# Two killed today in a collision -- boooooo!



## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

WTF... 

I'd like to hear some more details about this. How in the hell do you wipe out so hard that it kills two people and puts another in the hospital? Jesus!


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## jegnorge (Feb 15, 2010)

wow! 

with the right skills you can get over 50mph on a snowboard. does anyone else think that the mom was quite careless bringing her young child to a high speed trail?


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## Toecutter (Oct 11, 2009)

jegnorge said:


> wow!
> 
> with the right skills you can get over 50mph on a snowboard. *does anyone else think that the mom was quite careless bringing her young child to a high speed trail?*


I don't think one can jump to that conclusion based only on the information in the article. Around here there are numerous little kids who can ski as well as many adults. Ski camps start at age 3 and DH racing camp starts at age 5. My own 6 year-old has been skiing since she was 3 and can cover most of the mountain, at a pretty decent speed too. Regardless of age, everyone is _supposed_ to ski/ride under control at all times, which includes being able to stop or avoid collisions. I know it doesn't happen though.


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## BurtonAvenger (Aug 14, 2007)

Snowboarder, 5-Year-Old Dead After Collision at Boardistan There's a bit more detail here. But I'll say this from years of living in resort towns parents are completely stupid with their kids on the snow like all sense of parental duty and preservation goes out the window. Almost crushed a kid today in Parklane at Breck when hitting a 30 foot jump.


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## Toecutter (Oct 11, 2009)

BurtonAvenger said:


> Snowboarder, 5-Year-Old Dead After Collision at Boardistan There's a bit more detail here. But I'll say this from years of living in resort towns parents are completely stupid with their kids on the snow like all sense of parental duty and preservation goes out the window. Almost crushed a kid today in Parklane at Breck when hitting a 30 foot jump.


None of the articles I've read so far say much about the circumstances other than the run has a "difficult" rating, which doesn't necessarily mean anything. 

I don't know how much the kid's age or her mother's parenting skills should factor into this accident, as the mother in this story is an adult and she got clobbered too.


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## jegnorge (Feb 15, 2010)

it seems obvious that the mom and kid were hidden by the hill's terrain, if the boarder saw them miles away he would've easily dodged them. who would purposefully run into people at high speeds? as for the going to fast for your skill level. when it comes to stopping, it's purely physics. you can be the best boarder in the world but you can't stop from, for example, 30mph to 0 in 5 ft.


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## Snowfox (Dec 26, 2009)

This seems very strange... I realize you can reach some pretty high speeds, but I'm surprised that three people were injured so badly that two are dead and one is still in the hospital.
I'm wondering where on the black diamond they were stopped. That could shed a lot of light on what happened. 

Just a reminder for everyone to play it safe out there. No matter how cool you think you look, it's not worth anyone's life (even if they technically were at fault).


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## Zee (Feb 21, 2008)

Horrible... pretty obvious the boarder was out of control if he hit the little girl.


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## LouG (Sep 1, 2008)

Everyone is pointing fingers at the mom and kid. Could just have easily been one of those dudes that doesn't know how to snowboard except to just go fast, saw them coming, didn't have the skill to stop or turn and just crashed into them.


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## Toecutter (Oct 11, 2009)

jegnorge said:


> it seems obvious that the mom and kid were hidden by the hill's terrain, if the boarder saw them miles away he would've easily dodged them. who would purposefully run into people at high speeds? as for the going to fast for your skill level. when it comes to stopping, it's purely physics. you can be the best boarder in the world but you can't stop from, for example, 30mph to 0 in 5 ft.


The boarder could have lost control on ice above them and careened into them. Last week we read about knuckleheads purposely skiing or riding way too close to other people. I'm not saying it wasn't caused by the mom and kid, but let's not blame them yet without knowing much of anything here. All we know so far is that the mom and kid were stopped on a "difficult" run and the man collided into them.


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## BurtonAvenger (Aug 14, 2007)

Toecutter said:


> None of the articles I've read so far say much about the circumstances other than the run has a "difficult" rating, which doesn't necessarily mean anything.
> 
> I don't know how much the kid's age or her mother's parenting skills should factor into this accident, as the mother in this story is an adult and she got clobbered too.


Just linking to what I'd read. Also not specifically using this incident to question the mothers parenting skills, just stating general observations of years of living in resort towns. Hell this incident could be like what I saw yesterday on peak 9 at Breck. Watched a new snowboarder pointing the run and catch his edge and take out a whole family full on double ejection for the main person he hit and then took out 2 other people. Dude didn't know how to ride but just pointed it and it was a wide open run there weren't any rollers or anything.


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## Zee (Feb 21, 2008)

BurtonAvenger said:


> Just linking to what I'd read. Also not specifically using this incident to question the mothers parenting skills, just stating general observations of years of living in resort towns. Hell this incident could be like what I saw yesterday on peak 9 at Breck. Watched a new snowboarder pointing the run and catch his edge and take out a whole family full on double ejection for the main person he hit and then took out 2 other people. Dude didn't know how to ride but just pointed it and it was a wide open run there weren't any rollers or anything.


When the hill gets busy, I ride uphill of my little girl... mainly because of the "point and gun" skier/rider. Despite this, one ran into her pretty good last year on a green run.


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## Qball (Jun 22, 2010)

green runs scare me more than double blacks


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## Toecutter (Oct 11, 2009)

BurtonAvenger said:


> Just linking to what I'd read. Also not specifically using this incident to question the mothers parenting skills, just stating general observations of years of living in resort towns. Hell this incident could be like what I saw yesterday on peak 9 at Breck. Watched a new snowboarder pointing the run and catch his edge and take out a whole family full on double ejection for the main person he hit and then took out 2 other people. Dude didn't know how to ride but just pointed it and it was a wide open run there weren't any rollers or anything.


Sometimes being on the mountain seems riskier than trying to speed in rush hour traffic. As a parent of two, I'm usually on edge when my kids are skiing/boarding because I'm always on the lookout for something bad that might happen. It makes me anxious as hell but at the same time I want them to get the skills to do and appreciation for sports I love. I can't lock them up at home and hope they somehow become proficient skiers/riders. It's one of those situations where I teach them everything I know on how to be safe and aware, then take a deep breath and hope it all works out. 

It kills me when I see other parents who either don't know or aren't aware enough to manage their kids on the mountain. I saw one family standing on the landing of one of the big jumps in the terrain park as a rider was descending from about three jumps above. I started shouting and waving maniacally at them to "get off the jump NOW!" Fortunately they got out of the way but none too quickly. I think they were baffled as to what my problem was. After the jumper landed the family looked kind of confused, as if they were wondering where the hell that guy just came from.


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## BurtonAvenger (Aug 14, 2007)

See you're a parent that gets it. Classic example was 3 years ago at Keystone I'm in A51 going up the park chair and there on big line jump 3 is Mama, Papa, Baby 1, Baby 2, and Junior skiing in a nice cheese wedge formation. They get to the knuckle of number 3 and Mama pulls out her picnic basket and sets up a full scale picnic on the landing of 3, that jump is 75 feet. Everyone was screaming at them to move and guys aired over them, finally I called ski patrol from my cell phone cause someone was going to die. 

When I was 17 my buddy hit a 25 foot jump at our home mountain spun a back 7 and guess what just happened to ski into the landing while he was in the air? 4 year old that took the edge of his board right to her head. He scalped her. Full blown flap of forehead peeled back skull exposed she's freaking out he's on the ground in shock my other buddy grabbed the girl and slapped snow on her head and called ski patrol. Where were the parents? No where in sight they just let her go do the bunny hill by herself which is right next to the base of the terrain park and she skied over into the landing blind. She survived but got something like 200 stitches in her head.


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## LouG (Sep 1, 2008)

Amen Toecutter.

