# K2 cinch v. Gnu v. Flow - sorry to beat a dead horse but..



## BurtonAvenger

This will give you the breakdown you're probably looking for The Angry Snowboarder Blog Archive Taking It In The Rear


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## swilber08

get some flows i love mine ....the gnu's are a rip off of somebody else's design i believe


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## Wiredsport

snowbrdr said:


> I am considering trying the NXT ATs if anything in the Flow line up but I feel like I may not like a fit that doesn't feel snug in the binding.
> 
> 
> 
> I would suggest clamping into a pair. You can crank the AT's in so that your you have an ultra snug fit. Rear entry may be the draw, but it is the support and the performance factors that have grown Flow to becom the 2nd largest binding company. The ratchets are not a minor factor and in 2011, I would not consider a binding without them. They not only offer traditional ratchet only entry, but they are also critical for easy on slope adjustment.
Click to expand...


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## snowbrdr

Wiredsport said:


> snowbrdr said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am considering trying the NXT ATs if anything in the Flow line up but I feel like I may not like a fit that doesn't feel snug in the binding.
> 
> 
> 
> I would suggest clamping into a pair. You can crank the AT's in so that your you have an ultra snug fit. Rear entry may be the draw, but it is the support and the performance factors that have grown Flow to becom the 2nd largest binding company. The ratchets are not a minor factor and in 2011, I would not consider a binding without them. They not only offer traditional ratchet only entry, but they are also critical for easy on slope adjustment.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks everyone for your input. I think you're right and I need to try the Flows and see how they feel. I found a local store that is going to order a pair of NXT ATs and let me mount them on my board and try them out, in the store anyway.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


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## Cavman

Gnus are made by Sp Fastec, you can find all the info on them here and their latest models, Videos are here. I have the new 2011 Brotherhood and dam they are great, the extra ratchet alows for those tweaks when you need them.

Having said that I also use K2 CTX, Not sure why everyone says too many moving parts. I have not had an issue and yes they move when you put them on and they move when you take them off, but after that they are totally secure, more so than the Fastecs, As for weight, sorry I am not doing 360's and so forth but I have never felt the weight and it has never stopped me carving hard and fast amongst the trees.


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## snowbrdr

Cavman said:


> Gnus are made by Sp Fastec, you can find all the info on them here and their latest models, Videos are here. I have the new 2011 Brotherhood and dam they are great, the extra ratchet alows for those tweaks when you need them.
> 
> Having said that I also use K2 CTX, Not sure why everyone says too many moving parts. I have not had an issue and yes they move when you put them on and they move when you take them off, but after that they are totally secure, more so than the Fastecs, As for weight, sorry I am not doing 360's and so forth but I have never felt the weight and it has never stopped me carving hard and fast amongst the trees.


I had a long conversation with a guy at Berg's ski/snowboard shop last night who tries out all the gear. He has tried them all out and I mentioned the weight of the ctx's compared to the gnus. He had a digital scale and the ctxs are .2 oz more than the gnus - pretty much the same. He also likes the ctx feel a bit more than the gnus, if you like feeling tight in the binding. He had me leaning back towards the ctx binding for the cantilevered bed, i have a short instep so consider my stance pretty wide.


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## swilber08

Wiredsport said:


> snowbrdr said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am considering trying the NXT ATs if anything in the Flow line up but I feel like I may not like a fit that doesn't feel snug in the binding.
> 
> 
> 
> I would suggest clamping into a pair. You can crank the AT's in so that your you have an ultra snug fit. Rear entry may be the draw, but it is the support and the performance factors that have grown Flow to becom the 2nd largest binding company. The ratchets are not a minor factor and in 2011, I would not consider a binding without them. They not only offer traditional ratchet only entry, but they are also critical for easy on slope adjustment.
> 
> 
> 
> :thumbsup:
> 
> ...I would not be worried about not feeling snug in some flows. especially if you get the NXT's cause they are highly adjustable. It took me a while to get them the way I wanted them, but now I think ill never ride any other kind of bindings again. I love the consistency of the rear entry too...no more guessing on ratchets and having your support feel different on every run
> 
> oh yea and based on my experience, during a sesh at the mountain with your buddies you'll end up getting 1 or 2 more runs than they do just because of the speed of the rear entry...I normally dont even have to stop after getting off the lift
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


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## Cavman

snowbrdr said:


> I had a long conversation with a guy at Berg's ski/snowboard shop last night who tries out all the gear. He has tried them all out and I mentioned the weight of the ctx's compared to the gnus. He had a digital scale and the ctxs are .2 oz more than the gnus - pretty much the same. He also likes the ctx feel a bit more than the gnus, if you like feeling tight in the binding. He had me leaning back towards the ctx binding for the cantilevered bed, i have a short instep so consider my stance pretty wide.




Don't you just love true facts over internet dribble that is handed down as facts. That will go a long way to explain why I don't feel any difference in the weigth of these bindings.. Because there isn't any. :thumbsup::thumbsup:


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## Enormo

*interesting opinion*

The Angry Snowboarder Blog Archive Taking It In The Rear

Saw this in the comments after the article. This guy seemed to have a pretty thorough take (there are some other interesting comments too):

I saw a guy who couldn’t get into his 2 strap binding cause he couldn’t get all the snow out. I think a binding is a 3 step thing, is it comfortable, how it rides & convience, the last part depends on the user. Same deal with boots. 

Cinch, I didn’t like how the binding rode(too soft of a hiback), heavier than hell, was comfortable, but convience was lacking since the straps would ratchet down or move before you got in. I still have never seen somebody use a cinch by lowering the hiback. 

The fastec binding, what GNU & 16 other companies use has come a long ways as far as look, I only rode a the cheapest version from a couple of years ago. You had to take apart the whole binding just to adjust it, including forward lean, binding was painful, rode like shit & you still have to adjust the cap strap to get in & click the ankle lever down. So, I would just buy a 2 strap since i have to do the same stuff anyways. 

Flow, which I have, I like, but I’m use to them. My first time took me a couple of runs to get use to since I tried to crank them down like a 2 strap….which you don’t do & I like that it’s just one step, usually I just kick my foot in just after getting off the lift. My super old ones, I didn’t like the hiback, but now they have hibacks that are way more comfy & either stiffer or torsionally softer. This is the only binding that actually rides different, the others ride like 2 straps. Maybe it’s me, but I feel more in control in rough terrain.

