# Turns on blue runs



## Lamps (Sep 3, 2011)

freetheanimals said:


> As I've noted previously, I started boarding in early December. I live not far from Whistler, BC and am able to get up to the mountain to ride 2-3 times a week now. While I have progressed - I no longer fall when unloading from the lift chair, am able to link turns down green runs, am improving at straight runs, and have even tried small jumps - I was frustrated to see how much more difficult turning on blue runs is.
> 
> I decided to step things up and try a few blue runs, including the Upper Franz run at Whistler. I quickly realized two major problems: 1) the blue runs seemed to be heavily moguled out, making turning really challenging; and 2) the steepness of the runs is both scary and physically hard. I had a couple of bad falls while on toe side that tweaked my ankles. I ended up doing falling leaf down a lot of the Upper Franz run but would rather avoid that since I'm an expert at falling leaf! LOL
> 
> My question is should I stick with green runs for the rest of the season and avoid blue runs altogether or should I keep trying the blues? If I should keep trying the blues, do you all have any tips for turning on them, especially dealing with moguls?


Franz on a mogully day can be a lot of work especially for a beginner. Ideally get the whistler smartphone app and under the conditions tab check the grooming section and seek out runs that were groomed the night before. The website also shows what was groomed. My experience is that the blacks are rarely groomed but mostly they groom the blues within a day or two of new snow, wiping out the moguls. 

Also Franz's is one of the steeper blues at whistler, try runs like cruiser, honeycomb on blackcomb, and so on for slightly easier blues. Also the family zone on whislter side, and runs off the jersey cream chair on blackcomb side. 

But unless you really find the easier blues too challenging keep working on the groomed blues, you'll get better for doing so and the spring conditions are pretty soft so it's a little less painful if you fall so its a good time to try them.


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## Deacon (Mar 2, 2013)

freetheanimals said:


> As I've noted previously, I started boarding in early December. I live not far from Whistler, BC and am able to get up to the mountain to ride 2-3 times a week now. While I have progressed - I no longer fall when unloading from the lift chair, am able to link turns down green runs, am improving at straight runs, and have even tried small jumps - I was frustrated to see how much more difficult turning on blue runs is.
> 
> I decided to step things up and try a few blue runs, including the Upper Franz run at Whistler. I quickly realized two major problems: 1) the blue runs seemed to be heavily moguled out, making turning really challenging; and 2) the steepness of the runs is both scary and physically hard. I had a couple of bad falls while on toe side that tweaked my ankles. I ended up doing falling leaf down a lot of the Upper Franz run but would rather avoid that since I'm an expert at falling leaf! LOL
> 
> My question is should I stick with green runs for the rest of the season and avoid blue runs altogether or should I keep trying the blues? If I should keep trying the blues, do you all have any tips for turning on them, especially dealing with moguls?


I ended up taking a lesson when I got stuck a bit on my progression, what I found was being afraid of the cliff or the tree line on the side of a steeper narrow run result in my leaning back and not being able to turn... Forcing me to skid to a stop or bail. This was especially bad on my heelside to toeside transitions. Throwing my weight forward, lowering my center of gravity, and initiating the turn by torsioning my front foot solved it. But it was mostly just setting that fear aside and getting forward.


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## Hose91 (Feb 10, 2013)

*Push the envelope*

As long as you stay within reasonable range of your overall skill set, I have definitely found that carefully pushing the envelope ALWAYS improves my skill/comfort level when I go back to the previous terrain after getting my ass kicked on something I'm not comfortable with (currently that would be steeper black mogul runs, park features that I cannot ride onto, and to a certain extent, unbridled speed on icy flat runouts/cat tracks as I have scorpioned a couple of times and it hurts!). 

Take the advice for finding the groomed and easier blue runs, but by all means keep trying them. Don't push the envelope at the beginning or the end of the day, or (for me anyway) right after lunch because I feel sorta sluggish that first run while my food settles. 

Take precautions, choose your terrain wisely, board under control, wear protective gear if you have vulnerable parts, etc, but you can't go wrong with a little judicious envelope pushing to encourage your progress! Best of luck!


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## Efilnikufesin (Oct 8, 2011)

Make sure on the blues you are not leaning yourself uphill, can make turning frustrating. Keep yourself centered over the board, and make sure you are initiating the turn with your downhill foot first by lifting the toe or heel first then allowing the uphill foot to follow.


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## Olex (Feb 20, 2013)

Speaking as a recent green to blue transition-er:

Keep going back and forth between greens and blues. I had a lot of problems with blue at first as well. So I would give blue a try, fail, go back to greens for a few days, repeat.

Try finding an easier blue if you can. It eventually suddenly clicked for me and blues were doable. A lesson helps, too, if you can afford it.


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## 24WERD (May 9, 2012)

go with someone better then you and just follow them down. 

That's how I learn.

If I don't keep up then i'm on my own.

I pretty sure that's how we learn.


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## stickz (Feb 6, 2013)

Go try the easiest black run. You'll have a hard time no doubt, but once you make it down you'll be amazed how much easier those blue runs seem now. Maybe very different advice than you've been receiving, but what's the point of everyone telling you the same thing.


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## Hayabusa (Mar 11, 2013)

I just started boarding myself recently, so I'm also still on greens and blues 

If it was me.... I think I would try something harder like a steeper blue. Or if there was like a blue with a steeper/harder section on it would probably be ideal. 
I would try to do single turns (like a C shaped one) first then try to link a few turns and if it's really bad, leaf down (it's like my worst case scenario get off mountain card) but I try not to use it and remind myself I didn't go to the mountain to like do the invisible chair all day  

After I made it down my first blue, greens were so easy. I think trying and getting used to a steeper angle takes the edge off the fear so you won't end up leaning on your back foot when turning. like your body kinda goes, pfft this is nothing I've seen worse. 

