# How Steep is steep?



## larrytbull

Found this from another forum
comparing steepness of ski trails

interesting read about actual angles on steep trails


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## larrytbull

found this link as well
3d Ski Maps with Color Mapped Steepness

they rate the trails by color coresponding to the angle.

I never realized those "steep" trails were such shallow angles :facepalm1:


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## surfinsnow

Suck it, West! Steepest shit is here in Vermont! Oh, wait...I did the 55 chutes at Homewood. That was some crazy steep stuff. I remember being told "just don't try to ride across the lake at the bottom...it's not actually frozen." Fun!


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## vajohn

That is some pretty cool stuff. Here is one of my steepest runs from this season so far. Took an image from the gopro vid. I think this one is called zoot chute and is considered one of the easiest lines of the Lake Chutes at Breck.


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## PlanB

vajohn said:


> That is some pretty cool stuff. Here is one of my steepest runs from this season so far. Took an image from the gopro vid. I think this one is called zoot chute and is considered one of the easiest lines of the Lake Chutes at Breck.


The beginning 30-40 meters of that run is indeed steep; but it looks like it mellows a lot after the initial steep section. If the entire run was like the first 30 meters, well...I don't even think it would be classified as a run - it would just be a sheer cliff face.


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## vajohn

PlanB said:


> The beginning 30-40 meters of that run is indeed steep; but it looks like it mellows a lot after the initial steep section. If the entire run was like the first 30 meters, well...I don't even think it would be classified as a run - it would just be a sheer cliff face.


 My run was over to the right side looking down in the first image I posted, towards the rocks and it stays pretty steep. I think you are talking about that hump straight down on the left side...there are actually rocks below there from what I remember, so you would not want to take that line. It looks like I am stopped taking a pic, but I am dropping in there and it was about 5' drop or better. You can see it from this image...it is the widest line over there and you can see the rocks below the hump from this perspective. I guess maybe some people would consider it more of a cliff face than a 'run' like you said. It was definitely one of the highlights of my trip being able to ride those chutes because that area has not been open much when I have been out at Breck. This image below is taken from the highest elevation chairlift in North America.


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## Motogp990

Copy and pasted from the article 
_"Ski areas are notorious for making claims. They exaggerate almost as much as skiers. In fact, the ski area spokesman's propensity to enhance and embellish the treachery of a steep trail is second only to those of us who ski them."_

haha, I find that pretty true, for me anyways.

The steepest chute I ever rode was Hawaii 5-0 at Blackcomb (beside Couloir extreme, for the people that know Whistler). Not sure the angle of slope, however it seemed pretty fn steep to me.

I've told my friends I went down/rode that (you can point at it from one of the lifts).

After dropping in, I pretty much just slid/skid down the beginning part on my heels, until it opened up a bit. I definitely didn't have the skills to pay the bills.

So, technically did I go down, yes. Did I ride it haha, well I guess that's up for interpretation.


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## Deacon

Steep is... if you fall and can't stop your descent.


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## vajohn

Deacon said:


> Steep is... if you fall and can't stop your descent.


There were a couple people sitting where I wanted to drop into the chute that time...it was much less of a drop where they were sitting (this was my second time hiking up there that day and had already scouted the line). I watched them go down when I was at the bottom and one of them slid maybe several hundred yards...so they definitely could not stop. They were lucky they tried to follow my line and did not fall over those rocks. They were clearly way over their heads and never should have been up there.


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## SkullAndXbones

tuckerman's ravine in new hampshire is pretty insane. i heard somewhere that it's 55 or 60 degrees.


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## Deacon

vajohn said:


> There were a couple people sitting where I wanted to drop into the chute that time...it was much less of a drop where they were sitting (this was my second time hiking up there that day and had already scouted the line). I watched them go down when I was at the bottom and one of them slid maybe several hundred yards...so they definitely could not stop. They were lucky they tried to follow my line and did not fall over those rocks. They were clearly way over their heads and never should have been up there.


I had an experience like that a couple years ago, where it was so steep and narrow i knew I shouldn't have been up there. I did the climb of shame down. Last year i smoked that sucka!:hairy:


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## vajohn

Deacon said:


> I had an experience like that a couple years ago, where it was so steep and narrow i knew I shouldn't have been up there. I did the climb of shame down. Last year i smoked that sucka!:hairy:


Nice!

I guess I made it look too easy, so they decided to go for it. They should have done the climb of shame. I was scared for them.


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## vajohn

SkullAndXbones said:


> tuckerman's ravine in new hampshire is pretty insane. i heard somewhere that it's 55 or 60 degrees.


That looks awesome. I want to go up there sometime. I will be living up in New England for a while soon and will be going up to NH and VT as much as I can before the snow melts and then again next season.


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## stillz

This mountain has redefined steep for me a number of times. Steepest sustained pitch I've been on is probably Big Couloir. Depending on conditions, it's around 47-50 degrees before the dog leg, which is a bit less than halfway down. It can be pretty technical in the early season, but gets a lot more manageable as it collects snow.


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## slyder

HOW the hell do you even ride that


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## Deacon

slyder said:


> HOW the hell do you even ride that


Side to side. :hairy:


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## f00bar

Quite a few studies have been done to show that people are terrible at determining the steepness of slopes and mountains. Often off by 20-30 degrees.

It's called the ponzo illusion. You see how your brain determines you to see it and it turns out that it's not very good at this, or perhaps theres a good reason for it to do things as it does, especially at a distance, then add a white background to that and you can see how things can go amok. It's an optical illusion that becomes better defined as you get closer.


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## wrathfuldeity

slyder said:


> HOW the hell do you even ride that


Wait for a good day...soft with good vis (key tip), just shoot it and hang on (2nd tip...don't sub the nose). For me how you ride steepness somewhat depends on the runout. If you got a big smooth runout...let it rip. If you got hazzards or other terrain...like narrowness it becomes more of a perceptual thing. Like if riding a chute...you shorten your vision to say 100-150 feet in front of you...but being mindful of where the terrain hazzard are so that you can negotiate them.


The first couple times, do a couple of turns, then point it. As you get some experience...just point sooner. Its a rush...and your mind is going wtf...but just hold on and ride it out.


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## Jcb890

Well, I've got something to strive for I guess! Kudos to you guys on those runs.

Great photos too!


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## elstinky

Deacon said:


> Steep is... if you fall and can't stop your descent.


ugh, happened on one of the first black slopes I ever rode. Messed up a turn and somehow I was suddenly sliding down the hill on my back, head first. I'm not often scared but then I was. Sort of like a vicous circle: fear -> paralysis -> going faster without even seeing where the heck I was going -> more fear -> more paralysis. Even after I got my shit together it took me a while to slow down because it's not exactly easy to brake when your board drags behind you on a rather icy slope. Not really waiting for that to ever happen again..


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## chomps1211

f00bar said:


> Quite a few studies have been done to show that *people are terrible at determining the steepness of slopes and mountains.* Often off by 20-30 degrees.
> 
> It's called the ponzo illusion. You see how your brain determines you to see it and it turns out that it's not very good at this….
> 
> ….add a white background to that and you can see how things can go amok.* It's an optical illusion that becomes better defined as you get closer.*


….sounds a little like the way your brain deceives you on a rappel drop or high dive. From the bottom looking up,..? "Aww! That ain't so bad!" From up top looking down,..?  WTF!! :laugh: Your eyes shorten the height by six ft. from the bottom, and then add 6ft at the top! :laugh:




wrathfuldeity said:


> Wait for a good day...soft with good vis (key tip), just shoot it and hang on….
> 
> *….The first couple times, do a couple of turns, then point it. As you get some experience...just point sooner.* Its a rush...and your mind is going wtf...but just hold on and ride it out.


Having never done anything really, _truly_ steep, I wanted to ask this question,…! Would you say part of the problem for most people is that on *really* steep terrain, staying "Out of the Back Seat" is _very_ much harder because of how really far forward you have to be leaning to stay stacked and evenly positioned over your board? 

Here's my thinking on this,.. if properly stacked over the board? Turning to adjust and control speed is easier and more natural on a steep slope, than it would be if you were afraid, leaning back and riding hard on that back leg. :dunno: 

I am trying to picture all this in my head and imagine myself trying to turn on a steep run when I am all back seat? It would seem like I would have to jump pretty high, and awkwardly try to lift and swing that back foot to huck that board around and make any turns! So as soon as I would point the board down the fall line and rapidly pick up speed? I would need to perform a lot of clumsy acrobatics to go from edge to edge trying to turn and control or scrub speed. :blink: 

Whereas,.. if I were confidant? If I was comfortable and leaning far enough forward down that scary, steep assed slope so I remained balanced and properly stacked over the board? Going edge to edge,.. although probably happening _very_ fast! Is likely to "feel" easier, more natural? I picture it requiring far less effort or awkward jumping and twisting of the body to accomplish?

Is my thinking "On point" in this regard? I'm just curious of course! This will remain just an intellectual exercise for me for anytime in the foreseeable future.  :hairy:


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## Deacon

Chomps, that was my exact problem. It's hard mentally, at first, to kind of throw yourself over that front leg.

*edit: I had a similar problem at Bohemia this year riding between icy 36"-42" deep moguls. I ended up doing falling leaf waaaay more than I wanted to. I'd start cussing myself out and get it pointed and make a couple turns and then end up back in a leaf pattern. 100% psychological.


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## wrathfuldeity

elstinky said:


> ugh, happened on one of the first black slopes I ever rode. Messed up a turn and somehow I was suddenly sliding down the hill on my back, head first. I'm not often scared but then I was. Sort of like a vicous circle: fear -> paralysis -> going faster without even seeing where the heck I was going -> more fear -> more paralysis. Even after I got my shit together it took me a while to slow down because it's not exactly easy to brake when your board drags behind you on a rather icy slope. Not really waiting for that to ever happen again..


riding steeps....being able to arrest your slide is one of the skills/wits you got to develop if ur going to ride steeps. And if you get in over your head...one of the worst things is to do, is the walk of shame. If you are walking with board in hand and you fall and perhaps lose the board...you have nothing to stop you from sliding....except deep pow rocks and trees. 

I've turtled countless times on steeps...the trick is to do everything to get the board below/downhill of your body....either flip over like doing a back flip...or start dragging your hands and let your lower body swing around your upper body. With the board downhill of you then you have a chance to get an edge to slow down or stop.


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## surfinsnow

A friend of mine makes Tuckerman's an annual pilgrimage. They drive all the way up there, spend half the day hiking up the mountain for one or two runs. It's really cool because now his kids go with him. He says it not just the heart-stopping drop, but the whole party scene at the base, as you can see in the photos posted. I've done some steep drops at Kirkwood and Squaw, but I'm not sure I'd be willing to man-up for Tuckermans. Hat's off to anyone with the cajones to drop into that shit!


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## wrathfuldeity

Chomps...kind of depends and yes and no. Depends on the steepness and snow conditions...the killer is that you don't want to sub the nose and go over the handle bars. So its about balance and quick movement fore/aft thing...in general ur riding more in the back seat and shooting your weight/body in the direction that you want to go...and moving the board under you...instead of moving your body/weight over the board.

but let me think about this more....it happens all so quickly


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## vajohn

When I mentioned that they should have done the walk of shame on those chutes I posted, I meant they should have hiked the ridge back over to the boot pack trail and try to go back down that way. There is just no way you should even attempt to walk down that chute. It may look soft on the pic, but it was very firm that day. If you look on the color coded map, the lake chutes are all yellow to white color, which is pretty extreme...but it depends on how the snow builds on there.

You need to build your skills and work your way up to something like that. 

-Years ago, I would get that feeling like I was going over the handle bars on steeper terrain with the shorter twin boards I was riding at the time...that is when I started riding really long boards. I never get that feeling on my custom x 168, which is what I was riding those chutes on. I also typically ride that board set back from ref stance a little too...at least the back foot--I still ride slightly gorilla which has stuck with me from my younger days when I was more of a freestyle guy.


