# Maximum binding angle



## bob workman (Nov 12, 2015)

I am wondering what the maximum effective angle is for binding setup.

Flay footed (DUCK) stance of about 30 degress for each foot in neutral stance.
So adding to this to get some body rotation has lead foot at significant angle should lose the geometry which gives leverage to heel or toe side leans.

Reducing natural angle results in major hip and knee pain.
Could not make 20 min on groomed cross country ski trail.:injured:

So would riding with 0,0 from neutral stance cause other handling problems?

thanks


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## Nivek (Jan 24, 2008)

I've generally suck by the idea that both binding angles added together equal no more than 30 degrees.


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## bob workman (Nov 12, 2015)

Thanks for the reply.
My natural stance is approximately +30, -30 (which amounts to 0) Or would you consider this 60 degrees. If so your rule of thumb would result in major groin pain and my abandoning this effort.

Assuming the 30 degrees is in addition to my natural stance.
I am concerned that if I move the forward foot to 40-45 to get body rotation for better path of travel vision I would need to apply pressure sideways on the binding rather than against high back losing some degree of control.

Given bad experiences with both downhill & cross country ski attempts I want to optimize chance of success and creature comfort before I strap on the board.

Thanks.


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## timmytard (Mar 19, 2009)

Go take a dump.

Now look down @ your feet.:hairy:


TT


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## chomps1211 (Mar 30, 2011)

bob workman said:


> Thanks for the reply.
> My natural stance is approximately +30, -30 (which amounts to 0) Or *would you consider this 60 degrees*. If so your rule of thumb would result in major groin pain and my abandoning this effort.
> 
> Assuming the 30 degrees is in addition to my natural stance.
> ...


It's 60º!! You _add_ the difference between the angles. 

I find that hard to comprehend,.. You _really_ stand naturally with your feet splayed out +30º/-30º??? How do you keep from falling forward/backward face or butt first? 


-edit-
BTW,.. If your binders offer this adjustment? Whatever angles on your bindings, You want to rotate your highbacks until they are as close to _parallel_ to your boards edge as is possible or practical! This way you are optimizing the leverage you apply to your heel edge via the highbacks. Also,… Twisting your feet in your bindings is an accepted way to torsionally flex your board and engage your sidecut and contact points. (…this is generally considered a more advanced method for turning/controlling one's board.)


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## SnowDragon (Apr 23, 2012)

Nivek said:


> I've generally suck by the idea that both binding angles added together equal no more than 30 degrees.


Same here.

I was advised that more than that places excessive torquing stresses on the knees.
Mind you, I wasn't advised by a doctor, so this may be a snowboarding legend, similar to wrist guards move a break away from your wrist to further up your forearm.


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## Snow Hound (Jul 21, 2012)

Choice with binding angles is one of the many things that snowboarding has going for it over skiing comfort wise. I'm sure you'll be fine as long as your board isn't too wide. Many people ride with a front foot angle close to or even more than 30 - its not common to have a rear foot pointing in the other direction but you need to do what works for you.


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## bob workman (Nov 12, 2015)

Chomps1211: Yep! took a natural stance, traced around feet and measured Distance between toes and heels. Used geometry to calculate angle. This is the way it has always been so I don't know anything different. I do seem to put a lot of pressure on the outside edges of my feet. Plays hell with soles of shoes.

I think I will probably try +30 for leading foot and try -20 on rear foot and see how things go. Remember for me this is close to normal and my body is used to dealing with this physical arrangement.
Can play with things after ' theory hits the snow'. 
Too much pain or too little control will add this to my list of 'things not to do'

Would really like to abandon my role of Clubhouse keeper of the gear and join the fun.


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## neni (Dec 24, 2012)

bob workman said:


> I do seem to put a lot of pressure on the outside edges of my feet. Plays hell with soles of shoes.


Have you tried whether canting helps with your feet/knee/hip issues? 
Another route could be to try if fwd angles - maybe a totally different approach fits your anatomy better than urgently trying to maintain a duck stance with extreme angles?


