# Powder Freestyle Board--Never Summer SL??



## SnowBum (Sep 27, 2011)

I'm looking to get a powder freestyle board, and a guy at a local shop recommended the Never Summer SL. He said Never Summer has the best stability of all the dual cambers he has ridden, and that the SL has great float in powder and is damp. However, he has not ridden the Heritage. 

I consider myself an experienced freerider, weigh 160lbs, and my current powder/freeride board is a 162 GNU Billy Goat with traditional camber. My complaints with this board are that it is too big and heavy to easily spin and whip around in tight spots, and is a PITA to ride switch with in powder. I love camber, and want to keep as much of the stability and dampness of the Billy Goat as I can (it's a beast), but in a smaller package--which is why I'm looking at dual camber. I understand that rocker floats better, but I want stability when things get choppy and I have to carve my way from the lift to the steep and deep.

So for a powder freestyle board that will never see a single box, rail, or jib, but will see a lot of air time and steep and deep powder, should I get the SL or the Heritage? I ride at Kirkwood btw if anyone is familiar with that resort. 

Oh and, with either board I am leaning towards the 158--will that size provide comparable float to my 162 regular camber 'Goat?


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## grafta (Dec 21, 2009)

That board sounds huge for your weight. No wonder you have trouble throwing it around.

Camber/rocker hybrids are the way to go IMHO

I ride a 158 NS evo and it has a ton of float (I weigh about 170lbs) and it's not specifically a pow deck at all.

Don't discount any of the other brands, it often looks horribly like a Neversummer cult around here at times 

Sure others will chime in :thumbsup:


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## lonerider (Apr 10, 2009)

SnowBum said:


> I'm looking to get a powder freestyle board, and a guy at a local shop recommended the Never Summer SL. He said Never Summer has the best stability of all the dual cambers he has ridden, and that the SL has great float in powder and is damp. However, he has not ridden the Heritage.
> 
> I consider myself an experienced freerider, weigh 160lbs, and my current powder/freeride board is a 162 GNU Billy Goat with traditional camber. My complaints with this board are that it is too big and heavy to easily spin and whip around in tight spots, and is a PITA to ride switch with in powder. I love camber, and want to keep as much of the stability and dampness of the Billy Goat as I can (it's a beast), but in a smaller package--which is why I'm looking at dual camber. I understand that rocker floats better, but I want stability when things get choppy and I have to carve my way from the lift to the steep and deep.
> 
> ...


I spent 8 seasons riding at *Kirkwood*. Here is me riding a SL 155 down Upper Zachary off of Chair 6 (turned hard right getting of the lift, dropped in pretty close to the lift, drifted to the left a bit, then cut right got some air on the ridge that forms above the trees) and the cut right for big heelside carve.










In my opinion, people who complain that you are going too long with a 158 cm freeride/powder are just skaters kids who pretend to be hardcore riders on the internet. This is me riding a 158 cm board (at only 140 lbs) down the run directly under *Chair 4*, hitting a snow mound and going over (well almost over as I hit the top of one of them ;P) some buried trees.










Dropping some rocks under *Chair 10*










This is me riding a 160 cm splitboard over a rock drop at *Thunder Saddle*.










Anyway, back to the Never Summer SL. I have a 2009 SL 155 at 5'9" 145-150 lbs. While I wouldn't have described the SL as a *powder* freestyle board. The SL does float in powder (not as much as a dedicated powder board, but just about as good as a twinish board can get) is pretty damp and rides great switch. Here is a video of me video-ing my friend dropping into some powder off the Wave far rider's right from *Chair 4*. After this I dropped into the powder on my SL to follow him. So you can see the type of powder I'm riding the SL in (if you care he was riding a Burton Custom 156).






However... I actually still do boxes and jumps (more videos of me riding the SL). For riding outside of the park (no boxes), I wish the SL was just a tad bit stiffer between the bindings. For that reason... I suggest getting the Heritage 158 over the SL 158 since it is a half a notch stiffer and two full notches more damp (according to the charts on the Never Summer website). Here is a video me carving on the SL 155 at Squaw:


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## Richie67 (Oct 11, 2012)

I've been eyeing up the Yes Pick Your Line.


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## ETM (Aug 11, 2009)

lonerider said:


> I spent 8 seasons riding at Kirkwood. Here is me riding a SL 155 down Upper Zachary off of Chair 6 (dropped in under the lift, drifted to the left a bit, then cut right got some air on the ridge that forms above the trees) and the cut right for big heelside carve.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Nivek (Jan 24, 2008)

K2 HAPPY HOUR!!!!!!!!

