# Snowboarding in decline think again it's skiing



## ridinbend (Aug 2, 2012)

Snow is in decline


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## Fielding (Feb 15, 2015)

Those are interesting numbers. I'd love to know how they are computed. I think that, at least where I go, there are slightly more skiers so the numbers feel right to me for wahatever that's worth. The part I find really interesting is the total number of peoe involved in both sports as a percentage of the popation. It seems really small. Probably more people are into professional wrestling or German shiza porn than snow sports. My guess is the numbers are concentrated in about 10 states. Or less. I love stuff like this.


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## poutanen (Dec 22, 2011)

Interesting that it looks like the total skier/rider numbers are about flat between 55-60 million/yr over the last 10 years.

Also interesting that ski/board shop sales are also relatively flat (where's this big decline that every local shop will tell you is happening?)

Interesting that internet sales have seen a steady increase over the same period. Probably due to more and more people being comfortable buying on the internet.

What's REALLY interesting is that with total hill visits steady, and total sales (shop + internet) going up, either the quantity purchased or the cost of goods is going up (or both).

One thing that always surprises me is how many people DON'T ski or snowboard. The city I live in is 45 minutes from an Olympic rocky mountain, 1:15 to Sunshine Village, 1:45 to Lake Louise. Less than 4 hours to the tallest resort in North America. Close to the "champagne powder highway". We have paradise in our backyards and many don't use it.


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## destroy (Dec 16, 2012)

I hear ya pouts.

Most people I know down here only go to Whistler to party. :shrug: I even know (and still meet) people from time to time who have lived there for years and have never been on the mountain for anything but sightseeing! 

My first introduction to alpine sports was my elementary school's ski trip every year to Seymour. More people need this kinda stuff! Definitely in the fonder memories of growing up for me. Starting to snowboard as an adult brought back a lot of those good feelings.


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## Aztrailerhawk (May 4, 2014)

*Surprised by the ratio. 9 to 7.4?*



larrytbull said:


> just looking at this years SIA fact sheet
> SIA Snow Sports Fact Sheet - SnowSports Retailers - SnowSports Industries America
> 
> Seems that skiers (alpine) numbered just under 11 million in 2009/2010 season
> ...



Really? 9 skiers for 7.4 snowboarders? Would have guessed the skiers outnumbered us way more. My home mountain is Loveland, gonna count a little next time. Maybe we just have more skiers there. Don't ride enough other places to compare away from LUV.

Or maybe I'm just looking at this wrong, I'm a pretty bad mather.


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## Bones (Feb 24, 2008)

poutanen said:


> I
> 
> One thing that always surprises me is how many people DON'T ski or snowboard.


I'm shocked by how many people don't go outside no matter where they live. House to car to office to gym to store to home Rinse and repeat :facepalm3:

I'd be curious to see the comparison to other outdoor winter activities. Is everything declining overall or just these more expensive activities?

The population is aging as the baby boomers near retirement, but I'm not sure if that it means that people are becoming less active or if people are simply switching to other things.


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## tokyo_dom (Jan 7, 2013)

If you look at it the other way i grew up 10 minutes walk from the beach, in an area that is renowned for good breaks. My highschool even offered surfing in the choice of sports you take part in.

But i have only been on a surfboard twice in my life.

Now i live 1-2hrs away from the beach and i am thinking of taking up surfing this summer lol


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## jtg (Dec 11, 2012)

Yeah, I looked at the data last year and came to the same conclusion. Snowboarding isn't dying, and neither are local shops. What actually appears to be happening is that people are spending a fixed amount locally, but buying extra stuff that they would have never bought otherwise, online. So, online sales represent a new market, and are not actually cannibalizing the local market, but supplementing it.


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## BurtonAvenger (Aug 14, 2007)

Local shops are dying and SIA is helping put a nail in that coffin. As per visits it ebbs and flows.


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## rambob (Mar 5, 2011)

ridinbend said:


> Snow is in decline


x2. :blahblah: Shred why U can!


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## Argo (Feb 25, 2010)

I know a bunch of people that live slopeside around here that don't ski or ride. The drink wine and chill.


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## lab49232 (Sep 13, 2011)

poutanen said:


> Also interesting that ski/board shop sales are also relatively flat (where's this big decline that every local shop will tell you is happening?)
> 
> Interesting that internet sales have seen a steady increase over the same period. Probably due to more and more people being comfortable buying on the internet.
> 
> What's REALLY interesting is that with total hill visits steady, and total sales (shop + internet) going up, either the quantity purchased or the cost of goods is going up (or both).


A flat industry is a dead industry. Especially as brands push for increased orders every year and lower or eliminate discounts if you don't meet growth quotas. Lower discounts and flat sales mean less profitability.

Also yes sales have switched greatly to online. Also these numbers only reflect shops who report to SIA. Many shops do not to keep secrecy. This is where much discrepancy comes from


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## Blaze182 (Sep 7, 2009)

Cost could be a factor, i.e. one weekend in an Aus peak cost $1k. Expensive for 2 days...


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## Nocturnal7x (Mar 6, 2015)

Blaze182 said:


> Cost could be a factor, i.e. one weekend in an Aus peak cost $1k. Expensive for 2 days...


Definitely. Many mountains, if you are going with someone could be $300 + rentals + lessons and then you don't know if you are going to like it. Plus most people don't live close to a mountain so its a bit of a trek. 

But I guess compared to vegas its probably cheap and look at how many people do that. 

Snow sports probably are not in many peoples minds as a thing they could do. I was in scouts, so I got introduced to everything from walking in the woods to white water rafting to horseback riding to sailing (and snowboarding of course). 

If you don't have a friend who does it, chances are you never will. 

On the money thing again, I got into snowboarding over skiing because I found the equipment to be cheaper, or at least there is more cheap equipment available, also turns out I liked it more so I stuck with it. That could be a factor in its growth.


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## jjb7733 (Feb 1, 2014)

I grew up just 2 minutes from the now defunct Pines Peak ski area in Valparaiso, IN, (with a whopping 151 vertical feet) and never went skiing or riding as a kid, not until I moved to Colorado a year and a half ago. My parents always told me we couldn't afford it even though I always wanted too, and I have a good bit of Norwegian in me! I'm kind of glad it worked out that way though because it gives me something to get really excited about as an adult, and maybe it wouldn't be as exciting if I have been doing it for 30 years? I wish all the skiers would switch to snowboarding now though, so we could have a lot less moguls :hairy:


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## deagol (Mar 26, 2014)

poutanen said:


> ....We have paradise in our backyards and many don't use it.


if they did, though, the crowding could be insane...
count your blessings..


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## mosf88 (Mar 1, 2013)

There is definitely a shift in people's interests and spending patterns. Not just in snow sports.

For example Little League is going through a crisis. Many community leagues are dying because so many kids are playing on travel teams. Travel leagues are expensive to be a part of. Even in Chicago the training is almost year-round. Hard to fit skiing/boarding in with that. LaCrosse has taken off big here too... again very expensive.

I could go on but the point is that many kids' activities are more expensive and time consuming than in the past. As you take kids out of the pipeline you take families out and eventually adults. Obviously there are other causes... but with two teens these come to mind for me.

And ironically enough snowboarding actually isn't that expensive if you know how to do it on the cheap. Used equipment isn't expensive, and its fine to learn on. Most local hills have discount nights, at least in SE Wisconsin. But that is not apparent to most people.

And snowboarding does seem to be sliding off the radar compared to skiing. Last night I was in a craft store looking for some 3-D snowboarding stickers to dress up my son's birthday gift. They had a couple of varieties of 3-D skiing stickers but nothing for boarders...


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## CassMT (Mar 14, 2013)

must be some 99% skier resorts out there skewing the average, if i had to eyeball it i'd say we are near 50/50, esp when it's busy. it'll be interesting to see how these numbers change as the whole thing takes a dump


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## Argo (Feb 25, 2010)

CassMT said:


> must be some 99% skier resorts out there skewing the average, if i had to eyeball it i'd say we are near 50/50, esp when it's busy. it'll be interesting to see how these numbers change as the whole thing takes a dump


cost effects a lot of people that live in the Vail valley(down in Eagle/Gypsum/Edwards). They can barely afford to live here much less $4000 for there families passes plus gear....

