# How to start Backcountry Riding.



## Extazy

Hello peeps.

Will try to make this short. My GF and Friends made me a surprise birthday party (I don't like birthdays) and gave me some backcountry related presents. The biggest one is from GF, it's an avalanche airbag backpack.

We are going to mount baker this January and I already googled if I could sign up for backcountry classes but unfortunately, dates are a little off. So no classes for now.

In the middle of the process, I was a bit confused about how many classes there are, and how diverse backcountry in general (Heli skiing, cat tracks, hiking (that requires split boards)). The thing is I am more focused on my career for now and work, so I am on the budget. My GF knows how much I love snowboarding and wants me to start riding backcountry and introduce her and her friends eventually.

Could you please navigate me and let me know what classes and courses I need to take to be aka "safe and prepared" for backcountry? From what I understand AIARE 1 and AIARE 2 are must have but what about others? I can't afford splitboards for at least 2 years, so, for now, all I can is snowshoeing and leaving resort boundaries.

Also, it seems mount baker has a really good infrastructure when it comes to learning backcountry, here on east coasts we don't have it this developed. Is there another mountain someone can recommend we can plan a trip and corporate backcountry learning with? I heard Tahoe has a good infrastructure as well.

Thank you!


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## deagol

People will probably disagree with me, but getting into backcountry is a HUGE time and money investment. Even after years I am still learning. I just read several avalanche reports (including with fatalities) about an area I was in for the first time on Sunday and it sucks. 

I just don't see it as practical unless you are living in the right place and are already bored with ski areas. You are really taking a lot more risk and it's easy to get into terrain that you can 'ride' but it is a lot more dangerous than you think due to avy danger. 

I would start with this..


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## chomps1211

If neither chimes in soon,.. you might think about pm'ing @killclimbz and/or @wrathfuldeity. 

Both have bc experience (...killz has a _tonne!) _and wrath is a veritable _fount_ of knowledge regarding Mt. Baker. 

Iir from my brief vist,... there are several places @ Baker where from the top of a lift, one can hike a (...reasonably) short(ish) distance and do some serious bc riding. 

Not only that, but if Im not mistaken, on some of them it's possible to ride them out and navigate back to lifts again at the bottom. (...wrath would kno for sure about that last bit.) :shrug:

However, this is still true bc. Not patroled, cliffs, avalanche prone etc. So Not to be taken lightly despite some ease of access. 

(...they've also got some _"inbounds" _ riding that is gnarly as f#%*!!! ) 

 :hairy:


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## Snowdaddy

Extazy said:


> The biggest one is from GF, it's an avalanche airbag backpack.


Backcountry touring, tele, skiing and snowboarding is a lot of fun, just bear in mind that there are so much that can go wrong besides avalanches. Everything from hitting rocks, trees, steep drops to hidden glacier crevasses. People without knowledge about winter survival easily die from exposure if the get lost. Even experienced mountaineers mess up.




deagol said:


> People will probably disagree with me, but getting into backcountry is a HUGE time and money investment. Even after years I am still learning.


Quoted for truth. The backcountry is also something very special.


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## killclimbz

Man, the avalanche airbag is a nice piece of gear, but it is in no way a mandatory piece of gear. You need a beacon, shovel, probe, and a method (backpack) to carry that gear with you. This is mandatory gear. End of story. If you don't have it, don't go into the backcountry. If you get caught in an avalanche, you are likely dead. If someone else gets caught, and you are in the vicinity, you are worthless unless you have this gear to assist. 
Baker has a ton of "slackcountry" which is resort accessed backcountry. It is not controlled for avalanches, and the terrain around there is serious avy terrain. Shuksan Arm is gnarly. 
My advice would be to make sure you have the big three pieces of gear. The airbag is a nice extra, I ride with one, so don't think that I am saying the utility of it isn't there. If I have to leave a piece behind, that is the one. Just like my hut trip last week, I left the airbag behind.
Check out Know Before You Go. This is a good introductory site that goes over basic avalanche awareness. There are also free presentations that run through this. They are quite good. If you decide this is something you really want to get into, take an AAIRE level 1 course. After taking the L1 you will have been taught enough to make decisions in the backcountry. The L2 is more about advanced decision making and traveling in complicated terrain. It is not necessary to start with. Most avalanche instructors want you to take a L1 and then spend some time out there getting experience. 
It doesn't matter what style you get into. Riding backcountry accessed from the resorts, splitboarding, snowmobiling, heli riding. You are exposed in one way or another. How you approach it differs based on what you are doing. The one thing for sure, an avalanche doesn't care if you are a n00b or the most renowned expert. It is an equal opportunist and will kill you if you give it a chance. I've lost too many friends already to them. Most people who have been around in this game have. It's a sad truth. 
Take it seriously, do it right, and you might find yourself doing some of the most rewarding things ever. I love it, but it does come with it's dark side. Learning how to travel in avalanche terrain is key.


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## neni

Classes are one thing, but a lot comes down to experience and repetition. No class can ever cover all situations and variables. I do an repetition class every year, and learn new things every year.

To start, I'd join your local mountaineering club, if it exists at yours, to join experienced bc tourers, learn where the easy tours in your region are, learn from older ppl who have toured the region for decades, or do guided tours and suck up knowledge there.


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## Extazy

Guys thank for the input.

To make things clearer I do not see backpack as 50% backcountry success. Trust me it's just a motivation (my GF will keep bothering me about it) to do something that I wanted to do for a while now.

I used to ride at least 30-40 days on east coast, but now I barely go out. I am bored of Ice coast. But I am also picky when it comes to conditions in general. For example I rode in Wyoming last year, and it was only 1 day at Jackson Hole. Most of it was Grand Targhee due to snow conditions.

When it comes to gear rest of my friends presents were beacon, probe, showed and socks. So I basicaly got everything except split board and skins.

I made a call to avalanche school at mnt baker and they told me that I can do AAIRE level 1 course even at east coast cause mostly it's just theoretical stuff with little to do outside. They also offer guide tours for around $500, and told me that should be a good starting point.

