doesn't ship to my country no, and the only available boot with international shipping i found so far were the photons since im not a burton fan i would prefer to give a shot to the 32 if i can get my hands on them. which i doubt it.

I didn't want to jump into another subject in a boots section so I created another thread to figure out what im going to do with my current bindings once i get new boots as they seem to be on a different size range.

Thank you so much, your advise helped a lot!


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## robotfood99 (Mar 19, 2016)

Forget about your street shoe size how they fit. They are notoriously inaccurate and vary all over the sizing charts by brands. 

Assuming your measurements are correct, you should be in 7.5 wides. Ideally, you want to compare different sizes of the same boot - i.e. 7.5 wide Ions vs/ 8 regular/wide Ions. Comparing between 7.5 wide Burton vs. 8 wide 32s may leave you with more questions than answers. It’s not how you do a size AB test. 

Bindings: I wear size 8 boots (Burton, Ride, adidas) and use both small and medium Burton bindings. In medium bindings, there is about an index finger’s width of space between the forefoot and binding footbed and will result in a looser lateral feel. Small bindings offer the perfect fit with boots but the straps are a little tight so I replaced them with medium straps. 

Your 7.5 boots will be better in smalls, but if you don’t want to part ways with your mediums yet, you could try swapping out the straps for small (shorter) straps. You will need to buy these at an additional cost, though. And your boots will have noticeable lateral play in the footbeds. 

For now, I'd concentrate on the boots. Then tackle the bindings. Good luck.


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## wrathfuldeity (Oct 5, 2007)

OP the other thing, not discussed, is the level of fit. There are 3 levels: Lodge Bunny, Recreationist and Performance. At 12 days per season, you are in the recreationist level. Perhaps you want a performance level...but that takes time and commitment for several reasons. The reasons, being mods, uncomfortable and/or pain while forming the liner, while breaking in and/or modding the shell, while progressing and figuring out the mods, the progressing and sorting of your skills and techniques...AND dealing with the malleability of your feet as to activity and conditioning. Presuming you want a performance fit...for example, most of the year you are surfing and running around in flip flops or canvas shoes or even running shoes...your feet are going to spread verses hiking in real sturdy performance hiking boots...your feet are not going to be spread as much and they are already going to be conditioned and accustomed to a tighter fitting boot. Then you add snowboarding...which is a rather unusual activity for feet whether your feet are well seasoned or not. If not, your feet need time as in number of days riding to get conditioned. Another thing is blood flow management...rarely discussed...is about hydration, blood flow and making sure you have enough room in both your calves/cuffs, perhaps using compression sleeves and the lower foot/boot area. This involves, arch support, instep room management, foot beds and perhaps shaving foot beds...etc. It has taken me 12-14 years of figuring my feet and boot fit out and even now I continue to do small tweaks to get slipper performance.

The thing about double socks to soak up volume for performance level fit NO...just fucking NO and I will not go in to that discussion. Also 5mm is HUGE amount of slop...the target is more like 1 mm and less.

Sir/op you are a recreationist and obviously you have no commitment nor patience nor realistic resources/ability for attaining a performance fit. Everybody here will have an opinion and ideas...and for you they will be bunk shit...including moi. Sir you and your feet are the ones determining and deciding what works or not...its not us, its not some bootfitter nor shop slave....so continue wondering around in hell in your too big and ill fitting boots.

Either take the time and make the commitment or not...at only being able to ride 7-12 days a year, it will take you decades to get to a slipper performance fit...so stuck at recreationalist...pain management and frequent breaks of loosening your boots.

Just trying to give you some reality so that you can manage your expectations and frustrations of this wonderful sport.


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## SEWiShred (Jan 19, 2019)

SkA said:


> Anyway, it's terrible advice, I know - Ideally try and get some wide models boots in correct size, and purchase or rent different bindings (several reasons for that - improved response, correctly centered weight on the board etc).  So about your questions, if you're 255 cm and 10.6 cm you def. need EEE boots - either the Burton Ruler / Ion or TM-2 Wide it seems (based on reports from other users here). The Photon Wides should also work width wise, from what I understand, but they are rarely suggested here - I think because some report discomfort due to the boa heel lift prevention system? And if you're looking at stock from Burton.com directly, I can tell you they keep running out and restocking time to time (as far as I've seen this season). Don't go for Salomon wide models as they aren't meant for EEE width.


