# Sticky  Waterproof/Breathability - CONFUSED/EXPLAINED



## jmyers

Can someone explain to me the waterproof and breathability number given to jackets? Thank you.


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## Kjerstin Klein

*Waterproof/Breathable EXPLAINED*

Since the fabrics today are so technical it is easy to get confused by the jargon. The key thing to remember is that 2 things make you wet on the slopes. First - _ambient moisture_, the moisture in the air that can come in the form of SNOW, RAIN and even FOG and Second _internal moisture_, this is the moisture that comes from sweat.

It is easy to make a jacket waterproof, a plastic sack is waterproof. What is hard is to make it waterproof AND breathable. The breathabiltiy of a jacket is the measurement of how much moisture vapor can escape from the jacket. This is measured in grams of water vapor that can pass through a square meter of fabric in the space of 24 hours. This formula is written as g/m2/d and abbreviated as simply g or gm.

Now different coatings and laminate layers add to the external weather protection of a garment but the over all water resistence of the fabric itself is measured by suspending a tube of water over the fabric to determine how many millimeters (abbreviated as mm) of waterpressure the fabric can withstand before the water begins to leak through to the other side.

Keep in mind many factors go into how dry you stay while you ride. The quality of the garment is found in more than just the numbers. Let me know if you have more questions along this line!

Ride Hard!


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## jmyers

Thank you so much! I get very confused by all the numbers and wonder the actual effectiveness of the kacket. I am looking at a DC jacket with the following info:

Material: Exotex 5000
Waterproof Rating: 5K
Breathable Rating: 5000g

It is said to be super waterproof and breathable, does this make sense?


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## landonk5

5k is on the lower end but it'll hold up pretty well. My pants last year had a 5k waterproof rating and I survived. But generally you're going to want soming around 10k-15k waterproofing and breathability.


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## PaoloSmythe

my understanding of the ratings whose units are expressed in millimeters is as follows.

imagine an area of fabric about the size of your average droplet of liquid. now imagine that droplet being 5000mm tall. that is a 5000 rating of water 'proofness'.

as far as breathability goes.... my memory fails.... presumably if the same logic as above was applied, the preferred rating would be smaller.... you don't want to sweat 5000mm of body juice before it is allowed to escape your clothes!

yeah i got nuffink! fekkin jet lag.... but i know somewhere that does:

Ellis Brigham » Performance Fabrics Glossary


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## Kjerstin Klein

*Exotex 5,000 Slope Worthy Value*

The DC Shoe Co. Makes some great gear. Personally, I love 'em. Exotex 5,000 is their opening price point weather protection but at that price point they seam seal all of the critical seams - meaning those seams that are most likely to leak are sealed shut with a special tape. The 5K stands for 5,000 mm of water resistance and the 5,000 g is the breathability. For most conditions that is more than sufficient and at the price you can't beat it.

The real question is what are you going to be doing in the jacket and will the basic level of weather protection be enough. If you are hard core - stay out in the rain all day 5,000 mm probably isn't going to be enough to keep you dry. If you ride really hard, hike the pipe, do the back country etc. then 5,000 g breathability may not be enough - but then that is what you have vents for!

If you like the jacket I'd say go for it - it is a good deal and should cover you in all basic conditions. If you find it just isn't keeping up with what you need next year you can invest in something with a better rating and keep this one for back up.

Make sure to wash the jacket regularily - this will help to keep the weather protecting matterials at the surface and keep the pores of the jacket open so it can continue to breath.

Layer properly under the jacket so that you have a good 'moisture management' system going to aid in with breathability.

If you need help on either of these points or have further questions on the jacket you know where to find me!

Ride hard!


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## Guest

That's an interesting point about the regular washing of the jackets/pants. I have heard elsewhere (either on this forum or just around) that washing should be done minimally to not wear out the "waterproofiness". There are special soaps to protect against this. Let me know if I'm wrong.


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## Kjerstin Klein

*Washing Out Waterproofing*

You aren't wrong - just don't have the whole picture. Weatherproofing, depending on the quality of the garment, comes from a combonaiton of several components. The outermost aspect of weatherproofing is the DWR layer - Durable Water Resitant layer. This is typically a spray-on or wash-in liquid fabric coating and is what is responsible for the beads of water you see when you are sitting on the lift. The quality of DWR layers varies greatly and is effected by washing in two ways. First dirt and oils that cling to it will decrease its effectiveness and may allow water to penetrate instead of beading up - so washing will help. Second these coatings will 'sink' into the fabric after time leaving less on the surface to do battle with the weather. The heat from washing and drying will help bring this to the surface again.