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## slyder

all good info I don't see this in my future in any form what-so-ever....
but still all good knowledge to stack into the "old brain" 

Plus since all I have is all mountain short boards, again I don't see this type of terrain in my future. 

I was with Deacon riding my most extreme steep of my life, small in many of your standards. After the initial GRASP OF FEAR released me we had a good time. 
At those angles things happen fast and go wrong even faster. Had a blast and want to go again. 

Side Note: Deacon did way better than what he is portraying....


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## wrathfuldeity

just sayin...there are conditions where steeps should not be ridden...and to do so would be suicidal. If there are doubts...don't do it. Steeps are about confidence...in your judgement. There are steeps at the hill I love...but have not ridden the lines for a couple of years because the conditions were not good for my retarded skill level....There is no shame in taking a look and deciding to save your self from disaster.


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## pescadero

larrytbull said:


> Found this from another forum
> comparing steepness of ski trails
> 
> interesting read about actual angles on steep trails



I've only ridden a few on there - Pallavacini, Riva Ridge, and Palmer.



chomps1211 said:


> Having never done anything really, _truly_ steep, I wanted to ask this question,…! Would you say part of the problem for most people is that on *really* steep terrain, staying "Out of the Back Seat" is _very_ much harder because of how really far forward you have to be leaning to stay stacked and evenly positioned over your board?





wrathfuldeity said:


> Chomps...kind of depends and yes and no. Depends on the steepness and snow conditions...the killer is that you don't want to sub the nose and go over the handle bars.


Bingo.

It's hard not to stay too far back - but you also have to be real careful if the snow is soft/has any depth to not bury the nose. 

A lot of it is about confidence in going fast on somewhat dodgy snow conditions - a lot of times you just have to shoot it and hang on... which is why the runout matters.


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## destroy

Runout is key for sure. So many times you come ripping down a steep from a bowl or whatever and the transition isn't smooth for one reason or another and it's hard to suck it up and rip through.

The conditions are the other thing like wrath said. Nothing like taking those few slow, sharp turns until you're ready, then just sending it straight down. This usually goes best when it's soft and there's some fluff so you just flow. If you're not ready, it needs to be smooth so you don't just unexpectedly hit a change in the surface or something underneath that you couldn't see or feel coming until it's too late and it's already bucked you and you can't correct. The speed and rush is something. You just literally don't turn and ride down with a little bit of a flying feeling. You're glued to the surface but you feel like you could take off at the same time.


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## CassMT

steeps, oh yeah


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## wrathfuldeity

chomps1211 said:


> ….
> 
> Here's my thinking on this,.. if properly stacked over the board? Turning to adjust and control speed is easier and more natural on a steep slope, than it would be if you were afraid, leaning back and riding hard on that back leg. :dunno:
> 
> I am trying to picture all this in my head and imagine myself trying to turn on a steep run when I am all back seat? It would seem like I would have to jump pretty high, and awkwardly try to lift and swing that back foot to huck that board around and make any turns! So as soon as I would point the board down the fall line and rapidly pick up speed? I would need to perform a lot of clumsy acrobatics to go from edge to edge trying to turn and control or scrub speed. :blink:
> 
> Whereas,.. if I were confidant? If I was comfortable and leaning far enough forward down that scary, steep assed slope so I remained balanced and properly stacked over the board? Going edge to edge,.. although probably happening _very_ fast! Is likely to "feel" easier, more natural? I picture it requiring far less effort or awkward jumping and twisting of the body to accomplish?
> 
> Is my thinking "On point" in this regard? I'm just curious of course! This will remain just an intellectual exercise for me for anytime in the foreseeable future.  :hairy:





wrathfuldeity said:


> Chomps...kind of depends and yes and no. Depends on the steepness and snow conditions...the killer is that you don't want to sub the nose and go over the handle bars. So its about balance and quick movement fore/aft thing...in general ur riding more in the back seat and shooting your weight/body in the direction that you want to go...and moving the board under you...instead of moving your body/weight over the board.
> 
> but let me think about this more....it happens all so quickly


k thought more...so ur flying down the steeps...you got to be stacked, able to move the board under you. But you are also somewhat in a neutral position with legs ready to absorb .... anything and everything. Because ur flying...you use more subtle precise movements and if your are turning/carving it is a deliberate committed move...cause if you get twitchy...it has a exponential effect...that usually results in instantaneous and disastrous effects. So your mind has to be steely and flowy...cause if it goes twitchy and ur trying to respond to on-coming terrain imperfections...your brain and body don't react fast enough. It like "the force is with you" being in a flow state where you are allowing the "chi" to pull you along...so you can't buck the "chi" with your little mind...cause your little mind will fuck you up. 

So before you drop a line...ya got to have it scoped, knowing about where and what turns to do to avoid hazards. Then calm your mind, take a few deep breaths and drop the motherfucker. And if the bottom drops out or an unanticipated launch...you got to have your witts not to get twitchy....but keep it netural, compact and suck up your knees, hang on, let your legs absorb the landing. Having good vis or knowing exactly the line is important to avoid any big surprises.


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## SkullAndXbones

i've personally never ridden anything that steep but i kind of want to. we just don't have that kind of terrain here. the steepest i've done was a double black but that was when i was just starting to ride so i heel edged the whole thing lol. unfortunately, that double black trail is never open so i haven't had the opportunity to ride it again in the last 14 years lol. so i have to stick with riding regular blacks.


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## timmytard

Deacon said:


> Steep is... if you fall and can't stop your descent.


Like this.

Of course the camera kills any steepness.

But it's steep.

You can kinda tell by the way my carve is at the 7 second point in the vid.

Had to swing it all the way around 180, straight back into the snow on edge again.

There's no lights here this isn't open @ night.

my tail just nicked one of those branches, but it put me outa balance when I landed.

Apparently, my wolverine claws, aren't as sharp as Travis Rices? 

Cause I wasn't slowin' down @ all.

http://vimeo.com/


TT


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## timmytard

wrathfuldeity said:


> Chomps...kind of depends and yes and no. Depends on the steepness and snow conditions...the killer is that you don't want to sub the nose and go over the handle bars. So its about balance and quick movement fore/aft thing...in general ur riding more in the back seat and shooting your weight/body in the direction that you want to go...and moving the board under you...instead of moving your body/weight over the board.
> 
> but let me think about this more....it happens all so quickly


Couple weeks ago at Whistler, I was rippin' down a really steep section of untouched powder.

I cranked a quick heelside carve & it shot me out nose heavy.

Exiting the carve I got air, & I could feel myself leaning forward.

I thought i was a gonner.

The speed I was going, I would have done ten cartwheels, in a spectacular yardsale.

Instantly before I was back on the snow my heart was already going a million miles n hour.

Scared the shit out of myself for a second.


TT


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## Jcb890

timmytard said:


> Like this.
> 
> Of course the camera kills any steepness.
> 
> But it's steep.
> 
> You can kinda tell by the way my carve is at the 7 second point in the vid.
> 
> Had to swing it all the way around 180, straight back into the snow on edge again.
> 
> There's no lights here this isn't open @ night.
> 
> my tail just nicked one of those branches, but it put me outa balance when I landed.
> 
> Apparently, my wolverine claws, aren't as sharp as Travis Rices?
> 
> Cause I wasn't slowin' down @ all.
> 
> http://vimeo.com/
> 
> 
> TT


That looks awfully dangerous at night with little visibility. No thanks!


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## jtdad13

My palms are sweaty just reading this thread! I'll stick to blues so i wont be ♿


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## CassMT

steep is when your heart is in your throat

steep is when you better know how to tune your shit, and have done it the night before

steep is when that ipod comes off

steep is when you can touch the hill just sticking your arm out

steep is when you better hit the line you chose or ...it's gonna be bad

steep is when you want a witness, either to the glory, or the carnage

steep = stash, forget i said that

steep is when a make is memorable , some for many years

...


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## wrathfuldeity

^ yup...just to add

steep is when you are standing there scoping the line...and there is a little voice is telling to "back away you frick'n r'tard...you gonna die."


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## neni

wrathfuldeity said:


> steep is when you are standing there scoping the line...and there is a little voice is telling to "back away you frick'n r'tard...you gonna die."


Lol, big +1! (my little voice adds a long drawn-out "Fu....uck!")
...and then you throw yourself into that line and it's heaven


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## ThredJack

When I shit my pants looking down, it's too steep.


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## sabatoa

Timely. I've been reading a lot about steeps lately and doing my best to prepare in MI for Liberty Bowl at Big Sky.


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## chomps1211

CassMT said:


> *….steep is when you want a witness, either to the glory, or the carnage...*


Absolutely _LOVE_ that!!! Perfect description!


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## snowklinger

you know its steep when you are done hiking and finally putting edges under you is a sense of relief/safety.


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## booron

Just to break from all the, um, poetics, I'd say 45* and over... Of course that seemed like almost 90* before the advent of pocketable GPS... Actually when your standing up there I suppose it still does.....


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## ItchEtrigR

steep is when your not allowed to fall.


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## neni

booron said:


> Just to break from all the, um, poetics, I'd say 45* and over... Of course that seemed like almost 90* before the advent of pocketable GPS... Actually when your standing up there I suppose it still does.....


True. Had times when I was getting out the school set square, and stared... puzzled and amazed how innocent 45° look in theory while on top of a run, it looked bloody vertical. 
I'm not too bad at estimating angles up to abt 35°. After that, I tend to overestimate.

Just to show, how misguidig gut estimation can be... according to Ski Tracks, that run was 37°. My gut had a different opinion 









And this one just 40°. My gut said vertical.









Been into 45 and 50° as well - gut said "now this is _really_ vertical! Back off!" and then turned silent when the butterflies took over . More is not in my range.


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## Argo

I have had my legs start shaking on a traverse coming out to a run to drop in on. Usually my body tells me automatically when it's steep, that goes away as soon as I drop off into the run.... I have become a lot more conservative this year in how far I will push myself. I do baby steps now instead of leaps.....


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## Argo

I'd also much rather cruise down a 35 degree slope covered in a few feet of powder making wide open turns than any 50+ degree slope in any condition ....


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## timmytard

wrathfuldeity said:


> ^ yup...just to add
> 
> steep is when you are standing there scoping the line...and there is a little voice is telling to "back away you frick'n r'tard...you gonna die."


Haha my little retard doesn't say anything until I'm already in the midst of it.

Then I hear the little fucker say "What have you done?" 
No joke, I hear him.

Although I overpowered him the last time I was at Whistler. Turned out to be a bad call though. D'oh


I ended up following some unknown dudes at Whistler as far as we could get, then they all stopped & started ripping their boards apart to ascend this ridge line.

I was standing, overlooking this huge valley, like a mile wide, with not a single track in the whole thing.

But.... The chair at the bottom wasn't open, it should be opening, but when?

I stood trhere for at least ten min, walking up to the edge, gawking in amazement. The whole fuckin' valley, not a singkle track in the whole, anywhere.

Timmy was frothing, so was I, but timmy has won these decisions before & yeah, sometimes they don't work out so well.

I didn't do it, I had to hike back up the cat track.

A little while later I met back up with this crazy russian skier guy, who knew the mtn super well. Ended back at the same spot, that had now been chewed to shit.

Well, not chewed to shit, but it didn't look near as nice as the shit I walked away from.


Moral of the story.......

Listen to your inner retard, just just roll with it.


TT


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## deagol

I did a run called Wackey Tim's Chute in the Lake Chutes at Breck last year

I found a write-up online about it:

_"Eastern most Lake Chute (known as Wacky Tim's)

Okay this little bugger has a few teeth. The chute starts off a cornice fairly tight and at 50-55 degrees. The chute navigates back and forth between rock bands at 50-55 degrees for most of the path, and continues meandering between rocks at the 45 to 50 degree range of slope. In this regard, I'd rate this a Double Black D10 or D11 with an R2 rating, as well. This chute does have consequences, as exposed rock bands lower in the chute need to be negotiated or jumped. Also some care is needed to avoid hitting exposed rock or rock and ice. Down lower in the chute, If the rock band is jumped consider 20-25ft of air before landing in the curving snowfilled basin below heading in direction of the frozen lake. Also, hidden rock below snow can make picking a landing somewhat precarious. However, compared to the First or Second Notches at the North Pole, this run is relatively short and sweet. "_

Extreme Chutes 'in bounds'

I did a run below "The Billboard" at Silverton this year that *might* have been steeper?? There was also one at Crested Butte North Face (can't remember the name) that was in a similar range... one of these 3 was easily the steepest run I have ever done.. my mind is telling me Silverton was the steepest.


