# Pressuring The Front To Start A Turn



## wrathfuldeity (Oct 5, 2007)

RiderWise said:


> The reason being that it moves ones balance away from the centre of their board and causes the board to fish tail.


the above seems confusing....you want the weight on you nose to have the nose drop in to the fall line....AND...yes twist the board...also kind of depends on how tranverse or across the fall line a person when they start their turn. If ur doing shallow turns and the nose, say is within 45 degress or less of the fall line you can just barely twist the board and your weight will generally already be on the nose....and your board does not fish tail...it follows the nose unless a person is ruddering or gets in the back-seat and it gets squirrily. OTOH if a person is squarely tranverse or perpendicular to the fall line...just twisting the board seems kind of odd...but yes the board is twisted to release the uphill edge AND you weight the nose to get it to drop and once it is in the fall line you can twist it to initiate the turn....But perhaps its just two different ways of saying something with same result or a person need to do a bit of both to make it work...idk...not an instructor.


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## jlm1976 (Feb 26, 2009)

Staying centered all the time isn't really any better than staying forward all the time. The advantage of having them move their weight forward, in addition to the reasons wrath mentioned, is helps them learn to move their weight around on the board and plant the seed for coming forward at the start of the turn and moving back as the turn progresses. Typically students just need to focus on the moving the weight forward part and naturally drift back to center once they start turning. 
For their first turns on very flat terrain, a little fishtail is fine and can be corrected with a soft extension of the back leg. This adventitious as well since using the back leg in conjunction with the front is a very useful skill for intermediate and uneven terrain. 
Out of curiosity, how long have you been teaching/coaching? I checked out your site but all it said was you are "experienced".


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## poutanen (Dec 22, 2011)

RiderWise said:


> My view on this method is that I will never recommend it unless someone either has an extremely stiff board or lacks the muscular ability. The reason being that it moves ones balance away from the centre of their board and causes the board to fish tail. Although this may not be noticeable on your beginner greens, I find developing this habit can limit a riders performance on rougher and more diverse terrain and eventually becomes hard to change.


:blink:

The problem with most beginners (that I've seen) is they're scared to lean forward on their board. The ride "in the back seat" and subsequently spend days falling.

Getting over the front of your board to initiate the turn is a great way to teach them weight control. Of course once you've initiated the turn, you'll then centre your weight on the board so the edge has the most bite, and finally you can back off to finish the turn.

Nevertheless, I find all this online turn diagnosing kind of odd. The best thing to do is get a lesson from a good instructor who can SHOW the noob how it's done instead of describing it to them.

Imagine getting sex lessons on the internet:
- Step one, put your weight on your wrists to allow for free pelvic motion
- Step two, fumble around missing the hole for about 5 minutes
- Step three, once you've found the hole, spend the next 45 seconds trying desperately not to be a quick finisher
- Step four, fail at step three

Somethings are just better DOING than TALKING about...


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## Outlander (Nov 28, 2011)

There are a couple of things to consider. First, the heavy end of the board always wants to go down the hill first. Second, a beginner is almost always going to have speed anxiety and lean too far back. Third, in order for torsional twist to be effective, the front half of the board needs to be weighted. Fourth, a beginner has got a lot of new information to process and try to use so keep it simple at first. Fifth, the terrain a beginner should be riding is not so steep that staying in a static, weight forward position, will pose any real problem.

I find that the most effective teaching technique is to have the student keep their front knee more bent than their back and to shift their torso toward the nose. Then use their front ankle to pressure the toe and heel edge of the board to initiate basic skidded turns.

Later on, when a rider starts getting into more intermediate riding tasks, dynamically shifting weight becomes essential and by that time, the student has enough experience to understand more complex riding tasks. On steep, black diamond terrain is is critical to start the turn with an aggressive forward shift of their weight and as they complete their turn, shift that weight toward the tail. This forward aft movement is so key to maintaining good control and edge hold on steep terrain. 

Part of the reason the intermediate rider often reaches a plateau in their riding and seems to always struggle in very steep terrain is that they have had the idea of getting forward to initiate turns so ingrained into their minds, that they forget that there is absolutely a time to move aft. Along with correct timing of flexion and extension, good forward-aft movements are key to dynamic riding.

