# My heelside turns are always side-slipping. Neutral position with soft knees is already behind heels. Hitting a progression wall because of it.



## Rip154 (Sep 23, 2017)

Force yourself to think of the edges as wheels somehow. If the board fits you properly you should be able to just roll from edge to edge in turns. Can try tuning angle on back foot to 0, just to boost turning a little at first. Dig up the basement video from this forum, might pick up something useful. Theres also the dolphin dance video with more advanced movements. Should have them stickied for new forumers really. Great entertainment value as well, but they are helpful in visualising how to do it.

You want to learn how to ride edges, so you have to do that. Find a quiet spot and ride one edge to the other side of the slope, then turn and go back. Keep a hand down to balance if needed. When you think you got it, find an easy slope and try to link them with long drawn out turns, just focusing on putting pressure on each edge. When you got that down, you can start arching out to the side in bigger turns and getting lower, while still riding the edge. Alot of it is abs and leg strength to stay comfortably balanced. Wrong shoes and board width/flex can mess it up when learning.

If you aren’t catching edges, and can control yourself on the hill so you don’t hit people, I’d just try to work on it alone. Lessons can be confusing until you figure out the muscle memory. Just gotta practice.


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## DRexNL (Jan 2, 2022)

Have you adjusted the forward lean on your highbacks?


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## Elevation212 (Apr 21, 2019)

I’m just some goon so take this with a grain of salt but for a quick form check I like to find a mellow green/blue that’s open with limited traffic and start making turns where I really let my edge sink in, to do this I grab the knees of my bibs or belt buckle area while focusing on keeping my back as straight as possible, this forces me into a sitting position and I can feel if I’m tugging on either knee and this shifting my weight out of 50/50. I then start making turns sinking my weight into my heels (and toes but you didn’t ask about that) and make micro adjustments until I feel that smooth non chattery turn. Once I lock in on that feeling I like to start experimenting with flexing my rear knee inwards to exentuate the mid/back end of the turn and experiment with flexing my toes towards my shins to plant the edge further into the snow and really feel that smooth ass turn. I also try to keep my eyes over my shoulder and looking toward the side of the run (all while holding those knees) while experimenting with turn angles and speed

all of this let’s me get the feeling of a carve, once I know what it should feel like I can start to iterate on my form with a reference feeling for what I’m trying to replicate

few other thoughts

make sure to do this on mellow terrain, real carving picks up speed, that’s why dudes like knapton don’t do their shit on steeps

consider crash pants, it’s a lot easier to lay over into deep ass carves if you’ve got some padding on your booty for inevitable spills

when my heel edge is rocking it feels like I’m leaning back in a chair and my edge is gliding with no friction

if you really want to feel that heel edge push yourself to go low enough to grab the deck between your feet while carving your heel side , it’s a fun little trick and it forces you to go low and work on edge control, certainly not the right “form” as you have to scrunch up but it’s a fun way to mix it up and feel that edge grab

finally check your deck to ensure it’s the right size, washy edges often comes from a deck that isn’t stiff enough/has enough edge to hold your weight


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## Donutz (May 12, 2010)

Something that's rarely mentioned in cases of heelside turn issues is the shape of your turn. This has been my problem and I've seen it on the slopes with other people. You might have a nice semi-circular path when doing toeside turns, but a sharp dogleg at the beginning of your heelside turn, which turns into almost a braking maneuver.

You can either get someone to video you from the bottom of a run, or do a run on untouched snow so you can see your track. This problem results in chatter every time.


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## speedjason (May 2, 2013)

Your problem is your turn initiation and well as body position and weight distribution. Too much back foot ruddering instead of a smooth transition from front foot to the back foot. Too much weight on the back foot causing the edge to slip. Also, you are not going fast enough for the edges to work it's way into the snow as well as being relatively upright and straight legged.
Try to go a little bit faster as well as changing to heel side edge just before the your board pointing to the fall line.
Honestly, don't expect too much after 17 days of snowboarding. I have snowboarded over 300 days in 10 season and still learning and perfecting.


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## robotfood99 (Mar 19, 2016)

Link 2 - that's not sitting back. It's more like hanging your ass out, which will surely mess up your weight distribution. 
Link 3 - ideally, find a wall you can lean against and work on going down lower, until you are almost doing squats. A dining chair ain't gonna support your big frame. 