I don't have any horror stories like BA, but once upon a time I saw a father and his little girl pull up behind the lip of jump where nobody could see them as I was coming in hot to hit it. I had to bail on the jump, but pulled up to the side to let them know nobody above me could see them and they were going to get hurt. The father politely responded, "FUCK YOU, I CAN STOP WHEREVER I WANT". Ignorance is bliss I suppose... until you scalped by an edge.

Good on you for knowing what's up and teaching your kids how to ride smart. Skiing/Snowboarding is dangerous by default, but there are so many ways to make it even more so.


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## Donutz (May 12, 2010)

BurtonAvenger said:


> Where were the parents? No where in sight they just let her go do the bunny hill by herself which is right next to the base of the terrain park and she skied over into the landing blind. She survived but got something like 200 stitches in her head.


Never the fucking mind any of that. How do you think it's ok to let a 4-year old out of your sight _anywhere_ at _any time_ for _any_ reason? Are these people mental?


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## Dano (Sep 16, 2009)

The top of kicking horse is 40 feet of cat track that drops OB on the left and Double Black chutes on the right. To follow along the cat track to the last chair that will get you to one of the top bowls you need to be ripping pretty good. There was a family riding all over the fucking place, I yelled left side, and one of their kids snowplowed right in front of me. I couldn't go left and I was going too fast to drop into a chute blind on the right so I tried to stop. Didn't happen fast enough so i just bailed, trying to slow and remain on the track. My buddy rode right over my arm cutting my glove and hand then he bailed too.

Not only did these fucking clueless parents not keep their kids in a tight group sharing the run, the dad wanted to exchange blows until he realized I was angry enough to kill him and throw him off the fucking hill.


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## Deviant (Dec 22, 2009)

Just showing this, here's the slope in question (Dreadnaught)..










The article said the mom and kid were stopped in the run, so yeah he was either way out of control or didn't see them till it was too late. Sounds like a head to head collision if they were both pronounced dead at the hospital, plus the article mentioned neither were wearing helmets. Probably kid standing above mother on the slope and that's how the mother came through it alive.

Anyways, I cannot tell you how many times I've seen unattended little kids snow plow skiing their way through the park here and I just don't get the mindset of the parents. Day before yesterday I was standing at the bar which overlooks a black, I saw a kid no taller than my waist POINTING it down that run. Not skill, no control whatsoever. Had the kid not crashed he would've went into the board-check area at full tilt. Where were the parents? Standing 3 feet from me on the balcony laughing with a beer in their hands. It was a very class act when they asked him if he was ok though  (called the kid by name so I knew it was probably them)



Dano said:


> I yelled left side, and one of their kids snowplowed right in front of me.


I seriously question the benefits vs risks when calling left side in a tight area. I'd say the majority of people around our resort that hear "on your left" will look over the left shoulder and end up turning that direction. I suppose it's a good idea for covering your ass just in case something were to happen.


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## LouG (Sep 1, 2008)

Dano said:


> I yelled left side


See, that's on you, this ain't jogging through the park on Sunday. Part of the safety code BS you "sign" when you buy a ticket or pass is skiers downhill have the right of way. It's not on them to avoid you (because they can't see you), you have to avoid them. You should have just stopped man. It sucks, but that's just how it is.


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## Dano (Sep 16, 2009)

I yell left or right as a courtesy when passing someone so they know I'm coming, not so they can yield. It's always intention to leave room as I go around, some skiers are unpredictable though


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## Zee (Feb 21, 2008)

Dano said:


> The top of kicking horse is 40 feet of cat track that drops OB on the left and Double Black chutes on the right. To follow along the cat track to the last chair that will get you to one of the top bowls you need to be ripping pretty good. There was a family riding all over the fucking place, I yelled left side, and one of their kids snowplowed right in front of me. I couldn't go left and I was going too fast to drop into a chute blind on the right so I tried to stop. Didn't happen fast enough so i just bailed, trying to slow and remain on the track. My buddy rode right over my arm cutting my glove and hand then he bailed too.
> 
> Not only did these fucking clueless parents not keep their kids in a tight group sharing the run, the dad wanted to exchange blows until he realized I was angry enough to kill him and throw him off the fucking hill.


If you can't safely get across that cat track, unstrap and skate, I know it sucks but you just can't risk running into people because you don't want to skate for a few feet. That cat track is full of kids and newbs because it's the easiest way down, people aren't always going to get out of your way.

In my experience yelling left/right just makes the person turn that way.


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## Toecutter (Oct 11, 2009)

BurtonAvenger said:


> See you're a parent that gets it. Classic example was 3 years ago at Keystone I'm in A51 going up the park chair and there on big line jump 3 is Mama, Papa, Baby 1, Baby 2, and Junior skiing in a nice cheese wedge formation. They get to the knuckle of number 3 and Mama pulls out her picnic basket and sets up a full scale picnic on the landing of 3, that jump is 75 feet. Everyone was screaming at them to move and guys aired over them, finally I called ski patrol from my cell phone cause someone was going to die.
> 
> When I was 17 my buddy hit a 25 foot jump at our home mountain spun a back 7 and guess what just happened to ski into the landing while he was in the air? 4 year old that took the edge of his board right to her head. He scalped her. Full blown flap of forehead peeled back skull exposed she's freaking out he's on the ground in shock my other buddy grabbed the girl and slapped snow on her head and called ski patrol. Where were the parents? No where in sight they just let her go do the bunny hill by herself which is right next to the base of the terrain park and she skied over into the landing blind. She survived but got something like 200 stitches in her head.


Oh my god, that mid-park picnic break is wrong in so many ways. That 4 y/o cheated death with "only" 200 stitches. Another inch and she could've been taking a ride to the morgue. It was quick thinking of your friend to pack the wound in ice. Maturity varies in kids, but I think 4 years old is still a bit young to be skiing unattended.

LouG, nice of that dad to respond the way he did. People can be so defensive and indignant that it makes you wonder if there's _any_ possible way to get a point across that doesn't involve physical injury.


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## earl_je (Oct 20, 2009)

This is just tragic... doesn't matter who's at fault, the point is, lives were lost. Yes it could have been easily prevented, but that's why it's called an accident seeing as though it shouldn't have happened, but it did. Condolences to the families involved.

As a father of two young kids, I do get protective with them when we're up in the slopes. I always have my son go down first while I'm behind him eyeing other people bombing down runs. When he needs to stop coz he's tired, he immediately sits down even on the middle of the run (kids dont think about getting run over, go figure), but that's when I tell him to move over to the side to prevent other people running over us. As what has been mentioned, no matter how good you are, if you can't see whats immediately in front of you physics would tell you there's no possible way of stopping right away.


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## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

LouG said:


> Amen Toecutter.
> 
> I don't have any horror stories like BA, but once upon a time I saw a father and his little girl pull up behind the lip of jump where nobody could see them as I was coming in hot to hit it. I had to bail on the jump, but pulled up to the side to let them know nobody above me could see them and they were going to get hurt. The father politely responded, "FUCK YOU, I CAN STOP WHEREVER I WANT". Ignorance is bliss I suppose... until you scalped by an edge.
> 
> Good on you for knowing what's up and teaching your kids how to ride smart. Skiing/Snowboarding is dangerous by default, but there are so many ways to make it even more so.


Ya know, I'm a pretty laid back guy, and probably would've done the same thing in that situation. Yeah, those guys caused me to bail on a pretty good sized air, and I could've hurt myself bad, but no harm, no foul. I would've done the same thing and politely let them know what was up. But, I do have my limits. He would've probably gotten to "Fuck you..." before teeth were separated from his gums.


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## rasmasyean (Jan 26, 2008)

I've seen many people stopped just over a hill or even at the landing of a jump. And I've seen near collisions and full contact collisions that result from this as well. I've even stopped over a hill like this before but didn't even realize it. Whoever's "fault" it is, doesn't really matter as people make mistakes. Ppl wipe out and have to rest somewhere and are too dazed to think...or simply overlook things.

