# Help on toeside turns?



## aloutris (Dec 20, 2011)

I'm a 13 year old girl and it's today I just finished my second day of snowboarding  Now heelside turns are just natural to me (being wimpy, I spent a while sideslipping down the blue squares like the boss I am )I can somewhat link turns but my toeside is very weak compared to my heelside. Also, I freak out on the blue square so I never link turns on it! Right now all that I do is practicing technique on the bunny hill, but don't say go to the green hill because it's hard to get to from the ski lift, and it's about the same skill level as the blue square at my ski resort. (I'm decent at this even though it's only my second time because I've skied for the past 3 years on the black diamonds <3) Basically it's help with toeside AND linking turns confidence. Thanks!!


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## ShredTaos (Sep 21, 2011)

1) Bend your knees more. I'm sure you think you are bending them enough, but bend them more.

2) Put your shoulders into it, make sure you shoulders are paralell with the board when it goes to turn, most people actually fight toe turns with their upper body.

3) Crank your forward knee, almost act like you are trying to move your front foot inward( it wont actually move inward due to bindings).

4) think of your weight distribution at all times, when heelside turning your weight should be slightly over the heel edge, toeside make sure you put your weight slightly over the toe edge.


These are my basic tips for any new rider. Mostly just have fun


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## aloutris (Dec 20, 2011)

Thanks! This will help a ton. I'm going to the slopes with my skier friends, so I want to know something


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## yojik (Sep 14, 2011)

Not a huge fan of the shoulder advice bu thumbs up on the bent knees. Quiet upper body is the way to go. 

Try activating your hips more. When initiating the toeside turn, thrust your hips out (in a controlled manner) and you'll have a stacked platform that is stable and powerful.

By using the hips in conjunction with the toes of your front foot, you'll strengthen the turn sooner and spend less time fighting to hold the edge.


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## aloutris (Dec 20, 2011)

Great advice! Snowolf, are you the one with the videos on youtube that begin withnthe howling wolf? They really helped.


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## charmiander (Oct 25, 2011)

I have the same problem as aloutris, haha... 



ShredTaos said:


> 3) Crank your forward knee, almost act like you are trying to move your front foot inward( it wont actually move inward due to bindings).


My boyfriend and some other people keep on telling me to change my direction with my back foot - would that work as well? I think the concept that they've been trying to pound into me is that the back foot is "thrown around to change directions," but I find that my front foot does a whole lot better at that than my back foot... Which way is correct??


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## charmiander (Oct 25, 2011)

Snowolf said:


> When you are riding on your toeside edge, rest your shins on the tongues of your boots. Make sure you are not bending at the waist and leaning over to ride toeside. Many people do this and it totally throws your balance off. push the shins into those tongues and move your hips forward and arch your back a little bit. This will weight your toes and lift your heels.


When I rest my shins on the tongues of my boots and I bend my knees, my heels lift inside my boots no matter how hard I crank down on my boa - is this what they call "heel lift," and how can I fix this problem? Of course, as I had discovered, my heels don't lift as much with more hip movement and back arches, but the problem is still there.



Snowolf said:


> Remember to "unturn" once a new rider figures out how to turn, they stay in the turn too long and turn uphill then spin a flat 360 to a fall. As the nose of the board points across the fall line coming out of a turn, relax the front foot so the board stops turning and instead traverses.


I have that problem too although it only involves full J turns (without the 360 spin + fall), whether it's toe or heel-side turn. =/ I can't really stop my turns from turning into J's - would you say that as you start a turn, you immediately relax the front foot...??


And ditto aloutris, your videos on YouTube have helped immensely, thanks so much! :thumbsup:


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## lonerider (Apr 10, 2009)

charmiander said:


> When I rest my shins on the tongues of my boots and I bend my knees, my heels lift inside my boots no matter how hard I crank down on my boa - is this what they call "heel lift," and how can I fix this problem?


