# Carving Technique: CASI vs AASI vs Freecarve



## baldylox

*WORK IN PROGRESS*

I thought it would be helpful and informative if we created a breakdown of all the differences in technique between the proven styles of carving. Since Freecarve is the technique I've researched the most of late, I am going to start with that and than hopefully others will follow suit with comparisons of AASI and CASI so that we can create a clear concise article for those interested.


*AASI METHOD:*


*CASI METHOD:*


*FREECARVE / ALPINE CARVING / G-FORCE CARVING / EXTREME CARVING:*

*Summary:* The idea here is to tilt to board onto as high an edge angle as possible and experience high G-force while leaving perfect half circle tracks. Freecarvers frequently ride long and narrow alpine boards with snowboard specific hard boots. 

*Technique:* These styles focus on a quiet upper body with the torso facing somewhere between the direction of the bindings and the nose of the board. Both hands can be held out front with the insides of the forearms facing down to assist in keeping the shoulders parallel to the slope at all times.

*Toeside* - Board is immediately tipped high onto edge by applying pressuring at the toes and bending knees as much as possible. Additional, the hip is dropped down toward the inside edge. Rider should avoid facing the mountain. Reaching for the snow will cause you to lose edge hold. 

*Heelside* - 

*Cross-over* -

*Cross-under -*

*Cross-through -


Bibliography:

*The Carver's Almanac - Hard booting and carving on an alpine snowboard
Freecarve.Com - Snowboard Alpine Carving
BomberOnline.com - Tech Articles


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## Guest

I'm interested to see how this thread turns out. I wonder into what category would the way I was taught fall...

BTW what's it called when you do a "loop de loop" up the mountain and back around?

Any tips for doing this on heel side? I keep falling on my butt at the top.

ty


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## baldylox

Chances are 95% of the people on this forum were taught AASI (American Association of Snowboard Instructors) if they've taken lessons. Snowolf is an AASI instructor. CASI is the Canadian equivalent...I'm not sure how different it is. And freecarve is considered bad form by most....

Freecarve


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## max_tm

I'll come back later with some notes from the CASI end (school is raping me hard right now) but I'd like to mention that what you describe as a "Freecarve" is well incorporated into CASI methodology at an expert level of riding, and is actually a specialization that you can choose at the level 4 (our highest cert. level), so most the techniques involved with riding hardboots are not considered bad form at all! (If done properly of course ).


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## baldylox

Thanks for the info max. I remember seeing that now on the CASI website. I'll correct that.


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## Grizz

max_tm said:


> the techniques involved with riding hardboots are not considered bad form at all! (If done properly of course ).


Same would be true for AASI.

I'm looking for an image of the Y model to post.

Nope can't find an image but here's the idea...

The basic skills leading up to a basic turn form the bottom leg of the Y. After the basic turn is learned the Y model branches out into Freestyle on one of the arms and Alpine/Carving on the other. Freeride fills the space between the two arms of the Y. All types of snowboarding are covered by the Y model, including hardboot "freecarving".

I think when comparing AASI to CASI to Freecarve, you will find many more similarities than differences. The differences you find will probably be based more on the type of gear than the educational methodology being used.


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## baldylox

Makes sense..... Do you see anything in those photo I posted above that indicated poor technique according to AASI?


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## Grizz

cifex said:


> Makes sense..... Do you see anything in those photo I posted above that indicated poor technique according to AASI?


Not really. It looks functional for the gear being used. I'm assuming the guy can make the turn without dragging his inside hand and is doing so for "style". If he was using it to balance on or push off of that could be an issue.


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## Guest

Snowolf said:


> I think the board performance concepts are nearly identical for all three. The main difference is the way the body is positioned on the board in freecarve. AASI and CASI tends to deal with a more generalized style of riding that also includes carving. Since most people wear soft boots and prefer a duck stance, theur body position will natuarally be a lot different.
> 
> Here is the Y model that AASI uses:


Not that I'm in much of a position to be critiquing AASI, but if I'm reading that chart correctly trees come before bumps ( I assume they mean powder bumps/moguls) and steeps? Really? I don't know how the West Coast is, but on most of the mountains here all the tree runs are expert terrain. Even in the somewhat rare case of milder tree runs, I'd still certainly feel more comfortable learning control on moguls or steeps than I would by dodging trees, since they'll just knock you on your ass instead of shattering your collar bone or sending you into a coma. What's the reasoning behind that?

Edit: Also, that ain't no Y model. That's a martini glass.


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## Grizz

Once you're riding within the glass it's not a hierarchy.

That's the old martini glass Y model btw. The new one looks more like a goblet.


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## Grizz

Good stuff, but you might want to provide a citation for that to keep things Kosher? :dunno:


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## baldylox

What do they mean when they say, "when the board crosses the fall line"? Are they saying once the board is perpendicular to the fall line as in freecarve, or maybe when the board crosses your body's fall line?


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## Guest

Snowolf said:


> _Rotate_- Slow rotation of the femur of each leg will enhance the pressure adjustment along the edge of the snowboard...


??? I don't get this concept.

If riding regular, in which direction would each femur rotate in a heel side and a toe side turn?


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## Grizz

cifex said:


> What do they mean when they say, "when the board crosses the fall line"? Are they saying once the board is perpendicular to the fall line as in freecarve, or maybe when the board crosses your body's fall line?


What's "your body's fall line"? 

Fall line is just the steepest path down the hill.


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## baldylox

Grizz said:


> What's "your body's fall line"?
> 
> Fall line is just the steepest path down the hill.


I was thinking draw a fall line from your torso down the hill. Something like that would mean the edge change when the board is about 45 degrees to the fall line. But you're right....that probably would not make sense for them to write that....


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## Grizz

Yeah, it doesn't really matter if we are talking about your nose, your balls or the mid point of your board. Fall line will be in the same direction for all three.


