# 2022 deep carving analysis thread.



## Kijima (Mar 3, 2019)

A new carving thread for the season. 
Bring your positive energy, we are all beginners in here. 
Doomscrollers and trolls please fuck off .

Based on my previous trials and errors I have boiled down thousands of hours thought into this theory. This is how my fucked up brain thinks about carving, maybe I'm right, maybe I'm wrong, the season will decide. 

I hope everyone will give it a try and report back with success or failure stories. This is how we will become better, as a group not afraid to face our shortcomings. 

Roll on season 2022/2023


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## TrimbleFunky (4 mo ago)

Your concept with the center of mass may only work with boards with a small sidecut. Your idea of center of mess from one to the next is correct, but it never happens instantly, no matter how fast it looks like in person.

There is a float phase between turns. You may hear some people call this being patient. This is where most of your edge angles get set up as there is almost no forces acting on your body.

Now I don't personally use this myself (I do use a very similar variation). But watch this video (gasp, skiers, whatever).


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## lbs123 (Jan 24, 2017)

Not sure if I understand it correctly. There seems to be quite a lot of counter-rotation on the heel-side turn and looking over your shoulder. Or is it just at the beginning of the turn?


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## MrDavey2Shoes (Mar 5, 2018)

I’ve been coming up with a similar movement for closing the turns but my front arm pushes forward linearly like a palm strike. So, same locations A to B but different path. I think the swooping tennis forearm is probably a better movement since it theoretically puts more weight into movement and more inertia behind that weight. Be trying it out next week.
My issue on the heels is getting the explosive leg extension. I’ve been skipping leg day 🤣. Great video, watched it over my espresso.


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## Board Doctor (Feb 1, 2018)

Maybe if your side cut radius is similar to the height of your centre of mass… like 3’ (90cm). But they’re usually at least 7 times that and you don’t jump down the hill, it’s a gradual progression.


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## WigMar (Mar 17, 2019)

Board Doctor said:


> Maybe if your side cut radius is similar to the height of your centre of mass… like 3’ (90cm). But they’re usually at least 7 times that and you don’t jump down the hill, it’s a gradual progression.


What's sidecut got to do with where your weight should be during a turn? Also, I do jump between turns a bit...?


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## drblast (Feb 28, 2017)

Yay a new carving thread! Looking forward to the 2022/23 edition.


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## Kijima (Mar 3, 2019)

lbs123 said:


> Not sure if I understand it correctly. There seems to be quite a lot of counter-rotation on the heel-side turn and looking over your shoulder. Or is it just at the beginning of the turn?


I believe when you ride a snowboard you think you are making big movements but in reality you are actually making much smaller movements, so training with very profound movements helps. 

In this vid I am doing everything I spoke of, the selfie stick mutes some movement but you can see everything looks less dramatic. 
I think when you match the perfect movements to the turn you actually look like you are doing nothing.


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## Kijima (Mar 3, 2019)

TrimbleFunky said:


> Your concept with the center of mass may only work with boards with a small sidecut.


Don't make me draw a small pendulum next to a big one to demonstrate they both operate the same way 
A larger sidecut will just require more speed/steeper slope/better lean control.


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## Kijima (Mar 3, 2019)

Also, for what it's worth I have many more detailed nuisances for these moves but I am starting with the bare bones here, most of us are not yet snowboarding and we need time on board before diving deeper into it. 

I won't be trying to change your mind if you don't care for this method, I completely understand, but I think most carvers will find something in it that lifts them up a level or two from where they are now. 

I don't care for the 99 reasons something won't work, just the 1 reason it will.


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## Kijima (Mar 3, 2019)

Board Doctor said:


> Maybe if your side cut radius is similar to the height of your centre of mass… like 3’ (90cm). But they’re usually at least 7 times that and you don’t jump down the hill, it’s a gradual progression.


Don't be so literal. Try it and report back with your findings


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## Chern (3 mo ago)

Kijima said:


> I believe when you ride a snowboard you think you are making big movements but in reality you are actually making much smaller movements, so training with very profound movements helps.
> 
> In this vid I am doing everything I spoke of, the selfie stick mutes some movement but you can see everything looks less dramatic.
> I think when you match the perfect movements to the turn you actually look like you are doing nothing.


