# The Blunted Tip Thread



## poutanen (Dec 22, 2011)

It occured to me in a recent post that it's pretty hard to find actual blunted tip boards out there. I don't mean those slightly squared off versions, I mean something with more effective edge than a regular old Burton Custom.

For example, the Burton Custom (camber) in 160 cm has 124 cm effective edge, for an effective edge to total edge ratio of 0.78. Most regular boards have roughly the same effective edge ratio (Neversummer Raptor is basically identical for what it's worth). The K2 Peacekeeper and Ultra Dream actually have SHORTER effective edges than the Burton Custom and NS Raptor, despite the blunted tip look.

Here's some that I know of... and yes some are obvious.

Virus Avalanche FLP AFT - 141 cm effective edge on a 160 cm board (0.88 ratio) Also Virus UFC Boardercross and Boardercross competition

Oxess Freeride - 126/157 = 0.80 ratio
Oxess Boardercross - 139/159 = 0.87

Kessler The Ride - 137.25/163 = 0.84 Ratio (thanks to *bseracka* for measuring his board!)

Donek Incline - Site lists running length which is not equal to effective edge... Anyone own one that can measure?

Volkl Coal XT - 128/158 = 0.81
Volkl Coal Race - 144/159 = 0.91 (note: this board has a tail like a jones hovercraft)

Fullbag Diamond Blade -137.5/163 = 0.84

Prior use to make a BX board. I was at the factory last week and was oogling a BX board and the guy told me it was the last of it's kind. 

What else is out there? I searched a lot of the big names but couldn't find anything with true blunted tips (K2, Nitro, Neversummer, Ride, Head, Lib Tech, Venture, Rossignol, Yes, Jones, Palmer, etc.)


----------



## john doe (Nov 6, 2009)

Here's a question. How is effective edge measured? How much past the widest part of the ends do you consider still effective?


----------



## ETM (Aug 11, 2009)

none......


----------



## poutanen (Dec 22, 2011)

ETM said:


> none......


Exactly, in fact I'd say effective edge ends just before the widest part of the tip and tail.


----------



## snowklinger (Aug 30, 2011)

It is my understanding that what has been done with the NS Proto and Evo in the last few years, and even the Cobra, is this.

For example we put my '54 Proto next to an old non-blunted r'c '58 Evo ('10) and noticed that they had virtually the same effective edge and contact points. 

Maybe I misunderstand the question, fuck all your fancy numbers!


----------



## ETM (Aug 11, 2009)

Effective edge is contact point to contact point, put the board on its side on a flat surface and where it touches is the end if the effective edge. The running length however can be longer depending on the camber profile of the board. Lots of powder skis have this with the effective edge stopping about 400mm from the front of the ski but the ski actually touches the snow another 100mm or so. Most snowboards have a running length very similar to the effective edge.


----------



## Extremo (Nov 6, 2008)

I'd seriously like to know what is companies really measure for effective edge. I was always under the assumption that it was the edge from contact points when the board was laid flat. But with boards like Ride and Capita with highrise or flatkick tips that raise the contact points how do you determine where the effective edge ends?


----------



## john doe (Nov 6, 2009)

Well if the effective edge measurement doesn't go beyond the widest point then the amount of edge engaged in the snow will be longer then the EE measurement. This makes the effective edge damn near a useless measurement since you still have to factor in how much edge past the widest point is engaged in teh snow. Boards with blunted tips (Like my Buck Ferton) have a larger radius of curve away from the snow after the widest point making the amount of edge engaged longer then a normal shaped tip.


----------



## ETM (Aug 11, 2009)

Extremo said:


> I'd seriously like to know what is companies really measure for effective edge. I was always under the assumption that it was the edge from contact points when the board was laid flat. But with boards like Ride and Capita with highrise or flatkick tips that raise the contact points how do you determine where the effective edge ends?


You are mixing up effective edge and running length. Effective edge is a measurement that can be taken from a 2D drawing of the snowboard shape. ie. looking at it from above. It never changes no matter what the camber profile is. 
The running length can change depending on the camber profile. A full rocker board will have a shorter running length than effective edge, of course this is all subjective as the running length of a full rocker board will also change if the rider has a wider stance.

I thought you fukkers were meant to be board reviewers lol.


