# Scorpioned while flat basing and now I can't anymore



## jtg

So after a few times out this year I was flat basing on terrain that wasn't steep with no issue, especially cat tracks. Then once out of nowhere, I scorpioned HARD, not even going that fast. The problem is I don't know what I was doing wrong. So now I am very shy of flatbasing, even slowly on flat terrain.

I have a C2 BTX (aka RC on Neversummer) board.

Is there some trick to doing that while guaranteeing you won't catch an edge? I was way past the point of catching edges in normal riding so it was a little surprising. Yet I see other people flat base bombing steep black sections. And obviously you need to be able to do this at decent speed for most jumps. Usually when I try, I start feeling my back-end get a little squirrely and feel like I narrowly missed another scorpion. What am I missing? Keep all your weight on the front foot?


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## TorpedoVegas

Never ever flat base, always keep an edge..... End of thread.


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## jtg

TorpedoVegas said:


> Never ever flat base, always keep an edge..... End of thread.


That can't be right, because people flatbase all the time, especially before take-off and after landing. As well as just cruising.


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## Efilnikufesin

Not always recommended. I'm usually at least pressuring ever so slightly one edge or the other, but if you do flatbase, get all of you weight forward on the board.


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## Rookie09

Even if you're not engaging an edge you at least want some pressure on one of them. Yea you can get away with going completely flat based for a little while but every so often you're going to catch an edge when you least expect it. The best way to cure this is to simply not ride flat. Even straight airing off jumps and landing it's a good idea to have a bit of pressure on one of the edges.


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## wrathfuldeity

jtg said:


> I start feeling my back-end get a little squirrely and feel like I narrowly missed another scorpion. What am I missing? Keep all your weight on the front foot?


your backend feels squirrely that's your clue, are a bit in the backseat; shift to the front seat…
Edit: also make sure you are stacked and parallel with close shoulders and hips. You were likely rotated open and in the backseat....the usual set up for a scorpion


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## East§ide

Even when you think someone is flatbasing, they're usually not..you need to pick an edge..even if its just SLIGHTLY to one side, and you wont catch your edges. 
My ex-friend (unrelated) insisted that he rode flatbased..I told him to pay attention when he thought he was doing that and he came back and told me that he was actually putting a very small amount of pressure on his toes without even realizing it.


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## TorpedoVegas

East§ide said:


> Even when you think someone is flatbasing, they're usually not..you need to pick an edge..even if its just SLIGHTLY to one side, and you wont catch your edges.
> My ex-friend (unrelated) insisted that he rode flatbased..I told him to pay attention when he thought he was doing that and he came back and told me that he was actually putting a very small amount of pressure on his toes without even realizing it.


Exactly...... Don't ever simply flat base unless you want to end up doing an awesome scorp eventually. Always, always stay slightly on edge...I have a C2BTX board as well, and it will save your ass compared to a regular camber board, but I still never ever, ever, ride without engaging an edge. You can ride out a landing flat and most cases be fine for a little while, but if your not on an edge ASAP you might end up on yer ass pretty quick.

I think of it like this... If you're actually flat basing, you're not actually snowboarding, what you're doing is standing on a snowboard. My 2 year old can stand on a snowboard (flat-base down a hill), but he sure as shit can't snowboard.


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## Deacon

TorpedoVegas said:


> Exactly...... Don't ever simply flat base unless you want to end up doing an awesome scorp eventually. Always, always stay slightly on edge...I have a C2BTX board as well, and it will save your ass compared to a regular camber board, but I still never ever, ever, ride without engaging an edge. You can ride out a landing flat and most cases be fine for a little while, but if your not on an edge ASAP you might end up on yer ass pretty quick.
> 
> I think of it like this... If you're actually flat basing, you're not actually snowboarding, what you're doing is standing on a snowboard. My 2 year old can stand on a snowboard (flat-base down a hill), but he sure as shit can't snowboard.


May as well stand on a sled. :laugh:


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## brucew.

jtg said:


> That can't be right, because people flatbase all the time, especially before take-off and after landing. As well as just cruising.



I doubt many people are actually cruising flatbased, thats asking to do what you just experienced. 

Taking off flatbased is really only a few seconds of actually flatbasing and hopefully if the park is maintained you won't have any problems. You don't have to takeoff flat either, you can use a low edge angle like cro mentioned. When I land, I try to engage an edge as soon as I gather myself. Landings where I ride are usually sketchy so I wouldn't want to be flatbasing long at all.


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## jtg

TorpedoVegas said:


> I think of it like this... If you're actually flat basing, you're not actually snowboarding, what you're doing is standing on a snowboard. My 2 year old can stand on a snowboard (flat-base down a hill), but he sure as shit can't snowboard.





The Deacon said:


> May as well stand on a sled. :laugh:


So you don't consider boardercross to be snowboarding, ok. :icon_scratch:

Of course no one is talking about going top to bottom in a straight line while flat, but there is a ton of flat base riding in boardercross.


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## wrathfuldeity

here's the deal, ur cruising along rotated open shoulder (mystery date), in the backseat and on heel edge...doing just fine....but then you switch edge to toe and bam scorped

its because you didn't get in the front seat 
or close before you went toeside
or likely both

there is lots of arguement about flatbased verses really on edge...

yes admittedly you want to be on a edge...but there are times that you are flat enough...yet on a very slight edge, that if you don't have you technique down you are going to eat shit...Thus the arguement is senseless because no one talks about the finer points of when, where and how to ride at a very very low angle....i.e, flatbased


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## Deacon

jtg said:


> So you don't consider boardercross to be snowboarding, ok. :icon_scratch:
> 
> Of course no one is talking about going top to bottom in a straight line while flat, but there is a ton of flat base riding in boardercross.


I was just joking... When he said a 2 year old standing on a board it made me think of when we were kids and we'd try to stand up in our sleds. Funny shit. (the sleds, not your scorpions)


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## jtg

To be fair my scorpion actually was quite funny. They usually are.

Edit: Found this old thread, didn't see it in the search because the title wasn't quite intuitive. Looks like it was quite debated already:

http://www.snowboardingforum.com/tips-tricks-snowboard-coaching/11177-staying-edge.html


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## Deacon

wrathfuldeity said:


> here's the deal, ur cruising along rotated open shoulder (mystery date)*TE'O'd*, in the backseat and on heel edge...doing just fine....but then you switch edge to toe and bam scorped
> 
> its because you didn't get in the front seat
> or close before you went toeside
> or likely both
> 
> there is lots of arguement about flatbased verses really on edge...
> 
> yes admittedly you want to be on a edge...but there are times that you are flat enough...yet on a very slight edge, that if you don't have you technique down you are going to eat shit...Thus the arguement is senseless because no one talks about the finer points of when, where and how to ride at a very very low angle....i.e, flatbased


for reference only...


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## ETM

I flatbase a lot. I do it on flat runouts so I maintain speed and I also do it sometimes on big groomers just to see how fast I can go and I quite enjoy the feeling. 
Its definately not a technical move but it is a part of snowboarding that if you dont master you will get caught out sooner or later either with a scorpion or not making it through a flat runout because you washed off your speed by using an edge.
I also do it at the end of the day when Im physically spent and cbfd carving, I just want to ride powder stashes


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## East§ide

ETM said:


> I flatbase a lot. I do it on flat runouts so I maintain speed and I also do it sometimes on big groomers just to see how fast I can go and I quite enjoy the feeling.
> Its definately not a technical move but it is a part of snowboarding that if you dont master you will get caught out sooner or later either with a scorpion or not making it through a flat runout because you washed off your speed by using an edge.
> I also do it at the end of the day when Im physically spent and cbfd carving, I just want to ride powder stashes


I think you THINK you're flat basing but I'd be willing to bet money that you're not.


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## ETM

Dude please.
You think your posting but maybe youre not LOL. I would love to take your money but for geographical reasons it will never happen unfortunately

I can flat base at maximum speed without even going near an edge, I fly past everyone on the mountain when Im doing it. Its just something I can do.

My edges are flat on the bottom and 88 on the side too, sharp like a razor blade so I kinda know when I engage one.


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## Rookie09

you don't have to be engaging in edge when you put pressure on it. You have to have some sort of pressure on an edge or else eventually you will scorpion big time when you least expect it.

If you are going maximum speed completely flat based, you're an idiot.


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## ETM

Rookie09 said:


> you don't have to be engaging in edge when you put pressure on it. You have to have some sort of pressure on an edge or else eventually you will scorpion big time when you least expect it.
> 
> If you are going maximum speed completely flat based, you're an idiot.


Im totally in control, whats the issue? I can use an edge at any time if I need to.


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## East§ide

Rookie09 said:


> you don't have to be engaging in edge when you put pressure on it. You have to have some sort of pressure on an edge or else eventually you will scorpion big time when you least expect it.
> 
> If you are going maximum speed completely flat based, you're an idiot.





ETM said:


> Im totally in control, whats the issue? I can use an edge at any time if I need to.


You're clearly not understanding the concept. It's not about engaging an edge like carving. You need to put pressure to one side, even if its the slightest bit. You're probably not even aware you're doing this but if you're not then somehow you've figured out how to defy physics.. Or you're just sloppy


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## Rookie09

ETM said:


> Im totally in control, whats the issue? I can use an edge at any time if I need to.


that's my point. you actually have ZERO control unless you actually are pressuring an edge. so either you're pressuring an edge slightly or you're not going to be in control.


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## ETM

East§ide said:


> You're clearly not understanding the concept. It's not about engaging an edge like carving. You need to put pressure to one side, even if its the slightest bit. You're probably not even aware you're doing this but if you're not then somehow you've figured out how to defy physics.. Or you're just sloppy


First up you might need to put pressure one one side to not catch an edge, I was like that for years so I know exactly what you are talking about but what you are not hearing is that I have learned to be able to ride completely flat based and I dont think im any kind of super badass snowboard guru / physics defying athlete lol. 
Im talking no edge, no edge pressure, its like carrying your momentum across a flat box, people can learn to do that so I dont see why you cant accept that a person could learn to do the same on snow.

