# Kid dies in inbounds avy at Vail



## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

Vail skier dies in avalanche | VailDaily.com

Terrible tragedy, but it was 100% his fault. 

Ducked a rope to hit an unopen run that was prime avalanche terrain when the avalanche danger was off the charts today.


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## WasatchMan (Aug 30, 2011)

At brighton today we had a minimum of 1 or 2 ski patrol the entire day, waiting along the ropes of the only un-open terrain at the resort (avalanche(s) just begging to happen) I've never seen that before, but it was obviously necessary.

I also could not believe the amount of BC lines I could see people doing on the way down the canyon. WTF 

Still sad even though it was his fault, that age just doesn't go well with "DO NOT ENTER" signs... fucking kids...


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## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

WasatchMan said:


> I also could not believe the amount of BC lines I could see people doing on the way down the canyon. WTF


Yep, you see it all the time. 

Loveland Pass being closed all day today probably saved someone's life.


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## SchultzLS2 (Jan 10, 2010)

Sucks big time but....they close runs for a reason. Nobody's fault but his own. Just can hope the message gets out and more people start to obey the warnings for their own safety.


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## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

I think a lot of it is just ignorance, no offense to the deceased, I'm just speaking in general. Runs can be closed for any number of reasons. However, avalanche danger is by far and away the most dire reason for a run to be closed. I think a lot of people just don't realize or maybe overlook the fact that a run is closed because it's likely to avalanche.

Anyone that has the slightest clue about avalanches knew that today was NOT the day to be ducking ropes into closed off avalanche terrain. Anything that wasn't open today that was anywhere close to 30 degrees or more was absolutely off limits to anyone who has a clue.


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## Argo (Feb 25, 2010)

That's a damn shame, 13, he should have been taught by parents to use extreme caution and avoid shit like that. My son is not allowed in any trees or back bowls without one of my adult crew with him. Vail seems VERy good about marking dangers too. I have not met a 13 year old kid that is mature enough to handle that kind of situation yet, my son has been riding for 6 years and is 12.... I can't imagine the feelings the parents had when their son didn't arrive


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## Argo (Feb 25, 2010)

That area is definitely steep and for sure had a lot of snow loaded up on it if they had not set off charges there in the past few days.....


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## ScottVD (Jan 19, 2011)

Totally sad story- got me thinking though, if I found myself in an avalanche what would I do? Is there any general advice? Keep riding down straight or to the side- when it hits are you just toast or what? I'm sure the best practice is avoidance and awareness- but assuming by whatever circumstances you got some snow sheeting off above you- what's next?


Found this from an avalanche awareness website, kinda dreary-


If you are in over your head (not near the surface), try to maintain an air pocket in front of your face using your hands and arms, punching into the snow. When an avalanche finally stops, you may have only a few seconds before the snow sets up and hardens. Many avalanche deaths are caused by suffocation, so creating an air space is one of the most critical things you can do. Also, take a deep breath to expand your chest and hold it; otherwise, you may not be able to breathe after the snow sets. To preserve air space, yell or make noise only when rescuers are near you. Snow is such a good insulator they probably will not hear you until they are practically on top of you.

Above all, do not panic. Keeping your breathing steady will help preserve your air space and extend your survival chances. If you remain calm, your body will be better able to conserve energy.


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## BurtonAvenger (Aug 14, 2007)

Almost lost a friend in the Beavs today. It's just not safe. Oh and kids are stupid.


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## Argo (Feb 25, 2010)

I asked my son what he would do, decent answer from a 12 y/o. He said if it's behind him he said he will haul butt away and to the side to get away. He said if he is in it he will angle to the side and keep trying to swim out of it trying to stay on top.... I guess watching all the snowboarding movies of BC shit helps.....

I feel bad for the parents and unfortunately probably know them....


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## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

ScottVD said:


> Totally sad story- got me thinking though, if I found myself in an avalanche what would I do? Is there any general advice? Keep riding down straight or to the side- when it hits are you just toast or what? I'm sure the best practice is avoidance and awareness- but assuming by whatever circumstances you got some snow sheeting off above you- what's next?
> 
> 
> Found this from an avalanche awareness website, kinda dreary-
> ...


