# Magne-Traction Vs. Quickrip and frostbite edges!?!?



## Dean Winchester (Jan 20, 2015)

And I live on the Ice coast btw. In NC


----------



## Extazy (Feb 27, 2014)

Some people say Magne is the shit, some people say it doesnt do anything. I am the one who feels like it's useless.


----------



## Dean Winchester (Jan 20, 2015)

My buddy has a skate banana and swears by the edge hold but Idk if he is being honest or just justifying his purchase lol.


----------



## david_z (Dec 14, 2009)

Personally I prefer the edge tech on Arbors and Marhars to Magnetraction.


----------



## triumph.man (Feb 3, 2012)

david_z said:


> Personally I prefer the edge tech on Arbors and Marhars to Magnetraction.


If griptech (arbor) is what u are referring to, and this will be ur only board, I would go w/ a hybrid-cam profile.


----------



## ItchEtrigR (Jan 1, 2012)

Dunno about all the others but Burtons frostbite does fuck all.

That said some of the best edge hold on crusty hard pack has been on my longer stiffer boards with shallower sidecut.


----------



## Irahi (May 19, 2011)

Fresh edges and natural contact length mean more than wavy edges ever will on ice. Get yourself an edge sharpening tool and a camber deck, and enjoy your newfound ability to not be terrified of blue patches on the ground.


----------



## flipstah (Feb 3, 2015)

Funny enough, I watched a test done by The House last night.


----------



## totalsiib (Oct 9, 2014)

I live in the east coast as well. I never tried quickrip or frostbite but used to own a board with mag tech, a t rice pro. Not much (if any) difference from the camber boards that I have tried before. In my opinion you don't need any fancy tech to deal with ice.


----------



## flipstah (Feb 3, 2015)

If you think about edge technology, how come hockey skate edges aren't serated? If it was that good at stopping, I'm sure big boys like Bauer would've somehow incorporated seration in their blades but from what I've seen, boot technology is the one that makes the difference.

Keep it sharp, have comfy boots, and ride till the sun sets.


----------



## david_z (Dec 14, 2009)

triumph.man said:


> If griptech (arbor) is what u are referring to, and this will be ur only board, I would go w/ a hybrid-cam profile.


Arbor doesn't make a hybrid shape.

Marhar makes hybrid shapes but without double-checking their catalog, I think they only put that edge tech on their rocker shapes.

I think if you want shaped edges and a hybrid, you've gotta go Mervin.


----------



## Dean Winchester (Jan 20, 2015)

I love that video but it didnt help me much ...the skate banana and the park pickle have the same magne traction apparently but the rocker of the banana makes the guy wreck I think. But the jib saw is hybrid camber.....I just hope it has the same edges as the park pickle..

Like the attack banana for instance only has .5 magne traction....I wonder what the Jibsaw has...or if its full on magne


----------



## Dean Winchester (Jan 20, 2015)

flipstah said:


> If you think about edge technology, how come hockey skate edges aren't serated? If it was that good at stopping, I'm sure big boys like Bauer would've somehow incorporated seration in their blades but from what I've seen, boot technology is the one that makes the difference.
> 
> Keep it sharp, have comfy boots, and ride till the sun sets.



I saw a video about that and what it said was that the reason they can use that is because a hockey rink is smooth and flat....and a mountain is not...Idk if thats the reason or not but thats what the video said...makes you think tho...because hockey players will for sure need the best edge hold


----------



## david_z (Dec 14, 2009)

flipstah said:


> If you think about edge technology, how come hockey skate edges aren't serated? If it was that good at stopping, I'm sure big boys like Bauer would've somehow incorporated seration in their blades


You're missing the point...

A hockey skate, the entire running length of the blade (more or less) is in contact with the surface of the rink, whether you're skating or stopping it's the full length of the (straight) blade in contact with the ice. The blade arguably doesn't "flex" in any meaningful sense of the word and you don't have "contact points" to worry about because the entire edge is in contact at all times.

So, it's not that "serration = better stopping" is somehow intrinsic to the serration itself, but rather the physics behind the way a snowboard differs from an ice skate, and how rocker differs from camber.

On a traditional camber shape, the board flexes and the arc of the sidecut engages. This puts more or less the full effective edge in contact with the surface and there is the most pressure created by the boards natural shape (camber) being counter to the direction of the flex which exerts on the contact points towrads nose/tail.