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## Guest

Snowolf said:


> Basically, twisting the legs to point the knee joint in the direction of the turn. So if you are regular and are making a heel side carve, you would twist your legs (your Femurs) in a counter clockwise (as viewed from above) direction to sort of drive the knees in the direction of the turn. If you were to go toeside, you would then twist your legs clockwise to try to point your knees toward a toeside direction. This leg twist or rotation is actually adding a force of pivot to the board by using the lower body not the upper body.


thanks,

I was taught to open up my left (if riding regular) hip a little on a heel side carve. and do nothing in a toe side carve. Rotating femurs is slightly different - should the hip open up at all?

and - If you rotate femurs clockwise in a toe side carve (if riding regular) it seems it would make it harder to keep proper weight on the front foot - which I've learned is important for carving. 

Should I continue to only do this type of motion in heel side carves, or would it pay off to do it toe side as well?

thanks for the advice Sno...


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## Guest

Snowolf said:


> If you were to go toeside, you would then twist your legs clockwise to try to point your knees toward a toeside direction. This leg twist or rotation is actually adding a force of pivot to the board by using the lower body not the upper body.


Just had a thought; maybe stance angle comes into play. Maybe they assumed both angles would be positive. I ride +15/ -9 if set up to ride regular. 

If both my feet were pointed forward, maybe it wouldn't seem weird to rotate my legs clockwise in a toe side carve.


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## Guest

k, thanks

I think I'll go riding tomorrow


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## max_tm

I'll comment on the teaching methodology in CASI for what we call basic and intermediate carved turns (and speculate on more advanced carving techniques, as it's something that I'm currently working on for myself).


(Wish I had my manual but I left it back home... will have to paraphrase)

In a basic carved turn, we have the students learn how to carve on green terrain with the focus on stance/balance and edging (NO emphasis on flexion and extension). We do this to have the students feel the sensation of the sidecut turning the board and what it means to have a turn that involves no skid throughout. We emphasize a good, centered stance and the use of angulation (vs. inclination) with the ankles, knees, and hips to get the board up on edge. 

In an intermediate carved turn is when we start to put in the board performance required to have students carve on blue terrain. This involves all the edging skills learned in the basic carved turn coupled with strong lower body steering and flexion and extension (up-unweighted). The focus is on flexing down and into the fall line, and extending out of the fall line and across the hill ready for the next edge change. We also start to stress anticipation at this point (having the body rotate a little bit before a change of edge occurs and having the board re-join the upper body by the completion of the turn, then have the body rotate a bit into the next turn etc.) which aids in anticipating the redirection of the board by the end of the turn (this starts to become more and more crucial as the reverse-camber generated at the end of the turn becomes more and more explosive IMO).

For more advanced forms of carving, down-unweighting comes into play, as does really aggressive angulation, and edge change completely across the fall line, but I won't comment too much as I don't really know the "official" stance on it.

I'd also like to add that for an aggressive alpine set up none of these principles would change, only the alignment because of the stance angles and possibly the movements you use to angulate the board (because of the alignment differences).


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## Guest

max_tm said:


> which aids in anticipating the redirection of the board by the end of the turn (this starts to become more and more crucial as the reverse-camber generated at the end of the turn becomes more and more explosive IMO).


Hey Max,What does, "reverse-camber generated at the end of the turn becomes more and more explosive" mean?(I assume it has nothing to do with a reverse-camber "rocker" board)Is it the board springing back to it's natural shape after really using the sidecut? If so, how does that apply to carving... how does the body rotation come into play? sounds interesting...ty


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## max_tm

Yeah I think you're getting the point (at least... as much as I understand it). The more you put your board up on edge, the more the natural shape of your board is contorted in order to get the sidecut to make contact with the snow. At the end of your turn, all the stored up energy can "pop" you out of your turn pretty aggressively, so with a little bit of anticipation with the upper body, you can help redirect that energy into getting your board moving into the next turn.


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## Guest

Max,

thanks for the info


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## Guest

Snowolf said:


> I think the board performance concepts are nearly identical for all three. The main difference is the way the body is positioned on the board in freecarve. AASI and CASI tends to deal with a more generalized style of riding that also includes carving. Since most people wear soft boots and prefer a duck stance, theur body position will natuarally be a lot different.
> 
> Here is the Y model that AASI uses:


Wolf, this is the old Y model, the new manual has a completely revamped Y model and it has changed significantly..


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## baldylox

Oneplanka: I thought you said that the CASI manual was available online? I was looking on the website and found some videos and very basic outlines but nothing that resembled a manual. If you have the link, that would be great... - Thanks

AASI manual coming this week at some point.


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## baldylox

max_tm said:


> In a basic carved turn, we have the students learn how to carve on green terrain with the focus on stance/balance and edging (NO emphasis on flexion and extension). We do this to have the students feel the sensation of the sidecut turning the board and what it means to have a turn that involves no skid throughout. We emphasize a good, centered stance and the use of angulation (vs. inclination) with the ankles, knees, and hips to get the board up on edge.


Sounds just like "The Norm" articles on bomberonline.

Feel the Carve, Ride "The Norm"

The Norm - Part II


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## baldylox

max_tm said:


> For more advanced forms of carving, down-unweighting comes into play, as does really aggressive angulation, and edge change completely across the fall line, but I won't comment too much as I don't really know the "official" stance on it.
> 
> I'd also like to add that for an aggressive alpine set up none of these principles would change, only the alignment because of the stance angles and possibly the movements you use to angulate the board (because of the alignment differences).


I was about to ask what down un-weighting is and googled it. One of the first results was an earlier thread you posted. http://www.snowboardingforum.com/ti.../9736-up-unweighting-vs-down-unweighting.html

Based on your explanation, I think what you are calling "down-unweighting", I know as "cross-through".... can anyone confirm?