Also, remember the 4 board performance concepts of Twist, Tilt, Pivot and Pressure. To be an effective, efficient rider, we have to use and manage all four with good timing, intensity and duration.....


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## poutanen (Dec 22, 2011)

Outlander said:


> Also, remember the 4 board performance concepts of Twist, Tilt, Pivot and Pressure. To be an effective, efficient rider, we have to use and manage all four with good timing, intensity and duration.....


Speaking of which, I recently spent 3 days of training to be a patroller, and my boarding was graded. You wouldn't believe how much time they spend on the BASICS. I mean heel sliding, falling leaf (it's a toboggan control method), short radius turns (inside a cat track), medium radius turns (about double that).

At the end of it all they sit you down and let you know how you did on all of the above. Edge and pressure control, weight control, pivot, stance, etc. etc.

There were guys that had been boarding 25 years that got shit on! We can all work on the basics from time to time.


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## racer357 (Feb 3, 2011)

I would be curious to have someone critique my riding... LOL! 

I must do this weighting etc unconsciously? Perhaps not? :dunno:


I have been sliding down the hill on one of these things since 1992. I sure hope I haven't been doing it wrong all these years??

Is it reasonable to think that these movements are second nature to an old motocross racer?


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## BigmountainVMD (Oct 9, 2011)

I tell beginners to pressure the nose, but advanced riders to stay centered. To a beginner, when they think they are putting 70% of their weight on the front foot, it is usually much less. Even with advanced rider, I often ask the question "what do you think your weight distribution was during that turn?" Many say 50/50 and often that is not the case.


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## seriouscat (Jan 23, 2012)

It's pretty easy to tell by the amount of burn on each leg... If both of my legs are shot I am pretty happy with the day (minus the powder factor)


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## slyder (Jan 18, 2010)

RiderWise said:


> Now I realize that there is no right way to snowboard, there are only more efficient methods than others. I prefer to twist the board with my lead foot and knee to start a turn so that I can stay centred whilst smoothly getting the board to turn down the hill.
> 
> Any different perspectives on this, hit me up as I’m interested as to why it’s used and am always willing to expand my views on different ways to board.


Yes there is a right and wrong way to snowboard. I see it everyday at the hill with all level of riders 

So many good points have already been brought up not much else to add :dunno:


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## Bparmz (Sep 7, 2011)

Outlander said:


> There are a couple of things to consider. First, the heavy end of the board always wants to go down the hill first. Second, a beginner is almost always going to have speed anxiety and lean too far back. Third, in order for torsional twist to be effective, the front half of the board needs to be weighted. Fourth, a beginner has got a lot of new information to process and try to use so keep it simple at first. Fifth, the terrain a beginner should be riding is not so steep that staying in a static, weight forward position, will pose any real problem.
> 
> I find that the most effective teaching technique is to have the student keep their front knee more bent than their back and to shift their torso toward the nose. Then use their front ankle to pressure the toe and heel edge of the board to initiate basic skidded turns.
> 
> ...


Someone is just a bit familiar with AASI 

I don't think any of what you said could have been stated any better in this form of discussion:thumbsup:

Something I will do with clients is an exercise where I tell them to ride and make some turns with all their weight forward for a short time and then ask them to tell me how that feels and then I will have them ride for a short time while making some turns with their weight on their back leg and have them tell me how that feels. I usually do this when teaching lessons where the student is ready for more dynamic riding of course. More often than not, something will click in their mind and I will see a great improvement in their control on steeper terrain.


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## RiderWise (Dec 4, 2013)

Thanks for the input guys, some really valid points. I won't create too much banter over the subject as I too agree that online discussion only goes so far compared to the real thing.

A few mentioned something along the lines that moving fore/aft is part of becoming a more dynamic rider and is important for riding more difficult terrain. I couldn't agree more with this in terms of shifting weight aft as it allows you to get a better edge hold through the end of a turn and allows you to manage pressure more effectively at higher speeds. However, making your style more dynamic by shifting your weight fore still seems unnecessary when you can simply manipulate your board through twist with your knee and foot to achieve the same outcome while still staying in a strong centered stance.

@jlm1976 - 3 years. Sorry the site is quite new, the about section does still need a bit of work and it's on my to do list.