That was the problem I had when trying to turn on to the toe edge. I literally grabbed my knees to stop myself from leaning back. And I started to really bend my knees when it's scary, because there's now less distance to fall to the ground 

Also I had some fierce tunes blasting to help me get some courage on my first blue :thumbsup:


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## Lamps (Sep 3, 2011)

stickz said:


> Go try the easiest black run. You'll have a hard time no doubt, but once you make it down you'll be amazed how much easier those blue runs seem now. Maybe very different advice than you've been receiving, but what's the point of everyone telling you the same thing.


This is in my opinion bad advice for Whistler, where the blues are pretty tough compared to most places to begin with and the guy's not sure if he should retreat to greens. I could see this if he was at some smaller hill where the blacks might not be too hard but in general at Whistler they're pretty tough and he should get the hang of blues first.


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## Deacon (Mar 2, 2013)

stickz said:


> Go try the easiest black run. You'll have a hard time no doubt, but once you make it down you'll be amazed how much easier those blue runs seem now. Maybe very different advice than you've been receiving, but what's the point of everyone telling you the same thing.


Yeah, DON'T do this.



Lamps said:


> This is in my opinion bad advice for Whistler, where the blues are pretty tough compared to most places to begin with and the guy's not sure if he should retreat to greens. I could see this if he was at some smaller hill where the blacks might not be too hard but in general at Whistler they're pretty tough and he should get the hang of blues first.


Because of this.


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## wrathfuldeity (Oct 5, 2007)

Lamps said:


> This is in my opinion bad advice for Whistler, where the blues are pretty tough compared to most places to begin with and the guy's not sure if he should retreat to greens. I could see this if he was at some smaller hill where the blacks might not be too hard but in general at Whistler they're pretty tough and he should get the hang of blues first.


I tend to disagree...but the issue is how long is the black run...(not the steepness)....if it is miles and going to take 45 minutes...then agreed. But if it is a short back that takes 10-15 minutes...why the fuck not. Yesterday NW and I were taking Donutz in some triple black tree stuff...that was steep and narrow....he took it slow and worked within his level but it changed his world about doing the gnarls barkley.


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## justin8790 (Jan 31, 2013)

When I started which honestly wasn't too long ago, I had the same issue. Thing that helped the most was to lose fear and commit. I've heard what's here on the east coast is nothing compared to what's out your way but just making it down the run even if it was just sliding down the entire run it helped me realize it isn't that bad. Also since your their so often just try blue runs a few times through out the day so your not just falling the entire time and getting discouraged. Also try and bring a friend that's better then you, snowboarder preferably but even another skiier helps. I had a friend on ski's that was light years ahead of me so trying to keep up with him also helped push me along. Not so much trying to start me off on black runs when I could barley stand lol


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## Kauila (Jan 7, 2011)

OP, I don't know if this applies to you at all, but since you mentioned having problems turning toeside, I had that problem when I first started riding steeper blues after greens and easy blues. Turns out, my shoulder was rotated open when turning from heelside to toeside (I ride regular) AND I was bending at the waist on my toeside. Once I fixed those things, the problem went away. This was pointed out to me in a private intermediate-level lesson I took a while back.

Also, as another poster said, commit. As an exercise, pick a spot ahead of you, and turn when you hit that spot.


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## poutanen (Dec 22, 2011)

I gotta second whoever said a lesson. All of us on here telling you to drop down blacks, commit, lean forward, etc. won't do 1/10th of what a good instructor could do in a couple hours.

My GF has gone from brand new and quite accident prone, to legitimately riding (i.e. not sliding down) rocky mountain double blacks in about 3 full seasons, and I think a big part of that is she took a lesson every 10-15 days on the snow.


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## CassMT (Mar 14, 2013)

+1 for lessons, even informal ones with someone better than you

-1 for dropping in a black at this stage, you could become a statistic...you don't want to become a statistic


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## freetheanimals (Jan 31, 2013)

*Trying a black run at Whistler is a bad idea*



Lamps said:


> This is in my opinion bad advice for Whistler, where the blues are pretty tough compared to most places to begin with and the guy's not sure if he should retreat to greens. I could see this if he was at some smaller hill where the blacks might not be too hard but in general at Whistler they're pretty tough and he should get the hang of blues first.


You're absolutely right. Blues and blacks at Whistler are pretty intense. I found out the hard way today. A skier told me the Upper Fraser blue run is notoriously difficult and advised I take the black Dave Murray run instead. Big mistake! It was soooo steep and moguled that I only managed to get in a handful of turns. The rest of the time I had to do the falling leaf down the slope. Even that was tough because the run was so challenging. Not fun at all. And I'm not sure it did anything to improve my boarding. In fact, it eroded my confidence.

I am going to try to some easier blue runs to push the envelope a bit. But I am nowhere near ready for a black run at Whistler.


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## freetheanimals (Jan 31, 2013)

*I did take a few lessons*



poutanen said:


> I gotta second whoever said a lesson. All of us on here telling you to drop down blacks, commit, lean forward, etc. won't do 1/10th of what a good instructor could do in a couple hours.
> 
> My GF has gone from brand new and quite accident prone, to legitimately riding (i.e. not sliding down) rocky mountain double blacks in about 3 full seasons, and I think a big part of that is she took a lesson every 10-15 days on the snow.


I did take a few lessons when I first started and had a FANTASTIC teacher at Whistler named Kosta. His style of teaching was a great balance between providing support and encouraging me to push the envelope a bit to boost my confidence. I've come a long way since I started in December. I can ride down an entire green run linking turns without falling now. That is a big deal for me because I think I'm probably a bit more cautious than most new boarders given my ripe old age of 51.


Also, I do ride with a friend who is a better boarder than I. That pushes me to keep up. But I may take another lesson soon to see if I'm developing any bad habits.

I came across this youtube video lesson about riding on steep slopes. What impressions do you all have about the advice and techniques in the vid? How To Snowboard: Riding Steeps - YouTube

BTW, thanks everyone for all your help, support, and input. I really appreciate it. Your advice has made me a better boarder.


