# Fast and long freeride sticks.



## Nivek (Jan 24, 2008)

Have you pushed on a Jones Flaghip or Rossi Experience? Stiff as hell.

The Smokin KT22 comes in 172, Venture Odin comes in 173 and the Storm comes in 180 for a 26cm waist, Flow Maverick comes in a 169 as does the Solitude... so they are out there.

Really though with the progress in board design the 170+ sizes just aren't necessary. You now get better stability, edge hold, and float out of much smaller boards.


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## TLN (Sep 7, 2010)

Well, actualy yes, modern boards perform better nowadays. 
But there's two points that require bigger boards:
1. Floating in powder. No matter how techie your board is, you cannot get a nice float with 161W board, once you're 200 lbs.
2. Carving abilities. The more edge you have, the better yor grip is. That's it. The more stiff your board is, stable you go. 

That Venture is nice, especially in 180 cm. May be i'm missing something, but it was more fast boards before: Supermodel X 172, Unity dominion pintail, etc.

Honestly i've just ordered mine some nice board for my needs, and started that topic day ago. Just to check that i'm not missing a nice board for the money: big and fast. 

I'm quite surprised that you didn't mentioned custom-build boards (well, Venture can be custom, i think): Prior, Donek, Coiler, etc..


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## Kapn.K (Jan 8, 2009)

TLN said:


> But there's two points that require bigger boards:
> 1. Floating in powder. No matter how techie your board is, you cannot get a nice float with 161W board, once you're 200 lbs.


Apparently, my 250lb butt and 163W didn't get that memo. The powder was only 3 feet deep, though. Been eyeing that KT-22.


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## Justin (Jun 2, 2010)

200 lbs, went cat skiing on a 163w highlife. Would have been fine on something smaller.


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## CMSbored (Apr 2, 2009)

hmmmm, my 200lbs had no trouble riding waist deep on a 159 atomic hatchet in steamboat. i think its more rider than board.


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## TLN (Sep 7, 2010)

Kapn.K said:


> Apparently, my 250lb butt and 163W didn't get that memo. The powder was only 3 feet deep, though. Been eyeing that KT-22.


Hmm... You either got very steep slopes, either riding straight down. Or you're Jesus and you'll be fine on a 145 boards.
Seriously, don't you mind sharing any video?



CMSbored said:


> hmmmm, my 200lbs had no trouble riding waist deep on a 159 atomic hatchet in steamboat. i think its more rider than board.


Well, it definately depends on the rider, and how any of us prefer to ride. 

I can't imagine how to ride a 161W board in a trees in a fresh powder with not such a steep slope.


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## Nivek (Jan 24, 2008)

The idea that you can't ride powder on a 161 at 200# is bogus. 

I've ridden thigh deep snow on a CAMBERED 150 twin at 150#'s.

I spent an entire season riding Breck on a 152 with rocker and never had an issue riding deep snow.

Not to mention I gave plenty of options with rocker that come much bigger than 161. 

I didn't mention custom cause they're typically much more expensive. Who wants to spend $900 on a board they use only for special occasions?


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## Kapn.K (Jan 8, 2009)

TLN said:


> Hmm... You either got very steep slopes, either riding straight down. Or you're Jesus and you'll be fine on a 145 boards.
> Seriously, don't you mind sharing any video?


Nothing steeper than Vail Blues. I "may" have dropped into a black section but don't really pay attention. It looked super fluffy so I dropped in. You have to keep your speed up. No stopping to look where your buddies are. I just got a second board (Proto CT) and that will be my go to. I'll still bring the legacy until I get a real powder board and then I'll probably retire her or keep as spare, for friend, etc. I wish I had video. Funny thing is when the snow is right, we always forget to take pix and vids. It's usually on our last day and we remember that we haven't taken, any. NS Legacy-R. I didn't even have my bindings set back. They were actually centered. I did get the leg burn but not too bad. I wish I was Jesus-light.


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## kctahoe (Nov 14, 2010)

TLN said:


> Hmm... You either got very steep slopes, either riding straight down. Or you're Jesus and you'll be fine on a 145 boards.
> Seriously, don't you mind sharing any video?
> 
> 
> ...


Not that difficult, at 205 last winter my 160 heritage floated great on a day we got 2 feet plus the night before in Tahoe.


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## idshred (Jun 20, 2010)

kctahoe said:


> Not that difficult, at 205 last winter my 160 heritage floated great on a day we got 2 feet plus the night before in Tahoe.


floated great compared to what???


