# Technical Shell Jacket Recommendations



## genebike

Check out the Burton AK Cyclic or Stagger. They're a bit pricey, but worth it in my opinion.


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## fraxmental

genebike said:


> Check out the Burton AK Cyclic or Stagger. They're a bit pricey, but worth it in my opinion.


take a look at quiksilver. they make nice snowboarding apparel, and think they are available in your country at fair prices. you wont go wrong with them.


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## drc13

genebike said:


> Check out the Burton AK Cyclic or Stagger. They're a bit pricey, but worth it in my opinion.


Thanks, I'd had a look at them in the past. Unfortunately the Cyclic doesn't have wrist gaiters and the Stagger is insulated. Have just discovered the Burton Goretex Andover which seems to tick the boxes so will do some more research on it. Also just spotted the Burton 3L Porter.


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## sw00shm4n

I just picked up the volcom bjorn jacket from dogfunk. Haven't gotten to try it out yet obviously, but I really like it just from trying it on so far: Solid, thick and durable feeling fabric rated at 15k, pit zips (not mesh-lined though), powder skirt, wrist gaiters. It's just a shell like you're looking for, but it is lined with fleece on the inside. Only has two pockets on the outside and then a goggle pouch thing on the inside. I know you said you wanted more pockets but at the price it's at now, it's a pretty good deal.

Volcom Bjorn 3-Layer Jacket - Men's from Dogfunk.com


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## DrnknZag

What's you price range? If you're searching for a TRUE technical shell, get ready to shell out big bucks.

I've owned the AK Cyclic & AK Stagger jackets. The Stagger isn't insulated, but it does have a thermally reflective liner. Good jacket, I wore one two seasons ago but got rid of it because the arm's weren't long enough for me. The Cyclic is pretty similar to the Stagger, but without any frills. Just a stripped down Gore shell. Not many pockets on the Cyclic though. Also one thing to note is none of Burton's jackets have wrist gaiters.

My favorite technical Gore shell right now is the Oakley Choice. Super lightweight, Goretex Pro Shell laminate, longer cut, but still has a technical fit, not a lot of pockets (I don't like too many pockets), and has Oakley's pants to jacket interface. I have the old non-Goretex version of the jacket and love it (Oakley Primed). I highly recommend it if you can afford it.


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## drc13

Thanks for the replies guys. I looked into the volcom jacket but unfortunately there's none available in my size (small)\

DrnknZag I really just want something I don't get as hot in but with the tech features I'm after. This comment on burtons site about the stagger worries me "Newly re-mastered, the men’s Burton [ak]™ 2L Stagger Jacket’s strategically designed lining and *lightweight insulation*" . I was hoping burtons "powder cuff" would do a similar job to wrist gaiters?

The Burton Gore-Tex Andover seems to tick a lot of boxes except it's probably not as fitted as I would like. Does anyone have any thoughts on this jacket?


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## cjcameron11

Volcom crack, has everything you listed plus its goretex, i was at mt buller today and it was shit, rained all day but i was dry as a bone.


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## Music Moves

I found a really good deal on a Homeschool jacket. 

Homeschool

The usual retail cost is a bit pricey, but they have great tech and these garments should last a while.


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## DrnknZag

I'd stay away from Volcom jackets if you want a basic shell. All Volcom tech shells I've tried on have all been super heavy and very layered (not quite shell). I'm not sold on the Andover. I'm not very high on non-AK Burton outerwear for durability reasons. It looks like it's just a budget Gore jacket. It does have a lining, so it's not quite a shell either IMO. I can't find anything that says it has the pow grip (or whatever it's called), but maybe I'm wrong.


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## ShredLife

DrnknZag said:


> I'd stay away from Volcom jackets if you want a basic shell. All Volcom tech shells I've tried on have all been super heavy and very layered (not quite shell). I'm not sold on the Andover. I'm not very high on non-AK Burton outerwear for durability reasons. It looks like it's just a budget Gore jacket. It does have a lining, so it's not quite a shell either IMO. I can't find anything that says it has the pow grip (or whatever it's called), but maybe I'm wrong.


i was just going to say something like this.

any jacket with ANY type of liner at all is NOT a technical shell. 

if you buy a goretex proshell jacket with a liner you are wasting your money.

you really shouldn't buy anything from a snowboard company if you want bomber gear - buy from mountaineering companies - Arc'teryx is pretty much the best. Patagonia, Mt. Hardwear, others like that are good. 

just don't buy anything with a liner. they're fucking stupid, pointless, heavy, sweaty, and wet. snowboarding gear sucks shit - its all made for little kids whose parents are too stupid to not buy them new gear every season.

Volcom used to be cool when i still used to buy little kids shit, they have had every opportunity to step up to big boy shit, and they continue to churn out kiddie garbage. Fuck Volcom.


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## DrnknZag

^^Yup, I completely agree. Looking at technical outerwear from snowboard companies, Burton's AK stuff is ok, but doesn't compare to the mountaineering companies. I have been impressed with Oakley's PRS kits for Seth Morrison & Jake Blauvelt. Probably the best tech outerwear outside of said mountaineering companies.


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## Lamps

If your budget will cover go with goretex proshell, best material out there. 

After that it's who has the features you like. 

I'd sacrifice a lot of things to get a pro shell jacket on sale, it's great stuff

Lamps


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## Music Moves

ShredLife said:


> i was just going to say something like this.
> 
> any jacket with ANY type of liner at all is NOT a technical shell.
> 
> if you buy a goretex proshell jacket with a liner you are wasting your money.
> 
> you really shouldn't buy anything from a snowboard company if you want bomber gear - buy from mountaineering companies - Arc'teryx is pretty much the best. Patagonia, Mt. Hardwear, others like that are good.
> 
> just don't buy anything with a liner. they're fucking stupid, pointless, heavy, sweaty, and wet. snowboarding gear sucks shit - its all made for little kids whose parents are too stupid to not buy them new gear every season.
> 
> Volcom used to be cool when i still used to buy little kids shit, they have had every opportunity to step up to big boy shit, and they continue to churn out kiddie garbage. Fuck Volcom.





DrnknZag said:


> ^^Yup, I completely agree. Looking at technical outerwear from snowboard companies, Burton's AK stuff is ok, but doesn't compare to the mountaineering companies. I have been impressed with Oakley's PRS kits for Seth Morrison & Jake Blauvelt. Probably the best tech outerwear outside of said mountaineering companies.


Being from the PNW, I'm surprised you two didn't chime in about Homeschool. Granted it hasn't become a proven brand in terms of longevity, but you can't argue with the tech.


