# American Manufacturing vs. Global



## poser (Mar 7, 2018)

Seems like the vast majority if not virtually all of board discussions are focused exclusively on American Companies, the vast majority of which are owned by giant global conglomerates, who manufacture their boards elsewhere in the world. Certainly, there is no shortage of snowboard companies doing in-house American manufacturing. 

Just curious what the general attitude of sourcing American manufacturing vs. off shore manufacturing is and if that factor is of any consideration in your purchases.


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## freshy (Nov 18, 2009)

I think the general attitude is who cares gimme the best for the cheapest. Maybe I just fell into the hype of built for snowboarder by snowboarders because I have had a dream of building my own and I want to shape surfboards and build skateboards too. I don't give a shit if it's American made, I like the idea of someone who rides building it with their own hands, not really down with being pumped out of an automated factory. But I also aint no snob and would ride whatever.


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## Manicmouse (Apr 7, 2014)

Just raise more tariffs, that’ll help sell American snowboards!


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## Wiredsport (Sep 16, 2009)

There are some great US made snowboard brands but most brands are focused on _all_ snowboarders. Only 21% of resort visits are in all of North America. Only 16% of the world's snowboarders live in the USA. The US is one of the least cost effective places to build snowboards and a relatively small percentage of the market is here. Great quality snowboards can be (and are) built in a number of countries. It is a world sport with a world production structure. 

STOKED!


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## txb0115 (Sep 20, 2015)

Wiredsport said:


> There are some great US made snowboard brands but most brands are focused on _all_ snowboarders. Only 21% of resort visits are in all of North America. Only 16% of the world's snowboarders live in the USA. The US is one of the least cost effective pace to build snowboards and a relatively small percentage of the market is here. Great quality snowboards can be (and are) built in a number of countries. It is a world sport with a world production structure.
> 
> STOKED!


^ This guy gets it!


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## txb0115 (Sep 20, 2015)

freshy said:


> I think the general attitude is who cares gimme the best for the cheapest. Maybe I just fell into the hype of built for snowboarder by snowboarders because I have had a dream of building my own and I want to shape surfboards and build skateboards too. I don't give a shit if it's American made, I like the idea of someone who rides building it with their own hands, not really down with being pumped out of an automated factory. But I also aint no snob and would ride whatever.


There is no such thing as an automated factory, anywhere, in any country. 

Snowboards are handmade, no matter who makes them, they're a product where actual automation is not really possible for most of the process.


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## killclimbz (Aug 10, 2007)

txb0115 said:


> There is no such thing as an automated factory, anywhere, in any country.
> 
> Snowboards are handmade, no matter who makes them, they're a product where actual automation is not really possible for most of the process.





I was going to say that. It is true. I am sure there are some steps here and there that are more automated for some factories than others. Overall though, they have to be built by hand.


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## Wiredsport (Sep 16, 2009)

killclimbz said:


> I was going to say that. It is true. I am sure there are some steps here and there that are more automated for some factories than others. Overall though, they have to be built by hand.


Yes, and the truth that follows that fact is that labor cost dwarfs material costs. In fact, material costs for snowboards are shockingly low. Even premium materials such as carbon, sintered bases, exotic woods, etc. are a minute fraction or the overall product price. Some boutique materials are more labor intensive to work with, but again that is labor cost. That is a long way of saying that a brand building in a less expensive labor setting can offer a lot higher quality material spec and maintain a higher margin (or be more cost competitive, or both) without sacrificing quality (or in many cases improving quality).


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## freshy (Nov 18, 2009)

txb0115 said:


> There is no such thing as an automated factory, anywhere, in any country.
> 
> Snowboards are handmade, no matter who makes them, they're a product where actual automation is not really possible for most of the process.


Yeah your probably right and they are making these machines as expensive paper weights. https://cntmotion.com/solutions/application/snowboards-skis/
Maybe it's not 100% automated yet, but just because a human hand touches a board sometime during production it does not mean it's hand made. You really think Firefly boards and the like are made by hand?


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## Wiredsport (Sep 16, 2009)

freshy said:


> Yeah your probably right and they are making these machines as expensive paper weights. https://cntmotion.com/solutions/application/snowboards-skis/
> Maybe it's not 100% automated yet, but just because a human hand touches a board sometime during production it does not mean it's hand made. You really think Firefly boards and the like are made by hand?


Hi Freshy,

Core milling machines are used to varying degrees in both the US and oversees. They can be very accurate and can save labor. Hand milling cores would be very inconsistent and is really not a factor. Many premium companies that you are very familiar with skip the milling process altogether and get custom cores made from a core specialist. These groups can offer insane consistency but they do typically add to cost. Some of the most budget groups use old milling equipment and are the closest to hand milled. For those groups labor is cheap but equipment is expensive. Those are to be avoided . 

https://youtu.be/QX0P5_km9UA?t=13m11s

STOKED!


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## poser (Mar 7, 2018)

freshy said:


> Yeah your probably right and they are making these machines as expensive paper weights. https://cntmotion.com/solutions/application/snowboards-skis/
> 
> Maybe it's not 100% automated yet, but just because a human hand touches a board sometime during production it does not mean it's hand made. You really think Firefly boards and the like are made by hand?




I think when you get to the low end companies (and many people might be surprised at how many companies do this), what you are buying is a generic design sold in mass to snowboard companies that are little more than graphic design companies. They create graphics and slap them on the same exact board that dozens of other companies are using. This allows manufacturers to make a ton of product and offer bulk pricing. 

