# Long drawn out carves



## jdang307 (Feb 6, 2011)

Any tips on learning wide carves? I've got short radius turns down, my carving isn't perfect yet but passable (still working on smooth transitions). But for the life of me I cannot control the board to do long drawn out carves. As soon as I go on edge the board just wants to turn and I end up turning hard.

Just looking for tips, things to practice. Stance is 15/15 ducked. If I try to draw the turn out I end up slip sliding.


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## jml22 (Apr 10, 2012)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9n_cwQLpo_c


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## wrathfuldeity (Oct 5, 2007)

What's the radius cut of your board? An 8 m is going to want to make a more sharp turn than a 12 or 14 m sidecut.


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## Jed (May 11, 2011)

It sounds like you're trying to apply the same technique from short radius carves to your long, wide carves, which is messing up your longer carves.

The trick with doing those long wide carves is it's about applying very gradual slight pressure. If you push hard on your edge, you're going to turn sharply, since carving is riding your edge and your edges always wants to turn when pressured.

More pressure = sharper carve, less pressure = mellow carve

Pretend that your feet are gas pedals in a car and you want to very gradually step down on that gas pedal for toeside carves and very gradually lift off the gas pedal for heelside carves.

Just like you don't try to stomp the foot down on the gas pedal to accelerate at a traffic light, you want to think the same way with long, drawn out carving and just gradually apply a tiny bit of pressure to your edge.


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## jlm1976 (Feb 26, 2009)

> More pressure = sharper carve, less pressure = mellow carve



What about edge angle? Doesn't that factor into a carved turn?


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## poutanen (Dec 22, 2011)

How bent are your knees? Basically bend your knees, set the board on edge and ride it through. As previously mentioned, a short radius board isn't going to rail long radius carves. If you get a short radius (i.e. 8m or less or so) board on a 45 deg angle to the snow, it's going to really want to turn...


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## Jed (May 11, 2011)

jlm1976 said:


> What about edge angle? Doesn't that factor into a carved turn?


Yep it does. Typically more/less edge angle goes hand in hand with putting more/less pressure on that edge when learning carves, so the typical rider will naturally add more edge angle as they lean more on their edge and naturally put less edge angle as they release pressure.

As riders get more advanced they start being able to play around more with small edge angle adjustments while keeping the same pressure, but that's a little more advanced as far as riding mechanics go.


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## KIRKRIDER (Mar 18, 2008)

jdang307 said:


> Any tips on learning wide carves? I've got short radius turns down, my carving isn't perfect yet but passable (still working on smooth transitions). But for the life of me I cannot control the board to do long drawn out carves. As soon as I go on edge the board just wants to turn and I end up turning hard.
> 
> Just looking for tips, things to practice. Stance is 15/15 ducked. If I try to draw the turn out I end up slip sliding.


You might want to try both positive angles, say +21, +18 a position that will allow you to bend those knees better and more in line with the board, ( as in the picture) and extend your turns.


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## anvilstrkr (Oct 26, 2013)

Something to keep in mind besides edge angle is how your body joints are rotating in our stance. Your hips want to stay aligned to the edge of the board to reduce rotation. This will make for a longer traverse across the fall line of the slope.


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## MGD81 (Mar 13, 2012)

anvilstrkr said:


> Something to keep in mind besides edge angle is how your body joints are rotating in our stance. Your hips want to stay aligned to the edge of the board to reduce rotation. This will make for a longer traverse across the fall line of the slope.


Bullshit.

This totally depends on the pitch of terrain you are carving on.

Anything steeper than a low blue and your heel-side carves will be way bigger than toe-side, and you will have a really hard time managing speed.


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## anvilstrkr (Oct 26, 2013)

Managing speed is done by either skidding in the turn or turn shape.
As, for the question in hand is how to make a long radius turn. I was just explaining that when in the control phase of the turn. Which you should be going across the fall line, which you shouldn't be picking up speed, that you need to pay attention to your reference alignments.


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## MGD81 (Mar 13, 2012)

anvilstrkr said:


> Managing speed is done by either skidding in the turn or turn shape.
> As, for the question in hand is how to make a long radius turn. I was just explaining that when in the control phase of the turn. Which you should be going across the fall line, which you shouldn't be picking up speed, that you need to pay attention to your reference alignments.


