# Slipping on the heel edge?



## kyu7L (Jan 25, 2011)

Hello, first time post-er for a long time stalker of these forums. Thought I'd finally bite the bullet and make my first post a question to the generally well informed people of these forums. Any advice or information would be greatly appreciated. I apologize for the length of this post.

I currently ride regular on a 158 Rome Agent(185lbs @ 5'6). My board before this was a shorter 153 Rome Crail that was softer, as well as obviously shorter. No weight fluctuation occurred, just happened to use the height method before and bought the Agent used while using the weight method. I feel as if I'm an intermediate rider, who mostly rides mountain but likes to do a bit of everything on the ground and I'm interested in progressing towards park.

But here comes the brunt of the matter, this could all be skill and technique related, but I'm having difficulty adjusting to the new(er)board with my heel side when going down the steeper slopes. When I'm trying to transition from one edge to the next, putting my weight on my heels randomly causes my board to slip out from underneath me and I land on my rear end, so to counter this I started forcing the board to turn as in kicking my back foot either forward or backwards, as it seems to take too long to transition from one edge to the other. This makes all the steeps a bomb down the hill or nothing the only choice. Any know what might cause these issues? Simple control issues or something more?

I could get used to it, but as I will go be going to CO in the next couple of weeks and purchase a board out there while I'm at it. I thought I'd ask the pros if I should invest in a shorter board despite the weight or something with a bit more flex to learn to control it a bit better? 

I am thinking of the Neversummer EVO 151-155. (Long time stalker like I said, love all the things that its supposedly capable of) I'll probably invest in the Proto next season as well to replace the Agent as it seems around the same stiffness as the Agent.)

*In short:* I occasionally slip on steep slopes during the transition randomly, while on my heel edge making me swing my back foot to carve on the blacks. Any reason this happens? Could it be the length of my board that gives me difficulty? And also, interested in hitting park and playing around the mountain. I'm short and heavy (5'6 & 185lbs) and having strange control issues, 151-155 Neversummer EVO good choice? Or stick with 158?


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## wrathfuldeity (Oct 5, 2007)

Tell us more, riding how long, where, snow conditions, comfortable at speed, alright at straight line bombing....blues or blacks?

It could be that you are new to blacks and not comfortable with steeps and speed, thus trying to keep things in check by being too traverse or rushing the turns. Snow is a factor...if hard, packed, chopped or ice verses soft, untracked, or fresh groomed. Perhaps moving/shifting toward the tail too fast or too much, perhaps not sitting/dumping enough or not pulling up your toes. idk

However longer boards seem to want to takeoff or accelerate faster and are slower in turning...ie a bigger arch on steeps verses a shorter board will seem to stay under you and will be quicker to turn...ie. smaller radius...so it may be just an adjustment. With a bigger board on steeps it will want to do bigger arching/straight lining turns...thus speed and hang on. And on a shorter board you can pop from edge to edge and quick small radius turns...thus seemingly easier to control speed on steeps.

So it kind of depends on what you want to do...big straight line bomb or quick billy goat on steeps...both have their place that is somewhat dependent on snow conditions and skillz.


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## AcroPhile (Dec 3, 2010)

If you find it slipping out from under you on hard pack or icy conditions, it may be the 2 degree base bevel you have on your board. ... or at least a combination of base bevel and your riding style/ technique. Good for jibbing not so much on really steep terrain.


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## kyu7L (Jan 25, 2011)

Thanks for the feedback!

Good things to keep in mind, mostly ride hard pack or icy conditions given that I board mostly on the East. I generally ride blues/blacks and really have no issues with speed, except when it gets sketchy with the conditions as the random ice patch appearing is never a fun sight to me. I would prefer the "billy goat" style as I like to look for features to jump or different things to adventure. I am just trying to find a way to choose a happy medium between bombing straight down and bleeding out all my speed, as it feels right now that I have no choice. (I have no problems on flat level or slow rolling slopes, just the steep areas where I feel the need to bleed a bit occurs)

What is the 2 degree base bevel?


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## ginofultano (Feb 28, 2011)

If its only happening on steep runs, maybe your heels are touching the ground and lifting your edges. just a though.


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## Donutz (May 12, 2010)

kyu7L said:


> When I'm trying to transition from one edge to the next, putting my weight on my heels randomly causes my board to slip out from underneath me and I land on my rear end,


Does the board 'skip' or chatter before depositing you, or does it just slip like doing a falling leaf?


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## kyu7L (Jan 25, 2011)

Donutz said:


> Does the board 'skip' or chatter before depositing you, or does it just slip like doing a falling leaf?


After more consideration I believe it might be the slushy/icy conditions, still have no idea what exactly causes it. But its a sudden feeling of the board randomly catching and then it slips out like stepping on soap, so it may be my heel edge catching. Might need to reset my bindings to align with the board again.

Thanks again. Hopefully it'll get better with better conditions.


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## kyu7L (Jan 25, 2011)

Snowolf said:


> Need more info to really figure out what is going on here. When and where exactly in the turn does this happen? Is it at turn initiation, in the middle of the heelside turn, or near turn completion. Additionally, does this happen only when turning or is the board slipping out from under you in a heelside traverse too?


Sorry if I seem unclear about the matter, but it happens towards the end of the transition. To be as descriptive as possible, as I switch from the toeside to the heelside on quick carves, I'll transition my weight from the toeside to the heelside, and as my weight is about to finish transferring to the heelside, generally my backfoot or back of the board slips out. It generally isn't my front foot which feels strange but my backfoot at the end of the weight transfer. This has generally happens to me on a quick carving turns, I can't recall having this issue on a general heelside traverse.

I hope this information is useful in alleviating the problem.