Yes that is heel-lift and the real solution is buying new boots that fit you feet better. I have personally found Nitro boot work well... but you need to try it first. My wife tried Burton Sapphire boots and those solved her heel lift problems.

If you don't have the cash for new boots... go to a snowboard/ski shop that does bootfitting (helm of sun valley in san mateo does it... not sure about places in SF) and have them add a C-pad or butterfly wrap around the ankle area of your liner. That will help fill in the space above your heel and below your ankle to help keep the heel from lifting. Should cost like $10... you van go to tognar.com and buy the stuff yourself, but it takes a little bit of knowledge to put them on the liner in the correction spot (i could walk you through it though... There might be a YouTube video on It but I cant search for it right now)


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## Bayoh (Dec 17, 2010)

charmiander said:


> When I rest my shins on the tongues of my boots and I bend my knees, my heels lift inside my boots no matter how hard I crank down on my boa - is this what they call "heel lift," and how can I fix this problem? Of course, as I had discovered, my heels don't lift as much with more hip movement and back arches, but the problem is still there.
> 
> 
> I have that problem too although it only involves full J turns (without the 360 spin + fall), whether it's toe or heel-side turn. =/ I can't really stop my turns from turning into J's - would you say that as you start a turn, you immediately relax the front foot...??
> ...


Ya those inserts for the liners at the fitting shops work wonders for heel lift. The glue from them tends to come loose after a lot of use though from all the sweat of your feet which is the downside.

As for your turns, yes, if you're wanting to make smooth snakelike carving motions instead of a circular turn you don't need much front foot pressure to get the carve intiated. As long as you keep toe/heel pressure on your front foot your board will continue to go in that direction until you let off.


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## ShredTaos (Sep 21, 2011)

charmiander said:


> I have the same problem as aloutris, haha...
> 
> 
> 
> My boyfriend and some other people keep on telling me to change my direction with my back foot - would that work as well? I think the concept that they've been trying to pound into me is that the back foot is "thrown around to change directions," but I find that my front foot does a whole lot better at that than my back foot... Which way is correct??


That is completely wrong. Initiate and lead the turn with your front foot, back will follow. What your boyfriend is having you do is bad form, some people call this "kick turning", this will only lead you to "skidded turns", tons of caught edges and face slams, and not proper carves.


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## charmiander (Oct 25, 2011)

Snowolf said:


> The ghetto option and one I am using currently is to go to the grocery store and buy a pack of those kitchen sponges. You know the ones; they are about 3X5 and about an inch thick. All I do is when I get into my boots at the beginning of the day is jam one down between the liner and the shell to wrap around my heel. No heel lift at all and the things give enough to not cause too many problems with pressure points. It`s the buck 99 solution....:thumbsup:


Hahaha nice solution! Although that kinda forces you to lean really forward then when you're walking around without the board, right? Do you have a link where I can see how/where exactly to put it??



ShredTaos said:


> That is completely wrong. Initiate and lead the turn with your front foot, back will follow. What your boyfriend is having you do is bad form, some people call this "kick turning", this will only lead you to "skidded turns", tons of caught edges and face slams, and not proper carves.


How exactly would "skidded turns" feel and look like??? Is this also another reason why I seem to be having trouble getting out of my turns??



lonerider said:


> If you don't have the cash for new boots... go to a snowboard/ski shop that does bootfitting (helm of sun valley in san mateo does it... not sure about places in SF) and have them add a C-pad or butterfly wrap around the ankle area of your liner. That will help fill in the space above your heel and below your ankle to help keep the heel from lifting. Should cost like $10... you van go to tognar.com and buy the stuff yourself, but it takes a little bit of knowledge to put them on the liner in the correction spot (i could walk you through it though... There might be a YouTube video on It but I cant search for it right now)


I'm looking at the reviews for Helm of Sun Valley right now, and it seems to be a hit-and-miss in terms of service - if you've been, can you perhaps recommend me the person who had fixed up your (or another friend's) boots? Alternatively, if you have time to find the DIY YouTube video or walk me through it, that would be great too, thanks!!


