# Turning by applying equal pressure from both feet?



## Jakey (Mar 17, 2011)

Ok so I've heard about foot pedalling, however is it not right to turn by applying equal pressure in both feet and staying centred?


----------



## twin89 (Jan 21, 2009)

foot pedalling? i'm not sure if i have heard that term, or know what it means, but i am by no means an instructor.

I would say that when carving it feels like to me that i am staying centered and using my ankles to control the angle of my board to control the turn.

It feels like i am using equal pressure, but i'm not totally sure if that is what happens. Snowolf is bound to chime in here, he can be of much more help =)


----------



## Jakey (Mar 17, 2011)

What I mean by foot pedalling, say toeside turn for example is that you iniate the turn by lifting up the frontfoot heel/pressing down toes and countering this by pressing down backfoot heel lifting up backfoot toes. Although it's only meant to be a slight counter not so much that you can't turn. As you begin to turn you then start applying equal pressure in both feet. As the turn is coming to an end you apply some backfoot pressure and then start a new turn. Don't know if that makes sense or is correct.


----------



## Jakey (Mar 17, 2011)

Snowolf said:


> Essentially this is good technique for skidded turns. You are using the torsional flex of the board to initiate and control the turn. By countering with the back foot, I assume you simply mean holding some of that uphill edge pressure until the board points down the fall line? If so, then yes, this is also a good technique. It allows the board to pivot down the hill while keeping the tail "locked" into the hill with the uphill edge. Be careful though not to overdo this as it will slow turn establishment and thus cause unwanted acceleration in the turn entry and control phase. In short, get that back foot doing what the front foot is doing fairly soon.
> 
> Now for carving, we do not use torsional flex; we use tilt and that allows our side cut to initiate, control and complete the turn. This is done by using both feet simultaneously. In carving, both feet should be moving together, doing the same movement at the same time....:thumbsup:


Yeah that's exactly it. Although I must admit when I went on holiday in Jan I hadn't undertood it properly and was just holding that counter thing and was continually sliding and not wiping enough speed off. Was wondering why my edges werent digging in enough. Then I read after the holiday you shouldn't hold that counter thing for long only initially. 

On a steep would you attempt to carve with that technique? I remember an instructor telling me you had to have the right slopes and conditions to properly carve.

Also is it possible to do a dynamic skidded turn without torsional flex?


----------



## Jibtah (Mar 21, 2011)

Snowolf said:


> Yes it is possible to dynamically skid a turn without using torsional flex. It is a bit inefficient and funky, but possible. In essence, is could be done by tilting the board on edge (using both feel like in carving) and then forcefully breaking the edge hold by deliberately pushing the board to the outside of the turn. new riders who kick the tail around do this. Sadly, they think it is good riding, when in reality it is poor form...but it does work. Use of torsional flex in dynamic skidded turns is very effective and makes the entire turn easier and stronger.


I don't kick the tail around, I'd say I've done the dynamic skidded turns without flexing the board but then again when I'm riding I don't really think about my legs at all.


----------



## Skoojoo (Mar 1, 2010)

Jibtah said:


> I don't kick the tail around, I'd say I've done the dynamic skidded turns without flexing the board but then again when I'm riding I don't really think about my legs at all.


IMO, you should be constantly focusing on board performance and lower body movements to help you control your turns and which promotes good posture and form. I have found that at one point, your shoulders do what is necessary without you thinking. Unless you are going for a level test, you should have a quiet upper body that requires no thought at all no matter what type of turn you take. In a level test you want to think more because you dont want to fuck up.


----------



## CheeseForSteeze (May 11, 2011)

I might add that with a softer deck torsionally, edge to edge carving will be really hard to do without engaging into a dynamic crossunder turn. This is because you will tend to favor your nose foot to roll over to the heels with your tail foot trailing it no matter how evenly you try to distribute your body weight. With a very stiff deck, there is not enough torsional flex for this to matter, but for a softer, park/freestyle or beginning deck, it will result in a crossunder turn unless you really exaggerate driving edge to edge by using of the shoulders. Newer mid-width park decks have become torsionally stiffer over the years for better edge to edge response, but I still find myself naturally crossing under if I'm hitting particularly steep grades, especially if the conditions are hardpack. dustpack or crust on my jib deck.


