# front foot fatigue - how to avoid?



## Guest (Sep 3, 2007)

A few things to try....

Try getting different boots...DC Judge boots are teh sux. But it may not be giving you the support you need.

I feel as though you are putting too much of you weight on the front foot. While it is good form to slightly lean down the mountain, you still want to keep a neutral weight balance.

Check your forward lean on the bindings. Maybe your forward lean is too much for the style you like to ride.


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## swmike (Aug 16, 2007)

Two things come to mind.

1) Since you don't ride that often you are probably only turning your board with tip/tilt. That being the case and unless you had a real instruction from an AASI Instructor (US) or CASI in Canada, etc. - you "may" not be doing it completely right. I'll assume though that you have a good stance... knees bent; weight around 50/50 over your feet; and your back straight - so that if someone took a laser straight down it would go through your head, through your body and come out directly in the center of your board between your feet. In other words, your weight is stacked directly over your feet/board. To do a toe-side turn you want to not only press down with your toes but also push your knees out. If you are only using your toes - that will indeed burn after a run or two. And then for heel-side you want to not only pull your toes up, but move your hips back (keeping knees bent.) If you aren't doing that - then you definitely will have more stamina. What this moving your knees out hips out will do is put your weight over the edge and eventually your toes are just there for fine tuning. It works!

2) There are other ways to turn your board besides tilt. Pressure, pivot, and twist. But I'd bet that it's #1 and that, well - if you are in the US, next time at a resort ask for an AASI Certified Instructor to do a ride analysis. Once done, they'll be able to help you with the next step. Especially if you get out for one trip a year - you won't regret it!


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## Slaughterhouse (Aug 17, 2007)

Check your stance width. You may slightly be too wide or too narrow. This is going to put strain on one of your feet. As it is your front foot that is causing you grief it is likely that you are pulling back off your front foot so you would actually need to lean more forward. A lot of people think they are leaning forward but are subconciously freaked out about leaning forward on a downhill slope and are in fact leaning back. This makes turns seem a little more difficult than they feel they should be. Rest assured, while you think you are leaning forward, you are in fact not. Get a friend to videotape you from the side going downhill and you will see for yourself. As for myself, I ride a very narrow stance at +15 -3 and lean quite forward to almost a crouch. This really accelerates my descent.


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## boarderaholic (Aug 13, 2007)

Slaughterhouse said:


> Check your stance width. You may slightly be too wide or too narrow. This is going to put strain on one of your feet. As it is your front foot that is causing you grief it is likely that you are pulling back off your front foot so you would actually need to lean more forward. A lot of people think they are leaning forward but are subconciously freaked out about leaning forward on a downhill slope and are in fact leaning back. This makes turns seem a little more difficult than they feel they should be. Rest assured, while you think you are leaning forward, you are in fact not. Get a friend to videotape you from the side going downhill and you will see for yourself. As for myself, I ride a very narrow stance at +15 -3 and lean quite forward to almost a crouch. This really accelerates my descent.


Rumor has it, that you go so fast you levitate...=O! 

There might also be the possibility that you're tightening the lower half of your boot too tight, to possibly compensate for heel lift, or something of that nature. And if that's the case, then you probably just have poorly fitted boots. 

And you have Cartels, which means, that the forward lean that come with those bindings may not be jiving with your stance width/angle.


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## Slaughterhouse (Aug 17, 2007)

boarderaholic said:


> Rumor has it, that you go so fast you levitate...=O!
> 
> There might also be the possibility that you're tightening the lower half of your boot too tight, to possibly compensate for heel lift, or something of that nature. And if that's the case, then you probably just have poorly fitted boots.
> 
> And you have Cartels, which means, that the forward lean that come with those bindings may not be jiving with your stance width/angle.


Jess, I was thinking about this after I posted earlier and I see you've nailed the problem! But I was thinking he was rachetting down his toe strap too tight on his front binding, but the boot is also just as likely! I remembered I kept doing that to myself a few years ago because I got into the habit of tightening all my straps before barging hills. I ended up feeling like my foot was being curled up from the sides ans thinking it was a plethora of different causes. In the end I loosend my front toe strap and voila; it was like a miracle cure or something, lol.

Lol, I've only gone so fast once where I was just gliding off tiny irregularities on the snow. Looking back you could only see a few scuffs down the hill as opposed to one long cut. I think Darren may have been there, I can't remember.


