# Spending money on coaching and comps?



## Pigpen (Feb 3, 2013)

Sound like you're a pretty good snowboarder! And you're still young.. you'll be just fine! Just keep on goin :eusa_clap:


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## Sassicaia (Jan 21, 2012)

If the money is in spite of tuition then I would say no, don't spend it. If they can afford both, and your snowboarding is just a hobby regardless if you ever get a financial return then go for it.


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## Jibfreak (Jul 16, 2009)

Is your goal to make snowboarding your living and get a sponsorship, or do you just do it to have fun?


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## freshy (Nov 18, 2009)

That's nice of you to be concerned for your parents. But it seems like they would be okay with letting you do what you love to do. If I were in your shoes I'd be training my ass off to be the best rider I could possibly be to hopefully have that one in a million shot at being financially successful riding a toy.
If you don't think you really have a shot at that then maybe opt out of the comps and do it for fun. That is if it has to be one or the other, if you can do comps and go to college or whatever then do both.
Your just really lucky you have parent that support your snowboarding dreams, because I think most would push their kids to go the safer route.


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## BigmountainVMD (Oct 9, 2011)

SnowBunny39 said:


> So, I'm a girl and I turned 18 in September. Is it too old to still be on a team this year and compete? I have won comps, but they are all in Idaho soooo. I just feel bad for my parents spending 1000 bucks on a snowboard team which they could be using towards tuition. I can do backflips, frontboards, board slides, occasionally 270s out but definitely not in, and I can do a back 5 tail grab(just learned it), but very very inconsistent with front side spins. Is there any hope to go further in snowboarding or should I just stop now and save me family a grand?


I have a female friend who has a low level sponsorship by Never Summer. She has some more tricks under her belt than you, but is 22. I was riding with her 2 years ago in March and while she is fairly good a jibbing, she was still working on 3's off 15/20 foot jumps. She got the sponsorship the next season, with no real "coach" to speak of.

I think if you focus on snowboarding, get some coaching and start traveling to other states for competitions, you will absolutely make something of yourself. At least do it for a season or two to see if have what it takes to really advance when you go for it.


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## timmytard (Mar 19, 2009)

If you're a cutie,:hope: I say go for it.:thumbsup:

If you're kinda yucky, the schoolin' is probably the better choice


TT


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## ridinbend (Aug 2, 2012)

timmytard said:


> If you're a cutie,:hope: I say go for it.:thumbsup:
> 
> If you're kinda yucky, the schoolin' is probably the better choice
> 
> ...


Nice answer. You forgot to tell her she should only weigh 90lbs or else hang herself. Oh yeah anorexia is cool too. Fucking dick.


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## snowklinger (Aug 30, 2011)

timmytard said:


> If you're a cutie,:hope: I say go for it.:thumbsup:
> 
> If you're kinda yucky, the schoolin' is probably the better choice
> 
> ...





ridinbend said:


> Nice answer. You forgot to tell her she should only weigh 90lbs or else hang herself. Oh yeah anorexia is cool too. Fucking dick.


lulz..........................


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## Deacon (Mar 2, 2013)

ridinbend said:


> Nice answer. You forgot to tell her she should only weigh 90lbs or else hang herself. Oh yeah anorexia is cool too. Fucking dick.


Not everybody gets TT's humor. Or recognizes it.


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## neni (Dec 24, 2012)

ridinbend said:


> Nice answer. You forgot to tell her she should only weigh 90lbs or else hang herself. Oh yeah anorexia is cool too. Fucking dick.


Well... TT isn't completely off with his comment. Watching the 2010 Olimpic Games, I remember telling myself hmmm, astonishing, how good looking female snowboarders are... 

E.g. boarder cross:









The trend continues looking at halfpipe. Well, and skiers.
Or would you say, these are typical faces of average women?


















Nothing wrong with being good looking, it's also way off to diminish the performance of a woman just cos she's an eye-catcher; these girls are great athletes! It's just hypocritical to pretend, that appearence doesn't help...


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## West Baden Iron (Jan 31, 2013)

neni said:


> Well... TT isn't completely off with his comment. Watching the 2010 Olimpic Games, I remember telling myself hmmm, astonishing, how good looking female snowboarders are...
> 
> E.g. boarder cross:
> 
> ...


I think athletes are just naturally better looking because they generally take care of themselves better than the general public. Rarely do you see a hagard looking troll in top level athletics. Maybe being an attractive person helps you along the way to get there, I'm not sure. You still have to put in the work.

However, it absolutely helps to be a very attractive person once you get to the top level. You don't always have to be the best to get all the attention once you get to that level though. Anna Kournikova is a good example.


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## Jed (May 11, 2011)

SnowBunny39 said:


> So, I'm a girl and I turned 18 in September. Is it too old to still be on a team this year and compete? I have won comps, but they are all in Idaho soooo. I just feel bad for my parents spending 1000 bucks on a snowboard team which they could be using towards tuition. I can do backflips, frontboards, board slides, occasionally 270s out but definitely not in, and I can do a back 5 tail grab(just learned it), but very very inconsistent with front side spins. Is there any hope to go further in snowboarding or should I just stop now and save me family a grand?


There's always hope and the ability to go further in snowboarding, especially at your age as a female boarder.

However, the question you have to ask yourself is what is most important to you and is pro snowboarding a career path you want to attempt (and do you enjoy it since pro snowboarding isn't always just about snowboarding, but one part politics/business as well)?

What do you really love to do and does that match up to pro snowboarding and competing and the demands of being a competitive pro.

I think that question is more important than "Could the $1k be better spent on college?" because college will always be there and honestly there are 5000 other paths to being successful in life, college is just 1 of them. Don't buy into the nonsense that says you have to go to college to be successful (unless you happen to want to be in a career that requires college, such as engineering or medicine).

What do you enjoy and love to do in life. Do that and work hard on finding a way to make a living doing it.

You're young, you still have time to do anything you want in life. Don't get hung up on the old 'you need college to be successful' nonsense. If you want to see where pro snowboarding can take you and you enjoy doing it, then go for it, but make sure you're prepared and know what you're getting into.


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## BurtonAvenger (Aug 14, 2007)

This is everything that is wrong with snowboarding.


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## Lagomorphic (Jan 9, 2013)

The Deacon said:


> Not everybody gets TT's humor. Or recognizes it.


Perhaps because it's not funny . . .


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## Sassicaia (Jan 21, 2012)

The Deacon said:


> Not everybody gets TT's humor. Or recognizes it.


its not just humour. Lets call a spade a spade....ugly girls need an education. No guy is going to flip the bill for a woman unless she is hot. Its the way things are. Hot girls get rich guys. Ever see a professional athlete with an ugly girl? Is it just coincidence they are all hot?

Check out the top 50 most power woman list each year and ask yourselves why there is NEVER a hot girl in that list. 

50 Most Powerful Women in Business 2013 - Fortune Magazine


is what it is. 


All that said if the original poster is a 10 she would get a sponsorship easier then if she was fugly.


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## Donutz (May 12, 2010)

Sassicaia said:


> its not just humour. Lets call a spade a spade....ugly girls need an education. No guy is going to flip the bill for a woman unless she is hot. Its the way things are. Hot girls get rich guys. Ever see a professional athlete with an ugly girl? Is it just coincidence they are all hot?


Very true unfortunately, and it also highlights another problem -- recognizing the difference between _acknowledging_ a problem and _approving_ of it. Political correctness being what it is, just bringing up the existence of an issue is liable to get you ripped into.


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## NoOtherOptions (Nov 28, 2011)

Sassicaia said:


> its not just humour. Lets call a spade a spade....ugly girls need an education. No guy is going to flip the bill for a woman unless she is hot. Its the way things are. Hot girls get rich guys. Ever see a professional athlete with an ugly girl? Is it just coincidence they are all hot?
> 
> Check out the top 50 most power woman list each year and ask yourselves why there is NEVER a hot girl in that list.
> 
> ...


