# treewell death on Big Mtn



## CassMT (Mar 14, 2013)

*tree well death on Big Mtn + tree well safety*

this happened last week but i did not hear about it til today...

http://www.flatheadbeacon.com/artic...tree_well_at_whitefish_mountain_resort/37359/



> The son arrived at the bottom of the ski run and returned to the top of the run and retraced their route after his father did not show up. The man's son discovered his father’s skis protruding from the tree well, according to the sheriff’s office.


kid was 14 and finds his dad like that, damn this kinda freaked me out today

this was right in a small area of tight trees and all these rocks and mini chutes, it's my go to spot that i hit pretty much everytime i go up, fuck


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## boarderaholic (Aug 13, 2007)

Good lord. I feel so bad for that kid. No one should ever have to find anyone that way. RIP to that guy as well.


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## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

That's horrible. Hate it for that kid.


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## CassMT (Mar 14, 2013)

earlier in the season when it was deep i would go though that area 3-4 runs a day. my kid (also 14) did get into a well back there, but he was rightside up (chest deep though) and i was only 15ft away. he had to dig down to his bindings and unclip both feet, took him 15 mins to get out...now we both have whistles and stay is sight of eachother, but still, anything could happen. i heard this story in the liftline today and just felt so damn bad about it i did one more run and just left


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## wrathfuldeity (Oct 5, 2007)

Condolences to the family.

I'd suggest rig a loop on the ratchets if ur riding deep and in treewells hazards...all of my bindings now have it, very easy and cheap...0.25 cents. Of course not a guarantee but it helps and really no downside.


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## CassMT (Mar 14, 2013)

trying to wrap my head around that wrathful...both the black wire and the cord? you just pull and your straps will pop?


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## wrathfuldeity (Oct 5, 2007)

CassMT said:


> trying to wrap my head around that wrathful...both the black wire and the cord? you just pull and your straps will pop?


The black wire is for the split board Spark touring pins...though this year changed over to the Afterburner tesla/pinless bindings.

Its just the red cord...I use a 3/8" stiffer cord so that the cord stands up...iirc 8-9" total lengh...but its easy and you just need enough slack to be able to put the ratchets on the ladders. I've had no problem with the loop catching an anything. One pair I drilled a small hole, the others I just looped and wired (copper) wrapped the loop (no drilling the ratchet tabs). When doing laps its super easy to release and its a bit easier at the top of the chair. I've read that a few folks will even run another length of cord up their pants leg...so they can release their board if caught in an avy.


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## chomps1211 (Mar 30, 2011)

Wrath, that's a really interesting mod. Have you given a little thought to doing a more in depth DIY post for that one? :thumbsup:


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## wrathfuldeity (Oct 5, 2007)

chomps1211 said:


> Wrath, that's a really interesting mod. Have you given a little thought to doing a more in depth DIY post for that one? :thumbsup:


ahh...no...its very simple...cord with a loop on each ratchet (ankle and toe) and use a piece of wire to cinch the loop. Highly reversible mod if ya don't like it....and will probably not void the warranty.


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## CassMT (Mar 14, 2013)

yeah, seems a good idea...maybe some close-up pics....thinking i should do it though, like you say, no downside


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## LuckyRVA (Jan 18, 2011)

> The family of Niclas Waschle, who died in a tree well while skiing, filed a complaint last month in U.S. District Court against Whitefish Mountain Resort over the death.


:icon_scratch:

How could Whitefish possibly held liable for someone falling into a tree well?


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## wrathfuldeity (Oct 5, 2007)

just took a pic...apologies for the blurriness


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## CassMT (Mar 14, 2013)

LuckyRVA said:


> :icon_scratch:
> 
> How could Whitefish possibly held liable for someone falling into a tree well?


some lawyer's bright idea...i'm sure the mtn will settle, lawsuit are bad publicity...

and,all of sudden there are treewell warning signs all over the place


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## scotty100 (Apr 3, 2012)

wrathfuldeity said:


> just took a pic...apologies for the blurriness


I remember snowolf did something similar and had a thread about it...of course it's gone now but maybe killclimbz remembers and can compare and comment...?:dunno: Looks like a good idea...


