# considering goggle mod surgery



## CassMT (Mar 14, 2013)

love the new Grayne GTO, all 3 of the lenses are the best optics ever for me...










that is, when they are not fogging up and then freezing! which is turning out to be daily.I am sometimes having to go inside a few times to fix them, this will not do! So i was thinking of adding some ventilation. i'm sure this will void any warrantees, but, whatever

never had to do this before, but my idea had been to take a redhot pin and poke/melt a few more holes in the top foam, little as possible, then add more till the problem is gone

anyone got another way?


----------



## ridinbend (Aug 2, 2012)

I don't have much on a DIY mod for venting but I noticed your not wearing a helmet. No judgement but.....

I started wearing a helmet this year, and wasn't real excited about it. I can say it has resolved all goggle fogging issues as I can take them off on the lift, in the trees, etc. and put them on the brim and not worry about my sweat/heat fogging them or the foam getting wet. Something to consider.


----------



## CassMT (Mar 14, 2013)

a helmet only gets this hothead hotter (oh shit, lets not go there), this icing is happening mid-run


----------



## speedjason (May 2, 2013)

Weirdly enough, since I started wearing my helmet, I also experience less fogging.
Could also be I got an Airhole mask.


----------



## CassMT (Mar 14, 2013)

speedjason said:


> Weirdly enough, since I started wearing my helmet, I also experience less fogging.
> Could also be I got an Airhole mask.


 so i'm not the only having Graynes fog up

i get fog between the lenses too, regularly. which i would think should be sealed and near impossible to have happen


----------



## Argo (Feb 25, 2010)

CassMT said:


> so i'm not the only having Graynes fog up
> 
> i get fog between the lenses too, regularly. which i would think should be sealed and near impossible to have happen


This happens to me when my goggles are stored wet. I now take my lens out after a snowy day and I never store them with my beanie or gloves anymore. My son and wife had the same issues and they resolved. Mine will still fog and ice on fullblown pow days, ice when it's under 10 degrees.


----------



## koi (May 16, 2013)

I'm with the people who have had less fogging issues since wearing a helmet. Before you start poking holes in your googles have you tried other methods of fixing the issue. Used any anti-fogging solutions or toothpaste on the googles?


----------



## CassMT (Mar 14, 2013)

i always dry em out at night, but yes, the problem is def worse when it was really cold.

never tried any antifog stuff that actually worked, but i'd imagine the tech has improved? is there a brand that works? i suppose i should try that before i start burning holes in my stuff


----------



## Argo (Feb 25, 2010)

I have tried holes in my electric and they just freeze faster on cold days. I just ordered some smith iox to see if they work better. I only get about 5 laps/1000' vert out of my goggles now before they fog up


----------



## koi (May 16, 2013)

I have never done anti-fog solution, but I have done the toothpaste on my scuba diving goggles. Get some generic gel toothpaste rub it in on the inside and let it sit for 5 minutes before rinsing/wiping it out. 

For my snowboarding goggles I have never had to do anything more than the spit technic (same as toothpaste).


----------



## ridinbend (Aug 2, 2012)

Argo said:


> I have tried holes in my electric and they just freeze faster on cold days. I just ordered some smith iox to see if they work better. I only get about 5 laps/1000' vert out of my goggles now before they fog up


The last pair of goggles I had to buy as a heavy sweating big guy. Plus their lens options and tints are quality. 

Sorry to hear about your goggles cass, maybe get a hold of wired (assuming their from him) and see if he'll credit you for something different.


----------



## speedjason (May 2, 2013)

CassMT said:


> so i'm not the only having Graynes fog up
> 
> i get fog between the lenses too, regularly. which i would think should be sealed and near impossible to have happen


Between the lenses?
That's no good.
Make sure the foam gasket is sealed completely in between the lenses.


----------



## CassMT (Mar 14, 2013)

linked wiredsport to the thread...

gonna grab some kinda antifog this evening and try tomorrow... with my oakleys ready at the backup, they never did this in any condition or temps...


----------



## Chef Jer (Apr 3, 2011)

Argo said:


> I have tried holes in my electric and they just freeze faster on cold days. I just ordered some smith iox to see if they work better. I only get about 5 laps/1000' vert out of my goggles now before they fog up


I got Smith IO's last year and they've been great. I had Oakley's before that and they would routinely fog up on me.