Marissa Mayer is actually pretty hot. I'd do her. Most of those women are older, as people get older they tend to be less attractive. You telling me Carlos Slim Helu, Bill Gates, or Warren Buffett, Zuckerberg, etc are attractive? You're point is silly. Most of those women were probably gorgeous when they were younger.


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## NoOtherOptions (Nov 28, 2011)

Let me see if that link works.


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## Unkept Porpoise (Aug 15, 2013)

I think even asking this question makes me think you should put your money towards school, to become a pro you need to be extremely driven, I wouldn't say it is undoable but if your that unsure I would put the money towards schooling and lift tickets and snowboard for the joy of it and not as a career.


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## boarderaholic (Aug 13, 2007)

NoOtherOptions said:


> Let me see if that link works.


I have those shoes. They are amazing.


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## Bones (Feb 24, 2008)

SnowBunny39 said:


> Is there any hope to go further in snowboarding or should I just stop now and save me family a grand?


Sounds like a pretty mature question for an 18 year old.

At your age, I was what you would call an "identified", partially federally funded athlete in another sport. Although I didn't achieve my Olympic dream, I wouldn't trade that experience for anything.

Just a couple of points:

1) If you have the means (marks, money, etc.) then you owe it to yourself (and your parents) to get an education. Doesn't have to be now, but it has to be sometime. 

2) Whatever you choose, you will be giving something up. If you do put education on hold, then when you do do it, you'll be older than your classmates, for example and the experience won't be the same 

3) If you're going to go for snowboarding, then really go for it. Don't let partying, relationships, etc. get in the way. Have no regrets at the end.

4) Don't listen to losers. Lots of people think they could do it, but never try. To quote Dizzy Dean "Until you've done it, you haven't done it."


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## Deacon (Mar 2, 2013)

NoOtherOptions said:


> *Marissa Mayer is actually pretty hot. I'd do her*. Most of those women are older, as people get older they tend to be less attractive. You telling me Carlos Slim Helu, Bill Gates, or Warren Buffett, Zuckerberg, etc are attractive? You're point is silly. Most of those women were probably gorgeous when they were younger.


TT gets ripped for telling a joke, but this pervasive mysogynistic attitude is acceptable? At what point in evolution will my fellow men grow beyond the favor of "I'd do her" to "how could i better myself to a level where she'd be interested"?


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## Jed (May 11, 2011)

Bones said:


> 1) If you have the means (marks, money, etc.) then you owe it to yourself (and your parents) to get an education. Doesn't have to be now, but it has to be sometime.


OP, please note that education does not always = college.

It can equal college in some cases, but don't be pressured into the 'You owe yourself a college education!' nonsense. There are many ways to get educated these days and as I said already, college is one of many options (and in many cases where a degree isn't required for a career, college is often one of the worst options to choose, especially if you have an option for real world experience).

Alrighty, continue discussion.


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## NoOtherOptions (Nov 28, 2011)

The Deacon said:


> TT gets ripped for telling a joke, but this pervasive mysogynistic attitude is acceptable? At what point in evolution will my fellow men grow beyond the favor of "I'd do her" to "how could i better myself to a level where she'd be interested"?


Go fuck yourself. "I'd do her" is hardly misogynistic. One: if you're going to use a word spell it properly. Two: learn the meaning of the word, I have neither hatred, nor mistrust of women. http://www.reference.com/browse/Misogyny Sexist, demeaning, etc. would have been correct. Misogynistic is not. I value women far and above being sexual objects, Marissa Mayer I actively dislike (more to do with the stupid shit she says than her sex) but I do find her physically attractive. I could have been far more tactful, but I'm also not the asshole running around saying "ugly chicks better be smart hurr durr." My gf is incredibly smart, and also very fucking attractive.


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## AIRider (Dec 25, 2010)

Why don't you get a side job and make that 1000$. And go for it, sounds like you're better than 99% of boarders on this forum, so why are you even questioning yourself. 

Also, try to find a school that offers scholarships/grants for winter sports athletes, and go get that degree. 

I had a basketball scholarship, got my degree for free and played for two years in Europe. My biggest regret. I wished I WORKED HARDER. 

At the time, it seemed like I was training hard, but looking back I wish I had done more, trained harder, spent more time in the gym practicing.


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## Sassicaia (Jan 21, 2012)

NoOtherOptions said:


> Marissa Mayer is actually pretty hot. I'd do her. Most of those women are older, as people get older they tend to be less attractive. You telling me Carlos Slim Helu, Bill Gates, or Warren Buffett, Zuckerberg, etc are attractive? You're point is silly. Most of those women were probably gorgeous when they were younger.


Just because there are acceptions to rules doesnt mean the rule isnt true. She is a 6.5 at best, but in a sea of 3s and 4s.

All these "older" woman were never hot. Ever. I look at that list ever year and they are all homely. 

You are missing the point. The men don't have to be hot. Its not as if the hot men are in a position where a rich woman will take care of them (baring in very odd exception).

The point is hot woman get taken care of by guys with money. Ugly woman don't because men with money have the choice of dating hot woman. Its obvious. Therefore, ugly woman need to fend for themselves. 

It doesnt have to be a bad thing, its nature. In fact, I just watched a documentary recently on the psychology of female that chase professional athletes. Its codes in females to be attracted to providers and athletic males at the top. Its coded in men to want to procreate with good genes i.e. hot woman.


No need to fight it, as it will never chance. Rich men will never choose fat ugly girls over hot ones, and hot woman will never choose homeless men over rich men.

Ever see a hot homeless girl?


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## neni (Dec 24, 2012)

Sassicaia said:


> Ever see a professional athlete with an ugly girl? Is it just coincidence they are all hot?


one nice exception  the athlete with the second highest income doesn't come with a plastic hottie. Wife's surely not ugly, but refreshing normal.


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## wrathfuldeity (Oct 5, 2007)

SnowBunny39 said:


> So, I'm a girl and I turned 18 in September. Is it too old to still be on a team this year and compete? I have won comps, but they are all in Idaho soooo. I just feel bad for my parents spending 1000 bucks on a snowboard team which they could be using towards tuition. I can do backflips, frontboards, board slides, occasionally 270s out but definitely not in, and I can do a back 5 tail grab(just learned it), but very very inconsistent with front side spins. Is there any hope to go further in snowboarding or should I just stop now and save me family a grand?


Have no idea if ur hot or not...but lets say you are at least attractive, fit, confident and willing to go for it. Have your parent's put money toward tuition. And you go and find folks to ride with that will help push your envelope. If you are gutzy, willing to keep up and have the personality to hang with the boys and amazons...they will help you. Problem is not many young women/girls have that combination and guys are suspicious of it...and other girls are envious of it...until you prove you can hang...but if you do...they can open up worlds that very few women get access to.


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## Deacon (Mar 2, 2013)

NoOtherOptions said:


> Go fuck yourself. "I'd do her" is hardly misogynistic. One: if you're going to use a word spell it properly. Two: learn the meaning of the word, I have neither hatred, nor mistrust of women. Misogyny | Learn everything there is to know about Misogyny at Reference.com Sexist, demeaning, etc. would have been correct. Misogynistic is not. I value women far and above being sexual objects, Marissa Mayer I actively dislike (more to do with the stupid shit she says than her sex) but I do find her physically attractive. I could have been far more tactful, but I'm also not the asshole running around saying "ugly chicks better be smart hurr durr." My gf is incredibly smart, and also very fucking attractive.


