# YES boards quality?



## Anais (Aug 14, 2016)

been told that YES board aren't as good in quality as Burton. That it turns to just last for a season, board flex wears out a lot afterwards, just wondering if it's true. love to hear from users whom have experience.😊


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## Myoko (Dec 11, 2018)

Not my experience although only rode 2 of them for 6 weeks straight .


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## Rip154 (Sep 23, 2017)

Saw something about Burton supposedly sharing the "tech" for overbuilding and breaking in board pre purchase with the desert factory, aka Infinite ride?, maybe in return for 3d shaping, so maybe Yes will take advantage of that, as it's the same factory. Burton cores are still a special construction, so don't know if it's the same anyways.

You can't really expect flex to be the same as day one on all boards, and it doesn't have to be a quality issue.


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## Anais (Aug 14, 2016)

Rip154 said:


> Saw something about Burton supposedly sharing the "tech" for overbuilding and breaking in board pre purchase with the desert factory, aka Infinite ride?, maybe in return for 3d shaping, so maybe Yes will take advantage of that, as it's the same factory. Burton cores are still a special construction, so don't know if it's the same anyways.
> 
> You can't really expect flex to be the same as day one on all boards, and it doesn't have to be a quality issue.


damn this is making it hard. had so much fun (first time ever) able to demo few boards. but not yes nor jones. Burton feel good felt really good carving on groomed runs, but hard work on sticky, thickish snow (pulling my legs even with set back and aggressive leaning on backfoot) & moguls. hence again not all mountain... by the way, my rossi diva sucked as hel, I think I am loosing it, it just swings under foot, with no glide today when snow is sticky (waxed not long ago), flat base skating is awkward, it just kept turning on heel edge rather than going straight; then when a bit hard pack/icy, on heel edge (not carving) it grips the wrong way, like few little spoons scooping things out, too much force pulling it down, hence toe edge turns to drop down (sketchy & scary!). rode 3 boards thus far (decent amount of time, 2~3hrs each on snow), burton feel good, custom & ride super pig, none have above problems! I really don't know what's going on, it's me? or the board? or once on stiffer camber there is just no going back?

anyway, this makes hunt for nxt daily driver more urgent... yes hel yes sounds right from spec. but there is no demo. when talked to the shop guy of my struggle between 2, he mentioned problem with yes, and said that's why they don't stock it. he suggested nitro drop to me which I am to demo tomorrow. but judging by the spec, I suspect if I'd like it. it's soft to start with... I don't think I like soft board anymore... and it's less effective edge. so still think yes might be right, however don't want a daily driver that doesn't last, and again, I can't demo. so really not sure how it might feel. 😭 was secretly wishing someone might just tell me yes, yes boards do have such issue, so I can rule it out from options... this is so hard!!


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## Anais (Aug 14, 2016)

Myoko said:


> Not my experience although only rode 2 of them for 6 weeks straight .


thanks for sharing.😊yeah... 6 weeks is probably hard to tell... kinda on the fence to make the call. but goodto hear at least it will last for 6 weeks which is about 2~3 seasons for me...


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## Tiffeey (Jul 4, 2020)

I have the 2020 Hel Yes, and I rode it all last season. There's no issue with the build quality, and it's a sick board.
My fiance has been riding the same Yes Greats for the last 3 years, and there's no problem with his either.


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## Yeahti87 (Jan 17, 2019)

The rep has probably mistaken it with some epoxy-laden boards that decamber fast.

I put 20 plus days on Yes Greats 2019, my bud has added 10 more to it so far and it holds its mellow camber rocker profile very well.

His Typo 2019 has well over 20 days as well, still a camrock.

My Optimistic 2019 154 has the same mellow camber it had brand new after 5 days.

Also the topsheets are very durable and chip-resistant (they peel off in contact with a sharp edge instead of losing chunks). Life time warranty.

I’d like to see new boards in their line with 9m plus sidecut and they have a good but not a superb pop (though very easy to extract) but quality-wise they are in my top tier.


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## Rip154 (Sep 23, 2017)

Anais said:


> thanks for sharing.😊yeah... 6 weeks is probably hard to tell... kinda on the fence to make the call. but goodto hear at least it will last for 6 weeks which is about 2~3 seasons for me...


6 weeks straight should be enough to tell


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## drblast (Feb 28, 2017)

Once you're used to stiffer camber, it's going to feel weird to go back and vice-versa. What you're describing is typical for someone who's switched to camber. If you're enjoying the camber that's good, and you'll probably get better in moguls with it.

If by "sticky" you mean the wet, melting snow when the weather warms up the week before everything gets slushy, camber boards are terrible in that condition and get sucked downward really easily. I keep a flat-to-rocker rock board around for that week in the early spring. It only lasts a few days here though, so I wouldn't choose a daily driver based on that.


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## BurtonAvenger (Aug 14, 2007)

Old Yes stuff from I think 3 different factories ago had issue, current stuff not so much.


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## Anais (Aug 14, 2016)

@Tiffeey @Yeahti87 @BurtonAvenger @Myoko
thank u all, this sounds promising! after all YES hel yes has the best spec/character for me as daily driver. 😀


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## Anais (Aug 14, 2016)

drblast said:


> Once you're used to stiffer camber, it's going to feel weird to go back and vice-versa. What you're describing is typical for someone who's switched to camber. If you're enjoying the camber that's good, and you'll probably get better in moguls with it.
> 
> If by "sticky" you mean the wet, melting snow when the weather warms up the week before everything gets slushy, camber boards are terrible in that condition and get sucked downward really easily. I keep a flat-to-rocker rock board around for that week in the early spring. It only lasts a few days here though, so I wouldn't choose a daily driver based on that.


yes, there was fresh snow, but too wet, once drop on clothes quickly turning into water type. so although looked like pow from far, once getting there, it just grabs and drags the board with no float.

weirdly, my daily driver rcr Rossi Diva sticked so much more (almost unable to move) than Burton feelgood (true camber).

also weird is converting to camber is that easy, yet coming back that hard?

but it is hard to beat the feeling of riding camber. it's just so stable, reliable, and wants to be on edge, also holding real clean edge.
also the amazing natural pop (didn't feel that much on feelgood, but very noticeable on custom x).

camber is good, I can do with feelgood bear the compromise on float, but still worried about grip in icy conditions. heard it's no good, also shorter effective edge when going my size...


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## Anais (Aug 14, 2016)

Rip154 said:


> 6 weeks straight should be enough to tell


2 boardsover 6 weeks, on average 3 weeks each? which is about a season for me...


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## NT.Thunder (Jan 4, 2020)

Current Yes Greats Unic on sale $550 AUD.......good deals going atm


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## Anais (Aug 14, 2016)

NT.Thunder said:


> Current Yes Greats Unic on sale $550 AUD.......good deals going atm


😥I am in new Zealand...
besides, only yes hel yes seem to have caught my eyes for the spec
thank u though


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## NT.Thunder (Jan 4, 2020)

Anais said:


> *😥I am in new Zealand...*
> besides, only yes hel yes seem to have caught my eyes for the spec
> thank u though


Don't be sad - the season looks a hell of a lot better there from the pictures I've seen.


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## Anais (Aug 14, 2016)

NT.Thunder said:


> Don't be sad - the season looks a hell of a lot better there from the pictures I've seen.


😆yeah super lucky still got to ride after covid lockdown again. not complaining about that. just stock availability & price... bit sad...😰

little snow this season, reduced fun, but still a lot fun. good thing about coming from NZ North is we have low enjoyment threshold, very easily pleased 

looks like any snow is better than our snow 😂


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## surfsnb (Jul 15, 2018)

Anais said:


> been told that YES board aren't as good in quality as Burton. That it turns to just last for a season, board flex wears out a lot afterwards, just wondering if it's true. love to hear from users whom have experience.😊


I have 4 YES boards, oldest is the the 2016 Jackpot and that still has a great pop after all this time, over the last twenty years of riding I have ridden lot of boards and collected about 10 keepers, they are Yes, Jones Nitro and Never Summer. The Yes and Jones boards are all made in the SWS factory and I never had any quality issues. Few years back I rode a lot of Burtons all good boards and found the ones made in Austria and Vermont were good.
I think the Yes and Nitro wood cores probably have the most consistent flex and feel and the Yes boards give you life time warranty, what ever that means.


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## Myoko (Dec 11, 2018)

Anais said:


> 2 boardsover 6 weeks, on average 3 weeks each? which is about a season for me...


My experience is with 2019 Yes Great for 6 weeks every day hard riding and 2020 Greats 6 weeks hard riding. Sold 2019 in fantastic condition and have no intention of selling 2020 model as I'm a big fan.


