# Union Force with 11 Burton Rulers - M/L or L/XL



## 24WERD (May 9, 2012)

large union


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## gnarstradamus (Jan 12, 2016)

Never rode Burton boots so I'm not familiar with the shrinkage tech you're referring to - does it make that big of a difference? I ride L/XL Unions with Size 11 DC Judges BUT my boot didn't fit well in M Cartels so you may be in a different boat if yours do. I had to order L size strap / toecap from Burton for the season I used M Cartels, and L had too much room (laterally) in the foot bed but I rode those for a season as well. Been riding L/XL Unions all this season and they've been a really good fit but YMMV.


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## MMSlasher (Mar 18, 2016)

I'm not familiar with that combo, but I imagine that if you are coming here to ask that question is because they are on sale online. So buy both and send the one back that doesn't work. Talk to a rep from the store about it first and they will likely accommodate you. If you are not buying online, take your boot with you to the store.


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## kingneptune117 (Mar 10, 2011)

gnarstradamus said:


> Never rode Burton boots so I'm not familiar with the shrinkage tech you're referring to - does it make that big of a difference? I ride L/XL Unions with Size 11 DC Judges BUT my boot didn't fit well in M Cartels so you may be in a different boat if yours do. I had to order L size strap / toecap from Burton for the season I used M Cartels, and L had too much room (laterally) in the foot bed but I rode those for a season as well. Been riding L/XL Unions all this season and they've been a really good fit but YMMV.


Do you ride a wide board? I am getting a Never Summer Proto HD 157. It has a 253mm waist width. I am worried that the large Union Forces will hang off the edge of the board, which I do not want.


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## Brewtown (Feb 16, 2014)

Size 11 boots are a pain in the ass. I wear size 11 32s, which are pretty close to Burtons footprint and L/XL is the definite choice. The difference in footprint would have to be pretty significant to fit into a M/L. Now Unions footbeds do run long compared to Burton so you might get a small amount of overhang with a L/XL Union binding on a 253 ww board, but there's no issues with a little binding overhang, you won't even notice it when riding. 

Here's where things get tricky...Normally I would say go with the normal width board, but the Proto is a pretty easy turning deck so you could probably get away with a wide depending on what size you go with. I looked up the specs and the 155w has a 261 ww which is totally doable, but if you jump up to the 158w the 264 ww is getting to the point where you will notice slower turn initiation. 

My advice would be to stick with the Cartels. I love Union, it's all I ride right now, but that's primarily because they fit my boots the best and pair well with the boards I ride. The Cartels are an awesome binding, I can tell you from personal experience they are a great match with a Proto and it simplifies your sizing conundrum.


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## kingneptune117 (Mar 10, 2011)

Brewtown said:


> Size 11 boots are a pain in the ass. I wear size 11 32s, which are pretty close to Burtons footprint and L/XL is the definite choice. The difference in footprint would have to be pretty significant to fit into a M/L. Now Unions footbeds do run long compared to Burton so you might get a small amount of overhang with a L/XL Union binding on a 253 ww board, but there's no issues with a little binding overhang, you won't even notice it when riding.
> 
> Here's where things get tricky...Normally I would say go with the normal width board, but the Proto is a pretty easy turning deck so you could probably get away with a wide depending on what size you go with. I looked up the specs and the 155w has a 261 ww which is totally doable, but if you jump up to the 158w the 264 ww is getting to the point where you will notice slower turn initiation.
> 
> My advice would be to stick with the Cartels. I love Union, it's all I ride right now, but that's primarily because they fit my boots the best and pair well with the boards I ride. The Cartels are an awesome binding, I can tell you from personal experience they are a great match with a Proto and it simplifies your sizing conundrum.


Thanks for the reply.

Yes, I was considering the 155 wide. I was just concerned that would be too short for my liking. In addition to that, the 8mm waist width difference between the 155w and the 157 is not very much, not enough to make a difference as far as binding overhang anyways, I wouldn't think.

Here's my thought process: The Cartel mediums fit my 11 burton rulers. So, the Force Medium/Larges would theoretically also fit my 11 burton rulers. Do Unions run narrow or something? 

I read somewhere that some people were fitting 10.5 normal boots into medium/large forces, so I would think my shrinkage tech 11 Rulers would fit also (which are technically the footprint of a 10). 

Let me know your thoughts. Thanks!


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## Brewtown (Feb 16, 2014)

kingneptune117 said:


> Thanks for the reply.
> 
> Yes, I was considering the 155 wide. I was just concerned that would be too short for my liking. In addition to that, the 8mm waist width difference between the 155w and the 157 is not very much, not enough to make a difference as far as binding overhang anyways, I wouldn't think.
> 
> ...


