# Union vs rome vs now vs bent metal



## frankyfc (Aug 11, 2017)

Hey guys. I ride a burton fish for Japan and previously a burton custom for elsewhere - however now sold the burton custom to get a non-burton Board the DOA or capita assassin. 

I did have est malavita’s which have been fine but I have never liked the toestraps - they always slip. Slip Worse than any other binding I have had. I think I now want a non-est binding so I can travel with one pair and both boards. So needs to be ics compatible. 


Aggressive rider, lots of freeride in Japan, lots of park in Europe. Groomers in both on both boards. 165lbs. Good rider. 

Was going to go with Union as fancied a change - probably the Union falcor? But since then since loooooads of threads with loose screws and broken Union highbacks. Also people saying never to get a minidisc union binding if you’ll use on an ICS Board - which isn’t good. Think it flexes weird and builds loads of snow?

An alternative would be the atlas which isn’t minidisc? Or the ultra but still minidisc and still Might fall apart as per other union users have posted. 

So maybe I need now bindings with a conversion disc? Or even Rome with a conversion disc? I had katanas but didn’t like that the side without the heelwrap could cause the boot to rise slightly out and to the side when charging. 


So Union falcor (? Too stiff, ? Union are poor build quality) vs Union atlas VS NOW bindings VS Rome katana or d.o.d or targa (if can find conversion disc). 
Needs ICS and non-ICS compatibility. 

Suggestions very welcome 
Thanks!!


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## snowman55 (Feb 17, 2012)

frankyfc said:


> Hey guys. I ride a burton fish for Japan and previously a burton custom for elsewhere - however now sold the burton custom to get a non-burton Board the DOA or capita assassin.
> 
> I did have est malavita’s which have been fine but I have never liked the toestraps - they always slip. Slip Worse than any other binding I have had. I think I now want a non-est binding so I can travel with one pair and both boards. So needs to be ics compatible.
> 
> ...


Katanas are mini discs also. Targas are regular size disks and probably fit your style of riding better if you go with the Romes.


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## kimchijajonshim (Aug 19, 2007)

I doubt broken high backs will be an issue with Union as long as you avoid carbon. That said, the loose screws thing is real. It's fine if you tighten up your hardware every few days but you need to be much more diligent about it than with other companies.

NOWs are great and I own both Pilots and Drives. However their ratchets are garbage and their straps are meh. Both have improved in recent years but they still aren't on the same level as the competition. That said the kingpin skatetech thing is the truth and I still ride them. I'd probably go Pilot for both freeride / park, Drive if mostly freeride.


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## frankyfc (Aug 11, 2017)

kimchijajonshim said:


> I doubt broken high backs will be an issue with Union as long as you avoid carbon. That said, the loose screws thing is real. It's fine if you tighten up your hardware every few days but you need to be much more diligent about it than with other companies.
> 
> NOWs are great and I own both Pilots and Drives. However their ratchets are garbage and their straps are meh. Both have improved in recent years but they still aren't on the same level as the competition. That said the kingpin skatetech thing is the truth and I still ride them. I'd probably go Pilot for both freeride / park, Drive if mostly freeride.


Damn. Yeah looks like I’ll be avoiding Union! I’m not up for tightening screws every few days. 

And whilst the nows sound good - certainly don’t wanna buy them with “garbage ratchets” etc. 

I’ll maybe look at Rome bindings if I can find an ICS conversion disc somewhere.


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## freshy (Nov 18, 2009)

I have Unions (Factory) and Now Drives. I have not had any issues with either. I usually do a tighten on all the bolts on the first wax of the season but there are years I forget. My point is in 4 or 5 seasons I have never lost a Union bolt. I can't be the only one.

I also prefer my Unions over the Nows for response.

Never ridden and Rome stuff. But I believe almost any high end binding will be plenty good.


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## zc1 (Feb 20, 2017)

freshy said:


> I believe almost any high end binding will be plenty good.


That's it in a nutshell. Pick whichever combination of strengths and compromises works for you and go with it.


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## SGboarder (Jun 24, 2012)

frankyfc said:


> Damn. Yeah looks like I’ll be avoiding Union! I’m not up for tightening screws every few days.


You're way overstating the problem. It is good practice to check your gear every few days regardless of what equipment you have.



freshy said:


> But I believe almost any high end binding will be plenty good.





zc1 said:


> That's it in a nutshell. Pick whichever combination of strengths and compromises works for you and go with it.


