# Union 2012 vs. Rome 2012



## BigO5659 (Mar 29, 2011)

Anyone get to demo these two brands yet for 2012? Anyone know the MSRP's of the models? Looking into Targas, 390's (boss or not idk if I really need the canting), Union Atlas '12 and Contact Pro '12. Any info on any of these models is much appreciated!

5'7
195 lbs
size 10 boot
'12 Bataleon ET 157

Sticking to groomers and going to start learning park next season.


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## Nivek (Jan 24, 2008)

Rome>Union.

Unions new toe strap is terrible. The new one on the Targas is better than this years.


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## BigO5659 (Mar 29, 2011)

how bout Flux? I like the Rk30 and TT30.


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## eastCOASTkills (Aug 5, 2009)

Rome makes awesome bindings. I'd go with 390 Bosses. you wont be disappointed.


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## rgrwilco (Oct 15, 2007)

After this season of trying basically all the major binding companies, i will address the three mentioned so far in this thread.

Rome: super comfortable, but i feel like im riding up on risers for some reason. cant options are nice.

Union: i have decided i cannot physically ride unions. their straps cause some terrible foot pain for me.

Flux: super comfortable and solid binding. best toe strap i have encountered and no pressure points.


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## BigO5659 (Mar 29, 2011)

I just don't like my gut feeling about Union's. They seem to be very well made as far as quality goes but between the sizing problems that I may encounter with my boot size depending on the brand I buy, and the comfort of the other 2 bindings, I think I am going to focus on Rome and Flux. Models I have decided on are Targas, 390's, DS30's (2012 green/purple/yellow looks SICK), and TT30's. Hoping to hear some in depth reviews on the Flux bindings as there are lots on the Rome's.


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## Nivek (Jan 24, 2008)

DS30's are not a good replacement for the DS45's. They felt softer. More like what I though the RK's would feel like. They matched up well on a 147 Kink.

Honestly my favorite bindings for 2012 are Raiden Zeros. I liked Flux, but none of them had the level of dampening I want. Nothing more than base and some EVA. Ride doesn't make Nitranes the same anymore. Flow, same as Flux. The Raidens were as comfy as Flux and Rome (not as comfy as Flow, but nothing would be) but provided the dampening I want. Them Airbags are money.


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## BigO5659 (Mar 29, 2011)

In your opinion would a softer or stiffer binding be better for an intermediate-expert groomer rider looking to get into park? The TT30 seems more stiff than the DS30 according to tech specs. Better for the ET? Keep in mind I am also fairly heavy being 195 lbs


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## BurtonAvenger (Aug 14, 2007)

Well made and Union should never be in the same sentence.


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## Nivek (Jan 24, 2008)

Well, you would probably like Zeros on that. 

For Flux 2012 try some DMCC Lights.


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## BigO5659 (Mar 29, 2011)

BurtonAvenger said:


> Well made and Union should never be in the same sentence.


How so? From their tech videos (yes I realize it is company produced propaganda) they claim to have some high quality materials and craftsmanship in their bindings.


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## BigO5659 (Mar 29, 2011)

Nivek said:


> Well, you would probably like Zeros on that.
> 
> For Flux 2012 try some DMCC Lights.


Raiden Zero's? I haven't heard anything about this binding


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## Nivek (Jan 24, 2008)

BigO5659 said:


> Raiden Zero's? I haven't heard anything about this binding


Yeah pretty much. They just don't have the presence to get noticed yet. I will be riding them next year.


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## Hodgepodge (Dec 9, 2010)

Nivek said:


> Yeah pretty much. They just don't have the presence to get noticed yet. I will be riding them next year.


im thinkin about picking some up too. good to match up with a T. Rice?


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## BurtonAvenger (Aug 14, 2007)

BigO5659 said:


> How so? From their tech videos (yes I realize it is company produced propaganda) they claim to have some high quality materials and craftsmanship in their bindings.


I could make a tech video saying a polished turd is the best doesn't mean its anything more than a turd.


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## Hodgepodge (Dec 9, 2010)

BurtonAvenger said:


> I could make a tech video saying a polished turd is the best doesn't mean its anything more than a turd.


case and point


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## BigO5659 (Mar 29, 2011)

BurtonAvenger said:


> I could make a tech video saying a polished turd is the best doesn't mean its anything more than a turd.


What's your reasoning? I'm strictly un-bias and have seen other boards like this one and other reviews that say otherwise.


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## twin89 (Jan 21, 2009)

Does Union do ANY research on how their product works before producing a whole line of bindings? It doesn't seem like they do since nearly everyone that has tried the new toe strap says it is worse. It can't be that hard to make a toe strap cmon.


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## Qball (Jun 22, 2010)

BigO5659 said:


> What's your reasoning? I'm strictly un-bias and have seen other boards like this one and other reviews that say otherwise.


I would trust BA before I would trust some marketing video I saw on the company's website. He gets to try lots of gear so I wouldn't say there is any bias. If you want good bindings, you can't go wrong with some K2 formulas


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## BigO5659 (Mar 29, 2011)

twin89 said:


> Does Union do ANY research on how their product works before producing a whole line of bindings? It doesn't seem like they do since nearly everyone that has tried the new toe strap says it is worse. It can't be that hard to make a toe strap cmon.