I’m with you and I follow your line of thinking. Could be semantics but……
Is it matching perfect movements to the turn or is it actually matching the turns to the perfect movements?
The body leads and the board follows. Board is the extension of the movements in my visualization of it all.
I coach tennis so I am definitely being influenced by the fact that the racket is just an extension of a series of linked movements that all start with the footwork and the core and legs fully engaging and driving their energy into the ball. it’s how I visualize tennis. 
The shoulder movements on the snowboard seem like they will help me flow.
As long as I let the shoulders lead and start the sequence the board should follow, right?
I’ll give it go next time I’m strapped it.


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## Kijima (Mar 3, 2019)

Chern said:


> I’m with you and I follow your line of thinking. Could be semantics but……
> Is it matching perfect movements to the turn or is it actually matching the turns to the perfect movements?
> The body leads and the board follows. Board is the extension of the movements in my visualization of it all.
> I coach tennis so I am definitely being influenced by the fact that the racket is just an extension of a series of linked movements that all start with the footwork and the core and legs fully engaging and driving their energy into the ball. it’s how I visualize tennis.
> ...


You got it bro. Nothing happens with the board that wasn't engineered by your body movements, and your body movements are engineered by your thought process. 
Welcome to the thread 💪


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## Paxford (Jan 7, 2019)

Stoked. Playing with carves in deeper pow lately.


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## lbs123 (Jan 24, 2017)

Kijima said:


> In this vid I am doing everything I spoke of, the selfie stick mutes some movement but you can see everything looks less dramatic.
> I think when you match the perfect movements to the turn you actually look like you are doing nothing.


I saw that skateboarding video; it looks fluid and like "normal" riding - you are opening the shoulder on the heel side and closing it on the toe side. While in your pendulum theory video, it looks like you suggest the opposite movement.

I've always been open-minded to your theories, I like the boards you build and follow your YT and IG, but I think that when it comes to explaining and especially _demonstrating_ your ideas, you need to step up your game. Once again, we start long discussions about something which isn't explained in one coherent visual package and more importantly isn't demonstrated on snow.

I understand that you'd like people to try this early season, and it may take a while until you can film yourself. But you could at least strap to your snowboard when you do a demonstration in your shop, so we can see which edge you mean.


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## Kijima (Mar 3, 2019)

lbs123 said:


> I saw that skateboarding video; it looks fluid and like "normal" riding - you are opening the shoulder on the heel side and closing it on the toe side. While in your pendulum theory video, it looks like you suggest the opposite movement.
> 
> I've always been open-minded to your theories, I like the boards you build and follow your YT and IG, but I think that when it comes to explaining and especially _demonstrating_ your ideas, you need to step up your game. Once again, we start long discussions about something which isn't explained in one coherent visual package and more importantly isn't demonstrated on snow.
> 
> I understand that you'd like people to try this early season, and it may take a while until you can film yourself. But you could at least strap to your snowboard when you do a demonstration in your shop, so we can see which edge you mean.


Firstly I am sorry if my delivery does not meet your standard but I am not trying to be a YouTuber. I will never ask people to like and subscribe because I am not driven by that. 
Secondly, the video is filmed with a selfie stick which greatly limits shoulder movement so there will be a difference in how it looks compared to the static demonstration. 
Thirdly the static demonstration movements are over the top on purpose because 50% of every move you make on a snowboard gets lost into thin air. The gap between perceived movement and actual movement is large so training big really helps. 

To simplify, there are 2 shoulder positions, one for heel and one for toe. If you get that right your hips are able to make the right moves, if you make the right moves you look like I do in the skateboard video. It may look like nothing but I'm here to confirm I am actually doing a lot with my body to achieve that result.


