# Good "Do it All" Binding?



## Unowned (Feb 5, 2011)

rome 390, flux tt30, union force, burton cartel...list goes on....general questions lead to general answers...


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## LukeRyan (Jan 12, 2012)

Unowned said:


> rome 390, flux tt30, union force, burton cartel...list goes on....general questions lead to general answers...


What would YOU personally suggest as a pretty responsive binding that would work well with the board I just bought. I'm looking for a binding that could handle ANYTHING from bombing down the mountain to hitting small jumps, jibbing and all that stuff.


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## SimonB (Oct 13, 2010)

I have Raiden Blackhawk on my Proto. I LOVE them. I demo'd some Burton (Cartel and Malavita) this week-end and prefer my Raiden by far. Very responsive, super comfortable, smooth ratchet (better than Burton IMO), and flexible enough for park. Also has canted and cushioned footbed. Mini-disc is nice but will only fit on 2x4 inserts...

On the stiffness, I'd compare them to the Cartel.

I think they would fit great on a TRS,


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## Smokehaus (Nov 2, 2010)

Forces if you can deal with the toe caps.


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## LukeRyan (Jan 12, 2012)

Smokehaus said:


> Forces if you can deal with the toe caps.


What's the gripe with the forces toe cap?



SimonB said:


> I have Raiden Blackhawk on my Proto. I LOVE them. I demo'd some Burton (Cartel and Malavita) this week-end and prefer my Raiden by far. Very responsive, super comfortable, smooth ratchet (better than Burton IMO), and flexible enough for park. Also has canted and cushioned footbed. Mini-disc is nice but will only fit on 2x4 inserts...
> 
> On the stiffness, I'd compare them to the Cartel.
> 
> I think they would fit great on a TRS,


Thanks! I'll def take a look at the Raiden's!


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## LukeRyan (Jan 12, 2012)

Also, can someone please shed light on what exactly a "canted footbed" means? Thanks!


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## SimonB (Oct 13, 2010)

LukeRyan said:


> Also, can someone please shed light on what exactly a "canted footbed" means? Thanks!


The base pf the binding has a cushion angled like this: 









It eases some of the stress from the ankle/knee alignment.

Much more comfortable if you have bad knees.


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## Smokehaus (Nov 2, 2010)

LukeRyan said:


> What's the gripe with the forces toe cap?
> 
> Thanks! I'll def take a look at the Raiden's!


Some people like it, some people hate it. It seems that what boot you have plays a factor but I have not had one problem with my salamon f22s. I have never personally used Raiden bindings, but I hear nothing but good things.



LukeRyan said:


> Also, can someone please shed light on what exactly a "canted footbed" means? Thanks!


Canted is really just an angled footbed and they come in different degrees. When your foot is angled it is easier on the knees and feels more natural. 

Here is a pic of some Forces with some "custom" canted footbeds.


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## LukeRyan (Jan 12, 2012)

Thanks for all the help! I've been looking at the Forces a lot and they look like a great binding! At least from the pictures I can't see what could possibly be so bad about the toe cap...?


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## jyuen (Dec 16, 2007)

rome 390's should be alright. it's supposed to be the softer of the 2 rome bindings but it's nowhere near as soft as some other bindings like the union contacts/flux rk30's i think it might be stiffer than flux sf45's too?

on a slightly unrelated note, has it been proven that canting is actually better for the knees? i mean when you do heavy squatting, you're supposed to push our knees out.. if your knees bend inward (like it would when u have canted footbeds) u do horrible damage to your knees...

i understand how it might feel more comfortable, but is it actually healthier for the rider or does it just make it easier for the lazy rider so they don't have to squat down as low to relieve pressure from the knees?


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## kctahoe (Nov 14, 2010)

There ok.... I had forces last year, got some Rome 390boss and won't look back, my forces rachets would always get stuck, and the toe cap moved around even when tight, IMO the romes are superior in everyway.


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## Smokehaus (Nov 2, 2010)

Union's older style toe strap can either be rocked as a toe cap or a normal strap. As you can see in the picture below you need to get the piece of plastic pretty much perfect on your boot or else it will slide off with some boots. If you find a used set for cheap and really dislike the toe straps you can modify these Ride 3D Thingrip Snowboard Binding Toe Strap Upgrade Kit at REI.com to fit and they work amazingly.









