# When to upgrade?



## novokaine (Feb 20, 2013)

So I have been boarding for about 25-30 hours total. I can go down blacks some with moguls. I go down the hills typically with dynamic skidded turns. I am riding a Burton Clash. I am noticing that I can't hold my edge very well on steep terrain. And I sometimes catch an edge when riding flat or getting lazy. You could say I am still a beginner maybe close to intermediate. After tracking my speeds on my android app I have a sustained speed of about 25mph and high speeds of 35 mph. I don't ride in the park and I am east coast so there is no powder.

Money isn't an issue. But I want to know is it too early for me to upgrade? 

I have been doing research and it sounds like a freeride/all mountain would be good? Or is it too early for me to be upgrading to that stiff of a board?

The snowboard shops in my area the people just seem to BS and try to sell me the boards they have on hand so I need some professional(unbiased) advice.


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## poutanen (Dec 22, 2011)

Yeah at 25-30 hours you're still a complete noob. Doesn't matter how athletic you are or how quick you pick things up. Just get out and ride for a while and worry about you gear later!


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## novokaine (Feb 20, 2013)

poutanen said:


> Yeah at 25-30 hours you're still a complete noob. Doesn't matter how athletic you are or how quick you pick things up. Just get out and ride for a while and worry about you gear later!


You're probably right, I want to clarify just incase. According to this app I am at 20 hours of slope time(time going down a hill), which is about 10 days of going to resorts.


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## behi (Feb 27, 2013)

If you can really do short radius dynamic turns, going with a more advanced board shouldn't be a big issue. Otherwise, you may find turning pretty challenging, particularly making tight turns, when it's steeper. You should be prepared for the new board to be less responsive to foot/torsional steering - which can be compensated for with good dynamic riding.

IME, the board can make a huge difference in edge hold, but if you can't turn it, that doesn't help you.

If you really are doing dynamic skidded turns (especially if you can do them on blacks), I wouldn't call you a beginner. If you are using pivot turns/windshield wiper technique, you should probably work on 'real' dynamic skidded turns first (easier to learn with your floppy board).

But if money is not an issue, you always have your old board to fall back on. Or you can try to find a rental shop with decent equipment and try a few different things...


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## TorpedoVegas (Dec 25, 2011)

Hey if money is no issue then go for it.. If you're like half the members on this forum, in no time you'll be buying/selling 2 or 3 boards a season anyway just for the hell of it....nothing a little G.A.S. won't cure


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## novokaine (Feb 20, 2013)

behi said:


> If you really are doing dynamic skidded turns (especially if you can do them on blacks), I wouldn't call you a beginner. If you are using pivot turns/windshield wiper technique, you should probably work on 'real' dynamic skidded turns first (easier to learn with your floppy board).


Hmm, How do i know if I am doing "real" dynamic skidded turns and not pivot turns/windshield wiper technique?

I watched the video of snow wolf doing the dynamic skidded and I feel like that is what I do but it is hard to tell because I cant really watch myself.


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## behi (Feb 27, 2013)

novokaine said:


> Hmm, How do i know if I am doing "real" dynamic skidded turns and not pivot turns/windshield wiper technique?


You shouldn't be pushing your back leg/tail around. If your tracks look like a washed out carve (S-shape), you are doing fine. The tail of your board should follow the turns reasonably smoothly and simply be traveling at a little larger radius than the tip.

If you are catching edges when turning, that should be a warning sign. Chances are, you are doing the windshield wiper technique or you are not tilting the board enough (which may actually be a big part of your edge hold issues).

If you are not too shy, just ask a few people that look friendly and look like they have a decent technique. Chances are, they will be happy to give you some feedback. Spotting the windshield-wiper guys isn't difficult...


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## novokaine (Feb 20, 2013)

Great advice behi! 

I do notice when I try to bleed speed down a steep hill I am kicking my back leg sometimes. And sometimes I don't. I will focus now on not doing it at all and just let the tail follow through the turn.


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## poutanen (Dec 22, 2011)

Have you taken any lessons yet? I'd invest in lessons and more riding before worrying about a board. Remember it's 90% rider 10% board!


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## Casual (Feb 9, 2011)

novokaine said:


> So I have been boarding for about 25-30 hours total.
> 
> I am riding a Burton Clash.
> 
> ...



