# Sidecut/effective edge?



## Bertieman (Jan 19, 2014)

So I have;
Lib hot knife @ 1170mm effective edge & 8.2m sidecut
Yes Public @ 1100mm effective edge & 7.6m sidecut

In addition to me not understanding where these measurements are taken, more importantly, what do these statistics say the difference will be regarding quicker turn initiation, and laying in a hard carve?

Because I could NOT lay into a carve with the yes public. I know it's a park board but I also don't know if the edges were detuned and that's why I couldn't carve? Or would one of these measurements basically tell me you can't lay into a carve? I found the yes public waaay quicker to turn though.


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## francium (Jan 12, 2013)

The longer effective edge and bigger turn radius will be better for long high speed carves the shorter the turn radius will make for quicker carves.


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## Bertieman (Jan 19, 2014)

francium said:


> The longer effective edge and bigger turn radius will be better for long high speed carves the shorter the turn radius will make for quicker carves.


Then the profile of the board (camber, flat, rocker) must be taken into consideration regarding how well you could carve a board? 

Because lets look at capita ultra fear (primarily park board, no?) the effective edge of a 155 is 1180, versus the 156 hot knife 1170. You're gonna tell me that ultrafear should statistically be able to lay out a deeper carve?


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## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

Bertieman said:


> Then the profile of the board (camber, flat, rocker) must be taken into consideration regarding how well you could carve a board?
> 
> Because lets look at capita ultra fear (primarily park board, no?) the effective edge of a 155 is 1180, versus the 156 hot knife 1170. You're gonna tell me that ultrafear should statistically be able to lay out a deeper carve?


Not necessarily. No one piece of data is going to give you the full picture. It's a combination of factors including effective edge, sidecut radius, camber profile, and flex. Not to mention, last but certainly not least, good old personal preference.


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## francium (Jan 12, 2013)

Bertieman said:


> Then the profile of the board (camber, flat, rocker) must be taken into consideration regarding how well you could carve a board?
> 
> Because lets look at capita ultra fear (primarily park board, no?) the effective edge of a 155 is 1180, versus the 156 hot knife 1170. You're gonna tell me that ultrafear should statistically be able to lay out a deeper carve?


He never asked about profiles just how those two things would affect carving.


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## ETM (Aug 11, 2009)

Bertieman said:


> So I have;
> Lib hot knife @ 1170mm effective edge & 8.2m sidecut
> Yes Public @ 1100mm effective edge & 7.6m sidecut
> 
> ...


7.6 and 8.2 is sfa difference in radii. You just wouldn't be able to identify which is which.
70mm in ee is a bit though, all things being equal you would definitely feel the longer edge has more traction.


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## Wiredsport (Sep 16, 2009)

Hi Bertie,

STOKED for the question.

Effective Edge measures the arc between the tip and tail widepoints and follows the curved sidecut of the board. It tells you a lot about how much edge grip a board will have. 










Sidecut radius is another important measurement (and is also often confused with effective edge). Sidecut radius is measured by taking the radius of the circle that any boards sidecut would produce if it were to be fully extended. This tells a lot about the turn that any board _wants_ to do. A smaller # here means a tighter turn.










Let us all know your weight, foot size and the sizes of the boards above.


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## Bertieman (Jan 19, 2014)

Wiredsport said:


> Hi Bertie,
> 
> STOKED for the question.
> 
> ...


The yes public is a 152 wide, 258 ww. The hot knife is a 156, 253ww
I'm @ 165lb and 11 boot 

See the picture attached, I drew the lines. Is this the 'sidecut' or the 'effective edge' between both of those horizontal black lines?


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## Wiredsport (Sep 16, 2009)

Hi,

In terms of board measurements the area between the two black lines that you have provided will not match up to any commonly provided spec. 

the distance between your lines would measure the depth of the sidecut, but that measurement is not commonly provided by manufacturers or in literature. 

