# East Vail Slide, 4 caught one killed



## linvillegorge

That sucks, but unfortunately it's entirely predictable. That area is very dangerous with complicated terrain and doesn't seem to get the proper respect it deserves, even from people with the experience to know better.

Hopefully the info is wrong and a false alarm.


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## Argo

Info is confirmed. One dead. 3 injured. Dunno who they were yet.


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## killclimbz

Ugh,

7NEWS - 1 dead, 3 injured in East Vail avalanche - Local Story

This is getting ugly.

Vibes to the friends and family of the victim.


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## jdang307

Sad stuff. Argo also announced it here

http://www.snowboardingforum.com/intermountain-us/117729-east-vail-avalanche-2-a.html


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## killclimbz

Sorry Argo. 

Just posted this up in the backcountry forum. I am going to merge these threads there. 

Having just lost a friend to an avalanche this year, this one is just a little too soon. For what ever reason people are pushing it this season. They were getting away with it in December. The dragon is now beginning to make it's presence known. With more snow on the horizon, it is only going to get more touchy. Respect it, please.

Vibes to the friends and family.


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## linvillegorge

Well fuck, I guess it wasn't bad info and a false alarm.


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## killclimbz

Got a little more from the TGR thread on this.



> That group was right behind mine on the way up. I'll tell my story of what I know.
> 
> We went up to the top of Benchmark to enjoy the views and to have a look at the bigger lines. We saw a number of small slides on Marvin's likely triggered as the sun warmed that face. This confirmed our worries about the rapid warm-up making things touchy. As we prepared to drop back to the pumptrack down the ridge, the girl in the group got to the top and said to her group, "I still want to check out NBA." I don't recall any other things said, that just stuck out. We proceeded to ski bighorn down to the bus stop.
> 
> This is what I heard after the fact.
> 
> We heard of the slide when we got on the bus and saw a guy in that group get on the bus. We asked him how his run was and he mentioned a big slide on CDC. I asked if everyone got out, and he said they pulled his buddy out with no pulse and are doing cpr. He said he had no pulse and was purple.
> 
> I told my boss about what happened, and he gave my partner and I's numbers to SAR. They called my partner about 15 minutes ago asking what we knew about how many people were in the group. He thinks it was 4 or 5 people. I remember the girl and 3 guys from the top, and there may have been another hiking up behind them that was with them. Word is, they don't know if they recovered all of the people caught.
> 
> Vibes to everyone involved and friends and family.


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## linvillegorge

FUCK!!!

Unbelievable that anyone survived this:


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## jdang307

Wow. I'm no backcountry expert or even novice. But that photo just sent chills down my spine. It looks huge.


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## killclimbz

Shallow spot, lots of triggers, trees, maybe cliffs, consequence. Sad.


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## boarderaholic

> We heard of the slide when we got on the bus and saw a guy in that group get on the bus. We asked him how his run was and he mentioned a big slide on CDC. I asked if everyone got out, and he said they pulled his buddy out with no pulse and are doing cpr. He said he had no pulse and was purple.


Does anyone else find that weird?


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## linvillegorge

boarderaholic said:


> We heard of the slide when we got on the bus and saw a guy in that group get on the bus. We asked him how his run was and he mentioned a big slide on CDC. I asked if everyone got out, and he said they pulled his buddy out with no pulse and are doing cpr. He said he had no pulse and was purple. [/IMG]
> Does anyone else find that weird?
> 
> 
> 
> People do weird shit when they experience shocking, traumatic events. That's my only explanation.
Click to expand...


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## killclimbz

Lets also keep in mind this is third party information. Not always the most reliable source. Maybe I shouldn't have even copied it over here. I agree it is a bit weird. Though maybe he was useless on sight and they asked him to bring ski patrol/S&R to the site.


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## linvillegorge

killclimbz said:


> Lets also keep in mind this is third party information. Not always the most reliable source. Maybe I shouldn't have even copied it over here. I agree it is a bit weird. Though maybe he was useless on sight and they asked him to bring ski patrol/S&R to the site.


Also a strong possibility. If their whole party was accounted for, no need for everyone to hang around. The initial report is that all three survivors were injured, but no report of the severity. The best call very well may have been to send the guy in the best shape out to get help.


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## snowklinger

fuck













......


