# High volume short feet



## kirbster (Jan 25, 2012)

I'm hoping Wiredsport, BA, or another boot expert can help. 
After years of dealing with cold, painful feet and what passes for a boot fitter in Denver area shops I went to a boot fitter who confirmed that my issues primarily stem from my high instep. I have almost an inch gap between tongue and the main part of the liner.

My feet measure:
Left 25.25
Right 25.5
Both are a C+ to D width
Both are 27 on the volume measurement where they take the tape measure and run it from one side of the heel cup to the other on the Bannock device. 

Unfortunately the boot fitter had no suggestions around resolving the problem beyond an aftermarket wrap liner which would eliminate the gap, but not resolve the problem of the lower laces pressing down on the top of my foot and cutting off blood flow and thus making them freeze.

I have been wearing Salomon Malamutes for the last 7yrs and wore Synapses before them and I definately like a stiffer boot. 

Does anyone know of snowboard boots that higher volume in the instep area? I've heard 32 and plan to try them next.
Do any companies make boots that come with wrap versus tongue style liners? From looking through the 15/16 catalogs it looks like Ride's Trident and Fuse boots have wrap liners for next year. 

Finding boots in a 7.5 is hard enough in August so I don't have a lot of hope for this spring and have no problem paying full price when the 16 product drops I just want boots that fit right. 

Also if anyone has a shop recomendation for the front range or high country besides Ski and Golf or Christy's it would be awesome to find a local shop. They don't even stock anything below and 8 and have to special order the smaller sizes.

Thanks


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## wrathfuldeity (Oct 5, 2007)

I have a relative high arch/instep and use Ed Vissur "sole" footbeds. Idk...but if you go to 32's, get the focus/dual boa and you can leave the lower foot boa fairly loose....what I do. Also with 7.5 mens...you might be able to find a women's 8-8.5 that might work....I'm a men's 7 and wear a women's 7.5 and 8 in 32's focus boas. Maybe also check out Ride's new triple boas...I also have a women's Ride contour (double boa) in size women's 8. Good luck ...finding small men's boots are a pita...and thats why I got a 2nd pair of 32's and the k2 contours as back ups when the other gets trashed out.


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## Wiredsport (Sep 16, 2009)

Hi Bro,

Sorry I missed this. A few Q's. What size are you Malamutes? Brannock width measurements change by boot size. When you were measured as a C+ or D what Brannock size was that for?

Please remove the insert from your boot liner and stand on it with your heel back in the recess (barefoot please). That will help us see what we are dealing with. If you can get some side shots that would be extra cool .

STOKED.


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## spino (Jan 8, 2013)

not sure i fully understood your problem, but...

maybe northwave?

i have a very high arch myself, and basically ALL the boots i tried were painful because when flexing them the tongue would apply too much pressure on the foot.

the northwaves are the only ones that i know of with a two piece tongue, allowing it to bend naturally at the ankle without pushing to much downwards.

here's a picture of the domain, their stiffest boot:










the leather strip on the ankle is what i am talking about: it allows the tonge to flex leaving enough room for a high-instep foot.


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## kirbster (Jan 25, 2012)

@Wiredsport,
I am in a 25.5 Malamute today. It's my third pair and I've gone down a half size every time. I started with an 26.5 by buying on shoe size before I knew what I was doing. These are by far the best for fit and lack of heel lift although I needed to heat mold them twice to get enough volume in the toe. 
I understand that when they make boots they do the length, width and volume proportionally. When the length increases so does incrementally the width and volume. 
I'm not sure what you mean by what what size brannock was it for. I was a c+ width when seated(semi weighted) and D when I had my full body weight on it.

I'll get some pics tonight when I get home from work. I threw the stock insole away as soon as I get boots and put in the semi custom cork ones I got a couple of years ago.

@wrathfuldeity Good information on looking at womens boots. I had always discounted them assuming they wouldn't be stiff enough since I'm already in one of the 3 stiffest mens boots.


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## kirbster (Jan 25, 2012)

@Wiredsport,
Here are the requested pics and one that shows the gap I have between the tongue of the liner and the main part of it.