----------



## CassMT (Mar 14, 2013)

speedjason said:


> Between the lenses?
> That's no good.
> Make sure the foam gasket is sealed completely in between the lenses.


that's the bit that makes me think i may have a defect claim, 2 of the 3 lens fog between at times, going away with a proper drying


----------



## speedjason (May 2, 2013)

CassMT said:


> that's the bit that makes me think i may have a defect claim, 2 of the 3 lens fog between at times, going away with a proper drying


Take the lens out and squeeze on the edge make sure the gasket is sealing completely.
Make sure the gasket is dry as well.
The other thing is maybe the air in between the lenses is already humid due to water passing the foam gasket.


----------



## ridinbend (Aug 2, 2012)

speedjason said:


> Take the lens out and squeeze on the edge make sure the gasket is sealing completely.
> Make sure the gasket is dry as well.
> The other thing is maybe the air in between the lenses is already humid due to water passing the foam gasket.


This happened a few times when I left my damp goggles(any brand) in my bag. A night by the fire and the lens definitely dried out.


----------



## CassMT (Mar 14, 2013)

thats all well and good, but i can't have em fukin up on me on the mountain, ain nobody got time for that


----------



## Bamfboardman (Dec 11, 2012)

Only time my smiths fog is when I'm hiking so I tend to take them off.


----------



## Wiredsport (Sep 16, 2009)

CassMT said:


> love the new Grayne GTO, all 3 of the lenses are the best optics ever for me...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hi Bro,

First off, we will get you squared away. The warranty is effectively, "you will be stoked". You can't void that . If we can't make them work for your face I will get you an alternate frame or a full refund. No frame (regardless of brand) will work for every face. but...the fact that you are fogging between the lenses means that you have a broken seal.

That said...Don't poke holes. The holes in all dual pane goggles need to be separated from the main lens area so that the holes pass through a small, isolated, sealed area only. Poking holes is effectively a broken seal which is already your issue.

The lens on the GTO goggle has a 3 part seal that exceeds other brands. The inner lens is first protected by a pressure gasket which pressures the outer lens and surrounds the sealed joint with the inner lens. 2nd there is a waterproof foam lens isolation adhesive pad. Both the foam and the adhesive are waterproof. 3rd and application of silicone is applied that further ensures complete waterproofing. Goggles rarely have more than one of these 3 protections in place. To get moisture in between the lenses you need to have two separate coexisting factors at work. 1. the goggle needs to have a damaged silicon and waterproof foam seal and 2. The lens needs to be exposed to moisture. 

The most common way goggle seals are damaged is heat. Riders often put their gear by the fire (as suggested above) or similar to dry out and in the process ruin their goggle seals. Here is Oakley's warning, "Do not leave the goggle in areas of concentrated heat and sunlight, such as on a car dashboard or hanging from a rearview mirror." Sounds minor, but this will damage the seal to a point where there is no longer a seal between the lenses. Moisture can then freely access the chamber between the two lenses. The other common way this occurs is pressure. Goggles (all goggles) will not take much pressure at all. They really do need to be babied. Not that this is you, but storage in a gear bag or under anything heavy can do a goggle in.

Here are additional notes on goggle care: http://www.graynegear.com/lens-care/

The bottom line is, you will be cared for. It sounds like you have a couple of damaged lenses. Even though our complete goggles sell for less than the other guys lenses, we still offer a much more extensive warranty. We know that Grayne goggles exceed the quality of the big guys in terms of every component being used and we back that up.

Send a PM and we will get you squared away.


----------



## CassMT (Mar 14, 2013)

Thanks WiredSport! i'll get in touch today


----------



## Lamps (Sep 3, 2011)

CassMT said:


> linked wiredsport to the thread...
> 
> gonna grab some kinda antifog this evening and try tomorrow... with my oakleys ready at the backup, they never did this in any condition or temps...


You've answered your own question. I've found my oakley airbrakes rarely fog.


----------



## Wiredsport (Sep 16, 2009)

Lamps said:


> You've answered your own question. I've found my oakley airbrakes rarely fog.


Oakley Airbrake Fog Up Between Lenses?

Hi bro,

Any lens with a broken seal will fog between the lenses. Google any goggle brand, model and the word "fog" an you will find this complaint.

