# Malavitas or Union Forces?



## crazed (Oct 10, 2011)

Some I've decided to get an Ultrafear for this season. I was wondering which bindings you guys would recommend to pair with this board? I have Cartels on my Horrorscope. I have tried Union Contact Pros, but I want to try some new bindings.


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## bseracka (Nov 14, 2011)

My vote is the vitas. I'm biased though, as I can't see the justification for the price and hassels of Union products.


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## djjimmyhat (Oct 22, 2012)

Malavitas all the way!


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## snowklinger (Aug 30, 2011)

'vitas


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## Nose Dradamous (Jul 19, 2010)

Malavitas are $60 more than Forces. For that extra $60 you get no heel loop adjustment and a wing. Yea, great choice. Forces all the way. But then again, I'm biased.


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## snowklinger (Aug 30, 2011)

Nose Dradamous said:


> Malavitas are $60 more than Forces. For that extra $60 you get no heel loop adjustment and a wing. Yea, great choice. Forces all the way. But then again, I'm biased.


The wing is only on the restricted. Don't forget you also get canting, a toe strap that works, ratchets that aren't made of rice crispies, reflex tech, and they are pretty damn light.


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## djjimmyhat (Oct 22, 2012)

snowklinger said:


> The wing is only on the restricted. Don't forget you also get canting, a toe strap that works, ratchets that aren't made of rice crispies, reflex tech, and they are pretty damn light.


Asym strap and highback as well right? Do the Forces have that?


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## CheoSamad (Nov 18, 2011)

Vitas from someone that has owned bindings from both Burton and Union.


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## Nivek (Jan 24, 2008)

This is my biggest problem with Forces. You stand right on those rails in the heel section and they go all the way to the board. All of your dampening has to come from your boots alone.


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## nip175 (Nov 4, 2012)

hmm this is a tough one. i have cartels and c02's. i dont know if i would get another burton binding. their quality isn't the greatest. specially for the amount you pay. before the season starts im gonna have to lock tight every single screw on my binding. burton bindings have very nice straps tho i love the straps they are very comfortable. toe strap how ever meeehh. but the vita may outperform the contact this time


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## Supra (Jan 11, 2012)

what model year do you have? I'll be surprised if you say 2011 or newer. The gettagrip toe straps are the best in the snowboarding by far.


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## Nivek (Jan 24, 2008)

Supra said:


> what model year do you have? I'll be surprised if you say 2011 or newer. The gettagrip toe straps are the best in the snowboarding by far.


I've had those pop up on my toes a couple times on my Hylites. Not THE best. I've had amazing success with Flux and Rome for toe straps.


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## Supra (Jan 11, 2012)

you put burton toe straps on your Hylites?


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## Nivek (Jan 24, 2008)

Hylite is a Flow boot...


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## Supra (Jan 11, 2012)

lol. you caught me out. I assumed it was a K2 or Ride binding and was hoping I could answer without looking it up.


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## Skier's Edge (Aug 4, 2012)

Flux DS30 or Burton Malavitas


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## Triple8Sol (Nov 24, 2008)

I'm not a Burton guy and I'll still tell you to get the Malavitas. I've checked them out and they seem to be great bindings whereas I owned Forces and know they're not nearly as good.


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## sleev-les (Feb 26, 2010)

Vita's..... I rode my Forces for one day and got rid of them.. Toe strap alone drove me nuts. I had Cartels at one point and wanted to go with Vita's this time so I'm trying something different. I am def a fan of Burton bindings.


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## camosunsnowboar (Oct 11, 2010)

sleev-les said:


> Vita's..... I rode my Forces for one day and got rid of them.. Toe strap alone drove me nuts. I had Cartels at one point and wanted to go with Vita's this time so I'm trying something different. I am def a fan of Burton bindings.


What boots were you running with your forces? I've never had a problem with the Union toes, even the old ones. I was wearing 32 right up until the Nike program started, and while both are a little bulky, with proper adjustments the toes fit just fine. It also depends on what your looking for, the Force is on the more responsive end of the union line, if that's what you're into great, if not nbd.

I've currently got the Vitas (restric) and the Atlas' and I'm honestly leaning towards using my Atlas' for the majority of the season. They keep it simple, and they work. I've never understood why people dork out on binding tech.


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## sleev-les (Feb 26, 2010)

camosunsnowboar said:


> What boots were you running with your forces? I've never had a problem with the Union toes, even the old ones. I was wearing 32 right up until the Nike program started, and while both are a little bulky, with proper adjustments the toes fit just fine. It also depends on what your looking for, the Force is on the more responsive end of the union line, if that's what you're into great, if not nbd.
> 
> I've currently got the Vitas (restric) and the Atlas' and I'm honestly leaning towards using my Atlas' for the majority of the season. They keep it simple, and they work. I've never understood why people dork out on binding tech.


At the time, I was using Salomon F22's.. I'm not the only one that had issues with the toe strap though... Common problem.


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## camosunsnowboar (Oct 11, 2010)

yeah, I've heard that from a number of people. I never had any issues, and they did take a little getting used too, but thats just my .02

I'm still feeling out the new toes they put out. I'm starting to get the impression that any fit issues have been rectified, but again different boots, etc etc.


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## sleev-les (Feb 26, 2010)

I definitely didn't want to deal with the release bs that the Forces were causing. A story: I was walking through the mall one day and walked past Zumiez and noticed they sold snowboard gear (don't shoot me, I was shaking my head in disbelief) so I went in to see what they had. They sold Forces and the dipshit kid that they have there to promote their seasonal only gear was talking about how badass the Forces were. I told him I didn't like them and the toe strap was a bitch to deal with. He argued so I locked the strap down and when I went to release it, it didn't want to come off. He shut up at that point. I can't expect the people in that store to know anything because, hey, its Zumiez, but I was in for the trollz. 

I am definitely itching to try the Vita's.. I had Cartels at one point, but sold them with the Burton board they were on since they were EST. I def liked the Cartels, just figured I'd go with something different this time and got good reviews of the Vita's.


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## phony_stark (Jul 2, 2011)

Dude, sorry you hated the forces. Just to play devils advocate, unless you fall a lot and have to strap back in multiple times on one run. Having to use a very little bit of mustard to get off the toe strap isn't a big deal.

I think, despite it being admittedly harder (but not hard at all) to undo the toestrap, in my experience, Union has the best one in the game. It doesn't slip for shit. I would much rather my toe strap be hard to take off than easy to unbuckle. It would give me peace of mind that my toes were gonna stay strapped on the whole run. With gloves on, they're pretty easy to pop off and "break in" around day 15.

Vitas are a good choice, very comfy and you don't have to use any muscles to undo the toestrap.


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## sleev-les (Feb 26, 2010)

phony_stark said:


> Dude, sorry you hated the forces. Just to play devils advocate, unless you fall a lot and have to strap back in multiple times on one run. Having to use a very little bit of mustard to get off the toe strap isn't a big deal.
> 
> I think, despite it being admittedly harder (but not hard at all) to undo the toestrap, in my experience, Union has the best one in the game. It doesn't slip for shit. I would much rather my toe strap be hard to take off than easy to unbuckle. It would give me peace of mind that my toes were gonna stay strapped on the whole run. With gloves on, they're pretty easy to pop off and "break in" around day 15.
> 
> Vitas are a good choice, very comfy and you don't have to use any muscles to undo the toestrap.


When I look at the other bindings I've rode (Burton Cartel, Rome 390, GNU junk, hell even Drakes when I first started boarding) I've never had a toe strap come loose on me. Now I will play fair and note that the comfort and ride was better on the Cartels and 390's while great usability. I wasn't impressed with the Drakes ride after I had them a few seasons and started to get better at boarding. The 390's, the lean angle adjustment breaks loose easily on a fall, but overall is a better binding than the Forces. There is no way I'd continue to deal with Forces (and failure to correct a simple engineering issue) and have to fight to get the toestrap ratchet loose every time . It doesn't have to be multiple times, it just has to be when I get to the bottom and want my back foot out of the binding for what its worth. They definitely aren't the best in the game bro, but seems a lot of people are hypnotised by them for some reason. If you like them, I'm glad you do and that they are working for you, but there are def plenty of better options out there.


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## Leo (Nov 24, 2009)

I love the Vitas. I have a preference for the restricted version though. The wing gives a bit of extra lateral support. Admittedly, I barely notice any difference when doing presses. It's the comfort level for me. I find the winged highback to be more comfy. The highback is a tad stiffer than the wingless version.


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## sleev-les (Feb 26, 2010)

Leo said:


> I love the Vitas. I have a preference for the restricted version though. The wing gives a bit of extra lateral support. Admittedly, I barely notice any difference when doing presses. It's the comfort level for me. I find the winged highback to be more comfy. The highback is a tad stiffer than the wingless version.