----------



## BullGator (Feb 22, 2011)

So.. (being a noob here) while I understand that you use equal pressure and lean to do the carve, you still slightly start with your lead foot and roll to the lean, correct? 

Seems that without that slight turn, you wouldn't have the consistent carve line, but a gap / slide when you switch from one edge to the other...


----------



## BullGator (Feb 22, 2011)

Interesting.. Guess I will be checking out a few more of your videos before Wednesday!

Thanks!!!


----------



## aiidoneus (Apr 7, 2011)

Snowolf said:


> No, you really do make the edge change in one fluid movement using both feet at the same time. There are two ways to make this happen. Both are called an unweighting movement. In either case, you need to unweight the board in order to disengage the edge you are on before you can reengage the new edge. Most people use an up unweight for basic carving. It is a very easy, intuitive movement. Basically, you flex down, then pop up briskly. This upward movement briefly makes you board weightless and that enables you to tilt it onto the new edge. An extreme example of this is to actually pop off of the snow at the end of each turn, then land on the new edge. If done properly, there will be a gap in your line in the snow where you made the edge change.
> 
> The other way is a down unweight which is better for steeps and dynamic carving. Here, instead of popping up, you drop abruptly toward the board. You can also think of it as sucking your legs up really quickly. If you do this quickly, you can unweight the board before you drop down toward it. This is a weird felling to master, but once you get the hang of it you will see how much better this is in some situations like on very steep slopes or in the moguls.


I found when learning to down unweight, going from toe side to heel felt very natural. Going the opposite felt awkward at first. My gf who rides regular said the opposite (i ride goofy).


----------



## .enigma. (Dec 20, 2010)

Snowolf said:


> No, you really do make the edge change in one fluid movement using both feet at the same time. There are two ways to make this happen. Both are called an unweighting movement. In either case, you need to unweight the board in order to disengage the edge you are on before you can reengage the new edge. Most people use an up unweight for basic carving. It is a very easy, intuitive movement. Basically, you flex down, then pop up briskly. This upward movement briefly makes you board weightless and that enables you to tilt it onto the new edge. An extreme example of this is to actually pop off of the snow at the end of each turn, then land on the new edge. If done properly, there will be a gap in your line in the snow where you made the edge change.
> 
> The other way is a down unweight which is better for steeps and dynamic carving. Here, instead of popping up, you drop abruptly toward the board. You can also think of it as sucking your legs up really quickly. If you do this quickly, you can unweight the board before you drop down toward it. This is a weird felling to master, but once you get the hang of it you will see how much better this is in some situations like on very steep slopes or in the moguls.



Do you have any videos that show this well?

I think I understand what youre saying but its easier for me to learn if I can see someone else doing it correctly. Thanks


----------



## NateGC (Aug 3, 2011)

Utilizing only the sidecut to turn is a totally viable way of turning and does result in a carved turn. 
However, carved turnes are not only done with tilt and the sidecut. There is such a thing as dynamic medium radius carved turns, and that requires torsional flex. The key is fore/aft movement and fine-tuning your ankle movement throughout the shaping of the turn.

Example: 
Heelside turn: Start on toes, dropping your leading heel and complementing with a subtle fore (toward the nose of your board longitudinally) movement of the center of mass. After the initiation, start slowly lifting your rear toe and moving aft until you are balancing on the sidecut and carving. By the belly of the turn, your center of mass should be centered on the board with your legs actively pushing the board away to decamber it and build up energy. During the finishing part of the turn, your weight should continue moving aft and then back to center and fore as you ride the rebound of the board into the initiation of the next turn with an aggressive twist to lock your downhill (toeside at this point) edge into the snow; creating an overlapping of edge tracks where your heel is still engaged and your toe is beginning the next turn. 

How much fore and aft movement depends on how quickly you are doing the turns, but I usually like to do a quick pressure on the rear foot at the end of the turn to unweight the leading edge and spring into the next turn; especially if I'm in off-piste or bumps that require aggressive riding. Or I just want to have fun.


