# NS Proto HD 157, Should I return?



## snowklinger (Aug 30, 2011)

Yea you want the wide. 

You can send me that one.


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## vknyvz (Jan 23, 2013)

lol sure 549 please


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## BigmountainVMD (Oct 9, 2011)

I'm not convinced that necessitates a wide. It's close, but depending on the OPs riding style, not completely necessary.


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## vknyvz (Jan 23, 2013)

BigmountainVMD said:


> I'm not convinced that necessitates a wide. It's close, but depending on the OPs riding style, not completely necessary.


man sure?, pretty much i just checked my receipt again i can by s'day, oh god it's a lot of money you know, i mean i rode it last week and I was convinced that it was fine, didn't have any dragging, but how about during pow days carving....I always ride with a duck stance, to do switching...
i did 44.1 mph without trying on this btw (according to alpine replay)


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## BigmountainVMD (Oct 9, 2011)

You are riding on the east coast. I ride here and wouldn't worry about that much overhang. I have a 157 Proto and don't have any issues at all with size 11s. Unless you plan on doing some alpine carving turns on that thing, I wouldn't worry about it too much. I actually sold my wide Proto CTX to get the regular width CT... and am immensely happy I did that. Edge to edge transition is SOOOOO much better.


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## cmo (Jan 13, 2010)

tilt the board up on its edge until the toes hit the carpet. It probably takes alot more of an angle then you think. My setup has some over hang (looks like it maybe less than yours) but for mine to come close to dragging on edge I'm probably eating snow in a second anyway.

I have a 154 proto and 11s fwiw.


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## vknyvz (Jan 23, 2013)

BigmountainVMD said:


> You are riding on the east coast. I ride here and wouldn't worry about that much overhang. I have a 157 Proto and don't have any issues at all with size 11s. Unless you plan on doing some alpine carving turns on that thing, I wouldn't worry about it too much. I actually sold my wide Proto CTX to get the regular width CT... and am immensely happy I did that. Edge to edge transition is SOOOOO much better.





cmo said:


> tilt the board up on its edge until the toes hit the carpet. It probably takes alot more of an angle then you think. My setup has some over hang (looks like it maybe less than yours) but for mine to come close to dragging on edge I'm probably eating snow in a second anyway.
> 
> I have a 154 proto and 11s fwiw.



yea i guess not like we receive lot of powder anywho, i will be in Colorado this december though but can't justify just cause riding there for a week not gonna get a board for it. ok guess i will stick with this


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## trapper (Jan 15, 2013)

FWIW, I have about that much overhang on my 166w and no real problems to speak of. But I don't carve like those crazy Russians do either. Also, we don't get much powder-type snow here in Michigan.


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## NZRide (Oct 2, 2013)

Remember the drag starts with your worst foot, looking at your left foot their (assuming your goofy) as angle looks less than the right, the left foot toe overhang is pretty large. Also doesn't need to be pow, but also soft spring snow has the same effect, which I'm not sure how long you get on the east coast? but before I knew enough and moved to wide boards about 12 years ago, I had terrible toe grab in spring slush, which made for a crappy time riding.

Certainly the comments above are correct, in that you won't feel any problems without some fairly serious lean on groomers, but I just wanted to point out the above scenarios where foot overhang does come into play, it does get annoying.
Personally now I have been on wide boards for over 12 years, I don't find any disadvantage at all,if anything I prefer the stability, theres never been an occasion where I needed faster edge to edge.
I guess what I'm saying is, I think you should consider the negatives of both scenarios, basing the decision on your own previous experience. ie. If its narrower than you're used to, with more toe overhang, with the amount your showing, I think there will be days where it will come into play vs HDX where you will not have an issue. But if you have never had a wide board and you like making smaller snake turns, then you will find it a little mellower in turn transition.


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## Zedekias (Oct 31, 2013)

I've ridden my proto hdx 160 twice now. I wear a size 12. And I'm still a relatively new snowboarder, so that may be my problem with transitioning. I do feel like it takes more effort than it should though. 

Can someone just convince me that I need to get better and a non-wide board wouldn't work that well for my boots? 

I've snowboarded probably 10 times over the last ten years. But I just moved to colorado so I will be going much more often now.


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## Mystery2many (Aug 14, 2013)

You can ride it like that. But if it was me I'd get the HDX. When I go to Breck I ride some wild terrian and some steep shit. The steeper the run the deeper your carve will be and the drag will push the boards edge up and you will lose traction. 

It really is up to you and what you ride.


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## Extremo (Nov 6, 2008)

Get the HDX for sure. You'll def drag with that.