I am one of the complainers about Photon Wides. The J-Bars are huge in the back of the liner and they are a part of the liner. If you have any sort of big ankles or anything, even heat molding them isn't enough to make them feel good because there's just too much material there. I grabbed a heat gun and got them very hot them smashed them down. Even then I have to basically kick my foot down and put all my weight onto my heel and angle my foot up and tighten the inner liner as much as possible to get a day without too much pain. I thought the boots were way too small and wired steered me wrong until I figured out the j-bars were so big they were pushing my foot forward and causing me problems with my toes hitting the front of the boot so much I'd ice my toes after riding because they hurt that bad. 

If you have smaller ankles you will probably be ok, but the big j-bars completely ruin those boots. It took some modification to get them to work right. They actually aren't that bad now for me. They are just tight around the balls of my feet now and giving me pain there, but my toes are fine after the j-bar modification. The other guy I talked to about the j-bars agreed with me that was the problem, and he told me he heated them up with a heat gun then smashed them down overnight with a clamp and it made them a lot better, but he still had problems.


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## Rip154 (Sep 23, 2017)

Get a Salomon Wide and Adidas boot, send back the one that hurts like hell after wearing it for an hour. Also get Burton Lexa X Re:Flex in medium.


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## Sayuayami (10 mo ago)

robotfood99 said:


> Forget about your street shoe size how they fit. They are notoriously inaccurate and vary all over the sizing charts by brands.
> 
> Assuming your measurements are correct, you should be in 7.5 wides. Ideally, you want to compare different sizes of the same boot - i.e. 7.5 wide Ions vs/ 8 regular/wide Ions. Comparing between 7.5 wide Burton vs. 8 wide 32s may leave you with more questions than answers. It’s not how you do a size AB test.
> 
> ...



Thank you! I can't see too many options online, the ION wides are only for step-on and I'd prefer to avoid step on setup (didn't hear much positive feedbacks about it).
So its pretty much the TM-2 wide or Photons wide, there's also Ruler wide but no BOA.

I'll try to see what I can get and if i get them anytime soon i will post pictures with the bindings since im not sure how its supposed to be fitting properly.





wrathfuldeity said:


> OP the other thing, not discussed, is the level of fit. There are 3 levels: Lodge Bunny, Recreationist and Performance. At 12 days per season, you are in the recreationist level. Perhaps you want a performance level...but that takes time and commitment for several reasons. The reasons, being mods, uncomfortable and/or pain while forming the liner, while breaking in and/or modding the shell, while progressing and figuring out the mods, the progressing and sorting of your skills and techniques...AND dealing with the malleability of your feet as to activity and conditioning. Presuming you want a performance fit...for example, most of the year you are surfing and running around in flip flops or canvas shoes or even running shoes...your feet are going to spread verses hiking in real sturdy performance hiking boots...your feet are not going to be spread as much and they are already going to be conditioned and accustomed to a tighter fitting boot. Then you add snowboarding...which is a rather unusual activity for feet whether your feet are well seasoned or not. If not, your feet need time as in number of days riding to get conditioned. Another thing is blood flow management...rarely discussed...is about hydration, blood flow and making sure you have enough room in both your calves/cuffs, perhaps using compression sleeves and the lower foot/boot area. This involves, arch support, instep room management, foot beds and perhaps shaving foot beds...etc. It has taken me 12-14 years of figuring my feet and boot fit out and even now I continue to do small tweaks to get slipper performance.
> 
> The thing about double socks to soak up volume for performance level fit NO...just fucking NO and I will not go in to that discussion. Also 5mm is HUGE amount of slop...the target is more like 1 mm and less.
> 
> ...


