# Feedback on turning



## kino (Apr 1, 2011)

hi guys, long time lurker here 

I'm a beginner learning how to link turns. I've got a video of me slowly going down a blue run. I'm just wondering if anyone can give any feedback on if what im doing is correct and any improvements that i can do. I still find it a challenge to do it on steep and bump runs ><

Fast forward to 0:25 pls


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## Jollybored (Nov 7, 2011)

Hey mate, is that at Whakapapa?


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## kino (Apr 1, 2011)

yes it is  last weekend!


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## bseracka (Nov 14, 2011)

Sorry I couldn't make it all the way through your video. What I did watch looks like skidded turns and that you're ruddering your back leg to turn. Turn initiation should be taking place at your front foot and begining of the effective edge. At this point it looks like the other issue is your lack of speed. It is more challenging to initiate at the front with out speed. With increased speed turns will become easier to initiate and you will be able to increase your edge angle. In the video your edge angle is pretty flat to the surface when turning, this makes it difficult to turn and increases edge catch.

Posture wise you're pretty upright. You'll want to bend your knees more and use your toe and heel pressure to turn.


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## IdahoFreshies (Jul 9, 2011)

Honestly, didn't look too bad. First and fore most, go faster. It's harder to figure out where you need improvement if you are only doing slow, half assed turns at 7 mph. At that slow speed your movements are going to be sloppy. And like mentioned before, its harder to make good, clean, fast turns when you are going slow. The hill looks like a crowded cluster fuck with little snow, so that does make it tricky to go fast. It looks like you are turning your head and shoulders where you want to turn, and then bringing the board around which is good. You are sliding around on your edge vs having the board flat and trying to spin, which is good for avoiding catching an edge. Unless you are bombing something and intentionally going flat based you should always be on an edge. That's where the control is, and it will keep you from eating shit. The one thing I noticed is that you should try to get a more aggressive and confident stance. That will also come out and be more important when you go faster. It just kind of looks like a wet noodle strapped to the board. Don't necessarily tense up, but tighten up how you are standing and moving. Bend your knees a bit (important for handling faster runs and the bumps) and get a more poised stance, to be ready to make fast adjustments and quick movements. My buddy does the same thing, hes a good rider, but he just doesn't ride serious enough. He just kind of stands on the board and lets it carry him down the hill and it shows because he falls a lot more on simple stuff like a turn, and it's just a lot more sloppy. It almost looks like he is giving it 60%. So take it to some faster runs, and go faster, and you will HAVE to get into more of an athletic stance or you won't be able to react fast enough. Then take another video. my .02


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## jdang307 (Feb 6, 2011)

kino said:


> hi guys, long time lurker here
> 
> I'm a beginner learning how to link turns. I've got a video of me slowly going down a blue run. I'm just wondering if anyone can give any feedback on if what im doing is correct and any improvements that i can do. I still find it a challenge to do it on steep and bump runs ><
> 
> ...


You look like you're still uncomfortable with speed. That actually looks like some fun trails but not great for learning to turn and gather speed. You're doing a lot of feathering it seems


Btw, what is up with the traffic jam at 4:30? :laugh: And after that the trails look dangerous for newbies from the video. Steep drop offs and rocks everywhere?


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## beall (Sep 9, 2011)

Very useful information from everyone's feedback. I too starting to learning turning now, I caught a few edges before and I think becuase I did not engage my front foot enough and the speed are another factor of turning the board smoothly.


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## beall (Sep 9, 2011)

How do you maintaining and slow down on cat trails? sometime it is too narrow to do any wide turns for beginners. I tend to feather down in narrow runs.


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## wrathfuldeity (Oct 5, 2007)

kino, you ride better than your boyfriend :thumbsup:. Holy shit there are lots of rocks...idk if you want to go faster without first having good turning control to dodge all the rocks and people on the skinny track. I would advise you to quickly learn to ollie to avoid the gashes in your base. You got a good start and I'd advise a private lesson from a qualified instructor like snowolf to tweak a few things and you'll easily elevate your riding to a new level.


