# Difficulty on very hard snow



## zc1 (Feb 20, 2017)

Equally hard to ride toe-side and heel-side? If toe-side was ok and heel-side was poor then try adding some forward lean on the highbacks.

Make sure your edges are sharp.

Keep at it. Hard surfaces also make you worry about falling and injuring yourself, so that's a hurdle to get over as well. Secondly, you won't get any better if you don't swallow your pride, accept looking like a beginner for a while and keep trying.

I haven't ridden an Assassin Pro, but specs say that it does have rocker in the tips. It will grip better with sharp edges and good technique, but in my experience never rocker at the contacts never grips as well as a "full camber" board.


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## bazman (Jan 15, 2017)

Just looked up the Assassin Pro, and it's profile is flat between bindings with a little bit of camber. For grip on ice or hard snow, camber is best. (Or magnetraction but I've not ridden a board with that so am basing that on comments from others)

Not sure about stiffness of your bindings, but can you add forward lean to the high backs? It should help with grip


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## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

What you have described is a day when I simply don't go snowboarding. Cold as fuck? Snow hard as concrete? Fuck that. I'll just do something else.


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## zc1 (Feb 20, 2017)

linvillegorge said:


> What you have described is a day when I simply don't go snowboarding. Cold as fuck? Snow hard as concrete? Fuck that. I'll just do something else.


With a full camber board it's doable and actually fun. Last time we had freezing rain I took a bunch of board out to see exactly which did well on essentially sheet ice. My favourite by far was the Jones Aviator (full camber; this board goes anywhere; it's crazy), followed by the Rossi One Mag (RCR) and then the Prior AMF (full camber).


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## [email protected] (Jan 23, 2017)

*-35 Celcius with windchill*



linvillegorge said:


> What you have described is a day when I simply don't go snowboarding. Cold as fuck? Snow hard as concrete? Fuck that. I'll just do something else.


Hahaha, it was -27 Celsius and -35 C. with the windchill last week but I'd already made plans to go and the surface felt like concrete. I was so cold that I'd overtightened all my adjustments (eg. boots, binding ankle straps, toe straps) just outta being scared to fall that day. It only made things worse. I toughed it out but it was sure a humbling experience. I guess I love snowboarding too much to not go...


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## speedjason (May 2, 2013)

5F? Brrrrrrrhhh. It was like 17F today and I was freezing.


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## Synathidy (Apr 4, 2017)

My perspective on "cold" may be slightly warped living in interior AK my whole life. 5 F is to me like "eh, middle of the road, average, not too cold, not too warm" temperature, and anything like 15 F or above is very warm, super-nice temperature to me. I always snowboard in any temperature, except for one day this season when my resort closed due to it being -20 F. Granted, it's a subarctic desert here, so it's not a wet cold and there isn't much wind.

While icy conditions aren't that common here, we do go through occasional stretches of having nothing but old snow that packs down hard and it can get icy if it's early season and above freezing temps during the day followed by a cold night make ice. I don't know what to recommend for those conditions... I think just take it easy and don't go too fast or take high risk jumps.

I am aware, however, that the way edges are beveled can make a difference on ice. A two or three degree side bevel will give your edges more grip and bite in the snow. I think a one degree side bevel (and 1 degree base bevel) is kind of the industry standard for edge bevels. I probably would recommend leaving base bevel alone since any increased bevel on that one will just make you slide around easier.


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## [email protected] (Jan 23, 2017)

*Edge angle*



Synathidy said:


> I am aware, however, that the way edges are beveled can make a difference on ice. A two or three degree side bevel will give your edges more grip and bite in the snow. I think a one degree side bevel (and 1 degree base bevel) is kind of the industry standard for edge bevels. I probably would recommend leaving base bevel alone since any increased bevel on that one will just make you slide around easier.


Correct me if I'm wrong but it's my understanding that a 1 degree base edge bevel with a 1 degree side edge bevel produces a 90 degree edge? When we want our edges to cut into ice better we look to create an effective edge angle less than 90 degrees. Am I understanding this right?


