# Is Snowboarding's Popularity on the decline?



## Alpine Duke (Jun 21, 2015)

The first time I heard this was from a two planker I was sharing a lift ride with. I thought it to just be his two plank bias. Then I heard it a few other places. The subject came up again on this forum in the thread about Burton being run by and sent off track by a pair of "non-riding" oddities 

One can also find articles like this one http://http://nypost.com/2015/01/23/why-snowboarding-is-fading-in-popularity/

12 years ago I moved back to the states from an island in the East China Sea and was finally by some snow again and decided to get my kids on snow. My skier friend told me "put them on snowboards, all of their friends will be on snowboards and that is what the kids at school will be talking about". I did put them on boards and it was what nearly all of the "kids" were getting into then. 

Since then I have not noted any decline on the slopes at all. Maybe it is just that my own corner of Idaho has plenty still? One of my ski patrol instructors told me just last spring "snowboarding saved the ski industry". He sees the snowboards as "additional clients" that would not be there on skis if they were not riding and sees no fewer than before ??

All food for thought. Many of you are very involved in the industry and I would love to hear your input as you probably know if this is true or not. ??


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## BurtonAvenger (Aug 14, 2007)

Might want to remind the skier that skiing is in decline too. Snowsports as a whole isn't where it used to be. Ebb and flow man, down tick for a while, up tick for a while. It happens. Just shred and not stress it.


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## Alpine Duke (Jun 21, 2015)

BurtonAvenger said:


> Might want to remind the skier that skiing is in decline too. Snowsports as a whole isn't where it used to be. Ebb and flow man, down tick for a while, up tick for a while. It happens. Just shred and not stress it.


Burton put out this movie a while ago and it talked about "a hard economy drying up the snow industry" being responsible for boards even being allowed on the slope way back when. I agree that the snow industry is in decline and I'm sure the riding industry is down because of that...but I would like to know if new slopers are hitting two planks more than riding now??

(BTW, I don't care for the theme in the Burton movie I posted. The theme is that snowboarding was started by Burton and Sims and Sims lost. Winterstick is not even mentioned at all and barely gets a background, cameos in the flick. But the subject is still relevant as listed above)

Edit: I think I jacked the link up in my post. "We Ride" is the movie and it is here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o0nMxxRU6Js


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## BurtonAvenger (Aug 14, 2007)

It's not that more kids are skiing right now. It's that more baby boomers are dying and that more riders ages 28 and up moved away from caring to ride. If every person that in 04/05 season that rode suddenly went snowboarding we'd see a HUGE upswing in participation. 

The fact is there's too many factors for anyone to sit down and put into one forum post to give you a satisfied answer. Just keep doing your thing and ignore the people outside the snowboard industry that keep saying it's dead. Those fucks haven't set foot on a snowboarding in their life.


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## Alpine Duke (Jun 21, 2015)

BurtonAvenger said:


> It's not that more kids are skiing right now. It's that more baby boomers are dying and that more riders ages 28 and up moved away from caring to ride. If every person that in 04/05 season that rode suddenly went snowboarding we'd see a HUGE upswing in participation.
> 
> The fact is there's too many factors for anyone to sit down and put into one forum post to give you a satisfied answer. Just keep doing your thing and ignore the people outside the snowboard industry that keep saying it's dead. Those fucks haven't set foot on a snowboarding in their life.


LOL....probably the best answer to the question I guessk:


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## SGboarder (Jun 24, 2012)

Alpine Duke said:


> The first time I heard this was from a two planker I was sharing a lift ride with. I thought it to just be his two plank bias. Then I heard it a few other places. The subject came up again on this forum in the thread about Burton being run by and sent off track by a pair of "non-riding" oddities


WTF do you mean '"non-riding" oddities'? Greg Dacyshyn made snowboards as far back as high school and was a shop kid for a long time. Anne Marie Dacyshyn has been snowboarding for over 20 years. Both can probably butter circles around most people on this forum.


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## chomps1211 (Mar 30, 2011)

Alpine Duke said:


> …..One of my ski patrol instructors told me just last spring "snowboarding saved the ski industry". *He sees the snowboards as "additional clients" that would not be there on skis if they were not riding...*



^This^
I sucked at skiing, Big Time! So much so, that I ignored snow sports for 30+ years. So for me, that does seem to be a valid point!

I hear similar tales from many of the people I've had conversations with on the lifts. Skiers who tried snowboarding "once" and found it "too hard." Or alternately, snowboarders who tried skiing & didn't like it, or who couldn't ski anymore because of knee problems, etc.!

I have to wonder if the number of people falling into those kinds of categories might actually account for a pretty sizable portion of resort/gear/vacation dollars that otherwise would _*not*_ be spent,.. No? 

Just imagine where the resort, ski and snow sport industry might be if the _only_ option these past 30 years was skiing? If it weren't for snowboarding, I know I would _still_ be ignoring winter! :dunno:

I know we have a few members who have converted from skiing, and a few who still occasionally go back over to "The Dark Side!" But It would be interesting to know how many people would _not_ be out on the slopes at all if their _only_ option was skiing???

Any thoughts,…?


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## speedjason (May 2, 2013)

May have something to do with the weather too. It hasn't been very snowy in the last a couple of years.


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## slyder (Jan 18, 2010)

add to that the structured nature of kids sports. 

Soccer year round, baseball training for my kids started mid January, football training is also year round. 
Families, money, kids time and interest, baby boomers, as BA said so many factors of swings up/down you can't possibly calculate.


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## neni (Dec 24, 2012)

My impression restricted to my mountain... In '92 I've been the first kid in my class to pick up snowboarding. In '94 already half the class had switched from the two planks to one. In early 2000, it had seemed that _everybody_ <25yo was on snowboard. Then the ski tech made a big leap, them old cumbersome long pickets were replaced by short carving skis, way easier to ride. The friends which only rode every now and then switched back to those easier skies cos they're easier to ride than 4d a season on a snowboard. 
Many young kids these days ride freestyle skies and huge pow surfboardish skies here. Only abt 1/3, maybe less I see on boards. Skis nowadays offer a way bigger variety than 20y ago when snowboards were the new cool thing. Now skis are the new cool thing...


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## Alpine Duke (Jun 21, 2015)

SGboarder said:


> WTF do you mean '"non-riding" oddities'? Greg Dacyshyn made snowboards as far back as high school and was a shop kid for a long time. Anne Marie Dacyshyn has been snowboarding for over 20 years. Both can probably butter circles around most people on this forum.


Got it. I don't know the two, but that is definitely the flavor of the thread I listed and that is what I meant. I have no opinion of them.


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## f00bar (Mar 6, 2014)

Snowstorms in general are in decline for most of the middle class. 

20 years ago most of the small affordable areas closed. Now it's a 4-6 hour drive from NYC to get to a decent area. Even for me in an upper middle class town the new of kids in my son's 5th grade who do winter sports us half what it was for me.


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## Alpine Duke (Jun 21, 2015)

f00bar said:


> Snowstorms in general are in decline for most of the middle class.
> 
> 20 years ago most of the small affordable areas closed. Now it's a 4-6 hour drive from NYC to get to a decent area. Even for me in an upper middle class town the new of kids in my son's 5th grade who do winter sports us half what it was for me.


One interesting phenomenon I noticed at the small, local one near me is the perception of no/bad snow being as much of a problem as the actual drought. There were many days that the snow was just fine...not great, but just fine and yet the place was empty. When I talked to some folks they would all say that there was no snow there or bad snow and that is why they weren't going.

However, it is undeniable that we have had years of declining conditions in Western North America and that has to have an impact on snowriding's popularity overall.....but I don't see why that would be disproportional to snowboarding. ?


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## Alpine Duke (Jun 21, 2015)

neni said:


> My impression restricted to my mountain... In '92 I've been the first kid in my class to pick up snowboarding. In '94 already half the class had switched from the two planks to one. In early 2000, it had seemed that _everybody_ <25yo was on snowboard. Then the ski tech made a big leap, them old cumbersome long pickets were replaced by short carving skis, way easier to ride. The friends which only rode every now and then switched back to those easier skies cos they're easier to ride than 4d a season on a snowboard.
> Many young kids these days ride freestyle skies and huge pow surfboardish skies here. Only abt 1/3, maybe less I see on boards. Skis nowadays offer a way bigger variety than 20y ago when snowboards were the new cool thing. Now skis are the new cool thing...


Good points Neni and you are making me rethink an earlier conclusion I had made. The tech jump you talk about means that more skiers now have to have or feel the need to have multiple setups. I think fewer skiers have just one set of skis now. Having 3 sets of high-end skis costs a good bit more than having 3 boards in one's quiver. Also, I know there are plenty of riders with multiple boards, but I know more riders with just one board than skiers with just one set. 

My point is that I see skis going further away from the middle class than boards. ? Which just makes it more perplexing for me. ?


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## BurtonAvenger (Aug 14, 2007)

Skiing has double the cost than snowboarding in terms of equipment. Prices have only recently started going up in snowboarding, why? Everyone bitches that the costs are too high as it is.


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## PorkCereal (Dec 28, 2013)

If it is, that just means less people clogging the mountains for those of us that do want to be there.


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## BurtonAvenger (Aug 14, 2007)

PorkCereal said:


> If it is, that just means less people clogging the mountains for those of us that do want to be there.


Not really what you'll see is less mountains able to stay open so they'll move to the bigger resorts as the smaller close and still clog lift lines. It's a whole healthy industry = healthy life lines. Sick industry = clogged lift lines.


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## snowklinger (Aug 30, 2011)

Hey AlpineDuke, where in the China Sea?

I grew up in Manila.


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## f00bar (Mar 6, 2014)

Stupid autocorrect did snowsports to snowstorms in my last post. So maybe what i said makes more sense now.

The late 80s early 90s obliterated the small mountain industry. At least in New England. Small local mountains allowed those who didn't ski and were middle class to pick up the sport as a family.

Now it seems the only people you see learning are kids who have parents who also ski/ride. The problem with this is given the natural rate of attrition of people who do the sport they aren't making up the numbers.

There needs to be a big push by the snow industry as a whole. They also need to get a winter olympics that is in a friendly time zone and do a much better job next time around pushing the sport as recreational and family friendly, not super pipe crazy extreme.


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## BurtonAvenger (Aug 14, 2007)

That Autocorrect was awesome though. 

The Olympics do not get people into snow sports. THAT IS A FACT! Argue exposure all you want but by and large it doesn't cause an increase.


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## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

The real question is:
Is snowboarding a niche sport or a mainstream sport?

If it's a niche sport, then it doesnt matter if it's "shrinking". BUT, it's gotta get rid of a lot of companies, cause there isn't enough bros to sell your stuff to. Also, it will be bought out of resorts and the market, cause they don't pay for being a bro.

If it's a mainstream sport, then i guess it's gotta get rid of a lot of nonsense. Because it's gotta appeal to the bros, the douches, the punks and the chumps. So it's got to stop bashing on Shaun White and the likes  and embrace it when big names come in and join the fun. 

Personally.... I dont care. I dont make money out of snowboarding..... so it can do whatver it wants as long as there's boards/bindings/boots and mountains to ride.


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## f00bar (Mar 6, 2014)

F1EA said:


> The real question is:
> Is snowboarding a niche sport or a mainstream sport?
> 
> If it's a niche sport, then it doesnt matter if it's "shrinking". BUT, it's gotta get rid of a lot of companies, cause there isn't enough bros to sell your stuff to. Also, it will be bought out of resorts and the market, cause they don't pay for being a bro.
> ...


There's more snowboard companies than there are car companies. ok, maybe not, but you get the point. Just because you can't support an over saturated market doesn't mean you are on your death thralls. It just means there are a lot of clueless business people who didn't understand the market they were getting into.


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## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

f00bar said:


> There's more snowboard companies than there are car companies. ok, maybe not, but you get the point. Just because you can't support an over saturated market doesn't mean you are on your death thralls. It just means there are a lot of clueless business people who didn't understand the market they were getting into.


Yep. But it's saturated because its not big enough or doesnt grow as fast as financial needs grow. Big money wants growth. Exponential, unscaled growth.

