# Vail buys Whistler



## killclimbz (Aug 10, 2007)

I just saw it on my Facebook feed. Damn. 

This is a huge acquisition for Vail. It is either going to solidify them or this could turn into a huge downfall. That ain't chump change and I am pretty sure Vail resorts already has a lot of debt. 

I am also sure they have been eyeballing Whistler for years.


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## Argo (Feb 25, 2010)

I had to make sure it wasnt some kinda April fools day joke.....


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## chomps1211 (Mar 30, 2011)

Guess the only possible up side is we will only need one single season pass to ride the entire planet?? :shrug:


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## ekb18c (Mar 11, 2013)

Woah... This is amazing, they will either be rolling in the dough or burn in the flames.


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## bksdds (Jul 2, 2015)

Higher lift ticket prices I bet.


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## Argo (Feb 25, 2010)

They are already fairly close in prices


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## Deacon (Mar 2, 2013)

I think I'm supposed to feel some kind of way about this, but I can't decide. Honestly Vail buying Afton was a win for us, but Whistler is already world class.


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## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

One thing is for sure, if we have an economic hiccup anytime soon and people tighten the purse strings on vacation dollars, VR might be in real trouble. Not sure they're in a position to ride it out. If VR crashed aand burned it'd be really interesting in CO. Not sure what the actual numbers are, but I'm sure it's a staggering percentage snow tourism dollars that are spent at VR properties.


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## kalev (Dec 17, 2013)




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## poutanen (Dec 22, 2011)

Now if RCR would buy Revelstoke and expand we'd have a fight on our hands... >


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## Motogp990 (Mar 10, 2013)

I'm not a business expert and probably biased by the fear of the unknown, however I can't see how this will benefit any whistler regs or anybody that even wants to come to whistler.

I can assume lift ticket prices will jump significantly. And Vail probably is going to push hard for the renaissance project and or other expansion projects, as you don't buy a business to keep the status quo.

For anybody that doesn't know what Renaissance is, it's a huge proposal for massive expansions to make whistler more of an all year around vacay destination like Disneyland. 80% non ski/board related.


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## Donutz (May 12, 2010)

Motogp990 said:


> I can assume lift ticket prices will jump significantly.


Or not. There's a consortium trying to get approval to build a new resort near Squamish, about 1 hour south of Whistler. Very hard to increase prices when competition is opening on your doorstep.


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## killclimbz (Aug 10, 2007)

The Epic Pass will probably drive up a lot of Tourism spending the first season or two. I am sure a lot of locals will buy that pass.

Day tickets will probably go up. By how much? Hard to say.

You can also bet there is probably going to be a fairly significant bump in the Epic Pass price come the 17-18 season. That thing is probably going to be pushing $1k USD if not more in the near future.


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## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

I wouldn't expect a drastic immediate change in lift ticket prices. Day pass lift tickets are a tiny percentage of VR's business. They don't want to rely on that. Way too variable. Weather conditions have a huge impact on day trip traffic. VR bases their business to rely upon vacationers that book months in advance. That type of revenue is far more predictable and far less impacted by factors beyond their control, most notably weather. The downside for VR is that's also the type of revenue that would be most impacted by a sudden economic downturn. Denverites are still gonna buy their passes and head up to Breck for the weekend, but the New Yorkers will probably be far less likely to dump several thousand into a week long vacation to Vail.


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## Argo (Feb 25, 2010)

I will get the epic just for whistler. I could easily do a few 4 day weekends up there.


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## wrathfuldeity (Oct 5, 2007)

conspiracy me...I'm with linville, and have some big concerns with the economy in general due to debt loads and bubbles.

just yesterday this came across my email...basically cautioning the cuses about the canadian housing market.

Chinese Media Warns Canada's Housing Crash Will Put U.S. To Shame*|*Stephen Punwasi


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## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

It doesn't require any conspiracy theories to come to the conclusion that carrying a ton of debt in an industry that is heavily reliant on discretionary spending leaves you pretty exposed to economic downturns. 

VR has been making a ton of moves in recent years likely to capitalize on historically low interest rates, but it does mean they're racking up huge debt.


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## dave785 (Jan 21, 2016)

Their stock is up 7% today. really glad I bought some of it last week for most of the portfolios I run. I had no idea this was going to happen but the volume was up and I knew they had been on an acquisition binge... I just didn't know it was going to be whistler.

FOR FUCKS SAKE GOD DAMNIT WHY WHISTLER.

I am in the process of putting together a trip with about 16 friends to go to whistler. I just upgraded my Cali4nia pass to the "premium" pass because it gives me 50% off at all mountain collective resorts, and that includes whistler.

If vail comes in and fucking ruins my vacation by making me pay an extra $200 for a week of lift tickets by nullifying my discount... fuck them..

but on the plus side I made some money today, so I got that going for me, which is nice. 

BTW guys I wouldn't be getting your hopes up about Vail going bankrupt any time soon. They might've bought whistler for a cool billion, but it has never been cheaper to borrow money. 

You have to remember that with large corporations, much like housing purchases, it's really the annual debt payment that matters.. not the total amount of debt. So if Vail now has an extra debt payment of (for example) $1MM a month, but their new cashflow from whistler is $1.2MM a month, then they win. especially if they currency hedge the thing, which I'm sure they will. 

Their debt levels are definitely increasing relative to their assets. In 2011 it was a 1:4 ratio, in 2015 it was 1:3 and now it'll be close to 1:2. using 50% leverage isn't really that rare in a cashflow heavy industry like theirs.


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## killclimbz (Aug 10, 2007)

Pretty sure your Mountain Collective passes have to be honored for next season. Any and all changes will be implemented the season after.


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## Argo (Feb 25, 2010)

It would be nice if they allowed the epic there this season as a suprise. They have done that in the past.

Vail does very good at the tourist skier/rider experince thing. Not good at the seasonal or "local" worker thing. They also dont seem too keen on local working class either. I have seen alot of friends get lifetime bans for very little but just to ease the hassle of having them as a neusance they ban them.


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## BurtonAvenger (Aug 14, 2007)

Whistler by and large has been a money pit for every company that has operated it. It's overdue for some much needed repairs as well as upgrades. 

Vail is the largest resort wintersports resort company in the world and as mentioned money is cheap right now. The thing that no one is talking about though is we're sliding slowly into a recession, there's typically a recession after a new president, and the housing market is still doing shiesty shit like it did back in 07/08. 

Vail is also leveraging themselves to the hilt on future income, futures that are unpredictable. One bad winter in the NW and Cali which will impact Utah and Colorado had better have a bumper year to cover that or they're going to be screwed. The other thing is as Linville pointed out Vail makes its money off people that book in advance, now typically most people book their trips off the previous years snowfalls. So a good year somewhere means more trips the next, a bad year, and well the following has a decline. But that's just common resort town knowledge, if a place goes off to a banger start this can be thrown out the window as people will book no matter what. This is what happened in Breck 4ish years ago when they had the record season. 

Proximity to major metropolitan areas is also a key factor. Look at their structure of buying resorts, they aren't buying the best all the time, just the ones closest to the biggest populaces that will travel. I.E. the midwest, Salt Lake, CO, etc. etc. It makes sense from a pre-packaged standpoint. Oh buy a pass that's good at your podunk hill, but you could travel and ride FREE!!!!

Pass prices will increase, that's just part of Vails plan. Their long term goal is to get the season pass up to somewhere around $1,200 that way when the average person that goes about 10 days a year buys it they still make money. They're not banking on people like me that go 150 to 200 days a year, they lose money on people like me. Day ticket prices will jump again I suspect we'll get to the point where we see a $200 lift ticket price at some point in the near future. 

The bigger question is with this acquisition how much real estate did they get. Vail makes its money off amenities, lodging, and shit like that. If they didn't get the base areas then this changes their plan a bit. 

Either way Vail is eventually going to fail due to getting too big for its reach and leveraging itself. In the mean time as I'm on a life time ban from Vail I'll be enjoying Copper and A Basin as well as other mountains while people play the stand in line game.


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## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

The two biggest things that would concern me if I was long on VR are 1) economic uncertainty due to VR's debt load and reliance on discretionary income and 2) growing pains - every entity experiences them and VR has been growing at an incredible rate. There have to be more than a few people in that corporate office and in the field that are stretched thinner than they can possibly keep up with.


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## dave785 (Jan 21, 2016)

linvillegorge said:


> The two biggest things that would concern me if I was long on VR are 1) economic uncertainty due to VR's debt load and reliance on discretionary income and 2) growing pains - every entity experiences them and VR has been growing at an incredible rate. There have to be more than a few people in that corporate office and in the field that are stretched thinner than they can possibly keep up with.


It's a resort/luxury destination catered towards the affluent, and it has relatively low operating costs, requires travel to reach, and makes money from operations, lodging, and local purchases. From a valuation standpoint, it's essentially a casino. The leverage that vail has still isn't on the levels of most casinos.


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## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

Yeah this is shit.


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## Argo (Feb 25, 2010)

Not sure why anyone would oppose this. Whistler is already a Vail style resort. They will get upgrades and the Whis season pass is currently over $1600cad. Epic pass is at $850 now, I dont see it doubling. Likely to be quite a bit less expensive for season pass holders. 

Seems like a bunch of people hating just to hate. The online releases have had a ton of negative feedback but I guess anything vail does is negative to most of these asshats.

Im also betting epic wont be unlimited at whistler but a given numer of days since they are going to remain branded as Whistler is currently.


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## snowklinger (Aug 30, 2011)




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## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

snowklinger said:


>


What he said ^

I guess it's a good opportunity to open a casino.
Or a couple of botox clinics.

There are 2 bad things about Whistler:
1. The crowds
2. The corporate atmosphere

I dont see either improving from "this".

A friend of mine actually got a Big White season pass for this season instead pf a Whistler pass. He'd rather drive the 5hrs to ride a down to earth resort, than 2hrs to ride the corporate giant. I though about it, but in my case it's difficult because of work... but man if the crowds continue as they are I think I'd rather ride 20 quality days/season than 40 crowded mashed pow days. We'll see. I have a pass for next seas so it doesnt bother me yet.


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## Motogp990 (Mar 10, 2013)

Argo said:


> Not sure why anyone would oppose this. Whistler is already a Vail style resort.
> 
> Seems like a bunch of people hating just to hate.


Yeah, whis is definitely a mega style resort. And my hate comes from not wanting them to get anymore mega than it already is.

That renasaince project whis wants to do is a huge shit show that may have broken ground regardless, however with this deal I'm guessing it's all but a formality now.

And from a personal level, I've been looking to move to whistler and I don't want new mega resort projects jacking up housing prices more than they already are.

I hope my fears are just that.


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## f00bar (Mar 6, 2014)

I wonder if they had a real or printed off the internet 25% off Harbor Freight Super Coupon to get the exchange rate discount.

