# Are Gentemstick boards overpriced?



## MrDavey2Shoes (Mar 5, 2018)

Until the big boys start making Japan style snowsurfs (which they are) they’ll command the price. But maybe those days are numbered?


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## AC93 (May 1, 2020)

MrDavey2Shoes said:


> Until the big boys start making Japan style snowsurfs (which they are) they’ll command the price. But maybe those days are numbered?


I think they are numbered. Considering the awesome job that the major snowboard companies are making, for a way lower price, then Gentemstick.


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## kimchijajonshim (Aug 19, 2007)

Overpriced is relative. I'm not too familiar with the Gentemstick line (only ridden a Chaser, wasn't a fan), but I've ridden a 5 or 6 Moss boards which are in a similar price range and owned 3 (currently 1 in the quiver).

They ride unlike anything else I've ever put to snow. Just from a stance perspective, I ride them very Mosses differently. I typically alternate between two stances, +15 / -3 at 23" for more all-mountain focus and +18 / +3 at 22" for more carving focus. On Mosses I'm more like +30 / +12 at 21" (sometimes as narrow as 20"). I've tried similar stances on normal directional twins, and felt way too locked in on the tail. The Mosses are designed for easy tail release and more rear foot driven riding. They're flowier and I can lay out at lower speeds than I can on a traditional Western board.

They definitely have limitations. They're broadly optimized for Japanese conditions... mellower lines and good snow conditions. They don't ride well on ice or super steeps. And the Mosses at least don't take hits well and have relatively thin bases (learned that the hard way at Jackson Hole) . My current Moss (Swallow 162) is a mid-season board when I have faith in deep enough snowpack to avoid sharks on groomers, and after deeeeep storms. I don't take it out early or late season. So for me at least, they're rather limited in the days I'll take them out. But when conditions are right, I experience sensations on that board that I have never been able to recreate on any other snowboard (and I own 5 others and have ridden between 70-80 others on top of that). I only recently starting surfing, but it does remind me a lot of flowing down the line of a wave.

They're also all VERY different in personality. Moss is unusual in that they reshape boards entirely from size to size, so they're effectively just different boards. The Swallow 170 and the Swallow 160 ride very differently. The PQ54 is short-fat-ish, the PQ60 has a pretty normal 258 mm waist. Each size is effectively its own board.

To me, they've opened up a style of riding and reinvigorated my love of snowboarding. I was getting really bored with flatter terrain and groomers, basically going fast and straight on directional twins. These boards gave me a lot of appreciation for slowing down, looking for little gradients in the snow, and slashing banks and stuff. You can ride like this on Western boards-- and I spend about 80% of my time on more Western boards, albeit United Shapes and Koruas with snowsurf influence --but the Mosses are truly unique in their feel and kick started that appreciation for that style of riding.

I only ride my Moss maybe 5 times a year (out of ~25-35), but those are among the best 5 days of the season. I know some people who ride them full time. I have a buddy who owns... probably 8 or 9 Mosses and just alternates between them. I like riding steep shit and charging through variable conditions too much to go that hard on them, but will keep one in the quiver as long as I can justify it.

And I doubt their days are numbered. Yea they're expensive, but snowboarding hard good are just stupid expensive in Japan, something like 30% premium over US equivalent pricing. So maybe they can't hang in the international markets if the big boys go after them, but the premium domestically for them isn't THAT high. And the big boys have been generally copying that style for years-- pretty open secret that the 10-year-old Jones Hovercraft silhouette is very much "inspired" by the Gentemstick Manta Ray. The feel that Jones went for is very different, as is what United Shapes and Korua have done, and the Burton Family Tree and Nitro Quiver lines. All those boards have a much more Western, charge-y friendly mentality to them. Elevated Surfcraft is probably the company that's gone in hardest on a true snow-surf mentality, and they're still small potatoes.


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## garikgarik (Dec 15, 2011)

Good stuff must be expensive in Japanese culture) otherwise people are not going to buy it


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## GregT943 (Apr 1, 2019)

If I ever make it to Hokkaido I think I would have to grab one just to experience it in chest deep japow slashing through epic tree runs.


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## Nivek (Jan 24, 2008)

Gentem, Moss, TJ Brand... aren’t snowboards. They are snowsurfboards. That is what snowsurfboards cost.


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## GregT943 (Apr 1, 2019)

Nivek said:


> Gentem, Moss, TJ Brand... aren’t snowboards. They are snowsurfboards. That is what snowsurfboards cost.


I have no in person experience to any of these boards. How are they different than western brands making that style? For example, how are they different than the Weston Japow, Bataleon Surfer, etc.? Just wondering since I have never ridden any of these boards. Is there a difference in materials or construction methods, or is it just their unique shapes?


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## zc1 (Feb 20, 2017)

GregT943 said:


> I have no in person experience to any of these boards. How are they different than western brands making that style? For example, how are they different than the Weston Japow, Bataleon Surfer, etc.? Just wondering since I have never ridden any of these boards. Is there a difference in materials or construction methods, or is it just their unique shapes?


@kimchijajonshim Said most of it, and @Nivek completed it. Moss boards aren't snowboards. They're snowsurfing boards and ride completely differently from anything else on the market. They really do need to be demo'd if you're unsure, and even then it should ideally be an extended demo (hours or days). 

Like @kimchijajonshim I have several Moss boards (5 currently), and feel that they are worth every penny if you like snowsurfing or 'buy in' to what the brand is, its philosophy, etc. Their camber profiles are all varying amounts and placement of camber + nose rocker. Some have rear-foot-only camber and others have camber that extends to between the bindings or to the front binding. The stance widths are narrow, they're wide relative to their length (narrowest I have is 26.2 WW on a 151 cm board), most boards have significant taper, flex is generally mid-flexing or less, they have massive differences between contact/running length and effective edge length (up to 40+ cm!), and they're extremely light-weight (with durability being lower as a consequence if you're riding them in less than ideal conditions).

