# Technical "principles" of snowboarding?



## ConcreteVitamin (Aug 3, 2017)

In surfing -- yes bear with me for a while -- there are many well-known, well-taught, and most importantly, *technical* principles to make riding better. By technical, I mean that usually each principle is associated with a rationale. Examples:

* Leading arm should be outside of heel side. It generally should not be in front of the body.
* Where you look is where you go. Head should be up and look at target of travel (wave lips).
* Surf at 1/3 top of the wave (to get more speed).
* Functional stance, where the two knee caps point toward each other. This is to facilitate easily shifting weight in many directions.
* Exaggerate upper body movement to lead lower body and the board.
* Turn from the tail / back of the board.

My question is, *what are your favourite technical principles in snowboarding? What principles do you go by that make your riding much better? * I'm looking for things more *non-obvious* than "bend your knees" or "keep weight centered on both feet".


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## Snowdaddy (Feb 2, 2018)

Interesting topic! I'm all ears...


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## surfvilano (Dec 20, 2010)

ConcreteVitamin said:


> In surfing -- yes bear with me for a while -- there are many well-known, well-taught, and most importantly, *technical* principles to make riding better. By technical, I mean that usually each principle is associated with a rationale. Examples:
> 
> * Leading arm should be outside of heel side. It generally should not be in front of the body.
> * Where you look is where you go. Head should be up and look at target of travel (wave lips).
> ...


Lol, the only way I'm surfing with my knee caps pointed towards each other is if I was born mad bow legged... I prefer my stance to be as natural as possible(knee caps pointed straight or angled slightly outward similar to snowboarding(close to ducked - 0 degree back foot since you never ride a surfboard backwards)). 

"Leading arm should be outside of heel side" Um.... Shouldn't your leading arm be directly besides your body, the same as snowboarding, unless you're trying to turn(heelside turns would involve moving your leading arm behind you and toeside turns would involve moving it in front of you)?

I don't know who told/taught you about most of those surfing "principles" but half of those seem wack to me. Sure, riding on the top 1/3-1/2 of the wave will help you keep speed. Using your upper body to initiate turns and looking where you want to go can also help. Not trying to be an ass, but maybe you should just practice more instead of looking towards "technical principles" to ride better... Trying to force your riding(inward facing knee caps? Exaggerating upper body motion?) instead of just practicing and slowly correcting any obvious errors will just cause you to fall/ride with crap technique even more in my opinion.

As for your main questions, "what are your favorite technical principles in snowboarding? What principles do you go by that make your riding much better?" - The basics lol, which you specifically said you weren't interest in. IMO, mastering the basics and being comfortable riding at speed both regular and switch on easy/medium difficulty terrain will allow you to progress into other more technical/advanced terrain/riding(big mountain or park - different strokes for different folks). There is no secret technique that you can read about / focus on while riding that will magically elevate your performance(This is true for both surfing & snowboarding as well as other sports in general). If you want suggestions about specific principles/techniques beyond the basics you'll need to specify what type of riding/progression you're looking to improve at. Just my $0.02...


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## ConcreteVitamin (Aug 3, 2017)

See below. These guys are million-dollar coaches. 



surfvilano said:


> Lol, the only way I'm surfing with my knee caps pointed towards each other is if I was born mad bow legged... I prefer my stance to be as natural as possible(knee caps pointed straight or angled slightly outward similar to snowboarding(close to ducked - 0 degree back foot since you never ride a surfboard backwards)).









surfvilano said:


> "Leading arm should be outside of heel side" Um.... Shouldn't your leading arm be directly besides your body, the same as snowboarding, unless you're trying to turn(heelside turns would involve moving your leading arm behind you and toeside turns would involve moving it in front of you)?


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## surfvilano (Dec 20, 2010)

I don't care if they're billion/trillion dollar coaches, I'm not surfing with my knee caps pointed together.... Get out there and surf instead of watching youtube videos if you want to get better. Likewise with snowboarding, or at least specify what trick or riding type you're trying to learn if you want specific advice.


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## poser (Mar 7, 2018)

I’ve done and do some surfing. I’m not a “surfer” because I don’t live near the coast, but I’m no slouch either. Caving the knees inwards defies all rational rules of anatomy and general athleticism. That’s the weakest stance you could possibly position yourself in. 

In this image, you can clearly see the surfer is pushing his knees outward, like they are designed to function.


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## BoardieK (Dec 21, 2015)

It's all about style and functionality to me. When surfing I like a deep bottom turn driving into nice climb and drops and a flowing roundhouse cutback, that's been my style for 40 years so when I started snowboarding 8 years ago I tried to carry that across. It means I take up a lot of the piste and I'm always on an edge constantly turning. 

To any park rat I probably look really boring!


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## ConcreteVitamin (Aug 3, 2017)

Guys I don't want to debate a surfing principle in this thread. See ~1:57 in first video. It's a general rule. The pic posted above probably means the surfer wants more stabilization in a fast wave. Different situations call for different positionings.

Please keep this snowboarding-specific.


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## Snowdaddy (Feb 2, 2018)

ConcreteVitamin said:


> Guys I don't want to debate a surfing principle in this thread. See ~1:57 in first video. It's a general rule. The pic posted above probably means the surfer wants more stabilization in a fast wave. Different situations call for different positionings.
> 
> Please keep this snowboarding-specific.


This is a fun little video with Ryan Knapton doing his carving stunts. We all ride a bit differently from each other and emphasis is very much depending on binding angles and stance width.


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## neni (Dec 24, 2012)

Ride low (lower!!! FFS!).
Get out of the backseat!

