# Binding Opinions



## lisevolution (Sep 20, 2007)

Ok, so the time in the season has come for me to pick up some new bindings. I currently have SPi's on my Rome Flag and I love them, but I'm just looking for a change.

I've narrowed my choices down to three but am open to other educated suggestions. Here are the 3 I'm considering:

1. Rome Targa
2. Union Force DLX
3. Burton P1

I am predominantly a free rider at this point and love the responsiveness of my SPi's but am looking for something a bit more flexible for comfort factor. I've played with both the Targa's and the P1's and found them both to be outstanding, and I really never like Burton hard goods but the straps are super cushy and the base is flexible but not soft... The Targa is very similar to my SPi's but lighter, a bit more flexible and has a million adjustments.

I have not had had a chance to ride the Union's but have played with them in the store and every person I speak to about them freaking loves them so I'm definitely willing to check them out. Another outside option are the Flow NX-AT's but I'm pretty sure I want a true strap binding. 

What are everyone's thoughts on this?


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## lisevolution (Sep 20, 2007)

anyone? I know some of you ride these so feedback would be appreciated!!!


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## Guest (Jan 4, 2008)

*Real Burton P1 Reviews*

People who have bought and used these bindings gave these an average of 5/5 stars: Real Burton Mens P1 Bindings reviews in Snowboard Bindings - Buzzillions.com

One guy said "Great overall binding with plenty of features. The footstrap is padded well and come with easy on/off ratcheting binding. The highback is adjustable for forward lean as well as rotation so that it is parallel with the heel edge. It also has an adjustable toe plate fit your size boot. It also comes standard with a toe cap strap to securely hold in the boot. Great performance binding without crushing your foot."


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## boarderaholic (Aug 13, 2007)

Emma, is this your own opinion, or are you giving advice based on what other people are saying?


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## Guest (Jan 4, 2008)

both my own and what people are saying who have bought and used these bindings


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## KIRKWOOD-$LUT (Dec 16, 2006)

want to sell the SPi's


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## Mysticfalcon (Nov 27, 2007)

Ive got some Burton Triads and I think they are the best money Ive spent on anything snowboarding in a very long time. Super responsive but super comfy.


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## lisevolution (Sep 20, 2007)

Yeah I demo'd all 3 this weekend and I actually ruled out the Union's. Though they were comfortable and the leather straps are super fresh and comfy the convertible toe cap slipped up way too often and they just didn't feel as nice as the P1's and Targa's. Now the problem I'm having with the decision is the targa's were nice but the Burton's were actually a bunch more comfortable. At the places suggestion I tried a set of Flow NXT-AT's and a also a pair of I believe Triad's it was either those or the C60's and now I'm not sure what to do again. The flows were super comfy and ultra easy to get in and out of though a bit heavier. The burton's were very responsive and the straps were the most comfortable strap I've ever used on any set of strap bindings. So now it's do I go flow or do I just suck it up and go with the Burton bindings and give them a shot again


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## Guest (Jan 7, 2008)

i heard so many good things about the union bindings so i order a pair of Cadet DLX along with my 2007 Burton P1s. I was not impressed with the build quality of the Unions. The straps just don't compare to the straps on the Burton. I have yet to test on the mountain. The Unions are DEFINITEly lighter, but just don't feel as solid. I can take photos and post if you want, but the Unions are probably going back.


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## Guest (Jan 7, 2008)

Union vs Burton - a photoset on Flickr

photos


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## lisevolution (Sep 20, 2007)

Don't get me wrong, the Union's were super fresh, ultra light and very very comfortable, but that said both the Rome and Burton's were better. The P1's were a bit too flexy in the highback for my taste which is why the shop let me demo a set of C02's... i figured out it was them by looking at the pictures. I am super torn now though. I have basically narrowed down my selection to two pairs I really wasn't even considering until riding them. I have moral issues with both brands having had bad experiences with Burton in my past and with Flow as nice as they were I don't know if I'm ready to go that route. I will say I am super impressed with their build quality and I also bought my gf a Flow Infinia board for x-mas and it is absolutely sick...I like it better than my Rome! I don't know... The price of the Burton's has me leaning more towards the Flows and they were really super comfortable and responsive...


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## landonk5 (Aug 19, 2007)

i have burton P1s and they are super sick.
very responsive but the highbacks are flexible
as you mentioned. i personally love my P1s, and 
i like the flex cause its super forgiving
but still deals out tons of performance.


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## lisevolution (Sep 20, 2007)

That's why they suggested I try the CO2's...they have a stiffer highback than the P1's but have the same super cushy straps for the comfort factor. I really don't know what to do now though. I'm a little put off by the idea of riding flows eventhough they really were super comfy and uber responsive, that and The burton's are super adjustable, lighter and have the most comfortable straps I've ever used


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## Nito (Oct 16, 2007)

*Go Flow unless ...*



lisevolution said:


> That's why they suggested I try the CO2's...they have a stiffer highback than the P1's but have the same super cushy straps for the comfort factor. I really don't know what to do now though. I'm a little put off by the idea of riding flows eventhough they really were super comfy and uber responsive, that and The burton's are super adjustable, lighter and have the most comfortable straps I've ever used


you go back country, like to go freestyle on occasion, or only have the 1 binding for multiple boards. Personally, I ride Flows because of the responsiveness and no pressure points. However, I'm thinking about going strap because they are easier to set-up and reconfigure. BTW, I freeride and have only 1 binding but 3 boards.

Hope this helps - Nito


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## kri$han (Feb 24, 2007)

I can't really speak much on any other brands, but I gotta sya that after riding the burton cartel's, I don't think I'd ever pay full price for another binding that isnt just as light, and has a toe-strap cap.

That being said, when you demo'ed the burton's, did the forward lean adjustment screw keep backing off? not that it'd spin around completely, but even just 1/4 turn?... mine does for some odd reason, and its a bit of a pain, but other than that its no worries...

ps. I'll buy ur ride's off ya


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## lisevolution (Sep 20, 2007)

I didn't notice it on the P1's...I think they have a different set up though than the Cartels


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## Guest (Jan 18, 2008)

I ride Flows (not the NXTs, a couple of years old - pro 11 or something?) and tried the Targas a few weeks ago; definitely less comfortable than Flows (i.e. the pressure points of the straps, even after much adjustment, were definitely more noticable than the flows).

It'll be interesting to see what you go for though; I'm looking at getting some strapped bindings next week when I head up to Tahoe (I've just started riding off-piste powder properly, and from the one time I got stuck, I don't want to be using Flows in deep powder...), so let us know which way you go.


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## Mr. Right (Sep 27, 2007)

lisevolution said:


> Ok, so the time in the season has come for me to pick up some new bindings. I currently have SPi's on my Rome Flag and I love them, but I'm just looking for a change.
> 
> I've narrowed my choices down to three but am open to other educated suggestions. Here are the 3 I'm considering:
> 
> ...



Well if you like your Ride Bindings but want something more flexible check out something from the mobility collection, Ride Delta Movement, Ride Beta Movement etc. They are specifically designed to be more flexible for park riding and are just as durable as the SPI, RX, Cad etc. It would really be worth checking out. I myself am also looking for a change and my #1 choice is going to be The Rome Targa if I don't go Ride Alpha etc. I looked at them yesterday at a local shop and the construction reminds me a lot of Ride but I've heard the straps are a little more comfy. My second choice would be Union as well. Burton does make a good binding but I just don't trust their shit. They just don't seem to be built as solid as my Rides are (a lot more plastic etc, and as Ride says, plastic is for TOYS!)

Ride Snowboards 07/08




Oh and I want dibs on the SPIs lol


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## rgrwilco (Oct 15, 2007)

one word and 3 numbers

rome 390.

if you want to get into freestyle, you can adjust the binding to be softer by moving the straps around, and make them more responsive for freeride by doing the same. the customability of rome bindings are amazing, and i dont feel like im going to break the highback when i rotate it around a bit. other bindings highbacks, especially burton, feel cheap and flimsy so i dont even bother trying to rotate those.

plus you get a 2 year warranty on your rome bindings. the straps are so comfortable, and the rubber piece that goes between the base of the binding and the board pretty much eliminates any vibrations while riding, which is nice. i honestly cannot say enough good stuff about the bindings.

rome as a company is legit as hell too. i needed convertable disks so i could put my 390s on my burton, so i emailed rome, 2 days later they are at my house. same with some ladders for my older 390s last season.


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## lisevolution (Sep 20, 2007)

Mr. Right said:


> Well if you like your Ride Bindings but want something more flexible check out something from the mobility collection, Ride Delta Movement, Ride Beta Movement etc. They are specifically designed to be more flexible for park riding and are just as durable as the SPI, RX, Cad etc. It would really be worth checking out. I myself am also looking for a change and my #1 choice is going to be The Rome Targa if I don't go Ride Alpha etc. I looked at them yesterday at a local shop and the construction reminds me a lot of Ride but I've heard the straps are a little more comfy. My second choice would be Union as well. Burton does make a good binding but I just don't trust their shit. They just don't seem to be built as solid as my Rides are (a lot more plastic etc, and as Ride says, plastic is for TOYS!)
> 
> Ride Snowboards 07/08
> 
> ...