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## Jollybored (Nov 7, 2011)

kino said:


> yes it is  last weekend!


Unfortunately I recognised it due to the lack of snow and pretty crappy conditions 
Was there the weekend before that and it wasnt much better



jdang307 said:


> You look like you're still uncomfortable with speed. That actually looks like some fun trails but not great for learning to turn and gather speed. You're doing a lot of feathering it seems
> 
> 
> Btw, what is up with the traffic jam at 4:30? :laugh: And after that the trails look dangerous for newbies from the video. Steep drop offs and rocks everywhere?


If you go straight instead of going uphill you end up at 2 black runs (albeit it would have been closed due to the lack of snow and exposed rocks) so most people opt for that instead - even if you do make it up, chances are that it will be blocked by a shitload of people and you would have to stop anyway.
That drop looks a bit worse than normal, usually it isnt that nasty, but if you go too far left you hit overhanging rocks, and too far right and you fall off :cheeky4: 
This field just kinda funnels people into narrow places.


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## otisdelarosa (Dec 29, 2011)

Maybe you should try a different place to practice that trick.


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## kino (Apr 1, 2011)

Thank you very VERY much for all of your feedback! There is a common theme where I need to work on so thats awesome  im going to try get out again next month. I will definitely keep your advices in mind. 

Snowolf, I will read over your post over and over like a mantra hehe. I'll try find an wide and open bunny run to practice my stance and turns.

Like Jollybored said the snow was pretty thin on the mountain. Didnt help when i stacked pretty hard when going down the last flat run in high speed....

Haha wrathfuldeity, he's my snowboarding buddy and I wont tell him that lol. he'll stop taking vids for me! He's still learning his turns as well, although he is a bit stubborn in trying to go down the mountain with the falling leaf most of the time.


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## jdang307 (Feb 6, 2011)

I heard about this trick and I don't know if it's any good but go on a bunny run, and take your back foot out of binding and put it on a stomp pad or something.

That way you can't rudder and you get a feel for using the front foot to steer because it's the only thing attached to the board. You can try this without taking your back foot out of the binding as well.

Steering with the front foot is pretty easy and quite enlightening when you do it. For me I just went down an easy run (soft conditions without huge rocks help). Pretend there is a cockroach under your toes. Step on it.Magically the board will turn. Do the same with your heel.

Regarding cat tracks yeah they're scary as hell. There is one at Snow Summit that's like 3 feet wide. It's so narrow that beginners end up shooting it straight (scared to do any turns for fear of flying off the side). I looked back once after a turn and saw my buddy literally riding up the wall and basically landing on his head because he didn't/couldn't turn.


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## beall (Sep 9, 2011)

jdang307 said:


> I heard about this trick and I don't know if it's any good but go on a bunny run, and take your back foot out of binding and put it on a stomp pad or something.
> 
> That way you can't rudder and you get a feel for using the front foot to steer because it's the only thing attached to the board. You can try this without taking your back foot out of the binding as well.
> 
> ...


Actually that is a great idea unstrapping your back foot binding and stearing with your front foot. I discovered while getting off a lift and and slying down on a flat surface I notice that I can ride longer and more stable by controlling my heel and toe side. Pretty much your front foot do all the works. Before I was scared point the board downward and now I can do wide turns and not afraid of leaning downhill. I think once you pass that stage, you are pretty much have confident enough for turns.


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## beall (Sep 9, 2011)

Snowolf said:


> Cat tracks are challenging for new riders. It takes being a lot more dynamic in your riding than most beginner riders are able to do with confidence. The short answer is a lot of very quick, short, open ended shallow turns where you keep the board pointed down the trail all of the time. AT the apex of each shallow turn, kick the tail out toward the sides of the trail to throw snow to the sides. This is a quick braking maneuver that will bleed off speed without steering across the trail.
> 
> Here is a tutorial video that I created covering that exact issue. Take a look and afterward, if you have more questions we can take them from the top and work through them.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the link Snowolf,

I will defintely check it out as I have seem some of your videos before and they are very helpful. Would be good if they comes in a higher res.


