# Heritage, Premier, Billy Goat, or Optimistic....



## SHREDDER97 (Aug 1, 2010)

I would go for the ns heritage as you mentioned and look at the arbor a-frame.


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## Nivek (Jan 24, 2008)

Of those four I would go for the Heritage. Those Cartels should be good. I wanna say the '07 was the last year I liked Cartels... If you want something else look at Flow NXT-ATSE's, Flux SF45's, Raiden Phantoms, or Ride Capo's. 

If you want more suggestions look at the Signal Omni, Arbor Coda or Element RX, Flow Drifter, or a Nitro Team Gullwing.


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## garavac (Dec 1, 2008)

i would go for premier, or woud check arbors line...


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## Lstarrasl (Mar 26, 2010)

my question for you...Why would anyone ride moguls?


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## LuckyRVA (Jan 18, 2011)

Having just picked up a '10 Premier myself, my vote is for the Premier


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## Hawkfan79 (Aug 11, 2011)

Nivek said:


> Of those four I would go for the Heritage. Those Cartels should be good. I wanna say the '07 was the last year I liked Cartels... If you want something else look at Flow NXT-ATSE's, Flux SF45's, Raiden Phantoms, or Ride Capo's.
> 
> If you want more suggestions look at the Signal Omni, Arbor Coda or Element RX, Flow Drifter, or a Nitro Team Gullwing.


Why the Heritage? I'm leaning that way too but curious why you would go with it. I've got the Customs not the Cartels, according to Burton the Customs are a couple notches down on the flexability/response scale from the Cartels but I'm not sure how much difference that is really going to make. 

Another question came to me: coming from a 163 camber board should I size up, down, or stay the same when going to a hybrid camber board? I feel comfortable with the length of my Canyon and based on my size I think the 160-165 range is where I should be. Thanks for the help.


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## Lstarrasl (Mar 26, 2010)

You are a Seahawks fan, in the Pacific North West and you aren't going to rep your state with a Lib or Gnu? Come on dude.


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## Hawkfan79 (Aug 11, 2011)

Lstarrasl said:


> You are a Seahawks fan, in the Pacific North West and you aren't going to rep your state with a Lib or Gnu? Come on dude.


I know, I know, I really want to rep Lib or Gnu, I live less than an hour from the factory in Sequim, but above all else I want the board that is right for me and if that is a NS, Signal, or a Yes then so be it.


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## Milo303 (Apr 6, 2009)

Hawkfan79 said:


> I know, I know, I really want to rep Lib or Gnu, I live less than an hour from the factory in Sequim, but above all else I want the board that is right for me and if that is a NS, Signal, or a Yes than so be it.


Smart kat

Heritage all the way


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## Lstarrasl (Mar 26, 2010)

Hawkfan79 said:


> I know, I know, I really want to rep Lib or Gnu, I live less than an hour from the factory in Sequim, but above all else I want the board that is right for me and if that is a NS, Signal, or a Yes than so be it.


Let me get this straight, you think out of all of Mervins line, one can't fit your riding style? Wow, you have bought into the hype from the forum. I guarantee you most of the lib or Gnu line would fit you fine. I see photos all the time from Stevens and Baker of guys killing it on a variety of their lineup, who are most likely way better than you.


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## Nolefan2011 (Mar 12, 2011)

Out of those boards, you probably want the Yes to be honest. Probably the most stable out of all the boards you listed, because of the CamRock tech, so you can really bomb the board. Yet better pop than the NS and Gnu. And edge to edge quickness is very good. This board and the Heritage will have the most torsional flex.

If you really want to bomb though, I'd say Yes will be at the top of the list due to the stability from their tech on this board.

Again, just my opinion, and I'd definitely demo.


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## jdang307 (Feb 6, 2011)

Lstarrasl said:


> Let me get this straight, you think out of all of Mervins line,* one can't fit your riding style*? Wow, you have bought into the hype from the forum. I guarantee you most of the lib or Gnu line would fit you fine. I see photos all the time from Stevens and Baker of guys killing it on a variety of their lineup, *who are most likely way better than you.*


Where did all of that come from? :dunno: He just said he wants the best board for him, whatever the brand, so be it.

