# steep hill: carving vs. sliding



## legallyillegal

Nothing wrong with sliding a bit to maintain control.


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## wrathfuldeity

'carving' in uneven terrains, and very steep blacks diamonds

If you mean carving in chopped up snow...depending on the wetness/heaviness of the snow it can be difficult and it helps to have a relatively stiff board to blast through the mashed potato chop in the pnw. If you mean uneven terain...some terrain, i.e. moguls are impossible, pillows you just sort of blast and rollers would be more of absorbtion with knees. Steep blacks with fresh deep pow are the nutz. Anyway its probably just getting used to speed, terrain reading skills and having confidence in your skills and trusting your board....sounds like you just need more time and skills and a good freeride board is the ticket. However it is important to stay in control and not fly recklessly down the hill.


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## max_tm

I honestly don't see what the issue with sliding is in a free-ride scenario in steeps with variable terrain etc. If you slide well with even pressure it can be a very fluid and nice turn all the same! (although it won't ever feel as good as a carve)


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## Guest

Thank you all very much for your input, legallyillegal, Snowolf, wrathfuldeity, max_tm. I am very happy with the answer you guys provided.


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## Grizz

yyipu said:


> Also it seems that while i was 'carving' down blacks and some blues, my speed would build up too rapidly and i'd have to make a few skids to slow down.
> 
> If you guys can share with your personal experiences or some tips it would be greatly appreciated, thanks.


In a true carve you won't be gaining any speed control from skidding or pivoting the board. So when you are carving and want to keep your speed at a comfortable level focus on the shape (like a C not a J)and the number of turns (more=slower) you are making.


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## Grizz

I try to think of snowboarding movements not so much as right/wrong or good/bad but efficient/less efficient for a desired outcome.


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## Guest

It's funny because I was going to ask pretty much this same question.
I find myself at the top of a steep hill and I watch others just sort of straight line it down with no problem at all but as soon as I start to go, I find it's too steep for me to really maintain control and end up skidding down the top part until it begins to level off a bit and I can finally start to carve.

My question was going to be, what can I do to improve on this? I have yet to be able to carve down steeper hills/maintain speed because as soon as I start too, I kinda get nervous and skid to slow myself down.
(I hope I'm understanding the term skid right where it's just maintaining one edge and then the other kinddd of like you would if you wanted to just stop but instead keep going on the opposite edge.

I also justt am now starting to get better at carving in general, always lead with the front foot right?


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## Guest

Snowolf said:


> Hi ekrina, that is a very common question!


Wow, thanks a lot for that explanation! After reading it, I realized that I had the definitions of carving and the dynamic skidding turns kind of muddled...I didn't know there was a difference! And what you just explained is exactly what I am tryingg to work on  ...the going down a hill straighter, faster and in a more fluid motion.

I will definitely be working on that.

Also, I have always wondered this and some people answer me differently...when turning am I supposed to have my body weight toward the front of my board and on my front foot or back? In other words, what foot is supposed to be doing more work? I tend to control the board with the back foot and lean back more. Is this incorrect?


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## Guest

sounds like you could be 'ruddering' and thats a no-no. i am no instructor but i would advise trying to stay balanced and initiating your turn with ur front foot.


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## baldylox

ekrina said:


> Wow, thanks a lot for that explanation! After reading it, I realized that I had the definitions of carving and the dynamic skidding turns kind of muddled...I didn't know there was a difference! And what you just explained is exactly what I am tryingg to work on  ...the going down a hill straighter, faster and in a more fluid motion.
> 
> I will definitely be working on that.
> 
> Also, I have always wondered this and some people answer me differently...when turning am I supposed to have my body weight toward the front of my board and on my front foot or back? In other words, what foot is supposed to be doing more work? I tend to control the board with the back foot and lean back more. Is this incorrect?


Ideally you should be in the middle. It may feel like you are leaning slightly forward. If you lean back as many beginners do because they are afraid to lean downhill, you will not be able to properly edge in and initiate a turn.


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## Guest

weight forward and pressure are two different things and are often used interchangably and are confused with one another..

I like to use the term "pressure" as opposed to weight.

We flex, extend, amd rotate when snowboarding, and we use edge angle, pressure distribution, longitudinal flex, and torsional flex to make the board do what we want it to do.. Movement equals performance.
Think Pressure not weight.... forward that is..


