# Going + +



## neni (Dec 24, 2012)

Will the fatty also see pow? Try 24/12 or 24/9. Those were my +/+ angles for groomer and pow.


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## Yeahti87 (Jan 17, 2019)

Last season I was riding 15/-15 and 15/-12 only.
This season started to run 21/-6 all the way up to 27/6 on my fully directional boards and I was suprised that it felt so easy to adjust while the last season it felt akward to me to try 21/-9. I'm sure it was more psychological than skill-wise.

I’d start with 0 degree backfoot and then move it up if it feels ok.


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## freshy (Nov 18, 2009)

If you got a skateboard go push around in a covered parkade assuming you got snow on the ground and see what feels the best carving around. Just cause when these whats your stance topics come up no one has the same as me and numbers are all over the place.


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## WigMar (Mar 17, 2019)

Honestly, with limited slope time you might be better off making small adjustments every time out. If you're already at +24, your hips and shoulders are pretty positive. I like to keep my splay fairly constant. If you go to 0 back foot, you're gonna be at +30. Further than that at +3/33 or +6/36 is pretty positive up front. Stances are entirely personal and splay is dictated by your body mechanics, so just feel it out. I'm glad you're open to trying ++.


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## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

I think it's much better to start +24 +3 then ride a bit.
Then add to the rear if you want to... say to +6.

+24 +9 will be extremely awkward to start. +27 +9 should feel better, but in any case, start at +24 +3 and then add gradually. Unless you're relatively open minded and are willing to go +27 +9 and try a different if you don't like it. 

If you're NOT open minded or have limited time, then you try 27 9 and completely dish out the idea if it feels 'weird', which it should (feel different)...


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## Snow Hound (Jul 21, 2012)

OK so the Simple Pleasures arrived today and I mounted it up and did some carpet boarding. I settled on +36+12. It felt OK. I have no idea how it's going to feel riding but I guess I'll find out on Sunday.


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## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

Snow Hound said:


> OK so the Simple Pleasures arrived today and I mounted it up and did some carpet boarding. I settled on +36+12. It felt OK. I have no idea how it's going to feel riding but I guess I'll find out on Sunday.


+36 is pretty steep, you will feel some lack of power especially on a wider board. If you're already riding a steep front angle, then no huge difference; but if you have something like 15 or 18 you will notice a loss of leverage.

Ah you already said you ride +24. Well, maybe step up to +27 first, or go all the way to 36 at least to feel the extreme. With +36 the back at +12 won't be so weird, but for example +24 +9 has a very angled rear relative to the front so your knee will feel it until you get used to that. Jumping from negative to +12 at the back is a big change all at once...

Personally, I would only go to such big angles with narrow carving type boards... the compromise i feel I made was... best fwd feel vs board leverage/edge power.


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## 16gkid (Dec 5, 2012)

Snow Hound said:


> OK so the Simple Pleasures arrived today and I mounted it up and did some carpet boarding. I settled on +36+12. It felt OK. I have no idea how it's going to feel riding but I guess I'll find out on Sunday.


Please report back on how it went, I've never ridden ++ but have wanted to try on the SP, rocking usual +18/-12


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## Snow Hound (Jul 21, 2012)

Yeah the SP is pretty fat up front. It could be an issue. Certainly the fattest board I've ever ridden. Been running +24 front on my PYL. I'll be sure to have a screwdriver in my pocket on the first day.


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## deagol (Mar 26, 2014)

I am at +25/+8 right now and it seems to be OK


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## Rip154 (Sep 23, 2017)

Going into extreme forward you will have an easier time riding low, which requires more static strength. Riding relaxed or with straight legs will feel uncomfortable. So you end up building those telemark muscles.


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## 16gkid (Dec 5, 2012)

Do you guys bring in your posi stance width compared to your duck stance width?


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## Rip154 (Sep 23, 2017)

Depends if you measure at the center mount or at the heel.