Was - and still is - the principle/mantra during my ~15y riding. Sure, terrain got incresingly difficult over the years, but with each new challenge, one's back to step 1: get low, get out of the backseat! Everything else comes second after a long gap, or is even a personal preference/style thing.


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## ConcreteVitamin (Aug 3, 2017)

Here’s one technique Bryan Fox seemingly has in a lot of his videos. Turning in powder, he mostly keeps leading hand LOW, outside his heelside. Back hand is UP and generates a lot of momentum. Recent clip: https://www.instagram.com/p/BrS2rk3g912


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## surfvilano (Dec 20, 2010)

ConcreteVitamin said:


> Guys I don't want to debate a surfing principle in this thread. See ~1:57 in first video. It's a general rule. The pic posted above probably means the surfer wants more stabilization in a fast wave. Different situations call for different positionings.
> 
> Please keep this snowboarding-specific.


"I dont want to debate surfing principle in this thread" - Then don't cite (false)surfing technique in your question-post?

"It's a general rule" - Is it? I'm at work so I can't watch those youtube videos currently but I'm guessing you're misinterpreting them if you believe a non "poo" stance requires pointing your knee caps together while riding. Either that or the guy making those intro to surfing tutorial videos has no idea what he is talking about(doubtful since he's a "million dollar coach"). If I had to bet money, I'd lean towards the former. 

*Like I said before, if you're not interested in the basics (I.E. keeping your downward edges raised at all times when turning, etc.) and you still want advice for technical "principles", then you need to express what type of progression you're looking to work at... *


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## Snowdaddy (Feb 2, 2018)

ConcreteVitamin said:


> * Leading arm should be outside of heel side. It generally should not be in front of the body.
> 
> * Where you look is where you go. Head should be up and look at target of travel (wave lips).
> 
> ...


I'd say that most of the stuff from surfing is applicable to snowboarding. One of the main differences between the two (as I see it) is the difference in counterforce from liquid and solid water :nerd:

I'm totally "on board" with the knee thing. Even duck stance riders like Ryan Knapton do it. I switched to positive angles because it was easier that way.

The thing with snowboarding is that there are so many types of boards. Different kinds of variable sidecuts and shapes. And then it's the matter of snow conditions.


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## Snowdaddy (Feb 2, 2018)

> * Functional stance, where the two knee caps point toward each other. This is to facilitate easily shifting weight in many directions.


I think this a bad way of describing what is happening with the knees. It's more "the back knee leads the back foot". You can be duck stanced and when you bend your knee in the turn it's possible to push the knee into the turn.

A duck stance rider like Knapton has a very wide and stable stance, but when he leans into his turn his back knee leads before his back foot. Just not all the time. 

Then if you look at riders with a more narrow and forward stance it happens nearly all the time. Since I love snowboard videos I'll post the latest Korua commercial.

https://www.koruashapes.com/yearning-for-turning/volume-8


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## wrathfuldeity (Oct 5, 2007)

Have never surfed...well I tried once and failed at the paddling part...lol

as for technical principles of snowboarding .... see creepy basement vid :hairy:


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## Rip154 (Sep 23, 2017)

Look up Shred Hacks with Xavier on youtube. Jeremy Jones is constantly pouring advice in his vids too.

As for just riding tech, there are so many opinions and adaptations based on equipment.

Common sense gets you a long way. Look uphill in resorts now and then. Read the terrain so you don't get stuck. Sometimes you should just go straight. Stay in balance over the edge on icy terrain. Don't land with straight legs. Don't grab tindy. Directional stance is usually better in powder. Don't skid out and cut across avalanche terrain. Spray skiers. Look over your shoulder when trying to spin. Duct tape can fix anything, so can voile straps. Wax on, wax off. Keep you edges sharp. Fuck fis.


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## Pointy Deity (Dec 12, 2014)

ConcreteVitamin said:


> Here’s one technique Bryan Fox seemingly has in a lot of his videos. Turning in powder, he mostly keeps leading hand LOW, outside his heelside. Back hand is UP and generates a lot of momentum. Recent clip: https://www.instagram.com/p/BrS2rk3g912


Oh cool, I do that with my back hand. I thought it was a bad habit that I needed to work on getting rid of but I guess I'll just carry on . 

As for "technical" principles... Look where you want to go. Steer with your front knee. Think/plan ahead instead of just reacting to the terrain. Always be in full control of your board.


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## Donutz (May 12, 2010)

neni said:


> Ride low (lower!!! FFS!).
> Get out of the backseat!
> 
> Was - and still is - the principle/mantra during my ~15y riding. Sure, terrain got incresingly difficult over the years, but with each new challenge, one's back to step 1: get low, get out of the backseat! Everything else comes second after a long gap, or is even a personal preference/style thing.


Mmm, yep. I was working on mogul riding this week (not from choice) and eventually figured out that I was going back-seat on my toe-side turns and having to rudder. Does not work. (sound of head hitting snow). Once I got that, things went much better. (sound of head hitting snow less often)


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## chomps1211 (Mar 30, 2011)

Donutz said:


> ...I was going back-seat on my toe-side turns and having to rudder. Does not work. (*sound of head hitting snow*). Once I got that, things went much better. (*sound of head hitting snow less often*)


Yeah! Donutz should get _dunked!_. Not _Thumped!_



>
-edit- @F1EA is right. :blink: I need to stay away from Donutz.  lol


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## deagol (Mar 26, 2014)

ConcreteVitamin said:


> Here’s one technique Bryan Fox seemingly has in a lot of his videos. Turning in powder, he mostly keeps leading hand LOW, outside his heelside. Back hand is UP and generates a lot of momentum. Recent clip: https://www.instagram.com/p/BrS2rk3g912


That was an amazing run..
Snow like that allows you to ride several ways and still look great IMO. Curious if that was a follow drone since some of the angles seemed like it was looking down on him from higher than a following rider could do..