Easy there homeboy. I was using your statement as an example, not YOU. I don't even know you, let alone know you well enough to think one statement defines you. Sorry if I wasn't clear about that. It's the attitude that I see so often that accompanies that type of statement, and I see and hear it so much from a lot of the dirtbags I work with.


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## NoOtherOptions (Nov 28, 2011)

The Deacon said:


> Easy there homeboy. I was using your statement as an example, not YOU. I don't even know you, let alone know you well enough to think one statement defines you. Sorry if I wasn't clear about that. It's the attitude that I see so often that accompanies that type of statement, and I see and hear it so much from a lot of the dirtbags I work with.


Semi apology accepted.  I could have been more tactful, but the comment I was responding to was stupid so I didn't worry too much about it. Marissa Mayer is beautiful and intelligent, her statements are obnoxious but hey you take what you can. I guarantee 90% of guys here would be thankful she even said yes to them (in terms of even talking to them).


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## t21 (Dec 29, 2010)

wrathfuldeity said:


> Have no idea if ur hot or not...but lets say you are at least attractive, fit, confident and willing to go for it. Have your parent's put money toward tuition. And you go and find folks to ride with that will help push your envelope. If you are gutzy, willing to keep up and have the personality to hang with the boys and amazons...they will help you. Problem is not many young women/girls have that combination and guys are suspicious of it...and other girls are envious of it...until you prove you can hang...but if you do...they can open up worlds that very few women get access to.


To support this fact, and not being a dick but Kelly Clark comes to mind. She is the top snowboarder in the world but she is not that attractive. I mean if you have Gretchen bleiler or Elena Hight(not sure how to spell her name) along side her to train with who would you pick last?? again,not being a dick,just an opinion.


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## chomps1211 (Mar 30, 2011)

Poor, poor Snowbunny! Boy did _her_ thread jump the rails or what? :blink: 

Nice guys are boring! Hot chicks can get a lot of guys to give them all kinds of stuff! Hot, good looking guys who are _complete_ assholes will still get all the chicks. Ugly old fat rich guys will get laid by younger, better looking women than I will!

Being blonde and having boobs will get you a *shit load* of votes in a snowboard giveaway! (....whoops! Different thread!) LOL!!!  

If you aren't rich, talented or good looking? You'd _damned well_ _better_ be educated & smart!!!!!!

.....And, tomorrow the sun will rise in the east and set somewhere's west of me! Are we _really_ arguing about this shit.


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## EastCoastChris (Feb 24, 2013)

OMG. This is quite possibly one of the single most retarded things I've read on this or any forum. 




Sassicaia said:


> Just because there are acceptions to rules doesnt mean the rule isnt true. She is a 6.5 at best, but in a sea of 3s and 4s.
> 
> All these "older" woman were never hot. Ever. I look at that list ever year and they are all homely.
> 
> ...


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## backstop13 (Jun 27, 2012)

I'm not getting in this debate about good looking girls etc because it's all a bunch of horseshit. What I will say is, regardless of your looks, go get your education. Snowboard because you love it, not because you're trying to make a living out of it. I would argue that a great majority of people who make their hobby their job grow to hate it, it's the nature of the beast.

If you're talented enough that you have the opportunity to go pro, embrace it. But if/when shit happens and you can't ride anymore (injury, financial shit that happens, life in general) at least you'll have an education to fall back on and won't have to flip burgers down at the local burger king.


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## backstop13 (Jun 27, 2012)

EastCoastChris said:


> OMG. This is quite possibly one of the single most retarded things I've read on this or any forum.


you never read any of JetFalcon's old posts did you?


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## EastCoastChris (Feb 24, 2013)

Lol. This.

Sometimes I forget there ARE grown ups on this forum. 



backstop13 said:


> I'm not getting in this debate about good looking girls etc because it's all a bunch of horseshit. What I will say is, regardless of your looks, go get your education. Snowboard because you love it, not because you're trying to make a living out of it. I would argue that a great majority of people who make their hobby their job grow to hate it, it's the nature of the beast.
> 
> If you're talented enough that you have the opportunity to go pro, embrace it. But if/when shit happens and you can't ride anymore (injury, financial shit that happens, life in general) at least you'll have an education to fall back on and won't have to flip burgers down at the local burger king.


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## EastCoastChris (Feb 24, 2013)

backstop13 said:


> you never read any of JetFalcon's old posts did you?


He was pro troll though. 

This whole discussion is a bunch of legit frustrated 16 year old boys who do their best to drive young women out of snowboarding by being douches and then complain when girls are too bitchy to call em back. 

Good thing I started riding before it became a "scene" or I never would have stuck with it.


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## backstop13 (Jun 27, 2012)

EastCoastChris said:


> He was pro troll though.


I know I was just messing with you.

You're right though...lots of fellas in here thinking good looks are the only reason to be attracted to a girl. I guess you ladies don't have personalities or good senses of humor that might make a guy more attracted to you. It's all about the looks!!!


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## mojo maestro (Jan 6, 2009)

She better know how to make me a sammich.


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## trapper (Jan 15, 2013)

My wife is hot, intelligent AND can make one hell of a sammich. #Winning!

But she (skier) doesn't snowboard....yet.


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## poutanen (Dec 22, 2011)

5 pages in and the OP is long gone... :bowdown:


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## Unkept Porpoise (Aug 15, 2013)

poutanen said:


> 5 pages in and the OP is long gone... :bowdown:


Seems to be a trend around here.


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## chomps1211 (Mar 30, 2011)

trapper said:


> My wife is hot, intelligent AND can make one hell of a sammich. #Winning!...


...that means _YOU_ must be rich!!!  :eusa_clap:


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## trapper (Jan 15, 2013)

Anything but. I'm still trying to figure out why she keeps me around. I snagged her when we were young, so maybe I duped her with my potential that I never lived up to!


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## EastCoastChris (Feb 24, 2013)

Lmao.

Yeah I lean on my personality and wit pretty hard because my husband is WAY out of my league. 

I still don't get why he hasn't run off with a Russian porn star. Because to Russian girls he could work at McDonald's and be rich. 



chomps1211 said:


> ...that means _YOU_ must be rich!!!  :eusa_clap:


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## BigmountainVMD (Oct 9, 2011)

OP. Just read this. Awesome article.

Hot? Skilled? Hot and Skilled?!?!


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## Bones (Feb 24, 2008)

Jed said:


> There are many ways to get educated these days and as I said already, college is one of many options (and in many cases where a degree isn't required for a career, college is often one of the worst options to choose, especially if you have an option for real world experience).


Indeed there are substitutes for a college education, but they are just that: substitutes. And yes, there are a variety of career choices that don't require a college education, but there are no careers where college education is a detriment.

If you are young, have the means and no burning desire to follow a particular non-college education path (like the trades), then college is never a bad choice. 

At the moment, I work in a place that doesn't require a college education to enter. In fact, you can make a nice career for yourself if you're smart and hard-working. But there is a ceiling beyond which you can't advance without a degree.


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## wrathfuldeity (Oct 5, 2007)

BigmountainVMD said:


> OP. Just read this. Awesome article.
> 
> Hot? Skilled? Hot and Skilled?!?!


:thumbsup: Fortunately more gals are do it.


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## jjz (Feb 14, 2012)

EDITED Post as to not relight an old arguments flame.


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## destroy (Dec 16, 2012)

Almost knew this was a troll before I even opened the thread.

I'd argue that if you're skilled and motivated, there are jobs in trades/industrial work in Canada that pay hundreds of thousands a year. Hell, a guy I work with - his dad sells cars (mostly trucks ) in oil country for 400k /yr. Not a lot of degrees can get you those kinds of opportunities...