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## Hose91 (Feb 10, 2013)

Assuming you follow CassMT's advice and don't become a statistic, even the most terrible unfun runs like that teach your body something, especially when you go back to a green. Don't Give Up!!

Given the amount of time you get up at Whistler, I would get on the "lesson" band wagon. Not only is it bound to help your technique, who better to steer you in the right direction in terms of runs that are in your "skill spectrum" than a certified instructor who just spent an hour or two watching you board. Seems like on a mountain of that size, there should be a nice set of groomed progression runs that you could step through while practicing your techniques, getting comfortable with speed, and work on handling varying snow conditions. I dunno. 

Most of my season is on Mid Atlantic mountains, but just came back from a week at Sun Valley. It was pretty big, and there was definitely something to that "color ratings are relative to other runs ON THIS MOUNTAIN" thing, because a blue at Sun Valley could be significantly more challenging that the average blue run found in MD, PA or WV. Not to mention about 3 times as long. We got a tour from a couple of locals the first day, but I still felt like I had to be careful not to end up somewhere that I couldn't get out of in one piece.


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## stickz (Feb 6, 2013)

How steep are these blue runs?


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## Blazin' Raisin (Feb 27, 2013)

LOVE those SnowboardProfessor vids. Between the super velveeta cheese of those and the awesome technical SnowWolf, I learned a lot of the basics. Lessons filled in the rest. There's something to be said about throwing yourself into a run that makes you uncomfortable/scared. I progressed a lot when I tried following a skier buddy of mine down the blues (I had barely figured out greens) and then down blacks (I had barely figured out blues). But this was all well groomed runs. Anytime he went down something with moguls (that asshole!) I backed waaaaaaay off. I like to have fun, not crash and burn.


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## Hose91 (Feb 10, 2013)

The snow professor videos seem pretty decent. I thought they were entertaining and easy to understand. In a related note, my boy basically did pivot turns exclusively up until the middle of this season, when he broke through and got the hang of linked dynamic skidded turns. Subsequently, he now generally kicks my ass on the mountain. Point being that the pivot turn is a nice tool when you're at the upper end of your "steep meter" but I feel like when you are progressing incrementally, you want to still work on the skidded turn as your primary speed control, instead of pivot turns.


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## Olex (Feb 20, 2013)

I disagree that _every_ run teaches one something. In my experience if the steep is too steep, my legs and brain lock down and become incapable of doing anything but side slipping, tensing up all muscles, waste both physical and mental energy.

On top of it all, it is wasting the time I could have been spending on a green. Speaking personally, when I was stuck in a limbo where greens were too easy and yet blue were too hard, I would find the spots on the greens that had steeper slopes and spend a lot of time in those spots practicing my turns.

If that became comfortable, I would add some speed into those turns to mimic the feel of the steep. After 4-5 days of such practice, it clicked for me and blues became doable.


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## Mel M (Feb 2, 2012)

Lamps said:


> This is in my opinion bad advice for Whistler, where the blues are pretty tough compared to most places to begin with and the guy's not sure if he should retreat to greens. I could see this if he was at some smaller hill where the blacks might not be too hard but in general at Whistler they're pretty tough and he should get the hang of blues first.


Not just for Whistler... EVERYWHERE!

When I first started snowboarding two years ago I was taken back by some friends of friends who claimed they were able to "go down" blacks by their second day. It was complete and utter horseshit as I saw one of them heelslip half the run, then try sloppy rudder turns, followed by a nasty edge catch that bruised his tailbone. This was supposedly his fifth time out. Looked like a such a fucking douchebag.

I never touched a black run until the middle of my second year because I was determined to get the fundamentals of static and dynamic skidding/carving before venturing out into steeper terrain. This may have been my 20th or so time out but I was way more concerned about doing it right than obtaining stupid bragging rights about going down some black diamond run.

Needless to say, not only can I torch them down the mountain, but I'm in complete control. They always complain how there's too many fucking people on the mountain, and I always tell them how dodging people's part of the fun. They retort and say it's mostly my board (NS Raptor), and probably to some degree their right, but I don't say anything back and just smile ear to ear. 

I will go as far as saying going down a black run doesn't help you achieve shit if you're not ready for it. If you got dynamic riding down on greens/blues, then yeah, going down a black run will definitely help you be more comfortable in less steep terrain. Otherwise it's pointless and just leads to unnecessary risks toward a bad injury.


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## litebrite (Feb 8, 2008)

If you can, pick up a copy of this guide: Ski and Snowboard Guide to Whistler Blackcomb: Intermediate Edition | Quickdraw Publications 

Very informative narrative of pretty much all the runs in Whistler/Blackcomb. That way you won't end up staring down a minefield of moguls. 

Discovered my favourite blue run (Ridgerunner) from it - it's an medium steep run with rollers and turns.. not at all boring! Thankfully always well groomed. A lot of the runs around that area are usually Blackcomb's runs of the day, so I'd recommend checking those out. They're usually the best conditions. 

And I admit, after a run that kicked your ass making you feel like a total noob again, no shame in bombing down a green to gain some confidence again. :laugh:


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## freetheanimals (Jan 31, 2013)

*I tend to agree*



Mel M said:


> Not just for Whistler... EVERYWHERE!
> 
> When I first started snowboarding two years ago I was taken back by some friends of friends who claimed they were able to "go down" blacks by their second day. It was complete and utter horseshit as I saw one of them heelslip half the run, then try sloppy rudder turns, followed by a nasty edge catch that bruised his tailbone. This was supposedly his fifth time out. Looked like a such a fucking douchebag.
> 
> ...


I tend to agree, Mel M. I really don't feel I learned anything side slipping down that black run today. I just wanted to get off the damn thing. It was a pretty miserable experience. Unfortunately, it was a looong run and super steep. I should never have listened to the skier who said the Dave Murray black run was easier than the Upper Fraser blue run. Both are hard but the black one was waaaay steeper - at times it felt nearly vertical! I did a few turns on it but knew that if I fell I could have hurt myself. In addition, I feel so worked physically and mentally. I think pushing the envelope is fine but that run was out of my league. I had no business being on it.