RE the knees pointed at each other thing- I wonder if that is a weird way of describing the way Craig Kelly used to ride? Like others have said, there are many styles that work.


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## speedjason (May 2, 2013)

The more you watch the pros do it, there you realize there really isn't a set principle for snowboarding. Everyone is different.


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## Argo (Feb 25, 2010)

deagol said:


> That was an amazing run..
> Snow like that allows you to ride several ways and still look great IMO. Curious if that was a follow drone since some of the angles seemed like it was looking down on him from higher than a following rider could do..
> 
> RE the knees pointed at each other thing- I wonder if that is a weird way of describing the way Craig Kelly used to ride? Like others have said, there are many styles that work.


It qas a follow drone named Travis Rice. Gopro on a stick with a gimble. Look up some of skichef stuff on instagram, he uses like a 10' pole sometimes.


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## deagol (Mar 26, 2014)

Argo said:


> It qas a follow drone named Travis Rice. Gopro on a stick with a gimble. Look up some of skichef stuff on instagram, he uses like a 10' pole sometimes.


OK, that long stick could do it, pretty impressive. I was thinking "wow, that drone is avoiding the trees really well... and flying through the spray. ". It wasn't quite adding up.


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## Snowdaddy (Feb 2, 2018)

neni said:


> Ride low (lower!!! FFS!).
> Get out of the backseat!
> 
> Was - and still is - the principle/mantra during my ~15y riding. Sure, terrain got incresingly difficult over the years, but with each new challenge, one's back to step 1: get low, get out of the backseat! Everything else comes second after a long gap, or is even a personal preference/style thing.


Where's the backseat on a snowboard? I know where it is when skiing...


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## neni (Dec 24, 2012)

Snowdaddy said:


> Where's the backseat on a snowboard? I know where it is when skiing...


When you lean on your back leg, you're in the backseat. It's an intuitive defensive mechanism if getting insecure, thus the general problem of every beginner, always, but also advanced riders can revert if faced with unfamiliar scary terrain.

Backseat is bad cos you block your ability to steer and react.


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## Snow Hound (Jul 21, 2012)

Certain boards and/or conditions warrant more rear foot weight than others.


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## Snowdaddy (Feb 2, 2018)

neni said:


> When you lean on your back leg, you're in the backseat. It's an intuitive defensive mechanism if getting insecure, thus the general problem of every beginner, always, but also advanced riders can revert if faced with unfamiliar scary terrain.
> 
> Backseat is bad cos you block your ability to steer and react.


I see, thanks :smile:


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## cjweaver13 (Dec 10, 2018)

On your toe turn, lift your back heel up even higher than your front...this will twist the board more and make the effective edge seem longer and you'll end up in a balls out style carve and feel like a hero: just be sure not to open up the shoulders when you do it. 

Another fun one is to "drop" into your turns. In a lesson I'll ask people to "put air between the board and the ground". They all jump. I then show the same, but literally fall with my upper body faster than the board. Do this to initiate turns instead of pressuring the nose and initiating a turn that way. Fall onto your next edge in a stacked stance and ride out the edge. 

There's more, but that's a few to play with.


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## Crusty (Nov 8, 2018)

Stay low, stay forward, stay centered. Initiate with your leading shoulder. Keep your upper body quiet.


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## wrathfuldeity (Oct 5, 2007)

Crusty said:


> Stay low, stay forward, stay centered. Initiate with your leading shoulder. Keep your upper body quiet.


ehmm...it depends on your skill level beginner ^ ok

but otherwise at a more advanced level, initiate with leading knee and weighting the nose and get your upper body stacked, aligned and rotating into.


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## wrathfuldeity (Oct 5, 2007)

Snowdaddy said:


> Where's the backseat on a snowboard? I know where it is when skiing...





neni said:


> When you lean on your back leg, you're in the backseat. It's an intuitive defensive mechanism if getting insecure, thus the general problem of every beginner, always, but also advanced riders can revert if faced with unfamiliar scary terrain.
> 
> Backseat is bad cos you block your ability to steer and react.


My ski buds...say keep your hands infront where you can see them and punch your turns. In alot of boarding you want to be in the front seat or neutral position, keeping your weight moving forward into the turn, weight centered on the board in the middle of the turn and on the tail to complete/finish the turn. Similar to punching ski turns...you do a boxer type duck and weave shoulder/upper body movement to accent/coordinate your turns.


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## Snowdaddy (Feb 2, 2018)

cjweaver13 said:


> On your toe turn, lift your back heel up even higher than your front...this will twist the board more and make the effective edge seem longer and you'll end up in a balls out style carve and feel like a hero: just be sure not to open up the shoulders when you do it.


Interesting! I figured this would change your sidecut radius. Like shifting balance on a variable sidecut.


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## cjweaver13 (Dec 10, 2018)

Snowdaddy said:


> Interesting! I figured this would change your sidecut radius. Like shifting balance on a variable sidecut.


It does in a sense. The board also flexes towards the center, especially with a reverse camber, and if you increase tilt and lean angle you pressure the center more and decrease the radius. It's kind of a come to Jesus moment when you do this at 40mph on some form cordorouy.


