# Sticky  A Dozen More Turns



## killclimbz

I love it that this one is coming around again. I posted this last year when it first came out. I forget if we had the bc forum then or if I just slapped it in general. An absolute eye opening video of what can happen when bad decisions are made. You just don't get buried, then your buddies dig you out, ha ha, that was a close one. One of the best videos about this sort of tradgedy out there. Thanks for posting this up.


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## Zee

It was very sobering to watch. They knew their stuff, but the human factor comes into play.


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## Guest

Not knowing much about backcountry and the dangers, this was very interesting to watch and find out how it can go bad.


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## Kanilas

Intense....


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## Guest

One of the best snow related videos I have ever seen.


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## SB4L

Thanks for this link - a film any BC user should watch and learn from.


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## Veccster

What a touching story. It had me gripped from start to finish. 

I hope his wife and son are doing well now 5 years later.

Thank you for sharing this!


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## cy bais

Thanks for sharing this video. This video renewed my respect in nature and not underestimate its powers. My hopes and best wishes to the family of Blake Morstad.


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## linvillegorge

That was a great one. With all due respect to the deceased, it sounds like this was a situation where the proper precautions were taken, the conversations were had, then a renegade member of the group (who also happened to be the most qualified and honestly, probably about as qualified as you can get - I mean c'mon, a graduate degree focusing on snow studies, how many people have THAT?!) chose to ignore those precautions and discussions to seek a sicker line.

I have minimal backcountry snow experience, but a ton of backpacking and general woodsmanship experience. Mother Nature is beautiful, enchanting, but that bitch will turn on you in a second and often doesn't grant second chances.


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## hi2u

very sad story, sad to see this mans friend die. Hope his wife and son are doing fine


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## Argo

These links don't work anymore. Any updated ones?


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## killclimbz

I think this is the whole movie.






It's a gut wrencher for sure.


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## ShredLife

TERRA 312: A Dozen More Turns – Part 1 | TERRA

TERRA 313: A Dozen More Turns – Part 2 | TERRA

TERRA 314: A Dozen More Turns – Part 3 | TERRA


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## ShredLife

jinx - you owe me a coke!


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## chomps1211

Wow!! I just finished watching this entire video! Definitely an Eye Opener for a Newb like me!

I haven't put too much time or attention into even checking out these kinds of vids or checking the various avalanche threads that get started. Not because I'm disinterested, but _Only_ because I really didn't anticipate needing to know much about avalanche safety in the near foreseeable future! I'm pretty sure It will be a quite a while before I ever have the opportunity to ride anywhere where I thought that could/would be an issue! 

Although, I seem to recall that It has been mentioned in some fairly recent threads that this kind of thing can still happen in and around resorts. Either people getting lost and/or deliberately riding out of bounds or even in "In Bounds, Slack country" (...if I understand the correct usage of that term!) 

I feel very deeply for the individuals involved in this incident, even though I have never heard of any of the people involved prior to today! Since I AM interested in progressing with my riding to the level where I would be able to ride resorts where this kind of terrain is available,... 

I can see it would be in my best interest to start paying attention to this _sooner_ rather than later!!! If something like this can happen to such seasoned and knowledgable BC skiers and riders? I should learn to be smart and safe right from the get-go! (....even if it is years before I actually get to experience BC/SC riding!)

Thanks for reposting this link!!!! :thumbsup:


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## snowvols

chomps1211 said:


> Although, I seem to recall that It has been mentioned in some fairly recent threads that this kind of thing can still happen in and around resorts. Either people getting lost and/or deliberately riding out of bounds or even in *"In Bounds, Slack country"* (...if I understand the correct usage of that term!)
> 
> :


Not to knit pick, but it is a common misconception for people if they ride the lift up even if they go out of a gate they will be safe. I ran into some kids last year that rode a slope from Solitude and they hit some line. I did an ECT before I dropped the slope and the slab fractured while cutting it with my saw. I asked the kids if they knew what they had any gear on and they said no and asked me how to get back to sillytude. 

That being said, the term slack country should never exist, IMO. Every thing outside of a gate is considered backcountry. Not trying to talk shit but more or less educate others.


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## killclimbz

I'll one up it. If a slope is steep enough to ride, it's steep enough to slide. Granted, avalanches don't happen very often in bounds, but they do. And in places you'd least expect at times. Holiday Valley in New York had an inbounds avalanche in 2006.

http://www.nspwny.org/mtr.htm

Not saying that you need to be worried about this everywhere you ride, but being able to spot warning signs may help you avoid an unpleasant experience...


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## killclimbz

Glad to know you can run a google search and figure out slope angles that most slides happens. Which btw the way I have said the same exact thing in multiple threads that you jus pasted. I don't need to do an in depth overview with every post on this matter. 