I do wonder why the toe cap or webbing isnt standard on bindings. Ive heard Rome's conformist is pretty good but it still doesn't look like a great toe binding. I have no personal experience just stating how the strap looks in pics. I would welcome any input on how this toe strap is "comnforming" like the trademark entails. There are plenty of bindings that you can tell are comfy just by the looks of the straps but Flux and Technine both make toe straps that are appealing to me.


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## BigO5659 (Mar 29, 2011)

Qball said:


> I would trust BA before I would trust some marketing video I saw on the company's website. He gets to try lots of gear so I wouldn't say there is any bias. If you want good bindings, you can't go wrong with some K2 formulas


I've read his posts in the boards section so I am familiar with his experience. Just so we're clear, it's not that I do not trust him, just like to hear the reasoning, which I am sure there is plenty of.


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## twin89 (Jan 21, 2009)

BigO5659 said:


> I do wonder why the toe cap or webbing isnt standard on bindings. Ive heard Rome's conformist is pretty good but it still doesn't look like a great toe binding. I have no personal experience just stating how the strap looks in pics. I would welcome any input on how this toe strap is "comnforming" like the trademark entails. There are plenty of bindings that you can tell are comfy just by the looks of the straps but Flux and Technine both make toe straps that are appealing to me.



Go with Flux over technine, tech9 is kinda shit when it comes to bindings.


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## BigO5659 (Mar 29, 2011)

I have my list pretty much narrowed down to 390's and some flux models. jus waiting to hear some prices. If I find a good deal on some some of this years Boss or TT30's ima prolly jump on em though


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## BigO5659 (Mar 29, 2011)

add flows to the list as well. just peeped what they got coming this next season and it all looks good. just like the TBT that intrigued me about Bataleon, the easy access and consistency def have my attn (the bindings I have experience with were not consistent nor comfortable like flow lovers boast theirs to be)


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## TofuSama (May 20, 2010)

BigO5659 said:


> I have my list pretty much narrowed down to 390's and some flux models. jus waiting to hear some prices. If I find a good deal on some some of this years Boss or TT30's ima prolly jump on em though


That's pretty much what I'm down to, the 390 Bosses or the TT30's. Depending on what I can hunt down, but I like the bosses more in terms of reviews I've seen and looks, so win win, aside from the extra price.


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## ptapia (Dec 1, 2010)

I was in a similar situation. I was between the rk30s and the bosses. I heard more good things about the bosses so I went with the bosses. 

I can't speak for flux, but after a season with the bosses they are a great binding. Very comfy. Good Response. I'm happy with my purchase. 

As for the conformist toe strap, it does exactly as it says. As you ratchet down the strap conforms to the shape of your boot. 

Word of advice, if you care about aesthetics, the bosses may not be for you. IF you don't already know about the paint chipping issue, search it. The paint will chip after one ride. 

Also some people have issues with the ladders and ratchets. I haven't experienced much of that. 

Either way, Rome has an amazing warranty department and they will work with you. One of the reps contacted me here, and chatted with me about the warranty department, which I thought was pretty cool. 

I wouldn't want anything else at this point. 390 Bosses are solid.


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## Leo (Nov 24, 2009)

I had some rough patches with Rome 390 Bosses, but Rome more than resolved all of my issues promptly. For 2012, my best guess is that these problems won't be present. This is because the replacement ladders that they sent me were the 2012 ones.

I loved my Romes so much that I sold my Flow bindings so I can replace it with a pair of 2012 Targas when they come out. And a lot of people here can tell you that I've been a huge Flow supporter around here (I still am and plan on getting ATSE sometime) 

Here's a couple of major observations I made in terms of Union supporters:

1) A good majority of them are coming off some old or entry level bindings so Union looks seems like gold to them

2) A shit ton of them haven't had their fair shake of other quality bindings

3) They bash other bindings and companies without any real experience with them. It's usually "binding A sucks because my friend's ladder snapped" or "binding B sucks because I hear about so much breakage issues"

4) Union fanboys are hardcore to the point that they will jump into discussions about another binding company to push their Union propaganda thus making it look like a Godsend binding company to the unsuspecting noob


And yes, I am pushing anti-Union propaganda now as well. I call it revenge for all the Flow threads that degraded into Union debates thanks to these Union lovers.

I demoed 2012 Union Force and Contact Pro. I hated both. Crappy toe ratchets, absurdly poor fitting toe cap, and no canting. They were light though! 

I also demoed the 2012 Rome Targas. Let me tell you one thing about them... AWESOME! They changed their highback and toe strap for next year. The Conformist ToeStrap 3.0 has now replaced Ride ThinGrips as my favorite toe strap. Hugs your boot for dear life.


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## BigO5659 (Mar 29, 2011)

Leo said:


> I had some rough patches with Rome 390 Bosses, but Rome more than resolved all of my issues promptly. For 2012, my best guess is that these problems won't be present. This is because the replacement ladders that they sent me were the 2012 ones.
> 
> I loved my Romes so much that I sold my Flow bindings so I can replace it with a pair of 2012 Targas when they come out. And a lot of people here can tell you that I've been a huge Flow supporter around here (I still am and plan on getting ATSE sometime)
> 
> ...


