# The hardboot ride...downhill?



## wrathfuldeity

Just some thoughts on riding in hardboots...since I haven't seen much but the statement that the ride down is less than desirable than with soft boots.

Thoughts on hardboot riding:
So currently have 6 days with hards-on...its like taking Viagra. Moi, 60yrs, 5”6”, 172 lbs (goal to get to 160), boot size 24 mondo, stance +15, -6, width 23.5, 17 seasons, gezzerily freeriding advanced a with the goal of getting off the hill, i.e., surviving in one piece after the day at Mt Baker.

Equipment: 
Atomic Backland boots women’s non-carbon, mondo24, professionally heat moulded shells (highly recommended Frank at BackCountry Essentials), liners and bits of foam bits with Sole aftermarket insoles….socks are thin smart wool liners (not socks).

Amplid Creamer 163, self-cut diy split with pro inserts done by Johnny Lupo at Boardworks (highly recommended). Standard plastic K clips at the nose/tail and Sparks R&D CrossBars clamps.

Phantom Bindings, small, with the 3in1 cleats, their risers and the Dynafit tech toes. 

Just a couple remarks about the board with Phantoms…frick’s outstanding…light, love creamer’s cam profile…it rips and with the Phamtoms and Spark Crossbars…it rides just like a solid. I had ridden ½ season on the Creamer as a solid with softboots 32 focus boas women 7.5 and some old metal Ride SPI’s and loved it…and then cut it in half on my tablesaw. 

Hard boot fitting and mods:
Well the boots after the initial heat fitting, felt great in the shop…but on the hill there were immediate hot spots and heel lift. Back home and to the shop, did a few tweaks…better but still some spots and my foot did not have the locked down feeling…thus feeling abit discouraged, questioning my decision to go the hardboot route and thinking the reports were true, i.e., hard boots definitely had something to be desired when in ride mode. A two more days of bringing scissors, foam and bits of tape to the hill with trips to the lodge to do some cutting and adjustments…much improved. Lastly, at home, another 2-3 hours of fitment and sanding foam bits, final positioning, glue up of the foam bits to the liner and then covered with hurricane nylon tape. In general, the bits and pieces ended up being similar to all the mods that I’ve done to my soft boot liners (see the old pics to the liners in the boot faq thread, pics in link of the first post).

The Fitment:
So yesterday, spent the day with the set up…and it felt great, no taking the boots off, foot felt locked down, plenty of room for the toots, no hot spots, felt like my soft boot slippers but stiffer and more responsive. With the boots in ride mode, plastic tongue removed/not used, power strap was used but slack loose, leg cuff set comfortably but not cinched down for some room for play, (used a bit of foam on the liner’s tongue that helps push the foot back and keeps the heel in the pocket) and not using the liner’s lacing system. And the lower buckle hooked up. So basically, using the boot as it was designed. ***The 2 key pieces of fitment were getting the heel/ankle locked down with a ½ butterfly foam and using foam on the tongue’s liner to help push/keep the heel in to the pocket. So in general, when boots are tightened up there is plenty of room for the foot and the lower leg is snug. And then in the bent knee ride position the foot is pushed back in to the pocket. 

The Boot Ride:
It is fantastic, the board runs like an arrow, straight and true. A ton of control and response, which I like and the adjustment time was about ½ day. On chopped terrain, there is a lot less wiggling and squirrling; the focus is more of absorption via sucking up the knees and riding low and attending to keeping your body’s stack and alignment flowing the line. Blasting groomers is a blast, the stiffness of the boot is confidence inspiring and assured. Heelside or toeside…just lean into the stiffness of the boot’s cuff and let it leverage your running edge and let the board run. A quick speed check and pop back on the running edge…no problem. Quick and short S turns and cross-unders are fast and again assured. As for big arching trenches….just initiate, set and feel the G’s suck you down. Within 3-4 runs I was blasting groomers an estimated 10mph faster, confidently and comfortably hitting 60 mph. A few more runs and was able to keep up and pass some of skiers in the crew…letting the board run to its capacity and then being able to play with drag, i.e., standing up to slow down or squat/tuck to reduce air drag…this was on day 4 and the boots were hurting from pressure points on the instep, hotspot on the ankle bone and with some significant heel lift. But, it was fun blasting the fall line, stand straight up and then getting ready to go airborne over the rollers. Day 5 was spent doing a run or 2 and then going back in to the lodge and making adjustments with scissors, foam and tape and then going back out for a run or two. The this past week spent an afternoon’s 2-3 hours doing the final tweaking. Yesterday’s 5-6 inches of fresh dry powder at 21 degrees F…only issue is the bigness of yer smile…whether hitting groomed to the next pow pactch, aggressively hitting off piste steeps of hairy scary, lower chicken ridge, upper gunner’s or gabl’s. The boots stayed on all day. The buckles were unlatched for 30 minute lunch and then just quickly re-buckled and ready to ride the rest of the afternoon….it was easier and more comfortable than loosening the inter laces and boas of the 32 and then re-tightening it all.

The Cons:
Price of entry is steep for the Atomic Backlands (found the prior year’s for 50% discount), Amplid Creamer (found a prior years solid board that was a lightly used demo for 50% discount). And the prior years Phantom binding system for 30% discount (due to the seller had purchased smalls and they were a tad too small). All this cheapness took about 1 year and I had to wait for a set of 3in1 cleats because they were sold out and due to the Creamer being a diy split :facepalm1:.

On heelside, there is a bit of calf bite, especially on long heelside traverses, but otherwise its not noticeable perhaps due to having fun otherwise.

