# What’s the best “do it all” or “rad dad” board for a bigger guy?



## RyanTurp (Oct 10, 2021)

Hey everyone, been having a real hard time finding the right “do it all” board to buy. Me being almost 6’5” about 225lbs 11.5 shoe size I don’t know if I need a wide board or not. I’m in the east coast so we get very harsh conditions all winter from washy slush to straight ice.
I don’t do much park but love side hits and some jibbing and would definitely like a twin board. Also get into quite a bit of back country and powder riding.
I don’t want to buy multiple boards so I’m looking for the best “do it all” out there.
I’ve been looking at these: capita doa/super doa, Salomon huckknife, rossignol jibsaw, Rome mod
Not too worried about the price tag because I plan on riding this board for a few years.
please help!


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## Yeahti87 (Jan 17, 2019)

11,5 US - wide only. Look for a directional twin in camber or a camrock with an edge tech.


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## Phedder (Sep 13, 2014)

You don't do much park but you want a twin? Do you ride switch a significant amount of the time, and in demanding situations? Or is your switch riding just cruising on groomers? 

I ask because outside of the park, a directional board has every advantage over a twin. The first board that came to mind was the Libtech Ejack Knife or Dynamo 162W. Slightly setback, slightly tapered, edge tech and camber for grip on ice, and they'll ride switch just fine. As above, I'd be looking for something camber or camrock with edgetech, directional twin or something with a slight set back and taper.


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## Elevation212 (Apr 21, 2019)

I’m your exact specs, ride east coast and out west, my favorite rad dad board is my yes PYL 164w, with a 11.5 boot definitely recommend 264mm or wider deck so you don’t have to go extreme binding angles on old ass knees.

I don’t jib anymore so can’t speak to that but given what you said I’d buy the jones ultra mountain twin in a 165 wide. Gives you the twin with traction bumps for ice and stiffens the board while lightening it for thrashing around the mountain. 3d rockered nose for powder with great ease of turn imitation but camber between the feet for locked in carves with nice pop jetting out of turns.

Also the graphics this year are boss


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## deadass (Aug 2, 2021)

You could also look at the rome ravine or ejack knife. Definitely get the wide version if you go for the ejack.


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## RyanTurp (Oct 10, 2021)

Phedder said:


> You don't do much park but you want a twin? Do you ride switch a significant amount of the time, and in demanding situations? Or is your switch riding just cruising on groomers?
> 
> I ask because outside of the park, a directional board has every advantage over a twin. The first board that came to mind was the Libtech Ejack Knife or Dynamo 162W. Slightly setback, slightly tapered, edge tech and camber for grip on ice, and they'll ride switch just fine. As above, I'd be looking for something camber or camrock with edgetech, directional twin or something with a slight set back and taper.


I do ride a lot of switch so I think I’d rather have switch. However I’ve honestly never been on a directional twin so I dont really know how it feels.


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## RyanTurp (Oct 10, 2021)

Elevation212 said:


> I’m your exact specs, ride east coast and out west, my favorite rad dad board is my yes PYL 164w, with a 11.5 boot definitely recommend 264mm or wider deck so you don’t have to go extreme binding angles on old ass knees.
> 
> I don’t jib anymore so can’t speak to that but given what you said I’d buy the jones ultra mountain twin in a 165 wide. Gives you the twin with traction bumps for ice and stiffens the board while lightening it for thrashing around the mountain. 3d rockered nose for powder with great ease of turn imitation but camber between the feet for locked in carves with nice pop jetting out of turns.
> 
> Also the graphics this year are boss


Wow LEGENDARY post man
thank you
I’ve been searching and searching and thats exactly what I’m looking for. Love every aspect of that board choice


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## deadass (Aug 2, 2021)

RyanTurp said:


> I do ride a lot of switch so I think I’d rather have switch. However I’ve honestly never been on a directional twin so I dont really know how it feels.


You can ride switch on any decent board. Riding fresh snow is easier with some taper, setback, and directional shape. Sure, you can ride a true twin in powder but you’ll be a lot happier when your nose stays above the snow. Yes PYL is directional and I think it also is setback and tapered.


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## Snow Hound (Jul 21, 2012)

deadass said:


> Yes PYL is directional and I think it also is setback and tapered.


All of that and still easy enough to ride switch. If fact riding a directional board switch is way cooler than some boring old twin and once you ride one regular there's no going back.


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## Craig64 (Jul 16, 2015)

The "One Board does it all???" is a fantasy that is not really achievable. You want to cover a wide range of conditions to charging Ice Coast to Freeride/Powder. I would suggest a 2 board quiver. An all mountain directional cambered twin for Ice Coast and a Freeride board (directional/tapered/setback camber) for off piste/powdery conditions. The rewards you get out of this far exceed the $$$$ outlay. You can thank me later.

You 100% want a big board (length/width ie 102kg/US11.5), looking at 162W plus. The better the rider you are, the easier it is to handle a longer length. With your weight, it will be very easy to overpower a smaller board ie lose/slide the edge out due to the force you can apply. A longer/stiffer board will give you far far great stability at high speed. I'd be looking in the 165W park range. I'm in this same area and find that in Australia (imagine in the US of A as well) these boards are fortunately always the last to sell due to the smaller number of riders in this area so you can get some good EOS discounts on them. Sadly Snowboarding is an expensive activity but if you grab your hardware at the EOS you can do a 2 board quiver for the cost of practically 1 at full RRP.


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## Craig64 (Jul 16, 2015)

RyanTurp said:


> I do ride a lot of switch so I think I’d rather have switch. However I’ve honestly never been on a directional twin so I dont really know how it feels.


A directonal twin is just a board that is twin between the contacts but has a slightly longer nose forward of these contacts than the tail. This just gives you the ability to get lift in softer /powdery conditions.


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## RyanTurp (Oct 10, 2021)

Craig64 said:


> The "One Board does it all???" is a fantasy that is not really achievable. You want to cover a wide range of conditions to charging Ice Coast to Freeride/Powder. I would suggest a 2 board quiver. An all mountain directional cambered twin for Ice Coast and a Freeride board (directional/tapered/setback camber) for off piste/powdery conditions. The rewards you get out of this far exceed the $$$$ outlay. You can thank me later.
> 
> You 100% want a big board (length/width ie 102kg/US11.5), looking at 162W plus. The better the rider you are, the easier it is to handle a longer length. With your weight, it will be very easy to overpower a smaller board ie lose/slide the edge out due to the force you can apply. A longer/stiffer board will give you far far great stability at high speed. I'd be looking in the 165W park range. I'm in this same area and find that in Australia (imagine in the US of A as well) these boards are fortunately always the last to sell due to the smaller number of riders in this area so you can get some good EOS discounts on them. Sadly Snowboarding is an expensive activity but if you grab your hardware at the EOS you can do a 2 board quiver for the cost of practically 1 at full RRP.
> [/QUOTEbi





Craig64 said:


> The "One Board does it all???" is a fantasy that is not really achievable. You want to cover a wide range of conditions to charging Ice Coast to Freeride/Powder. I would suggest a 2 board quiver. An all mountain directional cambered twin for Ice Coast and a Freeride board (directional/tapered/setback camber) for off piste/powdery conditions. The rewards you get out of this far exceed the $$$$ outlay. You can thank me later.
> 
> You 100% want a big board (length/width ie 102kg/US11.5), looking at 162W plus. The better the rider you are, the easier it is to handle a longer length. With your weight, it will be very easy to overpower a smaller board ie lose/slide the edge out due to the force you can apply. A longer/stiffer board will give you far far great stability at high speed. I'd be looking in the 165W park range. I'm in this same area and find that in Australia (imagine in the US of A as well) these boards are fortunately always the last to sell due to the smaller number of riders in this area so you can get some good EOS discounts on them. Sadly Snowboarding is an expensive activity but if you grab your hardware at the EOS you can do a 2 board quiver for the cost of practically 1 at full RRP.


Bigger than 162W? 
So I’m definitely an experienced rider, but I’ve been on the wrong board for 10 years riding the 2011 Salomon Sanchez 156…..insanely small, straight rocker and such a loose flex. Everything I don’t need right lol
So this is a learning curve for me for sure. That being said I need to get the right set up and enjoy snowboarding more than I already do. 
I’ve been riding since I was a kid and I’m a big guy so I definitely have the power and experience to handle a stiffer, longer, and wider board. It’s just finding the right one and the size that actually works for me.
I’m having a hard time getting my mind set on a directional twin just because I do love the feeling of being completely centered on the board and riding switch as much as I can. If it has such a positive effect when riding in powder than I feel it must effect riding switch just as much. I wish I could just ride one to test it out. 

Thank you for posting I really appreciate it!!


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## Elevation212 (Apr 21, 2019)

RyanTurp said:


> Bigger than 162W?
> So I’m definitely an experienced rider, but I’ve been on the wrong board for 10 years riding the 2011 Salomon Sanchez 156…..insanely small, straight rocker and such a loose flex. Everything I don’t need right lol
> So this is a learning curve for me for sure. That being said I need to get the right set up and enjoy snowboarding more than I already do.
> I’ve been riding since I was a kid and I’m a big guy so I definitely have the power and experience to handle a stiffer, longer, and wider board. It’s just finding the right one and the size that actually works for me.
> ...


if you like being centered, be centered, riding the ice coast you aren’t going to be swimming in powder so I wouldn’t worry too much about setback etc.

I’d look at the weight recommendation for the decks and ensure you are 264mm or wider at the waist, if you check that jones I sent you that’s why I recommended a 165w as it’s good above 220lbs

if you are worried about going so long after your previous deck look volume shifted. I’ve got a buddy riding out of Maine with a ride super pig, he slays all over the mountain, you would slot in on a 159 with that deck


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## garikgarik (Dec 15, 2011)

Freestyle and powder on a big long twin, or freestyle and powder on a smaller more flexible twin. 
i’d want the shortest and flexible board for a freestyle, but these boards should be ridden fast in powder, but to ride them fast in powder one has to be a very good rider) powder and old tracks beneath the powder twist freestyle twins torsionally and longitudinally, kinda hard to maintain and easy to loose a balance.
Bigger, longer, stiffer twins are harder to freestyle with, and still suck in freeride situations compared to directional, tapered boards with freeride flex, especially for bigger riders.


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## Coaster (Oct 10, 2021)

RyanTurp said:


> Hey everyone, been having a real hard time finding the right “do it all” board to buy. Me being almost 6’5” about 225lbs 11.5 shoe size I don’t know if I need a wide board or not. I’m in the east coast so we get very harsh conditions all winter from washy slush to straight ice.
> I don’t do much park but love side hits and some jibbing and would definitely like a twin board. Also get into quite a bit of back country and powder riding.
> I don’t want to buy multiple boards so I’m looking for the best “do it all” out there.
> I’ve been looking at these: capita doa/super doa, Salomon huckknife, rossignol jibsaw, Rome mod
> ...


GILSON!!!


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## Craig64 (Jul 16, 2015)

RyanTurp said:


> Bigger than 162W?
> So I’m definitely an experienced rider, but I’ve been on the wrong board for 10 years riding the 2011 Salomon Sanchez 156…..insanely small, straight rocker and such a loose flex. Everything I don’t need right lol
> So this is a learning curve for me for sure. That being said I need to get the right set up and enjoy snowboarding more than I already do.
> I’ve been riding since I was a kid and I’m a big guy so I definitely have the power and experience to handle a stiffer, longer, and wider board. It’s just finding the right one and the size that actually works for me.
> ...











Salomon Sanchez Snowboard 2011


Read or share reviews of the Salomon Sanchez Snowboard 2011 or shop similar Snowboards




www.evo.com





FFS you are on a tiny noodle of a park board....., *flex rating of a 1*, WW 149 at @157 when you are 102kg and 193cm/ US11.5. You are way over the weight level of this board. Basically, if you are a good rider you can be down the bottom end of a weight range and if you are a beginner you can be at the top of the weight range.
You need a board with how and where you are going to ride. Now for me at 192cm/93-100kg depending on the time of the year, I could ride a 146 park board on the icy piste but would I like it....., absolutely no way Jose. Years ago when I only had a one board quiver I took my Custom to mega powdery Niseko, Hokkaido and it went unreal...., so I thought. When I look at the video's now I see my stance is very to the rear whereas now with a dedicated powder board you can ride centred in a relaxed stance and in waist deep powder the board does practically all the work for you. The difference in riding and the joy it gives you is so amazing I can't recommend it enough. Any people in here with a quiver will 100% tell you the same thing. 

Being almost a pensioner, Park is the very last thing I want to do...., so I don't buy a *PARK* board. I want to charge with stability at very high speed and smash slashes in banks and sidehits. I'm constantly looking for powdery areas to ride into and slash around. So I choose a snowboard for this and ride a stiff *All Mountain* direction twin (166W) in Australia on the piste. When it gets powdery I go to a tapered setback directional camber which gives me lift, a centred superior powder performance and stability with camber back on the piste to the lift bases. In full on powdery conditions a dedicated powder board is an ultimate Godsent. 

This is what you need to consider when you look for a board. I have heaps of people that bring me boards to service and they are soft noodle park boards and they don't ride in that area. They are just all mountain riders.


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## Elevation212 (Apr 21, 2019)

Craig64 said:


> Salomon Sanchez Snowboard 2011
> 
> 
> Read or share reviews of the Salomon Sanchez Snowboard 2011 or shop similar Snowboards
> ...


Nice write up, I’m 108 kg, 196cm, I’ve been looking for a good board in rutted out hard pack/ hard moguls/ tracked trees. Any suggestions? I feel like most my decks aren’t flexy enough to roll through the bumps but worry going too soft will lose edge hold.

Also may just be a physics issue but would love any advice

Current quiver is a yes pyl 164w, a frame 169, archetype 160w, pp 157, headspace 155w


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## Craig64 (Jul 16, 2015)

Elevation212 said:


> Nice write up, I’m 108 kg, 196cm, I’ve been looking for a good board in rutted out hard pack/ hard moguls/ tracked trees. Any suggestions? I feel like most my decks aren’t flexy enough to roll through the bumps but worry going too soft will lose edge hold.
> 
> Also may just be a physics issue but would love any advice
> 
> Current quiver is a yes pyl 164w, a frame 169, archetype 160w, pp 157, headspace 155w


Hard packed moguls aren't a friend for Snowboarders. Being a larger/heavier rider we are unfortunately cursed with the bigger/stiffer board you need to option too. You have the power and strength to move it around but nothing can replace being on a shorter board with tighter sidecut to maneuver around the trees. In powder you can slash the tail out a lot to help you radiate a tighter line. I wash the speed way off through moguls which helps negotiate it easier or better still, ride around them.