First of all, the amount of binding overhang were talking about will have no effect on performance, you won't notice it at all while your riding. The only reason it would be a problem is if your the OCD type where it will bother you the way it looks. 

With all that said I'm bored and I've been in your situation before so I'll play along... Depending on your stance width, binding angles, board sidecut, etc. 8mm can make a difference with binding overhang. If I recall correctly my Forces noticeably overhang on a 252, were right at the edge on a 254, and just barely inside the sidewalls on a 258. But again lots of variables at play. More importantly 8mm will make a big difference in how a board rides and this should be your real point of concern. I'm not going to get into board sizing here, but don't sacrifice length for the right width, get a board with the specs that fit what you like. 

As far as Union sizing, they run long and narrow. The footbed on a Burton Large is shorter and wider than a Union L/XL. You could MAYBE fit into a M/L but even if you did it would be super tight in the heelcup and you would have the straps maxed out. You might be able to make it work but it would most likely be a less than ideal fit. 

If the whole binding overhang thing is really a big issue to you I would either look to a different binding or a different board that comes in true midwide sizes.


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## SGboarder (Jun 24, 2012)

Brewtown said:


> First of all, *the amount of binding overhang were talking about will have no effect on performance, you won't notice it at all while your riding*. The only reason it would be a problem is if your the OCD type where it will bother you the way it looks.
> 
> With all that said I'm bored and I've been in your situation before so I'll play along... Depending on your stance width, binding angles, board sidecut, etc. 8mm can make a difference with binding overhang. If I recall correctly my Forces noticeably overhang on a 252, were right at the edge on a 254, and just barely inside the sidewalls on a 258. But again lots of variables at play. *More importantly 8mm will make a big difference in how a board rides and this should be your real point of concern*. I'm not going to get into board sizing here, but *don't sacrifice length for the right width, get a board with the specs that fit what you like*.
> 
> ...


^^^ Listen to this man, especially on the points in bold.



kingneptune117 said:


> the 8mm waist width difference between the 155w and the 157 is not very much, not enough to make a difference as far as binding overhang anyways, I wouldn't think.


Incorrect, see above.




kingneptune117 said:


> I would think my shrinkage tech 11 Rulers would fit also (which are technically the footprint of a 10).


Shrinkage tech boots are not automatically (let alone exactly) 1 size smaller on the outside than other boots. That is just a general guideline compared to old Burton boots from several years ago. Almost all manufacturers have reduced the exterior dimensions/footprint since then. How much really depends on the individual boot. A size 9.5 Burton Ion has the same footprint as a size 10 or 10.5 Burton Ambush.


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## gnarstradamus (Jan 12, 2016)

kingneptune117 said:


> Do you ride a wide board? I am getting a Never Summer Proto HD 157. It has a 253mm waist width. I am worried that the large Union Forces will hang off the edge of the board, which I do not want.


I ride a T Rice 153 and a Hot Knife 156, both are 253mm waist width and my bindings don't hang over at all. The boots do slights though - My boards are up at the mountain right now or I'd take photo's for you, but if I measure from the base of the board with a boot in it, it's .5" on the toe, .5" on the heel and that's perfectly fine. You'd still have to be almost inverted on your edge before your toe will touch because of how high they sit off the board. I euro carve my ass off and I've never once had toe drag. If it helps at all my binding angles are pretty mellow too at 12 front and -9 back.


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## gnarstradamus (Jan 12, 2016)

kingneptune117 said:


> Thanks for the reply.
> 
> Yes, I was considering the 155 wide. I was just concerned that would be too short for my liking. In addition to that, the 8mm waist width difference between the 155w and the 157 is not very much, not enough to make a difference as far as binding overhang anyways, I wouldn't think.
> 
> ...


The Union footbed on the L/XL is as long as the M Cartel with the toe ramp adjustment fully extended (I know this because I had to max it out when I used the M's so that it would ramp up to my boot properly), and it is wider than the M Cartels but narrower than the L Cartels, which was exactly where I needed it personally. 

If you're going to go and test how the Unions will fit in terms of length by extending your toe ramp out all the way (which I assume you may be doing anyway with size 11's) make sure you check to see if the binding is centered before you throw a boot in it and analyze the toe drag situation. You probably have to adjust the highback first to get the boot to sit centered and then you'll get a good idea of how much overhang with your boot you'd get.

