# Stiff boots with thick liner



## roleta (Jan 27, 2014)

Hi snowboarders of the internet,
here I am back cause I am desperate and need a help. I am sure that you read this story for many times....boots and the (not only toe but also ankle) pain.

First a bit recap: I am from Slovakia (Europe), I am > 100kg and snowboarding for > 10 years and trying to board > 30 days a season at least (alps and some local hills). What I do is mostly bombing the groomers with a lot of switch riding. I would love to say that I do freeriding, but due condition it happens only few days a season. When the conditions are good I really want to enjoy my whole day on the slope (first chair last call ! I tried many SNB boots but my last I was o.k. with were NITRO teams 2014 size EU44/UK10/US11/mondo29. But actually after they brake in they were at lease one size large and have to put additional insole in. I was quite o.k. with this setup. After couple of years and good service provided (except the stupid TLS system) it was time for an upgrade. I was pretty sure what I want: stiff, half size smaller, good ankle support and traditional laces system. After testing a lot in local shops(my girlfriend makes jokes about it that I am too picky) I ended up with 32 Teams 2 EU44/UK9,5/US10,5/mondo285. At begining it was fine - no heel lift, stiff enough, no complains about laces, I ride the switch (really) a lot, a bit sore foot and bit toe pain. I also buy some traditional binding due i was missing hiback support in my flow binding (burton malavita M). The setup was excellent ... except the HUGE TOE PAIN I developed. I tried everything, 15 days on the slope, buy special molded insole, heat molding... The problem is that I downsized boot with very thin liner. My toes are not crushed by the inner liner but the shell itself. I am done with them, they ruined my days on the snow and I am back on some very old boots (NITRO Anthems US 11), which are very soft for my riding. I will sell them (not sure if I keep the binding) somehow. For my, the season is over but I have to solve it for next season. I am sure that downsizing is not an option for my ( no meter how good the heel-toe transition it provides), cause I can not spent 6 hours on the slope in such a boots. So please help my find the solution with end season sales  

1. Is there any stiff boot witch thick liner? I am sure that 32 it is not and NITRO has also thin liner. I read/listen to good review about Adidas tactical but need something stiffer (or am I?). Ideally with traditional laces and no heel lift is a must. And I can not do downsizing. Need true size to my shoes.

2. I like burton malavita because the ratches, excellent toe cap. In size M a I managed to center boot US10,5 very good, but was not successful with the size US11. Either toe or heel overhang. This size I can center with fuse flow L without a problem. Does anyone riding this size (burton M and boot US 11) true center? Or any suggestion what traditional bind to choose for US11 boot?


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## Harry Forks (Apr 17, 2017)

I think it's quite safe to assume that any boot with a thick liner will likely pack out more over time. The 32 TM3s claim to have a liner structure that wont pack out (obviously it will, but not as much as others). They are 6/10 but can be stiffened up to 8/10 if you use the removable support bars. It also has a heel hold kit so you can get it just right for you, and adjustable arch support.

Aside from that, others may have more suggestions to try.


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## Rip154 (Sep 23, 2017)

You should check out the life liners from Burton too. They don't pack out as much as other liners I've tried. Probably more with similar liners now or soon.


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## wrathfuldeity (Oct 5, 2007)

OP you maybe thinking about it the wrong way. It sounds like your boots are too big, liners too thick and your foot is moving around as a result. It not necessarily about taking up volume or making more room...it is to a certain extent...but. Methinks that your issue is that you have not made a pocket for your heel and ankle...and that you don't quite understand how to keep your heel locked down both heel lift-wise and preventing forward movement toe-bang wise. Focus on making a heel pocket and then locking it down by snugging up the cuff to hold the foot in the pocket. You could also use some dakine heel anchors or learning how to tie your laces to lock the heel in.

Anyway the point is, its not the thickness/thinness of the liner, its the pocket and how to keep your heel/ankle in the pocket that you've made.


