# Malavita Re:Flex vs. Cartel Re:Flex



## Deviant (Dec 22, 2009)

Been reading some older reviews on here regarding the flex between the two. I see the chart is saying the Vitas are softer but have been reading some conflicting reviews. Currently looking at last years models and will be going on an Evo. Anyone with personal experience have the low down on the flex of these two? I had Cartels about 4 years ago but they were pretty damn stiff, and now I'm reading that they may have changed(?). Any heads up on this is appreciated. Thanks!


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## Mystery2many (Aug 14, 2013)

What flex are you looking for? Softer or stiffer? I would go with the vitas only because of the heel hammock. It holds your boot down without having to crank down on the ankle strap. Which reduces the pressure on your ankle. But that's just me.


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## Irahi (May 19, 2011)

2013 cartels are pretty darn soft compared to the 2012 and earlier models. I haven't ridden the 2013+ malavitas, but in store they definitely seemed stiffer than the cartels.


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## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

Yeah, I was just messing around with a pair of Cartels in a shop earlier today and they seemed a lot softer than in the past. That may not hold true on a board, but certainly seemed that way in hand.


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## Deviant (Dec 22, 2009)

Mystery2many said:


> What flex are you looking for? Softer or stiffer? I would go with the vitas only because of the heel hammock. It holds your boot down without having to crank down on the ankle strap. Which reduces the pressure on your ankle. But that's just me.


Looking for softer of the two. It's odd that burton is listing the same 7 out of 10 on their site if they really did soften up the Cartels.


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## Mystery2many (Aug 14, 2013)

Deviant said:


> Looking for softer of the two. It's odd that burton is listing the same 7 out of 10 on their site if they really did soften up the Cartels.


Dude. Honestly the flex ratings are changing with the new technology. It's a new age and a new perspective. Reflex and shadow fit are giving a whole new take on things. Flex ratings don't have the same meaning anymore. I would advise you to really dig in and research the differences and the application of the new tech. You will understand what I mean.


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## Deviant (Dec 22, 2009)

Not really what I meant by that but I know what you're saying. I wasn't able to check the malavitas at the shop today as they didn't have them, but I didn't remember the cartel highback being that flexible before. As far as the reflex tech, I'm coming off EST's right now (which I don't like much anymore) but will be interesting to see how reflex feels.

Maybe I'm not making any sense because I'm dead tired from a rail jam earlier today in the rain, but before reading all the reviews on the malavita stiffness I thought it was the softer of the two.


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## Mystery2many (Aug 14, 2013)

Where do you want the flex? Tip to tail or heel to toe? Response heel to toe and a skate feel from tip to tail is my style. I think cartels are all around stiffer do to the unforgivingness. Reflex or est have losen them up but over all the hammock has given a new demension to it. Reflex/est plus hammock equal a softer feel.


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## BigmountainVMD (Oct 9, 2011)

Per Burton's website on the Malavita: "Softer than the Cartel, more responsive than the Genesis..."

I don't think you can go wrong with the Malavita. With the Heel Hammock and the Asym strap, I bet it is more comfortable.

Only thing the Cartel has over the 'Vitas is some minor dampening under the bindings.

If you can get both bindings in hand, I would be really interested in the torsional flex on the high backs. I'm willing to bet the Cartel and 'Vita have similar flex when pulling back on the highback, but if you twist them, the 'Vitas will twist more, an advantage for spins/tweaking grabs/flatland tricks and such.

I am personally stacking up the Genesis, 'Vitas and Union Factory bindings. I was gonna go for the genesis, but I really want canting, so that leaves the latter two options. I already have a set of Prophecys for a T. Rice and would prefer something a little different for a Proto... "same same but different" as they say in Thailand.


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## Deviant (Dec 22, 2009)

BigmountainVMD said:


> Per Burton's website on the Malavita: "Softer than the Cartel, more responsive than the Genesis..."
> 
> I don't think you can go wrong with the Malavita. With the Heel Hammock and the Asym strap, I bet it is more comfortable.
> 
> ...


This is what I'm kinda getting at. They are claiming the vitas are softer, yet I'm hearing from others that they feel the cartel is softer (as in it changed in the last few years). There was a discussion awhile back about this, I think Nivek did a review, although they were the EST version. One of our local shops just closed, the other only had the EST cartel, and no Malavitas so it will be an online purchase.



Irahi said:


> 2013 cartels are pretty darn soft compared to the 2012 and earlier models. I haven't ridden the 2013+ malavitas, but in store they definitely seemed stiffer than the cartels.


Was this a highback test or did you get to flex them on a board?