Arguing asbout this rediculous.


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## ETM

Rookie09 said:


> that's my point. you actually have ZERO control unless you actually are pressuring an edge. so either you're pressuring an edge slightly or you're not going to be in control.


I agree, sometimes you just dont need to guide the board, the mountain will push you where it wants. You follow the same path a ball would if it were rolled down the same slope.
When you need to make a correction you can apply pressure to or engage an edge.


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## Rookie09

ETM said:


> I agree, sometimes you just dont need to guide the board, the mountain will push you where it wants. You follow the same path a ball would if it were rolled down the same slope.
> When you need to make a correction you can apply pressure to or engage an edge.


you can't compare a ball with a snowboard. if you want to let mountain push you where it wants to, be my guest. just know that either you aren't completely flat basing or you will catch an edge big time eventually. that's really all there is to it.


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## unsunken

ETM said:


> First up you might need to put pressure one one side to not catch an edge, I was like that for years so I know exactly what you are talking about but what you are not hearing is that I have learned to be able to ride completely flat based and I dont think im any kind of super badass snowboard guru / physics defying athlete lol.
> Im talking no edge, no edge pressure, its like carrying your momentum across a flat box, people can learn to do that so I dont see why you cant accept that a person could learn to do the same on snow.
> 
> Arguing asbout this rediculous.


I also used to be pretty good at riding flat-based. Doesn't work everywhere and doesn't work well in choppy conditions. I'd still occasionally catch an edge, but my board was soft enough and I was used to the feeling enough that I could correct it and wouldn't fall. Ungraceful? Certainly when I had to make corrections. Doable? In the right conditions. I don't do it anymore though, since we actually get snow out west that would cause constant edge catching. That and after taking a snowboarding hiatus, my reflexes aren't what they used to be.


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## ETM

Rookie09 said:


> you can't compare a ball with a snowboard. if you want to let mountain push you where it wants to, be my guest. just know that either you aren't completely flat basing or you will catch an edge big time eventually. that's really all there is to it.


ignorance is bliss


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## East§ide

This is how that explanation reads to me :


I ride sloppy and without control and let the board steer me and then then I realize I need to get control I use an edge. You know when I ride flat based? When I'm tired and riding sloppy. It's basically like you're pressing the gas pedal on your car with your hands off the wall and grabbing the wheel right before you crash. It's a good thing no one drives that way. 

Whatever works for you. It sounds like you let the board steer you . I'd try and break that habit.. There's absolutely no use for it


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## ETM

unsunken said:


> I also used to be pretty good at riding flat-based. Doesn't work everywhere and doesn't work well in choppy conditions. I'd still occasionally catch an edge, but my board was soft enough and I was used to the feeling enough that I could correct it and wouldn't fall. Ungraceful? Certainly when I had to make corrections. Doable? In the right conditions. I don't do it anymore though, since we actually get snow out west that would cause constant edge catching. That and after taking a snowboarding hiatus, my reflexes aren't what they used to be.


Thank you brother! I was being tagged teamed there by some guys who clearly have not developed the board control and reflex reaction it takes to be able to truely flat base.
A mistake is not a mistake if you realise its about to happen and make a correction before it kicks your ass.


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## timmytard

East§ide said:


> I think you THINK you're flat basing but I'd be willing to bet money that you're not.


I'm sure he'll take that bet, count me in as well.:thumbsup:
I need some cash too.

I flat base all the time, I just get a little bit lower than normal & let my feet & ankles turn to jelly.

It would be the same as if you had a board & let it go on its own.
Sure it bounces around a little bit, but @ no time is it on edge for more than a fraction of a second because nothing is keeping pressure on the edge.

It's just something you will develop with time.

If I want to go fast, it's flat base time.:bowdown:

I've gone in a few Chinese Downhill races, if you can't ride flat based?
You're in the back half of the pack. 
I'll see ya when you get to the bottom:eusa_clap:

The guy who wins, was on his edge the least amount of time.
Unlike Boardercross, the Chinese Downhill is about picking the right line.
The straightest line wins.

Money please.:yahoo:
Pay-Pal or Money order?



TT


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## ETM

East§ide said:


> This is how that explanation reads to me :
> 
> 
> I ride sloppy and without control and let the board steer me and then then I realize I need to get control I use an edge. You know when I ride flat based? When I'm tired and riding sloppy. It's basically like you're pressing the gas pedal on your car with your hands off the wall and grabbing the wheel right before you crash. It's a good thing no one drives that way.
> 
> Whatever works for you. It sounds like you let the board steer you . I'd try and break that habit.. There's absolutely no use for it


Dude you need to chill. Did I say I ride like that all day? Um no. I just said I can and you got panty knots. The fact is I can and it does have some uses being able to do it, I cant even remember the last time I caught an edge and I ride fast with edges tuned very aggressively.


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## ETM

LOL TT you nailed it. 
Dude is just ignorant and thinks he has mastered the riding of snowboards when he clearly hasnt.


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## jtg

Haha I see this is a controversial topic!

The debate about whether or not you are truly ever flat basing is semi-legitimate, but the "no true snowboarder would ever do this" comments we can do without I think. 

It's obviously not physics defying to do it. On a perfectly flat slope with a perfectly balanced snowboard and perfect snow, aimed perfectly down the hill, the snowboard will go down without catching an edge. Whether it's practical to do this in the real world, and for how long, I'm not qualified to say.

I'm a little skeptical of the school of thought that people who are "flat basing" are always on some edge, even if only slightly, but maybe that is the case. The main reason I am skeptical is because I've seen them do this on the hill in a straight line and I've seen the tracks it left. Favoring any edge will cause drift. I didn't actually measure, so maybe they drift ever so slightly proportionate to them using an edge ever so slightly, but it sure seems like people have periods of flat base riding as appropriate.



Snowolf said:


> As for bordercross, except when popping off of the lip of a jump, bordercross racers are generally carving. A carved turn will actually accelerate the rider where as a flat based skidding turn slows the rider. To win, these guys want speed and are carving not flat basing.


In turns, yes, definitely they don't want skidding. However, during any flat sections, they want the most direct line possible. If they have a direct, optimal line for a section of the course, I can't imagine that they are going to deviate from that path whatsoever just to use an edge. The only way to go perfectly straight is to be flat. If you're turning at all, you don't want flat, as that will skid, as you say. But when going straight, flat is faster. Think about it, you have a direct line, you are going to turn or veer unnecessarily and waste precious tenths of a second to avoid an edge catch? Gold medal on the line?

I have no experience with that obviously, but thinking logically, observing them, and considering basic physics, you're saying they're never actually flat? If you are sure of that, I'll defer to your expertise, but that would definitely surprise me.


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## snowman55

I also flat base but for a different reason. I ride a lot on icy conditions (east coast night riding). Depeding on how bad the ice is, I feel more secure riding flat over ice than being on a dull edge over ice.


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## East§ide

ETM said:


> A mistake is not a mistake if you realise its about to happen and make a correction before it kicks your ass.


This is just a stupid statement. 

Mis•take

n.
1. An error or fault resulting from defective judgment, deficient knowledge, or carelessness.
2. A misconception or misunderstanding.

You can correct a mistake. It's still a mistake. 


ETM said:


> Dude you need to chill. Did I say I ride like that all day? Um no. I just said I can and you got panty knots. The fact is I can and it does have some uses being able to do it, I cant even remember the last time I caught an edge and I ride fast with edges tuned very aggressively.


I'm very chill. I don't give a shit how you ride, I just think that you're explanation is moronic. You've basically said multiple times that you let the board steer you wherever it wants and you just do damage control if it gets dangerous. I never claimed to be an expert rider, but if you're riding your board bombing a hill flat based, I can't in any way imagine a scenario in which you have ANY control unless the surface is perfectly flat and perfectly straight. As far as I know, this doesn't exist in nature. Make a film of yourself doing this and prove me wrong. 
I wasn't trying to argue with you, idc how you ride.

I defer to SnoWolf.. He knows alot more about this than many of us. I can't see how it's practical to ride like that.


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## timmytard

ETM said:


> LOL TT you nailed it.
> Dude is just ignorant and thinks he has mastered the riding of snowboards when he clearly hasnt.


That's funny, I started typing before I read your "ball rolling down the hill" analogy:thumbsup:

Which is pretty much the same as letting your board go free on its own, it follows the contours of the land. Just like a ball would:thumbsup:

Fuck we're smart:bowdown:, & apparently we can ride a snowboard fairly well too:yahoo:

I don't know how long you've been riding?:dunno:
But I got 25 years & between ETM & I it's gotta be close to 50 years experience or more saying this.

We are right:cheeky4:

Thank you, come again.


TT


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## Rookie09

snowman55 said:


> I also flat base but for a different reason. I ride a lot on icy conditions (east coast night riding). Depeding on how bad the ice is, I feel more secure riding flat over ice than being on a dull edge over ice.


ice is completely different. unless your board has extreme traction I'd advise flat basing. and i'm not saying it's impossible to flat base. i'm saying that if you do it frequently for several seconds at a time, it's not very smart and you will catch an edge.

you are probably very slightly pressuring your edge while you flat base anyways just like driving a car on the highway. you always move your wheel very slightly to avoid drifting and correct the wind's effects. in the same way, you always slightly adjust pressure on an edge while flat basing for any considerable period of time.


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## timmytard

Snowolf said:


> This argument comes up all of the time and it is retarded. People like Timmytard and ETM are making absolutist statement that flat basing is always faster. People who say that carving is always faster are equally incorrect. The absolute truth here is it depends!
> 
> Come ride heavy wet Cascade powder that has baked in the sun all afternoon and is transitioning into corn. I can garantee that carving on edge is faster than flat basing because this slop is sticky as glue. The water content in this snow creates such incredible surface tension that a flat base gets stuck to it like a sweating glass to a glass table even with a structured base.
> 
> Now with packed powder, it is really going to depend on the base and wax being used as well as snow conditions. A guy with a sintered base with the right wax for the temperature is going to go faster on a flat base than on an edge. A guy with an extruded base or an unwaxed sintered base will be faster on his edge.
> 
> On ice, most everyone will go a little faster on a flat base than on edge.
> 
> In powder, no one rides on edge and flat based is the way to ride. Even so, board profile, base material, structure and wax will make a noticeable difference in glide on powder.
> 
> The bottom line here too is that with a few exceptions, the differences in speed and glide for the average non pro comp rider will be negligible so ride how you want as it really is not going to be a huge difference except in those special conditions like sticky snow.


