# Burton AK2L Down vs Primaloft?



## SGboarder (Jun 24, 2012)

Down one should be warmer - as long as the down stays dry, if down gets wet that dramatically reduces the insulating properties.


----------



## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

SGboarder said:


> Down one should be warmer - as long as the down stays dry, if down gets wet that dramatically reduces the insulating properties.


Hey SG do you know how breathable is the Thermacore insulation? I have a B bomber jacket with it but have never worn it as a mid layer cause i'm afraid if it's not breathable enough it'll suck....


----------



## SGboarder (Jun 24, 2012)

F1EA said:


> Hey SG do you know how breathable is the Thermacore insulation? I have a B bomber jacket with it but have never worn it as a mid layer cause i'm afraid if it's not breathable enough it'll suck....


Sorry man, no idea. At some point I used to keep track of the different 'proprietary' kinds of synthetic insulation, but most are getting pretty similar these days.
Point about breathability is that the construction/fabric matters as much as the actual insulation. Check out dedicated mid-layers such as the Arc Atom LT or the Patagonia Nano Air - same insulation as other pieces, but almost as breathable as a fleece because of the construction.


----------



## Blaze182 (Sep 7, 2009)

Cheers SG! Have never worn anything from the AK line - are you aware if sizing is the same as any other brand like TNF?

EDIT:
Also, how would one layer this Insulator on very cold days? Would base-layer/skin (i.e. under-armour or skyn) + fleece + Insulator Jacket + shell be OK? 

The season just ended I had a real big issue with freezing winds, had gore-tex shell with Nike Under Armour and a fleece underneath but it was nowhere near enough, had to head to the resort after a couple hours to swap to an insulated jacket atop everything. 

Trying to get 3 separate upper-body setups going for next year, have 2 big trips planned, but don't want the above happening again, it really ruined the morning/midday, not just for me... the people I was teaching too =[


----------



## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

Blaze182 said:


> Cheers SG! Have never worn anything from the AK line - are you aware if sizing is the same as any other brand like TNF?
> 
> EDIT:
> Also, how would one layer this Insulator on very cold days? Would base-layer/skin (i.e. under-armour or skyn) + fleece + Insulator Jacket + shell be OK?
> ...


Yeah I think layering is better than a really thick insulated Goretex. 

There's a bunch of dedicated mid-layers like SG said. I was trying to avoid that, but I guess that's the best way to go when you already have a Goretex shell.


----------



## SGboarder (Jun 24, 2012)

Blaze182 said:


> Cheers SG! Have never worn anything from the AK line - are you aware if sizing is the same as any other brand like TNF?


You have to be a little careful with AK sizing and do your research. The sizing/fit varied considerably between seasons and even across the range within any given season.


----------



## Blaze182 (Sep 7, 2009)

F1EA said:


> Yeah I think layering is better than a really thick insulated Goretex.
> 
> There's a bunch of dedicated mid-layers like SG said. I was trying to avoid that, but I guess that's the best way to go when you already have a Goretex shell.


A lot of people say layering is better, which I can see the reasoning behind, but I prefer insulated jackets (atop lighter layering). When I'm too hot, just open the jacket, never have a 'too cold' moment; but with layering, venting can be a little more hassle depending what you have underneath (I also feel a little 'messy' when I layer). All personal preference, I still have a very good shell, and intend to use it, it looks awesome in my opinion > Was thinking of wearing my Moncler jacket underneath it, just a bit concerned, as you are, regarding breathability - so I'm looking at other options, perhaps keep the Moncler as resort/non-boarding only, I think its a little too nice to wear while boarding. 

This is what I plan on taking for the next two trips:
2 x Gore-tex shell pants
1 x 15/15K Primaloft Jacket
1 x Gore-tex Shell Jacket
Looking for 1 x Gore-tex insulated Jacket




SGboarder said:


> You have to be a little careful with AK sizing and do your research. The sizing/fit varied considerably between seasons and even across the range within any given season.



Interesting, I'll measure myself up, better to be safe than sorry


----------



## SGboarder (Jun 24, 2012)

Blaze182 said:


> Also, how would one layer this Insulator on very cold days? Would base-layer/skin (i.e. under-armour or skyn) + fleece + Insulator Jacket + shell be OK?
> 
> The season just ended I had a real big issue with freezing winds, had gore-tex shell with Nike Under Armour and a fleece underneath but it was nowhere near enough, had to head to the resort after a couple hours to swap to an insulated jacket atop everything.
> 
> Trying to get 3 separate upper-body setups going for next year, have 2 big trips planned, but don't want the above happening again, it really ruined the morning/midday, not just for me... the people I was teaching too =[





F1EA said:


> Yeah I think layering is better than a really thick insulated Goretex.
> 
> There's a bunch of dedicated mid-layers like SG said. I was trying to avoid that, but I guess that's the best way to go when you already have a Goretex shell.


