# stop the insanity



## Clayton Bigsby (Oct 23, 2012)

Where have all the board shops gone ?

The board shops of old, were always skate/bike shops. Years ago we were pissed that REI started selling boarding equipment, but that doesn't even compare to the "board shop" I just seen online, NORDSTROM now sells Burton gear. 

The industry (at least here in Northern Washington State) has left you with no other choice then to buy online. We do have a hand full of shops left; Mt BAKER Snowboard Shop, Hidden wave, but they may not carry the brand/model you're looking for. Recently we've had one of snowboardings originals close their doors, the Seattle Snowboard Connection, along with a great gear shop, The Marmot store in Bellevue also closed its doors.

Where are the days of walking into a shop (that's not in the mall, employing 17 year old chicks) and grabbing a board to feel the flex pattern, weight, shape etc. With snowboarding being one of the worlds most popular sports, you'd think that they'd be able to keep the doors open, especially in a hot bed like the PNW.

NORDSTROM, GO TO HELL AND STICK TO YOUR SKINNY JEANS AND UGG'S


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## BurtonAvenger (Aug 14, 2007)

Darwinism, the industry, and a culture that has been taught to find the best deal killed them.


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## deagol (Mar 26, 2014)

Clayton Bigsby said:


> .... NORDSTROM now sells Burton gear.


holy &&^%$ that is crazy. We had a nice board shop here that had all sorts of spare parts and was a lifesaver when a binding broke. It went out of business a few years ago.. 
Not a good trend, I'm afraid.


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## BurtonAvenger (Aug 14, 2007)

They've sold Burton for years. It's the MMXXVI line or some shit like that it's all insanely high end limited product. $1000 dollar leather jackets and what not.


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## miplatt88 (May 13, 2013)

I know I am going to get hate for this but I do all of my snowboard shopping online... granted I live in Nebraska, but even if I didn't I would probably still do most of my shopping online. Typically it is cheaper online and you have a wider selection. And with places like backcountry letting you try your gear for 30 days if you dont like something just send it back.


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## Mizu Kuma (Apr 13, 2014)

The "Internet" happened!!!!!


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## speedjason (May 2, 2013)

I think the main problem is snowboarding is still not big enough and the price is still high for new stuff. When you spending that kinda money, people want to get the exact stuff they want.
Also there are only a handful places in US where you can snowboard.
I guess if they can open more indoors snowboard places stuff would be much cheaper.
And yes, there are too many models.


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## f00bar (Mar 6, 2014)

Some would say insane is paying MSRP on equipment.


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## lab49232 (Sep 13, 2011)

Let's also not forget that many small shops failed to adapt their business with the time. Snow-Con didn't go out of business because of the internet or number of models or anything like that, they made a lot of poor business decisions. It killed them. Such is the way of the world.


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## BurtonAvenger (Aug 14, 2007)

miplatt88 said:


> I know I am going to get hate for this but I do all of my snowboard shopping online... granted I live in Nebraska, but even if I didn't I would probably still do most of my shopping online. Typically it is cheaper online and you have a wider selection. And with places like backcountry letting you try your gear for 30 days if you dont like something just send it back.


No it's called being an informed shopper and knowing what you want and how you are going to get it. The only time it's actually cheaper is on the discounted items that aren't inline as everyone has to adhere to the same MAP.



speedjason said:


> I think the main problem is snowboarding is still not big enough and the price is still high for new stuff. When you spending that kinda money, people want to get the exact stuff they want.
> Also there are only a handful places in US where you can snowboard.
> I guess if they can open more indoors snowboard places stuff would be much cheaper.
> And yes, there are too many models.


Handful of places? Clearly you've never looked at the number of ski areas in the lower 48. 





f00bar said:


> Some would say insane is paying MSRP on equipment.


Yeah because paying the MSRP is so insane so that everyone has the margins they need. This thought process is why companies will start selling direct, more shops will decline, participation numbers will decrease, prices will increase because they will realize that they can make more direct, and in the end you the customer will be the one boned in the ass still complaining.


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## speedjason (May 2, 2013)

BurtonAvenger said:


> Handful of places? Clearly you've never looked at the number of ski areas in the lower 48.


Unless there is one for any city I would say snowboarding is never gonna be mainstream.


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## BurtonAvenger (Aug 14, 2007)

speedjason said:


> Unless there is one for any city I would say snowboarding is never gonna be mainstream.


You clearly don't know what you're talking about.


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## miplatt88 (May 13, 2013)

Snowboarding is fairly mainstream but it is a pretty expensive sport to get into. Hence, why brick and mortar stores are going under. Why would I buy something for MSRP when I can go online and get it for cheaper plus get a 30 day return policy?


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## SnowDogWax (Nov 8, 2013)

This forum is not mainstream. Lots of shops at resorts doing great from the try it, feel it, tell me what i need! Mainstream crowd.






SnowDog | SnowDogWax.com


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## Argo (Feb 25, 2010)

I buy local as much as possible, even if it is just during the sale season(anytime other than Nov-Mar). I drive over to summit a lot because they have better options in their shops. I also frequent Buzzs in Vail but that is pretty much the only independent shop in town.


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## Motogp990 (Mar 10, 2013)

I've been fortunate to have well stocked (imo) and long standing board shops in the two main cities I've lived in, since I've been boarding.

Bought my first set up at Eazy Rider in Edmonton (now Source Boards). They are still going strong and the store is pretty big.

In Vancouver, we have west 4th avenue, between the 3 main shops, which are side by side (Comor, Pacific Boarder and Boardroom), you can pretty much get anything you want.

And in Whistler, you can definitely find anything, however I guess Whistler doesn't count because its a resort.

Canadian online prices are pretty much the same as Canadian brick and mortar prices.

And unless you're close to the US border, buying US online or cross border shopping, doesn't really save that much money, especially if the CDN dollar isn't strong vs the USD.

I think the biggest saving for me buying online, is when the previous year stuff goes on sale and obv with the internet the search isn't limited to what's close. 

If you're a first adopter, regardless of where you buy, there aren't going to be that many savings (imo).

That being said, I probably buy 70% brick and mortar and 30% online.


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## cerebroside (Nov 6, 2012)

Motogp990 said:


> I've been fortunate to have well stocked (imo) and long standing board shops in the two main cities I've lived in, since I've been boarding.
> 
> ....


All the shops you mentioned sell online. I've bought a couple of things online from Source, but everything else I get locally. As you said, it isn't any cheaper online in Canada, just a bit more variety.


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## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

I try to buy locally brick and mortar as much as possible. In fact... i've done like 90% brick n mortar and 10% intrawebz.

Almost the same price, but the hands on experience beats the small little bit of saving you can get online. Yes... there's some crazy sales online... but still, we get some sales locally as well. Crossing the US border i guess is doable, but I'm not driving all that way just to save $25. When you add gas, plus risks, plus simply dealing with US border patrol..... bah. I happily buy brick and mortar.

To me, nothing beats going somewhere... talking stoke with a sales person... touching boards, bindings, boots, whatever... putting stuff side by side... checking for fit... checking for stiffness... just looking at the overall product.


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## radiomuse210 (Sep 5, 2014)

I think part of the problem is most of your casual riders aren't buying new gear every year. They are going to make that shit last as long as possible because it's expensive to upgrade.

Bought my new board from a local shop. Same price as online but still ended up being $20 more expensive due to sales tax.


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## KansasNoob (Feb 24, 2013)

I got an awesome deal on my helmet in Pagosa Springs from a brick and mortar shop... Bubbas board shack by Durango does free waxes if you buy the board there, stuff like that can make a shop worth it to people. I will be deal hunting in January, sometimes you can still find last or 2 years ago stuff at a solid discount in a shop. I like to touch and play with it all.


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## Argo (Feb 25, 2010)

I always liked shopping in Pagosa, they have a pretty decent selection in their few stores and usually some great deals in March.....


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## cav0011 (Jan 4, 2009)

I disagree with the theory that online is cheaper. Every b&m store price matches. Further you can often talk to "higher" level employees and get a slightly better price. The only thing online has is selection.


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## eelpout (Mar 1, 2009)

Happened to the music industry. I grew up going to record stores after school and spending an afternoon flipping through albums and talking to the staff about new releases. I miss that.

Sadly, kiddies will soon expect their Burton Whatzit Snurfwheel to be delivered to them by an Amazon "drone." Ah the memories that will create.


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## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

I always love the irony present by many on this board. You absolutely need to shop local to buy your gear, but shipping manufacturing overseas is just fine and completely acceptable if it allows a cheaper product to be delivered to the consumer. Dafuq kinda logic is that?


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## deagol (Mar 26, 2014)

all my boards are made in USA...
in fact 2 of the 3 were made in CO


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## SnowDogWax (Nov 8, 2013)

Never Summer or LibTech are made local. Would be hard pressed to buy all your gear made in USA. Buying from a local shop is helping the little guy. We like eating out at non-chain restaurants. 









SnowDog | SnowDogWax.com


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## BurtonAvenger (Aug 14, 2007)

linvillegorge said:


> I always love the irony present by many on this board. You absolutely need to shop local to buy your gear, but shipping manufacturing overseas is just fine and completely acceptable if it allows a cheaper product to be delivered to the consumer. Dafuq kinda logic is that?


I'll say this and if it pisses people off so be it. American made boards are pretty much the lowest end quality decks you can get. From finish to materials it's low end. They're using old fiber glass, out dated lay up and pressing techniques. And the quality, dear god the fucking quality!

European, Chinese, and even now Dubai shit on North American made. I mean pull their pants down, squat, and release a bowel explosion of pure and utter superiority all over American made. 

That's not to say there aren't some N.A. made products that are good, but in a sea of mediocrity being marginally better will make you stand out. 

Also if people actually looked at current in line product and compared local to online based off MSRP and MAP the difference is pretty negligible. What's really skewed the online market place is their ability to mass discount old stock. Which has given rise to the "I'll buy it new but it's last year" mentality. Rather than the new new, you're getting the new old. Which is actually a result of mass over production from brands then forcing them to dump the product at who will buy in bulk. 1 brick and mortar vs say a QVC backed online store? Who has the infrastructure to move that product? 

Realistically the whole snowboard industry from the top down is completely broken and ununified. This is where all the issues you guys are talking about really come into play. But because of their lack of being cohesive it effects them and rather than fix the problem they're perfectly fine playing the sit in a circle and jerk each other off while pointing fingers.

And just to throw this in there. If you can find a deal on what you want, I mean a great fucking deal. I commend you. Snowboarding is not cheap. So fuck anyone that tries to shame you for saving money so you can ride more. That whole practice needs to just end and while I have been guilty of that in the past, fuck it if you're snowboarding more it's helping out my business in the long run.


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## Steezus Christ (Jul 29, 2013)

Capitalism.

A store I worked for has had significantly declining profits every year since the 07/08 season. Many shops in my area have closed or have extremely limited selection because they just can't afford to get more stock. My boss played a different approach and bought more and more stock in order to have more selection to keep up with the bigger guys. Hard to say how much longer they will be open for, even in the last 2 years while I was overseas, I returned to see a significantly smaller shop.

Prices are all set to an industry standard so to say something is cheaper online is straight bullshit, have you even walked into a store and checked for yourself? The big benefit to online shopping is having the information and availability of any product right at your fingertips. People sitting at their computers putting together all their favorite items and clicking "cart" is all to easy than buying each piece individually from different shops.


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## Steezus Christ (Jul 29, 2013)

This forum itself is probably the biggest offender. All the threads directly related to PSA sales and discounts to online stores, not to mention every time someone asks about a board or gear they wanna get, someone will direct them to an Evo or dogfunk link..


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## SnowDogWax (Nov 8, 2013)

Toured the Never Summer factory seemed like quality to me... Sea of mediocrity + overproduction is just the new business norm. Quality will win out or be bought out, I'm guilty of the buy new last year gear myself. :facepalm1:






SnowDog | SnowDogWax.com


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## radiomuse210 (Sep 5, 2014)

The local store that I bought my board from has actually grown in the past few years. Moved to a bigger store in a better location, has started getting significantly more stock, and is actually a pretty sweet place to shop or get board maintenance done. They do rentals now as well. If that will continue to be the trend, I don't know. I do know that they only had one board left of the one I wanted and it just so happened to be my size so I'm stoked on that. 

Hopefully the whole industry will start getting its shit together and work to grow snowboarding as a whole.


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## f00bar (Mar 6, 2014)

Steezus Christ said:


> This forum itself is probably the biggest offender. All the threads directly related to PSA sales and discounts to online stores, not to mention every time someone asks about a board or gear they wanna get, someone will direct them to an Evo or dogfunk link..


Maybe if all of the local places didn't suck ass as far as customer service and actually helping you choose the correct board/boots/whatever we wouldn't rely on the internet so much.

Now my guess is the quality of shops to be found is much higher in the mountains of CO, but around here where we are 3+ hours from the decent mountains they all just suck ass. I have about 4 or 5 local places and I do go in there and end up leaving shaking my head in frustration. It's the same canned 'push this board and push it hard' crap. 

They don't ask questions about what you might need or want. None of it is a personal experience. Might as well just read the canned crap on the websites as you aren't gonna get any better. I don't mind spending the money if they spend the time, but at this point, fuck em.


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## Steezus Christ (Jul 29, 2013)

And what customer service do u get sitting behind a computer?


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## BurtonAvenger (Aug 14, 2007)

SnowDogWax said:


> Toured the Never Summer factory seemed like quality to me... Sea of mediocrity + overproduction is just the new business norm. Quality will win out or be bought out, I'm guilty of the buy new last year gear myself. :facepalm1:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm sorry I can't stop laughing at this. They use severely dated fiberglass. They're pouring over a gallon of epoxy into their boards. NS fools so many people. SO MANY!


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## f00bar (Mar 6, 2014)

Steezus Christ said:


> And what customer service do u get sitting behind a computer?


The exact same, only without the dirty looks when I start watching lesbian porn.


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## SnowDogWax (Nov 8, 2013)

BurtonAvenger said:


> I'm sorry I can't stop laughing at this. They use severely dated fiberglass. They're pouring over a gallon of epoxy into their boards. NS fools so many people. SO MANY!


