# Splitboard touring Boots



## treehugger (Mar 21, 2021)

Whats everyone using for touring?
I got 32 TM2 Jones for Xmas. Best boot I've found. Based on TM2, very light with great flex and support. Vibram sole. Intuition liner. A velco strap that when released opens up back of cuff for touring. It also has heel and toe for crampons which unfortunately gets hooked up on my union resort bindings. Not a big deal and could be ground off if you don't need it.
22/23 catalog has a redesigned Jones TM2 and MTB. Past MTB was way too heavy duty for me. New one has a cool walk mode released by a boa. Can't quite figure out the TM2 version from the picture but it's quite different looking from this year.
I've also tried Burton Tourist and K2 Aspect but returned them. Tourist is really light and comfortable but didn't like how soft and thin the liner was and sticking was starting to fray just trying in the house. Aspects were really impressive quality. Great leather and construction, mountaineering vibram sole, and nice Intuition liner. Bit heavy and I couldn't find in my size or I would have kept them.

Hardboots vs soft?
Hardboots with tech toes are certainly superior for touring but then AT skis are even better suited to touring. I'm sticking with my comfy soft boots. Really wish someone would put tech inserts on a soft boot so I wouldn't have to stomp uphill with snowboard bindings on my feet. Sparks design is great but compared to my buddy on AT gear it's a very clunky setup. Anyone try to convert a soft boot?


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## Eivind så klart (Aug 30, 2020)

Would like to try a pair of hardboots once to see what all the hype is about. But for now i got a pair of DC something something BOA boots that i drove my car over a few times to get them softer.


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## deagol (Mar 26, 2014)

my current setup is a pair of Remind liners inside an older pair of lace-up Burton Driver X's. No Vibram sole or anything. It works OK, not stellar. Not great with boot crampons, but I seldom use those. I would also like to see some innovation on this front. I've never tried hard boots but have been with those that swear by them. The hardboot setup is pretty expensive from my observations. I'll just stick with what I have for now. Just yesterday, my Spark bindings broke on the skin-track. The plastic piece under the aluminum toe plate that hinges up broke and the bindings would not stay in the touring brackets. It ruined the day and my partner on skis was pissed off. He was cursing up a storm about how much splitboarding equipment sucked. His Scarpa AT ski boots have cracked twice and he is on his 3rd pair. Funny how he didn't mention that when ripping on my setup...


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## GregT943 (Apr 1, 2019)

I have the TM2 Jones boots and like them a lot. I only use them splitboarding, and use TM2 double Boa as my solid board boot. I haven't had any issues with my Sparks bindings or my boots yet. I have no desire to try hard boots.


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## Teacherman123 (Feb 1, 2021)

I just use my standard Vans double boas to fit my Jones Solution and Karakorum bindings. Has served me well over 40 times on the way up and down. I’m happy with them.


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## Elevation212 (Apr 21, 2019)

K2 Thraxis on Karakoram primes and jones solution 169w. I dig the thraxis for the stiffness uphilling and the internal cuff boa for keeping my heel planted, finally having vibram soles doesn’t suck when kicking about at the summit

Aspirational buy for me are phantom slippers to keep up with my AT pals


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## Etienne (Apr 2, 2021)

I ride my Vans Verse, which are good 50/50 (resort/touring). The added lateral stiffness is very noticeable compared to my old Malamutes (which weren't soft by any means). The double boa is pretty cool for tuning between the ascent and descent. The sole is not vibram, but still pretty good. They are a bit heavy though, which you can feel at the end of the day. And they really need to be broken in, like a good ten days before they stabilize in their flex and volume. Overall, not the gear I'm the most in love with ever, but really solid choice for splitboarding while keeping good freeride feeling on the way down.

I half regret not taking the Salomon Trek at the time, but they seemed too complicated. The people I've seen in the Fitwells swear these are the best boots ever, but they just look like hard boots to me. The ThirtyTwo Jones seemed way too stiff for me too when I tried it, but should be excellent climbers.

The hardbooters I have been touring with were just way faster and the more the conditions were shitty, the more it was noticeable. You also pull the crampons out later (both ski and foot crampons). They were not that convinced on the way down, but it seemed to be rideable, also you need quite some tuning to the boot (spring/lever). All in all, there is no magic: soft boots are better for going down, hard boots are better for climbing—but so are skis and skimo gear.


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## treehugger (Mar 21, 2021)

Etienne said:


> I ride my Vans Verse, which are good 50/50 (resort/touring).
> 
> I half regret not taking the Salomon Trek at the time, but they seemed too complicated. The people I've seen in the Fitwells swear these are the best boots ever, but they just look like hard boots to me.
> 
> The hardbooters I have been touring with were just way faster and the more the conditions were shitty, the more it was noticeable.


Seams like pretty much any boot will work and after buying splitboard, bindings, skins, poles, avy pack, transponder, probe, and shovel, it was nice to just use boots I had for resort riding. Adding hardboots wasn't even an option I considered. I still think a softboot with tech inserts could be best option.

I used Rome Guides for a year. Basically just a resort boot with good hiking sole and BC look. I think I got swayed by the look. Maybe I'll drill out the toes and convert to tech.

The Salomon Trek look pretty interesting. Would like to checkout in person. Fitwells would be a good choice if I was doing more challenging mountaineering accents, but I'm into mellow safe terrain so I can bring my dog. I haven't seen the model everyone was hyped about on their website anymore. They now have a freeride model specifically for snowboards. Anyone check them out yet?


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## Rip154 (Sep 23, 2017)

fitwell had the backcountry, which was stiffer. saw quite a few of them around. then they made the freeride which was supposed to be softer, more comfy and more boardfeel. they had boa lacing before, but now theres just the freeride with regular lacing. probably a really good option for splitboarding. for tech inserts you would need the whole sole of the forefoot to be hardboot stiff, like the teleboots, or it would just twist too much.


