# Flat Light Vertigo,...



## chomps1211 (Mar 30, 2011)

I had some real trouble today riding in the flat light. All morning I could not see any details or changes in the terrain on the groomers and it was messing me up _*bad!!*_ My heel/toe transitions felt very sketchy and awkward and it was jacking me around _something awful_ with my balance in general! :blink:

At first I thought it might just be me needing to scrape more rust off the Ol' muscle memory, but I confirmed flat light vertigo as the bulk of the problem this evening when I got back out & rode the floodlit slopes. Conditions were _far_ more chopped, bumpy and tracked out! But, because I could see all the big & small changes in the terrain,.. My balance, speed, confidence and toe/heel transitions were much, _MUCH_ better. :dunno:

Does anyone know of any tips/tricks to help me overcome or cope with this issue? (…I imagine I will likely run into a few flat light conditions next month in CO!!)  

(Fyi, I was riding with the light yellow lenses on my Oakley's.) I've tried doing laps with the Gog's up! But my eyes tear up so bad in the cold wind, I might as well ride with them shut! :blink: :dunno:


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## Argo (Feb 25, 2010)

Get used to it. Just wait for flat light and fog. Just go to instinct and ride loose in the legs and core. Keep it around half speed to until you can see something for reference on speed and slope angle. ..


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## Phedder (Sep 13, 2014)

Sounds dodgy (because it is!) but I got better at riding flat light by learning to link turns with my eyes closed. Obviously you want a very mellow, and *empty* slope to try this on, but it really helped me become more aware of my body positioning, edge angles, and of course the big dog of it all, gravity. 

No idea if that's good advice or not, but I felt like it made me more confident in flat light. Just spent one afternoon on the bunny slopes mucking around with all sorts, and about 1/3 of the time was riding with my eyes closed.


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## mojo maestro (Jan 6, 2009)

I've been moving down the hill and didn't even realize it. Time to head into the trees. Practice.......maybe........seems as if it's not as bad as it used to be. Follow a rope down, focus on a stationary object or use other people to focus on?


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## ridinbend (Aug 2, 2012)

Ride by braille dude. You gotta slow down but don't stay on one edge. I just try and make tight turns as smoothly as I can to feel my way along when you don't even know if your touching the snow.



mojo maestro said:


> Follow a rope down, focus on a stationary object or use other people to focus on?


This too


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## freshy (Nov 18, 2009)

Get some yellow lenses and stick to the trees. Ride like you might drop an unexpected cliff because it might just happen, keep your center of gravity low, knees bent but loose to absorb any unseen terrain.
Speed is almost impossible to judge. Ive had a situation above the tree line in pea soup dense fog where I thought I was ripping but fell over because I was actually moving so slow.


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## Tatanka Head (Jan 13, 2014)

Argo said:


> Get used to it. Just wait for flat light and fog. Just go to instinct and ride loose in the legs and core. Keep it around half speed to until you can see something for reference on speed and slope angle. ..


This is my technique. Be loose, feel with your board, and cross your fingers. I know this isn't always an option, but when possible, ride behind someone and follow their turns. 

My worst vertigo moment was last year. It was trippy as fuck and I was a long ways from the lodge. I knew there was a traverse and an uphill section I had to clear, I just had no clue where it was. A mystery skier came through and my friend and I basically rode with our tips to the back of their skis. Saved us from hiking out.


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## wrathfuldeity (Oct 5, 2007)

Argo said:


> Get used to it. Just wait for flat light and fog. Just go to instinct and ride loose in the legs and core. Keep it around half speed to until you can see something for reference on speed and slope angle. ..


Pretty much this in PNW...the majority of the time. Fly low, loose and be ready for anything....and turn on the snowbat sonar.



freshy said:


> Get some yellow lenses and stick to the trees. Ride like you might drop an unexpected cliff because it might just happen, keep your center of gravity low, knees bent but loose to absorb any unseen terrain.
> Speed is almost impossible to judge. Ive had a situation above the tree line in pea soup dense fog where I thought I was ripping but fell over because I was actually moving so slow.


^and this

Know where you are and where you are going!

Ride low.

I've had the opposite also in a blowing whiteout...thought I was standing still...but was hauling ass to my demise.