Clueless bussiness people is exactly the problem... niche sports and bussinesses do not need to be run by savvy bussiness people. Snowboardig has been in some middle earth for a while and it was ok while the market was growing and snow was falling. But the moment big money comes in, you can't fuck with em: suits and ties want their cash. Lots of it.


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## f00bar (Mar 6, 2014)

F1EA said:


> Yep. But it's saturated because its not big enough or doesnt grow as fast as financial needs grow. Big money wants growth. Exponential, unscaled growth.
> 
> Clueless bussiness people is exactly the problem... niche sports and bussinesses do not need to be run by savvy bussiness people. Snowboardig has been in some middle earth for a while and it was ok while the market was growing and snow was falling. But the moment big money comes in, you can't fuck with em: suits and ties want their cash. Lots of it.


This is why you see so many still privately held companies. It's tough for this industry to keep wallstreet happy with constant 10% growth that they want to see. The downside being that you can't sell stocks for an infusion of cash and have to beg for a loan from a bank when you need cash.

You think Burton is bad now? Imagine what they would be if they had to show constant growth to a bunch of hedge fund managers who flee to the bahamas whenever the snow starts to fall.


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## Rogue (Nov 29, 2014)

Ok say it is in decline, what does that mean? How does it affect me? Why should I care? 

I'm not saying I don't care, I just want to know what the bigger picture is in this. All I can think of is emptier slopes hehehe


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## f00bar (Mar 6, 2014)

Rogue said:


> Ok say it is in decline, what does that mean? How does it affect me? Why should I care?
> 
> I'm not saying I don't care, I just want to know what the bigger picture is in this. All I can think of is emptier slopes hehehe


Less lines, rising ticket prices to make up for it. Eventually everywhere will become a private resort for the uber rich.


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## Rogue (Nov 29, 2014)

neni said:


> Then the ski tech made a big leap, them old cumbersome long pickets were replaced by short carving skis, way easier to ride. The friends which only rode every now and then switched back to those easier skies cos they're easier to ride than 4d a season on a snowboard.


Good point, I remember talking to a skiier who was a snowboarder, had kids who wanted to learn, switched to skiing to help them and found how much better the ski tech was and stuck with skiing. 



Alpine Duke said:


> There were many days that the snow was just fine...not great, but just fine and yet the place was empty. When I talked to some folks they would all say that there was no snow there or bad snow and that is why they weren't going.


I heard over and over all winter long when I told people I'm still riding and they'd say, "you mean there's snow still?" If people here any unfavorable news piece about poor or less than normal/stellar conditions, they immediately write off going. Yes it was a tough season, but yes there was plenty of snow to still ride, if you wanted to. 

I also just realized we had a prolonged recession around 2008 until somewhat recently and an increase of gas prices...people were unemployed and just trying to make ends meet. Dropping a chunk of money for a family or even yourself was out of the question. Forget buying any new gear.


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## f00bar (Mar 6, 2014)

Rogue said:


> I also just realized we had a prolonged recession around 2008 until somewhat recently and an increase of gas prices...people were unemployed and just trying to make ends meet. Dropping a chunk of money for a family or even yourself was out of the question. Forget buying any new gear.


I suspect this is primarily it. I'm still not sure I'm buying into the recovery for middle America. Those with money have made more money. So guess what? The industry has decided to cater to the whales. Making it even less accessible.

Golf has taken a huge hit as well. They'll try to blame Tiger. But in reality it's because people took a time out from spending on it, forced or voluntary. And when that happens it takes a long time to regain traction.


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## SkullAndXbones (Feb 24, 2014)

snowboarding is a recreational sport. the people involved in the huge surge in the late 90s and early 2000s have grown up and may not have any interest in doing a recreational sport anymore. i've lost touch with all my friends that i used to snowboard with back in the early 2000s but occasionally i run into one here and there and i'd be very surprised if any of them still snowboard. some people have stayed the course and some people have moved on. how many adults are involved with any sort of sport? there's a small percentage that does mountain biking. there's some adult slow pitch softball leagues out there. but both are tiny in comparison to how many adults don't participate in these things. they're all sort of niche crowds. in fact, skiing and snowboarding are probably the most popular recreational sports for adults out there when you compare them to the other ones. a lot of people are also struggling for financial security right now and had to cut certain things out of their lives. bottom line is though, snowboarding and skiing aren't going anywhere. there's rises and falls in anything. as a metalhead and a huge fan of horror movies i can't tell you how many times i've heard "metal is dead", "slasher movies are dead", etc. that's such a load of crap. they're not dead. they're not going anywhere. popularity and sales rise and fall all the time. sometimes it just takes someone to come along and do something different.


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## SkullAndXbones (Feb 24, 2014)

on a side note, i also wanna say that snowboarding may have very well saved the skiing industry. how much tech have ski makers borrowed from snowboarding? anyone remember those skis with flat, straight edged tails? did they even have sidecuts? i don't remember. no to mention terrain parks, half pipes and just actual jumps. those didn't even spread across the country until the late 90s. before snowboarding, skiers just had moguls. big deal. who knows where skiing would be now if snowboarding was never created.


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## f00bar (Mar 6, 2014)

SkullAndXbones said:


> on a side note, i also wanna say that snowboarding may have very well saved the skiing industry. how much tech have ski makers borrowed from snowboarding? anyone remember those skis with flat, straight edged tails? did they even have sidecuts? i don't remember. no to mention terrain parks, half pipes and just actual jumps. those didn't even spread across the country until the late 90s. before snowboarding, skiers just had moguls. big deal. who knows where skiing would be now if snowboarding was never created.


I think we give it a little too much credit. Skiers weren't cursing their skis on the way down prior to curved skis. They weren't bitching about what a boring day it's been on the moguls and they wish they'd had something new to do.

It's a bit like saying cruise control and air conditioning saved the auto industry.

Now maybe it did help people progress a little faster so you had a few more people returning after day 4. But honestly I think you either like sliding down the mountain in the freezing cold or you don't.


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## SkullAndXbones (Feb 24, 2014)

i should've worded it a little differently. i meant saved it from taking a huge dive in popularity, not all together. obviously i agree with you. it'd still be there and they may have thought of these things on their own eventually but maybe not before it saw a drop in popularity. you know what i mean? like what we're seeing in both skiing and snowboarding right now. which is why i said "may have". we'll never know, i was thinking more about a butterfly effect type of scenario if snowboarding was never created.


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## f00bar (Mar 6, 2014)

SkullAndXbones said:


> i should've worded it a little differently. i meant saved it from taking a huge dive in popularity, not all together. obviously i agree with you. it'd still be there and they may have thought of these things on their own eventually but maybe not before it saw a drop in popularity. you know what i mean? like what we're seeing in both skiing and snowboarding right now. which is why i said "may have". we'll never know, i was thinking more about a butterfly effect type of scenario if snowboarding was never created.


I will say what it did do was get people to dump a ton of money on new equipment in a short amount of time. It completely blew peoples normal upgrade schedule. At least once. Probably twice as first they introduced the semi parabollic and then a few years later full. So people who may buy every 5-10 years suddenly are buying 2 sets in 5 years.


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## SkullAndXbones (Feb 24, 2014)

but then again, if there was no snowboarding then we'd all be skiing so ignore everything i just said haha.


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## BurtonAvenger (Aug 14, 2007)

F1EA said:


> The real question is:
> Is snowboarding a niche sport or a mainstream sport?
> 
> If it's a niche sport, then it doesnt matter if it's "shrinking". BUT, it's gotta get rid of a lot of companies, cause there isn't enough bros to sell your stuff to. Also, it will be bought out of resorts and the market, cause they don't pay for being a bro.
> ...


The mass culling of the herd is coming. 



F1EA said:


> Yep. But it's saturated because its not big enough or doesnt grow as fast as financial needs grow. Big money wants growth. Exponential, unscaled growth.
> 
> Clueless bussiness people is exactly the problem... niche sports and bussinesses do not need to be run by savvy bussiness people. Snowboardig has been in some middle earth for a while and it was ok while the market was growing and snow was falling. But the moment big money comes in, you can't fuck with em: suits and ties want their cash. Lots of it.


Well it's saturated because certain companies got fat during the salad days and managed to survive. The problem is you get a lot of fucking idiots that suddenly decide they're going to start a brand because they went snowboarding and think they can make money on it. Then they get into it and realize they're fucked. Or they got into the snow industry because they didn't want a real job and then they found out that it is a real job. 



f00bar said:


> This is why you see so many still privately held companies. It's tough for this industry to keep wallstreet happy with constant 10% growth that they want to see. The downside being that you can't sell stocks for an infusion of cash and have to beg for a loan from a bank when you need cash.
> 
> You think Burton is bad now? Imagine what they would be if they had to show constant growth to a bunch of hedge fund managers who flee to the bahamas whenever the snow starts to fall.


Look at all the top snowboard brands in the world. There's a select few that are privately held. By and large most are part of a big conglomerate. 



Rogue said:


> Ok say it is in decline, what does that mean? How does it affect me? Why should I care?
> 
> I'm not saying I don't care, I just want to know what the bigger picture is in this. All I can think of is emptier slopes hehehe


You shouldn't care, it doesn't effect you, just keep doing what you're doing and let the rest of us that work in the snowboard industry freak out and try to fix things. 



SkullAndXbones said:


> snowboarding is a recreational sport. the people involved in the huge surge in the late 90s and early 2000s have grown up and may not have any interest in doing a recreational sport anymore. i've lost touch with all my friends that i used to snowboard with back in the early 2000s but occasionally i run into one here and there and i'd be very surprised if any of them still snowboard. some people have stayed the course and some people have moved on. how many adults are involved with any sort of sport? there's a small percentage that does mountain biking. there's some adult slow pitch softball leagues out there. but both are tiny in comparison to how many adults don't participate in these things. they're all sort of niche crowds. in fact, skiing and snowboarding are probably the most popular recreational sports for adults out there when you compare them to the other ones. a lot of people are also struggling for financial security right now and had to cut certain things out of their lives. bottom line is though, snowboarding and skiing aren't going anywhere. there's rises and falls in anything. as a metalhead and a huge fan of horror movies i can't tell you how many times i've heard "metal is dead", "slasher movies are dead", etc. that's such a load of crap. they're not dead. they're not going anywhere. popularity and sales rise and fall all the time. sometimes it just takes someone to come along and do something different.


Snowboarding isn't just a recreational sport, it's a lifestyle, competitive sport, social gathering, outdoor activity, and a bunch of other things. It's just making sure to capture that in the marketing to get people involved and keep them involved. It's just never seen a slump like this because it's still so young of an industry. 



f00bar said:


> I think we give it a little too much credit. Skiers weren't cursing their skis on the way down prior to curved skis. They weren't bitching about what a boring day it's been on the moguls and they wish they'd had something new to do.
> 
> It's a bit like saying cruise control and air conditioning saved the auto industry.
> 
> Now maybe it did help people progress a little faster so you had a few more people returning after day 4. But honestly I think you either like sliding down the mountain in the freezing cold or you don't.


Skiing was in a drastic decline before snowboarding came about. They weren't saved till the sidecut became the norm. That truly saved skiing.


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## f00bar (Mar 6, 2014)

I'm still going to stick with what will sink or save the snow industry first and foremost is the economy.

Even magnetic bindings won't save things if people are afraid to spend the money. Which they are right now. Hell, my stock portfolio is down 20% this year. I've pretty much stopped looking into a trip for the upcoming season.


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## speedjason (May 2, 2013)

f00bar said:


> I'm still going to stick with what will sink or save the snow industry first and foremost is the economy.
> 
> Even magnetic bindings won't save things if people are afraid to spend the money. Which they are right now. Hell, my stock portfolio is down 20% this year. I've pretty much stopped looking into a trip for the upcoming season.


When the economy is not good, people just don't have that extra money to have fun. Especially when the government is asking more taxes from the middle class.


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## chomps1211 (Mar 30, 2011)

Rogue said:


> ....I heard over and over all winter long when I told people I'm still riding and they'd say, "you mean there's snow still?" If people here any unfavorable news piece about poor or less than normal/stellar conditions, they immediately write off going. Yes it was a tough season, but yes there was plenty of snow to still ride, if you wanted to.
> 
> I also just realized we had a prolonged recession around 2008 until somewhat recently and an increase of gas prices...people were unemployed and just trying to make ends meet. Dropping a chunk of money for a family or even yourself was out of the question. Forget buying any new gear.