I got the restricted version.. Ready to get out and try them..


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## KungMartin (Oct 31, 2012)

sleev-les said:


> I definitely didn't want to deal with the release bs that the Forces were causing. A story: I was walking through the mall one day and walked past Zumiez and noticed they sold snowboard gear (don't shoot me, I was shaking my head in disbelief) so I went in to see what they had. They sold Forces and the dipshit kid that they have there to promote their seasonal only gear was talking about how badass the Forces were. I told him I didn't like them and the toe strap was a bitch to deal with. He argued so I locked the strap down and when I went to release it, it didn't want to come off. He shut up at that point. I can't expect the people in that store to know anything because, hey, its Zumiez, but I was in for the trollz.
> 
> I am definitely itching to try the Vita's.. I had Cartels at one point, but sold them with the Burton board they were on since they were EST. I def liked the Cartels, just figured I'd go with something different this time and got good reviews of the Vita's.


this guy obviously doesn't know about Force adjustment. Learn how to handle the binding you're talking about before talking about it.






No problem releasing the toe strap IF YOU KNOW HOW TO SET THEM UP... lawl.

Also, all this talk of "that binding sucks, this binding is much better" is also nonsense. what goes in to a binding doesn't make your ride better, whereas setting them up properly, does. Amen.


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## Leo (Nov 24, 2009)

KungMartin said:


> this guy obviously doesn't know about Force adjustment. Learn how to handle the binding you're talking about before talking about it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Why so defensive?

Dave Z and I both had toe strap issues, sticky toe ratchet being one of them, with the forces and contact pros. We were set up and dialed in by the tent employees. Are you suggesting that they didn't know what they were doing or that they were doing a half-assed job?

In all fairness, these were pre-production models. But in all fairness again, our experience seems to mirror that of other users of production models. 

I don't really want any part of this EL vs Sbf battle, but if you're going to come here just to be a dick, I'll be the balls.


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## KungMartin (Oct 31, 2012)

Leo said:


> but if you're going to come here just to be a dick, I'll be the balls.


You have balls. I like balls.



Leo said:


> We were set up and dialed in by the tent employees. Are you suggesting that they didn't know what they were doing or that they were doing a half-assed job?


Well clearly. Considering the guy in my video apparently DOES know what he's doing. Who says tent employees guarantees no screw up?


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## Leo (Nov 24, 2009)

KungMartin said:


> You have balls. I like balls.
> 
> 
> 
> Well clearly. Considering the guy in my video apparently DOES know what he's doing. Who says tent employees guarantees no screw up?


Not me. It's you that said it. 

I just think it's odd that you're suggesting the problem is due to a set up error. So by your logic, everyone with this same exact toe strap/ratchet problem is making the same exact set up errors. That's statistically very unlikely.

What about even hardcore Union supporters slapping Ride's toe straps on them? Are they setting it up wrong as well?

I've told Johan this and I'll say the same to you. I don't have a problem with Union. I have a problem with condescending fanboys like you.

Phony is doing it right. Even if he does hate this place overall haha.


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## KungMartin (Oct 31, 2012)

i guess my force bindings are one of a kind then (or maybe everyone who's complaining have faulty ones, or are just flat out noobs).

peace out homie!


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## Leo (Nov 24, 2009)

Your attitude does more damage than good especially around here given the whole contest thing from EL.


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## Leo (Nov 24, 2009)

KungMartin said:


> i guess my force bindings are one of a kind then (or maybe everyone who's complaining have faulty ones, or are just flat out noobs).
> 
> peace out homie!


It's called subjectivity sprinkled with obvious bias homie.


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## KungMartin (Oct 31, 2012)

how can a force toe strap releasing with the twitch of my pinky be related to subjectivity? it's fact, alleged atm, but i'll gladly post a video where i do just that. then it'll be a fact.

ironically enough you seem to be the biased one here.


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## Leo (Nov 24, 2009)

KungMartin said:


> how can a force toe strap releasing with the twitch of my pinky be related to subjectivity? it's fact, alleged atm, but i'll gladly post a video where i do just that. then it'll be a fact.
> 
> ironically enough you seem to be the biased one here.


How can I be? I was demoing union or the first time back last year. Where does my bias come from?

And that's great yours works fine. Maybe you should have stuck with that explanation instead of the douchebag comment you made.

Maybe they get better after breaking in. I don't know, I only demoed them. I'd be hard pressed to believe they are anywhere as smooth as Burton ratchets though.

Edit: I haven't talked about Union since Johan let this stupid beef carry over to my work email. Even after his friends at test fest made smart ass remarks towards me.


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## sleev-les (Feb 26, 2010)

KungMartin said:


> this guy obviously doesn't know about Force adjustment. Learn how to handle the binding you're talking about before talking about it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It knows how to youtubez. Bro, you're an idiot! I'm giving opinion based on the facts that I, among MANY others have with their mediocre bindings. I know you are in here to try and win that contest most likely, but that still doesn't mean you know a damn thing because you know how to use youtube to try and fight for your fanboy attitude. 



Leo said:


> Your attitude does more damage than good especially around here given the whole contest thing from EL.


I'm with you bro.. This kid is clueless and in here to just pick a fight. His nonsense doesn't help anyone.


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## KungMartin (Oct 31, 2012)

wow he's so mad. i don't even feel the need to counter.


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## Leo (Nov 24, 2009)

KungMartin said:


> wow he's so mad. i don't even feel the need to counter.


Well, I mean what did you honestly expect? 

Let's be adults here... You and I both know your we're being a dick about your post. So you and I both were expecting someone here to get annoyed by that.

In other words, good trolling.


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## sleev-les (Feb 26, 2010)

KungMartin said:


> wow he's so mad. i don't even feel the need to counter.


I'm far from mad. Millions of internet hardasses troll every day. I feel sorry for you. You are a cure to my boredom right now while still being able to make a valid point as your argument holds no weight. :cheeky4:


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## bseracka (Nov 14, 2011)

Hey KungMartin, don't you think you should actually learn how to select an appropriate width board and set up your own bindings before you go spouting off "knowledge" about how others are doing it. Martin's thread


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## ShredLife (Feb 6, 2010)

bseracka said:


> Hey KungMartin, don't you think you should actually learn how to select an appropriate width board and set up your own bindings before you go spouting off "knowledge" about how others are doing it. Martin's thread


lmfao :thumbsup::thumbsup:


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## matty19 (Nov 19, 2010)

Sometimes I'm embarrassed to be a snowboarder. Too much fanboy bullshit in this thread, and not enough actual info for the OP. Sad.


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## jdang307 (Feb 6, 2011)

Leo said:


> How can I be? I was demoing union or the first time back last year. Where does my bias come from?
> 
> And that's great yours works fine. Maybe you should have stuck with that explanation instead of the douchebag comment you made.
> 
> ...


What is it with Union that makes them so thin skinned?

Stand by your product. If it were that good, more people will use them. Simple. Who on SBF slept with their wives? Kick their dogs?


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## ShredLife (Feb 6, 2010)

matty19 said:


> Sometimes I'm embarrassed to be a snowboarder. Too much fanboy bullshit in this thread, and not enough actual info for the OP. Sad.


how do you figure that?

this site sees rider after rider after rider complain about 'your brand' and its limitations. there is actually a responsibility to inform people about flaws in products that exist, and persist. if you deny that a product has an issue to the point of some ridiculous dogma or brand loyalty then you are really doing a mis-service to those asking for real advice. 

the complaints about union bindings are 100% legitimate. burying your head in the sand and throwing around insults or trying to assert your 'iamthemostknowledgeablesnowboarderandanyonewhothinksdifferentiswrongandangry' attitude isn't going to help your 'cause'


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## ShredLife (Feb 6, 2010)

jdang307 said:


> What is it with Union that makes them so think skinned?
> 
> Stand by your product. If it were that good, more people will use them. Simple. Who on SBF slept with their wives? Kick their dogs?


it is the culture of the company. they feed into it:

EasyLoungin


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## KungMartin (Oct 31, 2012)

bseracka said:


> Hey KungMartin, don't you think you should actually learn how to select an appropriate width board and set up your own bindings before you go spouting off "knowledge" about how others are doing it. Martin's thread


the thing is that i have knowledge about setting up the actual binding. i never mentioned anything about placement and toe/heel drag did i?

union force rocks, that is all.

also, fuck you.


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## phony_stark (Jul 2, 2011)

This site sees maaaaaaaybe 6 riders complain about Unions, and of these six most haven't ridden a Union over 3 years or did for one day for a few hours, and while their experiences are VALUABLE for feedback (I don't want to be misunderstood, it is valuable feedback), it's not as valuable as an experience from someone who's ridden the product, as shipped, for 50 days.

In short, I would put more weight on the opinion of someone who uses a product regularly, over someone who tried and didn't like it. Especially one who writes a couple of sentences and just says "sucks" . That's not even constructive.