If it's a situation like this where the victim likely had no awareness of the potential danger and you get caught by surprised, you're fucked. It's up to sheer luck at that point. If you are aware of the situation, pick a safe zone and head toward it. Don't be shreddin' it up losing yourself in powder fever. Pick your safe zone and ride to it. Don't wait for something to happen to try to get there. Once that thing pops, if your current momentum isn't enough to get you there, you're a fly in the toilet bowl. You're not going to have time to realize what is happening and then react. If you haven't anticipated it already, you're relying on sheer luck. By the time you realize what is happening, you're already caught.

The best thing to do is to get some avy training, learn how to read terrain, learn how to read the snowpack, and keep a close eye on the backcountry reports. I'm still a newb in this as well. When situations are like they were today, you'll find me strictly inbounds. You better REALLY know what you're doing to be playing in the BC on days like today and you'd be very wise to avoid avy terrain entirely.


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## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

BurtonAvenger said:


> Almost lost a friend in the Beavs today. It's just not safe. Oh and kids are stupid.


What happened there?

There was a small inbounds slide at Loveland today too in the trees between lifts 9 and 4. Not that big, but pretty nasty terrain trap with a tree filled gully right below it. Not a slope I would've picked to slide either. Pretty heavily treed, it was just one small open meadow no bigger than a small house that it released from then propogated from there. It was closed terrain and I didn't see any tracks anywhere near, so I'm guessing it was natural.


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## BurtonAvenger (Aug 14, 2007)

Don't know the details just saw a pic of a slide from the bottom and he posted on FB that it was the sketchiest ride he's ever taken.


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## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

BurtonAvenger said:


> Don't know the details just saw a pic of a slide from the bottom and he posted on FB that it was the sketchiest ride he's ever taken.


Well, glad he made it at least.

I don't fuck around when it's as sketchy as it was today.


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## BurtonAvenger (Aug 14, 2007)

I don't even know why he was out there honestly. I'll see him this week at SIA he's getting a switch kick to the ass from me for this one. I'm not ready to bury one of my friends yet.


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## cjcameron11 (Feb 5, 2011)

Shit news and feel sorry for the family. But when i was in breck i was on the lift with a ski patrol guy and asked him why a particular run (upper lehman) was closed at the time given that it looked like there was plenty of untouched snow on it. He said that the main reason was because they only had 20 odd inches base that the 6 inches snow over night wouldn't have bonded to it well enough as to ensure the safety of the public boarding on it.

He said that the snowpack was relatively weak and that avy danger was actually quite high even though the angle wasn't prime avy angle. I must admit i never even considered that it would happen inbounds, and after looking up the run that the kid died on it looks way steeper than the run i was asking about, and with a shitty snowpack and 9" over night then i can now understand why it was closed.

Still sad news for anyones family especially a 13 yo.


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## Argo (Feb 25, 2010)

In reality we had 15-16" of fresh before this accident happened..... Maybe more


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## MarshallV82 (Apr 6, 2011)

In any event, sad news for sure =[


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## snowvols (Apr 16, 2008)

This is sad for sure. Thoughts and prayers go to the family of the child. Would be tough as a parent to bury your child.

Your title is pretty misleading though. It was on closed terrain so that is not inbounds. If a run or lift is closed you are supposed to treat it like BC terrain.


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## Tech420 (Jul 1, 2011)

Very sad prayers for the family.


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## turbospartan (Oct 27, 2010)

BA - could you post the picture of the slide from your buddy?


I'm not sure how that all works, but will there be a "report" about this slide, or probably not since it was in bounds? 

It'd be helpful to see photos of the slide path / terrain as well, but don't know if they'd actually do it since someone perished.


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## killclimbz (Aug 10, 2007)

All avalanche related fatalities in Colorado are investigated and reported on by the CAIC. 

It was a rough day yesterday. The kid in Vail, terrible, but yes it was his decision making that led to his demise. 

Evidently another person was buried and killed at Winterpark, in some sort of terrain trap. No word as to if it was a closed run or not. Just a quick clip about it on the avy forecast for today. More info should come to light later today.

I have also heard from a reliable source that one of the two snowmobilers on Buffalo Pass outside of Steamboat was killed in an avalanche. So three deaths yesterday. Bringing the count to four and our seasonal average is six. 

