# Moguls! I wish you a painful melt in summer!!



## HoboMaster (May 16, 2010)

No, their not. Snowboards simply do not work on moguls like skies do. The only way to navigate moguls on a board is to check your speed and basically navigate back and forth between the LOW spots in the humps. Imagine all the moguls are a bunch of canyons right. you want to stay at the bottom of the crevice, rather then riding up on top of the canyon.

Ideally you never actually get on top of a hump, you just navigate around them. Ultimately, moguls are not a fun part of snowboarding, and is part of the reason snowboarders dislike skiers, because skiers make them by doing quick short turns back and forth.

"God damn skiers, they turned that beautiful powder into 3 foot moguls again, I'm going home"


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## rasmasyean (Jan 26, 2008)

Moguls in general are usually tough for snowboarders. It’s because you don’t usually get the time to set up your turn and stuff and the variable terrain throws off our speed. In general, you have to plan your turns or 2 or 3 ahead. Even then, you often get only a brief moment to make your turn.

The way I do it is I used a technique called “counter-rotation”. I stick my arms out and rotate them in the opposite direction of the board rotation. Because “Newtons 3rd law: Every action has an equal and opposite reaction”, it enables the board to rotate a lot faster, especially when you are ”unweighted” from the ground, i.e. your full weight is not pressing on the ground. You can even pre-twist your body/arms to gain a larger range of board rotation/skid-force (assuming you edge it properly).

If you want to try this, do this exercise on small incline slope first and then steeper. Put your arms out, go straight down and rotate them CCW as you rotate the board CW…and try CW/CCW. Go slow at first until you are used to it. You can experiment with pre-twist: put your arms out a little CW instead of tip-tail aligned, then rotate them MORE CCW as you rotate your board MORE CW. When you are better, you can “link” them back to back without having to go straight. When you are used to this, you can try it in the moguls. And then instead of the gradual dynamic turns, you will be pretty much slashing around to make your turns between the moguls. Also, you can experiment with concentrating more of your weight (around 70%) on your lead foot (i.e. tail-unweighting), and it will alow your tail to "swing" easily.

This video is the best example I can find but I think I’m a bit stiffer when I do them myself personally. I think I can beat him in a mogul race though. You can see his lead arm do left hooks and back hands, while is rear arm does karate chops. 





Here's another one with wider moguls, but you can notice a similar maneuver when he's doing quick turns.


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## FtCS4 (Dec 30, 2010)

I actually love riding moguls, but they definitely take a lot more out of you on a board than skis. Ruddering is bad technique on regular slopes but I've found that it helps a ton on moguls. Just keep your weight forward, and lift and throw the board with your back foot. I don't do it on every turn, but it does help on some of the real tight ones. 

Nothing like flying past the skiers on 'their' terrain!


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## freshy (Nov 18, 2009)

Nothing worse than doing a blind air into a mogul field.
I just ride them like a bunch of banked turns. It's all about timing and looking ahead. They definitely make you a better rider once you master them.


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## Bones (Feb 24, 2008)

I'm learning to love them!

Once I learned to work the moguls rather than letting them work me, it got a lot better. I don't know what AASI or CASI terminology is, but basically I push or pull the tip or the tail up or down rather than letting it just passively ride up or down. Rather like a ski racer "pre-jumps" in a downhill race rather than letting themselves get launched. My knees and legs are already absorbing the impact before it even starts or, at least, that's what it feels like. It's a freakin' workout, though

If I can control my speed with some skidded turns so that my reaction time matches how fast the moguls are coming at me, then I can look 2 or 3 moguls ahead, plan my route and keep it all under control. Then I really enjoy them.


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## Grizz (Nov 10, 2008)

HoboMaster said:


> Ultimately, moguls are not a fun part of snowboarding, and is part of the reason snowboarders dislike skiers, because skiers make them by doing quick short turns back and forth.


If it was a snowboarding only hill, and assuming all the riders had sufficient ability to link turns, you would still get them.


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## Grizz (Nov 10, 2008)

Bones said:


> I don't know what AASI or CASI terminology is, but basically I push or pull the tip or the tail up or down rather than letting it just passively ride up or down.


Independent leg action + fore/aft movements.


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## HoboMaster (May 16, 2010)

Grizz said:


> If it was a snowboarding only hill, and assuming all the riders had sufficient ability to link turns, you would still get them.


Shh, don't give the skiers a leg to stand on :cheeky4:


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## Grizz (Nov 10, 2008)

rasmasyean said:


> The way I do it is I used a technique called “counter-rotation”. I stick my arms out and rotate them in the opposite direction of the board rotation.


In the bumps I try to keep my body stable and quiet and let my legs steer the board into a countered relationship with my body (like video 2).

