# carving on stiff hills



## Guest (Mar 16, 2009)

I mastered S curves.. I don't know if you can call that a carving.. But I can do my S curve very easily on green areas which is for beginner with very little angle. But when I get to a stiff hill more like blue areas, my S becomes two J. What does it take to do S curves on stiff angle mountains?


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## snoeboarder (Sep 19, 2008)

it takes quick turns, strong legs and the balance to ride fast while dodging small bumps (with S turns) which turn into small jumps on steep hill, so you need to manuvere around

im guessing you mean that your turns arent smooth and straight but more heel/toe perpendicular to the hill ... which is how it goes on steeps unless your bombing it straight


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## scottland (Jan 8, 2008)

Ride more.

Too be more specific, the more you ride steeper terrain, the more comfortable you get with it, and the more aggressive you get.

Just keep riding, it's all progression.


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## Guest (Mar 16, 2009)

I agree with everyone's advice. I remember when I was at the same point you're describing. You can link turns perfectly, but as the terrain becomes steeper and the speed picks up, you have a tendency to stay on the turn longer. The thought process behind this is going sideways is slower than going downhill, and you know that once the nose is pointing down the fall line you're going to start to move. 

Gradually attempt steeper terrain, only increasing the gradient and speed when you feel as comfortable as if you were on a green. The strong legs mentioned earlier are needed to help control the board as it attempt to lose it's edge or slide out from beneath you. You need to overcome the fear that everyone has- the fear of the speed. Your body remembers clearly the pain of catching an edge and biting it. You can imagine how much more it could hurt at higher speeds and you are much more aware of catching htat edge.

Tell yourself that this is no different than those greens you're shredding now. Embrace the speed. Maybe scream to release some adrenaline. Expect yourself to rip it up, and it's more likely that you will. 


You will fall. Just don't expect yourself to.


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## arsenic0 (Nov 11, 2008)

Mpagano9 said:


> I agree with everyone's advice. I remember when I was at the same point you're describing. You can link turns perfectly, but as the terrain becomes steeper and the speed picks up, you have a tendency to stay on the turn longer. The thought process behind this is going sideways is slower than going downhill, and you know that once the nose is pointing down the fall line you're going to start to move.
> 
> Gradually attempt steeper terrain, only increasing the gradient and speed when you feel as comfortable as if you were on a green. The strong legs mentioned earlier are needed to help control the board as it attempt to lose it's edge or slide out from beneath you. You need to overcome the fear that everyone has- the fear of the speed. Your body remembers clearly the pain of catching an edge and biting it. You can imagine how much more it could hurt at higher speeds and you are much more aware of catching htat edge.
> 
> ...


The largest issue i have with pointing downhill on these steeper runs is how choppy the skiers make it..sometimes it seems like every time i turn my board down the hill im bouncing off some mini mogul and airborne, that feeling is very very hard to get over and not something i can do quite yet  Give me a nice flat groomer and its not nearly as bad as fresh pow days all flattened down with these moguls....but i hate groomers..so I gotta figure it out!


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## markee (Jan 1, 2009)

I went for some night riding yesterday at one of the local mountains. Groomers were so cut up it was insane. The snow was pretty dece, though. Mountain had just gotten 8 inches of fresh in the past 24 hours. Anyway, I ended up on the bunny hill working on switch turns, got them down, but it was a whole other story riding down greens. the chop was intense. I wiped out more than a few times.

I've learned over time how to take the bumps in (my board is park-oriented and cant really charge through them) and not fall. But switch was crazy bad. Worse crash was a scorpion as a result of an edge catch.

Oh well. Landed my first halfcab haha.


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## arsenic0 (Nov 11, 2008)

markee said:


> I went for some night riding yesterday at one of the local mountains. Groomers were so cut up it was insane. The snow was pretty dece, though. Mountain had just gotten 8 inches of fresh in the past 24 hours. Anyway, I ended up on the bunny hill working on switch turns, got them down, but it was a whole other story riding down greens. the chop was intense. I wiped out more than a few times.
> 
> I've learned over time how to take the bumps in (my board is park-oriented and cant really charge through them) and not fall. But switch was crazy bad. Worse crash was a scorpion as a result of an edge catch.
> 
> Oh well. Landed my first halfcab haha.