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## Donutz (May 12, 2010)

What all this apparently random information means is that snowboarding (like any other sport) has layers of complexity. When you're starting out, you try to stay low (as opposed to stiff-legged and standing tall) and 60/40 on the front leg. And that's good enough to get you going. When you're a little better, you start paying attention to things like heel-and-toe torqueing the snowboard, to fore-and-aft weight transfers during things like C-turns, and such. There are even times when the ruddering technique makes sense (but not for turning). As you advance, you'll find you need the more subtle techniques.


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## drblast (Feb 28, 2017)

Advanced techniques:

1. Bring your split to the resort two hours before opening so you can get the first runs before the lift even opens.
2. Ride moguls all the time. You'll get better this way. Don't be a pansy. Ride them switch too, you lazy mf.
3. Ride any condition. You'll get better that way. "It was icy so we came home" is not a thing. Neither is "they shut down the lifts."
4. Grow out your mustache and beard. Drink a Coke first thing and don't be too careful. The Coke will freeze to your facial hair and you'll have a tasty lift-riding snack.
5. If you ride regular, flip your bindings around and ride goofy and vice versa. Think you need advanced techniques? Think again. You haven't mastered the basics going both ways, have you?
6. Get your wife or girlfriend, or both, really into snowboarding. Talk about different camber profiles until she's really sure she needs another board this season too.
7. Split your edibles into two and save the second part for the middle of the day.
8. Buy your gear in August.
9. Spend most of your money on gas, hotels, and passes. Blackcomb is the happiest place on earth unless you can afford a helicopter ride or can speak Japanese.
10. A shitty board that's waxed and tuned board is better than a great board in bad condition.
11. Ride full camber.
12. Ride with a buddy that is smart enough to work an avalanche beacon while drunk.
13. A good thermos will keep your hot chocolate whiskey warm all day.
14. Stop worrying about advanced technique and just ride. Otherwise go buy some telemark skiis.
15. Ride with people who are better than you are and try to keep up.
16. Ride a snowskate for a day and then snowboarding will just be easy mode.


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## chomps1211 (Mar 30, 2011)

drblast said:


> Advanced techniques:
> 
> 1. Bring your split to the resort two hours before opening so you can get the first runs before the lift even opens.
> 2. Ride moguls all the time. You'll get better this way. Don't be a pansy. Ride them switch too, you lazy mf.
> 3. Ride any condition. You'll get better that way. "It was icy so we came home" is not a thing. Neither is "they shut down the lifts."


Nuthin' to fix here....



drblast said:


> 4. Grow out your mustache and beard. Drink a Coke first thing and don't be too careful. The Coke will freeze to your facial hair and you'll have a *nasty* lift-riding snack.


Fixed _that_ for ya!



drblast said:


> 5. If you ride regular, flip your bindings around and ride goofy and vice versa. Think you need advanced techniques? Think again. You haven't mastered the basics going both ways, have you?
> 6. Get your wife or girlfriend, or both, really into snowboarding. *Talk about different camber profiles until she's really sure she needs another BF/Husband this season* too.


...again, fixed that for ya! :laugh:



drblast said:


> 7. Split your edibles into two and save the second part for the middle of the day.
> 8. Buy your gear in August.
> 9. Spend most of your money on gas, hotels, and passes. Blackcomb is the happiest place on earth unless you can afford a helicopter ride or can speak Japanese.
> 10. A shitty board that's waxed and tuned board is better than a great board in bad condition.
> ...


Can't argue wid any of this either. :shrug:



drblast said:


> 13. A good thermos will keep your hot chocolate whiskey warm all day.
> 14. Stop worrying about advanced technique and just ride. Otherwise go buy some telemark skiis.
> 15. Ride with people who are better than you are and try to keep up.
> *16. Ride a snowskate for a day *and then snowboarding will just be easy mode.


Nobody should *ever* ride snowskates! :blink: 


:hairy:


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## drblast (Feb 28, 2017)

chomps1211 said:


> Nobody should *ever* ride snowskates!


I love my snow skate. It brings me back to the early days of snowboarding when the resorts and skiers both hated you, only with snow skates that's never gonna go away.


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## ConcreteVitamin (Aug 3, 2017)

Snowdaddy said:


> I think this a bad way of describing what is happening with the knees. It's more "the back knee leads the back foot". You can be duck stanced and when you bend your knee in the turn it's possible to push the knee into the turn.
> 
> A duck stance rider like Knapton has a very wide and stable stance, but when he leans into his turn his back knee leads before his back foot. Just not all the time.
> 
> ...


I love this video as well. Great riding.

Yes, I don't completely understand what you meant by back knee leading back foot. But I do see that the turns are initiated and maintained by "dropping" back knee throughout. (Back knee bends much more than front knee.)

Am I reading this right? If this is true, *how does one reconcile this with the advice "front knee leading the turn"?*


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## keel_bright (Jan 13, 2013)

You want technical? Here's the CASI Manual - 196 pages of every little detail of how to snowboard

https://issuu.com/casintc/docs/casi_ref_guide_2016_en_web_lores


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## ConcreteVitamin (Aug 3, 2017)

Donutz said:


> What all this apparently random information means is that snowboarding (like any other sport) has layers of complexity. When you're starting out, you try to stay low (as opposed to stiff-legged and standing tall) and 60/40 on the front leg. And that's good enough to get you going. When you're a little better, you start paying attention to things like heel-and-toe torqueing the snowboard, to fore-and-aft weight transfers during things like C-turns, and such. There are even times when the ruddering technique makes sense (but not for turning). As you advance, you'll find you need the more subtle techniques.


Exactly. Problem is most YT tutorials/videos are for beginner only. Hence this thread


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## ConcreteVitamin (Aug 3, 2017)

cjweaver13 said:


> On your toe turn, lift your back heel up even higher than your front...this will twist the board more and make the effective edge seem longer and you'll end up in a balls out style carve and feel like a hero: just be sure not to open up the shoulders when you do it.