And taking a quick look Whistler Blackcomb stock jumped 45% today is sitting at about 400% for the last 5 years. At some point you have to cash in your chips.


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## mojo maestro (Jan 6, 2009)

snowklinger said:


>


Just in case someone missed it the first time..........


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## Motogp990 (Mar 10, 2013)

According to snowbrains
Top 10 Most Popular US Ski Resorts Ranked by Skier Visits - SnowBrains.com
(This was the most current data I could find but should still be some what accurate)

The most visited resorts in the US
Annual skier visits
Vail: 1.63 million 
Breck: 1.60 million
Mammoth: 1.13 million 
Keystone: 1.04 million

This past season whistler had over 2.2 million skier visits


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## chomps1211 (Mar 30, 2011)

Motogp990 said:


> The most visited resorts in the US
> Annual skier visits
> Vail: 1.63 million
> Breck: 1.60 million
> ...


HOLY FREAKIN' HELL!!! :blink:


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## Argo (Feb 25, 2010)

You can do the math and calculate days open and acreage to see that breck is WAY more crowded on average then vail.... breck is like 3000 acres, vail around 5000 where Whistler is 2 full sized mountains and like 8000 acres so that crowd density actually isnt as bad as the number looks. Im sure its a shitshow on the normal busy days though....

Also I believe Whistler is open 5 or 6 weeks longer as a scheduled season


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## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

Whether or not VR continues that policy of Whistler staying open that long will likely come down to profit margins. VR shuts it down when it's no longer profitable. From a business standpoint it makes perfect sense, but it sucks watching Breck and Vail shutdown the lifts every year when most of the mountain still has great conditions.


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## killclimbz (Aug 10, 2007)

linvillegorge said:


> Whether or not VR continues that policy of Whistler staying open that long will likely come down to profit margins. VR shuts it down when it's no longer profitable. From a business standpoint it makes perfect sense, but it sucks watching Breck and Vail shutdown the lifts every year when most of the mountain still has great conditions.


Not that you're wrong, but every ski area does this. Towards the end of the season just about everywhere, the profit margins are thin to bleeding a little. Hopefully not a lot. All that stuff ain't free.

I would suspect that the Whistler season won't change much. They have a model that has been working for years. Even after Vail took over Keystone, Breck, etc, the season didn't really change at all for those areas.


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## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

Whistler has lost money in a lot of fiscal years though. Not sure if that long season is part of the reason why or not. 

Those losses also make me wonder if VR has bought a polished turd. I haven't looked at the numbers and don't care enough to do it, but you can cook the books and cut down on a bunch of costs that would hurt in the long run but you can get by on in the short term if the goal is to make it look good for a sale. Given VR's experience with acquisitions it'd be pretty shocking if they got duped, but then again, the allure of snatching up one of the crown jewels of North American skiing at a time of historic low interest rates and historically strong exchange rates is pretty damn appealing and could cause one to overlook a couple of red flags.


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## BurtonAvenger (Aug 14, 2007)

The thing to note with Whistler is the length of season as well as I believe they count summer traffic on the glacier as part of their visits. 

By and large Breckenridge actually has more people coming. But that's whatever. 

Whistler is not a viable long term option, too many issues, and well as mentioned it's a polished turd. I'm loving watching the commentary on this as I sit back and wait to see what happens next.


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## wrathfuldeity (Oct 5, 2007)

linvillegorge said:


> *Whistler has lost money in a lot of fiscal years though.* Not sure if that long season is part of the reason why or not.
> 
> the allure of snatching up one of the crown jewels of North American skiing at a time of* historic low interest rates and historically strong exchange rates* is pretty damn appealing and could cause one to overlook a couple of red flags.





BurtonAvenger said:


> The thing to note with Whistler is the length of season as well as I believe *they count summer traffic on the glacier as part of their visits.
> *
> By and large Breckenridge actually has more people coming. But that's whatever.
> 
> Whistler *is not a viable long term option, too many issues, and well as mentioned it's a polished turd. *I'm loving watching the commentary on this as I sit back and wait to see what happens next.



Disclaimer, having never been (but may try to get there this year)...moi armchair dribble...

Whistler has lost money in low snow years...and a few years ago during the olympics they were begging folks to go and the actual folks up there were quite few and slopes were empty...it was a low snow year. Imho the olympics were to be the big marketing event...but the snow didn't happen so it became a bust.

Concur with linville about the interest rates and exchange rates are the koolaid...but still both US and CA economies are fucking toast...even though the US dollar looks good...but that is relative and will be a flash in the pan when looking back in a few years.

As for the BA's season...perhaps VR is banking on the explosion of DH biking in the PNW....in a way skiing and snowboard is in a decline...while DH is insane...the adrenaline junkies that can afford to ski/board are the ones that can also afford DH biking. And DH has a much longer season.

Completely agree with the polished turd in a clown suit...but many mindless redbull fucks snack that shit up.

edit: It would be interesting to know how deep the VR pockets are and their leveraged position in this deal. It seems alot of the world is basing their purchases on the koolaid of low interest with the anticipation that economies will continue to grow as they have in the past. When compaired to smaller snow operations such as my little hill who has tried to be very fiscally conservative with a pay as you go mentality, involving the local economy and without the mallish shizzle....and many visitors feel that the hill is antiquated. But our daily lift tickets are 1/2 the price of whistler and season pass rates are still doable...because the hill is not leveraged to their ass holes and beyond.


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## Motogp990 (Mar 10, 2013)

The Vancouver Sun (local paper) wrote a story today, with a bit more information.

According to the Sun, VR is going to reduce the season pass price.

_"Vail Resorts says it will slash the price of a Whistler season pass starting in 2017 — normally around $2,000 Cdn — to roughly half that, and fold it into Vail’s popular 13-resort Epic Pass, which currently sells for US$809."_

FYI: you can get a season pass for around $1600, if you purchase pre-season. However, if they actually do cut the price to $1k, I'm not going to complain  

Who knows if VR will actually follow through, however the Sun also reported this:

_"When Vail first opened its Epic Pass program in 2008, a season pass at Vail Mountain sold for US$1,500. The company lowered it to $600, and watched as the number of season pass holders went from 40,000 to more than 550,000 today."_

Can anybody verify this?


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## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

Whistler's official statement:

The #1 Resort in North America is planning to join Vail Resorts.

WHISTLER BLACKCOMB PLANNING TO JOIN THE VAIL RESORTS NETWORK

We are taking an exciting new step for our resort: Whistler Blackcomb is planning to become part of the Vail Resorts network. The transaction is expected to close in the Fall of 2016 once all approvals have been obtained. Quite simply, this will provide us more resources to make Whistler Blackcomb better than ever.

Whistler Blackcomb will continue to be run by local leadership and this will not change the day-to-day operations at the resort. We are committed to the Whistler and Sea-to-Sky community, including our loyal Pass and Cardholders. There will be no changes to the Winter 2016-17 Season Pass, Mountain Collective or EDGE Card products. View list of FAQs here >

We are deeply proud of what we have built – and we and our new partners at Vail Resorts are committed to keeping that special, local and very Canadian feeling in everything we do. We are excited about what this means for the resort and our community. We look forward to sharing that enthusiasm with you.

Sincerely,

Dave Brownlie | President & CEO | Whistler Blackcomb


Globe and Mail:

"The operator of the sprawling resort on Whistler Mountain and Blackcomb Mountain said the takeover deal supports its $345-million redevelopment plans to build new facilities and accommodations that are designed to protect against the vagaries of winter weather and climate change. In the winter of 2014-15, the Whistler Blackcomb operation experienced an extremely low snowfall, which limited skier visits and hurt financial results."

CBC:
"We think that working with Vail will accelerate our business plan and we're excited to move forward with it," Brownlie said in an interview.

Whistler expanding

Whistler Blackcomb pulled the curtains back earlier this year on an ambitious, $345-million expansion project, dubbed the Renaissance plan, to build more weather-independent facilities, improve on-mountain infrastructure and expand real estate offerings.

Vail Resorts CEO Rob Katz said he is committed to expanding the all-season resort, which is located about 125 kilometres north of Vancouver."


Basically, it's turning away from a ski resort and more towards a destination.
So as I said before... this is shit.


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## LA Forever (Apr 2, 2013)

I find this to be great news. One pass that will allow you to visit all the Vail resorts? Sign me up!


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## BurtonAvenger (Aug 14, 2007)

Motogp990 said:


> The Vancouver Sun (local paper) wrote a story today, with a bit more information.
> 
> According to the Sun, VR is going to reduce the season pass price.
> 
> ...


That is pretty accurate. You have more people that come on vacation buying Epic passes even if they only got 6 or 7 days. Saves them a bit of money. I remember when they implemented this pass it was the first year I lived in Summit County and it was insane how many people were buying this pass up. 



LA Forever said:


> I find this to be great news. One pass that will allow you to visit all the Vail resorts? Sign me up!


You say that now. Wait till you're on vacation and looking at a 1 to 2 hour lift line. And before you go ballistic, yes that has actually happened on numerous days.


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## shitty shredder (Feb 6, 2016)

Argo said:


> Not sure why anyone would oppose this. Whistler is already a Vail style resort. They will get upgrades and the Whis season pass is currently over $1600cad. Epic pass is at $850 now, I dont see it doubling. Likely to be quite a bit less expensive for season pass holders.
> 
> Seems like a bunch of people hating just to hate. The online releases have had a ton of negative feedback but I guess anything vail does is negative to most of these asshats.
> 
> Im also betting epic wont be unlimited at whistler but a given numer of days since they are going to remain branded as Whistler is currently.


The reason you're not sure why anyone would oppose this is because you're talking out of your ass and seem to think that what benefits you must benefit everyone. You have no clue what the local situation is or why this is not beneficial. So don't be so presumptuous, "asshat".

Also, lol @ the armchair economists who haven't even been to whistler and think this is going to make them go under. This is going to be the best purchase Vail has ever made, and will greatly reduce their exposure to off-season and low snow seasons.


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## Deacon (Mar 2, 2013)

shitty shredder said:


> The reason you're not sure why anyone would oppose this is because you're talking out of your ass and seem to think that what benefits you must benefit everyone. You have no clue what the local situation is or why this is not beneficial. So don't be so presumptuous, "asshat".
> 
> Also, lol @ the armchair economists who haven't even been to whistler and think this is going to make them go under. This is going to be the best purchase Vail has ever made, and will greatly reduce their exposure to off-season and low snow seasons.


Sweet. A troll. Haven't seen one in a while.


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## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

I like how everyone thinks their locale or favorite area is this special place immune from the market forces that impact everything else.


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## kalev (Dec 17, 2013)

F1EA said:


> There are 2 bad things about Whistler:
> 1. The crowds
> 2. The corporate atmosphere
> 
> ...


Yeah - after 3 seasons of riding interior BC resorts, I can't handle Whistler anymore. The place is like Disneyland.