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## Elevation212 (Apr 21, 2019)

Craig64 said:


> Hard packed moguls aren't a friend for Snowboarders. Being a larger/heavier rider we are unfortunately cursed with the bigger/stiffer board you need to option too. You have the power and strength to move it around but nothing can replace being on a shorter board with tighter sidecut to maneuver around the trees. In powder you can slash the tail out a lot to help you radiate a tighter line. I wash the speed way off through moguls which helps negotiate it easier or better still, ride around them.


Thnx you nailed my problem, it’s picking up too much speed, I love tight trees and bumps with powder but riding primarily east coast US with primarily skiers i am in tracked out trees or moguls more then I’d like to be. Any tricks for bleeding speed in firm moguls?


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## wrathfuldeity (Oct 5, 2007)

RyanTurp said:


> I don’t do much park but *love side hits and some jibbing and would definitely like a twin board. Also get into quite a bit of back country and powder riding.*


Ideally, you want 2 boards. A directional cambered twin for side hits and jibbing. The other, being an S-profile...which is a directional cambered twin with some rocker in a slightly longer nose...such as an Amplid Creamer...see below link.

My 2 cents, ur a big man with some years of riding...you don't want some noodle nor rocker in the middle...hell your weight is going to rocker the middle anyway. What you want is some contact points in the nose and tail along with some good edge hold...all along the full edge...get a stiff cambered twin for goofing around on. As or powder and bc...get the Creamer.


Amplid Creamer | Snowboard | Snowcountry


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## RobPowderjunkie (Oct 7, 2021)

Utra mountain twin is a boss choice as they already told you!! But if you prioritize powder riding over switch riding etc, you might also wanna look into the Jones Flaghsip. With your specs I would definitely go with the 169W! You´re a big guy


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## bschmitty34 (Oct 15, 2020)

RyanTurp said:


> Wow LEGENDARY post man
> thank you
> I’ve been searching and searching and thats exactly what I’m looking for. Love every aspect of that board choice


Had to reply because I may be considered a "rad dad" and I'm a similar size at 6'4'' 215 with size 12 boots. I picked up Mountain Twin 162w for my every day board last year and I'm pretty happy with it. I'm on the west coast and avoid ice days whenever possible so can't really speak to that, but that board and size works well for me. I know the Ultra Mountain Twin is similar, I think stiffer, but I'm sure either would be a pretty solid choice. Plus the graphics are a little more dad friendly that others...if you care about type of stuff.


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## Paxford (Jan 7, 2019)

RyanTurp said:


> Hey everyone, been having a real hard time finding the right “do it all” board to buy. Me being almost 6’5” about 225lbs 11.5 shoe size I don’t know if I need a wide board or not. I’m in the east coast so we get very harsh conditions all winter from washy slush to straight ice.
> I don’t do much park but love side hits and some jibbing and would definitely like a twin board. Also get into quite a bit of back country and powder riding.
> I don’t want to buy multiple boards so I’m looking for the best “do it all” out there.
> I’ve been looking at these: capita doa/super doa, Salomon huckknife, rossignol jibsaw, Rome mod
> ...


FWIW I love my Rossi Jibsaw HD 160w. It isn’t wide enough but very few boards are and they are usually powder or party boards.


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## Wiredsport (Sep 16, 2009)

RyanTurp said:


> Hey everyone, been having a real hard time finding the right “do it all” board to buy. Me being almost 6’5” about 225lbs 11.5 shoe size I don’t know if I need a wide board or not.


Hi Ryan,

11.5 Shoe size is a US 10.5 snowboard boot size. That does not require a "wide" or "mid-wide" board (quotes used because there is no industry standard for these terms, and they vary greatly by brand and model). Sizing by shoe size, however, is not the best way to go about it. All gear should really be sized by barefoot measurement. If you have a minute please take your four measurements. Let's get this right for you!

Rider height is not a factor in board sizing, but barefoot measurement is crucial to getting this right. Please measure your feet using this method:

Kick your heel (barefoot please, no socks) back against a wall. Mark the floor exactly at the tip of your toe (the one that sticks out furthest - which toe this is will vary by rider). Measure from the mark on the floor to the wall. That is your foot length and is the only measurement that you will want to use. Measure in centimeters if possible, but if not, take inches and multiply by 2.54 (example: an 11.25 inch foot x 2.54 = 28.57 centimeters). For width please place the inside (medial side) of your foot against a wall. Please then measure from the wall out to the widest point on the lateral (outside) of your foot.


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## bob2356 (Jul 13, 2012)

RyanTurp said:


> Hey everyone, been having a real hard time finding the right “do it all” board to buy. Me being almost 6’5” about 225lbs 11.5 shoe size I don’t know if I need a wide board or not. I’m in the east coast so we get very harsh conditions all winter from washy slush to straight ice.
> I don’t do much park but love side hits and some jibbing and would definitely like a twin board. Also get into quite a bit of back country and powder riding.
> I don’t want to buy multiple boards so I’m looking for the best “do it all” out there.
> I’ve been looking at these: capita doa/super doa, Salomon huckknife, rossignol jibsaw, Rome mod
> ...


There really is no do everything board. A board with a big rocker nose to lift you up in powder and carvey mid board area under feet to handle the firm is as close as you can get but it's not going to be a twin. Tough calls all around. 

I just started riding a Stranda shorty. Very good board. Might be worth looking at their line. A big portion of serous riders on my east coast mountain are lib tech oriented.


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## TMAS6033 (Sep 22, 2021)

Hi Ryan,

Figured I'd chime in with my two cents given that I recently went through the process of selecting a new board using this forum and professional consultation as well...

I'm an East Coast guy as well. 5' 11", 195 lbs, 11.5- 12 boot depending on the boot. I was looking for some of the same things as you, except I wanted something that would slay the whole mountain including the park. Ice is an obv. concern as you mentioned. I ended up with a Nitro Team Pro 162W and a Ride Algorythm 160W. I haven't ridden either yet but I selected them for very specific reasons.

Based on what you've said and other's comments, I agree that you will definitely benefit from a longer/ wider board. The added length will help support your weight and improve stability at speed, edge hold, carving dynamics, and float in powder. I agree that 162W+ is probably the range you're in. Especially at 250+ lbs., if you feel you can handle it, and since you're not a dedicated park guy, longer will be better for the aforementioned reasons. Maybe even a 165W (ballpark) would be best.

Also, to chime in on the directional twin conversation, you probably will not even notice much of a difference riding switch on a directional twin. Any differences you do notice will probably be quickly adjusted to, given that you're going to be adjusting to a new board, in general. Also because you mentioned it as being important (although we don't really get much pow on the EC lol), the directional twin will give you better float in powder when riding directionally but this will also be less significant when compared to a freeride/ true powder board. This mirrors some of the comments being made about a 2 board quiver being your best option. There truly isn't a "does everything best" board on the market. You will inevitably sacrifice something somewhere with one board.

That being said, because of the lack of pow we get on the EC. I'd say prioritize something that will give you the best of both riding switch and improved float in powder, aka, the directional twin. However, if you value riding switch more, go true twin, if you value float in pow more, look for a freeride/ powder board (again, this seems somewhat counter intuitive to me being that there's so much ice on the EC but totally your call!). Also, I'd stay away from reverse camber/ rocker and hybrid camber boards as they will float better in pow but do not do as well on ice. Camber is king for hold on ice. Edge tech. like Magnetraction works great for awhile but will inevitably dull and ultimately fail on ice. It's also not nearly as easy to tune and keep sharp. Trust me, I bought that hype several years back and regretted it. I'm sure it's great in some scenarios but not great on the EC, especially if you plan on owning the board for awhile. Again, I'd suggest true camber for ultimate edge hold on ice. Nitro has some of the best sidecuts in the game in this regard. Also, a cam/rocker could be ideal for you as well. You will get easier turn initiation, better float in powder, and a little more playfulness due to small rocker sections in tip/ tail but the camber under foot will give you edge hold, power, and pop. You will sacrifice some edge hold compared to a true camber board but you also gain the aforementioned benefits. It def. fits the rad dad bill nicely and is as close to "the best of all worlds" as it gets IMHO. Thus why I went true camber with my Nitro for hard, fast, icy riding and cam/ rock with the Algorythm for a still seriously capable but more playful/ laid back ride. Also, one last suggestion. Given what you've described, I'd look for something around 7/10 flex.

Hope this helps!

TM


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## TMAS6033 (Sep 22, 2021)

Oh, and another thing! A lot of people on here will tell you conflicting info and make generalizations about boot size and, subsequently, board width. People see/ hear a guy say he wears size 12 boots and automatically assume the boots are ill-fitted and too big. I ran into that I'm my thread lol. That being said, it is true that a lot of people don't wear correctly sized boots. 1/2 to 1 size down is generally a good rule of thumb but it's not an exact science. Neither is mondopoint sizing. It all comes down to the individual boot. Put the boot on, kick your heal back, and tighten up. They should be tight! Your toes should touch the front but should not be crunched or bent. The way I "know" my size, in a given boot, is that I order the same boot in multiple sizes, i.e., 11, 11.5, 12 and return what I don't need. It sucks spending $1400 on Adidas.com lol but you'll get it back when the return processes and it's totally worth knowing that you have the right size boots on. Once you know your true and accurate boot size, you'll know whether you need a wide board or not. Cheers!


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## SURFDAD (Nov 11, 2019)

66 yr old blue groomer ez carver 210 lbs 6 1 size 12 wide boot 
Korua pencil 164 does it all for me


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## bob2356 (Jul 13, 2012)

Elevation212 said:


> Thnx you nailed my problem, it’s picking up too much speed, I love tight trees and bumps with powder but riding primarily east coast US with primarily skiers i am in tracked out trees or moguls more then I’d like to be. Any tricks for bleeding speed in firm moguls?


I've been pounding east coast moguls for 30 years. I used to have a pile of boards cracked right in front the front binding from diving them into moguls and bending the heck out of them.. New boards luckily don't do that any more.

Boards accelerate faster than skis in moguls so if you follow the skier line you will be moving way too fast in a very short time. You need to carve further up on the face and more to the front than skiers to bleed speed. Bump skiers tend to hit about 1/3 of the way around the mogul face and about 2/3 of the way down the face. On a board you almost need to hit right on the face about 1/2 of the way up with lots of edge. The good thing is you frequently have some loose snow once you get above the icy skier line. NEVER get low enough on the mogul for the tail to get trapped in the trough. Very bad.

You need to get a kind of jump/hop turn going where you dive the nose, load the edge, and pop off the tail to have enough momentum to whip the board around. You sort of end up sucking up the back leg and swinging the back foot WAY around and fast. You have to really be willing to commit totally on the toe side. If you do it right you end up with the board way behind you totally out of sight on toe side like it's gong to hit you in the azz. You also need to have a LOT of body contraction and extension. . Do it right and your stomach muscles will be aching from sucking the board up and swinging around so much. Keeping low is good. My buds call my mogul riding the stepped on cockroach stance. I ride feet foward 30/25 and a narrow stance which I feel lets me get the board around faster. .

All of this applies to trees too. My rule of tree sking is never go faster than I'm are willing to smash my face into a tree. Rule 2 is never ever look at the trees. Always look at the gaps.


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## drblast (Feb 28, 2017)

bob2356 said:


> I've been pounding east coast moguls for 30 years. I used to have a pile of boards cracked right in front the front binding from diving them into mougals and bending the heck out of them.. New boards luckily don't do that any more.
> 
> Boards accelerate faster than skis in moguls so if you follow the skier line you will be moving way too fast in a very short time. You need to carve further up on the face and more to the front than skiers to bleed speed. Bump skiers tend to hit about 1/3 of the way around the mougal face and about 2/3 of the way down the face. On a board you almost need to hit right on the face about 1/2 of the way up with lots of edge. The good thing is you frequently have some loose snow once you get above the icy skier line. NEVER get low enough on the mougal for the tail to get trapped in the trough. Very bad.
> 
> ...


I want to ride behind you and learn all this.


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## bob2356 (Jul 13, 2012)

drblast said:


> I want to ride behind you and learn all this.


Not this year, I'm overseas. Heading out to the Remarkables this afternoon. Probably one of the best big mountain steep open bowls extreme skiing there is. Too bad I'm not at all into that. No moguls, trees, or edge running crud is pretty frigging boring as far as I'm concerned. Hope to get back to the big K by March for spring skiing, but I"ll be relearning my mogul skills for a while after a 2 year lay off. . It is NOT like riding a bike


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## Wiredsport (Sep 16, 2009)

TMAS6033 said:


> Oh, and another thing! A lot of people on here will tell you conflicting info and make generalizations about boot size and, subsequently, board width. People see/ hear a guy say he wears size 12 boots and automatically assume the boots are ill-fitted and too big. I ran into that I'm my thread lol. That being said, it is true that a lot of people don't wear correctly sized boots. 1/2 to 1 size down is generally a good rule of thumb but it's not an exact science. Neither is mondopoint sizing. It all comes down to the individual boot. Put the boot on, kick your heal back, and tighten up. They should be tight! Your toes should touch the front but should not be crunched or bent. The way I "know" my size, in a given boot, is that I order the same boot in multiple sizes, i.e., 11, 11.5, 12 and return what I don't need. It sucks spending $1400 on Adidas.com lol but you'll get it back when the return processes and it's totally worth knowing that you have the right size boots on. Once you know your true and accurate boot size, you'll know whether you need a wide board or not. Cheers!


Hi TMA,
A few things if I might. The OP wrote in his first post that he has a size 11.5 shoe. It is important to note that shoe size and snowboard boot size are never the same. If someone has been sizing boots based on shoe size they should always go back and get their 4 barefoot measurements. Mondopoint sizing, matching length and width will work every time and it will be the correct fit for a snowboard boot however, the boots will not fit like shoes. 