Paying attention how? be specific.

The control phase is the middle of the turn - Initiation, control, finish. Hardly the point in which you "go across the fall line" Thats the finish.


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## anvilstrkr (Oct 26, 2013)

Reference alignments are how we stand on our board to control the board performance. Going across the fall line in a long radius turn for a beginner would be the control phase and finish to the initiation of the next turn.


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## MGD81 (Mar 13, 2012)

anvilstrkr said:


> Reference alignments are how we stand on our board to control the board performance. Going across the fall line in a long radius turn for a beginner would be the control phase and finish to the initiation of the next turn.


The phases of a turn don't change because of the ability of the rider. I'm out, you have no idea what your talking about, so there is no point in arguing. 

Stop using technical terms and giving bad information.


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## anvilstrkr (Oct 26, 2013)

If I had a client come into our Snowsports school and ask for a lesson on how to make a long radius turn I would go through a lot of different drills to accomplish the goal. The one piece of advice I gave to this forum about paying attention to your hips was because it seemed that by his description of what was going on he was putting to much rotation into his technique. I don't consider that bad advice. Without seeing on a video or in person it's hard to pinpoint exactly what is going on.


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## jdang307 (Feb 6, 2011)

Thanks everyone I'm willing to try anything to progress. There might be some merit in the alignment thing. I might be rotating my body too much as that's a habit from navigating steeps (out of fear from gaining too much speed). I never paid attention to it but will try now.


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## baconzoo (Nov 12, 2010)

*remain balanced*










I teach remaining balanced within a duality of forces. Centripetal force is the trip that your sidecut takes you on. Centrifugal force is the extension out of the apex of the turn, (that feels like a release) and into the next trip.

The circles inside of the S-shape of the turns is where your center of mass should be projected.

I use upper-body rotation to draw my turn shape slowly for these long radius turns. (inclined over the center of mass) The only other mental image I apply to my body, is to drive my knees and hip into each turn. Upper body is to remain balanced into the direction of travel.

When done correctly, it is effortless action, even though you are ripping downhill.

My stance is 30* 15* positive on a centered freestyle board. I ride edge locked all the time, even switch.


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## baconzoo (Nov 12, 2010)

I only break at the knees.









Max your bindings "Forward Lean" so that you get a higher edge angle, quicker.









on heelside, it's all about hip-projection into the center of the turn.


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## baldylox (Dec 27, 2007)

I generally try to crank down and get the edge up as high as possible in the first 1/4 second of the turn.

Also, like Baconzoo said, I think setting the highback lean is pretty key but unfortunately some of the stiffer boots that are meant to be targeting for carving (Driver X), will crease and cut off your circulation. If that is the case with your boot, you could use cant plates.

@Baconzoo - Dude you wear a helmet on snow but not a asphalt?!


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## baconzoo (Nov 12, 2010)

cifex said:


> @Baconzoo - Dude you wear a helmet on snow but not a asphalt?!


Those Carveboards go pretty slow, I can wear flip flops and just turn back uphill and step off. On the snowboard, I'm trying to break the 70mph mark this season. (GPS)


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## MGD81 (Mar 13, 2012)

baconzoo said:


> I only break at the knees.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What this guy demonstrated, I love that old school style. Unfortunately the AASI system generally wont teach you how to do this.

I certainly wouldn't teach a beginner to carve this way, but when you get on the steeps this is the only way to do it (if you want both turns the same shape)

I love hand drags too, unfortunately I snapped my wrist and hyper-extended my elbow doing it on my heelside 2 years ago, so now I tend to just hover my hand rather than drag!


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## KIRKRIDER (Mar 18, 2008)

MGD81 said:


> I love hand drags too, unfortunately I snapped my wrist and hyper-extended my elbow doing it on my heelside 2 years ago, so now I tend to just hover my hand rather than drag!


might help? ( Level - Superpipe Pro )


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## MGD81 (Mar 13, 2012)

KIRKRIDER said:


> might help? ( Level - Superpipe Pro )


Ya, I got the burton ones this year. Wont save my elbow though - I think that hurt more!


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## jlm1976 (Feb 26, 2009)

MGD81 said:


> What this guy demonstrated, I love that old school style. Unfortunately the AASI system generally wont teach you how to do this.
> 
> I certainly wouldn't teach a beginner to carve this way, but when you get on the steeps this is the only way to do it (if you want both turns the same shape!