Well said Leo. Thank you for including your experiences as well for reasoning. The fact that you don't support union yet still demo their bindings objectively is a testament to your opinion as well. That being said, for an MSRP of 209.99 Flow's 2012 Five SE looks like a solid binding for the price. Thoughts? I am mainly looking for opinions on FLux and Flow bindings now. The 390 Boss has plenty of reviews.


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## Leo (Nov 24, 2009)

What are your intentions with the Flows?

If you are looking for the most foot comfort, Flows are an excellent choice. Also, if you love to carve, Flow bindings give you superb edge to edge response. The trade-off however is reduced response for your bi-lateral(?) movements. Sorry, the terms always confuse me haha. I'm talking about as if you are doing an ollie or nollie or nose/tail presses. Traditional bindings, especially with canting, offer greater response in that department.

Flows are also great if you frequent a small local hill. Quick in and out is less taxing on you as opposed to constantly bending/sitting down to strap in.

If you aren't too concerned with any of the above, I suggest you forgo the Flows. I have no experience with the Fives. I've only ridden the Flite, Flite 3, M9SE, NXT-ATSE, and NXT-FSE. All were good with the Flite series being sub-par. The ATSE and FSE are a good margin stiffer than the M9SE with the FSE being the stiffest of the group.

I did demo the 2012 Flux RK30 as well. Love those bindings. Mid-soft flex overall, but the highbacks flex more than the chasis due to the urethane. The only thing I wish it had was more dampening. Fits a little wide in the toe (likely due to Flux being a Japanese brand... Asians have wider toe boxes).

On the Union subject again... I have no problems with continuing to demo their products. I just expected so much considering the hype they get. I walked away unimpressed. In the end, it got me down the mountain. In terms of a personal purchase, I will never even consider it until they design a better toe strap, ratchet, and include canting (not sure if their other models have it, but the ones I tested didn't).


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## BigO5659 (Mar 29, 2011)

Well right now I am looking for a binding that will be a good binding to learn the park on but still keeping it easy to carve while bombing down. I've gotten to the point where I want to start getting air instead of just flying down the groomers. Jibbing/presses really isnt a big concern for me at this point. 

Do you like the canting options that well? I just can't seem to grasp how it would be that beneficial. It makes me think of the Knee Savers I used to use playing catcher lol but how does it actually make the binding feel? Best terms that you can put it...


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## dmcdmc (Mar 10, 2011)

i have an old pair of rome 390s (from '08) and ride between 15 and 25 days a season and theyre still going strong..and I don't baby my stuff.

I lost the sub-base padding for one of the bindings (a rubber pad that goes between the baseplate and board) over the summer. I e-mailed rome and they sent me a new one for free (even though I was technically out of warrenty). So that's saying something about their customer support.

As for the toe strap, it's pretty good. Since its mushy, it molds around the boot and doesn't create any pressure points. Can't speak for the other brands mentioned.


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## schmitty34 (Dec 28, 2007)

Leo said:


> What are your intentions with the Flows?


He intends to take her into the back room and have his way with her whether her dad likes it or not....

Sorry, I could not resist. 

One more vote for Rome bindings. My 390s are 3 seasons in and still work great. My toe strap snapped last year when someone rode over it getting off the lift and the warranty department sent two replacements (just the little plastic thing that attaches the strap) right away with no questions asked.


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## BigO5659 (Mar 29, 2011)

schmitty34 said:


> He intends to take her into the back room and have his way with her whether her dad likes it or not....


The '12 lineup looks that sexy let's be honest.


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## oskar (Nov 23, 2010)

+1 for 390s, most awesome binding I've ever had the pleasure of riding.


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## Leo (Nov 24, 2009)

I'm a big stickler for comfort in my boots and bindings. Thus far, Flow has had unparalleled comfort. I get 0 foot pain no matter how much I shred. The problem lately has been knee issues. I widened my stance last season and widened a little more this season. I found that the canted footbeds in my Rome's alleviated this discomfort in my knees. And to be very honest, they are pretty comfortable on my feet too. I do get soreness if I've been riding a ton like I did in Tahoe... 9-9 in powder.

Canted footbeds also help to squeeze out more pop from your snowboard. It's not a ton and is by no means the reason why someone should opt for canted footbeds. It's just a nice little extra.

So if you have a wide stance, you might really like canting.


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## jliu (Jan 20, 2009)

Leo said:


> I had some rough patches with Rome 390 Bosses, but Rome more than resolved all of my issues promptly. For 2012, my best guess is that these problems won't be present. This is because the replacement ladders that they sent me were the 2012 ones.


Hey Leo, how do you know you received the 2012 ladders? Were they thicker or something? I received a ton of ladders from rome...and the ladders look the same to me :dunno:


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## BigO5659 (Mar 29, 2011)

I actually think I'm going to use a somewhat wide base (longer than shoulder width at least). Basing this on the fact that i squat with a wide base. A more narrow base might help control the board but when I start hitting kickers a wide base will help me balance better.


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## Leo (Nov 24, 2009)

jliu said:


> Hey Leo, how do you know you received the 2012 ladders? Were they thicker or something? I received a ton of ladders from rome...and the ladders look the same to me :dunno:


Could be ladders off the Targas dunno. I just know I saw those black inner toe strap ladders on the 2012 Targas. The part that locks into the base snaps in way more snug. I have to force it out now. My stock ones would just drop.