The Targa was my #1 choice also and then I tried them and they were essentially the same as my SPi's. I just feel like I might as well just buy another pair of them if I'm going go there. I think you'll like the Unions better than the Targa when you try them, I did...

I looked at the other Rides and I'm intrigued but I just need to try another brand out... I just haven't decided which way to go. I also was prett impressed with the Bent Metal Biscuits I saw this week also. I'm trying to work out a demo for them tomorrow but I don't think the guy will let me do that. 

In regards to the underpadding on the Rome Bindings, that's a Ride binding development, they've been doing that for like 5yrs + now and Burton does it also but on the Idiom which is the CO2 with the SZ top buckle.


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## Mr. Right (Sep 27, 2007)

I hear you. Another binding I've been eyeing lately is the Drake Mentor. Convertible strap, durable, and the price isn't all that bad on them either considering it's a high end binding.


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## Nivek (Jan 24, 2008)

flippin unions, i would say noone uses more quality, magnesium buckles, cnc machined heecups, zytel glass base with lifetime warrany, urethane bushings between base and board (to help with board feel and flex).


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## Guest (Jan 27, 2008)

Emma03 said:


> People who have bought and used these bindings gave these an average of 5/5 stars: Real Burton Mens P1 Bindings reviews in Snowboard Bindings - Buzzillions.com
> 
> One guy said "Great overall binding with plenty of features. The footstrap is padded well and come with easy on/off ratcheting binding. The highback is adjustable for forward lean as well as rotation so that it is parallel with the heel edge. It also has an adjustable toe plate fit your size boot. It also comes standard with a toe cap strap to securely hold in the boot. Great performance binding without crushing your foot."



wtf? are you a noob? theyre clunky heavy made in a sweatshop in portugeze and suck fat whale chode. no burton bindings i tell everyone NONE! they come in and i turn them right into the rides and the romes. def the romes buddy theyre the elite last year this year and for years to come. story behind rome. 2 burton techs quit and made rome because they didnt like how burton was running the business and now theyre owning the shit out of the snowboarding industry. rome everything rome rome rome, and i ride a forum and ride bindings but next year its def rome bindings and maybe a rome board in the mix MAYBE!


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## Guest (Jan 27, 2008)

kri$han said:


> I can't really speak much on any other brands, but I gotta sya that after riding the burton cartel's, I don't think I'd ever pay full price for another binding that isnt just as light, and has a toe-strap cap.
> 
> That being said, when you demo'ed the burton's, did the forward lean adjustment screw keep backing off? not that it'd spin around completely, but even just 1/4 turn?... mine does for some odd reason, and its a bit of a pain, but other than that its no worries...
> 
> ps. I'll buy ur ride's off ya


romes and rides are as light and have toestrap caps tard and theyre way better and way more comftorble and have a better warranty although you dont need it because in time your cartel highbacks and the custom highbacks crack. number 1 customer complaint!


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## Guest (Jan 27, 2008)

kri$han said:


> I can't really speak much on any other brands, but I gotta sya that after riding the burton cartel's, I don't think I'd ever pay full price for another binding that isnt just as light, and has a toe-strap cap.
> 
> That being said, when you demo'ed the burton's, did the forward lean adjustment screw keep backing off? not that it'd spin around completely, but even just 1/4 turn?... mine does for some odd reason, and its a bit of a pain, but other than that its no worries...
> 
> ps. I'll buy ur ride's off ya


wait i take that back theyre 2x LIGHTER! muahahhahahhahahhahahahahhaha. cartels are like 2 pounds idk what your talking about.


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## lisevolution (Sep 20, 2007)

I'm starting to think I'm gonna go with either the Flows or now I'm seriously looking at the Raiden Phantom or R8 as well as the Bent Metal Step-In bindings...I'm still thinking about the Union Force's again also... too many options for me...


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## Guest (Jan 30, 2008)

whats all this then about the cartels high-back cracking?
url?


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## lisevolution (Sep 20, 2007)

So I did it, made the decision and bought myself a set of the Raiden Phantom Eetala bindings. Got them super cheap $182 shipped to my door tomorrow!


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## rgrwilco (Oct 15, 2007)

Mendel said:


> whats all this then about the cartels high-back cracking?
> url?


dont need a link to find out. just go to any mountain on a weekend. or go to a snowboard shop and touch the burton highbacks. feels like fisher price shit.


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## Guest (Feb 1, 2008)

I own the cartels and theyre fine for me. theyre 08s so idk where ur coming from.
and the plastic or cf high back materials are basically universal on all bindings.
I was looking for where the "number one complaint" was about cartel/custom high backs cracking?
Also, is any of this truth or burton-hating?


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## Guest (Feb 1, 2008)

Mendel said:


> I own the cartels and theyre fine for me. theyre 08s so idk where ur coming from.
> and the plastic or cf high back materials are basically universal on all bindings.
> I was looking for where the "number one complaint" was about cartel/custom high backs cracking?
> Also, is any of this truth or burton-hating?


It is the usual Burton hating bull shit. Kids are jealous becuase they either cant afford Burton stuff, or they simply think bashing Burton makes them sound cool and experienced. If you search around on this forum, you will see that the zumiez guy bashes Burton bindings everytime he posts.

Burton makes some of the nicest bindings out there. They use extremely high quality plastics and when you consider how many or sold, they are very few problems with them. That being said, all bindings are subject to breaking in the right conditions. It just happens to be that everytime a Burton binding breaks, the hate bandwagoners jump on it and make a big deal out of it. I have used Bent Metal, Flow, K2, Burton and Rome and all companies make quality stuff.

Buy what you like, fuck the haters.


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## PaoloSmythe (Aug 19, 2007)

rgrwilco said:


> just go to any mountain on a weekend. or go to a snowboard shop and touch the burton highbacks. feels like fisher price shit.


Fisher Price bindings rock!

i thrash the sweet b'jesus out of mine..... no stress no wear no tear just carves

and the abuse continues!


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## PaoloSmythe (Aug 19, 2007)

PapaWood said:


> It is the usual Burton hating bull shit. Kids simply think bashing Burton makes them sound cool and experienced.


ha! bang on.


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## kri$han (Feb 24, 2007)

zumiezrep24 said:


> wait i take that back theyre 2x LIGHTER! muahahhahahhahahhahahahahhaha. cartels are like 2 pounds idk what your talking about.


haha, like i said ass-wipe, I can only compare them to the sims bindings I was riding for a year before the cartels (I've never ridden any other bindings, unless you count rentals, lol), and in comparison, they're lighter (probably because the sims have a metal heel-cup)

but j00 must be teh r0x0rz sn0oeboarder, who knows all!!! :laugh:

I've stomped the shiet outta my cartels so far, with no issues. if/when they do break, I'll let u know.


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## rgrwilco (Oct 15, 2007)

im not bashing burton for the sake of bashing burton. in another thread i even stated the dominant is one of the best park boards around. but comparing the burton bindings material to others is nonsense. ride usues aluminum. hold a rome and a burton binding in your hands and feel the difference. my missions on my dom last year were great, very comfortbable and responsive---until they broke a week after getting them. the warrantied pairs screws that held the hihgback in kept coming out. lame.


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## Guest (Feb 1, 2008)

lisevolution said:


> So I did it, made the decision and bought myself a set of the Raiden Phantom Eetala bindings. Got them super cheap $182 shipped to my door tomorrow!


step-in bindings never work how theyre supposed to. and flows are too much of a pain to get adjusted too and ive also seen them break and ive heard that when you turn on your toe edge it hurts like a biotch. ride and rome. look into them the ride beta mvmnts and above and the rome 390 and targas. the targas have soo much tecnonology but not overwhelming and still flexible comftorble and lightweight. ALOT LIGHETR THAN CLUNKY CLINGY BURTONS...


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## Guest (Feb 1, 2008)

kri$han said:


> haha, like i said ass-wipe, I can only compare them to the sims bindings I was riding for a year before the cartels (I've never ridden any other bindings, unless you count rentals, lol), and in comparison, they're lighter (probably because the sims have a metal heel-cup)
> 
> but j00 must be teh r0x0rz sn0oeboarder, who knows all!!! :laugh:
> 
> I've stomped the shiet outta my cartels so far, with no issues. if/when they do break, I'll let u know.


watch for that bridging plastic piece on the highbacks. thats where they mostly break. and your toestraps prolly piss you off alot too alwasy sliding up over your foot and all. ive riden them and in conclusion they only made my boots feel bigger and heavier. and its not just the metal heelcup considering everyones doing that now besides burton and flow (for obvious reasons that they dont have a heelcup) rides highbacks are made of rubber and plastic... like 80% plastic the rest rubber and romes are made of like 65-70% plastic and the rest rubber. burton straps just have foam in them when the ride delta and above and rome 390's have gel that molds to your boot for comftorble riding. next time you shop for a binding compare the ride betas and the rome 390's unless you wanna go all out with the rome targas. :cheeky4: and oh yeah... ill admit im an ass because i criticize people but thats the only way to get it through all these shaun white wannabee snowboarders these days that burton just isnt top dog. its their team and their advertisement that made them who they are today. and the dominate? is NOT the best park board. look into the lib-tech skate bananna. the dominate is tons heavier and has way less snap than the burton. my friend already popped out his edge just riding around and he already just went out and bought an o-matic.


