# Carving hard with duck stance



## Balthasar Gelt (Oct 25, 2021)

I love carving and have been carving with an aggressive forward stance, at 36, 21. It helps me drive into those carves and pull off those eurocarves. And I’ve been learning how to butter FS nose roll 180, just like how Ryan Knapton incorporates those into his carves. But it is super awkward with my forward stance. So for this season I decided to go duck stance and learn switch and carving on switch. Should I go completely duck, at 12,-12 / 15,-15 or a bit directional, 18,-9? And for those who carve with duck, any specific tips you can give for carving? I always thought it could be painful for the back knee if you were to carve with a duck stance.


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## Donutz (May 12, 2010)

Leaving aside the carving question for a second, you don't need to go to symmetrical duck. I ride at +12/-9, which gives me all the advantages of duck stance when riding regular, and is still comfortable when riding switch.

But I'm very interested in the duck vs +/+ question for carving, since I've just bought a board that is made for carving, and I'm wondering if I should retrain myself for it. Looking forward to comments.


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## Balthasar Gelt (Oct 25, 2021)

Donutz said:


> Leaving aside the carving question for a second, you don't need to go to symmetrical duck. I ride at +12/-9, which gives me all the advantages of duck stance when riding regular, and is still comfortable when riding switch.
> 
> But I'm very interested in the duck vs +/+ question for carving, since I've just bought a board that is made for carving, and I'm wondering if I should retrain myself for it. Looking forward to comments.


Thanks, I might just do that, go a bit directional. For carving, I found it a lot easier to carve directional, since my knees point in the same direction. So I can’t really imagine how people can carve duck stance, it sounds unintuitive and uncomfortable. And most carvers I’ve seen go directional. Amazes me if a person can pull off extreme carving with duck stance.


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## MCrides (Feb 25, 2019)

I go +18/-9 and like it quite a bit as a carving stance. If width allowed I would probably shift the back foot 3-6 degrees more forward, but I don't do much switch riding so YMMV. My experience has been that the toe edge is empowered by a ducked rear foot and the heel edge is empowered by a forward rear foot.

I don't see any reason why it should be painful for your back knee, but coming from that kind of extreme +/+ stance you'll definitely have to get used to it. One thing to pay attention to will be really bringing your torso around on a heel side carve, which you don't have to think about as much when you're +/+.


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## Phedder (Sep 13, 2014)

I'm generally riding +21, -9 or +24, -6 these days with a fairly aggressive but also flowy carving style and a fair bit of switch riding. Yes you will feel some back knee discomfort if you try to carve with the same positive stance style or positioning. You can drive that back knee aggressively at times but it shouldn't be a feature of every single turn. 

I'd say the main difference I feel between a positive stance (fairly limited experience, maybe 10 days worth of positive stance carving) and a duck stance for aggressive carving is with the duck stance you can't 'Dive' into the turn as much as with a positive stance. Overall a bit less fore/aft movement than what can typically work comfortably with a duck stance, but that could also be a feature of stance width. I'm wider for duck than positive, I think most people are. 

For me, just carving definitely feels best with a mild positive back foot, but that positioning limits all other aspects of riding for me and I like to do a bit of everything on a run. For that reason the negative back foot just makes riding overall more fun. Easier to ollie and jump, easier to absorb harder landings off drops etc, easier to ride switch, easier to butter and spin. I take the trade off in carving ability for all of that.


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## Eivind så klart (Aug 30, 2020)

We are all different i see.. i have never "locked" my self in to any set angle. When i get a new board i step on it with out bindings to see what feels right and set the bindings from that.


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## Etienne (Apr 2, 2021)

Depends on the board mainly, some twins/directional twins carve real hard and are meant to be ridden quite centered on your two feets, some other boards just asks for positive angles (Koruas, those hardbooter stuff…). It's definitely more a freestyler kind of carving, but it absolutely works.