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## DrnknZag (Feb 7, 2010)

I clock in at a bit over 200# with all my BC gear, I definitely didn't have a problem riding 2 feet of fresh pow on a 158 NS SL beginning of last season. I routinely rode a 161 Highlife in pow with my BC gear the year before.

If you can't ride deep pow without a 180 board, you're doing something wrong.


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## BFBF (Jan 15, 2012)

TLN said:


> Well, actualy yes, modern boards perform better nowadays.
> But there's two points that require bigger boards:
> 1. Floating in powder. No matter how techie your board is, you cannot get a nice float with 161W board, once you're 200 lbs.
> 2. Carving abilities. The more edge you have, the better yor grip is. That's it. The more stiff your board is, stable you go.
> ...


When I was lifting super heavy, I was 200lbs and got great "float" from my Fish LTD 160 numerous times in epic Tahoe dumps.

New Tech = float on a smaller board.

Go get a Rossi Experience in 163 or 167== preferably one from a few years ago as I believe they are a tad stiffer than this yrs or last.

It's stiff, super fast, rockered for float and has super aggressive mtx that could hold an edge on concrete.


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## wrathfuldeity (Oct 5, 2007)

Not all deep poo is created equal. 3 ft of dry continental fluff is different than 3 ft of pnw poo. Now I haven't ridden the continental fluff but have done the pnw poo. I hear in dry continental fluff you can be titty deep still flying along and still feel the bottom...not so riding waist deep in pnw poo...can be hell and if you are in it that deep ya need a bigger board.

So just sayin it don't matter how ya weigh nor how long your board is...it matters how to make yo big ass float in the shit.


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## TLN (Sep 7, 2010)

Well, i don't know how you measure up, 2 feer or 3. I live outside US, in Kazachstan, and ride in places many people never been to. It can be 2-3 meters of a powder there.
I rode Legacy-R 174, firs rockered model, and sometime i feel that is not enough for me. And some weekends i definately wanna get something bigger. Even i can ride in powder up to my knees or waist, this is not what i want it to be. 

Really wanna see some guys 200+ riding 160 sticks in a powder. Because we either talk about different types of powder, either something wrong with that =)
I'd try to post a video to show you what kind of terrains i'm talking about.


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## TLN (Sep 7, 2010)

So, here we go, couple videos from my GoPro, this winter. 
The conditions are pretty nice, and this is what i'm talking about.

Watch this from 1:00.





and second one.






My "Specs" are: 230lbs, us13. Board is Never Summer Legacy-R 174W.
On 2nd video, guy: 190-200lbs, Board is Burton Ducati 168.
Both riding 6-7 years, and you can see we're not floating "so good", even on a long sticks.


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## dreampow (Sep 26, 2011)

I agree with what others are saying about the type of powder being a key factor.

Of course rider weight, skill level and terrain are all key elements.

I ride lots of deep powder and and some days I go through waist deep stuff with no issues on medium steep terrain. Another day with heavy powder and I would never head into the powder unless I am on a very steep run and I know there is an out onto a piste before it flattens out.

I weigh 175 so no comparison there, but I mostly ride a 157 Proto and I would say it gives me more float than my old Volkl 161 (cambered deck).

No doubt the new profiles give much better float.

Still if the OP is riding sticky pow he might need a very long board.

For a 200 lb plus dude 180 is not unreasonable depending on terrain and conditions (not very steep and very heavy wet powder).

A guy on here who is 230 rides a 180 birdman in Hakkoda where the powder is crazy deep and plenty of people out there ride longer than that.


For most conditions 180 will be much more than you need and as others have said limit your ability to make tight turns, which is no fun if you are in trees.

Just so you know i am not just talking powder here is a vid of me in some deep stuff.

Most of that is on a 161 cambered deck and a few shots are on a 156 rockered deck (borrowed).

You'll notice a couple of shots where it is really deep and I hardly make a turn. It was very heavy that day and you don't know how many Aussies I saw chest deep in concrete thick powder with a grueling trek out.
Many of them on long pin tail powder decks, just didn't have the powder experience or skill set. Many of them were probably riding deep powder for the first time.


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## dreampow (Sep 26, 2011)

Having just watched your vids it looks like your powder is heavy and your terrain is pretty flat. Problem is you also have lots of obstacles so you need to be able to turn fast so as to keep your momentum rather than be forced to stop.

I personally wouldn't want to be on a super long stick in that terrain. 

Maybe something with a big wide rockered nose and a swallow tail.

ETM is a memeber on here who is about 230 I think, he is also a powder nut and knows his shit about what boards kill it in seriously deep powder.

