# If Jay gets so much snow why do they make it? Jay snowfall skepticism



## IanL (Mar 30, 2021)

What do I mean? Well, I just saw a resort in the midwest called Mt Bohemia that gets 250-300 inches of snow and they don't make snow. That's less than what Jay peak claims but Jay makes snow. Then Lookout pass in Idaho claims 350+ which is like Jay and they don't make snow. So what would Jay be like if they didn't make snow? 

I believe Jay gets the most snow in NE but have doubts about how much. I remember the end of last season they had claimed close to 300" or so but their base wasn't much different than Stowe, Smuggs or Cannon where I worked and I didn't get that. Like if you had 300" of snow why do you have a 20-30" base?

Like where did all the snow go? 

I've done most of all my snowboarding out west but am originally from the northeast. And I had passes for many years to mts in the west that claimed they got around 250" a season and good seasons had 100+ inches of base. Worked on Mt Hood at Meadows who claims 400+ inches which isn't that much more than Jay but you can see a big difference mid-season just driving there because the snowbanks are super high (like one step down from Baker) and I don't think that is the case for Jay.

Yes I've been to Jay. To me it seems like they and other resorts need a visible stake for new snow _and_ another for total base depth. If I end up moving to that area which I've thought of I might set up my own secret stake in the woods there.


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## lab49232 (Sep 13, 2011)

Ummmm if you've spent time and worked at all these resorts there should be a number of clear answers to your question. Have you seen Loveland or A-Basin? They average 350 and 400" per year respectively and have HEAVY snowmaking that they run for months.... Some factors you seem to have missed, I'll reference Meadows a lot since you apparently worked there

1: Does it get cold enough early to make snow and speed up opening? Mt Hood Meadows for example if it's cold enough to snow, it probably already is snowing. It's rarely both cold enough to make snow while there still being a lack of snow so Meadows has extremely minimal snow making.

2: Is the snow always reliable or does it need a backup plan for dry periods. Lots of snow and consistent snow are two VERY different things

2: What type of snow is it, because snow condenses differently. Mt Hood gets Cascade concrete, the snow falls heavy and dense and doesn't compact much. 1 foot of snow there is gonna go down to maybe 7-8". Now say it snows a foot at Jay on a day it's below zero Fahrenheit, a regular occurance, that snow is so light and dry it is easily blown away and compresses to sometimes as low as 2-3"

3: How many sunny days, when it snows is it constant regular snow or single dumps.

This is a prime example where I encourage people to go "if you think something is a lie or doesn't make sense, go research actual information before drawing conclusions because there's a good chance you're just not as informed as you think you are".


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## Rip154 (Sep 23, 2017)

Because Jay Peak can afford it.


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## easyrider16 (Sep 28, 2020)

uh... yeah they do


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## phillyphan (Sep 22, 2016)

Never been to Colorado I guess


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## IanL (Mar 30, 2021)

phillyphan said:


> Never been to Colorado I guess



Wolf creek
Telluride
Crested Butte


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## IanL (Mar 30, 2021)

lab49232 said:


> Ummmm... because there's a good chance you're just not as informed as you think you are"


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## Mike256 (Oct 13, 2013)

lab49232 said:


> This is a prime example where I encourage people to go "if you think something is a lie or doesn't make sense, go research actual information before drawing conclusions because there's a good chance you're just not as informed as you think you are".


This of course does not apply to whistler snow reports though


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## IanL (Mar 30, 2021)

lab49232 said:


> Ummmm if you've spent time and worked at all these resorts there should be a number of clear answers to your question... Some factors you seem to have missed, I'll reference Meadows a lot since you apparently worked there


This is a dickhead response, but this is all you got? I actually spent most of my time snowboarding in the southwest where there is no "cascade cement". At AZ snowbowl (where they say they got 250" a year) on good years they would state that they had 100+ inch bases at midmountain.


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## Crusty (Nov 8, 2018)

Read lab's reply again. He nailed it. 

Snowmaking is a must for any resort in the East that wants to draw customers and stay in business. It makes up for the wildly variable snowfall around here. More importantly, it establishes your base. This extends your season greatly (early and late), keeps your trail count high, and keeps trail conditions much better all around. Basically, if they didn't have snowmaking they'd open a month later, close a month earlier, and on most days (without storms) you'd be dodging rocks to turn on ice. Which doesn't really sell tickets, which doesn't bring families to stay in your hotels, eat at your restaurants, and swim in your waterpark. 

