# Burton board for JAPOW! BM/LL/other?



## Alonzo (Dec 30, 2015)

This Polish shop still has a Hippy Fish, a FT Cheetah and a FT Cloudsplitter. If you want something more twin-ish, they also have a Juicewagon. Pretty rad deals for pretty rad boards.

http://kosmossklep.pl/snowboard/des...&filter[product_field][in_category]=61&query=


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## frankyfc (Aug 11, 2017)

Alonzo said:


> This Polish shop still has a Hippy Fish, a FT Cheetah and a FT Cloudsplitter. If you want something more twin-ish, they also have a Juicewagon. Pretty rad deals for pretty rad boards.
> 
> http://kosmossklep.pl/snowboard/des...&filter[product_field][in_category]=61&query=


They old boards? Never heard of them really? 

Any advice about these vs the ones I mentioned in my initial post?


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## SGboarder (Jun 24, 2012)

frankyfc said:


> So options -
> Branch manager 155?
> Landlord 154/159 - (prob have to be 159)
> Mod fish 156 - (not drawn to this but could be pursuaded, heard a bit slow and tame. Cheaper/lower end?)
> ...


Based on >10 years riding in Japan:
From your list definitely the Mod Fish if this is your only powder board esp for Niseko. Without a doubt. And by far neither tame nor slow nor low-end.
BM is the tits for tree missions but stays in the garage if it is over waist deep.
LL is a great board for bigger mountains/above the tree lines (Nagano area, Asahidake etc) but not quite what you want for the first time in Niseko.
Either one would be better if paired with something a super floaty shorty like the Fish.


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## frankyfc (Aug 11, 2017)

SGboarder said:


> frankyfc said:
> 
> 
> > So options -
> ...


What size mod fish do you reckon?
160lbs-170lbs

That surprises me. 
Think I've got a bad impression of the mod fish from somewhere. Not sure why I read it even now. 
Maybe cos it was described as the "cheaper mans" branch manager by another forum user. 

So you'd bring both a short fish and a separate branch manager? And being the fish out on deep days only?

Feel like I'd be stuck without any freestyle that way though is only thing.


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## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

Alonzo said:


> This Polish shop still has a Hippy Fish, a FT Cheetah and a FT Cloudsplitter. If you want something more twin-ish, they also have a Juicewagon. Pretty rad deals for pretty rad boards.
> 
> Deski snowboardowe - strona: 1 - kosmossklep.pl


Whoa that Cheetah :crazy7::crazy7:

I'd bring that to Japan. Or a Fish.

If you're concerned w freestyle then try to find one of the older Trick Pony.


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## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

But the way, you're a bit lighter than me.... I think the 159 LL would be great. Its pretty agile and good in trees but also stable for faster and bigger stuff. It's maybe a bit too stiff if you want a lot of freestyle though. Same with the Cheetah.

LL is not dead plank stiff... but because it has a lot of carbon it sort of feels like a stiff board; but very lively and poppy and with a very sharp sidecut, so it turns and responds very well. You will not be having a lot of fun trying to jib and press on it a lot. It's an agile freeride board, not really a freestyle stick.

Fish.... or Mod Fish then you'd probably be fine in a 156, but I'm not sure because Japan can get pretty deep. To me, the perfect size for a Fish at my weight (170 lbs) is a 159. I have a 161 Fish, and would not bring a 156 to Japan. I'd bring the 161 for sure.

I also rode a 156 Panhandler and at that size it really surprised me with how well it floated, and was very fun too. Softer and much more freestyle than a LL. But that's new and will cost a lot, so the Mod Fish is a better cheaper alternative.

I also tried a 159 Branch Manager. I would bring that to Japan. It's a mix between a Fish and a Landlord. If I were you, I'd grab a Branch Manager; or that old Cheetah if you can use something else for freestyle or park stuff.

... or if you can find a 158 Flight Attendant then you'd be solid too. A bit easier to press and more switch friendly than the LL. I have a 163 split Flight Att. I'd take it to Japan


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## SGboarder (Jun 24, 2012)

frankyfc said:


> What size mod fish do you reckon?
> 160lbs-170lbs


If you're only pow board: 156.



frankyfc said:


> That surprises me.
> Think I've got a bad impression of the mod fish from somewhere. Not sure why I read it even now.
> Maybe cos it was described as the "cheaper mans" branch manager by another forum user.


Comparing the ModFish and BM is nonsense. First is an excellent all-around versatile pow deck (including some pow freestyle capability) while the second is a specialized tool for powder-y tree missions.



frankyfc said:


> So you'd bring both a short fish and a separate branch manager? And being the fish out on deep days only?
> 
> Feel like I'd be stuck without any freestyle that way though is only thing.


No what I said is definitely skip the BM if you're only bringing one pow deck. In that case get the ModFish.
BM only makes sense in combination with another deck - Fish or LL or in your case probably still the ModFish.


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## frankyfc (Aug 11, 2017)

F1EA said:


> But the way, you're a bit lighter than me.... I think the 159 LL would be great. Its pretty agile and good in trees but also stable for faster and bigger stuff. It's maybe a bit too stiff if you want a lot of freestyle though. Same with the Cheetah.
> 
> LL is not dead plank stiff... but because it has a lot of carbon it sort of feels like a stiff board; but very lively and poppy and with a very sharp sidecut, so it turns and responds very well. You will not be having a lot of fun trying to jib and press on it a lot. It's an agile freeride board, not really a freestyle stick.
> 
> ...


So basically... i'll be sweet with either the FA, LL, BM, Fish or modified fish? hah.:embarrased1:
I can get a 156 FA very cheap, the shop described it as a stiff board though...
Basically i can get an FA/BM/LL/Mod-fish all for the same price.
Which might be what put my off the mod-fish cos all the others are discounted way more and Mod-fish not so much for a board worth 30-40% less at retail. Would totally just get the panhandler if it wasnt twice the price i can get on last seasons.
The sizes are all around the 156mark that are available, which makes sense on fish types but maybe too short on FA/LL. Worried a 159 of those will be plank like for turning/trees/freestyle.

By freestyle on these i mainly mean jumping/spinning off-piste/in deep. I won't need to take them through parks as i'll take a freestyle board. But no matter where i ride, i'll jump over and onto s**t...



SGboarder said:


> If you're only pow board: 156.
> 
> 
> Comparing the ModFish and BM is nonsense. First is an excellent all-around versatile pow deck (including some pow freestyle capability) while the second is a specialized tool for powder-y tree missions.
> ...


The mod-fish is more freestyle capable than the BM? surprised me given the tail on the modfish. Looks narrow/short for pop and switch. Altho if it jumps well and handles spins then fine.

So you'd take both the Modfish and BM? Seems quite a similar two board quiver...

Few mentions of the trick pony - that really looks like a twin freestyle deck these days??
Maybe a mod-fish or LL and a trick pony as my other board?


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## GDimac (Nov 19, 2015)

F1EA said:


> ... or if you can find a 158 Flight Attendant then you'd be solid too. A bit easier to press and more switch friendly than the LL. I have a 163 split Flight Att. I'd take it to Japan


Ya, 159 would be awesome. FA is a sick deck. Geared at big mtn/pow freestyle from my understanding, a lot of the Burton team use it to send it in the backcountry and Japow, like in these next 2 amazing clips of Christian Haller steezin' with the 59 FA. Ben Ferg rides the same one very often, Mcmorris too when he's not doing comps.

Haller steezin' in Japow w/ 59 FA:







Another of Haller ripping with the 59 FA


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## Argo (Feb 25, 2010)

I see ben Ferguson quite often through the season and he rides a ton of different boards when thr cameras are not looking. He was stoked on my fullbag diamond blade the first day i rode it. He was on a custom x that day... I have seen him with many burton boards but some others too.


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## GDimac (Nov 19, 2015)

Argo said:


> I see ben Ferguson quite often through the season and he rides a ton of different boards when thr cameras are not looking. He was stoked on my fullbag diamond blade the first day i rode it. He was on a custom x that day... I have seen him with many burton boards but some others too.


Ya, I remember you sharing that story. That's awesome. Guess you see him and his bro, and his Bach crew all the time then, eh? So sick, must be a ton of fun riding with them. 

And that's cool to know, bout the off camera thing, never seen him ride anything else but the Custom or FA most of the time in his edits. The odd Gatekeeper here and there.


