# heel side chatter on firm steeps



## jerry gnarcia

This probably isn't going to be too useful without being able to watch me ride, but thought I would throw this out there...

I've been riding for several years and seem to have developed a bad habit that punishes me on steeper hardpack.

Basically, almost no matter how steep a run is and how shitty the snow is, I can always cut a tight toeside turn around where I need to without worry and without really thinking about it. When I go heel side, if there is a decent layer of edge-able snow, I also don't really have a problem. But when it's firm, 2 things seem to happen.
One, my turns are lot wider and it takes a lot more vertical to get it around. I feel like I can go toe side on a dime, but going heel in those conditions takes a lot more room.
Two, my heel tends to slide much more and/or chatter and/or wash out.

Since I feel like I can steep fairly decently when there is a bit of snow (not even deep powder, just enough to sink an edge into), my theory is that I'm actually still doing it wrong in those conditions too, but the margin of error is bigger, so I get away with it and don't notice.

I've tried consciously thinking about what I'm doing differently in terms of body position and movement, but there's something that I'm doing naturally on the toe that I can't seem to replicate on the heel. The fact that I can do it on my toe tells me it isn't the board or the conditions.

Do those symptoms sound familiar? Any tips for what to focus on?


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## Oldman

Hey Jerry:

This a an issue that is common for many riders.

First off, your toes are able to give you far more "feedback" than your heels are ever going to be able to provide. So the amount of control is not ever going to be as "exact"

So, how to make it better?

Bend you knees more and make a conscious effort to keep your weight over your heel edge. So often heel side chatter is caused by trying to push the edge into the snow, but in fact you are pushing the edge "down" the fall line because you are leaning away from the edge and not on top of it.

Make the effort to get on top of your heel edge and see if that helps. Bend, bend and bend some more!


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## Kenai

jerry gnarcia said:


> This probably isn't going to be too useful without being able to watch me ride, but thought I would throw this out there...
> 
> I've been riding for several years and seem to have developed a bad habit that punishes me on steeper hardpack.
> 
> Basically, almost no matter how steep a run is and how shitty the snow is, I can always cut a tight toeside turn around where I need to without worry and without really thinking about it. When I go heel side, if there is a decent layer of edge-able snow, I also don't really have a problem. But when it's firm, 2 things seem to happen.
> One, my turns are lot wider and it takes a lot more vertical to get it around. I feel like I can go toe side on a dime, but going heel in those conditions takes a lot more room.
> Two, my heel tends to slide much more and/or chatter and/or wash out.
> 
> Since I feel like I can steep fairly decently when there is a bit of snow (not even deep powder, just enough to sink an edge into), my theory is that I'm actually still doing it wrong in those conditions too, but the margin of error is bigger, so I get away with it and don't notice.
> 
> I've tried consciously thinking about what I'm doing differently in terms of body position and movement, but something there's something that I'm doing naturally on the toe that I can't seem to replicate on the heel. The fact that I can do it on my toe tells me it isn't the board or the conditions.
> 
> Do those symptoms sound familiar? Any tips for what to focus on?


Bend your knees more. In firm or bumpy conditions when I have heel chatter on steeps I can nearly always stop it immediately by getting lower.


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## speedjason

Bend you knees and hip. You are probably riding too upright and too stiff.
Maybe adjust your high back for a bit more lean.


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## apt333

It's definitely fixable by bending your knees more. However that's easier said than done. I was getting low by not bending my knees enough, but compensating by bending over at my waist. That's a recipe for disaster. Back straight, knees bent is a must.

I did a month of squats and other riding related exercises before heading out to Solitude UT for 2 weeks. Still wasn't enough to get as low as a really good rider (see Ryan Knapton youtube for example). The only fix is to ride more, focus on it and welcome the burn. It does get better every day out. That said I will never to able to get a low as a strong younger rider, but I can hold my own.


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## jerry gnarcia

Appreciate the tips, but I'm fairly sure that lack of bending knees isn't what I'm doing wrong here. I bend quite a bit just to stop it from getting away from me completely, sometimes damn near squatting all the way down, which is too much bending. At that point, I think my bending is compensating for something else I'm doing wrong. My guess is either during turn initiation or body position/weighting. Maybe angulation? Dunno.


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## jerry gnarcia

apt333 said:


> It's definitely fixable by bending your knees more. However that's easier said than done. I was getting low by not bending my knees enough, but compensating by bending over at my waist. That's a recipe for disaster. Back straight, knees bent is a must.
> 
> I did a month of squats and other riding related exercises before heading out to Solitude UT for 2 weeks. Still wasn't enough to get as low as a really good rider (see Ryan Knapton youtube for example). The only fix is to ride more, focus on it and welcome the burn. It does get better every day out. That said I will never to able to get a low as a strong younger rider, but I can hold my own.


Ah, actually, you might be on to something with bending at the waist. So you want a straight back but bent knees? I bet I am bending forward more than I realize.

I've tried getting as low as possible, but maybe if I'm achieving that by bending knees and hunching forward, that could be undermining it. Makes sense too because I'm pretty straight going on the toe side, and keeping back straight would probably be similar.


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## Donutz

There are several different things that can cause this, none of which are mutually exclusive, so you could be doing all or some of them.

As mentioned above, body position is a big one. And bending your knees helps a lot.

But you may also be doing asymmetric turns. Nice, sweeping toeside turns, but sharp heelsides that are almost a braking maneuver. I do that because on heelsides I can see downhill and I have a fear of speed. So I try to get around quickly. I'm working on deliberately making my heelside turn wider, and when I do, I get no washout, but maybe a whimper or two.

Another possible issue is that you aren't shifting your weight the same way on heelsides. For a good sweeping carve, you start with your weight slightly forward, then shift your weight more towards your back foot to engage the entire edge. If, on your heelsides, you're keeping your weight forward (especially if you're also doing a sharper turn), you'll start to wash out. If you're also standing too tall, you won't be able to absorb that with knee flex, resulting in a chunk-chunk-chunk-buttplant maneuver.

