# Need carving help (video of me riding)



## Donutz (May 12, 2010)

First, what you're doing isn't "carving". What you're trying to do is link turns. "Carving" is when you're up on your edge during turns and leaving only a thin carved line on the snow. This doesn't mean you're doing it wrong, just means you're using the wrong term for what you're doing.

As to "ruddering", that happens when your weight is on your back leg. It's the number one problem beginners have and it's probably responsible for 90% of your problems. There are times when you do want your weight back of center, but during turns on a green run is not one of them. Your weight should be slightly forward of center so that the front half of the board is in control. There are all kinds of videos and instructions on the forum in the "Tips, Tricks & Coaching" section. Read up on proper weight distribution and edge control during turns.


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## aiidoneus (Apr 7, 2011)

It is difficult to see everything that is going on. The main parts where we get to see you, it is really only the board. However, it is very obvious from there that right now you are getting very little edge angle. That mixed with the video of your legs shows that you are not bending your knees much. 

The good news is it doesn't look like you are riding open, in other words you shoulders and body look to be in line with the board.

I could be wrong here, and I am only going from what I saw in the video (Snowolf will probably correct me). But it looks like you have very little edge angle for even skidded turns. Before working on carving it might be helpful to work on producing more edge angle with inclination. The means how much you lean the body in the turn. The next step would be bring more angulation into the turn. 

Without a solid edge angle, carving just isn't possible. Some tactics I have used to help with edge angle:

Hockey Stop - Hop

On terrain you are comfortable with, side slip down the hill on your heel side to start. Stop hard by flexing your lower joints. After you come to a stop, get your balance and hop 3 times. This helps develop a solid edge angle, and balance on the edge. Repeat with the toeside edge.

Pour Water From Boots

Imagine your boots are filled with water. As you begin each turn, try and start to empty the water out by pouring it from the top of the boot. Near the end of the turn slowly stop pouring it out. Toeside, try and pour it from the front. Heelside, from the back.


A fun challenge:

Sponsor Turns

Imagine that along the sides of the run are a bunch of spectators. You just got a sic contract to sponsor Never Summer boards. With each turn, your goal is to show off the bottom of your board.


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## jml22 (Apr 10, 2012)

Just wait for Snowolf's explanation


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## MGD81 (Mar 13, 2012)

Alright. 

I would disagree with some of the comments made, for instance, Donutz, I dont agree that ruddering is caused by weight being aft. I have actually seen many occasions when people have their weight center and fore and still use the mass from thier upper body as a counter weight to push out their back foot. I will agree that the OP is using his back foot to make toe turns though. 

I also dont buy that he should be working on inclination, he already does a shit ton of that on his toe side. It is correct that there is not much edge angle, but the way he is riding he doesn't need any, he is using the small radius skidded turns to control his speed, and doing a pretty good job of it. Also, what is the goal of the hockey stop drill? I can flex my ankles knees and hips fully and get no more edge or lose no more speed. FYI sponsor turns allow your base to be seen from up the hill, not the side.

Prescription for change:

First off I would work on that toeside posture, you are a little crooked meaning your hips are still a little over the center of the board, meaning less control especially on steeps. There could be a few causes, stiff boots, too much pushing down on your toes, or just not squeezing your butt cheeks together enough. You should be looking at a straight line from knees through hips to shoulders, and your back should be vertical, not slightly inclined like it is now. (watch yourself bending over in the video)

Second I would work on some front knee steering on your toes to stop the ruddering. Get yourself to some easy green terrain, point the board down the hill flat based and get it to turn onto your toes by flexing only your front knee, no use of the arms or shoulders, in fact if you hold them out over the tip and tail of your board you will know if your doing it right because they wont move from that position during the turn. If your front hand moves over your heel edge, you ruddered. 

Third, there is no flexion and extension in your riding, Im too tired to write any more, but take a lesson and work on some cross over turns, standing tall for edge change, lowering during the control and finish phases of the turns. 

As always, working with an instructor who can give you feedback after every run will always be more beneficial than an internet post.

Hope this helps, happy shredding.


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## aiidoneus (Apr 7, 2011)

On second view of the video, yes there is more inclination on the toeside. Not much on the heel side, instead a lot of bending at the waist. The more advanced version of sponsor turns is to show up hill, not the initial one. Not everyone can initiate their carve early enough in the turn to show up hill. As snowolf often points out, you need to complete the turn, and come up hill slightly to do this.

