# What if I Don't Wax...



## davidj

... my legs, that is .

Ok, kidding aside, ppl on this forum talk about "base damage" if you don't wax your board as needed. What if I pulled a BA (no offense dude ) and decided not to wax my board at all? I don't care if the base looks blue/gray/puke/insert-color-here because of prolonged wax deprivation. Also don't care if I'm a couple of mph slower while charging the mountain. 

I'd like some specifics of "base damage" - something that will compromise the integrity of the board. Otherwise, why should I care?


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## Frozen

I'm curious about this too.

When I got into snowboarding the buddy I rode with had a 6 or 7 year old burton custom that he rode. I asked how often he waxed it or sharpened the edges and he said something along the lines of "I don't do shit". So I haven't either and can honestly say that aside from hitting the occasional "sticky spot" on days with warmer weather I've never really had a problem. Then again I've never waxed my boards either so I don't have a baseline for comparison.

Just wondering if I'm missing out on something by not waxing (board) regularly.


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## ace9213

I went 6-7 days on factory wax. Felt like I was riding through mud. I was catching my edges a lot. It wasn't a good day.


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## Soggysnow

Do you like a fast smooth ride?
A lot of boards are made pretty different to a few years ago too. Sintered bases allow for good absorption of wax and a smooth ride, but you do need to look after them too.
I can definitely feel the difference when my board is freshly waxed. You should treat yourself sometime.


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## bseracka

Extruded bases don't really need to be waxed and don't hold much wax when they are.

Sintered basespreform noticably better when waxed and are designed to hold wax. Sintered bases can burn from friction impairing their ability to hold wax and transfer wax to the surface. A dry sintered base is more susceptable to damage and can crack especially if die-cut


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## budderbear

Wax is probably debatable depending on how fast you like to go, but after a few icy days, or running over rocks you can really see the benefits of doing your edges. Especially when it comes to catching edges.


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## Jed

Honestly waxing makes you go faster, but I don't think it's much of a huge deal for non pros that aren't trying to shave seconds from their boardercross time or get more speed for their freestyle run.

I'd say you're far more likely to break a board before the base dies from lack of wax.

I tend to only wax if I specifically need extra speed for some reason (jump without enough run in, contest etc). Most of the time I don't even notice if I don't wax.

Snow conditions will have far more effect on your speed than waxing.


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## biocmp

Do you all wax brand new boards or do they come prepared to go?


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## Jed

They have factory wax, but factory wax kind of sucks.

With brand new boards I'll give it a hot wax and redo the wax with a nice base wax and blend in some other waxes on top.


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## NWBoarder

You can ride without wax, and it won't hurt your board to much in the long run. However, riding a freshly waxed board is a great feeling. And it's an even better feeling if you waxed it yourself.


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## budderbear

I recommend hertel hot sauce wax, its cheap all temp wax that does a good job, and last about 5 trips before i need another. Unless it was last year, then every trip. :laugh:


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## Bones

You get a smoother ride with a nicely waxed board. Smoother turn initiation, better acceleration out of turns, more consistent glide, etc. I definitely notice when my board needs a wax or has just had one.

The problem with never waxing is that the base abrasion builds up to the point where waxing just won't make it better, you'll need a base grind.

To each their own, but I don't like spending hundred$ on a board only to have less than optimal performance. Kinda like buying your dream car and never changing the oil.


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## Lamps

Wax might be optional but if there's any ice or even hard pack around dull edges sucks and you'll see a huge difference after a sharpening


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## BurtonAvenger

Pretty sure I can beat all you waxing fanboys on an extruded base that hasn't seen wax since the day it was rolled across the belt waxer at the factory. 

Unless you're some pro fucking down hill slalom racer none of you and I mean NONE of you notice any difference that isn't there inside your head.


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## duh

People that tell you not to wax are trying to keep you slow (so they can get to the powder first.) A good wax job is very noticeable, and not just to proslalomblablaangryblas. I'll take you up on that race any time you want to lose, and you will, everytime.


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## davidj

BurtonAvenger said:


> Pretty sure I can beat all you waxing fanboys on an extruded base that hasn't seen wax since the day it was rolled across the belt waxer at the factory.
> 
> Unless you're some pro fucking down hill slalom racer none of you and I mean NONE of you notice any difference that isn't there inside your head.


Heh heh, there you have it, folks. Mods, you may shut this thread down now.


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## ig88

budderbear said:


> I recommend hertel hot sauce wax, its cheap all temp wax that does a good job, and last about 5 trips before i need another. Unless it was last year, then every trip. :laugh:


How many days are there in each of your average trip?


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## cav0011

The only time I ever notice wax jobs are when I am on excessively long flats. I do was though, mostly because i "believe" it keeps the board in better shape longer, and I hate getting stuck on flats.


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## budderbear

cav0011 said:


> The only time I ever notice wax jobs are when I am on excessively long flats. I do was though, mostly because i "believe" it keeps the board in better shape longer, and I hate getting stuck on flats.


Yeah, getting through the lower parts of breck is a lot easier with some wax. :laugh:


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## Soggysnow

davidj said:


> Heh heh, there you have it, folks. Mods, you may shut this thread down now.


Hahaah There was a day where my board stuck to the snow because it was dry, I could have put a cold day wax on it and had a great day. I literally could not move. There were ppl wizzing by. So down the hill I went, waxed up for the next cold weather day and was fine.

I am not a pro, but I do ride 100+ days a year. Pretty sure I notice a difference. But as some others have said. Wax is more for the weather/snow conditions more than anything.


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## herzogone

During the winter that wasn’t I did quite a bit of reading on this subject, and there seems to be some confusion persistent here.

First let me state that sintered P-Tex, or UHMWPE, is a pretty awesome material for the purposes of snowboard bases. It has very low friction, doesn’t really absorb moisture, resists impacts, and is incredibly abrasion resistant (10 times more than carbon steel).

The idea that sintered bases are porous and absorb wax like a sponge is a myth (or at best a “poor” analogy). UHMWPE consists of crystalline lamellae and amorphous (disordered) regions. The crystalline lamellae are the ordered regions that give the P-Tex the whitish, dry appearance (sometimes incorrectly called “oxidation”). Wax simply binds to the surface, filling the amorphous regions and binding the lamellae. Wax does generally measurably increase the hydrophobicity of the surface, which improves glide on snow (as everyone with a freshly waxed board has no doubt experienced to some degree).

Interestingly, Leonid Kuzmin’s PhD thesis “Interfacial Kinetic Ski Friction” demonstrates that it is even possible to produce a lower friction surface on UHMWPE without any wax, through structuring alone. I know he has been widely criticized on the internet, but based on the critiques given I think few of those people actually bothered to read his thesis. I read it in its entirety. He simply demonstrates that it is possible to get optimal glide without wax, if the surface is correctly structured. This does not mean simply not waxing is faster. In fact, he clearly shows that an unwaxed stone ground base is slower than a waxed base (as everyone has experienced). His findings are really about showing that wax is not necessary if a different structuring technique is used in place of stone grinding. Unfortunately for us, I think his method only readily applies to edgeless cross-country skis, since it involves scraping the base with a steel scraper (also, personally, I have no desire to sacrifice base material in the name of performance).

For my own views on the original post, I’m with BA on waxing. That is, I don’t do it anymore. I didn’t wax all last season and noticed no detrimental effects, aside from a little less glide in the flats. I’ve haven't experienced any increase in unpredictability on snow or jibs. The only time I might even still consider waxing is during spring mashed-potato snow, but last season here on the ice coast we pretty much missed that altogether. I used to wax every few days on the snow, but I found it didn’t last long. My advice is, unless you’re a die-hard racer, give a try to going waxless. It won’t do any damage and you may save yourself a bit of money, hassle, and even reduce potential health/environmental risks from PFCs. On the latter point, if you do prefer to wax, consider a PFC-free wax if possible.