As for boot fitting and mods…I haven’t felt there is any reason for major mods of cutting down cuffs, making slits for increasing lateral flex; but there is a commitment and perseverance that is required to get the fitment dialed in. it took 6 days of riding (the first 4 were painful), an initial 1 hour bootfitter heating and modding, aftermarket insoles, 2nd trip to the boot fitters for some major foam mods…from C’s to L’s (even tried a heel lift…NO) and then a 3rd trip for half butterflies and then 2 days of diy on mtn fitting with foam and scissors and lastly, 2-3 hours of at home final adjustments. Yesterday’s the boots were fitting like golden slippers. However, I’m expecting the liners to pack out a bit more and the plan is then to up my socks from thin merino liners to smartwool phd ultra light socks and/or maybe use/re-insert the plastic tongues or perhaps a 1/8” boot shim under the liner.

The Summary:
I am a fan of the Atomic Backland (non carbon) hardboots. If you can afford and don’t mind the price of entry…there is a significate increase in performance and with some determination these boots were able to be modded to fit like and perform better than my softboots. So at least for me, been able to dispel the thought that the hardboot ride down is less than using soft boots. Infact thinking about how to convert my resort boards to using the Atomic non carbon Backlands. 

Side notes:
Instead of the Phantom Alpha Ride system a person could go with their current solid board, use the One Binding solid puck system and use the Spark tesla Dyna DH hardboot bindings. Thus kind of looking to pick up some Spark Dyna DH to use on my solid boards and an old alpine race board.

Also the Phantom system, has tight tolerances; in transitioning from tour to ride mode, you have to make sure your board halves are lined up perfectly, otherwise the plates will not rotate on to the cleats. And there is the rear foot heelside bail that is a tad of a pain, in that when you go to clamp in, the rear bail tends to fall/drop/not catch and it takes 1-2 times to make sure you got the bail caught. To which I’ve been thinking of wrapping the bail with a piece of rubberized electrical/wiring tape, the part that fits under the block or perhaps seeing if the bail/to block could be spot welded for a more permanent solution. 

In researching, the SplitBoard Fourm, there are some ideas to make the Atomic Backland highback latch to be progressive on heelside from a “hard stop” to spring loaded and also being a progressive forward flex…and also a having an adjustable forward lean with the latch (…haven’t seen it but it is rumored that Phantom is tinkering with an aftermarket latch that will work on the Atomic Backland boots). Any it will be interesting to see what they develop and it could be a nice thing…but not a necessity.

I’d recommend considereing the new Phantom/Sparks colab tech toes instead of the Dynafit tech toes due to less parts and re-inforced areas. 

Anyway moi 2 cents :hairy:


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## Scalpelman

Nice write up. I especially like the part about “passing the skiers.”


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## Kenai

Excellent write up. Thanks. 

I going to get a ration of shit for this question, and you might not know the answer, but with all the boot mods you’ve done could you still use them as AT boots with skis, you know, if someone put a gun to your head and made you ski?

Also, I assume the uphill travel is significantly more stable laterally than with soft boots?


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## wrathfuldeity

Kenai said:


> Excellent write up. Thanks.
> 
> I going to get a ration of shit for this question, and you might not know the answer, but with all the boot mods you’ve done could you still use them as AT boots with skis, you know, if someone put a gun to your head and made you ski?
> 
> Also, I assume the uphill travel is significantly more stable laterally than with soft boots?


Oh yea, can still ski, tour and ride. So if yer one of the cool kids, that AT skis, splitboard or solids and do resort and BC ... all ya need is one set of boots. I don't ski...but apparently one of the issues with downhill skiing is the AT boots might not be stiff enough and perhaps some release issues...that is if one is an agressive dh skier.

Have only done a wee bit of touring...because I wanted to get the fit dialed in before getting way out and then be in pain...but ya the touring is at a whole other enlightening level...waaaay better than in softies....AND lighter too.


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## wrathfuldeity

A couple of other things I forgot:

This whole hardboot set up is light, so I found it easy to do billygoat or jump turns and more importantly able to land these turns with the edges dug in...thus more assured feeling on the steep bits where these turns are perhaps vital. Basically more easier and efficiently able to dig in edges both on toe and heel sides when side slipping some gnarls. Me thinks that the combination of light weight and stiffness really gives the feeling of being agile but also having solid performance assuredness with less effort which results in an enhanced level of efficiency and performance that I was not expecting.

I think the stiffness of the boots and lightness of the setup helped in negotiating moguls...and found there was plenty of flexibility to work my legs independently.

Calf bite...It might be that I don't have much issue with calf bite is because I'm a guy using the women's version of the Atomic Backlands, which has the less stiff non-carbon cuffs and the cuffs are designed (? idk) lower due to women's calf anatomy. Idk if this design thing is correct because I've never tried on the carbon men's version due to they don't make them in mondo 24.

Also found that by flipping the walk/ride latch up/disengaged, these boots are comparatively easy to get on/off and it is easy to pull out the liners out of the shells to get things dried out.

Lastly, perhaps due to the above feeling of enhanced level of efficiency and performance I felt I could ride more aggressively...but the more probably due to me being fat and gezzerily I was feeling it today...sore worked legs and lower back...but was pushing it due to having some pretty good bluebird pow conditions.


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## Scalpelman

The whole notion of hard booting just makes sense to me. As I progress to seeking out higher speeds it occurs to me that I’m seeking out stiffer and more responsive boots and bindings. 