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## KungMartin (Oct 31, 2012)

phony_stark said:


> This site sees maaaaaaaybe 6 riders complain about Unions, and of these six most haven't ridden a Union over 3 years or did for one day for a few hours, and while their experiences are VALUABLE for feedback (I don't want to be misunderstood, it is valuable feedback), it's not as valuable as an experience from someone who's ridden the product, as shipped, for 50 days.
> 
> In short, I would put more weight on the opinion of someone who uses a product regularly, over someone who tried and didn't like it. Especially one who writes a couple of sentences and just says "sucks" . That's not even constructive.


Word. They totally ask for trouble. Fucking ignorant douches.


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## ShredLife (Feb 6, 2010)

phony_stark said:


> Wired will come up with a lot of great suggestions. I'd also like to throw in the GNU carbon credit. I put in around 25 days last season (my first season as well) and the board handled everything I threw at it, pow/slush/and ESPECIALLY ice. I enjoyed it a lot.


if you have only been riding for two seasons what makes you think you have enough experience to give people advice on snowboarding?


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## matty19 (Nov 19, 2010)

ShredLife said:


> how do you figure that?
> 
> this site sees rider after rider after rider complain about 'your brand' and its limitations. there is actually a responsibility to inform people about flaws in products that exist, and persist. if you deny that a product has an issue to the point of some ridiculous dogma or brand loyalty then you are really doing a mis-service to those asking for real advice.
> 
> the complaints about union bindings are 100% legitimate. burying your head in the sand and throwing around insults or trying to assert your 'iamthemostknowledgeablesnowboarderandanyonewhothinksdifferentiswrongandangry' attitude isn't going to help your 'cause'


I agree with the last part of your statement. From what I've been reading, there's a lot of that in this thread.

Please don't mistake any of my comments as advocating for a specific company. While I have a positive opinion of Union bindings and Capita boards, I also love and use Burton bindings and boards, Mervyn (Lib/Gnu) boards, Venture, NeverSummer, etc. I'm really intrigued by a couple of K2's boards, and one of my local shops will be doing K2's "K2sdays" $1 weekday demos this season, so I'll be taking them out. I'm really excited by that and expect to enjoy them.

You and a few other people here appear to be very emotionally invested in convincing others that Union bindings "suck". I find that to be just as invalid as the fanboys who think that Union bindings are beyond criticism. Both sides are contributing to a load of bullshit that gets in the way of providing the information that can actually enable a person less familiar with the products available to choose a new binder.

Unions work for some people, and not for others.

The same with Burton binders.

The same with K2 binders.

The same with Raiden, Flux, Technine, Flow, Salomon, and Ride binders.

Gear preference is just that: preference. It doesn't define your riding. 90% rider. 10% board (and other gear).


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## qwezxc12 (Oct 24, 2010)

phony_stark said:


> Dude, sorry you hated the forces. Just to play devils advocate, unless you fall a lot and have to strap back in multiple times on one run. Having to use a very little bit of mustard to get off the toe strap isn't a big deal.
> 
> I think, despite it being admittedly harder (but not hard at all) to undo the toestrap, in my experience, Union has the best one in the game. It doesn't slip for shit. I would much rather my toe strap be hard to take off than easy to unbuckle. It would give me peace of mind that my toes were gonna stay strapped on the whole run. With gloves on, they're pretty easy to pop off and "break in" around day 15.
> 
> Vitas are a good choice, very comfy and you don't have to use any muscles to undo the toestrap.


Definitely NOT wanting to get into the EL/SBF shit... Just wanted to post on my own *personal* experience and point out that while they may be easy to unbuckle, I have never had a Burton binding strap / ratchet come undone while riding. I try to ride lots of mfg stuff, too - I demo boards whenever I can, and when I travel I get to rent higher-end gear sometimes. 

I've had '09 Missions, '10 Cartels, '11 Cartels, and now (un-ridden) '14 Cartels. I've also demo'd last season's Diodes. I've taken serious diggers, banged into trees, and gone endo enough to lose my goggles and stuff my helmet and jacket full of snow. I ride everywhere from NY, NH and VT, to CO, WA and B.C.


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## sleev-les (Feb 26, 2010)

ShredLife said:


> lmfao :thumbsup::thumbsup:


lol x2



KungMartin said:


> the thing is that i have knowledge about setting up the actual binding. i never mentioned anything about placement and toe/heel drag did i?
> 
> union force rocks, that is all.
> 
> also, fuck you.


Last I checked, getting the placement centered and correct width is part of setting up your bindings as it has to be set to the board. You fail again! 



phony_stark said:


> This site sees maaaaaaaybe 6 riders complain about Unions, and of these six most haven't ridden a Union over 3 years or did for one day for a few hours, and while their experiences are VALUABLE for feedback (I don't want to be misunderstood, it is valuable feedback), it's not as valuable as an experience from someone who's ridden the product, as shipped, for 50 days.
> 
> In short, I would put more weight on the opinion of someone who uses a product regularly, over someone who tried and didn't like it. Especially one who writes a couple of sentences and just says "sucks" . That's not even constructive.


Bro, I've had enough instances of Union being weak.

1. The set I rode. Yeah, used them once (8 hours), but that was enough to realize I wasn't about to deal with the issues. (last year 2012)
2. Walked into bs Zumiez out of curiousity and had to hear the sales guy preach about Union quality and no toe strap issues. Pulled one off the shelf and it locked up (last month)
3. Complaints from multiple people on the forum and other online reviews

Again, I'm not knocking you because you should ride what you like and works for you.


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## phony_stark (Jul 2, 2011)

sleev-les said:


> When I look at the other bindings I've rode (Burton Cartel, Rome 390, GNU junk, hell even Drakes when I first started boarding) I've never had a toe strap come loose on me. Now I will play fair and note that the comfort and ride was better on the Cartels and 390's while great usability. I wasn't impressed with the Drakes ride after I had them a few seasons and started to get better at boarding. The 390's, the lean angle adjustment breaks loose easily on a fall, but overall is a better binding than the Forces. There is no way I'd continue to deal with Forces (and failure to correct a simple engineering issue) and have to fight to get the toestrap ratchet loose every time . It doesn't have to be multiple times, it just has to be when I get to the bottom and want my back foot out of the binding for what its worth. They definitely aren't the best in the game bro, but seems a lot of people are hypnotised by them for some reason. If you like them, I'm glad you do and that they are working for you, but there are def plenty of better options out there.


This is a fair assessment. From what I hear though, you're having a problem with the ratchet, not the strap itself. I will be the first to admit every other binding I've used has an easier toe buckle than the Union toe buckle, but I feel like, from my personal experience, that, if my toe remains strapped into the boot, having to use a little (emphasis on little) extra mustard to get the toe buckle off at the end of a run, is a small price to pay if everything else with my binding experience is amazing. Also they break in around day 6.

If you want an easy buckle on your toe and that's the most important thing to your binding experience, burton has a great one.


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## sleev-les (Feb 26, 2010)

phony_stark said:


> This is a fair assessment. From what I hear though, you're having a problem with the ratchet, not the strap itself. I will be the first to admit every other binding I've used has an easier toe buckle than the Union toe buckle, but I feel like, from my personal experience, that, if my toe remains strapped into the boot, having to use a little (emphasis on little) extra mustard to get the toe buckle off at the end of a run, is a small price to pay if everything else with my binding experience is amazing. Also they break in around day 6.
> 
> If you want an easy buckle on your toe and that's the most important thing to your binding experience, burton has a great one.


I'm am definitely more into the Burton bindings. And yes, I had ratchet issues. Thats why I only would comment on the ratchet itself and not the toe strap placement or lack thereof


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## KungMartin (Oct 31, 2012)

sleev-les said:


> Last I checked, getting the placement centered and correct width is part of setting up your bindings as it has to be set to the board. You fail again!


yeah, but you're not getting it. placement has nothing to do with strap adjustment does it?

get it through your thick skull.


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## bseracka (Nov 14, 2011)

KungMartin said:


> the thing is that i have knowledge about setting up the actual binding. i never mentioned anything about placement and toe/heel drag did i?
> 
> union force rocks, that is all.
> 
> also, fuck you.


You can claim what ever you want but buying and mounting (incorrectly) Union bindings does not give much credibility in regard to product knowledge. Put a few days, or even a season on those new Force bindings and then tell us about them. You maybe correct and they'll be the greatest binding you'll ever ride, but ride them first, then make that claim.

PS. sorry you think say fuck you to me after I helped you setup your bindings is a good decision. It's actions like this that cause noobs to get ignored, or bad advice. Next time stay on EL and ask them how to setup your bindings and if your board is to wide.


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## KungMartin (Oct 31, 2012)

you're kinda thick. i don't need overall product knowledge to state the fact that my toe strap can be easily released. i just need a hand and a set of eyes.

please go away.