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## Argo (Feb 25, 2010)

There are a couple of distinct pro groups there and they dont really hang together often. 

Group 1. Drink water guys.

Group 2. A. Ben ferg and a couple of his friends.
B. Gabe and like 8 dudes. 

The bros overlap sometimes but they are separate alot. Ben is more of a natural anomaly in pipe/park, or paid is dues at a young age. Gabe spends more time in the parks, still paying his dues.


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## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

frankyfc said:


> So basically... i'll be sweet with either the FA, LL, BM, Fish or modified fish? hah.:embarrased1:


Yeah pretty much haha 
Add a Endeavor Maverick 

Basically it depends what specifically you want and if you want 1 board only, or a small quiver or if you want much more emphasis on freestyle vs freeride or some groomer capability.

1 board only, hard to argue with a Flight Attendant or Mod Fish. 

The FA is definitely stiffer than Mod Fish (and Fish). But that makes it more stable and better on chopped stuff...


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## w4rtortle (Aug 16, 2016)

So consensus is FA will survive Japow?


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## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

w4rtortle said:


> So consensus is FA will survive Japow?


If sized properly. Yes.

Because the FA is a bit more of a regular board. So don't expect a 165 lbs guy to get super float on a 156 in waist deep flatish slopes...... a 156 Fish or some sorts will be more adequate in those conditions.

I'm 170 lbs and wouldn't bring a 158 FA to Japan. But would bring a 158 Archetype or 159 Branch Manager.


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## frankyfc (Aug 11, 2017)

F1EA said:


> Yeah pretty much haha
> Add a Endeavor Maverick
> 
> Basically it depends what specifically you want and if you want 1 board only, or a small quiver or if you want much more emphasis on freestyle vs freeride or some groomer capability.
> ...


So a 156 mod fish vs a 155 or 159 BM vs a 159 FA.
At a current weight 165lbs. 
These are the deals i can get for similar prices long as those sizes.

I'll probably use this for pow and backcountry and just have a freestyle (maybe custom twin) sitting at the flat for non-dump days. 




w4rtortle said:


> So consensus is FA will survive Japow?





F1EA said:


> If sized properly. Yes.
> 
> Because the FA is a bit more of a regular board. So don't expect a 165 lbs guy to get super float on a 156 in waist deep flatish slopes...... a 156 Fish or some sorts will be more adequate in those conditions.
> 
> I'm 170 lbs and wouldn't bring a 158 FA to Japan. But would bring a 158 Archetype or 159 Branch Manager.


So you'd be going like 162 for an FA?
I find it harder to imagine the FA in deep Powder - just as you say cos it looks like a very regular board. They also market it as all-mountain free-ride board that is "pow capable" rather than a pow specific deck. I'm worred about the "stiff" flex rating. some sites say 8/10. 
And at over 160 sounds like being a risk of it feeling like a stiff plank to ride.

I normally ride a 154 capita DOA alot. 
Rode a K2 Ultradream in 158 and it felt planky/boring when not in Pow - and to be honestly not even amazing in Pow. I rode my DOA alot even on pow days cos it swung around and jumped better. 
Reckon a 159 BM would feel better than the ultradream even tho its even slightly longer?

Don't wanna get out to Japan with expensive boards that aren't for me - on trip of a lifetime ha. :blahblah:


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## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

frankyfc said:


> So a 156 mod fish vs a 155 or 159 BM vs a 159 FA.
> At a current weight 165lbs.
> These are the deals i can get for similar prices long as those sizes.
> 
> ...


Yep. But also you wouldn't want to go to Japan and find yourself getting stuck all the time. Whatever you found slow and big in any other condition... will feel very different in very light very deep pow. So if you go with ~156 it has to be a pow shape. If ~158+ it can be a FA-type board.

So in your case, don't go for the big ones because you already know you won't like that feel. But up to 159 FA or LL will be pretty good. They're not too stiff, but definitely not like a freestyle board. I have a 159 LL and it's great; the board I ride most, but I would rather bring the 161 Fish to Japan, although if I had to ride the 159 LL I wouldn't complain.

So...... 
Blue Pill: 156 Fish, 155 BM. These are really fun boards. Fish is softer; BM is very snappy, and very nice on groomers too. I found the 159 BM easier to maneuver and turn than my 161 Fish because it is more responsive (I think because the BM has the carbon from the LL, but the core/stiffness from the Fish).

Red Pill: 159 FA/ LL. These will be more versatile boards that will feel better when going a bit faster but will also be good in tighter areas especially if there's fresh snow. Neither is a plank but they are not soft. The LL feels looser on hardpack but it's a blast whenever it's not icy. FA can handle anything, has more camber - doesn't feel as floaty as LL and is much better to ride switch.


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## GDimac (Nov 19, 2015)

159 FA* Gotchu dude  ... wish they did make it 158 tho


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## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

GDimac said:


> 159 FA* Gotchu dude  ... wish they did make it 158 tho


Ah yes, 158 is for the split. Same thing anyway.. actually, even better for Japan.


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## frankyfc (Aug 11, 2017)

F1EA said:


> Yep. But also you wouldn't want to go to Japan and find yourself getting stuck all the time. Whatever you found slow and big in any other condition... will feel very different in very light very deep pow. So if you go with ~156 it has to be a pow shape. If ~158+ it can be a FA-type board.
> 
> So in your case, don't go for the big ones because you already know you won't like that feel. But up to 159 FA or LL will be pretty good. They're not too stiff, but definitely not like a freestyle board. I have a 159 LL and it's great; the board I ride most, but I would rather bring the 161 Fish to Japan, although if I had to ride the 159 LL I wouldn't complain.
> 
> ...


Blue: As in 156 fish or do you mean mod fish? can't find a fish as cheap as a mod anywhere.
BM - do i go 155 or 159? i can get either. 
Did like the BM, gone off with everyone telling me its not right for japan - which is pretty strange for the only board in the lineup designed _for_ japan, by a japanese rider. 
But to be fair, its barely tapered and not that wide.

Red: I'd go 159 FA over LL for my riding i think. Sounds more freestyle able. These sound better options than i first thought - i'd thought they sounded too all mountain and not floaty enough initially.

Basically, i am wanting quick turning, snappy/slashy but with enough float. If they happen to have decent level of pop for some freestyle in POW then bonus!

Thinking its gunna be either of them and then a custom twin or a trick pony to complete quiver.
Thought about a mod-fish and the FA quiver, but feel to similar and dunno when i'd choose what.

Or _green_ pill - bear with me - just go maverick and grab something like a capita charlie slasher, or small like a k2 party platter :surprise:


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## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

I don't know man... Whoever's said a Branch Manager is not good for Japan/Pow better have some true facts/reasoning and not some bullshit "I heard this or that"... 

If you're getting also a Trick Pony, then go with one of the more directional powder boards then. Like Fish/BM/LL plus a Trick Pony.

If only one, then the FA or Mod fish in your case.

Also, whenever I say Fish I mean either Mod or the regular. I have the regular, but the Mod fish is about equally capable and maybe a bit more versatile. The regular is pretty dope though.

See if you can find any of these boards used and at good price. Then grab another to complete the Japan quiver 

Ahh also I had a Charlie Slasher... it's good, but pretty stiff and very long radius, so definitely a lot slower and not as lively than all these Burton boards. Burton typically goes with really aggressive sidecuts....


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## w4rtortle (Aug 16, 2016)

6' 185lbs 11.5 boot, would a 159w FA work in the jpow you think? 

Does the extra width of the wide mean I can have it a bit smaller?


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## SGboarder (Jun 24, 2012)

frankyfc said:


> Blue: As in 156 fish or do you mean mod fish? can't find a fish as cheap as a mod anywhere.


Wither Fish or ModFish is fine. 



frankyfc said:


> BM - do i go 155 or 159? i can get either.
> Did like the BM, gone off with everyone telling me its not right for japan - which is pretty strange for the only board in the lineup designed _for_ japan, by a japanese rider.
> But to be fair, its barely tapered and not that wide.


159 - and it might still not float enough. It is neither designed by a Japanese rider nor for Japan. Most importantly it is not a powder board - at least by Japan standards. Rather it is a board for powder-y tree missions.



frankyfc said:


> Red: I'd go 159 FA over LL for my riding i think. Sounds more freestyle able. These sound better options than i first thought - i'd thought they sounded too all mountain and not floaty enough initially.