My questions:

1. Did you find that moguls were easy to negotiate? How about trees? How was it compared to soft boots?

2. Did you use a board that you previously used for soft boots or did you get a board better designed for hard booting (or is there such a thing?).


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## wrathfuldeity

The Amplid Creamer 163 was a solid board and had used soft boots for 1/2 season...but I cut it in half and am now riding with the hardboots. But due to the Crossbars and phantoms...it still feels like when it was a solid. But the board does come as a factory made split. It has early rise nose and camber under foot.

I'm not a good tree rider...but I'm doing moguls better than I've ever done...but that might be because I'm riding a bit better...however feel I've more quick agility/control/response with the stiff boots.


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## Kenai

wrathfuldeity said:


> ...I'm a guy using the women's version of the Atomic Backlands ... I've never tried on the carbon men's version due to they don't make them in mondo 24.


Remind me, you still have pretty wide feet, right? My dogs are 243mm, but wide, so if I go this route I have to make sure the shell can be blown out, if necessary, to accommodate the width.


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## wrathfuldeity

Scalpelman said:


> The whole notion of hard booting just makes sense to me. As I progress to seeking out higher speeds it occurs to me that I’m seeking out stiffer and more responsive boots and bindings.
> 
> My questions:
> 
> 1. Did you find that moguls were easy to negotiate? How about trees? How was it compared to soft boots?
> 
> 2. Did you use a board that you previously used for soft boots or did you get a board better designed for hard booting (or is there such a thing?).


1. Kind of hard to say, in that the I’m finding it easier, i.e., improving my bump riding skill-wise and in the trees (but far from good). Me thinks because the set up is so light, it is easier to flick the board around. Also due to the stiffiness of the boots it seems easier and more precise to engage and set the edge. Last Saturday riding some good sized tight bumps was able to set it and then pop to the next edge…not that I was good but it did to feel that I had more control/potential to make it happen. There was less fighting and more riding the bumps…if that makes sense.
2. Yes, the Amplid was a solid resort board…then I cut it…but as a split with the Crossbars and Phantoms, it still rides like a solid. And yes there are boards that are made more for hardboots…like alpine racing boards, euro carve boards and perhaps boarder cross boards. There is/was “bomber on-line” community/forum that was quite a good resource of information…but idk if it is still active. However, if you wanted to do hardboots on a solid board…the hardbood race plates are certainly less spendy than the Phantoms that are designed for bc splitting. This past summer, thanks to @timmytard I picked up 2 alpine race boards and a set of plates…and now that the Backlands are fitting well, I will be trying out these before season’s end.

edit: another thing, is because of the stiff boot, imo/e you can ride a tad wider and longer board due to being able to really apply leverage/pressure to the edges. My usual go to softboot resort board is an old stiff FR cambered Option 158...but with the hardboots, the 163 Amplid Creamer is very comfortable and doesn't really seem that it is .75cm wider and 5 cm longer.

edit2: Forgot to mention, I also have an old c2btx Gnu BillyGoat 159 factory split that has Sparks R&D tesla Afterburners with upgraded flipngo Surge highbacks with 32 focus boas boots. It is a burls, reliable, rips the natty and KISS set up...but it is a heavy mutha, feels relatively dead...it feels that it weighs twice as much as the backland/amplid/phantom set up. Don't get me wrong, the Billy/Sparks is a solid set up...but perhaps being gezzerily, I've become a weight weenie.


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## wrathfuldeity

Kenai said:


> Remind me, you still have pretty wide feet, right? My dogs are 243mm, but wide, so if I go this route I have to make sure the shell can be blown out, if necessary, to accommodate the width.


I think they are wide for such small/short feet. I just measured them at the widest point...left is 10.2cm and right is 10.0cm. In my boots, I'm using a pair of Ed Viesturs blue "SOLE" insoles which are pretty high volume and has a healthy amount of height for high arch/insteps. So when the Backlands were first heated, they were part of the moulding process, i.e., inside the liner. One of my last mods, for the right boot (because it was a tad tight and had a bothersome hotspot on the top of my foot. To which, I did 2 things. First was to sand down the bottom of the right "Sole" insole, took off maybe a 1/16" of the hard plastic bottom that was under the front/fore front of the insole using my small benchtop belt sander. And second, I used a blow/heat gun (or hand held hair dryer) and heated up shell/liner at the bothersome spot...of course I taped a small bit of foam on the foot's hotspot, then slipped on my liner sock, put the boot on and buckled it up...followed by heating up the boot in just that specific area...just to get it warmed up...Not melting...then stood still for about 10-15 minutes for the shell and liner to cool. It worked like a charm. 

As for your question about if the boot can be blown/punched out...(I'd recommend you give Frank at Backcountry Essentials 1-360-543-5678 a quick call and if you make up this way, either order a pair or get them online and make a bootfitting appointment with Frank...he is the local go to fitter that has been doing it for decades and he is familiar with the specific issues of hardboots for us splitty riders.) 

The women's version of the Backland has the Grilamid Shell & Cuff which is heat mouldable and more flexible...verses the men's version iirc only comes with the carbon cuff, which is not heat mouldable.


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## wrathfuldeity

Update...this past Saturday...another day, heavenly...so much more performance and so comfortable...didn't even loosen the buckles during lunch. Hardboots for allmtn freeriding...is the shitz....so great. And sparks dyno dh's should be arriving this afternoon :grin:


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## Mig Fullbag

I have been thinking for a long while about tinkering with a pair of AT boots and some Phantom bindings for my regular riding. Ever since the Backlands came out, the thought has been running through my mind more often as each day passes.