Rogue,.. Excellent points!!! And when you consider each of those potential reasons for a decline in attendance/participation,..? They both involve a lot of people that aren't near as obsessed with snowboarding as many of the more "core" folks on this forum! 

You've made a number of statements about falling "head over heels" for boarding. I felt the same way from my very first time. Even after biffing so bad I had to talk the ski patrol out of stretchering me off the hill. 

In fact,.. I discovered snowboarding in '11 right smack in the middle of the resession! I about spent myself into a debtors prison buying gear, lift tickets, and taking trips up north. I spent a fortune on gas, lodging etc. But I was like a junkie!! I was hooked and having sooo much fun, I didn't care that I was maxing out my credit. (...my only real regret? I didn't pop for a trip out west while I still had something left on my cards!) :lol:

But, being single with no kids,... Only person I could hurt was me!! So I said Fuck It!! I'm having too much fun. Most grown ups,.. The grown snowboarding hayday Baby boomers and whatnot? They either can't, won't, or are far too responsible to do that. 

Not everybody finds or invests so much personal satisfaction and joy in snowboarding the way some of us have. (...not everyone is free to be as fiscally irresponsible as I have been about it either!) :dunno: :laugh:

I guess Once you think about it in those terms,.. It's not really all _that_ surprising that fewer ppl are getting to the slopes these past few years. :facepalm1:


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## ThredJack (Mar 18, 2014)

As someone brought up, it's a snowball effect.

Less people in lift lines=higher ticket prices. Higher ticket prices=less people in lift lines. It's a catch 22.

How many people out there already have gear that's only a few years old, and still has plenty of use in it, but can't swing the price of a lift ticket, more than once or twice a year, if at all? Quite a few, I'd imagine.

"I can't afford it this week, maybe next." Next week comes: "Maybe next week." Rinse and repeat.

Not only is that lift tickets not sold, it's also gear not sold. If I get a nice tax return, I'm not buying a board when I'm not using the one I have. Maybe I use it to buy some tickets for the rest of the season, and a pass for next year. But then maybe I just take the SO on a nice vacation to Hawaii, since the season is pretty much over.


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## Rogue (Nov 29, 2014)

SkullAndXbones said:


> on a side note, i also wanna say that snowboarding may have very well saved the skiing industry. how much tech have ski makers borrowed from snowboarding? anyone remember those skis with flat, straight edged tails? did they even have sidecuts? i don't remember. no to mention terrain parks, half pipes and just actual jumps. those didn't even spread across the country until the late 90s. before snowboarding, skiers just had moguls. big deal. who knows where skiing would be now if snowboarding was never created.


I don't know how much we can take credit for in these areas, but I certainly think there was crossover. Bringing skaters to the mountain with snowboarding opened up a whole new world for snow sports. There was an entirely new way of looking at how to get down the same mountain. 



chomps1211 said:


> In fact,.. I discovered snowboarding in '11 right smack in the middle of the resession! I about spent myself into a debtors prison buying gear, lift tickets, and taking trips up north. I spent a fortune on gas, lodging etc. But I was like a junkie!! I was hooked and having sooo much fun, I didn't care that I was maxing out my credit. (...my only real regret? I didn't pop for a trip out west while I still had something left on my cards!) :lol:
> 
> But, being single with no kids,... Only person I could hurt was me!! So I said Fuck It!! I'm having too much fun. Most grown ups,.. The grown snowboarding hayday Baby boomers and whatnot? They either can't, won't, or are far too responsible to do that.
> 
> ...


That's about the time I started snowboarding as well. Once I really got into it, each year I got a pass that allowed me more days to ride, and I made use of it. I have had numerous people ask about it being so expensive, but passes pay for themselves if you just USE them.I heard someone in line this season on a powder day (one of the few) say "it was the most expensive lift ticket for $500" The joke being they had only gone once. I expect a lot less people will buy season passes this year because of previous conditions. 
It's actually cheaper than taking a vacation in the summer that only lasts one week. My vacation is 7-8 months long hahaha. If you already have the gear? Even better. Pack your lunch. It gets expensive if you can't stop buying snowboards, bindings, boots, gloves, helmets, etc etc etc hahahaha but hey that supports the industry so it's a win-win right? 

The catch though? Like you, I'm single and no kids so I can fully support my new found passion. Less responsibilities, more riding.


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## SkullAndXbones (Feb 24, 2014)

"not enough snow" sounds like first world, rockies/west coast problems haha. my local mountain only gets about 65 inches of snow per year. you wouldn't believe how happy i get when i actually get to ride on real snow.


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## neni (Dec 24, 2012)

SkullAndXbones said:


> but then again, if there was no snowboarding then we'd all be skiing so ignore everything i just said haha.


Not me. I was an avid skier as kid/teen but had so many injuries at the knees at races, when I saw a board the first time, I knew I'll never put a foot again on two planks (k, I did out of curiosity a decade later when everybody was marveling abt how awesome the new skis were... yep, they got way better, but they're still skis, not my world). I either snowboard or don't hit the mtn at all. 



BurtonAvenger said:


> It's just making sure to capture that in the marketing to get people involved and keep them involved. It's just never seen a slump like this because it's still so young of an industry.


This is probably the essence of it. It was new and boomed in a time when a big generation grew up with good cold winters which resulted in a big sales boom which now has to adapt to a new situation.

Again, just my perspective: my generation was the biggest baby boom in our canton (=state). In school in the 80ties, it was just normal that _every_ kid skied, actually it was mandatory for all pupils to join skiing camps in winter, it was part of school. Winters were long, lot of snow. So that big generation grew up with "snow in the blood" and hopped on the boom train when snowboards came up. 

This has changed a lot. Nowadays, there are no mandatory winter camps anymore. So kids don't get hooked to wintersports from scratch, they need to get primed by their parents: already a loss of a portion cos not all parents will do. Plus there are not that many kids anymore anyway; family structures have changed. 
And I think another point is that a big junk of the kids born today are children of the 25% imigrants which stem from parents who have no connection at all to wintersports and as such don't get hooked to neither skiing nor snowboarding. So we have a big loss of kids getting introduced into wintersports and future buyers of gear.

Plus winters have become less obvious: sure, there's still snow _on_ the mtns, but hardly anymore down in the lowlands where 99% of the ppl live. When I've been a kid, we were skiing on the hills in the lowlands cos the entire country was covered in snow, we grew up with snow being a natural part of life. Nowadays, snow is not as omnipresent anymore. One has to drive to a mtn. They don't get tuned alla timet hey there's snow, lets go skiing. They see green pastures and don't think of wintersports. Not everyone gets excited by the first snowflake and runs to wax the ski/board by the first sight of winter. They need a trigger to get excited enough to dust off their planks and this trigger, the snow, is getting more and more scarce.




f00bar said:


> Now maybe it did help people progress a little faster so you had a few more people returning after day 4. But honestly I think you either like sliding down the mountain in the freezing cold or you don't.


I'm positive that the newer easier skis increased the number of ppl who "like sliding on snow". Old skis were a PITA to learn and get decent. With 4d a year you could never get decent. Snowboarding is similarly hard to get over the initial fall-fall-fall stage. With the new skis, even a 4d a year tourist has the chance to get to a stage pretty quickly where one can enjoy sliding and he'll probably repeat his once a year vacation. I've the impression that the number of "bad" skiers has increased on the mtn... 

Same goes for ppl hitting BC. With them old skis you had to be a very good skier to ski pow. BC was restricted to avid skiers, mostly locals. With them superwide new pow skis, even intermediate skiers can ski pow. 



BurtonAvenger said:


> The Olympics do not get people into snow sports. THAT IS A FACT! Argue exposure all you want but by and large it doesn't cause an increase.


I'm not sure... maybe it's not that a medal won in a sport which is already widespread will change anything, but in '98, the _introduction_ of snowboarding to Olympics (plus a Swiss winning) led to a huge awareness here. Suddently everybody was talking abt this new sport and every kid wanted to try it. I'm not sure it the trend would have spread without that huge media presence.




SkullAndXbones said:


> snowboarding is a recreational sport. the people involved in the huge surge in the late 90s and early 2000s have grown up and may not have any interest in doing a recreational sport anymore.





Rogue said:


> Ok say it is in decline, what does that mean? How does it affect me? Why should I care?


Just my gut feeling: I expect a decline of brands and models. I for my part don't expect that it will affect me much, cos I assume that decline will mostly affect the all mountain sector cos there's the most overlap - gut feeling. But I also expect an increase in splitboards here. Many former snowboarders my age had swapped to touring skis cos hiking with a solid on your back is PITA. Splits are yet not well known here. But _every_ former snowboarder I meet while hiking who sees a split the first time gets shiny eyes and asks a lot of questions. I'm positive that we will see a big increase in splits the next years. It's just a niche, but it's growing. Hiking (in summer AND winter) has become very popular and I assume it's cos the baby boom snow in blood generation reached the age where touring has become the interesting thing (eh... we were hauled to go hiking with parents and hated it in the "I hate everything" teen years. But growing older, one begins to love what you grew up with. In our 20ties, nobody was hiking. Nowadays, almost all my friends hike in summer and almost all of them who still do wintersports ogle with touring rather than spend days on crowded resorts (resorts are still crowded cos many have closed and slope miles have decreased cos one can't ride lower sections anymore. So even if less ppl ski/ride, one's still crowded)


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## Phedder (Sep 13, 2014)

chomps1211 said:


> I know we have a few members who have converted from skiing, and a few who still occasionally go back over to "The Dark Side!" But It would be interesting to know how many people would _not_ be out on the slopes at all if their _only_ option was skiing???
> 
> Any thoughts,??


I had done about 15 days skiing before I tried, and instantly swapped, to snowboarding. Swore I'd never ski again. Then I hurt my ankle, not major but enough to keep me off the board for 3 weeks (very tough when working at a resort with a pow day every week!) Turned out a ski boot was supportive enough I had almost no pain skiing, so I guess I'm firmly in the 'just want to slide down a mountain' camp. Back on the board now, and have just ordered a brand new board to celebrate that fact. At full retail too, guess I'm also in your wreckless spending for love of the sport camp, chomps 

From an inside perspective here in NZ working in a rentals department, our ratio of skiers to boarders would be close to 10:1. We are a smaller, more family focused field with school groups booked every day, skiing is just easier to learn. I agree with someone who previously said they see more bad skiers around, compared to snowboarding it still has a more accessible appeal, whereas most snowboarders are more committed. I also deal with a lot of 'I found these in the neighbors garage, can you adjust the bindings to fit this boot?' And they hand me a pair of 200cm long straight skis, that's always a fun one.


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## BurtonAvenger (Aug 14, 2007)

Phedder said:


> I had done about 15 days skiing before I tried, and instantly swapped, to snowboarding. Swore I'd never ski again. Then I hurt my ankle, not major but enough to keep me off the board for 3 weeks (very tough when working at a resort with a pow day every week!) Turned out a ski boot was supportive enough I had almost no pain skiing, so I guess I'm firmly in the 'just want to slide down a mountain' camp. Back on the board now, and have just ordered a brand new board to celebrate that fact. At full retail too, guess I'm also in your wreckless spending for love of the sport camp, chomps
> 
> From an inside perspective here in NZ working in a rentals department, our ratio of skiers to boarders would be close to 10:1. We are a smaller, more family focused field with school groups booked every day, skiing is just easier to learn. I agree with someone who previously said they see more bad skiers around, compared to snowboarding it still has a more accessible appeal, whereas most snowboarders are more committed. I also deal with a lot of 'I found these in the neighbors garage, can you adjust the bindings to fit this boot?' And they hand me a pair of 200cm long straight skis, that's always a fun one.


FYI if you're starting to have ankle issues it's time for a stiffer snowboard boot. I had to make that jump a few years ago and it changed everything going to one of the stiffest boots on the market. That ankle support is key.


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## Psi-Man (Aug 31, 2009)

BurtonAvenger said:


> FYI if you're starting to have ankle issues it's time for a stiffer snowboard boot. I had to make that jump a few years ago and it changed everything going to one of the stiffest boots on the market. That ankle support is key.