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## DiggerXJ

Fuck is right. Dangerous dangerous times right now. East vail isn't playing around, unfortunately this group found out the hard way


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## Argo

The guy was a true lifelong local that we all know. Feel bad for his family and our friends that rode with him today.


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## chomps1211

Damn! So sorry for your loss guys! 

All of you,.. Please be careful out there!


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## killclimbz

This is the most active time of year for avalanche deaths right now.  

We are in the thick of it right now and we have an angry snow pack. This one hits several people I know. I did not know the victim, which not to sound callous but I am thankful for. I couldn't stand to deal with the loss of another friend this way. We haven't even put George to ground yet...

Again, sincerest condolences to his family and friends.


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## linvillegorge

Damn. The ENTIRE thing ripped. Even more unbelievable that anyone survived after seeing this.


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## killclimbz

That is a rough ride for sure.


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## koi

sad day for sure…condolences to the family.


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## AcroPhile

Saw the alert on my phone while I was at work. Still haven't had too much of a chance to read up on the details yet. This is really sad news. RIP.


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## DrnknZag

So bad. I've admired the East Vail chutes before, definitely a high consequence area.

Heard the victim was the founder of Vail's grandson.

Vibes to family, friends, and all you Vail guys affected.


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## t21

Condolences to the family of the victim,RIP. To the others who was injured, heal well.


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## a4h Saint

Was this on resort or in the BC? Condolences...


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## linvillegorge

a4h Saint said:


> Was this on resort or in the BC? Condolences...


Sidecountry. Basically out of bounds backcountry terrain that is easily accessed from the lifts.


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## Argo

It accessed through BC gates. These guys were all expert skiers. Tony was on the Freeride world tour which my son is also on. We ride with the same group and together often. My son rode with them more often while in bounds.... Sad to see it and even more sad that it was in a closer circle than usual. The other 3 are really lucky and I am curious to find out how long of a ride they got. There is little survivability on a big slide out there as it filters through a large Forrest.....

RIP tony and condolences to his family, especially his twin sister who he was very close to..


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## Argo

Couple of videos with him skiing.


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## hikeswithdogs

Yes very sad my condolences to the friends and family.

With that said.......I don't mean to sound like a dick but early season , rotten snow mixed with fresh new snow and skiing near timberline during "considerably dangerous" rated conditions in Colorado.......I'm really at a loss as to what led up to this tragic accident. 

Need more info\facts but from my Monday morning quarterback experience this sounds like it was completely preventable and a factor of poor decisions making.

RIP


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## killclimbz

You are actually stating the obvious. Since 2001 93% of the avalanche victims or their friends triggered the slide that killed them. This is sadly the case with both victims this year. We have met the enemy and the enemy is us...

I should hope they had avalanche experience. Judging by the videos, he was carrying a pack which leads me to believe avalanches were discussed and thought about. Why would you choose to hang your ass out on such an obviously dangerous slope. I have no idea. We as a group do it all the time though. I've certainly made my mistakes. I was lucky that I didn't have to pay such a high price.


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## hikeswithdogs

killclimbz said:


> You are actually stating the obvious. Since 2001 93% of the avalanche victims or their friends triggered the slide that killed them. This is sadly the case with both victims this year. We have met the enemy and the enemy is us...
> 
> I should hope they had avalanche experience. Judging by the videos, he was carrying a pack which leads me to believe avalanches were discussed and thought about. Why would you choose to hang your ass out on such an obviously dangerous slope. I have no idea. We as a group do it all the time though. I've certainly made my mistakes. I was lucky that I didn't have to pay such a high price.


Thanks for the reply Killz , I had hoped I was mistaken and there was some fact\rumor\something I was missing that led to the poor decision to ride those chutes under those conditions.........unfortunately you confirmed that as usual the most obvious answer was the correct one.

How fricken sad


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## Argo

All true. Poor decisions lead to negative outcomes eventually. the Times that it doesn't have negative outcomes is what makes these ones so blatantly and obviously retarded decisions. these chutes have been ridden every day up to that point by many people, he got the bad lotto ticket on that decision. 