I haven't ridden any Gentemstick boards but @PwhyTwhy has both Moss and Gentem boards and might want to chime in. The entire goal of the Moss brand was to replicate surfing, on snow. The founder was a surfer first of all, then became a surfboard designer and producer. He then moved into the snow-surfing space with the aim of creating boards that ride like surfboards and that respond well to being ridden/steered like surfboards.

I can post some camber profile shots later on since that's something that Moss doesn't advertise at all and that isn't particularly clear from reading the specs online. Actually, have a look at the Good Ride "On the table" videos as they have a good number of Moss boards represented there.

Here's a good example of the Jellyfish (video linked to start where he has the board flat on the table, despite the thumbnail):






You can see the 'step back rocker' (back foot camber) that the Jellyfish has.


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## AC93 (May 1, 2020)

I understand the point of them being snowsurfers. But aren't the Jones mind expander and Storm chaser. Just as surfy in pow too?


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## Rip154 (Sep 23, 2017)

Jones boards are ok in pow, but there's always something off about them, they don't turn as well, they always want to push you into the backseat and slide around, which is probably great for beginners. Can call that surfy ofc, but it's not the same feeling.


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## BoardieK (Dec 21, 2015)

zc1 said:


> Their camber profiles are all varying amounts and placement of camber + nose rocker. Some have rear-foot-only camber and others have camber that extends to between the bindings or to the front binding. The stance widths are narrow, they're wide relative to their length (narrowest I have is 26.2 WW on a 151 cm board), most boards have significant taper, flex is generally mid-flexing or less, they have massive differences between contact/running length and effective edge length (up to 40+ cm!), and they're extremely light-weight (with durability being lower as a consequence if you're riding them in less than ideal conditions).


This sounds a lot like my DC HR (House of Powder) which I haven't been able to ride yet. House of Powder apparently being the Japanese equivalent of Baldface Lodge.
It also has very little torsional rigidity.


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## Nolefan2011 (Mar 12, 2011)

MrDavey2Shoes said:


> Until the big boys start making Japan style snowsurfs (which they are) they’ll command the price. But maybe those days are numbered?


Burton Family Tree, Nitro. A couple big boys that have invested in this area. A Cheetah, Bottom Feeder, etc are really close. My Cheetah is a forever board.


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## Nolefan2011 (Mar 12, 2011)

Rip154 said:


> Jones boards are ok in pow, but there's always something off about them, they don't turn as well, they always want to push you into the backseat and slide around, which is probably great for beginners. Can call that surfy ofc, but it's not the same feeling.


I agree with this. Even in comparison to the Family Tree line


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## zc1 (Feb 20, 2017)

AC93 said:


> I understand the point of them being snowsurfers. But aren't the Jones mind expander and Storm chaser. Just as surfy in pow too?


A Moss Rep at an info session that I attended said "You can snowsurf on any board. Our boards just make it easier." A board being good for park riding isn't necessarily a park board. Burton family tree are nothing like Moss. Haven't ridden Jones mind expander or storm chaser but have had a handful handful of other Jones boards that also don't compare.

End of the day, as cliche as it sounds, you really just have to demo one. Moss boards ride differently. You can use boards from other brands to ride powder/surf on snow, but when you get onto (most) Moss boards you'll feel like a newbie all over again. (Most) Moss boards force you to ride differently if you don't want to have a bad day. In steep and deep you can literally ride anything and do just fine. The less steep and less deep the conditions get, the more obvious the differences become, with groomers being the greatest separator.


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## zc1 (Feb 20, 2017)

Here are some more and less extreme examples. Surfers use a lot of upper body rotation and torque generation and let that move down into their boards. Moss boards reward you (or at least don't fight you) when you ride that way. You can ride them with lower body only, like any other board, like you you're taught to ride. When you commit to ignoring the long nose and focusing just on the tail and then get your whole body (especially upper body) involved like you do on a surfboard, they come to life and you can suddenly make the turns that you took for granted on every other board you had ridden prior.

It's like saying a surfskate and skateboard are the same thing. Surfskate trucks make the board really respond well to your body movement. A skateboard will do it, but it won't do it as easily as a surf skate.


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## MrDavey2Shoes (Mar 5, 2018)

I want to buy a Moss but I’m near certain it will be near useless where I ride. Logic be damned.


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## AC93 (May 1, 2020)

Rip154 said:


> Jones boards are ok in pow, but there's always something off about them, they don't turn as well, they always want to push you into the backseat and slide around, which is probably great for beginners. Can call that surfy ofc, but it's not the same feeling.


I disagree with you there. I have the Storm Chaser and the Mind Expander. They feel wonderful in deep pow, so smooth riding them.


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## Nivek (Jan 24, 2008)