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## T.J. (Aug 28, 2007)

zumiezrep24 said:


> step-in bindings never work how theyre supposed to.


yeah they do. you step in, they lock. sounds like they work how they are supposed to. and flows need some adjusting when you first get them but after that they are set it and forget it.


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## Guest (Feb 1, 2008)

zumiezrep24 said:


> watch for that bridging plastic piece on the highbacks. thats where they mostly break. and your toestraps prolly piss you off alot too alwasy sliding up over your foot and all. ive riden them and in conclusion they only made my boots feel bigger and heavier. and its not just the metal heelcup considering everyones doing that now besides burton and flow (for obvious reasons that they dont have a heelcup) rides highbacks are made of rubber and plastic... like 80% plastic the rest rubber and romes are made of like 65-70% plastic and the rest rubber. burton straps just have foam in them when the ride delta and above and rome 390's have gel that molds to your boot for comftorble riding. next time you shop for a binding compare the ride betas and the rome 390's unless you wanna go all out with the rome targas. :cheeky4: and oh yeah... ill admit im an ass because i criticize people but thats the only way to get it through all these shaun white wannabee snowboarders these days that burton just isnt top dog. its their team and their advertisement that made them who they are today. and the dominate? is NOT the best park board. look into the lib-tech skate bananna. the dominate is tons heavier and has way less snap than the burton. my friend already popped out his edge just riding around and he already just went out and bought an o-matic.


First of all, if Shawn White is getting kids into the sport, than that's awesome. I do not see how this can be a negative at all? Is it bad that kids imitated Wayne Gretzky in their backyard in hopes of one day becoming an NHL player?

Second, how many friends do you have that seemingly all have at one time broken different Burton hardgoods? And please, break up your writing into paragraphs!


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## Guest (Feb 1, 2008)

Snowolf said:


> Quoted For Truth....:thumbsup:


no im with you on that last sentence. but ride romes k2's all out performe burtons in everyway. i have tons of people that i know that withouth questioning them they say that they hate their burtons in every aspect. and the peoples riding styles vairy. and if i cant afford shitty ass cartels customs or p1's? then why the FUCK IS IT IM RIDING RIDE BETA MVMNTS AND ROME TARGAS ON MY OTHER BOARD?!?!?!?! tell me that and then get back to me. stfu. people will bash a company because of what they have experience first or second hand. not because they are jealous that everyone eles has them. its a fucking cliquche. everyone wants burton boards bindings and boots because of the name not because of the quality. and that high output plastic or whatever bullshit? psh bend a pair of targas or 390 highbacks, you can bend them to the board practically, now go bend a pair of p1's or cartel or customs half as far as romes, YOULL CRACK EM RIGHT IN HALF!


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## Guest (Feb 1, 2008)

rgrwilco said:


> dont need a link to find out. just go to any mountain on a weekend. or go to a snowboard shop and touch the burton highbacks. feels like fisher price shit.


thank you someone on this fucking forum finally sees past the good ol name BURTON!


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## Guest (Feb 1, 2008)

Mendel said:


> I own the cartels and theyre fine for me. theyre 08s so idk where ur coming from.
> and the plastic or cf high back materials are basically universal on all bindings.
> I was looking for where the "number one complaint" was about cartel/custom high backs cracking?
> Also, is any of this truth or burton-hating?


its truth. and theyre not gonna show you the customer complaint because without the burtons on the shelf selling them to all the noob jocks who dont know shit. no board shop would make half as much money. that goes for sports authority too.


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## romesaz (Nov 21, 2007)

Zumiesrep, are you an actual official rep of zumies?

As in, the manager/owner/head honcho at Zumies' has requested you to be a representative on (all) Snowboarding forums?


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## Guest (Feb 1, 2008)

this is interesting b/c im somewhat a noob and i went to get a board bindings and boots and bought all burton. burton custom bindings, burton king board and burton moto boots... granted i got everythign at price and only paid half price of msrp im not complaining. everything is ok so far and man ive taken some bad ass falls.


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## Guest (Feb 1, 2008)

zumiezrep24 said:


> its truth. and theyre not gonna show you the customer complaint because without the burtons on the shelf selling them to all the noob jocks who dont know shit. no board shop would make half as much money. that goes for sports authority too.


<--- noob jock who doesn't know shit. guilty as charged.

And again, in what capacity do you represent or speak on behalf of Zumiez?


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## Guest (Feb 1, 2008)

zumiezrep24 said:


> its truth. and theyre not gonna show you the customer complaint because without the burtons on the shelf selling them to all the noob jocks who dont know shit. no board shop would make half as much money. that goes for sports authority too.


Ok bud, here is something for your narrow minded ass to think about. Nearly all of the high end bindings on the market today are using some sort of variation of the same materials. Ballistic Polymer, Glass filled Nylon, Aluminum, Carbon Fiber, DuPont Zytel Nylon, DuPont Hytrel, Carbon Fiber and thermoplastic elastomer. All of these same components can handle heavy stress and many can be seen on modern aircraft, military assault rifles, automobiles, boats etc. Many of these components are design to flex well while still holding some form of rigidity.

Taking that into consideration, I want you to go and research the material used in a Burton Cartel highback and a Rome Targa high back. In fact, taking into consideration that you are probably too brain washed from your equally unedecuated, bandwagon burton bashing friends to even do research before purchasing a product, I will answer for you. Both the Targa and Cartel use glass fiber filled nylon on the high back portion of the binding. I would go even further to speculate that both companies receive their materials from the same place (generally DuPont). Taking that into consideration, I want you to re-think your statement about all of the high backs breaking on Burton bindings and your life in general.

An experience snowboarder knows that when it comes to high end bindings, the majority of the difference comes down to preference, adjustability, and extra luxury features. Almost all the companies out there now are using the same high quality materials and trying to offer the customer a great lightweight, strong and high performance binding.


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## Guest (Feb 1, 2008)

PapaWood said:


> Ok bud, here is something for your narrow minded ass to think about. Nearly all of the high end bindings on the market today are using some sort of variation of the same materials. Ballistic Polymer, Glass filled Nylon, Aluminum, Carbon Fiber, DuPont Zytel Nylon, DuPont Hytrel, Carbon Fiber and thermoplastic elastomer. All of these same components can handle heavy stress and many can be seen on modern aircraft, military assault rifles, automobiles, boats etc. Many of these components are design to flex well while still holding some form of rigidity.
> 
> Taking that into consideration, I want you to go and research the material used in a Burton Cartel highback and a Rome Targa high back. In fact, given that fact that you are for the most part poorly educated I will answer it for you. Both the Targa and Cartel use glass fiber filled nylon on the high back portion of the binding. I would go even further to speculate that both companies receive their materials from the same place (generally DuPont). Taking that into consideration, I want you to re-think your statement about all of the high backs breaking on Burton bindings and your life in general.
> 
> An experience snowboarder knows that when it comes to high end bindings, the majority of the difference comes down to preference, adjustability, and extra luxury features. Almost all the companies out there now are using the same high quality materials and trying to offer the customer a great lightweight, strong and high performance binding.


spoken like a true senior member. word to your moms! AND you used paragraphs!!!


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## Guest (Feb 1, 2008)

gearmeout said:


> spoken like a true senior member. word to your moms! AND you used paragraphs!!!


haha. I am by no means even close to being a senior member nor do I brag to have impecable grammer, but thanks . I am just tired of this guy steering people senselessly away from what I feel to be a quality product. It is one thing to not care for something. It is another to create absolutely rediculous stories and negative propaganda about a product.


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## romesaz (Nov 21, 2007)

PapaWood said:


> haha. I am by no means even close to being a senior member nor do I brag to have impecable grammer, but thanks . I am just tired of this guy steering people senselessly away from what I feel to be a quality product. It is one thing to not care for something. It is another to create absolutely rediculous stories and negative propaganda about a product.




Very well said PapaWood. I can't keep composure to speak so coherently anymore when I read his posts.
I whole heartedly agree with everything you said.


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## Guest (Feb 1, 2008)

romesaz said:


> Very well said PapaWood. I can't keep composure to speak so coherently anymore when I read his posts.
> I whole heartedly agree with everything you said.


