# What's your technique for switching lead foot?



## Donutz (May 12, 2010)

By which I mean, when you're riding at speed and you need to transfer into or out of switch, how do you do it? Nollie and 180? pop and 180? Just get the board flat and 180? I've seen a lot of people doing this seemingly simple move a lot of different ways. It's kind of hard to tell sometimes exactly what the mechanics are -- it's a pretty small move, and quickly done. Hell, if you're an old hand you may not even be aware of exactly what you're actually doing.


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## alecdude88 (Dec 13, 2009)

ride heel edge put some pressure on your nose start the nollie (doesn't even have to leave the ground) turn your shoulders


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## snowjeeper (Nov 11, 2008)

that seems like that only thing I do right! lol. I just butter it, like if i'm riding switch I do pretty much what alec said ^ do front foot toe pressure, turn the shoulders a little bit, push down with the back foot to get the full front edge, roll onto the flat with the other foot forward and then move back to the back edge riding regular again.


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## gjsnowboarder (Sep 1, 2009)

Mostly I use a scissoring motion of the legs.


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## justdust (Jan 27, 2009)

This weekend I was doing a series of fast flat ground spins first in one direction, then the other and when I came out of them I was surprised to realize that I had to think about whether I was riding switch or not...the spins just force you to improve edge control to the point that you hardly think about it...after developing that edge control switch is just a matter of leaning into your carve.


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## Jeklund (Dec 14, 2009)

I just rotate around on my uphill edge I the the term is "Helicopter", sometimes ill pop a 180 but only if I'm not moving.


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## fattrav (Feb 21, 2009)

I stop, lie down on the snow and roll over which ever way i want to switch too, get back up, then cruise off...


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## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

fattrav said:


> I stop, lie down on the snow and roll over which ever way i want to switch too, get back up, then cruise off...


the only logical approach to the situation


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## rasmasyean (Jan 26, 2008)

I find that in high speeds, it's actually easier to 180 (i.e. takes less effort)...at least the way I do it. I sort of do a nose-roll/mini-nollie with the first part of the manuever invovling the nose-edge stll on the ground. The speeding passing ground helps throw my board into a spin. And at higher speeds (assuming you land aligned) it will lock onto the landing and seems to stop the spin and keep it aligned in the direction of travel.

But I think an even less-effort and faster way I've seen involves un-weighting rapidly and spining your arms in the opposite direction of the board. You barely get off the ground...just enough to not skid, and the counteractive arm motion spins the board quickly, and also stops the board spin quickly as the arm motion stops.


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## mrjimyjohn (Dec 18, 2010)

usually when im going fast regular (not switch) ill simply do a flat 180 because im terrible at landing anything switch on edge...but thats just me

when im going slow i usually nollie pop 180...it just feels nore natural that poping off the tail somehow:dunno:


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## Donutz (May 12, 2010)

rasmasyean said:


> But I think an even less-effort and faster way I've seen involves un-weighting rapidly and spining your arms in the opposite direction of the board. You barely get off the ground...just enough to not skid, and the counteractive arm motion spins the board quickly, and also stops the board spin quickly as the arm motion stops.


Yeah, I've seen that and I think it's about the best-looking way of reversing foot. In principle it should be as straightforward as you describe it. In practice I've tried it a couple times and about 25% of the time I either catch an edge and crater, or under-spin and crater. Either way, I'm defacing the run with my face, which doesn't improve the face-value of either. (Sorry)

I guess what I'm trying to find out is whether there's a hidden trick to any of these options, or if it's just a matter of practicing until you can do it without killing yourself.


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## rasmasyean (Jan 26, 2008)

Donutz said:


> Yeah, I've seen that and I think it's about the best-looking way of reversing foot. In principle it should be as straightforward as you describe it. In practice I've tried it a couple times and about 25% of the time I either catch an edge and crater, or under-spin and crater. Either way, I'm defacing the run with my face, which doesn't improve the face-value of either. (Sorry)
> 
> I guess what I'm trying to find out is whether there's a hidden trick to any of these options, or if it's just a matter of practicing until you can do it without killing yourself.


There's prolly some subtle shoulder / hip motions as well. Maybe you can try it standing still on a level slope until you get it. I'm sure since everyone's body is different, you have to find your own precise motions to get it down when you do this "twist".