I got one of thse last year and now I'm gonna wear it every time I board. I haven't had any major injuries from crashing and stuff (and I DID hit ppl in my earlier snowboarding) but I sure wish I had thought of getting one of these much earlier as it would have prolly saved a bit of pain anyway. You never know when someone is going to hit you even if you're careful...or that hidden piece of ice is arround the corner.

They vary in price (from arround the cost of 2 tickets) but I recommend somethign similar after feeling how much it helps falling on it. I can imagine if a skii/board flies into my body.









Fox Titan Jacket Upper Body Armor


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## CMSbored (Apr 2, 2009)

Ok, first of all, none of you have even been to Hogadon, because its not worth it. That run is not all what you think. The kid was out of control and didnt know what the hell he was doing. It is possible to get going fast there but i feel that its just stupidity and lack of skill.


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## rasmasyean (Jan 26, 2008)

Toecutter said:


> The boarder could have lost control on ice above them and careened into them. Last week we read about knuckleheads purposely skiing or riding way too close to other people. I'm not saying it wasn't caused by the mom and kid, but let's not blame them yet without knowing much of anything here. All we know so far is that the mom and kid were stopped on a "difficult" run and the man collided into them.


I once ran into some skiier like that because of ice. It was in a double black daimond and these two old guys were just stopped in the middle of the trail. I tried to stop but slipped out and next thing you know I clipped one of them at the skii and knocked him down. He was OK but lo an behold ski patrol happened to be right behind me! I was like appologizing like 10 times per second because I thought he was gonna give me a ticket or revoke my pass and arrest me.  But he said that yeah, he did see the ice patch but it was still my responsibility to avoid ppl in front of me so he let me go. But the problem is that not everyone would see that ice patch in time and an "old men in a double black diamond" should know better than to be stopping in the middle of a trail like that chilling out. That's part of the danger of the sport.


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## noahj (Dec 25, 2009)

As i've mentioned on several ocassions here, i'm a new boarder. My 7 year old son is a new skiier this year as well.

We both took lessons this seasons and are obviously in the beginning stages of learning. After 3 lessons, i purposely kept him and myself on the beginner hill a couple more days just to lern safety. Naturally he can pizza down the side of alot of runs, but i refuse to let him do so until he is fully capable of doing so safely.

I've picked up boarding a tad faster than most, but i will not go above the green runs yet....purely for the safety of myself, my son (who skis right by my side), and the other skier/boarders.

We have been out 7 times so far this years and each time we see totally irresponsible parents with their kids. No idea if this is the case with this tragedy, but man people are plan ignorant and irresponsible when it comes to skiing/boarding. I'm also concerned about them not having a helmet. I know alot of people don't wear them, but my son will always wear one and i will as well until i'm better accomplished (which will be a couple years or more).

Sounds like a terrible accident that could have been potentially avoided on a number of levels.


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## rasmasyean (Jan 26, 2008)

noahj said:


> As i've mentioned on several ocassions here, i'm a new boarder. My 7 year old son is a new skiier this year as well.
> 
> We both took lessons this seasons and are obviously in the beginning stages of learning. After 3 lessons, i purposely kept him and myself on the beginner hill a couple more days just to lern safety. Naturally he can pizza down the side of alot of runs, but i refuse to let him do so until he is fully capable of doing so safely.
> 
> ...


Kids have no sense of death. I go boarding with my friend's kid all the time and one constant theme is that he cuts in front of ppl and runs into ppl's...A LOT. I mean, many times he would like bounce off their leg and such but still. He even once dropped down into a half pipe in the middle right in front of me! I was yelling at him but he was just laughing because he "messed me up".  And then the person he runs into starts appologizing for knocking him down while asking if he's all right. Which doesn't help him understand that it's HIS fault. They should just yell at him but he's like so cute that ppl want to be so nice and gentle I guess. :laugh:


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## JoeR (Oct 30, 2010)

rasmasyean said:


> I once ran into some skiier like that because of ice. It was in a double black daimond and these two old guys were just stopped in the middle of the trail. I tried to stop but slipped out and next thing you know I clipped one of them at the skii and knocked him down. He was OK but lo an behold ski patrol happened to be right behind me! I was like appologizing like 10 times per second because I thought he was gonna give me a ticket or revoke my pass and arrest me.  But he said that yeah, he did see the ice patch but it was still my responsibility to avoid ppl in front of me so he let me go. But the problem is that not everyone would see that ice patch in time and an "old men in a double black diamond" should know better than to be stopping in the middle of a trail like that chilling out. That's part of the danger of the sport.


The ski patroller should have chastised the "two old guys" as well as you. Stopping where you may obstruct others is just as much a violation of the Code as failing to avoid people ahead of you.


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## Toecutter (Oct 11, 2009)

CMSbored said:


> Ok, first of all, none of you have even been to Hogadon, because its not worth it. That run is not all what you think. The kid was out of control and didnt know what the hell he was doing. It is possible to get going fast there but i feel that its just stupidity and lack of skill.


Have you gotten more details being local? Any word on the mom's condition?


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## Extremo (Nov 6, 2008)

Fuck this mom...and fuck that article. Keep your kids off terrain they shouldnt be on. And don't stop on blacks.

I'm going to suddenly come to a complete stop on the middle of the highway and see what happens. If I die then it'll be the drivers fault for driving outside of their abilities.


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## ev13wt (Nov 22, 2010)

Extremo said:


> Fuck this mom...and fuck that article. Keep your kids off terrain they shouldnt be on. And don't stop on blacks.
> 
> I'm going to suddenly come to a complete stop on the middle of the highway and see what happens. If I die then it'll be the drivers fault for driving outside of their abilities.


I was gonna rant about people on slopes that are way outside of their abilities and people stopping in the middle of them, preferrably directly after a roller in the spot where you see them after getting airborn at a gazzilion mph... But you said it much better.

Unfortunatly its mostly snowboarders "crews" I see parked in the middle of the run.


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## BurtonAvenger (Aug 14, 2007)

rasmasyean said:


> Kids have no sense of death. I go boarding with my friend's kid all the time and one constant theme is that he cuts in front of ppl and runs into ppl's...A LOT. I mean, many times he would like bounce off their leg and such but still. He even once dropped down into a half pipe in the middle right in front of me! I was yelling at him but he was just laughing because he "messed me up".  And then the person he runs into starts appologizing for knocking him down while asking if he's all right. Which doesn't help him understand that it's HIS fault. They should just yell at him but he's like so cute that ppl want to be so nice and gentle I guess. :laugh:


I had this situation happen to me on the hill 2 years ago. Was standing at the base of Beaver Run and little human bullet hits me from behind and falls over I look down at him then look around for the parent then look down at him and say, "might want to learn some control there little buddy". The mom comes running over and starts yelling at me to pick him up and I look at her and say "what's his name?" she stops dumbfounded by the questions and says Timmy or Johnny it doesn't matter and I say to her, "no what's his last name" she looks at me and says Smith and I respond, "well then he's not mine and it's not my fucking problem put your kid on a leash". The woman shut up instantly. I have no problem letting people know they're in the wrong and then letting them know why. 

One of the most dangerous things on the slopes is an out of control kid on skis with a helmet. They really are human bullets.


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## travis.rice.fan (Sep 20, 2010)

Regardless of whose at fault, this is incredibly sad. 

As for the problem, I is difficult to fault anyone in this given situation because I do not know the details. 
However, I feel that the mother should not have stopped with her child in the middle of a black diamond trail. At the same time, the snowboarder was more than likely out of control unless the mother and child were stopped on the blind side of a bump or something, which again, would be absolutely ridiculous.