I actually think you should learn to carve with duck stance before anything. It's much easier to be centered and get low with good position. With positive angles it's way too easy to twist your body in weird inefficient ways. Something like 20 years ago, I had to "reset" myself by forcing me into ducking to +18/-15, learn to carve again and lose lots bad habits that were fashionnable in the 90s. Only later I went back to my normal +18~+21/0~-3, but with better form.

Ryan Knapton for example carves pretty hard with a duck stance. Lots of good tips on his channel. One of the Slice and dice guy is at 0 I think.


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## Snowdaddy (Feb 2, 2018)

Donutz said:


> Leaving aside the carving question for a second, you don't need to go to symmetrical duck. I ride at +12/-9, which gives me all the advantages of duck stance when riding regular, and is still comfortable when riding switch.
> 
> But I'm very interested in the duck vs +/+ question for carving, since I've just bought a board that is made for carving, and I'm wondering if I should retrain myself for it. Looking forward to comments.


You should absolutely ride the Cheater with +/+ in my opinion. I don't see any reason why anyone would want to ride it duck.


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## Snowdaddy (Feb 2, 2018)

Phedder said:


> I'm generally riding +21, -9 or +24, -6 these days with a fairly aggressive but also flowy carving style and a fair bit of switch riding. Yes you will feel some back knee discomfort if you try to carve with the same positive stance style or positioning. You can drive that back knee aggressively at times but it shouldn't be a feature of every single turn.
> 
> I'd say the main difference I feel between a positive stance (fairly limited experience, maybe 10 days worth of positive stance carving) and a duck stance for aggressive carving is with the duck stance you can't 'Dive' into the turn as much as with a positive stance. Overall a bit less fore/aft movement than what can typically work comfortably with a duck stance, but that could also be a feature of stance width. I'm wider for duck than positive, I think most people are.
> 
> For me, just carving definitely feels best with a mild positive back foot, but that positioning limits all other aspects of riding for me and I like to do a bit of everything on a run. For that reason the negative back foot just makes riding overall more fun. Easier to ollie and jump, easier to absorb harder landings off drops etc, easier to ride switch, easier to butter and spin. I take the trade off in carving ability for all of that.


Everything here just makes sense.

I tried to go back to +21/-6 when I got my First Call 151, since I wanted to ride it more "fun" and get more into switch riding. The problem when you are used to riding positive angles, is that negative backfoot just feels wrong on edge. The body is quite different between the stances. At least to an intermediate rider.


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## t-bizzy (Sep 13, 2009)

Horses for courses. I have different stances on different boards that I take out for different types of riding. First going +24/+6 on a very directional board didn't really take much adjustment after riding duck for the previous 20+ years. I'll still set up my twins at +18/-6 and don't find going back and forth takes any conscious adjustment.


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## robotfood99 (Mar 19, 2016)

Phedder said:


> For me, just carving definitely feels best with a mild positive back foot, but that positioning limits all other aspects of riding for me and I like to do a bit of everything on a run. For that reason the negative back foot just makes riding overall more fun. Easier to ollie and jump, easier to absorb harder landings off drops etc, easier to ride switch, easier to butter and spin. I take the trade off in carving ability for all of that.


Totally. I occasionally ride +/+ on some of my quiver boards but grinding to earn that one perfect set of turns bores me pretty quickly. And I love carving switch too much to go full posi full time.

My duck stances range from 27/-3 to 15/-15 depending on board and conditions. For someone coming from a forward stance, gradually easing into a directional duck would be the way to go. Knee pain shouldn't be an issue unless you try to twist way forward or tuck-knee like you would in a forward stance, so be wary of those.


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## NT.Thunder (Jan 4, 2020)

I changed my stance to +/+ for my carving board this season and made an incredible difference for me anyway.


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## Balinus (Mar 7, 2021)

Anyone using 0 degree on their backfoot? I was planning to do it this year (+18/0). Was previously +15 /-9. My board should be wide enough : 270 at the insert and 270 barefoot (or is it wide enough?).

Cheers!