ETM where you at?


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## TLN (Sep 7, 2010)

dreampow said:


> For a 200 lb plus dude 180 is not unreasonable depending on terrain and conditions (not very steep and very heavy wet powder).
> 
> *A guy on here who is 230 rides a 180 birdman in Hakkoda where the powder is crazy deep and plenty of people out there ride longer than that.
> 
> F*or most conditions 180 will be much more than you need and as others have said limit your ability to make tight turns, which is no fun if you are in trees.


Ah.... I wanna live in Hakkoda =)))))))) 

Well, on my videos i'm riding 174W and 180 no that much more. 
I posted the trees videos, we still have some free-of-trees terrains, but we're all know it's simpler to ride it. 




dreampow said:


> Having just watched your vids it looks like your powder is heavy and your terrain is pretty flat. Problem is you also have lots of obstacles so you need to be able to turn fast so as to keep your momentum rather than be forced to stop.
> 
> I personally wouldn't want to be on a super long stick in that terrain.
> 
> ...


As i mentioned, that's probably the hardest parts of a mountain. Except the times, once you get to the bottom, where mountain flattens out. But usually conditions are like this or better(couple days old powder), or some hardpacks, on a no-powder days.

Keep in mind second idea: carved turns on a hardpack. 
I got a hardboot setup, and it's really fun to rail on alpine deck. But once i started hardbooting last season, i realized that i want my regular board to be stiffer, so i can push it very hard and stay on my edge. 

Actually, i've ordered a board, and just discussing what i missed.
I thought about NS raptor X 168, Volkl Selecta 175, or something in between those boards.


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## hktrdr (Apr 3, 2012)

dreampow said:


> I agree with what others are saying about the type of powder being a key factor.
> 
> Of course rider weight, skill level and terrain are all key elements.
> 
> ...


Good comments dreampow. 

Looking at TLN's video that is not a lot of pow (certainly not 2-3 meters - 3-4 feet maybe) compared to what we get in Japan, but it does looks heavy and sticky.
Still I think it is nothing that a 170 Birdman or a 169 F1 cannot handle - or maybe a 166 Sick Stick or even a 160 Fish.


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## TLN (Sep 7, 2010)

hktrdr said:


> Good comments dreampow.
> 
> Looking at TLN's video that is not a lot of pow (certainly not 2-3 meters - 3-4 feet maybe) compared to what we get in Japan, but it does looks heavy and sticky.
> Still I think it is nothing that a 170 Birdman or a 169 F1 cannot handle - or maybe a 166 Sick Stick or even a 160 Fish.


F1? What is it? 

Anyways, it depends on how much weight you put on top of your board. I really doubt, that 160 Fish won't sink under 220-250lbs guy.


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## hktrdr (Apr 3, 2012)

TLN said:


> F1? What is it?
> 
> Anyways, it depends on how much weight you put on top of your board. I really doubt, that 160 Fish won't sink under 220-250lbs guy.


Premier F1, one of the Never Summer sticks for big-ish mountain riding (other being the Raptor).

220-250lbs would probably be too much for the Fish, but it should be fine for the 200lbs that you stated initially.


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## TLN (Sep 7, 2010)

hktrdr said:


> Premier F1, one of the Never Summer sticks for big-ish mountain riding (other being the Raptor).
> 
> 220-250lbs would probably be too much for the Fish, but it should be fine for the 200lbs that you stated initially.


Got it. Forgot about the NS, somehow. Still having my NS next to me. 

With 200 lbs, freeride sticks like Raptor X/F1, or any other ~170 (and better wide)boards will be fine.
What to do, once you're 230 lbs? 
I mentioned 220-250 lbs, because someone in this topic said, that rides pow with 250lbs and 161W board. 
I'd shave off this 5 kilos, and definately get in the less then 100 kilos(220lbs), but anyways.

The topic falls to "how many cm freeriders need?" =))


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## BFBF (Jan 15, 2012)

TLN said:


> Got it. Forgot about the NS, somehow. Still having my NS next to me.
> 
> With 200 lbs, freeride sticks like Raptor X/F1, or any other ~170 (and better wide)boards will be fine.
> What to do, once you're 230 lbs?
> ...


Your videos are awesome!.

I'm telling you, for that kind of terrain/tree riding that's not steep with thick snow, the fish will destroy.

I've ridden mine in huge sierra cement tahoe dumps at Heavenly in trees and it slays.

Super fast turning and it will allow you to blow by fools in flat parts who are stuck with inferior camber decks.