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## Grizz

Snowolf said:


> Really watch leaning back because, as you now know, the turn starts at the front. Well, if all your weight is in the back, it`s like a pickup truck with all the weight loaded at the tail gate and the steering axle is up off the ground. You have zero control. By keeping the front of the board loaded, you have really good control response.


It's cool to see the different ways people have to describe the same situation. This was a new one for me.

To cover the same issue, I talk about why a FWD car handles slippery roads better than a RWD car.

Are guys preprogramed to relate everything back to motors?


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## baldylox

Eh....I relate the different carving styles to digital and analog.


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## Grizz

Sounds interesting, how do they correlate? I know almost nothing of digital and analog. Digital gets broken down into 0 and 1 right?


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## baldylox

Grizz said:


> Sounds interesting, how do they correlate? I know almost nothing of digital and analog. Digital gets broken down into 0 and 1 right?


In digital, a signal is broken down into 0s and 1s so every thing has a value. Either on or off. Which is similar to skidded turns or the way you might navigate a mogul field. 

When I think of analog, I am thinking of the sine wave you might see on an oscillator. Looks just like the path of a perfect carve.


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## Guest

cifex said:


> In digital, a signal is broken down into 0s and 1s so every thing has a value. Either on or off. Which is similar to skidded turns or the way you might navigate a mogul field.
> 
> When I think of analog, I am thinking of the sine wave you might see on an oscillator. Looks just like the path of a perfect carve.



In other words:










The top graph is a sine wave - perfect oscillation from one turn to the other. This is how your turns should look when you can link them together by twisting the board from toe to heel side.

The bottom graph is digital - no rhythm or fluidity between turns. Just a start and stop at various points at various lengths. This is what happens when terrain is uneven or too steep or conditions are not conducive to creating a perfect sine wave.


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## baldylox

Snowolf said:


> Something tells me Cifex is in I.T. or another computer related field....


Pffftt!


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## Guest

Snowolf said:


> My theory is that we tend to make analogies based on other things in life that we do a lot. For me, I drive a truck so I naturally will make analogies related to driving.


agreed. one of the advantages of driving analogies - especially when teaching adults - is that most students will be able to relate having driven a car themselves.

alasdair


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## Guest

Grizz said:


> I try to think of snowboarding movements not so much as right/wrong or good/bad but efficient/less efficient for a desired outcome.



Yea Grizz!! this is the shit mate.. There are lots of ways to skin a cat, there are just better and more physically efficient ways to acheive that goal.

Great point and we see it all day on the hill when instructing... thanks GRizz


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## Guest

I use the analogy of riding a bicycle and that steering movements start from the front wheel not the rear wheel...you would not steer a bike from the rear wheel would you?? it seems to work well, and helps when we imagine riding that bike (snowboard) down a single track trail.. this teaches people to look where they want to go, and this helps with alignment issues and spatially orienting noobs when they are getting comfy just sliding on the snow withe a stick strapped to their feet.

"Teaching should be such that what is offered should be perceived as valuable gift, not as hard duty"
A. einstein

The more real world analogies we can use to tap into students learning pathways, the more succesful you will be as an instructor, and all your studenst will have more success and those ahh haa moments..


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## Guest

haha, thank you everyone for these awesome analogies! i didn't know one could come up with so many ways to describe the motion.
they actually really helped me visualize what i am supposed to be doing.
and im going snowboarding this weekend, so i'm gonna tryy and put all this advice to use!

thanks again


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## Guest

oneplankawanka, the bike is a great analogy for the importance of not leaning back because you can give people the mental imagery of trying to steer a bike while doing a wheelie.

alasdair


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## baldylox

:thumbsdown: bike analogy is no good. bicycle uses counter-steering.


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## Guest

^ care to expand?

alasdair


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## Guest

cifex said:


> :thumbsdown: bike analogy is no good. bicycle uses counter-steering.