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## Etienne (Apr 2, 2021)

Yeah


Balinus said:


> Anyone using 0 degree on their backfoot? I was planning to do it this year (+18/0). Was previously +15 /-9. My board should be wide enough : 270 at the insert and 270 barefoot (or is it wide enough?).
> 
> Cheers!


Yes, I do! I have been doing so on my freeride setups for a while now. Note that "true" 0 is sometimes -3 depending on boots/bindings. It gives me a good body posture in the steep or hard carves, but I can still get quite some power on the backfoot and the ability to open my back knee (does that mean anything?) for ollies, landings or just getting low and breaking when things are feeling bad.


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## Yeahti87 (Jan 17, 2019)

I’m riding all kinds of setups from 15/-15 to +27/+15 depending on the board, riding style, conditions etc.
For my daily twinnish rides it’s around 18/-9.
The folks have already mentioned the pros and cons of various setups.


Balinus said:


> Anyone using 0 degree on their backfoot? I was planning to do it this year (+18/0). Was previously +15 /-9. My board should be wide enough : 270 at the insert and 270 barefoot (or is it wide enough?).
> 
> Cheers!


My profile pic here is around 0 at the backfoot. That’s what I ride when I want to mix carving with some freeride without any switch riding.


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## Balinus (Mar 7, 2021)

Etienne said:


> Yeah
> 
> Yes, I do! I have been doing so on my freeride setups for a while now. Note that "true" 0 is sometimes -3 depending on boots/bindings. It gives me a good body posture in the steep or hard carves, but I can still get quite some power on the backfoot and the ability to open my back knee (does that mean anything?) for ollies, landings or just getting low and breaking when things are feeling bad.





Yeahti87 said:


> I’m riding all kinds of setups from 15/-15 to +27/+15 depending on the board, riding style, conditions etc.
> For my daily twinnish rides it’s around 18/-9.
> The folks have already mentioned the pros and cons of various setups.
> 
> My profile pic here is around 0 at the backfoot. That’s what I ride when I want to mix carving with some freeride without any switch riding.


Thanks for your answers 😀 I do some skateboard during the summer, mostly cruiser / longboard and my back foot is most of the time at a 0 deg angle. Hence why I will use that "near 0" angle this year.


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## Balthasar Gelt (Oct 25, 2021)

Phedder said:


> I'm generally riding +21, -9 or +24, -6 these days with a fairly aggressive but also flowy carving style and a fair bit of switch riding. Yes you will feel some back knee discomfort if you try to carve with the same positive stance style or positioning. You can drive that back knee aggressively at times but it shouldn't be a feature of every single turn.
> 
> I'd say the main difference I feel between a positive stance (fairly limited experience, maybe 10 days worth of positive stance carving) and a duck stance for aggressive carving is with the duck stance you can't 'Dive' into the turn as much as with a positive stance. Overall a bit less fore/aft movement than what can typically work comfortably with a duck stance, but that could also be a feature of stance width. I'm wider for duck than positive, I think most people are.
> 
> For me, just carving definitely feels best with a mild positive back foot, but that positioning limits all other aspects of riding for me and I like to do a bit of everything on a run. For that reason the negative back foot just makes riding overall more fun. Easier to ollie and jump, easier to absorb harder landings off drops etc, easier to ride switch, easier to butter and spin. I take the trade off in carving ability for all of that.





Etienne said:


> Depends on the board mainly, some twins/directional twins carve real hard and are meant to be ridden quite centered on your two feets, some other boards just asks for positive angles (Koruas, those hardbooter stuff…). It's definitely more a freestyler kind of carving, but it absolutely works.
> 
> I actually think you should learn to carve with duck stance before anything. It's much easier to be centered and get low with good position. With positive angles it's way too easy to twist your body in weird inefficient ways. Something like 20 years ago, I had to "reset" myself by forcing me into ducking to +18/-15, learn to carve again and lose lots bad habits that were fashionnable in the 90s. Only later I went back to my normal +18~+21/0~-3, but with better form.
> 
> Ryan Knapton for example carves pretty hard with a duck stance. Lots of good tips on his channel. One of the Slice and dice guy is at 0 I think.