Ya I just feel that this whole Burton, Flow, (insert company here) hate crap has gone on long enough. It hasn't been conducive to anything good on the forum. This forum section is intended for the purpose of exchanging experiences with products and other information regarding questions to help people make an educated decision. When someone posts in continuously in numerous threads, absolutely rediculous accounts of an insane number of supposed Flow, Burton, etc. catastrophes I think at some point you have to credit that persons credibility. That kind of person isn't trying to help, but is instead trying to fuel their ego or justify their own purchase decisions by belittling another product.


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## Guest (Feb 1, 2008)

PapaWood said:


> Ya I just feel that this whole Burton, Flow, (insert company here) hate crap has gone on long enough. It hasn't been conducive to anything good on the forum. This forum section is intended for the purpose of exchanging experiences with products and other information regarding questions to help people make an educated decision. When someone posts in continuously in numerous threads, absolutely rediculous accounts of an insane number of supposed Flow, Burton, etc. catastrophes I think at some point you have to credit that persons credibility. That kind of person isn't trying to help, but is instead trying to fuel their ego or justify their own purchase decisions by belittling another product.


Exactly. It seems he has a friend for every burton board/boot/binding and everyone has broken their product in some way.


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## Guest (Feb 3, 2008)

romesaz said:


> Zumiesrep, are you an actual official rep of zumies?
> 
> As in, the manager/owner/head honcho at Zumies' has requested you to be a representative on (all) Snowboarding forums?


yes i am an actual manager of a zumie"z" store. i just put rep in there becaues there was a less of a chance for someone to have that name. i am not on every snowboarding, skateboarding, surf, longboard, clothing forum out there. i am only on this one. i am just about the only sales person that gives a shit about the customer rather than making money. if i really wanted to make money i would say go for these piece of shit burton cartels, and come back and buy more when they break. i was actually just at a snowboarding trip friday and i saw a pair break, then i went snowboarding at my local place and i was in the front of a guy who had 08 forum bindings the green ones cant remember the model name i asked him what made him buy those he said the heelcups on his BURTON CARTEL'S BROKE! QUOTE UNQUOTE! he also stated that they had almost no feel. and were way too stiff for his riding style in the park. he said he loves the forums and loves the fact that the heelcups are made of aluminum. so put that in your pipe and smoke it burton lovers. and some are friends that this shit happenst o and others are random people i talk to considering im bold and talk to everyone on the mountain. and thats why i post alotta stuff late at night. im bold and want to help people by making an educated decision/guess on what product to buy. i am telling you my first hand/second hand experiences with products. giving real true advice that some cliquy burton riders do not have because if you have a burton you either love it or hate it and if you love it you obviously just got into the industry and cant tell the difference from directional and twin from just taking a glance at the board. i ask some why they went with burton or a customer why the want a burton, they say that it is what most people have, or shaun white uses it so it must be good. very stereotypical but true. i hear good and horrible reasons to get a burton. i heard a kid say i want a burton because it is the only board name i know of besides forum and he wanted to get a burton because we had them there right now. i said ok well lets go look in the catalog and see what we can find thats in YOUR weight and shoe range boardwise. if you simply get a board because it looks sick as fuck, then you obviously need a reality check because that doesnt matter. you can be on a plain white board and it could be the best board out there (for you). but ive said it a couple of times and ill say it again its all about opinions and comfort and what your more confident with. but if i see a new rider im going to steer them away from burton so they are more confident with a more reliable product other than burton. if anyone wants a list of defects of burtons just message me and ill tell u them. hokay?


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## Guest (Feb 3, 2008)

PapaWood said:


> Ya I just feel that this whole Burton, Flow, (insert company here) hate crap has gone on long enough. It hasn't been conducive to anything good on the forum. This forum section is intended for the purpose of exchanging experiences with products and other information regarding questions to help people make an educated decision. When someone posts in continuously in numerous threads, absolutely rediculous accounts of an insane number of supposed Flow, Burton, etc. catastrophes I think at some point you have to credit that persons credibility. That kind of person isn't trying to help, but is instead trying to fuel their ego or justify their own purchase decisions by belittling another product.


its nfot hate i just dont like it how everyone who comes in simply thinks burton is the god almighty best in the snowboarding world. thats what i hate. they have very limited good products. i mean the burton boa breaks more often than the 32 boa... why? because the burton boa strings are THINNER THAN THE 32 BOA STRINGS!!!! now... common sense?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?! go look that up too d-bags.


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## Guest (Feb 3, 2008)

PapaWood said:


> Ok bud, here is something for your narrow minded ass to think about. Nearly all of the high end bindings on the market today are using some sort of variation of the same materials. Ballistic Polymer, Glass filled Nylon, Aluminum, Carbon Fiber, DuPont Zytel Nylon, DuPont Hytrel, Carbon Fiber and thermoplastic elastomer. All of these same components can handle heavy stress and many can be seen on modern aircraft, military assault rifles, automobiles, boats etc. Many of these components are design to flex well while still holding some form of rigidity.
> 
> Taking that into consideration, I want you to go and research the material used in a Burton Cartel highback and a Rome Targa high back. In fact, taking into consideration that you are probably too brain washed from your equally unedecuated, bandwagon burton bashing friends to even do research before purchasing a product, I will answer for you. Both the Targa and Cartel use glass fiber filled nylon on the high back portion of the binding. I would go even further to speculate that both companies receive their materials from the same place (generally DuPont). Taking that into consideration, I want you to re-think your statement about all of the high backs breaking on Burton bindings and your life in general.
> 
> An experience snowboarder knows that when it comes to high end bindings, the majority of the difference comes down to preference, adjustability, and extra luxury features. Almost all the companies out there now are using the same high quality materials and trying to offer the customer a great lightweight, strong and high performance binding.


bravo bravo you did your homework. now, how come it is that i am the one who got my friends to see past burtons name? oh yeah by my research and job. and im sorry that brainwash bandwaggon statement was completely the opposite. it is those who ride all burton shit that are hopping on the bandwaggon and are brainwashed. wow dumbass. look at it there are fewer people that hate burton than like em. and about 99% of those are the best riders on the mountain hill ect ect. its true who have u seen better a guy on a burton dominate or a guy on a rome artifact? someone on a burton blunt or a forum youngblood? burton bullet or nitro? burton blunt dominate or bullet OR a k2 www? answer that one for me. wow i think all of you just got owned. now for the bindings. burton cartels or rome 390's? burton customs or ride beta mvmnts? burton cartels or technine mfm pros? wow yeah just got owned again. boots? i can level with that accept for the burton boa. they just need thicker wiring and theyll be better. the bandwaggon and brainwashed ones are the burton riders. NARROW MINDED?!?!?! if we were face to face i would impale you with a fucking pole dumbass. HOW CAN YOU SAY IM NARROW MINDED WHEN ONE OF MY SETUPS IS A FORUM YOUNGBLOOD TEAM, RIDE DELTA MVMNT BINDINGS AND DC BOOTS?!?!?! the ones that ride BURTON DOMINATE. BURTON CARTELS AND BURTON BOOTS ARE THE NARROW MINDED ONES! what are you fucking dense? ive gotta variety setup theyve got 1 fucking THING! wow eat shit and die dumbass your fucking retarded i cant believe you made such stupid comments you are obviously one hell of a dumb motherfucker who doesnt know shit. 

now, whose next in line with the insults. this is hysterical i just got called narrowminded when my setup even with clothing varies with 10 different brands. wow your dumb. so i ask. whose next to insult the oh so narrow minded one who tells people to get their moneys worth with the longer lasting equipment. oh yeah 1 more thing? how come the targas are more flexible highbacks since they do come from the same factory. please enlighten me? they may be the same material but more and less % of each material that goes into the binding dumabss. theyre completely different. design is one HUGE flaw for the burton customs and cartels. THATS why they crack and the fact that they feel like a babies plastic leggo set.


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## laz167 (Nov 27, 2007)

I just bought a pair of 08 cartels from Zumies,go figure.And the manager actualy steered me away from the rides which I wanted to purchase cause they have a metal heelcup.She actualy told me that aluminum does bent in very cold temps.I actualy ride on 07 blunt 155,and im 195lbs,so far havent had any problems with the board.


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## rgrwilco (Oct 15, 2007)

i had rides, and i never noticed less flex when it was cold.

keep in mind plastic is more brittle in cold temps. id rather my binding fless lex than crack


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## Guest (Feb 3, 2008)

zumiezrep24 said:


> how come the targas are more flexible highbacks since they do come from the same factory. please enlighten me? they may be the same material but more and less % of each material that goes into the binding dumabss. theyre completely different. design is one HUGE flaw for the burton customs and cartels. THATS why they crack and the fact that they feel like a babies plastic leggo set.


What does a highback being more flexible have anything to do with quality. Cartel's are stiff and thus are better for freeriding versus maybe the 390's which are more flexible and a better park choice. If someone buys Cartels and uses them for park, is that Burton's fault?


