# Worth it to move 'up' to superstiff gear?



## Lamps (Sep 3, 2011)

A good way to find out is to go to the burton demo hut at the top of whistler gondola, (it's open daily I believe), hand in the machete and take out a burton custom X with either cartels or diodes if they have any diodes. 

Sounds like you might like carving so maybe that will be your thing. Expect to catch an edge or two at first relative to the machete.


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## timmytard (Mar 19, 2009)

Get stiff boots, without a doubt.

They are the key.

If you think this is good?

You just wait, you're gonna shit your pants.

What size are your feet?


TT


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## wildshoetwt (Feb 14, 2013)

Stiff bindings are optional, but for someone who prefers freeriding, stiffer boots are an absolute must. Sure, you can't nose press very easily, if at all, but what you gain in terms of control (responsibility), power, confidence, and response will make you wonder why you ever started with something more flexible.


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## keel_bright (Jan 13, 2013)

Lamps said:


> A good way to find out is to go to the burton demo hut at the top of whistler gondola, (it's open daily I believe), hand in the machete and take out a burton custom X with either cartels or diodes if they have any diodes.
> 
> Sounds like you might like carving so maybe that will be your thing. Expect to catch an edge or two at first relative to the machete.


!! It's small and looks like a big tent thing right? Never ventured in there, should really be more exploratory. I'll definitely check it out, thanks!



> Get stiff boots, without a doubt.
> 
> They are the key.
> 
> ...


Interesting. Boots before bindings then? My feet are size 9, and I'm asian so they're probably on the narrower side of the spectrum.


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## Extremo (Nov 6, 2008)

timmytard said:


> Get stiff boots, without a doubt.
> 
> They are the key.
> 
> ...


Yeah I agree. Stiffer boots make all the difference in the world. Not saying stiffer boots will allow you to ride a Horrorscope the same way as a Blacklight, but if your board and bindings are already in the mid to stiff range a good set of freeride boots will add a ton of response.


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## timmytard (Mar 19, 2009)

keel_bright said:


> !! It's small and looks like a big tent thing right? Never ventured in there, should really be more exploratory. I'll definitely check it out, thanks!
> 
> 
> 
> Interesting. Boots before bindings then? My feet are size 9, and I'm asian so they're probably on the narrower side of the spectrum.


Well, today might be your lucky day?:dunno:

I have a pair of 32 Juhyo's in a size 9

They are pretty much brand new, only worn for a few hours

They are sweet boots & they are stiff, better than almost all the other 32 boots, they have a level 4 liner.

The Juhyo FT has a level 4
The Lashed only has a level 3
The Binary-boa has level 3
The Stw-boa level 3
The Jp-walker-light has a level 2

Originally they were $220

I'll let them go for $100

A lot of people seem to think the Lashed is awesome.
It's kinda soft IMO.
Try these on, instantly you can tell they're better. 
Not super stiff, but they will feel that way @ first compared to noodles.

I like that there isn't a million different types of materials in stupid patterns that could come apart.

The top is one piece & the bottom is another piece that's it.


TT


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## East§ide (Mar 14, 2011)

those are actually really dope looking /\ they remind me of top siders


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## wildshoetwt (Feb 14, 2013)

Snowolf said:


> Stiffer does not necessarily mean more advanced. Flex differences on equipment are incorporated by design depending upon the intended use of the equipment based on rider style and personal preference. A rider who typically likes to be playful with a more freestyle oriented riding style is usually going to prefer softer flexing equipment. A rider who prefers to bomb groomers or get into high speed carving will lean toward stiffer gear.
> 
> Then there is personal preference in the way a rider likes the equipment to feel. I carve hard and fast and prefer big mountain lines and technical steeps but I do not like overly stiff gear. The main reason for this is because I have small feet for my weight and on technical steeps, a rider needs the ability to get the most out the board`s ability to torsionally twist for dynamic skidded turns. With a very torsionally stiff deck, a rider with small or average sized feet will not be able to fully utilize twist in their riding. I also do like to get playful on natural features and I ride long hours every day that I ride and I just find that having softer, damper gear is generally more comfortable.
> 
> ...