I would do it but even with my GF it will be $270 from both of us which is a bit much. I guess I should just read books for now and make money for the next year)


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## wrathfuldeity

Disclaimer...I'm still a bc noob with L1 and with bc gear...but still a knoob. Unfortunately have riding skills and confidence to ride more gnarls than I would not ever want to get caught in.... So when you are out; if the weather and snow conditions are good, bring what you have (we can get the rest of the gear) and I will take you out on some very mellow/low risk areas to pop yer cherry. But first, we'll drop a couple of inbound burlys to see if yer sphincter is nice and relaxed. 

Baker's slack is sooo wickedly seductive...the main issue is not getting out there...its getting back. But the reality is damm terrifying...scroll through these links

https://gallery.mtbaker.us/Archive/20102011-Season/Grant-Gunderson/

https://gallery.mtbaker.us/Archive/20122013-Season/Grant-Gunderson/


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## Extazy

neni said:


> Classes are one thing, but a lot comes down to experience and repetition. No class can ever cover all situations and variables. I do an repetition class every year, and learn new things every year.
> 
> To start, I'd join your local mountaineering club, if it exists at yours, to join experienced bc tourers, learn where the easy tours in your region are, learn from older ppl who have toured the region for decades, or do guided tours and suck up knowledge there.


I was researching about it. Mostly people do backcountry near Jay Peak in north Vermont. But from what I gathered some tour guides disregard avalanche safety, because chances are so small for them to happen that they don't even take any gear. I can start doing it with them, but it's still quite a commitment (8 hour drive).


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## deagol

Extazy said:


> ….they told me that I can do AAIRE level 1 course even at east coast cause mostly it's just theoretical stuff with little to do outside.


This probably depends on the school itself but when I did mine, we were probably 75% outside.


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## Extazy

deagol said:


> This probably depends on the school itself but when I did mine, we were probably 75% outside.


I was also surprised since most of the photos I found (on their website and on this forum) were outside, but maybe guy on the phone was trying to get in my situation and offered least expensive alternative.


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## deagol

I've never ridden back east, but it might be something specific to your region. 

There is one important thing about backcountry that has not been brought up yet: a good partner (or partners) is the most important part of the backcountry safety equation. These are the people who are going to dig you out if you are unlucky enough to be buried. 

There is a saying I have heard as it relates to this question: don't be a beginner led by beginners ... and don't be a beginner leading other beginners.


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## Extazy

deagol said:


> I would start with this..
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w7Pye9f602s


Man this video is so sad. And I can totally relate. Hurt my shoulder couple seasons ago, due to being stocked and attempting bigger jump.


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## Snowdaddy

Have any of you gotten any winter survival training or is it just avalanche training?


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## Rip154

Start small, as long as there's snow and a hill, you get some clues about it. A big part about backcountry is actually being able to get out there, and you learn the basics pretty quick while doing that. Walk up, then ride down, and you have all the terrain in the world for free. Follow your gut, it's usually way too careful, but will allow you to do more when you learn. Make sure you have a serious discussion with it each time, so you don't miss out

Check the snowpack, listen to sounds from the snowpack, see how it varies on different faces. Learn where to walk up, think about how to apply the least pressure when you walk in a group, where to ride to avoid traps in avalance terrain. You can read and watch videos about most of it, but you'll never learn until you try it.

An avalanche course is the basic of course, but won't help if you travel alone, or make the wrong choices. Joining a backcountry workshop is a good way to learn. Usually starts with some theory, an avalanche course, and you get to join some trips of varying difficulty with a guide. Ask the guide about stuff, they want to talk about it. A course for just the theory by itself is a waste though, you can read that.

It can be useful to learn to walk and ride with the gear you need for a full trip, even if it's just a small hike around a local area. Having gear that works and you feel comfy with is a big deal. You will soon realise what you need and don't need, and how you can adjust. Gear is nothing without experience.


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## Extazy

Snowdaddy said:


> Have any of you gotten any winter survival training or is it just avalanche training?


So far I have nothing)


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## Kenai

There are also avy classes on Mt. Washington out of North Conway, NH. Probably not any closer than the Jay area, though. 

There’s a lot of great info on Canada’s avalanche website as well. Start in the “learn” section. https://www.avalanche.ca

Here’s another sobering video. https://www.avalanche.ca/cherry-bowl/#/intro


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## killclimbz

Snowdaddy said:


> Have any of you gotten any winter survival training or is it just avalanche training?


Good question. Survival training? No. I've learned enough over the years. How to dig a snow cave, bring extra warm layers, that sort of thing. 99% of the situations revolve around injuries or poor timing. 

I have taken CPR, wilderness first aid, and did basic life support for my CPR recert last year. That is your biggest issue. If you have a partner, or get caught yourself in an avalanche, there is a good chance you are going to sustain significant injuries. Not too mention, people can just sustain an injury by being out there. Someone can do a knee, sustain a head injury. There is no ski patrol to help you out. You'll have to get out on your own, or get an assist from Search and Rescue. Either way, whatever you can do to stabilize and help bring that person to the next level of care is a benefit to the injured party.

Poor timing usually involved being out after night fall. Head lamps, extra warm layers, knowing where you are, and patience are the biggest things to help in that situation. Just plug along to your destination and take your time, don't panic. It sucks, but those epics are always fun to talk about after the fact at least.


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## wrathfuldeity

killclimbz said:


> Good question. Survival training? No. I've learned enough over the years. How to dig a snow cave, bring extra warm layers, that sort of thing. 99% of the situations revolve around injuries or poor timing.
> 
> I have taken CPR, wilderness first aid, and did basic life support for my CPR recert last year. That is your biggest issue. If you have a partner, or get caught yourself in an avalanche, there is a good chance you are going to sustain significant injuries. Not too mention, people can just sustain an injury by being out there. Someone can do a knee, sustain a head injury. There is no ski patrol to help you out. You'll have to get out on your own, or get an assist from Search and Rescue. Either way, whatever you can do to stabilize and help bring that person to the next level of care is a benefit to the injured party.
> 
> Poor timing usually involved being out after night fall. Head lamps, extra warm layers, knowing where you are, and patience are the biggest things to help in that situation. Just plug along to your destination and take your time, don't panic. It sucks, but those epics are always fun to talk about after the fact at least.