Apo, has been around for 7 years I think, it rode ok, still had to adjust the cap strap everytime I got in, but the rest worked fine. Problem is I don’t know where you can get them in the states & am not a big fan of hinges.

Pretty much all these bindings have ratchets or something that you can just lift up to get in normally or to clear snow out or if your on a steep slope


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## Cavman

Fastec Brotherhoods and Troopas are totally tool-less adjustment, I can't comment on the other moels. Forward lean is a twist of a knurled roller with fingers, no need to even remove boot from binding to adjust, just lower the high back and adjust then raise it up.

The toe strap is adjusted at set up and thats it. If you adjust it afterwards there is a good chance you will force the boot too far rearwards in the binding and not be able to lower the high back properly. Been there myself. 

The toe strap/cap in reality is irrelevant. Heel side turns involve the heel pushing, not the toe lifting. Toe side is the same. The toe cap does not have to exert lots of tension to work. In the Fastec set up the toe cap is pushed firmly onto the boot and locked. The highback is lowered and the boot removed, the toe strap is then taken in one notch each side. It is then deemed to be correct tension for when you put the boot back in. The ankle strap can be tightened and the high back can be adjusted as much as you like, just don't go messing with the toe cap, it doesn't need it.

As for snow/ice getting in the binding and stopping you getting your foot in, that applies to any binding. I can't see the difference between a traditional two strap binding and the Fastec, they both have the same straps but the Fastec also lowers the highback. 

For me the step ins are for convenience, I am 6ft 5in and 45yrs my feet are a long way down there, the less time I spend bent down or sitting on the snow the better for me.


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## snowbrdr

Cavman said:


> Fastec Brotherhoods and Troopas are totally tool-less adjustment, I can't comment on the other moels. Forward lean is a twist of a knurled roller with fingers, no need to even remove boot from binding to adjust, just lower the high back and adjust then raise it up.
> 
> The toe strap is adjusted at set up and thats it. If you adjust it afterwards there is a good chance you will force the boot too far rearwards in the binding and not be able to lower the high back properly. Been there myself.
> 
> The toe strap/cap in reality is irrelevant. Heel side turns involve the heel pushing, not the toe lifting. Toe side is the same. The toe cap does not have to exert lots of tension to work. In the Fastec set up the toe cap is pushed firmly onto the boot and locked. The highback is lowered and the boot removed, the toe strap is then taken in one notch each side. It is then deemed to be correct tension for when you put the boot back in. The ankle strap can be tightened and the high back can be adjusted as much as you like, just don't go messing with the toe cap, it doesn't need it.
> 
> As for snow/ice getting in the binding and stopping you getting your foot in, that applies to any binding. I can't see the difference between a traditional two strap binding and the Fastec, they both have the same straps but the Fastec also lowers the highback.
> 
> For me the step ins are for convenience, I am 6ft 5in and 45yrs my feet are a long way down there, the less time I spend bent down or sitting on the snow the better for me.


So Cavman, you ride both CTX and Fastecs - which do you like better? I am an all mountain kinda rider and mostly stay out of the parks. I am leaning towards the CTXs mostly because they have been around longer and a lot more info about them. I would think that the mechanism would ultimately create problems and loosen up or have other malfunctions as opposed to the Fastecs but I haven't heard much of any on the user forums - and since they are way more available at local stores, probably easier to get parts. They also look a little easier to get into if the snow is deeper and not groomed.


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## Leo

snowbrdr said:


> So Cavman, you ride both CTX and Fastecs - which do you like better? I am an all mountain kinda rider and mostly stay out of the parks. I am leaning towards the CTXs mostly because they have been around longer and a lot more info about them. I would think that the mechanism would ultimately create problems and loosen up or have other malfunctions as opposed to the Fastecs but I haven't heard much of any on the user forums - and since they are way more available at local stores, probably easier to get parts. They also look a little easier to get into if the snow is deeper and not groomed.


Flow has been around the longest 

And if you get 2009 model or higher, powder won't be a problem. You can just undo the outer straps and strap in like normal. The SE versions make that even easier.


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## swilber08

Leo said:


> Flow has been around the longest
> 
> And if you get 2009 model or higher, powder won't be a problem. You can just undo the outer straps and strap in like normal. The SE versions make that even easier.


agreed :thumbsup:


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## Wiredsport

swilber08 said:


> agreed :thumbsup:


...and the 2011 ratchets have been upgraded and upsized all the way down the line. Full dual entry and micro tuning performance has seen a huge upgrade in 2011. :cheeky4::cheeky4::cheeky4:


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## girlsare2fun

With the advice of some of the guys on here, like Leo, I went with the Flow NXT-AT and I'm pretty excited about them. I like the way they look and I feel the larger surface area will allow me to tighten the binding without having pressure points on my feet. I was curious and I found a great deal at my local sports chalet (50% of on 2010 models), so my risk is minimal. Plus, I just felt the length of time that Flow has been in the rear entry binding market should give them an advantage in making a better product.

here's my binding n board I just got.....


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## lisevolution

All I have to say about the Cinch's is that K2 also makes the Auto line which outsells the Cinch significantly... The weight issue has probably been somewhat reconciled over the last couple of years but the design is still the same and at least to me has never really been that good. I like their concept and the same goes with Fastec's which I was also looking into but at the end of the day if I'm going to go step-in it's going to be Flow. I had a pair of Amp's a few years back and I couldn't stand them because they were so bulky and unresponsive. They also had cable issues and were completely unreliable. That said they were also really comfortable and easy to get in/out of in average conditions. I have stayed away because of the durability and weight issues with them but the last 2-3 seasons they have really improved. I'm either going K2 Auto or NXT for this season.


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## Cavman

snowbrdr said:


> So Cavman, you ride both CTX and Fastecs - which do you like better? I am an all mountain kinda rider and mostly stay out of the parks. I am leaning towards the CTXs mostly because they have been around longer and a lot more info about them. I would think that the mechanism would ultimately create problems and loosen up or have other malfunctions as opposed to the Fastecs but I haven't heard much of any on the user forums - and since they are way more available at local stores, probably easier to get parts. They also look a little easier to get into if the snow is deeper and not groomed.


K2 high back folds down to about 45 degrees and feel like you are sliding your foot into a shoe, in and down. The Fastecs fold all the way flat like the Flows, so more like sliding your foot into a slipper.

The advantage of the K2/Fastec over the Flows is two fold. The Flow has the big one piece strap, yes it does provide full boot pressure I agree, the downside is that snow and ice can build up in there if you are not careful. 

