# Board going flat one ice or very hard pack - base edge bevels?



## Rip154 (Sep 23, 2017)

Not sure. Are you just having trouble putting the board on edge in hard snow, it is harder..


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## Phedder (Sep 13, 2014)

Grunky said:


> But I noticed on very hard pack or ice,* the boards goes directly flat*. I don't feel anything like that on any of my other boards.


Can you explain that more? No idea what you mean.


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## WigMar (Mar 17, 2019)

Yeah, are you loosing tire pressure?


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## Donutz (May 12, 2010)

Do you feel like you're losing the contact points? No edge control?


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## Grunky (Mar 21, 2019)

Ok I'll try to be more clear but english is not my 1st language so I miss some vocab.

So usually, when riding, the board is tilted on edge. When going on an icy patch, with my other boards, either it grips, or it slips. 
But with the HK Pro, it's like the board fights to go flat base. On ice abd very hard pack it's like it's really difficult to tilt it on edge. I still feel the board gripping, but it really feels like it's lowering the tilt angle and I'm going to catch an edge. 

A friend oof mine tried the board too and had the same feeling. But I don't know why this only on this board and not the other. The only "tech" difference I see is base edge bevel so I was asking if it could be linked.


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## Donutz (May 12, 2010)

I'd go with the edge bevel. By definition, a larger angle would make the board require a larger tilt in order to grip on ice or hard hardpack.


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## Mike256 (Oct 13, 2013)

It's a stiff camber board. When youre on softer snow, the edge you're on digs in a little making a ledge for your board to ride on. On hard ice it can't make the ledge so it will just sit flat. On a softer board the flex will probably let you mimic the ledge a little bit by being able to keep other contact points slightly off the hard pack. With a stiff board it would take a lot more pressure to do this so the board will just want to lay flat. Or I could be completely wrong.


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## Grunky (Mar 21, 2019)

@Mike256 I like your explanation, meaning it seems to make sense. But I have stiffer boards that don't behave the same. Well they are stiffer in the length but not on torsional flex.


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## Mike256 (Oct 13, 2013)

Grunky said:


> @Mike256 I like your explanation, meaning it seems to make sense. But I have stiffer boards that don't behave the same. Well they are stiffer in the length but not on torsional flex.


The softer torsional flex of your other boards would explain why you'd be able to keep a contact point elevated on hard ice more easily with them compared to you hk pro.


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## MrDavey2Shoes (Mar 5, 2018)

Grunky said:


> @Mike256 I like your explanation, meaning it seems to make sense. But I have stiffer boards that don't behave the same. Well they are stiffer in the length but not on torsional flex.


What are the camber profiles of the other boards? Do you feel as though this sensation is occurring out at the contact points? If so that may mean you’re trying to turn tighter than the radius is able to bend with the decreased pressure you can apply on ice. 

If that sounded like jibberish let me know, I typed it stream of thought.


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## BoardieK (Dec 21, 2015)

Maybe it's just a bit stiff and wide for you. I had a similar issue with a camber board which was solved by going for a board 3mm narrower and a bit softer which I love, especially on icy snow.


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## Grunky (Mar 21, 2019)

MrDavey2Shoes said:


> What are the camber profiles of the other boards? Do you feel as though this sensation is occurring out at the contact points? If so that may mean you’re trying to turn tighter than the radius is able to bend with the decreased pressure you can apply on ice.
> 
> If that sounded like jibberish let me know, I typed it stream of thought.


Most of my boards are camber, or hybrids mainly cambered, like with a little rocker in tip and tail. 
The sensation is like all the board, but maybe a little bit more between the bindings. 



BoardieK said:


> Maybe it's just a bit stiff and wide for you. I had a similar issue with a camber board which was solved by going for a board 3mm narrower and a bit softer which I love, especially on icy snow.


I have wider boards, almost as stiff which don't react the same way on ice.


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## PwhyTwhy (Jan 20, 2020)

This definately sounds like a 3 degree base bevel problem to me. Not sure why you would have it on any board. Are you sure this is correct? Is it both toe and heel edges? If its your heel edge i would guess its not enough forward lean.


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## Grunky (Mar 21, 2019)

PwhyTwhy said:


> This definately sounds like a 3 degree base bevel problem to me. Not sure why you would have it on any board. Are you sure this is correct? Is it both toe and heel edges? If its your heel edge i would guess its not enough forward lean.


Here is what they say on Salomon site: 
Freestyle EB
From detuning the tip and tail to a 2-degree edge holding tune throughout the key parts of the sidecut, back to a 3-degree bevel between the feet. This delivers the complete blend of edge hold and forgiveness on rails.


It's on both heel and toe edge.