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## Donutz (May 12, 2010)

Snowolf said:


> Donutz...Have you played around with flat spin 360`s? These will really help you with edge control and timing. If I don`t want to pop and actual 180 or do a nose roll 180 out of laziness, I will simply do a flat spin 180. These flat spin 360`s are often called "helicopters" and are done with the feet to time and switch your edges. No upper body rotation needed or wanted.


I _have_ been doing those. One of my takeaways from the SA vids, in fact. I can also do a reverse at reasonable speed by using the same technique, but I don't think that's adequate for a lot of situations. I'm trying to 'move up', and I guess I'm looking for a silver bullet.


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## snowjeeper (Nov 11, 2008)

which vid did they show that in donutz?


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## Donutz (May 12, 2010)

snowjeeper said:


> which vid did they show that in donutz?


Buttering Intro -- "Spinning on the ground" section.


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## john doe (Nov 6, 2009)

Just a simple 180 skid/butter. I suck at switch riding right now so anything else into or out of switch is risking it. Love doing helicopters to warm up the ankles at the beginning of the day.


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## rasmasyean (Jan 26, 2008)

I don't think a "helicopter" is the trick in itself. It's a drill used to get the feel for spinning and moving onto pressed spins and landing spins. It's like "falling leaf".


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## rasmasyean (Jan 26, 2008)

Snowolf said:


> Never said it was a "trick" and the actual proper term is a 360 flat spin. It is used as a tool to teach not only balance and weight shift, but good edging movements and timing. It is actually a task for the AASI cert 2. This and edge change drills are something that the AASI model uses to get noobs to quit flailing their arms around to pivot the board and learn actual good edging techniques...


I’ll once again disagree with your concept of what snowboarding is. While focusing on one aspect of riding like target training edge awareness and control is great, your other body parts (arms, etc.) should also come into play if you want them to. Most people would snowboard with their entire bodies, not just their lower half. When you go into jumping and tricks and such, you will rely on your arms and “pivoting” a lot, right? But you try draw a fat line between what YOU (or AASI) consider “riding” vs. “tricking”. As if there is nothing in between and techniques don’t cross over. But I strongly believe you are incorrect in this assessment. 

To tell a snowboarder that there is only ONE TRUE WAY a snowboard should be ridden isn’t really taking into consideration what the participant wants to do to enjoy their experience. It’s trying to tell them how they SHOULD enjoy it according to YOUR standards. Arm flailing is practiced by A LOT of boarders on various levels…really good ones especially. And if a person’s body and personality skews them to this “technique”, who are you to be the “elitist” who snickers at how “dumb” they look because they are not conforming to some rigid standard you were taught from your specific Great Snowboarding Order?

It’s like saying…”OK, let’s assume you have no arms…this is how you snowboard.” I mean, even ski racers use their poles for balancing, so why shouldn’t snowboarders use their arms?


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## Donutz (May 12, 2010)

In I.T., there's a thing called "Best Practices". It's not a set of rigid rules, there's no elitism involved. It's just the case that over a number of decades of different people handling specific problems (like, say, Disaster Recovery plans), certain practices have been shown to be the best way of handling most situations most of the time. Groups of I.T. people have collected these ideas and published them for everyone's benefit. You are perfectly free to ignore best practices. You are perfectly free to assume that all the people who collected all that experience and distilled it are probably a bunch of self-important morons, and you are perfectly free to assume that you're much smarter than them. You're probably wrong, and you'll probably get burned badly for it. In fact, you'll probably get fired for it. Or not hired in the first place.

In case I'm being too subtle for anyone, AASI/CASI approved techniques are probably the snowboarding version of Best Practices.


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## rasmasyean (Jan 26, 2008)

Donutz said:


> In I.T., there's a thing called "Best Practices". It's not a set of rigid rules, there's no elitism involved. It's just the case that over a number of decades of different people handling specific problems (like, say, Disaster Recovery plans), certain practices have been shown to be the best way of handling most situations most of the time. Groups of I.T. people have collected these ideas and published them for everyone's benefit. You are perfectly free to ignore best practices. You are perfectly free to assume that all the people who collected all that experience and distilled it are probably a bunch of self-important morons, and you are perfectly free to assume that you're much smarter than them. You're probably wrong, and you'll probably get burned badly for it. In fact, you'll probably get fired for it. Or not hired in the first place.
> 
> In case I'm being too subtle for anyone, AASI/CASI approved techniques are probably the snowboarding version of Best Practices.


