# Calling AASI Guys, Just Wanna Know Some Things!



## Snowjoe (Jul 3, 2007)

RIGHT! 

So anyway I'm CASI certified and it seems as though you guys do things kinda differently to us. I just kinda wanna gain some knowledge into the way you do things because you can never know too much eh! I mean the more you know the better you can help your students if they aren't getting it in one way.

One thing I've noticed is alot of talk about no upper body rotation? Now as we progress through we start at pretty much 100% upper body to turn, using the upper body less and less until you are hardly using it and the lower body is doing 99% of the work. However even at the high performance turns we have an element of the upper body leading into the turn, however small that may be. How do you guys view all this, I mean if I ride all the time with my upper body permanently in line with my board through the turn it feels kinda stiff. Maybe I just got the wrong idea when I read your guys post's, maybe I didn't I dont know lol.

Another thing that I would like to know about is that putting pressure on the front foot to start the turn before the back foot. Is this a way to steer the board or just to initiate the turn? Also do you keep your weight fully centered to do this? I think maybe we do a similar thing in higher end turns as we slightly put more weight downhill when we initiate and slightly in the back seat to complete (very slightly), in a transition throughout the turn and the steering comes from the knees. I find doing that really helpful when the going gets steep!

Finally! How do you teach dead beginners, do you feel everything from AASI is relevant or do you alter some of their stuff for yourself to improve it. I mean when I teach the CASI progression I find theres things in there which are overly complicated and dont really serve a purpose.

Cool, anyway I dont want this to turn into a slagging contest between countries! I'm sure it wont I know everyone here is nice and mature! I guess the more techniques instructors know the more our classes can benefit.


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## daysailer1 (Nov 9, 2007)

I think it's good to compare notes too. I've looked briefly at the CASI site trying to figure out the differences but I can't remember why I didn't look deeper. I think maybe that I needed credentials to register on the CASI website.

If we find it confusing, the trainers find it even more complicated. Our school has a mixture of AASI, CASI, BASI, SBINZ, and APSI. They have to train to each system depending upon current location but I think Winter Park is heavily infuenced by SBINZ so I'm actually learning both systems. Our head trainer is actually a dual NZ/Canadian. I actually like the NZ system but apparently it's in a little flux too as to teaching. Our trainer actually took the AASI Cert 3 exams this season just to see the differences and this is a fellow who is near the top of the NZ system. It caused him alot of stress this season. 

Just because I don't feel like retyping everything Snowolf mentioned, I'll say I agree with 99.9% of his observations. Also even within AASI's division's there are some differences as to what's stressed. This season I've discovered and have been told by top trainers, examiners, former AASI Demo team members within AASI-Rocky Mountain that one sure way to dig yourself a hole within your examination is to mention the terms "countered-stance" and "counter-rotation" just because they lead to this exact confusion. We all know what they mean, we just don't always use them in the right context - which apparently drives examiners bonkers.

I caused confusion with one of my posts. In non-dynamic riding there shouldn't be any upper body counter-rotation happening. This changes with freestyle and highly dynamic riding. How can we do frontside or backside 180's without it. Or in the half-pipe -look at the counter-rotation these guys have to do to perform some of these tricks. Freetyle is an exception to the rule.

We are given alot of latitude of what we teach and how we present it. Our school however will not allow toe or heel side slipping to be taught in a lesson. My differences are: I don't teach looking over the shoulder. I like to have people pointing their shoulder, hip, nose of board, and where they are looking- all going in the same direction throughout all phases of the turn. I just know how difficult it is to break the looking over the shoulder habit once acquired. We aren't taught that in our division.

I agree with the torsional steering section of Sno's. I also agree with the centered stance; and weight shift thing in dynamic carving. Chris Hargave taught me this technique last season. It really helps but is a very subtle manuver.

