# Overturning on Heelside



## OU812 (Feb 2, 2013)

I'm having a bit of problem on my heelside turns. On toeside I can do a nice slow arc or a tighter turn but on heelside my back leg comes around way too much all the time causing me to brake or over turn. I can't seem to get that nice lazy arc on the turn. 

I adjusted my forward lean on my highbacks and that helped. Definitely made me feel the board and bindings a lot more, more feedback which was nice. I bend my knees and stick out my ass to get my weight over the heel edge, maybe I'm doing it too much? Any help and ideas are appreciated.


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## Oldman (Mar 7, 2012)

Without seeing a video, it sounds like you are sitting in the "backseat" too much. It sounds like you realize you should not be rudder steering and you don't want to, but you are.

When on your heel edge, you have too much of your weight on your back foot. 

Try to get your weight more evenly balanced on your two feet when on your heel edge. Transfer more of your weight to your front foot. 

Remember, any time you go to initiate a turn, it should happen with your lead shoulder and your lead foot. Weight balance is key.


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## Donutz (May 12, 2010)

I have a similar problem. I'm dealing with it by paying attention to what I'm doing toeside and trying to replicate that on the heelside turns.
One problem is psychological. On toeside, you can _see_ the slope, so you're more inclined to go into a braking maneuver in the first place. All other things being equal, you're probably turning more on the toesides.
Ideally, on a steeps turn, you should start the turn with your weight forward. As you go into the turn, you shift your weight back, until by the midpoint of the turn, your weight is more on your back leg. This will also prevent or reduce the chatter that you otherwise get.


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## KIRKRIDER (Mar 18, 2008)

OU812 said:


> I'm having a bit of problem on my heelside turns. On toeside I can do a nice slow arc or a tighter turn but on heelside my back leg comes around way too much all the time causing me to brake or over turn. I can't seem to get that nice lazy arc on the turn.
> 
> I adjusted my forward lean on my highbacks and that helped. Definitely made me feel the board and bindings a lot more, more feedback which was nice. I bend my knees and stick out my ass to get my weight over the heel edge, maybe I'm doing it too much? Any help and ideas are appreciated.


What angles are you riding? Both positive help a lot in heel side carve. If you look at hard boot riders they use 35+ degrees, so you have almost the same flexibility either side.


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## OU812 (Feb 2, 2013)

Thanks for the posts. 

I might be going too much on my back leg once in the turn because I know for sure I initiate with my front leg. I lift toe and open my front knee, but I think I try and rudder too much rather than trust it and ride it out like on toeside. Also, my front leg thigh was sore after riding yesterday, 2nd time riding this season so I'm pretty sure I'm leaning forward from that indication?

My angles are 21/-3. I have an Ns SL and don't ride switch.


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## KIRKRIDER (Mar 18, 2008)

OU812 said:


> Thanks for the posts.
> 
> I might be going too much on my back leg once in the turn because I know for sure I initiate with my front leg. I lift toe and open my front knee, but I think I try and rudder too much rather than trust it and ride it out like on toeside. Also, my front leg thigh was sore after riding yesterday, 2nd time riding this season so I'm pretty sure I'm leaning forward from that indication?
> 
> My angles are 21/-3. I have an Ns SL and don't ride switch.


try +21 / + 9 and tuck your back knee in as you exit the turn, should help stay more forward.


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## OU812 (Feb 2, 2013)

KIRKRIDER said:


> try +21 / + 9 and tuck your back knee in as you exit the turn, should help stay more forward.


Not sure I wanna go to both positive angles, but maybe I'll like it more who knows. I'll see if I can start trusting the turn first, I think its mainly a confidence thing, not an equipment/setup issue.


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## OU812 (Feb 2, 2013)

One more question for you guys, where do your eyes point? How far ahead of you? Because I also noticed I don't look too far ahead, maybe 5m in front of me or so. When I tried to keep my eyes more ahead and thus head/chin more level the turns improved. Does that make sense?


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## stillz (Jan 5, 2010)

Glad keeping your vision up is helping. Also try to look where you're headed, not always locked directly down the fall line. I've seen this cause some oversteer effects. Visualize your line and try to follow it as precisely as you can.

