# 2013 Cartel's! Can't be Centered?!!



## Extremo (Nov 6, 2008)

I think this is common with unibody bindings. Probably why they created the EST system. The reason I got rid of my Cartels was because I couldn't center the boots without the discs turned sideways, which obviously limits stance options to what ever the inserts fall at. I had the same problem with my Flux. 

Now it appears that the smaller re:flex disc limits the adjustment range even more so. 

I'm not sure why they don't spend more time on their disc design. Even ride includes multiple offset discs to rectify this issue.


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## Sick-Pow (May 5, 2008)

trippy, never heard of that. I have cartels from 2008, look centered to me.


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## Extremo (Nov 6, 2008)

It's the new reflex disks. See Dreampow's thread.


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## Supra (Jan 11, 2012)

to the OP, can you put up pics of the un-centered bindings (topview please).
I've never come across this. Large bindings overhanging on a wide board!


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## Joe77 (Feb 7, 2013)

Same issue i had with my medium Custom too. I turned the disc 90 degrees and forward backward adjustment was either toe overhang or heel overhang with my 10" boots.


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## kaborkian (Feb 1, 2010)

Had the same problem with Customs, they were a Large with size 10 boots. You need mediums.


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## dubstatic (Jan 4, 2013)

same issues with my size 10.5 32 boots. I have 2009 burtons so I have the old disc so I can just make the bindings work on my capita. I tried putting my boot in a med burton binding and everything just seemed to snug.


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## chomps1211 (Mar 30, 2011)

*Binding Pic's / Uncentered*



Supra said:


> to the OP, can you put up pics of the un-centered bindings (topview please).
> I've never come across this. Large bindings overhanging on a wide board!


Here's the disk set up. In Most toe forward position!

















Here's all the heel overhang that position gives me:
















Almost no toe overhang:
















sorry about upside down pics,.. I edited them but iPhone apparently embeds the orientation regardless!!!


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## chomps1211 (Mar 30, 2011)

Now that CAN'T be right can it? My 2010/11 Cartels are a tiny bit heel heavy when centerd using the same (relative) bolt holes. This is an unridable situation for this board! It's already a bit hard to initiate toeside turns with it being a wide board as is. But with NO toe side Leverage??? this sucks, and I don't know why the Cartel's I demo'd didn't feel this bad on this board!!

I noticed how different, bad/squirelly this setup felt the very first time I rode it, but I thought I just had to dial in my hi-backs & angles! This set up isn't ridable as it is!


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## trapper (Jan 15, 2013)

God it almost does look like those bindings are too big for your boot, but I would imagine you're right in that a medium wouldn't work on a wide board. Are you sure the ones you demo'd were larges?


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## chomps1211 (Mar 30, 2011)

trapper said:


> God it almost does look like those bindings are too big for your boot, but I would imagine you're right in that a medium wouldn't work on a wide board. Are you sure the ones you demo'd were larges?


I was told they were, we had to adjust the straps several times to keep them from bottoming out when tightening, so yeah! Pretty sure! And I didn't notice ANY ride performance issues! Board didn't feel squirrelly or radically different when riding. 

I Just noticed that the bindings were way more comfortable than my old Cartels and actually, my boots didn't lift/rise up & ride the outside edge of the bindings base whenever I tried to Butter! (...my old Cartels let my boot lift in the bindings and bottom of boot was on outside edge of base no matter how tight I strapped in!) With the New Cartel's, My boots fit better in the bindings, but the bindings apparently don't fit my board??? Cannot center them to even out overhang! 

Does any of that make sense?? :dunno:

Later edit:
Now,.. I have NO idea what disk plates were used for the bindings I demo'd on my Arbor! The Cartels I rode on the Burton boards I demo'd were the EST (...or channel?) Not sure what was used for mounting them on my Arbor!
Oh yes, Btw my Old 2010/11 Cartel's are Large!!! They work just fine with this board & boots! (..just not as comfortable!)