I also agree with Sno's transfer for teaching. Each student is different. I try to draw from their current knowledge/sport database. It's amazing how you can transfer golf, dancing, skating, horse riding, and even bodily functions. One sure way I can get women to align correctly over the board on their heelside is to tell them to pretend like they are hovering over a dirty toilet seat. On the toe-side, well, the pee like a guy seems to work. In carving the alignments have been given to me as "hump & dump".:laugh:


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## daysailer1 (Nov 9, 2007)

Snowolf said:


> Oooo! this is a new one to me. What is their reason behind this? I know that AASI in general has shifted their position a bit on linked traverses or "falling leaf" in recent years. I understand this is`nt a "never teach this" policy, but is rather a response to mainly low level instructors setting this as a goal rather than having linking turns as a goal. It seemed too many students became really good all mountain riders......on their heel edge 100% of the time.
> 
> I am really curious as to their logic about not teaching sideslips. As part of our never ever class, we generally introduce this as a building block in which to introduce additional riding concepts. I also use the sideslip excercise as a means to get the student aware of controlling edge angle and developing a feel for it.
> 
> That is an interesting point about not teaching "looking over the shoulder" I never gave that any thought, but I can see how this can in fact become overdone and form a bad habit. Granted, when I teach that I am also stressing pointing the shoulder and keeping everything in line. I will maybe downplay this aspect a little.


I had to adjust my teaching progressions when I moved over to Winter Park. If you want to hear all the logic behind this - bring this up with Chris or Earl. It was an enforced rule. It took me half a season to finally come up with progressions that worked. The main logic is as you stated - we want people to control their speed and THEIR DIRECTION in the same lesson. In our never-ever lessons you work alot on the basics which makes it very rare to make it to the turns. Intro to Turns is the name of the next lesson. If it's a very aggressive and athletic group - I can still get them to turns.

My basic formula:

Boot fit - I've seen everything by now
Parts of board
how their bindings work
Edging and what it feels like
stance
skating
skating plus gliding, plus looking ahead not down at board/snow
straight glide to a stop
straight glide with toe-side engagement (press into tongues of boots)
straight glide with heel-side engagement (press into highback)
how to load and unload from chairlift
get on gemini lift and go to Discovery Park
Safety talk
teach toe-side traverse using hips,knees, and ankles. This first traverse I help each student individually with the goal of them getting proper alignment, balancing on toe-side edge, looking ahead, how to stop, how to control speed and direction using the hips/knees/ankles. This takes time but it does work. You must have developed rapport and trust earlier in the lesson for this to work. The student must trust you that you want them to succeed and won't let them fall hard too.
I make everyone go the same traverse no matter whether they are regular or goofy. It helps them understand weight placement and stance in the long run.
Next traverse everyone tries by them-self with coaching
Practice
learn heel-side traverse
practice
Put the pieces together. Top of turn is traverse, bottom of turn is traverse, middle of turn is straight glide with edge change.
Explain/demo turn toe to heelside edge
practice

In Intro to Turns - alot of time is spent on garlands. Garlands are wonderful if taught in the right context. This is mainly to enforce the whole hip, knee, ankle and looking where you are going. Falling leaf traverse can be uses at this point too. Depends upon the student.


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## junglecat1971 (Jan 14, 2008)

I was in a freeride snowboard camp in Jackson Hole a few years ago and when they taught me the "torsional steering" technique, I didn't get it and just let the concept slip away. I was changing so many other parts of my riding, that was just something I couldn't get my ahead around. I worked on much of the other things and really improved my riding. This year, I went back to JH again and got a private afternoon lesson and the instructor brought this technique back out again. This time I could really focus on what he meant and it was almost like magic haha. It really smooths out the turn and makes the transition much better. I think my weight transfer felt more natural. Still, it's not an automatic part of my riding yet but when I concentrate on it, I can really see the benefits of the technique. Particularly helpful on steeps and bumps.


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## daysailer1 (Nov 9, 2007)

Snowjoe,

I found the CASI promo video at http://www.casi-acms.com/videos/CASI_Intro_FULL.wmv

Wow, that is really different than AASI. Is that really how you guys do things in the levels? I'm not trying to criticize or demean your methods. That methodology would not be allowed in my school.


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## Snowjoe (Jul 3, 2007)

I've always thought CASI did things a little differently than the others, you could always see a difference between the NZ guys and us, never seen someone from the AASI system though as Canada is CASI dominated (obviously). Our ski school doesn't have rules of how you teach so to speak, they have guidelines of where the client should be at but how you get them to there is up to you.

I get the impression that we maybe have more movement going on than other countries, however after going through it all myself I'm confident when teaching it that the techniques do work. Also the riding in those videos is exaggerated alot, I only tend to ride completely textbook CASI when I'm demoing to a class, as they will obviously not make their movements as big as they see you do them, so by really exaggerating it might get them close to the right place.