When "sidecut" is refereed to as a spec it is not actually a board measurement at all. It is a measurement of the radius of a circle. 

Effective edge is a measurement of the total edge between the widepoints which follows the arc itself (not a straight line).


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## Bertieman (Jan 19, 2014)

Wiredsport said:


> Hi,
> 
> In terms of board measurements the area between the two black lines that you have provided will not match up to any commonly provided spec.
> 
> ...


Okay I think I understand it now. So there's exactly 1170 milimeters between the widest point of the tip and the widest point of the tail? Or is it measured between the contact points? But that wouldn't make sense because there are shorter boards that have a higher effective edge in numbers.


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## Wiredsport (Sep 16, 2009)

Bertieman said:


> Okay I think I understand it now. So there's exactly 1170 milimeters between the widest point of the tip and the widest point of the tail? Or is it measured between the contact points? But that wouldn't make sense because there are shorter boards that have a higher effective edge in numbers.


Hi,

A shorter board can indeed have a longer effective edge than a longer board and they very often do. That is why effective edge along with running length are so valuable and why we try to devalue tip to tip board length at every opportunity . 

Effective edge is designed to measure the actual edge that will be available to the rider when edging and weighted into the snow (or ice). That is typically wide point to wide point and measured along the arc.


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## Bertieman (Jan 19, 2014)

I've basically been trying to pinpoint where my new board will fall (154 slash happy place) in comparison to my 152 yes public.

The happy place has a 7.2 sidecut and 1120 effective edge. So statistically, I don't think it will differ too much from the yes' 7.6 sidecut and 1100 effective edge? Unless the camrock within the slash helps (the slash is also a bit more stiff). I was trying to obtain more of a all mtn board with the happy place.


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## Wiredsport (Sep 16, 2009)

You gain 2 cm of effective edge with the happy place and the sidecut radius gets only a slight bit tighter 7.2m from 7.6m. The move from Flat Rock to RCR and the stiffness boost from Biax to Triax and the poppier core will add to those factors. You are moving in the right direction for what you are looking to get at. Not a huge jump but it will be notable.


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## Bertieman (Jan 19, 2014)

Wiredsport said:


> the sidecut radius gets only a slight bit tighter 7.2m from 7.6m.


Does this mean the higher the number, the more geared it should be toward carving?

Or does it mean the higher the number, the more jib focused it will be?


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## Wiredsport (Sep 16, 2009)

Sidecut Radius is the manufacturer defining for you the circle that a board would make based on its sidecut shapes (boards do not all have a single smooth and constant sidecut shape so the combination of the sidecut shapes is used). The smaller the radius, the smaller the circle. a board with a sidecut radius of 7.2 is designed to complete a circle with a 7.2 Meter radius if that edge were to be completely engaged for a full circle. 

If all other board elements were identical a smaller radius would mean a tighter turning board and a larger radius would mean longer more drawn out turns.


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## Bertieman (Jan 19, 2014)

Wiredsport said:


> (boards do not all have a single smooth and constant sidecut shape so the combination of the sidecut shapes is used).
> 
> The smaller the radius, the smaller the circle.


1- Are you talking about a board with magnetraction? 
2- You said I would be gaining 2 cm of sidecut radius going from 7.6 to 7.2, and that it would be "tighter". Are you saying this will help with with laying a carve or no?

I don't totally understand everything you're saying. It would be a hell of a lot easier if I could talk about this in person.


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## Wiredsport (Sep 16, 2009)

Hi Bertie,

There are many types of sidecut design that are not a single constant curve. The image below is an example (there are many variations that are commonly used) of a design that combines different sidecut curves to achieve a desired result. 










I had written that you would gain 2 cm of effective edge (not sidecut radius) with the Happy Place - 112 cm over over the 110 cm of your Public.

The Happy Place also has a smaller radius that the Public. 7.2 M vs 7.6 M. 

Those two factors alone would indicate a board that has more edge hold and "wants" to do a (very) slightly tighter turn.


