# Union Force vs Burton Cartels



## ek9max

Union force. Cartels are nice too. But I've had lots of friends had problems with the ladders.


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## Mystery2many

I have had both but sold the cartels because they were too stiff for me. What kind of riding do you do? And what kind of stiffness are you looking for?

I ride the 2013 force and I love how it feels but toe strap is a pain in the ass to pop loose riding up to the lift. If you can deal with that, then that's what I would suggest.


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## ek9max

Yea. It's just the toe strap that is tough sometimes. 

But once you figure it out. It's always easy. 

Instead of just pulling up on the one side of the buckle with your thumb. Pull AND PUSH down on the other side of the buckle. Pops out easy every time!


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## Mystery2many

ek9max said:


> Yea. It's just the toe strap that is tough sometimes.
> 
> But once you figure it out. It's always easy.
> 
> Instead of just pulling up on the one side of the buckle with your thumb. Pull AND PUSH down on the other side of the buckle. Pops out easy every time!


Nice tip! I will definitely try that out. Thanks


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## ek9max

Use it like a lever. Works every time. Made go from being annoyed with the binding to loving it.


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## Mystery2many

Makes sense. Should have come with a "for dummies" booklet. lol :dizzy:


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## Extremo

Nathanofficial said:


> I Have a 2014 lib tech skate Banana. I can get the Forces pretty cheap. I would rather the Cartels. Any suggestions?


Both good bindings. It really comes down to fit and preference of feel/flex. I had a problem with the Burton strap twisting as it tightened and stripping the ladder.


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## Alkasquawlik

Extremo said:


> Both good bindings. It really comes down to fit and preference of feel/flex.


This, exactly this.


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## snowboarder421

I would say Union Force. my friend got Cartels and they were too stiff for him, as i saw someone else say earlier.


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## Derp

Love the Force I got last year.

If you go the Union route, take the time to dial them in. Everyone fits differently. Took me a few days of riding to really figure them out and get the settings right. Once I did I was completely happy with them and had no problems with getting them on/off, tight/loose, or any sort of pain.


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## hktrdr

snowboarder421 said:


> I would say Union Force. my friend got Cartels and they were too stiff for him, as i saw someone else say earlier.


Are you seriously suggesting that the Cartels are stiffer than the Forces!?


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## ek9max

hktrdr said:


> Are you seriously suggesting that the Cartels are stiffer than the Forces!?


Id have to agree. My 2013 union force were stiffer than my 2009 Burton cartels.


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## Mystery2many

My cartels felt much stiffer and less playful then my forces.


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## Steezus Christ

both are awesome bindings and u will be happy with either but i feel as though forces would be so much more ideal on a skate banana than the cartels. the flex pattern is better suited and will have a more natural flow. but depends on what style of riding ur into. cartels are better suited for an all-mountain style of riding as apposed to freestyle. malavitas would be more on point for freestyle. 

love my forces, absolutely bomb-proof. going onto my 3rd season with them, well over 120 days and only needed to replace one ladder but that was only because i let my friend borrow the board and it came back folded/creased about 3cm from the tip of the ladder. it still clipped in just fine and there was nothing wrong with riding them like that but i have a bit of an OCD issue when it comes to things like that. i know a lot of people that went with cartels and parts were falling apart after about the 50 day mark. also not the biggest fan of canted footbeds.


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## hktrdr

Steezus Christ said:


> both are awesome bindings and u will be happy with either but i feel as though forces would be so much more ideal on a skate banana than the cartels. the flex pattern is better suited and will have a more natural flow. but depends on what style of riding ur into. cartels are better suited for an all-mountain style of riding as apposed to freestyle. malavitas would be more on point for freestyle.
> 
> love my forces, absolutely bomb-proof. going onto my 3rd season with them, well over 120 days and only needed to replace one ladder but that was only because i let my friend borrow the board and it came back folded/creased about 3cm from the tip of the ladder. it still clipped in just fine and there was nothing wrong with riding them like that but i have a bit of an OCD issue when it comes to things like that. i know a lot of people that went with cartels and parts were falling apart after about the 50 day mark. also not the biggest fan of canted footbeds.


