# Whats wrong with a 0,0 stance anyway?



## Psi-Man (Aug 31, 2009)

I remember 0,0 was the setup for rentals back in the day...1990ish. I never felt comfortable with duck myself. It feels perfectly natural until I actually strap the bindings on. I have rode 21,0 now for quite a while and I doubt I will ever mess with binding angles again. 

I remember one time a buddy of mine rented a board and the bindings were setup pigeoned toed. Good thing I noticed it before he actually tried to strap these things on.


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## kaborkian (Feb 1, 2010)

It depends on how your legs move. For most people, it's more natural to have toes pointed out some when bending knees/squatting. For a very small few, it's ok/comfy to be at 0-0 and squat.

For me, 0-0 would destroy my knees...


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## trapper (Jan 15, 2013)

Not only does 0,0 shred your knees but it also is generally provided less stability than toes pointed outward. Think about what your general athletic stance is when you're playing pretty much any sport. Or squatting.


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## john doe (Nov 6, 2009)

There is absolutely zero wrong with running that stance as long as that is the way your legs bend. Your stance should be such that you can do a full squat with out any weird pressure or torquing of your knees, hips, and ankles.

My friend is pigeon toed. He rides at -3/3. Yes his toes are pointing toward each other. When he tried riding at 12/-12 it cut his ollie height in half. He's also the only adult I've seen W sit and he can't sit cross legged.


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## EastCoastChris (Feb 24, 2013)

Is 0, 0 not the proper form for a squat? Thats how I have always done them anyway. Its supposed to reduce low back strain or something. I dont really know the mechanics of it. Yeah Whenwas when I started riding and 0, 0 was the default. 
So its harder on the knees? It seems like the +12.+12 of a step in carver would be easier on the knees. I feel like riding duck makes it wierder to use your knees to enter a carve.
Anyone know the mechanics? I'm gonna ask my physiatrist.


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## CassMT (Mar 14, 2013)

i think we can get used to just about anything, even if some say a given stance is 'better', we are all different....experiment around imo

no one will ever convince me duck is a good carving stance, even though obviously many can do it...i like to be forward on both feet, and this has never stopped me riding fakie like a mfkr either, carving fakie too

whatever floats yer boat *imo*, it's up to you to find it


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## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

A buddy of mine rides 0/-15. Yes, neutral in the front and ducked in the back. :dunno:


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## trapper (Jan 15, 2013)

I have a question for you related to this Snowolf. I've read in numerous places that if you have your front foot angled too shallow, say less than 12 degrees, that it makes turning "unnecessarily difficult". This whole season I've been going back and forth between +12 and +9 on my front foot, +12 being the new angle I keep testing out, mainly because I read somewhere that anything less than +12 is not generally recommended.

I am comfortable enough riding either way, but there certainly is a noticeable difference between these two settings for me. The biggest thing I notice is that with the +12 setting I seem to have more difficulty initiating toeside turns on steeper hills and when I try to ride a heelside edge on flatter slopes for speed it tends to pull me into a heelside turn when I don't want to. Does this make any sense?

I've been tempted to go back to the +9 angle because these problems seem to lessen somewhat when I do but I was under the impression that no one really runs anything less than +12 on the front foot.

Also, if you have the time, can you comment specifically how a deeper angle (i.e. -6 vs -3) on your back foot affects your turning? I used to ride +9, -3 but went to -6 on the back foot a couple of times this year and can't really decide whether I like it or not.

Thanks in advance for any insight on this. All the things I've read done seem to address how angles affect your riding aside from the generic "three types of stance, apline, duck, etc." I have a hard time finding info on how stance angles affect turning and what not.


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## EastCoastChris (Feb 24, 2013)

I'm gonna try pidegon and see what it feels like. The 6 -6 duck was awkward to me but maybe I should have stuck to it more than 3 runs. .
I was just curious because the strong language surrounding the 0, 0 stance that I've seen/heard in multiple places was wierding me out. Combined with the death look I got from rental guy when asking for 0, 0 at Northstar I was just worried I was going to break something. Lol


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## EastCoastChris (Feb 24, 2013)

Oh and I 2nd trapper's question. Thats totally what I was curious about too!