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## snowklinger (Aug 30, 2011)

They are more separated by their features then their function, IMO. For a little more cash you get a couple extras in the 'Vita.


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## Irahi (May 19, 2011)

Deviant said:


> Was this a highback test or did you get to flex them on a board?


Owned and rode the 2013 cartels ~50 days this season, but only poked around at the malavitas in store by hand.


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## dreampow (Sep 26, 2011)

I haven't ridden the Vitas, but I own and ride 2011 Cartels and 2013 resstricted cartels. In the store the vitas highbacks feel very similar in flex.

I use the 2011s for freeride with a touch of freestyle, they are more responsive and considerably stiffer than the 2013s which are still solid enough for carving, but more freestyle with a little freeride if you see what I mean.

Its like they are different bindings yet they both have a stiffness rating of 7 :dunno:.

I like them both a lot though. 

I hope burton make a new model like the old cartels next year, not as stiff as the diodes, but a little more solid than the new cartels and vitas.


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## BigmountainVMD (Oct 9, 2011)

Deviant said:


> This is what I'm kinda getting at. They are claiming the vitas are softer, yet I'm hearing from others that they feel the cartel is softer (as in it changed in the last few years). There was a discussion awhile back about this, I think Nivek did a review, although they were the EST version. One of our local shops just closed, the other only had the EST cartel, and no Malavitas so it will be an online purchase.



Both bindings have the same 30% short fiberglass/nylon makeup, so I would imagine the only flex difference would be in the highback.

You should call Burton Rider Services. They have a lot of information there that is not posted anywhere. If you ask them which highback flexes more, they will let you know.


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## hktrdr (Apr 3, 2012)

BigmountainVMD said:


> Both bindings have the same 30% short fiberglass/nylon makeup, so I would imagine the only flex difference would be in the highback.


Erm, Re:flex Cartels and Vitas have different base plates, so difference is not just the highback...


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## BigmountainVMD (Oct 9, 2011)

hktrdr said:


> Erm, Re:flex Cartels and Vitas have different base plates, so difference is not just the highback...



If you look at Evo and Dogfunk, both sites claim that both baseplates are single component, 30% short fiberglass/nylon composite. More flexible park oriented bindings often have a smaller %, while stiffer bindings usually have a greater %.

Obviously the way the baseplates are cored can change the flex a bit, but I think the major difference would be in the highbacks. Other than the additional dampening components under the cartels, I bet if you switched highbacks between the bindings, the difference would not be a big one. The cored out sections of the 'Vita highbacks are lower than the cored out sections on the Cartel, which I would think would add a significant amount of torsional flex to the 'Vita highbacks, relative to the Cartels.

Do you have any information on how the baseplates flex differently?


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## hktrdr (Apr 3, 2012)

BigmountainVMD said:


> If you look at Evo and Dogfunk, both sites claim that both baseplates are single component, 30% short fiberglass/nylon composite. More flexible park oriented bindings often have a smaller %, while stiffer bindings usually have a greater %.
> 
> Obviously the way the baseplates are cored can change the flex a bit, but I think the major difference would be in the highbacks. Other than the additional dampening components under the cartels, I bet if you switched highbacks between the bindings, the difference would not be a big one. The cored out sections of the 'Vita highbacks are lower than the cored out sections on the Cartel, which I would think would add a significant amount of torsional flex to the 'Vita highbacks, relative to the Cartels.
> 
> Do you have any information on how the baseplates flex differently?


I am not talking about the materials, but about the shape of the baseplate. And it is not just a question about coring, it is really a considerably different shape. The Diode, Genesis and Vita had the new baseplate last year already and the Cartel got it for the 2012-13 Limited and Regional Love editions as well - but for 2013-14 both the 'regular' and Restricted Cartel are still on the previous baseplate.
How does the new baseplate compare? Well, rather than stiffer/softer I would just say *better* - much better, in fact. Arguably *both* flexier *and* more responsive. 
Burton also touts the fact that the new baseplate is lighter but frankly I think it makes no difference to the ride at all (also note: the underfoot coring is not the same for all of the bindings that got it, so the weight will presumably vary.)


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## Deviant (Dec 22, 2009)

hktrdr said:


> I am not talking about the materials, but about the shape of the baseplate. And it is not just a question about coring, it is really a considerably different shape. The Diode, Genesis and Vita had the new baseplate last year already and the Cartel got it for the 2012-13 Limited and Regional Love editions as well - but for 2013-14 both the 'regular' and Restricted Cartel are back to the previous baseplate.
> How does the new baseplate compare? Well, rather than stiffer/softer I would just say *better* - much better, in fact. Arguably *both* flexier *and* more responsive.
> Burton also touts the fact that the new baseplate is lighter but frankly I think it makes no difference to the ride at all (also note: the underfoot coring is not the same for all of the bindings that got it, so the weight will presumably vary.)


