# Cartel vs Force



## c0r3y.af (Oct 25, 2011)

Hey guys,

So I've been doing some research and decided to up my price range a bit more to get a much better set of bindings. I've basically narrowed it down to the 2012 Burton Cartels or the 2012 Union Forces. Both are right around the $200 mark with the Cartels being a bit more, but my local shop is willing to do $200 on them so it's an equal game. Both have similar features that I like and seem very comfortable and sturdy. 

I'm basically torn and was hoping someone could point me in either direction!

Thanks


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## idshred (Jun 20, 2010)

c0r3y.af said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> So I've been doing some research and decided to up my price range a bit more to get a much better set of bindings. I've basically narrowed it down to the 2012 Burton Cartels or the 2012 Union Forces. Both are right around the $200 mark with the Cartels being a bit more, but my local shop is willing to do $200 on them so it's an equal game. Both have similar features that I like and seem very comfortable and sturdy.
> 
> ...


If you haven't already, you should take your boots in and see how your boots fit in each binding. Test out the toe strap on the unions. Also, the 2012 cartel only comes in re:flex, so that might be something you would like to try. They are both mid-flex do it all bindings. If I were you I would prob. buy the cartels cause I haven't tried re:flex bindings yet. But its hard to go wrong here IMO, my forces have been great bindings, as were my 09 cartels.


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## phony_stark (Jul 2, 2011)

idshred said:


> If you haven't already, you should take your boots in and see how your boots fit in each binding. Test out the toe strap on the unions. Also, the 2012 cartel only comes in re:flex, so that might be something you would like to try. They are both mid-flex do it all bindings. If I were you I would prob. buy the cartels cause I haven't tried re:flex bindings yet. But its hard to go wrong here IMO, my forces have been great bindings, as were my 09 cartels.


This. 

You won't regret either. I've been curious about autocant though, seems cool. I got to use some 390 bosses that were canted, and while I thought I didn't notice any difference, my knees felt a lot better at the end of the day, I wish union would make some canted bedz because I looooove my forces.


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## doron (Nov 14, 2010)

idshred said:


> If you haven't already, you should take your boots in and see how your boots fit in each binding. Test out the toe strap on the unions. Also, the 2012 cartel only comes in re:flex, so that might be something you would like to try. They are both mid-flex do it all bindings. If I were you I would prob. buy the cartels cause I haven't tried re:flex bindings yet. But its hard to go wrong here IMO, my forces have been great bindings, as were my 09 cartels.


This-ing for the second time. You're at a point where both would serve you well so its all about fit at this point. Pay attention to the union toe strap, seems to be a deal breaker for some.


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## CheeseForSteeze (May 11, 2011)

Get whichever one has better ergos for your foot/boot because they're a dead wash in terms of PoU and tech specs.


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## Nivek (Jan 24, 2008)

The Force is touted as a do all freestyle binding. The Cartel lends better towards an all mountain binding.


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## c0r3y.af (Oct 25, 2011)

Thanks for the input guys. The shop near me only has the Cartels in L and S right now and I would need a medium, so I'm going to wait a couple of days until they come in and give them a test fit with my boots. 

I'm fairly new to the whole re-flex thing on the Burtons, could someone explain? I'll definitely test them both for strap hold and flexibility but I'm looking for something at about a mid-level stiffness (all-mountain). I'm honestly torn haha.

Again, appreciate the input guys. You're all very helpful!


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## phony_stark (Jul 2, 2011)

c0r3y.af said:


> Thanks for the input guys. The shop near me only has the Cartels in L and S right now and I would need a medium, so I'm going to wait a couple of days until they come in and give them a test fit with my boots.
> 
> I'm fairly new to the whole re-flex thing on the Burtons, could someone explain? I'll definitely test them both for strap hold and flexibility but I'm looking for something at about a mid-level stiffness (all-mountain). I'm honestly torn haha.
> 
> Again, appreciate the input guys. You're all very helpful!


Nivek or someone else will be able to explain better, but as I understand it, the disc in the middle is hinged, or flexy, as opposed to a hard piece of plastic which creates a deadspot on the board. It allows for truer board flex. You may not really notice or care, the big thing for me was the autocant on the footbeds, those are titties and kind of wrap around your boot instead of having a static degree of cant.

Cheeze is on point though, which ever one feels better for your boot is the one you should buy. Both are incredible bindings that will last you a long time.


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## Nivek (Jan 24, 2008)

The baseplate under the foot and heel's is broken side to side and given a gap they fill with foam. The Heelcup is the only thing connecting the two sides of the baseplate. So its a big loop basically. The disc itself is materially hinged, so not a pin hing like Forum Goodvibes but just a section right down the middle of thinner plastic that bends. The problem is that the disc must be mounted perpendicular to the edge. But the flex windows in the heel and toe area aren't big enough to allow for enough flex when the binding itself is set at 15* or more. So if you ride with stance angles at or above 15*, you get very little to no binding flex. 

All that said, they are solid bindings and for their category are top tier.


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## doron (Nov 14, 2010)

Nivek said:


> The baseplate under the foot and heel's is broken side to side and given a gap they fill with foam. The Heelcup is the only thing connecting the two sides of the baseplate. So its a big loop basically. The disc itself is materially hinged, so not a pin hing like Forum Goodvibes but just a section right down the middle of thinner plastic that bends. The problem is that the disc must be mounted perpendicular to the edge. But the flex windows in the heel and toe area aren't big enough to allow for enough flex when the binding itself is set at 15* or more. So if you ride with stance angles at or above 15*, you get very little to no binding flex.
> 
> All that said, they are solid bindings and for their category are top tier.


Just saw them earlier today at the shop, and your explanation makes a lot of sense. Burton has a pretty funny way or displaying their base plate tech by mounting the binding onto two slabs of wood so you can "feel" the flex pattern. 

My question to you though, regardless of base plate tech and binding, do you think having angles at 15 and beyond would lessen your ability to flex the board the way it was intended?


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## Nivek (Jan 24, 2008)

Sure it does. Your binding is creating a somewhat larger dead spot tip to tip with a higher angle. Is it noticable? When comparing a 15/-15 to 0/0 you I can barely feel it, so most people probably couldn't even feel that. So don't sweat your angles as far as dead spots go.


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