How is this old school technique? A flexed lower body and good alignment is pretty current. Doesn't AASI promote those as hallmarks of solid riding? 

To the OP, I would keep your shoulders and hips in line with the board and dial all the movements to turn down in intensity and speed. Focus on being gentle as you enter the new turn...


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## Jed (May 11, 2011)

Lol, I like how this thread somehow got changed from a simple question about beginner carving into advanced carving only riding stances, hard boot carving and advanced carving technique.

We may we getting a little beyond what the OP is asking here


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## nillo (Dec 18, 2013)

Since the OP was looking for ways to work on large radius carves, how about working on some nice gentle cross-over carves. Do this drill on a gentle slope. Start heading downhill in a balanced and relaxed neutral position. Pick a direction (heelside or toeside). Gently lean your body a little bit in that direction and feel the edge engage. You will start to gently carve in that direction. Then do it the other way. Try to keep your hands loosely at your sides and keep your upper body quiet. You want all of the movement to be initiated by the small weight shifts of youe body moving back and forth over the board.


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## jdang307 (Feb 6, 2011)

This just popped up on my facebook page, it's from NS and I'm not pimping NS just saying, this is the sort of stuff I'm trying.

Those guys at the beginning are straightlining but on high edge. Whenever I try to straightline it I have to be flat. If I put my board on edge I turn, and usually pretty hard. Or I skid. This is even worse on my heelside. I can draw out the turns okay on my toe side, not great, but ok. If I try to straighten it out, my back foot fights it and I sort of wobble.

But on heels once I engage I'm turning. It's weird to describe, I guess I'll work on it this weekend and then if needed, do a video (not sure any of my buddies wants to take any time on video).

But I'll be on my WWW so we'll see if it holds up. Either way, going up to Whistler in a couple weeks and will practice then as well.


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## nillo (Dec 18, 2013)

The very first guys in the video? If so, I think you might want to go back and look at the video carefully.


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## KIRKRIDER (Mar 18, 2008)

I got the WWW for my son, but it's a flat and flexy board, not the best choice for carving? Get a used camber board with a long sidecut, and dig those trenches. Man I want to ride.


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## baconzoo (Nov 12, 2010)

jdang307: (my 10 cents) I'm either edged locked with a high edge angle carving, or throwing it sideways for a big powder spray.

For straight-lining, put your weight over the nose. I literally drop my chest down into my front knee.


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## nillo (Dec 18, 2013)

Ok the K2 WWW. There's your problem right there. It's a flexible rocker board with a 3deg base bevel. I'm guessing it is pretty detuned as well. That is pretty much the opposite of a carving board. You are probably twisting the board instead of just letting the sidecut do its thing.

Get out there on a stiff camber board with a base bevel of no more than 1deg.


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## jdang307 (Feb 6, 2011)

nillo said:


> Ok the K2 WWW. There's your problem right there. It's a flexible rocker board with a 3deg base bevel. I'm guessing it is pretty detuned as well. That is pretty much the opposite of a carving board. You are probably twisting the board instead of just letting the sidecut do its thing.
> 
> Get out there on a stiff camber board with a base bevel of no more than 1deg.


No I haven't ridden the WWW yet. I'm getting it in the mail today :laugh: I'm just saying it might be hard to practice on it.

I was riding a NS Cobra. Will be riding a Proto HD or K2 Happy Hour (with the new lifted camber, I can't decide whether to sell the Proto and get the HH)


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## jdang307 (Feb 6, 2011)

nillo said:


> The very first guys in the video? If so, I think you might want to go back and look at the video carefully.


I meant those three guys. Not the very first run. Those very first cuts were straightline. But I can't even do that on edge with good control and form. If I'm going as straight as them, I'm almost flat. Once I get on edge I'm turning.


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## nillo (Dec 18, 2013)

lol ok, I see. Sorry about that.

idk, we might have different ideas of what a high board angle is. But anyway, as soon as you engage the edge, you are going to turn. The more you engage the edge, the more you turn.

I would still say go out and try working on cross overs on an easy run just to work on weight shift and balance. Turn using only balanced weight shift over the board. Don't use your feet to twist the board. Definitely try to get some video.