Yes, avys are one thing...but a relatively minor inbounds injury or equip malfunction can quickly turn in a a epic event in the BC. Years ago, a day or 2 after killz and crew popped my cherry, one of the crew...iirc blew out a knee and lost a ski...was 2-3 mile trudge out in the dark?.


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## Kenai

I had to search to find one more video. This was the best thing shown during my avy class. It really highlights a number of the challenges and pitfalls in backcountry decision making. 

https://youtu.be/nIPk_Ap7svM

Of course, none of this heavy shit means don’t hit the backcountry. It just means learn as much as you can and go slow. 



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## Snowdaddy

When I think about the backcountry it's somewhere you don't go without supplies and survival equipment. Anywhere you ride without that is just off piste. The thing is that I think people, myself probably included, are a lot more careless when it's "just" off piste.

Personally I try to always ride with a partner or within reach of a piste or such, and I avoid going where I can't clearly see the terrain ahead.

I do have equipment to go into proper backcountry (though not a splitboard) but it's just such an undertaking I don't do it because of the time it takes. I've been thinking about it, but I will probably just ride from the resorts.


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## Kenai

Snowdaddy said:


> When I think about the backcountry it's somewhere you don't go without supplies and survival equipment. Anywhere you ride without that is just off piste. The thing is that I think people, myself probably included, are a lot more careless when it's "just" off piste.
> 
> 
> 
> Personally I try to always ride with a partner or within reach of a piste or such, and I avoid going where I can't clearly see the terrain ahead.
> 
> 
> 
> I do have equipment to go into proper backcountry (though not a splitboard) but it's just such an undertaking I don't do it because of the time it takes. I've been thinking about it, but I will probably just ride from the resorts.




What do you mean supplies and survival equipment? It sounds to me like you are thinking of winter camping/mountaineering or some type of expedition into the wilderness as backcountry and everything else is just “off piste.” I think that’s a mistake. 

The stuff that is accessible as a day trip but where no one is going to take a stove and sleeping bag and stuff (matches, first aid kit, space blanket sure) is still backcountry. If you get off at the top of a pass and ride to the bottom with a car shuttle, THAT IS BACKCOUNTRY! 



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## killclimbz

wrathfuldeity said:


> Yes, avys are one thing...but a relatively minor inbounds injury or equip malfunction can quickly turn in a a epic event in the BC. Years ago, a day or 2 after killz and crew popped my cherry, one of the crew...iirc blew out a knee and lost a ski...was 2-3 mile trudge out in the dark?.


Yeah, that sucked, but we got out.


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## Snowdaddy

Kenai said:


> What do you mean supplies and survival equipment? It sounds to me like you are thinking of winter camping/mountaineering or some type of expedition into the wilderness as backcountry and everything else is just “off piste.” I think that’s a mistake.
> 
> The stuff that is accessible as a day trip but where no one is going to take a stove and sleeping bag and stuff (matches, first aid kit, space blanket sure) is still backcountry. If you get off at the top of a pass and ride to the bottom with a car shuttle, THAT IS BACKCOUNTRY!
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I think my point was that people get careless just because it's accessible.


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## chomps1211

Extazy said:


> I was researching about it. Mostly people do backcountry near Jay Peak in north Vermont. But *from what I gathered some tour guides disregard avalanche safety, because chances are so small for them to happen that they don't even take any gear.* I can start doing it with them, but it's still quite a commitment (8 hour drive).


That would _REALLY_ concern me. It doesn't matter to me how "small" the chances are. What matters to me is are the so called "experts" making sure that *every* precaution is taken if lightning should strike. 

This is from a year or two back at one of our little molehill resorts here in MI. It's off the backside of the run in a roped off area,... ( which frequently gets _"ducked!"_)



















You never know. Even in the most unlikely places. :shrug:


The saying I remember most distinctly is,... if it's steep enough to ride, it's steep enough to slide!!


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## Snowdaddy

Kenai said:


> What do you mean supplies and survival equipment? It sounds to me like you are thinking of winter camping/mountaineering or some type of expedition into the wilderness as backcountry and everything else is just “off piste.” I think that’s a mistake.


And yes, I do think that. And I think that's a mistake


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## deagol

"......_Don’t try and outsmart the avy forecast with snow pits or science. A considerable rating pretty much takes me out of avalanche terrain.._.."

https://www.jonessnowboards.com/en-US/base-camp/blog/jeremy-jones-pre-game-avalanche-protocols.html


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## Snowdaddy

deagol said:


> https://www.jonessnowboards.com/en-US/base-camp/blog/jeremy-jones-pre-game-avalanche-protocols.html


Sensible protocols I say


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## neni

Snowdaddy said:


> Have any of you gotten any winter survival training or is it just avalanche training?


What do you mean by winter survival training? In my neck of woods, a bc day looks like this: pack gear, skin up a mtn, ride it down, go home. Or if it's a multiday trip: pack gear, skin up, ride to an alpine hut, sleep, rinse repeat. 

It's very unlikely to get lost for several days as we have a dense alpine hut system. Thus, I never had anything which I'd call winter survival training - which sounds like staying alive somewhere remote for days. If we'd get cought by bad weather and wouldn't be able to navigate to the next hut (which we avoid by studying forcasts, and having maps n compas and plan B), I'd know to dig a snow cave to get off the wind and always carry an emergency bivvy bag and thermal blankets to survive a night out, but that's it. 
If someone gets hurt, we have the basic emergency medi-kit, know to do a splint or sledge to evacuate someone mildly hurt, but if it's bad, we have heli rescue. If someone would be badly hurt AND it's bad down-day heli weather AND get lost n couldn't reach the next hut? Yup, we _would_ be screwed. But then qlso things would have gone wrong before tgat, like making bad decisions beforehand. That's why weather and a plan B is a prime decision factor to us.