We are skier heavy here when it is crowded, probably 75+% skier. It is probably 50/50 with local people here. When its crowded on Vail or breck, that's 25,000 people.


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## CassMT (Mar 14, 2013)

that's interesting, when we get busy it's the canadian boarders coming down that push it more equal. locals are probably 75% skier, ruff guess


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## f00bar (Mar 6, 2014)

The flying potato was a huge marketing win for 2 olympics in a row. Unfortunately as hard as they tried to make him meaningful this time around he failed to live up to their expectations. And they didn't have a back up plan.

Snowsports in general don't advertise the sport. At best if they are feeling rich they'll do some radio adverts around here. Every 4 years is their golden opportunity and in Sochi they dropped the ball big time.

The industry should have pooled it's money and flooded the broadcast with segments showing snowboarding as a great family recreation, not an extreme sport.


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## BurtonAvenger (Aug 14, 2007)

These are two of the most relevant articles about what is going on in snowboarding right now in my opinion. 

The Snowboard Renaissance

Mike Ranquet’s Hump Day History Lesson

Snowboarding is finally facing its aging identity crisis, just not at a speed it needs to be. 

Global warming/climate change is another huge factor. We'll be feeling the effects of the California drought for years and that whole Northwest lack of a winter is going to hurt next years numbers. 

That said because Colorado and specifically Breckenridge had such an absurd snow year last year our visits are actually double what they were last year. Almost every weekend Summit County is at 100% occupancy for all holidays this season and our spring break bookings are up 80% over last year. Next year I think we'll see a slight decline because the snow has been "average". 

Now if the snow cooperates next year and the gas prices stay below 4 dollars I'm sure we'll see a rise in traffic in certain areas, although those that missed out this year due to the shitty snow year will have less confidence going into next season. So this could be a wash. 

But this is the ebb and flow of participation. What really needs to happen is what happened in the mid to late 80's where companies/resorts/travel agencies were marketing the "lifestyle" aspect. That is what gets people excited to go spend money and time doing the winter sports activities. I feel like currently the correct marketing to implore the aging snowboard demographic (28 to 44) to come back and relive the "lifestyle" is hindering growth or regrowth/retention.


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## f00bar (Mar 6, 2014)

Some interesting stats are the % by age participating in each.

They basically flip flop from 18-44. For whatever reason retention of those still doing it is higher for skiing as they get older. Probably because 37 is the average life expectancy of a snow carnie.


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## deagol (Mar 26, 2014)

I like this quote from the 1st article

"_Sure the numbers in some jackass’s financial ledger may suggest that snowboarding is in decline, but we’re just trimming the fat_. "

maybe this one from the 2nd article too:

"_I think one of the problems with the media is that they’re trying to mass market snowboarding, rather than marketing snowboarding to people who actually snowboard."_


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## wrathfuldeity (Oct 5, 2007)

So BA, do I’z gets to be a geezerily poster child? Provoking articles. 

A couple of geezerily things:
You got to market to the older folks, they have the disposable cash and perhaps able to get the schedules to do some quality play time. But they are smart and not enamored with the glitzy, sparkly fairy dust. 

I hazard to say, I am part of the last generation that ate real food, actually played outside and did things for themselves…because we didn’t have walmarts and Costco, there was only 1-3 channels on TV and no computers or webz and there was no daycare/helicopter parent programing of endless “enrichment” for their boutique fucking trophy kids. So if you didn’t play outside…you were a frickin cripple. And there was not disposable shit of go to the store and just buy another piece of junk…it was fix it or make it yourself and make it work.

I got into snowboarding at 44, cause it looked fun, I was outside and playing…it was an absolute fucking blast…killing myself and brought back a lot of memories of being a kid. So as a in “mature dad”…I thinks to myself…gotta to do this with my kids…and hopefully the grandkids. Thus if snowboarding needs to make abit of a marketing adjustment toward the “outside family experience”…just to get folks outside and realize there is fun to be had. But really its just being outside, having fun with family/friends…and not what is the new crazy turd in the basket. And this needs to be done to “sustain” the numbers coming into the sport. In reality most skiers and boarders got introduced by family or friends…not because of the “flying tater tot”. 

Sure I’d love to be able to do crazy tricks, drop big lines…but I now have knowledge of “self-preservation” and experience...smartz enough to know to say “no thanks…so I chose to live to ride another day.” But I am very thankful and appreciative to just get out there and have a sweet time (get off my ass cause the doc says, share some family/friend time and bring in a new generation into the snowy life). So I don’t mind sharing the experience with others. It’s a really about a different bar…not extreme shit…but a sweet time.


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## CassMT (Mar 14, 2013)

makes me think of what it be like when the whole thing crashes and burns, that'll trim the fat. when the chairs all stop for good (if the uphill traffic is any indicator) we'll be back to 90/10


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## neni (Dec 24, 2012)

lab49232 said:


> A flat industry is a dead industry


and this principle is the origin of soooo many problems...


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## lab49232 (Sep 13, 2011)

neni said:


> and this principle is the origin of soooo many problems...


True but in the snow industry where discounts for shops from manufacturers depend on growth it means as a shop sales flatten out they spend more and more each year on the same product, as a result despite selling the same number in year two as year one they will make less money. Then year 3 of stagnant can mean less margin again. So while they ordered product at wholesale with a 7% discount in year one and still struggled to make 35% margin (which is an accurate number) and by year 3 they no longer get the 7% discount and now margin drops to 27%, well that's not sustainable.


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## BurtonAvenger (Aug 14, 2007)

wrathfuldeity said:


> So BA, do I’z gets to be a geezerily poster child? Provoking articles.
> 
> A couple of geezerily things:
> You got to market to the older folks, they have the disposable cash and perhaps able to get the schedules to do some quality play time. But they are smart and not enamored with the glitzy, sparkly fairy dust.
> ...


Ignoring the war flashbacks of your childhood, you pretty much nailed it. 

The best way I've always looked at it is, if you want to grow it's investing in your already present consumer base. The "ride with a friend" concept. 

You're right that families that do snowsports introduce their kids, grandkids, etc. etc. into it and it builds from there. While people might watch Art of Filler or Stubby Potato in the Stunt Ditch and like it, they relate more to the local rider that does that one intense toeside carve around them, that blind backside 180 over a roller, or the guy that pops a slow sign. That whole "I can do this" moment is what makes people want to snowboard. 

Unfortunately about 95ish through 2002 the marketing to the youth worked and it got the kids to go, well gee dad I want to try snowboarding. Dad's over there skiing and going well fuck at least it gets him out of the house. So that group grew immensely. Then they went to college, got older, had careers/families, and now where are they? Starting to come back to snowboarding because they have the income to do so. Time to welcome them back because they will be snowboarding's baby boomers and the ones that bring little Timmy and Tawnya Shredder with them. 

But at the same time pick up any big magazine there's probably 1 maybe 2 shots of guys over 30 in there. It's marketed still at the younger generation, because "it worked in the past" is the answer. There's too many people as Brad Steward says in this interview Brad Steward On His Move To NEFF | The Board Press on 'cruise control'. 

So on top of a generation that wasn't prepared to look past their own immediate future we have an older generation coming back. So these two worlds are colliding and it's just a clusterfuck. 

Now as far as shops go. Any shop worth a damn will creatively think outside the box on what it's going to take to get people to spend money at their store. If you're not pushing new brands and more soft goods than hard goods, you're going to die. The margins will kill you as well as the Internet and direct sales.


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## f00bar (Mar 6, 2014)

lab49232 said:


> True but in the snow industry where discounts for shops from manufacturers depend on growth it means as a shop sales flatten out they spend more and more each year on the same product, as a result despite selling the same number in year two as year one they will make less money. Then year 3 of stagnant can mean less margin again. So while they ordered product at wholesale with a 7% discount in year one and still struggled to make 35% margin (which is an accurate number) and by year 3 they no longer get the 7% discount and now margin drops to 27%, well that's not sustainable.


