# It's killing season



## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

It's why I ultimately just hung it up regarding BC riding. CO's snowpack is a scary beast and the more I learned about avalanche/snow science the scarier it got. At the end of the day, I ride to chill out and have fun. Tough for me to do that when having to literally make life and death decisions.

The only advice I can give people is to educate yourself and be honest with yourself about your level of risk acceptance. What are you looking to get out of this? Will you be happy if you go out and spend a ton of time skinning/hiking that line you've been wanting only to find the conditions aren't there and you end up riding a much lesser line? Are you even willing to make that call if need be? If you aren't, do yourself a favor and don't make that hike in the first place.


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## mojo maestro (Jan 6, 2009)

The lure of the untracked pow pow is strong........


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## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

Like the saying goes, there are old backcountry skiers/snowboarders and there are bold backcountry skiers/snowboarders. There are no bold old backcountry skiers/snowboarders.


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## deagol (Mar 26, 2014)

mojo maestro said:


> The lure of the untracked pow pow is strong........


True, but some of the backcountry is getting close to be as tracked as a ski area. Also, the snow was very crusty this weekend


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## SBForum Editor (Nov 2, 2015)

killclimbz said:


> Time to reign it and and be very thoughtful and careful about what you are doing. There is a persistent weak layer through out most of the west. These are just about impossible to predict. The best, most knowledgeable people in the avalanche profession don't mess with them. They give slopes suspect in this regard a very wide berth. These problems will calm down, but it will take time. Maybe a lot of it. Play like a professional.


This is such an important thread—and backcountry education is key... Thanks for sharing your friend's wide words, killclimbz.


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## killclimbz (Aug 10, 2007)

SBForum Editor said:


> This is such an important thread—and backcountry education is key... Thanks for sharing your friend's wide words, killclimbz.


Thanks. 

We were doing our on snow for Friends of Berthoud Pass. A person across the valley from triggered a huge deep slab and went for a ride. I went up and investigated the slide up closer yesterday. Avy debris chunks the size of a smart car were prevalent in the debris field. CAIC rated it an R5 D3. About a foot ball field across with a crown that was around 10ft deep. He triggered it from below. The person caught took a ride in this, pulled his airbag, bag got shredded, and still walked away from this. People just don't do that in slides of this size. 

CAIC

Glad he is okay. Again, a persistent weak layer is nothing to mess with. 

I took a bunch of pics with my DSLR. I will post some up once I go through them tonight.


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## deagol (Mar 26, 2014)

surprised I didn't run into you up there yesterday.. we saw this slide and our jaws dropped.. not to mention the one on Russell.

We saw a large group that looked like it might have been a class just starting out. 

Also ran into a group of skiers with no beacons.

Biggest slides I have seen. I also saw that a snowmobile set one of on Jones pass yesterday..


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## wrathfuldeity (Oct 5, 2007)

A season's pass is a great avy safety tool.

Last Saturday 1/24th all kinds of slides in and out to be seen...certainly crazy to go out.

1 Avy fatality at Baker on Sunday

Avalanche kills Bellingham man near Mt. Baker Ski Area | Bellingham Herald


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## killclimbz (Aug 10, 2007)

wrathfuldeity said:


> A season's pass is a great avy safety tool.
> 
> Last Saturday 1/24th all kinds of slides in and out to be seen...certainly crazy to go out.
> 
> ...


That was the one more death that I was referring too. The count is 10 people in 10 days. There was a close call here yesterday. A solo backcountry skier was skiing an aggressive lines over cliffs and got swept. He was able to get to his cell phone, had a signal, and called for help. Sounds like he had serious injuries. A lot of people out there are checking their brains when they click into their boards. 

You can certainly get out in these conditions. People just need to dial it back. That last part is where we are having the problems.