FA is not a bad choice. Upsize enough and anything will float. 159 might be a smidgen short for your size but still better than anything that you have right now (and you do not want to go too long given your freestyle inclination and that you'll be doing a lot of tree riding).



frankyfc said:


> Basically, i am wanting quick turning, snappy/slashy but with enough float. If they happen to have decent level of pop for some freestyle in POW then bonus!
> 
> Thinking its gunna be either of them and then a custom twin or a trick pony to complete quiver.
> Thought about a mod-fish and the FA quiver, but feel to similar and dunno when i'd choose what.


One board solution: 156 ModFish. Maybe 159 or 162 FA.
Two board solution: 156 Fish or ModFish plus FA/Trick Pony/Custom Twin/larger version of your assassin.


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## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

Burton says:

Branch Manager
A professional pow surfer, specializing in snappy slashes and threading fine lines through the forest.

Designed in collaboration with Japanese powder guru Narufumi “Beru” Yoshimura, the NEW Burton Branch Manager features one of the most interesting shapes in the line, fine-tuned for slashing and weaving through trees and floating through open pow fields. Prioritizing float and quick-turning ability, it features the snap of carbon-reinforced Squeezebox High profiling and a directional camber shape that earns its name when you need to dodge a rogue sapling while threading a fine line through the forest.


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## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

SGboarder said:


> Wither Fish or ModFish is fine.
> 
> 
> 159 - and it might still not float enough. It is neither designed by a Japanese rider nor for Japan. Most importantly it is not a powder board - at least by Japan standards. Rather it is a board for powder-y tree missions.
> ...


Yeah. For sizes, definitely upsize a little.

Wide will add some float... maybe enough. But length will make it a bit slower. You're talking about Japan though. So longer is always fine.

The FA has more edge length,more camber and less setback and taper than the LL so it is noticeably slower to turn. Not even close to being a plank, but LL is more floaty, responsive and loose feeling which equals easier to turn...

As for Mod Fish vs BM, I guess look at the profile and carbon. Fish if you're looking for flat rocker, BM if you're a camber guy. Fish kinda easier to bend, BM more snappy.

In my mind, for a Japan-specific board I wouldn't get a FA.not because it can't handle it, but because once you're there might as well go with stuff that's all out. Like Fish, Yes 420, Dupraz, Endeavor Archetype, Korua, etc. A FA is great if you want versatility and a board you can ride almost anywhere.


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## francium (Jan 12, 2013)

Nobody mentioned the Panhandler or the Dump Truck??


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## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

francium said:


> Nobody mentioned the Panhandler or the Dump Truck??


Yup. But no. 
Because looking for heavy prev season discounts.


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## frankyfc (Aug 11, 2017)

F1EA said:


> I don't know man... Whoever's said a Branch Manager is not good for Japan/Pow better have some true facts/reasoning and not some bullshit "I heard this or that"...
> 
> Also, whenever I say Fish I mean either Mod or the regular. I have the regular, but the Mod fish is about equally capable and maybe a bit more versatile. The regular is pretty dope though.
> 
> ...


Looking at some reviews online, other than on here the mod-fish doesn't do very well. 
For example angry snowboarders review - 
He felt the boards tail was stiff and caught up on turns, he also commented that he wouldn't want to take it through trees as when he did it was slow and not snappy enough?
_"In the woods this is not a very forgiving deck as it takes a lot of effort to foot steer it."_
Whereas the BM he raved about.
Fair enough he's slightly lighter than me at 155lbs vs my 160-165... but still. 
Big contrast in the modfish to the BM. 

2016 Burton Mod Fish Snowboard Review - The Angry Snowboarder
2017 Burton Branch Manager Snowboard Review - The Angry Snowboarder

And that BM review is a 177lb rider on a 155 - fair enough not in JAPOW though.
The lack of float people talk of on the BM is pushing me to the mod-fish for japan but the reviews are poor. Even getting the BM in 159 might be a mistake as takes away the responsiveness of a short board and still may be sub-par to float. Wish i could test them!

Few other reviews such as Guf at house.com suggest MF good for "slow drawn out cruisers" but not so much for quick riding. 



SGboarder said:


> Wither Fish or ModFish is fine.
> 
> 
> 159 - and it might still not float enough. It is neither designed by a Japanese rider nor for Japan. Most importantly it is not a powder board - at least by Japan standards. Rather it is a board for powder-y tree missions.


As F1EA has said above - literally the burton description suggests everything about it was aimed at Japan and in fact was collaborated with Japanese boarders.




F1EA said:


> Burton says:
> 
> Designed in collaboration with Japanese powder guru Narufumi “Beru” Yoshimura, the NEW Burton Branch Manager features one of the most interesting shapes in the line, fine-tuned for slashing and weaving through trees and floating through open pow fields. Prioritizing float and quick-turning ability, it features the snap of carbon-reinforced Squeezebox High profiling and a directional camber shape that earns its name when you need to dodge a rogue sapling while threading a fine line through the forest.





F1EA said:


> Yeah. For sizes, definitely upsize a little.
> 
> In my mind, for a Japan-specific board I wouldn't get a FA.not because it can't handle it, but because once you're there might as well go with stuff that's all out. Like Fish, Yes 420, Dupraz, Endeavor Archetype, Korua, etc. A FA is great if you want versatility and a board you can ride almost anywhere.


So size-wise i'd get away with mod-fish in 156 just cos of shape, whereas FA and BM need upsizing?
Whilst i'm an experienced boarder, my board tech knowledge is poor as you can see! Previously ridden hand me downs and what i can find on ebay!



francium said:


> Nobody mentioned the Panhandler or the Dump Truck??


Unfortunately as Pan handler is brand new only, price puts it at double what i'll pay for anything else :crying:

Thanks everyone - so much more helpful than my local shop that just tried to sell the most expensive one and told me mod-fish is "the cheaper board for beginner powder riders really".


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## francium (Jan 12, 2013)

F1EA said:


> Yup. But no.
> Because looking for heavy prev season discounts.


Ahh fair enough Panhandler looks interesting though.


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## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

francium said:


> Ahh fair enough Panhandler looks interesting though.


Yeah, I tried a Panhandler 156 and it was amazing. Tried the Skeleton Key on the same day, and I found it more meh. 
Panhandler was super floaty and fun. SK was stiffer, very stable and had incredible edge hold, but I found it more boring. A board for someone who loves carving and going fast. Panhandler, more for someone who wants to have more slashy freestyle fun in deep snow.

I wish I had tried the Branch Manager on that same day, but the day I tried it was heavier pow and nice groomers. The day I tried those two ^ was a super good day.


For Mod Fish vs BM sizing... look at the specs. Mod Fish 156 is wider, more taper, more setback and longer effective edge than BM... the 156 M Fish even has more eff edge than the 159 BM and a much bigger turn radius.

But I wouldn't say the 159 BM will loose the feeling of being agile because it has tiny sidecut radius, very small effective edge, it's also not as wide as the Mod Fish. So it doesn't feel like a regular longer board.

:nerd:


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## francium (Jan 12, 2013)

Yeah I don't know what all the fuss about the SK is about I prefer the FA, branch manager was fun be interesting to see how the panhandler compares.


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## SGboarder (Jun 24, 2012)

frankyfc said:


> Looking at some reviews online, other than on here the mod-fish doesn't do very well.
> For example angry snowboarders review -
> He felt the boards tail was stiff and caught up on turns, he also commented that he wouldn't want to take it through trees as when he did it was slow and not snappy enough?
> _"In the woods this is not a very forgiving deck as it takes a lot of effort to foot steer it."_
> ...


That is a mis-reading:
1. Angry specifically recommended the ModFish for Japan pow. The comment about the trees was on _foot_ steering - i.e., *non pow* riding. The fact that the ModFish has (at least some) tail gives it a bit more freestyle versatility to pop off things, etc.

There is a who direction of this review on another thread where somebody was looking of pow freestyle deck:
http://www.snowboardingforum.com/bo...-kakubo-pro-model-opinions-3.html#post3102130

2. You are also misunderstanding my position on the BM. I *love* the board - in something like the Pacific Northwest. But it is *pointless in Japan* - in the ~4 weeks that I had it last season, I used it maybe 1-2 times.