College degree would definitely be a disadvantage at my job. I know all kindsa book learnin' words that could get a fella in trouble! :yahoo:


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## Bones (Feb 24, 2008)

destroy said:


> I'd argue that if you're skilled and motivated, there are jobs in trades/industrial work in Canada that pay hundreds of thousands a year.


There certainly are, as long as you have the education (training) and have done the apprenticeship to gain the skills. In short, an education. Otherwise, you're just a laborer. which is a pretty feast and famine existence. And yes, oil country is hot right now but it won't be forever, just like coal country or the construction industry.

The only problem with the trades is that they require strong motivation, a long apprenticeship and they're very specialized. If you know that's what you want, then go for it. But don't pretend that those guys with specialized skills making the big $$ in the trades didn't read textbooks, take classes and train for all kinds of certifications.

If you know what you want, then go for it. But if you don't know what you want and you have the means, then a college education is a good choice. But any way you slice it, you owe it to yourself to get some kind of education. and it gets harder to do as you get older.


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## EastCoastChris (Feb 24, 2013)

It is very hard for women to get jobs in the trades. There's only so many admin jobs to go around and women just do not get hired (regardless of eeoc laws) in building trades or oil fields etc. Do you want to go all girl power campaign and be the girl that pushes that envelope and lands the 80k a year pipeline job? Hey if you do...you have my blessing and full support. But most people want a career - not a crusade. 

And seriously...that "Hot or Skilled" article is STILL pushing the "object of desire" angle. At least its honest by saying if you are a girl and want to go pro in sports... the reality is that even if you play the "strong woman, girl power, hang with the boys" card you are still selling sex. You have to because thats what people are buying. Even though the article says "only play sexy if you are ok with that" it means 16 year old boys who get mom and dad to buy them burton shit want to see you kick out some spins...in a crop top and with your makeup done right. When is this shit ever going to get old enough to go away for good? That's what I'd like to see.

I'm in my 30s and it depresses me that all that shit I hated as a younger girl is still around both in boarding culture and in pro sports in general. 

When are are women going to show themselves and their skills WITHOUT calling themselves a "snowbunny?" Ugh. 

/endfeministrant


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## SnowBunny39 (Nov 23, 2013)

timmytard said:


> If you're a cutie,:hope: I say go for it.:thumbsup:
> 
> If you're kinda yucky, the schoolin' is probably the better choice
> 
> ...


Haha kinda made me giggle!!


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## SnowBunny39 (Nov 23, 2013)

*Hahaha*



ridinbend said:


> Nice answer. You forgot to tell her she should only weigh 90lbs or else hang herself. Oh yeah anorexia is cool too. Fucking dick.


Hahaha thanks for defending me! Nice to know people still care. I am actually working out hard to get into the best shape of my life. I'm 5'0 and 105 lbs. looking to gain some muscle!!


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## poutanen (Dec 22, 2011)

SnowBunny39 said:


> Haha kinda made me giggle!!


:blink:

The OP lives and breathes!?! :dizzy:

I hope you read through this thread and get the advice you were looking for. There's actually some good advice mixed in there somewhere...


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## Argo (Feb 25, 2010)

Pictures are proof though.....


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## Jed (May 11, 2011)

Yeah I'm kinda surprised, I thought she was long gone, never to return.

*Off topic - don't read if you have no interest in lengthy break downs of how broken our college system is:*

As far as college goes, I think it's becoming more and more niche of a requirement for job progression these days in favour of real world experience and in so many cases it just leads to stupid debt + 4 years of your life wasted for a degree you don't use.

The problem with weighing the benefits of a college degree is people don't count the opportunity cost to get that degree. They only go for the marketed "No degree vs. degree" comparison that colleges love to tell everyone.

If you weigh up no college degree vs. a college degree, of course the college degree wins, this is called 'anchoring' in marketing and it's something colleges perfected in their marketing strategies. It's similar to how you might see a $30k car as expensive, but then I put it next to a $500k aston martin and suddenly the $30k car doesn't seem as as expensive because we're anchoring your perception to the more expensive product.

Anyhow, anchoring aside, if you weigh up college vs. alternatives to college, it suddenly becomes a lot less clear of a life choice. You have to remember that college costs $30-50k+ and 4 years of your time and in many degrees you don't really increase your job prospects by that much (that's why so many people with degrees are working in crummy jobs to pay off their debt).

I can think of a lot better ways to increase my earning power, get real world job experience and have better job prospects if you give me $30-50k and 4 years of time. It just wouldn't be as socially acceptable as 'I'm going to college!', when in reality what most kids are doing in college is drinking a lot and hiding from the real world for 4 years.

Heck, I'm not even sure if I'd call college the safe choice anymore with how stupidly useless a lot of degrees are becoming. I'd actually rate moving to Australia for a year and working any minimum wage job there as safer than just going to a college and spending $10k+ per year when you don't have any better idea of what you want to be doing.

At least in Australia you'd be earning a solid income (our minimum wage is high, you'll get $35k or so or even 40k+ if you work sales with decent commission at minimum wage) then you can always go to college later when you have more focus and know exactly what you want and why you want it.

And that's just one option. If you're a self starter you could start a small company for $30-50k and that would teach you a heck of a lot more than most college degrees will and if you succeed you become your own boss.

There are so many options to succeed in life outside of college. Not saying it's always a bad option, but with many degrees it's becoming more of a 'you should go to college because you should' instead of offering real world value and reasons to go to college.


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## ridinbend (Aug 2, 2012)

Jed said:


> Yeah I'm kinda surprised, I thought she was long gone, never to return.
> 
> *Off topic - don't read if you have no interest in lengthy break downs of how broken our college system is:*
> 
> ...




Despite getting a degree in sociology and inheriting significant debt, I wouldn't change a thing. I had no concept of the processes in society at 18. The exposure and understanding I learned in my general ed. and soc. Classes gave me a perspective to view and understand how life works. I'm grateful for the opportunity and encourage people to at least take some classes at a junior college if possible. I agree experience is pivotal for success, but understanding your options and having direction will lead to long term success.


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## Jed (May 11, 2011)

ridinbend said:


> Despite getting a degree in sociology and inheriting significant debt, I wouldn't change a thing. I had no concept of the processes in society at 18. The exposure and understanding I learned in my general ed. and soc. Classes gave me a perspective to view and understand how life works. I'm grateful for the opportunity and encourage people to at least take some classes at a junior college if possible. I agree experience is pivotal for success, but understanding your options and having direction will lead to long term success.


The thing is a lot of classes can be done online now (and if you need the 'social' experience there are MANY ways to replicate that outside of college). The same skills you learnt in college can be learnt and replicate in the real world for a fraction of the cost of college.

I think learning and studying something you enjoy and are interested in is a beautiful thing and it sounds like you did just that in college, but it's just an inefficient and expensive way to do things with the current college system.

Add in the fact that high end colleges like Harvard (or was it Stanford?) are offering some of their courses for free online or the fact that you can take small classes on many interesting topics from CEOs, writers etc. on places like skillshare.com and it makes you really question the real world value of college.

The question I ask to people who get value from college is this: "If you could get the same experience, same training and same social experience and interactions as you did in college for a fraction of the cost and not go into massive debt, would you?"

College as an idea is great. People should learn and study topics they love. However, in reality and in execution, it's become a bloated, horribly expensive way to get experience and learn.


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## ridinbend (Aug 2, 2012)

Jed said:


> The thing is a lot of classes can be done online now (and if you need the 'social' experience there are MANY ways to replicate that outside of college). The same skills you learnt in college can be learnt and replicate in the real world for a fraction of the cost of college.
> 
> I think learning and studying something you enjoy and are interested in is a beautiful thing and it sounds like you did just that in college, but it's just an inefficient and expensive way to do things with the current college system.
> 
> ...