Personal experience/observation here. Everyone knows I pretty ride exclusively in the backcountry these days. Knowing that with the new snow the avalanche danger was going to be through the roof, I was fairly picky about the terrain I'd ride at Bert. I was choosing terrain that has been beaten down by tons of riders that had fresh snow on top. The 90's is the area, it offers easy laps by hiking or skinning out the aqueduct that runs across the upper 2/3's of the runs. There are only a couple of spots that have enough snow to ride above that, otherwise it's just too rocky to bother with. That does mean you have to be mindful of what is above you at times when crossing the aqueduct. I set off a small slide above me when I was flattening out a spot to transition my board. I was on a flat section next to some rocks, but didn't realize there was a nice slab of snow being held above me. I triggered it from my spot and got buried to my knees, my buddy almost to his waist. Fortunately there wasn't that much snow besides for that pocket, and this is a spot that is normally not a problem. Not enough to bury a person, but one hell of a reminder. This years snow pack has made for unusual problems and hair trigger releases. I can see how even inbounds this is going to create some serious problems. Especially in the tree runs where patrol does not normally manage the snow. 

My condolences to all the families and friends who lost loved ones this past weekend.


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## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

Yep, unfortunately, we all knew that the combination of powder fever and fucked snowpack would almost certainly lead to this type of run of incidents with the first significant snowfall. I think it was greatly compounded by the fact that significant snowfall also happened to fall on a weekend, so maximum traffic was out there.


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## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

I also agree with Snowolf's point that anyone and everyone that likes to play in the snow in the mountains should at least pursue very basic avalanche awareness. At least be able to recognize the obvious signs (whumphing, shooting cracks, etc) and be able to recognize avalanche terrain and terrain traps as well as basic rescue knowledge. You're limited in what you can do without equipment, but still, if your buddy is caught in a slide, you're his best and likely only bet for survival.

I noticed in the report that the second kid was able to escape and go seek help. I'm sure more detail will come to light, but if this kid would've known that going for help wasn't a viable option, could the outcome maybe have been different? Everyone teaches their kids to go seek adult help if there's an accident, but in this scenario, seeking help wasn't an option. Maybe it wouldn't have made a difference and maybe the kid just plain panicked - completely understandable. It's just a very hard way to learn a good lesson to at least teach the youngsters the very basics about avalanche awareness.

I can't imagine what that poor family is going through right now.


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## killclimbz (Aug 10, 2007)

I am actually thinking about taking out the rope, harness, and going out to try to set off some of the more suspect lines around. That small slide I triggered, was a soft wind slab with nothing but facets underneath. No big surprise there. I tried to hike up the debris to get a look at the crown, but it was still unsupportable. 

Terrain management (when isn't it?) is the moral of the story this season. I am not sure that there is going to be much to do in the backcountry that is safe outside of the trad routes at Berthoud this year. Terrain is just going to be limited.


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## BurtonAvenger (Aug 14, 2007)

Who said his slide was inbounds it wasn't.


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## snowvols (Apr 16, 2008)

I was referring to the title when I said my post. I don't know if you were referring to my post BA :dunno:


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## Argo (Feb 25, 2010)

I think the unfortunate thing. Have noticed up here is that only about 25% of the people living and riding the areas up here daily have respect for how quick nature can take your life, this kid was local. The other 75% take it for granted because they ride it so often they lose respect for it somehow. If me or my famil is out there you better be damn sure I have told them some basics of where NOT to go and what to do if something happens, I'm talking inside of resort boundaries. I won't go BC without some of the dudes I know that know what they are doing, it makes me feel bad every time something like this happens, usually because I am part of the trauma response that has to work on these people in the afternoon. Bad choices while doing snows offs and bad choices while on Icey roads make some gnarly ER/OR hospital customers


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## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

snowvols said:


> I was referring to the title when I said my post. I don't know if you were referring to my post BA :dunno:


The reason I said inbounds is because the terrain is within resort boundaries. No, the terrain wasn't open, but to most people who have no avalanche awareness, it's still "inbounds terrain" so they deem it safer. As this incident shows, just because an area is within resort boundaries and easily accessible from open areas doesn't mean that it's any safer than true backcountry. If it's not open, there's no way of knowing what, if any, avalanche mitigation work has been done on it.