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## ShredLife

Homeschool: 

- cocona or whatever is NOT Gore-Tex. Nothing that is not named Gore-Tex is Gore-Tex. The closest thing to Gore-Tex that is not is probably Patagonia's H2NO, and even they are going to Gore on this year's high-end stuff.

- ugly as fuck... circa 1991 color schemes, knee patches in contrasting colors on pants, purple zippers on a blacked out jacket....

- serious lack of diversity thru the line. want an integrated hood or a stowable one? high collar or low? offset zipper? they only offer one model of high end jacket, Arc'teryx has about 20.

- fit and finish, experience, time in the game - I am an Arc'teryx fanboy. i've never seen any other company consistently make shit so well. seams are perfect - they've been using welded seams longer than just about anyone. if i destroy an Arc' piece they will replace it, it is all Gore so if it leaks it is guaranteed. 

Arc' uses the lightest weight, strongest face fabrics around. i promise you anything from HS or Trew will be heavier weight, less breathable, and no more waterproof. 

so those are some of my reasons. most of all it is my experience with snowboarding companies making shit that needs to be replaced each season, and hung up to dry at the end of the day. the stuff i've seen from HS and even Trew is too heavy weight, and WILL hold sweat moisture inside it, will get waterlogged sooner than light fabric.

in a suit of Arc' armor i am comfortable with the idea of digging a snowcave and spending the night in it and being dry. for what i do this is pretty valuable. the heavier weight face fabrics just don't do the same thing.


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## ShredLife

not talking shit about these other companies like HS and Trew, or whoever else wants to at least look forward with outerwear design - these guys ARE on the right track. 

i see these companies as kind of bridging the gap between resort riding and BC. i imagine lots of the kids that want to have something that will work as they start to get into the backcountry will get this kind of gear and be happy with it, because it IS better than anything with a liner... it just isn't as good as real mountaineering gear. 

so if you just ride lifts, or are a grom who thinks they need to look "cool" (neon, patchwork, retarded) in the BC i think that stuff would work just fine - give em 5 years and if they strive to improve their product they could be great. 

if you are about comfort and stability in real life or death survival situations, then get the shit that has been proven for 15+ years. you won't see any snowboards in their ads :laugh:


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## yimingration

Check out Trew Gear, all their jackets are 20k/20k. Full retail price are about 480, but backcountry has them for 220 right now.


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## Music Moves

ShredLife said:


> not talking shit about these other companies like HS and Trew, or whoever else wants to at least look forward with outerwear design - these guys ARE on the right track.
> 
> i see these companies as kind of bridging the gap between resort riding and BC. i imagine lots of the kids that want to have something that will work as they start to get into the backcountry will get this kind of gear and be happy with it, because it IS better than anything with a liner... it just isn't as good as real mountaineering gear.
> 
> so if you just ride lifts, or are a grom who thinks they need to look "cool" (neon, patchwork, retarded) in the BC i think that stuff would work just fine - give em 5 years and if they strive to improve their product they could be great.
> 
> if you are about comfort and stability in real life or death survival situations, then get the shit that has been proven for 15+ years. you won't see any snowboards in their ads :laugh:


Essentially, you wrote a book about the one statement I made in my post, "Granted it hasn't become a proven brand in terms of longevity," but I certainly understand your commitment to Arc and you definitely can't argue with GT performance as I've used it greatly.

I know people who have used the HS garments extensively in various conditions for almost 2 years and stand by them, saying they are just as breathable as any GT garments they've had and so far seem to be as durable (just need another year or two to really determine). Considering I lucked up with one of their highest-end (22,000/20,000) shells for $65 back in May, I'm definitely stoked to put it to the duration test. 

Regarding them being on the right track, I agree, and will add that I'm not sure I would have given them a shot without the steal I managed to stumble upon. Imo though, they have very tame designs and color ways, so I'm not sure what you meant by the "look cool" statements. I'm also not a mountaineer, so I also enjoy that these cats ARE snowboarders trying to create a solid apparel company FOR snowboarders. Again, I'm fortunate to get this particular jacket for approximately 80% less than most would have to pay, but if we don't give POTENTIALLY great tech a shot, the Arc's of the industry that have no competition will always be able to charge significantly higher prices than necessary for quality goods.

I'll be in WA for a while in January. Maybe we can ride if you're around.

EDIT: I hadn't thought of HS's warranty info yet because, well, look what I paid for the jacket. Anyway, I checked and it appears that it is the same as Arc's, which is great. Of course, Arc's has been extensively used and proven over time. Never really know if how a company is going translate "defects in materials or workmanship."


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## ShredLife

The looks comment was more directed to Trew but HS pants look like they're from 1991.
If the fabric is listed as ??k/??mm then it is a dwr rating and it will not compare to gore-tex. I have seen hs and trew in person and they are both heavy compared to the bird. 

That's all I got.
I am always down to shred.


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## Music Moves

Yeah, definitely not a fan of the knee pads and def agree that Arc drops science in the feel and weight department. Also admittedly, the jacket is a bit stiffer than I like initially, but for $65, I'm stoked to beat it to death. I'll also have my other garments if I want .


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## ShredLife

Fair enough... For what its worth I get patagonia pro forms and will pay retail for Arc' on occasion. The.Arc jacket I wear now I got for 280 ($475 msrp)at my home mt. (hood) in march right when they start to cut prices...


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## readimag

I agree with shred, my go to companies are outdoor research, arc and marmot with mt hard wear and pat rounding it out. Take a look at mt hardwear snowpocalypse it is amazing and is a softshell. I have been using the new OR Axiom jacket for everything as of late it has gore-tex active for the shell, it is amazing how much it breathes in a down pour when hiking.


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## DrnknZag

I've got nothing against Trew and Homeschool, but I don't consider them "true" tech wear. No Goretex, no thanks. No laminate comes close to Goretex in terms of waterproofing, breathability, and weight.

I'm with Shred too on the style, neither brand is really my style at all.


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## hktrdr

DrnknZag said:


> I've got nothing against Trew and Homeschool, but I don't consider them "true" tech wear. *No Goretex, no thanks. No laminate comes close to Goretex in terms of waterproofing, breathability, and weight.*
> 
> I'm with Shred too on the style, neither brand is really my style at all.


I am sorry, but that is complete bullshit. A number of other fabrics (eVent is probably the best known one, but there are others) have been generally outperforming Gore-Tex for years, most notably in terms of breathability. There is a pretty well-known study conducted by the US military a few years ago that found the same.

That said, rating fabric breathability is non-trivial - different fabrics perform differently in different conditions, not all of which are practical or realistic. For instance, a number of these membranes have their best breathability measures when completely soaked - not ideal for most applications...