Flat, pea soup fog and blowing whiteout....can be a vertigo situation.


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## Noreaster (Oct 7, 2012)

Echolocation! Learn to make your way down by bouncing high pitched noises off of skiers.


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## Psicko (Dec 26, 2015)

Get the yellow lenses, or other colored lens that are appropriate for the light conditions. A few weeks ago, I went boarding when it was snowing and overcast. I had a hard time seeing any details or contour changes. I bought different colored lenses after that. I haven't gotten to try it yet, but from what I heard it works well. My buddy was wearing yellow lenses and could see the details. I should have looked through them to check them out, but oh well.


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## Rogue (Nov 29, 2014)

chomps1211 said:


> I had some real trouble today riding in the flat light. All morning I could not see any details or changes in the terrain on the groomers and it was messing me up _*bad!!*_ My heel/toe transitions felt very sketchy and awkward and it was jacking me around _something awful_ with my balance in general! :blink:
> 
> At first I thought it might just be me needing to scrape more rust off the Ol' muscle memory, but I confirmed flat light vertigo as the bulk of the problem this evening when I got back out & rode the floodlit slopes. Conditions were _far_ more chopped, bumpy and tracked out! But, because I could see all the big & small changes in the terrain,.. My balance, speed, confidence and toe/heel transitions were much, _MUCH_ better. :dunno:
> 
> ...


In case everyone missed the color of lens he already said he was wearing....


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## STR8SHOOTR (Jan 3, 2014)

I like clear lenses at night


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## speedjason (May 2, 2013)

Ride loose is the key.
I kinda thank for my local little hill for teaching me on that. Cloudy day, dark goggles, spotty ice trained me being able to ride on all kinds of surfaces.


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## bksdds (Jul 2, 2015)

chomps1211 said:


> I had some real trouble today riding in the flat light. All morning I could not see any details or changes in the terrain on the groomers and it was messing me up _*bad!!*_ My heel/toe transitions felt very sketchy and awkward and it was jacking me around _something awful_ with my balance in general! :blink:
> 
> At first I thought it might just be me needing to scrape more rust off the Ol' muscle memory, but I confirmed flat light vertigo as the bulk of the problem this evening when I got back out & rode the floodlit slopes. Conditions were _far_ more chopped, bumpy and tracked out! But, because I could see all the big & small changes in the terrain,.. My balance, speed, confidence and toe/heel transitions were much, _MUCH_ better. :dunno:
> 
> ...


Sounds like a pair of these might fit the bill - Smith I/O Recon. (Description says it has GPS) :hairy:


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## Oldman (Mar 7, 2012)

ridinbend said:


> Ride by braille dude. You gotta slow down but don't stay on one edge. I just try and make tight turns as smoothly as I can to feel my way along when you don't even know if your touching the snow.


As much as we all wanna rip, ya gotta slow down. Know your terrain. First time down any run, even one you have done a million times, take your time to find out if the groomer has altered the slope in any fashion.

You have the right lens, now you just need to see if you can find a comfort zone. Easier said than done and for whatever reason, some days I can find the groove, other days, not so much. On those days when my braille skills are AWOL, I head over to the bunny hill to work on switch, spins and other fun stuff. Never a day wasted!


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## jae (Nov 27, 2015)

Which goggles are you rocking? Are you R/G colorblind? Are they Hi-yellow or just yellow lenses? Try switching to a light pink or clear lenses. The pink filters blue.. Improving Color Vision with Lenses for the Colorblind | Colblindor


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## snowklinger (Aug 30, 2011)

*Flat light is a bitch not to be solved but suffered.*



chomps1211 said:


> I had some real trouble today riding in the flat light. All morning I could not see any details or changes in the terrain on the groomers and it was messing me up _*bad!!*_ My heel/toe transitions felt very sketchy and awkward and it was jacking me around _something awful_ with my balance in general! :blink:
> 
> At first I thought it might just be me needing to scrape more rust off the Ol' muscle memory, but I confirmed flat light vertigo as the bulk of the problem this evening when I got back out & rode the floodlit slopes. Conditions were _far_ more chopped, bumpy and tracked out! But, because I could see all the big & small changes in the terrain,.. My balance, speed, confidence and toe/heel transitions were much, _MUCH_ better. :dunno:
> 
> ...


