# How not to jackhammer on carved turn



## Fielding (Feb 15, 2015)

I was riding some really bumpy wet slushy snow today on an unfamiliar, really long, stiff board (169 full camber directional with a long effective edge). On backside carved turns the board was bucking up off the lumps and ruts like a jackhammer. I tried to fight it and keep it down. A handful of times I lost and I ended up on my ass. I moved front binding forward a bit and that seemed to help but it kinda took something away from my turns. I cranked the flad all the way up but didn't seem to help keep the jackhammer down and it made my calfs burn. Somebody please tell me the cure for the jackhammer (besides don't ride lumpy wet snow).


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## Alonzo (Dec 30, 2015)

I lean my weight forward a bit, focus on driving my front heel down as hard as I can, and just hammer through it hoping for the best.


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## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

More squatting, less leaning.


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## Alonzo (Dec 30, 2015)

linvillegorge said:


> More squatting, less leaning.


Also this.


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## SGboarder (Jun 24, 2012)

linvillegorge said:


> More squatting, less leaning.


That and keep the knees loose and pumping. I see lots of people with their knees bent but locked at a particular angle. Highback lean can actually work against you in that respect.


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## freshy (Nov 18, 2009)

Hmm I would have thought a longer board would have been the best cure for those conditions, but apparently not. 
I also encountered very similar conditions in Revelstoke last Saturday, it was pretty soft and slushy but when the sun went behind the clouds and the temp dropped it quickly turned into like a shitty hard packed slush. The best I could do to avoid that jack hammering was to make lots of small quick turns instead of the usual long flowy S's. There was nothing that could be done to make it enjoyable other than find the groomers. It was a good time to pack it up for the day.


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## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

freshy said:


> I also encountered very similar conditions in Revelstoke last Saturday, it was pretty soft and slushy but when the sun went behind the clouds and the temp dropped it quickly turned into like a shitty hard packed slush.


That's when it's time to head to the bar.


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## stillz (Jan 5, 2010)

This is about smoothly managing pressure through the whole turn. Does the duration of your squatting and fore/aft movements precisely match the duration of your turn? Or do you burn through your range of motion early? I know when I stop actively and dynamically managing pressure, the chatter creeps in.

Here's a more detailed post I did earlier about this:



> Heelside chatter is a tough thing to fully eliminate, especially on steeps. Here's how I've been thinking about it. On steeps and during hard carves, we're creating large turning forces and pushing the limits of our skills and equipment. We need to be precise about how we distribute the forces we create throughout the turn. If we overload our edge at any point, we'll get chatter or worse.
> 
> First I make sure I'm actually finishing my toeside turns. If I don't do that, then I'll have extra energy that I'll need to control on the heelside. More energy requires more force, increasing the chance of overloading my edge. Therefore, I need to be absolutely certain that I'm finishing each turn. Once you're sure you're finishing your toeside turns, start to really pay attention to your toe to heel transition.
> 
> ...


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## Fielding (Feb 15, 2015)

The replies above have been helpful. Thank you. I suspect that I was not weighting my front foot through the turn as much and for as long as I should have. The board I was riding is directional and has a big nose, kind of like me. It's also super stiff. It's possible that stiffer bindings than what I was riding would have helped. With that said, I think it's possible that good technique could be the ultimate solution. 

After a handful of carved turns where I got bucked off, I did adjust to smaller turns (and more of them). After about 6 hours my legs got smoked from pushing around all that wet, heavy slop. It was brutal.

I'm going out on same conditions today but I'm going to take a softer, rocker-flat-rocker board. In the past I've had good feelings coming from it on slush days. No problems edging and the easy flex makes it very playful.


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## wrathfuldeity (Oct 5, 2007)

I'd defer to stillz answer. but if I understand your snow conditions...

I'd say suck up your knees....instead of powering down and then overloading your edge. So you are kind of unweighting the edge...but also maintaining good angulation leverage on the edge. Its kind of a finesse combo thing. That also includes not getting too transverse of the fall line and making quicker turns. 

Maybe what I'm thinking is doing cross under turns...but a lighter poppy x-under turns instead of the load'n-up x-under turns.