Just touching the front of the liner is too large. We look for firm pressure into the compliant materials of the liner at both the toes and the heels. I have pasted our fit tips below. Snowboard boots pack out roughly 1 cm (one full boot size) over the first few weeks of riding. A boot purchased as just touching will be too large on day one and way to large after break in.

Your boots should be snug!
The most common complaint about boots is that they are too loose, not too tight. The junction between rider and board begins with the boot, as it is in the most direct contact with the rider. When fitting boots, use the following method: A. Slip into the boot. B. Kick your heel back against the ground several times to drive it back into the boot's heel pocket. C. Lace the boot tightly, as though you were going to ride. NOTE: This is where most sizing mistakes are made. A snowboard boot is shaped like an upside down "7". The back has a good degree of forward lean. Thus, when you drop into the boot, your heel may be resting up to an inch away from the back of the boot, and your toes may be jammed into the front of the boot. Until the boot is tightly laced, you will not know if it is a proper fit. D. Your toes should now have firm pressure against the front of the boot. As this is the crux of sizing, let's discuss firm pressure: When you flex your knee forward hard, the pressure should lighten, or cease, as your toes pull back. At no time should you feel numbness or lose circulation. Your toes will be in contact with the end of the boot, unlike in a properly fit street or athletic shoe (snowboard boots are designed to fit more snugly than your other shoes). When you have achieved this combination of firm pressure and no circulation loss, you have found the correct size!

STOKED!


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## TMAS6033 (Sep 22, 2021)

Wiredsport said:


> Hi TMA,
> A few things if I might. The OP wrote in his first post that he has a size 11.5 shoe. It is important to note that shoe size and snowboard boot size are never the same. If someone has been sizing boots based on shoe size they should always go back and get their 4 barefoot measurements. Mondopoint sizing, matching length and width will work every time and it will be the correct fit for a snowboard boot however, the boots will not fit like shoes.
> 
> Just touching the front of the liner is too large. We look for firm pressure into the compliant materials of the liner at both the toes and the heels. I have pasted our fit tips below. Snowboard boots pack out roughly 1 cm (one full boot size) over the first few weeks of riding. A boot purchased as just touching will be too large on day one and way to large after break in.
> ...


Hey Wired,
First, no disrespect or argumentativeness intended. You clearly understand boot sizing well. I agree with almost everything you said and feel like I said many similar things just less descriptively. Kick your heal back, check. Tighten, check. Firm pressure, check (I meant against the front of the boot, not the liner). They will fit differently than shoes, check. They will be snug, check. Fit will vary by boot, check. A lot of people's boots are not properly fitted, check. So with all those things, I'm in total agreement. The only thing that I will dispute is mondopoint sizing being the end all/ be all. According to mondopoint I should be wearing a 10.5- 11 depending on the manufacturers size chart (most commonly a 10.5). For reference, I wear a 12.5 sneaker (professionally fitted by a local running store). I have never fit a 10.5 boot. Using all the aforementioned fitting tips, I wear an 11.5 in my most recently purchased boots. My Nike Zoom Kaiju's are a 12 and even after pack-out my toes still lightly brush the front of the boot. I've heard many riders say this exact same thing. How then can I rely solely on mondopoint? Thanks!


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## Wiredsport (Sep 16, 2009)

TMAS6033 said:


> Hey Wired,
> First, no disrespect or argumentativeness intended. You clearly understand boot sizing well. I agree with almost everything you said and feel like I said many similar things just less descriptively. Kick your heal back, check. Tighten, check. Firm pressure, check (I meant against the front of the boot, not the liner). They will fit differently than shoes, check. They will be snug, check. Fit will vary by boot, check. A lot of people's boots are not properly fitted, check. So with all those things, I'm in total agreement. The only thing that I will dispute is mondopoint sizing being the end all/ be all. According to mondopoint I should be wearing a 10.5- 11 depending on the manufacturers size chart (most commonly a 10.5). For reference, I wear a 12.5 sneaker (professionally fitted by a local running store). I have never fit a 10.5 boot. Using all the aforementioned fitting tips, I wear an 11.5 in my most recently purchased boots. My Nike Zoom Kaiju's are a 12 and even after pack-out my toes still lightly brush the front of the boot. I've heard many riders say this exact same thing. How then can I rely solely on mondopoint? Thanks!


Hi TMA,

I would strongly suggest that you get your barefoot width measurements as well. This can change your riding life! I don't mean to be pushy but we hear the above all the time. When experienced riders are above their Mondo size it is very often that they are matching only Mondo length (which will never work for wider feet). 

If you have a moment please provide your four barefoot measurements.

Please measure your feet using this method:

Kick your heel (barefoot please, no socks) back against a wall. Mark the floor exactly at the tip of your toe (the one that sticks out furthest - which toe this is will vary by rider). Measure from the mark on the floor to the wall. That is your foot length and is the only measurement that you will want to use. Measure in centimeters if possible, but if not, take inches and multiply by 2.54 (example: an 11.25 inch foot x 2.54 = 28.57 centimeters). For width please place the inside (medial side) of your foot against a wall. Please then measure from the wall out to the widest point on the lateral (outside) of your foot.


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## TMAS6033 (Sep 22, 2021)

Wiredsport said:


> Hi TMA,
> A few things if I might. The OP wrote in his first post that he has a size 11.5 shoe. It is important to note that shoe size and snowboard boot size are never the same. If someone has been sizing boots based on shoe size they should always go back and get their 4 barefoot measurements. Mondopoint sizing, matching length and width will work every time and it will be the correct fit for a snowboard boot however, the boots will not fit like shoes.
> 
> Just touching the front of the liner is too large. We look for firm pressure into the compliant materials of the liner at both the toes and the heels. I have pasted our fit tips below. Snowboard boots pack out roughly 1 cm (one full boot size) over the first few weeks of riding. A boot purchased as just touching will be too large on day one and way to large after break in.
> ...





Wiredsport said:


> Hi TMA,
> 
> I would strongly suggest that you get your barefoot width measurements as well. This can change your riding life! I don't mean to be pushy but we hear the above all the time. When experienced riders are above their Mondo size it is very often that they are matching only Mondo length (which will never work for wider feet).
> 
> ...


Hey Wired,
That makes total sense and has played into my thinking as well, as the run shop told me I have moderately wide feet. Here are my barefoot measurements..

Right foot: length= 27.3cm, width= 10.4cm
Left foot: length= 27.3cm, width= 10.75cm 

Thanks!


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## Wiredsport (Sep 16, 2009)

TMAS6033 said:


> Hey Wired,
> That makes total sense and has played into my thinking as well, as the run shop told me I have moderately wide feet. Here are my barefoot measurements..
> 
> Right foot: length= 27.3cm, width= 10.4cm
> ...


Hi TMA,

Got it. 27.3 cm is mid range for mondopoint 275 or size 9.5 US in snowboard boots. The range for this size is 27.1 to 27.5 cm. Your width however is EE which does require a very specific group of boots. Please have a look at the chart below. You will see that at size 9.5 you need an EE width. If you look down the "standard" D width column, you will see that you cannot match your foot width until you get to size 12 (your current boot size). All standard width snowboard boots will feel too short for you at your actual Mondo size. This is due to the arced shape of the toebox. I am sure all of this sounds bizarre and unlikely and it will require a bit of a leap of faith due to your past sizing experiences. On the upside, if you have been riding larger boots and subsequently wider boards and larger bindings, you are in for a HUGE performance leap when you correct this (and likely the best season of your life) 

Please keep in mind that this is not at all unusual. I size many people for boots every day (coming up on 30 years now) and I come across this every day.

Burton makes great boots in EEE width. I would strongly suggest the Ruler Wide, Photon Wide or Ion Wide in size 9.5. I don't suggest their Step on models.



https://www.wiredsport.com/width2.JPG


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## TMAS6033 (Sep 22, 2021)

Wiredsport said:


> Hi TMA,
> 
> Got it. 27.3 cm is mid range for mondopoint 275 or size 9.5 US in snowboard boots. The range for this size is 27.1 to 27.5 cm. Your width however is EE which does require a very specific group of boots. Please have a look at the chart below. You will see that at size 9.5 you need an EE width. If you look down the "standard" D width column, you will see that you cannot match your foot width until you get to size 12 (your current boot size). All standard width snowboard boots will feel too short for you at your actual Mondo size. This is due to the arced shape of the toebox. I am sure all of this sounds bizarre and unlikely and it will require a bit of a leap of faith due to your past sizing experiences. On the upside, if you have been riding larger boots and subsequently wider boards and larger bindings, you are in for a HUGE performance leap when you correct this (and likely the best season of your life)
> 
> ...


That makes a lot of sense (compensating length for width all these years). In the back of my mind I knew I was probably doing so but didn't think it was such a big deal. I still find it hard to believe that a 9.5 wide will fit me but I do believe you and am willing to try it out. I just wish there were more wide boot options on the market. That being said, I've been riding wide boards and L/ XL bindings for years. At a 9.5 boot, however, it seems I could be riding regular width boards? You make some pretty bold (not a bad thing =)) claims about doing so being a total game changer which is obviously intriguing haha. I already ride at a pretty high level with the park being the exception. How will riding a regular width board make such a huge difference for me? Since your last post, I've been reading a lot about normal width vs. wide board and there seems to be a lot of debate. I've read several of your comments about barefoot size being the most import factor to determine width, being that this in how leverage on the edges is ultimately created at the center inserts, which makes a lot of sense. However, some people argue that wide boards are just generally better. Interested to hear your take on this as well.

Also, I'm now rethinking everything lol as I have a brand new Nitro Team Pro 162W, a Ride Algorythm 160W, a set of Rome Katana bindings, size L/ XL, a set of Flux XF bindings, size L/ XL, and two pairs of Adidas Adv Tacticals sitting in front of me and I'm wondering if I now need to return everything for normal width versions of the boards, smaller size bindings, and Burton wide boots (luckily all still doable, given that it's all still brand new). Being that I fall into that 27.5 range, what size board widths should I be looking at? Also, I know most manufacturers list waist width but it seem width at the insert points is more important, however, most munfacturers don't list this number. How do I factor this into the equation? Thanks again! You may be saving me from wasting thousands of dollars on less than ideal gear.


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## Wiredsport (Sep 16, 2009)

TMAS6033 said:


> That makes a lot of sense (compensating length for width all these years). In the back of my mind I knew I was probably doing so but didn't think it was such a big deal. I still find it hard to believe that a 9.5 wide will fit me but I do believe you and am willing to try it out. I just wish there were more wide boot options on the market. That being said, I've been riding wide boards and L/ XL bindings for years. At a 9.5 boot, however, it seems I could be riding regular width boards? You make some pretty bold (not a bad thing =)) claims about doing so being a total game changer which is obviously intriguing haha. I already ride at a pretty high level with the park being the exception. How will riding a regular width board make such a huge difference for me? Since your last post, I've been reading a lot about normal width vs. wide board and there seems to be a lot of debate. I've read several of your comments about barefoot size being the most import factor to determine width, being that this in how leverage on the edges is ultimately created at the center inserts, which makes a lot of sense. However, some people argue that wide boards are just generally better. Interested to hear your take on this as well.
> 
> Also, I'm now rethinking everything lol as I have a brand new Nitro Team Pro 162W, a Ride Algorythm 160W, a set of Rome Katana bindings, size L/ XL, a set of Flux XF bindings, size L/ XL, and two pairs of Adidas Adv Tacticals sitting in front of me and I'm wondering if I now need to return everything for normal width versions of the boards, smaller size bindings, and Burton wide boots (luckily all still doable, given that it's all still brand new). Being that I fall into that 27.5 range, what size board widths should I be looking at? Also, I know most manufacturers list waist width but it seem width at the insert points is more important, however, most munfacturers don't list this number. How do I factor this into the equation? Thanks again! You may be saving me from wasting thousands of dollars on less than ideal gear.


Hi TMA,

Those are great questions that really cut to the heart of all snowboard gear sizing. Lets' start with the sure things. . Everyone wants to ride with as little excess boot as they can. That is just all win. Less weight, less drag, more immediate response, etc. This also allows the smallest possible binding. Again, all win. The correct binding size for the boot and foot will offer better support, less drag, lighter weight, etc.

Boards. You want to match board width to barefoot length in all instances with boots out of the equation. For all newer riders and most other riders (myself included), a bit of barefoot overhang (toes and heels extending slightly past the boards edges) is ideal. That allows super easy and positive turn initiation and edge to edge control. As long as the overhang is not too great you can still edge hard without boot bite. This covers all normal riding. I know that you will have a blest on a board sized like this. You will be shocked by how intuitive and immediate riding becomes.

As you have noted there are riders who do shred on wide boards. A lot of the time they are trenching out super deep carves and value that side of riding heavily. Quite a few (not all) have also adapted other gear elements (bindings in particular) to assist with this. All who do it well, have spent time adapting their technique to this style of riding. Powder boards also may be wider, although that is really a different beast. 

For you I would order a set of Burton Wide boots in size 9.5. I do think you are going to return all of that other gear. 9.5 is a Medium binding in Burton and can be medium in Flux as well. I would not suggest a wide board for you with size 9.5. I have 11.5 boots and ride standard width, so you can see where my bias is . 

STOKED!


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## SushiLover (Sep 17, 2020)

@ Wiredsport Will a burton *wide* ruler boot (size 9.5) fit into a medium union binding base plate (strata & atlas)? I have a regular ruler and the width of the boot barely fits into the base plate? I can't imagine a wider boot will fit into the same binding?


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## Wiredsport (Sep 16, 2009)

SushiLover said:


> @ Wiredsport Will a burton *wide* ruler boot (size 9.5) fit into a medium union binding base plate (strata & atlas)? I have a regular ruler and the width of the boot barely fits into the base plate? I can't imagine a wider boot will fit into the same binding?


Hi Sushi,
I am not sure about that combo. In almost instances, yes, but you will need to check those specifics.