The majority of my peers in the city I grew up in had no perspective or exposure when I graduated high school. And mind you that was 14 years ago. The internet has changed things a lot since then. It's hard to grasp what it would be like now to be an 18yr old graduate.


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## Bones (Feb 24, 2008)

Jed said:


> As far as college goes, I think it's becoming more and more niche of a requirement for job progression these days in favour of real world experience


While there is no doubt that experience is an important factor in career progression, ongoing studies show that the order of rank between median incomes ranked by education levels has not changed in decades. The differences between some of the income levels has changed. The gap between a Master's degree and a professional degree has narrowed slightly, but the gap between the "some college" education level and an associate's degree has increased steadily since the '90's. 




Jed said:


> At least in Australia you'd be earning a solid income (our minimum wage is high, you'll get $35k or so or even 40k+ if you work sales with decent commission at minimum wage) then you can always go to college later when you have more focus and know exactly what you want and why you want it.


I'd agree that this is an excellent plan. Sadly, the vast majority skip the "get an education later when you know what you want to do" part.



Jed said:


> And that's just one option. If you're a self starter you could start a small company for $30-50k and that would teach you a heck of a lot more than most college degrees will and if you succeed you become your own boss.


Been there, done that for 17 years. Sadly, most employers really don't care about how impressive it is that you built a business. They want to see the skills you've acquired and they want proof that you've acquired them (certifications, transcripts, designations, awards, etc.)


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## Bones (Feb 24, 2008)

Jed said:


> Y
> I can think of a lot better ways to increase my earning power, get real world job experience and have better job prospects if you give me $30-50k and 4 years of time.


Then you need to write a book. You will sell millions of copies.


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## Jed (May 11, 2011)

Bones said:


> While there is no doubt that experience is an important factor in career progression, ongoing studies show that the order of rank between median incomes ranked by education levels has not changed in decades. The differences between some of the income levels has changed. The gap between a Master's degree and a professional degree has narrowed slightly, but the gap between the "some college" education level and an associate's degree has increased steadily since the '90's.


The issue with that statistic (which colleges LOVE) is that we have no system to measure what happens to the motivated people who don't get college education or don't get extra education beyond their first degree. Instead we're tracking a certain type of person who would be interested in college+education+career advancement vs those not as interested.

Motivated, hard working people are more likely to go to college and get more degrees and get more education. Those same motivated people earn more money on a whole.

It's one of those things where we don't track what happens to equally motivated people who don't go to college and instead we track less motivated people and compare them to college/education focused people who are already more likely to earn more money.

The more fair statistic would be to take equally motivated, hard working, smart people and send one batch to college and one batch to spend the same time+money on other means of improving their earning power and see the difference then, but of course colleges don't track that statistic because it wouldn't be as good as their favourite 'if you go to college you earn more money - look at the proof in this stat!' line.



Bones said:


> Been there, done that for 17 years. Sadly, most employers really don't care about how impressive it is that you built a business. They want to see the skills you've acquired and they want proof that you've acquired them (certifications, transcripts, designations, awards, etc.)


It's a lot in how you sell yourself and your skills, at least that's what I've found back when I needed to work for others or interview for jobs without any college education.

The ability to sell yourself and your skills is as important, if not more important than your actual experience... which is actually why I think it's a shame more colleges don't teach more real world applicable skills like intelligent salesmanship and negotiation, copywriting etc. etc. to their students so they become good salespeople and stop sucking at in-person interviews and producing boring cover letters that look like everyone else's boring cover letters.

When the college system produces people who are clones of each other, it's no wonder people trying to climb the ladder have to get that extra piece of paper, it's the only way they're different from every other employee in the eyes of the people looking over 5000 identical job applications.

There's a very good book by Daniel Pink - 'To sell is human' - which goes over the need for everyone to learn sales since basically everyone needs it, but too many people suck at it. You'll probably enjoy his books if you studied sociology, it's a lot of psychology related findings that related to business.



Bones said:


> Then you need to write a book. You will sell millions of copies.


What I know is already public knowledge, it's nothing any solid entrepreneur can't tell you and it's nothing that hasn't said a million times in many other books. People just don't want to do it because most people are scared of risk and they want to do what everyone else is doing, instead of forging their own path, even if it is the smarter option.

People run from risk, even if the reality is that they already take a huge risk by going to college.

If anything the real book that should be written is the one that gets people to stop being pussies and stop giving up as soon as trying to reach their dreams gets a little scary and hard. It'll be called 'Stop Being A Damn Pussy And Man Up' and it shall sell millions on the title alone.


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## Bones (Feb 24, 2008)

Jed said:


> Instead we're tracking a certain type of person who would be interested in college+education+career advancement vs those not as interested.


Actually, the statistics come from census information and reflect the population as a whole, they're not tracking any particular variable beyond what is stated. There is no reason to believe that motivation levels at any education level deviate from the population as a whole Most studies of motivation/ambition use desire for a higher income as their indicator. Those that use self-assessed happiness/quality of life questions generally return results that correspond closely with income and education level.



Jed said:


> Motivated, hard working people are more likely to go to college and get more degrees and get more education. Those same motivated people earn more money on a whole.


As I said, income closely follows education level.



Jed said:


> It's one of those things where we don't track what happens to equally motivated people who don't go to college and instead we track less motivated people and compare them to college/education focused people


Actually quite a number of countries track perceived quality of life, education level and incomes thru their statistical agencies. Most broad-based sociological data is produced by statistical agencies and used by colleges, not the other way around.



Jed said:


> It's a lot in how you sell yourself and your skills, at least that's what I've found back when I needed to work for others or interview for jobs without any college education.


If you can get to the interview stage, then sales skills are a big advantage. Getting to the interview stage is based on proof.



Jed said:


> What I know is already public knowledge, it's nothing any solid entrepreneur can't tell you and it's nothing that hasn't said a million times in many other books.


Yes, I know. I was a solid entrepreneur. Motivation among my staff was a non-factor: if you're not motivated, you're gone. The only determining factor was unique skills and results. Skills get you the interview opportunity with me because skills make me money but cost me money to develop in-house. If I had a smaller need for a skill set, I paid for staff training for the best employee to use them. If I had a larger need, I hired already skilled people. On the rare occasion when I took a chance on an unskilled, but apparently motivated worker, I gave them 3 months to demonstrate that their motivation was going turn into something I could use. 

But motivation without an education is probably the toughest way to start getting anywhere.


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## Jed (May 11, 2011)

Maybe I'm not being clear since I'm not really talking about motivation and how it's linked to earning power... that's a whole different topic. I was just trying to explain how the statistic itself is broken by using motivation as a factor.

It's not so much that the stat trackers are specifically going out and saying "okay we're going to track motivated people only and skew the results!" Of course not. They get data from the whole population.

What's broken is that this statistic will always favour college in a good light because college and education will naturally attract the type of person who is more likely to be the type of person who has qualities to earn more income.

The statistic in itself is flawed because the very people who are the type who will seek higher income, want to improve quality of life etc. are more likely to go to college. So regardless of anything else, you already have the type of person who will earn more end up ticking the 'college' box because that's the typical accepted path for them and most people will choose the standard path.

The real stat isn't whether people with college degrees earn more on average, but rather, is college the best option for those people and would they have been as successful without college if they picked another path? I'd bet a lot of them would do great and still earn higher incomes if you gave them $30-50k and said you have 4 years to work your butt off, learn, practice whatever you want outside of college with the goal of increasing your annual income. Unfortunately many of them don't realize this is an option or are too scared to try it.

Also I've never been in disagreement with skill = more career options etc. I think you should develop skills. You should educate yourself. You should learn, get results, improve etc. I'm 100% with you there.