It could also be a timing thing. The front foot steers, the back foot shapes. The amount of time you put between initiating with the front foot and following through with the back foot matters. If you want more skid, keep the board twisted longer by edging later or less with the back foot. If you're passive enough with your back foot, it should overtake the front foot and leave you riding switch. If you want less skid and oversteer, try edging sooner with the back foot. Edging simultaneously with both feet will tilt the board on edge and you will likely tip over. So still initiate with the front foot and twist the board to start the new turn, but vary the timing of your back foot follow through until you get the turn shape you want. 

Oversteer can also happen if you're too far forward. Not a very common problem, but if you've been feverishly internetting for your answers, maybe you have taken the front foot thing a little too far. Ideally, you want to use the entire length of your edge for turning, and the best way to do this is to hover around a 50/50 weight distribution between your feet.

As for sticking your ass out, don't do it. If you're like most people, your ass goes out past your heel edge and your head comes forward and down, past the toe edge. This gives you the illusion of being low over your board, but ruins your neutral posture. Your center of mass (roughly hips/ass) should be positioned directly over your working edge with a neutral spine stacked on top. Measure it with a plumb bob if you like. Also be sure to watch wrathfuldeity's video for a detailed overview of neutral posture.


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## OU812 (Feb 2, 2013)

stillz said:


> Glad keeping your vision up is helping. Also try to look where you're headed, not always locked directly down the fall line. I've seen this cause some oversteer effects. Visualize your line and try to follow it as precisely as you can.
> 
> It could also be a timing thing. The front foot steers, the back foot shapes. The amount of time you put between initiating with the front foot and following through with the back foot matters. If you want more skid, keep the board twisted longer by edging later or less with the back foot. If you're passive enough with your back foot, it should overtake the front foot and leave you riding switch. If you want less skid and oversteer, try edging sooner with the back foot. Edging simultaneously with both feet will tilt the board on edge and you will likely tip over. So still initiate with the front foot and twist the board to start the new turn, but vary the timing of your back foot follow through until you get the turn shape you want.
> 
> ...


Hmm, thinking about what you wrote I know on my toe edge I initiate and then just easily lean into the edge and I'm there and like you said shape it with the back. I might be overdoing it on the heel side weight transfer wise too soon/too much. I know I start off right, I open up the front knee and it feels great and then it just kinda falls apart. I'll focus on 50/50 as well.

Thanks for the info and idea, I'll work on it!


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## stillz (Jan 5, 2010)

Sorry, there was a lot in my post, but I hope it all pretty clear and straightforward. Experiment more. You'll learn faster.

When you open your front knee, does your upper body also turn to face down the hill (breaking alignment)? If if does, that could also cause some unwanted extra rotation. If you're doing this, just concentrate on maintaining your alignment through the turn. See if you can round out your turn shape more and take your downhill momentum across the hill with you.

Be patient, and keep experimenting. It sounds like you're already past the toughest part of snowboarding, and are dialing in the details now. Just keep practicing and it all gets easier.


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## Wiredsport (Sep 16, 2009)

OU812 said:


> I'm having a bit of problem on my heelside turns. On toeside I can do a nice slow arc or a tighter turn but on heelside my back leg comes around way too much all the time causing me to brake or over turn. I can't seem to get that nice lazy arc on the turn.
> 
> I adjusted my forward lean on my highbacks and that helped. Definitely made me feel the board and bindings a lot more, more feedback which was nice. I bend my knees and stick out my ass to get my weight over the heel edge, maybe I'm doing it too much? Any help and ideas are appreciated.


Have you checked your centering? A lot of times when riders are struggling with heel-side it happens that they are not centered on the board. This is very often caused by mistakenly trying to center either the boots or the bindings rather than the foot.

Happy to help with that if you would like.


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## OU812 (Feb 2, 2013)

stillz said:


> Sorry, there was a lot in my post, but I hope it all pretty clear and straightforward. Experiment more. You'll learn faster.
> 
> When you open your front knee, does your upper body also turn to face down the hill (breaking alignment)? If if does, that could also cause some unwanted extra rotation. If you're doing this, just concentrate on maintaining your alignment through the turn. See if you can round out your turn shape more and take your downhill momentum across the hill with you.
> 
> Be patient, and keep experimenting. It sounds like you're already past the toughest part of snowboarding, and are dialing in the details now. Just keep practicing and it all gets easier.