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## max_tm

A while ago I would have called down-unweighting a cross-under turn, but I think in practice it is more of a cross-through (which was confirmed when I was reading a reply from a lvl 4 CASI guy on bomber online about our "dynamic carving" really being the equivalent of a cross-through turn).


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## Zee

So looking at the Martini Glass, it is not unusual to be able to ride a slope of any steepness, moguls, trees, backcountry and most slopes switch, yet not be able to land a 180.

I was starting to think there was something wrong with me lol


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## Guest

Hey guys,

What does AASI, CASI, etc say about where your butt should be in a heel side carve?

I came across this article on B.O. Now I'm a little confused; maybe you can help. In a heel side carve, I was taught to pretend I was sitting on a toilet. At the time I thought, "how high is the toilet? how's my posture? am I learning forward reading a magazine, or sitting up looking out a window?" ...but since just bending my knees helped me carve, I never asked the instructor, and never gave it anymore thought...

Then I ran into this article and the guy says sticking your butt out is bad. So then I am thinking, "just sitting on a toilet is not enough, I need to know how to sit on the toilet - in other words what should my upper body be doing in relation to my lower body."

appreciate your help...

*YOUR BUTT AND WHERE IT SHOULD NOT BE*

By Dan Bogardus​The "butt-out syndrome" is a disease that plagues many aspiring trench diggers. If you have watched a new carver perfecting his/her technique, chances are you have witnessed the dreaded syndrome. This usually occurs when the rider is on his/her heelside edge in an attempt to gain leverage in order to exert more force on the edge. For some it is just the hip, and for others (without shame) it is the whole kit n' caboodle. In either case, it is inefficient and ineffective, not to mention it looks awful. 
*By sticking your butt out, you lose your ability to effectively pressure the edge and you are likely to skid out or experience the chop (you edge bounces off the snow many times successively and rapidly). This most likely to occur on hard snow or ice, where you have to be on top of it. It is possible to produce a nice, deep, carved rut with your butt out, but you'll never be able to lay it out on ice or hard pack consistently until the problem is eliminated.*
*When you move your butt to the inside of the turn to gain leverage, you are actually moving your center of mass away from the edge, making it impossible to effectively pressure your edge, and difficult to move your center of mass back over the board to start the next turn. This also requires that you move your head forward for the counter balancing effect. In addition, this movement too far to the inside of the turn is usually accompanied with leg straightening to maintain balance, and we all know what happens when your legs are too straight (that's right- skipping out!).*
Don't despair! There is an answer (aside from burning your carving board in sacrifice to the Snow God). The answer is in the knees. By flexing the knees without breaking at the waist you can keep your center of mass over the turning edge allowing you to exert more force directly to the edge. *Also, by driving your knees laterally (side to side) toward the snow, you can increase edge angle without moving your center of mass away from the edge. Many riders already drive their back knee laterally toward the snow (or toward the front knee), but don't drive their front knee the same direction. You do have independent leg action, so take advantage of this- you don't have to keep your knees together all the time, as many old-schoolers would have you believe.*
When practicing this technique, first play with the timing and duration of the lateral movement. At the beginning of the turn, most of this movement comes from the front knee, progressing toward the tail as you near the end of the turn. A word of caution: be careful when trying this for the first time, because it will transfer more force to the edge than you are used to, and may cause it to dig in too hard and eject you from the snow (an unpleasant experience). With some practice, however, you will learn how much pressure is enough, and your power on the heel side carve will increase dramatically. Once you dial it in, you'll be layin' it out with the best of 'em—toeside and heel side. 


Also, later on (part in green) sound like the same thing Snowolf was talking about below?



Snowolf said:


> No, if you think about it, you are trying to turn clockwise for toeside (if regular and viewed from above) so adding a bit of twist to your legs in a clockwise direction is a bit like rotating your upper body to pivot clockwas as you might do in a skidded turn. Open the left hip up for heelside and close it for toeside. It reallt should not matter a whole lot what your stance angles are; you simply using your lpwer body to add a little pivot to the board as you carve on edge.


In the B.O. article, the guy is talking about a heel side carve. In a toe side carve, I assume he would say to drive the knees to the back of the board? (his language is not the best, "laterally toward the snow" ... thanks that helps a lot ) 

ty guys


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## baldylox

(O..O) said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> What does AASI, CASI, etc say about where your butt should be in a heel side carve?


My understanding is that sitting on the toilet is only bad if you do not have enough angulation / inclination... If you check out the picture I posted on the first page, he is bent at the waist to lower his center of gravity because he is performing a high g-force carve. It's more that his hip is out (cause of the 60 degree binding angles) and he is creased at the hip as if trying to hold a pencil there. 

The problem comes into play when you stick your butt out on a low edge angle carve and bend at the waist leaning your face toward the outside of the carve. The idea is to stack your bones in opposition to the G-Force experienced. 

Time for some bad artistry.....


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## Grizz

Zee said:


> So looking at the Martini Glass, it is not unusual to be able to ride a slope of any steepness, moguls, trees, backcountry and most slopes switch, yet not be able to land a 180.


If you have the skill set to ride all that terrain and switch, I would be extremely surprised if you *couldn't* land a 180.


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## Zee

Grizz said:


> If you have the skill set to ride all that terrain and switch, I would be extremely surprised if you *couldn't* land a 180.


Let's just say I haven't tried it off a jump... :laugh:

I can ride most slopes switch, except harder blacks and double blacks. Probably time to grow a set and just go for it. I'm 36, falling hurts more.


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## Guest

cifex said:


> My understanding is that sitting on the toilet is only bad if you do not have enough angulation / inclination... If you check out the picture I posted on the first page, he is bent at the waist to lower his center of gravity because he is performing a high g-force carve. It's more that his hip is out (cause of the 60 degree binding angles) and he is creased at the hip as if trying to hold a pencil there.
> 
> The problem comes into play when you stick your butt out on a low edge angle carve and bend at the waist leaning your face toward the outside of the carve. The idea is to stack your bones in opposition to the G-Force experienced.