i honestly can hardly tell the difference from high-end binding to high-end binding in the allmountain category. boots however were huge, i have constantly gone stiffer and stiffer, each step up took some getting used to, and definitely took some gnarly spills i shouldnt have (start small get adjusted, etc)
but it just seems that the stiffer i go with boots the more responsible i feel for what happens when i strap-in. while i agree it somewhat limits the ability to be extremely dynamic when riding, you can still ride quite dynamically and playfully...

i ride the burton driver x 2012/2013. i might try the malamute or thraxis next. 

for me personally, i don't like wiping out because i caught an edge wearing 32 prion's and park bindings that i couldn't adjust for in time. i ride a traditional camber board that is fairly unforgiving, soft boots are not an option, they are too slow to respond, not supportive enough, and do not transfer all the small movements that your leg makes that get lost/absorbed in a noodle boot, also you lose alot of flow and power and ultimately dominance over the mountain with a noodle boot.

i'd strongly suggest finding a med-stiff boot/binding combo that can achieve your goals that has a reputation for being very responsive. the Ambush/Ruler + Union SL is a versatile combo that will be very responsive and perform fine in the park.


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## jml22 (Apr 10, 2012)

I like soft stuff with more bounce to them.
Dont like the feeling of being ultra stiff at high speeds feeling every flipping bump that could send me flying. I think of my bindings/boots as shock absorbers, i stay loose and let it rip.


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## timmytard (Mar 19, 2009)

jml22 said:


> I like soft stuff with more bounce to them.
> Dont like the feeling of being ultra stiff at high speeds feeling every flipping bump that could send me flying. I think of my bindings/boots as shock absorbers, i stay loose and let it rip.


But that's not how it really works

I think you've got it backwards

I can haul ass, & I'm sure others around here can as well.

You can't haul ass in noodles, you'd tweak your ankles in under 5 min.

I too, think of my boots as shock absorbers.

With my stiff ass boots, I can do big drops & the boots will absorb the impact.


15 or so years ago, I bought a brand new pair of Airwalk Extremes.
@ the time they were the stiffest boot out there.
The tongue ripped out & the store didn't have the same boot.

The cock suckers wouldn't give me my money back only store credit.
They were $300, but I didn't have another $300 to spend somewhere else.
So I was forced to pick from the garbage they had left.

The only boot they had in my size was the Airwalk Advantage.
With a seasons pass going to waste, I didn't really have a choice.

Picked those & had $150 credit left.

The first day I used them, I blew out my ankle.

Done for the season.


Soft boots are for rookies:bowdown:


TT


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## jml22 (Apr 10, 2012)

Maybe i was exaggerating just a bit ahaha. I wouldnt classify my gear as noodles.


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## keel_bright (Jan 13, 2013)

timmytard said:


> Well, today might be your lucky day?:dunno:
> 
> I have a pair of 32 Juhyo's in a size 9
> 
> TT


Man! I wish I saw you post that first, as soon as I saw the consensus here that stiff boots were next I booked it to get a new pair! I picked up a pair of DC Ceptors. I'm glad I posted this thread though - before this I had my eye on a pair of Rome Targas with the same noodle boot.

Thanks for everything you have posted, everyone! I hope in time I will find the exact build I like in time (I started this season) but I know I like responsiveness and precision, and the move up from my noodle Forum to mid-stiff Machete was amazing. I know that I like the precision of camber compared to rocker, and that's actually one thing I regret about getting the Machete. If these new boots end up being too stiff maybe I'll break them in a bit using my hands haha.


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## jml22 (Apr 10, 2012)

I have an RC with flux tt30 bindings, love it. So fun /so much play in between carves, feels really smooth when you start getting your legs into it.