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## Anais (Aug 14, 2016)

Myoko said:


> My experience is with 2019 Yes Great for 6 weeks every day hard riding and 2020 Greats 6 weeks hard riding. Sold 2019 in fantastic condition and have no intention of selling 2020 model as I'm a big fan.


cool！thank u. got the yes hel yes now after all the positive feedbacks. now really excited! 😄


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## Anais (Aug 14, 2016)

surfsnb said:


> I have 4 YES boards, oldest is the the 2016 Jackpot and that still has a great pop after all this time, over the last twenty years of riding I have ridden lot of boards and collected about 10 keepers, they are Yes, Jones Nitro and Never Summer. The Yes and Jones boards are all made in the SWS factory and I never had any quality issues. Few years back I rode a lot of Burtons all good boards and found the ones made in Austria and Vermont were good.
> I think the Yes and Nitro wood cores probably have the most consistent flex and feel and the Yes boards give you life time warranty, what ever that means.


😄thank u! great to hear. got the yes board yesterday!


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## surfsnb (Jul 15, 2018)

Anais said:


> 😄thank u! great to hear. got the yes board yesterday!


Great you'll love it


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## Anais (Aug 14, 2016)

drblast said:


> Once you're used to stiffer camber, it's going to feel weird to go back and vice-versa. What you're describing is typical for someone who's switched to camber. If you're enjoying the camber that's good, and you'll probably get better in moguls with it.
> 
> If by "sticky" you mean the wet, melting snow when the weather warms up the week before everything gets slushy, camber boards are terrible in that condition and get sucked downward really easily. I keep a flat-to-rocker rock board around for that week in the early spring. It only lasts a few days here though, so I wouldn't choose a daily driver based on that.


🙄 this is a little embarrassing... you're perfectly right, looks like what I've been experiencing (frustration with my current board Rossi Diva) is 'typical for someone who's switched to camber'...

Got Yes Hel Yes, essentially similar spec as Rossi Diva, and felt it's Diva revamped... good board, yes, faster base and better edges (probably all because I set the Diva edge a bit wrong myself, and it's a bit worn). However, swings under foot (pivoting around front foot), rather than holding clean edges, and lack that locked in stable feeling on snow on edge... To me camber is so much more predictable and reliable for the edge control. Hybrid on the other hand, is a bit messy.

🥶 damn! so easy to get onto camber, yet so hard to convert back... Nothing beats a true camber, especially on hard pack, icy snows, carving. I no longer see the point of hybrid except when snow condition is better for a surfy, floaty ride (soft, powdery, slushy)...


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## Anais (Aug 14, 2016)

surfsnb said:


> Great you'll love it


😅 I like it... but not over the moon nor love it to death, it's essentially the same as Rossi Diva revamped (my current daily driver)...

I think it's the problem of having rode true camber boards... once on camber, it feels really awkward and strange to switch back, especially when on hard pack icy snow, trying to carve... nothing beats a true camber in that aspect...


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## Rip154 (Sep 23, 2017)

You have the other hybrids with middle rocker and camber in the tips, and also pow cambers with camber in the back and a stiffer rocker nose, so plenty left to try


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## surfsnb (Jul 15, 2018)

Anais said:


> 🙄 this is a little embarrassing... you're perfectly right, looks like what I've been experiencing (frustration with my current board Rossi Diva) is 'typical for someone who's switched to camber'...
> 
> Got Yes Hel Yes, essentially similar spec as Rossi Diva, and felt it's Diva revamped... good board, yes, faster base and better edges (probably all because I set the Diva edge a bit wrong myself, and it's a bit worn). However, swings under foot (pivoting around front foot), rather than holding clean edges, and lack that locked in stable feeling on snow on edge... To me camber is so much more predictable and reliable for the edge control. Hybrid on the other hand, is a bit messy.
> 
> 🥶 damn! so easy to get onto camber, yet so hard to convert back... Nothing beats a true camber, especially on hard pack, icy snows, carving. I no longer see the point of hybrid except when snow condition is better for a surfy, floaty ride (soft, powdery, slushy)...


I have several hybrid rocker camber combinations and they carve as well as my full camber boards if they're tuned by trained technician. I have Yes NSB globe board which is basically a male version of your Hel Yes board and also has the underbite, I it rode in Canada earlier this year and one morning encountered really bad ice patches and crud it never looked like letting go, just needs a bit of a tune up, if you're in Jindy go to Cheri Pow they are the best when it comes to tuning boards.


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## Yeahti87 (Jan 17, 2019)

This really looks like a rider error honestly. If you posted a vid from your riding it would help for sure.

I’ve owned like 10 top rated camrocks from Yes/Capita/Rossi/Salomon lately and I have like 5 full camber/directional camber boards now and haven’t had such an issue with this pivoting.
Full rocker boards might pivot like that.
It is possible that you could have ruined your edges on Diva by tuning it yourself (but you can still have it repaired) but brand new Yes boards all grip on ice very well.

Camber does ride a bit differently, offers a better grip (tuned really sharp, if not I’d rather take a semi dull edge tech board on an icy day), stability and rebound but to utilize it you need to start carving dynamically. As you’re not carving yet, you probably got used to a stiff camber board that somehow rides you (that’s why you experience problems in moguls etc.).

I can give an example of my buddy who is already carving but it’s still ‚static’ for the moment. Basically he locks well into a carve, can even grab the heelside edge or drag his hand on the snow with a gopro stick in the other hand carving thin lines but it’s this ‚chair sit’ carve. He cannot pop between the carves, no cross-under carves, very weak ollie. One day last season (like his 40th day on snow) he jumped on my Amplid UNW8 163, a stiff carving beast and my daily driver last season with the suggested minimal weight above his 70 kg. The groomer was icy and empty. He was exhilarated after the ride, raving about how easy-mode it is to just lock in and the board rails like a train. Unfortunately the next day, with some little moguls and some traffic on piste, the board rode him so mercilessly because then it mattered if he can change the edge quickly and accordingly to the situation.
When I spoke to an Amplid rep later on discussing getting another board, he called my friend jumping on that oversized UNW8
‚almost suicidal’


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## buller_scott (Jun 10, 2018)

I've had 2x Yes decks - 2017 and 2018 respectively, and would not hesitate to go back to them. 

Hell, now that they've got their version of Infinite Ride, I'm tempted to get back onto a Jackpot at some point in the future (would have got one by now, if Twelve still had a 156 available).


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## Anais (Aug 14, 2016)

surfsnb said:


> I have several hybrid rocker camber combinations and they carve as well as my full camber boards if they're tuned by trained technician. I have Yes NSB globe board which is basically a male version of your Hel Yes board and also has the underbite, I it rode in Canada earlier this year and one morning encountered really bad ice patches and crud it never looked like letting go, just needs a bit of a tune up, if you're in Jindy go to Cheri Pow they are the best when it comes to tuning boards.


good technicians, boot fitters &instructors r rare treasures to find. unfortunately I haven't had that much of luck... I am in NZ, so not lucky enough to try the workshop u've mentioned. but edges on a complete new board should have been set up right right?
certainly promising to hear hybrids can carve as well as camber. especially as benefits (clean predictable edges, pop) & limitations (float on powder & slush) on camber r both quite apparent. hybrids do sound like a work around if minimal compromise on carving.


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## Anais (Aug 14, 2016)

Rip154 said:


> You have the other hybrids with middle rocker and camber in the tips, and also pow cambers with camber in the back and a stiffer rocker nose, so plenty left to try


😂my poor wallet
but yeah, demo is a lot of fun.wish I can do more


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## Anais (Aug 14, 2016)

Yeahti87 said:


> This really looks like a rider error honestly. If you posted a vid from your riding it would help for sure.
> 
> I’ve owned like 10 top rated camrocks from Yes/Capita/Rossi/Salomon lately and I have like 5 full camber/directional camber boards now and haven’t had such an issue with this pivoting.
> Full rocker boards might pivot like that.
> ...


still trying to cut & upload a video. definitely good to have ways of up skill rather than fixing equipments as one is more controllable by myself than relying on others.

not the tech savvy type when it comes to videos. also I turn to ride alone, especially on technical & steeper terrains.

do u think if it's worthwhile for me to post a vid carving on greens & on camber only? on hybrid mellow slopes, didn't notice that much of problems re messy edges though, swivels under front foot sure. but the spooning, scooping thing is just on steeper & icy slopes.


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## Yeahti87 (Jan 17, 2019)

Anais said:


> still trying to cut & upload a video. definitely good to have ways of up skill rather than fixing equipments as one is more controllable by myself than relying on others.
> 
> not the tech savvy type when it comes to videos. also I turn to ride alone, especially on technical & steeper terrains.
> 
> do u think if it's worthwhile for me to post a vid carving on greens & on camber only? on hybrid mellow slopes, didn't notice that much of problems re messy edges though, swivels under front foot sure. but the spooning, scooping thing is just on steeper & icy slopes.