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## wrathfuldeity (Oct 5, 2007)

AT boots ftw. The ride down is better than my soft boots. If your ride down...sucks, it's you, the bootfitter that sucks or is just too lazy to take the time to get it right.


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## treehugger (Mar 21, 2021)

wrathfuldeity said:


> AT boots ftw. The ride down is better than my soft boots.


You ride Phantom slipper? They look nice. Very conflicted about trying them: On one hand they should make touring much easier, even allowing for a bit of kick and glide in the flats, reduced weight being able to carry bindings in pack, and adjustable pivot for true walk mode range. I'm sure the down would be fine. I'll go out touring for hours and end up with only 1000' vert so how important is it as long as it gets me some fun turns coming back down. I should point out I like to get out into wilderness not just yoyo laps. Then on the other hand skiboots suck and god dam that's gonna cost a lot! But I would certainly try them for a season if it wasn't such an expensive changeover. I wouldn't be surprised if I got used to them that I wouldn't want to go back. For now I'll just keep clanking around the BC and hope boots keep evolving.


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## wrathfuldeity (Oct 5, 2007)

treehugger said:


> You ride Phantom slipper? They look nice. Very conflicted about trying them: On one hand they should make touring much easier, even allowing for a bit of kick and glide in the flats, reduced weight being able to carry bindings in pack, and adjustable pivot for true walk mode range. I'm sure the down would be fine. I'll go out touring for hours and end up with only 1000' vert so how important is it as long as it gets me some fun turns coming back down. I should point out I like to get out into wilderness not just yoyo laps. Then on the other hand skiboots suck and god dam that's gonna cost a lot! But I would certainly try them for a season if it wasn't such an expensive changeover. I wouldn't be surprised if I got used to them that I wouldn't want to go back. For now I'll just keep clanking around the BC and hope boots keep evolving.


No slipper, they were not being made yet when I got into AT boots, but are essentially very similar with the mods. If you found some nos backlands, then just do the pivot buckle and the link levers they would be essentially slippers. Fwiw, have 2 demo pairs (essentially new) that were both found for about %50
My ongoing notes are below.

edit: Uphill touring, back when in 32's with Spark Afterburners on a factory c2btx billygoat split...certainly doable, but a pita...compared to the AT backlands, phantom binders and S-profile amplid. There is a lot more range of motion for gliding, the stride is un-restricted, the edge hold when traversing is locked in with very little ankle roll, kick turns are easy...touring will be fun or at least funner. Huge difference! If you touring a lot (or even just a little) or long distances, you will beat the socks off the soft booters with energy to spare.

The hardboot ride...downhill? | Snowboarding Forum - Snowboard Enthusiast Forums


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## treehugger (Mar 21, 2021)

One of my prejudices against hardboots comes from experience with XC BC touring: Leather boots are best while hardboots are hated for touring and only tolerated when touring for turns for better downhill control. AT being an even worst design to tour on just to be able to lock in heel, again just for the downhill. So my thought is why should splitboarders be using tech that was designed as a compromise for skiers to decent? Not arguing there's a better option just why adapt the worst touring platform from skiing?!! About as stupid as touring with snowboard bindings on your boots!


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## Etienne (Apr 2, 2021)

treehugger said:


> Seams like pretty much any boot will work and after buying splitboard, bindings, skins, poles, avy pack, transponder, probe, and shovel, it was nice to just use boots I had for resort riding.


At first, your resort boots are just fine. Then some latteral stiffness, wichever way you get it, is really a big plus.

The phantom link lever are really a huge plus for boarding with AT boots: Link Lever - SINGLE
There is a new french brand that has an interesting splitboard specific hardboot: Why Key Equipment — Key Equipment Don't know if it's any better than the Phantoms 🤷‍♂️


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## wrathfuldeity (Oct 5, 2007)

Etienne said:


> At first, your resort boots are just fine. Then some latteral stiffness, wichever way you get it, is really a big plus.
> 
> The phantom link lever are really a huge plus for boarding with AT boots: Link Lever - SINGLE
> There is a new french brand that has an interesting splitboard specific hardboot: Why Key Equipment — Key Equipment Don't know if it's any better than the Phantoms 🤷‍♂️


The Key boots look interesting, even more simple with the buckle and assuming velcro straps. Just emailed them to ask if they were heat mouldable shells.


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## treehugger (Mar 21, 2021)

Vans 22/23 Verse Range. Nice looking walk mode.


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## treehugger (Mar 21, 2021)

And to be fair 32 Jones MTB 22/23


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## Etienne (Apr 2, 2021)

Wow! If the Verse stays the same otherwise, that makes it quite the freeride/freerando boot! Damn, bought mine two years too early…


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## treehugger (Mar 21, 2021)

wrathfuldeity said:


> If you found some nos backlands, then just do the pivot buckle and the link levers they would be essentially slippers.





Etienne said:


> At first, your resort boots are just fine. Then some latteral stiffness, wichever way you get it, is really a big plus.
> The phantom link lever are really a huge plus for boarding with AT boots


In a crazy turn of events I just bought NOS '18 Backland Ultimates for $250. 80% off is hard to resist. My intentions were to start cutting them up and attach leather upper and tongue to create mutant touring boot. My wife (in her infinite wisdom) suggested I just try them 1st. Swapped out the liner and they feel pretty good. Not even sure they need any mods. Waiting on spark dino bindings to give them a try.


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## treehugger (Mar 21, 2021)

Backlands are really nice for touring. Ridiculous ankle articulation in tour mode. Super light, shell is 700 grams and 1000G with liner from my Rome boots. That's about 1/2 the weight of my Jones. I can motor in these things! Kick turns and edge hold is really good. It's what I expected but it's going to be hard going back to touring in clunky soft boots.