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## trapper (Jan 15, 2013)

What's weird is that in looking at those pics I'm not sure different discs would even help your situation much. That is to say those heelside edge screws don't look like they could come back any further with any kind of disc because you'd be getting too close to the seam where the disc meets the base plate. It's odd. Hopefully Burton Bindings will see this thread and chime in.


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## Extremo (Nov 6, 2008)

Chomps, Why are you on a wide board? 32 have a relatively small outsole so you should probably be on a regular board with medium bindings. I just think the boots are too short for your set up.


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## chomps1211 (Mar 30, 2011)

Extremo said:


> Chomps, Why are you on a wide board? 32 have a relatively small outsole so you should probably be on a regular board with medium bindings. I just think the boots are too short for your set up.


Cuz after my second day on a rental snowboard, I ran out & bought my own gear,.. AND I took the advice of the REI salespeople! :RantExplode: (...to be fair to them, I started out with {_and ultimately returned 2-3 pair,.._} of size 11's or even 11.5 boots cuz my feet are "freakin' Wide"!) 10.5 EEE streets & work boots!

I have since learned I *don't* NEED, never _did_ need a Wide board! But,.. it's mine now. It's a _GREAT_ board & I actually learned to ride pretty damn well on it!  

Just can't figure out why the bindings I demo'd didn't give me the trouble (...ride performance problems) that the ones I purchased have!!! :dunno: :icon_scratch:


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## bseracka (Nov 14, 2011)

Any chance they had you on a standard disc/binding and not the re:flex disc/binding?


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## chomps1211 (Mar 30, 2011)

bseracka said:


> Any chance they had you on a standard disc/binding and not the re:flex disc/binding?


I only know that the Demo Cartels were 2012/13's. Do they make these in a Non Reflex binding? Is there a version of these 12/13 Cartels without the reflex bindings?

Honestly,.. I don't remember the disk's on the Demo's having these same large teeth on the disk & binding plate for locking in the angles! But my recollection is unreliable on that as I wasn't really paying attention to those kinds of things!


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## crash77 (Jan 24, 2011)

chomps1211 said:


> I only know that the Demo Cartels were 2012/13's. Do they make these in a Non Reflex binding? Is there a version of these 12/13 Cartels without the reflex bindings?
> 
> Honestly,.. I don't remember the disk's on the Demo's having these same large teeth on the disk & binding plate for locking in the angles! But my recollection is unreliable on that as I wasn't really paying attention to those kinds of things!


Nope. 2012/2013 cartels only come in est and reflex versions.


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## Supra (Jan 11, 2012)

chomps1211 said:


> Now that CAN'T be right can it? My 2010/11 Cartels are a tiny bit heel heavy when centerd using the same (relative) bolt holes. This is an unridable situation for this board! It's already a bit hard to initiate toeside turns with it being a wide board as is. But with NO toe side Leverage??? this sucks, and I don't know why the Cartel's I demo'd didn't feel this bad on this board!!
> 
> I noticed how different, bad/squirelly this setup felt the very first time I rode it, but I thought I just had to dial in my hi-backs & angles! This set up isn't ridable as it is!


Your toe ramps are a touch too far out. You want them to follow the curve of the boot, so your toes will actually stick out further than the ramp.

You know, I really think you're overthinking it. The board is not unrideable! Difficulty in initiating toeside turns is from bad technique. Don't blame the equipment. I've had my bindings like that before on some boards and never noticed it.


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## chomps1211 (Mar 30, 2011)

Supra said:


> Your toe ramps are a touch too far out. You want them to follow the curve of the boot, so your toes will actually stick out further than the ramp.
> 
> You know, I really think you're overthinking it. The board is not unrideable! Difficulty in initiating toeside turns is from bad technique. Don't blame the equipment. I've had my bindings like that before on some boards and never noticed it.


Not trying to dis you, but you aren't being serious, are you? With ALL heel overhang, it rides for shit!! Technique or no! I was overstating "Unridable" for effect, but no way Im leaving it set up like this to ride. Might as well b on a POS rental if Im gonna do that, not an awesome $500 stick!


