# Open Letter to Jeremy Jones, Mike Basich and The Nidecker Group



## SoaD009 (Jan 9, 2020)

I like how he just happened to go buy Nidecker boots, a Nidecker snowboard, and Nidecker bindings! I'm sure he totally believes that Nidecker is the best and he wasn't given free gear and/or paid to promote it.

In all seriousness, Kevin made a video about Adidas Tactical ADV Lexicons and I genuinely believe that he liked those boots. This is clearly a marketing video.


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## wrathfuldeity (Oct 5, 2007)

I liked the last part of the vid...dog on dogs...sniff. Clicks heels..."Toto we ain't in Kansas any more."

Just  bomb the vid with BA / Angry snowboarder channel


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## Thrash-Tompa (Oct 24, 2019)

SoaD009 said:


> I like how he just happened to go buy Nidecker boots, a Nidecker snowboard, and Nidecker bindings! I'm sure he totally believes that Nidecker is the best and he wasn't given free gear and/or paid to promote it.
> 
> In all seriousness, Kevin made a video about Adidas Tactical ADV Lexicons and I genuinely believe that he liked those boots. This is clearly a marketing video.


Bad marketing... scamming kids out of their money wont create future 'snowboarders', and I hope at least some brands understand how that will hurt them in the long game.


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## Thrash-Tompa (Oct 24, 2019)

wrathfuldeity said:


> I liked the last part of the vid...dog on dogs...sniff. Clicks heels..."Toto we ain't in Kansas any more."
> 
> Just  bomb the vid with BA / Angry snowboarder channel


I am old enough to think for myself, so don't need Avran or anyone else to tell me what's what... but I agree with him, you and anyone else that understands the big picture in this matter.


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## DaveMcI (Aug 19, 2013)




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## AC93 (May 1, 2020)

Kevin from spc is such a fucking Kook and his riding style sucks ass.
Just an honest opinion.


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## bseracka (Nov 14, 2011)

Isn't evo in the process of launching these same type of paid reviews


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## Craig64 (Jul 16, 2015)

I understand your angle of approach but you're maybe getting worked up about nothing. Most Businesses enjoy positive advertising (free and paid) and use it to increase their exposure/turnover/revenue stream....., welcome to the Capitalist US of A. Volume of sales generally always increases capital/profit and reduces manufacturing costs/profit. Some people are influenced by this but wiser heads like yourself can read though the advertorial hype and make a learned decision on the path to follow.

Personally, I didn't mind Matt Guf and he's pretty similar to Kevin, a nice sounding, decent style with a pleasant camera presence to promote products. Now look at where The House is today that they wouldn't pay Guf the extra $$$$ to keep him on the books..., their new presenter is pretty wooden and lacks any real marketing appeal in comparison.

I can see TJ moving forward as well as he's got his snowboard reviews pretty on point. He's got a fantastic presentation style, good technical input as well as decent riding footage all brought together to produce a solid video. Avran has got his own presentation style as well. His technical advice/input on his Reviews is pretty damn good, probably the best out there, but I'm not sure if his appeal is for everyone across the Industry/public. Biesty from the TGR I feel is okay. I get a lot of laughs out of their video's a fair bit with Pete as he clowns around a lot. They have Steph' doing all the Women's gear and she's reasonably okay and getting a lot better. The TGR presentation style is pretty good but they don't fill me with the greatest confidence with their technical advice. Their riding always looks the same regardless of the board they are on. This might be just filming in the one location all the time and not having the riding ability like TJ. I'd like to know how much he's earning/sponsorship as Biesty always seems to be riding/wearing the best $$$$ outerwear.

These guys are trying to cut a living and lead a pretty good lifestyle with the best asset they bring to the table to survive. It would be nice getting paid a decent income to do Snowboard Gear Reviews and ride all the rest of my time. Such is life I guess.

What I'm saying is by watching them all you'll prosper from this knowledge, bring this all together to make the right decision. In the end riding a board/bindings or using outerwear/boots is probably still the best way to understand how good gear will be for yourself.

It's 2021....., and unfortunately, the dollar drives everything $$$,$$$, $$$.


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## Craig64 (Jul 16, 2015)

DaveMcI said:


>


This chick is hot.


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## Rip154 (Sep 23, 2017)

I think it makes sense for someone to do this youtuber sponsorship thing. Snowboard marketing was getting stale. I can imagine some of these channels are pulling more newcomers than alot of sponsored competition riders, that are pretty much doing fuck all for the part of snowboarding I enjoy. Bit goofy, sure, don’t have all the facts right, check, but I think some of the pull is they are learning new stuff all the time.


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## MountainMystic (Apr 24, 2019)

DaveMcI said:


>





Thrash-Tompa said:


> Dear Jeremy, Mike and Nidecker Brothers,
> 
> Nidecker Group need to fire their marketing departement, and understand you all are going the wrong way with the 'SnowbrdProCamp' business model... watch link for example:
> 
> ...


I think it's a calculation of reach. kevin has 551K subscribers, and it appears that he will break out the kneeling pad for whoever pays enough. It's far easier to get kevin to plug to his koolaid drinkers, than to play the long game.

I agree, it doesn't develop snowboarding, or inspire the next generation of core snowboarders.


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## smellysell (Oct 29, 2018)

Craig64 said:


> This chick is hot.


Understatement of the century

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk


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## rayt100 (Aug 29, 2016)

That's Olivia Munn the actress


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## MountainMystic (Apr 24, 2019)

rayt100 said:


> That's Olivia Munn the actress


She might have a pro-deal with a sausage manufacturer. They might not be the ones she really enjoys eating, but she could be paid to promote those ones.


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## CocaCola Kicker (Jan 30, 2019)

I mean…who really cares though


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## jc20 (Mar 29, 2020)

This is not new at all.

Every Japanese youtuber is sponsored by a brand and they run through their products at the start of the season. Then they go out and make great videos with a bit more funding to make better content.

Need to understand his channel is not a review channel, he has done a few before but it's almost entirely just a snowboarding vlog.

100% back his model and he's so open about it I don't know how you could get upset - he even mentions he doesn't like boas but he's going to test them out again.

You go and watch stale life and it's full of Rome for stale and Bataleon for spenny, they still run through their gear and talk about it heaps - no one cares, don't see how this is any different.

I'm pretty sure board archive - an actual review channel is sponsored by Bataleon.
Stan is sponsored by bataleon.
Half the rest of the world is head to toe burton and energy drink companies, but for that price I get to watch good snowboarding content for free in my underpants.


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## RobPowderjunkie (Oct 7, 2021)

Craig64 said:


> I understand your angle of approach but you're maybe getting worked up about nothing. Most Businesses enjoy positive advertising (free and paid) and use it to increase their exposure/turnover/revenue stream....., welcome to the Capitalist US of A. Volume of sales generally always increases capital/profit and reduces manufacturing costs/profit. Some people are influenced by this but wiser heads like yourself can read though the advertorial hype and make a learned decision on the path to follow.
> 
> Personally, I didn't mind Matt Guf and he's pretty similar to Kevin, a nice sounding, decent style with a pleasant camera presence to promote products. Now look at where The House is today that they wouldn't pay Guf the extra $$$$ to keep him on the books..., their new presenter is pretty wooden and lacks any real marketing appeal in comparison.
> 
> ...


AMEN to that


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## lbs123 (Jan 24, 2017)

Kevin said in one of his previous videos that he was going to be sponsored by Nidecker this season. The problem is that he doesn't mention in any of these following videos that these are sponsored products. I like Nidecker so I don't mind looking at some close ups of the products I cannot see elsewhere, but for sure presenting sponsored products like some generic "good fit" products isn't ok. 

Clearly, it's driven by the potential reach he might have, but it's a shame that they don't try to do it in more transparent way. My biggest problem with SPC, though, is that despite his position and influence, Kevin is not able to honestly look at his riding, progress (or rather regress) and the way how he divides snowboarding community.


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## Thrash-Tompa (Oct 24, 2019)

Craig64 said:


> I understand your angle of approach but you're maybe getting worked up about nothing. Most Businesses enjoy positive advertising (free and paid) and use it to increase their exposure/turnover/revenue stream....., welcome to the Capitalist US of A. Volume of sales generally always increases capital/profit and reduces manufacturing costs/profit. Some people are influenced by this but wiser heads like yourself can read though the advertorial hype and make a learned decision on the path to follow.
> 
> Personally, I didn't mind Matt Guf and he's pretty similar to Kevin, a nice sounding, decent style with a pleasant camera presence to promote products. Now look at where The House is today that they wouldn't pay Guf the extra $$$$ to keep him on the books..., their new presenter is pretty wooden and lacks any real marketing appeal in comparison.
> 
> ...


I strongly disagree, but respect that your type of view is different.
There is a fundamental difference between healthy capitalism (money need to flow), and laissez-faire capitalism (the unsustainable need to keep expanding)... as I think they portray perfectly in the movie The Big Short (2015). Your second point regarding Matt Guf and Kevin is flawed, as it basically means you don't mind being robbed as long as the thief had a pleasant demeanor. If anyone can do or say anything to "cut a living", I guess you think boosting cars and running a chop shop qualifies as a legitimate business endeavor? 
But let us invert the question: Why can you not be genuine and tell the truth... and sell product?
If you lie and sell me a crApple phone, I will never buy another. If you told me the Apple XYZ-modell did not have the same performance as other models, but is easy to use and look damn fine... I probably would.