Are they optimistic with snowfall reports? Sure. Just like every other mountain ever. Are they in a quirky little weather region that gets more snow? Yup. This area is full of them. Look at the convergence of weather patterns that give Mt Washington it's crazy climate. Jay is in them as well, with a little more arctic influence. Have they built a reputation through cleverly marketing that fact? Absolutely. Why wouldn't they?

Besides, do you think they'd spend a couple million dollars a year to make snow if it didn't yield returns?


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## Crusty (Nov 8, 2018)

Rip154 said:


> Because Jay Peak can't afford not to.


Fixed that for ya.

You know they are in federal receivership, no?


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## IanL (Mar 30, 2021)

Crusty said:


> Read lab's reply again. He nailed it.


Ski areas near Mt Washington don't claim anything like the snowfall totals Jay does. Mt. Washington claims less than Jay. No one nailed it. You seemed to miss the point. The point is if Jay really gets that much snow as they say and boast then why do they have to make it? And what explains how other western resorts that get similar amounts seem to maintain a deeper base?


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## Phedder (Sep 13, 2014)

IanL said:


> Ski areas near Mt Washington don't claim anything like the snowfall totals Jay does. Mt. Washington claims less than Jay. No one nailed it. You seemed to miss the point. The point is if Jay really gets that much snow as they say and boast then why do they have to make it? And what explains how other western resorts that get similar amounts seem to maintain a deeper base?


Now you're being ignorant *and* obstinate, not a good combo. 

Read labs reply again, for a third time. 

High moisture content snow (like the PNW gets) packs down densely. 12" of snow could pack down to 7-8", as he said. That type of snow allows a resort to keep a deeper base, because when packed down there's simply more of it remaining. Somewhere colder, that gets lighter and dryer snow with a much lower moisture content, will pack down to much less. So that same 12" of snow that fell, could pack down to as little as 2-3", as he said. 

So over the season for two different resorts, high moisture content snowfall of 300" and a 150" base. Low moisture content snowfall of 300" and a 50" base. Is this making any sense to you yet?


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## smellysell (Oct 29, 2018)

Trolls gonna troll


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## suntaimatty (May 23, 2021)

Jay has been open since Nov. 26th. Lookout pass and Mt Bohemia will be another week or longer before they open. Lookout's webcam looks like fall still. What's up with that!? 

Yes all ski resorts overstate their snow totals but Jay gets a lot of snow. They also lose a lot with wind, long thaws etc.. therefore they make snow to enhance and extend the season. 

What's so hard to understand?


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## Rip154 (Sep 23, 2017)

Crusty said:


> Fixed that for ya.
> 
> You know they are in federal receivership, no?


No idea Only been there once, but someone sure spent money on that place, so I figured they had some.


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## Crusty (Nov 8, 2018)

IanL said:


> You seemed to miss the point. The point is if Jay really gets that much snow as they say and boast then why do they have to make it?


No, I completely answered your question. You have an obvious bias and seem to dismiss anything that doesn't confirm it. Here's a hint. They are a business. Their decisions are all based from the standpoint of making money. 

Now if you really care, and aren't just soapboxing, read lab's post and my post again. Slowly.


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## Crusty (Nov 8, 2018)

Rip154 said:


> No idea Only been there once, but someone sure spent money on that place, so I figured they had some.


Oh someone spent money alright, just not their own. Crazy story.









A ski resort, a dream and greed: How a $350M fraud happened in Vermont’s poorest region


Former Jay Peak President Bill Stenger was sentenced last week to 18 months in prison. Here's our in-depth piece on how it all began.




www.burlingtonfreepress.com


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## Rip154 (Sep 23, 2017)

Crusty said:


> Oh someone spent money alright, just not their own. Crazy story.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ah, seen similar cases, but that one was a proper mess. At least there's some value left, and they didn't run off with the money up front.


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## lab49232 (Sep 13, 2011)

IanL said:


> This is a dickhead response, but this is all you got? I actually spent most of my time snowboarding in the southwest where there is no "cascade cement". At AZ snowbowl (where they say they got 250" a year) on good years they would state that they had 100+ inch bases at midmountain.