^^^ What those guys said.


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## sush1 (Sep 26, 2017)

To throw a curve ball, check out switchback maybe. 

I've owned some burton, nitro, union, switchback and I use the switchback the most and probably enjoy them the most. The latest year ones with the lighter base plates. Really good comfort and a quite locked in feeling I enjoy personally but others may not I guess. It's a minor thing but I also like how the high backs lock into place. The toe-straps are amazing and none of the straps have pieces hanging off when you ride which I think looks nice and might help them not catch on stuff. You also get crazy tool-less adjustibility and you can swap out parts, I have a high back for park and a stiffer one for all mountain/free-ride. Comparable to union for lightness.

As said above tightening union screws really isn't a big deal, you're waxing your board and tightening your regular screws occasionally anyway. I wouldn't let it put you off unions.


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## kimchijajonshim (Aug 19, 2007)

SGboarder said:


> You're way overstating the problem. It is good practice to check your gear every few days regardless of what equipment you have.


While I agree it's good practice, I don't think the Union-specific hardware issue is imaginary. 10 years ago I had issues with the adjustable heelcups slipping out to their max setting after a day or two on the slopes. The screws didn't stay tight enough to hold tension. I've heard anecdotally some bigger riders running into the same issue in more recent model years.

Last weekend I swapped boards with a buddy of mine running recent Super Teams for a run, the freaking ankle strap fell off on the medial side as I was strapping in. Thankfully it didn't happen mid-run. You can bet I cranked that screw down before that run.

Plus they released a split binding that you can literally move around while strapped in on ride mode... lax tolerances like that don't inspire confidence.

Mind you their stuff rides great and the guys I was riding with that day told me specifically they ride Unions despite the hardware issues because they love the bindings. But I've been seeing/experiencing that same complaint for like 10+ model years.


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## SGboarder (Jun 24, 2012)

kimchijajonshim said:


> While I agree it's good practice, I don't think the Union-specific hardware issue is imaginary.


I didn't say they were imaginary. Some of the hardware issues are real and I said so. But the impact of these issues is insignificant/tiny - maybe need to spend and additional 30 seconds a couple of times per year to re-tighten some screws while doing the regular inspection anyway.



kimchijajonshim said:


> 10 years ago I had issues with the adjustable heelcups slipping out to their max setting after a day or two on the slopes. The screws didn't stay tight enough to hold tension. I've heard anecdotally some bigger riders running into the same issue in more recent model years.
> 
> Last weekend I swapped boards with a buddy of mine running recent Super Teams for a run, the freaking ankle strap fell off on the medial side as I was strapping in. Thankfully it didn't happen mid-run. You can bet I cranked that screw down before that run.
> 
> Mind you their stuff rides great and the guys I was riding with that day told me specifically they ride Unions despite the hardware issues because they love the bindings. But I've been seeing/experiencing that same complaint for like 10+ model years.


If you ride enough and hang around snowboarding people/forums enough (and you and I obviously do) you come across anecdotes on pretty much everything. Cracked Burton highbacks, Unions straps/screws coming loose, shredded Flow cables, etc
Almost none of these are fundamental/serious enough issues (let alone problems) that should affect binding selection.



kimchijajonshim said:


> Plus they released a split binding that you can literally move around while strapped in on ride mode... lax tolerances like that don't inspire confidence.


Yes, as I have said many times the split bindings are shit. To be fair the system was 'bought in' and not developed in-house at Union. But still a poor decision to release those.


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## Decade190 (Feb 26, 2012)

SGboarder said:


> I didn't say they were imaginary. Some of the hardware issues are real and I said so. But the impact of these issues is insignificant/tiny - maybe need to spend and additional 30 seconds a couple of times per year to re-tighten some screws while doing the regular inspection anyway.
> 
> 
> If you ride enough and hang around snowboarding people/forums enough (and you and I obviously do) you come across anecdotes on pretty much everything. Cracked Burton highbacks, Unions straps/screws coming loose, shredded Flow cables, etc
> ...


the main difference here is that the binding section of this forum is literally plastered with loads of people with union product complaints. Screws failed out, snapped heel cups, twisting of the binding during riding etc.
Gotta tell you something at some point.


