# Beginner critique/advice



## f00bar (Mar 6, 2014)

My 9/yo has 5 trips under his belt. He loves it, every day has been open to close with a 20m lunch break. He's done 2 lessons to get him going, definitely time for more, but to be honest now that he's all over the mountain I've been having too much fun to press them.

Being a skier I'm not really sure what is good or bad form outside of flailing arms. The obvious thing right now is he totally favors heel, so basically goes down and does 180s to keep turning. Of course he's not really listening to the old man who skis and doesn't snowboard when I try to get him practicing toe. (Hence the need for lessons because the instructors are godlike compared to my advice).

Anything else obvious that jumps out?

Awesomecool101 snowboard4 - YouTube


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## Varza (Jan 6, 2013)

He's not flailing his arms too much that I can see. Also, it seems like he will have no trouble riding switch later on 

But what he is doing basically seems to me like a version of falling leaf down the mountain. Only on heel edge, no actual turns, just twirling around. Posture problems that I notice are that he's keeping his legs straight all the way and he seems to be hunching over a slight bit. 

Now, I'm still a bit of a newbie myself (maybe intermediate by this point), but I can tell you that lessons will probably help him a lot, both in skill and confidence. (not that you need telling, I reckon...)


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## speedjason (May 2, 2013)

well one thing for sure is he needs to take some lessons to get linking turns down.
posture wise keeping knees bent.
maybe you should take the lesson with him. never too late to switch.


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## Ocho (Mar 13, 2011)

Hi and welcome! Very cool that you're supportive of his snowboarding :thumbsup:

I noticed the same things as Varza. Also that he doesn't have his weight centered at times.

More lessons is the best option. In the meantime, I'd suggest having a look at Jed's videos to show where he can progress from here, proper form, etc. http://www.snowboardingforum.com/ti.../132250-beginner-snowboard-video-lessons.html 

Plus Jed has rad snowball-wielding ninjas in his logo ha. Who doesn't love ninjas :laugh:

Good luck! Keep us posted.


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## f00bar (Mar 6, 2014)

Agreed, lessons are in order. The first few times were at a pretty small mountain. The beginner slope was a toe rope that he had a bear of a time getting the hang of. So while he could get down just fine they had to put him in a lower group that was walking up the slope. For obvious reasons that kinda frustrated him.

Now he's doing chairs and we are going to a bit larger mountain that really caters to snowboarders as much as skiers so I'll get him to give lessons another go.

In the morning he was totally side sliding down the mountain. We had a bit of a 'discussion' over that and by the end of the day while I won't say he was carving he definitely can go up on heel edge and go cross slope without slipping.

Should I adjust the 'camber?' on the bindings a bit to force his knees to bend? Right now I have them straight up.


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## speedjason (May 2, 2013)

f00bar said:


> Agreed, lessons are in order. The first few times were at a pretty small mountain. The beginner slope was a toe rope that he had a bear of a time getting the hang of. So while he could get down just fine they had to put him in a lower group that was walking up the slope. For obvious reasons that kinda frustrated him.
> 
> Now he's doing chairs and we are going to a bit larger mountain that really caters to snowboarders as much as skiers so I'll get him to give lessons another go.
> 
> ...


nah you should not force him to do anything. I would say have him watch these videos.
How to Snowboard: Step 1 - Introduction to Snowboarding - YouTube


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## f00bar (Mar 6, 2014)

speedjason said:


> nah you should not force him to do anything. I would say have him watch these videos.
> How to Snowboard: Step 1 - Introduction to Snowboarding - YouTube


By force i really mean try to help him to do the right thing. I actually showed him one of those videos about how to do the chairlift. As soon as one of them said the word 'butt' it was all over, plus he wanted to play Minecraft. He's kind of at that age where snowboarding to him is like playing in the snow, not really a sport with rules ,etc. So videos don't really hold his attention. Though he is always super attentive during lessons if for no other reason than it's what you do in 'school'.

I have a few others that show progress.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCTSqAm7VEZgi9Gs4seG4HzA


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## Ocho (Mar 13, 2011)

f00bar said:


> In the morning he was totally side sliding down the mountain. We had a bit of a 'discussion' over that and by the end of the day while I won't say he was carving he definitely can go up on heel edge and go cross slope without slipping.
> 
> Should I adjust the 'camber?' on the bindings a bit to force his knees to bend? Right now I have them straight up.


Side slipping. He's 9 and has been out 5x. Could be because he's more comfortable with that at this point, especially considering one is facing down the mountain/fall line when side slipping (heel). Beginners of all ages find comfort in facing down the fall line. 