Here is the new 2012 Union toe cap which I have not tired but looks to be a huge upgrade for most people (as stated before I have had zero problems with my older style straps in conjunction with my boots)


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## LukeRyan (Jan 12, 2012)

From what I've been reading, it seems like the Cartel's are really a favorite of tons of people and don't have any complaints whatsoever. Thoughts?


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## Smokehaus (Nov 2, 2010)

Also as stated above some people have had problems with the Union ratchets, but mine do not do this (maybe I am lucky). 390s get a lot of talk around here and other than a little bit a tweaking when setting them up I have heard nothing but great things about them as well.


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## SimonB (Oct 13, 2010)

LukeRyan said:


> From what I've been reading, it seems like the Cartel's are really a favorite of tons of people and don't have any complaints whatsoever. Thoughts?


You can't go wrong with Cartels as they are good bindings for sure but *I* think there are superiors options out there for the same price.

BTW, I was debating between Cartels and Blackhawks and I'm glad I chose the Blackhawk.


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## CheeseForSteeze (May 11, 2011)

Union have good baseplates/heel loops and highbacks but their straps and ratchets leave quite a bit to be desired. They stick bad upon release but give good traction and positive feedback when ratcheting. The toe caps are just need some beef taken out so they can actually conform to different toe shapes.

Good all arounders would be Burton Cartel/Malavita/Prophecy, Flux SF45, K2 The Company/Uprise/Formula,


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## Unowned (Feb 5, 2011)

jyuen said:


> rome 390's should be alright. it's supposed to be the softer of the 2 rome bindings but it's nowhere near as soft as some other bindings like the union contacts/flux rk30's i think it might be stiffer than flux sf45's too?
> 
> on a slightly unrelated note, has it been proven that canting is actually better for the knees? i mean when you do heavy squatting, you're supposed to push our knees out.. if your knees bend inward (like it would when u have canted footbeds) u do horrible damage to your knees...
> 
> i understand how it might feel more comfortable, but is it actually healthier for the rider or does it just make it easier for the lazy rider so they don't have to squat down as low to relieve pressure from the knees?


Canting at 2 degrees actually causes me knee pain. I ride with a 21 inch stance at 5'6". Went back to flat....much better for me.


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## LukeRyan (Jan 12, 2012)

So if I dont have any "knee problems" then what's the point of getting canted bindings?


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## Unowned (Feb 5, 2011)

LukeRyan said:


> So if I dont have any "knee problems" then what's the point of getting canted bindings?


i dont think my stance is wide enough to warrant using them...supposedly, the wider you go - the more beneficial it is to cant. On paper, it's also suppose to help your ollies...honestly I didnt feel any difference when ollieing.


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## LukeRyan (Jan 12, 2012)

Unowned said:


> i dont think my stance is wide enough to warrant using them...supposedly, the wider you go - the more beneficial it is to cant. On paper, it's also suppose to help your ollies...honestly I didnt feel any difference when ollieing.


Bindings now come with the option to apply canted footbeds if you choose, right? So if I order a pair of bindings that come with canted footbeds I could try them out and switch them to flat footbeds if I wanted to. Is this correct?


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## Unowned (Feb 5, 2011)

LukeRyan said:


> Bindings now come with the option to apply canted footbeds if you choose, right? So if I order a pair of bindings that come with canted footbeds I could try them out and switch them to flat footbeds if I wanted to. Is this correct?


I think some come with built in cant and cannot be adjusted...someone correct me if i am wrong..you really gotta check.

the rome 390 bosses come with 0, 2, and 3.5 degree cant pads.


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## fattrav (Feb 21, 2009)

Burton Cartel would suit your needs fine, though, so would the Prophecy depending on your wallet. From what I can gather, the canting on the Burtons is not adjustable, so, you may want to look at the Rome 390 Bosses for that little bit of adjustability seeing as you're not sure about whether you'll need binding cant or not.


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## Extremo (Nov 6, 2008)

Union Force or Atlas hands down.

For anyone talking shit about Unions new split toe cap doesn't know what they're talking about. It's pretty sick and holds about as good any any other.


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## duh (Sep 7, 2011)

I don't cant because I can.