Good laughs are hard to come by, glade I could help...Fooled me.. 
Owned the ripsaw and heritage & thought wow great boards. NOWFooled me twice??? 









SnowDog | SnowDogWax.com


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## Bones (Feb 24, 2008)

Steezus Christ said:


> And what customer service do u get sitting behind a computer?



About the same as I got at my local clothing/bike/tennis/ski/boarding store, ie not much.

I closed down my retail store years ago. I had a good run, but I was really just a middleman marking up the same brand names and the same manufacturer's warranties as everyone else. In reality, I made my money financing convenience for my market: you could touch it, turn it on and walk out the door with it for a 30% price premium, then a 25% premium, then 20, then 10, etc. In short, the market spoke: convenience wasn't worth large amounts of money anymore. I adapted by going into straight service. I was happy to advise you on what make and model would suit your needs, even point you to the cheapest online retailer. Of course, when it broke out of warranty, then you knew who to take it to. I made the same amount of money without the big overhead: small place in an industrial park instead of a showroom, less financing, less staff, etc.

I view the demise of retail with a bit of a jaded eye. There will always be retail stores, but the internet has exposed what a lot of retail really was: straight mark-up with no added value. Some are adapting to add value, some are going under. Sooner or later, online stores will restrict their return policies or consumers will balk at paying shipping and the value equation will swing back in favor of bricks and mortar for some products. But if you're not adding value or value that your market wants, then you're going to have a tough time


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## speedjason (May 2, 2013)

eelpout said:


> Happened to the music industry. I grew up going to record stores after school and spending an afternoon flipping through albums and talking to the staff about new releases. I miss that.
> 
> Sadly, kiddies will soon expect their Burton Whatzit Snurfwheel to be delivered to them by an Amazon "drone." Ah the memories that will create.


Hey records are coming back now. I just started collecting records myself. Mostly late 70's and early 80's rock. Music nowadays is mostly crap.:jumping1:


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## KansasNoob (Feb 24, 2013)

Argo said:


> I always liked shopping in Pagosa, they have a pretty decent selection in their few stores and usually some great deals in March.....


I got my helmet in March, it was that year's lid and was $20 cheaper than anywhere online. Summit and Ski & Bow rack are both decent. Pagosa is easy to walk around and look at the restaurants and stores, friendly folks too.

Bubba's, about 2 miles from DMR is awesome IMO, it's like 500 square feet. When I came in in the evenings, there was usually a 30 pack on the counter and everyone was chilling out. Small selection but it is a snowboard shop if there ever was one. A shack that smells like wax full of boards! My buddies rented from em and their rentals were nice. Not really impressed with much else in Durango. One shop tried to put my 5'6" buddy on a 165 flagship!!

I see no issue with buying new, last year's stuff. If you want me to buy current year, I gotta have a reason! What is different?! What is improved?! Same as buying a car or anything else. Buying new stuff just because it's new lets manufacturers get lazy.


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## 2hellnbak (Sep 21, 2012)

miplatt88 said:


> Snowboarding is fairly mainstream but it is a pretty expensive sport to get into. Hence, why brick and mortar stores are going under. Why would I buy something for MSRP when I can go online and get it for cheaper plus get a 30 day return policy?


You're off on this unless you just can't get anything locally. I bought most of my gear this year (had to replace a lot of outdated and worn out stuff) locally at a "brick and mortar" store and got just as good of deals as I could have online, better on some of them.

Most shops especially smaller ones will give you a killer deal on last years stuff as they don't want it on the shelf for yet another year.

I always shop for the best deal, but it can often be found locally if you LOOK.


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## UNION INHOUSE (Nov 13, 2012)

In my opinion, overproduction is reason #1. 

Sales people working for that sales growth bonus. Not good. 

Overproduction leads to discounted product.

Discounted product leads to nobody making money except for FedEx and UPS. 

I'm not even going to get into reasons 2-30.


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## 16gkid (Dec 5, 2012)

Steezus Christ said:


> This forum itself is probably the biggest offender. All the threads directly related to PSA sales and discounts to online stores, not to mention every time someone asks about a board or gear they wanna get, someone will direct them to an Evo or dogfunk link..


Dude ur so fucking wrong its insane, im not gonna spend more money than i have to so "snowboarding can survive" FUCKING HILARIOUS


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## 16gkid (Dec 5, 2012)

Blame the companies for flooding the market, and the NS fanboys for spending too much money on a 2nd tier snowboard:hairy:


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## Steezus Christ (Jul 29, 2013)

im not arguing against that dude. im just giving reasons as to why brick and mortar shops are going under...


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## 16gkid (Dec 5, 2012)

UNION INHOUSE said:


> In my opinion, overproduction is reason #1.
> 
> Sales people working for that sales growth bonus. Not good.
> 
> ...


Yes, yes and yes!


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## UNION INHOUSE (Nov 13, 2012)

16gkid said:


> Blame the companies for flooding the market, and the NS fanboys for spending too much money on a 2nd tier snowboard:hairy:


I don't think NS is guilty.

IMO, they make a good board and have a following for a reason. They are in it for the long haul. 

I don't think any company that has a factory is guilty actually. The list is short. 

I'm not a sales guy, so maybe I should to stick to answering questions about hardware, materials, "flex ratings", and team dudes.


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## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

UNION INHOUSE said:


> Sales people working for that sales growth bonus. Not good.


Don't forget every company always expecting year over year growth, no matter what. Sales people by and large are only trying to meet and exceed sales figures pushed on them by management.

Coming from a career sales guy.


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## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

16gkid said:


> Blame the companies for flooding the market, and the NS fanboys for spending too much money on a 2nd tier snowboard:hairy:


Say what you want about NS boards, but they're one of the best on the market when it comes to NOT grossly overproducing. When have you ever seen an NS board getting blown out at 50% off like a lot of other companies' gear? Most NS gear gets sold at MSRP or MAP, or at a relatively small discount at the end of the year.


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## Mizu Kuma (Apr 13, 2014)

linvillegorge said:


> Don't forget every company always expecting year over year growth, no matter what. Sales people by and large are only trying to meet and exceed sales figures pushed on them by management.
> 
> Coming from a career sales guy.


Management are the biggest drivers of over production!!!!!

High volume with small margin is how these bigger companies run!!!!! 

This in turn cripples the retail guys that do a smaller turnover!!!!! 

You'll find though that most of these brands won't have longevity as a rule, and this also goes for the CEO's that run them!!!!!


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## nillo (Dec 18, 2013)

The local shop I go to has been there for decades and has a decent selection. However, when I want to buy a board I head to a mountain and demo the shit out of some boards. Good luck doing that online. Plus it's fun as hell.


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## xIceHoundx (May 12, 2013)

Steezus Christ said:


> And what customer service do u get sitting behind a computer?



Honestly pretty decent. As a military service member, and one stationed in Europe at that, I do all my shopping online because let's face it not only can I find all the selection I want, I either find discount on stuff that I dont really need or want to be current season gear on sales, even the current seasons gear I order I get military discount on, in the end I'll support the people supporting my service by hooking it up. I don't have time to drive ungodly hours to a shop with limited stock especially while in Europe where euro prices are already way more expensive not to mention dollar to euro conversion. When I've had issues with any fear the places I've ordered from have handled them promptly and I always come out happy with the experience.


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## slyder (Jan 18, 2010)

I also miss "Junk Yards" not recyclable centers how PC can one get. Loved looking for parts for my old cars. 
Same with car part stores. You used to be able to go in smoke, shoot the shit, get get info and tips. Now these box stores your lucky you get the right part on your 2nd trip back cuz the 1st one was wrong but the computer said "thats what you needed ...."

With this I enjoyed talking with the workers, you get to know them. Can't do that with interwebz... All points are valid. 
If I hadn't found a local shop that I truly enjoy going to, I even just stop in during the summer months to catch up and say hey to the boys. I would probably be buying online as well, with the wrong gear I thought I'd like or more threads "I need a board" 
So as long as his shop is here, I"ll be there !!


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## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

I hate it when shops try to push brands... that's the worst. Even worse than unknowledgeable staff.


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## Nivek (Jan 24, 2008)

The answers have all been touched on. It's a combination of all of them.

Overproduction. When a brand decides to overproduce 400% on a model and offer it at a discount only a few on the ground stores can benefit from that volume so online gets the most benefit as they have the best logistics to handle it. They don't have to shove 100 of the same board on the shelf, they just have to make room in the warehouse and wait for orders to be placed. This is the first thing that needs to stop. It's bad for everyone. The brand doesn't get to sell new boards, the shop doesn't get to sell new boards, and eventually you have to sell off the last 20% of your stock for a 50% loss. It also leads to consumers buying the wrong product cause a 3 year old board that retailed at $450 is now $150. Why buy anything else? Wrong size, wrong profile, wrong style? Don't care, it's $150.

Shop Kids. While this is a smaller reason, I think it matters. For a time the average shop was using their staff as sort of a "team" thing. You got to work there if you were a sick rider. Guess what, there's a hell of a lot of pro's out there that have no interest in what their riding as long as it doesn't suck. They can't speak in detail about any one part of their gear. Same goes for a lot of shop kids. They're useless. Will tell you only what they brand rep told them in the clinic cause they don't know any better, and will push the brand who's hooking them up or stroked them the most. I'd rather buy a board from a kid that knows his shit and can't spin a jump than one who double chucks and is going to sell you X-Brand and X-Profile cause that's what he/she rides.

Ignoring the future or bad decisions. There are some shops out there with both online and ground presence. Makes sense don't it? Online has a hell of a lot of benefits for sales. And if you're in a vacation location it's even better. Johnny farm boy from South Dakota that has been buying he gear online from Shop-A at mountain Z finally goes to mountain Z. And is super pumped he finally gets to go to the physical Shop-A. And running an online shop takes 4-5 people max for a moderately sized operation and very little space/dollar compared to in your face shopping. That combined with the ability to basically have quadruple the stock of a normal ground store since you can pull from your online warehouse... get with the times. SnoCon was in a location with ludicrously high rent. Shit like that will get ya.

Retail Evolution. Retail in general has moved online. Why drive all the way to wherever, which involves putting pants on, to get something I don't need to try on or already know what size I am when I can get it online? I get exactly what I want and if site A doesn't have it, site B probably will and it was only a few keystrokes away instead of wasting 3 hours finding a store that does have it. The average snowboarder sees the sport as a seasonal vacation activity and treats it like any other small part of their life. They don't see it as an industry or a way of a life or something with a "soul" for lack of a better analogy. So why would they shop local, which takes hours, when they want this board for that graphic and can get it online with 5 minutes effort?

For NS. Their business plan has been pretty solid. Overhype, underproduce, give nothing back. That puts a hell of a lot of money into the owners pocket and keeps the brand alive. They are a sub quality brand though. They do use outdated material and techniques. Great, you've been to their factory and seen what they do. Been to any others for comparison? Didn't think so.

Regarding the "hypocrisy" of pushing buy local and then buying outsourced goods. With snowboards specifically, where do you think they get all their materials? Inserts come from Taiwan or Germany, edges from Germany, one of the key chemicals in topsheets is made in one factory in Austria and nowhere else, there are a couple glass manufacturers in the US, but they aren't very consistent. Same with Durasurf. Great bases if you get a good batch. Shite if you don't. Not to mention boots, bindings, and outerwear are ALL produced in Asia land. We live in a GLOBAL economy. Get over it and get used to it.


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## ZacAttakk (Oct 20, 2014)

I buy all my gear from local, small business owners. My favorite is a all out board shop so they change with the seasons. Skate/Snow/Surf. I refuse to give my money to mall chains like zumiez, pacsun, etc. Just for it to go to big wigs and shitty over seas manufacturing. Supporting local small businesses key


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## eelpout (Mar 1, 2009)

Steezus Christ said:


> And what customer service do u get sitting behind a computer?


I will say I've gotten some _superb _customer service online for purchases. Not surprisingly though it's from brick & mortar stores that also sell through the 'net. So they tend to give more of a darn.


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## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

Nivek said:


> Regarding the "hypocrisy" of pushing buy local and then buying outsourced goods. With snowboards specifically, where do you think they get all their materials? Inserts come from Taiwan or Germany, edges from Germany, one of the key chemicals in topsheets is made in one factory in Austria and nowhere else, there are a couple glass manufacturers in the US, but they aren't very consistent. Same with Durasurf. Great bases if you get a good batch. Shite if you don't. Not to mention boots, bindings, and outerwear are ALL produced in Asia land. We live in a GLOBAL economy. Get over it and get used to it.


Of course we live in a global economy, but the hypocrisy is real.

Why do companies outsource manufacturing? To save a buck. Why do consumers go online to shop? Convenience and... to save a buck. Even if that savings is just not having to pay sales tax. 

Hell, I'd honestly rather support the company that is making an effort to manufacture here in the U.S. rather than a local shop that's employing a bunch of don't give a fuck bro brahs who think coming to work is just about hanging with their bros and trying to be cooler than the customers. Retail has largely become bullshit, that's why online e-tailers are thriving. Retail has largely become just about making their margin while providing the customer with very little in return. Customer sees he can buy the same shit cheaper online so he does that. It makes sense. Retail has to understand that they'll never be able to compete with e-tailers when it comes to pure price war. They're gonna lose that battle. They have higher overhead and they have to make a higher margin. They have to find a way to provide a value added service or they're gonna keep getting "show roomed" where customers come in to check out the shit they wanna buy, then turn around and buy it online. Hiring the local cool kid bro brahs isn't the way to do that.

Now, that's over-generalizing majorly, but for the most part, that's been my experience with a shit ton of local snowboard shops. Fuck 'em. Get your shit in gear or die.


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## lab49232 (Sep 13, 2011)

Buying local or American made in 90% of cases is a joke. I said it, everyone secretly knows it. But since admitting it takes away your ability to feel superior to those who admit it we all pretend like it's a real thing. :embarrased1::embarrased1::embarrased1:

The only real exceptions are service type businesses (get a local barber instead of a chain Supercuts cut), restaurants, and well that's about it.