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## TMAS6033 (Sep 22, 2021)

Wiredsport said:


> Hi TMA,
> 
> Those are great questions that really cut to the heart of all snowboard gear sizing. Lets' start with the sure things. . Everyone wants to ride with as little excess boot as they can. That is just all win. Less weight, less drag, more immediate response, etc. This also allows the smallest possible binding. Again, all win. The correct binding size for the boot and foot will offer better support, less drag, lighter weight, etc.
> 
> ...


Ok haha _sweats a little_, I'm going to take this all on faith and listen to your advice! It's a huge leap and hard for me as it's counter to everything I've known for the past 15+ years but I'll report back to you.


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## Yeahti87 (Jan 17, 2019)

I think it might be helpful for other viewers of this story with the happy ending.









New Board Shopping... HELP!


Rome National This is def on the my list rn. Need to do a bit more of a deep dive on it but it looks good up front. They list it as an all-mountain/ freeride board on Evo. Rome's site is down atm so I wasn't able to get that info from the source. How does it do in the park?




www.snowboardingforum.com





The boot fit question was raised at the stage of discussing your gear selection.

Btw, I’m your feet width EE 277 longer foot and Adidas 275 mondo fits with some custom insole tricks. 280 I used to ride so the nominal mondo didn’t need any tricks.

Boot camp sticky:








Boot Fit Boot Camp


I'm becoming a broken record for people asking about boot fit. Referring them to the Wiredsport thread is a bit confusing so I'm going to put all the basic info into one place here. If you're new to snowboarding, or snowboard boot sizing, here are things that you need to know. There is a lot of...




www.snowboardingforum.com


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## TMAS6033 (Sep 22, 2021)

Yeahti87 said:


> I think it might be helpful for other viewers of this story with the happy ending.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'll report back when my new boots arrive. Just ordered the Burton Photon, 9.5 wide. It's kind of irritating that manufacturers haven't figured out that this is more of an issue because you're seriously limited in boot choice. If this is as big of a game changer as it seems it could be, then more people need to be aware. I'm never opposed to listening to wisdom but when you don't even know that this is a thing and have 15+ years of riding experience at a high level, it's not easy to let go of everything you think you know. But anyways, I'll let you all know how the boots fit and how my riding goes this year. I've already started the process of exchanging everything. Cheers fellas!


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## TMAS6033 (Sep 22, 2021)

Yeahti87 said:


> I think it might be helpful for other viewers of this story with the happy ending.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Also, regarding the Adidas. I had ordered and returned a pair of 11s (mondo 28) and my toes were def crammed so going down to 10.5 (mondo 27.6) seems like a no go. I'd love it if that were not the case but I'll try these 9.5 wides and see what the deal is.


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## Yeahti87 (Jan 17, 2019)

TMAS6033 said:


> I'll report back when my new boots arrive. Just ordered the Burton Photon, 9.5 wide. It's kind of irritating that manufacturers haven't figured out that this is more of an issue because you're seriously limited in boot choice. If this is as big of a game changer as it seems it could be, then more people need to be aware. I'm never opposed to listening to wisdom but when you don't even know that this is a thing and have 15+ years of riding experience at a high level, it's not easy to let go of everything you think you know. But anyways, I'll let you all know how the boots fit and how my riding goes this year. I've already started the process of exchanging everything. Cheers fellas!


That’s exactly the way it works if someone has many years under their belt. Absolutely no pointing out to you or anything negative. Just a perfect example that it is well-worth to double check and measure your feet for any lurkers here.

Re boards - they will be actually more responsive than they would be in your 11.5 US due to the reasons mentioned by Wiredsport.

I personally still prefer wides with 9,5 US but there are no issues with riding the regular widths unless I push it hard in a carve. You have a full choice now and that’s the best thing here.


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## TMAS6033 (Sep 22, 2021)

Yeahti87 said:


> That’s exactly the way it works if someone has many years behind their belt. Absolutely no pointing out to you or anything negative. Just a perfect example that it is well-worth to double check and measure your feet for any lurkers here.
> 
> Re boards - they will be actually more responsive than they would be in your 11.5 US due to the reasons mentioned by Wiredsport.
> 
> I personally still prefer wides with 9,5 US but there are no issues with riding the regular widths unless I push it hard in a carve. You have a full choice now and that’s the best thing here.


Appreciate that. I'm excited to see how big of a difference I actually notice. Someone needs to start a company that offers a series of dedicated wide boot options. Total game changer lol.


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## Snowdaddy (Feb 2, 2018)

Going to chime in and say I also ride my mondo point in wide Photon boots. The first runs feel weird but they pack out in a day or two.


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## Kevington (Feb 8, 2018)

TMAS6033 said:


> I still find it hard to believe that a 9.5 wide will fit me but I do believe you and am willing to try it out. I just wish there were more wide boot options on the market. That being said, I've been riding wide boards and L/ XL bindings for years. At a 9.5 boot, however, it seems I could be riding regular width boards? You make some pretty bold (not a bad thing =)) claims about doing so being a total game changer which is obviously intriguing haha. I already ride at a pretty high level with the park being the exception. How will riding a regular width board make such a huge difference for me?


You, my lucky friend, are about to have your mind blown. Please listen to the knowledge @Wiredsport is blessing you with. I was riding 11s and large bindings for 20 years until I measured my feet at 275. I thought there was no way I'd fit 9.5s but sure enough once they break in and if you have the right size bindings too its paradise. So much less pain, so much more control with less effort. Warmer feet as you don't need to lace the boots so tightly or crank the bindings either, both of which stop blood circulation. Also being able to ride pretty much any width of board from 25cm and up is great.


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## Wiredsport (Sep 16, 2009)

Yes, coming from a larger (length) boot, at first the feeling is: this is wrong. It takes a minute to get used to an everywhere fit. Get the heat fit done first thing. That should be considered mandatory . After a few weeks of riding all this will feel entirely normal and when the boots pack out a bit you may miss that first day feel.


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## TMAS6033 (Sep 22, 2021)

Snowdaddy said:


> Going to chime in and say I also ride my mondo point in wide Photon boots. The first runs feel weird but they pack out in a day or two.


Good to know. Thanks!


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## TMAS6033 (Sep 22, 2021)

Kevington said:


> You, my lucky friend, are about to have your mind blown. Please listen to the knowledge @Wiredsport is blessing you with. I was riding 11s and large bindings for 20 years until I measured my feet at 275. I thought there was no way I'd fit 9.5s but sure enough once they break in and if you have the right size bindings too its paradise. So much less pain, so much more control with less effort. Warmer feet as you don't need to lace the boots so tightly or crank the bindings either, both of which stop blood circulation. Also being able to ride pretty much any width of board from 25cm and up is great.


Also good to know. As I'm sitting here thinking about it, I dont ever have much pain but I find myself retightening multiple times throughout the day to avoid heal lift. I always just thought that was normal. I've never noticed any issues with control/ response vs. effort but I also don't know anything else so looking forward to any noticeable changes!


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## TMAS6033 (Sep 22, 2021)

Wiredsport said:


> Yes, coming from a larger (length) boot, at first the feeling is: this is wrong. It takes a minute to get used to an everywhere fit. Get the heat fit done first thing. That should be considered mandatory . After a few weeks of riding all this will feel entirely normal and when the boots pack out a bit you may miss that first day feel.


Again, also good to know. Thanks!!


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## drblast (Feb 28, 2017)

TMAS6033 said:


> I'll report back when my new boots arrive. Just ordered the Burton Photon, 9.5 wide. It's kind of irritating that manufacturers haven't figured out that this is more of an issue because you're seriously limited in boot choice. If this is as big of a game changer as it seems it could be, then more people need to be aware. I'm never opposed to listening to wisdom but when you don't even know that this is a thing and have 15+ years of riding experience at a high level, it's not easy to let go of everything you think you know. But anyways, I'll let you all know how the boots fit and how my riding goes this year. I've already started the process of exchanging everything. Cheers fellas!


This is why we harp on this - when someone comes on and says "I'm 5'10, size US12 boot" a red flag goes up. It's _possible_ that someone that height has a foot that large but it's extremely unlikely. Far more likely is that they have boots that are too large. And _mostly_ that's because of the lack of information available, lots of bad information out there that never goes away, and also a lack of options if you have a wide foot. (There are options, and they're Burton and Salomon and only specific models. Pick one.)

I personally know three people who sized down from 11 to 9.5 after swearing it couldn't be done. Now they know, and try to tell everyone - one guy wouldn't shut up about it the day we met in the lift line, and I was like, "Yeah, I know, I know." I moved down a half size to US10 (shoe size is US11) and it was such a game changer for me I feel like I need to tell everyone. Stuff just _works_ better, I can get into Medium bindings, don't need to worry about wide boards.



TMAS6033 said:


> Also good to know. As I'm sitting here thinking about it, I dont ever have much pain but I find myself retightening multiple times throughout the day to avoid heal lift. I always just thought that was normal. I've never noticed any issues with control/ response vs. effort but I also don't know anything else so looking forwar


A year after I got my properly fitting boots I was on like day 7 of riding in a row and my feet were a little sore. So I decided hey, I'll wear my 10.5's that only have 35 days on 'em, they're really comfy, I'll have some room to flex my feet a bit. I did two runs on those and went back to the car - it was AWFUL. No control, feet hurt, toe bang, every problem imaginable. I couldn't believe the difference and I'd been riding for 15 years in that size. Put my 10's back on and never looked back.


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## Jkb818 (Sep 28, 2019)

I went down about a full boot size in photons because of this forum. Best decision I ever made!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## bazman (Jan 15, 2017)

I went down a size and a half because of Wiresport's obsession with correct sizing. I was previously oversizing due to slightly wide feet. I just needed to search for the ones that fit my foot - it took a while, but so worth it!


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## Elevation212 (Apr 21, 2019)

drblast said:


> This is why we harp on this - when someone comes on and says "I'm 5'10, size US12 boot" a red flag goes up. It's _possible_ that someone that height has a foot that large but it's extremely unlikely. Far more likely is that they have boots that are too large. And _mostly_ that's because of the lack of information available, lots of bad information out there that never goes away, and also a lack of options if you have a wide foot. (There are options, and they're Burton and Salomon and only specific models. Pick one.)
> 
> I personally know three people who sized down from 11 to 9.5 after swearing it couldn't be done. Now they know, and try to tell everyone - one guy wouldn't shut up about it the day we met in the lift line, and I was like, "Yeah, I know, I know." I moved down a half size to US10 (shoe size is US11) and it was such a game changer for me I feel like I need to tell everyone. Stuff just _works_ better, I can get into Medium bindings, don't need to worry about wide boards.
> 
> ...



Preach, 6'5 250, street shoe 12.5-13, riding a 11.5 thraxis and now kinda wish I went 11


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## WigMar (Mar 17, 2019)

I couldn't agree more. I'm riding slightly under mondo in some 11s down from 13s. I had to do a couple of mods, but it transformed my riding in a big way. Proper bootfit is one of the better gifts this forum has given me.


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## TMAS6033 (Sep 22, 2021)

Alright, hello gentleman and shred scholars! Recieved my Photon Wides today. Currently wearing a Photon on my left foot and an ADV tactical on my right. This is me being 100% honest and in no way am I intentionally leaning into bias out of stubbornness, but honestly, the Photons feel way too small. Like painful small. Pain in my heel when flexing at the ankle/ knee, pain in my toe joints as my bones are being pushed back into my other bones lol. They don't feel uncomfortable but manageable upon break-in, they feel painfully too small. Also, I feel like my heel is too big.. like I'm riding up too high in the cup/ bolstering. I know they're not what I'm used to but I truly have an open mind and this is not "uncomfortable", this is painful. It might be helpful to say, at this time, that I'm 5'10", 195 pound, build like a bull. Thus, I have big ankle bones, disproportionately large calves lol, etc.. The only reason I think it might be helpful for me to mention this, is that I think my heel size, ankle size, calf size, even foot height, maybe?, etc.. are other dimensions that are ultimately impacting the boots poor fit. I'm now wondering if perhaps going up a size in the Photons would be a good next triable option? Also, it's fair to mention that these ADVs def. feel way better.. my heel sits better in these.. bolstering right where it should be, and they're snug but not painful. However, I can now tell, with these much smaller Photons on, that these ADVs are too big.. small amount of heal lift noted when really flexing the boot and I can tell they will break-in and get worse. They're also a softer boot for sure. I'm thinking happy medium in either boot might work? What about going down a .5 or full size in these and trying that out, as well? Thanks for all your continued help! You're all good peoples =).

Taylor M.


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## TMAS6033 (Sep 22, 2021)

Also, just took off the Photon and immediately felt circulation return to my foot lol. The ADVs not so much.


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## Apex (Sep 23, 2021)

Have you had them heat molded? My photon wides are supposed to come in tomorrow. Nervous about how much I sized down too


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## TMAS6033 (Sep 22, 2021)

TMAS6033 said:


> smaller





Apex said:


> Have you had them heat molded? My photon wides are supposed to come in tomorrow. Nervous about how much I sized down too


No but I can tell that would prob help but not solve the issue. These are painful and straight up too small.


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## Apex (Sep 23, 2021)

Going up a half size would be a .5 cm increase right? Think that on top of an additional 1 cm pack out would be the magical fit?


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## TMAS6033 (Sep 22, 2021)

Not sure yet, waiting for advice from the OGs haha!!


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## Yeahti87 (Jan 17, 2019)

My feet are EE and the longer one is 277 mm so I’m a 280 mondo guy. I have thick bones as well. Riding 275 mondo Adidas Tactical after downsizing from 285 to 280 to the current 275 Tacticals (with a custom insole rising the arch, impossible without it). That’s pushing it and I don’t enjoy at all sitting in my boots in the living room when I ‚focus’ on the comfort but it’s no issue when riding and having meal breaks. 280 mondo brand new was snug and a tad uncomfortable at first but after breaking in they felt really comfortable.
I haven’t tried the Photons wide but I did put my feet into regular 280 Burtons and that would be the smallest size after packing out I could go.
It might be that your feet size does not fit Burton shape.
If there are multiple pressure points, not just these 2-3 mm that will pack out, I would send them back and order Adidas in your mondo so 275. I’ve gone through 3 different sizes of these and own Acerras 275 and I can guarantee that these will pack out 2-3 mm. From what you say you can feel these will get too loose on your feet after packing out but you don’t report weird pressure points there so they comform well to your feet shape.