Last time I checked, the Billy Goat, one his listed boards, is a Mervin board. Am I wrong? I get wanting to promote the brand you like, but getting hostile about it? Dude he's just trying to find the best board, period.


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## Hawkfan79 (Aug 11, 2011)

Lstarrasl said:


> Let me get this straight, you think out of all of Mervins line, one can't fit your riding style? Wow, you have bought into the hype from the forum. I guarantee you most of the lib or Gnu line would fit you fine. I see photos all the time from Stevens and Baker of guys killing it on a variety of their lineup, who are most likely way better than you.


Whoa, I'm not looking to get in a pissing contest and who knows maybe I'll get the Billy Goat, it was the one my local shop recommended. I'm not saying Mervin doesn't make quality boards because they do just like Never Summer, Signal, Arbor, and all the other quality American manufacturers. I'm simply looking for some help, I thought that was one of the purposes of this forum. I'm a firm believer in supporting my local economy but if a board built in CO or CA would fit my style better or just plain looks better to me then I have no problem not buying a lib or gnu.


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## Lstarrasl (Mar 26, 2010)

jdang307 said:


> Where did all of that come from? :dunno: He just said he wants the best board for him, whatever the brand, so be it.
> 
> Last time I checked, the Billy Goat, one his listed boards, is a Mervin board. Am I wrong? I get wanting to promote the brand you like, but getting hostile about it? Dude he's just trying to find the best board, period.


Trying to find the best board period...:laugh: Like there is one. Any of the boards listed would give you a winter bone, cuz you are riding a new board.

I'm just saying to rep your town, you are over thinking it. Most of the Gnu and Libs will fit you fine and you are supporting a local company that supports the Northwest.

Would you buy an Airbus? Fuck no, you'd buy a Boeing.


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## Lstarrasl (Mar 26, 2010)

Hawkfan79 said:


> Whoa, I'm not looking to get in a pissing contest and who knows maybe I'll get the Billy Goat, it was the one my local shop recommended. I'm not saying Mervin doesn't make quality boards because they do just like Never Summer, Signal, Arbor, and all the other quality American manufacturers. I'm simply looking for some help, I thought that was one of the purposes of this forum. I'm a firm believer in supporting my local economy but if a board built in CO or CA would fit my style better or just plain looks better to me then I have no problem not buying a lib or gnu.



The purpose of this forum is for everyone to ride a Never Summer, what are you new?


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## jpb3 (Nov 29, 2009)

I agree this place is def pro Never Summer, but I am on the bandwagon so skip if you don't want to read yet another positive review . Having said that, I have an 06 and 2010 with the RC tech which I have just put one full season on. One thing I would throw out there is that I wouldn't trade my Heritage for any other board but they do have a distinctly sharp side cut which makes turning a bit more aggressive than a lot of other free ride boards, like say the Premier. If you are use to a long transition edge to edge and having to crank your turns on a wide board then if you get on a Heritage your going to be carving so quick and tight your turns will take you uphill until you learn how tight a turn it can lay. The R/C tech is nice, but is much different than a cambered board, much better but still much different. I called NS about the size issue b/c you can read internet until your eyes bleed about all the size opinions, they said to stay with the same size you would ride with a cambered board so I did at 165. I'm 6'2" 215 size 10 boot. Lastly I mainly ride CO/UT and the hills of the Mid-Atlantic, but have been to Mt Hood Meadows and experienced the "Cascade concrete" to a degree. If I were freeriding in that area predominately I would want a really damp stable board and for that the Premier F1 would probably be my choice.


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## Hawkfan79 (Aug 11, 2011)

Lstarrasl said:


> Trying to find the best board period...:laugh: Like there is one. Any of the boards listed would give you a winter bone, cuz you are riding a new board.
> 
> I'm just saying to rep your town, you are over thinking it. Most of the Gnu and Libs will fit you fine and you are supporting a local company that supports the Northwest.
> 
> Would you buy an Airbus? Fuck no, you'd buy a Boeing.