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## BurtonAvenger (Aug 14, 2007)

snowvols said:


> I was referring to the title when I said my post. I don't know if you were referring to my post BA :dunno:


Nah dude someone else asked me to post my buddies slide photos. Just clarifying they weren't in bounds when it slid.


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## snowvols (Apr 16, 2008)

linvillegorge said:


> The reason I said inbounds is because the terrain is within resort boundaries. No, the terrain wasn't open, but to most people who have no avalanche awareness, it's still "inbounds terrain" so they deem it safer. As this incident shows, just because an area is within resort boundaries and easily accessible from open areas doesn't mean that it's any safer than true backcountry. If it's not open, there's no way of knowing what, if any, avalanche mitigation work has been done on it.


Yea I was just really looking for clarification. The initial report I read was the kid was on closed terrain and ducked a rope. It is super sad regardless. Hopefully the kids friend isn't too shaken up throughout the experience. That would be awful to be riding with a friend and loose him when you are only 13 since you ducked a rope. I know I have ducked ropes before, but I was fully aware of my actions and the conditions.


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## wrathfuldeity (Oct 5, 2007)

linvillegorge said:


> You're limited in what you can do without equipment, but still, if your buddy is caught in a slide, you're his best and likely only bet for survival.
> 
> I noticed in the report that the second kid was able to escape and go seek help. I'm sure more detail will come to light, but if this kid would've known that going for help wasn't a viable option, could the outcome maybe have been different? Everyone teaches their kids to go seek adult help if there's an accident, but in this scenario, seeking help wasn't an option. Maybe it wouldn't have made a difference and maybe the kid just plain panicked - completely understandable. It's just a very hard way to learn a good lesson to at least teach the youngsters the very basics about avalanche awareness.


Just to note, rushing in to help without a good quick assessment of further risk can also lead to more trouble or causalities. Since the 2nd kid was clueless, it could be better he went for help than the psych trauma from finding his friend dead or not being able to find him at all or setting off another slide in which he was also buried.


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## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

wrathfuldeity said:


> Just to note, rushing in to help without a good quick assessment of further risk can also lead to more trouble or causalities. Since the 2nd kid was clueless, it could be better he went for help than the psych trauma from finding his friend dead or not being able to find him at all or setting off another slide in which he was also buried.


Yep. I'm just Monday morning QB'ing here. Curious to see the final report.


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## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

mpdsnowman said:


> In all honesty it doesnt matter whos fault or not it is. actually if you want to put fault I guess mother nature wins that one....


It absolutely matters because there's lessons to be learned from every incident. If you even casually glanced at avy reports over the weekend, there were clear statements to essentially avoid any and all avy terrain. The rose was pretty much red (high avalanche danger) for all aspects. There were no safe avalanche slopes this weekend and likely aren't many even now. I wouldn't go into avy terrain today.


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## Nolefan2011 (Mar 12, 2011)

So this could be an ignorant question, but how safe are the bowls this year inbounds at resorts. For example, I am heading to Kicking Horse and Revelstoke, because I really wanted to get a chance to hit some of that really challenging inbounds terrain. I guess I always assumed those shoots that you can hike to were fine as long as they were open. 

Should I take a class? Should I have a beacon? I guess I am one of those guys that always assumed if you were inbounds, you were safe. 

Thanks.


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## Argo (Feb 25, 2010)

Boy, 13, killed by avalanche in closed Vail ski area Sunday - The Denver Post

Denver post article


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## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

Nolefan2011 said:


> So this could be an ignorant question, but how safe are the bowls this year inbounds at resorts. For example, I am heading to Kicking Horse and Revelstoke, because I really wanted to get a chance to hit some of that really challenging inbounds terrain. I guess I always assumed those shoots that you can hike to were fine as long as they were open.
> 
> Should I take a class? Should I have a beacon? I guess I am one of those guys that always assumed if you were inbounds, you were safe.
> 
> Thanks.


Inbounds terrain is generally very safe at resorts if it's open. It's been a long time since someone died in an inbounds, open terrain avy here in CO. I think the last one was at A-Basin off of Pali and it was back in '05 or so.

Know the difference between hike to inbounds terrain and backcountry gates. If you're not sure, ask patrol.

