# Pow day set-back



## atr3yu (Feb 15, 2012)

Ok, so I ride a Ride Berzerker 158 and it has a 3/4" set-back already on the board when it is set up at reference, which I currently have it at. I have only had her out one deep day this year and I did have some issues keeping the nose up and non-steep terrain. I know lots of this has to do with my skill level as this is only my second season riding. None the less, people that do set-back a little further how much do you normally do? Tomorrow is a pow day for me so I want to do some tweaking tonight to be ready! Thanks guys and gals!


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## KIRKRIDER (Mar 18, 2008)

atr3yu said:


> Ok, so I ride a Ride Berzerker 158 and it has a 3/4" set-back already on the board when it is set up at reference, which I currently have it at. I have only had her out one deep day this year and I did have some issues keeping the nose up and non-steep terrain. I know lots of this has to do with my skill level as this is only my second season riding. None the less, people that do set-back a little further how much do you normally do? Tomorrow is a pow day for me so I want to do some tweaking tonight to be ready! Thanks guys and gals!


Set it all the way back. It will feel more surfy and unstable at seed for sure, but much easier in the deep.
What angles you ride with? I trend to mellow out those too on pow days. I found that +18 + 9 works great to load your quad and calf without straining your back knee too much.


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## atr3yu (Feb 15, 2012)

KIRKRIDER said:


> Set it all the way back. It will feel more surfy and unstable at seed for sure, but much easier in the deep.
> What angles you ride with? I trend to mellow out those too on pow days. I found that +18 + 9 works great to load your quad and calf without straining your back knee too much.


Ok, if I do set it allllll the way back I imagine I still try to maintain my normal stance width. I know that's a dumb question, but I asked it anyways. I usually ride 18, -6 I have never rode with a positive angle on my back foot before and it may be more change in setup than I can handle in one day. Thank you for the advice though.


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## KIRKRIDER (Mar 18, 2008)

Stance should be the same. Cool, keep your duck angle then. My point is that if you will be mostly loading your back leg, you want it to be in the most comfortable position ( pointing forward slightly)...but that's subjective.





atr3yu said:


> Ok, if I do set it allllll the way back I imagine I still try to maintain my normal stance width. I know that's a dumb question, but I asked it anyways. I usually ride 18, -6 I have never rode with a positive angle on my back foot before and it may be more change in setup than I can handle in one day. Thank you for the advice though.


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## Silver King (Nov 18, 2011)

KIRKRIDER said:


> Set it all the way back.


Maybe half of the way back and concentrate on body position. My Never Summer is set back from the factory too and if I stuff the bindings all the way back, my board rides like a 1986 Toyota pick up with two pallets of bricks in it on the groomers. Not to mention toe side turns are a chore. Incremental changes may have better results.


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## poutanen (Dec 22, 2011)

Yeah I'd say try moving it back to the next set of inserts, or maybe two sets. Keep the same stance width and angles...

Just my $.02 of course. FWIW I ride usually at reference stance locations in everything from hardpack to heavy powder days. It does get tiring on the back leg after a while...


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## atr3yu (Feb 15, 2012)

OK so I just set everything back a little, did not go all the way as that just seemed nuts to me looking at it. I ended up with a 21 3/4" stance centre to centre of the bindings. Centre of rear binding to tail is 17 3/4" and centre of front binding to tip is 21 3/4". So I ended up with 4" set back? Is that nuts? Or just ride it and good to go?


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## poutanen (Dec 22, 2011)

Actually that's only a 2" setback (as the centred stance would have them at 19 3/4" tip and tail)... That's pretty mild. I think my board comes with at least that on the reference inserts!

You could go another set of holes back for tomorrow. If they have tools at the hill you could always do a couple runs and swap them back further and give it a try. Only way to really feel a difference in setup is to do it during the day so conditions aren't a variable!

If you do, just make sure you either melt all the snow off and dry the inserts out prior to swapping, or scrape all the snow off and blow into the inserts to melt any snow and hopefully push the water out. Breath is warm enough to melt ice in inserts even out on the hill!