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## Aracan (Nov 24, 2017)

At the risk of sounding obtuse: If the board is to be carved, won't your rear angle be a function of waist width and boot length? 
At least that's how I set up my bindings: Rear angle is the lowest possible angle with little to no overhang. Front 15 to 20 degrees steeper, whatever works.


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## Rip154 (Sep 23, 2017)

Well if the board is wide enough already, you can figure out what stance works best independent of that. Some of the non-racing "carvers" are using up to like 33 front and 18-27 degrees between.


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## Aracan (Nov 24, 2017)

Hadn't thought of that ...


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## Crusty (Nov 8, 2018)

F1EA said:


> +36 is pretty steep, you will feel some lack of power especially on a wider board. If you're already riding a steep front angle, then no huge difference; but if you have something like 15 or 18 you will notice a loss of leverage.
> 
> Ah you already said you ride +24. Well, maybe step up to +27 first, or go all the way to 36 at least to feel the extreme. With +36 the back at +12 won't be so weird, but for example +24 +9 has a very angled rear relative to the front so your knee will feel it until you get used to that. Jumping from negative to +12 at the back is a big change all at once...
> 
> Personally, I would only go to such big angles with narrow carving type boards... the compromise i feel I made was... best fwd feel vs board leverage/edge power.


Much truth here. I've always ridden +/+, up to 55/57 on plates. Always been a carve oriented rider. I've really come to find 27/6 or so to be as much forward stance as I need. Can still charge turns as much as I want, with no loss of stability and maneuverability.


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## Snow Hound (Jul 21, 2012)

OK, I know this wasn't your intention but +26/+6 is what I'm going to go with. Everything is waxed and packed up ready to go. Just got to mount the Diodes on my Simple Pleasures when I get to the mountain. I've got to start somewhere and if you both think +36 might be too much then I'm inclined to believe you.

My concern with +6 rear is that I've booted out my PYL at - 6. Only a couple of times mind.


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## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

16gkid said:


> Do you guys bring in your posi stance width compared to your duck stance width?


Maybe like 2cm. In general, I've always been between 58cm and 56cm regardless of the stance. Im 5'11".

I like a wide-ish stance, because I ride a lot of chop, pow, sidehits, windlips, etc. All groomer carving you can definitely go narrower.


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## neni (Dec 24, 2012)

16gkid said:


> Do you guys bring in your posi stance width compared to your duck stance width?


I had a narrower stance with +/+. 
(Just looked it up in an old thread. It was 22in/56cm with +24/+9. Now I ride 23in/58.5cm with +21/-6)


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## drblast (Feb 28, 2017)

Snow Hound said:


> OK, I know this wasn't your intention but +26/+6 is what I'm going to go with. Everything is waxed and packed up ready to go. Just got to mount the Diodes on my Simple Pleasures when I get to the mountain. I've got to start somewhere and if you both think +36 might be too much then I'm inclined to believe you.
> 
> My concern with +6 rear is that I've booted out my PYL at - 6. Only a couple of times mind.


I tend to boot out the worst on my heels, so a positive rear angle helps that a little bit. It makes the toe edge worse but I feel like you can sneak up a little bit more on that side since there's typically no heel loop or anything to also get in the way.


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## Jkb818 (Sep 28, 2019)

Lotta + + setups for the Jones squad. Jones Ambassador Snowboarding Stances | Jones Blog


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## Jkb818 (Sep 28, 2019)

This thread has inspired me to try out + + for myself. I rarely ride switch and am purely a free rider. Also being 40 gotta start thinking about my knees and hips. ++ seems like it would be better on the ol joints! ??


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## zc1 (Feb 20, 2017)

I tried ++ a couple of seasons ago for one day and switched back, but I'm going to give it a shot again this weekend. It's such a quick change to make on channel system boards, so why not...