The bad news is yes, this coating will eventually wash out - again the wash-out rate will depend on quality. I saw one statistic that said that mid quality DWR coatings should last for about 27 washings. That is a lot of washings in my book. At any rate you are correct about using the right wash - sport specific wash like G-Wash will go a long way to protect the DWR layer. There are also some products that wash in that will replace or at least extend the life of the DWR to some degree. The key is to buy quality and take good care of it.

As far as the other weatherproofing layers the most common is the waterproof/breathable layer. This is a porous membrane that is either laminated to the back of the fabric or a free-floating layer but either way the pores will stretch and give with use and eventually let moisture through. The action of washing and the exposure to heat and water will cause those pores to reconfigure, re-establishing the like-new quality of the membrane.

Hope you enjoyed your crash course on fabric technology!


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## Guest

PaoloSmythe said:


> as far as breathability goes.... my memory fails.... presumably if the same logic as above was applied, the preferred rating would be smaller.... you don't want to sweat 5000mm of body juice before it is allowed to escape your clothes!


You reversed it a bit here.

Breathability is how much moisture it can move away in a given amount of time. Usually expressed in grams per square meter per hour. 5000gm would mean that you can sweat up to 5000gm^2 and the fabric will breathe it out so to speak, but any more than that and you will start to get wet. Just like waterproof rating, higher is better.


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## Kjerstin Klein

*Bigger Is Better*

*Outphase84* has it right - the higher the breathability number the better. It is easy to make something waterproof - a plastic bag is waterproof. It is also easy to make something breathable - a wool sweater is breathable. The trick is to make something both waterproof AND breathable. You chemistry types would love the fabric industry! It is pretty cool what they are able to do these days and we in the snowboard world are lucky to be on the cutting edge of the industry. Truly - we get some of the best stuff - straight from NASA to your bod!

To make a fabric both waterproof and breathable they use a combination of liquid coatings and laminate layers. The coatings I have already talked about - they create a barrier that does not allow water droplets (the liquid form of water) to soak into a garment. The laminate layers are key however because they are made of a a porous material that stop water droplets from getting through but allows water _vaporto pass. Sweat, by the way, is water vapor, or steam, the gas form of water.

So the key is in the rating. It is hard, and therefore expensive, to make a stable laminate layer that has enough of these tiny holes (pores) to allow the garment to breath effectively. The more holes the better you breath. The more holes, the higher the rating.

Ok, I realize this is a totally over-simplified explanation of some of the most advanced fabrics on the planet but it should help with your basic understanding of the breathability side of the equation.

One thing to keep in mind is that breathability is only for moisture vapor. That is why what you layer with is so important. If you have sweat that builds up so you are dripping wet that sweat isn't going anywhere. You need to layer with wicking layers that draw the moisture away from your skin and will allow that moisture to evaporate through those little holes we just discussed. Anything that feels wet to the touch when you take it off is not a wicking layer.

Wicking layers spread the moisture out over a large surface area and will feel essentially dry to the touch even when they are saturated. Fabrics that wick are true performance fleece (no not the junk you buy at the mall), constructed hollow core fabrics and some treated natural fabrics but NOT COTTON.

Aside from leaving you feeling waterlogged any sweat that builds up will suck all of the heat out of you. The first rule of keeping warm is keeping dry. So ditch the cotton hoody for the slopes, layer with stuff that wicks and stick gear that breaths._


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## Triple8Sol

I go with at least 20K or preferrably Gore-Tex for pants, since I spend alot of time hiking the sidecounty, building jumps, sitting on lifts, etc... Jacket isn't as critical, except on rainy days. I try to go with 10K or higher for coats. I also stick to gloves with gore-tex inserts.


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## Guest

What do you recommend for layering under the jacket and pants (specifically in Arizona)? It's my first time snowboarding and I don't have a lot of money to spend on gear (already bought pants, jacket and boots). Can I wear an Under Armour short-sleeved, crew neck shirt with a long-sleeved, cotton crew neck shirt over it, and a fleece jacket over it, and my 10,000mm jacket over that? Is that too much? What brand would you recommend for undergarments and socks, or what characteristics should I look for in those?