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## Wiredsport (Sep 16, 2009)

Hi TMA,

We should dig in a bit 

The measurements below are an easy fit for 9.5 and EEE width (your width measurements are E and mid range EE). Let's have a look at a few things. Please post up the four barefoot images of your foot being measured. in each image please show your whole foot, the measuring tape and the wall. Please also take a shot of your measuring tape. Lastly please take and image of your bare foot on the insert with your heel in the heel detent. The insert is the footbed and it can easily be removed form the boot.

Right foot: length= 27.3cm, width= 10.4cm
Left foot: length= 27.3cm, width= 10.75cm

STOKED!


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## SushiLover (Sep 17, 2020)

TMAS6033 said:


> Alright, hello gentleman and shred scholars! Recieved my Photon Wides today. Currently wearing a Photon on my left foot and an ADV tactical on my right. This is me being 100% honest and in no way am I intentionally leaning into bias out of stubbornness, but honestly, the Photons feel way too small. Like painful small. Pain in my heel when flexing at the ankle/ knee, pain in my toe joints as my bones are being pushed back into my other bones lol. They don't feel uncomfortable but manageable upon break-in, they feel painfully too small. Also, I feel like my heel is too big.. like I'm riding up too high in the cup/ bolstering. I know they're not what I'm used to but I truly have an open mind and this is not "uncomfortable", this is painful. It might be helpful to say, at this time, that I'm 5'10", 195 pound, build like a bull. Thus, I have big ankle bones, disproportionately large calves lol, etc.. The only reason I think it might be helpful for me to mention this, is that I think my heel size, ankle size, calf size, even foot height, maybe?, etc.. are other dimensions that are ultimately impacting the boots poor fit. I'm now wondering if perhaps going up a size in the Photons would be a good next triable option? Also, it's fair to mention that these ADVs def. feel way better.. my heel sits better in these.. bolstering right where it should be, and they're snug but not painful. However, I can now tell, with these much smaller Photons on, that these ADVs are too big.. small amount of heal lift noted when really flexing the boot and I can tell they will break-in and get worse. They're also a softer boot for sure. I'm thinking happy medium in either boot might work? What about going down a .5 or full size in these and trying that out, as well? Thanks for all your continued help! You're all good peoples =).
> 
> Taylor M.



I'll share a similar experience. For reference my foot size is 26.5 Mondo with 110 mm width. I was told in this forum by Wiredsports that my feet are EEE wide and should be in 8.5 US. He recommended the Burton Ruler Wide or Photon Wide for EEE width. I've been riding a normal width Burton Ruler size 9.5 for the past 4 years (20-25 days a year). My normal shoe size is 10. So this past weekend I went to one of the Ski Barn stores near me to try out different wide boots from different brands. I tried Burton Photon wide in 8.5 and Salomon Dialogue Focus wide in 9 (didn't have 8.5). They also didn't have the Salomon in 8.5 to compare to the 8.5 Photon. My toes in the 8.5 Photon were curled and uncomfortable standing. However, when bending my knees my toes pulled back a little and were rubbing against the front of the boot. The 9 Salomon was comfortable standing, my toes were rubbing against the front and when bending the knees my toes were touching the front. I tried those boots with very thin socks (dress socks) and not snowboarding socks. The difference between the shape of both boots, the salomon boot is very bulky and really wide (would be concerned fitting into my bindings). The burton one looked like my old regular burton ruler. I'm thinking a size 9 in photon or ruler wide would be the right fit for me.


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## Wiredsport (Sep 16, 2009)

Hi Guys,

This is definitely a process. It is very common for riders to size down gradually before they end up at their mondopoint size. The best spot to start is to be very confident in your four measurements. I point it out a lot but heat fit should be done right away and should not be considered optional. Additionally, all snowboard boots will break in ~ 1 full size (1 cm) over the first few weeks of riding.

STOKED!


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## TMAS6033 (Sep 22, 2021)

Yeahti87 said:


> My feet are EE and the longer one is 277 mm so I’m a 280 mondo guy. I have thick bones as well. Riding 275 mondo Adidas Tactical after downsizing from 285 to 280 to the current 275 Tacticals (with a custom insole rising the arch, impossible without it). That’s pushing it and I don’t enjoy at all sitting in my boots in the living room when I ‚focus’ on the comfort but it’s no issue when riding and having meal breaks. 280 mondo brand new was snug and a tad uncomfortable at first but after breaking in they felt really comfortable.
> I haven’t tried the Photons wide but I did put my feet into regular 280 Burtons and that would be the smallest size after packing out I could go.
> It might be that your feet size does not fit Burton shape.
> If there are multiple pressure points, not just these 2-3 mm that will pack out, I would send them back and order Adidas in your mondo so 275. I’ve gone through 3 different sizes of these and own Acerras 275 and I can guarantee that these will pack out 2-3 mm. From what you say you can feel these will get too loose on your feet after packing out but you don’t report weird pressure points there so they comform well to your feet shape.


Thanks for that insight. I had a similar thought.. that it felt like the shape of the Burtons did not not fit my feet well but I'm still open to giving them a shot. I ended up throwing up my hands and ordering the next two sizes up in the rulers, as well as two sizes down in the ADVs, including a mondo 27.6 or 10.5. So I'll get it all back to the house next week and see what's what. Question, I know you mentioned 2-3mm but I keep hearing that most boots will pack-out a full cm. Have your ADVs packed-out that much?


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## TMAS6033 (Sep 22, 2021)

SushiLover said:


> I'll share a similar experience. For reference my foot size is 26.5 Mondo with 110 mm width. I was told in this forum by Wiredsports that my feet are EEE wide and should be in 8.5 US. He recommended the Burton Ruler Wide or Photon Wide for EEE width. I've been riding a normal width Burton Ruler size 9.5 for the past 4 years (20-25 days a year). My normal shoe size is 10. So this past weekend I went to one of the Ski Barn stores near me to try out different wide boots from different brands. I tried Burton Photon wide in 8.5 and Salomon Dialogue Focus wide in 9 (didn't have 8.5). They also didn't have the Salomon in 8.5 to compare to the 8.5 Photon. My toes in the 8.5 Photon were curled and uncomfortable standing. However, when bending my knees my toes pulled back a little and were rubbing against the front of the boot. The 9 Salomon was comfortable standing, my toes were rubbing against the front and when bending the knees my toes were touching the front. I tried those boots with very thin socks (dress socks) and not snowboarding socks. The difference between the shape of both boots, the salomon boot is very bulky and really wide (would be concerned fitting into my bindings). The burton one looked like my old regular burton ruler. I'm thinking a size 9 in photon or ruler wide would be the right fit for me.


Gotcha! I ordered the same boots in additonal sizes so we'll see what sticks. I will say that when flexing my ankle/ knee my toes didn't pull back at all. My toes were so smashed and my feet were vice-gripped so tightly in the boot that the only thing I felt was pain when flexing. The only part of my foot that even tried to move was my heel and again, pain! And I'm not one to complain lol.


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## Yeahti87 (Jan 17, 2019)

TMAS6033 said:


> Thanks for that insight. I had a similar thought.. that it felt like the shape of the Burtons did not not fit my feet well but I'm still open to giving them a shot. I ended up throwing up my hands and ordering the next two sizes up in the rulers, as well as two sizes down in the ADVs, including a mondo 27.6 or 10.5. So I'll get it all back to the house next week and see what's what. Question, I know you mentioned 2-3mm but I keep hearing that most boots will pack-out a full cm. Have your ADVs packed-out that much?


You should order 9,5 US Tacticals. Don’t look at those messed up insole lengths you can find on Adidas charts. 10 US for my 27,7 longer foot was a safe choice.
Neither my 10.5 US nor 10 US packed out a full cm. I’ve spent over 80 days in them. I still keep the 10s.
One thing to note is that this new Gold Liner is stiffer and feels smaller initially. I have 2 x 9,5 US, one with the Silver Liner, the other one with the Gold One and it was much harder to put my feet into the brand new Gold Ones. You could also check Acerras if you like Boa (I don’t). Those are stiffer but I feel there is 1-2 mm more space for the toe compared to the Tacticals when both are brand new and the same Gold liner.


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## TMAS6033 (Sep 22, 2021)

Wiredsport said:


> Hi TMA,
> 
> We should dig in a bit
> 
> ...


I'll work on this and get back to you shortly. Thanks!


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## TMAS6033 (Sep 22, 2021)

Yeahti87 said:


> You should order 9,5 US Tacticals. Don’t look at those messed up insole lengths you can find on Adidas charts. 10 US for my 27,7 longer foot was a safe choice.
> Neither my 10.5 US nor 10 US packed out a full cm. I’ve spent over 80 days in them. I still keep the 10s.
> One thing to note is that this new Gold Liner is stiffer and feels smaller initially. I have 2 x 9,5 US, one with the Silver Liner, the other one with the Gold One and it was much harder to put my feet into the brand new Gold Ones. You could also check Acerras if you like Boa (I don’t). Those are stiffer but I feel there is 1-2 mm more space for the toe compared to the Tacticals when both are brand new and the same Gold liner.


Wait haha, so the Adidas size chart isn't accurate? I already order 10s (27.1cm) and 10.5s (27.6cm).


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## Yeahti87 (Jan 17, 2019)

TMAS6033 said:


> Wait haha, so the Adidas size chart isn't accurate? I already order 10s (27.1cm) and 10.5s (27.6cm).


No, there is something fucked up there in the charts. The label on the boot and on the box is correct. So JPN size on the tongue is the mondo. Check the ones you already have.


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## Wiredsport (Sep 16, 2009)

Mondopoint has no conversion. Your foot measurement in mm is your mondo size. That mm or cm measurement will always appear on the boot label (in some form).


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## TMAS6033 (Sep 22, 2021)

Yeahti87 said:


> No, there is something fucked up there in the charts. The label on the boot and on the box is correct. So JPN size on the tongue is the mondo. Check the ones you already have.


The 11.5s I currently have here say 28.8cm on the size chart but the JPN size on the tongue is 29.5.


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## TMAS6033 (Sep 22, 2021)

Wiredsport said:


> Mondopoint has no conversion. Your foot measurement in mm is your mondo size. That mm or cm measurement will always appear on the boot label (in some form).


I guess what confusing is that Adidas say on their website to measure foot length (only) using the same method you've described. They then have a cm to US size chart. So for instance if my foot measures 27.6 cm that would be a size 10.5 according to them but Yeahti87 is saying that this is incorrect.


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## Yeahti87 (Jan 17, 2019)

TMAS6033 said:


> The 11.5s I currently have here say 28.8cm on the size chart but the JPN size on the tongue is 29.5.


29,5 mondo. It’s terribly oversized if you measured your feet right.


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## Wiredsport (Sep 16, 2009)

Right, we mention this frequently. Sizing Suggestions, conversions, etc are often written by web guys and marketers. You can and should ignore all of that. Mondo is a straight measurement with no conversion. The mondo size on a boot is the manufacturers Guarantee to you that a boot with this size label will fit a foot with this measurement range. Width needs to be correct as well.

STOKED!


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## TMAS6033 (Sep 22, 2021)

@Wiredsport

Ok here you go..

Left foot length:
























Left foot width:

















Right foot length:

















Right foot width:

















So looks like my initial measurements were maybe a little off. I tried to the be as accurate as possible both times but got slightly different measuremtns this time. 

Right foot lenth: 27.8cm
Right foot width: 10.8cm
Left foot length: 27.3cm
Left foot width: 10.8cm


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## TMAS6033 (Sep 22, 2021)

Yeahti87 said:


> 29,5 mondo. It’s terribly oversized if you measured your feet right.


Yeah, I know that now. I just still have them around. Haven't returned them yet.


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## TMAS6033 (Sep 22, 2021)

@Wiredsport 

Also, here are pics of my bare feet in the liners..


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## Wiredsport (Sep 16, 2009)

Hi TMA,

A few things we need to correct. You have a gap at the end of your ruler before the scale begins. That gap will give you incorrect measurements. Do you have a tape measure without a gap? I would like to see you place the tape directly under your foot at the longest or widest point, still against the wall. Also, your images are of the liner, not the insert. The insert is the footbed at the bottom of the liner. I would like to see images of your bare feet on the insert as above.

STOKED!


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## TMAS6033 (Sep 22, 2021)

Wiredsport said:


> Hi TMA,
> 
> A few things we need to correct. You have a gap at the end of your ruler before the scale begins. That gap will give you incorrect measurements. Do you have a tape measure without a gap? I would like to see you place the tape directly under your foot at the longest or widest point, still against the wall. Also, your images are of the liner, not the insert. The insert is the footbed at the bottom of the liner. I would like to see images of your bare feet on the insert as above.
> 
> STOKED!


Ohh ok, I was confused by that. I can do that when I get home. Also, I have a fabric measuring tape that will be perfect for what you're asking. I'll do that when I get home as well. Thanks!


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## Wiredsport (Sep 16, 2009)

Yes, fabric tapes are great provided no gap and the tape should be taped to the floor to keep it tensioned (no bends or wrinkles).

STOKED!


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## TMAS6033 (Sep 22, 2021)

@Wiredsport

Ok, round 2.. more pictures of my feet hahaha!


Measuring tape:









Right foot length:









Right foot width:









Left foot length: 









Left foot width:









Updated measurements: 
Right foot lenth: 27.8cm
Right foot width: 11.1 cm
Left foot length: 27.6cm
Left foot width: 11.1cm 

Right foot on insert:
















Left foot on insert:


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## Wiredsport (Sep 16, 2009)

Updated measurements:
Right foot lenth: 27.8cm
Right foot width: 11.1 cm
Left foot length: 27.6cm
Left foot width: 11.1cm


Hi,
Please double check the above. I am seeing 27.1, 27.2, etc. The long lines will be the full cm readings. Look where the 1st cm should be on your tape.

This may help with your tape:




https://static.javatpoint.com/tutorial/howto/images/how-to-read-a-tape-measure9.png


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## TMAS6033 (Sep 22, 2021)

Ahh yes, you are very much correct. Simple error on my part as a rushed to do this today. I've just left for a 3 day backcountry deer hunt. I've been running around like mad man all day trying to get out the door! So with the correct adjustments to my measurements, where does that put me? What did the insert pics tell you? Thanks =)


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## Wiredsport (Sep 16, 2009)

OK, please post on image of the labels inside the tongues of this boot.


