# Getting low on the toe



## Scalpelman (Dec 5, 2017)

num said:


> Was watching this video and it was pretty cool seeing how his steep angle setup can let him get really compressed in his turns.
> 
> One thing I don't understand is how you can stick your ass out on your toeside like that and still keep your edge pressure on your toe. It seems that you need to hinge at the hip if you really want to get compressed on your toe and I see so many carvers do this but can someone explain the mechanics here. Is he able to do this because he's riding with an opened stance and can therefore tilt his hips and knees to get his weight over the toe as opposed to pushing his hips forward ?
> 
> In really curious. I'm always able to compress and eat bumps on my heelside which lets me carve bumpier terrain, but my toeside has always felt very "standing upright" since there's only so much compression I can achieve through kneebend with my hips forward.


Yeah sometimes I get too stretched out on toeside. If that happens then you really can’t react to changes in terrain. He’s pushing his hips forward on toeside while staying compact to react to bumps etc. good video. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## freshy (Nov 18, 2009)

I don't know if this necessarily applies because I ride duck and can't get into that compressed position. I bend my ankles and drive my shins into my boot tongue while my torso stays straight., It naturally bends my knees like I'm doing the PeeWee Herman dance. Puts a good amount of extra force/lean into the toeside carve. I also got 9/10 stiffness boots so that makes it easier.


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## num (12 mo ago)

freshy said:


> I don't know if this necessarily applies because I ride duck and can't get into that compressed position. I bend my ankles and drive my shins into my boot tongue while my torso stays straight., It naturally bends my knees like I'm doing the PeeWee Herman dance. Puts a good amount of extra force/lean into the toeside carve. I also got 9/10 stiffness boots so that makes it easier.


yeah that's how I learned how to ride too, with a slightly forward duck - (18,-12). I got pretty solid at carving this way but I tried to go double forward at the end of this season so that I could really focus on carving and getting deep and fast but it was kind of a mess - my toeside got pretty sloppy. Heelside makes perfect sense and feels natural - I could get more angle without hanging my ass as far over the board. 

I found on toeside my backfoot was overworked and my rear ankle got kind of shot. Maybe I need to make a conscious effort to square up my shoulder on toeside since the +/+ posture rotates my body open by default, or maybe I need to embrace the more open posture and just hinge at the hips to get low and create additional suspension. Maybe a bit of both. I want to experiment but alas, end of the season!


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## num (12 mo ago)

Scalpelman said:


> Yeah sometimes I get too stretched out on toeside. If that happens then you really can’t react to changes in terrain. He’s pushing his hips forward on toeside while staying compact to react to bumps etc. good video.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


definitely part of my problem I'm realizing, I think I ran too far with the "hips forward" I was told when learning. I guess hips should be more forward then heelside but not so over extended that you become a rigid body from the knees up.

I might try and replicate the form in that video next season, just to see if it feels good for me. my rear ankle is a little crappy compared to my front one so I want to make sure my front foot is working to lighten the load on my toeside. When I experimented with +/+ last season I found my rear foot was going way too deep into dorsiflexion when going over bumps; did not feel good.


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## BoardieK (Dec 21, 2015)

num said:


> ...... but it was kind of a mess - my toeside got pretty sloppy. ......
> I found on toeside my backfoot was overworked and my rear ankle got kind of shot.


I ride high forward angles (30/21) and even with very stiff boots and bindings you really need to go back to basics with turn initiation and press the front knee across the board or else the back foot becomes dominant. I do this with a bit of body rotation as I start the turn, in the video he talks about swinging his arms to help with this.
I rode like you described for a while but also realised toeside was suffering a bit. The other thing I changed is highback angles, back is set quite forward and front quite upright, again to help wit toeside turn initiation.


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## Turms (Jan 14, 2022)

Yeap...generally speaking the Korua boarders have adoptiert the Surf Style snowboarding from Japan...a style that is is very rare and as far as i know not teached in Europe and i think N.America.
Too me, looks like e EU Carve but without the lay down. Go down , bend the knees as much as possible, and trying with the back knee to touch the snow (toe side)...automatically your are going on carving position....(2.16 min)... in the same time you make a slightly hip shoulder rotation....


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## freshy (Nov 18, 2009)

num said:


> yeah that's how I learned how to ride too, with a slightly forward duck - (18,-12). I got pretty solid at carving this way but I tried to go double forward at the end of this season so that I could really focus on carving and getting deep and fast but it was kind of a mess - my toeside got pretty sloppy. Heelside makes perfect sense and feels natural - I could get more angle without hanging my ass as far over the board.
> 
> I found on toeside my backfoot was overworked and my rear ankle got kind of shot. Maybe I need to make a conscious effort to square up my shoulder on toeside since the +/+ posture rotates my body open by default, or maybe I need to embrace the more open posture and just hinge at the hips to get low and create additional suspension. Maybe a bit of both. I want to experiment but alas, end of the season!