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## ARSENALFAN

Have rode Delirium Dive a couple times this year. The entry into this had my knees shaking. Its worse when there is no pow. When that is the case, there is a no fall zone for sure. Lots of fun.


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## ARSENALFAN

Here is another one......


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## timmytard

ARSENALFAN said:


> Have rode Delirium Dive a couple times this year. The entry into this had my knees shaking. Its worse when there is no pow. When that is the case, there is a no fall zone for sure. Lots of fun.


That doesn't even look steep though, mius the cliff.

But that looks like it may be too big?
Hard to tell.


TT


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## ARSENALFAN

Yeah. What you see it the top 1/2 of the run. It looks crazy from the very top and from the very bottom. I agree the above pics don't do it justice. I snagged the second photo below from the internet.


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## timmytard

These are steep


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## timmytard

These are rideable @ Mt Baker


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## linvillegorge

"Steep" is up to the individual. If it's steep to you, then it's steep.

Xavier de Le Rue and Jeremy Jones would get a nice chuckle out of terrain I would consider steep and terrain I consider fairly routine would have a beginner shitting his pants. It's all relative.


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## timmytard

This one, I would do switch, on my twin. haha


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## ThredJack

linvillegorge said:


> "Steep" is up to the individual. If it's steep to you, then it's steep.
> 
> Xavier de Le Rue and Jeremy Jones would get a nice chuckle out of terrain I would consider steep and terrain I consider fairly routine would have a beginner shitting his pants. It's all relative.


As a beginner, I agree. I've seen a couple posts about our mtns in the Poconos being "hills." I can't say I agree at this time, because they all seem steep to me.:eyetwitch2:


----------



## Jcb890

neni said:


> True. Had times when I was getting out the school set square, and stared... puzzled and amazed how innocent 45° look in theory while on top of a run, it looked bloody vertical.
> I'm not too bad at estimating angles up to abt 35°. After that, I tend to overestimate.
> 
> Just to show, how misguidig gut estimation can be... according to Ski Tracks, that run was 37°. My gut had a different opinion
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And this one just 40°. My gut said vertical.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Been into 45 and 50° as well - gut said "now this is _really_ vertical! Back off!" and then turned silent when the butterflies took over . More is not in my range.


Holy fuckballs those pictures are steep!


----------



## Jcb890

timmytard said:


> These are rideable @ Mt Baker


Tough to see from the 2 pictures you posted, but they look almost vertical from that side view. Pretty wild.


----------



## sabatoa

That is some ass puckering steep.


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## sabatoa

Look at the rocks at the bottom, with only that little gap of safety. That's a no-fall zone in my book.


----------



## wrathfuldeity

sabatoa said:


> Look at the rocks at the bottom, with only that little gap of safety. That's a no-fall zone in my book.


Its just an illusion...that bottom gap...slightly to lookers right... is big enough to put a semi truck with trailer sideways through...no problem

The link below, go to pic 11... its Mike Ranquet about to point it down Gunsight, a chute at Mt. Baker, 1997...I'd like to try it sometime...but I shit my pants just thinking about it...no turns....and its all about the runout...assuming you got the steelie balls just to point it between the walls for about 200-300 feet to a med-hard left to and opens up.

http://www.methodmag.com/content/art-snowboard-photography-chris-brunkhart


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## Psi-Man

This is going up the lip at Tuckermans last April, definitely the most challenging terrain the East has to offer. This is close to 50 degrees and varies depending on snowpack. I recently did Ripcord at Mt Snow after about 10 inches of snow and it was great. That trail is supposedly 38 degrees, but feels nothing like this.


----------



## deagol

Gopro footage with the fisheye effect always seems to flatten out steepness. 
this is some sloppy riding down wind packed snow on Wacky Tim's FWIW. 
The description I posted above put the range in 45-55 degree range.


----------



## wrathfuldeity

deagol said:


> this is some sloppy riding down wind packed snow on Wacky Tim's FWIW.
> The description I posted above put the range in 45-55 degree range.


nicely done billygoat'n between the sharks...no shame in that.


----------



## Jcb890

wrathfuldeity said:


> Its just an illusion...that bottom gap...slightly to lookers right... is big enough to put a semi truck with trailer sideways through...no problem
> 
> The link below, go to pic 11... its Mike Ranquet about to point it down Gunsight, a chute at Mt. Baker, 1997...I'd like to try it sometime...but I shit my pants just thinking about it...no turns....and its all about the runout...assuming you got the steelie balls just to point it between the walls for about 200-300 feet to a med-hard left to and opens up.
> 
> The Art of Snowboard Photography: Chris Brunkhart | Methodmag.com


So no carving or slowing down at all? That would freak me out.



Psi-Man said:


> This is going up the lip at Tuckermans last April, definitely the most challenging terrain the East has to offer. This is close to 50 degrees and varies depending on snowpack. I recently did Ripcord at Mt Snow after about 10 inches of snow and it was great. That trail is supposedly 38 degrees, but feels nothing like this.



Wow! I did not know Tuckerman's was that steep. Did you/do you use hiking gear to get to the top where those guys are hiking up on the right side there? Do you see any boarders doing Tuckerman's or just skiers?

That guy on the left - did he fall or is that how he's going down the slope?

I would be open to doing Ripcord, but it is full of moguls. Steep I can do, but moguls I suck at and steep + moguls, no thanks.


----------



## Jcb890

deagol said:


> Gopro footage with the fisheye effect always seems to flatten out steepness.
> this is some sloppy riding down wind packed snow on Wacky Tim's FWIW.
> The description I posted above put the range in 45-55 degree range.


That looks like a fun run!


----------



## deagol

I realized afterward, and especially at Silverton, that I had issues with my stance that really affected me on runs like that- too far set back, too much positive angles on the feet. I am gonna try to find footage of the slot there that I think (but am not sure) was steeper than Breck. I had the same problem there and was on a demo board, so the whole thing didn’t “flow” right. I seem to remember being on toeside and being able to easily reach out and touch the wall. Was a cool feeling. 
Neni: your pics are awesome, looks like a sweet run.

RE Tuckerman's: looks like that guy is sliding down unintentionally ?? I would want to have an ice axe for something like that. I have never ridden with one, but just picked up a Black Diamond Whippet that I need to get familiar with for spring couloir season. Has anyone here ever ridden with an ice axe or Whippet before?


----------



## Jcb890

deagol said:


> *I realized afterward, and especially at Silverton, that I had issues with my stance that really affected me on runs like that- too far set back, too much positive angles on the feet*. I am gonna try to find footage of the slot there that I think (but am not sure) was steeper than Breck. I had the same problem there and was on a demo board, so the whole thing didn’t “flow” right. I seem to remember being on toeside and being able to easily reach out and touch the wall. Was a cool feeling.
> Neni: your pics are awesome, looks like a sweet run.


Care to explain some more/elaborate more? What stance? What angles? Why was it too much? I am curious.


----------



## Psi-Man

Jcb890 said:


> So no carving or slowing down at all? That would freak me out.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wow! I did not know Tuckerman's was that steep. Did you/do you use hiking gear to get to the top where those guys are hiking up on the right side there? Do you see any boarders doing Tuckerman's or just skiers?
> 
> That guy on the left - did he fall or is that how he's going down the slope?
> 
> I would be open to doing Ripcord, but it is full of moguls. Steep I can do, but moguls I suck at and steep + moguls, no thanks.


Some guys use cramp-ons, but if it's that icy I usually call it quits. In the spring when the snow is soft you can get your footing. This is one of the preferred boot pack lines going up, and as you can see there are plenty foot holds leading up. The snowboard comes in handy as a climbing tool and climbing in snowboard boots is a huge advantage over skiers IMO. When you get to the top of the lip you can go up and right toward the peak or traverse out left along the top of the bowl and drop in at various points. I head for the peak usually. It's mostly skiers, the same ratio typically I see at the resorts.

Yea, he caught an edge and slid down the bowl, but recovered nicely at the bottom. The ones who go down head first are the worst.

Well, I will admit that doing steep moguls on my old big cambered F1 was a lot harder than my newer rockered F1. It actually makes moguls fun (if they are soft).


----------



## deagol

Jcb890 said:


> Care to explain some more/elaborate more? What stance? What angles? Why was it too much? I am curious.


I had my stance set all the way back on the inserts and when I was on steep stuff, the nose of the board was too long so it felt like it "had leverage" on me. It was like a see-saw, where the fulcrum was my front foot, so going on heelside especially, I did not have enough tail to balance out the huge nose and the g-forces would push me to where I would lose my heelside edge near the tail and the edge forward of my front foot was so long it had "too much" grip.. if that makes sense. 

It was annoying because my back foot would end up being below the nose of my board on steep heelsides especially. This would also happen on toeside but not quite as bad.. 

The forward angles were like 30 front and 23 back, which work well for carving but also make the heeliside tricky. It affects how much leverage you can put on the edge and makes it harder to stay on one edge when it is steep. .it's hard to explain, but I have since backed off and it's better.


----------



## speedjason

I know this is not steep but its pretty funny.
This is actually the extended version I saw someone posted. He fell off the rock and kept on going.
One of be bindings broke.
How NOT to Ride a Couloir: Snowboarder Slides Head First Through Chute in Slovakia | Onboard Magazine


----------



## deagol

I am guessing that vid shows the flattening effect from the Gorpro, since it must be a lot steeper than it looks, judging by the speed and acceleration that the rider had when falling... hard to say for sure, though.

One thing I noticed, the first rider he passed is just sliding down on one edge, scraping the snow, the second rider did at least make one turn. It is a lot harder to try to actually make turns on these things than just slide down on an edge... it's also better for the snow, as you don't scrape it down to ice.


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## wrathfuldeity

Jcb890 said:


> Care to explain some more/elaborate more? What stance? What angles? Why was it too much? I am curious.


when you have to billygoat...i.e., jumping from toe edge to heel edge or via-verse and you really want good edge hold. So a more centered stance gives more even hold and is a bit easier to swing around. Also having less angle gives more leverage when you are driving your knees or butt in to get a hold. imho its about having alot of control and limiting risks...if your set up is not dialed in for control....you are at a dis-advantage...and especially when required to billygoat...cause on these types of steeps...if you loose it you might be shit out of luck.


----------



## wrathfuldeity

speedjason said:


> I know this is not steep but its pretty funny.
> This is actually the extended version I saw someone posted. He fell off the rock and kept on going.
> One of be bindings broke.
> How NOT to Ride a Couloir: Snowboarder Slides Head First Through Chute in Slovakia | Onboard Magazine


ditto...funny and the fucker was lucky he didn't get his guts ripped open over that last rock. Ladies and gents...when this happens...do everything to get the board back downhill of your body...because then you have a chance to get an edge in and self-arrest. The guy had plenty of opportunity to get his board swung around but he just continued to belly/body surf :facepalm1:. Notice that he did stop when his board got down hill. Btw if you turtle head first...the easy thing to do...is to go with it and raise your board up and just flip over (a back flip move) and hopefully you can then dig in a toeside edge without starting to backflip/tomahawk further.


----------



## deagol

deagol said:


> ..... Has anyone here ever ridden with an ice axe or Whippet before?



thought I would re-ask the question, based on the above post, seems relevant.


----------



## wrathfuldeity

deagol said:


> I have never ridden with one, but just picked up a Black Diamond Whippet that I need to get familiar with for spring couloir season. Has anyone here ever ridden with an ice axe or Whippet before?