There is a fundamental difference on how snowboards developed from Japan to the west. In the west they may have started out with a strong surf influence but also had a large portion of skate and racing and whether anyone wants to admit it, still had some ski influence. When you read or talk to the Moss dudes the story goes that the founder was invited to a ski trip with his girlfriend. He didn't ski. He surfed. So he wanted to surf on the snow. That was the genesis of Moss and maintained as their driving force pretty much forever. In the west, while surfing may have had a strong influence especially in the beginning I would argue the primary influences were skating and racing. You hear interviews with OG freestyle dudes and that's what they talk about, that as soon as they started attaching their feet they wanted to do stuff on their snowboards that they did on their skateboards. Then you have the other side that was all about racing. Speed and hard carves. The beauty of the turn in the west was quickly overshadowed by aggression, speed, power, and getting in the air. That ethos of riding leads to a very different style of board. When you're main focus is the turn, how it feels, how it looks, how you look doing it, and you have minor concerns for flat out bomb speed, leaving the ground, or bashing gates your boards develop very differently. Sidecut, shape, camber, core profiles, core makeups, and how they all mesh develop differently. I forget who I heard the story from, but was told that on a trip to Japan the weight that is put into the turn was driven home by seeing the guys he was riding with all turned around on the chairlift looking back down hill identifying and talking about their tracks in the snow. They care just as much about their turns as we do that switch back lip in the park. And it's not just about hard turn, next hard turn. It's the collective series of turns. Oh and a flex difference noticed by a member of the Keystone Surf Club was just how soft the tails are on the Wing Pin. As they rode those boards more and more it just made sense with they way they are meant to be ridden. It's the reason why the Alter Ego can achieve a somewhat similar feel.

The west _can_ build boards that ride like Japan stuff. But we have a specific set of characteristics in our snowboard designs that "work", characteristics that are different than the Japanese stuff. So we kinda really have to step out of what we "know" in order to achieve a feel like they have. I would argue that there aren't many, if any, that have really achieved the board feel per se, but there are some that you've been able to get the turn feel from: Weston Japow or Backwoods, K2 Overboard and Simple Pleasure/Niseko, Burton Sensei, Ride Alter Ego (maybe the 2022 Mtn Pig), Gnu Zoid, Jones Stormchaser in certain conditions, Flow Darwin, some United Shapes (second hand accounts from the Keystone Surf Club), Nidecker Mosquito, Endeavor Archetype, Rome Ravine, Rome PDMT, DC HR. There may be more, I'm sure there are, and some of those are closer than others. I have experience with all though and if I was feeling like that kind of a turning day I could do so on each of those. Currently my go to is either my Zoid or the Ego. 

So, you can sorta get away with getting the feeling by getting one of those options above, but ultimately the price of these boards is justified because they are the only ones that feel like they do, and they cost what they cost. Until the west can produce a board that genuinely captures that same feel, then the price of entry to a snowsurfboard is gonna be in that $1k range. 


Disclaimer; this is all also very much my interpretation based on the people I've talked to and the boards I've ridden. So I have definitely made some connecting of dots.


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## Rip154 (Sep 23, 2017)

AC93 said:


> I disagree with you there. I have the Storm Chaser and the Mind Expander. They feel wonderful in deep pow, so smooth riding them.


Well yes, I’m not saying they aren’t good in pow, but that goes for alot of boards.


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## Matías (Sep 27, 2015)

Myoko kogen Japan. 3 hours or so from Tokyo. There’s a shop called Yuki Bancho. The owner Tak is friends with the owner of Gentem. And you demo Gentems for $40 a day!! I rented the pool deck and loved it. But that’s not a snow surf shape at all.


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## zc1 (Feb 20, 2017)

BoardieK said:


> This sounds a lot like my DC HR (House of Powder) which I haven't been able to ride yet. House of Powder apparently being the Japanese equivalent of Baldface Lodge.
> It also has very little torsional rigidity.


That's a board I've looked at a lot but never pulled the trigger on. Interested to hear your thoughts when you get the chance to get some turns in on it.


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## zc1 (Feb 20, 2017)

If you're interested in the history an philosophy behind Moss, this is a great watch:


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## GregT943 (Apr 1, 2019)

zc1 said:


> If you're interested in the history an philosophy behind Moss, this is a great watch:


Great video. When I eventually make it to Japan I will be buying a Moss for the trip. Around the halfway point when they are showing a lot of slow motion riding you can really see how soft the noses are. The noses are really flapping around but it doesn't look like that movement resonates to the bindings or the rest of the board much. You can also see how raised up the noses are, despite being longer boards the effective edge seems to be shorter than what you would expect by looking at them. It's too bad my home mountain is in northern Vermont where the conditions for these boards just don't exist.


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## kimchijajonshim (Aug 19, 2007)

Nivek said:


> Gentem, Moss, TJ Brand... aren’t snowboards. They are snowsurfboards. That is what snowsurfboards cost.


To this point, Moss makes snowsurf boards under the "Moss Snowstick" brand but also has a "Moss Snowboard" brand. Example: 










I've seen a handful of these in a shop but they're generally not available outside Japan. I spoke with the North America distributor for Moss he said he could bring them over but too much competition in that space. 

They have some weird shapes like hammerhead boards, but overall silhouettes are much more familiar to Western eyes.


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## aldenowens (Jan 6, 2014)

I purchased a Mantaray 156 earlier this year. I thought the $1000 price tag was hefty but after I got it, I see why. They top sheet was so nice that i almost didn't want to ride the thing. The workmanship was top shelf, so I see why they charge so much, compared to other high end boards.

That said I rode it a couple of days and ended up selling it. Like mentioned earlier in the thread its not meant for aggressive or even semi aggressive riding. More for a cruising, smooth style rider. Which is not my style. I ended up getting a Yes Hybrid instead, which is a better fit. 

That being said I am planning on going to Japan next year and will buy one there for my annual trips.


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## zc1 (Feb 20, 2017)

kimchijajonshim said:


> To this point, Moss makes snowsurf boards under the "Moss Snowstick" brand but also has a "Moss Snowboard" brand
> 
> I've seen a handful of these in a shop but they're generally not available outside Japan. I spoke with the North America distributor for Moss he said he could bring them over but too much competition in that space.


Our local store had a similar situation. They didn't bring them in, either, because for the price he knew that they would be a tough sell here, whereas the snowsurf boards occupy a unique space.


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## ridethecliche (Feb 27, 2019)

I see this video and look at the pumping motion that the riders are doing and that's not really appealing to me. Korua does some of the other stuff well while not making that necessary which is why I think I like them as much as I do. 