As for the not so obvious errors.... I find myself, even as a steeps rookie, having a harder time knowing what exactly is steep... When you ride 20 degree slopes the 15 degree slopes look flat. When you ride 35 degree slopes the 25 degree look flat. When you ride 45 degree slopes everything starts to look flat. I have skinned out to this area once, it's stupid steep and has gnarly runouts and I would not ride it on a safe day. This was the general playground of these guys and a lot of my friends... Like with most deaths of recent, it happens because of a loss of respect for the danger, being comfortable. they all would ride pretty much every day with full avy gear if not in the park, just to be comfortable in it. As unfortunate a loss it is to have friends die people need to learn to take the mtns serious. Don't be afraid to bail on a sweet run.... I hope I never lose my son to something like this, no father should lose a child before they grow old and have a chance to live.


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## hikeswithdogs

Argo said:


> As for the not so obvious errors.... I find myself, even as a steeps rookie, having a harder time knowing what exactly is steep... When you ride 20 degree slopes the 15 degree slopes look flat. When you ride 35 degree slopes the 25 degree look flat. When you ride 45 degree slopes everything starts to look flat.
> 
> they all would ride pretty much every day with full avy gear if not in the park, just to be comfortable in it. As unfortunate a loss it is to have friends die people need to learn to take the mtns serious. Don't be afraid to bail on a sweet run.... I hope I never lose my son to something like this, no father should lose a child before they grow old and have a chance to live.



Great paragraph that puts things in perspective(I can relate to A LOT of that) Argo thank you, this year I plan on riding a lot of BC terrain solo in the mornings before work........I'll look for partners but most likely I'll be alone much of the time on dawn patrols\ascents, I'll be all alone and sticking to VERY low angle terrain in moderate conditions(at worst) but having less than a 100 hours in the BC and no level 1 it makes me(and my girlfriend) kind of nervous......but I'm gonna keep it chill as it's basically an alternative to going to the gym every day to keep my old ass in shape.


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## killclimbz

Just remember when you are out solo, you have to be 100% right 100% of the time. There is absolutely no room for error. You certainly can do it safely, but it takes a lot of discipline. I know UAC does several free awareness classes over the year. Check one out if you haven't already. 

Take a L1 when you get a chance. Worth every penny. Just don't fall asleep in it...


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## Argo

Eagle county had a class planned the night this happened. It was cancelled, everyone i know is way more aware now......


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## killclimbz

I saw that Vail Ski Patrol canceled the presentation. There is always something to be learned from these. It is a lot tougher to take in that lesson when it involves friends. It is a lesson worth learning. Traveling in avalanche terrain is a marathon not a sprint. It is a life long pursuit. There is so much to learn, but it is so rewarding too. 

A mentor of mine Markus Beck, has put up an excellent blog about decision making in avalanche terrain. He has forgotten more about avalanches than I will ever learn. One of the best in the field. This article is geared towards the Colorado snow pack but it is relevant for everyone traveling in the backcountry.

Take your time to read it. It is quite good.

Decision Making in Avalanche Terrain | Alpine World Ascents | AMGA IFMGA certified guides in rock, ice, alpine, ski and AIARE avalanche safety instruction. Asia, Africa, Europe, North and South America, expeditions and adventures. Boulder, Colorado


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## BurtonAvenger

It never hurts to practice walking away.


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## hikeswithdogs

killclimbz said:


> Just remember when you are out solo, you have to be 100% right 100% of the time. There is absolutely no room for error. You certainly can do it safely, but it takes a lot of discipline. I know UAC does several free awareness classes over the year. Check one out if you haven't already.
> 
> Take a L1 when you get a chance. Worth every penny. Just don't fall asleep in it...


Oh yea read the whole Level 1 book twice, been to 1 day classroom course and 1 full day field work course and like 10 "Know before you go presentations" so I'm not totally green but far far far far from being "experienced"

Yea solo ops are 100% safe or stay home, like I said hopefully I can find some other folks who can do early morning trips with me in Big\Little cottonwood.



BurtonAvenger said:


> It never hurts to practice walking away.


I know your probably just being a wiseass but this is actually some of the best advice anyone can give\get.............I've turned back to run the skin track back down or find safer lines multiple times....listen to your gut.


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## linvillegorge

Survivors describe deadly East Vail avalanche | VailDaily.com

"“We weren’t sure if we were going to hit big powder or what was going to happen,” Selig said. “If you see tracks and don’t hear any rumblings, you think you’re probably OK.”

"The second man dropped in and made about 10 turns, and it looked stable, Selig said. He stopped about 20 feet from the photographer and waited."

"“We were talking about where we were going to go if it breaks and what we would do,” Selig said.

Selig had a tree she was going to hug. The second man was going to point his skis and run. The photographer was going to hunker down among some rocks and trees. They had a plan."