Some good "do it all" binders in my opinion- Burton Cartel, Flux TT30, Union Force. All of those have a similar flex in the baseplate and highbacks with some difference in strap/buckle feel. I personally prefer the Flux straps and adjustability.

As far as canting goes, I'm not sold. When I am standing in my shoes and about to do something strenuous my feet are usually a touch wider than shoulder width and flat on the ground. That's just how my body was designed to work.


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## LukeRyan (Jan 12, 2012)

Would pretty much everyone agree that for just 40 dollars more the Malavita are a better option than the Cartel? I'm pretty sold on getting the Cartel's but I think it's more than worth it to spend 40 dollars more for the Malavita's. Thoughts?? Also, just bought size 11.5 Nike Kaiju's, was wondering what size bindings I would need if anyone has this set up, I'd appreciate the help. Thanks!


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## easton714 (Dec 28, 2011)

FYI on canting...

A competitive bodybuilder (and personal trainer) at my gym does squats (I'm talking like a thousand pounds) on a canted floor pad. He says (for what it is worth) that when pushing your body to the limits, canting your feet at an angle perpendicular to your legs significantly reduces the stress on the ligaments of the knee and ankle because they don't have to support as much lateral movement.

It makes sense. Yes, I know the body doesn't do that naturally...but that is only because it can't (no pun intended). People use braces and other artificial things all the time to lessen the strain on their joints/ligaments/tendons/muscles. This is no different.

However, with canted snowboard bindings, we are talking about, at most, 3.5 degrees. That is not hugely significant, really, so it is about preference.

I rode for 14+ years without canted bindings. I got Rome Targas this year so I tried the canting...and I love it.

To each their own.


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## easton714 (Dec 28, 2011)

LukeRyan said:


> Would pretty much everyone agree that for just 40 dollars more the Malavita are a better option than the Cartel? I'm pretty sold on getting the Cartel's but I think it's more than worth it to spend 40 dollars more for the Malavita's. Thoughts?? Also, just bought size 11.5 Nike Kaiju's, was wondering what size bindings I would need if anyone has this set up, I'd appreciate the help. Thanks!


Not to muddy the proverbial waters but my personal experience with Burton bindings is not good (I had a ratchet break off in my hand in a store earlier this year - it helped narrow my options). If you are set on them, I'd go for the Cartels - because you may be needing to put that $40 towards new bindings fairly soon...


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## LukeRyan (Jan 12, 2012)

easton714 said:


> I rode for 14+ years without canted bindings. I got Rome Targas this year so I tried the canting...and I love it.
> 
> To each their own.


How have the Targa's been treating you??


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## easton714 (Dec 28, 2011)

LukeRyan said:


> How have the Targa's been treating you??


Excellently. But I wouldn't call them a "do it all binding". They are stiff, expensive, and a bit heavy (which is fine for freeride bindings but not ideal for anything that involves jumping).

EDIT: For "do it all", I would probably go Rome 390 (I like the Boss Decade) or Union Force (but make sure your boots fit the toe strap).


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## marcdeo (Aug 8, 2011)

easton714 said:


> Not to muddy the proverbial waters but my personal experience with Burton bindings is not good (I had a ratchet break off in my hand in a store earlier this year - it helped narrow my options). If you are set on them, I'd go for the Cartels - because you may be needing to put that $40 towards new bindings fairly soon...


Good. that leaves more cartels for people who appreciate a quality binding and know what the fuck they are talking about. Cartels are solid, sturdy, and VERY easy to find replacement parts. There's a reason why a lot of pro's still strap on cartels despite NOT being sponsored by Burton. I'm not saying that there aren't other good bindings, but just because YOU had ONE ratchet break ONE TIME in the store (who knows how many people fuck around with display items), doesn't mean they are garbage, or that he will need to save those $40 on new bindings. Get serious homie.

OP- people have given you a ton of good options. I personally use 'Vita's and Cartels. but the other options people gave you are awesome as well. For the most part it all comes down to preference. If you're worried about the price, try and grab a pair of last years models and save 50%. Or wait until the end of season sales..... (Probably not an option for you). I picked up last years Malavita's for $149, and last years cartels for $159 both new in the box. Just gotta look around.