Still, it is clear that there are a number of fabrics that at least rival, if not exceed, the performance of Gore-Tex (not surprising, considering that Gore-Tex was invented almost 40 years ago). Stating that "no laminate comes close to Goretex in terms of waterproofing, breathability, and weight" is demonstrably false.

This page provides a pretty good summary for some of the materials available in the market.


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## DrnknZag

Whoa, calm down there cowboy.

Yes, there are a few fabrics that in my book equal Goretex in terms of performance (yes, eVent is one of them). I was mainly speaking towards the common fabrics seen in outerware, specifically when talking about Trew and Homeschool. I guess my comment was a little misleading, but you get the picture. I hate going in a shop and having them tell me that 20k/20k is basically Goretex. THAT'S bullshit.


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## Music Moves

That's a nice little summary, hktrdr, and I agree with much of what you've said. If reviews are any indication, Cocona Xcelerator will be added to that list at some point. It has been said that it is 50% more breathable than "the best available," which I'm assuming would be eVent. I'm stoked to give it a shot.

Oh, and here is a list from 2009 of companies that were already using Cocona, what Homeschool is using:

Eddie Bauer, New Balance, Adidas, Orvis, Marmot, Patagonia, Oakley, Izod, Rossignol, Cutter & Buck, Dockers, Sugoi, VauDe, Mammut, and Millet

Some heavy hitters there.. I wish I could find a more recent list.


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## ShredLife

marmot, millet, mammut, and patagonia are the only two companies you listed that even matter in this discussion - and most of those guys are using GT for their top end stuff. the rest are not making the kind of clothes we give a fuck about for snowboarding


i would argue that breathability doesn't matter, because anything that breathes as well or better than GT is good enough. all my jackets will have pit zips, and they will all get used. the real key is waterproofness and how long it will stay waterproof (as in years)....

in MY experience GT is still the king, and on top of that Arc'teryx is the undisputed king of shells. its not just that they are using GT - it is that they are sourcing the best, lightest weight, strongest, most comfortable face fabrics to attach the GT laminate to. the fabric they use shits all over HS/Trew/Marmot/Patagonia. this makes a huge fucking difference.


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## Music Moves

Haha, dude, I get it. You love gore. I too have a quite a bit of gore products by which I stand, but neither of us can honestly discuss how the new tech performs at length, as we have no real experience with it. I'm simply excited to try something new. I am on all accounts a gore fan... really just a fan of progression in gear and apparel in general and I haven't encountered anyone or anything dismissing the performance of this tech. And if, imo, it sucks, you guys will read about it.


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## ShredLife

honestly i just need shit to work so i don't have to think about comfort when i'm out there. i have had better luck with Patagonia's h2no than GT in waders, and i spend alot of time standing in the water - so that is what i wear. 

i am a whore for Arc'teryx shells - i have tried most of the rest at some point or another and for me the bird is it. i feel as lightweight as a ninja but as armored as something out of Halo or some shit. i've had a pair of their pants last me over 300 days in the mountains, probably about the same for the jackets. 

when it comes to other stuff like fleeces and gloves and underwear and other shit i get Patagonia or Marmot or Smartwool or whatever works best for me - and for me, for shells - i'm going Arc'teryx. When they start using cocona or eVent or unicorn farts in their jackets, I'll will use it because i believe that their standard for outerwear is pretty much as high as it gets. oh yes - i have drank the kool-aid


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## gstboy

ShredLife said:


> i am a whore for Arc'teryx shells - i have tried most of the rest at some point or another and for me the bird is it. i feel as lightweight as a ninja but as armored as something out of Halo or some shit. i've had a pair of their pants last me over 300 days in the mountains, probably about the same for the jackets.


I'm looking at getting either the Stingray or the Sabre SV. Have you tried either of these? Are the pants that unbelievable that would warrant shelling out over $300 a pair?


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## ShredLife

i have a Sabre SV right now and its my favorite shell so far.... personally i don't like the hood/collar style of the stingray although i do own some jackets like that..i also wouldn't buy one with insulation - but that is just me and where i live and what i need it to do for me...

if you live in a wet area, do not want a wet ass ever, or would rather have your pants last 5-8 seasons instead of one or two - then yes, they are worth it

all this stuff is great for the resort, if a little overkill for most people - where it really shines is hiking, and in the backcountry. plenty of people who only ride resorts use it tho, so don't feel weird about getting the most hardcore shit if you want it, can afford it, and just want to be comfortable all the time with out having to think about it.


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## gstboy

I was also looking at the crossbow but I couldn't really see any big differences between that and the sabre to justify the extra $100 price tag.


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## blunted_nose

ShredLife said:


> i have a Sabre SV right now and its my favorite shell so far.... personally i don't like the hood/collar style of the stingray although i do own some jackets like that..i also wouldn't buy one with insulation - but that is just me and where i live and what i need it to do for me...
> 
> if you live in a wet area, do not want a wet ass ever, or would rather have your pants last 5-8 seasons instead of one or two - then yes, they are worth it
> 
> all this stuff is great for the resort, if a little overkill for most people - where it really shines is hiking, and in the backcountry. plenty of people who only ride resorts use it tho, so don't feel weird about getting the most hardcore shit if you want it, can afford it, and just want to be comfortable all the time with out having to think about it.


EHHHHH, the real snowboarders snowboard in a hoodie and some jeans. UMAD?
Im just kidding, tho i really wish i could afford something like Arc'teryx or even something that is above 15k rating


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## ShredLife

i paid 280 for a shell with an msrp of i think 475. i got it from my local mountain's gear shop in march when stuff just starts to go on sale.

i actually end up paying less for gear because the shit lasts at least 3 times as long as dwr rated stuff that needs to be replaced over and over. 



buy once cry once...


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## blunted_nose

ShredLife said:


> i paid 280 for a shell with an msrp of i think 475. i got it from my local mountain's gear shop in march when stuff just starts to go on sale.
> 
> i actually end up paying less for gear because the shit lasts at least 3 times as long as dwr rated stuff that needs to be replaced over and over.
> 
> 
> 
> buy once cry once...


You are welcome to donate, but honestly i payed for a shell with 10k rating and im going to end up riding it for next 10 years. Some cant afford a new jacket every year and i dont really care if my bum is cold or wet. Id rather shred then whine. Here in banff area it gets really cold and dry so we dont get wet, we get cold, but i can layer up if needed.


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## ShredLife

blunted_nose said:


> i payed for a shell with 10k rating and im going to end up riding it for next 10 years.


well good luck with that one.

i'm not sure what to think of the rest of your reply... is that directed towards me? was i whining and not shredding and buying a new jacket every year?

in my experience its the people who buy the 10k stuff who are the ones replacing it every year...its because it does not work. 

i like to be comfortable.


