# Snowboarding for a few years, still cant carve



## Grizz

Nothing to be embarrassed about. First things first. 

Before you learn how to *carve*, you need to learn how to *turn*. Before you can turn you need to learn how to use your toe side edge. Try side slipping and doing traverses on your toe side. 

It's tough just throwing ideas out without seeing what's really going on. My best recommendation would be for you to get hooked up with a qualified coach who could probably get you linking turns in one lesson. It's money well spent and it sounds like you've struggled for long enough.


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## SnowProRick

We have the full learn to snowboard lesson on video. Those should get you going in the right direction.

As a side note, this is why I don;t like teaching new riders the sideslip, it becomes a crutch so they don't have to learn to turn.

--rick


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## Guest

thats for all the responses guys. To tell you the truth I never even thought about going down the hill doing a side slip toe side (I dont know why not, thats how I learnded heal side). Im going to try and go to a local place twice before heading to CO, hopefully with a little luck I can get that portion down so I dont suck during my trip. 
I looked into lessons at a local place but they were large classes and were for people that dont know how to board at all, so they would spend most of the time going over how to stand up and get on the lift. Any other idea or words of encouragement let me know


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## Grizz

SnowProRick said:


> We have the full learn to snowboard
> As a side note, this is why I don;t like teaching new riders the sideslip, it becomes a crutch so they don't have to learn to turn.
> 
> --rick


Sure, if all they do is sideslip on one edge. Teach them to do it on both edges, and turns come quickly. If they do the transition while standing, they are turning.

If I had ideal teaching terrain I probably wouldn't use it as much. Unfortunately I don't have ideal terrain.

I've heard some areas in the Rockies will fire you for teaching a falling leaf. It sounds a bit extreme and I don't understand the bias.


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## SnowProRick

There are a couple reasons...
1) As I said it becomes a crutch. The rider can get down the hill just fine, so why learn to turn for real. This is especially a problem when lessons are and hour or two with no time to really get to turns. We have areas here whose goal is to get newbies sideslipping and then turn them loose on the rest of us 

2) What is a better run to learn to sideslip, bunny hill or black diamond? Answer is a black diamond, steep hills are much easier to sideslip. So why try to teach a beginner who doesn't have the skills or muscle to do it on a bunny hill? Side slipping flat runs is hard for good riders! It just wears the student out so they are too tired to learn the rest.

J turns - Chairlift - Garlands - C turns - Linking Gives students a really good chance at learning quickly and with less pain (from falling or just muscle fatigue).

--rick


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## baldylox

Good site, Rick but a lot of your content needs editing for clarity.


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## dharmashred

Grizz said:


> Nothing to be embarrassed about.
> 
> Before you learn how to *carve*, you need to learn how to *turn*. Before you can turn you need to learn how to use your toe side edge. Try side slipping and doing traverses on your toe side.
> 
> It's tough just throwing ideas out without seeing what's really going on. My best recommendation would be for you to get hooked up with a qualified coach who could probably get you linking turns in one lesson. It's money well spent and it sounds like you've struggled for long enough.


First things first, like Grizz said. That cheezy adage, gotta crawl before you walk...Gotta turn before you carve...Don't be embarrassed. Every rider struggles at one point or another with something, and I've discovered (from personal experience) that making the transition from heel side to toe side is one of the most difficult things for a newer rider to concquer. I am still working on perfecting my toe side turns now, thanks to Snowolf and the veteran riders here, it's starting to come together, a season later 



Snowolf said:


> Ben Gay for your sore calf muscles......:laugh::laugh::laugh:
> 
> Toe side traverses build huge calf muscles, but starting out is painful. One thing that really helps (both to relieve the burn and to improve your riding) is sink down and rest your shins on the tongues of your boots. As soon as you start doing these, you will know exactly what I mean....


I remember this...I toe side traversed the whole way down Cornice (a very steep black) my second time ever riding. Granted, I had no business up there...it took me 1 1/2 hrs to get to the bottom. Some gentle soul passed by me struggling and told me to just rest on my shins a bit (but also make sure your boot are tight so that when your heel lifts up for the toe edge, that your boot goes with it, otherwise you'll get that heel edge). Saved my ass that day, literally.