----------



## ETM (Aug 11, 2009)

john doe said:


> Well if the effective edge measurement doesn't go beyond the widest point then the amount of edge engaged in the snow will be longer then the EE measurement. This makes the effective edge damn near a useless measurement since you still have to factor in how much edge past the widest point is engaged in teh snow. Boards with blunted tips (Like my Buck Ferton) have a larger radius of curve away from the snow after the widest point making the amount of edge engaged longer then a normal shaped tip.


You may have a portion of the edge after the contact point touching the snow but its is not effective as it is not playing a part in the turn. Also technically its not the edge its the nose (or tail)


----------



## ETM (Aug 11, 2009)

john doe said:


> This makes the effective edge damn near a useless measurement .


Its actually the most important measurement you can look at when buying a board, I see guys talking about how they can tell 3cm difference in a board and they dont even look at the effective edge measurements, it could be the same for all they know yet they are "feeling" a difference.

If you look at a snowboard as 3 different sections, the nose, sidecut and tail you will start to see a whole bunch of subtle differences in board shapes. The overall length is one of the most meaninless figures you can look at without knowing the effective edge measurement.


----------



## ETM (Aug 11, 2009)

Haha sorry I just had to!


----------



## poutanen (Dec 22, 2011)

Effective edg:










Running length:

I always took it to mean the length of the board minus the tip and tail. The length of the base in contact with the snow with a normal rider standing on the board.










Effective edge and sidecut radius are two of the biggest factors in how a board will feel while carving. If anybody has a chance to hop of a boardercross board one day and try it I encourage them to do so. They tend to have long effective edges, and longer sidecut radii. The result is a board that wants to be leaned more to turn, and it has the edge to handle it.

Sorry for the theory talk snowolf! Me likey the BX board, it feel good! :yahoo: lol I'll have to meet with an impartial forum member so they can see what I'm talking about (Timmytard doesn't count, he tried my board but it was on Mt Cypress slush lol)


----------



## poutanen (Dec 22, 2011)

Snowolf said:


> I totally agree too about effective edge being way more significant than board length. For me, I use that and sidecut radius along with flex ( especially torsional flex as a small footed rider ) when selecting a board.


Yeah exactly, in fact my new board is softer and less cambered than my old board, but the effective edge is way longer, and sidecut radius is longer, so it handles totally different!

I guess what frustrates me is it seems like there's no middle ground. You've got 95% of boards out there that have a similar profile to the Burton T7 I measured (with about 78% of the total length being effective edge), and then all the boardercross options at close to 90% effective edge. As far as I know right now, my board is the only boardercross shaped board with a softer flex and a lifted nose for powder. I'm hoping companies start really blunting the tips on traditional freeride boards, park boards, etc.

Just think, with a 90% effective edge ratio, if you're used to riding a 160 or so, you could ride a 150 with blunted tips, have almost the same carving performance, but have significantly less board to rotate in the park! It wouldn't be ideal for powder but it would make a great east coast hardpack and park board.


----------



## poutanen (Dec 22, 2011)

Snowolf said:


> I also think you have the wrong impression. I am not anti camber nor anti long board. For some applications I like them too. Like you, there are times that I like to take my cambered plank out and engage the warp drive! It's just that for most of my riding I like shorter more agile RC boards as my "does everything" deck.


Yeah yeah! Actually my comment was more about the shape itself,wasn't directed at you or anybody in particular. I keep going on and on about how thrilled I am with the new board (I feel like I've unlocked some sort of secret), but I don't want to appear like the guy that loves what he bought just to justify the purchase, or to put down other peoples boards.

Timmytard tried mine in Vancouver, and said it felt like every other board he'd been on, but it was a slushy day with about 5" of fresh snow, so the great thing about this board is that it does feel like a "normal" board in fresh snow!

I'd love to have an experienced forum member try this board on a regular groomer day or with some mild hardpack. I feel like true blunted tips should be built by more companies into more all-mountain boards, as you can maximize the hardpack/carve potential of the board, while maintaining the playfullness of every other freeride board out there.

I feel like I discovered the holy grail but the rest of the boarding world is skeptical man!!!


----------



## ETM (Aug 11, 2009)

poutanen said:


> Yeah yeah! Actually my comment was more about the shape itself,wasn't directed at you or anybody in particular. I keep going on and on about how thrilled I am with the new board (I feel like I've unlocked some sort of secret), but I don't want to appear like the guy that loves what he bought just to justify the purchase, or to put down other peoples boards.
> 
> Timmytard tried mine in Vancouver, and said it felt like every other board he'd been on, but it was a slushy day with about 5" of fresh snow, so the great thing about this board is that it does feel like a "normal" board in fresh snow!
> 
> ...