Rocker shapes don't work this way -- the outermost contact points exert less pressure because of the shape of the board, so they add extra contact points to help distribute that pressure.

The-House actually does a decent job explaining MTX here:





> On a traditional snowboard, most of the pressure is pushed through the feet down and out to the widest part of the board, the contact points of the tip and tail. The least amount of pressure is between the feet. Magne-Traction maximizes the edge pressure between the feet so now you can ride with more control in difficult situations. Conventional skis and snowboards have two contact points. Magne-Traction boards have seven contact points. With Magne-Traction when your two outside contact points lose grip, you’ve still got five more to take over.


Arbor's grip tech IMO is more predictable which is why I liked it better. By putting only two additional contact points directly underfoot, where you can lever it most effectively. This is different than MTX which has like 7 contact points running the length of the edge, and sometimes can be "grabby".


----------



## f00bar (Mar 6, 2014)

I can't comment on other systems, however for someone with less than a years riding (30 years skiing so definitely understand what its like to not be in control on ice) I will say that the magnetraction has handled some pretty horrid east coast early season conditions exceedingly well.

Based on posts I'm going to assume it is no better than a full camber board. However, if you don't want a full camber and want a rocker I think it does a great job in my experience.


----------



## tanscrazydaisy (Mar 11, 2013)

flipstah said:


> If you think about edge technology, how come hockey skate edges aren't serated? If it was that good at stopping, I'm sure big boys like Bauer would've somehow incorporated seration in their blades but from what I've seen, boot technology is the one that makes the difference.
> 
> Keep it sharp, have comfy boots, and ride till the sun sets.


figure skates have the toe pick (which hockey skates do not), which is serrated to give the skater that extra momentary traction to do jumps and other manuevers.


----------



## Dean Winchester (Jan 20, 2015)

This is all helping really well...I already ordered the Jibsaw....I hear it has a mellower magne traction that the skate banana BUT...it is hybrid camber so it should do good on ice I would think....I hope


----------



## larrytbull (Oct 30, 2013)

I'll have to agree with david_z on griptech from arbor, and on arc from marhar.
they have worked well for me in the east coast.
I have no experience with a camber board, I only have full rocker or flat rocker.

What I found interesting is that on the houses video, the arbor rocker board seemed to be just as capable on the ice as the camber board. and even seemed to be better than the hybrid camber boards. I wished that the house would have done a better job at ranking them, as well as rating where each edge tech failed or excelled, : ie. jumps or turns..... which would then give a rider a better idea of what tech they wanted

BA, Not sure if you have done this type of a bake off yet?

also checking marhar catalog, the archaic has the hybrid and attack arc
Marhar Snowboards I Archaic


----------



## blackbeard (Nov 24, 2011)

I have a Rossi One Magtek and do most of my boarding on the East Coast. Came from a Ride Machete and I can tell a signicant different in the edge hold, especially on ice. On the rare occassion, I find it too grippy, maybe once every 2 or 3 days out at the most.

You'll like the Jibsaw, I've heard great things.


----------



## Dean Winchester (Jan 20, 2015)

I think I will like it ...I hope its good on jumps....what is the difference in "Magne-traction" and "Magne-Traction 7S" or are they both the same thing ???


----------



## Dean Winchester (Jan 20, 2015)

Oh and does anyone know if there is any difference in the 2014 Jibsaw and the 2015 Jibsaw?


----------



## hightyme (Mar 11, 2014)

*Mag FTW*

I have both the 2014 Rossignol Jibsaw & 2013 Rome Butterknife.
The Rossi's Mag-7S is definitely the better of the two for edge hold. 
The QuickRip is very capable of decent edge hold but does micro-wash a little.


----------



## Dean Winchester (Jan 20, 2015)

hightyme said:


> I have both the 2014 Rossignol Jibsaw & 2013 Rome Butterknife.
> The Rossi's Mag-7S is definitely the better of the two for edge hold.
> The QuickRip is very capable of decent edge hold but does micro-wash a little.


Sweet someone with the board I ordered lol ...Is it good on jumps ? and how heavy is it ? last question lol is Mag 7S the same as just Magne traction likes on the travis rice lib tech ?


