# Any recent reviews on the new 2012 Union Force



## buggravy (Feb 19, 2008)

FWIW the toe-strap on the preproduction bindings fit my boots perfectly, as did the previous generation toe-strap. Sounds like they just fit some boots better than others. For me Union toe-straps work better than any other toe strap I've used.


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## Nivek (Jan 24, 2008)

The only redesign they did was the toestrap. That's it. Other than that it is the exact same binding as 2006. Look elsewhere I say. Raiden Zeros, Flux TT30's, Flow M9's, and K2 Uprises in my opinion all ride better and are a better value than Forces.


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## Nose Dradamous (Jul 19, 2010)

Wrong again jeenyus. Force ankle straps been completely reworked also. As have the ratchets. Force is kick ass, regardless of what Kevin says. With all his posts on here, I find it hard to believe he can even find the time to ride, never mind be an authority on product. Specially Union.


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## Nivek (Jan 24, 2008)

Nose Dradamous said:


> Wrong again jeenyus. Force ankle straps been completely reworked also. As have the ratchets. Force is kick ass, regardless of what Kevin says. With all his posts on here, I find it hard to believe he can even find the time to ride, never mind be an authority on product. Specially Union.


So First names huh? Johan if I'm not mistaken. DOOD its summer and I'm not rich or pro, I can't shred right now... I've also said before, I spent 3 years riding Union exclusively and have ridden most of you're lineup. Have I ever owned Forces? No. The first time I speculated they hadn't changed since day 1 I gave a disclaimer asking YOU to comment otherwise. You didn't, therefore I assumed I was correct. 

Apparently there has been a strap redesign and Union, after years of poor customer feedback, have finally gotten around to doing something about their dated ratchets. WOOPY. For $200 I'd still rather ride TT30's. Or Indy's. Or Zero's. Or Fives. Or Uprises. Or Arcades.


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## Nose Dradamous (Jul 19, 2010)

Hmmm, never owned a pair of Forces Kevin, but feel the need to comment on them? Somethings up. You got your panties all in a bunch about Union. Whats the matter buddy? Let me help.


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## Nose Dradamous (Jul 19, 2010)

Enigma, do a little research on EL for some other opinions on Union. Kev's got a hair across his ass on it, and will hate all the way to the end. Whatever...seek knowledge and you will find.


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## Nivek (Jan 24, 2008)

Nose Dradamous said:


> Enigma, do a little research on EL for some other opinions on Union. Kev's got a hair across his ass on it, and will hate all the way to the end. Whatever...seek knowledge and you will find.


I tried to get in on EL. Like hard. They literally only care about Union and Burton there. It's pointless. Try to find something remotely bad about either company there. I couldn't. 

The only thing I have against Union is that they don't match up for the money. There isn't anything to help me with. I rode them for a while without giving thought to try anything else. Finally started trying other bindings again and found that Unions just weren't as good. All mountain? Salomon Chiefs or K2 Companys. Park? Raiden Zeros or Flow M9's. Jib? Salomon Arcades or Flow Quattro's.

Union/CAPiTA reps were kinda pricks at SIA and decided to be the only company to care that I didn't recieve my demo badge so I didn't get the chance to try the Atlas or Flites. You still have hope to woo me. If it rides good it rides good. So far what I've ridden is mediocre. Though I have always said Union displayed good durability for me, my Contacts lasted me 3 full seasons and over 200 days.


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## Nose Dradamous (Jul 19, 2010)

There it is, hidden in there. Your pride got hurt because you came to the demo and because your not a part of a shop, you got denied. See Kev, the SIA demo isn't set up for internet chat room hero's to increase their wealth of opinions to spew all over the message boards. It's for shops, to try the product that they think they will bring in the next season. Our tents only have enough product for shop dudes. Actually we dont. So bloggers, industry, magazines, review sites and people like you were turned away so that the people that were there to do their job, could. Sorry you go denied. I get denied to getting back stage at concerts all the time. But next year Kevin, come up to the tent or our booth in Denver (if you can get a badge to get in), find me - you know what I look like, I'm real transparent on here, and introduce yourself. I'll take you thru the line, go for a rip with you, and even buy you a beer. You can walk away and still hate, but at least then, the Union brands comments by you will have some substance. 

Not clowning Flow, as I totally respect EVERYTHING they have accomplished and their product, but talk to ANY shop dude, at ANY shop that sells them and ask the opinion of Flow vs. Union value to dollar. Same with Nitro...I mean Raiden if you can even find a shop that sells them. Ha, dude your killing me with THAT comparission. Salomon bindings, please. They sell one binding, and it's the colorful low end that they package up to leverage their decks into stores. K2, ok you substance there, granted you've actually ridden the bindings, not read about them on the internet. Flow Quattros, shit dude even ask the Flow guys how they stack up against Union. Your a funny guy Kev. Killing me.

Anyway, serious on the binding demo offer and the beer. See you in Denver or Winter Park. Again, my name is Johan and I work for Union, CAPiTA and Coal.