From that perspective, this is actually a good thing. I'd rather they keep building the mega-resorts /development out there, keep shuttling the tourists up from Vancouver by the 1000's, and keep the smaller places off of most people's radar. 

At least Vail didn't try to buy Jumbo :happy:


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## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

Kind of inline with what Shitty shredder said...

This is a money making machine. The deal is FAR from a polished turd. I first thiught it was just a buyout, but its a bit more complivated than that as part of the buyout price included shares at Vail, so it's a bit of a partnership. I guess it's still a buyout, but not a simple one.

From a $ point of view this is great for the corporations at hand. Whis is a gold mine and all the other Vail resorts will definitely benefit from the input provided by the Whis management and marketing guys.

The deal effectively KILLED skiing and snowboarding at Whistler though (in the long term). Make no mistakes. That's why this whole deal is shit. The whole place will turn into a real estate and corporate economy "luxury town". And believe it, this will grab millions from rich chinese caught by the Beijing games fever and worldwide investors, similar to Vancouver's housing bubble. The wont mind dropping lift tix price if it keeps the money machine running and making more $ where they want it.

If it goes cheaper, fine. Whistler will turn into the "local hill" to go because it's cheap; but so crowded it's not worth going on sweet days.

For those sweet days... maybe Mt Baker or interior. I think i already convinced myself since last yr that I wont be doing anymore weekend Whistler trips. I'd rather go interior for a weekend. Cheaper, less crowded, better snow, better vibe.


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## Motogp990 (Mar 10, 2013)

According to whis Management, they estimated that total skier visits in 2015-2016 were comprised of 54% regional guests and 46% destination guests compared to 51% and 49% in 2014-2015.

I don't even know if VR would affect local visits. Except for types of riders that forum whore or die hards, who are going to ride regardless, most probably don't even know or care that VR bought whis and it probably wouldn't factor in their decision process. 

I'm guessing all the extra exposure VR pumps out will drive up the tourists count. Which would be good for VR, since tourists are the ones who spend money.


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## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

linvillegorge said:


> I like how everyone thinks their locale or favorite area is this special place immune from the market forces that impact everything else.


I like how everyone thinks they know about market forces that impact everything else.


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## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

There is nothing about Whistler's past that indicates that it's this magical money maker. Vail will come in with a totally different business concept based on selling season passes at a reduced rate and plan on making up for that with volume and capitalizing on that increased volume by marketing their other products and services within the resort. We'll see if it works out. My concern with that plan is that evidently Whistler is already super crowded. How much more realistic capacity is there before the crowd starts to really negatively impact the appeal? 

Alright, you made me go pull some numbers... 

The reality is that lift revenue drives over half of the revenue (51%) for Whistler currently. Everyone talks about that awful '08/09 season. There were 1.67 million skier visits that season. By' 11/12 visits had rebounded to 2.13 million visits. But, since then? Steady decline. 2.04, 1.95, 1.77. That's a 17% drop in visits over a four year period. This has been offset by a nearly 20% jump in lift ticket prices during that time period, but at what expense? Sure, you're not seeing that hit in your biggest revenue generator, but what about ski school? Food and beverage? Real estate? Retail? 

Currently, Whistler generates 39% of their lift revenue via season passes. VR will want to focus on passes, but their own revenue driven from passes? A shade over 40%. Where's the growth opportunity for that business in Whistler? 

Like I said, VR is going to try to chop pass prices and make up the difference with volume and generate traffic to the mountain and then capitalize on that traffic with their other services. This is gonna suck balls for those who frequent Whistler. If you think it feels like Disney now, just wait. 

From a business perceptive, it's up in the air IMO. It's a HUGE gamble. Nothing about Whistler's history indicates it's this magical revenue driver. From a rider experience standpoint? Yikes. It's a nightmare. 

There's a reason I don't frequent VR resorts. If you're a tourist looking for that whole resort experience, awesome. No one does it better than VR and thats VR's focus. That's where the big money comes from. But, if you're just a guy who loves to ride and doesn't want to deal with suffocating crowds and BS, VR is not for you.


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## wrathfuldeity (Oct 5, 2007)

F1EA said:


> For those sweet days... interior. I think i already convinced myself since last yr that I wont be doing anymore weekend Whistler trips. I'd rather go interior for a weekend. Cheaper, less crowded, better snow, better vibe.


fix'd for ya and me :wink:


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## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

F1EA said:


> I like how everyone thinks they know about market forces that impact everything else.


Not everyone, just those who are willing to look beyond their own little bubble. 

You're not special. Your favorite mountain isn't special. No one, no place, no industry, no business is immune to overall market forces and those market forces exist everywhere. 

Once you come to accept that, you can start looking at things objectively rather than subjectively and start to remove some bias. 

Obviously, VR has decided Whistler is a good investment. Time will tell whether they're correct in that judgement. It won't surprise me either way.


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## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

linvillegorge said:


> There is nothing about Whistler's past that indicates that it's this magical money maker. Vail will come in with a totally different business concept based on selling season passes at a reduced rate and plan on making up for that with volume and capitalizing on that increased volume by marketing their other products and services within the resort. We'll see if it works out. My concern with that plan is that evidently Whistler is already super crowded. How much more realistic capacity is there before the crowd starts to really negatively impact the appeal?
> 
> Alright, you made me go pull some numbers...
> 
> ...


One word: summer.
And real estate. 

But yeah, just like you say... money for them, but it's shit for the people that really like the snowboarding/skiing thing.


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## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

F1EA said:


> One word: summer.
> And real estate.
> 
> But yeah, just like you say... money for them, but it's shit for the people that really like the snowboarding/skiing thing.


According to Whistler's financial statements, summer traffic accounts for 18% of their revenue. 

There are over 250 retail outlets in Whistler. Whistler/Blackcomb only owns 18 of them (17% of revenue). They only own 18 bars and restaurants (13% of revenue). Only 3 lodging facilities that combine for we'll under 9% of their revenue (lodging lumped into "Other Resort Activities" with a ton of other services that total 9%).

This is roughly in line with what VR sees overall - a little more in retail/rental at 22%, but a little less in restaurant at 9%. Combining for 30% at Whistler, 31% for VR. 

Everyone loves pointing to VR's increasing revenue while seemingly ignoring that related expenses are slightly outpacing revenue growth. VR isn't growing their business internally, they're doing it through acquisitions. If VR stops snatching up properties, they going to start to see revenue shrinking based on current trends. 

The more I look into the numbers, the less I like what I see - both at Whistler and overall at VR.

One thing is for sure though, the accountants at VR are a helluva lot better at digging through and interpreting the numbers than I am. They damn well better be. VR is fuuuuuuuucked if they aren't! LOL!


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## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

linvillegorge said:


> Not everyone, just those who are willing to look beyond their own little bubble.
> 
> You're not special. Your favorite mountain isn't special. No one, no place, no industry, no business is immune to overall market forces and those market forces exist everywhere.
> 
> ...


hehehe

Yeah, sort of like Disney buying off Star Wars 

It happens in every niche/market thing. But that whole Vail vibe thing is kinda what WB has been migrating to for the past few yrs. It's super noticeable, and super annoying hahaa


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## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

linvillegorge said:


> According to Whistler's financial statements, summer traffic accounts for 18% of their revenue.
> 
> There are over 250 retail outlets in Whistler. Whistler/Blackcomb only owns 18 of them (17% of revenue). They only own 18 bars and restaurants (13% of revenue). Only 3 lodging facilities that combine for we'll under 9% of their revenue (lodging lumped into "Other Resort Activities" with a ton of other services that total 9%).
> 
> ...


Arrrrrghh so many numbers.

Summer is CURRENTLY 18%... but that's the game. That's where the room for growth is. New hiking trails, upgraded mtn bike stuff, whatever new "thing" Red Bull comes up with... It seems everyone knows the "snow" industry is dying with global warming; so the $ is shifting to summer.

Also VR paid like half the price in shares. That sucks for Whistler hahah they sold an inflated bubble which was paid by inflated bubble currency/shares heh seems VR/WB both know what they are getting into...... bastards.


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## dave785 (Jan 21, 2016)

Linville what do you do for a living


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## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

dave785 said:


> Linville what do you do for a living


Sales, sales analysis, forecasting with a background in marketing. 

Basically, if it involves sales I do it.

Currently working on forecasts, hence my procrastination. I have a love/hate relationship with forecasting. Love the investigation process, gate the number crunching.


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## chomps1211 (Mar 30, 2011)

F1EA said:


> Summer is CURRENTLY 18%... but that's the game. That's where the room for growth is. *New hiking trails, upgraded mtn bike stuff, whatever new "thing" Red Bull comes up with... *It seems everyone knows the "snow" industry is dying with global warming; so the $ is shifting to summer.







Summer is Drone Hunting season!! :grin:


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## dave785 (Jan 21, 2016)

linvillegorge said:


> Sales, sales analysis, forecasting with a background in marketing.
> 
> Basically, if it involves sales I do it.
> 
> Currently working on forecasts, hence my procrastination. I have a love/hate relationship with forecasting. Love the investigation process, gate the number crunching.


Forecasting what? You don't write like a financial analyst but not many people know how to pull up a company's SEC filings. 

Are you sales as in you sell to people, or sales as in you do sales forecasts and marketing for companies that sell stuff to people?


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## Deacon (Mar 2, 2013)

dave785 said:


> Forecasting what? You don't write like a financial analyst but not many people know how to pull up a company's SEC filings.
> 
> Are you sales as in you sell to people, or sales as in you do sales forecasts and marketing for companies that sell stuff to people?


Oh, he sell dope. 



Stop it, I'm kidding.
:hairy:


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## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

dave785 said:


> Forecasting what? You don't write like a financial analyst but not many people know how to pull up a company's SEC filings.
> 
> Are you sales as in you sell to people, or sales as in you do sales forecasts and marketing for companies that sell stuff to people?


Sales forecasting. I help large national retailers figure out how much of a particular product they need based on past sales figures, trends, marketing initiatives, etc. At this time, I work almost exclusively in B2B sales. 

I am absolutely not a financial analyst, but I was forced to sit through a couple of horrific classes while pursuing my MBA. I don't wish that shit on anyone, but then again, anyone with a brain wired for sales would be driven mad by financial analysis. 

But, enough about me. If you have a differing opinion, voice it. I'm all ears. There's no right or wrong answers when it comes to trying to predict the future. It's all just speculation.


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## mojo maestro (Jan 6, 2009)

linvillegorge said:


> You're not special.


Maybe not some of these other clowns..........but I am indeed special........my Mommy told me so..........


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## Deacon (Mar 2, 2013)

mojo maestro said:


> Maybe not some of these other clowns..........but I am indeed special........my Mommy told me so..........


Funny. She said the same thing to me.


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## chomps1211 (Mar 30, 2011)

Deacon said:


> Funny. She said the same thing to me.