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## Snowdaddy

neni said:


> What do you mean by winter survival training? In my neck of woods, a bc day looks like this: pack gear, skin up a mtn, ride it down, go home. Or if it's a multiday trip: pack gear, skin up, ride to an alpine hut, sleep, rinse repeat.
> 
> It's very unlikely to get lost for several days as we have a dense alpine hut system. Thus, I never had anything which I'd call winter survival training - which sounds like staying alive somewhere remote for days. If we'd get cought by bad weather and wouldn't be able to navigate to the next hut (which we avoid by studying forcasts, and having maps n compas and plan B), I'd know to dig a snow cave to get off the wind and always carry an emergency bivvy bag and thermal blankets to survive a night out, but that's it.
> If someone gets hurt, we have the basic emergency medi-kit, know to do a splint or sledge to evacuate someone mildly hurt, but if it's bad, we have heli rescue. If someone would be badly hurt AND it's bad down-day heli weather AND get lost n couldn't reach the next hut? Yup, we _would_ be screwed. But then qlso things would have gone wrong before tgat, like making bad decisions beforehand. That's why weather and a plan B is a prime decision factor to us.


Just being curious. And if you can stay alive for one day you could likely stay alive for more


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## neni

Snowdaddy said:


> Just being curious. And if you can stay alive for one day you could likely stay alive for more


Food and hot tea and heat would run out after that night. In this hypothetical situation there would be a blizzard, or else I wouldn't be in the situation. So... IF that blizzard would continue, I'd be dead the next night, because I haven't packed for an expedition, but for a bc day trip. And I can sccept that risk, cos it's very low, cos I'd never get on a bc trip if chances for a blizzard are there.


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## deagol

to add to what neni says, it can be hard to carry everything you want to or that you should carry. My pack is only so large and it already feels quite heavy. Speed is safety in the mountains and being able to travel fast and light without getting exhausted is important. I think we all take risks and the backcountry is no exception. I don't have the gear to survive overnight unless I could manage in a snowcave (which I have done once many years ago but with a proper sleeping bag and ground pad and stove).


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## Kenai

Snowdaddy said:


> When I think about the backcountry it's somewhere you don't go without supplies and survival equipment. Anywhere you ride without that is just off piste. The thing is that I think people, myself probably included, are a lot more careless when it's "just" off piste.
> 
> 
> 
> Personally I try to always ride with a partner or within reach of a piste or such, and I avoid going where I can't clearly see the terrain ahead.
> 
> 
> 
> I do have equipment to go into proper backcountry (though not a splitboard) but it's just such an undertaking I don't do it because of the time it takes. I've been thinking about it, but I will probably just ride from the resorts.



I realize in many ways we are just arguing about semantics. The reality is we take risks. The key is to understand the risks so you can accurately evaluate whether you are comfortable with that level of risk. 

Most of us are not going to carry much “survival” gear on a short backcountry trip. That doesn’t mean we are unprepared. I think that is what struck me about your post - it read to me that you were equating backcountry with a place you need survival gear and “careless” with lack of survival gear and I don’t agree with either of those statements. 



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## neni

Kenai said:


> I realize in many ways we are just arguing about semantics. The reality is we take risks. The key is to understand the risks so you can accurately evaluate whether you are comfortable with that level of risk.





deagol said:


> to add to what neni says, it can be hard to carry everything you want to or that you should carry. My pack is only so large and it already feels quite heavy. Speed is safety in the mountains and being able to travel fast and light without getting exhausted is important.


This.

BC is all about risk management, and the gear you pack is part of it. The more you pack, for the more situations you are prepared, sure, BUT the heavier the pack, the slower you get, which in turns increases your risk. It's give and take.

Thus it depends on what type of BC venture is on the table that day. Like, if I would pack for a multiday traverse in a rural place with no cell coverage and rescue? Sure, my pack would be totally different. But so would be the plan for which route and how far. (Since I endure cold badly, this is out of my scope anyway. I only do multiday hut to hut trips. I.e. only basic survival stuff needed to increase my personal risk feel as I reach a warm hut in the evening). Different bc trips require different gear and allow for different travel speed and routing.

OTOH, there's an absolute minimum which I take to venture BC. Beacon, probe, shovel is absolutely mandatory to me even if it's only lift accessible resort peaks towering above lifts n groomers (which at ours is bc cos it's not bombed nor patrolled). Just today, it was incredibly tempting, as someone did one of those peaks and it looked as if there is real nice pow, and it means this someone has cut the necessary steps... would have been an easy 1hr bootpack from the top lift to access a great 800m run back down to resort. Avy risk down to mellow. Tempting. But we didn't have any gear, so it was a clear NO. 

I know ppl who do that peak in such conditions without any gear, solo. And that's fine. That's their personal risk level. It's not mine. I always think that I don't want to end up as that gal in the statistics who would have an avy pack n all_at home_ but got caught that one day she rode in resort mode with nothing. 

Same goes for many other, slightly less risky "bc" off piste runs at ours. Countless ppl ride them without any gear. I don't. Because shit _could_ happen. Has. Risk is low, but the remaining odds are too high for me. Not high enough to keep me from riding there, of course, but... IF shit happens, I want to be able to search my partner, do everything possible to find him and keep him alive. Sure, there'd be the risk he died from trauma anyway, or I wouldn't reach him quick enough, but those are the margins we take and live with. What I couldn't live with is standing there bare handed, not able to even try to rescue him because we went without any gear. 

So... in short: bc <> bc and risk management is a personal thing.


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## caboholic

chomps1211 said:


> That would _REALLY_ concern me. It doesn't matter to me how "small" the chances are. What matters to me is are the so called "experts" making sure that *every* precaution is taken if lightning should strike.
> 
> This is from a year or two back at one of our little molehill resorts here in MI. It's off the backside of the run in a roped off area,... ( which frequently gets _"ducked!"_)
> 
> You never know. Even in the most unlikely places. :shrug:
> 
> 
> The saying I remember most distinctly is,... if it's steep enough to ride, it's steep enough to slide!!



I'm impressed. I grew up in the midwest and can say that I've never heard of or seen an avalanche, or report of one, in my entire life from out there. Crazy.