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## killclimbz (Aug 10, 2007)

As promised, here are some of the pics of the Postage Stamp slide. This was rated R5 D3 by the CAIC. These ratings are on a scale of 1 to 5, with 5 being the largest/strongest. R refers to the width of the avalanche. R5 means that it went as big as it can go. D is the destructive force. D3 means that this was strong enough to take out a house, or several houses. Not something a human body would survive. The person caught was was below the steep slope on low angle terrain and triggered the avalanche from below. It crashed down on top of him and took him for a ride. He did pull his airbag and that obviously helped keep him alive. He walked away from this. At the very least I would have expected a full body cast. Persistent weak layers go large. I don't think anyone expected this path to go so large. That is the problem with this issue. It surprises everyone.

A look at the slide from a distance.








Another look from within the debris field.








The chunky debris. Some larger than refrigerator chunks in here.








Lauren trying to skin across the debris. It was a pita to get across in spots. 








The crown was thick. You can see an obvious layer about a foot or two down from the top and a whole lot of thick slab. This is what came after him. Looked to be about 10ft thick.









By that guy a Powerball ticket, luckiest man alive.


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## d2cycles (Feb 24, 2013)

So an avalanche can be triggered from above or below? What determines the point at where the snow separates and creates the crown?

How far down can you be and still trigger the avalanche? From the description, it sounded like the guy was pretty far down the hill from the crown.


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## Opunui (Mar 30, 2015)

Thanks for sharing. Very educational.


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## killclimbz (Aug 10, 2007)

d2cycles said:


> So an avalanche can be triggered from above or below? What determines the point at where the snow separates and creates the crown?
> 
> How far down can you be and still trigger the avalanche? From the description, it sounded like the guy was pretty far down the hill from the crown.



This is why people need to take a Level 1 avalanche course then use their brain. An avalanche can be triggered from above, from below, or when you are on the slope! Weak spots in the snow pack is where it will break away from. In this case there were some rocks at the crown line and it is a huge convexity. Knowing the Alpha angle is a key component. Every path has it's characteristics. What pertains to this one may not mean a thing on another.


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## DrnknZag (Feb 7, 2010)

Yeah its a pretty scary snowpack for much of the west right now. We had a couple sketchy persistent buried layers that have been creating a few problems here in the PNW, though I'm hoping the rain we've had the past week has helped break these down. Not sure about the interface with the new snow yet either.

While writing this, I just saw on the news 5 snowmobilers were killed yesterday in BC. Ugh.....


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## killclimbz (Aug 10, 2007)

It looks like the persistent layer has been mostly removed from NWAC's list of problems. I really wish ours would go away that fast. Not going to have such luck in Colorado. I think it is here to stay until mid March at the earliest. Probably April.

CAIC put up an interesting blog post about this latest rash of avalanche deaths. It gives a little perspective as to why it happened in the fashion that it did. 

Blog

It's a quick easy informative read. Worth your time.


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## killclimbz (Aug 10, 2007)

It looks like the persistent layer has been mostly removed from NWAC's list of problems. I really wish ours would go away that fast. Not going to have such luck in Colorado. I think it is here to stay until mid March at the earliest. Probably April.

CAIC put up an interesting blog post about this latest rash of avalanche deaths. It gives a little perspective as to why it happened in the fashion that it did. 

Blog

It's a quick easy informative read. Worth your time.


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## Argo (Feb 25, 2010)

The snowmobile crowd has been taking a hard hit lately. ...


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## Powhunter (May 10, 2015)

What are your thoughts on in bounds hike to terrain? I routinely ride hike to stuf, for ex. Hike to bowls @ Keystone, Lake Chutes/Snow White @ Breck, Knife Ridge, Horseshoe Bowl @ Wolf, etc. 

Do you feel these areas should be approached like the BC and have all appropriate gear, or are the resorts good enough at maintaining? I ride hike to in bounds terrain specifically because I I am smart enough to know I'm not in a position to safely navigate the BC, but sometimes wonder if I'm operating under a false sense of security.


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## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

Inbounds terrain that's open is pretty safe in terms of avalanche danger. Not avalanche-proof, but the resorts are pretty conservative opening terrain. Getting people caught in avalanches isn't good for business.