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## blunted_nose

ShredLife said:


> well good luck with that one.
> 
> i'm not sure what to think of the rest of your reply... is that directed towards me? was i whining and not shredding and buying a new jacket every year?
> 
> in my experience its the people who buy the 10k stuff who are the ones replacing it every year...its because it does not work.
> 
> i like to be comfortable.


Not to you, to everyone that whines." wet ass bla bla bla Gt is da Bestz bla bla everything else is sooo bad bla bla im going to climb everest so i need a space suit bla bla" 
Im just glad i can snowboard. Got to have to make the best out of your budget. If i could have a GT jacket id love one, but they are so expensive. I dont know about you, But im pretty stoked about my Airblaster shell 
anyways, happy shredin.


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## Riley212

gore tex is great if you ride everyday nto matter the weather, or you are go on trips and ride regardless of weather. So if you are gonna go when its wet, and you want to stay dry, buy goretex. i really like my norrona gear, same quality or better than arc'teryx but looser cuts. these jackets will generally last decades with proper care.

if you dont mind being damp, pretty much anything eles will work, i have had good luck with bonfire jackets, they make a quality product for not a lot of money. pick a jacket you like and go ride


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## snowklinger

My ass doesnt get wet because I use Goretex pants, but more importantly I can stretch around my beergut and tie my boots and strap in without sitting down everytime - learn it!

fyi you don't have to buy $8000 arcteryx to get GTX, there are other brands that make perfectly fine gtx gear at half the price of the premium brands like patagonia, etc. Not that theres anything wrong with the nice stuff...

Volcom, Burton AK, etc..


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## Lamps

Riley212 said:


> gore tex is great if you ride everyday nto matter the weather, or you are go on trips and ride regardless of weather. So if you are gonna go when its wet, and you want to stay dry, buy goretex. i really like my norrona gear, same quality or better than arc'teryx but looser cuts. these jackets will generally last decades with proper care.
> 
> if you dont mind being damp, pretty much anything eles will work, i have had good luck with bonfire jackets, they make a quality product for not a lot of money. pick a jacket you like and go ride



+1 on the goretex comment, it does work a lot better, and if you're our in wet over very damp weather there is a significant difference. 

I have a Burton AK 3L hover jacket, works great and is a true shell. The 3L proshell is a great material, very durable, very waterproof, and very breathable. Downside is cost - I think that noronna, arcteryx, and burton do the 3L, all of which are pricey, but it is a long term investment unless you grow out of it.


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## a bag of it

is the sidewinder sv the longest cut from arcterx? how does it compare to the length of the patagonia powslayer?


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## Sassicaia

I get that it comes down to affordability, but some of the comments here about being ok to ride wet and or cold is just stupid to be. Id buy used goretex or some 20/20 before I bought a new 10k...especially if you want the thing to last a long time anyway. Go to eby...there is tons of good used shit on there. Dont cheap out on comfort and function.


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## mtw

Say you had $500 to spend, what technical shell jacket would you go for?


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## Lamps

mtw said:


> Say you had $500 to spend, what technical shell jacket would you go for?


Burton AK 3L Hover Jacket


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## mtw

You wouldn't go for one of the lower-end Arcteryx jackets?


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## ARSENALFAN

Lamps said:


> Burton AK 3L Hover Jacket



I believe its 650 CAN or 580 USD.


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## gstboy

Sabre Jacket - Revised / Men's / Arc'teryx

Sabre Jacket for $525.00.


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## Nivek

MOST people will never need goretex. That's just the way it is. PNW sure. Anywhere else is not cold enough or not wet enough for it to be a factor. I have a pair of the original 32 Joe Sexton pants circa 2009 that STRETCH and are a 20k. Still my go to pant for gnar pow days cause they are still waterproof.

I hate goretex. I have a jacket I got for running in for shit weather and almost never wear it. Its too fucking hot. And it's just a goretex brand tech shell. Literally just the goretex, nothing else. Keeps me dry sure, but when its snowing and 25* out and I start sweating? Fuck that.

I can't figure out whey peoples shit gets wet snowboarding (PNW excepted). What are you doing that you're staying in pressured contact with snow that long that its getting you wet?

I personally will never need anything more than 20k. Then again I get free outerwear every year...


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## a bag of it

My goretex shells are definitely not too warm idk what the hell your talking about


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## Nivek

a bag of it said:


> My goretex shells are definitely not too warm idk what the hell *you're* talking about


Fixed that for ya. Ha.

I don't know either. Its not fucking breathable enough. Not my fault.

My two biggest problems are that its not breathable enough and it doesn't stretch. If I can get away with a 20k that also stretches I will do that all the time before I go goretex.


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## ShredLife

You'd probably like the gore softshell stuff...


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## Sassicaia

Nivek said:


> MOST people will never need goretex. That's just the way it is. PNW sure. Anywhere else is not cold enough or not wet enough for it to be a factor. I have a pair of the original 32 Joe Sexton pants circa 2009 that STRETCH and are a 20k. Still my go to pant for gnar pow days cause they are still waterproof.
> 
> I hate goretex. I have a jacket I got for running in for shit weather and almost never wear it. Its too fucking hot. And it's just a goretex brand tech shell. Literally just the goretex, nothing else. Keeps me dry sure, but when its snowing and 25* out and I start sweating? Fuck that.
> 
> I can't figure out whey peoples shit gets wet snowboarding (PNW excepted). What are you doing that you're staying in pressured contact with snow that long that its getting you wet?
> 
> I personally will never need anything more than 20k. Then again I get free outerwear every year...


I completely disagree with you (along with virtually every reviewer, user and countless top end manufactures that use the membrane). ANYONE can benefit from goretex. Its second to none for breathability which is critical, so even if you board and it NEVER rains its worth while. HOT?! its a shell and unless the manufacture ads an additional inner lining its not going to make you hot..ever. The fact its a shell is great because you can layer up or down based on your personal preference and weather conditions.

Goretex wont breath well if you dont wash it as the poors get clogged. Running is a sure way to do that quick because you are going to sweat a hell of a lot more then when boarding. You will compound the problem if you wear cotton underneath.


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## mtw

So thus far the two suggestions are:
- Burton AK 3L Hover jacket
- Arcteryx Sabre Jacket (Revised?)

EDIT: I don't mind going up/down a little from the $500 limit. I'm just trying to find the best possible options without going waaaaay over budget


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## a bag of it

I really like my arcteryx theta SV. I paid $275 on sale


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## mtw

Where are you guys finding these specials?