What will help you the most is a lesson from a pro. What will help you almost as much is a video of your riding, either from a friend following you, or a camera on a pole. If you can _see_ what you're doing, you can correct it.


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## speedjason

Get some videos.


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## apt333

speedjason said:


> Get some videos.


Yeah Good call. Get someone to take some phone video of you. It will show what's happening. Your back should always be 90 degrees to the board - if you the board is on a 20% angle on a carve your spine should be at 20% - no more. My prob is that with the board at 20 or whatever my back in more due to bending at the waist. It shows up on video easily and you can adjust if that's the problem.

I ride alone a lot and have even put my phone in a tree with video on, hiked up 20-25 yards and taken a turn or two.


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## cliffjumper68

jerry gnarcia said:


> Ah, actually, you might be on to something with bending at the waist. So you want a straight back but bent knees? I bet I am bending forward more than I realize.
> 
> I've tried getting as low as possible, but maybe if I'm achieving that by bending knees and hunching forward, that could be undermining it. Makes sense too because I'm pretty straight going on the toe side, and keeping back straight would probably be similar.


Drill I have been working on that helps is doing ball rolls against a wall. Straight back with large ball positioned at tailbone, then lower using knees keeping ball rolling up spine. Its helped a lot, didn't realize I bent at waist as much as I was-


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## LALUNE

1. Bend your knees more. 
Not hunch your back but push your shin flex your ankle + bend your knee + shift your hip a touch forward towards the tip (which cannot be done unless your knees are bend) while still keep the center of gravity in the center of your board and get yourself closer to the board. This will be of tremendous help of absorbing the chattering and prevent you from washing out.

2. Lift your toe and dig your heel into the slopes.
People tend to initialize a heel turn by leaning towards the heel edge and use the highbacks to transmit the power. This is not wrong, but it will be more efficient if your ankles are engaged too.

3. Initialize your turn when your knees are most bended.
The easier way to switch edge will be switching when you unweight/extend/straight your body. But on steeper terrain this will cost your ability of chattering absorbing. Plus when you extend your legs during the turn, the power will decamber the board and make it a shaper turn.

A video would be very helpful too.


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## Flavor_James86

I have been having this same problem. There are even other posts with the same inquiry, so you are not alone! Everyone will say to bend those knees, like a squat. If you think like me, when you are told to squat you think of the weight lifting technique.. don't emulate that movement!! That brings your CG back especially when you are not on level ground. Which can cause washout. It's more like squatting down to do your business in the woods. 

I read on another thread where someone said try to touch your highbacks with your ass. I did that today and felt in much better control with less washout. I went up with a friend who has been riding for 20 years and he confirmed that they are two different movements. So try that, it will entail bending your knees but it also helps keep your weight over the board instead of 'sitting back'. 

I always felt like I was bending my knees. My quads would be on fire at the end of the day but always seemed to washout on steeper terrain. I'm still trying to figure it out but that visual really helped me wrap my head around what I was doing wrong.


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## freshy

jerry gnarcia said:


> Two, my heel tends to slide much more and/or chatter and/or wash out.


This makes me think you either have equipment issues like stiff bindings on a soft board, or a board too short for your weight, or a board way too soft.

Or perhaps your off with your technique? You shoulden't be sliding or skidding if you got your carves down. Or some mental block about not being able to see your edge on a heelside carve and having to trust the snowboard...Hard to explain but the same reason a heelside air in a halfpipe feels easier because your facing the middle of the pipe as opposed to a toe side air when your back is facing the middle of the pipe and you need to judge your timing without looking. If that makes any sense.

Whats your weight, board size/model, flex level and binding stiffness?

When I went from a stiff hard charger to a soft short fat I totally would wash out and chatter on hard pack because I was used to riding full tilt and aggressively railing turns, the softer board just needed to be ridden differently, more gingerly and more thought put into what I'm doing. Like you mentioned it only washed out in hard snow, I could rail the shit out of it in powder.


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## Radialhead

I had similar problems late in the afternoon on an increasingly icy indoor slope recently, when my legs were pretty shot. Cranking the highbacks forward sorted it. That was covering up for poor technique due to tiredness in my case, but maybe worth a try for you if it happens all the time & you don't use much forward lean?


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## neni

jerry gnarcia said:


> Ah, actually, you might be on to something with bending at the waist. So you want a straight back but bent knees? I bet I am bending forward more than I realize.


Yup, very likely. Bending low, but with butt sticking out, doesn't transver your weight on the edge. Resulting in this vvv as well



Donutz said:


> Another possible issue is that you aren't shifting your weight the same way on heelsides. For a good sweeping carve, you start with your weight slightly forward, then shift your weight more towards your back foot to engage the entire edge. If, on your heelsides, you're keeping your weight forward (especially if you're also doing a sharper turn), you'll start to wash out. If you're also standing too tall, you won't be able to absorb that with knee flex, resulting in a chunk-chunk-chunk-buttplant maneuver.



The bending and leaning into the heelside carve should transfer weight over edge, you should feel how your legs push against high backs. If your upper body leans forward, there's no proper weight on the edge. 
Concentrate on the alignment of your hips next time you try. Do it step by step. First on soft snow at _slow_ speed, rather upright, almost straight legged (this is just a interim step to get the butt sticking out out of your head... the legs will in the end be bent, but first do it rather straight to concentrate on the alignment of hip/upper body) and lean into the soft carve. Works? Add bit of speed AND bend of knees. Concentrate on leaning into the carve and not sticking butt out (no swiss army knife forward bend of upper body).


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## Rip154

Use your legs to absorb uneven terrain, not the board, and use both feet to dig the edges in. Go more fall line until you have a nice surface to shave off some speed, don't panic up and sideslip all the way down. Plan ahead in steps and take breaks to regain control.