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## NWBoarder (Jan 10, 2010)

Maybe I'm missing something here, but from the looks of the pictures, you need to suck in your heel cups and re-position the bindings to fit centered. Again, I could be way off base, but from the pics, that's what it looks like to me.


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## Efilnikufesin (Oct 8, 2011)

There has to be some way to push that heelcup forward.


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## Extremo (Nov 6, 2008)

Efilnikufesin said:


> There has to be some way to push that heelcup forward.


The heel cup isn't adjustable. Burton bindings are unibody's.


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## phony_stark (Jul 2, 2011)

I can't all the way see, but it looks like your toe ramps aren't all the way back (I read you said that they are) can you confirm this?


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## jdang307 (Feb 6, 2011)

Bindings are way too big. I understand they changed things for 2013, but on the 2012s I fit a 7.5 boot into a medium binding (their chart says too small but it fit well) and got it centered.

Bindings too big. Board too wide. You mentioned REI? Return that shit. With the binding that big you're never going to get it centered. For christs sake your boot doesn't even reach the end of the toe ramp.

Get a normal width board, a medium binding and then see how it centers.

With the binding so large, and the inability to move the heel cup forward, you have a boot that starts way too far back to get centered. I don't even think the old style cartels would work on centering that boot.


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## phony_stark (Jul 2, 2011)

Yeah I think B's bindings go to a size 11 in a medium and then start at size 1,000 or something in a large.


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## NWBoarder (Jan 10, 2010)

Does the high back move in on the heel cup? I'm pretty sure that my old cartels had a way to shorten the heel length. You would think the newer versions would have even better adjustability, not worse. But I could just be remembering them wrong as well, and I don't have them around anymore to look. :dunno: 

Sent from Verticalsports.com Free App


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## dreampow (Sep 26, 2011)

Contact Burton or the shop where you bought them, you will need mediums just like me. If you can get them to send you some medium bindings see if you can hang onto the large toe caps.

The medium binding will automatically have your binding more centered because the base plate is significantly shorter.

Your boots will fit snugly but well. I am really enjoying my mediums but I have the large toe caps on there as the medium toe caps didn't work (hurt my toes).

As I said in my thread lots of people are having this issue and I think Burton should stress the need to try on bindings for people in the middle of the two sizes. They can put a note on their size charts and tell their reps and shops so people have a heads up. 

It seems to be mostly people who already own Burton bindings who are getting caught out because if your old burton bindings fit with the same boots/ board who would think the new ones wouldn't.

Its the reflex feature that forced them to reduce the adjustability. It is a good feature though and I noticed more pop.


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## hktrdr (Apr 3, 2012)

Definitely medium size bindings.

Also, a regular width board - but sounds like that ship has sailed...


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## trapper (Jan 15, 2013)

dreampow said:


> Contact Burton or the shop where you bought them, you will need mediums just like me. If you can get them to send you some medium bindings see if you can hang onto the large toe caps.


Chomps, let me know if you go this route but for some reason can't keep the large capstrap. I have a brand new set of the gettagrip capstraps that I may be willing to part with. I have them only as a backup so I don't necessarily need them. Plus we wouldn't have to fuck with shipping since I'm in Lansing. Just a thought in the event that you can't keep yours.


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## chomps1211 (Mar 30, 2011)

*My Old 2010/11 Large Cartel's*

Here's how my Old Cartels center up. Same board, same boots!
(...again, I apologize for the orientation! I've tried & failed to fix it!) :dunno:










Here's the Toe;











...and the Heel!









Definitely "Less" adjustability in the New 12/13 Cartels!!! I'll return them to REI & see if a Mediium size will center better! 
Although, as I mentioned earlier,.. I don't think I'll like the way it rides with Med. bindings! I think they will be too small for the wide board!
Shit!! I really wanted those bindings on my Arbor! They're more comfortable than my Old Cartels, and I liked the way the new straps Held my boot in the bindings! No more slipping or riding up the edge of the binding whenever I Butter!!