The seal between the two lenses, if undamaged, will always prohibit moisture between the lenses. If you have fogging between the lenses you have a broken seal. This is an extremely common occurance and honestly most manufacturers refuse them as warranties (along with scratching) as a mishandling issue.

As I mentioned above, most manufacturers rely on a relatively insignificant barrier to protect the inner lens chamber. This consists of what is effectively two sided tape on both sides of the foam pad (stripping). This is a micro thin layer of adhesive that is very susceptible to damage. We have tested the adhesive on many brands with heat starting at very low and gradually increasing and you can literally watch the adhesive contract and melt away at temperatures that are just uncomfortable to the skin. That is why we reinforce with silicone (and a third protection method on all frame styles, which varies by the design of the frame).


----------



## CassMT (Mar 14, 2013)

gotta fess up, without knowing it was so critical i have overheated em on the dash a couple times, explains why 2/3 of my lensses are fukt.

so,the frames are perfect, look for an MT order for a couple of them kickass $9.95 lenses! haha....live a nd learn


----------



## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

Yep, I ruined a pair of Smith lenses years ago by storing them in the microfiber bag wet, leaving them in my backpack, then tossing said backpack down near a heater vent. Once the goggle heated up, it completely blew out the inner seal.


----------



## JH84 (Nov 30, 2014)

Guess I should stop sitting my googles on the dash for the drive home! Never knew that was bad. 

My spy's or Oakleys don't fog up, but my buddy who's a bigger guy, 6'2 240lbs can't find googles that don't fog up on him. He even has the same Oakleys as me. He's another one of those guys that is always hot. Every guy I know like that seems to have problems with fogging! 

You think it's just frame fitting your face that causes it for the most part though?


----------



## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

Damn. I guess that's why my IOx fog. I've left them a couple of times very near a heater to get rid of moisture (for example if i'm going to ride the very next day).

Mine are not that bad, but fogging ruined a perfect pow run on Sunday... I had to gondola down after sitting for a rest while my riding buddy rode down then talked about how much untracked pow he had all the way down. Made me almost throw my goggles out the window.


----------



## Wiredsport (Sep 16, 2009)

CassMT said:


> gotta fess up, without knowing it was so critical i have overheated em on the dash a couple times, explains why 2/3 of my lensses are fukt.
> 
> so,the frames are perfect, look for an MT order for a couple of them kickass $9.95 lenses! haha....live a nd learn


No Way man,

Just PM. I will get you some lenses. I have a photochromic lens for the GTO I have been testing. I will send it to you. The only one on the planet right now .


----------



## trapper (Jan 15, 2013)

I've had pretty good luck against fogging with my Grayne GTOs and I'm a big guy that runs hot all the time. While I don't know if it makes a difference, I wear a helmet and usually put them up on the it while riding the lift though. 

The only problems I've had with these goggles is sometimes I get water dripping down from the top seal into the inside of the lens. It isn't condensation either, it appears to be an actual periodic leak that happens only once in a while. It doesn't happen enough to be a huge problem though.

And I do get some icing under certain conditions, but I imagine most goggles would do that so I'm not concerned about it.


----------



## Wiredsport (Sep 16, 2009)

JH84 said:


> Guess I should stop sitting my googles on the dash for the drive home! Never knew that was bad.


We definitely get that. Also, have a look by the fireplace and heaters next time you are in the lodge. Tons of peeps "drying out" their $180.00 goggles...and guaranteeing they will fog between the lenses in vapor conditions.


----------



## CassMT (Mar 14, 2013)

Wiredsport said:


> No Way man,
> 
> Just PM. I will get you some lenses. I have a photochromic lens for the GTO I have been testing. I will send it to you. The only one on the planet right now .


oh hell yeah, Wiredsprort rulin' the Wasteland


----------



## speedjason (May 2, 2013)

Wiredsport said:


> No Way man,
> 
> Just PM. I will get you some lenses. I have a photochromic lens for the GTO I have been testing. I will send it to you. The only one on the planet right now .


Nice, let us know when it's available. I would like to try it.
So far I love my GTO.


----------



## mikeLA (Dec 28, 2014)

Now thats customer service...
Do you have info on which lens to pick for what application? I may have to order a set before my trip in a month.


----------



## deagol (Mar 26, 2014)

glad I read this thread, I probably made the same mistake as others here. My Smith goggles were great for years and now fog up all the time. Thanks WiredSport!