Okay so putting the fact that it is made locally aside what makes the Billy Goat or another comparable Lib/Gnu board, choice is yours, better than the Heritage or Premier. I honestly have no bias either way, the only reason I've been leaning towards the Heritage is because of the number of great reviews it has gotten. For whatever reason I can't find many reviews good, bad, or otherwise of the Billy Goat. 



jpb3 said:


> I agree this place is def pro Never Summer, but I am on the bandwagon so skip if you don't want to read yet another positive review . Having said that, I have an 06 and 2010 with the RC tech which I have just put one full season on. One thing I would throw out there is that I wouldn't trade my Heritage for any other board but they do have a distinctly sharp side cut which makes turning a bit more aggressive than a lot of other free ride boards, like say the Premier. If you are use to a long transition edge to edge and having to crank your turns on a wide board then if you get on a Heritage your going to be carving so quick and tight your turns will take you uphill until you learn how tight a turn it can lay. The R/C tech is nice, but is much different than a cambered board, much better but still much different. I called NS about the size issue b/c you can read internet until your eyes bleed about all the size opinions, they said to stay with the same size you would ride with a cambered board so I did at 165. I'm 6'2" 215 size 10 boot. Lastly I mainly ride CO/UT and the hills of the Mid-Atlantic, but have been to Mt Hood Meadows and experienced the "Cascade concrete" to a degree. If I were freeriding in that area predominately I would want a really damp stable board and for that the Premier F1 would probably be my choice.


Actually it's good to hear that the Heritage is faster edge to edge because one of the the things that I really don't like about my Canyon is that it seems so slow. As far as dampness goes, everything I've read has said that the Heritage is pretty damp, somewhere between the SL and the Premier so I figured it would handle the concrete pretty well.


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## Lstarrasl (Mar 26, 2010)

Hawkfan79 said:


> Okay so putting the fact that it is made locally aside what makes the Billy Goat or another comparable Lib/Gnu board, choice is yours, better than the Heritage or Premier. I honestly have no bias either way, the only reason I've been leaning towards the Heritage is because of the number of great reviews it has gotten. For whatever reason I can't find many reviews good, bad, or otherwise of the Billy Goat.
> 
> 
> You are taking reviews from guys you don't know if they can get down the mountain without falling.
> ...


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## Chosen_OnE (Apr 3, 2011)

Lstarrasl said:


> Hawkfan79 said:
> 
> 
> > Okay so putting the fact that it is made locally aside what makes the Billy Goat or another comparable Lib/Gnu board, choice is yours, better than the Heritage or Premier. I honestly have no bias either way, the only reason I've been leaning towards the Heritage is because of the number of great reviews it has gotten. For whatever reason I can't find many reviews good, bad, or otherwise of the Billy Goat.
> ...


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## Hawkfan79 (Aug 11, 2011)

Looking at some of the specs of the Billy Goat 162 and the Heritage 162: 

Contact Length: Billy Goat 122 Heritage 126
Waist Width: Billy Goat 25.3 Heritage 25.7

What does this mean, if anything, as far as how one will ride compared to the other? Seems that the Billy Goat with a shorter contact length and narrower waist would be faster edge to edge, but I could be wrong.


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## Nolefan2011 (Mar 12, 2011)

Dude, think about what you are saying. Are you going to drive a Ford Taurus because you live in Detroit? Are you going to eat at Mcdonalds because you live in Chicago?

This isn't some local bakery vs cost co. This is a snowboard, one that's in large production. Ride what you want.


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## Wiredsport (Sep 16, 2009)

Hawkfan79 said:


> Looking at some of the specs of the Billy Goat 162 and the Heritage 162:
> 
> Contact Length: Billy Goat 122 Heritage 126
> Waist Width: Billy Goat 25.3 Heritage 25.7
> ...


Hi Hawkfan,

For the specs that you have listed above Gnu provides contact length and NeverSummer provides "edge". A contact length measurement is a straight line, while effective edge is measured along the curve of the sidecut. That is to say that on any given board the effective edge will be notably longer than the running surface. Because NS does not provide a contact length those numbers cannot be used for a direct comparison.

I am going to post a long bunch of info below on width and running surface. I will entirely understand if you ignore it 

*Running Length RIP*

Board sizing has always been a little tricky, but in the past, there have been a small group of readily available stats that have been very useful for comparison and selection by knowledgeable riders. One of those has been Running Length (AKA Contact Length).