If the 160 scares you, Burton had a 164 last year that you can get on Ebay and at a few US shops for under 500.

Key points for the fish:
-huge 30 mm taper with a massive shovel nose
- S rocker
- the 164 is wide 261 ww
- Swallow tail.
- Burton bases are blazing fast.

All this tech pops the nose up with very little if any rear leg burn(this was unsettling at first if you're used to camber) === it's impossible to sink.

And don't believe all the bullshit you hear, it's perfectly capable on groomers.

Here;s the specs.

Gondola Package
The Channel
SPRINGLOADED: S-Rocker™
SHAPE: Directional [30MM Taper]
FLEX: Directional
CORE: Super Fly II™ with Dualzone™ EGD™
FIBERGLASS: Triax™ Fiberglass with Carbon I-Beam™
BASE: Sintered WFO
SIDEWALLS: Slimrail
EXTRAS: NEW 150cm Fishcuit, Swallow Tail, Ellip Nose Kick, Pro-Tip™, Infinte Ride™
Downsize 3 to 6cm From Normal Board Length
Length (cm): 156, 160, 164
Effective Edge (cm): 120 (156), 123.5 (160), 127.5 (164)
Tip/Tail Width (cm): 31.25/28.25 (156), 31.60/28.60 (160), 32.05/29.05 (164)
Waist Width (cm): 25.5 (156), 25.8 (160), 26.1 (164)
Sidecut (m): 7.86 (156), 8.24 (160), 8.51 (164)

Someone else with an s rocker fish will chime in..


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## Kapn.K (Jan 8, 2009)

Damn, TLN. Cool little place. I don't think you need a new board, though. I think you need a saw! Some of that wooded stuff could just be thinned a little. You guys looked pretty damn good with some speed. The tree/twig areas were just overly dense. Too dense to haul ass and pick a line while you're doing it.


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## DrnknZag (Feb 7, 2010)

TLN, sounds like you already bought a board, but check out Furberg snowboards. They might be right up your alley.


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## TLN (Sep 7, 2010)

BFBF said:


> Your videos are awesome!.
> 
> I'm telling you, for that kind of terrain/tree riding that's not steep with thick snow, the fish will destroy.
> 
> ...


C'mon men. When that video was shot, a lot of our friend from Almaty. And there was a girl, really small, and cute. And she was riding 160 or 164 fish (1 out of 10 that it was less then 160). I can actually ask her. 
But she weights 50 kilos, and i'm 2x heavier. 
I can believe that it's too long for her, but that's definately not enough for me. What if i stick somewhere? I don't wanna stand deep in snow. How can i land some 2 or more meters jumps?

I understand that fish got a nice shape, but advice a 230 lbs guy with 13US foot 160 fish for powder AND CARVING? 
I bet any Prior Spearhead get me waaaay better then fish. Or dupraz D1 6"++, or something like that. 



Kapn.K said:


> Damn, TLN. Cool little place. I don't think you need a new board, though. I think you need a saw! Some of that wooded stuff could just be thinned a little. You guys looked pretty damn good with some speed. The tree/twig areas were just overly dense. Too dense to haul ass and pick a line while you're doing it.


Actually yes. As i said, we got some more places where i ride, tomorrow i'd post some more videos. 
By now, you can check out my videos for a contest. This was shot within 1-2 days, without much powder.










That was 1st time i was video editing =) 



DrnknZag said:


> TLN, sounds like you already bought a board, but check out Furberg snowboards. They might be right up your alley.


Yea, i watched. Nice idea BTW. I contacted furberg, you can find my post on a facebook page =)

Furberg is nice, but it is significally narrower then typical board. It is as wide as my Legacy 27cm as i remember, but tips are 29, lecacy have 31.9 
So, comparing 173 to 174 legacy, shape looks like some part was cut off the board. That won't add me lots of float, this will make it very terrible with US13 feet.
And this is quite soft stick, as i was told. 
However it'd take this anytime with something like 180XXL 28+ waist, 31 tips, 20M radius (better 14-20 VSR) and quite stiff, that i can carve on this, and run stable hi-speeds.


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## Kapn.K (Jan 8, 2009)

Looks the same year as my Legacy. 08/09, I think. Love the graphic and it's been great for me. Really like the last two vids, also. Looks just like me and my friends(falls and all). Good times.


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## TLN (Sep 7, 2010)

Yes, that's 08-09 Legacy.
After getting alpine board i realised that i want my regular board to be sitffer. That i can handle almost any board and it'd be super fun.