I would argue at the apex of the turn yes, but not during turn initiation...I have seen it work over and over. I will continue to use it because it works


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## baldylox

oneplankawanka said:


> I would argue at the apex of the turn yes, but not during turn initiation...I have seen it work over and over. I will continue to use it because it works


Counter-steering occurs ONLY during turn initiation. When you go to make a left turn on a bicycle going more than 4 or 5 mph, you push the left side of the handlebar out...this momentarily turns the wheel to the right and cause the bike to sort of collapse into a lean for a left turn. Similar to the front wheel sort of tripping over itself.


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## Guest

cifex said:


> When you go to make a left turn on a bicycle going more than 4 or 5 mph, you push the left side of the handlebar out...this momentarily turns the wheel to the right...


this makes no sense to me at all. when i want to turn left on a bike, i do not turn the wheel to the right. i turn it to the left (left side in).

i agree with oneplankawanka - the bike analogy is, in this context, a simple one which works well.

alasdair


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## Guest

I suppose technically you are correct...most of my new students are not going fast enough when initiating to make counter steering movements efficent or necessary. Im a high speed turn on a bike then yes, counter steering would be the most appropriate techniwque, but not a snowboard. I am trying to get across to my students how important the leading foot is.. as opposed to the rear foot. LETS HERE SOME MORE FEEDBACK ??


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## baldylox

That's what I am saying. The analogy doesn't hold up because on a bike you counter-steer, but not on a snowboard.


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## baldylox

alasdairm said:


> this makes no sense to me at all. when i want to turn left on a bike, i do not turn the wheel to the right. i turn it to the left (left side in).
> 
> i agree with oneplankawanka - the bike analogy is, in this context, a simple one which works well.
> 
> alasdair


It's weird to get it at first, but once you understand it, you'll realize that you already knew. You just don't know that you know.


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## Guest

i think you are overthinking a simple concept. oneplanka... and i are talking about analogies which help beginners understand the importance of front foot steering. on a bicycle you steer with the front wheel and the analogy, in this context, holds up perfectly well. the counter-steering issue is irrelevant.

alasdair


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## Grizz

I can see both sides but factor in the speed, we were talking about a beginner turn under about 5kmh. 

The biker would not be able to counter steer at 5kmh. They haven't built up enough momentum for centripetal force to keep them upright when they tip the bike over. If the center of mass has no offset to the tires you will be steering in to a turn not counter steering.

Under 5kmh a bike steers like a tricycle or a snowboard. Once the bike is up to cruising speed, I can see how a little counter steer at initation and a lot of CM offset will be the major turning components.

CIFEX am I right in thinking that counter steer is just a twitch or flick right before leaning the bike over? Because once the bike is tipped over then you will be steering in the direction of the turn.


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## Guest

I raced mountain bikes for a few years and never did I initiate any turn with counter steering. Counter steering is used when the rear wheel(s) slip. I initiate a left turn on a bicycle by turning the bar to the left and if my rear wheel slips, I then counter steer to the right to keep the bike headed in the intended direction of travel.. We use counter steering the same way whether it be two of four wheels... Counter steering does not translate well when comparing the performance characteristics of a snowoboard vs. a bicycle or motor bike. I even conceptualize using counter steering on a bike to initiate a turn... anymore thoughts???


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## baldylox

Grizz said:


> CIFEX am I right in thinking that counter steer is just a twitch or flick right before leaning the bike over? Because once the bike is tipped over then you will be steering in the direction of the turn.


 Yes. When you flick the handlebar opposite the direction you want to go, the momentum of the frame keeps pushing forward but the traction of the tire causes it to "trip" and fall into the turn.


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## baldylox

oneplankawanka said:


> I raced mountain bikes for a few years and never did I initiate any turn with counter steering. Counter steering is used when the rear wheel(s) slip. I initiate a left turn on a bicycle by turning the bar to the left and if my rear wheel slips, I then counter steer to the right to keep the bike headed in the intended direction of travel.. We use counter steering the same way whether it be two of four wheels... Counter steering does not translate well when comparing the performance characteristics of a snowoboard vs. a bicycle or motor bike. I even conceptualize using counter steering on a bike to initiate a turn... anymore thoughts???


You are confusing countersteering with another concept. I do know what you're referring to. (when a car is in a drift and you steer into the direction that it is sliding to maintain control). I'm not sure what that is called but the concept I am talking about only occurs on two wheeled vehicles with round tires. You do in fact initiate a turn using countersteering while mountain biking, but only on hard pack.