As we have written many times, overall board length is a commonly considered, but almost useless measurement. Why? Because the shape and dimensions of a board's raised tip and tail can vary greatly and have next to no impact on the way the board will ride. These variations may change the overall board length by as much as 7 cm without having any significant effect on performance. I can feel some readers out there bristling to say, "but length effects spin weight and rotation". Sure, but in reality the difference in weight is negligible, and the difference you feel in spins is minor at best...and, most importantly for this article, tip to tip length will always be provided, so if it is important to you, it will always be available.

Most informed boarders have paid little to no attention to overall (tip to tip) length but have focused on Running Length as a major indicator of a board's true "size". This measurement was highly valued as it gauged the amount of board that would be in firm contact with the snow while riding. The running length was typically taken as a straight line measurement between the two contact points, which on traditional cambered boards pretty well corresponded with the board's wide points at both ends of it's effective edge. So, this really became a wide point to wide point measurement. Some manufacturers would measure this with the camber compressed (weighted) while others would take a non compressed measurement. In either case, the numbers were pretty close. Good retailers kept their own consistent internal measurements.

Enter Rocker. Rocker is an overused term that inaccurately groups about twenty different variations on Reverse Camber designs. On many "Rocker" boards is that by design, the tip and tail, when weighted, are not in firm contact with the snow. 

So, how is running length being measured for Rockered boards? Well, that's interesting. In many instances, it's no longer being measured at all. Manufacturers that have been providing this measurement for years and in some cases decades, are now excluding the measurement from their literature and websites. Others have simply continued to measure wide point to widepoint, even while this is no longer a true representation of contact length.

Our suggestion: Two separate measurements. The fist being true weighted contact length and the second being the wide spot to wide spot measurement. This will allow the knowledgeable board seeker to get an idea of real running length, plus "available" running length (available by selective pressuring, even if not all at once) and wide spot distance to better gauge where the potential catch spots are in relation to rider stance.

But at least for now, Running Length, R.I.P.

More in next post...


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## Wiredsport (Sep 16, 2009)

*How wide of a snowboard do I need? Where is the width of a snowboard measured? What does width mean in terms of my boot size?*

Let’s start by talking about measurements, because this is where a lot of the confusion arises. The most common width measurement that is provided by manufacturers is "waist". The waist is measured at the narrowest point near the middle of the board (usually). But like with all things in snowboarding, different brands measure different things. Some measure the midpoint between the tip and tail and call that "waist". Others simply provide a measurement they call, "width", but do not really specify what width they are referring to. 

If that has you a bit confused, don't worry, because regardless of where these "waist" measurements are taken, they are not very useful for what they are typically used for. Most people think that this measurement is a good indicator of what foot size a board will handle. It is not, and for a simple reason: you do not stand at the waist, you stand at the inserts. A board's waist measurement is always less than the measurement at the inserts and often the difference is significant. Additionally, two boards with the same waist dimension, may have very different measurements at the inserts, depending on each board's sidecut. Measurement at the center insert is a much better way to compare boards for shoe size compatibility, but for some odd reason, manufacturers do not publish this info.

OK, so now we have told you why we think the commonly provided measurements are pretty silly, but what good does that do you? You still need to know how to figure out the correct width for your new board. Well, here comes. There are two easy steps to getting it right every time. 

First, measure your bare foot. It is important that you do not try to use a boot size. It is also important that you measure in centimeters, because the board measurements that you will be comparing to will be in cm. Here is the method that we suggest:

Kick your heel (barefoot please, no socks) back against a wall. Mark the floor exactly at the tip of your toe (the one that sticks out furthest - which toe this is will vary by rider). Measure from the mark on the floor to the wall. That is your foot length and is the only measurement that you will want to use. Measure in centimeters if possible, but if not, take inches and multiply by 2.54 (example: an 11.25 inch foot x 2.54 = 28.57 centimeters). 

Second, measure the board you are considering. This measurement is easy. It should be taken at the inserts. Try to measure at the inserts that you will be using to achieve your stance position. If you are unsure about this, simply measure at the center of the insert cluster (that will still be very close). Be sure to measure using the base of the board, not the deck. This is important because the sidewalls on many boards are angled in, and will therefore give you a smaller measurement on the deck than on the base. For our example's sake, let's say the measurement is 27.54 at the center insert.