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## Argo (Feb 25, 2010)

I think wrath posted about it before also, not snowolf. 

Is it bungee or regular cord you used?


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## CassMT (Mar 14, 2013)

wrathfuldeity said:


> just took a pic...apologies for the blurriness


nice, thanks


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## wrathfuldeity (Oct 5, 2007)

Argo said:


> I think wrath posted about it before also, not snowolf.
> 
> Is it bungee or regular cord you used?


Regular 3/8" cord, 

and with the burton ratchets it does take a fairly good pull to release them...also have never had the cord contribute to an inadvertant pre-mature release :laugh::laugh::laugh:


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## sixpoint (Nov 17, 2012)

Sad to hear about the death. Great info on the release mech. Thank you


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## killclimbz (Aug 10, 2007)

Voile has been putting the qyick release cord on their Lightrail Bindings since they started making them. Meant for boarders to get out of their bindings in an avalanche. 

Definitely doesn't hurt. 

There have been multiple studies done on tree wells. The most notable was on the head first immersion. Twelve skiers and twelve snowboarders were put in that situation and told to try to get out. No one could. Even those who got their skis or boards off. The conclusion was that they would have died without help. 

So if you go head first you are probably fucked. The quick release does make it easier for your rescuers as removing your board is going to be one of the first things to do. 

One of the best things you could have is an Avalung. That could allow you to breathe while waiting for rescue. A whistle on your coat wouldn't hurt either. That could allow you to alert people of your location. 

Good discussion. Tree wells are fucking scary.


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## CassMT (Mar 14, 2013)

0 for 24!?! that IS frikkn scary...i'm wondering how the hell i made it this long

have whistle, headed to the hardware to do some cords


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## NSXRguy (Jan 17, 2011)

excuse my ignorance... but what is a tree well?


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## LuckyRVA (Jan 18, 2011)

Watch and learn http://youtu.be/0jvEYzh_1Sg


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## Unkept Porpoise (Aug 15, 2013)

I need to buy a whistle


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## sabatoa (Jan 18, 2011)

Thankfully not something Michigan riders have to worry about so much but man is that horrifying.


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## Madbob14 (Feb 28, 2013)

Out of curiosity can you suffocate in a tree well?

That video makes me feel like i should be carrying a shovel!


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## Soul06 (Dec 18, 2010)

Madbob14 said:


> Out of curiosity can you suffocate in a tree well?
> 
> That video makes me feel like i should be carrying a shovel!


Not can you? You WILL suffocate in a tree well

Being that I generally ride alone the thought of hitting a tree well is terrifying and is primarily why I stay to marked trails and hesitate doing any glades


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## unsunken (Dec 15, 2009)

Madbob14 said:


> Out of curiosity can you suffocate in a tree well?


Yep, that's how people die in them. In-bound tree well deaths are much more common in-bounds than in the backcountry.

iirc, the best thing you can do if you get stuck in a tree well is to be calm, grab onto the tree/branches to prevent falling in further, and wait for help or for the snow to compress. Struggling only makes it worse. It's a terrifying prospect and I hope none of us ever end up in that situation.

Edit: Oh, and you're supposed to try to create an air pocket if possible.


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## CassMT (Mar 14, 2013)

suffocate or freeze to death if no one finds you

couple years ago a young guy, snowboarder, died in the sidecountry here. local kid that everyone on the mtn knew. not suffocated he was just stuck and couldn't get out. died of hypothermia out there overnight


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## LuckyRVA (Jan 18, 2011)

That's pretty much my worst nightmare


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## baldylox (Dec 27, 2007)

The whistle won't help you if your are head first. Even assuming you could get it in you're mouth, nobody will hear it. The only real solution is leap frogging. 

There is very little risk of tree wells in-bounds on the east coast. Out of bounds, they are most definitely there. Do not ride alone.