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## Incogneato

one thing you guys are missing is that numbers are for the waterproof/breathable laminate or coating ONLY and not the entire garment. a jacket with a thin outerlayer that the laminate or coating is applied to will breath better than a jacket with a thick heavy canvas or tweed like material, also, the brethabillity will be less in a jacket with lots of seams that are taped than a more simply jacket with less tape (the tape is used to seal the areas that are sewed together and is not breathable), and jackets with heavy linings are not as breathable as jackets with mesh or open linings, so just take the numbers with a grain of salt


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## ckang008

Kjerstin Klein said:


> The DC Shoe Co. Makes some great gear. Personally, I love 'em. Exotex 5,000 is their opening price point weather protection but at that price point they seam seal all of the critical seams - meaning those seams that are most likely to leak are sealed shut with a special tape. The 5K stands for 5,000 mm of water resistance and the 5,000 g is the breathability. For most conditions that is more than sufficient and at the price you can't beat it.
> 
> The real question is what are you going to be doing in the jacket and will the basic level of weather protection be enough. If you are hard core - stay out in the rain all day 5,000 mm probably isn't going to be enough to keep you dry. If you ride really hard, hike the pipe, do the back country etc. then 5,000 g breathability may not be enough - but then that is what you have vents for!
> 
> If you like the jacket I'd say go for it - it is a good deal and should cover you in all basic conditions. If you find it just isn't keeping up with what you need next year you can invest in something with a better rating and keep this one for back up.
> 
> Make sure to wash the jacket regularily - this will help to keep the weather protecting matterials at the surface and keep the pores of the jacket open so it can continue to breath.
> 
> Layer properly under the jacket so that you have a good 'moisture management' system going to aid in with breathability.
> 
> If you need help on either of these points or have further questions on the jacket you know where to find me!
> 
> Ride hard!









Thanks for this post. I've been wearing Grenade outerwear and they aren't great in terms of being waterproof. i see a 15000g Rhodan pants for sale from DC. thinking of getting that now. thx


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## Kjerstin Klein

Great! Let me know if there is anything else I can help with!

Ride hard!


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## Guest

Tarjida said:


> What do you recommend for layering under the jacket and pants (specifically in Arizona)? It's my first time snowboarding and I don't have a lot of money to spend on gear (already bought pants, jacket and boots). Can I wear an Under Armour short-sleeved, crew neck shirt with a long-sleeved, cotton crew neck shirt over it, and a fleece jacket over it, and my 10,000mm jacket over that? Is that too much? What brand would you recommend for undergarments and socks, or what characteristics should I look for in those?


cheap set of polyester long underwear tops and bottoms for your base layer. Polartec pants and long sleeve shirt for your insulation layer and your jacket and pants for your outer shell. Ditch the polartec if its a warm/hot day. If its not hip/cool enough then a triple long cotton t-shirt and hoodie with a beanie and just put up with being cold and wet. 

oh, and on a budget then go to goodwill and search for polyester i.e. "old person clothes" 

same thing with your feet. polyester boot liners topped with a good set of merol wool socks. Or, goodwill for polyster business socks as a liner.


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## yusoweird

I read somewhere that the breathable rating is just a number that should only be used to rate products within the same company. And I can confirm that the statement is true. 

My DC Angstrom (10k breathable rating with eVent fabric) jacket breaths ALOT better than my Special blend autograph jacket (15k breathable rating with Gore-Tex). The difference was like night and day to me. I can wear my DC jacket with the same amount of layers and stay just as warm, but never too hot and stuffy. With the Special blend Gore-Tex, I would start to feel stuffy after a couple minutes.


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## legallyillegal

gore-tex is a completely different thing from regular fabrics


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## yusoweird

legallyillegal said:


> gore-tex is a completely different thing from regular fabrics


Not sure if you are referring to my post. But eVent and Gore-Tex both try to achieve the same result. I don't understand what do you mean?