Another thing you can do is use your avy shovel...(k2 or bca) but instead of sliding the handle shaft in to the top of the blade to make a shovel...slide the handle shaft in from the bottom and then you can dig/lean into it...to help with a self-arrest. Btw put a loop of webbing so you can put your hand through it so you are less likely to lose it.


----------



## CassMT

damn i need to hit some new terrrain

...when there's snow


----------



## Jcb890

speedjason said:


> I know this is not steep but its pretty funny.
> This is actually the extended version I saw someone posted. He fell off the rock and kept on going.
> One of be bindings broke.
> How NOT to Ride a Couloir: Snowboarder Slides Head First Through Chute in Slovakia | Onboard Magazine


That looks horrible. It is one thing losing it and sliding down a normal groomed trail that may be icy. It is another thing to lose it and slide down a trail where there's rocks sticking out of places.


----------



## deagol

wrathfuldeity said:


> Another thing you can do is use your avy shovel...(k2 or bca) but instead of sliding the handle shaft in to the top of the blade to make a shovel...slide the handle shaft in from the bottom and then you can dig/lean into it...to help with a self-arrest. Btw put a loop of webbing so you can put your hand through it so you are less likely to lose it.


I have the BCA avy shovel, but it's in a zip pocket in the pack... with a Whippet, I should always have it close at hand, but need to practice with it in a safe situation... will be more of a corn season tool than a pow season tool. I also need to figure a safe way to rig it to the pack so the pick does not end up stabbing me... I have some initial ideas, but nothing finalized yet. My winter pack strangely does not have ice axe loops.


----------



## Psi-Man

speedjason said:


> I know this is not steep but its pretty funny.
> This is actually the extended version I saw someone posted. He fell off the rock and kept on going.
> One of be bindings broke.
> How NOT to Ride a Couloir: Snowboarder Slides Head First Through Chute in Slovakia | Onboard Magazine


He's lucky he was not on his back going down head first like that otherwise I think the outcome would have been different.


----------



## linvillegorge

Man, that's a scary video. In the backcountry, avalanches get top billing for the #1 concern, but inbounds, sliding uncontrollably down some serious terrain is probably the #1 fear for me. Like has been said, you gotta fight with everything you've got to get that board pointed downhill. The last thing you want to be doing is sliding uncontrollably down serious terrain head first. Yikes.


----------



## Jcb890

deagol said:


> I had my stance set all the way back on the inserts and when I was on steep stuff, the nose of the board was too long so it felt like it "had leverage" on me. It was like a see-saw, where the fulcrum was my front foot, so going on heelside especially, I did not have enough tail to balance out the huge nose and the g-forces would push me to where I would lose my heelside edge near the tail and the edge forward of my front foot was so long it had "too much" grip.. if that makes sense.
> 
> It was annoying because my back foot would end up being below the nose of my board on steep heelsides especially. This would also happen on toeside but not quite as bad..
> 
> The forward angles were like 30 front and 23 back, which work well for carving but also make the heeliside tricky. It affects how much leverage you can put on the edge and makes it harder to stay on one edge when it is steep. .it's hard to explain, but I have since backed off and it's better.


Ah, I see what you mean. So what stance are you riding now which is better for control and steeper terrain? Any changes in stance width or do you just have a standard width you always use to ride?



wrathfuldeity said:


> when you have to billygoat...i.e., jumping from toe edge to heel edge or via-verse and you really want good edge hold. So a more centered stance gives more even hold and is a bit easier to swing around. Also having less angle gives more leverage when you are driving your knees or butt in to get a hold. imho its about having alot of control and limiting risks...if your set up is not dialed in for control....you are at a dis-advantage...and especially when required to billygoat...cause on these types of steeps...if you loose it you might be shit out of luck.


Thanks to you as well for the added details.

:thumbsup:


----------



## deagol

Jcb890 said:


> Ah, I see what you mean. So what stance are you riding now which is better for control and steeper terrain? Any changes in stance width or do you just have a standard width you always use to ride?


This is all a little complicated as I used a new stance on 3 Never Summer Boards I borrowed from them for 1.5 months and just got my old one back and am re-mounting it. So, it may not be a perfect direct comparison but...
I moved the bindings forward 2 notches from the rear-most stance option. My stance width is right about 56 CM and I have not changed this on every board. On my Raptor, I am leaving the front foot at +30 (for now) but have backed the rear foot off to +15. I will see how it goes and may tweak it some more in the future. On the borrowed Ripsaw, I think I went shallower than those angles, maybe +23 and + 9 or something like that? On the Chairman, which may be the best comparison for the Raptor, I was at 30/15, so this may be a good compromise. I know a lot of people ride duck nowadays, but I didn't like it when I tried it... YMMV

Edit: Wrathfuldiety's explanation is better and more concise than mine...


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## cookiedog

Steepness to me depends on what's under my board. Fresh west pow= fuck it you can afford a fall. East cost ice+steep = possible trip to ER


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## linvillegorge

cookiedog said:


> Steepness to me depends on what's under my board. Fresh west pow= fuck it you can afford a fall. East cost ice+steep = possible trip to ER


This is also very true.


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## Jcb890

deagol said:


> not going down yet, but what you have to go up to get to it..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> looking down at the face, the steepest part is in that rock slot below slightly to right of center..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dropping in
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> in the chute
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> almost down (could easily touch wall here)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> looking back up from here


None of those photos work for me.


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## Jcb890

deagol said:


> strange, they don't work at the office for me, but I could see them from my home PC when I uploaded them..


I'm at work now, so I wonder if that same issue is occurring here. Odd.


----------



## neni

Jcb890 said:


> None of those photos work for me.


Here neither


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## CassMT

yeh, no images, maybe it doesn't like internal links...


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## deagol

*OK, this is really weird. I am back home checking from my home PC and I can see the pics just fine. I will reload them in a new post as attachments and hope that works... I deleted the original post and the other ones about the pic problem...
*



what you have to go up to get to it..









looking down at the face, the steepest part is in that rock slot below slightly to right of center..









in the chute









almost down (could easily touch wall here)









looking back up from here


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## Manicmouse

Make a free imgur account and upload your photos there. They then give you easy links to paste into forums like this.

I use it for photos I don't care who sees.


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## neni

Now it worked . Sweet chute! Looks pretty narrow! I wouldn’t have the nerves :eyetwitch2:


----------



## KIRKRIDER

Kirkwood. The Wall in all its glory. Exceptional snow.


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## timmytard

KIRKRIDER said:


> Kirkwood. The Wall in all its glory. Exceptional snow.


Damn, just damn


TT


----------



## KIRKRIDER

timmytard said:


> Damn, just damn
> 
> 
> TT


Saw it like that once... after a 5 day storm. You had to raise your knees to your chest to GET OFF THE CHAIR ;-) 
Was unreal.:hairy:


----------



## gixxerdk

https://vimeo.com/95322091&server=vimeo.com&show_title=0&show_byline=0&show_portrait=0&color=&fullscreen=1&autoplay=0&loop=0" />https://vimeo.com/95322091&server=vimeo.com&show_title=0&show_byline=0&show_portrait=0&color=&fullscreen=1&autoplay=0&loop=0" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" allowscriptaccess="always" width="640" height="385">

I fail at embeding but check this out
https://vimeo.com/95322091


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## Noreaster

View attachment 64914


Valtho, 3 weeks ago. The part with natural chute between two outcrops was steep enough to fly over.


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## Jcb890

deagol got it to work.
gixxerdk did not.


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## chomps1211

neni said:


> Now it worked . Sweet chute! Looks pretty narrow! I wouldn’t have the nerves :eyetwitch2:


:blink: Idk,..? After those steep pics you posted? I'm thinking you've got plenty of nerve!  Now _me,..? _ I'm thinking I would need the "Depends" CassMt recommended for me in the skivvies PSA thread!  (...and that would be for just standing at the top and looking down!!) :rofl4:


----------



## neni

sabatoa said:


> Look at the rocks at the bottom, with only that little gap of safety. That's a no-fall zone in my book.


Naw, that gap was pretty wide, 3-4m, just looks narrow cos the chute makes a little bend to the right


----------



## ItchEtrigR

neni said:


>


This is just an awesome moment in time right here!


----------



## deagol

found some neat maps shaded by slope angle:









Silverton









Tuckerman's Ravine


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## neni

Interesting read on the "how to ride steeps" topic: http://www.tetongravity.com/story/snowboard/chamonix-backcountry-guide-mcnabb-gives-technical-snowboarding-tips


----------



## wrathfuldeity

neni said:


> Interesting read on the "how to ride steeps" topic: http://www.tetongravity.com/story/snowboard/chamonix-backcountry-guide-mcnabb-gives-technical-snowboarding-tips


Thanks...very helpful...and most certianly believe its about line choice.


----------



## Seppuccu

speedjason said:


> I know this is not steep but its pretty funny.
> This is actually the extended version I saw someone posted. He fell off the rock and kept on going.
> One of be bindings broke.
> How NOT to Ride a Couloir: Snowboarder Slides Head First Through Chute in Slovakia | Onboard Magazine


I'm a little late, but that sure cracked me up. The best part may be how he screamed "WHORE!" in Slovakian at the end. 

I agree that steep is relative to experience, terrain, depth and consistency of snow, but perhaps above all what's below. The latter might be the deciding factor for me. Mind you I've never ridden anything above 39°.

Cool with those maps, it's a pity the Trois Vallées (which are 4, not 3) map has such low resolution because it'd be interesting to see how steep some of those section I rode in Val Thorens and Meribel that we rode in class were. I clearly remember shouting "Are you fucking kidding me?!" on one occasion.  Would also be fun to go back and compare how I feel about them in the future.

This February in Nozawa Onsen I went down the Challenger course which is up to 38° and labeled "red", without serious problems. I also tried going down the Hachiman course three times; it's not as steep but labeled black. Got my ass kicked every time. The difference? Moguls. :happy:


----------



## deagol

I had a recent scary slide on a slope that was listed as 46-50 degrees on the map. I lost my heelside edge and took off like a bullet down the slope. If I didn't have an ice axe, I probably would not be posting this right now. The Gopro always flattens out the steepness visually but here it is:

http://www.snowboardingforum.com/ba...s/177257-silverton-splitfest.html#post2264818


----------



## Jcb890

neni said:


> Interesting read on the "how to ride steeps" topic: http://www.tetongravity.com/story/snowboard/chamonix-backcountry-guide-mcnabb-gives-technical-snowboarding-tips


Interesting, thanks for posting! I'm taking a look at it now.


----------



## neni

neni said:


> Just to show, how misguidig gut estimation can be... according to Ski Tracks, that run was 37°. My gut had a different opinion
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And this one just 40°. My gut said vertical.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Been into 45 and 50° as well - gut said "now this is _really_ vertical! Back off!" and then turned silent when the butterflies took over . More is not in my range.


Little correction to the last sentence after the recent trip: 50-55° in deep pow are pure fun!!! it all depends on snow conditions . While those pics in the post above were of comparable low angle, they were very challenging to ride cos the snow was crap. Part slush part hardpack part ice, changing every odd meter... arrrr! 

Now this time, the runs were considerably steeper than those ^^^, but with a 5ft dump of fresh, they were almost (comparably) easy to ride, had no feaking-out-back-off-almost-ruined-my-pants moments there, just pure joy vvv.










So... if you want callenge yourself and get into a new level of steepness - select a day with good conditions first. You'll enjoy it way more.


----------



## deagol

it's hard to imagine powder snow sticking to a face that steep...


----------



## Jcb890

neni said:


> Little correction to the last sentence after the recent trip: 50-55° in deep pow are pure fun!!! it all depends on snow conditions . While those pics in the post above were of comparable low angle, they were very challenging to ride cos the snow was crap. Part slush part hardpack part ice, changing every odd meter... arrrr!
> 
> Now this time, the runs were considerably steeper than those ^^^, but with a 5ft dump of fresh, they were almost (comparably) easy to ride, had no feaking-out-back-off-almost-ruined-my-pants moments there, just pure joy vvv.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So... if you want callenge yourself and get into a new level of steepness - select a day with good conditions first. You'll enjoy it way more.