I only disagree on means of education. When methods of educating yourself better than a college student are available online for far less and are far more focused on real world applicable skills, college starts being a crummy option unless you want to become a doctor or lawyer or something along those career degree lines.

For example, I learnt my media buying skills for $99 in a course from some black hat guys who ended up teaching the same lessons at Baylor university, one of the top entreprenership uni's and their students were paying far more just to 'officially' learn the same thing in college and they got their classes months after guys like me already learnt it and implemented it in the real world with real results.

College is often insanely inefficient and overpriced like that and all you pay for is the piece of paper when you could have been implementing those lessons in real life and getting results to show and getting on the job learning. That's before we even get into the fact that many people with college degrees end up not even using their degree and in heavy debt.


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## Bones (Feb 24, 2008)

Jed said:


> What's broken is that this statistic will always favour college in a good light because college and education will naturally attract the type of person who is more likely to be the type of person who has qualities to earn more income.
> 
> The statistic in itself is flawed because the very people who are the type who will seek higher income, want to improve quality of life etc. are more likely to go to college


Then you will need to produce some measure of "motivation" aside from income since the ability to earn more is quite demonstrably linked to education. Your argument appears to be that motivation is more linked to income than education because motivated people are more naturally attracted to education so they make more money. That is a classic vicious circle illogical argument.




Jed said:


> The real stat isn't whether people with college degrees earn more on average, but rather, is college the best option for those people and would they have been as successful without college if they picked another path?


And yet, the studies show, constantly and consistently, that, on average, they do not 




Jed said:


> I'd bet a lot of them would do great and still earn higher incomes if you gave them $30-50k and said you have 4 years to work your butt off, learn, practice whatever you want outside of college with the goal of increasing your annual income.


And yet the income gap between the lower ranks of education continues to increase. Unless you're arguing that the lesser educated are also the lesser motivated which I do not believe you are. 

There are large numbers of people who have worked their butts off for a lot longer than 4 years and are highly motivated by their desire to provide a better life for their kids, but the gap still grows.

Until they become sufficiently motivated to increase their education level.





Jed said:


> For example, I learnt my media buying skills for $99 in a course from some black hat guys who ended up teaching the same lessons at Baylor university, one of the top entreprenership uni's and their students were paying far more just to 'officially' learn the same thing in college and they got their classes months after guys like me already learnt it and implemented it in the real world with real results.
> 
> College is often insanely inefficient and overpriced like that and all you pay for is the piece of paper when you could have been implementing those lessons in real life and getting results to show and getting on the job learning.


Until that piece of paper and their work experience gets them that management job for which you're not qualified because you don't have that useless piece of paper.


There is no better proven way of increasing your odds of achieving a higher income and a better quality of life than an education. It is by no means a certainty, but the odds are much better than not having an education.


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## destroy (Dec 16, 2012)

Bones said:


> There certainly are, as long as you have the education (training) and have done the apprenticeship to gain the skills. In short, an education. Otherwise, you're just a laborer. which is a pretty feast and famine existence. And yes, oil country is hot right now but it won't be forever, just like coal country or the construction industry.
> 
> The only problem with the trades is that they require strong motivation, a long apprenticeship and they're very specialized. If you know that's what you want, then go for it. But don't pretend that those guys with specialized skills making the big $$ in the trades didn't read textbooks, take classes and train for all kinds of certifications.
> 
> If you know what you want, then go for it. But if you don't know what you want and you have the means, then a college education is a good choice. But any way you slice it, you owe it to yourself to get some kind of education. and it gets harder to do as you get older.


The average apprenticeship is as long as the average time it takes to get a basic degree - 4 years. During which you'll make 70% of your journeyman's wage, rather than going into debt. The average time spent in school during that time - maybe 6 months total? Also during which, you'll be getting paid (from various sources). The demand for trades will only increase in the next 20 years, I hate to say it. So, yes it takes motivation and hard work, but isn't that the point? There's lots of ways to make a living, I'm just providing an example of one that doesn't require a traditional educational yet is somewhat only limited by your ambition and dedication. I've known lots of young entrepreneurs working from their computers who make six figures too. Isn't one of the richest kids in the world a dropout?

As for women in trades - it's certainly difficult, but I know some. I know a girl a year older than me who could honestly be a model she's so gorgeous and she's done all the camp work up north and everything. She's a boilermaker by trade but I don't know how much work she does now that she's a young mother.

Ultimately women and men face different and unique challenges in their careers. Some are afforded some opportunities while others are not, both ways on both sides.


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## blondieyo (Jun 12, 2011)

If I was you I'd keep snowboarding and doing whatever you can to progress. You're young which means you'll bounce back quicker from injuries etc and you can always get further education later in life if you're not where you want to be in a certain time.
On the flip side what you could do is get a coin and flip it with one side for each. Whatever side you hope for whilst it's in the air is the side i'd be going for!


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## Jed (May 11, 2011)

Bones said:


> Then you will need to produce some measure of "motivation" aside from income since the ability to earn more is quite demonstrably linked to education. Your argument appears to be that motivation is more linked to income than education because motivated people are more naturally attracted to education so they make more money. That is a classic vicious circle illogical argument.


We're not quite seeing eye to eye here on this. For whatever reason maybe I'm not explaining it properly, but I'm not just talking about motivation which you seem to have focused on for some reason.

Maybe this will make more sense (I didn't write this - this is from James Altucher, a VC and investor/entrepreneur):

College graduates make much more money than non-college graduates. Clearly anyone who states this has failed “Statistics 101” in college. We might know correlation but we don’t know cause-and-effect here. Since our generation (post-baby boomer) basically everyone goes to college except people who absolutely failed high school, then of course it makes sense that achievement-minded people make more money than individuals who are not achievement-oriented.

A better statistical study, which nobody has done, is take 2000 people who got accepted to Harvard 20 years ago, and randomly force 1000 of them to not go to college. Then, at the end of 20 years to see who made more money. My guess is that the 1000 who didn’t go to Harvard would’ve made more money. They would’ve been thrown out of the nest to learn how to fly that much earlier and a 5 year head start would’ve made enormous difference (I say 5 years because thats the average amount of time it takes to finish college. Not 4, as many think).



Bones said:


> There is no better proven way of increasing your odds of achieving a higher income and a better quality of life than an education. It is by no means a certainty, but the odds are much better than not having an education.


We'll have to agree to disagree here. I'd say you're half right because if this statement was made 10 years ago, it would probably be true (excluding if you started a company during the dot com boom and got out before it crashed), but times change in 10 years. I'm not saying all college is bad or even education is bad as I've said 100 times. Education IS the key to higher income and quality of life. However, I don't agree that college is the most effective solution.

I'm saying colleges have grown to become bloated and horribly ineffective in the face of many other options and other options are now superior, such as trades as already mentioned or even starting your own business. I mean, have you seen how crazy the tuitions have grown compared to relative income? It's absurd, especially when you think about how only about 1/3 of people end up using their degrees for anything and the other 2/3 end up starting over from scratch in an unrelated career with no degree.

If you can sit there and say that if I gave you $30-$50k and 4 years of time and told you to find the best method to educate yourself and increase your skill in an area/areas to earn a higher income, and you'd say "College is the best choice here!", I'd have to seriously question whether you work for a college in their marketing department.

I don't know if maybe you were more of a traditional pre-online period entrepreneur or why we're not seeing the eye to eye here, but remember, we're living in a world right now where the opportunity to earn a living has been turned upside down by the internet and it no longer requires a huge investment to start your own company. You can do that with a few hundreds dollars and a domain name and do it with very low risk to yourself and get amazing real life experience.