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## atr3yu (Feb 15, 2012)

poutanen said:


> Actually that's only a 2" setback (as the centred stance would have them at 19 3/4" tip and tail)... That's pretty mild. I think my board comes with at least that on the reference inserts!
> 
> You could go another set of holes back for tomorrow. If they have tools at the hill you could always do a couple runs and swap them back further and give it a try. Only way to really feel a difference in setup is to do it during the day so conditions aren't a variable!
> 
> If you do, just make sure you either melt all the snow off and dry the inserts out prior to swapping, or scrape all the snow off and blow into the inserts to melt any snow and hopefully push the water out. Breath is warm enough to melt ice in inserts even out on the hill!


Ahhh yes, I see what you mean. My math was a little off on that one for sure. It's funny that its only 2" as looking at the board it looks like a ton more...lol I think I'll just give it a rip as is and change it up tomorrow at the hill if need be. Thank you once again!


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## Triple8Sol (Nov 24, 2008)

This ^

I've always struggled with setting bindings back in a way the board isn't designed for. Tried it a few times and hated it, and really haven't done it since. Now I just keep a board in the quiver that excels at pow whether pow-specific or just one with great float.


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## atr3yu (Feb 15, 2012)

Well I spent 5 hours on the hill today with the set-back and I only nose dived once.... I got it on video, pretty funny. Overall I did enjoy the way it felt compared to leaving it at reference. The more I ride this Bezerker I am really thinking that I should have got a softer flexing board. I am not a terribly heavy person nor very strong for that matter. I am sure it will develop and it will bet better, but I do have issues flexing the board the way its meant to or at least that's what I figure.


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## KIRKRIDER (Mar 18, 2008)

Snowolf said:


> Personally I never change anything. Sure, it will give you a little more float but you can leave your bindings in the optimal spot to utilize the flex of the board most efficiently and use good riding technique to accomplish the same thing. It's all about front foot retraction way more than leaning back.



Explain? 
I remember my Arbor wanting to DIVE under unless i leaned back heavily , on deep days. on the other hand the same board all set back ( 6 cm more or less) floating much better and letting me enjoy longer days before leg burn. Sure the going was surfier, but in pow that's actually good. IMO


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## poutanen (Dec 22, 2011)

atr3yu said:


> Well I spent 5 hours on the hill today with the set-back and I only nose dived once.... I got it on video, pretty funny. Overall I did enjoy the way it felt compared to leaving it at reference. The more I ride this Bezerker I am really thinking that I should have got a softer flexing board. I am not a terribly heavy person nor very strong for that matter. I am sure it will develop and it will bet better, but I do have issues flexing the board the way its meant to or at least that's what I figure.


This is only your first or second full season right? If you stick with a stiff board you'll develop the muscles needed to manhandle it, if that's your thing... lol


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## atr3yu (Feb 15, 2012)

poutanen said:


> This is only your first or second full season right? If you stick with a stiff board you'll develop the muscles needed to manhandle it, if that's your thing... lol


First full season I guess, started x-mas eve last year. Yeah I know if I stick with it in the end it will pay off. I am thinking of picking a shorter softer rocker board for shit snow days to play in the park with though. We do have very few shit snow days over here though. I suppose that probably is the reason we got voted best ski town by Powder Mag.... :blink:


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## NorthCoastRider (Nov 19, 2012)

I ride a twin and moved both bindings back one hole from the reference stance. It floats the pow, doesn't nosedive and turns in trees quicker. I have left it there for the PNW (BC). 

The Bezerker already has a setback so don't go too crazy, one hole back on each binding to keep your stance. Or one hole back on the front if you want a narrower stance. It takes lots of leg muscles to ride pow.


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## Bear5001 (Dec 5, 2012)

*Agree with Snowolf*

Snowolf is right on. Ride it factory, not just to put yourself in the best position for flexing the board. Also it puts us centered on the sidecut which is very necessary for turning smoothly and efficiently. Especially on the groom, but really anywhere or any depth of snow.

However, I would also recommend playing with it, I would just recommend small changes at a time

Have fun


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## NorthCoastRider (Nov 19, 2012)

There are some disadvantages to moving away from the recommended stance. I find it harder to ollie with the bindings set back; shorter, stiffer tail, less leverage. I don't notice any difference carving groomers. 
But the main reason we set back is for pow and trading ollie power for quicker turning and more float on the nose is worth it to me.