3. The House videos are not reviews but other advertising clips that (fairly accurately) repeat what the manufacturers say about boards with a couple of opinions thrown in. I am not aware that he has ever been to Japan and he sure as hell has not ridden all the boards here...



frankyfc said:


> As F1EA has said above - literally the burton description suggests everything about it was aimed at Japan and in fact was collaborated with Japanese boarders.


Yes, that is literally what Burton says, but it is not what they are suggesting at all. It is nice marketing blurb, but it is clear that this is not a board for Japan pow. There is a reason that you do not see many BM's in Japan - even the Burton guys show come here generally bring other boards. That should tell you something.
Even Yoshimura hardly rides it. He has publicly stated that he prefers the Dump Truck and Cheetah over the BM (and that the BM is a "skate" version of the Cheetah, which was not primarily a pow deck either). And he rides a ModFish too sometimes...





frankyfc said:


> So size-wise i'd get away with mod-fish in 156 just cos of shape, whereas FA and BM need upsizing?
> Whilst i'm an experienced boarder, my board tech knowledge is poor as you can see! Previously ridden hand me downs and what i can find on ebay!


Yes, because the ModFish is a pow deck and the other 2 are not. That is why the first can be ridden shorter/as designed but you need to upsize the others to get enough float. 





frankyfc said:


> Unfortunately as Pan handler is brand new only, price puts it at double what i'll pay for anything else :crying:
> 
> Thanks everyone - so much more helpful than my local shop that just tried to sell the most expensive one and told me mod-fish is "the cheaper board for beginner powder riders really".


Look, it is pretty clear that you are really into the BM. So do not let a bunch of guys on the internet talk to you in or out of it.
But you asked about opinions/experience on suitability of Burton boards in Japan and mine is that the BM is useless/pointless: It is like using a high-end sports car for off-roading - does not work.


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## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

Yeah I'm with SG. The BM has camber, which turns it into a bit of a better board when stuff is chopped; but the flat/rocker profile in the Mod Fish and regular Fish is just awesome to ride in pow. Same with the Panhandler..... on deep dry pow it's a blast.


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## AbandonCouch (Aug 15, 2017)

Ya it's got some rep behind it


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## frankyfc (Aug 11, 2017)

SGboarder said:


> frankyfc said:
> 
> 
> > Looking at some reviews online, other than on here the mod-fish doesn't do very well.
> ...





F1EA said:


> Yeah I'm with SG. The BM has camber, which turns it into a bit of a better board when stuff is chopped; but the flat/rocker profile in the Mod Fish and regular Fish is just awesome to ride in pow. Same with the Panhandler..... on deep dry pow it's a blast.





AbandonCouch said:


> Ya it's got some rep behind it


Thanks all! Appreciate getting your more knowledgable input. 
Bottom line is, I don't have money to throw around so want it to be right. Hence my over the top questioning! Ha. 

I'm going with the 156 mod-fish I think. And then maybe a trick pony 154 for days when it's not deep enough for just pow riding. 

If I can see the panhandler anywhere for even a 10% I would maybe just gamble and bite the bullet ha. Couldn't afford a second board with this.
Good one board quiver specifically for Japan? 
Pretty much could getviybfor


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## LALUNE (Feb 23, 2017)

F1EA said:


> So in your case, don't go for the big ones because you already know you won't like that feel. But up to 159 FA or LL will be pretty good. They're not too stiff, but definitely not like a freestyle board. I have a 159 LL and it's great; the board I ride most, but I would rather bring the 161 Fish to Japan, although if I had to ride the 159 LL I wouldn't complain.



I was trying hard to not buy a Fish 156 this year for next year's Japan trip cuz I already own a 159 LL, this reply just gives me all the reasons to place my order


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## ekb18c (Mar 11, 2013)

I'm heading to Japan this upcoming season too and was planning on bringing the FA and the CAXX but now I might look for a BM. Dammmmm


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## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

LALUNE said:


> I was trying hard to not buy a Fish 156 this year for next year's Japan trip cuz I already own a 159 LL, this reply just gives me all the reasons to place my order





ekb18c said:


> I'm heading to Japan this upcoming season too and was planning on bringing the FA and the CAXX but now I might look for a BM. Dammmmm


hahah
Yeah not the best place to get economic restraint and support 

I think everyone should try a Fish on a proper deep pow day. Don't have to buy one, can rent one for an epic day.

I ride mine like 3-4 days a season, maybe less... but everytime it's amazing.


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## w4rtortle (Aug 16, 2016)

For a burton fish do you downsize it much?

How would the Endeavor Archetype compare to the fish? 

I don't have channel bindings but those are the two I'm sort of most closely look at as my japan boards for next season.

My thoughts are like any day less than 30cm I'll ride my all mountain board, anything over and I want a full on proper powder fish typed thing.


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## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

w4rtortle said:


> For a burton fish do you downsize it much?
> 
> How would the Endeavor Archetype compare to the fish?
> 
> ...


You don't need special channel bindings. Almost all bindings work on channel. Ride, Now, Burton reflex, Rome, Union, Flux all work..... (but Flux and Now you have to ask for the channel discs which they give for free).

For fish, you can either ride the same size of your normal boards or a little bit smaller. But... normal depends on what you actually use.

Some people like really short parky boards, so those can probably go with the same size Fish but ride it in pow. Others ride longer freeride boards, so those can go a bit shorter but for pow...

I normally ride ~159+

My Fish is 161 so that's bigger but it's super floaty. I would have never guessed a 156 Fish would be enough for me, but after riding the 156 Panhandler I think I should try a 156 Fish just to see; but I still think for me, best size Fish would be 159 (which they don't make).

My Archetype is 158. Pretty sure that'll be perfect in size. But I don't know how they compare in ride as I haven't ridden the A-type yet. Carpet flexing i think about 6/10 because of the swallow tail effect and with plenty of tail to press, pop off and land on which the Fish doesn't have much. The Mod fish does (have a tail).


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## w4rtortle (Aug 16, 2016)

@F1EA 

Yeah I was looking at either the 158 A-type or a 156 fish or something else similar. Fish is much cheaper for me but archetype looks so cool. Would like it to be quick in the trees. 

I'm 6' 185lbs but I usually ride a 158w, not sure how that would compare to you?


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## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

w4rtortle said:


> @F1EA
> 
> Yeah I was looking at either the 158 A-type or a 156 fish or something else similar. Fish is much cheaper for me but archetype looks so cool. Would like it to be quick in the trees.
> 
> I'm 6' 185lbs but I usually ride a 158w, not sure how that would compare to you?


At 185 lbs definitely not the 156 Fish. 158 Archetype might be fine. But if Fish, go for the 161... or just a different board altogether.

I ride boards 159-165 but quick in trees is a matter of a few things not just the board length.


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## JDA (Feb 10, 2016)

You can't go wrong with a Fish in Japan, you will see they are super common when you get there and there is a good reason for that.

I'm 85kg and ride a 148 skipjack surf and will be taking my springbreak twin 154 over next year too.


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## w4rtortle (Aug 16, 2016)

If you don't mind me asking what are you riding as a daily driver?


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## JDA (Feb 10, 2016)

w4rtortle said:


> If you don't mind me asking what are you riding as a daily driver?


In Japan this year I rode the skipjack exclusively. The springbreak is new and I bought it mostly for riding in Aus but I am taking it to Japan next year even though I don't think it will be that good on a typical Japan powder day but in the unlikely event of no fresh snow it will be fun to take out.


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## frankyfc (Aug 11, 2017)

ekb18c said:


> I'm heading to Japan this upcoming season too and was planning on bringing the FA and the CAXX but now I might look for a BM. Dammmmm


Surprised the BM is what you took away from this for Japan... most advice was not for Japan. 



F1EA said:


> w4rtortle said:
> 
> 
> > @F1EA
> ...





JDA said:


> You can't go wrong with a Fish in Japan, you will see they are super common when you get there and there is a good reason for that.
> 
> I'm 85kg and ride a 148 skipjack surf and will be taking my springbreak twin 154 over next year too.


Just looked through the new burton line. Wish the panhandler wasn't double the price of a mod fish and I'd go for it. 

Out of interest - they've dropped the mod-fish out of the line? Does that mean anything? - I.e. Not worth continuing, or not good enough and replaced with something better?


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## ekb18c (Mar 11, 2013)

What I got out of these posts from SG and F1EA is that if you are bringing one board then the BM should not be the only board.