First of all, I.T. is the practice of using computers...something that pretty much revolves arround a science and works pretty much the same way across computing devices. And you do it for work, to process information in a fashion to make profit for your company according to the "best practices". You can also program "flowery graphics" in to your applications, but you save that for your personal computer life because it's not part of what the company wants...unless you are in the business of making those of course. But that also falls into "expressing your style and do what makes you happy".

If you made an analogy to "martial arts", that's actually more of a sport like snowboarding. Bruce Lee became great because he said that there is no one true way to become a good fighter. You have to discover the most effective way to fight that suits your body and soul. Or something like that...

All I'm saying is that snowboarding is not work. And there is no one way to do it. When you "flail your arms" correctly...which is actually using them to balance and increase/decrease/manipulate the moment of inertia of your *entire snowboarding mass*, you can train your muscles to develop your own style and unique ways of riding....something that suits you own "body and soul". Now of course you have to be able to like not catch an edge, etc. but it's NOT wrong to not conform to the "most efficient" way according to some body of knowledge in terms of caloric expendature or whatever. After all, efficient does NOT EQUAL effective as well.

Now this video is a little extreme, but it shows you how your arms (including hips, shoulders, etc.) can be used to manipulate your motion in one of the most precise events. Even if you can't do what he does, the physics principles still apply...even when you don't leave the ground!
Inside the Action - Interactive Graphic - NYTimes.com


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## Donutz (May 12, 2010)

rasmasyean said:


> If you made an analogy to "martial arts", that's actually more of a sport like snowboarding. Bruce Lee became great because he said that there is no one true way to become a good fighter. You have to discover the most effective way to fight that suits your body and soul. Or something like that...


Interesting thing about martial arts... If you study multiple disciplines, you'll find differences for sure -- Tai Kwan Do and Kung Fu look very little alike. But When you peel away trivial differences -- TKW kick is with the ball of the foot, KF kick is with the heel, for instance -- you'll find that the basics are very very similar. I haven't taken Karate or Aikido, but I'd bet real money that the basics of the kicks are as similar as they are with TKW and KF, like keeping your weight low (supporting knee bent), not over committing (you should be able to draw your kicking leg back after the kick without putting it down), yadda yadda...

Trying to equate best practices with business only is a red herring. I'd bet that best practices exist in most things. Certainly in most sports. There are also things that don't really have a 'best practice', like in the thread I started about switching lead leg. That just seems to be about whatever works for you.

I've seen people doing things "wrong" but being very good nevertheless. Trouble is, if they did things "right", they'd be even better. They just have a shitload of natural talent. I've seen guys on the mountain who are obviously putting their weight on their back leg, using their upper body to force their turns, but still doing shit that I wouldn't dare try at my level. But I'll bet you a couple of cookies that someone's offering in another thread that if those guys cleaned up their technique, they'd improve immediately.

There are no rules in snowboarding like there are in Martial Arts. You're not going to fail your belt test or some such, and nobody's going to come up and slap you upside the head. But taking advice from people who've been at it longer does not diminish you.


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## Donutz (May 12, 2010)

Donutz said:


> like in the thread I started about switching lead leg. That just seems to be about whatever works for you.


Fuck me, I'm IN the thread that I started about switching lead leg. :laugh: :laugh:
I guess senility is setting in...

Shows you how much these threads wander, though.


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## Thad Osprey (Feb 18, 2009)

I'm still waiting for Rasmasyean to post a video to prove beyond reasonable doubt how his prescribed technique is actually better. It can be measured with various indicators like style (i.e. looks good), efficiency (i.e. feels good) , effectiveness (i.e. the general sense that somehow you are achieving the desired outcome with relatively low cost in terms of energy, safety etc...) 

I dont think we can argue against good solid evidence. But the evidence out there right now suggests Snowolf is asserting the more convincing position.

What Rasmasyean seems to prescribing is a very lazy way of riding which suggests that you can use your arms (smaller muscles) to compensate for what the lower body and torso (larger nuscles)should be doing. Sure, it can get your board to do the same thing. But its not just about board position is it? There are so many factors involved like how your weight is distributed before, during and after the manouver and how safe it is, on what scale and terrain that manouvere could and should be carried out etc. 

