# Heelside Turns on Steeps



## trapper (Jan 15, 2013)

So I'm at the point where I'd say I'm a solid intermediate rider (freeride not freestyle). I took a few laps with an instructor back in early December and it really helped a lot with understanding the use of the front foot in turn initiation. Previously I had been using my back foot a bit too much for turns. I'm at a point where I can cruise pretty fast on groomers of moderate steepness and am even laying down some actual carves (not the super deep ones with hand drags or anything) when I try. 

So what's weird is that on a blue and I try to actually carve and pick up speed, heelside feels natural and smooth. Toeside turns had been an issue early this year but after implementing the instructor's advice these have actually become smooth too. In reality, I am now finding toeside turns and carves to come more naturally on steeper terrain than heelside.

Which brings me to the problem. When I ride a black diamond, I am pretty comfortable making my turns except when I hit an icy patch or the steepest spot (oftentimes both things at the same time) going into a heelside turn. What happens is I'm not absorbing the speed and my boards chatters violently and will sometimes put me directly on my ass. 

I've tried bending my knees more but that doesn't seem to help. I'm wondering if it has something to do with proper fore and aft movements going into, riding through and coming out of the heelside turn. Obviously I'm going to seek the advice of an instructor if I can't solve this on my own, but I was just wondering what advice any of you more experienced guys/gals can provide.

Thanks for any feedback.

TLDR: Heelside board chatter on steeps, how to shift bodyweight properly to avoid it. Toeside is not a problem, nice and smooth.


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## ksup3erb (Jan 25, 2013)

Look in the direction you're going on heel side. You're looking down hill. You wash out every time. 

I'm assuming your knees are staying nice and flexible. 

I had the same problem.


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## trapper (Jan 15, 2013)

ksup3erb said:


> Look in the direction you're going on heel side. You're looking down hill. You wash out every time.
> 
> I'm assuming your knees are staying nice and flexible.
> 
> I had the same problem.


I usually do keep my eyes ahead of me (in the direction of travel) but when the board starts chattering I think I do instinctively look in the downhill direction. I will definitely try to be more conscientious of this but I'm still pretty sure I'm doing something else wrong too.


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## ksup3erb (Jan 25, 2013)

I think we open up when this happens. So a matter of staying parallel over the board and in line with the direction of movement. Not just eyes.


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## Elit3PwnZ0r (Jan 9, 2014)

I find a lot of times when I'm getting chatter its because my weight is back. This also happens to be most frequent when I am going into a heelside turn down a steeper section. My body just wants to hang back while I'm making the turn. I'm about the same level as you so wouldn't be surprised if that has a little to do with it too!


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## Donutz (May 12, 2010)

I have had exactly the same problem, and probably for the same reason. In my case I've discovered two issues. First, while my toeside turns are nice wide even turns, my heelsides are much sharper -- basically more of a braking maneuver. When I've forced myself to open up the heelside turn, I get that "fear of speed" feeling, so there's obviously some mental issues there.

The second problem is that I've not been shifting my weight back over the course of the turn. With my weight always forward, of course the back end can break free.

If you can do some turns on some relatively untouched snow and then look back at your tracks, you'll be able to see if you're having the same problem.


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## PorkCereal (Dec 28, 2013)

Had the same problem yesterday. Hit the same spot heel side that was icey and had a small hill where I would catch few inches of air as I cut back heel side. Resulted in chatter, a puff of snow and me on my arse.


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## ksup3erb (Jan 25, 2013)

trapper said:


> So I'm at the point where I'd say I'm a solid intermediate rider (freeride not freestyle). I took a few laps with an instructor back in early December and it really helped a lot with understanding the use of the front foot in turn initiation. Previously I had been using my back foot a bit too much for turns. I'm at a point where I can cruise pretty fast on groomers of moderate steepness and am even laying down some actual carves (not the super deep ones with hand drags or anything) when I try.
> 
> So what's weird is that on a blue and I try to actually carve and pick up speed, heelside feels natural and smooth. Toeside turns had been an issue early this year but after implementing the instructor's advice these have actually become smooth too. In reality, I am now finding toeside turns and carves to come more naturally on steeper terrain than heelside.
> 
> ...


I'd be curious to learn what you were trying to fix toe side and what the instructor had you do.


