# Jones Carbon flagship 168W slow?



## skirabbit (Feb 5, 2015)

Hi All

I have just bought the above board and I am concerned about how slow it is (i can hear the howls of derision from here) but humour me. Has anyone else had a problem? At first I thought it was just an issue that my previous board - a Salomon 166W was just super fast. We had a powder day last weekend and my wife and friends who normally cannot keep up with me were all flying past me - I kept on grinding to a halt in places where I would be carving out S's with my Salomon. The board is brand new. So I rewaxed the board myself - carefully selecting the right temp wax - scrapped down and nylon brushed - I used to tune my sons alpine racing boards so I know a little about what I am doing - the board was still slow. We did a test - My wife on her hovercraft, two friends on rentals (bottoms gray from no wax) and me on my flippin expensive carbon flagship - we went down - on piste - a gentle slope that flattened out. I stopped first - my wife went almost twice the distance - and these were all people that normally cannot keep up with me. Any ideas????? What am I doing wrong? Anyone experience this?


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## Guest (Feb 5, 2015)

Makes zero sense to me. I have a regular Jones Flagship and no one even comes close to keeping up with me if they are on a snowboard. I even keep up with some of the sponsored Skier guys.

I also tune my snowboard with temp specific wax.


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## binarypie (Nov 29, 2009)

skirabbit said:


> Hi All
> 
> I have just bought the above board and I am concerned about how slow it is (i can hear the howls of derision from here) but humour me. Has anyone else had a problem? At first I thought it was just an issue that my previous board - a Salomon 166W was just super fast. We had a powder day last weekend and my wife and friends who normally cannot keep up with me were all flying past me - I kept on grinding to a halt in places where I would be carving out S's with my Salomon. The board is brand new. So I rewaxed the board myself - carefully selecting the right temp wax - scrapped down and nylon brushed - I used to tune my sons alpine racing boards so I know a little about what I am doing - the board was still slow. We did a test - My wife on her hovercraft, two friends on rentals (bottoms gray from no wax) and me on my flippin expensive carbon flagship - we went down - on piste - a gentle slope that flattened out. I stopped first - my wife went almost twice the distance - and these were all people that normally cannot keep up with me. Any ideas????? What am I doing wrong? Anyone experience this?



Not being able to see a video and know what you may or may not be doing my only guess is something is wrong with your technique on this board shape.


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## neni (Dec 24, 2012)

Very surprising to hear. I've a Flag and Mothership, hubby has a Carbon Flag and we are on and on astonished how very fast their bases are... they pick up speed immediately if you leave them - (and accelerate very quickly as soon as I crouch to a speed where I feel uncomfortable and use the wind to brake ). So yes, I'm astonished about your issues cos the hub's Carb Flag has done three digit km/h tempi on our short race track.

Assuming you do have picked the right way, I can only imagine that you ride hard on edge when you point it? If I wanna go fast, I ride them flat based. On edge, l feel how the mellow magnetraction drags a tiny bit and slows me a bit down. So if your wife is flat-basing and you ain't, this could make a difference :dunno:


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## ComaShell (Mar 10, 2013)

Did you try swapping boards?:chin:


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## poutanen (Dec 22, 2011)

Based on what you said, it can only be something related to the base. You said you brushed it with a nylon brush, stiff bristle or soft?

Any chance you can get a close up picture of the base structure?

It's possible something go screwed up with they made it, and they didn't structure the base properly. I would assume every massed produced board gets the same treatment, but maybe somebody missed a step?!?

FWIW, I haven't waxed in about 50 days, and my board is still quick. I'm of the belief that it's all down to structure.


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## PlanB (Nov 21, 2014)

This sounds unusual as others have said. 

How (or did you) clean the base before you applied your own wax? 

Could there have been residual wax and/or another substance on your base and you simply waxed over that?


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## turktheripper (Feb 26, 2015)

skirabbit said:


> Hi All
> 
> I have just bought the above board and I am concerned about how slow it is (i can hear the howls of derision from here) but humour me. Has anyone else had a problem? At first I thought it was just an issue that my previous board - a Salomon 166W was just super fast. We had a powder day last weekend and my wife and friends who normally cannot keep up with me were all flying past me - I kept on grinding to a halt in places where I would be carving out S's with my Salomon. The board is brand new. So I rewaxed the board myself - carefully selecting the right temp wax - scrapped down and nylon brushed - I used to tune my sons alpine racing boards so I know a little about what I am doing - the board was still slow. We did a test - My wife on her hovercraft, two friends on rentals (bottoms gray from no wax) and me on my flippin expensive carbon flagship - we went down - on piste - a gentle slope that flattened out. I stopped first - my wife went almost twice the distance - and these were all people that normally cannot keep up with me. Any ideas????? What am I doing wrong? Anyone experience this?