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## Rookie09

herzogone said:


> During the winter that wasn’t I did quite a bit of reading on this subject, and there seems to be some confusion persistent here.
> 
> First let me state that sintered P-Tex, or UHMWPE, is a pretty awesome material for the purposes of snowboard bases. It has very low friction, doesn’t really absorb moisture, resists impacts, and is incredibly abrasion resistant (10 times more than carbon steel).
> 
> The idea that sintered bases are porous and absorb wax like a sponge is a myth (or at best a “poor” analogy). UHMWPE consists of crystalline lamellae and amorphous (disordered) regions. The crystalline lamellae are the ordered regions that give the P-Tex the whitish, dry appearance (sometimes incorrectly called “oxidation”). Wax simply binds to the surface, filling the amorphous regions and binding the lamellae. Wax does generally measurably increase the hydrophobicity of the surface, which improves glide on snow (as everyone with a freshly waxed board has no doubt experienced to some degree).
> 
> Interestingly, Leonid Kuzmin’s PhD thesis “Interfacial Kinetic Ski Friction” demonstrates that it is even possible to produce a lower friction surface on UHMWPE without any wax, through structuring alone. I know he has been widely criticized on the internet, but based on the critiques given I think few of those people actually bothered to read his thesis. I read it in its entirety. He simply demonstrates that it is possible to get optimal glide without wax, if the surface is correctly structured. This does not mean simply not waxing is faster. In fact, he clearly shows that an unwaxed stone ground base is slower than a waxed base (as everyone has experienced). His findings are really about showing that wax is not necessary if a different structuring technique is used in place of stone grinding. Unfortunately for us, I think his method only readily applies to edgeless cross-country skis, since it involves scraping the base with a steel scraper (also, personally, I have no desire to sacrifice base material in the name of performance).
> 
> For my own views on the original post, I’m with BA on waxing. That is, I don’t do it anymore. I didn’t wax all last season and noticed no detrimental effects, aside from a little less glide in the flats. I’ve haven't experienced any increase in unpredictability on snow or jibs. The only time I might even still consider waxing is during spring mashed-potato snow, but last season here on the ice coast we pretty much missed that altogether. I used to wax every few days on the snow, but I found it didn’t last long. My advice is, unless you’re a die-hard racer, give a try to going waxless. It won’t do any damage and you may save yourself a bit of money, hassle, and even reduce potential health/environmental risks from PFCs. On the latter point, if you do prefer to wax, consider a PFC-free wax if possible.


What are the consequences of not waxing? Only that I might go slightly slower? Or will the base dry out and crack etc. BTW I ride a K2 Parkstar with a 4000 sintered base if that makes any difference.


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## biocmp

herzogone said:


> During the winter that wasn’t I did quite a bit of reading on this subject, and there seems to be some confusion persistent here.
> 
> First let me state that sintered P-Tex, or UHMWPE, is a pretty awesome material for the purposes of snowboard bases. It has very low friction, doesn’t really absorb moisture, resists impacts, and is incredibly abrasion resistant (10 times more than carbon steel).
> 
> The idea that sintered bases are porous and absorb wax like a sponge is a myth (or at best a “poor” analogy). UHMWPE consists of crystalline lamellae and amorphous (disordered) regions. The crystalline lamellae are the ordered regions that give the P-Tex the whitish, dry appearance (sometimes incorrectly called “oxidation”). Wax simply binds to the surface, filling the amorphous regions and binding the lamellae. Wax does generally measurably increase the hydrophobicity of the surface, which improves glide on snow (as everyone with a freshly waxed board has no doubt experienced to some degree).
> 
> Interestingly, Leonid Kuzmin’s PhD thesis “Interfacial Kinetic Ski Friction” demonstrates that it is even possible to produce a lower friction surface on UHMWPE without any wax, through structuring alone. I know he has been widely criticized on the internet, but based on the critiques given I think few of those people actually bothered to read his thesis. I read it in its entirety. He simply demonstrates that it is possible to get optimal glide without wax, if the surface is correctly structured. This does not mean simply not waxing is faster. In fact, he clearly shows that an unwaxed stone ground base is slower than a waxed base (as everyone has experienced). His findings are really about showing that wax is not necessary if a different structuring technique is used in place of stone grinding. Unfortunately for us, I think his method only readily applies to edgeless cross-country skis, since it involves scraping the base with a steel scraper (also, personally, I have no desire to sacrifice base material in the name of performance).
> 
> For my own views on the original post, I’m with BA on waxing. That is, I don’t do it anymore. I didn’t wax all last season and noticed no detrimental effects, aside from a little less glide in the flats. I’ve haven't experienced any increase in unpredictability on snow or jibs. The only time I might even still consider waxing is during spring mashed-potato snow, but last season here on the ice coast we pretty much missed that altogether. I used to wax every few days on the snow, but I found it didn’t last long. My advice is, unless you’re a die-hard racer, give a try to going waxless. It won’t do any damage and you may save yourself a bit of money, hassle, and even reduce potential health/environmental risks from PFCs. On the latter point, if you do prefer to wax, consider a PFC-free wax if possible.


Where do you read these papers? What structure does he advocate? a lattice of sorts? Are there any experimental materials being used?


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## herzogone

Rookie09 said:


> What are the consequences of not waxing? Only that I might go slightly slower? Or will the base dry out and crack etc. BTW I ride a K2 Parkstar with a 4000 sintered base if that makes any difference.


Just that you might go slightly slower. It will not damage it. The "dry" appearance is simply the normal appearance of the base material without wax.


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## BurtonAvenger

Bingo dude nailed it. Structure sure that makes sense wax eh you're not going to notice it. My friends that are pro opening day at Breck were talking about how they waxed the night before so they could clear the jumps, dudes were making it to the knuckle I was taking it to flat every time unless I drastically speed checked. 

The only time I wax anymore is if I'm trying to remove sludge from the base of my board like when I go to Bear.


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## snowklinger

BurtonAvenger said:


> The only time I wax anymore is if I'm trying to remove sludge from the base of my board like when I go to Bear.


Don't lie we've all see you with your bucket spackling sludge into your bases.


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## davidj

herzogone said:


> During the winter that wasn’t I did quite a bit of reading on this subject, and there seems to be some confusion persistent here.
> 
> First let me state that sintered P-Tex, or UHMWPE, is a pretty awesome material for the purposes of snowboard bases. It has very low friction, doesn’t really absorb moisture, resists impacts, and is incredibly abrasion resistant (10 times more than carbon steel).
> 
> The idea that sintered bases are porous and absorb wax like a sponge is a myth (or at best a “poor” analogy). UHMWPE consists of crystalline lamellae and amorphous (disordered) regions. The crystalline lamellae are the ordered regions that give the P-Tex the whitish, dry appearance (sometimes incorrectly called “oxidation”). Wax simply binds to the surface, filling the amorphous regions and binding the lamellae. Wax does generally measurably increase the hydrophobicity of the surface, which improves glide on snow (as everyone with a freshly waxed board has no doubt experienced to some degree).
> 
> Interestingly, Leonid Kuzmin’s PhD thesis “Interfacial Kinetic Ski Friction” demonstrates that it is even possible to produce a lower friction surface on UHMWPE without any wax, through structuring alone. I know he has been widely criticized on the internet, but based on the critiques given I think few of those people actually bothered to read his thesis. I read it in its entirety. He simply demonstrates that it is possible to get optimal glide without wax, if the surface is correctly structured. This does not mean simply not waxing is faster. In fact, he clearly shows that an unwaxed stone ground base is slower than a waxed base (as everyone has experienced). His findings are really about showing that wax is not necessary if a different structuring technique is used in place of stone grinding. Unfortunately for us, I think his method only readily applies to edgeless cross-country skis, since it involves scraping the base with a steel scraper (also, personally, I have no desire to sacrifice base material in the name of performance).
> 
> For my own views on the original post, I’m with BA on waxing. That is, I don’t do it anymore. I didn’t wax all last season and noticed no detrimental effects, aside from a little less glide in the flats. I’ve haven't experienced any increase in unpredictability on snow or jibs. The only time I might even still consider waxing is during spring mashed-potato snow, but last season here on the ice coast we pretty much missed that altogether. I used to wax every few days on the snow, but I found it didn’t last long. My advice is, unless you’re a die-hard racer, give a try to going waxless. It won’t do any damage and you may save yourself a bit of money, hassle, and even reduce potential health/environmental risks from PFCs. On the latter point, if you do prefer to wax, consider a PFC-free wax if possible.


:thumbsup::thumbsup:


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## herzogone

biocmp said:


> Where do you read these papers? What structure does he advocate? a lattice of sorts? Are there any experimental materials being used?


The underlined portions in my post are links to several of them.  Here's one more: Friction characteristics between ski base and ice and here is Kuzmin's thesis, just for convenience. It details the structures he found most effective (it has been too long since I read it for me to recall the details) and he also analyzes P-Tex with additives like graphite and PTFE.