Any screengrabs / video showcasing this?


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## Snowdaddy (Feb 2, 2018)

ConcreteVitamin said:


> I love this video as well. Great riding.
> 
> Yes, I don't completely understand what you meant by back knee leading back foot. But I do see that the turns are initiated and maintained by "dropping" back knee throughout. (Back knee bends much more than front knee.)
> 
> Am I reading this right? If this is true, *how does one reconcile this with the advice "front knee leading the turn"?*


It's a case of weight distribution. The knees are leading the feet because of your center mass. It's just the same statement you started out with worded differently.

As I see it, the rider is moving his weight forward and into the turn while still applying pressure on his back foot. By bending the knee like that you have a direct weight distribution going in a straight line through your hip down to your foot. The knees point to each other in the way that if you had two lines shooting out of your knees they would eventually intersect.

You don't have to ride like this but it definitely has advantages when moving your weight around. But don't take my word for it. I'm a beginner snowboarder.

When I ride I focus a lot on visualizing my path and on the way I shift my weight over the sidecut during the turn to both lock in the edge and use different parts of the sidecut.

But in reality my technique is: 
:snowboard4: 
 
:dizzy:
:injured:


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## deagol (Mar 26, 2014)

here is possibly the knees together style someone was talking about??





note: very different style than you see nowadays


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## Crusty (Nov 8, 2018)

wrathfuldeity said:


> ehmm...it depends on your skill level beginner ^ ok
> 
> but otherwise at a more advanced level, initiate with leading knee and weighting the nose and get your upper body stacked, aligned and rotating into.


Agreed with your technique on initiating the board, but if you take it to the extreme, initiating the board first means your body has to catch up (ie counter-rotated, and wasting energy to bring it back in, even if ever so slightly). If you commit your upper body as you initiate your turn you remain centered around your yaw axis- and more efficient in terms of overall body movement required.


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## chomps1211 (Mar 30, 2011)

Crusty said:


> Stay low, stay forward, stay centered. Initiate with your leading shoulder. Keep your upper body quiet.





wrathfuldeity said:


> ehmm...it depends on your skill level beginner ^ ok
> 
> but otherwise at a more advanced level, initiate with leading knee and weighting the nose and get your upper body stacked, aligned and rotating into.





Crusty said:


> Agreed with your technique on initiating the board, but if you take it to the extreme, initiating the board first means your body has to catch up (ie counter-rotated, and wasting energy to bring it back in, even if ever so slightly). If you commit your upper body as you initiate your turn you remain centered around your yaw axis- and more efficient in terms of overall body movement required.


Me,..? I "ride" my snowboard down hills and turn when I need to. :grin:







-edit-
...in other words,
"I ride my board,... I turn my board!" :shrug:
:hairy:


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## Mig Fullbag (Apr 15, 2014)

deagol said:


> here is possibly the knees together style someone was talking about??
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The best and most stylish snowboarder ever. There will never be another one like him.


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## Scalpelman (Dec 5, 2017)

Well, I’ll never get that 5 min of reading back. Good thing I’m half cocked. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Snowdaddy (Feb 2, 2018)

Scalpelman said:


> Well, I’ll never get that 5 min of reading back. Good thing I’m half cocked.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




Now you made me waste another 5 minutes.


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## wrathfuldeity (Oct 5, 2007)

Crusty said:


> Agreed with your technique on initiating the board, but if you take it to the extreme, initiating the board first means your body has to catch up (ie counter-rotated, and wasting energy to bring it back in, even if ever so slightly). If you commit your upper body as you initiate your turn you remain centered around your yaw axis- and more efficient in terms of overall body movement required.


^also agree, its more efficient and quicker generally to keep your body compact around the yaw axis...like pirouettes in ice skating you can spin faster. For years, I had the bad habit to having my trailing arm sticking out as a counter weight ... sort of like a cheetah running around. Having that back arm flailing about really made me retarded in keeping up with the game of Now. Watching the Craig Kelly vid it was interesting in how he was keeping his hands infront and using them to flow his lines.


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## kimchijajonshim (Aug 19, 2007)

If I had to give one tip for most non-noobs snowboarders I see on the mountain, it'd be push the shins forward. A lot of folks are putzing around on blacks in Tahoe "bend their knees" by sticking their asses out and keeping their shins perpendicular to the board. Pushing the shins engages the ankles and really unlocks more dynamic turning and control.


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## Snowdaddy (Feb 2, 2018)

wrathfuldeity said:


> ^also agree, its more efficient and quicker generally to keep your body compact around the yaw axis...like pirouettes in ice skating you can spin faster. For years, I had the bad habit to having my trailing arm sticking out as a counter weight ... sort of like a cheetah running around. Having that back arm flailing about really made me retarded in keeping up with the game of Now. Watching the Craig Kelly vid it was interesting in how he was keeping his hands infront and using them to flow his lines.


Newtonian physics and snowboarding is fun.


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## Scalpelman (Dec 5, 2017)

wrathfuldeity said:


> ^also agree, its more efficient and quicker generally to keep your body compact around the yaw axis...like pirouettes in ice skating you can spin faster. For years, I had the bad habit to having my trailing arm sticking out as a counter weight ... sort of like a cheetah running around. Having that back arm flailing about really made me retarded in keeping up with the game of Now. Watching the Craig Kelly vid it was interesting in how he was keeping his hands infront and using them to flow his lines.