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## Flylo

A tree to hug?! Some rocks to hunker down next to?! They had a plan. Hmmm.


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## elstinky

stupid human is stupid.

No really, I completely get the feeling of trying to push the edge just a little bit further. But where I would never push it if my life is on play, I'm just too chicken (or call it realistic) for it, this on the other hand is the typical case of not knowing where to draw the line - likely combined with peer pressure.


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## snowklinger

lets be careful with the lingo we use here. 

This is not an out of context news story.

People who roll with Argo and his boy got caught in it, someone died.

L'gorge's observation is interesting to say the least, but lets keep it classy.


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## Flylo

Indeed, hindsight is hindsight. 

Thoughts to the family and friends. I can't imagine a more terrifying situation to be in. 

I hope he's dropping pillow lines all day long up in the sky. RIP mate.


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## chomps1211

snowklinger said:


> lets be careful with the lingo we use here.
> 
> This is not an out of context news story.
> 
> People who roll with Argo and his boy got caught in it, someone died.
> 
> L'gorge's observation is interesting to say the least, but lets keep it classy.


^AGREED^

...A friend lost a friend here ppl! A _generalized_ debate on the pro's & cons of what people should or shouldn't do in risky BC situations would be better off posted in a separate thread.

Compassion, empathy, condolences & class are what _this_ thread needs!


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## killclimbz

Grabbing onto trees, huddling below obstacles is absolutely shit you do in the backcountry if you are confronted with an avalanche. Lest you forget one of the Tunnel Creek survivors came out unscathed by wedging himself in front of a couple of trees. Anything that lets the flow go by you. I actually don't find these statements well off. Obviously they way under estimated the size potential of the avalanche. It went pretty damn big. Sounds like CAIC is going to classify it as a D3. Large and powerful enough to destroy vehicles and damage structures. 

All this and the bottom line is someone died. I don't know what price you want people to pay for a bad mistake. Is dying enough?

Lets discuss it but lets not be dicks about it.


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## jtg

The guy at Tunnel Creek reacted in the moment. It almost sounds like these guys were deluded into thinking that if it slides, it's no big deal because they can just hug a tree. They almost expected it to slide and didn't care. :icon_scratch:

Sure you do that once you've already made a series of mistakes or bad decisions, but incorporating it into your plan? Hard to understand that.


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## linvillegorge

snowklinger said:


> lets be careful with the lingo we use here.
> 
> This is not an out of context news story.
> 
> People who roll with Argo and his boy got caught in it, someone died.
> 
> L'gorge's observation is interesting to say the least, but lets keep it classy.


This. Definitely not cool to be calling them stupid, etc. The image I posted may have been misleading to some. I didn't mean to disrespect them in anyway, I just found the comments pretty alarming. Then again, you also have to consider that news articles aren't exactly accurate a lot of times - especially on subjects that the reporters are ignorant on such as avalanches - and quotes can most certainly be taken out of context.

killz is right that you have to have a plan if shit goes wrong, but if you feel the need to be having those types of discussions, it's probably a line you want to walk away from. Especially when you're in the sidecountry with easily accessed safe routes down. The problem with a line like that is that if it does go, you're in high consequence terrain.


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## ShredLife

i've been riding bc since about '02, and i've put together a handful of 80-100+ day bc seasons in the PNW - but to be honest, bc in colorado kind of scares the shit out of me.

seems like you have alot more users out there, leading to a bigger difference in experience level; more high-level riders that have only ever ridden resort trying to transition (often too quickly) to the bc; and above anything else - explosive and dicey snowpack that just lurks and lurks. 

i feel like out here the signs are alot easier to read :dunno:. i think if i came out there to ride i'd be so damn paranoid i'd always be second guessing every decision.


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## DiggerXJ

ShredLife said:


> i think if i came out there to ride i'd be so damn paranoid i'd always be second guessing every decision.



Not such a bad thing. Not enough thinking in the BC sometimes. 

Hopefully this is the last death of the season, but that's not realistic. We have a long and dangerous couple months ahead. RIP


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## Argo

Don't take that timeline in the story out of context. your talking about a minute from that conversation to slide occurring. they all knew the pack was on edge by that time and we're just making a plan to salvage their errors. But by that time they were sitting on one of the gnarlyest slopes in east Vail... The death chutes.....