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## legallyillegal

eVent is also completely different from regular fabrics

also, eVent and gore-tex are also different in how they work


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## Incogneato

event is only different from goretex in that they don't coat the inside of the goretex with a oil repellent layer. the waterproof breathable ePTFE layer can be clogged by dirt and oils, so gore protects that layer with another layer, which hampers its breathabillity a little bit. event gets around this by making the ePTFE layer itself oleophobic. how that is done is a trade secret. this essentially removes one layer that affects the breathabillity.

from an industry site

_A few years ago, the U.S. Army’s Soldier System Center in Natick, Mass., performed breathability tests on some common outdoor fabrics. Leading the pack of tested materials was the eVent laminate which, depending on relative humidity, was between 1.3 and 3 times more breathable than the next best material, Gore-Tex XCR. Following this, the results clustered together, with the best-performing materials approximately twice as breathable as the least. In descending order of breathability, the results were: Gore-Tex XCR, Gore-Tex (standard), HydroSeal (The North Face), Membrain (Marmot), Sympatex, Conduit (Mountain Hardwear), and OmniTech (Columbia)._


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## crazyface

what about psi waterproof ratings??

i found these north face pants that have a 25 psi rating in materproofing and a 625-675g breathability rating.
The North Face Monte Cargo Print Pant - Men's from Backcountry.com


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## Guest

I was told that if you use a ph neutral detergent when washing the jacket it will aid in not removing the weatherproofing additive as quickly as something like Tide.Learn more about buying a snowboarding jacket


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## Kjerstin Klein

*Psi*



crazyface said:


> what about psi waterproof ratings??
> 
> i found these north face pants that have a 25 psi rating in materproofing and a 625-675g breathability rating.
> The North Face Monte Cargo Print Pant - Men's from Backcountry.com


Not sure if it is still useful info for you or not since you have probably long since purchased a pair of new pants  Figured I'd give a quicky answer though just to clarify and keep this thread up to speed.

PSI stands for Pounds per Square Inch just like it did in your high school physics class...basically it is an indication of how much pressure the garment can withstand before water seeps in...in this case the garment can withstand 25 pounds of pressure per inch of fabric before moisture seeps in. The average guy exerts about 16 pounds of pressure per square inch kneeling on the ground. The fabric is tested in what is refered to as the Mullen's Test and is one of the industry standards but is slightly different than the Water Column Test in which a tube of water, 1 inch in diameter is filled with water to test how many millimeters of water the fabric can withstand before leaking over a 24 hour period of time. Water Column Test values are shown in millimeters (mm).

To compare mm rated fabrics to PSI rated fabrics keep in mind that 576.834 mm = 1 PSI so a 25 PSI rated fabric is approximately equivalent to a 15,000 mm jacket (give or take 570.15 mm)

Hope this helps!


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## Kjerstin Klein

*Performance Fabric Wash*



piper said:


> I was told that if you use a ph neutral detergent when washing the jacket it will aid in not removing the weatherproofing additive as quickly as something like Tide.Learn more about buying a snowboarding jacket


The important thing to keep in mind is that proper washing of performance fabrics will improve rather than damage performance. Proper washing clears the pores to improve breathability, re-lofts insulations and helps DWR coatings to rise back to the surface.

By 'Proper' washing I mean using gentle cleaners that do not strip weather protective coatings, damage hollow-core fabrics or clogg microporous laminate layers - so NOT Tide...or any other comercial laundry detergents. I could say plenty about these products but since we are talking about performance fabrics I'll keep my rant on that topic alone 

PH balance is only one componenet of performance fabric wash - the gentle cleaners used break down sweat and body oils that block pores without leaving deposits comercial cleaners leave behind - not to gross you out but your typical commercial cleaners leave so much junk behind that after 10 washings deposits account for nearly 2% of the fabrics weight (see the Clemson University Rinseabilty Test). Many of these specialty performance fabric washes retreat garments with 'wash-in' DWR coatings to help sustain the factory DWR finish to improve longevity.

Don't worry, if you have used commercial detergents or soaps on your garments most quality goods can be restored to their former glory by using a sport specific wash a couple of times to remove the deposits left behind. There are many on the market but I suggest Axis G-Wash.


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## Muki

Great info, Thanks! Still researching on jackets, though.:thumbsup:


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## Guest

Kjerstin Klein said:


> The important thing to keep in mind is that proper washing of performance fabrics will improve rather than damage performance. Proper washing clears the pores to improve breathability, re-lofts insulations and helps DWR coatings to rise back to the surface.
> 
> By 'Proper' washing I mean using gentle cleaners that do not strip weather protective coatings, damage hollow-core fabrics or clogg microporous laminate layers - so NOT Tide...or any other comercial laundry detergents. I could say plenty about these products but since we are talking about performance fabrics I'll keep my rant on that topic alone
> 
> PH balance is only one componenet of performance fabric wash - the gentle cleaners used break down sweat and body oils that block pores without leaving deposits comercial cleaners leave behind - not to gross you out but your typical commercial cleaners leave so much junk behind that after 10 washings deposits account for nearly 2% of the fabrics weight (see the Clemson University Rinseabilty Test). Many of these specialty performance fabric washes retreat garments with 'wash-in' DWR coatings to help sustain the factory DWR finish to improve longevity.
> 
> Don't worry, if you have used commercial detergents or soaps on your garments most quality goods can be restored to their former glory by using a sport specific wash a couple of times to remove the deposits left behind. There are many on the market but I suggest Axis G-Wash.