That's it. Team driven powder twin.

Personally landing on center rocker in powder feels off to me. It sends me weird and I go super tail heavy. Flat makes more sense to me, but that's me I guess.


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## ETM (Aug 11, 2009)

The SL is ordinary in powder due to the stubby nose it has. I took mine to japan and it sucked badly, waste of baggage weight.


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## lonerider (Apr 10, 2009)

ETM said:


> Shameless motherfucker!


Lol... well for powder... you ride in Hokkaido that trumps my Lake Tahoe riding hands down.

For all the photos and videos, I wanted to show the OP the following things:

a) I am very familiar with the resort that the OP goes to.
b) I own the board I'm talking about.
c) I actually know how to use the snowboard I'm talking about to carve, jump, and ride boxes. I'm clearly not the greatest rider you've ever seen, but I'm not pretending to be something I'm not either.

Otherwise I could be like:



wannaberider said:


> Yo... get the Libtech Skate Banana 140 cm, that thing is crazy awesome butters, lets me land my 900s of of powder kickers super steezy, the bananatech floats more than a regular board so you can go 10cm short, and the edge grip turns ice into powder. Floats awesome too.. used it for the photoshoot that I did that made it into Transworld. Trust me, in 5 years... NO ONE is going to be riding over 145 cm in powder... NO ONE!


A while back, I used to just try and put my advice out there... only to see a lot of people (who I'm sometimes skeptical about) offer what I see are incorrect answers (I mean most of it is a matter of opinion base, but still) and dismissing my opinions. I figured a pictures worth a thousand words... and video is probably worth a thousand pictures (I do apologize to people who see my photo/videos OVER and OVER again... but each time it is a new OP and so I need to post them again for the OP to see). 

The big irony is that I have relatively few photos of myself, as I spent most of my time taking photos/videos my friends. Stuff like this back in the day:










Or this video I took more recently.






Half the photos I have of myself are from those "Photos on the Slopes" guys they put on the mountain (hence why it say "Proof" on a bunch of the images I posted). Most of the time none of my friends want to skip a run to take a video or photo of me. Occasionally friend is tired or injured and will once a season offer to take of photo of me riding (instead of the other way around), but then half the time they take a pretty crappy shot. If I'm lucky, I get 1 half-decent photo or video of myself a season (30-35 days). Which makes me wonder... if I can get maybe 1 good photo/video of myself a year... why do some other people never post anything. Do they not have anything to post, or are they not posting for a reason?


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## lonerider (Apr 10, 2009)

ETM said:


> The SL is ordinary in powder due to the stubby nose it has. I took mine to japan and it sucked badly, waste of baggage weight.


Like I said (maybe with the wrong emphasis). The SL floats ok in powder - but I haven't ridden any twinish board that does a great job at floating in powder compared to a dedicated powder board like the Burton Fish, Prior Khyber (similar in shape to Malolo), or the Never Summer Summit.

Update what did you mean by stubby nose? I have a 2009 SL and it has a standard nose, which is stubby compared to say big-nose powder board, but it isn't as short as the blunt-tips on say the Proto (I have a 2012 Proto).

However, these park-only kids (it's not like I'm not going to park a lot myself) don't know any better - and there are often at crappy little resorts... not like your Hokkaido.

Back to what board for OP to get:
If you want something more than just ok in powder... Maybe the Pow Stick or Sick Sick (I heard those was a twinish powder freestyle board). However those boards sound kind of crappy for freeriding (to be honest... the Burton Fish was really crappy for freeriding too, the Prior Khyber is so-so, the Summit is ok). I haven't ridden themself and so I can't comment much about them. I saw the title said "Never Summer SL" and I tried to share my experiences with that board to help other people decide.

Nivek is suggested a K2 Happy Hour (maybe that?)


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## Supra (Jan 11, 2012)

lonerider said:


> why do some other people never post anything. Do they not have anything to post, or are they not posting for a reason?


well, even though the OP is asking about Never Summer's, it seems that it's ok to suggest other boards.
My vote is for the Burton Sherlock. It's the ultimate powder freestyle board.


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## dreampow (Sep 26, 2011)

Of the two you listed the heritage and go with the 158.

Since you clearly said a freestyle oriented powder board (ie that does well in powder but also rides switch well etc) that looks like a very good choice to me.

I ride a 157 proto at 170lbs and love it in powder as long as its not crazy deep (40cm or less).