> PS. sorry you think say fuck you to me after I helped you setup your bindings is a good decision. It's actions like this that cause noobs to get ignored, or bad advice. Next time stay on EL and ask them how to setup your bindings and if your board is to wide.


you think i'm going to lick your feet because you KINDA helped me? just don't butt in next time.


----------



## matty19 (Nov 19, 2010)

ShredLife said:


> if you have only been riding for two seasons what makes you think you have enough experience to give people advice on snowboarding?


How is two seasons of riding not enough time to form a valid opinion?

What super-OG-core-bro-"I'll be on misty 2014 shit by this Christmas" cred do you have? Does it make your opinion more accurate or your riding level and preferences more in line with a person's who's asking advice?

I live in the PNW. I'm well over six feet tall, and have a big foot. I ride a fair amount of powder, some backcountry/sidecountry steeps and technical stuff, like to charge, and at the ski area I fuck around on the small and medium jump lines in the park and am always on the lookout for side hits. I feel that I might have an insight into related categories of gear, but would be less able to inform somebody about jib boards or hardboot-style race boards. Even the opinions on gear that I know well are still just subjective impressions and anecdotes. I try to qualify that. If you don't, then you're just being a domineering, self-important asshat.


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## KungMartin (Oct 31, 2012)

matty19 said:


> How is two seasons of riding not enough time to form a valid opinion?
> 
> What super-OG-core-bro-"I'll be on misty 2014 shit by this Christmas" cred do you have? .


my exact thoughts.


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## phony_stark (Jul 2, 2011)

Crazed...

I say put the cartels on your ultra, and maybe take a look at the Union Atlas. The atlas is a bit softer and has more lateral flex than the Force and will be able to work on your softer horror, and, if you love them, will be equally at home on your ultrafear. 

You can then use your cartels (If you're building a quiver) on a stiffer board. If you weren't into your contact pros though, because of the toe buckle, go Malavitas, that's a good one two punch if you're planning on staying burton.


Sorry you're having to wade through all of this silliness, especially shredlife, who, I honestly have no idea what he does on these forums except follow people around who may like Unions and say "I DON'T LIKE THEM!! ARRRRGHHHH"

Kung Martin don't let these guys rile you up, but don't take their opinion lightly...some of these dudes have been riding Unions for HOURS, BRO!


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## ShredLife (Feb 6, 2010)

if you've been around snowboarding for 2 years you are an authority on nothing. your advice is not built on experience - its built on opinion and shit other people have told you/you read on teh webz


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## Leo (Nov 24, 2009)

Don't be hypocritical EL guys. 

Let me tell you that I did a brief review of the Forces that I demoed at the 2011 Test Fest. In that review, I specifically stated my negative tone had more to do with the countless Union fanboys that used to destroy threads in this very forum. Yes, I was annoyed by this forum's users. 

I gave my honest opinion about my experience and fully disclosed that they were pre-production at a demo event. So what happened after that? Johan came in and basically bashed me. He made real snooty remarks like I was hating on Union as a company. 

But you won't see his remarks because he deleted that account and made one under his EL name. 

Let me add that when I requested catalog info on union bindings via my work, which started carrying Unions, he made a comment asking if I'm "The Leo Shim who hates all things Union." This was on my work email. I post on here in my spare time. Yet, he chose to bring up his silly beef in our work email exchange. 

So don't come in these forums acting altruistic. You guys are being hypocritical especially considering how you talk about us in that EL thread. Don't talk about how you care about snowboarding and think this bickering and fanboyism is trash when some of you EL members trashed me for posting about products on EL a while back. Admittedly though, a lot more of you were cool with me than not.

My point is, this forum or that forum, same shit goes on. I intended to keep my mouth shut, but this is getting ridiculous. If Johan truly wanted to be constructive and not just hate on SBF, he would have tossed those Team bindings to a "misinformed" or "uneducated" member here to have them give Union a legitimate try.

So don't kid anyone. You guys aren't here to help. You're here to be condescending hypocrites.

And please, don't go snitching me out to my employer for this post or have any of your cronies talk shit to me at test fest as I walk by.


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## phony_stark (Jul 2, 2011)

If you've been riding the equipment in question two years longer than the other person who seems to have an opinion on it, based on hours of writing. The other person is an authority on nothing, and is the source of the opinion and shit other people have told you/read on teh webz.

Do you have a binding suggestion? I'm tired of asking you this question in every thread.

Edit: Leo, I respect your (and Dave's) opinion around here, and if you weren't feeling unions, you weren't feeling them. You also have explained why, clearly, and with disclosure. You are, unfortunately, an exception to the rule. It's not altruism, and I have said such in other threads. It's that, for some reason, a very vocal group around here, with no qualifications/limited experience with the product on the shelves being asked about, feel the need to say nonconstructive, and silly things whenever this product is asked about. 

When someone, who HAS ridden the product and knows more about it, disagrees, they chime in again, with the same lack of experience with the product in question but a bunch of INSANE ramblings about their snowboarding stripes. Which don't mean shit, if it isn't about what the poster is asking. All people are asking for here, is for those people to respectfully disagree and move on.


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## matty19 (Nov 19, 2010)

ShredLife said:


> if you've been around snowboarding for 2 years you are an authority on nothing. your advice is not built on experience - its built on opinion and shit other people have told you/you read on teh webz


I've been around snowboarding for almost 27 years. There are people who have been riding for two years who have MUCH more experience with certain gear than I do. I respect their experiences and opinions as valid. I don't, however, take ANYONE'S opinion as being authoritative. 

Generally, the more emotional comments (ie: X brand sucks!) that are associated with an opinion, the less I consider it when forming my own. 

I know too many people who rip on gear that would absolutely not work for me to ever think that there are universal truths about this shit. Any attempt by some blowhard to make themselves appear to be an authority on matters of subjective opinion just makes them look like an asshole. Blind advocacy or opposition is ridiculous. 90% rider, 10% board (and other gear). Ride what you like.


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## matty19 (Nov 19, 2010)

Leo said:


> Don't be hypocritical EL guys.
> 
> Let me tell you that I did a brief review of the Forces that I demoed at the 2011 Test Fest. In that review, I specifically stated my negative tone had more to do with the countless Union fanboys that used to destroy threads in this very forum. Yes, I was annoyed by this forum's users.
> 
> ...


I am not a fanboy. In the interest of full disclosure, this is what I posted on EL in regards to why I decided to be more active on SBF:

" I just don't like people being asshats to each other in a way that makes enjoying snowboarding more difficult. We all know how difficult it can be to find solid info and get a set-up that you trust, fits you well, and lets you concentrate on the IMPORTANT part of the 90/10 aspect of riding. Being told by an "expert" that the ONLY way to approach buying gear is to buy EXACTLY what they tell you to get - regardless of your budget or personal preferences. Fuck that!

The pretentious "experienced rider as gatekeeper to the sport" thing is just so much bullshit, too. I volunteer my time and money for organizations like the service board and the chill foundation trying to get kids into snowboarding and keep them stoked on a free, open, inclusive community of riders who just want to have fun and share the outdoors. The "core" douchers ruin all that, and fuck with kids who are already apprehensive about trying to be "cool" even though they can't buy all the raddest brands, and they're still working on linking their turns or making it smoothly to the far side of the butter box. I HATE that shit.

When an obviously young, inexperienced rider wants to know whether they should buy the t. rice or the custom flying v, it's not time to belittle their question or steer them towards your pet brand. It's an opportunity to help a kid find a board that they're gonna be stoked on and learn to do their first ollie on. That's the board that will begin to define what a pow turn is. They'll make regretful sticker choices, and they'll be crushed when it first starts to get dinged up in the lift lines. How do the Nivek and ShredLife tools not remember what that is like?"


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## phony_stark (Jul 2, 2011)

this.

Also, Shredlife? Do you have any binding suggestions for the Original Poster.

I said Atlases maybe Forces just to have something different. Unless the poster loves burton, then Malavitas.


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## ShredLife (Feb 6, 2010)

matty19 said:


> Blind advocacy or opposition is ridiculous.


nothing blind about it at all. listen really closely:

- there has been a known issue for years. many users have problems with the toecaps - we see it here all the time. 

- union knows there is an issue and does nothing about it. year after year.

- oh wait, they do do something about it - they get their internet fanboys to spam a forum that they don't like. pathetic - _there is your emotional response_. a company that works like this is just sad.


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## Nivek (Jan 24, 2008)

matty19 said:


> How is two seasons of riding not enough time to form a valid opinion?
> 
> *What super-OG-core-bro-"I'll be on misty 2014 shit by this Christmas"*


I said that you jack stack. And I get more days on mountain and step in/on more poduct before March than you ever will in your life. That's where the credibility comes from.