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## roleta (Jan 27, 2014)

Hi,
my problem is that the outer shell of the 32 tm2 is too hard and too small. It is true with the heel pocket, but not this case. The inner liner is totally thin with just a little padding in front area - no room for extent. I tight the boots as much as possible to move foot backwards (to lock the heel - to create heel pocket) but still, after 2-3 hours it is killing my big toes. Riding experience is excellent, I do not have any heel lift at all. But I need boots for more than 2 hours. They have not packet out even a bit after 15 days of riding. I am done with them and looking for new one. I do not think that replace the liner with thinner version make significant difference because the original liner is already thin and the outer shell is killing my toes. In my aggressive inline skate I used always JUG black SOX liners, because they were cut in heel area - provide heel pocket - and I was able to downsize the outer boot in it. In snowboard boot you can not do this, because they primary use to bind your foot with snowboard and are used in winter.

I am looking for new snowboard boots. true size to my regular shoes which is Us11/UK10/mondo29. Downsizing was very bad idea for me. Something stiff, thick liner, for narrow foot. Something very comfortable. Any suggestion?


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## Triple8Sol (Nov 24, 2008)

Vans Infuse & Versa. Super stiff, especially with the tongue insert installed, and really thick/bulky liners.


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## timmytard (Mar 19, 2009)

Have you pulled the liner out of the boot & put your foot in it to see how big it actually is?

If you're done with the 32's?
Is there any harm in just cutting the big toe right out of the liner?
Just the very end where it would be hitting the end?

Not the underside or top, just the very end of the boot liner where the toe is

Back when snowboard boots sucked ass, we used to cut the liners or use a grinder and grind away where that spot was.

If the shell was too long, we would cut the rubber or grind some off so you wouldn't get toe or heel drag.

When you don't have the resources to buy new fancy boots that work properly, you make the shitty ones you have work.

When that's your only option, you do what you gotta do to make it work.

What do you have to lose?


TT


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## roleta (Jan 27, 2014)

These Vans Infuse look very promising. Sold out everywhere in EU but will look the shops at the beginning of the new season.

topic related to boot modification: I am not sure if it makes any sense to cut the inner liner, cause it is already very thin. My problem is small and hard outer shell. If I drill or grind the outer shell in toe area, I am sure I will ruin it (will be wet in snow or it won't last). When I put my feet to just the inner liner, there is no space left. It is fine. Even within the outer shell it is fine. But after 2 or more hours it hurts me big toes a lot. I want to sell them to my friend. Will lost money but I think I can afford a new boots.


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## Salt Shaker (Sep 13, 2017)

I have a similar issue with my big toes being sensitive. If I am in the wrong boots I get black spots under my nails and can only ride for a couple hours. 

You are on the right track with a thicker liner. Some liners use a thin neoprene in the toe box and there is little cushioning. This was an issue with my Adidas Sambas. Like you said heel/ankle hold is really important. It keeps your foot from sliding into the front of the boot which causes "toe bang". 

The most important factor is finding a boot that fits the shape of your foot. I personally need a very square toe box. If it tapers my big toe gets squished. 32 does not work for me, I have tried the Lashed and TM 2. 

Currently I have K2 Darkos and they are working well. My feet measure 26.8 and 27.4cm. I ordered mondo sizes 27 and 27.5. I kept the 27 and it was tight at first, but now they fit perfect. A few other people with toe problems have mentioned they like K2 and Ride. I am not saying they will absolutely work for you, but they may be worth checking out. Specifically the Ride Fuse.

The right socks also help. I use Smartwool Ultra Lights. Thick socks will put additional pressure on your toes and not allow you to be in the proper size boot.


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## timmytard (Mar 19, 2009)

The correct socks are very important as well.

I purposely buy my boots way smaller, because I know they are going to pack out lots.

It usually takes 5-10 times riding
In excruciating pain until they finally become comfortable.

Once they are packed out to as big as they're going to stretch, that's when they finally fit properly.

And when they finally fit right they are much to tight to wear snowboarding socks.
I wear super thin dress socks.
Those are the only socks that will work for me.
Cause that's how tight my boots are.