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## Nivek (Jan 24, 2008)

I was working for a shop at the time broseph. And as a former shop kid, I also know that most shop kids don't know their ass from their nose when it comes to a large breadth of gear. I CHOOSE to ride Flow over Union and ride Quattros. Better than my Contacts. And I ATTENDED SIA in a legitimate media capacity. Oh and now I work for a snowboard company just like you! Wowzers! You can't find Raiden cause 2011 was probably the first year the were good enough to think about them. For 2012 they're solid and have better tech in them than Union. Not to mention you are doing a great job at representing you company right now by picking on one of the few people here that doesn't like most of Unions products... Also:

2006 K2 Formula









2012 K2 Formula









2006 Burton Cartel









2012 Burton Cartel









2006 Union Force









2012 Union Force










SOOOOOOOO DIFFERENT OMG. You get why people like me feel like they haven't changed since day 1?


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## rgrwilco (Oct 15, 2007)

I feel where you are coming from on unions. Yeah the forces have been the same basic style since day one, but I am glad that they are. They work. Ugrades to the straps and buckles are definitely welcome, but besides those, there was not a thing to change on the forces. Union does have other bindings that are much different than their previous models. Contact pro's are definitely my favorite union bindings. They are well thought out, well built, and damn comfortable.

That being said, are unions the best? its all subjective. Last season i did not ride union. Not because i hate, but because i wanted to try other brands. I was on flux for the first time, tried some new burton things, and some of the new ride bindings. I found flux to be more comfortable than union, but hate not being able to adjust the heel cup. I guess what i am trying to say is pretty much all the major players put out a good bindings, I do not thing much could be done with the force to make it any better, and there are things i like and dislike about pretty much every piece of snowboarding gear i have ridden.

I will say this though. The only two brands of bindings i will probably stick with are ride and union. Anything else makes me feel like i am raised off of my board. With ride and union, i feel like i actually feel connected with the board.


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## Steez (Jun 25, 2011)

nose dont act ignorant, the forces have hardly changed, the bindings are still good don't get me wrong but at that price range you can get better bindings


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## Nose Dradamous (Jul 19, 2010)

Not saying that Union is the best, and you are correct, the Forces baseplates are the same from day one. We have not changed that mold, every thing else though has gone thru yearly refinement. Highbacks, heel loops, discs, bolts, toe and ankle straps as well as ratchets. A Force from 7 years ago may look similar to one that comes out today, but it's two completely different products. You want a better, new, next Force? It's called the Atlas.

Anyway, I know our stuff isn't for everyone, nor should it be. When you try to be everything to everybody, you get a me too product. We're totally cool with that our stuff doesn't work for everyone. 

My problem is that ex-shop kid and now industry media bro Kevin tends to hi-jack every Union question that comes up and gets all in flames about the stuff because we didn't let him ride our stuff at a demo he shouldn't have been at. If it didn't work for you Kevin, and you like sliding your feet into a triple threat reclining highback instead, fine. But when you haven't ridden the product and you come on a message board acting like an authority on something you have no clue about, then...dude I got a problem with it. 

The only reason I ended up posting on this message board was because people were hitting us up saying that there was a bunch of hate on this message board and that they thought someone should address it. They were obviously fans of the product.

Don't get me wrong, I totally dig Flows following, respect what Nitro, and Salomon have developed and think its a great product. Like what Flux has done, and totally bow down to the dudes in VT with the product their putting out. We have something different, put a lot of time, money and effort into it. And it deserves its fair shake. We have the number one selling binding brand at retail (not units Kevin, but sell thru, SIA numbers bro) and have earned that respect thru customers dollars. 

The pro's that make their living off of standing sideways that ride the product for free speak as loudly about the product as our pro team does. Kev, take a look at the new buyers guide...weird to see some of the best riders in the world that buy Union bindings, when they can get anything else they want for free. Now, I know they don't have as much experience typing up regurgitated opinions from your hero Angry guy but still, it's worth its weight in gold to us.

So Kev, what industry company are you presently working for? And wtf with the cut and paste crap on all the bindings? Was that a collage you pulled off your wall?


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## Nivek (Jan 24, 2008)

Seeing as how you have a vendetta against me you dont need to know where i work. And I actually defended Union to Angry for a while, at least until I started really putting it to a serious comparison. I don't follow everything he says. For example he thought the fastplant was a turd and its in my top 10 pastor boards for 2012. I still don't get where you think I'm just some nobody who drove to winterpark in hopes I could snake some 2012's demos. I was there for media but if I wanted to I just had to ask my then current employer, SSV, to slide me an extra demo ticket and i would have had one. I didnt need it till I showed up at Union Capita, but decided it wasnt worth it by that point. And to be honest i couldnt give a rats ass what transworld says about anything. My experience is if you don't have a binding sponsor youre on one thing. Cartels. It's been that way for years.

And I try not to "hijack" Union threads with definitive statements. I will normally use the words in my opinion or i feel like. I didnt start getting aggressive till you pissed me off. Guess what, I hold more weight here than you do, pissed you off i guess. You're biased, you have to be. I can give subjective opinions. Do I lord the fact that I'm respected here over people? Fuck no. Its the goram internet and a forum at that. You clearly feel threatened by me in your reason for coming to this forum. Haters bring down hype and possibly effect a purchase. Maybe if you believed in your product more you'd just let it go when a few people hate on it. But then again I've felt for a while that Union is based more on hype than other companies. Case and point, most super diehard Union riders I meet have ridden few if any other quality bindings. MikkyDees are great burgers till you go to in'n'out or carls Jr. or what have you...