I'm not saying it's always faster, my boards right now haven't been waxed in a while.

A few days ago, it was really warm in the sun, the shaded areas were slicker than snot.

I had to ride on edge in any area that the sun was shining on, if not, there was so much drag it felt like I was going to fly over the handlebars when I suddenly went from shade to sun.

But I will say when the conditions are perfect(which they never are) & your board is waxed & tuned perfectly.

The flat baser wins the race.


TT


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## timmytard

My position wasn't about which was faster?

Mine was more about the "You can't ever", "No one does" & "Your out of control, if you do"

About flat basing, cause all that is, is bull shit.


TT


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## Rookie09

timmytard said:


> My position wasn't about which was faster?
> 
> Mine was more about the "You can't ever", "No one does" & "Your out of control, if you do"
> 
> About flat basing, cause all that is, is bull shit.
> 
> 
> TT


if you are flat basing, you are "out of control" until you re-engage an edge. simply because you can't control a board without its edge.


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## East§ide

I don't care about this argument anymore, but I am consistently amazed at the low level of intelligence on this forum sometimes.

Your theory may be correct, but your explanations are assanine. It is a fundamental truth that to control the board you need an edge. (Maybe the exception is if you ride by simply muscling the board around..but even then an edge catch is almost inevitable)
You also contradict yourself in the same sentence .. "When conditions are perfect (which they never are)..." - wouldn't that make your point completely...pointless? 

Thank you, come again. Goodnight


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## timmytard

Rookie09 said:


> if you are flat basing, you are "out of control" until you re-engage an edge. simply because you can't control a board without its edge.


I may not be in total control, but gravity is, & I understand how gravity works

I know where the board is going to go, before it does.:bowdown:

That my friend, is being in control.

I can read the contour of the land, so I know when I'm going to need to be in control. 

That's when I carve:yahoo:


TT


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## jtg

Also, open shoulders, not parallel over board!

Also, riding in the back seat while flat!

Everyone has conflicting advice on this :laugh:


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## ETM

timmytard said:


> I may not be in total control, but gravity is, & I understand how gravity works
> 
> I know where the board is going to go, before it does.:bowdown:
> 
> That my friend, is being in control.
> 
> I can read the contour of the land, so I know when I'm going to need to be in control.
> 
> That's when I carve:yahoo:
> 
> 
> TT


Truth right here.
Those who know, know. Those who dont say its not possible.

You could say its more than being in control of your board, its being in control of your environment. Just thinking about your edges is a 2 dimentional take on the big picture.


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## ETM

Snowolf said:


> Is flat basing to make it across a flat section or build up speed to make it up a hill appropriate? I say yes it is but a prudent rider uses this as a tool with a specific purpose. .


This is exactly how I use it.

And sometimes for fun, just to give myself a rush on a 50m wide perfcely groomed run in japan with no tracks and nobody on it.


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## East§ide

ETM said:


> Truth right here.
> Those who know, know. Those who dont say its not possible.
> 
> You could say its more than being in control of your board, its being in control of your environment.


Another unbelievably stupid statement. You can control your environment like you can control the weather. 

At least just say " I ride flat based and I swear by it " than coming up with stupid statement after stupid statement.

Oh and that is NOT how you said you use it. You said you bomb runs flat based .


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## ETM

Do you want to watch some of my videos and see that I dont get around flat basing everywhere? Will that shut you up?


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## ETM

East§ide said:


> Another unbelievably stupid statement. You can control your environment like you can control the weather.
> 
> At least just say " I ride flat based and I swear by it " than coming up with stupid statement after stupid statement.
> 
> Oh and that is NOT how you said you use it. You said you bomb runs flat based .


I refer you to my original post



ETM said:


> I flatbase a lot. I do it on flat runouts so I maintain speed and I also do it *sometimes* on big groomers just to see how fast I can go and I quite enjoy the feeling.
> Its definately not a technical move but it is a part of snowboarding that if you dont master you will get caught out sooner or later either with a scorpion or not making it through a flat runout because you washed off your speed by using an edge.
> I also do it at the end of the day when Im physically spent and cbfd carving, I just want to ride powder stashes


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## Rookie09

ETM said:


> Dude please.
> You think your posting but maybe youre not LOL. I would love to take your money but for geographical reasons it will never happen unfortunately
> 
> *I can flat base at maximum speed without even going near an edge*, I fly past everyone on the mountain when Im doing it. Its just something I can do.
> 
> My edges are flat on the bottom and 88 on the side too, sharp like a razor blade so I kinda know when I engage one.


you also wrote this


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## ETM

East§ide said:


> Another unbelievably stupid statement. You can control your environment like you can control the weather.
> 
> .


Ok poor choice of words on my behalf. It may not be controlling your environment, more using it to your advantage by knowing how to read it rather than ignoring your environment and only using your direct input to the board as a means of guiding you from the top to the bottom.


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## ETM

Rookie09 said:


> you also wrote this


And its true jerry. I can. You dont know me, you dont know where or how I ride yet you think your life experience has armed you with the knowledge to tell me I am wrong. 
I am simply trying to point out to you that there may be more to this than you realise. 
I know exactly what you are trying to say, I have experienced it. You have no idea what I am trying to say, you have not experienced it.


----------



## Rookie09

ETM said:


> And its true jerry. I can. You dont know me, you dont know where or how I ride yet you think your life experience has armed you with the knowledge to tell me I am wrong.
> I am simply trying to point out to you that there may be more to this than you realise.
> I know exactly what you are trying to say, I have experienced it. You have no idea what I am trying to say, you have not experienced it.


even if i give you %100 benefit of the doubt and say that whatever the fastest you've ever ridden you can sustain it while flat-basing, your comment is still wrong. "without ever going near an edge"???? sorry but at least one edge is ALWAYS touching the ground unless you're sitting on top of a ridge of snow that's less than a foot wide. you are always near an edge.


----------



## MistahTaki

whats your point rookie? flat basing is possible. end of story.


----------



## ETM

I may not be the worlds best wordsmith but you know what I mean. 
Im dead serious about this lol. I can point my board down a run and go straight for as long as the undulations in the terrain allow completely flat on my base. I now realise it is hard for some of you guys to believe but its true

Rodney mullin on a skateboard can do a kickflip, knock the board back the other way mid air, land on it upside down and slide along a box then do a 360 flip out and ride away. Sounds fucking impossible, but he does it.


----------



## Argo

I agree with etm and TT. I flatbase alot here. It takes practice and alot of riding flat to get used to it. Its a lot faster on flats and cat tracks. Its faster on a soft surface. On chucky wet snow am edge is alot smoother and faster than flat base. I was riding with a few instructors earlier this season and they were shocked how comfortable and fast I was on a flat base, they couldn't or didnt like doing it. I can ride full speed flat base also.

Making blanket statements either way is retarded but I think eastside is the only one that made aa blanket statement with regards to one form of riding over the other.


----------



## Rookie09

ETM said:


> I may not be the worlds best wordsmith but you know what I mean.
> Im dead serious about this lol. I can point my board down a run and go straight for as long as the undulations in the terrain allow completely flat on my base. I now realise it is hard for some of you guys to believe but its true
> 
> Rodney mullin on a skateboard can do a kickflip, knock the board back the other way mid air, land on it upside down and slide along a box then do a 360 flip out and ride away. Sounds fucking impossible, but he does it.


I'm not saying that you can't do that. I can point my board straight down the hill and ride it as long as I want to as well. that being said, I always keep an edge slightly pressured so I can engage at a moments notice. I'm also not saying that it's impossible to do it your way as well. If you want to have no edge pressure, no tendency to engage a specific edge at a moment notice, and you can want to let the mountain take you where it wants, then props to you. But sooner or later, the mountain might decide it doesn't like you anyway and will knock you down. If that's the way you like it, then go ahead and ride that way. I'm not going to because if I'm going to get hurt, I'd rather do it while attempting something not so pointless.


----------



## ETM

Rookie09 said:


> . If that's the way you like it, then go ahead and ride that way. I'm not going to .



I honestly dont recall asking you to. 

I simply made a statement and in the short time since has been completely backed up by other members so perhaps you can understand there may be some truth to it.


----------



## jtg

Snowolf said:


> Additionally when advising others; especially new riders, veterans have a responsibility to give the best and safest advice so these riders progress safely and on a manner that allows them to develop these skills with the ability to handle it.


That's fine as long as it doesn't cross the line to giving false information. As I said, I scorpioned on a flat cat track, which I was flat basing on because you need speed, as you said.

I'm not looking for tips on how to wrecklessly bomb a run on a flat base. From my perspective, I can't even safely get speed to make it up a flat section on a flat base, yet I see others not only doing that regularly, but also bombing. Which suggests to me that it's possible to do reliably without spilling. That's the reason for the question.


----------



## Rookie09

jtg said:


> That's fine as long as it doesn't cross the line to giving false information. As I said, I scorpioned on a flat cat track, which I was flat basing on because you need speed, as you said.
> 
> I'm not looking for tips on how to wrecklessly bomb a run on a flat base. From my perspective, I can't even safely get speed to make it up a flat section on a flat base, yet I see others not only doing that regularly, but also bombing. Which suggests to me that it's possible to do reliably without spilling. That's the reason for the question.


To progress, you have to pressure an edge. Keep your knees bent in a dynamic stance so you're alert and always ready to correct if you need to. The more you do it the more comfortable you will get and you can then start to relax on it a bit more. If you to, you can move on to completely flat basing runs, but that is unnecessary for practical purposes. You probably won't be able to tell the difference in speed between using no edge and using slight pressure on an edge.