She told _you_ Mojo was special? :question:


We talkin' "short bus" special,.. Or Dr. Sheldon Cooper special?  :laugh:


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## dave785 (Jan 21, 2016)

linvillegorge said:


> Sales forecasting. I help large national retailers figure out how much of a particular product they need based on past sales figures, trends, marketing initiatives, etc. At this time, I work almost exclusively in B2B sales.
> 
> I am absolutely not a financial analyst, but I was forced to sit through a couple of horrific classes while pursuing my MBA. I don't wish that shit on anyone, but then again, anyone with a brain wired for sales would be driven mad by financial analysis.
> 
> But, enough about me. If you have a differing opinion, voice it. I'm all ears. There's no right or wrong answers when it comes to trying to predict the future. It's all just speculation.


I don't really have a differing opinion I was just curious about your background since you seem well educated in the subject. 

sales forecasting would be more relevant for the valuation than a true financial analysis anyway since a merger based on "synergies" like this would need those sales forecasts as the key ingredient. 

I get most of my opinions from people smarter than me. :nerd:


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## mojo maestro (Jan 6, 2009)

Deacon said:


> Funny. She said the same thing to me.


Talking to you.......I think she meant "small bus"....special...........:swordfight:


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## Deacon (Mar 2, 2013)

mojo maestro said:


> Talking to you.......I think she meant "small bus"....special...........:swordfight:


Well, yeah, but I try not to judge my passengers.:embarrased1:


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## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

dave785 said:


> I don't really have a differing opinion I was just curious about your background since you seem well educated in the subject.
> 
> sales forecasting would be more relevant for the valuation than a true financial analysis anyway since a merger based on "synergies" like this would need those sales forecasts as the key ingredient.
> 
> I get most of my opinions from people smarter than me. :nerd:


The best I can figure, it's gonna be VR as usual in Whistler. Slash pass prices to get volume traffic and then do your best to maximize the opportunities that traffic provides. If there's something VR could do better, it's probably maximizing on that traffic. I honestly had no idea they were that dependent on lift revenue. That's why they've gone the Wal-Mart route. Make season passes cheap enough to have broad appeal and raise day pass prices to further incentivize season pass purchases in order to reduce their exposure to the unpredictability of day pass sales. A bird in hand is better than two in the bush and all that. 

I definitely listen to a lot of sources on issues and everyone seems to love VR right now. Then again, Theranos was supposed to be the next big thing in biomed too, right up until they were exposed as a $9B house of cards.


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## poutanen (Dec 22, 2011)

Man there sure are a lot of strong opinions about this one way or another!

RCR used to sell season passes for Nakiska for approximately $850. A few years ago they bumped it down to $200. There was pandemonium. For a place that gets busy when 3000 people are on the hill, they sold 40,000+ passes. People were talking about the end of the world... 

The first few good weekends of that season were really busy, then things settled back to how they've always been, it's just cheaper to ride there now.

I realize W/B is a very different animal from Nakiska in almost every aspect, but I can't see how something like a purchase & expansion is likely to have a drastic effect on regular riders.

The weekend warrior doesn't care if he stands in line, in fact the line is where he can best try to look cool with his $300 goggs. The hardcore rider likely doesn't go to W/B on the weekends now, so how will this affect them?


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## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

It's not just a season pass price slash. By adding WB to the Epic thingy, they're effectively adding..... X^n+1 season pass holders. Now that's a lotta people.

And that's not even the lame part; the lame thing is that in pretty much all media communication the bottom line has been that this deal was made to focus on expansion and diversification. So...... again, the focus is to shift away from snow stuff. So, from a business stand point, I guess it's a good deal. But not for snow stuff.


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## hikeswithdogs (Sep 23, 2011)

As long as Vail stays out of the fuck out of the Cottonwoods(Brighton, Solitude and Snowbird) in Utah I could give a shit less........


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## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

hikeswithdogs said:


> As long as Vail stays out of the fuck out of the Cottonwoods(Brighton, Solitude and Snowbird) in Utah I could give a shit less........


You're kidding yourself if you think they probably aren't looking hard into it. With the easy access from SLC it's gotta be mighty appealing to VR.


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## jae (Nov 27, 2015)

hikeswithdogs said:


> As long as Vail stays out of the fuck out of the Cottonwoods(Brighton, Solitude and Snowbird) in Utah I could give a shit less........


isn't that a good thing with your house/inn/back country tour thing? how's that going btw?


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## hikeswithdogs (Sep 23, 2011)

linvillegorge said:


> You're kidding yourself if you think they probably aren't looking hard into it. With the easy access from SLC it's gotta be mighty appealing to VR.


Boyne(huge corporation that owns BigSky MT) already owns Brighton, Deer Valley(insanely rich) already owns Solitude, Alta will never sell or change anything for anyone(privately owned)

That leaves Snowbird which I guess would be a possibility but pretty unlikely since they actually own their property(free and clear) they sit on and bank pretty amazing profits without help from anyone besides Alta.

Vail already has their hands full up in Park City with The Canyons and PCMR where everyone already hates them for the hostile take over of PCMR and trying to copyright\trademark the "Park city" name.



jae said:


> isn't that a good thing with your house/inn/back country tour thing? how's that going btw?


Thanks for asking, we just finished all the engineering and paid the fee for the state environmental review on Monday.

Now we wait for all the testing and analysis........our entire project could be sunk permanently by failing a single hydrology test!!

Frankly a Vail buy out of Brighton\Solitude would be good for our potential future business but I care more about all the employees we know who work at these resorts and keeping crowds down on powder days.


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## j029337 (Jan 15, 2014)

BurtonAvenger said:


> You say that now. Wait till you're on vacation and looking at a 1 to 2 hour lift line. And before you go ballistic, yes that has actually happened on numerous days.





linvillegorge said:


> There's a reason I don't frequent VR resorts. If you're a tourist looking for that whole resort experience, awesome. No one does it better than VR and thats VR's focus. That's where the big money comes from. But, if you're just a guy who loves to ride and doesn't want to deal with suffocating crowds and BS, VR is not for you.


Good to know. When my friends and I plan one of our yearly "long" (week) trips, Whistler has always been one of the top 5 places that comes up. After reading this, I'm sure Whistler and many VR places will be knocked off our list. We hate the crowds, the tourists, the insane waits for the lifts, and just the overall delay of the whole process. But unfortunately from what I've gathered from this thread, it looks like these big corporations and the trend are going into high volume. =/

/edit: Oh, and any recommendations on some quality smaller resorts?


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## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

Nobody likes to talk about their smaller, quieter mountains. We like to keep them that way.


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## hikeswithdogs (Sep 23, 2011)

linvillegorge said:


> Nobody likes to talk about their smaller, quieter mountains. We like to keep them that way.


#TRUTH especially when they get really get quality and quantities of blower pow.


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## Motogp990 (Mar 10, 2013)

Ok, I've had my period of crying and complaining and pretending I knew anything about how VR is actually going to impact whis.

Now I'm, back to counting the days off until the pre-season gear sales start and opening day 

As long as we get snow I'm good. Whatever else happens, happens.

:snowboard2:


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## snowklinger (Aug 30, 2011)

I'll buy the kool aid when they purchase loveland and make a super resort out of the whole pass connecting a basin and luv.


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## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

Motogp990 said:


> Ok, I've had my period of crying and complaining and pretending I knew anything about how VR is actually going to impact whis.
> 
> Now I'm, back to counting the days off until the pre-season gear sales start and opening day
> 
> ...


Oh there will be snow for a while still.
It'll just be..... like McDonald's.

One good thing though; that Garibaldi project sure sounds 1,000x more appealing now. And this sell out announcement just gave it a kick start. I guess i'm ok with saving the extra 1hr of driving


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## f00bar (Mar 6, 2014)

Just saw this press release on their new logo


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## Snow Hound (Jul 21, 2012)

f00bar said:


> Just saw this press release on their new logo


Ha ha nice. Yesterday's episode was insane

Sent from my ONE E1001 using Tapatalk


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## shitty shredder (Feb 6, 2016)

linvillegorge said:


> Sales forecasting. I help large national retailers figure out how much of a particular product they need based on past sales figures, trends, marketing initiatives, etc. At this time, I work almost exclusively in B2B sales.
> 
> I am absolutely not a financial analyst, but I was forced to sit through a couple of horrific classes while pursuing my MBA. I don't wish that shit on anyone, but then again, anyone with a brain wired for sales would be driven mad by financial analysis.
> 
> But, enough about me. If you have a differing opinion, voice it. I'm all ears. There's no right or wrong answers when it comes to trying to predict the future. It's all just speculation.


I think what you're missing, which isn't captured in their 10-Ks, is what has happened to Whistler over the last several years. I bet it would surprise most people that whistler used to be dead in the summer, and now actually gets 60% of its tourism traffic in the summer. WB the resort has only recently been serious about capturing revenue from that, and they don't turn on a dime.

Mountain Biking is a huge part of it (look at any Top X Destinations For Mountain Biking article and you'll see Whistler or Moab trading places as the supposed "mecca") but the North Shore region has experienced a lot of growth in general. 

Vail's biggest risk is exposure to lack of snow. As a public company, they are too big to have unhedged risks like that. After the recent shit seasons, their stock was downgraded and they were under a lot of pressure to work on that problem. Whistler is now going all-in on year round revenue streams (and it will take a few years to land) so they are pretty much a perfect match. It's an obvious strategic buy, not simply something to sit on and let the cash roll in. The stock didn't jump after this announcement for no reason.

Whatever works at Whistler is going to be replicated at all of their megaresorts, and having the in-house resources and expertise for what is otherwise relatively uncharted territory for ski resorts means less experimenting and therefore less risk to developing those products. If they had to figure this all out from scratch, it would probably take them much longer.


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## Argo (Feb 25, 2010)

Do you just get high, come on SBF and blow smoke out your ass? 

60% of their tourism in summer? Lol

As for mountain biking, its not new to VR. Northstar and keystone are both known for their bike parks/trails in their regions also. Vail is great at capturing and growing their summer dollars, No way it is ever going to be 60% of any ski resort income though. Summer traffic has skyrocketed in the past 5 years to the breck and vail areas due to VR pushing summer events, activities and advertising. If you think its something new, it isnt.


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## shitty shredder (Feb 6, 2016)

Argo said:


> Do you just get high, come on SBF and blow smoke out your ass?
> 
> 60% of their tourism in summer? Lol


When someone shares a surprising fact with me that might cause me to be skeptical, I usually look into it more before calling them out, especially if I have no first hand knowledge. I wouldn't want to make an ass of myself after all. Unless you live here of course, in which case it's not surprising, it's fucking obvious.

Check it out:

Whistler British Columbia | Trade and Invest BC


> Whistler attracts over 2.5 million visitors per year from all around the world, with Summer now attracting 60% of those guests. Consumer spending in Whistler is nearly $1.3bn per year, ie over $3.5 million per day, providing a significant opportunity for businesses to succeed, whilst enjoying the amazing community lifestyle on offer.