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## Synathidy (Apr 4, 2017)

[email protected] said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong but it's my understanding that a 1 degree base edge bevel with a 1 degree side edge bevel produces a 90 degree edge? When we want our edges to cut into ice better we look to create an effective edge angle less than 90 degrees. Am I understanding this right?


Yeah, I think that's exactly right. I'm no professional, but that's my understanding as well from the obsessive research I've done into tuning. So you could do that (make an acute, less than 90 degree edge that grips more) by having more bevel on the side than the base of the edge. For example, if the base bevel was 1 degree (1 degree off the snow) but then then side bevel was 2 degrees, then that would create an 89 degree edge. 

I think setting bevels is probably very do-able on one's own if you invest in the proper basic equipment (edge guides in particular), although I'd guess a lot of people would want to have a shop do it. Whatever you do, though, you just have to make sure you KNOW what you want, because I know a bevel can't really be undone... well, not without grinding down your edges a bunch or something. Which of course no one wants.


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## neni (Dec 24, 2012)

Nocturnal7x said:


> It's like when the snow is that hard, I completely forget how to snowboard and feel like a beginner again.


This is a major problem, a downward spiral. One gets intimidated by such conditions (slopes are harder to edge but also very fast), and rides timid, i.e. not tilting the board decently and w/o sufficient tilt, the edge has no chance to grip even if the board may offer enough edge hold, you slip and ride even more timid. Do the opposite: The harder the surface, the more determination.

With a set-up I don't know well enough in such conditions, I first make some trials; deliberately search for continuously steeper/more slippery patches and grit the teeth n push the board, give it a chance to show it's edge hold capacity by tilting. Some boards which were slipping when ridden timidly suddenly show reliable edge hold (others keep slipping ). 

IDK your set-up. I prefer stiffer boots n bindings to get more response/pressure transmission, but if you're able to push n tilt in soft snow, you should also be able to do so in hardpack. Keep edges sharp and increase fwd lean on high-back to get more leverage on backside turns. And ride determined


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## Nocturnal7x (Mar 6, 2015)

Thanks everyone.

Edges should be sharp, board is brand new. 

I had forward lean cranked all the way forward. Sounds like I need to man up though. Next time I see conditions like that I'll try to keep that in mind. I was worried to carry any real speed. Gonna try my stiffer bindings as well.


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## speedjason (May 2, 2013)

Sometimes when snow is hard, the only way to ride it is to carve.
Unless, ice then there is nothing you can do.


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## robotfood99 (Mar 19, 2016)

Nocturnal7x said:


> I had forward lean cranked all the way forward.



Hmm... sounds like it could lead to sudden ass plants. Like having the rug pulled out. I know the Hologram has really squishy heelcup but extreme adjustments on hard snow/ice tend to result in pain. By all means man up but be safe.


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## Varza (Jan 6, 2013)

linvillegorge said:


> What you have described is a day when I simply don't go snowboarding. Cold as fuck? Snow hard as concrete? Fuck that. I'll just do something else.


We're spoiled brats. OP is from the Ice Coast. They don't get a choice, unless it's "don't be a snowboarder".

As has been said, cambered board, sharp edges. If you MADE ME ride the Ice Coast I'd bring my Arbor camber board and have it edge tuned for the trip. 

We had the crunchy stuff on Saturday and I did ok on my CRC Neversummer (at least it dampens the bumps), but when push came to shove I could barely get an edge in. And ours wasn't be bulletproof BS you get over there (err, except off-piste it was, OMG!).

I'd also suggest investing in some protection gear. If you're falling on hard stuff, good impact shorts are a must. I also strongly recommend decent wrist guards (I have the flexmeters). I broked my wrist on Christmas on frozen corduroy cause I wasn't wearing them.

By all means if you need to wrap yourself in bubble wrap in order to feel safe and actually ride, only idiots will look down on you for it. Whatever it takes to overcome, man!