----------



## ETM

jtg said:


> That's fine as long as it doesn't cross the line to giving false information. As I said, I scorpioned on a flat cat track, which I was flat basing on because you need speed, as you said.
> 
> I'm not looking for tips on how to wrecklessly bomb a run on a flat base. From my perspective, I can't even safely get speed to make it up a flat section on a flat base, yet I see others not only doing that regularly, but also bombing. Which suggests to me that it's possible to do reliably without spilling. That's the reason for the question.


Its very hard to explain how its done, reading the terrain is key, you have to let it take you where it wants to and you have to know where its going to take you. You also have to be totally comfortable on your board and very loose with your body. Its not something that you can force yourself to learn but eventually it should come to you. I can flat base without even thinking about it these days.


----------



## jtg

jtg said:


> I'm not looking for tips on how to wrecklessly bomb a run on a flat base. ... I can't even safely get speed to make it up a flat section on a flat base ... That's the reason for the question.





Snowolf said:


> Is flat basing to make it across a flat section or build up speed to make it up a hill appropriate? I say yes it is but a prudent rider uses this as a tool with a specific purpose.





Snowolf said:


> Which is why in that post and others I have advised against it.


:icon_scratch:


----------



## Rookie09

yes you can flat base to make it across a flat section or build up speed. but you have to have excellent board control and be a very good rider to do this. which is why you should usually keep pressure on an edge. at LEAST while you are still working on getting across flats without catching an edge.


----------



## scotty100

I struggle with this too. On narrow cat tracks I try to keep a minimal edge without washing off speed but invariably I lose speed and struggle to get through. I'm always super wary of flat basing at slower speeds.


----------



## behi

Rookie09 said:


> if you are flat basing, you are "out of control" until you re-engage an edge. simply because you can't control a board without its edge.


You can use tiny amounts pressure/board twist to control the board (with the neutral position of the board being completely flat), no need to ever engage an edge (you can rip out the edge and it will still work fine). IMO, on good snow/packed powder, with a bit of experience, it is safe to run completely flat based. On hard stuff (where the board wouldn't leave a track), that doesn't work nearly as well.

I flat base quite a lot going 45mph and have a completely straight track that's 1 board width (trails having long flat or uphill sections). I've never caught an edge on good snow (knock on wood...).

On hard snow/hard pack, I rarely ride completely flat (use at least a bit of edge pressure). Yes, I have caught edges on hard stuff. The board is more likely to pivot and there is a lot less control response for small amounts of pressure/board twist.


----------



## behi

Snowolf said:


> There are 4 board performance concepts we use as riders. They are twist, tilt, pivot and pressure. Just like riding a box, we use no edging movements to flat base so that takes away twist and tilt. Without those two, we cannot change our direction of travel (turn)


I disagree with you on that (depending on the snow conditions). As long as the board sinks in slightly (snow reasonably soft), twist works fine for small amounts of steering (without edge engagement).


----------



## jtg

Snowolf said:


> I am not going to play games with you here. Now you seem to be nit picking to argue a point. My answer to your question was straight forward. Flat base as a technique with a purpose such as making it across a flat area or up a hill. Until you have improved as a competent rider, try to avoid doing it for long stretches. The fact that you ate shit is a result of you not having the technique mastered and I was trying to help you. Take the advice and progress into being able to do it right and know when you can or need to or don't and keep eating shit; your call.


No, sorry, genuinely confused. You basically said not to do it, then you said it has its place for those situations, then I said I intended to use it for those situations, then you said not to do it again. Now you say I don't have the technique, and that is why I ate shit, which I acknowledge, and is the reason I'm asking. 

*SO WHAT IS THE DAMN TECHNIQUE TO DO IT IN APPROPRIATE SITUATIONS WITHOUT EATING SHIT?* :yahoo:

All of the debate in this thread is about whether or not you should, when you should, whether its even possible, as well as a bunch of insults. No one except wrathfuldiety and ETM have even tried to explain the technique. Edit: And now, you, have finally tried explaining the technique in your last post. Thanks. That's all I was asking. And behi added some tips too.

To recap:

-Keep shoulders aligned (boarder cross guys seem to break this rule the whole time with open shoulders, so kinda confused, but ok)
-Easier to do in softer snow than harder snow
-Easier to do at higher speeds than slow on a cat track/flat
-Keep ankles loose
-Auto-correcting micro-adjustments via pressure changes come naturally with practice
-Keep weight forward (both intuitive and confusing, because you don't catch edges if way in the back seat, like tail pressing/buttering)
-Use counter-rotation with any available body part if the back wants to swing out and catch
-True flatbasing is a unicorn that only ETM and timmytard have seen
-ETM and timmytard are sinners


----------



## behi

Snowolf said:


> As for the physics of how it is possible, the gyroscopic effect known as rigidity in space from forward inertia is a powerfully stabilizing force and an object like a snowboard and rider in motion resists motion in other planes.


That doesn't make sense. For a gyroscopic effect you need a gyroscope - something that rotates. There is no stabilization from inertia against rotation or movement in other planes whatsoever.

If I were to speculate, I would say the extra stability at higher speed comes from less rotation per distance traveled (if there is some disturbance), so any pivoting has a better chance of auto-correcting.


----------



## ETM

jtg said:


> -True flatbasing is a unicorn that only ETM and timmytard have seen
> -ETM and timmytard are sinners


LOL I love it


----------



## skip11

There you go video demonstration. I know the guy personally and ridden with him, he can flatbase while not going on an edge. He taught me just imagine your body being an arrow and just stand still. Imagine if you just let a snowboard go down a slope (with nobody standing on it), it will not catch an edge. Now add a person on the snowboard and just get into an athletic stance bend your knees and ankle and don't make unnecessary movements with your upper or lower body.


----------



## behi

Snowolf said:


> I have mixed thoughts about this. In general I think we are splitting hairs here as the line between pressure and twist is fine and blurred. Is twist a cause or an effect? Answer is it is both. In the context we are using it, it is a result of pressure. So where does pressure end and tilt begin? Just my opinion here but when a rider applies enough pressure to start to torsionally twist the board, by definition it ceases to have a flat base ergo no longer "flat basing".
> 
> Twist can also be a cause. Increased twist leads to tilt; at least at one end of the board. In order to have twist, there is always some element of tilt otherwise, there isn't really any twist. I maintain my position that twist is not a part of flat basing rather pressure is. In soft snow, technically your edges are engaged when flat basing; both of them simultaneously since the entire board is below the surface.


Torsion/twist alone works (same amount of twist front/back) and it works without engaging the sidecut. Unfortunately, I don't have a board without sidecut. 

In the name of snowboarding science, I created a tiny 'board' with a twist (pun intended) from a rectangular strip of tinplate. Rice had to do as running surface; the board was dragged by putting a needle in a hole slightly forward of the center. The 'board' does indeed want to turn according to the twist - no sidecut needed. Pressure should be the same, front and back are twisted the same amount. (I verified that no off-center hole is the cause by twisting the 'board' the other way - it turns in the other direction.)


----------



## snowklinger

but what if I'm freebasing?


----------



## behi

Snowolf said:


> I get that but if you twist, the base is no long flat. The edge does not have to be engaged and is irrelevant. The base is not flat. Go ahead and twist the base on a box. Even though you never come close to actually tilting onto the edge, you will se daylight under some portion of a twisted base. My point remains valid that if you apply enough pressure to twist the base it is no longer truly flat ergo not truly flat basing. To truly flat base a board, use pivot and pressure not twist.


Ok. In my book it's close enough to flat and the twisting isn't used all the time, it's only used for small steering corrections. If the snow is soft, you won't see daylight. A very small amount of twist is enough.

If the snow is hard, I think what matters is that you are engaging the edge/sidecut.


----------



## wrathfuldeity

jtg said:


> *SO WHAT IS THE DAMN TECHNIQUE TO DO IT IN APPROPRIATE SITUATIONS WITHOUT EATING SHIT?* :yahoo:
> 
> All of the debate in this thread is about whether or not you should, when you should, whether its even possible, as well as a bunch of insults. No one except wrathfuldiety and ETM have even tried to explain the technique. Edit: And now, you, have finally tried explaining the technique in your last post. Thanks. That's all I was asking. And behi added some tips too.
> 
> To recap:
> 
> -Keep shoulders aligned (boarder cross guys seem to break this rule the whole time with open shoulders, so kinda confused, but ok)
> -Easier to do in softer snow than harder snow
> -Easier to do at higher speeds than slow on a cat track/flat
> -Keep ankles loose
> -Auto-correcting micro-adjustments via pressure changes come naturally with practice
> -Keep weight forward (both intuitive and confusing, because you don't catch edges if way in the back seat, like tail pressing/buttering)
> -Use counter-rotation with any available body part if the back wants to swing out and catch
> -True flatbasing is a unicorn that only ETM and timmytard have seen
> -ETM and timmytard are sinners


to get started, do it on gentle slopes and flat track areas then as you get more comfortable/confident with speed and slope. Learning to ride flat is most useful on long flat tracks and when you need to maintain speed to get up hill (terrain trap)....and to accelerate quickly or bomb.

its easy...just 3 things to get started
1...keep weight on the nose
2...make sure your shoulders, hips and arms/hands are closed/parallel (all body parts inside the cereal box)
3...netural stacked (ankles/hips/shoulders) stance with relaxed knees and loose ankles
Its learning to just trust the board and remained relaxed enough to absorb the little bumbs, ruts and stuff...if you are stiff you will get tossed around....you want to absorb. 

Good practice is to ride 1 footy as long as possible off a chair or on the bunny hill. If you put a 5 lb sand bag in the front binding and let it go....the board will generally flow down the fall line and will not catch an edge.


----------



## aiidoneus

My favorite part of this thread is that it took 9 pages to get about 3 decent posts for the op.