@zc1 good to see you posting again.


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## robotfood99 (Mar 19, 2016)

They are expensive, for sure, but that doesn't mean they are overpriced. Considering the workmanship and the smaller scale of production, it's priced about right. Gentem, Moss, and others like them compete in the high price tier even in their own market, and remember that things are generally more expensive there. Add the cost of overseas logistics and the price only gets dearer. 

I wonder of they might be interested in a direct sales approach like Amplid?


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## MrDavey2Shoes (Mar 5, 2018)

I spent some time on the Moss site last night and it’s amazing the amount of mental karate I’ll do to convince myself buying one of these will work out for where I ride. I’d love to have one but it’s almost impossible to get an understanding of how these boards ride as a non surfer due to the vernacular used. Elevated Surfcraft is guilty of this too. It really makes these boards difficult to commit to considering the vastness of models and beyond that each size is effectively a separate model.

I spent some time showing my wife “snowsurf” videos, Yno to prep her for the purchase. She told me I already ride similarly (in style not skill I presume but still a big ego boost). So now I’m sold hook and sinker that I’d enjoy it, but I can’t see an application for these boards on narrow firm VT trails. Yes there’s tons of banks to ride, uneven groomers and of course Peace Parks at Killington but that firm snow gives me pause.


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## unsuspected (Oct 26, 2015)

aldenowens said:


> I purchased a Mantaray 156 earlier this year. I thought the $1000 price tag was hefty but after I got it, I see why. They top sheet was so nice that i almost didn't want to ride the thing. The workmanship was top shelf, so I see why they charge so much, compared to other high end boards.
> 
> That said I rode it a couple of days and ended up selling it. Like mentioned earlier in the thread its not meant for aggressive or even semi aggressive riding. More for a cruising, smooth style rider. Which is not my style. I ended up getting a Yes Hybrid instead, which is a better fit.
> 
> That being said I am planning on going to Japan next year and will buy one there for my annual trips.


No workmanship as most of them are made in China. Only some are made in Japan.


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## kimchijajonshim (Aug 19, 2007)

MrDavey2Shoes said:


> I spent some time on the Moss site last night and it’s amazing the amount of mental karate I’ll do to convince myself buying one of these will work out for where I ride. I’d love to have one but it’s almost impossible to get an understanding of how these boards ride as a non surfer due to the vernacular used. Elevated Surfcraft is guilty of this too. It really makes these boards difficult to commit to considering the vastness of models and beyond that each size is effectively a separate model.
> 
> I spent some time showing my wife “snowsurf” videos, Yno to prep her for the purchase. She told me I already ride similarly (in style not skill I presume but still a big ego boost). So now I’m sold hook and sinker that I’d enjoy it, but I can’t see an application for these boards on narrow firm VT trails. Yes there’s tons of banks to ride, uneven groomers and of course Peace Parks at Killington but that firm snow gives me pause.


Yep. Their marketing copy is horseshit. I'm not sure if stuff is getting lost in translation, but on both Moss and Gentemstick websites, nothing on the website gives you any meaningful idea of how a board will ride (same for Field Earth, TJ Brand, and a few others I've seen). I haven't really known for sure until I got a board to snow. Given the poor standard of Western company marketing copy, not even being able to match that benchmark is pretty sad.

If you deal with firmer snow, I would probably go for the Pintail. I haven't ridden that one, but I've been told it has the most grip in the line and is closest to a normal board.

I can ride firmer snow (caveat: firmer CALIFORNIA snow) on my SW162, but definitely prefer a cambered Western deck when I see a glaze. And that's one of the more aggressive boards in the line.


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## Nolefan2011 (Mar 12, 2011)

Nivek said:


> There is a fundamental difference on how snowboards developed from Japan to the west. In the west they may have started out with a strong surf influence but also had a large portion of skate and racing and whether anyone wants to admit it, still had some ski influence. When you read or talk to the Moss dudes the story goes that the founder was invited to a ski trip with his girlfriend. He didn't ski. He surfed. So he wanted to surf on the snow. That was the genesis of Moss and maintained as their driving force pretty much forever. In the west, while surfing may have had a strong influence especially in the beginning I would argue the primary influences were skating and racing. You hear interviews with OG freestyle dudes and that's what they talk about, that as soon as they started attaching their feet they wanted to do stuff on their snowboards that they did on their skateboards. Then you have the other side that was all about racing. Speed and hard carves. The beauty of the turn in the west was quickly overshadowed by aggression, speed, power, and getting in the air. That ethos of riding leads to a very different style of board. When you're main focus is the turn, how it feels, how it looks, how you look doing it, and you have minor concerns for flat out bomb speed, leaving the ground, or bashing gates your boards develop very differently. Sidecut, shape, camber, core profiles, core makeups, and how they all mesh develop differently. I forget who I heard the story from, but was told that on a trip to Japan the weight that is put into the turn was driven home by seeing the guys he was riding with all turned around on the chairlift looking back down hill identifying and talking about their tracks in the snow. They care just as much about their turns as we do that switch back lip in the park. And it's not just about hard turn, next hard turn. It's the collective series of turns. Oh and a flex difference noticed by a member of the Keystone Surf Club was just how soft the tails are on the Wing Pin. As they rode those boards more and more it just made sense with they way they are meant to be ridden. It's the reason why the Alter Ego can achieve a somewhat similar feel.
> 
> The west _can_ build boards that ride like Japan stuff. But we have a specific set of characteristics in our snowboard designs that "work", characteristics that are different than the Japanese stuff. So we kinda really have to step out of what we "know" in order to achieve a feel like they have. I would argue that there aren't many, if any, that have really achieved the board feel per se, but there are some that you've been able to get the turn feel from: Weston Japow or Backwoods, K2 Overboard and Simple Pleasure/Niseko, Burton Sensei, Ride Alter Ego (maybe the 2022 Mtn Pig), Gnu Zoid, Jones Stormchaser in certain conditions, Flow Darwin, some United Shapes (second hand accounts from the Keystone Surf Club), Nidecker Mosquito, Endeavor Archetype, Rome Ravine, Rome PDMT, DC HR. There may be more, I'm sure there are, and some of those are closer than others. I have experience with all though and if I was feeling like that kind of a turning day I could do so on each of those. Currently my go to is either my Zoid or the Ego.
> 
> ...