Put a raw vid of any problems with turning on both boards and slopes. It doesn’t really need an epic edit, you can always delete it if you wanted later on


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## Anais (Aug 14, 2016)

Yeahti87 said:


> Put a raw vid of any problems with turning on both boards and slopes. It doesn’t really need an epic edit, you can always delete it if you wanted later on


😄lol~~ u r over estimating my editing skills. it's certainly raw. just gonna to cut to length u can see me riding. not all the crowd and other people as I turn to wait out crowd, and me & friends talking. u don't want a 5 min vid with me riding 1 min only. also one I can't open easily as sent from iPhone. then try to figure out how I can upload...

unfortunately... I don't have one when I experiencing the problems nor even on my hybrids... I ride alone most of time, and none of us wants to or wish to stop for video when it's icy. lucky managed to get a video & 2 in this trip. but on green only as that's where I managed to find & meet my friends beside the parks they were @. by the way, I don't do parks at all.
probably not worth posting for problem identification. but better than none I suppose. maybe it's indicative enough to have some valuable advices from u guys. 😊


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## surfsnb (Jul 15, 2018)

Anais said:


> good technicians, boot fitters &instructors r rare treasures to find. unfortunately I haven't had that much of luck... I am in NZ, so not lucky enough to try the workshop u've mentioned. but edges on a complete new board should have been set up right right?
> certainly promising to hear hybrids can carve as well as camber. especially as benefits (clean predictable edges, pop) & limitations (float on powder & slush) on camber r both quite apparent. hybrids do sound like a work around if minimal compromise on carving.


If you anywhere near Wanaka, Mark in Outside Sports did great job on my boards over the years and The Waxroom guys are apparently pretty good too, I'm really missing NZ this year Cardrona and TC are my favourite places there, first time in 20 years I can't get there


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## Anais (Aug 14, 2016)

Yeahti87 said:


> Put a raw vid of any problems with turning on both boards and slopes. It doesn’t really need an epic edit, you can always delete it if you wanted later on


oops, missed it when I was down Wanaka, will remember next time. I normally go to SLR @ North. 
Yeah, a bit of interest time, hope things will ease back to normal soon. Eager to go to Japan, re-visit Canada & go to Europe...


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## Anais (Aug 14, 2016)

Yeahti87 said:


> Put a raw vid of any problems with turning on both boards and slopes. It doesn’t really need an epic edit, you can always delete it if you wanted later on


Here we go, hope it works, clear enough to show potential problems. Unfortunately, as mentioned, haven't got videos when riding with specific problems (not that lucky and pampered to get a vid of whatever I want and decided to whenever I want and like, it only happens by chance, if and when a friend is around and OK to take vid for me).

Riding Yes Hel Yes, random riding





Riding Burton Feelgood on green.
Looks like I can carve, but have to be on right terrain, and camber boards more doable than hybrids


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## Yeahti87 (Jan 17, 2019)

Nice riding, good job! 🙂
On this Burton camber way better than you described it in the other thread. Definitely already carving there, nice ankle flexing.
The first movie is on a steeper slope. Isn’t it that you just need more practice with absorbing bumps etc.? Does your riding performance change on this steeper slope if you are on your camber? Are you able to ride that nicely on a green slope on your Diva/Hel Yes?


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## surfsnb (Jul 15, 2018)

Anais said:


> Here we go, hope it works, clear enough to show potential problems. Unfortunately, as mentioned, haven't got videos when riding with specific problems (not that lucky and pampered to get a vid of whatever I want and decided to whenever I want and like, it only happens by chance, if and when a friend is around and OK to take vid for me).
> 
> Riding Yes Hel Yes, random riding
> 
> ...


Nothing wrong with your biomechanics, nice style and technique, just check your stance width and binding angles on the new board sometime very small adjustment makes a lot of difference


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## Anais (Aug 14, 2016)

Yeahti87 said:


> Nice riding, good job! 🙂
> On this Burton camber way better than you described it in the other thread. Definitely already carving there, nice ankle flexing.
> The first movie is on a steeper slope. Isn’t just like you need more practice with absorbing bumps etc.?


Thanks. 

I certainly don't & can't carve on steeper, narrower terrain and hard pack (hence why I thought I couldn't - we don't get nice greens at local resort). Moguls, still just traversing whole way across slope on toe, then heel, etc. Only making smaller turns when it gets mellower (say about 2-3 bumps each turn).

Rode lots bumpy terrain and some moguls, but unfortunately no chance to take vids, either we were too high, or low visibility, or rainy can't be bothered to pull off gloves, or trying to squeeze last few runs before last chair, or too tired. etc., bit of a pity. As they do show a lot more compared to on good snow. But really enjoyed carving on greens on camber. 1st time noticed I can sort of carve a little.

The 1st vid on steeper slope that was on Yes Hel Yes. But snow was soft, so didn't experience the heel edge problem with aggressive hybrids (as how Rossi Diva and Yes Hel Yes are categorized). eg. like many little spoons on the edge, scooping snow out, thus although gripping but in the wrong way to me. Too much force that drags toe edge down when on heel edge. wobbly and scary.



> Does your riding performance change on this steeper slope if you are on your camber?


Not if on Burton Feelgood 149cm, just more aggressive. Actually better and worse depends on snow condition. Better if snow is hard (to me camber has better edge hold on hard & icy snow, much more stable and reliable) . Worse if snow is slushy, deep and soft (in that case, I actually find Nitro Drop a hell lot of fun to ride, Burton Feelgood - true camber bit of leg work to pull the nose up, doable but tiring and don't feel the float).
Yes if I was riding Custom X 150cm. I won't be nimble enough compared to on Burton Feelgood 149. But that has other advantages which I can lay into edges much harder on flatter terrain, and need to test out again, but I seem to be under the impression Custom X is faster edge to edge when on right speed.
Hybrids such as Rossi Diva & Yes Hel Yes on the other hand, are really a mid ground. Doable, frustrating at times with messy edge problems, not excel in either types of snow, again, not quite exciting to ride compared to those leaning into extremes (eg. stiff true camber, or soft hybrids designed for a surfy ride). I used to love my Rossi Diva... just sad in this season I suddenly start to find them much less desirable than used to be.



> Are you able to ride that nicely on a green slope on your Diva/Hel Yes?


No. Can do but not to that standard and ease, and with compromises. They turn to swing under front foot, and edge don't engage nicely as a whole compared to on stiffer true camber. Do hybrids actually require more technique to ride compared to true camber? I just find the edges a bit messy, bit out of control. 2 main problems I experience as mentioned few times before:

Mediocre and annoying when flat basing on flat. Turns to swing under front foot rather than holding straight line where I want to go. Naturally turns (or I should say spin, and turns a lot! especially for Diva, Yes Hel Yes is much better, but still have the same problem) to heel edge from front foot.


On steep and icy (not carving, skidding), toe edge doesn't grip as well as camber. Heel edge is just weird and annoying, like many spoons scooping snow out, hence heavy force pulling/dragging toe edge down. scary.
Right now, I think I just like stiff camber boards, they're quite straight forward and frank. Either can or can't do, they're quite open and clear about it, not leaving you to guess. Their limitations and advantages are both very clear and prominent. Where camber dominant rcr, stiff-ish boards with mag traction are just a bit messy, leaving too much guess work and hesitation, causing reduced trust to ride. On camber, I can go all out, on those rcrs I hold back a lot.


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## Anais (Aug 14, 2016)

surfsnb said:


> Nothing wrong with your biomechanics, nice style and technique, just check your stance width and binding angles on the new board sometime very small adjustment makes a lot of difference


Yeah, I should do that more often, bit lazy though. Having high hopes with the Burton Custom X's channel system. Much easier to adjust, I should and hopefully will try to experience different stances a bit more. 😁
But while demoing, naturally I think I set front foot angle much more open on stiffer camber (22 compared to 15-18 on hybrids).

Definitely a lot more work/practice needed for leg work, timing, and pressure control. Just hopefully I am on the right path to progress...It's a weird season for me both exciting (found camber, and surfy Nitro Drop - so much fun riding that too in slush, so playful) and frustrating (somehow my beloved rcr mag traction hybrids no longer seem to work right, hence, instead of having a quiver of 1 that I can take anywhere any condition, now it looks like I feel more like having 2 boards for different situations... annoying and unpractical on extended trips).


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## Rip154 (Sep 23, 2017)

From what I notice on the first vid, you could benefit from slowing down turn transitions a little, and in the last turn you get all your weight over the front foot, maybe overrotating, but could have been just the ice too. If you pretend to be on a skateboard, or sliding down an icy path, you gotta commit with both feet until you're in balance again. 

In the second, it looks like something an instructor would say, tell you to keep your hands down and to the sides. Nothing wrong in riding like that, but it's not necessary. It might be a better way to carve when using duckstance, and that's where the stance thing comes in, gotta adapt to it or change your style as you go. When you got the turns right, and can put the board on edge properly with both feet, you can be a bit more active with your shoulders and arms when carving and start making longer arcs and tightening it up towards the turns. Stretching out or crouching to slow or speed up the momentum, like when doing frontflips or backflips or 360s on a trampoline (or board).