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## duh (Sep 7, 2011)

Check out the Lib Skunk Ape. The board goes up to 180 and has a 26.8 waist. The board design is driven by very big guys that ride thick powder in the PNW. I've ridden it a few times in differing pow conditions and love it. 

There is definately something to be said for having a big board on a deep pow day. The amount of energy you can load into the board for slashes and sprays is incredible. Effortless landings. Just don't try big spins.


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## BFBF (Jan 15, 2012)

rossi experience 168 wide.

i own and if you overpower that board, you're more of a man than jeremy jones and xavier de le rue and the next video you'll be filming you'll be getting paid for.

Check out some of the older Jeremy jones big mountain videos starting around 08/09 and you'll see JJ on the experience in crazy powder.(in fact, he's riding powder on it in parts of "deeper")

It's ultra stiff, offers no speed limit and has the most aggressive magnetraction imaginable + a softer rockered nose for float

Torsionally stiff, has carbon strips running up thru the center. It about twice as stiff as my old t6 and Billy goat.

Damp is an understatement as Rossi has some torsion box tech that will allow you to run over a small child and not feel.

The 168 length/width will piss on and laugh at your 230 lbs.

I have mine paired up with stiff Burton diode binding and If you don't consider yourself a strong rider, this board will EASILY ride you.

I only break it out when i'm riding wide open off piste terrain/ bowls/hike to/ steep stuff with crazy skiers or with some moron who will take me somewhere dangerous where edge hold on steep terrain is critical.

As an FYI, i've been on pretty much every NS board but the raptor and they feel like kids toys compared to my 2010 163.


Info:

Xavier de le Rue depends on the Rossignol Experience Magtek Snowboard to keep him on his feet through some of the sketchiest big-mountain lines known to man. This wide version gives big-footed freeriders the same performance as the regular version, just without the boot drag. Amptek and Magne-Traction team up with a stiff flex for a floaty yet responsive ride that's seriously pissed-off.

Product Features
Length: 164 cm, 168 cm
Shape: directional
Flex: stiff (10 out of 10 on Rossignol scale)
Camber: hybrid (Amptek All Mountain)
Sidewalls:
Effective Edge: [164 cm ] 1065 mm; [168 cm ] 1110 mm
Waist Width: [164-168 cm ] 261 mm
Sidecut Radius: [164 cm ] 9.2 m; [168 cm ] 10 m
Stance Width: [164-168 cm] 19.7 - 24.4 in
Stance Setback: 0.79 in
Core: wood
Base: UHMW (sintered)
Recommended Rider Weight:
Recommended Use: freeride
Manufacturer Warranty: 1 year


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## yuhaoyang (Apr 24, 2012)

as far as I know, companies that make boards boards around 180 are...
prior
winterstick
venture
gentemstick
pogo
nitro slash
lib tech birdman
rad air
radical
probably some others I forgot

you pay for a specialty item.The cheapest of them are venture and nitro, at around 500-600. They start going up pretty quickly; 900 for prior and winterstick, and up to 1600 for gentemstick and pogo
you do get what you pay for though, winterstick is made at wagner's factory, and pogo is made from a lot of kevlar and such.
You can pay a few hundred extra for pogo and prior to make you a custom board of your own specifications.


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## dreampow (Sep 26, 2011)

You could always do something like this.










Thats what I did to my cambered Volkl.

I have yet to try it on the snow but it should kill it in powder and maintain solid carving ability.

Was a few hours work spread over a week or so.

Can't wait to try her out.


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## KIRKRIDER (Mar 18, 2008)

A-Frame review


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## Ballistic (Aug 31, 2009)

TLN said:


> Well, actualy yes, modern boards perform better nowadays.
> But there's two points that require bigger boards:
> 1. Floating in powder. No matter how techie your board is, you cannot get a nice float with 161W board, once you're 200 lbs.
> 2. Carving abilities. The more edge you have, the better yor grip is. That's it. The more stiff your board is, stable you go.
> ...


Im 210lb. Freerider, advanced level. I ride mostly pnw and whistler.
My big mtn deck when i go to whistler is supermodel x 164. My supermodel is from burtons custom shop and it has a "race base". Its easily my fastest ride, i pass everyone on this thing. Love this deck. Its awesome in pow.

Next is my gnu riders choice 161. Its my most versatile board and a joy to ride, fast easy turns, superior edgehold.

Next.. Lib banana magic 157.. Also very versatile ... Superior in tree runs... My funnest board... Its rocker shape is great in pow. But not as good as my last board...