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## Thrash-Tompa (Oct 24, 2019)

MountainMystic said:


> She might have a pro-deal with a sausage manufacturer. They might not be the ones she really enjoys eating, but she could be paid to promote those ones.


Or maybe some guys just like to see people putting sausages in their mouth


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## Thrash-Tompa (Oct 24, 2019)

CocaCola Kicker said:


> I mean…who really cares though


I do, that's why I posted.
If you do not, then why comment?


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## Thrash-Tompa (Oct 24, 2019)

jc20 said:


> This is not new at all.
> 
> Every Japanese youtuber is sponsored by a brand and they run through their products at the start of the season. Then they go out and make great videos with a bit more funding to make better content.
> 
> ...


Thanks for your input!
However I never said it was something new, so read my post again... as I say this old business model will just hurt them in the end.
Your estimation regarding my understanding is incorrect.
Half the world does not ride head-to-toe Burton and support energy drink companies, not even half the US. You need to travel and ride more and watch less Youtube... even if you prefer wearing nothing but underpants.
(if you bought any of the product, the content was not free)
Question: Is there a fundamental difference between for example of what Travis Rice does with the help of his sponsors, and what Snowb-rdProCamp does with his... and in the end, what product will survive and grow best?


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## Thrash-Tompa (Oct 24, 2019)

lbs123 said:


> Kevin said in one of his previous videos that he was going to be sponsored by Nidecker this season. The problem is that he doesn't mention in any of these following videos that these are sponsored products. I like Nidecker so I don't mind looking at some close ups of the products I cannot see elsewhere, but for sure presenting sponsored products like some generic "good fit" products isn't ok.
> 
> Clearly, it's driven by the potential reach he might have, but it's a shame that they don't try to do it in more transparent way. My biggest problem with SPC, though, is that despite his position and influence, Kevin is not able to honestly look at his riding, progress (or rather regress) and the way how he divides snowboarding community.


Thanks!
I like Nidecker also... hence why I wrote the post.


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## RobPowderjunkie (Oct 7, 2021)

Thrash-Tompa said:


> Question: Is there a fundamental difference between for example of what Travis Rice does with the help of his sponsors, and what Snowb-rdProCamp does with his... and in the end, what product will survive and grow best?


Hey man, but it´s completely different..... TRice has on very few occasions presented products (only Quicksilver and Libtech stuff obviously!!) because he´s paid by them. Also let´s not forget that SPC and TRice have a very different audience. In TRice case, not everybody is interested in hitting the big mountain terrain and being informed on how a product performs in that environment. SPC is more generic in my opinion. The audience is waaaaay wider ranging from the absolute beginner who never strapped in on a snowboard to a more advanced rider that wants to progress in the park etc etc etc. So they use the help of their sponsors very differently really, you can´t even compare... TRice produces badass content of AK spines etc... Kevin from SPC does more of a snowboarding vlog if you ask me, with random tips here and there like "yeah this board feels great" etc etc. But a vlog nonetheless..


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## lbs123 (Jan 24, 2017)

Thrash-Tompa said:


> I like Nidecker also... hence why I wrote the post.


Funny is that I have Nidecker strongly associated with the Slice 'N' Dice series which is much more genuine marketing act. That's what got me intertested in the brand, buy the Area a few years ago and now thinking about buying another board. But then you have comments like "Kevin brought me here; good stuff!" under this video


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## easyrider16 (Sep 28, 2020)

If snowboardProCamp is being sponsored to create this, how is it different from any paid tv commercial or radio ad ever? Companies have the right to advertise. I don't think that part hurts the consumer. If there's anyone to blame, it's snowboardProCamp more than anyone - he should disclose if he is sponsored. The failure to do that is going to hurt his brand - people might start to think he is just a shill.

I'm not crazy about snowboardProCamp reviews anyway. They tend to be pretty basic with very little useful information. Goodride reviews tend to be in the same category. Reviews that say, "this boot is comfortable" or "this board is great" aren't too useful. Tell me why it's comfortable, how it's great, and how it handles in certain conditions. In this regard AngrySnowboarder's reviews are superior. Agnarchy is pretty good, too. Forums like this also help quite a bit.


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## Stavros (Sep 13, 2015)

with 500.000 subscribers SPC should have stay in vloging mode . the income from youtube must be high enough to continue vloging....


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## fraxmental (Jun 25, 2011)

commercial's are not real. imagine how real is this thing. is just the new tiktok, insta, vlog carrer...and money.


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## robotfood99 (Mar 19, 2016)

I'd also like to see them be more transparent with paid promotions, as in all content that 'contain paid promotions.' Then in those vids, if they have the guts to tell it like it is, they earn my respect. They need to realize that in this day and age, getting paid to feature something is not a huge deal. But not being open with what/who they get paid from, and waxing on all positive about the products they were obvious paid to promote, well that's the fastest way to lose credibility. If they respect their viewers, they should state facts as they are.


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## Nivek (Jan 24, 2008)

The issue is not that he is being sponsored or promoting sponsored gear, whatever, do you. His history is presented as a consumer with a following, as in the gear he rides is his choice un-influenced by outside input. So to continue that appearance but now with paid promotion and not to let people know is the issue. You can't compare this to TV, commercials are known to the general public to be paid for. You can't compare it to pro riders pushing their brands, we know they're paid to. He is presenting this as if he picked this stuff himself FROM A SHOP, and paid for it with money. It's bullshit. 


Also the fact he says he fits snowboard boots to his shoe size is laughable.


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## lab49232 (Sep 13, 2011)

Nivek said:


> The issue is not that he is being sponsored or promoting sponsored gear, whatever, do you. His history is presented as a consumer with a following, as in the gear he rides is his choice un-influenced by outside input. So to continue that appearance but now with paid promotion and not to let people know is the issue. You can't compare this to TV, commercials are known to the general public to be paid for. You can't compare it to pro riders pushing their brands, we know they're paid to. He is presenting this as if he picked this stuff himself FROM A SHOP, and paid for it with money. It's bullshit.
> 
> 
> Also the fact he says he fits snowboard boots to his shoe size is laughable.


Ok So a few points 

1: I seem to remember a specific group that preaches unbias reviews taking an absolute SH*T for YEARS on any and everything Mervin after they weren't given free product to test, despite them admitting afterwards that they had not rode any of their product over that time. Then suddenly half of Mervin was magically perfectly fine the second they were given product again so maybe check the ego....

2: For the OP, Paid reviews like this do not and will not hurt the company in the slightest. Is it cringetacular to people like us, absolutely. But would anyone with any basic knowledge ever watch that video if you hadn't blasted it? No, because it's a video meant for new comers, that will only be watched by newcomers who won't have a problem with it. Virtually no person with basic knowledge is ever going to watch that video. None of us are gonna suddenly not buy a Nidecker product now, and a lot of brand new people might.

3: Every review from any major player, all product info you take in is paid for. Consumers who think they buy product based on their own knowledge and aren't making "paid for" purchases are still living in the Matrix. And in the endif you have a problem with any of this all you're really complaining about is capitalism... And as that's what rules the world i suggest you simply take the red pill, accept that it's all stupid, and just go snowboard and have fun despite that.


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## Kevington (Feb 8, 2018)

I personally get more stoked on seeing sponsored riders do amazing stuff but I reluctantly see the business sense of sponsoring more relatable snowboarders rather than only god-like savants. I do think however, that there is a really healthy middle ground that is starting to flourish where we get to see good and very good snowboarders doing semi-normal stuff. Like Longo's side hits series, Korua vids, Holy Bowly, Boardslide Worldwide and the aforementioned Slice 'n' Dice videos from Nidecker themselves. People riding ski resorts and making it look good and more importantly, fun rather than heli, cat or sled accessed fantasy terrain or competition size park jumps. At this point I really don't need to see Jeremy or Travis ride down another Alaskan cream cake. 

The new vlog guys I'm not so sure about. I guess its good if you want basic product info but its not getting me stoked to ride that (or any other product). Every bit of sponsored content contributes to 'the culture' whether that is it's intention or not. If its some average (not particularly funny or charismatic or knowledgeable) person riding with little or no style, filmed boringly then telling me about their boots it kind of devalues what is at the end of the day an aesthetic activity and scene. Am I superficial if I want snowboarding and sponsored video footage of it to actually look good? Should it only be hardcore maniacs and talented outliers who put in years of blood, sweat and tears who get free stuff and travel? Am I just old and salty?


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## Nivek (Jan 24, 2008)

lab49232 said:


> Ok So a few points
> 
> 1: I seem to remember a specific group that preaches unbias reviews taking an absolute SH*T for YEARS on any and everything Mervin after they weren't given free product to test, despite them admitting afterwards that they had not rode any of their product over that time. Then suddenly half of Mervin was magically perfectly fine the second they were given product again so maybe check the ego....