Thanks for reply cifex!



> The idea is to stack your bones in opposition to the G-Force experienced.


That's a good way of thinking about it. I was just thinking about center of gravity (cog), but you can have the same cog with different body positions. However some postions would give you less control and make it harder to adjust the cog. 

Based on the pictures, seems like I was ok. I'm definitely the guy on the left (+arms)


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## Grizz

It's going to hurt less at 36 than 46.

There's no rule that says you have to go big or even do it off an actual jump. 

If you can do it right now in the living room without a board on I'm sure you can do it on the hill.


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## Guest

cifex said:


> Time for some bad artistry.....


Last time out, I was having huge problems going heelside on hard snow and ice. After reading this thread, I realize why - I was doing it exactly "WRONG"! The article (O..O) posted was really helpful... looks like I had a bad case of Butt Out Syndrome. Can't wait to try doing it right this weekend!


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## max_tm

Not to be a stickler... but although picture 2 is DEFINITELY wrong, picture 1 has an issue as well: you should be somewhere in between those two extremes, with your shoulders parallel to the snow. The inclination required to counter act the centrifugal force (or to generate a centripetal force? not a physicist) should be done with the entire body and not just by the top half or else you risk throwing your COM off your edge. Only the eurocarve style guys would be doing something opposite of what I described (with their entire body laid out across the hill) but the incredible balance required for that technique is a testament to "shoulders parallel to the hill".


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## baldylox

No. Be a stickler. That's why I made the thread. 

I think you mean that he is excessively angulated for the average carve. And also I couldn't draw a straight line so it looks like he is in a loungue chair. Could you draw what you mean? I didn't bother to add shoulders into that picture so I'm not sure why you are mentioning them. 

Do we like this better?


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## max_tm

Is there paint on a mac? Serious issues trying to find it . What I'm trying to explain is if you took the guy on the left in the original picture and took his torso and sat it up straight, he'd be in a good position IMO. If you want to angulate with your hips and are in a ducked out (or low angle) soft boot stance, there is going to be a little toilet-seatery going on no matter what if you want to get some good edge angle. I think the key is to not take it to the extreme where your body breaks that vertical plane like in your pictures on the right. And when I mention shoulders I imagined them perpendicular to the dude's body, so that in (for example) your picture number 2 on the left, his shoulders would be parallel to the snow, but I'd say that that guy is not using his knees and hips to angulate enough (relying too much on his ankles, which are important, but not enough).


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## baldylox




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## MunkySpunk

Toeside diagram?


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## baldylox

MunkySpunk said:


> Toeside diagram?


I think that'll have to wait till next week. My home computer is linux and I can't draw for shit in GIMP. Going to Powder Mountain, Utah tomorrow.


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## Vlaze

cifex said:


>


That's the proper way to snowboard according to the pic. However, keep in mind it's not the proper way to take a dump without having it miss your pants if you go to the back country searching for privacy.


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## baldylox

Snowolf: When you say dynamic carve in this thread (http://www.snowboardingforum.com/snowboarding-general-chat/4221-definition-beginner-intermediate-advanced.html), you're referring to a cross-under carve, right?


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## Guest

heyo,

I took a lesson on carving today. (didn't snowboard yesterday like I said I would)

We worked on the flex / extension of the legs and something else I couldn't quite get the rhythm of...

I'm not sure what max meant by "shoulders" earlier... 
anyway I have something to consider:

Where's our guy in the turn? his body would change... 

also, I wanted to get opinion on the else mentioned above. My instructor had me putting extra pressure on the front foot after the transition - and extra pressure on the back foot coming out of the turn into the next transition...

What does AASI, CASI think?

I don't know if it's right or wrong, but when I was able to put everything together, it felt like I was going to rip the mountain apart...

...it was a good day, then I decided to spend the second half in the park. I caught an edge on something I didn't belong near - I think I broke a rib...


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## baldylox

More pressure in the front, and then easing it toward the rear think is pretty standard everywhere. More pressure in the front of the board going into the turn to get your edge and then throughout the turn you start putting more pressure toward the rear to load up the tail before changing edges. 

When you start going really high on edge for really laid out turns it's more accentuated. The trick is to not try to lean back during the turn to change your weight but instead sort slide the board up toward the front. They explain it well on alpinecarving.com. 



> *Weight shift*
> Right after an edge change, you need to enter a carve with your weight toward the front of the board, and shift your weight back as you progress through the carve. This method is often called "feeding the dollar bill." Do not start a carve in the middle or back seat. Use your legs to get your weight forward - don't do it by breaking at the waist and bending over too far, or you will bury the nose and go over the handlebars. When carving fast turns on the steeps, you may not have time to do the weight shift. In this case, you don't have to actually shift your weight - it is sufficient to merely think about shifting your weight to get a small bit of extra edge hold. You know you are doing the weight shift correctly if you get a lot of tail spring from the board without trying for it.
> Alpine Carving Technique - The Carver's Almanac


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## MunkySpunk

cifex said:


> I think that'll have to wait till next week. My home computer is linux and I can't draw for shit in GIMP. Going to Powder Mountain, Utah tomorrow.


At least your priorities are straight. Tear it up!


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## max_tm

I guess he body position that I'm trying to convey can be very well summed up by the picture on the right side of this webpage: Donek Snowboards and Skis :: Handcrafted in Colorado :: Race, Alpine, Carving, Freeride and Freestyle Snowboards :: Telemark Skis & Alpine Skis see how his (her?) body his not laid out flat, and his shoulders are "parallel" (as much as they should be) to the slope (coincidentally, I'm looking at getting a Donek Freeride as my next board, any opinions on that ?)