And going to say...a bit shorter...but not a soft noodle...you want some stiffness to hold an edge, float over the chop but not get the bucked.

but idk...its late in the shift and early in the morning...so quite possibly idk wut the F I'm preach'n


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## neni (Dec 24, 2012)

If it's slushy crud, a very stiff board dampens a lot by running over that slush crud like a tank. BTW: Too much weight on front foot on such soft conditions can lead to the nose digging in and an un-nice salto.
But if the bumps get too firm, too big? A long stiff board is simply not the weapon of choice then. If the board cannot flatten the bumps, and if it's too stiff to "bend" around the bumps, the only way it can go is over them. How much you take off depends on how much of the lift off you can absorb. Many very stiff boards ride that way. It's not the boards fault, it wasn't built for such conditions... if you have to ride it in such conditions, to short quick turns around the firm bumps. Needs a lot of concentration and reading the line. If you fail to find the line, have very low bent knees ready to absorb the bump.


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## strycker (Jan 28, 2015)

I typically use my Rome Tour which is a rocker-flat-rocker. I had a lot of fun at Whitetail with it this season and learned a lot on turns. It really responded on the Far Side when they managed to mogul up the dog leg right turn to the bottom. I was able to bend it around all the humps. I did manage to crest a few and end up on my ass too, but in a giant pile of granular, it was pretty soft. I changed up to my Flying V last Saturday and I was re-learning and having no fun. I couldn't seem to find the turn response the Rome had. i realize they are much different boards.


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## speedjason (May 2, 2013)

Stay relaxed and bend knees.


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## Oldman (Mar 7, 2012)

I too used to experience the "jackhammer" of which you speak, but only on heel edge. It was not until I really "examined" what was happening on my toe edge that was different from my heel edge experience that allowed me to correct this problem.

What I learned was that when riding toe edge, the pressure of my weight was right on top of my edge. When riding heel edge, my weight was "uphill" of my heel edge and therefore instead of riding on top of that edge, I was pushing it down the fall line; hit some uneven terrain, JACKHAMMER and often a sit down fall results. Used to piss me off big time.

I now make a really concentrated effort to keep my weight on top of my heel edge. 

Like Linvillegorge said, more squatting, less leaning.

Jackhammer no more. :smile:


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## Fielding (Feb 15, 2015)

Sure, if I ball up and tuck I can go over the chop no problem. But I'm addicted to those fully extended high speed Euro-carves.


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## Fielding (Feb 15, 2015)

My 164 Unity Reverse is proving to be a slush killer. Bringing out the funky carving board yesterday was probably a mistake. I find that today I'm plowing through the chop instead of launching over it. I've noticed that this soft board drags when I flex it hard. It allows me to control speed and bounce out of a turn when really squeeze it. When I look back up at my line it looks deep and, where I'm transferring rails it looks wide -but there's no skid. Kind of like cheater carving.


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## stillz (Jan 5, 2010)

neni said:


> BTW: Too much weight on front foot on such soft conditions can lead to the nose digging in and an un-nice salto.


This is exactly right.

I wasn't suggesting to keep the weight on the front foot throughout the turn, as this would likely cause the tail to wash out at the bottom of the turn. Try to link turns while holding a nosepress to see an exaggerated version of this.

On a somewhat related note, I also wouldn't suggest holding a deep squatting position throughout all phases of a turn, because that doesn't do anything to adjust pressure and turning power (though it can aid in maintaining balance). Holding a static position won't increase riding performance, even if your posture and alignment are "good."

I do suggest starting with the pressure toward the nose to initiate the turn, and then move it toward the tail as the turn progresses. The key is to make it a smooth, coordinated movement that lasts through the whole turn, NOT a fixed position which is held through the whole turn. Also important is to not get so far aft that it's difficult to get pressure back to the front to start the next turn.