Two seasons or riding total in life? Or on a single product? Cause fuck no do I give any credibility to someone who's been snowboarding 2 years. They can't have ridden enough to form a valid opinion cause they've likely only ridden what their first purchase was. What kind of comparison can they make from that?

Ride what you like sure, and you'll notice I have yet to say a whole brand sucks by the way. The toe straps and ratchets are sub par, and the Force baseplate has no padding. Where have I said that the whole brand is garbage. In fact all this started with Johan bitching at me after I said I look forward to riding the Atlas except the toe strap. Nice job.


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## phony_stark (Jul 2, 2011)

Nivek said:


> Two seasons or riding total in life? Or on a single product? Cause fuck no do I give any credibility to someone who's been snowboarding 2 years. They can't have ridden enough to form a valid opinion cause they've likely only ridden what their first purchase was. What kind of comparison can they make from that?


Members of snowboarding forum. If you've only been riding for two years, your opinion is not valid to Nivek, the tiny Prince of snowboarding forum!

All HAIL TINY NIVEK!!!!


BUT DON'T BURTON HAIL HIM WITH AN ATLAS!! IT WILL TAKE HIM TWO HOURS TO FIGURE IT OUT AND HE WILL CRY AND QUIT!!!

(Royal Decree)


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## Alkasquawlik (Jul 13, 2010)

Nivek said:


> I said that you jack stack. And I get more days on mountain and step in/on more poduct before March than you ever will in your life. That's where the credibility comes from.



lol fucking kook.

Do you ride Arcteryx as well?


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## ShredLife (Feb 6, 2010)

Alkasquawlik said:


> lol fucking kook.
> 
> Do you ride Arcteryx as well?


i'm ready to hear exactly why wearing Arcteryx makes me a kook.


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## Alkasquawlik (Jul 13, 2010)

ShredLife said:


> i'm ready to hear exactly why wearing Arcteryx makes me a kook.


...because it's Arcteryx... Really?


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## Leo (Nov 24, 2009)

I don't mean to paint a broad stroke. Some guys here are obviously being destructive. So is Johan with this dumbass contest.

For eff sakes. I completely stopped talking about Union after our email exchange. I continued to just focus on other products not getting involved in Union based threads. I did this even after his cronies were being little dick headed smart asses behind my back while I was at a demo event for y employer.

Now he has this contest going and putting up the front that he wants you guys to educate SBF members. Instead, this whole thing is causing uneccesary beef and bad blood. Want to know what's worse than the people you claim to be gatekeepers here? Two Internet forums full of snowboarders beefing with one another over one fucking snowboard brand and acting like one forum is better than the other.

You want to talk about caring for the sport and riders? Then don't contribute to this ignorance. 

Whatever. No such thing as bad press I guess.


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## bseracka (Nov 14, 2011)

KungMartin said:


> you're kinda thick. i don't need overall product knowledge to state the fact that my toe strap can be easily released. i just need a hand and a set of eyes.
> 
> please go away.
> 
> ...


I'd really perfer you didn't and don't want anything from you even if you do. Personally I thought the wierd stuf was the Germans, not the Sweeds. My point is: you bought an incorrectly sized board for your foot size, you don't know how to mount bindings, you bought bindings that you like and you bought boots that are not naturally shaped to work with your bindings highback causing an ill fit. I don't understand what makes you have any knowledge to drop about snowboarding in general, or bindings you've never ridden.


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## matty19 (Nov 19, 2010)

Nivek said:


> I get more days on mountain ... before March than you ever will in your life.


Literally a mathematical impossibility. Not working in the industry, I may only be able to ride forty or fifty days a year, but I've been doing it for a few years.

All your claiming smells a bit fishy, but if it makes you feel good to try and convince a bunch of junior high and high school kids on the internet that you have special status, don't let me get in your way. 

Enjoy showing off your misty 2014 shit. The rest of us will enjoy sowboarding. 90%-10%. You might want to look into it... But that's just my opinion.


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## phony_stark (Jul 2, 2011)

Leo said:


> I don't mean to paint a broad stroke. Some guys here are obviously being destructive. So is Johan with this dumbass contest.
> 
> For eff sakes. I completely stopped talking about Union after our email exchange. I continued to just focus on other products not getting involved in Union based threads. I did this even after his cronies were being little dick headed smart asses behind my back while I was at a demo event for y employer.
> 
> ...


Leo, honestly, I have NOTHING but respect for you because you did what most people would do in that situation. Turn the fucking page. Not look at every page where it's mentioned and attempt to hijack the thread with opinions that are passed off as fact (to people who apparently aren't even allowed to have an opinion if they've been riding for fewer than two years).

All I'm asking is, people like you and Dave continue to set the example you're setting and help people who have questions about gear. I will do the same. Letting this vocal group shout down stuff with limited experience is silly and turns this place into clown shoes.

Or, in Nivek's case, barbie shoes.


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## ShredLife (Feb 6, 2010)

if you don't have the 90% yet your opinion on the 10% doesn't really matter. 

i'll get at least 80-100 days this year - the equivalent of your life's experience.



Arcteryx - sorry little buddy but you're just showing your ignorance here. if you're into your fashionista thing and like to buy new outerwear every season or two that's on you. i like shit that works and lasts. Arcteryx makes hands down the most effective outerwear in the game. better than any snowboarding company because all of them are marketing to little teeny-bopper hipster-wannabes who are sponsored by mommy. name one. say AK and i'll laugh in your face.


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## matty19 (Nov 19, 2010)

Leo said:


> I don't mean to paint a broad stroke. Some guys here are obviously being destructive. So is Johan with this dumbass contest.
> 
> For eff sakes. I completely stopped talking about Union after our email exchange. I continued to just focus on other products not getting involved in Union based threads. I did this even after his cronies were being little dick headed smart asses behind my back while I was at a demo event for y employer.
> 
> ...


I have no opinion about one forum being better in an objective sense. Subjectively, while I joined both forums around the same time, I admittedly post significantly more in EL. Still, I don't view this as an EL vs SBF thing. And, again for me, it's not about Union. It's about getting involved in trying to increase the expectation for accurate, insightful sharing of actual knowledge. I've made similar comments and criticisms on EL when people were asshats there, too. I remember one thread where somebody tried to claim that underwear (not baselayer, but fucking boxers) made by a snowboard company (Burton) were the only underwear that a snowboarder should wear while snowboarding. Wearing wicking underwear made by other brands like Under Armor or Nike was somehow a less valid choice. Moronic. It happens in both forums.


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## sleev-les (Feb 26, 2010)

KungMartin said:


> yeah, but you're not getting it. placement has nothing to do with strap adjustment does it?
> 
> get it through your thick skull.


And strap adjustment is not understanding how to completely set up a binding as you stated in your other post! Why u so mad though? You come on here looking to debate and get all butthurt when you get it thrown back at you. Go ride your uber awesome Unions and be happy. I don't care what you ride as I stated I would not deal with their bs engineering problems after one day out. I've stated other bindings that I've ridden, some of which were a lot better than Unions sub par quality. Whether I rode them for a day (or HOURS as I stated fairly, only to get another sarcastic remark) or not, that is lacking and as a manufacturer, it should be corrected and not ignored for so long. I guess all the fanboys that don't care are what is keeping them from changing their design?? 

BOTTOM LINE: Ride what the fuck you want, but dont get all pissy when you are told facts!



Nivek said:


> I said that you jack stack.


lol Just spit my drink all over my monitor


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## Leo (Nov 24, 2009)

I just don't get why Johan's panties are this bunched up. Doesn't he realize that he is losing customers here. Love or hate this forum, but just like at EL, people buy gear based on what they read here. 

I can't imagine how awesome Johan could have made Union look had he chose to give those Team bindings to someone here... not a reviewer, but someone looking to decide between a Union or say a Malavita. 

That would have been respect right there. Instead, potential Union customers are now seeing people from two different forums arguing with each other because of a contest Johan, a Union employee, decided to run.

Matty, you're trying to be reasonable right? Am I way off base here with what I said?

You want to see awesome marketing and use of forums like these? Pay attention to Never Summer, Rome, and even Wired Sports. Look at the loyalty they receive and just how many of their products are being bought based off how they treat members here.

That could have easily been Union with Johan. Maybe he's just too core to do the same. But then again, isn't that why he hates SBF members? Because we think we're too core?


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## ShredLife (Feb 6, 2010)

well at this point its obvious that Union would rather spend its time attacking and antagonizing fellow snowboarders rather than addressing the years of concerns, complaints, and suggestions from the riding community.

really really sad.


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## matty19 (Nov 19, 2010)

ShredLife said:


> if you don't have the 90% yet your opinion on the 10% doesn't really matter.
> 
> i'll get at least 80-100 days this year - the equivalent of your life's experience.
> 
> ...