What I didn't expect was how they would ride. I know you won't believe me but they feel just like snowboard boots. Not even the stiffest boots I've owned. People say they need more lateral flex but I didn't notice. I have canted pucks so maybe that helped. It was just like using soft boots but with better edge control laying into a hard carve. I rode with normal stance +15/-3. Think they would really be nice +/+ for low carves. I was even slashing around on banks and they just felt like normal boots while riding. Of course they're ski boots which suck but they don't feel weird and hard like I expected. I had planned all kinds of mods but don't see the point.

I read a lot of posts on soft vs hard boots for touring. One thing I noticed was pretty much every hard booter switched from soft boots while the soft boots guys would never even try hard boots.

What I don't like:
They are ski boots and ski boots suck.
They look really uncool. Style matters.
They are comfortable but don't have that comfy softboot feel.
They are white plastic and look like they belong on Starwars storm trooper.
At the resort people think you're strange and avoid looking at you. This is actually a bonus.


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## Elevation212 (Apr 21, 2019)

Etienne said:


> At first, your resort boots are just fine. Then some latteral stiffness, wichever way you get it, is really a big plus.
> 
> The phantom link lever are really a huge plus for boarding with AT boots: Link Lever - SINGLE
> There is a new french brand that has an interesting splitboard specific hardboot: Why Key Equipment — Key Equipment Don't know if it's any better than the Phantoms 🤷‍♂️



Huh the disruptive is challenging my phantom slipper desire, any idea on the difference between the two systems


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## treehugger (Mar 21, 2021)

Elevation212 said:


> Huh the disruptive is challenging my phantom slipper desire, any idea on the difference between the two systems


I forget what boot the Disruptive is based on but my impression was it's not as nice as the backland which the Phantom uses. I like that the Disruptive uses a snowboard type tongue for soft boot like flex and that they are looking to blend in soft boot features on a hard boot sole. It is what I was looking for before I tried the Backland. Would like to try them just to feel how their concept works.


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## Etienne (Apr 2, 2021)

I think it's their own boot, design from scratch, not based on an AT one (I might be wrong though).


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## wrathfuldeity (Oct 5, 2007)

Elevation212 said:


> Huh the disruptive is challenging my phantom slipper desire, any idea on the difference between the two systems


Get a pair and give us the low down. A lot the boot looks good and actually the lever is my major question. Both the lean adjustment and the fore/aft give in ride mode.


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## wrathfuldeity (Oct 5, 2007)

treehugger said:


> Backlands are really nice for touring. Ridiculous ankle articulation in tour mode. Super light, shell is 700 grams and 1000G with liner from my Rome boots. That's about 1/2 the weight of my Jones. I can motor in these things! Kick turns and edge hold is really good. It's what I expected but it's going to be hard going back to touring in clunky soft boots.
> 
> What I didn't expect was how they would ride. I know you won't believe me but they feel just like snowboard boots. Not even the stiffest boots I've owned. People say they need more lateral flex but I didn't notice. I have canted pucks so maybe that helped. It was just like using soft boots but with better edge control laying into a hard carve. I rode with normal stance +15/-3. Think they would really be nice +/+ for low carves. I was even slashing around on banks and they just felt like normal boots while riding. Of course they're ski boots which suck but they don't feel weird and hard like I expected. I had planned all kinds of mods but don't see the point.
> 
> ...


Nice! I've thought it was an advantage to look like a kook and then blow past their sorry slow asses. They won't even dare talk to you in the lift line...let alone bump in to your board. "Hey brah how's dim softies work'n fo ya?"


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## Elevation212 (Apr 21, 2019)

wrathfuldeity said:


> Get a pair and give us the low down. A lot the boot looks good and actually the lever is my major question. Both the lean adjustment and the fore/aft give in ride mode.



Tempting, the nut knocker about hard boots is that the binding systems aren’t universal. If I could grab a system that would work for disruptors or phantoms it would be a lot easier to take the gamble on the boots site unseen. I worry that even with returns being an option I won’t know which boot is for me until I try a tour or two. It’s an expensive test!


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## Rip154 (Sep 23, 2017)

arent hardboot bindings all the same and adjustable?


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## Elevation212 (Apr 21, 2019)

Rip154 said:


> arent hardboot bindings all the same and adjustable?


I was under the impression they were different but perhaps I am getting wrapped around the marketing on each site, if they are the same it’s a much easier decision


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## wrathfuldeity (Oct 5, 2007)

Elevation212 said:


> I was under the impression they were different but perhaps I am getting wrapped around the marketing on each site, if they are the same it’s a much easier decision


The boots are universal, the bindings work with any AT boots (dynafits, backlands, phantoms, disruptors etc.) with tech toes and have the shelf for the toe and heel bails. The binding plates are what are different...how they attach to the board. Both Sparks and Phantoms work and both can do splits and non-split boards. But you have to pay attention to the exact pieces required for splits vs solid boards. A few years ago, when I got into this mess, it was a bit confusing...its better now. But if you have any questions, I'd be happy to help answer them.

Sparks Dyno DH and Phantoms work fine with the same AT boot. The Dyno DH are about half the price the set up for Phantoms. Phantoms are great...more adjustable (more parts), beefier and heavier. But Dyno DH are just more simple and less parts...but take a bit more to get them dialed in and the toe clamps are not as burley. However with some TLC attention they have been fine. For both systems the major (but minor) issues are....taking time to dial in the fit (its not just initial/one and done) and you have got to have the plate cleared of ice and snow when putting the boots in the clamps/bails.