I'll likely contact the teacher I took lessons from in December for some more instruction. In addition, I'll stick to the greens and try some easier blue runs. But I'm staying far away from the black runs at Whistler. They are dangerous for a beginner like me.


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## freetheanimals (Jan 31, 2013)

*Thanks, Litebrite!*



litebrite said:


> If you can, pick up a copy of this guide: Ski and Snowboard Guide to Whistler Blackcomb: Intermediate Edition | Quickdraw Publications
> 
> Very informative narrative of pretty much all the runs in Whistler/Blackcomb. That way you won't end up staring down a minefield of moguls.
> 
> ...


Thanks, Litebrite! I'll check out the book. And I'm definitely going to try Ridgerunner. Is it on Blackcomb?


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## Lamps (Sep 3, 2011)

litebrite said:


> If you can, pick up a copy of this guide: Ski and Snowboard Guide to Whistler Blackcomb: Intermediate Edition | Quickdraw Publications
> 
> Very informative narrative of pretty much all the runs in Whistler/Blackcomb. That way you won't end up staring down a minefield of moguls.
> 
> ...


+1 on this, it's a great book, really helpful to find your way around whistler as an intermediate.


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## Lamps (Sep 3, 2011)

freetheanimals said:


> Thanks, Litebrite! I'll check out the book. And I'm definitely going to try Ridgerunner. Is it on Blackcomb?


Ridgerunner is on blackcomb, commonly cited as one of the best blues in north america. The one downside is that there's a bit of a long flat green at the bottom to get back to the chair. Start with Zig Zag from the glacier lodge, which is similar but finishes near the chair. Then do Rock and Roll, and Twist and Shout and Ridgerunner in whatever order you want, these start from the top of crystal chair. These are all blues and they are great runs for boarding. 

I just got back Sunday from a week at whistler, dying to go back already.


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## Mel M (Feb 2, 2012)

freetheanimals said:


> I tend to agree, Mel M. I really don't feel I learned anything side slipping down that black run today. I just wanted to get off the damn thing. It was a pretty miserable experience. Unfortunately, it was a looong run and super steep. I should never have listened to the skier who said the Dave Murray black run was easier than the Upper Fraser blue run. Both are hard but the black one was waaaay steeper - at times it felt nearly vertical! I did a few turns on it but knew that if I fell I could have hurt myself. In addition, I feel so worked physically and mentally. I think pushing the envelope is fine but that run was out of my league. I had no business being on it.
> 
> I'll likely contact the teacher I took lessons from in December for some more instruction. In addition, I'll stick to the greens and try some easier blue runs. But I'm staying far away from the black runs at Whistler. They are dangerous for a beginner like me.


I'm definitely not against pushing the envelope, but to me the only real difference between blues and blacks is acceleration. If the blue run is long enough, you can reach breakneck speeds of 60+ mph, particularly in well groomed tracks. So when people mention that speed makes things easier when you snowboard, that's true, but you can achieve those speeds on longer blue runs. Since you go to Whistler, that's gotta have some of the longest runs in the continent. The steepness of blacks definitely make very short radius dynamic turns a lot more fun, since you shoot out of a turn on very steep terrain, but for practicing, it's completely unnecessary and I believe can hinder your improvement just by shaking your confidence.

As mentioned from instructors I had and probably from a few people on this forum, it's beneficial for a beginner to dial in slower, large radius, static turns. The more advanced you get, your movements get more dynamic, your turn radius gets shorter, and your turn initiation/completion becomes much faster.

Honestly, I'm still practicing getting down smoothly down very steep terrain, but I still dial in the techniques down blue runs.


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## behi (Feb 27, 2013)

Hose91 said:


> Assuming you follow CassMT's advice and don't become a statistic, even the most terrible unfun runs like that teach your body something, especially when you go back to a green. Don't Give Up!!


Yeah, shitty technique, if you just go down in survival mode.



Mel M said:


> Not just for Whistler... EVERYWHERE!
> I will go as far as saying going down a black run doesn't help you achieve shit if you're not ready for it. If you got dynamic riding down on greens/blues, then yeah, going down a black run will definitely help you be more comfortable in less steep terrain. Otherwise it's pointless and just leads to unnecessary risks toward a bad injury.


+1

Choppy, steep stuff is MUCH, MUCH, MUCH more difficult than well-groomed steep stuff or choppy, not so steep stuff. Tackle one at a time.

If you can't do short-radius dynamic turns, choppy, steep stuff isn't where you want to be.


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## skunkworks_ (Jan 2, 2013)

freetheanimals, you may find this video helpful:


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## wrathfuldeity (Oct 5, 2007)

^nice vid of spring corn steep...very easy and fun to do.

U r what u ride….
ya’ll r kind of pussin out…
ya can’t always be in control, 
ya not goinna have perfect groomers 
ya aint goinna have perfect snow 
Thus ya ain’t going to have the opportunity to do perfect the perfect technique
AND if you think so…ya’ll r fricking nutz and might as well be blue-run bluebird blue ballz daises…

Ladies, If you want to get your nutz off…u got to get them out of your purse…
Around here black runs are not groomed…can’t be groomed by definition…
Riding blacks is in large part by definition based on survival skillz and technique…
Thus survival…it ain’t pretty, it ain’t technically correct (unless ur a expert pro) but you can improve in your timing, rythym, coordination, flow…but a large part is confidence…knowing it can be done…and you don’t really know until you try it.

