# What's faster on edge or flat



## kleco63 (Dec 22, 2011)

When my friends and I are just coasting down the greens/ski outs I can't seem to keep up, I'm always on and edge and never have my board flat, is that it issue? I've tried picking diffrent lines and following theres but I'm just slower...
Any help would be great thanks


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## grafta (Dec 21, 2009)

Could be your board's base, or your wax job, or technique.

Some people are more comfortable riding flat based than others so that could definitely be a factor. Flat is faster I believe... that said, i'm not always comfortable riding flat in certain conditions, ie icy rutted ping pong shit. f* that, i'd rather just survive :laugh:


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## NoobBoarder (Jan 25, 2011)

kleco63 said:


> When my friends and I are just coasting down the greens/ski outs I can't seem to keep up, I'm always on and edge and never have my board flat, is that it issue? I've tried picking diffrent lines and following theres but I'm just slower...
> Any help would be great thanks


Going on edge should be faster than flat. Are your friends going on edge?

Maybe you're making larger turns then they are? or perhaps you're skidding a bit and don't realize it (not questioning your ability).

If your board is high on edge and you're making very short radius dynamic carves, you should be going very fast and feel stable.


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## PanHandler (Dec 23, 2010)

could be wax related?


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## grafta (Dec 21, 2009)

Get used to using very subtle edge control, like only _just_ on one edge to remain in control. If you have a catchy board this will help you feel solid :thumbsup:


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## grafta (Dec 21, 2009)

NoobBoarder said:


> Going on edge should be faster than flat. Are your friends going on edge?
> 
> Maybe you're making larger turns then they are? or perhaps you're skidding a bit and don't realize it (not questioning your ability).
> 
> If your board is high on edge and you're making very short radius dynamic carves, you should be going very fast and feel stable.


He's talking about riding-out flat areas. Short radius turns are not appropriate me thinks


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## kleco63 (Dec 22, 2011)

Ya, I'm just talking about the flater areas, I get my board waxed every trip, it's also a new board (2012 NS F1)

And we are pretty much straight lining and they are all faster, I think I'm doing something wrong.... Or could my board be too small I dunno I'm shooting in the dark


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## KIRKRIDER (Mar 18, 2008)

Weight is an issue too...No matter how well I wax mine a heavier rider will always be faster, especially on flats. More momentum


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## wrathfuldeity (Oct 5, 2007)

flat is faster...doesn't matter if ur in the flats or maching a black. You just got to be more subtle and precise and kind of float. If maching and doing flat based on a black you cover alot of ground in a short amount of time.


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## Sudden_Death (Mar 23, 2011)

KIRKRIDER said:


> Weight is an issue too...No matter how well I wax mine a heavier rider will always be faster, especially on flats. More momentum


This, I'm 230 and I blow by kids unstrapped and walking flat areas.:laugh:


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## KIRKRIDER (Mar 18, 2008)

Sudden_Death said:


> This, I'm 230 and I blow by kids unstrapped and walking flat areas.:laugh:


I know..I ride sometimes with a "heavier" friend...no matter what at the end of the run he's ahead.


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## kleco63 (Dec 22, 2011)

Ha ha now I'm really screwed up, I'm easily 20lbs heavier then the next heaviest guy, So fastest is flat no edges? After we all strap in my friends zoom off like a car and I'm like a semi truck getting up to speed, once we are up to speeds on the blue/black we are all pretty much the same speed, how much does the line you choose affect your speed? Quite abit I'm guessing?


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## grafta (Dec 21, 2009)

I usually try to get up high while i have speed, then you can always drop down to gain if you are slowing down on a flat area. You gotta just read the terrain best you can.


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## kleco63 (Dec 22, 2011)

Ya I always hit the drops/dips to try and gain as much speed as I can, but how much speed do you actually gain when the drops/dips come back up a bit? Make sence?


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## Death (Oct 21, 2010)

Everything will affect your speed, your board shape, stiffness, size, your weight, wax job, riding technique, wind, snow conditions. But to answer your question, obviously going flat is faster, but even in a race you'll end up using your edge for a bit of stability every so often.

Because you can't keep up with your friends, chances are you're not riding your edge correctly and instead of carving you're slowing yourself down a little everytime you're on your edge.


