# Ducking Ropes...



## ShredLife (Feb 6, 2010)

shit outside the ropes is not avy controlled (at least out here it isn't) and if you're riding uncontrolled slopes without proper avy gear and training eventually someone is going to die, so that's one part.

un-knowledgeable people will follow your tracks out of bounds and then drop further down the fall line instead of following your tracks back and get lost requiring S&R to go out for them

if you use the resorts lifts to access backcountry you could get hurt or killed and the resort could see a lawsuit.

resorts that do offer an "open gate" backcountry policy do so at a "gate" in the line and will have a sign up warning of the dangers and absolving themselves of some liability - perhaps requiring proper avy gear.

bottom line: if you want out of bounds freshies its up to you to learn the right way to do it. ducking ropes will get your pass pulled or you dead.


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## StreetDoc (Dec 24, 2011)

ShredLife said:


> shit outside the ropes is not avy controlled (at least out here it isn't) and if you're riding uncontrolled slopes without proper avy gear and training eventually someone is going to die, so that's one part.
> 
> knowledgeable people will follow your tracks out of bounds and then drop further down the fall line instead of following your tracks back and get lost requiring S&R to go out for them
> 
> ...



So even if you skin up the mountain (if they allow it) you're still obligated to follow the rules of the resort? Obviously if you're going to access the backcountry you're going to be properly trained with proper gear. I know you can have inbounds slides (I was at vail last year when that happened on a closed run). The danger here was the little amount of snow (still waist deep in a few spots :thumbsup: ) and the dead fall which to me is a non-issue.


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## Donutz (May 12, 2010)

StreetDoc said:


> ...there was an area (not marked off) where you could ride through the trees and end up on a run that was not opened, you had to duck ropes to get back to the open run then. If it was your first run you could feasibly not know it was closed until you were there already.


I think this is the most important point. You essentially never went out of bounds. If the resort wants to declare an area out of bounds, they have to actually rope it off. A lawyer could have a field day with this. Me, I would have just said to the goons "then you should rope it off up the hill".


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## ShredLife (Feb 6, 2010)

StreetDoc said:


> So even if you skin up the mountain (if they allow it) you're still obligated to follow the rules of the resort? Obviously if you're going to access the backcountry you're going to be properly trained with proper gear. I know you can have inbounds slides (I was at vail last year when that happened on a closed run). The danger here was the little amount of snow (still waist deep in a few spots :thumbsup: ) and the dead fall which to me is a non-issue.


chances are if you skinned up you probably didn't duck a rope, you probably did it outside of the resort boundary. i know where i ride for one there is no uphill traffic allowed within the resort.


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## StreetDoc (Dec 24, 2011)

ShredLife said:


> chances are if you skinned up you probably didn't duck a rope, you probably did it outside of the resort boundary. i know where i ride for one there is no uphill traffic allowed within the resort.


negative, you can skin up the run here as far as I know if it's in the morning before the lift opens.


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## StreetDoc (Dec 24, 2011)

Donutz said:


> I think this is the most important point. You essentially never went out of bounds. If the resort wants to declare an area out of bounds, they have to actually rope it off. A lawyer could have a field day with this. Me, I would have just said to the goons "then you should rope it off up the hill".


Exactly, I didn't want to push it too hard because after he realized we weren't kids he "let us off with a warning". Only taking down my pass # and name. The whole incident really soured me to the "safety patrol" at copper though... I was actually emailing the lead ski patrol guy back and forth to volunteer next year, next sure I want to play mountain cop though.


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## Argo (Feb 25, 2010)

It depends on the resort and what the days rules are during business hours. Outside business hours you can skin, shoe up anything and ride down anything. When the resorts open for the day you have to abide by the rules of the leased property during business hours. Sometimes they dont even allow foot/uphill traffic during the day when it's busy. Your still ski patrol and the mountains responsibility when you die or kill someone.


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## Argo (Feb 25, 2010)

Also, donuts is right. They never closed the upper part of the run according to your story so they should be reprimanded and would be liable if you were injured in that area


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## Lamps (Sep 3, 2011)

Donutz said:


> I think this is the most important point. You essentially never went out of bounds. If the resort wants to declare an area out of bounds, they have to actually rope it off. A lawyer could have a field day with this. Me, I would have just said to the goons "then you should rope it off up the hill".