They were shit. They then stopped sending us boards, cause if all you get is bad press, why keep asking for bad press. Time went on, we were never offered an opportunity to change our minds. Then we got on stuff again, changes to product were made, and low and behold some stuff was good, and now most of it is, not all, but most. More than likely their production techniques got better, they started sourcing higher quality glass, they started using basalt, better quality wood....


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## lab49232 (Sep 13, 2011)

Nivek said:


> They were shit. They then stopped sending us boards, cause if all you get is bad press, why keep asking for bad press. Time went on, we were never offered an opportunity to change our minds. Then we got on stuff again, changes to product were made, and low and behold some stuff was good, and now most of it is, not all, but most. More than likely their production techniques got better, they started sourcing higher quality glass, they started using basalt, better quality wood....


Ooooffff you may wanna stop. Claiming your bad press and bad reviews on a company were based out of "ignorance because they wouldn't give you free product to prove you wrong" and not on actual knowledge of the product they were currently producing isn't the look that you think it is. And calling out a paid pitch when you were actively pitching garbage because you weren't getting paid..... yikes.


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## Thrash-Tompa (Oct 24, 2019)

RobPowderjunkie said:


> Hey man, but it´s completely different..... TRice has on very few occasions presented products (only Quicksilver and Libtech stuff obviously!!) because he´s paid by them. Also let´s not forget that SPC and TRice have a very different audience. Not everybody is interested in hitting the big mountain terrain and being informed on how that product performs in that environment. SPC is really really generic in my opinion. The audience is waaaaay wider ranging from the absolute beginner who never strapped in on a snowboard to a more advanced rider that wants to progress in the park etc etc etc. So they use the help of their sponsors very differently really, you can´t even compare... TRice produces badass content of AK spines etc... Kevin from SPC does more of a snowboarding vlog if you ask me, with random tips here and there like "yeah this board feels great" etc etc. But a vlog nonetheless..


Yes, that it is completely different is the point, where I find one example positive and the other negative... without saying that Kevin should try to copy Travis.
One example is how the riders show the equipment they chose for Natural Selection... still sponsored but the truth.


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## Thrash-Tompa (Oct 24, 2019)

easyrider16 said:


> If snowboardProCamp is being sponsored to create this, how is it different from any paid tv commercial or radio ad ever? Companies have the right to advertise. I don't think that part hurts the consumer. If there's anyone to blame, it's snowboardProCamp more than anyone - he should disclose if he is sponsored. The failure to do that is going to hurt his brand - people might start to think he is just a shill.
> 
> I'm not crazy about snowboardProCamp reviews anyway. They tend to be pretty basic with very little useful information. Goodride reviews tend to be in the same category. Reviews that say, "this boot is comfortable" or "this board is great" aren't too useful. Tell me why it's comfortable, how it's great, and how it handles in certain conditions. In this regard AngrySnowboarder's reviews are superior. Agnarchy is pretty good, too. Forums like this also help quite a bit.


I agree that reviewing equipment should be different from marketing equipment... like the difference of a movie trailer from a company and a movie review on imdb.


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## Thrash-Tompa (Oct 24, 2019)

fraxmental said:


> commercial's are not real. imagine how real is this thing. is just the new tiktok, insta, vlog carrer...and money.


Keyword: commercial.
If clearly a commercial, like a movie trailer = no problem.
When pretending to review, like a movie on imdb, but actually a commercial = problems.


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## Surgeon (Apr 13, 2020)

Thrash-Tompa said:


> I agree that reviewing equipment should be different from marketing equipment... like the difference of a movie trailer from a company and a movie review on imdb.


Agreed. Plus, if we use Guf as an example, I wouldn't have had a problem with what he did for the House if he/they would've called it "product presentation" or something else along those lines.
I get it, many many kids want to have things spelled out for them instead of reading the catalog and stat-sheet or can't understand what is presented on paper... go ahead, show the product and explain it to them, that's fine.
However, calling it a "review" is where I had a problem... they weren't reviews, they just presented the boards they sold in order to, well, sell them...


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## Thrash-Tompa (Oct 24, 2019)

lab49232 said:


> Ok So a few points
> 
> 1: I seem to remember a specific group that preaches unbias reviews taking an absolute SH*T for YEARS on any and everything Mervin after they weren't given free product to test, despite them admitting afterwards that they had not rode any of their product over that time. Then suddenly half of Mervin was magically perfectly fine the second they were given product again so maybe check the ego....
> 
> ...


Accepting what people do or say without speaking your mind when you feel something is not right, is the opposite of freedom.
To care for new comers instead of scamming them, should be the priority of all in snowboarding.


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## Thrash-Tompa (Oct 24, 2019)

Kevington said:


> I personally get more stoked on seeing sponsored riders do amazing stuff but I reluctantly see the business sense of sponsoring more relatable snowboarders rather than only god-like savants. I do think however, that there is a really healthy middle ground that is starting to flourish where we get to see good and very good snowboarders doing semi-normal stuff. Like Longo's side hits series, Korua vids, Holy Bowly, Boardslide Worldwide and the aforementioned Slice 'n' Dice videos from Nidecker themselves. People riding ski resorts and making it look good and more importantly, fun rather than heli, cat or sled accessed fantasy terrain or competition size park jumps. At this point I really don't need to see Jeremy or Travis ride down another Alaskan cream cake.
> 
> The new vlog guys I'm not so sure about. I guess its good if you want basic product info but its not getting me stoked to ride that (or any other product). Every bit of sponsored content contributes to 'the culture' whether that is it's intention or not. If its some average (not particularly funny or charismatic or knowledgeable) person riding with little or no style, filmed boringly then telling me about their boots it kind of devalues what is at the end of the day an aesthetic activity and scene. Am I superficial if I want snowboarding and sponsored video footage of it to actually look good? Should it only be hardcore maniacs and talented outliers who put in years of blood, sweat and tears who get free stuff and travel? Am I just old and salty?


I agree with getting more stoked on material more closely to my own riding, than that of circus tricks or acrobatics.
Was not saying everything should be riding like TR, just that he actively tries to give back to the sport... like the difference of Jackson and White.


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## Thrash-Tompa (Oct 24, 2019)

Nivek said:


> They were shit. They then stopped sending us boards, cause if all you get is bad press, why keep asking for bad press. Time went on, we were never offered an opportunity to change our minds. Then we got on stuff again, changes to product were made, and low and behold some stuff was good, and now most of it is, not all, but most. More than likely their production techniques got better, they started sourcing higher quality glass, they started using basalt, better quality wood....


I have no dog in this race, not affiliated and do not review products for income.


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## Thrash-Tompa (Oct 24, 2019)

lab49232 said:


> Ooooffff you may wanna stop. Claiming your bad press and bad reviews on a company were based out of "ignorance because they wouldn't give you free product to prove you wrong" and not on actual knowledge of the product they were currently producing isn't the look that you think it is. And calling out a paid pitch when you were actively pitching garbage because you weren't getting paid..... yikes.


I have no dog in this race, not affiliated and do not review products for income


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## Thrash-Tompa (Oct 24, 2019)

Even though this 'open letter' was adressed to Jeremy, Mike and TNG... It's great to see people voicing their opinions!


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## Yeahti87 (Jan 17, 2019)

Thrash-Tompa said:


> Yes, that it is completely different is the point, where I find one example positive and the other negative... without saying that Kevin should try to copy Travis.
> One example is how the riders show the equipment they chose for Natural Selection... still sponsored but the truth.


The pros are often riding a customized board (e.g. a stiffer flex). So you’re buying a different board than they actually ride.
Mark is open about it:


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## lab49232 (Sep 13, 2011)

Thrash-Tompa said:


> Accepting what people do or say without speaking your mind when you feel something is not right, is the opposite of freedom.
> To care for new comers instead of scamming them, should be the priority of all in snowboarding.


Oh feel free to speak out. Didn't say not to. I said your warnings of "this is gonna backfire" is just false. This type of advertising works, well in fact. And it's not going to end because capitalism. is that a good thing, no, but it's also inevitable. 

And then I was explaining while you were able to see through this as garbage, EVERYTHING you see and read that you actually take to heart is just the exact same as this only hidden better. People on here scream about the Katanas for example, myself included. Did i get mine from Rome for free and did that possibly influence my opinion of them, likely so. 

All the information out there is paid for in the same way as this, this one is just more cringe and less veiled. I guess I just dont see how that inherently makes it worse?


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## bazman (Jan 15, 2017)

Yeah this is not great. I have no issue with the sponsorship itself, but he has to declare it in the video and description.

YouTube need to take a lot of the blame here, they don't have an option for reporting undeclared sponsorship.

You can report to the FTC if in the US. I did a search and found this guide on how to do it

__
https://www.reddit.com/r/BeautyGuruChatter/comments/fy3e0w

Other countries should have their own option for reporting


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## Thrash-Tompa (Oct 24, 2019)

Yeahti87 said:


> The pros are often riding a customized board (e.g. a stiffer flex). So you’re buying a different board than they actually ride.


Correct, some do... and they also push it way further than most riders can, meaning similar results from the regular set-up for the regular rider.