I am absolutely amazed that a collision killed both involved.. How does that even happen? I could understand if the snowboarders board hit the young girl in the head, but then how was the snowboarder killed? Just terrible.


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## BurtonAvenger (Aug 14, 2007)

travis.rice.fan said:


> I could understand if the snowboarders board hit the young girl in the head, but then how was the snowboarder killed? Just terrible.


Freak sasquatch attack.


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## Snowfox (Dec 26, 2009)

I'm really concerned with the amount of people I see on this forum making statements regarding running into other people and then claiming that it's not their fault. If someone is in a place no one can see from uphill and are stopped then that's one thing. If they're on the run, you should be able to go around them safely, even if it means that you might have to take runs slower than normal and give people wider berths when passing. If you're running into someone, maybe you're not actually as good as you think you are... 

And yelling out "on your left" or "on your right" and expecting the other person to react favorably is just plain stupid. Half the people won't be able to react in time to your shout and the other half won't hear it anyways (think of how many people ski or snowboard with music on or helmets/beanies). 

(Please don't take this as a post condemning anyone who runs into someone. Accidents do happen, we just need to realize when it actually is OUR fault and accept/learn from it rather than blame someone else)


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## jegnorge (Feb 15, 2010)

travis.rice.fan said:


> I am absolutely amazed that a collision killed both involved.. How does that even happen? I could understand if the snowboarders board hit the young girl in the head, but then how was the snowboarder killed? Just terrible.


a person can die from a blow to the head as slow as 10mph... that's one possibility.


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## rasmasyean (Jan 26, 2008)

BurtonAvenger said:


> Freak sasquatch attack.


I'm guessing the crash sent them flying into the trees. Many ppl died hitting trees. If you don't get impaled by the branches, it's like hitting a concrete pillar. I tried to hug one in a glades before to "stop"...what a big mistake. That hurt!


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## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

Snowfox said:


> I'm really concerned with the amount of people I see on this forum making statements regarding running into other people and then claiming that it's not their fault. If someone is in a place no one can see from uphill and are stopped then that's one thing. If they're on the run, you should be able to go around them safely, even if it means that you might have to take runs slower than normal and give people wider berths when passing. If you're running into someone, maybe you're not actually as good as you think you are...
> 
> And yelling out "on your left" or "on your right" and expecting the other person to react favorably is just plain stupid. Half the people won't be able to react in time to your shout and the other half won't hear it anyways (think of how many people ski or snowboard with music on or helmets/beanies).
> 
> (Please don't take this as a post condemning anyone who runs into someone. Accidents do happen, we just need to realize when it actually is OUR fault and accept/learn from it rather than blame someone else)


As to hitting people, most of the time it is the fault of the "hitter" being out of control or riding/skiing outside of his ability. However, like others have said, if you're stopped in an area where you're blind to up hill traffic, then you're putting yourself in a terrible spot. How can you fault someone for hitting a person who is invisible to them until they've basically already hit them?

As to yelling out "on your left" or whatever, I never do it. IMO, it often causes more problems than it avoids. You'll either freak someone out and they'll fall or they'll end up veering right into you trying to look over their shoulder to find you.


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## Snowfox (Dec 26, 2009)

linvillegorge said:


> As to hitting people, most of the time it is the fault of the "hitter" being out of control or riding/skiing outside of his ability. However, like others have said, if you're stopped in an area where you're blind to up hill traffic, then you're putting yourself in a terrible spot. How can you fault someone for hitting a person who is invisible to them until they've basically already hit them?


Regarding being stopped in a place where you're blind to uphill traffic, that was basically the one exception I put in the original post. "...If someone is in a place no one can see from uphill and are stopped then that's one thing..." 

I've seen posts where there was no indication of this (or even admittance that they could see the person). I personally think it's unacceptable to try to pass the blame onto someone else in that circumstance. Man up, admit you're wrong, and learn from it so we can cut down on the accidents on the slopes. 


I completely agree with mpdsnowman. Especially on stories that can't be told on this forum about running into fine ladies while on the mountains. 
... wish I had one.


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## caneyhead (Jan 5, 2009)

"reminds me of motorcycles poaching the hiking and biking trails. no, they don't have to be a menace, but they chose to be, and consequently are.
maybe the lawsuit from this will cause more resort attorneys to look at snow boarding as an intrinsically dangerous activity because an emergency maneuver is so difficult, if not impossible (for intermediate and advanced), to accomplish. I would say good riddance!
*
condolences to the skiers families and friends. so sad"

Quoted from epic ski forum. You knew it was coming sooner or later. Credit given to many skiers that disputed abovE claim.


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## Toecutter (Oct 11, 2009)

On another website a poster said he was on the chairlift right above the accident and saw the crash. The run is a "massive groomer" that would be classified as a blue run at most other resorts, and the mom and daughter were "struggling but not completely out of their league." Apparently the girl had some difficulty and the mom skied over to her. As they were stopped right over the top of "a small wave in the middle of the run" the snowboarder came straightlining it down the hill in a tuck and estimated at 40mph-50mph, riding into the mom and daughter. Everybody ragdolled and was out cold. The poster said as he rode the lift up again there was a "full-on triage scene" with Patrol doing CPR on all three people. He heard someone calling for suction as they took the girl away down the hill.


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## justdust (Jan 27, 2009)

mpdsnowman said:


> I am the experienced rider/skier... that puts the burden of safety on me and the other experienced riders/skiers because we have the ability to compensate.


Amen brother.

There is no such thing as someone below you that you cannot see if you are looking where you are going. If you are going too fast to see them you are going too fast. If you want big air, ride with a buddy and take turns riding ahead to make sure the landing zone is safe. Old men stop on blacks to catch their breath...riders pushing their skills go down blacks for the first time...more youthful or skillful riders do not own the mountain. We all have to share.

The importance of this thread is not to figure out who was to blame for this tragedy, but to remind us all of our responsibility to ride under control and to expect the unexpected.


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## Tarzanman (Dec 20, 2008)

Found this post on the teton gravity forums:



> Posted by LukeS
> I was on the chairlift right above this right when it happened... It was a case of everybody was in the wrong.
> The run is a massive groomer on most resorts it would be a blue, think buddies run at steamboat. In the middle of the run there is a little bit of wave, just enough to make visibility hard.
> I'm guilty of making speed runs down. Its a great run to get comfortable with speed and its the race hill so everybody goes fast down it. This boarder tho was extreme on the limits. When I am skiing the run I tend to make a speed check at the rollers. Unless its closed for a race I am always carefull on these rollers.
> ...


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## BurtonAvenger (Aug 14, 2007)

justdust said:


> There is no such thing as someone below you that you cannot see if you are looking where you are going.


That's a bullshit statement. Go look at any jump set up in Parklane in Breck you can't see the landings till you're in the air. Rollers are part of the terrain and on a windy run someone could be below it. Then there's the snowboarders blind spot because we do not face downhill and have 180 degrees of vision right in front of us. People are stupid and stop where they shouldn't.


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## LouG (Sep 1, 2008)

linvillegorge said:


> Ya know, I'm a pretty laid back guy, and probably would've done the same thing in that situation. Yeah, those guys caused me to bail on a pretty good sized air, and I could've hurt myself bad, but no harm, no foul. I would've done the same thing and politely let them know what was up. But, I do have my limits. He would've probably gotten to "Fuck you..." before teeth were separated from his gums.


Haha... yah, I wanted to. But you've got the little girl there, and I really love riding at Bear and that's one of those situation where grungy local snowboard kid loses his pass versus weekend-vacation skier family.


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## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

BurtonAvenger said:


> That's a bullshit statement. Go look at any jump set up in Parklane in Breck you can't see the landings till you're in the air. Rollers are part of the terrain and on a windy run someone could be below it. Then there's the snowboarders blind spot because we do not face downhill and have 180 degrees of vision right in front of us. People are stupid and stop where they shouldn't.