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## CassMT (Mar 14, 2013)

linvillegorge said:


> A buddy of mine rides 0/-15. Yes, neutral in the front and ducked in the back. :dunno:


maybe he should be riding the other stance, goofy vs regular? idk...whatever works for him i suppose


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## glaucon (Jan 3, 2013)

I started riding in the 0/0 days, and used that for a while. I soon transitioned to pushing the front foot forward to about 12 and used 12/0 for around 10 years because I felt more stable that way and felt I had more control. But it always felt a little awkward as being somewhat of an unnatural stance.

A few years ago I pushed the back foot to -6 and really liked it. I started riding switch this season and pushed the back foot to -12. So my current setup is 15/-12 and that really feels ideal for me.

But regardless of natural feel, I do think there are meaningful advantages to an angled setup (not necessarily duck, but using any angles). From a physics standpoint, you have more stability if your feet are angled. By the same token, you have more control. This is because your feet are responsive to, and can act in, two dimensions instead of one.

Take a look at this highly technical computer-aided drawing:










Clearly, the structure on the left (analogous to a 0/0 stance) is more susceptible to instability from a transverse force as shown since each foot only acts in one dimension in the plane of the board (generally speaking, along the axis of the board width via toe and heel pressure). On the other hand, the structure on the right (analogous to a duck stance) utilizes its trapezoidal shape to allow each foot to operate in two dimensions (both the width and the length of the board) and accordingly has more stability (think truss versus rectangle in building a bridge). Outputs from the feet in this position are similarly advantageous since they act in two dimensions. This useful when thinking about shifting weight fore and aft.

Of course this concept isn't exclusive to the duck stance. The idea is that stability increases with binding angle, wherever that angle is. Comfort, natural feel, and intended purpose are all other factors that play into how you'd set up your bindings.


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## CassMT (Mar 14, 2013)

^^^ like

i ride 23/12, which i got used to way back cuz my sorels hung too far over, lol (can i get a....?)...but i have the highbacks pivoted so they are parallel to the edge...i can go on and on but it wont mean shyt to anyone else, haha


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## NWBoarder (Jan 10, 2010)

When I learned to ride in the 90's 0,0 was pretty norm. I couldn't ride it though because I had way too much overhang at those angles. I ended up learning with a forward stance. Once i got my first wide board, I rode with a positive front foot, and 0 on the back. Now I ride 9,-9 and that's what's comfortable for me. When I first got back into boarding after a major hiatus I tired out 15,-15 but that was awkward and uncomfortable. Then I tried 12,-12 and that was a little better, but still not great. Then I went down to 9,-9 and that was the money spot for me. The point here is that there is no "correct" angle for snowboarding. The only "correct" angle, is the one that you are comfortable with.


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## AcroPhile (Dec 3, 2010)

So why is the rental shop refusing to mount his bidings at 0,0 ? :dunno:


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## hvalley76 (Oct 17, 2007)

I would just ask will you get toe drag at 0-0?
Mine are ducked at 12 each. I've never tried it, but I think my toes would hang over too far at 0.


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## EastCoastChris (Feb 24, 2013)

AcroPhile said:


> So why is the rental shop refusing to mount his bidings at 0,0 ? :dunno:


I'm actually female, 5'5" with a size 7.5 boot. No toe drag issues for me. 

But yeah it was really wierd in general. This was my first trip to Northstar and 
my first time on a board since like 2002. I rode a ton between 92 and 02. I told the guy that. A d I also asked for a board on the 148 range (I used to ride a 152, the first gen Rossi Recycler all mountain.) He a) insisted that I had to ride a soft, flat 138. and b.) That I couldnt ride with a 0,0 stance. I even strapped in and was like..whoa this feels wierd. I told him and he said 6,-6 is what we have to give beginners. So they was he was talking I thought it was some sort of safety issue. Looking back I think he was too lazy to switch the board out and/or adjust the stance. I was one of 3 people in there since I was out front at 7:30 waiting for them to open.


