# Not all gore-tex is made equal?



## Unowned (Feb 5, 2011)

I was under the impression that apparel companies buy the gore-tex pro shell fabric from gore-tex themselves. How is it possible I've had varying success with different companies even tho the material should be similar?

Anyhoo, a few reviews

Oakley Sethmo pants - goretex proshell. These tore on the second day of wearing them, and I don't even know how as I never went through any trees or hit anything other than snow. My friend has the oakley unification pro proshell pants and the material on it is outrageously thin. I would stay away from anything Oakley makes that incorporates gore-tex proshell. I still have these own these pants as anything with holes or tears becomes more difficult to sell. Bought these for $100 off whiskeymilitia a few years back.

Oakley great ascent pants - goretex??? . These pants are advertised as goretex but the membrane feels like oakley's other stuff. It isn't terribly waterproof and its insulated. Regardless, its a nice, durable pant to say the least. Don't know what exactly about it is gore-tex. I bought these off hautelook for $80 bucks.

Burton AK-2L Stagger jacket - Piece of shit jacket. There's a lining on the front pocket that is causing abrasion against the gore-tex fabric thus cutting a hole into it. The lettering and logos arefalling off. For top of the line apparel, I expected more. I've had only ten days on these! I just sent them to Burton today for warranty. Bought off craigslist for $100

Burton AK-3L skid hi-top - amazing pants, I rode two seasons in these and nothing but slight abrasion wear.
Burton AK 3L Skid Hi-Top Pant - Men's - 09/10 | Backcountry.com
Bought these pants off sierrasnowboard back in the day for $140. Sold these pants cuz they were ugly but somewhat regret it.

Bottom line, I would only buy burton ak 3 layered stuff, otherwise just stick with normal burton gear.

Arc'teryx Scorpion jacket - goretex softshell. Of all the goretex apparel i've owned, this is by far the most durable. I've owned this for 5 seasons and continue wearing it to this day for both riding and climbing excursions - though it gets a little hot for the summers. I believe this jacket was replaced by either the Stingray or Sabre model. This jacket...was expensive - even when Arc'teryx is on sale its still very expensive.

Arc'teryx Beta AR - goretex proshell. I have not tested it as I bought this shell specifically for outdoor climbing and camping excursions. The material seems at least as durable as the burton 3L pants I had however, and definitely miles apart from the Oakley goretex stuff I've had.


----------



## ETM (Aug 11, 2009)

Nice rant but I love my oakley goretex. Its light, flexible, warm and waterproof as f#ck.
Yes I do have 2 small cuts in it in 60+ days riding but both are from hard contact with a sharp snowboard edge, shit happens when you ride hard. I got over it pretty fast.


----------



## dreampow (Sep 26, 2011)

I am no expert here at all, but my wife knows quite a bit about fabrics.

To answer the question the gore tex seems to be the water proof membrane in between the fabrics. The fabric on either side of the membrane varies from brand to brand and within the brand according to price, even the top of the line stuff gore tex pro is made with different fabrics from Patagonia to Oakley to Burton etc.

Find the best brand for you and enjoy.

I doubt many fabrics would survive ETMs edge, I am goofy hes regular, this Feb we somehow got back to back in a tree run and collided. I bounced of him and ate shit and he didn't even notice the collision:blink:.


----------



## ETM (Aug 11, 2009)

dreampow said:


> I doubt many fabrics would survive ETMs edge, I am goofy hes regular, this Feb we somehow got back to back in a tree run and collided. I bounced of him and ate shit and he didn't even notice the collision:blink:.


Haha thats a camp fire story dreampow.


----------



## Lamps (Sep 3, 2011)

dreampow said:


> I am no expert here at all, but my wife knows quite a bit about fabrics.
> 
> To answer the question the gore tex seems to be the water proof membrane in between the fabrics. The fabric on either side of the membrane varies from brand to brand and within the brand according to price, even the top of the line stuff gore tex pro is made with different fabrics from Patagonia to Oakley to Burton etc.


I don't think the above is true:

Our Fabrics - GORE-TEX® Products

It also seems that in given years all the pro shell stuff comes in only a few colours. I think that's because goretex only does certain colours each year. 

So I think goretex is goretex, regardless off brand, bearing in mind that they make different fabrics, proshell, soft shell etc.


----------



## john doe (Nov 6, 2009)

My Burton Stagger 2L pants and jacket have been fucking fantastic and more durable then I would have ever guessed.