If they wanted to get into any easy business they should have opened a quickie mart.

If they want to stay in this business then they could act like they give a crap and stop leaving money on the table because of crap service. An example? I was in a shop and asked about price matching, incentive to buy, passes, blah blah. Was basically told the price is the price, they have no way of sweetening it. Ok, cool, doesn't hurt to ask.

A few weeks later I'm in there and the dudes buddy pops in and basically hollars, 'Dude, have any of those Mt Snow passes left?' Guess what? Passes appear.

Now give me a pair of free passes with a sale of a board and I'm all in. Or at least something to cover the taxes, be it an overstock hat or socks from 4 years ago that is taking up space, or whatever.

Just saying, being an open shop is the easy part. Try working for some sales.


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## BurtonAvenger (Aug 14, 2007)

f00bar said:


> If they wanted to get into any easy business they should have opened a quickie mart.
> 
> If they want to stay in this business then they could act like they give a crap and stop leaving money on the table because of crap service. An example? I was in a shop and asked about price matching, incentive to buy, passes, blah blah. Was basically told the price is the price, they have no way of sweetening it. Ok, cool, doesn't hurt to ask.
> 
> ...


At the same time I have to ask how much money have you spent with them?

It's like the shop I work at. We throw people a bone more than we should, but at the same time we throw it to the people we know will be back. 

Case in point, there's this guy from Florida that comes in about once a week and drops between 200 and 2,000 dollars. Yeah he's our favorite customer, but he's as some would say a gaper. 

Now dude has easily made our shop over 10 grand in the last three months and that's being generously low on the estimate. At the same time there's these shit stain snow carnies that come in here and demand a "locals discount" or "mountain employee discount" or want more more more. They haven't spent shit with us. And in my opinion a true local isn't someone that moved here mid October, lives in staff housing, and will leave April 21st (day after the mountain closes). Why do they deserve a discount? They don't. 

So the one night Florida guy comes in with his brother, girlfriend, and like 8 other people. Doesn't try anything on just grabs the new stuff in his size off the shelves and throws it on the counter. I ring him up, throw him a nice discount on various things, he pays, and leaves. At the same time one of these "locals" is in there and first words out of his mouth are "Yo Dawg what's the locs discount" to which I respond "nothing". He gets butt-hurt points out I hooked up that guy and I respond with "that guy spends a couple grand a month in here he's on the preferred customer list". The kid flips out some more and gets all bent out of shape about it and keeps pushing for a discount, mind you he's never spent a fucking cent with me or the shop. He doesn't support us, yet claims he does. So after all his fussing he buys some pants and leaves. You know what? Haven't seen that kid since but I guarantee now that we're doing spring sales he'll be in bitching that our mark downs aren't enough for "a true loc dog like himself". 

So I ask, have you spent money with them previously? Because if you have and they don't throw you a bone fuck em. But if you haven't and expect something for nothing, then fuck you, you don't support them. There's a complete sense of entitlement going around right now that people believe they are owed something for merely walking into a store. 

That said I do agree that there's a whole generation of people working in shops that don't understand that you aren't selling a product, you're selling a lifestyle. You have to stoke the people on the lifestyle and experience. When you come to buy from me and our shop you have three guys that cumulatively have over 35 years of snowboard experience. When you deal with me personally you have a guy that has ridden more product than most people could imagine and I can tell people that with all the products we sell and don't sell. It's that knowledge coupled with the experience we provide that has us outselling all the other shops in town. Which if any of you know, Breck is not a town devoid of snowboard shops and being a new shop it's an uphill battle to compete against shops that have been there since 1986.


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## larrytbull (Oct 30, 2013)

wrathfuldeity said:


> So BA, do I’z gets to be a geezerily poster child? Provoking articles.
> 
> A couple of geezerily things:
> You got to market to the older folks, they have the disposable cash and perhaps able to get the schedules to do some quality play time. But they are smart and not enamored with the glitzy, sparkly fairy dust.
> ...



I am a bit younger (6 years i think) than you Wrath, but i am in same boat.
I bought a place in the hills. my kid wants to do snow sports

First thought was to try skiing. In my mind board was for kids, too extreme.

kid and i try skiing a couple times it was ok, but I have bad knees
I talked to guy in ski/snowboard shop telling him how I would pay anything for comfortable boots, and got around to discussing knees.
He told me NO to skis, get on a Board.(the shop was run by boarders I was really? board better for knees.... hmmm
kid saw a snowboard and said i want to try it. we signed up and since them I have been buying gear like crazy, and can't stop new board/bindings for each of us every year, GoPros (have sucker/gear Whore written on my face) even bought my daughter a board.

So totally agree market to the cash. Show us old geezers how those knees are better stationary on a board rather than flailing around

make $$$$


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## BurtonAvenger (Aug 14, 2007)

larrytbull said:


> I am a bit younger (6 years i think) than you Wrath, but i am in same boat.
> I bought a place in the hills. my kid wants to do snow sports
> 
> First thought was to try skiing. In my mind board was for kids, too extreme.
> ...


It's guys like you that keep the industry afloat, you deserve a commendation.


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## f00bar (Mar 6, 2014)

larrytbull said:


> I am a bit younger (6 years i think) than you Wrath, but i am in same boat.
> I bought a place in the hills. my kid wants to do snow sports
> 
> First thought was to try skiing. In my mind board was for kids, too extreme.
> ...


This actually goes back to my whole Olympics failure, and more so X Games association that once boosted the sport now I think hinders it.

The only exposure snowboarding gets is people doing halfpipes and 50' jumps. Nothing in there screams "hey its totally fun and safe for your kids" or "it's a great way to spend time as a family, even if you're over 25"

There is a pretty sizable percentage of the population that believes that snowboarding never leaves the park.


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## lab49232 (Sep 13, 2011)

f00bar said:


> This actually goes back to my whole Olympics failure, and more so X Games association that once boosted the sport now I think hinders it.
> 
> The only exposure snowboarding gets is people doing halfpipes and 50' jumps. Nothing in there screams "hey its totally fun and safe for your kids" or "it's a great way to spend time as a family, even if you're over 25"
> 
> There is a pretty sizable percentage of the population that believes that snowboarding never leaves the park.


The groups doing it right are actually state tourism groups. Utah, California, Oregon and Montana have all actually put out spectacular ad campaigns promoting snow sports and tourism to their state. Unfortunently most of these campaigns are targeted towards people who already participate but they focus more on the fun of the sport, the beauty of being in the mountains, and the family experience. 

Now if only we had a group like Diary Farmers Of America to create a got milk campaign for snow sports...


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## KansasNoob (Feb 24, 2013)

Got Snow?


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## jdang307 (Feb 6, 2011)

wrathfuldeity said:


> So BA, do I’z gets to be a geezerily poster child? Provoking articles.
> 
> A couple of geezerily things:
> You got to market to the older folks, they have the disposable cash and perhaps able to get the schedules to do some quality play time. But they are smart and not enamored with the glitzy, sparkly fairy dust.
> ...


I got in when I was 33, now 37. This guy is my hero:






My son is almost 1. I can't fucking wait until he's 3. He's getting on a snowboard at the Burton Riglet Park at Bear Mountain as soon as they will accept him.

My wife is not a hardcore boarder, but she shops like it's nobody's business (who has 5 strollers? We do). Little Dang and I will be supporting snowboarding until I can't do it anymore. Yes I'm a weekday desk jockey, self-employed professional, but enjoy new boards every year :jumping1: I'm a gear whore.


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## neni (Dec 24, 2012)

wrathfuldeity said:


> A couple of geezerily things:
> You got to market to the older folks, they have the disposable cash and perhaps able to get the schedules to do some quality play time.


Bought more boards last 2 seasons than in all the years before together. If I enter most local shops, I feel bit like a dinosaur. The kids working there - often younger than my first board - have hardly experience to offer, only learned by heart marketing slogans :blahblah:. Only shops that seem to be "grown-up" are two rather specialized on splits. Guys there ride n _know_ the stuff they sell. IMO, that's the key to if I re-visit a shop. 