Great post.

I wonder if the difference in build is truly the difference in topography.

We have mountains like Squaw, Jackson Hole, Telluride, Kirkwood, Crested, Snowbird, Revelstoke, Kicking Horse, etc in N America. East coast is ice coast.

Japan is a completely different animal.

I think maybe people ride to their primary terrain. Said another way, it’s probably counter-intuitive to build boards like Gentem Stick for Jackson Hole.


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## AC93 (May 1, 2020)

zc1 said:


> If you're interested in the history an philosophy behind Moss, this is a great watch:


Very interesting, makes me wanna try one of the moss snowsurfers!


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## kimchijajonshim (Aug 19, 2007)

Nolefan2011 said:


> Great post.
> 
> I wonder if the difference in build is truly the difference in topography.
> 
> ...


I said in my earlier post, but designers will naturally optimize to whatever's around. Most of the top Japanese resorts have moderate grade and good snow. Snow surfers make a hell of a lot sense in those conditions. Conversely I've tried riding a Moss PQ154 at Jackson Hole... it was unreal my first drop off the tram in untouched pow, but once I hit tracks, I was not having a good time in terrain that steep.

The only resort I can think of in North America (that I've ridden) where I'd ride a snow surfer close to full time is probably Mount Bachelor, because it's relatively flat with a ton of natural lips and transitions. Makes a lot of sense that the Gerry Lopez Big Wave Challenge is based there. You can even see in that video that the riders on more Japanese-esque boards have a lot more flow, while the ones on more western boards have a bit more an attack mentality. That's not absolute, you can definitely charge on a snowsurf or flow on an all-mountain deck, but they certainly encourage different approaches to the mountain.


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## Rip154 (Sep 23, 2017)

If you grab a Pintail or Wingpin from Moss, hard conditions is not an issue.


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## Nolefan2011 (Mar 12, 2011)

Rip154 said:


> If you grab a Pintail or Wingpin from Moss, hard conditions is not an issue.


I saw that. But doesn’t that make it a western board at that point?


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## Rip154 (Sep 23, 2017)

Nolefan2011 said:


> I saw that. But doesn’t that make it a western board at that point?


That stuff is mostly in your head, the shapes are more allround, but it's what most are using for "snowsurfing". They don't fold in the nose to help you turn and there's no abs brake in the tail, so if that's the definition of a western board, I'd say no. For Gentemstick you could look at the Floater and Zephyr.


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## robotfood99 (Mar 19, 2016)

kimchijajonshim said:


> Yep. Their marketing copy is horseshit. I'm not sure if stuff is getting lost in translation, but on both Moss and Gentemstick websites, nothing on the website gives you any meaningful idea of how a board will ride (same for Field Earth, TJ Brand, and a few others I've seen). I haven't really known for sure until I got a board to snow. Given the poor standard of Western company marketing copy, not even being able to match that benchmark is pretty sad.


Goes both ways. Lib Tech's (and many others) dribbles machine-translated to completely broken Japanese/Chinese/Korean are par for the course in those markets. I think Moss and Gentem deliberately skewed their copies to sound less.. um... zen. At least it's natural human language.


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## zc1 (Feb 20, 2017)

Nolefan2011 said:


> I saw that. But doesn’t that make it a western board at that point?


Ignore the specs.


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## zc1 (Feb 20, 2017)

MrDavey2Shoes said:


> ...I can’t see an application for these boards on narrow firm VT trails. Yes there’s tons of banks to ride, uneven groomers and of course Peace Parks at Killington but that firm snow gives me pause.


FWIW those definitely aren't the conditions I'd intentionally ride a snowsurf board in.


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## Nolefan2011 (Mar 12, 2011)

zc1 said:


> Ignore the specs.


I guess I meant, are you only getting half the experience with the pin tail that you would get if you went and bought a jelly fish?


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## Rip154 (Sep 23, 2017)

Jelly fish is just that, it's a really playful board with center rocker, almost like banana/flying v and so on. It's carvy big brother with similar specs is the fluffy. I wouldn't say half the experience, but the boards have almost an opposite profile of the pintail, which is more camrock or backseat camber, so it just depends what you like more. If you just move with the terrain and use edges to turn instead of braking/sliding, you can get away with alot of different boards. Might have to control speed more than pointing it and speedchecking, but thats not how I see the snowsurf style anyways.


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## Nolefan2011 (Mar 12, 2011)

I’m a big mountain guy these days, and just don’t know if these boards will ever be me. Maybe at 55 or so (currently 41)


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## kimchijajonshim (Aug 19, 2007)

robotfood99 said:


> Goes both ways. Lib Tech's (and many others) dribbles machine-translated to completely broken Japanese/Chinese/Korean are par for the course in those markets. I think Moss and Gentem deliberately skewed their copies to sound less.. um... zen. At least it's natural human language.


That's a separate issue, though. Moss and Gentem copy is grammatically correct English that says nothing of substance. I'd rather have broken English that actually tells me something. The TJ Brand English copy is a masterclass in Engrlish, but it's close enough that I can follow along and figure out something about how a board is supposed to ride.