Lol wtf is a scorpion? When you catch your front edge and face plant with your feet up over your head?


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## twin89 (Jan 21, 2009)

I know what your mean by the slope being very choppy. These are not ideal to learn to carve on, goto a nice flat green pref. groomed and work on initiating turns with your feet and how you angle your board and try to limit the use of your upper body. a good way to do this is to put your hands behind your back. This helps advance your balance and prevents you from swinging your arms which generally leads to skid turns. 

As for the choppier steeper terrain sometimes the best you can do is skidd turns, i bet that very few people here can carve moguls if any. The bumpyness from choppy stuff that you get latter in the day is actaully easier to take going more or less strait down the fall line making quick snake like turns (or so i have found it to be). Remember to keep your knees bent and try to absorb all the bumps with your lower body and keep your board/edge on the snow. I seem to become airborne from these bumps when i stay too long on one edge, so i tend to keep changing edges quickly.

Don't really worry about carving bumpy blacks just yet, it will come in time, but for now start to practice carving on some greens and really focus on not using your upper body to turn, but use you feet to turn your board. There is a good sticky on this forum on how to carve, i would look it up =)


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## bbissell (Mar 8, 2009)

arsenic0 said:


> Lol wtf is a scorpion? When you catch your front edge and face plant with your feet up over your head?


Yes that is it!


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## Guest (Mar 17, 2009)

Mpagano9 said:


> You can imagine how much more it could hurt at higher speeds and you are much more aware of catching htat edge.
> 
> You will fall. Just don't expect yourself to.


You reconized my little delima here. I fell hard on icy surface 4 times on same spot on my right butt and it's not even funny because I wasn't even coming down the mountain but it was a flat surface turning on hill side too quick. And pain was horrible I could not get up for 5 mins.
After that my speed is zero.. I constantly stop (just ooes it without even thinking) immeditely after one S on stiff hill fear for the speed. I'm shopping around for hip pad, hopefully this will lift me up again. But generally S. CA is almost down with season.. I will wait for next season to come around


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## Guest (Mar 24, 2009)

On a steeper pitch one would be more inclined to shift their weight back for fear of falling forward.
In doing so, the pressure needed on your front edges is much less which makes it difficult to initiate a
quick change of direction. If most pressure is applied to the rear of the board it's vitually impossible to generate a nice full carve using the entire edge length. If that makes any bit of sense


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## jliu (Jan 20, 2009)

Snowolf said:


> Couple of things that you guys can try when it comes to making a turn on really steep terrain is to really flex the ankles, knees and hips to get as low as you possibly can on your board. This really makes a lot of difference on the steeps. It is such a difficult thing to force yourself to do, but you have to lean down the hill more (actually you really are`nt leaning that much down hill; you are just staying in that upside down T position, but it feels spooky as hell on the steeps).
> 
> For dealing with chopped up, bumpy snow, the key here is make your legs like noodles ...super, super flexible so your board can travel without chattering and bouncing off the snow. Additionally, try to avoid turning too quickly in this stuff. If you bring the board across the fall line too abruptly, the board starts hopping and you fall. You have to try to get closer to a carve when making turns in the crappy crud like this.
> 
> ...



Oh man...that looked pretty hairy..at first just by looking on screen I couldn't tell how steep it was cause of the contrast...just seemed all white...and when you were going down I was like...snowwolf is leafing?! But as you came down I realized the incline and icyness. Man i would've turned into a bowling ball going down that..


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## lisevolution (Sep 20, 2007)

Snowolf said:


> When all else fails, a great, safe way to get down something really steep and gnarly in the crud is the snowboarding equivalent to the skier`s hop turn. It is not considered "technically correct" riding by AASI, but it does work and there are times when riders in the real world need more tools in their bag of tricks that what is technically correct.
> 
> To do these, it is really simple. You traverse across the slop and when you get to the spot where you want to turn, flex really low and initiate a normal turn using torsional flex. When the nose of the board finds the fall line and you are pointed down the hill. pop off with both feet and rotate about 90 degrees, landing solidly on your new edge and traverse back the other way. This technique may not be the prettiest way to ride, but it will get you safely down anything with positive edge engagement and almost no time spent with the board pointing down the fall line.
> 
> ...