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## CassMT (Mar 14, 2013)

LuckyRVA said:


> That's pretty much my worst nightmare


no doubt, that and being eaten by a grizzly (which happens here occasionally too) are worst case scenarios


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## chomps1211 (Mar 30, 2011)

Having had a close call, drowning scare once in some big SoCal surf, the prospect of suffocation is what scares me most about the tree well scenario. I am NOT making light of the kids death in any way, but of the two possibilities. I think I would prefer death by hypothermia than suffocation. 

Mostly because I think that if I was suffocating, my last minutes alive would be spent in _absolute_ panic and terror. Supposedly with hypothermia, near the end the mind and body becomes calm. Almost peaceful. If that's true, that would be preferable to me! :dunno:

But honestly, the whole idea of tree well traps just freaks me out. Not something I really want to think about.


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## Pigpen (Feb 3, 2013)

I'd never be able to go down the mountain the same...


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## sabatoa (Jan 18, 2011)

chomps1211 said:


> Having had a close call, drowning scare once in some big SoCal surf, the prospect of suffocation is what scares me most about the tree well scenario. I am NOT making light of the kids death in any way, but of the two possibilities. I think I would prefer death by hypothermia than suffocation.
> 
> Mostly because I think that if I was suffocating, my last minutes alive would be spent in _absolute_ panic and terror. Supposedly with hypothermia, near the end the mind and body becomes calm. Almost peaceful. If that's true, that would be preferable to me! :dunno:
> 
> But honestly, the whole idea of tree well traps just freaks me out. Not something I really want to think about.


No way dude. The guy that died of hypo spent hours and hours struggling and I'm sure breathing wasn't easy either. He knew he was fucked for hours and there was nothing he could do. True nightmare.


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## M.C._Dub (Jan 18, 2013)

This is one of my biggest fears. Having never been riding out west, and nowhere near deep enough in the east's backcountry (i typically stick to sidecountry and short hikes), I'm a bit ignorant on the whole topic so forgive this (probably) stupid question. 

While riding, can you tell what's a possible tree well and what's just a typical area of super-snowy trees? Everything kind of blends together when you're out there and moving at a steady clip, so what can help distinguish an area that might house a tree well from an area that's pretty safe to ride? If it's even possible to pick them out.

I'm trying to get out to Colorado some time soon so I'd like to learn more about the hazards I might run into there.


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## CassMT (Mar 14, 2013)

that's just it, you can't tell. some just happen to get the condition right where you get a big air pocket there, some don't...certainly no way to tell when you are cruising thru at speed. so like the signs say, "steer clear", don't ride alone, try to stay close together too cuz that 5-10 mins spent when your buddy is trying to climb back up the hill, or come around again (like what happened to this kid here) could be the 5-10 critical mins.

that being said, it's a rare occurrence, one is probably in more danger driving to and from the mountain (not to make light of it at all)


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## chomps1211 (Mar 30, 2011)

CassMT said:


> that's just it, you can't tell. some just happen to get the condition right where you get a big air pocket there, some don't...certainly no way to tell when you are cruising thru at speed. so like the signs say, "steer clear", don't ride alone, try to stay close together too cuz that 5-10 mins spent when your buddy is trying to climb back up the hill, or come around again (like what happened to this kid here) could be the 5-10 critical mins.
> 
> that being said, it's a rare occurrence, one is probably in more danger driving to and from the mountain (not to make light of it at all)


Isn't this more common in the coniferous forests of the PNW as well? I thought I read somewhere that it is not as common in mixed forests of the Rockies.


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## lab49232 (Sep 13, 2011)

chomps1211 said:


> Isn't this more common in the coniferous forests of the PNW as well? I thought I read somewhere that it is not as common in mixed forests of the Rockies.


True due to the fact that the coniferous trees branches and needles will catch a lot of the snow and prevent snow falling around the base of the tree. Over time snow builds up around the exterior of the tree but not uner it as the branches are holding all that snow. If it gets deep enough to where snow levels are as high as the branches start on the tree you get MASSIVE wells that make even rescues dangerous. 

