# so...inuries rotator cup/bicep tear/pull



## PaoloSmythe (Aug 19, 2007)

it is at the very least a physiotherapists visit.

the shoulder is a complex and _open _joint and i have mucho problemos with one of mine, due to gym work.

it could be any of the deltoid muscles, the underlying rotator cuff muscles and ligaments or as you say, a more remote cause like upper arm muscles.

to identify the problem, you need to identify the movements which cause pain.

however, if all else fails, take ibuprofen to reduce inflamation, a bit of ice and (i like to) use some seriously hard pressure one or two finger massages on the points of soreness to promote blood flow. and when i say hard i mean bruise making.

_.... take two of these, spank your monkey with your bad arm and come back in a week.... _


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## BRsnow (Jan 26, 2008)

I tore my rotator cuff 21 years ago when I was 14. It was a slight tear and I did PT and just stopped playing baseball. It still hurts if I sleep wrong, throw a ball for too long...odd weather makes it ache. Also if I fall while boarding it hurts. I would get it looked at if possible, but also do not push it as you can do more damage in the long run. You want it to heal for sure....


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## Guest (Jan 29, 2008)

Don't forget heat. It is just as important as ice. Ice for the swelling, heat for the stiffness and pain.


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## Guest (Jan 30, 2008)

If you still have rotation in your shoulder i'm doubting your cuff is torn... My buddy shredded his and couldn't move his arm... maybe he's a pansy:laugh:... but on the bicep thing... if you fell like you were sleeping on your arm then yeah... like paolo said.. it could be your deltoid or subscapularis(outside pec muscle).. You said you don't have insurance so i'd keep the ice on it with some type of muscle relaxer for a couple days and see what happens... if it's still giving you shit go to the ER... they can't refuse anyone service if your in pain...

Here's a shoulder muscle group anatomy for the hell of it:







Maybe that will help you isolate which group is hurting...


Mike


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## Mr. Right (Sep 27, 2007)

Well from the picture I'd say Deltoid. I can still rotate my shoulder which isn't all that bad painwise, but the minute I lift my arm I get shooting pains down into my bicep and I just can't even bear to lift it any further. If I force myself to endure the pain I can VERY slowly lift it above my shoulder but I definitely can't pick anything up etc. I'm going to have to give my uncle a visit, he's got pain killers and muscle relaxers. That sucks. I have a trip to Monarch coming up in 11 days and I can't even put my arm up to balance myself on a board.


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## Guest (Jan 30, 2008)

Mr. Right said:


> Well from the picture I'd say Deltoid. I can still rotate my shoulder which isn't all that bad painwise, but the minute I lift my arm I get shooting pains down into my bicep and I just can't even bear to lift it any further. If I force myself to endure the pain I can VERY slowly lift it above my shoulder but I definitely can't pick anything up etc. I'm going to have to give my uncle a visit, he's got pain killers and muscle relaxers. That sucks. I have a trip to Monarch coming up in 11 days and I can't even put my arm up to balance myself on a board.


I've never done anything to my delt... sounds like a bruised/tore tendon though:dunno:... maybe hit up some webmd... If that is the case though there is probly not alot a regular doc. is going to do for you anyways but script you some meds and a ice pack... If you do go to a doc. cut out the middle man and head to the specialist... I am far from being a doctor or anything of the sort but i've had more than my share of wrecks and ER trips... You do need to get your hands on some type of anti-flammatory like naproxen at the very least...

Mike


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## sedition (Feb 8, 2007)

BRsnow said:


> I tore my rotator cuff 21 years ago when I was 14. It was a slight tear and I did PT and just stopped playing baseball. It still hurts if I sleep wrong, throw a ball for too long...odd weather makes it ache. Also if I fall while boarding it hurts. I would get it looked at if possible, but also do not push it as you can do more damage in the long run. You want it to heal for sure....