They also look different from my stock ones other than the color. My stock ones had a Rome symbol on it. The replacements just say Rome on it. I forgot the exact design (I'm at work), but it's different. Replacement ones > stock ones.


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## rocs (Dec 1, 2009)

what do you guys think of the ride nitranes? scored a new pair of 2011's for $80. never had interest in them but i know i can always sell em for more than i got em for. i was shooting for the RK30's next season and hearing about wide toe box is a plus ( yes i am asian and i have a friggin huge big toe ). But if the nitranes are solid enough i'll just keep em and use em for next year.


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## Nivek (Jan 24, 2008)

rocs said:


> what do you guys think of the ride nitranes? scored a new pair of 2011's for $80. never had interest in them but i know i can always sell em for more than i got em for. i was shooting for the RK30's next season and hearing about wide toe box is a plus ( yes i am asian and i have a friggin huge big toe ). But if the nitranes are solid enough i'll just keep em and use em for next year.


When I used an 11-13 thong on my 7-9's they were one of my favorite bindings this year.


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## rocs (Dec 1, 2009)

thanks, i'll probably stick to the nitranes then. sorry for thread jacking on the nitranes but there are quite a few bindings out there that get good reviews, it's tough to pick which ones right for you unless you try it out i guess.


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## jliu (Jan 20, 2009)

Leo said:


> Could be ladders off the Targas dunno. I just know I saw those black inner toe strap ladders on the 2012 Targas. The part that locks into the base snaps in way more snug. I have to force it out now. My stock ones would just drop.
> 
> They also look different from my stock ones other than the color. My stock ones had a Rome symbol on it. The replacements just say Rome on it. I forgot the exact design (I'm at work), but it's different. Replacement ones > stock ones.


Hrmm...interesting. Yea mine still have that rome star at the end of the ladders...maybe i'll ask them for the "2012" ones..


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## TofuSama (May 20, 2010)

I'm curious as to whether or not the canted beds of the bosses are worth the extra 20 or whatever dollar difference for someone who takes a relatively normal stance width. I'm 5'9' roughly, and I use a stance width of 19 inches, shoulder width of 18 inches, lower leg length of 20 inches. I might change to a 20 inch stance width once I get my new setup in the fall. I'm pretty well set on getting the 390s or bosses when I order my new setup, unless I find a deal on TT30s when I get around to ordering stuff in.


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## Nose Dradamous (Jul 19, 2010)

Leo said:


> I had some rough patches with Rome 390 Bosses, but Rome more than resolved all of my issues promptly. For 2012, my best guess is that these problems won't be present. This is because the replacement ladders that they sent me were the 2012 ones.
> 
> I loved my Romes so much that I sold my Flow bindings so I can replace it with a pair of 2012 Targas when they come out. And a lot of people here can tell you that I've been a huge Flow supporter around here (I still am and plan on getting ATSE sometime)
> 
> ...


Hey Unions aren't for everyone. Nor are Burtons, Flux or T9. There's a wide range of choices out there and it's really up to you to figure out what works for YOU. 

And yes I'm a fan boy, I also work for Union. Never had a ratchet problem, broke 1 ladder strap in 7 years of riding the bindings. The toe straps are combo straps. To be run either cap or regular. When adjusted properly the work great, when not they blow. There is a new toe strap out next year. The samples and demo's that were out for retailers to try these past months were samples. After the demo's, from feedback the toe strap was totally overhauled. There is now two sizes to it, the hole has been narrowed also, allowing it to form around the toe nicer. 

That being said, maybe Unions aren't the right choice for people that shred the Detroit area who are coming off riding Flows. Maybe a better choice for you would of been the K2 Cinch.


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## outlyr (Dec 20, 2010)

BigO5659 said:


> I have my list pretty much narrowed down to 390's and some flux models. jus waiting to hear some prices. If I find a good deal on some some of this years Boss or TT30's ima prolly jump on em though


TT30's are $149.96/shipped at Shoreline of Tahoe.
Flux TT30 Snowboard Bindings · Snowboard Bindings · SHORELINE of TAHOE


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## Leo (Nov 24, 2009)

Nose Dradamous said:


> Hey Unions aren't for everyone. Nor are Burtons, Flux or T9. There's a wide range of choices out there and it's really up to you to figure out what works for YOU.
> 
> And yes I'm a fan boy, I also work for Union. Never had a ratchet problem, broke 1 ladder strap in 7 years of riding the bindings. The toe straps are combo straps. To be run either cap or regular. When adjusted properly the work great, when not they blow. There is a new toe strap out next year. The samples and demo's that were out for retailers to try these past months were samples. After the demo's, from feedback the toe strap was totally overhauled. There is now two sizes to it, the hole has been narrowed also, allowing it to form around the toe nicer.
> 
> That being said, maybe Unions aren't the right choice for people that shred the Detroit area who are coming off riding Flows. Maybe a better choice for you would of been the K2 Cinch.


I'm not riding off Flows only. I have just favored them for their comfort. I now own 390 Bosses. I have had Ride bindings in the past. I have supported Flow and pushed them as great bindings more so for their comfort than the ease of entry. The edge to edge response on Flows are also superior to traditional straps.