Secondly Flows do not exstend or release the ankle strap when the highback goes back, so you have to force your foot firmly in and the strap is already gripping your foot bridge even before you raise the highback. This is where I had my issues with Flow and snow/ice build up. 

When I saw the K2 canterlever system that raised the ankle strap at the same time as you lowered the highback it simply meant putting you foot in, there was no grip or resistance against your boot on the straps. Once the highback was raised then the ankle strap bit down and secured me in. Big difference for me.

Fastec offered the same comcept, that being no pressure/resistance to putting the boot in at all. The fastec also has the small buckle to make adjustments on the ankle strap as required.

To get out of the Fastecs in deep snow simple undo the ankle strap and then the buckle. The K2s you can undo both straps as they are exactly the same as a normal two strap binding.

As for the mechinism wearing out? I have not heard of anyone saying they used one and it "wore out" or "its all loosens up" 

For all mountain riding I prefer the K2 CTX, but having said that, my Fastect models I have are for my other boards which are smaller and more for small kickers and butters etc. I was thinking of putting my Troopas on my Ride Highlife 168cm Wide after I get back from Japan and see how it goes on my local mountain.

At the end of the day, these bindings suit me and my riding style. It is all about preference.


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## Wiredsport

Cavman said:


> K2 high back folds down to about 45 degrees and feel like you are sliding your foot into a shoe, in and down. The Fastecs fold all the way flat like the Flows, so more like sliding your foot into a slipper.
> 
> The advantage of the K2/Fastec over the Flows is two fold. The Flow has the big one piece strap, yes it does provide full boot pressure I agree, the downside is that snow and ice can build up in there if you are not careful.
> 
> Secondly Flows do not exstend or release the ankle strap when the highback goes back, so you have to force your foot firmly in and the strap is already gripping your foot bridge even before you raise the highback. This is where I had my issues with Flow and snow/ice build up.
> 
> When I saw the K2 canterlever system that raised the ankle strap at the same time as you lowered the highback it simply meant putting you foot in, there was no grip or resistance against your boot on the straps. Once the highback was raised then the ankle strap bit down and secured me in. Big difference for me.
> 
> Fastec offered the same comcept, that being no pressure/resistance to putting the boot in at all. The fastec also has the small buckle to make adjustments on the ankle strap as required.
> 
> To get out of the Fastecs in deep snow simple undo the ankle strap and then the buckle. The K2s you can undo both straps as they are exactly the same as a normal two strap binding.
> 
> As for the mechinism wearing out? I have not heard of anyone saying they used one and it "wore out" or "its all loosens up"
> 
> For all mountain riding I prefer the K2 CTX, but having said that, my Fastect models I have are for my other boards which are smaller and more for small kickers and butters etc. I was thinking of putting my Troopas on my Ride Highlife 168cm Wide after I get back from Japan and see how it goes on my local mountain.
> 
> At the end of the day, these bindings suit me and my riding style. It is all about preference.


Hi Cavman, 

A few things. It is hard to compare "Flow bindings" as a group to any other make or model because there are 18 very different model in the current line. Unlike the companies that are very new to producing rear entry bindings, Flow has been at it for a decade and a half. 

The "big one piece strap" you mentioned seems as though you are comparing to older models. Many of the current Flow models have less strap surface area than similar conventional bindings.










The extending ankle strap that you are considering a positive on the extendable models from the non-Flow manufacturers is actually a negative that had to be worked with to avoid Flow's existing technology. One of the strongest features of the Flow system is the incredibly snug fit that is achieved when the highback is raised against the static strap system. This is lost when the straps must extend. 

Getting this set up takes some understanding of the system and as riders above have attested, it becomes so easy that no stops are needed. If you are applying force to enter a current Flow model, there is either a usage issue or a sizing issue. 

We can troubleshoot either.


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## Cavman

Wiredsport

I will agree that the model I used was the older one. I was not saying that Flow was not good. I was simply stating that with a flow your foot is pressed against the strap as you go in, It has to. You can say that it is all loose and free when you slide you boot in, but when you raise the highback suddenly the pressure across the top of the boot is totally firm and secure.

I found that there were times I had to stab my foot into the binding and other times I had to wriggle it to get it out.

I like my bindings firm on my boots and that is why I liked the other models over the flow, the fact that I could put my boot in similar to how a person boots their boot into a standard two strap binding. No pressure, no friction. Then raise the higback, fold the strap and click it is super tight across the ankle.

I don't see how having an ankle strap that loosens or widens to put your boot in and then locks down to secure your boot is a negative.

I know Flow have been around a long time and their models have changed. Lots of people like Flows, lots don't. If there were no Fastecs or K2 CTXs for me to use I would be using a Flow binding, have no doubt.


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## snowbrdr

Wiredsport said:


> Hi Cavman,
> 
> A few things. It is hard to compare "Flow bindings" as a group to any other make or model because there are 18 very different model in the current line. Unlike the companies that are very new to producing rear entry bindings, Flow has been at it for a decade and a half.
> 
> The "big one piece strap" you mentioned seems as though you are comparing to older models. Many of the current Flow models have less strap surface area than similar conventional bindings.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The extending ankle strap that you are considering a positive on the extendable models from the non-Flow manufacturers is actually a negative that had to be worked with to avoid Flow's existing technology. One of the strongest features of the Flow system is the incredibly snug fit that is achieved when the highback is raised against the static strap system. This is lost when the straps must extend.
> 
> Getting this set up takes some understanding of the system and as riders above have attested, it becomes so easy that no stops are needed. If you are applying force to enter a current Flow model, there is either a usage issue or a sizing issue.
> 
> We can troubleshoot either.


Thanks again for the great input and feedback! It seems there are strong points for both Flows NXTs and the K2s. I am guessing that I might be happy in either. I am not sure I understand Wiredsport's point about losing snug fit as a result of having a system that tightens down the ankle when the back is raised - I am assuming that raising the highback of the Flow pushes the foot slightly forward and snugs the boot up against the ankle strap. This requires the boot to move forward. Cavman's point was that the boot does not have to move - the strap tightens down against the boot without the boot moving. These maybe somewhat subtle points when you're sliding off the lift, balancing, sliding your boot in, raising the highback, keeping some semblance of a board edge on your way to dropping off the mountain. I think I'm going to try a pair of Flows first in a local shop and see what they feel like. After all, if the ride, control and responsiveness are not there, then the easy entry is a moot point for me. Since I have never strapped into some Flows i guess I owe it to myself to give them a shot. The one positive I have heard about them is that those that like them, really love them and I hear a lot about them being more comfortable in general. If they are not quite as easy to get in and out of, it would be worth the trade-off for me for improved control and comfort.