Been fortunate enough to never find myself in one as I try and stay as far away from the trees as possible, but then you need to worry about creek holes and crevasses. Landed myself in a pretty big one over in the PR section at Mt Hood Meadows a few years back while riding alone. Managed to wedge my board in to one wall of the creek hole and my back against the other while falling in (Got stuck about 3 feet down, walls were about 6 feet and the cavern below to the river bed was probably another 8 foot drop). Left me suspend in the hole for about 2 hours before I managed to shimmy my way out. Ride with people and whistles are a must!


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## unsunken (Dec 15, 2009)

chomps1211 said:


> Isn't this more common in the coniferous forests of the PNW as well? I thought I read somewhere that it is not as common in mixed forests of the Rockies.


Some info here. According to it, it still happens in Colorado at a rate not that different from the PNW. Coniferous trees probably make for bigger tree wells, but the light powder of the Rockies probably makes them harder to get out of.


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## chomps1211 (Mar 30, 2011)

unsunken said:


> Some info here. According to it, it still happens in Colorado at a rate not that different from the PNW. Coniferous trees probably make for bigger tree wells, but the light powder of the Rockies probably makes them harder to get out of.


Wow! Interesting article! Thanks for posting that link!


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## CassMT (Mar 14, 2013)

> Most Tree Well/ SIS accidents have happened during or just after big snow storms or storm cycles. In general terms, the more fresh snow the higher the risk.
> As of 2011 research, an average of four Tree Well/ SIS accidents happen each season in the United States.


it's good that all this be talked about and reminded of for future searches


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## ETM (Aug 11, 2009)

Here is a pic of my quick release binding system, its made from 2mm nylon rope with aluminium crimp lugs to suit 1.5mm stainless wire. I put a d ring so it pulls on both ratchets equally when I pull on the rope that goes up my pant legs.
Ditching your board in a slide is probably just as good as an airbag IMO.
I will get some better pics in sunlight tomorrow.


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## wrathfuldeity (Oct 5, 2007)

:thumbsup: ETM...that's damm slick....I had problems envisioning the line up the leg of the pants and how it would get both ratches to release evenly. Ok now wondering, where do you clip the top end of the line?....belt, avy pack straps/belt?


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## ETM (Aug 11, 2009)

Basically the rip cord is one piece. It attaches to one binding, goes up the leg where i have looped it around to form a handle and then down the other leg to the binding.
It pulls on both legs and all 4 ratchets equally.


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## ETM (Aug 11, 2009)

This is the handle, its just a loop with some clear hose over it to help it keep shape so its easy to find if I need it. 
That loop sits outside my pants and the 2 lengths of rope run inside my pant leg to the bindings, pull the loop and its bindings off.

Sorry about bodgy pics, Im posting from a truck stop in Japan.


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## ETM (Aug 11, 2009)

wrathfuldeity said:


> Condolences to the family.
> 
> I'd suggest rig a loop on the ratchets if ur riding deep and in treewells hazards...all of my bindings now have it, very easy and cheap...0.25 cents. Of course not a guarantee but it helps and really no downside.


See how you have your pin wire flapping around there. Thats what caused me to snap a pin when my boot caught the wire when getting out of the binding.
Run it like my pic below. Pin on the inside and pass the wire through the toe cap.


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## ETM (Aug 11, 2009)

Reflecting on my design, it has a flaw. Once released from the binding I am still attached to the board by the rope inside the pant leg. I need to make individual rip cords or run the single one outside the pants.


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## wrathfuldeity (Oct 5, 2007)

Nice idea about the tube covered cord for the open loop...Good point about still being attached...I'll add some stripper tear-away snow pants to the list of avy gear...lol. Upgraded to the Afterburner tesla/pin-less bindings and the improved integrated wider climing wires are great and so much easier to deal with.


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## mojo maestro (Jan 6, 2009)

Doesn't have to be large tree with a well at it's base. Could be smaller tree, with only the top showing. Wrong place, wrong time and you're fucked. Here in Colorado, I went board first, waist deep several years ago. Over 30 minutes to get out of my bindings. Scary shit...........learned a valuable lesson.