I'm not saying Union is absolutely horrible. It's more to do with the real let-down I experienced considering all the hype they get. I'm more than happy to demo more of them if the chance arises. I am more so targeting my comments to your fan-base. Being a fan is one thing, being a fanboy is another story. And I talk the way I do on this particular forum because of the length of time I have been here and due to the many epic debates over Flow vs Unions.

I am telling people exactly what I experienced demoing your bindings. Really sticky toe ratchets and poor fitting toe straps.

Also, I totally understand that some bindings require more attention to adjustments (Flows, Romes, Ride contraband) however, these other bindings serve a unique purpose once you adjust them. Flows for speed of entry and foot comfort... Romes for canting and size tweaks... Ride contrabands for fitment and ease of entry after it is set... The union toe straps/caps are just toe strap/caps. So basically, you have to do a lot of adjusting to make Union toe caps fit like any other decent toe cap. There's no reward for the amount of adjusting you have to do.

Yes, I am talking about demo pairs and if you guys addressed these issues, then that's awesome! I can't wait to try them. 

By the way, I didn't say anything about durability as there's no way possible for me to do that when I only demoed them. Furthermore, I don't see what you Detroit comment had to do with anything. All it did was serve a condescending purpose. Yea, I ride mainly in greater Detroit... what's that got to do with it? I jib logs here and hit gaps just like anyone else out west. The only difference is that they have more options terrain-wise and better snow.


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## Nose Dradamous (Jul 19, 2010)

Leo, relax. Let your Flow go. But really, you should try the Cinches. I bet you'd love them.


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## Leo (Nov 24, 2009)

Nose Dradamous said:


> Leo, relax. Let your Flow go. But really, you should try the Cinches. I bet you'd love them.


Lol I am relaxed. You're just making assumptions. 

I like K2 Autos. Never felt the need to try cinches. 

In the end, I'll continue to support Rome, K2, Ride, few Burtons, and Flow. Union is still a big no for me regardless of where I ride.

By the way, you are basically putting down your Detroit fanbase with your previous comment.


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## jliu (Jan 20, 2009)

Nose Dradamous said:


> Leo, relax. Let your Flow go. But really, you should try the Cinches. I bet you'd love them.


Whether you actually do work for union or not...I've just lost some respect for this company...well done.


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## Leo (Nov 24, 2009)

jliu said:


> Whether you actually do work for union or not...I've just lost some respect for this company...well done.


To be fair, he's only one of many. I wouldn't exactly take his actions as a representation of the company as a whole. 

It's along the same lines as why I put that disclaimer in my signature :laugh:


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## BurtonAvenger (Aug 14, 2007)

Honesty hurts and some companies just can't handle the truth.


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## Starsky (Aug 31, 2010)

i have the new 390's... wouldnt get them if i were you. Great bindings but they fall apart so quickly 

had them 3 months and they are fucked


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## fatboyj711 (Feb 1, 2010)

Leo said:


> Lol I am relaxed. You're just making assumptions.
> 
> I like K2 Autos. Never felt the need to try cinches.
> 
> ...


So you put down Union fanboys because of the *assumption* that they haven't tried other bindings, yet someone very well known and respected in the industry with a ton of experience recommends that you try a specific model (not even Union) based on your well documented preferences and you reply that you've "never felt the need to try them"... Ironic at all?

And the assumption that all Union fanboys blindly support the company without trying other bindings is just that... an assumption. There are plenty of riders who've tried a ton of different brands/models who actually prefer Union for specific reasons. Not to mention, there are a ton of people who actually like the different iterations of the Union toe strap (even some who preferred the old convertible strap that a lot of people complained about). In the end, it's all preference.

I have no dog in this fight considering I've tried Union bindings and they weren't for me, but the constant attack on Union on this board, whether it be the fanboys, hype, whatever... is getting out of hand.


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## Nose Dradamous (Jul 19, 2010)

Leo, see...maybe you need a cup of coffee, then you'll wake up and see what I was implying. Thanks Fboy for eXplaining my intentions.


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## Leo (Nov 24, 2009)

fatboyj711 said:


> So you put down Union fanboys because of the *assumption* that they haven't tried other bindings, yet someone very well known and respected in the industry with a ton of experience recommends that you try a specific model (not even Union) based on your well documented preferences and you reply that you've "never felt the need to try them"... Ironic at all?
> 
> And the assumption that all Union fanboys blindly support the company without trying other bindings is just that... an assumption. There are plenty of riders who've tried a ton of different brands/models who actually prefer Union for specific reasons. Not to mention, there are a ton of people who actually like the different iterations of the Union toe strap (even some who preferred the old convertible strap that a lot of people complained about). In the end, it's all preference.
> 
> I have no dog in this fight considering I've tried Union bindings and they weren't for me, but the constant attack on Union on this board, whether it be the fanboys, hype, whatever... is getting out of hand.


If you're going to attack me, then I suggest you thoroughly read my posts first. Unless this is a matter of your reading comprehension in which case, I can say nothing about.

I said I made *OBSERVATIONS* of these fanboys. You also fail to realize the difference between fans and fanboys. There's a stark contrast. Fanboys blindly follow a particular brand, in this case, Union was used as an example. I've asked countless Union supporters on this forum and another how many other bindings they have tried or what bindings they have come off of. What I posted previously reflects the answers I have received. Fans are people who have come to support a particular brand after trying many others and finding that it is their preference.

