# Base theories, pro snowboarders, and too many choices



## Shocktroop531 (Aug 3, 2010)

It's all about the power of the banana for me. last season, I rode a Lib Tech for the first time, and I was immediately a changed man. I'll never go back to straight up cambered.


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## Qball (Jun 22, 2010)

As an example, Travis Rice never used the normal banana tech and stuck with camber (with magne traction) until he switched over to the new C2 banana shape.

My favorite shape is the rocker/camber like C2 and never summer's RC tech. Try not to get caught up in the all the buzz words these companies throw around, a lot of the stuff is more marketing than it is function. 

I don't think it sucks that there are so many different options out there though. Variety is a good thing and you just have to learn how to weed out the bullshit.


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## phile00 (Jan 7, 2009)

Qball said:


> As an example, Travis Rice never used the normal banana tech and stuck with camber (with magne traction) until he switched over to the new C2 banana shape.
> 
> My favorite shape is the rocker/camber like C2 and never summer's RC tech. Try not to get caught up in the all the buzz words these companies throw around, a lot of the stuff is more marketing than it is function.
> 
> I don't think it sucks that there are so many different options out there though. Variety is a good thing and you just have to learn how to weed out the bullshit.


I own a Neversummer EVO-R and a Bataleon Goliath. Both great boards. I'm definitely a fan of NS's RC tech. There are two board techs I really haven't tried yet, and they are flat and camber between the bindings, rocker outside (like YES boards, and to a more mellow degree Ride boards, and the like). 

From a philosophical standpoint, I honestly thing that too many choices can be crippling for a consumer. Check out this TED talk on the Paradox of Choice. It's pretty compelling. Barry Schwartz on the paradox of choice | Video on TED.com


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## BurtonAvenger (Aug 14, 2007)

Someone fails to do research.


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## Roundabout136 (Aug 26, 2008)

Check out my review of the 2010 skate banana in the review section. 

The new technology's kick ass. Jump on it.


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## JoeR (Oct 30, 2010)

phile00 said:


> From a philosophical standpoint, I honestly thing that too many choices can be crippling for a consumer. Check out this TED talk on the Paradox of Choice. It's pretty compelling. Barry Schwartz on the paradox of choice | Video on TED.com


I get to post this lovely thing again:


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## JoeR (Oct 30, 2010)

phile00 said:


> The real solution is to be able to demo all boards


That would be the best of all possible worlds (well, _almost_ the best -- the time invested would be a huge transaction cost ) -- but the question is, how can you make an informed decision _without_ demoing all, or maybe even any, boards?

Btw, I think a lot can be learned from reviews, if you focus on the most thorough ones and then extract their common elements. As a Ride buyer, I will say that Mr. Tidbit's reviews on the Ride Nation forum are extremely helpful. Not only does he describe the characteristics of the boards in great detail, but he posts photos of the actual terrain/snow conditions he and his wife ride on the boards being reviewed, and has even posted GPS read-outs showing his downhill speed.

The crucial first step in choosing among the bewildering variety of camber options is to RULE STUFF OUT. You don't need to consider everything carefully. Don't be stymied by the quest for the "perfect" board; it doesn't exist. Limit your more in-depth consideration to a few options that you reasonably believe will be suitable, and the task is much more manageable. In my case, I eliminated many potential options right away, just to cut the project down to size:

traditional camber -- I was coming from a camber board, so I wanted something different.
pure rocker -- For my all-mountain/freeriding needs, this wouldn't have been suitable.
eccentric designs -- Single-company specialties such as Flying-V and Triple Base Technology may be very nice, but I wasn't inclined to be experimental when putting up my own money.
This left me with two major groups of boards: flat or cambered in the middle with rocker on the outside, and rockered at the middle with camber on the outside. I chose to focus on the former group because I thought it would present the easiest, most predictable and comfortable transition from a regular camber board. I narrowed my search to a small group of 4-5 boards with similar tech, so I never felt adrift in a sea of choices. Someone else could have applied different limiting principles and arrived at a completely different set of final options. The key is not to flinch when restricting your choices.


