# Copper Mountain has been sold



## killclimbz (Aug 10, 2007)

And there goes Copper Mountain...

Seriously, Powdr Corp? Like the worst operator out there. I foresee a new back country play spot in my not too distant future!


----------



## Gnarly (Mar 12, 2008)

Looks like this will be the last season for the Copper/WP season pass and the last for the Wells Fargo 2 for 1 pass deal too.


----------



## burritosandsnow (Nov 22, 2008)

Copper mtn will now become the premiere destination resort in the rockies. With world class accommodations, terrain, nightlife, and events. Well not really but theyll have enough money to hype it up to where folks will believe it haha.


----------



## tomtom88 (Nov 13, 2008)

Is PowdrCorp really all that bad for Copper?


----------



## killclimbz (Aug 10, 2007)

Well Powdr Corp does seem to care about Park City, but look at how they treat Bachelor. That area is in need of some serious attention and they don't seem to be interested in giving it any. I believe they had to close some chairs last year due to them not spending the money on maintenance. I know Bachelor locals are pissed at how shitty that resort is ran. 

Here's some of the possible fall out I see from this. 

1. I don't see Copper as being able to survive as a single resort operating in Vail resort territory. Sure Loveland has pulled it off, but Loveland is a much shorter drive not requiring you to go through Summit County. I see no advantages to Copper that would attract people to get a season pass there instead of the Vail resorts option. In that scenario, I would see Copper dying a slow death, opening up a sweet new spot to go earn your turns in 5-10 years. Of course real estate there says this probably wouldn't happen. I could see a lot of huge lawsuits from property owners at the mountain over this. Still, buildings in shoddy repair, lifts constantly breaking, etc, will probably become the norm. 

2. Part of the reason we in Colorado have enjoyed relatively cheap season passes to major resorts is the Intrawest/Vail resorts two way fight. These two have kept the prices down. Before that, it was almost $800 for a season pass to Winterpark, Breck, or Keystone. Pick one and that is where your season pass was good for. There was the old Summit pass in the early 90's that went for $800 for all the Summit County resorts. Either way, without the competition from Intrawest, I am not so sure Vail resorts will be so motivated to roll out the pass deals they have. I could easily see them starting to charge $800 for their Summit county spots and $1200 for Vail/Beaver creek again. Everyone else would quickly follow suit.

3. Of course Intrawest and Powdr Corp may realize they don't have much of a chance running as single entities vs Vail resorts. So maybe they'll figure out a way to keep the combined offer going. Maybe. I am not counting on it with the brain trust that is running both of these corporations...


----------



## daysailer1 (Nov 9, 2007)

I see scenario #2 - pass prices going up significantly for everyone next season. No need to put Vail on sale anymore.


----------



## Gnarly (Mar 12, 2008)

killclimbz said:


> 3. Of course Intrawest and Powdr Corp may realize they don't have much of a chance running as single entities vs Vail resorts. So maybe they'll figure out a way to keep the combined offer going. Maybe. I am not counting on it with the brain trust that is running both of these corporations...


I hope that your last scenario holds true. In today's ski economy in CO, why would any resort try to go it alone unless they had something awesome to offer? While Copper is nice, if I had to choose between spending $500 for the Epic pass and spending $350 for a Copper pass, who in their right mind wouldn't get the Epic pass?

If Copper and WP don't partner up again, I guess it could be a good thing for those looking for a resort that won't be packed. Because I'm sure there are a number of people that only ride Copper because it's part of the Copper/WP pass. So maybe Copper could thrive as a larger Loveland. Someplace without massive lines?


----------



## killclimbz (Aug 10, 2007)

I agree that 2 is the most likely outcome. Though it may take another season or two for them to catch on. Then again, maybe not. I'd be prepared to starting ponying up around $800 minimum for a pass. They were doing fine with that model for years. Of course on the flip side, day pass deals will probably be a lot more prevalent.


----------



## killclimbz (Aug 10, 2007)

Gnarly said:


> I hope that your last scenario holds true. In today's ski economy in CO, why would any resort try to go it alone unless they had something awesome to offer? While Copper is nice, if I had to choose between spending $500 for the Epic pass and spending $350 for a Copper pass, who in their right mind wouldn't get the Epic pass?
> 
> If Copper and WP don't partner up again, I guess it could be a good thing for those looking for a resort that won't be packed. Because I'm sure there are a number of people that only ride Copper because it's part of the Copper/WP pass. So maybe Copper could thrive as a larger Loveland. Someplace without massive lines?