Actually, I have changed my approach on this somewhat. I am still a big advocate for the shell+layers for backcountry touring and riding in very variable conditions and shoulder seasons (as well as for non-snowboard activities likes mountaineering/hiking etc). 
But I think an insulated outer jacket makes sense for resort riding esp in cold temperatures. Take Northern Japan (hokkaidou) for example: In Jan/Feb it is generally quite cold (teens or single digits), windy and overcast (no sun/bluebird).
In conditions like that I would be in thermal U/W and 2 mid-layers (say, fleece+puffy) under a shell all day for resort riding/lift-accessed terrain.
An insulated jacket plus one mid-layer is much more convenient for this use-case.


----------



## neni (Dec 24, 2012)

SGboarder said:


> I am still a big advocate for the shell+layers for backcountry touring and riding in very variable conditions and shoulder seasons (as well as for non-snowboard activities likes mountaineering/hiking etc).


Any hint for a good warm jacket for hiking? I've Arc Atom (for ascent), Cerium (for breaks) Gamma softshell (for windy/rainy ascents) and Scimitar shell (for descent) jackets which cover almost every condition, but for ascents in _very_ cold n windy overcast conditions, I didn't find the right combination yet. Atom is too chilly, the downs of the Cerium at the back getting soaked too quickly. 

Do you know of a any warmer primaloft based ascent jackets that Atom? Maybe with less filling at the back (heat accumulation from the backpack) or sort of a little windstopper on the front? Arc seems to only have down based warmer stuff which probably isn't what I'm looking for. They soak and are PITA to wash/dry... (doesn't neet to be Arc, but equally well designed with zipps n bags at the right places)


----------



## AmberLamps (Feb 8, 2015)

Can not fathom paying that much for a jacket. Should be able to find something just as good in the $200 range. Im sorry but $600+ for a jacket is absurd.


----------



## SGboarder (Jun 24, 2012)

neni said:


> Any hint for a good warm jacket for hiking? I've Arc Atom (for ascent), Cerium (for breaks) Gamma softshell (for windy/rainy ascents) and Scimitar shell (for descent) jackets which cover almost every condition, but for ascents in _very_ cold n windy overcast conditions, I didn't find the right combination yet. Atom is too chilly, the downs of the Cerium at the back getting soaked too quickly.
> 
> Do you know of a any warmer primaloft based ascent jackets that Atom? Maybe with less filling at the back (heat accumulation from the backpack) or sort of a little windstopper on the front? Arc seems to only have down based warmer stuff which probably isn't what I'm looking for. They soak and are PITA to wash/dry... (doesn't neet to be Arc, but equally well designed with zipps n bags at the right places)


I run a very similar wardrobe - Atom LT as ascent piece, Procline Comp for weather protection on the way up/shell on the way down (esp. in warm temperatures), Sidewinder as 'serious' hardshell. 

But recently I'm in love with the Arc Stikine (here - sadly there does not appear to be an equivalent for women in the product range): On days when it gets too nasty/cold for the Atom on the way up, I wear the Stikine for the ascent and the Atom+Stikine on the way down. It also works great as a belay jacket/for breaks and rest periods (basically taking the role of your Cerium).

Likes:
- Very lightweight and quite packable for a seriously insulated 'proper' jacket
- Insulation is works great (even when wet) and is easier to care for than down.
- Burly enough for the purpose (even though only 2L Gore)

Dislikes:
- Maybe a touch to minimalist (eg pockets - and the chest pockets double as vents)

This thing has seriously changed the way that I tour and hike in cold conditions.


----------



## Blaze182 (Sep 7, 2009)

AmberLamps said:


> Can not fathom paying that much for a jacket. Should be able to find something just as good in the $200 range. Im sorry but $600+ for a jacket is absurd.


A few places have last season on sale, I just linked to Burton for the info. Sadly now my size is sold out, so I need to find a new Jacket anyway ><


----------



## Phedder (Sep 13, 2014)

neni said:


> Do you know of a any warmer primaloft based ascent jackets that Atom? Maybe with less filling at the back (heat accumulation from the backpack) or sort of a little windstopper on the front? Arc seems to only have down based warmer stuff which probably isn't what I'm looking for. They soak and are PITA to wash/dry... (doesn't neet to be Arc, but equally well designed with zipps n bags at the right places)


Black Diamond First Light Hoody - Very warm, very breathable. Combined with a good wind/waterproof shell and being on the move I couldn't see you getting cold wearing it. 