Just a note about the Dyno DH...during my inbounds solid board testing, I came out of the bindings/bails several times and I had to keep adjusting the bail attachments shorter to be quite snug...and this is where a set of the toe bail/clamp levers failed. In part because I was not clearing the snow off the plate and the underside of the boot welt...just a little packed snow or ice...it really needs to be ALL cleared off. Once I've attended to this, there have been very little issue...but I did have to get a new set of toe bails and also had some welding done to beef-up the old ones.

The Phantom system does have more parts, but more beefy and more adjustability. Also the fitment, tolerances of the system are more tight. Which results in a more solid feel but also results in more fiddly-time during transitions and requiring more attention to get ice/snow cleared off of the bits to get things to fit back together. Which if its a spring sunshine tour...not much of an issue. But if its cold, howling wind and snowing...taking your gloves off to get everything cleared and fit back together its a pita.

With the sparks, you need the splitboard pucks (and a set of solid board pucks to ride your non-splitty), the climbing heel wires, tech toes and the Dyno DH plates (and the "D REX" crampons if you want). Ime, don't do the dynafit tech toes...because then you will need the adapter plates...just more fiddly parts.

As for long term durability a nod goes to phantom by a small measure...however you got to have a fair number of spare parts in the field, just in case. Sparks are certainly useable and work well, but I don't think will last as long. If sparks beefed-up and used a more hardened aluminum and did some type of ny-lock nuts (there is an inherent deficits ((and possible stripping)) when just putting bolts threaded into aluminum) and along with improving the toe bail levers...it would be on more equal footing with the Phantoms.

My 2 cents of having both. So I use the Dyno DH for solid board inbounds riding and the Phantom system for BC touring/riding.


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## treehugger (Mar 21, 2021)

Elevation212 said:


> Tempting, the nut knocker about hard boots is that the binding systems aren’t universal. If I could grab a system that would work for disruptors or phantoms it would be a lot easier to take the gamble on the boots site unseen. I worry that even with returns being an option I won’t know which boot is for me until I try a tour or two. It’s an expensive test!


Note: I was already writing this when I saw the wrath's post above which covers it pretty well.

I bought Sparks Dino bindings and they worked with my pucks setup for Arcs. I could get solid boards pucks for a resort board too but will stick to soft boots for resorts. Phantom bindings have there own attachment which is why I got the sparks. Cheaper and simpler. Didn't even look at weight difference since you carry them in backpack when touring. Binding are universal to any AT boot.

I don't have many days on the Dino's so can't speak to durability that wrathfuldiety discusses above. I thought they were easy to adjust, quick and easy to lock in, and very solid connection.


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## Elevation212 (Apr 21, 2019)

wrathfuldeity said:


> The boots are universal, the bindings work with any AT boots (dynafits, backlands, phantoms, disruptors etc.) with tech toes and have the shelf for the toe and heel bails. The binding plates are what are different...how they attach to the board. Both Sparks and Phantoms work and both can do splits and non-split boards. But you have to pay attention to the exact pieces required for splits vs solid boards. A few years ago, when I got into this mess, it was a bit confusing...its better now. But if you have any questions, I'd be happy to help answer them.
> 
> Sparks Dyno DH and Phantoms work fine with the same AT boot. The Dyno DH are about half the price the set up for Phantoms. Phantoms are great...more adjustable (more parts), beefier and heavier. But Dyno DH are just more simple and less parts...but take a bit more to get them dialed in and the toe clamps are not as burley. However with some TLC attention they have been fine. For both systems the major (but minor) issues are....taking time to dial in the fit (its not just initial/one and done) and you have got to have the plate cleared of ice and snow when putting the boots in the clamps/bails.
> 
> ...


Appreciate the write up! Per your earlier post I am at the “transition” stage of BC. Today I am running a Jones Solution 169w with a carbon karokoram prime binding/riser/pick set up. I use my K2 Thraxis 11.5s for both my splitting and solid set up and am beating the shit out of the boots outers and liners. This has gotten me thinking of getting a dedicated BC/Split set up 

The simplest move I suppose would be to consider a soft boot which is more AT friendly and leverage the Karakoram setup I have but I’ve also noticed that on longer tours (recently completed AIARE 1 so going further out) I’m falling behind my generally AT Ski touring buddies when it comes to technical ascents, pitched traverses and short downhills in touring mode. My competitiveness is rising and I’m wondering if I should just plunge into the world of hard booting to keep up with the skies jones.

From your write up the phantom setup sounds a bit more ideal, I’m 6’5 230-260 with gear and beefier may make more sense for me given the additional weight strain I’ll be putting on my rig.

What would you suggest for my scenario, as of now this would be solely focused on BC splitting as I have too many solid/traditional binding decks in the quiver to fully cut over (also not sure if I’m ready for my hard boot old man at the resort phase quite yet)

Edit: In a perfect world I would prefer a option with a bit more play when converting. I find myself getting mildly annoyed with my current set up when converting back to solid in deep snow, may have to do with touring with mainly skiers but i generally find myself the last to be ready to drop which again bothers me (I know I should seek counseling) but if
I could speed up the conversion and lock in process I’d see value in it


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## Rip154 (Sep 23, 2017)

You likely won’t speed up the conversion process any with hardboots, and the hardboots wear out fast enough, but they have their benefits. The skiing thing is hard when manufacturers set touring inserts way forward, but at the point when that is more important, should you look into skis instead? There are still some splits that are better than others for touring though.


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## deagol (Mar 26, 2014)

my 2 cents as a soft-booter who has toured mostly with skiers but also hard-booting splitboarders: Hard boot splitboarders, all else being equal, will be faster than soft-booters but still not quite as fast as skiers. It's been a while since I've been out with a hard-booting splitboarder, but when I did, the speed gap between them and skiers was less than the gap between them and soft-booters. Hard-booters were closer to the skiers in speed than the soft-booters were to them. YMMV.