I dunno, about this, it would depend on the geography a bit. Consider the case where the a single run branches into two that run alongside each other, with trees between and they rope off one the the entrance to one of the branches at the point of the split. If you go a little ways down the open run that you're allowed to be on, and then cut through the trees you're pretty obviously getting onto a run they don't want you on. 

If it was my first time going through the trees and I found myself on in this situation I'd expect ski patrol to cut me some slack. If me and my buddies were essentially doing laps where we were cutting through the trees to ride a roped off run I'd have trouble justifying this and would expect ski patrol to call us on it.


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## wrathfuldeity (Oct 5, 2007)

Idk, around the here there are ropes and then there are ROPES...some places ducking the rope will get you dead...the locals know but tourist don't. There are also gates and warnings....alot of it depends...avy gear, locals, patrol vs sar. Last saturday when skinning out the unattended gate there was a big warning sign. However there were a fair amt of shoers, bpackers and some skiers with out any avy gear and certainly no passes/lift tickets. I'd imagine those folks are doing so at their own risk, without any expectation of ski patrol rescue or assistance and hopefully they understand that its only their judgement and perhaps the good will of other folks who are present and enjoying the bc. 

I think that if patrol sees you ducking and coming back in and you have avy gear and appear to know what ur doing its not an issue....however, if not, then they probably will do the riot act or at least abit of stern education. Though again there are areas/runs that are closed off (high avy danger) and you could go through the trees and end up being in a closed area...patrol would not be happy and they would get you coming out and clip your ticket...but these are roped areas with additional closed signs on the sticks and hard to miss. My observation is that locals and patrol can easily see if a person knows what they are doing and where they are going...and if a person looks to be in over their head or going in the wrong direction they will yell, warn and call patrol. Locals know if there is an area not being ridden then there is a good reason. Besides the hill having a rep of being a reasonably hazardous....there are fools that are unawares and have poor judgement.


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## gjsnowboarder (Sep 1, 2009)

StreetDoc said:


> I understand deadfall and that you could possibly stick a board but IMO there are a lot more dangerous situations you can encounter at a crowded resort. If you know what you're doing I would argue it's impossible to stick a board under a log. When we were "caught" we were literally 3' the other side of the rope.
> Now my question is as I understand it most of the summit county (all?) resorts are US fores service land. If you skinned up the mountain, would the same rules apply to you? What if you accessed roped off backcountry terrain from the top of the mountain but didn't use a lift to get there?


"I would argue that is impossible"....um, no it isn't. No matter how good of a rider one is in the trees. While I would agree that it is less likely for a snowboarder. To ignore the danger of snapping of your leg is not being very aware of inherent risks of riding in the trees. It is like saying that a slope won't slide after digging a snow pit and coming to the conclusion that just because your pack test didn't fail that the slope won't fracture when you are riding on it. This type of rationalization is very dangerous.
As far as roped of terrain I think that even if you skin up and access backcountry through resort boundaries the patrol can take action to stop you. I believe they can do this just like when there is a wildfire and prevent entry due to safety concerns. Typically a resort won't tangle with a person unless the danger is very real. Resorts don't just make the call on roped of terrain for the fun of it. Yea patroller's can be uptight. But would you want to find someone dead or injured. Would you want to be the one to break the news to someone's family. If they were being real dicks they could have just taken your passes and 86'd you from the resort. Yea some of them get a little power mad. But they sure are nice to have there when you or someone you know needs them. 

To find out for sure why not write and email or letter to your local Forest Service and BLM offices to find out for sure. You also should be able to find the lease agreements with resorts online I think.

Here is a link that might prove interesting. Pay attention to where it says forest closures.
http://summitcountyvoice.com/2011/02/27/colorado-new-backcountry-access-at-breckenridge-ski-area/


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## sabatoa (Jan 18, 2011)

okay so my google-fu is failing. What is deadfalling? Is it the same as getting caught in a tree well?