As for hockey stops, I just find it is a good way for people to learn to get on edge, and develop some balance while on edge. It is sometimes difficult for people to realize the mechanics of flexing the ankles and knees properly for angulation.

Granted I am only a level 1 casi instructor, so I have a lot to learn about teaching others.


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## cb1021 (Nov 21, 2010)

1. Go to a steeper hill.
2. Put more weight on front foot.
3. Stick your head towards the bottom of the hill, attack it.

You need more speed to feel what a carve feels like. Also carving is really not a big deal imo. You just ride however you want. All this "proper" carve, slide, S, J turn, skidded turn, whatever stuff is okay on paper. But on the slope, you gotta have fun and become one with your board and the slope. 

Btw some sections of the slope in the video looks steep enough to feel the carve, but you keep braking. ALso you are not even TURNING. You are riding in a straight line and wagging your tail brah. TURN more, and stop braking ("Ruddering")

I'm suggesting the steeper hill because some riders need to be whipped and forced by the terrain to improve.

Also if you set your bindings with a duck stance instead of directional stance, you will be able to carve more because with a ducked stance, you will need to lean more, thus using your body weight to set the edge. Right now, you are not even turning at all so I can't really see how you are making a turn, period.


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## Snow Hound (Jul 21, 2012)

What you're aiming for is:
.)
(
.)

Rather than:
/
\
/


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## ig88 (Jan 3, 2012)

Donutz said:


> First, what you're doing isn't "carving". What you're trying to do is link turns. "Carving" is when you're up on your edge during turns and *leaving only a thin carved line on the snow*. ......


This has been mentioned at least a few times in the forum and I think I understand what it is all about. I don't have any problems agreeing with that.

But do we have to examine the snow trails to see if a thin line was really left behind, before we define a ride as "carving" or just some linked turns? Or can we already tell by the body form and from the shear speed at which someone is _allegedly_ "carving"?


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## aiidoneus (Apr 7, 2011)

ig88 said:


> This has been mentioned at least a few times in the forum and I think I understand what it is all about. I don't have any problems agreeing with that.
> 
> But do we have to examine the snow trails to see if a thin line was really left behind, before we define a ride as "carving" or just some linked turns? Or can we already tell by the body form and from the shear speed at which someone is _allegedly_ "carving"?


The body position and movements are more important than the actual line left behind. Regardless of the line, a balanced position, proper timing and coordination and solid edging skills will result in a much more stable, and IMHO fun ride.

For me, looking back at my line while riding the lift (assuming you can see it, and it is actually your line) really helps tell you what you are doing right and doing wrong. Seeing that on my toeside I have a nice clean pencil line shows me that I am working in the right direction. 

Early on, I struggled with heelside turns. Looking at my line, I had a clean line on entry. But as the heelside carve progressed it began to widen and looked more like a skidded turn. At first I didn't know why, after talking to other riders and asking on the forum, I learned I was not shifting my weight aft as the turn completed and it was washing out.

If you just want to ride, no it really doesn't matter what you call it. So many people already call linking turns carving. If you want to progress, yes it matters. If you can't distinguish between the types, how can you ask questions. Skidded turns have their place, carving is just one technique of many.


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## ig88 (Jan 3, 2012)

Thank you. Great insights.

I think studying your lines retrospectively on the lift can get really interesting.


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## slyder (Jan 18, 2010)

I picked out that your front knee if very stiff and straight a lot of the time. Most of your weight seems to be at best centered and a bit more to the back, especially when you have that front knee locked.

You seem to initiate the turns with your hips giving you the skidded turns. These are fine if this is how you are trying to turn. 

Your camera work gives a great view of your feet showing that there is no torsional twist on your front foot to start your turns to pull the board into the turn giving you that sharp turn or carve. 

Like Donutz said, you should see a clean line in the snow behind you, not spray. 
Wolf will nail it down for sure he has this answer on file and then modified for each rider. He is stronger at pointing this out than me but this is what I see.

Skidded:







Carve:









You can see the tight line and how the rider is on his edge in the pic behind the rider:


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## cb1021 (Nov 21, 2010)

word up. get speed, feel the G


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## pwol (Mar 7, 2011)

I'm not going to reply to every post individually, but I wanna say thanks to everyone. I've gotten some insight and help from every post. 