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## wrathfuldeity (Oct 5, 2007)

Flat is fastest...period. However flat also feels and is less stable and less in-control to riders who are not at the advanced/expert level. Riding flat is just more an expert level skill set. Once you figure it out, there is a place and purpose for being able to ride flat but you don't want to ride flat all the time or all over the place.

I flat base to get going...for acceleration at the beginning of a run, for skating off a ramp where I want to go some distance, on the flat terrain to avoid skating or walking to get back on a chair, when hiking and there's a slight incline...try just jumping on board...not strapped in, bombing a blue/green run and for short distances while bombing a black...only in certain places with good conditions. The trick is to be light, be loose, be quiet, be subtle, be confident, be relaxed, be well balanced, aligned in a neutral position with a bit of weight on the nose....thus no edges to catch.


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## PanHandler (Dec 23, 2010)

kleco63 said:


> Ya I always hit the drops/dips to try and gain as much speed as I can, but how much speed do you actually gain when the drops/dips come back up a bit? Make sence?


learn how to pump and up-unweight your board.


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## KIRKRIDER (Mar 18, 2008)

PanHandler said:


> learn how to pump and up-unweight your board.



Great point.


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## jely1990 (Dec 30, 2011)

KIRKRIDER said:


> Weight is an issue too...No matter how well I wax mine a heavier rider will always be faster, especially on flats. More momentum


This is most likely it. A friend and I had the same board and were both using the same wax at one point and no matter what on flatter terrain he was faster, because he weighs quite a bit more than I do.


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## kleco63 (Dec 22, 2011)

PanHandler said:


> learn how to pump and up-unweight your board.


I'm lisining…


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## hikeswithdogs (Sep 23, 2011)

Flat(and leaned slightly back) is almost always faster, riding flat this is a skill learned with experience(feels sketchy) also more difficult on rockered boards , never rode a hybrid so I can't comment.


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## PanHandler (Dec 23, 2010)

kleco63 said:


> I'm lisining…


http://www.learntorideaskateboard.com/images/pumping.gif

#6 is called "up-unweighting" in snowboarding but everything here applies in snowboarding.


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## KIRKRIDER (Mar 18, 2008)

kleco63 said:


> I'm lisining…


Easier if you skate / long board. Pumping is the act of weighting the camber of your board at the lower point of a depression, bending your knees and "dropping" your weight on the camber, to have it rebound back at you at the top or going up the other side of the depression...and gain some speed from the process.


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## Clarion (Jan 6, 2011)

There are a lot factors that will affect your speed, velocity, acceleration, force, momentum, and inertia. The biggest factor in snowboarding is friction.

Friction from the wax on the snow will make you go faster because the snow actually melts and turns to a very fine layer of water. Wax will help melt the snow faster thus "glide" downhill faster.

Friction from more surface contact will make you go slower. If you take one ski and one snowboard and release them at the same time, the ski will reach the bottom first because it has less surface area contact. This is an example with very little wind resistance. Also, true, shorter boards and skiis will go faster than longer ones when there is no rider present. Totally different when you put a rider on and the type of conditions.

Friction from wind resistance will make you go slower.

In your case, starting from zero veloctiy on a mild slope in hard pack. Being heavier works against you. You will need to use a method with least surface contact with no carving at all for more speed. Being lighter is advantageous UNLESS you have really strong head wind because the force required to push back against the wind is greater. That is why on the steeper runs you can keep up with your friends because wind resistance plays more of a factor.

Example, rider1=50kg and rider2=80kg on a 4 degree slope and 20 degree slope.
Rider1 = 50*9.8*sin(4) = 34 Newtons and 50*9.8*sin(20)=168N on 20 degree slope.
Rider2 = 80*9.8*sin(4) = 55 Newtons and 80*9.8*sin(20)= 268N on 20 degree slope.

Force difference of 11N on a 4 degree slope not that big thus friction from surface contact will play more of a factor in slowing you down.

Force difference of 100N on 20 degree slope is significant especially now the conditions have changed where wind resistance plays more of a factor in slowing you down.

Back to the case for surface contact - a shorter board will help you go faster on hard pack but then you give up stability at high speeds. On magical powder, the longer the better because your boards needs to keeps you on top of the snow (less surface friction) and not sink in it (more surface friction).

Now in the case of a heavier rider blowing past kids on flat areas, did they both start from stop? Was the kids board waxed? Was the kids board the same quality as the adult board? Did the adult and the kid have same rider ability? Did they do anything to create more momentum at the start like jibbing forward or throwing your weight forward? That changes everything. But in general heavier riders blow past lighter ones on flat areas because they've already built up more force from the momentum on the previous downhill portion. OR, the flat area was long enough that the small difference on force eventually took over other factors due to a longer continuous distance on a mild slope.