I have a friend (who lives in CB) who has been a splitboarder for several years and I was always about 10% faster than him (an estimation, of course) but he switched over to AT skis on a super light tech setup and on a recent hut trip, he blew by me on the climbs and flats (which was the majority of the time).

I believe hard booting, as it continues to evolve, will be the future of splitboarding, but the $$ will slow the adoption of it. As for me, I have a dedicated pair of stiff softboots for inbounds and my splitboarding boots are a hodgepodge of new liners in old boots and stiffening inserts I had from older boots. I wanna try hardboots, but they most definitely are not in the budget for now and some time into the future...


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## Elevation212 (Apr 21, 2019)

deagol said:


> my 2 cents as a soft-booter who has toured mostly with skiers but also hard-booting splitboarders: Hard boot splitboarders, all else being equal, will be faster than soft-booters but still not quite as fast as skiers. It's been a while since I've been out with a hard-booting splitboarder, but when I did, the speed gap between them and skiers was less than the gap between them and soft-booters. Hard-booters were closer to the skiers in speed than the soft-booters were to them. YMMV.
> 
> I have a friend (who lives in CB) who has been a splitboarder for several years and I was always about 10% faster than him (an estimation, of course) but he switched over to AT skis on a super light tech setup and on a recent hut trip, he blew by me on the climbs and flats (which was the majority of the time).
> 
> I believe hard booting, as it continues to evolve, will be the future of splitboarding, but the $$ will slow the adoption of it. As for me, I have a dedicated pair of stiff softboots for inbounds and my splitboarding boots are a hodgepodge of new liners in old boots and stiffening inserts I had from older boots. I wanna try hardboots, but they most definitely are not in the budget for now and some time into the future...





deagol said:


> my 2 cents as a soft-booter who has toured mostly with skiers but also hard-booting splitboarders: Hard boot splitboarders, all else being equal, will be faster than soft-booters but still not quite as fast as skiers. It's been a while since I've been out with a hard-booting splitboarder, but when I did, the speed gap between them and skiers was less than the gap between them and soft-booters. Hard-booters were closer to the skiers in speed than the soft-booters were to them. YMMV.
> 
> I have a friend (who lives in CB) who has been a splitboarder for several years and I was always about 10% faster than him (an estimation, of course) but he switched over to AT skis on a super light tech setup and on a recent hut trip, he blew by me on the climbs and flats (which was the majority of the time).
> 
> I believe hard booting, as it continues to evolve, will be the future of splitboarding, but the $$ will slow the adoption of it. As for me, I have a dedicated pair of stiff softboots for inbounds and my splitboarding boots are a hodgepodge of new liners in old boots and stiffening inserts I had from older boots. I wanna try hardboots, but they most definitely are not in the budget for now and some time into the future...


I might end up going this way, 1 set of boots for inbounding and splitting is more wear then I want to put on them


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## treehugger (Mar 21, 2021)

Elevation212 said:


> The simplest move I suppose would be to consider a soft boot which is more AT friendly and leverage the Karakoram setup I have but I’ve also noticed that on longer tours (recently completed AIARE 1 so going further out) I’m falling behind my generally AT Ski touring buddies when it comes to technical ascents, pitched traverses and short downhills in touring mode.


Problem is there aren't any soft boots that excel at touring. That's what I was looking for when starting this post. I think my 32 Jones TM2 are as good as anything else. I hoped getting rid of the binding weight would help so I stripped down one of my arcs to just a toe strap with a voile strap around my heel. It was about 1/3 of the weight of full binding. While I could feel the difference it just made me realize how bad snowboard boots are for touring. Even if there was a soft boot with AT toe you would still be dealing with a bulky heavier boot that has a stiff ankle. Opening up the cuff like some of new touring boots help but not the same as articulating ankle of a hard boot which maintains lateral control.

As another option I started searching for mountaineering boot options and ran across suggestions for the Backland as an ice climbing boot that guys are going out on very technical hikes with, where ski touring is also required. So I checked around for a used boot I could carve up and got lucky with NOS Ultimates. I think any used ultra lite skimo boot would get someone started. Just need to swap liners from snowboard boots or buy pro-tour liners for $200.

When I started this post I figured some jerk would turn it into another discussion on the virtue of hardboot touring. Surprised I ended up being "that guy."


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## wrathfuldeity (Oct 5, 2007)

Elevation212 said:


> Appreciate the write up! Per your earlier post I am at the “transition” stage of BC. Today I am running a Jones Solution 169w with a carbon karokoram prime binding/riser/pick set up. I use my K2 Thraxis 11.5s for both my splitting and solid set up and am beating the shit out of the boots outers and liners. This has gotten me thinking of getting a dedicated BC/Split set up
> 
> The simplest move I suppose would be to consider a soft boot which is more AT friendly and leverage the Karakoram setup I have but I’ve also noticed that on longer tours (recently completed AIARE 1 so going further out) I’m falling behind my generally AT Ski touring buddies when it comes to technical ascents, pitched traverses and short downhills in touring mode. My competitiveness is rising and I’m wondering if I should just plunge into the world of hard booting to keep up with the skies jones.
> 
> ...


Knowing what I know now...I'd go right to AT boots and Phantoms. 

After finding AT boots fitment dialed were so great for riding...that's when I went for the Dyno DH bindings for riding in-bounds.

For moi, being older, its become more about just being out and minimizing hassles. Which not having equipment failure due to durability is a prime consideration. Besides there are many other factors to pay attention to. . Btw, skiers are always going to be faster.


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## treehugger (Mar 21, 2021)

wrathfuldeity said:


> Just a note about the Dyno DH...during my inbounds solid board testing, I came out of the bindings/bails several times and I had to keep adjusting the bail attachments shorter to be quite snug...and this is where a set of the toe bail/clamp levers failed. In part because I was not clearing the snow off the plate and the underside of the boot welt...just a little packed snow or ice...it really needs to be ALL cleared off. Once I've attended to this, there have been very little issue...but I did have to get a new set of toe bails and also had some welding done to beef-up the old ones.