Outlander said:


> Second, a beginner is almost always going to have speed anxiety and lean too far back. Third, in order for torsional twist to be effective, the front half of the board needs to be weighted. Fourth, a beginner has got a lot of new information to process and try to use so keep it simple at first.


To correct someone who is leaning too far back, I'd agree with telling them to lean forward, but I don't find this happens too much so long as they're on appropriate terrain. I don't find that I need a fore movement to twist the board unless it's too stiff. Twisting the board through a lateral movement from the foot, and if needed, the knee/hip is what I prefer to suggest as it doesn't complicate things with leaning forward and back throughout the turn. In other words, I still don't see why you should move your whole body weight forward when you can just use one limb. In terms of pressure to help start a turn, un-weighting seems to manage that well enough.

Nonetheless, no harm in trying out a bit of fore movement to make some more dynamic turns. Thanks for that Outlander, really good info there. I know using aft works brilliantly when timed and performed correctly so I'll be sure to play around with some fore movement and see how it goes.​




racer357 said:


> I would be curious to have someone critique my riding... LOL!
> 
> I must do this weighting etc unconsciously? Perhaps not? :dunno:
> 
> ...


I'd be happy to try and help Racer; although can you elaborate a little more.​




slyder said:


> Yes there is a right and wrong way to snowboard. I see it everyday at the hill with all level of riders.


Apologies for the misunderstanding, I didn't literally mean it in that way. What I meant by that was that there's a lot more ways to snowboard than just one.​


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## tonicusa (Feb 27, 2008)

Aside from the AASI basics that have been mentioned here, flexion, extension, twist, tilt, pivot, pressure, I like to plant the "idea" of riding with your feet. This concept relates well to a relatively quiet upper body or one where the hips aren't breaking, shoulders twisting etc. The old "roll the walnut" in your boot concept works well to emphasize working the board with your feet. There is still weight shift but it is initiated from the feet and focused in the hip. It becomes a good way to show a rider how responsive the board becomes when you properly point your hip, and of course their head.


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## jlm1976 (Feb 26, 2009)

RiderWise said:


> A few mentioned something along the lines that moving fore/aft is part of becoming a more dynamic rider and is important for riding more difficult terrain. I couldn't agree more with this in terms of shifting weight aft as it allows you to get a better edge hold through the end of a turn and allows you to manage pressure more effectively at higher speeds. However, making your style more dynamic by shifting your weight fore still seems unnecessary when you can simply manipulate your board through twist with your knee and foot to achieve the same outcome while still staying in a strong centered stance.


For beginning turns, either method works and alot of it comes down to the student you are teaching and the terrain you have to work with. At my mountain, the beginner terrain is fairly steep for a learning area so students' weight naturally drift back and the best way to fix that is to be proactive and get their weight forward. Also, while staying centered and just using a small movement of the foot to twist the board does work, shifting the weight slightly forward bends the joints of the front leg more giving you more range of motion. But I have taught a neutral, centered stance as well and had it be effective. Again, the best method for a beginner depends heavily on the student and terrain. 
If the staying centered method is working for you, then keep doing it! But I would encourage you to explore other options as well so when it doesn't work, you can pull a different rabbit out of your hat!


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## Outlander (Nov 28, 2011)

RiderWise said:


> A few mentioned something along the lines that moving fore/aft is part of becoming a more dynamic rider and is important for riding more difficult terrain. I couldn't agree more with this in terms of shifting weight aft as it allows you to get a better edge hold through the end of a turn and allows you to manage pressure more effectively at higher speeds. However, making your style more dynamic by shifting your weight fore still seems unnecessary when you can simply manipulate your board through twist with your knee and foot to achieve the same outcome while still staying in a strong centered stance.


Where you will notice a performance increase in the forward shift for dynamic riding is in very steep terrain (greater than 45 degrees) and/or in hard or icy surfaces to really get that edge set early in the turn. Icy bumps is another place where a lot of fore-aft movement pays off and the forward shift can be just as important as the aft movement which you have already had positive experience with.


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## chomps1211 (Mar 30, 2011)

poutanen said:


> ....Nevertheless, I find all this online turn diagnosing kind of odd. The best thing to do is get a lesson from a good instructor who can SHOW the noob how it's done instead of describing it to them.
> 
> *Imagine getting sex lessons on the internet:*
> - Step one, put your weight on your wrists to allow for free pelvic motion
> ...