(insert goofy joke here)


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## Thrash-Tompa (Oct 24, 2019)

lab49232 said:


> Oh feel free to speak out. Didn't say not to. I said your warnings of "this is gonna backfire" is just false. This type of advertising works, well in fact. And it's not going to end because capitalism. is that a good thing, no, but it's also inevitable.
> 
> And then I was explaining while you were able to see through this as garbage, EVERYTHING you see and read that you actually take to heart is just the exact same as this only hidden better. People on here scream about the Katanas for example, myself included. Did i get mine from Rome for free and did that possibly influence my opinion of them, likely so.
> 
> All the information out there is paid for in the same way as this, this one is just more cringe and less veiled. I guess I just dont see how that inherently makes it worse?


Already gave an example of selling a fake iPhone and a real one, which I think is a suitable answer.
Also... this is just meant as a discussion, meaning we do not have to agree on everything.


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## Thrash-Tompa (Oct 24, 2019)

bazman said:


> Yeah this is not great. I have no issue with the sponsorship itself, but he has to declare it in the video and description.
> 
> YouTube need to take a lot of the blame here, they don't have an option for reporting undeclared sponsorship.
> 
> ...


I'm not big on reporting.
Rather see willful changes, when/if one is presented with justified input from others.


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## Nivek (Jan 24, 2008)

lab49232 said:


> Ooooffff you may wanna stop. Claiming your bad press and bad reviews on a company were based out of "ignorance because they wouldn't give you free product to prove you wrong" and not on actual knowledge of the product they were currently producing isn't the look that you think it is. And calling out a paid pitch when you were actively pitching garbage because you weren't getting paid..... yikes.


1. Never gotten paid and don't keep the products I review. So let's make that clear.
2. If a brand makes no advertised changes to a product, I can only assume it will ride just as good/bad as it did the last time I rode it. It is impossible to ride every single board, every single year. So if we aren't told it changed, then it maintains it's last ridden experience. Pretty simple. Sorry that's hard to understand, hope this helps.


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## Nivek (Jan 24, 2008)

I also wanna say that while this may be a "mistep" in some eyes by Nidecker, don't punish them. They're working hard to break into the US, and deserve it. Their shit rips and I back most of what they make. Except the Smoke, that thing sucks, also not actually a fan of the Tracer, which surprised me. The Bros have been doing good things from what I have been told with the brands they've been acquiring. There are some bummers, like getting rid of the Flow board line as the Era, Solitude, and Whiteout were really damn good, but things happen.


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## CocaCola Kicker (Jan 30, 2019)

RIP Mat Guf


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## lab49232 (Sep 13, 2011)

Nivek said:


> 1. Never gotten paid and don't keep the products I review. So let's make that clear.
> 2. If a brand makes no advertised changes to a product, I can only assume it will ride just as good/bad as it did the last time I rode it. It is impossible to ride every single board, every single year. So if we aren't told it changed, then it maintains it's last ridden experience. Pretty simple. Sorry that's hard to understand, hope this helps.


1: Getting free product to test to gain content that you can sell is a form of payment.
2: Not getting free content so making up your own negative content and presenting it as if you are informed on it.... arguably worse and kind of blackmail/extortion etc. 

Again the only difference here is that they didn't hide it was a paid ad, but also didn't put the physical asterisk stating it in the video. There are no unpaid unbiased free product reviews from companies/websites/etc. They are all just as paid for as this.


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## bazman (Jan 15, 2017)

Thrash-Tompa said:


> I'm not big on reporting.
> Rather see willful changes, when/if one is presented with justified input from others.


This is such a huge problem on all the big social media platforms. How s


Thrash-Tompa said:


> I'm not big on reporting.
> Rather see willful changes, when/if one is presented with justified input from others.


You seem to be blaming Nidecker, but it's Kevin at SPC who is publishing videos without stating he is sponsored by them. YouTube and the other social media platforms don't seem to care very much either. It's a huge problem that is happening all the time


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## Nivek (Jan 24, 2008)

lab49232 said:


> 1: *Getting free product to test to gain content that you can sell is a form of payment*.
> 2: Not getting free content so making up your own negative content and presenting it as if you are informed on it.... arguably worse and kind of blackmail/extortion etc.
> 
> Again the only difference here is that they didn't hide it was a paid ad, but also didn't put the physical asterisk stating it in the video. There are no unpaid unbiased free product reviews from companies/websites/etc. They are all just as paid for as this.


I give up on the grounds of poor reading comprehension.


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## lab49232 (Sep 13, 2011)

bazman said:


> This is such a huge problem on all the big social media platforms. How s
> 
> 
> You seem to be blaming Nidecker, but it's Kevin at SPC who is publishing videos without stating he is sponsored by them. YouTube and the other social media platforms don't seem to care very much either. It's a huge problem that is happening all the time


Exactly. Companies give away product, loan product, etc all the time for reviews. When a reviewer presents a less than honest portrayal of it that's gonna make the reviewer look bad not the company. The only thing Nidecker really may have done wrong is not vet the reviewer but outside of this it's more a problem with reviewers. 

As i've been saying, product reviewers are the real issue. They're all doing it for a paycheck and thus you will never have a real unbiased reviewer, we have the proof in this thread.


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## Nivek (Jan 24, 2008)

lab49232 said:


> Exactly. Companies give away product, loan product, etc all the time for reviews. When a reviewer presents a less than honest portrayal of it that's gonna make the reviewer look bad not the company. The only thing Nidecker really may have done wrong is not vet the reviewer but outside of this it's more a problem with reviewers.
> 
> As i've been saying, product reviewers are the real issue. They're all doing it for a paycheck and thus you will never have a real unbiased reviewer, we have the proof in this thread.


Which reviewer hurt you? You can tell us. This is a safe place.


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## CocaCola Kicker (Jan 30, 2019)

How does my guy have 550k subscribers and beyond medals has like 2k?


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## AC93 (May 1, 2020)

CocaCola Kicker said:


> How does my guy have 550k subscribers and beyond medals has like 2k?


I've heard that he bought most of his subscribers. But that could be wrong.


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## Surgeon (Apr 13, 2020)

Yeahti87 said:


> The pros are often riding a customized board (e.g. a stiffer flex). So you’re buying a different board than they actually ride.
> Mark is open about it:


Yeah, I remember a Burton rep stating openly that Danny Davis was actually riding a CustomX with the Freethinker artwork instead of his actual pro-model at the US Open.
I don't see a problem with that. If a sig board was actually identical and as stiff as the boards the pro ride, they wouldn't sell almost at all since the target consumers aren't pros, except for a very few, people of that caliber are sponsored and ride what they get...


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## Thrash-Tompa (Oct 24, 2019)

Nivek said:


> 1. Never gotten paid and don't keep the products I review. So let's make that clear.
> 2. If a brand makes no advertised changes to a product, I can only assume it will ride just as good/bad as it did the last time I rode it. It is impossible to ride every single board, every single year. So if we aren't told it changed, then it maintains it's last ridden experience. Pretty simple. Sorry that's hard to understand, hope this helps.


I think your body of work speaks for itself, meaning nobody should really doubt you Kevin.


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## Thrash-Tompa (Oct 24, 2019)

Nivek said:


> I also wanna say that while this may be a "mistep" in some eyes by Nidecker, don't punish them. They're working hard to break into the US, and deserve it. Their shit rips and I back most of what they make. Except the Smoke, that thing sucks, also not actually a fan of the Tracer, which surprised me. The Bros have been doing good things from what I have been told with the brands they've been acquiring. There are some bummers, like getting rid of the Flow board line as the Era, Solitude, and Whiteout were really damn good, but things happen.


Exactly, hence why I urge them to change their way before they make to much negative blowback.
I prefer The Nidecker Group brands to most, and feel they do not need 'used car salesman tactics'.


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## Thrash-Tompa (Oct 24, 2019)

CocaCola Kicker said:


> RIP Mat Guf


Don't know the man, so can't speak on him as a person.
Was just using the way he used to pitch for The H-use, as an example of spewing out promos but pretending it was honest reviews. If anyone would break down and analyse his bulk of old 'reviews' I am sure you could find proof of him actually giving all brands and models a thumbs up, albeit at different times.
Go have a look at for example his 'review' of the Salomon HiFi Boot, and if the way he pilots the pro-rider will not make you cringe... well, then you and I are just on opposite sides of the spectrum in this matter.


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## Thrash-Tompa (Oct 24, 2019)

lab49232 said:


> 1: Getting free product to test to gain content that you can sell is a form of payment.
> 2: Not getting free content so making up your own negative content and presenting it as if you are informed on it.... arguably worse and kind of blackmail/extortion etc.
> 
> Again the only difference here is that they didn't hide it was a paid ad, but also didn't put the physical asterisk stating it in the video. There are no unpaid unbiased free product reviews from companies/websites/etc. They are all just as paid for as this.


Getting paid is not the issue here... it's the difference of being honest or lying.
If Nivek told us that every new board/binding/boot he tried was the very best... his favorite... then you would have an argument here.