Oh, and yes, the bones. And motivation. Uncomplicated immediate replacement of broken ratchets is worth more than the price saved compared to online buy. "Ah, you like that lense better than the standard one in that frame? Wait a sec, I'll check the replacenent lenses, we can swap 'em". Zack, $ spent on a goggle I actually didn't _need_. "Your boot hasn't arrived yet, sorry. Oh, you wanted to ride this weekend? Wait a sec, I'll look for boot you can have till yours arrive", K, I'll forgive them that they're bit chaotic and messed up the order. "Sweet board ain't it? Don't know that profile? Wanna try? Oh, we ain't no test board of this one. Take the one out of the shelf. You don't have channel bindings? Wait a sec, what's your size, there's a sweet new stap system on those over there". Board was crap, but bindings were bought. 

But for this, sellers need to be a little active. "Wait a sec, I'll check, I do I go I search" instead of the lazy don't disturb my break "no we haven't" answer makes a huge difference. I'm sure, local shops with active knowledgeable sellers will always have a place. It's the chaff that is sorted out now after the hype time.


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## f00bar (Mar 6, 2014)

lab49232 said:


> The groups doing it right are actually state tourism groups. Utah, California, Oregon and Montana have all actually put out spectacular ad campaigns promoting snow sports and tourism to their state. Unfortunently most of these campaigns are targeted towards people who already participate but they focus more on the fun of the sport, the beauty of being in the mountains, and the family experience.
> 
> Now if only we had a group like Diary Farmers Of America to create a got milk campaign for snow sports...


They could. I get they don't have that kind of pull, but for some reason you have an industry that won't pool it's resources together to help the greater cause.

I get that as an industry it's pretty splintered. You have the resorts, the small mountains, and the hard/soft goods guys to get on the same page to make a concerted effort. But they really need to do a better job of it as they all do have a symbiotic relationship with each other.


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## chomps1211 (Mar 30, 2011)

KansasNoob said:


> Got Snow?










Never in a million years would I have guessed I'd get a chance to use the same meme twice in the same week on two different threads! :laugh:


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## rafavilardo (Feb 21, 2014)

You guys gave me so much hope! I explain.
Since I was born in Brazil, lived all my life there with no snow at all until moved to US, I keep thinking how can I lived my whole life (29 years) without snowboarding. I was always trying to beat the clock of life, always thinking that I started this fucking sport so late (2 years ago - I'm 31 now) and not knowing for how long I'll be able to do it because I'll get old and (maybe) won't be able to practice (knees, legs and all body problems that come with age). 

You guys have shown me that it is possible to ride for at least 10 more years and that I don't need to rush like crazy to enjoy the time lost.

Thanks guys! Keep up the good work!


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## Argo (Feb 25, 2010)

larrytbull said:


> I am a bit younger (6 years i think) than you Wrath, but i am in same boat.
> I bought a place in the hills. my kid wants to do snow sports
> 
> First thought was to try skiing. In my mind board was for kids, too extreme.
> ...


Im the same way. I am quite a bit younger though. learned to ride at 29/30, I am 38 now. We rented on our first day and purchased a board immediately after. We did the vacation snowboarding for 4 years then moved to the mountains. We spend way to much money on snow sports(summer sports too). 3 of us with new gear every year. 

My wife gets a few new outfits a season, new boots, board and bindings. I get one new outfit, 2 new pairs of boots, a few boards and bindings. My son gets a lot of free shit now but we still spend money on stuff every year. Him getting free gear from some various places saves us a shit load of money. We buy all our outer wear locally, usually find goggles and helmets online. We only shop at the one private owned local shop in town that is remaining, shops in Summit(mainly MSO) or shop online if they don't have what we want. We never asked for any discounts locally but after a few months people realize your living in the area and take the effort to care..... 

When we are at a different mountain we will always stop in and buy stuff from local shops. I will probably stop in BAs shop just so my son can kick him in the shins and make fun of him..... Then we will buy some shit.


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## BurtonAvenger (Aug 14, 2007)

^ Your kid isn't big enough to take me yet. I can keep him down for a little while longer, but his day of triumph over me is coming.


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## ThredJack (Mar 18, 2014)

I always shop at a local shop. All my gear is from there(except my goggles, but those were a birthday present, so I can't complain that my parents went to Sports Authority). I sometimes go in, and try not to spend any money(rarely works), just so I can see the stuff I might want in person, before I eventually wind up going in and just buying it.

I look at online shops, just to see what's out there, THEN go into my local shop to see if they have it. I might order say a jacket, if I was set on a particular one, but no local shops have it or can get it.

In fact, I think I'll make a trip tomorrow.... it's going to be 50, so I might need a hoodie to ride in.


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## trpa_ec (Jan 22, 2012)

It seems to me that older people returning to snowboarding now that their kids are old enough to ski/snowboard and families in general should be more of a growth opportunity for the industry than it is now. Other than Burton with their Riglet Park and their broader range of kid specific gear, I really don't see snowboard companies marketing much at all to families of young kids even though most produce kids boards. 

Maybe my view is myopic because that's the situation I am in now. I used to snowboard a little over the years but never spent much time at it and never spent the time to get decent at riding. However, once I had a family and my kids became old enough to ski/ride, we decided to start them in skiing to have something to do outdoors in the winter. I ended up returning to snowboarding as a result. I got much more into riding than I'd been before and I ended up convincing some friends to return to skiing and riding with their kids. 

It ended up being about 7 families putting their kids into skiing and returning to riding and skiing. One of my friends who I got back into riding ended up getting a Vermont house as a seasonal rental and hosts other families there every weekend. Through hosting people at the house, he has also got a bunch of his friends back into skiing with their kids. Another friend I got back into skiing through his son is going to be buying a condo at our local resort. So just one old guy getting super stoked about snowboarding because of his kids has snowballed into a big group of families getting back into the sport after long hiatuses along with all the new gear, lift tickets, hotels and rentals that entails. It's mostly skiing though because I feel like the snowboard industry has little if any interest in marketing to people like us. For example, skiing has the junior development programs and the USASA racing programs. Snowboarding doesn't have as clear a support and development path for kids.

As far as local shops go, brick and mortar stores are suffering in nearly every business not just snow sports because of online stores. The guys at my local store are decent folks and I support them by buying there when I can but it's actually tough to find inventory there. As an old guy who is interested mostly in stiffer freeride/all-mountain stuff, it's hard to find stuff. All my local stores stock the higher demand park and all-mountain stuff. I went to the local shops before the season began to get stiff bindings and a NS Chairman but none were stocking or even ordering that kind of stuff. I finally found Chargers in a big shop in NYC and had to order the Chairman online. I ended up buying helmets and gloves at the local shops. I also ended up buying a board there this week. In part because the deal was good but also because the salesman was a super good guy.


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## Argo (Feb 25, 2010)

I agree with you overall but USASA is the united states of America SNOWBOARD and free skiing association.. It is loaded with snowboarders....

Also look up ifsa, they have an east coast snowboard freeride series. I like them less every year though, run by some douche bag skiers


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## trpa_ec (Jan 22, 2012)

Sorry I meant USSA not USASA. I got the initials wrong.


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## tokyo_dom (Jan 7, 2013)

Getting back to the Skis vs Snowboards, i have a prediction, make of it what you will.

Right now i hear that freestyle skiing is massive with kids, and that more parkrats are on skis than snowboards, because their dads snowboard and thats not cool. Over here in Japan its not quite so dramatic, with more young boarders than skiers for sure. But the skiers in the parks here still go WAY bigger than 99% of the snowboarders.

I had a think about this and my theory is that for a young adrenalin addict, skis may seem cooler than snowboards. But on the mountain, skiers really only have carving or moguls to entertain themselves with. They cant ollie, press, or butter... So they head straight to the park, and hit the big kickers, the rails and whatever. And they do it over and over, and they get really damn good. And i see it with all of these long T wearing free skiers. Basically sitting down on their skis straightlining to the park, hitting the jumps, and then straightlining back to the lift.