----------



## hightyme (Mar 11, 2014)

Dean Winchester said:


> Sweet someone with the board I ordered lol ...Is it good on jumps ? and how heavy is it ? last question lol is Mag 7S the same as just Magne traction likes on the travis rice lib tech ?


The board is on the light side of average, but about average.
It's decent on jumps considering the camber.
Only odd thing is; it's rated as a stiff board but is rather soft.
The Mag is the same 7 contact points as Libs & GNUs but the "S" refers to the contact points being half the size of traditional Mag. 
Great board for edge hold


----------



## Dean Winchester (Jan 20, 2015)

Good....thanks man Im glad you have one. I bought it cause on Evo.com they said it was for air rats and I love to jump. Im not the best yet and the mountains around here only have max 25ft kickers so its not like ill be hitting huge air lol. Thanks man


----------



## SnowDragon (Apr 23, 2012)

I think the camber fanboys in this thread have not ridden a mag edge board.

I ride east coast hardpack/ice.
I learned on camber boards and rode them for my first few years.
Got tired of slipping out on ice.
Switched to a Lib with magnetraction.
Haven't regretted that decision at all. It IS the best at edge grip.

Yesterday I rode a Never Summer Cobra for the first time. First thing I noticed was the drop in edge grip versus my Lib TRS.


----------



## Dean Winchester (Jan 20, 2015)

GreyDragon said:


> I think the camber fanboys in this thread have not ridden a mag edge board.
> 
> I ride east coast hardpack/ice.
> I learned on camber boards and rode them for my first few years.
> ...


But the Jibsaw has the same edges dont they ? Both magnetraction


----------



## SnowDragon (Apr 23, 2012)

As hightyme said, Rossi's mag has shorter "bumps" than Lib's.
I haven't ridden a Rossi with the 7s so I can't comment.

They may use shorter bumps to address the comments about full mag being too grabby in soft snow.


----------



## danzo (Nov 19, 2012)

I personally ride a Libtech stick and can say that having Mag increases confidence big time compared to traditional camber boards I've ridden.

With that being said, I think a lot of it has to do with the C2 also. The camber underneath your feet adds this dampening effect which allows you to really push your weight into your edges which I think ultimately amplifies the Mag effect.

I haven't had another board that allows me to put all my weight forward pretty much 100% of the time without feeling like I'm doing to die, so I definitely vouch for mag tech.






In theory though, Frostbite tech should offer the equivalent seeing it offers ample serration directly under your feet which if you think about it... is really where all the action happens in snowboarding. I wouldn't be surprised if Frostbite and Mag boards have similar surface areas.

Quickrip on the other hand... looks like a gimmick. How is a little extra point on your contact point going to do anything at the speeds intermediate-advanced boarders go at?


----------



## taco tuesday (Jul 26, 2014)

GreyDragon said:


> I think the camber fanboys in this thread have not ridden a mag edge board.
> 
> I ride east coast hardpack/ice.
> I learned on camber boards and rode them for my first few years.
> ...


I think I have to agree with this. I have a 12/13 gnu billygoat. It is c2btx and has mellow mag(mag .5). It grips Ice way better than several camber board that I have ridden. I understand that there is more to it than just edge tech(some of those camber boards were slightly softer than the billy goat) but i was surpised to find myself literally carving on some shitty solid early season ice with the gnu, dragging my uphill hand on the ground and not slipping out. Mag works. Thankfully it has been snowing a lot lately and I haven't seen much ice for a while. Sharp edges don't hurt either though, regardless of profile or edge shape.


----------



## JonSnow (Jul 24, 2013)

I would also agree with greydragon.

I came from a stiff camber (Ride Theory) deck to a T. Rice Pro. At first I wasn't much of a fan of magnetraction and thought that the wavy edges were slowing me down without providing any noticeable benefit.

However, I recently went to Killington for a weekend and it was extremely icy. I was constantly washing out on my camber deck the first day. As soon as one of the contact points (tip or tail) slipped I would lose complete control. It was one of my worst days on the mountain and I had no confidence to go fast cause I could not commit to a hard edge without washing out. It was so bad that I even took it into the rental shop to get it professionally sharpened. I don't think they did the best job sharpening the board, but it made no difference, I still had very little control.

Second day out I took my T. Rice, and oh what a difference. There were still a couple times that I washed out, but overall I had so much more control and was able to go a lot faster confidently.