I was actually going to reference this video when reading this thread! When it comes to the steeps you do what you have to make it happen, it doesn't matter how pretty you look. Shit even Jeremy Jones pulls up when he needs to


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## Guest (Mar 26, 2009)

I have found that retracting the front leg slightly when initaiting turns on steep terrain helps you get the tail around across the fall line quicly along with what Wolf is suggesting. Hop turns, pivot turns or windshield wiper turns as they are sometimes called are efficent survival moves that get the job done when your life is at stake.... Flock AASI

Also, maintaing reference alignment, especially with the upper body (shoulders aligned with degree of slope) will really help you get your board around quicker and give you confidence to ride the steeps, anywhere anytime and in all conditions.

think about this: more weight on the front of the board at turn initiation, centered weight during the control phase of the turn, (the apex) and more weight on the tail of the board during the completion phase of the turn.


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## Guest (Mar 27, 2009)

Tick showed me that years ago in terrible conditions in 4 bowl at meadows. It unweights the tail and helps you get it across tha fall line quciker. It just takes a leap of faith to do it cuz its scary!! The feeling is like falling but with an immediate extension you quickly set your edge and go through the pressure adjustments I mentioned during the turn.\\

This technique is especially effective on the steepest runs. Don't forget reference alignment to maintain proper CM placement, again crucial on the steeps.


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## Vlaze (Nov 12, 2008)

Retracting the front leg? That sounds like Snowolf said, pulling the front tip up some as you turn. And then you said it takes weight off the tail? Something doesn't add up. When you retract your front leg if you mean actually pulling up on the front foot that weight it gonna shift to the rear aka the tail. Also when you pick up off the front foot and thus lift the board up you're taking more effective edge off the ground and it makes it even harder to turn in my experience. In a drastic scenario leaning back and pulling the tip up trying to turn when it's almost in a slight wheelie position never resulted in easier turns for me, makes it all the more harder. Perhaps I'm reading what was written wrong but that's what it looks like is being said :dunno:

I just use my hips and rotate my body, shifting my weight and thus whipping the board from heel to toe fall line and vice versa on the steepest terrain and it works no problem. Believe me from the ICE coast we do this more than half the year so it becomes instinct facing the steepest trails. 

Some people get skittish because you have to position the board at some point down the hill before sharply turning it to the other edge. They just need to keep a level head and stay calm to complete the turn otherwise they'll panic, lean back like I mentioned, lift the front of their board up when turning and wind on their ass or knees when the board kicks out on them on ice, I did this enough back learning how to deal with this terrain. However I do agree the rear has to be lightened somewhat when you do the turn to slide it out quick to complete the turn and then place the weight immediately back on it when at fall line to apply equal weight and edge on the ground. You just really can't feel it as described since it happens quick and just becomes habitual, at least from my perspective.

Edit: I watched the vid, looks like you're carving as you complete the turn more than you need to be skidding in that scenario. Alike to what plank said, the rear needs to be lightened or sometimes as I put it, push down on that rear leg when turning to slide it out is how I do it. Just keep in mind if the rear edge is engaged in a line with the surface when turning quickly on ice, that's not gonna work to well. Need to stay light footed and push the foot out without applying the weight to the edge. Think of it like standing on the board on flat ground and putting weight from your hips on one foot. Now try it when you're balancing on an edge on flat ground simulating being on the mountain, just don't push down on the edge but push down on the top surface of the board alike to when you were level with the flat surface. (Sorry for all the typing it seems complicated to give thorough details to make sense if they do :laugh


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## wrathfuldeity (Oct 5, 2007)

Just pointing out two things: That carving on steep open vs chute is about perception, turn radius and quickness/agility of handling the board vs confidence at straight line bombing speed. And secondly about snow conditions deep poo vs packed vs ice. Snowolf's vid looks right for the packed crust conditions of the chute, however if it was deep poo you could get a smoother rhythm going, get higher on the walls and not have to billygoat. If you had the same steepness that had a nice run out or in an open bowl with a bit more pow (say 6-8+ inch of fresh) you could just bomb with a couple long curves.


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## Guest (Mar 28, 2009)

Snowolf said:


> Hmmmm.....I have never thought of that or heard it before. I am eager to try this; it makes sense. So, do you literally try to pull the nose back up toward you a little as you are going into the turn?