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## jdang307 (Feb 6, 2011)

cmo said:


> *tilt the board up on its edge until the toes hit the carpet. *It probably takes alot more of an angle then you think. My setup has some over hang (looks like it maybe less than yours) but for mine to come close to dragging on edge I'm probably eating snow in a second anyway.
> 
> I have a 154 proto and 11s fwiw.


But when you're carving the board flexes in the middle, causing the boots to be closer to the ground then just tilting the board up on carpet.


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## NZRide (Oct 2, 2013)

Zedekias said:


> I've ridden my proto hdx 160 twice now. I wear a size 12. And I'm still a relatively new snowboarder, so that may be my problem with transitioning. I do feel like it takes more effort than it should though.
> 
> Can someone just convince me that I need to get better and a non-wide board wouldn't work that well for my boots?
> 
> I've snowboarded probably 10 times over the last ten years. But I just moved to colorado so I will be going much more often now.


Keep riding dude ! 10 times in 10 years is nothing. You just need to get out and ride, and sure it will come together for you.
Saying that, the 160 is 265mm waist which is truely wide, and 160 is a decent amount of board to steer for a new rider. What do you weigh? and what terrain are you riding? Potentially if you able to get away with a shorter board, which will also have narrow w.w, both of these would make the board more manoeuvrable for you, and easier to learn on.
Probably not worth just dropping to the 158 but if you were <175lbs, and hitting moderate speed groomers and checking out the park, the 155 HDX maybe a good option to help your turns.


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## Zedekias (Oct 31, 2013)

NZRide said:


> Keep riding dude ! 10 times in 10 years is nothing. You just need to get out and ride, and sure it will come together for you.
> Saying that, the 160 is 265mm waist which is truely wide, and 160 is a decent amount of board to steer for a new rider. What do you weigh? and what terrain are you riding? Potentially if you able to get away with a shorter board, which will also have narrow w.w, both of these would make the board more manoeuvrable for you, and easier to learn on.
> Probably not worth just dropping to the 158 but if you were <175lbs, and hitting moderate speed groomers and checking out the park, the 155 HDX maybe a good option to help your turns.


Thanks for the reply. 

I'm 6'2" and usually around 190-200lbs. And I really just ride groomers for now. But I'd like to eventually do a little backcountry. 

I was going to go with a 158 originally but it just seemed so small to me. I know the chin to nose thing isn't really standard anymore. But even the 160 is below my chin a decent amount.


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## NZRide (Oct 2, 2013)

Zedekias said:


> Thanks for the reply.
> 
> I'm 6'2" and usually around 190-200lbs. And I really just ride groomers for now. But I'd like to eventually do a little backcountry.
> 
> I was going to go with a 158 originally but it just seemed so small to me. I know the chin to nose thing isn't really standard anymore. But even the 160 is below my chin a decent amount.


160 is pretty well sized for you then. Potentially fall in the range of 158 but not worth selling up for 2cm change and borderline call anyway. I think now that you have it, keep it and get up the mountain as much as possible. You need to put in more time on snow to find out what you like anyway, maybe in a season or two (depending how much you get up) and review boards again then. 
Just my opinion of course, but you have a good board, get into it dude!


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## Zedekias (Oct 31, 2013)

NZRide said:


> 160 is pretty well sized for you then. Potentially fall in the range of 158 but not worth selling up for 2cm change and borderline call anyway. I think now that you have it, keep it and get up the mountain as much as possible. You need to put in more time on snow to find out what you like anyway, maybe in a season or two (depending how much you get up) and review boards again then.
> Just my opinion of course, but you have a good board, get into it dude!


Awesome. That's what I wanted to hear. I've been up twice so far, and I'm going to try and make it up 3-4 times a month from here on out. 

I hate being so slow!


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## dreampow (Sep 26, 2011)

Its very hard to tell from those photos, also a key factor here is your boot.

Now there are very low profile boots on the market that I am pretty sure would allow you to squeeze into a regular proto.

What year and model are those 11.5 salomons?

If they are not low profile you could solve the issue with a new pair of boots.

As others have said if you can ride the regular it will be much better edge to edge which is big IMO.

I run size 11s with a reduced footprint (Burton rulers) and they fit fine no drag at all on my 157 proto HD. 

I am pretty sure the 11.5 of any boot with reduced footprint will work for anything except alpine style carving which lets be honest we are not doing on this deck.


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## mhphoto (Apr 20, 2010)

If your rocking size 11.5 boots you should be on a wide board even with a duck stance. Check out the Proto HD X you'll be stoked!


