# Second pair of binding recommendation?



## ConcreteVitamin (Aug 3, 2017)

Boards I own:
+ K2 Eighty Seven (volume-shifted short-tailed, freeride/powder/all-mountain)
+ Capita DOA (all-mountain freestyle, jumps)

Binding I own:
+ Union Contact Pro

I'm therefore looking to get my 2nd pair of binding. What do you recommend?

I currently pair the Contact Pro with the DOA. Should I get a new binding to pair with it, for what I want to do on that board (learn small jumps, sidehits, grabs)?

Or should the new binding be paired with the K2 Eighty Seven?

EDIT: some bindings I'm thinking about - Union Force/Atlas (too much overlap with Contact Pro?), Burton Malavita/Cartel


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## 161210 (Feb 9, 2018)

I have Arbor Hemlocks from last year and I love them....seem to be (for me) a very good combo of enough support yet some flex. I use them with: Iguchi rocker, Never Summer Swift and a Stormchaser...I have no desire to change them out. 

I am considering a set of Now bindings for a very stiff and midwide camber board I have....haven't decided on that yet.


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## chomps1211 (Mar 30, 2011)

Check Kevin's review of the Rome Katana on Angrysnowboarder.com. 

Adjustability is second to none. I have the 2016's & I love 'em. (...mounted them on my full camber Arbor Roundhouse.) 

2019's have supposedly been made even better. 

:hairy:


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## ConcreteVitamin (Aug 3, 2017)

chomps1211 said:


> Check Kevin's review of the Rome Katana on Angrysnowboarder.com.
> 
> Adjustability is second to none. I have the 2016's & I love 'em. (...mounted them on my full camber Arbor Roundhouse.)
> 
> ...


Rome bindings do look like they have awesome adjustability. Can you also comment on comfort compared to other brands you've tried? 

Also, https://www.evo.com/outlet/snowboard-bindings/rome-390-boss-2018 "Most Liked Positive Review" said he couldn't get any Rome replacement parts after something went wrong. This makes me pause as I don't want to have that situation.

---
EDIT: just found more issues with Rome warranty https://www.evo.com/outlet/snowboard-bindings/rome-katana-2018. I will stay out of this brand just for piece of mind...


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## Nivek (Jan 24, 2008)

Maybe something's up with Evo? One, with how much Rome we sell I haven't talked to a customer who even needed to get something replaced. And two, all stories up until these on Evo have been nothing but glowing reviews of their customer service and warranty. The first dude straight up seems completely off. And while a warranty is a warranty, honestly sounds like the kind of fukboi that would trash the brands stuff in the warranty request, which usually gets you nowhere. 

The only thing I can think of is that maybe all this happened as Rome transitioned into Low Pressure Studios? A change like that gums up everything.

Romes warranty and customer service have always had a history of being top notch. I've heard multiple stories of full sets of high backs, straps, ladders, and other pieces when only a single peice was requested. I wouldn't let these two worry you. I ride Rome and have complete faith they'd take care of anything I might need.


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## SGboarder (Jun 24, 2012)

ConcreteVitamin said:


> Rome bindings do look like they have awesome adjustability. Can you also comment on comfort compared to other brands you've tried?
> 
> Also, https://www.evo.com/outlet/snowboard-bindings/rome-390-boss-2018 "Most Liked Positive Review" said he couldn't get any Rome replacement parts after something went wrong. This makes me pause as I don't want to have that situation.
> 
> ...


That review doesn't sound very credible. Anyway, the guy also came to this forum with the same story: https://www.snowboardingforum.com/bindings/255314-rome-katana-lifetime-warranty-what-joke.html

In response, he got a bunch of people almost exclusively praising the Rome customer service and warranty replacements...


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## Rip154 (Sep 23, 2017)

Are you happy with the Contact Pro?
Do you want a stiffer highback?
Do you want/need canting?
Is your footsize around 10-11 (some bindings have weird gaps here)?
What's your budget?

It's just guesswork if we don't know the answer to those.

Union Force/Atlas is pretty similar, stiffer and more support than the Contact Pro, but the Atlas is a bit stiffer and has canting for those wide stance BC jump stompers.

Burton Cartel/Malavita are similar too. Both have "Autocant", which is a milder form for canting. Around the same stiffness as the Contact Pro. Malavita is more expensive and has different straps, buckles and ladders.


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## chomps1211 (Mar 30, 2011)

ConcreteVitamin said:


> Rome bindings do look like they have awesome adjustability. Can you also comment on comfort compared to other brands you've tried?