They were all some of the best skiers in big terrain I have met. Rebecca's ranked like #3 in the world for women's big mtn. the photog is just as good a skier as any of them and "man2" is maybe a step below Tony. people make bad decisions, sometimes you die from them. They ride this monster terrain more times a year than most of the members here ride a groomer in their lives. working at the base of a mtn I know I have seen WAY more groomer bombing tourists die than I know of "stupid, wreckless" experienced locals being killed. this particular kids Mom actually got the call in patrol headquarters that day..... He was born and raised on the mtn and died on the mtn. When you do it every day, your numbers seem to come up a little quicker.... 

Everyone that responded to this knew each other as the east Vail riding community is super small, they ride these lines day in and day out, sometimes the worst slides are the ones when there are no signs of visible danger... They go huge and to the ground. 

Unfortunately this last 2' plus we got in 36 hours is super heavy snow and it's going to be extremely dangerous. there was stuff sliding in the afternoon yesterday on 30-35ish degree slopes. Every one of my riding group today has their avy gear on which is rare in bounds.....


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## killclimbz

You always plan for if shit goes wrong. No matter how confident you are with the snow pack. So that wasn't unusual either. Except I am sure they knew how dangerous that slope was.

Shred as to your thoughts. Yes it is pretty sketchy here. No doubt. Everything is skiable in East Vail. Probably not on the same day though. Which is kind of the moral of the story in Colorado. Terrain you can access and ride is different during different times of the year. Right now we have entered the annual going tree line and above is dicey state of riding. Now is the time to enjoy below tree line shots and the goodies that are found there. Not that the terrain there is 100% safe. Certainly not. It is a lot easier to travel safely in. Come March, generally speaking, some more alpine style lines become reasonable to do. Again, not everything. Fortunately you do get lots of clues, it then boils down to if people are going to recognize and listen to them or not. 

There are a ton of bc users. The only place that might have more at any given spot is Utah.

It is definitely a different animal, and I am always amazed at what I can ride in the PNW when I come out. In powder conditions. Plenty of dangers but the avalanche dragon is not such a moody bitch like she is here.


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## Argo

I'm posting from my phone so excuse any out of context words.... Beautiful blue bird day with some super thick snow about knee deep today. Supposed to dump tonight and tomorrow again....


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## linvillegorge

Argo said:


> this particular kids Mom actually got the call in patrol headquarters that day


Fuck...


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## ShredLife

yea, so that's the real difference: out here a pretty basic common sense-based observational approach can get you pretty far, whereas out there you've got a much higher long-term hidden danger ready to pop off at any moment kind of deal. 

:blink:


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## Argo

Just an fyi. If you look up skier deaths, you find few in bounds because they do not pronounce death On hill if at all possible, they pump their chest to the hospital and then pronounce them there.... Way way way more people than you ever hear of in statistics.


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## linvillegorge

ShredLife said:


> yea, so that's the real difference: out here a pretty basic common sense-based observational approach can get you pretty far, whereas out there you've got a much higher long-term hidden danger ready to pop off at any moment kind of deal.
> 
> :blink:


Digging a pit in CO is terrifying. Really starting to think that I may be completely done with mid-winter BC riding. Hasn't been an issue this season, I haven't had time to do much riding at all. I'll be lucky to get out 2-3 days total this month due to business travel.


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## Argo

As for negative comments, the only thing that bothers me is if people are ignorant enough to think these people were stupid and the same mistake will not be made by them.... With all the experience that has been taken in the BC by avalanche in the past 3 years people really need to learn from it and not die themselves or kill someone else. The dangers are real and will take the best and worst, most or least educate. ..... I'm pretty sure last year a very well respected PhD in avalanche science was killed in the big Loveland avalanche. learn people, don't make ignorant blanket statements and think it won't happen to you.


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## killclimbz

Argo said:


> *They ride this monster terrain more times a year than most of the members here ride a groomer in their lives.*


What does this have to do with avalanche knowledge?

The biggest problem we have is that the skier or rider out there is an expert at their spot. They are not experts in determining avalanche danger in avalanche terrain.

I know Rebecca is pretty knowledgeable when it comes to traveling in avalanche terrain. If the photographer is who I think it is, then him too. So I am not saying they didn't know what they were doing. It sounds like quite the opposite. I just don't like the statement that your ability to rip a slope has anything to do with your ability to determine avalanche danger. It doesn't.