I have a 2015 Jones Aviator 160cm, and I agree with this statement.

The board does not glide well at all. I literally was stuck in powder this past weekend while my friends with their old shitty boards went along no problem.

It's definitely a fast board once you get it going, I hit 76.4mph on it, but when the trail goes flat you better have your shit together because you're going to have to work for it to keep gliding.


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## skirabbit (Feb 5, 2015)

*nearly winter again and trying to solve the problem*



neni said:


> Very surprising to hear. I've a Flag and Mothership, hubby has a Carbon Flag and we are on and on astonished how very fast their bases are... they pick up speed immediately if you leave them - (and accelerate very quickly as soon as I crouch to a speed where I feel uncomfortable and use the wind to brake ). So yes, I'm astonished about your issues cos the hub's Carb Flag has done three digit km/h tempi on our short race track.
> 
> Assuming you do have picked the right way, I can only imagine that you ride hard on edge when you point it? If I wanna go fast, I ride them flat based. On edge, l feel how the mellow magnetraction drags a tiny bit and slows me a bit down. So if your wife is flat-basing and you ain't, this could make a difference :dunno:


I doubt it as when I switch boards and go back to my trusty flat bottomed Salamon 166w she cannot keep up with me or glide as far as I can - so unless there is something about my style on the flagship - there should not be an issue. Swopping board wont say much as she is on a 161cm hovercraft - so I think at 186lbs naked I am too heavy for that board.


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## skirabbit (Feb 5, 2015)

I did not clean the base as Jones advised me that the base is very thirsty and could require multiple applications of wax - I am on my 5th or 6th wax - this season I will try and strip it and start from scratch.


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## francium (Jan 12, 2013)

Send it to me I'll test it. :hairy:


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## skirabbit (Feb 5, 2015)

I will sell it to you at a good price


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## francium (Jan 12, 2013)

Nah I'm sorted for snowboards. :dance1:


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## Martyc (Sep 8, 2013)

Well I have an Aviator and it's a fcukin missile! So there's something hooky with your Flag!


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## J.Schaef (Sep 13, 2009)

I have a 2016 solution spilt, took it for a few laps at the resort today. It was amazingly slow. I could probably set this thing down on a steep groomed run, base down, and it wouldn't even run away from me.

Pretty disappointing.


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## skirabbit (Feb 5, 2015)

J.Schaef said:


> I have a 2016 solution spilt, took it for a few laps at the resort today. It was amazingly slow. I could probably set this thing down on a steep groomed run, base down, and it wouldn't even run away from me.
> 
> Pretty disappointing.


hi all i can suggest is that i took mine to the board shop and they told me it had never been ground properly - they put it through the machine and it is a bit better - personally I would never buy another Jones


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## gmore10 (Dec 23, 2011)

There are no slow boards just slow riders.


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## WasabiCanuck (Apr 29, 2015)

Weird. I am considering buying a Jones but this thread is giving me second thoughts. :shrug:


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## neni (Dec 24, 2012)

gmore10 said:


> There are no slow boards just slow riders.


... or inappropriate wax/base grind for specific prevalent conditions.

One and the same board can be super fast on day A but super slow on day B. So yeah, you're actually right, it's the riders fault cos hif he inappropriately prepares the board for the prevalent conditions


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## Erik_H (Jan 19, 2016)

Well, if you want to get rid of it for low $$$, that's my dream unaffordable-board, so let me know...


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## neni (Dec 24, 2012)

Erik_H said:


> Well, if you want to get rid of it for low $$$, that's my dream unaffordable-board, so let me know...


Ehm... what size and where do you live? I've seen one on sale for 400$ when searching for a replacement one for the SO (too many shaks kill a board ).


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## Erik_H (Jan 19, 2016)

probably 168W, as it happens, since I'm 220 lbs and have size 11 feet.


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## quicktime (Aug 11, 2015)

I wouldn't be scared to buy a Jones board at all. I have an Aviator and it absolutely flies.


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## ridinbend (Aug 2, 2012)

What cha want for it bud?