Thats all fine and in the end you will see more and more crazy extreme skiers.

But what happens when these guys hit their 30s and the dangers of the park mean you dont want to hit the L line anymore? Snowboarding has all sorts of flatground fun you can have, ollies and butters, and some of the most fun i have is on the little jumps. Boarder Park rats that i see are usually doing other stuff before/after the park - stuff you can still look good doing when you are 40-50 or older.

So while freestyle skiing seems to be taking off at the moment, i predict that they will see a slump when those younger kids grow up and realise that all they can do is cruise leisurely down the mountain in their 80's one piece ski suit and racing sunglasses. It is the same slump that hit snowboarders that got hooked on the adrenalin side of our sport. But the difference is that non-park snowboarding can be insanely fun and *still look good*, something i cant see with Ski's

Ebbs and flows. Snowboarding will never 'die', its just in an ebb


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## Argo (Feb 25, 2010)

trpa_ec said:


> Sorry I meant USSA got the initials wrong.


Same deal, they also have progression but no one is allowed to obtain a ussa competition license until 15(if I remember right), doesn't matter what you slide on. 

My son was to young to race this year with ussa but still decided to race USASA. 

The ski development programs in general are way better than snowboarding programs. They have also been around for decades longer.... the racing or competition series are quite a bit different from development programs though


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## david_z (Dec 14, 2009)

BurtonAvenger said:


> These are two of the most relevant articles about what is going on in snowboarding right now in my opinion.
> 
> The Snowboard Renaissance
> 
> Mike Ranquet’s Hump Day History Lesson


Never thought I'd see the day... but yeah, Yobeat fucking killed it with both of those. The Ranquet piece, especially.


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## Mystery2many (Aug 14, 2013)

BurtonAvenger said:


> It's like the shop I work at.


What's the name of your shop? Headed to Breck after I get off for the weekend. Do you guys have any pipe gloves or warm day gloves for women (celtec perferably). And stomp insoles? wanna try those out. 

Steamboat has a shit selection for snowboarders. Powder Tools is the only good option.


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## Argo (Feb 25, 2010)

Those articles were great. I disagree somewhat with marketing towards me. The movies and magazines with their extremes get me pumped up to go ride. I have watched the same movies hundreds of.times and still get excited seeing 110' backcountry booters or crazy urban stuff. I'll never do either of these things but they get me excited about snowboarding. I do like to read articles about boarding though and I would prefer them to be written in an adult fashion.


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## larrytbull (Oct 30, 2013)

Argo said:


> Those articles were great. I disagree somewhat with marketing towards me. The movies and magazines with their extremes get me pumped up to go ride. I have watched the same movies hundreds of.times and still get excited seeing 110' backcountry booters or crazy urban stuff. I'll never do either of these things but they get me excited about snowboarding. I do like to read articles about boarding though and I would prefer them to be written in an adult fashion.


For me, the marketing that would work.
would show kid's and I riding as a family. with a short bit about 
how snowboarding has something for everyone
cruising the groomers, park, bombing....
the other bit of marketing that would speak to me, are products that help me enjoy the sport even though the body is not always willing.

products like flow/gnu/k2 rear entry bindings
and any other comfort/convienience items
talk to me about comfort of boot. how boa helps me not have to tie up boots.

Boards, that help me run the groomers with ease and not catch edge

Camera's 
that help me document the fun that we are having

helmets that are comfy and MIPS type of protection so I don't worry about kids, or myself on snow

Pads, that protect on thos (infrequent falls )

then compare that to a flailing skier doing an epic crash with knees going in each direction
how uncomfortable ski boots are, and that stupid down up stairs walk when in them .....



things I care about
:hairy::hairy:


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## Argo (Feb 25, 2010)

I agree there needs to be more in the middle but definitely not getting rid of the book ends.


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## f00bar (Mar 6, 2014)

I agree with Larry here. XGames and Olympics did their purpose, exposure. The problem is they have pigeon holed snowboarding in the eyes of the general public into an extreme sport. The problem with extreme sports? Extremely low numbers of parents thinking it's a great idea for their little darling to take up.

Skiing has hundreds of years of people knowing that you can go out and just cruise around and have fun as a completely recreational sport without doing a downhill or slalom race. Everyone knows that.


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## snowklinger (Aug 30, 2011)

f00bar said:


> I agree with Larry here. XGames and Olympics did their purpose, exposure. The problem is they have pigeon holed snowboarding in the eyes of the general public into an extreme sport. The problem with extreme sports? *Extremely low numbers of parents thinking it's a great idea for their little darling to take up.
> *
> *Skiing has hundreds of years of people knowing that you can go out and just cruise around and have fun as a completely recreational sport without doing a downhill or slalom race. Everyone knows that.*




What they don't know is how many average groomer cruisers die on a tree every year at Keystone.


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## f00bar (Mar 6, 2014)

snowklinger said:


> [/B]
> 
> What they don't know is how many average groomer cruisers die on a tree every year at Keystone.


But what they do know is that just about every snowboard video out there has it's obligatory nasty stitches and hospital trip cringe worthy crash.

And I'm not saying these are bad things and should be stopped. What I'm saying is they are great at hooking the kids. But kids are poor, and kids don't drive themselves to the mountain. And more importantly kids are singular, grab a family and you are talking real money generation for the industry.


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## jdang307 (Feb 6, 2011)

Argo said:


> Those articles were great. I disagree somewhat with marketing towards me. The movies and magazines with their extremes get me pumped up to go ride. I have watched the same movies hundreds of.times and still get excited seeing 110' backcountry booters or crazy urban stuff. I'll never do either of these things but they get me excited about snowboarding. I do like to read articles about boarding though and I would prefer them to be written in an adult fashion.


Different strokes for different folks. Those extreme videos were cool for a little but to be honest I get bored of them. Things that get me amped up to ride are pros riding resorts and ripping the shit out of them. I'll never be that good but it gives me the illusion I can hit that shit. Small jumps, side hits, etc. Not 50-100 foot jumps but a pro buttering up a small jump and then doing a little spin off of it gets me amped ... even if I might not ever achieve that. 


Of course you get to follow your son around and you guys get amazing days in. I'm waiting for my son to be old enough and pray he'll want to go all the time even though it's 2.5 hours away I'll be able to get 30+ days in a year hopefully. For now I'm the weekend warrior


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## Argo (Feb 25, 2010)

True, living by the mountains kind of skews my perspective. I got to make laps with herds of pros last week and it was definitely cool watching their park lines. 

I am going to go ride for a couple hours now and hit the hottub....


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## ThredJack (Mar 18, 2014)

I don't think we should completely stop marketing the extreme side of snowboarding, but having the family friendly stuff is not a bad idea. 

Show people that snowboarding has a range, we're not all throwing down triple corks in the park. In fact I'd wage only about 5%(or less) of riders can actually even do a triple even if they wanted to. That's what people see on TV, and they think that that's snowboarding. It is, but that's only one side of it.

I have friends who watch snowboarding in the Olympics and XGames, and tell me they'd love to try it if it wasn't for all the jumping and flipping. They don't seem to realize that you don't have to do that stuff. You can simply ride down the mountain. I have to explain this to them, and sometimes even show them videos of people just riding groomers and shit.

Hell I still have to explain to my family that I'm not even attempting that shit. I did a front flip once, and it was NOT on purpose.


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## poutanen (Dec 22, 2011)

ThredJack said:


> Show people that snowboarding has a range, we're not all throwing down triple corks in the park. In fact I'd wage only about 5%(or less) of riders can actually even do a triple even if they wanted to.


I think 5% of us can actually "ride" a black diamond, let alone any freestyle tricks. When I say ride I mean carving up a diamond like you own it, not just "making it down".

The meat of the market is the snowboarding tourist, we're the extreme because we're so into it we want to talk about it when we're not doing it.


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## Argo (Feb 25, 2010)

poutanen said:


> I think 5% of us can actually "ride" a black diamond, let alone any freestyle tricks. When I say ride I mean carving up a diamond like you own it, not just "making it down".
> 
> The meat of the market is the snowboarding tourist, we're the extreme because we're so into it we want to talk about it when we're not doing it.