There are two types of people in the world:

Those who go "I don't get how thats possible so it must be a lie"

And those who go "I don't get how that's possible, I need to go learn some things" 

If you're just confused or didn't understand one of the explanations and genuinely want to learn what you're apparently not aware of, feel free to explain what didn't make sense. If you're just trying to take the anti-vax mindset of uninformed and thus must be a lie, well then the answers have been provided and the conversation is over.


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## Elevation212 (Apr 21, 2019)

I ride Jay a lot and have always been slayed with snow mid season, that said early season and spring are getting warmer and warmer. Snow making to me is critical in the days of climate change to get something going by thanksgiving break


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## ridethecliche (Feb 27, 2019)

Man, I love how this goober just looks at totals and geography and lacks any knowledge about how to search out any real additional info. 

The Jay cloud is real. I've spent a couple of weeks there total and it's not at all unusual for them to pick up a a few inches here and there that forecasts never called predicted. That's what happens when the air streams come together in a place with the highest elevation of anything around. 

On the flip side, Jay gets a lot of wind holds. It's not at all uncommon for them to have only a few lifts running for an entire weekend because it's unsafe to run the tram or some of the more exposed lifts. 

It also gets really freaking cold because of the location and the wind. Jay can be absolutely brutal, but they absolutely get a ton of snow. Much more so than others around them, Burke included and that's just like 30 mins away.


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## SEWiShred (Jan 19, 2019)

Snow making is an amazing feat of science that allows us to enjoy our hobby earlier and later in the year, giving us a longer season. I don't care how much a place gets each year of natural snow, winter can be back-loaded and all the snow could come in February, it could be a warm spring. Being able to make snow means you get a long season. If it's a region that gets a lot of natural snowfall, snow making is just insurance they can open up early enough in the year. Considering Christmas holiday is an extremely busy time for ski resorts, it's extremely important from a business perspective for them to be open and in great shape by that time. A lot of resorts, especially smaller ones, depend almost entirely on Christmas break to be profitable or not. I know where I'm at that's exactly how it is, they have Christmas, President's Day, and MLK Jr day to have huge crowds to make most of their money and the rest of the season is them skating by on season pass holders, low volume ticket sales, and group sales.

Man made snow technology and grooming technology has improved a lot over the years, it can be extremely good if there is a skilled snow making team with state of the art groomers.


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## Elevation212 (Apr 21, 2019)

ridethecliche said:


> Man, I love how this goober just looks at totals and geography and lacks any knowledge about how to search out any real additional info.
> 
> The Jay cloud is real. I've spent a couple of weeks there total and it's not at all unusual for them to pick up a a few inches here and there that forecasts never called predicted. That's what happens when the air streams come together in a place with the highest elevation of anything around.
> 
> ...


ye me and my buds call our MLK weekend the 13s, 13 inches of snow, 13 mile per hour wind, -13 degrees



































Our last trip, glades were epic but the temp was not for the faint of heart


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## ridethecliche (Feb 27, 2019)

Elevation212 said:


> ye me and my buds call our MLK weekend the 13s, 13 inches of snow, 13 mile per hour wind, -13 degrees
> 
> View attachment 160148
> 
> ...


You gonna be there this mlk weekend? We already have a place booked to go out!


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## Elevation212 (Apr 21, 2019)

ridethecliche said:


> You gonna be there this mlk weekend? We already have a place booked to go out!


Not this year, zoom boomed my way to Colorado, have fun and may the cloud fall heavily on you


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## IanL (Mar 30, 2021)

NOAA's snowfall total map puts Mt Washington in an area with more snow than Jay Peak. 








Maybe it's not very detailed but, I would think that map is from a more accurate source than Jay's. If you search the snowfall totals of towns near Jay, like Troy you'll find it gets 94 inches of snow annually which isn't that much more compared to other towns near ski areas and still less than some.


https://www.bestplaces.net/climate/city/vermont/north_troy


And if you compare snowfall there to Colebrook in northern NH with 103 inches.


https://www.bestplaces.net/climate/city/new_hampshire/colebrook


Colebrook is near the closed Balsams Wilderness ski area where they claimed 225 inches a season.

Franconia in NH (gets 79") near Cannon mt (which gets 160").