If you compare the pricing of midrange boards by well known brands manufactured offshore, you’re in the $400-$600 range compared to the $600-$900+ range of in house manufacturing by boutique brands. 

Obviously, many brands have higher end lines that fall into the $600-1000+ range and they may be manufactured in completely different factories. For example, I understand that Burton does its high end manufacturing in Austria and its lower end manufacturing in China. I also understand that different stages of manufacturing may be performed in different countries, meaning a snowboard that retails for $399 may have been shipped around the world a couple of times (especially if it contains a wood core) before being purchased from Evo. 

There seems to be a rising tide of boutique, consumer direct companies touting locally sourced materials, American manufacturing and living wages for their employees. Do those aspects hold any consideration of value to you as a consumer?


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## Nivek (Jan 24, 2008)

Alright.
To answer the OP. Most snowboard brands are US based to a degree, because it started here. You do have the likes of Salomon in France, Union in Italy, Rossi in France... so some are based in Europe. 

If you want a board with as high consistency and QC as say a Custom but made in the US on that scale, its gonna cost $900, not $600. Labour is part of it, but there are a number of raw materials that you can't efficiently source in the US. Edges, inserts, and topsheets come to mind. There are certain chemicals that go into your traditional topsheet that only a few manufacturers in the world work with, and they're in China and Europe. Inserts and edges are sourced from Germany or Taiwan. Cores from eastern Europe. The US manufacturing market is heavily affected by this. It costs a lot more to ship these raw materials over seas than to go from in country or even from the East to the West or vice versa. There is really only one US manufacturer I've seen pull off a finish similar to overseas at a regular uninflated price, Marhar. The next closest is North America, not US, Utopia in Canada. They made the Rome National this past season as well as a few others in Romes line. No noticeable differences in finish. 

Milling, profiling cores is actually mostly done on the factory side as transporting the wood in thin pre-profiled layers isn't cheap to keep everything from warping. They might order blanks that aren't profiled, maybe cut, but the profiling takes little more than a giant CNC sander. You can also use a CNC mill for more complicated stuff, but its slower. Small brands will do it cause they can profile and shape the core all at once. One machine instead of two. And with a CNC mill you can cut molds and press cassettes too. So if you're doing everything in house it makes the most sense. 

One of my favorite small marketing bits was Omatic. On their sidewalls it said "Made by hand using expensive machines". And that's the damn truth. And ya know what, a snowboard isn't furniture or a violin, I would much rather trust an expensive machine to make my snowboard accurately than a hungover 19yr old dipshit snowboarder. Do I want someone who doesn't snowboard designing my decks? No. But actually building them? Give me a career factory worker using expensive machines every time.

Can the US produce good snowboards? Yes, I own a couple. Do they match up to overseas made stuff in the fit and finish departments? My Showdog does, but it was made at Craigs in Vermont with expensive machines.


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## Nivek (Jan 24, 2008)

poser said:


> There seems to be a rising tide of boutique, consumer direct companies touting locally sourced materials, American manufacturing and living wages for their employees. Do those aspects hold any consideration of value to you as a consumer?


Curious who you're talking about. I haven't exactly seen a consumer direct push outside of Signal and sorta Lago. Both of which are made overseas.


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## txb0115 (Sep 20, 2015)

Nivek said:


> Curious who you're talking about. I haven't exactly seen a consumer direct push outside of Signal and sorta Lago. Both of which are made overseas.


I'd say NA for this statement... I can name a few...

Prior
Hightide
Fullbag
Olive
Venture 
Marhar 

Most of these brands have very few dealers, do a lot of direct sales, and are making their product 100% start to finish, in NA

These are just a few


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## Nivek (Jan 24, 2008)

txb0115 said:


> Nivek said:
> 
> 
> > Curious who you're talking about. I haven't exactly seen a consumer direct push outside of Signal and sorta Lago. Both of which are made overseas.
> ...


Venture and Prior are by no means new and have been NA made for longer than this trend. Ventures current sales model is a direct result of their hiatus a couple years ago. Prior, well they're Canadian so I can't really speak to any of that. Never heard of Olive and Fullbag was a mostly direct company before they got into the snowboard game anyway. You got me on Hightide, but they are also brand new and unless you have had a conversation with, I think Jason?, the owner about his strategy being direct sales I don't think a brand that new can be counted in the trend till they demonstrate a true lack of interest in shops. Marhar has made a push, but with the dying off local small shops, where small brands have the likeliest chance of being picked up, they dont have much choice than direct. 

I would argue that selling direct isn't a trend in itself, but a reaction to the decrease in brick and mortar business by the consumer in favor of online. These brands aren't going direct because they want to, it's their only option. I'll say the direct sales model is a trend when we see success on the level of Canyon or YT on the bike side. See a brand hit B level status with a direct sales model and I'll be convinced. So far I've only been shown D level brands. 

I think the future is mega stores and online. Soon enough the only physcal shops that will stay in business are concept stores and shops that can carry a decent selection from 8+ brands. Everything else will be online business. So while I don't see made in NA with direct sales as a trend now, I do see direct sales in general as the next step.


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## freshy (Nov 18, 2009)

I don't know of any other company besides Lib/Mervin that grow their own proprietary tree and mill it into cores in house. Their boards used to have a "shaped by:" area where the shaper would hand write his name or initials. Kind of a moot point since its gone now. But regardless, I know those boards are definetly built by hand. Maybe some 19 year old wank is doing something to it but I imagine he's learning from a 40 year old tradesman who snowboards and has a job he loves because he's s doing something he's passionate about.
So glad they don't have a China department for shit boards going to Sport Check.