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## TMAS6033 (Sep 22, 2021)

Wiredsport said:


> OK, please post on image of the labels inside the tongues of this boot.


Ok, but won't be today, though. I'm gone until Monday. Thanks!


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## TMAS6033 (Sep 22, 2021)

@Wiredsport 

Boot pics:

















Again, I'd like to ask about the inserts? I'm not the expert, but I'm guessing that my feet being that much bigger is not what we want?

Thanks!


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## Wiredsport (Sep 16, 2009)

TMAS6033 said:


> Again, I'd like to ask about the inserts? I'm not the expert, but I'm guessing that my feet being that much bigger is not what we want?


Hi,
That part is expected. In a correctly fit Mondopoint size there will aways be ~1 cm of barefoot overhang (foot is ~1 cm longer and wider than the insert). This is because you need firm pressure into the compliant materials of the liner at both your toes and heels. 

The reason for the checking and double checking is the oddity that with your measurements that you are noting pain. That is very unusual as you are at the smallest measurements length wise and in the middle of the range for width for this Mondopoint size. It should be very snug everywhere when tightly laced but there should be no pain. Your foot is not visibly unusual in any way that would impact that fit. You do appear to have a Morton's toe (not uncommon) which can cause pain in some instances. You may want to check on that. Please put the boots on, lace them tightly and determine if they are snug in an unusual way, or painful. If painful, they are not correct for you.


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## TMAS6033 (Sep 22, 2021)

Wiredsport said:


> Hi,
> That part is expected. In a correctly fit Mondopoint size there will aways be ~1 cm of barefoot overhang (foot is ~1 cm longer and wider than the insert). This is because you need firm pressure into the compliant materials of the liner at both your toes and heels.
> 
> The reason for the checking and double checking is the oddity that with your measurements that you are noting pain. That is very unusual as you are at the smallest measurements length wise and in the middle of the range for width for this Mondopoint size. It should be very snug everywhere when tightly laced but there should be no pain. Your foot is not visibly unusual in any way that would impact that fit. You do appear to have a Morton's toe (not uncommon) which can cause pain in some instances. You may want to check on that. Please put the boots on, lace them tightly and determine if they are snug in an unusual way, or painful. If painful, they are not correct for you.


They are def painful. I know about my toe but that seems like a moot point, given that we took measurements from that longest toe. My pain is coming from my aforementioned statements about my toes (especially the longest ones) being jammed back; not firm pressure, straight up jammed. Also, when I flex at the knee or ankle, pain across the top of my foot and in my heal. I ordered the next half size up in the Photons, so we'll see how that goes when they arrive. So far the best I've been able to do, is a size 10.5 in the Adidas ADV Tacticals. They list this as 27.6cm on their website. I have a hard time getting my right foot in but once I do, I get firm pressure without pain and no heel lift. I do get some pain across the top of my foot, however, but I'm guessing that will stop after break-in. Any more thoughts here?

Also, I wanted to ask you about board width again. We already had the convo about barefoot size being the most important determining factor and I'm in agreement. That being said, if 10 in Photons or 10.5 in ADVs is the smallest I can manage, should I still be rocking M/L (as opposed to L/ XL) bindings and reg. width boards? The reason I ask, is that it seems most manufacturer's bindings charts put size 10-10.5 somewhere in-between bindings sizes. Also, I want to get this whole width thing right as well. Is either barefoot "underhang" or overhang preferable? For board width (used avg. 272mm barefoot measurement as reference point), here are my current widths, as follows:

1. Algorythm 161, (257mm waist) 265mm @ center insert (7mm foot overhang total (max overhang=10mm))
2. Algorythm 160W, (264mm waist) 273mm @ center insert (-1mm foot underhang (max underhang= 4mm)
3. Nitro TP 162W, ( 270mm waist) 275mm @ center insert (3mm foot underhang total (max underhang =4mm))
4. Nitro TP 162, (254 waist) 260mm @ insert (12mm foot overhang= no bueno (max=10mm=))

Thanks!


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## Wiredsport (Sep 16, 2009)

TMAS6033 said:


> They are def painful. I know about my toe but that seems like a moot point, given that we took measurements from that longest toe. My pain is coming from my aforementioned statements about my toes (especially the longest ones) being jammed back; not firm pressure, straight up jammed. Also, when I flex at the knee or ankle, pain across the top of my foot and in my heal. I ordered the next half size up in the Photons, so we'll see how that goes when they arrive. So far the best I've been able to do, is a size 10.5 in the Adidas ADV Tacticals. They list this as 27.6cm on their website. I have a hard time getting my right foot in but once I do, I get firm pressure without pain and no heel lift. I do get some pain across the top of my foot, however, but I'm guessing that will stop after break-in. Any more thoughts here?
> 
> Also, I wanted to ask you about board width again. We already had the convo about barefoot size being the most important determining factor and I'm in agreement. That being said, if 10 in Photons or 10.5 in ADVs is the smallest I can manage, should I still be rocking M/L (as opposed to L/ XL) bindings and reg. width boards? The reason I ask, is that it seems most manufacturer's bindings charts put size 10-10.5 somewhere in-between bindings sizes. Also, I want to get this whole width thing right as well. Is either barefoot "underhang" or overhang preferable? For board width (used avg. 272mm barefoot measurement as reference point), here are my current widths, as follows:
> 
> ...


Hi TMA,

Boards first because that is easy. Boards are sized by barefoot measurement only, boot size should never be used. Your actual foot length is all that can be used to turn the board, not excess boot material. As your longest foot measurement is 27.2 you will not require either a Wide or a Mid Wide board. Many with these foot measurements will actually seek out narrower boards.

Waist width should also not be used. You want to use board width at the inserts minus actual foot length (27.2) adjusted for actual stance angle adjustment (typically about 1 cm and normal common angles).

You will need to contact the seller for actual insert widths of the above boards But using a common waist to insert difference of 1 cm for example on the first board:

27.7 - (27.2 - 1.0) =1.5 cm. In this example your foot length would be 1.5 cm inside the confines of the board's edges at the inserts. I would suggest about 1 cm of total barefoot overhang so you are off by 2.5 cm in that example. That is about 1 full inch too wide in my opinion.

Barefoot size should also be used for binding sizing but that does assume that you will be wearing a boot at your Mondo size. If you are unable to wear a boot in your actual Mondo size then we will need to see the boot size that you end up in to further advise on bindings.

STOKED!


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## Wiredsport (Sep 16, 2009)

As for boot size that is very odd. Is the pain in both feet? That would be even more odd as your smaller foot is only 1 mm above size 9. I never suggest a boot that causes pain, so you will need to find another option. It is rare but some people are highly sensitive to pain in their feet. In any event, I would not suggest riding a painful boot. As you are already at the lower side of Mondopoint 275, I would suggest that you incrementally increase from your actual Mondo size until you experience no pain. 

You had originally mentioned that you were riding in boot sizes 11.5 and 12 so, even if you cannot get down to your actual Mondopoint size you will still notice some nice gains.

STOKED!


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## TMAS6033 (Sep 22, 2021)

Hey Wired!

Ok, so I know that at this point, I've def. complicated a lot of things and I'm sorry for consuming so much of your time but I've been equally confused about the mondo size not fitting, etc.. I measured my feet again after double-checking and fixing an issue with my cloth measuring tape and cross referencing it to a ruler and a tape measure; it was slightly off before. Here are my most accurate foot measurements and hopefully the explanation for much of the confusion.

Right foot lenth: 27.8cm (273mm)
Right foot width: 10.8cm (106mm)
Left foot length: 27.6cm (271mm)
Left foot width: 10.9cm (106mm)

This would put me in a mondo 28.

With that being said, this list has the actual insert widths as follows...
1. Algorythm 161, 26.7cm @ center inserts
2. Algorythm 160W, 27.4cm @ center inserts
3. Nitro TP 162W, 27.8cm @ center inserts
4. Nitro TP 162, 26.2cm @ center inserts

So then..

#1 (Algorythm 161):
26.7cm (insert width)- (27.8cm (longest foot length)- 10mm (binding angle)).. so 26.7cm- 26.8cm= 1mm of overhang?

#2 (Algorythm 160W):
27.4cm (insert width)- (27.8cm (longest foot length)- 10mm (binding angle)).. so 27.4cm- 26.8cm= 6mm of underhang?

#3 (Nitro TP 162W):
27.8cm (insert width)- (27.8cm (longest foot length)- 10mm (binding angle)).. so 27.8cm- 26.8cm= 1cm of underhang?

#4 (Nitro TP 162):
26.2cm (insert width)- (27.8cm (foot length)- 10mm (binding angle)).. so 26.2cm- 26.8cm= 6mm overhang?

Are these correct?

Also, I figured the following would be good for you to see. This is me standing barefoot on the following boards with my feet positioned at approximate binding angles. I am slightly confused by some of the pictures; for instance, according to the above calculations, I should have 1mm of overhang on the Algorythm, however, you can see that I have much more than that.

Nitro TP, 162W:
Front foot:









Back foot:









Nitro TP 162 (standard width):
Front foot:









Back foot:









Ride Algorythm 161 (standard width):
Front foot:









Back foot:









Seeing this, what are your thoughts/ recommendations?

Thanks @Wiredsport !! You've been a huge help as I soak-in and navigate this new info.


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## Wiredsport (Sep 16, 2009)

Hi,

I am always happy to help. These last foot measurements below still have me confused. mm and mm should match aside from the decimal point placement. For example, the right foot length 27.8 cm = 278 mm. 

Right foot lenth: 27.8cm (273mm)
Right foot width: 10.8cm (106mm)
Left foot length: 27.6cm (271mm)
Left foot width: 10.9cm (106mm)

In regards to the board widths, I did not realize that you had the boards present. Standing on an actual board at your exact stance width and angles is the very best way. I would immediately rule out both boards with "underhang". Both of the other boards are in the rage of acceptable overhang. Between those is a matter of preference. 

STOKED!


----------



## TMAS6033 (Sep 22, 2021)

Wiredsport said:


> Hi,
> 
> I am always happy to help. These last foot measurements below still have me confused. mm and mm should match aside from the decimal point placement. For example, the right foot length 27.8 cm = 278 mm.
> 
> ...


Ahh yes, I simply fogot to change the mm measurements, it should be:

Right foot lenth: 27.8cm (278mm)
Right foot width: 10.8cm (108mm)
Left foot length: 27.6cm (276mm)
Left foot width: 10.9cm (109mm)

Yes, I have 3/4. The only one I'm missing is the Algorythm 160W. So, I can eliminate the Nitro 162W. Both the other boards look good? My biggest concern is my back foot on the Nitro 162 standard (see below). How's that look to you?


----------



## Wiredsport (Sep 16, 2009)

That looks great. Using your new numbers you would be Mondo 280 or a size 10 US in Burton's Wide boots. 

STOKED!


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## TMAS6033 (Sep 22, 2021)

Wiredsport said:


> That looks great. Using your new numbers you would be Mondo 280 or a size 10 US in Burton's Wide boots.
> 
> STOKED!


Great! I'm stoked to be figuring this out. I have a pair of size 10 Photons on the way. I still have size 10.5 and 11 ADV Tacticals that I'm keeping around, as well. It seems like Adidas doesn't use the mondo system. Someone previously mentioned that the Japan size is the mondo size, but that would put me in a size 10 in Adidas also. I had a size 10 here at the house and I would have had to break my ankle to get my foot in that boot. I may be wrong, but using their "heel/ toe" measuring system a 10.5= 27.6cm, 11= 28cm. I can get my feet in both sizes. With the 10.5s, I have very firm toe pressure into the liners without crunching. They feel like they will pack out well. I do have a little pain across the top of my foot but I'm wondering if that will diminish with break-in? With the 11s, I still get pressure into the liner but no pain. With the toe pressure I'm feeling in the Adidas, it makes me think that using their heel/ toe chart is the best way to go? Again, I'm quite possibly wrong. Any thoughts here?


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## Wiredsport (Sep 16, 2009)

In regards to Adidas you will read about riders finding certain sizes to fit them like EEEE width and other sizes that are closer to E width although none are labeled as wide. My own experience near my size is that all have very wide and again no Adidas boots are labeled as wide. As such I can not suggest them with confidence. That does not reflect on the boot quality, just the suitability to obtaining an every time great fit via suggestion.


STOKED!


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## TMAS6033 (Sep 22, 2021)

Wiredsport said:


> In regards to Adidas you will read about riders finding certain sizes to fit them like EEEE width and other sizes that are closer to E width although none are labeled as wide. My own experience near my size is that all have very wide and again no Adidas boots are labeled as wide. As such I can not suggest them with confidence. That does not reflect on the boot quality, just the suitability to obtaining an every time great fit via suggestion.
> 
> 
> STOKED!


This actually makes a ton of sense as they feel/ seem to be a very high-quality boot (and a lot of people love them!), however, I have noticed, having had about 8 pairs here at the house in the past couple of weeks, that they do vary in fit from boot/ boot, even in the same size. For instance, I was able to get one pair of 11s on easily, while another was nearly impossible. Also, one pair of 11.5s came very stiff, while another felt mid-flex. Just some small but noticeable inconsistencies. I do like the boots though and think they might be worth giving a shot. I mentioned a lot of positive pressure into the liner in the 10.5s but some pain across the top of my foot. We've talked about "pain" previously as an indicator that a boot is not fitting well, however, pain is also subjective. Is there a rule of thumb for knowing what will "break in" and what to walk away from?


----------



## Wiredsport (Sep 16, 2009)

TMAS6033 said:


> We've talked about "pain" previously as an indicator that a boot is not fitting well, however, pain is also subjective. Is there a rule of thumb for knowing what will "break in" and what to walk away from?


Once your heat fit is done, you should feel no pain. I don't suggest riding in a boot where you have any pain after heat fit. 