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## Elevation212 (Apr 21, 2019)

IanL said:


> NOAA's snowfall total map puts Mt Washington in an area with more snow than Jay Peak.
> View attachment 160155
> 
> Maybe it's not very detailed but, I would think that map is from a more accurate source than Jay's. If you search the snowfall totals of towns near Jay, like Troy you'll find it gets 94 inches of snow annually which isn't that much more compared to other towns near ski areas and still less than some.
> ...


is there a noaa station on Jay? The trick with Jay is that unlike Washington and the whites it’s a mountain that stands alone in large plains. So what happens is the moisture from lake Champlain follows the jet steam towards Quebec City Jay acts as the highest peak in between and catches alot of moisture in a micro climate which doesn’t effect the area around it typically.

Washington very well may get more snow as given it’s height it often has its own micro climate compared to the peaks around. I’ve been on hikes that have turned into hurricanes at the top and sunny if you drop 500-800 foot of elevation 

mountains and weather are weird man


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## IanL (Mar 30, 2021)

Rip154 said:


> Ah, seen similar cases, but that one was a proper mess. At least there's some value left, and they didn't run off with the money up front.


Oh yeah past corruption at Jay.


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## smellysell (Oct 29, 2018)

Elevation212 said:


> ye me and my buds call our MLK weekend the 13s, 13 inches of snow, 13 mile per hour wind, -13 degrees
> 
> View attachment 160148
> 
> ...


Rode in -30 here one day because the snow was so perfect. It was one run, then in to thaw out the goggles though. 😂


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## Elevation212 (Apr 21, 2019)

smellysell said:


> Rode in -30 here one day because the snow was so perfect. It was one run, then in to thaw out the goggles though. 😂


Done many of the stop ins, I could never figure out the balaclava and keeping mouth moisture out of my googles, instant ice, thus why I just went ice beard, surprisingly warm


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## ridethecliche (Feb 27, 2019)

@IanL , I have a solution for ya. Stay away. We won't miss ya.


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## Elevation212 (Apr 21, 2019)

lab49232 said:


> Ummmm if you've spent time and worked at all these resorts there should be a number of clear answers to your question. Have you seen Loveland or A-Basin? They average 350 and 400" per year respectively and have HEAVY snowmaking that they run for months.... Some factors you seem to have missed, I'll reference Meadows a lot since you apparently worked there
> 
> 1: Does it get cold enough early to make snow and speed up opening? Mt Hood Meadows for example if it's cold enough to snow, it probably already is snowing. It's rarely both cold enough to make snow while there still being a lack of snow so Meadows has extremely minimal snow making.
> 
> ...


Great point on the compression, I’ve had knee high mornings at Jay that are rutted out ice chutes by afternoon, crazy snow


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## bob2356 (Jul 13, 2012)

IanL said:


> What do I mean? Well, I just saw a resort in the midwest called Mt Bohemia that gets 250-300 inches of snow and they don't make snow. That's less than what Jay peak claims but Jay makes snow. Then Lookout pass in Idaho claims 350+ which is like Jay and they don't make snow. So what would Jay be like if they didn't make snow?
> 
> I believe Jay gets the most snow in NE but have doubts about how much. I remember the end of last season they had claimed close to 300" or so but their base wasn't much different than Stowe, Smuggs or Cannon where I worked and I didn't get that. Like if you had 300" of snow why do you have a 20-30" base?
> 
> ...



You can't be serious comparing the cascades weather to east coast weather. The east coast has huge freeze thaw cycles as arctic high pressure systems bring brutal cold then move off to park over Bermuda and pumps warm gulf air, frequently with rain, up into the north east. Maintaining snow pack in the east is a constant problem for every east coast ski area. The cascades have almost constant steady temps in a narrow range with the aleutian low parking itself in the mid Pacific and pumping westerlies right at the Cascades all winter dropping snow fall almost every day continually building the base. I lived in Zig Zag OR and Vermont so I am talking from experience

Hard to believe some on who claims to have worked in the ski industry doesn't know the difference between east coast and west coast/rockies snow conditions.


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## Snow Hound (Jul 21, 2012)

I've come across some strange conspiracy theories the last couple of years. This one is absolutely fascinating.


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## easyrider16 (Sep 28, 2020)

lab49232 said:


> There are two types of people in the world:
> 
> Those who go "I don't get how thats possible so it must be a lie"
> 
> ...


Agreed, and that first type is the sort who will go on the internet and cherry-pick everything that validates their ignorance, claim it as proof, and more staunchly adhere to it.