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## Snowdaddy

Snowdaddy said:


> *When I think about the backcountry* it's somewhere you don't go without supplies and survival equipment. Anywhere you ride without that is just off piste. The thing is that I think people, myself probably included, are a lot more careless when it's "just" off piste.
> 
> Personally I try to always ride with a partner or within reach of a piste or such, and I avoid going where I can't clearly see the terrain ahead.
> 
> I do have equipment to go into proper backcountry (though not a splitboard) but it's just such an undertaking I don't do it because of the time it takes. I've been thinking about it, but I will probably just ride from the resorts.





Kenai said:


> I realize in many ways we are just arguing about semantics. The reality is we take risks. The key is to understand the risks so you can accurately evaluate whether you are comfortable with that level of risk.
> 
> Most of us are not going to carry much “survival” gear on a short backcountry trip. That doesn’t mean we are unprepared. I think that is what struck me about your post - it read to me that you were equating backcountry with a place you need survival gear and “careless” with lack of survival gear and I don’t agree with either of those statements.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I don't think I implied that you were careless. I said that people often don't see the dangers with off piste riding because they don't see skipping out of bounds as backcountry or something particularly dangerous.

Besides, the meaning of backcountry is an English term and I don't think we have a good translation in Swedish. Hence the "When I think".


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## Kenai

Snowdaddy said:


> I don't think I implied that you were careless. I said that people often don't see the dangers with off piste riding because they don't see skipping out of bounds as backcountry or something particularly dangerous.
> 
> 
> 
> Besides, the meaning of backcountry is an English term and I don't think we have a good translation in Swedish. Hence the "When I think".




All fair, which is why I wrote “it read to me.” Here in the US we don’t use the term off-piste much at all. Nowadays people here will say “slack country” when they mean resort accessed backcountry. 

My point was simply that there are levels of preparedness for different types of backcountry, but if it ain’t resort, it’s backcountry and should be considered as such.


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## Snowdaddy

Back on the OP's topic I think it's a really good idea to seek out proper training. I could certainly need a brush up myself if I wanted to go into such terrain.


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## Kenai

Lucky kid. https://www.thedenverchannel.com/ne...that-buried-him-for-40-minutes-in-french-alps

Whoever writes about this for AP is an idiot, though. “Avalanche detector.” Man what I wouldn’t give for one of those. 


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## deagol

Kenai said:


> .... “Avalanche detector.” Man what I wouldn’t give for one of those.


Hmm, does the avalanche detector only work after an avalanche has occurred? If so, it won't be that useful.


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## neni

deagol said:


> Hmm, does the avalanche detector only work after an avalanche has occurred? If so, it won't be that useful.


Now that would be a useful suggestion for the next engineer classes project survey


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## deagol

neni said:


> Now that would be a useful suggestion for the next engineer classes project survey


neni, on a bit more serious note RE "detecting" avalanches, I was in a BC zone this past Sunday in the next valley over from the ski area we rode with you & your hubby at the SBF gathering a few years back and I heard these huge crashing sounds. It was pretty freaky and I was wondering if I was hearing natural avalanches from the cornices far above me (I was well out of any run-out zone thankfully). It was very spooky. I was later able to determine this was just avalanche control work related to the ski area itself, but wow was it spooky to hear that being where I was. I had to climb quite a way up the next mountain over to be able to see what had actually happened.


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## Kenai

deagol said:


> I would start with this..
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w7Pye9f602s




I just got the chance to watch this - great video. 


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## chomps1211

Since this thread has pretty well been answered & is _now_ veering a bit off the rails,... :laugh:

I've been curious about these avalanche control efforts. Can you even ride in, on, over, thru, the debris field after they've set off a slide??

The few debris fields I've seen, It looks to me like an un-ridable field of blocks & bumps. Does it set up like hardpack? Do you wait for ma nature to cover the bumps n blocks with snow? 

Does setting off a controlled slide ruin the slope for riding after? Inquiring NooBs wanna know!!  :shrug:


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## deagol

chomps1211 said:


> Since this thread has pretty well been answered & is _now_ veering a bit off the rails,... :laugh:
> 
> I've been curious about these avalanche control efforts. Can you even ride in, on, over, thru, the debris field after they've set off a slide??
> 
> The few debris fields I've seen, It looks to me like an un-ridable field of blocks & bumps. Does it set up like hardpack? Do you wait for ma nature to cover the bumps n blocks with snow?
> 
> Does setting off a controlled slide ruin the slope for riding after? Inquiring NooBs wanna know!!  :shrug:


My experiences: it depends. In the springtime if the avy chunder has melted a bit, it's somewhat rideable, but still bumpy. I've seen the blocks from a hard-slab avalanche in "dry" winter snow and there is no way to ride through that. 

This Vid shows a wet slide debris field around 2:20 that is easy to discern from the "regular" snow. The video doesn't show it but that snow was HORRIBLE to try to ride through. It wanted to suck me down. Killclimbz had ridden down before I did and you can see his track up to that point. I rode past him and never saw where he pulled over to wait, but judging by the absence of his track below where the debris started, I think he went left where I went right. Starting at about 2:35, I'm in the wet, semi-melted chunder and it is very "sticky" and difficult to ride through. At about 2:52, I get out of it back into regular snow and it's so much better. Notice how the partially melted wet slide snow doesn't have those blocks. 

FYI: we ride stuff like this one-at-a-time and use radios to communicate. You only want to expose one person at a time to terrain like this and keep eyes on them as long as possible. The thing with this run is that once the rider drops in about 20 feet, they go over a roll and you can't see them until they emerge out of the bottom of the chute where it opens up... kinda spooky. YMMV


There is also dryer avalanche debris that has been wind affected a bit and partially obscured by new snow drifting in. That stuff is rideable if smoothed over enough..


