# Thoughts/questions about highback angles and forward lean



## foobaz (Jan 28, 2015)

Hi

I'm setting up my gear for the first days of the season (hopefully this weekend) and I guess I need some advice.

First off, I want to try some forward lean. I definitely need some for the frontside carves and I'd like to go with the middle setting to start with. This is already a smaller angle than on the boot, so I'm thinking that will change the performance of the boot+binding combo in other ways, than just the obvious one... It prevents the heel of the boot from sitting in the deepest part of the binding, right ? That sounds like a bad thing. Is it ?

The other thing is the highback angles. I ride with a duck stance, so I'm supposed to try and line up the highbacks with the edge of the board. And the reasoning behind this seems sound, but again, this puts the boot in an awkward position. One side of the highback will always exert more pressure on the boot this way, being closer to the front of the binding, than the other... In fact, there will be some pressure on one side as soon, as I strap in. That sounds like a bad thing, right ?

I intend to do both forward lean and the angles, but I'd like to understand fully what the consequences will be. Maybe I'm doing something wrong, I don't know.

Thoughts ?


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## Mystery2many (Aug 14, 2013)

What bindings are you riding? If it has an asymmetrical high back its not necessary to rotate them and might actually cause pressure points. I rotated the highbacks on my Genesis and it felt good but it didn't feel good on my holograms. 

Also forward lean helps heel side carves and takes up sloop if its a binding with zero forward lean to start with. Some bindings have stock forward lean just like some boots do. 

I would just play with it a little at a time and see how you like it.


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## neni (Dec 24, 2012)

The idea of the rotated highbacks comes cos when you put pressure on the hind edge it's a perpendicular shift of weight to the edge, you won't shift the weight in the angled direction your bindings have (would be a weird impossible movement with duck anyway). So if you don't rotate them, your main point of pressure would be at the outer sides of the highbacks. If you rotate them to be bit - not totall - aligned with the edge, you have a less pointed but more distribured weight impact on the highback.

I honestly didn't get your line of thought with the forward lean... forward lean is nice to get more leverage on heelside carves, not frontside. If you want more leverage on frontside, try to shift the bindings to the front edge (and then compensate the loss of leverage on the heelside edge with bit of forward lean)


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## foobaz (Jan 28, 2015)

Mystery2many said:


> What bindings are you riding?


Burton Genesis with Burton Ion.



Mystery2many said:


> If it has an asymmetrical high back its not necessary to rotate them and might actually cause pressure points. I rotated the highbacks on my Genesis and it felt good but it didn't feel good on my holograms.


But it's still true about the higher pressure on the outside of your boots, right ? When doing a heelside carve, the left side of your left boot and the right side of your right boot are pressured before the opposite sides. The pressure on the highback is uneven. Aren't there any negative side-effects to that ?



Mystery2many said:


> Also forward lean helps heel side carves and takes up sloop if its a binding with zero forward lean to start with.


Sloop ?;]



Mystery2many said:


> Some bindings have stock forward lean just like some boots do.


Yeah, the built-in forward lean is minimal. I want MOAR.



Mystery2many said:


> I would just play with it a little at a time and see how you like it


Yeah, will do.


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## foobaz (Jan 28, 2015)

neni said:


> The idea of the rotated highbacks comes cos when you put pressure on the hind edge it's a perpendicular shift of weight to the edge, you won't shift the weight in the angled direction your bindings have (would be a weird impossible movement with duck anyway).


This is totally understandable and convincing.



neni said:


> So if you don't rotate them, your main point of pressure would be at the outer sides of the highbacks. If you rotate them to be bit - not totall - aligned with the edge, you have a less pointed but more distribured weight impact on the highback.


Well, if you don't rotate them, the pressure on the outside will actually be smaller, than with the rotation.

With the highback parallel to the edge you're pressuring the outsides of the highback the moment you strap in.

That's what makes me wonder about the possible downsides.



neni said:


> I honestly didn't get your line of thought with the forward lean... forward lean is nice to get more leverage on heelside carves, not frontside. If you want more leverage on frontside, try to shift the bindings to the front edge (and then compensate the loss of leverage on the heelside edge with bit of forward lean)


Err, backside, not frontside, sorry.


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## foobaz (Jan 28, 2015)

I'm not sure I'm getting my point across with the highback angles. What I mean is that the highback is rotated, but the boot is still at the same angle as the entire binding (not the highback). So instead of having even contact between the boot and the highback along their full height, we have more contact (and hence higher pressure) the higher and the more to the outside we go. That's what sounds to me like a problem.


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## Mizu Kuma (Apr 13, 2014)

What you've done is spot on!!!!!