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## timmytard (Mar 19, 2009)

Snowolf said:


> I agree. I find that I prefer to use good body movements to achieve desired board performance rather than try to rely on my equipment and then find it limits my ability to have fun doing natural freestyle or take a lap through the park after I just dropped a technical steep chute. A good rider can get the desired performance out of mid flex gear.
> 
> Some people prefer a different feel and like the extra support that stiffness provides and that is fine but snowboarding is not a one size fits all activity. To say that mid flex gear does not perform well for advanced riding is incorrect. People should choose the gear that best matches their riding style.


Closet hard booter eh? I knew ithmy: Just fuckin' wit chya.
I'm probably going to try it for the first time this week:dunno:
Kinda excited to rail some extreme carves.

I don't disagree that mid flex gear will perform well for advanced riding.
But boots are *THE* one thing that will enable you to go LARGEmg:

You just can't fly through the air 30 or 50 feet without them.
In fairy tale land where the transition of every landing is so smooth you don't feel it, Maybe

But I'd constantly have shit in my drawers, knowing there is a chance that some unforeseen event could cause my boot to fold in half, with my foot in it.
Maybe the odd time, but 9 out of 10 times your ankles are gonna explode


TT


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## timmytard (Mar 19, 2009)

keel_bright said:


> Man! I wish I saw you post that first, as soon as I saw the consensus here that stiff boots were next I booked it to get a new pair! I picked up a pair of DC Ceptors. I'm glad I posted this thread though - before this I had my eye on a pair of Rome Targas with the same noodle boot.
> 
> Thanks for everything you have posted, everyone! I hope in time I will find the exact build I like in time (I started this season) but I know I like responsiveness and precision, and the move up from my noodle Forum to mid-stiff Machete was amazing. I know that I like the precision of camber compared to rocker, and that's actually one thing I regret about getting the Machete. If these new boots end up being too stiff maybe I'll break them in a bit using my hands haha.


Well, depending on where you got them & how much?

Maybe you can return them & save some money?

I like money.


TT


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## lisevolution (Sep 20, 2007)

I'm with Snowolf on this one... I used to be all about the stiffest gear I could find until I realized that I was actually restricting my mobility more than increasing my responsiveness. Now I ride a mid-stiff NS Legacy with Mid-Stiff K2 Ever bindings and Mid-Stiff Northwave Decade's. I like the response of the stiffer binding though it's a far cry from my days of Riding Ride SPi's and CAD's, but I prefer the feel of being able to properly flex my feet and ankles rather than using body lean to create board leverage. I do think there's definitely a place for everything though and you should ride what is most comfortable for you. That in the end is all that really matters. With all the options out there now people get overwhelmed by the tech and hype that they go out and drop serious cash on gear only to find they hate it and then have to go out and buy more gear and spend more dough. It's not how much it costs or how hyped it is etc. it about what feels right to you especially when it comes to boots.


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## Casual (Feb 9, 2011)

I was going to post here but Snowolf already said everything I wanted to say. 

but I will anyways.

I've been riding for 20+ years on all terrain on all kinds of boards, boots and binding configurations that have come and gone. I ride soft to mid soft gear because I prefer it, not just for park but for all riding. I just don't like the feel of stiff gear and I do not feel this holds me back in any way, nor do I believe stiffness of gear is in any way related to skill level or quality.


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## herjazz (Feb 20, 2013)

i enjoyed the discussion here, especially input from experienced riders that have tried so much variation of gear of their years of riding... (i may have 10+ years of riding, but it's on the same gear so i have no way to compare... :/ )


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## jml22 (Apr 10, 2012)

I'm going to free ride on some RK-30s just becaues of this thread


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## keel_bright (Jan 13, 2013)

Yeah, what everyone has been saying in this thread has been interesting and surprising to me. Lots to learn =)

Hey, I don't really want to start a new thread so I'll post this question here ..

What am I going to be looking at if I want to head up to Cypress Saturday March 2? I'm not sure what to make of these conditions .. pouring rain the day before .. Will it be rideable or should I bail?

6 day Cypress Mountain snow forecast for 1124 m

Thanks!!


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## Rod (Feb 2, 2013)

*ankles, knees, hips*



timmytard said:


> Closet hard booter eh? I knew ithmy: Just fuckin' wit chya.
> I'm probably going to try it for the first time this week:dunno:
> Kinda excited to rail some extreme carves.
> 
> ...