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## TrimbleFunky (4 mo ago)

Kijima said:


> Firstly I am sorry if my delivery does not meet your standard but I am not trying to be a YouTuber. I will never ask people to like and subscribe because I am not driven by that.
> Secondly, the video is filmed with a selfie stick which greatly limits shoulder movement so there will be a difference in how it looks compared to the static demonstration.
> Thirdly the static demonstration movements are over the top on purpose because 50% of every move you make on a snowboard gets lost into thin air. The gap between perceived movement and actual movement is large so training big really helps.
> 
> To simplify, there are 2 shoulder positions, one for heel and one for toe. If you get that right your hips are able to make the right moves, if you make the right moves you look like I do in the skateboard video. It may look like nothing but I'm here to confirm I am actually doing a lot with my body to achieve that result.


(I disagree with your methods, but the below supports your upper body moving a lot but looks minimal line of thought).

One can indeed do a lot and have it look like nothing. First part of this video shows a skier making SL turns. The upper body is not still. This person is actively angulating + countering as the turn develops. Countering as in, his shoulders would be facing the outside of the turn (I guess for you all, it's like counter-rotation, but it's not). Pay attention to when max edge angle occurs and where his hips/shoulders are facing. If his skis were not moving around him, you would actively see his upper body moving all over the place in a controlled manner. It is an optical illusion. Just because your body "looks still" does not mean it isn't doing a heck of a lot of work to complement the lower half. If you are lazy with your upper body, you will never achieve true performance. Ski racers do not do all those weird core workouts for nothing, it is absolutely required.






IIRC in kijima's vid, it's the same thing, except he may be doing a lot of work to rotate into the turn, but it looks minimal since the board is keeping up with him.


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## t21 (Dec 29, 2010)

I like your vid with the electric skateboard demo, i do own one (Propel brand) and when i carve i would lead with my shoulder along with my lower body( a bit of exaggeration but fun).


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## Kijima (Mar 3, 2019)

TrimbleFunky said:


> One can indeed do a lot and have it look like nothing.
> 
> IIRC in kijima's vid, it's the same thing, except he may be doing a lot of work to rotate into the turn, but it looks minimal since the board is keeping up with him.


Precisely.
What looks like a lot of shoulder rotation standing on solid ground translates to a lot of snowboard across the hill when riding.


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## lbs123 (Jan 24, 2017)

Kijima said:


> Firstly I am sorry if my delivery does not meet your standard but I am not trying to be a YouTuber. I will never ask people to like and subscribe because I am not driven by that.
> Secondly, the video is filmed with a selfie stick which greatly limits shoulder movement so there will be a difference in how it looks compared to the static demonstration.


I know you are not driven by views, I just wanted to show you that I respect your work and try to approach your ideas with an open mind. I also understand the purpose of exaggerated movements in learning the technique. My problem with your demonstration is displayed in the following picture.

No matter how much the movement is exaggerated in the first picture, and limited due to the selfie stick in the second, they seem like the opposite movements to me. Or what I'm not getting here? 










I tried the movement from the first picture on the hill yesterday, and it felt quite unnatural.

Btw. what do you think of this approach? I don't get much from it with just automatic translation but I like those Swingboards. Couldn't find anything like that in Europe, though.


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## Myoko (Dec 11, 2018)

Replying to Kijima
OKOKOK. I think I have worked out something. I understand how opening your shoulders would put weight on the front foot and make it turn easier from surfing, actually, its very bloody similar when I think about it. 29 years never thought about fuck me. So you are shifting the weight onto the front foot and the back knee is angled in as you crouch into it more which is why many people don't do duck stance as that would make this more difficult. You are basically initiating the turns with your arms/shoulders, putting more weight on the front foot so it digs in more, staying open on backhand will make way tighter turns. Hmmm am I close? I have not considered this before and now hate myself


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## MrDavey2Shoes (Mar 5, 2018)

@lbs123 the movement in image 1 precedes the movement in image 2. They’re two different motions at two different points.


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## lbs123 (Jan 24, 2017)

MrDavey2Shoes said:


> @lbs123 the movement in image 1 precedes the movement in image 2. They’re two different motions at two different points.


The source of my confusion is Kijima saying to hold that initial position all the way around. It would make sense to me if it was just a starting position, and then you should gradually open your shoulders on the heel turn and close them on the toe turn. I think I was already doing this inspired by the following video, and it really helps with throwing the hips to the center of the turn. But here, it's more of a swing motion, not holding two extreme positions and quickly switching between them.