Ulimately though, I dont think we should all be caught in the trap of trying to be "right". Everyone who can ride up to a certain level thinks he is a "good rider" and until we get someone to actually make a video of our riding, jibbing, jumping, flailing etc and get an assessment of it, we never really know how unstable, unstylish and ineffecient we actually are. And the worst thing is for one not to know oneself and in trying to be a "Good Samaritan" turn out to be a False Prophet.

I'd like to thank people like Snowolf who has painlessly labored to put us on the safe path. As for the other wolves who have donned the sheep's clothing I would like to thank them for helping us to review and in that process refine our pedagogy.


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## rasmasyean (Jan 26, 2008)

Snowolf said:


> So, how`s that arm flailing working for you here?.....:laugh:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That kid is actually my friend, but there's another one where he actually hits it with the grab. I think what messed him up is his " <YEAH!> fist shaking at the landing". He's actually pretty good and does kinked rails and stairs and those barrel things, and even picks some random place to go off trail into the trees...something I wouldn't do myself. I think I'll wipe and lose my teeth. 

I do have the SA videos from a long time ago an have a subscription. I tried to get him to watch it but he says he want's to "discover" things himself.


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## rasmasyean (Jan 26, 2008)

Thad Osprey said:


> I'm still waiting for Rasmasyean to post a video to prove beyond reasonable doubt how his prescribed technique is actually better. It can be measured with various indicators like style (i.e. looks good), efficiency (i.e. feels good) , effectiveness (i.e. the general sense that somehow you are achieving the desired outcome with relatively low cost in terms of energy, safety etc...)
> 
> I dont think we can argue against good solid evidence. But the evidence out there right now suggests Snowolf is asserting the more convincing position.
> 
> ...


I don't have any videos of myself "demonstrating" anything. Sorry. But I've already posted so many videos of boarders doing hard trails with these manuevers and it's not "good enough"...because they are "not what 90% of the riders who ask questions would be doing" or some crap. Either that or "they would be so much better if they used proper technique". Or some other reason why my case is "not valid". But since Snowolf has an AASI certification and 100,000 posts, my videos of "other boarders" are meaningless apparently to some. So why bother. :dunno:


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## Zapatista (Jul 24, 2008)

rasmasyean said:


> First of all, I.T. is the practice of using computers...something that pretty much revolves arround a science and works pretty much the same way across computing devices. And you do it for work, to process information in a fashion to make profit for your company according to the "best practices". You can also program "flowery graphics" in to your applications, but you save that for your personal computer life because it's not part of what the company wants...unless you are in the business of making those of course. But that also falls into "expressing your style and do what makes you happy".
> 
> If you made an analogy to "martial arts", that's actually more of a sport like snowboarding. Bruce Lee became great because he said that there is no one true way to become a good fighter. You have to discover the most effective way to fight that suits your body and soul. Or something like that...
> 
> ...




Dude, you have NO idea what you're talking about. To start snowboarding is most definitely 'a science'(if you wanna use that phrase) more so than IT. IT is more protocol than science. Whether you realize it or not, you are utilizing many aspects of physics, and aerodynamics when hurl your self down a mountain. You have science in your board and gear as well. To argue there isn't a correct way to snowboard is laughable. Is there a correct way to make a snowboard? There's many different types out there but the overall design hasn't changed much and is slowly being perfected. I understand your 'big picture' view point, however there are fundamentals to everything. Bruce Lee through a punch and kick with excellent form.

I work in IT, and that analogy is perfect. You can train your body to do many things; which includes developing bad techniques. Just because it 'works' for your doesn't mean it isn't poor form. Imagine doing things the right way and progressing faster. I know people that literally can't link turns, they ride down on their heel-side edge the WHOLE way. Are you telling me that's perfectly fine? Where do you draw the line at what's OK to teach?


Different styles are wonderful, but everyone knows the basics. You might not see many pros 'Euro Carve', but they all know how.