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## Kenai

chomps1211 said:


> Since this thread has pretty well been answered & is _now_ veering a bit off the rails,... :laugh:
> 
> I've been curious about these avalanche control efforts. Can you even ride in, on, over, thru, the debris field after they've set off a slide??
> 
> The few debris fields I've seen, It looks to me like an un-ridable field of blocks & bumps. Does it set up like hardpack? Do you wait for ma nature to cover the bumps n blocks with snow?
> 
> Does setting off a controlled slide ruin the slope for riding after? Inquiring NooBs wanna know!!  :shrug:


As Deagol said, it depends. Here is a vid of my wife "riding" down through some refrozen, wet avalanche debris. As you can tell, it was horrible. (This was in Austria with a guide.)

[ame]https://vimeo.com/308490695[/ame]

Generally speaking avy debris is going to be very dense (the reason you are essentially encased on concrete if you get buried) so it is no bueno. 

As for riding the slide path, it all depends on how deep it went and what it slid on. If it went to the ground, well, it is the ground. If it is some hard crust layer, that layer is often still there and would suck to ride. Perhaps if it slid on loose facets it would be okay.


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## killclimbz

^^^HAHAHA! OMG that looks terrible! The bs you deal with to do the backcountry thing.

That is a great example. I've also ridden avalanche debris that is complete soft. Usually point release type stuff, or a soft storm slab that broke loose and didn't slide fast and far enough to melt and refreeze. It all depends. If the slide is large enough, it's probably going to be pretty awful to ride through. *See above...


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## chomps1211

Damn!! :blink:

Yeah, that's what I was curious about. Seems like if conditions get bad enough to warrant avy control measures,.. a lot of what could have been _epic_ riding gets ruined. 

Of course having that same slope slide on you if you try to ride it would *really* ruin things,.. so? :shrug:

I gotta say,.. I both envy & admire, _and_ question the sanity of you folks who venture out into the BC.  :laugh: >


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## neni

killclimbz said:


> ^^^HAHAHA! OMG that looks terrible! The bs you deal with to do the backcountry thing.
> 
> That is a great example. I've also ridden avalanche debris that is complete soft. Usually point release type stuff, or a soft storm slab that broke loose and didn't slide fast and far enough to melt and refreeze. It all depends. If the slide is large enough, it's probably going to be pretty awful to ride through. *See above...


Lol, yeah. We had to cross several frozen debris fields today to reach a short run of 400m pow in northern aspect, and then hop turn through a southern aspect minefield of grass n rocks to get out. A lot of work for a hand full sweet turns, but still worth it. 
AND, less dangerous than riding groomers ATM, where holiday vacation crowds in constant mulled wine xmas-new year mood crash into eachother at too high speeds. (Rescue heli flew 5 times yesterday to evacuate injured groomer folks).


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## deagol

Kenai said:


> As Deagol said, it depends. Here is a vid of my wife "riding" down through some refrozen, wet avalanche debris. As you can tell, it was horrible. (This was in Austria with a guide.)
> 
> Generally speaking avy debris is going to be very dense (the reason you are essentially encased on concrete if you get buried) so it is no bueno.
> 
> As for riding the slide path, it all depends on how deep it went and what it slid on. If it went to the ground, well, it is the ground. If it is some hard crust layer, that layer is often still there and would suck to ride. Perhaps if it slid on loose facets it would be okay.


Wow, that is horrible. Looks like there were several other slides coming down into that same valley. Must be "slack country" as she is on a solid board? Also, is that a Dupraz?


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## wrathfuldeity

neni said:


> Lol, yeah... A lot of work for a hand full sweet turns, but still worth it.
> AND, less dangerous than riding groomers ATM, where holiday vacation crowds in constant mulled wine xmas-new year mood crash into eachother at too high speeds. (Rescue heli flew 5 times yesterday to evacuate injured groomer folks).


Yup BC is cheap compared to a heli ride to the ER...and not much joy to be had. Even an ambulance ride to the ER is going to be at least a 4 hour ordeal at our little hill.


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## Kenai

neni said:


> Lol, yeah. We had to cross several frozen debris fields today to reach a short run of 400m pow in northern aspect, and then hop turn through a southern aspect minefield of grass n rocks to get out. A lot of work for a hand full sweet turns, but still worth it.
> AND, less dangerous than riding groomers ATM, where holiday vacation crowds in constant mulled wine xmas-new year mood crash into eachother at too high speeds. (Rescue heli flew 5 times yesterday to evacuate injured groomer folks).


That was the funniest thing about riding in Austria. We watched a heli come to get a woman injured *on a groomer* 200 yards from the top of the main gondola in St. Anton. Rescue dude even flew up from the bottom suspended on a cable under the heli. Our guess was the lady took one look at how she was potentially getting down the hill and suddenly managed to walk her ass back up to the top of the gondi. That would never happen here - she’d get a ski patrol sled to the bottom or, in this case, maybe a snowmobile ride the 200 yards to the lift.

This photo is from the top of the lift.


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## Kenai

deagol said:


> Wow, that is horrible. Looks like there were several other slides coming down into that same valley. Must be "slack country" as she is on a solid board? Also, is that a Dupraz?


 Yes, it was a very warm February (2016, Neni) and a ton of stuff slid. This is "European" backcountry. We were going between interconnected ski areas. Some hiking, lots of traversing, but no need for a split board, especially because most of the snow was so solid. Fortunately our guide managed to find us pockets of soft snow and we were also hitting things just as it warmed up before it was too soft and dangerous. That particular day we rode at 3-4 resorts (depending on how your define them) and ended up taking a bus back about 45 minutes to the area we started. The next day we ended up in another valley and took the train back to where we started. It's a wild and fun way to explore.

Yep, it's a Dupraz.


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## neni

wrathfuldeity said:


> Yup BC is cheap compared to a heli ride to the ER...and not much joy to be had. Even an ambulance ride to the ER is going to be at least a 4 hour ordeal at our little hill.


Heli isn't that expensive. Actually quite cheap IMO. We only pay 40$ a year for Rega (Swiss Heli Rescue organisation) membership. That's it. If injured, they'd fetch us, w/o additional cost.


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## Kenai

neni said:


> Heli isn't that expensive. Actually quite cheap IMO. We only pay 40$ a year for Rega (Swiss Heli Rescue organisation) membership. That's it. If injured, they'd fetch us, w/o additional cost.