Breck is a good example. There are numerous signs posted on Peak 7 that natural rollers are part of the terrain and to NOT stop below them as descending traffic cannot see you.


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## BurtonAvenger (Aug 14, 2007)

There's signs on peak 7 about the rollers? Fuck I need to go investigate that I'm never on those runs enough to notice.


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## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

Yep, hang skiers' left off the lift and theres a few signs about not stopping below the rollers. They're yellow.


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## roremc (Oct 25, 2009)

Wow what a horrible story. 

That poor mother. I feel for her. Waking up to that nightmare would be terrible! 

The last couple of weeks I have been riding with friends that are new to the sport. One thing I noticed is that when they crash (fairly often) they often stay on the ground for a few seconds to catch their breath no matter where they are sitting. I explained what would happen if you are sitting on the low side of a roller and someone comes over that jump. I'm amazed during the lessons they had this was never mentioned. Seems like safety 101?

Are helmets mandatory for kids at any resorts? I know at my local hill you have to have one if you are under 16 and in ski school. Having said that you never see the little kids without one.


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## Tarzanman (Dec 20, 2008)

Its hard for me to imagine going so fast that hitting people (who are generally soft) would kill two of them and leave one in critical condition in the hospital. The snowboarder must have been going insanely fast

If you are doing risky stuff, then wear your helmets


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## Leo (Nov 24, 2009)

I can easily see how a 4 year old would die in a collision. Heck, doesn't even have to be a high speed collision for that. Something tells me it's not the collision itself that killed the snowboarder though. Probably something he hit afterwards or how he ended up falling after hitting the girl. The girl, I absolutely see dieing from the rider impact though.

Without knowing details, I can say this much. I would never take my 4 year old down a black run only to stop mid-run. I don't care how good my kid is. If we stop, we stop somewhere off to the side. I had to stop many times at Tahoe because my lungs just weren't used to the elevation. I stopped in smart areas way off to the side and on flats so downhillers could see me well ahead of time.

However, the girl could have fell and was simply in the process of recovering. Not enough information to point fingers just yet. For now, both parties are at fault. Sucks badly.

By the way, this is the reason why I don't drink too much while snowboarding. I don't want anything to impair my judgment on the slopes, if not for my own health, for others.


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## gjsnowboarder (Sep 1, 2009)

I'm in full agreement with Snowolf on this one. It is WAY to early to make judgement calls on who was at fault. That being said this is a good reminder that to be aware at all times due to clueless poeple on the hill. It doesn't matter what type of gear they have on their feet. Stupidty and recklessness is not a trait of any one type of sliding discipline.


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## Zee (Feb 21, 2008)

Snowfox said:


> I'm really concerned with the amount of people I see on this forum making statements regarding running into other people and then claiming that it's not their fault. If someone is in a place no one can see from uphill and are stopped then that's one thing. If they're on the run, you should be able to go around them safely, even if it means that you might have to take runs slower than normal and give people wider berths when passing. If you're running into someone, maybe you're not actually as good as you think you are...
> 
> And yelling out "on your left" or "on your right" and expecting the other person to react favorably is just plain stupid. Half the people won't be able to react in time to your shout and the other half won't hear it anyways (think of how many people ski or snowboard with music on or helmets/beanies).
> 
> (Please don't take this as a post condemning anyone who runs into someone. Accidents do happen, we just need to realize when it actually is OUR fault and accept/learn from it rather than blame someone else)


I have to agree with this...

Short of someone parked on the other side of a park landing, there's really no excuse to hit someone in front of you.


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## roremc (Oct 25, 2009)

Just a quick update on this one - Coroner IDs girl killed in ski accident

Turns out the girl was wearing a helmet. 

Very sad.


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## killclimbz (Aug 10, 2007)

Well at least the Helmet nazi's can stfu. 

Super sad story. My gut feeling is the snowboarder was being overly reckless, but it's hard to say. The TGR description of the event is the best one out there. Regardless, two young people lost their lives over this. That is just horrible.


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## JoeR (Oct 30, 2010)

killclimbz said:


> Well at least the Helmet nazi's can stfu.


Non sequitur. Helmets don't protect the ribs, heart, liver, kidneys, etc., nor do I believe any helmet advocates, "nazis" or otherwise, have claimed that they do. It's understandable that in this case, before virtually any details were available, people would have wondered whether the deaths were attributable to head injuries. But I see no evidence that the tragedy has been hijacked as some sort of pro-helmet propaganda.


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## killclimbz (Aug 10, 2007)

I wasn't commenting on the fact that they were killed by other injuries unrelated to head trauma. Every time a thread that comes up like this, we get someone who asks if they were wearing a helmet. Regardless if the injuries would have been survivable either way. I for one am glad we don't have to re tread the helmet argument on this one, yet again...


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## JoeR (Oct 30, 2010)

Well, even the initial press reports alluded briefly to the helmet question. As I said, I think it's understandable, because people wonder. It's a bit like mentioning whether the victim of an auto accident was wearing a seat belt. Many people want to know. However, you're right that this event apparently will not be skewed in that direction of debate. It seems more likely that it will provide some ammunition for the old skiers vs. riders feud (unfortunate), or maybe it will promote better efforts to disseminate _and enforce_ the on-mountain code of responsibility (a good thing).


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## killclimbz (Aug 10, 2007)

This type of accident seems to happen every few years. Jackson Hole several years ago had a snowboarder haul ass down a slope and collide with a female skier killing her. He survived and ended up facing man slaughter charges I believe. He got off fairly lightly actually. 

Several years before that a ski racer at Breckenridge was bombing down a the mountain outside of an organized event. Came hot over a roll went air borne and collided with an older snowboarder, killing both. 

These a just two off the top of my head I can think of. There have been several more over the years. This crap happens unfortunately. About the best we can hope for is to increase the time between this sort of incident. Riding in control is a huge part. Being smart about where you are positioned is another.


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## JoeR (Oct 30, 2010)

killclimbz said:


> About the best we can hope for is to increase the time between this sort of incident. Riding in control is a huge part. Being smart about where you are positioned is another.


As I noted elsewhere in this thread, I think it's important to emphasize that there were probably two separate serious mistakes that contributed to this accident. If the story devolves into just another "reckless riding" tale, that will be counterproductive. People need to ski/ride defensively, just as they are told to drive defensively. Don't count on the other guy to miss you -- actively try to keep out of harm's way.


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## killclimbz (Aug 10, 2007)

Well, overall from what I have read, I do tend to believe that the snowboarder is the majority at fault. Then again, there are a lot of facts and tidbits of information we may never know.


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## JoeR (Oct 30, 2010)

The story is already being spun in different ways, even with incomplete information. For example, the "Coroner IDs girl killed in ski accident" article says:


> Witnesses have said Shirley was snowboarding at a high speed Friday when he collided with Elise and her mother, who were skiing but had stopped on the black run, which is rated difficult.


The "KWHS grad died in snowboarding accident" article says:


> Craig Shirley, 23, died after a colliding with a mother and her 5-year-old daughter who were stopped in the middle of the difficult, black diamond-rated Dreadnaught run, which was covered in glare ice, David Shirley said.
> ...
> The details of the accident are still being investigated, and David Shirley objected to those who have speculated about what happened, he said.


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## Extremo (Nov 6, 2008)

Looks like I'm going to have to play put-put on the slopes from now on, because people don't realize others are coming from uphill.

What next? Mandatory GPS trackers and Slopeside cops handing out tickets? I can hear it now, "Keep that under 15mph, son. There's little kids around."


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## killclimbz (Aug 10, 2007)

Casper is not a large town by any means. I am sure all sorts of crazy talk is going to be generated out of there.