Most of that post is just utter nonsense.


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## Steezus Christ

how could a post based off personal experience be utter nonsense?


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## Flylo

I've got a 12/13 pair of forces and swapped out the union toe strap for a burton toe strap. Sure, it costs $40 more but hey. Do whatever makes you happy. 

Ps: do what I did!


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## Supra

Steezus Christ said:


> how could a post based off personal experience be utter nonsense?


it's quite difficult but you have come through in the clutch


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## hktrdr

Supra said:


> Steezus Christ said:
> 
> 
> 
> how could a post based off personal experience be utter nonsense?
> 
> 
> 
> it's quite difficult but you have come through in the clutch
Click to expand...

Indeed, some real gems in his post:

"forces would be so much more ideal on a skate banana than the cartels" - _not just better (which is already debatable) but *so much more ideal*. Me thinks not..._
"flex pattern is better suited and will have a more natural flow" - _Bullshit._
"cartels are better suited for an all-mountain style of riding as apposed to freestyle" - _Nope._
"i know a lot of people that went with cartels and parts were falling apart after about the 50 day mark" - _*a lot of people*, eh? One wonders then why there are so few people complaining about the longevity of Burton bindings here, on EL, etc. or why the return rates are considerably lower than for Union in our shops ..._


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## UNION INHOUSE

hktrdr said:


> or why the return rates are considerably lower than for Union in our shops ...[/I]
> [/LIST]


What shops?


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## Steezus Christ

hktrdr said:


> Are you seriously suggesting that the Cartels are stiffer than the Forces!?


lol they are though.. cartels have a flex index of 7.



hktrdr said:


> Indeed, some real gems in his post:
> 
> "forces would be so much more ideal on a skate banana than the cartels" - _not just better (which is already debatable) but *so much more ideal*. Me thinks not..._
> "flex pattern is better suited and will have a more natural flow" - _Bullshit._
> "cartels are better suited for an all-mountain style of riding as apposed to freestyle" - _Nope._
> "i know a lot of people that went with cartels and parts were falling apart after about the 50 day mark" - _*a lot of people*, eh? One wonders then why there are so few people complaining about the longevity of Burton bindings here, on EL, etc. or why the return rates are considerably lower than for Union in our shops ..._


dude ur getting so worked up over an internet post. u haven't contributed anything to this thread but just try to call out other peoples post. read my post again and u will see I said both were good bindings and he'd be happy with either. im just saying that out of my own personal experience, the force would be better suited, but of course that is for my style of riding. 


*"forces would be so much more ideal on a skate banana than the cartels" - not just better (which is already debatable) but *so much more ideal*. Me thinks not... - how about re-reading my post again and u will see I said *I feel* that the forces would be more ideal, not a factual statement, just personal opinion. 

*"flex pattern is better suited and will have a more natural flow" - Bullshit. - how so? once again, not adding to the thread, just calling out other posts. the baseplates on the forces have been designed so that only 20% of the base actually makes contact with the board, thus allowing for a more natural board flex. if the OP was riding EST cartels with an EST board, than maybe perhaps it could allow for a more natural flex but last time I checked a skate banana doesn't use EST.

*"cartels are better suited for an all-mountain style of riding as apposed to freestyle" - Nope. - im not saying that Cartels are no good for freestyle, just saying I prefer the forces in the park. and if it came down to it, I would choose a pair of malavitas (with a flex of 6, that better match with a board that flexes at a 5) for freestyle over cartels (that have a flex of 7). straight from the burton website - "the Malavita balances full wrap response around your boots with a mid-range flex that’s 100% focused on freestyle."