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## Guest

max_tm said:


> I guess he body position that I'm trying to convey can be very well summed up by the picture on the right side of this webpage: Donek Snowboards and Skis :: Handcrafted in Colorado :: Race, Alpine, Carving, Freeride and Freestyle Snowboards :: Telemark Skis & Alpine Skis see how his (her?) body his not laid out flat, and his shoulders are "parallel" (as much as they should be) to the slope (coincidentally, I'm looking at getting a Donek Freeride as my next board, any opinions on that ?)


does it matter that it's a banked turn?


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## max_tm

lol didn't even notice that. Maybe there are some banked-turn related things going on here :dunno: but my opinion still stands that if you were to put that rider exactly as is on to a normal groomer they would carve a pretty mean trench (accepting the fact that every other part of the turn goes as planned; with initiation, movement in the legs, turn completion etc. etc. etc.)


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## Guest

Now I'm confused... the guy in the Donek pic looks a lot like cifex's "wrong" pic and has his butt sticking way out.


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## max_tm

I guess that's the point I'm trying to make more or less; with typical softboot angles you're going to get some toilet seat going on if you want to angulate your turns hard (which is the way to tighten up the natural radius of your turn for a given speed). The reason why forward angles are beneficial is that you can drive your hip down into the snow while keeping your butt over your edge, getting both great angulation and having your COM sit right on top of your edge. A little toilet seat throws off your balance, but there's not much of a choice if you want the angulation. Keep in mind the article on bomber online is catered towards just that: riders with agressive forward angles that have no excuse to have their butt sticking out.


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## Guest

*PART II of this POST* (too many characters)​ 
Admittedly, the decreasing radius with increasing speed seems counter-intuitive at first glance. Obviously, we can go careening down the hill at break-neck speeds making very broad, barely leaned-over turns. But in this sense, we are not truly carving the sidecut; we are forcing it to take a path other than the one its shape would rather make. Think about when you are carving down a gentle slope at relatively low speed. You can only lean over so much. Tearing down a steeper slope at high speed, we can lean over all we want. The more we can lean, the tighter radius we can carve.
Also, we can pump our turns with our knees and make sharper carves than these equations would permit. But a pumped carve is short-lived, as the pumping effect only lasts for a moment. Pumping temporarily magnifies force on the edge. Pumping a carve is almost always followed by a change of edges, as in slalom carving or slalom racing. If we apply additional force with a pumping motion, we can alter carve radius – briefly. But it's a trade-off. Pumping can benefit you in situations where you need to make a quick turn, but it can hurt in others where margin for error is slim, as the exaggerated up and down motion could upset your balance.
Back to the instructor telling you that one body position somehow puts more force on the edge than another. This is simply untrue. A person weighing a certain amount travelling at a certain speed around a certain radius only generates one certain amount of force on the edge. The force on the edge is the combination of our centrifugal force and our weight, if we are carving a consistent, sustained, non-pumped carve.
Perhaps the instructor tells you that assuming the racer-like position puts more body mass close to the edge. Now this is true. But it is important to realize that this does not generate more force on the edge, rather, it enhances balance. Notice that the distance between E and COG plays no part in the above equations. Therefore it is possible to carve a turn using either a low, properly angulated body position or an extended, laid-out, purely inclinated body position. This is why "eurocarves" are possible. However at high speeds on steeps and ice, eurocarving would require impossibly super-human balance
Having our center of gravity close to our point of support improves balance in all situations. It is easier to walk on a short pair of stilts than the two-story rigs you see at the circus. It is easier to ride your bicycle no-handed sitting in your seat than standing up on the pedals. The racer-like position, with deeply bent knees, upright upper body and shoulders level to the hill minimizes the distance between E and COG and therefore improves our ability to maintain balance while carving high speed turns on the steeps.
But what is the use of this information? It comes in very handy when selecting a snowboard for a particular use. Say you were looking to purchase a new carving board and you narrowed your selections down to either Prior or Burton. Prior's WCR175 has a sidecut radius of 11.5m; Burton's Factory Prime 173 has a sidecut radius of 13.31m. What this tells you is that the Prior will reach a particular turn radius at a slower speed and lower edge angle than the Burton. Also, at a given speed, the Prior will be carving a tighter turn. This may be a good or a bad thing depending on what you want to do. If you spend most of your time riding the narrower trails of eastern North America, the Prior would be the better choice. If you ride wide open terrain where you can arc huge high speed turns at your leisure, the Burton might be a better choice.
If you're a racer and you prefer the round-carves/stay-high technique, the Burton would carve a given radius at higher speed. If you race using the point-straight-at-the-gate-and-make-a-quick-turn-at-the-last-second technique, the Prior would make a quicker carve at a given speed.
Or, let's say you've been riding something like Burton's FP164 and you're considering something longer. If you like the size and shape of the carves you make on the FP164, but you feel you need more edge hold, you would want to shop for something with more length but similar sidecut radius. Noting that the FP164 has a sidecut radius of 11.79m, you would be wise to select the WCR175. It will carve turns of similar radius, but alas, there's no such thing as a free lunch. You'll have to exchange the lighter weight and maneuverability of the 164 for the superior edge hold and stability of the 175.
But what about angulation? Remember, angulation serves to adjust actual edge angle with respect to inclination angle, to a limit. With a purely inclinated turn, our edge angle and inclination angle are the same. Using angulation, our edge angle and inclination angle can be different.
Let's suppose we have a snowboarder using a board with a 12m sidecut radius. From the equations, we can determine that when this snowboarder makes a purely inclinated carve at 9m/s, he will be able to carve a turn with an 8.7m radius. This will occur at an angle of inclination of 43.5°. If he tries to lean in any further without angulating, he will simply fall to the inside of the turn. But what if he does use angulation? We must write new equations to determine what happens. The balance of weight vs. centrifugal force is:








which reduces to:






But with angulation, we have a new expression for R:​





We show the extra angle δ supplied by angulation as being added to the angle of inclination. The sum of θ + δ is the total edge angle of the board.​When our snowboarder was only using inclination, traveling at 9m/s, his maximum edge angle was 43.5°. Using angulation, we can get around this apparent limit. Let's now suppose that the snowboarder uses angulation to dictate a 50° edge angle. The balance of forces becomes:






 

Therefore, the angle of inclination must be = 46.9°​ 
Since edge angle is q + d, the snowboarder is using 3.1° of angulation. This allows a carve radius of 7.7m, at the speed of 9m/s, where before he was only able to muster an 8.7m radius without angulation. 
It is interesting to note that angulation allows us to increase inclination as well. Think of it this way. Increasing edge angle reduces turn radius. Reducing turn radius increases centrifugal force, at a given speed. The increase in centrifugal force requires our angle of inclination to increase.
Another curious effect of angulation is that as speed increases, the difference between the edge angle and the inclination angle gets smaller and smaller. At a speed of 10m/s, a 12m sidecut radius would produce a 6.3m radius turn, without using any angulation. The inclination angle and the edge angle would both have to be 58.3°, and no greater. Using angulation to increase edge angle to 65°, we find that the new angle of inclination is 63.5°. The angle supplied by angulation must be 1.5°. Evidence of this is shown in this picture of a racer, displaying excellent technique:







He is obviously angulated, but as he is moving at high speed, his inclination angle and edge angle are very close. If we were to draw a line from his center of gravity to the top of his board, it would be almost perpendicular to the top of his board. Without angulation, the line from his center of gravity would be exactly perpendicular to the top of his board. Had he not used any angulation, he wouldn't have been able to lean in as much. By using angulation, he carves a tighter turn, and is in better position for the next gate. He also gains stability by keeping his center of gravity closer to his point of support.​Why bother with all the physics and trig? You certainly aren't required to get so theoretical about it because our bodies can feel when we're balancing the forces properly. To have an understanding of some of the physics of carving could provoke you to consider aspects of your riding that you might not have otherwise. You might even consider it fun to ponder all this while carving, and to know exactly what is going on. These toys we strap to our feet provoke our brains to work probably twice as hard as normal, computing thousands of these physics calculations every second we spend hurtling down a snow-covered slope. Yet this is the stuff that recharges our batteries, fuels our spirit, makes us feel alive. Physics is what is at the heart of it all, and to know it is to know the heart of snowboarding.
Reference:
Skiing Mechanics, John Howe
Poudre Press
1983


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## Guest

*PART I of this POST*



max_tm said:


> I guess that's the point I'm trying to make more or less; with typical softboot angles you're going to get some toilet seat going on if you want to angulate your turns hard (which is the way to tighten up the natural radius of your turn for a given speed). The reason why forward angles are beneficial is that you can drive your hip down into the snow while keeping your butt over your edge, getting both great angulation and having your COM sit right on top of your edge. A little toilet seat throws off your balance, but there's not much of a choice if you want the angulation. Keep in mind the article on bomber online is catered towards just that: riders with agressive forward angles that have no excuse to have their butt sticking out.












(notice the guy seems to have a lot of padding on his right arm?)

anyway, thanks to the people of this forum - I think I'm starting to put it all together. 

To execute carves, you have no choice but to move, bend, lean etc. When parts of the body stray further from the line of inclination (the line from edge to COG) than necessary, it's bad.

Correct stance and bad stance can have the same line of inclination. However - with bad stance (butt out / head forward), more body mass is off that line. That makes it harder to change your COG if you want to (therefore harder to adjust balance with the terrain, harder to prepare for the next turn, harder to recover if things start going bad, etc)

Also more work is involved because you need to move more body mass back and forth...

anyway, that's my theory. Next time out, I'm going to think about keeping as much of me "over" the edge as I can without hindering useful movements...

Here's an article I found on B.O. 


*Physics of a Snowboard Carved Turn*

*by Jack Michaud with Iain Duncumb*

The snowboard is a wonderful tool that serves many purposes. We use them to have fun, to blow off steam, to exercise, to enjoy the outdoors, and to share good times with friends. However, as we use them, our subconscious learns valuable lessons in Physics. With a little trigonometry, we can realize a few key things that happen as we carve, that we can then consciously contemplate on the hill. Appreciating and understanding the physics at hand, we can become better carvers. 
Have you ever taken a snowboarding lesson where the instructor says "keep your body over the board… this puts more weight on the edge"? While keeping your body over your board is good advice, the benefit is not that you somehow generate more weight on the edge. If while considering your instructor's sermon you thought to yourself "I can't put any more or less weight on the edge, I only weigh so much!" for the most part, you'd be right.
The real benefits to assuming a poised racer-type body position are balance and angulation. As we tilt our snowboard up on an angle, the shape of our snowboard carves a circular path in the snow. As we travel around this path, we feel a centrifugal force that seems to pull us towards the outside of the carve. To balance this force, we lean in towards the center of the carve. This is just like trying to walk while carrying a heavy suitcase in one hand. We have to lean away from the suitcase in order to balance. While we carve a turn, our centrifugal force is the suitcase. (Physics purists will insist that there is no such thing as centrifugal force and that it is only proper to speak of centripetal force acting towards the center of the circle. Though this is true in an absolute frame of reference, it is perfectly acceptable to discuss centrifugal force in a body-centered inertial frame of reference.)
You feel this every time you snowboard, you knew that already. But consider this chain of logic. Centrifugal force is determined by our speed and the radius of the turn. Our centrifugal force determines how much we need to lean in. Our lean angle helps determine our edge angle. Our edge angle and the sidecut of our board determine the radius of the turn. Sounds like a circular argument, right?
Consider this diagram: 









cog = center of gravity
E = point of edge contact
m = body mass
θ = edge angle
V = velocity (speed)
R = turn radius
Omitting the effect of angulation for the moment, we tilt the board up and lean by angle θ in order to balance the centrifugal force mV2/R. The equation for this balance looks like this: 