Isn't it just a little bit crazy that random guys like me can start up an online based company for a few hundred dollars, create $100-200 online information products with 95% profit margins and digital distribution and pay $0.05 cents per click in ads to drive traffic to those products and learn how to do all of that online for a fraction of the cost and time of a college education, all while on vacation in Asia? Yet that's the world we live in and opportunities like this didn't exist for you or me or anyone else 10 years ago, they're recent developments that result from the internet changing everything.

And that's just one option. There are a billion more like that out there that didn't exist 10 years ago, but now exist because the internet has levelled the playing field and now anyone can educate and learn skills outside of college.

Right now I see time as more of the limiting factor than anything else. The $30k-50k for college is crazy, but I see the 4 years of life focused on the wrong thing as the craziest part. Man with 4 years you can do so much in your life and learn so much if you aren't tied down to the horribly bloated schooling system and actually get out there and learn.

I'm definitely with Seth Godin here on how broken schooling and college is:






At the end of the day, quality of life and job happiness is just as important as the actual income as well (if not far more important), and when I can sit here typing this from an office in Korea, while planning a vacation to Singapore next week, then 2 weeks in Japan and Hong Kong, then 6 months in Canada and still collect a 6 figure income while doing all of that, I question whether my friends who went to college and went the traditional corporate ladder route of developing income are really better off when most of them haven't even paid off their debt yet.


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## Bones (Feb 24, 2008)

Jed said:


> reason.
> 
> Maybe this will make more sense (I didn't write this - this is from James Altucher, a VC and investor/entrepreneur):
> 
> ...


Clearly, Mr.Altucher has never taken Stats 101, let alone passed it. If he had, then he would have titled his book "How to become a Statistical Outlier".

One is left to wonder why he fails to explain why the vast majority of people who leave the nest with a 5 year headstart fail to become successful entrepreneurs. Obviously, those numerous failures DID NOT BUY HIS BOOK!

The lack of a study to prove that guess is not proof that your guess is correct. The existence of outliers is not proof either. I guess that most of those people who passed on Harvard and went on to fame and fortune were predominently left handed and there's no study to prove otherwise.



Jed said:


> ...other options are now superior, such as trades as already mentioned or even starting your own business.


80% of new businesses fail in the first 2 years, hardly a superior option.

The trades, on the other hand, do have a proven track record and always have.



Jed said:


> I don't know if maybe you were more of a traditional pre-online period entrepreneur or why we're not seeing the eye to eye here, but remember, we're living in a world right now where the opportunity to earn a living has been turned upside down by the internet and it no longer requires a huge investment to start your own company. You can do that with a few hundreds dollars and a domain name and do it with very low risk to yourself and get amazing real life experience.


There have always been new methods to use in entrepreneurship. Internet entrepreneurship is less capital intensive than brinks and mortar, but the failure rates are astronomical. Much, much higher than the failure rate of college degrees. Mail order worked for a number of entrepreneurs as well as did railway construction, software design, etc. They all worked....for a small percentage of the people who tried. 


Should colleges improve their curriculum and update their teaching methods? Yes.

Are there are other methods to learn skills and earn a higher income? Yes, there always have been.

Do any of these methods have a better track record of success compared to higher education? Despite some spectacular and well known positive outliers, unfortunately no.


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## Jed (May 11, 2011)

Bones said:


> Clearly, Mr.Altucher has never taken Stats 101, let alone passed it. If he had, then he would have titled his book "How to become a Statistical Outlier".
> 
> One is left to wonder why he fails to explain why the vast majority of people who leave the nest with a 5 year headstart fail to become successful entrepreneurs. Obviously, those numerous failures DID NOT BUY HIS BOOK!
> 
> ...


Yes we don't have the stats and as you said it's not evidence for or against it. Yes we are guessing, but that doesn't make the old 'college degree = increased income' any more of a useful statistic, it just means that we still don't know crap and that old college statistic doesn't really tell us much because of how it's set up. That's the only point I was trying to make in regards to that statistic.

I don't see why you keep putting my stance as some extreme 'this it the magical path to all success and it's easy!' - that's not what I'm saying at all.

Yes most businesses fail. I don't think anyone would debate that most business fail within the first 2 years, every entrepreneur knows that and has probably experienced it at least once.

However, the beauty of failing at many of these new forms of business is that the risk is low online. You lose jack all in time and money and gain experience every time. You can fail quickly, get back up and try again with minimal risk. Never before has the barrier of entry and risk been so low.

It's not like brick and mortar where you fail and you're down your entire huge investment and screwed for ages, it's more like you fail and say "oh well, there goes a couple hundred dollars and a couple weeks of time, let's try again now with something else using the experience I've gained so far."

Entrepreneurship isn't some magic bullet that will solve all issues of the world... no. It's not magic, it's still hard work, it's still not easy and people still fail. However, when compared to the failing college system, it's becoming a very very interesting alternative, especially when the barrier for entry and consequences of risk are getting lower.

I'm not saying that the other paths outside of college are a magic road to success and that you will become the outlier, merely that other paths like trades or business or free lance work in one of many emerging mobile fields are becoming better alternatives while college is becoming increasingly overpriced and bloated.

If the AVERAGE end result of many college students is they end up on the other side with minimal increase in job possibilities, high debt and 2/3 don't even end up using their degree vs. the other options... it doesn't really take much success in one of the other routes to come up ahead of the average college graduate.

You don't need to be a big outlier or big success when the average prospects after college suck like they do now. Just doing average in one of the other paths already puts you ahead of the average college graduate that comes out with debt and a degree they won't use.


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## Bones (Feb 24, 2008)

Jed said:


> Yes we don't have the stats and as you said it's not evidence for or against it. Yes we are guessing, but that doesn't make the old 'college degree = increased income' any more of a useful statistic,


Actually, the lack of any empirical evidence to the contrary only serves to make the empirical evidence that does exist more relevant, not less. 

Entrepreneurship and alternative learning methods are not new. The internet is not new. The only constant is change.

If, as you suggest, alternative career education strategies are more successful than the traditional approach, then why does the income gap between the more traditionally educated and the less traditionally educated continue to grow and not shrink?

Internet Entrepreneurship has been around for at least 2 decades and there are a lot of success stories (and certainly larger numbers of failures that you never hear about) Why is it that it has had absolutely no impact on the income of the less educated?

The simple truth is that alternate career education strategies work only for a few, and indeed spectacularly so for them, but still only a few. 


And just to be clear, the "trades" is a traditional education strategy, you may get paid during your apprenticeship, but you are still "training". Of course, if you're not in an apprenticeship program, then you merely work in the trade which would not be classified as an education., ie a plumber's assistant is not necessarily an apprentice and the time spent assisting would not count as education although you would probably learn stuff.



> I don't see why you keep putting my stance as some extreme 'this it the magical path to all success and it's easy!' - that's not what I'm saying at all.


I am taking issue with your argument that alternate education strategies are a substitute for, nay even superior to, traditional education approaches without presenting one shred of empirical evidence to support that argument. Your evidence seem to consist of few anecedotal personal references and a "guess" that it has something to do with motivation.

Are there less-educated successful people? There always have been and there always will be.
Are there a statistically significantly large number of less-educated successful people? No


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## Jed (May 11, 2011)

Bones said:


> If, as you suggest, alternative career education strategies are more successful than the traditional approach, then why does the income gap between the more traditionally educated and the less traditionally educated continue to grow and not shrink?


Because college has become more of a norm (how many parents consider college optional for their kids vs. 10 years ago?) and there are other factors affecting the gap between the rich and the poor besides college education?

Unless you're suggesting that college is the one major reason for the gap between the rich and the poor and not one of the very big economical problems such as tax laws and business rules favouring the rich more than ever in history.

Also you keep bringing up the same statistic that as I've already mentioned doesn't show cause/effect in college=more money. You can keep saying it over and over, but it doesn't change that fact.