Thats a very good point.. i know its a lot of trial & error and its very hard to do in my case, i am aiming to be able to snowboard at least 30 days a season soon tho.
It is true that when I went on longer snowboard vacations after 3-4 days of snowboarding the pains has been reduced but i was still suffering from insane heel lift i assume due to the boot size, unfortunately the 2 bootfitter's I've encountered so far that sold me boots never mentioned that the boots should be 'snug' and whenever i said that i feel like the edge is touching my toe they instantly came up with a bigger boot.. which, after reading a lot here i understand that it can greatly contribute to the pains im experiencing.

Thanks for your feedback!




SEWiShred said:


> I am one of the complainers about Photon Wides. The J-Bars are huge in the back of the liner and they are a part of the liner. If you have any sort of big ankles or anything, even heat molding them isn't enough to make them feel good because there's just too much material there. I grabbed a heat gun and got them very hot them smashed them down. Even then I have to basically kick my foot down and put all my weight onto my heel and angle my foot up and tighten the inner liner as much as possible to get a day without too much pain. I thought the boots were way too small and wired steered me wrong until I figured out the j-bars were so big they were pushing my foot forward and causing me problems with my toes hitting the front of the boot so much I'd ice my toes after riding because they hurt that bad.
> 
> If you have smaller ankles you will probably be ok, but the big j-bars completely ruin those boots. It took some modification to get them to work right. They actually aren't that bad now for me. They are just tight around the balls of my feet now and giving me pain there, but my toes are fine after the j-bar modification. The other guy I talked to about the j-bars agreed with me that was the problem, and he told me he heated them up with a heat gun then smashed them down overnight with a clamp and it made them a lot better, but he still had problems.


Interesting.. I happen to have a very ankle in my case so maybe this would even help me with my heel lift issues.
Which photons do you have? is it the 2022 BOA?
Also, did you get them heat molded? how long have you been using them?

Thanks!




Rip154 said:


> Get a Salomon Wide and Adidas boot, send back the one that hurts like hell after wearing it for an hour. Also get Burton Lexa X Re:Flex in medium.


I didn't see any adidas wide boots online, which model exactly?
Also reg Salomon i read around that their wide boots are leaning towards the narrow side


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## SkA (Jan 3, 2022)

SEWiShred said:


> I am one of the complainers about Photon Wides. The J-Bars are huge in the back of the liner and they are a part of the liner. If you have any sort of big ankles or anything, even heat molding them isn't enough to make them feel good because there's just too much material there.


I don't suppose you've had a chance to try the Ions as well? I ask because the Ions also have some kind of j-bar foam bulge inside the liner, on top of burton selling extra velcro strap based j bars that go into the outer shell, yet it seems people only complain about the Photons. 

Personally, I had terrible heel lift with the Ions out of the box (but I'm 251 and 250 using the US 7.5, meaning I should have tried a US 7 as well, but I didn't), so I had to add additional (custom) ankle wraps and C bars around to rectify it.

Anyway, @Sayuayami I'd say the more models of the correct size you can try at once, the better chances you have of finding the perfect fit for your feet.  And I'm saying that fully aware of how limited, compared to normal width feet, our options are.


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## robotfood99 (Mar 19, 2016)

SkA said:


> I don't suppose you've had a chance to try the Ions as well? I ask because the Ions also have some kind of j-bar foam bulge inside the liner, on top of burton selling extra velcro strap based j bars that go into the outer shell, yet it seems people only complain about the Photons.


The problem with Photon boas is that the upper boa cable loops around the ankle and pinches the Achilles in order to lock down the heels. Sounds wonderful, but it is all too easy to overtighten the boa so that the shell starts to crush the back of the ankle. This was the most pronounced for people with skinny ankles/calves like me, who have to tighten the top a fair bit for a secure fit. I tried other liners (Lifeliner, Intuition Dream Liner) in the Photon shell and got similar crushing results so reasonably sure the boa is the culprit.


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## SkA (Jan 3, 2022)

Thanks for that - I've heard about the ankle boa being uncomfortable for some, but didn't realize it's actually uncomfortable for those with narrower ankles (which I think I have, but was wondering if I should try the photons as well).


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## robotfood99 (Mar 19, 2016)

SkA said:


> Thanks for that - I've heard about the ankle boa being uncomfortable for some, but didn't realize it's actually uncomfortable for those with narrower ankles (which I think I have, but was wondering if I should try the photons as well).