What boot is that BA?


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## BurtonAvenger (Aug 14, 2007)

Psi-Man said:


> What boot is that BA?


K2 Thraxis, going to another pair this year.


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## Psi-Man (Aug 31, 2009)

Nice boots, I'm gonna have to go to BOA eventually. Not a big fan of speedlace and traditional lace boots seem to be getting more scarce.


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## BurtonAvenger (Aug 14, 2007)

Psi-Man said:


> Nice boots, I'm gonna have to go to BOA eventually. Not a big fan of speedlace and traditional lace boots seem to be getting more scarce.


It's come a LONG way. I've ridden BOA since I believe it was the second generation and every year I have less and less issues. Although I could just be getting old and that's it.


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## Mystery2many (Aug 14, 2013)

I'm going boa this year. Hated my first experience with them but I've learned a lot about boots and want to give it another try. BA I think I'm going with the focus boa Dialogue and down sizing where its pushing my toes, do you think I should heat mold or just endure and ride till they break in?


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## sabatoa (Jan 18, 2011)

slyder said:


> add to that the structured nature of kids sports.
> 
> Soccer year round, baseball training for my kids started mid January, football training is also year round.
> Families, money, kids time and interest, baby boomers, as BA said so many factors of swings up/down you can't possibly calculate.


This. I'm trying like damndest to get my nephew snowboarding. He likes it a lot, but he's involved in organized sports and almost every weekends in the winter he's tied up with that. 

I had him out last winter and on his last day his parents were telling him to take it easy so that he wasn't too tired for his match the next day. ugh.


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## BurtonAvenger (Aug 14, 2007)

Mystery2many said:


> I'm going boa this year. Hated my first experience with them but I've learned a lot about boots and want to give it another try. BA I think I'm going with the focus boa Dialogue and down sizing where its pushing my toes, do you think I should heat mold or just endure and ride till they break in?


I would say in that instance definitely heat mold, especially if you have aftermarket insoles. Just swing into Powder Tools and have Bernie and the crew help you out, those guys will get you dialed.


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## Mystery2many (Aug 14, 2013)

BurtonAvenger said:


> I would say in that instance definitely heat mold, especially if you have aftermarket insoles. Just swing into Powder Tools and have Bernie and the crew help you out, those guys will get you dialed.


Yeah, I love powder tools, pretty much the only good board shop in Steamboat. I use Remind and might try out Stomp.


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## BurtonAvenger (Aug 14, 2007)

In my opinion Stomp is crap, save your money stick with Remind and take the money you would spend on the Stomp and buy beer for the guys in the shop. Win win for everyone!


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## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

f00bar said:


> This is why you see so many still privately held companies. It's tough for this industry to keep wallstreet happy with constant 10% growth that they want to see. The downside being that you can't sell stocks for an infusion of cash and have to beg for a loan from a bank when you need cash.
> 
> You think Burton is bad now? Imagine what they would be if they had to show constant growth to a bunch of hedge fund managers who flee to the bahamas whenever the snow starts to fall.


Exactly. The market used to be so good that it was able to sustain niche-type companies and their inherent inneffciency. Not so anymore... that Burton letter proves it. It's dog-eat-dog now. Not enough market for smaller companies to let others grow.

Basically... lil niche brand A has to fight niche brand B to survive. And people involved in either can't really get their ideas accross because there simply isn't enough market to sell stuff to.




Rogue said:


> Ok say it is in decline, what does that mean? How does it affect me? Why should I care?
> 
> I'm not saying I don't care, I just want to know what the bigger picture is in this. All I can think of is emptier slopes hehehe


Mainstream sports = mass production driven. You will find snowboards at Walmart; little kids and people from anywhere will have snowboarding in their minds... Mtns are full of people wanting to try snowboarding. Why? because big money comes in. And big money doesn't care if snowboarders leave a gap between their helmet and goggles. China manufacturing, fewer pro models, quality goes both ways (better for high end stuff, worse for the entry level 2 day a yr guy). Bros are out. Big money doesn't care your bro has een there since the begining and he's out because he can't even spell and his teeth look weird. Can't have him being the face of our brand. Bye bye bro.

Niche = big money is out. Not enough market to make their growth charts sellable to suit and ties. So it takes its money with it. 
Fewer niche brands which can sell boards at $900 because they're core and made in america and you have less choice. This is a lie of course... they're $900 because niche brands are innefficent and can't manufacture overseas because they don't have the volume/operation in place to make it feasible. Bros are in! yay. Who cares if my bro couldn't add.... expenses were 10k not 1k d'oh! Who cares, our boards go for $900 a pop...... that'll cover the margin.
Snowboarding stuff is harder to find (ie slope-side shops will not bother much because what for? why have x sq ft of your shop dedicated to the 5-10 hipsters that show up wanting to snowboard?). 
Fewer young kids getting into the sport. This is the big hit. Little kids/teenagers are the most gullible to big money advertising... and if big money decides they will ski, they will ski. 

... and so on. 
I've exaggerated, but somewhere between niche and mainstream is where the sport is at right now.

Skateboarding and surfing went through that phase.....

Couple that, with less and less snow each yr and it's tough to keep things going. I will though.


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## Rogue (Nov 29, 2014)

@Neni, I totally agree with the split boarding...I hiked for the first time this season and all I could think of was the new possibilities a splitboard would open up. I'm not in a position to do that yet, but the seed has been planted. Especially as you mentioned higher snow elevation, split boarding gives you access you wouldn't otherwise have. The last two years, maybe more, the low levels have remained high which for normal (not die hard shred heads hehe) if they don't see the snow they think it doesn't exist on the actual mountain. 

The addition of snowboarding to the Olympics blew up in the media and yes, with Shaun White winning medals, snowboarding became a household name for the first time. I'm not sure subsequent Olympics will pull in the same amount of people, however. Especially when people are watching tricks we have no chance of EVER doing.


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## Phedder (Sep 13, 2014)

BurtonAvenger said:


> FYI if you're starting to have ankle issues it's time for a stiffer snowboard boot. I had to make that jump a few years ago and it changed everything going to one of the stiffest boots on the market. That ankle support is key.


Yeah I'll be buying a pair in 2 weeks, after our hill closes I'll be spending until the end of our season in Queenstown which is where the nearest decent shops are too. Not sure a stiffer boot would have changed much injury wise as there was a lot of force and compression going on, but it'll certainly help my riding now. Only time I feel pain is deep toe side turns in chunder or landing toe heavy.


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## Mig Fullbag (Apr 15, 2014)

BurtonAvenger said:


> FYI if you're starting to have ankle issues it's time for a stiffer snowboard boot. I had to make that jump a few years ago and it changed everything going to one of the stiffest boots on the market. That ankle support is key.


Quoted because its the [email protected] truth!



BurtonAvenger said:


> K2 Thraxis, going to another pair this year.


Are they stiffer than 2008 or 2014 Driver Xs? Other years were not as stiff, in my experience.


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## Alpine Duke (Jun 21, 2015)

Phedder said:


> Then I hurt my ankle, not major but enough to keep me off the board for 3 weeks (very tough when working at a resort with a pow day every week!) Turned out a ski boot was supportive enough I had almost no pain skiing, so I guess I'm firmly in the 'just want to slide down a mountain' camp.


@Phedder, if you have ankle issues like this in the future you should give hardboots a try. Though they are intended for Alpine snowboards they work fine with other decks strong enough for hardboot bindings. My friend rides hardboots on his Winterstick in the Pow!


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## BurtonAvenger (Aug 14, 2007)

Rogue said:


> The addition of snowboarding to the Olympics blew up in the media and yes, with Shaun White winning medals, snowboarding became a household name for the first time. I'm not sure subsequent Olympics will pull in the same amount of people, however. Especially when people are watching tricks we have no chance of EVER doing.


Name the first three medalists for snowboarding halfpipe without googling it. Then name every Olympic halfpipe medalist since then. No one cares or remembers that shit. No legacy for a contest rider. That's It, That's All did more for snowboarding than the Olympics. 



Mig Fullbag said:


> Are they stiffer than 2008 or 2014 Driver Xs? Other years were not as stiff, in my experience.


In my opinion, yes. 



Alpine Duke said:


> @Phedder, if you have ankle issues like this in the future you should give hardboots a try. Though they are intended for Alpine snowboards they work fine with other decks strong enough for hardboot bindings. My friend rides hardboots on his Winterstick in the Pow!


Woah there buddy we're trying to go forward here, not backwards. Take that ski boot stuff out of here!


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## f00bar (Mar 6, 2014)

I still believe the Olympics are key to the 4 year cyclic boost in the industry. For whatever reason the industry failed to do a good job, probably because they put all their eggs in the Flying Salami cleaning house and when he didn't they didn't have a backup plan.

As an industry what they need to do is spend a little bit of the money they do have and make some real segments to show the industry as more than death defying pipe that there is no way 99% of mothers would send out Jr to go do.

The sport grew super fast as an extreme sport. Now it's time to show it's more than that.


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## BurtonAvenger (Aug 14, 2007)

Pro models and super pros do not sell boards anymore. THAT IS A FACT! What they need to do is put all the movie catalogs on Netflix, Amazon Prime, and Hulu so people can watch them on demand. That would increase more participation than some stupid fucking contest that happens every 4 years.


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## f00bar (Mar 6, 2014)

BurtonAvenger said:


> Pro models and super pros do not sell boards anymore. THAT IS A FACT! What they need to do is put all the movie catalogs on Netflix, Amazon Prime, and Hulu so people can watch them on demand. That would increase more participation than some stupid fucking contest that happens every 4 years.


Why would people who don't know anything about it watch movies about it? Those movies don't become interesting until you've already got an interest in the sport.

As a society we are programmed to buy into whatever mass media tells us to. As a whole for some reason we trust those stupid segments on the Olympics.

A 10 minute segment showing Jr riding and following mom and dad, or better yet a mom,dad, and jr learning together would have done way more.

Honestly, I think they should have also focused more on the women than the men.

Let's look at soccer for an example. The industry has poured a ton of money at the media and now it's all over ESPN and Fox Sports. This is how you grow a sport. Jam it down peoples throat. 

Americans didn't want to care about soccer. But we were told we had to enough that we're starting to buy into it.

If you aren't willing to do that then don't bitch about how your revenues are dropping and the sport if failing.


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## larrytbull (Oct 30, 2013)

f00bar said:


> A 10 minute segment showing Jr riding and following mom and dad, or better yet a mom,dad, and jr learning together would have done way more.


Totally agree. Biggest revelation for me was when Ski/Board Shop told me that Snowboarding was better for my knees that skiing and I should try that instead.

I was in there trying to find a pair of "comfy ski boots"

Till then I thought

1. you had to be in great shape to board
2. you had to be younger
3. boarding was bad for my knees


My main riding partners , are my friend who skis, and his son's who ski, 
(the kids are now moving to snowboards, after seeing all the tricks my son does in the park and on the mountain).

If the common knowledge/marketing told families, that snowboarding is attainable for the average joe. it would move the dial in the right way. 

we see the wrong thinking/marketing in many mountains who won't teach kids or promote riding till later ages
(how many threads have we see on this board where parentsd want kid to learn to board , but mountain has an age limit).

On the + side, Burton has it's riglit program and learn to ride. perhaps the other mfrs should band together to provide a like program at other hills. I see this alot with skiing


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## BurtonAvenger (Aug 14, 2007)

Why do people watch bullshit conspiracy theorist documentaries on Netflix? Why do they watch B grade crap movies? Because it recommends them to it. I know more people that have watched Deeper, Further, and Higher on Netflix and have been interested in snowboarding than the Olympics. 

Soccer outside the U.S. is the number one sport in the world buddy. It took over 20 plus years to get it the recognition it needed in the States and that's with every kid having summer soccer leagues playing it. It's popularity here is more or less from my generation growing up playing it and being interested in it, not because Fox or ESPN suddenly decided that it was something they needed to do. 

This belief that the Olympics matter is a crock of shit. The only Olympics that mattered were the first one, after that it hasn't done shit. FIS doesn't do shit. Dew Tour doesn't do shit. If you want contests to drive traffic then it needs to be more like Street League for skateboarding. That's how you do a contest to drive interaction. Everyone likes to say how the U.S. Open drives snowboarding, that contest used to get 40 to 50k worth of spectators it hasn't topped 25k in years. More people show up for the free concert than do to watch the events live now. 