The next time, and every time since, I've only heelside traversed the steep once I was comfortable looking down the mountain and how steep it was. I agree, it can become a crutch, I was getting down the hill in good speed, but then when looking at everyone else I realized how ridiculous I looked _and that i'm in the fucking way!!!_. Having the advantage of traversing on both heel and toe, however, does help the transition, you will know exactly how much flex is needed to keep you from catching an edge _and how to parlay those into turns._

I could have saved myself alot of pain and suffering had I taken an additional lesson. BUT, if you don't have access to lessons, it can be done. Snowolf and Rick have some great vids and there is soooo much info here about this, you sound committed to it, so you will do it! I would in no way, be where I am in my riding now without Snowolf, and the support of the other members.

Don't ever be embarrassed about riding, there is nothing wrong at all with being aware of your ability level, e.g. what you can do, what you need to work on, and your desire to improve. Example: Every time we go to Mammoth, I always go to the top, sideslip the steep, then start turning lower down. This trip I decided NOT to go to the top. I think anyone can get down the hill, black, blue, green, whatever, but it's _how_ you get down that matters. I decided I'm not going up there again until I can handle that shit for real! At first I felt like I was bitching out, but I realize there is honor in wanting to improve and do it right! 

Keep reading, watching vids, visualize yourself on the mountain, keep practicing. If you can get a lesson, great, it's for sure the best route - if you can't, don't worry, you can still do it, there is great info/tips/vids and great support here! It can - _and will_ - be done!


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## SnowProRick

cifex said:


> Good site, Rick but a lot of your content needs editing for clarity.


I'm not trying to be a dink, but are you serious??? Of all the issues that one could have with our videos, clarity is pretty low on the list (lots of fan e-mails to back this up). I would really know what exactly you mean. Are you an instructor looking for ultra tech, big words, AASI stuff? Our videos are for normal people who are learning.

I am really curious, please explain...

--rick


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## Grizz

SnowProRick said:


> I'm not trying to be a dink, but are you serious??? Of all the issues that one could have with our videos, clarity is pretty low on the list (lots of fan e-mails to back this up). I would really know what exactly you mean. Are you an instructor looking for ultra tech, big words, AASI stuff? Our videos are for normal people who are learning.
> 
> I am really curious, please explain...
> 
> --rick


Curious myself. Granted, I only watched two but they seemed well scripted and filmed. Your production value is high for a home grown website. You obviously put some time and hard work into the project. Nice job.:thumbsup:


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## baldylox

Yes, I'm serious. I wasn't referring to the videos. They were excellent, as is the format of the content. I mean the way things are described in some of the text seems a bit hazy, even to me and I know what you are describing. (As in when read without the benefit of watching the accompanying videos)

I'm leaving for Denver tomorrow so a bit short on time. When I get back I'll see if I can find a few minutes to more thoroughly explain what I mean. All in all, it's a great resource and I'm glad you spent the time to put it up. I've been having my girlfriend read through it as well.

EDIT: One other thought is that mouseover definitions for 'snowboarding lingo' would be helpful for new riders.

EDIT: Sorry for the drive by comment earlier. It wasn't intended as a stab or hypercritical. Figured you would want input. Knowing what is lacking is usually more helpful than ego stroking.


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## Grizz

Rick,
I think we're going to wind up agreeing to disagree.



SnowProRick said:


> There are a couple reasons...
> 1) As I said it becomes a crutch. The rider can get down the hill just fine, so why learn to turn for real. This is especially a problem when lessons are and hour or two with no time to really get to turns. We have areas here whose goal is to get newbies sideslipping and then turn them loose on the rest of us


I'll agree areas who's only intent is to teach side slipping suck. Where is this happening and why do people buy lessons there? 

I think it's a crutch if they can only do heelside. How often do you see people stuck with only a toe side slip/FL, almost never. If they can do a toe side they can make a linked turn. Teach to the toe and there won't be a crutch issue.

If as you say in two hours we can't really get to turns, what gives them more ability to safely (control over direction and speed) navigate a run, a traverse or directional slip? I'd say slip. One reason we may see this differently is below.




> 2) What is a better run to learn to sideslip, bunny hill or black diamond? Answer is a black diamond, steep hills are much easier to sideslip. So why try to teach a beginner who doesn't have the skills or muscle to do it on a bunny hill? Side slipping flat runs is hard for good riders! It just wears the student out so they are too tired to learn the rest.