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## kriegs13 (Nov 28, 2016)

sush1 said:


> To throw a curve ball, check out switchback maybe.


not saying theyre my favorite binding, but they definitely dont get enough love. toe straps rivaled only by flux imho and the ankle straps may not be hammock/waffle/frenchtoast/whateva but they are comfy as shit. im interested in trying out one of the more stiff highbacks in the future



Decade190 said:


> the main difference here is that the binding section of this forum is literally plastered with loads of people with union product complaints. Screws failed out, snapped heel cups, twisting of the binding during riding etc.
> Gotta tell you something at some point.


its not just this forum. its a common "anecdote" all over the webs and one of the few mythical occurrences that i have personally seen and experienced on the hill on multiple occasions. Union is working to fix it and next years strap hardware seems to have fixed the issue. still kinda hilarious that people act as though this isnt an issue from the get go as opposed to "use error." Just like burton ratchets freezing more often than others...its real. yes, everyone should check their shit on a regular basis and yes the situation is avoidable (at least straps...binding movement with the mini disc is a whole different situation) but I have gone multiple seasons in my early days on multiple other company's bindings without even single checking my hardware and had no such issues. Liquid seemed to have it down...


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## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

Yeah I definitely have a couple of buddies who constantly complain and struggle with the Union bolts getting loose, or the straps not fitting bulky boots. But others have no problems with Unions.

Same with Now. Some people have some issues, others don't. Nothing has broken off from my Now Pilots or Drives in over 3 yrs, but the toe buckles got "tired" and became sloppy. They still ratchet and hold ok. I got spares, but haven't even bothered to switch them... Not much of an issue for me.

Flux are really well made. I hate their footbeds though... ZERO cushioning.

I've had and tried a few others.... and like the guys have said, most decent bindings will be fine. The Union bolts coming loose - if it even does happen to you, I'm sure it's like a 5min fix with loctite, through Union warranty or with a washer or something like that.

I had Ride hardware loosening up on my Capos while riding. Switched the screws to those Burton screws with the nylon ribbon and never again...

That said... Burton Genesis and Genesis X. Damn, I love those bindings.


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## Seppuccu (Dec 4, 2012)

frankyfc said:


> I did have est malavita’s which have been fine but I have never liked the toestraps - they always slip.


What version of the toestraps? Personally I think at least the Gettagrip toestraps stay in place better than other toestraps I've used or tried. Too big bindings?


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## kimchijajonshim (Aug 19, 2007)

SGboarder said:


> If you ride enough and hang around snowboarding people/forums enough (and you and I obviously do) you come across anecdotes on pretty much everything. Cracked Burton highbacks, Unions straps/screws coming loose, shredded Flow cables, etc
> Almost none of these are fundamental/serious enough issues (let alone problems) that should affect binding selection.


I'm actually on the opposite side of this. I think as people who ride a lot and hang around snowboarding scene, we're in a better position than most to gauge what's a real issue and what's isolated bad luck. When I know 3 people who've broken their Spring Break Tree Hunters and posts from a handful of others, all with the break in the exact same place... I get to thinking maybe balsa ain't such a good material for snowboard cores.

As for whether or not it's a serious enough issue to deter purchase, that's up to the consumer but should be known up front. For me, I don't love the way Unions ride enough to deal with having to be OCD with screws, while I do love NOWs enough to deal with meh straps and crappy ratchets. But I have plenty of buddies (including the guy whose Super Team ankle strap fell off on me) who rep Union despite the hardware thing.



SGboarder said:


> Yes, as I have said many times the split bindings are shit. To be fair the system was 'bought in' and not developed in-house at Union. *But still a poor decision to release those.*


Regardless of who developed the tech, the poor decision part is at the crux of it for me. Someone at Union took a look at the binding play and said 'eh, good enough'. Relatedly (not Union, but within the C3), I've read a handful of reviews/riding reports stating they the hardware on their Neo Slasher split isn't up to par. In general C3's ride quality is impeccable, but stuff like that really makes me question their manufacturing tolerances and what they're willing to put to market.