In both of your pics, you don't seem to be putting much pressure on your shins. Lean into the boot tongues more and let your boots support you. That will naturally flex your ankles, bend/drop your knees, and lower your center-of-mass. 

You have to figure out how to lower your center-of-mass. If this means sumo squats because of your physique, then do it. Widen your stance and go hamertime if it helps you. You need to learn how to lower your center of mass or you will not progress into a fluid, dynamic posture.


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## speedjason (May 2, 2013)

robotfood99 said:


> Link 2 - that's not sitting back. It's more like hanging your ass out, which will surely mess up your weight distribution.
> Link 3 - ideally, find a wall you can lean against and work on going down lower, until you are almost doing squats. A dining chair ain't gonna support your big frame.
> 
> In both of your pics, you don't seem to be putting much pressure on your shins. Lean into the boot tongues more and let your boots support you. That will naturally flex your ankles, bend/drop your knees, and lower your center-of-mass.
> ...


Here is a video showing how the edge should feel.


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## Board Doctor (Feb 1, 2018)

Another opinion… you’re not really riding the edge and your weight is too far back. Lean forward over your front foot to initiate the turn. With a bit more speed, you’ll get it up on edge and ride it through the side cut, Without skidding.

On a well-groomed, easy green run you might want to practice edge transitioning by trying some quick under-carves (look it up). When you get going too fast, just skid/speed check and start again. This will get you use to riding the edge, rather than the base, as well as carrying some momentum down the fall line.


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## NT.Thunder (Jan 4, 2020)

speedjason said:


> Your problem is your turn initiation and well as body position and weight distribution. Too much back foot ruddering instead of a smooth transition from front foot to the back foot. Too much weight on the back foot causing the edge to slip. Also, you are not going fast enough for the edges to work it's way into the snow as well as being relatively upright and straight legged.
> Try to go a little bit faster as well as changing to heel side edge just before the your board pointing to the fall line.
> Honestly, don't expect too much after 17 days of snowboarding. I have snowboarded over 300 days in 10 season and still learning and perfecting.


Yeah just looking at the first video there's a lot of this ^

Weight distribution is an issue, your COG is all over the place both front and heel side. Very stiff and upright.

I'd watch some of Malcom Moores videos, he's really good or if you have a year to read it - this thread will be a game changer for you - Here


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## Snowdaddy (Feb 2, 2018)




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## DaveMcI (Aug 19, 2013)

I dk if anyone has said this yet but ur bindings/ boots might be hitting the snow pushing you out of carves. Also sharpness of edges can make a big imact


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## speedjason (May 2, 2013)

DaveMcI said:


> I dk if anyone has said this yet but ur bindings/ boots might be hitting the snow pushing you out of carves. Also sharpness of edges can make a big imact


yeahhhh if you saw his video and knowing he's only snowboarded 15 days total you will know he is barely carving.


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## Board Doctor (Feb 1, 2018)

speedjason said:


> Here is a video showing how the edge should feel.


That’s a good video, though he appears to bend at the waist a little and stick his butt out a bit. I really ought to video myself sometime and see how bad I look!

His ‘edge rolls’ is what I referred to as under carving.


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## speedjason (May 2, 2013)

Board Doctor said:


> That’s a good video, though he appears to bend at the waist a little and stick his butt out a bit. I really ought to video myself sometime and see how bad I look!
> 
> His ‘edge rolls’ is what I referred to as under carving.


Bending waist is not an issue as long as you are also bending your knees at the same time.
Too many people bending waist but keeping the knees straight.


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## finboy (12 mo ago)

Full disclosure, total noob here but 34 days in last year and a couple in this season. Quality instructors are absolutely key, if you find one you like stick with them.

from your pictures, and this is the only reason I’m hopping in here, how is your hip mobility? Last year I found when watching videos of my riding that I was really stiff, and when I thought I was leaning over it was barely any motion and mostly from the spine. I also struggled to keep an edge on heel side turns, and found improvement through mobility and specific muscle exercises. I started doing a LOT of yoga on top of the gym to undo years of desk jockey body, after a couple consistent months my range of motion and muscle stamina are way better and I could definitely feel the improvements this year.