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## chomps1211 (Mar 30, 2011)

This website will give you a basic understanding of angles, stance, etc. 

Snowboard Stance: A Complete Adjustment Guide - 360Guide

This will show you the angles we're referring to when we say "ducked" forward, etc. 

How do you choose binding angles? -


Most non EST bindings can be adjusted out to +21°/-21°. This is a total of 42° difference. I think there might be some confusion on your part. Like I mentioned,.. +30/-30 is an _awfully_ extreme stance angle.  The images shown in that second link will clearly show what we're talking about.


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## bob workman (Nov 12, 2015)

Snowhound: Yes this flexibility and the cross travel stance is what makes me think I may be able to snowboard where skiing was not possible.

Chomps1211: As a compulsive type A: (need to know all I can on anything I get involved in) I have read these articles and several others on stance. I think I understand them and how they apply to the large number of Snowboarders (Apples). But because of my anatomy, (I really do stand with a total of 60 degrees total between my feet), I am an Orange those numbers simply won't work for me.

GreyDragon: It is possible that my anatomy may end up with me putting extra stress on my knees and this may make snowboarding another thing I cannot do. Wont know If I don't try.
However I want to optimize my chances of success by getting a practical/usable setup from the start. Wrong angle such as trying to make my Orange body conform to Apple angles will result in pain. Lack of control will end up with mishaps and probably different pain.

Perhaps to better understand what I need to do I must ask a different questions.

ASSUME: 
that I will not be riding switch.
the default initial setup seems to be +15,0 for beginners.
That the ability to rock the board onto either edge is critical to control, and this is made easier by applying pressure to the highback.

My questions become:
1. What is the reason for this turning of the forward foot. 

I have read that it is to rotate the body for better path of travel view, but then I read keep your shoulders aligned with the board.


2. At what point does it become more difficult to control the board because of the stance angle. If as Snowhound says some riders use 30+ degrees it would seem that would be OK, but then maybe their greater skill makes up for some lessening of control. 

Thanks all for your comments, satisfies my compulsion to understand and gives me a focus while I wait for enough snow to get out on the hill and actually try it.

Bob


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## timmytard (Mar 19, 2009)

bob workman said:


> Snowhound: Yes this flexibility and the cross travel stance is what makes me think I may be able to snowboard where skiing was not possible.
> 
> Chomps1211: As a compulsive type A: (need to know all I can on anything I get involved in) I have read these articles and several others on stance. I think I understand them and how they apply to the large number of Snowboarders (Apples). But because of my anatomy, (I really do stand with a total of 60 degrees total between my feet), I am an Orange those numbers simply won't work for me.
> 
> ...


If both your bindings are set to 0, that may be zero on the board but in reality it puts your feet pigeon toed,

You rotate the high back so it stays parallel to the boards edge.


TT


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## Snow Hound (Jul 21, 2012)

Got some Chaplin steez going on:


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## neni (Dec 24, 2012)

bob workman said:


> I really do stand with a total of 60 degrees total between my feet


Lol, the hub has such Chaplin feet/legs as well . We rides with a +30 front angle as well (but with +18 hind )

Your questions are a bit tricky since - as you already mention yourself (apples n oranges) - your leg anatomy deviate from the bell curve and as such I'd expect that it's useless to ask if n how an "out of norm" stance - which you deliberately chose for your "out of norm" legs - would affect a "normal" rider. Most of us would feel like taking a ballet lesson with those "extreme" angles, femur unfamiliar rotated, hip shifted, we'd fall completely out of balance since it is, if one has not that natural stance, completely against ones anatomy. But for you, it may be ok...


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## bob workman (Nov 12, 2015)

Perhaps a different tack on question 1.
Why do 'normal' riders use a 15+ angle on their leading foot?
What advantage do they gain from this rotation.


It seems that rotating highbacks can gain back some of the control lost to higher flex side to side so that may mitigate concerns in question 2.