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## AWNOW (Sep 12, 2009)

sabatoa said:


> okay so my google-fu is failing. What is deadfalling? Is it the same as getting caught in a tree well?


deadfall are trees that are dead and have fallen to the ground.


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## killclimbz (Aug 10, 2007)

Colorado law is pretty clear on this one. Going through the trees and accessing a run that is closed is against the law. I've been popped on this one too. If the run is roped off from the usual access point than it's closed. End of story. 

Yes there can be avalanche danger. Especially right now. Shit is so freakin' touchy. I've already set off several avalanches testing slopes from a safe spot at Bert. 5 to be exact. It didn't take much effort either. Not enough to bury a person, but you'd be dragged over rocks, logs, and such. Not fun.

So ducking ropes at resorts. Yes I do it when I ride resorts. I also know the terrain I am going after and have a good idea if it's risky or not. Lot's of places at Copper where the snow depth is the main issue right now. There are a few spots that can and do slide. This is very early season right now and the pack where it hasn't been controlled is touchy to say the least. I might duck a rope, but the reality is I'd probably just ride the rope line. It's thin, and one fall in the wrong spot could easily end your season. Even the backcountry I did at Bert, I opted to walk out of a spot where I usually ride, due to the thin snowpack. Not interested in being laid up while the snow is just getting good.

To each his own though. If you get caught by ski patrol your responses should be very apologetic. "Yes sir, I am sorry sir, I won't do it again sir" or Ma'am depending on who is busting your ass. Also it means you broke the golden rule. "Don't get caught". Which was your first mistake anyway.

Ski patrol would have been perfectly within their rights to take your pass. Don't forget that. Nothing you could have done.


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## StreetDoc (Dec 24, 2011)

killclimbz said:


> Colorado law is pretty clear on this one. Going through the trees and accessing a run that is closed is against the law. I've been popped on this one too. If the run is roped off from the usual access point than it's closed. End of story.
> 
> Yes there can be avalanche danger. Especially right now. Shit is so freakin' touchy. I've already set off several avalanches testing slopes from a safe spot at Bert. 5 to be exact. It didn't take much effort either. Not enough to bury a person, but you'd be dragged over rocks, logs, and such. Not fun.
> 
> ...



Thanks, that's exactly what I was looking for. We were obviously very apologetic. :thumbsup: Snow depth was the issue, but again I felt safe enough if I kept the nose of the board up. It's funny you talk about the golden rule... I kept an eye out all day, and didn't see a single red coat. As soon as I stopped looking. BAM.


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## hikeswithdogs (Sep 23, 2011)

I do it here at my local resort(Brighton) to access private land in the sidecountry but it's not an avy danger issue....hell the vast majority of those people don't even live here in the winter and it's fun riding through their back yards and dropping onto the main road at the end of the day for a quick 5 minute walk back to the car.


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## snowklinger (Aug 30, 2011)

Slide Danger is off the FUCKING HOOK RIGHT NOW. If you know anything about BC or snowpack (which relatively I don't) you would know better than to ride anywhere out of bounds right now. The last week 20 inches have fallen on loveland and there are cracks and slides to the ground EVERYWHERE. The same I have heard for Berthoud, cracked and scary as fuck.

Ski Patrol Saved Your Life.

Or keep doing what u do.

A kid died at Vail this time last year doing the same shit.

disclaimer: you are probably more experienced than I, but I was really shocked by all the small slides straight to bare ground all over Loveland today, but getting dragged across boulders and into trees in shallow snow sounds like a real bore. Also hung with a buddy today we know as Backcountry Rob, from which any insight that might be in this post is probably regurgitated. Plus Killclimbz really doesn't need to be followed in any of these threads....sorry 

Stay alive shred on.


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## slyder (Jan 18, 2010)

AWNOW said:


> deadfall are trees that are dead and have fallen to the ground.


I figured this one out but "Skin up a hill or Skinning" as Snowolf mentioned. This refers to walking or hiking up the hill I'm guessing??