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## rgrwilco (Oct 15, 2007)

first of all, sying the material is similar becasue they are both from dupont is rediculous. half the shit made in america comes from materials developed and made at dupont. their are different grades of plastics and molecular builds.

so saying cartels and romes similar because their material is from dupont is rediculous. romes would then have to be similar to a chevy and the cartels would be related to a damn bed pan.


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## Guest (Feb 3, 2008)

zumiezrep24 said:


> bravo bravo you did your homework. now, how come it is that i am the one who got my friends to see past burtons name? oh yeah by my research and job. and im sorry that brainwash bandwaggon statement was completely the opposite. it is those who ride all burton shit that are hopping on the bandwaggon and are brainwashed. wow dumbass. look at it there are fewer people that hate burton than like em. and about 99% of those are the best riders on the mountain hill ect ect. its true who have u seen better a guy on a burton dominate or a guy on a rome artifact? someone on a burton blunt or a forum youngblood? burton bullet or nitro? burton blunt dominate or bullet OR a k2 www? answer that one for me. wow i think all of you just got owned. now for the bindings. burton cartels or rome 390's? burton customs or ride beta mvmnts? burton cartels or technine mfm pros? wow yeah just got owned again. boots? i can level with that accept for the burton boa. they just need thicker wiring and theyll be better. the bandwaggon and brainwashed ones are the burton riders. NARROW MINDED?!?!?! if we were face to face i would impale you with a fucking pole dumbass. HOW CAN YOU SAY IM NARROW MINDED WHEN ONE OF MY SETUPS IS A FORUM YOUNGBLOOD TEAM, RIDE DELTA MVMNT BINDINGS AND DC BOOTS?!?!?! the ones that ride BURTON DOMINATE. BURTON CARTELS AND BURTON BOOTS ARE THE NARROW MINDED ONES! what are you fucking dense? ive gotta variety setup theyve got 1 fucking THING! wow eat shit and die dumbass your fucking retarded i cant believe you made such stupid comments you are obviously one hell of a dumb motherfucker who doesnt know shit.
> 
> now, whose next in line with the insults. this is hysterical i just got called narrowminded when my setup even with clothing varies with 10 different brands. wow your dumb. so i ask. whose next to insult the oh so narrow minded one who tells people to get their moneys worth with the longer lasting equipment. oh yeah 1 more thing? how come the targas are more flexible highbacks since they do come from the same factory. please enlighten me? they may be the same material but more and less % of each material that goes into the binding dumabss. theyre completely different. design is one HUGE flaw for the burton customs and cartels. THATS why they crack and the fact that they feel like a babies plastic leggo set.


First off I would like to say that I am very proud of you for responding in such a mature fashion. It makes my argument more credible when you act like a 13 year old and use profanity every three words. I would also like to thank you for further demonstrating your stupidity by threatening me over the internet by saying you would stab me with a pole....

Next, please explain to me how you can admit that the 390 and Cartel are made of the same material, then try to say that the Cartels have a thinner highback (which they do not) and then say that they feel like a babies plastic leggo set. Should they not feel the same as the 390s or Targa as they both use glass filled nylon highbacks? 

Next I would like to remind you that I said that the companies probably received materials from the same company, not that the bindings were made at the same place. 

Next I would like to further emphasize my reasoning in calling you narrow minded and questioning your credibility by shootind down your statement about the "Burton Boa System" which doesn't exist. Burton does not even use the Boa system, they use there own "Speed Zone" lacing system. The Boa system is actually produced by the company Boa who sells there technology to a wide variety of sports companies. You can find the Boa system on everything from running shoes, hiking boots, mountain climbing boots, ice skates, to snowboard boots. This system uses small steel cables instead of the ballistic nylon laces used on the Speed Zone system. I would assume if you were truly a professional in your field, that a simple college student from Montana would not know more than you in regards to almost every aspect of snowboarding that you have talked about. I am clearly a dumbass who knows nothing about snowboarding and am "obviously one hell of a dumb motherfucker who doesn't know shit."

Please do us all a favor by honorably leaving this forum for good. This forum is intended for mature individuals who can logically exchange information in an appropriate fashion. Your narrow minded attitude, profanity, and substantially illogical arguments have demonstrated to us all that you are clearly not ready to have a mature conversation with the big boys. Thanks and have a nice day.


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## Guest (Feb 3, 2008)

rgrwilco said:


> first of all, sying the material is similar becasue they are both from dupont is rediculous. half the shit made in america comes from materials developed and made at dupont. their are different grades of plastics and molecular builds.
> 
> so saying cartels and romes similar because their material is from dupont is rediculous. romes would then have to be similar to a chevy and the cartels would be related to a damn bed pan.


I only speculated that the materials were produced by DuPont and also only speculated that they were even made at the same place. If the materials are both made of glass filled nylon, they will be reasonably equal in strength, weight and flex. If they were both produced by DuPont for snowboarding companies, it is more than reasonable to assume they will be of a similar (most likely identical) composition. In addition, I never stated that they would be the same binding so your chevy argument is invalid. I was aiming to shoot down zumiezreps statement that the Cartel used cheap and low quality plastic which it does not.


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## redlude97 (Jan 9, 2008)

laz167 said:


> I just bought a pair of 08 cartels from Zumies,go figure.And the manager actualy steered me away from the rides which I wanted to purchase cause they have a metal heelcup.She actualy told me that aluminum does bent in very cold temps.I actualy ride on 07 blunt 155,and im 195lbs,so far havent had any problems with the board.


That manager is retarded, the argument against aluminum is that its stiffer than plastic in all conditions, it does not bend at colder temperatures. They are pros and cons to both plastic and metal, but aluminum bending certainly isn't one of them :laugh:


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## romesaz (Nov 21, 2007)

zumiezrep24 said:


> ....look at it there are fewer people that hate burton than like em. and about 99% of those are the best riders on the mountain hill ect ect. its true who have u seen better a guy on a burton dominate or a guy on a rome artifact? someone on a burton blunt or a forum youngblood? burton bullet or nitro? burton blunt dominate or bullet OR a k2 www? answer that one for me. wow i think all of you just got owned. now for the bindings. burton cartels or rome 390's? burton customs or ride beta mvmnts? burton cartels or technine mfm pros? wow yeah just got owned again.


You're contradicting yourself here.
In numerous posts have you said that for a lot of sponsored riders, whether it be Jeremy Jones, Terje, Muller, Antti Autti, Risto Matilla, etc , it doesn't matter what equipment they ride, since they would excel on ANY piece of equipment. 
This would imply that when these riders, who are the top 1% of the world's riders, ride Burton, Flow, etc, do not, according to your statement above, constitute the TOP riders of any one hill, mountain, park, etc?
I've seen plenty of riders that ride a rental burton, who outperform 99% of the rome park riders, but that's just my first hand/ second hand experience.
Also, would you not be out of your mind comparing the Cartels to the 390s? a freeride binding versus a park binding?
Also, would it not be the park riders fault, who took his cartel's to the park, that he did not 'feel' anything?

Please understand, that neither myself nor PapaWood are burton fanboys, but are simply trying to defend the snowboarding forum from your narrow mindedness.
The narrow mindedness that PapaWood was referring to, by the way (read this as a cliff's notes for the illiterate), is your, call it 'dislike' for burton, without giving them any credit, where in fact, it IS due.

You're in your right to dislike the company, for whatever your own personal or financial gain may be, however, you cannot blatantly call it garbage, when in fact, it isn't.

You want second hand experience? A friend of mine has been riding for 7 years, through rockies, to ice on the east coast, trying to stay as far away from groomers as he can, by riding as much backcountry, glades, 'out of bounds' areas that he can. 
He got the 08 cartels, and absolutely loves them. 
I've held and compared the binding to others in the same price range, and truth be told, compared to romes, or rides, they did not feel/look cheap, or seem out of place.

wow, yea, you just got owned.


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## redlude97 (Jan 9, 2008)

PapaWood said:


> I only speculated that the materials were produced by DuPont and also only speculated that they were even made at the same place. If the materials are both made of glass filled nylon, they will be reasonably equal in strength, weight and flex. If they were both produced by DuPont for snowboarding companies, it is more than reasonable to assume they will be of a similar (most likely identical) composition.


