# Heelside Initiation



## MMSlasher (Mar 18, 2016)

Many people ride a 'duck' stance and it is generally -15 +15, so a 30 degree spread. Right now, you are riding at a 36 degree spread. For me personally, that wouldn't work. My hips and knees wouldn't like that. That is just too duck stanced. If you want to bring your back foot to -9, that may be better. Test it and try it out. If that doesn't work try another combo 30 degree spread. Another thing may be your stance, it could be too wide or too narrow, you didn't say how far apart your legs are. I'm your hight, so try a 21.5" to 23" wide stance. see how that works. 

Good luck and shred on.


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## Snowdaddy (Feb 2, 2018)

How do you ride with "your boots looser"? What are your highback angles? Maybe it's just a catchy board that needs a more aggressive riding style...


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## GenGo (Dec 5, 2018)

MMSlasher said:


> Many people ride a 'duck' stance and it is generally -15 +15, so a 30 degree spread. Right now, you are riding at a 36 degree spread. For me personally, that wouldn't work. My hips and knees wouldn't like that. That is just too duck stanced. If you want to bring your back foot to -9, that may be better. Test it and try it out. If that doesn't work try another combo 30 degree spread. Another thing may be your stance, it could be too wide or too narrow, you didn't say how far apart your legs are. I'm your hight, so try a 21.5" to 23" wide stance. see how that works.
> 
> Good luck and shred on.


My Stance width is 21.25". It started a little narrower, but I couldn't stay up when stopping. The back leg pretty much has to stay at -18 or I can't work my hips properly to turn. I feel I could go narrower, but the adjustments on the Cartel Re:flex doesn't have a ton of options since each notch is 3*. (I seem to remember rentals in the past having more options?) I am actually running 15 nose, -18 tail. I'll try bringing the tail back to -15, but I think I'll end up back in an unstable stance for me.


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## GenGo (Dec 5, 2018)

Snowdaddy said:


> How do you ride with "your boots looser"? What are your highback angles? Maybe it's just a catchy board that needs a more aggressive riding style...


I haven't adjusted my high-backs. As far as I know they're at the most upright angle for Burton Cartels(Reflex). I'll have to play around with it this weekend. The board is supposed to essentially be a Never Summer Heritage. 

By riding my boots looser I just tighten them to the point that they support me when leaning into them. So I have tension around the ankle but less toward the shin. Closest thing I can relate it to is ice skate or in-line skates. There's support but I can still move. Also riding a medium-soft boot - the ThirtyTwo Sexton Lo-Cut.


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## MMSlasher (Mar 18, 2016)

GenGo said:


> My Stance width is 21.25". It started a little narrower, but I couldn't stay up when stopping. The back leg pretty much has to stay at -18 or I can't work my hips properly to turn. I feel I could go narrower, but the adjustments on the Cartel Re:flex doesn't have a ton of options since each notch is 3*. (I seem to remember rentals in the past having more options?) I am actually running 15 nose, -18 tail. I'll try bringing the tail back to -15, but I think I'll end up back in an unstable stance for me.


I don't get that part in red. Is it a personal limitation or something in your mind. I can't say that I have ever heard anyone (non-switch riding) with their back leg at a more extreme angle than the front. 

Most if not all bindings use 3* intervals, not sure about burton est though. If it's an actual hip thing, bring your front foot to 21 or 24 to get that back foot comfortably -15.

About your stance, try and get a little wider, it doesn't have to be exactly 22 inches, but going wider may help.

Lastly, about the blue part, it really could just be that you aren't good enough yet. Since you are not an expert, and neither am I, try being a little flexible with angles and widths, and practice. Good luck.


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## Snowdaddy (Feb 2, 2018)

MMSlasher said:


> I can't say that I have ever heard anyone (non-switch riding) with their back leg at a more extreme angle than the front.


I think this guy rides +6/-9






I think I'm going to set my bindings like that and see if I can do his tricks. :dry:


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## GenGo (Dec 5, 2018)

MMSlasher said:


> I don't get that part in red. Is it a personal limitation or something in your mind. I can't say that I have ever heard anyone (non-switch riding) with their back leg at a more extreme angle than the front.
> 
> Most if not all bindings use 3* intervals, not sure about burton est though. If it's an actual hip thing, bring your front foot to 21 or 24 to get that back foot comfortably -15.
> 
> ...


It's physical. I've tried a lesser angle and I just feel like it makes me immobile. I may have improper technique as I am totally self taught. So when I initiate a heel side turn, the motion is as if I am stepping and pushing out. Almost like pushing with the back leg while pulling with the front. When the angle is less then -18 I feel like I can't get that motion to initiate the turn. It just feel unstable and makes turning really difficult. Now I might be able to use a lesser rear angle if I widen out my stance or find a different angle for my front foot. I've always ridden wide and duck like. Whether a skateboard or skimboard. 