Having said that, I'm bringing more than just 1 board. Now, are there similarities with CAXX and BM? Sure, but then again I have a problem when it comes with self control and new boards.


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## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

frankyfc said:


> Surprised the BM is what you took away from this for Japan... most advice was not for Japan.
> 
> 
> Just looked through the new burton line. Wish the panhandler wasn't double the price of a mod fish and I'd go for it.
> ...


I think Burton dropped it because it doesn't sell well. There's lots at really good prices everywhere. 

They also dropped the Landlord which is a solid board and probably their best selling splitboard. Now they have Dump Truck and a mystery Malolo. So.. I wouldn't read much into why they drop boards. 

Yeah for all you have described, PH or Deep Thinker or the older flat camber Trick Pony sound like exactly what you're looking for.



ekb18c said:


> What I got out of these posts from SG and F1EA is that if you are bringing one board then the BM should not be the only board.
> 
> Having said that, I'm bringing more than just 1 board. Now, are there similarities with CAXX and BM? Sure, but then again I have a problem when it comes with self control and new boards.


Yeah, most of all these boards are ok. Thing is different people have different boards and preferences and are willing to compromise here and there differently.

The biggest diff in BM vs the Fishes and PH is the camber. 

A board like BM would be better for someone wanting a directional board that will be good in Japan, good in trees, but also good for other places where camber feels better in more conditions. The setback is manageable, as you can just set the bindings backwards a bit. You could say the same for FA except it's more regular twin-like.

Fish better for someone who wants a bit softer flex and to just maximise Japan powder.

Either is fine, just different strength and compromises.


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## Alonzo (Dec 30, 2015)

frankyfc said:


> Just looked through the new burton line. Wish the panhandler wasn't double the price of a mod fish and I'd go for it.
> 
> Out of interest - they've dropped the mod-fish out of the line? Does that mean anything? - I.e. Not worth continuing, or not good enough and replaced with something better?



Don't read into it too hard, Burton drops good boards out the Family Tree lineup every year. They dropped the Landlord this year, which is a universally praised deck, just like they dropped the Con Artist a few years back, which everyone also loved. They'll probably bring the Landlord back in a couple years after the hype has built up. The 2019 FT line is bringing back the Con Artist and the Cheetah. Who knows, there may be a new Mod Fish in time.


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## frankyfc (Aug 11, 2017)

F1EA said:


> I think Burton dropped it because it doesn't sell well. There's lots at really good prices everywhere.
> 
> They also dropped the Landlord which is a solid board and probably their best selling splitboard. Now they have Dump Truck and a mystery Malolo. So.. I wouldn't read much into why they drop boards.
> 
> Yeah for all you have described, PH or Deep Thinker or the older flat camber Trick Pony sound like exactly what you're looking for.


Wait PH - Panhandler as my other deck?
Surely the overlap with the mod-fish is way too close?

And you say the older trick pony, the new one a no go? didn't know they'd changed much

Vaguely was thinking if i have the mod-fish, need a more all-mountain freestyle deck for other non-dump days, and for other resorts (in europe). I plan to ride park still so not taking a fish through there... 
If i have a PH and a mod-fish, dunno how i'll decide each day what to take... and one of them will have to settle for groomers/park runs.

Did fancy the deep thinker but expensibe as only this seasons out, and also is supposedly slighlty POW focused. Looking at custom twin, trick pony, something like that as an alternative other board.
Guess i could even get the FA and make it work as all-mountain freestyle?
But given its pow capable i'll wanna take it out on pow days andmakes the modfish redundant hah :crying:


----------



## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

frankyfc said:


> Wait PH - Panhandler as my other deck?
> Surely the overlap with the mod-fish is way too close?
> 
> And you say the older trick pony, the new one a no go? didn't know they'd changed much
> ...


No, I mean PH, Fish and Mod Fish... are pretty similar.
Then boards like LL, FA, Gatekeeper etc are in a different sort of category.
And then the BM is somewhere in-between.

All of them will be fun in powder. But are just different.

They changed the Trick pony.... it started flat camber and rocker tips, then moved to rocker tips and camber. Dont remember the exact year when they started changing.


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## ekb18c (Mar 11, 2013)

Too much analysis. Just ride and eat great food.


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## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

ekb18c said:


> Too much analysis. Just ride and eat great food.


lol
Party pooper.


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## frankyfc (Aug 11, 2017)

F1EA said:


> No, I mean PH, Fish and Mod Fish... are pretty similar.
> Then boards like LL, FA, Gatekeeper etc are in a different sort of category.
> And then the BM is somewhere in-between.
> 
> ...





F1EA said:


> lol
> Party pooper.


To continue the analysis hah...

I talked to angry snowboarder about the branch manager in japan. 
response
"you found a Branch Manager in a 155 that’s on sale? That board has been sold out globally. Anyone that says it won’t have “enough float” clearly doesn’t know how to ride pow. It’s great in trees and decent in wide open terrain. Plus the camber profile is solid for playing around in pow."

I've bought a mod fish 156 online but have 24hours to cancel if needed.
So wondering whether to jump across to the BM after all.
Very confused. Don't know which will be better.
Want float, snappy quick turns, lively ride and potentially bit of freestyle jumping off of stuff and the odd spin


EDIT:
Also this is his end review of the BM:
Personal Thoughts: It’s been a long time since Burton made a board that stood out as being awesome as fuck. This is that board. It was surfy, yet snappy, and had a lot of precision behind it. I could rail a hard turn then slash through some knee deep snow with ease. In the trees this board wanted to go fast and push itself through the turns. The synopsis for this board is; just buy it and you won’t be disappointed.

The mod-fish was basically an underwhelmed conclusion trying to give the board benefit of the doubt as may have been too big size slightly.


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## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

But both!

Not even a joke. Ride them both in Japan, sell the one you liked least.


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## frankyfc (Aug 11, 2017)

F1EA said:


> But both!
> 
> Not even a joke. Ride them both in Japan, sell the one you liked least.


Would love to...

Leaves me with no all mountain/cruddy day/park board all season tho, is the only problem...


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## SGboarder (Jun 24, 2012)

frankyfc said:


> To continue the analysis hah...
> 
> I talked to angry snowboarder about the branch manager in japan.
> response
> ...


Avran sure is a generally well informed dude, often entertaining, occasionally biased, etc. He is hugely opinionated and often his opinions are worth consideration - but he is not always right. In this case he has little basis for his opinion.
Most importantly he has no experience of riding in Japan, of the conditions here etc
Also, his reviews are based on pretty limited time spent on each board. He almost certainly is better at sussing out a deck more quickly than most people but there are still limitations on how much anybody can learn in such a short period.
I ride not nearly as many decks as he does (still a fair number though) but I spent several days on the boards mentioned in this thread in Japan.

And if you want to throw anecdotal 'evidence' into this: You see lots of Fishes and ModFishes being ridden in Japan. I have seen 1 BM (other than the one that our crew had) on the hill but many many in the adverts/second hand listings.


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## francium (Jan 12, 2013)

Must admit when I rode the BM it was in Europe in heavier pow, I found it fun but doesn't have the float of a fish I assume due to the lack of surface area. It may of been designed in collaboration with Narufumi Yoshimura but I ain't no pro and most pros could probably ride a tea tray in powder and still look good. All of my powder boards are different but they all have decent surface area to keep me on top and to minimise leg burn.


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## GDimac (Nov 19, 2015)

frankyfc said:


> To continue the analysis hah...
> 
> I talked to angry snowboarder about the branch manager in japan.
> response ...



He actually has been coming back here more often nowadays, Angry is @BurtonAvenger on here, as well in case you didn't know. And @Nivek is Kevin, also from Angrysnowboarder, which is helpful and dope that they stay connected directly with the shred community online :nerd:.


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## eli783 (Oct 24, 2012)

I pulled the trigger on a 155 BM about a week ago after reading through this dude's review on it. Juggling by what hes saying there are certainly better boards for the deeper days but it can still get things done


Burton Branch Manager - All-Mountain Hardboot boards - Bomber Online Forums


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## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

eli783 said:


> I pulled the trigger on a 155 BM about a week ago after reading through this dude's review on it. Juggling by what hes saying there are certainly better boards for the deeper days but it can still get things done
> 
> 
> Burton Branch Manager - All-Mountain Hardboot boards - Bomber Online Forums


Daaamn... those pics in his review 

I agree with most of his points.