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## wrathfuldeity

Mig Fullbag said:


> I have been thinking for a long while about tinkering with a pair of AT boots and some Phantom bindings for my regular riding. Ever since the Backlands came out, the thought has been running through my mind more often as each day passes.


Phantoms if you are going down the split path

One Binding System with Sparks Dyno DH if you are going to stay on a solid board...its about 1/2 the cost of the whole Phantom setup. 

Someone said you cant feel the board snow as much....which is somewhat true...but then again you also don't feel all the little bothersome stuff either.

http://www.onebindingsystems.com/

https://www.sparkrandd.com/gear/dyno-dh/


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## Rip154

Think the phantoms have a quiver solution too.


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## wrathfuldeity

Rip154 said:


> Think the phantoms have a quiver solution too.


oh yea, its their 3in1 cleat, can be used on diy splits, factory splity and solids.


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## pipidulce

wrathfuldeity said:


> There is/was “bomber on-line” community/forum that was quite a good resource of information…but idk if it is still active.


Very much alive over at forums.alpinesnowboarder.com


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## wrathfuldeity

pipidulce said:


> Very much alive over at forums.alpinesnowboarder.com


Thanks, I'll check in over there.


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## nuisanceIV

Scalpelman said:


> The whole notion of hard booting just makes sense to me. As I progress to seeking out higher speeds it occurs to me that I’m seeking out stiffer and more responsive boots and bindings.
> 
> My questions:
> 
> 1. Did you find that moguls were easy to negotiate? How about trees? How was it compared to soft boots?
> 
> 2. Did you use a board that you previously used for soft boots or did you get a board better designed for hard booting (or is there such a thing?).


Hey, I know it has been a while but maybe I can give some insight so you can make the decision whether you want to get into it. I started hardbooting since this December, and I've put in at least 15+ days into it. I never was a park dude, and would usually just carve around and go through ungroomed terrain. I was immediately hooked once I tried the boots, riding them on groomers is an amazing time.

Once I got used to the boots and got teching them right, bumps were really easy to rip through, but you really need to exercise proper technique. Smacking into the boots can hurt if you aren't used to it/conditioned for it. They're also easier to skate or crouch down once you're used to them, since the boot can support you... It's fun going into wacky poses in the lift line/at the top. The boots also make controlling your board easier at higher speeds, and I found carving on them to be easier than skidding tbh.

There are boards designed with hardboots in mind, alpine boards, they're usually like slalom, GS, BX, and carving boards. They're extremely stiff, and usually very narrow(We're talking 17cm waist width, etc) for fast edge changes, full camber. If your board is really soft you run the risk of overpowering it. My old BX board I'm able to use both softboots and hardboots on. When I use softboots it's mega aggressive and sendy; when I use hardboots it's a more "playful", agile ride. On my carving board it's crazy, I'll make half circles, big ollies, and hop turns.

Cheers


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## smellysell

Being a complete noob to splitboard, what are the benefits of hard boots for touring?

Saw a guy in the lift line the other day in hard boots and a solid board, but with poles?

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## Myoko

Why didn't you do the power strap up tightly as I would imagine anything that reduces the gap at the top of your boots would provide more instant response in your turns. No idea why normal snowboard boot manufacturers have not worked that out when every ski boot manufacturer has years ago.


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## wrathfuldeity

smellysell said:


> Being a complete noob to splitboard, what are the benefits of hard boots for touring?
> 
> Saw a guy in the lift line the other day in hard boots and a solid board, but with poles?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


The benefit of hard boots are the efficiency, with the Atomic Backland boots you can have a full stride, they are stiffer laterally so when on a traverse you don't roll your ankle toward the downhill edge...and it is often a lighter setup on the leg...so less tiring.


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## wrathfuldeity

Myoko said:


> Why didn't you do the power strap up tightly as I would imagine anything that reduces the gap at the top of your boots would provide more instant response in your turns. No idea why normal snowboard boot manufacturers have not worked that out when every ski boot manufacturer has years ago.


I've done the power strap/binding/boot thing with my softboots both on resort set up and on the splitty spark afterburner, 32 focus boa set up...it works and there is an improvement...but not nearly as much as with AT hardboots.

Btw...there were back in the day some iirc burton bindings with the 3rd strap and highbacks with wings.


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## Myoko

There is a reason why Olympic skiers use a product called "booster strap' and the snowboard boot equivalent is a product called Strapins. The pissy little strap some manufacturers have at the top of both snowboard and ski boots is quite useless as you can't really crank it up and it is often to narrow for the job I have found.

Haven't ridden in them myself, but I can imagine hard boots are very responsive and would suit certain riding styles more.


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## poser

Myoko said:


> There is a reason why Olympic skiers use a product called "booster strap' and the snowboard boot equivalent is a product called Strapins. The pissy little strap some manufacturers have at the top of both snowboard and ski boots is quite useless as you can't really crank it up and it is often to narrow for the job I have found.
> 
> 
> 
> Haven't ridden in them myself, but I can imagine hard boots are very responsive and would suit certain riding styles more.




I bought some Strapins -they need to be upgraded with metal buckles. I broke one of the plastic buckles the first time I cinched it tonight.


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## wrathfuldeity

poser said:


> I bought some Strapins -they need to be upgraded with metal buckles. I broke one of the plastic buckles the first time I cinched it tonight.


For soft boots and to wrap the binding highbacks to the boot, I've used some 2-3" wide velcro straps with metal loops cannibalized from some old walking cast boots from the thrift store. The rectangular metal loops didn't work great because they would slip longways...but you could rig them with D ring/loop and it would work better.