(...anybody want to buy a slightly used Arbor Roundhouse 163W?)


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## kaborkian (Feb 1, 2010)

Binding size, assuming same bunding and they fit your boots and can center on the board, won't affect ride. What mattersmis where your toe and heel end up relative to the edges of the board. Lean energy is transferred to the board regardless of the binding size.

Good luck!


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## Efilnikufesin (Oct 8, 2011)

If you push the highback more forward with the adjustment screws, that might work for you, provided the forward lean adjuster still hits the heelcup.


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## dubstatic (Jan 4, 2013)

even with your old cartels to me it looks like your heel still sticks further. I have the dame issue with my large burtons too. There almost centered but my heel sticks out like 1/4 more but I cant tell when riding.


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## chomps1211 (Mar 30, 2011)

dubstatic said:


> even with your old cartels to me it looks like your heel still sticks further. I have the dame issue with my large burtons too. There almost centered but my heel sticks out like 1/4 more but I cant tell when riding.


Yeah, it does. I have maybe 1/4 - 1/2 inch more heel over than toe! This hasn't been _too_ big an issue! Although, until I got good at riding the thing,.. :dunno: Probably explains why when I was learning, my "Go Too" side was always my Heelside!! Going toe side seemed a little sketchy early in my riding! (I've since adapted!)  

I ordered the Med. Cartels from REI. (...in store's sold out!) Unfortunately, they will not get here before I leave for Boyne Highlands next week. I even if they _do_ fix the centering issue, I still want to spend some time riding them to make sure a Med. binding like that is going to work on my wide board! I'm still worried that there won't be enough leverage for my turns to feel dialed in! I can ride that board pretty well with my Old Cartels! We're running out of ride time here in MI for me to make sure they'll work!! 

(BTW,.. I tried putting them on my NS Proto, and they wouldn't center the boot on that reg width board either!)

I have a PM in to Burton Bindings to aks about those large straps for the Med. bindings. Haven't heard back yet! Thanks for the replies guys!


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## Supra (Jan 11, 2012)

dude, everyone favours their heelside when learning. It's a natural reaction, it's not because of binding overhang.

If you want large straps for your bindings, call rider services instead of trying to go directly to the B bindings product manager. It will be faster.


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## Someoldguy (Jun 21, 2011)

chomps1211 said:


> I ordered the Med. Cartels from REI. (...in store's sold out!) Unfortunately, they will not get here before I leave for Boyne Highlands next week.


Not sure if it helps, but I had issues with size large Cartel reflex bindings on an Arbor Wasteland last season and some overhang I couldn't get rid of after adjusting them. Returned the bindings for size medium and it was a lot better. Size 10 burton Ambush boots here.

Good luck.


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## Treegreen (Mar 16, 2012)

Supra said:


> dude, everyone favours their heelside when learning. It's a natural reaction, it's not because of binding overhang.


That isn't necessarily true. I've favored my toe-side since day one when riding regular. It baffled my instructor to no end. On the other hand, I highly favor my heelside when riding switch, so there you go.

To Chomps' issue I've seen similar problems with some of the mini-disc bindings like the older Nitros.


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## Supra (Jan 11, 2012)

It baffled your instructors because you are an exception to the norm


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## Nivek (Jan 24, 2008)

This is simple. Your board is too wide and your bindings are too big.

A 26.8 waist needs at the very least a 12. You're a size and a half too small for that board in reality. And you have almost no toe overhang in that binding. Mediums are a better fit.


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## hktrdr (Apr 3, 2012)

hktrdr said:


> Definitely medium size bindings.
> 
> Also, a regular width board - but sounds like that ship has sailed...





Nivek said:


> This is simple. Your board is too wide and your bindings are too big.
> 
> A 26.8 waist needs at the very least a 12. You're a size and a half too small for that board in reality. And you have almost no toe overhang in that binding. Mediums are a better fit.