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## boarderaholic (Aug 13, 2007)

EastCoastChris said:


> Is 0, 0 not the proper form for a squat? Thats how I have always done them anyway. Its supposed to reduce low back strain or something. I dont really know the mechanics of it. Yeah Whenwas when I started riding and 0, 0 was the default.
> So its harder on the knees? It seems like the +12.+12 of a step in carver would be easier on the knees. I feel like riding duck makes it wierder to use your knees to enter a carve.
> Anyone know the mechanics? I'm gonna ask my physiatrist.


The thing my trainers stresses about squats is not to have the knee's go over the toes. I have a tendency to rotate my knee's out a little bit when I do them, and I have noticed that if I don't, it HURTS. 

I myself really like an obnoxious amount of duck when I snowboard since I notice my legs really like to rotate out. 

As not common as 0,0 is, at the end of the day, you have to do what feels good to you.


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## skunkworks_ (Jan 2, 2013)

With squats, trainers normally recommend toes slightly out in a comfortable, natural position. This is because the goal of squatting is to be able to get good depth (hip crease parallel to the knees) while keeping the knees tracking in a safe, stable position (i.e. not caving inward, thigh parallel to or even outside of your feet).

Having your knees go "over" your toes (i.e. past your toes) is natural, especially if you're front squatting where the knees are in a much more forward position by necessity. The important part is to keep your weight on your heels so that they don't lift. Squatting from your toes is a recipe for disaster.

Again, the goal is to have flexibility for maximal depth and range of motion while also keeping the knees in a safe position. Some people have the ability to achieve this with the toes pointed straight forward (i.e. 0/0). This requires very good ankle flexibility, and even then, for many people it's much more natural for their toes to be pointed out a bit.


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## KIRKRIDER (Mar 18, 2008)

I think you should change your angles accordingly to the snow conditions and what you are going to ride, as you do with your boards. On a powder day I know I will be leaning back, so I want a comfortable angle on my back knee, between 9 and 12 so I can bend my knee correctly and use my blackleg muscle. A 0 angle would transfer all the weight and strain on the side of the knee and on my ankle. Not a good posture.
On a hard pack carving day I like 21 - 12/18. This way I can carve low both sides, using a totally different posture from powder, and leaning on my front foot. If instead I want to jump and try the park I would try a duck stance where I can switch easy, and lower my COG rapidly, be more agile and mobile.


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## ETM (Aug 11, 2009)

KIRKRIDER said:


> I think you should change your angles accordingly to the snow conditions and what you are going to ride, as you do with your boards. On a powder day I know I will be leaning back, so I want a comfortable angle on my back knee, between 9 and 12 so I can bend my knee correctly and use my blackleg muscle. A 0 angle would transfer all the weight and strain on the side of the knee and on my ankle. Not a good posture.
> On a hard pack carving day I like 21 - 12/18. This way I can carve low both sides, using a totally different posture from powder, and leaning on my front foot. If instead I want to jump and try the park I would try a duck stance where I can switch easy, and lower my COG rapidly, be more agile and mobile.


There is definately some merit in that theory. I find my -18 +15 stance rides fine in powder but I ride boards that dont require leaning back


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## timmytard (Mar 19, 2009)

Back in the day 0/0 seamed to be the only way bindings went, that or @ a 45 degree angle.

To me, it seems like, if your bindings are set @ 0/0? That's not natural, you are pigeon toeing yourself.:dizzy:
Especially the wider you get:blink: 

I honestly couldn't tell you what mine are set @? They're different on every setup, but not set to any specific #.

On my Heritage, I have it ducked with the front on more of an angle. It's set back & I ride it forward 70% of the time.

On the 3800, the nose is twice as long as the tail. It's a powder slaying monster & for the most part I ride it forward, with maybe 20% of the time riding out of shit switch. Back leg is between -1,0,+1 degrees & the front a little more forward than normal.

The Carbon Credit is twinned & it's set almost twinned, with my front foot a few degrees more forward.
Maybe 40% of the time riding switch.

Powder days they get slammed to the back, no matter what board it is.:eusa_clap:



TT


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## bamfb2 (Mar 16, 2011)

linvillegorge said:


> A buddy of mine rides 0/-15. Yes, neutral in the front and ducked in the back. :dunno:


He must be nasty switch.