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## MistahTaki (Apr 24, 2010)

Skidded turns are when you are not riding along your edge and are drifting.


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## lonerider (Apr 10, 2009)

charmiander said:


> Hahaha nice solution! Although that kinda forces you to lean really forward then when you're walking around without the board, right? Do you have a link where I can see how/where exactly to put it??
> 
> I'm looking at the reviews for Helm of Sun Valley right now, and it seems to be a hit-and-miss in terms of service - if you've been, can you perhaps recommend me the person who had fixed up your (or another friend's) boots? Alternatively, if you have time to find the DIY YouTube video or walk me through it, that would be great too, thanks!!


Your snowboard boots are meant for snowboarding... not for walking. I roll my eyes whenever someone loves the fact that their boot feel like "slippers." You don't play basketball or hike up mountains in slippers... what makes you think you should be snowboarding in slippersl

Yea... the guys at Helm of Sun Valley are a bit... crusty... so maybe you are better off doing yourself. This particular bootfitting adjustment is not very hard to do. First buy some foam pads, I would recommend a two pairs of C-pads (one order for each boot) or if you want to be more aggressive you can get the ankle wrap (more material) for like $12 total. Shipping is going to be around $6... so you might want to get a second set just in case..., you need it. My wife had THREE sets of C-pads around her ankles until we found a better fitting boot for her.

The key thing to "installing them" is to have them correctly positioned (i.e. around your ankle bones... officially the lateral and medial malleolus) - the link I have above has diagrams showing what the end result should look like (you might need to click on the thumbnail images). So pull out your liner and lace it up around your feet. Feel through the liner to find your ankle bones on each side and use a marker to marker them with an (X). Then take off the liner and place the C-pad around that X on each side. If your BF is around, he can do it while you are wearing the liners, saving you a step. Again the idea is to fill in the space that is just below you ankle bones and above your heel.

Hope that helps.


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## charmiander (Oct 25, 2011)

Thanks SnoWolf for the tips and analogies! I shall try to control my turns more so I'm not skidding as much, although it seems like it's become a bad habit 'cause all of my turns are pretty much skids (+ face/butt plants )... >.<!!



lonerider said:


> Your snowboard boots are meant for snowboarding... not for walking. I roll my eyes whenever someone loves the fact that their boot feel like "slippers." You don't play basketball or hike up mountains in slippers... what makes you think you should be snowboarding in slippersl
> 
> Yea... the guys at Helm of Sun Valley are a bit... crusty... so maybe you are better off doing yourself. This particular bootfitting adjustment is not very hard to do. First buy some foam pads, I would recommend a two pairs of C-pads (one order for each boot) or if you want to be more aggressive you can get the ankle wrap (more material) for like $12 total. Shipping is going to be around $6... so you might want to get a second set just in case..., you need it. My wife had THREE sets of C-pads around her ankles until we found a better fitting boot for her.
> 
> ...


Yeah that definitely helps, thanks so much! And just to clarify, the pads are placed on both sides of the liner, yes?
And I'm too lazy to take off my boots completely when I'm taking an hour lunch break, although they're not exactly the most comfortable things to be walking around in.. I always seem to be fighting my own boots to take them off. =/


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## wrathfuldeity (Oct 5, 2007)

my boots almost feel like slippers...anyway cover the butterflies/j/c bars with some kind of tape. I've used duct, athletic and others but the best has been nylon "hurricane" tape....it sticks well and it slides easily to get the liners in/out for drying.

The other thing about toeside turns...complete them by "looking back up the hill"...lots of newbs counter-rotate or keep looking down the hill to see where they are going to go...BUT by looking back up the hill it brings your shoulders in line with the board so that you can complete the toeside turn....TRY IT.


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## Bones (Feb 24, 2008)

charmiander said:


> When I rest my shins on the tongues of my boots and I bend my knees, my heels lift inside my boots no matter how hard I crank down on my boa


As others have mentioned, yes...that's heel lift. And cranking down your laces might stop it, but other parts of your feet will eventually pay the price.