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## wrathfuldeity (Oct 5, 2007)

neni said:


> This is a major problem, a downward spiral. One gets intimidated by such conditions (slopes are harder to edge but also very fast), and rides timid, i.e. not tilting the board decently and w/o sufficient tilt, the edge has no chance to grip even if the board may offer enough edge hold, you slip and ride even more timid. Do the opposite: The harder the surface, the more determination.
> 
> With a set-up I don't know well enough in such conditions, I first make some trials; deliberately search for continuously steeper/more slippery patches and grit the teeth n push the board, give it a chance to show it's edge hold capacity by tilting. Some boards which were slipping when ridden timidly suddenly show reliable edge hold (others keep slipping ).
> 
> IDK your set-up. I prefer stiffer boots n bindings to get more response/pressure transmission, but if you're able to push n tilt in soft snow, you should also be able to do so in hardpack. Keep edges sharp and increase fwd lean on high-back to get more leverage on backside turns. And ride determined


^this...and you have to ride more dynamically, make edge transitions in a deliberate manner and make them more frequently to control speed. Or let the board run and learn to embrace the speed.



Varza said:


> We're spoiled brats. OP is from the Ice Coast. They don't get a choice, unless it's "don't be a snowboarder".
> 
> As has been said, cambered board, sharp edges. If you MADE ME ride the Ice Coast I'd bring my Arbor camber board and have it edge tuned for the trip.
> 
> ...


Varza, U up at Bakes on Sat? It wasn't hard hard boiler plate but definitely hard and smooth (no corduroy) with a bit of dust on crust...really fast groomers. Only wiped out once while letting the board run abt 45mph, hit a small bump, caught some air and lost the toeside edge due to getting the board too transverse which resulted in a good long belly slide.

Anyway, OP its kind of counter intuitive to let the board run and keep its nose at the most 45 degrees (preferably much less than 45 degrees) of the fall line...that way at least you have some control even though you are flying...but you have to be dynamic, with quick edge transitions and be mentally ahead of the ride. You also got to have the right tool/board a stiff cambered board, sharp edges and a torsionally stiff; along with stiff bindings and boots. Idk that it is harder to ride these conditions, but you have to have confidence in your skills, confidence in the board and embrace flying down the hill. Btw its taken me many years.


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## SlvrDragon50 (Mar 25, 2017)

Varza said:


> We're spoiled brats. OP is from the Ice Coast. They don't get a choice, unless it's "don't be a snowboarder".
> 
> As has been said, cambered board, sharp edges. If you MADE ME ride the Ice Coast I'd bring my Arbor camber board and have it edge tuned for the trip.
> 
> ...


Tooooo true on the impact gear. My friends think it's being a wimp, but I don't see any reason to lose the gear if it doesn't affect me negatively in any way besides maybe taking 5 more minutes to get ready. The only time I skip gear is if it's a ton of powder where the chances of injury are a lot less than riding on ice.


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## Varza (Jan 6, 2013)

wrathfuldeity said:


> ^this...and you have to ride more dynamically, make edge transitions in a deliberate manner and make them more frequently to control speed. Or let the board run and learn to embrace the speed.
> 
> 
> 
> Varza, U up at Bakes on Sat? It wasn't hard hard boiler plate but definitely hard and smooth (no corduroy) with a bit of dust on crust...really fast groomers. Only wiped out once while letting the board run abt 45mph, hit a small bump, caught some air and lost the toeside edge due to getting the board too transverse which resulted in a good long belly slide.


Was up there Sat, yeah. Groomers were ok, but I went off-piste a few times and eugh! Looked nice, white and smooth, was hard. The ball bearings in the morning were no fun either. I wasn't going that fast so I was able to land all the inadvertent airs. 

Morning corduroy was hard  I was on the first chair 7. It got nicer as the day wore on.