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## killclimbz (Aug 10, 2007)

Extremo said:


> Looks like I'm going to have to play put-put on the slopes from now on, because people don't realize others are coming from uphill.
> 
> What next? Mandatory GPS trackers and Slopeside cops handing out tickets? I can hear it now, "Keep that under 15mph, son. There's little kids around."


Ride in the backcountry and don't worry about it? :dunno:


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## Extremo (Nov 6, 2008)

killclimbz said:


> Ride in the backcountry and don't worry about it? :dunno:


I live in NH...no such thing as backcountry...And I ride park. You wouldn't believe how many parents bring their 5 yr olds into main park. How am I supposed to get enough speed to hit the sweet spot on a 50 ft jump if I have to worry about 5 yr olds? And for this look before you leap shit is fucking ridiculous. How am I supposed to see what is over the knuckle of a step up? The rule needs to be: Stay the fuck out of the way...I follow it, so should everyone else.


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## killclimbz (Aug 10, 2007)

Well as to your dilemma, you are kind of comparing apples to oranges. Sure you are inbounds, but to use several park features safely you have to go fast. Never a bad idea to try to make sure your landings are clean, but this accident happened on a run, not the park. A little more discretion in your riding style is a good idea when you cruising any run at the resort. There is nothing orderly about that except for the fact that people are going down. The park, as chaotic as it can be, does typically have a code of conduct to it. Though, as you mentioned you get the idiot parents who think that because it has the word "park" in it, it's okay for their little kids and to do stupid shit in there.


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## Toecutter (Oct 11, 2009)

Here's a vid of the run. 

YouTube - Casper - Hogadon Ski Area


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## rasmasyean (Jan 26, 2008)

Toecutter said:


> Here's a vid of the run.
> 
> YouTube - Casper - Hogadon Ski Area


That doesn't look like a black. Unless there are supposed to be moguls on it that they haven't got arround to make...


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## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

rasmasyean said:


> That doesn't look like a black. Unless there are supposed to be moguls on it that they haven't got arround to make...


Everything I've seen says that it was a black, but would be a steep blue at most western resorts.


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## BurtonAvenger (Aug 14, 2007)

People need to remember trail ratings are based off the terrain at each individual resort it's not universal. A black at one could be a green at another.


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## AlexS (Feb 12, 2010)

Collisions don't happen much, and death as the result of one is even more odd. There will always be the not so good rider who thinks he's an absolute boss, and the horrible riders looking for a challenge. Thankfully most people learn quickly what is and isn't right to do, and hopefully the rest will just stay out of my way.


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## Toecutter (Oct 11, 2009)

Cut/Pasted from TGR from the poster LukeS aka Tekekid, who witnessed the wreck:




> I am the TGR poster that gave the witness report over there...
> The run is a black diamond on the map, Blue in reality. Like hoka said it is the local speed run. I make laps on it all the time. I've clocked myself using a GPS speedo going 45 down it. Its big open and screams GS TURNS. On the run there are 2 spots with just enough of a wave that when going fast and in a tuck they have just enough wave to block whats on the other side. Not a roller, just a wave enough to kill up-close visibity for a second or 2.
> 
> The boarder came on the run. Tucked and full out. No turns at all just straight. Considering that same day I had hit 38 on that run, I am guesing that the boarder was running about 50 MPH.
> ...


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## Leo (Nov 24, 2009)

Based on that witness' account, I don't place blame squarely on the shoulders of the rider. I was right in my assumption then. Both parties were at fault. I'm so sorry it happened this way, but it could have been avoided easily if either of the parties made a minor adjustment:

The rider could have been more cautious and rode in a manner where he had full control

The parent could have moved to the side with her daughter. The daughter was able to go down to the parent so the mom could have easily had her move out of the way of the run.

Ride safe guys and this is a tragic example of why you should always consider others on the mountain. As well, you should be wary of other riders.

Don't choose a busy day to test your skills on a fast run. Don't stop in the middle if you can avoid it (obviously accidents happen and it's not always easy to move out of the way after a fall). People ahead always have the right of way, but be considerate if you are the one in front.

My condolences to both families.


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## nodaysoff (Dec 4, 2008)

What a tragedy

Quick question:
Is there anything that can be done to prevent such accident from happening, more so just heightening peoples awareness on the slopes? Making EVERYONE aware, from the skier/rider who's there just for the holidays, school trip, etc to the skier/rider who has some experience from being on the mountain on a regular basis.

I was thinking maybe resort can hand out a "quick guide" card about the size of a lift ticket with each lift ticket purchase stating things like "pull over to the far right when stopping", "skiers/riders of certain age should be supervised", "people ahead of you have the right of way" or whatever. Something short, sweet, and straight to the point in bold letters. I'm sure putting this info on the back of the ticket would do no good because most people just clip it 
on and go. But if its additional paper work with some sort of attraction (future goods advertised or pro rider pic) people would at least give it a glance. 

To me being on the mountain is very similar to being on the road. You have trails intersecting one another, large amounts of people moving at various speeds, blind spots, different skill sets, experience, age, the list goes on. I mean...........it probably wouldn't be to bad of an idea to have signs along the runs stating things like "rest here", or "if you must stop move far right or far left". Just, I don't know, this shit is crazy. There's gotta be a set of standards out there, rather then the assumption that people should know thesethings. I'm thankful for coming across this forum when I did because I learned a shit load of things from basic riding to park etiquette, etc considering I ride alone most the time and don't have that guidance from someone who knows the 
ropes. 

Incidents like this reminds me of a time I was at Camelback and almost had a couple run ins with a group of kids that were there on a school trip. The scene was just reckless, they where 
literally crashing into one another at every turn of the trail as if there were bowling pins awaiting there arrival at each turn. At one point they almost took my cousin out who was just ahead of me. 

Just crazy.....I'm sure something can be done with out taking away too much from the sport:dunno:


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## Altephor (Feb 4, 2010)

I find it kind of disgusting that the rider was that out of control that he slammed them. I mean, unless he was directly behind them and they suddenly stopped, then he had time to bail. Obviously I don't know all the factors here, but my number one rule is if I'm getting out of control, just fall and maybe hurt myself rather than risking other people. I almost nailed a little girl last season coming up over a small kicker, I couldn't see her on the other side. Soon as she came in view I bailed off the side and drew my knees up in a ball... the crash hurt like hell but at least the girl wasn't decapitated.

Things like this scare the shit out of me, because I am not that good and spend a lot of time on the ground. This is why I stick to bunny trails and green even though I could do blues and some mild blacks, because I am afraid of catching an edge and falling mid run and having someone slam me. It's already happened once, got slammed in the head by a boarder when I fall in front of him and he couldn't avoid me. Luckily, no major damage but I did take a sled ride on that one. 

The other thing is, if you are hit or hit someone else, best just to call the patrol and get a lift down. When I got hit I thought I was fine and could make it down. Ended up almost blacking out on the middle of the mountain. Luckily two friends of mine saw me off the chair lift, one jumped and ran over to me while the other went to the top and got patrol.


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## 509Trevor (Nov 8, 2010)

Seeing all these stories of people stopping in the middle of the park as a family or just kids makes me glad my mountain has a Park Pass system. You buy one for 15 dollars gets you access to the park for the year, you have to take a test also about safety in the park. They check it everytime you go in too and they have the park somewhat segragated and completely roped off with some netting to keep people from cutting in.


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## naklik (Dec 30, 2010)

This is awfull!

I'm a begginer boarder and several times I've had to trow myself into the snow (can't compesate quickly at the moment) to avoid hitting small children who just skii/board across the hill or stop at random places without any regard of others. And their parents (if there) don't seem to think their kids actions as something abnormal.......