 Yes,When Initiating. If you let gravity take over, (the falling sensation) you weight the tip of the board and unweight the tail helping you get it around. 
Reference alignment is really key on the steeps in regard to CM placement and pressure distrubution.

Flaws in your performance on those steep areas are revealed when they are askew.

Instead of trying to pull the tip towards you, try flexing the front leg with a corresponding slight extension of the rear leg... Timing, intensity and duration. TID bit.


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## Guest (Mar 28, 2009)

Yeah You got it. Is'nt that what I said? To help you weight the tip a slight extension of the back leg and flexion of the front leg. I should have prefaced my statements with 'instead of THINKING of pulling you tip towards you' THINK of flexing front, and extending the back leg followed my a quick EXTENSION of both legs as you do during any other DYNAMIC turn anywhere else. You should use whatever terminology that works for you, I was relaying the words that work for me. or were taught to me. 

When I use this technique it helps ME to remeber to match my shoulders to the degree of slope, specifically the retraction of the front leg. Hopefully I will get a chance to show you how Tick taught it to me.

The clinic topic was refence alignment and riding steeps. The worst possbble conditions you can imagine in 3-4 bowl. It eventually morphed into this retraction thingy we are discussing. I can see how my last statement was confusing, we are just using different words or Ques to help us accomplish and say the same thing.

Remember, when the board gets closer to your hips through retraction, down un weighting, whatever you want to call it, you are decreasing pressure which makes for an easier edge change. BTW are you forgetting the hump move on your toesides?? maybe thats why you're having issues with them?


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## visibleinks (Mar 14, 2009)

Snowolf said:


> For dealing with chopped up, bumpy snow, the key here is make your legs like noodles ...super, super flexible so your board can travel without chattering and bouncing off the snow.


Bingo.

I need to work on that - sometimes I have a problem going fast on runs that have gotten very bumpy - it really is a different ball game then when it unmolested snow.


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## Guest (Mar 29, 2009)

Just add to what Wolf is saying: Try to stay in the middle of your flexion range(knees and ankles) this way you will always have somewhere to go (flexing or extending, up or down) sometimes we become static when the terrain gets steep and challenging even for expert accomplished riders. Be Bruce Lee.. ready for anything, but loose and flexibile; by staying in the middle of your flex range you can better absorb what ever the terrain dictates, but only if you are loose and not overly flexed or extended.

This requires some fitness and especially core strength.


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## Guest (Mar 30, 2009)

Snowolf said:


> Tried this, it resulted in re tearing my fucking ankle. this typical of the myopic attitude AASI has....riding in 3 feet of heavy pow and all they do is rip everyone a new asshole for weighting the back foot. I an several other people disagreed and
> they just talk shit and tell everyone they are wrong...Okay fine, center stanced, flex front foot and guess what??? Fucking nose dives under 3 feet of powder, sticks while entire body rotates down hill and re sprains ankle....no more riding, no fucking hike in the Southwest and I can`t even fucking do my job because I cant walk....


Damn. Sorry to hear. 

I don't get it. I've been following this thread and it gets a lil confusing. Doesn't "flexing front foot" lift the front board up? How does it "nose dive"?

Again sorry to hear.


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## Guest (Mar 30, 2009)

sorry man Snowolf and I are just talking, and discussing AASI principles back and forth here. You are forgetting about gravity, when you flex/retract the front foot towards your hips and let gravity take it course you weight the tip of the board during turn initiation and unweight the tail.. make sense? 
The individuals mentioned are AASI divisional clinicians. I think Any further discussion about what transpired should be done via PM's.


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## Guest (Mar 30, 2009)

oneplankawanka said:


> sorry man Snowolf and I are just talking, and discussing AASI principles back and forth here. You are forgetting about gravity, when you flex/retract the front foot towards your hips and let gravity take it course you weight the tip of the board during turn initiation and unweight the tail.. make sense?
> The individuals mentioned are AASI divisional clinicians. I think Any further discussion about what transpired should be done via PM's.


Ah, it makes sense. thanks

Can you guys explain what went wrong? Whether it was instructions, technique, etc, so other members that may try this can avoid this. tia


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