Is any of this aimed at me?

I'm not the one who started riding two years ago. I started riding almost 27 years ago. There were some breaks in there, and I may not have a lifestyle that allows me to ride more than a couple of days a week, but I get my days in. I'm not going pro or anything, but I'm happy with my 90%.

Arcteryx doesn't make "hands down" anything (except maybe one of the most expensive options on the market). They make seam-welded gore-tex outerwear. So do a bunch of other companies. Same fabrics. Same laminates. For my money, the jackets have a fit that's too short in the body, and the pants have cuffs that are a little snog to comfortably get over my boots. If they work for you, that's great. I have a few different pieces of outerwear, but I'm really liking the stuff from Airblaster and Volcom lately. they fit my tall frame, and the price and construction are in line with what works best for me. I ride primarily in the PNW, so waterproofing and breathability are a big deal.

Is this the part where your opinion enables you to belittle mine?


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## phony_stark (Jul 2, 2011)

Leon, 

I don't think Nose hates anyone on snowboarding forum, but he has noticed, that there are a few people on here that spit misinformation all over the place to people that are actually interested in the products he's selling.

Leo, you did the right thing, you didn't like the products, had an e-fight (maybe?) and were like, well I'm going to spread the stoke about stuff I do like. I didn't like Union, but I have other things to sell.

You didn't have anything nice to say, so you didn't say anything at all.

Two people on this very thread, one of which hasn't contributed ANYTHING to the thread, go OUT of their way, to shoot down every Union post based on very limited experiences, or outdated ones.

Again, you, Dave, SnowWolf climbz, are people around here I respect.

Nivek, I just can't take seriously anymore, especially when it comes to Union stuff.
I have no idea what Shredlife does except follow me and Nivek.


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## Alkasquawlik (Jul 13, 2010)

Leo said:


> I just don't get why Johan's panties are this bunched up. Doesn't he realize that he is losing customers here. Love or hate this forum, but just like at EL, people buy gear based on what they read here.
> 
> I can't imagine how awesome Johan could have made Union look had he chose to give those Team bindings to someone here... not a reviewer, but someone looking to decide between a Union or say a Malavita.
> 
> ...


This wasn't a "forum raid", at all. Although the Pointer Sisters may say otherwise.

Johan's whole rationale for this "contest" was to encourage members from EL who are either pro-Union or have had solid, positive experiences on their bindings to come to SBF to provide an opposite viewpoint to the vocal minority that is vehemently against C3.

Phony doesn't want the Teams. I don't want the Teams. I'm sure matty doesn't either. I couldn't give a fuck less about that contest. The reason why we're here is because we enjoy talking about snowboarding with other people. 

Do you even know who Johan is?
He is an integral part of the community over at EL, along with numerous other industry people. He posts in threads, bullshits, and has personal relationships with a bunch of posters there. Much like WiredSport and whatever other guys you have here. That's awesome marketing. I even think he took some ELers feedback and input them into last year's Superpros.

Anyway, anyone who wants to talk snowboarding is more than welcome over at Easyloungin.


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## Alkasquawlik (Jul 13, 2010)

ShredLife said:


> Arcteryx - sorry little buddy but you're just showing your ignorance here. if you're into your fashionista thing and like to buy new outerwear every season or two that's on you. i like shit that works and lasts. Arcteryx makes hands down the most effective outerwear in the game. better than any snowboarding company because all of them are marketing to little teeny-bopper hipster-wannabes who are sponsored by mommy. name one. say AK and i'll laugh in your face.


I get the feeling you're a sad, grumpy, single older male who hates the "skittle colored" younger generation. Amirite?

Have fun rocking your Arcteryx. I'll be the kid decked out in Analog.


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## ShredLife (Feb 6, 2010)

no that diatribe was to your little buddies.

they do not use the same face fabrics. period. the sabre line and more of the newer stuff is cut more with an "on resort/i never have to wear a harness or a backpack" kind of a look. 

volcom's gore is nothing like Arc' everything from V has liners: pointless in a gore hardshell. they're also sub-par construction compared to Arc' - hell even Mt. Hardware is...

airblaster??? :laugh::laugh::laugh: come on dude. 


if all you do is ride resorts and you buy or get kicked new gear every year or two then i can see why you're fine with it.

when/if you start riding backcountry, camping in the snow in tents or in snowcaves, hiking for lines, and living in your gear you will realize what i'm talking about. 
Trew, HomeSchool (sorta), AK (sub-par construction to Arc') LINERLESS shells are about the only thing coming close to a 'snowboard' company trying to compete with Arc'


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## ShredLife (Feb 6, 2010)

Alkasquawlik said:


> Have fun rocking your Arcteryx. I'll be the kid who needs new gear every season


fixed.....


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## KungMartin (Oct 31, 2012)

bseracka said:


> I'd really perfer you didn't and don't want anything from you even if you do. Personally I thought the wierd stuf was the Germans, not the Sweeds. My point is: you bought an incorrectly sized board for your foot size, you don't know how to mount bindings, you bought bindings that you like and you bought boots that are not naturally shaped to work with your bindings highback causing an ill fit. I don't understand what makes you have any knowledge to drop about snowboarding in general, or bindings you've never ridden.


i have ridden'em. they're 11/12 union force. and everything was fine, only problem evidently was that i had slightly more toe than heel drag.

you just have no idea what you're saying do you?


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## Alkasquawlik (Jul 13, 2010)

ShredLife said:


> fixed.....


yup, gearwhore-ness has it's downfalls.

Although, I could take a page out of Nivek's book and claim some shit to make myself seem more popular on SBF, but I'd rather not.

Like I said, enjoy your Arcteryx.


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## phony_stark (Jul 2, 2011)

ShredLife said:


> no that diatribe was to your little buddies.
> 
> when/if you start sleeping in a van down by the river you'll realize what i'm talking about.
> '


I love this guy.


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## phony_stark (Jul 2, 2011)

Alkasquawlik said:


> yup, gearwhore-ness has it's downfalls.
> 
> Although, I could take a page out of Nivek's book and claim some shit to make myself seem more popular on SBF, but I'd rather not.
> 
> Like I said, enjoy your Arcteryx.


Bro, Nivek is already on that misty 2014 shit. Copped a quick photo










He says it runs a little bigger on him than on his rep (pictured), but he's gonna make it work.


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## Leo (Nov 24, 2009)

I only know Johan from his rude comments in my Union force review. To the point where even mocked me in his forum signature in this forum. I returned the favor.

The thing is, as I pointed out, he crossed the line when he brought this up in my work email. This is my personal account. Yes, I had a signature with my employer's site before, but with a disclosure that I don't represent the company. Johan on the other hand DOES represent Union.

We supposedly squashed our silly beef in that email exchange. Only to have smart ass remarks made at me at the following test fest.

Does any of this honestly sound cool to you? Am I going up to the Union tent and bringing up some Internet beef between me and Johan? Am I talking shit about him behind his back at test fest? No.

While he might be the coolest broseph at EL, he sure wasn't here.

And like I said, I call BS on his contest intent. But regardless of that intent, the end result is the same. There's now a bunch of trash talking between EL and SBF members.

Not a very effective way of educating riders if you ask me.


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## david_z (Dec 14, 2009)

Alkasquawlik said:


> Johan's whole rationale for this "contest" was to encourage members from EL who are either pro-Union or have had solid, positive experiences on their bindings to come to SBF to provide an opposite viewpoint to the vocal minority that is vehemently against C3.


Well yeah that's what he _said_ but that was a pretty lame attempt to defend a "contest" that by all outward appearances was designed to threadjack as many threads and as often as possible by as many EL users as possible (which of course is a violation of TOS on every forum in the known interverseweb). Encouraging such behavior is childish and the shitstorm of eDick-swinging that resulted from this "contest" were as predictable as gravity so frankly nobody from EL or C3 has any legitimate gripe about this forum's (negative) reaction to this "contest" (or, insofar as that negative vibe spills over to EL or C3 _generally_).

I _get_ that he may feel a certain way about the content generated at this forum (even if I don't necessarily agree), and I _get_ that maybe he's trying, in some way, to make it better or to improve the quality of discourse at SBF, but like I mentioned yesterday this "contest" is a really, really shitty & immature way to go about trying to remedy that perceived problem.


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## phony_stark (Jul 2, 2011)

Leo and Dave,

Leo, sorry, you had a bad experience, I don't know him personally, but I think at the tent he was just taking the piss out of you.

I have to disagree with the contest intent. So far, the only results of this contest, have (when not presented with "resistance" from a very small group of people) been positive. A lot of members who needed help setting up bindings, buying boots, boards, etc. were helped by more active members on EL. All while staying on topic...the only people who have veered things off topic have been the more active members of this board. You can look, aside from making fun and throwing a dubious eye on skichalletshack I have been on topic in every thread I've posted in. I can't say the same for some members who had to be constantly reminded to contribute to the thread instead of making attacks.