Your not being able to hold an edge is not because of your board, you can see if sharpening your edges help but my guess is that its technique. In fact I will tell you with confidence that a softer rocker board can be easier to navigate in moguls than a stiffer camber board, it is just easier to throw around. It's also easier to catch an edge on flat on a rocker becuase they tend to want to pivot/wash out so just keep an edge at all times and don't get lazy. Your board is fine, infact I'd say its a pretty decent board to learn on and changing it now could actually hurt your riding.

For the life of me I can't understand why people associate quality with stiffness. Stiff boards are a preference, not an upgrade.

I ride all terrain on a 157 Ride Kink, 4 or 5/10 flex, soft boots barely tied up and med/soft bindings with my board heavily detuned for park and yet - I can hold an edge on steep terrain 45-55' pitch with no issue, I can charge moguls and ride pretty sketchy windblown hardpack. Its all in your technique. Just keep riding.


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## mixie (Mar 29, 2011)

poutanen said:


> Have you taken any lessons yet? I'd invest in lessons and more riding before worrying about a board. Remember it's 90% rider 10% board!


says the dude who rides an ironing board. 

OP, if money isn't an issue, demo if you can. Seriously, no one can tell you what you will like but you. 

Also, when I upgraded to a nice board from my crappy beginner board I was a LOT more confident on steeper terrain. Part of it was getting a board with magnetraction, It helped a LOT. A lot more then I thought it would...while new and better gear might not make you a better rider it would give you more confidence and that will help you get better. Esp since you said you're on the ice coast...


if you can get quality instruction, sure that's good too, but if you have the money why not have nice gear?


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## poutanen (Dec 22, 2011)

mixie said:


> says the dude who rides an ironing board.


Yeah, that I bought after 20 years of riding!!! :laugh:

This is just like the guy who wants to buy an R6 for his first bike. Learn to ride the Ninja 250 well and the R6 will actually feel good once you're on it.

I just think after 10 days on the hill his board is most likely not his limiting factor.


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## corneilli (Nov 26, 2012)

novokaine said:


> So I have been boarding for about 25-30 hours total. I can go down blacks some with moguls. I go down the hills typically with dynamic skidded turns. I am riding a Burton Clash. I am noticing that I can't hold my edge very well on steep terrain. *And I sometimes catch an edge when riding flat or getting lazy.* You could say I am still a beginner maybe close to intermediate. After tracking my speeds on my android app I have a sustained speed of about 25mph and high speeds of 35 mph. I don't ride in the park and I am east coast so there is no powder.
> 
> Money isn't an issue. But I want to know is it too early for me to upgrade?
> 
> ...


You think that's going to be better with a stiffer board? A stiffer board will punish you for whenever you are lazy, so if you catch an edge with being lazy with a rocker board, be sure to have 2 pairs of underwear if you're going to buy a stiff board.


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## novokaine (Feb 20, 2013)

poutanen said:


> I just think after 10 days on the hill his board is most likely not his limiting factor.


Probably not, but that doesn't stop my shopaholic tendencies. I am constantly looking at boards during my downtime at work. I am still curious what kind of board you guys would hypothetically suggest if I was ready to take it to the next level.

Btw great advice so far. It is really nice to have all the help.


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## corneilli (Nov 26, 2012)

novokaine said:


> Probably not, but that doesn't stop my shopaholic tendencies. I am constantly looking at boards during my downtime at work. I am still curious what kind of board you guys would hypothetically suggest if I was ready to take it to the next level.
> 
> Btw great advice so far. It is really nice to have all the help.


Burton Process (more park) or Custom Flying V might be a good shot :thumbsup: I'm suggesting a Burton because you have one, but there's no reason to not check out other companies, I just like Burton for their customers service, and they build great quality boards & bindings


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## novokaine (Feb 20, 2013)

corneilli said:


> Burton Process (more park) or Custom Flying V might be a good shot :thumbsup: I'm suggesting a Burton because you have one, but there's no reason to not check out other companies, I just like Burton for their customers service, and they build great quality boards & bindings


The Custom Flying V is one I considered but i have non EST bindings and I was hoping to not have to buy new ones and i did read that burtons aren't good for icy conditions.