How come people on ski blades go slower than alpine skiers? Now your taking into account riding style which is also a big factor... But, in physics, all things being equal but the equipment the person on ski blades will go faster. How? Here's how. Same mass, same decline, same rider ability, same rider stance, starting from stop, on hard pack, same wind resistance and ZERO carving (straight line only). You will see which one reaches the bottom first.

In the end, just ride and have fun.


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## Death (Oct 21, 2010)

kleco63 said:


> I get my board waxed every trip


I just saw this, you wax it every time? 

This could easily be your problem, you don't want to know how many times I've seen people get their board waxed and not being able to move at all on the hill. Learn to wax yourself, there is a chance you're getting it done and it's actually hindering your riding.


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## kleco63 (Dec 22, 2011)

@Clarion nicely put

Yes I get my board waxed everytime, but I had no clue that would hinder anything?

I've got all the tools and wax to do it myself but for $10.00 I just take it in after every ride


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## PanHandler (Dec 23, 2010)

Snowolf said:


> Panhander...reduce the size of your image bro!
> 
> Flat is usually faster in most conditions. There are conditions however where riding flat is not faster. This is your typically wet spring conditions like after it dumps 4 or 5 inches then the sun comes out and bakes it turning it into sticky peanut butter snow. A flat base in this shit is like trying to ride on velcro. Here you have to ride on edge to avoid getting stuck due to surface tension. In other conditions, I do feel flat based is faster and to get across a flat, if you get way back into a tail press it helps as there is now less drag because less of the board is on the snow.


Sorry. i have a chrome plugin that auto re-sizes images to the window, so i didnt realize it was too big. i made it a link instead.



Snowolf said:


> Nope, that movement is a down unweight...
> 
> An up unweight is a rapid extension to pop up and unweight the board. A rapid flexing down or drop is a down unweight.


I thought it was up-unweighting when you sucked the board up towards your chest, and down unweighting when you extend your legs im probably wrong on this though.


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## AAA (Feb 2, 2008)

Technique aside, base structure, wax type, and application play a big role, too. Wrong structure, wrong wax, poor job, or no wax job = slower and VERY noticable to the rider. The wrong wax in the right condition, in fact, will have you feeling like you're "stuck" in the snow. I had to break out my credit card once to scrape excess wax off another's rental board that was apparently given a cheap drum wax and just wouldn't go. Board size plays a big factor, too. I ride a 182 that is more than a little faster than the more common 150s and 160s, and never gets stuck on flats where others are schlepping across. Pulling away from a crowd is also not a problem.


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## grafta (Dec 21, 2009)

AAA said:


> Board size plays a big factor, too. *I ride a 182* that is more than a little faster than the more common 150s and 160s,


:laugh:

thread jack I know, but what the hell?!


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## ShredLife (Feb 6, 2010)

Snowolf said:


> In other conditions, I do feel flat based is faster and to get across a flat, if you get way back into a tail press it helps as there is now less drag because less of the board is on the snow.





hikeswithdogs said:


> Flat(and leaned slightly back) is almost always faster, riding flat this is a skill learned with experience(feels sketchy) also more difficult on rockered boards , never rode a hybrid so I can't comment.


leaning back will only make you go faster on the uphill or on slightly uphill sections of the flats. otherwise you want your weight on your front foot. to go as fast as you can (especially on flats) you need to pump your weight down on top of your front foot.

if you can ride flat-based switch you'll notice that in sections that you normally get stuck in the flats, riding them switch will cause you to have more weight downhill (as long as your stance is not centered) and go faster - and make it thru

if that made any sense at all.... i promise it's true tho


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## grafta (Dec 21, 2009)

Snowolf said:


> Yep totally made sense. I was referring to flats or slight uphill too. An example is that fucking hill coming out of Heather Canyon just before the lift. I bomb that as fast as I can go and pump the shit out of the transition then tail press my way over the top. An hour with a fucking bulldozer in the summer would make everyone's lives a little easier! It was great last year after the avalanche; no more fucking hill thanks to avalanche debris 50 feet deep!


Oh the fun some of us could have with a bulldozer (and chainsaw ) in the off-season


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