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## Wiredsport

snowbrdr said:


> Thanks again for the great input and feedback! It seems there are strong points for both Flows NXTs and the K2s. I am guessing that I might be happy in either. I am not sure I understand Wiredsport's point about losing snug fit as a result of having a system that tightens down the ankle when the back is raised - I am assuming that raising the highback of the Flow pushes the foot slightly forward and snugs the boot up against the ankle strap. This requires the boot to move forward. Cavman's point was that the boot does not have to move - the strap tightens down against the boot without the boot moving. These maybe somewhat subtle points when you're sliding off the lift, balancing, sliding your boot in, raising the highback, keeping some semblance of a board edge on your way to dropping off the mountain. I think I'm going to try a pair of Flows first in a local shop and see what they feel like. After all, if the ride, control and responsiveness are not there, then the easy entry is a moot point for me. Since I have never strapped into some Flows i guess I owe it to myself to give them a shot. The one positive I have heard about them is that those that like them, really love them and I hear a lot about them being more comfortable in general. If they are not quite as easy to get in and out of, it would be worth the trade-off for me for improved control and comfort.


The beauty of Flow rear entry is that your foot ends up snugged correctly into the right place every time. The entry is a bit different than some users intially might think. These are the steps for first setup at home:

Set each of the 4 adjustment points to the very last tooth on the adjustment straps (largest position). Insert your foot (must be tightly laced in the boot-do not set up with a loosely laced boot). Position your foot so that the highback can clear the heel (but just clear it-as far back as possible). Use the ratchets, tightening the strap down to your boot. The binding is now ready to ride. When you go to kick in again, your boot will not get all the way in. It will be resting on the highback. That is correct. From this position, pull up on the high back, and stand down on your heel. The boot will "shoehorn" into place. As your boot will always be moist from snow when riding, this is very easy when riding, a bit harder when dry.


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## Cavman

Wiredsport,

That was my problem, shoe horning in. Not all snow is moist. Japanese Snow is very dry and I had times where my boot would NOT slide forward that extra bit to get the highback up. I rode 8 hours a day with those Flows in Japan for two weeks. It was those bindings that convinced me to look at Rear entry bindings.

For me I like that fact that there is no shoe horning with the Fastecs or the K2's.

At the end of the day, we all can't ride with K2s or with Flows or Fastec. Everyone's likes are different and I am glad there is a selection out there amongst the different providers.


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## Wiredsport

Cavman said:


> Wiredsport,
> 
> That was my problem, shoe horning in. Not all snow is moist. Japanese Snow is very dry and I had times where my boot would NOT slide forward that extra bit to get the highback up. I rode 8 hours a day with those Flows in Japan for two weeks. It was those bindings that convinced me to look at Rear entry bindings.
> 
> For me I like that fact that there is no shoe horning with the Fastecs or the K2's.
> 
> At the end of the day, we all can't ride with K2s or with Flows or Fastec. Everyone's likes are different and I am glad there is a selection out there amongst the different providers.


Agreed on the benefits of selection. That said, with correct sizing and setup, you will be able to enter the current breed of Flow bindings easier and more consistantly than K2, Fastec or straps.

Happy riding.


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## Cavman

Hahaha Lets agree to disagree


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## Enormo

Good discussion. Helped me think through some of the things I'm looking for in a binding.

And the winner is... ME!


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## snowbrdr

Cavman said:


> Hahaha Lets agree to disagree


Ok, here's the tie-breaker on this discussion for me.. I had ordered a pair of NXT ATs from a local shop and went there yesterday to put them on my board and demo in the store.. The Flow baseplate would NOT bolt to my Gnu Carbon Credit! We tried it rotated each direction and on top of all the board holes. The guy in the store was really puzzled and brought up someone else that runs the department... we were all amazed that the holes in the plate were just slightly off.. they called Flow and Flow had never heard of this problem. My Ride SPIs use a slotted baseplate so the slight offset doesn't matter with Rides or K2s. I love my Carbon Credit (2010 model) and would not give up that board for any bindings so it's a deal breaker with the Flows.. the question for me right now is whether this was some defect in my board I never noticed because of the binding plates that I chose or that there is more of an issue with the new Flow base plates mating with newer model Gnu boards. This should all be standard stuff so I am puzzled and for my own curiosity, I am contacting Mervin.. I was a bit bugged because the NXT ATs did look nice and I was interested in seeing how they felt on. So... I ordered some CTXs.. I am not a Pro and I am pretty convinced after all the discussion that I probably would be happy with either... maybe this is just a sign for me..


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## Wiredsport

snowbrdr said:


> Ok, here's the tie-breaker on this discussion for me.. I had ordered a pair of NXT ATs from a local shop and went there yesterday to put them on my board and demo in the store.. The Flow baseplate would NOT bolt to my Gnu Carbon Credit! We tried it rotated each direction and on top of all the board holes. The guy in the store was really puzzled and brought up someone else that runs the department... we were all amazed that the holes in the plate were just slightly off.. they called Flow and Flow had never heard of this problem. My Ride SPIs use a slotted baseplate so the slight offset doesn't matter with Rides or K2s. I love my Carbon Credit (2010 model) and would not give up that board for any bindings so it's a deal breaker with the Flows.. the question for me right now is whether this was some defect in my board I never noticed because of the binding plates that I chose or that there is more of an issue with the new Flow base plates mating with newer model Gnu boards. This should all be standard stuff so I am puzzled and for my own curiosity, I am contacting Mervin.. I was a bit bugged because the NXT ATs did look nice and I was interested in seeing how they felt on. So... I ordered some CTXs.. I am not a Pro and I am pretty convinced after all the discussion that I probably would be happy with either... maybe this is just a sign for me..


Please post some photos. The Flow disks are made to VERY tight tolerances so that they will not move slip rotate once mounted. The downside of this is that the board's inserts need to be in perfect square.


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## snowbrdr

Wiredsport said:


> Please post some photos. The Flow disks are made to VERY tight tolerances so that they will not move slip rotate once mounted. The downside of this is that the board's inserts need to be in perfect square.