Summary:

- when flat basing don't be an asshat and run into people
- flat basing takes practice, and not always great to use it everywhere
- monkey's will kill their alpha leader if he is a bitch (read it in the news the other day)
- learn to use a bit edge when flat basing, even if you eventually don't always use this technique
- after 50-50s on a box, try some basic butters it will improve you awareness of the board
- we aren't skiers worrying about turns, but using an edge can be faster then trying to flat base to the bottom .. Sometimes .. Maybe most times .. Myth bust it
- 100% real east coast ice is not edge-able(it happens from time to time) it is like a 600m box, pick your line, avoid it if you can/want .. Or flat base it for a sweet ride.
- having an edge is not the only means of control .. Spinning in the air with no edge can still be controlled .. It is in the setup, similar with flat basing

Good thread :eusa_clap:


----------



## edlo

wrathfuldeity said:


> 1...keep weight on the nose


It only took 85 comments for JTG to get the answer on how to flat base. People seem more interested in fighting words than snowboarding advise. Somehow the topic of flat basing always gets heated.

I think people eat it hard when they stand up and relax and take the weight off their down hill leg to take a break. If any weight is off centered to the rear of the board, the tail will want to come around to either toe edge, scorpioned, or heel edge, WWF suplex. 

If your weight is toward the nose of the board, it is like gravity is pulling you, if it is towards the tail, it is like gravity is pushing you. For those that don't drive, if you pull a shopping cart with one hand, the cart will go straight, if you push a shopping cart with one hand it will want to turn unless you fight it. 

I've watch guys do "wheelie" on the tail of their board and not eat it, so I know that riding the tail flat is possible. 

I was lost with the whole physics, inertia, gyroscopic, momentum, rigid body discussion.


----------



## wrathfuldeity

edlo said:


> It only took 85 comments for JTG to get the answer on how to flat base. People seem more interested in fighting words than snowboarding advise. Somehow the topic of flat basing always gets heated.
> 
> I think people eat it hard when they stand up and relax and take the weight off their down hill leg to take a break. If any weight is off centered to the rear of the board, the tail will want to come around to either toe edge, scorpioned, or heel edge, WWF suplex.
> 
> If your weight is toward the nose of the board, it is like gravity is pulling you, if it is towards the tail, it is like gravity is pushing you. For those that don't drive, if you pull a shopping cart with one hand, the cart will go straight, if you push a shopping cart with one hand it will want to turn unless you fight it.
> 
> I've watch guys do "wheelie" on the tail of their board and not eat it, so I know that riding the tail flat is possible.
> 
> I was lost with the whole physics, inertia, gyroscopic, momentum, rigid body discussion.


I noted it in a round about way at comment 6...get out of the back seat...but I learnt some stuff abt space rigidity...its been one of the better discussions about flat basing.


----------



## behi

edlo said:


> It only took 85 comments for JTG to get the answer on how to flat base. People seem more interested in fighting words than snowboarding advise. Somehow the topic of flat basing always gets heated.


Splitting hairs seems like a useful exercise in this thread, since it's clear from the discussion that different people have different definitions of what 'real' flat-basing is.

Looking at the video posted earlier, demonstrating 'real' flat-basing, it looks to me like that guy is actually shifting the weight a little between toe and heel edge.


----------



## timmytard

Looking at the video posted earlier, demonstrating 'real' flat-basing, it looks to me like that guy is actually shifting the weight a little between toe and heel edge.[/QUOTE]

Probably so that he can stay flat based:cheeky4:


TT


----------



## trapper

Yes you can see right away a very obvious adjustment he makes to avoid his tail coming around on him. Around the 25 second mark...


----------



## danm

skip11 said:


> There you go video demonstration. I know the guy personally and ridden with him, he can flatbase while not going on an edge. He taught me just imagine your body being an arrow and just stand still. Imagine if you just let a snowboard go down a slope (with nobody standing on it), it will not catch an edge. Now add a person on the snowboard and just get into an athletic stance bend your knees and ankle and don't make unnecessary movements with your upper or lower body.


Funny, I thought that was a chick?!?!?!? 

danm


----------



## jtg

Snowolf said:


> Yeah, I NEVER give anyone any advice in here.....
> 
> Might want to read through the threads in here before making a comment buddy. People did answer his question, he just didnt like the answers they gave as you appearanly dont either. You might also note, that when Wrathfuldiety and others actually gave him answers to improve, he ignored them and started arguing about boardercross.


wtf?

No. Wrathfuldeity answered and I read it. I didn't ignore him, and acknowledged that he answered it in a recent comment. The thread took off with dumb comments about "flat basing isn't snowboarding" and I argued THOSE comments a little in the beginning, using boarder cross as one example.



Snowolf said:


> When you read that, people are not overly motivated to answer his question. Does not mean that people didnt give him their honest answers. I actually answered the guy`s question in another thread so I addressed the issue that was raised about it A: being possible and B: being faster.


I didn't ask it in another thread. You got confused and then gave me shit for ignoring an answer you never gave because you mixed up your threads. And your comment about using a box didn't come until AFTER all that. And I haven't even said anything since that part.



> You dont seem to understand that there is difference between fighting and discussing. Behi and I were discussing, not fighting, technique from an instructor perspective. This is also a subforum for instructors and coaches to discuss theory and coaching techniques after all. Sorry if a little high school level physics is too confusing to you. As instructors, I realize we need to dumb it down for the general public but we also use this subforum to discuss topics at an instructor level. But since I dont ever help anyone here, I can go now and stop wasting my time trying to help folks improve their riding ....:dunno:


I don't think anyone is saying *you* never help anyone. You've been very helpful. In general though this thread was a shit show, and there was plenty of fighting. Not from you. Except this comment where you call me out, I don't know what that is for really.

I did briefly question one comment by you saying boarder cross has no flat basing and only carving, which I did in a respectful way, and acknowledged your expertise. Which was kinda besides the point anyway, I was just finding legitimate examples because some posters, and even you at one time, said it should never be done (but you since cleared that up).

And regarding dumbing things down...I don't know who you think is on the other end of these keyboards, but you might be surprised at our ability to digest 6th grade physics, among other things 

Spring comes along and ruins our snow and makes everyone PMS I guess.:thumbsup:


----------



## aiidoneus

Snowolf said:


> Yeah, I NEVER give anyone any advice in here.....
> 
> Might want to read through the threads in here before making a comment buddy. People did answer his question, he just didnt like the answers they gave as you appearanly dont either. You might also note, that when Wrathfuldiety and others actually gave him answers to improve, he ignored them and started arguing about boardercross. When you read that, people are not overly motivated to answer his question. Does not mean that people didnt give him their honest answers. I actually answered the guy`s question in another thread so I addressed the issue that was raised about it A: being possible and B: being faster. We have 3 of these flat basing threads going at the moment and I already stated how to maintain a flat base using jibbing a box as an example. You dont seem to understand that there is difference between fighting and discussing. Behi and I were discussing, not fighting, technique from an instructor perspective. This is also a subforum for instructors and coaches to discuss theory and coaching techniques after all. Sorry if a little high school level physics is too confusing to you. As instructors, I realize we need to dumb it down for the general public but we also use this subforum to discuss topics at an instructor level. But since I dont ever help anyone here, I can go now and stop wasting my time trying to help folks improve their riding ....:dunno:


I'm not trying to bust your balls .. I said about 3 decent posts ... it was an exaggeration. Not saying there isn't good advice here. I was just jokin around

P.S. I agreed with your advice more or less


----------



## jtg

Snowolf said:


> my post was directed at Edlo not you who didnt understand the discussion I was having with Behi.


Yeah, but when you shit on me like that, expect a reply anyway :thumbsup:


----------



## edlo

Snowolf said:


> my post was directed at Edlo not you who didnt understand the discussion I was having with Behi.


My sarcasm was poorly delivered , didn't mean to offend. I do find your advice useful, sorry.


----------



## Argo

Why is this thread continuing? Has it not served it's purpose? Seems like a waste of argument between members and mod over something pretty stupid.


----------



## Argo

Snowolf said:


> An you are reading why?.....:cheeky4:


Yeah, it's unfortunate.... Sprained my ankle the other day when I lost my edge on some ice going full speed, shoulda stayed flat based..... Now I gotta actually read threads rather than quick replys while on the gondola or lift for the next day or so.


----------



## jtg

Technically, one cannot truly freebase, because complete combustion is impossible to achieve in all but perfect conditions. The result will be byproducts such as carbon and various oxides.


----------



## FireStarter451

*Five Stars*

Best combination of entertaining and informative. Really, great thread! :thumbsup:


----------



## aiidoneus

Snowolf said:


> My tone was sarcasm dude.


I'm not your dude, bro :laugh:


----------



## aiidoneus

In hindsight, if we took these discussions to an actual hill ... we would probably be the biggest gapers in the world .. 

"I'm flat basing" 

"No your not, that was totally 174 yoctonewtons of force applied to your toe edge"

Not that I am against them or anything


----------



## scotty100

I suggest we develop a forum-approved definition of flatbasing to aid with these discussions. My suggestions:

_flatbasing_ verb

a. when a board is flat <I was seriously _flatbasing_ my ass off and reached 50mph>
b. when a board is flat but also on edge, slightly <I was _flatbasing_ my ass off and reached 50mph, dude that's not _flatbasing_, you were on your edge>


----------



## behi

Snowolf said:


> [...] noticed no difference between flat based, slight edge pressure or carving. In each case, the glide was the same as far as I could measure.


My testing suggests (hiking GPS that gives highly accurate speed data), that edge pressure generally doesn't make a difference (as long as the board is still going straight). In cold, fresh, non-icy stuff and wet snow it's even helpful to use a significant amount of pressure, so that only part of the running surface makes full contact.

When carving, even if you have the same glide/speed, you are not going straight and have to cover a longer distance. So if the goal is to make a flat/uphill section, it's counter-productive.