Wow, that looks amazing. Where is that and when was it? Very jealous!


----------



## neni

deagol said:


> it's hard to imagine powder snow sticking to a face that steep...


Yeah... AK snow is a special breed  but the stories are true, it _really_ sticks to the mtns. Firm and soft at the same time :jumping1:

I don't have riding pics from the steep parts, as no one stops to take pics in the steeps... but the snow on that run had the same roostertail texture as here











Jcb890 said:


> Wow, that looks amazing. Where is that and when was it? Very jealous!


Chugach Range in Alaska, two weeks ago. Can't wait to go there again... That snow, those mtns... they're addictive! More impressions: http://www.snowboardingforum.com/alaska/176514-alaska-heli-trip-15-a.html


----------



## Oldman

Just read the TGR article. Very technical information written in a way that one can understand and relate to. Especially the discussion about why one skids on heel turns.

Excellent article. I highly recommend it to all.

Too bad I now have to wait 8 months to try any of it out.


----------



## Extazy

neni said:


> Yeah... AK snow is a special breed  but the stories are true, it _really_ sticks to the mtns. Firm and soft at the same time :jumping1:
> 
> I don't have riding pics from the steep parts, as no one stops to take pics in the steeps... but the snow on that run had the same roostertail texture as here
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Chugach Range in Alaska, two weeks ago. Can't wait to go there again... That snow, those mtns... they're addictive! More impressions: http://www.snowboardingforum.com/alaska/176514-alaska-heli-trip-15-a.html


Hey Neni Can you tell me what service did you use with helicopters? And If you had a guide his/her name?

I work for the company that does ski trips and our 1st Alaska Trip was horrible due terrible guy we contacted who was supposed to be our guide.


----------



## neni

Extazy said:


> Hey Neni Can you tell me what service did you use with helicopters? And If you had a guide his/her name?
> 
> I work for the company that does ski trips and our 1st Alaska Trip was horrible due terrible guy we contacted who was supposed to be our guide.


PM sent. But...beware with too high expectations ... as great as they do a job for guiding... nobody can guarantee for the snow conditions or weather. We've haven't been lucky with the snow the first time (still had a blast ).


----------



## Seppuccu

Oldman said:


> Just read the TGR article. Very technical information written in a way that one can understand and relate to. Especially the discussion about why one skids on heel turns.
> 
> Excellent article. I highly recommend it to all.
> 
> Too bad I now have to wait 8 months to try any of it out.


Agreed. Need to bookmark this.


----------



## joebloggs13

I did Tukerman ravine on skis. Steepest I have ever done....by a long shot. I have done Green Beret at Jay and Spanky's ladder at Whistler. Still doesn't come close to Tuckerman's. ?


----------



## timmytard

joebloggs13 said:


> I did Tukerman ravine on skis. Steepest I have ever done....by a long shot. I have done Green Beret at Jay and Spanky's ladder at Whistler. Still doesn't come close to Tuckerman's. ?


In general, Whistler ain't that steep

There are steep spots on it, but it's fuckin' massive.

The runs are looooong.

My local mtn has way steeper & has much, much gnarlier terrain.

It's just not very big, compared to Whistler.

But it's packed tightly into one "Danger Permanently Closed" area.

Which nobody goes into, because, well it's just fuckin' nasty in there.

Powder lasts about a week longer than anywhere else on the mtn.

It's so dark & nasty in there.

It's like my very own area,:hairy: I can't get anyone to come in there with me.

Seriously

This is my first day back after blowing out my knee.
Last day of the season, I couldn't really walk yet & the groomed runs were way to bumpy I couldn't do it it hurt way too much.

But in here where nobody had been, still deep & fluffy.

Didn't require the use of my knee for in here.

https://vimeo.com/

TT


----------



## timmytard

neni said:


> Little correction to the last sentence after the recent trip: 50-55° in deep pow are pure fun!!! it all depends on snow conditions . While those pics in the post above were of comparable low angle, they were very challenging to ride cos the snow was crap. Part slush part hardpack part ice, changing every odd meter... arrrr!
> 
> Now this time, the runs were considerably steeper than those ^^^, but with a 5ft dump of fresh, they were almost (comparably) easy to ride, had no feaking-out-back-off-almost-ruined-my-pants moments there, just pure joy vvv.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So... if you want callenge yourself and get into a new level of steepness - select a day with good conditions first. You'll enjoy it way more.


Exactly, haha, the area I like @ my home mtn.

Most of the time, you can't go in there

If it's not powder, it's ice.

If it's ice, you'll die.:eyetwitch2:

Any one single fall, you won't be able to stop & if you can't right yourself almost instantly.

You are now on the "Price is Right"

You are the PLINKO chip.

Except all the slots at the bottom read dead, not Dollar amounts.


TT


----------



## timmytard

Found a steep one


TT


----------



## SkullAndXbones

timmytard said:


> Found a steep one
> 
> 
> TT


a solid blue


----------



## timmytard

SkullAndXbones said:


> a Canadian blue


There you go, fixed that for ya.


TT


----------



## snowklinger

is that a LaBatt's?


----------



## kosmoz

Interesting, how steep it is in real, 78% is like 38 degrees. Will find it out in january. Don't know steeper preparde runs in europe.

https://youtu.be/j45CEQ-yxbo


----------



## neni

kosmoz said:


> Interesting, how steep it is in real, 78% is like 38 degrees. Will find it out in january. Don't know steeper preparde runs in europe.
> 
> https://youtu.be/j45CEQ-yxbo


That's the 3rd steepest prepared groomer in Europe. Two steeper ones exist; the steepest has 46°; you may know the names from ski races: Manni Pranger and Hahnenkamm Die steilsten Pisten der Alpen: Tiefschwarz und nur für Schwindelfreie! - Skiinfo


Haha, the vid was funny! The run actually looks like fun to ride, well groomed. 
Vid shows nicely how fast one gets after falling, even tho the slope does not _look_ very steep. I had one fall in in pow in comparable steep terrain... was a nice wide runout, I was just about to point it and let the board run, not really attentive, relaxed legs... hit something beneath the snow and in a split second later, I tomahawked three rotations till the deep snow swallowed the momentum. Pretty odd (read scary) experience :laugh:. Was a good lesson to _always_ be prepared, even if a snow cover _looks_ perfectly innocently smooth 

Vid also shows that such runs always attract ppl to try their luck where they actually have no business to be there. The one steep black run in our resort _would_ be fun as well, but as it's full of ppl sideslipping and yard saling, one can only ride it safely after first lift in the morning.


----------



## Seppuccu

neni said:


> That's the 3rd steepest prepared groomer in Europe. Two steeper ones exist; the steepest has 46°; you may know the names from ski races: Manni Pranger and Hahnenkamm Die steilsten Pisten der Alpen: Tiefschwarz und nur für Schwindelfreie! - Skiinfo


So...slope 75 in Trysil, Norway is the second steepest (44°)?


----------



## deagol

timmytard said:


> There you go, fixed that for ya.
> 
> 
> TT


is it true that in Canada, the runs are so steep that the black slopes are actually overhanging??


----------



## Jcb890

neni said:


> That's the 3rd steepest prepared groomer in Europe. Two steeper ones exist; the steepest has 46°; you may know the names from ski races: Manni Pranger and Hahnenkamm Die steilsten Pisten der Alpen: Tiefschwarz und nur für Schwindelfreie! - Skiinfo
> 
> 
> Haha, the vid was funny! The run actually looks like fun to ride, well groomed.
> Vid shows nicely how fast one gets after falling, even tho the slope does not _look_ very steep. I had one fall in in pow in comparable steep terrain... was a nice wide runout, I was just about to point it and let the board run, not really attentive, relaxed legs... hit something beneath the snow and in a split second later, I tomahawked three rotations till the deep snow swallowed the momentum. Pretty odd (read scary) experience :laugh:. Was a good lesson to _always_ be prepared, even if a snow cover _looks_ perfectly innocently smooth
> 
> Vid also shows that such runs always attract ppl to try their luck where they actually have no business to be there. The one steep black run in our resort _would_ be fun as well, but as it's full of ppl sideslipping and yard saling, one can only ride it safely after first lift in the morning.


That's lift-serviced?! HOLY SHIT!!!


----------



## SnowDogWax

joebloggs13 said:


> I did Tukerman ravine on skis. Steepest I have ever done....by a long shot. I have done Green Beret at Jay and Spanky's ladder at Whistler. Still doesn't come close to Tuckerman's. ?


Jay for east coast is super.. Tukerman is way past my thinking :facepalm3:






http://www.amazon.com/dp/B012BS1AXO


----------



## neni

Jcb890 said:


> That's lift-serviced?! HOLY SHIT!!!


there are even steeper lift accessible runs, like Le Mur Suisse with up to 50°, but they are not groomed, i.e. you enter a _real_ steep and long mogul hell

















Believe me, you don’t want to take those lifts. If it's steep and long and ungroomed, don't go there.
I don't get scared by moguls. Usually. Usually they are just short passages in some spots. Usually... When we've been in Zermatt the first time, innocently exploring the resort, at some point we ended up on Stockhorn. Only 1 run leaves from there. A ungrooned endless mogul hell. Not at all as steep as Le Mur, but loooong... It was agony, an _endless_ torture. Haha, it didn't help that I had the 158 Flagship under my feet :laugh:.


----------



## Jcb890

neni said:


> there are even steeper lift accessible runs, like Le Mur Suisse with up to 50°, but they are not groomed, i.e. you enter a _real_ steep and long mogul hell
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Believe me, you don’t want to take those lifts. If it's steep and long and ungroomed, don't go there.
> I don't get scared by moguls. Usually. Usually they are just short passages in some spots. Usually... When we've been in Zermatt the first time, innocently exploring the resort, at some point we ended up on Stockhorn. Only 1 run leaves from there. A ungrooned endless mogul hell. Not at all as steep as Le Mur, but loooong... It was agony, an _endless_ torture. Haha, it didn't help that I had the 158 Flagship under my feet :laugh:.


I'll do moguls if I'm forced, but don't enjoy them. Those 2 you posted above just look awful and very challenging.


----------



## deagol

that does look really steep !


----------



## speedjason

neni said:


> there are even steeper lift accessible runs, like Le Mur Suisse with up to 50°, but they are not groomed, i.e. you enter a _real_ steep and long mogul hell
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Believe me, you don’t want to take those lifts. If it's steep and long and ungroomed, don't go there.
> I don't get scared by moguls. Usually. Usually they are just short passages in some spots. Usually... When we've been in Zermatt the first time, innocently exploring the resort, at some point we ended up on Stockhorn. Only 1 run leaves from there. A ungrooned endless mogul hell. Not at all as steep as Le Mur, but loooong... It was agony, an _endless_ torture. Haha, it didn't help that I had the 158 Flagship under my feet :laugh:.


That looks sick.


----------



## d2cycles

Surely someone other than me enjoys riding moguls on a snowboard. I don't like them much in the spring when it is icy in the morning, but even then I try to search them out as the day goes on...steep and moguly...good times. Fluffy moguls...complete awesomeness!


----------



## F1EA

deagol said:


> is it true that in Canada, the runs are so steep that the black slopes are actually overhanging??


Excuse me, gotta go feed my pet bear.



neni said:


> there are even steeper lift accessible runs, like Le Mur Suisse with up to 50°, but they are not groomed, i.e. you enter a _real_ steep and long mogul hell
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Believe me, you don’t want to take those lifts. If it's steep and long and ungroomed, don't go there.
> I don't get scared by moguls. Usually. Usually they are just short passages in some spots. Usually... When we've been in Zermatt the first time, innocently exploring the resort, at some point we ended up on Stockhorn. Only 1 run leaves from there. A ungrooned endless mogul hell. Not at all as steep as Le Mur, but loooong... It was agony, an _endless_ torture. Haha, it didn't help that I had the 158 Flagship under my feet :laugh:.