BurtonAvenger said:


> Bingo dude nailed it. Structure sure that makes sense wax eh you're not going to notice it. My friends that are pro opening day at Breck were talking about how they waxed the night before so they could clear the jumps, dudes were making it to the knuckle I was taking it to flat every time unless I drastically speed checked.
> 
> The only time I wax anymore is if I'm trying to remove sludge from the base of my board like when I go to Bear.





davidj said:


> :thumbsup::thumbsup:


Thanks guys :thumbsup:


Also, in the interest of completeness, I forgot to add that the same general characteristics apply to extruded bases as well, since they are the same basic material (UHMWPE), just a little softer form due to manufacturing technique.


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## Rookie09

Is it still good to wax once before the season starts or is it really not required at all? And how does this fit with people who say that if you don't wax your board much the pores start to close up and it can't hold wax anymore.


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## Rookie09

Snowolf said:


> Great info. Thanks for sharing. I used to be a "waxing fanboy" too but in recent years have moderated my stance on the issue. For awhile now I have maintained that waxing need is really predicated on weather and snow conditions. Your research seems to back that position up.
> 
> Here in the PNW where we have warm, wet snow (Cascade Cement we call it) because of the high water content in our snow (average 8" of snow for 1" of moisture), wax definitely does make a difference here that you can feel ( despite BA's feeding me that bag of mushrooms last time).
> 
> Your research seems to back this up as well. More than the actual wax, I believe it is the high Flouro contact we use around here for the water reppelency. In spring and summer, we ride a lot on volcanoes and dust is a major issue. As a result a very popular wax here is OBJ Black Magic with graphite. The theory being (as I understand it) is this combats the added friction of the dust on the snow surface. I again feel the difference when I am riding off of the actual 11,254 foot summit of Mt. Hood on a hot summer day.
> 
> 90% of East coast riders with their shit snow don't benefit much at all from waxing. Additionally, the cold dry conditions of the Rockies I suspect limits any performance benefit. But if you ride in this slop we all love in the PNW, you might want throw a coat of wax on!
> 
> Your research also touches upon the value of structuring. I am a huge fanboy of this and I have all of my boards structured. It makes your base look and feel like fine Courdoroy with the grooves running longitudinally to help channel water. This far more than waxing improves your glide in off piste conditions in our snow. Waxing can be a good substitute for a structured base though if you brush after scraping. Using a stiff nylon brush and aggressively brushing longitudinally down the length of the board will create thousands of micro channel grooves that allows water to channel out from under your base. This is very similar to the way a so called "aqua tread" pattern on a car tire works to prevent hydroplaning on wet pavement.


According to this, would you say wax is more or less useful for riders in the midwest (Minnesota, to be specific)? And do all sintered bases come structured? How often do you have to "restructure" them? And is that the same thing as getting a base grind? Thanks!


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## CheeseForSteeze

Waxing definitely seems to help when the moisture content in the snow is higher but once it gets really high, even graphite wax won't do much. Structuring is awesome for not keeping speed in wet granular or slush but if you ride enough, you'd have to get a stonegrind done quite often which is $$$$.

I had a Westmark (rocket base, sintered) in the shop last year to get filled and ground and I rode my second Westmark for that day which was factory brand new. It was a huge difference riding the new board. But then when I got my old board back, it was just as fast as the new one.

You will definitely notice a difference when moisture content goes up and if you board is really devoid of wax. Otherwise, if there's no moisture, it won't make as much difference.

The snow out East has quite a bit of moisture in it so when the sun hits it even with really cold air temps, it actually can help to have a decent waxing done even if it's just a one and done with an all-temp and no scraping or tuning.

And I don't think it's going to help at all against base damage. Base damage is almost exclusively caused by rocks, sticks and what have you. Wax won't stop that.


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## poutanen

herzogone said:


> For my own views on the original post, I’m with BA on waxing. That is, I don’t do it anymore. I didn’t wax all last season and noticed no detrimental effects, aside from a little less glide in the flats.


But that's where you need it most. Of course wax won't make much of a difference when you're carving and your base is on a 30 degree angle to the snow, but when I hit the flats the last thing I want to do is have to work hard to get through it, or *gasp* unbuckle.

Of course riding flats effectively is 90% technique 10% board, but I will keep waxing even if that's the only time I ever need it.

I might sound crazy but I actually like to wax. It's sort of a ritual for me. Pre-season, in the hotel on a trip, some weeknight when I'm going out that weekend. It's all part of the fun. I'm not going to cry if I don't wax every 4-5 days out, but I try not to let it get beyond 10.


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## snowklinger

poutanen said:


> I might sound crazy but I actually like to wax. It's sort of a ritual for me. Pre-season, in the hotel on a trip, some weeknight when I'm going out that weekend. It's all part of the fun. I'm not going to cry if I don't wax every 4-5 days out, but I try not to let it get beyond 10.


Yea I wax way more than I need to, and am convinced that its not necessary, but I like to rub my hands on my boards when I'm not riding it. My waxing gear is next to the lawn chair and various smoking apparatus in my mancave, and the smell of hot wax just goes so well.


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## ThunderChunky

Waxing is only gonna make you faster in the flats and accelerate from a dead stop quicker.


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## herzogone

Rookie09 said:


> Is it still good to wax once before the season starts or is it really not required at all? And how does this fit with people who say that if you don't wax your board much the pores start to close up and it can't hold wax anymore.


Again, wax is definitely not required at all, but it can help your board slide a little easier, especially in some conditions. It really is just a matter of personal preference. As for the notion that the "pores" in your board will close up if you don't wax?  That's a fresh load of BS to me, given that the base doesn't truly have "pores" (see my earlier post). You can always wax your board later if you want, it will adhere as long as it is done properly.



Rookie09 said:


> According to this, would you say wax is more or less useful for riders in the midwest (Minnesota, to be specific)? And do all sintered bases come structured? How often do you have to "restructure" them? And is that the same thing as getting a base grind? Thanks!


I'll let someone from that area answer your first question. As far as I know, most sintered bases usually come stone-ground and waxed, not structured. Structuring is patterned texturing of the base, and can be done in different patterns for different conditions (see Snowolf's post). 



Snowolf said:


> Great info. Thanks for sharing. I used to be a "waxing fanboy" too but in recent years have moderated my stance on the issue. For awhile now I have maintained that waxing need is really predicated on weather and snow conditions. Your research seems to back that position up.
> 
> Here in the PNW where we have warm, wet snow (Cascade Cement we call it) because of the high water content in our snow (average 8" of snow for 1" of moisture), wax definitely does make a difference here that you can feel ( despite BA's feeding me that bag of mushrooms last time).
> 
> Your research seems to back this up as well. More than the actual wax, I believe it is the high Flouro contact we use around here for the water reppelency. In spring and summer, we ride a lot on volcanoes and dust is a major issue. As a result a very popular wax here is OBJ Black Magic with graphite. The theory being (as I understand it) is this combats the added friction of the dust on the snow surface. I again feel the difference when I am riding off of the actual 11,254 foot summit of Mt. Hood on a hot summer day.
> 
> 90% of East coast riders with their shit snow don't benefit much at all from waxing. Additionally, the cold dry conditions of the Rockies I suspect limits any performance benefit. But if you ride in this slop we all love in the PNW, you might want throw a coat of wax on!
> 
> Your research also touches upon the value of structuring. I am a huge fanboy of this and I have all of my boards structured. It makes your base look and feel like fine Courdoroy with the grooves running longitudinally to help channel water. This far more than waxing improves your glide in off piste conditions in our snow. Waxing can be a good substitute for a structured base though if you brush after scraping. Using a stiff nylon brush and aggressively brushing longitudinally down the length of the board will create thousands of micro channel grooves that allows water to channel out from under your base. This is very similar to the way a so called "aqua tread" pattern on a car tire works to prevent hydroplaning on wet pavement.


Thanks Snowolf, good points. I'll confess I hadn't really given much thought to the fact that you guys in the PNW get much stickier snow much more of the time. Sadly, my only visits to that area were in the days before I discovered snowboarding, but I've heard it's a bit similar to the mashed-potato snow we sometimes get in early spring, which I will admit is the primary time I would still consider waxing. I should also clarify that my comments regarding not waxing were really aimed at the guys that are waxing just because someone told them it's what you're supposed to do, without properly understanding why. It seems like some people worry that if they don't wax, their board will spontaneously delaminate and their puppy will be murdered.




poutanen said:


> But that's where you need it most. Of course wax won't make much of a difference when you're carving and your base is on a 30 degree angle to the snow, but when I hit the flats the last thing I want to do is have to work hard to get through it, or *gasp* unbuckle.
> 
> Of course riding flats effectively is 90% technique 10% board, but I will keep waxing even if that's the only time I ever need it.
> 
> I might sound crazy but I actually like to wax. It's sort of a ritual for me. Pre-season, in the hotel on a trip, some weeknight when I'm going out that weekend. It's all part of the fun. I'm not going to cry if I don't wax every 4-5 days out, but I try not to let it get beyond 10.