As far as being good enough... I'm no pro but I only ever go down if I hit unexpected ice and even then I learned to ride on the East Coast so pretty good with shit snow. When my stance was narrower I would ride down the hill fine, but once I stopped I just wasn't stable and I would be wobbly edge to edge. With the wider stance this isn't an issue at all. I'm going to widen out the stance a bit and see if I can get the back foot to -15. Thanks for the input, much appreciated!


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## Manicmouse (Apr 7, 2014)

There’s no rule, I ride +36 -24 go work that one out!!

Basically it’s biomechanics and what feels comfortable. My ankles have problems from childhood... or my father was Donald Duck.


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## GenGo (Dec 5, 2018)

Manicmouse said:


> There’s no rule, I ride +36 -24 go work that one out!!
> 
> Basically it’s biomechanics and what feels comfortable. My ankles have problems from childhood... or my father was Donald Duck.




Wow that's crazy. I have read that beyond 30* difference isn't recommended for the joints. However, after my first day back on the board this season, I am surprisingly not sore (except that spill I took walking on black ice...oi)


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## Manicmouse (Apr 7, 2014)

GenGo said:


> Manicmouse said:
> 
> 
> > There’s no rule, I ride +36 -24 go work that one out!!
> ...


My feet naturally stick out about 30 degrees with my knees straight. If I used “normal” angles my knees would knock together. Skiing is actually impossible!


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## Pointy Deity (Dec 12, 2014)

GenGo said:


> I haven't adjusted my high-backs. As far as I know they're at the most upright angle for Burton Cartels(Reflex).


That'll make heelside turns more difficult. Try adding more forward lean on your highbacks. I like mine all the way forward. 



GenGo said:


> So when I initiate a heel side turn, the motion is as if I am stepping and pushing out. Almost like pushing with the back leg while pulling with the front.


Maybe I'm just reading it wrong or having trouble picturing it, but this doesn't sound like what you want to be doing. Can you get a video of yourself riding? It sounds like you're at a point where you'd benefit from a lesson. If that's not an option, check out some tutorials on YouTube (I like Ryan Knapton's "How to really really really carve" vids).


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## wrathfuldeity (Oct 5, 2007)

GenGo said:


> I remember lurking on these forums about 14 years ago. It's crazy to see it still here all these years later.
> 
> Last season I purchased my first board and ever since I've been trying to find the right stance for me. The stance I currently have is goofy, duck-foot at 15,-18, on a 162 rocker/camber board. This stance works for me, but I feel I have to ride really aggressive to initiate heel side turns. If I am doing quick, tight, carves, it is no problem turning the board edge to edge. *When cruising along I'm finding it very unstable and catchy feeling when initiating the heel side. I would say I am a low level intermediate rider. I noticed part of my problem was not being aggressive enough, but even after shaking the off-season rust, and building the confidence to know my heel-side would be there, I was getting some catchy-ness just behind my rear foot. *
> 
> Could my rear binding be too far toward toe or heel side? I'm on a 162 High Society Twilight. I'm 6' and between 200-215lbs and 11.5 boot. The board is supposed to be a medium stiffness board and It's the longest I've ever ridden. If I ride with my boots looser, lean back, bend my knees and really get down into it and ride fast I find riding much easier. I just don't want to ride like this all day long. Any ideas on correcting this?





GenGo said:


> It's physical. I've tried a lesser angle and I just feel like it makes me immobile.* I may have improper technique as I am totally self taught. So when I initiate a heel side turn, the motion is as if I am stepping and pushing out. Almost like pushing with the back leg while pulling with the front. When the angle is less then -18 I feel like I can't get that motion to initiate the turn.* It just feel unstable and makes turning really difficult. Now I might be able to use a lesser rear angle if I widen out my stance or find a different angle for my front foot. I've always ridden wide and duck like. Whether a skateboard or skimboard.
> 
> As far as being good enough... I'm no pro but I only ever go down if I hit unexpected ice and even then I learned to ride on the East Coast so pretty good with shit snow. *When my stance was narrower I would ride down the hill fine, but once I stopped I just wasn't stable and I would be wobbly edge to edge. With the wider stance this isn't an issue at all.* I'm going to widen out the stance a bit and see if I can get the back foot to -15. Thanks for the input, much appreciated!


First thing, is your board a true twin, directional or what?

Another, thing is make sure that your rear binding is equal distance or even shifted back a tad more to the tail than your front binding (depending on the above question)....it kind of sounds like you have too much tail...especially if the tail is catchy and you have difficulty releasing the tail when coming out of turns. It could also be a technique thing...in that you are not moving fast enough off the tail and getting on the nose to initiate the next turn and thus not able to release the tail soon enough...see creepy basement vid.

As for feeling unstable and wobbles...shift your hips forward toward (sideways toward the nose) and it should immediately dispense with any wobbles. Again shifting your hips toward the nose when initiating heel (and toe) carves will help immensely...see creepy basement vid.