Looks like the Whistler Peak chair. 
Also same thing happens... fresh dump days it's ok for a couple of hours. Any other time it's a minefield.


----------



## Psi-Man

d2cycles said:


> Surely someone other than me enjoys riding moguls on a snowboard. I don't like them much in the spring when it is icy in the morning, but even then I try to search them out as the day goes on...steep and moguly...good times. Fluffy moguls...complete awesomeness!


After chasing skiers for years I got pretty good at them. With the CRC board, it makes it much easier and less tiring. If they are soft, I agree, they can be a lot of fun.


----------



## SnowDogWax

d2cycles said:


> Surely someone other than me enjoys riding moguls on a snowboard. I don't like them much in the spring when it is icy in the morning, but even then I try to search them out as the day goes on...steep and moguly...good times. Fluffy moguls...complete awesomeness!


Yes... Moguls just makes you a better snowboarder:hairy:



Amazon.com : SnowDog Super "Slip Fusion" All Temperature Ski and Snowboard Wax, 4 oz : Sports & Outdoors


----------



## SkullAndXbones

you guys need to know that a lot of times measurements of how steep a trail is are taken by the vertical drop from the start of the trail to the end of it. it can be misleading because a lot of times the steepest part is somewhere between the start of the trail and the end of it. so if a trail starts flatter and or flattens out near the bottom it'll bring down the amount of degrees that is calculated for that trail.


----------



## SkullAndXbones

i'd say this is pretty steep


----------



## deagol

agreed :excl:

but wait, is that a skier !!??!!


----------



## timmytard

SkullAndXbones said:


> i'd say this is pretty steep


That is exactly what the beginning of the Supernatuaral course looked like.

There wasn't enough snow yet to fill everything in yet, you could still see the wood platforms.

Haha, I swear, it looked just like that, except with a flat woodedn floor at the bottom of the first drop.

Splat.


TT


----------



## Matty_B_Bop

neni said:


> there are even steeper lift accessible runs, like Le Mur Suisse with up to 50°, but they are not groomed, i.e. you enter a _real_ steep and long mogul hell
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Believe me, you don’t want to take those lifts. If it's steep and long and ungroomed, don't go there.
> I don't get scared by moguls. Usually. Usually they are just short passages in some spots. Usually... When we've been in Zermatt the first time, innocently exploring the resort, at some point we ended up on Stockhorn. Only 1 run leaves from there. A ungrooned endless mogul hell. Not at all as steep as Le Mur, but loooong... It was agony, an _endless_ torture. Haha, it didn't help that I had the 158 Flagship under my feet :laugh:.


this looks fun as hell and right up my alley. 

I really wanna ride with TimmyT. For real.


----------



## timmytard

Matty_B_Bop said:


> this looks fun as hell and right up my alley.
> 
> I really wanna ride with TimmyT. For real.


Well come on up, you'll have a blast.


[ame]https://vimeo.com/149061779[/ame]

We got some steeps.


TT


----------



## Mig Fullbag

SkullAndXbones said:


> i'd say this is pretty steep


Yeeeeah... I think that pic has to be rotated to the right by at least 15° to get closer to reality. Just check the horizon in the background. Still steep though!


----------



## mojo maestro

SkullAndXbones said:


>


Longest ski poles ever?


----------



## surfinsnow

SkullAndXbones said:


> you guys need to know that a lot of times measurements of how steep a trail is are taken by the vertical drop from the start of the trail to the end of it. it can be misleading because a lot of times the steepest part is somewhere between the start of the trail and the end of it. so if a trail starts flatter and or flattens out near the bottom it'll bring down the amount of degrees that is calculated for that trail.


I remember my first trip to Alpine Meadows. The big open bowl in the middle is a blue runs, so what the hell? Let's do it. But once at the top, at least when we were there, the drop-in was like a 10-15' cliff, straight down. Once you made the drop it was wide open heaven, but it took a few minutes to figure out how I was going to dive in.

But then we had Kirkwood, and even 53-degree drop at Homewood, and Alpine Meadows seemed like a cakewalk by comparison.

This pic is of lil' old Homewood. That drop is pretty damned fun!


----------



## Matty_B_Bop

timmytard said:


> Well come on up, you'll have a blast.
> 
> 
> https://vimeo.com/149061779
> 
> We got some steeps.
> 
> 
> TT


I was in Whistler last season. Looked for you but never saw ya. 

Unfortunately, I wasn't spoiled with good snow like this season. 

Heading to Revvy and Big White this season.


----------



## freshy

The cliff at Big White, probably the steepest I can remember doing. First time I ever hit it I was not ready and ended up pointing it straight down unable to turn, so at some point halfway down I thought just wipe yourself out before you get any faster you idiot. Boom instant garage sale.
Another memorable time was my first run on the first day on a new board, nailed it that time. Ski patrol opened it up right when me and my buddy got off the t-bar and I couldn't resist. The shit we do for first tracks.


----------



## freshy

Matty_B_Bop said:


> I was in Whistler last season. Looked for you but never saw ya.
> 
> Unfortunately, I wasn't spoiled with good snow like this season.
> 
> Heading to Revvy and Big White this season.


Hey Matty hit me up when your riding Revy!


----------



## Matty_B_Bop

freshy said:


> Matty_B_Bop said:
> 
> 
> 
> I was in Whistler last season. Looked for you but never saw ya.
> 
> Unfortunately, I wasn't spoiled with good snow like this season.
> 
> Heading to Revvy and Big White this season.
> 
> 
> 
> Hey Matty hit me up when your riding Revy!
Click to expand...

Will do! 

Looking at early March. Will you be around?


----------



## freshy

Matty_B_Bop said:


> Will do!
> 
> Looking at early March. Will you be around?


Yeah as far as I know. Just PM me or something.


----------



## timmytard

freshy said:


> The cliff at Big White, probably the steepest I can remember doing. First time I ever hit it I was not ready and ended up pointing it straight down unable to turn, so at some point halfway down I thought just wipe yourself out before you get any faster you idiot. Boom instant garage sale.
> Another memorable time was my first run on the first day on a new board, nailed it that time. Ski patrol opened it up right when me and my buddy got off the t-bar and I couldn't resist. The shit we do for first tracks.


Is that out of bounds? I had always heard, for years & years how awesome Big White was.
Finally got to go there after hearing all this shit, I was pumped.

It was flat as fuck, I was totally disappointed & bewildered.
Nobody said shit about this mystery crater.


Damn it looks sweet


TT

I see the chairlift now wtf


----------



## freshy

Yup in bounds, there is even a nice little cornice on the left of that in bounds stuff...And there is a lot of similar untouched terrain if you go a little OB. If you were to ride down that ridge line (called the saddle) and keep hiking up to the right where you see it start to go back up you'll end up at the top of East peak. That one is pretty safe as you will connect to the same cat track that the cliff empties into. 
Then there is also the backside of Gem Lake and Falcon chair you can kind of make out on the left of the peak there. You can find a big fucking cornice that's like 3 times the size of the in bounds one there and more fresh steep and deep bowls that transition into sweet glades. But don't try that side without someone who knows where to go it's easy to miss the trail out and then your fucked, like seriously fucked, like prepare to camp out and hope you find the highway and don't die kind of fucked.


----------



## MVC

kosmoz said:


> Interesting, how steep it is in real, 78% is like 38 degrees. Will find it out in january. Don't know steeper preparde runs in europe.
> 
> https://youtu.be/j45CEQ-yxbo


If you go down Harakiri on a good day (fresh prepared slope/snow) and it hasn't been trashed, it's fairly ok. 
If you go down when its super icy (cause its always a bit icy there) and busted up (by skidders), you are in for one technical battle between you and the slope.

The biggest danger on the harakiri are other people, I took one nasty fall here because some idiot (who had no place being on that slope) bombed me for behind. It was such an impact my helmet was cracked. :angry:


----------



## F1EA

Matty_B_Bop said:


> I was in Whistler last season. Looked for you but never saw ya.
> 
> Unfortunately, I wasn't spoiled with good snow like this season.
> 
> Heading to Revvy and Big White this season.


Well if the season keeps as it's going, we could do a day at Cypress before heading out into the BC interior. We can go down TTs Rabbit Hole 

This is how the locals woke up yesterday:









When its like that, Cypress is pretty fun.


----------



## F1EA

freshy said:


> The cliff at Big White, probably the steepest I can remember doing. First time I ever hit it I was not ready and ended up pointing it straight down unable to turn, so at some point halfway down I thought just wipe yourself out before you get any faster you idiot. Boom instant garage sale.
> Another memorable time was my first run on the first day on a new board, nailed it that time. Ski patrol opened it up right when me and my buddy got off the t-bar and I couldn't resist. The shit we do for first tracks.


Beauty!!!!


----------



## Matty_B_Bop

freshy said:


> Yeah as far as I know. Just PM me or something.


Will do!



F1EA said:


> Well if the season keeps as it's going, we could do a day at Cypress before heading out into the BC interior. We can go down TTs Rabbit Hole
> 
> This is how the locals woke up yesterday:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When its like that, Cypress is pretty fun.


You know I'm down with Cypress as well. It'll still be 100x better than anything I have near me.


----------



## SnowDogWax

Matty_B_Bop said:


> Will do!
> 
> 
> 
> You know I'm down with Cypress as well. It'll still be 100x better than anything I have near me.


Anything Cypress has to include TT 





:snowboard3:


----------



## timmytard

F1EA said:


> Well if the season keeps as it's going, we could do a day at Cypress before heading out into the BC interior. We can go down TTs Rabbit Hole
> 
> This is how the locals woke up yesterday:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When its like that, Cypress is pretty fun.


Almost describes it to a tee.

This is a fairly steep area haha


The other clip was too short, you couldn't see anything.
So here's a longer one, of a little bit of a cave, half way down a waterfall

[ame]https://vimeo.com/149982738[/ame]


TT


----------



## speedjason

Just found this video online.
Steep and icy.


----------



## SnowDogWax

Video is crazy:crazy2:


----------



## snowklinger

that pair of pants must be ruined from the inside and outside


----------



## speedjason

snowklinger said:


> that pair of pants must be ruined from the inside and outside


On the other hand, no freezing butt.


----------



## timmytard

That doesn't even look close to steep.

It's just smooth that's why buddy is hauling ass.


TT


----------



## WasabiCanuck

That shit was pretty funny. I'm glad he seemed ok. If that net didn't stop him, he would have kept sliding forever. Haha


----------



## snowklinger

timmytard said:


> That doesn't even look close to steep.
> 
> It's just smooth that's why buddy is hauling ass.
> 
> 
> TT


not everyone ollies into the gnar like u mister yolo


----------



## deagol

jeezuz, that's like 3 times as long as the longest slide I have ever seen. That guy is super lucky he didn't slam into one of those towers...


----------



## deagol

here is an older vid I found (Edit: this is my own video) of falling down a steep chute where an ice ax (Black Diamond Whippet) saved the day.. 
Gopo's always flatten things out, but I looked this spot up on Caltopo gradient tool and it says it's about 45 degrees +/-


----------



## Argo

deagol said:


> jeezuz, that's like 3 times as long as the longest slide I have ever seen. That guy is super lucky he didn't slam into one of those towers...


Some of those euro groomers boggled my mind. I have not been that fast and asspuckered before hitting their icey walls of death.


----------



## dave785

deagol said:


> here is an older vid I found of falling down a steep chute where an ice ax (Black Diamond Whippet) saved the day..
> Gopo's always flatten things out, but I looked this spot up on Caltopo gradient tool and it says it's about 45 degrees +/-


Look at his shadow before he falls. So this guy is riding around while holding a fricken ice axe in his right hand?

Sounds pretty normal. I'll start doing that at my local resort. What could go wrong?


----------



## Snow Hound

dave785 said:


> Look at his shadow before he falls. So this guy is riding around while holding a fricken ice axe in his right hand?
> 
> Sounds pretty normal. I'll start doing that at my local resort. What could go wrong?