----------



## Ravaging Rami (Mar 11, 2014)

I agree with GreyDragon and JonSnow. I used to have a K2 camber deck and switched last season to a T.Rice Pro. I live in the midwest and face ice 9 times out of 10. Having Magnetraction has definitely improved my edge confidence as well as reduced slipping or washing out. I'm not saying it's necessary for everywhere you ride, but if you ride Ice Coast or man made snow (it's really ice) in the midwest, magnetraction will definitely benefit you.


----------



## poutanen (Dec 22, 2011)

How many race boards have wavy edges? Exactly...

Best way of dealing with the ice? Find a run with snow on it! I grew up in Ontarible, and ride frequently at a resort that most people describe as "icy"...

It's all about effective edge baby!


----------



## Demi9OD (Dec 23, 2014)

poutanen said:


> How many race boards have wavy edges? Exactly...
> 
> Best way of dealing with the ice? Find a run with snow on it! I grew up in Ontarible, and ride frequently at a resort that most people describe as "icy"...
> 
> It's all about effective edge baby!


Those guys can't sacrifice the milliseconds that wavy edges would add to their lap time in the name of grip.


----------



## Extazy (Feb 27, 2014)

I actually prefer sharp edges of my burton love (camber profile) to magnetraction on my Gnu carbon credit (rocker).

But I like to carve so maybe I just like feeling of carving on camber profile and that's why i ride it more.


----------



## poutanen (Dec 22, 2011)

Demi9OD said:


> Those guys can't sacrifice the milliseconds that wavy edges would add to their lap time in the name of grip.


They need MORE grip than us because they're riding faster, turning harder, and a loss of grip equals a loss of time. They ride long, cambered, long sidecut radius boards. Even the difference between a BX board and a regular board is pronounced. 20+ cm of extra effective edge for the same length board.

If some of you love your wavy edges, great! I just think it's misguided to tell newbs that wavy edges will somehow make them better riders on ice. There's a whole world of good boards out there with regular edges that people may miss out on if they get it in their head that they need magnetraction to ride hardpack.


----------



## francium (Jan 12, 2013)

I bought a burton custom flying v a couple of years ago, the frostbite edges on that made fuck all difference it was shit on hardpack and ice. Been riding my rossingnol magtek xv and hovercraft mostly so far this season one has full magnetraction one mellow you can tell the difference the full will dig in more when you're turning harder although just added a rome mountain division to the collection so I'll be interested to see how that compares when I go in a few weeks.


----------



## Guest (Feb 5, 2015)

Proper technique trumps any tech in my opinion..........


----------



## Demi9OD (Dec 23, 2014)

francium said:


> I bought a burton custom flying v a couple of years ago, the frostbite edges on that made fuck all difference it was shit on hardpack and ice. Been riding my rossingnol magtek xv and hovercraft mostly so far this season one has full magnetraction one mellow you can tell the difference the full will dig in more when you're turning harder although just added a rome mountain division to the collection so I'll be interested to see how that compares when I go in a few weeks.


OT but do you mind comparing how those two fare against each other in other aspects than edge hold?


----------



## francium (Jan 12, 2013)

Love them both the hovercraft is actually quite playful and is as good on groomers as it is in powder, they do float really well in powder and I haven't had any leg burn on it the nose chatters a bit at speed but it handles chopped up stuff well. The xv is a beast seems to smash anything the float isn't quite as good but had no issues because of the large amount of rocker it rides much smaller than it is, it carves really well and surprisingly quite easy to ride switch.


----------



## taco tuesday (Jul 26, 2014)

poutanen said:


> Demi9OD said:
> 
> 
> > Those guys can't sacrifice the milliseconds that wavy edges would add to their lap time in the name of grip.
> ...


I must have missed the part where we told noobs that any tech will make you rip in any particular conditions. I also was under the impression that we were taking about mag helping with ice(the hard frozen water stuff, like a hockey rink on a hill) not "hardpack"(snow). I am not racing so i don't really care that bx racers use long, stiff, cambered boards. Tell me how much fun your 180cm race board is in some VT trees.


----------



## JonSnow (Jul 24, 2013)

poutanen said:


> They need MORE grip than us because they're riding faster, turning harder, and a loss of grip equals a loss of time. They ride long, cambered, long sidecut radius boards. Even the difference between a BX board and a regular board is pronounced. 20+ cm of extra effective edge for the same length board.
> 
> If some of you love your wavy edges, great! I just think it's misguided to tell newbs that wavy edges will somehow make them better riders on ice. There's a whole world of good boards out there with regular edges that people may miss out on if they get it in their head that they need magnetraction to ride hardpack.