- Burton AK 3L Hover Jacket - RRP USD$569.95
- Arcteryx Sabre Jacket - RRP USD$525.00
- Arcteryx Theta SV - RRP USD$550.00

Kind of bullshit how the prices get jacked up massively for Australians. Those prices are direct from the Arcteryx site, through an American proxy. Below are the prices if I visit them without an American proxy (Australian IP).

- Arcteryx Theta SV - RRP AUD$899.00
- Arcteryx Sabre Jacket - Revised - RRP AUD$799.00

Considering AUD$1.00 buys USD$1.04 currently, it doesn't make much sense at all.


----------



## Lamps

mtw said:


> So thus far the two suggestions are:
> - Burton AK 3L Hover jacket
> - Arcteryx Sabre Jacket (Revised?)
> 
> EDIT: I don't mind going up/down a little from the $500 limit. I'm just trying to find the best possible options without going waaaaay over budget


This has been covered quite a few times there are two common dissenters - the anti goretex crowd (who largely complain due to price - other fabrics are as good a value is their point), and the comments along the lines of that's too much for any jacket

Putting that aside there are three names that will regularly pop up, specifically their 3L products

Burton AK 
Arcteryx
Norrona

I suspect that anybody else who's using 3L goretex is probably also making a pretty good quality garment too, but those three are the ones that are most often mentioned.


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## CMSbored

haha well i feel like an idiot wearing 10k sessions pants from 4 years ago. I have over 150 days in them and they still shed water (fucking unicorn pants)

i love goretex for gloves, i dont need it for anything else.


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## mtw

At this point I'm just tossing up between the Burton AK 3L and the Arcteryx Theta SV... Wish I could go somewhere and actually try on both, but there's no stores that stock them anywhere close to me


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## Sassicaia

mtw said:


> At this point I'm just tossing up between the Burton AK 3L and the Arcteryx Theta SV... Wish I could go somewhere and actually try on both, but there's no stores that stock them anywhere close to me


The Burton is designed/cut more with the snowboarder in mind.


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## KnoxBoarderX

mtw said:


> At this point I'm just tossing up between the Burton AK 3L and the Arcteryx Theta SV... Wish I could go somewhere and actually try on both, but there's no stores that stock them anywhere close to me


I would go with Burton AK 3L, it's simply awesome!


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## Sudden_Death

I'd search eBay for a Nike Juniper and spend the extra $250 or more on something else.


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## Lamps

KnoxBoarderX said:


> I would go with Burton AK 3L, it's simply awesome!


I havea hover jacket and will buy another one if mine ever wears out.


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## mtw

What is the difference between the AK 3L Freebird and Hover?


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## KnoxBoarderX

mtw said:


> What is the difference between the AK 3L Freebird and Hover?


A major difference is the fabric of the shell. The Freebird is a ripstop fabric, it makes it lighter. I personally like the fabric on the Hover better.


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## mtw

Yep, that's one of the problems with searching through all these. Comparing for example the two Arcteryx jackets I mentioned before (Theta SV and Sabre), you come across similar spec'd jackets and the only thing seemingly differentiating them is the code of the Gore-tex. But googling hasn't really gotten me anywhere in finding out the differences between the Gore-tex codes.

I do really like the Burton AK 3L Hover though...


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## Lamps

The goretex website describes the various fabrics.


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## mtw

Lamps said:


> The goretex website describes the various fabrics.


At the basic level; i.e. Active, Basic and Pro. I was more wondering about the specifications, for example the Theta SV jacket is listed as N150p GORE-TEX Pro. That falls under the Pro category obviously, but what does N150p mean?

It's probably irrelevant for me anyway (way more detail than I probably need to know), was just curious.

I'm leaning more and more towards the Burton AK 3L Hover jacket.

EDIT: Now the fun part of finding someone that has stock of the jacket and isn't way overpriced


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## hktrdr

Sassicaia said:


> I completely disagree with you (along with virtually every reviewer, user and countless top end manufactures that use the membrane). ANYONE can benefit from goretex. Its second to none for breathability which is critical, so even if you board and it NEVER rains its worth while. HOT?! its a shell and unless the manufacture ads an additional inner lining its not going to make you hot..ever. The fact its a shell is great because you can layer up or down based on your personal preference and weather conditions.
> 
> Goretex wont breath well if you dont wash it as the poors get clogged. Running is a sure way to do that quick because you are going to sweat a hell of a lot more then when boarding. You will compound the problem if you wear cotton underneath.


Erm, no. There are countless reviews, tests, and studies that clearly highlight that Gore-Tex is *not* the top performing fabric/membrane in the market - not even close.
What it is however, is a perfectly good product that still exceeds most people's requirement and that, decades after its introduction, still has a leading market position due to its first mover advantage/headstart and excellent work by the Gore marketing machine.

Have to agree with nivek, Gore-tex is pointless for the vast majority of riders - even 20/20 is more than most people need. And for the people who could benefit from Gore-Tex and similar, there are materials that perform much better at lower prices - but sadly not really for Snowboarding, as this is really market with relatively unsophisticated buyer and the segment with real high-end needs is too small to serve profitably for most suppliers.


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## Lamps

hktrdr said:


> Have to agree with nivek, Gore-tex is pointless for the vast majority of riders - even 20/20 is more than most people need. E]
> 
> I disagree with this, last year my wife bought some non goretex pants, maybe in the realm of burton poacher. These were only workable in cold dry conditions. First warm damp day and the pants were heavy and soaked. Goretex bought, problem solved. Even intermediate riders in the east will still have days where they will benefit. Plus I think you benefit on all days due to the breathability.
> 
> If you are still growing or really hard on your stuff and budget is an issue there are reasons to spend less but for her she will get years of use from a goretex outfit.


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## Sassicaia

hktrdr said:


> Erm, no. There are countless reviews, tests, and studies that clearly highlight that Gore-Tex is *not* the top performing fabric/membrane in the market - not even close.
> What it is however, is a perfectly good product that still exceeds most people's requirement and that, decades after its introduction, still has a leading market position due to its first mover advantage/headstart and excellent work by the Gore marketing machine.
> 
> Have to agree with nivek, Gore-tex is pointless for the vast majority of riders - even 20/20 is more than most people need. And for the people who could benefit from Gore-Tex and similar, there are materials that perform much better at lower prices - but sadly not really for Snowboarding, as this is really market with relatively unsophisticated buyer and the segment with real high-end needs is too small to serve profitably for most suppliers.


mmm..well I cant find a single (not one) review which says the goretex membrane isnt an industry leader at water proofing and breathability. I guess people will decide for themselves. In my 34 years of being on the mountains and living in a city that is classified a temperate rainforest its my experience that nothing beats goretex. There are, however, some membrane brands that come close or are just as good i.e. Gelenots comes to mind, but they are available in much fewer brands and styles. One complaint I would have about goretex is that they literally own the high end market, and probably make it hard for others to compete or enter.