Whistler at 50: Summer is now prime time for visitors


> Whistler at 50: Summer is now prime time for visitors
> 
> “Prior to the development of the Village, and the idea of a world-class mountain ski resort, it really was a ‘weekender’ kind of place. My family had a home here since 1971 and, I can tell you, between ’71 and ’80 you didn’t come to Whistler in the summer.
> 
> “We’ve really grown from a local to a regional to a national to an international destination in the last 25 years. And this past summer was our strongest summer on record. They might come up to watch a festival, a concert, or go on the Peak to Peak Gondola. But those who come in winter stay longer.”


https://www.whistler.ca/business/economic-development-whistler


> Key Facts About Whistler Community
> Year round, Whistler attracts over 2.7 million visitors—both destination and regional—with approximately 40% of visitors in winter and 60% in summer, creating four-season cash flow potential.


Tell me summit county bro, what else would you like to teach the locals? Do you also have strongly held opinions about who has the best burger in town?


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## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

Number of visitors is not equal to number of dollars. The majority of VR's revenue (and WB's) comes from lift operations and they're not getting near as much of that during the summer. Downhill mountain biking is not and never will be as popular as skiing and snowboarding.


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## shitty shredder (Feb 6, 2016)

Check it out, straight from Bob Katz's mouth. Maybe you've heard of that guy. I hear he knows a thing or two about VR:

Vail to buy Canadian ski resort operator Whistler Blackcomb | Reuters


> "In summer, Whistler is absolutely a leader in North America and we feel that adding that to Vail Resorts certainly helps our summer revenue and profitability," Vail Chief Executive Rob Katz told Reuters.
> 
> Brownlie said the deal would help Whistler's growth plans, including a project that is aimed at insulating the company's year-round resort in British Columbia from daily changes in weather.


https://sgbonline.com/inside-vails-strategy-to-acquire-whistler-blackcomb/


> “Whistler Blackcomb is by far the industry leader in creating a true year-round resort, with over 500,000 summer visits and consistent positive EBITDA in all four quarters,” Katz noted. “We also believe there are additional opportunities for further growth in summer at Whistler Blackcomb. Robust summer business will allow us to continue to diversify our revenue base across our fiscal year.”


Yes, VR has summer operations. No, mountain biking wasn't just invented last week. I think you missed the point. This is on another level from your typical resort's summer DH mountain biking operations. And there are many things driving Whistler's summer traffic, with WB carrying a lot of momentum that VR is trying to get.

Example:

Whistler Blackcomb Announces Renaissance Long-Term Strategic Plans

Also, you do understand that Whistler is a town, right? And that Whistler Blackcomb the resort is a distinct entity from the town?



linvillegorge said:


> Number of visitors is not equal to number of dollars. The majority of VR's revenue (and WB's) comes from lift operations and they're not getting near as much of that during the summer. Downhill mountain biking is not and never will be as popular as skiing and snowboarding.


No kidding? I'd hope that is obvious.


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## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

Didn't Argo already explain to you how generating summer revenue was nothing new to VR? They're just not nearly as efficient at it as they are generating winter revenue because lift revenues are much lower. 

If you had understood that more visitors doesn't necessarily equal more dollars, then why bring up visitor numbers? I wouldn't be surprised if Summit County visitorship looked similar. 

Yes, VR wants get better at generating summer revenue. No, it's not new and no, they're not very good at it currently. When your biggest revenue driver by far is lift revenue and lift revenue is much lower in the summer, you're going to struggle to capitalize on summer traffic. This isn't hard to understand. VR understands it and they're trying to get better at it.


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## shitty shredder (Feb 6, 2016)

linvillegorge said:


> Didn't Argo already explain to you how generating summer revenue was nothing new to VR? They're just not nearly as efficient at it as they are generating winter revenue because lift revenues are much lower.
> 
> If you had understood that more visitors doesn't necessarily equal more dollars, then why bring up visitor numbers? I wouldn't be surprised if Summit County visitorship looked similar.
> 
> Yes, VR wants get better at generating summer revenue. No, it's not new and no, they're not very good at it currently. When your biggest revenue driver by far is lift revenue and lift revenue is much lower in the summer, you're going to struggle to capitalize on summer traffic. This isn't hard to understand. VR understands it and they're trying to get better at it.


I dunno, try reading my post? Not sure why you and Argo keep arguing about things nobody said and continue missing the point.

Don't worry about it, I'm sure you and Argo know way more about this stuff than VR's BOD. I'd be buying Put options if I were you!

Also, I don't know what definition of "new" you're using, but yes, resorts generating serious summer revenue is indeed a relatively "new" phenomenon, and a major growth area. It wasn't even legal for them to offer these things on USFS land until 2011. There's a difference between the investments that places like VR and WB are making in the last few years, and a few people riding their bike down a ski hill in the summer or taking a scenic gondola ride.


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## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

Sorry you took my posting personally and became emotional. 

I get it, you love Whistler. Awesome. 

When we say summer revenue isn't new to VR, we mean it in that it's not going to be this brand new novel concept in Whistler. Breck is a little over an hour away from a metro area with over a million people. Vail about half an hour further. VR's corporate offices are in that metro area. Do you really think VR hasn't been strategically working on trying to drive more summer revenue for awhile? 

I realize everyone thinks their favorite stomping ground is special, but when it comes to business, it's not.


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## wrathfuldeity (Oct 5, 2007)

There might be more visitors and them spending more $ for concerts, food, lodging and trinkets...but DH is dam spendy for cost of entry. A transition phase might be the rental, lessons business for DH...but still I'd be surprised that the casual tourist is going to whistler for the DH activities....certainly for DH enthusiasts its for the lift assisted...and 8-10 runs at max is going to toast most mortals...in reality its more like 4 runs and its beer time. Other than that I don't see that whistler has much more to offer than some day hiking and gondy tours and some fries/sushi...which I don't think are going to be big revenue cows.


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## Argo (Feb 25, 2010)

60% of tourism traffic and 60% of tourism money are 2 different things. Also, For all grand purposes of this forum we are speaking about WB not the city of whistler. We call it whistler and are referring to the mountains you call WB. Just as if when I would say Vail versus town of Vail. WB has not been capitalizing on the people there in summer or they would be making alot more money off of it. VR is very good at making money off the flow of traffic in Vail and Breck.

The stream of people in Whistler(the city) during summer isnt there to blow cash and it has never been what I would call super busy at the WBresort area. Alot of places empty, hotels not even open (which is common for offseason in resort areas) and mostly people from other close bycities for a day trip or weekend trip. Easy to find a cheap room. 

VR is great at capturing or creating summer events at their mountains. They wont sit on mountain biking, they will grab or build whatever they can to get people on their lifts and spending money on VR products. Expect them to buy up real estate so they can capture whatever they can. 

Also, I am not a summit county dweller. Never was.... I did live in Eagle County, in town of Vail at the base of the mountain for some time. I'm in oregon now and have been to whistler only twice in summer, on holiday weekends. Your a whistlebrah and we get it. Thats cool


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## BurtonAvenger (Aug 14, 2007)

Anyone that believes Vail won't change the dynamic of the town is lying to themselves. 

There's a reason Vail Resorts went after WB, Brecks hit build out and the town is distancing themselves from them as we're now in a giant housing crisis that they've helped cause. Keystone is at build out, where are they going to go? Up into Montezuma? Vail (town of) build out. Park City/Canyons burned bridges and build out. Midwest? Not going to invest into turning those resorts mega as they wanted the travel segment from those major metropolitan areas. 

They wanted Vancouver, they got it. 

Argue all you want til you're blue in the face, but prepare yourself for a change in the dynamic, longer lines, and over all higher costs.


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## f00bar (Mar 6, 2014)

Honestly, I think this thread is way over analyzing. Cheap money and the cheaper Canadian dollar simply makes it a wise investment. Assuming valuations were accurate there doesn't have to be a huge diabolical scheme for it to make a ton of sense. They put more time analyzing the dollar and Canadian economy than how many mountain bikers will come.


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## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

I'm with Shitty and Angry.


So is 39.7% more accurate than 47.3% ? Does that take into account paradigmal deviation? I think you missed that variable. But we really need to get to the bottom of this.

The deal's about summer activities and real estate. 

There's a very recent new 15% tax on "foreign ownership" in Van which will make it more appealing to park you cash elsewhere.

So yeah.... Whistler is ruined as a snow destination.


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## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

As Argo alluded to earlier, it's as if people can't understand that Vail Resorts didn' acquire the entire town of Whistler. They acquired the holdings of Whistler Blackcomb. They acquired relatively minimal real estate interests in this deal. Now, they very well may have additional real estate plans in Whistler, I'd say that's an almost certainty, but they didn't get them in this deal. 

This isn't even beginning to discuss the proposed and approved $3.5B planned resort in right down the road in Garibaldi. It's a very real possibility that VR won't have the Vancouver/coastal BC mega resort market all to themselves in coming years.


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## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

linvillegorge said:


> As Argo alluded to earlier, it's as if people can't understand that Vail Resorts didn' acquire the entire town of Whistler. They acquired the holdings of Whistler Blackcomb. They acquired relatively minimal real estate interests in this deal. Now, they very well may have additional real estate plans in Whistler, I'd say that's an almost certainty, but they didn't get them in this deal.
> 
> This isn't even beginning to discuss the proposed and approved $3.5B planned resort in right down the road in Garibaldi. It's a very real possibility that VR won't have the Vancouver/coastal BC mega resort market all to themselves in coming years.


Yeah you're focusing on he current numbers. That means very little. Nobody invest $1.4B for the "current" market share. The "future expansion" all the head honchos refer to are real estate developments under WB holdings purse. Yeah, there's be $ flowing everywhere.... but they're ok with what their future share looks like (with the added icentive of simply acquiring more outside the current plan).


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## f00bar (Mar 6, 2014)

If you factor in the cheaper source of Chicken Fingers that Vail has its plainly obvious why they bought it.


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## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

f00bar said:


> If you factor in the cheaper source of Chicken Fingers that Vail has its plainly obvious why they bought it.


Yeah fatty patties too.

Did you know there's not a single McDonald's restaurant in the whole of W or WB?

That's about to change i bet.


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## f00bar (Mar 6, 2014)

F1EA said:


> Yeah fatty patties too.
> 
> Did you know there's not a single McDonald's restaurant in the whole of W or WB?
> 
> That's about to change i bet.


This is the part of this thread i don't understand. Why do you say that? I'm going to guess at the moment they are kept out by the Whistler local government. Why would that change? What interest does Vail have in bringing in McDonalds? So people can fill up on $1 menu breakfast and not purchase waffles at the resort for $7?

I get the hyperbole, just not sure why people think things will change that much other than ownership of the mountain.