After snowboarding on and off for 25 years I've got a different perspective now. Never did do big drops or airs but went from Sorel soft boots to Burton hard boots and now have a pair or Rulers. I just bought a Custom X (to provide variety from my Malolo) and I wonder if I need to go back to stiffer boots. But... I have developed a bad knee over the years. So I think I want my ankles to flex and give my knee a bit of a break. Some physio once told me that ankle injuries and lasting stiffness ultimately transfers stress to the knees and hips -- back etc. 

Next weekend I test drive the Custom X so I'll see what I think then. I really did like the old hard boot setup (with Nitro Scorpion) and the snappy turns but don't see myself going back to a highly directional stick again - too much fun switching and goofing around on the hill.

Anyway, I think I agree in general with Snow wolfe that a medium flex suits me best.


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## wildshoetwt (Feb 14, 2013)

i'm frankly shocked that anyone here recommends riding the most comfortable equipment possible.

good luck doing intense tree runs, moguls, or super-steeps with noodle gear, i'm not saying it's not possible, i'm just saying if this is the type of riding you are doing, your performance would improve with stiffer equipment.

going from a noodle boot/binding to a burton cartel and a burton ambush to a burton driver X and a union SL

each change coincided with a vast improvement in freeride performance


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## timmytard (Mar 19, 2009)

Rod said:


> After snowboarding on and off for 25 years I've got a different perspective now. Never did do big drops or airs but went from Sorel soft boots to Burton hard boots and now have a pair or Rulers. I just bought a Custom X (to provide variety from my Malolo) and I wonder if I need to go back to stiffer boots. But... I have developed a bad knee over the years. So I think I want my ankles to flex and give my knee a bit of a break. Some physio once told me that ankle injuries and lasting stiffness ultimately transfers stress to the knees and hips -- back etc.
> 
> Next weekend I test drive the Custom X so I'll see what I think then. I really did like the old hard boot setup (with Nitro Scorpion) and the snappy turns but don't see myself going back to a highly directional stick again - too much fun switching and goofing around on the hill.
> 
> Anyway, I think I agree in general with Snow wolfe that a medium flex suits me best.


Having snowboarded for a long time doesn't necessarily equate to intense riding. Probably the opposite.
There are exceptions, myself:cheeky4: being one of them:bowdown:

If you didn't do those things that required that type of gear before, ya no kidding your not going to need them now.:blink:

But if you were doing that sort of shit & now 25 years later you're still pushing yourself, going bigger & faster, then yes you would need that gear now.

Rulers used to be the stiffest Burton boot back in the day, today I don't think they are even a 5 out of 10 on the stiffness scale.:dunno:

They may be stiff enough for a little while, but they turn into slippers

If you ride like a Grammy, then Gammy's slippers will work just fine. 


TT


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## timmytard (Mar 19, 2009)

TT and others prefer stiff gear and that is totally fine; different strokes for different strokes. With the correct technique said:


> Wrong.
> 
> You make it sound like you don't need that type of gear because you have the correct technique.
> Where as I must not be doing something right, so I require this type of gear.
> ...


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## wildshoetwt (Feb 14, 2013)

timmytard said:


> Wrong.
> 
> You make it sound like you don't need that type of gear because you have the correct technique.
> Where as I must not be doing something right, so I require this type of gear.
> ...


while i don't agree with the sentiment of this post, i do partially agree with the fact that aggressive freeriding demands med-stiff to stiff equipment, especially boots...


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## keel_bright (Jan 13, 2013)

Hey! So umm .. let's drop the hate, I only wanted to ask for advice and didn't mean for this to start =) I realize now that there are cons to stiffness and it may not be preferable in all circumstances.

First day riding with my stiff DC Ceptors! Conditions were super icy. I could definitely feel the difference in response. Hard to explain but .. compared to my old noodle boots it felt like I was riding my board rather than my board taking care of me. Good in alot of respects I guess ... but my board didn't feel as powerful as it used to. Could be other things I guess, have to keep trying!