A beacon and gear aren't going to do you a whole lot of good if you don't know how to use them.


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## killclimbz (Aug 10, 2007)

The resorts do a great job keeping their terrain safe. Keep in mind this kid was in a closed off area that patrol had not done control work on.


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## Argo (Feb 25, 2010)

A ski patroller died last year at wolf creek on some terrain that was going to be open that day. He got caught during morning inspection. Dunno if you would count that or not....


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## killclimbz (Aug 10, 2007)

And of course after I make that statement, the first news report comes out about the death at Winterpark. 



> The male skier was found in a tree area between Trestle and Round House trails in the debris field of a small snow slide in a gully.


That is definitely an inbounds area and I am thinking that it was probably not roped off. Maybe Trestle was, but Roundhouse is almost certainly open. Damn facets.


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## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

I wouldn't count that since the terrain wasn't open at the time, but it's certainly worth mentioning.

He wasn't just a patroller, he was the head of patrol. If that's not a wake up call, I don't know what is. There probably wasn't another person alive who knew that terrain and that snowpack better than he did, so if he can make a mistake and get caught, it's a stark reminder that it can absolutely happen to anyone, anywhere.


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## killclimbz (Aug 10, 2007)

Argo said:


> A ski patroller died last year at wolf creek on some terrain that was going to be open that day. He got caught during morning inspection. Dunno if you would count that or not....


That was the director of ski patrol who got killed. He also did not follow protocol on that day. It might have saved his life if he had. It is really easy to make mistakes though. Avalanches don't really care either way.


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## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

killclimbz said:


> And of course after I make that statement, the first news report comes out about the death at Winterpark.
> 
> 
> 
> That is definitely an inbounds area and I am thinking that it was probably not roped off. Maybe Trestle was, but Roundhouse is almost certainly open. Damn facets.


Woah. We'll have to wait for some more detail I suppose, but it may be time to reset the clock on the last CO inbounds avy death.


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## killclimbz (Aug 10, 2007)

I just checked Winterpark's website and it states that both runs are open today. It's a pretty safe bet to say they were both open yesterday. So unless the trees were roped off inbetween (doubtful) this will probably count as an in bounds avalanche at a resort in an open area.


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## Argo (Feb 25, 2010)

killclimbz said:


> That was the director of ski patrol who got killed. He also did not follow protocol on that day. It might have saved his life if he had. It is really easy to make mistakes though. Avalanches don't really care either way.


No joke, I was there over that 2 week period, we were getting serious snow dump around that time frame. He definately knew the mtn and terrain....


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## killclimbz (Aug 10, 2007)

Sounds like the snowmobile death, actually may just be a rescue as reported. So my source was off on this one hopefully. That is good news.


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## Argo (Feb 25, 2010)

Colorado: Two dead in ski area avalanches Summit County Citizens Voice

This report still says one missing for the sleds, hope they are off on the report and all rescues were made.


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## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

Here's the CAIC video for the recent Snowmass avy fatality:

Burnt Mtn 1 12 2012 - YouTube

Just goes to show that an avy doesn't have to be large to be dangerous and that terrain traps can lead to burials from even a small slide.


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## killclimbz (Aug 10, 2007)

Since they started keeping records of avalanche deaths, there have been 20 accidents with 21 deaths on slopes with vertical of 70 feet or less. Seven are from Colorado. Here is the break down by vertical feet.

vertical # fatal accidents #killed
70 ft,4,4
60, 2, 2
50, 8, 8
40, 4, 5
30, 2, 2

Just a little scary eh?

*Sorry the forum won't let me format the table for whatever reason, added comas to denote Vertical, #of Fatal Accidents, and #killed


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## Shazkar (Dec 14, 2011)

linvillegorge said:


> Here's the CAIC video for the recent Snowmass avy fatality:
> 
> Burnt Mtn 1 12 2012 - YouTube
> 
> Just goes to show that an avy doesn't have to be large to be dangerous and that terrain traps can lead to burials from even a small slide.


Wow. It is good to read all this, as someone who has only been west twice. I know I'm always going to make sure to take all the precautions I need to now.


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## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

<50' vertical? That's nuts. Most people would consider <50' to be a test slope. Definitely makes you pause and reconsider the potential danger and what truly qualifies as a test slope.