Here are summaries of some pro stances from Whitelines and Snowboarder Mag from a while back:

WHITLINES -- SNOWBOARDER STANCES & BINDING ANGLES

Snowboarder Mag -- SET-UPS


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## t21 (Dec 29, 2010)

I tried forward stance a couple of season ago on a weekend, set i think at 21/3 and it felt good since i like to carve a lot, I had to revert back to slight duck because it affected my riding when it came to going over bumps/moguls, i had a hard time controlling my turns on them and it felt that i'm forcing my back foot to follow the quick turns. I currently have my bindings set at +15/-3 The back foot set at -3 feels better on my knees when carving. @ OP, hope you have fun going ++ stance


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## Paxford (Jan 7, 2019)

Snow Hound said:


> I currently ride +24 -6 roughly.


Stick with 24 -6 on a brand new board on day pme, then adjust to posi from there a notch at a time, spending a full days riding at each point so you can observe the benefits/burdens.


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## Nivek (Jan 24, 2008)

The most extreme double pos I've ridden is 27/9. Normal snowboards, even surf carve boards, are noticeably wider than your traditional double pos carvers. Anything more than 30 you really start to sacrifice your leverage. I do also alter my stance width. For everything from 15/-3 to 21/3 I run 21in. 24/6 I run 20.5. And 27/9 I run 20. More duckfooted I bump out to 21.5. This is also very dictated by the board. Something like a Standa Shorty I'm running the more forward pos stances. That's its character. The Ravine gets 18/0. My Ego gets 21/3. Agent gets 15/-3. Overboard gets 24/6. Short fat surf carvers usually get 21/3 so I can still maintain leverage while being able to drive that back knee under and in through a toeside. And I find that most short fat "carvers" still fall into the "party board" category so I still wanna be able to get loose.


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## Jkb818 (Sep 28, 2019)

zc1 said:


> I tried ++ a couple of seasons ago for one day and switched back, but I'm going to give it a shot again this weekend. It's such a quick change to make on channel system boards, so why not...
> 
> Here are summaries of some pro stances from Whitelines and Snowboarder Mag from a while back:
> 
> ...


if it works for Jeremy Jones and Terje... ??‍♂ Edit.. and @Nivek ??


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## Donutz (May 12, 2010)

Every time this thread shows up, I read it as "Going Object-Oriented."


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## Alpine Duke (Jun 21, 2015)

I tried it on my K2 UltraDream in hero snow and loved it. Tried it on a camber board on hard groomers, which is where one would think it would really do well, and I chattered all over. I think I must give funky torsional flex when double pos. I have a couple of hard-boot carving boards so I thought the double pos would work well for me.....but I just could't shake that twist.


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## Snow Hound (Jul 21, 2012)

OK so far so good with my little experiment. Tried +27+6 and it felt fine, almost familiar. Bearing in mind I was on a new board unlike anything I've ridden before and it's almost a year since I last slid on snow it went well.

Took me a couple of runs to start feeling comfortable - I'd set the bindings up toe heavy as per TT's recommendations but the calf bite was bothering me so I centered them and all good.


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## WigMar (Mar 17, 2019)

Today I tried to move from +27/+6 up to +30/+9, and it was too far. At +30 I felt like I was loosing leverage. I backed that down to +27/+9. I probably could have gotten used to that on the groomers, but the trees felt weird. +27/+6 seems to be where I want to be- at least today lol.


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## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

WigMar said:


> Today I tried to move from +27/+6 up to +30/+9, and it was too far. At +30 I felt like I was loosing leverage. I backed that down to +27/+9. I probably could have gotten used to that on the groomers, but the trees felt weird. +27/+6 seems to be where I want to be- at least today lol.


Yep. I feel exactly the same way.
+27 +6 is my preferred, but +25 is the max on EST bindings, so i ride +25 +5 on est and +27 +6 on normal bindings.


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## Snow Hound (Jul 21, 2012)

Day 2 and I'm getting nice and low toeside, low enough to get my elbow down if I was that way inclined. There's a real slingshot sensation through the turn and weightlessness as I transition - I might even be getting airborne on occasion. 