Just trying to find ways to improve, your riding already looks better than most people I see on the mountain.

Seen these guys?:


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## drblast (Feb 28, 2017)

From the videos your riding looks really good. If you like camber and this is the kind of riding you want to do, I'd say forget about hybrids. You're past the stage of needing "catch-free" boards and will appreciate the locked in feel of traditional camber.

If you were doing a lot of switch riding or freestyle a hybrid might be better.


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## Yeahti87 (Jan 17, 2019)

drblast said:


> From the videos your riding looks really good. If you like camber and this is the kind of riding you want to do, I'd say forget about hybrids. You're past the stage of needing "catch-free" boards and will appreciate the locked in feel of traditional camber.
> 
> If you were doing a lot of switch riding or freestyle a hybrid might be better.


This. And one of those hybrids (or a directional camber board with a rocker in the nose in the future) can be also useful for those slushier/powder days.


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## Snowdaddy (Feb 2, 2018)

I personally don't think it's as straight forward as saying that camber is simply the best automatically. Admittedly I'm not the most experienced rider in this group.


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## Yeahti87 (Jan 17, 2019)

Snowdaddy said:


> I personally don't think it's as straight forward as saying that camber is simply the best automatically. Admittedly I'm not the most experienced rider in this group.


It’s the best for icy groomers and she likes it the most.
If I were to have only one board it would be a directional camber with a high camber bow and some rocker in the nose for float in slush/powder. Very much like your carbon matte black rocket


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## Snowdaddy (Feb 2, 2018)

Yeahti87 said:


> It’s the best for icy groomers and she likes it the most.
> If I were to have only one board it would be a directional camber with a high camber bow and some rocker in the nose for float in slush/powder. Very much like your carbon matte black rocket


I'm not saying "don't ride camber" at all. I'm just saying there are boards with cam rock or s-camber or flat or whatever that grips well. If it's very icy, I would expect the some camber boards to hold on a lot better than aa rocker board of course.

But take my Pencil + then. Compared to my First Call 162 or my Slush Slasher which are not pure camber, the Pencil has a much less stable feel in the tail. Until you put it properly on edge and ride the sidecut as it's supposed to ride. 

I don't disagree with camber. Far from it! Just saying that camber profiles don't have to be "pure camber". Much of the feeling of stability comes from the effective edge under or behind the back foot. The Stranda Cheater 170 has "early rise" even if one could argue it's just camber... since there's so much of it.


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## Yeahti87 (Jan 17, 2019)

Definietly it’s not just the full camber that makes a board grip and feel stable. The effective edge, flex, taper, edge tune etc. It’s a combination of all of these and more but for the maximum stability and grip on hardpack, at the cost of performance elsewhere, with diminishing results, the full camber is the best choice. Even Kessler has some boardercross models with a super long EE that have some rocker.
So a full camber is not the ultimate solution for everything for sure.


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## Rip154 (Sep 23, 2017)

Kesslers are tapered camrocks with something similar to what Never Summer calls Variogrip, just that they probably made it first, and it's used properly to extend the effective edge along the rockers.


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## drblast (Feb 28, 2017)

It seems weird to me that camber has become the "expert" option that people seem to have to apologize for riding and liking or people try to warn others off of. Reading this board you'd think that camber is somehow the wrong choice for most people. It's not, especially if you really like freeriding in one direction.

If you tried traditional camber and really liked it, and you aren't a complete newbie who is going to catch edges all the time and hurt yourself, then go ahead and ride camber and feel good about that choice.


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## Snowdaddy (Feb 2, 2018)

drblast said:


> It seems weird to me that camber has become the "expert" option that people seem to have to apologize for riding and liking or people try to warn others off of. Reading this board you'd think that camber is somehow the wrong choice for most people. It's not, especially if you really like freeriding in one direction.
> 
> If you tried traditional camber and really liked it, and you aren't a complete newbie who is going to catch edges all the time and hurt yourself, then go ahead and ride camber and feel good about that choice.


I agree, there's nothing wrong or especially difficult with riding camber. Even if this wasn't directed at me, I still would like to point out that in my comments above I merely wanted to point out that other profiles might work just as well for carving.


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## drblast (Feb 28, 2017)

Snowdaddy said:


> I agree, there's nothing wrong or especially difficult with riding camber. Even if this wasn't directed at me, I still would like to point out that in my comments above I merely wanted to point out that other profiles might work just as well for carving.


Not directed at you at all. Just something I've noticed lately; people seem to be really shy about recommending camber even if someone is like "yeah so I rode a camber board and really liked it" like that can't possibly be true.

It's kind of like the weird hyperbole surrounding boards like the Custom X where the reviews make it sound like if you get one it will kill you and your family on the car ride to the resort.

Then people demo boards and then not trust themselves when they like something that they're not supposed to like because the conventional wisdom says they shouldn't.


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## Snowdaddy (Feb 2, 2018)

Some of my best friends are camber boards.


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## Anais (Aug 14, 2016)

Rip154 said:


> ...first vid, you could benefit from slowing down turn transitions a little..in the last turn you get all your weight over the front foot, maybe overrotating, but could have been just the ice too. If you sliding down an icy path, you gotta commit with both feet until you're in balance again.


definitely, I need a lot of work, I find my timing, pressure and edge control are all quite messy. They mostly align by chance rather than personal control/preference. There was no ice, snow was quite soft. I did intentionally put weight on front foot and try to do rapid and fast small turns on steeper terrain, on the purpose of practicing below technique, but don't think I am getting it...




From 1:16 & 3:56 mark (expert short radius turns & free run in expert terrain).

Not sure if it's just mileage, ride more try to experience and feel it, or is there some nice tips (counting while turning didn't work for me, tried, just not happening)?

Interesting enough, when riding naturally on mellower slope, carving, I turn to be back foot heavy (certainly don't do that on steep icy which can be dreadfully scary to me, when steep and/or icy I'd either be centered or front foot heavy). As starting from last season, when snow condition is somewhat right, I turns to load the tail of the board to spring myself into the next turn (mainly when changing from heel to toe). More pressure on back foot helps it.

Still yet to try that this season, as got distracted with camber riding, carving, other things (limiting snow conditions, messed up edges etc.). But currently under the impression, it might be less doable on stiff camber such as Custom X, which I find it turns to pop naturally from center between 2 feet, minimal or no effort required from me to load the board, it just likes to pop with a little speed & help from the terrain etc..
On the 2nd vid when carving on camber, I intentionally tried to center myself (so more centered than my normal riding stance on mellower terrain).



> In the second ... keep your hands down and to the sides. Nothing wrong ... but not necessary... gotta adapt to it or change your style as you go. When you got the turns right, and can put the board on edge properly with both feet, you can be a bit more active with your shoulders and arms when carving and start making longer arcs and tightening it up towards the turns.


😅 I noticed too many times from the video about my awkward arm placement/movement. Things on the list to work on, but way too many problems to tackle, so haven't pushed it on top of the list yet.



> Stretching out or crouching to slow or speed up the momentum, like when doing frontflips or backflips or 360s on a trampoline (or board).


yeah, dynamic riding, something I am constantly working on. Getting better and worse from time to time. A vague feeling that sometimes I seem to have touched the border, but majority of the times it's just a shadow seems to be there but out of my grasp.

2 things I am currently aiming for, one is the Casi L4 vid above, from 3:56 mark; 2nd is the RK vid below from 0:55 mark.




From my 2nd riding vid, many times (eg. from 0:42, and the bit towards the end) I was meant to or trying to do the above, yet never succeeded. From the vid, my movement is somewhat loose, but it's more like a tired elastic band that goes everywhere, rather than spring with precision that bounces with energy and control as RK etc.
Still yet to find how to get the trick/tip RK mentioned, but comparing vids, I seem to have flexed my ankles a bit yet knees just bent all the time without actively flexing as RK? Is that what I am lacking? I thought I was using my knees, but looking at the vid, appears my knees are almost always in the same position, quite static rather than active?
Also although I thought I kept the upper body quiet, but looking from vid, it appears I am using upper body to throw my legs around underneath? Rather than like RK, quiet quiet upper body, everything comes from the legs and legs only.



> Seen these guys?:


😁 nah, but seen them now! feels like Nitro Drop is yelling at me for all the good times spent together.
I like the surfy style too, so much fun and joy! Interesting to see their stance as well, how narrow it is between knees. Wonder if it's just meant for riding such board and powder... personally I don't think I can do that sort of narrow stance without loosing balance easily. But probably could do it with both feet facing same direction. Being thinking lately if I should try both feet forward stance on Custom X, but haven't got a chance and not that brave yet. Maybe one day (not sure when though. I think we're getting some fresh dump, time to take Nitro Drop out for a ride! ).