At the same time I was going through Photon hell, a friend of mine with chunkier calves also had Photons but did not feel the same pressure at the back. I think the more the top boa is cranked (i.e. skinnier legs), the Achilles area is tightened more than the upper ankle area.

The crush usually starts on-hill, after your feet and ankles have fully seated into the boots. So if/when you try on Photons, try to tighten to on-hill tightness and walk around for some time for your feet to fully bed in.


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## wrathfuldeity (Oct 5, 2007)

robotfood99 said:


> The problem with Photon boas is that the upper boa cable loops around the ankle and pinches the Achilles in order to lock down the heels. Sounds wonderful, but it is all too easy to overtighten the boa so that the shell starts to crush the back of the ankle. This was the most pronounced for people with skinny ankles/calves like me, who have to tighten the top a fair bit for a secure fit. I tried other liners (Lifeliner, Intuition Dream Liner) in the Photon shell and got similar crushing results so reasonably sure the boa is the culprit.


Ime, this alludes to what I've found to be the major key to a good fit. As long as you have some reasonable room while being SLIGHTLY SNUG for the toes, instep and have arch support the lower part of the boot and liner are good and this allows for good circulation, not having your feet go numb due to crushing nerve issues and having warm feet.

Where as, the cuff is working on both toe and heel sides. On toeside the upper part of the cuff leverages toeside edge. And on heelside the cuff is used to assist in keeping your foot from sliding forward. But the cuff also needs to be assisted by the foot bed and some how keeping the heel deep in the pocket. For example, with mods on my 32 focus/dual boas, I actually keep the lower boa just barely snug...really to take the slack out of the lower cable...but I will crank down the cuff.

The magic is...keeping the heel locked down...deep in the heel pocket. Wrapping the cable around the ankle, imo is not a great idea (for the reasons noted above) and some boots have the boa that uses an internal ankle cuff...but that puts a lot of pressure and restriction right on the area where you are bending your ankle forward...that ime it put pressure on the top of the instep right were it attaches to your leg/shin. And prevents a range of motion to bend the knees and be dynamic.

So the focus is making the heel pocket hold your heel...use butterflies to make the pocket deeper. Many boot liners are rather straight vertically on the back and a butterfly will make a hole/pocket for the heel to sit back in and provide a bit of a ledge for the achillies...IT IS ALL ABOUT THE POCKET!!! Also the c/j's will contribute to help prevent heel lift by snugging or squeezing in on the sides of the ankle while providing a hole for the protruding ankle bone thing. The second secret sauce besides the heel pocket...is using some boot foam on the outside of the lower tongue of the liner that will push on the shin to help keep the foot, i.e., heel pushed back into the pocket. Thus when you tighten down the cuff boa/laces it locks the heel in the pocket. VERY EASY DIY. And thus this bit of foam does not restrict the forward bending of the ankle, so that you can be dynamic and bend the knees...but does allow to push/keep the heel in the pocket.

I should be charging some serious consulting fees...cryptos are accepted.


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## SEWiShred (Jan 19, 2019)

Sayuayami said:


> Interesting.. I happen to have a very ankle in my case so maybe this would even help me with my heel lift issues.
> Which photons do you have? is it the 2022 BOA?
> Also, did you get them heat molded? how long have you been using them?
> Thanks!


I have the 21/22 BOAs. They are heat molded, and I have one year of heavy riding on them.



SkA said:


> I don't suppose you've had a chance to try the Ions as well? I ask because the Ions also have some kind of j-bar foam bulge inside the liner, on top of burton selling extra velcro strap based j bars that go into the outer shell, yet it seems people only complain about the Photons.
> 
> Personally, I had terrible heel lift with the Ions out of the box (but I'm 251 and 250 using the US 7.5, meaning I should have tried a US 7 as well, but I didn't), so I had to add additional (custom) ankle wraps and C bars around to rectify it.