Thank you. That is is the basic problem and no messing around with the bindings is going to address this fundamental issue.


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## chomps1211 (Mar 30, 2011)

Supra said:


> dude, everyone favours their heelside when learning. It's a natural reaction, it's not because of binding overhang.





Treegreen said:


> That isn't necessarily true. I've favored my toe-side since day one when riding regular. It baffled my instructor to no end. On the other hand, I highly favor my heelside when riding switch, so there you go.


Treegreen thanks, I didn't want to publicly disagree with Supra again as I wasn't trying to disrespect or get into a pissing contest with anybody here,.. but I'm glad you posted that. I've run across several people who didn't seem to be able to "get it" going heel side. They just couldn't seem to stay off their ass, but when I mentioned to them to try things like side slipping, garlands, etc. toe side?? _THAT_ they seemed to manage! 

While "Heel Side" might be the more common comfort zone for most people when starting out,.. I firmly believe that we _ALL_ have a "Go To" side & for some,.. that's _Toe side_!

...as for the bindings, the Med. Cartels should arrive today! It's going to get shitty warm around here for the weekend so I'm not sure if I'll get a chance to try them on the Arbor this week! Have to wait & see how they work out on a wide board! (BTW, put my old L Cartels back on the Arbor & managed to hit a personal best speed record last weekend!)


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## dubstatic (Jan 4, 2013)

did you try out the mediums yet?


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## surfinsnow (Feb 4, 2010)

To the posters who blamed this situation on REI a while back...I don't think that's entirely fair. I have no interest (other than my membership with them), but to say the lesson learned is to never the trust the guy at the board shop, when your "board shop" is REI...I think that's obviously a lesson poorly learned. REI is fine if you done your research beforehand, but they're a mass-market retailer and their sales people have to help in several different areas. You'd be crazy to take them as absolutes in experts in snowboarding, when tomorrow the dude might be selling kayaks. A good snowboard shop will have people that live, eat, breath and (sometimes) sleep snowboarding. I've bought great gloves there, got a fantastic Red helmet with speakers, some fine stuff...but I wouldn't trust their floor sales people for a decision as important as boots, bindings and boards. Just my humble opinion.


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## notfound (Feb 27, 2013)

Nivek said:


> A 26.8 waist needs at the very least a 12.


My board is 26.8 wide and my boot are 12's and I was 99% sure I would go with Cartel's until I found this discussion and saw how small the discs were.

Given that my boot size is ok for my board .. is it possible that I will run into issues with centering these on my board?


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## bseracka (Nov 14, 2011)

The primary issues in this thread are the wrong size bindings for the boots, compounded by a wide board when it was unnecessary.


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## kaborkian (Feb 1, 2010)

notfound said:


> My board is 26.8 wide and my boot are 12's and I was 99% sure I would go with Cartel's until I found this discussion and saw how small the discs were.
> 
> Given that my boot size is ok for my board .. is it possible that I will run into issues with centering these on my board?


Yes it's possible. Burton bindings without adjustable heel cups limit the amount of side-side adjustment. Is a trade off. Stronger, lighter one piece base, or more weight and more parts that are adjustable. If you get the right size, they will work. I'm guessing you need a large, but it still could be medium. Depends on board and boots, no way to know until you try it. I have burton prohecys, medium, size 10 boots. Had to bone them to heel size on ne board, had them centered on another board, both same waist size...

Don't let it stop you from getting cartels if that's what you want to run, just be aware you may have to exchange them if they are the wrong size.


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## Supra (Jan 11, 2012)

Chomps, go right ahead & disagree with me. It's the internets! If we all agreed on stuff it wouldn't be much fun. For me, as long as my heels & toes don't hit the snow on a carve, it doesn't matter if I'm in the middle hole or the back hole, but different strokes blah blah.

Hope the mediums work out for you!


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## snowklinger (Aug 30, 2011)

anybody need to unload some mediums?


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