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## dreampow (Sep 26, 2011)

I agree that for most conditions you can keep the reference stance and let it rip. On deep heavy powder days and where you cover large areas of gentle terrain a set back can help a lot. I would set all the way back depending on the board (posi camber).

Otherwise your back leg gets a much bigger workout than the front.

I set my proto just one notch back last time out and it really helped in the 1m deep pow I was riding. Could still carve really well on groomers too.


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## Zombaco (Dec 14, 2011)

Snowolf said:


> Personally I never change anything. Sure, it will give you a little more float but you can leave your bindings in the optimal spot to utilize the flex of the board most efficiently and use good riding technique to accomplish the same thing. It's all about front foot retraction way more than leaning back.


Quick thread hijack, seems topic appropriate-

Can you (or anyone else) explain what you mean by front foot retraction? I haven't had many powder days in my short time I've been riding (this is my 3rd season, ridden 45 days overall). I did get some knee deep pow first day this season and was struggling through my turns, fore & aft movements, and kept nose diving. I'm on a true twin cambered board with my stance centered. I was going to move my bindings back next pow day, but if there's a different method, I'm all ears.


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## 24WERD (May 9, 2012)

retraction means take the weight off the front.

or more like retract the foot or lift it up slighty


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## Bear5001 (Dec 5, 2012)

*Retraction*

When we first learn to turn we do what we call up-unweighting or most extended at edge change. This means we ride across the hill in a flexed stance and extend (or get taller) to unweight the engaged edge enabling us to transfer to our new edge then get lower throughout the turn, to then rise again for the next edge change...

Later we start to play around with down-unweighting or most flexed at edge change. This means we are riding across the hill extended or tall, and we flex (aka bend our knees & ankles aka retract our legs) to unweight the edge enabling us to transfer to our new edge, we then extend through the turn, to flex again. What Snowolf was suggesting is a strong retraction at edge change. Meaning ride tall across the hill and suck your legs up to you to enable the edge change. 

Watch some videos on down-unweighting or dynamic turns. This will explain this topic more, as there is a lot more to the timing of it. Such as changing your edge with the board traveling across the fall line, extend your legs laterally or across the hill, so that immediately after the apex (your board is just starting to turn across the hill) your most extended and you can begin flexing for your next turn.

Just some personal info, I ride a proto ctx 158, and I ride in centered in deep cascade concrete.


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## Zombaco (Dec 14, 2011)

Snowolf said:


> If you just ride "leaning back" you become very static; you cant really flex and extend as you need to for good turn initiation and completion.
> 
> Instead of leaning back to prevent a nose dive, pull the nose of the board up toward you which will cause you to bend your front ankle and knee. This is a retraction. I am sure you guys by now have done at least a few small jumps right? What do we do after take off? We suck our legs up to pull the board up toward us; this is a retraction often referred to as "raising the landing gear".
> 
> ...





Bear5001 said:


> What Snowolf was suggesting is a strong retraction at edge change. Meaning ride tall across the hill and suck your legs up to you to enable the edge change.


This is making sense now. I was trying to ride just leaning back and my turns felt very stiff and uncoordinated. And I actually was getting thrown off balance when making my turns from toe to heel, coming forward a bit off balance and nose diving. This was all in the knee deep pow on one particular run, which is probably 38 degrees. Although tomahawking is pow that deep is pretty fun too, I would like to just rips turns down. Other runs where it was ankle/calf deep, I wasn't focusing on leaning back while riding and had much smoother turns. I just assumed I should have moved my bindings back.

So a retraction of the front foot while initiating turns will help keep from nose diving, along with the normal dynamic riding is what you guys are telling me? I like the reference of jumping and one leg like an ollie, but instead of popping off like following through with it, I'm initiating my turn? How much is a rockered or a camber-rocker-camber hybrid going to help with this, compared to my current cambered board? I'm going to be demoing a few boards next week, so I'm curious what to expect. Although nature isn't going to help me with any pow.

And thanks for the help fellas :thumbsup:


Here's what I was trying to conquer in the knee deep, riding down just about dead center - Dragon's Back at Mammoth

Photo thanks to Mammoth Snowman, and is about 2 weeks after I was there.