From those limited photos and your description, you look like you might have tight hamstrings/stiff hips, which would make me think you don’t want to just look at ankle flexion but also getting more strength in your glutes and quads, and really work on flexing out your calves, hamstrings, glutes, and psoas areas. Technique can only take you so far if your body doesn’t have the stability and mobility to hold in a position that isn’t entirely natural.

possible suggestions beyond what you have, mobility duo have some good exercises (though their TikTok style can be a bit cringe), and tommie bennet actually has some really good stuff lately while he is rehabbing his labrum from surgery (try doing but to ground squats with the snowboard in a green run).

anyways, take it with a grain of salt, best of luck!


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## TrimbleFunky (4 mo ago)

--EDIT--

I read your post wrong and thought you were referring to heelside carving issues. Nevermind.


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## Board Doctor (Feb 1, 2018)

This just popped up as a recommended video and should also serve you well:





I really like Malcom Moores style.


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## Mike256 (Oct 13, 2013)

try to tuck your back knee forward and in (ie pushing knee in the direction towards being behind/backside of your front knee). It will help drive a solid heelside carve following your front foot rather than pushing your tail out.


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## TrimbleFunky (4 mo ago)

I just took a look.
Notice you are looking more to the side of the run toeside. Notice as the heelside progresses you are looking downhill and not to the side. It affects your body position and intention in subtle ways.

For your next lessons, go for L2+ for PSIA/AASI, preferably L3. You don't want someone up and coming to take pot shots in the dark to solve your issues. Book several lessons. Costly, but one private lesson for the day with an L3 is likely 50+ days of self riding and fiddling around.

Newbie instructors are great for babysitting, or for general guest experiences. Link some whatever and off you go. They are almost useless for anyone with a drive to improve.

You will likely blow past L3 even if you are looking for competition levels of performance for the area you are specialized in.


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## wrathfuldeity (Oct 5, 2007)

speedjason said:


> Your problem is your *turn initiation and well as body position and weight distribution.* Too much back foot ruddering instead of a smooth transition from front foot to the back foot. Too much weight on the back foot causing the edge to slip. Also, you are not going fast enough for the edges to work it's way into the snow as well as being relatively upright and straight legged.
> Try to go a little bit faster as well as changing to heel side edge just before the your board pointing to the fall line.
> Honestly, don't expect too much after 17 days of snowboarding. I have snowboarded over 300 days in 10 season and still learning and perfecting.


^Agree, it's a combo from the short vid... another way to look at what @speedjason notes is your timing is off.... it lags or is latent, you are sitting too back in the seat and not initiating toward the toeside side turn soon enough. Basically, you are too backseat and it's hard to initiate from there. Get on your nose sooner. Look at the creepy basement vid and notice that you can ride with your elbows resting on your knees. Also check your stance width. Maybe do a drill of point your turns with your leading hand. It forces you to be on the nose and get your body rotating into the turn.


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## philw (8 mo ago)

People have picked out specific things, but to me it just looks like you need a lot more time riding. It's more like learning to play the piano or learning to surf than learning to drive. 

In my country people who only do two or three weeks on snow each season mostly never progress much beyond where you are there. It takes more practice. And it should not be spread too thinly. I don't know anyone good who didn't either ride full seasons [every day, all winter], or practiced on artificial surfaces every week year round.

I'm not trying to be discouraging, just pointing out that there's not going to be a quick fix. Well, the fix is to do more than 17/2 days a year, for a few years until you've nailed it.


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## money4me247 (3 mo ago)

For the first video, your knees are too straight and you seem a bit stiff. 
I think refer to this video for how to move your body and pressure through turns. These tips and drills should help you become more dynamic with your riding.





For bending knees more, think about pressing the front of your shins forward more. for toe side, make sure your hips stay forward while bending the knees. for heel side, try to keep your torso upright and 'sit back' into a chair while pressing forward with your shins and lifting your toes.

for your 2nd photo where you are bending forward, you are bending at the waist too much. you want to keep your torso upright so your weight stays over your edge. you want to lift your toes/press forward with your shins. I'm not sure what you are practicing with that photo as I don't think that position is good form for either toe or heel turns. For toe turns, you want to keep your hips forward (press shins forward and bend knees). For heel turns, you want to be sitting back (shins forward and lift toes). In that photo, you are just bending forward at the waist, which isn't helpful for either turn and it will throw off your balance when riding. 

for the 3rd photo where you are sitting back, you need to be lifting your toes and pressing forward with your shins at the same time to get into right form.

You should be using a very aggressive forward lean to help you get in the right position with pressing your shins forward and keeping your ankles flexed.

You should continue to take videos of your riding and comparing it to something like Nev Lapwood from snowboard addiction.