Still with us? You are almost done. You now have a way to compare foot size to board width where it matters, but how do you interpret this info to get the correct width? Well that depends a little on stance angle. If you ride a 0 degree stance, you will want your foot size to be the same as the width of the board at the inserts or up to 1 cm greater. If you ride at an angled stance, you will want to measure the board across at the angles that you will be riding. Again, you will want your foot to at least match this measurement or exceed it by up to 1 cm. So using our example above, this guy has a foot 28.57 cm that exceeds the board with at the inserts 27.54 cm by 1.03 cm at a zero degree angle. But, when he angles his feet to the 15 degree angles that he rides, voila, he has .10 cm of overhang for a perfect fit.

But wait a second. Are we saying that you should have overhang, even with bare feet? Yes. You will need overhang to be able to apply leverage to your edges and to get the most out of your board. 1/2 inch to 3/4 inch of boot overhang for both toe and heel is ideal, and will not create problematic toe or heel drag. Remember that boots typically add 1/2 at both the toe and heel to your foot measurement from above, due to padding, insulation and the outer boot materials. We do not suggest using the boot length to size boards though, as the extra padding etc, cannot be used well to create leverage, that has to come from your foot itself. We highly recommend that riders do not choose boards where their feet do not come to or exceed the real board width.

OK, that's all well and good, but where can you get the information on board width at the inserts if the manufacturers don't provide it? That's easy. Email the store that carries the board(s) that you are considering. Give them your foot length in cm (and your stance width and angles if you know them). They will be able to provide you with the width at the inserts that you will be using and can factor in your stance angle as well to get you the exact overhang that you will have with bare feet.

PS:

Once mounted, the best way to test is to put your (tightly laced) boots into your bindings and strap them in tightly. It is important that you have the heel pulled all the way back into the bindings heel cup or the test won’t help. On a carpeted floor place your board flat on its base. Kneel behind the heelside edge and lift that edge so that it rests on your knees and so that the toeside edge is angled down into the carpet. Now press down with both hands using firm pressure, one hand on each of the boots. This will compress the board's sidecut and simulate a turn on hard snow. You can change the angle of the board on your knees to become progressively steeper and you will be able to see at what angle you will start getting toe drag. You will want to repeat the test for your heelside as well. If you are not getting drag at normal turn and landing angles, then you are good to go.

PPS:

Also a note about boots: Boot design plays a big role in toe drag as does binding ramping and binding base height. Boots that have a solid bevel at the toe/heel drag less. Many freestyle boots push for more surface contact and reduce bevel. This helps with contact, but if you have a lot of overhang with those boots it hurts in terms of toe drag.


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## Lstarrasl (Mar 26, 2010)

Nolefan2011 said:


> Dude, think about what you are saying. Are you going to drive a Ford Taurus because you live in Detroit? Are you going to eat at Mcdonalds because you live in Chicago?
> 
> This isn't some local bakery vs cost co. This is a snowboard, one that's in large production. Ride what you want.


DUDE yourself
Costco is from Seattle, Kirkland my home town.
Banked slalom, Holy Oly, Boxes for days, Downtown throw down, shit Mervin sponsors in the NW, they help the local economy. 

Would I drive a Ford if I lived in Detroit, yeah.


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## Hawkfan79 (Aug 11, 2011)

Wiredsport, so how do these two boards compare?


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## jdang307 (Feb 6, 2011)

Lstarrasl said:


> Hawkfan79 said:
> 
> 
> > Okay so putting the fact that it is made locally aside what makes the Billy Goat or another comparable Lib/Gnu board, choice is yours, better than the Heritage or Premier. I honestly have no bias either way, the only reason I've been leaning towards the Heritage is because of the number of great reviews it has gotten. For whatever reason I can't find many reviews good, bad, or otherwise of the Billy Goat.
> ...


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## Lstarrasl (Mar 26, 2010)

jdang307 said:


> Lstarrasl said:
> 
> 
> > Just a serious question. If it was Burton, not Mervin, in the PNW would you still be that loyal? What if it were 5150, or Lamar? :laugh:
> ...