LOL! I just can't help wondering,...

...Exactly how much "_Paid_" instruction have you received in this area?? ...and were they certified? :laugh:



....of course, I have no doubt that you've had plenty of "Internet Coaching" on the subject! :laugh::laugh:


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## Deacon (Mar 2, 2013)

I do know that I'm amazed at how much ruddering I see/hear on my lift rides up. I had beginner lessons, but not much since, beyond what I've read and tried to implement from here. Point being, keep up the good work y'all. :yahoo:


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## scott_murray (May 5, 2013)

The Deacon said:


> I do know that I'm amazed at how much ruddering I see/here on my lift rides up. I had beginner lessons, but not much since, beyond what I've read and tried to implement from here. Point being, keep up the good work y'all. :yahoo:


Kind of off topic question. Is ruddering acceptable under certain circumstances? I am practicing to get better edge control on really steep terrain where I need fast turns to stay in control (speed anxiety?), but I often resort to some ruddering to skid out some of my speed.

Now that I write this I'm realizing it's almost entirely speed anxiety. Fuck.


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## Deacon (Mar 2, 2013)

scott_murray said:


> Kind of off topic question. Is ruddering acceptable under certain circumstances? I am practicing to get better edge control on really steep terrain where I need fast turns to stay in control (speed anxiety?), but I often resort to some ruddering to skid out some of my speed.
> 
> Now that I write this I'm realizing it's almost entirely speed anxiety. Fuck.


I know that, for myself, when I'm railing across a run, I'll throw my tail out (rudder) to cut speed, usually because of terrain traps on our tracked out groomers... Or dipshits in front of me not being clear about their movements.


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## Jed (May 11, 2011)

scott_murray said:


> Kind of off topic question. Is ruddering acceptable under certain circumstances? I am practicing to get better edge control on really steep terrain where I need fast turns to stay in control (speed anxiety?), but I often resort to some ruddering to skid out some of my speed.
> 
> Now that I write this I'm realizing it's almost entirely speed anxiety. Fuck.


Basically ruddering is fine if you're doing it on purpose, purely as a speed check to do a quick brake and get rid of some speed quickly. In this case it's not really called ruddering, but rather just called doing a 'speed check' to shave off some speed.

However, if you use it in order to help turn, that's when you know you're on the wrong track.


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## snowklinger (Aug 30, 2011)

Jed said:


> Basically ruddering is fine if you're doing it on purpose, purely as a speed check to do a quick brake and get rid of some speed quickly. In this case it's not really called ruddering, but rather just called doing a 'speed check' to shave off some speed.
> 
> However, if you use it in order to help turn, that's when you know you're on the wrong track.


yea theres a million reasons to "rudder" as an "expert" under "xxx" conditions, when you know the difference, you know.


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## SnowMasterFlex (Dec 10, 2013)

I struggle so much to put my weight equally in the front and back. I am always keeping it in the back because my odd fear of going fast. It's getting better now that I am forcing myself to go on blues and go faster. I can feel myself not in control when I am in the back and it forces me to conquer my fear and evenly distribute my weight to initiate turning. I really ought to get some private lessons but they are damned expensive!


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## mixre (Mar 12, 2012)

poutanen said:


> :blink:
> 
> 
> Imagine getting sex lessons on the internet:
> ...


45 seconds? This isn't a marathon you showoff!:eusa_clap:


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## poutanen (Dec 22, 2011)

mixre said:


> 45 seconds? This isn't a marathon you showoff!:eusa_clap:


Of course 45 seconds... I usually figure it's worth going twice once you're already naked!


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## Casual (Feb 9, 2011)

poutanen said:


> Of course 45 seconds... I usually figure it's worth going twice once you're already naked!





SnowMasterFlex said:


> I am always keeping it in the back because my odd fear of going fast. I can feel myself not in control when I am in the back and it forces me to conquer my fear. I really ought to get some private lessons but they are damned expensive!


What in the fuck is going on in this thread?


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## poutanen (Dec 22, 2011)

Casual said:


> What in the fuck is going on in this thread?