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## skip11 (Jan 28, 2010)

Are you from Indonesia kino?


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## gstboy (May 1, 2012)

What kind of jacket are you wearing? I like the style and color of it.


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## kino (Apr 1, 2011)

beall said:


> Actually that is a great idea unstrapping your back foot binding and stearing with your front foot. I discovered while getting off a lift and and slying down on a flat surface I notice that I can ride longer and more stable by controlling my heel and toe side. Pretty much your front foot do all the works. Before I was scared point the board downward and now I can do wide turns and not afraid of leaning downhill. I think once you pass that stage, you are pretty much have confident enough for turns.


i concur, i have issues with going up with t-bars which means I'm not steering particularly well on my front foot


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## kino (Apr 1, 2011)

gstboy said:


> What kind of jacket are you wearing? I like the style and color of it.


burton embark jacket in grinchworm



skip11 said:


> Are you from Indonesia kino?


yep, what gives it away?


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## skip11 (Jan 28, 2010)

Your name on your youtube channel haha. I'm from indo too =).


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## Nito (Oct 16, 2007)

Hi Kino,

I noticed that you are riding a 2013 NS Proto that looks a little small for you. If you could borrow a women's' board in your size (larger), you'll get more grip on edge (stopping and turning) and maybe softer flex (easier turn initiation). If you can't borrow a women's board, try to borrow a jib stick in your size with a narrow waist like the Proto.

Hope this helps - Nito


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## kino (Apr 1, 2011)

skip11 said:


> Your name on your youtube channel haha. I'm from indo too =).


ahh hehe fair enough.



Nito said:


> Hi Kino,
> 
> I noticed that you are riding a 2013 NS Proto that looks a little small for you. If you could borrow a women's' board in your size (larger), you'll get more grip on edge (stopping and turning) and maybe softer flex (easier turn initiation). If you can't borrow a women's board, try to borrow a jib stick in your size with a narrow waist like the Proto.
> 
> Hope this helps - Nito


Wouldn't a women's board have a smaller waist? The reason I'm riding on a mens board is because the waist on the women's board is too narrow for me. I get too much toe overhang.


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## hktrdr (Apr 3, 2012)

kino said:


> Wouldn't a women's board have a smaller waist? The reason I'm riding on a mens board is because the waist on the women's board is too narrow for me. I get too much toe overhang.


What size Proto is that and what is your weight (shouldn't really ask a lady - but it's for a reason  )?


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## kino (Apr 1, 2011)

hehe its fine. I'm 60kgs and my proto is 152


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## skip11 (Jan 28, 2010)

Where do you ride Kino?


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## gstboy (May 1, 2012)

kino said:


> burton embark jacket in grinchworm


Sorry I thought you were a guy, after googling that jacket with thoughts of buying it I realized my mistake.


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## Nito (Oct 16, 2007)

Hi Kino,

It is ok to have some overhang. If you post a picture of your boots strapped onto your board, it can be reviewed by members. Post a few pictures, one with the Proto and other pictures with your boot strapped into other boards that you like to get an opinion.

Hope this helps - Nito


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## kino (Apr 1, 2011)

Will get some photos later on Nito, the board is getting waxed and tuned atm from all the scratches and dint received from rocks lol

Skip11, normally in australia or new zealand 

I found another video that is probably better to see how i turn with more acceleration. Perhaps anyone would be able to see any other bad habits that I've been doing?