Thanks for the insights. I should slowly change my angles towards a duck stance. And I do like to “dive” into the carves a lot. It’s Ryan Knapton’s awesome carving that makes me want to learn switch carving, hence the change to a duck stance. Actually surprised me to learn he rides duck. Well time for me to go back to the drawing board on how to carve.


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## Stevestuart (Oct 4, 2021)

Anyone watch this old vid of Knapton - stance angles.

Also for anyone talking about knee pain. I always rode with ++ angles but recently switched to duck and my knee feels LESS strain for whatever reason.


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## Jkb818 (Sep 28, 2019)

Stevestuart said:


> Anyone watch this old vid of Knapton - stance angles.
> 
> Also for anyone talking about knee pain. I always rode with ++ angles but recently switched to duck and my knee feels LESS strain for whatever reason.


Yeah my knee feels a little weird when testing out the feel of a ++ setup on my boards indoors. Not even on the trail. Having a bit of - on the back feels more normal. Probably cuz I’ve rode that way for almost 30 years 


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## NT.Thunder (Jan 4, 2020)

I found the opposite was for me in regards to knee pain. I like to get the centre of gravity real low and move weight forward when I carve and I find +/+ really helped me anyway, so much more capable and really helps with that push out of turns.


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## DaveMcI (Aug 19, 2013)

With a duck stance you need more hip flexibility to carve deep and strong. I think it's a dexterity thing. I board swap with my friend alot and he rides +21 +9, so I often give it a try. I'm +21 -6 and do ride switch with the wife and beginners. I prefer duck in all situations. I have good dexterity for now (cuz I'm a fuckin ninja). When I'm old maybe I'll change


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## Jkb818 (Sep 28, 2019)

DaveMcI said:


> With a duck stance you need more hip flexibility to carve deep and strong. I think it's a dexterity thing. I board swap with my friend alot and he rides +21 +9, so I often give it a try. I'm +21 -6 and do ride switch with the wife and beginners. I prefer duck in all situations. I have good dexterity for now (cuz I'm a fuckin ninja). When I'm old maybe I'll change


🥷


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## snowcepts (Oct 10, 2021)

Donutz said:


> But I'm very interested in the duck vs +/+ question for carving, since I've just bought a board that is made for carving, and I'm wondering if I should retrain myself for it. Looking forward to comments.


For others wondering, +/+ is ofc the de facto for carving. But it's not modern, and based mainly on the oldschool carving mindset of longer narrower directional boards.

There is a modern trend for volume-shifted carvers, shorter wider boards like what the likes of ryan knapton uses. There you find more of an asym duckstance, say +15/-9, (my initial guess trial stance for my Yes.Y, dialing in as I go). These boards are better dd for carving the trash/degen conditions of east coast. With a slight duck stance, they make for good carvers that can relax and butter somewhat, or ease knee strain for rad dads.

So tldr i'd say +/+ if you absolutely plan to only carve and the conditions are good and the board isn't volume shifted. For "mostly carving" but some reverse, butter, play and chillax - the volume shifted with slight duck is the modern trend.


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## lbs123 (Jan 24, 2017)

Nagaya Ryota from ToyFilms rides the duck stance, +18/-9. TBH, I prefer his style over Ryan Knapton's.


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## Snowdaddy (Feb 2, 2018)

snowcepts said:


> So tldr i'd say +/+ if you absolutely plan to only carve and the conditions are good and the board isn't volume shifted. For "mostly carving" but some reverse, butter, play and chillax - the volume shifted with slight duck is the modern trend.


I'm not disagreeing with anything you wrote, but would like to point out that +24/+3 isn't any less suited for a wide board than if you ride +18/-6. The leverage over the front foot shouldn't make that much of a difference, at least that's my personal guess. But ofc the more duck or positive the less momentum on the board.