Those descriptions of the different levels on the video weren't too great either, doesn't really give a good example of the level you need to be at, but thats not really important.

I would love to do qualifications in other countries, just to get a really sound idea of what is going on in other places.

Oh and thanks to all your replies, it does build a better picture of what you guys are up to, I really want to try out your pedal approach when I get to ride again, shame I have to wait till November


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## daysailer1 (Nov 9, 2007)

Glad to know those movements were exaggerated and the descriptions a bit off. I suspected they were but just wanted to confirm. Your techniques do work. It seems that the NZ/AASI are more similar.

I used to teach the side slip at my old mountain. It's kinda ironic that the two guys who told "no more side-slip" came out of the PNW. :laugh: It was Chris that showed me Winter Park's recommended progressions during new hire orientation. We could adjust progressions to make them our own, but no side-slip. Chris went straight from one footed straight glides with toe/heel engagement to performing traverses with both feet in. Nothing in between. He most definitely made it clear he didn't want to see any side-slipping. My supervisor a few years ago got called aside after he was observed using side-slipping. I've known others to be warned not to do this too.

What I do after the back foot out exercises and the start of both feet in is really a hybrid of sorts. It's a traverse but I'm getting them to do more garland type movements. It's putting the torsional twist in there with the hip/knee/ankle but I don't always mention it. It depends upon the group that I have. They are having a massive amount of material to digest at this point. I'll throw in this info in freeride practice.


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## daysailer1 (Nov 9, 2007)

More than likely he was just towing the WP party line. He was the trainer and we had to follow school protocols. I kinda balked at first because I thought it was a good edge control and safety technique too. I think I remember him mentioning that people fell too easily into it when challenged with new terrain and never learned to turn. If they aren't taught it, most likely they won't use it in the future. I had been using the "gas pedals" terminology for twist before then too. Chris said you could use it, but he didn't really like it. I switched to Chris' method. It's harder to teach but it does introduce the fundamentals of lower body steering much quicker. I remembered last night that I used to correct alot more for uppper body. I was told once by a super. "that's great but, hey, work on the lower body movements more". I still do upper body alignments - just a whole lot differently and more efficiently. I wanted more training than my old hill - I got it.:laugh:

I'll have to look at the video again and note the timepoints for reference. It's painful for me to watch. I need some COFFEE too.


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## daysailer1 (Nov 9, 2007)

Snowolf,

I’m PM’ing you an email address.


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## boarderaholic (Aug 13, 2007)

Daysailer, this sounds alot like the fall line edge change method that CASI introduced this season. It's very similar to traversing, but without the stopping. The point of this exercise is to teach using the heel/toe edge, but rotating the body uphill to switch edges. From what I understand, CASI introduced it to reduce the "sit down and roll onto the other edge" technique and to allow students to feel what it's like to start turning.


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## Snowjoe (Jul 3, 2007)

daysailer1 said:


> I'll have to look at the video again and note the timepoints for reference. It's painful for me to watch. I need some COFFEE too.


Sorry we aren't up to your AASI standards.



boarderaholic said:


> Daysailer, this sounds alot like the fall line edge change method that CASI introduced this season. It's very similar to traversing, but without the stopping. The point of this exercise is to teach using the heel/toe edge, but rotating the body uphill to switch edges. From what I understand, CASI introduced it to reduce the "sit down and roll onto the other edge" technique and to allow students to feel what it's like to start turning.


I remember this year when they introduced that fall line edge change, so many instructors were so confused about it all! I often preferred to use the stop anyway as its easier to explain to people, especially the kids.


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## daysailer1 (Nov 9, 2007)

No, it's not THAT bad. :laugh:

I'm depressed. Sunday is the last day for A-Basin. I didn't get my weekend fix on Sunday cause my ankle still hurts from a week ago from doing too many jumps and dropping the cornice. My ankle still hurts and I want to celebrate the last day at the Basin w/o killing myself. There is other potential drama there too if I run into a person that is still annoyed with me (and you would recognize the name:dunno I'm trying to make peace with the dude. 

My brain is balking at doing video MA analysis.