That's the point entirely. With all that adjustability,.. they are _very_ comfortable. Not to mention more responsive. 

I had long since quit riding that wide Arbor because I couldn't center any of my Cartel binders properly on it. Edging that board Toeside was just too damned much work. 

However now,.. after I Add some stiffer boots to go along with the Katanas, centering and adjusting them to provide better toeside response,... I have fallen in love with that board all over again. (...she was my first afterall!) 

Unless you are situated in Lithuania :shrug: like the guy doing all the complaining? Pretty sure you've nothing to worry about warranty wise.


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## ConcreteVitamin (Aug 3, 2017)

Rip154 said:


> Are you happy with the Contact Pro?
> Do you want a stiffer highback?
> Do you want/need canting?
> Is your footsize around 10-11 (some bindings have weird gaps here)?
> What's your budget?


Very happy. The moment I put them on to replace previous Flow Fuse, my feet stopped hurting. I felt the board flex much more lively. 

If people think Contact Pro is good for me learning small jumps and all mountain freestyle, then yes I do want a stiffer highback to do carving. 

I’d love to try out some form of canting. Don’t known what it feels like. 

Size 8. Ideally less than $250. 

I think the Katana is too expensive. Burton ones look good and I can get 25% off. Would Cartel complement well with the Contact Pro?


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## Rip154 (Sep 23, 2017)

Cartels and Contact Pros are really similar, but Cartel highbacks are a bit higher and has a more progressive flex, Contact Pro goes to a certain point, then folds slightly. Figure you would have to try really hard to get that while riding normally, but I've had some off balance landings where it's noticable. You can always crank some forward lean to get more response though. With the pros using it, you won't have a problem with the Cartels. If you want an even stiffer highback, there's the Clutch, but that one doesn't have canting at all.


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## ConcreteVitamin (Aug 3, 2017)

Rip154 said:


> Cartels and Contact Pros are really similar, but Cartel highbacks are a bit higher and has a more progressive flex, Contact Pro goes to a certain point, then folds slightly. Figure you would have to try really hard to get that while riding normally, but I've had some off balance landings where it's noticable. You can always crank some forward lean to get more response though. With the pros using it, you won't have a problem with the Cartels. If you want an even stiffer highback, there's the Clutch, but that one doesn't have canting at all.


If they are so similar would I be better off getting the Malavita, to cover more conditions/riding style?


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## chomps1211 (Mar 30, 2011)

Cartels are a solid binding. I own 3 pairs of them. 

Just be aware you lose a great deal of adjustability with the Cartels. Take your board & boots with you to the store when you check out the Cartels. Make sure they will mount and center your boots where you want them. (..with two of my boards, they tended to be heel side heavy even when maxed out for toeside.)

This issue tends to be boot & board specific. Some folks have the trouble, others don't. :shrug:


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## Rip154 (Sep 23, 2017)

ConcreteVitamin said:


> If they are so similar would I be better off getting the Malavita, to cover more conditions/riding style?


You won't cover more with the Vitas than Cartel. You just get more features, newer tech for a higher price. Atlas would be a step up, but is also more expensive.


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## ConcreteVitamin (Aug 3, 2017)

chomps1211 said:


> Cartels are a solid binding. I own 3 pairs of them.
> 
> Just be aware you lose a great deal of adjustability with the Cartels. Take your board & boots with you to the store when you check out the Cartels. Make sure they will mount and center your boots where you want them. (..with two of my boards, they tended to be heel side heavy even when maxed out for toeside.)
> 
> This issue tends to be boot & board specific. Some folks have the trouble, others don't. :shrug:


Questions:

1) Does the Malavita have this limitation in adjustability?

2) I read some reviews on Cartels, saying it can't be adjusted for stance width if my board isn't channel. What does that mean? Does that mean there's no tip-to-tail movement possible & I can't even move both bindings back for powder days?


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## chomps1211 (Mar 30, 2011)

I can't say from personal experience. But if the Malvitas use the same uni-body frame & reflex discs? My guess (...and it _is_ a guess) is they would have the same heel/toe adjustability issue. (...non ICS bindings that is.)

The stance width thing?? I think that is about the reflex discs having no _micro_ adjustment fore & aft. (...tip to tail.) 

Again,.. this is not from personal experience. But I have seen/heard ppl come here to sbf and complain they can't adjust their bindings a few mm's wider or narrower using the reflex discs. Apparently some bindings mounting discs allow for that type of smaller, super fine (...read, anal retentive) :laugh: stance adjustments and the reflex don't! :shrug: 

I personally wouldn't worry about that type adjustability. I doubt you would notice the difference. I Don't.