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## J.Schaef (Sep 13, 2009)

gmore10 said:


> There are no slow boards just slow riders.


That's strange.

I also rode my Burton Barracuda 159 that same day. Both boards waxed with the same wax the day before. Barracuda was a rocket ship. 

I could have probably ridden faster on the jones if I put the skins on it before I strapped in.


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## ItchEtrigR (Jan 1, 2012)

J.Schaef said:


> That's strange.
> 
> I also rode my Burton Barracuda 159 that same day. Both boards waxed with the same wax the day before. Barracuda was a rocket ship.
> 
> I could have probably ridden faster on the jones if I put the skins on it before I strapped in.


It's either one of three things, the board is shit, your shit or all your friends are just faster riders than you. If the board is shit don't think you'll have too much trouble getting someone on here to take it off your hands.


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## Lamps (Sep 3, 2011)

poutanen said:


> Based on what you said, it can only be something related to the base. You said you brushed it with a nylon brush, stiff bristle or soft?
> 
> Any chance you can get a close up picture of the base structure?
> 
> ...


I wax but I also believe structure is most important. If it's warm and you don't have good structure you will stick, especially in the flats. The grooves are key to getting water out from under the board. 

My most structured board has grooves so deep it makes a zippering sound when it slides sideways. 

Get a stone grind with deep structure, it's great.


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## BFBF (Jan 15, 2012)

J.Schaef said:


> That's strange.
> 
> I also rode my Burton Barracuda 159 that same day. Both boards waxed with the same wax the day before. Barracuda was a rocket ship.
> 
> I could have probably ridden faster on the jones if I put the skins on it before I strapped in.



A few years back I got camber TRICE from backcountry.com

It came in and the base just looked wrong -- dry/white.

So I did my usual match wax temp/ copper brush/scotch brite and thought nothing of it is as it "looked" comsetically better post wax.

Slowest board on the planet - stopped on cat tracks/ passed by gf -- it just stuck. Would not glide

Multiple shops in CO = wax/ground you name it.

Friend at Lib came to the conclusion: "you got a bad base"
Came out of the factory wrong.

Threw it on Ebay and never looked back.

Tons of boards from all brands since with no issues.

Just like buying a car, its possible to get a "lemon">


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## scotty100 (Apr 3, 2012)

BFBF said:


> Slowest board on the planet - stopped on cat tracks/ passed by gf -- it just stuck. Would not glide
> )



I've experienced that also. I once had a NS SL that just felt slow all the time. Kept thinking it was me or wrong wax job etc. but every time I took it out with my Yes Greats to compare the difference between the 2 boards (with the same wax job) was night and day. Eventually I gave up and sold it. It led me to wonder what the difference in NS sintered bases actually is. Their more expensive boards have presumably "better and faster" bases but how good are they compared to other brands? Smokin' for example have higher rated sintered bases...does that make them potentially faster? Same for Jones...


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## WasabiCanuck (Apr 29, 2015)

BFBF said:


> A few years back I got camber TRICE from backcountry.com
> 
> It came in and the base just looked wrong -- dry/white.
> 
> ...


I wonder how this happens? I never heard of this until this thread. I mean did they just skip a step. Very bizarre. I'm glad to know it is not just Jones but many other top brands. Hopefully, this is extremely rare.


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## poutanen (Dec 22, 2011)

Lamps said:


> My most structured board has grooves so deep it makes a zippering sound when it slides sideways.


lol, yeah I love that sound when sliding on fresh groomer grooves. The board sings a little bit. >


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## BFBF (Jan 15, 2012)

WasabiCanuck said:


> I wonder how this happens? I never heard of this until this thread. I mean did they just skip a step. Very bizarre. I'm glad to know it is not just Jones but many other top brands. Hopefully, this is extremely rare.


It super rare -- I've owned a ton of boards -- That lib base was a defect.

To balance it out, my c2 trice i got few years later was one of the fastest ever.0


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## scotty100 (Apr 3, 2012)

The thing to take away from this is that all bases are not equal. Some, by virtue of the materials and processes used in manufacture, are much faster than others. The trick is to know what you're buying and factor that into your decision. 

Also that manufacturing defects can slip thru quality checks and you might be unlucky to end up with a dud base to begin with...


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## SGboarder (Jun 24, 2012)

scotty100 said:


> Smokin' for example have higher rated sintered bases...does that make them potentially faster? Same for Jones...


What do you mean the bases are 'rated' higher? By who and using what measure/metric?