TT


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## Wiredsport (Sep 16, 2009)

roleta said:


> Hi,
> my problem is that the outer shell of the 32 tm2 is too hard and too small. It is true with the heel pocket, but not this case. The inner liner is totally thin with just a little padding in front area - no room for extent. I tight the boots as much as possible to move foot backwards (to lock the heel - to create heel pocket) but still, after 2-3 hours it is killing my big toes. Riding experience is excellent, I do not have any heel lift at all. But I need boots for more than 2 hours. They have not packet out even a bit after 15 days of riding. I am done with them and looking for new one. I do not think that replace the liner with thinner version make significant difference because the original liner is already thin and the outer shell is killing my toes. In my aggressive inline skate I used always JUG black SOX liners, because they were cut in heel area - provide heel pocket - and I was able to downsize the outer boot in it. In snowboard boot you can not do this, because they primary use to bind your foot with snowboard and are used in winter.
> 
> I am looking for new snowboard boots. true size to my regular shoes which is Us11/UK10/mondo29. Downsizing was very bad idea for me. Something stiff, thick liner, for narrow foot. Something very comfortable. Any suggestion?


Hi Roleta,

Snowboard boots will never be the same size as your US shoe size. That would be far too large. Please measure both feet (length and width) using this method:

Kick your heel (barefoot please, no socks) back against a wall. Mark the floor exactly at the tip of your toe (the one that sticks out furthest - which toe this is will vary by rider). Measure from the mark on the floor to the wall. That is your foot length and is the only measurement that you will want to use. Measure in centimeters if possible, but if not, take inches and multiply by 2.54 (example: an 11.25 inch foot x 2.54 = 28.57 centimeters). For width please place the inside (medial side) of your foot against a wall. Please then measure from the wall out to the widest point on the lateral (outside) of your foot.

STOKED!


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## roleta (Jan 27, 2014)

It is true about the toe area of my 32's - very thin neopren with almost no padding. I downsized for a purpose to have excellent response but still after 15 days it was totally uncomfortable (probably due to missing padding in this area). I will try the thin sock and I think I probably know how it ends. From my inline skating era I always ride thick sock - even in summer. I prevent my foot from getting blisters. Never have Ride boots but add them to my list.


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## Wiredsport (Sep 16, 2009)

roleta said:


> It is true about the toe area of my 32's - very thin neopren with almost no padding. I downsized for a purpose to have excellent response but still after 15 days it was totally uncomfortable (probably due to missing padding in this area). I will try the thin sock and I think I probably know how it ends. From my inline skating era I always ride thick sock - even in summer. I prevent my foot from getting blisters. Never have Ride boots but add them to my list.


Hi,

Blisters come from motion within the boot which also typically indicates too large a size. Before you spend more money I would strongly suggest that you post your barefoot measurements as suggested. There are a lot of indications in what you have written that you are about to make a second purchase which will lead only to further problems. It will be well worth the 5 minutes it takes to do these simple measurements.

STOKED!


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## roleta (Jan 27, 2014)

I tried yesterday the boot with very thin socks and it was not comfortable. Except the toe problem which persist the boot lost its ankle support.

I measured my bare foot in cm:

right 28 x 10.8
left 27.8 x 10.7


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## Wiredsport (Sep 16, 2009)

roleta said:


> I tried yesterday the boot with very thin socks and it was not comfortable. Except the toe problem which persist the boot lost its ankle support.
> 
> I measured my bare foot in cm:
> 
> ...


Hi Roleta,

This is a very common issue. Your feet are both Mondopoint 280 which is size 10 US in snowboard boots. 10.8 cm however is EE width and will never fit well in a "standard" width boot. This width issue will also make a standard width boot feel too short because of the arced shape of the toebox at the incorrect width (the boot will be too short at the outsides). 

The best boot choice for you will be either the Burton Ruler Wide or the Burton Photon Wide in Mondopoint 280 or size 10 US. These boots are EEE width. They will be the best match for your length and width and will correct all of the issues that you have mentioned.

STOKED!


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## roleta (Jan 27, 2014)

Sound strange for me (to go even smaller size I have problem with), but If have option to try these boots I will. I remember I once try in Italy burton boots US 10 (just for feeling) and after 1 ride I was done! it has hurt my toes as hell.