Snowboarding, so much fun, so much to learn. And so much frustration on how slow the progression is (for me), yet the enjoyment beats all. When you're not good at it, not even active type into physical activities, with such slow progression, constantly suck at riding yet still keep at it, I have nothing else to call it but true love. 🤭


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## Anais (Aug 14, 2016)

drblast said:


> From the videos your riding looks really good. If you like camber and this is the kind of riding you want to do, I'd say forget about hybrids. You're past the stage of needing "catch-free" boards and will appreciate the locked in feel of traditional camber.
> 
> If you were doing a lot of switch riding or freestyle a hybrid might be better.


😊 thank you. Definitely feel the benefit of stiffer camber, it excels in certain conditions. Though it's limitation is quite apparent too (lack of float and playfulness in softer deeper snow), which makes it hard for me, as I meant to have a quiver of one that I am comfortable taking out anytime any condition. 

Now with so much appeal in camber and clear understanding of it's limitations, and completely messed up daily driver (camber dominant aggressive hybrids), I am again, lacking the quiver of one to bring onto extended trips.

Switch... I should and meant to ride it more, but well, need more determination to bring myself to do it more. 

Freestyle... it's interesting to look back and see how much my riding style and preferences have changed... When it all started, I actually wanted to butter around all mountain. 😅 As it looked so playful and effortless to me, so enjoyable with a care free, relaxed and easy going spirit to it. Only shortly to realize how tiring and hard it is, especially for someone whom doesn't do gym or regular exercises... and local resort don't have the terrain & snow condition to encourage it. I remember once been told that to butter around all mountain where we are at, is a bit suicidal. 😂
Then seen Ryan Knapton's powerful and clean butters combined and supported with strong carves. Then stoked on carving (not what it can do for other things, just carving alone is addictive), then free riding to explore all mountain, going wherever and whenever I feel like. 
Jumps, parks are not for me and I never cared much of them either (not only that I can't do it, but also I was never really into it - which is lucky for me, especially seeing many friends wanting it so badly yet had to hold back in the fear of irreversible injuries).

Too many things I want, too little I can do. These days to me it's mainly to enjoy riding, and when I am not too carried away riding without a purpose other than enjoyment, I work on the basics - practice the turns. To me, it's hard to get the right turn, there are just so much in it, the timing, pressure, edge control, shift of balance, feel and use the board and terrain to help and adapt the turns. My overall control over all the aspects for making the right turn is all messy, too much to work on for supposedly such a simple thing, and for so long I feel I haven't even touched the door...


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## Anais (Aug 14, 2016)

Yeahti87 said:


> This. And one of those hybrids (or a directional camber board with a rocker in the nose in the future) can be also useful for those slushier/powder days.


That certainly sounds promising... definitely should demo more whenever I can. It's a lot of fun. 😁


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## Anais (Aug 14, 2016)

Snowdaddy said:


> I personally don't think it's as straight forward as saying that camber is simply the best automatically.


Certainly not, stiff camber is more pushing into one end of the extremes. It's advantages and limitations are both very apparent. To me it excels on hard pack icy terrain, carving and pop (although I don't do, but can imagine a half pipe or big jump rider enjoy it a lot). 
It's very tiring and not much fun riding it in soft, slushy and deeper snow, certainly doable just not fun. In that situation, I find Nitro Drop a lot of fun to ride, so much float and so playful. But Nitro Drop sucks a lot on icy hard pack though.

It's a pity I lost my sweet mid ground now - so called aggressive camber dominant hybrids with stiffer base and mag traction. Such as my daily driver for many seasons Rossi Diva, and my new board Yes Hel Yes, which is essentially similar and in the same category as Rossi Diva.



> I don't disagree with camber.





> I merely wanted to point out that other profiles might work just as well for carving.


I'd love to hear more about it if you don't mind sharing. Because it's really frustrating for me now that I've lost my quiver of one that I can take out anytime and any condition. Which means a great deal of inconvenience for extended trips and for day trips that when uncertain how the day will turn out. I don't have the luxury and too lazy to bring 2 boards with me all the time.

My current daily driver for many seasons as mentioned above, the spec seem to be right for bringing the best possible from both worlds with minimal compromise on each. It's just frustrating and weird how awkward it feels riding it now. The board can't suck that much, it must be problems with skills, yet I can't figure out how as I've been riding it for many seasons fine and enjoyed it. Suddenly now it felt it's just not working at all which is bizarre. At first I thought I messed up the edges, but now have rode Yes Hel Yes as well (being a new board surly nothing have been messed up yet), experienced similar but milder problems, I think it's more of the profile of the board.

As per my previous post to others, my question around it, which I'd love to hear others opinion and tips on why it's happening to me, and how to tackle it.
Do hybrids actually require more technique to ride compared to true camber? I just find the edges a bit messy, bit out of control. 2 main problems I experience as mentioned few times before:

Mediocre and annoying when flat basing on flat. Turns to swing under front foot rather than holding straight line where I want to go. Naturally turns (or I should say spin, it grips and turns a lot! especially for Diva, Yes Hel Yes is much better, but still have the same problem) to heel edge from front foot.


(more troublesome and worrying than 1) On steep and icy (not carving, skidding), toe edge doesn't grip as well as camber which is OK, livable. *The most scary and annoying part is heel edge. *
Heel edge is just weird and annoying, *like many spoons scooping snow out, hence heavy force pulling/dragging toe edge down*. scary.
I felt and am sure if you tilt it hard and precise enough to keep it purely on edge, it's going to be fine. But that sweet spot is such a small window to me, although I am certainly lacking the skill that can use a lot of improvement, but even for more skilled average daily rider, not many would be carving all time on icy hard pack steep slope right? Then how do you manage it on such boards?

It shouldn't be this hard.

On the other hand, stiff camber, whichever angle you're on it's just so much easier, much more stable, controllable and predictable.

It's like using a soft blade with teeth vs. hard stable sharp knife to cut a hard bread. One is wobbly and scary that you constantly worry you'd cut your hand and it's leaving a messy knife line. The other, sharp, powerful, on point and doing a much cleaner job and so much easier...
For sure I am not given up true camber, it's too much fun. But for certain it's not a quiver of one due to it's apparent limitations. And judging by the spec and theory, such hybrids should be the best daily driver for me (Rossi Diva & Yes Hel Yes).

I just can't help but wonder what's happening. After all, I rode it for so long, and I only started riding camber a few days this season. How could it be such a sudden and hard change? What am I doing wrong? How can I make it work?


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## Anais (Aug 14, 2016)

Yeahti87 said:


> It’s the best for icy groomers and she likes it the most.


😅 if it's up to me, I wish it's nice groomers and fresh pow, great snow coverage to explore all mountain all the time, with tiny nerd ratio around. Nah, I don't like ice and rocks and marginal snow coverage, poor weather, strong wind, pouring rain, loads of crowd, with resort shuts way too often due to poor weather conditions etc.. But that's what I get the most at local resort. You can't just ride the good days as it probably means almost nil riding. So might just learn to ride whatever comes in your way and still able to manage and enjoy.



> If I were to have only one board it would be a directional camber with a high camber bow and some rocker in the nose for float in slush/powder.


definitely a good thought... I am yet to try it.


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## Anais (Aug 14, 2016)

drblast said:


> It seems weird to me that camber has become the "expert" option that people seem to have to apologize for riding and liking or people try to warn others off of.


hmm~~ to be honest I have the same feeling, and glad you said it. I was doubting myself for liking the stiff camber at the start... thought I must have done something wrong...
And yeah, up until to this point getting a little more experience riding stiffer camber, and pinned the problem of my current daily driver (main issue is not potentially messed up edges by me, but more of the profile of the board, which is less controllable and preferable to me at the moment compared to true camber)...
Camber is good, but I don't know why many categorize it as 'expert' option either. It's more about one's riding style, preferences and terrain they ride the most, isn't it?
Different boards are designed for different purposes, and to ride differently.

eg. Nitro Drop, soft hybrid with longer nose to float, is categorized as intermediate on evo, compared to Burton Feelgood (stiff true camber) categorized as advanced-expert. But in soft, deeper snow & slush, Nitro Drop is amazing, where Burton Feelgood although doable, yet don't have that fun factor. However on hard pack icy conditions, Nitro Drop sucks as hell, yet Burton Feelgood excels.



> It's kind of like the weird hyperbole surrounding boards like the Custom X where the reviews make it sound like if you get one it will kill you and your family on the car ride to the resort.


😂 did you read the review on Angry snowboarder for Custom X as well? The guy is a lot of fun, and he mentioned something like 'if you know what you're doing, you'll be fine. If not, you might hook the edges and die'.

I honestly don't know what I am doing majority of the times, but it's really survivable with little sense of safety, eg. don't take it out on highly technical terrains for one's level on the first day, start easy, build it up. And quite enjoyable under right condition even that it's probably oversized for me being a man's board.

Agreed it might suck and hurt for a complete newbie. However, I think for any intermediate rider, if it's a good match to one's riding preferences and terrain, then why not, it's really OK.