He's trying to find a place to get anal lessons... :blink:


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## Casual (Feb 9, 2011)

poutanen said:


> He's trying to find a place to get anal lessons... :blink:


At least he's looking for private lessons, that could get wierd in a group.


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## poutanen (Dec 22, 2011)

Casual said:


> At least he's looking for private lessons, that could get wierd in a group.


I'm sure there are some swingers clubs that could help?!?


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## mixre (Mar 12, 2012)

Casual said:


> What in the fuck is going on in this thread?



You're getting warm.




Casual said:


> Originally Posted by SnowMasterFlex
> I am always keeping it in the back because my odd fear of going fast. I can feel myself not in control when I am in the back and it forces me to conquer my fear.



I feel like it goes way too fast when I'm in the back....


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## poutanen (Dec 22, 2011)

mixre said:


> I feel like it goes way too fast when I'm in the back....


I think I'm one of the few who still prefers riding the front... :blink:


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## Casual (Feb 9, 2011)

poutanen said:


> I think I'm one of the few who still prefers riding the front... :blink:


Depends what your riding... sometimes the front is worn out.


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## chomps1211 (Mar 30, 2011)

mixre said:


> 45 seconds? This isn't a marathon you showoff!:eusa_clap:





poutanen said:


> Of course 45 seconds... I usually figure it's worth going twice once you're already naked!


...Reminds me of an old joke about how sex progresses throughout the course of a relationship,


Tri-weekly

Try weekly

Try weakly!


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## mixre (Mar 12, 2012)

poutanen said:


> I think I'm one of the few who still prefers riding the front... :blink:


:thumbsup: easier to get a read that way!


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## mixre (Mar 12, 2012)

chomps1211 said:


> ...reminds me of an old joke about how sex progresses throughout the course of a relationship,
> 
> 
> tri-weekly
> ...


youuuu know its sad but trueeeeee


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## bryandavis (Jan 19, 2013)

Outlander said:


> There are a couple of things to consider. First, the heavy end of the board always wants to go down the hill first.
> 
> Third, in order for torsional twist to be effective, the front half of the board needs to be weighted.


Sorry for the late addition, but I couldn't let this go. The weighted end of the board does not want to go down hill first. The end of the board bearing the most pressure against the surface of the snow becomes a pivot point due to increased friction. It is indeed the end that does not want to go downhill! People sometime confuse "launching" the center of mass toward downhill (thus weighting downhill foot) as the board being heavy and thus the cause of its travel toward downhill. All other things being neutral, a weighted foot will become the trailing, uphillmost foot, not the downhill foot.

Secondly, twist is effective with 10% front and 90% aft weighted. Twist will affect how each end of the board tries to turn (while there is an element of glide). While the more lightly weighted end of the board will not have as much purchase, if it touches the ground and can cause friction it will turn (and twist will affect direction). Admittedly, in this case the aft part of the board will turn more aggressively due to the increased edge set due to pressure distributed toward the tail. 

Finally, this begs to the OPs original post. I agree there is no "right" way to snowboard from a big picture. However, the rider would be wise to consider the "right" way will produce the best result for his or her intended outcome. That being said, there may be times when that is produced by riding 50/50 (fore/aft). All too often, as you stated, riders get stuck riding forward too much as a result of an instructor's advice to "get more forward" over and over and over again. Centered is a beautiful place to ride in and out of at will. It is a place we should all seek to be able to attain at will at any point in our ride should we desire.

I am a fan of riding centered for beginners. But not to the extent that I impress that it is "the place to ride". Rather, I wish to impress it is a place you want to be able to move to and through while you ride. 

As an aside, to increase your efficiency when at transition...


RiderWise said:


> I prefer to twist the board with my lead foot and knee to start a turn so that I can stay centred whilst smoothly getting the board to turn down the hill.


Try increasing edge angle on the trailing foot toward the end of the turn to begin your twist. Thus, you will by comparison flatten the tip, it will start the turn. This may give you more accurate alignment over both feet, with maximum twist created by your ability to best utilize your ankle knee and hip joints by being centered (say 50/50) over the deck. The advantage a result of not trying to start the turn with only the lead foot, which often leads to a forward move limiting range of motion in the aftermost joints.


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