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## slyder (Jan 18, 2010)

I"m not boot fitter nor a boot expert. 
Have you tried alternate methods of lacing? 
Don't know if this is a resolution, a good idea or not. Just thought it may be worth a try and it's free


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## kirbster (Jan 25, 2012)

@slyder,
That's a great idea that I actually tried on one boot last week and while it didn't solve the problem it did seem to improve things. I'm going to re lace the left one before this weekend. Thanks!


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## slyder (Jan 18, 2010)

Like you said it may not solve your issue but sometimes a bandaid solution till you can get it fixed is better than not riding. 

Hope your feet feel better and you can find some boots or a lacing system that help your feet.


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## Wiredsport (Sep 16, 2009)

Hi,

Thanks for those photos. From the photos you don't have a particularly high instep. Your lower leg at the ankle is a bit deep for your foot size but that is a horizontal issue more than an instep issue (vertical). In terms of length your boots are still on the large side (you are at the minimum of overhang that we typically look for but you are within the range). The better the boot fits the less you have to rely on lace tension to secure your foot.


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## kirbster (Jan 25, 2012)

Hi Wired,
Could you explain a little bit more about instep versus lower leg? The attached pic isn't of my foot but this was the measurement they took that came out to 27cm versus 25-25.5 for the horitzontal length of my foot and there is definately pressure from the boot on the top of my foot.

When you said the boot is too big do you think I should be in a 25 based on my measurements? I'm with you on foot in boot being snug so no needing lace tension as much but since snowboard boots are made out of soft material versus ski boots there is a limit to how far this can go. 

Thanks for all your help with this.


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## Wiredsport (Sep 16, 2009)

kirbster said:


> Hi Wired,
> Could you explain a little bit more about instep versus lower leg? The attached pic isn't of my foot but this was the measurement they took that came out to 27cm versus 25-25.5 for the horitzontal length of my foot and there is definately pressure from the boot on the top of my foot.
> 
> When you said the boot is too big do you think I should be in a 25 based on my measurements? I'm with you on foot in boot being snug so no needing lace tension as much but since snowboard boots are made out of soft material versus ski boots there is a limit to how far this can go.
> ...


Hi Kirbster,

You bet. The instep classically refers to the top of your foot behind your toes to in front of your ankles. This includes the entirety of the area above your arch. Your foot from the photos actually appear lower volume than average for the fore part of that region but a bit high for the back portion. I mention this because it relates to the potential solution. Consider the Saucony shoe photo. That lacing will not help you (although that is a strong suggestion and creative lacing can be positive in some instances) because the "gap" in the lacing would occur in front of your problem area.

Consider the measurements below. Almost absurd right? All 5 of the top measurement are on the "instep". You are going to be low on three, a bit above on one, and a bit more above an the final one.  but none of these are majorly out of whack. 










Sooooo, (getting long here, my apologies) your current boot is a bit larger than it could be (but within the range). This is particularly important for you as you want to avoid overly strong lace tensioning as much as possible. Your measurements do indicate that a size 7.5 is the correct size but the photo that you pasted of the insert indicates that your particular boot is running a bit on the large side. You are only overhanging the insert by a few mm on your big toe and the other toes are not at the liners end. In an ideal world we would have 1 cm of liner overhang that would be evenly distributed in front of all toes and would include heel overhang. I would suggest that you try some boots in 25 and some different models in 25.5. Be sure that they can be heat fit (that will be almost all of them).

STOKED.


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## PorkCereal (Dec 28, 2013)

I think wired has a foot fetish, = D


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## kirbster (Jan 25, 2012)

Wired, 
Awesome and really informative. I don't think my relacing eliminated the problem but I now have the laces crossing only on the first loop and top two. It's open the rest of the way. 
I got the insole with the 26 Malamutes and they didn't cut it down when it went to the 25.5. Should I have?

Any suggestions on what to look for in a boot? I've always had the salomon single quick lace. Would I be better looking at something like Burton or Nitro where they are two independent laces? 
How about dual boa? I've heard they have good heel hold but it seeks like that would just maximize the pressure at the exact spot I don't want it. 
Thanks for all your help.