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## atr3yu (Feb 15, 2012)

Lol..... I do the same as well and I think its very similar to donutz. I am stronger in my heel side generally but when its steep I use them as heavy speed checks, chatter and end up sitting on the hill. I bet if I went through my go pro footage from just one day I probably did it like 10 - 13 times.


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## trapper (Jan 15, 2013)

Donutz said:


> my heelsides are much sharper -- basically more of a braking maneuver. When I've forced myself to open up the heelside turn, I get that "fear of speed" feeling, so there's obviously some mental issues there.


I don't think I have the fear of speed feeling, especially on heelside. In fact when I pick up speed on a heelside carve on a blue I love that feeling. When I try to recreate this movement on a black it doesn't work this way. But now that I think of it, I do wonder if I'm accidentally braking somewhat. 

This actually makes me think through the physics of this a bit. If I'm not moving fast enough in my direction of travel, then the gravity will pull the board down the fall line more and cause that back end to skid right? Maybe the reason I don't have this problem on milder grades is because that gravitational effect obviously isn't as strong on the back end of the board. That would lead me to believe that I need to weight forward more going into and throughout that first part of the turn.



Donutz said:


> The second problem is that I've not been shifting my weight back over the course of the turn. With my weight always forward, of course the back end can break free.


But then there is this. If I'm leaning too far into the turn then my edge hold breaks free and the board can wash out on me. I had an inclination that this might be the problem because I'm pretty sure I'm staying leaned toward the tip of the board with knees bend when I'm making these turns. 

Of course this runs contrary to what Elit3PwnZ0r said above but it's possible that his and my problems aren't exactly the same. 

This is difficult to do through words but I figured I'd give it a shot before paying for an instructor. I think I'm going to try more of a deliberate aft movement in the beginning of the turn while also trying to keep in mind my body's alignment to the board and where I'm looking as well (not downhill).


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## speedjason (May 2, 2013)

I find if I stack a lot of weight especially like sitting into the corner I would wash out easily if the snow is icy.
try add some forward lean on the high back to get the edge up more and more weight over the board?


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## trapper (Jan 15, 2013)

ksup3erb said:


> I'd be curious to learn what you were trying to fix toe side and what the instructor had you do.


Well I just wasn't comfortable making toeside turns, especially in steep terrain. He rode behind me for exactly 4 turns then broke down my life story in complete, accurate detail. lol

Seriously though he just showed me how to really push your front knee more outward towards the tip of the board to really get a feel for what weight forward means and how to really flex the board torsionally with my front foot. You can read it all day long and still not get it, but when he showed me in person and critiqued me while I did it, it made a huge difference. 

He had me do an entire run of garlands, mostly on my toeside and I could feel where I had been relying too much on my back foot before. That old habit still creeps up on my now and again, but I'm conscious of it now.


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## ksup3erb (Jan 25, 2013)

trapper said:


> Well I just wasn't comfortable making toeside turns, especially in steep terrain. He rode behind me for exactly 4 turns then broke down my life story in complete, accurate detail. lol
> 
> Seriously though he just showed me how to really push your front knee more outward towards the tip of the board to really get a feel for what weight forward means and how to really flex the board torsionally with my front foot. You can read it all day long and still not get it, but when he showed me in person and critiqued me while I did it, it made a huge difference.
> 
> He had me do an entire run of garlands, mostly on my toeside and I could feel where I had been relying too much on my back foot before. That old habit still creeps up on my now and again, but I'm conscious of it now.


Cool.

Your washing out problem on heelside on steeper runs is similar to my problem on toe side steeps now. I'm having a helluva time stacking over the toeside edge even though I think I know what I should be doing. It's frustrating.


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## trapper (Jan 15, 2013)

ksup3erb said:


> Your washing out problem on heelside on steeper runs is similar to my problem on toe side steeps now. I'm having a helluva time stacking over the toeside edge even though I think I know what I should be doing. It's frustrating.


I'm also wondering if part of the problem is that I feel more fluid on my toeside edge now and not as rigid, helping me to absorb the energy transfer and any bumps, etc more easily. Now that I'm thinking about this more, even though my knees are bent and I'm trying to stay loose on my heelside edge, I think that I am holding them more rigidly.


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## trapper (Jan 15, 2013)

Everyone, thanks for you help and suggestions. I have enough things to try next time out to see if that helps. If not, then I'm going to bite the bullet and do another lesson.