From my understanding, there's 3 basic types (or a combination)

1) Your heel bones (the big knobs on the inside and outside) are narrow or ill-defined (ie not that knobby) and don't really sit in the "cup" on each inside side of the liner. A C pad on the outside of the liner will make the "cup" cup around the knobs better.

2) Your heel base directly below the knobs is a little narrower than the knobs. I have this problem in work boots, it feels like you're attached by the ankle, but your heel is free below. Kinda like wearing gaiters. A heel wrap will help fill up the space.

3) Your liner doesn't pinch in well around your achillies tendon, particularly the little dimple between the tendon and the ankle bone. It's fine when your tendon isn't stretched (like when you point your toes), but lean forward and stretch the tendon and it gets longer and narrower. And your heel slides up. Personally, I think this is the more common type of heel lift. An L pad or a pair of L pads will pinch that a little snugger. They make your boots a little harder to get into so unlace/loosen your boots well. Once your foot is in, you shouldn't notice them at all.

I have this problem with my right foot in every pair of over-the-ankle boots I've ever had.

That Togar link from a few posts back has diagrams.


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## aloutris (Dec 20, 2011)

Thanks for all of the info!! I went snowboarding again today, and all of this has helped me so much! As it turns out, I was flexing too much rather than letting my knees do some of the work. As it turns out I really wasn't bending my knees enough  Now toeside turns have been amazing and almost as good as my heelside. You have all been so helpful!!!


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## charmiander (Oct 25, 2011)

Bones said:


> 1) Your heel bones (the big knobs on the inside and outside) are narrow or ill-defined (ie not that knobby) and don't really sit in the "cup" on each inside side of the liner. A C pad on the outside of the liner will make the "cup" cup around the knobs better...........
> 
> 3) Your liner doesn't pinch in well around your achillies tendon, particularly the little dimple between the tendon and the ankle bone. It's fine when your tendon isn't stretched (like when you point your toes), but lean forward and stretch the tendon and it gets longer and narrower. And your heel slides up. Personally, I think this is the more common type of heel lift. An L pad or a pair of L pads will pinch that a little snugger. They make your boots a little harder to get into so unlace/loosen your boots well. Once your foot is in, you shouldn't notice them at all.


So... I guess it's down to either a C or L pad then! I don't really know how "knobby" my heel bones are though, and I can't seem to tell whether or not they can sit in the "cup" inside the liner.  In any case, I'm not too sure what exactly to look for, so perhaps you can give a better judgment as to which type of pad is better.. =P

- I don't have that little dimple when I point my toes.
- When I lean forward and the foot is flexed to the max, the knobs aren't that well-defined. 
- It's a constant fight trying to take off my boots.. It's not as tough getting my feet in through. xD But mark my words, one day my boyfriend will pop my ankle or something from trying to get my boots off for me... 




aloutris said:


> Thanks for all of the info!! I went snowboarding again today, and all of this has helped me so much! As it turns out, I was flexing too much rather than letting my knees do some of the work. As it turns out I really wasn't bending my knees enough  Now toeside turns have been amazing and almost as good as my heelside. You have all been so helpful!!!


Woot, glad you improved on your toeside turns! Now I just gotta wait till Thursday and Friday to try out everybody's recommendations.


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## jdang307 (Feb 6, 2011)

My heels are so narrow I'm going to try the sponge and/or the tognar pads.

Has anyone ever used both an ankle wrap and a c/l pad? I might buy an ankle wrap and a C pad but not sure which to use first, and whether they can stack.


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## lonerider (Apr 10, 2009)

jdang307 said:


> My heels are so narrow I'm going to try the sponge and/or the tognar pads.
> 
> Has anyone ever used both an ankle wrap and a c/l pad? I might buy an ankle wrap and a C pad but not sure which to use first, and whether they can stack.


You can stack... we stacked THREE c-pads in my wife's boots... a stop-gap measure until we got her boots that fit better out of the box.


