# Help with the Steeps



## dharmashred (Apr 16, 2009)

I've been trying to conquer more challenging runs and am having some issues on the super steeps. There are alot of black runs I can ride now and consistently link turns (no sideslip/snowcat/snowremoval bullshit), as long as my turns are wide and complete. I've made it a point to challenge myself every time I go and have started to take backside runs (I’m in fucking *love*) and doubles. 

On Sunday I rode June for the first time and at the end of a phenomenal day of exploring off-piste tree runs, the lifts were closed and I had to ride back down to the parking lot (this was my intention though), the only way to get down short of unstrapping and hiking down. I took "the face" down, it's a super steep and ungroomed double. There was a lip, not a big one, but still daunting for me and there didn't seem to be a way to avoid it. I didn't overthink it and didn't hesitate, I just dropped in and made it over the lip and landed, not sure how, sheer dumb luck I suppose. After that I went for my toeside and I _know_ I wasn't bending, but that time I was in the process of bringing the board across the fall line so I fell, but pretty much still standing upright looking up the mountain (because it was so steep there wasn't far to fall facing up the mountain). Then the problem begins.... I went for my heelside and I don't know what the fuck happened, I really don't know how I fell, but I ended up tumbling and sliding on my back head first down the mountain.  There were mounds of powder so i wasn't sliding too hardcore and they and I was able to get myself turned around and eventually stop. I didn't let myself freak out, got up and went for it again. And fell...again and again. I pretty much tumbled the whole fucking way down the hill in increments, I don't believe I solidly linked a single turn (though not for lack of trying). I kept trying and kept fucking falling . There was a point where I should have just falling leaf'd it, but I refused to do that. It was less embarrassing to me to just tumble down :laugh::laugh:

I know I need to get low, bend and lean into the mountain, still struggling with that. I'm more confident making my toeside turns on the steeps than I am my heels. On my toes I feel I'm doing better at completing the turn and bringing the board back around, but when it's time to go back to my heels, the board seems to get away from me, starts going to fast and I'm not able to make it back around on my heels so I either skid and pull the brakes or force the next turn. When it's super bumpy, I try to pick the right lines between the bumps if it's at all possible, but this also causes me to sometimes force a turn before it's ready. I also noticed i'm leaning waaay to far back when going into the heelside turn, which causes me to sit down...well, on the steeps, more like sliding there's not really any sitting. 

What tips/suggestions do you guys have on this? I'd like to get some overall suggestions and tips, and also, really concerned about my toe to heel transitions. Once I come back across on my toes and start transitioning to heel, the board starts to get too fast for my comfort level, once that happens, it just goes from bad to worse. Do I need to dig the board in more for a sharper edge for more control? Also, when faced with a really modest cornice, what is the best/safest way negotiate it without sending yourself launching down the hill?

Damn this is long! I need to work on whittling this shit down...especially if I want someone to actually read this and render some assistance.


----------



## alecdude88 (Dec 13, 2009)

all i can really say for going toe to heel is really kick your foot out to get that transfer.
and like you said you want to almost be like your laying down on the mountain because if your not your center of balance will be off. 
im more of a park rat but ive done a few double diamonds so i hope this helped.


----------



## wrathfuldeity (Oct 5, 2007)

Sounds like you had great pow to go for it. May be your're not getting on the nose and committing then really sitting or crouching. Kind of like getting tall, raise your shoulder to get your nose going down the fall line then quickly commit or sink on the nose and then crouch. :dunno:


----------



## H2O(s) (Dec 4, 2009)

I know exactly what you mean about trying to go heelside to toeside and getting stuck pointed down the hill. Back on my first day out West I rode up to a double, and had the same thing happen. I felt like it was because I didn't fully commit to the turn, either my body made the turn, but my legs refused or vice versa. It's hard to describe what finally made it click, but all I can say is keep yourself on the steeps until it clicks. Eventually you'll link a turn that feels right, and from then on it's all down hill *pun*.

All I can really say is what a buddy told me awhile back, and that is to pick your turn, and commit 100%. This worked for me. Make complete hop turns like a skiier, but reduce your "hop" more each time until you are just getting light on your feet and using your body to change edges and the direction of your board. Once you get to that point, you can focus on making the edge-change fluid, and with a bit of carve rather than just abrupt hops.

Once again, this is what did it for me. It may not work for you or anyone else, for that matter because learning something like this is all about feel and making yourself comfortable anyway. The worst that can happen is that it won't work for you, and you can try someone else's advice.