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## Snowdaddy (Feb 2, 2018)

So how does the hula hoop fit into this?


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## Paxford (Jan 7, 2019)

Kijima said:


> I believe when you ride a snowboard you think you are making big movements but in reality you are actually making much smaller movements, so training with very profound movements helps.
> 
> In this vid I am doing everything I spoke of, the selfie stick mutes some movement but you can see everything looks less dramatic.
> I think when you match the perfect movements to the turn you actually look like you are doing nothing.


@Kijima what happened around 2:40 in your skate vid? Your shoulder drop got much more exaggerated at that point ... why? Were you doing that to carve a tighter arc? Or rubbing off speed? Or just to show us more clearly that you are dropping your leading shoulder? Or maybe something else 🐬 

This thread and especially your videos have me thinking about "when" I drop my leading/front shoulder going toe side. Whether I do it at the beginning of the toe side turn, or near the end, or midway through to ride uphill a bit. And just how much of a shoulder drop I do.

If I'm crossover carving tight arcs in steeper stuff I think I drop my shoulder when exiting the heel side turn and keep it dropped throughout the toe side arc. Then I open the shoulder at the end to shift weight downhill and engage the heel side.

If I'm crossover carving wide arcs in steeper stuff I don't think I drop the shoulder nearly as much.

If I'm crossover carving in low angle stuff I think I drop the shoulder even less. Like from shoulders wide open to the fall line to slightly less wide open to the fall line, no real drop but a subtle change just closing the front shoulder a little bit. The exception is if I want to carve a circle, then its that dropped shoulder that brings the circle all the way around quickly before I lose too much speed.

If I'm crossunder carving I'm essentially riding straight, and there's even less shoulder drop than all of the above. My upper body is very still, but with weight slightly forward to engage the leading edge and not carve off the tail.

So I think the terrain dictates my approach. That and how many people are in the way.

Anyways, back to this shoulder drop thing. I can't consistently eurocarve with my forearms in the snow and body fully extended. Sometimes these "laydown" turns work but not always and I've been trying to figure out why. I bet my shoulder is dropped more than it should be when entering this maneuver, which leads to uphill riding, my body gets into more of a ball shape than a stretched out ruler shape, and it kills the eurocarve. So I'm sitting here wondering how I can get my front arm on the snow while not dropping my shoulder. It's not possible, unless I dive forward and just to the right of the toe side edge when I stretch out my body. 

When I fail the eurocarve I'm probably set up like this |-- which arcs the nose uphill. (board is vertical line, body is dashed line)

When I succeed I'm probably set up like this |/ which keeps the nose going downhill. (board is vertical line, body is forward towards the nose of the board). 

I'm going to try diving in more. Maybe grab the heel side rail with my left hand to get my weight out front with torso open first, then dive/stretch out forward putting both forearms in the snow and then glide it out.


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## TrimbleFunky (4 mo ago)

You probably are dropping your shoulder on tighter turns on steeper stuff because otherwise, you would be backfooted as the board enters the fall line. Less exaggerated on bigger turns as you aren’t entering the fall line as quickly.

This is also an issue on jump turns as most people do not want to commit suicide as they enter the fall line. Which leads to the 50ft linked sideslips as the board gets loaded too late into the turn. Or it leads to the back of your board running into the slope and being stuck on the maneuver.


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## Paxford (Jan 7, 2019)

TrimbleFunky said:


> But watch this video (gasp, skiers, whatever).







Your skier vid is awesome, despite how problematic skiers are. Be the ball.


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## Paxford (Jan 7, 2019)

Paxford said:


> I'm going to try diving in more. Maybe grab the heel side rail with my left hand to get my weight out front with torso open first, then dive/stretch out forward putting both forearms in the snow and then glide it out.


Update ... that totally worked! No grab required. Just dive in toe side after the edge is set and glide. Makes the eurocarve super easy.


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## Scalpelman (Dec 5, 2017)

Paxford said:


> Update ... that totally worked! No grab required. Just dive in toe side after the edge is set and glide. Makes the eurocarve super easy.


So you’re laying out earlier in the turn?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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