Hawt Dogz and Hand Rails live streaming does more for snowboarding participation than the Olympics. 

CONTESTS do not nor ever will they drive participation. It doesn't look attainable. If anything The Olympics have hurt snowboarding. 

Mass media has always hurt snowboarding too. From the "snowboarders with guns on the slopes" to "snowboarding is dying" articles. It's always been against it.


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## f00bar (Mar 6, 2014)

BurtonAvenger said:


> CONTESTS do not nor ever will they drive participation. It doesn't look attainable. If anything The Olympics have hurt snowboarding.
> 
> Mass media has always hurt snowboarding too. From the "snowboarders with guns on the slopes" to "snowboarding is dying" articles. It's always been against it.


You're focusing on the competition, not the fact that you have the exposure of the entire nation for 2 weeks. It's about investing and driving the filler in between the competition. You are right, the competitions themselves don't matter that much. Heck, I'd be willing to question whether they even fill 50% of the airtime.

The Olympics aren't about medals, or the competitors. It's about begging for money to be poured into the sports and their industry. The competition is just there to get people glued to their tvs or whatever media so they can sell a product.

All I'm saying is every 4 years is a great time for the industry to take advantage of a lot of eyes looking at the sport. And in my opinion the last one they failed pretty miserably at it.


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## Argo (Feb 25, 2010)

Soccer is here now because of two reasons, the huge influx of Mexicans in the US and the generation from 25 to 40 year old people that played in monster leagues as kids. It was all the rage as a newer and inexpensive team sport that our parents could afford to put us in for spring and fall. 

All the Mexican, central American and south American people have had it for way longer than us and just expect it to be there.

Do similar with snow sports and it happens there too. The industry has to drive it though and the only one that does is Burton plus some of the mega resorts.


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## speedjason (May 2, 2013)

The other thing is the vibe attached to snowboarding from the early years. It's still lingering around even to this day and age. Parents would tell their kids who ski to avoid snowboarders because they are shady people. Other thing is it seems like snowboarding is just not as professional as skiing and a lot of older people don't like that. Just like skateboarding. I have a friend who skis and I have been trying to get him to try snowboarding and he would always say it's kids stuff. I did laugh at him for ripping his pants open sliding off the box tho.:happy:


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## Argo (Feb 25, 2010)

That is probably a regional feel on snowboarding. There are alot of places it differs. Throw some families in commercials ripping together, not pipes and mega jumps.


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## mojo maestro (Jan 6, 2009)

All the boarders I know are definitely shady.............


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## BurtonAvenger (Aug 14, 2007)

3.5 years of nothing, 5 months of lead up, 2 weeks of competition, then back to nothing. It's a waste of resources to put any effort into thinking it effects snowboarding in any way, shape, or form. 

You also realize that every rider that goes to the Olympics has to be pulled from all their sponsors promotional material? That unless you are an "official" sponsor you can't do shit for snowboarding. The Olympics are a cash grab for The Olympics, nothing more. 

The Olympics suck. Waste of time and money for snowboarding to throw any resources into it. It would be better suited to take the money you might put behind that and partner with a media distribution company that has global presence and can put what snowboarding actually is in front of them. This means going past the traditional routes and getting stuff on Netflix, Hulu, Amazon Prime, etc. etc. That's what's going to change things. 

On top of that it would be good to see more brands selling snowboarding as a group lifestyle activity or social gathering. A way to say "hey lets go do this fun physical activity then cook some brats in the parking lot and tailgate". That makes it far more approachable. 

It's like the whole Yawgoons effect. Those kids have literally nothing in terms of what would be considered marketable snowboarding. Yet through DIY creativity and learning filming they've created something that when it drops on the Internet young and old stop and watch it. Why? Because over 50% of what they're doing looks attainable. The "Oh I don't have a big mountain or super park to ride, but I can carve off a roller like those guys" works. 

The biggest issue is the age of some of the people collectively running snowboarding. They've gotten old and are afraid of leaving their comfort zone. Hence why you see so much regurgitated marketing like "by riders for riders" and "putting the fun back into snowboard". Where the fuck did the fun go guys? I've been riding for over 20 seasons and I still get as excited to ride every day as I did my first time. That's FUN! There needs to be a bigger changing of the guard to get the right people into the right positions. This industry also isn't as hard as it used to be so now everyone is all "fluffy bunny hugging and coddling" instead of saying "you suck, fuck off". So what you get is a bunch of people that don't want real jobs so they say "I like snowboarding (note don't love, just like) and go circle jerk people of the same mindset off to get into positions that influence snowboarding. So what happens is you have a bunch of half asses that get into the industry realize it's work, but stick to the status quo, and look to what has worked to continuing to work. That right there is the insanity of the snow industry. 

Case in point in 2002 I was working for a shop. eBay was this new thing that was starting to take off and I noticed we had a ton of gear laying around that from dealing with people on other forums/sites knew they wanted. I suggested to the owner "why don't we just sell these at the end of the season, up our sell through, and then we can push inline product in the fall." The owners response "Internet sales are a fade, people will always buy in store, and we tried selling a board on eBay once it didn't sell". So I got shot down and told the Internet didn't matter. 

I left that shop and went to work for another shop in the same town 2 seasons later. He shows up to talk to the owners and says "We need to band together and not mount, tune, adjust, or fix anything from people that didn't buy from us and bought online. This is hurting our sales, we can fix this by convincing (shaming) people to just shop with us. We'll all just band together and make it impossible to get what we need." His logic was fuck you, we'll force you back, rather than adapt. 

Flash forward to three years ago and he's in a meeting with some people I know talking about how to improve floor traffic and still on his fuck the Internet kick. People inform him that Internet is now the new standard. He's trying to figure out his web presence, he missed the boat. His kid is now working in the shop and running it with the same mindset daddy had. Seriously you grew up with the Internet and you think what your dad did while having diminishing returns is still going to work. Yes, you have the proximity to a ski resort on your side, but why are you fighting to keep half the sales you had, when you could have expanded and gotten double the sales of your peak?

This is the mindset of the majority of people in the snow industry. No one wants to leave their comfort zone and think outside the box. So in 10 days I'll have done Angry for 8 years, done online reviews for over 10 years, and you want to know something? It's taken me consistently doing reviews year after year to finally get the companies to understand that consumers don't care about getting their info from the local shop guy, they'll just go online and find it where they want to. I have a proven track record of influencing sales and what not and companies are just now thinking this is what they need to do? WHAT! THE! FUCK!

So you can see where and why this problem exists. It all ties into the greater brand of snowboarding. It's like the shop I work at now. We aren't selling you a product, we're selling you an experience. You might come in wanting X which isn't the right thing for you, so we'll inform you, get interested in you, and sell you Y because it will make your experience better and if you have a good time you'll spread the stoke. 

If every person that loves snowboarding got one person to snowboard and love it and keep with it, we'd double our numbers in one season. That's all it honestly takes.


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## f00bar (Mar 6, 2014)

Argo said:


> Soccer is here now because of two reasons, the huge influx of Mexicans in the US and the generation from 25 to 40 year old people that played in monster leagues as kids. It was all the rage as a newer and inexpensive team sport that our parents could afford to put us in for spring and fall.
> 
> All the Mexican, central American and south American people have had it for way longer than us and just expect it to be there.
> 
> Do similar with snow sports and it happens there too. The industry has to drive it though and the only one that does is Burton plus some of the mega resorts.


I'm not sure that's entirely true. Mexicans don't watch Premiere league (as a whole) and they are covered by the Spanish speaking networks that they have. The non Spanish speaker networks concentrate on Premiere League because a whole ton of money has been spent to make it relevant.

For better or worse they were able to make it Hip to be a soccer fan because Hipsters like nothing more than being told what to like.


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## larrytbull (Oct 30, 2013)

BurtonAvenger said:


> Case in point in 2002 I was working for a shop. eBay was this new thing that was starting to take off and I noticed we had a ton of gear laying around that from dealing with people on other forums/sites knew they wanted. I suggested to the owner "why don't we just sell these at the end of the season, up our sell through, and then we can push inline product in the fall." The owners response "Internet sales are a fade, people will always buy in store, and we tried selling a board on eBay once it didn't sell". So I got shot down and told the Internet didn't matter.
> 
> I left that shop and went to work for another shop in the same town 2 seasons later. He shows up to talk to the owners and says "We need to band together and not mount, tune, adjust, or fix anything from people that didn't buy from us and bought online. This is hurting our sales, we can fix this by convincing (shaming) people to just shop with us. We'll all just band together and make it impossible to get what we need." His logic was fuck you, we'll force you back, rather than adapt.



Had the above happen to me at a local shop.
Bought the kid his first board boots binding there, was going to buy a new board from same place, but his binding prices were way to high, asked him to come down a bit, he would not budge a cent (full retail) Told him no worries I can get bindings elsewhere, but i would still buy the board. the shop owner then told me if i did that he would not service the board if i purchased bindings somewhere else. At that moment I left the shop never to return, did not buy board. Fat lot of good that attitude did for him.
:finger1:


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## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

Argo said:


> Soccer is here now because of two reasons, the huge influx of Mexicans in the US and the generation from 25 to 40 year old people that played in monster leagues as kids. It was all the rage as a newer and inexpensive team sport that our parents could afford to put us in for spring and fall.
> 
> All the Mexican, central American and south American people have had it for way longer than us and just expect it to be there.
> 
> Do similar with snow sports and it happens there too. The industry has to drive it though and the only one that does is Burton plus some of the mega resorts.


lol
It's huge in europe too and been that way for a looong time. Where the vast majority of other non-mexican americans come from. And that didnt make a difference.


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## f00bar (Mar 6, 2014)

larrytbull said:


> Had the above happen to me at a local shop.
> Bought the kid his first board boots binding there, was going to buy a new board from same place, but his binding prices were way to high, asked him to come down a bit, he would not budge a cent (full retail) Told him no worries I can get bindings elsewhere, but i would still buy the board. the shop owner then told me if i did that he would not service the board if i purchased bindings somewhere else. At that moment I left the shop never to return, did not buy board. Fat lot of good that attitude did for him.
> :finger1:


It used to be back in the ski days that they would give the old "These bindings are too old and there's a recall. It's illegal for us to mount them"


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## Argo (Feb 25, 2010)

So you don't think that all these immigrants watch soccer on TV where ever they find it? Telemundo or fox doesn't matter, it is the foundation that has been being laid for 30 or 40 years by the industry. I know I only watch soccer because I have played it since being a child and my son has too. I always have a ball in my truck, I actually have no idea what league is what, I just watch soccer like a good Mexican.


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## Argo (Feb 25, 2010)

F1EA said:


> lol
> It's huge in europe too and been that way for a looong time. Where the vast majority of other non-mexican americans come from. And that didnt make a difference.


We are talking about the US, I'd venture to guess that Latinos as a whole make up 90% of the immigrants in the us in the past 20 years.

Aside from that your making my point more solid given every single person coming to the us over the past few decades has soccer/futball ingrained in their soul.


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## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

Argo said:


> So you don't think that all these immigrants watch soccer on TV where ever they find it? Telemundo or fox doesn't matter, it is the foundation that has been being laid for 30 or 40 years by the industry. I know I only watch soccer because I have played it since being a child and my son has too. I always have a ball in my truck, I actually have no idea what league is what, I just watch soccer like a good Mexican.


I think ALL immigrants watch soccer, not just mexicans. Which pretty much makes everyone in usa. But american media and big money pushed the other sports, whereas now they are behind soccer. 

The difference has been media support; maybe they wanted to show 'american' sports and hope they could break into all other markets. But the world never cared for baseball or egg football....


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## f00bar (Mar 6, 2014)

Argo said:


> So you don't think that all these immigrants watch soccer on TV where ever they find it? Telemundo or fox doesn't matter, it is the foundation that has been being laid for 30 or 40 years by the industry. I know I only watch soccer because I have played it since being a child and my son has too. I always have a ball in my truck, I actually have no idea what league is what, I just watch soccer like a good Mexican.