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## DrnknZag (Feb 7, 2010)

killclimbz said:


> Since they started keeping records of avalanche deaths, there have been 20 accidents with 21 deaths on slopes with vertical of 70 feet or less. Seven are from Colorado. Here is the break down by vertical feet.
> 
> vertical # fatal accidents #killed
> 70 ft,4,4
> ...


Yikes.

Although I wonder if a lot of people don't report smaller avys unless there's either a full burial or death, which would skew the results a bit. Still scary though.


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## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

DrnknZag said:


> Yikes.
> 
> Although I wonder if a lot of people don't report smaller avys unless there's either a full burial or death, which would skew the results a bit. Still scary though.


It wouldn't skew the data that killclimbz posted. That data was simply the vertical footage of the slope, the number of fatal accidents, and the number of total fatalities. If it has something to do with fatality percentage, then yeah, it would skew it. 

I'm sure there are plenty of smaller avalanches that go unreported. I mean, if you kick off a little 20 footer, are you gonna report that? Almost certainly not. Now, if that same 20 footer carries you into a tree and snaps your femur, then it's gonna get reported. Same incident, but the result determines whether or not it's reported.


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## killclimbz (Aug 10, 2007)

I did not report my little release yesterday. The chart was just relating the number of fatal accidents and number of fatalities recorded on slopes of 70ft or less. The thing is I would say a good percentage of avalanche deaths are from small slides. Larger than this diagram, but I think this one really drives home the point.


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## DrnknZag (Feb 7, 2010)

^^Yep, I read that data wrong! My bad.


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## killclimbz (Aug 10, 2007)

Here is a video that perfectly illustrates that short slope burial. What is the height of that slope? 15-20ft? The snowmobiler is buried.






Really scary...


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## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

Damn. Just a road bank.


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## killclimbz (Aug 10, 2007)

This is by far the worst snow pack I have seen. Nothing comes close. It has me re-evaluating lines that I generally consider safe even on high avalanche danger days. With such a huge faceted layer, the only good bets are low angle terrain and heavily skier compacted zones.


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## AcroPhile (Dec 3, 2010)

killclimbz said:


> This is by far the worst snow pack I have seen. Nothing comes close. It has me re-evaluating lines that I generally consider safe even on high avalanche danger days. With such a huge faceted layer, the only good bets are low angle terrain and heavily skier compacted zones.


Found this bit on the CAIC avalanche forecast for the front range: "You will be able to trigger avalanches remotely today on 30° slopes. It is also possible to trigger avalanches from very low-angle or flat terrain. Traveling on flat terrain could produce cracks that shoot up onto steeper slopes, releasing an avalanche that runs back down to where you are standing. Today is a good day to avoid traveling on or under avalanche terrain (slopes 30° or steeper). If you are venturing into the backcountry choose your route very carefully."

Sounds really sketchy out there.


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## killclimbz (Aug 10, 2007)

That is exactly what I am seeing. Terrain of 30 degrees, especially on the shady slopes is very hair trigger. The only shady steep north facing shot I have done is in the main 90's area. As I mentioned it's been very skier compacted even before the facets really grew. You get off of where the snow has been compacted and it's just sugar to the ground, and no fun to ride anyway. 

Very sunny aspect lines seem to be decent too. The big warm up we had a couple of weeks ago really baked that stuff and re-froze it. I would call it "more stable". Instead of facets growing there, a lot of it melted off before it started snowing for real. Of course the coverage isn't nearly as deep on these aspects too, so if the terrain is rocky you could get beat up. 

The snowmobiler death that was a rescue is now a death. So three people died in avalanche related incidents over the weekend. The one at Winterpark was in Topher's trees, which has killed before. Though I believe the person it was named after "Topher" was killed in a tree well. Back then it was fairly tight trees with short open shots. A few years ago, Winterpark decided to thin out the trees in there. It has since then be an area you can comfortably ski through, which of course means avalanches can run. Of course after doing this, they did not actively patrol the area as before. Considering that it was in between two open runs, they can't really claim that this was a closed area. I seriously wonder if this one is going to bite them in the ass. I can see an argument of negligence on their part for this one. Hate to say it, but they made that run just like Floral Park. Ski patrol at Berthoud had to ski cut that area to ensure it was safe. By thinning the trees in Topher's, the same measures would need to be considered.