Heelside is better than ever but there's still some chatter, I realise that this is probably a stacking issue with me bending at the waist a bit but I can't seem to rectify it - and tips on this? Trying to bend more at the knees and getting my hips forward feels almost impossible and like it's putting me off ballance. I can get into what seems like the correct position when going straight and it feels good - Heelside carves are a different matter though.

Interestingly given the board and the new stance I can still ride switch about as well as ever, which isn't great admittedly. 

I've got a 2 hour private lesson booked for the day after tomorrow. We'll see what he can do for me. Will update.


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## freshy (Nov 18, 2009)

Ok thats it...I'm in the middle of selling some bindings and doing the ol switcharoo on other binders because of it. I'm gonna try +/+ again and see if I like it any better. You guys inspired me.


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## bazman (Jan 15, 2017)

What do you re highback rotation when double positive? Just align to the back of each boot?


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## Rip154 (Sep 23, 2017)

You just have to try it and then adjust.


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## Snow Hound (Jul 21, 2012)

bazman said:


> What do you re highback rotation when double positive? Just align to the back of each boot?


For what it's worth I've got the +6 rear inline with the edge and the front as far as it will go. Absolutely no frame of reference but it seems to be working.


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## Crusty (Nov 8, 2018)

bazman said:


> What do you re highback rotation when double positive? Just align to the back of each boot?


I tend to like them squared off to heel edge. To me the physics says you want them for rear lean force, not front to rear force, where they can actually impede fore-aft movement. 

Having said that, I'm probably wrong and don't really notice much difference anyways.


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## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

bazman said:


> What do you re highback rotation when double positive? Just align to the back of each boot?


I just align so the highbacks allow tip to tail movement (as in, they let ME move tip to tail without the highbacks being in the way)... so parallel, or as close to, the board sidecut. I can never get the front +25 completely parallel, so just go as far as i can. 

This v 



Snow Hound said:


> For what it's worth I've got the +6 rear inline with the edge and the front as far as it will go. Absolutely no frame of reference but it seems to be working.


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## ridethecliche (Feb 27, 2019)

What's the reason for getting the bindings all the way forward on the toe edge? Doesn't that make it more likely to boot out when carving?


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## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

ridethecliche said:


> What's the reason for getting the bindings all the way forward on the toe edge? Doesn't that make it more likely to boot out when carving?


It does if you have properly sized bindings for your boots.

But if you go on a wide-ish board, with bindings too big for your boots; you would set them all the way to the toe to try and save some leverage...


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## ridethecliche (Feb 27, 2019)

F1EA said:


> It does if you have properly sized bindings for your boots.
> 
> But if you go on a wide-ish board, with bindings too big for your boots; you would set them all the way to the toe to try and save some leverage...


Wait, so the goal is to pick bindings that are too big and move them to the toe edge? I'm not following the rationale here.


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## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

ridethecliche said:


> Wait, so the goal is to pick bindings that are too big and move them to the toe edge? I'm not following the rationale here.


Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
hahahah

I have no idea where the whole "slam your bindings all the way to the toe" came from. But... generally, when you feel a total lack of toeside response it's because you're set too far heelside... often because people go with wider boards and bindings that are too big for their boots or are improperly mounted. So that "goal" is solving a problem that shouldn't be happening.

The goal is to use boots that fit. Use bindings that fit the boots and have sufficient response for the board in question. Center (or get them as close to centered as possible) your boots over the board. Be happy.


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## kimchijajonshim (Aug 19, 2007)

I'm 6'. I run roughly 20.5-21.5", +27 / +12 on my super directional snowsurf boards.

All mountain, last season I was 22-22.5",+27 / +6. This season I dialed it back to +21 / -3. Going to take a bit of angle off the front foot and try maybe +21 / +3. The double posi is prime for turning, but got that extreme I was having trouble getting sufficient compression for grabs and had to force even tiny 1s.