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## lonerider (Apr 10, 2009)

charmiander said:


> So... I guess it's down to either a C or L pad then! I don't really know how "knobby" my heel bones are though, and I can't seem to tell whether or not they can sit in the "cup" inside the liner.  In any case, I'm not too sure what exactly to look for, so perhaps you can give a better judgment as to which type of pad is better.. =P
> 
> - I don't have that little dimple when I point my toes.
> - When I lean forward and the foot is flexed to the max, the knobs aren't that well-defined.
> - It's a constant fight trying to take off my boots.. It's not as tough getting my feet in through. xD But mark my words, one day my boyfriend will pop my ankle or something from trying to get my boots off for me...


See... this is why you go to a "good" bootfitter, they figure all of this out for you :thumbsup:. The guys at Elite Feet in Squaw Creek (it's the hotel very very close to Squaw Valley, but not actually in the village) are great (ask for Jeremy or Christian).

For your boots... try completely loosening (i.e. several inches of slack) the laces two rungs pass your ankle (if you are not sure, just loosen ALL of the laces). Then pull the boot tongue up and forward (away from your ankle), and then loosen/pull liner tongue up and out before even beginning to attempt to pull out your foot.


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## ChristinaAK36 (Oct 26, 2011)

All advice is good.. snowolf's youtube videos are great... (now if someone would tell me to stop being a baby when i try new things in the terrain park, they'd come in handy more). 

My advice... JUST DO IT. Don't think too hard about it, and go into it hard. It too me a LONG time to get comfortable toeside but just know its something you have to do.. its not an option if you want to get the best out of your riding. 

Good luck -- at your age, when you're my age, you'll be kickin it pro.


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## cocolulu (Jan 21, 2011)

Kinda late, but here are some videos that might help. I'd hate to post somebody's video from this forum as an ex. of what not to do, but it was sent out for critique:

Flumserberg Day 8 - YouTube!

That's what swinging the tail looks like. The problem with that is that you suddenly plop your board into big skids, where your board is plowing sideways across the snow more than cutting forward through it. For me at least, this causes BIG problems when you go into choppier or steeper runs. On choppier terrain, if you skid too much, your board will get knocked around. The front of your board might hit a bump, and it'll turn your board in ways you didn't want. You could also hit a bump and literally get bounced up, or catch an edge and flip over. Skidding at high speed over choppy snow can be an awful feeling (it's very hard to maintain control).

When you carve turns, you make nice graceful S patterns, and the edge of your board cuts a more narrow path through the snow. Your board kind of flexes over bumps, or cuts through them, instead of getting knocked sideways.

I think some people in this thread can post what better carved turn videos! There's so many experienced instructors here haha.


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## jdang307 (Feb 6, 2011)

lonerider said:


> You can stack... we stacked THREE c-pads in my wife's boots... a stop-gap measure until we got her boots that fit better out of the box.


Holy moly.

I have terribly skinny ankles/heel and then a fricking wide foot (hey I'm asian) right in the middle of the foot. I sized down and still have terrible heel lift.

Time to fill up the heel area. Love Snowolf's Macguyver suggestion of a sponge


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## SWAGGER (Jan 11, 2009)

aloutris said:


> Thanks for all of the info!! I went snowboarding again today, and all of this has helped me so much! As it turns out, I was flexing too much rather than letting my knees do some of the work. As it turns out I really wasn't bending my knees enough  Now toeside turns have been amazing and almost as good as my heelside. You have all been so helpful!!!


Hey Im pretty sure I know exactly what your talking about, as in it's hard to get to the greens at alpine. Where you get off the lift, go down about 30 feet then it breaks off into 3-4 different runs? I had that problem too starting there. You just have to get down there. If you have to side slip then do it. All those runs over there are awesome for beginners. I progressed alot there. That blue was pretty rough. Lol. If you can navigate the beggining there, heel and toe side, your doing good. Pretty soon you'll know those runs like the back of your head and you can find the fun crossovers and stuff. Good luck.


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