Burton Fish Ltd 160.. Everyone knows this stick kills it in deep stuff. 

I usually bring 2 boards to the mtn and switch it up as needed.


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## ETM (Aug 11, 2009)

Firstly for the guys who scoff at anything over 160. You simply dont understand what its like as a big guy trying to float on powder. In a way you guys are lucky, it all happens much easier for you.
There is a real need for big (170+) powder boards, there isnt much available any more, those that are have already been covered but my personal fav for an off the shelf board would be prior. They have some great boards available.

I have designed my own board for these excact conditions so I will run through some of my thoughts and reasoning, all of which has come from my experience riding big boards and deep powder. I am not a board design god by any means but I have worked out what works and what doesnt for the type of riding I do, you can see my vids in the link below riding my supermodel 172 swallowtail in some tight trees.


As for the design side of things my personal preference is minimal taper, camber with an early rise rocker nose, big stance setback and swallowtail.

------------------------------------
This is how I break down board design.

Sidecut radius.
Choose your fave for carving and be done with it. Your waist width will also be set at this point.

Taper.
Too much taper is a negative influence on carving. Keep it mellow, you dont need taper for float if you use some of the ideas below.

Stance setback.
Stance setback is in relation to the side cut only, the nose and tail dont come into play here. Personally I can go 100mm setback and still be able to carve the board, most others will probably want less but have probably never tried so much setback as most boards wont get you near 100mm. 

Nose and tail length. 
Ok so you want a big rocker nose with a very gradual up turn. On my board I made the nose 340mm long. The tail length is 100mm.
The differential in nose-tail length gives you a much larger surface area in front than behind. Its giving you setback performance in powder but your stance is still in the centre of your sidecut radius (100mm back in my case) so you can carve like normal.

Swallowtail.
For me a swallowtail is a no brainer, if you dont have one you are giving up much of the ability to be able to control your big board much like a smaller board. 
A swallowtail is decreasing the boards surface area behind the rear foot which lets the tail sink and the nose rise. Rear leg burn is eliminated in deep snow. The surprising thing about a swallowtail is the control it gives you from the back foot, I have tried to explain this many times and the only word that comes close to describing the feeling is agility.
The swallowtail makes your big board feel agile and nimble and increases your confidence level to a point where you feel like there isnt a tree in the world you cant dodge even at mach 1 speeds. If you have not tried one in deep snow you just arent living IMO. 

Camber.
I am a traditional camber lover for carving, you just cant beat it and yes I own a neversummer but still prefer plain old normal camber. It rails so hard and gives so much confidence on piste that I can not live without it. On my camber mould I made it so the camber sections are the same length from centre of binding to the tail and centre of binding out in front. I am directly in the centre of my camber section.
With the camber sorted out you can now use the rest of the length out front to create a very gradual nose rise much like a surfboard or speedboat hull. This is key to getting excellent float and is something you will notice my supermodel lacks in the vids in my sig.
Another interesting concept is the camber/taper relationship. By having an early rise nose in relation to the sidecut radius you can effectively eliminate the negative influence that taper has on carving as the portion of nose that is wider than the tail is now lifted up off the snow and is not really part of the effective edge any more.

Stiffness.
Stiffness is very personal, I like a moderately stiff board with a softer (thinner core) section between the bindings so I can flex the front of the board into the next turn.

------------------------------------

This is my board all drawn up, please excuse the poor image quality (screen shot)









And this is it CNC profiled, this is to be used as my template for building the board.


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## yuhaoyang (Apr 24, 2012)

looks good, how do you figure out the length of the tails/depth and width of cut? Apparently some people complained that the cut of some wintersticks in the past were too deep (having never ridden one myself)
also to OP if you do shell out the money for prior or pogo, they'll pretty much build a board for any shape/flex/topsheet design you want =o
Apparently according to a youtube video somebody got a hardbooter 270 winger gun from pogo before LOL
Also forgot ogasaka OGASAKA


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## ETM (Aug 11, 2009)

yuhaoyang said:


> looks good, how do you figure out the length of the tails/depth and width of cut? Apparently some people complained that the cut of some wintersticks in the past were too deep (having never ridden one myself)
> ]


Are you referring to the swallowtail cut out?


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## yuhaoyang (Apr 24, 2012)

yarr
10char


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## Ballistic (Aug 31, 2009)

Short tail on a pow board= its like rear wheel steering on a forklift. 
You turn fast and easy. Slashy.