Bindings. I think you mean the highback? Personally I don't like any forward lean on my highbacks and ride them straight/neutral. I think the best way to bend your knees is to actually bend your knees. When you do, it's not just the knees that flex but also the joints of the ankles and hips. If he has the tendency to ride with straight legs, likely his ankles and hips are locking a bit too. Forcing the knees to bend with forward lean won't engage the other joints as much as if he bends his knees consciously. But some love fwd lean on their bindings so there's that.

Disclaimer: I'm not an instructor. I don't have kids. I don't know that much about kids (apart from common sense and a nephew whom I love), teaching kids to snowboard, or teaching anyone to snowboard for that matter. 

Oh, I recall some old threads on here about making a game out of it to learn the basics. Might want to do a search on that.


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## wrathfuldeity (Oct 5, 2007)

He is doing fine, get him in some weekly group lessons with his peers and also take some of his friends to the hill that ride...the point is for him to have fun/good time. Also the peer pressure and seeing other kids shred...he will step it up and learn from other kids. Depending on his attitude...if he is an aggressive determined type, take him on some more challenging terrain. Some kids can do amazing things if they don't know. Example 2 weeks ago, on day 5 of riding took two 11 yr/o newbie girls; ducked a rope and did a short steep double black...didn't tell them...just said "follow me...ehh you can do it...no problem." We got to the bottom...mostly sideslipping...had them look back up hill...and ask them what they thought of doing their first double black. They about shit their pants but were STOKED! We went back and did some blue and single black runs with terrain traps where they had to point and bomb and they did great. And last week met a 5 yr/o girl that regularly hits double black runs...of course she has been coming to the hill since being a baby.


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## SkullAndXbones (Feb 24, 2014)

all beginners tend to stay on their heel edge because they are not comfortable using their toe edge yet. this will take care of itself as he progresses. it'll take a good full season or 2 for him to get confident and comfortable using both edges. lessons aren't absolutely necessary but im sure they wouldn't hurt. i can't comment too much on lessons because i never took one so have i no idea what they teach


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## bassholic (Dec 22, 2009)

by getting him on the larger mountains and not dialing in the smaller things(toe side) he may not ever learn to ride.

He needs more lessons.

*painful video watching him traverse and not try to switch. Anyhow i know the pain of trying to teach someone to get out of their comfort zone. I do the hand holding techinique to build a persons confidence. Since you are on skis you can't ride hand in hand with him.

Lessons and make the insturctor focus on his weaknesses. Unless of course he's not serious about this 

In the meantime i guess it's "better" than me ...

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10101516944757454&l=7426710940628942326


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## chomps1211 (Mar 30, 2011)

Read the description on the YT vid. If you are saying that he made it down the hill his very first time "without a face plant?" That's great. I'd say he did quite well, Regardless of technique. Of course, He will definitely need those lessons to get over the natural fear and nervousness of pointing the nose of the board straight down slope and getting that toe side turn down so he can start truly linking turns. From there? Progression tends to come at a much quicker pace. :thumbsup:

However,... If you are saying that _this_ was the first time he did so _without_ faceplanting? Then that might go a _loooong_ way towards explaining the heel side, falling leaf traverses. He's scared/nervous about slamming face first. (....as aren't we All?) 

Again,.. lessons with a good instructor are in order. If the instructor can get him to start working on short, complete, "C" turns? Heel and Toe side. One completed heelside C turn and stop, then from that stopped position, the opposite toeside, completed C turn and stop. My instructor did those with me and it did wonders for helping me understand the subtle shifting of weight distribution and head/shoulder/upper body positioning needed to get the initiation of those turns going, along with how to follow thru with my upper and lower body. 

All the advice posted so far on his body position, stance, knees, etc. is accurate, and although he looks fairly confident in what he's doing right now? And while confidence is a good thing? The main problem with that is he's gaining that confidence using some pretty poor form and you don't want _that_ to become habit! 

Another other benefit of lessons will be, that as parents? Whether you ski or board, an instructor is going to be a more influential "Authority" figure for him, as opposed to,... _"Awwwww Mom? Dad,...? I wanna do it MY way!!!" _  :laugh:


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## f00bar (Mar 6, 2014)

Great advice guys. For the most part what I was expecting. Each time I try to work on a few small skills to improve on. For example at the top there is a slight ~5' drop off and then a good 150' glide to where the trail actually starts. In the morning he wasn't even coming close to making it half way, by the end of the day he was gliding the whole way. And getting off the lift he can do toe side turning if we want to head right.

