# Burton channel binding issues



## Mano (Mar 2, 2019)

I have a burton custom with the channel, and been experiencing issues with controlling the board. I suspect the channel binding system is not holding the binding well. 

Looking into it, I saw that the binding have some degree of freedom such that they bent at the heel side under pressure. In particular front side turns when you push on your toes. 
If you try to push the binding they lift a few mm from the board. 

On other boards with 3 or 4 screws this does not happen. 

I suspect that this slack due to the burton channel instead of the screws reduces my control of the board dramatically , especially at high speed or on the Tbar. 

Have you expirianced such a freedom on your burton board? Or feel the degradation in controlling the board ? 

Thanks
Adi


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## Rip154 (Sep 23, 2017)

Won't matter to your turns directly, but it can lead to snow building up under the heel. Is it Union bindings?


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## poopresearch (Jan 2, 2016)

I've never had any problems with any of my channel boards (about a half dozen Burtons and Endeavors). I've run Burton EST bindings on them all. What binding are you running?


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## Phedder (Sep 13, 2014)

poopresearch said:


> I've never had any problems with any of my channel boards (about a half dozen Burtons and Endeavors). I've run Burton EST bindings on them all. What binding are you running?


Ditto this. I love the channel and EST bindings.


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## mriviecc (Feb 18, 2015)

Same here. EST bindings have never given me any issue. The channel system is great. It's too bad the system is just locked into Burton boards and not adopted by other makers - most likely a result of Burton not willing to play nice with other board makers...


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## Kenai (Dec 15, 2013)

My only issue with the EST bindings is that the piece that fits into the channel to tell you your angle is a terrible fit. I can probably move the binding 10° without the indicator moving.


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## mriviecc (Feb 18, 2015)

You make a good point. Ive never experienced too much play when rotating the binding, but I do agree that they should make this insert out of a bit stronger material.


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## Rip154 (Sep 23, 2017)

Can just push it down, and it works.


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## poopresearch (Jan 2, 2016)

mriviecc said:


> Same here. EST bindings have never given me any issue. The channel system is great. It's too bad the system is just locked into Burton boards and not adopted by other makers - most likely a result of Burton not willing to play nice with other board makers...


I'm not sure. Endeavor and Signal are both using the channel system.


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## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

mriviecc said:


> Same here. EST bindings have never given me any issue. The channel system is great. It's too bad the system is just locked into Burton boards and not adopted by other makers - most likely a result of Burton not willing to play nice with other board makers...


1. Other makers use it.

2. There is no patent on the channel. In other words... anyone is free to use it.


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## mriviecc (Feb 18, 2015)

I didn't know other makers were using the channel system. Thanks for the heads up. If that's the case, I wonder why other more familiar board manufacturers - Ride, Rome, GNU, LibTech, etc.. - haven't moved to the channel system?


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## Rip154 (Sep 23, 2017)

Cost, developing the process with the factory, warranties, and so on. Not all bindings work great with it, even if they fit. Dumb and dumber will still have issues using it. Burton would sell a ton of bindings.


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## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

mriviecc said:


> I didn't know other makers were using the channel system. Thanks for the heads up. If that's the case, I wonder why other more familiar board manufacturers - Ride, Rome, GNU, LibTech, etc.. - haven't moved to the channel system?


Who knows. Too many possible reasons, as Rip mentioned, and many more. Not really worth speculating on....


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## Ben.S (Feb 16, 2019)

Kenai said:


> My only issue with the EST bindings is that the piece that fits into the channel to tell you your angle is a terrible fit. I can probably move the binding 10° without the indicator moving.





mriviecc said:


> You make a good point. Ive never experienced too much play when rotating the binding, but I do agree that they should make this insert out of a bit stronger material.





Rip154 said:


> Can just push it down, and it works.


I don't find that the fit is terrible so much as the angles don't seem to be the same on initial fit as my non-EST bindings (including Re:Flex). For example, I can mount Genesis Re:Flex and Genesis EST bindings on the same board and my binding angles always feel different with EST so I end up adjusting them to get the same feel, if not the same actual numbers on the dial. That's just part and parcel with the continuous rather than discrete adjustability. The nice part as far as further adjustment is concerned is being able to do it on the fly since the screws are exposed rather than underfoot.