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## Wiredsport (Sep 16, 2009)

roleta said:


> Sound strange for me (to go even smaller size I have problem with), but If have option to try these boots I will. I remember I once try in Italy burton boots US 10 (just for feeling) and after 1 ride I was done! it has hurt my toes as hell.


Hi Roleta,

You will be going smaller in length and larger in width to match your foot dimensions. The boot will be wider and shorter which is correct for the measurements that you have provided. This will be the correct fit. Until you match both length and width you will continue to have the problems that you have detailed. These problems will never be solved by a stiffer boot. Standard width boots in size 10 are also not suggested. They would not be expected to work. Only one brand designs boots for your width (Burton makes the two specific wide models that I have suggested). You should buy one of those two models in size 10.

STOKED!


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## speedjason (May 2, 2013)

Different kind of toe pain can be different kind of issues.
If your big and small toes are getting squished from the sides, you probably have wide feet, and the toe boxes are not big enough.
If your big toes are jammed up against the front of the boot when riding but not when standing, the boot instep is too high for your feet.
Both can somewhat remedied with slight lift in the heels so the toes can be pulled slight back to have more room or the instep of your feet can match the instep of the boot.
Boots are not just 2 dimensional. A pair of boots can fit fine when standing but when you are pressing, if you ankles are not secured, they can cause the feet to move.
You need to make sure your boots fit in 3 dimensions.


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## roleta (Jan 27, 2014)

I am quite lost between the size conversion. Today I'be been in shop and try burton motto 10US and there was no way I can spent a day i this size (squized toes). However in 10,5 US I was comfortable compared to my 32's. But motto is soft and they don't have anything else.
I asked them to measure my feet with tool and you can see output in attachement. They used SIDAS's (insole manufacturer) measure tool. My feet are something like 277mm X 109mm and it should be standard 10,5US according the tool.
Anyway, I will test as many boots as possible. Still looking for some thicker liner boots suggestions.
sofar: vans ifuse, ride fuse
and what about burton x danners?


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## Wiredsport (Sep 16, 2009)

roleta said:


> I am quite lost between the size conversion. Today I'be been in shop and try burton motto 10US and there was no way I can spent a day i this size (squized toes). However in 10,5 US I was comfortable compared to my 32's. But motto is soft and they don't have anything else.
> I asked them to measure my feet with tool and you can see output in attachement. They used SIDAS's (insole manufacturer) measure tool. My feet are something like 277mm X 109mm and it should be standard 10,5US according the tool.
> Anyway, I will test as many boots as possible. Still looking for some thicker liner boots suggestions.
> sofar: vans ifuse, ride fuse
> and what about burton x danners?


Hi Roleta,

As I mentioned above, you would not be expected to fit in a standard width size 10. You are an EE width. Mondopoint is not a conversion. It is your foot measurement in mm. Only one brand designs boots for your width (Burton makes the two specific wide models that I have suggested). You should buy one of those two models in Mondopoint 280 which is size 10 US.

STOKED!


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## Phedder (Sep 13, 2014)

roleta said:


> My feet are something like 277mm X 109mm and it should be standard 10,5US according the tool.
> Anyway, I will test as many boots as possible. Still looking for some thicker liner boots suggestions.
> sofar: vans ifuse, ride fuse
> and what about burton x danners?


I'm 278mm x 107mm and I ride in US9 Ride Fuses... Now I wouldn't recommend that for 99% of people, and that specific boot fits *my* foot shape very well, but you should be looking at US10s. If you have to go up to a 10.5 to make it work, it's the wrong boot. 

As Wired has pointed out you've got a wider foot, definitely give the Burton wides a try, but I've found Ride and K2 liners to allow for some extra width compared to other brands without being a dedicated 'wide fit' and for your needs I'd definitely try on the Ride Fuse and K2 T1s in a 10.


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## roleta (Jan 27, 2014)

I can not imagine myself in size 10US nor 9US but I give it a try. Test ride will be best but even in Alps I have not seen anything like this and in rental shops the stuff is worn as hell. But I really want to try some wide boots (US 10/10,5/11). This Burton Photon looks promising. Ruler is too soft. Problem is that everything in this size is sold out in EU. I will wait for new season models and if I go by some snb shops I will check it! Thanks for tip!