Asym boards can help (different flex and sidecut on heelside), or adjusting your stance to get an even turn initiation heelside and toeside, usually around +21 to +27 on front foot.


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## Scalpelman

Rip154 said:


> Use your legs to absorb uneven terrain, not the board, and use both feet to dig the edges in. Go more fall line until you have a nice surface to shave off some speed, don't panic up and sideslip all the way down. Plan ahead in steps and take breaks to regain control.
> 
> Asym boards can help (different flex and sidecut on heelside), or adjusting your stance to get an even turn initiation heelside and toeside, usually around +21 to +27 on front foot.




Yup. On an aggressive board at high speed on hardpack or ice I feel that a +27 front foot helps me initiate with the forward heelside edge. Highback forward adjustment helps immensely. 

On hard conditions you need to be leaning forward. If you’re front leg is burning you’re good.


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## charliefreeman

Scalpelman said:


> Yup. On an aggressive board at high speed on hardpack or ice I feel that a +27 front foot helps me initiate with the forward heelside edge. Highback forward adjustment helps immensely.
> 
> On hard conditions you need to be leaning forward. If you’re front leg is burning you’re good.


So, if one sets the front foot around +27, where would you set the rear foot?


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## Rip154

Anything from +12 to -6 gets you within the usual stance ranges, depends what you're comfy with, maybe +6. Personally think +27 is a little too much, but it's been the sweetspot for many pros.


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## charliefreeman

I rode for years with something like +21/+9, worked pretty well with my board at the time (original LibTech TRice, 153), but the same setup on my new Rossi JibSaw was not working. Yes, I got some great edge hold, both toeside and heelside, but turn initiation really suffered. I just could not get that "dancing feet" thing going where I could pop loads of quick, tight turns. Changing to +18/-6 kept all the edge control and brought the dancing feet back.

Heelside carving is a challenge, but proper technique is paramount.


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## F1EA

I'm going to say it's this 1 thing, which happens to me all the time on steeper terrain for the first turn or two if I don't know what the snow is really like:

Look where you want to go. Heelside turns on steep hardpack you probably get distracted/not sure where exactly you can go and lock your view DOWN (towards the slope below you). Gotta align your head and shoulders to where you want to go...... which is a lot easier to do on toeside turns (heelside turns, this is kind of behind your front shoulder, so it's harder). What this does is it gets your body locked and stuck perpendicular to the fall line. You don't want that. Once I get going, it doesn't happen anymore because I know the conditions, so i have a better idea where I can really go and actually look that way.


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## Scalpelman

charliefreeman said:


> So, if one sets the front foot around +27, where would you set the rear foot?




I’m at +3on rear foot. But everyone is going to be different. More forward on MY back foot placed too much pressure on my front foot and caused pain. It’s something I just sorted out. There’s no magic number. The point was that forward stance helped me. I find that carving at speed on those conditions, toe comes naturally. Heelside I’m initiating front foot then concentrating on balancing my weight between feet throughout the turn.


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## Rip154

I find the front foot angle is easy to set just by feeling that you are in balance and not overrotating heelside or toeside. Back foot for me depends if I get any pain in the knee area, carving firm/icy snow can mean I want to narrow my stance a few degrees from pow stance. Try a bit back and forth, and go with whatever feels best. I have a park board set up with duckstance too, and if I'll ride switch alot and not just a random fakie run, I'll be on that one.


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## wrathfuldeity

freshy said:


> This makes me think you either have equipment issues like stiff bindings on a soft board, or a board too short for your weight, or a board way too soft.
> 
> Or perhaps your off with your technique? You shoulden't be sliding or skidding if you got your carves down. Or some mental block about not being able to see your edge on a heelside carve and having to trust the snowboard...Hard to explain but the same reason a heelside air in a halfpipe feels easier because your facing the middle of the pipe as opposed to a toe side air when your back is facing the middle of the pipe and you need to judge your timing without looking. If that makes any sense.
> 
> Whats your weight, board size/model, flex level and binding stiffness?
> 
> When I went from a* stiff hard charger to a soft short fat I totally would wash out *and chatter on hard pack because I was used to riding full tilt and aggressively railing turns, the softer board just needed to be ridden differently, more gingerly and more thought put into what I'm doing. Like you mentioned it only washed out in hard snow, I could rail the shit out of it in powder.





neni said:


> Yup, very likely. Bending low, but with butt sticking out, doesn't transver your weight on the edge. Resulting in this vvv as well
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The bending and leaning into the heelside carve should transfer weight over edge, you should feel how your legs push against high backs. If your upper body leans forward, there's no proper weight on the edge.
> Concentrate on the alignment of your hips next time you try. Do it step by step. First on soft snow at _slow_ speed, rather upright, almost straight legged (this is just a interim step to get the butt sticking out out of your head... the legs will in the end be bent, but first do it rather straight to *concentrate on the alignment of hip/upper body*) and lean into the soft carve. Works? Add bit of speed AND bend of knees. Concentrate on leaning into the carve and not sticking butt out (no swiss army knife forward bend of upper body).





F1EA said:


> I'm going to say it's this 1 thing, which happens to me all the time on steeper terrain for the first turn or two if I don't know what the snow is really like:
> 
> Look where you want to go. Heelside turns on steep hardpack you probably get distracted/not sure where exactly you can go and lock your view DOWN (towards the slope below you). *Gotta align your head and shoulders to where you want to go...... *which is a lot easier to do on toeside turns (heelside turns, this is kind of behind your front shoulder, so it's harder). What this does is it gets your body locked and stuck perpendicular to the fall line. You don't want that. Once I get going, it doesn't happen anymore because I know the conditions, so i have a better idea where I can really go and actually look that way.