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## Myoko

poser said:


> I bought some Strapins -they need to be upgraded with metal buckles. I broke one of the plastic buckles the first time I cinched it tonight.


Must have been a while ago, these are mine I bought late last year I think, no chance of breaking. Their website states they offer a full refund or replacement if any issues so I hope you followed them back up.


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## poser

Myoko said:


> Must have been a while ago, these are mine I bought late last year I think, no chance of breaking. Their website states they offer a full refund or replacement if any issues so I hope you followed them back up.




Interesting. I bought mine back in March of this year.


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## Myoko

I can only imagine you said something to them about it and have ones like mine now. Mad if you didn't.


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## wrathfuldeity

Phantom Link Levers...update. The links levers arrived and tried. They were OK and did what was claimed. However using the non-carbon Backlands, the link levers were not needed. I rode them 1 day and felt there was too much forward range and the bit of backward give was nice but not needed. I was surprised that the GREEN/stiffest springs did not offer much resistance and seemed too soft...(range is green/stiff for riders 160+ lbs...I'm 170#). So I put the stock links back on. However perhaps using the carbon cuff version these levers would be more useful.




http://www.phantomsnow.com/shop/link-levers-for-atomic-backlands


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## Mig Fullbag

@wrathfuldeity have you done the mod to move the lower buckle up on the pivot?


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## wrathfuldeity

Mig Fullbag said:


> @wrathfuldeity have you done the mod to move the lower buckle up on the pivot?


No, I've heard of it but have not really investigated. At one time I thought the cable across the instep was pretty tight and it is definitely snug on my feet. However the new models have the boa. I'd think Atomic could probably easily come up with a double boa on this boot. But the buckles are nice because of the KISS design.


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## Mig Fullbag

wrathfuldeity said:


> No, I've heard of it but have not really investigated. At one time I thought the cable across the instep was pretty tight and it is definitely snug on my feet. However the new models have the boa. I'd think Atomic could probably easily come up with a double boa on this boot. But the buckles are nice because of the KISS design.


Check out the pics on the Phantom Link Levers page you posted. There's a pic with a black boot and a white boot. The white one seems to have the mod done.


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## Mig Fullbag

wrathfuldeity said:


> No, I've heard of it but have not really investigated. At one time I thought the cable across the instep was pretty tight and it is definitely snug on my feet. However the new models have the boa. I'd think Atomic could probably easily come up with a double boa on this boot. But the buckles are nice because of the KISS design.


I think Boa might make it better for micro adjustments but buckles probably make it much easier to duplicate the same level of tightness from day to day or run to run.


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## wrathfuldeity

Mig Fullbag said:


> Check out the pics on the Phantom Link Levers page you posted. There's a pic with a black boot and a white boot. The white one seems to have the mod done.


Mig, I just did the mod of switching the buckle to the pivot and tried on the boots...but have not gone out to ride them. The mod took 5 minutes and very easy. There is less pressure over the instep and more on the ankle, so I'd think its a tad better at helping to lock down the heel in the pocket. Also the link levers, I'm going to try to remove the spring for the forward flex (too much range) but keep the rubber bushing for the backward dampening. It would be good to have a tad more fwd lean and a bit of dampening rearward. Plan is to work on the link lever mod and give them another try...maybe ride wed/thursday or saturday.

Yesterday was a whiteout dump riding knee deep and waist deep to bottomless if I biffed...was quite fun but feeling it today.


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## Mig Fullbag

wrathfuldeity said:


> Mig, I just did the mod of switching the buckle to the pivot and tried on the boots...but have not gone out to ride them. The mod took 5 minutes and very easy. There is less pressure over the instep and more on the ankle, so I'd think its a tad better at helping to lock down the heel in the pocket. Also the link levers, I'm going to try to remove the spring for the forward flex (too much range) but keep the rubber bushing for the backward dampening. It would be good to have a tad more fwd lean and a bit of dampening rearward. Plan is to work on the link lever mod and give them another try...maybe ride wed/thursday or saturday.
> 
> Yesterday was a whiteout dump riding knee deep and waist deep to bottomless if I biffed...was quite fun but feeling it today.


Thanks for the update!!! Please, let me know how it feels once you get to ride the mod. I am definitely leaning towards giving this setup a try next year.


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## wrathfuldeity

Review of moving the lower buckle to the pivot. Well it does hold the ankle down and back. However, for me it was a tad uncomfortable and pinchy. I'll give it another day, but not yet convinced its better for me.


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## wrathfuldeity

Phantom Link Levers initial thoughts and mod.

Atomic Backland convert, mondo 24, women’s version with grilamid shell and cuff; 170#, Amplid Creamer 163 diy split, Phantom alpha ride/tour, upgraded Phantom tech toes and now Phantom link levers at Baker. Also using the Backland boots for all my riding; resort and BC.

The stock Backland levers seemingly work ok and have managed to ride fine due to the grilamid cuff is flexible enough and easily adjusted using the top buckle and power strap to dial in flex and movement from loose to stiff performance. The issue with the stock levers is that you can not easily adjust the forward lean without a mod. Some folks (mainly with the carbon version) note that cuffs are stiff but primarily there is no gradual forward and backward transition flex/give. Also, there is the issue is at the end of the flex range is a “hard stop” without much gradient nor dampness. Therefore, the Phantom Link Levers were apparently developed to address these issues.

The stock Phantom Link Levers, ordered the stiffest “Green” springs rated for 160+ lbs riders. They look to be well made, sturdy and up to the task.