You love Union because they work for you? Then awesome! What I am constantly attacking is the MEGA HYPE they have been receiving. I've even been told multiple times (again, this is an actual instance, not an assumption) "Wait until you try Unions bro". I said nothing negative about Unions until I actually got on two different models for 2012. I disliked both. Yes, it was the toe straps and ratchets that turned me off. Also, no cantbed options or at least better dampening in the base.

Yes, I am a little aggressive with my Union posts, but I've said it countless times... CONSIDER IT PAYBACK FOR THE NUMEROUS FLOW BINDING THREADS THAT DEGRADED INTO TRASH TALKING AND HYPE ABOUT UNION. At least I'm not on here trashing Union as a company like they did with Flow. I'm giving my thoughts on their bindings and observations about their fanboys.

Now let's get into your ignorant remark about cinches. Where's the irony? I used Flow for their comfort. That's something only Flow provides since their strap system is unique to their brand. The ease of entry was a side benefit from it. My thoughts on that is well documented as you said. Again, I suspect your lack of reading comprehension here. 

If I want quick entry bindings solely for the speed, I'll consider cinches. Otherwise, I rather just get a normal traditional binding or even their Auto line. Still don't see the irony there. And sorry, taking Nose's reply in its entirety, the Cinch recommendation didn't come across as being genuine. It was condescending at best considering his Detroit comment.

By the way, unlike Union fanboys, this Flow fan is willing to try more Unions and actually hopes they improved their design. Til then, I'm gonna continue giving my thoughts on people asking about Union bindings.

And in case you're wondering or before you make an assumption, I'm perfectly relaxed and happy. I actually just farted too. Thinking about picking some earwax out next. Deciding on which ear to do first.


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## Leo (Nov 24, 2009)

Nose Dradamous said:


> Leo, see...maybe you need a cup of coffee, then you'll wake up and see what I was implying. Thanks Fboy for eXplaining my intentions.


I had plenty, thanks for your concern. Maybe you should do some lines so you can wake up and see that even Rossignol has better toe caps on their snowboard bindings. 

By the way Nose, if you're here to officially represent Union... you're not really doing a good job of it buddy. Ironic in that you post in a thread comparing your Brand to Rome. You might want to do some searches and see how Rome handles concerns about their products on here.

If you can't take criticism, then don't read the negative posts. Simple concept really. This is a snowboarding forum on the Interwebz that is heavy in gear talk. I'm not the only one that dislikes your toe straps and ratchets. 

There's a big reason why some of your supporters frankenstein their toe straps on your bindings. Furthermore, companies can learn a lot from their customers. On the flip side, they also stand to learn a great deal from their haters as well. Might want to keep that in mind


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## fatboyj711 (Feb 1, 2010)

So when you use the word "fanboy", you're only hating on a handful of people you've communicated with on the interwebz... or are you making assumptions again based on a ridiculously small sample?

Also, the Cinches may be more comfortable than Flows and better fullfill the attributes that traditional bindings bring to the table for you. You never know until you demo them right?

BTW, we're all making OBSERVATIONS here...


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## Nose Dradamous (Jul 19, 2010)

Thanks for the insight Leo. Appreciate you taking the time to tell me what's up. Will take that into consideration next time I make a post here.


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## Leo (Nov 24, 2009)

fatboyj711 said:


> So when you use the word "fanboy", you're only hating on a handful of people you've communicated with on the interwebz... or are you making assumptions again based on a ridiculously small sample?
> 
> Also, the Cinches may be more comfortable than Flows and better fullfill the attributes that traditional bindings bring to the table for you. You never know until you demo them right?
> 
> BTW, we're all making OBSERVATIONS here...


Of course. No amount of communicating can be done on my part to get a substantial sample of the whole population. However, we are talking about Internet Forums. The game changes here. Many of us are regulars in many forums especially other snowboarding related ones. A sample here is more meaningful in terms of just Internet snowboarding forums, not the whole rider population out there.

You guys make it seem like I'm bashing Union as a company. Absolutely not the case. I've said it before and I'll say it again here... Union reps are awesome guys. I straight up told them what I didn't like about the bindings at the demo. That's not the case here.

If someone asks me about a certain gear, I'm going to speak my mind.

Your Cinch comment again is... There's nothing special about their straps that separate them from the other traditional strap K2 bindings. Bottom line, in my own experience and opinion, no two separate strap binding that I have tried is as comfortable on the foot as Flow's cap design. Flow has spent their whole existence in creating and optimizing their cap to reduce pressure points. That is its best feature and I have said that plenty of times.

By the way, I don't know Nose Dramus. Also, I don't care if he's Obama. Just because he's highly respected by those that know him, doesn't mean I'm going to keep my mouth shut when he makes a comment about where I live and ride and makes an assumption as to the probability of that being the reason I like Flows. Come on... really? 

Your username is fatboy... I guess that means you probably shouldn't snowboard because you might catch a heart attack. You should try golf instead. That was a genuine recommendation as I'm looking out for your health.


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## Nose Dradamous (Jul 19, 2010)

What shop do you work at? Modern?


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## Leo (Nov 24, 2009)

Nose Dradamous said:


> Thanks for the insight Leo. Appreciate you taking the time to tell me what's up. Will take that into consideration next time I make a post here.