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## wildshoetwt (Feb 14, 2013)

keel_bright said:


> Hey! So umm .. let's drop the hate, I only wanted to ask for advice and didn't mean for this to start =) I realize now that there are cons to stiffness and it may not be preferable in all circumstances.
> 
> First day riding with my stiff DC Ceptors! Conditions were super icy. I could definitely feel the difference in response. Hard to explain but .. it felt like I was riding my board rather than my board taking care of me. Good in alot of respects I guess ... but my board didn't feel as powerful as it used to. Could be other things I guess, have to keep trying!


yup. I never felt like I had control over my board until I moved to stiff gear. 

what do you mean by powerful?


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## keel_bright (Jan 13, 2013)

wildshoetwt said:


> yup. I never felt like I had control over my board until I moved to stiff gear.
> 
> what do you mean by powerful?


Hard to explain ... a little more squirrelly? But I guess that's a part of the 'twitchy and unforgiving' deal. Could be the conditions, I haven't ridden pure chunky ice in a while.


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## behi (Feb 27, 2013)

I'll describe my experience.

Moving to a stiff board brought a big jump upwards in my riding ability. It did force me to make make much more precise movements and the timing has to be spot on. On a mid-stiff board, I could get away with dirty stuff/fudging things - not so on the stiff board. Edge transitions need to be very clean, otherwise the board is quite 'hooky'.

I also get a huge improvement in edge hold, hard pack that rode like ice before now feels like soft well-prepared piste in terms of traction.

The board also needs to be angled less and has similar traction on hard pack/scraped loose stuff (with my mid-stiff camber board, there is a huge difference), making for a really predictable ride and allowing me to ride much more aggressively.

The funny thing is, I have to ride my mid flex board with a stiff binding to get edge hold; I ride my stiff board with a mid flex binding.


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## keel_bright (Jan 13, 2013)

Snowolf said:


> It is a property of the extra response from stiff gear. Things can get really interesting if you have stiff boots and stiff bindings mounted on a soft board. The over steering from that configuration can be startling....LOL
> 
> Now, keep in mind also that it is not just board stiffness that is important here with regard to the stability and edge hold you are experiencing. Dampness is an equally important factor here. Dampness is what reduces chatter and edge blow out far more than the board's overall stiffness. Boots and bindings also have varying degrees of dampness as well.
> 
> ...


Definitely! I had suspected it may be due to the response of the boots. Again, I was riding in pure ice with lots of chunky bits and the bumps in the snow were just brutal, like tarmac speed bumps, so that could have been affecting my experience more than anything. My ride machete is supposed to be pretty damp, but I wasn't feeling it yesterday haha. Another thing I noticed was I had a bit more confidence in my straight airs (really the only thing I can do in the air ). Just sat low, pop, stomp, speedcheck, done. Or I'm just getting better 

Can't wait to ride again!

Cheers!


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## j1nftw1n (Jan 13, 2013)

I had to ditch my 2007 Burton Dominant after the board washed out from underneath me on a high speed toe edge turn resulting in me falling backwards slamming my lumbar spine into hard pack and most likely a cracked rib in the process.

Now I ride a 2013 Gnu Billy Goat 162 thats rated 7.5/10 on GNU's flex meter and omg did that make a world of difference. This is my first time riding a reverse camber deck and man I dont think I'll ever ride a traditional camber board. Edge to edge response is so quick, great edge hold in any condition especially ice, turn initiation on a dime, catch free floaty ride that is not punishing, stable at high speeds. I did also upgrade to a stiff boot the 32 Prime (stiffest boot they offer) they have and this also made a world of difference for me. Board feel, excellent heel hold, extra leverage of weight in turns. Binding wise I'm still using my 2007 cartels which is a med flex binding, they've treated me good so far and I like the response I get from them. 

So to answer the OP's question, Yes for me it was worth it to upgrade to stiffer gear. The new stiffer equipment inspires confidence allowing me to advance my riding to the next level, whereas the softer setup limited my ability to ride and have fun.


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