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## rasmasyean (Jan 26, 2008)

Zapatista said:


> Dude, you have NO idea what you're talking about. To start snowboarding is most definitely 'a science'(if you wanna use that phrase) more so than IT. IT is more protocol than science. Whether you realize it or not, you are utilizing many aspects of physics, and aerodynamics when hurl your self down a mountain. You have science in your board and gear as well. To argue there isn't a correct way to snowboard is laughable. Is there a correct way to make a snowboard? There's many different types out there but the overall design hasn't changed much and is slowly being perfected. I understand your 'big picture' view point, however there are fundamentals to everything. Bruce Lee through a punch and kick with excellent form.
> 
> I work in IT, and that analogy is perfect. You can train your body to do many things; which includes developing bad techniques. Just because it 'works' for your doesn't mean it isn't poor form. Imagine doing things the right way and progressing faster. I know people that literally can't link turns, they ride down on their heel-side edge the WHOLE way. Are you telling me that's perfectly fine? Where do you draw the line at what's OK to teach?
> 
> Different styles are wonderful, but everyone knows the basics. You might not see many pros 'Euro Carve', but they all know how.


OK, so maybe IT is more of a protocol than a "natural science", you are right. As it hardly takes any "scientific/mathematical talent" to work with computers nowadays...other than perhaps a bit into programming. But what I meant was that it's a regimented knowledge process vs. an "expressive art" like snowboarding.

As to whether using your arms as balance (or abrupt motions) like a lizard uses it's tail to dart arround at insects is "bad form" is arguable. It still depends on the person. I was able to do double-blacks the second time I went snowboarding and I don't recall the requirement of what "AASI" deems as "the ultimate technique" in any of the literature I read for instruction (pre-Youtube era). Now I think this is pretty good riding progress considering I was mostly a desk jockey and NOT an athelete other than perhaps the occasional softball picnic cheese. And this included moguls even, just that I had to rest a few times because I wasn't in shape. It's hard to say whether or not if I paid SnoWolf for a personal lesson to start, I'd be hitting these double-blacks right after the "basic turn" lesson, but I'd say it's just a different technique that has it's own advantages and disadvantages. I wouldn't be so hasty to say that it's plain wrong and should never be used otherwise you are dooming yourself to a ruined snowboard life or something like that. And later on, when you are in tune with your arms, they are used A LOT in freestyle manuevers...so what's the problem?

In case you were wondering whether the double-black was one of those "baby mountain" ones... I actually remeber the name of it. It's here.


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## rasmasyean (Jan 26, 2008)

Snowolf said:


> Has nothing to do with post count but the certification does mean that I have to be able to ride to certain standards. The videos that you have posted show riders using counter and anticipatory rotation to set up their body for each maneuver. There is a HUGE difference between that and what you tell you people to do. They are not throwing their arms around to control the board. *their board control still comes from the feet up as it should*. What they are doing is setting up. As I have told you before, the use of counter and of rotation is the correct way in certain situation such as a mogul field. Where you err is in your insistence that upper body rotation is an acceptable *substitute *for lower body movements and that is utterly false.


I did not say that it's a "substitute". I did emphasize that you should consider your ENTIRE body. What I get from you is that sometimes you should only use lower body movements and with zero or minimal upper body consideration as the "correct technique for that terrain" (otherwise you are "spastic"). I'm disagreeing that you have to do X technique at Y terrain. Because it all depends on what you want to do and how you want to snowboard. In addition, when you hit a "mogul field" or whatever, you will be that much used to a manuever be advantageous and also develop your own style.

*"...their board control still comes from the feet up as it should"*
This is contradictory to your previous statements. The use of anticipator implies control comes from the top down. The used of counter implies control comes simultaneously from both upper and lower halfs.


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## elstinky (Jan 24, 2010)

rasmasyean said:


> And you do it for work, to process information in a fashion to make profit for your company according to the "best practices".


some people program for fun, and there's a lot more about IT than 'processing information', depending on the field you're in.




> As it hardly takes any "scientific/mathematical talent" to work with computers nowadays...other than perhaps a bit into programming. But what I meant was that it's a regimented knowledge process vs. an "expressive art" like snowboarding.


if done well, the process of creating a piece of software for scratch can be like any other expressive art. I am not saying it is always, but that's the same with boarding: most people I see boarding are not expressing art, thy're just carving down the mountain. It's not because you do some buttering or a nice jump that you're performing art. Yes there's an artist in all of us, but to really shine and stand out (like famous artists/boarders/programmers/...) you need a certain amount of talent and not everybody has that.