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## Toecutter (Oct 11, 2009)

Follow-up:

Investigators conclude probe of Hogadon deaths


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## JoeR (Oct 30, 2010)

Toecutter said:


> Follow-up:
> 
> Investigators conclude probe of Hogadon deaths


Some notes:

1. The report of the investigation makes no findings with regard to fault. The district attorney concluded, on the basis of the report, that there had been no "chargeable activity." In other words, no crime had been committed, even assuming that all potential defendants were still alive. Claims of civil liability would be not be precluded by either the report or the DA's decision.

2. Multiple statements from ski patrollers indicated that the surface of the slope at the time of the accident was packed, machine-made snow. There may have been some icy spots, but apparently the slope was not "glare ice," as had been alleged.

3. The snowboarder in a previous year had been "written up" by the ski patrol (it's not clear exactly what this form of discipline entails) for doing exactly what he was reported to have been doing at the time of the accident: bombing the Dreadnaught slope at high speed, without making any turns.

4. According to the article, the coroner's toxicology report stated that a small amount of cannabinoids has been found in the snowboarder's blood. However, the toxicology report itself is not attached to the report of the investigation that can be downloaded, although apparently it is supposed to be there.


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## jackkelly94 (Jan 18, 2011)

Fark thats crazy, probably was the snowboarders fault though, I mean if it was just the mum being careless about her daughter it would be odd for her to be injured to.


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## rasmasyean (Jan 26, 2008)

I ran into a ski instructor once too. That might have something to do with it as well. Sometimes you see ski instructors just stop at random places to "give instruction" or something. Like they have to do it that exact moment to "capture the problem" I guess and concentrate on giving a long scphew. If she was such an "expert" she should know better than to stand there with a lttle kid, but maybe she was just too into the moment and didnt' realize the danger.


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## sepdxsnwbrdr (Feb 5, 2010)

The snowboarder should be charged with manslaughter, reckless endangerment, etc...

At the very least he will be facing a wrongful death suit.


We all go to the mountain to have a good time, but when your "good time" threatens the safety of others there needs to be consequences.


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## Toecutter (Oct 11, 2009)

sepdxsnwbrdr said:


> The snowboarder should be charged with manslaughter, reckless endangerment, etc...
> 
> At the very least he will be facing a wrongful death suit.


Ummm...might be hard to enforce.


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## JoeR (Oct 30, 2010)

Toecutter said:


> Ummm...might be hard to enforce.


There probably _will_ be a wrongful death suit against his estate. Criminal prosecution is another matter, of course.


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## Deviant (Dec 22, 2009)

sepdxsnwbrdr said:


> We all go to the mountain to have a good time, but when your "good time" threatens the safety of others there needs to be consequences.


I think his death is a pretty big consequence.


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## lucie (Jan 24, 2011)

sepdxsnwbrdr said:


> We all go to the mountain to have a good time, but when your "good time" threatens the safety of others there needs to be consequences.


So true, when I was in lessons another guy in my group plowed into me full-speed 3 times. He just pointed his board down the hill despite the fact that he'd never been on one and then he would spectacularly crash into me (and tons of other people.) And he'd always say 'oh, I thought I could maneuver around you.' If you're going to hit someone, BAIL! I'd sooner give myself a good knock than plow into a child. A little common sense and common courtesy.

Of course it sounds like this circumstance was different but again a little consideration for others on the hill is good and a little respect for your ability level. (i.e. Don't go full speed if you can't even do falling leaf yet!) Even if someone is wrong for stopping in the middle you might not get a chance to argue with them about it afterwards.


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## Leo (Nov 24, 2009)

Why are you guys blaming the snowboarder? His written warning from years ago doesn't really prove anything. Could have been a misunderstanding. Maybe the ski patrol guy over-reacted. You can also tell that eyewitness statements aren't consistent.

Also, would him turning have made any difference? I can carve down a black and still be going at a fast speed. The girl was just that... a girl. She also didn't have a helmet. I'm sorry, it sucks, but there was no chance for her even if the snowboarder was going a little slower from turning. 

Lastly, one consistent account of this terrible accident points to the high probability that the snowboarder couldn't have seen the mother and daughter in time.

Look, most of us have bombed down runs before. Heck, I am even willing to wager that a lot of us have B-lined down several. This was just a freak accident.

Lessons to be learned though. If it's a busy day at the mountain, take it easy. If you want to bomb down a run, make sure you are very familiar with it first so you can deliberately go slow around blind corners and rollers. Do your bombing when you have a clear open view well ahead of you. If for any reason you have to stop, make sure you promptly move to the side. If you lose a ski, pick it up and move. Don't try to put it back on in the middle of the run. As a snowboarder, I've lost my gear before like goggles and such. I picked it up, moved to the side, and put it on there.

Condolences to both parties and those close to them. Let's not play the blame game here. Walk away with some extra knowledge about riding safety.


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## lucie (Jan 24, 2011)

I'm not blaming the snowboarder, I certainly am in no place to comment on who's at fault (if anyone... bad luck maybe). I just meant everyone needs to remember that there are varying levels of ability out there and other people who are unpredictable and not under your control. 

Sounds like this guy was pretty experienced and knew that run well. What a shame.


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## little devil (Aug 18, 2009)

You can be written up for bombing runs? Fuck man, how the hell am I supposed to have fun on a hill with a vertical of 250ft...


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## Leo (Nov 24, 2009)

little devil said:


> You can be written up for bombing runs? Fuck man, how the hell am I supposed to have fun on a hill with a vertical of 250ft...


And here I thought I was miserable riding on 500ft of vertical :laugh::laugh::laugh:

Here's to making trips to big boy mountains every year :thumbsup:


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## Toecutter (Oct 11, 2009)

Leo said:


> Why are you guys blaming the snowboarder? His written warning from years ago doesn't really prove anything. Could have been a misunderstanding. Maybe the ski patrol guy over-reacted. You can also tell that eyewitness statements aren't consistent.
> 
> Also, would him turning have made any difference? I can carve down a black and still be going at a fast speed. The girl was just that... a girl. She also didn't have a helmet. I'm sorry, it sucks, but there was no chance for her even if the snowboarder was going a little slower from turning.
> 
> ...


Point of technicality: the girl _was_ wearing a helmet. He hit her so hard the helmet flew off her head.

I do blame the boarder. Considering that this was the only roller on the hill, and that all three of them had been moving up until the mom and girl stopped, he should have noticed that there was someone on the run up ahead. It's not as if the mom and girl had set up base camp and were picnicking on the backside of the roller. They were uphill of the roller only moments before the collision. Therefore they were in view of the man approaching further up the hill. 

If you look up ahead and see people on the run ahead of you, and those people disappear over the top of the roller, you should know that they didn't magically transport out of there via a wormhole to another dimension. They are _somewhere_ on the other side of that roller. Moreover, any adult should understand that a little kid is as unpredictable as a puppy. Therefore, it is not the right time to do a 50+mph bombing run.

Whether or not the girl _should_ have been on the run is another argument and doesn't even matter in this case. She was there, whether right or wrong. He either was not paying attention to his surroundings when she was above the roller, OR he did in fact see her up ahead (before she went over the top of the roller) and went full-out anyway. Either way was negligent. 

.


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## rasmasyean (Jan 26, 2008)

Toecutter said:


> Moreover, any adult should understand that a little kid is as unpredictable as a puppy.


Yeah, little kids are dangerous. Sometimes give you a heart attack when you're "in charge" of them. They like stop in the middle of the trail when they are tired. They don't watch where they are going and just run into ppl. Most of the time they just bounce off thier legs but still.


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## Toecutter (Oct 11, 2009)

rasmasyean said:


> Yeah, little kids are dangerous. Sometimes give you a heart attack when you're "in charge" of them. They like stop in the middle of the trail when they are tired. They don't watch where they are going and just run into ppl. Most of the time they just bounce off thier legs but still.