It may take some time to dial this, or any dynamic movement, in, since you need to balance the range of motion, the timing, the intensity, and the duration of the movement to find something that works well and efficiently for you. For me, I found that my fore-aft range of motion is generally larger and easier to move through on my toe side, perhaps because I use a duck stance. The adjustment I recently made was to make a more aggressive move to the front foot to start my heelside turns, which resulted in less chatter and a tighter, more rounded turn shape.


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## speedjason (May 2, 2013)

neni said:


> If it's slushy crud, a very stiff board dampens a lot by running over that slush crud like a tank. BTW: Too much weight on front foot on such soft conditions can lead to the nose digging in and an un-nice salto.


I have done that a couple of times I was like WTF just happened.


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## Donutz (May 12, 2010)

There seem to be a number of things that can cause jackhammering. I've examined all the suggestions on this board, and identified the problem with _my_ turns. YMMV. But here are the possibilities that I've seen:


not getting as much edge heelside. This can be fixed by paying more attention or by adjusting highbacks.
As oldman mentioned above, leaning too far outside the profile of the board on heelsides.
Keeping your weight too far forward during the heelside turn. in conditions where you can jackhammer, you should be starting the turn forward-weighted, then shift to rear-weighting over the course of the turn.
Assymmetric turns.

This last item turns out to be my problem. For whatever reason, my toeside turns end with a maximum angle to the fall-line of 45-60 degrees, but my heelsides get damned close to 90. So basically, I'm doing a thinly disguised brake on my heelsides. As soon as I started concentrating on keeping the turn shapes symmetrical, it went away.

You have to find your own solution, of course. It may be a combination of issues.


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## Jcb890 (Dec 12, 2014)

Man I love reading these kind of threads to help try and pick apart my own riding.

I have this issue sometimes in rough snow on my heelside as well. I know I need to work on my overall technique, so next time out I'll work on more symmetry and where my weight is in regards to my board and edges. I also imagine these possible issues are more pronounced due to how much weight I've got swinging around... some of you guys are pretty small (in my opinion) while I'm pushing 245 lbs or so. So, I'm thinking perhaps any misplaced weighting might be more pronounced for me just because I have... so much of it for lack of a better term.


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## Rogue (Nov 29, 2014)

Oldman said:


> I too used to experience the "jackhammer" of which you speak, but only on heel edge. It was not until I really "examined" what was happening on my toe edge that was different from my heel edge experience that allowed me to correct this problem.
> 
> What I learned was that when riding toe edge, the pressure of my weight was right on top of my edge. When riding heel edge, my weight was "uphill" of my heel edge and therefore instead of riding on top of that edge, I was pushing it down the fall line; hit some uneven terrain, JACKHAMMER and often a sit down fall results. Used to piss me off big time.
> 
> ...


Light bulb moment for me, thanks for posting this, I am sitting here reading this thread wondering why I have this issue heel side not toe side. Voila!


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## jae (Nov 27, 2015)

Sorry for bumping an older thread, but how do you all deal with hard pack skier tracked out bumps of icy death? Those were really tossing me around today. With over cast today I couldn't see them until I was riding over them. 

And oldman/donuts you guys were enlightening.


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## Jcb890 (Dec 12, 2014)

jae said:


> Sorry for bumping an older thread, but how do you all deal with hard pack skier tracked out bumps of icy death? Those were really tossing me around today. With over cast today I couldn't see them until I was riding over them.
> 
> And oldman/donuts you guys were enlightening.


No, that's the right thing to do, to keep the thread going with new info and questions.

It can be tough in low or flat light, but I find that when I am feeling my best riding through rough terrain or something like moguls, I'm planning my turns ahead of time. Otherwise, you're reacting and getting tossed around instead of cutting in and out and knowing where you want to be.


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## speedjason (May 2, 2013)

jae said:


> Sorry for bumping an older thread, but how do you all deal with hard pack skier tracked out bumps of icy death? Those were really tossing me around today. With over cast today I couldn't see them until I was riding over them.
> 
> And oldman/donuts you guys were enlightening.


Stay loose and floppy.


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## KIRKRIDER (Mar 18, 2008)

Rogue said:


> Light bulb moment for me, thanks for posting this, I am sitting here reading this thread wondering why I have this issue heel side not toe side. Voila!