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## Argo (Feb 25, 2010)

Lol, what does McDonalds have to do with Vail? I dont ever remember seeing a McDonald's in Breck, there is one on the very far side of Vail (town of), that along with one subway and one chipotle are about if for fast food franchises. 

They will spread the blondie bars though, and be thankful they did because they are great.


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## wrathfuldeity (Oct 5, 2007)

hooter's eh

http://www.torontosun.com/photos/2010/06/16/14413896.html


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## Argo (Feb 25, 2010)

wrathfuldeity said:


> hooter's eh


Im down. I love their wings, the traditional ones.. ..


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## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

Ah wow. No need to get all aprehensive about it.
We get it; y'all love Mcdonalds. Awesome.

Ok ok... chicken fingers yes; fatty patties no.
:thumbsup:


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## Argo (Feb 25, 2010)

I hate mcdonalds, in and out too(west coast thing)..... my wife loves mcdonalds..... ugh. I dont stop for fast food unless im on a long ass road trip, even then I will try for a real restaurant, I'd rather cook my own burger and home made fries.


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## BFBF (Jan 15, 2012)

F1EA said:


> Yeah fatty patties too.
> 
> Did you know there's not a single McDonald's restaurant in the whole of W or WB?
> 
> That's about to change i bet.


????????

I'm just guessing you've never actually been to vail?

They won't cheapen whistler in any way. 

No chance you're going to see anything like mcdonalds coming in.
Vail actually had a Subway at Lionshead a few years ago and that is now a new parking structure.... 
If anything it's going to become MORE expensive and "high end" as my friends in CO refer to Vail as "La la land" or "snow disney"..


Educated guess: cheaper passes, longer lift lines, etc 
But on the flip side I imagine they'll upgrade lifts, walkways, runs, snowmaking.. --- any infrastructure that's not up to par. :smile:


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## Donutz (May 12, 2010)

F1EA said:


> Yeah fatty patties too.
> 
> Did you know there's not a single McDonald's restaurant in the whole of W or WB?
> 
> That's about to change i bet.


There's one 50 yards from the IGA.

Or did you mean up on the mountain?


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## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

Argo said:


> I hate mcdonalds, in and out too(west coast thing)..... my wife loves mcdonalds..... ugh. I dont stop for fast food unless im on a long ass road trip, even then I will try for a real restaurant, I'd rather cook my own burger and home made fries.


lol
We're the opposite. Wife Can't stand McD. I dont mind it. I obviously prefer a good grilled burger and probably only eat McD like 4x a yr. But I dont mind the occasional McGriddle 



BFBF said:


> ????????
> 
> I'm just guessing you've never actually been to vail?
> 
> ...


No, I don't mean IN the resort. I meant the whole town and everything. 
Apparently there is one near the supermaket; never seen it though. Mever even heard about it.

All the extra traffic and expensive stuff will kind of force all this... either be fancy restaurants, or cheap corporate chains. Whis is already pretty high end. Most of the cheap-style indy stuff has been out-competed or in the process of... it's nothing really "new" or that "Vail will bring". This new deal simply cemented the position. Basically, WB now have the extra $ to follow-through their "expansion" plans but this comes at the expense of the snow operations.

Also, the infrastructure/service and all that is top notch. Seriously, very few things need upgrading. Except the one thing that's desperately needed.... FEWER PEOPLE!!!!  
The lift lines are already pretty long; almost unbearably long. Snow gets killed in a few hrs. New terrain is the only way to deal with it if they want to keep the traffic along with the quality of the experience.

Shit. Snow Disney........ WB is already pretty corporate, but not at that level.... yep, it's going to suck ass.


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## kalev (Dec 17, 2013)

Peak 2 Peak is a major draw for non-snow people. Its basically like an amusement park ride.

Apparently Revelstoke's new 'mountain coaster' has been rammed all summer with up to 2 hour waits during peak times. They've even had to suspend ticket sales due to over-capacity demand. 

Not to mention how operating costs in the summer must be so much lower than the winter.


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## shitty shredder (Feb 6, 2016)

linvillegorge said:


> Do you really think VR hasn't been strategically working on trying to drive more summer revenue for awhile?
> 
> I realize everyone thinks their favorite stomping ground is special, but when it comes to business, it's not.


Now you're starting to get it. Of course I think VR are strategically trying to drive summer revenue. That's a major reason why they bought WB! I must have said that at least 3 times now, including my original post.

Dunno what you mean by special, but it's the leader in a segment VR are already in, and in another that VR are going after. This is just the boring numbers, I'm certainly not cheerleading the place. I _don't like_ what's been happening, and I guarantee no non-tourist is proud of that fact or wants to see it pushed harder in that direction.



Argo said:


> 60% of tourism traffic and 60% of tourism money are 2 different things. Also, For all grand purposes of this forum we are speaking about WB not the city of whistler. We call it whistler and are referring to the mountains you call WB. Just as if when I would say Vail versus town of Vail. WB has not been capitalizing on the people there in summer or they would be making alot more money off of it. VR is very good at making money off the flow of traffic in Vail and Breck.


No, we are speaking about both, depending on which words we use. The distinction should be obvious. Whistler is a town, the focal point of which is the Whistler Blackcomb ski area. When one says that Whistler gets 60% of their tourist traffic in the summer, it should be obvious that this is a different statement than saying Whistler/Blackcomb makes 60% of their money in the summer. Since you're an expert I took for granted that you understood the nomenclature like anyone in the area does, my bad.

The relevance of the summer statistic is that these people are eating/shopping/vacationing right at the base of the mountain. This is what we refer to as "opportunity". As in, the enterprise that is WB does not need to do a single thing to attract a market, that is a solved problem. What's left to do is offer more products to the giant audience already there. That's going to take some work, but this is an infinitely better position to be in than having to risk building something and not knowing if people will even come out.




Argo said:


> it has never been what I would call super busy at the WBresort area. Alot of places empty, hotels not even open (which is common for offseason in resort areas) and mostly people from other close bycities for a day trip or weekend trip. Easy to find a cheap room.


You guys are adorable. Yeah, cheap rooms are everywhere in Whistler during the summer. LOL.

Okay, let's play a game. Let's get a room for next weekend. We'll search one of those deals sites to make sure we get the lowest price. And we'll sort this by cheapest to most expensive. 










Shit, out of 162 hotels in town, there are 5 remaining, all pictured here. And boy do we have all kinds of great cheap options!

Yeah, $361 a night is a steal for Crystal Lodge, and that's chump change (never mind the fact that this place regularly costs $99 in January). Oh, and since I stayed there for that price this year in January, I know about their extra $25/night for parking that they sneak in. So we are looking at $386 a night for a basic room right smack in the middle of the base area, which is guaranteed no sleep due to the noise. Let's go and book it!










Fuck me, forgot about taxes. So we are now up to $830 plus $50 for parking, for a two night stay totaling $880. In the middle of fucking August. Shit, this is going to be more than an Epic Pass. Maybe we can find something in a town nearby.

Okay, so let's try the nearest town, Pemberton. Which is actually past Whistler by about 30 mins.

Nope, 0 hotels available there.

Let's try the nearest town between Vancouver and Whistler, which is gonna be an hour drive with the traffic. Not a great option but we can make it work. Squamish has cheap hotels, there must be something there right?










ONE ROOM. In the shittiest hotel in town, with a 1.7 rating. You actually have to work hard to get rated that badly, especially from these polite Canadians. Let's check out some pics that the guests uploaded to see what kind of deal we scored here.










This is gonna be sweet! I'm really wondering why I doubted you here.

EDIT: ROOM JUST SOLD. Even that piece of shit hotel is sold out. If you want to go to Whistler next weekend, you're sleeping in a tent. And good luck finding a spot to pitch it.



Argo said:


> VR is great at capturing or creating summer events at their mountains. They wont sit on mountain biking, they will grab or build whatever they can to get people on their lifts and spending money on VR products. Expect them to buy up real estate so they can capture whatever they can.


Haha, you really have no clue do you. Whistler Blackcomb is not "sitting on mountain biking". Not even close. As huge as mountain biking is in the area, and as big as the Whistler Bike Park is, that is only one of many things they have in the works (which VR will now be continuing, and is probably a significant factor in what attracted them to the deal).

http://unofficialnetworks.com/2016/04/heres-how-whistler-plans-to-spend-345-million-a


> No longer can ski areas sit idle throughout the non-winter months like they did in the 80’s and 90’s. Now, the four-season resort reigns supreme and nobody knows that better than Whistler Blackcomb.
> 
> While Whistler has long been on the cutting edge of this trend with their renowned bike park, golf, and other summer opportunities, a new press release has announced that the biggest resort in North America is moving forward with a $345 million dollar master plan to improve operations year around.
> 
> ...


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## Argo (Feb 25, 2010)

So $200 US. Lol. Expensive and cheap is relative to the person paying.... is $2-300/night expensive? 

Its ok whistlebrah dont worry, WB will still be there, VR will own it and make it better for tourist. 

I'm not really surewtf your even arguing about anymore. You like it, you dont? Just whining regardless of what happens?


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## shitty shredder (Feb 6, 2016)

Argo said:


> So $200 US. Lol. Expensive and cheap is relative to the person paying.... is $2-300/night expensive?
> 
> Its ok whistlebrah dont worry, WB will still be there, VR will own it and make it better for tourist.
> 
> I'm not really surewtf your even arguing about anymore. You like it, you dont? Just whining regardless of what happens?


Hurr durr, good one! $880 CAD = $680 USD (xe.com). So $340 USD a night, and there is very little remaining even that those prices (and don't forget Canadians still get paid the same CAD, so it really is like $880 USD to them).

You said it was pretty dead, and easy to find cheap rooms. Now, "oh well it's all relative". Right. Just open your mouth and change feet, we'll wait.

VR will make Whistler and WB better for nobody other than people who never used to go there. There is zero upside to existing patrons. Which is kind of the point. They want new money. They also want to sell more Epic Passes to feeder markets. WB is not a feeder market, it's on the receiving end of that deal. It will be a net importer of traffic.

VR will not spend a dime that WB wasn't already going to spend for at least 10 years. This isn't some shitty midwest resort with broke owners overdue for upgrades and no development plan.


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## Argo (Feb 25, 2010)

Like wb pass holders aren't going to eat up a cheaper pass? Your just a whining bitch about the whole thing. You dont think w and wb want more traffic? Maybe pissing/moaning locals dont but business owners do and they want people to spend money. 

I have been a whistler tourist and had zero problems finding cheap ($3-350usd rooms) I actually got the rooms free with hotels.com since I use them regularly. I hate to tell you this but they like to cater to families in that income bracket. 

Since you seem to like finding random bullshit, how many of the resorts are closed in summer vs winter making it "expensive" through supply/demand?


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## hikeswithdogs (Sep 23, 2011)

Jesus the entire thing sounds like a giant epic(no pun intended) shit show, hope people continue to ignore my playgrounds.