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## Thrash-Tompa (Oct 24, 2019)

bazman said:


> This is such a huge problem on all the big social media platforms. How s
> 
> 
> You seem to be blaming Nidecker, but it's Kevin at SPC who is publishing videos without stating he is sponsored by them. YouTube and the other social media platforms don't seem to care very much either. It's a huge problem that is happening all the time


I'm not sure 'blame' is the correct word here, but as The Nidecker Group is the entity paying Sn-wboardProCamp... I am adressing them to look into changing their ways. 
Hopefully Kevin will also have a think on this, and maybe change his method. With his extended platform, he could do a lot of good for snowboarding...


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## Thrash-Tompa (Oct 24, 2019)

Nivek said:


> I give up on the grounds of poor reading comprehension.


I hear you!
Have been 'giving up' on this whole issue for a looong time, living through many crappy eras/stuff in snowboarding... but this time I felt I would just speak my mind, and see where it could take things.


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## Thrash-Tompa (Oct 24, 2019)

lab49232 said:


> Exactly. Companies give away product, loan product, etc all the time for reviews. When a reviewer presents a less than honest portrayal of it that's gonna make the reviewer look bad not the company. The only thing Nidecker really may have done wrong is not vet the reviewer but outside of this it's more a problem with reviewers.
> 
> As i've been saying, product reviewers are the real issue. They're all doing it for a paycheck and thus you will never have a real unbiased reviewer, we have the proof in this thread.


I think that the peopl holding the money, can make the necessary changes.
If TNG tells Kevin to change up or he will not get paid, what would happen?


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## Thrash-Tompa (Oct 24, 2019)

Nivek said:


> Which reviewer hurt you? You can tell us. This is a safe place.


My main guess would be the ones who propose certain boots.


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## Thrash-Tompa (Oct 24, 2019)

Surgeon said:


> Yeah, I remember a Burton rep stating openly that Danny Davis was actually riding a CustomX with the Freethinker artwork instead of his actual pro-model at the US Open.
> I don't see a problem with that. If a sig board was actually identical and as stiff as the boards the pro ride, they wouldn't sell almost at all since the target consumers aren't pros, except for a very few, people of that caliber are sponsored and ride what they get...


This issue is also very interesting... I agree we are experiencing an 'arms race' much like the one in mobile phone sales; i.e. the snowboard brands incorporate and market tons of high tech materials and innovations in new product - leaving stuff that actually are less fun for the average rider. But since we automatically want what's 'the best', we keep buying more expensive stuff above our riding level and in the end have a bit less fun.


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## fraxmental (Jun 25, 2011)

Thrash-Tompa said:


> Getting paid is not the issue here... it's the difference of being honest or lying.
> If Nivek told us that every new board/binding/boot he tried was the very best... his favorite... then you would have an argument here.


I think this is the fundament on what a vast majority of things happens in our society. And from my point of view there is a big fight that we need to win and that is the fight of being honest and not lying to yourself. But that needs a certain character to get into this fight. Because if you loose this fight in all the other aspects of your life, it will get very easy to "lie" but it needs some skils, and the society will teach you how to lie the best...and not beeing caught..that what diplomacy is.
So yes it more about the people not about the products.
But take the fight from inside if you want to win...it is too late to take it from the outsie. 

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## Yeahti87 (Jan 17, 2019)

Surgeon said:


> Yeah, I remember a Burton rep stating openly that Danny Davis was actually riding a CustomX with the Freethinker artwork instead of his actual pro-model at the US Open.
> I don't see a problem with that. If a sig board was actually identical and as stiff as the boards the pro ride, they wouldn't sell almost at all since the target consumers aren't pros, except for a very few, people of that caliber are sponsored and ride what they get...


I fully agree, we don’t ride like them. My point was about ‚the truth’ from the marketing by the pros.
The marketing is targeted at what is the most beneficial for the company and the revenue.
That’s why Terje has been recently dropped by Burton or Nico by Mervin before. They’ve calculated that they can make more money assigning these resources to someone else. That’s the harsh truth.


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## Thrash-Tompa (Oct 24, 2019)

fraxmental said:


> I think this is the fundament on what a vast majority of things happens in our society. And from my point of view there is a big fight that we need to win and that is the fight of being honest and not lying to yourself. But that needs a certain character to get into this fight. Because if you loose this fight in all the other aspects of your life, it will get very easy to "lie" but it needs some skils, and the society will teach you how to lie the best...and not beeing caught..that what diplomacy is.
> So yes it more about the people not about the products.
> But take the fight from inside if you want to win...it is too late to take it from the outsie.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


Any rep knows that warm feeling in the pit of his/her stomach, when a newbie comes back with a huge grin from ear-to-ear after a full day of riding in the correct boots and set-up. This is what makes new snowboarders.
Many riders unfortunately know the opposite, how a day on the hill with the buds was completely ruined by cramping feet, getting cold and wet trying to survive on the wrong sized and crappy equipment.


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## Thrash-Tompa (Oct 24, 2019)

Yeahti87 said:


> I fully agree, we don’t ride like them. My point was about ‚the truth’ from the marketing by the pros.
> The marketing is targeted at what is the most beneficial for the company and the revenue.
> That’s why Terje has been recently dropped by Burton or Nico by Mervin before. They’ve calculated that they can make more money assigning these resources to someone else. That’s the harsh truth.


We are back to the beginning here... I claim that the way Sno-boardProCamp 'market' is not the most beneficial to the company, but will actually create negative backlash. You are free to disagree, but present no proof to your argument.
Burton did not drop Terje because of Kev-n at Snowboa-dProCamp, neither did Burton - nor Mervin - when they dropped Nicolas Müller; so this is a moot point.
Or are you really saying that the big snowboard companies need to drop older pro-riders, to instead let one guy make 'reviews' where he pretends to use/like certain equipment? Is this the lone future successful business model?


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## robotfood99 (Mar 19, 2016)

Thing is, Nidecker is using social media marketing to get word-of-mouth and recognition. Not lofty, intricately crafted engagement campaigns. They aren't at that stage yet, at least not in North America. Once they establish a baseline, it's a good bet that they will look to improve the quality of their engagements. So for now, I can cut Nidecker some slack...

But I can't give SPC any because there is no excuse for not being transparent. For a channel with 'Pro' in it's name, it sure isn't acting like one. Mention if the content contains paid promotion. Put the sponsorship in writing in the video description. Not doing so makes the channel look like a product placement exercise.


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## Thrash-Tompa (Oct 24, 2019)

robotfood99 said:


> Thing is, Nidecker is using social media marketing to get word-of-mouth and recognition. Not lofty, intricately crafted engagement campaigns. They aren't at that stage yet, at least not in North America. Once they establish a baseline, it's a good bet that they will look to improve the quality of their engagements. So for now, I can cut Nidecker some slack...
> 
> But I can't give SPC any because there is no excuse for not being transparent. For a channel with 'Pro' in it's name, it sure isn't acting like one. Mention if the content contains paid promotion. Put the sponsorship in writing in the video description. Not doing so makes the channel look like a product placement exercise.


Agree there is nothing wrong with promos per se, if they don't pretend to be reviews; even though I think promos could stay on the brands own channels and they could use Yo-Tube in a more creative manner.


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## Yeahti87 (Jan 17, 2019)

Thrash-Tompa said:


> We are back to the beginning here... I claim that the way Sno-boardProCamp 'market' is not the most beneficial to the company, but will actually create negative backlash. You are free to disagree, but present no proof to your argument.
> Burton did not drop Terje because of Kev-n at Snowboa-dProCamp, neither did Burton - nor Mervin - when they dropped Nicolas Müller; so this is a moot point.
> Or are you really saying that the big snowboard companies need to drop older pro-riders, to instead let one guy make 'reviews' where he pretends to use/like certain equipment? Is this the lone future successful business model?


We are back to the message I quoted about ‘the truth’ you get from the sponsored riders.
Did I say they dropped them for a vlogger?
You are also free to disagree but you neither have a proof if it’s gonna be a drop in $$ for Nidecker.

SPC is a vlog, not a review channel.
He’s got a big fanbase, how many around bought or not I have no idea. For sure their streams are boring for me and I don’t watch anything there apart from some edits like the park laps with some pros in Zermatt. So still a sub but a very inactive one. On the other hand every friend (12 or so) I’ve brought to this sport so far has started with his channel and they watched it religioulsy. There are reasons he is appealing to newbs. I point them to other channels they can benefit from later on. They do get the initial stoke there at SPC. That’s how newbies behave. They don’t lurk here for the advice, don’t do their own research of the boards, don’t buy a shitton of gear to test it themselves. That’s the best review. I care about the product i get for my own money, not if this is a ski company like Salomon, Adidas boots or if someone is friends or enemies with a particular brand.

If you follow the reviews and are more into gear whoring, you can easily find who is biased towards what. You don’t know if it’s a paycheck, giveaways, a good relationship with the marketing managers, a good cooperation or a clash they had before.

All I’ve said is every company wants to make money.
Nidecker has apparently decided that sponsoring some vlogger’s trips and gear will increase their revenue. Time will tell if that way was a good (read financially beneficial) step for them. Everyone has their own right how to react to this. Some will boycott the company, some like me don’t give a shit that they’ve added a vlogger who isn’t a reliable source for me anyway and some will flock to the shops to get a Nidecker SPC model.

Avran has cooperated with Marhar and got his pro model he designed.