Also raise your feet fingers inside your boot. Keep shoulders aligned with the board, be smooth.


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## dave785 (Jan 21, 2016)

Oldman said:


> I too used to experience the "jackhammer" of which you speak, but only on heel edge. It was not until I really "examined" what was happening on my toe edge that was different from my heel edge experience that allowed me to correct this problem.
> 
> What I learned was that when riding toe edge, the pressure of my weight was right on top of my edge. When riding heel edge, my weight was "uphill" of my heel edge and therefore instead of riding on top of that edge, I was pushing it down the fall line; hit some uneven terrain, JACKHAMMER and often a sit down fall results. Used to piss me off big time.
> 
> ...


I am totally guilty of this.

I had been doing a "fix" of keeping my body as if I was leaning forward to touch the tip of my board. Much more so than usual... It was hurting my ability to use my knees as shock absorbers though. 

I realize now that it wasn't the fact that my weight wasn't forward that was causing the jack hammer.. it was that the weight was too far uphill.


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## wrathfuldeity (Oct 5, 2007)

speedjason said:


> Stay loose and floppy.


yup us old guys ... loose and floppy


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## speedjason (May 2, 2013)

wrathfuldeity said:


> yup us old guys ... loose and floppy


Hey, there is a saying. The older the ginger, the hotter the spice.:wink:


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## speedjason (May 2, 2013)

dave785 said:


> I am totally guilty of this.
> 
> I had been doing a "fix" of keeping my body as if I was leaning forward to touch the tip of my board. Much more so than usual... It was hurting my ability to use my knees as shock absorbers though.
> 
> I realize now that it wasn't the fact that my weight wasn't forward that was causing the jack hammer.. it was that the weight was too far uphill.


Yes, most people don't understand the other part of the term "sitting down" is you have to lift your toes to bring the toe edge of the board up.


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## SkullAndXbones (Feb 24, 2014)

jae said:


> Sorry for bumping an older thread, but how do you all deal with hard pack skier tracked out bumps of icy death? Those were really tossing me around today. With over cast today I couldn't see them until I was riding over them.
> 
> And oldman/donuts you guys were enlightening.


keep your knees bent and be ready to let your legs absorb the bumps at all times.


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## chomps1211 (Mar 30, 2011)

Rogue said:


> Light bulb moment for me, thanks for posting this, I am sitting here reading this thread wondering why I have this issue heel side not toe side. Voila!


Yeah,... I think my dim bulb brightened a bit reading that myself! :blush: I've been experiencing quite a few "Hard" sit downs due to my heelside turns washing out or the edge coming loose after jackhammering & getting bumped!

I had tentatively identified my problem as too much lean,.. Not enough squat! But focusing on correcting that didn't entirely fix things. (...the last one to occur this sunday has set me up with a _wonderfully_ sore hip & shoulder!) :laugh:

Squatting more definitely helps, but I still don't think I'm stacking my weight properly over that edge in order to keep it set thru out the turn! I'll have to pay a little more attention to that & see what difference if any it makes! >




wrathfuldeity said:


> yup us old guys ... loose and floppy


:blink: Speak for yourself,..!!!  :laugh:

Loose,..? Maybe! But ain't _NUTHIN'_ floppy bout this old codger!!  >

:hairy:


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## chomps1211 (Mar 30, 2011)

Btw,.. In response to the OP's situation! I have ridden in moguled out, bumpy, slushy spring conditions on a short, too flexible board! (...my 157Proto). Also done it on a longer, mid stiff, full camber ride! (...163W Arbor Roundhouse!). And just recently on a VERY stiff, 164 JJ's Flagship!

I found the mid stiff Arbor to be the best board (...for me anyway) in those conditions! 

The Proto was ridable,.. But I had to get SO low and pump so hard, my thighs wore out way to fast. And I was STILL getting bucked & thrown a lot! :blink:

The Flagship was far too stiff for the bumps! No flex or give whatsoever! It could punch through a lot of the bumps, but I still needed to get & stay low, working my legs to their limit to absorb the beating & ride it out. And it was still a very jarring, brutal ride!