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## dave785 (Jan 21, 2016)

shitty sledder is making a lot of good points, and although he's now become a bit hostile in defending his position I'm not sure why everyone is ganging up on him. 

It's an acquisition. It follows acquisition finance 101: The resort will be worth more under the new management than under the old. 

The original whistler-blackcomb company is going to sell the resort for MORE than it was worth under their management. Otherwise they wouldn't sell it.

Vail is going to buy it for LESS than it would be worth under their own management, otherwise they wouldn't buy it. 

Therefore, according to Vail's analysts, the resort will be worth more under their management than under the previous manager's. The buy/sell price is usually in between the two numbers. And that's including the higher cost of the debt/interest required to purchase the thing.

So where is Vail going to make the extra money that the original whistler/blackcomb wasn't making?

I don't know where. But it's very naïve to assume that the resort won't bring in additional cashflow. 

I hope it is during the summer, but I'm not naïve enough to assume that. Whistler's DH bike park is way too aggressive for most people. I'm honestly more worried about them ruining the downhill bike park (or at least taking out all the tough trails) than ruining the snow resort.


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## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

dave785 said:


> shitty sledder is making a lot of good points, and although he's now become a bit hostile in defending his position I'm not sure why everyone is ganging up on him.
> 
> It's an acquisition. It follows acquisition finance 101: The resort will be worth more under the new management than under the old.
> 
> ...


The critical error shitty slender is making is that he thinks visitors = automatic money. He argues that that isn't what he's saying, the he turns right around and starts arguing once again about how many visitors Whistler has. 

I completely understand your argument from an investor standpoint, but investors are wrong constantly. 

Currently, VR is pretty inefficient at converting summer traffic to dollars and unless they significantly change the structure of their business, I'm not seeing g a way to greatly boost that element of their business. Summer lift revenue is never going to come close to winter lift revenue and lift revenue accounts for over half of their overall revenue stream.


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## Argo (Feb 25, 2010)

linvillegorge said:


> The critical error shitty slender is making is that he thinks visitors = automatic money. He argues that that isn't what he's saying, the he turns right around and starts arguing once again about how many visitors Whistler has.
> 
> I completely understand your argument from an investor standpoint, but investors are wrong constantly.
> 
> Currently, VR is pretty inefficient at converting summer traffic to dollars and unless they significantly change the structure of their business, I'm not seeing g a way to greatly boost that element of their business. Summer lift revenue is never going to come close to winter lift revenue and lift revenue accounts for over half of their overall revenue stream.



The past few years they have gotten better. Go up to vail and see the summer lift lines. They get pretty impressive on Weekends and holidays. They added big ziplines across the backside, alpine coasters, tubing hill, a few on the front, ropes courses, concerts and numerous events that force people to buy day passes. The day passes for summer are a fraction of what the winter pass is though 


I'm just getting SS riled up. He seems way to passionate about something that is really not an event to get so jacked on. But seriosuly, to VR it doesnt matter if the city of whistler has 2 million people there this week currently because they arent doing anything on the resort. That is the difference of comparing Whistler to WB. Who gives a shit about town of whistler when we are primarily talking about WB. Given we arent "locals" we call it whistler, no differentiation between town and resort because we are not talking about the town. If 2 million show up in town and 1000 hit the mountain its the same as if 2000 go to town and 1000 hit the mountain.


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## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

Exactly. I frequent Breck quite a bit during the summer and VR doesn't see a dime from it. In the last seven years or so, VR has seen about $30 from me. I did buy my sistwr a sweatshiet for her birthday from one of those shirt off my back stores or whatever they're called and I think VR owns those. In that time, I've probably been to Breck at least 50 times. Vail maybe a dozen or so.


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## f00bar (Mar 6, 2014)

hikeswithdogs said:


> Jesus the entire thing sounds like a giant epic(no pun intended) shit show, hope people continue to ignore my playgrounds.


Just saw in the business news that Vail bought all Backcountry.


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## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

f00bar said:


> Just saw in the business news that Vail bought all Backcountry.


Gonna be EPIC AS FUCK


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## dave785 (Jan 21, 2016)

linvillegorge said:


> Gonna be EPIC AS FUCK


They're going to build a McDonalds at the bottom of every backcountry run.


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## f00bar (Mar 6, 2014)

dave785 said:


> They're going to build a McDonalds at the bottom of every backcountry run.


I heard its where they are going to send all their ski classes full of kids who need to be out of the way while mommy is at spa for some much needed "me" time.


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## wrathfuldeity (Oct 5, 2007)

Ok this whole discussion has made the presumption that VR is doing a leveraged debt to obtain WB. But let’s make the opposite presumption that VR investors have the opposite problem: 1st the investors have too much stocks and cash. 2nd that they know the current debt economy is scheduled to collapse (based on my conspiracy mentality). Thus the problem is for VR investors is that they have a lot of exposure in fiat currency and the ballooned stock market and thus need to get into hard assets before it all blows. So currently, the dollar to loonie is great…so why wouldn’t VR invest in WB as a hard asset and reduce their exposure to the funny money and bloated stock market. It seductive move, capturing a crown jewel at a bargain price while also reducing presumptive risk. It seems that the risk is then moved from a certain collapse to betting on the idea that folks that have financial means after the collapse will still want to have an affluent insular Disney land for skiing and partying…and that is apparently VR’s core competency. 
Just my speculative 2 cents.


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## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

Which makes more sense? 

A) VR thinks that WB is a good investment and jumped on the opportunity to buy it at a time when money is cheap (low interest rates) and the exchange rate is strong. 

or... 

B) Whatever that above post was. 

Apply Occam's Razor.


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## f00bar (Mar 6, 2014)

From what I gathered it's half stock half cash, presumably debt based. I wouldn't think they'd have that much cash on hand or would want to dip into it but I really don't know.


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## Deacon (Mar 2, 2013)

shitty shredder said:


> This isn't some shitty midwest resort with broke owners overdue for upgrades and no development plan.



Hey, what the fuck man?

:surprise:


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## Motogp990 (Mar 10, 2013)

The metric I'm going to use, to determine VR's impact, is what I'm calling the washroom effect.

I have a fav/secret-ish washroom I use at whis, that's by far the quietest and least used public washroom in all of whis.

It's my goto spot to take a dump and it's always clean and available regardless of the season. 

I hate public washrooms and the majority of the washrooms there get killed like fresh tracks on a pow day.

If my washroom gets destroyed because of extra traffic, like all the other ones, my life will be over then :crying:


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## wrathfuldeity (Oct 5, 2007)

f00bar said:


> From what I gathered it's half stock half cash, presumably debt based. I wouldn't think they'd have that much cash on hand or would want to dip into it but I really don't know.


half stock and half cash...the half cash would be a boat load...so they got cash (which if conspiracy theory moi, plays out will be worthless in a relative short time and the half stock will actually reduce their risk exposure if the market crashes...cause that VR stock was cheap for the VR corp and they got rid of it to the sellor...thus dumped stock that if the market crashes...it less hurt for VR


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## f00bar (Mar 6, 2014)

I dunno if acquisitions and taking on debt as a preparation for a doomsday scenario ever makes sense. VR is already an expensive stock at over 40x earnings. They do pay a decent dividend though which surprised me. Debt is never worthless unless you file for bankruptcy. In which case the shareholders who VR is supposed to be working in the best interest of get zilch raped before the bill collectors. I think the price was just right for what they see as a nice easy does it future.

But what do I know, I sold my AMD stock when it broke even after being underwater for over 2 years and now its up 50% over that in 3 months. I suck at stocks.


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## wrathfuldeity (Oct 5, 2007)

linvillegorge said:


> Which makes more sense?
> 
> B) Whatever that above post was.
> 
> Apply Occam's Razor.


The idea is that some corps have a ton of cash, they have not been doing infra-structure, RD, or personnel investment, i.e., they are running very lean and thus have built up cash reserves. And if they need cash, they can barrow it at a very low rate. So my thinking is perhaps VR has the problem of too much cash that is sitting around and not doing much. So if a crash and/or economic reset happens, you don't want to be caught holding a bunch of worthless cash (hyper-inflation/de-valuation of the petro-dollar/fiat currency). So the alternative economy pundits note the smart thing is to invest it in to some hard asset that will keep its value and/or might even make some future cash flow. 

The alternative economists are anticipating a crash/collapse/correction and most are saying to get out of stocks, bonds and convert cash into hard assets....that is why, in part there has been a run on physical silver, gold, miner's (stock in mining) and also with beans, bullets and bandaids.

Stuff I've reading is anticipating a drop in the stock market within a few months to 2 years of 60% and with the chinese yuan becoming a international trade currency that will most likely be gold backed...it looks like the us petro dollar will devalue even though it is currently the strongest currency right now. But one of the problems...is that there is too much usd in the world and thus the hyper-inflation.


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## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

VR has huge debt, not huge cash reserves. 

People have been predicting the end of times since the beginning of times. You can always find the "sky is falling" people. 

If the market crashed, VR is fucked.


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## wrathfuldeity (Oct 5, 2007)

linvillegorge said:


> VR has huge debt, not huge cash reserves.
> 
> People have been predicting the end of times since the beginning of times. You can always find the "sky is falling" people.
> 
> If the market crashed, VR is fucked.


ok, nevermind...as said speculative 2 cents


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## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

Nobody's ganging up on Shitty.

Just two fellas making "arguments", one is discarded because yee hawh; the other is going off on numbers. Then making assumptions based on HIS point of view and experience. Not too far off, but he's missing a few things.

I've been to WB a bunch of times over the summer; and a lot of what i've spent goes directly to WB; some goes indirectly. Then, WB is far more adept at capturing $ from summer visitors it seems?

Both Vail and WB benefit from offering winter pass holders an alternative on bad snow yrs. This was important for the negotiations.

Vail is not bringing much in the way of corporate monsterdom. WB is already a corporate monster. There's very little local resort feeling left at WB. It's about to get worse; but the new ownership structure won't change that too much. Hell, even Cypress is a corporate bitch. Ask TT.

The transaction came very soon after provincial government approved:
1. The new resort. On a similar development strategy to what Vail/WB are planning to pursue. WB needed some help as the new project/investors seem to have a lot of $ and will definitely offer competition. WB has been opposing this resort.... they didnt get their way; they sold. Fuck em. Vail probably wanted WB a long time ago. A lot of conditions added up a the same time (including WB actually WANTING to sell).

2. New 15% foreign investment tax in Vancouver. This will move some of the laundering $ away from the city and into.... you guessed it. They want to cash in on real estate development. Soon. VR's $ will Definitely go heavily towards that. Fuck em too.

What Vail will do is crowd the mountain even more in an attempt to money-grab. At no point have I read the plans are to improve the snow quality experience. Fuck em.

I would gladly pay more for a better quality experience than the shit-show WB will become. And in fact, I'll probably end up paying LESS for that experience.