Likewise on the rotary cuff. I fucked mine up two years ago. A MINOR tear. Went to PT. Honey gave me some weight training excercises to do. I snowboard, skateboard, and play softball, (tackle) football, and am a huge billiard junkie. If I do *any* of those for several days in row, for extended periods of time, my shoulder hurts. Playing pool is actually the worst of them all. If I sleep wrong it hurts. If I stop doing the weight training excercises, it starts to hurt more. I will have to do those the rest of my life. My shoulder is never going to be same again. I am aware of that, and just have to alter my life in order to deal with that truth the best that I can. And my other arm? That one has a metal-rod in it from a motorcycle wreck. I'm lucky to be alive, let alone having 98% use of that arm. Despite a compound fracture, and metal rod that is imbeded in my bone for the rest of my life, the tiny little tear in my rotary cuff on the other arm causes more pain, and more problems than the "serious" injury in the other arm that has a metal rod in it. Irony runs thick sometimes. 

Anyway, the point in all this personal digretion is that an over-all small injury can really fuck-up your shoulder up, and your life. Without know WHAT to do in order to make it better (i.e. proper PT), you can make the injury worse. You can also lose a lot of use of your arm. I am not trying to scare you, I am just trying to be real with you. I have a long and sorid history of fucking myself up (inc. shoulders) from all kinds of sports. I not only know what can happen, I've *had* it happen. 

Put ice on it. Get a sling from the drug store and wear it, all the time. Even to bed. Do not move your arm at all. Take IBUPROFINE, as it is an anti-infalmitory. 4 pills is usually a subscription sized dose (800mg, I think). If there is not a SUBSTANTIAL difference in your arm in 5-7 days, start researching free clincs. Call a local hospital and tell them your situation. Check out local med schools, they often let students (under supervision) do work for free. Do your homework. Use of your arm might depend on it.


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## Guest (Jan 30, 2008)

sedition said:


> Likewise on the rotary cuff. I fucked mine up two years ago. A MINOR tear. Went to PT. Honey gave me some weight training excercises to do. I snowboard, skateboard, and play softball, (tackle) football, and am a huge billiard junkie. If I do *any* of those for several days in row, for extended periods of time, my shoulder hurts. Playing pool is actually the worst of them all. If I sleep wrong it hurts. If I stop doing the weight training excercises, it starts to hurt more. I will have to do those the rest of my life. My shoulder is never going to be same again. I am aware of that (my other arm has a metal-rod in it from a motorcycle wreck).
> 
> Anyway, the point in all this personal digretion is that an over-all small injury can really fuck your shoulder up. Without know WHAT to do to make it better (i.e. proper PT), you can make make the injury worse. I am not trying to scare you, I am just trying to be real with you. I have a long and sorid history of fucking myself up (inc shoulders) from sports. I not only know what can happen, I've *had* it happen.
> 
> Put ice on it. Get a sling from the drug store and wear it. Even to bed. Do not move your arm at all. Take INUPROFINE, as it is an anti-infalmitory. 4 pills is usually a subscription sized dose (800mg, I think). If there is not a SUBSTANTIAL difference in your arm in 5-7 days, start researching free clincs. Call a local hospital and tell them your situation. Check out local med schools, they often let students (under supervision) do work for free. Do your homework. Use of your arm might depend on it.


Excactly... I have a quirk in my left shoulder from a crash that I had 4 years ago.. never got it checked out.. I found out the hard way that if it's a tendon/muscle injury and it doesn't go away in a week... it's probly not going to... As apposed to my knee... the doc had me up and running 100% in about 8 months...


Mike


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## Guest (Jan 30, 2008)

sounds like an AC Shoulder Separation. Is that bruise a bump that's hard as a rock and you can push it down? If so that'd be ur collar bone ripped out of place.

Same thing happened to me about 1 1/2 months ago. Mine was a grade III. The doctor gave me a sling. I was pretty surprised that's all I was given considering my collar bone was a good inch above its normal position, but after googling it aparently most ac shoulder separations are treated the same way.