All I'm saying is that magnetraction helps me on ice. If it helps me, why couldn't it help someone else? I know it's anecdotal, but isn't that part of what a forum is for? Why the sweeping allegation that all of our experiences with magenetraction are somehow wrong?

I know that for marketing purposes companies will add gimmicky shit to get people to buy stuff, but the fact that almost all of the major brands have some version of magnetraction means that it is probably somewhat beneficial.

Also, ice and hardpack are very different terms.


----------



## jesboogie (Oct 26, 2014)

*MagneTraction Works! Try it, you may like it.*

Even on the sweetest powdery mountain, there is always a patch or two of ice you have to cross to get to the goods. Magnetraction will get you there. For reference my main board is a Rossi 'The Experience' 159, and this thing has heroic levels of edge hold when the going gets rough. JD


----------



## poutanen (Dec 22, 2011)

The trouble is, all these threads delve into the battle of wether it works or not, and none of the comments are objective. There's enough marketing shit to add our own confusion to the mix!

I'd love to see some tests (and have suggested how we could do it in the past) so see if magnetraction does in fact have better grip on ice. Until then we just have a bunch of subjective opinions flying around.

Again, if you bought an MT board and you love it, great! There are lots of people on both sides of the fence here...

And a boards ability to grip hardpack vs ice should be the same. A board that's great on hardpack isn't going to be terrible on ice and visa versa. I said hardpack, because most people that say they ride on ice, really mean hardpack. Even on the "ice coast" ice is fairly rare. I rode for 20 years of my riding life in Ontario, Quebec, Vermont, and New Hampshire.


----------



## SnowDragon (Apr 23, 2012)

golfer1659 said:


> Proper technique trumps any tech in my opinion..........


Okay.

You drive your horse and buggy with the best driving technique.
I'll do the same with my Ferrari.

After all, we both will get from point A to point B, and the tech difference is negated by proper driving technique.

We should both achieve our goal equally right?


----------



## Demi9OD (Dec 23, 2014)

My guess is that while a regular camber board and MTX board might have an equal coefficient of static friction, the force necessary to break the carve into a slide, the MTX is going to have a higher coefficient if dynamic friction, making it easier to get it back. Since you don't need to reengage the entire edge to maximize friction, it won't take as much force to get the multiple contact points to start digging back in as it would a long uninterrupted plane.

An experienced rider would just point the cambered board down the fall like to lock it back in. The inexperienced rider panics and body slams when the board comes out from under him. MTX gives confidence because the inexperienced rider can panic and not totally lose his footing.


----------



## tanscrazydaisy (Mar 11, 2013)

Demi9OD said:


> My guess is that while a regular camber board and MTX board might have an equal coefficient of static friction, the force necessary to break the carve into a slide, the MTX is going to have a higher coefficient if dynamic friction, making it easier to get it back. Since you don't need to reengage the entire edge to maximize friction, it won't take as much force to get the multiple contact points to start digging back in as it would a long uninterrupted plane.
> 
> An experienced rider would just point the cambered board down the fall like to lock it back in. The inexperienced rider panics and body slams when the board comes out from under him. MTX gives confidence because the inexperienced rider can panic and not totally lose his footing.


the coefficient of friction is dependent on materials. Your basic friction force equation is independent of the surface area.

Think of edges as a cutting tool.... exactly as Lib-tech describes. The type of cutting done is orthogonal.

http://publications.axspace.com/Chapter-appendix-A.pdf

It's been too long for me to care about design of cutting tools.....


----------



## Justin (Jun 2, 2010)

Mag works, its not magic and it doesn't turn "ice into powder" but it does grip very well. I have a smokin superpark and it is very fun to carve on while being a twin and able to ride anything in the park.

Will a BX board get better edge hold? Maybe, probably, but I don't want to ride a BX board cause it will not be very fun to butter and ride in the park.


----------



## Demi9OD (Dec 23, 2014)

tanscrazydaisy said:


> the coefficient of friction is dependent on materials. Your basic friction force equation is independent of the surface area.
> 
> Think of edges as a cutting tool.... exactly as Lib-tech describes. The type of cutting done is orthogonal.
> 
> ...