Most 20k/20k substitutes are good enough from my experience, but goretex is simply better IMO. I notice a change in breathability at anything below 15k, and I personally wouldnt bother with water proofing below 20k if I expected to ever be in the wet. 

To each there own i guess.


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## ShredLife

hktrdr said:


> Erm, no. There are countless reviews, tests, and studies that clearly highlight that Gore-Tex is *not* the top performing fabric/membrane in the market - not even close.


sources please.


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## ShredLife

Sassicaia said:


> Most 20k/20k substitutes are good enough from my experience


for one season _maybe_


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## Sassicaia

ShredLife said:


> for one season _maybe_


hey...i agree. Like I said its goretex or nothing for me. Its simply the best. 20k/20k good enough for some who dont ride often I should say.

The other thing people need to realize is longevity. Fuck specs if after a few uses its not effective anymore. Goretex is garaunteed after 20 wash cycles, and retains it waterproofing and breathability after each wash. Try that with a Spider 20k/20k. I did and lets just say i felt bad donating it to Value Village after.


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## CMSbored

Sassicaia said:


> hey...i agree. Like I said its goretex or nothing for me. Its simply the best. 20k/20k good enough for some who dont ride often I should say.
> 
> The other thing people need to realize is longevity. Fuck specs if after a few uses its not effective anymore. Goretex is garaunteed after 20 wash cycles, and retains it waterproofing and breathability after each wash. Try that with a Spider 20k/20k. I did and lets just say i felt bad donating it to Value Village after.


i must not ride often enough because my cheap ass sessions 10k shit is still water repellant. either that or we have some super dry snow here in the Snowy Range (most likely the latter)


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## gstboy

mtw said:


> At the basic level; i.e. Active, Basic and Pro. I was more wondering about the specifications, for example the Theta SV jacket is listed as N150p GORE-TEX Pro. That falls under the Pro category obviously, but what does N150p mean?
> 
> It's probably irrelevant for me anyway (way more detail than I probably need to know), was just curious.
> 
> I'm leaning more and more towards the Burton AK 3L Hover jacket.
> 
> EDIT: Now the fun part of finding someone that has stock of the jacket and isn't way overpriced


proshell is thicker and more waterproof than softshell. The only reason I went with Goretex is because how light the shells are and you basically only need a baselayer under them to stay warm and dry.


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## mtw

Yep, that's why I'm looking at the gore-tex shells. I want a super light waterproof shell which I can wear regardless of where I'm riding. Then just layer up underneath that if necessary. I also want the purchase to last me 5+ years, so I'd rather do a larger outlay now to get a good product that will last.

Anyone seen any specials on the AK 3L Hover jacket?


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## Nivek

Sassicaia said:


> I completely disagree with you (along with virtually every reviewer, user and countless top end manufactures that use the membrane). ANYONE can benefit from goretex. Its second to none for breathability which is critical, so even if you board and it NEVER rains its worth while. HOT?! its a shell and unless the manufacture ads an additional inner lining its not going to make you hot..ever. The fact its a shell is great because you can layer up or down based on your personal preference and weather conditions.
> 
> Goretex wont breath well if you dont wash it as the poors get clogged. Running is a sure way to do that quick because you are going to sweat a hell of a lot more then when boarding. You will compound the problem if you wear cotton underneath.


I'm fucking with you all! I was bored as shit that night and wanted a fight. I love my running shell. Bike in it too actually. It's fucking money. Most people are buying outerwear every other year or so for fashion so for them Goretex is overkill. I get shit for free so I don't care regardless. But if I did have to get something that would stay premium for more than 2 years it would be Gore.

Though for gloves I've had better luck with Pow's and Celteks that use Hypora.


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## gstboy

mtw said:


> Yep, that's why I'm looking at the gore-tex shells. I want a super light waterproof shell which I can wear regardless of where I'm riding. Then just layer up underneath that if necessary. I also want the purchase to last me 5+ years, so I'd rather do a larger outlay now to get a good product that will last.
> 
> Anyone seen any specials on the AK 3L Hover jacket?


Anything AK is so popular that finding anything on sale in your size and color will be next to impossible unless you are willing to go second hand or if you fit those off sizes and colors like XL Akookoo Heat.


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## Sassicaia

Nivek said:


> I'm fucking with you all! I was bored as shit that night and wanted a fight. I love my running shell. Bike in it too actually. It's fucking money. Most people are buying outerwear every other year or so for fashion so for them Goretex is overkill. I get shit for free so I don't care regardless. But if I did have to get something that would stay premium for more than 2 years it would be Gore.
> 
> Though for gloves I've had better luck with Pow's and Celteks that use Hypora.


:laugh:

If you are board read the thread I started in the board section and give me your thoughts if you think the board is new or used.


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## mtw

gstboy said:


> Anything AK is so popular that finding anything on sale in your size and color will be next to impossible unless you are willing to go second hand or if you fit those off sizes and colors like XL Akookoo Heat.


Hmm interesting. I'll have a look around, hopefully there's something available.


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## Nivek

Sassicaia said:


> :laugh:
> 
> If you are board read the thread I started in the board section and give me your thoughts if you think the board is new or used.


Saw it. It's new. Just storage damage.


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## hktrdr

ShredLife said:


> sources please.


Like the ones I posted over three months ago in this very thread:


hktrdr said:


> I am sorry, but that is complete bullshit. A number of other fabrics (eVent is probably the best known one, but there are others) have been generally outperforming Gore-Tex for years, most notably in terms of breathability. There is a pretty well-known study conducted by the US military a few years ago that found the same.
> 
> That said, rating fabric breathability is non-trivial - different fabrics perform differently in different conditions, not all of which are practical or realistic. For instance, a number of these membranes have their best breathability measures when completely soaked - not ideal for most applications...
> 
> Still, it is clear that there are a number of fabrics that at least rival, if not exceed, the performance of Gore-Tex (not surprising, considering that Gore-Tex was invented almost 40 years ago). Stating that "no laminate comes close to Goretex in terms of waterproofing, breathability, and weight" is demonstrably false.
> 
> This page provides a pretty good summary for some of the materials available in the market.


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## Sassicaia

hktrdr said:


> Like the ones I posted over three months ago in this very thread:


 LOL!
You said 


hktrdr said:


> Gore-Tex is *not* the top performing fabric/membrane in the market - *not even close.*


Shred life asks for a source and you post a source which shows that goretex is in the #1 spot for breathability? and #2 spot for waterproofing at 28k?!

How is that "not even close" to a top performing fabric?

