# Can carve camber board but not CRC



## powdo (Feb 6, 2017)

Been riding a Burton Malolo 162 for over a decade, and I can carve this thing perfectly. Lately I've been wondering if a new board would be better for faster turn initiation in trees and moguls. Needing a board that is great for Colorado powder (about 70% of what I do), I bought a Never Summer 25 (163x) with its hybrid CRC profile. (Went with the wide since I'm 95 kg/210 lb, size 11.)

The problem is I cannot carve this Never Summer board _at all_ on the groomers, with the tail sliding out badly. Toeside and heelside the same. Bindings were symmetric on the insert pattern. The inserts (and bindings) looked centered on the sidecut. As a test, I moved the bindings as far back as they would go, which helped a lot, but still very disappointing in comparison to my old board. I have never regretted any purchase as much as this!

Similar length, same sidecut radius (outside of the vario thing on the NS board), same bindings & angles.

Everyone has indicated this board rails turns, so I strongly suspect it's me. :embarrased1: Should I just forget about a hybrid profile since I already know how to ride a camber board? Is it just a matter of time getting used to it? Any thoughts on differences in technique required by a CRC profile?


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## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

My bet is that you're riding in the back seat and don't even realize it.


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## powdo (Feb 6, 2017)

But the additional weight/pressure after moving the bindings back seemed to help the back edge to catch? I was thinking if anything I was too much over the front (which would be comparatively better centered with rearward bindings).

At any rate, thanks for the thought -- I'll try to pay better attention to fore/aft weight position the next time I'm out.


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## trpa_ec (Jan 22, 2012)

I am the wrong person to be giving advice but my thought is you might be thrown off by the rocker section. It's can be easy to pivot off of and if you are sloppy with the back foot and push it, you'll pivot and slide. I initiate with the front foot and drive the board forward through the turn finishing with weight on the back to unload the front in order to switch edges and begin initiation of the next turn. You should engage the back of the board without pivoting on the rocker and pushing the back end of the board.


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## powdo (Feb 6, 2017)

I initiate with the front foot (knee) as well, so I wonder if the tail is already washed out by the time I get enough weight on the back foot to flatten the cambered section?


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## Nivek (Jan 24, 2008)

My thoughts, get more camber. RC will always be a weaker profile than camber for carving. You have a smaller box you can move your weight in on RC compared to camber. 

Boards close-ish to your Malolo: Moss Pin, Flow Solitude, Burton Landlord, Rome Pow Pin, Yes PYL, or a Lago Open Road. They all carve real good like too.

If you really want something RC but want that power off your back leg, the Lib Goldmember. It's overpriced, but probably the most confident on edge RC freeride deck I've ridden. It should cost somewhere around $620 or so, but hey, if you want RC...


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## powdo (Feb 6, 2017)

I never realized that weight placement would be more critical on CRC boards. Thanks for the list of alternates.


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## trpa_ec (Jan 22, 2012)

Here's canmanski carving on the NS Chairman so you can see someone carving hard on a CRC board.

Youtube at 2:47





An Instagram video
https://www.instagram.com/p/BDGR74ttiEX/


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## powdo (Feb 6, 2017)

The instagram shot looks incredibly in the back seat (though I suppose it could be a trick of the camera angle). I'll just have to exaggerate my positioning to see if anything helps. I suppose I could be too strong with the front knee rotation as well.


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## powdo (Feb 6, 2017)

In another thread, @F1EA mentioned this
_On a CRC profile, your contacts come on/off the snow depending where your weight is..... if you were used to full camber, you have to get used to the CRC profile and keep in mind where your weight is._
Seems relevant to my issue.


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## Argo (Feb 25, 2010)

The harder the snow is, the harder it will be for you to carve a CRC or any rocker in the middle board.... The softer the groomer is, the easier it is to carve on it....


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## powdo (Feb 6, 2017)

Argo said:


> The harder the snow is, the harder it will be for you to carve a CRC or any rocker in the middle board.... The softer the groomer is, the easier it is to carve on it....


Good point. I may throw some bindings on the camber board for back to back comparison next time.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk


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## virtu (Jan 22, 2016)

Hey 

I have a CRC (Lib Tech TRS) and I can give you a few tips that works for me, but of course, I am still learning and I have to fix my bad stance posture.
Make a few presses, nose and tail, on a run that you are familiar, and when doing the press, just press a little bit more one edge per time.

Doing the presses you will move your weight a lot to each side, and then you will feel the camber working, do this just to have a feeling and also to encourage you to move your weight a little bit more forward when carving.

So, when you start a turn, take off the weight of the back foot, and after engaged the front edge, press down with your back ankles just to engage the back edge, you need to do something to compensate the rocker in the middle, and the presses help you to engage the back foot edge, either toe or heel, slightly enough to no wash you out.

If you check the profile of the TRS you can see that the rocker part is just a tiny part between the bindings, and if I have my weight on the back seat with this profile, the rocker will make the board twist, but if I take off completely the weight of my back foot, the rocker part will make the turning unstable, that's why I just put a little bit of pressure on my back feet to avoid the tail become loose.

Of course, I don't have the best technique, but after I trained presses my turns become more stable and speed checks easy to control the intense


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## powdo (Feb 6, 2017)

virtu said:


> I have a CRC (Lib Tech TRS) and I can give you a few tips that works for me


Presses are a great idea to make the weight shifts obvious. Brilliant! 

I've been meaning to work on rolls (as something to do when riding with my son, who is becoming comfortable on blues), so perhaps that will highlight if I'm stuck on one side as well.


Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk


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## wrathfuldeity (Oct 5, 2007)

Crc vs cam: On cam you can stand up more to engage in a carve…letting the board do the work. With crc you need to be more dynamic and more mindful to move fore and aft...and to work/move the board under you. With cam there is more liveliness/pop to decamber, suck up the knees and set the next edge.


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## powdo (Feb 6, 2017)

A report after getting a day at Copper on Thur (pretty hard base with a shallow layer on top from the 40 degree temps; not slush by any means, and shadowed sections were still quite firm)... carving was much improved overall.

I backed off to basics... well, at least for one run. Edged traverses, carved garlands, all was well. Bindings centered on the inserts (and sidecut). Then I played with weight positioning on steeper blue runs -- *my weight was definitely too far forward*. Shifting more rearward caused the tail to grab onto the snow much better. Looking down while carving, the back leg was clearly bent more than the front, which makes sense in hindsight. Center of gravity at the center of sidecut (and between feet since stance was centered on the sidecut), would mandate the back leg bends more as the slope increases. Even managed a few respectable carved circles. Moving onto even steeper runs, the rearward shift required was clearly more, but not uncomfortable. Interestingly, the mogul runs didn't seem that different, likely due to the fore & aft weight shifting that's already going on.

Ultimately on groomers, it still seemed like an equal "push" or force, but merely starting from a slight bend in the rear leg. Now that I think about it, this additional bend was clearly needed on relatively steep runs (e.g., upper section of Whale's Tail or various lake chutes at Breck), not that those are carving material, of course. Funny how that escaped my earlier thought process.

Additionally, ramping up the speed in order to push quite hard on sharper groomed turns was helpful. Perhaps collapsing the camber sections helps (although harder since they are shorter)? I was eventually able to make most of the short radius turns my old camber board allowed without issue, but I certainly had to push harder to engage the entire edge. Definitely a greater board angle (relative to the camber board) was required. This was actually quite a bit of fun, since the edge just didn't want to let go (likely from the additional pressure from rocker section in the center).

*On that camber board, having the weight a bit forward of center didn't really matter. On this CRC board, it certainly does, as many of you indicated.*

The CRC profile was helpful in some icier and larger mogul fields, although I'd probably bypass those when possible. (I much prefer the give of fresher snow.) I managed to find a couple crusted-powder stashes which worked without issue, but those were not any real test of whether I would bury the nose as I would on the camber board. (I would set bindings all the way back on that board on powder days to prevent that. I'm hoping not to have to do so with the CRC profile. Yeah, I'm getting lazy in my old age.)

At this point, I think carving is acceptable (and will certainly improve with more time). Not as forgiving as a camber board (as far as weight placement). Not as much energy recovery / "throw me into the next turn" either, but I think both of those are to be expected. I'm looking forward to the next test -- the powder performance, especially in the trees. Hopefully there will be a dump next weekend. Fingers crossed, at least.


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## SGboarder (Jun 24, 2012)

powdo said:


> Looking down while carving, the back leg was clearly bent more than the front, which makes sense in hindsight. Center of gravity at the center of sidecut (and between feet since stance was centered on the sidecut), would mandate the back leg bends more as the slope increases.


That does not really make sense. Your body should be perpendicular to the slope/board, so the center of gravity is always forward of the center of the sidecut (unless going exactly across the fall line).

Unless you're going really slow, it is not the (center of) gravity acting on your board but the forces from your riding.


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## powdo (Feb 6, 2017)

SGboarder said:


> That does not really make sense. Your body should be perpendicular to the slope/board


That's what I used to think, but doing so causes the tail to wash out on this CRC profiled board. That much is clear.

Ultimately, the acceleration acting on your center of mass should ideally point at the center of the board. Lateral acceleration (i.e., turning) doesn't change that.

Note that I'm not saying someone dropping into a half pipe should not be perpendicular to the slope. They certainly should. Gravity and change in slope angle combine effects, and the net acceleration is no longer straight down. It shifts rearward, so you have to move your weight well forward to avoid looping out.


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## poutanen (Dec 22, 2011)

Lessons...


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## SGboarder (Jun 24, 2012)

powdo said:


> That's what I used to think, but doing so causes the tail to wash out on this CRC profiled board. That much is clear.
> 
> Ultimately, the acceleration acting on your center of mass should ideally point at the center of the board. Lateral acceleration (i.e., turning) doesn't change that.
> 
> Note that I'm not saying someone dropping into a half pipe should not be perpendicular to the slope. They certainly should. Gravity and change in slope angle combine effects, and the net acceleration is no longer straight down. It shifts rearward, so you have to move your weight well forward to avoid looping out.





poutanen said:


> Lessons...


That. Based on his own description, powdo has some fundamental technique issues. While it is helpful (sometimes necessary) on a CRC board to shift weight back a little *for turn completion*, generally the weight should still be on the front leg with similar knee bend and center of gravity in front of the center of the stance. Otherwise you're backseat riding.


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## powdo (Feb 6, 2017)

As I said, I've ridden for years with weight "generally on the front leg" with much success but was very frustrated to find that doesn't work well on this particular board. The rest is a rationalization of why a reward shift was helpful in this case. Of course boarding is a dynamic activity, but when I see videos of expert riders that confirm my suspicion of slightly more knee bend in the rear leg while carving well, it tends to lend a little more validity to that idea, to my mind at least.

I don't disagree that having the weight rearward of center is undesirable. I merely think (and can easily find supporting examples) that it shouldn't be as far forward as I once thought.


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