> If you made an analogy to "martial arts", that's actually more of a sport like snowboarding. Bruce Lee became great because he said that there is no one true way to become a good fighter. You have to discover the most effective way to fight that suits your body and soul. Or something like that...


sorry but have a very incomplete and crippled idea of what IT is about (as already proved by your statements above). This analogy is true both for IT and martial arts. Hell it's even true for pretty much anything involving skill and creativity in life: notice how in the three lines below you can replace the word IT with boarding/sex/woodcraft/art/whatever. (also, don't go thinking Bruce Lee invented this type of philosophy. Others have, already thousands of years ago, because it's just human nature)

Just like with martial arts, the 'best practices' in IT are only there as a guideline. There are no fixed rules about how and when you actually use them.
Just like with martial arts, there is no one and true way to approach a particular problem in IT.
Just like with martial arts, one has to discover the most effective way to deal with a particular problem in IT.


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## jlm1976 (Feb 26, 2009)

Does shoulder/upperbody steering work? Sure it does. It can make the board pivot just like twisting it with your front foot, scissoring your legs, or rotating your hip does. However, once you move on to terrain that requires fast, tight turns such as the tight trees here on the east coast, or really steep terrain, or want to start laying down some carves, shoulder/upperbody rotation and countering is too slow and not effective. 
But, foot steering is useful almost all the time, so why not use that in the beginning. 
The closer to the board you make the movement, the sooner the board responds, it really is that simple.So what's faster than your shoulder? Your hip. What is faster than your hip? Your knee. What is faster than your knee? Your ankle.
There are places where countering is good, like in a shifty(in the air or to make the end of carved turn look more stylish) or right at the finish of a turn where a SLIGHT counter will help get the board around. But, countering in the bumps is so when we want to release the edge with out FEET, the board will immediately be starting it's next turn. 
To me, to be an expert snowboarder, you need to have a solid understanding of ALL the different ways that how we move our body affects the board and what the pluses and minuses are to all those movements. Where they work and where they don't, where will they make my snowboarding more stylish and fun and where will they hurt me? This allows you to apply what movements you want to apply where and how aggressively you do them, and that to me determines someone's style. To limit yourself to only foot steering or arm flailing only is self limiting. 
For example, as seen in my profile pic, I like to drag my rear hand when carving on toeside. This pulls my hips and shoulders out of alignment and takes pressure off the nose of the snowboard. But who cares about that if it makes my turn look stylish and it makes me smile right? Well, I don't, but I also understand where I can and cannot get away with doing this. Do that move on steeper terrain or with less than perfect carving conditions and you'll most likely blow out of your turn. 
All movements have a time and a place where they are most efficient and fun is definitely a part of that efficiency. But understand where those fun moves may hurt you, and when you give advice, ask yourself if you tell someone to throw their front shoulder to turn, are you going to have to tell them to stop doing that in a few weeks when they post about not being able to turn in bumps?


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## rasmasyean (Jan 26, 2008)

Snowolf said:


> I would tell you again the exact same thing that Jim1976 just did and he is telling you exactly what AASI would tell you. The steering comes from the feet up. The use of counter and anticipatory rotation is used to "set up" the upper body to enhance or make those lower body movements as effective and efficient as possible.
> 
> Here is a prime example of how counter works against us.....
> 
> ...


OK, I think I get what you are misinterpreting. Counter-rotate to me is an action. To you, you are assuming it's a state. And then you're comparing it to an action (anticipatory). :dunno: I never said that you should ride with your waist twisted or shoulders not alligned with the board when going straight (alpine carving boarding aside). That's NOT counter-rotation to me. Counter-rotation is when you simultaneously whip your arms in the opposite rotation of your board. An ACTION.

In your toe-side turn example, if the rider's shoulders are aligned with his board (not facing downhill), and there is a "bump" he wants to turn away from...he can "simultaneously" rotate his upper body...AND...edge plus rotate his board in the opposite direction. All at once! Don't tell me this is not a faster! Because it is MUCH faster that anticipatory. It's in the word...anticipate...that means you do it before your actual turn! Maybe you can think of this as a "shifty on the snow" or "partial butter", or whatever if you want...but it works great and there are many situations for it.

In 00:31 here, it can be clearly seen that the boarder avoids this rock by counter-rotating. Notice how in this toeside turn his lead hand thrusts toward his heelside and rear hand thrusts toward the toe side. From top view, his upper body rotates CCW and his lower CW to perform a rapid toeside turn. I seriously don't think it would be faster if he first leaned his fore shoulder toward the toe side and then edged. He would run over that rock prolly.





