# The biomechanics of snowboarding - tall vs short



## Leo

ChuChu said:


> It seems every time a CASI instructor looks at the way I ride the first thing that comes out of their mouth is "straighten up your upper body and bend at the knees more". Now I don't doubt that I could always use some more knee bend but the one thing I have been wondering about lately is whether there is a difference in the biomechanics of riding stance for tall riders vs short riders. Do you think the same rules apply for a guy who is 5'6" as someone who is 6'2"? Maybe I am just looking for excuses here but it seems to me if I follow the advice of the midget instructors to the letter that my balance feels off.


Same basic rules will apply no matter your height. Obviously, if you are overweight, that will be an entirely different story since bending will be quite a chore. Put it this way... in sports, coaches make their entire team do the same exercise drills. That is because the mechanics will be the same no matter their height. The difference comes into play when they coach for specific positions such as quarterback and receiver etc...

All of your basic snowboarding skills will be the same no matter your height. When it comes to you jumping and doing tricks, that is when you'll need specific advice due to the physics of it all. Same goes for just getting speed down the slope because of drag and float etc...


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## matttehman

ChuChu , I can't help but picture a lanky 6'2" guy all bent over straight legged with his wings out like an airplane plowing down the mountain. :laugh:


But really, Leo gave sound advice. Try out the proper way for awhile and overtime you will adjust your riding to suit your comfort needs.


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## ChuChu

matttehman said:


> ChuChu , I can't help but picture a lanky 6'2" guy all bent over straight legged with his wings out like an airplane plowing down the mountain. :laugh:
> 
> 
> But really, Leo gave sound advice. Try out the proper way for awhile and overtime you will adjust your riding to suit your comfort needs.


lol I just saw some guy doing this yesterday down the hill and I made a mental note to steer clear of him.

Let me try to go into more detail into what I am talking about here guys. This is a quote talking about weightlifting squat mechanics:



> But then I figured something out: There's a limiting factor in squatting, which I call segmental proportion. What I realized was that athletes with long femurs relative to the length of the torso will be lousy squatters. These guys were almost always forwards or centers, six-feet-five or taller.
> 
> But it's not just about height — some tall basketball players are actually very good squatters. And before you launch into keyboard-commando mode in the discussion thread, let me assure you that these segmentally challenged athletes don't lack desire or put out less effort than anyone else.
> 
> The problem is that a guy with these proportions needs an extreme forward lean when he squats, making it look like he's doing a good morning. He'll generally be frustrated with his inability to do the exercise correctly, and may suffer back pain.
> 
> Eventually, I could identify these athletes before we got anywhere near the squat rack. Basketball players with exceptionally long femurs always look short sitting down. I remember sitting next to one and realizing that, despite the fact he was eight inches taller than me, we were eye-to-eye in a chair.
> 
> My advice to athletes and fellow coaches: If you or an athlete you train is built proportionally and can squat with good form, go for it. If the athlete is "all legs," be careful: You're looking at a square peg.



So you see what I am saying about 1 size fits all stance advice? Guys with different proportions might have to shift their stance slightly to maintain their center of balance. For me that equates to slightly more forward lean at the waist than most other guys. The reason I pulled out the squat quote is because A) I couldn't find anything snowboard specific on this topic and B) I go through this same issue with squats where I get told I am leaning too much at the waist yet if it do it "properly" and to the letter I will literally fall over backwards because "properly" for me = center of balance thrown off.

Hopefull this explains it better.


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## Leo

That quote you pulled has to do with stationary squats. There is a huge difference when it comes to snowboarding because for one, you have a snowboard under you feet. Two, you are moving down hill. The third factor you need to consider is toe and heel side turns. If you aren't centered on the board, you will definitely catch an edge sooner or later.

Another huge difference between the squats and snowboarding, you aren't going to be doing an extreme squat like in a defensive basketball position. It is just a relaxed bend at the knees with your back straight and your shoulders squared over the board. Watch a good snowboarder going down the hill while initiating toe and heel side carves (Snowolf probably knows the correct term for this action. It is when a snowboarder is rocking the board from toeside to heelside edges as they go in a straight line). Even though he is carving from edge to edge, he will be going in a straight line with only his lower body making movements. His upper body will be stationary down the whole run.

By the way, Snowolf is the neighborhood expert instructor around here so I advise you listen to his well, advice. Don't try to look for excuses to justify your posture. Try it out.

I take that back, you should bend a little more than a relaxed bend when you are turning and carving. Squatting to basketball defense levels means you are doing aggressive turning and carving.


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## ChuChu

Thanks for the help guys, I'll keep working at it.