I couldn't move my arm above my shoulder same as you when it first happened. I can now fully rotate my arm but unfortunately the bump is here to stay 'cause the collar bone never fully moves back into position.

here's a wiki on it: Separated shoulder - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Mr. Right (Sep 27, 2007)

Right on, thanks for all the advice guys. Tomorrow I planned on calling around to find some inexpensive medical help and my friend said he knew of a clinic that works off of your income so hopefully I can get in somewhere that doesn't require a ton of money, as right now I just don't have it. I just got done taking a real hot bath for about an hour and it seemed to help a lot. Now I'll be icing it until bed. It does seem to have gotten what I would call 2% better lol which is probably a good sign. The bruise has gone away as well.


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## NYCboarder (Jan 26, 2008)

supraspinatis... because you said when you initiate lifting your arm to your side.. deltoids could be a posibility as well.


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## PaoloSmythe (Aug 19, 2007)

your deltoid is a slightly tricky muscle GROUP to injure, coz it is formed from 3 independent nodes.

you have the anterior, lateral and posterior. it could be one or some of these. so have a go at these...

stand up straight. with your arm down at your side, your hand flat on your leg, lift your straight arm up and forwards so you hand is in front of its opposite eye (so your right hand is in front of your left eye) that tests the anterior delt

do the same thing, but lift your down facing hand directly out to the side, for the lateral delt

do the same sort of thing as this last exercise, but whilst bent 90 degress at the waist, so you kinda flap your arm like a bird's wing, for the posterior delt.

with pain going down your upper arm... i reckon the first exercise might give you some problems...

but what they hell do i know? my shoulder is still killing me! ibuprofen and rough massage time! lovely!


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## Mr. Right (Sep 27, 2007)

Good call Paolo. The one with my arm stretched out in front of me was definitely the hardest, although I really couldn't do all 3 :laugh: I made a doctor appointment on Monday and they claimed it would be a $40 visit but we'll see how much it ends up being after all is said and done. I did notice a bit of improvement today and sitting on my ass this weekend instead of riding should help also. Of course the minute I get hurt I have to work 5 days this week which has been interesting to say the least. I gotta get this fixed because I may be getting a job with some wicked benefits ande good pay that would cover this sort of thing, even if it didn't happen at work. The catch is, I'm going have to be able to pass a physical exam and if I can't lift 50-75 lbs consistently, no job.


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## Guest (Jan 31, 2008)

What kind of physical are they actually going to have you lift weights? I've had two jobs too were I had to do the COMPLETE physical and both times I never had to lift anything but my pants ... The 2nd doc did look down at the clipboard and looked back up and said... "eh.. you like like you can lift a box or two"... If you do have to lift something maybe you can cheat a little by getting your arms under it and lift the weight with your back/legs...

Unless I misunderstood....

Mike


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## Mr. Right (Sep 27, 2007)

headinahole said:


> What kind of physical are they actually going to have you lift weights? I've had two jobs too were I had to do the COMPLETE physical and both times I never had to lift anything but my pants ... The 2nd doc did look down at the clipboard and looked back up and said... "eh.. you like like you can lift a box or two"... If you do have to lift something maybe you can cheat a little by getting your arms under it and lift the weight with your back/legs...
> 
> Unless I misunderstood....
> 
> ...


Well it is the kind of thing where if the doctor can tell that I can't lift my arm above my shoulder he'll probably make note of it. It will be a welding job where I will be lifting bobcat buckets etc. and doing some manual physical labor. I can't bitch too hard about it because I can't lie to them, or else my job chances are fucked for life, and considering they will be starting me anywhere between $22 and $30 an hour. I can't risk it, I'd rather tell them I'll re-apply when I am healthy again. The fact I can't even lift a screwdriver let alone my arm above my chest would give it away in a moments notice. I can't cheat it or I'll be screwed once hired.

And the bad part is TODAY, I'd have a hard time getting my arms under it. Luckily right at this moment I work for family and they are willing to put up with my injury rather than fire me/lay me off/ tell me to come back once healed (which I couldn't afford to do). Unfortunately I've been working my ASS off for the past three days like this and my right arm has taken the brunt of the pain taking up for my bad arm, which has made my good arm a little sore. Welding is a bitch, I almost wish I had a desk job at this point.