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## Ben.S (Feb 16, 2019)

mriviecc said:


> I didn't know other makers were using the channel system. Thanks for the heads up. If that's the case, I wonder why other more familiar board manufacturers - Ride, Rome, GNU, LibTech, etc.. - haven't moved to the channel system?





Rip154 said:


> Cost, developing the process with the factory, warranties, and so on. Not all bindings work great with it, even if they fit. Dumb and dumber will still have issues using it. Burton would sell a ton of bindings.


My speculation and nothing more: No one system is clearly "the best" for everyone just as no one board is clearly the best. I don't think Burton has convinced the industry that the Channel and channel-compatible bindings are the way to go. 

From a numbers perspective, it makes sense to produce bindings for the majority of boards sold. Burton sells a lot of boards, but not anywhere near the number of non-Burton boards sold worldwide (all other brands combined, excluding Endeavor and the handful of Signal boards that have the Channel). If you get your bindings onto 5% of the non-Burton boards out there that's a bigger chunk than if you can convince 5% of Burton board-buyers to use your bindings rather than Burton bindings. 

Just this morning I had a chairlift chat with a man who said he wants to get new bindings for his Burton board but is only interested in Burton bindings (and nothing else) because they were made to work together. Even in this thread people are swearing by the combination of EST bindings and Burton boards, and in the bindings forum the newest thread is by someone wanting to swap his current Burton bindings for another set of Burton bindings on his Burton board. It's a tough sell for other brands.


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## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

Ben.S said:


> My speculation and nothing more: No one system is clearly "the best" for everyone just as no one board is clearly the best. I don't think Burton has convinced the industry that the Channel and channel-compatible bindings are the way to go.
> 
> From a numbers perspective, it makes sense to produce bindings for the majority of boards sold. Burton sells a lot of boards, but not anywhere near the number of non-Burton boards sold worldwide (all other brands combined, excluding Endeavor and the handful of Signal boards that have the Channel). If you get your bindings onto 5% of the non-Burton boards out there that's a bigger chunk than if you can convince 5% of Burton board-buyers to use your bindings rather than Burton bindings.
> 
> Just this morning I had a chairlift chat with a man who said he wants to get new bindings for his Burton board but is only interested in Burton bindings (and nothing else) because they were made to work together. Even in this thread people are swearing by the combination of EST bindings and Burton boards, and in the bindings forum the newest thread is by someone wanting to swap his current Burton bindings for another set of Burton bindings on his Burton board. It's a tough sell for other brands.


Nah. Burton doesn't need to convince anyone, and the industry doesn't need to find consensus on what's best or not. It's probably better for everyone that things are varied and different....


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## Ben.S (Feb 16, 2019)

@F1EA I agree. I was just responding to the previous posts regarding why other manufacturers haven't moved to the channel and more EST-style channel-compatible bindings.


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## JBM (Jul 1, 2017)

Ben.S said:


> @F1EA I agree. I was just responding to the previous posts regarding why other manufacturers haven't moved to the channel and more EST-style channel-compatible bindings.


Endeavor snowboard(that uses channel) + Burton Cartel EST bindings is one sweet low cost setup that rocks IMHO


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## smellysell (Oct 29, 2018)

JBM said:


> Endeavor snowboard(that uses channel) + Burton Cartel EST bindings is one sweet low cost setup that rocks IMHO


Hey, I have one if those!  

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## JBM (Jul 1, 2017)

smellysell said:


> Hey, I have one if those!
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


Yes, smart move >>> Can't wait till the mountains open up down under looking for another set of Burton EST bindings ... give me two Endeavor Board&binding setups ... 


...Been boarding since the late 90's and started using the burton channel when it first came out and not once have I had an issue ...(and I'm hard on gear and my myself with many injuries over the years)



. I've always rated Burton Gear esp the bindings... I personal think Endeavor have great boards for the $$$ and not in a hurry to pay 30-40% more for a burton board that would only be a fraction better if that.