Avalanches really don't give a shit. Expert or beginner skier, professional guide or first time out in the bc, they are equal opportunity killers if given the chance. 

Certainly riding big lines in the bc should mean you are pretty good an evaluating the danger. It also makes this accident all that more confusing.


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## ShredLife

to add to that, remember that "you aren't dead until you're warm and dead" - hypothermia extends the length of the period of clinical death, giving more time for resuscitation.


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## linvillegorge

killclimbz said:


> I just don't like the statement that your ability to rip a slope has anything to do with your ability to determine avalanche danger. It doesn't.


Seems like that's actually one of the big problems in the BC. Riding/skiing ability outpaces avy skills.


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## killclimbz

Argo said:


> As for negative comments, the only thing that bothers me is if people are ignorant enough to think these people were stupid and the same mistake will not be made by them.... With all the experience that has been taken in the BC by avalanche in the past 3 years people really need to learn from it and not die themselves or kill someone else. The dangers are real and will take the best and worst, most or least educate. ..... I'm pretty sure last year a very well respected PhD in avalanche science was killed in the big Loveland avalanche. learn people, don't make ignorant blanket statements and think it won't happen to you.


I don't think that at all. If I had of been with them, I could of just as easily fallen into going along with them. The hueristic trap. I certainly hope to learn from this. Just like every accident.

The Sheep Creek avalanche did not have a PHD in avalanche science killed in the slide. Rick was an AAIRE certified instructor for Level 1 courses I believe. I also believe he had completed his Level 3, which is a certified pass/fail course. Unlike L1 or L2. Definitely a very knowledgeable guy who spent a lot of time out there. That was the most formally trained person in the group.

"Experts" do get caught. A forecaster in Alaska was buried and killed a few years ago and last year a forecaster for UAC was killed. Overall though, very, very few professionals are killed. They have a very high survival rate. It is the recreationalist like you are me that are the main victims here.


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## killclimbz

linvillegorge said:


> Seems like that's actually one of the big problems in the BC. Riding/skiing ability outpaces avy skills.


I would call it the biggest problem. Almost everyone who starts going out there knows how to ride very well. They can push themselves into 90% of the terrain available at any given area. That is dangerous when the avalanche skills is still at a green circle...


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## andrewdod

Argo said:


> Just an fyi. If you look up skier deaths, you find few in bounds because they do not pronounce death On hill if at all possible, they pump their chest to the hospital and then pronounce them there.... Way way way more people than you ever hear of in statistics.


Now I don't know squat about BC riding and in reading this thread kind of stupidly trying to understand. But I'll agree with that statement above. For most resorts it's a liability thing. I know for a fact that when someone dies in a casino (unless it's fairly obvious they are dead) they always officially die in the ambulance or at the hospital.


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## CassMT

such an odd and poorly written article, clearly only a fraction of the actual story..i hope someone will do a better, more informative job of it

so he (apparently) wasn't buried?


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## linvillegorge

CassMT said:


> such an odd and poorly written article, clearly only a fraction of the actual story..i hope someone will do a better, more informative job of it
> 
> so he (apparently) wasn't buried?


CAIC will do a full report. They'll publish it as soon as it's finished. Some take longer than others.


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## Argo

When I personally call some experienced I don't say it just based on ski/board ability level. If they are riding out of bounds or BC I would not classify someone as experienced unless that have avy training, knowledge of the terrain and can ride it comfortably. wether people use their brains or follow the crew is where things seem to go wrong in the comfortable zone you ride often... These chutes for them. 

Last year another local died on Vail pass on a avy that slide after it had been ridden and sledded on all day. I had about 6 other friends riding the same face all day doing sled laps.... It slid on like run #100 of that day... Just got too comfortable and didn't reassess after the day's conditions changed. 

Either way....

RiP Tony 
A segment of Vail will learn from your final shred day. So far 3 of our friends have signed up for avy courses and gotten the basic essentials since Tuesday.


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## BurtonAvenger

killclimbz said:


> *Since 2001 93% of the avalanche victims or their friends triggered the slide that killed them. This is sadly the case with both victims this year. We have met the enemy and the enemy is us...*


This is a statement *EVERYONE *should read and understand. 



hikeswithdogs said:


> I know your probably just being a wiseass but this is actually some of the best advice anyone can give\get.............I've turned back to run the skin track back down or find safer lines multiple times....listen to your gut.