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## wrathfuldeity (Oct 5, 2007)

Newbs and intermediate don't know...thus at the mercy of others.

Experts and pros select the board to match what they want to do and the presenting conditions/terrain with knowledge that there are often some compromises; and adjust their technique to take advantage of the design and when there are compromises.

Personally, a twin cambered, mag with medium flex...covers alot of bases


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## Shocktroop531 (Aug 3, 2010)

I wish I had the money to be able to have many different boards for different conditions. I'd love to try that Travis Rice Banana Hammock (full rocker) board on a deep pow day. but the thing would be worthless on non pow days


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## Qball (Jun 22, 2010)

phile00 said:


> I own a Neversummer EVO-R and a Bataleon Goliath. Both great boards. I'm definitely a fan of NS's RC tech. There are two board techs I really haven't tried yet, and they are flat and camber between the bindings, rocker outside (like YES boards, and to a more mellow degree Ride boards, and the like).
> 
> From a philosophical standpoint, I honestly thing that too many choices can be crippling for a consumer. Check out this TED talk on the Paradox of Choice. It's pretty compelling. Barry Schwartz on the paradox of choice | Video on TED.com


So you want less choices so it's easier to choose? That just makes no sense to me at all.


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## phile00 (Jan 7, 2009)

BurtonAvenger said:


> Someone fails to do research.


I've done plenty of research and I don't really need a new board. I'm just interested in new base shapes and demoing boards really. Although technologies are similar across companies, the actual engineering is different. I feel like it's hard to decide what tech actually works the best especially given varying levels of ability. I've found your reviews to be pretty informative and you understand the technical side of things, but you're not the only reviewer. And you don't review every board that I'd like (and I don't expect you to, you're only one person). 

Let me ask you something...with all the boards you've tested, do you ever find yourself over analyzing the ride because the differences are so subtle? 



Qball said:


> So you want less choices so it's easier to choose? That just makes no sense to me at all.


Not necessarily. Just watch the talk, give it some consideration, and chime in from there.

Also, aside from Travis Rice, which other pro riders actually use the technology that these snowboard companies are marketing the shit out of?


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## Qball (Jun 22, 2010)

Jeremy Jones uses a version of magne traction on his boards along with a camber/rocker shape.


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## JoeR (Oct 30, 2010)

Qball said:


> Jeremy Jones uses a version of magne traction on his boards along with a camber/rocker shape.


But it's even more than that, isn't it? Doesn't Jones actually use the exact boards that his company sells, i.e., the Flagship, Solution, Mountain Twin, etc.? Not modified or custom jobs? That's my understanding.


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## trucktown (Sep 25, 2010)

phile00 said:


> Let me ask you something...with all the boards you've tested, do you ever find yourself over analyzing the ride because the differences are so subtle?


I know this is ignoring most of your (and others) post but I will say this:

There is nothing subtle about the difference of a banana vs others *IMO*


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## phile00 (Jan 7, 2009)

trucktown said:


> I know this is ignoring most of your (and others) post but I will say this:
> 
> There is nothing subtle about the difference of a banana vs others *IMO*


Sure, I'm aware that a pure rocker is very different than a pure cambered board.


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## BurtonAvenger (Aug 14, 2007)

phile00 said:


> Let me ask you something...with all the boards you've tested, do you ever find yourself over analyzing the ride because the differences are so subtle?


I really don't analyze anything I go out hit some jumps, rip some carves, butter around, ride over a rock or two, jib some shit and see how it feels. People put way too much thought into a board these days when it can be broken down into "what do I need, what do I want, does it look cool'


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## Extremo (Nov 6, 2008)

I think there are too many options out there as well...and I'll never get to try most of them. So tried and true camber is what I'll always ride. The few alt camber/alt base boards I've tried didn't compare to the response and stability of camber. I hate loose, spagetti, and drifty boards and have yet to come across a non traditional camber board that doesn't fall into one of those categories. So I give up


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## Roundabout136 (Aug 26, 2008)

I don't feel that loose feeling at all on the skate banana. Even when hauling ass on hard pack. 