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## hktrdr (Apr 3, 2012)

dreampow said:


> Its very hard to tell from those photos, also a key factor here is your boot.
> 
> Now there are very low profile boots on the market that I am pretty sure would allow you to squeeze into a regular proto.
> 
> ...


I agree with that.

Also, it is difficult to tell from the pictures whether the boots are actually centered on the board or too close to the toe edge. Would be good to see a photo from below the board (looking directly at the base).


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## hktrdr (Apr 3, 2012)

mhphoto said:


> If your rocking size 11.5 boots you should be on a wide board even with a duck stance. Check out the Proto HD X you'll be stoked!


Sorry, but that is wrong. 11.5 might make a wide board the better choice in some circumstances, but for the majority of people that is still a regular (especially at the board length of the OP).


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## C4mtb (Nov 21, 2013)

i am getting a proto hd or hdx don't know yet. with a 10.5 boot on large genesis binding will there be any toe drag when carving. 

thanks


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## Mystery2many (Aug 14, 2013)

C4mtb said:


> i am getting a proto hd or hdx don't know yet. with a 10.5 boot on large genesis binding will there be any toe drag when carving.
> 
> thanks


Proto HD all day long!


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## C4mtb (Nov 21, 2013)

Thanks, I though I would have toe drag. What if the carbonium top sheet like? It does not look like it would shed snow very well with it having a Matt finish and being bumpy?


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## hktrdr (Apr 3, 2012)

C4mtb said:


> Thanks, I though I would have toe drag. What if the carbonium top sheet like? It does not look like it would shed snow very well with it having a Matt finish and being bumpy?


It pretty much sheds snow just as well as a 'regular' topsheet. It really makes little or no difference other than cosmesctics and the slightly added traction when skating.


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## trapper (Jan 15, 2013)

hktrdr said:


> It pretty much sheds snow just as well as a 'regular' topsheet. It really makes little or no difference other than cosmesctics and the slightly added traction when skating.


Sheds snow at least as well as regular top sheet. The added traction made enough of a difference for me that I stopped using a stomp pad. However, and this may cause a disagreement here, I don't think it is any more chip resistant than my old Burton. Just my experience anyways. It does look cool though.

Edit: to clarify, I'm talking about the top sheet on my Heritage, not the Proto. But I doubt that matters.


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## BigmountainVMD (Oct 9, 2011)

Extremo said:


> Get the HDX for sure. You'll def drag with that.





mhphoto said:


> If your rocking size 11.5 boots you should be on a wide board even with a duck stance. Check out the Proto HD X you'll be stoked!


No, no and no. There is no "definitely" in this situation. 

As to the remarks on drag in powder, an extra cm under foot is not going to make that much of a difference in drag in the deep stuff. Maybe a bit more float, but digging a deep carve in deep snow, your gonna have "toe drag" no matter what, unless you are riding a canoe down the mountain.


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## Mystery2many (Aug 14, 2013)

C4mtb said:


> Thanks, I though I would have toe drag. What if the carbonium top sheet like? It does not look like it would shed snow very well with it having a Matt finish and being bumpy?


It holds less snow on the top sheet compared to the smooth top sheet on my SL. Why? I have no clue, but it's pretty sweet. And it has great boot grip! :thumbsup:


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## jdang307 (Feb 6, 2011)

Mystery2many said:


> It holds less snow on the top sheet compared to the smooth top sheet on my SL. Why? I have no clue, but it's pretty sweet. And it has great boot grip! :thumbsup:


Probably same reason some knives have scallops on it, or fish turners have less material than regular turners. The continuous surface area of a normal topsheet have more surface for the snow to grab onto.


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## Extremo (Nov 6, 2008)

BigmountainVMD said:


> No, no and no. There is no "definitely" in this situation.
> 
> As to the remarks on drag in powder, an extra cm under foot is not going to make that much of a difference in drag in the deep stuff. Maybe a bit more float, but digging a deep carve in deep snow, your gonna have "toe drag" no matter what, unless you are riding a canoe down the mountain.


Yes, I have a size 9.5 and drag in some situations on the reg width HD. In soft slushy snow, deep granular, and fluff you will 100% drag with this set up, and possibly even on normal hardpack if the pitch of the hill is steep. Can you prevent all dragging? No. But should you reduce it all that you can. Absolutely. Get the HDX or you'll regret it.