So If I'm reading this right, the Cartel Limited and Restricted were the only that had the better baseplate last year and it is going back to a stiffer baseplate now? The "better" baseplate you're referring to is staying with the Malavita as it was with last seasons? Reason I ask is I'll be picking up previous season model.


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## hktrdr (Apr 3, 2012)

Deviant said:


> So If I'm reading this right, the Cartel Limited and Restricted were the only that had the better baseplate last year and it is going back to a stiffer baseplate now? The "better" baseplate you're referring to is staying with the Malavita as it was with last seasons? Reason I ask is I'll be picking up previous season model.


No, the Restricted Cartel last year (as well as this year) was also still the old baseplate. The 2012-13 Limited and Regional Love editions were the only Cartel with the new baseplate.
Clarified my wording in the other post: for 2013-14 both the 'regular' and Restricted Cartel are *still* on the previous baseplate


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## Nivek (Jan 24, 2008)

I'm gonna say the most realistic difference in the frame for ReFlex is the heel corners. The Malavita, Genesis, and 2013 Cartel Regional Love have solid "wings" outside the main heel pocket. The normal and even restricted Cartels from last year and this year have foam under those wings. It allows more board flex. So, the highback is softer, the frame allows a bit more flex at the heel area, same glass content... Yeah the Cartel Reflex is softer than the Malavita. The Genesis is really about the same as the Cartel but just more comfy and damp.

As far as I'm concerned everything I have stated on these three bindings, Reflex and EST, stands.


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## Supra (Jan 11, 2012)

dreampow said:


> I haven't ridden the Vitas, but I own and ride 2011 Cartels and 2013 resstricted cartels. In the store the vitas highbacks feel very similar in flex.
> 
> I use the 2011s for freeride with a touch of freestyle, they are more responsive and considerably stiffer than the 2013s which are still solid enough for carving, but more freestyle with a little freeride if you see what I mean.
> 
> ...


look at the missions


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## hktrdr (Apr 3, 2012)

Supra said:


> look at the missions


Yup - both last and this year's Missions are essentially the 2011-12 Cartel without the autocant and B3 gel.

Or he could create his on Franken-binding - if I wanted something more responsive free-ride oriented, I would go with the current Vita/Genesis baseplate and the Mission (former Cartel) highback - or put that highback on the 2012-13 Limited/Regional Love Cartel (which is essentially the same thing).


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## Deviant (Dec 22, 2009)

Nivek said:


> I'm gonna say the most realistic difference in the frame for ReFlex is the heel corners. The Malavita, Genesis, and 2013 Cartel Regional Love have solid "wings" outside the main heel pocket. The normal and even restricted Cartels from last year and this year have foam under those wings. It allows more board flex. So, the highback is softer, the frame allows a bit more flex at the heel area, same glass content... Yeah the Cartel Reflex is softer than the Malavita. The Genesis is really about the same as the Cartel but just more comfy and damp.
> 
> As far as I'm concerned everything I have stated on these three bindings, Reflex and EST, stands.


Thanks for this Nivek. I just find it odd that Burton is marketing the Malavita as the more park focused binding if its actually stiffer than the Cartels. Not sure what you mean by the wings though. I know of the highback wing on some of the Malavita's, but I don't think that's what you're talking about.


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## tekniq33 (Mar 18, 2009)

I personally think the stiffness of the highback is about the same. I have had multiple versions of both bindings as well. 

The biggest differences for me are the Malavita is a little cush with the straps and hammock in the highback whereas the Cartels are a little more to the point and perhaps a bit more responsive because of the straps. 

Personally I like the Cartels better just because they are a little more straightforward and simple without the hammock. Vitas almost feel too heavy and bulky to me for some reason. I am loving the Cartel Regional Love from last year because it has the react strap. Killer combo.

That being said there are versions of the Cartel with the Malavita strap so....


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## snowklinger (Aug 30, 2011)

The hammock is at least 50% gimmick. Love my 'Vitas but the hammock is something that is there to break sorta. Mine are hanging in there but you can see the hammock will shred.


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## tekniq33 (Mar 18, 2009)

Given what I just wrote it is somewhat surprising but this year I will be running Cartels, Genesis and Now IPO's. I got such a good deal on Genesis EST that I will give them a go and can always switch to cartels. 

In addition to the highback thing on the Geneis I am a little concerned about how mininmal the footbed is.


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