Possibly, I can't remember now but I might be. I'll experiment next time I go which is gonna be Friday again and see for sure. I also changed the angle of my front binding from +21 to +15 to see what that'll do. That could also be a slight cause that I'm opening up too much as I feel like I might be too open on that side when I ride. I took a break last season and before that I had +18 on the front.


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## OU812 (Feb 2, 2013)

Wiredsport said:


> Have you checked your centering? A lot of times when riders are struggling with heel-side it happens that they are not centered on the board. This is very often caused by mistakenly trying to center either the boots or the bindings rather than the foot.
> 
> Happy to help with that if you would like.


Yea, sure do you have a link I can check out?


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## Wiredsport (Sep 16, 2009)

OU812 said:


> Yea, sure do you have a link I can check out?


A few photos posted here will help a lot. First, pull out the insert (footbed) from the liner of your boot. Stand on it barefoot with your heel back in the indent and snap off some photos.

That will be a great start.


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## OU812 (Feb 2, 2013)

Wiredsport said:


> A few photos posted here will help a lot. First, pull out the insert (footbed) from the liner of your boot. Stand on it barefoot with your heel back in the indent and snap off some photos.
> 
> That will be a great start.


My liners don't have inserts I can pull out  sorry. I have Deeluxe ID boots.


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## Wiredsport (Sep 16, 2009)

OU812 said:


> My liners don't have inserts I can pull out  sorry. I have Deeluxe ID boots.


No problem. Alternately, you can measure your bare foot (no sock) toe to heel and also provide your snowboard boot size.


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## OU812 (Feb 2, 2013)

Wiredsport said:


> No problem. Alternately, you can measure your bare foot (no sock) toe to heel and also provide your snowboard boot size.


28.5 barefoot and my boot size is also 28.5.


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## Wiredsport (Sep 16, 2009)

OU812 said:


> 28.5 barefoot and my boot size is also 28.5.


Cool, That is a great start. With that out of the way please post up some photos of your setup showing centering with your tightly laced boots tightly strapped into your bindings.


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## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

What Stillz said = excellent.

I find i sometimes have the same struggle. Toeside... nice lazy perfectly arched turns. Heelside feels like i sometime have to fight the sidecut.

This normally happens when I lean back instead of dropping the butt to the board. For heelside you have to drop your butt almost as if you were going for a grab.... also lift/pull your toes. This adds a lot more power to your edge. I can even change the turn shape by just pulling the toes more or less..... 

But yeah... heelside is tough. 

Tried a fwd stance once and it was a revelation hahaha. If only jumps werent so sketchy, i would have kept the fwd. Now I know my heelsides will never be all they can be as long as I ride duck (even if i ride a fwd-ish duck)


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## speedjason (May 2, 2013)

Too much weight on the rear foot.


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## t21 (Dec 29, 2010)

My stance is at +12 / -9 and the way i figured out how to have a much better arc on my heelside turn was to tuck in my back knee as i turn and keep my weight centered as i continue my turn then open up again. I also squat down about 3/4 to about halfway down where it all depends how my legs feels. I just experimented on my heelside turns and thats what work for me, keep practicing whichever way you feel comfortable doing so goodluck and i hope you get it:smile:


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## OU812 (Feb 2, 2013)

F1EA said:


> What Stillz said = excellent.
> 
> I find i sometimes have the same struggle. Toeside... nice lazy perfectly arched turns. Heelside feels like i sometime have to fight the sidecut.
> 
> ...


Yea, everyone used to tell me how toe side turns are tougher but for me its the other way around to get a nice clean turn. Gonna keep working at it.




Wiredsport said:


> Cool, That is a great start. With that out of the way please post up some photos of your setup showing centering with your tightly laced boots tightly strapped into your bindings.


Sure, here are some photos I just took. I measured the overhand and its 1in on all 4 sides.