That collage you call it? Oh i don't know, we're on the internet maybe?

Clearly im getting to you, clearly you dont have as much faith in your product as you should, and clearly you think this media bro has enough influence that you feel the need to attack him on his forum of choice.

Go study rocks more.


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## buggravy (Feb 19, 2008)

Nivek said:


> Case and point, most super diehard Union riders I meet have ridden few if any other quality bindings. MikkyDees are great burgers till you go to in'n'out or carls Jr. or what have you...


This was always the vibe that I had, especially when I started coming to this forum 4 - 5 years ago. Seemed like a lot of blind devotion, vs. what sounded like real functional issues. Really put me off of Union, and kept me from trying them out. For whatever reason I got compelled to give Forces a shot midway through this past season, and in short order unloaded all my other binders and decked my full arsenal out in Forces. I'd been on Targas and 390s pretty exclusively for 3+ years, but also tried out Formulas, TT30s, & SF45s. All were great bindings, but each had some functional deficit for me, whereas the Forces had none. Maybe I'm just lucky that Forces just happen to integrate so well with type and size of boot I use, but either way I fell in love with as a result of experimentation, and legitimate functional preference, as opposed to following the herd.


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## Nivek (Jan 24, 2008)

buggravy said:


> This was always the vibe that I had, especially when I started coming to this forum 4 - 5 years ago. Seemed like a lot of blind devotion, vs. what sounded like real functional issues. Really put me off of Union, and kept me from trying them out. For whatever reason I got compelled to give Forces a shot midway through this past season, and in short order unloaded all my other binders and decked my full arsenal out in Forces. I'd been on Targas and 390s pretty exclusively for 3+ years, but also tried out Formulas, TT30s, & SF45s. All were great bindings, but each had some functional deficit for me, whereas the Forces had none. Maybe I'm just lucky that Forces just happen to integrate so well with type and size of boot I use, but either way I fell in love with as a result of experimentation, and legitimate functional preference, as opposed to following the herd.


That's fair, and if someone who has experience with other stuff and prefers something I dont personally like i wont tell you you're wrong. But I'm also not going to stem my opinions to save someones feelings on the interwebz.


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## buggravy (Feb 19, 2008)

Also fair. Not drawing a line in the sand - just offering a little counterpoint.


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## idshred (Jun 20, 2010)

hmmmmm popcorn


wheres leo?


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## Nivek (Jan 24, 2008)

Hey if it helps this anger fest have any kind of value, I want to ride Atlas's, Flites, Schieder Zero, Ultrafear, and FkN Awesome even more than I did at SIA...


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## Nose Dradamous (Jul 19, 2010)

Offer stands Kevin...show up at SIA or Winter Park, introduce yourself and I'll take you thru the line, go for a clip with you and then buy you a beer. After that, you'll have actual experience with the goods, plus some knowledge, vs. assuming you know whats up. 
But that's some serious risky business for you Kev, as you'd have to talk to someone face to face, couldn't pound on your key board to be a hero, and actually have to shred. Ballsy. Your facade could come to an end. I've found the dudes running their mouths the most about what they know are usually the ones that should keep their mouths shut. But we'll see.


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## Slush Puppie (Aug 15, 2011)

Nose, FWIW I have absolutely no experience with Union and very little with others. All I know is that you're coming across to me as kindava dick right now. I can certainly understand your desire and right to defend your brand and correct details posted on the internet about it. But as you seem to represent Union officially, maybe you should consider just letting your arguments speak for themselves? For me you've managed to devalue most of them with your tone and reading this post has just simply been unpleasant. You're my first real introduction to the brand. And you've singlehandedly put me right off.


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## Nivek (Jan 24, 2008)

Nose Dradamous said:


> Offer stands Kevin...show up at SIA or Winter Park, introduce yourself and I'll take you thru the line, go for a clip with you and then buy you a beer. After that, you'll have actual experience with the goods, plus some knowledge, vs. assuming you know whats up.
> But that's some serious risky business for you Kev, as you'd have to talk to someone face to face, couldn't pound on your key board to be a hero, and actually have to shred. Ballsy. Your facade could come to an end. I've found the dudes running their mouths the most about what they know are usually the ones that should keep their mouths shut. But we'll see.


Wow, you didn't have to be snarky, I was trying to end this. I will do my best to see you in WP.


I genuinely hope I like some of your stuff. I do still love the Green Machine, that board rules. I rode CAPiTA/Union for so long cause I loved the company vibes, so despite my tone here which I will respectfully try to bring down a notch (not my opinions, just my tone in giving them) I want good for Union and CAPiTA. Shit, Zima and Stevens are two of my favorite riders and Kimura is one of few girls worth watching in the streets.