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## zc1 (Feb 20, 2017)

kimchijajonshim said:


> I'm actually on the opposite side of this. I think as people who ride a lot and hang around snowboarding scene, we're in a better position than most to gauge what's a real issue and what's isolated bad luck. When I know 3 people who've broken their Spring Break Tree Hunters and posts from a handful of others, all with the break in the exact same place... I get to thinking maybe balsa ain't such a good material for snowboard cores.
> 
> As for whether or not it's a serious enough issue to deter purchase, that's up to the consumer but should be known up front. For me, I don't love the way Unions ride enough to deal with having to be OCD with screws, while I do love NOWs enough to deal with meh straps and crappy ratchets. But I have plenty of buddies (including the guy whose Super Team ankle strap fell off on me) who rep Union despite the hardware thing.
> 
> Regardless of who developed the tech, the poor decision part is at the crux of it for me. Someone at Union took a look at the binding play and said 'eh, good enough'. Relatedly (not Union, but within the C3), I've read a handful of reviews/riding reports stating they the hardware on their Neo Slasher split isn't up to par. In general C3's ride quality is impeccable, but stuff like that really makes me question their manufacturing tolerances and what they're willing to put to market.


The forums are skewed. Not just these ones. Forums in general. People who have problems go online and look for solutions as well as post about problems moreso than people who love their products go online to rave about them. If you read through the panic threads, there are actually more people *looking for info/feedback* about the bindings than there are people posting about the problems that they have had with them. Funny enough, much of the fire-stoking hyperbole is from people who don't own and haven't tried the bindings. 

I've had several sets of Union bindings as well, and only had a problem with one of them. I agree the problems do exist, but in most cases they are a nuisance. I've had problems with other bindings as well. What constitutes a problem that one can look past, as you mentioned, varies from person to person.

The important thing is to not overstate the problems -- avoid the panic-stoking exaggeration, etc. If there was a significant safety issue there would be a recall. Really. Most of the problems are annoying to varying degrees, but avoidable with a bit of diligence. Again, whether the extra diligence is worth the return is a personal decision.


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## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

zc1 said:


> The forums are skewed. Not just these ones. Forums in general. People who have problems go online and look for solutions as well as post about problems moreso than people who love their products go online to rave about them. If you read through the panic threads, there are actually more people *looking for info/feedback* about the bindings than there are people posting about the problems that they have had with them. Funny enough, much of the fire-stoking hyperbole is from people who don't own and haven't tried the bindings.
> 
> I've had several sets of Union bindings as well, and only had a problem with one of them. I agree the problems do exist, but in most cases they are a nuisance. I've had problems with other bindings as well. What constitutes a problem that one can look past, as you mentioned, varies from person to person.
> 
> The important thing is to not overstate the problems -- avoid the panic-stoking exaggeration, etc. If there was a significant safety issue there would be a recall. Really. Most of the problems are annoying to varying degrees, but avoidable with a bit of diligence. Again, whether the extra diligence is worth the return is a personal decision.


Yes to this ^

Typically starts with "I've heard..." 
:facepalm3:

Applies to any product.

I've heard the Earth is flat and climate change is a hoax.


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## SGboarder (Jun 24, 2012)

zc1 said:


> The forums are skewed. Not just these ones. Forums in general. People who have problems go online and look for solutions as well as post about problems moreso than people who love their products go online to rave about them. If you read through the panic threads, there are actually more people *looking for info/feedback* about the bindings than there are people posting about the problems that they have had with them. Funny enough, much of the fire-stoking hyperbole is from people who don't own and haven't tried the bindings.
> 
> I've had several sets of Union bindings as well, and only had a problem with one of them. I agree the problems do exist, but in most cases they are a nuisance. I've had problems with other bindings as well. What constitutes a problem that one can look past, as you mentioned, varies from person to person.
> 
> The important thing is to not overstate the problems -- avoid the panic-stoking exaggeration, etc. If there was a significant safety issue there would be a recall. Really. Most of the problems are annoying to varying degrees, but avoidable with a bit of diligence. Again, whether the extra diligence is worth the return is a personal decision.


^^^ That. A few years ago the forums were filled with people getting worked up about Burton highbacks cracking, now it is Union hardware.
Is there a kernel of truth to this and an underlying small issue? Probably yes. 
Is this going to have a meaningful issues for the vast majority of riders? Absolutely not.
All the online drama and reactions are totally overblown.