----------



## AZred60 (Jan 15, 2008)

A big problem I see a lot of people having on the steeps, is that they keep all their weight on their back foot. You really need to try to even it out. Also, when you are dealing with pow and moguls, try to actually pop up a little bit when you make your turns. You will be able to flip edge to edge quicker and with more confidence


----------



## SnowProRick (Jan 13, 2009)

AZred60 said:


> A big problem I see a lot of people having on the steeps, is that they keep all their weight on their back foot. You really need to try to even it out. Also, when you are dealing with pow and moguls, try to actually pop up a little bit when you make your turns. You will be able to flip edge to edge quicker and with more confidence


Exactly! Weight needs to be about 50-50 front to back. Something that will help keep your weight centered is to make sure your board (duh), hips and shoulders are all parallel with the snow. Many people with issues on steeps will level their shoulders with the horizon, this puts them in the back seat and makes turning harder.

This shoulder alignment is also important when riding the pipe.

--rick


----------



## AZred60 (Jan 15, 2008)

Good call man, body alignment is key, just as in any other sport. Also I should add that speed will actually help you a bit with your turns


----------



## arsenic0 (Nov 11, 2008)

Good info once again!

Not to hijack Dharma's thread..but i have a somewhat related question that im sure Snowolf can relate too knowing Meadows.

Im not really sure how to describe it...basically if if im in a bowl of sorts, like Daisy where it slants \__/ more or less across as you get lower...whats the best way to cut back down the hill? Say im on the far right side on my toe edge and doing a heel edge would mean basically leaning back a large amount to be able to get my heel edge because my toe edge is dug in flat to that / slope.

What i find myself doing now, is instead of necessarily leaning waaaay back to get that heel edge is to really lay back on the toe edge and try to nearly flat base it to keep from cutting up the hill and instead sort of forward sliding down a bit to get somewhere i can get a more downward direction...


----------



## jlm1976 (Feb 26, 2009)

I just have a few things to add to Snowolf's advice. As he said, your weight is probably going back on heelside and you just can't get away with that on steeps. I would dial it back, riding some steepish trails you are very comfy on and as he said focus on keeping those shoulders and hips parallel to the slope. Also, as Rick hinted at, the superpipe is a great way to practice this. Ride up and down each wall focusing on keeping your shoulders and hips aligned with the wall. If you feel adventurous, try dropping in from the deck. As you roll over the edge you have to drop that front shoulder to get the board and your body parallel to the wall. It's very similar to a turn on very steep terrain. 
Also some things to think about(as if you don't have enough already) -
Where do you do most of your breaking in your turns? At the beginning, middle or end? On steeper terrain, it's important to do the bulk of your braking at the top and middle of your turn. Try riding some blue's as if they are steep and keep track of where you are spraying snow in each turn. It should getting sprayed to the side with minimal spray going downhill. The secret to doing this is the extension Snowolf was talking about in the middle of your turn. 
Also, on steeper terrain your backfoot isn't along for the ride anymore. Actively extend your back leg through the whole turn to pressure the tail and control your speed. It isn't an aggressive move like kicking it out. It's more of a strong, slow extension directed at pressuring the edge. 
Get comfy with this stuff on terrain you know you can ride then go back to tackle the one that kicked your butt. There is an old phrase in teaching "Old task, new terrain or new task, old terrain."


----------



## dharmashred (Apr 16, 2009)

Damn Snowolf, you’re like Johnny 5 with the input! :laugh::laugh:

I’ll have to read and reread this numerous times to fully digest the information enough to begin to put it to use. The fear of leaning in and sitting down definitely applies when it’s steep, I feel myself standing straight up, working against myself and against the mountain.

I find it interesting that I now find myself struggling with my heelside on the steeps as opposed to my toeside, your speculation makes perfect sense as this is exactly what I feel beneath me. After all the other nonsense, my fucking toeside has the nerve to be stroner than my heels :laugh: 

I’ll work on the dynamic skidded turn drill, if I can get that solid on a steep blue, then eventually after practice it will translate on the steeps.



Snowolf said:


> Without watching, I suspect that you are initiating your heel side turn before allowing the board to cross the fall line because you fear leaning "down hill" to make the edge change. This is why you are building up so much speed.


This is exactly what I’m doing, it will just take more practice to get it right. Every time it happens it never ends well…

Everyone has said so far to lean forward, does this still apply on a pow steep? In pow I lean back a little and keep the nose up, is this different now because it’s a steep? Sounds like I’m just going to need to learn the basic movements first, then adjust them as necessary for the terrain.

Wrath – It was a great pow day for it and I was inspired by the beautiful tree runs I did to just go for it. Thanks to the pow the only “injury” is some whiplash.