While this is true to some extent, the stiffness can easily be varied in any plastic that is impregnated with [fiber]glass by varying the ratio of fiberglass to plastic resin used. This isn't necessarily the case here, but the flexibility/strength of the product can vary greatly between different compositions. I don't agree with alot of what zumieprep says about burton, but I just wanted to make this clarification


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## landonk5 (Aug 19, 2007)

PapaWood said:


> Ya I just feel that this whole Burton, Flow, (insert company here) hate crap has gone on long enough. It hasn't been conducive to anything good on the forum. This forum section is intended for the purpose of exchanging experiences with products and other information regarding questions to help people make an educated decision. When someone posts in continuously in numerous threads, absolutely rediculous accounts of an insane number of supposed Flow, Burton, etc. catastrophes I think at some point you have to credit that persons credibility. That kind of person isn't trying to help, but is instead trying to fuel their ego or justify their own purchase decisions by belittling another product.


i would like to be your understudy! you seem to know your stuff,
and i totally agree on the burton bashing trend. noobies love 
burton. a little more experienced noobies hate burton, because
the newer noobies love them. burton products arnt even half bad.
im not a burton basher or burton lover, i ride a lib tech TRS 
w/ burton P1s. and i got an uninc with targas coming my way. i
have DC boots. yeah i realize now, that burton products are more
costly cause they're the biggest name in snowboarding, but they
didnt get to be the biggest name by making crappy products.


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## Guest (Feb 4, 2008)

redlude97 said:


> While this is true to some extent, the stiffness can easily be varied in any plastic that is impregnated with [fiber]glass by varying the ratio of fiberglass to plastic resin used. This isn't necessarily the case here, but the flexibility/strength of the product can vary greatly between different compositions. I don't agree with alot of what zumieprep says about burton, but I just wanted to make this clarification


I won't disagree with you hear. My original post about the materials used was more aimed at adressing the criticism that Burton cartels (and other burton products) were made of cheap plastic that breaks easily. Glass filled nylon is tough and will sure as hell not break easily.


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## redlude97 (Jan 9, 2008)

PapaWood said:


> I won't disagree with you hear. My original post about the materials used was more aimed at adressing the criticism that Burton cartels (and other burton products) were made of cheap plastic that breaks easily. Glass filled nylon is tough and will sure as hell not break easily.


Agreed :thumbsup:


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## laz167 (Nov 27, 2007)

redlude97 said:


> That manager is retarded, the argument against aluminum is that its stiffer than plastic in all conditions, it does not bend at colder temperatures. They are pros and cons to both plastic and metal, but aluminum bending certainly isn't one of them :laugh:


 Yeah I kinda figured that metal could be better than plastic,plus she's Hotas far as my riding style Im not hitting 80 foot kickers so I dont really feel I'll be bending or cracking anything.


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## alaric (Aug 28, 2007)

So, I'll admit, I've only read a few posts, but I think I get the general drift of things, so I'm just going to throw ideas out. They're just ideas, but feel free to prove me wrong, but please don't rant on me, just say "hey, this is wrong, this is why its wrong, peace love and brownies."

So, I've had shit luck with Burton bindings. I had customs, I know, not top of the line but still. The straps were shit, I had to call Burton and have them send me new ones a couple of times. Highback wise wasn't too much better. I cracked my highback after about 50 days riding (hey, maybe that's a lot for burton, but I've got thru 100+ days with my 390's no problem). One of my friend's that had cartels snapped his highback off. At the time we didn't really ride the stuff hard.

Now, I know that the plastic parts of company to company are practically the same material, but, in my opinion, there's got to be something in the different manufacturing processes or designs that weakens Burton plastics. I'm wondering if their temperature for the molding process is too high, breaking down key componients of the plastic. I've just seen so many bad things happen with Burton plastics. It makes me wonder. Things just shouldn't be that easy to break.


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## Guest (Feb 4, 2008)

alaric said:


> So, I'll admit, I've only read a few posts, but I think I get the general drift of things, so I'm just going to throw ideas out. They're just ideas, but feel free to prove me wrong, but please don't rant on me, just say "hey, this is wrong, this is why its wrong, peace love and brownies."
> 
> So, I've had shit luck with Burton bindings. I had customs, I know, not top of the line but still. The straps were shit, I had to call Burton and have them send me new ones a couple of times. Highback wise wasn't too much better. I cracked my highback after about 50 days riding (hey, maybe that's a lot for burton, but I've got thru 100+ days with my 390's no problem). One of my friend's that had cartels snapped his highback off. At the time we didn't really ride the stuff hard.
> 
> Now, I know that the plastic parts of company to company are practically the same material, but, in my opinion, there's got to be something in the different manufacturing processes or designs that weakens Burton plastics. I'm wondering if their temperature for the molding process is too high, breaking down key componients of the plastic. I've just seen so many bad things happen with Burton plastics. It makes me wonder. Things just shouldn't be that easy to break.


That is a valid opinion from your experience with Burton and I wouldn't condemn anyones decision to personally not purchase a product, but consider this.

All bindings are subject to breaking. I have known of/ and seen Rome bindings, flow bindings, ride, forum, burton and even Bent Metals (my personal favorite). There are a wide variety of factors that can contribute to a binding breaking including riding style, weight, temperature, binding set up, fit, etc. In addition, bindings are designed as a safety device to break at a certain tension point to prevent injury. I think people fail to understand that a binding is a wear and tear item that is subject to many factors which can cause it to break.

I know that I have personally put 3 seasons on my old Cartels with no problems at all. When you also take into consideration that more Burton bindings are sold than any other binder, the number of problems that have sprung up with them have been prety isolated. I don't think it would be too accurate to generalize an entire company because of a few mishaps. That being said, If I was having continuous problems with a binding I would probably discontinue use as well.


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## Guest (Feb 4, 2008)

ndiggity said:


> What does a highback being more flexible have anything to do with quality. Cartel's are stiff and thus are better for freeriding versus maybe the 390's which are more flexible and a better park choice. If someone buys Cartels and uses them for park, is that Burton's fault?


actually that can go both ways thats debatable but burton does consider that one of their primary park bindings. and you know you dont want a stiff binding in the park because stiff highbacks or plastic heelcups + hxc riding = CRACK.


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## Guest (Feb 4, 2008)

romesaz said:


> You're contradicting yourself here.
> In numerous posts have you said that for a lot of sponsored riders, whether it be Jeremy Jones, Terje, Muller, Antti Autti, Risto Matilla, etc , it doesn't matter what equipment they ride, since they would excel on ANY piece of equipment.
> This would imply that when these riders, who are the top 1% of the world's riders, ride Burton, Flow, etc, do not, according to your statement above, constitute the TOP riders of any one hill, mountain, park, etc?
> I've seen plenty of riders that ride a rental burton, who outperform 99% of the rome park riders, but that's just my first hand/ second hand experience.
> ...


still doesnt help that they feel/look like a fisherprice kmart brand binding. also then why is it that most people have the burton cartels in the park? oh yeah because its the name BURTON that drags them into snowboarding. i give burton credit tons of it for what it is today but sometimes i wonder if it would be better without them. no lines in the terrain park, nothing getting messed up by people who think that theyre shaun white ect ect. i have actually said this once in this forum cant remember where but i remember saying "with burton products it is a hit or miss, a love or hate..." and that we should all know is true with anything. more people love burton because of the name. what i am saying is that there is WAY better quality that will last alot longer than burtons stuff. and also ok so lets not compare the cartels to the 390's but how about we compare the freestyles or the customs or even the p1's to the 390's targas, flux, kfc's, ride's, and technines. lets go down that rode... now out of all those companies with burton in there. who would all of you pick? im sorry but out of all of them with the lifetime warrantee, the great design, lightweight, ghetto looks, and performance, id have to say technine, second choice flux, then rome then ride, after that kfc. 

now lets relate this to skating, pro's all skated mini-logo's as they were kids because of the fact that they went through decks as fast as they changed their boxers. every deck is designed differently has different wood, heavier lighter, thinner, thicker, more pop, less pop. how is it that they can transition to whatever company will give them the most money? OH YEAH I KNOW!!!! its because they want the money and they can transition to anything, for them they barly need to get used to a different deck to have everything else down. now snowboarding? lets leave the magnatraction out of this because that does take some practice to get better with but every board has so much different technology from the other, the rider needs to look into this technology to know what board is best for him, what board fits his style vs what board is made for what. you should know whats in the board not whats on it. the pros it really doesnt matter they can spin a bs 720 np on a 60 footer, look at shaun white, he took his pipeboard out on the slopestyle course because his cracked and he STILL took 3 despite the different technology and setup. but us average joe riders? we need to know what is best for us for what we are going to do on the mountain. and im sorry but these kids with their customs or cartels in the damn park? thats bad. honestly, try to bend a highback of a custom or a p1 and tell me how far it goes. THEN take a 390.
also because these riders are pro's and do not have to put a penny on their equipment, they could care less if it cracks, breaks, gets a gash or whatever, thats why they go with whoever offers the more money. look at jp walker, he was on forum for a number of years... where is he? :O HES ON STEPCHILD?!?!?! HOLY SHIT I WONDER WHY?!?!?!??!? DOES ANYONE KNOW?!?!?!?!?!?!?! 

you my friend are done.


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## Minger (Jan 24, 2008)

zumiezrep24 said:


> no lines in the terrain park, nothing getting messed up by people who think that theyre shaun white ect ect...
> 
> ...you my friend are done.