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## BoardieK (Dec 21, 2015)

So I ride +30/+12 on my Rome Blur with stiff boots and bindings and I'm really comfortable with that but I felt like there was a little something missing. I could move quickly to either edge and carve hard but seemed to be a bit too much on the backfoot.

Today I adjusted the highback angles by increasing the rear angle to max 4 notches (front is + 1 notch) and it's worked perfectly. I guess it's the equivalent of hard booters putting canting under the heel.

I can initiate toeside turns better because my lead knee will torque the board into the turn (rather than slam it straight over with both legs together) and come out of heelside turns with better bite on the rear foot. 

Double win. Something to do with the geometry of high forward angles.


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## WigMar (Mar 17, 2019)

High forward lean angles force you to bend your knees and stack your weight more properly. It's worth trying out if you haven't. I've rocked some aggressive forward lean before. I think it helped me learn how to carve better. This year, I've backed off all forward lean and like it a lot. I have the choice to get stacked that way or not. Just seems more versatile this way, and it's way better in the trees. I've even switched to surfy bindings with highbacks that are so soft they might as well not even be there. I'm glad I used forward lean as much as I have, and I'm glad I've moved on. Maybe someday I'll be back to forward lean, but I'm happy surfing around at the moment.


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## neni (Dec 24, 2012)

K.... since there's really really really no pow to ride anywhere, I spent a weekend on groomers, and fetched the custom camber board for it which wasn't used some time. Found out I had mounted it +/+. So... did try to ride those former +/+ angles... and was immensely hindered in my freedom of motion it the hip. Couldn't ride properly, was like ... urgh! I CAN'T MOVE! Lol. Made me laugh. Because, for IDK how many years I was riding those angles, only maybe 4 years use the mild duck now. 
But yeah, couldn't see any advantage of the fwd, and swapped that board to duck after one run, too. 
Strokes n folks n so...


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## Snow Hound (Jul 21, 2012)

You didn't get any of the recent snow neni? Austria got smashed. We even got a few centimetres mid week in the Dolomites - wind was blowing so hard it was waist deep in places on Wednesday afternoon.

So me and my buddy had a 2 hour private lesson on Wednesday morning. Our instructor was on the Italian boarder cross team so you'd imagine he knows a thing or two about turning. His main focus with me was heel side carving, after about 45mins he took a look at my stance and recommended I go back to my usual +24-6 and dial the forward lean all the way back (I've always ridden with some). He said it would be a more natural position to bend my knees. I'm not sure if it helped with carving but it certainly helped with jumping and I definitely felt more free.


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## neni (Dec 24, 2012)

Lol, no, unfortunately, our pow was probably blown till Austria. Glad thst you at least got the goods!

We did get half a meter by Wednesday, but only after heavy rain had drained the slopes, thus very high avy danger, and then the gale blew everything off. Down to the very ground at ridges. Many peaks are literally blown bald. Right now the next gale is about to hit, again with up to 200kmh force. So... Our pow will probably end up blown far away again :/.

I don't use any fwd lean neither; not in pow nor when carving groomers. But I suspect it's also a matter of how much fwd lean a binding has at zero position, and how much the boot has. I haven't checked, but think that the NOW Conda has more lean at zero than former B bindings I had. Also the 32 XLT I ride has quite some lean and is quite stiff and transfers weight nicely over the heel edge. Didn't ever feel the need to have and additional highback lean.


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## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

neni said:


> Lol, no, unfortunately, our pow was probably blown till Austria. Glad thst you at least got the goods!
> 
> We did get half a meter by Wednesday, but only after heavy rain had drained the slopes, thus very high avy danger, and then the gale blew everything off. Down to the very ground at ridges. Many peaks are literally blown bald. Right now the next gale is about to hit, again with up to 200kmh force. So... Our pow will probably end up blown far away again :/.
> 
> I don't use any fwd lean neither; not in pow nor when carving groomers. But I suspect it's also a matter of how much fwd lean a binding has at zero position, and how much the boot has. I haven't checked, but think that the NOW Conda has more lean at zero than former B bindings I had. Also the 32 XLT I ride has quite some lean and is quite stiff and transfers weight nicely over the heel edge. Didn't ever feel the need to have and additional highback lean.