Thanks. What a great observation. I’m going to focus on that. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Snowdaddy (Feb 2, 2018)

Scalpelman said:


> Thanks. What a great observation. I’m going to focus on that.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


In a ballerina pirouette there is also the changing of the moment of inertia to increase the angular velocity in order to keep the angular momentum constant.
They often start their rotation with their arms farther from their body then brings them closer to the centre to increase the spin. Then They extend them to stop the spin.


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## ConcreteVitamin (Aug 3, 2017)

Snowdaddy said:


> In a ballerina pirouette there is also the changing of the moment of inertia to increase the angular velocity in order to keep the angular momentum constant.
> They often start their rotation with their arms farther from their body then brings them closer to the centre to increase the spin. Then They extend them to stop the spin.


Sounds a lot like pumping


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## Rip154 (Sep 23, 2017)

Same thing, different direction. In surfing it has some turning to it as well of course.


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## ConcreteVitamin (Aug 3, 2017)

Found two old (~1997!) but really good technical articles related to some discussed techniques/forms:

https://snowboarding.transworld.net/how-to/heelside-remedy-use-both-feet/
https://snowboarding.transworld.net/how-to/separate-zee-knees-a-whole-new-carving-stance/


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## Rip154 (Sep 23, 2017)

That's the answer to the kneecap thing from surfing you were mentioning I guess. Of course theres a difference from strapped in and bindingless, and both riding styles still work.


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## Ben Delisle (Dec 7, 2018)

May not be the right thread, but I need help with switch to side turns. I ride regular with 12° front 0° back foot. I've tried switching my stance up to 12 -12, 15 -12, and 15-0. I have no trouble with heelside turns riding switch but cant engage too side. Tips?


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## chomps1211 (Mar 30, 2011)

Ben Delisle said:


> May not be the right thread, but I need help with switch to side turns. I ride regular with 12° front 0° back foot. I've tried switching my stance up to 12 -12, 15 -12, and 15-0. I have no trouble with heelside turns riding switch but cant engage too side. Tips?


Bring your knees together. (...start out with your binding angles @ whatever your most comfortable with.) Spread your knees apart for heelside, bring them together for toeside turns. 

This action causes your board to flex torsionally along the long axis and lets you engage the sidecut and contact points effectively. 

This was the tip that got me linking my switch turns. It also helps to use your leading arm & shoulder to _"point"_ your turns. (...it keeps your torso aligned properly while initiating turns)

-edit-
Full disclosure,... I took a lesson specifically for learning switch. Those tips were what the instructor had me doing and allowed me to complete a heel/toe/heel turn transition successfully for the very first time.


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## zc1 (Feb 20, 2017)

Ben Delisle said:


> May not be the right thread, but I need help with switch to side turns. I ride regular with 12° front 0° back foot. I've tried switching my stance up to 12 -12, 15 -12, and 15-0. I have no trouble with heelside turns riding switch but cant engage too side. Tips?


Ride your normal direction on a mellow slope -- the same slope you're using to learn switch riding. Really pay attention to what you're doing and when -- weight shifts, joint movements, pivot, edging and pressuring changes. Really understand when and why you're moving the way you are. Every movement should have a purpose/reason, otherwise it's just a wasted or potentially counterproductive movement. 

Once you have your sequence of events/movements, on that same mellow slope, run through the same sequence of steps riding in your switch direction. You shouldn't need to make any movements that weren't in your original sequence. If you do, chances are that those movements are what is throwing you off. It's easier to learn switch riding if (a) you're a small child and just do it without thinking or (b) you really understand when and why you're doing the things you do to turn and can identify unnecessary/unproductive/counterproductive movements.

Chances are you're trying to engage your toeside edge before you get the board heading down the fall line, because you're uncomfortable and want to rush the process. Shift your weight (to the front foot), let it run straight (i.e. down the fall-line; count one-one thousand, if need be), shift your weight back to neutral (i.e. not leaning uphill towards the tail of the board), then turn your head and look up the hill -- the rest of your body will figure out what to do. You can figure out the footwork later in order to avoid the upper body-steering. A couple of mistakes that people tend to make: (1) leaning uphill (towards the back leg) once the board starts to turn, and (2) trying to engage the toeside edge before the board even gets pointing downhill/down the fall line (trying to rush the turn).


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## Ben Delisle (Dec 7, 2018)

Does it make any diffrence that I'm riding an asymmetrical board? I'm riding a 157(I think) ride helix. It's a bit big for me but I dont have problems throwing it around riding in my regular stance. The side cut does seem to improve the ease of my switch heel side turns. But it always feels like I'm going to fall onto my face trying to initiate a toe side.


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## zc1 (Feb 20, 2017)

Ben Delisle said:


> Does it make any diffrence that I'm riding an asymmetrical board? I'm riding a 157(I think) ride helix. It's a bit big for me but I dont have problems throwing it around riding in my regular stance. The side cut does seem to improve the ease of my switch heel side turns. But it always feels like I'm going to fall onto my face trying to initiate a toe side.


No. The toe edge is still the toe edge and the heel edge is still the heel edge. You're just running the opposite direction. It's a twin with a centred stance and should ride the same both directions. The only thing different is your binding angles. See my post right above yours to see a couple of problems you may be having.


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## kimchijajonshim (Aug 19, 2007)

Ben Delisle said:


> May not be the right thread, but I need help with switch to side turns. I ride regular with 12° front 0° back foot. I've tried switching my stance up to 12 -12, 15 -12, and 15-0. I have no trouble with heelside turns riding switch but cant engage too side. Tips?


Without actually seeing you ride, internet help is less than useless. Get a lesson, watch tutorial videos, ride with people better than you, and/or keep practicing until you stop eating it. 