When you are on the slopes, pick on thing at a time to focus on, and keep practicing!

I think you are fine for two seasons in. The most important thing is to improve your form, and everything else is easier.


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## foe (Feb 10, 2017)

I think you are overthinking the flexibility stuff. Sure, work on improving it but your turning is a technique issue.

First things: bending your knees does not mean you have to be doing deep squats on your board. Bending knees = don't ride with stiff legs. Instead, flex and extend your legs (i.e. bend your knees - and ankles and hips) through each turn and also to handle uneven terrain.
Watch this clip of Malcom Moore from 4:36 for about 30 seconds. His up and down movements through the turns are pretty subtle (no deep squats): 




Also watch his heelside turn at around 4:04 and notice how he bends his knees to absorb the bumpy terrain helping him stay in control through the turn: 




A good exercise to loosen up your legs and get used to bending your knees is to traverse a bumpy slope (even moguls) using your legs to absorb the bumps and trying to keep your head and body level throughout. Work your legs independently up, over and down each bump, a bit like a car's suspension. Keep your chest up to avoid bending at the waist.

Second, as mentioned already, you need to practice riding your edges more. Find a wide mellow slope (ideally earlier in the day when it is still freshly groomed) and practice this (7:07): 




You will be using the shape of your boards sidecut to ride in an arc by balancing on the boards edge. This will make a much bigger arc than when you skid the board round so you will need to be patient and not kick the board around with your back leg. Check your surroundings for traffic and start by pointing the board down the fall line. Gently lean onto your edge and use subtle movements to balance on it (e.g. lift/lower your toes, bend your knees to absorb bumps, sink your shins into the front of your boots etc.). Make sure you keep your shoulders aligned with the board and *feel the sidecut doing the work to make the turn* - this bit is key - avoid the temptation to force the turn at all. As you end up traversing the fall line you will slow right down ready for your next turn.
When you are comfortable linking these turns, start changing your edge as you cross the fall line instead of when you are pointing down the fall line (rewatch the relevant video above). Use the "pedalling" technique to help make smooth edge changes.
By this point you can start twisting your board and manipulating the shape and size of your turns. A simple tip to start with is bring your knees together on toeside turns and spread them apart on heelside turns. Someone above mentioned tucking in your back knee. Try these out, play around and see what effect they have on your turns. You can also start bringing back shoulder and arm movement into play. Just have to make sure you are not reverting to pushing out your tail into skids again.

Lastly, in your video you are sticking to a relatively narrow corridor down the slope. This doesn't leave you enough time and space to complete your turns using smooth arcs (controlling your speed by traversing the fall line) and instead you are skidding each turn to bleed off speed to get back to a speed you are comfortable with. There's a limit to how tight you can make your turns without skidding so if you do want to stick to a narrow corridor learn how to do cross-under turns (think someone above mentioned them above). I won't go into that but there's a good example from 1:47 to about 2:10 in this classic video: 




Good luck!


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## Myoko (Dec 11, 2018)

Been practicing this for years both goofy and natural, not a boss at it by any means but the 'drive through your turn' and practice little hops to make sure you are centred is something I'm going to try this season. I did notice a massive gap between his shin and the front of his boots which will massively slow your transitions down, way more than you think.


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## drblast (Feb 28, 2017)

You are overthinking this, and all this detailed advice will probably cause you to overthink it more. Immediately from the video the problem is simple: you're too stiff, your weight is not forward enough, and you're riding slowly and timidly on shallow runs trying to perfect that while overanalyzing everything. You need to get on steeper runs, loosen up, and eat shit once in a while. If you're not falling you're not learning.

"Bend your knees more" is terrible beginner advice because it sounds like it's the angle of your knees that's a problem. It's not; it's that your knees are locked into whatever angle you are "sitting" and you can't balance that way nor can you turn a board. What people should be telling you is "loosen up your lower body and flex your knees as you ride." Look at your video again. Your knees stay at the same angle and you look like a green plastic army man from Toy Story. Doesn't matter that your knees are bent if they're not flexing. You should be bent slightly in a "neutral" position because that allows you to extend your legs or squat further depending on the terrain and how you need to turn.

Snowboarding is not "squat down low and hold that position" it's "squat down so you're doing little squats with your legs constantly to absorb the terrain while your upper body hardly moves at all." Lower body needs to be looooooooose like a spring.