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## wrathfuldeity (Oct 5, 2007)

mojo maestro said:


> Doesn't have to be large tree with a well at it's base. Could be smaller tree, with only the top showing. Wrong place, wrong time and you're fucked. Here in Colorado, I went board first, waist deep several years ago. Over 30 minutes to get out of my bindings. Scary shit...........learned a valuable lesson.


It can be a smaller completely buried unseen tree. Inbounds, I biffed and was hiking/swimming out to get on a steeper slope and suddendly fell through...seemingly nothing below but could feel with my feet a few tree branches. Luckily was carrying my board in front of me so that laid across my board; it was under my arms and was holding me up at chest/neck/shoulder deep from sinking further. Anyway eventually able to fill/kick-in a bit of snow and kind of swim out. It was probably about a 30 min process of getting exhausted. A problem in these snow conditions, is if you are strapped in and its soft and fluffy, as you struggle to get to your bindings, you are also sinking and the snow is caving in around you. And if you biff your are likely to be lying in the deep and perhaps your board is higher than your body and yet there is no solid base beneath you to sit up or push up againist...so as you struggle...you continue to sink. So a trick is not to panic, get your face clear, then pat around and try to stuff/build snow under your body...so that you stop sinking...this also makes a bigger bomb hole to try to crawl/swim out. Got to keep your wits!


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## CassMT (Mar 14, 2013)

nice rig ETM, thanks for the detail

got one whistle for the chest pocket zipper pull, one small flat one for the lil pocket on the back of my glove

so odd, it's dumping snow here today and tonight,* but for the for time ever* i have a bit of trepidation mixed in with the excitement, that will probably disappear when i drop in


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## a4h Saint (Jan 24, 2013)

wrathfuldeity said:


> It can be a smaller completely buried unseen tree. Inbounds, I biffed and was hiking/swimming out to get on a steeper slope and suddendly fell through...seemingly nothing below but could feel with my feet a few tree branches. Luckily was carrying my board in front of me so that laid across my board; it was under my arms and was holding me up at chest/neck/shoulder deep from sinking further. Anyway eventually able to fill/kick-in a bit of snow and kind of swim out. It was probably about a 30 min process of getting exhausted. A problem in these snow conditions, is if you are strapped in and its soft and fluffy, as you struggle to get to your bindings, you are also sinking and the snow is caving in around you. And if you biff your are likely to be lying in the deep and perhaps your board is higher than your body and yet there is no solid base beneath you to sit up or push up againist...so as you struggle...you continue to sink. So a trick is not to panic, get your face clear, then pat around and try to stuff/build snow under your body...so that you stop sinking...this also makes a bigger bomb hole to try to crawl/swim out. Got to keep your wits!


HOLY CRAP!!! I was like, hmm tree wells, stay away from big trees after a massive dump, got it:thumbsup:. But now, noooo these little bastards can be anywhere!?!?! This is absolutely horrifying! My first big resort trip is to Jay Peak next year. I was looking forward to getting ride some deep snow and their glades, but now I am second guessing that... definitely taking a buddy or three. Screw whistles, I am buying a fog horn.

EDIT: ETM, Please post an update with what you do to eliminate the flaw with our system.


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## Psi-Man (Aug 31, 2009)

You'll be fine at Jay, but yea, ride the trees with some friends.


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## wrathfuldeity (Oct 5, 2007)

a4h Saint said:


> HOLY CRAP!!! I was like, hmm tree wells, stay away from big trees after a massive dump, got it:thumbsup:. But now, noooo these little bastards can be anywhere!?!?! This is absolutely horrifying! My first big resort trip is to Jay Peak next year. I was looking forward to getting ride some deep snow and their glades, but now I am second guessing that... definitely taking a buddy or three. Screw whistles, I am buying a fog horn.
> 
> EDIT: ETM, Please post an update with what you do to eliminate the flaw with our system.