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## hktrdr (Apr 3, 2012)

kino said:


> Will get some photos later on Nito, the board is getting waxed and tuned atm from all the scratches and dint received from rocks lol
> 
> Skip11, normally in australia or new zealand
> 
> I found another video that is probably better to see how i turn with more acceleration. Perhaps anyone would be able to see any other bad habis that I've been doing?


To reiterate what others have said already: There is really not much wrong with your riding. There are some areas for improvement - slightly more athletic stance (i.e., bend more at ankles, keep, and hips), slightly more weight forward, slightly less open upper body (that seems to be the case only occasionally) - that will all help reduce/eliminate some of the slight ruddering, but nothing dramatic at all.

Also, I do not think the board is too short for you, but it may well be too wide. Close-up pictures would help, but from the video it kind of looks like there is not enough overhang... If that is the case, it will make it difficult for you to put sufficient pressure on the edge - which does seem to be an issue in both videos.


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## hktrdr (Apr 3, 2012)

To add: Your friend's board looks way to wide for him - the toes of his boots do not even appear to reach the edge of the board, let alone have any overhang at all.

Compare your (and his) set-up with the other rider around 3.30-4.15 in the first video.


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## kino (Apr 1, 2011)

hktrdr said:


> To reiterate what others have said already: There is really not much wrong with your riding. There are some areas for improvement - slightly more athletic stance (i.e., bend more at ankles, keep, and hips), slightly more weight forward, slightly less open upper body (that seems to be the case only occasionally) - that will all help reduce/eliminate some of the slight ruddering, but nothing dramatic at all.
> 
> Also, I do not think the board is too short for you, but it may well be too wide. Close-up pictures would help, but from the video it kind of looks like there is not enough overhang... If that is the case, it will make it difficult for you to put sufficient pressure on the edge - which does seem to be an issue in both videos.


cheers hktrdr. When you say "slightly less open upper body" are you referring to when doing the toe turns fro example, my upper body shouldnt be facing up the hill?

regarding toe overhang, the boots that I'm wearing is a size 9 (mens) nike kaiju. I've always thought that i have enough overhang for the board that I am wearing but I stand to corrected if thats the case. here's a couple of video that perhaps makes it clearer:














hktrdr said:


> To add: Your friend's board looks way to wide for him - the toes of his boots do not even appear to reach the edge of the board, let alone have any overhang at all.
> 
> Compare your (and his) set-up with the other rider around 3.30-4.15 in the first video.


I will let him know about this, thats probably why he has a lot of trouble with initiating turns.


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## hktrdr (Apr 3, 2012)

kino said:


> cheers hktrdr. When you say "slightly less open upper body" are you referring to when doing the toe turns fro example, my upper body shouldnt be facing up the hill?


I meant your countered stance/tendency to not keep your body in line with the board. Snowolf described it much better in his post, so just refer to that.



kino said:


> regarding toe overhang, the boots that I'm wearing is a size 9 (mens) nike kaiju. I've always thought that i have enough overhang for the board that I am wearing but I stand to corrected if thats the case. here's a couple of video that perhaps makes it clearer:


My, you have big feet 
Size 9 on the 152 Proto should be fine. Judging from the videos, you certainly do not have too much overhang. 
Maybe stand on the board with bare feet and see whether your toes and heels reach the edge of the board - or measure following Wired's excellent explanation here.



kino said:


> I will let him know about this, thats probably why he has a lot of trouble with initiating turns.


I suspect that that might be the case. Is he riding a wide board?


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## skip11 (Jan 28, 2010)

@Snowolf: regarding point 2 about rotation. In my CASI level 1 course, I was told to use upper body rotation when initiating turns, especially for beginners. Is this just one of those things where AASI and CASI differs?