I was practicing 180s and carves today on a directional board set +27 / +6. Stance tweaks may help, but mostly it takes commitment, reflection, and practice.


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## zc1 (Feb 20, 2017)

kimchijajonshim said:


> Without actually seeing you ride, internet help is less than useless. Get a lesson, watch tutorial videos, ride with people better than you, and/or keep practicing until you stop eating it.
> 
> I was practicing 180s and carves today on a directional board set +27 / +6. Stance tweaks may help, but mostly it takes commitment, reflection, and practice.


Disagree regarding the utility of suggestions without seeing someone ride. Common mistakes are common so suggestions of general approaches and common mistakes/pitfalls are still useful.

It's like saying without seeing your vehicle I can't suggest any possible problems based on the symptoms that you've described. Any mechanic can give you a list of possible causes based on your description of the symptoms, but no, he can't pin down the exact issue. Same goes with instructing.

I do agree that getting help from an instructor in person (i.e. taking a lesson) is definitely better than over the internet, though. You're advanced enough as a rider to be able to reflect on your riding. Not everyone is.


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## SGboarder (Jun 24, 2012)

chomps1211 said:


> Bring your knees together. (...start out with your binding angles @ whatever your most comfortable with.) Spread your knees apart for heelside, bring them together for toeside turns.
> 
> This action causes your board to flex torsionally along the long axis and lets you engage the sidecut and contact points effectively.


How in the world would it do that?


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## Ben Delisle (Dec 7, 2018)

I do know that lessons will be the best way to make this happen. But I do like to hear the opinions of others and try the things suggested. And yes, the board does have a center stance but I did set my bindings back a tad. Not all that much though. Thanks for the tips though everyone!! I'm sure I'll get it in due time. Really just starting to ride switch but I can go anywhere on the mountian riding regular so I figured its time. Plus I'm also getting started in the park.


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## Radialhead (Jan 3, 2018)

SGboarder said:


> How in the world would it do that?


Pushing your knees together lifts the outer edges of your feet, which then pulls up on the nose & tail of the board on the heel edge, & transfers pressure to the toe edge between your feet. It's one of those things that's hard to explain but clear to see if you strap in & try it. It's not something I've seen on tutorials etc, I've just noticed it when messing around trying to decide on binding spacing/angles. I have seen tutorials talk about moving the front knee in for toe-side & out for heel-side, but nothing about both knees.


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## chomps1211 (Mar 30, 2011)

SGboarder said:


> How in the world would it do that?


:facepalm3: Well If you don't know,..?I'm certainly not about to tell you! 


_Go ahead,... _ you know it all! Go ahead & tell me how "Im wrong & it doesn't work". This tip was passed on by a qualified (...and I might ad exceptional) instructor! 

More importantly, *It Works!!!* So _seriously_,.. go ahead and tell I'm wrong, Im listening.... 

*For the OP;*
When I bring my knees together it turns my ankles and the board flexes at the tip & tail. This flexes, arcs & tightens the sidecuts turning radius on the toeside. The same thing happens heelside when I move my knees apart. 

For me this was far more effective than just trying to lean my weight over to engage the edge & initiate a turn. Especially toeside as I didn't have the forward lean on my highbacks helping me leverage the board up on edge like I did heelside. 

For full disclosure,.. this was in my first season, and I wasn't even all that proficient linking turns regular. 

At the time I was riding a full camber, directional, tapered deck, with a 2cm setback stance. So getting it Switch changed the turning characteristics quite a bit for a NooB rider. This technique worked when nothing else I was doing did. 

So, SG can claim all he wants to about how im wrong and this doesn't work! But I couldn't link _one single toeside turn prior to using this technique._ Not one! I crashed & burned every single time.  Now? I ride switch just fine. In all sorts of conditions on all sorts of boards. I also applied this technique to my _regular_ riding to get tighter, more locked in & on edge turns.

Give it a try & Good luck!


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## wrathfuldeity (Oct 5, 2007)

There is also the technique raising or lowering your toes to lock in long carves....idk what thread it was in...but it works...if I can remember what and when to do it.


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## ConcreteVitamin (Aug 3, 2017)

chomps1211 said:


> :facepalm3: Well If you don't know,..?I'm certainly not about to tell you!
> 
> 
> _Go ahead,... _ you know it all! Go ahead & tell me how "Im wrong & it doesn't work". This tip was passed on by a qualified (...and I might ad exceptional) instructor!
> ...


Does this trick work only for bindings angles that are both positive, or does it also work for positive front & negative back?


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## Radialhead (Jan 3, 2018)

ConcreteVitamin said:


> Does this trick work only for bindings angles that are both positive, or does it also work for positive front & negative back?


It works best with positive front & negative back. If they're both positive, pushing your knees together will raise the front foot heel edge & back foot toe edge, thus negating the effect to a certain extent.


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## Snowdaddy (Feb 2, 2018)

wrathfuldeity said:


> There is also the technique raising or lowering your toes to lock in long carves....idk what thread it was in...but it works...if I can remember what and when to do it.


I guess it also depends what kind of sidecut you have. Flexing the board engages different portions of the sidecut, right?


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## chomps1211 (Mar 30, 2011)

ConcreteVitamin said:


> Does this trick work only for bindings angles that are both positive, or does it also work for positive front & negative back?


I ride Ducked. +18°/-12°. I *wouldn't* think it would work well for positive angles. You' need to turn both knees in the opposite directions to see the same sort of flex in the board. 

I'm not even sure that maneuver is possible /w forward angles. Might be awkward and unbalanced. :shrug:

I think ppl who ride with forward angles tend to use their knees in sequence rather than at the same time. Ie. Initiate /w the front foot, finish/drive thru /w the back. :shrug: But that's just a guess on my part. 