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## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

JBM said:


> Yes, smart move >>> Can't wait till the mountains open up down under looking for another set of Burton EST bindings ... give me two Endeavor Board&binding setups ...
> 
> 
> ...Been boarding since the late 90's and started using the burton channel when it first came out and not once have I had an issue ...(and I'm hard on gear and my myself with many injuries over the years)
> ...


Yeah. On top of that, Endeavor has a lot of 'freestyle' oriented boards... and for that EST bindings with the hinge are simply amazing.


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## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

Mano said:


> I have a burton custom with the channel, and been experiencing issues with controlling the board. I suspect the channel binding system is not holding the binding well.
> 
> Looking into it, I saw that the binding have some degree of freedom such that they bent at the heel side under pressure. In particular front side turns when you push on your toes.
> If you try to push the binding they lift a few mm from the board.
> ...


No.




7654321


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## Ben.S (Feb 16, 2019)

JBM said:


> Endeavor snowboard(that uses channel) + Burton Cartel EST bindings is one sweet low cost setup that rocks IMHO


Currently have 6 Endeavors, 5 with Now bindings (6th one doesn't have anything mounted). Also have 5 Burton boards, all with Now bindings. Had EST and Re:Flex bindings on them all at some point. Switched to Now. Personal preference. I get all my gear 40-50% off, Burton and Endeavor included. I ride Now bindings on the Channel because I just like them. Found out about them through this forum or another one, I think, and I love the way they ride.

Now actually has decent EST discs as well (compared to other EST solutions that I've seen). Add to that the fact that they have the Kingpin Tool-less kit so you can use the same bindings on multiple boards (for $40-$50 per board) without having to re-mount discs and it's a winning system as well, IMO. If you want to you can run one set of bindings for as many boards as you have, and swapping between boards takes literally 5 mins because the discs stay mounted to the boards (at whatever stance width and angles you set them up with initially) -- all that swaps over is the binding chassis. If you want a high value, high performance binding system to go along with the high value Endeavor boards, I personally don't think it gets any better (or smarter) than that.

I now have a shelf full of Burton EST and Re:Flex bindings waiting for good homes to go to.

As you, I've been boarding since the early 90s, not that that means anything.

As with anything, OP, YMMV. I've tried a bunch of different gear, in various combinations to determine what I like and I try to give suggestions based on what I've seen/experienced. In this case I'm not saying forget Burton bindings. I'm just relaying my experience with some others. I haven't found any bindings that work for me the way that Nows do. They're not perfect (for example ladders could be stronger and the Pilot toe strap is not great, IMO), but I like the overall experience with them. 

The fact that you can realistically run one set for all of your boards, to me, is a breath of fresh air in a world where all other binding manufacturers (traditional, not step-on) want to sell you one complete binding set for each board or else have you spend a bit more time swapping things over, adjusting overhang, stance width, etc. if you insist on just having one set.


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## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

Haha kind of the same w me.

I have tried and used to have different board brands, but now have mostly Burton or Endeavor. Like 2 Endeavor and 7? or so Burton... 

Used to have a few binding brands too; but have narrowed it down to only Now and Burton bindings.

Sold off everything else. 

EST bindings with channel is awesome for board feel and flex. Now with channel is awesome for response and adjustability.


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## LALUNE (Feb 23, 2017)

My only gripe is EST bindings screws tend to come loose if you ride very aggressively. I personally have to check the screws everyday to make sure they are tight and my angles are right before riding.

But I love the board feel using est so I guess I will live with it.


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## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

LALUNE said:


> My only gripe is EST bindings screws tend to come loose if you ride very aggressively. I personally have to check the screws everyday to make sure they are tight and my angles are right before riding.
> 
> But I love the board feel using est so I guess I will live with it.


My screws came loose a couple times with Ride Capo and Flux bindings; so what I did was put a little strip of nail polish on the side of the screws/threads. Problem solved. That, and tighten everything like a mofo.

I now do that with all bindings, whether it's EST, reflex, or other brands.... zero issues.


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## LALUNE (Feb 23, 2017)

F1EA said:


> My screws came loose a couple times with Ride Capo and Flux bindings; so what I did was put a little strip of nail polish on the side of the screws/threads. Problem solved. That, and tighten everything like a mofo.
> 
> I now do that with all bindings, whether it's EST, reflex, or other brands.... zero issues.