I ordered CTXs from the same dealer as they give 10% all their bindings so when I go in, I will take my board and get some pics. This was not a matter of tolerance, one or the other flat did not line up and we could have easily stripped the holes if trying to force the screws in. You could get two to line up and bolt in but the the other two would simply not go, except at an angle and would cross thread. I emailed Mervin's warranty department as well to see what they say. It will be interesting if both manufacturers plead denial. Cavman, curious what kind of base plates come with the Gnu bindings - holes or slots? The guy at the board shop was measuring the holes in the board and stated that they were slightly further apart than standard.


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## Argo

I only use flow bindings with different boards that I have.... never had the issue. I have smokin boards, never summer, LTD, Burton, Rosignol to name a few. They even work on the new burton triangle design...... I have 3 different pairs of flows.....


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## Wiredsport

snowbrdr said:


> I ordered CTXs from the same dealer as they give 10% all their bindings so when I go in, I will take my board and get some pics. This was not a matter of tolerance, one or the other flat did not line up and we could have easily stripped the holes if trying to force the screws in. You could get two to line up and bolt in but the the other two would simply not go, except at an angle and would cross thread. I emailed Mervin's warranty department as well to see what they say. It will be interesting if both manufacturers plead denial. Cavman, curious what kind of base plates come with the Gnu bindings - holes or slots? The guy at the board shop was measuring the holes in the board and stated that they were slightly further apart than standard.


Hi snowbrdr,

Flow's aluminum metal disks are produces to a tolerance level that will not allow the boards inserts to be at all out of square. If the inserts are out of square, the screws would not fit in all of the holes. It is easy to check for yourself to see where the fault lies without relying on the shop or either manufacturer. Put a screw in each of the four inserts that you are using and take 6 measurements. Measure around the outside of the square from the center of each screwhead to the center of the next screwhead. Then measure both diagonals. The diagonals should match exactly as should the four outside measurements. It is very rare that metal disks are the problem. It is almost always the deck.


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## Donutz

snowbrdr said:


> Ok, here's the tie-breaker on this discussion for me.


There was definitely an individual problem there. I have Fives and NXT-ATs and I've moved both bindings onto several different brands of boards with no problems. Either the plate or your board must have been manufactured a little off. I can't imagine a whole bunch of people all failing to see something obvious, like rotating the plate or something stupid. Did they try those bindings on another board or try another set of the same bindings on your board?


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## swilber08

snowbrdr said:


> Ok, here's the tie-breaker on this discussion for me.. I had ordered a pair of NXT ATs from a local shop and went there yesterday to put them on my board and demo in the store.. The Flow baseplate would NOT bolt to my Gnu Carbon Credit! We tried it rotated each direction and on top of all the board holes. The guy in the store was really puzzled and brought up someone else that runs the department... we were all amazed that the holes in the plate were just slightly off.. they called Flow and Flow had never heard of this problem. My Ride SPIs use a slotted baseplate so the slight offset doesn't matter with Rides or K2s. I love my Carbon Credit (2010 model) and would not give up that board for any bindings so it's a deal breaker with the Flows.. the question for me right now is whether this was some defect in my board I never noticed because of the binding plates that I chose or that there is more of an issue with the new Flow base plates mating with newer model Gnu boards. This should all be standard stuff so I am puzzled and for my own curiosity, I am contacting Mervin.. I was a bit bugged because the NXT ATs did look nice and I was interested in seeing how they felt on. So... I ordered some CTXs.. I am not a Pro and I am pretty convinced after all the discussion that I probably would be happy with either... maybe this is just a sign for me..


funny you bring this up because I actually have the same exact board for one of my boards...the 2010 Gnu Carbon Credit 

...and I think you def have a defect or something because mine mount perfectly without any kind of struggle/stretch, I have switched them back and forth between my two boards several times :dunno:


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## Wiredsport

Donutz said:


> There was definitely an individual problem there. I have Fives and NXT-ATs and I've moved both bindings onto several different brands of boards with no problems. Either the plate or your board must have been manufactured a little off. I can't imagine a whole bunch of people all failing to see something obvious, like rotating the plate or something stupid. Did they try those bindings on another board or try another set of the same bindings on your board?


I can all but guarantee it is the board. Flow's metal disks are not hand drilled and as noted the tolearances are excellent. Mervin inserts are hand assembled and while the quality is usually excellent, this does leave room for error.


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## snowbrdr

swilber08 said:


> funny you bring this up because I actually have the same exact board for one of my boards...the 2010 Gnu Carbon Credit
> 
> ...and I think you def have a defect or something because mine mount perfectly without any kind of struggle/stretch, I have switched them back and forth between my two boards several times :dunno:


Interesting.. I tend to agree with you. I will likely take my board back to where I bought it in NJ next week and have them look (mervin's warranty policy is to deal with an authorized dealer). It has been very close to one year since I bought it and maybe I can get a replacement on warranty.. I would like to have the option that I am entitled to with being able to mount any of the popular bindings.

Thanks Wiredsport. I will take the measurements you suggest and let you know what I find.


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## Cavman

snowbrdr said:


> .................Cavman, curious what kind of base plates come with the Gnu bindings - holes or slots? The guy at the board shop was measuring the holes in the board and stated that they were slightly further apart than standard.


My Fastecs have metal plates with slots. Watch the mounting video here.
Fastec


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## snowbrdr

swilber08 said:


> funny you bring this up because I actually have the same exact board for one of my boards...the 2010 Gnu Carbon Credit
> 
> ...and I think you def have a defect or something because mine mount perfectly without any kind of struggle/stretch, I have switched them back and forth between my two boards several times :dunno:


It looks like I do have a defect. See the pic attached. The warranty rep for Mervin says they need to be exactly 4 cm every other hole. Mine are around 3.8 cm. This would explain the problem. I sent them this pic and the receipt -I am hoping they will be forgiving in the fact that I bought the board on 10/17/2009 so technically my warranty was up a little over a week ago. That would be messed up in my book given the kind of defect it is and what it took to find it.


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## Wiredsport

Those are way off. I would be very surprised if your retailer or Mervin (awesome company) did not get you a new board regardless of dates. No retailer or brand wants to have stucturally defective products in the field. Good brands and retailers don't view valid warranties as an brand vs consumer issue, but as "we are all boarders". This stuff happens. They will take care of you.


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## snowbrdr

Wiredsport said:


> Those are way off. I would be very surprised if your retailer or Mervin (awesome company) did not get you a new board regardless of dates. No retailer or brand wants to have stucturally defective products in the field. Good brands and retailers don't view valid warranties as an brand vs consumer issue, but as "we are all boarders". This stuff happens. They will take care of you.