Once you ride, the forces that you'll put onto the binding will seat your boot into it!!!!!

There's actually a lot of flex to both your binding and boot!!!!!


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## chomps1211 (Mar 30, 2011)

It's not really all that difficult. If you leave the highbacks @ their straight 90° orientation to the bindings and ride anything but 0°/0°? When you try to engage your heel side edge, you aren't applying pressure directly to the highback along that edge. 

With some amount of forward lean dialed in, you can now pressure that edge by straightening your legs, which levers your highback into engaging that edge. If the backs aren't rotated, that leverage is being directed _across_ your board at an oblique angle. Even though the highback is seated evenly up against the back of the boot. Regardless of how evenly distributed the contact, this angled configuration is less direct leverage. It's less effecient, less responsive! However,.. it isn't impossible to ride or engage the edge like that either. 

I suppose some people could have a problem feeling some pressure points along the outside of the leg/calf. I never have. 

I rode my entire first season and part of the next before I read about rotating the highbacks parallel to the edge. And that was on a wide board with only size 10.5 boots. Which is even less ideal if you want to get good heelside edge response. I managed anyway. 

As has been suggested already. Just play around with the settings until you find the configuration you like best. It will be pretty apparent to you if you've gone "too far" one way or the other with the fwd lean or highback rotation.


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## neni (Dec 24, 2012)

foobaz said:


> With the highback parallel to the edge you're pressuring the outsides of the highback the moment you strap in.


Why do you think this? I think that you're thinking this is causing your confusion .
Hmmm, it's not easy to explain in words for me... easiest is if you try and observe the movement/mechanics: stand up and get a position like if you're on the board, knees bent. Now simulate how you'd shift your weight to the heel edge and monitor closely the movement of your calves. They won't move backwards exactly in the direction/angle which your feet have (i.e. direction/angle of a non rotated highback). They woud only move that way if you stand up - but you don't want to ride with straight legs. If you shift your weight to heel edge with _bent_ knees you'll see that it's not exactly the most hind part of the calves but rather a bit outer part which moves to the edge.


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## pescadero (Feb 5, 2014)

chomps1211 said:


> It's not really all that difficult. If you leave the highbacks @ their straight 90° orientation to the bindings and ride anything but 0°/0°? When you try to engage your heel side edge, you aren't applying pressure directly to the highback along that edge.


I hate to be the nerdy engineer, but the physics on this just don't work.

The binding base plate, as well as the board it is attached to is a relatively rigid system. Because of the coupling, any force will directly follow the direction it is applied.

If you lean directly toward your heel side edge - the pressure will be applied perpendicular to that edge, regardless of highback rotation (or forward lean or even existence of a highback)...

ALL that highback rotation does is provide for a potentially wider contact point for your calf against the highback. 

It's purely a comfort thing.


I tend to rotate my highbacks for comfort, but then I ride what seem to be odd angles these days: +25/+15


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## neni (Dec 24, 2012)

pescadero said:


> I
> 
> ALL that highback rotation does is provide for a potentially wider contact point for your calf against the highback.
> 
> It's purely a comfort thing.


^ This. Not more but also not less. Depending on the angle and highback design, the point where the calve hits the highback can be very narrow. With my old 30° front angle, a non rotated highback was very uncomfy


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## foobaz (Jan 28, 2015)

neni said:


> foobaz said:
> 
> 
> > With the highback parallel to the edge you're pressuring the outsides of the highback the moment you strap in.
> ...


You were right, it was not an issue 

However, I have a new question regarding forward lean. What happens is the forward lean on the binding exceeds that on the boot ? Will it not sit all the way in the binding (depth-wise) ? That sounds like a problem... I was hoping I could max out the forward lean, having tried it in the middle setting and liking it.


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## freshy (Nov 18, 2009)

foobaz said:


> neni said:
> 
> 
> > foobaz said:
> ...


Your really over thinking this. Unless your rocking the Damien Sanders. hard ski boot style your boot will simply flex and follow the contours of the highback. 

Why don't you just try it instead of trying to understand the science behind it and worrying about any hypothetical problems. 

Really it's all about comfort vs performance. I like to be able to stand with my knees straight, I do notice more performance when I got the leans on but I don't like being stuck in a knees bent position all day. Same with the angled highback, I tried rotating but I found it super uncomfortable plus I have no problem with them in the stock position so that's where I always leave them now.


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## foobaz (Jan 28, 2015)

Ok, so I tried max forward lean yesterday (that's F6 on Burton Genesis). The performance improvement is certainly there an I really like it, but it really took a toll on my calf muscles. I'll be taking it down a notch next time, see how that works.


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