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## .enigma. (Dec 20, 2010)

The reason im interested in union forces is because I want to buy from my local shop and they only sell union and burton bindings. I would get cartels but i think theres just something wrong about putting burton bindings on a lib tech board


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## Dano (Sep 16, 2009)

.enigma. said:


> The reason im interested in union forces is because I want to buy from my local shop and they only sell union and burton bindings. I would get cartels but i think theres just something wrong about putting burton bindings on a lib tech board


I don't think Travis rice has a problem with it


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## Justin (Jun 2, 2010)

Nose Dradamous said:


> Offer stands Kevin...show up at SIA or Winter Park, introduce yourself and I'll take you thru the line, go for a clip with you and then buy you a beer. After that, you'll have actual experience with the goods, plus some knowledge, vs. assuming you know whats up.
> But that's some serious risky business for you Kev, as you'd have to talk to someone face to face, couldn't pound on your key board to be a hero, and actually have to shred. Ballsy. Your facade could come to an end. I've found the dudes running their mouths the most about what they know are usually the ones that should keep their mouths shut. But we'll see.


hey... get out. no one here wants to hear from you. nivek is on here helping ppl all the time. he rides multipule brands. he recommends multipule brands. you work for one company and its your job to tow the company line. probably attacking one of the most respected and helpful ppl on here is not gonna win you points. wiredsport recommends boards that i don't see on there site and just helps ppl with out attacking others. maybe you should go and read all of those posts before you write anything again.


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## Nivek (Jan 24, 2008)

.enigma. said:


> The reason im interested in union forces is because I want to buy from my local shop and they only sell union and burton bindings. I would get cartels but i think theres just something wrong about putting burton bindings on a lib tech board


In that case the Unions I disliked the least so far are the Contact Pro's. From Burton the Cartels, and Malavita's are well recieved... But what board are these going on and what's your riding style?


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## Nose Dradamous (Jul 19, 2010)

Slush Puppie said:


> Nose, FWIW I have absolutely no experience with Union and very little with others. All I know is that you're coming across to me as kindava dick right now. I can certainly understand your desire and right to defend your brand and correct details posted on the internet about it. But as you seem to represent Union officially, maybe you should consider just letting your arguments speak for themselves? For me you've managed to devalue most of them with your tone and reading this post has just simply been unpleasant. You're my first real introduction to the brand. And you've singlehandedly put me right off.


When's the last time a DICK offered to run you thru a entire line, answer all your questions, take some runs with you and buy you a beer? 

Yea, this tit for tat shit is pretty lame. Internets just like the tv, if you don't like what your reading then change the channel. 

See you in Denver Kevin. Stoked to meat you.


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## Slush Puppie (Aug 15, 2011)

Are you addressing me, or Nivek with this message?


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## Dano (Sep 16, 2009)

What ever happened to solving differences the old fashion way? I say knife fight


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## .enigma. (Dec 20, 2010)

Nivek said:


> In that case the Unions I disliked the least so far are the Contact Pro's. From Burton the Cartels, and Malavita's are well recieved... But what board are these going on and what's your riding style?


lib tech t rice 153

Im mostly freeride with a little park. Probably 75/25


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## Leo (Nov 24, 2009)

buggravy said:


> This was always the vibe that I had, especially when I started coming to this forum 4 - 5 years ago. Seemed like a lot of blind devotion, vs. what sounded like real functional issues. Really put me off of Union, and kept me from trying them out. For whatever reason I got compelled to give Forces a shot midway through this past season, and in short order unloaded all my other binders and decked my full arsenal out in Forces. I'd been on Targas and 390s pretty exclusively for 3+ years, but also tried out Formulas, TT30s, & SF45s. All were great bindings, but each had some functional deficit for me, whereas the Forces had none. Maybe I'm just lucky that Forces just happen to integrate so well with type and size of boot I use, but either way I fell in love with as a result of experimentation, and legitimate functional preference, as opposed to following the herd.


This is the very reason I had any animosity towards Union. It was because of the countless blind followers that really didn't give other good bindings a fair shake touting Union as the best binding ever hands down. The same followers that completely trashed threads about other binding companies, especially Flow.

In reality, my two major complaints about the Contact Pro and Forces were the toe straps and ratchets on the toe straps. Which they have said to have reworked. 

Johan, for what it's worth... most of us "bloggers" don't claim to ride like pros. We have nothing to prove. You're equating gear knowledge with riding skill when the two aren't mutually exclusive. In fact, it can be said that when you are at a pro level of riding, gear matters less. It's like a food critic that has never cooked in their life. Does that mean they do not have an extensive knowledge of food and a complex palate?

Look at Angry Snowboarder. He doesn't walk around claiming to be some snowboarding God. But you can't doubt that he has an extensive knowledge about this sport and the equipment in it.

As for these forums, people ask gear questions and they get answered. They see that they have access to a bunch of riders that have the ability to demo lots of gear. So they ask for reviews and opinions about them. That's the nature of the beast.


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## tekniq33 (Mar 18, 2009)

I feel pretty well suited to comment in this thread. I have a ton of posts here and about 900 posts over on EL. I have owned Forces and ridden Contact Pros. Warning this is going to be long.

Up until last year I was hooked on Ride bindings. Loved the toe strap, the canting, never had an issue. In there I did also have a pair of '10 Forces which I HATED. They did not stay screwed in to my Evo and the toe strap never stayed on. Sold them for Delta's which I loved. Also rode contact pros at Loveland for two days last year. Liked these a lot but again the damn toe straps would not stay on.

Last year I got a pair 390 Bosses which I liked more than the Delta's. 
I then swapped the Bosses for Cartel Reflex. I think these are the best bindings I have ridden. The conclusion I came to was I like them for their simplicity, comfort and effectiveness. I realized the Rome and Ride bindings were almost trying to do too much. The Burtons worked just as well, were more comfortable and held up better than any of the others. I am now more a believer in simple get the job done designs. I think this fits union to a t.