I think most of my problems come from bad body position and being so stiff, especially in the knees. (among many other things lol) 

Again when I took my group lesson they only got upto the falling leaf. I never had any really knowledgeable snowboarders around to learn from. My friend who is a casual rider told me to use my back leg to help turn on toesides so I've just been doing that ever since. Hopefully I can try getting on the right path when I go up again tomorrow! 

Also to clear things up I never said I was carving, I meant I need help learning how to carve properly.


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## hktrdr (Apr 3, 2012)

slyder said:


> I picked out that your front knee if very stiff and straight a lot of the time. Most of your weight seems to be at best centered and a bit more to the back, especially when you have that front knee locked.
> 
> You seem to initiate the turns with your hips giving you the skidded turns. These are fine if this is how you are trying to turn.
> 
> ...


Hm, not really. I do not see the OP turn very much at all. Rather than making skidded turns, it looks like he is just swiveling the board while continuing to travel in the same direction. That can be a useful technique, but it sure as hell is not turning...

This is not to knock the OP - he is doing some things quite well, especially for a beginner. However, there are definitely several technique issues that he would be well advised to address before they become ingrained. Me thinks another lesson is in order.


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## ARSENALFAN (Apr 16, 2012)

Yikes. I hope that hill gets some snow real soon! We have hills that look like that in August.


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## pwol (Mar 7, 2011)

ARSENALFAN said:


> Yikes. I hope that hill gets some snow real soon! We have hills that look like that in August.


That footage was shot a month ago (before Thanksgiving lol), hopefully it'll look better tomorrow!


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## jml22 (Apr 10, 2012)

True carving is hard to perfect and not always necessary (even though it's fun), but it's kind of hard to do it effectively through the trees and bumps etc....
Being dynamic is what's important. 
Like someone said before it looks like you're wagging your tail and going straight down the mountain and not actually turning.
Watch the snowprofessors on videos, take a few hours to practice by yourself.

Bend your knees, get your weight forward so you're perpendicular to the slope and get full control of your board. Those would be the main things to work on right now. Start turning and then get more dynamic.


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## cocolulu (Jan 21, 2011)

What you're basically doing is sideslip turning. When you're sideslipping, you're applying the brakes, so you're not really carving.

The issue is that you're going one direction, and you whip the board another direction. It will sideslip until you ease up and let the edge take you in a new direction.

To carve, the goal is to get you're board at an angle and let the edge cut an arc through the snow. You will feel your board cut and sweep in an arc across the snow. It will not feel like grinding. You have to be patient with your board. Don't swing the board around, get on the edge, get your balance, and let the board turn you. If you try to rush the turn, you'll sideslip.

I frankly think you can carve on greens, it's just hard to get the speed you need for hard carving and hard turns. But greens is a good place to start, because you don't feel the need to apply the brakes and skid. Then you can take it to blues and blacks and try harder carving.


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## NoirX252 (Aug 1, 2009)

I just got back into riding softboots more often, and have realized how much knee drive really helps, although I have a question snowwolf.

1. instead of front/rear knee drive, what would driving both knees towards the turn do? as in heel side, rotating both knees/feet into the turn, regular stance, rotating the lower body joints counter-clockwise... and clockwise for toeside.

2. how radical should fore/aft be? if i get extremely radical, I feel like the turn ends before I get a chance to go aft, even on really big sidecuts on alpine boards, should it be automatic/subtle at higher levels of riding?

Knee drive is really powerful stuff..
Alpine gear..
1. snapped used bindings
2. bought new bindings, snapped it after 3 1/2 hours of riding...

 I just for shits tried it on softoboots, and despite it doing slightly different stuff at angles like 15/3, it still adds to the performance. I've seen videos like casi (twist the discs) always thought it was a load of bs, nope, I won't discount anything now and experiment super freely.

(PS: softboots have come such a dam long way, it's amazing)


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## jml22 (Apr 10, 2012)

Keep in mind it takes time to get used to the speed and you're gonna want to reflexively slow down. I wouldlnt rush this process cause you might panic and eat shit


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## MGD81 (Mar 13, 2012)

Im going to disagree with Snowolf here, for the following reasons.

Maybe I have misread something, but why would you give a few specific rotation knee movements and then ask the student to make large radius turns? 

As for the flexion and extension, I wouldn't take somebody who does not flex and extend at all, has no dynamic steering movements, and ask them to make cross under turns straight off the bat. That also doesn't make sense at all.