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2007)

hi - 

do you mean knees "out" over the toeside edge or "out" in some other sense?

I was told to "open" or spread the knees to initiate heelside turns and close them to initiate toeside turns.

Also there is no fatigue with my heelside turns.

I've had some instruction - not certified but an accomplished snowboarder and I suspect that I'm not too far off. I have been surfing for 35 years - that may have introduced some bad habits into my snowboarding...

I will definitely look for instruction this year at Telluride, but the resort 'private' lesson is like $400. 

I will try loosening both my boots and bindings - but would that explain it only happening on the front foot?

One more thing - usually I am not experiencing great powder days. So, this fatigue is happening when the snow is relatively hard packed, groomed, and not deep.


Thanks everyone for all the advice!

jeff





thanks.



swmike said:


> Two things come to mind.
> 
> 1) Since you don't ride that often you are probably only turning your board with tip/tilt. That being the case and unless you had a real instruction from an AASI Instructor (US) or CASI in Canada, etc. - you "may" not be doing it completely right. I'll assume though that you have a good stance... knees bent; weight around 50/50 over your feet; and your back straight - so that if someone took a laser straight down it would go through your head, through your body and come out directly in the center of your board between your feet. In other words, your weight is stacked directly over your feet/board. To do a toe-side turn you want to not only press down with your toes but also push your knees out. If you are only using your toes - that will indeed burn after a run or two. And then for heel-side you want to not only pull your toes up, but move your hips back (keeping knees bent.) If you aren't doing that - then you definitely will have more stamina. What this moving your knees out hips out will do is put your weight over the edge and eventually your toes are just there for fine tuning. It works!
> 
> 2) There are other ways to turn your board besides tilt. Pressure, pivot, and twist. But I'd bet that it's #1 and that, well - if you are in the US, next time at a resort ask for an AASI Certified Instructor to do a ride analysis. Once done, they'll be able to help you with the next step. Especially if you get out for one trip a year - you won't regret it!


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## boarderaholic (Aug 13, 2007)

jbeck said:


> hi -
> 
> do you mean knees "out" over the toeside edge or "out" in some other sense?
> 
> ...


Knee's out as it "point them towards your tip and tail" direction. If anything, "closing" your knees is a bad idea, it doesn't stack your weight properly, which makes turning harder. But, I ultimately suspect that your feet pain are caused by your boots.


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## swmike (Aug 16, 2007)

Hum... you went right to discussing a flex turn - using your knees to rotate in or out to flex the board and turn. Usually this is taught after a rider has tilt down. But in any case - yes, I am talking about using your knees over the toe-side edge. The reason tilt (w/knees out for toe-side) works is that the board is concave. So when you put it up on edge, it turns. And doing that just with your toes will indeed cause all the muscles you mentioned to hurt very quickly unless you use your weight also over that edge. (And the fact that you had to ask tells me we are probably on to something.) BTW - You get this down and you will be less depended on perfectly fitted boots, tightness, etc. Why? Because you aren't working the board just from your feet. The movement starts there - but you are getting your body in the act of initiating turns, not just your feet and knees.

Oh, as I said, I am assuming you have a good stance. But if it isn't 50/50 or 60/40... but you are getting in the back seat... of course you can't compensate for that by leaning forward... putting your head/shoulders forward only causes your hips to go back. So before you start... get a good stance, and put your hands on your hips, physically move your hips with your hands more forwards... see what that feels like and then keeping them there as you take off. That little demo usually helps.

There are alot of instructors on here that would love to know where they can get a cut of $400 a lesson! But no, there's a trick to taking lessons at resorts. I never suggest people take private lessons... but sign up for a group lesson and then tell them you are a level 2/3 or 3/4. That will usually end up 
giving you a private or at most 2-3 people in the group. Then... the Instructor will have to do a ride analysis just to know where each person's skill is at.

Thanks for asking. It's been fun breaking it down before the season starts!



jbeck said:


> hi -
> 
> do you mean knees "out" over the toeside edge or "out" in some other sense?
> 
> ...


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2007)

hi - so leaning back is consistent with my problem? I believe you, but I'm curious with why that wouldn't add rear foot burn and relieve front foot burn ?

What's the correct stance width - I just use the standard marks on the board.

I just checked and a full day private lesson at telluride (my brother lives there so that's why I usually go there) is $595!

thanks!