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## CassMT (Mar 14, 2013)

this is one of the trickier situations in riding. if the hill is steep and icy and maybe moguly there is an extremely fine line where you are gonna get it right and make a nice clean carve, made finer if your weight: effective edge:speed ratio is less than ideal. maybe when you go from toe to heel, in that moment when you are pointed strait falline you are getting back on it, throwing it around too fast, digging in too hard cuz your weight is uphill and you chatter out (?)

sometimes the conditions and your skill are such that you just have to slow it down a bit and find that edge, and then work your way up. sometimes truly icy conditions are gonna make it so that ratio i mention above make it 'impossible' to make a clean carve on ice and you just have to stay on your board and forget about a pretty line in the snow. personally i will do always choose an uglyass turn to ending up on my ass.


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## aiidoneus (Apr 7, 2011)

The common problem I see with people's heelside turns when carving is bending at the waist. This causes the center of mass to shift towards the middle of the board instead of the heelside edge where you want it. As you come across the hill this causes the board to slip and break free. Which is kind of what I think is happening to you.

Unlike a toeside carve where you can really roll your hips and knees forward and keep the weight centred over the edge. Heelside you have to lean back into the hill as you compress at the start of your turn to really get a solid edge early.

The common drill to work on this is called Super Man(Toeside) / Frankenstein (Heelside). As you are on your toeside, you roll the hips forward and let your arms go behind you like you are flying as superman. Then as you switch to heelside you put your hands out in front of you like Frankenstein and lean back into the hill.


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## wrathfuldeity (Oct 5, 2007)

I think on heelside, the tendency is to sit too low and for too long....thus resulting in not being able to get out of the backseat fast enough and the board ends up being too transverse. Its natural to do this...partly due to fear of speed, fear of ice...hearing the chatter...but by that time its too late and we wash out on our ass. 

So I've try to remedy this by being more anticipatory....by seeing and anticipating the ice and trying to keep my leading shoulder pointed down the fall line, the nose within 45 degrees of the fall line,...while sucking up the rear foot/tail...that is...trying to stay more in the front seat....and lighten up my feet....kind of floating over the ice and aiming for a patch in which to get an edge in or use terrain in which to bank a turn off to help the lack of edge.


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## Bparmz (Sep 7, 2011)

aiidoneus said:


> The common problem I see with people's heelside turns when carving is bending at the waist. This causes the center of mass to shift towards the middle of the board instead of the heelside edge where you want it. As you come across the hill this causes the board to slip and break free. Which is kind of what I think is happening to you.
> 
> Unlike a toeside carve where you can really roll your hips and knees forward and keep the weight centred over the edge. Heelside you have to lean back into the hill as you compress at the start of your turn to really get a solid edge early.
> 
> The common drill to work on this is called Super Man(Toeside) / Frankenstein (Heelside). As you are on your toeside, you roll the hips forward and let your arms go behind you like you are flying as superman. Then as you switch to heelside you put your hands out in front of you like Frankenstein and lean back into the hill.


This^

To reduce the chatter, also try thinking about bringing your center of mass closer to your heel edge by getting lower, but *do not* bend at the waist. Keep your back straight


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## KIRKRIDER (Mar 18, 2008)

trapper said:


> So I'm at the point where I'd say I'm a solid intermediate rider (freeride not freestyle). I took a few laps with an instructor back in early December and it really helped a lot with understanding the use of the front foot in turn initiation. Previously I had been using my back foot a bit too much for turns. I'm at a point where I can cruise pretty fast on groomers of moderate steepness and am even laying down some actual carves (not the super deep ones with hand drags or anything) when I try.
> 
> So what's weird is that on a blue and I try to actually carve and pick up speed, heelside feels natural and smooth. Toeside turns had been an issue early this year but after implementing the instructor's advice these have actually become smooth too. In reality, I am now finding toeside turns and carves to come more naturally on steeper terrain than heelside.
> 
> ...



High binding angles, (18 deg. and up) and both positive, will give you more or less the same kind of motion / rotation toe side and heel side. Once you perfect your tech you can go back to more open angles. But I find that the right binding angles are the most helpful factor when carving. Makes sense?