The premise is that if you got some basic skills down, then a large part of riding is a mental game. The mental game involves anxiety management, reasonable expectations, imagining, breaking things down into manageable pieces…etc. A lot of riding is just realizing it is doable, getting an introduction, seeing it done, doing it to some measure…even it that measure is merely surviving and making it down the hill. 
Thus a large part of progressing on blues is to attempt blacks ocassionally. That forces you to “over do” (say your toeside turns) then go back to the mellow blue and realize that you have lots of time, the speed ain’t that bad and the mellow slope ain’t that steep. 
It is irresponsible to take a person to the top of a black and abandon them, but an introduction, encouragement, a few pointers and just being there…allows for your bud to begin to imagine it, become more motivated, realize what he/she need to work on. So the “work on stuff” becomes a list of doable things instead of a big fear of ”oh shit…it’s a big black mutha fucker”.


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## Hose91 (Feb 10, 2013)

Olex said:


> I disagree that _every_ run teaches one something. In my experience if the steep is too steep, my legs and brain lock down and become incapable of doing anything but side slipping, tensing up all muscles, waste both physical and mental energy.
> 
> On top of it all, it is wasting the time I could have been spending on a green. Speaking personally, when I was stuck in a limbo where greens were too easy and yet blue were too hard, I would find the spots on the greens that had steeper slopes and spend a lot of time in those spots practicing my turns.
> 
> If that became comfortable, I would add some speed into those turns to mimic the feel of the steep. After 4-5 days of such practice, it clicked for me and blues became doable.


Maybe so, but especially in your first couple of seasons, I think there is something to be taken from most every run, one way or the other. I totally get FTA's desire to just get the hell off the run, but he did make a couple of turns, and he did get to the bottom. That's something, shitty technique or no. It's not til I go back to more comfortable terrain that I realize "hey, this isn't as steep as I thought" or "wow, I feel much more comfortable intializing turns" or what not. 

Call me an optimist:laugh: No harm in taking something positive from a shitty experience, and hopefully learning from it in the process. That said, there's been lots of solid advice in this thread, and I think Free has a solid plan based on lessons and improving his knowledge of his home mountain. I'm 44, ending my 2nd full season after 10 years of hiatus, and and can totally sympathize that getting in someplace you have no business being is terrible. I also know I progress best when I spend a little time doing something slightly uncomfortable then going back and practicing where I'm most comfortable, which is essentially what's been said here.


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## Deacon (Mar 2, 2013)

freetheanimals said:


> As I've noted previously, I started boarding in early December. I live not far from Whistler, BC and am able to get up to the mountain to ride 2-3 times a week now. While I have progressed - *I no longer fall when unloading from the lift chair, am able to link turns down green runs, am improving at straight runs, and have even tried small jumps - I was frustrated to see how much more difficult turning on blue runs is.*
> 
> I decided to step things up and try a few blue runs, including the Upper Franz run at Whistler. I quickly realized two major problems: 1) the blue runs seemed to be heavily moguled out, making turning really challenging; and 2) the steepness of the runs is both scary and physically hard. I had a couple of bad falls while on toe side that tweaked my ankles.* I ended up doing falling leaf down a lot of the Upper Franz *run but would rather avoid that since I'm an expert at falling leaf! LOL
> 
> My question is should I stick with green runs for the rest of the season and avoid blue runs altogether or should I keep trying the blues? If I should keep trying the blues, do you all have any tips for turning on them, especially dealing with moguls?


It's not my place to argue with the guys who have been riding for 10+ years, but I feel like many of you MAY have forgotten what it's like to be a beginner. Yeah, the OP has an amazing situation to learn, but also has an opportunity to injure himselfif he gets in over his head. The fact is, free, you DO need to push yourself, but if you're having trouble just turning on blues it's a terrible idea to throw yourself on a black. 

And many of you guys that are suggesting it will be the first to complain about a "noob side slipping and scraping all the snow off the hill". Unless your looking forward to the kicker he'll make at the bottom? 

*get a lesson, have somebody educated pay attention to what you are failing to do. *

Accept the fact your going to be afraid, and COMMIT. That's when the exhilaration and adrenaline will come! :thumbsup:


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## behi (Feb 27, 2013)

The Deacon said:


> And many of you guys that are suggesting it will be the first to complain about a "noob side slipping and scraping all the snow off the hill". Unless your looking forward to the kicker he'll make at the bottom?


Since getting a board with excellent edge hold, I've come to really like scraped clean hard pack. Moguls that are too big are way too tiring.

So, mini-groomers, keep up the good work. :thumbsup:


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## Lamps (Sep 3, 2011)

behi said:


> Since getting a board with excellent edge hold, I've come to really like scraped clean hard pack. Moguls that are too big are way too tiring.
> 
> So, mini-groomers, keep up the good work. :thumbsup:


name that board please...


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## behi (Feb 27, 2013)

Lamps said:


> name that board please...


I highly doubt, you know the manufacturer; they hand-make 1500 boards a year in the Czech Republic.

166XXW

LTB Snowboards > P TEAM

The board is extremely stiff torsionally, triaxial fiber glass at 30deg with extra carbon layer. It's also quite stiff longitudinally, but has a softer section in the middle, where the rocker is.


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## Lamps (Sep 3, 2011)

behi said:


> I highly doubt, you know the manufacturer; they hand-make 1500 boards a year in the Czech Republic.
> 
> 166XXW
> 
> ...


that's particularly impressive since it's not full camber


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## behi (Feb 27, 2013)

Lamps said:


> that's particularly impressive since it's not full camber


My full camber board (Elan El Grande), is FAR, FAR worse with edge hold, but also a lot less stiff (especially torsionally). Actually, the LTB is torsionally by far the stiffest board I ever laid my hands on; it twists maybe 1/4 the amount of the El Grande with the same amount of force. Torsional stiffness appears to be the major factor in edge hold (ignoring serrated knife edges - aka. Magne-Traction). 

With the El Grande, I really don't like scraped clean, steep, icy hard pack and want a bit of loose cover for speed control.


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## freetheanimals (Jan 31, 2013)

*Lots of good advice here*

I think all of you raise cogent points. I also think there is a balance between pushing the envelope to get out of one's comfort zone and taking unnecessary risks that can result in injury.