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## boarderaholic (Aug 13, 2007)

jbeck said:


> hi - so leaning back is consistent with my problem? I believe you, but I'm curious with why that wouldn't add rear foot burn and relieve front foot burn ?
> 
> What's the correct stance width - I just use the standard marks on the board.
> 
> ...


Yes, that's probably part of your problem. Your front foot is forced to work more to compensate for the leaning back, which hurts like a mofo. 

Correct stance width- it's up to you. Start shoulder width apart, and fiddle around with it from there. If you like where you are now, then just leave it. 

And, that lesson better include breakfast, lunch, dinner, a massage, and room accomodations by a top notch chef. I have NEVER heard of a private that is that expensive before...ever!


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## swmike (Aug 16, 2007)

Leaning back I assume you are talking to someone else's comment. Because that's secondary to getting the fundamentals down. Yea, it can hurt/help, but once you are using your entire body to tilt the board you will be able to play with the binding lean front/back and see what works. And that too will help lower leg pain. But again, without the technique... you are just wokring your legs too much!

Stance width - yep, shoulder width is where everyone starts and most people end. And if you are riding the correct size board - the default markings may have it right.

WRT lessons... unless you are extremely wealthy and just want to buy a friend for the day - I can't imagine what you could learn after an advanced 60-90 minute lesson that wouldn't take the rest of the day to work on.

I have seen people take one 60 minute lesson several days in a row - but you can get alot of input in an hour - enough to work on for awhile.

At some point here though we are swatting gnats in knowing what exactly is going on. I think you've heard about all the options. I'll give the same advice an online doctor would... see a specialist and let them diagnose it now.

Have a great time! Telluride - I live a few hours from there. Let me know when you are going and may be up for some riding. But check out that "Morning Clinic" that they offer - that might be what you want. At some resorts those are free! But they also mention "Group Lessons" - just don't give the details.





jbeck said:


> hi - so leaning back is consistent with my problem? I believe you, but I'm curious with why that wouldn't add rear foot burn and relieve front foot burn ?
> 
> What's the correct stance width - I just use the standard marks on the board.
> 
> ...


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## Slaughterhouse (Aug 17, 2007)

boarderaholic said:


> Yes, that's probably part of your problem. Your front foot is forced to work more to compensate for the leaning back, which hurts like a mofo.
> 
> Correct stance width- it's up to you. Start shoulder width apart, and fiddle around with it from there. If you like where you are now, then just leave it.
> 
> And, that lesson better include breakfast, lunch, dinner, a massage, and room accommodations by a top notch chef. I have NEVER heard of a private that is that expensive before...ever!


That massage had also better be "full service" lol. If you are pulling back on your board, your front foot is being twisted in both your boot and binding while at the same time trying to initiate the turns. Your fighting against what should be natural. It is an ugly combination that fatigues your front foot. Adjust your stance, straps and consciously lean more forward on your downhill runs. You will have more control over your turns with more weight towards the nose of your board.


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## killclimbz (Aug 10, 2007)

jbeck said:


> hi - so leaning back is consistent with my problem? I believe you, but I'm curious with why that wouldn't add rear foot burn and relieve front foot burn ?
> 
> What's the correct stance width - I just use the standard marks on the board.
> 
> ...


Do they at least give you a reach around???


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## swmike (Aug 16, 2007)

Too wide and you will feel it in other places as well...


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## Guest (Sep 5, 2007)

Slaughterhouse said:


> Jess, I was thinking about this after I posted earlier and I see you've nailed the problem! But I was thinking he was rachetting down his toe strap too tight on his front binding, but the boot is also just as likely! I remembered I kept doing that to myself a few years ago because I got into the habit of tightening all my straps before barging hills.


I really doubt it is the toe strap being too tight (not bashin on yah slaughter), but he has Cartels. Cartels are capstrap which doesn't cause the "pinch" (= bad blood circulation = cold & painful).

While leaning back is a bad habit and makes you lose control, I also don't think that is the reason your foot hurts. I could be wrong though, please tell me if I am.

I re-iterate...

You definitely SHOULD be tightening your boots as much as possible. You want as much contact with the board as possible and having a loose boot is not good for that (A soft boot for jibbing is a different story). If your boots are tight and cause discomfort either immediately or by the end of the day, you bought the wrong boots. They don't fit your foot type (this is why we always tell people to try on the boot before you buy and make sure they fit regardless of steez status or brand). If they don't fit, tightening will cause "the pinch" (= bad blood circulation = cold & painful).
****in short, get rid of your DC Judge boots****

Cartels do have forward lean...no matter what... and tall highbacks. Not to mention they are stiff and wont flex. If you are riding at an awkward stance angle... and the forward lean is too much for you... you may feel discomfort as well. Check your forward lean, stance angle, and stance width.