Out touring the last 2 days after a foot of light pow couple days ago. After no issues riding at the resort, I noticed one of my boots was a little loose as I locked into Dyno bindings. Later I compared the 2 bindings and the shape of the rods are not exactly the same. Possibly I deformed it with it being too tight? I did a slight tighten with threads on rods and was fine next day out. *wrathfuldeity* do you think the metal toe/heel rods (bails) were bending on yours? I plan to bring something to shim around rod if it loosens up again when I'm out.

I usually tour solo but went out yesterday with 2 younger guys in their 20's (on soft boots). Being an older guy and being able to leave them behind was totally worth all the money I just spent! Haha. I did relax and slow up, but being fast is a real confidence builder with all the challenges you face out touring. Transitions were also faster even tho I'm not sure why. Riding down I'm past the point of even thinking about my boots. They feel great.

Now that I'm sold on this changeover, I wondering what to do with Sparks Arc bindings. Other than selling them I might get a short fat split for side-country and outer resort access where I will mainly be riding down and ease of touring won't be the priority. I can use Jones TM2 boots for resort and they are also nice hiking to outer areas. I would buy them again just for resort use.


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## wrathfuldeity (Oct 5, 2007)

treehugger said:


> Out touring the last 2 days after a foot of light pow couple days ago. After no issues riding at the resort, I noticed one of my boots was a little loose as I locked into Dyno bindings. Later I compared the 2 bindings and the shape of the rods are not exactly the same. Possibly I deformed it with it being too tight? I did a slight tighten with threads on rods and was fine next day out. *wrathfuldeity* do you think the metal toe/heel rods (bails) were bending on yours? I plan to bring something to shim around rod if it loosens up again when I'm out.
> 
> I usually tour solo but went out yesterday with 2 younger guys in their 20's (on soft boots). Being an older guy and being able to leave them behind was totally worth all the money I just spent! Haha. I did relax and slow up, but being fast is a real confidence builder with all the challenges you face out touring. Transitions were also faster even tho I'm not sure why. Riding down I'm past the point of even thinking about my boots. They feel great.
> 
> Now that I'm sold on this changeover, I wondering what to do with Sparks Arc bindings. Other than selling them I might get a short fat split for side-country and outer resort access where I will mainly be riding down and ease of touring won't be the priority. I can use Jones TM2 boots for resort and they are also nice hiking to outer areas. I would buy them again just for resort use.



Actually, this past Thursday, the first 20 feet after clamping in, I came out of the lead binding. Somehow, I think the whole bail attachment slid forward about 1-2mm. Was able to mellowlly cruise back to the truck, grab my Sparks tool and fixed it in 5 minutes by sliding one side for the bail attachment back 1-2mm and tighten everything down. No further problems and managed to get in 17k vert in 3 hours blasting bluebird packed groomers in slipper comfort boots . Was easily hitting 50+mph with ease, confidence and stability despite it only being day 2 of my fail of a season. The Dyno DH is certainly has more give, looser tolerances and less material than the Phantoms. The sturdiness or burls of the Phantoms is immediately noticeable when clamping in. 

Old age and treachery ftw! For me, the AT rig is a significant factor in the energy management game. Glad the boots are working out for you.


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## treehugger (Mar 21, 2021)

Another touring soft boot option with walk/touring mode released by BOA.


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## wrathfuldeity (Oct 5, 2007)

treehugger said:


> Another touring soft boot option with walk/touring mode released by BOA.
> 
> View attachment 162100


I am convinced that Backlands/Phantoms are more precise AND adjustable to almost any riding style/conditions than any soft boot...PERIOD. Just by using one or a combo of the following gives an extensive range of options whether going uphill or down hill. So the options for adjustment are: The top velcro strap to loose or snug for touring and/or riding, tongue stiffeners (or not...I don't use them) and the Phantom link levers for forward lean, touring and riding or non-engaged riding for a no-highback or no-binding pow surfing experience. Also the new and non/boa Phantom Slipper pivot ankle strap and buckle system looks like it can be dialed in for more tweaks and less hassle than the boa thing. These boots can be dialed pretty much on the fly with in seconds for touring and for riding. With all this and the ability to heat mould the shell...its the Frick'n Bomb...my humble 2 cents based on experience and worth every damm penny. Plus, easily takes 1/2 second to pop out when coming in hot for another chair assisted lap (this past thursday, was cruising in hot into the non-existent chair line and merely popping the rear binding toe clamp and going 1 footy while continuing to cruise in, stopping for a moment at the line for the chair to swing around and jumping back on the chair) and a couple seconds to clamp in at the top...no sitting on yer arse.

The few downsides are: Price of entry, they can be a bit cold...some neoprene boot/beer cozy in the pocket and if ur upside down in a tree well, they could be tough to get out of.


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## Etienne (Apr 2, 2021)

Are they from deeluxe? 

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## treehugger (Mar 21, 2021)

Etienne said:


> Are they from deeluxe?


Yes, Deeluxe next season (22/23)


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## treehugger (Mar 21, 2021)

All the new splitboard boots coming next year look to be focusing on better touring. Which is a good direction but the loose cuff approach seems like a half measure. Notice that Deeluxe adds a gator to the top of cuff. Imagine walking around in powder with your boots untied which is basically the current (and future) level of spitboard boot technology. I still have hope for an effective snowboard touring boot made mostly from leather, but I think the designers need to quit trying to adapt a reg snowboard boot and start from scratch. Start with a stiff hiking sole that has a tech toe and a locking pivot on the ankle. Attach a leather upper and dial in the flex while keeping it as light and low volume as possible. 