My plan this year was to sell my Ride CAD and get another pair of Burtons or give the new Ride baseplates or new Targa's a try. I may now look back at unions. They have several new designs, the problematic toe strap is changed, they have a sick stable of riders, my favorite rider Jeremy Jones rides them and yes they have a ringing endorsement on EL. Also I like the capita and union brand and message and think Johan is a kickass dude. 

I hated on Burton (like many on this forum) for basically no reason. I now think they make the best bindings out there, which is probably why they are ridden by most pros without binding sponsors. Many people on here hate on Union, I am not going to say whether or not they are justified and based on experience but I am sure some of it is due to group think. I think the same about EL and their somewhat blind hate on Never Summer.

This board generally consists of way less experienced riders than EL (at least not as bad as trusnow). Many of the more experienced and knowledgeable riders on EL ride and endorse union. These are people like Parker and Spenser who post videos of their riding and you know they back up what they say. This gives me more comfort to take another shot with them (and the JJ endorsement.) I think anyone selecting based on opinions only should weigh both sides but give more weight to experienced and knowledgable riders. (though Spenser does rock different straps on his unions, which IMO means you don't really love the product.)

Almost done. Johan and all the C3 cats are stand up dudes. He is on here being a little aggressive, sure, but he is just defending something he believes in. They also have one of the most fervent fan bases in the industry for a reason. 

While I fully agree that Avran knows his shit and has ridden more gear than almost anyone, he still hates on a lot of stuff that the vast majority love. I have never heard anything bad about the BSOD for example and of course he hated it. I think sometimes he gets caught up in sticking to his brand message. I also have zero clue of how he rides. I assume him to be pretty good and certainly better than me but I am more willing to trust opinions of people I ride with or have seen extensive footage on. 

/end of rant


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## phony_stark (Jul 2, 2011)

+1 for Tek' 

I also think Johan was in the right for getting pissed with Nivek for posting some haterale when the subject of the post was asking for feedback on the Union Force, specifically the toestrap, on some bindings he's never owned (I don't know if he's tried them though...), or even done his research on how the binding has changed since 2006 before saying it hadn't changed (A non-reply isn't an answer).

I understand hate w.out facts is par for the course for many message boards but, coming here from time to time, I really respect (and will continue to respect, if it has nothing to do with Union) Nivek's opinion on snowboarding gear and his participation in this community. I was really bummed to see that kind of "opinion" from someone who has over 3K posts and the ears of a lot of people on this board. It was irresponsible.

All that being said, while Johan can come off as fucking abrasive, I can guarantee you he's a fucking sweetheart. He's showed a shitload of love to people on snow and messageboards and is always down for suggestions and comments, just don't be on some bullshit. Even though it was laced with some epic ribbing of Kevin, he genuinely is down to show him the whole c3 shebang at the next event, grab a brewster, and get Nivek to actually ride some forces and then form an opinion.

[Newbie Opinion Not Required to Read]
I've only had 20+ days on the snow total, but am fortunate enough to have some good friends to ride with.
My favorite bindings thus far have been

The Union Forces
Rome 390 Boss
Burton Cartels
Union DLX
Burton Missions

I thought the 390s were SUPER COMFY but tough to set up on my board for me, and I was told I couldn't be tough on the ratchets. I may try them again at some point when I'm super advanced, I've heard they fixed the ratchets this year too.
I liked the Cartels, but they were a LOT (to me) more expensive than the forces and, thanks to the help of this board, I was able to move things around to not get as much forward lean, but again, it took a lot of adjusting.
I liked the Missions, just not more than the forces.

I went with the forces because of two guys I know who have the 2007 models, and while they eventually needed new ratchets, they have both attested to the fact that are pretty much indestructible, work great on any board, are easy to set up and have not tried to do any radical redesign, only improve and modernize. I've found this to be true so far.


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## Dano (Sep 16, 2009)

*Not trying to hijack

Yo tek, or anyone that has tried them, what did you think of the recent cartels? Mainly the stiffness for edge to edge response. Looking a good stiff binding for charging but still maintaining tweakability. I hear they backed off the forward lean too


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## Nivek (Jan 24, 2008)

Well, the last time I rode Forces was 2009's. And rode 07's. That is where my opinion that they haven't changed came from. To me they did not feel different. I have ridden them, and I also have 10 years and over 50 days just last season of riding. I obsess over gear, I plan to design boards and for years intended to design bindings. I studied physics and mechanical engineering in college. This stuff makes sense to me.


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## jdang307 (Feb 6, 2011)

Johan reps a company. He comes in here and rips on a bunch of other companies. Assumes a bunch of shit about Nivek and was wrong over and over again. That's some serious douche activity right there.

I have no biases I'll try anything and everything but don't think it'll ever be a Union. Sounds like a douche company if this guy is repping it. He didn't rep Crapita too hard so I may still give them a try, specifically the Charlie Slasher.