I did try a 159 BM back to back with my 159 LL. So for me, the BM was less "twitchy" than the LL Maybe because of the extra width and milder setback. But that makes the LL super sharp in trees. Love it The sidecut is definitely more aggressive on the BM, but in pow you won't notice it...

I remember when I rode it I felt it was a cross between a Fish and Landlord.

Anyways.... snowboards are cool toys.


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## ekb18c (Mar 11, 2013)

Im buying the BM and the skip jack.


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## frankyfc (Aug 11, 2017)

F1EA said:


> Daaamn... those pics in his review
> 
> I agree with most of his points.
> 
> ...


Yeah, it looks incredible!

So the mod-fish arrived today - totally stoked. Looks sick and now that i've held it and looked properly i can see exactly what makes it more suitable for POW. Width/setback/flex/taper all look perfect. 
Having looked at the BM in store the week before i'm very glad with the decision. 
Thanks for your help team!


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## flatblackkustom (Aug 23, 2017)

I have a round tail fish 156 and it is amazing! Just sayin'!


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## frankyfc (Aug 11, 2017)

flatblackkustom said:


> I have a round tail fish 156 and it is amazing! Just sayin'!


As in the mod-fish?
If so - glad to hear it

Looks sweet.
No chance to ride it until november though.


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## Alonzo (Dec 30, 2015)

flatblackkustom said:


> I have a round tail fish 156 and it is amazing! Just sayin'!


Like, a full camber Fish from 2008 or before? Those are cool looking boards, and apparently pretty stiff, which is nice.


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## Craig64 (Jul 16, 2015)

*Branch Manager 155*

Was looking for a tapered directional S rocker type set up for my 19 year old son (68kg) for Japan in order to keep up with me on my new Dump Truck 163. 

Looked heaps online and was able to find a new '17 Burton Branch Manager 155 for $Au500 (normally $Au799 RRP) that was on a last season sale they were trying to clear . Researched that it was a fairly good ride especially suited for Japan. My son is full on into carving through the treeline, so I thought well it's called the "Branch Manager"........, you couldn't go wrong here??? 

So to my eyes this board looks absolutely sic'. Love the outline, pointed tail/nose, narrow waistline. Well it came delivered still wrapped in the plastic and showed my son this great looking board I just grabbed for him. He instantly hated it...., thought it looked a stupid shape and said he wouldn't ride it, "No-one rides boards like that dad". It didn't help that my Dump Truck had a shovel nose either which he seemed to like. Frigging Kids. 

Anyway I had to trust my intuition and research I did this board. So chucked a few blingy stickers on it for him and kept searching on line for guys ripping on this board.:computer1: Found a few video's of guys smashing it through the powder in Japan telling him to come and look at this. Could see his mind saying it maybe goes okay. 

So we touchdown in Hokkaido Japan mid Jan' 2018. We took 2 boards over each, with him having the Branch Manager 155 and a Burton Vapor 155 for bluebird days. 

Anyway lucky for us we were graced by the Gods...., it dumped down 80% of the days on our stay. So the BM got a really solid workout. Took him only few hours transition from his discarded FV 154. Could see him gelling on it straight away. Was charging hard in the powder with no problems. Had him set back about -15mm from reference on Burton Genesis EST and SLX boots. So what I could see with his riding that this board floats pretty good in the powder. The nose keeps up and he has no problem slashing it about. 

I think he came to me on about the 2nd day and said, "Dad this board is unreal". 
I couldn't help myself and mentioned, "I think I told you that".

Got to sometimes trust us old diggers. :wink:


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## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

francium said:


> Yeah I don't know what all the fuss about the SK is about I prefer the FA, branch manager was fun be interesting to see how the panhandler compares.


Better late than never 

Skeleton Key = damp, very stable, a groomer ripper than can float a bit. Tons of edge hold, good for any turns. Quick edge to edge but also not squirrely. Maybe a bit too damp....

Flight Att = poppy, very versatile. Very twin-feeling. Good edgehold but not really great. Decent in pow. Quick edge to edge. This is more of a freestyle person's kind of powder board.

Branch Manager = More aggressive than a Fish (stiffer, more camber and more tail). Less edgehold than SK/FA. Much better on short, quick turns. Float is pretty good (less than a Fish, but feels a lot better in pow than FA). Damper than FA, but not quite as damp as the SK. A bit of an all arounder, but with a kind of special feel.... it's really directional, short edge, sharp sidecut, very responsive.... yeah a tree-ripping board.

Dump Truck = almost like the Landlord, but with a lot better edge hold and better on long and short turns. Damp, but also not as damp as the SK. This is a go fast and rip board, but also great for quick turns because it is really reactive and aggressive. I find it quicker edge to edge than Branch Manager, but the BM is maybe better for slashing around.

Panhandler = Super fun. Lots of pop. VERY floaty; floatier than a Fish of the same size. Better edgehold than the Fish, more tail than a Fish. The least aggressive of ^^ this ^^ whole bunch. Not damp at all (kind of like the FA). I've tried both 156 and 152....... 156 is for slightly heavier riders for crazy float; I rode it at 170lbs boot US11 and it was great, just a little slower edge to edge and more stable than Fish. I actually bought the 152. Super super fun. Quick edge to edge, and still floats like crazy. Good on all turns. But not really a big open face bomber kind of board. More of a tree slashy, jump and play board. So I feel I could ride either 156 or 152. 156 for more stable and infinite float... 152 for more playful and still more than good enough float.

Out of those...... I'd take the Dump Truck and Panhandler (even the 152!) to Japan for sure. 
Branch Manager is more of an all arounder.... FA is also more of an al arounder and SK is more of a groomer killer.


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## SGboarder (Jun 24, 2012)

F1EA said:


> Better late than never
> 
> Skeleton Key = damp, very stable, a groomer ripper than can float a bit. Tons of edge hold, good for any turns. Quick edge to edge but also not squirrely. Maybe a bit too damp....
> 
> ...


^^^ Very good description/comparison of those Burton decks. Agree with everything except no way that Panhandler has more float than the equivalent Fish - it is just that the float generated in a slightly different way: Panhandler through overall board with, Fish through the massive nose.


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## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

SGboarder said:


> ^^^ Very good description/comparison of those Burton decks. Agree with everything except no way that Panhandler has more float than the equivalent Fish - it is just that the float generated in a slightly different way: Panhandler through overall board with, Fish through the massive nose.


Ah yes, at equivalent size then they are very similar. But I meant same size... as in, the 156 Panhandler floats a lot more than the 156 Fish. 

But yeah that difference in how they float is very noticeable also in the way you ride/steer them in pow.... the PH you can steer both from the middle or off the tail, but the Fish steers mostly off the tail.


----------



## sush1 (Sep 26, 2017)

Powder freestyle with channel I'd be going for the Endeavor Maverick


----------



## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

sush1 said:


> Powder freestyle with channel I'd be going for the Endeavor Maverick


Yeah, ,I'd put it pretty much in the exact same category as the Flight Attendant. FA is a liiiittle bit stiffer and more "freeride". So definitely a powder board for a freestyle person; or a one board quiver for a person who likes more freestyle, but also wants to hit powder when it happens. My buddy has a Maverick split (it's called Patrol) and it is very similar to the FA.


----------



## Craig64 (Jul 16, 2015)

F1EA said:


> Better late than never
> 
> Skeleton Key = damp, very stable, a groomer ripper than can float a bit. Tons of edge hold, good for any turns. Quick edge to edge but also not squirrely. Maybe a bit too damp....
> 
> ...


How would you describe the differences/similarities between the LL v DT? 
What would you feel was the best Burton board for freeride/powder riding?
I've never ridden a BM,FA, SK, PH or Fish as being 210lbs I'm often oversize for a lot of rides.


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## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

Craig51 said:


> How would you describe the differences/similarities between the LL v DT?
> What would you feel was the best Burton board for freeride/powder riding?
> I've never ridden a BM,FA, SK, PH or Fish as being 210lbs I'm often oversize for a lot of rides.


LL and DT are similar, but different enough to not be like 'pretty much the same board'. I think DT has better edge hold and much better at short/long groomer turns and speed. LL is more of a sharp turner with survivable edge hold, but it's got a surfier feeling which is pretty neat too. I wanted to try the 158 but they only had the 154 available at the time... the DT rips. So does the LL, but in a slightly different way.