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## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

lab49232 said:


> Buying local or American made in 90% of cases is a joke. I said it, everyone secretly knows it. But since admitting it takes away your ability to feel superior to those who admit it we all pretend like it's a real thing. :embarrased1::embarrased1::embarrased1:


A lot of times it is, but made in America is still very possible and plenty of companies still legitimately do it.

In my industry, there are those who legitimately make made in America products and there are those who claim to do it. For example, Ten Point Crossbows are legitimately 100% made in America. Everything on those bows is designed, sourced, assembled, and tested domestically. The only exception is the scope on top. There are no American made scopes.

Which brings me to the biggest imposter in the industry - Leupold. Claim to be made in America, market the hell out of that, not truly made in America. They are ASSEMBLED in America. Well, I should say that most are assembled in America. They've recently added a manufacturing facility in the Philippines that handles a lot of their lower end stuff. Still better than 100% outsourcing your manufacturing IMO, but still misleading. Virtually all of the components in those optics are outsourced.


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## ZacAttakk (Oct 20, 2014)

lab49232 said:


> Buying local or American made in 90% of cases is a joke. I said it, everyone secretly knows it. But since admitting it takes away your ability to feel superior to those who admit it we all pretend like it's a real thing. :embarrased1::embarrased1::embarrased1:
> 
> The only real exceptions are service type businesses (get a local barber instead of a chain Supercuts cut), restaurants, and well that's about it.


Why is it a joke? Why would you rather put money to the pockets of big corporations then put it the pockets of your neighbor, that will in turn put it back into the community because him being a local, small business owner understands the importance of supporting local economy


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## BurtonAvenger (Aug 14, 2007)

ZacAttakk said:


> Why is it a joke? Why would you rather put money to the pockets of big corporations then put it the pockets of your neighbor, that will in turn put it back into the community because him being a local, small business owner understands the importance of supporting local economy


News flash all businesses are in it to make money. Regardless if they're preaching American made or out sourcing. Stop with the illogical thinking. C.R.E.A.M.


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## Alkasquawlik (Jul 13, 2010)

Nivek said:


> Shop Kids. Guess what, there's a hell of a lot of pro's out there that have no interest in what their riding as long as it doesn't suck. They can't speak in detail about any one part of their gear. Same goes for a lot of shop kids. They're useless. Will tell you only what they brand rep told them in the clinic cause they don't know any better, and will push the brand who's hooking them up or stroked them the most.
> .


As a former shop kid, this is so true. I've worked with many guys (and girls) who were much better riders than I was, but couldn't sell a product to save their life. Mumbling and stumbling through bullshit marketing jargon to try and push a certain product onto a customer. And that's not taking into account the shop kids that vibe the fuck out of customers or the ones that can't even ride that well themselves. It's frustrating.


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## onel0wcubn (Oct 8, 2009)

I guess I'm one of the lucky few to still have multiple shops to choose from when going board and gear shopping. I'd say within a 20 mile radius I have at least 5 Privately owned well stocked board shops. In NORTHERN VIRGINIA where we get crap snow each season. They are just all skate shops in the summer and that allows them to stay open around here.


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## f00bar (Mar 6, 2014)

onel0wcubn said:


> I guess I'm one of the lucky few to still have multiple shops to choose from when going board and gear shopping. I'd say within a 20 mile radius I have at least 5 Privately owned well stocked board shops. In NORTHERN VIRGINIA where we get crap snow each season. They are just all skate shops in the summer and that allows them to stay open around here.


It's mostly because you are probably a DC suburb and salaries are high enough that they can fleece enough people to make a decent living.


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## ZacAttakk (Oct 20, 2014)

BurtonAvenger said:


> News flash all businesses are in it to make money. Regardless if they're preaching American made or out sourcing. Stop with the illogical thinking. C.R.E.A.M.


Of course they are in it to make money why else would they do it. That's not thinking illogically. It would be illogical to think that everyone is only out for them selves which is just not the case and is why we are where we are. Local businesses recycle a large share back through the community and make sure local decisions are fair for the people living in that area(because they are part of those people). There have been many situations in history that have proved buying local is one of the keys to a sustainable, thriving community. Its simply economics really.


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## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

BurtonAvenger said:


> News flash all businesses are in it to make money. Regardless if they're preaching American made or out sourcing. Stop with the illogical thinking. C.R.E.A.M.


Absolutely all for-profit businesses are in it to make money. That's a given.

Some companies are committed to the made in America concept as a foundation of their business practices. Others try to skate around the edges of it and just use it as a marketing ploy. Fuck the latter. They're the absolute worst IMO. You wanna outsource? Fine. Own it. Don't try to sugarcoat it.

From a pure profit perspective, the business decision to be made is whether or not going made in America is worth it. It's almost certainly going to drive up costs. Sourcing some materials is probably going to be a pain in the ass. But, it is going to give you a significant leg up in the marketing for a good chunk of customers. Is it worth it? That's for the individual business to decide for their model.

But, berating people for valuing "made in America" while at the same time preaching for them to "buy local"? THAT'S the bullshit and that's what I see a lot of people in and around the snowboarding industry doing.


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## cerebroside (Nov 6, 2012)

linvillegorge said:


> ...
> From a pure profit perspective, the business decision to be made is whether or not going made in America is worth it. It's almost certainly going to drive up costs...


Kinda curious about this. Assuming the difference is just in labor costs, how many man hours of labor really goes into making each snowboard?


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## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

cerebroside said:


> Kinda curious about this. Assuming the difference is just in labor costs, how many man hours of labor really goes into making each snowboard?


A lot more than you'd think. But, it isn't just labor costs. You also have facility costs and other support costs that go into it. If you really try to go made in the America and source locally, you're going to likely have higher material costs as well.


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## lab49232 (Sep 13, 2011)

linvillegorge said:


> From a pure profit perspective, the business decision to be made is whether or not going made in America is worth it. It's almost certainly going to drive up costs. Sourcing some materials is probably going to be a pain in the ass. But, it is going to give you a significant leg up in the marketing for a good chunk of customers. Is it worth it? That's for the individual business to decide for their model.


This just isn't true. We've all been trained to believe it's true by media, blah blah, America is the best blah blah blah. Guess what, as this thread shows, people buy what they can get the best deal on. Don't get me wrong you put two identical products next to eachother and they are the same price but one says made in America sure that will sell more. But now put that made in America one at $5 more and all the sudden you find the majority of people change their morals pretty much instantly.

Second as mentioned 90% of American made simply isn't actually. And third why is Joe Schmo down in Florida more deserving of my $5 than Joe Schmo in Dubai? Are people from other countries simply not as worthy as Americans? I get wanting to support the little guy but made in America doesn't have anything to do with that.


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## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

lab49232 said:


> This just isn't true. We've all been trained to believe it's true by media, blah blah, America is the best blah blah blah. Guess what, as this thread shows, people buy what they can get the best deal on. Don't get me wrong you put two identical products next to eachother and they are the same price but one says made in America sure that will sell more. But now put that made in America one at $5 more and all the sudden you find the majority of people change their morals pretty much instantly.
> 
> Second as mentioned 90% of American made simply isn't actually. And third why is Joe Schmo down in Florida more deserving of my $5 than Joe Schmo in Dubai? Are people from other countries simply not as worthy as Americans? I get wanting to support the little guy but made in America doesn't have anything to do with that.


You're only looking at a small piece of the market. Yes, some people will buy the cheapest thing they can get. Others find made in America to be a value add. If you're building premium snowboards at a premium price point, you're already selectively not targeting the penny pinching customer.

Marketing is largely about image and made in America is a big part of the image of some companies.

You act like I'm preaching buy made in America. I'm not. I'm simply trying to explain the business dynamics of it.


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## Mizu Kuma (Apr 13, 2014)

Most will buy the cheapest they can get!!!!! (Unless it's rubbish) It's human nature!!!!! If you get somethin good at a great price, it's an endorphin boost!!!!! 

And this is what drives the market, and why countries like China are a major manufacturing exporter!!!!!


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## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

Mizu Kuma said:


> Most will buy the cheapest they can get!!!!! (Unless it's rubbish) It's human nature!!!!! If you get somethin good at a great price, it's an endorphin boost!!!!!
> 
> And this is what drives the market, and why countries like China are a major manufacturing exporter!!!!!


Then why do the likes of Never Summer and Mervin sell so many boards? They're certainly not appealing to the customer who is trying to buy the cheapest thing they can.
Given two identical products, most people will gravitate toward the cheapest price for aure. But that's not what we're talking about here. Nor are we talking about whether that difference is real or perceived. Perceived value is the only thing that truly matters in the marketplace.


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## lab49232 (Sep 13, 2011)

linvillegorge said:


> You're only looking at a small piece of the market. Yes, some people will buy the cheapest thing they can get. Others find made in America to be a value add. If you're building premium snowboards at a premium price point, you're already selectively not targeting the penny pinching customer.
> 
> Marketing is largely about image and made in America is a big part of the image of some companies.
> 
> You act like I'm preaching buy made in America. I'm not. I'm simply trying to explain the business dynamics of it.


I get you're only explaining it. However the large market is not supportive of made in America. Sure there are small niche markets that it does work well in. But in the overall large scale market it simply adds little value. The overwhelming majority of people value price over manufacturing origin plain and simple. And the concept behind why buying in America is better is actually flawed and essentially saying American lives are more important than anyone elses.


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## lab49232 (Sep 13, 2011)

linvillegorge said:


> Then why do the likes of Never Summer and Mervin sell so many boards? They're certainly not appealing to the customer who is trying to buy the cheapest thing they can.
> Given two identical products, most people will gravitate toward the cheapest price for aure. But that's not what we're talking about here. Nor are we talking about whether that difference is real or perceived. Perceived value is the only thing that truly matters in the marketplace.


Do you really think NS and Mervin sell more boards than all the other companies??????? Bahahahahaha they are tiny as far as market control. Made in America vs non made in America boards sales are like 2,000 to 1. Oh and Mervin advertises their boards as Made near Canada which is actually hysterical.


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## BurtonAvenger (Aug 14, 2007)

If you people only knew how many decks Mervin has unsold in their warehouse right now. Marketing is great.


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## KansasNoob (Feb 24, 2013)

lab49232 said:


> Do you really think NS and Mervin sell more boards than all the other companies??????? Bahahahahaha they are tiny as far as market control. Made in America vs non made in America boards sales are like 2,000 to 1. Oh and Mervin advertises their boards as Made near Canada which is actually hysterical.


Bro have you ever rode at any resort in CO? Not saying it's good or bad but there are a significant number of NS boards on the hill. 

I do appreciate how NS doesn't push the fake greenie enviro friendly BS that some companies do though...


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## lab49232 (Sep 13, 2011)

KansasNoob said:


> Bro have you ever rode at any resort in CO? Not saying it's good or bad but there are a significant number of NS boards on the hill.
> 
> I do appreciate how NS doesn't push the fake greenie enviro friendly BS that some companies do though...


Bro do you even bro? Or rather you do realize NS is a Colorado brand and has a massive following there and thus greatly skews what your seeing. Have you seen how much Burton stuff people wear outside the Burton headquarters? Or How about how much Mcdonalds gear their employees wear at work?


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## Brewtown (Feb 16, 2014)

linvillegorge said:


> Then why do the likes of Never Summer and Mervin sell so many boards? They're certainly not appealing to the customer who is trying to buy the cheapest thing they can.
> Given two identical products, most people will gravitate toward the cheapest price for aure. But that's not what we're talking about here. Nor are we talking about whether that difference is real or perceived. Perceived value is the only thing that truly matters in the marketplace.


Pretty much sums it up. I think most people find value in supprting local business and American made products but its going to greatly vary what thats worth to you. For me, if I could find snowboard gear at my local shop for even close to the prices available online then I would much rather give them my business but unfortunately thats just not the case.


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## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

lab49232 said:


> I get you're only explaining it. However the large market is not supportive of made in America. Sure there are small niche markets that it does work well in. But in the overall large scale market it simply adds little value. The overwhelming majority of people value price over manufacturing origin plain and simple. And the concept behind why buying in America is better is actually flawed and essentially saying American lives are more important than anyone elses.


But, if you'll notice, made in America is primarily pushed in niche markets.

It doesn't matter if the concept is flawed or not, if it provides a value add to the targeted demographic then it's effective.


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## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

BurtonAvenger said:


> If you people only knew how many decks Mervin has unsold in their warehouse right now. Marketing is great.


I don't doubt it. Marketing can't make up for gross overproduction.


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## BurtonAvenger (Aug 14, 2007)

Marketing can't make up for gross under selling as well.


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## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

BurtonAvenger said:


> Marketing can't make up for gross under selling as well.


Well, that depends on where th e sales are failing. There are a ton of shitty products out there that get moved in huge numbers based primarily on stellar marketing.


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## lab49232 (Sep 13, 2011)

linvillegorge said:


> But, if you'll notice, made in America is primarily pushed in niche markets.
> 
> It doesn't matter if the concept is flawed or not, if it provides a value add to the targeted demographic then it's effective.


Right so we agree it only works in rare situations, thus why like I said an hour ago buying American made 90% of the time is a joke.


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## Altephor (Feb 4, 2010)

I buy online, it has nothing to do with cheaper prices. From what I've seen, the price on evo.com or backcountry is the same as my local Eastern Boarder. The difference is, Eastern Boarder might have 2-3 brands available, whereas online you can find whatever you want. Even the brands they do have, they don't carry the full line-up. This issue was even more glaring when helping my girlfriend into her first gear set up. The local shops (Eastern Boarder, NOTB) usually had 1-3 pairs of women's boots, and they were the same ones in every shop (32 STW, Ride Hera, Ride Sage). Luckily she found something she liked, so it was all good.

Same with bindings and boards. Usually 4-5 brands, same boards, only in the most popular, mid-range sizes. I mean look anywhere on these forums and you have a million posts about, 'Hmm, should I get 151 or 153'. Differences of 2 cm, and then people are wondering why shops suffer when they don't offer all the sizes. I was looking at maybe upgrading my older bindings, all local shops have a few brands (usually Union, Ride, Burton, and/or K2), and then usually only 1-2 representatives from that brand. Union, for instance, they usually carry Forces and 1 other (seen a lot of places carry Forces and Contact Pros). Finding brands like Flux or Now has been near impossible over here.