----------



## East§ide

Snowolf said:


> So to revisit this. While riding today I was thinking about this whole argument and what I actually do and how much difference it makes. What I noticed is that even though my base is flat visually, I am definitely pressuring one edge or the other at all times. Granted, it is very light pressure but it is there. I deliberately went totally flat like I would on a box and even though I was stacked and aligned, the board definitely picked up wobble from the uneven snow on the long flat cat track that is the run out for Heather Canyon at Mt. Hood Meadows. Every little bump, dip and rut affected the board`s trajectory in some fashion. I was able to always make tiny corrections to keep it going flat and straight but it was a total concentration kind of task.
> 
> When riding as I normally do with just a bit of edge pressure (not tilt) The board handled so much better and the ride was just easier. So, how did this affect board performance? Well, the snow was firm hardpack that was just softening up from the afternoon sun and was not noticeably sticky. My glide up a short uphill stretch was no different whether I was holding a slight bit of stabilizing edge presser or letting it go totally flat. Maintaining a carve with the edge actually lifted, did mean that I did not coast to the top however.
> 
> Later, I tried this in the refrozen hardpack and noticed no difference between flat based, slight edge pressure or carving. In each case, the glide was the same as far as I could measure. Now of course I wax and it does make a difference in our snow.
> 
> So, for me, I personally in my riding, am going to continue to ride "flat based: while deliberately hold just a tad of edge pressure. Any loss of glide performance is a small price to pay for the extra margin of control I feel. Because I firmly believe this method is safer than trying to maintain a true 100% flat base, I am going to recommend using light edge pressure; especially with beginners and intermediates. Others can do it any way they like and if they are comfortable being truly flat based, that`s their call. I am going with flat but pressured.


this is basically me entire argument. there is really no reason to sacrifice the control you have for an almost immeasurable amount of additional glide or speed..and generally, you need to put pressure one way or the other to correct yourself if you are truly flat regardless.


----------



## Argo

Just for the he'll of it I was paying attention this morning on a hard icy groomed run. While flat based I almost always kept my front foot equal and but slight pressure on my rear foots toe or heel to keep from chattering too much.... No steering came from my rear foot pressure nor edge hold. It was simply keeping pressure across my board. 

Yesterday on the mid day spring slush it was equal pressure on both feet going down straight runs then full edge engage when turning...


----------



## Donutz

When I've paid attention to this, I've found that I'm using torsion on my board. I might be pressing all toe edge, then a moment later I'm toe on the front and heel on the back... It's all reflex too, so I'm just an observer.


----------



## East§ide

if im reading it right then what you guys are saying is that while you may be "flat based" there is some type of pressure going in one direction or another ...so youre never truly flat. does that make sense?


----------



## aiidoneus

It is impossible to have a perfectly flat base. The ground is uneven, the board is not perfect, the human body does not have the fine motor control to adjust pressure that precise. Now, a 50 micron section of graphene (single layer of carbon atoms) that can be damn flat!

The true problem is what we seem to term 'flat-base', I bet if you did a quick survey on the hill, most people would consider even having a slight edge flat-based ... but hell, most people think they are carving.

It's also not like there is an international snowboard standards commission that decides this stuff, cause most people don't really care that much. I think most people would accept that flat basing is where the bulk of your base is in contact with the snow and you are actively trying to keep it flat.


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## CassMT

if you think too much about it, you are def gonna eat shit


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## ItchEtrigR

If your straight your mostly on edge, a flat board has no edge control, and why the all the fuss about flat basing it? We pretty much all learned the technique while still beginners trying to get over that flat spot after that hill we couldn't commit to.


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## East§ide

Mostly because people keep insisting that they ride completely flat based with zero pressure on either edge lol


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## karkis

aw jeez... hate to be 'that guy'...
but i like riding flat based. its fast, its fun... its kinda like the diff b/w 180s frontside and blind side, it really feels better (to me) to go blind...
im not saying i ride long distances w/out pressing either edge at all but i do press hard and flat with my front foot and, as little as possible, lightly / occasionally use my back foot for little corrections
the key is keeping your nose pointed in the direction of travel, if your board is pointed where your going its not possible to catch an edge
yah the ground can push you around and if you don't anticipate it you might pivot too far, catch and scorpion, but if your watching your path and you know how gravity will affect your momentum then its totally reasonable to ride pretty much flat az possible, with only a little bit of micro adjustments.
i think its like landing blind airs cuz yah you gotta trust the board and momentum, it does feel like you give up some control, just relax and let gravity take charge, if theres any slope you'll end up pointed strait down the fall line and thats fun!
or if its a flat cat track, like the traverses around RMR, you go further faster, dont need to unstrap to skate 50 metres like the rest of the jibbers.


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## East§ide

I know it's just nit picking but technically if you're putting pressure on the front of your board wouldn't it mean that the back of your board is raised slightly? I do this also, but I don't consider it being totally flat based ... Just playing devils advocate


----------



## karkis

East§ide said:


> if you're putting pressure on the front of your board wouldn't it mean that the back of your board is raised slightly?


noooo.... not so much, pressure on my front foot, yah, like 60% to 40 on the back foot, the boards all on the snow, just lighter on the back so the inputs can be feathered lightly when needed but yah the main focus is on pressing the flat front foot...



East§ide said:


> I don't consider it being totally flat based ...


i thought you didnt consider totally flat based to be practicable anyway!

j/k i agree its semantics but yah no there is for sure a difference b/w slightly holding an edge, and pressing flat as ya can and letting the terrain and gravity move you, just adjusting to keep the nose pointing strait


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## Argo

East§ide said:


> I know it's just nit picking but technically if you're putting pressure on the front of your board wouldn't it mean that the back of your board is raised slightly? I do this also, but I don't consider it being totally flat based ... Just playing devils advocate



Your obviously one of those guys that will argue about anything just to not admit that your wrong or unable to accomplish what your arguing about....


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## ETM

Cant believe he started again. :dunno:


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## behi

Snowolf said:


> Personally, I have found the discussion thought prolong and generally a great catylist to take a really close look at my own riding and do some self MA.


'thought provoking'?

+1

When I try to self-analyze, I frequently discover that what I think I'm doing isn't exactly what I'm doing. I may think I'm doing everything right, but in reality some details are off. Discussions like this help paying close attention to all the details.


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## East§ide

Argo said:


> Your obviously one of those guys that will argue about anything just to not admit that your wrong or unable to accomplish what your arguing about....


How would I NOT be able to accomplish it? Ever watch videos of people putting their babies on snowboards? That's what the babies do.. Ride flat and go wherever the lay of the land takes them. Riding flat is the easiest thing to do.. I also think it is moronic and will eventually lead to an edge catch UNLESS you make corrections by applying pressure to a specific area of the board..and if that's the case, then what's the point ? You're obviously one of those guys that can't understand what devils advocate means and also can't understand the purpose of having a discussion ESPECIALLY since someone else (SnoWolf) posted back on his experiences and refueled the conversation. 


ETM said:


> Cant believe he started again. :dunno:


Dude, shut the fuck up. I'm contributing to a conversation, and I'm sorry if you're such a douchebag that you can't deal with it. 


For a bunch of snowboarders, there are SO many whiny bitches on here.


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## Deacon

It's funny that snowolf said that, because I did the same thing Friday. There was some pretty long, only mildly graded run outs, and I found myself thinking about this thread and really paying attention to what my board was doing. I pretty much had the same conclusion as Eastside and Snowolf. One CAN ride completely flat, but the board will get a little squirrely if you don't use pressure to ccontrol it. To somebody watching, it would appear the board was completely flat. I think if I had been distracted I would have scorpioned as well. If I was to squat all the way down, lowering my center of gravity, that would certainly help, but I think lots of people, when flatbasing, stand pretty much straight up.


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## Efilnikufesin

East§ide said:


> Dude, shut the fuck up. I'm contributing to a conversation, and I'm sorry if you're such a douchebag that you can't deal with it.
> 
> 
> *For a bunch of snowboarders, there are SO many whiny bitches on here. *


LOL, so ironic.


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## East§ide

Snowolf said:


> Whoa dude! No need for that tone and no place for personal attacks in this subforum. ETM has strong opinions as do you, but his comment was not an attack on you; it was his exasperation over a topic I guess he feels people should stop talking about. A position I disagree with and I agree with your position about riding flat but please, lets keep this friendly bro....
> 
> And just to pass on my position about topics in general. If you are tired of the topic being discussed, politely excuse yourself from the conversation but don`t comment about others wishing to continue the discussion. It is rude to try to brow beat others into stopping the conversation.


The fact that he's now contributing nothing and just posting that I needed to keep going mixed with Argos comment could easily be considered a personal attack. I was having a mature discussion which seems to be above some people's heads. I understand your point but at some point they are just as guilty as me. It's annoying to wake up to people bitching about me calmly contributing to a topic .


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## Argo

Your trying to prove something that your wrong about. There are multiple people that have told you tha they can flat base. Your just mincing words to try to be right about something you can't do well. Flatbasing at 50-60 mph isn't easy to do on a regular basis safely without riding a lot and having good overall board control. Ive ridden over 100 days this season so far and flat base daily at least a few times. The OP asked about flat basing and he was answered but you just wanna keep saying your right, it's not possible.... Sorry, your wrong.


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## East§ide

Do you understand what devils advocate means ? Also, I never said it can't be done. I just said it makes no sense. I'm allowed to have an opinion, FWIW, I didn't restart this conversation.. I'm just trying to add food for thought. Multiple people have also commented that after going out and paying attention, they DO tend to at least apply a little pressure to one edge or other . You need to relax man, it's the Internet. The entire point of a forum is discussion and debate .


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## neni

Funny... we had the flatbase discussion only yesterday at the aprés-boarding (to avoid further pettifoggery: I'm aware that COMLPETE flatbase is as impossible as drawing a PERFECT straight line, even if you use a sharp pencil and a ruler, but I guess the intention of the OP was not to discuss physics ). So for the purists: lets assume that if I use the term "flatbase", I mean as flatbased as physically possible with a moving object on a never complete even underground 

A guy of the pack (riding a Custom X) stated he never flatbases, cause it's too dangerous whereas my husband claims to do it very frequently, no matter what board he's riding (both are riding 20years and ride like hell). I assume, they know what they're talking about and the quintessence for me is, that its a very personal decision.