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## BigmountainVMD (Oct 9, 2011)

Extremo said:


> Yes,* I have a size 9.5 and drag in some situations on the reg width HD*. In soft slushy snow, deep granular, and fluff you will 100% drag with this set up, and possibly even on normal hardpack if the pitch of the hill is steep. Can you prevent all dragging? No. But should you reduce it all that you can. Absolutely. Get the HDX or you'll regret it.


Reminds me of the whole "Princess and the Pea" story. If you are worried about drag with a 9.5 boot on a regular width board... I don't even know what to say to that. 

You will experience drag with any board and any boot unless you are completely on top of the snow and not sinking at all. What is 0.5 cm on the toe edge gonna do for drag in powder? Let's be real here... not that much. Drag while carving is what is gonna buck you off your line while carving steep lines on hardback, and _that_ is what anyone worried about drag should be concerned about. Not some fluff in the deep stuff...

Guess we will have to agree to disagree on this one. Reducing drag is only as important as the losses brought on by such drag, which is not that much in powder compared to hard carving. 

In my opinion, the loss of quick/easy edge to edge transitions is more of a factor than some drag on the occasional pow day. Especially for an east coast rider. Which is why I, someone who is fairly critical of how a snowboard rides, was so fed up with the lack of easy edge transition on the CTX that I switched to the CT and loved it exponentially more.

Furthermore, if the OP has ridden the board and hasn't experienced any issues, I'm not sure why he would change in the first place. The ONLY thing that he would notice if he doesn't feel his toes hitting snow now currently, is that edge transitions will be more of a pain in the ass with the HDX.


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## Mystery2many (Aug 14, 2013)

jdang307 said:


> Probably same reason some knives have scallops on it, or fish turners have less material than regular turners. The continuous surface area of a normal topsheet have more surface for the snow to grab onto.


Makes sense. :thumbsup:


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## Extremo (Nov 6, 2008)

BigmountainVMD said:


> Reminds me of the whole "Princess and the Pea" story. If you are worried about drag with a 9.5 boot on a regular width board... I don't even know what to say to that.
> 
> You will experience drag with any board and any boot unless you are completely on top of the snow and not sinking at all. What is 0.5 cm on the toe edge gonna do for drag in powder? Let's be real here... not that much. Drag while carving is what is gonna buck you off your line while carving steep lines on hardback, and _that_ is what anyone worried about drag should be concerned about. Not some fluff in the deep stuff...
> 
> ...


I never said I was worried about a 9.5 boot dragging on a reg width board. I said I experience it under some circumstances. If you can decrease your overhang then you should. 

If your logic made any sense why aren't normal width men's boards 23cm instead of closer to 25? It's ridiculous. 

A larger foot has more leverage over the edges. So he'll have the same edge to edge transition on the HDX as I do with a smaller foot on the HD. Not to mention the Proto already has extremely fast edge to edge transition thanks to it's camber profile. The HDX is the right choice. It's not even debatable.


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## C4mtb (Nov 21, 2013)

Extremo said:


> Yes, I have a size 9.5 and drag in some situations on the reg width HD. In soft slushy snow, deep granular, and fluff you will 100% drag with this set up, and possibly even on normal hardpack if the pitch of the hill is steep. Can you prevent all dragging? No. But should you reduce it all that you can. Absolutely. Get the HDX or you'll regret it.


wait... so your have toe drag with size 9.5? what the hell is going to happen to me with a 10.5 or someone with an 11 + ??


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## Extremo (Nov 6, 2008)

C4mtb said:


> wait... so your have toe drag with size 9.5? what the hell is going to happen to me with a 10.5 or someone with an 11 + ??


I've only ever experience it when the snow is either really soft and slushy, or, if you're familiar with east coast ground granular, where they grind up the ice with the consistency of beach sand, it sometimes happens when the granular gets deep. Which isn't really a big deal with my boots and a reg width board, but when you're bombing a double black and you feel your boot drag in some slush or deep crud and your edge jumps it can really fuck you up. 

And then obviously when there is a fresh snow dump, you'll always have some drag. But that's mostly because the hills around here aren't steep enough to keep any float and you sink a lot. But my point is you want to limit this as much as possible, and you do this by getting the appropriate width board for your foot size. 

Also, my size 9.5 Deeluxe are actually more comparable to a 10-10.5 in most other brands.


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## hktrdr (Apr 3, 2012)

Extremo said:


> Yes, I have a size 9.5 and drag in some situations on the reg width HD. In soft slushy snow, deep granular, and fluff you will 100% drag with this set up, and possibly even on normal hardpack if the pitch of the hill is steep. Can you prevent all dragging? No. But should you reduce it all that you can. Absolutely. Get the HDX or you'll regret it.