I actually talked to the guy who distributes TJ Brand in the US, Stephen Kimura (owner of United Shapes), and copy is lifted straight from the Japanese site. He could rewrite it to be grammatically correct, but that's extra work and frankly he (and I) think the Engrish is rather charming. Similar to this sign I saw in Niseko.


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## robotfood99 (Mar 19, 2016)

kimchijajonshim said:


> That's a separate issue, though. Moss and Gentem copy is grammatically correct English that says nothing of substance. I'd rather have broken English that actually tells me something.


Gentem has been a purveyor of esoteric descriptions for their rides for a while. Don't know about Moss.

The Far East get grammatically incorrect machine translated marketing spiels from the west that says nothing about how the board rides. Things like "The Orca is no gutless fish." This got translated into something like The Orca has no stomach organs or something to that effect. Poorly translated and carelessly thrown to the bewildered public.

I also think their quirky sense of the English language has a character all it's own. Like this pension in Niseko, The Independence of Republic of Potato.


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## MrDavey2Shoes (Mar 5, 2018)

@robotfood99 I wasn’t saying I don’t understand what they’re saying. I meant what they’re saying means very little to me as I don’t surf. I get that they’re snowsurfs but I need translation into snowboard friendly verbiage.

It’s like describing a color to the sightless. Maybe that’s too far.


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## kimchijajonshim (Aug 19, 2007)

Nolefan2011 said:


> I’m a big mountain guy these days, and just don’t know if these boards will ever be me. Maybe at 55 or so (currently 41)


In good snow, I feel pretty good on my SW 162 at mountains as gnarly as Squaw or Jackson. But in firm conditions, not a chance.


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## zc1 (Feb 20, 2017)

Rip154 said:


> Jelly fish is just that, it's a really playful board with center rocker, almost like banana/flying v and so on. It's carvy big brother with similar specs is the fluffy.


The Fluffy was created as a combination of the Jellyfish, C3 and U4 (Naoya's favourite boards in the line). All were meant to be playful and have a very "back foot-controlled" feel. The tight radius on the tail end of the sidecut was meant to make it easier to turn back uphill like making a bottom turn on a wave. The Wing Swallow should also be in this group.

For the pintails I can only speak about what I'm told as I haven't ridden one. They're supposed to be good all-rounders with radial sidecuts, narrower waists and meant to be easy to flick edge-to-edge and drive in powder.


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## robotfood99 (Mar 19, 2016)

MrDavey2Shoes said:


> @robotfood99 I wasn’t saying I don’t understand what they’re saying. I meant what they’re saying means very little to me as I don’t surf. I get that they’re snowsurfs but I need translation into snowboard friendly verbiage.
> 
> It’s like describing a color to the sightless. Maybe that’s too far.


My point was that at least they write in readable English. I was addressing @kimchijajonshim's remark about their marketing copy being horseshit.


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## MrDavey2Shoes (Mar 5, 2018)

@robotfood99 ah I see...it kind of is in my opinion...


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## robotfood99 (Mar 19, 2016)

MrDavey2Shoes said:


> @robotfood99 ah I see...it kind of is in my opinion...


Horseshit written in readable English. Totally the norm these days.


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## SandPounder (Apr 8, 2021)

GregT943 said:


> I have no in person experience to any of these boards. How are they different than western brands making that style? For example, how are they different than the Weston Japow, Bataleon Surfer, etc.? Just wondering since I have never ridden any of these boards. Is there a difference in materials or construction methods, or is it just their unique shapes?


Gentemstick are made at the GP87 factory in China. It is a very nice, high quality factory that puts out brands like Weston, Telos, Cardiff, Sims etc. All of the Gentemstick shapes are proprietary to Gentemstick, but there is nothing crazy in them that would command such a high price. You are basically paying for the label and the shape. There is nothing "magical" with their construction methods compared to other brands.


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## Hatto (Dec 17, 2012)

I see it as they are boards made for japans snow conditions, effortless in the deep powder, long slow noses make them climb up ontop, and they turn/carve so well on the soft groomers. When it is ice they behave very differently.
Powder, these boards rock with very little effort required, roosters off the tail in anything over 300mm pow is mindblowing, smooth, quiet and easy. Standing still with Powder up to ya tits, all you have to do is get a little bit on momentum and you pop out up ontop and carve away.
I havent ridden a moss any other place than Japan and don't think i ever will, but a snowsurf board is the only thing i use in Japan.
$1k cost - well over 400 days so far so pretty cheap in my eyes


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## Hatto (Dec 17, 2012)

Another thing i think is how soft/light and dry the Powder is in japan and these shapes are designed for it. Yes other boards/shapes can be used but IMO use right tool for the right job.


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## zc1 (Feb 20, 2017)

Hatto said:


> Another thing i think is how soft/light and dry the Powder is in japan and these shapes are designed for it. Yes other boards/shapes can be used but IMO use right tool for the right job.


Along those lines, Naoya Wada did an info session for a group of us and said that the "Fluffy" was named for the fluffy, soft groomers of Niseko. He said that his goal in designing the board was for it to be his ideal board for his style of riding in Niseko.


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## Hatto (Dec 17, 2012)

Kijima has his boards dialled to Japans conditions. His builds are so good to ride.


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## treehugger (Mar 21, 2021)

I struggle with the fact that other high end boards coming out of the same factory are 1/2 the price. I imagine a smaller market leads to needing to make more profit from each sale and higher cost for smaller production runs. So they may not be overpriced considering but that doesn't quite translate (for me) to being worth it.