The only issue with washing tech outerwear, with a tech wash/wash-in reproofer, is that it may affect the breathability, of said membrane. The best thing to do is read instructions, use a tech wash (without reproofer), & once washed, use a spray on DWR coating, & use per directions (Granger XT, NikWax, Stormguard).
As for the waterproof, make sure you get the correct rating for the conditions. We have wet snow, in the Nth Island, & dryer snow, in the Sth Island, & considering most of the outerwear is designed for dryer, northern hemispere conditions, we have to be careful at what rating we get, & what kind of outer fabric is used, & this is what a lot of ppl don't quite get, or don't get told, by the person selling them the product - the outer fabric is as important, as the tech membrane (pending if it's a laminate, or not). Example; you could have a 10,000mm/10,000gm/24 outerwear, with a nylon outer fabric, & a 5000mm/5000gm/24hr outerwear, with a twill or herringbone fabric. What this may mean is that the outerwear that is a twill fabric, & lesser ratings, wont "wet out" as fast as the nylon fabric, with the higher rating. Wet out is a term to discribe a saturation point of the fabric, when it stops repelling water, & breathing. This can be caused by heaving or driving snow or rain, over a certain time frame...

Something else to consider...

Now, as another example, Helly Hanson have in their wash instructions (Helly Tech, XP, & O2), a statement that tells you that the waterproof rating will half, with x amount of standard washes, without re waterproofing, so again, always check manufacturers instructions


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## Officer Shred

Here's a really good article on outerwear technology.

Outerwear Tech | Boardworld


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## Guest

But breathability goes with temperature right? Last season I rode in temperatures around -10'C/15'F so I am hoping I will be OK with 5000 - 8000 breathability. Can't remember sweating much at the time.


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## Guest

Hi everyone, this is my first time buying snowboarding gear. I need a jack and pants. I was told that shell is a good material but most of the sites that i go on have limited shell selection. Can someone please explain to me the difference between shell and dura shell. I was thinking of buying the Nomis Simon Chamberlain Shell Snowboard Pants Black. Right now they go for $190, 20,000mm/20,000m/24hrs Laminated Fabrics with Teflon DWR. Thanks!


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## killclimbz

It's a shell. If it has insulation it's going to be more than just a shell. You should be fine as long as it doesn't sport insulation.


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## TABLECHAIRS

Does anyone have experience with the fjallraven waterproof/breathable fabric "hydratic iq"?
It is supposed to stop breathing when it gets colder, the pores in the fabric close up, which sounds like it could be bad unless your body heat is enough to warm it when you sweat??
I'm looking at buying a jacket online.


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## Kjerstin Klein

I am not familiar with that brand but it sounds a lot like THERMORE...it is probably the _insulation_ pores that are constricting not the pores of the breathable membrane. It is critical to have breathability even in the cold for moisture transfer. If it is like THERMORE, however, then it is considered a 'smart' insulation that reacts to the body heat you are putting off and as it warms up there is a structural change in the insulating fibers that allows for more heat to escape. Conversely, when the temperature drops the fibers constrict to restrict the release of body heat.

The reason these fibers are rated so highly is because the challenge in active, outdoor sports is to remain at a _constant_ temperature - balance is more important because it allows the body to adapt instead of sea-sawing from hot to cold.

Hope this helps!

See ya on the slopes!


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## skatesurfsnow

YouTube - Gore-Tex, What It Is And How It Works
This might help you, let me know if!


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## Jim

I'm wondering about the Columbia brand of jackets and pants, they don't list waterproof or breathe-ability numbers, how can we judge these to compare with others?


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## J.Schaef

Jim said:


> I'm wondering about the Columbia brand of jackets and pants, they don't list waterproof or breathe-ability numbers, how can we judge these to compare with others?


This is just copied and pasted off Sierratradingpost.