I definitely agree that flats are where I can most appreciate the added glide from waxing, I just find that in the conditions I ride most, the little bit of extra glide (for a few runs) is not worth the time and effort of waxing. Ultimately though, it's a matter of preference, and I respect that you and others find the added glide worth the effort.


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## IdahoFreshies

BurtonAvenger said:


> Pretty sure I can beat all you waxing fanboys on an extruded base that hasn't seen wax since the day it was rolled across the belt waxer at the factory.
> 
> Unless you're some pro fucking down hill slalom racer none of you and I mean NONE of you notice any difference that isn't there inside your head.


I am going to call all of the horse shit on this one, I certainly can tell a difference in my board smoothness and speed after a good wax compared to 4 trips up with no wax. 

I have always figured waxing the base protects it, keeps it moisturized, fill in all of the little cracks and gouges, and keep it from wearing down so fast.


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## BurtonAvenger

IdahoFreshies said:


> I am going to call all of the horse shit on this one, I certainly can tell a difference in my board smoothness and speed after a good wax compared to 4 trips up with no wax.
> 
> I have always figured waxing the base protects it, keeps it moisturized, fill in all of the little cracks and gouges, and keep it from wearing down so fast.


Call it all you want science already proved what I know.

That friction and slowness you're feeling is probably base burn which means you should just go have some structure put in. 

You know what I'm going to do opening day? I'm going to slap some bindings on a deck I rode over 70 days that hasn't seen wax since it hit the belt waxer at Elan. I'm going to go ride and get down the hill just as fast as everyone else. Poor craftsman blames his tools.


----------



## IdahoFreshies

BurtonAvenger said:


> Call it all you want science already proved what I know.
> 
> That friction and slowness you're feeling is probably base burn which means you should just go have some structure put in.
> 
> You know what I'm going to do opening day? I'm going to slap some bindings on a deck I rode over 70 days that hasn't seen wax since it hit the belt waxer at Elan. I'm going to go ride and get down the hill just as fast as everyone else. Poor craftsman blames his tools.


Cool. Im going to still do what I know works for me


----------



## BurtonAvenger

Eh go for it I'll continue to state the truth and refer to it as psychological what the difference is.


----------



## john doe

I wax my board often and I do notice a difference from when I slack for a while. Though it should be noted that I ride midwest fake snow/ice pellets. I also run 400 grit sandpaper over my base every few times I wax to structure it. That could be making the difference alone.



BurtonAvenger said:


> Eh go for it I'll continue to state the truth and refer to it as psychological what the difference is.


I think you've stumbled into a good topic for one of your tech articles. Set up a blind test with identical set ups. Both structured as you like. One waxed and one not. Might take a little doing but it will certainly be interesting.


----------



## snowklinger

john doe said:


> I think you've stumbled into a good topic for one of your tech articles. Set up a blind test with identical set ups. Both structured as you like. One waxed and one not. Might take a little doing but it will certainly be interesting.


I bet we could get TT to snowboard blindfolded with a helmet cam.


----------



## Lamps

BurtonAvenger said:


> Eh go for it I'll continue to state the truth and refer to it as psychological what the difference is.


would you say that even on the flats with wet snow wax makes no difference - that it's all about structure in the base?


----------



## SnowOwl

BurtonAvenger said:


> Eh go for it I'll continue to state the truth and refer to it as psychological what the difference is.


Idk. my friend had a 2 season old Skate banana that hadn't seen any wax but from the factory. I begged him to let me wax it just amuse myself at least, because he didn't think it would make a difference. After the first run he literally hugged me thanking me saying what a huge difference it was, he never felt his board move as smoothly as it did that day, on the flats, jibs, etc. Keep in mind he didn't believe in wax either...so where is the psychology there?


----------



## ShredLife

there is so much bullshit and misinformation in this thread it is ridiculous.


----------



## backstop13

ShredLife said:


> there is so much bullshit and misinformation in this thread it is ridiculous.


so what's the truth? not being a dick, I just honestly don't know what to believe.

I'm riding man-made snow, so I doubt wax is going to make a difference. My only question is, would waxing often protect the base from wear longer? obviously, it's going to wear out over time like anything, but would waxing prolong the life of the base (sintered)?


----------



## ShredLife

you don't wax to protect the life of your board. a thin layer of wax will not protect plastic.

you wax to go faster. if it didn't work then racers wouldn't waste so much time, tech, and money on it. race courses do not go thru flats.

on pow days in the PNW it for sure makes a difference and that's all i really care about. 

on man-made snow i probably wouldn't bother with it but on pow or packed pow for sure.


----------



## backstop13

ShredLife said:


> you don't wax to protect the life of your board. a thin layer of wax will not protect plastic.
> 
> you wax to go faster. if it didn't work then racers wouldn't waste so much time, tech, and money on it. race courses do not go thru flats.
> 
> on pow days in the PNW it for sure makes a difference and that's all i really care about.
> 
> on man-made snow i probably wouldn't bother with it but on pow or packed pow for sure.


makes sense to me.

Thanks man.


----------



## ShredLife

BurtonAvenger said:


> My friends that are pro opening day at Breck were talking about how they waxed the night before so they could clear the jumps, dudes were making it to the knuckle I was taking it to flat every time unless I drastically speed checked.


oh you so pro bro... :laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:


----------



## KIRKRIDER

I had the feeling for a while that waxing was just a piece of info-marketing that worked really well, and noticed a difference in speed only on flats, on a slushy day. 
That said, I love to wax my boards the night before a powder day...it's just a ritual of love.

Zardoz no- wax works really well too on slush...but I'm worried that it could bee too toxic. Any info on that?




herzogone said:


> During the winter that wasn’t I did quite a bit of reading on this subject, and there seems to be some confusion persistent here.
> 
> First let me state that sintered P-Tex, or UHMWPE, is a pretty awesome material for the purposes of snowboard bases. It has very low friction, doesn’t really absorb moisture, resists impacts, and is incredibly abrasion resistant (10 times more than carbon steel).
> 
> The idea that sintered bases are porous and absorb wax like a sponge is a myth (or at best a “poor” analogy). UHMWPE consists of crystalline lamellae and amorphous (disordered) regions. The crystalline lamellae are the ordered regions that give the P-Tex the whitish, dry appearance (sometimes incorrectly called “oxidation”). Wax simply binds to the surface, filling the amorphous regions and binding the lamellae. Wax does generally measurably increase the hydrophobicity of the surface, which improves glide on snow (as everyone with a freshly waxed board has no doubt experienced to some degree).
> 
> Interestingly, Leonid Kuzmin’s PhD thesis “Interfacial Kinetic Ski Friction” demonstrates that it is even possible to produce a lower friction surface on UHMWPE without any wax, through structuring alone. I know he has been widely criticized on the internet, but based on the critiques given I think few of those people actually bothered to read his thesis. I read it in its entirety. He simply demonstrates that it is possible to get optimal glide without wax, if the surface is correctly structured. This does not mean simply not waxing is faster. In fact, he clearly shows that an unwaxed stone ground base is slower than a waxed base (as everyone has experienced). His findings are really about showing that wax is not necessary if a different structuring technique is used in place of stone grinding. Unfortunately for us, I think his method only readily applies to edgeless cross-country skis, since it involves scraping the base with a steel scraper (also, personally, I have no desire to sacrifice base material in the name of performance).
> 
> For my own views on the original post, I’m with BA on waxing. That is, I don’t do it anymore. I didn’t wax all last season and noticed no detrimental effects, aside from a little less glide in the flats. I’ve haven't experienced any increase in unpredictability on snow or jibs. The only time I might even still consider waxing is during spring mashed-potato snow, but last season here on the ice coast we pretty much missed that altogether. I used to wax every few days on the snow, but I found it didn’t last long. My advice is, unless you’re a die-hard racer, give a try to going waxless. It won’t do any damage and you may save yourself a bit of money, hassle, and even reduce potential health/environmental risks from PFCs. On the latter point, if you do prefer to wax, consider a PFC-free wax if possible.