Yes, Now have much more default fwd lean. Burton bindings have true 0 lean.

I actually use more fwd lean on the back foot... ++ changes your leg alignment, and the back foot can handle a lot more fwd lean. So, I use more fwd lean on the back.

The only time i dislike fwd lean is on end of day cat tracks with dead quads; and depending how stiff the binding is, on boxes and rails; which I rarely do anyways...


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## OU812 (Feb 2, 2013)

So because of this thread I decided to try a slightly more forward type stance, even though it’s not ++. I used to ride 15/-6 for the past month but today went out with 18/0. I’ve always felt not quite right at duck, I’ve had 18/-9 before as well as my previous setup and it didn’t feel that natural just like 15/-6 but was definitely rideable. Everyone kept telling me to go more duck but I felt that was the wrong way to go. 

Anyways, 18/0 felt awesome. I might try going ++ next time but this is definitely a step in the right direction. Appreciate the thread and discussion.


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## buller_scott (Jun 10, 2018)

OU812 said:


> Everyone kept telling me to go more duck but I felt that was the wrong way to go.
> 
> Anyways, 18/0 felt awesome. I might try going ++ next time but this is definitely a step in the right direction. Appreciate the thread and discussion.


Yeah man, +/+ is awesome (for the right application). If you can, try to find your angle offset (more on this below), then move your angles forward bit by bit. I ended up settling on +24/+6 for pow and carving days, +18/0 for most days where I'm just cruising, straight ollies, carving, but not committed to any part of the hill in particular (e.g. riding with my dad), +12/-6 for spins off every bump in sight, and modest kicker stuff. 

I found +27/+9 felt a little too extreme for me - perhaps my technique or the boards I'm riding, but I felt like I could drive the edge MORE with just a bit less angle, particularly on my front foot on turn initiation, and on my back foot when trying to wring the fcking neck out of the turn to carve back uphill. 

Angle offset - sorry if this is the wrong terminology, but I got the idea from Kevin @ AngrySnowboarder - the idea that your feet are comfortable at certain angles apart e.g. 24 degrees, and depending on the conditions / style of riding, simply move both angles in/out to suit << he was right, and the sht works wonderfully! If you notice above, my feet seem to be most comfy at 18 degrees offset from one another, with the duck limit being +9/-9, which felt a little too close-shouldered for me, and +12/-9 didn't remedy this, although +12/-6 felt REALLY good.


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## WigMar (Mar 17, 2019)

buller_scott said:


> Angle offset - sorry if this is the wrong terminology, but I got the idea from Kevin @ AngrySnowboarder - the idea that your feet are comfortable at certain angles apart e.g. 24 degrees, and depending on the conditions / style of riding, simply move both angles in/out to suit << he was right, and the sht works wonderfully! If you notice above, my feet seem to be most comfy at 18 degrees offset from one another, with the duck limit being +9/-9, which felt a little too close-shouldered for me, and +12/-9 didn't remedy this, although +12/-6 felt REALLY good.


I call that angle offest between my feet splay. Not sure if that's right either. If I'm moving angles, the splay is generally constant. I was at +12/-6 for a couple of years too, and it did feel good.


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## OU812 (Feb 2, 2013)




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## kieloa (Sep 20, 2019)

Ugh, that monoskier looks silly!

I like +21+3 on my boards ?


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## 16gkid (Dec 5, 2012)

Just tried double posi this week and it's been fun, little weird hitting kickers but heelside feels better, went 21, 9 on my simple pleasures, put that back to duck and setup my new k2 Overboard with 24,12


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