I'll be the first to admit I had no business on a black run. But I took the beta of a skier who said the Dave Murray black run at Whistler was easier than the Upper Fraser blue run. She was wrong. Very wrong.

And while it is true I managed to get in a few turns on the Dave Murray, a heavily moguled and incredibly steep run, I don't believe the experience was all that helpful. First, I could have really hurt myself. I took some bad falls but managed to get out with no injuries. But that may have been luck. Second, I side slipped down most of the run. I want to improve my riding, including making tighter turns and feeling more comfortable doing straight runs. Side slipping down most of a run doesn't help me further that goal. Finally, and most importantly, my challenging time on the Dave Murray just wasn't fun. I'm learning to board because I want to have an enjoyable time in a beautiful place. If all I'm worried about is getting down the hill alive than I'm not having fun - and that defeats the purpose of me being out there. Plus, the run sapped a bit of my confidence.

I'll be taking some more lessons soon. Until then, I'll be hitting the greens and a few easier blues over the next few weeks. Thanks all for the continuing support. Maybe by the time I'm 55 I'll be doing tricks in the park!

On a more positive note, I've gone from barely being able to stand on the board, feeling a lot of fear about boarding (I had never even skied before. As a climber I find boarding to be much more scary than climbing), falling every time while getting off the chair, and doing the falling leaf down the bunny slope, taking more than 50 falls - some violent falls - in one day, to now getting off the chair with ease, linking turns without falling on all green runs from Whistler's Roundhouse to Midstation, overcoming my fears about straight runs (I can bomb down a few places that used to cause panic), and getting through moguls without bailing too often. Not bad for my first season so far.


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## freetheanimals (Jan 31, 2013)

skunkworks_ said:


> freetheanimals, you may find this video helpful:


Great vid. Very helpful. When I get a bit better I'll try some of those techniques. Thanks for posting it!


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## freetheanimals (Jan 31, 2013)

The Deacon said:


> It's not my place to argue with the guys who have been riding for 10+ years, but I feel like many of you MAY have forgotten what it's like to be a beginner. Yeah, the OP has an amazing situation to learn, but also has an opportunity to injure himselfif he gets in over his head. The fact is, free, you DO need to push yourself, but if you're having trouble just turning on blues it's a terrible idea to throw yourself on a black.
> 
> And many of you guys that are suggesting it will be the first to complain about a "noob side slipping and scraping all the snow off the hill". Unless your looking forward to the kicker he'll make at the bottom?
> 
> ...


I have taken lessons and when I have some more cash I'll be taking some more. Until then, I'll be putting in a lot more mileage at Whistler. In fact, I'm heading up there again today!


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## Donutz (May 12, 2010)

I'm jumping in a bit late here, but after completing 3 days at Baker, I've found myself in a similar situation. I've become fairly good at C turns on more mellow blues, but over the last couple of days a couple of rat bastards^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H new friends took me down some gnarly blacks on Baker and I discovered some sad truths.

My particular problem is that when the run gets too steep and mogully I start standing tall instead of bending my knees, and I become less willing to lean into the turn. My solution is to back off on the slope difficulty until I can get proper form back. Then I gradually ramp up the difficulty. I haven't worked my way up to the gnarly blacks yet, but in a day's work I managed to get to the point of handling just about anything chair 8 has.

Point being that once you're out of your competence zone, you may be learning how to _cope_ with the slope, but you're not learning how to snowboard.


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## Hose91 (Feb 10, 2013)

Donutz said:


> I'm jumping in a bit late here, but after completing 3 days at Baker, I've found myself in a similar situation. I've become fairly good at C turns on more mellow blues, but over the last couple of days a couple of rat bastards^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H new friends took me down some gnarly blacks on Baker and I discovered some sad truths.
> 
> My particular problem is that when the run gets too steep and mogully I start standing tall instead of bending my knees, and I become less willing to lean into the turn. My solution is to back off on the slope difficulty until I can get proper form back. Then I gradually ramp up the difficulty. I haven't worked my way up to the gnarly blacks yet, but in a day's work I managed to get to the point of handling just about anything chair 8 has.
> 
> Point being that once you're out of your competence zone, you may be learning how to _cope_ with the slope, but you're not learning how to snowboard.


Excellent point, and I think the trick is to find that zone where you're out of your COMFORT zone, but still within the edges of your COMPETENCE zone so that you can both _cope_ and _learn_ at the same time. 

I'd be remiss to not mention that OP has come a TREMENDOUS way in just one season. I took my first lesson with a buddy who was a great surfer and skateboarder, but never been on snow, and I'd been skiing since HS (I grew up near White Pass). He kicked my ass for the first hour, but once I understood the balance thing, my comfort with speed and motion on snow kicked in and I progressed much faster than he. Coming from a climbing background, I think it's impressive that FTA has made such great strides and sounds like he's well set up to continue to do so!! 

On a side note, Donutz, I followed your Baker story as well, glad you wore a helmet! Sounds like a great trip. We're relocating to Kitsap County from Washington DC this summer and I am very much looking forward to next season in PNW as opposed to the less-than-ideal mid-atlantic region!


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## Mel M (Feb 2, 2012)

freetheanimals said:


> On a more positive note, I've gone from barely being able to stand on the board, feeling a lot of fear about boarding (I had never even skied before. As a climber I find boarding to be much more scary than climbing), falling every time while getting off the chair, and doing the falling leaf down the bunny slope, taking more than 50 falls - some violent falls - in one day, to now getting off the chair with ease, linking turns without falling on all green runs from Whistler's Roundhouse to Midstation, overcoming my fears about straight runs (I can bomb down a few places that used to cause panic), and getting through moguls without bailing too often. Not bad for my first season so far.


That's terrific progression your first year! Some can't even links turns smoothly their first year and I'm sure that whistler greens are blues elsewhere.