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## lisevolution

As someone who has let themselves get severely over weight the last couple of seasons I can personally vouch for being bent over at the waist as the wrong way to snowboard. In order to compensate for my gut, my whole body position is thrown off and makes my riding performance much less stable. When I was lighter I was better able to keep my form proper and my riding was significantly better


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## Tarzanman

Without saying its "wrong" (different strokes, and all that) and ignoring the specifics of snowboarding, you should think of the best stance being any stance that will allow you to shift your weight/balance quickly with stability.

Bottom to top, the available joints are ankles, knees, waist, back, neck. 

Run up to a friend(s) and try to shove them a couple of feet. Watch how they try to maintain their balance. Most people (who don't fall) will probably bend their knees and lower their center of gravity to reduce the moment of inertia acting to tip them over...and THEN bend their waist or torso after they have a relatively stable lower body.

Almost no one (who is sober) will stumble side-to-side stiff legged without bending their knees much. Locking one of your joints into a fixed position (like keeping your legs straight) eliminates one of the tools your body can adjust to right itself, and definitely makes staying upright more difficult.

Its not impossible to ride a snowboard with relatively straight legs, but it requires much finer skill and speed with balancing by a rider

With balancing in general , multiple, quick, small adjustments are better than infrequent, huge adjustments. If you are only using your upper torso to move your body, then your adjustments will be bigger.


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## Guest

ChuChu...

I have been working on bending more at the knees and ankles as well. I'm a 6 foot dude with most of the height in the legs. It takes quite a bit more energy to ride with proper technique but it also allows the rider to gracefully manage more difficult terrain. The one thing I have been doing to improve my riding that has produced the most results has been yoga. I'm no yoga master, but it seems to train the body to work as efficiently as possible and improves balance quite a bit. It also trains you how to breath while maintaining strong core stability. My advice to you would be to take some yoga classes; start slow and concentrate on proper technique more than doing all the poses to the extreme. Focus extra hard on the poses you find most difficult; they are difficult because you don't have the muscle that would make them easy.

Good luck!


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## Grizz

Tarzanman said:


> Without saying its "wrong" (different strokes, and all that) and ignoring the specifics of snowboarding, you should think of the best stance being any stance that will allow you to shift your weight/balance quickly with stability.
> 
> Bottom to top, the available joints are ankles, knees, waist, back, neck.


I'd add hips between knees and waist. Largest joint in the body and important to boarding. Waist, back and neck are all spine.


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## NateGC

Here's my excercise for getting your back straight, just for something to try. 

When you are out riding next, try getting on your toeside and rolling forward onto the balls of your feet in a centered stance. Let your knees and hips natrually follow that movement, while keeping your shoulders relatively quiet, and you will tend to find your spine start to straighten out, or uncurve. (The guys/children's version I use is "push your hips out like you're peeing over a log and you don't want it to splash you.") But I like the subtle approach with the focus from the feet up.

On your heels, it's a bit tougher. Think about that feeling that you had with your hips on your toeside when you rolled forward and try to duplicate that. I find that to do this, start on a gradual slope and play with pushing your knees forward to un-edge the board in a heelside slip (again, try to keep your shoulders in the same spot, letting the rest of your body move naturally underneath them.) From the un-edged/knee forward position that you've created, use your toes to pull up the edge of the board without letting your butt move back. That'll put you in the position to give you the control to change edges without the full body movements that a curved spine forces.

Try it out and good luck!
Anyone feel free to pitch in if I left something out or mixed up a movements effects on the spine or something. Haha.


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## BurtonAvenger

You realize this thread is from fucking 2009 and we're half way through 2012 right?


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## NateGC

Yea, I happened across it on a google search today though, so someone else might too. If someone has a similar question, it may not matter that it's an old thread, and the info will still be useful. Snowboarding questions never get old, so maybe I gave someone a good idea who had already commented, or maybe it'll be a good idea for someone who Google's a similar question. 
If not, sorry for bringing up an old topic.


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## adhclark

No idea if the OP is still around to see this, but FWIW:

I am 6'6" and go about 240. I have been riding for about 15 years and have ridden boards from 158-168 in length. I currently ride a 162 as I lap park regularly and like to play around.

No matter what size I have ridden, mechanics for straight up riding don't change. Center your weight over your board, keep the joints soft and flexible and don't get the weight moving to wild in any direction.

Now, if you want to start throwing stuff, that's a bit different. It took me a while to get comfortable learning how to whip around all of me. Very slight changes in posture and position translate to big changes when airborne. Of course this is just my personal experience, but seems like it would make sense for any larger-than-the-average-bear shredder. Center of gravity can be a bitch!

If you plan to get technical, get really comfortable with your riding posture and then work on your ollies so you know how it all feels it the air.