I'm also telling (not that that means always listening) him to always start off toe side and then turn from there to heel. He's wobbly, but does manage it so I think progress is being made.

Lessons next time unless he grampa comes with us. He is really good at taking instructions, just not from me. And if he can find some kids his age to try to push him a bit that would be ideal. Unfortunately he seems to be about the only one at school who has started.


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## MGD81 (Mar 13, 2012)

wrathfuldeity said:


> He is doing fine, get him in some weekly group lessons with his peers and also take some of his friends to the hill that ride...the point is for him to have fun/good time. Also the peer pressure and seeing other kids shred...he will step it up and learn from other kids. Depending on his attitude...if he is an aggressive determined type, take him on some more challenging terrain. Some kids can do amazing things if they don't know. Example 2 weeks ago, on day 5 of riding took two 11 yr/o newbie girls; ducked a rope and did a short steep double black...didn't tell them...just said "follow me...ehh you can do it...no problem." We got to the bottom...mostly sideslipping...had them look back up hill...and ask them what they thought of doing their first double black. They about shit their pants but were STOKED! We went back and did some blue and single black runs with terrain traps where they had to point and bomb and they did great. And last week met a 5 yr/o girl that regularly hits double black runs...of course she has been coming to the hill since being a baby.


This is the second thread I have seen you boasting about ducking ropes with kids. Its idiots like you who give instructors a bad name. You duck a rope at any of the 4 resorts I have taught at and its instant dismissal, along with being reported to the local PD - and thats in uniform or not. Setting this bad example to the youth of the sport is fucking moronic. Hear about the kid at Vail last year who ducked a rope and got killed by an inbounds slide? nice work. 

To the OP - your kid will never learn how to turn on his toes as long as hes trying to keep up with you. Put him back in a level 2/3 lesson where he will learn how to be more comfortable on his toes, and then start turning, with a bunch of other kids learning the same. I wouldnt worry about teaching knee bending, especially coming from you. The instructor will eventually get him bending knees and will do it indirectly through games.


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## bassholic (Dec 22, 2009)

chomps1211 said:


> Read the description on the YT vid. If you are saying that he made it down the hill his very first time "without a face plant?" That's great. I'd say he did quite well, Regardless of technique. Of course, He will definitely need those lessons to get over the natural fear and nervousness of pointing the nose of the board straight down slope and getting that toe side turn down so he can start truly linking turns. From there? Progression tends to come at a much quicker pace. :thumbsup:
> 
> However,... If you are saying that _this_ was the first time he did so _without_ faceplanting? Then that might go a _loooong_ way towards explaining the heel side, falling leaf traverses. He's scared/nervous about slamming face first. (....as aren't we All?)
> 
> ...


:eusa_clap: here here:bowdown:


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## Deacon (Mar 2, 2013)

DON'T use the forward lean on his highbacks to try to force him to bend his knees. It won't doo what you're hoping, but it will make riding painful as those backs push into his calves. he's doing good for a 9 year old just learning. My 9 and 10 year olds look about the same. :thumbsup:


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## f00bar (Mar 6, 2014)

Definitely doing a lesson next time out, not this but next weekend. Not sure if I want to do group or a private. I was looking and an hour of private is $100. That kind of sounds like I'm being bent over a bit??


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## Deacon (Mar 2, 2013)

f00bar said:


> Definitely doing a lesson next time out, not this but next weekend. Not sure if I want to do group or a private. I was looking and an hour of private is $100. That kind of sounds like I'm being bent over a bit??


see if they have multi pack. I paid $75 for three semi-privates for my two. $150 total, and they were the only two kids in the lessons. does he have a friend who's parents might pony up?


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## f00bar (Mar 6, 2014)

The Deacon said:


> see if they have multi pack. I paid $75 for three semi-privates for my two. $150 total, and they were the only two kids in the lessons. does he have a friend who's parents might pony up?


I'm actually a little surprised that other than a friend of his who skis he is the only one he knows that hits the slopes. We are in western mass so not exactly snow country but still only a half hour away from some slopes. When I first offered to take my son I did offer to take his best friend but for some reason he didn't want to go. shrug. Kids can be strange.


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## ItchEtrigR (Jan 1, 2012)

9 years old, keep him on the hill and by 14 he'll be snowboarding better than most of us replying to this post.


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## chomps1211 (Mar 30, 2011)

ItchEtrigR said:


> 9 years old, keep him on the hill and by 14 he'll be snowboarding better than most of us replying to this post.