 
We shall ignore the effect of hill slope angle for the purposes of this discussion, as the analysis becomes much more complicated. For the complete description of the equation for a carved turn accounting for hill slope angle and rider position along the arc, make a pilgrimage to the library and pray that they have a copy of John Howe's book Skiing Mechanics. This representation of the balance of forces applies to any object travelling in a circular sense, so we can use it as a close approximation and a good illustration.​Before we continue, let's define a few terms. Inclination is the PSIA term for the lean angle of our center of gravity. Angulation is the PSIA term for creating angles in the body. If you stand on your board like a pole and simply lean into a turn, you are turning with no angulation, only inclination. When we bring angulation into the picture, some interesting things happen. By creating angles with our ankles, knees, waist and shoulders, it is possible to increase actual edge angle with respect to our angle of inclination. But the end result may surprise you. 
To solve the equation for all of the above variables, we shall assume that our rider is making a purely inclinated turn, whereby the board remains perpendicular to the line between E and COG. In this case, edge angle and angle of inclination are one and the same.​ 
It is clear that a given speed results in only one real carve radius where the sidecut is dictating the path, without angulation. We can calculate values of R versus V for given sidecut radii in a spreadsheet and plot the results:









Click Here for a clearer version
The downward curving lines represent our carve radius decreasing as speed increases. For reference, 10m/s = 22.5mph. Each curve is plotted for a different sidecut radius. The bottom curve results from a 9m sidecut radius, similar to many freestyle boards about 160cm long. . The top curve represents a 22m sidecut radius, similar to many of today's semi-shaped skis. The curves are incremented by 1 meter, with a gap between 16m and 22m. The straight lines that cross the radius curves represent lines of constant natural edge angle; "natural edge angle" meaning the angle that must be used without angulation. A dead weight could carve a snowboard balanced at the natural edge angle for a given speed, on a smooth surface. The left-most line displays a natural edge angle of 5° and the right-most line represents a 75° natural edge angle. These lines are incremented by 10°.
Example: using a board with a 12-meter sidecut radius at a speed of about 9.8m/s, we can carve a 7-meter radius turn using a 55° natural edge angle. If we tried to lean over any further, we would simply fall to the inside of the turn. If we didn't lean in enough, we would slide the board along a broader turn.


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## max_tm

> Next time out, I'm going to think about keeping as much of me "over" the edge as I can without hindering useful movements...


I think that just pretty much sums up the thread. Wish I could have explained it like that.




Actually, what was that thing about the dude having padding on his arm?


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## Guest

I see you guys are all talking about different carving but dont forget wonderful hop turns lol.
Us east coast up into vermont people use em all the time. It probably fits best in free riding where your hitting up the glades alot. its just hopping with the back of your board to quick turn or slow down so you dont smash into a tree. Can be used for jibbing off a rtee to make a sharp turn or pointing down hill.

Another turn I can think of hat hasnt been named or atleast that I saw is quick radiance turns. A good example of this is if you see a sky going down the hil and they have their skies uber close together and using theire poles the go back and forthe really fast. Basicaly the same thing. Personaly I use it when there isnt a ton of snow on the slopes. I head over to the very edges of the slopes and just point it thrusting out your back foot slightly to just keep your speed controled. Its and awesome feeling when you come up on his tail and follow his exact movements lol. Just my bits


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## Guest

max_tm said:


> Actually, what was that thing about the dude having padding on his arm?


I just noticed our donek buddy seems to have a big right forearm. Wondered if it's padding or even a cast?


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## max_tm

nono, we're not as concerned as I have expressed it in this thread, our stance is the same as AASI's on this. I feel like I haven't conveyed what I'm trying to say properly at all... I'm trying to explain why that article posted at the beginning of the thread relates more to a rider with an aggressive forward stance as opposed to a typical soft boot rider, and the limitation with our stances (inevitable toilet seat if you want to keep your balance, but not so much so that it's counter-productive to actually keeping your balance).


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## legallyillegal

(O..O) said:


> I just noticed our donek buddy seems to have a big right forearm. Wondered if it's padding or even a cast?


Ever hit a plastic pole at speed?


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## Guest

legallyillegal said:


> Ever hit a plastic pole at speed?


No, I just stick w/ trees. - LOL 

Good call. What kind of event you think it is? Based on his board position, it kinds looks like he's trying to keep it flat.


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## Guest

legallyillegal said:


> Ever hit a plastic pole at speed?


nope only one made of iron ...with my head
took me 3 weeks to recover from the concussion


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## ScBlack

wow...now I feel like I need to be a rocket scientist in order to get better at carving..


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## Guest

hey,

I couldn't find any images of anyone carving a turn (soft boot) on their toe side with their hips thrust forward (like I was taught)

I was taught it gets a better angle on the edge. When I do it, it's pronounced. Is this correct?


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## Vlaze

falconis said:


> nope only one made of iron ...with my head
> took me 3 weeks to recover from the concussion


That poor pole.... Falc you need to be considerate of other objects, joking.


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## Guest

ScBlack said:


> wow...now I feel like I need to be a rocket scientist in order to get better at carving..


LOL - everyone learns differently. For me, understanding the physics is helping my body learn what to do. Someone more athletic w/ better body awareness would figure all this out without being able to express it in words...


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## max_tm

(O..O) said:


> hey,
> 
> I couldn't find any images of anyone carving a turn (soft boot) on their toe side with their hips thrust forward (like I was taught)
> 
> I was taught it gets a better angle on the edge. When I do it, it's pronounced. Is this correct?