The obligatory picture.










That was in sidecountry and it was maybe 30cm of powder. I floated through easily with minimal effort even in these less steep areas.

ETM you are a Hokkaido powder addict:cheeky4:. While you are right that no twinish deck will perform superbly in powder, in this weight range the C2BTX gives really good float (not effortless but good float). Plus what they call epic powder is more like an OK day here in Japan. 

All in all I think you are in the right area with the 158 heritage:thumbsup:.
Of course there are plenty of other good boards you might consider too.


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## Supra (Jan 11, 2012)

dreampow said:


> While you are right that no twinish deck will perform superbly in powder


I beg to differ. Sherlock ftw


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## lonerider (Apr 10, 2009)

Supra said:


> well, even though the OP is asking about Never Summer's, it seems that it's ok to suggest other boards.
> My vote is for the Burton Sherlock. It's the ultimate powder freestyle board.


It definitely looks good in that video of yours. Those are some nice pillow drops and log drops at the end. I'm not familiar with the Sherlock... what about it gives it good float, the particular style of rocker shape?


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## hktrdr (Apr 3, 2012)

ETM said:


> The SL is ordinary in powder due to the stubby nose it has. I took mine to japan and it sucked badly, waste of baggage weight.


That is an interesting point. There are some people who make the opposite argument. For instance, on the Jones Snowboards site they talk specifically about how the blunted nose is better for powder (including for the Hovercraft, their dedicated powder stick).
Also, the NS Cobra has a blunted nose. 

I tend to think that a nice long nose kick/rocker is more important for powder capability than the shape of the nose.


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## Supra (Jan 11, 2012)

lonerider said:


> It definitely looks good in that video of yours. Those are some nice pillow drops and log drops at the end. I'm not familiar with the Sherlock... what about it gives it good float, the particular style of rocker shape?


the rocker helps the float obviously, but I think the side effects tech makes a big difference.


> Side Effects
> Lengthening the surface area at the tip and tail contact points improves edge-hold and allows the board to plane easier in powder. Enjoy a livelier feel and enhanced grip on groomers along with added float for overhead days.


Sherlock Snowboard | Burton Snowboards

I live in Japan and ride lots of deep pow. The Sherlock has become my quiver killer since it handles the pow like a champ, all with a freestyle shape. On the deepest day of the year, I was still riding the 160 with a centered stance (I normally ride a 163). Going into the steeps the snow was seriously nipple deep and that's standing on the board nipple deep!


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## dreampow (Sep 26, 2011)

Supra said:


> I beg to differ. Sherlock ftw


The sherlock may be very good, great even but nothing will be superb in powder unless its a pow specific deck IMO.

Like on days when its waist or even chest deep.

Having said that would like to have a ride on a sherlock as people say its a really fun ride.

Just watched your vid, yeah nice but I would cruise through that knee deep stuff just fine on my proto. On a powder board you would slay that run much easier with more speed and less effort.


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## Supra (Jan 11, 2012)

lol but the sherlock IS a pow-specific deck


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## dreampow (Sep 26, 2011)

Hey Supra,

don't you ride in Japan?

If you find yourself in Nozawa lets do a few laps and I can see what the sherlock is all about. 

By the way what length do you ride and whats your weight?

Still hard for me to believe it would compare to a prior or a hovercraft or a gentemstick or something like that. 

Still people once thought the earth was flat so I'll be open to the possibility.


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## Supra (Jan 11, 2012)

Cool. I had a gentem before - a 166 slasher - but I sold it. And I've actually got a pair of hovercrafts in front of me right now. A 160 & 156 lol. Weird boards - the 156 is huge - I bet it would float like a 160 fish.

I will try to get up to noz this year. Good dump in hakuba today, eh?


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## SnowBum (Sep 27, 2011)

Nivek said:


> K2 HAPPY HOUR!!!!!!!!
> 
> That's it. Team driven powder twin.
> 
> Personally landing on center rocker in powder feels off to me. It sends me weird and I go super tail heavy. Flat makes more sense to me, but that's me I guess.


I hadn't thought of that--it makes sense that a center rocker board would want to land on the front or back. I usually land on the back anyway though to keep the nose up...maybe that's not necessary with flat boards? How stable is a flat base--while I want the board for powder, realistically I'll be riding lots of chop, some groomers and bombed out landings. 