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## Snow Hound (Jul 21, 2012)

lbs123 said:


> Nagaya Ryota from ToyFilms rides the duck stance, +18/-9. TBH, I prefer his style over Ryan Knapton's.


Whoa that's cool. I know one of the guys behind West, my good friend's brother in law. That board he's riding is a pretty conventional camrock directional twin. Nice board though.


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## Snowdaddy (Feb 2, 2018)

lbs123 said:


> Nagaya Ryota from ToyFilms rides the duck stance, +18/-9. TBH, I prefer his style over Ryan Knapton's.


Those groomers...


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## MrDavey2Shoes (Mar 5, 2018)

You can absolutely carve with a ducked stance. But you can also absolutely ride switch and spin/hit jumps with a mild ++ stance. Have you tried only going +5 on the rear?


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## Scalpelman (Dec 5, 2017)

I have two set ups. +24+6 for carving and +18/0 for playing around. But I’m old and have very little remaining ninja qualities. 


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## WigMar (Mar 17, 2019)

DaveMcI said:


> With a duck stance you need more hip flexibility to carve deep and strong. I think it's a dexterity thing. I board swap with my friend alot and he rides +21 +9, so I often give it a try. I'm +21 -6 and do ride switch with the wife and beginners. I prefer duck in all situations. I have good dexterity for now (cuz I'm a fuckin ninja). When I'm old maybe I'll change


Deep carving with duck stance demands a degree of flexibility I doubt I'll ever be able to achieve. I do yoga, but I've shattered my pelvis before. ++ made a huge difference in my carving- mostly because I'm able to rotate way more heelside. Heelsides are my favorite. If you can achieve the necessary rotation with duck stance, more power to you ninjas!

It looks like Ryan Knapton works on his flexibility a ton. Still, his heelside carves aren't as good as his toesides. He'll ride switch just so he can stay on his toes. I don't aspire to his brand of ballerina carving but it's very impressive.

I skateboard ++ both longboard and popsicle. I'll snowboard with anything from 21/6 to 48/36 depending on the board and my mood. I find backfoot at 0 overhangs too much. I prefer to freeride at 21/6. Switch feels fine to me at 21/6, but I don't spend a ton of time riding switch. Mostly just reverts and 180s.


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## 16gkid (Dec 5, 2012)

So for my morning board (Korua TF) I usually setup ++, these days that's like 27/12, for my afternoon board (K2 Niseko) I'll go duck 21/-12, doesn't really take too long to adjust, but I'm also super flexible.
To me, the biggest difference is getting air or hitting the jump line is so much more comfortable while you're riding duck compared to posi, I can't get my body used to leaving the ground with posi stance, but maybe I just suck 🤷


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## Jkb818 (Sep 28, 2019)

MrDavey2Shoes said:


> You can absolutely carve with a ducked stance. But you can also absolutely ride switch and spin/hit jumps with a mild ++ stance. Have you tried only going +5 on the rear?


Terje ran 21/9 so I think jumps and switch with ++ is possible. Wonder if he modified his stance when he won the Banked Slalom riding fakie.


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## Balthasar Gelt (Oct 25, 2021)

snowcepts said:


> For others wondering, +/+ is ofc the de facto for carving. But it's not modern, and based mainly on the oldschool carving mindset of longer narrower directional boards.
> 
> There is a modern trend for volume-shifted carvers, shorter wider boards like what the likes of ryan knapton uses. There you find more of an asym duckstance, say +15/-9, (my initial guess trial stance for my Yes.Y, dialing in as I go). These boards are better dd for carving the trash/degen conditions of east coast. With a slight duck stance, they make for good carvers that can relax and butter somewhat, or ease knee strain for rad dads.
> 
> So tldr i'd say +/+ if you absolutely plan to only carve and the conditions are good and the board isn't volume shifted. For "mostly carving" but some reverse, butter, play and chillax - the volume shifted with slight duck is the modern trend.