However, these boards (Gentlem and Moss) come with some extra prestige (not important to me but still) and I could definitely be ok with paying extra $ to a small innovative brand with a unique vision. The question is how much extra can I justify and what are the other options at more traditional prices. The shapes, dimensions, sidecut, and profiles look great. From what I'm reading fairly soft flex in quality construction. Is there anything special in the flex pattern compared to typical directional: soft in nose getting stiffer in tail? Maybe the magic is in the entirety of it but really want it broken down and understand why these are worth the price. I plan to demo one next season, which I guess, is the only way to know if it's worth it to me.


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## kimchijajonshim (Aug 19, 2007)

All's I'll say is that I have never ridden a Western board that rides like any of my Mosses, including boards out of the GP87 factory.

I know they had some very specific design innovations that are only now gaining traction in the Western scene-- 3D base convex AND concave shaping being the big one --but I have no idea if Moss decks have any specific construction or production techniques to justify that premium. But even if we're just talking about "normal" production methods with specialized shape and design, they have some special magic blend I haven't experienced elsewhere. Like I really enjoy my Westons, United Shapes, and Koruas, but I've ridden other boards that are comparable. The Mosses are just weird little rear-foot driven unicorns. Until Western companies can reliably replicate that feeling (not even that specific feeling, just "wow this is fucking different" feeling), I'm good with paying the premium. (I should caveat that I'm fortunate enough that dropping $1000 on a snowboard versus $500 has essentially no meaningful impact on my financial health, so the "worth" of the premium is definitely relative).

Offhand the only major brand I can think of that's really gone in on that "this is different" vibe is probably Capita / Spring Break... and a frankly some of their more experimental shapes are stupid and gimmicky. Burton I suppose did go in on 3D base shaping this year / with last season's late-season release, and I'm curious to experiment a bit with those if I get a chance.


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## SandPounder (Apr 8, 2021)

treehugger said:


> I struggle with the fact that other high end boards coming out of the same factory are 1/2 the price. I imagine a smaller market leads to needing to make more profit from each sale and higher cost for smaller production runs. So they may not be overpriced considering but that doesn't quite translate (for me) to being worth it.
> 
> However, these boards (Gentlem and Moss) come with some extra prestige (not important to me but still) and I could definitely be ok with paying extra $ to a small innovative brand with a unique vision. The question is how much extra can I justify and what are the other options at more traditional prices. The shapes, dimensions, sidecut, and profiles look great. From what I'm reading fairly soft flex in quality construction. Is there anything special in the flex pattern compared to typical directional: soft in nose getting stiffer in tail? Maybe the magic is in the entirety of it but really want it broken down and understand why these are worth the price. I plan to demo one next season, which I guess, is the only way to know if it's worth it to me.


Gentem and Moss are very specialized brands that cater to a certain type of rider, but there is nothing magical inside the boards that commands a higher price. They do have unique shapes and high quality materials, but they aren't drastically different than any other brand on the market. Gentem and Moss are essentially luxury brands in the snowboard space. Think of Gentemstick as a Gucci or Louis Vuitton hand bag. There is nothing inherently special about LV handbag in terms of raw materials, design, and construction compared to other fashion brands. But consumers pay a premium for prestige of owning a LV bag.


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## Rip154 (Sep 23, 2017)

Well prices in Japan for snowboard equipment is generally higher, and these are high end in that market, so the prices reflect that and a smaller production. Kijima explained that well earlier. What sells these boards for me is that I can't find the same thing from other brands, they have a few shapes that are pretty much my dream boards, and the description of what they do is reliable. They are good at testing before launch and refine the shapes through many years. Everything from sidecut to flex, stance and looks is great. Of course there are different boards, and you have to know what you want and what suits you, but I haven't been mislead on a product like with other brands. I think this is mostly because the large scale production of some brands demand too many compromises to sell out the stock.

There no prestige in it really, as people look at you funny if you don't have a Jones Flagship or Rome park board around here.


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## treehugger (Mar 21, 2021)

Surfing has always influenced my approach to snowboarding (as well as skating), so these boards really interest me. It seems like these guys get that approach better than anyone. I can't imagine them thinking about filling some market category when it comes to how they want to ride. I think I might be missing out not trying their boards. 

Been riding short fat surfy boards for many years and really curious how they will compare.


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## kimchijajonshim (Aug 19, 2007)

SandPounder said:


> Gentem and Moss are very specialized brands that cater to a certain type of rider, but there is nothing magical inside the boards that commands a higher price. They do have unique shapes and high quality materials, but they aren't drastically different than any other brand on the market. Gentem and Moss are essentially luxury brands in the snowboard space. Think of Gentemstick as a Gucci or Louis Vuitton hand bag. There is nothing inherently special about LV handbag in terms of raw materials, design, and construction compared to other fashion brands. But consumers pay a premium for prestige of owning a LV bag.


That's a busted analogy. Luxury goods are a stupid marketing racket that thrives on brand awareness and perceived scarcity.

No one outside of a small segment of hardcore snowboard nerds gives a fuck about Japanese snowsurfers... they're not well known enough to have a luxury reputation. Not even Moss or Gentemstick, much less the really esoteric stuff like Field Earth or TJ Brand or Offshore Shapes.

And I might buy it if they were just popping out twin popsicle sticks, but their at least Mosses are very functionally different in design regardless of being built in the same factory with the same technique as commodity boards. I've ridden six (maybe seven) different Moss models, and all have a very unique personality I can't compare to anything else I've ever ridden (I haven't ridden THAT many decks, but I've owned something like 35 lifetime and ridden something like 80 lifetime over the past 16 years). The Swallowtail 62 is kinda sorta normal, but the Swallow 170 was pretty wild and I've never anything remotely close to the Performance Quad 54, Wingswallow 148, or especially the Long.

Now whether or not "different" is good or bad is a different question (I personally have no interest in ever riding a Long again). But they're not some silly marketing Jedi mind trick on the masses.