It did get a little better today though don't get me wrong. If it's anything like when I tore a muscle in my forearm then it will be sore forever, but will atleast be useable within 3-4 weeks, I hope.


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## Guest (Jan 31, 2008)

Mr. Right said:


> Well it is the kind of thing where if the doctor can tell that I can't lift my arm above my shoulder he'll probably make note of it. It will be a welding job where I will be lifting bobcat buckets etc. and doing some manual physical labor. I can't bitch too hard about it because I can't lie to them, or else my job chances are fucked for life, and considering they will be starting me anywhere between $22 and $30 an hour. I can't risk it, I'd rather tell them I'll re-apply when I am healthy again. The fact I can't even lift a screwdriver let alone my arm above my chest would give it away in a moments notice. I can't cheat it or I'll be screwed once hired.


Gotcha... Was just taking the angle that the application just said that on it and the odds of actually lifting that much regularly wasn't going to happen... If you already have the interview lined up show up anyways... Look the man in the eye and tell him the truth... Chances are he'll respect you for it and might give you some leeway... or they could have another opening etc... If he's a dick about it you probably didn't want to work for him in the first place...


Mike


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## Mr. Right (Sep 27, 2007)

Its a big enough place the BITCH hiring me (I heard she is UN-PLEASANT) will not be my boss, but the work of getting past her. From there it will be assholes like me lol.


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## Guest (Jan 31, 2008)

Mr. Right said:


> Its a big enough place the BITCH hiring me (I heard she is UN-PLEASANT) will not be my boss, but the work of getting past her. From there it will be assholes like me lol.


Rough... Talk about bad timing man...


Mike


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## Guest (Jan 31, 2008)

headinahole said:


> If you still have rotation in your shoulder i'm doubting your cuff is torn... My buddy shredded his and couldn't move his arm... maybe he's a pansy:laugh:... but on the bicep thing... if you fell like you were sleeping on your arm then yeah... like paolo said.. it could be your deltoid or subscapularis(outside pec muscle).. You said you don't have insurance so i'd keep the ice on it with some type of muscle relaxer for a couple days and see what happens... if it's still giving you shit go to the ER... they can't refuse anyone service if your in pain...
> 
> Here's a shoulder muscle group anatomy for the hell of it:
> 
> ...


That diagram is too simplified.
There are four muscles that comprise of the rotator cuff. Supraspinatus, Infraspinatus, Teres Minor, and Subscapularis (in medical school we learned it as the acronym SITS).

The deltoid is not a rotator cuff muscle but can assist in shoulder abduction (the motion in which you move your arm directly away from your body but in the same 2D plane), but only AFTER the first 60 degrees are initiated by the rotator cuff itself. This is why many people with rotator cuff tears will "lean" to the affected side to get gravity to induce the first 60 degrees rotation so that they can then use their deltoid to lift the arm up further.

Here, it should look like this: 










From the OP's description, it could be one of a few possibilities, but regardless, needs a proper physical examination to confirm the diagnosis.

You can find the money to board? Then find the money to go see a doctor. You need to be assessed in person. Period. Nothing any of us say can help you at all compared to in-person professional consultation.


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## Mr. Right (Sep 27, 2007)

Snowblower said:


> You can find the money to board? Then find the money to go see a doctor. You need to be assessed in person. Period. Nothing any of us say can help you at all compared to in-person professional consultation.


I don't need money to board, I bought my season pass long before the season even began and the trip I have planned comprises of 3 free tickets that come with that season pass. The only thing it ever costs me is gas and thats if I even drive which has been rare lately. Thank your for your advice before telling me how to use my money, but that's not what I asked for. If you actually read the whole thread instead of being a smartass you'd see I made a doctors appointment. I just wanted to see how it was for a few days and get some advice before making that decision.


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## Guest (Feb 1, 2008)

Mr. Right said:


> I don't need money to board, I bought my season pass long before the season even began and the trip I have planned comprises of 3 free tickets that come with that season pass. The only thing it ever costs me is gas and thats if I even drive which has been rare lately. Thank your for your advice before telling me how to use my money, but that's not what I asked for. If you actually read the whole thread instead of being a smartass you'd see I made a doctors appointment. I just wanted to see how it was for a few days and get some advice before making that decision.