Would this cause problems when you want to unscrew them?


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## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

LALUNE said:


> Would this cause problems when you want to unscrew them?


None at all. 

But you wait until the nail polish is dry on the screws before mounting them. It's cleaner this way.

Also, if you mount and dismount your bindings a lot, you will have to redo the nail polish after a few times because it will peel off the screw... but I pretty much only loosen a bit for waxing so it's never an issue.


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## LALUNE (Feb 23, 2017)

F1EA said:


> None at all.
> 
> But you wait until the nail polish is dry on the screws before mounting them. It's cleaner this way.
> 
> Also, if you mount and dismount your bindings a lot, you will have to redo the nail polish after a few times because it will peel off the screw... but I pretty much only loosen a bit for waxing so it's never an issue.


Sold on this, amazon order placed. Thanks man!


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## Craig64 (Jul 16, 2015)

If your screws are coming loose you could email Burton and they will probably send you a new set. I've had a problem only once when they would go loose years ago but never lately. I've had EST bindings since they first came out from Malavita to GenX. Brilliant bindings.


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## wredny (Dec 28, 2018)

F1EA said:


> My screws came loose a couple times with Ride Capo and Flux bindings; so what I did was put a little strip of nail polish on the side of the screws/threads. Problem solved. That, and tighten everything like a mofo.
> 
> 
> 
> I now do that with all bindings, whether it's EST, reflex, or other brands.... zero issues.


Or you could use loctite.


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## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

wredny said:


> Or you could use loctite.


Yeah but no. Not the same... loctite dries thinner, so it doesn't lock-up as well. Also takes longer to dry and if you leave it wet it can damage the board laminates...

Nail polish is super cheap and everyone has some.


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## Craig64 (Jul 16, 2015)

F1EA said:


> Yeah but no. Not the same... loctite dries thinner, so it doesn't lock-up as well. Also takes longer to dry and if you leave it wet it can damage the board laminates...
> 
> Nail polish is super cheap and everyone has some.


There is a lot of different loctites. I think 567 looks like the best. However a lot more expensive than clear nail polish.


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## f00bar (Mar 6, 2014)

I'd go with some teflon tape. It does a great job filling the threads keeping them from working their way out on their own and has the benefit of never having to worry about them seizing if you crank them down a lot.

I'm afraid to go with nail polish because I hate when I go to do my toe nails and find out I've used the last of it on my bindings.


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## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

Craig51 said:


> There is a lot of different loctites. I think 567 looks like the best. However a lot more expensive than clear nail polish.


Yeah that's what I mean... you can get very specific loctitie or other products that would work... but then you have to purposedly go and find something specialized, will cost whatever $ and you will only use for this........

Instead..... go steal your wife's nail polish and done.
Worst case, go to the $1 dollar store and buy black nail polish. Works for Halloween and your bindings.



f00bar said:


> I'm afraid to go with nail polish because I hate when I go to do my toe nails and find out I've used the last of it on my bindings.


You only use 1 color of nail polish?
You need more spice in your life.


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## Mano (Mar 2, 2019)

The issue is that the binding base simply has a slack that enables it to lift a few mm from the board. 
Attached is a photo representing it. 

Having this issue degrades controlling the board. 
It’s a real nuisances that relay influenced my ride. 

Do you have the same slack ? 
Have you experienced the affect of inferior board control ?

Thanks
Adi


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## Mano (Mar 2, 2019)

View attachment 7771409F-6AEC-4AF6-8E7D-53C9EF9FA092_1552038262517.jpg
View attachment 7771409F-6AEC-4AF6-8E7D-53C9EF9FA092_1552038262517.jpg


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## Mano (Mar 2, 2019)

Attached the link to the video 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=31SROvmvfc8


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## Phedder (Sep 13, 2014)

Mano said:


> Having this issue degrades controlling the board.
> It’s a real nuisances that relay influenced my ride.


I doubt it. 



Mano said:


> Do you have the same slack ?


Yes.



Mano said:


> Have you experienced the affect of inferior board control ?


Not at all. 