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## mbesp (Jan 30, 2009)

If it is slushy out there is a chance you could be getting some heel bite.
what size boots do you wear?


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## kyu7L (Jan 25, 2011)

mbesp said:


> If it is slushy out there is a chance you could be getting some heel bite.
> what size boots do you wear?


I wear a size 7.5 boot.


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## mbesp (Jan 30, 2009)

kyu7L said:


> I wear a size 7.5 boot.


That pretty much eliminates the chance of any drag unless you have your bindings pulled way back for some reason.


It sounds like a technique issue. If the board has a 2 degree bevel as someone said that might be exagerating an issue in how you ride that was not bad enough to cause problems with a non-beveled edge.


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## kyu7L (Jan 25, 2011)

mbesp said:


> That pretty much eliminates the chance of any drag unless you have your bindings pulled way back for some reason.
> 
> 
> It sounds like a technique issue. If the board has a 2 degree bevel as someone said that might be exagerating an issue in how you ride that was not bad enough to cause problems with a non-beveled edge.


Hmm, may need to get a lesson and refine my technique a bit I guess. But just to ask before I do, what do you mean by binding pulled back? Probably not what you're talking about but I have those extend-able footbeds on my board which I've pulled out as people have told me it'll help with control. Or do you mean the location of the bindings themselves?


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## mbesp (Jan 30, 2009)

I was refering to the location of the bindings themselves. If you take off the foot beds and just look at your bindings from the top they should be more or less centered in the middle of your board from toe to heel edge.

I have seen some people on the hill who managed to pull their bindings way back or way forward so that they have a huge overhang over one of their edges.


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## kyu7L (Jan 25, 2011)

Snowolf said:


> Sounds like the stiffer board is less forgiving of what may be a timing issue. Unless you are truly carving your turns (no skid and allowing just the sidecut to initiate, control and complete the turn) you may not be using the front portion of the snowboard effectively to establish the turn and control the rate of your turn. In addition, from what I am gathering, you are loosing your balance and falling rather than a violent heel edge catch and slam?
> 
> Try shifting your weight a bit toward the front foot in say a 60/40 ratio when you go to initiate the turn and remember to use the front foot to twist the board so that the sidecut engages under the front foot first. In addition, try a sitting motion rather than a leaning motion and don`t forget to look over your front shoulder when starting the heelside turn. As the turn prgresses through about the halfway point, shift your weight back to center and even slightly aft for completion. This weights the most critical section of your sidecut throughout the tun.
> 
> In a skidded turn, the front foot initiates the turn and the back foot comes into play once the turn is established and helps complete the turn by pressuring the edge through the turn and keeping the entire sidecut working for you.



Thanks a lot everyone. Hopefully I'll be able to resolve this, might get someone to look over my riding so that I do that, and I'll keep what Snowolf said in mind. All useful stuff! Thanks again!


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## keyaspectsoach (Nov 11, 2010)

kyu7L said:


> After more consideration I believe it might be the slushy/icy conditions, still have no idea what exactly causes it. But its a sudden feeling of the board randomly catching and then it slips out like stepping on soap, so it may be my heel edge catching. Might need to reset my bindings to align with the board again.
> 
> Thanks again. Hopefully it'll get better with better conditions.


For starters, don't go worrying about your kit too much. Too many people fiddle about with their kit, thinking it's the reason for them falling over etc. For this instance, it doesn't sound like the kit at all.




kyu7L said:


> Sorry if I seem unclear about the matter, but it happens towards the end of the transition. To be as descriptive as possible, as I switch from the toeside to the heelside on quick carves, I'll transition my weight from the toeside to the heelside, and as my weight is about to finish transferring to the heelside, generally my backfoot or back of the board slips out. It generally isn't my front foot which feels strange but my backfoot at the end of the weight transfer. This has generally happens to me on a quick carving turns, I can't recall having this issue on a general heelside traverse.
> 
> I hope this information is useful in alleviating the problem.



Secondly: From your above quote you state that it's generally your back foot that goes. You also mention in your first initial post below, that to try and solve this you kick your back foot around. BIG NO NO... and here's why



kyu7L said:


> putting my weight on my heels randomly causes my board to slip out from underneath me and I land on my rear end, so to counter this I started forcing the board to turn as in kicking my back foot either forward or backwards, as it seems to take too long to transition from one edge to the other........
> , while on my heel edge making me swing my back foot to carve on the blacks.



By throwing your back foot around like this, you are moving even more weight than necessary onto your front foot. You wouldn't be able to lift you back like this is you didn't have all or (80%) of your weight on your front foot. 

Then when the board lands back on the snow (where ever this may be) on a patch or ice, a rock, who knows! You have 0 or very little control. Plus with all your weight still on your front foot, there is:

A: no pressure on the back foot to make the board grip
B: No edge angle either because you are probable worried about slipping out again so you dare not put an edge in.

No pressure = no grip, No grip = no slowing down and leads to slipping out with the back foot and ending up on your bum... 


I would highly suggest you stay off the blacks for now and go get a lesson. NOT from a friend but by a qualified instructor. Don't mean to sound to 'hash' but you'll only get yourself into bad habits which WILL slow down your progression and where you able able to ride on the mountain. Bad habits are very hard to get rid of. Around 3000 repetitions to get rid of a muscle memory, then another 3000 to set it back in again.. (you really want to do that many turns thinking about it....)

Yes, like Snowolf said earlier about weight on the front foot is good. But for the steep terrain your doing, this just leads to over commitment and far too much weight on the front foot and no pressure / weight and grip on the back foot, which is where you need it..! 

You're also making it worse by trying to rush it and kick the back foot around. (turn the board by design not by forcing it around)

For the time being though, just try riding in the centre of your board and stay on some nice blues.

Now off with you to snowschool....!


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