After one day of use: My issue with the stock Link Levers, with the green spring: There was too much range of forward flex and there was not enough resistance provided by the springs. I imagine in part due to the more flexible non-carbon grilamid cuff…however with the stiff carbon cuffs the springs and range might work better. The backward dampening worked well. However, the top rubber bushing/washers that are used to dampen the backward movement appears that it will not hold up for very long.

My issues with the Phantom link levers: The green spring was too soft which resulted in too much forward flex range that kind of threw me in to being over-committed on toeside edge. And the backward dampening rubber bushing felt rather harsh and was not going to be very durable.

The Mod: I removed the spring and the rubber damping washers and replaced them with hose. Specifically, car/auto vacuum line (softer) for the backward dampening bushing and gas/radiator line for the forward flex (stiffer) to replace the spring. Each piece of line was the same length of the bushing and the spring. Then adjusted the forward lean/angle from the 70mm (which is the Backland's stock lever non-adjustible distance) to 75mm (length from pivot pin to latching pin). Tried 80mm and it was too much forward lean. Also tried the softer vacuum line where the spring sits and it compressed too much. The cost of the vacuum line was under $1 for a 12” and the stiffer gas/radiator line was about $1.80 for 12”…enough line for 3-4 sets of the link levers mods.

Tools: 10mm open box wrench,
2 philips head screw drivers,
Silicone grease or spray to easily slip the hoses over the rod (but its not required),
Metric ruler to measure the distance of the pins,
Blue loctite

Mod Results: In bounds/resort at Baker, with 6” of fresh typical PNW wet heavy cream cheese poo, firm groomers in the morning and sugar groomers in the afternoon. Riding an old Option stiffy freeride full cambered board, Sparks One Binding pucks and Spark Dyno DH bindings. The car/auto lines/hoses worked well. There was enough dampening both forward and back and the flex was firm, predictable in a significantly reduced range that resulted in the ability to dig in the edges and easily get the board up on toe and heel edges. Actually, the board, binding and boots felt more like an extension of my body with the ability to feel the snow/board and have excellent responsiveness of a well-tuned integration of the parts. Had memorable runs from top to bottom of chair 8, going skier’s left of the old terrain park that weaves around and hooks up the chair 7 to 8 groomer run. It was flat out flying over rollers, straight lining the dips…scary fun. Am sure at times, hitting mid 50’s mph without issue. Other runs were “death star” and the natural half pipe where the LBS runs. The set up felt solid, stable and assured.

***Note recently Phantom sent out a email note, that the 1st and 2nd production runs there was an issue of the pivot pin screws coming loose and falling out. The recommend fix was to use some blue Loctite…there is a youtube vid. There is also a youtube vid that shows you how to switch out the springs.

An email to Phantom and they are aware of the rubber bushing issue and apparently working on a up-grade for next year…I suggested that perhaps the material could be a more durable poly material bushing like what is used on front end suspensions on cars and for skate board trucks. Also noted thinking about replacing the spring with a metal tube to eliminate or reduce the range of the forward flex. However, upon further thought, figured that the hose lines would be a better place to start and a idea; and I’m very satisfied with the results.

The top/thicker hose is the gas/radiator line and the bottom/smaller line is vacuum line.









The small bushing above the square nut is the stock rubber bushing that consists of 2 rubber washers


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## wrathfuldeity

Mig Fullbag said:


> Thanks for the update!!! Please, let me know how it feels once you get to ride the mod. I am definitely leaning towards giving this setup a try next year.


Mig,
Lower buckle mod of moving to the pivot point:

So day 2 with the above Link Lever mods. For the time being, I'm going to stay with moving the lower buckle to the outside pivot point. Its still just a tad uncomfortable but not at all bothersome. There is absolutely no heel lift and my foot feels locked down in a performance fit. Railing carves, responsiveness in the above noted conditions felt very stable and assured...it is worth doing despite the tad comfortableness. Btw kept the buckles and straps locked down all day, even during lunch.


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## wrathfuldeity

Mig,
I saw, iirc in the Atomic Backland thread at splitboard.com a pic of just adding a short piece (1-2-3cm) of ladder plastic between the pivot screw...using a piece of ladder and then a small bolt to attach the lower buckle. This gives a bit more space and adjustment...instead of just mounting the buckle on the pivot...which might be helpful for folks needing abit more range.


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## Mig Fullbag

@wrathfuldeity I heard Phantom will be selling a fully modded version of the Backland Ultimate. They are looking into using elastomers instead of springs in the link lever, velcro straps / booster straps (no buckles), looking into wrap liners, etc... Should be pretty interesting to see how this develops.


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## wrathfuldeity

Mig Fullbag said:


> @wrathfuldeity I heard Phantom will be selling a fully modded version of the Backland Ultimate. They are looking into using elastomers instead of springs in the link lever, velcro straps / booster straps (no buckles), looking into wrap liners, etc... Should be pretty interesting to see how this develops.


Ha, maybe they liked my cheap ass elastomers idea. I really think for some splitters, board crossers and carvers; AT boots are going become the thing. I've hit the natty half pipe where the Baker LBS runs and have a ton more control and speed and "death star" is really fun to rip, its like a mini LBS course. You got to do some of these with your boards.


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## wrathfuldeity

2 year update:
So it's now Jan 2021, I've used my 32 focus boas exactly twice since getting the Backlands. First a side note, put the removable Backland plastic tongues in the 32's between the liner and tongue of soft boot shell. They fit very well and made the boot muuuch more stiffer...it was great.