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## snowpuppii (Feb 15, 2015)

I totally understand your problems as I have the same issue. Yes a high instep mean your feet are taller than most so a lot of boots (actually all footware in general) give you the feeling that it is pressing down. 

Firstly I'd stay away from burton. I've tried as many burtons as I can and none of them offer the volume you need. Sometimes they can be deceptive too as they have gentle lining which if you don't pull down too much on the lower region won't seem painful at first. But rest assure, that gentle pressure will slowly grow into a day of pain. My previous boots were actually burton's sized up (which you also should never do! the lost in control will make your feet work even harder to do turns) and I was still in pain.

My recommendation is ThirtyTwo boots. I've picked up a pair of binary boa's and my god the 1st time in ever I was finally able to snowboard pain free. I also find their stiff/responsiveness great for the price range. 

Now I am not guaranteeing this to work for you. But definitely give them a try. What you are looking for is no pressure on top at all even if you are tightening them to the max (or near max) The other thing to note is while you are high encourage to find your own insoles. Make sure you look for words like "low volume". So if you are say looking at superfeet, you'd be shying away from the green and instead towards, blue or even black and carbon. 

Hope this helps and good luck finding your path to pain free shredding.


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## Wiredsport (Sep 16, 2009)

Hi Bro,

Could you post a photo of the your insole (profile especially). Obviously we are going to want to be sure that it does not raise your heel at all. While your trouble measurement is technically at the far reaches of your instep this is really a "heel girth" issue. I hate that name as it sounds like it is defining something other than what it actually defines, but...that is your issue. Raising your heel with a insole (many insoles do) will make this problem worse.

Specific brands and models. This is tricky for you due to your size (7-7.5). It is imperative that the boot not have any structure above your problem area. This can be harness loops, BOA guides, webbing, etc. Those will (with the pressure from the binding ankle strap) almost certainly cause discomfort in your problem area. How these structures are positioned will depend on the boot model but also on the boot size. Zonal lacing can work well for your issue. BOA, even dual, is less tune-able as each zone tightens as a whole while laces are very customizable. I would not make any generalizations about brands or rule out (or in) a line based on the fit of a single model. Each model will have its own properties.


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## kirbster (Jan 25, 2012)

Hi Wired,
Thanks for the detail. This is really helping me understand where my problems are coming from. 
Here are a couple of profile pics of my insoles. They are DFP podium plus model. 
DFP Podium & Podium Plus Custom Insoles
I thought the zonal lacing had greatly improved my issues but riding yesterday my feet were slopping around in the boots and falling asleep. 
The falling asleep I'm guessing was from cranking down on the ankle straps to overcome the slop. 
Thanks for all your help, Jon


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## Wiredsport (Sep 16, 2009)

kirbster said:


> Hi Wired,
> Thanks for the detail. This is really helping me understand where my problems are coming from.
> Here are a couple of profile pics of my insoles. They are DFP podium plus model.
> DFP Podium & Podium Plus Custom Insoles
> ...


Hi Bro,

That insole is thicker overall than stock inserts and more so in the area under your heel. Unfortunately, that has taken you in the wrong direction.


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## kirbster (Jan 25, 2012)

So what am I looking for? Something thinner under the heel? My feet defiantly aren't happy with the sad excuse they include for stock inserts. From what I have seen ever aftermarket insole is thicker than what the manufacturer includes.


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## Wiredsport (Sep 16, 2009)

kirbster said:


> So what am I looking for? Something thinner under the heel? My feet defiantly aren't happy with the sad excuse they include for stock inserts. From what I have seen ever aftermarket insole is thicker than what the manufacturer includes.


Hi,

Yes. Minimal at the heel for sure. If you are decided on insoles, you will be looking for an insole that adds no height over the stock insole. Have a peak again at the diagram below and consider where your pain is and how lifting your heel cannot help but amplify that problem dimension. 

There are many variations of inserts and insoles. I would highly suggest that you stand on a bunch of them and find one that matches your needs.


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