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## Wiredsport (Sep 16, 2009)

roleta said:


> I can not imagine myself in size 10US nor 9US but I give it a try. Test ride will be best but even in Alps I have not seen anything like this and in rental shops the stuff is worn as hell. But I really want to try some wide boots (US 10/10,5/11). This Burton Photon looks promising. Ruler is too soft. Problem is that everything in this size is sold out in EU. I will wait for new season models and if I go by some snb shops I will check it! Thanks for tip!


Hi Roleta,

You may very well find out that you no longer need stiff boots once you are in the correct Mondopoint size and the correct width. Stiff boots are certainly a valid preference but very often riders determine that they need stiff boots because they are actually not being held in place by boots that are too large. They feel like stiffness is the answer but it will never solve that issue. 

I cannot reiterate this enough, you need a boot that will both match EE width and your Mondopoint size (280/US 10). There are only two boots on the entire market that are designed to do so. I wish there were more but it sure makes your shopping easy . Order online if you need to.

STOKED!


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## DauntlessDan (Oct 21, 2019)

Burton IONs 

great support
stiff flex
super comfortable
thick lining inner
fast lacing


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## roleta (Jan 27, 2014)

Hi,

There is finally new stuff in shops so I got this year nitro team us11/uk10/EU44/mondo29. In the same shop I tried also burton ions wide - there was no way that I can squeeze in US 10. In wide ions US 10,5 I have feeling very similar to nitro us11. I spent 2 hours in that shop and choose the nitro because I find them more solid than ions. I hope I choose wisely. Team’s were quite expensive and I have only TLS version (prefer traditional lacing but unfortunately it was not in the stock of this shop). I cannot wait for first SNB trip.
I need some advice with binding. Burton Malavita size M is too small for this boot – straps are o.k. but pedal is too small. My old flow fuse is still there, but want to go back to traditional binding, mainly for hi-backs. Do you think that Burton Malavita size L will be o.k. for this boot and that I will be able to center it correctly? I remember that with similar boot with custom L binding it was not able and I end up with heel overlap. Actually I am not fun of Burton product, but the spare parts are no problem in Alps compared to flow. Or is there any other option to look at? Flows got terrible hi-back support but with S-M-L-XL sizing I was with US11 and size L completely centered. No straps/heel/toe overlap at all.


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## Wiredsport (Sep 16, 2009)

roleta said:


> Hi,
> 
> There is finally new stuff in shops so I got this year nitro team us11/uk10/EU44/mondo29. In the same shop I tried also burton ions wide - there was no way that I can squeeze in US 10. In wide ions


Hi,

The Ion's are not produced in a Wide model. I would strongly suggest the Photon Wide or the Ruler Wide in size 10. Please post up images (showing your full foot, the wall and the ruler) for length and width of each foot.

STOKED


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## roleta (Jan 27, 2014)

it was photon in wide. My mistake. I have the same feeling 43,5 photon wide and nitro team 44. The nitro was more solid so after 2 hours of testing in shop I choose the team's. Still waiting for the first snow. Now I am looking for the binding and need some advice to it.


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## Wiredsport (Sep 16, 2009)

Per your earlier measurements you are Mondo 280 or 43. Please post up images (showing your full foot, the wall and the ruler) for length and width of each foot.

STOKED


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## roleta (Jan 27, 2014)

Hi, 
due Covid19 last season was shorter, hopefully following will be better, but current situation in Europe sucks again. Anyway, I spent i that Team's almost 30 days. Sometimes I was struggling with them in harsh hard icy condition, cause I could not get enough snug fit for response, but never have painful day in them. The combination with standard binding is working well for me - I really like the support. My only one concern is that liner get wet pretty soon. It is from sweat, not from outside. I never have this issue with old non heat moltable liner in the past. I even tried the old liner in them, have to change the tightening messy system, but unfortunately the tong is kind of worn out and it is not that comfy compared to original stocked liner. I remember that TM2 has also this wet issue. Any suggestion?


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## WigMar (Mar 17, 2019)

I don't know about the wet issue, but it sure sounds like your boots are still too big. Glad it's been working for you though. Maybe try some wool socks?


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