I'm saying middle America didn't care about it until recently. And no amount of immigrants playing it in on their lunch break in the field next to their job was going to change that.

Now my experience may very a bit living in New England, although I did live just north of El Paso for 5 years. But I can't name a single Mexican team or national player and other than Argentina and Brasil for the most part could care less about their national teams. South American immigrants made us aware of the sport and it's popularity. It does very little make us want to participate or watch.

Sorry, now we are way off topic


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## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

Argo said:


> We are talking about the US, I'd venture to guess that Latinos as a whole make up 90% of the immigrants in the us in the past 20 years.
> 
> Aside from that your making my point more solid given every single person coming to the us over the past few decades has soccer/futball ingrained in their soul.


That's part of what I mean... everyone going to the states besides asians have had it ingrained in their soul. The problem is that it was always a sort of 'niche' market. Almost like how for some a while there were more snowboarders than skiers and it (sb) was still considered the niche..... not anymore. Right now, snowboarding lost its edge in market appeal to skiing. 

There's very few opportunities for really young kids to start snowboarding. And it's almost "common knowledge" that kids should start skiing. WTF?! where the hell does that come from?? probably from the same place that says snowboarding is all flippy flips and triple corks.

Last yr i was going to get my son on skis just because there was nowhere I could get him snowboard lessons. This yr he's specifically asked for a snowboard, and that's what he's getting. I'm going to have to teach him myself or pay for a couple private lessons. He'll learn. They all learn. Kids learn anything.

Same happened with soccer. Parents came in looking for the soccer field..... america (usa) gave em a baseball bat or an egg and said "that's what we do in america".


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## f00bar (Mar 6, 2014)

F1EA said:


> I think ALL immigrants watch soccer, not just mexicans. Which pretty much makes everyone in usa. But american media and big money pushed the other sports, whereas now they are behind soccer.
> 
> The difference has been media support; maybe they wanted to show 'american' sports and hope they could break into all other markets. But the world never cared for baseball or egg football....


The money in soccer in America isn't mexicans. It's white middle class america. That is why John Henry (owner of red sox for those who may not know), paid $300M to buy Liverpool. He didn't buy a Mexican or Spanish speaking team. He bought a team he could sell to affluent white America. Simply pointing out a target audience, not dissing South American immigrants.

This was a pivotal moment for Soccer in the US solely for the media influence he carries.


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## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

f00bar said:


> The money in soccer in America isn't mexicans. It's white middle class america. That is why John Henry (owner of red sox for those who may not know), paid $300M to buy Liverpool. He didn't buy a Mexican or Spanish speaking team. He bought a team he could sell to affluent white America. Simply pointing out a target audience, not dissing South American immigrants.
> 
> This was a pivotal moment for Soccer in the US solely for the media influence he carries.


That's what i'm saying. It is NOT mexicans. It's always been everyone. And only recently, big money media (ie white america) went behind soccer; and THAT's why it's grown. Media push.


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## neni (Dec 24, 2012)

F1EA said:


> lol
> It's huge in europe too and been that way for a looong time. Where the vast majority of other non-mexican americans come from. And that didnt make a difference.


Huge is an understatement! It's omnipresent. Every friggn regional game will block broadcasting time on most channels. I don’t even bother to go home early on weekdays cos there sure is a super league, champions league, wtf league game. (Seasonally, there's also Tour de France in summer - sure I want to see drug filled skeletons pedalling :facepalm3: - or FIS skiing races and hockey in winter . That's it with sports on TV over here. Snowboarding? Doesn't exist besides the short slot every 4y during the Olympics. 

Dunno... foobar has a point with medial presence... but BA as well. I can't blame any kid watching Olympics who won't be hooked to snowboarding. The little media presence snowboarding gets is soooo far off from the joy of snowboarding which average joe would experience sliding down a slope. It's too acrobatic. 

While professional level of 22 men running behind a ball scoring a goal or a skier racing down a mtn can be transferred pretty easily to what an amateur will do (just slower or less precise), one needs a big heap of imagination to watch half pipe and think hey, this looks fun I can do that. Hell, even eventing on pro level is very close to what I do as a very low level amateur (just way slower and lower). 

So maybe we lack medial precense of snowboarding comps which are _closer_ to what would make _one_ think it's achievable at lower level and would enjoy? IDK if such comps exist... they're not broadcasted here


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## Noreaster (Oct 7, 2012)

neni said:


> I don’t even bother to go home early on weekdays cos there sure is a super league, champions league, wtf league game.


Hater! :dry:


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## KansasNoob (Feb 24, 2013)

I guess I'm not a part of America that likes soccer. Sure, it's fun to play when you're in grade school at recess, but watching grown men play it?? I'd rather watch paint dry. 

I'm not a particularly competitive person, but do enjoy watching hockey, real football, baseball, and any motorsport that isn't an oval track. I just have a hard time understanding why so many love soccer. It seems like the preppy dbags are the ones who are really getting into it. 

The difference for me is I can grab a snowboard and ride WITHOUT competing. No rules to abide by, no judges to please, no bullshit. Just fun.


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## Engage_mike (Oct 14, 2011)

I would hate to think that such an exciting sport would die and I swear it would be unheard of 10 years ago when everyone was Shaun White Crazy...but then I think back to my childhood and what was big on my streets. ROLLERBLADES, Inline Skating...it was HUGE! The sport dominated X Games with guys like Arlo Eisenberg, Chris Edwards...there were brands like Rocces, Senate and of course there was the super cool movie "AIRBORNE" which like most movies once you watch it as an adult you realize what a big steaming piece of crap it really was...All this being said...inline skating was HOT and unless I'm just totally detached (which is quite possible since I'm now 34 w/2 babies) The sport has all but dissipated... I don't think Snowboards can disappear but I can see how it definitely can dwindle from what it was.

(I miss being young, snowboarding makes me feel young again  ) can't wait to for this years trip!


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## snowklinger (Aug 30, 2011)

I'm so happy the English Premier League is finally available the way it is. I've been a fan for about 20 years, and we were mostly stuck watching Man U.


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## Manicmouse (Apr 7, 2014)

KansasNoob said:


> I guess I'm not a part of America that likes soccer. Sure, it's fun to play when you're in grade school at recess, but watching grown men play it?? I'd rather watch paint dry.
> 
> I'm not a particularly competitive person, but do enjoy watching hockey, real football, baseball, and any motorsport that isn't an oval track. I just have a hard time understanding why so many love soccer. It seems like the preppy dbags are the ones who are really getting into it.
> 
> The difference for me is I can grab a snowboard and ride WITHOUT competing. No rules to abide by, no judges to please, no bullshit. Just fun.


Handegg - so exciting!










:hairy:


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## lab49232 (Sep 13, 2011)

A: Snowboarding will never die/go away UNLESS the snow does. Dont worry about that. The idea of mass marketed rider videos and the like, ok those may die, but the sport itself, relax. Winter isn't fully going away in our lifetimes and thus neither is the sport. If you're seriously worried about it not existing stop, it's still a multi BILLION dollar industry. If youre worried it wont have the public view and whatnot, well get over it and ride, less crowded hills. yes some brands may go but there will always be solid gear out there, lets not get all apocalyptic about it.



snowklinger said:


> I'm so happy the English Premier League is finally available the way it is. I've been a fan for about 20 years, and we were mostly stuck watching Man U.


And YES (GO MAN U)! NBC Sports is doing amazing things for the sport. If more Americans understood the game it would grow but I like where it's at here. I get to watch any Premier league game I want, for MLS Timbers sell out every game but max I buy a ticket for $50 on craigslist, and it is growing. The MLS is a little over eager with their expansions which will result in what's viewed as a "downturn for the sport in America" in about 4 years when all the new teams join and the fan base can't support it, but it will still have a solid base of core supporters that continue the MLS.


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## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

BurtonAvenger said:


> Why do people watch bullshit conspiracy theorist documentaries on Netflix? Why do they watch B grade crap movies? Because it recommends them to it. I know more people that have watched Deeper, Further, and Higher on Netflix and have been interested in snowboarding than the Olympics.


Agree. Get on Netflix. It can be simple series... doesn't have to be on the AoF or Higher level of gnar...... can be stuff ams would feel identified with; but it has to be well-produced (ie image and sound quality) or the kids won't watch it thinking it's some 80's revival shit. I know i'd watch it. Especially if it was 80's revival shit 

And no olympics for me. Super boring and no appeal. I know Shawn White has won some medals.... and the last olympic thingy was in russia. But i've seen the RB Ultra Natural a lot of times.

Maybe the backcountry, kinda underground scene IS the future?
I don't know. You can't start from scratch and go hit the bc. So resorts and groomers are almost a must.


Oh and BTW the sport is NOT dying. It won't die. But as the title says.... its popularity has been in decline. That's a cold, hard fact.


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## Extremo (Nov 6, 2008)

I didn't read this entire thread...I don't know if this has already been brought up...I don't know if we're still talking about snowboarding anymore.

I see snowboarding being in decline for one reason only. It's too fucking expensive. 10 years ago you could buy a Threedom Pass to Waterville, Loon, and Cranmore for $350. 10-15 people from my town had season passes every year, and we're 45mins away from each mountain. Last year, Loon alone was $1249 a season (it looks like prices have come down for the 2015-16 season), and I know of only 2 people who have passes there, and that's only because they work there and get them for free. 

It's sad. I know kids who want to ride and get stoked on my gear, but have no options when it comes to riding lift access hills.


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## f00bar (Mar 6, 2014)

Extremo said:


> I didn't read this entire thread...I don't know if this has already been brought up...I don't know if we're still talking about snowboarding anymore.
> 
> I see snowboarding being in decline for one reason only. It's too fucking expensive. 10 years ago you could buy a Threedom Pass to Waterville, Loon, and Cranmore for $350. 10-15 people from my town had season passes every year, and we're 45mins away from each mountain. Last year, Loon alone was $1249 a season (it looks like prices have come down for the 2015-16 season), and I know of only 2 people who have passes there, and that's only because they work there and get them for free.
> 
> It's sad. I know kids who want to ride and get stoked on my gear, but have no options when it comes to riding lift access hills.


Ya, but none of that explains Chelsea's less than stellar start.


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## neni (Dec 24, 2012)

Extremo said:


> 10 years ago you could buy a Threedom Pass to Waterville, Loon, and Cranmore for $350. 10-15 people from my town had season passes every year, and we're 45mins away from each mountain. Last year, Loon alone was $1249 a season


wow... that _is_ a huge price shift and a very high pass price! Wow... and I thought CH was expensive... Our season pass only went from ~500 to 650$ in 15y.


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## f00bar (Mar 6, 2014)

neni said:


> wow... that _is_ a huge price shift and a very high pass price! Wow... and I thought CH was expensive... Our season pass only went from ~500 to 650$ in 15y.


New England is crazy when it comes to season passes. A Stowe season pass, which is probably about the highest, is 1700 and goes up to 2200 Nov 1st.

There are no epic pass like deals or anything like that.


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## SkullAndXbones (Feb 24, 2014)

f00bar said:


> Ya, but none of that explains Chelsea's less than stellar start.


haha. now that is strange.


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## Psi-Man (Aug 31, 2009)

There were some obvious downsides, but when American Ski Company owned everything there were some good deals out there on passes. You could also get great deals on lesson packages.


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## BurtonAvenger (Aug 14, 2007)

Extremo said:


> I didn't read this entire thread...I don't know if this has already been brought up...I don't know if we're still talking about snowboarding anymore.
> 
> I see snowboarding being in decline for one reason only. It's too fucking expensive. 10 years ago you could buy a Threedom Pass to Waterville, Loon, and Cranmore for $350. 10-15 people from my town had season passes every year, and we're 45mins away from each mountain. Last year, Loon alone was $1249 a season (it looks like prices have come down for the 2015-16 season), and I know of only 2 people who have passes there, and that's only because they work there and get them for free.
> 
> It's sad. I know kids who want to ride and get stoked on my gear, but have no options when it comes to riding lift access hills.


WHAT THE FUCK? How did they justify a 300% plus increase while losing 2/3rds of the terrain?

People can hate the evil empire (Vail) all they want but my pass (Epic Local gets me 3 mountains 2 of which are 15 minutes from me unlimited, 10 days Vail/BC, and the rest of their properties with limited blackouts for $579. Our season also starts typically in mid Oct and runs till June. It's truly the best bang for the buck and the terrain does not suck, the lines do. 

