# Is Waist Width a Myth??????



## spino (Jan 8, 2013)

Luvmustycarpet1 said:


> im trying to figure if waist width is A myth or not because my buddy who is 6'1 175lbs size 12 boot rides a 153cm Gnu Space case that has i think a 25cm width with M/L Union Asadachi bindings and does not have a problem with any type of drag . clearly if you are going by the book that boards width is way too small for his size even his bindings are small ..even with myself im also a size 12boot and have a board with a 25.5cm waist where i have read that is good for boot sizes 9.5-10.5 i have no problems with any type of drag or any problems turning my board.. so is this a myth??? or people really do have problems with toe drag ??? :dunno::dunno::dunno::dunno:


in itself it is, i think.
many other variables in the equation:
- sidecut
- stance width/angles
- boots footprints...


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## Luvmustycarpet1 (Jan 31, 2014)

spino said:


> in itself it is, i think.
> many other variables in the equation:
> - sidecut
> - stance width/angles
> - boots footprints...



i agree that those variables will come into play but when its all pretty close but for a dude that is 6'1 with a size 12 boot riding on a small width board with m/l bindings which i think is a drastic difference in sizes ...i think that those variables will have a bigger role like with some like myself on a mid wide board being a size 12 n riding a width of 25.5 rather then his which is a much bigger difference


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## speedjason (May 2, 2013)

depending on a lot of things like snow, riding style, angles of the bindings.


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## redlude97 (Jan 9, 2008)

Toe drag really is only an issue if you ride powder or carve. Your friend probably doesn't do a lot of either which is why it isn't an issue


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## twowheeled (Jan 1, 2014)

yea.. i'm on a 9 boot M bindings and I'm dragging heel cup on a 25.5cm width board. It all depends how hard you carve, I don't ever drag occasionally in soft snow and laying trenches in the groomers.


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## ryannorthcott (Dec 17, 2010)

i have size 11s and a 260mm width board and if i really lean into a carve my toes will touch.. i have angles at +12, -9. 

I am quite conflicted because the board i am looking at has a 255mm width, and without having tested very many narrower boards i am uncertain as to how i will fare


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## ETM (Aug 11, 2009)

Waist width is critical, actually its not, the width at the inserts is critical.
The waist width is a product of width at inserts x sidecut radius. If you are looking for the widest board choose a wide waist width with a short eadius sidecut. This will provide maximum width at the inserts.
A board that is too wide is hard work to ride


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## booron (Mar 22, 2014)

redlude97 said:


> Toe drag really is only an issue if you ride powder or carve. Your friend probably doesn't do a lot of either which is why it isn't an issue


Or when you ride steeps...



ETM said:


> Waist width is critical, actually its not, the width at the inserts is critical.
> The waist width is a product of width at inserts x sidecut radius. If you are looking for the widest board choose a wide waist width with a short eadius sidecut. This will provide maximum width at the inserts.
> A board that is too wide is hard work to ride


Yep. Oddly enough, I've got a new Skunk Apes which despite the marketing is actually slightly narrower than the average wide board at the nose/tail. I was very worried about this, but there is so much anecdotal evidence of guys with 14/15 feet having no problems that I bit. I've not booted out on this thing yet, and I've been trying to figure out why. I'm kind of thinking it has something to do with the stiffness combined with the camber profile: i.e., that middle rocker really digs in and turns before the camber bits at the inserts lay down keeping your toes out of the snow...to a certain degree comparable to my old board at least. Again, hypothesis in progress.


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## poutanen (Dec 22, 2011)

How can "waist width" be a myth? If it were 10 cm, would you have toe drag issues? Yes... 

Why don't hardbooters use ~25 cm wide boards? Because their binding angles are in the 40-60 degree range.

I had toe drag with size 10 Shaun Palmers on a 24.5 cm wide Kemper Freestyle.

One of the nice things about the EST/ICS/Channel systems is that you can perfectly centre the boot over the board, so you've got equal maximum heel and toe side angles for the least about of drag possible.


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## mhaas (Nov 25, 2007)

Its only a myth if you don't mind toe drag. I have size 11.5 -12 feet and ride a 25 cm waist. I notice it when I make low deep turns but its not that big of a deal to me. Ive never lost control or anything due to toe drag. IM kinda like a 180 pound chick wearing size 4 jeans. It doesn't count as fat if the pants fit. I don't want to go with a wide board because it limits choices and its not a problem for me. Helps if you avoid hard snow as well.


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## behi (Feb 27, 2013)

Most people don't carve and use fairly low edge angles. Most people who do carve, only do shallow carves and don't use aggressive angles either (low g-force). In those conditions, a large amount of overhang isn't a big deal and even if you boot out, you can usually recover.

If you carve aggressively with high edge angles / g-force, boot out is a major issue and crashes can be quite nasty.

Where overhang is also annoying is set/crusted powder and slush.

(My board has a 28.6cm waist; boot size is 14.)