Hips forward is definitely the way to go, but there is an extreme as well on the toeside that you should not surpass (or else risk balance issues like on heelside). Here's a good exercise to do on flat ground to get you aware of what level of pelvic thrust you need:
Unstrap your back foot, put it in front of your toeside, as if you're simulating a toeside turn. Lift your back foot off the ground and try balancing on your edge only with inclination (don't push your hips forward, just keep your body straight and try to stay perfectly perpendicular to your board): you won't do too well. Next try pushing your hips forward arching your back really hard, (like REALLY hard) and try to balance on your edge in the same way: again, it's not going to work very well. Next try to find something in the middle, with your hips forward but with your back straight (something close to perpendicular to the snow) and play around with that position until you find something that allows you to balance on your edge.

That will give you an idea of how pronounced a thrust won't be counter-productive (if you're carving well now, I'm sure you're doing it fine and it just feels very pronounced).


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## Guest

Hey max,

I don't understand your exercise. But you're probably right that I'm ok w/ my hips. 

The weird thing is that after all kinds of google image searches, I couldn't find anyone with their hips forward and back arched in a toe side carve.


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## Guest

Hey,

"Thank you" to cifex, snowolf, max_tm, and the others that posted that posted on these carving threads. It really helped me out.

I took 3 lessons on carving, but I got just as much info on here. After my last lesson on friday, the instructor said, "I got nothing left to teach you" and gave me another name .




Snowolf said:


> She is correctly stressing this method of shifting the hips forward and arching the back.


She seems real cute. You got any videos minus the clothes?


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## Guest

*Yes! Carving.....*

well guys, just subscribed to the forum about a week ago because i was looking for carving advice and boy did i ever find a lot of it here, and very good advice at that. Went out today and employed a lot of what I learned on here and had a very successful day. I had been doing dynamic skid turns but today I was able to really progress to 'real' dynamic turns. I really concentrated on using leg rotation, hips, and especially ankle flexion/extension to initiate and ride the turn and the results were great. I could really feel the edges 'hooking up' on both heel and toeside, especially on the toeside when flexing the ankles downward and arcing my back out then feeling the board transition under me while my body stayed inside my board turn radius....hopefully i'm explaining it right. It was awesome and my carve tracks were a single groove with no 'swipe' action. I went from around a eight inch carve swath to like a single edge groove. It was killer!!! Thanks for all the tips. 

As I incorporate speed into my carving, what is the progression? I'm making narrower arcs as i flow downhill while keeping speed but still riding edge and linking turns. Does this make sense? I want to carve at high speed and this seems like the only way to do it... I want a narrow path and high speed but carving at the same time... know what i mean? I dont want to make full S turns all the time....it seems very difficult to do at speed on steeper slopes... any tips/ideas/question?

Thanks for all the help.


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## Guest

Went out yesterday with my bindings set up correctly and new knowledge from this thread. Of course I'm nowhere near being a carving master, but I did a lot better than I'd been doing before. I even managed to do a few where the board popped off the ground a bit when I changed edges... feels really cool! Gotta be careful though... I was looking uphill to see my tracks and nearly went flying off the trail into a thick forest :laugh:. Thanks for all the advice :thumbsup:.


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## MunkySpunk

Snowolf said:


> Here is a good video of an instructor teaching a heel to toe turn. She is correctly stressing this method of shifting the hips forward and arching the back.
> 
> To really understand how this works, strap your board on at home on the carpet. To simulate a heelside turn (and carve) squat down a little like the "toilet" example and really flex your ankles and knees to lift the toe edge. As you sit down into this, you will feel the toe side edge lift off the floor all by itself as a result of positioning your center of mass over the hell edge.
> 
> Now, to really feel the power of a good toe side carve, do what you see her do in this video. Shove your hips forward and arch your back. You will feel your heels just lift up off the floor.
> 
> We call this the "hump and dump" method. You hump to go toe side and take a dump to go heelside. For carving, you will employ the same maneuver, but you will moderate them a n bit to keep your Cm over the board.
> 
> How to Carve Toeside on a Snowboard: How to Snowboard | eHow.com


Got 2 issues, instructors. 

I'm trying to pay more attention to thrusting the hips forward and bending the knees for a toe-side like the chick in the video said. I can see why it's the preferred method, it takes less effort and it brings the board up at a higher angle. I flex my knees, thrust the hips and feel my shins pressing against the front of the boot to lift the edge up. I can feel the edge bite, and I can take my graceful arcs, looking pretty suave (if I say so myself). But at high speeds the system peters out and loses its reliability for me. When I bounce over bumps or ridges, the board has a tendency to want to flatten out (angle of my ankle in relation to my shin and the top of my foot decreases as I absorb the bounce and the board edge pivots down), and this scares the shit out of me. By all rights last night during one incident, I should have caught a heel edge while going toeside at some serious speed and been put into the hospital. I don't know how I recovered from it, all I know is that since I've got a NS Titan, I had no business recovering from it. 

For me, the crouch down and tilt the body over the front of the board is a much more stable way to hold that edge at speed, but if it's the wrong way to do it, I'd rather break that bad habit. Is the hip-thrust something only for slow to moderate speeds or should I be working on this to make it reliable when going balls-out? Is this a boot stiffness issue? I'm rocking Motos right now, b/c that was all I could afford two years ago. But I'm really starting to notice the lack of stiffness in them. I've since graduated and gotten an actual job, so I got a pair of Cirros on the way from Daddies board shop (33% off sale, last size 14 in stock) and they're decently stiff from what I've read.

Another issue is holding the carving edge at heelside. I can see why the hip-thrust works toeside as it really gets the angle of that board up nice and high, but I can't find an analog for heelside. I can't get the board up high enough heel-side to hold the edge without skidding out for any moderate to tight radius turns, unless I'm bending at the waist to keep more weight ontop of the edge. Bending my knees doesn't really seem to help with anything except getting my body lower, the board angle remains constant.


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## MunkySpunk

Bump.
Need help.


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