The Arbor however was long and stiff enough to punch & plow thru the crud while still flexing enough to soften the jarring effect of riding around, over & thru those slush piles! Much less tiring leg work required!

If you really want to be able to ride in those conditions all day,..? You'll need to find a board with just the right length to stiffness to flex ratio! >


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## speedjason (May 2, 2013)

Just ollie over them.:nerd:


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## jae (Nov 27, 2015)

ok, I wrote a lot of crap, but decided to delete it because I'm going to try to engage my heel edge by squating/lifting my toes more. Same concept as the slush bumps? I really hate those small hard bumps... would a mountain that banned skiers not have those? Someone get on it.


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## Rogue (Nov 29, 2014)

Today was slushy and bumpy and I started doing the jackhammer lol I thought about this thread and tried playing around with correcting it. Toe side I am still smooth and I lean way more on my toe edge, trying to do the same doesn't work quite the same on heelside, but it was slightly better. I put more pressure on my back heel and it seemed to smooth things out. I also wondered if I'm not completing the turn like I do in toeside, like if I'm arcing longer vs shorter. That seemed to helped. It's hard to translate what I'm thinking in my brain as it's happening to text. I guess bottom line I'm playing with different things to help smooth it out.


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## jae (Nov 27, 2015)

Rogue said:


> Today was slushy and bumpy and I started doing the jackhammer lol I thought about this thread and tried playing around with correcting it. Toe side I am still smooth and I lean way more on my toe edge, trying to do the same doesn't work quite the same on heelside, but it was slightly better. I put more pressure on my back heel and it seemed to smooth things out. I also wondered if I'm not completing the turn like I do in toeside, like if I'm arcing longer vs shorter. That seemed to helped. It's hard to translate what I'm thinking in my brain as it's happening to text. I guess bottom line I'm playing with different things to help smooth it out.


I had the same thought about arc. i.e. my toeside is more of a curve while my heelside is more of a straight angle, but when I try to carve into a curve with my heels is when I wash out.


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## Kaladryn (Mar 18, 2016)

Here are a few tips that have worked for me in the past with regard to heelside jackhammering, although I usually feel it's ultimately from something I'm doing wrong mechanically, like not coming out of the turn when the board wants to, and staying in it too long, not transitioning front to back pressure with correct timing, etc...

1. Too much forward lean (most only back binding) will prevent you from maintaining the proper angle between your board and the snow when extending your legs on a deep heelside carve.

2. Improper rear angle can prevent you from pressuring your heelside edge properly during a heelside carve.

3. Stance too narrow, wider stance (or just set back more) helps you drive the tail harder coming out of heelside carves.

And finally for the abstract minded: Trying to ride the snow instead of the board in conditions that don't allow that.


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## dave785 (Jan 21, 2016)

Oldman said:


> I too used to experience the "jackhammer" of which you speak, but only on heel edge. It was not until I really "examined" what was happening on my toe edge that was different from my heel edge experience that allowed me to correct this problem.
> 
> What I learned was that when riding toe edge, the pressure of my weight was right on top of my edge. When riding heel edge, my weight was "uphill" of my heel edge and therefore instead of riding on top of that edge, I was pushing it down the fall line; hit some uneven terrain, JACKHAMMER and often a sit down fall results. Used to piss me off big time.
> 
> ...


So I went up in horribly slushy conditions and wanted to test this out in a more focused way and this has absolutely removed 100% of the jackhammering.

Then I filmed my GF and noticed that she was doing the same thing toe side, and toe side jack hammering. I pointed it out to her and told her what you had said and then showed her the video and she saw it too... she fixed it and now she's bombing down black diamonds.

I shit you not dude... you made both of us significantly better snowboarders. Thank you *very* much.


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## livingood_neef (Apr 15, 2016)

lol true story


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## shitty shredder (Feb 6, 2016)

Oldman said:


> I too used to experience the "jackhammer" of which you speak, but only on heel edge. It was not until I really "examined" what was happening on my toe edge that was different from my heel edge experience that allowed me to correct this problem.
> 
> What I learned was that when riding toe edge, the pressure of my weight was right on top of my edge. When riding heel edge, my weight was "uphill" of my heel edge and therefore instead of riding on top of that edge, I was pushing it down the fall line; hit some uneven terrain, JACKHAMMER and often a sit down fall results. Used to piss me off big time.
> 
> ...