----------



## SnowOwl

KIRKRIDER said:


> I had the feeling for a while that waxing was just a piece of info-marketing that worked really well, and noticed a difference in speed only on flats, on a slushy day.
> That said, I love to wax my boards the night before a powder day...it's just a ritual of love.
> 
> Zardoz no- wax works really well too on slush...but I'm worried that it could bee too toxic. Any info on that?


On your quote, the part about saving money, you can re use scrapped off wax!


----------



## KIRKRIDER

tylerkat89 said:


> On your quote, the part about saving money, you can re use scrapped off wax!




Thanks..I did that too...but it's not that wax is expensive...it's just that is basically useless...again unless it's a slushy day...or you're racing.

that said there's no way I'm going to give up waxing...as I said I enjoy it...as I enjoy doing my edges, setting up whatever I'm riding..and so on.


----------



## SnowOwl

KIRKRIDER said:


> Thanks..I did that too...but it's not that wax is expensive...it's just that is basically useless...again unless it's a slushy day...or you're racing.
> 
> that said there's no way I'm going to give up waxing...as I said I enjoy it...as I enjoy doing my edges, setting up whatever I'm riding..and so on.


Where do you ride at locally here in CA?


----------



## jdang307

tylerkat89 said:


> Where do you ride at locally here in CA?


He rides Kirkwood (hence the name). Tahoe.


----------



## SnowOwl

jdang307 said:


> He rides Kirkwood (hence the name). Tahoe.


duh lol haven't heard of it though


----------



## jdang307

A favorite for the off the beaten path boarders. A little far from the lake.


----------



## KIRKRIDER

5 years season pass and counting...




tylerkat89 said:


> duh lol haven't heard of it though


----------



## herzogone

KIRKRIDER said:


> I had the feeling for a while that waxing was just a piece of info-marketing that worked really well, and noticed a difference in speed only on flats, on a slushy day.
> That said, I love to wax my boards the night before a powder day...it's just a ritual of love.
> 
> Zardoz no- wax works really well too on slush...but I'm worried that it could bee too toxic. Any info on that?


Well, I'm not a chemist, and my understanding of the distinctions of different PFCs (perfluorinated chemicals) is very limited, but I think Zardoz NOTwax sounds reasonably safe since they actually make that claim. They state that it is perfluoropolyalkylether (PFPAE), which does not appear to be one of the specific dangerous PFCs called out in the Scientific American article. Actually, the stuff sounds interesting, I wasn't aware of it, thanks for sharing. I'll have to do more reading.


----------



## ETM

I wax and I notice it. When it needs another wax I can feel it, and as people have said the first place you will notice it is on a flat runout, if you were on 30+ degree slopes all day you would rarely need wax as gravity is helping you get down fast. 
I can even be riding and think to myself that heel side is getting a bit sticky, look at the base and sure enough the heel side looks white, go wax the board and its problem solved.
To listen to some in this thread what I am experiencing is some kind of delusional mind trick engineered by the wax makers. Im not that dumb, I wax when I can tell it needs it and for me that happens to be around very 5 days or so.


----------



## shitty shredder

So I have a new theory based on some recent unscientific experimenting.

The reason wax feels faster is because you waxed previously. Wax picks up gunk and makes you slow. So you need to wax again to get rid of that gunk. 

That's why people can say they never wax at all and feel no difference, and others say there is a huge difference if you go too long without waxing. Both are correct.

If you go waxless and use your edges a lot, you'll notice that your edges don't accumulate that white film after a few days. Some people think that this means your base is dry and you need to wax. This makes no sense, because it scratches off and leaves a film of gunk on your fingernail. It's that gunk that is slowing you down and requiring you to get another wax.


----------



## dave785

shitty shredder said:


> So I have a new theory based on some recent unscientific experimenting.
> 
> The reason wax feels faster is because you waxed previously. Wax picks up gunk and makes you slow. So you need to wax again to get rid of that gunk.
> 
> That's why people can say they never wax at all and feel no difference, and others say there is a huge difference if you go too long without waxing. Both are correct.
> 
> If you go waxless and use your edges a lot, you'll notice that your edges don't accumulate that white film after a few days. Some people think that this means your base is dry and you need to wax. This makes no sense, because it scratches off and leaves a film of gunk on your fingernail. It's that gunk that is slowing you down and requiring you to get another wax.


That makes a lot of sense.

However, the problem with not waxing is that the gouges in your board will be the only things channeling water when you're flatbasing. If all of your gouges are tip to tail gouges then you'll be fine... it's the horizontal gouges that'll slow you down.

What wax does is fill in the horizontal gouges. Then you HAVE to go over it with a stiff nylon brush *tip to tail*. That'll open up a ton of micro channels that are moving in the direction you want the board to move.

In other words, you want all of your grooves on the board to be tip to tail so that everything gets channeled tip to tail.. 

Tires have a similar principle but they're trying to accomplish the opposite of what we are. Tires WANT traction, suction, friction, etc. That's why the more "winter" or "all weather" the tire is, the more noticeable the horizontal grooves are. We want LESS friction, not more. If you have a ton of heelside stops and pick up some rocks while you're doing it then you need the wax to build in some vertical grooves and get rid of the horizontal ones. IF all you do is fill in the scratches with the wax and have a perfectly flat base then you'll have too much suction.. .there won't be anywhere for the water/snow to go. Although to be fair, the point of "scraping" the wax is that you'll naturally get some vertical grooves at the ends of your scraper. (that's why you always scrape from tip to tail).

Waxing without using a brush afterwards will absolutely slow you down because it'll create suction. Suction is the enemy. It's worst when things are slushy because the water can cause suction much more readily than the snow can. 

If you're on an unwaxed base that doesn't have any horizontal gashes then you're fine, especially if it's a higher end base that already has micro channels built into it. 

Some sintered bases don't come with any microchannels built in or ground in.. so you'll need to add wax and then add in the channels yourself with a brush. 

Disclaimer: this is knowledge from my skiing, not snowboarding, but I imagine that for snowboarding it would be even more true considering the increased surface area.


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## Trabi75

What will happen? Probably the same thing that happens with all the boarders and skiers I pass on cat tracks and everywhere else

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## Alpine Duke

I'm reading through this thread seeing all of the posts by guys with 1000 posts and I kept saying.."who is he" and then another an another...then I saw the date on 6 of the 7 pages of this post. Ahh...now I understand.  A thread resurrection eh?

Interesting read though.


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## Fielding

Consider: alpine and Nordic skiers have been using wax of some sort for almost 100 years. The U.S. Army issues wax to its mountain divisions. Wax works. It improves slip over snow and it protects gear. Not waxing (a sintered base) is kinda like not packing bearings with grease.


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## KIRKRIDER

davidj said:


> ... my legs, that is .
> 
> Ok, kidding aside, ppl on this forum talk about "base damage" if you don't wax your board as needed. What if I pulled a BA (no offense dude ) and decided not to wax my board at all? I don't care if the base looks blue/gray/puke/insert-color-here because of prolonged wax deprivation. Also don't care if I'm a couple of mph slower while charging the mountain.
> 
> I'd like some specifics of "base damage" - something that will compromise the integrity of the board. Otherwise, why should I care?


No base damage...but getting stuck on flat sucks. The satisfaction of passing skiers on flat is all about that wax job the afternoon before.


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## WasabiCanuck

I don't know about these other dudes but I love waxing my board. Maybe it is in my head but the base just feels better and I think it rides smoother. I've had the same board for a long time and the base still looks brand new. I believe that is because I waxed it so often. I used to wax before every day out. Now a days, I'm less OCD about it. I probably wax every 2nd or 3rd trip out.


I say do what ever the fuck you wanna do!


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## Staff_Sav

What about using a board on dry slopes? I only get about 2 weeks a year on snow, and the rest of the year I go to my local dry slope. I wonder what sort of damage I'm doing to my board and edges. I get enough speed down there (provided the sprinklers are on) to not need any more speed (or furniture polish), but I wonder what sort of damage it's doing to my base. I've recently bought a new board, so my old set up is currently for dry slope use, and the new one for when I'm on the snow. But as much as I want to keep one 'for best' it defeats the point of having the second board as it rides slightly differently, so the summer practice doesn't transfer over to the snow as well. Or is this for a different thread entirely?