You asked for advice, so I gave it to you. I wasn't even attempting to be a smart-ass (and by pay to board, yes, I referred to any and all costs, incl gas, lift tickets/season pass, whatever). Sorry you don't like the advice given to you, but it is what it is, and I'm not changing my opinion. No one, not even a physician, would be comfortable in giving you advice for a shoulder problem relating to an acute fall without having seen it in person.

EDIT: oh, and I never implied that you were not going to see a doctor, just that anything we tell you here will be half-assed compared to a personal investigation. You think I wrote that previous post detailing the muscles, the motions, and so on just to be a smart-ass?


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## Mr. Right (Sep 27, 2007)

I thanked you for the useful advice, it was the comment "You can find the money to board? Then find the money to see a doctor" that came across as a smartass comment, the kind of thing my mom would say. At worst it costs me a whole $4 in gas to get to my mountain and back in a Subaru, kind of a perk when you live 10 minutes away. I don't know how much money you spend in gas etc. to ride but for me it could definitely never add up to the cost of going to a doctors office, getting diagnosed, picking up any needed meds, paying for physical therapy etc. And if it makes any sense, I haven't even spent that money to go riding because I am going to the doc on Monday. Maybe I'm in a shit mood over this whole thing but that just seemed like a dick comment to me. Most people would react the same way being told that they are irresponsible and need to plan their money out better (I know you didn't say that in those words but your comment sure beamed it out). Once again, thank you for the first set of advice, but I don't need your financial wisdom.


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## sedition (Feb 8, 2007)

Ya'll need to get over yourselves.


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## Guest (Feb 1, 2008)

Mr. Right said:


> I thanked you for the useful advice, it was the comment "You can find the money to board? Then find the money to see a doctor" that came across as a smartass comment, the kind of thing my mom would say. At worst it costs me a whole $4 in gas to get to my mountain and back in a Subaru, kind of a perk when you live 10 minutes away. I don't know how much money you spend in gas etc. to ride but for me it could definitely never add up to the cost of going to a doctors office, getting diagnosed, picking up any needed meds, paying for physical therapy etc. And if it makes any sense, I haven't even spent that money to go riding because I am going to the doc on Monday. Maybe I'm in a shit mood over this whole thing but that just seemed like a dick comment to me. Most people would react the same way being told that they are irresponsible and need to plan their money out better (I know you didn't say that in those words but your comment sure beamed it out). Once again, thank you for the first set of advice, but I don't need your financial wisdom.


(sigh) All I meant by that comment, the one that seemed to torque you off so much, was that the cost of the occasional doctor's visit should be factored into one's budget for snowboarding, in addition to the costs of driving, lift tickets, etc. I just find it irksome when people do any kind of sporting activity, suffer an injury, but then try and justify not getting assessed because they either can't afford it/don't want to spend the money.

I am NOT implying that you did this earlier in this thread, but I have already seen it in other threads by other people, so I made that comment. I apologize if you thought I was accusing you of being fiscally irresponsible, that wasn't my intent. It was meant to be something like saying "bumps and scrapes are just a part of playing the game." And this statement is not to assume you didn't know *that*, either. That's it. No rancor, no sarcasm, certainly not said in any attempt at being a "dick." You read way too much into it. I'm glad you are going to the doctor and I look forward to you posting an update afterwards on what he/she thinks it is, and hopefully it is nothing that will sideline you for too long.

We're all here for the same reason, to share info and help one another out, so let's just try to afford one another the occasional misstep over the internet without always assuming the worst.


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## PaoloSmythe (Aug 19, 2007)

Snowblower said:


> We're all here for the same reason, to share info and help one another out, so let's just try to afford one another the occasional misstep over the internet without always assuming the worst.



well i am here to be a smart arse, so assume what you will!


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## Guest (Feb 1, 2008)

PaoloSmythe said:


> well i am here to be a smart arse, so assume what you will!


:laugh: :laugh:


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