----------



## AAA (Feb 2, 2008)

No pro here, but I've been riding for 20 years and have have the fortune of spending just a few training days under world class / olympic level coaches in recent years. Plenty wrong in this vid (a few yrs old), but it does show some flex/extend or weight/unweight technique. When done to the nth, it feels like your guts are going to drive into the snow during weighting, followed by a snap that feels like you're catapaulting into the trees. 2-G's, I don't believe, are unusual. Drive forward or aft to change the radius of the carve. Different boards like to be ridden different ways. Old school shapes demanded an aggresive nose forward, hard on the gas pedal initiation. More modern shapes can be ridden more neutral. Deep shit with both if you're way back on the tail. Anyway, for what it's worth...

‪Carving Clips‬‏ - YouTube


----------



## Beschatten (Oct 4, 2011)

I have some food for thought, questions as well.

For skidded turns, I'm not sure if I flex the board torsionally. I kind of roll my front knee and just shift my weight. I don't think any of my boards have enough torsional flex to even do that (I tried it a few times as a buddy mentioned it) but I end up just turning.

And you say that just shifting out the tail in/out is bad form? How do I correct that.

How to Snowboard - Basic Carve - YouTube 

Also this. Fast forward to 3:20. The chick is doing extremely quick carving that seem to be perfectly equally arched. How the hell is she doing that? I find shifting from edge to edge like that de-stabalizing. Any tips on that? How to?


----------



## NateGC (Aug 3, 2011)

Beschatten:

First of all, if you are rolling the knee and shifting your weight forward, you're torsionally flexing the board. Any board can be flexed along its longitudinal axis, some boards are just stiffer than others, and therefore less easy to see/feel. 

Second, torsionally flexing the board results in a disengagement of the uphill edge, holding that will result in a turn (generally taking as long as a count of 3 from a standstill.) So I'm not sure what you meant when you said 
"I don't think any of my boards have enough torsional flex to even do that (I tried it a few times as a buddy mentioned it) but I end up just turning." (That's the idea!!)

The skidded or carved turn comes from how much pressure you apply during the shaping of the turn. A skidded will result when you roll your knee, shift weight slightly forward, and hold/stay centered while continuing the pressure on the front foot. Carved turns happen when you shift your weight slighty back or pressure your rear foot after the halfway point of the turn, thus applying pressure along the entire sidecut throughout the arc of the turn. 

The other method of carving (shown in the video) requires more of a "banking" motion. This allows you to essentially ride the sidecut (rail), but also makes it more difficult to change the radius of the turn (or switch edges quickly without an extreme movement to bring the board back under you and onto the new edge). The way the was demonstrated to get the shorter radius was essentially a racing style of carved turn, where the knees follow eachother and the board is tipped from edge to edge, applying a sudden pressure to carve the board out from under the body and then releasing the pressure to "spring" the board back under the body and onto the new edge. This can be done with speed on groomers (as seen in the film) but will break down when on crud/bumps/off-piste. This is because when both feet are pressured together and act as one (with the knees following eachother) they are unable to act independantly to absorb rough terrain. 

Anyway, to acheive the carves in the film, lower your center of mass and actively push your board out from under you and then pull it back under you, pushing it out in the other direction immediately. All the while, keep your body quiet and your front shoulder pointed down the fall line, although it'll require your shoulders to open a bit to acheive the knee-following necessary for the move. (Picture-head on-your upper body as a clock and board as the pendulum; the smaller the clock is in height, the faster the pendulum swings because of the shorter rod connecting the two.) Again, the key to that style is pushing the board out from underneath you, not so much of a torsional move but a tipping one with alot of pressure (although torsion is still technically happening between the turns, it is not really what you're using to engage the new edge and release the old one.)

As far as pushing the tail in/out, allow your center of mass to naturally move back as the board comes around in the turn. Best way to practice this is to do a heelside turn. Drop the leading heel, rotate the knee out and shift your weight in a slight diagonal movement down the fall line (like you described), as the turn comes around, let off the pressure, balance centered over your new edge and rotate your back knee out. This reinforces the centered/athletic stance, and it also pressures the tail of the board without needing a shift aft (which you can add in depending on the radius and speed-as AAA said) and it puts you in the perfect position to start your next turn without any extreme movements. On your toeside, practice by looking back the way you came as you finish the turn and completely relaxing your ankles. 