Feeling is mutual kind sir. I appreciate your Cinch recommendation. Will take that into consideration the next time I'm at the K2 tent.

Edit: Doesn't really matter what shop I work at. I'm not here officially representing them 

Says it right in my sig. But I'm guessing you're going call me a big mouth either way. My opinions are mine and mine only. Union reps = awesome guys. Union bindings = not my favorite by a long mile.


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## Nose Dradamous (Jul 19, 2010)

Big mouth, nah. You have an opinion. I respect that.


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## fatboyj711 (Feb 1, 2010)

Leo said:


> Your username is fatboy... I guess that means you probably shouldn't snowboard because you might catch a heart attack. You should try golf instead. That was a genuine recommendation as I'm looking out for your health.


Haha... I don't get how this is analogous to the K2 comment, considering there's a _wealth of information_ about your binding preferences on this forum and only a my screen name to base your assumption on... but good one none the less. I do love golf though... 

Is Leonardo your real name? I've never met a dude with Leo as his legal name so none must exist.


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## Leo (Nov 24, 2009)

Nose Dradamous said:


> Big mouth, nah. You have an opinion. I respect that.


Haha, wouldn't be the first time though. Look, we got off on the wrong foot here. I'm really not trying to trash your company. Yes, I am bitter and jaded by all the hypers. 

Let's not have our differences in gear preferences start spilling onto a personal level. 

I'm just an average rider who loves the sport the same as you and everyone else here. I am very opinionated, but I try to stay unbiased.

With that said, you're a dick for that Detroit comment.


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## Leo (Nov 24, 2009)

fatboyj711 said:


> Haha... I don't get how this is analogous to the K2 comment, considering there's a _wealth of information_ about your binding preferences on this forum and only a my screen name to base your assumption on... but good one none the less. I do love golf though...
> 
> Is Leonardo your real name? I've never met a dude with Leo as his legal name so none must exist.


Actually, I was making an analogy for the Detroit comment that nose made... not your K2 Cinch ones.

Detroit has hills, not mountains. Therefore, it's obvious that Detroit riders are coming off Flows or Cinches. That's what Nose's comment suggested at face value.

So yea, now consider my Fatboy analogy. Your name is fatboy, so you're probably fat. Therefore, since snowboarding is physically demanding, a fat person should try a less strenuous activity like golf.

I think it fits nicely. And I don't hate golf or anything. LoL... I enjoy range sessions. Maybe I'll do actual courses skill allowing.


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## Nose Dradamous (Jul 19, 2010)

Leo said:


> Haha, wouldn't be the first time though. Look, we got off on the wrong foot here. I'm really not trying to trash your company. Yes, I am bitter and jaded by all the hypers.
> 
> Let's not have our differences in gear preferences start spilling onto a personal level.
> 
> ...


You a average rider? Hardly. You seem to really know your stuff.


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## Leo (Nov 24, 2009)

Nose Dradamous said:


> You a average rider? Hardly. You seem to really know your stuff.


Haha. Well, average rider surrounded by loads of dealer catalogs and access to yearly demos. As for really knowing my stuff, that's in the eye of the beholder. 

Aside from tech speak (cant beds, adjustable gas pedals, aluminum chassis, etc...), it's all a matter of personal opinion.

It's info that anyone can get really if they took the time to do so. Well, except the demo part.

Also average in terms of my riding. Not chucking myself off booters or maching down Tahoe double blacks switch the whole way.

Just passionate about my hobby just as I'm passionate about sushi and food in general


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## Nose Dradamous (Jul 19, 2010)

Awesome. 
And it's ok if you're not into Union. Different strokes for different folks. I have nothing but respect for the dudes over at Flow. They make a unique product that works for a certain type of rider. Same with Burton, Flux, K2, Ride and the rest of them. 
Bottom line is that there are plenty of people that do dig what we're doing. Temple Cummins was in here today picking up some new straps, ladders, ratchets and Contact Pro highbacks to retro-fit his Karakoram split board bindings. Temps been riding Union for 5 plus years. Unpaid, unsolicited, just digs the goods. Not claiming here, but the amount of dudes at that level that ride our stuff, just because of how it rides is off the charts. And I'm pretty sure that they are maching down Tahoe double blacks and throwing themselfs off booters. So if it works for them, and they have the choice to ride anything they want, then I'm pretty sure that the Union product has merit. 
It's too bad they are at the mountain getting busy and not on this message board sharing their passion and personal opinions.
Again, different strokes for different folks.


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## Leo (Nov 24, 2009)

Well, that's great for them. Not all of us simpleton consumers have the luxury of shredding for a living. Not all of us still have a winter. 

And let's honestly not bring pro riders into this discussion. Union isn't the only company that has unsolicited support by pro riders.

Isn't your basic rider the bulk of your customer base anyway? Temple Cummins is sick as fuck, but he's not the one keeping Union alive.

I think you're reading way too into my posts. You keep bringing up these stories about the quality when I didn't say anything about that. Could use better toe straps and toe ratchets. I didn't say it prevented me from riding down the hill. In fact, I mached down the double black at Boyne :laugh: with your Forces. 

But yea, different strokes for different folks. Do what you guys keep doing. Glad you guys took feedback from your demos and re-hauled those straps. Let's hope we see less Unions with Ride's ThinGrips on them.