Personally, I'll never ride a normally cambered board again.


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## phile00 (Jan 7, 2009)

BurtonAvenger said:


> People put way too much thought into a board these days when it can be broken down into "what do I need, what do I want, does it look cool'


Great point actually. I think that's the problem. I picked a board last year and was happy with my purchase, but I did wonder if I chose right. On a side note, I'm never worried about looks though. I don't care what it looks like if it has good performance.

If you have some time watch that video I posted. He argues that with too many choices, the opportunity cost is greater. People worry about it too much as a result, and now the burden is no longer the manufacturer and it's lack of choices or mediocre product. Now the burden is on the consumer because with a myriad of choices, they could have picked better. In effect, too many choices makes people less happy. 

And just to be clear, more choice is good. But there's a magic number somewhere


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## phile00 (Jan 7, 2009)

Extremo said:


> I think there are too many options out there as well...and I'll never get to try most of them. So tried and true camber is what I'll always ride. The few alt camber/alt base boards I've tried didn't compare to the response and stability of camber. I hate loose, spagetti, and drifty boards and have yet to come across a non traditional camber board that doesn't fall into one of those categories. So I give up


My Bataleon Goliath is basically a cambered board but with a plank in the middle. I think after all is said and done, camber is what I'll stick with after trying out some more stuff. 

I think the clearest distinctions that can be made is that pure rocker is great for jibbing/buttering and camber is better for everything else. I'm sure that there's the right blend out there that can TRULY do it all, but I'm not sure any company has found that perfect sweet spot yet. It's going to take a while for "the best" shape to be agreed upon.


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## Qball (Jun 22, 2010)

Have you tried out a rocker/camber or a camrock board yet? If not, you definitely should. I always rode camber until i got my Never Summer with RC, and now I won't ever go back to camber.


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## BurtonAvenger (Aug 14, 2007)

phile00 said:


> Great point actually. I think that's the problem. I picked a board last year and was happy with my purchase, but I did wonder if I chose right. On a side note, I'm never worried about looks though. I don't care what it looks like if it has good performance.
> 
> If you have some time watch that video I posted. He argues that with too many choices, the opportunity cost is greater. People worry about it too much as a result, and now the burden is no longer the manufacturer and it's lack of choices or mediocre product. Now the burden is on the consumer because with a myriad of choices, they could have picked better. In effect, too many choices makes people less happy.
> 
> And just to be clear, more choice is good. But there's a magic number somewhere


Oh I won't deny there's too many companies out there marketing the same shit differently. Snowboarding is going through a cycle right now like the mid 90's had where there were 10's of hundreds of companies popping up all the time. Hell I have a Blak Sheep that has micrognarrockcamber which is the same as NS's R.C. Tech, have a Lamar that has their anti-cam it's the same as k2's all-mountain, and then next to that is a Niche Aether with center reverse that looks just like my Arbor Coda which has the all-mountain system. 

Lots of overlap in the alt tech which is why I just broke down what is what on the site.


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## Shocktroop531 (Aug 3, 2010)

pure rocker is pretty much good for nothing except for riding deep pow.


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## BurtonAvenger (Aug 14, 2007)

Shocktroop531 said:


> pure rocker is pretty much good for nothing except for riding deep pow.


Pretty bold statement.


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## phile00 (Jan 7, 2009)

Qball said:


> Have you tried out a rocker/camber or a camrock board yet? If not, you definitely should. I always rode camber until i got my Never Summer with RC, and now I won't ever go back to camber.


At this point I've tried everything except flat and the camrock type shape. Flat interests me. Matt of fact I'm looking at rides tech this year which seems very similar to k2s... nevertheless I think ride might have something with their prorize/prorize hybrid shape.


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## JoeR (Oct 30, 2010)

phile00 said:


> At this point I've tried everything except flat and the camrock type shape. Flat interests me. Matt of fact I'm looking at rides tech this year which seems very similar to k2s... nevertheless I think ride might have something with their prorize/prorize hybrid shape.