I've read this probably 20 times and can't for the life of me figure out what you mean. Weight "on top" vs "up hill". I have tried any interpretation of this that I can think of and it ain't working. On steeper hardpack I lose the tail constantly heel side, but never a problem toe side.


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## dave785 (Jan 21, 2016)

shitty shredder said:


> I've read this probably 20 times and can't for the life of me figure out what you mean. Weight "on top" vs "up hill". I have tried any interpretation of this that I can think of and it ain't working. On steeper hardpack I lose the tail constantly heel side, but never a problem toe side.


check out my awesome graphic. That's what fixed my problem, not sure about yours... but it's what I took away from it.

EDIT: and I want to say that the angle of the board is also very important. being able to flex your calves to change the angle of your board to dig into the mountain more will really help with toe side, but you can't do that heel side... 

my artistic ability doesn't let me illustrate that though lol. just know that if you want to hold an edge, your force and the direction of your weight needs to be going* into *the mountain, not* down *the mountain.


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## joebloggs13 (Feb 28, 2013)

dave785 said:


> check out my awesome graphic. That's what fixed my problem, not sure about yours... but it's what I took away from it.
> 
> EDIT: and I want to say that the angle of the board is also very important. being able to flex your calves to change the angle of your board to dig into the mountain more will really help with toe side, but you can't do that heel side...
> 
> my artistic ability doesn't let me illustrate that though lol. just know that if you want to hold an edge, your force and the direction of your weight needs to be going* into *the mountain, not* down *the mountain.


That second image looks a bit like a euro carve...yes your artistic talents are a bit lacking...oint: I think its more the balance muscles and core strength, because I believe that what you say is true in that lower body position(not in relation to the fall line) is critical. Once you get that sweet spot balance down, you can literally lie down(euro carve) into a turn and dig a big trench...letting your weight transfer to that effective edge.


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## Oldman (Mar 7, 2012)

Dave 785, the artwork may not be Picasso, but you hit the nail right on the head. The only way I can describe it is to have your weight right above you edge at all times. As you demonstrated in your artwork, if your weight is "outside" of your board, you will Jackhammer sooner than later.

Another way to describe it is to have your weight "on top" of your board at all times. When you don't, you will have an "issue" in short order no matter what edge you are on.


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## Kaladryn (Mar 18, 2016)

Oldman said:


> Dave 785, the artwork may not be Picasso


No, that's exactly the problem, it looks like a Picasso


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## SGboarder (Jun 24, 2012)

dave785 said:


> check out my awesome graphic. That's what fixed my problem, not sure about yours... but it's what I took away from it.
> 
> EDIT: and I want to say that the angle of the board is also very important. being able to flex your calves to change the angle of your board to dig into the mountain more will really help with toe side, but you can't do that heel side...
> 
> my artistic ability doesn't let me illustrate that though lol. just know that if you want to hold an edge, your force and the direction of your weight needs to be going* into *the mountain, not* down *the mountain.





Oldman said:


> Dave 785, the artwork may not be Picasso, but you hit the nail right on the head. The only way I can describe it is to have your weight right above you edge at all times. As you demonstrated in your artwork, if your weight is "outside" of your board, you will Jackhammer sooner than later.
> 
> Another way to describe it is to have your weight "on top" of your board at all times. When you don't, you will have an "issue" in short order no matter what edge you are on.


You misunderstand what is happening. When leaning over the force does not act in line or parallel to the fall lie - gravitational pull is still in the same direction (straight down). Rather, when leaning over the center of gravity is not stacked/directly above the board and, hence, not acting on the edge any longer. 
So the 'cure' (staying stacked over the board and achieving board tilt through lower body angulation rather than leaning over) is correct but the explanation is wrong.