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## poutanen (Dec 22, 2011)

novokaine said:


> The Custom Flying V is one I considered but i have non EST bindings and I was hoping to not have to buy new ones and i did read that burtons aren't good for icy conditions.


You can use ANY bindings on the Burton channel boards. The only thing you can't do is put EST bindings on a non-channel board.

Burtons are fine in icy conditions. The best board I have for ice doesn't even have the slightest thing like "magne-traction" in it's design...


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## hktrdr (Apr 3, 2012)

poutanen said:


> Have you taken any lessons yet? I'd invest in lessons and more riding before worrying about a board. Remember it's 90% rider 10% board!


+1. If money is no problem, invest in some lessons. Although laundry boy (because of his ironing board) is completely wrong: It is more 99% rider and 1% equipment
But that does not stop gear whores like us from constantly ogling and debating new gear...


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## behi (Feb 27, 2013)

hktrdr said:


> Although laundry boy (because of his ironing board) is completely wrong: It is more 99% rider and 1% equipment


I strongly disagree with that in the context of the OP. While an excellent rider can make anything work, in most sports throwing money at the problem can be quite helpful (snowboarding is no different) - especially if you have more money than time.

There is a massive difference in edge hold on hardpack between my boards (I sharpen edges every couple of days). If I don't have enough traction, I'm not having fun.



corneilli said:


> You think that's going to be better with a stiffer board? A stiffer board will punish you for whenever you are lazy,


That's a good thing in my book. It teaches you to be less sloppy in your technique.


> so if you catch an edge with being lazy with a rocker board, be sure to have 2 pairs of underwear if you're going to buy a stiff board.


That's sound advice. Being serious - interpreting the above liberally - some crash pants can be rather useful. Tail bone injuries suck and can take a really long time to heal.


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## Ljohnny (Mar 22, 2012)

TorpedoVegas said:


> ...nothing a little G.A.S. won't cure


What is G.A.S. ?


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## corneilli (Nov 26, 2012)

behi said:


> That's a good thing in my book. It teaches you to be less sloppy in your technique.


Yes but he made it sound like it was because of the board. Ofcourse it will help you in focussing more :thumbsup:


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## hktrdr (Apr 3, 2012)

behi said:


> hktrdr said:
> 
> 
> > Although laundry boy (because of his ironing board) is completely wrong: It is more 99% rider and 1% equipment
> ...


Sorry, but no. The OP is "a beginner maybe close to intermediate" and "can't hold [his] edge very well on steep terrain." That is a technique issue and throwing money at it well not solve the problem - while it might alleviate the symptoms, it will not address the underlying problem.

When used with proper technique pretty much any decent snowboard will have perfectly sufficient edge hold for intermediate riding.


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## novokaine (Feb 20, 2013)

hktrdr said:


> When used with proper technique pretty much any decent snowboard will have perfectly sufficient edge hold for intermediate riding.


Even the unsharpened edge of a burton clash on pure ice? 

Anyway, I am a snowboard addict so I am going every weekend. My technique will improve over time. Im sure of it. I will have my wife record me next time I go down the hill and watch the video that way i can look at ways to improve my technique.

Until then Upon further research and emailing some companies. I think I have my board decisions down to 3. (There is no where to demo around here so I just have to pull the trigger on one and live with it for a season).

*Lib Tech Skate Banana*(although I heard it is mostly park which im not doing I heard it does well on ice).
*Lib Tech TRS *(less forgiving than the banana, but better for freeriding which is what im doing?)
*Burton Custom Flying V*.

The Advice on this forum has been great so far and thanks again. Any final suggestions on which board would be great because I am going to pull the trigger on one of the 2013 sales so I can ride one before the season ends.


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## ghost68 (Mar 7, 2013)

Ljohnny said:


> What is G.A.S. ?


Gear Acquisition Syndrome... All it takes is a taste any you'll get the sickness :dizzy:

G.A.S. Cost me a fortune in camera gear last year...


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## poutanen (Dec 22, 2011)

ghost68 said:


> G.A.S. Cost me a fortune in camera gear last year...


Yeah that scares me. I've got a Canon EOS 300D (The original rebel) and some decent lenses, so I've been meaning to grab a used 5D Mark I or II... But then I figure I'll want more lenses, battery grips, etc. etc. etc. Where does it stop?