I know what you mean, put someone on that thinks their board has mad edge hold, and then blow their fucking mind. Some of the guys in the hovercraft thread would be perfect.


----------



## ETM (Aug 11, 2009)

Technically you are right there wolfie but I think you will find most are straight line measurements. I know mine was when I drew up my shape.


----------



## ETM (Aug 11, 2009)

No idea but if you did the math on a 130mm straight line vs one with a 8m radius I think you would find no more than 3mm variation. And no Im not doing the math lol


----------



## Extremo (Nov 6, 2008)

ETM said:


> You are mixing up effective edge and running length. Effective edge is a measurement that can be taken from a 2D drawing of the snowboard shape. ie. looking at it from above. It never changes no matter what the camber profile is.
> The running length can change depending on the camber profile. A full rocker board will have a shorter running length than effective edge, of course this is all subjective as the running length of a full rocker board will also change if the rider has a wider stance.
> 
> I thought you fukkers were meant to be board reviewers lol.


I've read before that companies measure effective edge differently. I've measured contact points on several boards, while placed on their side and, when flat and at 45 and 30 degree angles and don't always come out with the same measurements as the company reports. Now I know getting a precise measurement would be difficult by just eyeing it, but I've been in the ball park on some boards and been close to an inch off on others all using the same method. 

I understand what you're saying effective edge is, I just want to know how I can replicate that same measurement, and how the effective edge might change based different sidecut radii or camber profile.


----------



## poutanen (Dec 22, 2011)

Snowolf said:


> Thanks! Is this because the actual difference is pretty insignificant? Is this then pretty much an industry standard?


Yeah I'm pretty sure you're right. To measure properly you'd take a flexible tape and measure the actual length of the edge until it starts curling into the tip and tail. But the different would be almost nil between something in a 7m sidecut and something in an 11m sidecut, so for our purposes just putting the board on it's side and measuring from contact point to contact point will do.



Snowolf said:


> Hahaha I don't blame you! So this is why a board with blunted tips can provide a longer effective edge for a shorter running or overall length; because the contact points are farther apart?
> 
> Now I am curious about the new extended transition. From Poutenan's definition, it seems that the running length could be shorter than the effective edge. Then that leads me to ponder the change in the performance characteristics.


Exactly! And again camber profile doesn't have anything to do with effective edge, so you could have a blunted tip board with lifted tips or even full on rocker. It could be "surfy" when cruising around, but once leaned over would likely rail a carve nearly as well as a camber deck with the same profile.



Extremo said:


> I've read before that companies measure effective edge differently. I've measured contact points on several boards, while placed on their side and, when flat and at 45 and 30 degree angles and don't always come out with the same measurements as the company reports. Now I know getting a precise measurement would be difficult by just eyeing it, but I've been in the ball park on some boards and been close to an inch off on others all using the same method.


Even board length I find is never actually what you buy. I think my Burton 159 is actually about 157.5 or so... So as long as we're all measuring the same way then it'll be relevant. So place the board on a 90 deg angle on it's side, and measure from the inside of each contact point where the board JUST touches the surface.


----------



## ETM (Aug 11, 2009)

Extremo said:


> I just want to know how I can replicate that same measurement, and how the effective edge might change based different sidecut radii or camber profile.


Its hard to measure at home precisely because the area where the sidecut ends and the nose starts is a curve so you have a lot of material touching the bench (board is on its side on a flat surface). The manufacturer will have cad drawings so they know exactly how long it is.


----------



## ETM (Aug 11, 2009)

Snowolf said:


> Hahaha I don't blame you! So this is why a board with blunted tips can provide a longer effective edge for a shorter running or overall length; because the contact points are farther apart?


Shorter total length. Think tail,sidecut,nose. Never think of the board as a 160, think of it as 20,120,20. Now make it 10,140,10 and you just gained 20cm in effective edge and you are still at 160.

My 180 powder board is 10,136,34 for instance.


----------



## ETM (Aug 11, 2009)

poutanen said:


> Even board length I find is never actually what you buy. I think my Burton 159 is actually about 157.5 or so..


 This is because the board loses some length when the camber profile is put into it. Your 159 will be exactly 159 if it was a flat sheet of base material like it was when it started out.


----------



## Nivek (Jan 24, 2008)

poutanen said:


> Just think, with a 90% effective edge ratio, if you're used to riding a 160 or so, you could ride a 150 with blunted tips, have almost the same carving performance, but have significantly less board to rotate in the park! It wouldn't be ideal for powder but it would make a great east coast hardpack and park board.