*"i know a lot of people that went with cartels and parts were falling apart after about the 50 day mark" - *a lot of people*, eh? One wonders then why there are so few people complaining about the longevity of Burton bindings here, on EL, etc. or why the return rates are considerably lower than for Union in our shops ... - so ur saying I don't know people that bought cartels? how could u even suggest that statement, u have no idea who I am or who I know, so how would you know what bindings theyre riding on? oh and just because u work in a shop doesn't mean shit. I could say the same thing about the one I work at, I've had very few if any complaints at all about the union forces.

maybe try adding a little more to ur replies to actually help the guy choose a binding rather than just rat on everyone who doesn't agree with u. tell us why the cartels are so much better so the OP and other people facing the same decision can come to an easier conclusion. for me, the conclusion was union forces over burton cartels as they are better suited for *my* style of riding. doesn't mean the cartels are no good.


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## Extremo

Mystery2many said:


> My cartels felt much stiffer and less playful then my forces.


Odd, I found the Cartel's baseplate comparable, the toe strap more responsive, the ankle strap softer, and the high-back more flexible. I think the overall flex of the Force was a tad stiffer. This thread has turned stupid.


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## Nivek

Steezus Christ said:


> the baseplates on the forces have been designed so that only 20% of the base actually makes contact with the board, thus allowing for a more natural board flex. if the OP was riding EST cartels with an EST board, than maybe perhaps it could allow for a more natural flex but last time I checked a skate banana doesn't use EST.


This whole % of the baseplate thing touching the board is more marketing than real effect. It does something, but not as drastic as Union claims. And guess what, you get more board flex out of these Cartels you're talking about than the Force. ReFlex home slice.



Steezus Christ said:


> *"cartels are better suited for an all-mountain style of riding as apposed to freestyle" - Nope. - im not saying that Cartels are no good for freestyle, just saying I prefer the forces in the park. and if it came down to it, I would choose a pair of malavitas (with a flex of 6, that better match with a board that flexes at a 5) for freestyle over cartels (that have a flex of 7).


For starters, are you really comparing numbered flexes between brands? And between bindings and boards on top of that? Good hell. Not to mention you clearly haven't actually ridden the Cartels or Malavitas. And you trust manufacturers websites too. Just winning. The Cartel is softer than the Malavita. This became pretty clear last season. 



Steezus Christ said:


> I've had very few if any complaints at all about the union forces.


Good for you. I had plenty. And our parts box was empty by January. I personally never had an issue with the 3 pairs I owned. As in they always stayed functional. There were things that broke, but nothing that made the bindings unrideable.

Anyway, I did all that for arguments sake, and to call out bullshit.

OP: Both will fit that board great. I wouldn't get the 2013 Forces though, shoot for 2014. I can't imagine the changes completely fucked the way it rides, so it can't be anything except better. Better toe strap, better shaped heelcup, better heel dampening.

That said, if it were me (except it wouldn't be cause I hate the Banana), Cartels.


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## Mystery2many

Extremo said:


> Odd, I found the Cartel's baseplate comparable, the toe strap more responsive, the ankle strap softer, and the high-back more flexible. I think the overall flex of the Force was a tad stiffer. This thread has turned stupid.


Well I can't say you didn't feel what you felt. They were overly responsive for my style of riding. The high back caused pressure points when doing certain tricks and didn't have enough playful flex for my liking. The person I sold them to rides hard and fast and he loves the stiffness. I would not say the force bindings are overly flexible neither, especially compared to my ride rodeo bindings. But they gave me a much more even flex that doesn't cause pain. 

As for toe strap response. I honestly can't say that I would notice the difference.


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## Steezus Christ

Nivek said:


> This whole % of the baseplate thing touching the board is more marketing than real effect. It does something, but not as drastic as Union claims. And guess what, you get more board flex out of these Cartels you're talking about than the Force. ReFlex home slice.


if that's the case, than how does burton's reflex technology have any more credibility over unions? all a marketing gimmick right?




Nivek said:


> For starters, are you really comparing numbered flexes between brands?


not between brands, just between burton.