I think cost of entry is definitely an issue regardless of how people believe that interest and lack of friends seem to be the leading causes according to one small study. If cost was cheaper, more people would do it, which means more friends, which means more snowboarders, which means more money, which means more companies, which means more projects we get stoked to see, which means more chairlift hand jobs, which means I'm happy!


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## f00bar (Mar 6, 2014)

BurtonAvenger said:


> WHAT THE FUCK? How did they justify a 300% plus increase while losing 2/3rds of the terrain?
> 
> People can hate the evil empire (Vail) all they want but my pass (Epic Local gets me 3 mountains 2 of which are 15 minutes from me unlimited, 10 days Vail/BC, and the rest of their properties with limited blackouts for $579. Our season also starts typically in mid Oct and runs till June. It's truly the best bang for the buck and the terrain does not suck, the lines do.
> 
> I think cost of entry is definitely an issue regardless of how people believe that interest and lack of friends seem to be the leading causes according to one small study. If cost was cheaper, more people would do it, which means more friends, which means more snowboarders, which means more money, which means more companies, which means more projects we get stoked to see, which means more chairlift hand jobs, which means I'm happy!


My season pass goes for $250 preseason, $350 after Nov for a 1000' vert mountain.

There is definitely a fundamental difference in how mountains are run in the Northeast compared to anywhere else. I don't know what it is exactly, but they are entirely different beasts from a pricing perspective for season passes. Even if you go every weekend very few people have season passes. More people buy into the 2 passes to every mountain in Vt deal or join things like the Ct Ski Council which will give you $30 tickets to certain areas on certain days. It just seems to convoluted and over thought out.

My guess is the Northeast has simply been affluent for a much longer time so they could get away with it. With the current influx of new money from out of state in CO I would be worried. As more money moves in the resorts will take notice. What's another $500/year for a season pass matter when we have people building $750+K homes all over the place?


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## larrytbull (Oct 30, 2013)

f00bar said:


> My season pass goes for $250 preseason, $350 after Nov for a 1000' vert mountain.
> 
> There is definitely a fundamental difference in how mountains are run in the Northeast compared to anywhere else. I don't know what it is exactly, but they are entirely different beasts from a pricing perspective for season passes. Even if you go every weekend very few people have season passes. More people buy into the 2 passes to every mountain in Vt deal or join things like the Ct Ski Council which will give you $30 tickets to certain areas on certain days. It just seems to convoluted and over thought out.
> 
> My guess is the Northeast has simply been affluent for a much longer time so they could get away with it. With the current influx of new money from out of state in CO I would be worried. As more money moves in the resorts will take notice. What's another $500/year for a season pass matter when we have people building $750+K homes all over the place?


Prices by me a little further south are all over the place.
anywhere from 200 for $300 vert to $700 for 1080 vert
the big problem in North east is that most mountains are singly owned, with no big parent company that owns multiple resorts/hills
I had a long chat about this with the PA ski/Rid Council
that issues the 4Th 5th grader discount.

none of the mountains are willing to issue a multi mountain pass or bundle.
Which is why EPic pass is such a good deal, besdies the obvious amount of terrain


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## f00bar (Mar 6, 2014)

Stowe did join the Mountain Collective this year. I guess that gets you 2 passes to a bunch of mountains out west. Don't know much about it. Not really sure what it would get you if you spend the majority of your time out west. While certainly one of the best of the East, not sure why you would come East at all if you had 40 tickets for out west.


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## BurtonAvenger (Aug 14, 2007)

f00bar said:


> My season pass goes for $250 preseason, $350 after Nov for a 1000' vert mountain.
> 
> There is definitely a fundamental difference in how mountains are run in the Northeast compared to anywhere else. I don't know what it is exactly, but they are entirely different beasts from a pricing perspective for season passes. Even if you go every weekend very few people have season passes. More people buy into the 2 passes to every mountain in Vt deal or join things like the Ct Ski Council which will give you $30 tickets to certain areas on certain days. It just seems to convoluted and over thought out.
> 
> My guess is the Northeast has simply been affluent for a much longer time so they could get away with it. With the current influx of new money from out of state in CO I would be worried. As more money moves in the resorts will take notice. What's another $500/year for a season pass matter when we have people building $750+K homes all over the place?


Vails long term goal is to raise pass prices steadily. Before the Epic pass was created a Vail Mountain stand alone pass was over a grand, but you could get Keystone, Breck, A basin still for like 700. 

They did openly admit that they still sell more lift tickets than season passes and it's still the best bang for the buck currently. but as I see them pricing out front rangers and locals, I have a feeling either Copper Mountain or A basin will be in my near future.


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## f00bar (Mar 6, 2014)

I just happened to look at Okemo, probably in the upper range of tickets.
Okemo gets you there, Mt Sunapee and Crested Butte.

Adult - 1400
19-29 - 700
Young Ad - 1200
Jr - 950
Full time College - 400

Interesting thing is how hard they are really trying to keep the 20-30 year olds interested in the sport. Definitely a smart move.


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## BurtonAvenger (Aug 14, 2007)

They should up that number from 19 to 35, it would have a better impact in my opinion. 

For what I'd pay there I could buy a full blown Epic and a Rock Mountain pass and cover my bases around here. 

The east has always had a problem with partnering up on pass sales. I think it's because so many places have been slow to implement RF scanners.


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## f00bar (Mar 6, 2014)

BurtonAvenger said:


> They should up that number from 19 to 35, it would have a better impact in my opinion.
> 
> For what I'd pay there I could buy a full blown Epic and a Rock Mountain pass and cover my bases around here.
> 
> The east has always had a problem with partnering up on pass sales. I think it's because so many places have been slow to implement RF scanners.


I think they should make it 44 and increment it one each year


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## speedjason (May 2, 2013)

f00bar said:


> I just happened to look at Okemo, probably in the upper range of tickets.
> Okemo gets you there, Mt Sunapee and Crested Butte.
> 
> Adult - 1400
> ...


That's a big chunk of money for a season pass.


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## neni (Dec 24, 2012)

larrytbull said:


> Prices by me a little further south are all over the place.
> anywhere from 200 for $300 vert to $700 for 1080 vert


700 for 1080 vert is just ridiculous :eyetwitch2:

The Alps seem to be considerably cheaper... 
Here you pay 650-700 for mid sized resorts with 4500ft-5000ft vert. For rhe same monye can have a multi-pass which combines 16 of the lower Alps smaller resorts i.e. only abt 3300ft.
Bit more are the multi-passes which combine bigger ones, e.g. valid in 13 resorts with up to 6500ft vert in central Switzerland for 1100.
For the most expensive biggest poshiest resort here, Zermatt, you pay 1500, for 7500ft vert, which really is expensive IMO. 

Now those are only examples of Switzerland, the country with notoriously high prices in Europe; Swiss Big Mac price is 6.80.... Italy, France and Austria, all also coutries with parts of the Alps, have lower price structure... 

I already thought that our local season pass is a rather good deal. Reading abt prices in this thread makes me very thankful. I really doupt that my parents would have enabled me to get into skiing/snowboarding in a region where pass prices would have been so high...


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## sabatoa (Jan 18, 2011)

neni said:


> 700 for 1080 vert is just ridiculous :eyetwitch2:
> 
> The Alps seem to be considerably cheaper...
> Here you pay 650-700 for mid sized resorts with 4500ft-5000ft vert. For rhe same monye can have a multi-pass which combines 16 of the lower Alps smaller resorts i.e. only abt 3300ft.
> ...


psh. My home hill is $699 for an unlimited pass- 550 vert.

Hills near Detroit push $600 for ~350 vert.

Pity us!


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## f00bar (Mar 6, 2014)

neni said:


> 700 for 1080 vert is just ridiculous :eyetwitch2:
> 
> The Alps seem to be considerably cheaper...
> Here you pay 650-700 for mid sized resorts with 4500ft-5000ft vert. For rhe same monye can have a multi-pass which combines 16 of the lower Alps smaller resorts i.e. only abt 3300ft.
> ...


I agree, which is why for the east coast the price point is cost prohibitive more so than out West or Europe. It's not the cost of the equipment as you can always find cheap stuff, its the ticket price that most people balk over when considering the sport.

Operating costs are probably part of it. The east coast has to blow a lot of their own snow if they plan on opening before xmas.


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## Bertieman (Jan 19, 2014)

f00bar said:


> I agree, which is why for the east coast the price point is cost prohibitive more so than out West or Europe.


If you don't have access to RCI, lodging ends up costing more than passes and equipment combined


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## f00bar (Mar 6, 2014)

Bertieman said:


> If you don't have access to RCI, lodging ends up costing more than passes and equipment combined


Most of New England does day trips. Not all, but most. If you're heading up from NYC you're probably booking a place. But the vast majority of cars in the parking lot in areas in south/mid Vermont are day trippers. North of Killington that starts to change.

And at some point lift ticket prices become psychological.


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## chomps1211 (Mar 30, 2011)

Snowboarding IS a very expensive sport/activity/lifestyle to get involved in. Even if you're good at doing things "on the cheap!" After paying for my kayak, MTB, etc. It costs me $11-$12 on my plate fees for the State Rec. pass, another $25 for the yearly Metro Park pass, then aside from maybe yearly maintenance,...? Gas is all ot costs me to get out n play. 

Even getting the Epic pass to cover you for a trip or two out west,.. altho definitely a great deal! It still costs as much as a plane ticket. Then you need a plane ticket! No "Bro" to offer up a couch,..? 4-6 days lodging n meals. 

For those of us that don't live within driving distance of anyplace Epic,.. It adds up fast.  

Then again, as has been mentioned earlier! You can easily spend $1100-$1200 for passes that will let you hit 8-10 resorts all with less than 600 ft. of vert. And from SE Mich, to get to anything with more than 350 ft. almost requires an overnight trip. So,... still more Gas, food, lodging, etc! 

Snowboarding should thank it's lucky stars it's so much freakin' fun to do, or we wouldn't put up with it!!!! :laugh: (....hmnnnn sounds a little like a conversation I had with my "Ex" on a few occasions!)  :lol:


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## larrytbull (Oct 30, 2013)

neni said:


> 700 for 1080 vert is just ridiculous :eyetwitch2:
> 
> The Alps seem to be considerably cheaper...
> Here you pay 650-700 for mid sized resorts with 4500ft-5000ft vert. For rhe same monye can have a multi-pass which combines 16 of the lower Alps smaller resorts i.e. only abt 3300ft.
> ...


In my neck of woods 1080 is best we got unless we want to add 3 or 4 more hours to trip then we get to 4k vert at New England prices
normally I don't do passes, but buy discounted individuals, or some of the ski and ride cards since we have a wide number of places to go within 1-1.5 hours.

This year though they got me for 2 passes since my son is joining the freestyle team. which requires us to be there every weekend (aww shucks :jumping1:...:jumping1 

at least maybe will give me an excuse to get over 30 days this year


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## ThredJack (Mar 18, 2014)

Count me as one of the people that can't afford a season pass. larrytbull and I ride the same mountains(mostly, I get the feeling he ventures out more), but I can only get out 4 or 5 times last year, cause that's all I could afford!


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## neni (Dec 24, 2012)

f00bar said:


> Operating costs are probably part of it. The east coast has to blow a lot of their own snow if they plan on opening before xmas.


Interesting point. To what extent? I.e. do they have to produce _all_ the snow to make riding possible at all? Or is it just a supporting measure?

I have no clue what causes a resort most costs - I assume, energy to run lifts, mainenance of lifts, maintenance of groomers i.e. cats and salary of workers are the main cost points - and how energy to produce snow fits into them. 

Our resort has snow canons as well, but IIRC, only a handfull at few critical spots where slopes connect and loads of ppl have to pass and snow gets removed by the hundreds of edges passing that spot. Otherwise, if there's no snow on a run? That run simply isn't opened. 
Last year at season start (mid Dec) was particularly hairy, snow fell very late; therefore, the first two weeks after opening day, only one slope - the highest located one - was opened due to lack of snow further down. Some lifts did not spin until late into the season since their runs had not enough naturally fallen snow. Snow canons are only a _supporting_ measure, not an _enabeling_ one.