Nivek has worked with Nidecker and Arbor:








Kevin Hub


Shop with Winter sports expert Kevin Hub and get personalized recommendations to fit your needs.




www.curated.com





Is there a bias there? Who knows, right? But it’s nothing unusual and as long as the product is solid it’s fine.

Kevin from SPC will have ‘his own’ model from Nidecker. I’m sure it will be a good board cos it will be designed by the right people.

Would I want a vlogger to design a board for me? No. He has no technical knowledge Avran or Nivek have. But Kevin from the SPC doesn’t claim the reviewer status that TJ has. And while TJ is clearly sponsored by Union I find his recent reviews on point with the limited experience I’ve managed to gather riding 35 ++ top 5/10 and what not boards from various reviewers that me and my gear whoring friends simply bought with our own money.

Personally I don’t give a shit about some wars for influence (thus money) between the reviewers/snowboard channels. I would if they pushed a mediocre product but that’s not gonna be the case with Nidecker.

I believe it would be better if everyone focused on developing their own content to fit the needs of a broad audience and wipe out the competition with how the real life experience you get relates to what they say.

Hate the game, not the player. They are making their living off snowboarding so they have to play it with various strategies unfortunately.


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## Thrash-Tompa (Oct 24, 2019)

Yeahti87 said:


> We are back to the message I quoted about ‘the truth’ you get from the sponsored riders.
> Did I say they dropped them for a vlogger?
> You are also free to disagree but you neither have a proof if it’s gonna be a drop in $$ for Nidecker.
> 
> ...


Let's break down what you wrote here together:
Yes, you stated Terje and Nico was dropped, and to instead use a vlogger as it is just the way it is.
If "every friend (12 or so) I’ve brought to this sport so far has started with his channel and they watched it religioulsy", would they not benefit from hearing the truth regarding equipment... or do you mean the stoke would then be less?
You point out Avr-n and H-b have designed/worked with brands, but can you please show us the clips of when they said someone should buy that exact equipment as it's the best / their favorite? 
You talk about a vlogger designing a board, but I fail to see where this lands in my open letter?
You say you personally do not give a shit unless the product is mediocre, meaning you can tell the same 12 friends to go buy those exact Nidecker boots... as the quality is fine?
Where's the hate? Do you mean I hate the brands (when I say I prefer them) or that I must hate the player (an individual I do not know personally), just to voice my opinion?

When you finish with "They are making their living off snowboarding so they have to play it with various strategies unfortunately"... I wonder why "unfortunate"... what these "various strategies" must be, what dictates which strategy to use... and why telling lies have to be superior to telling the truth?
I have given examples of why I think the 'used-car-salesman' will not work in the long game, but here it comes again:
If you fool a new rider into buying the wrong boots, resulting with him/her having a crap day on the hill... it will not make them avid snowboarders that want to invest more money in this sport/culture!
You say I am wrong, which then means: yes, you should / have to fool new riders into buying the wrong equipment, or else you will not make $$

Don't mistake this discussion as being against you as a person, I just don't find any valid arguments in your text adressing the points of this open letter.


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## Craig64 (Jul 16, 2015)

Thrash-Tompa said:


> Let's break down what you wrote here together:
> Yes, you stated Terje and Nico was dropped, and to instead use a vlogger as it is just the way it is.
> If "every friend (12 or so) I’ve brought to this sport so far has started with his channel and they watched it religioulsy", would they not benefit from hearing the truth regarding equipment... or do you mean the stoke would then be less?
> You point out Avr-n and H-b have designed/worked with brands, but can you please show us the clips of when they said someone should buy that exact equipment as it's the best / their favorite?
> ...


So what your wishing for is someone to independently and professionally Review Snowboards/Outerwear etc that has absolutely zero affiliation with any Brands, is not paid for by any Brands, is able to somehow independently source all the latest snowboards/outerwear without any sponsorship assistance from any Brands, create and finance a professional review format with Video by himself/with the assistance of a camera operator whilst somehow maintaining a living and paying the bills to enable the ability to do all of this.


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## robotfood99 (Mar 19, 2016)

Craig64 said:


> So what your wishing for is someone to independently and professionally Review Snowboards/Outerwear etc that has absolutely zero affiliation with any Brands, is not paid for by any Brands, is able to somehow independently source all the latest snowboards/outerwear without any sponsorship assistance from any Brands, create and finance a professional review format with Video by himself/with the assistance of a camera operator whilst somehow maintaining a living and paying the bills to enable the ability to do all of this.


Wait, are you talking about yourself, Craig? 

Seriously tho, this is a huge grey area in marketing and I wish the channels emplyed a more solid transparency policy. That solves most issues, real or perceived.


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## Craig64 (Jul 16, 2015)

robotfood99 said:


> Wait, are you talking about yourself, Craig?
> 
> Seriously tho, this is a huge grey area in marketing and I wish the channels emplyed a more solid transparency policy. That solves most issues, real or perceived.


If I was a multimillionaire and had heaps of spare time it may be possible. More than likely I'd probably just snowboard all over the World......, living the endless Winter. The small handful of reviews I do is from gear I paid for by myself. I'm lucky, as I'm old enough (almost retired) and have a decent income stream/job that I can afford to do this. The likes of TJ, SPC, Avran, TGR, Buckhouse, Tommie Bennett, Knapton, Malcolm Moore etc all have the technical skill, ability and presence to create decent content however I'm pretty sure none of these guys are rolling around in the cash from just doing their YT channels. Sponsorship would be a massive boost for their income stream. In this day an age, life's definitely not cheap.


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## robotfood99 (Mar 19, 2016)

Craig64 said:


> If I was a multimillionaire and had heaps of spare time it may be possible. More than likely I'd probably just snowboard all over the World......, living the endless Winter. The small handful of reviews I do is from gear I paid for by myself. I'm lucky, as I'm old enough (almost retired) and have a decent income stream/job that I can afford to do this. The likes of TJ, SPC, Avran, TGR, Buckhouse, Tommie Bennett, Knapton, Malcolm Moore etc all have the technical skill, ability and presence to create decent content however I'm pretty sure none of these guys are rolling around in the cash from just doing their YT channels. Sponsorship would be a massive boost for their income stream. In this day an age, life's definitely not cheap.


Right. And no one would be against their monetizing their reach. It's just that they need to say when something is a paid promotion so the viewers can decide for themselves. Technically, Kevin did announce the sponsorship in a live chat, but that was it. In the videos since there is no mention that the video includes paid promotion or 'is brought to you by Nidecker.' If someone who was not a subscriber were to get to his boot video because he/she was looking for new boots, how is he/she to know that the video was a product plug? By all means, monetize. But monetize openly and fairly.


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## RobPowderjunkie (Oct 7, 2021)

Craig64 said:


> If I was a multimillionaire and had heaps of spare time it may be possible. More than likely I'd probably just snowboard all over the World......, *living the endless Winter*. The small handful of reviews I do is from gear I paid for by myself. I'm lucky, as I'm old enough (almost retired) and have a decent income stream/job that I can afford to do this. The likes of TJ, SPC, Avran, TGR, Buckhouse, Tommie Bennett, Knapton, Malcolm Moore etc all have the technical skill, ability and presence to create decent content however I'm pretty sure none of these guys are rolling around in the cash from just doing their YT channels. Sponsorship would be a massive boost for their income stream. In this day an age, life's definitely not cheap.


Living the endless winter.... that would be a dream!! lol


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## Nivek (Jan 24, 2008)

Craig64 said:


> So what your wishing for is someone to independently and professionally Review Snowboards/Outerwear etc that has absolutely zero affiliation with any Brands, is not paid for by any Brands, is able to somehow independently source all the latest snowboards/outerwear without any sponsorship assistance from any Brands, create and finance a professional review format with Video by himself/with the assistance of a camera operator whilst somehow maintaining a living and paying the bills to enable the ability to do all of this.


This is literally Angry minus the camerman and outerwear...


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## CocaCola Kicker (Jan 30, 2019)

We didnt realize what a talented genius Mat Guf was until fake Mat Guf took over


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## Rip154 (Sep 23, 2017)

What I expect from the Nideckers though, is that they follow up on their vloggers and educate them, review the information coming out, and get their brandnames in an intro in every log or something.


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## Thrash-Tompa (Oct 24, 2019)

Craig64 said:


> So what your wishing for is someone to independently and professionally Review Snowboards/Outerwear etc that has absolutely zero affiliation with any Brands, is not paid for by any Brands, is able to somehow independently source all the latest snowboards/outerwear without any sponsorship assistance from any Brands, create and finance a professional review format with Video by himself/with the assistance of a camera operator whilst somehow maintaining a living and paying the bills to enable the ability to do all of this.


Please show me where in my text you found these points?
Basically all I say is that K-vin don't need to lie, acting like a promo is a review... and he/they can and should change that.