So me thinks the bolded...is the main crux of the matter...besides perhaps fear and speed which results in fighting gravity...that further results in heel side chatter because you get too perpendicular to the fall line. So my recommendation is the following. 1. keep your leading shoulder pointed down the fall line. 2. dial back to a slightly easier slope and do cross under turns/carves. 3. Use a stiff cambered board with sharp edges.


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## MrDavey2Shoes

Weird that noone has asked, but what kind of steeps are we talking about? East Coast blacks/double blacks? Not much you can do on that kind of steep ice without a little bit of skid... 

Otherwise bend the knees and move your weight from the nose to tail as you come around.


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## F1EA

charliefreeman said:


> So, if one sets the front foot around +27, where would you set the rear foot?





Rip154 said:


> Anything from +12 to -6 gets you within the usual stance ranges, depends what you're comfy with, maybe +6. Personally think +27 is a little too much, but it's been the sweetspot for many pros.


I rode +27 +9 for a while. But now ride +25 +5 (or +24 +6 depending on the bindings) because it's a bit quicker/ more powerful edge to edge so better around trees and on more choppy tracked out stuff. Also, can't get +27 on EST bindings so I didn't want to use two different stances... But +27 +9 was definitely smoother. Anything more than +24 on the front will be a bit weird with a negative back foot unless you're really flexible.

But in any case, a stance will not 'correct' issues like what's been talked about here. In this case the biggest thing is likely overall body alignment on heelside turns...


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## speedjason

I notice I used to ride -18/+18 and my front knee would always get sore after a day.
Then I went back to -15/+18 and the soreness went away.


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## cutback

To beat the advice to death, in my case 90% of this issue on steeps was stiff legs and consciously keeping low and loose makes it go away. 

One thing I do is bounce slightly before the turn, particularly if starting from a stop. Just a inch or two of up and down gets your muscles untensed and makes you realize you don't need stiff legs to hold the edge, and that makes the turn a lot more relaxed and smooth when you do it.

Also, you tend to want to stop after a turn on steeps to control speed so you often try to do a hard hockey stop with stiff legs which makes thing worse. Try not to be so angled at the finish and tolerate some side slip as you finish the turn.


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## rhotax

Ok, now my turn 
Direction of pressure (push).
Why on toe edge (TE) it's easier.
First, let's take a look at this picture:








a) On TE it's easy to tilt board on almost 90 degree angle (alpha).Which is good for better egde hold.
b) on TE the distance, between center of mass (COM) and the point where the board contact with the snow is short (D, green). Which is good for better edge hold.
c) and finally, on TE direction of pressure/push (P, red) is - down. Straight to the snow. When you lower your position, when you bend your knees... you doing this straigth to the snow. So is your board - which is good for better edge hold.

But, on the heel edge (HE), if you want to tilt the board almost on 90 degree, the situation looks like this:








a) "D" is waaay much longer - which is bad for edge hold (and for balance of course),
b) if you bend your knees you pressure direction goes "down the hill" not into the snow. So you actually do what? YOU're PUSHING YOUR BOARD OF THE CARVING LINE. You're pushing board of - by force. And, in my opinion, that cause the chattering.

Now, people say "bend your knees". Let's take a look at this situation:








a) When you bend your knees - you loose the tilt angle - which is bad for edge hold, but
b) you get you COM closer to the board, and
c) you change direction of pressue more to the snow

I find that as the main cause of chattering in my case. To much force of pressure/push, directed down to the slope while it should be straight to the snow.
Where there is low speed it's fine, but when speed goes up, the force is to strong and the board just fight with that force and... lose (chattering).
No matter if I go down with my position or straight my legs up - this move, push of the board from the carving line.

Let's take a look at that drill by R. Knapton .If I will lower my position with such a dynamic move - It will push of my board from carving line (it will slip). That's because the "lowering position" it's not that obvious as they say.

But KOREANS will tell you! They give you very precis and detailed information how to lower you postion, how to apply pressure. And what's more - they will show you that, so you even don't have to know korean 
After that video I've started to watch only japanese and korean tutorials about how to carving on snowbard.


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## WigMar

rhotax said:


> But KOREANS will tell you! They give you very precis and detailed information how to lower you postion, how to apply pressure. And what's more - they will show you that, so you even don't have to know korean
> After that video I've started to watch only japanese and korean tutorials about how to carving on snowbard.


I'm always watching those videos with the translation subtitles on. You can catch enough of what they're saying and doing to make it useful.


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## supern00b

rhotax said:


> Ok, now my turn
> Direction of pressure (push).
> Why on toe edge (TE) it's easier.
> First, let's take a look at this picture:
> View attachment 157546
> 
> a) On TE it's easy to tilt board on almost 90 degree angle (alpha).Which is good for better egde hold.
> b) on TE the distance, between center of mass (COM) and the point where the board contact with the snow is short (D, green). Which is good for better edge hold.
> c) and finally, on TE direction of pressure/push (P, red) is - down. Straight to the snow. When you lower your position, when you bend your knees... you doing this straigth to the snow. So is your board - which is good for better edge hold.
> 
> But, on the heel edge (HE), if you want to tilt the board almost on 90 degree, the situation looks like this:
> View attachment 157547
> 
> a) "D" is waaay much longer - which is bad for edge hold (and for balance of course),
> b) if you bend your knees you pressure direction goes "down the hill" not into the snow. So you actually do what? YOU're PUSHING YOUR BOARD OF THE CARVING LINE. You're pushing board of - by force. And, in my opinion, that cause the chattering.
> 
> Now, people say "bend your knees". Let's take a look at this situation:
> View attachment 157548
> 
> a) When you bend your knees - you loose the tilt angle - which is bad for edge hold, but
> b) you get you COM closer to the board, and
> c) you change direction of pressue more to the snow
> 
> I find that as the main cause of chattering in my case. To much force of pressure/push, directed down to the slope while it should be straight to the snow.
> Where there is low speed it's fine, but when speed goes up, the force is to strong and the board just fight with that force and... lose (chattering).
> No matter if I go down with my position or straight my legs up - this move, push of the board from the carving line.
> 
> Let's take a look at that drill by R. Knapton .If I will lower my position with such a dynamic move - It will push of my board from carving line (it will slip). That's because the "lowering position" it's not that obvious as they say.
> 
> But KOREANS will tell you! They give you very precis and detailed information how to lower you postion, how to apply pressure. And what's more - they will show you that, so you even don't have to know korean
> After that video I've started to watch only japanese and korean tutorials about how to carving on snowbard.