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## pwol (Mar 7, 2011)

Thanks again everyone.

cliffs on what happened today:

- rode with a slight cold / 4 hours of sleep + had to drive 3 hours
- changed my stance width, I felt it was too narrow / had too much setback
- busted my ass hard the first couple of runs due to ^^ and not being used to the stance
- focused mainly on leaning downhill, putting more weight on my front foot, using the front foot to initiate turns, bending knees more, etc. was making good progress 
- on our lunch break I checked this thread and read Snowolf's post... tried digesting as much as I can from it and went back out
- WOW the driving my front knee down to my big toe helped my riding sooo much. I was pushing my shins down into my boot tongue alot more and was leaning/riding so much better. Again, thanks again for writing that detailed response!!
- (a good amount of the time) I felt that distinct feel of the edges actually digging in on both toe/heel side and saw a thin line left behind me

I have SO much more to learn, but felt I moved onto the right track of learning. I rode tons better than what you saw in the video I posted. 

jml22, yeah I figured the speed would take a while to get used to, definitely felt uneasy a couple of times lol. But I was really pushing it and riding faster than I had ever before. 

Today I felt that most of my mistakes came from switching from high (relative to me lol) speed toe side to heel side turns. Im talking about the really wide turns, not the narrow going really fast turns. I think its a combination of 1) not being used to the speed 2) poor body position. I found that I would try slowing down right after the transition, and in doing so would always get a couple of "hops" and catch a little bit of air instead of just smoothly riding on my heelside, resulting in me falling on my ass. I think this is mostly due to riding in the backseat on that transition rather than leaning downhill. 

The last 2-3 hours felt amazing though. I dont think I had a single big fall and really felt the progress I have made. I wish I had video footage of it, but my GoPro grenade grip handle mount thing broke in a fall on my very first run. Hopefully I'll get some next time. I can't wait to get out there again and learn some more!

I went up with 2 friends, one being this chick who took these pics and did that instagram filter bs on em





































lol


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## slyder (Jan 18, 2010)

You are at that point of it "clicking" and taking another step forward. This forum has helped many riders including myself. Keep us updated... and keep riding time on the snow really helps.


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## Sincraft (Sep 6, 2010)

pwol said:


> Just some background info:
> 
> - Vid is from my first day of the season so I'm stiff / rusty / tired from waking up at 5am and driving 3 hours
> - I'm in the red jacket
> ...


what you are doing wrong is, complaining about a 3 hour drive to Killington. It's Killington man. That place is just amazing! I drive 12 hours to get there lol


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## pwol (Mar 7, 2011)

Sincraft said:


> what you are doing wrong is, complaining about a 3 hour drive to Killington. It's Killington man. That place is just amazing! I drive 12 hours to get there lol


Lol, fair enough. I wish I could find some cheap places to stay up there though. Day trips all the time gets a little annoying. 


Hey I just wanted to post a little update...

I went upto Wachusett Mass. last night for some night boarding. It was my first time night boarding and I learned that my goggle lens suck at night, so I rode with my goggles up on my helmet most of the night. 

Anyways, I had a blast out there. Felt the progress in my form and had a lot of fun. The main problem I noticed was just not being used to the speed yet. Idk how accurate the Ski Tracks APP is, but I got several runs in going upto ~34 mph. Idk if thats any fast, but it was for me. I got upto these speeds even on choppy East coast conditions. It felt great bending the knees, getting low, and absorbing all those bumps at those speeds. 

I thought you guys would be proud of this part... towards the end we went on some green trails and decided to ride them switch a couple of times. We were just fooling around but it turned out to be extremely fun. I always neglected switch and never linked any turns switch before. I took everything I learned from this thread and applied it to switch (again, the most notable being the knee to toe / hip drive technique.) I fell a couple of times in the beginning, but picked it up very fast. It made me really focus on the technique and forced me to see all the little things that are going on. Even though it was just on some green trails, I honestly feel I rode switch my first time better than I did regular in that video I posted before. 

Oh and I also did some small 180* jumps for the first time ever, they were at pretty low speeds but I was pretty stoked haha. 

The responses in this thread have been amazing, There's no possible way I would be making so much progress in such little time without you guys. Thanks again for taking the time out to post all the in depth responses to my (and all the other threads on this board) questions. I'm still just getting the hang of everything, and still have so much to learn so I'll be back with more vids and questions. 

I'm going upto Killington sometimes next week, I plan on fixing my GoPro handle by then and hope to get some new footage!


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