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## Wiredsport (Sep 16, 2009)

freshy said:


> I don't know of any other company besides Lib/Mervin that grow their own proprietary tree and mill it into cores in house. Their boards used to have a "shaped by:" area where the shaper would hand write his name or initials. Kind of a moot point since its gone now. But regardless, I know those boards are definetly built by hand. Maybe some 19 year old wank is doing something to it but I imagine he's learning from a 40 year old tradesman who snowboards and has a job he loves because he's s doing something he's passionate about.
> So glad they don't have a China department for shit boards going to Sport Check.


Hi Freshy,

Mervin is also highly automated. But I still consider this a degree of hand building. You can check it out here: 



 . I think that is a good thing as it allows consistency, but again, the end result is going to depend on the guy quality checking and chucking what should be defects. Way back in the day Mervin had a funny a marketing paste on that went at the bottom of their print ads. It said something like, "inserts are produced by 3 companies. We buy ours from one of them. Edges are produced by two companies. We buy ours from one of them. Bases are..." 

The lines are very blurred these days. Consider the Nidecker acquisitions this year (adding to a bouquet of brands). What do you call a sub brand that is Euro owned, Dubai produced, and 85% sold overseas? 

In the end a great snowboard is a great snowboard and in my mind all snowboarders are part of the tribe.

STOKED!


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## freshy (Nov 18, 2009)

Wiredsport said:


> Hi Freshy,
> 
> ...
> 
> ...


I hear you man. And your right, I'm kinda going on about ideologies or something. I guess what I'm really getting at in a poor fashion is some snowboard companies started buy a guy with money, and some are started by a guy building boards in his garage. Trapper Snowboards is one I can think of as a good example of hand made boards. I want to see people like ETM from this forum at the helm of companies, people who build and shape their own boards. 
Yes a great snowboard is a great snowboard and most won't think too much beyond that. But I want my money to go to the guy who is still snowboarding, skateboarding and surfing. I just saw a pic of Pete Saari carving up a bowl, when was the last time old Jake stood on a skateboard?

But seriously??? You consider that highly automated?


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## Wiredsport (Sep 16, 2009)

Hi Fresh,

I am all for craft groups building in smaller numbers. It has a great feel to it and the end product can be outstanding. Custom builds are also possible in that mode which adds even more potential value for those who need it. The price, of course, will not appeal to (or be possible for) most riders. 

As for the automation level in the NS and Mervin factory vids that I had posted, that level of automation is the norm for overseas factories as well. Basically, you have workers moving the product from one partially automated / automation assisted station to another. There is some variation in the capabilities of the machinery used but there is always a big human component which is why the labor costs mentioned earlier dwarfs materials costs. 

STOKED!


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## PlanB (Nov 21, 2014)

poser said:


> Just curious what the general attitude of sourcing American manufacturing vs. off shore manufacturing is and if that factor is of any consideration in your purchases.


This is a great question for a debate and there's been many good points raised already - lots of stuff to make one think. 



freshy said:


> I think the general attitude is who cares gimme the best for the cheapest. Maybe I just fell into the hype of built for snowboarder by snowboarders because I have had a dream of building my own and I want to shape surfboards and build skateboards too. I don't give a shit if it's American made, I like the idea of someone who rides building it with their own hands, not really down with being pumped out of an automated factory. But I also aint no snob and would ride whatever.


Best for cheapest is definitely what ruled my purchasing decisions when I was younger. Don't want to date myself and come off as a lame-old-dad type (which I am) but when I first began riding you literally only bought what the 1 store in the city had because snowboarding, as an industry, was so new there was literally NO CHOICE. If I didn't like either Burton, Sims or Barfoot (yes, that's how old I am) then I wasn't getting a snowboard, period. Production methods, fair-wage factories, eco-sensitive materials, earth friendly manufacturing processes, ect.... were all NON-FACTORS. You bought what the local skate shop happened to bring in and you didn't question where/how it was made. 

Fast forward many, many, many years, I can say I try to consider both the company and the manufacturing process/system when I buy gear (not just snowboarding gear, but most anything I spend money on really). I have refused to buy a certain item because I didn't agree with the company policies and I have bought an item I didn't expect to buy because I learned about something the company had done which I really agreed with and felt I wanted to support. Sadly, I've bought many items without questioning where they really came from just because I wanted/needed them.

As I said, lots of things to make one think.


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## f00bar (Mar 6, 2014)

If it wasn't wittled from a sequoia with a cream cheese spreader then its not hand made.


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## SGboarder (Jun 24, 2012)

freshy said:


> I just saw a pic of Pete Saari carving up a bowl, when was the last time old Jake stood on a skateboard?


Jake (when he's not in the hospital...) rides a lot more than Pete.



freshy said:


> But seriously??? You consider that highly automated?


That is a pretty standard production process. Other than some mega mass production runs, almost all manufacturing facilities (Burton, SWS, Capita mothership, heck even NS etc.) in the world will be substantially the same.



Wiredsport said:


> Hi Fresh,
> 
> I am all for craft groups building in smaller numbers. It has a great feel to it and the end product can be outstanding. Custom builds are also possible in that mode which adds even more potential value for those who need it. The price, of course, will not appeal to (or be possible for) most riders.
> 
> ...