My prediction is that regular ProRize will be gone next year, replaced by Hybrid ProRize. Right now there are two different versions of the DH2: the standard model (ProRize) and the limited edition DH2.4/DH2.5 (Hybrid ProRize). I can't see Ride maintaining both versions of this tech next year, especially after all their pros seem to have expressed a preference for the Hybrid version (that's why it was rushed into the limited editions). In fact, I think the Hybrid tech (slight camber in the middle) eventually will replace Ride's current tech (flat in the middle) across the line. The various rocker options at the tips probably will stay about the same, I'd guess.

I've ridden my DH2.4 a couple of times so far, and I have not had any adjustment period in coming from a regular camber board. None. No new turning techniques to implement, no washout-proneness or slippery feeling to combat. At the same time, however, the board feels quicker edge to edge, a bit easier to turn, and definitely easier to ride flat. I guess the slight rocker at the tips is doing its job.


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## BurtonAvenger (Aug 14, 2007)

If you think Ride rushes anything you have no idea. There's going to be some new models for 2012.


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## JoeR (Oct 30, 2010)

BurtonAvenger said:


> If you think Ride rushes anything you have no idea.


What I think is based on what Ride has said in discussions about this topic, e.g.: "The team picked it almost unanimously as the best this summer testing at Hood and the testing was so late we were only able to get put [sic] Hybrid ProRize on 3 models, the OMG, DH2.4, and DH2.5."


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## mbesp (Jan 30, 2009)

Hmm this thread has gotten me nervous about buying a new board. I was pretty set on picking up the capita ultrafear. Now maybe it isn't a good one haha.


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## wrathfuldeity (Oct 5, 2007)

With choices, there is this thing called "post decisional regret or questioning"...did I get the right board, could I have gotten a better deal, maybe I should have gotten...

But with you ya'll, it probably "psychotic paralysis" or "depressive ambivalence"...

Or....wait
















































































Quit being old ladies and get your balls out of your purse.


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## Extremo (Nov 6, 2008)

wrathfuldeity said:


> Quit being old ladies and get your balls out of your purse.


When you only have money for one board it's a big deal...you don't want to get a piece of shit. And personally of the alt base boards I've tried I would put them in the shit category.


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## lisevolution (Sep 20, 2007)

I just got my first day on my NS Legacy this past weekend and I'd say after the first 2 runs of adjusting to the alt camber from Rome Flag I was riding the thing exactly the same way I ride my flag...fast and aggressive. I actually felt more comfortable on edge with NS because of their sidecut and how well it holds an edge versus the Flag which sucks on ice eventhough it's a VT company who designed it. There is definitely more chatter in the Legacy than in the Flag but I expected that because I know the Legacy is both softer and has a shorter effective edge because of the Alt camber. The rocker also had a tendency to wander a bit when flat basing on a cat track but again I expected that because of the alt camber under foot. all it took was the slightest amount of being on edge to be just as stable on a cat track. After the first run of the day I was questioning whether I made the right decision, by the 4th I wasn't even thinking about it.


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## BurtonAvenger (Aug 14, 2007)

JoeR said:


> What I think is based on what Ride has said in discussions about this topic, e.g.: "The team picked it almost unanimously as the best this summer testing at Hood and the testing was so late we were only able to get put [sic] Hybrid ProRize on 3 models, the OMG, DH2.4, and DH2.5."


I'm friends with a bunch of the team guys and know the designers most everything that's in production now was created 2 years ago. They just rushed it because they felt the team could market it more.


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## little devil (Aug 18, 2009)

Extremo said:


> When you only have money for one board it's a big deal...you don't want to get a piece of shit. And personally of the alt base boards I've tried I would put them in the shit category.


Just curious, how many alt camber boards have you tried. Which ones?


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## JoeR (Oct 30, 2010)

BurtonAvenger said:


> I'm friends with a bunch of the team guys and know the designers most everything that's in production now was created 2 years ago. They just rushed it because they felt the team could market it more.