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## Rip154 (Sep 23, 2017)

Reflex bindings have a flexpoint in the disc, so the baseplate doesn't interfere with the flex of the board as much. They traded this for side adjustability on 2x4 insert pattern, which can make your stance 1 cm wider or narrower or move your stance 0,5 cm to either side. The Burton Clutch is a really affordable option for those who want a stiffer highback. You also get an ancle strap with the same shape as the Vitas.


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## chomps1211 (Mar 30, 2011)

Rip154 said:


> Reflex bindings have a flexpoint in the disc, so the baseplate doesn't interfere with the flex of the board as much. *They traded this for side adjustability on 2x4 insert pattern, which can make your stance 1 cm wider or narrower or move your stance 0,5 cm to either side. *The Burton Clutch is a really affordable option for those who want a stiffer highback. You also get an ancle strap with the same shape as the Vitas.


Ok @ Rip154,.. thanks for that info. I guess a full cm adjustment to stance width can/could make a noticeable difference. 

I was under the impression we were only talking like a few mm's. (...which always seemed a little persnickety to me!) lol  :blink:


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## Rip154 (Sep 23, 2017)

I kinda agree with you though, but with the other things we do for comfort in snowboarding, this isn't too weird. Had some runs on one of my old boards with 4x4, and couldn't get it just right.


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## Salt Shaker (Sep 13, 2017)

ConcreteVitamin said:


> Boards I own:
> + K2 Eighty Seven (volume-shifted short-tailed, freeride/powder/all-mountain)
> + Capita DOA (all-mountain freestyle, jumps)
> 
> ...


Personally I would run the C-Pro on the DOA and get Force/Atlas for the Eighty Seven. Since the 87 is wider a full sized disc will drive power better and the adjustable toe ramps will give you more leverage. Plus you get more supportive straps and highbacks over the C-Pro.

I use C-Pros (with a Force ankle strap) on my freestyle decks and Forces on my Assassin wide. Only reason I did not go Atlas is because I'm not into canting with my current stance.


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## Nivek (Jan 24, 2008)

ConcreteVitamin said:


> Rip154 said:
> 
> 
> > Are you happy with the Contact Pro?
> ...


If you like Katana but it's too much on the budget look at Vices. Similar feel at a more approachable price. Solid binding.


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## Salt Shaker (Sep 13, 2017)

Nivek said:


> Romes warranty and customer service have always had a history of being top notch. I've heard multiple stories of full sets of high backs, straps, ladders, and other pieces when only a single peice was requested. I wouldn't let these two worry you. I ride Rome and have complete faith they'd take care of anything I might need.


I think their warranty "team" may have changed. Three years ago I received a binding with a boogered heel loop. Rome was quick to reply and sent a replacement. 

Last year I purchased a new Rome board from my local shop at list price. After removing the shrink wrap I noticed a 3" crack in the top sheet clear coat. I immediately submitted a warranty claim and the shop also contacted their rep. Long story short: After 3 weeks of me sending numerous emails and leaving voicemails, Rome's response was for me to send the board to their office for evaluation, and I would have to pay for shipping.

The response I was hoping for- "That sucks! The dozen pictures you sent, along with the shop owners feedback, confirm it is a defect. We are shipping out a replacement"

The shop gave me a refund, and told me to purchase another one online since they could not get a hold of their Rome rep to request another board. They no longer carry Rome products because of this event.

I still like Rome and will continue to buy their products. I think their warranty department may be understaffed and the So-Cal regional rep is a flake.


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## ConcreteVitamin (Aug 3, 2017)

Salt Shaker said:


> ConcreteVitamin said:
> 
> 
> > Boards I own:
> ...


Thanks for the info. 

Wow, I haven’t heard of the advice “put full sized disks on wider, volume shifted, tapered decks”. 

I thought mini-disks are just better in that they deliver more board flex. 

Can you actually notice a different b/t full sized and mini disks on such decks?


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## SGboarder (Jun 24, 2012)

ConcreteVitamin said:


> Thanks for the info.
> 
> Wow, I haven’t heard of the advice “put full sized disks on wider, volume shifted, tapered decks”.
> 
> ...


Good question. The answer is no. Mini-disks have some drawbacks (adjustability, might not work with 4x4 hole patterns, some more demands on the engineering/material used etc) but they will drive power just the same as full sized disks.


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## Salt Shaker (Sep 13, 2017)

ConcreteVitamin said:


> Thanks for the info.
> 
> Wow, I haven’t heard of the advice “put full sized disks on wider, volume shifted, tapered decks”.
> 
> ...