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## catsnowboards (Dec 13, 2018)

Check a few things. With boots hooked in board see how much room you can lay board over without heel drag. A sure fire way to know you have heel drag while riding is to look at your track once you have wiped out. You will visible see where your heels hung you up, it can also cause a bobble feeling if you were able to recover without wiping out. What I think is the issue though is that you are not bending your knees. As an advanced rider you want your center of gravity low and you lower joints to be making all the moves. If your legs are straighter and your pushing your butt out, and or breaking at the waist this puts much more force on the heel edge causing it to chatter and potentially wipe out. IF your dynamic and bending your knees to absorb the pressure and control it the turns are effortless. This motion can not be accomplished if you are still counter rotating and using your back foot like a windshield wiper. The best suggestion is to seek out a Certified Instructor and have them assess your set up and help correct your positioning. Even the pros get lessons and are always learning more. Next suggestion is ride, ride , ride. Ride daily if you can. Best of luck!


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## GenGo (Dec 5, 2018)

Just back from the mountain today. 

The solution:
I adjusted my rear binding to -15 and I extended my stance one bolt forward. I also moved my rear binding forward one bolt while keeping the extra width on my stance. I haven't measured it. I am now just ever so slightly set back, per the boards design, but I am wider and more over the center. 



Pointy Deity said:


> That'll make heelside turns more difficult. Try adding more forward lean on your highbacks. I like mine all the way forward.
> Maybe I'm just reading it wrong or having trouble picturing it, but this doesn't sound like what you want to be doing. Can you get a video of yourself riding? It sounds like you're at a point where you'd benefit from a lesson. If that's not an option, check out some tutorials on YouTube (I like Ryan Knapton's "How to really really really carve" vids).






After reading my explanation I realized it's not very good. I do push with the back leg while pulling with the front when making a heel side turn and visa verso for toe. This includes shoulder and torso movement as well. have been considering a lesson lately. It might happen this season. I discovered Ryan Knapton a couple months ago. I put him in the off season rotation. Next time I make it to the hill with a friend I will be shooting some footage. See over 14 years of snowboarding I had like 10 multi-day trips. The last two years I've been able to ride more frequently. So I've always just rode the hill. I only had so much time to ride, so we made the most of it. Now I live driving distance to a small hill and the frequency has made me want to actually pay attention to what I'm doing and why. I think my post made me sound like I was riding out of my league. 



wrathfuldeity said:


> First thing, is your board a true twin, directional or what?
> Another, thing is make sure that your rear binding is equal distance or even shifted back a tad more to the tail than your front binding (depending on the above question)....it kind of sounds like you have too much tail...especially if the tail is catchy and you have difficulty releasing the tail when coming out of turns. It could also be a technique thing...in that you are not moving fast enough off the tail and getting on the nose to initiate the next turn and thus not able to release the tail soon enough...see creepy basement vid.
> As for feeling unstable and wobbles...shift your hips forward toward (sideways toward the nose) and it should immediately dispense with any wobbles. Again shifting your hips toward the nose when initiating heel (and toe) carves will help immensely...see creepy basement vid.



My board is a true twin with a slight set-back. Last night I adjusted my rear binding to -15 and I extended my stance one bolt forward. I also moved my rear binding forward one bolt while keeping the extra width on my stance. I haven't measured it. I am now just ever so slightly set back, per the boards design, but I am wider and more over the center. I think the catchy issue I was having was from 1) too much tail, 2) the extra rear angle 3) my rear binding was favoring the toe side a bit more than the front. Upon moving the stance more on center I realized how much I use my front leg and how much easier it now was. I rode the local hill today (lee canyon) and I felt SO MUCH BETTER. I didn't have to get back in the saddle as much and I could decide when I wanted to change edges rather than having to find the time/place to do it. It was back to riding the way I know I can ride. 




catsnowboards said:


> Check a few things. With boots hooked in board see how much room you can lay board over without heel drag. A sure fire way to know you have heel drag while riding is to look at your track once you have wiped out. You will visible see where your heels hung you up, it can also cause a bobble feeling if you were able to recover without wiping out. What I think is the issue though is that you are not bending your knees. As an advanced rider you want your center of gravity low and you lower joints to be making all the moves. If your legs are straighter and your pushing your butt out, and or breaking at the waist this puts much more force on the heel edge causing it to chatter and potentially wipe out. IF your dynamic and bending your knees to absorb the pressure and control it the turns are effortless. This motion can not be accomplished if you are still counter rotating and using your back foot like a windshield wiper. The best suggestion is to seek out a Certified Instructor and have them assess your set up and help correct your positioning. Even the pros get lessons and are always learning more. Next suggestion is ride, ride , ride. Ride daily if you can. Best of luck!


I have maybe a Cm of overhang on both sides of my board, but I've never noticed toe or heel drag. The issue I was describing hasn't caused me to wipe out yet. Originally the tail was more wobbly then catchy I guess and it felt like it was happening toward the center of the tail. It would wobble, but it never took me down, just felt like it was going to. It was a bobble feeling but it felt like it was coming from the center of the tail, halfway through the edge transition it would bobble. I will say that once I went to the other side of the mountain with better snow, the issue didn't bother me, but changing to heelside still took setting up with the right terrain.


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