Yea Mervin warranty guy sent me an RMA and also offered the alternative of a discount on some Gnu Mutants.. right now I have some ctxs coming in with an equal discount to Mervin's and if they really feel good, i may just stay with that and not return the board..the cost of shipping, new stomp pad, etc may not make it worth keeping my options of Flow bindings open with this board.. at least I have options and have to tip my hat to Mervin for their support.


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## mcorcora

I currently have Flow NXT-ATs on my Palmer Classic and love them. Prior to this I had a set of Flow M11s and experienced two failures, one a ripped out plastic mounting disk, and the other was a highback failure which caused the binding to release at speed. The cool thing was after the disk failure Flow replaced the disk. After the second failure and a conversation with a Flow rep at a demo day, Flow Customer Service actually sent me the NXT-ATs.


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## Darkness

Cavman, did you ever have tighten the straps after stepping in your K2 Cinch bindings? Or is it consistent concerning strapping in once to the good tight fit and after that only the step in method?

I had one shop recommend them, but another shop (which seemed highly biased towards burton) described the cinch as garbage.


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## Cavman

Maybe once or twice I tweaked the binding one click in a week of riding. Very consistent binding. Once I was set up I just undid the highback and everytime I slid back in and did up the highback it was at the same tension I was before I unlicked the highback.

That also applies to the SP Fastecs as well.... consistent tension each time between rides.


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## snowbrdr

Cavman said:


> Maybe once or twice I tweaked the binding one click in a week of riding. Very consistent binding. Once I was set up I just undid the highback and everytime I slid back in and did up the highback it was at the same tension I was before I unlicked the highback.
> 
> That also applies to the SP Fastecs as well.... consistent tension each time between rides.


Got my CTXs yesterday and mounted to my Carbon Credit... they feel nice. Light but not as light as my Ride SPIs. Nice lateral flex and really lock my boot in. My only fear is that some day I am going catch a finger or some skin snapping the back up. It really snaps in tight. I have K2 8.5 boot and the guy at the store got me mediums which are supposed to fit 5-8 but it seems to fit just fine after adjusting the footbed.

Can't wait for snow!


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## Cavman

If you release the toe cap strap a click or two you will find the highback doesn't require as much pressure to close. See how easy it is to close when there is no boot in it! Make sure when you are setting up the bindings that the highback is up and locked and then put you boot in as per a normal pair of two strap bindings. Adjust the straps but don't go overboard hehe. Drop the highback and slide out. You are set.

You do get used to the highback mechanism and soon won't even notice how you close it. I use the palm rather than two fingers as I have some dialed in some forward lean and that increases the highbacks tension a fraction.

Good luck... you will love them.


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## lisevolution

Ok, I have to say I just got back from the local ski mart and had a chance to look at both the NXT-AT's and this years 2011 CTX's and my decision has just been made much more complicated. The new Cinch's look super polished this year with the canted footbeds and the airlock highback. I was very impressed with the build quality and they are definitely way lighter than they used to be and actually felt a bit lighter than the Flows. The Flows as expected were solid as well. Didn't seem like too much changed from last year to me but that's not a bad thing. I don't know, I was so sold on being anti Cinch from my previous experiences with them and now after handling them at the store I'm seriously considering buying them and giving them a second chance...


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## Cavman

I am glad to hear that you are open minded. As I have always said, there are many different types of bindings because we are all different and have certain things in bindings/boards and boots that we believe are more important. If at the end of the day you get a set of bindings that you like and suit you then great...ride hard and have fun.

I do get annoyed at people who slam brands and products without actually really looking at them or trying them. Prejudice and narrow mindedness is hard to negotiate with. 

Good luck with your choice... you were lucky the Sp Fastec Brotherhood wasn't there to confuse you even more.


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## lisevolution

I'm sure the Fastec's would make the decision that much harder but I'm hesitant because I can't actually find them anywhere around in here in a store. I always want to actually touch what I buy when I can especially with something like bindings where boot fit makes such a difference. I definitely try to keep an open mind on things because I know things change. I was just really impressed with how far they've come from a couple of seasons ago with this binding tech. I'm actually leaning towards them as it really meets most of my criteria for a binding in general and it also has the ease of entry aspect. I'm still concerned with how responsive they'll be when I actually ride them as I'm a big guy at 6'3 265 so I'm hoping that even with my size they'll perform well. The only way to find out is to ride them so that's just what I'll have to do


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## snowbrdr

lisevolution said:


> I'm sure the Fastec's would make the decision that much harder but I'm hesitant because I can't actually find them anywhere around in here in a store. I always want to actually touch what I buy when I can especially with something like bindings where boot fit makes such a difference. I definitely try to keep an open mind on things because I know things change. I was just really impressed with how far they've come from a couple of seasons ago with this binding tech. I'm actually leaning towards them as it really meets most of my criteria for a binding in general and it also has the ease of entry aspect. I'm still concerned with how responsive they'll be when I actually ride them as I'm a big guy at 6'3 265 so I'm hoping that even with my size they'll perform well. The only way to find out is to ride them so that's just what I'll have to do


Well I have only had them on the carpet in my basement but they feel really good to me and I like a pretty tight fit. They hold my boot well and are so easy to get into. They are not as stiff as my Ride SPIs which I think will actually be a positive for me and my Carbon Credit which is kinda medium flex.. I never did try the Flows but I try to do a lot of research - the thing I like about the ctxs is that they really can tighten down and are still easy to get into - or as cavman said on a couple messages back on this thread, loosen a bit for really easy stap up. I also think I am going to like having the same fit on every run. I am all about having fun on th slopes as we all are and I think this is going to really add to the fun at the top of the slope not having to sit, thread the straps, ratchet down..

I am sure the fastecs are great too, but you have two mechanisms on it to lock down.. also when I showed the ctxs to a friend of mine he pointed out that the ratchets can sometimes break and that they might be even more reliable than regular bindings.. i was initially leary of the moving parts, now i am thinking it may be a better overall design. very innovative design.


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## Cavman

I am 6ft 5in 230lbs and the CTX are fine for me.


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## Darkness

I got myself the cinch CTC and had a brief test on the indoor track in Landgraaf (Holland). They are really nice, but still need some fine tuning. Sometimes I had some difficulties closing them just like snowbrdr above.
I will post some pics soon, since real life pics are not always easy to find besides al the standard official pictures.