And no one likes to have to drive to 5-6 stores to find something that they can order in their underwear at 2 am. Especially on major shopping days (Black Friday, Labor Day, etc) when the already limited selection is going to be absolutely destroyed.


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## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

lab49232 said:


> Right so we agree it only works in rare situations, thus why like I said an hour ago buying American made 90% of the time is a joke.


Except in the situations where it works, which is pretty much the only situations where it is actually used.


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## lab49232 (Sep 13, 2011)

linvillegorge said:


> Except in the situations where it works, which is pretty much the only situations where it is actually used.


No, people here were all saying they should buy American made, and in this industry that's a joke as well. And hence my statement which still stands as correct.


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## Mizu Kuma (Apr 13, 2014)

linvillegorge said:


> Then why do the likes of Never Summer and Mervin sell so many boards? They're certainly not appealing to the customer who is trying to buy the cheapest thing they can.
> Given two identical products, most people will gravitate toward the cheapest price for aure. But that's not what we're talking about here. Nor are we talking about whether that difference is real or perceived. Perceived value is the only thing that truly matters in the marketplace.


Hence why I said (unless it's rubbish)!!!!!

What are the top sellin cars in the U.S. these days????? Chevy, Ford????? 

I'm not sure, but here in Australia the good old Aussie Made Holden isn't doin so well these days!!!!! 

On the same hand, either are cheap brands such as Great Wall or Mahindra!!!!!

The overwhelming majority of people want bang for their buck, and where the product is made/built or even who owns it, doesn't really come into play!!!!! (Unless the company has done somethin insidious) 

When you buy your fruit and veg, do you know where it came from?????


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## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

lab49232 said:


> No, people here were all saying they should buy American made, and in this industry that's a joke as well. And hence my statement which still stands as correct.


Wait... what?


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## f00bar (Mar 6, 2014)

I'm still trying to figure out how my Cost Cutters haircut hurts America. It worked perfect getting my RV back across the border from Mexico.


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## lab49232 (Sep 13, 2011)

linvillegorge said:


> Wait... what?


American made in snowboarding is a joke. It doesn't work here. There is no reason to even suggest it does. Yes NS and Mervin sell boards. No They actually don't sell a lot, and no Mervin is not actually doing that well as a company.


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## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

Mizu Kuma said:


> Hence why I said (unless it's rubbish)!!!!!
> 
> What are the top sellin cars in the U.S. these days????? Chevy, Ford?????
> 
> ...


You can't compare niche markets to mass markets. Your fruits and veggies comparison is a good one and would work if you were talking about the niche market of locally grown organic produce. The customer buying their produce at Wal-Mart doesn't give a damn where it comes from. The customer paying triple the price at Whole Foods does.

In niche markets, made in America can be a value add to a good chunk of customers. That's all I'm saying. I'm not saying it matters to everyone or even most people, but in a niche market it can be one factor that makes you stand out and give you an edge.

Come out to CO resorts and start talking to all the people who ride NS boards. I'd be willing to bet a lot of money that the majority of people you talk to will mention the fact that NS is made in Colorado as part of their buying decision. You'd probably see the same thing with Mervin in the PNW. Now, whether or not you think that is dumb is irrelevant. It's reality.


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## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

lab49232 said:


> American made in snowboarding is a joke. It doesn't work here. There is no reason to even suggest it does. Yes NS and Mervin sell boards. No They actually don't sell a lot, and no Mervin is not actually doing that well as a company.


Read my last post. You're wrong.

Those guys don't sell a lot of boards compared to say a Burton, but they sell enough boards to carve themselves out a nice niche in the marketplace. Hence, my comments that made in America can be a significant value add in NICHE markets.


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## Mizu Kuma (Apr 13, 2014)

linvillegorge said:


> You can't compare niche markets to mass markets. Your fruits and veggies comparison is a good one and would work if you were talking about the niche market of locally grown organic produce. The customer buying their produce at Wal-Mart doesn't give a damn where it comes from. The customer paying triple the price at Whole Foods does.
> 
> In niche markets, made in America can be a value add to a good chunk of customers. That's all I'm saying. I'm not saying it matters to everyone or even most people, but in a niche market it can be one factor that makes you stand out and give you an edge.
> 
> Come out to CO resorts and start talking to all the people who ride NS boards. I'd be willing to bet a lot of money that the majority of people you talk to will mention the fact that NS is made in Colorado as part of their buying decision. You'd probably see the same thing with Mervin in the PNW. Now, whether or not you think that is dumb is irrelevant. It's reality.


I understand what you're sayin, but I don't think these people are the majority?????

Just like the whole foods crew, and the Honda drivers, they're in the minority!!!!!


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## lab49232 (Sep 13, 2011)

linvillegorge said:


> Read my last post. You're wrong.
> 
> Those guys don't sell a lot of boards compared to say a Burton, but they sell enough boards to carve themselves out a nice niche in the marketplace. Hence, my comments that made in America can be a significant value *add in NICHE markets*.


You simply make no sense. The Niche market in their own brand? No that's not a thing, their market is snowboards, in which if they weren't made in America not only would they produce a better product, they would sell a ton more of it. If you think the majority of the small board NS does sell are because they're made here then you're mistaken.


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## ShredLife (Feb 6, 2010)

.... yea but my dick is bigger than your dick.


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## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

lab49232 said:


> You simply make no sense. The Niche market in their own brand? No that's not a thing, their market is snowboards, in which if they weren't made in America not only would they produce a better product, they would sell a ton more of it. If you think the majority of the small board NS does sell are because they're made here then you're mistaken.


Sigh...

Please never go into marketing or for that matter anything that requires reading comprehension skills.


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## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

Mizu Kuma said:


> I understand what you're sayin, but I don't think these people are the majority?????
> 
> Just like the whole foods crew, and the Honda drivers, they're in the minority!!!!!


That's exactly my point. That's what a niche market is.


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## ZacAttakk (Oct 20, 2014)

linvillegorge said:


> Sigh...
> 
> Please never go into marketing or for that matter anything that requires reading comprehension skills.


and people wonder why our economy is in the shitter.......... Example A


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## miplatt88 (May 13, 2013)

ShredLife said:


> .... yea but my dick is bigger than your dick.


pics or GTFO....:happy:


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## lab49232 (Sep 13, 2011)

linvillegorge said:


> Sigh...
> 
> Please never go into marketing or for that matter anything that requires reading comprehension skills.


Sadly I do both for a living. You're saying NS is a successful brand that's made in the US and using it to prove it works. I never said they weren't. The made in the US is not why they are making money and being made in the US is actually holding them back as a brand is my point. The only exception is that it allows them to produce in smaller quantities and no have to meet outside manufacturer production limits helping them not flood markets.


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## Mizu Kuma (Apr 13, 2014)

linvillegorge said:


> That's exactly my point. That's what a niche market is.


This is how most brands start out though!!!!!

Will Never Summer always be a Niche Brand????? 

I'm positive that Burton was a Niche Brand at some stage!!!!!

Are NS boards cheaper than they used to be????? I know they were really expensive here in Australia a few years back, but I have no idea on the RRP these days?????


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## Mizu Kuma (Apr 13, 2014)

ShredLife said:


> .... yea but my dick is bigger than your dick.


Have you been listenin to that coffee shit of yours again?????


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## ShredLife (Feb 6, 2010)

miplatt88 said:


> pics or GTFO....:happy:


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## f00bar (Mar 6, 2014)

Why do we assume that they care about Burtonesque world domination? As a small privately owned company maybe they are doing just as they want to do. Being private we really have no insight to their financials. Much like the local distillery who is perfectly happy selling in their locality my guess is so are they. Not to mention they'd need a chunk of capitol they probably don't have to make such a move.


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## ridinbend (Aug 2, 2012)

Your all wrong


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## ShredLife (Feb 6, 2010)

ridinbend said:


> *Your* all wrong


*you're got shittay grammerz


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## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

Mizu Kuma said:


> This is how most brands start out though!!!!!
> 
> Will Never Summer always be a Niche Brand?????
> 
> ...



Every brand has to start as a niche brand. It just depends on how you want to grow your brand. It's risky to make the leap and go for mass appeal. It can backfire. You can get overextended financially, you can alienate your core customers, and if it doesn't work you may very well kill your business.

From the outside looking in, I see no indication that NS wants to grow out of their premium niche. To grow beyond a niche brand, you have to have mass appeal to fit the needs of the market as a whole. You can't do that with $500+ boards. I see no indication of NS wanting to play in those other markets. Several years ago they came out with a lower priced board called The System if I remember correctly, but it disappeared from the lineup awhile ago and has never been replaced. I see that as a sign that NS wants to stay in the premium niche. Now, they definitely seem to be actively trying to grow within that niche, but I see no signs of them looking to step outside of it and go for mass appeal within the snowboarding market as a whole.


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## Mizu Kuma (Apr 13, 2014)

linvillegorge said:


> Every brand has to start as a niche brand. It just depends on how you want to grow your brand. It's risky to make the leap and go for mass appeal. It can backfire. You can get overextended financially, you can alienate your core customers, and if it doesn't work you may very well kill your business.
> 
> From the outside looking in, I see no indication that NS wants to grow out of their premium niche. To grow beyond a niche brand, you have to have mass appeal to fit the needs of the market as a whole. You can't do that with $500+ boards. I see no indication of NS wanting to play in those other markets. Several years ago they came out with a lower priced board called The System if I remember correctly, but it disappeared from the lineup awhile ago and has never been replaced. I see that as a sign that NS wants to stay in the premium niche.


Actually, one of the most safest ways to grow your brand is slowly!!!!! That's why a lot that have taken the other path have either gone huge, or gone bust!!!!!

This doesn't mean that NS will never be a mainstream brand at one point?????

And if/when it does, it will no longer be a backyard builder!!!!!

We can buy NS here in Australia, and our market has to be one of (if not the) smallest in the world!!!!! Why would NS bother exporting to us if they wanted to keep it niche?????


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## Manicmouse (Apr 7, 2014)

How is NS serving a niche market compared to the rest of the snowboarding industry? They're not exactly doing anything that different.

Is the niche market people who love Denver-built snowboards that use the RCR profile?!!


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## ridinbend (Aug 2, 2012)

ShredLife said:


> *you're got shittay grammerz


:facepalm1:

I read through the whole thread after waking up (working nights will fry your brain) and all the poo flinging must have gotten me all twisted up. I never do that. 

We all know shops are dying, but the resilient ones will evolve with the progressing economy. There's ways to stay ahead of the chopping block if you have the ability to be creative with ones shop.


----------



## lab49232 (Sep 13, 2011)

Manicmouse said:


> How is NS serving a niche market compared to the rest of the snowboarding industry? They're not exactly doing anything that different.
> 
> Is the niche market people who love Denver-built snowboards that use the RCR profile?!!


:laughat::laughat::laughat::laughat::laughat: Careful he's gonna need to insult your intelligence now and say a bunch of other stuff that doesn't make sense.

But to get back to the original meaning of the post, one of the main reason boards shops are going out of business is because that's what people actually want. Demand drives supply, and people are demanding to be able to buy their gear from their couch. 

Where do people get this idea that big companies are evil and putting these small shops out of business. It's the small shops not being able to provide the customer with what the customer wants that's putting them out of business. People don't want to shop in stores it's just that simple.


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## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

Mizu Kuma said:


> Actually, one of the most safest ways to grow your brand is slowly!!!!! That's why a lot that have taken the other path have either gone huge, or gone bust!!!!!
> 
> This doesn't mean that NS will never be a mainstream brand at one point?????
> 
> ...


You're not understanding what I'm saying. Their niche is premium snowboards. I see no signs of them wanting to expand beyond that and make a more diverse lineup of boards at a variety of price points. That's what you have to do in order to become a Burton level manufacturer. NS clearly wants to expand and grow their business within that premium niche and that's smart and safe. Trying to make that jump to mass appeal is where the real risks lie. It's pretty much a boom or bust proposition with the odds heavily favoring bust.

Mervin is in an interesting spot if they really are sitting on a ton of unsold product. They can either blow it out and risk damaging the perceived value of their brand or they can take it in the ass, eat a big loss and destroy that product and get their supply chain back in proper order. Blowing it out makes the most since on the surface, but in the long run, if they can afford to eat the loss, I'd lean toward destroying the product to be honest. There may be some additional opotions if they get creative. Donating some boards to youth programs, charity raffles, etc? Win/win situation. That could be spun for some great PR and used for significant tax right offs. I would just be very leary of blowing it out at ridiculously low prices for fear of damaging the perceived value in the marketplace. That can be tough to recover from.


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## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

NS has nothing to do with the demise of retail.
They make a product. People buy it, have fun with it. It's not bad, it's not the best. Nobody makes the be all end all best product... but more importantly, nobody really needs that to have a blast on the hill.

I wish i could have a board from each brand. Would be cool. Spread the cash, spread the stoke. I'm working on it :hairy:


----------



## highme (Dec 2, 2012)

ShredLife said:


>


----------



## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

Manicmouse said:


> How is NS serving a niche market compared to the rest of the snowboarding industry? They're not exactly doing anything that different.
> 
> Is the niche market people who love Denver-built snowboards that use the RCR profile?!!


Every market has different segments and niches. Look at Never Summer's lineup. It's pretty much all $500+ price points and it's all CRC boards. They're clearly not trying to appeal to everyone in the market.

Honda and Mercedes both make cars and McDonald's and Five Guys both make hamburgers. Are they direct competitors with each other, in moat cases probably not.


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## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

lab49232 said:


> :laughat::laughat::laughat::laughat::laughat: Careful he's gonna need to insult your intelligence now and say a bunch of other stuff that doesn't make sense.


It doesn't make sense to you because you don't know what you're talking about. That's okay, but you should probably just STFU to be honest. I'm not arguing with BA about outdated fiberglass and what not because honestly I don't know. I'll defer to him on that. He knows the ins and outs of a snowboard a helluva lot better than I do.

But, THIS is what I do. I've been in sales, marketing, and brand positioning my entire career. I will directly handle a little over $20M in business total business this year. When it comes to this shit, I know what the fuck I'm doing.