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## NWBoarder (Jan 10, 2010)

Hose91 said:


> We're relocating to *Kitsap County* from Washington DC this summer


Where at? That's where I call home. Let me know if you ever wanna ride once you're out here. :thumbsup:


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## freetheanimals (Jan 31, 2013)

*Confidence restored! All is well on the slopes!*



Hose91 said:


> Excellent point, and I think the trick is to find that zone where you're out of your COMFORT zone, but still within the edges of your COMPETENCE zone so that you can both _cope_ and _learn_ at the same time.
> 
> I'd be remiss to not mention that OP has come a TREMENDOUS way in just one season. I took my first lesson with a buddy who was a great surfer and skateboarder, but never been on snow, and I'd been skiing since HS (I grew up near White Pass). He kicked my ass for the first hour, but once I understood the balance thing, my comfort with speed and motion on snow kicked in and I progressed much faster than he. Coming from a climbing background, I think it's impressive that FTA has made such great strides and sounds like he's well set up to continue to do so!!
> 
> On a side note, Donutz, I followed your Baker story as well, glad you wore a helmet! Sounds like a great trip. We're relocating to Kitsap County from Washington DC this summer and I am very much looking forward to next season in PNW as opposed to the less-than-ideal mid-atlantic region!


After the utter spanking I had on the Dave Murray black run, I went back to basics on Whistler's greens. And yesterday I felt like a pro on them! LOL My turns were tighter, my straight runs longer and faster, and I was even able to keep up with some of the more experienced boarders on the hill. While I won't be getting on another black run any time soon, I must say the experience on the Dave Murray - as brutal and scary as it was - helped me when I went back to the greens because the steepest sections on the greens no longer felt remotely steep. I have the utmost respect for boarders who can navigate a gnarly, moguled run like the Dave Murray.

I should mention, I got the name of that blue run wrong. It isn't the Upper Fraser. It is the Upper Franz, a notorious blue run at Whistler that some people think is close to a black run. I've been on it three or four times and it is just out of my league at this point. So, I'm going to find those easier blues that someone on this thread mentioned.

Yes, I have made a lot of progression. So, Mel M and Hose91 thanks for the kind words. But my progression has been made possible by: 1) my lovely wife who suggested I take a sabbatical from work to learn snowboarding and renovate our house. When I'm not working on our house I'm up at Whistler 2-3 times a week now. I'll be able to board well into May, maybe even June; 2) this online forum. You all have given me incredible tips that I take with me when I'm boarding. The suggestions you have posted have been a major help!; 3) I had a great teacher up at Whistler when I first started. Kosta is his name so if any of you visit Whistler and want a lesson look him up. You can't miss him - he's over 6 feet tall and has dreds. Very cool guy. He is fantastic. I took three days of lessons with him.


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## Hose91 (Feb 10, 2013)

freetheanimals said:


> After the utter spanking I had on the Dave Murray black run, I went back to basics on Whistler's greens. And yesterday I felt like a pro on them! LOL My turns were tighter, my straight runs longer and faster, and I was even able to keep up with some of the more experienced boarders on the hill. While I won't be getting on another black run any time soon, _I must say the experience on the Dave Murray - as brutal and scary as it was - helped me when I went back to the greens because the steepest sections on the greens no longer felt remotely steep_. I have the utmost respect for boarders who can navigate a gnarly, moguled run like the Dave Murray.


This is fantastic news and is what I was referring to when I said you can get something out of most every run, even the ones that kick your ass. There's no better feeling than owning the mountain and feeling confident on your board, no matter if you're owning the greens, the blues, the double blacks or the gnarliest back country! I'm stoked for you, and a little jealous that our season is coming to an end next week while you've still got at least a month or two on the slopes still ahead of you!! I'm getting one last day on Monday for the first day of my boys Spring Break. We're trekking out to Wisp resort in Western MD (about a 2.5 hour drive from our DC suburb). The recent cold snap here has made for the best local March riding that we've seen in quite a few years. Nothing compared to the multiple feet of powder being seen out west :angry:, but we'll take it!


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## CassMT (Mar 14, 2013)

2-3 times a week is pretty ideal to recoup and still progress...it comes in waves, plateaus, when you get that continual practice, esp in a mountain like whistler...one day soon you'll be killin all that stuff


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## jtg (Dec 11, 2012)

I kind of get the advice to go above your skill level and drop back down. I think if you find a short, easy black, or a very difficult blue, it isn't bad to try this once a day or so...but it might be a little early. You will learn nothing, but the thing is, it changes your perception of what "steep" is. That's why you feel like a pro on the greens after struggling on the blues. That alone won't teach you anything about the technique you need to learn, but it might help you get over what you consider steep. That's why I say to do it only on a very short black, if available.

Also, don't bother doing this if it's hardpack or moguls, it'll just piss you off and hurt a lot. 

But this is only a small part, you need someone who can critique your technique if you're unable to progress on your own. Even experienced friends are not always much good here...I know a guy who has been riding for 10 years and he swears up and down that proper turning is ruddering your rear foot, and the front foot isn't used in turning. Even though he is better than me, this is obviously very wrong.

As I've been progressing, I'll often try a short run or two beyond my skill level just to get a taste of it, and then drill myself on something that I don't find intimidating but am maybe not perfect at. Then I try to identify what problems I am having and come read on the forum and go try again. I've been meaning to take some intermediate/advanced lessons but just haven't got around to it, so this is the next best thing.

Pick a run that is only slightly outside of your skill level and own it until it's boring, then find a harder one. Going by run color isn't always the best way to tell, so you have to explore your mountain a bit. A flat easier black in soft snow is way easier than a refrozen snowment blue mogul field.


The two best things to always keep in mind on blues that can be counter-intuitive at first - stay forward on the board and stay low/bent. Going forward is intimidating at first but way easier if you stay low. If you stand tall and ride in the back seat, you're gonna have a bad time.