And I hit up EL regularly. But ignore a lot of it. I'm still a newb but a forum where all of its members pimp Burton (I think burton gets a fair shake around here despite some hate) with a big banner at the top right that takes you to Burton's site, ehh, I'll pass. I see what's going on there  Funny the forum wars. EL thinks SBF hurts their brain, SBF thinks they're full of shit. I'm just not into the food court gangsta shtick a lot of posters try to pull over there. Except that Spenser dude. He seems legit, with honest opinions and doesn't even get into the fray.


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## fattrav (Feb 21, 2009)

Nose Dradamous said:


> See you in Denver Kevin. Stoked to* meat* you.


Careful Nivek, make sure you ask for a reach around or take some lube & protection or something, as I think some ones wants to show you more than there antiquated binders...


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## phony_stark (Jul 2, 2011)

Nivek said:


> Well, the last time I rode Forces was 2009's. And rode 07's. That is where my opinion that they haven't changed came from. To me they did not feel different. I have ridden them, and I also have 10 years and over 50 days just last season of riding. I obsess over gear, I plan to design boards and for years intended to design bindings. I studied physics and mechanical engineering in college. This stuff makes sense to me.


And I think that this is fabulous, based on your reviews and most of your opinions you should have an outstanding career (no sarcasm). 

However, you still haven't ridden a force in three years and, because of this, have no experience with the new strap. You also didn't take into account that enigma may not have been in these clamps ever. Your opinion the bindings not changing (even if incorrect) "therefore they're wack" is irrelevant if no one, particularly the guy posting, knows your experiences with how they worked, or didn't work, for you.

This was in direct contrast to what buggravy posted, which attempted to answer the question. There was nothing constructive or useful about what you had to say. Which is fucking rare. Your review on the Green Machine was perfect and matched up with my impressions of it (except I can only do crappy butters and basic airs), I hope you take Johan up on his offer.

@jdang - I'm willing to put cash money down that Johan likes Capita just as much as he likes Union , he may even like the Charlie Slasher would tell you all about it if you ask, there may even be a VIDEO of him talking about Chuck.

DOUBLE SPOILER - There's a reason why some of the EL members are so knowledgeable about Burton 


All kidding aside, I actually think both boards EL and this one, do a pretty decent job of representing all brands or at least someone to answer your questions as best they can about a particular product, every board seems to lean a certain way, but that's just the way it is. While I think the majority of regulars at EL are more experienced riders who have opinions that are valuable to me, I do not discount a Nivek or SnowWolf(when he used to post) if they have something to say.


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## jdang307 (Feb 6, 2011)

I know that, but he's in here pushing Union, with his ass in the air it stinks. He might love Coal too, I get it. 

Don't care much for other people's knowledge about Burton. I can walk into ... well anywhere and get a hold of that stuff. I like learning about the more unique smaller stuff. That's just me. No beef against Burton. I'll ride anything I don't care. I keep hearing Burton Cartels are the shit, so I'll check those out. Don't care what members on a forum think about that.

I notice a lot more "hate" on EL than here. Look at when Wiredsport mentioned flows in a thread they attempted to rip him, but he maintained his composure. Wiredsport is such a great poster around here always trying to help anyone. That happens here too, but you see it more universally over there. At least here you'll find proponents of every brand, even Union. More experienced riders, cool, I'll look to them when asking how to be more experienced. Gear? Give me a gear head. The guy jumping off 50 foot jumps does me no good. I don't do 50 foot jumps. The guy who just went through his 4th year using the gear I want to use, give me his opinion for gear. You only have to be slightly better than the next guy to be an expert to him. But it doesn't matter, I'm on the internet and if there is good info at EL I'll be there reading.

I'm an information whore I seek it out wherever. Some good threads over there I've read all the way through. Just when I see holier than thou stuff I'm like dude, you're arguing one forum is superior than the other. Do that in real life and not get laughed at. Then I'll be impressed

I understand brand devotion due to great experiences, but brand devotion ... meh I'll use whatever brand is best that day. Except Union. Now.


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## cjcameron11 (Feb 5, 2011)

if it is any help to anyone, my wife who is still a beginner has the 2012 union flites and hates the toe strap ratchet, after she cranks it down she finds it really difficult to undo the strap, i have also tried cos i thought she was just being a sook and not trying hard but i also found that you needed to use quite alot of power to undo the ratchet. Anyway i dont know if the forces have the same ratchets but thats my info, she is seriously considering taking them back for some K2's


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## Leo (Nov 24, 2009)

I agree with most of what Tekniq said, but I disagree that you should give more skilled riders more weight. The reason being, I can't relate to a pro-level rider. I'm not sending myself off booters or doing Travis Rice cliff drops. That is why when I do my reviews, I let it be known that I'm just a normal rider with a lot to learn still. I think the weight should go to people who ride similar to yourself.

Of course, any weight should only go to those who are knowledgeable with gear, meaning they demo their fair share. But in the grand spectrum of things, reviews should not be the sole reason of a purchase. Unless you see consistency across reviews. Say everyone is saying the same exact negatives or positives about a gear, then you can logically assume that it will be the case for you as well.

I also take pro rider's gear opinions with a grain of salt. They have endorsements and besides, they can ride on your front door strapped by rubber bands and still kill shit.

I already talked to Johan through our work emails and hopefully things got squashed. He offered me beer too lol. I think he's trying to get us drunk. I meant what I said Johan, my animosity was not meant to be directed at Union. I admit my review on the Forces was harsh, but I was LOLUMAD about the binding threads that degraded into flame wars due to Union supporters here.