The good news is that you just need some practice and you'll be fine. Challenge yourself.


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## MerroStep (2 mo ago)

Hey everyone, after experiencing this problem last week (2nd day of the season), I hit the resort earlier today. One of the biggest things I was trying to be mindful of is being more weighted on the front foot, although this felt weird to me as I was playing around with weight pressure, and even with full pressure on the front foot only, I found I was _still_ overrotating.

What I noticed however, was that while all my weight was on the front foot, the foot is applying pressure from only a single area: *the inside edge of my heel*. This made me realize that a lack of even pressure across the entirety of the heel meant that much of the pressure was being applied towards the middle of my board, causing an overrotation where the middle of the board is the axis of rotation.

I then realized that my aggressive binding angles (+18/-18, +15/-15, and +21/21) was what made it difficult for me to apply *even pressure across my entire heel*. So I decided to throw a sledgehammer at my angles and tweaked it to +9/-9.

_*Low and behold, the binding angle adjustment was all we really needed to fix.*_ For an intermediate level, I felt fully in control of my board, linking turns cleanly moving down blue groomers and picking up good speed. Creating a steady rhythm and bounce with dynamic movements. I was able to achieve dynamic turns on blues even with my hands behind my back, isolating any potential counter-rotation of the upper-body. I felt confident running a (mostly) flat base along flat tracks. And I was even able to achieve a 50/50 on an extra small box at the terrain park!

My mind is a bit blown at how easy of a fix this was, and how big of a progression wall we were able to push through at the beginning of my second season. My goals now this season are to achieve proper carving technique, focus on my switch riding, and be able to do extra small terrain features comfortably!

Still considering getting a private instructor for a half-day lesson in hopes that it accelerates my progression far faster than I can achieve solo.

Think a few of you have referenced Malcolm Moore. I absolute _love_ his videos and I credit him as the content creator who pushed my abilities from a beginner to an intermediate. It feels nice to now be able to put a lot of what I have tried learning into greater practice after breaking past this progression wall.


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## Snowdaddy (Feb 2, 2018)

MerroStep said:


> and even with full pressure on the front foot only, I found I was _still_ overrotating.


It’s because that’s not your problem. You’re not doing large enough smooth C-turns and you’re not pressuring your edges right. You don’t actually need to “carve” to do proper turns.

Some people get into the backseat while not pressuring their edge, but in essence it doesn’t matter if you have weight in your front foot if you never use your back foot and apply proper force to the entire edge of the board. 

Watch the snowboard addiction. There are at least two very instructive videos on edge control. I think Malcome something something has a video of opening and closing the door that is instructive.


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## TrimbleFunky (4 mo ago)

Inside edge of heel + those angles.
Ok, so AASI has this thing which I despise, because I feel it is inaccurate if actually done at higher levels.

At duck stances, pressuring your heel edge is actually on the outside of your heels, aka "cowboy your knees out" to facilitate this. Toeside? Knees in, because it's on the inside edge of your toes. You moving to a less extreme duck stance hides this issue.

To be frank, this should just happen normally if everything else is right; and doing this consciously when everything else is close enough to right is not what you want to be doing. Glad it worked out for you. Something to keep in mind.

Also likely you were on the inside edge of your heel on the front foot because you were back footed. Even most good riders are too back footed at turn initiation; it's a really bad habit. You are esentially going from a 0 degree slope traversing across the fall line, to a whatever degree slope as the board seeks the fall line at the beginning phases of the turn.

Keep this in mind when you do jump turns on steep terrain. You are instantly going from 0 to 45+ degrees; and you have to engage the edge for a split second before it whips back around across. Otherwise you will be doing jump side slips (jump, rotate board around, side-slip 50 feet while sh*tting your pants). Furthermore if you don't do this, it is highly likely you will get stuck attempting to whip the board around as the back end of your board runs into the slope.


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## QReuCk2 (11 mo ago)

MerroStep said:


> This is my second full season. Went 15 times last season, 2 times this season. I'm 5'10", 167lb, and ride a 154cm board with a reference stance of 54cm. I consider myself a low intermediate. Can typically ride cruiser blues from top-to-bottom without falling or taking considerable pauses.
> 
> I've taken a few lessons (2 one-hour privates on a sloped carpet, one group lesson) to clean up technique, but I found my instructors not too stellar for trying to address this problem. I started realizing this issue midway through last season, and have just been unable to fix it since. For all other technique, I've used YouTube pretty heavily (Snowboard Addiction and Malcolm Moore in particular were YouTubers whose videos really helped with me progressing to an intermediate stage.
> 
> ...