Showing sources to back up your point: yur doing it wrong.


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## hktrdr

Sassicaia said:


> LOL!
> You said
> 
> 
> Shred life asks for a source and you post a source which shows that goretex is in the #1 spot for breathability? and #2 spot for waterproofing at 28k?!
> 
> How is that "not even close" to a top performing fabric?
> 
> Showing sources to back up your point: yur doing it wrong.


Your are misquoting me. The part of my post that you selected to omit included a link to a study (very well known in the industry incidentally) for the US military that shows Gore-Tex absolutely getting trounced in comparison with other membranes.

The second part of my post (which you chose to repeat) was in response to another poster who had stated that "No laminate comes close to Goretex in terms of waterproofing, breathability, and weight."


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## Sassicaia

hktrdr said:


> Your are misquoting me. The part of my post that you selected to omit included a link to a study (very well known in the industry incidentally) for the US military that shows Gore-Tex absolutely getting trounced in comparison with other membranes.
> 
> The second part of my post (which you chose to repeat) was in response to another poster who had stated that "No laminate comes close to Goretex in terms of waterproofing, breathability, and weight."


I went to the only link you provided in your post.

You also said this in the same post which isnt consistent with saying goretex is "not even close" to be ing a top performer. 



hktrdr said:


> Still, it is clear that there are a number of fabrics that at least rival, if not exceed, the performance of Gore-Tex


There are some that rival, but goretex is a top performer, and outperform 99% of everything on the market. I wont dispute that there are some other top performers out there that rival it.


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## Lamps

hopefully the original poster has bought a hover jacket by now and never returned to this fiasco of a thread....


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## mtw

Lamps said:


> hopefully the original poster has bought a hover jacket by now and never returned to this fiasco of a thread....


Wasn't the OP, but did revive this thread.... Still check in from time to time for a laugh


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## hktrdr

Sassicaia said:


> I went to the only link you provided in your post.
> 
> You also said this in the same post which isnt consistent with saying goretex is "not even close" to be ing a top performer.


There were *two* links in the post, including a scientific study in which Gore-Tex was not even close to the top performers - just as i had stated before. Funny that...


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## ARSENALFAN

All I know is that my Goretex outfit and merino wool ninja suit did the trick today. Most comforatable I have ever been. Not a drop of perspiration.


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## Triple8Sol

What's with all the gore-tex humping? I have currently and in the past had plenty of gore-tex stuff, pants, gloves, etc... but it is pretty widely known that it is no longer the best. It's been surpassed by plenty of others that are just as waterproof but far more breathable. If this is the direction of this thread and others that are sure to come, you really ought to be preaching about eVent, OmniDry, NeoShell, DryQ, etc...


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## Sassicaia

Triple8Sol said:


> What's with all the gore-tex humping? I have currently and in the past had plenty of gore-tex stuff, pants, gloves, etc... but it is pretty widely known that it is no longer the best. It's been surpassed by plenty of others that are just as waterproof but far more breathable. If this is the direction of this thread and others that are sure to come, you really ought to be preaching about eVent, OmniDry, NeoShell, DryQ, etc...


The point of the debate was that someone said goretext doesnt even come close to some of the other new techs which is false. There are plenty of other good brands such as the ones you mentioned which compete with goretext at the high end. No one is fare superior with at best splitting hairs differences between them i.e. goretex has better breathability then eVent .

The fact is top top end techs are all great, and beyond 20k/20k. I doubt anyone (myself included) would be able to determine much a performance difference between the top brands when snowboarding.


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## miles1717

gstboy said:


> proshell is thicker and more waterproof than softshell. The only reason I went with Goretex is because how light the shells are and you basically only need a baselayer under them to stay warm and dry.


Aside from the some of the silliness in this thread, it's actually been really informative. Thanks everybody. 

One question though. On Burton's site, they list the AK 3L Hover Jacket as using two different GoreTex fabrics depending on the color. The "Acid and True Black" colorways are listed as using GoreTex Pro, and the "Schwag and Bluebird" colorways are listed as using GoreTex Soft Shell. Now, none of these 3L Hover jackets have liners or anything, so is there really going to be a noticeable difference between, say, the Hover Jacket in black or the Hover Jacket in blue?

Here's the link to Burton's Hover jacket page.


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## Lamps

miles1717 said:


> Aside from the some of the silliness in this thread, it's actually been really informative. Thanks everybody.
> 
> One question though. On Burton's site, they list the AK 3L Hover Jacket as using two different GoreTex fabrics depending on the color. The "Acid and True Black" colorways are listed as using GoreTex Pro, and the "Schwag and Bluebird" colorways are listed as using GoreTex Soft Shell. Now, none of these 3L Hover jackets have liners or anything, so is there really going to be a noticeable difference between, say, the Hover Jacket in black or the Hover Jacket in blue?
> 
> Here's the link to Burton's Hover jacket page.


The fabrics are slightly different but same performance in terms of breathability. The backing on the pro shell is flat, almost same as the exterior, whereas the soft shell backing is a very very thin, fleecelike layer and the material is slightly more supple. It's worth having both in front of you to see the difference. Most years they do four colours, two in each material, same as this year. 

I don't think that the soft shell is supposed to be warmer, just a little softer and more comfortable. 

Personally I prefer the pro-shell, it feels tougher, and it's not like you wear it without a base layer. I could see the soft shell for pants if you weren't wearing a base layer. Oh, and I think that the women's ak 3L are always done in 3L soft shell but not certain.


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## miles1717

Thanks, Lamps. I tried on the Schwag color in store (which is the GoreTex Soft Shell) and it seemed like a solid, tough, durable jacket that will last a long time. They unfortunately didn't have any other colors in stock, but if there's no difference in breathability or waterproofing, I can't see it being a big deal. Both options are 3L serious-ass shells. I like that blue color that they make.


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## gstboy

miles1717 said:


> Aside from the some of the silliness in this thread, it's actually been really informative. Thanks everybody.
> 
> One question though. On Burton's site, they list the AK 3L Hover Jacket as using two different GoreTex fabrics depending on the color. The "Acid and True Black" colorways are listed as using GoreTex Pro, and the "Schwag and Bluebird" colorways are listed as using GoreTex Soft Shell. Now, none of these 3L Hover jackets have liners or anything, so is there really going to be a noticeable difference between, say, the Hover Jacket in black or the Hover Jacket in blue?
> 
> Here's the link to Burton's Hover jacket page.


My experience with Goretex hasn't been with Burton but with Arcteryx. None of the Burton stuff fits well on me and I can never find the color I want. I would go with other goretex equivalents if the styles were better. I can't find anything that fits and looks better than Arcteryx so I will pay their price to wear their stuff. 