I only flatbase longer stretches since this season (my 10th season in this resort). Never trusted the camber boards I rode so far enough. With the Flagship I ride now (its said to be a hybrid camber but actually its just flat between the feet :dunno I gradually got closer to flatbase longer stretches, cause it simply gave me the feeling that it's ok to do so. I guess, the board shape is an important variable. Sure, an expert might be able to savely flatbase every board, but thats again a puristic discussion. 

You shouldn't force yourself to flatbase. I'm not good in giving technical details... it should FEEL ok to do so (yeah... women and feelings, I know ) Began with only several meters to sound the reaction of the board and gradually increased. Now its about 20m flatbased - little adjust of direction - flat again. Always riding low and centered and very concentrated, feet relaxed but ready to react immediately, reading the terrain well in front of me and prepared to put a little pressure on an edge if the terrain changes. I only do it on runouts with good sight/overview and flat non chopped up snow to gain speed. 
Take it easy and dont rush.


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## Argo

Riding on a groom slope with 3" of light powder on top makes it easy. Im not mad about his point of view at all. Im sitting slope side in vail having lunch after a couple hours of flatbasing.


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## Casual

I love flat basing. Haha...


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## Donutz

Just an additional variable to throw into the fire is the question of how much fresh snow is on the ground. At one extreme you have the polished hardpack which is extremely squirrely, at the other extreme you're trying to "flatbase" through a foot of powder (beyond that even the quotes don't work). I think that a certain amount of fresh on top of the hardpack dampens the squirreliness and helps keep the board aligned with the direction of travel.

So now you all have to start all over, taking this into consideration. :laugh:


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## East§ide

Flatbase,freebase,flatline.. Idgaf anymore lol


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## behi

Donutz said:


> Just an additional variable to throw into the fire is the question of how much fresh snow is on the ground. At one extreme you have the polished hardpack which is extremely squirrely, at the other extreme you're trying to "flatbase" through a foot of powder (beyond that even the quotes don't work). I think that a certain amount of fresh on top of the hardpack dampens the squirreliness and helps keep the board aligned with the direction of travel.
> 
> So now you all have to start all over, taking this into consideration. :laugh:


Nope.

http://www.snowboardingforum.com/ti...ned-while-flat-basing-now-i-8.html#post831682


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## Donutz

behi said:


> Nope.
> 
> http://www.snowboardingforum.com/ti...ned-while-flat-basing-now-i-8.html#post831682


And how did that post work out? :laugh:


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## wrathfuldeity

I just got back from flatbasing 24" of powder, only got stuck once...waist deep wading out:yahoo:


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## East§ide

There's probably alot of validity to the statement SnoWolf made.. The conditions probably do have alot to do with the overall discussion. I ride less than ideal conditions 90% of the time and that does have alot to do with my riding style.


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## Donutz

wrathfuldeity said:


> I just got back from flatbasing 24" of powder, only got stuck once...waist deep wading out:yahoo:


Soon..........


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## wrathfuldeity

I did do some flatbase testing today on some very flat track and paid attention to slight pressure of an edge

pow...no edge needed

soft pack...no edge needed...kind of went edge to edge at times due to inperfections on the track...ankles loose but pressure was neutral

hard pack and ice...some pressure/edge


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## East§ide

I also rode today and paid attention.. Conditions weren't bad considering its mid march on the east coast.. Basically a mixture of hardpack over some ice and the occasional loose granular. Flat basing without some kind of pressure was next to impossible to do and feel any semblance of safety. Unfortunately the day got cut short because my girlfriend caught her heelside edge and took a nasty spill on her tailbone. 

Probably alot of this has to do with the type of board you're on too.. I love my Evo, and I regularly hit 35mph+ on it, but that's when I'm holding a tight edge and really working the board. It's simply too soft to feel stable at high speeds without alot of edge pressure. I can't even imagine trying to bomb a hill on it totally flat.. As it is I know that I am constantly compensating for the terrain by adjusting pressure.


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## MarshallV82

I don't like flat basing much, always keep a slight edge.. I never have problems getting past flat spots. I'll do it every once in while to play around but IMO it's not a good idea.
I have a 154 Evo, it feels fine at speeds to me but I'm much more comfortable bombing runs on my Burton supermodel. Love my Evo though, such a playful board.


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## East§ide

I LOVE my Evo too , but I definitely want to lay an edge down with it.. That's all. There's just too many factors involved I guess to make this a black and white discussion


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## t21

I also tried flatbasing my board(flat with early rise on tip and tail) on hardpack and it was ok but it just did not feel safe, it can be done on powder and soft snow as wrathfuldeity mentioned but i guess on hardpack... you have to get used to it. I'm 45 and i do NOT want to be scorpioned:laugh:


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## MarshallV82

Ditto. 
I don't mind falling but catching an edge is no fun! If you can straight line a run on a slight edge and get up to 50-70 MPH why bother riding with your board completely flat based? I guess I just don't see the need unless your hitting features in the park or landing. I've done it but it's sketchy, I personally get more courage around a .05 B.A.C.

Powder is obviously a different animal.

But it's all fun if you can take the abuse! :yahoo:


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## Board Gadget

TorpedoVegas said:


> Never ever flat base, always keep an edge..... End of thread.


Wow, I guess not!! :icon_scratch:

Actually, I agree, I didn't think snowboards even worked if they were truly flat based. Everyone has seen the first time boarder on the bunny hill. They are determined to make it down the bunny hill. They flat base the whole way and that board is wiggling and sliding side to side and then they crash. The first thing we say when they get up is, "Dude, never, ever ride without an edge."

I have only been riding one full season so I can truly remember riding flat base and it was a pretty bad feeling. You KNOW you are about to catch an edge at any second. So, I make a conscious decision to have a major edge so I never flat base. I wonder if the people on this thread with a lot of riding experience have such fine edge control they appear to be completely flat based but they are not. My kid looks like he is flat based at 50 mph and it scares the crap out of me. He claims he has an edge but his board looks flat as snot.

Conditions do matter and some conditions are more forgiving than others. I learned to snowboard on an ice encrusted hill in Minnesota. The first time we had about 6 inches of snow I felt myself flat base and braced for impact. Nothing happened of course and the powder washed over my edge.


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## neni

East§ide said:


> Probably alot of this has to do with the type of board you're on too.. I love my Evo, and I regularly hit 35mph+ but that's when I'm holding a tight edge and really working the board.


I'd say, the equitation could look like that: *Terrain+condition * board shape * riders ability+confidence = flatbase safely* 

Assume the same _terrain+condition _ (same resort 10 years every weekend, long runouts with flat hardpack in the morning, softer in afternoons, about 25° at the beginning, no bends, good overview, you need a certain speed to reach the snow-bar) AND the same rider (I'm rather precautious, no daredevil like the guys), the _board shape _ variable made a big difference to me. 

- On Custom X/Liberty Carbon (camber): never flatbased, too afraid to catch an edge, never reached the bar (no idea about the speed, had no app then). 
- On Raptor (hybrid rocker): no way, the rocker felt too wiggly, only reached 43mph: walk to the bar. 
- On Flagship (technically hybrid camber but actually flat): now flatbasing commonly and with confidence (up to 50mph): even had to break at the bar 

But if you add a bit of _riders ability+confidence_, the _board shape_ will be compensated, a.s.o.


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## jjz

Personally i have a similiar view to snowwolf. When trying to ride with as little pressure as possible, i just lose control. I am on my last day of my utah trip today, and with park city having a ton of long flat run outs, i tried paying attention to what i was doing and unless i tried not put pressure anywhere, i would always have more pressure on one side of the board. Yesterday, we got 1 inch of snow and i tried flatbasing without any pressure again and in that it worked fine.


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## East§ide

Snowolf said:


> Interesting observation Nenni. I agree witht he Raptor. I find the NS as well as Mervin C2, pretty spooky flat basing on packed but I actually feel much better flat basing on traditional camber. I am shooting in the dark here but I am attributin this to the fact that with traditional camber, when flat based, I actually have four contact points engaged with the snow. On my Billy Goat and the the Neversummer boards, if I am flat based, its like riding balanced on a bowling ball with the rocker under the pivot point of the board and all four contact points floating above the snow in the air.
> 
> The only way I flat base on these profiles is very nose heavy to ride the front half of the board in order to keep two contact points engaged with the snow or in a full tail press. never ever centered.


That's EXACTLY how I felt yesterday. I'd go flat on the Evo and immediately feel unsafe ( hardpack over ice, some loose granular pushed around unevenly by skiers). I literally felt like I was trying to stand on one of those big bouncy workout balls.. The nose wanted to go one way, then the tail, to the point where I realized it was just not safe to ride like that. I made it across the flat fine putting some slight heel pressure and if I did start slowing down I shifted my weight over the nose. No matter how much I WANTED to be totally flat, my board and body kept telling me it was a bad idea. 

That being said, I wonder how I'd feel if I was riding a Mod Rocker or a Buckwild or any other mostly flat based board. I can't really compare to camber as I haven't ridden camber in so long I don't even remember what it feels like. I know on my 09 GNU DK (full rocker) it has even less contact than the Evo and there's no shot of that happening on this coast


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## East§ide

I actually haven't.. I even considered buying one at one point but I honestly love the hybrid camber from NS so much that I can't find a good reason to buy a different brand. I'm debating between a Proto and an SL.. I just want something with a little more pop and stiffness. I demoed a Salomon Sabotage that I really liked though.. Have you ridden any of their boards ?


----------



## East§ide

I wish there was a way to demo NS decks out here. The HD sounds awesome but since I've never ridden the CT it'd be hard to compare . Plus I usually try and get last seasons decks since I generally save about 30% lol


----------



## CassMT

neni said:


> * * board shape **


critical factor....i can ride flat without any problem, or hint of catching, but i'm not on a c2-3 , rocker or other of the mixed cambers


----------



## timmytard

Ok. did some fuckin' around today.

Yes, I am definitely flat basing. When I was, I could only go where gravity took me. The whole idea behind flat basing is you don't steer, you haul, ass that it is:bowdown:

Try this You will 100% know for a fact you are Flat basin'k:
While you are riding, bend down & grab your left boot with your left hand & right with the right.
Now push down on your boots & rest your elbows on your knees.