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## lab49232 (Sep 13, 2011)

linvillegorge said:


> It doesn't make sense to you because you don't know what you're talking about. That's okay, but you should probably just STFU to be honest. I'm not arguing with BA about outdated fiberglass and what not because honestly I don't know. I'll defer to him on that. He knows the ins and outs of a snowboard a helluva lot better than I do.
> 
> But, THIS is what I do. I've been in sales, marketing, and brand positioning my entire career. I will directly handle a little over $20M in business total business this year. When it comes to this shit, I know what the fuck I'm doing.


Coolio sounds like we have pretty similar jobs. 

Oh and making only CRC boards doesn't make you a niche company. Bataleon would be a niche company if you want to believe there are niche segments of snowboards outside splitboards. Never Summer is basically the same as every other high dollar brand. Arbor only makes their System Rocker are they Niche too? Yes they are in a different segment than companies like Lamar or Morrow but other than that they are in the same company as all the other companies out there.


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## Homies911 (Sep 10, 2014)

linvillegorge said:


> ...McDonald's and Five Guys both make hamburgers...


...please don't...it's 3:12 and I haven't ate lunch yet because of work at awkward times... :sad2:


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## Bones (Feb 24, 2008)

The demise of retail isn't limited to the snowsports industry. Just take a look at what used to be sold almost exclusively at bricks and mortar location and see how many exist now: PC sales and service places used to exist on every street corner, now there is only a handful of independents and some big box stores. Auto parts, stereo stores, music retailers, bookstores, a lot of clothing chains, etc.

If what you sell can be sold like a commodity, then somewhere an online retailer is licking his chops.It is just a matter of time and the change will probably be good for some local retailers. Sure, your town may drop from 6 half-assed retailers to only 2, but those 2 will stronger and more stable and will be forced to offer value-added service. I can see a day where every brick and mortar shop will have to have a great boot-fitter on staff or they will fade away.


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## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

lab49232 said:


> Coolio sounds like we have pretty similar jobs.
> 
> Oh and making only CRC boards doesn't make you a niche company. Bataleon would be a niche company if you want to believe there are niche segments of snowboards outside splitboards. Never Summer is basically the same as every other high dollar brand. Arbor only makes their System Rocker are they Niche too? Yes they are in a different segment than companies like Lamar or Morrow but other than that they are in the same company as all the other companies out there.


Bataleon on is absolutely a niche company due to TBT. It's a love it or hate it thing and if yo7 want it you have to get a Bataleon. That is definitely niche.

As far as Arbor goes, what in the NS lineup would you consider a direct competitor with say a Whiskey or Draft? Those are boards that retail for under $400. Where's NS's entry in that segment of the market? They don't have one. I'm pretty sure at least the A Frame is still traditional camber too.


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## lab49232 (Sep 13, 2011)

linvillegorge said:


> Bataleon on is absolutely a niche company due to TBT. It's a love it or hate it thing and if yo7 want it you have to get a Bataleon. That is definitely niche.
> 
> As far as Arbor goes, what in the NS lineup would you consider a direct competitor with say a Whiskey or Draft? Those are boards that retail for under $400. Where's NS's entry in that segment of the market? They don't have one.


So were throwing out your CRC explanation for niche that easily, good that saves that. So $50-$75 price difference in a $500 snowboard makes them niche... Ya I don't see how that works. That's a difference of about 15% in other words it would be like saying a $20 t-shirt and a $22 are completely different markets. Never Summer simply starts their line about one board less down the list than a lot of other companies. 

If you want to say having one minor difference makes you niche then there is no non niche brand out there in any category. KFC is a niche fast food place because it doesn't offer a dollar menu... Oh wait.


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## 16gkid (Dec 5, 2012)

Mizu Kuma said:


> Are NS boards cheaper than they used to be????? I know they were really expensive here in Australia a few years back, but I have no idea on the RRP these days?????


Considering you can get a equal/better performing board(with better quality) for half the price of a NS yeah they are hilariously expensive, and all these lemmings just eat that shit up!


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## SnowDogWax (Nov 8, 2013)

lab49232 said:


> This just isn't true. We've all been trained to believe it's true by media, blah blah, America is the best blah blah blah. Guess what, as this thread shows, people buy what they can get the best deal on. Don't get me wrong you put two identical products next to eachother and they are the same price but one says made in America sure that will sell more. But now put that made in America one at $5 more and all the sudden you find the majority of people change their morals pretty much instantly.
> 
> Second as mentioned 90% of American made simply isn't actually. And third why is Joe Schmo down in Florida more deserving of my $5 than Joe Schmo in Dubai? Are people from other countries simply not as worthy as Americans? I get wanting to support the little guy but made in America doesn't have anything to do with that.


:blahblah:

This just isn't true. Your the one that has been trained by media... Very hard pressed to find the liberal news media proposing and inking buy AMERICAN. So just stop this Joe Schmo liberal Dubal 5$ crap for not supporting AMERICAN. Just study how AMERICAN goods, patents, & intellectual property are treated with tariffs, copied, stolen ++ by other countries.  







SnowDog | SnowDogWax.com


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## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

lab49232 said:


> So were throwing out your CRC explanation for niche that easily, good that saves that. So $50-$75 price difference in a $500 snowboard makes them niche... Ya I don't see how that works. That's a difference of about 15% in other words it would be like saying a $20 t-shirt and a $22 are completely different markets. Never Summer simply starts their line about one board less down the list than a lot of other companies.
> 
> If you want to say having one minor difference makes you niche then there is no non niche brand out there in any category. KFC is a niche fast food place because it doesn't offer a dollar menu... Oh wait.


As far as I know, Arbor still makes some traditional cambered boards in their lineup. I don't think they're all system rocker. Heavily dominated by system rocker, but not exclusively sy stem rocker.

The Whiskey and Draft retail at $395. NS's lowest priced adult board is the Evo and it retails for $510. That's a $115 price jump over the Whiskey/Draft. That is close to 30% and VERY significant. 

I have to ask, are you being intentionally dense here? I sincerely hope so.


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## lab49232 (Sep 13, 2011)

linvillegorge said:


> As far as I know, Arbor still makes some traditional cambered boards in their lineup. I don't think they're all system rocker. Heavily dominated by system rocker, but not exclusively sy stem rocker.
> 
> The Whiskey and Draft retail at $395. NS's lowest priced adult board is the Evo and it retails for $510. That's a $115 price jump over the Whiskey/Draft. That is close to 30% and VERY significant.
> 
> I have to ask, are you being intentionally dense here? I sincerely hope so.


Correction you mean mens board. Last I checked their Infinity is $470. Being niche requires you to offer something icompletely different than any other company and to have seperated yourself. They don't. Every (normal) board company out there makes >$500 boards that compete with NS. So no I'm not being dense, I'm saying Never Summer is a normal snowboard company. Why you feel the need for NS to be better and different than everyone else blows my mind but i guess we all need our thing.


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## Mizu Kuma (Apr 13, 2014)

linvillegorge said:


> You're not understanding what I'm saying. Their niche is premium snowboards. I see no signs of them wanting to expand beyond that and make a more diverse lineup of boards at a variety of price points. That's what you have to do in order to become a Burton level manufacturer. NS clearly wants to expand and grow their business within that premium niche and that's smart and safe. Trying to make that jump to mass appeal is where the real risks lie. It's pretty much a boom or bust proposition with the odds heavily favoring bust.
> 
> Mervin is in an interesting spot if they really are sitting on a ton of unsold product. They can either blow it out and risk damaging the perceived value of their brand or they can take it in the ass, eat a big loss and destroy that product and get their supply chain back in proper order. Blowing it out makes the most since on the surface, but in the long run, if they can afford to eat the loss, I'd lean toward destroying the product to be honest. There may be some additional opotions if they get creative. Donating some boards to youth programs, charity raffles, etc? Win/win situation. That could be spun for some great PR and used for significant tax right offs. I would just be very leary of blowing it out at ridiculously low prices for fear of damaging the perceived value in the marketplace. That can be tough to recover from.


While I'm not a gamblin man, I can pretty much bet my balls that if Never Summer started to go backwards in sales, they'd soon break their niche'ness!!!!!

I don't blame them either, cause while they might've started out makin boards for the sheer love if it, if it no longer brings food to the table, they're not gonna be in it for much longer!!!!! People like the NS Crew started the company cause they have drive!!!!! Soon as that momentum slows, they're gonna want to put that foot back on the gas!!!!!

This is reality no matter how patriotic you are!!!!!


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## lab49232 (Sep 13, 2011)

SnowDogWax said:


> :blahblah:
> 
> This just isn't true. Your the one that has been trained by media... Very hard pressed to find the liberal news media proposing and inking buy AMERICAN. So just stop this Joe Schmo liberal Dubal 5$ crap for not supporting AMERICAN. Just study how AMERICAN goods, patents, & intellectual property are treated with tariffs, copied, stolen ++ by other countries.
> 
> ...


What? I couldn't follow 2 seconds of that... Screw the liberal media, screw all the biased media. other than that I don't even know how to respond because I can't begin to understand what you were insinuating. Just read it a third time and nope still nothing. Feel free to clarify.

And yes "AMERICAN goods, patents, & intellectual property are treated with tariffs, copied, stolen ++ by other countries" this does happen. It also happens in America by other American companies all day every day to. You really think the other countries out there are evil and we get screwed and have stuff stolen from us? I'm not sure if that's what you're saying cause that was one cryptic post but if so that's some funny ish.


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## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

lab49232 said:


> Correction you mean mens board. Last I checked their Infinity is $470. Being niche requires you to offer something icompletely different than any other company and to have seperated yourself. They don't. Every (normal) board company out there makes >$500 boards that compete with NS. So no I'm not being dense, I'm saying Never Summer is a normal snowboard company. Why you feel the need for NS to be better and different than everyone else blows my mind but i guess we all need our thing.


Damn, that sucks. You're just dumb then.

If you think I believe that NS is better than everyone else, then you haven't paid much attention around here. Hell, there have been times when I've been one of their biggest critics on here. I own five boards at the moment and exactly one of them is an NS and that board is from 2010.

I figured it went without saying that I was talking about men's boards considering I was comparing to the Arbor Whiskey and Draft, both of which are men's boards.

You've displayed a clear and thorough misunderstanding of markets on this thread, specifically what a niche market is. Your above post clearly highlights that.


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## lab49232 (Sep 13, 2011)

linvillegorge said:


> Damn, that sucks. You're just dumb then.
> 
> If you think I believe that NS is better than everyone else, then you haven't paid much attention around here. Hell, there have been times when I've been one of their biggest critics on here. I own five boards at the moment and exactly one of them is an NS and that board is from 2010.
> 
> ...


I never said you were a NS fanboy which is why I said I was so confused by your constant need to say they're different. They aren't. Bataleon is niche, splitboards are niche. Never Summer isn't. You tell me what niche market NS is in and I'd love to see it. The $500 board market is maybe just barely above average. $800 boards niche market. But most name brand boards range from 400-600 which is right where NS sits. For them to be niche because of price you would be saying people go out and buy Gnu, Burton, Arbor, Etc all because they are just so much cheaper. Sorry but that aint happening. How many threads on here are people asking between a NS, a Lib and a Burton. It's because they're in the exact same group. 

Maybe you want to go back to them selling CRC is niche?


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## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

lab49232 said:


> I never said you were a NS fanboy which is why I said I was so confused by your constant need to say they're different. They aren't. Bataleon is niche, splitboards are niche. Never Summer isn't. You tell me what niche market NS is in and I'd love to see it. The $500 board market is maybe just barely above average. $800 boards niche market. But most name brand boards range from 400-600 which is right where NS sits. For them to be niche because of price you would be saying people go out and buy Gnu, Burton, Arbor, Etc all because they are just so much cheaper. Sorry but that aint happening. How many threads on here are people asking between a NS, a Lib and a Burton. It's because they're in the exact same group.
> 
> Maybe you want to go back to them selling CRC is niche?


You clearly tried to argue a few posts ago that Bataleon was not a niche market. According to your ludicrous definition, splitboards aren't a niche market either since lots of companies make them. You also clearly insinuated that I was a NS fanboy in your last post. You can't even keep your own arguments straight.

A niche market is simply a specialized marketplace, nothing more, nothing less. Now, let's look at NS... All of their adult men's boards range from $509ish - $600ish. That's a fairly narrow range toward the higher end of the market. All of their boards are CRC in a market with lots of different camber profiles. They feature carbonium topsheets on several models which is pretty different from the rest of the market. They're made in America, unlike most of the other boards on the market. Sounding like a pretty specialized company, no?

But hell, most of that really doesn't matter. The niche market that NS competes in is simply the premium snowboard market, period. Most of those details were simply manners in which NS decides to try to compete within that market. The premium snowboard market would be relatively comparable to the high end sports car market. They're clearly not trying to appeal to everyone and they don't pretend to be trying to do that. You can't appeal to the entire snowboarding market when you're concentrating solely on $500+ specialized snowboards. Some of NS's direct competion is Burton, Arbor, etc. because those companies also produce premium snowboards, but they don't solely focus on only that market. 

Alright, I'm done here. If that doesn't make sense to you, then I can't help you and at this point I'm feeling the need to start charging tuition if I continue.


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## CassMT (Mar 14, 2013)

stop what insanity?


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## Mizu Kuma (Apr 13, 2014)

CassMT said:


> stop what insanity?


Hahahahaaa, it was only a matter of time!!!!!


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## lab49232 (Sep 13, 2011)

linvillegorge said:


> You clearly tried to argue a few posts ago that Bataleon was not a niche market. According to your ludicrous definition, splitboards aren't a niche market either since lots of companies make them. You also clearly insinuated that I was a NS fanboy in your last post. You can't even keep your own arguments straight.
> 
> A niche market is simply a specialized marketplace, nothing more, nothing less. Now, let's look at NS... All of their adult men's boards range from $509ish - $600ish. That's a fairly narrow range toward the higher end of the market. All of their boards are CRC in a market with lots of different camber profiles. They feature carbonium topsheets on several models which is pretty different from the rest of the market. They're made in America, unlike most of the other boards on the market. Sounding like a pretty specialized company, no?
> 
> ...