Yeah, we saw how that worked. Have fun getting transported down the mountain 100 feet below on a cable dangling and swinging under the heli!!! 

(Actually, I’d find that the best part of the experience.) 


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## neni

Kenai said:


> Yeah, we saw how that worked. Have fun getting transported down the mountain 100 feet below on a cable dangling and swinging under the heli!!!
> 
> (Actually, I’d find that the best part of the experience.)
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Mmm... our Helis have inboard transportation. No cable. They transport goods to huts or cows with cable, tho.

https://www.zalp.ch/aktuell/suppen/suppe_2008_04_01/bilder/rega.jpg


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## Kenai

neni said:


> Mmm... our Helis have inboard transportation. No cable. They transport goods to huts or cows with cable, tho.
> 
> https://www.zalp.ch/aktuell/suppen/suppe_2008_04_01/bilder/rega.jpg


:surprise::surprise::surprise:

Without a comma I thought you meant "transport goods to huts or transport goods to cows" with the cable. Holy shit that cow must be mad!


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## wrathfuldeity

neni said:


> Heli isn't that expensive. Actually quite cheap IMO. We only pay 40$ a year for Rega (Swiss Heli Rescue organisation) membership. That's it. If injured, they'd fetch us, w/o additional cost.



Does that include rescues from the flatland to the highland? >


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## alx9898

wrathfuldeity said:


> Does that include rescues from the flatland to the highland? >


I was going to say... I may need to get "rescued" from my hotel parking lot to a few summits!


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## wrathfuldeity

@Extazy twas out yesterday scouted a little place where you hike out like 2 minutes, drop a short mellow line and then a short tour out...to lift assisted up (or not) and repeat. Definitely not an adventure but it would give you an idea of transitions and a wee bit touring. I'd never hit it before because it was so close.


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## Extazy

wrathfuldeity said:


> @Extazy twas out yesterday scouted a little place where you hike out like 2 minutes, drop a short mellow line and then a short tour out...to lift assisted up (or not) and repeat. Definitely not an adventure but it would give you an idea of transitions and a wee bit touring. I'd never hit it before because it was so close.


Cool!) Is it worth doing that more or I should just do it just to get an idea?


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## wrathfuldeity

sending pm meow


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## deagol

Here is some food for thought with getting into backcountry:
https://avalanche.state.co.us/caic/acc/acc_report.php?accfm=rep&acc_id=685

This is particularly concerning since this actually happened during an avalanche class.


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## caboholic

deagol said:


> Here is some food for thought with getting into backcountry:
> 
> https://avalanche.state.co.us/caic/acc/acc_report.php?accfm=rep&acc_id=685
> 
> 
> 
> This is particularly concerning since this actually happened during an avalanche class.




I’d be very interested to read a fuller incident report and lessons learned from this if and when it becomes available; how awful for everyone involved. :sad:


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## Snowdaddy

Is it just me or does that place also look a bit like a nasty terrain trap?


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## caboholic

It looks like that to me. A bit of a bowl shape due to what appears to be a bench in front of it. I’m not sure exactly where this is or what the avy danger was there yesterday, but a large portion of the western co slopes are high danger today due to storm slab potential. Wonder if that was the problem for the day in question, too. 


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## deagol

I don't know the details but do know the general area where this happened. A group I was in a couple years ago had a great tour in the next basin to the south, but it was in April.

Condolences to the family of this poor guy... :frown:


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## Extazy

Guys, what do you think of Airbag cylinders?

I have empty backcountry accessories cylinder that you cant carry through TSA. Can I have a full cylinder in the baggage?

It seems the only place that fills up those cylinders is diving shops and it costs $60-70. That's a lot, considering you have to have an empty one when you travel. On their website, they have lots of shops that should be refiling. I called some of them and many stopped refiling them due to insurance issues (if clap that they install won't work they can be sued).

Others said they never provided this service, to begin with. Kinda not sure if I need this bag anymore.


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## Extazy

deagol said:


> Here is some food for thought with getting into backcountry:
> https://avalanche.state.co.us/caic/acc/acc_report.php?accfm=rep&acc_id=685
> 
> This is particularly concerning since this actually happened during an avalanche class.


daim, a person who died was buried under 2,5 meters of snow. Why would the instructor chose a place where 2 avalanches can be triggered.


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## caboholic

Extazy said:


> Guys, what do you think of Airbag cylinders?
> 
> 
> 
> I have empty backcountry accessories cylinder that you cant carry through TSA. Can I have a full cylinder in the baggage?
> 
> 
> 
> It seems the only place that fills up those cylinders is diving shops and it costs $60-70. That's a lot, considering you have to have an empty one when you travel. On their website, they have lots of shops that should be refiling. I called some of them and many stopped refiling them due to insurance issues (if clap that they install won't work they can be sued).
> 
> 
> 
> Others said they never provided this service, to begin with. Kinda not sure if I need this bag anymore.




You can’t have a full cylinder in your bag as far as I know. Not sure where you are located, but the price you quote seems high considering I had mine filled at a local pnw dive shop for $5. 


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## Kenai

Extazy said:


> It seems the only place that fills up those cylinders is diving shops and it costs $60-70.


That seems way high. I’ve not had to refill because I haven’t flown, but at most I paid $20 Canadian when I got my fill last year. 

You definitely cannot take a full cylinder on an airplane.


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## killclimbz

Usually somewhere between $5 and $20 to get a cylinder filled in the US. Dive shops are also generally cheaper. They just need the adapter to fill the cylinder. A phone call should verify that.

As far as the avalanche accident goes. That area where it happened has lots of micro features. It had also been very warm the day before and day of the accident. Definitely above freezing on Saturday. My truck read 38 degrees F at the summit of the pass. Lots of evidence of freeze thaw activity, and also signs of west slide activity on the sunnier slopes. I noted 2-3 point release slides starting in rocks and one tree'd slope. As you would expect. There was also what appeared to be a wet slab release just to the North of the pass, on the other side of the highway from where the accident happened.
Avalanche danger was rated as moderate on all aspects and all elevations for the day.