Exactly that


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## freshy (Nov 18, 2009)

SGboarder said:


> Jake (when he's not in the hospital...) rides a lot more than Pete.
> 
> 
> That is a pretty standard production process. Other than some mega mass production runs, almost all manufacturing facilities (Burton, SWS, Capita mothership, heck even NS etc.) in the world will be substantially the same.
> ...


Ok sure...

Don't get me wrong I was not meaning to leave all the good companies out, totally agree with that list and I'm sure way more could be added. Mass produced shit was more what I was referring to. Little suspect of some of the big brands using mega mass production techniques on their low end mega mall kinda boards.


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## freshy (Nov 18, 2009)

PlanB said:


> This is a great question for a debate and there's been many good points raised already - lots of stuff to make one think.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm a lame ass old rad dad. I was the same growing up and yes remember Barfoot, and Burton Air being the all time pinnacle. Your so lucky you had 1 board, I had to rent and if I got a friggin Minstril eurocarve board because it was all they had left it was what I rode for the day, and places renting Burton was unheard of. By the time I researched enough because this one board was going to be the one board I had long known it was going to be a Lib-Tech....So finally saved up all I could one summer and fall and my first board was a used Kemper. You know damn well how expensive snowboards were for kids. But after that performance always before price.


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## SGboarder (Jun 24, 2012)

freshy said:


> Ok sure...
> 
> Don't get me wrong I was not meaning to leave all the good companies out, totally agree with that list and I'm sure way more could be added. Mass produced shit was more what I was referring to. Little suspect of some of the big brands using mega mass production techniques on their low end mega mall kinda boards.


You are missing the point. Most of the mass production is much *better* than what comes out of these so-called 'good companies'. 
Snowboard manufacturing is really pretty simple. As a result Production quality is really mostly about consistency and quality control. On average a semi-skilled worker in a proper mass production factory (and that includes not only includes both the Chinese factories but also Burton, Capita, SWS) will produce something *better* than some small scale artisan/craftsman.


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## f00bar (Mar 6, 2014)

SGboarder said:


> You are missing the point. Most of the mass production is much *better* than what comes out of these so-called 'good companies'.
> Snowboard manufacturing is really pretty simple. As a result Production quality is really mostly about consistency and quality control. On average a semi-skilled worker in a proper mass production factory (and that includes not only includes both the Chinese factories but also Burton, Capita, SWS) will produce something *better* than some small scale artisan/craftsman.


I think your much better is a bit of an overstatement if talking build quality. The reality is for any decent company you'll find closer to zero difference in quality assuming like materials. 

I will say this though. If given a choice to drink from the river near a US/CA/EU made factory and one in China or Middle East which would you choose?


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## poser (Mar 7, 2018)

SGboarder said:


> You are missing the point. Most of the mass production is much *better* than what comes out of these so-called 'good companies'.
> 
> Snowboard manufacturing is really pretty simple. As a result Production quality is really mostly about consistency and quality control. On average a semi-skilled worker in a proper mass production factory (and that includes not only includes both the Chinese factories but also Burton, Capita, SWS) will produce something *better* than some small scale artisan/craftsman.




It would be interesting if there were a way to strip a number of boards down side by side and test this hypothesis. If we considered quality of materials, cutting and pressing consistency as well as attention to detail in terms of epoxy bonding, what would we discover? 

I presently have 2 higher end, boutique brand boards, both made in small American shops. I’d maintain that they are both are completely unique in design and functionality that places them in a different “class” than most of the “bro” brands. That, however, doesn’t mean that they would stack up In Terms of absolute consistency from one board to the next. But then again, if you look to the Mtn Bike realm, it’s almost undeniable that Frank the welder is the best bike welder in the world and you’ll pay quite a bit of money for a frame welded by him. One might argue that generic Chinese welding for brands like Specialized and Trek is more consistent across that board, but one also might Argue that a high end consumer is willing to pay for a certain degree of “uniqueness” in a Frank the welder job. Your bike is every so slightly unique from anyone else’s. Now, the average Joe would never know or have the ability to appreciate the difference.


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## freshy (Nov 18, 2009)

SGboarder said:


> You are missing the point. Most of the mass production is much *better* than what comes out of these so-called 'good companies'.
> Snowboard manufacturing is really pretty simple. As a result Production quality is really mostly about consistency and quality control. On average a semi-skilled worker in a proper mass production factory (and that includes not only includes both the Chinese factories but also Burton, Capita, SWS) will produce something *better* than some small scale artisan/craftsman.


I get your point... but by good companies I mean companies that in a nutshell pay professional riders or shape cool boards like Burton, Capita, Lib, Fullbag,YES,NS, Marhar, DWD, ect ect. Or else go buy a Firefly setup and enjoy the proper mass production techniques semi skilled workers have worked out to earn max profits. You'll be sure to distinguish the utmost in consistency and really appreciate a serious quality control regiment second to none. 

...Realistically if an artisan can make boards good enough that's what counts. 
If it's good enough for getting down the hill and putting a smile on the users face, and good enough that other people want to buy one. Then whats the problem? Surely it's how almost every good company started.

I know lines are blurred and there are Chinese companies that make good shit and even stranger truths, but there must be boards that are stamped out fast and cheap without many semi skilled workers even really touching them between processes. Right?