Now who needs to learn to read. I never argued Bataleon wasn't niche. Just the opposite. My exact quote was "Oh and making only CRC boards doesn't make you a niche company. Bataleon would be a niche company if you want to believe there are niche segments of snowboards outside splitboards." 

This was me showing an example of what a niche segment of the market would be. Splitboards are niche, and if you want to create other niche markets in snowboarding they would be something like Bataleon would fit as they offer something to a tiny market inside the larger market that is snowboarding. 

NS is not in a tiny market. They are in granted the higher end of average but still average board market. No way are they a sports car. Those would be the Burton Mystery, Cygnus X1, Jones Carbon series, All the custom manufacturers, etc. There is a niche market to the high end snowboard world that would equate to the Ferrari, Lamborghini, Maserati but NS is not in it.


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## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

lab49232 said:


> Coolio sounds like we have pretty similar jobs.
> 
> Oh and making only CRC boards doesn't make you a niche company. Bataleon would be a niche company if you want to believe there are niche segments of snowboards outside splitboards. Never Summer is basically the same as every other high dollar brand. Arbor only makes their System Rocker are they Niche too? Yes they are in a different segment than companies like Lamar or Morrow but other than that they are in the same company as all the other companies out there.


You only argued Bataleon was niche after I berated your shitty argument.


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## CassMT (Mar 14, 2013)

Mizu Kuma said:


> Hahahahaaa, it was only a matter of time!!!!!


lost track of the point...but, stop the insanity of basic market forces in this capitalist wasteland? good luck with that


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## lab49232 (Sep 13, 2011)

linvillegorge said:


> You only argued Bataleon was niche after I berated your shitty argument.


Hey man no need to get angry. 

But no I brought up Bataleon first right after you were going on youwent off on your Never Summer is a Niche brand and then went in to your "I'm a big guy who handles millions of dollars in product and am far superior to you" rant... But way to attempt to deflect from your obvious error in reading comprehension and obvious miscalculation of NS's place in the market. :happy:


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## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

CassMT said:


> lost track of the point...but, stop the insanity of basic market forces in this capitalist wasteland? good luck with that


Kinda like when BA gets his panties in a wad when people try to argue with him over snowboard tech, I do the same when people try to argue with me in my specialty. Especially when it's plainly obvious this guy has absolutely no fucking clue what he's talking about. 

I know I'm just beating my head against the wall, but I'm laid up right now and just bored.


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## lab49232 (Sep 13, 2011)

linvillegorge said:


> Kinda like when BA gets his panties in a wad when people try to argue with him over snowboard tech, I do the same when people try to argue with me in my specialty. Especially when it's plainly obvious this guy has absolutely no fucking clue what he's talking about.
> 
> I know I'm just beating my head against the wall, but I'm laid up right now and just bored.


God we're so alike. Wait, you're not my alter ego are you?


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## CassMT (Mar 14, 2013)

that wasn't @ you linvillle, only read the OP


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## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

lab49232 said:


> Hey man no need to get angry.
> 
> But no I brought up Bataleon first right after you were going on youwent off on your Never Summer is a Niche brand and then went in to your "I'm a big guy who handles millions of dollars in product and am far superior to you" rant... But way to attempt to deflect from your obvious error in reading comprehension and obvious miscalculation of NS's place in the market. :happy:


Re-read your own post. You were clearly trying to argue Bataleon was not a niche company based on your ludicrously inaccurate definition of a niche market and using it to mock my concept of a niche market.

Hell, you claimed to have a similar job to mine. Based on your performance in this thread, there is absolutely no way in hell that is true.


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## ridinbend (Aug 2, 2012)

linvillegorge said:


> I know I'm just beating my head against the wall, but I'm laid up right now and just bored.


Were all beating our heads against a wall listening to the boys bicker. 

You injured from your slam?


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## wrathfuldeity (Oct 5, 2007)

Just saying sad insanity...miss my gorgeous sexy little shop gal that hooked up this old man with screws, bindings, ratchets and :eyetwitch2:...wait wrong forum....nevermind :facepalm3:


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## CassMT (Mar 14, 2013)

...yeah, you sure that was a board shop ?


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## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

ridinbend said:


> Were all beating our heads against a wall listening to the boys bicker.
> 
> You injured from your slam?


Yep, neck locked up and wife made me go to the doctor. They thought I'd broken the spinous process in my neck and did a bunch of x-rays. I'm good, just stiff and sore and eating muscle relaxers.

Meanwhile...


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## lab49232 (Sep 13, 2011)

linvillegorge said:


> Yep, neck locked up and wife made me go to the doctor. They thought I'd broken the spinous process in my neck and did a bunch of x-rays. I'm good, just stiff and sore and eating muscle relaxers.
> 
> Meanwhile...


Except you've stopped trying to defend yourself. Perhaps you're just a litlle :injured:

oke:


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## rambob (Mar 5, 2011)

wrathfuldeity said:


> Just saying sad insanity...miss my gorgeous sexy little shop gal that hooked up this old man with screws, bindings, ratchets and :eyetwitch2:...wait wrong forum....nevermind :facepalm3:


Thats a good one.


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## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

My position requires no defense. I'm just tired of arguing with someone who can't even remember his own arguments from a few posts ago and denies what his posts clearly imply when called out on it. I'm not going to continue conducting a free online seminar tonight. As BA has told posters in the past wanting snowboarding industry advice, I can arrange a fair consultation fee if you'd like me to continue to explain segmentations within specific markets and how a company can position itself for success within those niches.


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## ShredLife (Feb 6, 2010)




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## lab49232 (Sep 13, 2011)

linvillegorge said:


> My position requires no defense. I'm just tired of arguing with someone who can't even remember his own arguments from a few posts ago and denies what his posts clearly imply when called out on it. I'm not going to continue conducting a free online seminar tonight. As BA has told posters in the past wanting snowboarding industry advice, I can arrange a fair consultation fee if you'd like me to continue to explain segmentations within specific markets and how a company can position itself for success within those niches.


I remember my arguments well. In fact I quoted them when explaining how you were wrong and showed exactly how they were written and thus completely refuted your argument. Your response was "well I berated your shitty argument before that so whatever" Good thing you went in to business instead of law school.


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## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

lab49232 said:


> Coolio sounds like we have pretty similar jobs.
> 
> Oh and making only CRC boards doesn't make you a niche company. Bataleon would be a niche company if you want to believe there are niche segments of snowboards outside splitboards. Never Summer is basically the same as every other high dollar brand. Arbor only makes their System Rocker are they Niche too? Yes they are in a different segment than companies like Lamar or Morrow but other than that they are in the same company as all the other companies out there.





lab49232 said:


> Correction you mean mens board. Last I checked their Infinity is $470. Being niche requires you to offer something icompletely different than any other company and to have seperated yourself. They don't. Every (normal) board company out there makes >$500 boards that compete with NS. So no I'm not being dense, I'm saying Never Summer is a normal snowboard company. Why you feel the need for NS to be better and different than everyone else blows my mind but i guess we all need our thing.


So, you're going to continue trying to say that you didn't initially imply that Bataleon was not a niche company and you're going to continue trying to say that you didn't imply that I was a NS fanboy?


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## ShredLife (Feb 6, 2010)

linvillegorge said:


>


would/wood.


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## SnowDogWax (Nov 8, 2013)

lab49232 said:


> I remember my arguments well. In fact I quoted them when explaining how you were wrong and showed exactly how they were written and thus completely refuted your argument. Your response was "well I berated your shitty argument before that so whatever" Good thing you went in to business instead of law school.


As linvillegeorge said seminar is over.:closed:









SnowDog | SnowDogWax.com


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## lab49232 (Sep 13, 2011)

linvillegorge said:


> So, you're going to continue trying to say that you didn't initially imply that Bataleon was not a niche company and you're going to continue trying to say that you didn't imply that I was a NS fanboy?



Oh how I love Jen! Still haven't seen the new Hunger Games though so dont ruin it for me! BUt yup I will say those exactly sitll. I pretty directly stated that if you want to seperate the mid tier inline boards in to a niche market Bataleon would be niche, not NS...


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## CassMT (Mar 14, 2013)

i still want to talk more about the insanity


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## lab49232 (Sep 13, 2011)

SnowDogWax said:


> As linvillegeorge said seminar is over.:closed:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hey I could actually understand that post!


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## Mizu Kuma (Apr 13, 2014)

CassMT said:


> i still want to talk more about the insanity


That's just crazy talk!!!!!


----------



## Hank Scorpio (Oct 3, 2013)

Meh. I have a NS board and I like it. A lot of other people like theirs too. And in the end, doesn't that say everything that needs to be said about the brand?


----------



## SnowDogWax (Nov 8, 2013)

lab49232 said:


> Hey I could actually understand that post!


First time for everything...
















SnowDog | SnowDogWax.com[/URL]


----------



## ItchEtrigR (Jan 1, 2012)

All I got from this is if your requirements are that a board is CRC, made in the USA at a higher price point your part of a niche target consumer. How in the world does NS stay in business?


----------



## Handbanana (Dec 10, 2013)

Altephor said:


> I buy online, it has nothing to do with cheaper prices. From what I've seen, the price on evo.com or backcountry is the same as my local Eastern Boarder. The difference is, Eastern Boarder might have 2-3 brands available, whereas online you can find whatever you want. Even the brands they do have, they don't carry the full line-up. This issue was even more glaring when helping my girlfriend into her first gear set up. The local shops (Eastern Boarder, NOTB) usually had 1-3 pairs of women's boots, and they were the same ones in every shop (32 STW, Ride Hera, Ride Sage). Luckily she found something she liked, so it was all good.
> 
> Same with bindings and boards. Usually 4-5 brands, same boards, only in the most popular, mid-range sizes. I mean look anywhere on these forums and you have a million posts about, 'Hmm, should I get 151 or 153'. Differences of 2 cm, and then people are wondering why shops suffer when they don't offer all the sizes. I was looking at maybe upgrading my older bindings, all local shops have a few brands (usually Union, Ride, Burton, and/or K2), and then usually only 1-2 representatives from that brand. Union, for instance, they usually carry Forces and 1 other (seen a lot of places carry Forces and Contact Pros). Finding brands like Flux or Now has been near impossible over here.
> 
> And no one likes to have to drive to 5-6 stores to find something that they can order in their underwear at 2 am. Especially on major shopping days (Black Friday, Labor Day, etc) when the already limited selection is going to be absolutely destroyed.


Huh? The eastern boarder in natick has like 30-40 bindings on display, pretty much every binding in every colorway from the brands they carry, including 2 different "commission" bindings that are only available in 10 other stores across the country. Their binding boot and board selection is impressive, in men's at least, and while they might be out of a certain size of something, they do have 4 stores to pull stock from. Surprisingly, they don't seem to carry much outerwear though. I've found a lot of great deals there, and the guys I've dealt with know what they're talking about in my experiences. I'd much rather buy from them and take it home that day then wait a week from Evo or dogfunk. Hell, they had this years Billy Goat in stock in the beginning of March. 

Now notb on the other hand was not a great experience for me. The place felt super dirty, and the salesman wanted to talk shit about what I rode, even though he didn't even know what a Root is. Probably wont ever go back there.


----------



## Manicmouse (Apr 7, 2014)

Just because a company is small doesn't mean they're in a "niche market" either.


----------



## ridinbend (Aug 2, 2012)

Manicmouse said:


> Just because a company is small doesn't mean they're in a "niche market" either.


No need to stoke the poo flinging war. Let this thread die


----------



## Manicmouse (Apr 7, 2014)

ridinbend said:


> No need to stoke the poo flinging war. Let this thread die


True, I'm always 2 days out of date when I get to work on a Monday


----------



## chomps1211 (Mar 30, 2011)

Manicmouse said:


> True, I'm always 2 days out of date when I get to work on a Monday


:question: No interwebz at home?

Must be nice to be able to get to work and start the week by relaxing with your online entertainment? :huh: :blink:



…just yankin' your chain. :laugh: It's just that Until I started driving tractor trailer rigs for a living? I never had any kind of a job, office or otherwise where I had any opportunity at all to sit & watch anything. :shrug: It was always manual labor type jobs! No computers. Hell, for that matter, no desks either!  (…nowadays, with my iPhone & waiting on trucks to get loaded? I usually have plenty of time now to browse the forum & interwebz!) :lol:

I think that's why, while I still often have a lot of trouble deciphering internet slang & shorthand? It took me _FOREVER_ to figure out what NSFW meant! :lol:


----------



## Manicmouse (Apr 7, 2014)

chomps1211 said:


> :question: No interwebz at home?
> 
> Must be nice to be able to get to work and start the week by relaxing with your online entertainment? :huh: :blink:


Gotta ease myself into the day, real coffee (only aussies and kiwis understand this ), followed by some interwebs 

My kids are 1 and 3 so no time in the weekends for anything!


----------



## chomps1211 (Mar 30, 2011)

Manicmouse said:


> *…..My kids are 1 and 3 so no time in the weekends for anything!*


'Nuff said there! 



Manicmouse said:


> *Gotta ease myself into the day, real coffee (only aussies and kiwis understand this )*, followed by some interwebs


:question: :blink: …Puh-_leeeeeze!_ :handy: :blink: I practically need to have an IV installed to allow for fast, efficient, "_REAL_" coffee delivery! (Real,…! That means a french press, with a proper grind, and _NOT BOILING THE WATER!!!!_) :rofl4: :hairy:


Yeah,.. I understand perfectly! :lol:


----------



## cerebroside (Nov 6, 2012)

Manicmouse said:


> Gotta ease myself into the day, real coffee (only aussies and kiwis understand this ), followed by some interwebs
> 
> My kids are 1 and 3 so no time in the weekends for anything!


I haven't had a decent flat white since I left NZ. 
While I'm sure you can get decent coffee in North America, it isn't exactly common...


----------



## Manicmouse (Apr 7, 2014)

cerebroside said:


> I haven't had a decent flat white since I left NZ.
> While I'm sure you can get decent coffee in North America, it isn't exactly common...