Hardboot like the Backland are tough to market to boarders but they already have all the features I think are needed for optimum touring. The (backland) design is geared torwards going uphill and as a downhill ski boot it is considered way too soft. Ironically for splitboarding the flex is right in the sweet spot which really makes it more suited to boarding than skiing.


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## dwhite75079 (10 mo ago)

Where did you find this picture? Also the 32 Jones ones for 22/23? I thought they were discontinued?


treehugger said:


> View attachment 161597


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## treehugger (Mar 21, 2021)

zuzupopo / Catalogues - zuzupopo







www.zuzupopo.com





22/23 catalogs. Great to check out whats coming next year before considering end of season deals.


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## kimchijajonshim (Aug 19, 2007)

For now I have everyday boots (Adidas Tactical) and split boots (K2 Aspect). I really would like a boot I could ride both inbounds and touring, but haven't found the right mix yet. Touring seems to prematurely break down the Adidas, while the Aspects are too heavy duty for 99% of my inbounds riding.

Aspects get the job done, but I'm not super stoked on them. They're stiffer than I prefer-- stiff is nice on ascent, but I prefer more ankle articulation. They're also pretty heavy and the paracord lacing / lace design is pretty terrible.

I'm mostly salty about what I see as a pretty major design oversight. If you look at the pic below, the boot has a power strap which doesn't actually wrap fully around and secure the rear neoprene zone. Basically the power strap barely works because it can't create secure tension across the entire upper. My suspicion is K2 did this to accommodate that over-engineered Boaconda dial.










On the plus side, they have a really heavy duty sole. That's nice when I'm hiking over sketchy sections, and dampens out a lot of that heavy duty metal feeling from my Sparks.


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## treehugger (Mar 21, 2021)

How are they for hiking? Could you put some hours on them on trails to get up to late season snow? I've used hiking boots for long hikes where the ride down is limited. My hiking boots don't have enough ankle support or height which really sucks for the ride down but certainly make the hike up more enjoyable. Would consider a mountaineering boot if there was one that improved the riding. Sportiva makes some boots that are interesting that have a tech toe for touring.


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## kimchijajonshim (Aug 19, 2007)

treehugger said:


> How are they for hiking? Could you put some hours on them on trails to get up to late season snow? I've used hiking boots for long hikes where the ride down is limited. My hiking boots don't have enough ankle support or height which really sucks for the ride down but certainly make the hike up more enjoyable. Would consider a mountaineering boot if there was one that improved the riding. Sportiva makes some boots that are interesting that have a tech toe for touring.
> 
> 
> View attachment 162642


Do-able but too heavy for multi-hour no-snow approaches, IMO. They're quite heavy. Old backpacking idiom is "1 lb on the feet equals 5 in the pack". That's probably a bit oversimplified, but roughly fair.

I personally generally hike with pretty lightweight shoes (typically Inov-8s), so the incremental space / weight of wearing shoes ain't too bad. The biggest thing is having to deal with snowboard boots awkwardly throwing off my balance. I've done no-snow hikes to riding peaks in these, but they're not meant for serious mountaineering... so depends on the approach.


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## Etienne (Apr 2, 2021)

Never had super long hikes before touring (the Alps are pretty much full of roads 😂 ), but if I were too I think I would go with the light trail-running shoes + snowboard boots option. Like very very light for the trail part and as soon as it becomes a bit snowy, icy whatever, back to snowboard boots with vibram, crampons etc.


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## treehugger (Mar 21, 2021)

kimchijajonshim said:


> I personally generally hike with pretty lightweight shoes (typically Inov-8s), so the incremental space / weight of wearing shoes ain't too bad.





Etienne said:


> I think I would go with the light trail-running shoes + snowboard boots option. Like very very light for the trail part and as soon as it becomes a bit snowy, icy whatever, back to snowboard boots with vibram, crampons etc.


Yeah, extra couple pounds for light hiking boot would be worth carrying for bare trails this time of year.

As the snow recedes here I'm more likely to just go for a hike and leave the split behind. In the past I would strap a board on just to get in a few turns on way down even tho my hiking boots are sketchy to ride in. If I was to need to bring splitboard boots too, might not be worth it unless conditions were really good. Will be doing some spring camping and deciding on if I should bring board and boots. If there was a mountaineering boot that was even half way decent for boarding I would get them next time I update hiking boots. I know some have recommended Spantik in the past. I don't know what they are like for hiking or riding and kinda pricey. No tech toe. 1260 g each.










Edit: After posting just realized the weight of my backlands and hiking boot would be about the same as just the Spantik.


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## 24david.hubbell (9 mo ago)

treehugger said:


> Yeah, extra couple pounds for light hiking boot would be worth carrying for bare trails this time of year.
> 
> As the snow recedes here I'm more likely to just go for a hike and leave the split behind. In the past I would strap a board on just to get in a few turns on way down even tho my hiking boots are sketchy to ride in. If I was to need to bring splitboard boots too, might not be worth it unless conditions were really good. Will be doing some spring camping and deciding on if I should bring board and boots. If there was a mountaineering boot that was even half way decent for boarding I would get them next time I update hiking boots. I know some have recommended Spantik in the past. I don't know what they are like for hiking or riding and kinda pricey. No tech toe. 1260 g each.
> 
> ...


These 2022-2023 boots from Fischer would perhaps be better than the spantiks. They use a new rottefella toe piece, but still carrying a clunky soft binding with you.


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## treehugger (Mar 21, 2021)

the xplore system is more for improved downhill tele performance for wider xc skis without loosing kick and glide of a lite binding. good system but not going to try to mount on my splitboard. i've heard that other xplore boots are pretty good for hiking and they kinda look like a low profile snowboard boot. might be worth a look

i've ridden in xc bc boots. about the same as hiking boots. i used to xc out to top of a ridge then just boot pack laps. of course now i just use my split.