In reality, we aren't really doing linked traverses either. We really build upon the basics before introducing linked turns which is the goal. If anything it's garlands, garlands, garlands in our school with all the proper upper body alignments at the non-dynamic riding level. The NZ guys stress garlands, garlands, garlands, too. Get the fundamentals strong and then introduce the turns. Once you put the pieces together the first time, boom from the start, solid linked turns with all those nice lower body movements. Can you tell I adore teaching Burton LTR classes? 

Snowjoe, I think I didn't express correctly again.  Your techniques actually get people turning sooner. Turning is the goal correct? I bring enormous history baggage with me. I've learned many techniques over the years and they wound up as a combined mess for me. I never learned to get rid of the upper body rotation for a very long time. From my history it's painful, not from AASI standards. I apologize. 

At some point one has to learn proper upper body and lower body separation for moguls and such. I didn't even know of the concept until last season. One exercise that I was introduced to last season and worked on getting this season was pivot-slips. Interesting exercise. I was utterly horrible in January. I'm still working on a few pieces.


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## Snowjoe (Jul 3, 2007)

daysailer1 said:


> Snowjoe, I think I didn't express correctly again.  Your techniques actually get people turning sooner. Turning is the goal correct? I bring enormous history baggage with me. I've learned many techniques over the years and they wound up as a combined mess for me. I never learned to get rid of the upper body rotation for a very long time. From my history it's painful, not from AASI standards. I apologize.


Basically we have our beginner progression which gets you up to the basic turn which is the first in that video with heaps of upper body movement! Obviously this is far from an ideal way to get down the mountain, it still hurts me to do them for more than a few turns, it sucks! From there every turn is very similar to that first turn. Generally the next turn up in the progression will use more edge angle, more lower body steering and less upper body rotation. As we all know lower body control is where its at, faster and more efficient etc. Eventually you get to the stage where the upper body isnt providing really any of the energy for the turn, just used to slightly guide you in.

When it gets demo'd in videos and in front of classes we tend to get the CASI robot out with the super straight arms, and super exaggerated upper body and flexion + extension in the legs. 

I know what you mean about the mixed techniques! When I arrived in Canada I had been taight by the french! Front foot pivot and eurocarving at its best! Now theres nothing wrong with a good eurocarve for giggles but not all the time!

Sorry I got a big worked up, it must be the off season!


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## daysailer1 (Nov 9, 2007)

You know, CASI has a much better website than AASI. Ours is pretty pitiful compared to yours. Much of the AASI information is several years old and pretty boring. If you dig around you might find one short measly video clip telling people to take lessons from a professional. No fancy recruiting or training clips. I’m jealous. How did you guys get such a fancy informative website? Maybe I should drive over to the National office over in Lakewood today and complain.

Oh, my paychecks have Intrawest stamped all over them. I’m practically Canadian, EH?  :laugh: If I could afford a plane ticket right now I could go riding at Whistler for free this weekend for closing weekend. 

So I looked at the video again and not so hyperfocused on the beginner turn section. 

Some notes:

Really, the main difference I see between the two systems is at the start with the beginner turns. I think if I didn’t see that they are very similar.

Correct me if I’m wrong on these observations from that clip.

Level 1
1)	Beginner turns – they are saying and I’m seeing turns initiated by upper body rotation. Lots of exaggerated turns with the leading shoulder. I see pivoting around the front foot but that may just be the rider in the video. It seems to come and go. There is a locked front ankle sometimes. (This part drives me bonkers and I want to run screaming from the room.) 

2)	Novice turns – This seems to be where the two systems merge. Not so much upper body rotation and the rider’s pivot point seems to be more centered.
There is the introduction of stance, balance, alignment, & pivot at this stage too. There is the introduction of knees/hips/shoulders –over the board and same direction and the riders are demonstrating this.
There is mention of flexion/extension for edge engagement and release & timing and coordination. The systems are similar here. I think there is instructor leeway here as to how to incorporate it and introduction.


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## Snowjoe (Jul 3, 2007)

daysailer1 said:


> You know, CASI has a much better website than AASI. Ours is pretty pitiful compared to yours. Much of the AASI information is several years old and pretty boring. If you dig around you might find one short measly video clip telling people to take lessons from a professional. No fancy recruiting or training clips. I’m jealous. How did you guys get such a fancy informative website? Maybe I should drive over to the National office over in Lakewood today and complain.
> 
> Oh, my paychecks have Intrawest stamped all over them. I’m practically Canadian, EH?  :laugh: If I could afford a plane ticket right now I could go riding at Whistler for free this weekend for closing weekend.
> 
> ...