My question is when will you be done? and how exactly would there not be any lines in the terrain park if not for burton? I fail to see your logic...I'm assumign people go to terrain parks because they're fun?


Anyways, I have Burton Missions and they're pretty good.


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## Guest (Feb 5, 2008)

PapaWood said:


> I only speculated that the materials were produced by DuPont and also only speculated that they were even made at the same place. If the materials are both made of glass filled nylon, they will be reasonably equal in strength, weight and flex. If they were both produced by DuPont for snowboarding companies, it is more than reasonable to assume they will be of a similar (most likely identical) composition. In addition, I never stated that they would be the same binding so your chevy argument is invalid. I was aiming to shoot down zumiezreps statement that the Cartel used cheap and low quality plastic which it does not.


yeah about that. then why do they break more frequently than romes? hm. yeah. im not too sure either... different materials you can notice that by the feel of riding and touching. and im not talking about the paintjob.


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## Guest (Feb 5, 2008)

zumiezrep24 said:


> actually that can go both ways thats debatable but burton does consider that one of their primary park bindings. and you know you dont want a stiff binding in the park because stiff highbacks or plastic heelcups + hxc riding = CRACK.


You definetly don't want a stiff binding with a 'skyback' in the park, I obviously agree with you on that. I thought the Cartel was a all mountainish binding with a bit more of a freeride focus. 

What I'm saying is that if someone buys Cartels with the really tall highback version and not the loback version or w/e its called or a less stiff binding to use STRICTLY for park, should we blame Burton for that? Clearly there are pros and cons to stiff bindings versus flexible bindings. If a binding is stiff, you get better response for hard carving, but if you use it in the park, since its not flexible, if you bend it enough, it will break. Now if you have a flexible binding, its great for the park and won't snap as easily but it won't be nearly as responsive on your hard carving. 

So my belief is that if someone buys a stiff binding such as the cartels to use STRICTLY as a park binding, they should know what they're getting in to. If someone used Targas in the park vs 390's, is that Rome's fault?


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## Guest (Feb 5, 2008)

Minger said:


> My question is when will you be done? and how exactly would there not be any lines in the terrain park if not for burton? I fail to see your logic...I'm assumign people go to terrain parks because they're fun?
> 
> 
> Anyways, I have Burton Missions and they're pretty good.


what other bindings have you ridden? and think. youve got all these kids that wanna get into snowboarding. why? because of the burton name. thats basically it. i mean if it werent as popular as skating then they would think the same as they do with skating. gay **** pushing wood around.


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## Guest (Feb 5, 2008)

zumiezrep24 said:


> youve got all these kids that wanna get into snowboarding. why? because of the burton name.


Sorry, but you think it's bad that they're getting kids into snowboarding?


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## romesaz (Nov 21, 2007)

zumiezrep24 said:


> ....
> now lets relate this to skating, pro's all skated mini-logo's as they were kids because of the fact that they went through decks as fast as they changed their boxers. every deck is designed differently has different wood, heavier lighter, thinner, thicker, more pop, less pop. how is it that they can transition to whatever company will give them the most money? OH YEAH I KNOW!!!! its because they want the money and they can transition to anything, for them they barly need to get used to a different deck to have everything else down. now snowboarding? lets leave the magnatraction out of this because that does take some practice to get better with but every board has so much different technology from the other, the rider needs to look into this technology to know what board is best for him, what board fits his style vs what board is made for what. you should know whats in the board not whats on it. the pros it really doesnt matter they can spin a bs 720 np on a 60 footer, look at shaun white, he took his pipeboard out on the slopestyle course because his cracked and he STILL took 3 despite the different technology and setup. but us average joe riders? we need to know what is best for us for what we are going to do on the mountain. and im sorry but these kids with their customs or cartels in the damn park? thats bad. honestly, try to bend a highback of a custom or a p1 and tell me how far it goes. THEN take a 390.
> also because these riders are pro's and do not have to put a penny on their equipment, they could care less if it cracks, breaks, gets a gash or whatever, thats why they go with whoever offers the more money. look at jp walker, he was on forum for a number of years... where is he? :O HES ON STEPCHILD?!?!?! HOLY SHIT I WONDER WHY?!?!?!??!? DOES ANYONE KNOW?!?!?!?!?!?!?!
> 
> you my friend are done.


So, what you're saying is that I'm right?
I don't see your logic here.
You said before, that for top riders it doesn't matter what equipment they ride.
Then you said, top riders ride anything other than, say, burton or flow.... 
But now you're saying that top riders look around for what board fits their needs, and suits their riding. Or do you make exceptions for the riders I've named? Are they just special cases, also brain washed by the evil Burton?
Let's ignore Shaun White. He was practically raised by Burton, but what about Ruef, Mueller, Terje, De Marchi, Jones, etc etc etc


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## Guest (Feb 5, 2008)

ndiggity said:


> You definetly don't want a stiff binding with a 'skyback' in the park, I obviously agree with you on that. I thought the Cartel was a all mountainish binding with a bit more of a freeride focus.
> 
> What I'm saying is that if someone buys Cartels with the really tall highback version and not the loback version or w/e its called or a less stiff binding to use STRICTLY for park, should we blame Burton for that? Clearly there are pros and cons to stiff bindings versus flexible bindings. If a binding is stiff, you get better response for hard carving, but if you use it in the park, since its not flexible, if you bend it enough, it will break. Now if you have a flexible binding, its great for the park and won't snap as easily but it won't be nearly as responsive on your hard carving.
> 
> So my belief is that if someone buys a stiff binding such as the cartels to use STRICTLY as a park binding, they should know what they're getting in to. If someone used Targas in the park vs 390's, is that Rome's fault?


targas are a park binding too. but yeah that is the consumers fault and that is what i am trying to get at. its all these kids that dont know anything. i appreciate people in these forums asking questions dumb or hard questions they need to be answered equally and thats what i am doing. a kid in a thread here wanted cartel bindings and said that he was going to be doing alotta park riding. now. shouldnt have he done a little more research? yup. and the 390s have a flexpoint. its where the binding flexes in what senarios. such as if you lean straight back its not gonna bend. if you lean back on an angle such as you would when your twisting onto a box and trying not to catch your edge on it? then yes its gonna bend. customs and p1's dont do that. and i also hate how people are saying im narrowminded on here when im the one opening my eyes and actually looking into this shit and seeing it all happen. i mean honestly a kid with a burton board boots and bindings isnt narrowminded because thats what pappawood or whatever said. what a tard.


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## Minger (Jan 24, 2008)

zumiezrep24 said:


> what other bindings have you ridden? and think. youve got all these kids that wanna get into snowboarding. why? because of the burton name. thats basically it. i mean if it werent as popular as skating then they would think the same as they do with skating. gay **** pushing wood around.


Eh, they're the only ones I've had, but they feel solid and I don't htink they're going to break anytime soon. Regardless, I'm thinking they're gonna be worth the 85 I paid.

Anyways, maybe I'm one of those kids that wants to get into snowboarding? Sure, tricks look cool, but they're not me - I just got bored of skiing...maybe people just wanted a winter sport?


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## romesaz (Nov 21, 2007)

zumiezrep24 said:


> targas are a park binding too. but yeah that is the consumers fault and that is what i am trying to get at. its all these kids that dont know anything. i appreciate people in these forums asking questions dumb or hard questions they need to be answered equally and thats what i am doing. a kid in a thread here wanted cartel bindings and said that he was going to be doing alotta park riding. now. shouldnt have he done a little more research? yup. and the 390s have a flexpoint. its where the binding flexes in what senarios. such as if you lean straight back its not gonna bend. if you lean back on an angle such as you would when your twisting onto a box and trying not to catch your edge on it? then yes its gonna bend. customs and p1's dont do that. and i also hate how people are saying im narrowminded on here when im the one opening my eyes and actually looking into this shit and seeing it all happen. i mean honestly a kid with a burton board boots and bindings isnt narrowminded because thats what pappawood or whatever said. what a tard.


That is NOT what he meant by narrowminded. 
You are STILL missing the whole point.


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## schmitty34 (Dec 28, 2007)

zumiezrep24 said:


> and think. youve got all these kids that wanna get into snowboarding. why? because of the burton name. thats basically it. i mean if it werent as popular as skating then they would think the same as they do with skating. gay **** pushing wood around.


I'd blame the X Games for creating more interest in snowboarding more than Burton. It's not like some lazy, xbox playing kid, sitting on his couch at home sees a Burton commercial and says, "wow, Burton is cool, I want to ride." No, he sees SNOWBOARDING on TV and thinks it is cool. He may choose Burton because it has the most exposure, but he's not snowboarding because of Burton. You give them way too much credit. 

It's like poker. Everyone plays texas hold'm because of espn2 putting it on TV. Not because of the actual poker players.


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## Guest (Feb 5, 2008)

zumiezrep24 said:


> yeah about that. then why do they break more frequently than romes? hm. yeah. im not too sure either... different materials you can notice that by the feel of riding and touching. and im not talking about the paintjob.