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## ETM (Aug 11, 2009)

Basically I cut my first one (supermodel) to what I thought looked right, removing the maximum amount of surface area without compromising the strength too much. I took it to japan and it worked so well it blew my mind.
I like to get my back foot close to the cut, I just returned from a splitboarding weekend where I rode a voile swallowtail 178. Its longer but thinner cutout (similar to those ogasaka boards) means you cant get as far back on the board and a lot of agility is lost.

For trees I love my design, for an open bowl you can definately have the other design and love it but it does suffer in trees compared to my design.


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## dreampow (Sep 26, 2011)

ETM said:


> Firstly for the guys who scoff at anything over 160. You simply dont understand what its like as a big guy trying to float on powder. In a way you guys are lucky, it all happens much easier for you.
> There is a real need for big (170+) powder boards, there isnt much available any more, those that are have already been covered but my personal fav for an off the shelf board would be prior. They have some great boards available.
> 
> I have designed my own board for these excact conditions so I will run through some of my thoughts and reasoning, all of which has come from my experience riding big boards and deep powder. I am not a board design god by any means but I have worked out what works and what doesnt for the type of riding I do, you can see my vids in the link below riding my supermodel 172 swallowtail in some tight trees.
> ...


Told you he was a powder nut.

Nice breakdown ETM. Just itching to get on my swallowtail and check it out.

Also hopefully make it up to Hokkaido in early Feb and jump on one of your boards.

@yuhaoyang, you have a prior powder stick right?
Let us know how it rides when you get it out, also a vid would be nice.
Those things are expensive but look like a really top notch powder deck.
They say it still carves well on hardpack too.


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## yuhaoyang (Apr 24, 2012)

will do, not sure how much time I will have this year as it's my final year of school, but some time this season I'll remember to record a video lol, it just probably won't be in ideal conditions.

ETM where do you mount your bindings then? Since the 16 insets/foot gives so many options lol


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## ETM (Aug 11, 2009)

dreampow said:


> Told you he was a powder nut..


 100% certified





dreampow said:


> Nice breakdown ETM. Just itching to get on my swallowtail and check it out.
> 
> Also hopefully make it up to Hokkaido in early Feb and jump on one of your boards..


 It would be great to meet up with you mate, hopefully you make it up. 





dreampow said:


> @yuhaoyang, you have a prior powder stick right?
> Let us know how it rides when you get it out, also a vid would be nice.
> Those things are expensive but look like a really top notch powder deck.
> They say it still carves well on hardpack too.


The pow stick is a beautiful board, I would love to ride one in a big open bowl. It would carve better than any rocker board.


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## ETM (Aug 11, 2009)

yuhaoyang said:


> will do, not sure how much time I will have this year as it's my final year of school, but some time this season I'll remember to record a video lol, it just probably won't be in ideal conditions.
> 
> ETM where do you mount your bindings then? Since the 16 insets/foot gives so many options lol


 I put a heap of insert holes in the template so I can accommodate a lot of binding positions, not all of them need to be drilled in the actual board. The front holes are centre of sidecut radius for a 560mm stance, the rear holes are 100mm setback. On the diagram I posted you can see a vertical broken line, that is centre of sidecut radius.


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## yuhaoyang (Apr 24, 2012)

so sorry for the horrible thread jack happening lol but
what's your take on having the actual stance centre further back than the sidecut centre?
My limited knowledge seems to make it that taper should serve as a method of matching both together? (Which is why direcitonal stance+twin shape doesn't make much sense)

if that doesn't make much sense, it's my late night post. I'll read it again tomorrow to check if it makes sense... Good night!


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## ETM (Aug 11, 2009)

yuhaoyang said:


> so sorry for the horrible thread jack happening lol but
> what's your take on having the actual stance centre further back than the sidecut centre?
> My limited knowledge seems to make it that taper should serve as a method of matching both together? (Which is why direcitonal stance+twin shape doesn't make much sense)
> 
> if that doesn't make much sense, it's my late night post. I'll read it again tomorrow to check if it makes sense... Good night!


 For me personally it just feels better and increases the response I get from the tail in powder, I experimented and thats where I like it. 99% of people could be centre of sidecut on that board and be more than happy, I just like my foot being real close to the swallowtail cut. 
For carving centre of sidecut is best no question.

I am not a fan of big taper.


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## TLN (Sep 7, 2010)

ETM, seems you're know this theme well enough =)

well, at first, i've already own one Prior board: 179 4WD. But that's hardboot only, and even being named 4WD it's like quite narrow carving board for my US13. I really like it. Put my risers in the end of a season and it turned even more fun. 