Now to the points of the updates:
1. Ordered longer shell cable, they come in short, medium and long. The stock cable was short for my women's mondo 24; got the mediums they were a few mm's longer. The medium cables worked great and relieved just the tad of ankle/instep pinch that was remaining.

2. Also sanded down the bottom of the aftermarket insoles...maybe another .25mm just to get a tad more toe wiggle room...worked great.

3. Also took my heat gun (or use a hair dryer) to blow out a tad more big toe width of my right foot. To do this, use a pad of self-adhesive boot fitting foam between my big toe and the second toe ... and added a pad on the outside of my big toe. Then slip over a thin wicking liner or nylon to hold the pads in place while you get your foot in the liner (liner is already in the boot shell), it feels real tight...duh. Followed by using the hair dryer or heat gun to heat up the shell on the side of the big toe area. Just warm up the plastic shell (this also might work for soft boots...but be mindful that the glue of the soft boot might fail). After the shell is warmed...you should feel some...a tad of warmth in your foot. When everything is warmed, stand in your riding athletic stance...while gently tapping the warmed area with a small hammer or preferably a small rubber/plastic mallet. It only takes a few 6-10 taps...this just helps to get the plastic shell to move a bit better. Continue to remain standing still in your athletic stance until the boot cools off 10-15 minutes. If you want it to cool faster, put a cold pack or a bag of ice on it. Lastly, remove your foot, take off the thin sock liner and remove the boot fitting foam bits. Then put your foot back in and you should have just about the right amount of blow out room for the tootsies.

3.5 I did the above mod/adjustment to the shell, because I was starting to get a slightly painful callous/corn between my big toe and second toe. I also sanded/dremeled the corn/callous right off...ahhh happy feet!

4. Ime AT boots are where its AT...because:
a. They are more comfortable and a performance slipper...even better than my 32's with the stiff tongue.
b. They are adaptable...resort, bc touring...and could even do bc ski touring...a 1 boot do it all.
c. With the levers (I use modded Phantom link levers...see above posts) you can adjust forward lean, adjust the tension and range of flex via spring, rubber line and adjusting the top buckle and/or the velcro power strap...highly adjustable to rider/tourer preference.
d. Via the link levers' ride and tour mode, leave both the levers in tour mode for a pow surfer/no binding experience. Or leave the rear boot in tour mode for a surf/ride experience. Or lock both the levers down for the standard ride mode and shred as usual.
e. With both boots/levers in ride mode, there is a SIGNIFICANT/QUANTIUM leap in performance...there is much more control, response and stability...high speed blasting groomers, flicking through moguls, riding flats, 1 footed skating and short 1-footed adventures and chair dismount has all improved at least 100% if not more.
f. AT boots are spendy and an investment in time and fitting, however they should last at least a few years and then when considering the comfort and performance its a no brainer. Infact, I have bought another pair of Backlands and a spare 3rd pair of liners when and thus anticipate that I will get close to or at least 10 years of riding before needing to address the boot issue. So far...1st pair of nib backlands $300, 2nd pair were 2 day demos $250, extra liner $120, Phantom Link Levers $200, pro boot fitting $50 (won't have to do that again...cause now I know), $20 for the medium shell cable, $2 for rubber mods for the Link Levers and $10 for boot fitting foam to do butterfly wraps and ect. So a bit under $1000 for an anticipated 10+ years of riding = $100/year of boot expense....and considering the utilitarian adaptability, adjustability, slipper comfort and performance worth every frick'n penny.

***a bit of a disclaimer...I do not recommend going this route for a new-intermediate...and perhaps an advanced rider UNTIL you are 110% sure you got your feet size, boot fitment strategy and riding preferences dialed/sorted...and committed to the sport.


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## wrathfuldeity

Forgot to add:

I also went back to the 70mm length from pivot pin to latching pin on the Link Levers because it was a little too much heelside bias. And I've changed from +16, -6 to +21,0 angles at 23.5" width and loving it.


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## BoardieK

If you were riding with a more forward stance is it possible to add canting under the rear heel with your setup?


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## wrathfuldeity

BoardieK said:


> If you were riding with a more forward stance is it possible to add canting under the rear heel with your setup?


@BoardieK that's quite a thought and I'm intrigued. Idk if there is a way to do canting on just the heel via the dyno dh bindings unless you do some puck mods. Iirc bomber/catek plates allow for rear binding heel cants. But you might be able to put or mod a higher welt insert on the replaceable heel welt of the rear AT boot. If you did that, the heel bails of the dyno dh's could adjust for the higher welt...I probably try that first because it would be cheap and easily reversible.


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## ridethecliche

Couldn't you also trim down a heel wedge inside the boot itself. I guess that might totally throw off the fit though.


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## wrathfuldeity

wrathfuldeity said:


> @BoardieK that's quite a thought and I'm intrigued. Idk if there is a way to do canting on just the heel via the dyno dh bindings unless you do some puck mods. Iirc bomber/catek plates allow for rear binding heel cants. But you might be able to put or mod a higher welt insert on the replaceable heel welt of the rear AT boot. If you did that, the heel bails of the dyno dh's could adjust for the higher welt...I probably try that first because it would be cheap and easily reversible.


@BoardieK I forgot that the backlands don't have the replaceable welt...but looking at them, it would be easy to just ad a some welt from an old piece of virbram sole and use a couple of screws and/or freesole/aquaseal SR+ and glue it on.