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## freshy (Nov 18, 2009)

poser said:


> It would be interesting if there were a way to strip a number of boards down side by side and test this hypothesis. If we considered quality of materials, cutting and pressing consistency as well as attention to detail in terms of epoxy bonding, what would we discover?
> 
> I presently have 2 higher end, boutique brand boards, both made in small American shops. I’d maintain that they are both are completely unique in design and functionality that places them in a different “class” than most of the “bro” brands. That, however, doesn’t mean that they would stack up In Terms of absolute consistency from one board to the next. But then again, if you look to the Mtn Bike realm, it’s almost undeniable that Frank the welder is the best bike welder in the world and you’ll pay quite a bit of money for a frame welded by him. One might argue that generic Chinese welding for brands like Specialized and Trek is more consistent across that board, but one also might Argue that a high end consumer is willing to pay for a certain degree of “uniqueness” in a Frank the welder job. Your bike is every so slightly unique from anyone else’s. Now, the average Joe would never know or have the ability to appreciate the difference.


How about a powder day and a cat? You would discover the board likes to be rid a certain way. I bet your thoughts of epoxy bonding would quickly disappear.


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## f00bar (Mar 6, 2014)

Plenty of examples of items a lot more expensive and important than a snowboard that has made the switch to a more automated production and then needed to be reworked by a human because it didn't pass inspection.

I've seen an entire propeller production line move from a less automated process in the US to a highly automated facility in France only to see a larger percentage of the end items fail inspection, have to be shipped to the US for rework, and then shipped back to France to be shipped.

We aren't measuring specs to microns here. They are just snowboards. Other than volume there is no reason a highly skilled laborer can't produce the same or better quality board as a machine for the part of production that doesn't truly need a machine. 

Unless of course your expecting them to melt plastic beads with a hair dryer and compress the layers together with their feet.


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## poser (Mar 7, 2018)

freshy said:


> How about a powder day and a cat? You would discover the board likes to be rid a certain way. I bet your thoughts of epoxy bonding would quickly disappear.




Sure. Sounds fun and it’s been done before, but it is entirely subjective. The argument I was responding to was that, objectively speaking, there are merits to mass production. I’m simply stating that it would be interesting to take a few samples of the same boards from different companies and provide a more objective analysis of craftsmanship to the point of comparing alloy quality of the edges.


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## Manicmouse (Apr 7, 2014)

f00bar said:


> Unless of course your expecting them to melt plastic beads with a hair dryer and compress the layers together with their feet.


:laughat:

In my opinion the debate is irrelevant in terms of "craftsmanship", we're not buying Gibson Les Pauls. I just want boards made to a high enough standard that I get enough use out of it before it breaks.

From a kiwi perspective while I do like the idea of a passionate snowboarder crafting my next plank I don't care if that's in Austria or Colorado. But we do make our own boards in NZ apparently! https://splitn2.com/products/custom-splitboard Had to Google that one...


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## SGboarder (Jun 24, 2012)

freshy said:


> I get your point... but by good companies I mean companies that in a nutshell pay professional riders or shape cool boards like Burton, Capita, Lib, Fullbag,YES,NS, Marhar, DWD, ect ect. Or else go buy a Firefly setup and enjoy the proper mass production techniques semi skilled workers have worked out to earn max profits. You'll be sure to distinguish the utmost in consistency and really appreciate a serious quality control regiment second to none.
> 
> ...Realistically if an artisan can make boards good enough that's what counts.
> If it's good enough for getting down the hill and putting a smile on the users face, and good enough that other people want to buy one. Then whats the problem? Surely it's how almost every good company started.
> ...


You're still missing the point. Companies like Burton, Capita, SWS *are* mass production companies. 
LibTech and NS less so and as a result have much less manufacturing consistency and/or less sophisticated construction techniques.
And Fullbag, YES, etc. *do not make* their own boards at all.



f00bar said:


> Plenty of examples of items a lot more expensive and important than a snowboard that has made the switch to a more automated production and then needed to be reworked by a human because it didn't pass inspection.
> 
> I've seen an entire propeller production line move from a less automated process in the US to a highly automated facility in France only to see a larger percentage of the end items fail inspection, have to be shipped to the US for rework, and then shipped back to France to be shipped.
> 
> ...


Thing is that (as Wiredsport explained) proper/high quality mass production is not fully automated. Rather it is a combination of some automation and skilled workers following very standardized procedures (not artisanal craftsmen shaping/creating individual 'pieces').



Manicmouse said:


> :laughat:
> 
> In my opinion the debate is irrelevant in terms of "craftsmanship", we're not buying Gibson Les Pauls. I just want boards made to a high enough standard that I get enough use out of it before it breaks.
> 
> From a kiwi perspective while I do like the idea of a passionate snowboarder crafting my next plank I don't care if that's in Austria or Colorado. But we do make our own boards in NZ apparently! https://splitn2.com/products/custom-splitboard Had to Google that one...


This guy gets it.


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## Wiredsport (Sep 16, 2009)

Manicmouse said:


> :laughat:
> 
> In my opinion the debate is irrelevant in terms of "craftsmanship", we're not buying Gibson Les Pauls.


I thought of guitars as well. Eastman guitars in China is an old handmade violin company that has more recently taken to building guitars using hand tools (mostly really old school hand tools). They build incredible guitars. The Thinlines are unreal and the newer LP knockoffs are pretty outrageous as well. Even so, a similar model is almost a third of the price of a Gibson with an equivalent spec. Still they get demerits by some for Chinese production.