Sorry, but I am with BigMountain on this one: The above is nonsense.

Can you produce toe drag with a 9.5 boot on a regular board in certain conditions? Yeah, you probably can - but in those conditions toe drag is the least of your worries.




Extremo said:


> I never said I was worried about a 9.5 boot dragging on a reg width board. I said I experience it under some circumstances. *If you can decrease your overhang then you should*.


Sorry, but no. You should decrease overhang _only if all other things were equal_. Making the board wider relative to the foot is not keeping things equal, but rather comes at a cost: it reduces edge-to-edge speed, response, and the ability to pressure the edges considerably.

So there is a trade-off - reduced toe drag vs. less response. At certain foot size/board with ratios that trade-off is in favor of making the board wider - say, at size 12+ and regular board width, because toe drag is a sufficient enough concern and response is not reduced much (because as you correctly pointed out, a larger foot allows you to manipulate a wider board without much response). In other words, the benefit (reduced drag) of extra width outweighs the cost (reduced response).
At other foot sizes (pretty much anything below 11.5 in size with a regular board - but only as a rule of thumb/general guideline) it is the other way around.



Extremo said:


> If your logic made any sense why aren't normal width men's boards 23cm instead of closer to 25? It's ridiculous.


No, it is your argument that is ridiculous. With any regular foot size (>6, say) and such a narrow board, the trade-off explained above would always point to making the board wider. 
The reason that most boards are ~25cm is that the vast majority of riders do not need a wider board, because going wider would be detrimental on balance.


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## dreampow (Sep 26, 2011)

Extremo said:


> I've only ever experience it when the snow is either really soft and slushy, or, if you're familiar with east coast ground granular, where they grind up the ice with the consistency of beach sand, it sometimes happens when the granular gets deep. Which isn't really a big deal with my boots and a reg width board, but when you're bombing a double black and you feel your boot drag in some slush or deep crud and your edge jumps it can really fuck you up.
> 
> And then obviously when there is a fresh snow dump, you'll always have some drag. But that's mostly because the hills around here aren't steep enough to keep any float and you sink a lot. But my point is you want to limit this as much as possible, and you do this by getting the appropriate width board for your foot size.
> 
> Also, my size 9.5 Deeluxe are actually more comparable to a 10-10.5 in most other brands.


That what I am saying about boots being extremely important here.

My boots are like a 10 even though they are 11s and the regular proto works just fine, no drag. 

Of course my toes hang over the edge but to me that is not drag. Drag is like you say in a deep carve your toe or heels scrape the snow surface in such a way to throw you off completely and you eat shit or come close.

11.5 is definitely pushing it but most riders I see never get low enough for it to be a problem. If he gets super low footprint 11.5s I think it will work in most conditions. 

The HDX will work too but everyone who has ridden a wide says its considerably slower edge to edge which is not ideal.

That said its the safe option in this case and unless the boots have shrink tech the wide is a must.


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## Extremo (Nov 6, 2008)

hktrdr said:


> Sorry, but I am with BigMountain on this one: The above is nonsense.
> 
> Can you produce toe drag with a 9.5 boot on a regular board in certain conditions? Yeah, you probably can - but in those conditions toe drag is the least of your worries.
> 
> ...


So as a reference, TJ Schneider designed the Capita Mid-life with a waist of 25.5cm around his 10.5 boot. Halldor Helgason rides a 25.1 with a size 9. Travis Rice rides a 25.8 with a size 11. Andreas Wiig 25.3 with a size 10. Aaron Biittner 25.1 size 10. See the trend? So the experts are all doing it wrong? Ya, listen to this guy. 

An 11 is 10mm larger than a 10, so if someone with an 11.5 should be riding a reg width board, in this case the Proto at 25.3, why then, if being on a wider board is so detrimental to one's riding, aren't these guys riding and designing their boards 10-20mm narrower to accommodate their specific boot size?


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## C4mtb (Nov 21, 2013)

there is a .3 inch difference between the hd ad the hdx, how can that honestly make that much of a difference?