I did not try the IONs either, I kind of need a mid flex boot for my quiver since I have a good park board and a good free ride board. I have never had problems with heel lift with the Photons.



robotfood99 said:


> At the same time I was going through Photon hell, a friend of mine with chunkier calves also had Photons but did not feel the same pressure at the back. I think the more the top boa is cranked (i.e. skinnier legs), the Achilles area is tightened more than the upper ankle area.
> 
> The crush usually starts on-hill, after your feet and ankles have fully seated into the boots. So if/when you try on Photons, try to tighten to on-hill tightness and walk around for some time for your feet to fully bed in.


My problem was that I measured my foot like wired said, but the J-Bars left a large opening and weren't allowing my heel to hit the back of the boot, but the J-Bars were tight against my ankle. So my foot was measured properly for the boot, but the J-Bars were taking up space and pushing my foot forward so my toes were hitting the front of the boot, painfully so, which made me think they were too small. 

Before I crushed the J-Bars (they are still there, just MUCH smaller), I would over-tighten the BOA, which lead exactly to what you said, getting pain in the upper ankle area and heel of your foot. I was doing it because my heel wasn't properly against the back of the boot where it should be, and I was trying to get my heel back where it belongs. 

The J-Bars are laughably big and leave a ridiculously small pocket for my big ankle. 








When I get to this part of putting my Photons on, tightening the liner, I have to put all my weight on my heel, stand on it, then tighten the liner as hard as I can and I don't have toe problems. If I put my Photons on like that, sitting on a chair with no weight on my heel my toes will be crying in 30 minutes.
I have to tighten the liner until there's discomfort on the red part of this image








Then I walk around or do a few runs and it all sort of evens out. I went Friday and got in around 14k vert and my feet were fine. But getting Photons to not hurt your feet is a huge art, one I've never had before.


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## robotfood99 (Mar 19, 2016)

SEWiShred said:


> Before I crushed the J-Bars (they are still there, just MUCH smaller), I would over-tighten the BOA, which lead exactly to what you said, getting pain in the upper ankle area and heel of your foot. I was doing it because my heel wasn't properly against the back of the boot where it should be, and I was trying to get my heel back where it belongs.
> 
> The J-Bars are laughably big and leave a ridiculously small pocket for my big ankle.


Yup, one of the first mods I tried was to take out the liners and try to compress the internal j-bars by applying heat and using wood blocks and c-clamps. It helped, but 10 minutes on the slope and I was still floored by the boa ankle constrictors. The most effective remedies were chunky foam shin shims borrowed from a skier friend that prevented the upper boa cables from over tightening and pushed the feet into the heel pockets like @wrathfuldeity said. But by this time, I was thoroughly disgusted with Photons so let them go for cheap.


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## Rip154 (Sep 23, 2017)

Sayuayami said:


> I didn't see any adidas wide boots online, which model exactly?
> Also reg Salomon i read around that their wide boots are leaning towards the narrow side


All the Adidas I've tried seem to be off the boot scale, maybe they don't qualify to the wide standards. They are narrower/lower than the regular Salomons in the heel, but wider than the wide Salomons in the forefoot. They cut off the blood circulation in my heels, so I have no boardfeel at all and look like a beginner after a few rounds on them.

Salomon wides are pretty much perfect to me, the speedlaced ones, Boa version was like a beartrap around the ankle. In any case, I don't know if they just use thinner liners in the wides.

I suspect the Thirtytwo wides would fit me as well, I used the JP model before, really soft ones so narrower and longer was fine.

Burtons are wide in the heel, and true to size with the width in the toe, but they have a low instep that I can't use even if I want to, the pain is unreal.

Regular K2 boots fit me well with thinner/"wider" liners, and they have a wide option too. The Ride boots I don't know, but probably similar to K2. 

Thirtytwo and Burton seem to be a little smaller than others in size.

Bindings that are too big is almost the same as having boots that are too big, it will ruin your day.

Finding boots that fit is hard, but brands seem to be consistent in fit across the line, so finding a brand that fits is a real breakthrough.


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## SkA (Jan 3, 2022)

wrathfuldeity said:


> The second secret sauce besides the heel pocket...is using some boot foam on the outside of the lower tongue of the liner that will push on the shin to help keep the foot, i.e., heel pushed back into the pocket.


When you say lower tongue, you mean like the piece in the picture below?










Taken from Angry Snowboarder's boot fitting 101 video.


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