Edit: Someone posted this pic in stickz thread about steeps. I always keep it in my head now as a mental picture when I'm trying something more difficult. When you initiate the turn, you should feel like you look like this guy and where he is on the board:


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## Lamps (Sep 3, 2011)

jtg said:


> Edit: Someone posted this pic in stickz thread about steeps. I always keep it in my head now as a mental picture when I'm trying something more difficult. When you initiate the turn, you should feel like you look like this guy and where he is on the board:


Yes and no to this, hard boot carving technique is very different from soft boot style, open body stance in this photo is a bad habit on a non alpine setup.


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## Mel M (Feb 2, 2012)

Lamps said:


> Yes and no to this, hard boot carving technique is very different from soft boot style, open body stance in this photo is a bad habit on a non alpine setup.


Not necessarily. Soft boot setups can be set on forward angles and these riders will look "open" going down the hill. It's just more pronounced with the more extreme angles of an alpine setup.


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## CassMT (Mar 14, 2013)

Lamps said:


> Yes and no to this, hard boot carving technique is very different from soft boot style, open body stance in this photo is a bad habit on a non alpine setup.


ok, at what point did this change? i guess craig kelly had bad form, bad habits


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## CassMT (Mar 14, 2013)

i liked that first paragraph alot snowolf

i seems to me , from what i see everyday too, that efficient and inefficient are subjective judgements of the onlooker, and only the rider can say what feels right to them

im biased, and opinionated, and oldschool, i'll be the first to say it, haha


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## freetheanimals (Jan 31, 2013)

*Most amazing day at Whistler yet!*



Snowolf said:


> For now, stick with green runs and focus on improving your technique. There is just so much that you can do on green runs at this point. One of the real potential problems a rider can get into by jumping to more challenging terrain too soon is it can create really bad, hard to break habits that are the result of being in "survival mode" Many bad habits are formed intuitively out of necessity and they can be a real bitch to break later on when these bad habits become a major obstacle to high performance riding.
> 
> After 9 years of coaching, I can affirm that progression is the key to success. The rider that jumps to challenging terrain sooner than he has the correct technique for stalls in the intermediate phase. Meanwhile, the rider that sticks to the greens and masters techniques, then progresses slowly to blues, then blacks, etc with dialed in effective and efficient technique, passes that intermediate rider up. It really is the tortoise and hare analogy.
> 
> ...


Thanks to all your help, and especially Snowolf's detailed advice, I had the most amazing day boarding at Whistler since starting in December. I must have read Snowolf's comments ten times before heading out this morning and tried to remember all his pointers. They made a huge difference today! I really focused on moving up and down through the turns as he mentioned. The result? I did five long runs today and saw incredible improvement. When I started in December, boarding (or should I say side slipping) from Whistler's roundhouse to Mid-station took me two hours. Today, I bombed down that run in a personal best of 15 minutes. My turns were tight, my speed was up, and my comfort and confidence levels were at an all-time high. I felt super relaxed, too!

Having said that, I still have a lot of work to do on my turns. The shape and speed of my turns are still uneven, and too skidded. In addition, I have felt that bad habit of back foot ruddering creeping in so I have to really focus to avoid that. In addition, I tend to slow down at the end of my turns and my board is often perpendicular to the slope before I initiate the next turn, which results in my turns looking choppy. 

I'm sticking to the green runs for a while so I can improve my technique. Just wanted to say thanks to everyone for all their great insights. Snowolf, if you are ever in Whistler, I'll BUY you a lift ticket for the day. I owe you that much for such fantastic advice. It made a big difference today. I finally feel like I'm snowboarding!

Oh, and I talked to a snowboard instructor while on the gondola today about the problems I have with cat tracks. He gave me some advice that made all the difference. He said on a cat track I should put nearly all the pressure on my front foot and only engage the back foot to slow down. Using that technique, I went down a cat track on the Bear Paw run today and never fell! Usually, I fall several times on that cat track. I really thought I just sucked at cat tracks and just didn't understand what to do on them.


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## t21 (Dec 29, 2010)

just to say "keep at it" on your turns. I used to to what you are doing now but if i feel "ballsy" i try and look for an easy blue and see where i am at. I'd do this about once or twice. goodluck on your progression.


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## Lamps (Sep 3, 2011)

Mel M said:


> Not necessarily. Soft boot setups can be set on forward angles and these riders will look "open" going down the hill. It's just more pronounced with the more extreme angles of an alpine setup.


I'll rephrase this to say that if the guy isn't riding with a forward stance the open body position is poor technique. 

If he is a beginner/intermediate in soft boots I'd further recommend that he learn at something like 15, -6 to start off. 

I learned with an 18, 9 stance and as I moved to a more typical duckish stance. I had to unlearn a bunch of bad counter rotated habits.


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## jlm1976 (Feb 26, 2009)

Lamps said:


> I'll rephrase this to say that if the guy isn't riding with a forward stance the open body position is poor technique.



Not necessarily. Depending on where the rider is in a turn, what type of turn the rider is doing, and what is going to happen in the next turn an “open body position” is preferred. Staying in an “open body position” all the time isn’t really a great idea in a duck stance, but moving into one for a purpose( ie to enhance movements going on with the lower body) is often preferred. 

If we pretend the rider in the picture is a duck stanced softbooter, rotating the hips and shoulders to the inside of the turn in an aggressive carved turn with lots of angulation can improve range of motion in the front leg and give the nose more bite. In a more mellow carve, that same move can have the effect of causing the tail to break out of the carve and begin to skid. 

Every movement we can make on a board has a purpose, there is no “wrong” or “bad” movement or body position, but body movements can be misapplied or used excessively. 

I realize I am being nit picky, but I see it all the time in the instructors I train especially after they gain a season or two of experience. They get in their heads that doing X is “bad” and doing Y is “good”. They begin to think that reference alignments are where we want to ride all the time, not just a reference “neutral” position for movement analysis.


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## CassMT (Mar 14, 2013)

a forward stance will not cause counterrotating either Lamps, just as going duck did not fix it alone, that is a separate bad habit that your instructor, or you, should be flamed for


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