----------



## SGboarder (Jun 24, 2012)

wrathfuldeity said:


> The idea is that some corps have a ton of cash, they have not been doing infra-structure, RD, or personnel investment, i.e., they are running very lean and thus have built up cash reserves. And if they need cash, they can barrow it at a very low rate. So my thinking is perhaps VR has the problem of too much cash that is sitting around and not doing much. So if a crash and/or economic reset happens, you don't want to be caught holding a bunch of worthless cash (hyper-inflation/de-valuation of the petro-dollar/fiat currency). So the alternative economy pundits note the smart thing is to invest it in to some hard asset that will keep its value and/or might even make some future cash flow.
> 
> The alternative economists are anticipating a crash/collapse/correction and most are saying to get out of stocks, bonds and convert cash into hard assets....that is why, in part there has been a run on physical silver, gold, miner's (stock in mining) and also with beans, bullets and bandaids.
> 
> Stuff I've reading is anticipating a drop in the stock market within a few months to 2 years of 60% and with the chinese yuan becoming a international trade currency that will most likely be gold backed...it looks like the us petro dollar will devalue even though it is currently the strongest currency right now. But one of the problems...is that there is too much usd in the world and thus the hyper-inflation.


Please never ever advise anybody on economics and financial markets :surprise:


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## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

linvillegorge said:


> VR has huge debt, not huge cash reserves.
> 
> People have been predicting the end of times since the beginning of times. You can always find the "sky is falling" people.
> 
> If the market crashed, VR is fucked.


Yup.

WB too. Maybe not as deep in debt....... but seems WB did not have enough liquidity to compete the new resort. OR were not willing to put up the fight.


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## f00bar (Mar 6, 2014)

F1EA said:


> Yup.
> 
> WB too. Maybe not as deep in debt....... but seems WB did not have enough liquidity to compete the new resort. OR were not willing to put up the fight.


Nothing wrong with debt if you can make the payments. The world runs on debt, and that's a good thing. I could have paid cash for my car, but why when its 0.9% financing.

It seems the general opinion is that being bought was a sign of weakness, Whistler must have been in trouble. Not always the case, strong companies get bought all the time. It can be great for the stock holders. In this case they get a nice instant cash payout and some VR stock that is currently on fire.

The purpose of Whistler was to make money for its stock holders. And they are doing just that.


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## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

I just went back and re-read wrathful's post. Holy shit. My head is spinning. 

"Alternative economists" must be a nice way of saying "complete morons". Hyper inflation? Global inflation rates have been shrinking year over year since 2011. So far in 2016, it looks like they've finally stabilized compared to the previous year at a whopping 2.82%. Interest rates are in the toilet and have stayed there in order to fight against the very real threat of deflation, not inflation, much less hyper inflation.


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## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

f00bar said:


> Nothing wrong with debt if you can make the payments. The world runs on debt, and that's a good thing. I could have paid cash for my car, but why when its 0.9% financing.
> 
> It seems the general opinion is that being bought was a sign of weakness, Whistler must have been in trouble. Not always the case, strong companies get bought all the time. It can be great for the stock holders. In this case they get a nice instant cash payout and some VR stock that is currently on fire.
> 
> The purpose of Whistler was to make money for its stock holders. And they are doing just that.


Yeah the transaction came at a time when it seemed WB actually wanted to sell. 

Also debt is ok when you're certain on your income forecast. These stock guys get their security from looking at stuff like Linville's numbers   upward trend graphs and happy percentages. Whereas my home economics graphs all show a sinking ship lol for me, debt is scary.

It's a scam really. They all know their stock prices are fake. But they keep at it... like playing poker I guess. Scumbags.


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## f00bar (Mar 6, 2014)

Out of curiosity I pulled up Whistlers last financial report from June. They report a last 3mo loss of 14M (from 9M in 2015). To be expected for after the season.

However a 9 month earnings of 54M (from 32M in 2015) on revenues of about 275M.

Hardly a company that had to sell itself. That said, every company is for sale all the time. In the past 5 years the company I work for has both offered to buy and been offered to be bought out by the same competitor. And these are both healthy 75B and 50B/year revenue companies.


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## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

Everything is always for sale at the right price.


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## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

f00bar said:


> Out of curiosity I pulled up Whistlers last financial report from June. They report a last 3mo loss of 14M (from 9M in 2015). To be expected for after the season.
> 
> However a 9 month earnings of 54M (from 32M in 2015) on revenues of about 275M.
> 
> Hardly a company that had to sell itself. That said, every company is for sale all the time. In the past 5 years the company I work for has both offered to buy and been offered to be bought out by the same competitor. And these are both healthy 75B and 50B/year revenue companies.


Ganging up on that new resort was definitely a factor. Taking on WB is "doable", taking on WB+VR.... well, better get your A+ game on.

The 15% tax another.

Weak CAD.

Global warming. 2014-15 was the worst season ever I think. Maybe the intent to sell started then. They also must have the REAL numbers on snow...

Companies do that all the time (even easier) when their bottom line is $. It's a poker game i guess. That's the evil in corporations.


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## f00bar (Mar 6, 2014)

If you want to see hurting, take a look at Jay. They just had to take a $1.5M loan to meet payroll and are facing a $5M bill to fix their gondola for the season. It's so bad that the receiver has actually asked the court not to pay him in the short term so they can meet payroll.

Now that's a place that is in such bad shape VR probably won't tough it with a 10' pole.

Oh, and that loan is going against the money that the state is collecting as a fine from the people who did the fraud in the first place, who is also still on the Jay payroll for 100k/year consulting fee. wtf.


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## hikeswithdogs (Sep 23, 2011)

f00bar said:


> Just saw in the business news that Vail bought all Backcountry.


Vail takes over US Government, Lindsey Vaughn is the first female president not Hilary Clinton...............

:surprise:


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## jae (Nov 27, 2015)

hikeswithdogs said:


> Vail takes over US Government, Lindsey Vaughn is the first female president not Hilary Clinton...............
> 
> :surprise:


I'll vote for her over clinton. wait a second... this isn't the right thread...


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## Motogp990 (Mar 10, 2013)

So the first tangible affects of vail buying whis. 

The early bird price for next years season pass has been announced at $1229. Last year the early bird price was $14xx. So approx $250 cheaper. 

Season pass at full regular price is $1649. I'm guessing that will drop accordingly and be similar in price to last year's early bird price of $14xx.

Fyi posted this in the Vancouver thread as well.


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## jerry gnarcia (Feb 11, 2017)

No more 1 and 3 day edge cards, and no $79 unlimited spring bonus. Window prices will go up for sure.


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## raoul duke (Feb 23, 2017)

Indeed, i saw that too. Some folks i talked to were expected a more significant price drop i think but I'm surprised they dropped it all. It's not a bad deal really is it? Like you said $250 down from last year = decent.


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## Argo (Feb 25, 2010)

The day pass single prchas price will probably double. Vail is $179us a day as are alot of resorts now. Its $89us right now which is cheap in my eyes for the mountain you get to ride.


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## SnowMoose (Mar 13, 2013)

there's the epic unrestricted pass that can be used at whistler $1117.00 (cad), or (as others have posted)
the whistler pass at $1229.00

Anyway.....details.

https://www.whistlerblackcomb.com/p...pJobID=1001051319&spReportId=MTAwMTA1MTMxOQS2


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## Argo (Feb 25, 2010)

Keeping the whistler pass is pretty ridiculous.


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## readimag (Aug 10, 2011)

They need to do a local pass like CO has for the west coast. I don't need a 900 dollar epic pass I need the 640 I only use three mtn pass haha. Or make a 1 mtn ala cart pass for 640 with 10 days normal bs everywhere else.


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## Motogp990 (Mar 10, 2013)

Argo said:


> Keeping the whistler pass is pretty ridiculous.


I just noticed they sell the epic in usd and the whis pass in cdn. So if the cdn dollar strengthens the epic could be even more cheaper than whis pass already is.

But if they keep all the regular whis pass perks the same as this year, I'd still have to think about it. 

From what I read, the only pass perks with epic are the access to the other hills and discounted buddy tix.

The regular whis perks I like and use are the 20% discounts at a couple of shops that I go to and you get unlimited access to the gondi (hiking only) in the summer , which is normally $60 per day.

I'll probahave wait until the early bird price deadline and choose which pass to buy depending on how strong the cdn dollar is.


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## Argo (Feb 25, 2010)

Epic should give full access, year round. It does at every other resort (minus bike haul access).


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## f00bar (Mar 6, 2014)

It could very well be that the dollar exchange complicates things as for their pricing for the Epic pass. They may need a little bit more time to figure out how to work in the influx of Canadians who may be interested in the Epic with Whistler included.


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## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

Motogp990 said:


> I just noticed they sell the epic in usd and the whis pass in cdn. So if the cdn dollar strengthens the epic could be even more cheaper than whis pass already is.
> 
> But if they keep all the regular whis pass perks the same as this year, I'd still have to think about it.
> 
> ...


I still havent figured out what I want. And dont quite understand the whole idea.....

On the dark side they removed the Family pass which I had this yr and is pretty neat.
On the bright side, the slight discount can go towards my pass for a certain interior BC place.

I don'd need the lodging perks as I am not staying at Whis overnight. Whis will be strictly day trips.... as I would rather go elsewhere for a weekend or longer trip. The 20% discount is fine but..... you can get 20% in many places throughout the season.


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## jerry gnarcia (Feb 11, 2017)

raoul duke said:


> Indeed, i saw that too. Some folks i talked to were expected a more significant price drop i think but I'm surprised they dropped it all. It's not a bad deal really is it? Like you said $250 down from last year = decent.


Well, it's a horrible deal for anyone who went to Whistler several times a season but not enough to warrant a pass and instead has a pass somewhere else. And for anyone who took advantage of unlimited spring on the edge card. 

It might be a good deal for those who were already buying Whistler passes anyway.

Will be interesting to see if traffic goes up or down after this. On one hand, they are going to lose a lot of those edge card types. On the other hand, way more people have access now with the epic pass from their feeder resorts.


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## Argo (Feb 25, 2010)

jerry gnarcia said:


> Well, it's a horrible deal for anyone who went to Whistler several times a season but not enough to warrant a pass and instead has a pass somewhere else. And for anyone who took advantage of unlimited spring on the edge card.
> 
> It might be a good deal for those who were already buying Whistler passes anyway.
> 
> Will be interesting to see if traffic goes up or down after this. On one hand, they are going to lose a lot of those edge card types. On the other hand, way more people have access now with the epic pass from their feeder resorts.


It will most definitely increase traffic. No doubt.


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## Motogp990 (Mar 10, 2013)

F1EA said:


> I still havent figured out what I want. And dont quite understand the whole idea.....
> 
> On the dark side they removed the Family pass which I had this yr and is pretty neat.
> On the bright side, the slight discount can go towards my pass for a certain interior BC place.
> ...


If cdn dollar surges above $0.80 by April, I'll get epic.


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