----------



## trapper (Jan 15, 2013)

Unowned said:


> Arc'teryx Beta AR - goretex proshell. I have not tested it as I bought this shell specifically for outdoor climbing and camping excursions. The material seems at least as durable as the burton 3L pants I had however, and definitely miles apart from the Oakley goretex stuff I've had.


I have this jacket, and I'm convinced that the outer shell fabric saved me from a potentially nasty injury a couple weeks ago. Basically I was dived bombed from behind by a noob that didn't know how to stop. As he took my legs out from under me and fell himself, my forearm landed perpendicular to his snowboard edge, which was pointing upward as he landed on his back. Hurt like hell. I figured for sure my jacket was ripped and figured at least somewhat of a cut on my arm. Nope, the jacket didn't even register a slight mark from that impact even though I developed a baseball-sized bruise on my forearm where it landed. Shit was like armor.


----------



## GOskiLF_bum (Feb 5, 2013)

Lamps said:


> I don't think the above is true:
> 
> Our Fabrics - GORE-TEX® Products
> 
> ...


lamps i believe dreampow's wife is correct. goretex is a membrane in between fabrics and then there's a waterproof coating of some sorts on the outside of the fabric. But the membrane is the key ingredient with goretex products. I could be wrong, of course.


----------



## trapper (Jan 15, 2013)

How that membrane is encased and what it is encased with determines the difference in durabilty and breatheability I believe. I could be wrong, but I think the Gore-tex membrane itself is the same from product to product (as you guys are saying here) but from a consumer's perspective I still think it holds that not all Gore-tex is the same.

Here's an example of some of the differences from the Arc'Teryx website:
GORE-TEX® Guide / Arc'teryx


----------



## Lamps (Sep 3, 2011)

trapper said:


> How that membrane is encased and what it is encased with determines the difference in durabilty and breatheability I believe. I could be wrong, but I think the Gore-tex membrane itself is the same from product to product (as you guys are saying here) but from a consumer's perspective I still think it holds that not all Gore-tex is the same.
> 
> Here's an example of some of the differences from the Arc'Teryx website:
> GORE-TEXÂ® Guide / Arc'teryx


If you look at the fabrics they mention, eg goretex active, that is a goretex fabrics, listed on the goretex website. 

Goretex says on their website: 

"What is GORE-TEX®fabric?
First introduced in 1978, GORE-TEX® fabric is created when we laminate our patentedGORE-TEX® membrane to high-performance textiles, which are then used by authorized garment manufacturers to make outerwear, accessories, and footwear."

I think that goretex doesn't sell the membrane seperately, probably to ensure that there are no quality issues. Eg someone laminates the membrane into a poor quality fabric or glues it in a way that hurts the performance and then the end user blames goretex for performance issues. 

It might be that arcteryx for example gets special fabric but I don't think so since the fabrics on their site are named as goretex products by goretex, not just the membrane.

I'm sure oakley or burton or arcteryx would like consumers to think their fabric is superior to others but I'm pretty certain it's not, the difference is in features and sewing etc. Noting of course that goretex makes different grades of fabric.


----------



## jliu (Jan 20, 2009)

Gore-tex should be manufacturing and supplying all the membranes which is the layer that keeps the water out and helps you breath. The outwear companies are the ones that supply the outer shell that the goretex membrane is bonded too. Hence you see a a big swing between 'low end' gore-tex shells and higher end stuff (i.e., Arcteryx).

I will have to agree with the OP on Oakley stuff. I purchased Oakleys Pro Rider Series choice pants (part of Jake Blauvelt's kit) which was 3L gore and retails for $400 bucks. I tore up the calf area on the 2nd day at kicking horse. I didn't really care about that area too much. But really bothered me was that the zipper for the rear pocket cut its way through the inside fabric causing the seat to get all wet. I sent it in for warranty. It was a combo of poor quality and poor design. I believe they have since changed the zippers to those waterproof types with smaller teeth so it doesn't chew into the inside fabric.


----------



## vknyvz (Jan 23, 2013)

I am with you on the Arcteryx, this is my first jacket, and I am absolutely in love with this brand, durable and high quality, you can tell by just looking at it, only downside lol i spent 500 bucks on it. but it's worth it

i have the slim fit, just what i was looking for


----------



## trapper (Jan 15, 2013)

vknyvz said:


> I am with you on the Arcteryx, this is my first jacket, and I am absolutely in love with this brand, durable and high quality, you can tell by just looking at it, only downside lol i spent 500 bucks on it. but it's worth it
> 
> i have the slim fit, just what i was looking for


Gotta shop around man. I was diligent about it and found a new Beta AR jacket for about half it's MSRP of $550. I love the cut on these jackets too. Plenty of room in the shoulders but not super baggy in the waist and torso. My only regret is not grabbing the AR instead, which has a bit longer torso length. But in general I've never been so impressed with the construction of a piece of outerwear with the exception of my Cabela's Gore-tex fishing jacket.