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## Nose Dradamous (Jul 19, 2010)

"1) A good majority of them are coming off some old or entry level bindings so Union looks seems like gold to them
2) A shit ton of them haven't had their fair shake of other quality bindings
3) They bash other bindings and companies without any real experience with them. It's usually "binding A sucks because my friend's ladder snapped" or "binding B sucks because I hear about so much breakage issues"
4) Union fanboys are hardcore to the point that they will jump into discussions about another binding company to push their Union propaganda thus making it look like a Godsend binding company to the unsuspecting noob
I demoed 2012 Union Force and Contact Pro. I hated both. Crappy toe ratchets, absurdly poor fitting toe cap, and no canting. They were light though!"

Ok. 

Anyway, I get your point, you get mine. Nice to meet you over the intrawebs Leo. 

Any questions about CAPiTA, Union or Coal product, I'm on here.


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## Leo (Nov 24, 2009)

I love you too baby.


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## mjd (Mar 13, 2009)

I've been riding the same pair of Forces for two and a half years and never had a problem with the toe straps or buckles. It's not rocket science to figure out how to secure them. I replace the straps when they get worn out and they're good to go.


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## Jakey (Mar 17, 2011)

I've been rocking forces for 2 years no problems. Definitely will be considering unions again when I come to replace them.


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## Leo (Nov 24, 2009)

mjd said:


> I've been riding the same pair of Forces for two and a half years and never had a problem with the toe straps or buckles. It's not rocket science to figure out how to secure them. I replace the straps when they get worn out and they're good to go.


Nobody said it was. Nobody even said anything about it not being secure. I was talking about the fitment.

Toe caps shouldn't be rocket science...

By the way, we're talking about 2012 Unions here. They have a different toe cap design than the ones you guys own.

Also, the toe ratchets stay locked down like a mofo. That's not the issue. Releasing them is super sticky. Could be nitpicking, but their ankle ratchet is 100x better so why is the one on the toe that much worse?


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## Jakey (Mar 17, 2011)

I've never noticed anything with the toe ratchet tbh. 

I'm interested in these cantered footbeds though. I take it none of the 2012 unions have them? or at least I never saw anything on it.


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## fatboyj711 (Feb 1, 2010)

Apparently, Union is working on canted beds. Not sure if they're for the 2012 line though.


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## Leo (Nov 24, 2009)

That is a very good thing IMO. That was the other consensus me my other buddies had. They could use more dampening and with canted footbeds, it will help with that aspect. 

Also nice to have in general as it helps the knees out for wider stances. Does squeeze some more pop out of your board, bit definitely not the decision maker aspect of it.

With improved toe straps and canted footbeds... Definitely will want to try Union again.


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## Nose Dradamous (Jul 19, 2010)

Good suggestions.


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## Leo (Nov 24, 2009)

McLovin your sig.


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## Nose Dradamous (Jul 19, 2010)

It made my day.


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## Leo (Nov 24, 2009)

Gotta update to Rome 390 Bosses though. This Flow fanboy sold his FSEs.


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## mjd (Mar 13, 2009)

I'd like to check out canted beds for the Forces. I'm wearing Kaijus now which have a really flat outer sole and I like a wide stance (no Larry Craig jokes please), so that might be cool. The buckles are perfect the way they are and have been as well as the straps. The 011 replacement straps are awesome.


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## Leo (Nov 24, 2009)

I have the Restricted Hails which have a very flat and low profile sole as well. One thing I noticed when I used the highest Rome cant (3.0) was that the outer bottom area of my feet were a little sore from it. Went down one to the 2.5 and feels awesome now. 

That's not considering foot type and stance width though so could just be me.


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## naughtry (Dec 31, 2010)

How is the weight of the Targas or Bosses compared to Forces? 

I am riding Forces this year and am looking for more dampening, thicker padding on the straps, and lighter weight. Next season I'll probably be trying Contact Pros and a pair of Romes or Union Atlas on different boards.

The ratchets on my Forces release just fine but there are some other quarks that bother me, mostly just that they feel like they are built cheaply.


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## Nefarious (Dec 26, 2010)

naughtry said:


> How is the weight of the Targas or Bosses compared to Forces?
> 
> I am riding Forces this year and am looking for more dampening, thicker padding on the straps, and lighter weight. Next season I'll probably be trying Contact Pros and a pair of Romes or Union Atlas on different boards.
> 
> The ratchets on my Forces release just fine but there are some other quarks that bother me, mostly just that they feel like they are built cheaply.


I've got '11 Forces and 390's. I can honestly say I don't notice a ton of weight difference, but I know the 390's weigh less. I think it might be that the base contact surface for the Forces is slightly larger. :dunno:


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## Nose Dradamous (Jul 19, 2010)

naughtry said:


> How is the weight of the Targas or Bosses compared to Forces?
> 
> I am riding Forces this year and am looking for more dampening, thicker padding on the straps, and lighter weight. Next season I'll probably be trying Contact Pros and a pair of Romes or Union Atlas on different boards.
> 
> The ratchets on my Forces release just fine but there are some other quarks that bother me, mostly just that they feel like they are built cheaply.


You want the contact pro's. New ankle straps are pretty damn comfy.  Not as comfy as say a FLOW all over your boot slide in strap combined with a reclining highback but real comfy.


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