If you are talking about this "extreme video", then it still looks like to me that he uses a lot of counter-rotating ACTION.


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## Thad Osprey (Feb 18, 2009)

Seems like everyone has been quite patient with Rasmasyean so far and tried to explain things nicely. For someone who puts in so much time into detail however, I still cant understand quite a few things. Perhaps I am a little "spastic" myself but its seems like Rasmasyean:

a) does not seem to have a consistent definition of counter-rotation
b) seems to have a poor understanding of what it is
c) builds too much into what is a useful manouvere in APPROPRIATE solutions and treats it as a panacea to all things
d) has used 2 videos which are quite poor justification examples. The dude riding down the hill has loose arms (prob involunary at that due to his quick movements) but his hip and foot movement still appear to initiate his turns and he does seem to use a lot of sliding turns to deal with the steep terrain he is on. I will admit there is counter-rotation thrown in (as a result of rapd anticipatory motion) but this is not sufficient to prove Rasma is right. The buttering video has honestly less arm movement, most of the time the arms are raised to aid balance and movement of the shoulders, but those too arent counter-rotation. 

The problem with arguing wth Rasma is that most of the time people take issue with the general premise of what he is proposing. But Rasma will then argue by using the quote function and then try to pick apart specific sentences to defend and justify his point and discredit other people as being inaccurate. This then descends into a war of semantics by which Rasma gains ground by blurring both what he and other people say. And in the process pissing of the IT folks.

Rasma will then appeal to the fact that since some people appear to be using counter-rotation in certain videos he finds, that he is not entirely wrong - just misunderstood and underappreciated by a crowd that is scientifically uninformed and piss poor at physics. All of these are very tiring tactics and potentially harmful for people who are impressionistic and still in their initial learnng phase.

Rasma can appeal to whatever he wants, but unless counter-rotation is used in its PROPER time and place (something Rasma seems more to contradict than agree with in his history of posts)I will still contend that it is an unhelpful and dare I say improper shortcut. 

Something tells me, Rasma is now going to click on "quote"............


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## ev13wt (Nov 22, 2010)

At speed I just do a 180 really low one though. Pre turn my waist and upper body before lightly popping off, then use my legs to bring the board around.


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## Donutz (May 12, 2010)

"What's your technique for switching lead foot?"

This thread has generated so much sound and fury, I almost feel like a troll :laugh:


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## Donutz (May 12, 2010)

ev13wt said:


> At speed I just do a 180 really low one though. Pre turn my waist and upper body before lightly popping off, then use my legs to bring the board around.


I've been practicing that variation the last couple of days. Works quite well with the NS and the reverse camber. Tried it with the Ride Havoc (traditional camber) the other day, though. Not good.


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## Leo (Nov 24, 2009)

I do a quick backside 180 spin on my toe edge... frontside 180 spin on my heel edge... I don't know what this is called, but I put pressure on my heel edge, start rotating frontside, then transfer all my weight to my front leg while lifting and rotating my tail edge to the front. My tail will leave the ground while my tip remains planted. I'm still noob at this one though. Can do the same backside, but not as good. My plan was to work on those a lot this season, but so far I can't get out anymore. Too much going on 

Life owns you so hardcore sometimes.


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## sook (Oct 25, 2009)

rasmasyean said:


> In 00:31 here, it can be clearly seen that the boarder avoids this rock by counter-rotating. Notice how in this toeside turn his lead hand thrusts toward his heelside and rear hand thrusts toward the toe side. From top view, his upper body rotates CCW and his lower CW to perform a rapid toeside turn. I seriously don't think it would be faster if he first leaned his fore shoulder toward the toe side and then edged. He would run over that rock prolly.


I like the idea that there isn't one right way to do anything, but each of those ways always has varying degrees of efficiency. Whipping your arms around certainly isn't going to help you dodge trees for exactly the reasons snowolf has said above. With the input coming from your upper body, the lag between input and response is way too long to make quick, successive turns.

I watched that video with the panic turn at 31 seconds, and I really don't see him whipping his arms around to initiate the turn. He seemed to already be making his toeside turn and his upper body was more or less in line with the board, but he saw that obstacle and had to panic skid or whatever. Most of that movement was in his lower body and his arms really didn't move. I'm far from an expert, but I think your movement analysis needs work.