I don't really care about the brands, I have a relative that works for columbia and I can get stuff from her for a deep discount but I choose Arcteryx because I can't find anything from Columbia that I like and fits me as well. For all I know everything like omni-heat or dryq event could be all better than goretex but the style I like is only offered in goretex so that's why I go with it. It's not like we are all going to go cross-country skiing mount Everest anytime soon.


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## hktrdr

Sassicaia said:


> The point of the debate was that someone said goretext doesnt even come close to some of the other new techs which is false.


No, it is true. The first link that I provided (as well as numerous other studies and reports) is pretty conclusive on this.



Sassicaia said:


> There are plenty of other good brands such as the ones you mentioned which compete with goretext at the high end. No one is fare superior with at best splitting hairs differences between them i.e. *goretex has better breathability then eVent* .


It does not.


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## Lamps

miles1717 said:


> Thanks, Lamps. I tried on the Schwag color in store (which is the GoreTex Soft Shell) and it seemed like a solid, tough, durable jacket that will last a long time. They unfortunately didn't have any other colors in stock, but if there's no difference in breathability or waterproofing, I can't see it being a big deal. Both options are 3L serious-ass shells. I like that blue color that they make.


I just compared my wife's soft shell with my pro shell, it's a subtle difference, hardly matters.


----------



## Peyto

Any canucks have experience snowboarding in Mountain Equipment Co-op (MEC) gore-tex shells? 

I use a Synergy Jacket for hiking but have never taken it out on the slopes. Any good reason not to?


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## seriouscat

saloman said:


> Any canucks have experience snowboarding in Mountain Equipment Co-op (MEC) gore-tex shells?
> 
> I use a Synergy Jacket for hiking but have never taken it out on the slopes. Any good reason not to?


No reason not to. Goretex fabric layering itself is pretty universal if same material is used. They will only allow certain fabrics to combo with certain membranes. That jacket is a 3 layer so it has to meet the range of specification per Gore. A pure ski jacket could potential be using a harder more durable material per manufacturer specs, but I doubt it's going to a drastic difference. In general no one wants to use a proshell unless it's extreme wet weather/snow/ice since the proshell has worse breath-ability. Especially compared to some of the newer technologies out there.

As taken from Gore-tex forums:

Gore-Tex Pro Shell is a "3-Layer" product. The 3 layers are: 1-Outer "Shell" layer, generally a nylon of sorts. 2-Inner "Gore-Tex Pro Shell" waterproof/breathable membrane, and 3-Inner "liner" fabric, for Pro-Shell it's usually a product called Gore Micro Grid Backer or something similar meant to wick moisture away from your body and start the transfer process. All 3 of these layers are laminated into essentially 1 layer. So, even though it says it's a 3 layer, it feels like 1.

Gore-Tex Performance Shell is usually a "2-Layer" product. The 2 layers are: 1-Outer shell layer, and 2-Gore-Tex membrane laminated to the outer shell, Then there's a thin inner liner that not laminated to the outer/membrane layers.

Gore-Tex Paclite Shell is sometimes referred to as a 2.5 layer. It's got an outer shell layer that has a special Gore-Tex membrane laminated to it. The membrane in this case has been designed to be worn directly against your skin/clothes so an additional inner layer isn't needed.


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## Peyto

seriouscat said:


> No reason not to. Goretex fabric layering itself is pretty universal if same material is used. They will only allow certain fabrics to combo with certain membranes. That jacket is a 3 layer so it has to meet the range of specification per Gore.


:thumbsup:Thanks, that was the explanation I was looking for!


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## cc898

You guys are all going on about stuff you could never in a million years tell apart. If its dry its dry! Nothing on the market actually breathes to a point that 99.9% of people would ever notice. If you like it and it fits well buy it, stay dry, ignore the "breathable" factor.

I happen to love Westcomb, its tough, fits me well and uses Event, which I like. 

And if you want breathable gore....the only one is XCR! HAHAHAHHA


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## laxinchili

I did thorough gore pro shell (so if you are looking at other materials, this wont really help!!) shopping for this winder, something fresh from this current season. I tried all the major brands available @ REI with my helmet, midlayer, etc before buying. Here are some thoughts from my time/experiences shopping around:

arc sidewinder: offset zipper too annoying when not fully zipped. sick jacket if you can get over that little fact, but I wanted something that could also be worn casually off the slopes. also noted that I didn't really like colors available - but the design of the jacket itself is sick - it does look great. The zipper is what killed it for me.

pata powslayer: now this one for me the best in S since it's huge. I really wanted to buy this one, but the hood could not fit ANY ONE helmet @ the seattle REI (buying coat + helmet this winter). It was pathetic, and me along with a couple of the staff couldn't believe that a $680 coat made for skiing, advertised as having a ski helmet compatible hood, had what seemed to be this blatant design flaw
Went to the pata store, had one of their employees help me fit it with a helmet they had - a smith vantage (I was still in disbelief this hood was too small for a helmet - that and I really liked the coat except this fact)... well sure enough, we could not get it to fit at the store, as much as the other employees joined in and tried helping... 
I ended up e-mailing patagonia asking them what helmet they designed their so called helmet compatible hood with, and I got a reply saying the Giro nine.10... went back to REI, tried it, and sure enough, the hood is simply to big to fully go over the helmet... again we had a laugh with the staff after I told them about the e-mail...
I actually did email patagonia back, and I made them aware of this issue -they confirmed they were NOT aware of it - yet they wouldn't even acknowledge it!! they apologized for the inconvenience and told me to have a great day... sigh I really liked that coat, but if they wont even make an attempt to fix this... not putting my money there
I feel bad for anyone purchases this expensive coat in a S or M like I was trying, gets to the mountain, it starts snowing, and has to come to the nice realization that the hood doesn't fit.

I ended up settling for the North Face FreeThinker... The fit wasn't as nice on me as the pata (since I'm tall and pata's stuff seems to be cut bigger than normal- their S works for me but TNF S is way too short), BUT the hood fit perfectly with my smith maze, and it just feels all around great. It feels like it does not inhibit range of motion looking around with everything on, just feels like it was designed and cut very well (this is not to say the other's aren't - everything you find in this price range is - I just want to stress that I really do like the work/thought put into the freethinker) I am very happy with it and I think it looks sick!
I am glad I shopped around before settling as I am someone who gets terrible buyers' remorse post expensive purchases. 
The Enzo is 50 bux cheaper, but I liked the look of the FreeThinker - since they come in different color combinations. The latter is also more bombproof (thicker shell - although every coat here has lifetime warranty)


anyways, I hope my first hand experiences help someone here!


----------