Neni: thanks for that info, lends credence to my idea for initial starting point.
Has he rotated his highbacks?

Thanks again for all the feedback
Bob


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## neni (Dec 24, 2012)

bob workman said:


> Perhaps a different tack on question 1.
> Why do 'normal' riders use a 15+ angle on their leading foot?
> What advantage do they gain from this rotation.


Can't talk for others, but by chance, I do have +15 on the front (-6 hind). It's the lowest front ° I feel comfy with. Inspired by your question, I just checked the body mechanics, also by simulating a lower angle. With 15°, when I shift my weight over front edge as I'd do for a frontside carve, my knee is well aligned and positioned over the foot and I get max pressure on toes. 

If I reduce the angle, the knee gets turned inwards and when shifting the weight now to the front edge, I don't have a nice aligned distribution, knee is instable. 

OTOH, by using a steeper ° - without simultaneously changing the hind - hip hip gets forced into a different position and I loise balance and knee goes outwards, losing alignment completely. that's only my personal knee-leg-foot observation... and take it with pintch of salt as I've switched to duck stance just the other year (had steep +/+ fwd angles before, so I'm not the typical duck rider, and may still use un-proper technique; heavy on front foot)



bob workman;2473146
Neni: thanks for that info said:


> Yes, highbacks are rotated as good as possible.
> BTW: you did recognize the +? Angles are +/+. No duck.


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## chomps1211 (Mar 30, 2011)

bob workman said:


> Perhaps a different tack on question 1.
> Why do 'normal' riders use a 15+ angle on their leading foot?
> What advantage do they gain from this rotation?
> 
> Bob


Having your lead foot rotated forward provides some directionality to your stance. Most ppl naturally have their feet slightly splayed outward to varying degrees. (...yours being the "orange" to apples exception of course.). So an open, +/-° stance feels natural to most folks. If I'm not mistaken,.. Even ppl who ride with a +/+ alpine stance, generally have the front & back foot at different angles. I'm no expert,.. Not on snowboarding or bio-mechanics. But I assume having your feet with differing angles is more natural, more comfortable, and provides better balance than having them both at 0°/0°! :dunno:

Also,.. While it is important when riding to keep ones shoulders relatively parallel and in alignment with the board,..? This is also, to some extent, a matter of degrees as well as personal preference & style. Lots of ppl shredding the slopes with varying degrees of "textbook technique!" It is still possible to maintain good alignment with your hips, shoulders, & upper body while having some directionality to your stance. 

As an "Angry" man once said when as a brand NooB I asked a similar question,... "Skill & Personal Style>Robotic teaching techniques!"


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## ridinbend (Aug 2, 2012)

180 degrees


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## Mizu Kuma (Apr 13, 2014)

timmytard said:


> Go take a dump.
> 
> Now look down @ your feet.:hairy:
> 
> ...


Just incase you've crapped on ya shoes!!!!! :eyetwitch2:


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## chomps1211 (Mar 30, 2011)

ridinbend said:


> 180 degrees
> 
> View attachment 79218


:WTF:


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## Mizu Kuma (Apr 13, 2014)

ridinbend said:


> 180 degrees
> 
> View attachment 79218


I wanna see him traverse that shit!!!!!


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## bob workman (Nov 12, 2015)

Neni: OOps! Missed the + on the trailing foot.

The info you provided from your experiments is something I can understand and seems to make good sense. Based on these experimental results and Chomps1211's comments. I think I will try some dry land experimentation. 

Set binding angles at or near my natural stance then experiment observing Knee/foot alignment to find a comfortable angle that maximizes knee/leg/foot alignment. Will likely do most angle changes to rear foot.

Then rotating highbacks should maximize force transfer for heelside turns.

This should give me as optimized a setup as possible. No pain from distorted anatomy and as much board control as I am likely to get.

The rest will depend on how well this Old Dog can learn new tricks although I'll bet the Butt Plop and Face Plant will be instinctive.

Thanks all for the comments
Bob


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