Blaze182 said:


> This is what I plan on taking for the next two trips:
> 2 x Gore-tex shell pants
> 1 x 15/15K Primaloft Jacket
> 1 x Gore-tex Shell Jacket
> Looking for 1 x Gore-tex insulated Jacket


Adding a Gore-tex insulated jacket specifically seems overkill. If it's cold enough that you need the insulation, then you don't need the Gore-tex. Any moderately waterproof and highly breathable Jacket should do, at a lower cost point. 

Personally I've moved away from insulated jackets and now strictly shells. Upper body is merino base layer, merino sweater + shell always. Depending on the forecast I either carry a good primaloft vest, or full primaloft hoody to layer with. Lower body is either 200 or 260 merino base layer and Gore-tex shell pants. The vest is great, warm enough to keep me happy, but also if the temp rises I can open the shell's pit vents and lose plenty of heat that way because there's no heavy insulation around my armpits/arms.


----------



## Blaze182 (Sep 7, 2009)

Phedder said:


> Black Diamond First Light Hoody - Very warm, very breathable. Combined with a good wind/waterproof shell and being on the move I couldn't see you getting cold wearing it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's identical layering to me; although I feel my primaloft was under-equipped for the day I wore it (its a light-weight from TNF); but given a 260 base + fleece + primaloft I was still going numb, not frigid frozen, but cold enough to warrant a trip back to the accommodation - my beanie, facemask and goggles were icing over. 

Any recommendations on a good, breathable primaloft mid-layer? The Black Diamond First Light seems nice.:grin:


----------



## Phedder (Sep 13, 2014)

Blaze182 said:


> Any recommendations on a good, breathable primaloft mid-layer? The Black Diamond First Light seems nice.:grin:


The only other one I can recommend is the one I use, this - Mens Pulsar Insulated Hoody | Macpac Australia

Luckily it's on sale  I don't think it's quite as breathable as the First Light, but I've worn it hiking when windy over a base layer and been fine, and I tend to sweat a lot hiking. Also makes a great pillow (except when the temp drops to -4 in summer and you've only got your summer sleeping bag with you, forcing you to wear it and go without a pillow :embarrased1: )


----------



## Blaze182 (Sep 7, 2009)

Phedder said:


> The only other one I can recommend is the one I use, this - Mens Pulsar Insulated Hoody | Macpac Australia
> 
> Luckily it's on sale  I don't think it's quite as breathable as the First Light, but I've worn it hiking when windy over a base layer and been fine, and I tend to sweat a lot hiking. Also makes a great pillow (except when the temp drops to -4 in summer and you've only got your summer sleeping bag with you, forcing you to wear it and go without a pillow :embarrased1: )


'Summer' and -4 don't go together, you must be camping quite high?

I'll probably get the First Light; the Macpac is a bit silver haha.


----------



## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

Phedder said:


> Black Diamond First Light Hoody - Very warm, very breathable. Combined with a good wind/waterproof shell and being on the move I couldn't see you getting cold wearing it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Exactly this ^
This is why I prefer layering. If it's that cold, it's not going to be raining, so i won't need Goretex. A reasonable 15k insulated jacket would do. Or what I think is my preferred approach is a goretex shell and an insulation layer for when you need it.

Not that cold? Just wear the regular layers.

Once you splurge on an insulated Goretex you're down quite a few $hundies and still, if it's a -1C rainy/wet day you're screwed cause the jacket's too warm. I like "some" insulation in the jacket, but it's not make or break I think..

I've seen a few North Face, HH etc downs at ~$150 or so. Not bad.


----------



## Phedder (Sep 13, 2014)

Blaze182 said:


> 'Summer' and -4 don't go together, you must be camping quite high?
> 
> I'll probably get the First Light; the Macpac is a bit silver haha.


Yeah I was up Temple Basin, around 16/1700m or so. The Alpine forecast was for a low of 3 so figured I'd be fine with my thermals and sleeping bag, wrong! 

The morning view made it worthwhile though, as unseasonably chilly as it was. 










If you do get the First Light, let us know how it goes!


----------



## SGboarder (Jun 24, 2012)

Phedder said:


> Black Diamond First Light Hoody - Very warm, very breathable. Combined with a good wind/waterproof shell and being on the move I couldn't see you getting cold wearing it.


Interesting, I looked at the First Light hoody but did not like/it did not make sense to me:
Heavy for a pure insulating piece/mid-layer - >60% heavier than the Atom Lt or Nano Air and without being (much?) warmer.
On the other hand does not have nearly the same weather protection (or even warmth) of a proper insulated outer jacket (like the Stikine – which incidentally also does not weigh much more).
Plus I hated that it does not have a hood adjuster/cinch cord .