The fact that they don't fold down entirely horizontal is very nice so you can still put your foot behind you snowboard (better for the front knee) without catching/stepping on the binding.


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## Leo

Darkness said:


> I got myself the cinch CTC and had a brief test on the indoor track in Landgraaf (Holland). They are really nice, but still need some fine tuning. Sometimes I had some difficulties closing them just like snowbrdr above.
> I will post some pics soon, since real life pics are not always easy to find besides al the standard official pictures.
> 
> The fact that they don't fold down entirely horizontal is very nice so you can still put your foot behind you snowboard (better for the front knee) without catching/stepping on the binding.


Hmm... I don't really share this problem with you. I just kick the highbacks up and out of the way with my foot after stepping out.

I skate on both sides, front and back depending on my mood. The only time I've had them get caught was while skating with my foot in front. This is because I don't kick it back up when I skate in front of the board. Oh, and it was getting caught on stuff like the railing at the lift line.


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## Nivek

Anything I didn't like about Flows in the past, they fixed. Get them.

Either M9's for an all around or park binding, or NXT-AT's for an all mountain freeride binding.


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## jmacphee9

Goin on year three with my NXTs..a few problems with extremely fast question free responses from flow...mine are also the the first year of the NXT line so problems could have been expected.

but overall riding in them is amazing. they are incredible bindings in my opinion. i got them for really cheap, and had been a flow "hater" but these bindings changed everything in my opinion..i love em.


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## lisevolution

I'm going to wait to get my new board in the mail and then take it and my boots to the shop and see which is the most comfortable. I've been very close to getting the NXT's a couple of times recently but each time passed on them. I'm very familiar with the Flow design having ridden a set of Amp 5's I beleive they were a few years back and they have definitely fixed the issues that plagued those models. From looking at the Cinch now versus the older models they've decreased the weight significantly, part of that is moving away from the heavier metal base to the newer plastic base. Also the new straps and highback are much more advanced then they have been in the past. Before it felt like the Cinch's were an afterthought in their line, now it feels like them and the Auto are the focus for them and it definitely shows. Either way I'm sure I'll be happy with the decision because they're both solid brands and solid bindings.


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## craigd

Cavman said:


> Maybe once or twice I tweaked the binding one click in a week of riding. Very consistent binding. Once I was set up I just undid the highback and everytime I slid back in and did up the highback it was at the same tension I was before I unlicked the highback.
> 
> That also applies to the SP Fastecs as well.... consistent tension each time between rides.


Hey cavman i am so glad i found this post,the k2 and the sp is exactley witch bindings i have not been able to decide ova!! i was thinking bout the sp because the back goes all the way down an lookes easyer to enter an they fealt lighter but are they as good? im an all mountin rider but occasionly silde throuhg the park??


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## Cavman

I am not a park rider. I was introduced to these bindings by the guys at Time2Ride in Jindabyne, NSW. The staff there all use the SP Fastecs, including the owner Shay Paxton, who swears by them.

Shay is a well known competition rider here. A pic form a few years ago.









Has rated in top ten Grandmasters in TTR world tour. 
Swatch TTR World Snowboard Tour: Stylewars

If it is good enough for him to use then it is well good enough for me. I cannot keep up with these guys, they are fast and I am not slow myself. The seem to spend half their time in the air... 

Thats the best answer I can give. I hope you like them.


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## snowbrdr

when I was researching which bindings to get, I thought the ctxs would be heavier but turned out they were only .2 oz heavier - according to a guy who weighed them both on a postage scale for me - basically no difference. The ctxs do have cantered footbeds and you can close with one motion instead of two (not really a big deal). I have no problem with them not going all the way down because the ankle strap comes up as well. It is very natural feeling getting in and out. I basically went with the ctxs over the sps because I not too many people carry them - no one in my area - so I could not see them for myself. Cavman was also a help in my decision since he has and uses both. I think I would have been happy with either but I think I made the right choice with the ctxs.


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## Darkness

As promised, some pics of the K2 Cinch CTC bindings.

Cheesy blog site, but it just serves to put pictures on the internet 

Meep Meep


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## Cavman

Darkness

Thats why I got the CTXs, they have traditional ratchets so adjustment is easy if needed.

As for getting into the step ins on steep slopes.... There are two ways, face up hill or face down hill. It is a matter of preference. 

I face up hill and simply stab the board into the snow with my front foot until I make a small flat ledge and then stand on the board without sliding and slide the back foot in. The downside of this is you have a tendency to lean on the ball of the foot and the heel os lifted a little so when I fold up the high back I sometmes need to lean heavily on the heelside as I take off for the boot to feel fully flat in the binding. It probably already is, but maybe it is just me.

I also do the same facing down hill and simple kick the heel of my front foot back into the snow to make a small ledge and then step into the binding. Obviously the better the snow the quicker and easier it is, icy hard packed snow can be a pain to get that small flat spot. 

If you get stuck digging in or lose your balance, I found dropping to my knees and sliding the boot in from the back perry easy.

In reality I think I have had issues maybe 3-4 times in hundreds of step ins.

I have heaps of video of getting into my bindings from my Contour. I will see what I have and psot a link when I can.


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## snowbrdr

Hey Cavman, the 2011 model ctxs don't have ratchets on the toe strap. Not sure why they did away with it this year..


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## Cavman

Hmm Interesting!!!


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## Darkness

snowbrdr said:


> Hey Cavman, the 2011 model ctxs don't have ratchets on the toe strap. Not sure why they did away with it this year..


Indeed, the ctx don't have the front ratchet any more, otherwise, I might have considered them.


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## paul07ss

hmmm K2 cinch ctx or flow NXT AT .. Are these K2's and Flows best model?? Trying to find a pair of rear entry ffor my NS legacy..


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## KIRKRIDER

Darkness said:


> Indeed, the ctx don't have the front ratchet any more, otherwise, I might have considered them.


They do..I just got them!


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## Cavman

Not like the 2010 model had though. The toe strap had a proper ratchet.


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## snowbrdr

That's not a ratchet on the toe strap.


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## Nivek

The highest end of the Flows would be the NXT-FRX or AT-SE. The regular AT's would be enough binding for the Legacy. If you feel like you just want more, then the NXT-FSE's would be good.


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## Cavman

snowbrdr said:


> That's not a ratchet on the toe strap.


Are you commenting on the black 2011 model or the white 2010 model?