When I lived in London you could only get good coffee from a few places, most cafes were chains with terrible coffee (Starbucks, Costa, Nero etc) so I feel your pain


----------



## ridinbend (Aug 2, 2012)

Manicmouse said:


> Gotta ease myself into the day, real coffee (only aussies and kiwis understand this ), followed by some interwebs
> 
> My kids are 1 and 3 so no time in the weekends for anything!


So what's the recipe to a cup of real coffee? ????? I'll male some right now! !!!!


----------



## Mizu Kuma (Apr 13, 2014)

ridinbend said:


> No need to stoke the poo flinging war. Let this thread die


He was offerin a niche post!!!!! 

While the quality is on par with the other posts in this thread, there's a lag on the delivery times due to them bein made in Enzed!!!!!


----------



## Mizu Kuma (Apr 13, 2014)

I agree with Manic about coffee!!!!!

There's a few things that us down under dwellers do good, like coffe, wine, beer, cheese, and while this might ruffle some eagle feathers, we have the best Bacon hands down!!!!!

However, we suck at customer service, transport, and makin cars to name a couple!!!!! 

Worst country for a good coffee has to go to Japan though!!!!!


----------



## cerebroside (Nov 6, 2012)

ridinbend said:


> So what's the recipe to a cup of real coffee? ????? I'll male some right now! !!!!


You might say that being a coffee snob is niche in North America, whereas it is mainstream in NZ/AUS.


----------



## Noreaster (Oct 7, 2012)

Mizu Kuma said:


> Worst country for a good coffee has to go to Japan though!!!!!



True. And that's why, for once, Starbucks world domination has done good. It is one of the few places where coffee tastes like coffee in that country. And they really toned down the sickly sweet flavored sauces Americans like so much.


----------



## Manicmouse (Apr 7, 2014)

Mizu Kuma said:


> He was offerin a niche post!!!!!
> 
> While the quality is on par with the other posts in this thread, there's a lag on the delivery times due to them bein made in Enzed!!!!!


Our internet service is so poor the latency can be measured in days!



cerebroside said:


> You might say that being a coffee snob is niche in North America, whereas it is mainstream in NZ/AUS.


We do love our espresso


----------



## Mizu Kuma (Apr 13, 2014)

Ohhh yeah, I forgot to note our internet/telco services in that post above as well!!!!!

Fuckin atrocious!!!!! 

I reckon it's cause all the Telco workers are either too busy drinkin coffees in work hours, and beers outside of that?????


----------



## chomps1211 (Mar 30, 2011)

*How's this for snobbish and elitist?? LoL*

First you find yourself a brand, variety, blend of company coffee you like. I use that to make my own custom blend. This consists of blending *3/4 Columbian* and *1/4 French Roast!*

Thoroughly mixed together and ground for a drip machine. Measure this out into your french press and add water that has been heated to just below the boiling point. 

This blend is for anyone who loves a really strong cup of coffee. Someone who loves strong coffee flavor, but hates the harsh and bitter qualities that you find in a straight cup of french roast. 

The Columbian itself is a good, flavorful coffee (...if a trifle mild.) The added 1/4 percentage of a strong French Roast provides for a filling in and rounding out of the full bodied richness and flavor of this coffee without bringing any of the bitterness that the darker roasts are known for. :dunno:

It has always been delicious brewed in an auto drip machine. But it is absolutely and simply Beautiful when brewed and poured from a French Press. 

I discovered this blend 30+ years ago living in SoCal! Been loving it ever since.
Cheers!


----------



## cerebroside (Nov 6, 2012)

French press? Maybe acceptable if you are camping or destitute.


----------



## ridinbend (Aug 2, 2012)

cerebroside said:


> French press? Maybe acceptable if you are camping or destitute.


What the flying fuck are you talking about? Are you seriously insinuating that drip coffee tastes better then french press? Your comment fits this stupid thread perfectly. Stop the inanity


----------



## Manicmouse (Apr 7, 2014)

ridinbend said:


> What the flying fuck are you talking about? Are you seriously insinuating that drip coffee tastes better then french press? Your comment fits this stupid thread perfectly. Stop the inanity


Espresso takes a lot of skill to make well which is why most espresso around the world tastes like shit (16 yo Starbucks workers etc etc).

French press is no way better than espresso, you just need to try good coffee for once.


----------



## ridinbend (Aug 2, 2012)

Manicmouse said:


> Espresso takes a lot of skill to make well which is why most espresso around the world tastes like shit (16 yo Starbucks workers etc etc).
> 
> French press is no way better than espresso, you just need to try good coffee for once.


Oh I know how good espresso is. I make my own daily. My favorite way to drink coffee, well that and well prepared pour over.

If the comment was about espresso only I will rescind, but in no way is standard drip better than french press. Especially when it's ground properly.


----------



## cerebroside (Nov 6, 2012)

ridinbend said:


> Oh I know how good espresso is. I make my own daily. My favorite way to drink coffee, well that and well prepared pour over.
> 
> If the comment was about espresso only I will rescind, but in no way is standard drip better than french press. Especially when it's ground properly.


Haha, I don't think I've ever seen drip in NZ. Maybe at McDonalds? Comment was about espresso, and pretty tongue in cheek.


----------



## chomps1211 (Mar 30, 2011)

WoW!! I sure as hell stepped in the Shit here with you "Outback" & "Kiwi" Muthah Fuckahs,.. over coffee!! Din't I???? 








WTH,..? I'm bored. I'll take a try at stirrin' the pot,……..

*...ESPRESSO SUCKS!!!!* :finger1:




_Well,.._ somebody here asked for insanity, didn't they? LoL!


----------



## ridinbend (Aug 2, 2012)

cerebroside said:


> Haha, I don't think I've ever seen drip in NZ. Maybe at McDonalds? Comment was about espresso, and pretty tongue in cheek.


Gotcha, there seems to be too many awful ways to make coffee in the states. Nobody seems to care about taking the time to make it taste good. I don't buy coffee drinks, I make it all myself. Can't stand not knowing if my coffee is going to taste good. I rescind my previous comment.


----------



## cerebroside (Nov 6, 2012)

chomps1211 said:


> ...
> *...ESPRESSO SUCKS!!!!* :finger1:...


Want an arguement, huh? Well I hear trad camber is 'superior in all ways' to RCR and CRC, which are 'crutches for bad technique'! :finger1:

_(Note: Post may not be completely serious. If symptoms persist, call your doctor.)_


----------



## chomps1211 (Mar 30, 2011)

*"…..Your Doctor!!"*


----------



## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

y'know what...
There's really good coffee in Vancouver. I was pretty surprised with 2 things: coffee and craft beer. Not bad.

Needless to say: espresso = the only way to go.


----------



## Steezus Christ (Jul 29, 2013)

Seeming this thread is going nowhere I wanna play too...

Nobody gives a fuck about boards made in America...


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## Mizu Kuma (Apr 13, 2014)

Steezus Christ said:


> Seeming this thread is going nowhere I wanna play too...
> 
> Nobody gives a fuck about boards made in America...


Unless they've got a top sheet made from recycled coffee beans!!!!!

And formed in a French Press!!!!!


----------



## chomps1211 (Mar 30, 2011)

*LoL I get it! EnZed? LoL*

OK,.. More questions. Maybe more "stir the pot." Certainly more insanity anyway ! 

So,.. Seriously You guys! What's with the whole Cannannada and New Zedlander's  and this "zed" instead of Z thing! What the hell _IS_ that??

How many of you _EVER_ went to the Zedoo to see the Zedebra's? Huh,..? How many?







…and still, I _really_ just don't care for Expresso!  :rofl4: (Now,..!! Don't choo just _really_ hate _that?_) 

:hairy:


----------



## cerebroside (Nov 6, 2012)

Someone tell Signal to do a board that can make a decent espresso for the next ETT episode.

Edit: ^^^^


----------



## Mizu Kuma (Apr 13, 2014)

chomps1211 said:


> How many of you _EVER_ went to the Zedoo to see the Zedebra's? Huh,..? How many?


We only go to see the Zedbras when we' visit an Aymericain Zeeooo!!!!! :happy:


----------



## ridinbend (Aug 2, 2012)

Mizu Kuma said:


> We only go to see the Zedbras when we' visit an Aymericain Zeeooo!!!!! :happy:


This is hilarious


----------



## chomps1211 (Mar 30, 2011)

Mizu Kuma said:


> We only go to see the Zedbras when we' visit an Aymericain Zeeooo!!!!! :happy:


Uh,.. I believe what you meant to say was,..

...when you visit a 'Murican Zuu!!! Get it rite oar knot attol 










 LoL


----------



## Mizu Kuma (Apr 13, 2014)

chomps1211 said:


> Uh,.. I believe what you meant to say was,..
> 
> ...when you visit a 'Murican Zuu!!! Get it rite oar knot attol
> 
> ...


I'd like to go for a holiday on Knot Attol!!!!! :embarrased1:


----------



## chomps1211 (Mar 30, 2011)

Mizu Kuma said:


> We only go to see the Zedbras when we' visit an Aymericain Zeeooo!!!!! :happy:





chomps1211 said:


> Uh,.. I believe what you meant to say was,..
> 
> ...when you visit a 'Murican Zuu!!! Get it rite oar knot attol
> LoL





Mizu Kuma said:


> I'd like to go for a holiday on Knot Attol!!!!! :embarrased1:


LoL
Sadly,..Here's one that's actually back on the original thread topic,.. "stop the Insanity!"
I used to be inf the Limo game some 11-12 years ago, and this last little back and forth reminded me of the time I had a car rented out by one of U.of M's College Football players and a few other team members.. I asked him where we were going and he said he had written the directions down for me.

He handed me a slip of paper which read,….

…tirn left on such and such street. ...make a rite at the lite! Etc. so on, etc. and so-on! 

This was coming from a man enrolled in, and supposedly taking and passing courses in,… College! * College???!!*

OH, well, I guess he could run like a MuthaFucker tho!  :thumbsup:



You know,… the other stuff we waz doin' was a lot more fun!! Lets go back to that!


----------



## Mizu Kuma (Apr 13, 2014)

:happy:

Ohhh, that's right!!!!!

We were talkin about coffee!!!!! :hairy:


----------



## chomps1211 (Mar 30, 2011)

Mizu Kuma said:


> :happy:
> 
> Ohhh, that's right!!!!!
> 
> We were talkin about coffee!!!!! :hairy:


Oh Yeah,..!! and how much *ESPRESSO SUCKS! * :finger1:





:rofl3: BWAHAHAHHAhhahahhahhahahahahhah! coughcoughhackysackhack-cough, Hahahhahhah!!!  :lol:


----------



## Manicmouse (Apr 7, 2014)

ridinbend said:


> Oh I know how good espresso is. I make my own daily. My favorite way to drink coffee, well that and well prepared pour over.
> 
> If the comment was about espresso only I will rescind, but in no way is standard drip better than french press. Especially when it's ground properly.


Great, I'll recall the coffee police :happy:



chomps1211 said:


> WoW!! I sure as hell stepped in the Shit here with you "Outback" & "Kiwi" Muthah Fuckahs,.. over coffee!! Din't I????
> 
> WTH,..? I'm bored. I'll take a try at stirrin' the pot,……..
> 
> *...ESPRESSO SUCKS!!!!* :finger1:


I would start slamming American beer but you're saved by a decent craft beer scene!



F1EA said:


> y'know what...
> There's really good coffee in Vancouver. I was pretty surprised with 2 things: coffee and craft beer. Not bad.


Vancouver is just awesome all round. Even your riots are awesome.



chomps1211 said:


> So,.. Seriously You guys! What's with the whole Cannannada and New Zedlander's  and this "zed" instead of Z thing! What the hell _IS_ that??


Yeah about that, it's called English and it comes from England :hairy:


----------



## neni (Dec 24, 2012)

chomps1211 said:


> Oh Yeah,..!! and how much *ESPRESSO SUCKS! * :finger1:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


:eyetwitch2: *gasps n swallows* 

:blowup:


Sacrilege!


----------



## chomps1211 (Mar 30, 2011)

neni said:


> :eyetwitch2: *gasps n swallows*
> 
> :blowup:
> 
> Sacrilege!


:lol: Honestly,..? I actually really don't care for espresso! It may just be, as others have stated here that we just don't do it right here in the good Ol' U. S. of 'Murica!  But every time I've tried it,..? It's been far too bitter and acidic for my taste. I can actually feel it stripping the enamel from my teeth! :rofl2:

…And as I mentioned earlier, I really do _love_ a good, strong, flavorful cup of coffee! I'm a coffee snob, or as some might put it,.. a coffee _effete_! :rofl4: But, I have converted more than a few zombie slave, Mr.Coffee brewing, muddy brown Swill drinkers to the delights of real coffee and a French press preparation.

These people were certain nothing was going to change their minds, but after they've had my custom coffee blend brewed & poured from my press!? They say they'll never go back.






So,.. Sorry! I guess I've interrupted the creative, argumentative flow of this over acted, exaggerated, personal affront and flame thread again, didn't I???

*Whoopsy!*  My bad! :embarrased1: So, where were we,..? Oh yes, neni calling me a "Heretic" I believe,….! Well, continue on girl,….!  




Espresso?? *Yuck!!!* Shit goes down like battery acid! :barf:



:hairy:


----------



## ShredLife (Feb 6, 2010)




----------



## neni (Dec 24, 2012)

chomps1211 said:


> :lol: Honestly,..? I actually really don't care for espresso! It may just be, as others have stated here that we just don't do it right here in the good Ol' U. S. of 'Murica!


Must be that. I actually never got anything other than battery acid or colored water in "'murica", no matter if I ordered espresso or coffee  (same goes for many other countries... CH has a rather bad coffee tradition as well... but we got Italy and France as neighbours).

A real itlian espresso is the essence of coffee taste! Aromatic, intense AND smooth. Not bitter at all! It's a tiny sip (3cl; 0.006gal or 1.05flOz or 0.05pt or 6 teaspoons or whatever weird measure U use  ) of manna.


----------



## chomps1211 (Mar 30, 2011)

…are they making it with a "dark roasted" bean or a lighter one. Because all the espresso I've ever tasted tastes like it was started with french roast coffee or something similarly dark!. And outside of the 3 to 1 ratio in "My" personal blend, of columbian to french? I cant stomach that french roast stuff. Bitter, harsh, acidic! Yuck! 