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## Snowdaddy (Feb 2, 2018)

Anais said:


> I'd love to hear more about it if you don't mind sharing. Because it's really frustrating for me now that I've lost my quiver of one that I can take out anytime and any condition. Which means a great deal of inconvenience for extended trips and for day trips that when uncertain how the day will turn out. I don't have the luxury and too lazy to bring 2 boards with me all the time.
> 
> My current daily driver for many seasons as mentioned above, the spec seem to be right for bringing the best possible from both worlds with minimal compromise on each. It's just frustrating and weird how awkward it feels riding it now. The board can't suck that much, it must be problems with skills, yet I can't figure out how as I've been riding it for many seasons fine and enjoyed it. Suddenly now it felt it's just not working at all which is bizarre. At first I thought I messed up the edges, but now have rode Yes Hel Yes as well (being a new board surly nothing have been messed up yet), experienced similar but milder problems, I think it's more of the profile of the board.


I just want to keep pointing out that I'm only an intermediate rider, and there are lots of people in here with way more experience at snowboarding.

For a lot of reasons it doesn't really matter if you have rocker zones out in the tips as long as the effective edge and the stiffness of the board is enough to hold your weight in the turn. A rocker zone in the nose can also make the turn initiation smoother and some boards will have an effective edge going out in the blend area between the camber and the rocker. When you tilt the board the nose area of the edge will engage and help the board initiate the turn.

However, if you have two boards with the same length and one is a rocker board and one is a pure camber board, the camber will likely have the longest effective edge. Longer effective edge will make it feel more stable. And if you have more effective edge behind your back foot that will increase the feeling of a stable board. But it's also about how much taper the board has and how the sidecut is along the length of the board.

Odds are that your Custom X has a longer effective edge than the other boards you tried. I think, and guess, that cam rock or other profiles than pure cambers will have a shorter effective edge and less edge behind your back foot. Especially since you might be restricted to shorter boards in general. I'm a big guy and I could easily get a 170 cm board with lots of nose but with lots of effective edge if I wanted to.

A cam rock might be nice to have as a daily driver because it can be nicer in some snow. A set back camber with a rocker nose can make the board nicer for powder while still having the benefit of camber and that longer edge on the back foot. Salomon has a popular board called the Super8 and there's a women's version of it for example.

The thing is that If you want to ride a pure camber board, I don't really see a reason not to. What you could benefit from is a board a bit softer than your Custom X. I think you talked about it being hard to handle in another thread.

My personal favorite board (at the moment) for cruising around the mountain carving and just having fun, is my Nidecker Tracer. It's basically a full camber board with a rather long edge but not very stiff for me.


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## Powderpuff (Mar 4, 2020)

Anais said:


> damn this is making it hard. had so much fun (first time ever) able to demo few boards. but not yes nor jones. Burton feel good felt really good carving on groomed runs, but hard work on sticky, thickish snow (pulling my legs even with set back and aggressive leaning on backfoot) & moguls. hence again not all mountain... by the way, my rossi diva sucked as hel, I think I am loosing it, it just swings under foot, with no glide today when snow is sticky (waxed not long ago), flat base skating is awkward, it just kept turning on heel edge rather than going straight; then when a bit hard pack/icy, on heel edge (not carving) it grips the wrong way, like few little spoons scooping things out, too much force pulling it down, hence toe edge turns to drop down (sketchy & scary!). rode 3 boards thus far (decent amount of time, 2~3hrs each on snow), burton feel good, custom & ride super pig, none have above problems! I really don't know what's going on, it's me? or the board? or once on stiffer camber there is just no going back?
> 
> anyway, this makes hunt for nxt daily driver more urgent... yes hel yes sounds right from spec. but there is no demo. when talked to the shop guy of my struggle between 2, he mentioned problem with yes, and said that's why they don't stock it. he suggested nitro drop to me which I am to demo tomorrow. but judging by the spec, I suspect if I'd like it. it's soft to start with... I don't think I like soft board anymore... and it's less effective edge. so still think yes might be right, however don't want a daily driver that doesn't last, and again, I can't demo. so really not sure how it might feel. 😭 was secretly wishing someone might just tell me yes, yes boards do have such issue, so I can rule it out from options... this is so hard!!


Ever try lib tech? Gnu?


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## Anais (Aug 14, 2016)

Snowdaddy said:


> I just want to keep pointing out that I'm only an intermediate rider, and there are lots of people in here with way more experience at snowboarding.
> 
> For a lot of reasons it doesn't really matter if you have rocker zones out in the tips as long as the effective edge and the stiffness of the board is enough to hold your weight in the turn. A rocker zone in the nose can also make the turn initiation smoother and some boards will have an effective edge going out in the blend area between the camber and the rocker. When you tilt the board the nose area of the edge will engage and help the board initiate the turn.
> 
> ...


hmm~~ I did check out the effective edge when I was struggling a little over purchasing the Custom X 150 or longer... it's 1135mm, 5mm shorter than Rossi Diva 152 (1140) and Yes Hel Yes is the longest with 1150... where Burton Feelgood 149cm is same effective edge as X, so again shorter than any of the hybrids I have...
Wonder if side cut and other things might have bigger influence over effective edge... 

Surely going to try directional camber with longer nose, see how that feel, it sounds promising for me.

Problem is I now have 2 hybrids in same category similar style, which are supposed to be great as my daily driver, yet not working (most strange is one actually worked well for many seasons until now)... But selling my hybrids (good boards according to spec, reviews, match to my riding preferences, styles & terrain etc.) aren't worth it, due to tired local market. If you get a decent board, you keep it. Selling will be of great loss.
So surely, making them work would be much more cost effective to be back on the road of hunting for a new daily driver...

Besides, I am sure it's more of skill problem than personal preference. Liking camber more than them under given conditions is perfectly understandable and normal. But aren't able to make them work to a decent level, doesn't sound right... They're good boards, with great reviews, can't suck that much. Through time I've noticed different boards are for different purposes, and to be ridden differently, some just clicks right away, some might take a bit of getting used to and find the right condition and right way to handle. Weird that I've ridden Diva for many seasons, suddenly starting to find major problems with such profile that I couldn't make it to work. It's curiosity as well as practicality to know why, and how.

I guess I'll try to take it out more, see if I can figure out what's going on...

Thanks for the valuable information. Really appreciate it. What I love about this forum is able to share experiences and information with so many good and helpful people, bouncing ideas and learning from each other, it's been of a great help to me from time to time. 😊


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## Anais (Aug 14, 2016)

Powderpuff said:


> Ever try lib tech? Gnu?


nah... Gnu is hard to come across for me, LibTech, thought about them, my friend rides it and sort of liking it (but honestly, he doesn't care about equipment as he doesn't feel much differences between different boards. eg. compared to his old M3, when I asked, he said it's about the same, just nicer and newer. Also he rides cliffs, very different riding preferences and style to me although both into freeriding)...

But I suppose hybrids, if of similar profile, from reputable brands, they'd be quite similar, won't be a world of differences right? eg. Rossi Diva, vs. Yes Hel Yes. To me they feel essentially the same.


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## Rip154 (Sep 23, 2017)

Lib tech, gnu and never summer, burton flying v and so on, have an opposite profile from the camrock hybrids you tried. Camber in the tips, rocker between the feet. Some of them turn very easy, but can still bounce into stuff with the tips, that you won't feel much with rocker tips. Some are ok for carving, some not at all.


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## Snowdaddy (Feb 2, 2018)

Anais said:


> Wonder if side cut and other things might have bigger influence over effective edge...


I'm guessing the rocker makes it more loose. That's part of the point of having a rocker in the nose. That doesn't mean the board has to inherently be bad for carving.


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## Anais (Aug 14, 2016)

Rip154 said:


> Lib tech, gnu and never summer, burton flying v and so on, have an opposite profile from the camrock hybrids you tried. Camber in the tips, rocker between the feet. Some of them turn very easy, but can still bounce into stuff with the tips, that you won't feel much with rocker tips. Some are ok for carving, some not at all.


yeah... from initial research & purchase of Rossi Diva for my daily driver back many seasons ago, I was and still am under the impression stiffish camber dominant rcrs, with faster base & mag tractions r good and right for me. seems to be a good mid ground covering all with minimal compromise.

if still going with same profile I suppose changing brands won't make much difference. but for sure will be different trying other profile. 😊


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## Anais (Aug 14, 2016)

Snowdaddy said:


> I'm guessing the rocker makes it more loose. That's part of the point of having a rocker in the nose. That doesn't mean the board has to inherently be bad for carving.


could well be... for part of swings under front foot.

yet not sure about problem 2 which is of a major concern...

compared with true camber, to my current experience my hybrids aren't that easy & nice to carve.
eg. Burton feelgood, I was too carried away riding, didn't realize I had 0 forward lean on bindings high back until returned it. yet constantly feel on edge, and looking back on the tracks, clean tidy thin lines even on heel edge.
yet on hybrids, aggressive forward lean, still bit of effort getting it on edge on heel edge (toe is not much of trouble). and tracks left even when thin, don't look sharp & clean. like one drawn with sharp pencil, one with soft tip brush...