Examples of Waterproof/Breathability Ratings for Major Manufacturers

Columbia Sportswear Omni-Tech® (Adults) 10,000/10,000
Columbia Sportswear Omni-Tech® (Kids) 5,000/5,000
Event Event 30,000/22,000
Gore-Tex® PacLite® 28,000/15,000
Gore-Tex® Pro-Shell 2-Layer 28,000/25,000
Gore-Tex® Pro-Shell 3-Layer 28,000/25,000
Lowe Alpine Triplepoint® 3-Layer 20,000/20,000
Marmot MemBrain® 20,000/25,000
Marmot PreCip® 15,000/12,000
Marmot PreCip Plus® 25,000/15,000
Mountain Hardwear Conduit 20,000/20,000
Sierra Designs Hurricane 8,000/2,000
Sierra Designs Microlight 600 N/A


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## CustomX - J-rad

J.Schaef said:


> This is just copied and pasted off Sierratradingpost.
> 
> Examples of Waterproof/Breathability Ratings for Major Manufacturers
> 
> Columbia Sportswear Omni-Tech® (Adults) 10,000/10,000
> Columbia Sportswear Omni-Tech® (Kids) 5,000/5,000
> Event Event 30,000/22,000
> Gore-Tex® PacLite® 28,000/15,000
> Gore-Tex® Pro-Shell 2-Layer 28,000/25,000
> Gore-Tex® Pro-Shell 3-Layer 28,000/25,000
> Lowe Alpine Triplepoint® 3-Layer 20,000/20,000
> Marmot MemBrain® 20,000/25,000
> Marmot PreCip® 15,000/12,000
> Marmot PreCip Plus® 25,000/15,000
> Mountain Hardwear Conduit 20,000/20,000
> Sierra Designs Hurricane 8,000/2,000
> Sierra Designs Microlight 600 N/A


Damn, didn't know gore-tex had a rating. lol, i guess you gotta search for it, but i love my gore pants so much i dont give a shit what it is, they are beautiful, uber water-proof and dry suuuupppperrrrr fast


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## Jim

Thanks, it would be nice if they just put it in the specs like everyone else, for example I don't think omni tech is the only kind that Columbia has...


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## Incogneato

i wouldn't just automatically trust those numbers. gore has never released its numbers (other than RET) so they are either made up or some shoddy at home test or something.


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## J.Schaef

They may not be 100% accurate, but even a "shoddy at home test" should be able to give you a reasonable estimate (which is all that is claimed by sierra trading post)


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## Mishtar

J.Schaef said:


> This is just copied and pasted off Sierratradingpost.
> 
> Examples of Waterproof/Breathability Ratings for Major Manufacturers
> 
> Columbia Sportswear Omni-Tech® (Adults) 10,000/10,000
> Columbia Sportswear Omni-Tech® (Kids) 5,000/5,000
> Event Event 30,000/22,000
> Gore-Tex® PacLite® 28,000/15,000
> Gore-Tex® Pro-Shell 2-Layer 28,000/25,000
> Gore-Tex® Pro-Shell 3-Layer 28,000/25,000
> Lowe Alpine Triplepoint® 3-Layer 20,000/20,000
> Marmot MemBrain® 20,000/25,000
> Marmot PreCip® 15,000/12,000
> Marmot PreCip Plus® 25,000/15,000
> Mountain Hardwear Conduit 20,000/20,000
> Sierra Designs Hurricane 8,000/2,000
> Sierra Designs Microlight 600 N/A



SO I have been reading through the forums and saw this article and it has been very knowledgable, thank you. I was curious about peoples opinions on the following two pairs of Pants, they are on sale so not to bad right now. I live up on Vancouver Island in BC Canada and we tend to get a lot of damp snow since we are so close to the ocean.

The first ones are more of a skiing pant but I do like the Bib style.
Spyder Bormio Pant - On Sale - Men's - GearBuyer.com

The spyders claim to have 20k water resistance and 30k breatability but that would make it more breatable then both eVENT and Gore-tex.

The other pair are these Burtons which seem nice as well.