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## AcroPhile (Dec 3, 2010)

Actually, it looks like it's 4 now. Colorado avalanche deaths rise to 4 - The Denver Post


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## Argo (Feb 25, 2010)

He was just referring to last weekend when he said 3... Rough weekend for sure.


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## DrnknZag (Feb 7, 2010)

^^Three over the past weekend, but four total for the season.


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## killclimbz (Aug 10, 2007)

Yep, just referring to the weekend. Four in a week I believe though. That is super rough. Even rougher is all three last weekend died on Sunday. I don't think this surprises anyone. What surprises me is that two of the three were within resort boundaries. Yes, I know Prima Cornice was closed, but from everything I can tell, the Winterpark one was not. I would say that anytime that you are riding terrain that is not groomed you should have your avalanche eyes on full tune. Not saying carry full gear, but avoid obvious avalanche traps, features like you would in the backcountry. Could save your life. Riding with a partner is going to be pretty key right now.


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## snowvols (Apr 16, 2008)

I was putting money down that someone would be killed here in Utah this past weekend. I guess they did a really good job getting the word out not to ride steeper lines. I figured some moron would still try it but thankfully no one braved it. I believe only 2 people were buried from reading reports.


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## jdang307 (Feb 6, 2011)

A different snowmobile rescue caught on tape

Avalanche Rescue Caught on Tape - Yahoo!


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## hikeswithdogs (Sep 23, 2011)

Honestly I'm surprised this terrain hadn't been bombed by patrol, if this kid rode to this area without even having to hike up the mountain then I'd say it was a bad call not a make it a priority to bomb this area because patrol should know they get a ton of tourists and a large percentage of them are ignorant to the trouble you can get yourself into just by pointing your skis\board down the hill.

Now if this kid got off a lift and then had to hike up the hill to access it then that's a completely different story


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## killclimbz (Aug 10, 2007)

Are you talking about the Vail victim or the Winterpark victim? 

The Vail victim ducked ropes, not much you can do about it. If you're going to duck ropes, you should know what sort of terrain you are getting into at the very least. I believe the lower half of Prima Cornice was open, so some control work had been done, and it probably wasn't a very large slide either.

For Wintepark, Tophers is in and area where you couldn't blast. It requires a short uphill hike for most people to get to it, though there are a few other ways to get in there. Since it's all trees, the only way to mitigate it, is to slope cut the hell out of it. A serious pain for ski patrol.


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## hikeswithdogs (Sep 23, 2011)

killclimbz said:


> Are you talking about the Vail victim or the Winterpark victim?
> 
> The Vail victim ducked ropes, not much you can do about it. If you're going to duck ropes, you should know what sort of terrain you are getting into at the very least. I believe the lower half of Prima Cornice was open, so some control work had been done, and it probably wasn't a very large slide either.
> 
> For Wintepark, Tophers is in and area where you couldn't blast. It requires a short uphill hike for most people to get to it, though there are a few other ways to get in there. Since it's all trees, the only way to mitigate it, is to slope cut the hell out of it. A serious pain for ski patrol.


Nope I was talking about the Vail slide and I agree the rider "should have" known(and I 100% place the blame on them) but we all know that just isn't realistic when it comes to tourists and especially dumb kids. One thing I've noticed around here is that most of the time they will shut down any adjacent lifts that lead to downhill\traversable areas that have not had control work done or are unsafe and if they can't shut them down they will actually post a living breathing patroller to stand there and watch and ward people off.


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## killclimbz (Aug 10, 2007)

I hate to be cruel, but with a resort the size of Vail, it probably isn't realistic to post patrollers at every entrance to closed runs. The whole damn mountain is pretty much at a prime avalanche angle. I can't really put any blame on them for this incident. It was closed and marked as so. It's a bummer for sure.


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## turbospartan (Oct 27, 2010)

hikeswithdogs said:


> Nope I was talking about the Vail slide and I agree the rider "should have" known(and I 100% place the blame on them) but we all know that just isn't realistic when it comes to tourists and especially dumb kids. One thing I've noticed around here is that most of the time they will shut down any adjacent lifts that lead to downhill\traversable areas that have not had control work done or are unsafe and if they can't shut them down they will actually post a living breathing patroller to stand there and watch and ward people off.