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## Nocturnal7x (Mar 6, 2015)

SO, idk if it was because I had a season of snowboarding in my muscle memory, or the fact that I swapped out my bindings for something stiffer, but I went out yesterday in the worst conditions I've ever seen. The mountain was a skating rink, no joke. I felt fine though, I was able to keep up with the skiers I typically have trouble keeping up with. I even went down some steeper terrain, the conditions were so much worse on them than I thought, like snowboarding down a hockey rink, some places looked like water had pooled then froze lol. Did fine though.

Oh, and it was raining! Fun! My buddy was super intent on going since he had to use a vacation day. Anyway, I think I can say this is no longer and issue for me 

Thanks guys!


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## Fielding (Feb 15, 2015)

Let me add: sharp edges don’t just mean new edges. Not in the east USA. Most new edges are 90 degrees. That’s a 0 base and 0 side. That’s firm but not sharp. Ride a lot of ice? Maybe lift the base by .5. Then file in the side by 1. Now you have some bite at 88.5. That’s appropriate for soft boots on ice. (Have someone who does this or a pro help. You’ll f your board with that Dakine edge kit.) Once you have it you have to learn to use it. Stacking your weight over an edge on ice is an art. To get there you have to learn that the gear works and that your edge will hold. Once you trust the edge hold you can make things happen. The hard part is that when most people detect ice they immediately want to stop by using an over rotated turn. They try to skid stop and nothing is there. They wanna hit the brakes pronto. But eheees just a scraping sound. Panic! Then, when that skid turn doesn’t work like it usually does, they get real stiff. They stand up super straight, lock their knees, and get freaked out. Then they often fall because they stop engaging with their board. They give up. Falling on ice sucks. The best thing you can do on ice is plant an edge. Your uphill edge, duh. Work the edge from the nose to the tail. Bleed speed with TURN SHAPE not skids or over rotations. Turn it way across the fall line and uphill even. Then swing it back around. There will be speed. That’s ok. You can control this situation. Make sure you are half drunk. Wear wrist guards and maybe a dental dam. Light some votive candles. Etc.


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## spino (Jan 8, 2013)

Fielding said:


> Let me add: sharp edges don’t just mean new edges. Not in the east USA. Most new edges are 90 degrees. That’s a 0 base and 0 side. That’s firm but not sharp. Ride a lot of ice? Maybe lift the base by .5. Then file in the side by 1. Now you have some bite at 88.5. That’s appropriate for soft boots on ice. (Have someone who does this or a pro help. You’ll f your board with that Dakine edge kit.) Once you have it you have to learn to use it. Stacking your weight over an edge on ice is an art. To get there you have to learn that the gear works and that your edge will hold. Once you trust the edge hold you can make things happen. The hard part is that when most people detect ice they immediately want to stop by using an over rotated turn. They try to skid stop and nothing is there. They wanna hit the brakes pronto. But eheees just a scraping sound. Panic! Then, when that skid turn doesn’t work like it usually does, they get real stiff. They stand up super straight, lock their knees, and get freaked out. Then they often fall because they stop engaging with their board. They give up. Falling on ice sucks. The best thing you can do on ice is plant an edge. Your uphill edge, duh. Work the edge from the nose to the tail. Bleed speed with TURN SHAPE not skids or over rotations. Turn it way across the fall line and uphill even. Then swing it back around. There will be speed. That’s ok. You can control this situation. Make sure you are half drunk. Wear wrist guards and maybe a dental dam. Light some votive candles. Etc.


just a note: if you get 1 degree side bevel and .5 base the edges will be 89.5, not 88.5 (but maybe you just mistyped?)