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## ghost68 (Mar 7, 2013)

poutanen said:


> Yeah that scares me. I've got a Canon EOS 300D (The original rebel) and some decent lenses, so I've been meaning to grab a used 5D Mark I or II... But then I figure I'll want more lenses, battery grips, etc. etc. etc. Where does it stop?


That's the thing it never stops! At least boarding this season has been a nice distraction from buying camera gear... That said I do have new bindings in the mail...


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## Jason (Feb 15, 2011)

novokaine said:


> So I have been boarding for about 25-30 hours total. I can go down blacks some with moguls. I go down the hills typically with dynamic skidded turns. I am riding a Burton Clash. I am noticing that I can't hold my edge very well on steep terrain. And I sometimes catch an edge when riding flat or getting lazy. You could say I am still a beginner maybe close to intermediate. After tracking my speeds on my android app I have a sustained speed of about 25mph and high speeds of 35 mph. I don't ride in the park and I am east coast so there is no powder.
> 
> Money isn't an issue. But I want to know is it too early for me to upgrade?
> 
> ...


East Coast Clash rider here. This is my 3rd season, have no problems with blacks and started riding doubles recently. My Ski tracks app for my iphone has me topped out at 48.8 mph and I generally ride in the mid 30's. 

I haven't caught an edge this season (knocks on wood) and haven't lost an edge on ice, although I do panic and slow down. I plan on upgrading to a Burton Custom this spring and just trying to decide if I want Cartels with (2014) or without (2013) the hinge.

Edit: I demoed the Custom with the Cartels and really liked it.


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## oldseed (Mar 7, 2013)

i say go for it. the libtech TRS is a great board which will last you a long time.

i started on a wide powder board and after my first season got an elan vertigo, which is as stiff as it gets and for advanced riders. sure it punished me. but i learned to carve.

i've recently switched down (ok 5 years in now) to a libtech trs and am amazed at just how much fun i can have hitting everything on the mountain... an all-round mountain board is great for many levels.


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## wrathfuldeity (Oct 5, 2007)

really, if $ is no problem, get a series of private lessons from a good instructor and ask them if its time to up grade and to what.

yes your technique will improve over time....but how much time...good instruction can make the time shorter.

at you level of time on the hill, i doubt that you have developed a preference of your style or type of riding....and the hill...is very important and a huge influence (where do you ride?) that you ride has alot to do with that....thus your preference will determine the board...btw freeride, freestyle, park, jib, all mt fr, all mt fs, big mtn fr, big mt fs, twin, directional twin, camber, rocker, cam rock, shovel nose, pintail, rock/flat/cam, c2 vs c3, different types of mag, differences in sidecut and radius...etc. get familar with the different design tech...they are made for doing different things in different conditions. If you get a board...get one that is going to take you to your preference assuming you have the hill for it.

IMHO at this point, invest in more time on the hill and lessons 

my 2 cents


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## behi (Feb 27, 2013)

novokaine said:


> *Lib Tech Skate Banana*(although I heard it is mostly park which im not doing I heard it does well on ice).
> *Lib Tech TRS *(less forgiving than the banana, but better for freeriding which is what im doing?)
> *Burton Custom Flying V*.


Assuming you want to do primarily groomers, I wouldn't go with a pure rocker board.

The Burton Custom Flying V doesn't have a good reputation for edge hold on hard pack.

So from your list, I would take the TRS.

If you want to look for more boards, here are a ton of reviews:
Snowboard Reviews | The Good Ride
Make sure to look at the 'In Depth Reviews' and check out the review criteria at:
About The Good Ride Reviews | The Good Ride
In particular, turn initiation should be 'easy' and edge hold 'great' to 'excellent'.


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## novokaine (Feb 20, 2013)

behi said:


> Assuming you want to do primarily groomers, I wouldn't go with a pure rocker board.
> 
> The Burton Custom Flying V doesn't have a good reputation for edge hold on hard pack.
> 
> ...


Thanks Behi, 

My G.A.S is out of control im about a day away from pulling the trigger on a TRS, SB or a NS Cobra. Need to figure out which I will most likely feel more comfortable going high speeds with.

BTW That is an awesome website that should keep me busy for a while.


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