Hope the essay isn't too much. I'm off to the slopes. 
Good turns.

-Nate


----------



## Beschatten (Oct 4, 2011)

NateGC said:


> Beschatten:
> 
> First of all, if you are rolling the knee and shifting your weight forward, you're torsionally flexing the board. Any board can be flexed along its longitudinal axis, some boards are just stiffer than others, and therefore less easy to see/feel.
> 
> ...


I think I got gist of it. I tried doing it like that today, but I wasn't sure if I did because well, I cant see myself lol.


----------



## NateGC (Aug 3, 2011)

Beschatten,

Yea man, video is priceless. Grab a buddy and a GoPro or Contour for some great shots you can use for a good MA session. 

Snowolf,

Excellant exercise in upper/lower body separation and dynamics. Works great for bump riding too. 

Looking back at the video, I actually agree more with your analysis of the short radius carving. There is a bit more independant leg movement then I thought originally, although I still think they are mostly a tipping and pressuring turn (since the edge change is so quick) and would like to see how she navigates rough terrain with that amount of bend at the waist. Also at the end of her toeside turns, she is pressing the tail quite alot and I don't know how easy it would be her her to maintain that position and angle in bumps (specifically pause at 3:22) since her front shoulder is no longer pointing down the fall line and as she sucks the board under for the heelside, she is very collapsed at the waist which doesnt seem to allow for much room to absorb. It also doesnt seem like there is alot of the speed control in the turn or early edge engagement that comes from a more rounded short radius turn. 

I feel like if that was attempted on bumps, the attempter would get bucked fast.

That said, I'd love to see more videos like this for crud and bumps to compare. Being a member of PSIA/AASI, our "Movement Matrix" is sadly lacking in that area for boarders. Maybe I'll try to get a few videos of myself riding those styles of turns in various terrain and check it out, see if I look the same or if I'm doing anything different with my upper body.

Like the discussion guys, definitely feeding my inner snowboard geekiness. Haha.

-Nate


----------



## jlm1976 (Feb 26, 2009)

NateGC said:


> Looking back at the video, I actually agree more with your analysis of the short radius carving. There is a bit more independant leg movement then I thought originally, although I still think they are mostly a tipping and pressuring turn (since the edge change is so quick) and would like to see how she navigates rough terrain with that amount of bend at the waist. Also at the end of her toeside turns, she is pressing the tail quite alot and I don't know how easy it would be her her to maintain that position and angle in bumps (specifically pause at 3:22) since her front shoulder is no longer pointing down the fall line and as she sucks the board under for the heelside, she is very collapsed at the waist which doesnt seem to allow for much room to absorb. It also doesnt seem like there is alot of the speed control in the turn or early edge engagement that comes from a more rounded short radius turn.
> 
> I feel like if that was attempted on bumps, the attempter would get bucked fast.
> 
> ...


The question is what movements is she making that are helpful in the bumps? What could be added to make them more effective? My main focus would be getting the tail pressure to happen in both turns then dropping the edge angle and see what happens to her short snappy turns..


----------



## NateGC (Aug 3, 2011)

Snowolf,
I'll have to try out a Gnu, I've heard alot of good stuff about them. I'm primarily on a Burton Aftermath, whoch has been alot of fun compared to the T7 I have.

Jlm2976,
For sure the dynamic movements being used are very important to bumps and rough terrain. I think naturally the edge angle will want to lower and the legs will work more independantly in the bumps, creating the more skidded turns Snowolf mentioned. In rough terrain, it would depend on the snow conditions. I agree with your focus on pressure and lower edge angle as the exercise to get you there, from an instructing standpoint.

Nate


----------



## Beschatten (Oct 4, 2011)

When you say "open up your ankles" what does that really mean? You mean bend your ankles outwards? Or inwards?

I've never really put much thought into how I ride. I roll my knees when I need to, and pull off carves when I need too. I've never really had to think any of this out.


----------



## NateGC (Aug 3, 2011)

Opening the ankles is an extension away from your shin thus "opening" the joint and increasing the angle between your foot and shin.


----------



## aiidoneus (Apr 7, 2011)

Flexion decreases the angle between the bones of the limb at a joint aka closing. Extension increases it, aka opening.


----------