OK, sorry if this has already been said. 
I've watched the first video and already see things in this.
What I see in these turns is what french instructors called something you could translate into "involuntary skidded directional effect". This is typically exacerbated when several things happen:

slight overloading of the back foot.
very light edge angle.

Let's adress first the edge angle problem. This is NOT linked with any stiffness of any body joint from what I see. I mean you looked stiff, but you also could absolutely not skidd while still being as stiff as in this video. And by the way you look more stiff because you're affraid than because of anything wrong in your body. Also heeledge your not supposed to have extreme dorsiflexion so I don't think that'd be a factor.
For your level of ability, it's usually easier to have more edge angle by inclination than by angulation. I would say you just need to lay a tiny bit more in your turn, and trust the sidecut radius to keep you upright. You probably would want a tiny bit more speed than in the video to achieve that. Which will bring me to a conclusion: you need to be in an more friendly environment to generate more confidence. Better groomed less inclined slope and if possible with less people. Once your confident with the setting, maybe just almost try to fall to the inside of the turn. Chances are you won't fall at all, and even if you do, you'll discover that this is a lot softer a fall that falling to the outside so you shouldn't really be frightened.

Now on to the backfoot loading thing. This can be conscioulsy worked on to a point. Even if slightly counterintuitive, you should really try to put weight on the front foot at the initiation of the turn. But this will only go so far if you are affraid of the slope and the speed generated by the fact of going downhill instead of sideways. So as for the first point, you really should go to the easiest possible circumstances until you gain enough confidence to feel alright with not being on the backfoot.

It's difficult to judge from just a video and a pair of non-riding pictures, but that's what I have in mind as a first priority.


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## bazman (Jan 15, 2017)

Malcolm Moore just posted a vid about it


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## QReuCk2 (11 mo ago)

MerroStep said:


> Hey everyone, after experiencing this problem last week (2nd day of the season), I hit the resort earlier today. One of the biggest things I was trying to be mindful of is being more weighted on the front foot, although this felt weird to me as I was playing around with weight pressure, and even with full pressure on the front foot only, I found I was _still_ overrotating.
> 
> What I noticed however, was that while all my weight was on the front foot, the foot is applying pressure from only a single area: *the inside edge of my heel*. This made me realize that a lack of even pressure across the entirety of the heel meant that much of the pressure was being applied towards the middle of my board, causing an overrotation where the middle of the board is the axis of rotation.
> 
> ...


I'm glad you've made progresses. Anyway I have to comment on some points.
_*"Low and behold, the binding angle adjustment was all we really needed to fix."*_
That probably helped (more on this later). Anyway, it was hardly ALL you really needed to fix based on the video. I don't retract my previous comment.

Now about angles. I myself experimented au lot with the backfoot angle. My conclusion to this day, even if not endorsed by the best snowboard instructor I ever encountered (even he didn't managed to change my mind on this), is that extreme duck stances tend to mess with board torsion between bindings if you're not very carefull with back knee orientation during backside turns. Tucking the knee in with duck will apply torsion to the board. It is of course dependant on the torsional flex of the board and the back foot angle. In my experience with boards I own, -12 this effect is noticeable, -9 is manageable and -6 is pretty much neutral. My personal sweet spot is at +18 -9. I still can carve with -12 and even -15, and I can switch carve even if that equates to a -18, but the effect is noticeable anyway.


"even with full pressure on the front foot only, I found I was _still_ overrotating."
I know someone told you that because that was not your problem. I will still say that based on the video you posted, it was definitely part of your problem. Just not the whole of it. I would say lack of edge angle was (and maybe still is) the main problem. That being said being backfooted doesn't help controlling the rotation during initiation, and even during the drive phase of the turn.

OK so now let's address one more thing. I said both the problems I see in your video should improve if you gain more confidence. I was thinking more about trying to find a better setting, easier slopes, etc... Sometimes a few tweaks of a binding angle are enough to gain the needed confidence (in addition to some biomechanical aspects). I'm happy for you it worked and you made progresses. Keep up the good work and don't hesitate to come back later and reread some of the things that have been said. Several posts look really valid to me, but by experience I know it is almost impossible to really grasp each concept all at once.