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## timmytard (Mar 19, 2009)

I like wide boards, I guess?
Some of my favorites were labeled as wides.

I only have size 9.5's but I like carving hard, steep, deep trenches.
Getting boot out sucks ass.
It only happens when you're in the deepest part of your carve, usually to get carves like that you gotta be goin' at a pretty good clip.

I don't see a big difference in the way wide boards ride though.
As long as you don't get boot out.

I bought a brand new Heritage 155 off some dude on Craigslist, I think I rode 20 times before I noticed it was a 56.:icon_scratch:

Odd, I thought was supposed to be a 55?
Turns out it was a Heritage X.

Without knowing I couldn't tell?
I have 2 Palmers that are really narrow compared to most of what I got.

I just have to be more precise with mounting the bindings.
But I don't get boot out on it & it ain't that much different than the wide.

I think the big myth is....
Wide boards are just too slow & cumbersome edge to edge.

People seem to think they can't even ride a wide board.
Like somehow 1 cm wider is magically going to make it ride like an actual door

I doubt most people could even tell the difference?


TT


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## ZeMax (Feb 21, 2014)

I really like Sean's point of view:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZtsIM88T6A0


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## poutanen (Dec 22, 2011)

timmytard said:


> I think the big myth is....
> Wide boards are just too slow & cumbersome edge to edge.
> 
> People seem to think they can't even ride a wide board.
> ...


My thoughts exactly, that said we shouldn't all go out and buy 30 cm wide boards, but my normal board width is about 25.0 cm, and I've recently had a couple wider boards out (Prior Khyber 165 with a 26.0 cm waist, and a Nitro Slash 166 with a 26.4 cm waist). They both felt fine to me, and I have size 8 feet.

I'm faster on the more narrow boards, but it doesn't mean the wider ones weren't fun!


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## ETM (Aug 11, 2009)

There is a limit though guys. I built a board with a 28cm waist and riding that was so much work , it really highlighted the effect that excessive board width has, and its all negative.


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## poutanen (Dec 22, 2011)

ETM said:


> There is a limit though guys. I built a board with a 28cm waist and riding that was so much work , it really highlighted the effect that excessive board width has, and its all negative.


Agreed, I just think sometimes we shy people with size 11 feet away from a wide board, when really they're likely fine on one...

We also tend to be short board happy here, a few of us like experimenting with longer boards, but it seems like once you hit the 160 mark people think the thing is going to blow up and ride you!


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## ETM (Aug 11, 2009)

Definately, not that I even look at board size threads lol but watching people talk about boardlength differences of a few cm like its like and death without even considering effective edge can be amusing.


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## booron (Mar 22, 2014)

behi said:


> (My board has a 28.6cm waist; boot size is 14.)


My God Man!? What board is this? A 190+?

I tore my tricep once booting out on a steep, a good three cartwheel tumble on hardpack, made me gun shy for like a year...


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## behi (Feb 27, 2013)

booron said:


> My God Man!? What board is this? A 190+?


LTB Big Twin 166XXW - 166cm with blunted nose/tail (the widest non-custom boards made).


> I tore my tricep once booting out on a steep, a good three cartwheel tumble on hardpack, made me gun shy for like a year...


After a couple of nasty boot outs with my previous setup, I stopped carving for a while...


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## booron (Mar 22, 2014)

behi said:


> LTB Big Twin 166XXW - 166cm with blunted nose/tail (the widest non-custom boards made).


Holy Hell!

1. Any chance you could give me a quick review of that thing?

And 2., I assume you're in UK/Europe(?), but If you are in the US, how did you get it?!


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## behi (Feb 27, 2013)

*LTB PTeam*



booron said:


> Holy Hell!
> And 2., I assume you're in UK/Europe(?), but If you are in the US, how did you get it?!


Yes, I'm in Europe (Alps). I blindly ordered online (very little info on the board). International shipping was actually free.


> 1. Any chance you could give me a quick review of that thing?


I'll compare the LTB PTeam to the Elan El Grande, the board I was using previously. The El Grande is a traditional mid+ stiff directional camber board with setback and taper. The bindings I used are the Rossignol HC Works (extremely stiff aluminum binding) and Burton Prophecy (2012 model).

The PTeam is a true twin CRC board with camber sections under each foot and rocker in the middle. The board is longitudinally a fair amount stiffer than the El Grande, while the rocker section is very soft. 

In terms of torsional stiffness, on a scale of 1-10, it's a 12 (by far the stiffest board I've laid my hands on). It twists maybe 1/4 compared to the El Grande (twisted with the same amount of force). This also means, foot steering is incredibly difficult - excellent dynamic riding technique is not optional.

The board is made with fiberglass, aramid and carbon fiber with an extra dampening layer under the edge. It's extremely well dampened. On a scale of 1-10, I would give the El Grande a 2, the PTeam gets a 10. The board is generally very stable, flat-based actually more so than the El Grande. I've done 70mph flat-based, the board was stable, no vibrations whatsoever. The PTeam cuts extremely well through chop, while still swallowing bumps much better than the softer El Grande.