Great reply, and thanks for the Korean vid. This is the rabbithole that I needed! Also, thanks for the hilarious new avatar.


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## masotime

I think the concept is similar to what @rhotax mentioned - but I've found this specific section by Xavier to be useful personally. The "tuck-in" seems spot-on and has helped reduce my heel-side chatter in the past.

(link should time jump to 2:25 in the video)


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## rhotax

For me, those two tutorials shows the most detailed and precise info about carving. And the english subtitles are by DEFAULT and seems to be more understandable than usual 








You can search his video with titles: class 2 or others if you want to learn more about his basic posture and so on.


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## rhotax

Oh! About "hillarious new avatar"  and Xavier's video posted above.
Let's talk about this picture:









It seems that his position is almost exact the same as the position that I drew on my second picture :> Right? The front leg is almost parallel to the ground. The COM looks like is far away from the edge of the board. Also, Xavier on his video, shows this position as a bad position, he tells to tuck and get close the butt to the board, right?

SO WHY IT WORKS? 
1. Why his butt don't drop on the ground? They will say, because there is centrifugal force, which push you outside the turn.
2. But when there's so much centrifugal force, that can make your body "levitate" over the ground and that force is directed - outside the turn - so why it don't push the board of the carving line?


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## masotime

rhotax said:


> 2. But when there's so much centrifugal force, that can make your body "levitate" over the ground and that force is directed - outside the turn - so why it don't push the board of the carving line?


What I've seen is that apparently it's the hand that's acting as a second pivot point - ref: 




"weight is actually balanced between my toe edge and my forearm"


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## BoardieK

masotime said:


> What I've seen is that apparently it's the hand that's acting as a second pivot point - ref:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "weight is actually balanced between my toe edge and my forearm"


In my opinion that is the worst skill in snowboarding. Any weight on the arm stops the board from being decambered thus ruining the turn radius and usually causing the edge to bounce out.

It is an advanced skill though, just not one I'm impressed by.


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## WigMar

masotime said:


> What I've seen is that apparently it's the hand that's acting as a second pivot point - ref:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "weight is actually balanced between my toe edge and my forearm"


For that laid out style of eurocarve, a fair amount of weight is on the forearm. You can see it in the trench his arm is leaving. In the heelside turn @rhotax pictured above, the hand is being used more for balance. There is some spray coming up around his hand, but there isn't all that much weight on it. Bending at the waist drives weight towards the edge and off of your hand. He's also reaching out towards his edge with his free hand. You can do heelside carves that are more laid out, but that puts more pressure on your hand and takes it away from the edge.


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## masotime

BoardieK said:


> stops the board from being decambered thus ruining the turn radius and usually causing the edge to bounce out.


Could you explain this a little more? I'm unfamiliar with the terms so it's a bit challenging for me to interpret.

My best read is that since "camber" is an upward curve in a snowboard (from the search I did), "decamber" sounds like you're trying to flatten it? My inference from that is that you need to flatten the board (bend it?) to create that turn radius? It also sounds like "causing the edge to bounce out" = chattering?


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## BoardieK

In a normal carve the snowboard is "decambered" by the force of the riders mass and so the board bends into a rockered shape.. The amount of decamber together with the angulation (angle of board to snow) will determine the radius of the carved turn.

In a balanced carve the resultant of all the forces will start from the Centre of Gravity and act in a line through the edge of the board in contact with the snow.

If a significant amount of weight is placed on an arm (eg during a "eurocarve") the resultant won't act through the edge any more so the board starts to "decamber" and increase the turn radius, this is usually very obvious in videos. You can also usually see the edge start to jump around a bit (note: this is completely different to heel side chatter in the original post). 

I'm not talking about the carves performed by riders in hard boots on narrow boards but about softboot riders on standard boards using their elbow.


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## masotime

BoardieK said:


> If a significant amount of weight is placed on an arm (eg during a "eurocarve") the resultant won't act through the edge any more so the board starts to "decamber" and increase the turn radius, this is usually very obvious in videos. You can also usually see the edge start to jump around a bit (note: this is completely different to heel side chatter in the original post).


Thank you for the explanation! Just wanted to clarify a bit more - you mentioned that it will "start to decamber" but based on your description of how the turn radius increases, what I visualize it as is the board becoming flatter. Did you mean to say it was being bent less, i.e. there's less forced change into a rocker shape so it is "flattening" or maybe "de-rocker"ing?


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## Donutz

I've worked on this issue all season this year, and I've finally conquered it. Although when I lose focus, I can still fall back into old habits.

For me, it was a combination of factors, including turning too sharply into the heelside turn, not being low enough (straight legs), and keeping my weight forward. I've had to erase each of these bad habits individually, but the result is that I can now do nice symmetrical carves all the way down the slope.

But the biggest helpful strategy is to work all this out on a slope that you're comfortable on, so you're not unconsciously going into panic mode, which results in straight legs.


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## rhotax

masotime said:


> What I've seen is that apparently it's the hand that's acting as a second pivot point - ref:


I think that my case (with attached picture) it's different than eurocarve.
I think in this type of carves:




they just slide the hand on the snow. Like... surfers "slide" the water with hands. They don't put the weight on that hand.
If he had put his weight on his hand, with that speed, I think it would break his fingers?
I think so, based on my personal experience  Some time ago, when I put my weight on that hand during heel turn (at some speed)...I felt like my arm was... ripped off and I injured my elbow


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## masotime

rhotax said:


> If he had put his weight on his hand, with that speed, I think it would break his fingers?