Yea heres what we do in flat light: ride trees.

Open slopes in flat light blow pretty much period unless you are hitting steep and deep, and even then...

I get hella vertigo irl off mountain or whatever and when there is a bit of mist and flat light I don't even know if I've stopped or not and often have to fall to find out.


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## zenboarder (Mar 5, 2009)

Not much you can do at times... Head for trees or anything that adds contrast. I've been on open runs before and had weather blow in to the point where I could not tell if I was going up or down the hill. It gets quite interesting when you keep falling down and then trying to stand up only to fall down again. Goggles or anything else won't do crap when you can hardly see your hands infront of your face.


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## SkullAndXbones (Feb 24, 2014)

yeah, like everyone else said, keep your knees bent and be ready to absorb any bump even if there isn't one. essentially, expect the unexpected and ride accordingly. if you know you're local mountain well enough you're not likely going to encounter anything on the trails that you haven't seen before. the only difference will be the snow conditions


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## chomps1211 (Mar 30, 2011)

Well,.. As near as I can tell from the short time I was able to ride after making those minor changes to my bindings. I have improved my toe to heel transitions by backing off the highback rotation on my lead foot a little. (...I'm now ever so slightly _less_ parralell to the boards edge than I was before!) I also added one more turn of fwd lean to my front & rear binders. I ride with more lean on the front than the rear, so this was a symmetrical change to the settings. 

I made this change Sat. afternoon because I had my lead bindings rotation cranked to the limit to get it perfectly parallel to my edge & as a result, my highback was sticking in the heel cup when I folded it up or down. (...I've been meaning to do this for a while but kept forgetting!). I'm not at all sure why this helped the way it has. As I mentioned before, I have been riding and progressing with that same setup for the last 1-1/2 or 2 seasons.

I was also definitely feeling a lot more "locked in" and stable when blowin' thru the chop on my heelside!! I found myself holding my heelside turns on some steeper runs thru stuff that had been throwing me on my ass all week! 

Whatever the reason, I'm not experiencing nearly as many "Squirrelly" moments when initiating my heelside turns. This also had the beneficial effect of helping my level of confidence when riding in the Flat Light conditions Sunday morning! :jumping1: 

That said,.. The changes I made are definitely not the _Whole_ solution to the trouble I was having. I still seem to have some balance issues in the flat light. It may be the result of some nerve damage after such a prolonged period with my herniated disc impinging the nerves. (...I ride reg. and my lead, L leg was affected by that nerve impingement longer than my R leg!). So Maybe it's a proprioception sort of thing. 

Anyway,... The adjustments I made to my set up have helped. As has the advice to "ride low & loose!" I may need to do some more intense balance training and see if that in combination with these changes improves things further. 

Thanks for the replies. Any additional suggestions or insights will be appreciated.


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## Motogp990 (Mar 10, 2013)

I don't know if there is a real solution for riding in flat light. Personally, I do pretty much what others have been saying. Go slower, try to stay near some visual queues (trees or trail markers), getting lower to the ground and stick with runs that I know. Aka just deal with it the best I can.

Personally, my goto lens for flat light, nights or rainy days is a clear lens.

I can't even remember when I had my last sunny day, it seems like my local mountain has been foggy, rainy or both the past couple weeks.

I've pretty much just lapped the same couple park runs. literally a 100 times this week. I know that's not fun for everybody, however I'm ok with it since I'm trying to work on my freestyle.

The vis today was super bad and got pelted with rain all session long. FYI when its raining I use a $3 thumb ski-gee, which works great for keeping my gogs clear.


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## kalev (Dec 17, 2013)

Smith blue sensor mirror has been my savior in snow, low-light, fog, late day etc conditions


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## chomps1211 (Mar 30, 2011)

snowklinger said:


> ....I get hella vertigo irl off mountain or whatever and *when there is a bit of mist and flat light I don't even know if I've stopped or not and often have to fall to find out.*


ok,... thought I should update this thread in light of my recent PNW experience!