I also tried a +/+ stance and I just cant deal with it. Not only is it too uncomfortable, but I still want to launch off stuff sometimes, and take offs landings like that is too unnatural. Might just have to dial the angles in a little more because I can feel the difference carving on my longboard in a +/+ stance. Then again Knapton rides duck so whatever.


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## TrimbleFunky (4 mo ago)

What he's doing won't work on hard snow. Look at the sidecut radius of Korua boards; they are all under 10m(?).

You shouldn't need to go across the fall line for that long on almost any groomed pitch. You can be very fall line oriented and still have speed control. It's a sign of not so efficient edging. Really fun to watch, but it's going to fall apart with any real load.


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## philw (8 mo ago)

BoardieK said:


> ... The other thing I changed is highback angles, back is set quite forward and front quite upright, again to help wit toeside turn initiation.


Don't tell BASI ;-) 
If you look at non-extreme hard boot riders, they use exactly that set up, because the mechanics are the same.



> it's going to fall apart with any real load.


The existence of Slalom racers suggests you're very wrong. Have you tried what he's suggesting?


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## MrDavey2Shoes (Mar 5, 2018)

You should look for the Kijima carving thread. To get you started though, these carves are more dependent on moving your weight nose and tail ways than edge to edge. Just leaning toeside like a normal turn wont get you there.


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## MCrides (Feb 25, 2019)

He explains exactly what you're wondering in the video @ 2:14. Might be easier to accomplish with +/+ but it's the same idea either way.

IMO people take the "don't break at the waist" instruction way too far--it should be "don't break at the waist _*without bending your knees." *_If your knees are bent you can also be bent at the waist and still shift your hips forward, and you don't have to be on a snowboard to feel this out--squat down and move your hips forward and back right now in your house. 

Your center of gravity is an average, not a line that all your parts have to cross.


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## TrimbleFunky (4 mo ago)

philw said:


> The existence of Slalom racers suggests you're very wrong. Have you tried what he's suggesting?


I didn't say the edge angles were extreme. I said the technique he is using wouldn't hold up on hard snow. One of the telltale signs is drawing out the turn for way too long across the fall line and making a turn that is too big for the given sidecut radius.

The Korua Cafe Racer tops out at 8.6m sidecut. That's smaller than any sbx board. You'll see sbx riders using less slope width while freecarving.


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## MrDavey2Shoes (Mar 5, 2018)

TrimbleFunky said:


> I didn't say the edge angles were extreme. I said the technique he is using wouldn't hold up on hard snow. One of the telltale signs is drawing out the turn for way too long across the fall line and making a turn that is too big for the given sidecut radius.
> 
> The Korua Cafe Racer tops out at 8.6m sidecut. That's smaller than any sbx board. You'll see sbx riders using less slope width while freecarving.


1. Those turns work out just fine on hard snow - ask me how I know.
2. The shape of the turns is the whole point, this riding isn’t linear top to bottom. It’s about riding around on the mountain, not riding down the mountain.
3. A CR and a BX are designed to be driven differently and they turn differently but you can do anything on any board really.


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## Balthasar Gelt (Oct 25, 2021)

I've been able to get my carves down, but I realized I making these rookie mistakes of sticking my bum/bending my waist. Especially when I realize touching the snow should be a natural process. Here's a few great videos on how to do the Japanese snowsurf style.






The translations are found in the comments for the next two videos.





Toeside Turns





Heelside Turns

Anyways, I always hear the same tips concerning waist and hip movements. At this point, I'm so confused as to what is what. Such as bending the hips but don't bend the waist. I assumed bending the hips naturally brings the waist out. But, I'm guessing it just means to keep your upper body straight while you're bending at your hips? Can anyone clarify if that's what it actually means?


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## lbs123 (Jan 24, 2017)

Balthasar Gelt said:


> Anyways, I always hear the same tips concerning waist and hip movements. At this point, I'm so confused as to what is what. Such as bending the hips but don't bend the waist. I assumed bending the hips naturally brings the waist out. But, I'm guessing it just means to keep your upper body straight while you're bending at your hips? Can anyone clarify if that's what it actually means?


I believe it refers to getting low without leaning forward and sticking your butt out. Try to squat in front of the mirror without leaning forward - keep your head as much as possible above your center of mass (almost like you lean backward to the point when you'd lose balance), hands parallel to the body. Of course, at some point, your head and butt start to stick out, but it's different from how it would like if you lean forward. (Try that as well to see the difference). One thing which helps me to remember to keep a straight back and not to hunch when getting low is pulling my shoulder blades together (scapular retraction).