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## byebyeblackbird (Mar 21, 2016)

Am I the only one who has the opposite problem? My toe side tends to jackhammer. But yes, this thread is super helpful and makes a lot of sense. (The illustration, was like appreciating modern art. Required some deductive observation but well worth the attention.) I'm going to work on this over the weekend.


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## dave785 (Jan 21, 2016)

SGboarder said:


> You misunderstand what is happening. When leaning over the force does not act in line or parallel to the fall lie - gravitational pull is still in the same direction (straight down). Rather, when leaning over the center of gravity is not stacked/directly above the board and, hence, not acting on the edge any longer.
> So the 'cure' (staying stacked over the board and achieving board tilt through lower body angulation rather than leaning over) is correct but the explanation is wrong.


this is incorrect. Gravity is largely irrelevant if you're going fast enough to jack hammer. If Gravity was the only force then it wouldn't be a jack hammer, it'd just be a fall. Watch a video of people carving in half pipes - they'll hold an edge that will even go above them because of their momentum. 

What you actually have to overcome is momentum, the vector of which is 100% in the direction of the fall line. If it was just gravity then it would be a fall, not a slide with so much horizontal (downhill) momentum.


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## shitty shredder (Feb 6, 2016)

I posit that body position (other than fore/aft) does not change the forces being applied, since regardless of where your body is, the forces ultimately focus on the edge. Therefore it must come down to edge angle. Body position can help you achieve edge angle/leverage, which might be what is happening?

Based on the Picasso, this would mean the explanation is actually the lower edge angle.


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## SGboarder (Jun 24, 2012)

dave785 said:


> this is incorrect. Gravity is largely irrelevant if you're going fast enough to jack hammer. If Gravity was the only force then it wouldn't be a jack hammer, it'd just be a fall. Watch a video of people carving in half pipes - they'll hold an edge that will even go above them because of their momentum.
> 
> What you actually have to overcome is momentum, the vector of which is 100% in the direction of the fall line. If it was just gravity then it would be a fall, not a slide with so much horizontal (downhill) momentum.


Missing the point. Obviously you have to overcome the momentum (which incidentally not necessarily in the direction of the fall line, but that is not relevant to the point) - and to do that we use the edge. And the force pushing the edge into the snow (and giving us edge hold) is primarily gravity.


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## dave785 (Jan 21, 2016)

SGboarder said:


> Missing the point. Obviously you have to overcome the momentum (which incidentally not necessarily in the direction of the fall line, but that is not relevant to the point) - and to do that we use the edge. And the force pushing the edge into the snow (and giving us edge hold) is primarily gravity.


ah ok yeah that makes perfect sense. I misinterpretted your post. 

Here's a great article on carving for skiing. Skiing is obviously different, but the principles (and the physics) are extremely similar, and due to the downhill slalom the physics have been researched extensively.

http://www.youcanski.com/en/coaching/inclination.htm


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## Kaladryn (Mar 18, 2016)

SGboarder said:


> You misunderstand what is happening. When leaning over the force does not act in line or parallel to the fall lie - gravitational pull is still in the same direction (straight down). Rather, when leaning over the center of gravity is not stacked/directly above the board and, hence, not acting on the edge any longer.
> So the 'cure' (staying stacked over the board and achieving board tilt through lower body angulation rather than leaning over) is correct but the explanation is wrong.


I don't think this is what he is saying, I think he is saying, don't lean back heel side.


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## Kaladryn (Mar 18, 2016)

SGboarder said:


> Missing the point. Obviously you have to overcome the momentum (which incidentally not necessarily in the direction of the fall line, but that is not relevant to the point) - and to do that we use the edge. And the force pushing the edge into the snow (and giving us edge hold) is primarily gravity.


I hardly feel gravity when carving at high speed, I feel light as a feather, all the forces are from my forward momentum, which started out as gravity, but using the board and the hill has become something completely different, and much more


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## SGboarder (Jun 24, 2012)

Kaladryn said:


> I don't think this is what he is saying, I think he is saying, don't lean back heel side.


He and I are saying the same thing about what to do - ie do not lean over on heel side (or toe side for that matter).


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