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## tallrider74

I'm 6'6 and snowboard lol park to powder


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## Extazy

tallrider74 said:


> I'm 6'6 and snowboard lol park to powder


This forum appreciates your constructive thoughts on this topic! Keep it up! :thumbsup:


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## snoeboarder

BurtonAvenger said:


> You realize this thread is from fucking 2009 and we're half way through 2012 right?


almost 2017 bump


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## NickW

2022 bump 🙃

Came looking for this, and pretty sure OP is (unfortunately) correct.

If your femur is proportionately longer than your tibia, you're naturally going to have more difficulty keeping your torso upright when bending at the knees compared to others. Short torso makes the need to hinge at the waist worse, and poor ankle mobility makes femur length have more of an impact. This doesn't mean you can't be good at, or look good while snowboarding, it just means you might have more of an upright stance.

Think about it this way, if two people have the exact same ankle mobility, but one has longer femurs, when they bend - even a relaxed bend - they're going to have more difficulty keeping their weight centered because their longer upper legs sets their weight further back. The way to shift their weight more centrally is to have a better ankle range of motion, or to hinge at the waist. One is difficult to achieve, the other looks shit.

I suffer from this, and it's a bitch. With a goblet squat I can sit ass to grass all day, and my ankle mobility is fine (measured from a wall), but my ability to squat even to a shallow depth without weight is _embarassing_, I straight up can't do it, I tip over, and that translates unfortunately to boarding. Sure you can make up for it with technique, but that's like saying technique can make up for stiffness after injury. Of course it can, but you're still going to look more upright compared to someone uninjured with the same technique/skill 🤷‍♂️.

I've not tried it out on a board yet, but I reckon a wider stance and angles should help, along with training the shit out your your ankles and hips (recommend squat university on youtube and kneesovertoesguy). Meanwhile, keep taking shit from any instructor you might have, because it's a reason to be better, and you definitely could be


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## FriendlyDropBear

Adding 2c (oops... ended up being 10c) as this thread is on front page and someone might need a nudge.
I struggle with this. I am not tall. My legs are short. I have a pair of words which have proven to be the ultimate issue.

ANKLE DORSIFLEXION

The athletic pose called for in snowboarding, surfing, martial arts, etc isn't really a squat.
Thinking of the motion as trying to get your knees as close to the ground as you can without lifting your heels is much more productive! An easy way to feel what I'm trying to say hear is to stand in your snowboard stance with your heels against a wall, then try to crouch as low as you can without lifting your heels off the ground while keeping your torso parallel with and in contact with the wall.
This is when you'll start to realise that the reason you're breaking at the waist is the inability to keep your bum over your heels, as a result of your knees not being far enough out over your toes.

If you keep hearing that advice, want to blame it on your skeleton, stop, take a step back, and assess your ankle mobility.
A simple test is to place your foot pointing towards a wall with about a hands width (as a minimum) from the wall and then push your knee forwards to also touch the wall. If you can't touch the wall with your heel planted on the ground you 100% need to work on that ankle!
I've found a million great youtube tutorials on rolling out and stretching the soft tissue around lower calf that made notable improvements within a few days.
For folks with longer femurs you might need to achieve something like a 15-20cm distance from the wall to have the same effect.

On top of everything above.... take a very close look at your stance setup. If this is something you're really struggling with and you're confident your ankle mobility is as good as it could be, try this little test.
Set your feet in snowboard stance and try to lower into the back straight, athletic pose. If this is difficult, rotate your back foot heel outwards (push heel out not toe in.... probably a worthwhile discussion in itself re stance width and stance angle relationship) I would pretty safely guess that if you push your heel out to a new stance angle of something closer to 0 at the rear, you'll find that you can now push your knee towards the 'nose' of your imaginary board and get much lower more comfortably.
In which case (unless you're very park focused and genuinely riding switch half the time) it might be worth doing a few days on snow with your rear binding at 0 +3 rather than the -12 or more that you might have it at now, based on lots of advice towards +15/-15 stance angles.

I wrote more than I intended.... but as I said, this has been a sticking point for me in both surfing and snowboarding and I definitely do not have long femurs.

🤷‍♂️


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## 16gkid




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## Manicmouse

I'm +36/-30, am I doing this all wrong?


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## Etienne

My ankles are as stiff as a door, but I'm smart enough to ride boots even stiffer so I don't notice 🧠 .

As for the straight back, I think taller riders have a tendancy to ride with their back arched (Terje, Stale, Xavier…). Still they are super low on their leg and super solid on their plevis/core.


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## Etienne

Manicmouse said:


> I'm +36/-30, am I doing this all wrong?


You just mounted them the wrong way. -30/+36 is the way to go.