----------



## scotty100 (Apr 3, 2012)

^That gear is nice but personally I can't justify the price for my riding, which is all on piste resort in tahoe. I can count on the one hand the days I've been out this season that the temps have dipped below 50degs. I've been wearing a soft shell dryride burton hoodie all season. No need for anything else...!


----------



## ridinbend (Aug 2, 2012)

Gore-Tex® Fabric - A microporous polymeric film of polytetraflouroe- thylene (PTFE) durably bonded to a wide range of shell fabrics. The pores are 20,000 times smaller than a drop of water, but 700 times larger than a molecule of water vapor. Gore-Tex fabric has the best combination of waterproofness, breathability, windproofness and durability available.

Durability: Can it handle hard use? Face fabrics (nylon or polyester, usually) come in different weights, or denier, a spec not always provided by manufacturers. Though 70-denier (70D) is a common weight, outerwear fabrics can range from 15D (wispy) to 450D (burly). Aim for midweight (70D, often found in 3-layer designs) or higher if you like to climb, scramble or bushwhack off-trail. Sticking to trails? Save ounces by choosing a lightweight design.


Fabrics with Gore-Tex® Lamination:

Junction N-300 - revolutionary combination of high tenacity and false twist textured 70 denier yarns produce a fabric that is more abrasion and tear resistant than any other fabric of its weight.

Weight: 3-oz/sq yd.

More durable in tear and abrasion.
Better snow and rain shedding due to False Twist textured yarn.
Soft hand.
Used in high stress areas. Alpinist.

Sunshine N-187R - combo of 40d flat and 70d false twist textured yarns blends lightweight, durability and a wonderfully soft hand.

Weight: 1.9oz/sq yd.

- Lightweight.
- Durable -Ripstop.
- Better snow and rain shedding due to False Twist Textured yarn.
Used in the body of outerwear for lightweight and packability. Alpinist.

Alpenglow N-280 - 80-denier false twist textured nylon. Tough yet supple.

Weight: 2.8-oz/sq yd.

- Supple.
- Durable.
- Mid-weight.
Used in high stress areas. Ultralight Collection.

Shadowlight N-140R - Lightest and strongest high tenacity 40 denier ripstop available.

Weight: 1.4 oz./sq yd.

- High strength to weight.
- Supple.
- Packable.
Used in body. Ultralight Collection.


----------



## dreampow (Sep 26, 2011)

Lamps said:


> *I think* that goretex doesn't sell the membrane seperately, probably to ensure that there are no quality issues.
> 
> It might be that arcteryx for example gets special fabric but I don't *think* so since the fabrics on their site are named as goretex products by goretex, not just the membrane.
> 
> I'm sure oakley or burton or arcteryx would like consumers to think their fabric is superior to others but I'm *pretty certain* it's not, the difference is in features and sewing etc. Noting of course that goretex makes different grades of fabric.


No offense intended here, but thinking and knowing are very different.

My wife worked for 15 years as a buyer for a chain of shops here in Japan (mainly outdoor activity wear including snow gear). She regularly toured factories and worked with companies on developing products.

Gore tex have to approve the outer fabric and build quality before they will have their badge on it, but the different brands choose their own outer fabrics and strength and thickness varies a lot as the post above shows.

Choose wisely, all gore tex pro products are not the same fabric or build quality at all.


----------



## Lamps (Sep 3, 2011)

dreampow said:


> No offense intended here, but thinking and knowing are very different.
> 
> My wife worked for 15 years as a buyer for a chain of shops here in Japan (mainly outdoor activity wear including snow gear). She regularly toured factories and worked with companies on developing products.
> 
> ...


you're right above - if I knew for sure I would state it as fact. Neither the goretex website nor the couple of manufacturers that I looked at gave the detail of who supplied the fabric. if you've got knowledge from inside the industry that will help me in the future; up till now I had the impression that goretex chose the outer fabric as well as doing the laminating. 