Intrawest sure know how to make their resorts! I've visited the village they build in Les Arcs in france and it's amazing!

Technically CASI approach the novice turn as the same thing as a beginner turn but with the flexion and extension for speed control, because they have a little fetish for speed control! The lower body then comes in for intermediate turns. 

In reality though I don't bother so much with the whole novice turn thing, the student knows from when we teach sideslipping that you slow down and speed up using this movement on the board so mostly I see people do it naturally, so I move away from this and start to focus on the lower body. I don't wanna leave people riding with their upper body for too long. Mostly I use it almost as an exercise to help them feel this movement to use in the intermediate turn.


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## daysailer1 (Nov 9, 2007)

> Intrawest sure know how to make their resorts! I've visited the village they build in Les Arcs in france and it's amazing!


Ooooh, I didn't know about that. Maybe they'll mention it at orientation this fall. Woooooo, free skiing in France. Maybe get to use some employee housing too.

You should see what they are doing at Winter Park.  Within the next ten years it's really going to be an international mega-resort. :thumbsup: It's still owned by the City of Denver but Intrawest is injecting so many needed improvements and upgrades. They haven't worked on improving the nightlife in town.

I'm glad that you guys get to modify your lesson progressions.

I've known of a Cert 2 who went on vacation up in BC for a week or so. Seems he didn't bring enough $$. He checked in with a school to see about making some $ for a few days. They said only since he was a Cert 2, they could probably work something out. Once restocked, he resumed his vacation. I wondered if he had to adjust his teaching slightly - sounds like he didn't need to.


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## Snowjoe (Jul 3, 2007)

daysailer1 said:


> Ooooh, I didn't know about that. Maybe they'll mention it at orientation this fall. Woooooo, free skiing in France. Maybe get to use some employee housing too.
> 
> You should see what they are doing at Winter Park.  Within the next ten years it's really going to be an international mega-resort. :thumbsup: It's still owned by the City of Denver but Intrawest is injecting so many needed improvements and upgrades. They haven't worked on improving the nightlife in town.
> 
> ...


We have so many people in our resort from so many places that they let us teach our methods, we get alot of aussies and kiwis up here so alot of the time you get a group which has been with a kiwi and your trying to figure out what they have done in the lesson! In fact I wish they would run clinics to familiarise us with the two progressions, I might suggest it next season I guess.

As for the village, if you got free stays there it would be super rad!









The village looks cool right, but check out the trail map now they have joined Les Arcs and La Plagne.










Les Arcs itself has 54 lifts, and runs from 800 to 3225 meters. Its epic if you get the snow.

This is a photo I took from the peak of Aguille Rouge, the 3225 meter limit. Lucky it goes that high because you can see the snow at christmas a couple of seasons back in the valley sucked! Proper ghetto cable car station!










So yeah, I love that place!

Oh and it's just round the corner from Tignes and Val val d'isere. Nice.


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## daysailer1 (Nov 9, 2007)

Intrawest has these really great side bene's. Heck, they'll even book your travel for you at a discount.

Man, that looks nice! I've always wanted to go there!

Is it true what all our kiwi's are telling me? They say in France all that snowboarders do is Eurocarve and leave deep single trenches all over the slopes. They mentioned something about moonlight riding, glaciers and alcohol too.


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## Snowjoe (Jul 3, 2007)

daysailer1 said:


> Intrawest has these really great side bene's. Heck, they'll even book your travel for you at a discount.
> 
> Man, that looks nice! I've always wanted to go there!
> 
> Is it true what all our kiwi's are telling me? They say in France all that snowboarders do is Eurocarve and leave deep single trenches all over the slopes. They mentioned something about moonlight riding, glaciers and alcohol too.


Its like they're stuck in the 80's! My instructor there actually taught me to eurocarve, because its intense! It sent me up well for any retro days though. Also the skiiers all ski with their legs like theyre duct taped together!

But yeah theres lots of glaciers, mainly because the resorts tend to be nice and high, but along with that you can get some epic exposure to the elements. Alcohol is indeed in abundance, breakfast lunch and dinner.

Until you've been to europe you can't begin to understand the following of one-pieces there. I thought sunshine village was bad when the english descend upon it, but this is something else.


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