Side Note: I always had to mess with the toe ramp / high back on Cartels to get a boot centered regardless of size, but the L/XL Unions sat perfectly right out of the box which makes me think they are really the right binding for size 11 boots. I always felt like 11's sat in this weird size limbo between M and L in Burton bindings which was ultimately why I tried a different manufacturer.


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## SGboarder (Jun 24, 2012)

gnarstradamus said:


> You probably have to adjust the highback first to get the boot to sit centered and then you'll get a good idea of how much overhang with your boot you'd get.
> 
> Side Note: I always had to mess with the toe ramp / high back on Cartels to get a boot centered


No highback adjustment on Burton bidings (other than rotation and lean)...



gnarstradamus said:


> I always felt like 11's sat in this weird size limbo between M and L in Burton bindings which was ultimately why I tried a different manufacturer.


Agree, size 11 can be problematic with Burton bindings, especially Re:flex ones (because of the smaller adjustment range on the disk).


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## gnarstradamus (Jan 12, 2016)

SGboarder said:


> No highback adjustment on Burton bidings (other than rotation and lean)...
> 
> 
> Agree, size 11 can be problematic with Burton bindings, especially Re:flex ones (because of the smaller adjustment range on the disk).


Yea you're right I forgot there isn't a high back adjustment on Burtons. You have to use the 3 vertical holes in the disk to adjust where the heel sits on the board - what I said earlier about making sure your boot sits centered still applies just a different way you'd be adjusting it. Unions have a high back adjustment if its any consolation.


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## kingneptune117 (Mar 10, 2011)

gnarstradamus said:


> The Union footbed on the L/XL is as long as the M Cartel with the toe ramp adjustment fully extended (I know this because I had to max it out when I used the M's so that it would ramp up to my boot properly), and it is wider than the M Cartels but narrower than the L Cartels, which was exactly where I needed it personally.
> 
> If you're going to go and test how the Unions will fit in terms of length by extending your toe ramp out all the way (which I assume you may be doing anyway with size 11's) make sure you check to see if the binding is centered before you throw a boot in it and analyze the toe drag situation. You probably have to adjust the highback first to get the boot to sit centered and then you'll get a good idea of how much overhang with your boot you'd get.
> 
> Side Note: I always had to mess with the toe ramp / high back on Cartels to get a boot centered regardless of size, but the L/XL Unions sat perfectly right out of the box which makes me think they are really the right binding for size 11 boots. I always felt like 11's sat in this weird size limbo between M and L in Burton bindings which was ultimately why I tried a different manufacturer.


Thanks for the reply! What Unions are you referencing? The forces?


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## kingneptune117 (Mar 10, 2011)

24WERD said:


> large union


Good call bro. I just got the bindings, and yep, the large is a perfect fit. In fact, the back of my boot has no wiggle room at all. I have no idea how people fit anything bigger than an 11.5 in this binding.

I have the Burton Rulers, which have the shrinkage tech too. It is a tight fit near the heel since the material they used to mount the highback to the lower part of the binding is pretty thick, which takes up space where the bottom heel side of the boot fits.

Unfortunately, looks like I am gonna want the Proto HDX. The binding overhangs a bit on the 157 HD, and maybe that wouldn't be a big deal, but I'd rather be on the safe side at the expense of a bit of turn initiation.

Thanks again!


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## notfound (Feb 27, 2013)

kingneptune117 said:


> Hey all,
> 
> Pretty much the title. The Burton rulers have the shrinkage tech. I use a set of Medium Burton Cartels right now which are a good fit with the 11 Burton rulers, will the M/L Union Forces fit this boot alright?
> 
> Thanks.



I didn't want to create a brand new thread on this... I am in the same boat: riding Medium Cartels with the 11 Burton Ambush. Perfect fit. I need another set of bindings and I am thinking Atlases or Forces.

Any changes to how 17's and 18's Unions fit compared to the older models? My boots have the shrinkage technology. Should I go with the Large Unions like the OP or should I try the Medium size, same as my current Cartels?


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## Rip154 (Sep 23, 2017)

Large, medium could be to narrow.


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## a_human (Aug 31, 2016)

Rather than starting a whole new thread for a v similar question I'll put it here... 

Union's size chart says get an M for boots <10 and L for 10+... But what if you ARE a 10?

I've got K2 Maysis+ and they'll be going in Contact Pros. Am I better off sizing up or down?

Don't have the luxury of trying in a shop, gotta figure it out before hitting that buy now button.


_Edit: I've been riding L/XL Forces for ages, they fit fine but with the heelcup on the smallest setting etc, so I wanna know if sizing down will be a better fit or nah_


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