:laugh: For all the OP knows, he already does!! :laugh:

True enough tho,.. Lotsa 12-16 year old kids on the hill who look like they grew up learning how to walk n run with a board strapped to their feet! Starting so late in life as I did, I don't think I'll ever develop that sort of "effortless" natural looking sense of balance and ease on a snowboard. 


(Damn!! ...I just depressed the hell outta myself!!)


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## Deacon (Mar 2, 2013)

chomps1211 said:


> :laugh: For all the OP knows, he already does!! :laugh:
> 
> True enough tho,.. Lotsa 12-16 year old kids on the hill who look like they grew up learning how to walk n run with a board strapped to their feet! Starting so late in life as I did, I don't think I'll ever develop that sort of "effortless" natural looking sense of balance and ease on a snowboard.
> 
> ...


sure ya will chomps! you'll just be 60!


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## chomps1211 (Mar 30, 2011)

The Deacon said:


> sure ya will chomps! you'll just be 60!


Lol! Yeah,.. maybe! 

In the meantime, maybe I should start working on some sort of "walker" attachment/accessory for geriatric snowboarders. I can get a Kickstarter campaign going and maybe BA could give it one of his awesome reviews! :thumbsup: :laugh:

I'll call it the "Octogenarian Outrigger!" :yahoo:


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## wrathfuldeity (Oct 5, 2007)

chomps1211 said:


> Lol! Yeah,.. maybe!
> 
> In the meantime, maybe I should start working on some sort of "walker" attachment/accessory for geriatric snowboarders. I can get a Kickstarter campaign going and maybe BA could give it one of his awesome reviews! :thumbsup: :laugh:
> 
> I'll call it the "Octogenarian Outrigger!" :yahoo:


arm crutch with a snow skate attached or use a shower chair with a grom board on the bottom...


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## f00bar (Mar 6, 2014)

After a week off, a quick update. I had planned on a private lesson, but they were all booked for the day. I figured I'd take my chances and see how many showed up for the 2:00 group lesson. To my luck he was only one in his age group, so the $100 private turned into a $40 private.

Talked to the instructor and he confirmed it's a pretty common issue and he'd work it. He said he'd start with a run on the beginner slope just to see where he is and work from there. So not being a helicopter parent I disappeared and let him do his thing. About halfway through I did see him cruise by once down the regular slopes so that seemed like a good sign

At the end I went back over and saw he was back on the beginner area. Which kind of surprised me, but he was doing a nice heel to toe, etc S all the way down, about 10 turns linked, it's a pretty small slope. The instructor said from the get go he had no real issues nailing the toe on its own which was good, it was the linking he had trouble with in the beginning.

The only reason he went back to the beginner area was the rest of the mountain was pretty wind swept ice even in the afternoon and not very forgiving where as the beginner area warmed up nicely into some softer mashed potato.

We got 3 more runs in after the lesson. He's a bit more comfortable, still a lot of work. And even then the conditions were pretty icy, so he's still hesitant. And I'll sprinkle in some beginner slope runs throughout the day.


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## Ocho (Mar 13, 2011)

Sounds like it went well! Give it some time; it may take him a bit of practicing what he learned until it downloads fully. Plus as you mentioned, icy conditions don't exactly help with trying something new.


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## f00bar (Mar 6, 2014)

EatRideSleep said:


> Sounds like it went well! Give it some time; it may take him a bit of practicing what he learned until it downloads fully. Plus as you mentioned, icy conditions don't exactly with help trying something new.


Ya, I figure 2, maybe 3 more trips this season and conditions are going to be all over the place. So I'm not going to push. Though if i can get some more $40 privates I'll jump all over those.


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## Ocho (Mar 13, 2011)

f00bar said:


> Ya, I figure 2, maybe 3 more trips this season and conditions are going to be all over the place. So I'm not going to push. Though if i can get some more $40 privates I'll jump all over those.


Sounds like a good plan. Ha yeah, can't pass up that deal.

So, this might help with the download process. I instruct a bit in my profession (a different lifestyle sport). When my clients are learning something new - especially when they are struggling to master it or we're working on retraining an old habit - I end the lesson just after they have a moment of getting it, rather than when they've wavered back to their old habit/way. I find doing that helps the muscle memory and mind/body connection solidify what they're learning. 

By the next lesson, sometimes they've gotten it on lock, sometimes they're almost there. But always improved for the next time, when we "end on a good note."

Perhaps you can try that with your son when you're doing runs together. He doesn't even have to know (at that age he probably doesn't care :laugh. But if you see him get it, then waver, then get it again, suggest either calling it a day (if it's near that time) or stopping for a break. Even just a 5, 10, or 15 min span will help. Longer is ideal however.


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