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## vknyvz (Jan 23, 2013)

Extremo said:


> Get the HDX for sure. You'll def drag with that.





dreampow said:


> Its very hard to tell from those photos, also a key factor here is your boot.
> 
> Now there are very low profile boots on the market that I am pretty sure would allow you to squeeze into a regular proto.
> 
> ...


it is salvage 2011, exactly this one (Salomon Savage (2011) Snowboard Boots: Ski Boot & Snowboard Boot Price Comparison - Prices at idealo.co.uk)



BigmountainVMD said:


> No, no and no. There is no "definitely" in this situation.
> 
> As to the remarks on drag in powder, an extra cm under foot is not going to make that much of a difference in drag in the deep stuff. Maybe a bit more float, but digging a deep carve in deep snow, your gonna have "toe drag" no matter what, unless you are riding a canoe down the mountain.


checking the specs again yes it's 0.9cm wider exactly 9mm



Extremo said:


> Yes, I have a size 9.5 and drag in some situations on the reg width HD. In soft slushy snow, deep granular, and fluff you will 100% drag with this set up, and possibly even on normal hardpack if the pitch of the hill is steep. Can you prevent all dragging? No. But should you reduce it all that you can. Absolutely. Get the HDX or you'll regret it.





hktrdr said:


> Sorry, but I am with BigMountain on this one: The above is nonsense.
> 
> Can you produce toe drag with a 9.5 boot on a regular board in certain conditions? Yeah, you probably can - but in those conditions toe drag is the least of your worries.
> 
> ...


hd - responsive but drag(...) (especially in pow, (which is rarely in this part of the country))
wide - less responsive very minimial drag

honestly the reason i needed a new board was `responsiveness`, i was riding a 163 cobra x and needed something more `responsive` and riding once last week with my new hd i experienced but what I am reading from some of you guys' posts


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## hktrdr (Apr 3, 2012)

Extremo said:


> So as a reference, TJ Schneider designed the Capita Mid-life with a waist of 25.5cm around his 10.5 boot. Halldor Helgason rides a 25.1 with a size 9. Travis Rice rides a 25.8 with a size 11. Andreas Wiig 25.3 with a size 10. Aaron Biittner 25.1 size 10. See the trend? So the experts are all doing it wrong? Ya, listen to this guy.
> 
> An 11 is 10mm larger than a 10, so if someone with an 11.5 should be riding a reg width board, in this case the Proto at 25.3, why then, if it's so detrimental to one's riding, aren't these guys riding and designing their boards 10-20mm narrower to accommodate their specific boot size?


Just a few points:

Those are not necessarily their actual board widths. They ride a variety of decks, many of them custom builds.
In any case, these guys ride completely differently to the vast majority of recreational riders. Because of their skills and technique, they can properly pressure the edge even on a board that is relatively wide for their foot.
How often do you see recreational riders do pow landings of big booters?
An 11 is only 10mm larger at 0 degree angle. Less at usual stance angles and then only 4-5mm or less on each side.
There is also float in powder to consider.

It is perfectly fine for somebody to be on a wide at 11.5. Hell, if they want they could be on a wide with a size 6.
Point is: Few if anybody *needs* a wide below that size.

Before upsizing to the 158, I rode the 155 Cobra with a 251 WW last year in massive Vans boots. Excessive toe drag certainly was not an issue.


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## Extremo (Nov 6, 2008)

C4mtb said:


> there is a .3 inch difference between the hd ad the hdx, how can that honestly make that much of a difference?


If it didn't, companies wouldn't make a wider model.


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## hktrdr (Apr 3, 2012)

C4mtb said:


> there is a .3 inch difference between the hd ad the hdx, how can that honestly make that much of a difference?


That is a considerable difference in terms of WW and will have a pretty profound impact on the way the board rides - see vknyvz's last post as an example.



Extremo said:


> If it didn't, companies wouldn't make a wider model.


+1, exactly.


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## hktrdr (Apr 3, 2012)

vknyvz said:


> hd - responsive but drag(...) (especially in pow, (which is rarely in this part of the country))


Actually, as extremo explained it is more soft snow, grain, and maybe slush where toe drag is the concern, not big powder. In deep powder there is snow all over the board, pushing against the entire boot and leg - a little bit of extra toe drag does not even register in this.


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## vknyvz (Jan 23, 2013)

dont know what happened there it cut my post


so from what I've been reading...

wide (x) - less responsive very minimal drag 
hd - responsive but drag(...) (especially in pow, (which is rarely in this part of the country))

but it depends i think on the rider, proto claims that it has a very smooth edge to edge transition...

honestly the reason i needed a new board was coz `responsiveness`, i was riding a 163 cobra x and needed something more `responsive` also at that length (Especially with the cobra's stiffness) freeriding was out the window. 
I couldn't make my mind up riding once last week at mount snow with my new hd because they didn't have any blacks open only greens and some blues, and one park. 
I didn't experience any draggin but cause i wasn't on any steep terrain so didn't do much carving, no alpine carver here but i still like to do it when i can espeically if its groomed. On another point, yes not much pow days here but seems like i am going to have problems with that during turns, guess even wide board will cause a drag a bit but minimizing would be good.