Here is the wikipedia article. Perhaps it explains better than I do. 
Countersteering - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## baldylox

alasdairm said:


> i think you are overthinking a simple concept. oneplanka... and i are talking about analogies which help beginners understand the importance of front foot steering. on a bicycle you steer with the front wheel and the analogy, in this context, holds up perfectly well. the counter-steering issue is irrelevant.
> 
> alasdair


Yes. You are probably right. For the purposes it was used, it does make sense. Splitting hairs....


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## Grizz

I've been thinking about this awhile longer.

The concept of counter steering only applies if you are traveling in a straight path and then making a turn. If you are flowing directly from one turn into the next it doesn't exist. Some kind of oversteer to load the board or bike might.


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## Guest

gentlemen.. I appreciate all your input...Its an interesting conversation... cifex you explained your ideas clearly, but I digress. I have useed counter steering to enter a high speed left banked turn on my mountain bike; counter steering is necessary to counter act the centrifigal (sp) forces present.. I was wrong when I said I never used counter steering to enter a HIGH SPEED turn... I had a chance to lay in bed last night thinking about this.... I was wrong.

Cifex, thanks for posting that Wiki link, interesting an informative..

I take counter steering to literally mean steering or a steering movement in the opposite direction of the intended travel.?? Ha ha before I read the wiki post??


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## DragonXero13

While I can't explain the scientific evidence of counter-steering on a two wheeled bike and the gyroscope and all that, I can confirm that you do push the handle bar in the direction you want to go. When I ride my motorcycle, I'll use my hand/arm to push the handle bar in the direction I want to go. While doing this, I'll put pressure on my pegs and my gas tank and lean in the direction I'm going.


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## Vlaze

Correct, you steer right to pitch the bike left with a motorcycle, and on hard ground with mountain bikes or whatever where the rear end is not fish tailing, same thing for a tight turn.


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## Guest

The bike analogy is alright for the purpose of showing that a turn should be initiated with the front foot, because a bicycle cannot turn with its front wheel off of the ground.

However, as others have said, bicycles use countersteering to initiate turns. The problem with trying to tell people about this is that it isn't something you often do consciously on a bike, you just do it. When I was getting my motorcycle license, however, I really became aware of countersteering. The basic premise is that in order to turn a motorcycle, you need to lean in the direction of the turn. The problem is you can't just start leaning to one side or you're going to crash; the bike can't stay upright. To initiate a right turn on a motorcycle by leaning, you first push on the *right* hand grip to steer the front wheel to the left. At this point, you begin to lean to the right, and then finally apply pressure to the left hand grip to keep the front wheel pointed in the desired direction (to the right because you're turning right). 

A decent explanatory video, although countersteering can occur at speeds well below 15 mi/hr, contrary to what the gentleman says: YouTube - Swerve Technique on Motorcycle (Countersteering)
This one is sort of a lame explanation, as anyone who has taken a basic physics class knows that "centrifugal force" is a fictional force. Watch the low-speed demonstration though: YouTube - Slow-speed countersteering

Countersteering occurs when you are on a bicycle also, but it's less noticeable because the bicycle has much less inertia than the motorcycle. The bicycle is much easier to lean than the motorcycle, but a slight press on the right handlebar is still the best way to initiate a right turn.


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## yusoweird

The purpose of counter steer is to force lean on a bike / motorcycle. On a motorcycle at highspeed, when you lean, it does not provide enough force to cause the bike to lean enough because of the gyroscopic effect. So thats why you use counter steering to force a lower lean while turning. On snowboards? Your body is able to lean anyway you like to. You can distribute the weight to either edge easier. So there is no point to use counter steering to initiate a turn on a snowboard. Just lean because you CAN! Not so on a motorcycle because of the weight ratio between you and the bike are like 1:3. You only have control of 1/4 of the total weight. That's why bicycles doesn't require counter steering most of the time because you weight alot more than the bike... So how much weight do you control of on a snowboard? ALL OF IT!


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## baldylox

I Want To Eat Your Brains!


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## havin_a_ball

Depending on how steep and how much width you have to work with, you may add a sort of "hop" to your transition when doing a braking turn as described so well by Snowolf. 

It is almost like the hop feeling you get when carving but you will actually need to jump a bit.