Problem with Copper thriving like Loveland is that the drive to/from Vail-Summit county is still going to be a shit show. Part of Loveland's charm is you can get a pretty full day and still get out of there before traffic gets bad. Plus you are looking at I70 traffic all day there, so you know when it's time to get out. Copper, not so much.


----------



## Gnarly (Mar 12, 2008)

killclimbz said:


> Problem with Copper thriving like Loveland is that the drive to/from Vail-Summit county is still going to be a shit show. Part of Loveland's charm is you can get a pretty full day and still get out of there before traffic gets bad. Plus you are looking at I70 traffic all day there, so you know when it's time to get out. Copper, not so much.


The good part about prices going up will be less skier traffic and less people on the slopes. Yes - it turns resort skiing/riding into a sport where only people with $$ can participate, but such is life.

The more I think about it, I'm not sure if any resort will raise the prices a lot. The huge decrease in ski/rider traffic would probably be too huge to be overcome with the increased profits from higher season pass prices.


----------



## killclimbz (Aug 10, 2007)

Yeah, I don't know what model they use on costs. I know that up until the end of the 90's they were getting those high prices, and the ski traffic was still a shit show. In fact, I don't really see much of a difference traffic wise at all. I think you'll see the first round of price gouging next season or the one after. Prices have been on the rise for years, but when it happens it'll be a big jump. Look towards Vail to shoot the first round on this one. 

They have a market and they know it. Sure the first year of a significant increase might get a decrease in numbers. It won't last. Look at Snowbird and Jackson Hole. $1200 for a season pass at either one of those places. Maybe more. They are doing just fine business wise.


----------



## Tarzanman (Dec 20, 2008)

killclimbz said:


> Yeah, I don't know what model they use on costs. I know that up until the end of the 90's they were getting those high prices, and the ski traffic was still a shit show. In fact, I don't really see much of a difference traffic wise at all. I think you'll see the first round of price gouging next season or the one after. Prices have been on the rise for years, but when it happens it'll be a big jump. Look towards Vail to shoot the first round on this one.
> 
> They have a market and they know it. Sure the first year of a significant increase might get a decrease in numbers. It won't last. Look at Snowbird and Jackson Hole. $1200 for a season pass at either one of those places. Maybe more. They are doing just fine business wise.


Glad I found this thread. It will be interesting to get the perspective of the industry from you grizzled veterans.

Jackson Hole doesn't have much in the way of competition (There's only the Snow King and Grand Targhee, to my knowledge)... I actually went out there last year and was told (by a local) that most of the locals don't bother with purchasing season passes and instead seek part time employment by the resort in order to get discounts on lift passes. I was also told (by another local) that the town/resort makes more money during the summer from of hikers/bikers/etc than they do during ski season.

Incidentally, I just purchased a CO Summit pass even though I will probably only be making 2 trips out to CO this year. Since I have never ridden in CO, I have no idea how prevalent or how much discount tickets to Breck/Keystone are and I figured I would almost break even on my first trip (4-5 days) and come out slightly ahead on a second trip. 

As for Copper mountain... maybe I am misunderstanding the article or the gist of your post? Is PowdrCorp not a newcomer to the CO area? Why would they NOT put enough money into the new venture to compete with an area chock full of ski resorts?


----------



## daysailer1 (Nov 9, 2007)

Powdr is a newcomer to Colorado and to the Front Range.

Generally past behavior can be used to indicate future behavior. From what I've read and heard about what Powdr has done at Killington and Mt. Bachelor, it looks as if they have NOT put any money into the infrastructure. Only the revenue the resort generates will be used for improvements. Current company money is not injected into the bought ski area. Intrawest was/is actively injecting money into services and improvements at WP, Copper, and Steamboat.

It remains to be seen what shakes out.


----------



## killclimbz (Aug 10, 2007)

mpdsnowman said:


> I dont think you will see much change for awhile. Most likely the first changes will be in management areas. U might actually even see some decrease in ticket/pass prices.


Great local perspective there. 