What you are describing looks like video 1. Whacky ass. 




rasmasyean said:


> Also, you can experiment with concentrating more of your weight (around 70%) on your lead foot (i.e. tail-unweighting), and it will alow your tail to "swing" easily.


No thanks, that's one of the major flaws in my riding I'm trying to clean up.




rasmasyean said:


> Here's another one with wider moguls, but you can notice a similar maneuver when he's doing quick turns.


It might just be me, but these riders looks very different from each other.


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## Grizz (Nov 10, 2008)

HoboMaster said:


> Shh, don't give the skiers a leg to stand on :cheeky4:


A leg?

They've got two independent ones, with a ski on each, that's why they don't mind the bumps.


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## Quattro (Dec 2, 2010)

Pick a Line and BOMB it. Simple as that. Its more endurance than any thing.


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## HoboMaster (May 16, 2010)

When you get to ride pow all the time, I guess you learn to avoid them like the plague, which is what I do. I guess If I was forced to ride them all the time I would be more willing to deal with them, but I'd much rather be dodging trees,(that's my typical day) then struggling through moguls.


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## Jeklund (Dec 14, 2009)

I really don't mind moguls that much they only really frustrate me when I'm having a lazy day and don't really want to put in the effort to make calculated turns. If I really concentrate and decide to push myself I have no problems but this is normally the case with most aspects of my riding. The main things to remember when going through moguls is to try to ride on the side of them as this will give you the most edge in contact with the snow and thus you will have more control. If you have to ride over them loosen your legs and let them move independently over the mogul to avoid getting tossed into the air, as you approach the mogul your front leg should flex upward as your rear one extends downward. Along with good flexing/extending of the legs you should also be aware of you need to have your weight, I find as I ride up the mogul I tend to shift my weight rearward and as i ride down I shift it forward. What I find this does is it helps me keep stay in control as I'm not getting tossed all over the place. Finally and probably the most important aspect of mogul riding is anticipating your next turns so that you can be prepared for your next turn or be prepared for the unexpected mogul.


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## AIRider (Dec 25, 2010)

Thank you guys for all the advice, you are all great ... 

I have to learn to go through them, one fall at a time...  haha but I'll try the arm technique next time ...


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## Bones (Feb 24, 2008)

Grizz said:


> Independent leg action


Yeah, that's the term!

And active/anticipatory leg action as opposed to reactive/passive.


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## rasmasyean (Jan 26, 2008)

Grizz said:


> In the bumps I try to keep my body stable and quiet and let my legs steer the board into a countered relationship with my body (like video 2).
> 
> What you are describing looks like video 1. Whacky ass.
> 
> ...


Well OK, maybe it's not the most "elegant" looking thing but I once boarded with my Uncle who goes to NorthStar at Tahoe like all the time and he's like 50 years old and he like just goes non-stop through the mogul fields and had to like constantly wait for me. I remeber it did look kinda "funny" because it's almost like his nose barely moves and his tail is like flailing widely back and forth, and OK maybe it's "wack" but I was like holy crap, this 50 year old dude is smoking me for breakfast and this was pretty embarassing! 

But, yeah, I think part of the reason why the 2nd video looks different is because the moguls are more widely spaced...and/or the 2nd rider is much smaller...it's "Amanda", a girl (unless that's a trail name).

Here's one thats a bit "smoother" with a good camera angle.


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## Toecutter (Oct 11, 2009)

Are the two runs in the vids steeper than it looks (STIL) because they look like really gentle slopes. Sometimes at the big western resorts you find yourself at the top of a bump run and it's like looking down a cliff. Then you look at the pics later and it looks flat.


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## rasmasyean (Jan 26, 2008)

This vid is hilarious.
Snowboard Moguls Competition.


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## Karasene (Oct 20, 2010)

HA yeah that contest was funny.. everyone was just going for it. lol
The guy doing the backflip at 0:56 is in his late 40's too which is so awesome!

As far as moguls go I LOVE EM it gives me such a great work out and I'm down for a challenge.. moguls have made me such a better rider as a whole.. but I admit if I wasnt on the ice coast and I had a powder line to hit 90% of the season I'd stay away for sure!


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## shifty00 (Oct 17, 2010)

I fux with em. as long as they are not 4 feet tall mounds of edge impervious ice (did that at snowqualmie one season, hit one head on quite a bit to fast and proceeded to slide down the hill pinging off them like a pinball). Hurt my pride as much as my bones as it was right by a lift...


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## rasmasyean (Jan 26, 2008)

Grizz said:


> In the bumps I try to keep my body stable and quiet and let my legs steer the board into a countered relationship with my body (like video 2).
> 
> What you are describing looks like video 1. Whacky ass.