When you lean toeside, you're *pressing down* on the toe edge of the board, not lifting up the heelside. Your binding will never lift anywhere close to how much you'll pulling it off the base of your board, and that movement doesn't delay any response.


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## Raddad (Jan 29, 2020)

Mano said:


> I have a burton custom with the channel, and been experiencing issues with controlling the board. I suspect the channel binding system is not holding the binding well.
> 
> Looking into it, I saw that the binding have some degree of freedom such that they bent at the heel side under pressure. In particular front side turns when you push on your toes.
> If you try to push the binding they lift a few mm from the board.
> ...


Yes I have noticed the heel lifting during turns too. Not happy about it! Makes me want to buy a whole different set-up as I am new to using the est/ics system. There is less control and a ‘lag’ with toe side turns.


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## SGboarder (Jun 24, 2012)

Raddad said:


> Yes I have noticed the heel lifting during turns too. Not happy about it! Makes me want to buy a whole different set-up as I am new to using the est/ics system. There is less control and a ‘lag’ with toe side turns.


The heel of the binding lifting of the board has nothing to do with the channel. Happens with all kinds of bindings and mounting systems. Burton bindings (both EST and reflex) are a bit more prone to this because of the flexy baseplate.

But as Phedder explained above it has zero effect on response/control and there is no lag or anything like that.


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## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

Raddad said:


> There is less control and a ‘lag’ with toe side turns.


No there isn't.


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## Rip154 (Sep 23, 2017)

Only had this issue with the "minimal contact" minidisc Unions. But the issue was snow buildup under the binding, which is annoying enough. Suspect the channel mounts on that setup isn't locking the solid part of the Union bindings down well enough.


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## Raddad (Jan 29, 2020)

Are yo


SGboarder said:


> The heel of the binding lifting of the board has nothing to do with the channel. Happens with all kinds of bindings and mounting systems. Burton bindings (both EST and reflex) are a bit more prone to this because of the flexy baseplate.
> 
> But as Phedder explained above it has zero effect on response/control and there is no lag or anything like that.


Are you an engineer? Mathematically.... calculate the leverage lost with the heel of the binding lifting. The degrees of leverage change. There is a loss of leverage and force with ‘Play’. Yes all bindings have some play but saying that there is ‘no’ response/control difference is untrue. It’s math!


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## Phedder (Sep 13, 2014)

Raddad said:


> Are you an engineer? Mathematically.... calculate the leverage lost with the heel of the binding lifting. The degrees of leverage change. There is a loss of leverage and force with ‘Play’. Yes all bindings have some play but saying that there is ‘no’ response/control difference is untrue. It’s math!


I'm not an engineer, but I do snowboard enough to know what slop or loss of leverage feels like. I ride pretty much permanently on edge, I'd say I fit more turns in a run than most, and own or have owned some very responsive bindings like Rome Targa, Now Drive etc. I've also owned Burton Genesis X, Genesis, Cartel, Cartel LTD, and Malavitas. All of those in EST, some in Reflex as well. I've never once felt or noticed that any burton binding had a 'lag' relative to it's flex. Yes, a Targa is going to be more responsive than a Cartel. But compared to the Genesis X, I never felt like I was losing response because of the EST system, or hesitated to take them into the tightest of trees or most demanding terrain where I need quick response. They perform just as well as any equivalent 4 hole binding, you're not losing response because of the EST system.

I'm also not a Burton fanboy by any means. I've owned plenty of their bindings and boards over the years but I have pretty much zero brand loyalty outside of really liking specific products if it fits my needs and demands. If anything I'd say Rome is my pick for bindings lately just because the Pivot Mount is a life saver for comfort, and their footbeds are quite thick and cushy which helps dampen landings and provide a bit more boot clearance for carving.

If you don't like the overall 'feel' of the binding/set up then so be it, everyone has their preferences for sure, but I truly believe if you're telling the board to turn it's going to turn just as fast as any equivalent 4 hole binding.


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## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

Raddad said:


> Are yo
> 
> Are you an engineer? Mathematically.... calculate the leverage lost with the heel of the binding lifting. The degrees of leverage change. There is a loss of leverage and force with ‘Play’. Yes all bindings have some play but saying that there is ‘no’ response/control difference is untrue. It’s math!


