# Carving in chop?



## phile00 (Jan 7, 2009)

Although, I'm really trying to get into doing park this year, when it comes to just free riding, I find I have difficulty carving in chop. I have an all mountain board, and I find it hard to commit to carving in heavily choppy snow. Take a trail with a 30 degree average pitch and a couple spots with a 40 degree pitch, that pretty much mostly skiers hit, so it creates a mogul-like/choppy atmosphere. 

Rider stats:
Weight: 125 lbs.
Board size: 149cm
Board: Bataleon Goliath

Anyhow, my knees are always nice and bent, and I absorb shock very well, but I just feel unstable when going fast and carving in chop. My friends don't ride as often as I do, so I go by myself a lot, so I have no frame of reference. Anyhow, I seem to have to relegate to dynamic skidded turns in chop. I also feel like my light weight doesn't help at all. 

Thoughts?


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## baldylox (Dec 27, 2007)

You and me both, bud. It's damn near impossible. Don't forget skiers have twice the effective edge. The proper technique for steeper terrain is cross-through, but doing isn't the same as knowing what you should be doing. The only place I've seen a good explanation is at alpinecarving.com but you have to keep in mind they are rinding 60, 60 angles and translate the text accordingly. I can get it down out west on steeper groomed runs with great conditions but out here I just can't do it on the steeps. Throw in chop and it's hopeless. :dunno:


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## wrathfuldeity (Oct 5, 2007)

Abit unsure of what you are asking...in that you are talking park, moguls and chop...three different things. Park stuff should be fairly groomed thus shouldn't be getting tossed, moguls are moguls they can be hard, packed or soft, and if its choppy, it depends on the chop...is it soft and you blast through it or is it mash potato chop where you get bounced.

Thus chop...if its soft and fluffy and you can blast through an all mtn board should do fine...just trust the board and ride it. If its mash potato then you are going to get your legs worked to keep from getting tossed and it won't be like carving...it will be more like rodeo bull riding...where you will have to anticipate and prepare for the chop and need a board that is not too soft (which will buck you) but one that is stiff enough but also agile to work around. Hope this makes sense.


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## Veccster (Dec 31, 2007)

We usually have well groomed slopes here in Western PA but had so much snow this year that I have gotten my taste of riding in chop. I had a stiffer all-mtn board and could manage some carves but mostly just bounce from edge to edge to stay in control. 

Chop has varying degrees to it though. Some of our rougher areas are like randomly scattered moguls (from people checking or stopping). I actually love these areas and ride it like a mogul run. Takes good reaction timing and is a workout on your legs (from absorbing bumps). It also provides a lot of little jumps for quick grabs mid-slope. I like it.


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## Mr. Polonia (Apr 5, 2009)

phile00 said:


> I'm really trying to get into doing park this year, but I find I have difficulty carving in chop. I have an all mountain board, and I find it hard to commit to carving in heavily choppy snow. Take a trail with a 30 degree average pitch and a couple spots with a 40 degree pitch, that pretty much mostly skiers hit, so it creates a mogul-like/choppy atmosphere.
> 
> Rider stats:
> Weight: 125 lbs.
> ...



The only thing you cant do at this point is to keep your legs extra noodley when ur about to go over chop to keep your board from lift off...
I love going over chop but its damn near impossible to carve since carving requires digging in your front edge to initaite the turn.

You pretty much got it right...skidded turns is the way to go


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## phile00 (Jan 7, 2009)

wrathfuldeity said:


> Abit unsure of what you are asking...in that you are talking park, moguls and chop...three different things. Park stuff should be fairly groomed thus shouldn't be getting tossed, moguls are moguls they can be hard, packed or soft, and if its choppy, it depends on the chop...is it soft and you blast through it or is it mash potato chop where you get bounced.
> 
> Thus chop...if its soft and fluffy and you can blast through an all mtn board should do fine...just trust the board and ride it. If its mash potato then you are going to get your legs worked to keep from getting tossed and it won't be like carving...it will be more like rodeo bull riding...where you will have to anticipate and prepare for the chop and need a board that is not too soft (which will buck you) but one that is stiff enough but also agile to work around. Hope this makes sense.


Hey, I edited my post to clarify. What I meant was I'm really working on park more than anything, but I still have this issue with free riding. And when I'm talking chop, I'm talking about natural moguls made by skiers by following the same paths and the associated chop that goes with it also. Not groomed moguls. I'm talking about mashed potato chop where it gets bouncy. I can't freakin' carve through it!