I have till tomorrow to exchange or not, fudge this is so hard, (only it's because it's $550  )


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## vknyvz (Jan 23, 2013)

Extremo said:


> If it didn't, companies wouldn't make a wider model.


this is wrong info proto hdx vs proto hd, hdx is 9mm wider 0.9cm not 0.3cm if this was the case, i wouldn't think that much


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## Mystery2many (Aug 14, 2013)

Can you return it, get the hdx ride it and if you don't like it return it and get the HD back? That would be ideal so you can see which you like better.


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## hktrdr (Apr 3, 2012)

vknyvz said:


> this is wrong info proto hdx vs proto hd, hdx is 9mm wider 0.9cm not 0.3cm if this was the case, i wouldn't think that much


He is talking about 0.3 *inches* not cm, which is roughly correct.


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## vknyvz (Jan 23, 2013)

Mystery2many said:


> Can you return it, get the hdx ride it and if you don't like it return it and get the HD back? That would be ideal so you can see which you like better.


nah they didn't have it they said ride this if you don't like it return we'll order the hdx for ya, so they didn't have it there


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## BigmountainVMD (Oct 9, 2011)

Extremo said:


> So as a reference, TJ Schneider designed the Capita Mid-life with a waist of 25.5cm around his 10.5 boot. Halldor Helgason rides a 25.1 with a size 9. Travis Rice rides a 25.8 with a size 11. Andreas Wiig 25.3 with a size 10. Aaron Biittner 25.1 size 10. See the trend? So the experts are all doing it wrong? Ya, listen to this guy.


First of all, A. Bilttner is fucking up your point by riding a 25.1 waist with a size 10 boot. Also, we can't really compare other boards here without knowing tip/tail widths and sidecut radius to really know whats going on at the bindings. 



C4mtb said:


> there is a .3 inch difference between the hd ad the hdx, how can that honestly make that much of a difference?


It's a big difference. I don't want to get in to more physics formulas like the "highback rotation" thread... but leverage is the key word and it makes a large impact on how easy the board turns and how quickly you can get a carve initiated.

On another note, Happy Thanksgiving!


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## vknyvz (Jan 23, 2013)

need to make a correction, it is 11mm in difference 264mm vs 253mm
a tiny little more than 1cm


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## Extremo (Nov 6, 2008)

vknyvz said:


> this is wrong info proto hdx vs proto hd, hdx is 9mm wider 0.9cm not 0.3cm if this was the case, i wouldn't think that much


He said .3 inches, not .3 cm, but you're right it is actually bigger. 



BigmountainVMD said:


> First of all, A. Bilttner is fucking up your point by riding a 25.1 waist with a size 10 boot. Also, we can't really compare other boards here without knowing tip/tail widths and sidecut radius to really know whats going on at the bindings.


No actually, it isn't fucking it up. If a guy wearing a 11.5 boot should be riding a 25.3 width board (because riding anything wider would be so detrimental to edge to edge transfer) then why wouldn't Biittner be riding a board 10mm narrower to accommodate a boot that's 13mm shorter? Get it? 

And bullshit we can't really know without knowing sidecut radius. How do you know the sidecut radius on this dudes board is super mellow and only increased the board width 2mm at the insert pack? While all these dudes sidecuts could be super deep. Yet you're still giving this guy advice without knowing any of that.


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## Nito (Oct 16, 2007)

BigmountainVMD said:


> First of all, A. Bilttner is fucking up your point by riding a 25.1 waist with a size 10 boot. Also, we can't really compare other boards here without knowing tip/tail widths and sidecut radius to really know whats going on at the bindings.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Big is right about board width. I can feel the difference in a .2 mm waist width increase (NS SL 155 vs. 158).

Note: if you want to ride a wider width, you want a more responsive binding. This is in agreement with Big's comment also because the stiffer binding will give you more leverage.


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## timmytard (Mar 19, 2009)

Forget all that fuckin' bullshit, 5 pages of fuckin' whining.

Toe or heel drag is way worse than the performance of a wide deck.

It's pretty fuckin' simple. Here's how it works.

You can compensate for any little loss of `responsiveness` lost with a wider board. Really it ain't that much.

You are absolutely fucked, when you crank a big carve & when you are @ the deepest part of the carve, your toes dig in. 

You eat shit, a nice big helping. 

Those are your options.