But, in the last decade or so, there was an incident where some people got caught in a slide at A-Basin and there was a local guy from here in Evergreen killed in a small inbounds slide at Winter Park.


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## Phedder (Sep 13, 2014)

Powhunter said:


> What are your thoughts on in bounds hike to terrain? I routinely ride hike to stuf, for ex. Hike to bowls @ Keystone, Lake Chutes/Snow White @ Breck, Knife Ridge, Horseshoe Bowl @ Wolf, etc.
> 
> Do you feel these areas should be approached like the BC and have all appropriate gear, or are the resorts good enough at maintaining? I ride hike to in bounds terrain specifically because I I am smart enough to know I'm not in a position to safely navigate the BC, but sometimes wonder if I'm operating under a false sense of security.


I don't know those areas at all, and linvillegorge makes a fair point about resorts being conservative, but just remember that exposure is just as much of a factor as how large potential weak layers are. For chutes and drops in particular, if there's traversing above to access them involved, always be aware that even the smallest slide could be enough to send you off somewhere you won't be coming back from. I'd assume resorts use gated access to those types of areas for the safest approach, but it's always worth keeping in mind.


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## Powhunter (May 10, 2015)

Definitely valid points from both of you. What spurred these thoughts was a recent sign at Wolf as I'm going through the access gate up to Knife Ridge. It read "You are now entering Avalanche terrain - beacon use recommended..." And I started thinking, is that something they have to put up for liability reasons, or is that a legitimate concern and something we should be heeding?


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## Tatanka Head (Jan 13, 2014)

Powhunter said:


> Definitely valid points from both of you. What spurred these thoughts was a recent sign at Wolf as I'm going through the access gate up to Knife Ridge. It read "You are now entering Avalanche terrain - beacon use recommended..." And I started thinking, is that something they have to put up for liability reasons, or is that a legitimate concern and something we should be heeding?


Legitimate concern. In-bound avalanches happen more often than you think (they might not be lethal, but ski patrol can't hit every spot with bombs). And if you are going through a gate, then be smart about it. They aren't putting those signs up to scare off tourists. If anything, it is that rude awakening that reminds me that this shit is real. Maybe I react differently because I'm reading it in German and when you see ACHTUNG! It gets the heart going. 

Be smart. Get trained and bring your avy gear.


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## wrathfuldeity (Oct 5, 2007)

We have a fair amount of small inbound avalanches...depending on the day. Some areas get closed...but my point is...that even the inbounds small sluff can put you down and out. There is this smaller spot I love to hit that leads to some great turns and doesn't get hammered nor hit by tourist and it regularly slides. And when hitting it I am mindful that of have an escape and some days the first time though I will ski cut to see what happens. This year the avys have been wet and heavy...like pouring concrete...and its not the size of the slide and definitely something you don't want to be knocked down by.


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## SkullAndXbones (Feb 24, 2014)

linvillegorge said:


> It's why I ultimately just hung it up regarding BC riding. CO's snowpack is a scary beast and the more I learned about avalanche/snow science the scarier it got. At the end of the day, I ride to chill out and have fun. Tough for me to do that when having to literally make life and death decisions.
> 
> The only advice I can give people is to educate yourself and be honest with yourself about your level of risk acceptance. What are you looking to get out of this? Will you be happy if you go out and spend a ton of time skinning/hiking that line you've been wanting only to find the conditions aren't there and you end up riding a much lesser line? Are you even willing to make that call if need be? If you aren't, do yourself a favor and don't make that hike in the first place.


i'm lazy so lift accessed terrain is the best kind for me.


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## Argo (Feb 25, 2010)

Powhunter said:


> Definitely valid points from both of you. What spurred these thoughts was a recent sign at Wolf as I'm going through the access gate up to Knife Ridge. It read "You are now entering Avalanche terrain - beacon use recommended..." And I started thinking, is that something they have to put up for liability reasons, or is that a legitimate concern and something we should be heeding?


They had one of their patroller die in an avy there a few years ago....


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