I agree with you. Probably more like... .00005% can triple anything


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## ThredJack (Mar 18, 2014)

poutanen said:


> I think 5% of us can actually "ride" a black diamond, let alone any freestyle tricks. When I say ride I mean carving up a diamond like you own it, not just "making it down".
> 
> The meat of the market is the snowboarding tourist, we're the extreme because we're so into it we want to talk about it when we're not doing it.





Argo said:


> I agree with you. Probably more like... .00005% can triple anything


I figured I was being a bit liberal in my estimate, but my point should still stand.


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## Fielding (Feb 15, 2015)

I 100% agree with poster below who worries that the industry hurts itself by focusing on events, media, and stars that are part of the extreme, death-defying edge of snowboarding. That stuff keeps total noobs away. It scares parents. It makes the whole sport seem like it's only for 17 year old Mountain Dew junkies. Ask any nonrider/nonskier to picture somebody snowboarding and they'll likely imagine some kid flying 20 feet in the air spinning over a half pipe. This stuff sells energy drinks not gear or lift tickets.



f00bar said:


> larrytbull said:
> 
> 
> > I am a bit younger (6 years i think) than you Wrath, but i am in same boat.
> ...


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## TooNice (Feb 7, 2014)

I used to think that snowboarding is the harder sport to get into compared to ski, because you spend more time on your butt / falling over in my experience (made worse because no one old me the first two times I snowboarded that heel lifts was *not* normal, and I was already wearing the smallest boots for guys.. which is simply too big for my unusually small feet).

But the last "culture exchange" snowboard trip I participated, the few young adults who never skied nor snowboarded before tried skiing for half a day, before giving up and trying snowboarding with much better results. This surprised me a little, and spawned the theory (amongst them) while it is/might be easier for kids to start with skiing, it is easier for adults to start with snowboarding. I have no idea what to make of this theory.

From what I have seen of university in Japan, it is still more common for people who have done neither to pick snowboarding when the opportunity arises (especially guys). Those who pick ski are often those who have done it for many years as a child, have gotten pretty competent at it, and are happy to stick with it.


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## deagol (Mar 26, 2014)

that would be a hypothesis, not a theory... 
A theory (like the theory of gravity) has actually gone through the testing phase. 

But, yeah, it would be interesting to test your hypothesis further..


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## Noreaster (Oct 7, 2012)

Marketing snowboarding to families is tricky. I had a pretty telling exercise with my creative team not that long ago assigning them to come up with campaign ideas for that exact thing. I believe the consensus was that imagery alternated between too boring/difficult and too scary/difficult. Either way an instant gratification factor for a newb - something that is undeniably present with skiing - was not there.

What I see in real life is this: a tourist clan comes to the mountain with a full intention to start off their wee one skiing. But little Johnny has seen a glamor shot or two of a pro corking it over treetops and he's surely heard of Shaun White and he has no intention of spending his time pizzaing down a bunny slope and so he pitches a major fit. Mommy and daddy, not wanting to ruin their vacation and possibly marriage, say to hell with it and buy their dearest one a snowboarding lesson. Now that may be simplifying the issue a bit but generally speaking when it comes to a typical 5-7 slope days/year newb family kids are usually the ones who initiate the idea of snowboarding. 

I don't think that snowboarding industry is necessarily dropping the ball on marketing to families or "couldn't get the head out of their asses" and realize they are marketing to a wrong demographic. It's just that when you get down to the particulars it is hard to achieve the balance between projecting excitement and easy accessibility/safety. I would surely cheer for whoever gets it right.


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## jtg (Dec 11, 2012)

rafavilardo said:


> You guys gave me so much hope! I explain.
> Since I was born in Brazil, lived all my life there with no snow at all until moved to US, I keep thinking how can I lived my whole life (29 years) without snowboarding. I was always trying to beat the clock of life, always thinking that I started this fucking sport so late (2 years ago - I'm 31 now) and not knowing for how long I'll be able to do it because I'll get old and (maybe) won't be able to practice (knees, legs and all body problems that come with age).
> 
> You guys have shown me that it is possible to ride for at least 10 more years and that I don't need to rush like crazy to enjoy the time lost.
> ...


You should move west before it's too late. You don't know what you're missing in NY!


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## CassMT (Mar 14, 2013)

havin a hard time advocating the West just now, what with the....yeh. ppl backeast may just be in the catbird seat


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## ridinbend (Aug 2, 2012)

CassMT said:


> havin a hard time advocating the West just now, what with the....yeh. ppl backeast may just be in the catbird seat


This year is an anomaly. I would venture a guess that it won't be a pattern.


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## t21 (Dec 29, 2010)

What i see at my local mountain RLM, is pretty much 60/40 on skier/boarder lessons. Although i see more younger kids ages 7-10 on boards which i though were preety cool. Today was an exception, two classes with at about 8 newb skiers each, oh well... I agree that showing commercials or ads about snowboarding is more than just X-games/Olympics might help. One thing i know for sure, a lot of parents that do not ski or boards but their kids do is because they tried it once with their friends and they(friends) left them on top of the mountain, not a good way to start. Parents my age says their knees hurt so they do not ski at all but here is the catch, I told them i used to ski but switch to snowboard because of the same ailment. BUT! i told them to take lessons instead and not to do it themselves. I have them change their minds and they would try boarding this time:happy: Though this might not help percentage wise dramatically, but at least we can add them to the club lol!


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## gixxerdk (Dec 27, 2013)

Was at Breck for a week. It seemed like boarders were outnumbered 8:1


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## speedjason (May 2, 2013)

As my older skier friend always says, snowboards are for kids.
Tried to get him snowboard, ain't gonna happen.
You have to realized skiing/snowboarding for most people is maybe 3 days per year. It's a luxury not lifestyle because everything around both is so expensive.


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## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

gixxerdk said:


> Was at Breck for a week. It seemed like boarders were outnumbered 8:1


Whistler is like 50:1


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## Adam718 (Jan 15, 2015)

My approach on the subject is way simpler: People growing up today have no balls.

You should see the faces people make at me when I ask them if they want to go/try snowboarding. The "why would I do that when I could stay home and try my luck on tinder" face. I seriously get asked "why would I snowboard?" all the time. Like, people don't understand why it would be fun to slide down a mountain on a piece of plastic. Super closed minded.

Just seems to me like no one wants to live anymore. The digital world is filled with SO much easily accessible entertainment that people don't have that craving to go out and do something as "extreme" as snowboarding. I mean you can log onto facebook and read 20 "interesting" articles, see how 100 people are living their lives, attention whore, potentially get laid, etc.

I'm no sociologist, but that's what I think based off of my own experiences.


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## UNION INHOUSE (Nov 13, 2012)

BurtonAvenger said:


> Local shops are dying and SIA is helping put a nail in that coffin. As per visits it ebbs and flows.


Hey BA, why do you feel SIA is putting the nail in the coffin of local shops?


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## deagol (Mar 26, 2014)

speedjason said:


> As my older skier friend always says, snowboards are for kids.
> ...


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## speedjason (May 2, 2013)

Adam718 said:


> My approach on the subject is way simpler: People growing up today have no balls.
> 
> You should see the faces people make at me when I ask them if they want to go/try snowboarding. The "why would I do that when I could stay home and try my luck on tinder" face. I seriously get asked "why would I snowboard?" all the time. Like, people don't understand why it would be fun to slide down a mountain on a piece of plastic. Super closed minded.
> 
> ...