So it looks like the 158 heritage beats the sl for my purposes. Again I was only looking at never summer b/c a shop guy recommended them. How would the YES Greats and Pick Your Line compare? I noticed they have center camber but I have heard nothing about their stability and dampness. The Burton Sherlock sounds fun but I'm not stoked about the Channel...maybe it's worth putting up with?


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## Supra (Jan 11, 2012)

what is there 'to put up with' with the channel?


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## binarypie (Nov 29, 2009)

I'm not going to post a bunch of photos.

I ride kirkwood a ton! over 100 days in the last 2 seasons alone. 

At 160lbs a 162cm should not be too big for you if you are in shape and are an advanced/expert rider. I am 155lbs and have a 161cm board.

Now back to the debate at large.

If you are looking for more of a freestyle fun package I will suggest the following powder 'freestyle' boards.

Yes - Pick your line
K2 - Ultra Dream
Burton - Barracuda
Jones - Mountain Twin (arguably)


Since you want to spin and have more control I would size down to a 158 or so but I'll be honest. That 4cm is going to make that much difference in turning in powder/trees.

Just my 2 cents. Take it or leave it. I don't care.

See you at kirkwood  I'm up Wed through Sun next week.


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## JHeagz (Oct 21, 2012)

I'm eagerly waiting for my local shop to get my reserved 161CM Pick Your Line. After doing a ton of research I thought it had everything I wanted... directional board, big nose w/ a little taper to the tail and rocker outside the front binding for great float in pow, camber between the feet for stability and magne traction to deal w/ and ice you may come across by accident. Definitely a directional board, but I'm never riding switch for very long anyway. Can't wait to get out there. Very jealous of all you Kirkwood riders right now.


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## ETM (Aug 11, 2009)

hktrdr said:


> That is an interesting point. There are some people who make the opposite argument. For instance, on the Jones Snowboards site they talk specifically about how the blunted nose is better for powder (including for the Hovercraft, their dedicated powder stick).
> Also, the NS Cobra has a blunted nose.
> 
> I tend to think that a nice long nose kick/rocker is more important for powder capability than the shape of the nose.


A gradual upturn is what makes it work. The nose length can be short but to get a gradual upturn you will lose a fair bit of the effective edge toward the front to rocker ie. the rocker has to start near your binding. A long nose just helps you keep a longer edge in the snow so the board will handle on piste as well as off.


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## SnowBum (Sep 27, 2011)

Binarypie, I agree with you completely about the size--and that is why I will keep my Ride SPI's on my Billy Goat for really deep days when I just want to go fast and big. I have ridden that board for years in the trees as my only powder board, and I love how powerful it feels, but after weeks of riding a 156 Omatic Awesome (traditional camber) in the park waiting for a storm to hit it becomes apparent how much the 162 Billy Goat just likes to go forward and fast.

Do you really think the 158 won't be that much easier to whip around in the trees? Honestly that is something I am really hoping for, in addition to being able to ride switch in powder more easily and throw in a quick spin or log ride here and there.

As for my comment about the channel...I think what really makes me apprehensive is I have broken bindings by whacking them on rocks buried in powder and I wonder just how much abuse two screws and the channel can take... If it makes any difference I would be using adapter discs and not actual EST bindings. I'm guessing you don't have any complaints about the channel though Supra?


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## binarypie (Nov 29, 2009)

SnowBum said:


> Do you really think the 158 won't be that much easier to whip around in the trees? Honestly that is something I am really hoping for, in addition to being able to ride switch in powder more easily and throw in a quick spin or log ride here and there.


Look at the K2 Ultra Dream. 

I think this might be more what you are looking for.

If I could afford to have a freestyle specific powder board I would own one.

Twin tip.
Tips that will float for days.

If it is anything like my gyrator you'll never sink.

The trade off is probably edge hold and responsiveness on non-pow days.


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## Supra (Jan 11, 2012)

SnowBum said:


> As for my comment about the channel...I think what really makes me apprehensive is I have broken bindings by whacking them on rocks buried in powder and I wonder just how much abuse two screws and the channel can take... If it makes any difference I would be using adapter discs and not actual EST bindings. I'm guessing you don't have any complaints about the channel though Supra?



Nope, no complaints here about the channel. Going back to regular 4x4 boards sucks because I have to hope my stance width matches the holes. Also, there's no reason you have to get est bindings, adapter discs work fine. In fact, I much prefer burton reflex bindings to their est counterparts.

I rode the ultra dream and while I liked it, I like the Sherlock so much more. btw you won't be losing edge hold/responsiveness on nonpow days on the ultra. It doesn't have the gy's pow rocker.


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