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## Bertieman (Jan 19, 2014)

Hey Wired,

I've been reading your responses from this thread - http://www.snowboardingforum.com/boards/40915-contact-length-vs-effective-edge.html

Why do you say R.I.P running length? Is this statistic commonly used on websites like backcountry, evo, or stated on the snowboards info still? Or am I overlooking it? 

And the effective edge of 1120mm measures out to be 112 cm. Is this the amount of centimeters that one side of the boards edge touches the ground?


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## Wiredsport (Sep 16, 2009)

Hi Bertie,




> Why do you say R.I.P running length? Is this statistic commonly used on websites like backcountry, evo, or stated on the snowboards info still? Or am I overlooking it?


I wrote R.I.P. running length because, as I mentioned in the post that you linked, it is largely no longer provided and when it is the manufacturers are not defining what measurement they are using. 

Running length (used synonymously with contact length) tells a lot about performance but is much more difficult to consider now that the wide variety of profiles in use make consistent measurements across all boards tricky.



> And the effective edge of 1120mm measures out to be 112 cm. Is this the amount of centimeters that one side of the boards edge touches the ground?


Correct. Any mm measurement can be converted to cm by dividing by 10. That is typically wide point to wide point and measured along the arc.

STOKED!


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## Bertieman (Jan 19, 2014)

I've been trying to let this info sink in over the past week, so I think I'm almost there.

The burton custom x is an aggresive board, great for carving (granted I've never ridden it). The 156 custom x has a sidecut of 8.0, whereas the 156 lib hot knife has a sidecut of 8.2. Is this where the more pronounced camber and stiffness of the custom x equate to a better carving board over the hot knife? Or... if they were the same profile and sitffness, would the hot knife technically be able to carve a bigger line?


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## Wiredsport (Sep 16, 2009)

Hi Bertie,

The Custom X and the Hot Knife in 156 cm have the same contact length (117 cm) and are both Camber boards (the version of C3 on the Hot Knife is a subtle variation of camber) which makes this an excellent comparison.

The 8.2 sidecut radius of the Hot knife is the Mervin telling you that this board is designed to carve a (very slightly) longer arc should the edge be fully weighted and engaged than the Custom X at 8.0.

Please keep in mind however that sidecut radius does not limit a board to a specific carve shape. Rider input allows you to carve out a wide variety of lines on any given sidecut. The sidecut radius simply helps define the base circle shape that you are working with.

Stiffness, profile, and materials will also have a large impact here as they are critical to keeping a board firmly on edge, helping a rider transition from edge to edge and allowing rider input to help initiate and shape the turn.

STOKED!


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## Bertieman (Jan 19, 2014)

Wiredsport said:


> Hi Bertie,
> 
> The Custom X and the Hot Knife in 156 cm have the same contact length (117 cm) and are both Camber boards (the version of C3 on the Hot Knife is a subtle variation of camber) which makes this an excellent comparison.
> 
> ...


Awesome, thanks for more clarification.

I remember you recommending the gnu riders choice to me. I'm questioning how the dampness, pop, pow handling, and carving potential will be for this board (I know I'm geeking out on this). There aren't any video reviews out there of people actually riding the board and giving their input on it. Have you ridden this board?

The 154.5 has a sidecut of 8.1/7.7 and effective edge of 1160, which seems pretty close to the hot knife. The 157.5 is 8.2/7.8 and 1190, which looks like it may be a tad more aggressive. I'm not opposed to either and I weigh about 165.


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## Wiredsport (Sep 16, 2009)

Hi Bertie,

Yes, I remember making that suggestion. I have a lot of days on the RC over many years. The current version has a different sidecut for toe and heel and uses different core materials for toe and heel. They have blended all of this really well. 

We sell this board so consider me very biased but yes, I like it a lot and think it will be a great model for what you have been looking for in your threads. I would suggest the 157.5 for your specs.


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