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## Thrash-Tompa (Oct 24, 2019)

Craig64 said:


> If I was a multimillionaire and had heaps of spare time it may be possible. More than likely I'd probably just snowboard all over the World......, living the endless Winter. The small handful of reviews I do is from gear I paid for by myself. I'm lucky, as I'm old enough (almost retired) and have a decent income stream/job that I can afford to do this. The likes of TJ, SPC, Avran, TGR, Buckhouse, Tommie Bennett, Knapton, Malcolm Moore etc all have the technical skill, ability and presence to create decent content however I'm pretty sure none of these guys are rolling around in the cash from just doing their YT channels. Sponsorship would be a massive boost for their income stream. In this day an age, life's definitely not cheap.


So one has to be a billionaire to tell the truth, and sponsored promos have to be portrayed as personal reviews?


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## MrDavey2Shoes (Mar 5, 2018)

Its a shame to see Jones going this route, but I suppose they're tired of being a brand you learn about after you've started riding and want to be an brand you know about when you're entering the sport. I get it. I hate it.


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## Thrash-Tompa (Oct 24, 2019)

Here is an example where Kn-t was balancing on the right side of what is clearly a N-tro promo. By them showing the logo, not calling it a review in the naming of the clip or tags, him saying "we" (meaning the company) and just talking about the different parts of the boot without falling in the trap of lying about his personal preferences and so on... proving that such can be done: 



(I am not saying Kn-t is always right, or N-tro is flawless or whatever - just picked a quick example)

Here M-tt was doing the opposite with a pro-rider:





Now... can you see/feel any difference? Do you still think one 'have to' be a shill to sell product?

I am NOT saying these are perfect examples, that I know best or should dictate things... I am just asking for Jeremy, Mike and TNG to look into things and change up!


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## lab49232 (Sep 13, 2011)

Nivek said:


> I give up on the grounds of poor reading comprehension.


Ouch... So even after you just admitted that you guys we're blatantly making up stuff about Mervin because they wouldn't let you test product for free and you're gonna come back with "why you against us product reviewers?" i think you answered yourself


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## lab49232 (Sep 13, 2011)

Thrash-Tompa said:


> Getting paid is not the issue here... it's the difference of being honest or lying.
> If Nivek told us that every new board/binding/boot he tried was the very best... his favorite... then you would have an argument here.


And if Nivek uses his platform to shit on a product he hasn't ridden, tested or tried, as he just admitted, that becomes equally problematic. Fake negative reviews are just as bad as fake positive wouldn't you agree?


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## Thrash-Tompa (Oct 24, 2019)

MrDavey2Shoes said:


> Its a shame to see Jones going this route, but I suppose they're tired of being a brand you learn about after you've started riding and want to be an brand you know about when you're entering the sport. I get it. I hate it.


Did not work for Morrow or Lamar and many others, mainly just Burton and the ski brands (K2, Salomon) found their way into the different ---Marts; but even them had to start selling direct from their webpage.

I think TNG will try to maybe go that route with Nidecker (and swallow Rome like they did Flow) then market Jones towards Rad Dads and freeriders, Bataleon towards youth and keep Yes as their punk rock alternative brand... but then again, who knows!?


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## Thrash-Tompa (Oct 24, 2019)

lab49232 said:


> And if Nivek uses his platform to shit on a product he hasn't ridden, tested or tried, as he just admitted, that becomes equally problematic. Fake negative reviews are just as bad as fake positive wouldn't you agree?


If so, fake would always be fake...


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## Thrash-Tompa (Oct 24, 2019)

lab49232 said:


> And if Nivek uses his platform to shit on a product he hasn't ridden, tested or tried, as he just admitted, that becomes equally problematic. Fake negative reviews are just as bad as fake positive wouldn't you agree?


If you guys have some personal beef, please take that sh-t elsewhere


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## Nivek (Jan 24, 2008)

lab49232 said:


> Ouch... So even after you just admitted that you guys we're blatantly making up stuff about Mervin because they wouldn't let you test product for free and you're gonna come back with "why you against us product reviewers?" i think you answered yourself





lab49232 said:


> And if Nivek uses his platform to shit on a product he hasn't ridden, tested or tried, as he just admitted, that becomes equally problematic. Fake negative reviews are just as bad as fake positive wouldn't you agree?


Again, not what I said. I don't know guy. Read again? I have been clear. You refuse to read my words as they were written. I can't help you.


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## Nivek (Jan 24, 2008)

Thrash-Tompa said:


> If you guys have some personal beef, please take that sh-t elsewhere


I just don't appreciate the slander. I don't know this guy from any other generic forum member. Maybe I should just yell TROLL and disengage. I'm really not worried about him impacting my life, like at all.


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## Yeahti87 (Jan 17, 2019)

Thrash-Tompa said:


> Yes, you stated Terje and Nico was dropped, and to instead use a vlogger as it is just the way it is.


You literally quote me with my previous statements that already negate what you are implying here. I didn’t say at any point Burton/Mervin dropped Terje/Nico for a vlogger Kevin.


Thrash-Tompa said:


> If "every friend (12 or so) I’ve brought to this sport so far has started with his channel and they watched it religioulsy", would they not benefit from hearing the truth regarding equipment... or do you mean the stoke would then be less?


They watch it as a vlog. It’s relatable. It has positive vibes. For the gear they type in the gear name in the already open yt textbox and check what pops up there. And they do find the reviews. My friends ride Katanas/Burton/Flux, not what Kevin was riding for quite a long time - Mervin and Union. They were his sponsors before, last year it was already the Nidecker group. When you think about this right now we actually have a step in the right direction as this is an open cooperation that he announced.


Thrash-Tompa said:


> You point out Avr-n and H-b have designed/worked with brands, but can you please show us the clips of when they said someone should buy that exact equipment as it's the best / their favorite?


Any favourite, top 5, 10, I ride this, I own this and what not from ANY reviewer is pushing the product? Have you seen the Orca hype? Because most, if not all reviewers, were overhyping it as it was selling at a full price with a % from the affiliates. They need to make some money to create the content. Called to be exceptional at carving, powder riding, even viable in the park. Not saying it’s a bad board but there is a pretty common agreement from the enthusiasts here that it was overhyped.


Thrash-Tompa said:


> You talk about a vlogger designing a board, but I fail to see where this lands in my open letter?
> You say you personally do not give a shit unless the product is mediocre, meaning you can tell the same 12 friends to go buy those exact Nidecker boots... as the quality is fine?


No, don’t twist my words again. I talked about vlogger slapping his logo on a board that the proper R&D team has designed. There is plenty of good products. What Kevin shows in the video is what happens in most shops actually. Including my first boots purchase. Will a shop tell you ‚hey, it’s not your foot shape, go to the competitors to get your mondo’. Sounds unlikely? They’ll just size it up and let them happily ride their oversized boots they are comfortable in instead of risking their complaints on how they were pushed in a too small size and potentially damaging their reputation as a shop. That’s why people are shocked over here when told they are 1.5 size smaller but in a wrong boot.


Thrash-Tompa said:


> Where's the hate? Do you mean I hate the brands (when I say I prefer them) or that I must hate the player (an individual I do not know personally), just to voice my opinion?


Hate the game, not the player. That’s a proverb. The game here is how capitalism works. People have already pointed this out here.


Thrash-Tompa said:


> When you finish with "They are making their living off snowboarding so they have to play it with various strategies unfortunately"... I wonder why "unfortunate"... what these "various strategies" must be, what dictates which strategy to use... and why telling lies have to be superior to telling the truth?


Unfortunately because some naively expect ‚the truth’ (while to be honest there is no truth here, there is no arbitrary ‚the best board’ or whatever, it’s subjective), a completely independent take. Heck, they change their mind about the very same board. What for? For pushing new products that it would be nice to push a bit more now? Or the review was wrong? Where’s the truth?

I think Nidecker will actually welcome your constructive feedback if you have more supporters for this signed on as this might be taken into consideration on how to fine tune their strategy. Not to drop it.


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## Thrash-Tompa (Oct 24, 2019)

Nivek said:


> I just don't appreciate the slander. I don't know this guy from any other generic forum member. Maybe I should just yell TROLL and disengage. I'm really not worried about him impacting my life, like at all.


Yes, it is difficult do discuss anything real at most forums... sadly many threads just degrade into some kind of he said / she said bs.


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## Thrash-Tompa (Oct 24, 2019)

Yeahti87 said:


> You literally quote me with my previous statements that already negate what you are implying here. I didn’t say at any point Burton/Mervin dropped Terje/Nico for a vlogger Kevin.
> 
> They watch it as a vlog. It’s relatable. It has positive vibes. For the gear they type in the gear name in the already open yt textbox and check what pops up there. And they do find the reviews. My friends ride Katanas/Burton/Flux, not what Kevin was riding for quite a long time - Mervin and Union. They were his sponsors before, last year it was already the Nidecker group. When you think about this right now we actually have a step in the right direction as this is an open cooperation that he announced.
> 
> ...


You are helping by voicing your opinion.
Not my intent to twist your words, so think we both have went as far as we need on this topic.


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## Thrash-Tompa (Oct 24, 2019)

I'd say that 2000 eyeballs, 100 posts and 1 email from a company... after about 2 days, means at least some people take notice


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## jc20 (Mar 29, 2020)

Thrash-Tompa said:


> Thanks for your input!
> However I never said it was something new, so read my post again... as I say this old business model will just hurt them in the end.
> Your estimation regarding my understanding is incorrect.
> Half the world does not ride head-to-toe Burton and support energy drink companies, not even half the US. You need to travel and ride more and watch less Youtube... even if you prefer wearing nothing but underpants.
> ...