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## kino (Apr 1, 2011)

Snowolf said:


> Kino,
> 
> As I said in the PM, your riding is pretty typical for a rider who is making the transition from beginner to intermediate and nothing to be critical of. It is simply time now to advance another notch. The real key to taking your riding to the next level of fun, control and style is to go from this fairly static body movement to dynamic movements.
> 
> ...


thank you snowolf, it took a few tries but now i know what you and the others meant by a 'countered' stance


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## kino (Apr 1, 2011)

hktrdr said:


> I meant your countered stance/tendency to not keep your body in line with the board. Snowolf described it much better in his post, so just refer to that.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I don't know if his board is wide or not but he's wearing a size 8 boot. But it sure does look wide i guess.


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## Nito (Oct 16, 2007)

Hi Kino,

I am making the assumption that you are borrowing the board and binding.

Since you are a slim girl and given you need a wider board; a softer flexing mens park board like the EVO maybe easier for you to learn on. For comparison, a (women's version of the SL) NS Infinity has a flex of 3, a NS SL has a flex of 5, the NS Proto has a flex of 5 and a NS Evo has a flex of 4.

I tried to find a link for the Evo or Proto on a weight vs board length to give you an idea of what lengths (range of board sizes) would help you. But the best I could do was the following.

Backcountry.com Sizing Chart

Also, I would follow the advice about using wired's explanation on boot sizing. For comparison, I wear a size 8.5 Celsius and ride a 157 Proto and weight 170lbs. I'm not thin, so I have to size up to get the extra edge for the ice (Ice Coast).

Hope this helps - Nito


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## kino (Apr 1, 2011)

Nito said:


> Hi Kino,
> 
> I am making the assumption that you are borrowing the board and binding.
> 
> ...


The board and binding is mine 

Im not sure if I need a wider board than the current one, but i will take a photo of my feet on the board when i get it back.


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## Nito (Oct 16, 2007)

Hi Kino,

Sorry for making the wrong assumption and not writing more clearly. I wasn't sure how to reply with a foot in my mouth. So I wrote the following using technical bullets; it doesn't flow as well and it sounds like lecturing.

1) I'm not suggesting you need a wider board; that statement was used as a qualifier to explain why you are using a men's board.

2) Men's boards are stiffer than comparable women's boards; see Never Summer catalog and make comparison between men's and women's version of SL or Evo.

3) Follow Snowolf's advice.

4) In a couple of years, when you have either packed out your boots or out grown your boots; follow Wired's advice about a new boot purchase. I've known many people that bought the wrong boot, myself included. I am not suggesting you have the wrong size boot; rather that boot fit is critical in your situation. You need the smallest boot that will fit comfortably on your feet.

My apologies again Nito


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## baldylox (Dec 27, 2007)

The videos all say private....


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## kino (Apr 1, 2011)

Nito said:


> Hi Kino,
> 
> Sorry for making the wrong assumption and not writing more clearly. I wasn't sure how to reply with a foot in my mouth. So I wrote the following using technical bullets; it doesn't flow as well and it sounds like lecturing.
> 
> ...


1. Gotcha 
2. Will do.
3. Will definitely do! Going up to Mt. Hotham next weekend so hopefully I can apply the advices that the others have given me here.
4. I originally had a Salomon F22 which has one of the smallest footprint i think. I bought the kaiju because i find with the f22, is that it's too thin. I was finding my toes freezing off after a few hours of riding. Once the kaiju packs out, i will definitely look for other boots that has a smaller footprint so that it can comfortably fit a women's board.



cifex said:


> The videos all say private....


fixed!


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## kino (Apr 1, 2011)

so i went up to mt hotham on the weekend and practiced some turns. the weather was perfect as well as the snow! one of the best days i have 






i know i still hang my right arm out and seems to be still countering my stance >< i promise i'll work on it! but i think there's less flailing of the arms now!