I _know_ it works ducked. :grin:


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## drblast (Feb 28, 2017)

Ben Delisle said:


> May not be the right thread, but I need help with switch to side turns. I ride regular with 12° front 0° back foot. I've tried switching my stance up to 12 -12, 15 -12, and 15-0. I have no trouble with heelside turns riding switch but cant engage too side. Tips?


This isn't a technique problem, it's a feel and muscle control problem.

You know how to write, right? Switch hands. Even knowing how to do it, your other hand sucks at it, right? No amount of technique suggestions would help.

Change your bindings so they're you're normal angles but flip them on the board. Then ride "switch" as if you were just starting to learn to snowboard. Don't cheat. It sucks but it's the fastest way to learn.


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## kimchijajonshim (Aug 19, 2007)

zc1 said:


> Disagree regarding the utility of suggestions without seeing someone ride. Common mistakes are common so suggestions of general approaches and common mistakes/pitfalls are still useful.


Respectfully disagree. Giving advice is tough and potentially counter productive without more context and (at the very least) footage. He might be a technically solid rider who has a little hitch that's keeping him from initiating his switch toe turns, or he might be one of the 90+% of riders on the mountain who's counter-rotating and skidding every regular turn down advanced runs. The advice I'm going to give in either situation is going to be very, very different. For the former, I'd break it down pretty similarly to the original response you gave. For the latter, my response would honestly be practice getting regular turns down pat before even thinking about switch.


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## chomps1211 (Mar 30, 2011)

kimchijajonshim said:


> Respectfully disagree. Giving advice is tough and potentially counter productive...
> 
> 
> *...For the latter, my response would honestly be practice getting regular turns down pat before even thinking about switch*.


I heartily disagree on that count! If I had been given that advice I probably wouldn't be riding switch today! 

I was barely proficient riding regular when I took lessons for switch. In fact, it was a problem I was having with my regular turns that let me get more comfortable with the concept of riding the board reversed! 

I was occasionally over turning and spinning around reversed on a few of my turns. I was able to successfully heelside turn myself around back to regular. The result of this, was I didn't _freak out_ at the thought of going switch! I couldn't complete a toeside transition to save my life while switch,... But _I didn't freak out._ 

Eventually I took a lesson, figured out what I was doing wrong, and by the end of my first full season I was riding switch just about as poorly as I was riding regular!!!  :laugh: >


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## kimchijajonshim (Aug 19, 2007)

chomps1211 said:


> I heartily disagree on that count! If I had been given that advice I probably wouldn't be riding switch today!
> 
> I was barely proficient riding regular when I took lessons for switch. In fact, it was a problem I was having with my regular turns that let me get more comfortable with the concept of riding the board reversed!
> 
> ...


All due respect, I'm not really swayed by this anecdote. If you were overturning to the point you even had to worry about riding switch, sounds like you'd have gotten more out of taking lessons to get better at riding regular rather than riding switch. Sound like treating a symptom (learning rudimentary switch to swap back to regular) rather than fixing the underlying issue (not getting switched around in the first place). But I'm glad it worked out for ya!


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## chomps1211 (Mar 30, 2011)

kimchijajonshim said:


> All due respect, I'm not really swayed by this anecdote. If you were overturning to the point you even had to worry about riding switch, sounds like you'd have gotten more out of taking lessons to get better at riding regular rather than riding switch. Sound like treating a symptom (learning rudimentary switch to swap back to regular) rather than fixing the underlying issue (not getting switched around in the first place). But I'm glad it worked out for ya!


I apologize for taking a shortcut with that story,... I _did_ take the lesson specifically to correct the over turning. I Got that sorted out first. 

Then I wanted to try to get switch deliberately. I Couldn't go toeside while switch without eating shit, so I took a lesson for that. 

My point was that I got comfortable with getting reversed very early on. 

Today, I can get down just about any blue run, top to bottom while switch. I can even manage a few carved switch turns as well. (...not a lot but a turn or two.) :shrug:

I know a bunch of riders who are leaps and bounds _far_ better riders than I am who can't do that. 

Many just don't want to revert back to being an uncoordinated noob. So they don't persist. I took care of and got past this while I was _still_ an embarrassingly shitty NooB rider. Back before "ego" or looking good entered into it and just surviving the day on the hill was enough. >


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## Snowdaddy (Feb 2, 2018)

Are you arguing about the same thing?


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## zc1 (Feb 20, 2017)

I think the OP got a lot of good feedback, and we had a good, civil conversation. My suggestion is that we just all go riding.


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## Ben Delisle (Dec 7, 2018)

I would call myself an intermediate-advanced rider, who can ride everything proficiently, except for switch to side turns. My favorite place to be is in the trees, and deep powder. I get bored bombing groomers pretty quickly and want to be able to ride switch without a hiccup to spice the riding up.


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## chomps1211 (Mar 30, 2011)

Ben Delisle said:


> I would call myself an intermediate-advanced rider, who can ride everything proficiently, except for switch to side turns. My favorite place to be is in the trees, and deep powder. I get bored bombing groomers pretty quickly and want to be able to ride switch without a hiccup to spice the riding up.


Then If you really want to get good? You need to practice frequently & consistently. Don't go and get switch for a turn or two & then revert to regular. 

Get yourself a lesson in switch riding and then go do it. 

Believe me,.. it'll be _spicy_ for a while. :lol:


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## younggeorge (Aug 23, 2018)

I have never tried snowboarding till now. Yet to take a step towards this adventurous thing. At least now I know how to start it. Basics is really important.


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