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## WigMar (Mar 17, 2019)

Maybe there's an issue with your binding setup. Are they centered on the board, and are your boots centered in them? Perhaps forward lean doesn't work for you. I've stopped using it altogether, and I'm an avid carver. There's more freedom of movement without it, and the highbacks are still there when you press back into them. Have you ever experimented with double positive binding angles? It's not for everyone, but I really appreciated going double positive. It opened my shoulders to the fall line, which I was wanting to do naturally. I've got more control now with less stress on my knees. I personally prefer ++ for carving because it works for my body and my style, but I'm not trying to Ryan Knapton around. 

Camber boards turn out at the contact points. Hybrids can tend to steer more underfoot unless they're over on edge. Skateboarding is a great way to get a feel for that. Angulation and foot pressure are key.


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## Anais (Aug 14, 2016)

WigMar said:


> Maybe there's an issue with your binding setup. Are they centered on the board, and are your boots centered in them?


Maybe... still to test more. But wouldn't imagine it's way out, otherwise how could I have survived so many seasons on Diva...?
Yeah, quite centered on board, and boots centered in bindings.



> Perhaps forward lean doesn't work for you. I've stopped using it altogether, and I'm an avid carver. There's more freedom of movement without it, and the highbacks are still there when you press back into them.


Interesting to know, from RK I kinda always get the idea how important forward lean is... but can imagine it might be different for those double positives rather than duck. Forward lean should be OK, took Burton Feelgood out twice actually, 2nd time not on vid, and I remembered to set forward lean on purpose. Feels pretty good.



> Have you ever experimented with double positive binding angles? It's not for everyone, but I really appreciated going double positive. It opened my shoulders to the fall line, which I was wanting to do naturally. I've got more control now with less stress on my knees.


It's being a thought, yet to try. Not brave or energetic enough, but will try to squeeze it in sometime, and start mild (maybe more of 15 & -6 something or + & 0). When I am tired, I ride switch to give my legs a rest, especially for those long traverses to find the 'paradise', I find easier to keep a higher line switch on toe edge, double +ves. is a little concern in that aspect...



> Hybrids can tend to steer more underfoot unless they're over on edge. Angulation and foot pressure are key.


 Noticed that, yet to practice for improved control, which I see it can be very doable and manageable. Although less preferable, because on camber, no need to try, it just does it well...
But other than room for improvements, somehow I suspect the swingie feeling of hybrids like mine is probably unavoidable. Noticed a friend (great rider, much much better than me) who rides hybrids of similar profile, his board turns to swing a bit under foot when getting off the lift... I experience the same until riding camber. Camber is much easier to control, not only the edges, but also when flat basing. Wherever you want it go, it goes there without a fuss, it certainly doesn't swing.

But *my main concern is, heel edge (side slipping) on hard pack or icy steeper slopes on my hybrids, feels like many little spoons scooping ice/snow out, heavy and strong force turns to drag the toe edge down*. That constant fear of toe edge going to slam, and wobbly on heel edge really suck a lot, making the riding experience so fearful and annoying (the cambers I've ridden doesn't do that, either they hold or loose the edge, all in a very predictable and stable way)... Is this something you've ever experienced/noticed/or can think of a reason/means to tackle? Unlike above which are all understandable and workable to me, this one is just scary and frustrating as I can't figure out why, let alone resolve it.


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## Snowdaddy (Feb 2, 2018)

I've noticed on many riders, including myself, that they try to force heel side turns into a smaller turning radius than what the board wants. With too little board angle this will result in a sliding turn. With a lot of board angle or straight legging it you will get chatter instead.

I would think it's easier to get this effect the more rocker you have on your board.

Adding to this that boards with a smaller turning radius might go into sharper turns when put on edge that the speed would allow.

As a side note I think that a thing an Amplid guy mentioned is sort of crucial when picking a board. The sidecut is there to help the board bend into its turning radius. The radius needs to be matched by the boards stiffness and the rider's weight and skill. I never thought about it like that from my skiing days. It does make a lot of sense though, when you look at how boards bend though the turn and how a variable sidecut works.


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## WigMar (Mar 17, 2019)

This thread about jackhammer action happening on heelside carves has a lot of good information in it. Maybe you're stacking your weight too far forward. That's my problem with heelside chatter. As soon as I feel it, I shift my weight back and it tends to go away. Perhaps you have too high of an angle (board tilt) on heelside turns as well. 

It's common to think you can't ride switch with double positive angles. That's just not true. Switch is just not symmetrical anymore like it is with duck stance. The trade off in performance is worth it for me. To me, riding switch feels like riding backwards no matter where my toes are pointing. Getting used to riding switch with double positives took me almost no time. I might have different feelings if I needed switch to feel symmetrical, but I don't spend much time in the park.


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## mark0157 (Jan 9, 2018)

Tiffeey said:


> I have the 2020 Hel Yes, and I rode it all last season. There's no issue with the build quality, and it's a sick board.
> My fiance has been riding the same Yes Greats for the last 3 years, and there's no problem with his either.


Sweet...I've had my eye on the Hel Yes for a few years and never bought one (I usually look for deals and this one always sells out), but this year I am going to snag one. I'm in the midwest though, so hoping to get a few trips out west where I can really get a chance to see what this board can do!


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## Anais (Aug 14, 2016)

Snowdaddy said:


> I've noticed on many riders... they try to force heel side turns into a smaller turning radius than what the board wants. With too little board angle this will result in a sliding turn. With a lot of board angle or straight legging it you will get chatter instead.


I am not at the stage able to control the degree of de-camber of the board... just trying to get it on edge and clean edge. So although experiecing similar problems, but I think it's caused by different reasons which I am back foot heavy (when not riding steep & icy). Hence the board turns to shoot uphill with tight faster turns, sometimes too sharp caught me off guard a little. Backfoot heavy especially towards finish of the turn help to load the tail and spring me into next turn (not for camber, just hybrids). Yet if timing is not right, it sends the board to a sharp tight uphill turn, messing up balance and edge when carving (skidded turns seems to be fine though).
It can be adjusted by shifting weight centered, and I am yet to practice more to find the right combination of movement to utilize body position and pressure throughout the turns.



> ...boards with a smaller turning radius might go into sharper turns when put on edge that the speed would allow.
> 
> As a side note I think that a thing an Amplid guy mentioned is sort of crucial when picking a board. The sidecut is there to help the board bend into its turning radius. The radius needs to be matched by the boards stiffness and the rider's weight and skill. I never thought about it like that from my skiing days. It does make a lot of sense though, when you look at how boards bend though the turn and how a variable sidecut works.


This is very interesting and seem to make a lot of sense. Thanks, will try to find out more on this.


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## Anais (Aug 14, 2016)

WigMar said:


> This thread about jackhammer action happening on heelside carves has a lot of good information in it.


It certainly does, good reading. Thanks. 



> Maybe you're stacking your weight too far forward. That's my problem with heelside chatter. As soon as I feel it, I shift my weight back and it tends to go away. Perhaps you have too high of an angle (board tilt) on heelside turns as well.


I certainly do have this problem on and off, but this is not what's causing the concern of the frustrating and fearful experience riding my hybrids at the moment (Diva & Hel Yes). When this happens, it's as simple as I'd fall on my ass when on heel edge, perfectly normal and not scary at all.

But the problem I'm having riding hybrids is not much of heel side chatter, it doesn't chatter, and it doesn't give up on gripping hard on snow (icy, hard packed). It seems to have good grip in icy steep condition (again side slipping not carving), but grips wrong. On heel edge, it grips too hard and too messy, strong force turns to drag toe edge down. So I am fearful I'd catch my toe edge when on heels, and face plant tumbling down icy steep slope... 😨🥶 you see where the fear is from?



> It's common to think you can't ride switch with double positive angles. That's just not true. ... Getting used to riding switch with double positives took me almost no time. I might have different feelings if I needed switch to feel symmetrical, but I don't spend much time in the park.


 cool, this is great to hear. More confidence and convincing in trying the double positive stance I always wanted to. thank you. 😄


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## Yeahti87 (Jan 17, 2019)

Anais said:


> I certainly do have this problem on and off, but this is not what's causing the concern of the frustrating and fearful experience riding my hybrids at the moment (Diva & Hel Yes). When this happens, it's as simple as I'd fall on my ass when on heel edge, perfectly normal and not scary at all.
> 
> But the problem I'm having riding hybrids is not much of heel side chatter, it doesn't chatter, and it doesn't give up on gripping hard on snow (icy, hard packed). It seems to have good grip in icy steep condition (again side slipping not carving), but grips wrong. On heel edge, it grips too hard and too messy, strong force turns to drag toe edge down. So I am fearful I'd catch my toe edge when on heels, and face plant tumbling down icy steep slope... 😨🥶 you see where the fear is from?