Gibson gets criticized for CNC stuff and mass production equipment and has vocal detractors (mostly online?) about quality issues in recent years. Despite bankruptcy this year, their guitar business has actually been healthy.

If it is hard to pull a point from all of that...well, it is. It is a mixed up time for brands, retail, production, mass production, quality perception and the _intangible product connection_ that is very real.

STOKED!


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## poser (Mar 7, 2018)

Wiredsport said:


> I thought of guitars as well. Eastman guitars in China is an old handmade violin company that has more recently taken to building guitars using hand tools (mostly really old school hand tools). They build incredible guitars. The Thinlines are unreal and the newer LP knockoffs are pretty outrageous as well. Even so, a similar model is almost a third of the price of a Gibson with an equivalent spec. Still they get demerits by some for Chinese production.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




In your example, however, a shiny brand new Gibson doesn’t hold the allure of a vintage instrument. And, unless that allure is purely mythical (because I have a 1962 Silvertone that is American made that’s not valued at anymore than $400), there’s something about the manufacturing process that was magical. I had a 51 Fender Champ with the White County logo (basically built in Leo Fender’s garage) that was absolutely beat to shit and worn out (missing wood at all contract points) that fetched almost $1500 when I sold it. But that all seems to be a moot point because vintage snowboards are worthless in application. Neil Young owns Hank William’s guitar (seemingly priceless) and occasionally even takes it out on tour. There’s no way to make an equivalent there: Shaun White rides Jake Burton’s very first snowboard to Gold Medal ?[emoji848].


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## Wiredsport (Sep 16, 2009)

poser said:


> In your example, however, a shiny brand new Gibson doesn’t hold the allure of a vintage instrument. And, unless that allure is purely mythical (because I have a 1962 Silvertone that is American made that’s not valued at anymore than $400), there’s something about the manufacturing process that was magical. I had a 51 Fender Champ with the White County logo (basically built in Leo Fender’s garage) that was absolutely beat to shit and worn out (missing wood at all contract points) that fetched almost $1500 when I sold it. But that all seems to be a moot point because vintage snowboards are worthless in application. Neil Young owns Hank William’s guitar (seemingly priceless) and occasionally even takes it out on tour. There’s no way to make an equivalent there: Shaun White rides Jake Burton’s very first snowboard to Gold Medal ?[emoji848].


If only "reliced" snowboards fetched $12,000 a pop like that wacky madness from the various custom shops .


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## freshy (Nov 18, 2009)

SGboarder said:


> You're still missing the point. Companies like Burton, Capita, SWS *are* mass production companies.
> LibTech and NS less so and as a result have much less manufacturing consistency and/or less sophisticated construction techniques.
> And Fullbag, YES, etc. *do not make* their own boards at all.
> 
> ...


I get it, I mentioned it like twice, go ahead and read my posts. I Get they mass produce quality shit even in China. They are still good companies, they have contributed to snowboarding. I don't know what your going on about with half your statements tho. 

Fullbag, there is another company inspired by skateboarding and snowboarding and buddy started shaping stuff and are still about local manufacturing in Quebec, Canada. Good company! Pretty sure they make their own boards dude. But I dunno for sure.
Yes also started with roots in board sports, does not say on their website if they make their own or not. But I bet one of their creators shaped boards in his garage first.

All I am getting at is shaping a board is like the heart of the snowboard experience. I realize what you say about proper mass production techniques but still some artisan is making individual boards as prototypes and tweaking them until they are ready for production, at least for a board worth spending money on. And not all boards need to be pressed in a mass production environment to be a quality board. I can purchase the exact same base, core, glass, inserts, top sheet, carbon strips ect as any board. Design, lay up and press my own board, and quality wise be right up there with the best of them. Sure from a mass production standpoint every board will have some differences, but will it be enough for a powder specific snow surfer for example to have a dramatic effect on anything? 


You like cheap mass produced boards, I like something that has some thought put behind it and some tried and true geometries arranged in a way that is pleasing to the eye and functional in deep snow. Hey lets go ride.


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## f00bar (Mar 6, 2014)

freshy;3328275 I realize what you say about proper mass production techniques but still some artisan is making individual boards as prototypes and tweaking them until they are ready for production said:


> Let's be clear here. Proper mass production techniques means they can build larger production lines much cheaper because of tax incentives, less responsibility to the environment, and currency manipulation.
> 
> China massively subsidizes the costs of new factories. Labor costs are a pretty small part of the picture in reality and don't drive lines to China. The local laws and costs associated to running a larger manufacturing production line do. And by not being Burton or whatever factories they one remove themselves from the responsibility and turn the other cheek.
> 
> I guarantee that there is no way whatever factory is making Burton boards would be able to plop down in the middle of VT and start churning out boards the way they do now.


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## SGboarder (Jun 24, 2012)

freshy said:


> Fullbag, there is another company inspired by skateboarding and snowboarding and buddy started shaping stuff and are still about local manufacturing in Quebec, Canada. Good company! Pretty sure they make their own boards dude. But I dunno for sure.


Nope. Utopie.


freshy said:


> Yes also started with roots in board sports, does not say on their website if they make their own or not. But I bet one of their creators shaped boards in his garage first.


JFC. Yes guys came from the Burton team. They are purely design/research/branding/marketing. Production has always been outsourced to an OEM - first to GST and ever since to SWS in Dubai.