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## LukeRyan (Jan 12, 2012)

marcdeo said:


> Good. that leaves more cartels for people who appreciate a quality binding and know what the fuck they are talking about. Cartels are solid, sturdy, and VERY easy to find replacement parts. There's a reason why a lot of pro's still strap on cartels despite NOT being sponsored by Burton. I'm not saying that there aren't other good bindings, but just because YOU had ONE ratchet break ONE TIME in the store (who knows how many people fuck around with display items), doesn't mean they are garbage, or that he will need to save those $40 on new bindings. Get serious homie.
> 
> OP- people have given you a ton of good options. I personally use 'Vita's and Cartels. but the other options people gave you are awesome as well. For the most part it all comes down to preference. If you're worried about the price, try and grab a pair of last years models and save 50%. Or wait until the end of season sales..... (Probably not an option for you). I picked up last years Malavita's for $149, and last years cartels for $159 both new in the box. Just gotta look around.


Yeah dude, I picked up last years Lib Tech TRS for $350 and last year's Nike Kaiju's for $245 and I will definitely be trying to get a deal on last years Cartel's if I can, although I am willing to spend the $230 for this years models. But all in all, I'm pretty sold on the Cartels. The only other binding I could see myself buying are either the Forces or Atlas'.


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## easton714 (Dec 28, 2011)

marcdeo said:


> Good. that leaves more cartels for people who appreciate a quality binding and know what the fuck they are talking about. Cartels are solid, sturdy, and VERY easy to find replacement parts. There's a reason why a lot of pro's still strap on cartels despite NOT being sponsored by Burton. I'm not saying that there aren't other good bindings, but just because YOU had ONE ratchet break ONE TIME in the store (who knows how many people fuck around with display items), doesn't mean they are garbage, or that he will need to save those $40 on new bindings. Get serious homie.



I was being facetious but I guess I should refrain from such complicated subtleties.

I know that Burton is big. I know a lot of people like them (they wouldn't be big if there weren't). But they also have a reputation for being crap (particularly their bindings). They have for years. 

I worked in the industry. I rode for Rossignol. I decided to re-look at Burton bindings after being out of the industry for about 10 years because they were, well, fairly cheap, and a ratchet broke in my hand on the first one I touched.

I am sorry that you missed the facetiousness of the $40 comment but it doesn't make my experience any less valid.

Similarly, talking like a fourteen year-old asshat doesn't make your opinion more valid than mine.


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## snowklinger (Aug 30, 2011)

2cents: I like my K2 Auto Uprises. Mid-stiff, very supportive, not a super tight bomber by any means but secure, nice. About a million times more responsive than my 15 year old t9's or last years contrabands (did not work for me, but some ppl love em).


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## Nivek (Jan 24, 2008)

The cut out is huge. Can cause problems if your boot isnt the right shape for the gaping hole.

Also look at the Phantoms from Raiden. Also check out the Salomon Chief, Flux SF45, or Flow NXT-AT (though if you decide on Flow you really might want to wait for 2013, big changes).


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## huckfin (Dec 9, 2010)

i have a pair of cartels and i have a pair of union forces; i ride mostly all mountain stuff, natural hits and lots of backcountry terrain, i have never had a bad day on the forces, i have had plenty of so-so days on the cartels, they are light and comfy but they give up a little support to the forces. the unions are a little heavy and clunky but i continually go back to the forces for my everyday binding... i usually have my cartels mounted on my second board but will likely get rid of them as it seems every time i ride them i'm wishing i had my unions. just my two cents... they are both solid choices.


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## d15 (Jan 12, 2012)

marcdeo said:


> I picked up last years Malavita's for $149, and last years cartels for $159 both new in the box. Just gotta look around.


I'm in Canada. Where did you get your bindings?


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## LukeRyan (Jan 12, 2012)

huckfin said:


> i have a pair of cartels and i have a pair of union forces; i ride mostly all mountain stuff, natural hits and lots of backcountry terrain, i have never had a bad day on the forces, i have had plenty of so-so days on the cartels, they are light and comfy but they give up a little support to the forces. the unions are a little heavy and clunky but i continually go back to the forces for my everyday binding... i usually have my cartels mounted on my second board but will likely get rid of them as it seems every time i ride them i'm wishing i had my unions. just my two cents... they are both solid choices.