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## thedru13 (Jan 4, 2014)

Still trying to figure some of this out myself. I am pushing my stance out a bit wider to get my knees to bend more. I found that while riding more aggressive I was not bending my knees enough or not sitting was leaning over. I needed to use my knees as shock absorbers more. It killed some of the chatter and the board felt a lot more solid. So my legs/knees absorbed a lot of that chatter. You have received a lot better responses but I am no expert in this area just another thought as to what helped me out.


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## MelC (Mar 6, 2012)

I have this exact problem too. I am generally fine up to double black on the ice coast and then I end up making commas with my heelside washout. Toeside is fine. I can usually hold on and not land on my butt but it is not what anyone would call pretty. I am relatively certain it is due to not stacking properly over the board since it usually grabs on again when I think to "Frankenstein" as someone put it above (we learned it as push/pull). I am sure some of it is psychological too as when you do your toeside you are close to and focussed more on the hill next to you and on your heel side you just have the sheer drop of it staring up at you...I suspect this is why my form isn't particularly good - too much distraction. I am going to try the suggestion of looking along the traverse line instead of the drop and emphasize the Frankenstein pose a bit more and see how that helps. The good news is that it doesn't get much worse than a double black covered in hardpack with icy patches so I should be in good stead if I can just master it at my local hill.


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## t21 (Dec 29, 2010)

Last season, my neighbor who is a instructor showed me the way to deal with my heelside turns on a double black chute runs especially when its been moguled up by skiers. His technique was as you make your heelside turn you lean a bit forward and stay centered as you are traversing with knees bend BUT stay relax and point your board uphill. The moment you feel your going up, you initiate your toeside turn. This really works for me especially the relax part because i tend to rush my turns. The part where he showed me the uphill travel does slows you down enough to engage your toeside to make your turn.


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## trapper (Jan 15, 2013)

Right on thanks for all the feedback guys! When I'm back on a proper keyboard I want to respond to some individual points but I think taken together this all should help me figure it out. There does seem to be a fine line on when to shift forward to go back into the toe turn and how to lean with proper posture to get this right. Seems to be some common themes in all the responses. Makes sense now why I can do this well on blues but not blacks, just have to get the timing and technique exactly right since the margin for error is smaller. 

Thanks again everyone.


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## trapper (Jan 15, 2013)

So to update, several of your guys' tips seemed to help. I was out yesterday and definitely kept the heelside chattering to a minimum (only noticed it on a few occasions early in the day) and had no slide outs on steeps. 

The things that helped the most were keeping my eyes focused more in the direction of travel and not the fall line, weighting slightly more on the back foot at the start of the heelside turn and leaning forward to initiate the toeside turn a moment sooner (unless I was committing to riding on the heel edge longer). I also tried to be more conscious of stacking my center up over the heel edge better.

It wasn't perfect, but definitely a marked improvement. Thanks again for all the help.


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## KIRKRIDER (Mar 18, 2008)

trapper said:


> So to update, several of your guys' tips seemed to help. I was out yesterday and definitely kept the heelside chattering to a minimum (only noticed it on a few occasions early in the day) and had no slide outs on steeps.
> 
> The things that helped the most were keeping my eyes focused more in the direction of travel and not the fall line, weighting slightly more on the back foot at the start of the heelside turn and leaning forward to initiate the toeside turn a moment sooner (unless I was committing to riding on the heel edge longer). I also tried to be more conscious of stacking my center up over the heel edge better.
> 
> It wasn't perfect, but definitely a marked improvement. Thanks again for all the help.


Also try and point your feet fingers up when on a heel side.


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## ksup3erb (Jan 25, 2013)

trapper said:


> So to update, several of your guys' tips seemed to help. I was out yesterday and definitely kept the heelside chattering to a minimum (only noticed it on a few occasions early in the day) and had no slide outs on steeps.
> 
> The things that helped the most were keeping my eyes focused more in the direction of travel and not the fall line, weighting slightly more on the back foot at the start of the heelside turn and leaning forward to initiate the toeside turn a moment sooner (unless I was committing to riding on the heel edge longer). I also tried to be more conscious of stacking my center up over the heel edge better.
> 
> It wasn't perfect, but definitely a marked improvement. Thanks again for all the help.


Cool. Good news.


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## trapper (Jan 15, 2013)

KIRKRIDER said:


> Also try and point your feet fingers up when on a heel side.


Thanks I'll try to keep that in mind as well.


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