Not sure if joking? Perfectly normal when riding in exposed areas, for the very reason displayed in the clip.


----------



## neni

dave785 said:


> Look at his shadow before he falls. So this guy is riding around while holding a fricken ice axe in his right hand?
> 
> Sounds pretty normal. I'll start doing that at my local resort. What could go wrong?


I don't get your point.

Why looking at his shadow to spot the ice axe when the 
text in the post and title of the vid indicate this exact purpose of the vid? A self arrest after a potential fall in a steep crusty BC run is a pretty good reason to hold an ice axe...


@deagol: well done! Been only ever exercising self arrests in controlled circumstances; not sure if I'd have such a quick reaction if it happens in reallity. 
BTW: Do I spot a duct tape on the tip of the axe? To milden the sharp tip? If so: I really love my Petzl Summit II ice axe for this. It has no sharp edges, axe doesn't rip outware into pieces when slightly touching pants or backpack but is perfectly sharp enough to hold in ice.


----------



## Deacon

dave785 said:


> Look at his shadow before he falls. So this guy is riding around while holding a fricken ice axe in his right hand?
> 
> Sounds pretty normal. I'll start doing that at my local resort. What could go wrong?


:facepalm3::facepalm3:


----------



## chomps1211

dave785 said:


> Look at his shadow before he falls. So this guy is riding around while holding a fricken ice axe in his right hand?
> 
> Sounds pretty normal. I'll start doing that at my local resort. What could go wrong?


:question: :WTF:

Yeah,.... :blink: Really hope you're joking! Dude in that vid is pretty much in a "No Fall" situation. Having an ice axe in that situation is not at all odd or unusual!

Im surprised you didn't also make note of the fact that his ice axe is attached atop a "ski" pole! Like.... "Why is he snowboarding with a ski pole?" 

He's riding a split in the BC! They skin (...XC ski essentially) to the top, reassemble the board in order to shred some of the gnarliest of Gnar!!! 

Where you been hiding......? :blink:


----------



## snowklinger




----------



## dave785

Well today I learned that ice axes while snowboarding aren't that weird... lol


----------



## Jcb890

dave785 said:


> Well today I learned that ice axes while snowboarding aren't that weird... lol


For back country and hiking terrain they are common. Good thing you had a sense of humor with all of those responses, haha.


----------



## f00bar

Personally I would use whether I need to carry an ax with me as a pretty good indicator that I don't wanna go there 

I know it's common, JJ often seems to have one in one hand. And JJ certainly isn't afraid to show his spills. To me, carrying a big spiky thing to get impaled on while in a situation I'm likely to fall seems not so great an idea.

Again, that's me, and I well know my limitations.


----------



## wrathfuldeity

deagol said:


> here is an older vid I found of falling down a steep chute where an ice ax (Black Diamond Whippet) saved the day..
> Gopo's always flatten things out, but I looked this spot up on Caltopo gradient tool and it says it's about 45 degrees +/-


So a couple things:

this guy is using a whippet....not an ice ax

Imo the purpose of the whippet is thus: It is not necessarily for a self-arrest...but to keep the board below/downhill so that you have a chance to do a self-arrest in tandem with the board. The whippet or ice axe use in this vid is to get you body oriented so that you can self arrest. Perhaps in this vid, only arresting with a whippet might not happen...but the combo of the whippet and the ability to get the board downhill allows for the self-arrest.

In this terrain...if you do a header or the board ends being uphill, it is very hard to be able to get turned around....because the board will tend to be above the body and drag. And therefore you become a uncontrolled pinball bouncing and hitting the shit. Thus with the whippet you can drag/set it and get you body and board to swing around...for the potential of a self arrest.

I would not do that line ( which is wind compacted....if it was deep and fluffy it might be a different matter)... without some thing like a whippet, ice axe or some avy shovels can do this type of thing.

my 2 cents


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## dave785

f00bar said:


> Personally I would use whether I need to carry an ax with me as a pretty good indicator that I don't wanna go there
> 
> I know it's common, JJ often seems to have one in one hand. And JJ certainly isn't afraid to show his spills. To me, carrying a big spiky thing to get impaled on while in a situation I'm likely to fall seems not so great an idea.
> 
> Again, that's me, and I well know my limitations.


Yup, there is no doubt in my mind that if I held something like that on the way down, the only thing it would be used for is stabbing myself in the leg haha


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## deagol

Well, this did get a response, so I will reply. 
This was my first time ever riding steep terrain with a Whippet (sort of but not truly an Ice ax). There are two schools of thought on if you should ride with the wrist strap on or off:

with strap on: it keeps it from getting ripped out of your hand (which almost happened to me in this vid)

With strap off: If you have some sort of other crash, you don't want this thing attached to you in case you impale yourself. This means that you better hold on for dear life if you have a sliding-type crash, but you can let go if you have a rag-doll type crash (which probably would have been fatal in this case). 

The guys I was with were all very experienced with this and recommended I ride without the wrist strap. If I didn't have this thing at all, I'm about 70% sure I would have smashed into the cliffs below at unimaginable speed (probably be dead?). Yes, that is something you have to think about before riding terrain like this. The thing is, you are so much more exposed to potential death when driving your car than you realize, so risk is relative. 

I actually appreciate everyone's feedback and I can absolutely say that the Whippet saved me from serious injury or death and allowed me to ride the rest of the day uninjured (although I was a bit shaken).

By the way, the carbon version of the Whippet, I have read, was specifically designed for snowboarders since the (cheaper) alloy version does not collapse down enough to fit on your pack when riding in a mode you don't want/need it (only has 2 sections instead of 3 like the carbon). 

For those unfamiliar with splitboarding, you have touring poles. It totally makes sense to combine tasks for equipment when you can, so I prefer a whippet rather than a dedicated ice axe. I have a special attachment on my pack that holds the pick out of the way so it won't stab me if I crashed. 

I definitely prefer to ride without the whippet, but when you need it, you need it.

Here is another run using the whippet, where I didn't need it. I was unsure of snow conditions, so decided to hold it. I ended up not needed it, but it's like a seat belt in your car on steep stuff. 

This kind of riding and doing so with this kind of equipment is not intended for everyone, so keep that in mind..


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## deagol

neni said:


> ....... well done! Been only ever exercising self arrests in controlled circumstances; not sure if I'd have such a quick reaction if it happens in reallity.
> BTW: Do I spot a duct tape on the tip of the axe? To milden the sharp tip? If so: I really love my Petzl Summit II ice axe for this. It has no sharp edges, axe doesn't rip outware into pieces when slightly touching pants or backpack but is perfectly sharp enough to hold in ice.


Neni, 

I don't know if you remember, but when you and your Husband came out to splitboard with Killclimbz and I, I practiced with this thing on that steep face we climbed up. It was all just fun non-intimidating practice there. Doing it in a real scenario where the acceleration was so fast was a whole other world. Thankfully, I was able to keep cool enough to do what needed to be done. 

There is no duct tape on the tip. They come with plastic orange caps to cover the point when you don't need them (which was not on at the time). Over all, I highly recommend!!


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## wrathfuldeity

deagol, very nice pucker lines, didn't realize that was you in the first vid :thumbsup:

There was a thread a few days ago about someone from nyc/ec that went to whistler and wanted to go ape shit in the bc. Your 2nd vid was very good at showing the conservative riding that is required in bc...both vids...real shit right there ppls. Folks that only ride resort think you can go ape shit in the bc like JJ, TR or debari...but us mere mortals got to keep it real.


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## deagol

wrathfuldeity said:


> deagol, very nice pucker lines, didn't realize that was you in the first vid :thumbsup:
> 
> There was a thread a few days ago about someone from nyc/ec that went to whistler and wanted to go ape shit in the bc. Your 2nd vid was very good at showing the conservative riding that is required in bc...both vids...real shit right there ppls. Folks that only ride resort think you can go ape shit in the bc like JJ, TR or debari...but us mere mortals got to keep it real.


Thanks Wrath.

I do remember that thread.

Yes, this is true. When I am out there, I am constantly looking around for dangers and escape routes. I am very situationally aware and approach this with humility and maturity. 

Last weekend, I had just come down from a line visible from a pass near Breckenridge and was minding my own business putting stuff back in the car when a man and his son came up to me, almost drooling at my line. It was awkward, to say the least, getting asked all these questions. I could tell they wanted to try this, but they were not ready. people don't realize what goes into this, from avalanche awareness, terrain choices, weather, route familiarity, and more intangible things like personal risk aversion, mindset, muscular and cardio fitness, etc, etc, etc. 

It's not a video game (and is actually boring compared to the 700' gap I jumped in SSX3), so I hope people curb their enthusiasm somewhat and gain perspective that only years (decades?) of experience can provide. 

I was worried about this father and his son trying something they shouldn't.


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## Noreaster

dave785 said:


> Yup, there is no doubt in my mind that if I held something like that on the way down, the only thing it would be used for is stabbing myself in the leg haha


Well, hopefully not because if you *had* to use it you'd likely already be trained in using it.

Deagol - really terrific job at self arresting.


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## deagol

dave785 said:


> Well today I learned that ice axes while snowboarding aren't that weird... lol


This guy rides with one (sometimes two) and is as near a snowboard god as I have ever seen












No way in %^^&# I would go anywhere near the stuff he normally rides, though...


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## Jcb890

deagol said:


> This guy rides with one (sometimes two) and is as near a snowboard god as I have ever seen
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No way in %^^&# I would go anywhere near the stuff he normally rides, though...


Xavier de Le Rue is a fuckin' beast. I love the speed he rides those big mountain lines with.


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## Deacon

deagol said:


> This guy rides with one (sometimes two) and is as near a snowboard god as I have ever seen
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No way in %^^&# I would go anywhere near the stuff he normally rides, though...


Yeah, this doesn't actually fun.


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## Noreaster

This is me showing off my mad skillz on ice wall last year, heh. 










I'm far from snowboarding god (or, rather, goddess), but I use ice axe on my ascents and would absolutely also descend with it if I judge that conditions or slope angle requires it. I'm also firmly in the ax-attached-to-the-wrist camp, but then I have a mixed climbing background and that mindset is sort of drilled into you. 

By the way I do not consider the presence of ice axes or whippets an indication of "going over the edge" mentality or doing something that is necessarily out of your comfort zone or something you should dial back from. Like an air bag it is just another tool to protect you in the event something unexpected happens.


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## deagol

Noreaster:

Too bad I don't have a Breck pass. It would be fun to meet up and ride sometime...


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## neni

Noreaster said:


> This is me showing off my mad skillz on ice wall last year, heh.
> 
> I'm far from snowboarding god (or, rather, goddess), but I use ice axe on my ascents and would absolutely also descend with it if I judge that conditions or slope angle requires it. I'm also firmly in the ax-attached-to-the-wrist camp, but then I have a mixed climbing background and that mindset is sort of drilled into you.
> 
> By the way I do not consider the presence of ice axes or whippets an indication of "going over the edge" mentality or doing something that is necessarily out of your comfort zone or something you should dial back from. Like an air bag it is just another tool to protect you in the event something unexpected happens.


^This.

Btw: I'm of the w/o attach on the wrist group. If an avy gets you, get rid of _everything_, immediately. No wrist straps on the poles either. Doesn't mean we risk more. It's just another seat-belt thing.



f00bar said:


> Personally I would use whether I need to carry an ax with me as a pretty good indicator that I don't wanna go there
> 
> I know it's common, JJ often seems to have one in one hand. And JJ certainly isn't afraid to show his spills. To me, carrying a big spiky thing to get impaled on while in a situation I'm likely to fall seems not so great an idea.
> 
> Again, that's me, and I well know my limitations.


That's why one exercises the handling well _in advance_. To keep the pick fwd (_never_ backwards) has to be second skin cos you're trained to throw your body weight w one hand on the handle, one on the "shovel" next to your shoulder to arrest a slide. You may not hit the perfect spot in the stress of the moment, and the shovel digs in your collar bone... no big harm, only bruises, but you _don't _want to throw your weight on the pick cos you held the axe the wrong way around . 