It's only independent of surface area when one object cannot dig into the other.


----------



## Dean Winchester (Jan 20, 2015)

poutanen said:


> The trouble is, all these threads delve into the battle of wether it works or not, and none of the comments are objective. There's enough marketing shit to add our own confusion to the mix!
> 
> I'd love to see some tests (and have suggested how we could do it in the past) so see if magnetraction does in fact have better grip on ice. Until then we just have a bunch of subjective opinions flying around.
> 
> ...



I cant speak for most of the Ice coast but I live in North Carolina and its hot here during the day and lik 10 degrees at night so it melts then its ice....true straight hard ice half the time...and I do alot of night sessions because of my job...during the day its amazing...but at night its just straight ice on half the slopes...I try to avoid most of it ...but alot of the times you cant...and I need amazing edge hold


----------



## 16gkid (Dec 5, 2012)

Jesus some of u love to talk :blahblah:
Magnetraction works, Jibsaw is a great board:happy:


----------



## freshy (Nov 18, 2009)

In my own personal experience magna is great when you hit that unexpected patch of ice. I need less time to make the necessary adjustments and any adjustment is smaller compared to a normal edge.
Yes a sharp cambered edge can grip very well in icy conditions, but when I'm riding hardpack and hit that invisible patch of ice it's experience and/or luck that saves me. Also it's a pain in the ass to remember to sharpen your edges all the time. Magna you can detune your edges and still have that bite on ice.

If you know you are going to be riding ice then any edge will be okay because you adjust your riding style accordingly. Like I said, it's when you hit a patch of ice mid carve where I see the biggest difference between the serrated and straight edges.


----------



## knoxious (Feb 16, 2012)

I have a Jibsaw. It's a great board that is fun to jump with, enjoyable to press/butter and can handle speeds. 

Before trying a Jibsaw I tried the Krypto which has the full on Magne and I found that the Krypto would lock into a carve and almost not let me out. I didn't find this with the Jibsaw...although sometimes it does lock into a turn more than I'd expect. 

The Jibsaw is a lot of fun. I hear anecdotally that each length on offer has a slightly different flex pattern going from super park-y (153) to hardercharging (157/9).

I have a 155 and it's been a whole lotta fun!

There's no difference between the '14 (brownish skulls/horror topsheet) and '15 
(black and green topsheet). The '13 (Chainsaw graphic) has the full on Magne.

I wish it would snow more in BC!


----------



## 16gkid (Dec 5, 2012)

knoxious said:


> I have a Jibsaw. It's a great board that is fun to jump with, enjoyable to press/butter and can handle speeds.
> 
> Before trying a Jibsaw I tried the Krypto which has the full on Magne and I found that the Krypto would lock into a carve and almost not let me out. I didn't find this with the Jibsaw...although sometimes it does lock into a turn more than I'd expect.
> 
> ...


I started out with a 2012 jibsaw (chainsaw) LOVED the board, beginning of this year, bought a '14 Krypto, and you are absolutely right about the board locking into a carve, but for my style (hard charger/fast) the board works great. Keeping both boards, jibsaw for when im home (midwest hills)and the krypto for when I get out west to some powder and real mountains. 
also tested them both back to back on a icey steep chute, and the krypto held on harder than the jibsaw.


----------



## ek9max (Apr 8, 2013)

Old thread, but I thought I might add some input. 

2 seasons ago I rode 5-6 different lib/gnu boards. Thought they were great. 

Last year I rode 5-6 burton boards camber dominant boards. Much more stable. 

One day I was out with a buddy that I sold a lib TRS C2btx to the year before. He just got it freshly tuned. I was riding a burton RCR showdog with frostbite edges. 

We traded boards for a few runs. I was trying my best not to be subjective. But my RCR 152 showdog definitely felt slightly grippier, and with the bonus of the RCR being more stable. 

Wasn't an icy day. But it was the afternoon and I tried to hit some hardpack. 

Just my 2 cents.


----------



## midnightcaper (Mar 23, 2013)

GreyDragon said:


> Okay.
> 
> You drive your horse and buggy with the best driving technique.
> I'll do the same with my Ferrari.
> ...


Eventually the horse and buggy will pass the Ferrari broke down on the side of the rode,plus cost of ownership is cheaper.


----------