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## wrathfuldeity (Oct 5, 2007)

you look much more relaxed...good, 
your upper body is quieter...good,
you are not opening up shoulders...good 
you are using your lower body more....good

improvements
bend your knees a bit more,...really drive your front knee going toeside and sit more for heelside
use your front knee and foot to steer (shift your hips toward the nose abit more when starting the turn and then drive the front knee for toeside or squat more for heelside...but *shift* your hips toward the nose)....your are using your back leg to rudder turns
let your rear leg/knee follow your front leg/knee....no need to push your back foot around.
practice trying to make tighter/more dynamic turns...
perhaps by taking a couple of runs down a black or double black and then go back to the blue/green and be more aggressive in your turning...not necessarily in speed but really making the board cut or rail turns.


UR doing great :thumbsup:


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## hktrdr (Apr 3, 2012)

The more I see the more I believe that the backfoot ruddering (which is still there, while many other things have improved) is due to a combination of a lack of dynamic riding (flexing ankles, knees, and hips) and an oversized/too wide board. As a result, you are lacking both board twist and tilt (and also edge pressure). Consequently, you never get the edge of the board working/engaged in the turn and you have to force the board around through pivoting.
Solution: Really work the board with your lower body and control the twist and tilt - ride the board rather than letting the board carry you downhill. I suspect trying a softer (and maybe narrower board) might really help in this.


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## kino (Apr 1, 2011)

thank you for the advice, I can really count on you guys to give prompt and awesome feedback  being more dynamic is my next step and it will probably fix a lot of things that i'm still struggling with like the backfoot ruddering and shifting my weight more towards the nose.

As with the board, I do feel like the board is a little to stiff for me to actually twist or i just need to work on my leg strength ><


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## Rookie09 (Sep 5, 2012)

beall said:


> How do you maintaining and slow down on cat trails? sometime it is too narrow to do any wide turns for beginners. I tend to feather down in narrow runs.


To maintain a slow speed on the narrow trails you have to make sharp quick cuts. The sharper angle they are, the slower you will go. Carve with a little bit less of an angle, and you will go faster. Your skidded turns look fine, I'd just suggest you lean into your turns a little more and use your edge to carve the trails. You need a little more speed to do this, but once you get it down you will have a lot more control.


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## Solitaire (Dec 6, 2010)

Snowolf said:


> As you ride, imaging your body going straight down the hill while your board is making shallow s turns underneath you. At the outside of every turn, your board is at it's farthest point from you and your legs will be fully extended. As the board crosses underneath you, it will be at it's closest and will require you to flex your legs. This is dynamic riding known as cross under turns because now the board is starting to turn more independent of your entire body. A little bit of swivel in the waist will take place as well.
> 
> That is the goal for dynamic cross under turns. To start getting you there, do some very basic and simple exercises while you are riding. First pick a spot where you have a little more room to make completed turns. That is allowing the board to be completely across the fall line before making your next turn. As you make these linked turns, start playing with this flexing and extending. Before you initiate each turn, flex down to your 8 position and enter the turn. Ad you progress through each turn, gradually extend to your 2 position and pay attention to your timing. You want to reach maximum extension as the board completes each turn so speed up or slow down the movement to coincide with your turn. Drop back down to make the next turn and repeat the process.
> 
> An extension through the control phase of a turn increases edge pressure and helps make for a more powerful turn with less chance of loosing your edge hold. In really steep terrain, dynamic ridiculous is a must to maintain edge hold. On mellow terrain, it is just plain more fun and looks so much better. As you work with this, do these movements faster and tighter and you will really behind to feel this dynamic quality to your riding.


Hey Snowolf - is this part here essentially an introduction to what you call "down un-weighting"? I've been looking for some technical specifics of how to properly perform it, and this looks like a good exercise.


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## Solitaire (Dec 6, 2010)

Snowolf said:


> Yes and no.
> 
> It is a great prerequisite for getting used to allowing the board to ride more independently underneath of you but I really did not get into unweighting with this person yet as it is a little ways past their current progression.
> 
> ...


Bolded part made my day 

Your existing videos helped a tonne throughout my last season. I've got a decent handle on up unweights, and am looking forward to trying out some more advanced stuff this year (especially if it will help out on steeper pitches).


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