Burton AK 2L Cyclic Pants - On Sale - Men's - GearBuyer.com


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## Kjerstin Klein

*Apples to Oranges*



Mishtar said:


> SO I have been reading through the forums and saw this article and it has been very knowledgable, thank you. I was curious about peoples opinions on the following two pairs of Pants, they are on sale so not to bad right now. I live up on Vancouver Island in BC Canada and we tend to get a lot of damp snow since we are so close to the ocean.
> 
> The first ones are more of a skiing pant but I do like the Bib style.
> Spyder Bormio Pant - On Sale - Men's - GearBuyer.com
> 
> The spyders claim to have 20k water resistance and 30k breatability but that would make it more breatable then both eVENT and Gore-tex.
> 
> The other pair are these Burtons which seem nice as well.
> 
> Burton AK 2L Cyclic Pants - On Sale - Men's - GearBuyer.com


You are comparing two totally different pants - you might as well ask if you should drive a Ferrari or a Land Rover 

The Spyder is not 'more' of a ski pant it is the epitome of ski pants. Don't get me wrong - it is a GREAT pant. It is insulated, has super weather protection and the suspenders are great. It has a narrow fit from Hip and Leg down to the ankle - this is IN these days in both ski and snowboard but you have to decide if you like that. It is made in a mechanical stretch fabric so there is give and it is not a_tight_ fit, just narrow.

The Burton is a Gore-tex product, it is a 2 ply shell with waterproof zips - also a top of the line for waterproofness but has a baggy fit - not huge but more of the traditional snowboard cut. Keep in mind, it is just a shell.

To make a good decision you need to think about how you are going to use the pant - what conditions do you REALLY find yourself in and consider the style you like best, what suits your personal taste as well as where/what you ride.

Both pants are great quality, you won't go wrong with that - good luck!

See ya on the slopes!


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## Mishtar

Kjerstin Klein said:


> You are comparing two totally different pants - you might as well ask if you should drive a Ferrari or a Land Rover
> 
> The Spyder is not 'more' of a ski pant it is the epitome of ski pants. Don't get me wrong - it is a GREAT pant. It is insulated, has super weather protection and the suspenders are great. It has a narrow fit from Hip and Leg down to the ankle - this is IN these days in both ski and snowboard but you have to decide if you like that. It is made in a mechanical stretch fabric so there is give and it is not a_tight_ fit, just narrow.
> 
> The Burton is a Gore-tex product, it is a 2 ply shell with waterproof zips - also a top of the line for waterproofness but has a baggy fit - not huge but more of the traditional snowboard cut. Keep in mind, it is just a shell.
> 
> To make a good decision you need to think about how you are going to use the pant - what conditions do you REALLY find yourself in and consider the style you like best, what suits your personal taste as well as where/what you ride.
> 
> Both pants are great quality, you won't go wrong with that - good luck!
> 
> See ya on the slopes!



Thank you Kjerstin, I am 38 so I grew up skiing and don't mind the smaller pants. I may move back into skiing so it is all good. I do love suspenders as well I just find they keep me much dryer then just using a snow skirt.

Are these ones more lined? Burton AK 2L Stagger Pants - On Sale - Men's - GearBuyer.com it mentions something but I thought they would be the same as the Cyclic pants. They are about 2/3 of the price of the Sypers and I could live with out the bibs. I just really want something I can wear in all waether. Just boxers when it is warm and no more then long johns when it is cold.


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## Kjerstin Klein

Mishtar,

The Stagger pant is also a 2 layer Gore-tex pant but it has a fleece lined butt and knee - nice pant but you have to layer under it for cold days. A shell is a good option if you tend to hike the pipe/park a lot and don't typically get cold. If getting wet is a bigger problem than staying warm it is good to stick with a highly waterproof shell...fleece pants and thermals are an easy way to layer effectively under a shell for the colder days 

See ya on the slopes!


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## thtrussiankid01

so we shouldnt use laundry detergent when we put our gear in the washer. If we just use water and no soap at all will it get my gear clean and not loose waterproofness or be completely pointless.


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## jsouza

Personally I use either Dr Bronners soap or Seventh Generation HE powder when I wash my snow/technical gear in the washing machine. For my front load washer, I use 1 to 2 oz of Dr Bronners or about 1/2 the recommended amount of SG powder.

SG powder detergent is not common, I don't use the liquid variety because labels generally suggest powder. As far as Dr B soap goes, that stuff is mild an a soap rather than detergent so I think it should be safe.


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## HuskyFlip

I'm a new rider and am shopping for jackets and pants that are on end of season sale/clearance. I just wanted to thank member, Kjerstin Klein, for the great info. :thumbsup: Not if, but WHEN I fall and stay warm and dry in my new threads, it's because I shopped smarter because of your posts.