Jlm1976 - I only just started to hit the steep doubles the past few weeks and I work my way up throughout the day, warm up, then go steeper and steeper as the day goes on. If I have a good run on a steep, then I take it up a notch. Some very insightful person ^ reminded me to get out of my comfort zone! Half-pipe is a different story though, I’m not comfortable dropping in the half-pipe, I don’t think I have any business in there (and don’t want to), so out of respect I won’t do it. My son always wants me to take him when we ride together, but I just tell him he’s got to wait for his coach and the team (he’s gonna be a little park rat ). I don’t want to fuck my shit or someone else’s shit up. In terms of breaking, my toeside turns are really solid now, but some of my heels I tend to break or skid in the middle of the turn, I’ve been paying more attention to that trying to lay down nice clean carves. I watch a lot of the advanced riders, I can see what they do differently, it’s just hard to do myself right now, but I’m just starting out. I definitely kick it out, seems like my old bad habits have started again , as you said “Old task, new terrain”. 
This almost feels like starting all over again, except less frustrating and more terrifying. 

As always, thanks everyone for the great advice, it’s awesome to see so many people from all over helping each other! I love this forum!

Peace and love!


----------



## wrathfuldeity (Oct 5, 2007)

"Everyone has said so far to lean forward, does this still apply on a pow steep? In pow I lean back a little and keep the nose up, is this different now because it’s a steep? Sounds like I’m just going to need to learn the basic movements first, then adjust them as necessary for the terrain."



You will have to adjust how much you get on the nose according to the type of pow...if light fluffy and deep, mashed chow, packed cold, packed warm and if its tracked/chopped or fresh. Also according to the stiffness, lenght of the nose; and taper and softness of the tail.

In a sense you already have the basic movements, its about being more confident, experimenting with the how much you bend your knees, how much you get on the nose, billy goat turns in a chute verses shallow turns off the cliffs in an open bowl...so its more mental, e.g., terrain reading, picking lines, adjusting for snow and slope conditions...and the trifecta of performance....i.e, arousal, confidence of skills and anxiety management.

"Wrath – It was a great pow day for it and I was inspired by the beautiful tree runs I did to just go for it. Thanks to the pow the only “injury” is some whiplash."

If it was that type of pow, i.e., relatively light, deep and steep...you probablly could have bombed it and just speed checked with shallow turns. You were likely too shy and thought you needed to do complete turns to traverse and thus ended up slowing down too much...almost to a stop and were likely standing too tall and then falling down and tumbling...on that type of pow you just bomb with nose up and do big slashes and enter the white room...keep going and pray there isn't a tree or a 20 foot drop you didn't notice.


----------



## sidewall (Nov 6, 2009)

To help with the heel to toe transitions, try some core exercises, that really helped me. As for moguls, there's lots of good skier articles on how to ski them lol :laugh: The one I read said to turn into the base of the mogul then pop off/around it to the next one. It actually worked really well.


----------



## jlm1976 (Feb 26, 2009)

*Check theses out...might help*

These are some "tip videos" from the PSIA/AASI website. The first one deals with keeping your shoulders alligned with the slope and the second deals with the terrain you originally posted. Hope they help. 


PSIA - AASI

PSIA - AASI


----------



## sidewall (Nov 6, 2009)

Snowolf- the perpendicularity- are they referring to keeping your upper body perpendicular to the pitch?


----------



## jlm1976 (Feb 26, 2009)

Yes, they are refering to keeping your spine perpendicular to the slope. You can also think of it as keeping your hips and shoulders parallel to the slope. Whichever works for you.


----------



## Guest (Feb 15, 2010)

jlm1976 said:


> PSIA - AASI


nice link - i work with josh!

alasdair


----------



## sidewall (Nov 6, 2009)

It's an interesting concept because I think I tend to stay back slightly to prevent "going over the bars" so to speak. I'm going to try it next time out.


----------



## Siren (Jan 16, 2009)

Snowolf said:


> The second major factor is physiological in nature. Our Vestibular Sense (fluid in the inner ear) gives us our sense of balance and keeps us standing vertical. In a way, this is our "onboard gyro". When standing on a steep hill with our eyes closed, this sense will cause us to stand perfectly vertical with our head pointed at the zenith opposing the force of gravity. In our day to day life, this is a good thing, otherwise we would not be able to maintain our balance and walk without falling. On skis or a snowboard however this works against us in a very bad way.
> 
> As you know, you need to remain perpendicular to your board to evenly distribute your weight on the board. The means that on a 35 degree pitch, you really need to stand 35 degrees down hill. Your Vestibular Sense is trying to make you stand vertical so it feels very "wrong" to lean "down the hill" but in order to control your board or a pair of skis, you must.


What a perfect way to explain it! When I first learned how to ride, I discovered that it was the most counter-intuitive thing I'd ever done. It seemed that everything my body wanted to do (e.g. lean back/uphill) resulted in me falling. Once I got used to it & trusted that feeling of leaning "down the hill", the confidence shot straight up, going fast felt good, & I hardly fell. Now, on to jumps...


----------