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## Nivek (Jan 24, 2008)

Holy balls man they're snowboards. It's a snowboard company. You PNWers are crazy with your Mervin love. It's weird. Like get a room kinda weird.


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## jdang307 (Feb 6, 2011)

Nivek said:


> Holy balls man they're snowboards. It's a snowboard company. You PNWers are crazy with your Mervin love. It's weird. Like get a room kinda weird.


Whatever Nivek, we don't even know if you can get down a mountain without falling down :laugh:


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## Nivek (Jan 24, 2008)

jdang307 said:


> Whatever Nivek, we don't even know if you can get down a mountain without falling down :laugh:


I telemark. Snowboards are for queers.


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## Wiredsport (Sep 16, 2009)

Hawkfan79 said:


> Wiredsport, so how do these two boards compare?


They are both bomber constuctions from great, made in the USA companies, but there are big differnces in design and ride. The 162 NS has a notably deeper sidecut and is wider all around. The Billy Goat has a notably firmer flex. Add to that Magne-Traction vs vario and you have two very different boards.


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## Hawkfan79 (Aug 11, 2011)

Wiredsport said:


> They are both bomber constuctions from great, made in the USA companies, but there are big differnces in design and ride. The 162 NS has a notably deeper sidecut and is wider all around. The Billy Goat has a notably firmer flex. Add to that Magne-Traction vs vario and you have two very different boards.


So how are these differences going to show themsleves on the mountain? How is one going to ride compared to the other? Both seem to be more freeride oriented but like you said, they do have notable differences.


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## Wiredsport (Sep 16, 2009)

Hawkfan79 said:


> So how are these differences going to show themsleves on the mountain? How is one going to ride compared to the other? Both seem to be more freeride oriented but like you said, they do have notable differences.


A deeper vario side-cut which flares towards the contact points (NS) tends to be more whippy out of the turns where a shallower, mure constant radius (GNU) can offer a smoother feel. You will feel the Magnetraction on hardpack and ice. Flex will also be noticable. The softer flexing NS will allow you to easily compress into its deeper sidecut to initiate that turn, but will give up a bit of the feel of immediacy that comes from extra firmness.

There is a lot of give and take in board design and these are two great examples. The above are generalities. When you are dealing with variable Flex patterns, variable profiles, variable outlines, dampening systems, etc and then add in rider preference and technique it would be unfair to overly suggest what you will feel. These are two very competant mountain crushers that will really require a demo to fully appreciate.


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## jpb3 (Nov 29, 2009)

Wiredsport said:


> A deeper vario side-cut which flares towards the contact points (NS) tends to be more whippy out of the turns


Basically what I was trying to say with my paragraph of jibberish about tight carves


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## Hawkfan79 (Aug 11, 2011)

So is there a lib/gnu that would be more comparable to the Heritage? And vice-versa, is there a NS that would be more comparable to the Billy Goat?


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## Nivek (Jan 24, 2008)

NS to Goat would probably be the F1. Other way probably the TRS or Rice 157 only.


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## Hawkfan79 (Aug 11, 2011)

Nivek said:


> NS to Goat would probably be the F1. Other way probably the TRS or Rice 157 only.


Why the 157 only? What about the Dark Series?


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## Nivek (Jan 24, 2008)

Yeah Dark series too.

The Rices different sizes have different flexes. Not like the 157 Coda is stiffer than the 153, but like the Coda is stiffer than the Westmark. The three Rice sizes are all different boards actually. So the 157 is like the Heritage, but the 53 is more like the Proto and the other one is like the F1.


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## Hawkfan79 (Aug 11, 2011)

Nivek said:


> Yeah Dark series too.
> 
> The Rices different sizes have different flexes. Not like the 157 Coda is stiffer than the 153, but like the Coda is stiffer than the Westmark. The three Rice sizes are all different boards actually. So the 157 is like the Heritage, but the 53 is more like the Proto and the other one is like the F1.


Interesting because according to lib all of the Rice's have a flex rating of 7 but I do see that on other lib boards as they go up in length the flex rating goes up. I would also think that a Rice 161.5 is not nearly as stiff as a Premier F1 161.


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