Do you know if goretex ever supplies the fabric or does the outer layer always come from the brands. I'm wondering if there are basic goretex fabrics that are bought by brands that don't develop or select their own fabric?


----------



## Incogneato (Nov 14, 2007)

goretex makes no complete items. they design the laminates and the backers. 

the jackets and pants come in two basic styles, 3L and 2L. they all have 3 layers but are put together differently

inner layer, giore membrane, outer nylon 

3L (like the burton hover or freebird stuff) has the inner lining bonded to the membrane, which is turn bonded to the outer nylon (or sometimes polyester) 

2L (like the Burton stagger/swash/cyclic etc) has the inner layer hanging free, and the membrane is laminated to the outer nylon layer

goretex sells the mebrane in case of 2L fabrics, or the membrane plus liner in the case of 3L. only certain factories are authorized by goretex, and have been trained by goretex to construct the items with their fabric.if you want to make goretex items, you have to contract with certian factories and co develope the item to some degree with goretex.

companies consult with goretex, but the pattern and fabrics used for the outside and other aspects of the jacket are not goretexs concern or decision, mostly.

i say mostly because its true that goretex has to sign off on the design details because they want to protect their brand. they don't want their product used in a way that will tarnish its supposed reputation. ie a company bonds it to cotton and doesn't tape seems etc so that the jacket is pretty much useless.

but this isn't an intense process. the companies don't want to make a junk product either, so they work together to meet some minimum requirements.

thats why you'll find variance. there are simpler peices with the classic membranes that are a lower pricepoint, and marquee items with the latest tech and construction methods.

many things can go wrong in the design, construction and manufacturing process that can lead to varying experiences. sometimes a company will get some bad thread, so the jacket falls apart. sometimes the 3rd party zipper manufacturers blow it and send junky or badly designed zippers (cough cough RIRI). sometimes the companies cut corners, or the factories do (becoming more and more common) without the companies knowing.

sometimes the outerfabric is too light of a weight (denier) and it doesn't hold up to abrasion. sometimes the fabric has a shitty DWR so it soaks up water. the water doesn't come through the membrane but the jackets "wets out" and doesn't breath, and functions like a heatsink making you colder.

and i have to laugh at the OP who bought a Burton jacket of CL and now wants to warranty it. fucking come on.


----------



## Unowned (Feb 5, 2011)

Incogneato said:


> goretex makes no complete items. they design the laminates and the backers.
> 
> the jackets and pants come in two basic styles, 3L and 2L. they all have 3 layers but are put together differently
> 
> ...


1) Why are you laughing?
2) What is CL?
3) Burton called me back last night and are replacing my stagger jacket with a new Burton ak 2l swash in tide.


----------



## ridinbend (Aug 2, 2012)

Unowned said:


> 1) Why are you laughing?
> 2) What is CL?
> 3) Burton called me back last night and are replacing my stagger jacket with a new Burton ak 2l swash in tide.


1. Because you didn't pay full retail (when he does) and your getting a retail warranty. 
2. CL= craigslist 
3. Awesome, way to score


----------



## Incogneato (Nov 14, 2007)

ridinbend said:


> 1. Because you didn't pay full retail (when he does) and your getting a retail warranty.
> 2. CL= craigslist
> 3. Awesome, way to score


Yeah i don't pay retail there bud so keep it in your pants

I'm laughing because its such an incredibly silly sense of entitlement that i see all to often. warranting an item you bought off someone else for super cheap is like eating all your meal at a restuarant and then asking for your money back because it "sucked". typical 'gaming" the sytem bullshit that shows you have little or no character and are just a piece of shit opportunist who thinks they deserve soemthing for free (or next to it). you'll probably argue this point but to me that will just say you know its true inside.


----------



## ridinbend (Aug 2, 2012)

Incogneato said:


> Yeah i don't pay retail there bud so keep it in your pants


My cock is bigger than yours



> I'm laughing because its such an incredibly silly sense of entitlement that i see all "TOO" often.


You work in the returns department at backcountry?


----------



## Incogneato (Nov 14, 2007)

1. maybe? send me a pic?

2. no, you work at Burger King? oh sorry you'd have to be a bit smarter i guess.


----------



## Unowned (Feb 5, 2011)

Incogneato said:


> Yeah i don't pay retail there bud so keep it in your pants
> 
> I'm laughing because its such an incredibly silly sense of entitlement that i see all to often. warranting an item you bought off someone else for super cheap is like eating all your meal at a restuarant and then asking for your money back because it "sucked". typical 'gaming" the sytem bullshit that shows you have little or no character and are just a piece of shit opportunist who thinks they deserve soemthing for free (or next to it). you'll probably argue this point but to me that will just say you know its true inside.