Not just snowboarding. I ride motorcycle and people always tell me why would I want to ride a motorcycle, its so dangerous. A car is more comfortable.
BUT, it's not people today. It's how people are genetically programmed differently. We are thrill seekers, we like to do dangerous things because they make us happy. It's how our brain is programmed. Danger causes adrenaline. When danger stops, your brain then release dopamine which makes you feel happy. However, when the danger is above certain level, you brain does not release dopamine. It releases serotonin which is what makes deer freeze when they see headlights. The different level is what makes two type of people. One is the ones who would walk out of the village, chase animals, and protect their tribes. The other are the ones who takes care of the tribe, serve food, and take care of the children. The society needs both otherwise we would not function.
This is a very good video showing you how people are different when it comes to danger.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DmUn0HbXVQc


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## PorkCereal (Dec 28, 2013)

I've ridden bikes for about ten years when I lived in Florida. I have a fetish with acceleration and handling, and to get that from a car is exponentially more expensive than with a sport bike. I could care less about going fast. You'd think that would be why I board. Nope. I recently moved to Massachusetts and for some reason one day I was like, I want to board. Skiing looked to easy and I wanted to challenge myself. That's how this Florida transplant got on a board. The ceiling for boarding is something I don't think I'll ever reach. But one can only go bigger each year.


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## f00bar (Mar 6, 2014)

I think the 8:1 ratio is pretty accurate. As you wonder towards the parks it increases significantly, but as a whole on the mountain i think around 15% is about right.

As far as beginner lessons are concerned I'd say it becomes about 50-50 once you hit 8+. The problem is most mountains won't start until about that age for riding. Where as the magic carpets will be overflowing with 5+ year olds learning to ski.

I think this needs to be addressed. A decent percentage of kids never snowboard because they had to start skiing when they were tykes and once bombing when they are old enough never switch until their brain develops enough to realize how sucking skiing really is.


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## jdang307 (Feb 6, 2011)

This is the type of video that gets me stoked. I can physically do most of the stuff in here.


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## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

f00bar said:


> I think the 8:1 ratio is pretty accurate. As you wonder towards the parks it increases significantly, but as a whole on the mountain i think around 15% is about right.
> 
> As far as beginner lessons are concerned I'd say it becomes about 50-50 once you hit 8+. The problem is most mountains won't start until about that age for riding. Where as the magic carpets will be overflowing with 5+ year olds learning to ski.
> 
> I think this needs to be addressed. A decent percentage of kids never snowboard because they had to start skiing when they were tykes and once bombing when they are old enough never switch until their brain develops enough to realize how sucking skiing really is.


Totally agree.

It is very difficult to get the lil ones learning to snowboard.

My oldest son was 3 when he first tried snowboarding. No lessons available, i had to drag him around with a leash and get him to sideslide down the bunny hill with no real instructions from me. He did it ok, not bad.

The next yr i had him take a couple ski lessons because that's the only thing available. He did the pizza french fry thingy.....

This yr he said he likes snowboarding better but again, no lessons for 5 year olds. I take him on the bunny hill. He gets going pops an ollie on his first run, attempts a few turns..... not bad. So progressed from sideslippin to actually tryig to ride (all withoyt a single lesson and essentially on his 2 time on a snowboard.

Basically... if there were lessons for kids he would start as a snowboard instead of those god awful two planks.

Snowboarding needs to reel in the kiddies.


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## f00bar (Mar 6, 2014)

F1EA said:


> Totally agree.
> 
> It is very difficult to get the lil ones learning to snowboard.
> 
> ...


I honestly don't understand why they don't like them young. I think if you had a small set of instructors who specialized in it they would have amazing results with some 5 year olds. Certainly a specialized instructor with the right amount of patience and experience. I actually think it has advantages at that age over skiing. No having to straight out the legs when they fall, and their center of gravity is so low and even a small board is monsterous compared to their size.

In my mind if they can ride a bike without training wheels they can learn to ride.


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## Handbanana (Dec 10, 2013)

I think Burton is trying to address this with their "riglet park" learning centers aimed at 3-6 year olds. Problem is, there's not tons of them yet.


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## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

Handbanana said:


> I think Burton is trying to address this with their "riglet park" learning centers aimed at 3-6 year olds. Problem is, there's not tons of them yet.


Yes, i was really lookig fwd to that. Last yr they had one session scheduled but cancelled last minute because it was storming on the day. That day i had to get my son on a two-plank lesson (once he was up there, no way of telling him it's cancelled).


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## lab49232 (Sep 13, 2011)

f00bar said:


> I honestly don't understand why they don't like them young. I think if you had a small set of instructors who specialized in it they would have amazing results with some 5 year olds. Certainly a specialized instructor with the right amount of patience and experience. I actually think it has advantages at that age over skiing. No having to straight out the legs when they fall, and their center of gravity is so low and even a small board is monsterous compared to their size.
> 
> In my mind if they can ride a bike without training wheels they can learn to ride.


The issue (according to the policy where I use to teach) is with their ability to process moving both feet individually of eachother. Ask them to lift their right toes and they lift both feet.


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## Handbanana (Dec 10, 2013)

There's actually a decent amount of permanent riglet parks in New England. Unfortunately if you don't live near one, those temporary riglet parks that come with other events are the only option. Maybe they'll make some headway into getting more out west.


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## Psi-Man (Aug 31, 2009)

Handbanana said:


> There's actually a decent amount of permanent riglet parks in New England. Unfortunately if you don't live near one, those temporary riglet parks that come with other events are the only option. Maybe they'll make some headway into getting more out west.


The one at Jay Peak is nice. I started my girls on the 90cm chicklet, now they have an 80cm, so they are definitely starting younger.


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## f00bar (Mar 6, 2014)

lab49232 said:


> The issue (according to the policy where I use to teach) is with their ability to process moving both feet individually of eachother. Ask them to lift their right toes and they lift both feet.


That's why I say you need to teach them with a different mindset. You can't expect a lot out of them. To them it's like sledding only standing. You have to remove anything fancy and just get them going down a bit. I think Burton does a decent job designing their rigglet boards just to make standing on them easier. Skiing has pizza, riding needs something that will just get the little tykes sliding and having fun. They don't know or care about travis rice and proper technique. To them it's fun in the snow and a variation on sledding


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## Katehill (Jan 15, 2015)

The number of skiers and snowboaders are increasing every year. The number has risen from 9.33 to 10.99 million. Snowboarding and skiing has all the fun and enjoyment in it that a person want and experience once in his/her lifetime.


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## Jcb890 (Dec 12, 2014)

Handbanana said:


> I think Burton is trying to address this with their "riglet park" learning centers aimed at 3-6 year olds. Problem is, there's not tons of them yet.


One of my co-workers had his son do the Burton Riglet program at Mount Snow back at the end of January. His son was 4 at the time and is now 5. He said his son loved it.

Last time I was at the mountain I walked over and saw the Riglet area. It seems like a really great setup for teaching kids.


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## CassMT (Mar 14, 2013)

anytime i see a kid that little riding i think, it's more for the parent than the kid. a little park set up by the company to hook the kiddies into a sport/brand early are not a good thing imo. it's a Happy Meal, the McPlayland of snowboarding


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## f00bar (Mar 6, 2014)

CassMT said:


> anytime i see a kid that little riding i think, it's more for the parent than the kid. a little park set up by the company to hook the kiddies into a sport/brand early are not a good thing imo. it's a Happy Meal, the McPlayland of snowboarding


As is everything for that age group. Ever been to a tball game or soccer game full of 5 year olds? The parents cheering away and the kids picking their noses and playing in the dirt.

But you have to start somewhere.


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## CassMT (Mar 14, 2013)

nope, have not been to soccer or football game, but it sounds like they have it right, let the kids play how they choose. skateboarding, snowboarding etc. are not sports that are chosen for you by your parents or anyone else. it's not like signing Timmy up for lil'league...or is it


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## Jcb890 (Dec 12, 2014)

CassMT said:


> nope, have not been to soccer or football game, but it sounds like they have it right, let the kids play how they choose. skateboarding, snowboarding etc. are not sports that are chosen for you by your parents or anyone else. it's not like signing Timmy up for lil'league...or is it


Probably some of each. I'm sure some youngsters want to follow in mom/dad's footsteps and learn to ski or snowboard. And I'm sure there's plenty of kids pushed into trying it so their parents can go off and get some runs in while the kiddo practices.


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## f00bar (Mar 6, 2014)

At that age they just want to play in the snow. Just like the soccer players and baseball players just want to be outside. They would be just as happy sledding down a hill, or building a snow man. But I don't see any harm in directing that towards something that they can do with the family for years to come before they turn 12 and decide to ditch everyone and go do park all day.