Most snowboard brands operate the same way. Here is a good article:
Where Are Snowboards Really Made? Illicit Investigates... | illicit snowboarding
Although some of the details are outdated most of the messages still apply ("Using an OEM is not necessarily bad", "Building it yourself is not necessarily good", "Made in China isn't the problem") and what the Endeavor guy says in the video is still true.



freshy said:


> All I am getting at is shaping a board is like the heart of the snowboard experience. I realize what you say about proper mass production techniques but still some artisan is making individual boards as prototypes and tweaking them until they are ready for production, at least for a board worth spending money on.


Dream on. That romantic notion is a thing of the past (if it ever was true).



freshy said:


> And not all boards need to be pressed in a mass production environment to be a quality board. I can purchase the exact same base, core, glass, inserts, top sheet, carbon strips ect as any board. Design, lay up and press my own board, and quality wise be right up there with the best of them.


Maybe once but not consistently. That is the whole point.



freshy said:


> Sure from a mass production standpoint every board will have some differences, but will it be enough for a powder specific snow surfer for example to have a dramatic effect on anything?


Not talking about small differences like +/-1mm of camber or whatever. We're (also) talking about warranty events like lack of proper lamination/delam, defects in the core, misaligned edges, wrong top sheets/bases, inserts drilled in the wrong places, scratches etc

Fact of the matter is that such events are dramatically reduced by using proper manufacturing processes. And like it or not, these days that means producing in China, in Dubai, or at Capita.



freshy said:


> You like cheap mass produced boards, I like something that has some thought put behind it and some tried and true geometries arranged in a way that is pleasing to the eye and functional in deep snow. Hey lets go ride.


No, I like quality (regardless of where and by who they are designed/shaped). That includes boards being properly constructed and has nothing to do with cheap mass production.
Some NA facilities are better (arguably Utopie for instance) than others but overall they are simply not consistently on the same level as China/SWS/Capita (plus ability to do advanced construction techniques, costs etc).


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## Ridin_since1988 (Oct 3, 2018)

These days, I'd much rather buy & ride Lib Tech, Gnu or Never Summer. I also like the idea of boards being made in the U.S. by people that ride & are into the lifestyle. I used to work at Ride Snowboards (when the boards were made in California & the bindings made in Preston, WA). I'd rather not buy & ride a board that is made in Communist China by people that hate my guts. Just my opinion.


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## BurtonAvenger (Aug 14, 2007)

Ridin_since1988 said:


> These days, I'd much rather buy & ride Lib Tech, Gnu or Never Summer. I also like the idea of boards being made in the U.S. by people that ride & are into the lifestyle. I used to work at Ride Snowboards (when the boards were made in California & the bindings made in Preston, WA). I'd rather not buy & ride a board that is made in Communist China by people that hate my guts. Just my opinion.


You also haven't ridden in 18 years. So your opinion is pretty shit.


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## akcom (Sep 1, 2018)

It's interesting to reflect on the fact that what Americans would call patriotism, almost anywhere else would be considered "nationalism". With that in mind, seems like a pretty arbitrary to draw a line in the sand and say "I want my boards pressed in North America" when we live in such a global world. 

Look around you: your monitor, your shoes, your tempered glass windows, your car - how many of the items you use on a daily basis have, at some point, been across the globe? Probably most of them.

I like capita boards, probably due to their marketing. It's a nice plus that their facilities are eco-friendly and they provide a much needed manufacturing service to the rest of the industry. But I wouldn't get upset if they made their boards in Dubai or China or anywhere else because then I'd be a hypocrite. I don't care where my car comes from, where my shirt comes from, or where my cellphone comes from, so why my board?


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## Ridin_since1988 (Oct 3, 2018)

But it does. You just started boarding at breakfast - so don't be mad at me for that. Either that - or your're one of the Communists I was speaking about. You know "deet deet" (very little)


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## Nivek (Jan 24, 2008)

Ridin_since1988 said:


> But it does. You just started boarding at breakfast - so don't be mad at me for that. Either that - or your're one of the Communists I was speaking about. You know "deet deet" (very little) <img src="http://www.snowboardingforum.com/images/smilies/smile.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Smile" class="inlineimg" />


Thats cute you're cute. Wait, you're a flat earther aren't you!


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## Ridin_since1988 (Oct 3, 2018)

Nah....I've seen Fear Of A Flat Planet before. Oh wait, you wouldn't know about that because...


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## Ridin_since1988 (Oct 3, 2018)

Nivek said:


> Thats cute you're cute. Wait, you're a flat earther aren't you!


Nah....I've seen Fear Of A Flat Planet before. Oh wait, you wouldn't know about that because...


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## Manicmouse (Apr 7, 2014)

Ridin_since1988 said:


> I'd rather not buy & ride a board that is made in Communist China by people that hate my guts. Just my opinion.


The people are actually very welcoming of foreigners over there, but I don't want to undermine your story :grin:


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## SGboarder (Jun 24, 2012)

Ridin_since1988 said:


> These days, I'd much rather buy & ride Lib Tech, Gnu or Never Summer. I also like the idea of boards being made in the U.S. by people that ride & are into the lifestyle. I used to work at Ride Snowboards (when the boards were made in California & the bindings made in Preston, WA). I'd rather not buy & ride a board that is made in Communist China by people that hate my guts. Just my opinion.





Ridin_since1988 said:


> But it does. You just started boarding at breakfast - so don't be mad at me for that. Either that - or your're one of the Communists I was speaking about. You know "deet deet" (very little)


I've got news for you: China is far from communist these days and you'll be hard pressed to find people there who hate Americans (unless you keep calling them communists...).