Nah, that statement is an actual piece of advice I give all the kids I know that are rushing into the BC to get that "pow" shot for their sponsor. I am not looking forward to the day I get the call one of my friends is dead. 



killclimbz said:


> The biggest problem we have is that the skier or rider out there is an expert at their sport. They are not experts in determining avalanche danger in avalanche terrain.
> 
> 
> Avalanches really don't give a shit. Expert or beginner skier, professional guide or first time out in the bc, they are equal opportunity killers if given the chance.


This, this is so spot on. 

One of the biggest issues I'm noticing from an observational stand point is that these avy's that are taking out full groups are a result of the group pushing it and not having a rational voice of reason. Whether this is something that gets neglected by the individuals or something that needs to be added to the curriculum when taking any avy course it needs to be addressed.


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## FL_Boarder

It's just the risk some of us are willing to take. I know I've thought about it every time I've walked through those access gates. RIP


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## marlo_df

Condolences to Family and Friends. Sad.


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## mhaas

> It's just the risk some of us are willing to take. I know I've thought about it every time I've walked through those access gates. RIP


With resort gate access, Its more like a young mans feeling of invincibility and thinking that its not gonna happen _me_. And even if it does someone will rescue me since I can see the chair lift from the ridge im about to drop off of into snow I know nothing about. 

I'd gamble that 75 percent of people leaving the gate don't truly believe they are at risk of dying in an avalanche. 

People definitely need to chill out with their line selections. But everyone with a go pro is a film maker and everyone with a slr is a photographer and every shot has to be EPIC and SICK. Mellow slopes in fresh snow are fun too. Eventually the conditions will right and youll be able to ride steeper lines. The mountains aren't going anywhere.


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## killclimbz

It doesn't help that even slopes that are teetering on the edge let people get away with it. Sometimes for days. Which sounds like from Argo's description happened here. I am sure the first people to do CDC probably did a slope cut. If that had of popped there would have been wide eyes and a fyck that attitude. Persistant slabs don't react very often to those measures as we well know. You can dig around, do pit tests and they still give you no warnings. Then you jump on a slope and they go huge and well above you. 

Argo, to your point on avalanche bowl last season. That was a classic deep persistent slab. We had about two weeks before that week started where just about everything was a go. I did almost all of the alpine lines at Bert multiple times. Confidence was high about going for bigger objectives with more complex terrain and higher consequence. We were set to do the Silver Couloir on Buffalo in Summit. A true classic. 

Then it started snowing again and we got something like 30" that week. Snow does not like rapid change and that is the epitome of rapid change. The Silver is steep, long (3k vert maybe), little in the way of escape or safe zones and it ends in strainer trees. I sent an email out saying it was a bad idea, convince me otherwise and everyone else agreed. No one even thought about doing it, consequence was too high. 

The day after we were going to do the Silver was the day of the Avalanche Bowl accident. At that point I had seen enough. It was mid winter conditions to me at that point and went back riding below treeline where that persistent slab was not very present.

The next week was Sheep Creek. That was a rough two week stretch. 

When CAIC starts harping on persistent and deep persistent slab issues, you should be very scared. You just can't tell when they are going to go. When they do they go huge and are stone cold killers. Airbag, avalung, whatever. You are the .05 percentile if you survive. If you don't know that the slab doesn't exist on a slope, especially at or over 34 degrees I would just skip it. Fortunately of you are out in an area frequently you may know paths that are cleaned out and may not have that problem. That is where digging down can give you solid info. 

Hopefully this persistent slab problem will start to back off over the next two to three weeks. I have no idea right now. It may become a deep persistent slab that will gives us fits through March. Some of the largest slides I have seen are during those conditions. 

Also, I don't want to say thay East Vail is a no go. From the pictures I've seen there are a lot of good bets back there. CDC is probably the most dangerous and high consequence line in the area. You don't have to commit to it either. Easily avoidable.


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## killclimbz

The final report from CAIC is up. Worth your time to read it.

CAIC


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## BigmountainVMD

killclimbz said:


> The final report from CAIC is up. Worth your time to read it.
> 
> CAIC


Watching that video is freaking crazy. The guy standing next to the crown face... it's twice as tall as he is! Holy balls.


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## killclimbz

Huge crown. I am actually quite amazed that it wasn't four dead after seeing the details of the path and terrain they were caught in. This could have been much worse.


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