Hopefully you get this all worked out and have the time of your life on the mountain.

If this helps and you would like to donate a balance board...PM me for my address.


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## Guest (Sep 5, 2007)

thanks - you say the capstrap does not pinch, then you say tightening WILL cause pinch. 
This seems a contradiction.
I believe the judge fits well. I have a wide foot. I did try them on before buying.
For comparison, I tried others - some felt too tight and some too loose.
FWIW I do suspect the lower foot and toe area may have loosened up since I bought them -
I don't know if it's too much - but I don't think so. I've only used them about 15 times. I even tried a Judge 1/2 size smaller which I felt was too small, but I could have been wrong. My feet are very wide.

Saying get rid of the boots seems a little harsh - I guess you mean try a different brand?

Why doesnt forward lean in a highback AID toeside turns? Why does a tall higback matter in a toeside turn? Why would either of these cause fatigue in toeside turns?

I also own Spy CAD bindings which are much stiffer than the cartels and my foot does somewhat better in them, but, I feel like I should be able to ride both without fatigue.

Thank again for your help!


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## Slaughterhouse (Aug 17, 2007)

Hmmm, I wasn't thinking about the Cartels being Cap straps...ooops. I was thinking toestraps because it took me half a season to figure out why my foot was killing me, lol.


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## Guest (Sep 5, 2007)

sorry guys - my last post was in response to JiveTalkinRobot's post!

aloha,

jeff



Slaughterhouse said:


> Hmmm, I wasn't thinking about the Cartels being Cap straps...ooops. I was thinking toestraps because it took me half a season to figure out why my foot was killing me, lol.


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## swmike (Aug 16, 2007)

People enter this topic with religion fervor... but I'll mention it anyway. Capstraps are not your friend. Most pro instructors I know have actually traded them for regular straps. Here's why - and it was completely true for me. The capstrap on Cartels (yea, I ride them too) cover and support your toes. And they supposedly pull your foot back more. Well, my foot is totally in the binding with or without capstraps - the ankle strap does that just fine. But the problem is this - when you lift your toes you aren't really getting the major power of that lift from your toes, but the muscles in your foot. So the capstrap isn't even over the major position to maximize your motion. Think it doesn't matter that much? OK - then ride your capstraps and be secure in knowing your foot is all the way back and your toes are in tight. But I really don't need my toes "tightly pushed in" - I need my foot without slop on the board so that's where I focus and thus... I use the good old fashion straps.

But but... Burton wouldn't invent and sell something that was worse than their previous stuff! (you say) Ah, have you been around long enough to know what BMC or SI means. Yea, they would. Had both - and both returned THREE times for warranty replacement.




jbeck said:


> thanks - you say the capstrap does not pinch, then you say tightening WILL cause pinch.
> This seems a contradiction.
> I believe the judge fits well. I have a wide foot. I did try them on before buying.
> For comparison, I tried others - some felt too tight and some too loose.
> ...


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## killclimbz (Aug 10, 2007)

swmike said:


> People enter this topic with religion fervor... but I'll mention it anyway. Capstraps are not your friend. Most pro instructors I know have actually traded them for regular straps. Here's why - and it was completely true for me. The capstrap on Cartels (yea, I ride them too) cover and support your toes. And they supposedly pull your foot back more. Well, my foot is totally in the binding with or without capstraps - the ankle strap does that just fine. But the problem is this - when you lift your toes you aren't really getting the major power of that lift from your toes, but the muscles in your foot. So the capstrap isn't even over the major position to maximize your motion. Think it doesn't matter that much? OK - then ride your capstraps and be secure in knowing your foot is all the way back and your toes are in tight. But I really don't need my toes "tightly pushed in" - I need my foot without slop on the board so that's where I focus and thus... I use the good old fashion straps.
> 
> But but... Burton wouldn't invent and sell something that was worse than their previous stuff! (you say) Ah, have you been around long enough to know what BMC or SI means. Yea, they would. Had both - and both returned THREE times for warranty replacement.