I learn a lot just reading stuff like this. Midwest bunny hills compared to your mountains I would never run into this. But I am wanting to take a trip with my boys at sometime so this is all knowledge shoved into the brain reserves. 
I guarantee we are just groom, maybe, tree riders. Still good reads...


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## StreetDoc (Dec 24, 2011)

Snowolf said:


> Regarding policies about skinning in a resort. It all depends upon the nature of the negotiated lease with the forest service and as Shredlife and I discovered talking to a patroller where we ride, the country that the resort and national forest area is in.
> 
> At Meadows, they do not allow *ANY* uphill travel *AT ALL *regardless if open or not as long as the resort is operating for the season because of grooming, avy control and other equipment operations. Off season, it reverts to standard national forest policy. In addition, if you skin up above Meadows to shred Wy East Face on Mt. Hood, you also cannot re enter and ride in the resort on the way down. You must stay out of the resort entirely.
> 
> ...


Thanks, I guess I need to talk to the people at Copper and Winter Park. I plan on doing a decent amount of this after my Avy class


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## snowvols (Apr 16, 2008)

Slyder - Skinning is using skins on either the bottom of your skis or splitboard to travel uphilll to prevent you from sliding back.

OP - This is dumb and should be a nonissue. Stay alive. I know your guys pack should pretty much be facets on the ground. Don't die and ride within the boundaries if you don't know whats up.


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## chomps1211 (Mar 30, 2011)

sabatoa said:


> okay so my google-fu is failing. What is deadfalling? Is it the same as getting caught in a tree well?





AWNOW said:


> deadfall are trees that are dead and have fallen to the ground.


...and as it relates to what the patrol said about riding where these guys were, I presume "deadfall's" refers to submarining the nose of your snowboard under a fallen log while the rest of you goes "Over?" Essentially,.. cutting you off at the knees??


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## slyder (Jan 18, 2010)

snowvols said:


> Slyder - Skinning is using skins on either the bottom of your skis or splitboard to travel uphilll to prevent you from sliding back.


so now I am confused is this like cross country skiing to get up the hill. I must add never goggled to see what split boarding is about I know it's your snowboard cut in half that is about it, not to get off topic.
Similar to using snow shoes but this would eliminate more gear is my guess.


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## ShredLife (Feb 6, 2010)

slyder said:


> so now I am confused is this like cross country skiing to get up the hill. I must add never goggled to see what split boarding is about I know it's your snowboard cut in half that is about it, not to get off topic.
> Similar to using snow shoes but this would eliminate more gear is my guess.


dude. do a youtube search.


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## StreetDoc (Dec 24, 2011)

chomps1211 said:


> ...and as it relates to what the patrol said about riding where these guys were, I presume "deadfall's" refers to submarining the nose of your snowboard under a fallen log while the rest of you goes "Over?" Essentially,.. cutting you off at the knees??


yes which is why I said I felt it was impossible are at least highly unprobable.... I've been riding for 15 years lol... come on. Of course there are going to be the posters that believe "YERRRR GONNNA DIE!" for riding 5' the other side of a rope but whatever. I'm an adult and if that's the choice I want to make I will be paying the consequence. I would gladly sign a waiver stating don't come and find me if I submarine myself under a dead tree and am not able to self rescue if it meant I could duck ropes without consequence. I have a little avalanche training, but not enough yet... it's coming though. I don't ride the back country. In the past when I have ducked ropes I'd say I'm always within 20' of it (including this occassion.)


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## AIRider (Dec 25, 2010)

I ducked the ropes a few times, but they were right under the chairlift. Lol. 

Ski patrol laughed and said ride at your own risk.


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## StreetDoc (Dec 24, 2011)

AIRider said:


> I ducked the ropes a few times, but they were right under the chairlift. Lol.
> 
> Ski patrol laughed and said ride at your own risk.


basically exactly what we did but they weren't very happy. Where was this at?


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## AIRider (Dec 25, 2010)

StreetDoc said:


> basically exactly what we did but they weren't very happy. Where was this at?


Whistler. 

But I could see all the pow, it was beautiful. I think it was off limits due to poor coverage.. But if you weren't a dumbass you could see the uncovered rocks, etc.


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