Bones said:


> Internet Entrepreneurship has been around for at least 2 decades and there are a lot of success stories (and certainly larger numbers of failures that you never hear about) Why is it that it has had absolutely no impact on the income of the less educated?


Not the type of internet entrepreneurship that's around today. You may be a little out of the loop on this one, but business has completely changed online in the last 10 years and to say that entrepreneurship is the same as 20 years ago is ridiculous.

Heck how long has google even been mainstream? 10-12 years? I think I started using it around 2000? The barrier to entry online back then was completely different because the internet has made it so little guys can start businesses without huge investments or huge effort even.

Why you ask? Well look at what it cost to start a business online back then or even register a domain name.

Today, if I wanted to start a business, I could spend $10 on a domain name and use one of many business registration services online to get my business registered for a couple hundred dollars.

Then I could set up credit payment processing gateways through paypal for $35 a month, I could integrate that with a shopping cart on 1shoppingcart.com for $99 a month, I can create a membership site with Wishlist Member for $99 using wordpress and if I need custom code work done I can hire someone for under $25 an hour on elance.com.

Oh and if you don't know how to do any of that there are 1000s of websites with easy tutorials to follow that walk you through all of that, none of which existed 10 years ago and you don't have to touch a single line of computer code.

How much of what I just mentioned was easy or cheap to do 10 or 20 years ago? None. You had to jump through hoops just to get a website set up back in 2000 and it looked like crap and if you wanted custom coding like that you better be ready to hiring a full time programmer. Even just registering a website back then cost 10 times more and wasn't as simple as going on godaddy.com like it is today.

I can't believe you actually think entrepreneurship is anything like it was 20 years ago (or even 10 years ago). We live in a very, very favourable age for entrepreneurs right now and it has never been this easy to connect to so many people and get so many things done so easily thanks to the internet and you don't need programming background to do any of it.

There's a big difference between that vs. internet entrepreneurs back in 2000.

Your argument right now seems to be "the internet hasn't changed things that much." Do you realize how insane that sounds or do you really believe that the internet hasn't changed the way people do things in a way that we've never seen before.

My profession didn't even really exist 10 years ago.



Bones said:


> Why is it that it has had absolutely no impact on the income of the less educated?


Because as has been mentioned already you keep using this income gap thing as your entire basis for college being superior when we've already gone over cause-effect and why your statistic really just shows that college has become a 'norm' and therefore most achievement focused people go to college.

Cause-effect is as important as the actual statistic itself, and we've already gone over how this income statistic doesn't show cause-effect.



Bones said:


> I am taking issue with your argument that alternate education strategies are a substitute for, nay even superior to, traditional education approaches without presenting one shred of empirical evidence to support that argument. Your evidence seem to consist of few anecedotal personal references and a "guess" that it has something to do with motivation.


At some point people have to let go. We both know the current education system is broken as all hell and bloated and inefficient.

Just because MORE people are using traditional means of gaining an income, does not mean that the statistic itself is proof that it's the best. That just means that method of education has become more and more mainstream and standard.

Politicians right now have more power than ever. Does that means politicians are better than ever? I don't think so. Cause-effect.

I mean look at the average results for a college graduate. As I've already mentioned, we know that 2/3 of people don't even use their degree and just go to college and spend $30-50k because it's the norm.

Internet entrepreneurship or entrepreneurship in general is a very new concept to the public. It may not be a new idea, but this is the first time in history it's so assessable and low risk to do it. And heck, I'm not even saying everyone should start a business or become an entrepreneur, I'm saying get educated and don't just rely on just college for it because of how broken the current education system is right now.

You can learn a ton online for a very low price these days. And you can get experience and try things out for very low risk.

You have sites like skillshare.com where you can get lessons from CEO's and amazing writers for a low fee. You have sites like mixergy.com where you can learn entire business plans and methods that haven't even made it to college yet and you can do it all online for less then $50 a month. You have sites like khanacademy.com where they have entire courses online for free.

There's so much learning you can do right now and teach yourself that relying on a broken college system is kind of crazy, yet more people than ever are doing it because it's the norm and it's what their parents want.

College is becoming that thing you do just because everyone else is doing it and you have to do it too to keep up and that's becoming our entire basis for our college system. At what point do we stop forcing kids to learn something they have zero interest in doing purely to compete with other kids who spend 5 years learning something they have zero interest in doing when the end result is both gain very little real world skill in exchange for their 5 years?



Bones said:


> Are there less-educated successful people? There always have been and there always will be.
> Are there a statistically significantly large number of less-educated successful people? No


You keep bringing up number of successful people as if that's some stat to show the effectiveness of current education. No, that stat just shows that current college education has become more of a 'thing everyone does' than ever, yet more students then ever are graduating and not using their degrees.

Meh. Not even going to bother anymore. Not sure why I'm even debating this with you. You seem locked into traditional education and the old way to thinking and will defend it no matter how broken it is and keep using the same broken statistic as proof. Honestly I'm fine if you want to keep believing it.

Thankfully whether you or me do anything, I think things are slowly changing and alternative methods of education and careers are slowly becoming more acceptable and mainstream. I don't care if people become entrepreneurs or not (it's not for everyone) - heck if bad pitches on Shark Tank show us anything it's that certain people should definitely not be entrepreneurs.

I'm just thankful that more alternatives to our broken college system are slowly creeping their way into society. It'll just take time for this old way of thinking to slowly change and for people to realize there are many excellent paths in life outside of college.


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## t21 (Dec 29, 2010)

so....where is snowbunny39?:dunno:


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## Jed (May 11, 2011)

t21 said:


> so....where is snowbunny39?:dunno:


I just assume she read this ridiculous debate and just laughed at the weird older people debating online, then went snowboarding.


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## t21 (Dec 29, 2010)

Jed said:


> I just assume she read this ridiculous debate and just laughed at the weird older people debating online, then went snowboarding.


:laugh::laugh: it reminds me of when a good looking woman approaches two guys and asking for a direction, both men started to out smart each other trying to impress the lady. They were on to themselves that did not notice the lady just turned around and left. Way to go guys..:eusa_clap:


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## Fewdfreak (May 13, 2013)

t21 said:


> :laugh::laugh: it reminds me of when a good looking woman approaches two guys and asking for a direction, both men started to out smart each other trying to impress the lady. They were on to themselves that did not notice the lady just turned around and left. Way to go guys..:eusa_clap:


So true! That's why we try to avoid that very situation LOL. Hurray for smartphone apps--just another way technology has evolved in the last ten years but it seems men on the other hand have not...

Sent from Verticalsports.com Free App


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## poutanen (Dec 22, 2011)

Fewdfreak said:


> Hurray for smartphone apps--just another way technology has evolved in the last ten years but it seems men on the other hand have not..


We haven't evolved in the last 50,000 years! I still want to club some women over the head and drag them back to my cave!!! :yahoo:


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## Jed (May 11, 2011)

Fewdfreak said:


> So true! That's why we try to avoid that very situation LOL. Hurray for smartphone apps--just another way technology has evolved in the last ten years but it seems men on the other hand have not...
> 
> Sent from Verticalsports.com Free App


I flex my biceps when I point out directions to women. 80% of the time it works every time.


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## neni (Dec 24, 2012)

Jed said:


> I flex my biceps when I point out directions to women. 80% of the time it works every time.


This means 
A) in 20% she walks the opposite direction you're pointing or
B) in 20% you actually don't know the direction you're pointing or
C) in 20% the biceps won't flex?


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## Jed (May 11, 2011)

neni said:


> This means
> A) in 20% she walks the opposite direction you're pointing or
> B) in 20% you actually don't know the direction you're pointing or
> C) in 20% the biceps won't flex?


Sometimes a, sometimes b, but never c. The guns are always ready!


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