An example that comes to mind is dropping a chute with a long board, where it is too chopped up for me to straightline it out.

I pick my 3 turn spots to get out of the chute, which are on the banks, and come in fast on an edge, do the braking turn but replace the "brake" with a "hop" right after I am past halfway in the turn. 

My momentum has already turned so I intentionally hop to get my board around with the result being a tighter turning radius at speed.





Snowolf said:


> Hi ekrina, that is a very common question!
> 
> 
> Okay, where you are at in your progression, do not worry too much about doing real carved turns. You need to stick with your skidded turns and start making them more dynamic. The way these riders are able to go straight down the steeper runs under control, is they are making a lot of very short radius dynamic skidded turns. They use the skidding as braking to maintain their speed.
> 
> To make what I call a "braking turn", you will add an extra amount of force on the tail of the board at the apex of your turn to deliberately skid the tail of the board. To get comfortable with this technique, pick a run that you are comfortable going down straight lining. As you are riding, initiate your turns correctly using the front foot to torsionally twist your board, engaging the side cut. Follow through with the rear foot once the turn is established.
> 
> For the sake of this example, let`s assume you are now on your heel edge. Now, when you board reaches the apex or high point of your turn (say about a 45 degree angle to the fall line)forcefully, extend you rear leg to push the tail of the board out away from you, causing a good skid and a spray of snow. At full extension, bring the board back under you and initiate a toe side turn. Again, at about the 45 degree point, extend your rear leg forcefully to push the board out behind you in an aggressive skid and a spray of snow.
> 
> Keep doing this and try to tighten the turns up so it becomes a real quick rhythm back and forth with shallower turns.


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## nofxn

Hate to bump an old thread but wow some of you have no idea about counter steering. It happens on motorcycles and bikes at speeds above 5-10 mph. So at high speed if I want to intiate a turn I am NOT going to turn the bar in the direction of the turn rather I will push the bar in the direction that I want to go in...

Kneedragger master race checking in


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## poutanen

nofxn said:


> Hate to bump an old thread but wow some of you have no idea about counter steering. It happens on motorcycles and bikes at speeds above 5-10 mph. So at high speed if I want to intiate a turn I am NOT going to turn the bar in the direction of the turn rather I will push the bar in the direction that I want to go in...
> 
> Kneedragger master race checking in


Yeah it's called push steering too. Learned it in basic motorcycle class. You fly through a set of cones and a guy stands in front of you with two flags. Whichever flag he raises you have to go that way, you're dinged points if you're not going fast enough.

It's so simple once you get it. He raises his right hand, you push the left bar and the bike tilts under you and initiates the turn to the left (his right). It should become a subconscious technique very quickly in a motorcycle riding career.


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## nofxn

poutanen said:


> Yeah it's called push steering too. Learned it in basic motorcycle class. You fly through a set of cones and a guy stands in front of you with two flags. Whichever flag he raises you have to go that way, you're dinged points if you're not going fast enough.
> 
> It's so simple once you get it. He raises his right hand, you push the left bar and the bike tilts under you and initiates the turn to the left (his right). It should become a subconscious technique very quickly in a motorcycle riding career.


You actually do it without even realizing, when I took my MSF course I screwed up on it cause I was thinking about it. This is a movement that actually comes naturally to us.

What do you ride? I have Ninja Kawasaki 2010


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## poutanen

nofxn said:


> You actually do it without even realizing, when I took my MSF course I screwed up on it cause I was thinking about it. This is a movement that actually comes naturally to us.
> 
> What do you ride? I have Ninja Kawasaki 2010


I started on a 2006 Yamaha FZ6, put about 25,000 km on it, then picked up a 2005 R1 (that was in 2008 or so) and had that for a year. Got a pretty good speeding ticket so I sold the bike before my insurance went through the roof. 

I'd love to get another bike one day but it'd probably be something like an FZ8 or FZ1. I think they're a good compromise between sport and touring.


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## ShredLife

i ride a bobber-style sportster with downturned bars and for me - although i too was taught to push the side of the bars you want to turn to its so much more natural for me to think about pulling the bar on the other side. it does the same thing, dropping the weight of the bike into the inside of the turn... maybe its just my forward position i dunno but when i think push i feel so far forward on the bike into the turn....


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