Obviously it's easier (and safer) to do a slip on steeper runs. By having more distance between the downhill edge and slope you gain a larger margin of error to avoid slams. This leads into why I think we're seeing this issue differently. It's terrain. 

Watching the "getting up, stopping & traverse video", my first thought was, "that's hero terrain". Flat, wide, and light traffic. I'm jealous. I deal with a "bunny hill" quite a bit steeper and narrower. It's why I focus more on keeping the speed down through a slip than letting it run in a carved traverse like you do in the video. 

I'm not having them slip a flat run. If that's a green in your video ours is probably a blue. If our terrain was similar, my progression would resemble yours.


Two thoughts on this video.

In the traverse segment, It would have been nice to see how you brought the board to a stop instead of cutting away.

After showing ways of getting up but *before* you get to the traverse or garlands, you and Jill give demos. They were used as examples of slowing down/stopping and directionality. In the PNW we have specific names for the two tasks demonstrated.


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## ttchad

I had similar issues when I began. My boots were too big for the board and I never really got a good grasp of heal side turns. I also had a board way too stiff for beginning and it prevented torsional flex. 
-Everytime I tried I would bust my ass because of heel overhang.
-I never took lessons and learned on my own.
Once I took the time to get the right equipment it came to me quick. The great news is you almost have switch riding down which is a PIA for most folks.


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## jlm1976

*It depends*

A wise instructor once told that the only 100% correct answer when it comes to teaching is "it depends". 
I side with Grizz on this.
I think that's definitely true when it comes to beginner snowboard lessons. I've worked at 3 mountains now, and have had to tailor my beginner lesson to the terrain I had available. Two had really good beginner terrain. A nice big, wide consistant pitch where you could do garlands and traverses and nice gently turns(similar to Rick's hero beginner terrain). Here, I didn't really teach sideslip unless a student was having a problem stopping or regulating their edge angle. The mountain I am now has about the worst beginner terrain I've ever seen. The bunny hill is too short, too small and gets progressively steeper as you move up it. The only green run accesible without having to ride blues is narrow, dead flat sometimes and other times boarderline blue pitch. At my new place, I generally need to teach sideslip because we have no room for traverses and garlands. But sometimes people move straight to linking turns so I skip it. 
I will say that I never end with sideslipping, and always have students do it toeside and heelside. 
Long story short, sideslipping is like any other excercise, something instructors can keep in their bag to be used when necessary.


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## dharmashred

Snowolf said:


> Another reason, along with terrain considerations, that I teach slips and linked traverse is because I know that the student is going to go straight to the highest chairlift and try to tackle the blues and blacks before they are really ready. It is simply human nature. I want them to have their "ace on the line" safe way to get themselves down off of something they ought not have been on in the first place. If a person has never side slipped or falling leafed before, on a black with high speed traffic is not the ideal learning environment. So for me, teaching these techniques is also a matter of safety.


Hmm.. This sounds familiar...:laugh::laugh::laugh:


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## Momsboard2

I also had the same problem. I was so frustrated the beginning of this season, I almost quit. I took one hour long lesson (I made sure to research who the good instructors were) and I am beginning to carve heel and toe side after about 5 hours of hill time.


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## Kenai

*Advice 4 years late.*



Momsboard2 said:


> I also had the same problem. I was so frustrated the beginning of this season, I almost quit. I took one hour long lesson (I made sure to research who the good instructors were) and I am beginning to carve heel and toe side after about 5 hours of hill time.


Missed it by that much!


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## Momsboard2

Ha! Well, you never know when someone (like me) Is going to stumble across and read the thread 4 years down the line. ;p


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## Donutz

Common problem with new members, not noticing the dates on the posts. We poke you with a stick a few times, laugh, and that's done. Then the next one comes along...


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## bseracka

We also tend to demand for you use the search function less than other forums... unless you're asking about which board/binding to get, or is x board/binding better than y board/binding.


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## Donutz

bseracka said:


> We also tend to demand for you use the search function less than other forums... unless you're asking about which board/binding to get, or is x board/binding better than y board/binding.


On that subject, hardware can change so much from year to year that I can't really blame people for asking the same question again, unless it's so recent it's still on the New Posts list.


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## CassMT

even if some knowlede seeker lucks upon the right thread, most of them go so completely ot that if they find the nugget of onfo they were after they deserve a prize


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## F1EA




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