Guess I'll see you at CSAW next month? I'd like to put a face to the name.


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## Argo

I still have dingleberry #2 on ignore but it appears he has an axe to grind with you..... I will stick with steep enough to ride as a simplified term for slope angle in general conversations....


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## killclimbz

That is all it is. Which btw, most ski area slopes that you cruise are at are above 25 degrees. Of course I don't ride mid west backcountry so maybe I am way off in that regard. There are also slopes at just over 20 degrees that have slid. Generally spring time stuff. There was an observed slide in Utah from a few years ago. I want to say the angle was 20 degrees, but it was probably more like 28. I'll have to dig around and see if I can find it. Bill's statement was not incorrect, it seems that he is a fan of mine...

Generalization for sure. It does keep your mind on observing. Seeing as how some of the best consistently say this, and personally I find it as a valid reminder when out there.


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## walove

snowvols said:


> Not to knit pick, but it is a common misconception for people if they ride the lift up even if they go out of a gate they will be safe. I ran into some kids last year that rode a slope from Solitude and they hit some line. I did an ECT before I dropped the slope and the slab fractured while cutting it with my saw. I asked the kids if they knew what they had any gear on and they said no and asked me how to get back to sillytude.
> 
> That being said, the term slack country should never exist, IMO. Every thing outside of a gate is considered backcountry. Not trying to talk shit but more or less educate others.


is it controlled and patroled or not thats all that matters. i prefer hiking my bc turns more than going out a gate. I have more time to assess the snow on the way up, see how it changes with aspect and elevation and wind loading. I dont know that one pit at the top of the line will tell me enough about the whole line, and i dont want to stop on the way down to re evaluate, your committed at that point any ways.


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## killclimbz

walove said:


> is it controlled and patroled or not thats all that matters. i prefer hiking my bc turns more than going out a gate. I have more time to assess the snow on the way up, see how it changes with aspect and elevation and wind loading. I dont know that one pit at the top of the line will tell me enough about the whole line, and i dont want to stop on the way down to re evaluate, your committed at that point any ways.


Very valid. Too be honest does anyone stop to re evaluate on the way down? I can't think of any instance where I have. I can imagine with big enough terrain, the right type of terrain there might be situations where you would really want too. Risk vs consequence stuff. Not making a statement here, more of a question to discuss. 

Terrain is generally not that huge here and during the winter it is usually more dangerous up higher and backs off considerably as you head down. In spring it can flip but that is about it off of the top of my head. 

So experiences anyone? I generally deal with a continental snow pack and then some Maritime stuff for one week a season. Obviously, I have more experience with the former than the latter.


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## walove

A lot of terrain in the bridgers is more mellow on the ridge and the rolls over and gets steeper mid way down. In certain weather we get cross loading mid slope as well. 
There was a avy death in tunnel creek five years ago from a wet slide low on the slope, where snow was cold at the top of the run.


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## killclimbz

Still begs the question though, is it a habit for you to stop mid run?

I agree, my experiences in Washington have yielded similar results as you described. I set off a decent sized slide about half way down the south side of Heather Ridge. Definitely warming up as we went down and pop there goes the window pane. 

Stopping and re-evaluating didn't really come to mind. 

I've definitely ridden terrain you describe in the Bridgers. There are a couple well below treeline spots I will avoid because of that or similar dangers. 

So do you find yourself re evaluating at these spots or does it come down to the exact terrain selection at that time? For me, it is more likely the latter.


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## walove

Not so much but pay close attention to how the snow / sluff reacts while riding maybe a ski cut when appropriate, but as I mentioned earlier I try not to drop into slopes I didn't get to assess on the hike up. Which is why I don't ride really any backcountry out of resort gates. Not having a seasons pass makes me want to lap stuff inbounds when I have payer for a day ticket. Bridget bowl, big sky, and moonlight all have gnar runs that require a hike, but are inbounds and controlled by patrol. When I ride Stevens in Washington it is more tempting, I try to split across the street during the day, and lap the lifts at night. 

I am still deciding how I feel about the terrain at Stevens that is out of bounds but is controled due to the fact slides would run into inbounds terrain, such as the front side of cowboy, piste point, lower rooster, and the ridge that runs above chief bowl. I feel they are controled for the safety of those below me, not so much my safety.

(not sure where the thumbs down came from thumbs up :thumbsup: for BC turns)


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## killclimbz

I can understand that. It can also be hard to do that when you are doing a tour. Dropping several ridges in a day. I generally approach from the south and drop North facing shots. Stevens has a ton of that on Heather and Skyline Ridge. Such as Dark Bowl. You approach that from the parking lot and though you can take in a lot of info on the way there, not a whole lot is being told about the bowl itself until you are there.