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## Fielding (Feb 15, 2015)

spino said:


> Fielding said:
> 
> 
> > Let me add: sharp edges don’t just mean new edges. Not in the east USA. Most new edges are 90 degrees. That’s a 0 base and 0 side. That’s firm but not sharp. Ride a lot of ice? Maybe lift the base by .5. Then file in the side by 1. Now you have some bite at 88.5. That’s appropriate for soft boots on ice. (Have someone who does this or a pro help. You’ll f your board with that Dakine edge kit.) Once you have it you have to learn to use it. Stacking your weight over an edge on ice is an art. To get there you have to learn that the gear works and that your edge will hold. Once you trust the edge hold you can make things happen. The hard part is that when most people detect ice they immediately want to stop by using an over rotated turn. They try to skid stop and nothing is there. They wanna hit the brakes pronto. But eheees just a scraping sound. Panic! Then, when that skid turn doesn’t work like it usually does, they get real stiff. They stand up super straight, lock their knees, and get freaked out. Then they often fall because they stop engaging with their board. They give up. Falling on ice sucks. The best thing you can do on ice is plant an edge. Your uphill edge, duh. Work the edge from the nose to the tail. Bleed speed with TURN SHAPE not skids or over rotations. Turn it way across the fall line and uphill even. Then swing it back around. There will be speed. That’s ok. You can control this situation. Make sure you are half drunk. Wear wrist guards and maybe a dental dam. Light some votive candles. Etc.
> ...


Drunk typing/math. Thankfully wasn’t going at a board with a file at the time. Coulda been ugly. But I stand by 1 on side and .5 on bass for a soft carver.


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## Pointy Deity (Dec 12, 2014)

Any advice for riding steep, icy moguls? I've been having trouble with this lately, heelside and toeside (but worse heelside). Maybe I just need my edges sharpened again. Anything smooth is no problem and I'm fine on icy black moguls, but can't seem to stay upright on bumpy double blacks. Riding an NS Insta/Gator with Now Drive bindings.


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## Phedder (Sep 13, 2014)

Pointy Deity said:


> Any advice for riding steep, icy moguls? I've been having trouble with this lately, heelside and toeside (but worse heelside). Maybe I just need my edges sharpened again. Anything smooth is no problem and I'm fine on icy black moguls, but can't seem to stay upright on bumpy double blacks. Riding an NS Insta/Gator with Now Drive bindings.


Higher edge angle = better grip. Chances are you're being timid on the more difficult terrain so allowing the board to slide at a lower edge angle rather than try to tilt the board more and engage and keep your edge through the turns.


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## jesboogie (Oct 26, 2014)

IMHO, riding ICE groomers will reveal all of your faults and lazy habits as a boarder (kind of like driving in the rain) I personally love it, as you normally have the slopes to yourself, along with some other crazy skiiers. Stay stacked on your board, and CARVE those turns. The sound cutting a good C turn on the ice is exquisite. The speed can be scary at times but I feel that rush deep down, knowing that a half ass chicken stuff turn will send me down into the ice grater. When it comes to your set up, I wouldn't sweat it too much. Its mostly the Indian, and not the arrow. Cheers JD


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## chomps1211 (Mar 30, 2011)

Nocturnal7x said:


> *SO, idk if it was because I had a season of snowboarding in my muscle memory,*


^Yes!!^
…almost certainly!



Nocturnal7x said:


> *...or the fact that I swapped out my bindings for something stiffer,* but I went out yesterday in the worst conditions I've ever seen. The mountain was a skating rink, no joke.


^Yup!!^ Very probably helped also,... 



Nocturnal7x said:


> …..I felt fine though, I was able to keep up with the skiers I typically have trouble keeping up with. I even went down some steeper terrain, the conditions were so much worse on them than I thought,…
> 
> Oh, and it was raining! Fun! My buddy was super intent on going since he had to use a vacation day. Anyway, I think I can say this is no longer and issue for me
> 
> Thanks guys!


I took my first lesson on boilerplate conditions like that! My two *WORST,.. most painful slams* happened on my first two outings, also on bulletproof ice! With _*No* skillz,…_ in Sloppy, ill fitting rental boots & bindings, limp as a d#%* rental board etc, etc!! 

Needless to say, after _that_ experience,.. whenever it got hard & icy out,.. which *never* happens here in MI, right??  :laugh: I was one _TIMID_ assed muther f*%#r whenever conditions got like that!!


But just this weekend, I had a similar experience to yours here in northern MI. Sunday @ Boyne Highlands was probably *the* worst hard ice conditions I have seen in years! 