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## treehugger (Mar 21, 2021)

I decided I want to get The Chaser next season. From no way to got to have it in just a few posts.

Someone mentioned bases are thin and are easy to damage (Not ideal for powder board if true). Anyone know if they use a quality sintered base? Not a lot of info on construction details or materials on these.


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## zc1 (Feb 20, 2017)

Just wanted to show how different the Moss back-seat camber profile (step back rocker) is from other brands. This is the Jellyfish.


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## MrDavey2Shoes (Mar 5, 2018)

@zc1 that photo told me more about a Moss than anything I’ve ever read in their site! I can imagine the inputs you need to make in order to ride something like that!


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## zc1 (Feb 20, 2017)

MrDavey2Shoes said:


> @zc1 that photo told me more about a Moss than anything I’ve ever read in their site! I can imagine the inputs you need to make in order to ride something like that!


A picture's worth a thousand words! The Jellyfish is definitely one of the more extreme examples.


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## snow & pow adventures (Oct 28, 2020)

I finally stopped being a pussy and pulled a trigger on that baby.
That board cover/case is hot as hell!

[ACH]


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## MrDavey2Shoes (Mar 5, 2018)

let’s get this thread back up and running!
Id love to keep talking about these boards - let’s move past the cost




Rip154 said:


> If you grab a Pintail or Wingpin from Moss, hard conditions is not an issue.


have you rode both of these?


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## snow & pow adventures (Oct 28, 2020)

MrDavey2Shoes said:


> let’s get this thread back up and running!
> Id love to keep talking about these boards - let’s move past the cost


Well. I love mine. Like, really really love it 
I rode Dart only once this season, just to make sure  Don't get me wrong, I love Dart too, but Zephyr is just another league.
It has 0 flavs so far, and all Dart issues are gone.

I didn't pay full price, I bought it very very cheap but right now, knowing what I know, I wonder, If I would be willing to pay a full price, and have this one board vs buy 3-4 others.
And I would probably buy Gentem. But I know I'm biased now 

An awesome carver, I finally learned how to sit on the snow this season.


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## MrDavey2Shoes (Mar 5, 2018)

@snow & pow adventures those turns speak to me. I also finally learned to get my ass on snow this season.
What is love about your video is the amount of upper body movement in the turns. That’s what I do and I don’t feel western boards necessarily reward it, regardless of how good it feels.
Getting close to just handing my wallet over to Moss of Gentem.

can you tell me what you love about your zephyr and what the specs are like?


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## Rip154 (Sep 23, 2017)

MrDavey2Shoes said:


> let’s get this thread back up and running!
> Id love to keep talking about these boards - let’s move past the cost
> 
> 
> ...


58pt and 54wp


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## treehugger (Mar 21, 2021)

love my gentemstick chaser (156). ulimate powder float. 346 w on nose is as wide as anything i've seen. it's a beautiful shape with lots of taper. by far the best looking board i've had. amazingly this board is also one of my favorite carving boards. not really sure how this works so well (and obviously it would be better for carving if it was narrower like the HP version). compared to other fat pow boards i have it is not a strain to get hold on edge. feels very different than my usual carver but really stable and inspiring. handles bumpy pow better than my other shorter wide boards. i like all my boards but this is the one that's special and gets me stoked just looking at it.


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## MrDavey2Shoes (Mar 5, 2018)

@Rip154 
Can you tell me about the differences in how they ride? Looks like the WP is quite a bit wider than the PT when you line them up in the same size. 

@treehugger what’s your weight and boot size?


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## Rip154 (Sep 23, 2017)

MrDavey2Shoes said:


> @Rip154
> Can you tell me about the differences in how they ride? Looks like the WP is quite a bit wider than the PT when you line them up in the same size.
> 
> @treehugger what’s your weight and boot size?


both boards have a sturdier front than most of the moss boards, so they can take more allround riding and conditions. 58pt has a softer tail, so gotta be careful to press it too much in hard snow, but i can still stay in control on icy patches and it carves well on open turns when its not too steep. perfect for varied terrain and tree riding. 54wp is better at carving, more hold to the tail, and you can ride lower, tighter and with a narrower stance. its also set up like that, so check if you can get on board with it. 64 pt looks beefier than the 58pt. i picked the pt because i hardly ride groomers, and wanted the narrower width and a bit more option on stance. it comes right behind the fish (old shape) at carving for me, and alot less tiring to ride. cant compare the wp too much outside groomers.


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## Nolefan2011 (Mar 12, 2011)

My Mantaray is special. I remember riding it for the first time and thinking “this is worth every dollar”. It has an ability to flex in all the right spots, but rips. And the base is faster than any board I’ve ridden.

And yes, it kills powder


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## treehugger (Mar 21, 2021)

MrDavey2Shoes said:


> @treehugger what’s your weight and boot size?


180lb size10 (28 mondo). volume is perfect for me. would like to also have the HP version. or zephyr could be interesting.


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## Hatto (Dec 17, 2012)

Moss - I have a 162sw great in deep pow and carves big tuns
I have a U5 156, slick and smooth great in medium deep, turns on a dime
I have PQ 54, Most versatile and fun, play all over the slope - short board surfing
I have elevated RTH5.1, sitting waiting for 2 years, not seen snow yet, hopefully Jan.
I have a Party Platter 150, so much fun, feels like a skateboard, goes great but too short for my 6ft in anything over knee. (go over the bars) but doable, but quick turns /slashing and all day riding is so not tiring.
They are all great, nothing bad with any, (not my skill level anyway), i would recommend any or all.
As i get older, i am looking for more fun/less effort/ ride longer/ not bombing down/want to enjoy the journey/ not smashing the laps and these all are where it's at for me.


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