Now, if snow canons cause a lot of costs (do they?), and a resort has to produce _all_ of the basis of their existence purpose - sliding on snow - to be able to open at all, and this on a regular basis, I can imagine that this causes pass prices to rise. 

But actually, in that case, they would be trying to make something artificially happen (sliding on snow) where it has no place...? Or at least at a time point when it - sliding on snow - has no natural place? And for this artificial "make it happen at all" one has to pay a lot? (Like... our region is no good for wind surfing; there's a lake but no wind. Now if one would want to wind surf at all costs, one would need to put up windmachines)


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## f00bar (Mar 6, 2014)

It depends on the mountain. Most areas in the north east will claim 100% snowmaking coverage, but what that really means is they have it all piped. My smaller area can make snow on 50% of the mountain at a time due to pumping limitations. That is the main expensive. Takes a lot of juice to pump that amount of water and compressed air. The water itself is stored in ponds from the previous seasons runoff so at least that is cost effective.

Most areas from mid VT south crank the snowmaking to kick off the season and by mid Jan for the most part are done with it other than occasional to fix the traffic areas. They probably wouldn't be open for xmas without it.


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## neni (Dec 24, 2012)

f00bar said:


> It depends on the mountain. Most areas in the north east will claim 100% snowmaking coverage, but what that really means is they have it all piped. My smaller area can make snow on 50% of the mountain at a time due to pumping limitations. That is the main expensive. Takes a lot of juice to pump that amount of water and compressed air. The water itself is stored in ponds from the previous seasons runoff so at least that is cost effective.
> 
> Most areas from mid VT south crank the snowmaking to kick off the season and by mid Jan for the most part are done with it other than occasional to fix the traffic areas. They probably wouldn't be open for xmas without it.


K, so in short, you simply pay for having the possibility to ride in a place/time where it actually - "naturally" in terms of snow - wouldn't be possible to ride. That explains the high costs.


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## Argo (Feb 25, 2010)

Even colorado mountains blow snow to be able to get open in November. Some years there is only blown snow to ride on until Christmas


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## mosf88 (Mar 1, 2013)

f00bar said:


> I suspect this is primarily it. I'm still not sure I'm buying into the recovery for middle America. Those with money have made more money. So guess what? The industry has decided to cater to the whales. Making it even less accessible.
> 
> Golf has taken a huge hit as well. They'll try to blame Tiger. But in reality it's because people took a time out from spending on it, forced or voluntary. And when that happens it takes a long time to regain traction.


Not just the recession but people's mindsets in general...

- instant gratification - not gonna happen on a snowboard. My son and I took private lessons for months. I think it took a year for us to get down a hill propertly

- money going other places - 8 yr olds have cell phones with unlimited data. Cable TV $100-150 / month. Can't drive a car anymore gotta have a massive SUV @ 14mpg. Can't have 3 br ranch or split level house gotta have a 4br w/ 3 car garage on 1/2 acre. Johnny can't play little league he's gotta be in travel ball for $3k / year. And people who love Disney World don't take their kids once like when I was growing up... its every couple of years or even every year, and they've really jacked their rates in the past few years.

- free time - little league and cheer can run 10 months out of the year in Chicago. 

If you are affected by just a couple of these then winter sports is much less likely to happen. And then between skis and boards - let's face you can learn to ski in a day.


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## neni (Dec 24, 2012)

mosf88 said:


> Not just the recession but people's mindsets in general...
> 
> - instant gratification - not gonna happen on a snowboard. My son and I took private lessons for months. I think it took a year for us to get down a hill propertly
> 
> ...


... but there are also loads of new credit cards available, right?


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## ThredJack (Mar 18, 2014)

neni said:


> Interesting point. To what extent? I.e. do they have to produce _all_ the snow to make riding possible at all? Or is it just a supporting measure?


Depends on the year. Some years we'll get snow in October, others it won't snow until December. Most years we can expect some kind of snow by Thanksgiving(November for the non-Americans).

A couple years ago we got an inch or so on Halloween. This year we got dumped on the day before Thanksgivng.


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## BurtonAvenger (Aug 14, 2007)

Snow making is the number 1 cost to all ski resorts. Whether that be paying for the water, the piping, the people to do it, etc. etc. It's the first primary cost, then chairlifts, then food/bev/hospitality, then everything else. 

Most resorts something like 50 to 80% of their costs go to snow making, but if they can be 100% open by X-mas it's usually a break even or turn a little profit, then the rest of the season is all profits. 

I would like to share with you guys the most disjointed answer to the snowboarding identity crisis I've ever seen. This is the battle those of us on the front line are fighting. 

"Think quality when it comes to the manufacture of our bindings, boots, boards, etc. Remind people that snowboarding is fun…..there is more to riding a snowboard than people tend to think. Mountains maintain a diversity of terrain that allow you to explore novel paths of danger and beauty and excitement. Patience friends. Take time to learn about your mountain. Make love to it. It has more to offer than you think when it comes to snowboarding. This industry is not dead or dying. It’s just evolving; adapting to the ever changing desires and economy of the people; and of course we fail to realize the fact because we are all in such a damn hurry to get things done. Slow down, let it happen because we all know what happens when the industry is rushed and pressured to “make better” and “improve”; the quality diminishes and we are left with a quantity of ideas and products that quite frankly, suck. Identity crisis? Give me a break. We all know what we’re here for; people only complain and for the sake of bitching about the inventions of a bored mind."

This was a serious WTF moment this morning. People like this are part of the problem, probably because they did too much mescaline or something.


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## BurtonAvenger (Aug 14, 2007)

This email just came through about Venture snowboards a company that I view as the true definition of core snowboarding and supporting the snowboard industry. 

*Venture Supporters,

Venture Snowboards has encountered some challenging terrain in recent months. Circumstances beyond our control have forced us to make a tough decision. We will not be delivering any boards to market for the 2015-16 winter season. 

To our friends, colleagues, collaborators and all you Venture riders and supporters, we are deeply sorry. We sincerely apologize for any impacts this may have on you or your business. 

To our staff who stuck by us through thick and thin—you are the heart of Venture. So many people had the best days of their lives on boards we built by hand. That is something to be proud of, something no one can take away.

Trust us when we say we did everything possible to make it work. Venture has been a labor of love for us for more than 16 years. We did it for you, for ourselves, and for snowboarding. 

We can’t project what will happen beyond 2015-16. In the meantime, we hope you’ll support the other craft manufacturers out there who love snowboarding as much as we do.

This isn’t goodbye. See you soon.

Klem and Lisa Branner
Venture Snowboards*


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## Mig Fullbag (Apr 15, 2014)

Wow!!! That sucks...


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## BurtonAvenger (Aug 14, 2007)

Blows huge donkey ass. Klem and especially Lisa were two of my favorite people in the snowboard industry. They lived the life they sold to people. Splitboarding out their back door, factory in the mountains away from all the bullshit, made boards for their consumers and kept the line lean. They were the epitome of a core brand.


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## killclimbz (Aug 10, 2007)

I can't say enough good things about Klem and Lisa. They are awesome people. They had definitely found their slice of heaven and were enjoying it. Hopefully this is a hiatus for them and they'll be back stronger than before.


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## lab49232 (Sep 13, 2011)

It just goes to show that while we all value "core" and preach it here, it doesn't lead to success. I've said it before and I'll say it again, snowboarding companies are a business first, that shouldn't bother you. To do everything "right and true to the sport" is expensive and really not sustainable. We can all say we liked Venture and how they were going about it but it didn't help them keep their doors open and now we don't have their boards at all...


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## BurtonAvenger (Aug 14, 2007)

I think it was something beyond snowboarding that resulted in this personally. Their sell through was always solid and limited production numbers helped, plus Silverton isn't exactly an expensive area to live in.


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## lab49232 (Sep 13, 2011)

I've heard some rumors about the reason. Not sure whats true and won't speculate. But regardless, part of it is that to be that small core company you run the risk of everything being the end of your business. Family issues, health issues, sell through issues, snow issues, literally every single part of the business can fail from something small and possibly not even related to the industry. Jake Burton gets hit by a bus tomorrow Burton carries on, family issues for the CEO of Amer sports, no matter it's still business as usual.


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## deagol (Mar 26, 2014)

BurtonAvenger said:


> Blows huge donkey ass. Klem and especially Lisa were two of my favorite people in the snowboard industry. They lived the life they sold to people. Splitboarding out their back door, factory in the mountains away from all the bullshit, made boards for their consumers and kept the line lean. They were the epitome of a core brand.


I was pretty crushed to read this news... I can't say enough good about them- my favorite company:sad2:.


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## kimchijajonshim (Aug 19, 2007)

Never heard much about Venture beyond handling their boards in-shop once or twice, but was bummed to hear about it. Hopefully they have enough in the war chest (both as a company and as a family) to weather a year break.

As far as snowboarding... I don't have any solid numbers to back me up but I've noticed in Tahoe last season (across Squaw, Sugar Bowl, Alpine, and a couple days at Sierra) that the proportion of riders versus skiiers is way down. I would venture it used to be 50-50 around the time I really started getting into it in 2006-07, nowadays it seems like it's about 2/3rds skiiers on lifts. Could just be cognitive bias, small sample size, or something else, but there do seem to be way fewer one-plankers out there (at least as a percentage).

Suspect at least part of it has to do with industry negligence too. Don't know enough about the ski industry to know whether they similarly screwed up, but snowboarding manufacturers really screwed the pooch in the hey-day of Sierra Snowboard from say 2005-2009. I know for me getting involved in riding during that era basically made me expect not to pay any more than 60% of retail. That is not a way to make money and when the economy went down the tubes, the entire house of cards fell apart. It took me a few seasons to readjust to paying close to retail to get a particular board I wanted.



lab49232 said:


> A: Snowboarding will never die/go away UNLESS the snow does. Dont worry about that.


I think you're right riding will always exist unless the snow goes away. But that's a very real, scary possibility in our lifetimes and possibly even the next few decades. Climate change is undeniably real and no one has any concrete idea of what it could do to long-term weather patterns.


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## Adam718 (Jan 15, 2015)

Here's my take on the matter:

I do archery in the warmer months when I'm not snowboarding, and archery was very much a dying sport, and only those that really made it a part of their lives stuck with it. Bows and other equipment were selling for fairly cheap as the demand was dwindling, there weren't many target ranges open, etc.

Then one day, a movie hit theaters that changed the world of archery practically overnight. That movie was The Hunger Game. Archery ranges saw waves and waves of people coming to try it out because they saw that chick with the chubby cheeks do it in a movie. The price of equipment shot up, new archery ranges opened, and the sport became alive again. 

Every time a new hunger games movie releases, there's another surge of participation. Even now, years after the original release, archery is a lot more popular and common than before the movie released. In a sense, the hunger games saved the sport of archery.

Snowboarding needs its hunger games


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## KansasNoob (Feb 24, 2013)

"The snow carnie hunger games" or "sleeping in your pickup at Safeway games" :hairy:

The story of Bratniss Neverclean, doing everything she can to get that powder.


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## BurtonAvenger (Aug 14, 2007)

KansasNoob said:


> "The snow carnie hunger games" or "sleeping in your pickup at Safeway games" :hairy:
> 
> The story of Bratniss Neverclean, doing everything she can to get that powder.


Pretty sure the only powder she's doing was smuggled into this country up someone's ass.


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## BoardWalk (Mar 22, 2011)

BurtonAvenger said:


> Pretty sure the only powder she's doing was smuggled into this country up someone's ass.


That fresh new powder smell.


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## raffertyk2 (Dec 16, 2014)




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## lab49232 (Sep 13, 2011)

Out Cold part 2! Ok not really, don't mess with a classic.


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## Mystery2many (Aug 14, 2013)

lab49232 said:


> Out Cold part 2! Ok not really, don't mess with a classic.


Love that movie!!!!


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## WigMar (Mar 17, 2019)

It's still as popular as it was in 2015 I'd expect.


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## Manicmouse (Apr 7, 2014)

Snowboarder21 said:


> Snowboarding is still popular as ever. Check out this dope snowboarding blog.


That's really crap, they're not even reviews. Stop spamming your shitty website.


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