I’m obviously talking about people in YouTube videos wearing burton gear. All my examples are YouTube videos, and the topic is about YouTube videos, cmon man.

Telling me to ride more is a classic snowboard forum personal attack. Doesn’t really help your message to start an “open letter” and then start slinging mud.

That’s my point exactly - YouTube content is not free, you agree with this - you never really know who is pulling the strings and the motivations behind videos. Use the platform knowing that, as you already seem to and understand all social media is essentially advertising.

The only difference between spc and trice is scale. 

Seems your only real grievenece is that spc should say he’s sponsored at the start of every video - sure why not. However soon all his videos will be nidecker and it will be pretty obvious he’s either sponsored or just only rides one company (pretty common). His boots video is about how to pick your boots, it’s not even a review? His board video isn’t a review he’s just showing what he got and talking about it. 

I’m not engaging further as you keep insulting people and only half reading what they say anyway.

Good luck in your crusade against advertising and product placement in social media.


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## NT.Thunder (Jan 4, 2020)

Nivek said:


> Also the fact he says he fits snowboard boots to his shoe size is laughable.


I wish he said that at the start of the video so i didn't have to waste so much time watching it - and just to think if he visited the forum here the first thing everyone would've done was to have him fitted out in the correct size boots.......


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## lab49232 (Sep 13, 2011)

jc20 said:


> I’m obviously talking about people in YouTube videos wearing burton gear. All my examples are YouTube videos, and the topic is about YouTube videos, cmon man.
> 
> Telling me to ride more is a classic snowboard forum personal attack. Doesn’t really help your message to start an “open letter” and then start slinging mud.
> 
> ...


It's really ironic because this is the most obvious example of paid pitch which some people are like boo, yet all the other information they get, brands they love/hate, opinions on sites, all of it is because of the exact same thing only done more subtly so it's not so in your face. 

"You can trick me in to buying things but don't make it obvious you're tricking me in to buying things, I want to pretend I created my purchasing choice and product opinions by myself" even though it was always and will almost always be paid customer acquisition.


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## CocaCola Kicker (Jan 30, 2019)

Kevin is like Orson Welles compared to Buckhouse


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## Thrash-Tompa (Oct 24, 2019)

jc20 said:


> I’m obviously talking about people in YouTube videos wearing burton gear. All my examples are YouTube videos, and the topic is about YouTube videos, cmon man.
> 
> Telling me to ride more is a classic snowboard forum personal attack. Doesn’t really help your message to start an “open letter” and then start slinging mud.
> 
> ...


Not into personal attacks and this is not a crusade.
I encourage you to keep speaking your mind, as will I.


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## Thrash-Tompa (Oct 24, 2019)

NT.Thunder said:


> I wish he said that at the start of the video so i didn't have to waste so much time watching it - and just to think if he visited the forum here the first thing everyone would've done was to have him fitted out in the correct size boots.......


I find boot-fit to be extremely difficult!
Have tried 'the correct' way according to this forum, with mondopoint length and width against a wall and posting photos etc, and the 'correct' model (Burton Photon wide in 275) just did not fit me (posted photo evidence of the liner having gaps and and other issues). And it is not an performance fit / comfort fit thing. 
Have owned many boots since I started riding in 1988, and I still have problems finding the right boot model (and no, my feet are not super weird or anything).
For now, and for me personally, my sneaker size IS actually the best indicator to finding a boot with some performance AND comfort.
Agree with anyone saying one really can not give general boot-fit advice, only speak about build materials and functions of a brand and model.


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## Thrash-Tompa (Oct 24, 2019)

lab49232 said:


> It's really ironic because this is the most obvious example of paid pitch which some people are like boo, yet all the other information they get, brands they love/hate, opinions on sites, all of it is because of the exact same thing only done more subtly so it's not so in your face.
> 
> "You can trick me in to buying things but don't make it obvious you're tricking me in to buying things, I want to pretend I created my purchasing choice and product opinions by myself" even though it was always and will almost always be paid customer acquisition.


I do not agree.
I argue it IS possible to sell product without trying to 'trick' anyone.
However I agree there is an brand bias within most riders, making some a bit blind and more prone to pretend.


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## Thrash-Tompa (Oct 24, 2019)

CocaCola Kicker said:


> Kevin is like Orson Welles compared to Buckhouse


I think Snowb-ardProCamp and B-ard Archive et al are great platforms to reach many riders, and that K-vin and TJ-y among others can do great things for Snowboarding.
"with great power comes great responsibility"


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## robotfood99 (Mar 19, 2016)

jc20 said:


> The only difference between spc and trice is scale.


Agreed on the scale. But that isn't all. One is an industry pro with an open profile that clearly states his sponsors. The other is a vlogger who doesn't and pretends he forms his own opinions. It's this pretend part that I don't like. I don't mind that he takes sponsorship deals. That's his prerogative and should be lauded for it. But I also can't help but think that he ought to be more open about it. 

Bullshit is bullshit no matter how you spin it. Just because YouTube /internet is full of it does not make it right for creators to adopt a low standard and outright lies. Yes, in the end, it is buyer beware but the buyer shouldn't have to be ridiculed for wanting the creators to be more transparent with the source of their 'opinions.'


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## Thrash-Tompa (Oct 24, 2019)

robotfood99 said:


> Agreed on the scale. But that isn't all. One is an industry pro with an open profile that clearly states his sponsors. The other is a vlogger who doesn't and pretends he forms his own opinions. It's this pretend part that I don't like. I don't mind that he takes sponsorship deals. That's his prerogative and should be lauded for it. But I also can't help but think that he ought to be more open about it.
> 
> Bullshit is bullshit no matter how you spin it. Just because YouTube /internet is full of it does not make it right for creators to adopt a low standard and outright lies. Yes, in the end, it is buyer beware but the buyer shouldn't have to be ridiculed for wanting the creators to be more transparent with the source of their 'opinions.'


'Ethics' is one of the five clickable options on the Jones snowboards homepage, which is one reason I in part addressed this letter towards Jeremy.


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## Manicmouse (Apr 7, 2014)

Sorry is that Jones or J-nes?


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## Thrash-Tompa (Oct 24, 2019)

Manicmouse said:


> Sorry is that Jones or J-nes?


Depends...
If one follow Netiquette protocols while discussing a third party, one should always try to implement ambiguity while spelling.
If one directs what is written towards a certain entity, one should clearly spell out the name of said player.


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## bseracka (Nov 14, 2011)

@Thrash-Tompa: multi quote, please learn to use it. You don’t need 5 separate posts to get out all of your responses. Since you mentioned Netiquette maybe try following it.


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## Manicmouse (Apr 7, 2014)

Thrash-Tompa said:


> Depends...
> If one follow Netiquette protocols while discussing a third party, one should always try to implement ambiguity while spelling.
> If one directs what is written towards a certain entity, one should clearly spell out the name of said player.


You're in a terribly small minority if you're using those sort of rules!


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## Thrash-Tompa (Oct 24, 2019)

Manicmouse said:


> You're in a terribly small minority if you're using those sort of rules!


Mos Def.
But as an (poor) example: billions and billions of flies, still can't convince me that the taste of sh-t must be wonderful. 

And think of this: greatness is usually reserved for only a terribly small minority as well...


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## Thrash-Tompa (Oct 24, 2019)

bseracka said:


> @Thrash-Tompa: multi quote, please learn to use it. You don’t need 5 separate posts to get out all of your responses. Since you mentioned Netiquette maybe try following it.


You have a point!
But if the end result would be to maybe keep this thread alive and hopefully make more people get involved... I really don't see whom it might hurt to just read a little bit more.


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## Snowghost (Dec 18, 2017)

Craig64 said:


> This chick is hot.


“Enter witty inappropriate joke here”


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## Sudden_Death (Mar 23, 2011)

I do a bit of YouTube stuff in an unrelated subject and am too lazy to read the whole thread so I don't know if this has been brought up. In every video these guy do that has anything a company sent free of charge it has to be disclosed *VERY *clearly and early in the video description. In the example video he does not include this and if that is free gear or he's being paid to talk about it he's breaking FTC guidelines as well YouTube's TOS and the channel should receive a strike or worse.

This isn't even getting into the morals of shilling which is I think the true spirit of this thread.

Edit: He also needs disclosures for every affiliate link he has posted. That might take him a while.


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## SnowDragon (Apr 23, 2012)

Thrash-Tompa said:


> I am old enough to think for myself, so don't need Avran or anyone else to tell me what's what... but I agree with him, you and anyone else that understands the big picture in this matter.


Nobody is forced to follow any online reviewers' recommendations. You may be old enough to know what's what as you say, but are you wealthy enough to purchase all of the boards that these reviewers ride and invest the time to ride them to decide which one(s) to keep and which to sell (at a loss)?

Most people can't do that, and many appreciate the reviewers who "seem" to be honest. There may be few of them, but they can be helpful for many who have a myriad selection of snowboards from which to choose and no ability to demo them all.


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