TT


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## Nito (Oct 16, 2007)

Extremo said:


> He said .3 inches, not .3 cm, but you're right it is actually bigger.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The sole of the boot is curved up from the ball of the foot forward. So a boot 10mm longer is not going to create a foot print 10mm longer. To test, damp (very lightly) the bottom of a boot with water and touch it to a piece of paper. Do the same with a boot 2 sizes smaller and compare the imprint size vs. the actual boot length.

Also, a rider does not need to stand on their toes while riding. They only need to press the edge; the more edge pressure, the more traction.

Finally, the board also adds a little ground clearance to keep the boot from dragging.


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## timmytard (Mar 19, 2009)

Nito said:


> Big is right about board width. I can feel the difference in a .2 mm waist width increase (NS SL 155 vs. 158).
> 
> Note: if you want to ride a wider width, you want a more responsive binding. This is in agreement with Big's comment also because the stiffer binding will give you more leverage.


I'm sure that's a typo & you meant 2mm instead of .2mm:dunno:

Either way,:WTF: I call bullshit.

Ya:dizzy: It must be the 2mm width difference your feeling

& not the 30mm length increase


TT


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## hktrdr (Apr 3, 2012)

timmytard said:


> Forget all that fuckin' bullshit, 5 pages of fuckin' whining.
> 
> Toe or heel drag is way worse than the performance of a wide deck.
> 
> ...


Oh my, the 'tard is at it again. Are you going to suggest that he needs stiff boots as well?


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## Nito (Oct 16, 2007)

timmytard said:


> I'm sure that's a typo & you meant 2mm instead of .2mm:dunno:
> 
> Either way,:WTF: I call bullshit.
> 
> ...


Nope, here is NS site and the SL specs. I tested the SL in 2008 and became a fan of their product line. But I will admit, the 158 will be stiffer and easier to bend than the 155 due to the increased width; so it could be a combination of width and stiffness. But when I flexed them they felt very similar. Note, both boards were broken in demos.

SL | Never Summer Industries - Snowboards, Longboards, Clothing and Accessories


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## timmytard (Mar 19, 2009)

hktrdr said:


> Oh my, the 'tard is at it again. Are you going to suggest that he needs stiff boots as well?


Only if he _wants _to grow up to be big & strong.:thumbsup:

Obviously not everyone _wants _to be:cheeky4:

How many years you been doing this?

How many boards have you owned?


TT


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## BigmountainVMD (Oct 9, 2011)

timmytard said:


> Forget all that fuckin' bullshit, 5 pages of fuckin' whining.
> 
> Toe or heel drag is way worse than the performance of a wide deck.
> 
> ...


Agreed that actual toe drag is a pain and can be dangerous, I just don't think the OP will be dragging enough during big carves to warrant the wide size.


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## C4mtb (Nov 21, 2013)

i can settle this. 

i just went to the store and picked up a proto HD we got every thing sized up. i am on the regular HD with size 9.5 boots and med bindings. he said if i was a 10.5 or higher go worth large bindings and consider the HDX wider version. he mentioned that once you have a 10.5 or higher the loss of responsiveness will be fairly minimal and it would be a safer bet to get the HDX (so you do not catch a toe or heal). this all came from a Never summer rep. 

on another note the board is dank!!!!

i am putting the blue and green burton geneses binding on it and some black and blue Ride double boa lasso boots. what do you guys think should i go with those boots and bindings?


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## vknyvz (Jan 23, 2013)

ladies and gents, friends and ... lol

allow me to update this thread. After riding it 1.5 days on this board, I have actually decided to keep the 157 regular but I made a huge mistake! 

I screw one of my binding to the 2 wrong holes. During that half day on the mountain, at some point I was getting of from the lift and felt my right foot was loose, I was like wtf, I stopped and unscrew the binding I was like shit/duck/darn..., brand new board, I messed up two holes on it. Probably after all day riding, it somehow forced the screws and chipped some of the wood around it. I was really bummed by it, was really really upset. After this I left the board in my car and keep riding with my other board.

long story short, I went to store and asked If I could get the wide version, and they said it's fine!

I currently have the hdx 158.

my first impressions that, I really really wish it is 26.0 or 25.9 

25.3 (regular) vs 26.4 (wide) I mean it could've been 25.9 or 26.0. this is probably ultra wide


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## BigmountainVMD (Oct 9, 2011)

So did you have toe drag on the narrow model or not?


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## vknyvz (Jan 23, 2013)

BigmountainVMD said:


> So did you have toe drag on the narrow model or not?


man honestly i can't say i did much, that's why i was going to keep it, but then that thing happened, just to get a brand new board again I returned, guess it was fine.


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