Which reminds me... Shredlife, which bindings do you prefer?


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## matty19 (Nov 19, 2010)

ShredLife said:


> no that diatribe was to your little buddies.
> 
> they do not use the same face fabrics. period. the sabre line and more of the newer stuff is cut more with an "on resort/i never have to wear a harness or a backpack" kind of a look.
> 
> ...


I like my airblaster stuff. It's fun and playful - just like snowboarding. 

When I ride in the side/back country, I don't sleep in snow caves or live in my gear. That's not my scene at this point. I've got too many other things going on in my life.

I don't get my gear for free. I have gotten a few hook-ups in the past, for which I was SUPER appreciative, but almost everything that I'm currently using I spend my hard-earned $$$ on. 

For my type of riding (in and out of bounds, hiking, lots of pow) I have had the best experiences with jackets that have features designed to keep snow out (thumb loops, pow cuffs, jacket-pants interfaces) and pants that work well with snowboard boots and allow for a full range of movement. In my experience, Arcteryx is too expensive and aimed more at mountaineering. That's just one man's opinion, though.


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## killclimbz (Aug 10, 2007)

matty19 said:


> Is any of this aimed at me?
> 
> I'm not the one who started riding two years ago. I started riding almost 27 years ago. There were some breaks in there, and I may not have a lifestyle that allows me to ride more than a couple of days a week, but I get my days in. I'm not going pro or anything, but I'm happy with my 90%.
> 
> ...


Your Arcteryx complaint actually made me laugh. Not at you because I literally have the same problem. Not athletic cut enough aka too big around the middle. Sound familiar? You'd think I wasn't a splitboarder. Fat tubby bitch I am.

Regardless, Arcteryx stuff does hold up much better than almost any snowboard companies outerwear. Same thing with Mountain Hardware stuff. I've got a MH softshell jacket that is over 6 years old, and it's still more than functional. A couple of snowboard jackets I tried, didn't last much more than a season. I've got some Homeschool stuff I am trying. So far the jacket is solid and may actually be another long lasting piece. Which is good to see. 

So I don't blame shred for going Arcteryx. If it fits, it will last. For those of us built a bit more sturdy, might not be the right gear. Nothing works if it don't fit though. Just like boots.

I also think there is a gold mine of information here for Union. Even if it hasn't been presented in the best of form. The type of stuff that can help take a company next level actually. It's all there.

Watch the trash talk on this please. Everyone is allowed to disagree, right or wrong. I'd rather not kill this thread.


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## david_z (Dec 14, 2009)

phony_stark said:


> Leo and Dave,
> 
> So far, the only results of this contest, ... have (when not presented with "resistance" from a very small group of people) been positive.


Yeah this is nothing against you (thanks for being mature about everything) and you're right it has not been all bad and certainly there are members on this forum who have played right in to their hand , but what i'm saying is that this was a predictable outcome of the "contest" (which has now been mysteriously disappeared from EL).


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## phony_stark (Jul 2, 2011)

david_z said:


> Yeah this is nothing against you (thanks for being mature about everything) and you're right it has not been all bad and certainly there are members on this forum who have played right in to their hand , but what i'm saying is that this was a predictable outcome of the "contest" (which has now been mysteriously disappeared from EL).


No Mystery. Contest and its thread where removed by request from 'Climbz. EL & Johan agreed.

I still think the predictable outcome was 

Someone asks about Unions
-One of three or so people on this board was like "They Suck"
-Someone who rides unions regularly disagrees
-Thread gets jacked. OP is not given any additional information about their topic, unless they were also curious as to Nivek's blog credits, who is possibly gay or, in real life, some kind of penis, or how COAR a member is.

Which, if you look at history, (at least mine) predates the contest by about a year.....probably more.

Johan thought this needed to stop, other members who use both boards agreed. Maybe the contest wasn't the best idea, but it has HOPEFULLY caused a paradigm shift on this board, where more than one idea, opinion, can be welcome.

Edit: Sorry Nivek for making fun of you, it was out of line and had nothing to do with the topic of gear. I hope I didn't hurt your feelings.


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## matty19 (Nov 19, 2010)

killclimbz said:


> Your Arcteryx complaint actually made me laugh. Not at you because I literally have the same problem. Not athletic cut enough aka too big around the middle. Sound familiar? You'd think I wasn't a splitboarder. Fat tubby bitch I am.
> 
> Regardless, Arcteryx stuff does hold up much better than almost any snowboard companies outerwear. Same thing with Mountain Hardware stuff. I've got a MH softshell jacket that is over 6 years old, and it's still more than functional. A couple of snowboard jackets I tried, didn't last much more than a season. I've got some Homeschool stuff I am trying. So far the jacket is solid and may actually be another long lasting piece. Which is good to see.
> 
> ...


My issue with the Arcteryx fit is more about length than volume. I'm pretty tough on gear, but I've had pretty good performance from the Airblaster, Burton, and Volcom pieces that I've tried.

As a pnw rider, I've been really curious about Homeschool. Unfortunately their XL stuff isn't long enough for me.

I agree on the durability of some of the Mountain Hardwear stuff. I've got a five or six year old Gore Pro shell from them, and a ten+ year old rain shell (can't remember the laminate). The Columbia Sportswear merger/buyout doesn't seem to have too badly impacted the quality. Still, the cuffs on their pants are too tight to work well with snowboard boots (for me), and the jackets are too short in both the arms and the body to work well for riding (for me). Great stuff for backpacking and snowshoeing, though!

I don't think that I've been doing much trash talking at this point. Just trying to respond to some occasional posturing with attempts at reason and honest reflection when possible.


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## sabatoa (Jan 18, 2011)

david_z said:


> Yeah this is nothing against you (thanks for being mature about everything) and you're right it has not been all bad and certainly there are members on this forum who have played right in to their hand , but what i'm saying is that this was a predictable outcome of the "contest" (which has now been mysteriously disappeared from EL).


From EL:

nose-dradamous said:

Contest is officially over!
Just asked Parker to pull this whole thing down out of respect to "killclimbz" at SBF.
Awareness was raised, info was given, said clowns were called out, everyone kept it classy...all for a pair of bindings.
Very very impressed at the call to arms action from everyone and very thankful. So a heartfelt thank you from myself (my name is Johan by the way, I don't post anonymously) and from C3.
PM me your votes for the member most deserving, also the dudes that were obvious front runners, send me your best link.
Your still welcome to drop by SBF to contribute positive, educated opinions.
Thanks again, made this week a smile fest.
Now back to the normal business at hand...


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## killclimbz (Aug 10, 2007)

matty19 said:


> My issue with the Arcteryx fit is more about length than volume. I'm pretty tough on gear, but I've had pretty good performance from the Airblaster, Burton, and Volcom pieces that I've tried.
> 
> As a pnw rider, I've been really curious about Homeschool. Unfortunately their XL stuff isn't long enough for me.
> 
> ...


Yeah, I've pretty much found you have to go snowboard pants, at least for me. Like you Arcteryx doesn't work for me. MH will in most cases, Jacket wise. I find that with pants, I usually have to go with a company that has snowboard sensibilities. 

Kind of surprised to hear that about Homeschool, I thought they ran a little large. 

I haven't found you to be a trash talker or spammer. Hence why you weren't banned but some other EL members were.


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## david_z (Dec 14, 2009)

phony_stark said:


> No Mystery. Contest and its thread where removed by request from 'Climbz. EL & Johan agreed.


Gotcha. As you can probably tell, I don't spend much (any?) time at EL so I didn't see that or hear about it  thanks!



phony_stark said:


> HOPEFULLY caused a paradigm shift on this board, where more than one idea, opinion, can be welcome.


Agreed. Cheers.


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## matty19 (Nov 19, 2010)

killclimbz said:


> Yeah, I've pretty much found you have to go snowboard pants, at least for me. Like you Arcteryx doesn't work for me. MH will in most cases, Jacket wise. I find that with pants, I usually have to go with a company that has snowboard sensibilities.
> 
> Kind of surprised to hear that about Homeschool, I thought they ran a little large.
> 
> I haven't found you to be a trash talker or spammer. Hence why you weren't banned but some other EL members were.


The length issue is more prevalent for me than it might be for others. I'm pretty tall. 

There are lots of great companies out there that I wish that I could fit into their stuff, but I just have to admire it on other people!


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## killclimbz (Aug 10, 2007)

phony_stark said:


> No Mystery. Contest and its thread where removed by request from 'Climbz. EL & Johan agreed.
> 
> I still think the predictable outcome was
> 
> ...


Yes, I did ask that the thread get yanked. Nothing good was going to come of it in the long run. Several people came over just to start shit, others not so much. It would have led to bad feelings and asshattery all the way around. I've seen this before and it just never goes well. 