Alright man you want a fight? j/k. I actually find cap straps (Non Burton Variations) to work just fine for me. They are more comfortable and I found them to be just as repsonsive if not more so than a regular strap. Maybe it's because not only does it push your foot in (merits debatable)but it covers and pulls the front of your foot down. As soon as I start to initiate a turn it reacts...for me. Other people don't find this and hate the feel. So it's definitely not a definitive product for everyone.


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## Guest (Sep 5, 2007)

Nah I wasn't trying to be harsh at all... as far as the contradiction thing..

I said the Cartels won't cause the pinch when tightened...then the next paragraph was about the boots and improper fit...in the boots, which will cause the boots to pinch you...not the bindings. The boots may fit the overall foot more, but if there are pressure points..thats no good.

No contradiction there.

As far as the forward lean causing front foot, ankle, and shin "burn" that is very consistent with forward lean. Not intuitive I know... since it does help initiate toe side turns. You forget though, it puts your body in a aggressive position on your toes a majority of the time. When riding "flat" a lot more weight will be on the toe edge. Your knees will be bent and your ankles will have to support more. Your shins will be at an angle but forced to keep your body upright, causing stress. Get on your tip toes and get in a semi squating position (like you are about to jump)...this is the position your body will be in most of the time when snowboarding.

Ok it is 6:49am and I have to get to work...I shouldn't have posted this but you rubbed me the wrong way lol.

Only tryin to help bud.






jbeck said:


> thanks - you say the capstrap does not pinch, then you say tightening WILL cause pinch.
> This seems a contradiction.
> I believe the judge fits well. I have a wide foot. I did try them on before buying.
> For comparison, I tried others - some felt too tight and some too loose.
> ...


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## Slaughterhouse (Aug 17, 2007)

Okay, I'll throw this in to make the discussion even more complicated, lol. I have always had trouble riding park features (rails, boxes, etc). I found that if I rode with my toe straps undone and just use the ankle straps I was less "twitchy" and was a lot more comfortable on said features. Then I started hitting black diamonds with just the ankle straps and found it gave a very floaty feeling. Rather nice but takes a little getting used to, but you also get a lot of stunned looks. If I am riding in the mountains or need a more technical "feel", I strap both toe and ankle tight. I just stopped cranking the toestrap down as much as I used to.


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## Guest (Sep 5, 2007)

Slaughter...how do you build bankroll? In the bank section of your profile you have 103,474! AMAZING!


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## Guest (Sep 5, 2007)

Well I can't believe how much I'm learning!
So far, I think too much forward lean may be the main culprit.
Secondary to that, not putting enough weight on my front foot.
And lastly my boots may be a little too lose in the front. Maybe.

I don't think my stance or angles are so far off that it could be cause.
After all, the foot burn is a recent development, but it does coincide with going much faster and for much longer than I used to, and, using the cartels.

This winter, I'll try to determine the cause by:

Try the spy bindings - adjust for looseness/tightness/lean
Try the cartels - adjust for looseness/tightness/lean
Borrow/rent a differrent pair of boots
try narrower stance
try different angles

get professional help on the mountain!

Ideally it would be cool to get the foot burn again, then find out what makes it go away, but I'll settle just for the latter.

You guys have been great! Thanks and aloha!


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## Slaughterhouse (Aug 17, 2007)

Snowolf said:


> You ought to try my favorite little trick I did several times this season......While going off a kicker, learning to do a halfway decent Method, I would accidentally hit the ankle strap release ratchet. Landing and riding out was like driving a car with a half turn of play in the steering wheel!...:laugh: :laugh:


:laugh: Funny that you mention that! I was on a box when my Drake Matrix ankle strap came completely loose (a problem that Drake rectified by sending me ALL NEW straps, ratchets and hardware for the pair, totally free as well as the shipping...gotta love Drake!). I felt my ankle suddenly free and I just had this simking feeling of "Ohhh shiiiiiit....." before coming off the box. The trees were quite effective of slowing down my "trajectory" down the hill! I can't imagine that happening off a kicker


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## Slaughterhouse (Aug 17, 2007)

JiveTalkinRobot said:


> Slaughter...how do you build bankroll? In the bank section of your profile you have 103,474! AMAZING!


I think at the time I had about a 1000 points, so I bought a lottery ticket on this site and won. The bank gives you interest every couple of days so I bankrolled it all. Its kind of neat to watch the interest climb and I bought a few things with the points like a red colour for the user detail and italics. Too bad you can only buy 5 lottery tickets per lifetime!


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