Actually, now that I examine video 2 up closely more, you can notice that she uses really precise "simultaneous" counter-rotation, especially when she's "hop turning" from one valley into the next. There's this one part where she catches a bit of air and it looks like she's about to do a boardslide on a rail and stop her rotation mid air (one of the key tricks that requires precise counter-rotation and board control). She's just a lot smoother and "better" than the dude in video 1.

Just full screen it and spam the space bar and you can see it in the still shots. Chances are, you prolly do the same thing but don't notice it. I'm convinced that every good mogul rider does it almost the same way. If you have a video of someone that does it good with a "still body", please show it. As I would like to know and learn a different technique too...if it's better.


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## caneyhead (Jan 5, 2009)

Moguls made me a better rider without a doubt. I ride with skiers mostly and you can imagine how a good skier will push you through a mogul field. Knees bent, independent suspension, fore and aft and cardio. Go for it. 

I find moguls to be helpful for speed check on steep icy terrain. Just bang into them at bottom of turn.

Moguls have endless freestyle potential, just take your time.


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## jlm1976 (Feb 26, 2009)

rasmasyean said:


> If you have a video of someone that does it good with a "still body", please show it. As I would like to know and learn a different technique too...if it's better.


Not deep moguls, but watch how much the board is moving up and down relative to the riders waist while the upperbody is extremely quite.


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## rasmasyean (Jan 26, 2008)

jlm1976 said:


> Not deep moguls, but watch how much the board is moving up and down relative to the riders waist while the upperbody is extremely quite.


Yeah, but that's not what most ppl mean by riding moguls. That's riding across the hill with some (small) bumps scattered arround. You take away the bumps and he's just carving a slope with wide traverses. 

I mean, "beginners" can do that too in "deep moguls". Just ride across the hill bouncing up and down until you're extremely balanced and find a "large pocket" to carve your turn. I mean, as Snowolf would suggest, you prolly want to do this vs. "zipper" when you're learning the moguls, but I wouldn't call that video something to aspire to!


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## jlm1976 (Feb 26, 2009)

Snowolf said:


> The point that Jim was trying to make with this is this video demonstrated really good independent flexion and extension of the legs to absorb the terrain. The rider maintained a quiet upper body even when he was making a turn. All of his turning control was done with lower body movements. What upper body movement he used was to position himself for each turn. It does not really matter that he did not run a zipper line.
> 
> You have to realize that videos like this are not there to entertain and wow you. They are designed to break down complex riding tasks into their components so a beginner can progress. Olympic style skiing and riding videos are of little value fir training purposes.


Exactly SnowWolf. I wanted to put something up that instructors and non-instructors could take something away from. 
Note that as Snowolf said, all his turns is coming from the lower body and he isn't waving his arms like a madman and counter-rotating every turn. Take his movements but up the speed and intensity and he'd be zipperlining the bumps. 
For those who think that video isn't something to aspire to, go out and try making carved GS turns through crudded, bumped, soft snow as smoothly as the rider in the video without the board leaving the snow and leaving your arms at your side and come back and tell us how easy it was.


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## rasmasyean (Jan 26, 2008)

jlm1976 said:


> Take his movements but up the speed and intensity and he'd be zipperlining the bumps.


Until I see a good video of what you claim, I don't think you can "fast forward" his moves like it was on a movie and instead have it zipperlined in some tight mogul field. That would be defying physics. Just imagine what that would look like...a fast forwarded old Jackie Chan scene that is so obviously not the real speed of the take. :laugh: It would be pretty amazing to see it in action.

I'm pretty sure that vid is just to show you how to independently flex your legs. Not "mogul bombing". And besides, just because it's from AASI, it doesn't mean that these are the best videos out there. They are pretty low quality, imo...i went through a couple of them. It was funny in the trees one where the dude repeated "don't go toward the trees, go between them..." like 3 times. lol Yeah, OK...that was never obvious. rofl!


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## Toecutter (Oct 11, 2009)

Snowolf said:


> I have often thought it would be a fun experiment to divide 2 bowl up into 2 lanes. One for skiers and one fir boarders to see how the mogul shape and size would differ. I think it would be fun to ride moguls that were created by snowboards.


The moguls made by snowboarders would look just like the ones made by skiers except they would smell like pot. Ha ha!

Kidding!


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## Donutz (May 12, 2010)

The snowboard moguls would have bodies under them.


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## that1guy (Jan 2, 2011)

Toecutter said:


> The moguls made by snowboarders would look just like the ones made by skiers except they would smell like pot. Ha ha!
> 
> Kidding!


I just laughed so hard I spit beer on my laptop. LOL


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