Dano: The 2012 Cartels are sweet. They are lighter and I love the highbacks now. I found previous Cartels to be a little aggressive in the forward lean department. The '12 model comes with 0 forward lean (adjustable). I found the Cartels to be a little more forgiving this year as well. Overall, I definitely wouldn't mind a pair. Still not a fan of their toe caps, but they hold up. Still the best ratchets IMO in the biz.


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## buggravy (Feb 19, 2008)

cjcameron11 said:


> if it is any help to anyone, my wife who is still a beginner has the 2012 union flites and hates the toe strap ratchet, after she cranks it down she finds it really difficult to undo the strap, i have also tried cos i thought she was just being a sook and not trying hard but i also found that you needed to use quite alot of power to undo the ratchet. Anyway i dont know if the forces have the same ratchets but thats my info, she is seriously considering taking them back for some K2's


All of my Forces were like that when new. I thought it was mildly annoying, but nothing serious. I found that after a couple of days of break-in, that stickiness with the ratchets dissipated.


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## tekniq33 (Mar 18, 2009)

Leo, has a good point. I wonder what some pros even know about their gear. They can ride everything and have more to obsess over (getting the shot, heli, sponsors, etc) than we do, so I often think the avg forum geek is more of a gear head than a pro rider. 

Pretty much all of EL hates on Angry. I am surprised by some of the stuff he gives negative reviews, but I still pay attention his opinion because once you know what he likes and doesn't you have a point of reference. Since he rides EVERYTHING you can make comparisons. 

Dano, I like a little forward lean so the Cartels from last year were great from me, but what Leo said is true. More mellow lean this season. I really like the reflex baseplate on both channel and standard boards. gives a great board feel and nice flex but can still have a good responsive highback.


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## CheeseForSteeze (May 11, 2011)

tekniq33 said:


> I hated on Burton (like many on this forum) for basically no reason. I now think they make the best bindings out there, which is probably why they are ridden by most pros without binding sponsors. Many people on here hate on Union, I am not going to say whether or not they are justified and based on experience but I am sure some of it is due to group think. I think the same about EL and their somewhat blind hate on Never Summer.


You know, it's funny you say this because I would say I was/am the same way. I still think Burton, along with Mervin (especially Lib-Tech), are completely overpriced compared to what you can get with other brands like Signal, Flow, Bataelon, TechNine, Stepchild etc. for boards. But I've come around to Burton bindings. You are right, they are very bombproof, do all the basic things a binding should do very well well instead of focusing on features. I agree that when it comes to design, simplicity rules because it allows for burlier gear which is what we need our bindings to be first and foremost. Living Hinge and ReFLEX are also some very cool tech that simultaneously add functionality, don't add complexity, and in some ways reduce it.

Rome, Ride/K2 make some great bindings, but overall each binding they offer I feel like there is some small element missing that Burton has dialed.

I'm not sold on Union. Their baseplates, heel loops and highbacks are good, but I think they need to improve their straps, ratchets and durability of non-chassis materials. If the Contact was a beefier binding, I would have kept mine.


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## tekniq33 (Mar 18, 2009)

Oh one more thing. For people who think the Force has not changed at all (which Johan has proven untrue),check out the Atlas. It is the next gen Force. Serves the same rider but with some increased and updated tech. 
Also, a lot of the other bindings which change year to year are more just for the looks which they change just for the hell of it and to sell more units. With Union at least you don't get stuck into an Apple buyers remorse where as soon as you buy something it completely changes right after.


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## tekniq33 (Mar 18, 2009)

A good thing to take away from this thread is that if you have ability to try new things go for it. Like I said, I loved Ride bindings but once I strapped in to the 390s I found the ankle strap to be more comfortable, have a little more board feel and toe straps on par with if not better than Rides (which I still love).

The more you try the better idea you will have of what works for you and what you are looking for. For example I am realizing I want to move away from a super damp ride (CADs with a Premier) and get something a little more lively and responsive.


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## kctahoe (Nov 14, 2010)

cjcameron11 said:


> if it is any help to anyone, my wife who is still a beginner has the 2012 union flites and hates the toe strap ratchet, after she cranks it down she finds it really difficult to undo the strap, i have also tried cos i thought she was just being a sook and not trying hard but i also found that you needed to use quite alot of power to undo the ratchet. Anyway i dont know if the forces have the same ratchets but thats my info, she is seriously considering taking them back for some K2's


I have the 2011 forces and have noticed also the rachets are hard to get done, becomes a pain after awhile, and my toestrap also ends up riding up on the boot, but never had any problems with comfort. Also what's this EL site everybodys talking about?


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## B.Gilly (Jul 23, 2008)

EL is Easy Loungin.
EasyLoungin ? EasyLoungin


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## Alexst (Sep 7, 2011)

Good thread, I have read way more reveiws for the Union Force binding than against but there is mention of this pesky toe strap!

To clarify was it the demo 2012 strap that was rubbish and then amended for the production model, or is the 2011 toe strap equally bad, as I am looking at a set of new Union Force 2011 bindings in white in a shop near me.

I have also read that with boots like ThirtyTwo as I have (JP Walker Prospects) that the toe strap is absolutely fine its just with the smaller boots its an issue, I have size 11's and about to purchace a wide 159 board.