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## DJ_Dup (8 mo ago)

Laterally stiff boots do make a différence on the uphill. Ive tried splitboard dedicated boots, their better for crampons but too heavy for my taste and the sole is so stiff you Loose a lot of board feel.
Ive tried hard boots too, fantastic on the uphill. Makes everything so much easy especially as Étienne says in the tuff, icy or steep conditions, but then they're horrid for the way down bit (and uncomfortable as hell)
Now I ended up riding normal stiff boots. Current ones are Northwave Domain...


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## Elevation212 (Apr 21, 2019)

DJ_Dup said:


> Laterally stiff boots do make a différence on the uphill. Ive tried splitboard dedicated boots, their better for crampons but too heavy for my taste and the sole is so stiff you Loose a lot of board feel.
> Ive tried hard boots too, fantastic on the uphill. Makes everything so much easy especially as Étienne says in the tuff, icy or steep conditions, but then they're horrid for the way down bit (and uncomfortable as hell)
> Now I ended up riding normal stiff boots. Current ones are Northwave Domain...


What hard boot did you try? I’m considering phantom slippers on a Cardiff goat but don’t want to sacrifice too much down hill feel


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## DJ_Dup (8 mo ago)

Scarpa Alien.
Never felt fully comfortable in them and total lack of board feel. But yes they're much better for the ski/crampons/uphill mode.
I know some People also use the phantom or some Dynafit . Also Gignoux now make some splitboard specific ones. Havent try them. Comfort and general feel might be better but i doubt the board feel is better. Also @ €1500+ price is a bit of a turn off lol


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## treehugger (Mar 21, 2021)

DJ_Dup said:


> Ive tried splitboard dedicated boots, their better for crampons but too heavy for my taste and the sole is so stiff you Loose a lot of board feel.


DJ brings up an interesting point. I would say if using a split (soft) specific boot is an issue you most likely will not like the feel of a hardboot. I always get a boot with a good hiking sole so I guess board feel isn't as important to me. Wearing a hardboot feels very different than softboots but once you get past that and just focus on turning I don't feel any issues. If you're into riding soft soled freestyle boots I would expect you wouldn't be a fan of hardboots. But for hard-charging turns they feel good.


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## Etienne (Apr 2, 2021)

Yeah, heard the same about the auto-crampon Northwave, 32, Scarpa: efficient but sole is too thick, you're super high on the board and loose some control. 

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## Rip154 (Sep 23, 2017)

Splitboard boots ride well with stiff uncomfy aluplate bindings. The boardfeel you get from regular boots on regular bindings can turn into pain on those, but that’s mostly the sole. 

To me the upper boot and ankle strap should be a soft flex for the way up, ideally free. Flexing that stuff can tire you out so much the ride won’t be enjoyable. This is a big part of what’s making hardboots good, nothing to fight while walking, but still stiff sideways. Though you need the exact opposite on the way down, so splitboarding hardboots are actually trying to move away from their good qualities. Just leaving the upper boot and ankle strap loose while hiking on softboots, and using a voile strap around the boot and highback kinda works, but nothing about splitboarding is ideal yet.

I was thinking maybe a lockable flextongue with a slider system, and a lockable sideways flex. Ideally a softer sole with a stiffer frame for plate velts and the dynafit walking stuff, but maybe it would be better to just use the plate for walking too. The lower part would need alot of prototyping to get right. I’ve done some thinking about it, but it would need it’s own production line, and probably looking at like 1000$+ even with a big company and big scale production behind it. 

Arcteryx/Salomon has something similar with the sideways flex because skiers want more of that on the way up, but it’s not alot, and needs to be locked for the way down, so useless for snowboarding.


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## Gregor Mahler (Jan 18, 2017)

Not sure I understand how you can compare the Deluxe boots shown above to the hardboots. 
The main point (or at least one of the many points) of hardboots is to have the pivot at toe point, rather than having the "whole clanchy binding" moving at each stride. I dont see this from the pic above. 
I read great things about the Phantom and have just now discovered the Disruptive (being in Europe myself, this could be easier to demo), however i think i will stick to my softboot setup for another year (northwave Domain + spark surge)


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## Elevation212 (Apr 21, 2019)

Etienne said:


> At first, your resort boots are just fine. Then some latteral stiffness, wichever way you get it, is really a big plus.
> 
> The phantom link lever are really a huge plus for boarding with AT boots: Link Lever - SINGLE
> There is a new french brand that has an interesting splitboard specific hardboot: Why Key Equipment — Key Equipment Don't know if it's any better than the Phantoms 🤷‍♂️


for your phantom slippers, do you find they size similarly to snowboard boots? I am a us 12 streetshoe 11 k2 thraxis and am considering a 28 slipper, is that the right ratio


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## Etienne (Apr 2, 2021)

I don't ride Phantom—nor any hard boots—personally, sorry! Just saying that all hard booter in my club are saying that the phantom link lever is a must have whatever the boot (sorry if that wasn't clear).


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## philw (8 mo ago)

Etienne said:


> Just saying that all hard booter in my club are saying that the phantom link lever is a must have whatever the boot (sorry if that wasn't clear).


I ride Carbon Atomic Backlands, but with those, I'd say that's pretty much correct.
The Atomic levers have two adjustments plus "walk", but neither gave me enough forward lean for my rear boot. You can ride in "walk", but that removes one important degree of action.
The Atomic levers don't provide flex. There's flex from other system elements (binding interface, how you adjust the front of the boot etc.

The Phantom levers solved (1) as their lean range is infinitely variable. The springs (2) provide an easily controllable _and linear _flex mechanism which doesn't rely on boot/ binding flex or adjustment. Completely separating the flex control from the boot fit (eg tightness etc), makes things simpler and super-comfy. Having used it, I'd want nothing else.


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