1) so your butthurt that you still overpaid despite paying under retail?
2) who cares whether I bought it off cl or not? The jacket was brand new with tags, with receipt. I didn't buy a half-beaten used jacket. Now, if someone buys it at a discount from a RETAILER, should he not receive the same benefits as someone who bought it at msrp? So exactly how does that make me different? Where should the line be drawn? Who are you to say what's fair and isn't?
3) How much do you think it costs Burton to produce these jackets? They're made in China and you can bulk buy them off alibaba for $100 a piece. Whatever I'm paying, I guarantee you, will cover the production cost of at least 2, maybe 3 jackets. Just who the fuck do you think is profiting from all of this, the salvation army? Get your head out of the gutter man.


----------



## Evizzle (Jan 25, 2014)

The difference between buying in sale from an authorized dealer is you know it's not gray market, and you get a warranty. Buying used, from eBay or Craigslist, even if packaged as new means you are not entitled to a warranty unless specifically spelled out by the company that it is transferable. So much stuff from a major brand is after hours production/gray market goods that they are losing their reputation as a quality company. I'll let you decide who I'm talking about.


----------



## koi (May 16, 2013)

I don't know if someone mentioned this point, but Goretex isn't always made by Goretex. Often Goretex just sets parameters for Oakley, North Face, or whoever they are working with must follow to get the Gortex name on a product…so yes not all Goretex is the same. 

Outside did an article on it awhile back explaining how Goretex is hell for most companies to deal with, and why many companies are making "Goretex," similar products instead.


----------



## Lamps (Sep 3, 2011)

Gore-Tex Under Siege from Waterproof Fabric Newcomers | Outdoor Gear - Equipment Reviews and Articles | OutsideOnline.com


----------



## jliu (Jan 20, 2009)

^that was a long but very interesting read.


----------



## Unowned (Feb 5, 2011)

Evizzle said:


> The difference between buying in sale from an authorized dealer is you know it's not gray market, and you get a warranty. Buying used, from eBay or Craigslist, even if packaged as new means you are not entitled to a warranty unless specifically spelled out by the company that it is transferable. So much stuff from a major brand is after hours production/gray market goods that they are losing their reputation as a quality company. I'll let you decide who I'm talking about.


Christ, i have the receipt from the store the guy bought it from. I sent in the jacket to burton, they verified it was authentic. How much more legit do you want?


----------



## ridinbend (Aug 2, 2012)

Unowned said:


> Christ, i have the receipt from the store the guy bought it from. I sent in the jacket to burton, they verified it was authentic. How much more legit do you want?


Dude, this is an Internet forum, you don't have to prove anything to anybody. You got hooked up by Burton, awesome. Now enjoy it and forget about the whiners.


----------



## Deacon (Mar 2, 2013)

koi said:


> I don't know if someone mentioned this point, but Goretex isn't always made by Goretex. Often Goretex just sets parameters for Oakley, North Face, or whoever they are working with must follow to get the Gortex name on a product…so yes not all Goretex is the same.
> 
> Outside did an article on it awhile back explaining how Goretex is hell for most companies to deal with, and why many companies are making "Goretex," similar products instead.


Goretex IS, in fact, only made by goretex. it's brand. other manufacturers make comparable products to goretex, but they'd get their ass sued if they labeled it goretex. :dunno:


----------



## Unowned (Feb 5, 2011)

I just received an AK 2L Swash jacket from Burton yesterday, from warranty.

A couple of notes about this jacket...
- It's the continuation of the Stagger series with various upgrades...
- Addition of inner wrist-gaiters (I personally love these, as they are snug and great for integration with glove/mitt cuffs)
- New waist gaiter draw string - to tighten up the mid-section
- New primaloft insulation - lighter yet more supple than the insulation found in the older stagger jackets
- The laminate also feels different to the touch... I have the TIDE colorway which features the Ripstop 2-layer...it feels more resilient to the touch but I guess only time will tell how well it will stand up.
- Styling is updated a bit

Overall, I think Burton made some significant upgrades on the Swash model. Their warranty department came through without any hassle, and its more than what I can ask for from any apparel manufacturer. Quite satisfied.


----------



## mhaas (Nov 25, 2007)

Thanks for posting that Lamps. It was an interesting article.


----------