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## Leo (Nov 24, 2009)

That's Ryan Knapton and he isn't avoiding anything in that vid. He his snow slashing. He has another video of himself slashing random people that exact same way.

He is also using more of his lower body for those maneuvers and turning his head the direction of his spins. This is the video that got me trying stuff and it is what I was trying to describe myself doing in the above post. Of course mine looks nothing like his haha,


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## sook (Oct 25, 2009)

Leo said:


> That's Ryan Knapton and he isn't avoiding anything in that vid. He his snow slashing.


Thats what I thought cause the object in the frame was just a snowball or something. Just the same, upper body remains pretty quiet during a sudden maneuver.

I've watched the whole thing alot in the past hour. I want to practice my flatland stuff this season. Smooth things out a bit.


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## Leo (Nov 24, 2009)

sook said:


> Thats what I thought cause the object in the frame was just a snowball or something. Just the same, upper body remains pretty quiet during a sudden maneuver.
> 
> I've watched the whole thing alot in the past hour. I want to practice my flatland stuff this season. Smooth things out a bit.


I picked up a few things from this vid. I'm trying to learn the damn butter spin, but can't seem to get it. I think it would be a lot easier on a softer board lol. My backside switches look super nasty too and not in a good way. He makes it look so damn easy.


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## jlm1976 (Feb 26, 2009)

Leo said:


> I picked up a few things from this vid. I'm trying to learn the damn butter spin, but can't seem to get it. I think it would be a lot easier on a softer board lol. My backside switches look super nasty too and not in a good way. He makes it look so damn easy.


I got them down by practicing the butter spins on flat snow while not moving(like at the end of a run at the chairlift). Just start slightly on edge and in one motion go into a press and use your upperbody to get the spin going and keep it going by keep your head and shoulders ahead of the snowboard in the spin. It will be really hard at first but keep at it and eventually you'll be able to 360's or higher. It makes the butter spins he's doing in the video so much easier. It also helps a ton with air 360's. 

That is a sick video, though I prefer switching from regular to switch with unnatural spins(frontside 180 from toe edge onto your switch toe edge or backside off your heels landing switch heelside, in the instructor world they are called "toe to toes" and "heel to heels"). So much fun!


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## rasmasyean (Jan 26, 2008)

Thad Osprey said:


> Seems like everyone has been quite patient with Rasmasyean so far and tried to explain things nicely. For someone who puts in so much time into detail however, I still cant understand quite a few things. Perhaps I am a little "spastic" myself but its seems like Rasmasyean:
> 
> a) does not seem to have a consistent definition of counter-rotation
> b) seems to have a poor understanding of what it is
> ...


Here’s your “quote” to make you happy! 

First of all, I actually have over 10 years of experience in “IT” so that makes me one of the “IT folks” that I would be presumably trying to “insult”. But you didn’t know that so nice try.

If some of you are so adamant that Ryan’s arms “barely move”, or that he’s not really counter-rotating his turn, James’ arms are just flailing freely like pony tails (i.e. without any kung fu fighting significance), and that my “motion analysis” needs work, then I can’t really win giving you more vids or excepts, or whatever can I? But…here’s a nice switch riding video that actually happens to be on topic. At 00:17, you tell yourself whether or not he’s using his arms to help quickly rotate his board in place.






If some of you STILL can’t see this, then heck if I know, maybe it’s just being “pissed poor at physics” or whatever. Incidentally I was actually just disappointed recently that a nephew I saw over the holiday says that Physics is not required in the American HS curriculum. Which I thought was really bad. And it got me to think, that learning about moments of inertia, rotational dynamics, and such may be part of college physics. I’m not sure so since I don’t know what the heck any of you guys learned or how old you are, etc. don’t take my word for it anymore. Just try the following exercise.

A “drill” used for getting used to board sliding on rails is to do it on a beginner slope but with a little edging (in place of the board slide). You turn your board to 90, and skid in the same direction…then turn it back to 0. Try it 2 ways.

*First way: Put you arms to the side and grab your legs and do the ground 90.
Second way: Swing your arms in the opposite direction of your board while doing the ground 90.*

Feel for yourself which way is faster. This is a good demonstration because it goes all the way to 90, so if anything, you would HAVE to feel a difference, if there is one.


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## jyuen (Dec 16, 2007)

i find it easier to nollie front side spins but ollieng backside spins... personal preference really


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