What I was bitching about in my OP at the start of this thread? That was just me being a "little wussy & whining" about being a _little_ off balance because I couldn't see details in the terrain I was riding. 

What I had absolutely no clue about when I started this thread was the type of real "Vertigo" SK mentions in the above quote! The kind where you can't tell if you're moving up, down, forward, backwards, or sideways! Where your perception of your own body's spacial orientation is so discombobulated that you don't even know you're falling over until your head slams into the snow! :blink:

Wrath picked up a boarder hitching a ride in Baker who gave me the *perfect* analogy for this type of vertigo,...

"Riding inside a ping-pong ball!" 

I encountered that type conditions on two separate days while riding @ Mt. Bachelor. I have never in my life Experienced such a complete and total severing of my own perception of where my body was in relation to my surroundings or even to itself! :blink:

I fell over & over again and each time I wasn't even aware I was falling until I was surprised by my head smacking the ground. 

Eveyone I discussed this with who lives & rides in these conditions regularly kept assuring me that it takes time & practice to get used to it. 

I am not certain I would survive riding in conditions like that long enough to get used to it!! :laugh: Forget the fact that I kept hitting my head hard on the snow because I wasn't even aware that it was fast approaching. The last time I fell I wrenched a muscle in my side that plagued me the entire rest of my trip. (...still hurts like hell right now!) :laugh:

Don't mistake this for more bitching or whining. If nothing else,.. the next time I experience a "little flat light" here in MI? Imma just ride the shit outta it!! cuz that ain't SHIT compared to trying to orient myself inside that ping-pong ball stuff you folks frequently ride out west!! >

As @wrath commented to me on several occasions while riding (...read, facing almost certain injury and/or death)  with him,...

"I've *definitely* had my perception changed as far as Flat light and Vertigo are concerned!" :laugh: :grin:


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## Kenai (Dec 15, 2013)

In Austria last year I was following the guide as closely as possible on a traverse in whiteout fog. I thought we might be traversing above certain death, turns out we were just in a big snowfield. Anyway, I was trying to keep moving forward on his line just by looking at his glowing jacket and at one point I fell over because I was going ... backwards. Yep, I had actually turned slightly into the hill, come to a stop, and started sliding backwards without even realizing it.

We had the same experience a day later in Switzerland on the main runs. At one point my wife put her hand out in front of her (sideways) because she thought there was a snowbank she was riding along. She fell straight over because she was still in the middle of a groomer.

I have ridden in low/flat light conditions plenty of times, but that was a totally new and different experience. Gravity wasn't enough! Sometimes it felt a little cool, usually it was terrifying.


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## Argo (Feb 25, 2010)

You learn to love the conditions. Lol

Flat light is annoying but not vertigo inducing. 

Flat/low light plus fog, wind and snow.... bingo...

One day, again in heavy fog, i went flying off an embankment following my son, he rode away just fine. fortunately @neni and her hubs barely missed landing on me... lol. I am big but I fall so gracefully... in a bomb hole.


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## KIRKRIDER (Mar 18, 2008)

chomps1211 said:


> ok,... thought I should update this thread in light of my recent PNW experience!
> 
> What I was bitching about in my OP at the start of this thread? That was just me being a "little wussy & whining" about being a _little_ off balance because I couldn't see details in the terrain I was riding.
> 
> ...


I know what you mean, in those moments of total whiteout I just stop, knee down and regain the senses while waiting for an opening. But I'm curious what angles are you riding on ? From your description I understand a very high positive on the lead foot? Like 35 or more?


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## chomps1211 (Mar 30, 2011)

KIRKRIDER said:


> ....But I'm curious what angles are you riding on ? From your description I understand a very high positive on the lead foot? Like 35 or more?


I'm not sure where you got that? I ride ducked @ 18°/-12°. 

I do like a lot of fwd _lean_ dialed into the highbacks tho. On the newer Cartels it's something like 6.5 on the front foot & 3.5-4 on the rear.


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## mojo maestro (Jan 6, 2009)

It gets easier..........the more you do it.........best solution...would be to move somewhere you can get more practice......>


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## kalev (Dec 17, 2013)

If its really bad, you can always call it a day and hit the bar and / or hot-tub


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