Sent from my D6603 using Tapatalk


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## speedjason

Trabi75 said:


> What will happen? Probably the same thing that happens with all the boarders and skiers I pass on cat tracks and everywhere else
> 
> Sent from my SGH-M919 using Tapatalk


Unless its spring and slushy snow then you are gonna get passed by people with no wax on their board.


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## dave785

speedjason said:


> Unless its spring and slushy snow then you are gonna get passed by people with no wax on their board.


Only if he waxes wrong or if the other people have brand new boards.


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## Trabi75

speedjason said:


> Unless its spring and slushy snow then you are gonna get passed by people with no wax on their board.


Wrong. I am always passing those guys who have no wax. I have taken my boards on a spring day with no wax and come to a dead stop. I've watched this happen to friends who needed a wax. I've then waxed and went on the same run right after and speed right through those same areas. I very rarely meet boarders or skiers that are faster on cat tracks in ask conditions. 
The only thing I can assume is that some of them genuinely go slow for whatever reasons. But others must need waxed. 

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## Trabi75

KIRKRIDER said:


> Thanks..I did that too...but it's not that wax is expensive...it's just that is basically useless...again unless it's a slushy day...or you're racing.
> 
> that said there's no way I'm going to give up waxing...as I said I enjoy it...as I enjoy doing my edges, setting up whatever I'm riding..and so on.


I enjoy waxing to. I don't do the greatest job and spend a lot of time worrying about different waxes. I find a couple that work and that's it. But I can tell the difference and it helps me to pay attention to my board when I am home and make necessary repairs. 
Shoot I used to wax in the early 90s (xxx Sex wax, cause it sounded cool but really wasnt too great)and not even really scrape. I would rub that stuff down afterwards with a brown paper bag and let the first couple runs wear it a little then I would be much quicker then when I was in desparate need of wax. 
I usually wax after 2 to 4 days but in the spring I have to every day or it sticks because the slush removes the wax by the end of the day. 
25 years I've tried it with and without. I will stick with waxing because I have a better experience on the slopes. To reach his own

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## KIRKRIDER

Trabi75 said:


> I enjoy waxing to. I don't do the greatest job and spend a lot of time worrying about different waxes. I find a couple that work and that's it. But I can tell the difference and it helps me to pay attention to my board when I am home and make necessary repairs.
> Shoot I used to wax in the early 90s (xxx Sex wax, cause it sounded cool but really wasnt too great)and not even really scrape. I would rub that stuff down afterwards with a brown paper bag and let the first couple runs wear it a little then I would be much quicker then when I was in desparate need of wax.
> I usually wax after 2 to 4 days but in the spring I have to every day or it sticks because the slush removes the wax by the end of the day.
> 35 years I've tried it with and without. I will stick with waxing because I have a better experience on the slopes. To reach his own
> 
> Sent from my SGH-M919 using Tapatalk



Waxing is my Zen pre - pow activity. Beer, pot, iPad weather report and waxing in my garage.


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## Trabi75

Lol for me it's hanging out in my garage with beer, tunes and my boards.just makes me feel good and gives a relaxed sense of gearing up for a day in the mountains








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## OU812

I wax each time I go out. Not the whole board each time, sometimes if I didn't ride much last time I'll crayon on around the edges and just put a thin layer on, good enough and saves wax as well. Always hot wax. I've never not tried my board without waxing for a long time, but the black shiney base looks awesome with a fresh wax. Skating off the lift and on flat parts I'm passing skiers and they look at me like wtf!?!?

Also noticed out on the hill how little people actually do wax, skiers and boarders alike.


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## Fielding

Spend anytiMe doing telemark or cross country skiing and you'll never doubt what wax does.


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## Alpine Duke

Trabi75 said:


> Shoot I used to wax in the early 90s (xxx Sex wax, cause it sounded cool but really wasnt too great)and not even really scrape.


Are you sure on that?? Are you possibly thinking about Zog's sex wax...which is surfboard wax made to be sticky and might explain why it didn't work very well :wink:


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## 16gkid

LOL at all the poor people that dont wax their boards >:laugh2:


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## Trabi75

Alpine Duke said:


> Are you sure on that?? Are you possibly thinking about Zog's sex wax...which is surfboard wax made to be sticky and might explain why it didn't work very well :wink:


Yes I'm sure about that. I guess it was called xxx adult snowboard wax, but i called it sec wax. It wasn't zogs don't live near ocean. http://archives.segura-inc.com/portfolio/386/wax_tins

My old Burton:













I know it worked better than nothing but for some reason I switched to swix and toko at the time then I think they stopped selling this stuff so I assume the company went under. I probably bought the stuff for the stickers being a teenager and all. [emoji12] 

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## Alpine Duke

Trabi75 said:


> Yes I'm sure about that. I guess it was called xxx adult snowboard wax, but i called it sec wax. It wasn't zogs don't live near ocean. SEGURA INC :: Portfolio > XXX Snowboards > Wax tins
> 
> My old Burton:
> View attachment 94281
> View attachment 94289
> 
> I know it worked better than nothing but for some reason I switched to swix and toko at the time then I think they stopped selling this stuff so I assume the company went under. I probably bought the stuff for the stickers being a teenager and all. [emoji12]
> 
> Sent from my SGH-M919 using Tapatalk


Indeed you are sure! Probably took you a while to look up the info on it. Sorry to have wasted whatever time it took to find that:wink: because it is not Zogs like you said.

And now I guess I know of a snowboard wax company that i hadn't heard of before:snowboard1::grin:


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## Trabi75

Lol it only took me a minute to snap a photo in my way thru the garage. But yeah it took a lot longer to find that link than it was worth. Haha. I had to tilt my phone so my wife wouldn't see what the Google search cane up with. Certainly nothing to do with snowboarding lmao
But hey kept my mind on snowboarding for a bit and delayed me from work lol.

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## Alpine Duke

Back to the OP, this is from the Bataleon website:

_Hard and fast. Our sintered base material is tough stuff and its microscopic pores retain wax nuggets for a slick slide. To get the maximum benefits of a sintered base it needs to be waxed regularly. We finish ours with a proper hot wax before they leave the factory._


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## WasabiCanuck

The base just looks dry and rough without wax. I looks and feels so much better with wax on it. Might be in my head but I feel much better about riding a waxed board.


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## poopresearch

In addition to speed, wax also adds density to the base. If you don't wax, it gets gouged much easier.


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## ItchEtrigR

poopresearch said:


> In addition to speed, wax also adds density to the base. If you don't wax, it gets gouged much easier.


This some sort of joke? Or do you honestly believe that?


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## Rogue

It's not even close to summer and this thread is still going strong lol


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## Trabi75

ItchEtrigR said:


> This some sort of joke? Or do you honestly believe that?


I don't. If I can scrape the thin layer of wax of with my fingernail, how would the wax prevent a rock from gouging my board? I'm hoping he was joking. 

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## dave785

Trabi75 said:


> I don't. If I can scrape the thin layer of wax of with my fingernail, how would the wax prevent a rock from gouging my board? I'm hoping he was joking.
> 
> Sent from my SGH-M919 using Tapatalk


well his name is poop research, so I'm not sure that we should take any of his scientific findings too seriously...

or maybe he's just applying way too much wax and not taking it off? the only way you could actually get protection from wax actually would make the board significantly slower.


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## Trabi75

Maybe he's applying ptex instead of wax lol

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## f00bar




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## AgingPunk

So my buddy is still riding a 1994 Burton Ouija with step ins, no I'm not kidding. He can't remotely remember the last time it was waxed or sharpened. I can honestly say neither speed nor carving is an issue for him. All that being said, his deathtrap bindings finally died, at the bottom of the mountain thankfully. YMMV


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## Trabi75

Yesterday I meet up with some guys from work. We went to an area that takes you away from the resort. You get back via a long cat track at the bottom. From the look at these guys boards you could trek there was no wax. They were fine on the steeps but that cat track was a sticky Ness for them. I made it back. Went for apiss and was halfway done with a beer before they showed. So I guess if you don't drink beer then don't wax that way your buddies will be ready to jump on the lift when you get there

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## raffertyk2

Trabi75 said:


> Yesterday I meet up with some guys from work. We went to an area that takes you away from the resort. You get back via a long cat track at the bottom. From the look at these guys boards you could trek there was no wax. They were fine on the steeps but that cat track was a sticky Ness for them. I made it back. Went for apiss and was halfway done with a beer before they showed. So I guess if you don't drink beer then don't wax that way your buddies will be ready to jump on the lift when you get there
> 
> Sent from my SGH-M919 using Tapatalk


Drops the mic.... 

btw haven't we had enough of this thread already :blahblah:


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## Trabi75

Probably but I still have 3 hours to kill at work

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## raffertyk2

Fair point


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## dave785

yeah I'm at work right now and leave to drive up to mammoth in 6 hours and 10 minutes. I'm hitting refresh on weather.com and on this website way too often. my 10:30 client meeting was a no show... and I already got all my trades in for the day. wheeeee so board.