Once riders become used to the everywhere fit that comes from riding in their Mondopoint size, they crave it. This is a very different fit from a shoe, so getting there is frequently a process that occurs over time. Unfortunately, if you size a boot to fit like that when it is new, it will no longer fit like that after break in. For that reason you will read about riders here going smaller than Mondopoint in planning for break in. That can be painful and I do not suggest it.

STOKED!


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## who.am.i (Dec 30, 2017)

Damn. I not only one with foot size-board width problem. Board an boots are not so hard to find,but prices of new gear are high [emoji29]

Poslano z mojega EML-L29 z uporabo Tapatalk


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## TMAS6033 (Sep 22, 2021)

Wiredsport said:


> Once your heat fit is done, you should feel no pain. I don't suggest riding in a boot where you have any pain after heat fit.
> 
> Once riders become used to the everywhere fit that comes from riding in their Mondopoint size, they crave it. This is a very different fit from a shoe, so getting there is frequently a process that occurs over time. Unfortunately, if you size a boot to fit like that when it is new, it will no longer fit like that after break in. For that reason you will read about riders here going smaller than Mondopoint in planning for break in. That can be painful and I do not suggest it.
> 
> STOKED!


Hey Wired,

I've been waiting on my mondo 28 Burtons to arrive. I should have had them last Thursday but.. shipping delays. I should be able to report back to you by week's end. In the meantime, I wanted to get your feedback on how these ADV Tacticals are fitting in size M/L Rome Katana bindings.. kind of a tight squeeze where the toebox of the boot meets the baseplate but it's not impacting the way the boot sits on the footbed. Thoughts? Thanks!


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## Wiredsport (Sep 16, 2009)

Hi,
Please let us know the boot and binding size. 

STOKED!


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## TMAS6033 (Sep 22, 2021)

Wiredsport said:


> Hi,
> Please let us know the boot and binding size.
> 
> STOKED!


Boot= 11
Bindings= M/L
Binding manufacturer says that sizes 10.5/ 11 boots can go either way (M/L or L/XL) depending on the specific boot. That's why I sent pictures so you can see how this size 11 is fitting.


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## Wiredsport (Sep 16, 2009)

Hi,

All bindings require significant adjustment to dial them in for your foot and for a specific boot. As you are not size 11, I would not suggest making those adjustments until you have your actual boots. 

STOKED!


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## TMAS6033 (Sep 22, 2021)

Wiredsport said:


> Hi,
> 
> All bindings require significant adjustment to dial them in for your foot and for a specific boot. As you are not size 11, I would not suggest making those adjustments until you have your actual boots.
> 
> STOKED!


After trying on every size between 9.5- 12 in the ADVs, I am a size 11(28cm heal/ toe, according to their website) and I am planning to keep both pairs (Burtons and ADVs) to ride/ compare this coming season. That's why I sent the pictures. The Burtons will fit in these bindings no question and I will adjust the bindings accordingly when the Burton boots arrive. However, I am wondering about the pictures I sent, specifically. How are the ADVs fitting?


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## d3tro (Apr 4, 2018)

Close to 42 and currently got a Lib TRS and a Burton One Hitter. The OH was a one year model only but is very similar to the Skeleton Key, which is still on the current line up at Burton for this year.
The SK is predictable, surfy feel, not soft neither stiff. Good pop, sure it must be good in the pow, the OH is.
For what I know and tried, I would pick the SK.


Envoyé de mon LG-H873 en utilisant Tapatalk


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## Wiredsport (Sep 16, 2009)

TMAS6033 said:


> After trying on every size between 9.5- 12 in the ADVs, I am a size 11(28cm heal/ toe, according to their website) and I am planning to keep both pairs (Burtons and ADVs) to ride/ compare this coming season. That's why I sent the pictures. The Burtons will fit in these bindings no question and I will adjust the bindings accordingly when the Burton boots arrive. However, I am wondering about the pictures I sent, specifically. How are the ADVs fitting?


Hi TMA,

A few thoughts. The info on the Adidas site is garbage, and is exactly the kind of bad information that we struggle against to get riders in boots that will help them enjoy the sport more. Yes, it makes the sales process easier for a brand or retailer, no, you will not get a good fit. For example:

*IN BETWEEN SIZES?*
For tight fit, go one size down.
For loose fit, go one size up.

So according to the Adidas web/marketing team (unlikely snowboarders?) a rider has a 2 cm range (two full boot sizes!). What does almost an inch matter in snowboard boots? Hah! Again, that is complete nonsense.

Please note that the fit page that you are quoting is the same page used for Adidas sneakers. Sneaker fit and snowboard boot fit are entirely different. Your sneaker/shoe size will never be your snowboard boot size.

So to recap, they begin by using sneaker size (a size too large in most instances) and then suggest going up a size for some riders. ARGGGGH!

Also, they picture measurement in socks without mentioning what socks or that the sock measurement would then need to be accounted for. Uh, oh! I am starting to heat up 

Let's not even get into what happens to these after break in...

As I mentioned earlier, I would completely disregard that info. In my opinion it is irresponsible to publish this kind of stuff.

In regards to bindings, the bottom line, as always is that your foot size is the key. You latest measurements are 28 cm. If you choose a boot size that requires a binding designed for larger than you actual foot size (Katana) then you will have difficulty centering your foot on the board, etc. 

STOKED!


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## TMAS6033 (Sep 22, 2021)

Wiredsport said:


> Hi TMA,
> 
> A few thoughts. The info on the Adidas site is garbage, and is exactly the kind of bad information that we struggle against to get riders in boots that will help them enjoy the sport more. Yes, it makes the sales process easier for a brand or retailer, no, you will not get a good fit. For example:
> 
> ...


Got it. That makes sense. I feel like these ADVs do fit me well, however, but I'll hold final judgment until the Burtons arrive. Regarding binding size, I figured that at 28cm, I'm going to be in a M or M/L binding (depending on the manufacturer) which these Katanas are. Is that not the case?


----------



## SoaD009 (Jan 9, 2020)

TMAS6033 said:


> Got it. That makes sense. I feel like these ADVs do fit me well, however, but I'll hold final judgment until the Burtons arrive. Regarding binding size, I figured that at 28cm, I'm going to be in a M or M/L binding (depending on the manufacturer) which these Katanas are. Is that not the case?


As someone with a 27.6 cm foot, I wear a size 9.5 Adidas boot. You can fit into a size 10 and you will be a M/L in Katanas.


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## Wiredsport (Sep 16, 2009)

Hi,

Please find the Katana chart below. We have sold this binding since year 1 and I would agree with this chart. 10 works well well with M/L in almost all boots. You can adjust the bindings to work with some size 10.5 or 11 boots but not all. This is another common problem with riding above Mondo size. You end up having to upsize other items to accommodate an oversized boot that then performs poorly for actual foot size.

STOKED!


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## TMAS6033 (Sep 22, 2021)

SoaD009 said:


> As someone with a 27.6 cm foot, I wear a size 9.5 Adidas boot. You can fit into a size 10 and you will be a M/L in Katanas.


I know that it makes sense logically but I had every size from 9.5-12 at the house and the smallest size I could get my foot into was a 10.5. I would have had to break my ankle to get into anything smaller and, trust me, it wasn't for lack of trying. No one is the same, I guess.


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## TMAS6033 (Sep 22, 2021)

@Wiredsport 

Just got a pair of Ions, 28 mondo, to the house. They're a really nice boot (better be for the price! Lol). I don't know if they simply need a heat treat or maybe a custom insole but my toes definitely still feel crunched. Not painful like the 27.5s were but my toes are def. crinkled up. Also, just a note, because I've never owned Burton boots, but the heel bolstering seems a bit lacking and I'm getting some heel lift just walking around. Thoughts? Thanks!


----------



## TMAS6033 (Sep 22, 2021)

Wiredsport said:


> Hi,
> 
> Please find the Katana chart below. We have sold this binding since year 1 and I would agree with this chart. 10 works well well with M/L in almost all boots. You can adjust the bindings to work with some size 10.5 or 11 boots but not all. This is another common problem with riding above Mondo size. You end up having to upsize other items to accommodate an oversized boot that then performs poorly for actual foot size.
> 
> ...


Yeah I've seen this chart multiple times. I just wanted to know how those ADVs were looking in the M/L bindings since I knew that an 11 could be pushing it depending on the boot but I've learned that you're not really going to make any recommendations outside my mondo size lol. Fair enough!


----------



## Wiredsport (Sep 16, 2009)

TMAS6033 said:


> @Wiredsport
> 
> Just got a pair of Ions, 28 mondo, to the house. They're a really nice boot (better be for the price! Lol). I don't know if they simply need a heat treat or maybe a custom insole but my toes definitely still feel crunched. Not painful like the 27.5s were but my toes are def. crinkled up. Also, just a note, because I've never owned Burton boots, but the heel bolstering seems a bit lacking and I'm getting some heel lift just walking around. Thoughts? Thanks!


Hi,

Glad to hear that there is no pain. All boots need to be heat fit. As above, this should be considered mandatory and it should be done first thing. A heat fit can actually only work well in a properly sized boot. If you do not have firm pressure (from firm contact of your foot pressing into the compliant materials of the liner) to begin with, there is no pressure with which to form the boot to your foot. Your length is mid range for this size and will provide ample pressure for a good heat fit. Here are our heat fit suggestions: Heat Fit FAQ - Love your feet

STOKED


----------



## Elevation212 (Apr 21, 2019)

Wiredsport said:


> Hi,
> 
> Glad to hear that there is no pain. All boots need to be heat fit. As above, this should be considered mandatory and it should be done first thing. A heat fit can actually only work well in a properly sized boot. If you do not have firm pressure (from firm contact of your foot pressing into the compliant materials of the liner) to begin with, there is no pressure with which to form the boot to your foot. Your length is mid range for this size and will provide ample pressure for a good heat fit. Here are our heat fit suggestions: Heat Fit FAQ - Love your feet
> 
> STOKED


Wired, appreciate you bud, need more boot docs in this world. Early season riding I find the arches of my feet burn like heck/ache to the point that I need to chill out for 20 minutes a few times a day to let them calm down. After about 2-4 days it stops. I always chalked this up to getting the body back in the groove but based on your post I now wonder if I’m compensating for some micro heel raise.

based on this would you refit? Last season I sized down from a 12.5 photon to a 11.5 Thraxis. Toes were snug to begin but as the liner packed out I eventually got to the point where they no longer were making contact with the toe of the boot. I didn’t try Mondo sizing so could give that a go to verify I’m sizing correctly

thank you for the advice!


----------



## Wiredsport (Sep 16, 2009)

Elevation212 said:


> Wired, appreciate you bud, need more boot docs in this world. Early season riding I find the arches of my feet burn like heck/ache to the point that I need to chill out for 20 minutes a few times a day to let them calm down. After about 2-4 days it stops. I always chalked this up to getting the body back in the groove but based on your post I now wonder if I’m compensating for some micro heel raise.
> 
> based on this would you refit? Last season I sized down from a 12.5 photon to a 11.5 Thraxis. Toes were snug to begin but as the liner packed out I eventually got to the point where they no longer were making contact with the toe of the boot. I didn’t try Mondo sizing so could give that a go to verify I’m sizing correctly
> 
> thank you for the advice!


Hi Elevation,
The best spot to start is with Mondo sizing. 

Please post up your four barefoot measurements and I will be happy to have a look.

STOKED!


----------



## Elevation212 (Apr 21, 2019)

Wiredsport said:


> Hi Elevation,
> The best spot to start is with Mondo sizing.
> 
> Please post up your four barefoot measurements and I will be happy to have a look.
> ...


now I am stoked!

left is
10.8 inches long (27.432 cm)
4.6 inches wide (11.648 cm)

right is
11 inches long (27.94cm)
4.8 inches wide (12.192cm)

thnx for the help, my current thraxis is a 11.5 with a custom ortho bed. I also still rock the photons which are 12s (my mistake) on days when I want a more playful boot


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## Wiredsport (Sep 16, 2009)

Hi,

I am going to need you to measure again using a wall that is vertical to the floor (no molding please).

Thanks!


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## Elevation212 (Apr 21, 2019)

Wiredsport said:


> Hi,
> 
> I am going to need you to measure again using a wall that is vertical to the floor (no molding please).
> 
> Thanks!





Wiredsport said:


> Hi,
> 
> I am going to need you to measure again using a wall that is vertical to the floor (no molding please).
> 
> Thanks!


ohh i see, don’t worry I used a flat bit see bellow


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## TMAS6033 (Sep 22, 2021)

Wiredsport said:


> Hi,
> 
> Glad to hear that there is no pain. All boots need to be heat fit. As above, this should be considered mandatory and it should be done first thing. A heat fit can actually only work well in a properly sized boot. If you do not have firm pressure (from firm contact of your foot pressing into the compliant materials of the liner) to begin with, there is no pressure with which to form the boot to your foot. Your length is mid range for this size and will provide ample pressure for a good heat fit. Here are our heat fit suggestions: Heat Fit FAQ - Love your feet
> 
> STOKED



Good to know. What about my question regarding the bolstering/ heel lift?


----------



## Wiredsport (Sep 16, 2009)

Elevation212 said:


> ohh i see, don’t worry I used a flat bit see bellow


OK for length but for width there is not enough room there to have had the whole foot against a vertical wall. I will need that to get this right for you. 

STOKED!


----------



## Wiredsport (Sep 16, 2009)

TMAS6033 said:


> Good to know. What about my question regarding the bolstering/ heel lift?


We won't have that info until heat fit is done. Right now the liner is like an unformed sock.


----------



## Elevation212 (Apr 21, 2019)

Wiredsport said:


> We won't have that info until heat fit is done. Right now the liner is like an unformed sock.





Wiredsport said:


> OK for length but for width there is not enough room there to have had the whole foot against a vertical wall. I will need that to get this right for you.
> 
> STOKED!



good call remeasured on a flat wall

right foot length 11 inches (27.94cm)
Right foot width 4 inches (10.16cm)

left foot length 11.2 inches (28.448cm)
Left foot width 4.2 inches (10.668cm)


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## Wiredsport (Sep 16, 2009)

Elevation212 said:


> good call remeasured on a flat wall
> 
> right foot length 11 inches (27.94cm)
> Right foot width 4 inches (10.16cm)
> ...