Manicmouse said:


> The people are actually very welcoming of foreigners over there, but I don't want to undermine your story :grin:


Yup, never let the facts get in the way of a good story LOL


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## BurtonAvenger (Aug 14, 2007)

Ridin_since1988 said:


> But it does. You just started boarding at breakfast - so don't be mad at me for that. Either that - or your're one of the Communists I was speaking about. You know "deet deet" (very little)


Gets first board in 1988, rides till 2000, takes 18 year hiatus. 

Got first snowboard on X mas of 87, has had 3 seasons under 100 days since 1995, never took a 18 year hiatus, doesn't live in the past, also knows more about snowboard manufacturing. 

Who has the more valid opinion?


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## Ridin_since1988 (Oct 3, 2018)

BurtonAvenger said:


> Gets first board in 1988, rides till 2000, takes 18 year hiatus.
> 
> Got first snowboard on X mas of 87, has had 3 seasons under 100 days since 1995, never took a 18 year hiatus, doesn't live in the past, also knows more about snowboard manufacturing.
> 
> Who has the more valid opinion?


First ride was in 1988. Have ridden all over New England, Utah, Wyoming, Washington, Oregon & British Columbia as well as Europe. Worked in the industry for a long time in management. Took over from the guy who left Ride to be a VP at Capita. 

Meanwhile - you've got one season under your belt. And you'll always be a Masshole wherever you ride or move to and I'm sorry for that :laughat2: Don't be mad at me because you have to ride east coast ice & crud.


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## BurtonAvenger (Aug 14, 2007)

Ridin_since1988 said:


> First ride was in 1988. Have ridden all over New England, Utah, Wyoming, Washington, Oregon & British Columbia as well as Europe. Worked in the industry for a long time in management. Took over from the guy who left Ride to be a VP at Capita.
> 
> Meanwhile - you've got one season under your belt. And you'll always be a Masshole wherever you ride or move to and I'm sorry for that :laughat2: Don't be mad at me because you have to ride east coast ice & crud.


The comedic gold in this is amazing. 

You live in NJ a state that is being raped by climate change. Perhaps you should go to Action Park and end yourself. What exit do you live on?


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## Ridin_since1988 (Oct 3, 2018)

BurtonAvenger said:


> The comedic gold in this is amazing.
> 
> You live in NJ a state that is being raped by climate change. Perhaps you should go to Action Park and end yourself. What exit do you live on?


Cause I'm a Masshole, oley oh!! etc. etc.

Burton Avenger - come back after you get more then 4 runs under your belt....Does Burton know you are avenging them? LOL.


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## f00bar (Mar 6, 2014)

SGboarder said:


> I've got news for you: China is far from communist these days and you'll be hard pressed to find people there who hate Americans (unless you keep calling them communists...).
> 
> 
> Yup, never let the facts get in the way of a good story LOL


You are confusing Socialist with Communist. One is economics, the other is governance. And China is every bit as Communist as ever. There is only one party, there is no opposition to it, there is only compliance. But now we're a bit off topic.

You want to know why Burton makes boards in Austria and China? Because ~70% of their products are sold overseas. Bringing that money back to the US would have incurred a 35% tax. Keeping it over seas and investing it is a no brainer.


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## Ridin_since1988 (Oct 3, 2018)

f00bar said:


> You are confusing Socialist with Communist. One is economics, the other is governance. And China is every bit as Communist as ever. There is only one party, there is no opposition to it, there is only compliance. But now we're a bit off topic.
> 
> You want to know why Burton makes boards in Austria and China? Because ~70% of their products are sold overseas. Bringing that money back to the US would have incurred a 35% tax. Keeping it over seas and investing it is a no brainer.


Which is fine. I'm saying if I'm going to spend $$$ it's going to be with one of three brands. You can buy whatever you want.


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## Manicmouse (Apr 7, 2014)

f00bar said:


> And China is every bit as Communist as ever. There is only one party.


How about this one?


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## kriegs13 (Nov 28, 2016)

Manicmouse said:


> How about this one?



This guy get it


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## SGboarder (Jun 24, 2012)

f00bar said:


> You are confusing Socialist with Communist. One is economics, the other is governance. And China is every bit as Communist as ever. There is only one party, there is no opposition to it, there is only compliance. But now we're a bit off topic.


Nope. While socialism arguably is (mostly) an economic concept, communism is *both* a governance *and* an economic system. China does not qualify as communist already because of the economic criterion (there is no common ownership or control of the means of production).
And newsflash, while there is only one party, there is a very active and vocal opposition to it.



f00bar said:


> You want to know why Burton makes boards in Austria and China? Because ~70% of their products are sold overseas. Bringing that money back to the US would have incurred a 35% tax. Keeping it over seas and investing it is a no brainer.


Again, nope. True for many US corporations that do business/sell outside of the US but do not repatriate the cash. Burton generally brings most of the cash back, so this is not a tax play.


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## BurtonAvenger (Aug 14, 2007)

Ridin_since1988 said:


> Cause I'm a Masshole, oley oh!! etc. etc.
> 
> Burton Avenger - come back after you get more then 4 runs under your belt....Does Burton know you are avenging them? LOL.


4 runs is that what you intend to make this season for your triumphant return?


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## killclimbz (Aug 10, 2007)

Obviously this thread has run it's course. Everyone is getting salty, soooooo....


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