So best freeride/powder board depends on your specific preferences and terrain.... some people like straight bombing, others like a more playful ride or just cruising.... even for me, I think most boards have different situations where I find them best. Landlord and DT definitely up there for versatility and just a perfect mix of aggressiveness and agility... then Fish and PH more for super fun playful pow slashing. 

I'm pretty sure 161 Fish will float you. It's only 2cm shorter than your DT and you can definitely size down on a Fish. 156 PH will float you as well, but probably best to try it because it's a different ride (shorter, softer, wider) compared to most big mountain freeride boards......


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## Craig64 (Jul 16, 2015)

F1EA said:


> LL and DT are similar, but different enough to not be like 'pretty much the same board'. I think DT has better edge hold and much better at short/long groomer turns and speed. LL is more of a sharp turner with survivable edge hold, but it's got a surfier feeling which is pretty neat too. I wanted to try the 158 but they only had the 154 available at the time... the DT rips.
> 
> Best freeride/powder board depends on your specific preferences and terrain.... some people like straight bombing, others like a more playful ride or just cruising.... even for me, I think most boards have different situations where I find them best. Landlord and DT definitely up there for versatility and just a perfect mix of aggressiveness and agility... then Fish and PH more for super fun playful pow slashing.
> 
> Im pretty sure 161 Fish will float you. It's only 2cm shorter than your DT and you can definitely size down on a Fish. 156 PH will float you as well, but probably best to try it because it's a different ride compared to most true freeride boards......


I find that in Japan I'm bombing in and out off powder to piste as you make your way down to the lift/gondola bases so the LL/DT runs perfect in this area as you have a board that can carve fairly hard on the piste and also be playful and float really well in the powder. That's S rocker coming to the forefront. 

I could feel a little on the DT in the deeper powder that having less tail ie the Fish would be so much better. Might look at grabbing one before I fly out in 2019. 

I find at my old age:nerd: my style has really transpired a lot from years of surfing/skateboarding. I love high speed carving (years of riding in Australia) and doing whippy backside/toeside 180 carves off the banked side hits. So a surfy type board is what I tend to like. That's why I dialed my DT almost back to max and found it was so lose and ripped in both powder and piste. Helped having had years of riding on a Custom as well. 

I see the fish gets a huge amount of positive reviews.


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## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

Craig51 said:


> I find that in Japan I'm bombing in and out off powder to piste as you make your way down to the lift/gondola bases so the LL/DT runs perfect in this area as you have a board that can carve fairly hard on the piste and also be playful and float really well in the powder. That's S rocker coming to the forefront.
> 
> I could feel a little on the DT in the deeper powder that having less tail ie the Fish would be so much better. Might look at grabbing one before I fly out in 2019. :smile:
> 
> ...


Yeah for a board to mix up pow with groomers, both the LL and DT are A+. To me really the biggest difference is the DT has more edge hold and the LL feels more surfy.... how they feel is partly from the S-rocker but also it's the big nose, massive setback and taper... I don't setback the LL (and I rode DT at ref).

Fish feels super different; much more of a surfboard. Since you're used to these true freeride boards (like LL and DT) then you will definitely notice the difference.


----------



## jondoev (Oct 19, 2016)

F1EA said:


> Better late than never
> 
> Skeleton Key = damp, very stable, a groomer ripper than can float a bit. Tons of edge hold, good for any turns. Quick edge to edge but also not squirrely. Maybe a bit too damp....
> 
> ...



interesting.. are you saying that fa floats better in pow than sk? if yes why would that be.. since sk is more setback, wider even.. and basically same profile. 

btw i had fa for few yrs and i would agree with BA-s review, its okay everywhere but nowhere special.. solid in pow, not fun whatsoever in icy conditions, a bit too stiff for my liking.
i was between sk and dt for my next board, decided against dt cuz of its stiffnes and maybe too small radius for my vision of a freeride board.


----------



## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

jondoev said:


> interesting.. are you saying that fa floats better in pow than sk? if yes why would that be.. since sk is more setback, wider even.. and basically same profile.
> 
> btw i had fa for few yrs and i would agree with BA-s review, its okay everywhere but nowhere special.. solid in pow, not fun whatsoever in icy conditions, a bit too stiff for my liking.
> i was between sk and dt for my next board, decided against dt cuz of its stiffnes and maybe too small radius for my vision of a freeride board.


Nah, I'd say they float about the same. Just decent in pow. But SK is wider than FA but only depending which size you look at. FA comes in Wide models, which are wider than SK. 

Both FA and SK have only a little bit of taper. SK is more setback, but you can setback the FA some more if you want. In the end, FA is more lively and feels more twin than SK. But SK has better edge hold and more damp for going through chop a bit better. So like I said... FA more of a freestyle oriented board, and SK more of a groomer killer board. The DT is a proper freeride/powder board.

If you found the FA too stiff... then you will find both the DT and the SK too stiff too. If you found the FA solid in pow, then you will find the SK solid as well; and in that case, the DT would be INCREDIBLE in pow hahah

The sidecuts are almost the same.


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## SGboarder (Jun 24, 2012)

F1EA said:


> Nah, I'd say they float about the same. Just decent in pow. But SK is wider than FA but only depending which size you look at. FA comes in Wide models, which are wider than SK.
> 
> Both FA and SK have only a little bit of taper. SK is more setback, but you can setback the FA some more if you want. In the end, FA is more lively and feels more twin than SK. But SK has better edge hold and more damp for going through chop a bit better. So like I said... FA more of a freestyle oriented board, and SK more of a groomer killer board. The DT is a proper freeride/powder board.
> 
> ...


^^^ What he said. Except that the Skeleton Key is a fair bit softer IMO.


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## jondoev (Oct 19, 2016)

F1EA said:


> Nah, I'd say they float about the same. Just decent in pow. But SK is wider than FA but only depending which size you look at. FA comes in Wide models, which are wider than SK.
> 
> Both FA and SK have only a little bit of taper. SK is more setback, but you can setback the FA some more if you want. In the end, FA is more lively and feels more twin than SK. But SK has better edge hold and more damp for going through chop a bit better. So like I said... FA more of a freestyle oriented board, and SK more of a groomer killer board. The DT is a proper freeride/powder board.
> 
> ...


i havent had any superdeep days so maybe thats why i havent had any complaints about the float of FA (59). also from all the reviews i red noone mentioned any problems with float on SK  btw my SK (58) just arrived and id say the stiffnes of a new SK is about the same or its even a bit stiffer than FA after 2+ yrs, so id say SK is gonna be softer than FA after few days on snow. i do hope you are correct on a edge hold of SK, cuz i hate edge hold of an FA  as for DT.. i was between DT, SK, PYL and Endeavor MAVERICK.. MAV and PYL were sold out, and it was said DT is stiff plank :surprise: .. soon ill find out if i did a good job or what. i got it for a nice price tho.


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## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

jondoev said:


> i havent had any superdeep days so maybe thats why i havent had any complaints about the float of FA (59). also from all the reviews i red noone mentioned any problems with float on SK  btw my SK (58) just arrived and id say the stiffnes of a new SK is about the same or its even a bit stiffer than FA after 2+ yrs, so id say SK is gonna be softer than FA after few days on snow. i do hope you are correct on a edge hold of SK, cuz i hate edge hold of an FA  as for DT.. i was between DT, SK, PYL and Endeavor MAVERICK.. MAV and PYL were sold out, and it was said DT is stiff plank :surprise: .. soon ill find out if i did a good job or what. i got it for a nice price tho.


Yeah both FA and SK will float ok. But I can't say they float 'great' when there's boards with exceptional float (like Fish, Panhandler, Dump Truck, etc etc etc).

People's perception about the stiffness on the SK varies a lot...... I found it pretty stiff. Others find it softer. In any case, it is not too different from the FA (but it is damper and wider - unless you have a wide FA - so that kind of changes how stiff you feel it is).

Dump Truck is not a stiff plank. I know where you heard that, and he's COMPLETELY wrong. But you didn't get that board, so who cares 

Maverick and PYL would have been great options too. 

And yes SK has better edge hold than FA.