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## masotime (Jan 28, 2019)

Looks like there was some follow up here:

__
https://www.reddit.com/r/snowboardingnoobs/comments/10047vr


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## TrimbleFunky (4 mo ago)

bazman said:


> Malcolm Moore just posted a vid about it


I disagree with this video.

And it's because Malcolm Moore isn't a true advanced rider. That's all. That's most instructors, so it's fine.

Judder is caused by a lack of strong body position. You can rail it up high on edge to almost rubbing your butt on firm snow or actually rubbing it. If you judder, it's your fault. The hell out of here with "too much edge".

Most people you see carving the steeps on firmer snow are typically not in super strong body positions; they're in "good enough" body positions. They would absolutely fall apart at speed, like in a race course. So the bar for riding high edge angles without judder isn't even that high. I have no idea what he is smoking.


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## Board Doctor (Feb 1, 2018)

My thoughts on Chatter… It’s more of a problem on the heel edge because your ankles can’t absorb the bumps. You need to absorb with the knees. As you’re finishing the turn, you’re extending your legs and adding pressure to the edge. That pressure needs to be over the edge (which Malcom is sort of getting at). Big extended ‘euro‘ carves only really work when it’s smooth.


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## lbs123 (Jan 24, 2017)

TrimbleFunky said:


> Judder is caused by a lack of strong body position. You can rail it up high on edge to almost rubbing your butt on firm snow or actually rubbing it. If you judder, it's your fault. The hell out of here with "too much edge"


What do you mean by a strong body position in this context?


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## TrimbleFunky (4 mo ago)

lbs123 said:


> What do you mean by a strong body position in this context?


A body position where you can hold a lot of weight right on your heel. You create a very small ledge when carving, even with dull edges on firm snow. Absolutely do not pop out of that ledge that should be creating immense pressure on your feet. 

The likely problem is, the person Malcolm is trying to help simply isn’t getting enough edge angle earlier in the turn, then they try to get more edge as the turn enters the fall line, but they don’t know how to. Eventually the forces build up and the edge angle is just high enough, it judders instead of skidding out.


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## Donutz (May 12, 2010)

There are a lot of possible causes of heelside judder. Malcom's explanation is certainly plausible, although it is by no means the only possibility. You can get judder from too much edge, not enough edge, poor body positioning, or (as in my case) asymmetrical turns where the heelside turn is habitually much sharper than the toeside. It can even be a combination of problems. The OP is going to have to test for all the possibilities. The best first step is to get someone to video them up close when doing turns.


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## wrathfuldeity (Oct 5, 2007)

OP, just went back and watched your vid. There has been a lot of great info posted thus far. However, generally ignore most of it. Ignore it because you are not anywhere at the level of riding to use it. Most all of the information is for at least a solid to high intermediate to advancing level of riding.

The chatter/judder you speak of is just a perhaps a mild skidding out of the tail. You are not anywhere near a speed where your tail is skipping out of the edge of a carve. I would rate your level at a solid beginner. What I see is that you are timid and fearful, have no confidence to pursue speed... we have all been there.

My recs: Is to *ride more*, get a few lessons and more importantly *ride up*. That is *ride and mob* around the hill with folks who are better and just try to keep up. This will help you get comfortable with speed, will get you to trust both your body and the board, you need to get more dynamic (way too stiff).

In the vid, in the back along the trees, there are a couple of skiers and then a boarder in a tan/brown jacket. You need to get yourself to at least that level of riding/speed before any of the information in this thread becomes relevant.

After getting some of the riding basics down at each level or plateau, riding becomes a mental game of managing your anxiety, fear but focusing more or isolating on specific techniques and then there is the whole energy, mental attentional focusing and etc.

You are doing well, certainly at about the 15-day mark in that you are not falling all over the place and beginning to put things together. Don't take my comments as discouraging... just know that at each level of progression there are things to focus on to push through the wall. At your level, ride more, ride up and mob around... get very comfortable with this and then some of the above stuff will start to make more sense and be more applicable.


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## easyrider16 (Sep 28, 2020)

Lots of blah blah blah up there. Your issue is you are not riding your heel side edge because you are off balance. Look at your toe side turn - it slowly engages, holds on edge, and makes a gradual, round turn. Then when you go to your heel side, your back leg kicks in way too fast and you skid. You need to roll into that heel side more slowly. Instead of pushing that back foot quickly forward, just ride the edge of the snowboard. You do this by keeping pressure on your front foot. Its hard because you will feel out of control in the first part of the turn, but you have to get used to that feeling before you master the turn.