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## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

hahaha yea me too. Same case. I remember my very first day, first lesson. Instructor made me start with toeside because it's generally where ppl struggle. I was good right off the bat. Was getting all excited until we started trying heelside. uh oh. hahahah that took more effort.


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## OU812 (Feb 2, 2013)

F1EA said:


> hahaha yea me too. Same case. I remember my very first day, first lesson. Instructor made me start with toeside because it's generally where ppl struggle. I was good right off the bat. Was getting all excited until we started trying heelside. uh oh. hahahah that took more effort.


Yea, I mean I can turn fine off both sides but the heel side will over turn at times and its pissing me off haha


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## Wiredsport (Sep 16, 2009)

Looking good on the centering front. Carry on with technique .


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## OU812 (Feb 2, 2013)

Wiredsport said:


> Looking good on the centering front. Carry on with technique .


Thanks. I thought so as well but always good to get a second opinion from someone more experienced. Appreciate the time spent.


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## Jorgeluisborges (Jan 20, 2016)

Yeah - I had the same problem on heelside. Only did a week but by the end I was over rotating the heelside so much was pretty much ending up in switch!

I didn't really know what I was doing - I guess it's weight on the back foot as I'mfinding it super hard to lose my surfing muscle memory.

Funny thing is I think I got worse as the week progressed! I'm going to take a lesson before going out. I think I was teaching myself bad habits - like twisting at the hips.


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## stillz (Jan 5, 2010)

The thing I've learned about board sports (surfed first, snowboarded second, and skated third) is that you pay your beginner dues with all of them, even if you're high level at one. The board feel seems totally foreign at first, until you learn the basic mechanics of that sport. There are things that transfer from one to the next, but not everything, and only after you get past the flailing newbie stage.

Think about it, a metal edge on solid snow is pretty different from a rounded hull with fins in water or wheels attached to trucks rolling over concrete or asphalt. You have to appreciate these differences before your muscle memory can transfer effectively.

A snowboard will smear, skid, and sideslip all day if you just let it, where you have to force a skateboard or surfboard into such a maneuver. If you're spinning through to fakie, you're not using the length of your edge. Think about using as much of your edge as you can.

How to spin to fakie on purpose: 50/50 weight distribution, engage the edge with the downhill foot only. Let the uphill foot swing through.


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## OU812 (Feb 2, 2013)

So I went out and worked on it a lot today. Few observations that I noticed was, when I do my heel side turns if I have my eyes focused on where I wanna go further out in the distance that helps. However the thing that helped the most was keeping my body in line with the board and opening up the front knee and leading with that knee (I'll explain that). 
I also noticed I allowed my right arm (I ride regular) to move forward too much, kinda like that "holding your girlfriend" stance. It's not as extreme but thats what it reminded me of, so I focused on keeping that arm behind me which allowed my body to be more inline with the board when turning, it was a great reference point. 

I focused on the back arm on toe side turns as well and those got even better. Basically I felt more inline with the board and had much better edge control and balance overall on both edges. I also changed the front binding angle from +21 to +15 and that didn't allow me to open up as easily and again felt more solid, riding sideways as I should be. 

In regards to the front knee, my mistake was that I'd open up the front knee fine but then allowed my back leg to take over the steering too much which had me over turning. Instead I focused on leading with the front foot and knee, rear leg supporting or shaping as stillz called it and that helped a ton. I also noticed when I did this everything seemed so much more effortless and a little move with the knee had me on my edge turning and I stayed in that turn.

Thanks a lot guys for the help. Still got lots to work on but definitely on the right path now. Really appreciate it.


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## freshy (Nov 18, 2009)

Maybe I'm too late, maybe not, maybe this won't even help, but maybe it will. I had a similar experience when I first started where I would kind of get stuck on my heel edge and find it difficult to get back on my toe. Anyway what helped me was to hold both my arms out facing down hill, that seems to get me in the right position to be able to get back on my toe. 
Hope that helps.


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## OU812 (Feb 2, 2013)

One thing I noticed riding today was on heel side if I didn't allow my back knee to move forward in the turn and made a conscious effort to either keep it in the same position or push it out a bit towards the tail (or so it feels that way) I had lots more control over the turn. 
Does that make any sense? 