Don't worry too much, where I went in there was about a 15-20 foot base . Though this kind of snow that has tree well hazard can be deadly if you do a header some place. One of my wife's friend's husband died a few years back,...in bounds, expert level rider did a header in the deep...probably nothing to push against and suffocated...no one saw him go in til it was too late. Sometimes riding this kind of snow...really has to be considered to be doing "no fall" lines...so you want to have your powder game ON.


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## binarypie (Nov 29, 2009)

My avalung and transceiver are kind of hooked together into a nice little harness so even when I'm riding inbounds on a pow day I feel like i have a better chance of survival. Provided I can get to my avalung. 

The one thing I don't know for sure is how well the avalung will work under my jacket. I guess since the jacket is breathable it should be ok?


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## CassMT (Mar 14, 2013)

today was a big pow day, went right thru the area where that father/son thing went down...can't say i didn't think about it, but it can't be a show-stopper either, carpe diem yo


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## t21 (Dec 29, 2010)

CassMT said:


> today was a big pow day, went right thru the area where that father/son thing went down...can't say i didn't think about it, but it can't be a show-stopper either, carpe diem yo


Did they put any signs(danger tree well) or like a cross on the area similar to the ones you see on the highway?:dunno:


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## Unkept Porpoise (Aug 15, 2013)

binarypie said:


> My avalung and transceiver are kind of hooked together into a nice little harness so even when I'm riding inbounds on a pow day I feel like i have a better chance of survival. Provided I can get to my avalung.
> 
> The one thing I don't know for sure is how well the avalung will work under my jacket. I guess since the jacket is breathable it should be ok?


Avalung won't work under the jacket dude.


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## CassMT (Mar 14, 2013)

just on the summit they have new warning signs, pretty subtle actually, i think they want to alert, but not frighten

no crosses in that zone, we do have a 10ft jesus though, quite controversial


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## mojo maestro (Jan 6, 2009)

So does that 10ft Jesus ride or ski?


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## CassMT (Mar 14, 2013)

neither, he just stands there looking ominous. if anyone finds a dead animal around they bring it and lay it ceremoniously at his feet


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## lab49232 (Sep 13, 2011)

CassMT said:


> neither, he just stands there looking ominous. if anyone finds a dead animal around they bring it and lay it ceremoniously at his feet


Apparently my cat thinks I'm Jesus then...:dunno:


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## wrathfuldeity (Oct 5, 2007)

lab49232 said:


> Apparently my cat thinks I'm Jesus then...:dunno:


yup...a servant just like Jesus...where's my food, open the door, pet me, stay away from me. Jesus, damm you talkin to me again...just going to ignore ya.


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## CassMT (Mar 14, 2013)

What Do Cats Think About Us? You May Be Surprised


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## bseracka (Nov 14, 2011)

CassMT said:


> just on the summit they have new warning signs, pretty subtle actually, i think they want to alert, but not frighten
> 
> no crosses in that zone, we do have a 10ft jesus though, quite controversial


I was under the impression it was supposed to be columbus tarted up to look like Jesus


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## Donutz (May 12, 2010)

lab49232 said:


> Apparently my cat thinks I'm Jesus then...:dunno:


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## CassMT (Mar 14, 2013)

another tree well death yesterday!! damn

Calgary skier dies in tree-well accident - Whitefish Pilot: News

i was out there all day, visibility was pretty good...CRAZY thing is, this happened literally under the chairlift on the backside. hollywood and silvertip and the woods between then are full visible from the chair. coincidence of two (so far) in one season idk, maybe conditions, the way snow has fallen this season, are forming particularly bad well, idk. again, i'm just bummed, feeling so bad for this guy and his family


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## unsunken (Dec 15, 2009)

And another one today. Seattle skier suffocates in tree well on Crystal Mountain Seems like there have been several skier deaths recently, someone died at Stevens on Monday also.

Be careful out there in this storm cycle!


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## codzilla (Dec 15, 2013)

man. I was riding alone all over where the guy went into a treewell at Crystal today. awful. it was waist deep and we haven't seen more than a handful of powder days this season. I almost popped into the trees once, and then "spirit in the sky" came on my playlist and i got a spooky feeling and bailed. crazy, stay safe everyone.


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