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## MrDavey2Shoes (Mar 5, 2018)

Balthasar Gelt said:


> I've been able to get my carves down, but I realized I making these rookie mistakes of sticking my bum/bending my waist. Especially when I realize touching the snow should be a natural process. Here's a few great videos on how to do the Japanese snowsurf style.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It means "squat" dont "bend at the waist" but thats still probably not a great way to explain it. What alot of people dont realize when starting out with this style of turning is that a large part, if not the most important part of getting your turns laid over like this is lateral weight movement (nose to tail). I mean sure you can just muscle it around and get the same results but its not natural. Theres a thread around here started by @Kijima that really touches on alot of good points. I admittedly was a naysayer for the first billion pages of it  but theres something to the "hula hoop"

Edit: apparently I already said this in this thread, oh well. Double Post!


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## Balthasar Gelt (Oct 25, 2021)

Thanks for the clarifications. Next time I’m at the slopes, I’m going to be more conscious about my posture, and definitely keep Kijimas notes in my mind.

It totally is a different feeling from what you experience vs how you look like. Had my friends record me, and my god I was horrified.

But I can definitely see what people mean by bend the hip. Trying to bring the hip into the turn to line up your body over the board.


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## 16gkid (Dec 5, 2012)

Still waiting for a non laid out toe side where your butt isnt sticking out from anyone ... Someone lemme know where you put ur butt 🤷


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## Donutz (May 12, 2010)

Deep carving, Kijima method


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## 16gkid (Dec 5, 2012)

Donutz said:


> Deep carving, Kijima method


God not this again, carving hipsters unite 😆


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## Board Doctor (Feb 1, 2018)

That was really great to see those old school techniques explained really well. Now people talk about Euro carving and getting surfy and contradict some of those teachings… but they worked.

For the arms they use to say to picture driving a bus with a huge steering wheel at waist level. You initiate the turn by starting to turn the wheel. 30 years later… if I find myself flailing around I still think ”just drive the bus”.


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## TrimbleFunky (4 mo ago)

If you keep building pressure on your toes and jut your hip out and arch your back aggressively. You will notice your knees bend purely to add edge angle, not to "just bend knees to get lower on the board doing some squats". If you focus on bending the knees, your lower back is going to flop over and you will be patting the snow.

Do the above aggressively enough that makes you think you are going to high-side blow out of the turn prematurely. The steeper the slope, the more of that terminal feeling you should get like you are just going to "topple over because I'm angulating so hard".

You should get your answer there then. If you are really good, you can get max edge angle right at the fall line or right after; and get all the speed control you need without traversing across forever. I really only ever see this by really good riders with a race background. It's more common to draw out the turn across + up the hill.


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## Balthasar Gelt (Oct 25, 2021)

TrimbleFunky said:


> If you keep building pressure on your toes and jut your hip out and arch your back aggressively. You will notice your knees bend purely to add edge angle, not to "just bend knees to get lower on the board doing some squats". If you focus on bending the knees, your lower back is going to flop over and you will be patting the snow.
> 
> Do the above aggressively enough that makes you think you are going to high-side blow out of the turn prematurely. The steeper the slope, the more of that terminal feeling you should get like you are just going to "topple over because I'm angulating so hard".
> 
> You should get your answer there then. If you are really good, you can get max edge angle right at the fall line or right after; and get all the speed control you need without traversing across forever. I really only ever see this by really good riders with a race background. It's more common to draw out the turn across + up the hill.


Great tip! I always focused way too hard on the knees too, so I guess it doesn't come naturally sometimes. I'll keep this in mind next time I go up. Anyways, do you have any similar tips for the heel side edge? Unless, I'm being an idiot and this applies to both edges, then ignore that question.


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## TrimbleFunky (4 mo ago)

Balthasar Gelt said:


> Great tip! I always focused way too hard on the knees too, so I guess it doesn't come naturally sometimes. I'll keep this in mind next time I go up. Anyways, do you have any similar tips for the heel side edge? Unless, I'm being an idiot and this applies to both edges, then ignore that question.


The knees advice does have validity. Unfortunately you will be taking up excess slack from the flex of your boots most of the time if done right.

For heelside, balance on your heels agressively. And I mean try to smash your toes against the top of your boot level of effort. Do not let up on hard snow, unless you want to chatter.
I'm going to omit some other advice as I think it will hurt you and it goes against traditional instruction possibly. Every variant of the technique you will read up on heelside still relies on the above.

Have fun.


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## Kijima (Mar 3, 2019)

16gkid said:


> Still waiting for a non laid out toe side where your butt isnt sticking out from anyone ... Someone lemme know where you put ur butt 🤷


I worked it out this summer on my skateboard.
Let's be friends this winter and improve everyones turns as a constructive group


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## lbs123 (Jan 24, 2017)

Kijima said:


> I worked it out this summer on my skateboard.
> Let's be friends this winter and improve everyones turns as a constructive group


Edit: Moving my question to the related thread.


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