Nivek said:


> Anyway, I did all that for arguments sake, and to call out bullshit.


forces and cartels are up there amongst some of the most sought after bindings on the market, so obviously ur going to have the never ending argument between the fans of both. why not just offer ur own opinion on the bindings instead of calling out peoples "bullshit" that's based off of their own personal experiences with the bindings. Ive ridden all 3 plus more and I found the forces most suitable for me. why are u even trying to argue that?


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## Nivek

Steezus Christ said:


> if that's the case, than how does burton's reflex technology have any more credibility over unions? all a marketing gimmick right?


Burton's ReFlex lets the whole binding bend in the middle... Union still has a solid disc. Which do you think has a bigger dead spot? Oh and I'VE OWNED BOTH (all caps for dramatic effect). ReFlex works more.



Steezus Christ said:


> not between brands, just between burton.


Should we all re-read what you wrote?


Steezus Christ said:


> I would choose a pair of malavitas (with a flex of 6, that better match with a board that flexes at a 5) for freestyle over cartels (that have a flex of 7).





Steezus Christ said:


> forces and cartels are up there amongst some of the most sought after bindings on the market, so obviously ur going to have the never ending argument between the fans of both. why not just offer ur own opinion on the bindings instead of calling out peoples "bullshit" that's based off of their own personal experiences with the bindings. Ive ridden all 3 plus more and I found the forces most suitable for me. why are u even trying to argue that?


Yeah I think I did offer my opinion. And called out your koolaid bullshit.


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## Steezus Christ

Nivek said:


> Burton's ReFlex lets the whole binding bend in the middle... Union still has a solid disc. Which do you think has a bigger dead spot? Oh and I'VE OWNED BOTH (all caps for dramatic effect). ReFlex works more.
> 
> 
> Should we all re-read what you wrote?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah I think I did offer my opinion. And called out your koolaid bullshit.


you cant argue against somebodies personal preferences. there is literally no way of disproving it. I prefer to ride union. that's it. tell me more about how much you prefer burtons, I'm not arguing that they're bad bindings. just in my own experience, I prefer the forces.


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## Nivek

Where are you reading that I said your recommendation or opinion was wrong? I dont see it. I see where I point out things you call opinions are indeed facts.

Your "opinion" about more boardflex is wrong based on physics. You compared flex numbers between brands, then denied it. And you gave your experience with their durability. I didn't say yours was wrong, simply gave mine as well. Then I gave my personal opinion.

Someones angry I called them out on the interwebz!


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## jwelsh83

Mystery2many said:


> I have had both but sold the cartels because they were too stiff for me. What kind of riding do you do? And what kind of stiffness are you looking for?
> 
> I ride the 2013 force and I love how it feels but toe strap is a pain in the ass to pop loose riding up to the lift. If you can deal with that, then that's what I would suggest.


Yeah, you're referring to the 2013 and older Unions. They revamped the toe straps on all Union models and added push pins to some. Is it an overall fix? I couldn't tell you. I coughed up some dough for a pair of the 2014 Atlas and 2014 Contacts and to me, the toe straps are easier to get out of than my 2012 flites. Most people don't have a clue unless they do their own homework and get off their ass and into a shop and do the dirty work. Everybody wants to take the golden word of the internet..."I saw it on the internet, so it must be true"


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## Mystery2many

jwelsh83 said:


> Yeah, you're referring to the 2013 and older Unions. They revamped the toe straps on all Union models and added push pins to some. Is it an overall fix? I couldn't tell you. I coughed up some dough for a pair of the 2014 Atlas and 2014 Contacts and to me, the toe straps are easier to get out of than my 2012 flites. Most people don't have a clue unless they do their own homework and get off their ass and into a shop and do the dirty work. Everybody wants to take the golden word of the internet..."I saw it on the internet, so it must be true"


Your right about that. I've messed with the new contact pro at Peter Glenn and I'm impressed. But personal experience is the best review one could have.


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## Triple8Sol

I'm not a Burton guy but after demoing their Cartels last season, that would be a clear choice imo. Have owned several pairs of Forces and although I liked them at first, they have been seriously outclassed by their competitors the last few seasons.


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