I think that statement goes with "duh". I doubt anyone will see any changes this season. Next season is the big question. I am thinking that there is a good chance Powdr Corp and Intrawest will figure out a packaged deal for a season pass to their resorts. Vail is too big of a Gorilla for them to ignore. Pass prices will probably have the usual increase and that's about it. It's the season after that you'll see them make moves if they are going to do it. Especially if there isn't a partnership to speak of next year. 

If pass prices do jump, I do expect to see more steep discounts for day tickets to start appearing around the Front Range. Kind of like in the old days...


----------



## Tarzanman (Dec 20, 2008)

Speaking of discount passes... how common/easy is it to get discount passes lower than the costs advertised on resorts' sites?

When I last looked, projected prices for Breck in early Jan were $77–$83 for a 3-day pass. Is that what you would typically end up paying, or is it really easy to get discounted pricing around town?


----------



## tomtom88 (Nov 13, 2008)

Where did you see those prices?! Last season, a single day pass cost me $96 at Breck in mid January!


----------



## daysailer1 (Nov 9, 2007)

I know they sell breck tix in King Soopers but I don't know how much for. You should call them.


----------



## Tarzanman (Dec 20, 2008)

tomtom88 said:


> Where did you see those prices?! Last season, a single day pass cost me $96 at Breck in mid January!


The prices I gave were for multi-day tickets (3 days or more) bought at least a week in advance
(Ski Lift Tickets - Breckenridge Lift Tickets | Breckenridge.com)

Isn't the closest King Soopers about an least an hour away from Breck? Car rental in Denver is quite pricey, so I'd have to take the bus to one before heading out to the town itself, methinks


----------



## Gnarly (Mar 12, 2008)

Tarzanman said:


> Isn't the closest King Soopers about an least an hour away from Breck? Car rental in Denver is quite pricey, so I'd have to take the bus to one before heading out to the town itself, methinks


I believe that there's a King Soopers practically next door to Breckenridge...But that could be a Safeway. Can't remember for sure.


----------



## killclimbz (Aug 10, 2007)

Gnarly said:


> I believe that there's a King Soopers practically next door to Breckenridge...But that could be a Safeway. Can't remember for sure.


City Market is King Soopers. King Soopers, City Market, and Safeway all sell the discount tickets. Though they may not sell any discount tickets in Summit County. If you are driving up from DIA the Safeway in Idaho Springs is an easy stop to get your discount tickets. There are a couple of rental shops in Idaho Springs that also sell them, plus the Breeze in Dumont.


----------



## killclimbz (Aug 10, 2007)

Also, don't expect much off for the lift tickets. Last year I think most places were only offering something like $3 or $5 off a lift ticket at the grocery stores. Used to be $10-$20 but those days disappeared when the cheap season passes came into vogue.


----------



## Triple8Sol (Nov 24, 2008)

This is a pretty interesting discussion moreso b/c I'll be hitting CO this season and we're still deciding which mountains to hit. Anyone care to speculate on why Intrawest would make this move and unload Copper while hanging onto Steamboat and Winter Park?


----------



## daysailer1 (Nov 9, 2007)

I don't know about Steamboat.

Intrawest doesn't own Winter Park, just operates it for the owner - the City & County of Denver. Winter Park's business was down only 5% last season. It did better than any other Front Range resort. I don't believe Copper was quite as sucessful.


----------



## killclimbz (Aug 10, 2007)

Triple8, I'd do the Southern Colorado tour if you can. El Nino years always seem to favor that region big time. Telluride, Crested Butte, Wolf Creek (especially Wolf Creek), Silverton, and even Monarch all seem to benefit from the pattern. Aspen is not a bad choice either. If you are going Front Range (Denver area), Vail, Winterpark, A-Basin, and Loveland tend to get the most snow.


----------



## AWNOW (Sep 12, 2009)

killclimbz said:


> City Market is King Soopers. King Soopers, City Market, and Safeway all sell the discount tickets. *Though they may not sell any discount tickets in Summit County*. If you are driving up from DIA the Safeway in Idaho Springs is an easy stop to get your discount tickets. There are a couple of rental shops in Idaho Springs that also sell them, plus the Breeze in Dumont.


This is accurate, no discounted tickets at grocery stores in Summit.


----------