The only way you change things is by example. Of course I get that sometimes it's more fun to cause havok. Having fun with that sort of thing on an entirely different E venue right now actually...


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## phony_stark (Jul 2, 2011)

I think we've set a pretty good one. 

Shredlife, What bindings would you recommend to the OP?


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## ShredLife (Feb 6, 2010)

ShredLife said:


> in no particular order: flux, rome, burton, k2, raiden, now, salomon...


not union - they market their company like douchebags.


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## phony_stark (Jul 2, 2011)

apologies, I missed that....not sure how.


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## ShredLife (Feb 6, 2010)

to be fair i think i might have copied that from one of the other ridiculous threads around here lately.


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## phony_stark (Jul 2, 2011)

That's very fair.


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## henry06x (Feb 16, 2011)

I love Reading this forum to learn stuff (pros and cons) about all the manufacturers because I don't personally get to try all the gear I want too. Personally it seems more open minded here towards brands (although certain people do like to voice their disliked brands) than EL does. Generally on here you get a vast lineup of good choices with the few heavily favorited brands and every time I read an EL thread it seems like its always the exact same shit being pushed and heavily pro union for bindings and hating a majority of other brands. Atleast that was the feel I had when I searched things there.

Since the start of that ridicules "contest" it's made reading this forum fucking suck and a headache to see any actual real information in between the bickering and hating. 
Hopefully it looks like it is finally starting to turn back in a positive direction. Hell even shredlife was constructive there for a second lol.


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## Alkasquawlik (Jul 13, 2010)

henry06x said:


> I love Reading this forum to learn stuff (pros and cons) about all the manufacturers because I don't personally get to try all the gear I want too. Personally it seems more open minded here towards brands (although certain people do like to voice their disliked brands) than EL does. Generally on here you get a vast lineup of good choices with the few heavily favorited brands and every time I read an EL thread it seems like its always the exact same shit being pushed and heavily pro union for bindings and hating a majority of other brands. Atleast that was the feel I had when I searched things there.


How long did you lurk over on Easyloungin?

EL is heavily pro C3, and there are a few die hard fanatics over there, but even they annoy me with their blind, irrational love for a single product. But there are a ton of guys over there, with a lot of knowledge about many, many different brands who are more than willing to drop some information if you ask.

Personally, what you wrote about SBF is exactly how I feel about EL. There's a lot of Analog, Airblaster, C3, and Burton love over there, but there are many posters who ride other things and like I said, are more than willing to help out other people with their experiences.

This place isn't bad at all, other than a couple kooks who think they're "King of the Mountain" on an internet site. Tools.
And that's the thing, you said you like reading all the "pros and cons" of a single brand. Every single fucking brand is going to have pros and cons, it depends on you personally as a rider and your preferences for things. However, due to a couple people being too clueless to correctly set up a pair of Union bindings, even if it took them 2 hours, and then come and just blatantly spam SBF with the "cons" of a certain brand, is there a reason why people can't post up their positive experiences with product, without the Pointer Sisters freaking out and ripping their hair out?

There's even people filtering over to EL from here who are mentioning the random anti-C3 hate.

"Mainly here for the simple fact that I was beginning to think I was a dumbshit for rocking Force when I haven't ever had a problem with them. Start to read stuff long enough though and it can make a guy think twice.

Feeling much better about my 2nd Union purchase after lurking the forums here for the past few days."

There's a place for every single snowboard company out there, and obviously C3 is killing it, due to their market share and product flying off the shelves. If they don't work for you, go find something else.


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## phony_stark (Jul 2, 2011)

This. 

Especially the part that newer members and less experienced members of this forum are constantly being dictated to by a few guys who, while knowledgeable (I think), bristle at the fact that an opinion/experience can differ from theirs and refuse to defer even when they don't have as much experience with the product as someone else. 

It takes a lot of credibility away from them and the forum itself, which is, by and large, a cool place. Shouts to Leo and Dave.


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## henry06x (Feb 16, 2011)

It was around the time I joined here I was reading around EL also. Still do from time to time when I can't find what I'm looking for here. I'm sure there are a knowledgable guys there also. May have just been the majority of what was being talked about on EL are brands I'm just not interested in styling/design wise, not saying its bad product and they like the brands I do here. I like Ride and there seems to be nothing for hate about them every time I look on EL.

I think guys around here like Leo, Dave z, snowwolf (great detailed reviews), and Nivek (I know he dislikes mervin and union, but he has great knowledge about a lot of other brands) give great views on equipment. There is a very diverse group here IMO and I think generally you get a lot of pros and cons for every brand. Bios is probably more in one direction here and EL in the other direction, but you still hear the good about everything.


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## phony_stark (Jul 2, 2011)

Snowolf said:


> Wow!
> 
> Christ people, it's a god damn pair of bindings; get over the retarded over emotional reactions to equipment.
> 
> let it go!


I agree with this.


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## henry06x (Feb 16, 2011)

phony_stark said:


> I agree with this.


Well your just one heck of an agreeable person aren't you? First you agree with that rep for needing to get this started. Now you agree with snow wolf that everyone needs to get over it (I do however also agree)... If there were a list of people to blame for this shitfest that has taken place over the last few day you would be right under that rep who started it all.

Okay I'm done now. This is annoying and I don't know why I just decided to get involved. Maybe it was the annoyance of it all, maybe it was boredom.


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## dreampow (Sep 26, 2011)

To the OP, in my opinion go with the tivas.

Some people clearly love union bindings and clearly the toe caps fit their boots, good for them.

Many people (not just the haters) find the straps don't fit well. I have seen many people make that same observation here in Japan as well as on this forum. 

Just seems weird to an impartial like me that a company wouldn't try to address a clear issue raised by many customers. 

Its like the response from union is "No you're wrong, the toe cap is perfect you just don't know how to use it right, we'll keep on making it the same way until you realize how to use it right".

Opinions are very subjective, everyone knows that. 

Even though some members on here are very (way over the top) vocal in their preferences or dislike of certain brands those reading take it with a pinch of salt. 

Anyone with any sense listens to pros and cons from a range of people then makes their OWN choice. 

Its just gear, why shouldn't we be able to say what we think? 

If its good gear there will be plenty of positive posts to balance the negative ones. Thats the point of a forum as opposed to a review site where people need to keep good relations with the companies. 

Nivek is pretty vocal in his dislike for NS, fair enough, he prefers other boards. 

Doesn't stop those who like NS recommending them on here. Let everyone have their say. 

Its not the negative or positive opinions on gear that are the problem. 
Its *emotional, personal attacks* that I would like to see the end of. 

Just makes reading through a thread a pain in the ass and much longer than it needs to be:thumbsdown:.


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## ThunderChunky (Oct 1, 2011)

Snowolf said:


> Wow!
> 
> Been off of the site all week in Arizona and this is the shit show that has taken place? Christ people, it's a god damn pair of bindings; get over the retarded over emotional reactions to equipment.
> 
> ...


Wait....for real? Cause I've been riding this ESP board for ten fucking years.


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## Nivek (Jan 24, 2008)

dreampow said:


> To the OP, in my opinion go with the tivas.
> 
> Some people clearly love union bindings and clearly the toe caps fit their boots, good for them.
> 
> ...


Fucking hell. You nailed it. 

And with this, I'm done. I'm gonna go snowboard now.


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## sxdaca (Oct 5, 2012)

henry06x said:


> Well your just one heck of an agreeable person aren't you? First you agree with that rep for needing to get this started. Now you agree with snow wolf that everyone needs to get over it (I do however also agree)... If there were a list of people to blame for this shitfest that has taken place over the last few day you would be right under that rep who started it all.
> 
> Okay I'm done now. This is annoying and I don't know why I just decided to get involved. Maybe it was the annoyance of it all, maybe it was boredom.


This :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:


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## phony_stark (Jul 2, 2011)

henry06x said:


> Well your just one heck of an agreeable person aren't you? First you agree with that rep for needing to get this started. Now you agree with snow wolf that everyone needs to get over it (I do however also agree)... If there were a list of people to blame for this shitfest that has taken place over the last few day you would be right under that rep who started it all.
> 
> Okay I'm done now. This is annoying and I don't know why I just decided to get involved. Maybe it was the annoyance of it all, maybe it was boredom.


I agree. I think you were just bored.

If you're still bored, please find me evidence on how I started the shitstorm, the mods will probably disagree with you. In fact, I think I even helped you find a link on how to progress in the park better through Dave.

Anyway, it just dropped 8" at the local hill and they're gonna re-open on Sunday.
See you guys on the hill and on this board!


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## snowklinger (Aug 30, 2011)

I've read this thread several times over the last few days and I simply thank fuck that between snowboarding, work, and copious drug use, I have no idea what it is about, and I'm SO HAPPY!!!:laugh:


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