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## raffertyk2

Glad I'm not the only person that does that. I keep this site running all day while I sit here repairing ipads and monitoring our network on another machine. Could be worse


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## Trabi75

Word

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## Staff_Sav

I'm checking this, whilst packing to go to the alps tomorrow. The Stoke is high


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## Trabi75

Very jealous. I lived in Germany for 2 years and never went to the Alps.

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## poopresearch

dave785 said:


> well his name is poop research, so I'm not sure that we should take any of his scientific findings too seriously...
> 
> or maybe he's just applying way too much wax and not taking it off? the only way you could actually get protection from wax actually would make the board significantly slower.


Actually I have my PhD in chemistry and have worked in polymers quite a bit. No joke...

If you don't fill the pores of your base with wax, they are just full of air. I'm not talking about a protective layer of wax, I'm saying that the wax actually strengthens the base itself by filling up the air voids with a solid material. It won't prevent a rock from gouging your base, but it can reduce the depth of the gouge and sometimes make the difference between a core shot or not. It's actually just common sense if you think about it...

...but hey, what does a guy with 4 polymer patents and a PhD in chemistry know


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## poutanen

Fielding said:


> Spend anytiMe doing telemark or cross country skiing and you'll never doubt what wax does.


You are aware that they've been making waxless cross country skis for years, right?

Edit: AND, they use wax in the centre of the skis in the "kick zone" so the skis will GRIP the snow!


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## poopresearch

Waxless skies still need wax to slide well. 

"Waxable skis need 2 kinds of wax: kick or grip wax and glide wax.
Waxless skis don’t need kick wax, but they do need glide wax."


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## snowklinger

My buddie's roommate gave him a piece of old wax that was laying around. Discovered at the top of Copper it was cross country wax. Pretty hilarious.


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## Trabi75

I work in polymer chemistry too. We work with semi permeable membranes for dialysis. Filtering a polysulfone solution today and I made a freaking mess.doh. What a way to end a Friday. At least I didn't get the stuff on my clothes. Have ruined plenty of shoes and clothes over the years. 

Sent from my SGH-M919 using Tapatalk


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## poopresearch

Trabi75 said:


> I work in polymer chemistry too. We work with semi permeable membranes for dialysis. Filtering a polysulfone solution today and I made a freaking mess.doh. What a way to end a Friday. At least I didn't get the stuff on my clothes. Have ruined plenty of shoes and clothes over the years.
> 
> Sent from my SGH-M919 using Tapatalk


Very cool! I'm actually a college chemistry teacher these days and we use 14,000 MCWO dialysis tubing in one of our labs to demonstrate osmosis and dialysis with sugar water solutions. Perhaps it's the stuff you make 

Nothing makes a mess like a spilled polymer solution!!


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## Mizu Kuma

poopresearch said:


> Actually I have my PhD in chemistry and have worked in polymers quite a bit. No joke...
> 
> If you don't fill the pores of your base with wax, they are just full of air. I'm not talking about a protective layer of wax, I'm saying that the wax actually strengthens the base itself by filling up the air voids with a solid material. It won't prevent a rock from gouging your base, but it can reduce the depth of the gouge and sometimes make the difference between a core shot or not. It's actually just common sense if you think about it...
> 
> ...but hey, what does a guy with 4 polymer patents and a PhD in chemistry know


I'm more inclined to think that there'll be no physical damage to the base of not waxed regularly, but instead once the "pores" are no longer filled with wax, they're open to taking on any and all kinds of dirt!!!!! 

Once this happens, it makes the pores very hard to clean out to the standard they were when new, and therefore nowhere near as efficient in taking on wax again like they're supposed to!!!!!

* I've got a PH.D. In SweetFuckAll though!!!!!


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## Mizu Kuma

poopresearch said:


> Nothing makes a mess like a spilled polymer solution!!


I work with molten metals!!!!!

You should see the mess that shit makes when it spills!!!!! :laugh2:


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## poopresearch

Mizu Kuma said:


> I work with molten metals!!!!!
> 
> You should see the mess that shit makes when it spills!!!!! :laugh2:


LOL, you are right. That is even worse!


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## Trabi75

poopresearch said:


> Very cool! I'm actually a college chemistry teacher these days and we use 14,000 MCWO dialysis tubing in one of our labs to demonstrate osmosis and dialysis with sugar water solutions. Perhaps it's the stuff you make
> 
> Nothing makes a mess like a spilled polymer solution!!


Or company actually precipitates polysulfone and pvp to make porous hollow fiber membranes. these are bundled together and placed in a housing. The blood flows through the fiber and the bad stuff flows through the pores and leaves with the dialysate. My lab is making the polysulfone with a new process since we were single forced. We filed a patent last year and are almost thru fda approval. It's been very cool.
Other parts of the company do make and use that tubing, but that's a different part from me. 
Yea when this stuff his water it becomes particular. So it's not coming out of your clothes. 

Ugh sorry for rambling about this. A little excited about some success with a new type of reaction I had. and its the weekend. 

I get sidetracked easily lol.

Sent from my SGH-M919 using Tapatalk


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## Phedder

Mizu Kuma said:


> I work with molten metals!!!!!
> 
> You should see the mess that shit makes when it spills!!!!! :laugh2:


I'm waiting for the kindergarten teachers or old age carers to chime in...


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## Mizu Kuma

Phedder said:


> I'm waiting for the kindergarten teachers or old age carers to chime in...


Don't worry, I've seen grown men shit their pants where I work!!!!! :|


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## freshy

poopresearch said:


> ...but hey, what does a guy with 4 polymer patents and a PhD in chemistry know


You should know that air is one of the strongest and lightest substances, think corrugated cardboard. If it were just paper or filled with wax I'd wager it would be weaker than if it were filled with air.
>


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## poopresearch

Trabi75 said:


> Ugh sorry for rambling about this. A little excited about some success with a new type of reaction I had. and its the weekend.
> 
> I get sidetracked easily lol.
> 
> Sent from my SGH-M919 using Tapatalk


No worries mate. Innovations like this are hard fought and it's so exciting when you FINALLY get them to work.


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## Trabi75

poopresearch said:


> No worries mate. Innovations like this are hard fought and it's so exciting when you FINALLY get them to work.


Thanks it is nice to see something come to fruition


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## Alpine Duke

poopresearch said:


> Actually I have my PhD in chemistry and have worked in polymers quite a bit. No joke...
> 
> ...but hey, what does a guy with 4 polymer patents and a PhD in chemistry know


And yet your forum name implied that you are a Parasitologist.:wink:


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## Mizu Kuma

Alpine Duke said:


> And yet your forum name implied that you are a Parasitologist.:wink:


I was leanin more toward Proctologist!!!!!


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## Fielding

poutanen said:


> You are aware that they've been making waxless cross country skis for years, right?
> 
> Edit: AND, they use wax in the centre of the skis in the "kick zone" so the skis will GRIP the snow!


Waxless x-country skis are for people who don't want to glide as fast as those folks on real x-country skis. Yes, there are kick and glide sections to the ski. They do opposite things. The kick section under boot is sticky. (On no wax skis this section has fish scales.) When gravity is mostly not helping you glide, it's super important that you create the fastest base that you possibly can. That's where proper base prep and careful waxing comes in. Many folks wax their waxless skis.


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## shitty shredder

poopresearch said:


> ...but hey, what does a guy with 4 polymer patents and a PhD in chemistry know


Not much about ptex apparently! There are no pores in ptex. So the theory of having wax in them making them stronger sounds quite dubious, unless you can show some evidence or experiment suggesting as much.



