# Ruddering and other issue



## ksup3erb (Jan 25, 2013)

f00bar said:


> Two issues, first my son as it's more pressing.
> 
> Some of you may remember my initial post with a video had him falling leaf all the way down. Now that I've started riding and I actually prefer toe he's stopped with the falling leaf and is doing toe. Problem is major ruddering toe side. He's really good heel, toe has some major throwing his hip and board around. Is this typically a not enough toe pressure and not using enough shoulder direction to get you going where you want to go? Spring corn probably isn't helping as I think he really has to keep his board on top of it.
> 
> ...


I bet you are both being static in the waist, knees and ankles which is causing this problem. It will improve with practice, but I would recommend a lesson to adjust and prevent bad habits from forming.


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## f00bar (Mar 6, 2014)

ksup3erb said:


> I bet you are both being static in the waist, knees and ankles which is causing this problem. It will improve with practice, but I would recommend a lesson to adjust and prevent bad habits from forming.


Ya, one last trip of the year probably and thats heading up to VT which gets expensive, so lessons are not likely until next season. I'm planning on taking one in the afternoon of the first time out next season after we have our sea legs back.


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## Ocho (Mar 13, 2011)

I can't recall if your son rides goofy or regular but a few seasons ago, someone told me he's noticed goofy riders have a greater tendency to kick out the hind foot/rudder a bit. I ride goofy; whenever I do that it's when I get way sketched about catching a heelside edge in the chop (counterintuitve, I know, but that big, heavy chop can grab you right up blindsided; heelside you/I can see what's coming). Either way, perhaps it's a heelside edge catch he's worried about? 

For you on heelside, I suspect it's your muscle memory/comfort zone having your shoulders open to face down the fall line, being a reformed skier. Thus you may have too much weight on the tail as your body wants to face down the fall line.


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## Lamps (Sep 3, 2011)

Both my kids did this and still do it a bit - they have a good heelside turn but tend to stand up too straight on the way into the toeside turn, which makes them need to torque the board around with their upper body, and rudder with their back leg. 

if this is the case then drills that help them to get lower on the board by bending their knees will help. Also if you can get them to ride with hands clasped in front of them and in back of them, or grab their pant legs around the pockets or a bit lower to practice then it prevents them from using upperbody to swing the board around, and also helps to reduce the ruddering which is driven a bit by upper body movement.


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## f00bar (Mar 6, 2014)

EatRideSleep said:


> I can't recall if your son rides goofy or regular but a few seasons ago, someone told me he's noticed goofy riders have a greater tendency to kick out the hind foot/rudder a bit. I ride goofy; whenever I do that it's when I get way sketched about catching a heelside edge in the chop (counterintuitve, I know, but that big, heavy chop can grab you right up blindsided; heelside you/I can see what's coming). Either way, perhaps it's a heelside edge catch he's worried about?
> 
> For you on heelside, I suspect it's your muscle memory/comfort zone having your shoulders open to face down the fall line, being a reformed skier. Thus you may have too much weight on the tail as your body wants to face down the fall line.


This is actually something that I ponder quite a bit over. He rides regular, but I really think he may prefer goofy. I tried him goofy his second time out, but progress was slow so I think even if he may prefer it he isn't giving it a chance. So hard to say because he did falling leaf so long. But for example on a long glide down a cat trail I'll often see him switch to goofy midway down. But that may because he just feels more familiar heel than toe even on the glides. Heel side he good either way. I can't evaluate it very well, so this is on the laundry list of things for an instructor to take a look at and see what they say and someone he won't play the opposite game with like he does with me. It's an age thing.


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## Ocho (Mar 13, 2011)

f00bar said:


> This is actually something that I ponder quite a bit over. He rides regular, but I really think he may prefer goofy. I tried him goofy his second time out, but progress was slow so I think even if he may prefer it he isn't giving it a chance. So hard to say because he did falling leaf so long. But for example on a long glide down a cat trail I'll often see him switch to goofy midway down. But that may because he just feels more familiar heel than toe even on the glides. Heel side he good either way. I can't evaluate it very well, so this is on the laundry list of things for an instructor to take a look at and see what they say and someone he won't play the opposite game with like he does with me. It's an age thing.


Learning switch early is an excellent idea...perhaps you can convince him to give it a try for the "switch learning" aspect? It's possible he's just more comfortable heelside at this point hence the switch to goofy on cat tracks and like you said the history of falling leaf heelside for so long. 

Ha, Idk if it's an age thing or a parent/child thing  Either way, continued lessons are a great idea.