Your claim that they even break more is unproveable. Compare how many burton bindings you see on the mountain compared to how many bindings, then compare how many break. I bet you'll find the percentages are practically the same.


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## Guest (Feb 5, 2008)

zumiezrep24 said:


> targas are a park binding too. but yeah that is the consumers fault and that is what i am trying to get at. its all these kids that dont know anything. i appreciate people in these forums asking questions dumb or hard questions they need to be answered equally and thats what i am doing. a kid in a thread here wanted cartel bindings and said that he was going to be doing alotta park riding. now. shouldnt have he done a little more research? yup. and the 390s have a flexpoint. its where the binding flexes in what senarios. such as if you lean straight back its not gonna bend. if you lean back on an angle such as you would when your twisting onto a box and trying not to catch your edge on it? then yes its gonna bend. customs and p1's dont do that. and i also hate how people are saying im narrowminded on here when im the one opening my eyes and actually looking into this shit and seeing it all happen. i mean honestly a kid with a burton board boots and bindings isnt narrowminded because thats what pappawood or whatever said. what a tard.


Targa's are a park binding? I thought the 390's were their park binding and the Targa was a stiffer version with more features with more of an emphasis on freeriding. Well, I learn something new everyday.

But yes, if someone was looking at Cartels for a park binding, that is probably not the best option. But as for narrowminded, I have to ask. If someone had everything rome, would you consider them narrowminded?


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## romesaz (Nov 21, 2007)

PapaWood said:


> Your claim that they even break more is unproveable. Compare how many burton bindings you see on the mountain compared to how many bindings, then compare how many break. I bet you'll find the percentages are practically the same.


Isn't this what I've been saying over and over and over...


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## Guest (Feb 5, 2008)

ndiggity said:


> Targa's are a park binding? I thought the 390's were their park binding and the Targa was a stiffer version with more features with more of an emphasis on freeriding. Well, I learn something new everyday.
> 
> But yes, if someone was looking at Cartels for a park binding, that is probably not the best option. But as for narrowminded, I have to ask. If someone had everything rome, would you consider them narrowminded?


eyup. i would actually.


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## Guest (Feb 5, 2008)

romesaz said:


> Isn't this what I've been saying over and over and over...


your right it is unprovable but ask around, be bold, thats how i get these stories. i ask people on the mountain. thats how you guys are only reading reviews on shit and not getting the real consumers who have had problems with thems opinions. :laugh:


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## Guest (Feb 5, 2008)

schmitty34 said:


> I'd blame the X Games for creating more interest in snowboarding more than Burton. It's not like some lazy, xbox playing kid, sitting on his couch at home sees a Burton commercial and says, "wow, Burton is cool, I want to ride." No, he sees SNOWBOARDING on TV and thinks it is cool. He may choose Burton because it has the most exposure, but he's not snowboarding because of Burton. You give them way too much credit.
> 
> It's like poker. Everyone plays texas hold'm because of espn2 putting it on TV. Not because of the actual poker players.


youve gotta pretty good point. but burton is still the first brand they look at because of shaun white in the x games. i get where your coming from.


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## Guest (Feb 5, 2008)

zumiezrep24 said:


> your right it is unprovable but ask around, be bold, thats how i get these stories. i ask people on the mountain. thats how you guys are only reading reviews on shit and not getting the real consumers who have had problems with thems opinions. :laugh:


So your opinions do not come from your own experiences, but rather from the opinions of other bandwagon idiot haters on the mountain? That makes sense then why you are so adamant about hating on burton. Let me ask you this, how many people who were using Burton bindings tell you that they hated them? Be honest, for once.


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## alaric (Aug 28, 2007)

+100 for Papa. Thank you for the response earlier by the way Papa, it was nice not being bashed.

Everyone, think of this. Why must you bash a brand? Shit, just because you've had bad experience doesn't mean someone else is going to. Just say "Hey, I don't recommend this, because of this, but it's your call on what you want to buy." Bashing a product is pointless. Shit, I don't like Burton, but I met a guy in the park who really likes their shit. Good for him, it works for him. If it ain't broken, don't fix it.

This is what I'm saying... just drop it. You've all expressed opinions. It's cool. If you want to bicker more, take it to PM's.

Oh yeah. Who the fuck cares if a kid who never has snowboarded walks into a shop and picks up nothing but Burton? What's it matter? Shit, props to Burton for getting the kid into the sport.


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## Guest (Feb 26, 2008)

This is quite a Burton...um discussion. I actually just joined this forum because of it. Don't know if anyones still active on this thread but heres my view. My roomate's a really good park boarder and he loves his Burtons. He mainly just loves the straps and toecap. Not sure if zumiezrep24` would consider this guy narrow minded but he rides a burton board and burton bindings and ... 32 boots. From what I've heard, the design of Burton bindings are pretty good.

Here the question I have.
It seems to me that people mostly complains about how the heelcups on Burtons are plastic and how they "break easily". Forum's higher end bindings like the Arena and Republic seem almost just like Burtons with a different highback and ALUMINIUM frame. Does this then make Forums the ultimate Burton binding?


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## Guest (Feb 26, 2008)

two things...one the bindings you got are not the best....they dont even have toe caps on them....step up the game on your bindings man toe caps are a whole new world....and two i had a pair of 07 cartels and no cracking in them and trust me i put them to the test like no other


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## indoblazin (Feb 28, 2008)

I gotta say, this has been an interesting (and long) thread. Since I made it this far, I'm gonna throw in my two cents.

Since I'm relatively new to the game, I've only ridden my current setup: '08 Burton Air/Customs/Salomon Dialogues this season, and some random borrowed crap last season. I've had two problems with my Customs: 

1) I cracked the plastic washer piece that bolts the highback to the chassis by putting pressure downwards on the top of the highback I think when I was leaning on it to get up. That was surprising 'cuz it really wasn't that much pressure. I'd have to chalk that up to poor design.

2) The holes in the baseplate that the screws go through have worn to the point that they are no longer circles but like, oblong ovals. I suppose because I used to never tighten my screws until I felt my bindings get loose, so maybe that's from the binding moving around. I learned my lesson from that: check screws before every session.

So if you ask me, I'd say the Customs are fine for a beginning rider or pure park stunting, but if you like to ride real hard then you'll wear the shit out of them. Not only that, but they're sketchy as hell on blacks, deep powder steeps, and pretty much anything that is gonna put undue stress on them. But then again what do you expect from a low-end freestyle binding.

I don't think people should hate on Burtons just 'cuz it's Burton/Nike/Starbucks/Walmart/whatever but take it on a case-by-case basis. Customs + hardcore freeriding = replacement parts. Get the best bindings specialized for what you're using it for and you'll probably be okay. 

BTW, I've got a set of Ride RXs on the way -- can anybody tell me what they think about these? I was considering getting Cartels although they're a bit pricier, but wanted to try something other than Big Bad Burtons.


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## Guest (Feb 29, 2008)

just to point out we were talking about the cartels....the customs are a few steps below the cartels but i had a set of custom brews on my strictly park board this year and i rode the hell out of them with 65 days in this season to date and havnt had a problem yet


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## Guest (Feb 29, 2008)

This was a very informative thread, and often at times reminds me of the bashing that happens on the Mitsubishi and Mazda forums. I agree with the philosophy that you can have a bad experience with stuff, get a review or story out there, and let everyone else decide if they are going with the same brand/model.

Since this is a thread about picking bindings, I thought I'd throw my questions in here. I haven't found a noob guide to bindings, and I am a big time noob. I bought my Salomon SP3 bindings 8 years ago and they are still pretty much new. I'm thinking next season I might get new ones just because technology has come a long way in 8 years. I was just at a store with a 50%-70% off blow out sale, but when I pick up a binding the only thing I notice is the weight and the padding. Everything else looks the same to me. I mostly free ride, but I like to get into the park every now and then and go off of jumps (no rails, pipes, etc .... yet). Other than that all the bindings look the same to me.

1) What are some of the things to look for? (how to distinguish good build quality)
2) What makes a binding more park/freeride friendly, and how can I tell when holding the binding?
3) I couldn't care less about brand names, I just want what's best for my riding style and hopefully get it at a good price.


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## indoblazin (Feb 28, 2008)

elementman711 said:


> just to point out we were talking about the cartels....the customs are a few steps below the cartels but i had a set of custom brews on my strictly park board this year and i rode the hell out of them with 65 days in this season to date and havnt had a problem yet


Well technically this thread was originally about Rome Targas/Union Force DLX/Burton P1, but in typical fashion it kinda derailed  I was just giving my personal experience with Burtons since that what this thread seems to have turned into. 

The broke piece I mentioned is actually common to the Cartel up to the Escapades, which my gf has on her board, and I suspect on all Burton bindings. Same thing with the baseplate, I think.


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