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## MI_canuck

after getting my gear wet too many times, both from snow/pow and lack or breathability (ie. sweating), GoreTex is definitely worth price... I've tried others, like the Patagonia H2NO, and some other genericly rated stuff (like 8K/10K) from Volcom, and it just doesn't work as well as true GoreTex... great time of year right now to pick up Gore stuff for good discount...


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## MikeCL

I can't remember if it's been said here but when washing these jackets what care should I be doing?

I'm not sure if I can skip the 2nd layer? say it's in the low 20's (F) do I need a second layer? I need to get my jacket soon before Dec better yet before the end of Nov.


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## LuckyRVA

MikeCL said:


> I can't remember if it's been said here but when washing these jackets what care should I be doing?
> 
> I'm not sure if I can skip the 2nd layer? say it's in the low 20's (F) do I need a second layer?


It depends on what makes your outerwear water resistant. If it has a DWR coating you'll want to wash it with Nikwax detergent, not regular laundry detergent. I believe anything with goretex can be washed with regular liquid laundry detergent. Best best is to follow the directions on the tag. 

Whether you need a second later will depend in what type of jacket you get and whether or not it is insulated (and how much insulation it has). I always wear shells which has no insulation. So, a second layer is needed. With heavily insulted jackets you may not need it.


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## hktrdr

LuckyRVA said:


> It depends on what makes your outerwear water resistant. *If it has a DWR coating you'll want to wash it with Nikwax detergent, not regular laundry detergent. I believe anything with goretex can be washed with regular liquid laundry detergent. *Best best is to follow the directions on the tag.


That does not quite make sense: Most Goretex garments have the DWR coating.


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## LuckyRVA

hktrdr said:


> That does not quite make sense: Most Goretex garments have the DWR coating.


Just going off of http://www.gore-tex.com/remote/Satellite/content/care-center/washing-instructions


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## MikeCL

hmmm since I live at a apartment I'm concerned about the last person who used it and maybe bleach.. but we just got some new machines so you don't hear all that water left in the tub like the old machines.

But that Gore-tex site pretty much answered a question I kind of already figured out about washing with heavy soiled clothes.

About the drying cycle it seems like they are hinting at drying it twice on low for a total of 40 min?

lol sorry if I'm asking too many questions, people always make fun of me for following directions by the T on stuff.


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## hktrdr

LuckyRVA said:


> Just going off of Washing Instructions - GORE-TEX® Products


Which says exactly what I stated: Goretex items have a DWR coating (that is why they should be tumbled dried/ironed).
My point was that your post made it sound like there was an 'either-or' (either Goretex or DWR) wile it essentially is 'and' for Goretex. There are of course plenty of garment with DWR but without Goretex...


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## LuckyRVA

hktrdr said:


> Which says exactly what I stated: Goretex items have a DWR coating (that is why they should be tumbled dried/ironed).
> My point was that your post made it sound like there was an 'either-or' (either Goretex or DWR) wile it essentially is 'and' for Goretex. There are of course plenty of garment with DWR but without Goretex...


Or you could follow the directions on the tag of the garment which is what I also said


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## hktrdr

LuckyRVA said:


> Or you could follow the directions on the tag of the garment which is what I also said


Oh, definitely. Was not disagreeing with you at all, just highlighting that Goretex still means that there is DWR - which is something that many people do not know/understand (instead believing that the Goretex membrane provides all the waterproofing).


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## morfologus

What do you think could I experience a significant difference between the Analog Deploy (Goretex) jacket with 28000mm waterproofness and the Armada Armory jacket with 10000mm?
Does this value depend on the brands or it is exact?


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## JaimeNG

Question: Can a Jacket be Goretex and insulated at the same time? Where would you take this jacket to? I'm having troubles finding a jacket that I like in terms of design, insulation and waterproof rate. I have an OR GTX shell that I use for climbing and spring/fall days but I wand something warmer. Anybody has some advice? Thanks!


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## Snow Hound

A shell and layers is more versatile than a heavily insulated jacket.


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## Craig64

Here is a good link for explaining waterproofing and breath-ability of fabrics

https://www.snowbiz.com.au/waterproof-guide-ski-snowboard


In Australia you need Goretex or equivalent type fabric as the Temp' in Winter generally hovers around the the 0 degree C range so it can be snowing and it melts on you straight away.


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