My nightmare is being put in charge of other peoples' kids that have learned to not listen to adult commands. We have some friends whose parenting skills completely suck, and their out-of-control kids are the product of their weak effort and skills. For god's sake, what else has a more profound and lasting impact than the way one raises his/her kids? Read a freaking book already! Responsible people wouldn't think of being totally unprepared for school or work, yet many of those same people just "wing it" when it comes to parenting.


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## Donutz (May 12, 2010)

Toecutter said:


> My nightmare is being put in charge of other peoples' kids that have learned to not listen to adult commands. We have some friends whose parenting skills completely suck, and their out-of-control kids are the product of their weak effort and skills.


I used to do volunteer lunch-hour monitoring at my daughter's elementary school (private school -- had to earn volunteer hours every term). There were kids like that, that would either simply ignore an order or turn, look at you with disdain, then go back to what they were doing. My solution was to literally get right in their face. I'd stand right on whatever it is they were trying to do, put my face 4 inches from theirs, and repeat slowly with what could only loosely be described as a smile. Yeah, it sounds like being an asshole, but when you're dealing with a kid who has learned that adults will go away if you ignore them, you have to make sure they understand you mean business. The only kid I ever had to do that with more than once was actually on the autistic spectrum, so understandable in his case.

My wife is a preschool teacher, and is magic with kids. She can take the nastiest little twerp and turn him into a polite, pleasant little tike in a couple of sessions. The most common comment she gets from parents is "Who is that and where have you put my Timmy?"


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## gjsnowboarder (Sep 1, 2009)

I found out last night that the mother was from my home town and went to school with my little sister. Small world.

I would like to take this moment to mention that choices that are made have consequences and that we all live in a social world with other people.

The boarder should have been more aware of what was below him.

I work at a ski resort and BLACK run doesn't just mean difficult terrain. It also means ADVANCE riders. There are very few young children at the age of five that have the cognitive abilities let alone the phycial development to be on a run with other advance riders. Advance riders tend to travel at higher speeds. When a lower level rider rides terrain that is above there ability level emotionally, physically, or cognitively they are OVER terrrained. 

Taking the above into consideration I also don't think the mother and child should have been on that particular run either.

Too many people these days keep making risky decisions when it comes to riding. I'm not saying not to have fun and challenge yourself or your children. But make those decisions informed. Take in the risk vs reward. Its about progressing to the level of that challenge. You don't learn calculus without first knowing how to add and subtract.

This was a tradegy that could have been avoided by both parties. It is amazing too me that this kind of incident doesn't happen more often. Just watching from the chairlift riding up for a small resort or at a world class destination resort my eye test tells me that as a whole people are getting worse. So please make sure that when you are out with your friends and family that everyonce in awhile you review The Code or make decisions on the hill that keep you safe. Especially if you are teaching a newb how to ride. Cause they won't know.


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## rasmasyean (Jan 26, 2008)

Toecutter said:


> My nightmare is being put in charge of other peoples' kids that have learned to not listen to adult commands. We have some friends whose parenting skills completely suck, and their out-of-control kids are the product of their weak effort and skills. For god's sake, what else has a more profound and lasting impact than the way one raises his/her kids? Read a freaking book already! *Responsible people wouldn't think of being totally unprepared for school or work, yet many of those same people just "wing it" when it comes to parenting.*


Well if you think about it, most ppl aren't prepared for school or work. They just do enough to get by. Disregarding those ppl who are geniuses or whatever, how many ppl work to get A's or work extra hard to know everything about the profession? In fact, most ppl are average joes who rather sit in front of prime time TV (often dual weilding beer and remote) vs. doing homework or keeping up with the field.

It's human nature to "conserver energy" (ehem...laziness). That's why there are leaders and trailers.


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## Leo (Nov 24, 2009)

Toecutter said:


> Point of technicality: the girl _was_ wearing a helmet. He hit her so hard the helmet flew off her head.


Could have sworn it was the boarder who's helmet flew off and neither mother nor child had a helmet on. At any rate, it really wouldn't have mattered. I just brought up the helmet thing to point out that even had she worn one, same results would have happened.

I still don't blame the boarder completely. You say he should have been aware of the party below him. How do we know he even saw them take that run? He could have gone off the lift well after they began their run. It is not anyone's responsibility to keep track of every single person on the lift and make sure you watch them get off to see which run they take. It's not even feasible. 

I stand by my statement that both parties made a sad mistake. Whether or not the girl should have been on there is questionable. Whether or not she had the time to pick her ski up and move over instead of putting it on at the spot is questionable. Whether or not the boarder noticed the mother and daughter after getting off the lift is questionable. Whether or not he was out of control is questionable.

Freak accident. Both parties were in the wrong place at the wrong time.


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## Donutz (May 12, 2010)

Leo said:


> Freak accident. Both parties were in the wrong place at the wrong time.


Yeah, one of the inevitable results of our litigious society is that there's the feeling that any time anything bad happens, it has to be someone's fault, and someone has to pay. Fell off a ladder? The ladder company should have explained gravity better. Cross the street between intersections at night wearing dark clothes? The driver should have psychically known your intentions. Get hit by a meteorite? The govmint shouldn't have cancelled project eyeball.

Sometimes shit just happens. Sometimes everyone is acting reasonably and someone still gets hurt. Sometimes a tree just falls on you. It's not fair, it's not just, it's not deserved. It's life.


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## Toecutter (Oct 11, 2009)

rasmasyean said:


> Well if you think about it, most ppl aren't prepared for school or work. They just do enough to get by. Disregarding those ppl who are geniuses or whatever, how many ppl work to get A's or work extra hard to know everything about the profession?


Most responsible adults prepare for shit. That's how one becomes a professional, not by just skating by.

Edit: "Being responsible" implies being prepared for work and school, wouldn't you say? It doesn't have to mean one's a genius.


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## Toecutter (Oct 11, 2009)

Leo said:


> Could have sworn it was the boarder who's helmet flew off and neither mother nor child had a helmet on. At any rate, it really wouldn't have mattered. I just brought up the helmet thing to point out that even had she worn one, same results would have happened.
> 
> I still don't blame the boarder completely. You say he should have been aware of the party below him. How do we know he even saw them take that run? He could have gone off the lift well after they began their run. It is not anyone's responsibility to keep track of every single person on the lift and make sure you watch them get off to see which run they take. It's not even feasible.
> 
> ...


You watched the video, right? The run is straight as an arrow, with nothing in the middle except for a gentle hump. 

Lawsuit or not, I blame him completely for the death of a little girl.


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## Toecutter (Oct 11, 2009)

Donutz said:


> Yeah, one of the inevitable results of our litigious society is that there's the feeling that any time anything bad happens, it has to be someone's fault, and someone has to pay. Fell off a ladder? The ladder company should have explained gravity better. Cross the street between intersections at night wearing dark clothes? The driver should have psychically known your intentions. Get hit by a meteorite? The govmint shouldn't have cancelled project eyeball.
> 
> Sometimes shit just happens. Sometimes everyone is acting reasonably and someone still gets hurt. Sometimes a tree just falls on you. It's not fair, it's not just, it's not deserved. It's life.


Lawsuit or not, I blame the snowboarder. A tree just falls. A snowboarder does not just accidentally go 50+ mph.


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## rasmasyean (Jan 26, 2008)

Toecutter said:


> Most responsible adults prepare for shit. That's how one becomes a professional, not by just skating by.
> 
> Edit: "Being responsible" implies being prepared for work and school, wouldn't you say? It doesn't have to mean one's a genius.


I guess it depends on what standard you place on "being responsible" and "prepared". IMO, most people aren't really prepared as best as they can be. That's why there's always going to be the few who excel in thier work faster than others. Most A students aren't "geniuses". But there are fewer of them nevertheless than the overwhelming amount of C students. In work and life, you can think of this the same way too. There are a few who would "read parenting books" like suggested, but the brunt of people are "C parents".


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