I'm going again Friday and will try changing my back binding from -3 to -6 and see if that feels better as well.


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## Seppuccu (Dec 4, 2012)

Great thread!

Pushing your knees out will put extra pressure on your contact points. That will help you staying in the carve and not overturn.


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## OU812 (Feb 2, 2013)

Anticrobotic said:


> Great thread!
> 
> Pushing your knees out will put extra pressure on your contact points. That will help you staying in the carve and not overturn.


Thanks, I'll work on that.


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## OU812 (Feb 2, 2013)

Good improvement last time I went. Pushing both my knees out on heelside felt great. Changing my back binding from -3 to -6 also helped a lot, felt more natural. I'm going to try a wider stance this Friday and see how that feels. I was at 23.5in (second last bushings) and gonna try a 25in stance, all the way out. I've had it there before previous season and felt really stable, with no pain or difficulty riding. I'm 6'4 and feel like I'm a bit too upright with the 23.5in stance.


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## WasabiCanuck (Apr 29, 2015)

I have heel edge trouble too when hitting a black diamond. It is really humbling because I am super comfortable on blues and can carve usually pretty well. But on a black I get alot of chatter on my heels and I wash out sometimes. Maybe the steepness/speed is freaking me out and I try to break too hard?


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## Fielding (Feb 15, 2015)

I carve so much better backside when I'm riding at +9 back and +27 front on my full camber deck. I don't ride switch and I'm not out to ride rails and stuff so I feel like ducky stance does nothing for me. Cranking up the FLAD a bit helps too. Let's take it back to the nineties.


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## stillz (Jan 5, 2010)

Heelside chatter is a tough thing to fully eliminate, especially on steeps. Here's how I've been thinking about it. On steeps and during hard carves, we're creating large turning forces and pushing the limits of our skills and equipment. We need to be precise about how we distribute the forces we create throughout the turn. If we overload our edge at any point, we'll get chatter or worse.

First I make sure I'm actually finishing my toeside turns. If I don't do that, then I'll have extra energy that I'll need to control on the heelside. More energy requires more force, increasing the chance of overloading my edge. Therefore, I need to be absolutely certain that I'm finishing each turn. Once you're sure you're finishing your toeside turns, start to really pay attention to your toe to heel transition. 

During the transition, I look for any abrupt, jerky movements, and then smooth them out or just eliminate them if they're not necessary. Any counter-rotational move from the upper body can cause the board to pivot. If you're carving and you pivot the board, you're not carving anymore. Does this mean you have to stay perfectly aligned with your snowboard at all times? Not at all...but doing that may help.

Does any part of the board leave the snow during the edge change? Many times the tail of the board comes off the snow in steep terrain and the rider pivots around on the nose. Keeping the board in full contact with the snow allows you to distribute the turning forces evenly throughout the turn more easily. When turning forces are high, any unevenness in how you distribute that force through the turn can cause chatter. It's possible to pivot around on the nose without chattering, but I think it's really difficult during high-energy turns.

If I'm still getting chatter then maybe I'm leaning into the hill, rather than directing pressure to my edge. Pressuring the edge is how you really sink in and dig trenches, where leaning too far may cause you to wash out.

This kind of internal dialogue has helped me greatly reduce the chatter I get on very steep terrain and during high-G carves, normal and switch. Hopefully it helps you, too.


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## WasabiCanuck (Apr 29, 2015)

stillz said:


> Heelside chatter is a tough thing to fully eliminate, especially on steeps. Here's how I've been thinking about it. On steeps and during hard carves, we're creating large turning forces and pushing the limits of our skills and equipment. We need to be precise about how we distribute the forces we create throughout the turn. If we overload our edge at any point, we'll get chatter or worse.
> 
> First I make sure I'm actually finishing my toeside turns. If I don't do that, then I'll have extra energy that I'll need to control on the heelside. More energy requires more force, increasing the chance of overloading my edge. Therefore, I need to be absolutely certain that I'm finishing each turn. Once you're sure you're finishing your toeside turns, start to really pay attention to your toe to heel transition.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the detailed reply. I will continue to work on it. I'm on Greens alot with my kids right now so I haven't had much of a chance to practice on blacks.


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