I believe @WigMar is on point there.
You chatter on your heels. You say the board ‚grips’ weird and ‚too hard’.
This can be paraphrased as ‚the board does not want to slide as I want’.

You force the mid and end turn phase too quickly and as you say, because you are scared of faceplanting, you want to make sure that your downside toe edge is high enough. This makes the heelside edge dig too much and accumulate too much pressure.
Think about this.
What happens when you go fast and don’t put too much pressure on the heelside break? You catch the toeside edge. What happens if you put too much pressure breaking? The board chatters and washes out as it cannot absorb the pressure.
What if you ‚do it right’?
Your board and your legs are able to disperse the pressure properly in the right time window. You break spraying.

You might not be fully aware of that because of the fear you talk about.
Look at your video riding the Hel Yes.
You get speed there, the first turns are fine, the last but one turn shows nice speed check with the snow being sprayed mid-turn, the moment you cut the video I bet you are about to fall  
There’s too much angulation at that tight turn at that speed that the board washed out. Your legs should be more bent there so you could absorb this pressure better and point the board down a bit to let it use the sidecut a bit more.

You can practise on mellow runs trying to break on the heelside edge spraying as much as you can. It’s also a great exercise to control the edge pressure with your legs. Helps with mid carve speed checks, riding ice and popping and landing between the carves. 

Start with tilting the board too much so you chatter. Then very incrementally lower the angle while breaking.
It’s better to wash out and land on your butt than to catch the edge and land on your face as you say for sure


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## Anais (Aug 14, 2016)

Yeahti87 said:


> I believe @WigMar is on point there.
> You chatter on your heels. You say the board ‚grips’ weird and ‚too hard’.
> This can be paraphrased as ‚the board does not want to slide as I want’.
> 
> ...


That I understand... what I don't is why it doesn't do it on true camber, but that badly on my hybrids...

Heel side chatter is a thing to work to eliminate, I get them occasionally when control and speed don't align, it happens to me but not that often to be a major problem of riding. As for camber, if it grips I know it will hold. And if it doesn't, I know the moment it probably won't, kinda expected, and it's ok to let go, and slide on my butt waiting for the right moment to get back up again.

My hybrids on the other hand is strange on hard pack & icy snow on heel edge, the moment it's been tilted (regardless the angle, high or low), you instantly feel the wobble and frustrating drag which doesn't come with my stiff cambers. *Not even to combine it with turning, just purely side slipping on heel edge in such conditions*, tried a few times just side slipping down to figure out if it's edge angle problem that I might find/experience the window of the sweet spot, hasn't happened yet...

I am under the impression if it's riding it's edge in the trench it's going to be OK. But I am sliding turns, trying to control speed I am not carving on icy/steep, so that's not doable, not yet, and it will be long if not impossible for me to be able to carve anywhere and everywhere including icy steeps. So although up skill to that level sounds nice, but not very practical/realistic.

So what's left for me when riding such hybrids is I just can't be on the right angle on edge. Normal amount, it drags and wobble with force seems to slamming toe edge down. Higher the angle, sure, but loose the grip and on butt. Lower the angle? removes the weird grip problem, but it often means lower than I normally ride and comfortable about on speed. Also, I don't have enough edge hold to grip on icy steeps to continue riding, I'd slide. Too fast on a low angle always bear the risk of being too low of angle and face plant hard by catching toe edge. Then the moment you try to tilt it a little higher, the weird grip and drag and wobbly feeling starts again. There is just no right amount or moment on it in such situations, extremely frustrating in riding.
It happens every time, hence becoming a major problem hindering riding. And most strangely, it's only been noticed this badly this season... I've been riding it for seasons fine actually even enjoyed a lot to have it as my daily driver. Not sure if it's the apparent comparison with riding camber emphasized it? Once on things better it's most difficult to move back even if it's the same old same old? Or have I started doing something seriously wrong? If so, why camber OK, hybrids not? What could it be?

PS., you spotted it on, lol~~ next moment I think I did fall in that vid. But it's expected, I was too far out on heels due to various reasons also intentionally trying to speed up the turns for practicing fast small turns, which throw me out of normal riding rhythm, and I expected it would fall. However nothing to do with the problems I am describing (it wasn't icy hard pack snow, didn't feel any of the above problem). So cut it out to avoid potential confusion for discussion with others trying to pin point problem.


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## WigMar (Mar 17, 2019)

I wouldn't worry about pushing the terrain you can carve on. Carving isn't really for icy or steep terrain. Even Ryan Knapton keeps it to pretty mellow blues with good snow. 

I don't know what's going on with your hybrids. Perhaps you don't like the edgetech they have. I personally dislike the feel of magnetraction and the like. I got a few boards with the technology back to back, and was blown away when I got back on camber without edge tech. Camber felt so much smoother, faster and controlled. I feel like the serrations are grabby and slow. I do live in Colorado where the snow quality is generally pretty good. Maybe magnetraction makes more sense on the ice coast. I also haven't ridden Yes, so I don't know how their underbite feels.


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## Anais (Aug 14, 2016)

WigMar said:


> I don't know what's going on with your hybrids. Perhaps you don't like the edgetech they have. I personally dislike the feel of magnetraction and the like. I got a few boards with the technology back to back, and was blown away when I got back on camber without edge tech. Camber felt so much smoother, faster and controlled. I feel like the serrations are grabby and slow. I do live in Colorado where the snow quality is generally pretty good. Maybe magnetraction makes more sense on the ice coast. I also haven't ridden Yes, so I don't know how their underbite feels.


hmm~~~ interesting... took Yes Hel Yes out for a ride the other day, kinda icy (not the worst ice seen, but certainly icy at many places), it's OK, didn't experience the horrible problem as before... Maybe I did ruin the edges on Diva, and maybe I was too quick to judge Yes the other day when it appears to be a little similar (I didn't ride ice on Yes, snow was quite soft when I took it out for a ride the first time), or maybe it wasn't icy enough last time to experience the same thing... anyway, need more testing. A bit of comfort to know my daily drivers can still be used as daily drivers and not sucking that much to render them useles to me. But yes, camber is definitely much cleaner and more controllable on edges, at least to me.



> I wouldn't worry about pushing the terrain you can carve on. Carving isn't really for icy or steep terrain. Even Ryan Knapton keeps it to pretty mellow blues with good snow.


that's what I thought initially, but then some mentioned it's actually better carve on ice than skid it, if you know how, then ice is somewhat ride-able when you carve. If not, you'd always be surviving on ice (no performance no ridding, purely tip toeing, surviving, wish it's over). That sounds like a good idea to me, as local resort is icy most of the time. Knowing how to ride it is much better and more enjoyable, than doing nothing other than managing/surviving it.

RK's carving is different. I'm under the impression he rides nice groomers these days, rather than venture out for free riding. His is full of style and fun, but kinda of on groomers only. Yet carving is functional as well as stylish right? eg. racing (you carve to keep speed, isn't it? So surly can carve on high speed), then free riding when condition is bit icy (some mentioned, pushing hard on edge on ice, you can actually ride and tackle it, else, only option left if flat basing straight lining to get over it, or keep it slow and gentle, low edge angle, ride carefully and cautiously with 0 performance but to survive it).

We don't have nice endless groomers to spoil me do RK style only, many from Canada / Japan complain their off piste is much nicer than our so called groomers. 😅 So free riding, exploring all mountain is more for me. Hence carving has to be functional as well as stylish.

To me what's best of snowboading is the freedom to explore and enjoy. It's not so much about challenges and thrill seeking, I enjoy it as I find it relaxing and mind soothing. My ultimate goal is to make it natural, expand the freedom, so I can be anywhere anytime any condition when I like, cruising and enjoying. Right now, it's too much of something don't feel right, why can't I get here and there. It feels hard and unnatural, not right. blah blah blah... limiting for sure, with lots room for practice and improvements. Anyway, I guess the only way for me to find out and see where I can get to is keep trying.

Appreciate all the tips and help. You guys are awesome. 😄👍


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## vmex (Nov 30, 2020)

surfsnb said:


> I have several hybrid rocker camber combinations and they carve as well as my full camber boards if they're tuned by trained technician. I have Yes NSB globe board which is basically a male version of your Hel Yes board and also has the underbite, I it rode in Canada earlier this year and one morning encountered really bad ice patches and crud it never looked like letting go, just needs a bit of a tune up, if you're in Jindy go to Cheri Pow they are the best when it comes to tuning boards.


@surfsnb You have a Yes Globe NSB. What is your opinion about this board? Whether it is suitable for intermediate skiing, mainly ride on a groomed slope, rather recreational riding. What size be better 155 or 158, I'm 182 cm tall and weighs 76 kg. Is the board very stiff? Could You compare it to Yes Typo? Would there be a better Yes Typo board for my needs?


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