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## phile00 (Jan 7, 2009)

cifex said:


> You and me both, bud. It's damn near impossible. Don't forget skiers have twice the effective edge. The proper technique for steeper terrain is cross-through, but doing isn't the same as knowing what you should be doing. The only place I've seen a good explanation is at alpinecarving.com but you have to keep in mind they are rinding 60, 60 angles and translate the text accordingly. I can get it down out west on steeper groomed runs with great conditions but out here I just can't do it on the steeps. Throw in chop and it's hopeless. :dunno:


I'll check that out, never heard of cross-through. Is that like a dynamic skidded turn?



> You also have to recognize that in some conditions, carving is damn near impossible and is definitely impractical. Pick the technique for the conditions. In frozen chop, there is very little you can do but ride through it the best you can.


Wolf, so if it's the kind of chop that bounces you around, are dynamic skidded turns the proper application of technique?


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## phile00 (Jan 7, 2009)

Veccster said:


> We usually have well groomed slopes here in Western PA but had so much snow this year that I have gotten my taste of riding in chop. I had a stiffer all-mtn board and could manage some carves but mostly just bounce from edge to edge to stay in control.
> 
> Chop has varying degrees to it though. Some of our rougher areas are like randomly scattered moguls (from people checking or stopping). I actually love these areas and ride it like a mogul run. Takes good reaction timing and is a workout on your legs (from absorbing bumps). It also provides a lot of little jumps for quick grabs mid-slope. I like it.


This is pretty much what I'm talking about.



> The only thing you cant do at this point is to keep your legs extra noodley when ur about to go over chop to keep your board from lift off...
> I love going over chop but its damn near impossible to carve since carving requires digging in your front edge to initaite the turn.
> 
> You pretty much got it right...skidded turns is the way to go


Ok cool, just making sure it wasn't totally me. Like I said, I'm so damned light weight, I find it hard to dig an edge in on some conditions. On groomed runs, or PP runs, fresh snowfall, loose granular, etc., I can carve like a champ. But chop forgedaboudit. 

My favorite thing to do, no question, is to snowboard on like 3 feet of fresh powder. It's so incredibly fun. I only had one opportunity to do that last year, on a very narrow diamond trail, and it was so awesome. I executed perfect dynamic turns the whole way down the run. I seriously felt like a skier. It was so fun. I did that this year as well, but only once.


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## baldylox (Dec 27, 2007)

phile00 said:


> I'll check that out, never heard of cross-through. Is that like a dynamic skidded turn?


No. Cross-over / cross-under / cross-through are the three primary techniques for carving. 



> *Cross-over*: Your board stays where it is and your body travels up and over the board in an arc. In this style, you bring your torso up (placing weight on the board as you move up) and then you sink back down to begin the next carve (unweighting the board as you sink). This technique is easier and more natural to learn, but it does not work well on steeps because it takes too long to change edges.
> *Cross-under*: Your torso stays where it is and your lower body swings back and forth underneath you to change edges. In this style, you bring your legs in (unweighting), then you hop to a new edge for the next turn (placing weight on the board as you enter the next carve). You can change edges quicker than in the cross-over style, however you don't hold edge pressure for as long. [Cross-under and cross-over terminology was used for a long time in skier ETS (Examiner Training Squad) certification.]
> *Cross-through*: A good technique for ice and steeps, which is a combination of cross-over and cross-under. It consists of bringing your center of gravity straight across the board and downhill by partially unweighting before an edge change, while your knees roll to the next edge. Instead of rising up and then sinking, like in the cross-over, you stay low the entire time. In fact, your body starts out low and gets even lower when your center of gravity passes over the board. The term cross-through was originally coined by Tom Reynolds, a ski coach at UMaine Farmington. Erik Beckman later applied the term to snowboarding in his 1994 self-published book.


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## phile00 (Jan 7, 2009)

cifex said:


> No. Cross-over / cross-under / cross-through are the three primary techniques for carving.


Nice info. I typically use cross-over or cross-under. I've used cross-through here and there (despite no really knowing the terminology), but I've never really been on a trail with the proper conditions to maintain cross-through for the whole way down. Those explanations were pretty concise, I pictured what was going on immediately. I'm going to practice cross-through on some groomed trails next chance I get!