Phedder said:


> Adding a Gore-tex insulated jacket specifically seems overkill. If it's cold enough that you need the insulation, then you don't need the Gore-tex. Any moderately waterproof and highly breathable Jacket should do, at a lower cost point.


Possibly true for resort riding and similar with predictable conditions - but even then an insulated outer jacket can make sense in places that are consistently cold.
However, it becomes more complicated as soon as there is significant variation in conditions and work levels (hiking/splitting, multi-day tours, etc. - even just riding in certain coastal climates).


----------



## neni (Dec 24, 2012)

Phedder said:


> Black Diamond First Light Hoody - Very warm, very breathable. Combined with a good wind/waterproof shell and being on the move I couldn't see you getting cold wearing it.


Thanks for the hint. This item wasn't available in my local shop, but when scanning through their Black Diamond stuff, I found the Deployment Hybrid which seems like a nice option: only fleece at the back and underarm to enable transpiration and avoid heat accumulation while wearing a backpack, but with thick primaloft insulation at the front n arms where I run cold. 

Guess, I'm set with this one for the cold days - if winter ever arrives over here this year, that is.


----------



## Blaze182 (Sep 7, 2009)

F1EA said:


> Exactly this ^
> This is why I prefer layering. If it's that cold, it's not going to be raining, so i won't need Goretex. A reasonable 15k insulated jacket would do. Or what I think is my preferred approach is a goretex shell and an insulation layer for when you need it.
> 
> Not that cold? Just wear the regular layers.
> ...


Had not considered when its that cold it won't be wet - that is much more logical, sort of explains why Moncler and Canada Goose don't use Gore-tex. 

I do like insulated for the fact I can wear a base-layer and nothing else on some days though, just open vents if its too warm, or the jacket. I guess it could be a problem on really warm bluebirds. 




Phedder said:


> Yeah I was up Temple Basin, around 16/1700m or so. The Alpine forecast was for a low of 3 so figured I'd be fine with my thermals and sleeping bag, wrong!
> 
> The morning view made it worthwhile though, as unseasonably chilly as it was.
> 
> ...


Great view! Definitely game at 1600m, even for summer, but its worth it. 
different countries, I would really hate to be paying that much for something no


----------



## Alonzo (Dec 30, 2015)

neni said:


> Thanks for the hint. This item wasn't available in my local shop, but when scanning through their Black Diamond stuff, I found the Deployment Hybrid which seems like a nice option: only fleece at the back and underarm to enable transpiration and avoid heat accumulation while wearing a backpack, but with thick primaloft insulation at the front n arms where I run cold.
> 
> Guess, I'm set with this one for the cold days - if winter ever arrives over here this year, that is.


I have a hoodless deployment jacket, and it is sweet. You'll dig it as a touring piece. I pair it with a BD Recon shell, which uses Windstopper throughout the body with a panel of Schoeller in the back for breathability. It's an awesome combo and breathes really well while providing warmth on the ascent. 

For really cold ascents, I double down on my thermals (Patagonia capilene ninja suit under a 260 weight merino shirt and mid-weight merino bottoms) and throw on a Smartwool Corbet 120 vest that, again, is insulated in the front, but a breathable merino/synthetic blend in the back. If that can't get me through, it's too cold.


----------



## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

Blaze182 said:


> Had not considered when its that cold it won't be wet - that is much more logical, sort of explains why Moncler and Canada Goose don't use Gore-tex.


Yep. Exactly.

A HIGH of -18C for next week. :dropjaw:

I'm going to need some puffy stuff.


----------



## neni (Dec 24, 2012)

Alonzo said:


> I have a hoodless deployment jacket, and it is sweet. You'll dig it as a touring piece.


Thanks so much for this hint! Got the BD Deployment (hoody) and it became my favourite piece of outware .
Kept me warm on ascent on windy overcast days, when it was snowing, and also was great on sunny warm days. The mixture of insulation or simple thin material at places where body heat with other jackets makes one sweat and then freeze is no problem with this jacket, but at the same time it keeps exposed body parts nicely warm. Back is always sry, no sweat accumulating beneath the backpack, no getting cold due to the humidity when making breaks.

Really dig the shape of the hood/neck. Closes nicely around the neck when hood is down as well. I've replaced the warm fleece neckwarmer with a very thin quick drying one now and only wear a thin merino base layer combined with this Deployment and was fine in all conditions, from cold storms to warm bluebitrds. Great ascent thingy!


----------