You can feel every little bump travel through your feet into your hands.
Even feel exactly where the bump was, if it was @ the ball of your foot or heel or toe. 

All I can say is try it. You will feel it instantly.
It was actually pretty trippy Every little bump/lump you go over, you feel individually in a precise spot on the bottom of your foot. 
No two bumps ever feel the same or are in the same place.

To anyone who thinks you're always, even if it's the slightest bit, on an edge?

Nope. Sorry. You are wrong.

On a side note. 
Your brain will be telling you to stare @ your feet, boots & hands.
Don't do it,:huh: Your new route has now become the Fall Line. You will need to pay attention.:cheeky4: 


TT


----------



## ItchEtrigR

East§ide said:


> That's EXACTLY how I felt yesterday. I'd go flat on the Evo and immediately feel unsafe ( hardpack over ice, some loose granular pushed around unevenly by skiers). I literally felt like I was trying to stand on one of those big bouncy workout balls.. The nose wanted to go one way, then the tail, to the point where I realized it was just not safe to ride like that. I made it across the flat fine putting some slight heel pressure and if I did start slowing down I shifted my weight over the nose. No matter how much I WANTED to be totally flat, my board and body kept telling me it was a bad idea.
> 
> That being said, I wonder how I'd feel if I was riding a Mod Rocker or a Buckwild or any other mostly flat based board. I can't really compare to camber as I haven't ridden camber in so long I don't even remember what it feels like. I know on my 09 GNU DK (full rocker) it has even less contact than the Evo and there's no shot of that happening on this coast


My cambered (Operator, Uninc) boards ride stable, compared to my other boards which tend to want to wiggle out of direction more frequently. Camber can get a bit twitchy as you'll feel the contact points up front. To me its quicker and easier to micro adjust while flat on a cambered deck.

My slayblade is flat and is less twitchy, a bit more wiggle, a bit slower to adjust.

My brigade is flat with minimal rise of 4mm and its the board with the most wiggle but being the softest its also not as slow to adjust as the slayblade.

Stiffness seems to play a part especially on flat or rockered boards, but doesn't seem to effect the cambered decks in the same way...

It's anyone else feeling the same?


----------



## East§ide

so i did some messing around again yesterday on hard pack.. and i mean HARDpack.

used my Evo as always. I will concede that when I did let the board go completely flat, it was slightly faster than when putting pressure towards one edge or the other..i could immediately feel the board following the direction of the fall line, wherever it wanted to go.

No matter how much i wanted to, it just didnt feel safe to keep it up for very long even on mostly flat spots...just reporting back. i will admit there is some merit to the idea that it is faster flat based


----------



## MarshallV82

East§ide said:


> so i did some messing around again yesterday on hard pack.. and i mean HARDpack.
> 
> used my Evo as always. I will concede that when I did let the board go completely flat, it was slightly faster than when putting pressure towards one edge or the other..i could immediately feel the board following the direction of the fall line, wherever it wanted to go.
> 
> No matter how much i wanted to, it just didnt feel safe to keep it up for very long even on mostly flat spots...just reporting back. i will admit there is some merit to the idea that it is faster flat based


I honestly feel better doing it on steep areas than flat areas, I also feel way more confident flatbasing my supermodel (RIP) which is camber. 
I'm not a fan of flat basing on the Evo either.

I feel like It's faster in most conditions as well, aside from slushly snow... IMO


----------



## Hayabusa

so it sounds like you want to pressure an edge when going on a flat area. 

But what about going off jumps (straight air) or trying a butter or press

is the idea also the same that you want to very slightly pressure a particular edge to stay in control? or adjust as needed?


----------



## East§ide

youre going to get a bunch of varied responses. basically, what weve seem to conclude is that your skill level, board type (stiffness, camber profile), snow conditions and the amount of people on the slope will all affect what you want to do. 

for me personally, i like to keep some pressure on one edge or another. there is merit to the argument that your board is faster when youre not pressuring an edge. where i ride, the snow conditions and the amount of people i need to maneuver around simply dont allow for it to be a safe option to be totally flat based.


----------



## Sincraft

wrathfuldeity said:


> your backend feels squirrely that's your clue, are a bit in the backseat; shift to the front seat…
> Edit: also make sure you are stacked and parallel with close shoulders and hips. You were likely rotated open and in the backseat....the usual set up for a scorpion


I actually do better leaning back a bit and pulling the weight up off my front foot like riding pow if I flatbase, now going off a jump - I dont know what I do

although, yea engaging an edge is best even if a lil...unless in pow


----------



## neni

One more flatbasing comment... (I talk about groomers. I think its clear that we all flatbase in pow).
Had this discussion with my husband. As mentioned before, I stay quite centered with slightly more weight on the front foot. He says, that this is ok at my (in his opinion rather slow) high speed, but if he's up at real high speed (over 65mph), he stays well in the hind seat. His argument was that you've less base contact and thus less risk that an edge could contact slightly uneven snow. Heard the same thing of a race pro, who recomnended me to put more weight on the hind foot to make the (Rc) board a more stable ride. Even if this sounds reasonable, it surprised me cause it's against all I've read so far. I'll never be able to make this observation cause I'm too scared to hit this speeds. But I'd be very interested if some of you guys, that ride such speeds have similar impressions.


----------



## behi

neni said:


> He says, that this is ok at my (in his opinion rather slow) high speed, but if he's up at real high speed (over 65mph), he stays well in the hind seat. His argument was that you've less base contact and thus less risk that an edge could contact slightly uneven snow.


I think he is wrong. It's just that high speeds have a very big stabilizing effect. As has been mentioned before, if the weight is back, the board will want to pivot if there is a disturbance. 

I've only ever caught an edge at relatively low speeds (knock on wood).


----------



## behi

Snowolf said:


> No way in hell anyone really doing 65 MPH is flat based. That is Olympic speeds we are talking about here and those guys are definitely on their edge.


I wouldn't be so sure about that. I've done 60mph (top speed) in excellent conditions (groomed powder). Definitely not on edge. (And yes, I was the only one making a really long flat section...)


----------



## Deacon

Suddenly I hear calliope music from a merry go round....
:laugh:


----------



## behi

Snowolf said:


> We have already established the fact that in good, soft groomed powder flat basing is easy but due to drag, I will believe 60MPH when I see it.


Measured with a Garmin Etrex (which is using doppler effect, you can expect 1mph accuracy). Conditions were excellent, the trail was freshly groomed, the snow very, very fast. Heck, I've done 45mph on a beginner trail.

BTW, my brother, who is a skier, has done 72mph on the same trail.


----------



## neni

The Deacon said:


> Suddenly I hear calliope music from a merry go round....
> :laugh:


:laugh: this "to flatbase or not to flatbase" topic seems to hit a sensitive spot, kind of a religious thing... Anyway. I actually didn't want to resume the flatbase discussion but was interested if someone else does this "more weight on hind foot" at top speed.

BTW. Just cause one thinks it's reckless doesn't automatically mean that there's not someone out there who does so :dunno:


----------



## CassMT

on a camber its more weight to the front, increasingly so with speed..thats what i do anyhow and i havent biffed on the cattrack in 20 yrs

going thru this thread, to me, any controversy on all this is just funny


----------



## MarshallV82

CassMT said:


> on a camber its more weight to the front, increasingly so with speed..thats what i do anyhow and i havent biffed on the cattrack in 20 yrs
> 
> going thru this thread, to me, any controversy on all this is just funny


Yeah, lots of science here for such a simple issue. I don't really pay attention to what I do though, I just ride. I haven't had such problems either. I refuse to teach new people how to board though, I suck at it and get mad if they get frustrated or give up. I just make them take lessons so I can enjoy my day.

OP is most likely mind fucked by now.


----------



## Deacon

neni said:


> :laugh: this "to flatbase or not to flatbase" topic seems to hit a sensitive spot, kind of a religious thing... Anyway. I actually didn't want to resume the flatbase discussion but was interested if someone else does this "more weight on hind foot" at top speed.
> 
> BTW. Just cause one thinks it's reckless doesn't automatically mean that there's not someone out there who does so :dunno:


No sensitivity here, just good humor. 
Just like Cass, I put more weight forward on my camber the faster I go. I could see how a rocker might be more stable at a high speed leaning back some. Explains why I see all the park rats standing on their back leg when they're bombing hills.


----------



## behi

Snowolf said:


> In powder or on groom? If in powder, where and what was the moisture content?


Fresh powder that was run over by a groomer - groomed powder.

Off trail, the fastest I've done is around 50mph. Snow set for a few days, pretty dense, temperature a little below freezing. 

My board planes really well; 33cm tip/tail width, 28.6cm waist. I often have not-so-steep powder mostly to myself, since everyone else is going too slow to have much fun... :yahoo:


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## jtg

Interesting description about the bowling ball balancing on the RC/C2 profile. That's what I was feeling. I remember like 8 years ago before my boarding hiatus, I only got out a few times, but I still had no feelings of instability "flat basing" and that was on a cambered deck.

With the C2, even though it's been said to keep weight forward, I still feel like weight back is more stable. I can't really reconcile this because "heavy end wants to go first" is logical, but it feels like shifting weight forward is when the squirrel kicks in.

I wonder if this is because putting the weight forward is actually centering it right over the middle rocker section, briefly causing you to lose both front and rear contact (or at least heavily unweight them). Maybe when I think my weight is forward, it's actually centered. Perhaps on these C2/RC decks, it would be reasonable to say:

Centered flatbase: Worst
Rear-heavy flatbase: Better, but not ideal
Front-heavy flatbase: Best

On a camber board, centered weight puts maximum engagement on both points, and even if you favor one or the other, the profile will naturally put some pressure on the other point. That would make it easier for beginners to do that.

On a full rocker...well who knows, all bets are off 

That makes me curious about trying it on a C3 profile:









I haven't ridden a board like that, but I'm curious now. It would be nice to have the camber stability but I'm not sure I'd sacrifice it for float.


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