I agree - to be clear, I'm also puzzled by how to execute this, but I saw the eurocarve video by Malcolm so I thought I'd share it. I think it's dangerous to balance on your hand or even your arm, but at least for that video I posted, it's apparently the technique used.

If it isn't due to leaning on the snow with your arm / hand, I can only imagine that it's the momentum that's preventing a fall then, so the acceleration + current velocity means the resultant velocity vector is still down the slope rather than just falling onto the ground.


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## BoardieK

masotime said:


> Thank you for the explanation! Just wanted to clarify a bit more - you mentioned that it will "start to decamber" but based on your description of how the turn radius increases, what I visualize it as is the board becoming flatter. Did you mean to say it was being bent less, i.e. there's less forced change into a rocker shape so it is "flattening" or maybe "de-rocker"ing?


Yes you are correct, sorry for the wrong terminology.


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## Manicmouse

With those euro carves almost all the force is down on your edge so the hand or arm on the snow is barely holding any weight. I don't think it's that dangerous.


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## ZeMax

WigMar said:


> For that laid out style of eurocarve, a fair amount of weight is on the forearm. You can see it in the trench his arm is leaving. In the heelside turn @rhotax pictured above, the hand is being used more for balance. There is some spray coming up around his hand, but there isn't all that much weight on it. Bending at the waist drives weight towards the edge and off of your hand. He's also reaching out towards his edge with his free hand. You can do heelside carves that are more laid out, but that puts more pressure on your hand and takes it away from the edge.


If they have weight on their forearm they are not eurocarving.They're tripodding.


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## rhotax

Manicmouse said:


> With those euro carves almost all the force is down on your edge so the hand or arm on the snow is barely holding any weight. I don't think it's that dangerous.


And this is what I don't understand.If his whole body is perpendicularly to the board, so the direction of forces must be also perpendicularly to the board. So it should push the board out of turn and of the edge.
But, like you wrote "all the force is down on your edge", so where is this force coming from?








Where is that force (blue) that pushes the edge to the snow coming from?


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## masotime

ZeMax said:


> If they ave weight on their forearm they are not eurocarving.They're tripodding.


It sounds like you outright disagree with what the video (



) mentions then? In a similar vein to @rhotax's question - how does one stay balanced in that case since the weight vector doesn't appear to go through the edge? Is it really just momentum that keeps you from falling?


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## Yeahti87

rhotax said:


> And this is what I don't understand.If his whole body is perpendicularly to the board, so the direction of forces must be also perpendicularly to the board. So it should push the board out of turn and of the edge.
> But, like you wrote "all the force is down on your edge", so where is this force coming from?
> View attachment 158025
> 
> Where is that force (blue) that pushes the edge to the snow coming from?


This model is missing the velocity vector, the board being decambered having a sidecut (to a certain degree, without overpowering it) and the fact that the edge and base bevel is not 45/45 degree but between 87/1,5 to 90/0.
The max edge grip is closer to 45 than to 90 degree board tilt with the COM being as close to the edge as possible.

You need to create a scenario when all the forces still make it easier for the board to go along the metal edge than to let go and wash out or for you to fell on your back. Just like for a plane to overcome the gravity that works all the time and make it ‚easier’ to go up than down.

Euro carving on a regular board like Malcolm requires more finesse balancing of all these factors and still will never allow for as much performance as a BX board (I’ve tried SG Soul and Force and its easier to heelside carve these boards than any regular board due to the immense grip).

This Korean/Japaneese carving style is aimed at the style, not at the ‚performance’. Check Toyfilms and compare the heelside carves on regular carving boards like Korua when the tilt is close to 45 degree and the knees are bent to move the COM to the edge vs the same riders on the heelside carves on BX long EE long sidecut boards.


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## ZeMax

masotime said:


> It sounds like you outright disagree with what the video (
> 
> 
> 
> ) mentions then? In a similar vein to @rhotax's question - how does one stay balanced in that case since the weight vector doesn't appear to go through the edge? Is it really just momentum that keeps you from falling?


Oh yeah the guy is compensating for his poor edge hold by resting on his forearm, No way he could do it on the steep. The term Euro-Carve is being dropped very often in the softboot crowd without being the Euro type.

Look at this guy:




2:10 for linking turns





See how lightly he's touching the snow ? His snowboard is keeping his weight off the ground not his forearm.


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## ZeMax

Keep your weight of your limbs


Redirect Notice



If you are scratching your goggles you are low enough


Redirect Notice


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## Yeahti87

ZeMax said:


> Oh yeah the guy is compensating for his poor edge hold by resting on his forearm, No way he could do it on the steep. The term Euro-Carve is being dropped very often in the softboot crowd without being the Euro type.
> 
> Look at this guy:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2:10 for linking turns
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> See how lightly he's touching the snow ? His snowboard is keeping his weight off the ground not his forearm.


That’s a great vid I’ve used to get the grasp of the upper body motion. Just add the dorsiflexion to lower the board angle if you aren’t on a BX board. Just like Malcolm did there.
That’s the last part in the progression on a non-BX board.

Yet even this pro Russian Eurocarver, on a full carve set, with hard ++ angles, all set up for directional carving, while dropping his elbow down leaves a trail in the vid.

You can do it both hands - less single point pressure, less trail visible. Or lay on your side completely (only at steep ++ due to the pelvis movement restriction), leaving basically no trail because all the weight is dispersed over a larger surface, not just the elbow.

If hard booters barely touched the ground and didn’t put weight there, they wouldn’t use special sliders on the gloves and put a non-friction material on their elbows like Knapton. Barely touching the snow doesn’t rip your outfit.