Now to my freeride: 



ETM said:


> Sidecut radius.
> Choose your fave for carving and be done with it. Your waist width will also be set at this point.


10M+.
I suggest it's a bit easier to bend the board beeing on softies, because of an angles. And typicaly alpines are stiffer. 
10m 



ETM said:


> Taper.
> Too much taper is a negative influence on carving. Keep it mellow, you dont need taper for float if you use some of the ideas below.


exactly what i think. too much taper will affect carving.




ETM said:


> Stance setback.
> Stance setback is in relation to the side cut only, the nose and tail dont come into play here. Personally I can go 100mm setback and still be able to carve the board, most others will probably want less but have probably never tried so much setback as most boards wont get you near 100mm.


interesting idea about checking setback about the radius. 
I prefer beeing more centered over the board this can do well, once powder aint that fresh, so you're not sinking in.
Honestly, i don't catch the idea of riding with all my nose up. I prefer when tail don't sink too much, until i push it for it.





ETM said:


> Nose and tail length.
> Ok so you want a big rocker nose with a very gradual up turn. On my board I made the nose 340mm long. The tail length is 100mm.
> The differential in nose-tail length gives you a much larger surface area in front than behind. Its giving you setback performance in powder but your stance is still in the centre of your sidecut radius (100mm back in my case) so you can carve like normal.


well, this is opposite to pintails. this boards have quite long but narrow tail, that have a less surface area, but long edge. 
Depends on a conditions, in a really deep powder this is needed, but i don't think i need so much difference.



ETM said:


> Swallowtail.
> For me a swallowtail is a no brainer, if you dont have one you are giving up much of the ability to be able to control your big board much like a smaller board.
> A swallowtail is decreasing the boards surface area behind the rear foot which lets the tail sink and the nose rise. Rear leg burn is eliminated in deep snow. The surprising thing about a swallowtail is the control it gives you from the back foot, I have tried to explain this many times and the only word that comes close to describing the feeling is agility.
> The swallowtail makes your big board feel agile and nimble and increases your confidence level to a point where you feel like there isnt a tree in the world you cant dodge even at mach 1 speeds. If you have not tried one in deep snow you just arent living IMO.


I haven't ridden swallowiails, but most people same, as you're saying. I tend to belive this, but this makes board very special i think.
You cannor ride it switch =)
You can hit the tail very much, as you can break it more easily, then regular board.
And people say, it's better ride swallowtail in powder, when your tail never reach hard snow under powder. Once there's 1-2 foot of pow, and you can reach it with your tail, it ain't that good to ride. again, i never tried swallowtails by myself.




ETM said:


> Camber.
> I am a traditional camber lover for carving, you just cant beat it and yes I own a neversummer but still prefer plain old normal camber. It rails so hard and gives so much confidence on piste that I can not live without it. On my camber mould I made it so the camber sections are the same length from centre of binding to the tail and centre of binding out in front. I am directly in the centre of my camber section.
> With the camber sorted out you can now use the rest of the length out front to create a very gradual nose rise much like a surfboard or speedboat hull. This is key to getting excellent float and is something you will notice my supermodel lacks in the vids in my sig.
> Another interesting concept is the camber/taper relationship. By having an early rise nose in relation to the sidecut radius you can effectively eliminate the negative influence that taper has on carving as the portion of nose that is wider than the tail is now lifted up off the snow and is not really part of the effective edge any more.


Camver for me too.
Rocker is that kind of board, that is already bend for that people that cannot bend it when riding. pre-bend =) 
That helps a lot in pow, but not 100% needed there. And it definately gives you more energy in a carved turns.




ETM said:


> Stiffness.
> Stiffness is very personal, I like a moderately stiff board with a softer (thinner core) section between the bindings so I can flex the front of the board into the next turn.


Hmm... quite stange. Once your board tend to bend beetween your bindings that makes it's nose don't bend that much. 
I think that it's better to have a similar stiffness from the nose to your back foot, with tail a bit stiffer. That's my opinion.

So for me, regular shaped quite stiff board with small taper and small setback is fine. I'd prefer more stance options, as ETM, because of flexibility. 
This ended in 180cm 28waist width Donek Incline. Can't imagine, how it will ride, but i bet it be very fun. 
Can't tell the spect, but the radius are 10-12.5 meters triple radius. Tips width will be like 33-32. Taper is less then 2cm. 

ETM, your desing really close to volkl selecta, doesnt it? 
I thought about it, but i didn't found 175W with camber, and what i found was with unreasonable prices.


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