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## Bertrand (Nov 4, 2021)

Some cool historic data here





Jay Peak Snow History


Detailed Snow History for Jay Peak. Find historical snow depth, snow conditions, expected fresh snowfall and prevailing weather conditions from the past 11 years.




www.snow-forecast.com


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## Hurricane (Jan 5, 2010)

IanL said:


> What do I mean? Well, I just saw a resort in the midwest called Mt Bohemia that gets 250-300 inches of snow and they don't make snow.


 Mt. Bohemia is out on a peninsula in on Lake Superior and gets all lake effect snow that is why they get so much. Cool place but out in the middle of nowhere.


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## Rip154 (Sep 23, 2017)

Mt Bohemia has "Triple black diamond extreme backcountry" too, must be awesome.


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## Hurricane (Jan 5, 2010)

Yeah I've been there once it was really cool. They do not groom at all and claim experts only for everything, definitely not a place for beginners. Tons of tree riding and when I was there we had knee deep snow all over. It's really out in the middle of nowhere and there is very little options for lodging but it's really cheap and very challenging terrain.


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## lab49232 (Sep 13, 2011)

IanL said:


> NOAA's snowfall total map puts Mt Washington in an area with more snow than Jay Peak.
> View attachment 160155
> 
> Maybe it's not very detailed but, I would think that map is from a more accurate source than Jay's. If you search the snowfall totals of towns near Jay, like Troy you'll find it gets 94 inches of snow annually which isn't that much more compared to other towns near ski areas and still less than some.
> ...


Ya and Sandy Oregon get's about 20 inches of snow a year but Mt Hood Meadows, only a few miles up the road gets 400+, that must be a conspiracy too!

Ya we get it, you made up your mind before even posting here that Jay doesn't get a lot of snow and your question was rhetorical and you don't care to have the real answer explained to you.

You caught us there's a crazy global conspiracy that's literally trickled down all the way even through all the members of this forum even to make up fake news to explain the issues you have to try and promote Jay. Or.... OR maybe you're just not very informed about weather, topography and snow in general.


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## r79th (Jun 26, 2019)

My understanding has always been that east coast mountains at their lower elevations are subject to variable temps all winter, so the snow melts and rebuilds, leading to less base. Whereas western mountains extend to higher elevations reaching steadier climates with more consistent winter temps, so the snow sticks around longer and builds more base.

Then within that context, Jay has a bunch of unique geographic factors that create more snow in that specific location and elevation. So it’s subject to east conditions but powers through them differently due to its anomalies. Similar story with places like Mt. Washington, Katahdin, Marcy, etc with their unique elevations and whatnot.

I’m not any weather expert, maybe the above stuff is wrong, but that’s how it’s been explained to me over the years living in the Northeast. And with Jay I’ve definitely seen first hand the snow there being much better than the other major areas in Northern Vermont. Last season I was riding deep trees at Jay in April when nearby woods weren’t really even doable.


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## Scalpelman (Dec 5, 2017)

Bertrand said:


> Some cool historic data here
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Very cool link. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 16gkid (Dec 5, 2012)

Clearly you've never been to Mt. Bohemia, its a great place when theres snow and a place i would absolutely avoid if its been dry, because they cant/dont make snow they are at the mercy of mother nature, as of today theyre not even planning on opening until jan 1st, and their season has ended in march before.


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## Bertrand (Nov 4, 2021)

r79th said:


> My understanding has always been that east coast mountains at their lower elevations are subject to variable temps all winter, so the snow melts and rebuilds, leading to less base. Whereas western mountains extend to higher elevations reaching steadier climates with more consistent winter temps, so the snow sticks around longer and builds more base.
> 
> Then within that context, Jay has a bunch of unique geographic factors that create more snow in that specific location and elevation. So it’s subject to east conditions but powers through them differently due to its anomalies. Similar story with places like Mt. Washington, Katahdin, Marcy, etc with their unique elevations and whatnot.
> 
> I’m not any weather expert, maybe the above stuff is wrong, but that’s how it’s been explained to me over the years living in the Northeast. And with Jay I’ve definitely seen first hand the snow there being much better than the other major areas in Northern Vermont. Last season I was riding deep trees at Jay in April when nearby woods weren’t really even doable.


You know, reading this thread, I am beginning to question if there is snow somewhere or if it is just a myth invented by the elders.


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## DaveMcI (Aug 19, 2013)

That 12 year totals is cool. I spend a week at Jay every February, because it gets the most snow that month. I feel sciency now.


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