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## wrathfuldeity (Oct 5, 2007)

f00bar said:


> Ya, one last trip of the year probably and thats heading up to VT which gets expensive, so lessons are not likely until next season. I'm planning on taking one in the afternoon of the first time out next season after we have our sea legs back.


ehhh...don't worry about it. its your first year...go have fun...got to get the big stoke to last through the summer.


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## Slush Puppie (Aug 15, 2011)

It sounds like the fundamental posture and basic technique need to be revisited as the upper body should be completely quiet and turns initiated using the feet only, with evenly flexed legs. There really isn't any need to rudder once you are in a good stance and understand how to steer using the feet to steer (we call it peddling in the BASI system - the american system teaches it slightly differently). Apologies if it's been suggested already but the best thing you could do is book some time with a professional instructor, who should be able to asses and correct the fundamental problems. 

Definitely good advice to 'learn switch' - its healthy to always practice anything you learn regular right away in switch but I suspect its not the solution to immediate problem.


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## stillz (Jan 5, 2010)

For washing out on the heel side, two things are coming to mind. One thing I often see newer riders doing is rushing the turn by pushing the back foot down the hill even with the front foot rather than simply edging. This results in a sideslip rather than a nice round turn shape. If this is you, then just be patient and let the turn come around naturally. Don't rush it.

The other thing is that you may be too far forward. Uncommon, I know, but if you're riding really far forward on your board, your tail will wash out. Try this experiment: Link a few turns while riding just on the nose of your board, then link some turns riding on the tail of your board. Riding on the nose, you may feel like your turns initiate really well, but wash out at the bottom (both edges). While on the tail, you may find that initiating turns is very difficult, even scary, but once you get toward the bottom of your turn, the back seat isn't a terrible place to be. So if this is the problem and you're trying to correct it by moving farther forward, you've got the wrong idea. Try moving aft as you finish out your turns.

As for your son, there are many things that could be happening. Where is he looking during his toe side turns? Are his shoulders countered to face down the hill? This can create some resistance to finishing toe turns, resulting in unwanted speed and a tendency to rush turns with ruddering movements.


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## Outlander (Nov 28, 2011)

Washing out on heelside is very common in the intermediate stage when the rider has mastered making basic linked skidded turns and then begins riding faster and/or steeper terrain. The washout occurs at the bottom of the turn generally because this is the point where all the forces combine trying to break the edge free and it starts at the tail usually.

Ruddering or windshield wipering turns is a classic intermediate rider thing you see everywhere. How it usually starts is the rider in the beginner stage has focused so hard on getting weight up on their front foot that they tend to forget to recenter their stance and even get aft at the right moment. What we see is the rider kind of hops up onto the front foot to release the tail, then kick the tail with the back foot and then settle back into their static riding stance. At faster speeds and on steeper terrain, this actually creates the skidding and eventual washout.

Here is an ideal way to start correcting this washout that is always worse on the heelside due to the way the human body works. Before initiating any turn, get low by flexing the ankles, knees and hips more. Shift your hips and upper body toward the nose to weight the front foot and then use board twist to engage the edge. As the board points down the fall line in the turn, gradually shift you hips and upper body back to your center position and as the turn completes, coming across the fall line, flex the back leg and shift your hips and upper body aft toward the tail.

This forward-aft movement allows you to transfer your weight along the sidecut through the turn to put the most weight on the area that has the most force trying to break the edge loose. Timing is critical and you will have to play around with it and dial in your timing but when you get it right, you will really feel the difference in how the board will shoot out in front of you and solidly complete the turn. Flexing the rea leg also alows you to cushion any chatter that might show up at the end of the turn.

Hope that helps....


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## f00bar (Mar 6, 2014)

I think you guys are probably pretty spot on. Unfortunately yesterday was the last day of the season. It rained hard until 10, then hit the mid 60s so it was pretty sloppy and tough all around. Plus it was our first trip to a mountain over 1000' so by the end of the day we were both pretty much spent. The last run was fugly between having to avoid springs that had popped up in the middle of the slopes, the slush snow and our legs. It was just a fun day with no concentrating on anything in particular.

I did notice a shoulder alignment issue with him on toe side. Definitely not aligned with the board and very forward facing. He had a much harder time dealing with getting the board to float over the slush than I did so I think in general he was forcing things quite a bit more than usual.

So now it's all over until Dec. Either afternoon of first or second time out I'll be booking us lessons.

Just a quick thanks to all who have offered advice. Especially to the gummers who convinced me that I'm not too old to do something I've wanted to for the past 20 years. 6 times out in 3 weeks and I think I've pretty much exceeded my expectations.

Until next year,

Cheers.


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