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## wrathfuldeity

Dec 2021. Been working in Santas shop making some bootpack plates. Somewhat similar to Billygoat ascender plates for kicking/stomping in a steep boot pack...which the Verts are not quite set up to do. Hope to field test later this week.

Billy Goat Technologies

TOUR – Phantom Snow Industries verts


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## Peyto

wrathfuldeity said:


> Dec 2021. Been working in Santas shop making some bootpack plates. Somewhat similar to Billygoat ascender plates for kicking/stomping in a steep boot pack...which the Verts are not quite set up to do. Hope to field test later this week.


How'd this end up working for you? I picked up BG Ascender Plates and found they made a world of difference. Hard to say how much of a role the crampon played in it, but there was a nice thick crust about 50cm down that gave the front points and the plates nice hold. Anyways, awesome to see your tinkering - makes some sense to have an option that uses a binding you already carry instead of a crampon (although the Petzl Irvis Hybrid weighs basically nothing and packs down tight).


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## wrathfuldeity

Okay fruitcakes a summer mod to the old AT Backlands. So now that I like the idea of the ankle strap pivot attachments. Improved heel hold, less pressures issues on the instep and foot/toe issues and even more KISS. I went online and the P-mods for $99 were sold out. So being an old codger got me think’n…always a dangerous thing. Going to the hardware store I got a couple ideas. But then slept on things… and it all became so clear.



So, the first idea was to use a piece of picture hanger do hickey do a loop. The second idea was to manufacturer out of a piece of thin aluminum bar basically a washer with the tab and a small hole in which to run the cable through and either loop or do an adjustable/screw down cable stop. And this would align the pivot washers more flat instead of being wonky like with the picture hanger. I think all of these would work.











However after sleeping on it, the thought occurred let’s see what’s under the cloth covered part of the buckle…”I bet there’s just a cable stop or it was molded in. If the cable is moulded in the alumium piece, it could be drilled out and then use a cable stop.” Behold it was a mere cable stop. Thus, below is a step by step description and some pictures. At the hardware store I bought two 5M x 12 mm allen top bolts at $0.69 a piece. The next thing you need is 2 small cable stops. The ones I got were aluminum and cost $.25 a piece you need 2 those. And miscellaneous things also used: some masking tape, some gear aid aquaseal SR, a white grease pencil/nail polish/whiteout and loctite. Lastly you also need a modded 15 mm socket; a cheap one that you can grind down flat on a bench/belt sander in order to get a good purchase/grip on that inside thin pivot nut.



The process:


Remove the cable assembly.
Un-stitch one side of the fabric material so that you can expose the cable stop.
Take a very small drillbit and drill out the indentation that was pressed to secure the cable. Only drill down to the cable, NOT through the cable. This should loosen the cable enough so that you can pull the cable shorter using some needle nosed pliers. The cable will still be snug and take some effort, but should move through this aluminum piece.
Once you have a significant amount of cable pulled through; which will significantly shorten the cable buckle assembly.
This part is the best guesstimates for that length of cable. Do not cut any cable at this point.
Loosely finger tight, attach the cable and to the pivot buckle using the new 5M x 12mm bolt. Then put your liners, insoles and foot in the boot and try the buckles…get it snug down. The cable in the assembly will be fairly tight so you don’t need to worry too much about cable assembly slippage during the fitting. This will give you a good idea of where you should eventually put the new cable stop. I used the second shortest position on the buckle, so that I had one position to go looser in two positions to go tighter. All of this length measurement guesstimate is going to be depended upon your mondo size of boot and your preference for how tight. My measurements: with a 24/24.5 mondo I ended up cutting off 85 mm measuring inbetween/inside from stop to stop. Fit and measure a few times to ensure you are in the ballpark about the cable length and where to place the cable stop.
Remove the buckle cable assembly off the boot.
Once you are confident about how much to cut off. Slide over the new cable stop to your marked distance. Measure 5x then pressed close or smash the cable stop and cut the cable.
Then hand stitch back of the fabric, it will be easy because of holes already there.
And then reattach the cable assembly to the inside pivot, use Loctite on the bolt.
You will end up with 2 to 3 unused holes in the shell. Back with masking tape squirt some aquaseal SR in the holes, the cure for the recommended time.
In the end you’ve hacked your old AT Backlands and with some link-levers into P-slippers. Each boot is now weighing in at 1095g

Apologies that the pics are not in order...note the number.










Pic 3









Pic 1









Pic 4









Pic 2








View attachment 163456


Finished ... note at this end of the cable, one side is flat and the other is shaped...shaped side down and the cable will lie flatter toward the boot

















These plates are 1097g a little more than twice the weight of the Verts 490g


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## wrathfuldeity

Atomic Backland Pivot to pivot ankle strap mod done. For all, especially the ladies in that the smaller phantom slippers are not made...make them your selves girls! You just use the original cable and shorten it per the above instructions. All you need to get is a cable stop and a 5M bolt that is 12mm longer for each boot...total cost about $2-3.

The original strap may feel a little pinchy. This morning found a piece of stiffer webbing to spread/distribute the pressure. You could either burn 1 small hole and pass the cable through and then whip sew/lash the other side (2 points) on the wire parts of the strap/buckle.

Very happy with this cheap ass mod. The first boot took a couple of hours; just to make sure it was going to work. The second boot took 15 minutes. Superior comfort, absolutely no heel lift, plenty of room in the instep/foot/toes and lastly once you get the buckle feel, its set and forget. In fact if you want to can do a quick release the pressure of the ankle buckle for an enjoyable ride up the chair or when switching to tour mode...just like skiers do.


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