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## NickW

FriendlyDropBear said:


> If you keep hearing that advice, want to blame it on your skeleton, stop, take a step back, and assess your ankle mobility.
> 
> ...I definitely do not have long femurs.
> 
> 🤷‍♂️


To be fair these two things can both be true. Poor posture can be ankle related, down to the relative femur length (and increased ankle mobility needed to compenstate), or I'd guess a variety of other things 🤷‍♂️

Having short legs also doesn't mean you don't have that problem. I've short legs, but relatively long femurs. My ankle mobility could be better, but I can easily get my knees to the wall with my feet a palm away, which seems to be the standard test. I've also found in the past that my mobility increases with flaired stances, although I used to do fine with a straighter back foot so will check that out again


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## WigMar

I've been working on ankle flexibility for awhile. It really unlocked the next level of low carving for me. I can squat all the way to the ground with my heels flat on the floor now.


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## DrLemonLime

FriendlyDropBear said:


> Adding 2c (oops... ended up being 10c) as this thread is on front page and someone might need a nudge.
> I struggle with this. I am not tall. My legs are short. I have a pair of words which have proven to be the ultimate issue.
> 
> ANKLE DORSIFLEXION
> 
> The athletic pose called for in snowboarding, surfing, martial arts, etc isn't really a squat.
> Thinking of the motion as trying to get your knees as close to the ground as you can without lifting your heels is much more productive! An easy way to feel what I'm trying to say hear is to stand in your snowboard stance with your heels against a wall, then try to crouch as low as you can without lifting your heels off the ground while keeping your torso parallel with and in contact with the wall.
> This is when you'll start to realise that the reason you're breaking at the waist is the inability to keep your bum over your heels, as a result of your knees not being far enough out over your toes.
> 
> If you keep hearing that advice, want to blame it on your skeleton, stop, take a step back, and assess your ankle mobility.
> A simple test is to place your foot pointing towards a wall with about a hands width (as a minimum) from the wall and then push your knee forwards to also touch the wall. If you can't touch the wall with your heel planted on the ground you 100% need to work on that ankle!
> I've found a million great youtube tutorials on rolling out and stretching the soft tissue around lower calf that made notable improvements within a few days.
> For folks with longer femurs you might need to achieve something like a 15-20cm distance from the wall to have the same effect.
> 
> On top of everything above.... take a very close look at your stance setup. If this is something you're really struggling with and you're confident your ankle mobility is as good as it could be, try this little test.
> Set your feet in snowboard stance and try to lower into the back straight, athletic pose. If this is difficult, rotate your back foot heel outwards (push heel out not toe in.... probably a worthwhile discussion in itself re stance width and stance angle relationship) I would pretty safely guess that if you push your heel out to a new stance angle of something closer to 0 at the rear, you'll find that you can now push your knee towards the 'nose' of your imaginary board and get much lower more comfortably.
> In which case (unless you're very park focused and genuinely riding switch half the time) it might be worth doing a few days on snow with your rear binding at 0 +3 rather than the -12 or more that you might have it at now, based on lots of advice towards +15/-15 stance angles.
> 
> I wrote more than I intended.... but as I said, this has been a sticking point for me in both surfing and snowboarding and I definitely do not have long femurs.
> 
> 🤷‍♂️


Thank you so much. This was really useful, however, I do have a question. i dont have any problems with the mechanics of snowboarding. My ankle dorsiflexion capabilities are in great condition and I can ride and carve fast. But when it comes to jumps, i struggle to crouch before the jump without losing balance and i lose balance in the air as well. Whenever I skate down stairs like a minimum 5 stair, i have no problem doing an ollie and keeping balance in the air. I am lead to believe that my snowboard boot prevents me from flexing my ankle which throws off my entire mechanics of riding and balance. How do I combat this problem? Is my boot too stiff? Should I rise a looser boot?


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## Board Doctor

I know what you mean (though my park days are WAY behind me). It’s probably more that the skateboard tracks straight (and you can balance yourself laterally), whereas the base of the snowboard does not (and there isn’t the same lateral friction to get your balance). I‘m more comfortable on an edge, so a side hit feels more natural and stable to me. I’m not sure I explained that well… but I don’t really have an answer.


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## Board Doctor

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## Etienne

WigMar said:


> I've been working on ankle flexibility for awhile. It really unlocked the next level of low carving for me. I can squat all the way to the ground with my heels flat on the floor now.


For me it was a mix of ankle and hip flexibility. A mix of squat mobility and split squat helped a lot. 

It has allowed to use softer boots, getting lower and trying to rely more on my core muscle (or actual lack thereof). Although I still have to force my self a bit, because I get back to stiff legs out off my laziness habit.

Really, for playful all mountain, I was riding stiff boots to compensate my lack of squat mobility. Sure it get the job done and feels securing to feel that much support when leaning, but not flexing the boot thus not flexing the legs enough, blocks a lot of things that needs your centre of gravity close to your feet or legs more bent. I realize I was missing out on some boards because of that. 

Envoyé de mon H8324 en utilisant Tapatalk


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