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## J.Schaef (Sep 13, 2009)

Stone grind completed, Wet snow structure added. Will ride this week and see if it is any better.

Really hope so.


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## Shredtastic (Feb 13, 2014)

Please let us know !

I have the same problem with my carbon Flagship 158 2014. 
Have ridden it only 2 times last winter, and it stuck in wet powder on a medium warm day.. 
will try again in March when i am in Switzerland ..


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## neni (Dec 24, 2012)

Shredtastic said:


> Please let us know !
> 
> I have the same problem with my carbon Flagship 158 2014.
> Have ridden it only 2 times last winter, and it stuck in wet powder on a medium warm day..
> will try again in March when i am in Switzerland ..


Did you get a stone grind? _Every_ board will stick on wet ground due to sucction if it doesn't have a structure.


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## Shredtastic (Feb 13, 2014)

No, i didn't.
have to try that.
The Flagship was brand new, i thought it was ready to go..
Didn't know that from one of my other Boards when they come right out of the Box.


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## neni (Dec 24, 2012)

Shredtastic said:


> No, i didn't.
> have to try that.
> The Flagship was brand new, i thought it was ready to go..
> Didn't know that from one of my other Boards when they come right out of the Box.


It _was_ "Ready to go". For "normal" snow conditions. 

But wet snow simply is a special type of snow which sucks - literally - and needs a different preparation if you want _any_ board to perform well. Lol, I had a demo board recently which had the fanciest race base. It was raining on that day... board had no structured base... the fancy highend base was glued to the snow. 

I always get a stone grind to have structured base in spring = sucction of wet snow is reduced = base becomes faster in these conditions.


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## Shredtastic (Feb 13, 2014)

Sounds logic, thank you !
Had the same with a fresh waxed 2012 T-Rice...after that experience, i learned to brush a lot...


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## scotty100 (Apr 3, 2012)

SGboarder said:


> What do you mean the bases are 'rated' higher? By who and using what measure/metric?


7k sintered > 6k > 5k > 4k etc etc density of base material impacting wax absorption factor. Higher the sintered no. theoretically "faster" base. Smokin's bases are generally 6k up, Jones the same maybe even more...


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## Erik_H (Jan 19, 2016)

In all seriousness have you simply tried asking Jones? Their boards are generally great but they surely realize that sometimes an imperfection slips through the cracks. You would think that they would be willing to test it out, or let you compare a demo, etc. They want people to like their boards, after all. Call them up.


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## SGboarder (Jun 24, 2012)

scotty100 said:


> 7k sintered > 6k > 5k > 4k etc etc density of base material impacting wax absorption factor. Higher the sintered no. theoretically "faster" base. Smokin's bases are generally 6k up, Jones the same maybe even more...


You realize that those are just made-up marketing numbers by each brand, right? I could make a board and call the base 'Sintered 1 Million' but it would not be any faster.


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## 16gkid (Dec 5, 2012)

SGboarder said:


> You realize that those are just made-up marketing numbers by each brand, right? I could make a board and call the base 'Sintered 1 Million' but it would not be any faster.


Unless you called it TnT0


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## scotty100 (Apr 3, 2012)

SGboarder said:


> You realize that those are just made-up marketing numbers by each brand, right? I could make a board and call the base 'Sintered 1 Million' but it would not be any faster.


Good for you. Maybe you can help Jones out.


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## J.Schaef (Sep 13, 2009)

Erik_H said:


> In all seriousness have you simply tried asking Jones? Their boards are generally great but they surely realize that sometimes an imperfection slips through the cracks. You would think that they would be willing to test it out, or let you compare a demo, etc. They want people to like their boards, after all. Call them up.


Yes, I called Jones, They were awesome. If the stone grind doesn't help, it is probably headed back to them for some work/testing. If it isn't fixed, I am sure they will figure something out for me.


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## Judokick (Dec 1, 2015)

binarypie said:


> Not being able to see a video and know what you may or may not be doing my only guess is something is wrong with your technique on this board shape.


bold statement


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## Seppuccu (Dec 4, 2012)

SGboarder said:


> You realize that those are just made-up marketing numbers by each brand, right? I could make a board and call the base 'Sintered 1 Million' but it would not be any faster.


The number stands for molecular weight. Larger molecules have a larger molecular weight. They will also have larger gaps between the molecules, which can accommodate larger amounts of wax, which makes them faster.

That's the theory, anyway.


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