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## CassMT (Mar 14, 2013)

yep, at that age they just want to be with the parent, whatever they are doing. in those instances where the kids really wants to board, i'm all for it. but, for that you do not need a branded kiddiepark. if Burton's intentions are altruistic and they just want to bring families together then they can donate parks anonymously, but they don't, cuz they don't. i know this is idealistic and anicapitalist on my part, just calling a spade a spade


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## Jcb890 (Dec 12, 2014)

CassMT said:


> yep, at that age they just want to be with the parent, whatever they are doing. in those instances where the kids really wants to board, i'm all for it. but, for that you do not need a branded kiddiepark. if Burton's intentions are altruistic and they just want to bring families together then they can donate parks anonymously, but they don't, cuz they don't. i know this is idealistic and anicapitalist on my part, just calling a spade a spade


At Mount Snow, the Riglet program doesn't have a "park" with jumps and rails and stuff. It is just what they call their snowboarding program for kids. Of course they're all Burton boards, but whatever. They have a little pulley in the front so instructors can help teach them to turn and whatnot. It seems like a pretty good way to learn/teach youngsters.

I'm no Burton fanboy either, but I don't really see a problem with this to be honest.


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## f00bar (Mar 6, 2014)

If one extra riglet board helps keep the lights on at a local shop, or an extra serving of ramen for an instructor I don't see the harm.

I get what you are saying. The evil empire Burton taking full advantage of being the 800lb gorilla of the industry and doing it's best to assimilate all young borders into the Cult of Burton.

I'd still take that over them taking up skiing


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## Swede (Mar 23, 2013)

I had not snowboarded for 10+ years until I decided to start back when Gunnar was 2 and I'm glad we did. Fortunately he took to it and the last two winters watching him progress have been awesome for me. It is definitely tedious and takes a lot of patients with kids that young and you definitely have to go into with the right mindset. It might be a 15 minute day at the mountain or a 4 hour day but you have to go with the flow. My biggest frustration is the resorts not wanting to do group lessons for kids under 4 for snowboarding at least on the east coast. The teacher/student relationship and all the fun games is much more condusive to keeping kids interested than the parent/child relationship. I hate it when I see 20+ 2-4 year olds in a group lesson for skiing and no matter what I do I can't find anyone for Gunnar to ride with. Luckily I have picked up a lot from the various instructors he's had as far as games and fun stuff so I can somewhat keep his interest.

I'm not that big on the riglet park thing but I'm glad Burton has taken the initiative to keep downsizing equipment. Awesome that my other son who will still be 1 at the start of next season will have a board and boots that fit him. A 5 year old teaching a 1 year old should be fun to watch.


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## CassMT (Mar 14, 2013)

f00bar said:


> I get what you are saying. The evil empire Burton taking full advantage of being the 800lb gorilla of the industry and doing it's best to assimilate all young borders into the Cult of Burton.


oh it's worse than that, ever seen Eyes Wide Shut?


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## f00bar (Mar 6, 2014)

CassMT said:


> oh it's worse than that, ever seen Eyes Wide Shut?


I would have taken this up long ago if I had known Nicole Kidman was involved somehow!


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## sabatoa (Jan 18, 2011)

f00bar said:


> I would have taken this up long ago if I had known Nicole Kidman was involved somehow!


You can just watch her parts on line. heh


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## jdang307 (Feb 6, 2011)

CassMT said:


> yep, at that age they just want to be with the parent, whatever they are doing. in those instances where the kids really wants to board, i'm all for it. but, for that you do not need a branded kiddiepark. if Burton's intentions are altruistic and they just want to bring families together then they can donate parks anonymously, but they don't, cuz they don't. i know this is idealistic and anicapitalist on my part, just calling a spade a spade


The thing is, until Burton Riglet parks opened most places wouldn't take kids until their 5 for snowboarding, so it was ski'ing, or nothing. If the kid doesn't enjoy it of course it'll have to stop sooner or later. But you don't know until you put the kid in it. At 3-5 years they aren't doing anything without your help and guidance. Other than sitting in the house all day.


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## Jcb890 (Dec 12, 2014)

Swede said:


> I had not snowboarded for 10+ years until I decided to start back when Gunnar was 2 and I'm glad we did. Fortunately he took to it and the last two winters watching him progress have been awesome for me. It is definitely tedious and takes a lot of patients with kids that young and you definitely have to go into with the right mindset. It might be a 15 minute day at the mountain or a 4 hour day but you have to go with the flow. My biggest frustration is the resorts not wanting to do group lessons for kids under 4 for snowboarding at least on the east coast. The teacher/student relationship and all the fun games is much more condusive to keeping kids interested than the parent/child relationship. I hate it when I see 20+ 2-4 year olds in a group lesson for skiing and no matter what I do I can't find anyone for Gunnar to ride with. Luckily I have picked up a lot from the various instructors he's had as far as games and fun stuff so I can somewhat keep his interest.
> 
> I'm not that big on the riglet park thing but I'm glad Burton has taken the initiative to keep downsizing equipment. Awesome that my other son who will still be 1 at the start of next season will have a board and boots that fit him. A 5 year old teaching a 1 year old should be fun to watch.


I don't know your location or preference of mountain, but Mount Snow was great with lessons for snowboarders of all ages. My co-worker had 0 problems getting his son into the Burton Riglet program on a Saturday. I am not sure how many other kids were there though.

Normally they don't let parents be around the kids, but my co-worker and his wife are from Japan. He speaks English so-so, but his son did not speak English at all really. So, they were nice enough to let his parents hang around and help to translate.

He must have watched some Arnold movies though because he knew the "I'll be back!" line and used it when we were leaving. :laugh:


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## david_z (Dec 14, 2009)

I'm doing my part:


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## Mystery2many (Aug 14, 2013)

david_z said:


> I'm doing my part:


Good job sir!!!!! I will be doing the same thing.


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## t21 (Dec 29, 2010)

david_z said:


> I'm doing my part:


that's cool David, My niece and nephew (ages 5 and 3) lives around Chicago and they took lessons from a riglet park at some resort there. I ask my 4 year old grandson if he wants to try snowboarding and he says," when he is as big as me" lol! oh well someday...


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## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

david_z said:


> I'm doing my part:


Awesome! 

I'm doing mine too:





That was his first little ride of the (amputated) season and he pops an ollie right off the bat...


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## chomps1211 (Mar 30, 2011)

F1EA said:


> Awesome!
> 
> I'm doing mine too:
> 
> ...


Very cool!!! :laugh: Gotta luv that fearlessness!! :jumping1:


….and Dave? Awesome looking set up man! …Although we both know I'm a little leery around all pink snow toddlers! :laugh: I keep nervously checking behind me when they're around!  :lol:


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## larrytbull (Oct 30, 2013)

Doing my part as well
Mine is a bit older, but in reality he dragged me in to riding, not the other way around


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## Aztrailerhawk (May 4, 2014)

*Learned around 40*



larrytbull said:


> Doing my part as well
> Mine is a bit older, but in reality he dragged me in to riding, not the other way around


Same here. My daughter wanted to learn to ride, and I wasn't gonna just watch. If I had learned earlier, would not have ever got a "real" job. I would probably be the broke down gray haired lifty. 

BTW, can't believe I just watched three minutes of that video.


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## jtg (Dec 11, 2012)

Swede said:


> I know everyones probably tired of seeing these but here is a link to 6 videos that shows progression from age 2 to 4. I'm glad I didn't listen to everyone that said don't start them until they are 4. Gunnar Andrews 2 year old wakeboarder and snowboarder


You registered a domain for your 3 year old and are trying to attract sponsors?


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## Manicmouse (Apr 7, 2014)

jtg said:


> You registered a domain for your 3 year old and are trying to attract sponsors?


Push your child into golf instead, have you seen how much they can earn?! You can retire and kick back!


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## CassMT (Mar 14, 2013)

all personal choices but, that makes my stomach turn


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