Great! You are mondopoint 285 or size 10.5 US in snowboard boots. You are an E width which requires a specific Wide boot. I would strongly suggest either the Salomon Dialogue Wide or Salomon Synapse Wide in size 10.5. 

STOKED!


----------



## Elevation212 (Apr 21, 2019)

Wiredsport said:


> Great! You are mondopoint 285 or size 10.5 US in snowboard boots. You are an E width which requires a specific Wide boot. I would strongly suggest either the Salomon Dialogue Wide or Salomon Synapse Wide in size 10.5.
> 
> STOKED!


Awesome thank you for the help!


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## TMAS6033 (Sep 22, 2021)

Wiredsport said:


> We won't have that info until heat fit is done. Right now the liner is like an unformed sock.


Ok, but once I get a heat fit won't I void my ability to return the boot if it's not a good fit?


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## Wiredsport (Sep 16, 2009)

TMAS6033 said:


> Ok, but once I get a heat fit won't I void my ability to return the boot if it's not a good fit?


I have never heard of a retailer not accepting a return for an unused boot due to professional heat fit. Heat fit is reversible by heating again.


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## TMAS6033 (Sep 22, 2021)

Wiredsport said:


> I have never heard of a retailer not accepting a return for an unused boot due to professional heat fit. Heat fit is reversible by heating again.


Gotcha, good to know!


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## Jack87 (Jan 9, 2021)

SushiLover said:


> @ Wiredsport Will a burton *wide* ruler boot (size 9.5) fit into a medium union binding base plate (strata & atlas)? I have a regular ruler and the width of the boot barely fits into the base plate? I can't imagine a wider boot will fit into the same binding?


With Burton the shell of the boot is exactly 100% the same between wide and normal width boots. The difference is in the liner and the material of the liner on different points of the boot. I have asked Burton this question and compared a photon wide and regular size 8 boot. Only difference you will see is when you remove the liner from the boot.

So it shouldn't affect the recommended binding fit.


----------



## SushiLover (Sep 17, 2020)

Jack87 said:


> With Burton the shell of the boot is exactly 100% the same between wide and normal width boots. The difference is in the liner and the material of the liner on different points of the boot. I have asked Burton this question and compared a photon wide and regular size 8 boot. Only difference you will see is when you remove the liner from the boot.
> 
> So it shouldn't affect the recommended binding fit.



Let me ask you this, can I swap the liners (wide vs regular) in the same shell without any subtle difference that would affect performance? I recently purchased the wide ruler in 9 (black) and I also have brand new boa ruler regular (olive green) that I'm actually selling in size 9.5.that I purchased last year during the middle of the pandemic. I really like the shell of the 9.5 boa one instead of the new speed lace wide ruler that I just bought so I was thinking of keeping both shells and sell the regular liner but I'm not sure if I'll get a buyer for that.


----------



## Jack87 (Jan 9, 2021)

SushiLover said:


> Let me ask you this, can I swap the liners (wide vs regular) in the same shell without any subtle difference that would affect performance? I recently purchased the wide ruler in 9 (black) and I also have brand new boa ruler regular (olive green) that I'm actually selling in size 9.5.that I purchased last year during the middle of the pandemic. I really like the shell of the 9.5 boa one instead of the new speed lace wide ruler that I just bought so I was thinking of keeping both shells and sell the regular liner but I'm not sure if I'll get a buyer for that.


So the shell for 9 vs 9.5 are different in Burton I dunno about other manufacturers. You can swap the liner sure but there will definitely be differences in performance. If it was wide vs regular shell the only difference would be the liner and you could use whichever liner you preferred.

I personally put wide liner in my regular shells. I no longer have my regular liners. If you were selling size 8 regular liners I would have bought it as I'm not really a wide foot. I use step ons and there is something off about them where regular liners were giving me pressure point.

Anyway step on 8 boot fits in step on small binding (sizing of binding must fit boot on step ons) size 8.5 boot will not fit small binding and must use medium. As this tells you the shells are different between the half size models.

As for the shells between let's say 9.5 and 10. Those may or may not be the same where difference is the liner. I don't actually know.

I do know my girlfriend went from a Burton women's 8 to a Burton women's 7.5 and the insoles was marked with a size 8 for both.


----------



## WigMar (Mar 17, 2019)

SushiLover said:


> Let me ask you this, can I swap the liners (wide vs regular) in the same shell without any subtle difference that would affect performance? I recently purchased the wide ruler in 9 (black) and I also have brand new boa ruler regular (olive green) that I'm actually selling in size 9.5.that I purchased last year during the middle of the pandemic. I really like the shell of the 9.5 boa one instead of the new speed lace wide ruler that I just bought so I was thinking of keeping both shells and sell the regular liner but I'm not sure if I'll get a buyer for that.


Couldn't you modify the regular liner to be a wide liner? Seems like you'd just have to take a razor knife to any hotspots. Maybe that's bootfitting 201. Depending on your feet, it could even fit better than a stock wide liner.


----------



## Jack87 (Jan 9, 2021)

WigMar said:


> Couldn't you modify the regular liner to be a wide liner? Seems like you'd just have to take a razor knife to any hotspots. Maybe that's bootfitting 201. Depending on your feet, it could even fit better than a stock wide liner.


Yes... You can even take a Dremel to thin it out. Basically where the wildest part if the foot is. The wide liner in the Burton foots has it cut out and a thin elastic fabric put in its place. Regular liner is just thicker foam.


----------



## Craig64 (Jul 16, 2015)

TMAS6033 said:


> @Wiredsport
> 
> Just got a pair of Ions, 28 mondo, to the house. They're a really nice boot (better be for the price! Lol). I don't know if they simply need a heat treat or maybe a custom insole but my toes definitely still feel crunched. Not painful like the 27.5s were but my toes are def. crinkled up. Also, just a note, because I've never owned Burton boots, but the heel bolstering seems a bit lacking and I'm getting some heel lift just walking around. Thoughts? Thanks!


Just email Burton Customer Service and they will send you some J'bars (for free) that velcro into the Ions. These are brilliant and lock in the heel super tight.










Inside the Ions.











Velcro J-Bar mount area.










J-Bars fitted before liner.










This is what they look like after the J-Bars are in. It looks like your foot won't fit in but it's only an illusion as once your foot is in the boot the liner packs out and it's super firm and snug around your Achilles. Most higher end liners in the Burton range will have Achilles shaping already built into the liner but the Velcro J-Bars amplify this even further.


----------



## Jack87 (Jan 9, 2021)

I posted image comparison wide vs regular in a post before...









Burton Step On Hot Spot issues


Has anyone had issues with pain on top of the front pinky toe where the engagement point is? I'm riding the photons with the correct size boot (boots are comfortable other than this issue), however as the day progresses I'm getting some pain in the front small toe where the engagement is...




www.snowboardingforum.com


----------



## SushiLover (Sep 17, 2020)

Jack87 said:


> So the shell for 9 vs 9.5 are different in Burton I dunno about other manufacturers. You can swap the liner sure but there will definitely be differences in performance. If it was wide vs regular shell the only difference would be the liner and you could use whichever liner you preferred.
> 
> I personally put wide liner in my regular shells. I no longer have my regular liners. If you were selling size 8 regular liners I would have bought it as I'm not really a wide foot. I use step ons and there is something off about them where regular liners were giving me pressure point.
> 
> ...



I called Burton and they said both sizes (9 and 9.5) use the same shell. The wide has a wide liner than the regular. If that's the case I should be able to swap both liners in both shells, Am I correct?. I can also try to modify the regular like what @WigMar said. I need to look at both liners side by side and see if it's too much work for any modification.


----------



## Jack87 (Jan 9, 2021)

SushiLover said:


> I called Burton and they said both sizes (9 and 9.5) use the same shell.


Ok this is interesting as it contradicts my experience. I could see 9.5 and 10 being the same... As the example of the step ons I made showed how 8.5 step on will not fit in a small binding but 8 will...

Here is a link to Burton binding size chart for regular bindings. As you can see the size small tops out at size 8 boots... If let's say 8 vs 8.5 shared same shell wouldn't logic suggest that size small binding should top out at a size 8.5 boot?... I would double check with Burton again just in case and maybe do your own measurements as well.

I could see size 9.5 and size 10 sharing a shell or 8.5 and 9 sharing a shell. As the sizing charts for boot to binding sizes matches this logic; as well as what I observed in the women's 7.5 vs 8 sharing same insoles. Maybe the representative got that part confused. Or the size charts are bad.

I do know in step ons a size 8 boot will not work in a size med binding and a size 8.5 boot will not work in size small binding telling me the shells between those sizes are different in the step on series which also would make sense for manufacturing that would be the case for non step on as well.

Binding size chart


https://info.burton.com/hc/en-us/article_attachments/211443467/binding_size_chart.PNG


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## Jack87 (Jan 9, 2021)

If you wanted to modify the regular there are multiple approaches you could take. I personally would take a Dremel with a sanding drum and thin out the foam little by little trying it on each time to see if it fits.


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## SushiLover (Sep 17, 2020)

Jack87 said:


> Ok this is interesting as it contradicts my experience. I could see 9.5 and 10 being the same... As the example of the step ons I made showed how 8.5 step on will not fit in a small binding but 8 will...
> 
> Here is a link to Burton binding size chart for regular bindings. As you can see the size small tops out at size 8 boots... If let's say 8 vs 8.5 shared same shell wouldn't logic suggest that size small binding should top out at a size 8.5 boot?... I would double check with Burton again just in case and maybe do your own measurements as well.
> 
> ...



This is what one of the Burton reps said

"My product specialist confirmed the shell of the half sizes are in fact a half size bigger. The shells should be find to interchange between half sizes though. My product specialist confirmed there's a 1:1 ratio in boots, 9.5 liner means 9.5 shell, 10 liner means 10 shell. Burton is the only company who does this for adult boots so they don't pack out as quickly."

Also per Burton "You could probably fit that 9 in a 9.5 but that 9.5 in a 9 might be a tight fit, they're not designed to do that"


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## Phedder (Sep 13, 2014)

SushiLover said:


> This is what one of the Burton reps said
> 
> "My product specialist confirmed the shell of the half sizes are in fact a half size bigger. The shells should be find to interchange between half sizes though. My product specialist confirmed there's a 1:1 ratio in boots, 9.5 liner means 9.5 shell, 10 liner means 10 shell. *Burton is the only company who does this for adult boots* so they don't pack out as quickly."
> 
> Also per Burton "You could probably fit that 9 in a 9.5 but that 9.5 in a 9 might be a tight fit, they're not designed to do that"


Bullshit.

I know for certain Ride Fuses (and I'd assume many of their other higher end boots) use a 1:1 lasting ratio, a lot of other brands also advertise that they do. I used to ride my 9.5 liners in a 9 shell before those liners died and I started making the 9 liners work with a little cutting/sanding. Fair enough to push the company he works for, but don't try to make it sound like you're the only ones in the game doing it. Dick move.


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## Jack87 (Jan 9, 2021)

SushiLover said:


> This is what one of the Burton reps said
> 
> "My product specialist confirmed the shell of the half sizes are in fact a half size bigger. The shells should be find to interchange between half sizes though. My product specialist confirmed there's a 1:1 ratio in boots, 9.5 liner means 9.5 shell, 10 liner means 10 shell. Burton is the only company who does this for adult boots so they don't pack out as quickly."
> 
> Also per Burton "You could probably fit that 9 in a 9.5 but that 9.5 in a 9 might be a tight fit, they're not designed to do that"


This makes more sense. Now wide vs regular shell is indeed same and difference is only in the liner. 

Now who's to say mixing and matching is not going to get you your ideal fit. Good luck!


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## TMAS6033 (Sep 22, 2021)

Craig64 said:


> Just email Burton Customer Service and they will send you some J'bars (for free) that velcro into the Ions. These are brilliant and lock in the heel super tight.
> 
> View attachment 159717
> 
> ...


This is super helpful. Thank you!


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## Nivek (Jan 24, 2008)

Phedder said:


> Bullshit.
> 
> I know for certain Ride Fuses (and I'd assume many of their other higher end boots) use a 1:1 lasting ratio, a lot of other brands also advertise that they do. I used to ride my 9.5 liners in a 9 shell before those liners died and I started making the 9 liners work with a little cutting/sanding. Fair enough to push the company he works for, but don't try to make it sound like you're the only ones in the game doing it. Dick move.


Can confirm. In fact, MOST brands do 1:1 sizing for their boots at this point. Where Burton IS doing more is the tongue. There are traditionally 3-4 tongue sizes for each model. So an 11 is getting the same tongue as a 13. 7 as a 9. Which effects some things. Burton is the only brand I know of that does 1:1 for tongues sizing.


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## TMAS6033 (Sep 22, 2021)

Update for anyone following/ curious. It's been a saga for sure. 

Anyways.. after going to a board shop (to get size 10 Ions heat fitted) and getting contradicting info there, contacting manufacturers directly (Vans, Rome, etc...) and being told to buy true to my shoe size from said manufacturers, I finally threw my hands up, said eff it, and decided to figure things out trusting my own intuition while keeping @Wiredsport 's advice in mind- trying to size down as much as possible. I proceeded to order many pairs of boots ranging from sizes 10-11 from several major manufacturers. I bought Burton Photons/ Ions, Ride Lassos, Vans Invado Pros, 32 TM-2s/ Lashed, and Rome Libertines/ Bodegas. The Rome Libertines and Bodegas arrived last and I knew the second I slipped my foot into the size 10s (28 mondo) that they were the ones. They were a bit uncomfortable for sure but they were just right for my foot and I knew it instantly. I proceeded to heat mold them myself using the REI method and couldn't be happier. For anyone interested, they are an incredibly high quality boot for the price. IMO, they are superior in quality to the $500+ Burton Ions (after comparing the two side/ side) but at around $340. I paired them with custom Remind insoles that I heat molded and traced/ cut to size. I also talked directly with Rome's CS and determined that I will be riding their M/L bindings for superior response. Stoked that I was able to find a boot that fit my foot well and allowed me to size (2 whole sizes) down! What a journey ha! Anyways, I'm heading out in January to ride NH, VT, and CO for a month. Ready to rip! Thanks for all your help. Happy shredding everyone🏂🤙🤘


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