You can only get to Prima Cornice from 2 lifts, and those 2 lifts serve about 30 other runs. Only 44% of Vail's 5,000+ acres are open... doubt they could have someone patrolling every roped-off area.


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## hikeswithdogs (Sep 23, 2011)

killclimbz said:


> I hate to be cruel, but with a resort the size of Vail, it probably isn't realistic to post patrollers at every entrance to closed runs. The whole damn mountain is pretty much at a prime avalanche angle. I can't really put any blame on them for this incident. It was closed and marked as so. It's a bummer for sure.



Got it, sorry I've never been to Vail so I'm not familiar with the layout sounds like there wasn't much they could have really done.

I really hope this is widely published so someone can learn from this tragic death, people just assume gonig to a ski resort is as safe as gong to the beach which obviously it is not. 

It's like they need HUGE signs in the parking lot that say "FOLLOW THE RULES\SIGNS\REGULATIONS OR YOU COULD DIE HERE TODAY"


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## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

killclimbz said:


> I hate to be cruel, but with a resort the size of Vail, it probably isn't realistic to post patrollers at every entrance to closed runs. The whole damn mountain is pretty much at a prime avalanche angle. I can't really put any blame on them for this incident. It was closed and marked as so. It's a bummer for sure.


This. Depending on the report on what type of slide this was, my only beef with patrol might be having terrain under this run open without having sone proper avy mitigation on it to prevent a possible run out into open terrain.

I've seen a lot of speculation though that the kid was buried by sluff.


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## Argo (Feb 25, 2010)

I would not blame the resort if it was my son. My son, who is 12, rides chair 11 probably 10 times a day, 14 today actually. I usually ride that chair that often too. Neither of us ever think about makin that turn to go into that area and hike up, there are plenty of other nice runs right around there with cliff drops and what not. Shit happens when you go where you shouldn't be.... Sad.

Vail posted on their Facebook page about it today and of course you have a lot of people flaming them but plenty more that support and ward off the retards that have no idea wtf they are talking about


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## Argo (Feb 25, 2010)

I know where they were, there is no access to where the slide was without hiking over or up, the path doesn't cross any other runs.


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## Argo (Feb 25, 2010)

On maps the chair is called north woods express...


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## killclimbz (Aug 10, 2007)

I'm thinking that this wasn't a very big slide. That is why mitigation hadn't taken place there as it wouldn't be a threat to those on the lower open portion of the run. That and ski patrol hadn't had the chance or time to run mitigation techniques on the run. Hence the reason why it was closed. 

This is definitely not Vail's fault in any way. Those kids went for it and one of them paid a very high price.


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## turbospartan (Oct 27, 2010)

Argo said:


> I know where they were, there is no access to where the slide was without hiking over or up, the path doesn't cross any other runs.



Not doubting you or anything, but can't you get that that run from higher up as it is a "named" run (when open)? Either from the top of Chair 11 and going through some trees, or basically just taking the Swingsville run till you get to where I would assume they had it roped off?

Here is the report: CAIC: Colorado Avalanche Information Center

I didn't know that there were 3 skiiers/riders involved... thought it was the kid and his buddy, and his buddy went for help?


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## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

A couple of the FB comments on Vail's page are laughable. It HAS to be someone's fault because a KID DIED!!! That's basically the logic of some people.

I don't know what happened to personal accountability in this country. The run was closed. The kids ducked a rope. End of story. It sucks, it's tragic, but it was their own fault.


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## Argo (Feb 25, 2010)

From 11 you would go right to swingsville, pass two black trails, then veer right off swings onto prima, prima splits right to prima cornice or left to prima. It's roped and gated up there. If you go down prima you have to jump ropes, scale some cliffs and meet up with upper prima cornice access. If you go down brandy dancer, something like that, you have to cut under ropes through trees and across a cliff to meet the upper prima area. I don't know where they went in from but from all directions that shit either has a rope or a gate unless you hike straight up it. I doubt they hiked up it, I would guess they hoped to snake a fun run by ducking the ropes, that's speculation though. Reports said they hiked it, that's a killer hike and it would most likely have popped the avy when they headed up it..... If my leg was good I would ride over and snap some pictures...


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