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## walove

i agree that it can be difficult, i experienced this around heather ridge last year. We were dropping to the SE from the cell tower at the top of the road. There is not really a steep slope to assess right there. I was checking the snow at some of the road cuts on the way up, and on the NE facing slope at our drop in point, and didnt get any reaction. The run starts out in a mellow treed slope heading mostly east, part way down we would veer to the south, the terrain lower down was much steeper and into/across some gullies. I instantly started thinking "watch out things are changing" "terrain trap" I stopped the group and discussed what we were seeing. We agreed to traverse the gullies with extra wide spacing between us and found a treed rib to descend. 

In montana i find my self climbing very close to what i am going to ski, at least close enough i can go a little out of the way to get on and assess the slope i plan to ride. I am sure with more experience you begin to gain confidence in relating one aspect/elevation to another, but with the sporadic distribution of weak layers in our mountains i prefer to have a understanding of the snow i am about to ride.

another Continental vs maritime issue i've been dealing with is safe zones. Riding in montana i prefer to ride most slopes top to bottom and stop in a safe area at the bottom of the run, runs usually have limited trees and good visibility, communicating with your partner is not that difficult. In Washington a lot of riding is in trees but still avy terrain. You can loose sight of your partner in a matter of feet, and have limited visibility of the slope above and below. When riding terrain that is not familiar safe zones are hard to find/ decide on. Add in the tree well, deep snow suffocation danger and it is a interesting problem.


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## killclimbz

Yeah, I am definitely not familiar with Montana bc splitting. Would like to learn a little more first hand. Obviously I have a pretty good feel for Colorado. I am moderately okay in the PNW. Only so much you can learn from the three week long trips I have made there. I have some experience in the Wasatch. Montana like everywhere else seems to have it's unique challenges. Good feedback. Thanks!


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## walove

i've taken basic and lvl 1 avy classes here in montana. I am looking forward to take a lvl 1 in washington once i move back, maybe i'll be able to catch a seminar or presentation in washington this winter. (even better maybe get to put in a day with ale capone) My washington splitting consists of only a handful of days a year, i tend to play it extra safe, fortunately mellow pow runs seem to be plentiful in the cascades.


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## killclimbz

One bit of advice, I would skip repeating the level I unless it has been over 5 years. You have been out there. Take a II. You can do it in Washington or Montana. There is enough rehash to cover the basic level I stuff and then so much more.


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## Hasbeen

That video was heavy. 


One question that immediately came to mind is: Does your riding style need to change for the back country?
(eg..No heavy heel or toe edge turns/stops)


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## walove

Light and smooth, don't fall, getting hurt in the bc can be as dangerous as an avalanche. Weak layers are buried, you don't want to create unneeded impact forces. I dail it back considerably in the bc


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## killclimbz

Tbh, my style doesn't change a whole lot. Walove is right. If you are riding a chute, a big bowl, or something of that nature. Falling all over the place is going to have more of an impact. Meaning that if there is a weak spot you have a greater chance of finding it and setting off a slide. 90% of avalanche victims started the slide that got them. 

On the flipside, if I am out pillow riding, or cliff jumping, I am putting down some good impacts. Of course I should be pretty confident about what the consequences are in that zone. 

Back to the bowl or chute. I'll rip my turns in them, but I will not stop unless or until I've got a safe spot. 

Falling obviously happens and in some spots you may do it a lot. It comes down to what terrain you are riding and what the consequences are, in a nut shell. There are a ton of variables you got to look at for any day out in the bc. None of it is very hard and of course it gets easier with experience.


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## mhaas

If a fall or hard cut could trigger a slide on a slope Im riding, I don't want to be on that slope to begin with.

I also rip my turns in the bc because, well its super fun. 

But ya, getting hurt isn't something I want to happen to me or my buddies. I always look at the fall line and visualize what might happen to me if I fall and take a tumble.


And that video is heavy. The accident stories where people suffer major trauma have way more impact on me than the ones where victims suffocate. I remember the first time I read about a dismemberment somewhere in the PNW. I went to the library and got bruce trempers book a few days later.


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## killclimbz

Not disagreeing with that logic mhaas. There is always that chance, even after you've looked at everything and are confident in your decision. Falling all over is just not recommended. On any big line. Especially in a continental or even transitional snow pack.


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## mhaas

O I agree. Definitely not encouraging putting yourself in situations where you would be falling a lot. It definitely puts more stress on the snowpack than smooth turns, ie slope cutting suspected windslabs. I was just stating that Im not gonna get on a suspect snowpack that I believe to be stable only if I ride it perfectly.


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