Its not as easy as just chopping the tip up. You have to maintain a certain tip high to make it ride the right was in turns, in pow, off jumps lips... So you either have to lengthen your tips to get the height or increase the degree of the kick. When you increase the kick degree though it drastically efects its ability to plain over snow instead of pushing it out and under. And to simply chop the tip isnt enough. You have to change the contact pt transition too. With too aggressive of a change it will hook up weird and release more abruptly. 

While effective edge is definitely an important number, you also have to consider core profile, camber profile, laminate layup, edge tech... These types of features are starting to become more influential on a boards turn behavior than sidecut and EE ever were on traditional boards.

On top of all that, when I started riding park I needed to be on like 53-55. That was a starting size and I weighed maybe 135. Now at 155lbs the biggest board I see any reason to own is a 156 and that's my all mountain freeride option. For bigger park features I dont need anything bigger than a 154. All the shapes and layups have drastically changed the way your EE is used and for the most part you dont need as much.


----------



## Argo (Feb 25, 2010)

Buck Ferton has about .82 on your scale. IF you go by the specs online it is .80 but by my measurements of the 151 we have its .82


----------



## ShredLife (Feb 6, 2010)

anyone remember this classic from back in the day? 

i wanted this board so bad


----------



## hktrdr (Apr 3, 2012)

ETM said:


> This is because the board loses some length when the camber profile is put into it. Your 159 will be exactly 159 if it was a flat sheet of base material like it was when it started out.


Correct - and not only the camber curvature, but also the nose/tail kicker!

Poutanen: You have to measure from tip to tip following the shape/all the contours.


----------



## steppinrazr (Dec 15, 2012)

ShredLife said:


> anyone remember this classic from back in the day?
> 
> i wanted this board so bad


i have the 147 going to mesure the edge length.

ok 
the avalanche 147 has 128cm of effective edge.
the park pickle 150 has 115cm of effective edge.
the stepchild og powder 157 has 123cm of effective edge.

Man I never realized that my old avalanche had that much effective edge compared to its size.
No wonder that I always found it more than ok as an "old mountain" as far as edge hold was concerned and opposed to my friends boards in the 90's


----------



## ShredLife (Feb 6, 2010)

^^^ oh man that thing is so fuckin rad!


----------



## Ocho (Mar 13, 2011)

ShredLife said:


> anyone remember this classic from back in the day?
> 
> i wanted this board so bad


Ahh! _Any_ time I hear "blunted tips" I think of this board! The Avalanche Road Trip, right? 

A friend of mine had this board. I've never forgotten it.


----------



## ShredLife (Feb 6, 2010)

EatRideSleep said:


> Ahh! _Any_ time I hear "blunted tips" I think of this board! The Avalanche Road Trip, right?


yup. 

so badass.


----------



## steppinrazr (Dec 15, 2012)

ShredLife said:


> ^^^ oh man that thing is so fuckin rad!


Thanks and it is awesome to ride.

I still use it as a rock board but I guess it will be wall art now.

I had never thought of it having a massive effective edge for its size.

I wonder what is the effective edge ratio on a morrow lunchtray


----------



## poutanen (Dec 22, 2011)

Argo said:


> Buck Ferton has about .82 on your scale. IF you go by the specs online it is .80 but by my measurements of the 151 we have its .82


Interesting! So more than a Burton Custom or NS Raptor!



steppinrazr said:


> the avalanche 147 has 128cm of effective edge.
> the park pickle 150 has 115cm of effective edge.
> the stepchild og powder 157 has 123cm of effective edge.


THAT AVALANCHE IS AWESOME! That's exactly what I'm talking about! Never heard of it before...


----------



## steppinrazr (Dec 15, 2012)

poutanen said:


> THAT AVALANCHE IS AWESOME! That's exactly what I'm talking about! Never heard of it before...


What a shame !

It's a "classic" not as legendary as some other early 90's board but still pretty known. about 20 year old though.

The morrow lunchtray shared the same concept.









And in those early to mid 90's years there were very few twin tip boards , so jibbers would just hacksaw the tip and tail to have less swing weight


----------



## ETM (Aug 11, 2009)

Start building them poutanen


----------



## poutanen (Dec 22, 2011)

ETM said:


> Start building them poutanen


You know I've been thinking that for the last few months... How much do you figure you've spent on all your stuff to construct?!?