I actually got myself a volume shifted board for this year. Plan to go duck with that. As mentioned before I’m coming from an extreme positive stance. Might be awkward for me at first.




MrDavey2Shoes said:


> You can absolutely carve with a ducked stance. But you can also absolutely ride switch and spin/hit jumps with a mild ++ stance. Have you tried only going +5 on the rear?


No I haven’t, was planning on incrementing my way towards duck stance from my forward stance. Actually planning to dial it down from 36, 21 to 21, 6 then to 15, -6. I’ll see how 21, 6 feels.


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## WigMar (Mar 17, 2019)

Balthasar Gelt said:


> I actually got myself a volume shifted board for this year. Plan to go duck with that. As mentioned before I’m coming from an extreme positive stance. Might be awkward for me at first.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I've found that keeping the same degree of splay between my feet makes binding angle changes feel less dramatic. If you're comfy at 36/21, then keeping 15 degrees of separation between your feet will still feel comfy. 27/12 should feel really similar to 36/21, 15/0, and 12/-3. It's really only the angle of your hips to the fall line that changes. How open do you want your shoulders?

When going to ++ from duck, I had to get used to reduced splay between my feet. I also like around 12-18 degrees of splay with ++ angles. Many duck riders prefer up to double that splay.


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## DaveMcI (Aug 19, 2013)

A previosly broken pelvis would definitely limit dexterity. That would probably take years to get back 100% mobility. When I ride ++ I feel to closed up


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## Donutz (May 12, 2010)

I am going to take the opportunity with the new board to try out a more forward stance. But I have to admit I'm partial to +/- angles.


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## Balthasar Gelt (Oct 25, 2021)

WigMar said:


> I've found that keeping the same degree of splay between my feet makes binding angle changes feel less dramatic. If you're comfy at 36/21, then keeping 15 degrees of separation between your feet will still feel comfy. 27/12 should feel really similar to 36/21, 15/0, and 12/-3. It's really only the angle of your hips to the fall line that changes. How open do you want your shoulders?
> 
> When going to ++ from duck, I had to get used to reduced splay between my feet. I also like around 12-18 degrees of splay with ++ angles. Many duck riders prefer up to double that splay.


Woah thanks, I’ll keep that in mind. When I carve on +/+ I usually have my shoulder entirely in the the direction of motion. And depending on how I want to carve, my shoulders move accordingly. For quicker and shorter carves I keep my shoulders generally in the same direction and for more aggressive carves my shoulders change with the flow, as it’s my shoulders that initiate the carves. In the end it’s my hips that move in and out, while I keep my upper body above the board, and the +/+ stance helps keep my shoulder in the direction of motion.


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## nikvanstar (2 d ago)

Hello everyone from Turkey / Antalya.
I am from Russia / Moscow.
Have many skills in snowboard carving and ready to help with easy way of developing of snowboard carving skills.

About me:
Author and owner of
acarve.online

Author of creating OES TT (twin-tip snowboard)
Have many skills all over carving at all.

have ISIA Snowboard licence

This season going to live in Turkey, and will be happy to answer any questions

My riding examples are shown on my web 
acarve.online

Contacts:
Insta: nikvanstar
Phone +9O 536 O59 979O
I speak English and Russian.

****
Ride easy, stay safe.

Me riding a board year 2021:
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="



" title="YouTube video player" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture; web-share" allowfullscreen></iframe>


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## DaveMcI (Aug 19, 2013)

Keep that orange on so they know your a non combatant


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## Etienne (Apr 2, 2021)

+9/-9 … he's doing OK.


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## lab49232 (Sep 13, 2011)

Etienne said:


> +9/-9 … he's doing OK.


Who the heck is that?


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## WigMar (Mar 17, 2019)

lab49232 said:


> Who the heck is that?


Someone with smaller feet them me!


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## QReuCk2 (11 mo ago)

I do think both of them ride duck stances and they seem to do OK as well:


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