The biggest problems is, even with this warming and strengthening of the snow pack, the bottom 10-30cm of the snow pack is pretty much all facets. Sugar snow for those who don't know the term. That is just not going away anytime soon, though that warm cycle certainly helped. We have also had a persistent weak layer issue for weeks, though it had not been very reactive. It seems most likely this persistent weak layer is what failed. I would guess the group hit a thin layer in the overlying slab and triggered it. When the avalanche center talks about isolated pockets of concern, this seems to be a classic example. I certainly would not have expected this on the terrain they were traveling on. It is not very steep in that area, and there wasn't much going on to warn you that a slab like that on a slope that is not very sun exposed would go. All of this is just my observations, so don't take this as an official report. Hopefully just a little insight into the day. The provider is well regarded and this is obviously a tragic accident. I also talked to some of the guides who were in the area, but no one at the scene when the accident happened. They knew a tiny bit more, but info was still not solid, so I have nothing to share there. Waiting on the CAIC final report to see what they found. This will be a learning experience for pretty much every avalanche school in the US, if not North America. 

Of note, in 2005 there was a person killed in a L2 avy class just outside of Aspen Highlands. I know there have been a few others previous to that. You can find the summary of that one on the CAIC's accident summary page from the 04-05 season.


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## deagol

Extazy said:


> daim, a person who died was buried under 2,5 meters of snow. Why would the instructor chose a place where 2 avalanches can be triggered.


That is a good question and I think most people who would offer an answer would be "Monday morning quarter-backing". It is very concerning to me, but I don't know the facts, so will hold-off speculating. I have been in the general area and have ridden a basin to the south, but have not been in this specific basin before.

edited to add:
I went to college relatively close to this area many years ago (majored in geology). One of our students did his senior seminar on avalanches in the San Juan Mountains and how slide danger related to aspect. His conclusion was that avy danger was approximately equal on north vs south (with east being greatest) but due to different reasons. One main point I remember is that the fact that the temperature crosses the freeze/thaw line so frequently was a big factor- this ties-in with Killclimbz's point above. This was many years ago and the understanding may have changed since then, but that's what I remember. Avalanches relate to geology because they affect how the mountainside erodes, due to removal of trees in certain areas, thus also influencing drainage in the summer time. They also can deposit loose talus in the runout zones, which can be spotted in the summer. I've looked at this exact slope in Google Earth since the slide occurred and the evidence is not very obvious here to me. I'm guessing that since it was skier triggered, it would happen probably not in the same place that a natural slide would occur since there are other areas in that same basin that look even more susceptible to an avalanche? The slope where the second (sympathetic) avalanche released from did look like the more obvious slope to slide to me. It's hard to know/predict everything, so in the guide/instructor's defense, I would have to hold off thinking that they made some obvious blunder.


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## Extazy

I found one Diving place that does it. They charge $15 bucks for it. "Gone Diving" if anyone needs for info.

Man, I gotta email backcountry access about this. They claim they have like 10 shops in Bellingham area that can do it.


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## wrathfuldeity

Got @Extazy out on some almost boiler plate bluebird PNW concrete...and almost lost him down a little pitch while looking for a good steep place to dig an easy pit...he was in soft boots and me in hards...just walking along...and behind me Extazy was holding on to dear life and trying to jam his shovel in the boiler plate to keep from sliding off the planet...sorry about that. But he got a wee taste of Baker BC. Anyway he has a great crew who were not afraid of the less than ideal Baker conditions. Finished off the day with 2 runs in to Gunner's bowl and in to the canyon...and the gals crushed it. So Fun.


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## poser

wrathfuldeity said:


> Yup BC is cheap compared to a heli ride to the ER...and not much joy to be had. Even an ambulance ride to the ER is going to be at least a 4 hour ordeal at our little hill.




More relative for he Backcountry conversation, but I pay $30 a year for search and rescue insurance that includes $50,000 of heli insurance in addition to paying an extra $20 a month for accident insurance through my health care provider which covers a lot of these types of accidents with a larger deductible. The catch for the heli specific insurance is that it is associated with my Spot X Messenger so I have to initiate the SOS through the device in order to receive coverage, though, if it’s a hand off from a “rescue” (which I shouldn’t be charged for as a CO hunting license includes a small S&R fee) ,to an “ambulance” (you are usually considered “rescued” once in the helicopter), then my accident insurance should kick in with a high deductible. 

The way I figure it, I spend so much time in the Backcountry doing high risk activities between snowboarding, Mtn Biking and hunting, that the statistics really accumulate against me over time to the point that some redundancy is likely wise.


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## neni

Extazy said:


> Can I have a full cylinder in the baggage?


Nope. I even had a TSA guy who insisted to look _into_ the cylinder as he didn't believe the gauge which showed that it's empty. (And as the valve needs a new seal after opening, I begun to carry replacement seals on later trips, until I gave up and bought a jetforce for US trips cos on the next trip another TSA guy didn't believethat the bag doesn'thave any pyrotechnics and held us up forever and we almost missed the flight)

According to Mammut, one can also refill at certain fire stations. Theh have a list of such stations on their homepage


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## killclimbz

Full report on the avalanche here.


Updated the link. Evidently I hopped over to the Trico incedent before I copied the link.


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## deagol

Just read the full report, very scary- even with a full crew digging, it took them 25 minutes to reach the buried victim
It took them a full 50 minutes to remove the skier from the snow.
other issues noted: relief shaded maps not matching reality,
Avy airbags not deployed and not working.


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## killclimbz

deagol said:


> Just read the full report, very scary- even with a full crew digging, it took them 25 minutes to reach the buried victim
> It took them a full 50 minutes to remove the skier from the snow.
> other issues noted: relief shaded maps not matching reality,
> Avy airbags not deployed and not working.


Everyone stepping over the roll to keep eyes on the skier was another huge issue. Of course you want someone with eyes on that person, but one person is more than enough. At worst, it should have been two swept. Once that first skier is down in a "safe" zone, they can do the spotting from below. I have to read through it again, but given the approach, radios for all may have been handy. As you well know. 

Airbags, time it took. A lot of small mistakes that added to to a terrible tragedy. Really sucks.


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