----------



## ETM (Aug 11, 2009)

A few grand but i did in australia where everything is twice the price of the good old usa. My theory is if you want something bad enough, and you cant buy it, build it. Plus its mad fun and very rewarding.


----------



## bordsmnj (Jan 18, 2013)

doesn't F1 make one board that is as discribed? been to a lot of web sites lately,lol.

just for fun:
Salomon FRS 165
ef.edge 135.5
.82 or 82%. the corners of the blunt ends are basically cut off.
00/99 season


----------



## poutanen (Dec 22, 2011)

ETM said:


> A few grand but i did in australia where everything is twice the price of the good old usa. My theory is if you want something bad enough, and you cant buy it, build it. Plus its mad fun and very rewarding.


Well that's been my moto with pretty much everything else in life, so maybe one of these days I'll have to take your lead and try it out!

I suppose the materials for each board are rather cheap, $100-$200 at the most?


----------



## bseracka (Nov 14, 2011)

So I attempted to get an accurate measurement on my 163 ride. Assuming I got a good measurement the ee on the 163 is 137.25cm


----------



## poutanen (Dec 22, 2011)

bseracka said:


> So I attempted to get an accurate measurement on my 163 ride. Assuming I got a good measurement the we on the 163 is 137.25cm


Thanks for the info! I'll update the original thread. Actually the Ride was something I was really curious about. It seems like one of a very select few boards that fills the niche between BX shaped board and traditional shaped board.

BTW your numbers work out to 84% effective edge to total edge. Right about half way between the Burton Custom or T7, and the Virus Avalanche.


----------



## ETM (Aug 11, 2009)

poutanen said:


> Well that's been my moto with pretty much everything else in life, so maybe one of these days I'll have to take your lead and try it out!
> 
> I suppose the materials for each board are rather cheap, $100-$200 at the most?


Cheap for you. I have to get them shipped to australia lol


----------



## seriouscat (Jan 23, 2012)

bseracka said:


> So I attempted to get an accurate measurement on my 163 ride. Assuming I got a good measurement the we on the 163 is 137.25cm


Am I doing something wrong? I got 134cm on the 158cm ride

Edit: wait that is actually the same ratio


----------



## poutanen (Dec 22, 2011)

seriouscat said:


> Am I doing something wrong? I got 134cm on the 158cm ride
> 
> Edit: wait that is actually the same ratio


:yahoo:

Probably why so many guys love the Ride. It's got significantly more edge than a standard board...


----------



## bseracka (Nov 14, 2011)

That and it rail and handles like being on rails. Sadly... float, not so much. I was thinking it would be a quiver killer until a disasterous trip through 18" of soggy PNW poo :dizzy:


----------



## poutanen (Dec 22, 2011)

bseracka said:


> That and it rail and handles like being on rails. Sadly... float, not so much. I was thinking it would be a quiver killer until a disasterous trip through 18" of soggy PNW poo :dizzy:


I think this is the only thing that would be fun riding through soggy PNW poo!!!


----------



## poutanen (Dec 22, 2011)

Time to resurrect my old thread...

I just bought a Volkl Coal Race 159, and will try it against the Virus 160 and Kessler 163 (tried Seriouscats board a couple years back)

It certainly seems a bit stiffer than the Virus, but it's hard to compare a board with 100+ days on it to something brand new. Time to go beat on the Volkl so I can make a good comparison later this year! :hairy:

Pics for fun:


----------



## Mig Fullbag (Apr 15, 2014)

Thanks for resurrecting this thread! Plenty of good info by ETM and yourself. More people should read stuff like this and educate themselves on what makes a board work.

And you can also add the Fullbag Diamond Blade to your original list. One more option, and less expensive than most other boards of this type.

Lenght: 163cm

Effective edge: 137.5cm

Contact lenght: 114cm


----------



## poutanen (Dec 22, 2011)

Added! I think the more people ride these, the more we'll start to see shapes go more in this direction...

Now I just need to get myself a Diamond Blade and I can be the defacto effective edge critic lol :hairy:


----------



## Mig Fullbag (Apr 15, 2014)

poutanen said:


> Added! I think the more people ride these, the more we'll start to see shapes go more in this direction...


There's room for plenty of different shapes! They all have their purpose and are fun to ride.



poutanen said:


> Now I just need to get myself a Diamond Blade and I can be the defacto effective edge critic lol :hairy:


Contact me when you are ready and we will work something out.


----------