First of all... it wouldn't be MATH. It's physics, or mechanics, or materials science or something like that. Or maybe magic.

Second...
No. There's no "lag", no loss of leverage, etc. compared to standard discs.

Third...
Why bother with math or physics?? If you don't like the bindings, sell them and get something else. But... they don't have a lag, a loss of response, etc.

To put your "argument" to rest... NOW bindings completely rocker and hinge at the mounting base allowing far more lift and play than anything else... and yet, they're some of the most responsive bindings out there. You can mount them on regular 4 holes or channel and they have the exact same response. Magic.


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## Raddad (Jan 29, 2020)

F1EA said:


> First of all... it wouldn't be MATH. It's physics, or mechanics, or materials science or something like that. Or maybe magic.
> 
> Second...
> No. There's no "lag", no loss of leverage, etc. compared to standard discs.
> ...


Physics and mechanics are MATH. We all have opinions. Some more educated than others. I can work out the equations and post them. I ride mostly park, was a contest rider years ago. Now I work for an engineering company. I put a lot of torque on my bindings. I probably do need stiffer bindings. I just started riding Burton’s est system so I am new to it. It feels different.


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## Rip154 (Sep 23, 2017)

It's not lag, it's progressive flex, very popular with skiers.


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## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

Raddad said:


> Physics and mechanics are MATH. We all have opinions. Some more educated than others. I can work out the equations and post them. I ride mostly park, was a contest rider years ago. Now I work for an engineering company. I put a lot of torque on my bindings. I probably do need stiffer bindings. I just started riding Burton’s est system so I am new to it. It feels different.


As I said. Physics, Mechanics, engineering is not math. They USE math, but they are something else (ie. OTHER disciplines). The law of gravity is not "math". Material deformation is not math. You can represent it, explain it, quantify it, etc USING math. But it is not math. Chemistry and even biology use math... but they are not math.

math·e·mat·ics
/maTH(ə)ˈmadiks/
_noun_

the abstract science of number, quantity, and space. Mathematics may be studied in its own right ( _pure mathematics_ ), or as it is applied to other disciplines such as physics and engineering ( _applied mathematics_).
Anyways...
Maybe you just got softer bindings than you wanted or were used to. But on equal terms... normal 4 hole bindings and est feel almost the same. And a channel board feels pretty much the same as a 4 hole board. Minus some small little feel, features, adjustment posibilities etc.

If you ride Reflex Genesis on a 4hole board... they will feel pretty much the same as a EST Genesis, if they were on the same board. There's some small difference because of the different baseplate, cushioning, hinge, etc. The EST makes a board feel a certain way underfoot because they have no plastic and only padding underfoot. Plus the Hinge. So the board flexes a bit more differently. The hinge lets you move your weight tip to tail a bit more so pop, presses etc feel different.

I have tried normal Genesis on 4hole and channel boards same with Now Drive and Now Pilot, and Flux SF and Ride Capo. The Genesis feel exactly the same minus some differences unrelated to response and more related to just how the channel lets a board flex. The others have pretty much the same response in channel board vs 2x4 board; but channel feels a little different... in a good way. 

Also... NOW bindings rock even more than est between the heel and toe because of the SkateTech hanger. With absolutely no loss in response, actually... increased response.

In the end, it's more about the specific board or binding in question. I do not like Malavitas... i find them too soft. Yet lots of people rave about them.

But I really like Genesis and Genesis X. Also EST Diodes are a fucking powerhouse, with absolutely zero lag, lack of response etc. Yet they aren't mega super stiff... and are super light too. It's still relatively medium-ish binding, with est, hinge and to mount on channel boards... yet... tons of response. But they don't make Diodes anymore. I don't like them that much either, I prefer a bit less response.

But all is comparable to several metal/carbon bindings from Ride, Union, Rome, etc. So as others have mentioned, the channel or est in itself does not cause a loss in response. Going to a softer binding or wider, or stiffer board.... is a different thing.

In general, Burton has a lot of softer, more flexible and playful bindings. Many others make really stiff bindings. Pick and choose and go for what you like. But... there's no lag or loss of response from the channel/est.


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