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## rhotax

Yeahti87 said:


> This model is missing the velocity vector[..]


Could you please draw a sketch with all important vectors and where COM is located (when legs are almost parallel to the ground)?


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## Yeahti87

rhotax said:


> Could you please draw a sketch with all important vectors and where COM is located (when legs are almost parallel to the ground)?











Physics Of Snowboarding


The physics of snowboarding, with discussion on performance such as carving a turn and pumping a half-pipe.



www.real-world-physics-problems.com




The COM is located where you’ve shown that in your pics (around the belly button).


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## ZeMax

Yeahti87 said:


> That’s a great vid I’ve used to get the grasp of the upper body motion. Just add the dorsiflexion to lower the board angle if you aren’t on a BX board. Just like Malcolm did there.
> That’s the last part in the progression on a non-BX board.
> 
> Yet even this pro Russian Eurocarver, on a full carve set, with hard ++ angles, all set up for directional carving, while dropping his elbow down leaves a trail in the vid.
> 
> You can do it both hands - less single point pressure, less trail visible. Or lay on your side completely (only at steep ++ due to the pelvis movement restriction), leaving basically no trail because all the weight is dispersed over a larger surface, not just the elbow.
> 
> If hard booters barely touched the ground and didn’t put weight there, they wouldn’t use special sliders on the gloves and put a non-friction material on their elbows like Knapton. Barely touching the snow doesn’t rip your outfit.


I do not think BX Board aren't that great for carving.

Well touching the snow is a bad habit and fun at the same time, I used to get shit from my instructor all the time. Believe me snow is like sandpaper you do not need to put alot of pressure on it to grind through your gloves, pants, sleeves. Keep in mind, when on hardboot I touch the snow every single time I turn. Go low or go home. That's alot of cycles per day. It will wear out anything. Kinco glove are the best for this, the thick pig leather is great. If you want to keep your hand off the snow on the toe side your really have to lift the elbow high if you want to keep the hand hovering. Very unconfortable... excuses I know... Touching the ground is a fun thing to do when using proper form but it doesn't help. you but your wrist and elbow at risk on soft snow. If you use your hand to keep some of the weight of there no way you'll be linkin C shape turns on ice on a steep slope anyway.

If you go full on euro-carve like the Swoard guys you have to extended your arm if you want to get your shoulder out of the way, there's no way aroud it if you want to drag your armpit or reach with the goggles.Ah the French... what a crazy Bunch. 

I see you are in Poland. If I lived that close I would definatly go to one of the Swoard event, They're a great bunch and anti-tripod


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## rhotax

Yeahti87 said:


> Physics Of Snowboarding
> 
> 
> The physics of snowboarding, with discussion on performance such as carving a turn and pumping a half-pipe.
> 
> 
> 
> www.real-world-physics-problems.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The COM is located where you’ve shown that in your pics (around the belly button).


You've said before "The max edge grip is closer to 45 than to 90 degree board tilt with the *COM being as close to the edge as possible*." But when legs are almost parallel to the ground the COM is - *as far *to the edge *as possible?*. So it's seems to be the worst scenario for proper edge grip?


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## Yeahti87

rhotax said:


> You've said before "The max edge grip is closer to 45 than to 90 degree board tilt with the *COM being as close to the edge as possible*." But when legs are almost parallel to the ground the COM is - *as far *to the edge *as possible?*. So it's seems to be the worst scenario for proper edge grip?


If it is the worst - I cannot say. But no doubt it’s not optimal. If I test a board and want to check the grip, I push like that on the heelside edge and see at what point I wash out.

You cannot absorb uneven terrain on straight legs. You are on the verge of generating too much pressure on the edge so you wash out. Think about how you ride in truly icy conditions when the grip is limited. You need to fine tune the pressure on the edge during the turn much more and bent knees help with that.

Straight legs like that are for the style. And I don’t neglect the fact that these heelside turns look freakin awesome. I consider them the best looking ones.


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## Yeahti87

ZeMax said:


> I do not think BX Board aren't that great for carving.
> 
> Well touching the snow is a bad habit and fun at the same time, I used to get shit from my instructor all the time. Believe me snow is like sandpaper you do not need to put alot of pressure on it to grind through your gloves, pants, sleeves. Keep in mind, when on hardboot I touch the snow every single time I turn. Go low or go home. That's alot of cycles per day. It will wear out anything. Kinco glove are the best for this, the thick pig leather is great. If you want to keep your hand off the snow on the toe side your really have to lift the elbow high if you want to keep the hand hovering. Very unconfortable... excuses I know... Touching the ground is a fun thing to do when using proper form but it doesn't help. you but your wrist and elbow at risk on soft snow. If you use your hand to keep some of the weight of there no way you'll be linkin C shape turns on ice on a steep slope anyway.
> 
> If you go full on euro-carve like the Swoard guys you have to extended your arm if you want to get your shoulder out of the way, there's no way aroud it if you want to drag your armpit or reach with the goggles.Ah the French... what a crazy Bunch.
> 
> I see you are in Poland. If I lived that close I would definatly go to one of the Swoard event, They're a great bunch and anti-tripod


I agree that BX boards aren’t the best for freecarving but they still beat any mainstream all mountain carving board. I’m not talking about GS ‚monoski’ 15 m sidecut 210 mm waist 185 cm stuff for the Olympics.
Things like SG Soul (the only one I’ve tried, 2 buds own it), Donek Knapton Twins or Swoard/Virus have been created for euro carving.

Touching the snow and calling it a bad habit is subjective. The fact that a slalom instructor calls it bad from his point of view (and he’s right if we talk about a slalom technique), doesn’t change the fact that it’s Knapton, Slice and Dice Series by Nidecker, Korua guys, Tyler Chorlton and Asian surf carves getting more hype.