The TL;DR version is,… instead of riding my usual cRc Proto, I had my 7 year old, 163W, full camber, Arbor Roundhouse. Newly fitted out with better, properly adjusted/centered bindings. Wearing better fitting, stiffer boots also,.. _...AND_ with 6 more years of riding experience under my belt!

Conditions sucked soooo bad, I _seriously_ considered just quitting after my first two runs, but I was afraid of the non stop BS and taunting I would have to endure from my SBF compadres when they saw that I had wussed out like that on Trace! :embarrased1: :lol:

So Instead, I decided to stick it out for another couple of runs and in the process I remembered the advice I'd gotten from SBF members like @neni, @wrathfuldeity, @Argo, TT, BA, and many, many others here who've repeatedly said "You have to trust your boards edges and ride more _Aggressively_ on ice!"

I discovered, As you no doubt have,… that this is easier said than done until you've acquired a little experience/skill and/or confidence to NOT wuss out and ride so timidly in icy conditions!

I actually stayed a good part of the day Sunday. The conditions didn't improve at all that day. Not the ice, the wind, the flat light,.. nothing! The only thing that improved was *My* ability & confidence to ride it!!! 









I grudgingly admit,… I even started to have fun riding in such crummy conditions. :blink: :grin:

I am much better at making/transitioning turns without having to always skid & throw the tail around,.. Once I began to trust my edge to hold, and know that I could ride faster and still trust the board to turn using the camber & sidecut, instead of slip sliding around! The ice stopped being quite so scary!! 

Now I'm not saying I _want,_ or will look forward to riding shit like that! But it is nice to know that it doesn't necessarily have to ruin my day of fun on the slopes!!!

I *Never* would have believed it possible that I would ever say that about a shit condition day like Sunday!!! :shrug: :cheer:


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## pow247 (Mar 27, 2018)

Had this same thing happen to me the other day. I even had to go back over to the beginner runs because I just wasn't used to the conditions.

Really that's all you have to do. Just work your way up and get used to snowboarding in different conditions. I know it doesn't help much when getting a new board also but we can't control the weather.

I recommend the impact gear also. I definitely use it when there is no powder and a lot of ice. It doesn't hurt to even have it when you are trying new stuff.

Hope you find a better day to try out your new board


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## Fielding (Feb 15, 2015)

[email protected] said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong but it's my understanding that a 1 degree base edge bevel with a 1 degree side edge bevel produces a 90 degree edge? When we want our edges to cut into ice better we look to create an effective edge angle less than 90 degrees. Am I understanding this right?


Minus 1 on base and minus 1 on side keeps you at 90 degrees but now the edge is lifted up from the base. The board should be less catchy. You’ll have to tip it more in order to engage the edge. This probably isn’t what you want for hardcore ice. 

Assuming your board, boots, and bindings are stiff enough to allow you engage or lift the length of the edges with some precision, you might want to take nothing at all or maybe just .25 off the base edge and then take a 1 or a 1.5 off the side edge. Having an acute angle that isn’t lifted much can be very catchy if you are used to it. You might want to detune just a little bit at the edges of the contact points.

The thing about messing with your base edge is that if you lift it too far you’ll make a board that’s really hard to engage. By that i mean you’d have to tip it way up high in order to use the edge. Nice for landing a jump in soft snow or for Park activities. Not so nice for big turns on hardpack snow. If you take too much off the base then you’re gonna need a base grind at the shop to get the board back to right. Side edges are more forgiving. You could do a -3 and then if you didn’t like it most boards have enough metal on the edge that you could still get back to -1 before you’re edge is too thin to work on.


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## redlude97 (Jan 9, 2008)

On my all mountain cambered boards I go 1 degree on the base and 88 on the side for an 89 degree angle that is slightly lifted. Combined with a bit of rocker and detuned nose and tail to the contact points makes for a very catch free responsive board good both in the park and sidehits as well as charging


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