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## KIRKRIDER (Mar 18, 2008)

ETM said:


> There is definately some merit in that theory. I find my -18 +15 stance rides fine in powder but I ride boards that dont require leaning back




EDIT!!!
Wait, you ride front -18 back +15? How's that possible? Unless you meant switch obviously 



Most of the leaning back is done of course on flats, now that I have a pow board I lean less, but still being able to use your knee fully helps. Of course that's just my experience on my boards, and mostly in one place.ill love to hear your opinion. And I'll love to ride Japan one day!


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## bamfb2 (Mar 16, 2011)

boarderaholic said:


> The thing my trainers stresses about squats is not to have the knee's go over the toes. I have a tendency to rotate my knee's out a little bit when I do them, and I have noticed that if I don't, it HURTS.
> 
> I myself really like an obnoxious amount of duck when I snowboard since I notice my legs really like to rotate out.



And if you look at most Olympic power squatters, they are all ducked out. Not that power squatting necessarily translates.

This guy here was using a bad stance. Don't use that one for your snowboard.


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## spino (Jan 8, 2013)

ETM said:


> There is definately some merit in that theory. I find my -18 +15 stance rides fine in powder but I ride boards that dont require leaning back


then i guess my coach was not so wrong, after all...


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## Deacon (Mar 2, 2013)

For myself, after reading all I've read on this forum, I figured out the 15,-15 is damn near perfect for me. Just do an unwiegted deep knee bend, look down and see what your feet look like. That's gonna be a natural angle for you. Doing that eliminated all the pain I was having in my rear pinky toe.... Due to being pinched by the binding. If you do that deep knee bend and you see your feet are at 0,0 then that's your normal.


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## CassMT (Mar 14, 2013)

just can't buy the weightlifter analogy, in that you are doing a static activity, facing forward, it would fit if we were talking about power side-slipping the hill on the heel, otherwise....

still comes down to preference, type of riding and pain-free angle for the individual...no theories one way or the other will apply* imo*

that said, there is no doubt that snowboarding has 'progressed' with the adoption of the wider duck stance, at least in some areas...so, for fun,after 25+ years of 23/12-ish, when i go up this afternoon i'm gonna try something like a 10/-10 and see how it feels, guessing it will be great for fakie at least!


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## jjz (Feb 14, 2012)

boarderaholic said:


> The thing my trainers stresses about squats is not to have the knee's go over the toes. I have a tendency to rotate my knee's out a little bit when I do them, and I have noticed that if I don't, it HURTS.
> 
> I myself really like an obnoxious amount of duck when I snowboard since I notice my legs really like to rotate out.
> 
> As not common as 0,0 is, at the end of the day, you have to do what feels good to you.


Your trainer is wrong, at least mostly wrong. It does reduce knee torque, but its not the proper way to squat, it just transfers the stress to your Hips and back and prevents your quads from adequate stimulation.
See this: Squat Analysis

In terms of stance, whatever is comfortable imo, though biomechanically one thing to keep in mind is that your knees will be most comfortable pointing in the direction of your toes.


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## herjazz (Feb 20, 2013)

CassMT said:


> so, for fun,after 25+ years of 23/12-ish, when i go up this afternoon i'm gonna try something like a 10/-10 and see how it feels, guessing it will be great for fakie at least!


you know, i was experimenting with many different things last weekend (got a new board / binding setup) and stance angle and width was one of them... i've been riding +24/+12 for over 10 years. because back then, when i tried anything else other than that, i felt like i didn't have as much control or it didn't feel right to me so i "set it and forget it" and never touched it since...

i tried duck, 0's, everything in between... surprising thing was, none of these adjustments made that drastic difference!!! @[email protected] :dunno: totally unexpected. but i'm guessing i'm adjusting my riding to make up for whatever the effect the difference makes. it truly was strange... only time where i noticed the biggest difference was deep carving. i can't crouch down as low as i used to (versus the both forward +angles) to wind up for the carves.

part of it could be the "softer" / rocker hybrid board. i set it at around +12/-5 ish and rode the rest of the day like that and it felt fine; hit the park later in the day for jumps, boxes, pipe... felt fine. so there you go: +24/+12 to +12/-5... with the burton EST setup it's super easy to just change things up every run, and i really like my new board (custom flying v 148), very responsible and flexible.. (and shorter; i'm going from 153 or 156 to 148!). (carves fine on ice/groomers -- some people say hybrid / flying v sucks on ice but i disagree-- it's just not as fast as a custom x, but i love its versatility)...