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## jondoev (Oct 19, 2016)

F1EA said:


> Yeah both FA and SK will float ok. But I can't say they float 'great' when there's boards with exceptional float (like Fish, Panhandler, Dump Truck, etc etc etc).
> 
> People's perception about the stiffness on the SK varies a lot...... I found it pretty stiff. Others find it softer. In any case, it is not too different from the FA (but it is damper and wider - unless you have a wide FA - so that kind of changes how stiff you feel it is).
> 
> ...


yeah, i didnt buy sk to be my fish or something similar.. if ill go to japan one day then ill think about those kind of boards, until then i think im good with this  
btw i get it for a fish.. but why would dt be sooo much better for deep days than sk? 5mm more taper?

too bad i couldnt demo DT (or SK for that matter) anywhere this winter.. i had to go with the reviews, and those were all over the place.. some said it was to replace gate keeper which was on a softer side of FA, some said it was stiff. and then some with great reputation  even said it was a dead plank.. so since i dislike stiffnes.. i stayed away. if only i could draw myself a board, one with medium flex (mav-like maybe?), with 10-15 taper, 3-5cm setback, directional camrock profile with a width of 255+ and cca 8m radius  oh well..


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## SGboarder (Jun 24, 2012)

jondoev said:


> i was between DT, SK, PYL and Endeavor MAVERICK.. MAV and PYL were sold out, and it was said DT is stiff plank :surprise: .. soon ill find out if i did a good job or what. i got it for a nice price tho.


SK is kid of the odd one out among those boards. All the others are off-piste friendly and quite burly freeride boards (Mav is a bit more freestyle-ish). In contrast SK is more of a soft-ish/mid-flex groomer carver that has a little bit of pow capability. 
Basically the SK will be happiest around the resort - shines on manicured groomers, goes well in pow next to the trail, and is smooth enough when things get a bit chopped up and bumpy in the afternoon. It is not a burly big mountain/off-piste/backcountry charging deck (unlike the DT, PYL etc) but much more playful and easy going.


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## Craig64 (Jul 16, 2015)

F1EA said:


> Yeah both FA and SK will float ok. But I can't say they float 'great' when there's boards with exceptional float (like Fish, Panhandler, Dump Truck, etc etc etc).
> 
> People's perception about the stiffness on the SK varies a lot...... I found it pretty stiff. Others find it softer. In any case, it is not too different from the FA (but it is damper and wider - unless you have a wide FA - so that kind of changes how stiff you feel it is).
> 
> ...


100% bang on. I rode 163 DT for weeks and it absolutely ripped everywhere on the mountain. Mixed it up on bluebird days on a CX and it's no where near the CX. In my mind the DT is just on a 7 (same as a Custom) and the CX an easy 9. This "Plank" label is all just complete BS. Have hours and hours of Gopro footage to back this up.


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## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

jondoev said:


> yeah, i didnt buy sk to be my fish or something similar.. if ill go to japan one day then ill think about those kind of boards, until then i think im good with this
> btw i get it for a fish.. but why would dt be sooo much better for deep days than sk? 5mm more taper?
> 
> too bad i couldnt demo DT (or SK for that matter) anywhere this winter.. i had to go with the reviews, and those were all over the place.. some said it was to replace gate keeper which was on a softer side of FA, some said it was stiff. and then some with great reputation  even said it was a dead plank.. so since i dislike stiffnes.. i stayed away. if only i could draw myself a board, one with medium flex (mav-like maybe?), with 10-15 taper, 3-5cm setback, directional camrock profile with a width of 255+ and cca 8m radius  oh well..


More taper (+wider nose), more setback, more surface area (shovel nose and tail vs the pointy blunt nose and cutout tail in the SK). I was kind of surprised when I rode the SK too..... lots of people were calling it soft and a powder board..... yet when I rode the 158 it did not have as much float as the 159 Landlord or 156 Panhandler (which I rode on the same day as SK) and it felt way stiffer than those. Also, not as agile as the LL 159. I'd say the LL is stiffer, but more responsive (same with the DT - it is stiffer than SK but the sidecut, carbon & taper make it very lively/responsive and just awesome to whip around). Just don't try to butter it unless you never miss leg day at the gym.

The SK did rail turns like crazy. The board rips on groomers and absorbs chop really well (waaaay better than PH and LL against chop). Floats ok... don't get it wrong, it will float; it's just not one of those super floaty boards.


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## jondoev (Oct 19, 2016)

Craig51 said:


> 100% bang on. I rode 163 DT for weeks and it absolutely ripped everywhere on the mountain. Mixed it up on bluebird days on a CX and it's no where near the CX. In my mind the DT is just on a 7 (same as a Custom) and the CX an easy 9. This "Plank" label is all just complete BS. Have hours and hours of Gopro footage to back this up.


ehh.. i had best time on my old custom few yrs back.. perfect flex for my taste. if i only knew 



SGboarder said:


> SK is kid of the odd one out among those boards. All the others are off-piste friendly and quite burly freeride boards (Mav is a bit more freestyle-ish). In contrast SK is more of a soft-ish/mid-flex groomer carver that has a little bit of pow capability.
> Basically the SK will be happiest around the resort - shines on manicured groomers, goes well in pow next to the trail, and is smooth enough when things get a bit chopped up and bumpy in the afternoon. It is not a burly big mountain/off-piste/backcountry charging deck (unlike the DT, PYL etc) but much more playful and easy going.


this gets me confused.. if even mav is more of a pow board than sk and mav almost isnt tapered.. less setback.. and similar flex if ur to trust specs. :whiteflag:



F1EA said:


> More taper (+wider nose), more setback, more surface area (shovel nose and tail vs the pointy blunt nose and cutout tail in the SK). I was kind of surprised when I rode the SK too..... lots of people were calling it soft and a powder board..... yet when I rode the 158 it did not have as much float as the 159 Landlord or 156 Panhandler (which I rode on the same day as SK) and it felt way stiffer than those. Also, not as agile as the LL 159. I'd say the LL is stiffer, but more responsive (same with the DT - it is stiffer than SK but the sidecut, carbon & taper make it very lively/responsive and just awesome to whip around). Just don't try to butter it unless you never miss leg day at the gym.
> 
> The SK did rail turns like crazy. The board rips on groomers and absorbs chop really well (waaaay better than PH and LL against chop). Floats ok... don't get it wrong, it will float; it's just not one of those super floaty boards.


its not that much more taper tho.. 10 vs 15mm? also barely any setback difference (much bigger difference between fa-sk than sk-dt.. also that chanel, as u mentioned gives u options)
btw what yr sk did u rode? 

now i cant wait to ride it.. even on this spring/slushy snow. just to see how it turns  my head is spinning from all those different views :dizzy:


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## SGboarder (Jun 24, 2012)

jondoev said:


> this gets me confused.. if even mav is more of a pow board than sk and mav almost isnt tapered.. less setback.. and similar flex if ur to trust specs. :whiteflag:


Taper has various effects but taper alone does not make pow board/float. In case of SK taper makes it a great groomer carver. Not a pow board by any stretch of the imagination.
People see something that even remotely looks like swallowtail and jump to the conclusion that it is for pow float when in many cases it is to extend the edge for carving performance and/or stability. Other examples: Custom Kilroy.


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## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

jondoev said:


> its not that much more taper tho.. 10 vs 15mm? also barely any setback difference (much bigger difference between fa-sk than sk-dt.. also that chanel, as u mentioned gives u options)
> btw what yr sk did u rode?
> 
> now i cant wait to ride it.. even on this spring/slushy snow. just to see how it turns  my head is spinning from all those different views :dizzy:


You already got it... the published numbers you can see are an element, but there's other little details that have to do with the shape, etc. I wouldn't worry too much. Just go ride it and see what's up. You may find it super floaty... or soft... of a great park board, etc etc. It's all good. 

I tried the 2017-2018 SK.

I also have a 159 Cheetah which is also a small number difference from FA, but floats a lot less than most of these boards. You dont notice it all the time, it actually floats enough when it's like 10-15cm fresh or if you're going fast.... but if 60cm+ and you're not on a steep slope you can totally notice boards like Landlord, DT, Fish, PH totally outfloat it. 

Just looked it up and even Burton has a lower weight for the same length 158 SK (145-185 lbs) vs 158 Dump Truck (150-200 lbs) and also their "terrain" rating; "groomers" for SK and all out "backcountry" for DT. So they are already saying something........


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