I've been hearing a lot of complaints with the Force's toe cap though. They must fit your boots quite well. What kind of boots do you have? Also, do you know if the Force's toe cap fits well with the Nike Zoom Kaiju boots, cause I just picked those up.


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## claus (Nov 22, 2010)

LukeRyan said:


> I've been hearing a lot of complaints with the Force's toe cap though. They must fit your boots quite well. What kind of boots do you have? Also, do you know if the Force's toe cap fits well with the Nike Zoom Kaiju boots, cause I just picked those up.


After some adjustment to the length on my 2011 Forces toe strap I haven't had any problems with them. I wear Burton AWOLS and they fit nicely with the binding. Wish I could help with the Nike boots, but I've never worn them.


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## Smokehaus (Nov 2, 2010)

I know some people have tried many different setups on their forces (Leo comes to mind) and were just not able to get them to work with their boots, but I feel that 90% of the hate for the toe strap is people just not setting them up properly (same thing with the 390s most will argue).


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## LukeRyan (Jan 12, 2012)

Smokehaus said:


> I know some people have tried many different setups on their forces (Leo comes to mind) and were just not able to get them to work with their boots, but I feel that 90% of the hate for the toe strap is people just not setting them up properly (same thing with the 390s most will argue).


Why would people complain before tampering with the adjustment of their bindings? Are they difficult to adjust or something? Cause to be honest, I'm really torn between Cartel's, Force's and Atlas'


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## Smokehaus (Nov 2, 2010)

I am not going to run around and point fingers, but people in general find problems with any product and would rather complain than try to find a solution. Are there people out there who have treid every set up possible and they just won't work for their boots? Of course, but I have multiple friends with forces from different years and different boots and after properly adjusting the toe strap the slipping went away.

This is just my personal experience with forces and would like to hear what other people have to say about setting them up.


EDIT: This is for the 2011 models and back. I have no experience with the 2012 toe caps.


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## huckfin (Dec 9, 2010)

my forces are 3 years old, old toe straps, but i cut out the toe piece so the basically are just like the 2012; they cup the toe of my boot perfectly, before i did that, yes.. they were annoying and would slip off the toe of the boot.. simple 5 minute modification, 2 strips of duct tape and a few zip ties.. solid fix.

oh and i have two pairs of boots with similar toes.. the dk zooms and the 32 lashed. toe fit is solid on both, after the mod that is.. i just did this 2-3 rides ago and it made a huge difference.. was previously my only complaint about the binding.. was going to buy 2012 straps but the shop talked me out of it and just told me to mod the ones i have.


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## LukeRyan (Jan 12, 2012)

Yeah, this entire time were people talking about the 2011 Force's? Because i know Union modified the toe strap for 2012 and if people aren't referring to the 2012's, then it's a whole different ball game


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## Extremo (Nov 6, 2008)

I swapped out my 2011 Force toe strap with the burton get-a-grip strap, and honestly the original force strap applies more pressure and response than the burton stap does. I am actually pretty dissapointed. The only toe strap I've found to be superior to Union's is the Flux cap on the super titans. Which it appears they have now modified as well. But bottom line, Union's toe straps are pretty decent.


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## LukeRyan (Jan 12, 2012)

Extremo said:


> I swapped out my 2011 Force toe strap with the burton get-a-grip strap, and honestly the original force strap applies more pressure and response than the burton stap does. I am actually pretty dissapointed. The only toe strap I've found to be superior to Union's is the Flux cap on the super titans. Which it appears they have now modified as well. But bottom line, Union's toe straps are pretty decent.


Did you have to adjust the toe straps at all? And what kind of boots do you use with your forces?


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## Extremo (Nov 6, 2008)

I ride 2009 Vans Andreas Wiig's. The Union straps fit just the way they're supposed to, semi-capped with the front plastic lip down in front of the toe. With the burton caps, I had to modify the ends to get them to fit but once I removed the excess plastic they slid right into place. They've got a little more give to them than the Union strap, and I was looking for a little more response. The new Union split strap feels super secure, but I haven't ridden them. I've only strapped them in at the shop, but even so I noticed a dramatic difference in pressure than with the burton straps.


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