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## jml22 (Apr 10, 2012)

It's either knees down or butt down, that's what she said?


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## redlude97 (Jan 9, 2008)

jdang307 said:


> I meant those three guys. Not the very first run. Those very first cuts were straightline. But I can't even do that on edge with good control and form. If I'm going as straight as them, I'm almost flat. Once I get on edge I'm turning.


More counter rotation


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## KillinIT (Dec 16, 2013)

baconzoo said:


> I only break at the knees.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


While these turns work, and everything said was spot on, none of the form in these pictures is going to accomplish what I consider to be a long carving turn.

In all of these pictures, as pointed out by the op in the post, the knees are really bent, and that's good/perfect for mid to sharp turn in/out type turns, boarder cross stuff, linking gates in slalom figure 8 type carving. IMHO, that form isn't going to give a fully laid out carve. IMHO, a long laid out carve will put the rider into a standing position with very little knee flex

May I point out from these pics that, if the rider was also pulling his knees together causing the edge at the waist of the board to dig harder and effectively preload the board, and then, at the same time as the board "releases" the rider released his bent knees this would rocket the rider out of corners and increase speed with each corner as well, literally generate speed in a corner instead of loosing it.

Long laid out carves require SPEED and lots of it, momentum and full body strength. From a tucked, regular footed riding position making a front side carve: (again like allot of examples, I relate this to a controlled fall...)
I would start my turn while remaining tucked down, then leaning hard forward to initiate turn in and direction, to the point of a fall, and as you fall forward extend your legs out almost as if you're standing up from that tucked position while keeping your right arm up, hand out palm down, to be ready to catch yourself in case your edge washes out and also graze the ground(like a street bike racer uses their knee in a corner) for stability, cuz you are basically standing up into a fully laid out turn, from tucked to fully transitioned into a laid out and standing position in a high speed long and beautiful carve that spreads and throws snow 10' into the air for its duration, like in a movie...

Everything herein is relative and based on perspective so....:dizzy:


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## nillo (Dec 18, 2013)

What KillinIT is describing is a cross through carve. Basically it is a combination of a cross over carve and a cross under carve. I think you would want to get those two worked out first before going for the cross through.


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## poutanen (Dec 22, 2011)

baconzoo said:


> I literally drop my chest down into my front knee.


That must hurt!!! :dizzy:


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## jdang307 (Feb 6, 2011)

poutanen said:


> That must hurt!!! :dizzy:


Miley Cyrus says it's not too bad. :yahoo:


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## jlm1976 (Feb 26, 2009)

KillinIT said:


> While these turns work, and everything said was spot on, none of the form in these pictures is going to accomplish what I consider to be a long carving turn.
> 
> In all of these pictures, as pointed out by the op in the post, the knees are really bent, and that's good/perfect for mid to sharp turn in/out type turns, boarder cross stuff, linking gates in slalom figure 8 type carving. IMHO, that form isn't going to give a fully laid out carve. IMHO, a long laid out carve will put the rider into a standing position with very little knee flex
> 
> ...


Couple of things : 
Fully laid out turns will be the tightest carves your board can make because you are maxing out your edge angle. If you are doing them well, your board will be nearly verticle and significantly higher than the board in baconzoo's photos. 

Baconzoo is demonstrating solid technique to drawn out large GS turns. The only change I would make is that if you are riding duck, it should be your front hand touching the snow, otherwise you'll lose nosepressure. 

I would also avoid driving your knees together as doing so builds pressure between your bindings but lightens pressure at the tip and tail leading to less stability. Better to drift your weight back through the turn to build tail pressure and use that to spring into the next turn.


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## Slush Puppie (Aug 15, 2011)

You might find Alpine Carving Technique - The Carver's Almanac useful - if only to realise that there are a number of different styles/approaches and that some of the advice you might hear applies to specific approaches and not others. I found the cracking a walnut between your ribs and hip instantly transformed my heal side carves.

Also, I would add that I've found technique to be a much bigger factor than board type so far. No doubt carving specific boards are better than park boards but they won't do the carve for you. I personally saw a guy doing perfect lay flat, board at 90 deg turns on regular freestyle board last week and it looked effortless. I'm certainly not there yet but it's inspired me to get as close as i can


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