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## bamfb2 (Mar 16, 2011)

So if I'm having some trouble with the inside of my downhill knee (meniscus), what sort of angle setup would help the most?

I've always ridden 15/-15. I'm thinking off switching to 12/-12, as it seems this could take some pressure off it certain situations. No real knowledge here though.


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## john doe (Nov 6, 2009)

bamfb2 said:


> So if I'm having some trouble with the inside of my downhill knee (meniscus), what sort of angle setup would help the most?
> 
> I've always ridden 15/-15. I'm thinking off switching to 12/-12, as it seems this could take some pressure off it certain situations. No real knowledge here though.


With that isolated of a problem there is a chance the problem is with your riding technique and not your stance. BUT, don't be afraid to mess with your stance to try and help the issue. Also, stance angle and stance width effect each other so play with the width as well and give each setting at least an hour of time if not a full day before you decide if it is better.

When it come to finding a stance these are the instructions I give to all newbs. Stand with your eyes closed and do full deep squats. I'm talking sloppy squats, not perfect form weight lifting squats. As you do them move your feet around until it feels best through the whole range of motion. Having your eyes closed prevents the influence of any preconceived notion of what a stance should be.


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## bamfb2 (Mar 16, 2011)

john doe said:


> With that isolated of a problem there is a chance the problem is with your riding technique and not your stance. BUT, don't be afraid to mess with your stance to try and help the issue. Also, stance angle and stance width effect each other so play with the width as well and give each setting at least an hour of time if not a full day before you decide if it is better.
> 
> When it come to finding a stance these are the instructions I give to all newbs. Stand with your eyes closed and do full deep squats. I'm talking sloppy squats, not perfect form weight lifting squats. As you do them move your feet around until it feels best through the whole range of motion. Having your eyes closed prevents the influence of any preconceived notion of what a stance should be.



Thanks for the reply. I will try out the eyes closed suggestion and see what I come up with. I didn't even consider width, so that is something to think about as well.

What I left out is that I hurt the knee in an awkward fall, and then subsequently tweaked it again in another sport. It is now nagging. My riding technique is pretty solid. I ride pretty much carbon copy both ways, and my other knee is good as gold.


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## CassMT (Mar 14, 2013)

herjazz said:


> you know, i was experimenting with many different things last weekend (got a new board / binding setup) and stance angle and width was one of them... i've been riding +24/+12 for over 10 years. because back then, when i tried anything else other than that, i felt like i didn't have as much control or it didn't feel right to me so i "set it and forget it" and never touched it since...
> 
> i tried duck, 0's, everything in between... surprising thing was, none of these adjustments made that drastic difference!!! @[email protected] :dunno: totally unexpected. but i'm guessing i'm adjusting my riding to make up for whatever the effect the difference makes. it truly was strange... only time where i noticed the biggest difference was deep carving. i can't crouch down as low as i used to (versus the both forward +angles) to wind up for the carves.
> 
> part of it could be the "softer" / rocker hybrid board. i set it at around +12/-5 ish and rode the rest of the day like that and it felt fine; hit the park later in the day for jumps, boxes, pipe... felt fine. so there you go: +24/+12 to +12/-5... with the burton EST setup it's super easy to just change things up every run, and i really like my new board (custom flying v 148), very responsible and flexible.. (and shorter; i'm going from 153 or 156 to 148!). (carves fine on ice/groomers -- some people say hybrid / flying v sucks on ice but i disagree-- it's just not as fast as a custom x, but i love its versatility)...


interesting, thanks....got sidetracked yesterday and didnt go up, today is test day, got it at 12/-12 and a scewdriver with me....

for me it will mean not only a new knee position, but a total upper body stance change too, i normally ride chest square to board, not parallel, weight 70/30 to the front, often A-framed knees...essentially: *old school*, lol...this should be fun!