OK, so you agree they rushed it into production. Fine.

As for the marketing, from a customer's point of view, it looks rather muddled. 2010-11 is the very first season for regular ProRize, yet it was in the process of being replaced _in the same season_ even before the boards hit the slopes (at least in North America). Very odd, and not really confidence-inspiring. I like my DH2.4 and think it probably represents Ride's best technology going forward, but how they got to this point is not exactly a model of R&D. E.g., the 2010-11 Ride hardgoods catalog, released in the spring of 2010, describes the OMG as a regular ProRize board. When the OMG actually appeared in the summer/fall of 2010, it already had been changed to Hybrid ProRize. The ProRize OMG had a product lifespan of 0 years in North America!


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## phile00 (Jan 7, 2009)

BurtonAvenger said:


> I'm friends with a bunch of the team guys and know the designers most everything that's in production now was created 2 years ago. They just rushed it because they felt the team could market it more.


Interesting. So do you feel like their current base designs are not good? Also, what do the team guys tell you they actually like to ride? 

Do you think their 2012 stuff actually going to be innovative? Their designs are similar to k2, and having read all this, I feel like k2 probably has a better grasp on the flat/slight camber/rockered nose and tail tech. If you've ridden the boards, what's your take?


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## BurtonAvenger (Aug 14, 2007)

Eh I should have said that they "claimed" they rushed it into production. 

Everyone forgets that a catalog released for SIA doesn't necessarily mean that is what the final production product is going to be. Look at the K2 Believer for I think it was last year they switched it up right before mass production to what they were going to release for the next season. Hell the Forum Holy Moly got tweaked after the samples were released from 3mm's of rise under foot to 1mm. Big companies work 2 sometimes 3 years out, hell my buddy Chris is doing the 2013 Burton/Forum graphics right now. 

I haven't bothered to care about anyones 2012 stuff because until SIA most people will just be oogling screen shots from the Dewsh Tour and Gran Prix trying to figure out who is riding what. Fuck I saw Louie Vito today on the bus he wasn't riding his Celebrity Pro Model it was something I haven't seen before not even sure if it was an Omatic. 

Riders ride what they like when I'm out riding with them we don't talk tech we're more concerned with who can spray who or push the other person over. I try and check business at the chairlift and ride for myself.


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## Extremo (Nov 6, 2008)

little devil said:


> Just curious, how many alt camber boards have you tried. Which ones?


Bataleon Evil Twin with TBT, Nitro T0 with raised edges (I don't even know if they had a name for it), Omatic celbrity BS tech.

The only alt camber boards I've ridden were the skate banana, park pickle, and a capita horrorscope.

I'm eager to check out something like the flat kick that's reinforced with some carbon stringers and I'd like to try a camrock design. But honestly I'm pretty happy with reg camber...does everything I need it too. I think it's pretty dumb that companies are trying to make their alt camber boards feel more like camber...when they can just offer camber.


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## phile00 (Jan 7, 2009)

BurtonAvenger said:


> Riders ride what they like when I'm out riding with them we don't talk tech we're more concerned with who can spray who or push the other person over. I try and check business at the chairlift and ride for myself.


Business and tech aside, when you're out riding and you want to do a little bit of everything, what do you like to ride?



Extremo said:


> I think it's pretty dumb that companies are trying to make their alt camber boards feel more like camber...when they can just offer camber.


Well their overall goal there is to make a design that's "catch free" but still has pop. I'm with you though, I want to try the flat and camrock type stuff this year just to see what it's like, since I've pretty much tried the other designs.


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## BurtonAvenger (Aug 14, 2007)

phile00 said:


> Business and tech aside, when you're out riding and you want to do a little bit of everything, what do you like to ride?


Whatever my bindings are on at the time. Rider>board. I've jibbed my 67 swallow tail and hit jumps, I also rode 30 inches of pow on a 154 jibstick.


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## extra0 (Jan 16, 2010)

mark landvick rides his actual pro model...but these uber-riders are so experienced, they could shred on anything


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