----------



## t21 (Dec 29, 2010)

Whoa! did not realize that wiredsport got some cool looking goggles. Might have to notify my son to get one of those Grayne GTO or the Pyro kind:happy:


----------



## Wiredsport (Sep 16, 2009)

mikeLA said:


> Now thats customer service...
> Do you have info on which lens to pick for what application? I may have to order a set before my trip in a month.


Hi Bro,

Lemmeno where you are heading. I will be happy to make some suggestions.


----------



## Wiredsport (Sep 16, 2009)

It might be helpful to make a note about the original topic, why airflow is important and what role the sealed chamber in a dual lens plays.

A dual lens is hugely superior to a single lens because the dry trapped air that is contained between the lenses acts as insulation from the (typically conflicting) temperatures that exist inside and outside the lens. If the seal is in place and not damaged fog cannot occur between the panes. Conversely, if you have fog between the panes, you have a broken seal.

A dual lens with a broken seal is much worse than a single lens as moisture will always build up between the two lenses when challenging conditions exist. Moist air is literally sucked into the compromised air chamber by the conflicting temperatures on either side. To make that worse we are talking about vapor, which can pass through even the smallest gap.

Venting is not intended to ventilate the area between the two lenses. That would defeat the purpose of the two panes. Through the lens ventilation (on dual pane goggles) is achieved by creating a sub chamber in the lens which is isolated from the main chamber. The holes always will pass only through the sub chamber.

The goal of these holes (and the larger, more effective foam venting) is to help vent moist air from inside the face/lens free space. 

The natural design question then is, "why not use a lens that has a molded in dual chamber that does not rely on a dinky foam seal?". This has been used. The reason it fails is...snowboarding. It turns out we crash on our faces . Especially with spherical lenses where the lens can easily be the first point of impact, the two lenses require a moving joint so as not to become damaged.

All this leaves an uncomfortable truth. The lenses that are used on all snowboard goggles right on up to $300.00 are made of plastic (polycarbonate), adhesives and foam. Marketing aside (and there is a lot of marketing) these lenses are all very fragile. Not that they will crack or break but rather that it does not take much for them not to perform their intended function. This is almost worse then if they would crack in two pieces as the rider is often left with something that looks correct but is in reality entirely degraded.


----------



## mikeLA (Dec 28, 2014)

Wiredsport said:


> Hi Bro,
> 
> Lemmeno where you are heading. I will be happy to make some suggestions.


Copper Mtn, CO
The Grayne Canyon Whiteout Goggle w/Photochromatic Anti-Fog Lens +Bonus Goldrush Lens would work?


----------



## Argo (Feb 25, 2010)

I have been using the iox for a week now. Had a snow day yesterday, zero fogging. They definitely let in more air flow between the lens and face which is helpful for me


----------



## CassMT (Mar 14, 2013)

got the replacement lenses today AND the prototype photochromic lens that i can't wait to try out tomorrow! thanks Wiredsport, over-the-top customer service


----------



## Wiredsport (Sep 16, 2009)

mikeLA said:


> Copper Mtn, CO
> The Grayne Canyon Whiteout Goggle w/Photochromatic Anti-Fog Lens +Bonus Goldrush Lens would work?


Lucky you bro!

Yes, The PC lens will get you through most everything. It is also surprisingly contrasty. The Goldrush will be a great add-on for bluebird and a hit of...steeze. My honest guess is that you will change the from PC very rarely.


----------



## mikeLA (Dec 28, 2014)

Wiredsport said:


> Lucky you bro!
> 
> Yes, The PC lens will get you through most everything. It is also surprisingly contrasty. The Goldrush will be a great add-on for bluebird and a hit of...steeze. My honest guess is that you will change the from PC very rarely.


Awesome! Ill order Friday!


----------



## KansasNoob (Feb 24, 2013)

Wiredsport said:


> Lucky you bro!
> 
> Yes, The PC lens will get you through most everything. It is also surprisingly contrasty. The Goldrush will be a great add-on for bluebird and a hit of...steeze. My honest guess is that you will change the from PC very rarely.


I agree with this. While it may not have the "highlighting" feature of an amber lens, it works very well in dimmer conditions, and great in bright sun too... I think my buddies are all about to buy a pair.


----------