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## AAA (Feb 2, 2008)

Carving mashed potatoe snow is gruelling. The 2 biggest problems with maintaining fast, top to bottom carves across mounded mashed potatoes is that first, it wears your legs out FAST, and next, that you're stopping distance becomes huge. What that means is that your thighs are on fire by the bottom of the run and that you have to leave such a large safety buffer around other people, that you end up locking up the brakes much more than normal if there's any kind of crowd at all. (Braking of course = killing momentum, killing speed, killing fun.) That kind of snow is also inconsistent and makes you more prone to falls. In places, the snow has no strength, so the crappy snow holding a deep, hard carve may suddenly wash out. Then, if you can't pull high edge angles and high pressured carves, you may not be able to keep your speed in check solely by pulling tight carves on faster runs...meaning, you end up throwing in some skidded turns to scrub speed...and yada, yada, buzzkill. On the flipside, the nose can be prone to digging in and folding in soft snow mounds, which can catapault you into cartwheels. Those are great destroyers of of ligaments, bones, and gear...more buzzkill. So, you have to do your best to pick and choose where you decide to dive into carves in that kind of snow, and where you skid across the bumps, which makes for a gruelling, short lived day. The best option is to just find a run with better conditions and stick with it if you're the type that likes to carve balls to walls, top to bottom. Personally, I'd rather milk every ounce of speed of carving a green run than board bashing through wicked sloppy crap on a blue or black.


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## Milo303 (Apr 6, 2009)

Part of your issue could be the Goliath. I know I couldn't get my Jam to hold an edge on anything that wasn't a groomed groomer. Anything rough threw me right off of my edge and I would have to put my hands down to catch myself. It was the opposite of rad and I sold it


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## Guest (Feb 25, 2010)

Snowolf said:


> You also have to recognize that in some conditions, carving is damn near impossible and is definitely impractical. Pick the technique for the conditions. In frozen chop, there is very little you can do but ride through it the best you can.


this.

i carve when the conditions merit it - first tracks on beautiful cord courtesy of the excellent groomers at my mountain...

alasdair


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## Camor (Jan 28, 2010)

Depending on the actual snow condition and size of chop, you use cross-over, under, or through like previous replies.

What helps me are these:

1. Put on some fast music with a good beat so you can get into a rhythm.
2. Look ahead to where you are going, I say at least 2 turns ahead since the turns will be coming fast.
2b. If you can't really look ahead due to the weather, you need to have a good board feel. I personally like to feel the base of my board hitting the side of the chop/bump/mogle. This let me know that I'm on the right line.
3. Keep breathing... or your leg will burn out so fast.
4. Lean down hill (perpendicular to the slope) to maintain good board control. But this varies somewhat (for me at least) depending on snow condition or stiffness of board. You don't want the nose of the board to dig into a "bump".
5. Skidded turns to control speed.
6. No fear. You going to be super fast using the cross-through technique on a 30 degree + hill, not to mention 40+. :cheeky4:

But for me.... I last about 20 sec and my legs are done HAHAHA. What i get for sitting in an office all day. I maybe will do 2 or 3 of these kind of runs but almost purely for exercise purpose :laugh: But if my rhythm is off that day, forget it. Skidded turn it is.


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## phile00 (Jan 7, 2009)

Camor said:


> Depending on the actual snow condition and size of chop, you use cross-over, under, or through like previous replies.
> 
> What helps me are these:
> 
> ...


I found a run that had like 4 stages: It was about 25/15/35/20 degrees. It was medium choppiness. I had to do dynamic skidded turns on the 25/35 and I was trying cross-through/cross-over on the 15/20 parts.


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## jlm1976 (Feb 26, 2009)

The terms cross over, cross through, and cross under apply to carved or skidded turns(though I personally think the terms are kind of pointless but that's another thread)

Carving in chop is totally possible(assuming we are talking chop and mellow bumps, if they are too rutted it will be a much bigger challenge). Are you going to be able to do big eurocarves? No. Is it the ideal turn for chop? Probably not. But it can be fun and a good challenge. The biggest thing is to keep pressure on the edge of the board while absorbing the terrain. 
Try carving on greens and blues while putting as little pressure on the edge as possible and still carve. This will help give you a feel for what kind of pressure you need to carve the chop. 
The other biggy is to not get to far forward at the start as the nose will lose the ability to absorb the next bump if it has too much weight on it.


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