Now, that thing that shred posted,..? That looks like some sort of camping percolator. I will never use a percolator for making coffee. It just boils and re-boils the water, even after it's become saturated with coffee. So you actually wind up boiling and re-boiling _coffee_. 

Which is one of the _worst_ things you can do to coffee! I won't even re-heat good coffee in the microwave. It destroys the flavor! Now, bad, or cheap coffee? Re-heating it doesn't seem to change much of anything! :shrug:


----------



## ridinbend (Aug 2, 2012)

Espresso beans are roasted more than any other bean. They're always a dark bean.


----------



## ridinbend (Aug 2, 2012)

ShredLife said:


>


I love mine. Niche coffee maker?

This thread is amazing.


----------



## cerebroside (Nov 6, 2012)

Better.

Edit: Not going to comment on roasts...


----------



## chomps1211 (Mar 30, 2011)

ridinbend said:


> Espresso beans are roasted more than any other bean. They're always a dark bean.


See,..!! Just goes to show what I know! :facepalm1: I thought that espresso was a "_way_" of making coffee! I didn't know it _was_ a Type of coffee! Come to think of it tho,.. I have enjoyed chocolate covered espresso beans! Now those I like!!! 

Seriously tho, the picture! That's _not_ a percolator?? How's it work! I mean in a pinch, without my press? I know I can make essentially the same coffee "Cowboy" style! Just let the grounds sink, and be careful how it's poured. Although _that's_ coffee that's been steeped longer than I usually like! :dunno:


----------



## cerebroside (Nov 6, 2012)

chomps1211 said:


> See,..!! Just goes to show what I know! :facepalm1: I thought that espresso was a "_way_" of making coffee! I didn't know it _was_ a Type of coffee! Come to think of it tho,.. I have enjoyed chocolate covered espresso beans! Now those I like!!!
> 
> Seriously tho, the picture! That's _not_ a percolator?? How's it work! I mean in a pinch, without my press? I know I can make essentially the same coffee "Cowboy" style! Just let the grounds sink, and be careful how it's poured. Although _that's_ coffee that's been steeped longer than I usually like! :dunno:


Shredlifes photo is of a moka pot. Basically you put water in the bottom, and coffee grounds in the middle. When heated the water is pushed through the grounds into the top, where it can be poured.
Can't say I've ever managed to make something worth drinking with one.


----------



## ridinbend (Aug 2, 2012)

It boils up through the grinds and makes crazy dark strong coffee.

I should rephrase my statement, generally espresso beans are dark roast and typically spend the most time in the bean roaster. I have seen lighter espresso roasts, but it's not how the are traditionally roasted.



cerebroside said:


> Shredlifes photo is of a moka pot. Basically you put water in the bottom, and coffee grounds in the middle. When heated the water is pushed through the grounds into the top, where it can be poured.
> Can't say I've ever managed to make something worth drinking with one.


It's definitely camping coffee. My Italian in-laws use it all the time though.


----------



## cerebroside (Nov 6, 2012)

Try one of these for camping. I've got one and it's really nice. Only does a single shot at a time though, so it doesn't get used as much as it otherwise would.


----------



## neni (Dec 24, 2012)

cerebroside said:


> Can't say I've ever managed to make something worth drinking with one.


Don't overheat it (makes for bitter taste), take it off the heat as soon as the water begins to boil. Don't overfill with roast if you got the big size mokka pot (too strong/thick). Most important: it'll only produce good output if filled with good input. You should get a decent (not great) strong coffee with it.


----------



## Manicmouse (Apr 7, 2014)

chomps1211 said:


> stuff


It's quite simple Chomps, poorly made espresso tastes burnt and/or bitter. Seems to me you've just never had a decent coffee in your life :deadhorse:


----------



## chomps1211 (Mar 30, 2011)

Manicmouse said:


> It's quite simple Chomps, poorly made espresso tastes burnt and/or bitter. Seems to me you've just never had a decent coffee in your life :deadhorse:


lol well that presumes you are correct in that espresso, is the only decent coffee. i am not willing to concede that point. :dry: i am however, willing to consider the possibility that i have never had a decent cup of espresso. 


:hairy:


----------



## cerebroside (Nov 6, 2012)

neni said:


> Don't overheat it (makes for bitter taste), take it off the heat as soon as the water begins to boil. Don't overfill with roast if you got the big size mokka pot (too strong/thick). Most important: it'll only produce good output if filled with good input. You should get a decent (not great) strong coffee with it.


Yeah, I've tried a bunch of times. I think the problem is that I can't get it as strong as I want it without making it taste terrible.
Should just buy a La Pavoni like the one I posted and get beans delivered, but good espresso machines make snowboards look cheap (that one is ~$1500 MSRP). Plus I would need a grinder.


----------



## Manicmouse (Apr 7, 2014)

chomps1211 said:


> lol well that presumes you are correct in that espresso, is the only decent coffee. i am not willing to concede that point. :dry: i am however, willing to consider the possibility that i have never had a decent cup of espresso.
> 
> 
> :hairy:


"Do you agree to disagree?"
"No!!!"


----------



## chomps1211 (Mar 30, 2011)

Manicmouse said:


> "Do you agree to disagree?"
> "No!!!"


I uhhhmmn,.. I, uhh,… Uh, well Uhm er, I think,.. I disagree that we are agreeing? :blink:
:shrug: 


:WTF: :huh:


----------



## ridinbend (Aug 2, 2012)

cerebroside said:


> Yeah, I've tried a bunch of times. I think the problem is that I can't get it as strong as I want it without making it taste terrible.
> Should just buy a La Pavoni like the one I posted and get beans delivered, but good espresso machines make snowboards look cheap (that one is ~$1500 MSRP). Plus I would need a grinder.


Here is your $569 grinder. What a bargain.


----------



## cerebroside (Nov 6, 2012)

ridinbend said:


> Here is your $569 grinder. What a bargain.












No, I think you want this $3200 Mazzer Mini E. A bargain at only $1940!


----------



## StAntonRider (Dec 15, 2014)

Manicmouse said:


> It's quite simple Chomps, poorly made espresso tastes burnt and/or bitter. Seems to me you've just never had a decent coffee in your life :deadhorse:


Coolest emoji I have ever seen.


----------



## StAntonRider (Dec 15, 2014)

Lol also get this 199000 television. Check out the Amazon reviews for it scroll down to the bottom. They are absolutely fuckin hilarious. 

http://www.amazon.com/Samsung-UN105S9-Curved-105-Inch-Ultra/dp/B00L403O8U


----------



## StAntonRider (Dec 15, 2014)

Oops 119999. But is it that much of a difference


----------



## chomps1211 (Mar 30, 2011)

:deadhorse:


StAntonRider said:


> Coolest emoji I have ever seen.


…pretty sure that's how they harvest espresso beans! :hairy:


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## cerebroside (Nov 6, 2012)

Big TVs are ridiculous. You can get a bigger projector setup than that for like $1k.


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## Steezus Christ (Jul 29, 2013)

Yea but projectors aren't as good a quality IMO unless you're in a completely dark room


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## cerebroside (Nov 6, 2012)

Steezus Christ said:


> Yea but projectors aren't as good a quality IMO unless you're in a completely dark room


Just stop watching daytime TV and save $119,000.


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## Mizu Kuma (Apr 13, 2014)

StAntonRider said:


> Lol also get this 199000 television. Check out the Amazon reviews for it scroll down to the bottom. They are absolutely fuckin hilarious.
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/Samsung-UN105S9-Curved-105-Inch-Ultra/dp/B00L403O8U


What's the go with the stupid curved screens?????

They used to be curved (convex) and ya couldn't see the action if ya were sittin to the sides!!!!!

So now, they make a concave that does the same fuckin thing????? 

And $120K for a TV????? That's just fucked up!!!!!


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## Mizu Kuma (Apr 13, 2014)

Hahahaaaaa, just read the reviews then!!!!!


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## GraydonShreds (Dec 9, 2014)

Anyone in Ontario or Quebec, would you consider Empire to be a "core" shop, it's the only local place I can buy things, also buying online from a core shop should be considered ok I find


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## ridinbend (Aug 2, 2012)

GraydonShreds said:


> Anyone in Ontario or Quebec, would you consider Empire to be a "core" shop, it's the only local place I can buy things, also buying online from a core shop should be considered ok I find


Are you trying to take this thread back to the main topic? This is a coffee thread now!


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## GraydonShreds (Dec 9, 2014)

Didnt read the last bit lol 
Not the biggest coffee fan lol


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## spino (Jan 8, 2013)

chomps1211 said:


> lol well that presumes you are correct in that espresso, is the only decent coffee. i am not willing to concede that point. :dry: i am however, willing to consider the possibility that *i have never had a decent cup of espresso*.
> 
> 
> :hairy:


your insane claim that espresso is not the best coffee strongly suggests this. :moon:

by the way: here in italy the typical espresso is made with arabica coffee.
but in the best bars you can usually find as many as 6-7 different blends, usually coming from costa rica, kenya, colombia, brazil (my favourite), each with its unique taste and flavour.

oh, and i really hope all of you "coffee experts" are actually drinking it without sugar! :hairy:


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## cerebroside (Nov 6, 2012)

spino said:


> your insane claim that espresso is not the best coffee strongly suggests this. :moon:
> 
> by the way: here in italy the typical espresso is made with arabica coffee.
> but in the best bars you can usually find as many as 6-7 different blends, usually coming from costa rica, kenya, colombia, brazil (my favourite), each with its unique taste and flavour.
> ...


I wouldn't claim to be an expert, but I know what I like (strong flat white). And I reserve the right to taste it before I decide if it needs sugar or not.


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## chomps1211 (Mar 30, 2011)

_This_ coffee expert,..? He drinks his with cream _no sugar_. I would say if you need to taste it before deciding whether it needs sugar or not? You're not consistantly getting a "good" cup either!  lol

I definitely don't care for sugar in my coffee. I don't like iced coffee either, I hate coffee when it's cold. Oddly enough tho,.. I do like coffee ice cream! :dunno:  It makes no sense, I know! I'll scarf down Ben & Jerry's Buzz Buzz coffee ice cream by the pint, But if my un-sweetened, cup of coffee with cream goes cold, room temp? Gaack!! Gag me! :barf:

Maybe one day I'll give espresso another try. Until then,.. My idea of good coffee is going to remain, my strong, flavorful, custom blend, steeped in my french press, with 1/2 & 1/2, or better, heavy cream!  Yum!!


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## cerebroside (Nov 6, 2012)

chomps1211 said:


> ... I would say if you need to taste it before deciding whether it needs sugar or not? You're not consistantly getting a "good" cup either!  lol
> ...


No doubt, hence all the complaining. :happy:


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## neni (Dec 24, 2012)

chomps1211 said:


> _This_ coffee expert,..? He drinks his with cream _no _


_

Awwww yuck! Milk or cream in a coffee or espresso? Bääh!
 _


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## Manicmouse (Apr 7, 2014)

cerebroside said:


> I wouldn't claim to be an expert, but I know what I like (strong flat white). And I reserve the right to taste it before I decide if it needs sugar or not.


So true, the only café in the suburb I live in consistently makes the most bitter coffees so I either have to dump half a cup of sugar in it or order a hot chocolate :facepalm3:


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## chomps1211 (Mar 30, 2011)

neni said:


> Awwww yuck! Milk or cream in a coffee or espresso? Bääh!


x2 Yuck! *Never* milk!!! Cream or half n half or nada! Mooooooo.


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## spino (Jan 8, 2013)

cerebroside said:


> I wouldn't claim to be an expert, but I know what I like (strong flat white). And I reserve the right to taste it before I decide if it needs sugar or not.


if it needs sugar then it is definitely not a good coffee!


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## spino (Jan 8, 2013)

chomps1211 said:


> _This_ coffee expert,..? He drinks his with cream _no sugar_. I would say if you need to taste it before deciding whether it needs sugar or not? You're not consistantly getting a "good" cup either!  lol
> 
> I definitely don't care for sugar in my coffee. I don't like iced coffee either, I hate coffee when it's cold. Oddly enough tho,.. I do like coffee ice cream! :dunno:  It makes no sense, I know! I'll scarf down Ben & Jerry's Buzz Buzz coffee ice cream by the pint, But if my un-sweetened, cup of coffee with cream goes cold, room temp? Gaack!! Gag me! :barf:
> 
> Maybe one day I'll give espresso another try. Until then,.. My idea of good coffee is going to remain, my strong, flavorful, custom blend, steeped in my french press, with 1/2 & 1/2, or better, heavy cream!  Yum!!


honestly, i would like to taste your recipe.
i recently started to appreciate a good american coffee.
only problem is that here it is not very common, so you usually get a mug of boiled water with a couple of spoons of soluble crap like nescafé or the like 

this is what i got yesterday after lunch:










try something like this, NO cream NO sugar, and you will know :hairy:


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## f00bar (Mar 6, 2014)

Here's why the shops around here continue to lose respect with me.

there's a 3 store skate/snowboard chain in the area with a store at the mall. Needing a sanity recovering from being in Forever 21 and Express for way to long I duck in there.

They have a lib tech banana blaster combo with some missions my son would love, regular 499, knocked down to 350. So I ask how much just for the board as he has the same mission bindings already.

So I can see he pauses to do some math in his head. and comes back, the MSRP on the board is $350, the bindings are $150. You can have the board for about $270.

I've looked quite a bit at this board and know MSRP is 299, I actually bought my sons missions from them last year for $75.

To be fair, the $270 is a good price, cheaper than anywhere online, but about the same when I add tax. My issue is he had to inflate the MSRP to justify his 'sale' price being a deal when in reality it is pretty much just MSRP. At least online they aren't lying to your face.

I was really just price checking as I won't be buying this season anyway, just kinda ticked me off.


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## goofymeat (Nov 25, 2014)

*mmmm*

I'm all about ethiopian fine grind french press super dark fast press with a shot of HEAVY WHIPPING CREAM. Half and half is a scam. Why the fuck would i water down my cream with milk!. Sugar in coffee...... bullshit


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