> >The mechanism of waxabsorption in UHMWPE is simple: By bringing the
> > UHMWPE base material in contact with hot wax ( Paraffin) this “low
> > molecular PE”
> > goes into solution in the amorphos regions of the amorphous/crystalline
> > PE.[as the old chemists said: “similia similibus solvuntur” ].
> >
> > By cooling down the skibase (on snow) there is a tendency of the wax to
> > migrate out of the PE matrix as the solubility is a function of
> > temperature.
> >
> > I am working in R+D of skibases since 38 years and as stated above,
> > have never seen a “pore” in UHMWPE, but false theories are
> > unfortunately longliving!!
> >
> > Have a nice day
> >
> > best
> >
> > Urs Geissbühler
> > Chemical Engineer
> > Research & Development Manager
> > IMS Kunststoff AG
> > Rütimoosstrasse 5
> > CH-3076 Worb
> > SWITZERLAND





> So I wrote to [email protected], which is their email address, asking about pores. The relevant part of my email said "According to a posting on the internet by >Urs Geissbühler there are no pores in press sintered running bases. Can you confirm this?". I received a reply from the man himself -
> 
> >Urs Geissbühler
> >Chemical Engineer
> >Research & Development Manager
> >IMS Kunststoff AG
> >Rütimoosstrasse 5
> >CH-3076 Worb
> >SWITZERLAND
> 
> 
> >in which he said,
> 
> >"there are absolutely no pores in press sintered UHMWPE base material."


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## fruitylooper

If there are no pores in a sintered base, why does sintered hold wax so much better than extruded?


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## shitty shredder

fruitylooper said:


> If there are no pores in a sintered base, why does sintered hold wax so much better than extruded?


Well first, how do we even know that is even true to begin with? Because everyone says so? Because we know that's a bad source of information.

Once we establish that it's actually true, then we can explore why. And there can be many other reasons besides one of them being porous.

The problem is people make shit up, hear things from other people, pass it on, write blog posts, come up with their own analogies, find articles that sound technical and assume they aren't made up, and so on.

Really, pretty much none of us have any clue what is happening on a molecular level, we just take for granted that we heat this stuff up, drip it on, and scrape it off, then ride.


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## poopresearch

shitty shredder said:


> Not much about ptex apparently! There are no pores in ptex. So the theory of having wax in them making them stronger sounds quite dubious, unless you can show some evidence or experiment suggesting as much.


I think you need a hug.


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## Fielding

Read this: http://epubl.ltu.se/1402-1757/2006/03/LTU-LIC-0603-SE.pdf


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## DaftDeft

Fielding said:


> Read this: http://epubl.ltu.se/1402-1757/2006/03/LTU-LIC-0603-SE.pdf


That's pretty interesting and also a 2006 paper so its not like its new information. I wonder why the whole industry didn't stop selling its millions of dollars worth of useless products... oh right.

Paper tl;dr: Stone Grinding your skis/snowboard destroys the base and makes it slower. Waxing makes your board slower than a dry board.

Paper was a survey paper and didn't do any experimentation itself. Didn't back track but I'll guess the author worked on previous publications as well that established the two main points.


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## poopresearch

Fielding said:


> Read this: http://epubl.ltu.se/1402-1757/2006/03/LTU-LIC-0603-SE.pdf


Haha! You mean we are both right? There aren't pores but wax is critical for abrasion protection? Let's all hug.


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## shitty shredder

poopresearch said:


> Haha! You mean we are both right? There aren't pores but wax is critical for abrasion protection? Let's all hug.


Nope, better read it again. Wax hurts abrasion protection! UHMWPE is far harder than any wax.

Page 10:



> Conclusion 2 The ski base material UHMWPE is many times more abrasion resistant than any ski glide waxes available today. Accordingly, the idea that glide wax application protects the ski base from abrasion is clearly absurd.


Another experiment testing hardness before and after a wax bath, showing that the base material becomes weaker (doesn't explain why, though):

http://www.kuzmin.se/docs/isea2008_presentation.pdf


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## Trabi75

Freshly waxed board this morning. Seemed pretty quick. Too bad I made a bonehead mistake on a badly groomed run and hit the deck at 58. Separated my collar bone. Guess I shouldn't have waxed. 

Sent from my SGH-M919 using Tapatalk


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## shitty shredder

DaftDeft said:


> That's pretty interesting and also a 2006 paper so its not like its new information. I wonder why the whole industry didn't stop selling its millions of dollars worth of useless products... oh right.
> 
> Paper tl;dr: Stone Grinding your skis/snowboard destroys the base and makes it slower. Waxing makes your board slower than a dry board.
> 
> Paper was a survey paper and didn't do any experimentation itself. Didn't back track but I'll guess the author worked on previous publications as well that established the two main points.


It still seems that for some bases that have been stoneground, they do benefit from wax (because of SG damage). But steel scraping + dry board is always better, except for expensive high fluoro racing wax, which starts out better and then becomes worse than not waxing at all after a couple days worth of runs.

Easier to digest summary: 
http://www.kuzmin.se/docs/presentationwhytowax_en-en.pdf


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## Fielding

Frankly, the conclusion of the paper doesn't jive with my experience. But it's still interesting as a motherfucker, right? Some folks have put a lot of thought into wax. It might be voodoo magic, but I'm a believer. I like the way it smells when I'm waxing.


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## shitty shredder

Fielding said:


> Frankly, the conclusion of the paper doesn't jive with my experience. But it's still interesting as a motherfucker, right? Some folks have put a lot of thought into wax. It might be voodoo magic, but I'm a believer. I like the way it smells when I'm waxing.


I think unless you've steel scraped a snowboard base, the conclusion does jive with your experience.


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## Fielding

shitty shredder said:


> I think unless you've steel scraped a snowboard base, the conclusion does jive with your experience.


According to dude's thesis, steel scraped, unwaxed skis are most hydrophobic and have least friction (and therefore should be faster?!?). I have never ridden a steel scraped board or skis. So I'll recognize the possibility that it's super-titties. But for how long? In what conditions? What happens when you start getting grooves and cuts in your perfect base? My guess is that things stop being so hydrophobic/low friction down there.

Also, dude's thesis relies on lab tests but not on actual skis to the snow tests. I wonder why not? To be fair, there's a whole mess of variables out there on the real slopes that would be hard to control for. I can see where science dudes might rather not do real life tests. But still. My interest is not in pure science but rather in gliding better.

Here's a test I did in Montana a few years back. (OK, it wasn't really a test because I didn't intend to do anything more than ride.) I went out in -10 F weather. There was fresh snow that had fallen the night before. We got maybe 10 inches. Then the temp started dropping. It dropped from 20 F well into the negatives by morning. I was one of the first people to get to the mountain. I had a board that was poorly waxed with whatever all temp stuff I had on hand maybe 4 or 5 riding days before this one. When I pointed it downhill it felt like I was glued to the mountain! The snow felt like rubber. My board chirped and squeaked as it moved over the snow. It was very difficult to acquire speed. I could barely make it down one run. When I got to the base, at the suggestion of a friend, I went to the shop and had them wax my board with a cold temp wax. 30 minutes later I was sliding right.


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## Wiredsport

That article has some mighty funny reasoning.


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## DaftDeft

Fielding said:


> Also, dude's thesis relies on lab tests but not on actual skis to the snow tests. I wonder why not? To be fair, there's a whole mess of variables out there on the real slopes that would be hard to control for. I can see where science dudes might rather not do real life tests. But still. My interest is not in pure science but rather in gliding better.


That's the whole point of lab tests: isolate a single factor in a complex system and explore the boundaries of that particular thing. People everyday are doing "field tests" so this guy seems like he wanted to explore the specific mechanics of glide and how base preparation affects gliding performance. 

The experiment isn't meant to say: this is always make you glide faster in any conditions! But rather to present evidence based conclusions about the sort of things that will make ski/snowboards faster and more durable with the hope that manufacturers will pick up on the data presented and alter board designs. Also experts may find the conclusions of interest and introduce new base preparation procedures. 

Its something worth exploring I'd think, assuming this guy is even pursuing it anymore.



Fielding said:


> But for how long? In what conditions? What happens when you start getting grooves and cuts in your perfect base? My guess is that things stop being so hydrophobic/low friction down there.


Great questions and that would be a few papers to answer the first one, a couple more on the second one, a half dozen for the third one to explore all types of damage. Its a short publishing career right there! He should have the answers 10 million dollars and 10 years later. (Scholars gotta make bank somehow)


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## bksdds

Reading this thread made me think about the oil forums I used to read to kill time. 

All temp vs All temp Lo Fluoro vs no wax. Discuss!


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## Craig64

*wax*



bksdds said:


> Reading this thread made me think about the oil forums I used to read to kill time.
> 
> All temp vs All temp Lo Fluoro vs no wax. Discuss!


I use low fluro Hertal FC739 all the time as the cost difference is so minuscule when calculating usage per board wax.


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