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## Nivek (Jan 24, 2008)

I like Bent Metals. I'd ride Transfers on just about anything. I have Targas, it's what I filmed Can Kevin Carve It with. They're burly but versatile. I like a lot of the Now bindings, they consistently have at least one in my 3 categories of top 5. Burton does make some great bindings, I rode Klutches a lot this year and they're a favorite. Old capstrap and old ratchets though. Union, I want Falcors. Yeah I said it. They're fucking sick. Now, is the hardware gonna fall out? For me, no, I pay way too much attention to my shit and already think thats a problem with Union. Mostly because we replace more Union parts than every other brand we carry combined. And that includes Burton. But they seem to have a solid fix for it next year, I'm hopeful. 

Name a binding, I've probably ridden it. If you have any questions, let me know.


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## Decade190 (Feb 26, 2012)

Nivek said:


> I like Bent Metals. I'd ride Transfers on just about anything. I have Targas, it's what I filmed Can Kevin Carve It with. They're burly but versatile. I like a lot of the Now bindings, they consistently have at least one in my 3 categories of top 5. Burton does make some great bindings, I rode Klutches a lot this year and they're a favorite. Old capstrap and old ratchets though. Union, I want Falcors. Yeah I said it. They're fucking sick. Now, is the hardware gonna fall out? For me, no, I pay way too much attention to my shit and already think thats a problem with Union. Mostly because we replace more Union parts than every other brand we carry combined. And that includes Burton. But they seem to have a solid fix for it next year, I'm hopeful.
> 
> Name a binding, I've probably ridden it. If you have any questions, let me know.


Interesting... i was actually thinking the falcors but have been rightly or wrongly put off. 
I am more of a guy who sets up the board and doesn't think about it for weeks - so not so good if screws falling out. Few peoples anecdotes have been about falcors heel cups breaking etc also. Maybe isolated incident. 

Have you tried K2 lien AT? Like the look of the toestraps on those. And next year they're being updated with new straps - no longer the padded old school. Moving to malavita type ankle straps.

I can get this years falcor cheap but not convinced they're trustworthy enough. Plan to fly to japan with one set of bindings to use on all boards.

Currently these vs k2 lien at, vs rome katana, vs targa if i can find a conversion disc.


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## Nivek (Jan 24, 2008)

Lien AT is super solid. I didn't ride the new one, but have ridden that new strap. It's really good. I defintely trust K2 for what you need. One binding on a big trip that's not gonna fail.


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## kimchijajonshim (Aug 19, 2007)

Nivek said:


> Lien AT is super solid. I didn't ride the new one, but have ridden that new strap. It's really good. I defintely trust K2 for what you need. One binding on a big trip that's not gonna fail.


How burly is the Lien AT? Just picked up a used 2017 version cheap. Seems softer than I expected. Think I'll put the medium or soft tripods in there and toss them on the park board.


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## frankyfc (Aug 11, 2017)

Nivek said:


> Lien AT is super solid. I didn't ride the new one, but have ridden that new strap. It's really good. I defintely trust K2 for what you need. One binding on a big trip that's not gonna fail.





kimchijajonshim said:


> Nivek said:
> 
> 
> > Lien AT is super solid. I didn't ride the new one, but have ridden that new strap. It's really good. I defintely trust K2 for what you need. One binding on a big trip that's not gonna fail.
> ...


Damn. I had been looking at these too but as a one binding quiver to use all mountain and throw on my fish for powder too!
K2 describes them much stiffer than that.


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## Decade190 (Feb 26, 2012)

kimchijajonshim said:


> How burly is the Lien AT? Just picked up a used 2017 version cheap. Seems softer than I expected. Think I'll put the medium or soft tripods in there and toss them on the park board.


hmmm.... i also need to know this. were top of my list for '19 but not if park bindings


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## zc1 (Feb 20, 2017)

If you want to know what Kevin (nivek) thinks of bindings check out angrysnowboarder.com or their youtube channel.


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## Nivek (Jan 24, 2008)

If I end up getting an Overboard, their only comes in a 65 long pow surf board, it will have ATs on it. They're defintely not strictly a Park bindings, though they ride great in that venue. Treat them like a more supportive and responsive Contact Pro. There's some flex tip to tip but front to back they're solid. I have 2015 FSs that had their home on my Aether for a while and my Open Road. I'd feel good with them on my Zoid, Free Thinker, Clovis, Ego, Freedom Machine... basically anythingbyet isn't a full blown freeride deck.


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