It all comes step by step. One doesn't begin right in such faces. You get steeper bit by bit, get to know more challenging terrain step by step, learn to handle one situation and seek for the next. One doesn't step out of a resort and gets all "gnarly" immediately... If you do it step by step, you learn to appreciate the thrill of a chalenge and enjoy it if you could negotiate it. That "yay! Done it! Nailed it!!!" moment? Priceless. But it comes step by step with collection experience bit by bit 

I had been thrown into a situation which had scared the shit out of me at first. Ended up in a 45° boilerplate icefield. Below a rocky drop. Falling no option. Staying there, calmly analyze the options, breathe, trust the edge and make it out safely? I grew by meters that day... Fear is part of the game. The question is how you handle the fear. If you can back it up with skillz (acquired step by step) it can be very rewarding to clench ones teeth and dare to trust ones skillz.


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## Noreaster

deagol said:


> Noreaster:
> 
> Too bad I don't have a Breck pass. It would be fun to meet up and ride sometime...


Indeed. This season in CO is done for me, but if I psych myself up enough for a drive to Breck next year, with a car there it'll be easier to move around for me. So we may meet yet.


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## timmytard

Hard to tell the grade of this, because here, I am standing underneath it.:surprise:

Normally I'd ride down on the outside of this.

But I found a little hole while going around.
Looked pretty neat so I had to go in it.

This is in the "Danger permanently closed" area that I love.

The fence I keep jumping, if you go too far left, or not far enough right.

You will get trapped in the ravine.
The edges are pretty steep haha


[ame]https://vimeo.com/149982738[/ame]


TT


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## f00bar

neni said:


> If you do it step by step, you learn to appreciate the thrill of a chalenge and enjoy it if you could negotiate it. That "yay! Done it! Nailed it!!!" moment? Priceless. But it comes step by step with collection experience bit by bit


I was being a bit tongue in cheek with the if an ax is required I'm not doing it. I know all the hard work you all put in.

For me this is one of the great things about this sport. Where I am and where my expectations are I can get this same feeling from a crappy resort in the northeast. Now from an outside perspective looking at the two I'm beyond tame and not nearly impressive, and in comparison boring. But for me its a thrill none the less. Nobody would watch a video of me and have the words 'extreme sport' come to mind. But even my baby steps thrill me pesonally.

To be clear, I'm not trying to start a competition of me more fun than you. I watch, love, and admire the JJ movies and threads on this forum like this. I just don't find myself driven to try get there. I'm a Sunday warrior, not even a weekend warrior with this. Which again is what is great about this sport. Everyone sets their own goals and bounds and in the end except for the chosen few pros the only competition is with yourself and what you make for yourself.


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## BoardWalk

neni said:


> it can be very rewarding to clench ones teeth and dare to trust ones skillz.


We fall from different trees because it's not my teeth that do the clenching. :scared1:


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## deagol

One thing about riding with a device like this, if something does go wrong and you need to dig in, it's way easier if you are on your toeside edge so you are facing the slope. being on heelside requires you do an awkward reach around, all while you accelerate downwards at scary speeds. 

Mountaineers practice this and usually remove their crampons so they don't accidentally dig in and cause them to go head over heels down the slope like a rag doll. The snowboard isn't quite as bad in that regard.


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## timmytard

deagol said:


> One thing about riding with a device like this, if something does go wrong and you need to dig in, it's way easier if you are on your toeside edge so you are facing the slope. being on heelside requires you do an awkward reach around, all while you accelerate downwards at scary speeds.
> 
> Mountaineers practice this and usually remove their crampons so they don't accidentally dig in and cause them to go head over heels down the slope like a rag doll. The snowboard isn't quite as bad in that regard.


Yeah we had to learn that in Wilderness camp.

Reach arounds, are never comfortable.:dry:


TT


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## Deacon

timmytard said:


> Yeah we had to learn that in Wilderness camp.
> 
> Reach arounds, are never comfortable.:dry:
> 
> 
> TT


Wilderness camp, that's that boot camp for juvenile delinquents, right?


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## f00bar

Deacon said:


> Wilderness camp, that's that boot camp for juvenile delinquents, right?


Wasn't that "Band of the Hand"? I think they down Lawrence Fishbourne.


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## Noreaster

Meanwhile found this little gem. 

The comment are half the fun too, one about coins is hysterical.

https://www.liveleak.com/view?i=677_1424561966


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## neni

Noreaster said:


> Meanwhile found this little gem.
> 
> The comment are half the fun too, one about coins is hysterical.
> 
> https://www.liveleak.com/view?i=677_1424561966


Thanks for this! Needed a good laugh. Those comments made me giggle all through my morning coffee :laugh:


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## timmytard

Deacon said:


> Wilderness camp, that's that boot camp for juvenile delinquents, right?


:embarrased1: Yup

When I was 16, a buddy of mine and I were walking down the road.

Car stopped in front of us, 3 guys got out & started throwing punches.

We knew who they were, they were all in grade 12.
We were only in grade 9

The 2 of us kicked the shit out of them.
Totally demolished em.

One of the guys ended up becoming def in one ear. 
From a well timed kick to the head.

So we got in shit.
What a fucking joke.

In the last few days of wilderness camp, you have to do a solo.

They take each guy to a secluded place and leave you there for 3 days.

They tell you if you see someone, to hide.

I heard a 4X4 coming and I walked out to check it out.

My instructor also seen them and asked them if they seen any kids?

They said Yup 1 long haired kid.
I was the only kid with long hair.

So I got reamed out and told I had to do the whole thing over again, from the beginning.
With a new group of delinquents.

Second go round was much, much more fun.
I knew what to do & more importantly knew what NOT to do.

Every kid should be forced to do it.
Maybe not through corrections haha 



TT


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## deagol

Noreaster said:


> Meanwhile found this little gem.
> 
> The comment are half the fun too, one about coins is hysterical.
> 
> https://www.liveleak.com/view?i=677_1424561966


hmmm, link doesn't work for me...

Edit: watched the vid..... OUCH


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## phillyphan

Noreaster said:


> Meanwhile found this little gem.
> 
> The comment are half the fun too, one about coins is hysterical.
> 
> https://www.liveleak.com/view?i=677_1424561966


Lol, dude is pretty lucky. Or he was just smart enough to not fight it and head straight down the chute. Either way it was entertaining.


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## Noreaster

deagol said:


> hmmm, link doesn't work for me...


Try googling LiveLeak.com - Snowboarding turns into belly sliding.


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## timmytard

What the fuck was that guy even doing there?

He obviously has no idea how to snowboard.

That shit happens to everyone, if you can't right yourself, in the distance of what 500 feet more?
Hard to tell?

You should be on a groomer.:dry:

I didn't have the volume up, I'm sure he said "watch this, I'm gonna dolphin this whole chute"

Cause there's no fucking way he slides that whole thing, until the point he actually makes it to his feet.

Then flops over and continues the dolphin.

Phony bologna


TT


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## neni

Would have been _very_ glad I'd had an ice axe - not to speak of the knowledge how to use it - in my first real hairy BC trap. Yup, guilty as charged .

I knew there's ice at the entrance. But entering the cute, there was slush. Naive as I was I tought the entire slope is nice spring corn from the sun exposition. Well... bing bing. Someone learned that day to keep an eye on the shades - and to trust my edges :laugh:. 
The entire right side of the cute was boilerplate ice. And sure enough I rode ight into it. Few m to the left? Slush. Few m right? Ice. Oh man...

[ame]https://vimeo.com/206141942[/ame]


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## deagol

Sweet video, Neni!

:eusa_clap:

that is Whippet/Ice Axe territory for sure. That run looks real steep even with the helmet cam flattening effect. One hint of steepness is those little bits of snow that get knocked loose and tumble down the slope on their own.

to Noreaster: watched the vid..... OUCH.


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## chomps1211

neni said:


> Would have been _very_ glad I'd had an ice axe - not to speak of the knowledge how to use it - in my first real hairy BC trap. Yup, guilty as charged .
> 
> I knew there's ice at the entrance. But entering the cute, there was slush. Naive as I was I tought the entire slope is nice spring corn from the sun exposition. Well... bing bing. Someone learned that day to keep an eye on the shades - and to trust my edges :laugh:.
> The entire right side of the cute was boilerplate ice. And sure enough I rode ight into it. Few m to the left? Slush. Few m right? Ice. Oh man...
> 
> https://vimeo.com/206141942


:eyetwitch2:

JEEEBUS!!! :blink: You just gave me a "fear of heights" anxiety attack sitting in my truck @ sea level!!! 

(....and I'm not joking either!) :blink:


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## neni

chomps1211 said:


> :eyetwitch2:
> 
> JEEEBUS!!! :blink: You just gave me a "fear of heights" anxiety attack sitting in my truck @ sea level!!!
> 
> (....and I'm not joking either!) :blink:





deagol said:


> Sweet video, Neni!
> 
> :eusa_clap:
> 
> that is Whippet/Ice Axe territory for sure. That run looks real steep even with the helmet cam flattening effect. One hint of steepness is those little bits of snow that get knocked loose and tumble down the slope on their own.



Upper part was in the 40ties. Bit steeper where I was trapped. Maybe 45°. Surely enough to make a potential fall on ice a unbreakable uncontrolled slide. Lol, I had been _very_ happy to ride windblown hardpack - _comparably_ easy to edge afterwards. Tho... still amazed how well the edge held on that boilerplate, even when clumsily hopping my way out. If the tilt is given? Few inch are sufficient. (However, that was the moment I sweared to myself I gonna learn to ride switch :laugh


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## ItchEtrigR

That was pretty intense, nowhere I would like to find myself. That looked downright life threatening.

Sent from my SM-N900 using Tapatalk


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## Noreaster

neni said:


> However, that was the moment I sweared to myself I gonna learn to ride switch :laugh:


Good thing you didn't get cliffed, next thing you know you'd be getting a park pass. >


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## phillyphan

@neni what would you say the degree of that slope is in your avatar pic?


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## neni

phillyphan said:


> @neni what would you say the degree of that slope is in your avatar pic?


About 45°



Noreaster said:


> Good thing you didn't get cliffed, next thing you know you'd be getting a park pass. >


Lol! Will never happen. I'm way too scared from that stuff. Little hops n drops, ok. But air? Nope. I prefer firm ground under my base


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## timmytard

Here's a kinda steep run:dry:

This is mt.Baker 
The run, FLY ON THE WALL

The guy dropping in is some guy they call Ranqy.
Apparently this guy's not bad? :embarrased1: haha


TT


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## Deacon

This is steep. Jesus.


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## timmytard

Deacon said:


> This is steep. Jesus.


OK what the fuck was that at about the 5:50 mark?

A horseshoe falling out of his ass?
Haha what the fuck:surprise:


TT


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## Seppuccu

Deacon said:


> This is steep. Jesus.


5:51-5:56 - best part.


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## wrathfuldeity

timmytard said:


> Here's a kinda steep run:dry:
> 
> This is mt.Baker
> The run, FLY ON THE WALL
> 
> The guy dropping in is some guy they call Ranqy.
> Apparently this guy's not bad? :embarrased1: haha
> 
> 
> TT


The problem besides steep and the rollover are that the trees and cliffs on the bottom half...there is no clear runout. I've watched folks basically do a 80'+ drop through the trees...presumably they made it cause you can't see the bottom.


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## Clayton Bigsby

steepest "run" I've been on was with a couple friends heading towards the Canyon from the top of Pandome, we ended up between two rock walls and had no choice but to drop in (to icy to unbuckle and walk out), luckily that section of Pan is so steep that there's a huge pillow of powder at the bottom from blasting or just sluff. 

If I had to guess it was approx. 70 degrees, my buddy was directly below me, I remember I had both hands on the icy wall (you know like getting frisked by the cops) and had to look down under my left armpit to see him. Good thing that was a couple years into our riding so we actually had steel edges, wouldn't have made it so easily without them.


----------