Turn initiation with foot steering is rather sluggish - like driving an oil tanker. Once the board starts turning / gets on edge, it has a strong tendency for over-steering and requires very good front / back pressure distribution. However, with good dynamic technique the board is very nimble and I can turn the board as well as the El Grande; it just requires much better / cleaner technique and a bit more effort.

Float in powder is far better than the El Grande, even though the El Grande has setback and taper.

Edge hold is outstanding. Hardpack that feels like slippery ice with the El Grande rides like nice grippy packed powder with the PTeam.

So overall, the board is outstanding in the right hands. Someone who doesn't have very good dynamic technique will definitely struggle and hate the board.

(I've probably had 150+ days on the PTeam.)


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## Byrdbones (Apr 10, 2014)

I'm about 6'2 and weigh typically 166lbs, size 12 US boot. My current board is a Nitro T2 159 Regular, when carving it's never been an issue, my binding setup (basically ducky) does hang off a little, not a whole lot. 

However I hit a gnarly pole jam a few weeks ago at Mt. Snow. On the 3rd time, I came down with the nose pointed a little steep, it actually ended up catching and hitting directly on my left big toe, I mean hard. I thought for sure I'd broken my toe, or screwed up the nail bad. Ended up just being a really bad blood blister. It still looks bad, but I walk fine. I may lose the nail. 

No more regular boards for me... :thumbsdown: Think it's time to switch to wide.

So what you're saying does make sense, I can ride reg. boards and comfortably carve no problem. But, if you trench hard, or fall funny, you can definitely catch some snags with your toe or possibly heel edge.


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## ivangp (Mar 11, 2016)

behi, how much do you weight? What length was the El Grande you had before the LTB P-Team 166XXW?


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## poopresearch (Jan 2, 2016)

ivangp said:


> behi, how much do you weight? What length was the El Grande you had before the LTB P-Team 166XXW?


Dude, you raised this thread from the dead. Look at the date on the previous post.


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## deagol (Mar 26, 2014)

Luvmustycarpet1 said:


> …. people really do have problems with toe drag ???


I sure do, but only with my back foot. This is for two reasons:
Back foot is not at as steep an angle as front foot (around +10° for back compared to +27° to+ 30° for front)
The way the toe strap buckles are oriented on the outside of foot, the buckle lever is in the place where on a steep toeside turn, the lever handle catches in the snow and gets ripped backward.

Edit: didn't catch the original date of this post...


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## ivangp (Mar 11, 2016)

poopresearch said:


> Dude, you raised this thread from the dead. Look at the date on the previous post.


Is this a problem for you?


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## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

ivangp said:


> Is this a problem for you?


The poster who you were trying to get a response from hasn't posted in nearly two years. Your odds of getting a reply are practically zero.


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## ivangp (Mar 11, 2016)

OK. Thank you for the input! I saw the date of the trade before I posted. I had now way of knowing for how long this person has not posted here. It is worth trying. My chances may be slim, but are definitely above zero.


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## poopresearch (Jan 2, 2016)

If a thread is so old and the topic is interesting to you, it's best to just start a new thread.


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## poutanen (Dec 22, 2011)

ivangp said:


> My chances may be slim, but are definitely above zero.


Not to nit pick, but if the poster you replied to is dead, then your chances of getting a reply from them are exactly zero... >


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## Kenai (Dec 15, 2013)

ivangp said:


> OK. Thank you for the input! I saw the date of the trade before I posted. I had now way of knowing for how long this person has not posted here. It is worth trying. My chances may be slim, but are definitely above zero.


Actually, you do have a way of knowing. You can click on the person's name and find out the last time they accessed the site. For Behi the answer is: Last Activity: 04-24-2014 05:37 AM. As a general rule, many people (and I put myself at the top of that list) hate having old threads brought up this way.


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## Mizu Kuma (Apr 13, 2014)

poutanen said:


> Not to nit pick, but if the poster you replied to is dead, then your chances of getting a reply from them are exactly zero... >


Goods odds for a Haunting though?????


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## ivangp (Mar 11, 2016)

Guys, if you do not want old threads brought up, lock them! It is easy to do. If you hate something and do not do anything to change it, this is your problem. Your replays did not help with burying the tread even a single bit. Thank you for the tips on how to find certain info in the forum.


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## poopresearch (Jan 2, 2016)

ivangp said:


> Guys, if you do not want old threads brought up, lock them! It is easy to do. If you hate something and do not do anything to change it, this is your problem. Your replays did not help with burying the tread even a single bit. Thank you for the tips on how to find certain info in the forum.


People respectfully indicated what is standard etiquette here and now you are throwing that polite request into our faces. I'd like you to take a deep breath and think about who is being hostile and aggressive in this situation. People are happy to have you here, but only if you are respectful.


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## bksdds (Jul 2, 2015)

10 lashings for all who replied including myself.


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