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## NWBoarder (Jan 10, 2010)

bamfb2 said:


> So if I'm having some trouble with the inside of my downhill knee (meniscus), what sort of angle setup would help the most?
> 
> I've always ridden 15/-15. I'm thinking off switching to 12/-12, as it seems this could take some pressure off it certain situations. No real knowledge here though.


Sounds like you should ty out some bindings with canting. I know once I did, it cleared up the nagging knee pains I would get after a full day of riding. I was skeptical about how well the canting would actually work, but after using it, I'll never own another binding without it. I can ride hard for 12 hours and still walk away pain free. I couldn't do that before.


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## bamfb2 (Mar 16, 2011)

NWBoarder said:


> Sounds like you should ty out some bindings with canting. I know once I did, it cleared up the nagging knee pains I would get after a full day of riding. I was skeptical about how well the canting would actually work, but after using it, I'll never own another binding without it. I can ride hard for 12 hours and still walk away pain free. I couldn't do that before.


Sweet, will do. I'm in the market for new bindo's next season anyway. I wanted to get some Now IPOs....but it doesn't look like they offer cant. Shite.


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## NWBoarder (Jan 10, 2010)

bamfb2 said:


> Sweet, will do. I'm in the market for new bindo's next season anyway. I wanted to get some Now IPOs....but it doesn't look like they offer cant. Shite.


FWIW, I've heard that the NOW IPO's are one of the few bindings where the cant is not missed. Apparently the combo of the kingpin system and the ultra cush footbed make them gentle on the knees.


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## bamfb2 (Mar 16, 2011)

NWBoarder said:


> FWIW, I've heard that the NOW IPO's are one of the few bindings where the cant is not missed. Apparently the combo of the kingpin system and the ultra cush footbed make them gentle on the knees.


Most excellent news! Thanks NWB.


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## Banjo (Jan 29, 2013)

NOW is in their first year of production with their bindings...I have heard they are awesome, BUT you have got to assume that in the next year or two, they will make some major adjustments due to mass feedback that will improve them even more.

I really wanted to get my hands on a set, but im going to wait at least another year in hopes that they work out a few kinks!


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## bamfb2 (Mar 16, 2011)

Banjo said:


> NOW is in their first year of production with their bindings...I have heard they are awesome, BUT you have got to assume that in the next year or two, they will make some major adjustments due to mass feedback that will improve them even more.
> 
> I really wanted to get my hands on a set, but im going to wait at least another year in hopes that they work out a few kinks!


Yah, I'll go for next year's model. Hopefully get a little discount during preseason. Those things ain't cheap.


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## EastCoastChris (Feb 24, 2013)

john doe said:


> With that isolated of a problem there is a chance the problem is with your riding technique and not your stance. BUT, don't be afraid to mess with your stance to try and help the issue. Also, stance angle and stance width effect each other so play with the width as well and give each setting at least an hour of time if not a full day before you decide if it is better.


UPDATE! I rode my own gear today....and after checking some natural squat form, I did go out and try a gentle duck/pidgeon and really liked it. I spent most of the day at 6,-3 
and it felt really good. I think, as you suggest here, my real problem was width. After checking my squat stance...it seemed narrow for riding. So I used the "rules o' thumb" I knew. I measured my knee to foot. That ended up being the first holes in the 2x4 on each side of the board. My hips fit between the bindings with room after I mounted them (2nd rule o thumb.) So I tried it out. 

Jackpot. No knee pain. No quad tightness or fatigue. I dont remember having a narrow stance. But I do have short legs so it makes sense. 

I would second john doe's advice for anyone having knee, calf or other leg problems from their stance. Worked like a charm for me! Muchas gracias bro for helping out. And everyone else who talked through the stance thing too. You guys really helped me have a killer day today!


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## Mooz (Aug 14, 2007)

boarderaholic said:


> The thing my trainers stresses about squats is not to have the knee's go over the toes. I have a tendency to rotate my knee's out a little bit when I do them, and I have noticed that if I don't, it HURTS.


Any trainer who says not to let your knees go over the toes needs to be fired and beaten. Preferably with fire. And you're knees should rotate out in a proper squat. That's how you drive out of the bottom of the squat. 

Some squat knowledge


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