Part of your problem is you are off balance while on your heels, so you compensate by kicking that back leg forward. That's a practice thing. Try going to a green trail and traversing across it on your heel side over and over to get practice balancing. Focus on keeping your weight a little more biased toward your front foot.

All that other bullsh!t about knee position and ankle dosiflexion is not going to help you. You're not there yet. You are still at the stage where you're trying to learn how to balance. Your stance adjustment helped because it made it easier for you to balance, but that's not the heart of your issue. Balance is.


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## Board Doctor (Feb 1, 2018)

masotime said:


> Looks like there was some follow up here:
> 
> __
> https://www.reddit.com/r/snowboardingnoobs/comments/10047vr


For those that missed the recent video... He’s looking a lot better.


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## TrimbleFunky (4 mo ago)

Board Doctor said:


> For those that missed the recent video... He’s looking a lot better.


Lol. I was so focused on responding to the Malcolm post, I completely forgot this thread was about this rider.

Yeah looking a lot better.
I really have no idea how I transitioned from my first couple of turns to the rider I am now. I have over/or about 1000 days on snow and the only thing I can remember is.

You have to ride with people better than you and examine your own technique with a critical eye. Take video of your own riding; it will eventually look less offensive as you get better, but it could easily be 500+ days of riding before that happens.

Ride really shitty conditions. The real good riders can ride in terrible conditions and make it look good (they might not enjoy it themselves though).


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## easyrider16 (Sep 28, 2020)

Pretty obvious to me from the second video that you are still having trouble balancing on your heel side edge. Look at the way your upper body scrunges up when you get deep into the heel side, and your chest practically falls over the board. That is because you are losing your balance and compensating with your upper body. You need to practice balancing on your heel side edge.


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## MerroStep (2 mo ago)

Heh, glad someone saw the most recent video off of Reddit. That must've been taken Day 23 of riding (Day 13 of the season) and one of the biggest things pointed out to me most in the Reddit comments was my inability to get my center of mass directly over the heel edge.

I've tried so many different body positions, stance angles, stance widths to see what was most comfortable, and I reverted back to what was in that Reddit video as it gave me the most confidence with my riding.

I'm really struggling with getting my center of mass directly over my heel edge, as I find any sort of (sitting back) motion will automatically send my center of mass way far behind the heel edge. For context, I can't sit down in a chair without bending at the waist. Same thing applies to my heelside edge. I still think there's a major biomechanic piece I need to work on here.

I need to review my videos, but I was riding Park City today and found the first half of my heelside turns to be much closer to a carve. One thing I found help was rotating my hips to face down the mountain and bringing my back knee in. We also got better fitting boots! We're now at Day 16 of the season and Day 26 of riding overall and I'm pretty excited by my progression.

I had a lesson a few weeks ago too, although we were mostly focused on "rising & falling" with the slope, down unweighted turns, and buttering. Less so about cleaning up carving.

EDIT: Forgot to add, I switched from a beginner Rossi Gala to a Yes Greats and I felt like this switch unlocked a LOT of progression I was stringing with prior. Honestly felt like night and day, and this new board has given me a lot more confidence to push my progression.


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## Board Doctor (Feb 1, 2018)

How’s your dorsiflexion?






Ankle Dorsiflexion: Test & Treat | Active Health KC


Ankle Dorsiflexion is extremely important for a variety of movements. Learn how to test your dorsiflexion and treat it in this article.




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I never considered mine until my pedorthist pointed it out. Did some exercises and got one of these:








ProStretch® The Original Calf Stretcher


Get the adjustable ProStretch Original Calf Stretcher and Foot Rocker from Medi-Dyne. Our stretcher helps relieve and stretch the plantar fascia, calf, foot, and hamstring muscles far more effectively. Order your ProStretch calf stretcher online today.




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I’m up to 16cm after stretching, which is about 55 degrees.


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## masotime (Jan 28, 2019)

There’s a follow up post here:


__
https://www.reddit.com/r/snowboardingnoobs/comments/106dnkc


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## wrathfuldeity (Oct 5, 2007)

You're not engaging your edge, the radius. Slow down, traverse (carve) back and forth across the fall line. Let the board run on the edge, you need to get more dynamic and get the board angled up on its edge. Use that real-estate... you just have a narrow path. Widen the path back and forth.


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