I have the 2010 model and it is most definitely a ratchet on the toe cap. From what I can see of the 2011 model it looks like a simple adjustment buckle but not a ratchet.


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## snowbrdr

Cavman said:


> Are you commenting on the black 2011 model or the white 2010 model?
> 
> I have the 2010 model and it is most definitely a ratchet on the toe cap. From what I can see of the 2011 model it looks like a simple adjustment buckle but not a ratchet.


I am commenting on the 2011 model - they did away with the ratchet on the latest model, which is what I got for this season. Not sure why they did this, I cannot see any advantage except that it gives you one less adjustment option.


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## Cavman

I would thnk that once you have set up the binding there is no real need to adjust the toe cap strap anyway. The ability to undo the ankle strap/ adjust buckle is still a good idea if you get caught in deep snow and need to undow the ankle strap to get out. Not had that problem yet.

I suppose if you realy wanted the buckle option you could order the strap/buckle part as if for a replacement for a 2010 model and simply slip it in. They are easily removed and changed over.


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## S.Midd.92

I tested the Flows, Fastec by GNU and the K2 cinch and i didnt like any of them. i ended up with Ride EX's because the soft rubber toe strap was supportive and comfy and the price was much better


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## Cavman

As long as you found a set of bindings you liked. If there was one set of PERFECT bindings for everyone, we would all be using them.


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## lisevolution

So I ended up going with the CTX's...at the end of the day the traditional strap set-up won me over. I was so close to going with the NXT-AT's though in the White/Black/Green colorway because it would have matched the new legacy perfectly but since I'm not as much of an aesthetic whore at this point in my life I went with what I preferred comfort wise ;-) I'll give some feedback once I get them on my board and ride for a couple of days.


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## snowbrdr

Ok I would like to revive this thread if there is any interest. Since going through the CTX's, i had the mutants (until the ankle strap recall) then went to the Psychs, and now just got the Freedoms. The psychs were the most comfortable to me but I occasionally had problems with the toe cap moving up and then not able to get in quick without fiddling a while. They are pretty flexible but still responsive. Now the Freedoms have come out which are stiffer and have a ratchet adjustment on the toe cap so you can get in and out in the traditional sense. I liked this idea so I thought I'd give them a try. I've had them out once and found them much stiffer than the psychs and maybe more than the mutants (but really been too long since I've used them). But, i have a lot more trouble getting in and out of them. I think this is mainly because the toe cap by default goes over the toes ie a toe strap, and not as a cap. The cap was nice because you could jam your foot in and it would stop your foot at the right point. Likewise getting out, the toe cap would not bind and my foot would come out easily. So I took the toe cap off to look at the adjust-ability and there are basically two little holes to hold the adjustment i.e. not really any way to set this as a toe cap and ensure that it will stay there. I think that the freedoms now have more of a feel of flows meaning for it to be easy to get in and out of, they have to be pretty loose. The psychs felt a bit more locked in. I'm now pretty frustrated and what i think should be a pretty easily solved design flaw in being able to use the toe strap to be a toe strap or cap.. Am i missing something? Anybody else try the gnu freedoms?


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## larrytbull

above is why i ditched GNU and went to flow, never looked back. the GNU toe cap either fit or it did not. for me it did not
of all the Rear entry bindings flows are the best. can they improve, sure they can, but IMO FLOW>GNU
.


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## Argo

Flow is best if you get the NASTY nx2 version. If you get the lower end models you have the same issues as when this thread was started. I have used flows since 2008 though and even liked them then when K2 had a better overall product


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## supham

I have had all 3. I prefer my GNUs. Maybe because I don't have any toe tap issues.


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## snowbrdr

Argo said:


> Flow is best if you get the NASTY nx2 version. If you get the lower end models you have the same issues as when this thread was started. I have used flows since 2008 though and even liked them then when K2 had a better overall product


Uggghh.. Ok, going to try Flow Fuse Hybrid GTs with the NASTY tech. I like the toe cap and if it works better than the Freedoms then I should be a happy camper and the Freedoms go back. One thing that may make a difference for me is the fact that my Freedoms were on the upper end of size i.e. i have an 8.5 boot and a medium binding. I'm going to a large binding in the flow so maybe a tad roomier side to side and easier to slide on and off. What a money pit! 

Edit: I went for the fuse because of the medium stiffness i think will work better with my NS Proto HD


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## snowbrdr

supham said:


> I have had all 3. I prefer my GNUs. Maybe because I don't have any toe tap issues.


You have the freedoms? Do you use the toe strap as a cap or strap over top?


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## larrytbull

Go with large binding. And adjust the heel cup to your liking. Fuse is easier to adjust than the nx2 for heel cup. My only beef on fuse is on the footbed. It is not as easy to remove than one on nx2. Toe cap is slightly different as well, but still way better than gnu one. May take a few runs to tweak it but well worth time. 

Sent from my SM-N920P using Tapatalk


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## snowbrdr

larrytbull said:


> Go with large binding. And adjust the heel cup to your liking. Fuse is easier to adjust than the nx2 for heel cup. My only beef on fuse is on the footbed. It is not as easy to remove than one on nx2. Toe cap is slightly different as well, but still way better than gnu one. May take a few runs to tweak it but well worth time.


I would have gone with the nx2 but seemed too stiff by the spec for my riding style and ability. Also got the GT model. One other thing that i like about these is the canted footbed. I've missed that since i had ctx's.


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## larrytbull

These are way better than ctx. No arm burn every time you lock up back. Thats why i got rid of them. Liked them alot otherwise

Sent from my SM-N920P using Tapatalk


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## snowbrdr

larrytbull said:


> These are way better than ctx. No arm burn every time you lock up back. Thats why i got rid of them. Liked them alot otherwise


I agree. CTXs were so hard to snap up, which is why i got rid of them, and also the weight. Haven't missed the CTXs just canted footbed. For me with a short inseam, they were nice.


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## snowbrdr

So I decided I'm returning the GNU freedoms and bought a pair of Flow Fuse GT hybrids. I agree now with some of the other posts that I think the quality is better. They also weight almost a half pound more EACH than the Gnus. I spent about 10 min adjusting them in my boots in the livingroom and they are super easy to get in and out of and feel really good. My heel does not get caught on the back of the binding when locking up like the gnus and the toe cap stays exactly where it's supposed to be. So I'm optimistic these are going to work out. Going out to Winter Park in 7 days so i'm stoked!


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