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## Leo (Nov 24, 2009)

Toe strap issues have been around for a while now. They redesigned it for 2012 and the pre-production ones received some negative reviews as well. Union has since retweaked the 2012 strap and toe ratchet again for the production model.

Since you are purchasing them in a shop, make sure to bring your boots and have the employee help you with fit.


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## CheeseForSteeze (May 11, 2011)

My shop had the Atlas, Force/Asadachi and Contact Pro in for 2012. The production Toe Strap is ok, but they still need to look at designs like Ride, Rome and K2 or TechNine Burton. Ride, Rome and K2 have figured out that a minimalist toe cap is still plenty strong but will better conform to the boot. TechNine and Burton have figured out that if you want a full material strap, to pre-conform it to the shape of a typical toe boot and the tension will create enough surface grip so there aren't pressure points.

What they've done with their Toe Straps are like Raiden bindings with the flex window, but they still have too much material where don't conform to the toe as well as they could. Raiden 2011 has a little less material so they work a little better.

Sick colorways though this year for the Atlas and Contact and the Contact Pro isn't bad.


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## Alexst (Sep 7, 2011)

So is the toe strap in production on the union force ok then? Any one used it with the revised toe strap.


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## Alexst (Sep 7, 2011)

So is the 2012 revised strap better then. Any one used them?


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## Justin (Jun 2, 2010)

Alexst said:


> Good thread, I have read way more reveiws for the Union Force binding than against but there is mention of this pesky toe strap!
> 
> To clarify was it the demo 2012 strap that was rubbish and then amended for the production model, or is the 2011 toe strap equally bad, as I am looking at a set of new Union Force 2011 bindings in white in a shop near me.
> 
> I have also read that with boots like ThirtyTwo as I have (JP Walker Prospects) that the toe strap is absolutely fine its just with the smaller boots its an issue, I have size 11's and about to purchace a wide 159 board.


if u r buying from a shop can't you just bring your boots in and see if they work with your boots?


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## phony_stark (Jul 2, 2011)

I was so busy bitching and moaning, I forgot to at least attempt to answer the question or put in my two cents. #hypocrite 

The new toestrap iscored out like the DLX but was really big in pre-production models. It's smaller now and, while still a little bigger than the Flite/DLX toestrap, should fit similarly. I LOOOOVE my DLX straps and, when I wore burton boots, would put them on my forces and contacts. 

I'm assuming that, if it's between the pre-pro and the DLX/Flite, it should be an awesome strap and everyone should be pretty happy with it. I (and I assume some others on this board) will have more details when I get my Atlases.


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## phony_stark (Jul 2, 2011)

CheeseForSteeze said:


> My shop had the Atlas, Force/Asadachi and Contact Pro in for 2012. The production Toe Strap is ok, but they still need to look at designs like Ride, Rome and K2 or TechNine Burton. Ride, Rome and K2 have figured out that a minimalist toe cap is still plenty strong but will better conform to the boot. TechNine and Burton have figured out that if you want a full material strap, to pre-conform it to the shape of a typical toe boot and the tension will create enough surface grip so there aren't pressure points.
> 
> What they've done with their Toe Straps are like Raiden bindings with the flex window, but they still have too much material where don't conform to the toe as well as they could. Raiden 2011 has a little less material so they work a little better.
> 
> Sick colorways though this year for the Atlas and Contact and the Contact Pro isn't bad.


They can't. There's a patent on that kind of toecap, and it costs money to get it. 
I'm not sure if this is still the case, but this is why they have gone through different designs.


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## Alexst (Sep 7, 2011)

When I say near I suppose I meant the uk! It's about a 4 hour drive from me. Looked at the K2 Auto Ever 2012 but they are £190 compared with 2011 union force in White at £135 and the 2012 model at £175. Considered burton mission and cartels to. Maybe I should save the penies and go for the K2's not sure yet. Going on a 159w Atomic Alibi 2010 board. Will be mainly for grommers and powder with very little park just some jumps probably.


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## CheeseForSteeze (May 11, 2011)

phony_stark said:


> They can't. There's a patent on that kind of toecap, and it costs money to get it.
> I'm not sure if this is still the case, but this is why they have gone through different designs.


The then need to figure out how to get in on the patent w/ Burton/TechNine or do what K2, Ride and Rome are doing and develop a minimalist toe strap that emphasizes conformance to the boot over bulky strength.

The point isn't that they have to have a design like Burton/TechNine, but they need to figure out something better than what they are working with. Other companies have gone other routes and found methods that work. Even Raiden has done a better job at developing the windowed strap than Union.


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## TsEthan (Feb 3, 2010)

Cant it just fuckin snow already?


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## Nivek (Jan 24, 2008)

EL is the leftovers of the Burton Lounge forum's disbandment with some C3 wigs thrown in. I spent some time over there last season and got very little out of it. They represent Burton, CAPiTA, Airblaster, Analog, and Union like they're candy. Its ridiculous. Some help was given, dealing with Parker went well he helped me with pant size, but other that it felt as though as a newcomer they didn't pay much attention to you. Asked about the Signal Park before I got on it and I didn't even get any speculation posts. Not a single response to be had. Even rumors come up here... They're mostly desk jockeys or company reps.


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