For this scenario, when comparing the C-Pro to the Force, the full sized disc will help to deliver power better than the mini disc. I was just making note of that design feature for the sake of comparison. 

Will all bindings with full sized discs provide better power transmission than mini disc? No. Overall chassis design and material composition play the biggest role. 

If you want to get an idea of whats going on underneath all the foam on the C-Pro and Force, look at page 22 of this Union catalog https://issuu.com/bane4/docs/union_bindings_2016 . Knowing how the C-Pro rides, you may get a feeling of how the Force/Atlas will differ in performance. 

With all of the solid options out there I am sure you will be hyped on whatever you choose whether it be Union, Rome, Burton, Nitro, Arbor (2019), etc. Kevin from Angrysnowboarder does a great job of breaking it all down.


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## MrDavey2Shoes (Mar 5, 2018)

Check out the Union Strata, has some of the playfulness of the contacts but I find great response for carving. You can really feel the freedom when shifting weight nose to tail, nice feeling on a surfy board. Throw them on the volume shifted k2.


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## SGboarder (Jun 24, 2012)

Salt Shaker said:


> For this scenario, when comparing the C-Pro to the Force, the full sized disc will help to deliver power better than the mini disc.


Sorry, but it will not. The difference in power transfer is entirely due other factors. Mini-disk vs. full-size disk does not matter for that.


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## Salt Shaker (Sep 13, 2017)

SGboarder said:


> Sorry, but it will not. The difference in power transfer is entirely due other factors. Mini-disk vs. full-size disk does not matter for that.


Disc size is absolutely a contributing factor to how each binding will perform. If the Force and C-Pro swapped discs, there would be a change in the way power is transmitted to the board. 

If you read my replies in full, you will see where I mentioned how chassis design and material composition play the biggest role in overall binding performance. 

There is a Union rep on this forum, and if you reach out to them I am sure they will provide feedback on the impact discs have in power transmission.


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## Albert Totti (Dec 19, 2018)

Try Burton Malavitas.


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## SGboarder (Jun 24, 2012)

Salt Shaker said:


> Disc size is absolutely a contributing factor to how each binding will perform. If the Force and C-Pro swapped discs, there would be a change in the way power is transmitted to the board.
> 
> If you read my replies in full, you will see where I mentioned how chassis design and material composition play the biggest role in overall binding performance.
> 
> There is a Union rep on this forum, and if you reach out to them I am sure they will provide feedback on the impact discs have in power transmission.


I am not disputing all the other factors, but disk size has got nothing to do with it.


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## Rip154 (Sep 23, 2017)

With minidisc you can have a smaller frame, or at least they did that on most bindings, so the baseplates are softer. Still most of the power comes from the toes or highback. Of course a softer baseplate transfer less power from the highback.


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## surfvilano (Dec 20, 2010)

ConcreteVitamin said:


> Boards I own:
> + K2 Eighty Seven (volume-shifted short-tailed, freeride/powder/all-mountain)
> + Capita DOA (all-mountain freestyle, jumps)
> 
> ...



I've got a set of the Scotty Stevens Contacts(Flex is rated the same as contact pros) and 2 sets of forces(one from '11/'12 and one from this season). The forces are definitely noticeably stiffer and provide additional support when riding steeps whereas the contacts are softer/flexier and feel much more suited for park riding. Unions website has all their model's flex ratings in the product description pages so you can compare/contrast their stiffness/flex. I generally ride the contacts when I'm going to ride park all day and the forces if I'm going to do both park and alpine riding or only alpine riding during the day. I have ridden the contacts for alpine riding in the past but feel like the additional flex in the highbacks tends to wear out muscles a bit faster on anything choppy/moguls in addition to being slightly less responsive edge to edge. The forces are great on the steeps and work perfectly fine for jumps/rails in the park as well, you just lose a bit of tweak-ability. If you like your contact pros and want to keep supporting union, yet feel like you want something even stiffer than the forces for your free ride/powder/all-mountain board, maybe instead of the forces give the atlas a try? I can't give any feedback on them though as I haven't had the chance to try em out yet. The stratas also appear to have very similar stiffness/flex profiles to the forces just reversed for base plate / high backs. Good luck!


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## ConcreteVitamin (Aug 3, 2017)

surfvilano said:


> ConcreteVitamin said:
> 
> 
> > Boards I own:
> ...


Thanks for the detailed info. I am not sure I’m ready to be fully Union ? you ever owned / ridden Burton bindings?


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