Snowboarding has many styles and hard booting isn’t the ultimate goal of a snowboarding progression. It’s only one of the possible ways of specialization.

It’s a very important question - is that given person really interested in eurocarving double diamond black icy slopes at speed linking perfect C turns and forgoing basically any other snowboarding aspect for it? Personally I prefer to keep it on mellower groomers without ski boots and work my way to throw stylish 180 and 360s on piste and off side hits in between what is usually called euro carving. To be honest I went from ++ last season back to a -9/+18 a month ago (++ occassionaly now) to work on my freestyle while still being able to lay it over and I haven’t had that much fun progressing (as my freestyle seriously lags behind carving) for a long time. But that’s me. There are some that have a different focus.
Different style targets.

I’ve torn brand new kevlar-reinforced Level Half Pipe Goretex and pretty much trashed my Ripstop (so one of the most durable) Volcom jacket over a single day trip eurocarving hard icy conditions. To be honest that was retarded of me. I agree that nothing can withstand this and I’m gonna grab another kevlar reinforced gloves that withhold anything but ice and another cheap pair of gloves from a military demo outlet if I had another retarded idea to do it on ice.

These Swoard events aren’t unfortunately that close to Poland. Moscow and Paris in France are pretty much the same distance from here and flying to Russia isn’t somehow as cheap as to Dubai


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## Scalpelman

masotime said:


> I think the concept is similar to what @rhotax mentioned - but I've found this specific section by Xavier to be useful personally. The "tuck-in" seems spot-on and has helped reduce my heel-side chatter in the past.
> 
> (link should time jump to 2:25 in the video)


I love watching and rewatching that one. It helped me a lot. I like style but for me performance rules the day. Layout carve, euro carve whatever you want to call it, is just style. No one would ever ride like that running down hairy lines. So to me that euro style is purely for making low angle riding fun.


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## rhotax

Personally, I don't like eurocarves. I don't like them... visually (?) 
When I see something like that:




I feel like I'm watching F-16 or Spitfire during Dog Figth  Dynamics, agreesion, tension and so on.
But when I see someone stretching to do eurocarve it's like watching...a frog flattened on the road by a car  Or some drunk drop flat on the floor 

Back on topic.
Here is something about chatter on heel side




Can anybody tell if he say anything new?
Or here





PS
And here is "eurocarve" used for fun


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## jsil

rhotax said:


> For me, those two tutorials shows the most detailed and precise info about carving. And the english subtitles are by DEFAULT and seems to be more understandable than usual
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You can search his video with titles: class 2 or others if you want to learn more about his basic posture and so on.


I've never seen a video describe the process so succinctly as these. Thank you for sharing.


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## MrDavey2Shoes

The most recent thing I’ve learned about really locking in a heelside on steeps is diving at the front heelside contact point while I’m still moving across the fall line at the end of a toeside.

It’s scary as hell the first few times because its basically throwing yourself down the mountain from where your board is - leaning down the fall line mountain before the direction change as im traveling horizontally at the completion of your toeside. Briefly my body is below my heelside edge.

works for me idk if it’s right. Feels amazing.


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## Donutz

MrDavey2Shoes said:


> The most recent thing I’ve learned about really locking in a heelside on steeps is diving at the front heelside contact point while I’m still moving across the fall line at the end of a toeside.
> 
> It’s scary as hell the first few times because its basically throwing yourself down the mountain from where your board is - leaning down the fall line mountain before the direction change as im traveling horizontally at the completion of your toeside. Briefly my body is below my heelside edge.
> 
> works for me idk if it’s right. Feels amazing.


That's what I find works as well. I think it may be (for me at least) a way to stop myself from being too backseat, and forcing my hips into the turn. I have a tendency to always face downhill, which I'm constantly fighting. If you think about that movement, you'd essentially be taking pressure off the front heelside contact point as you move into the turn.

Another thing I'm finding helps is going really low into the turn, then pressuring the edge by straightening my legs a little.

But the biggest issue I have is a tendency to turn heelside with a much tighter radius, which often turns into a skid.


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## supern00b

After some days riding and focusing mainly on heelside tech, what really helped me personally is prioritizing committing to looking over my shoulder in the direction of the turn FIRST, and then going through the rest of the body positioning of a heelside carve. If I was looking downhill during the toe to heel turn transition, it seemed to me that no matter what I did with the rest of my body, my heelside would always skid. 

I think by looking over my shoulder, my head naturally acts as the top of a joystick, moving towards the center of the turn radius, and initiating the body angulation required to more easily get on edge. This also signals my sense of balance to the rest of my body to the sensation of "falling" into the turn. Then, when I bend my knees and squat into the turn, the edge really bites, and the sensation of being on a rollercoaster begins.

Personally, a lot of my progression was in my own mind. I find that the mental level of "trust" in looking over my shoulder and down the expected turn radius vs downhill is akin to when you look 2-3 cars ahead of you when turning off a highway vs looking at the car directly in front of you; in my experience, doing the latter makes my steering throughout the turn much less smooth than the former. By looking 2-3 cars ahead, I am sort of "trusting" that my hands will follow my eyes throughout the turn, making for a very smooth turn. In my mind, my hands+steering wheel are similarly influenced by this mental "trust" as my body/balance+board.

By looking downhill/not committing to looking over my shoulder, the joystick would end up remaining more upright, which means less likelihood of the edge properly engaging with the same amount of effort.

re: skidding the turn due to tight radius, IME, it's from rushing past the rollercoaster-sensation phase of the turn, straight into the end of the turn due to not "trusting" the heelside falling sensation, which I alleviated by forcing myself to look in the direction of the turn. I had to tell myself to "wait" through the rollercoaster feeling which was uncomfortable at first, but the points I made above helped me get comfortable turning into the direction with less overall visibility.

I should also include that adding forward lean by a single notch helped a lot too.


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