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## mixie (Mar 29, 2011)

Zombaco said:


> Here's what I was trying to conquer in the knee deep, riding down just about dead center - Dragon's Back at Mammoth


whoa....I can't believe you put that many words into that one run down dragons back!!!.....Here is my version of that day "there was some pow and I made some turns and picked up way too much speed. Then I crashed real hard." sometimes I wish I could be so verbose about riding but i quite enjoyed reading your POV of that run. Oh except you left out the part about the sketchy as fuck traverse  

Maybe I would suck less if I could think about it more? But then again I get out there a lot more then you :yahoo: sorry  

Ive decided there's one answer to all of *my* snowboarding problems.

Get lower. Bend knees more. :laugh:


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## atr3yu (Feb 15, 2012)

mixie said:


> whoa....I can't believe you put that many words into that one run down dragons back!!!.....Here is my version of that day "there was some pow and I made some turns and then I crashed real hard." sometimes I wish I could be so verbose about riding but i quite enjoyed reading your POV of that run
> 
> Maybe I would suck less if I could think about it more? But then again I get out there a lot more then you :yahoo: sorry
> 
> ...


Lol... yeah when I actually tell myself get lower, bend knees more, then actually do it I ride about 1 million times better. By default I always end up with straight legs.


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## KIRKRIDER (Mar 18, 2008)

SnoWolf. Agree with your thinking about sidecut, BUT: (love to talk about this shit) if you look at an extreme pow board say the The Euphoria (or any Noboard) 










we have the sidecut opposite of a regular board, or in the case of the Hoverraft for example 










the tail is so short and stiff and the board so set back naturally that you will ride in the back no matter what and they are both pow specific sticks. 

My point is that when you are riding deep pow at a speed you should float no matter what position your are in. But at slower speed or on lower angle slopes, a set back will keep the nose up and, as I experienced on the JJ board, make it SO much easier and enjoyable. Either on 2 feet of fresh or on the same , later when i't s all trashed. The board on a wheelie trashes trough it instead of you having to lift it every time.

On the other hand I love to carve centered on both ( Arbor and JJ) on more firm and groomer days...to use and engage all of the sidecut the way it was designed to. 

Hmm...Maybe Saturday.


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## BigmountainVMD (Oct 9, 2011)

I usually rock the widest stance available (6'3" on a 157 or 161) so on powder days I just move the front foot back one or two spaces. I find I can put more weight on the front foot and it relieves back leg fatigue. I also find that a slightly more narrow stance makes the board more maneuverable in the deep stuff, since the nose is higher out of the snow.


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## KIRKRIDER (Mar 18, 2008)

Snowolf said:


> Couple of things on this. One is that a board that is manufactured with setback also is designed specifically for that and the binding reference points are matched with the flex of the board and the sidecut. There is a huge difference between a board designed to be ridden like this and just moving your bindings back on a board that is designed to have the bindings more centered. Sure, you can ride it and usually ride it just fine but it wont be quite as efficient and there will be some handling issues when you are not in deep powder.
> 
> Secondly, the retraction technique also works extremely well on a powder specific board with a lot of setback. It works amazingly well on a regular board too. Today, I was hitting deep (knee to waist deep) powder stashes and I am a 190 pound guy riding a 156 Gnu Billy Goat and never got stuck or took a single tomohawk.....:thumbsup:
> 
> @ Bear5001, Along with the retraction at edge change, I have also been having great success with using retractions of the front foot like this even when not changing edges but when I feel the nose starting to get "sucked down". Today was a great example of this when I was riding in the great powder off of Vista. From a technical AASi standpoint, I am not sure is this is "correct" but it sure seemed to improve my powder riding and you know how deep some of those areas were (waits deep wind deposits and as I am sure you heard, several of us got first tracks on Cascade when they opened it up at 3:00. I made 3 runs before the 3:45 lineup. Would like to hear your thoughts about doing this the way I was today...:thumbsup:


Nice! Forgot about this thread. I think that the board should still be balanced at the most setback position but you sure can feel the difference.


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## Bear5001 (Dec 5, 2012)

*Retraction*

If you feel like your about to go down, whether it's the nose diving, or other things putting us off balance, anything is acceptable to regain our balance... Maintaining fluid movements throughout every turn will help us not get off balance and remove the need for recovery moves.


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