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## PwhyTwhy (Jan 20, 2020)

Hmmm. Their description leaves a lot for interpretation. It could be the base edge bevel they are specifically referring to, or the side edge bevel, but most likely its the combination of both side and base edge bevels. Who knows? It sounds like it needs a tune up no matter what bevels they put on the edges. 

If I was going to guess I would think it has a base edge bevel of 1 degree throughout the entire board with a 1 degree side edge bevel on the tip and tail and a 2 degree between the feet. And then someone added the numbers together for the combined edge bevels. Which if you combined them properly would be a 0 degree edge bevel tip/tail and a 1 degree between the feet. 
This edge setup would not have the best edge hold especially if it has not been tuned ever. Its already a borderline dull edge setup for ice and hard piste out of the gate and if its been hitting the park rails it would be even worse. 

But if it is actually referring to just the base bevels then it will definately be a hard snow turd for the rest of its life until it gets a base grind and propee base bevels.


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## Grunky (Mar 21, 2019)

I checked with my file guides, it really is 2 degrees base edge bevel outside the inserts, and 3 degrees base between them.


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## PwhyTwhy (Jan 20, 2020)

There you have it. A forgiving jibbing and spinning board that will never hold an edge in hard snow


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## Yeahti87 (Jan 17, 2019)

It’s this freestyle edge bevel.
I had the Assassin 2018 with the same edge tuning in the past and found it lacking on ice (even when resharpened that way).

Since then I’ve owned 15 plus different boards (and ridden over 30) with a more standard tune and the difference is noticeable.

Last month scooped a super cheap Assassin Pro 2021. Unfortunately I managed to ride it only for 2 hours so far (the muppets locked us down again, I hope only 2 more weeks of wasting the season) but I managed to try it on an icy run at night and it holds way better than its bro that did’t go Pro (even though it’s pretty dull out of the wrapper and I need to resharpen it).

It’s not the flex, my Archetype isn’t a stiff board with its 90/0 sharp edge tune and it holds great on ice (especially for the pretty average effective edge). Same with the Pioneer and Alopha my buds own. My Amplids are also 90/0. SG Soul (a pretty playful bx board) also comes with the factory 90/0 and grips like crazy on ice.

The base bevel makes the board glide faster (less friction), more forgiving at freestyle but you don’t have that immediate grip and you feel a lag in grip when you’re at boilerplate ice.


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## Grunky (Mar 21, 2019)

The "issue" (well it's not really an issue, I just try to understand why this board behaves differently than my others) is not "holding" or "gripping" but more about the tilt angle. 
Did you feel the board fighting to reduce the tilt angle on ice? It's gripping, but I really have to force to keep the same tilt when I arrive on an ice patch, but it's not like slipping...


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## Yeahti87 (Jan 17, 2019)

Grunky said:


> The "issue" (well it's not really an issue, I just try to understand why this board behaves differently than my others) is not "holding" or "gripping" but more about the tilt angle.
> Did you feel the board fighting to reduce the tilt angle on ice? It's gripping, but I really have to force to keep the same tilt when I arrive on an ice patch, but it's not like slipping...


It is not reducing the edge angle. You feel that way because it won’t grip yet so it’s like sliding before the edge bites in. We’re taking real ice/snowcrete scrapped to ice.

I rode the Assassin Pro being focused on the way it engages on ice and I could feel the moment when the tips were engaged (1 base bevel) and the mid section did not engage yet/was already sliding (2 degree bevel). That was not the decambering feel I know.

When they reopen I will ride it sharpened. If I still find the mid section lacking, I’ll wipe the whole edge the way the tips are tuned. I don’t jib on rails and I don’t need that mid part being forgiving. Apart from that, the board feels really great and I can forsee it staying longer in my quiver.


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## Grunky (Mar 21, 2019)

@Yeahti87
Yes I understand what you mean and it makes sense. Yes too I'm talking about real ice or snowcrete. When it's not like this the board is really fun.

You say your base edge between the feet is -2, and you may takle it back to -1. Don't you need to grind the base to do that?


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## Yeahti87 (Jan 17, 2019)

Grunky said:


> @Yeahti87
> Yes I understand what you mean and it makes sense. Yes too I'm talking about real ice or snowcrete. When it's not like this the board is really fun.
> 
> You say your base edge between the feet is -2, and you may takle it back to -1. Don't you need to gring the base to do that?


Yes, it would be necessary. I’ll first give it a try after sharpening (another new board being pretty dull, I don’t get that). Maybe it helps. I just need a bit better grip on ice, I have some ice specialists in that realm anyway. 
If I decide to keep the Pro, I’ll do that (I don’t want to resell a modified board to someone).


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