# snowolf - how NOT to do skidded turns on ice



## firstx1017 (Jan 10, 2011)

Okay, I am thoroughly ready to give up!!! No matter how hard I tried I could not do ANYTHING except skidded turns this weekend. It was really icy, nearly fell about a dozen times and just could not follow through with my board on turns. Are there certain conditions where you can only board like you are saying I should try to do to begin to scarve? When all that is available is a thin blown layer over ice, how do you NOT skid in those conditions? I was just so frustrated I told my husband let's go home! 

3 11 12 - YouTube


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## cocolulu (Jan 21, 2011)

My 2 cents:

What you're doing looks good, and nothing is wrong with skidded turns or scarving. I do think some terrain is better for carving than others, while skidding/scarving is more widely useful.

That said, groomed runs/groomed hardpack is really good terrain for carving. If it's too icy, that's not good (since your board will slip), but if it's just a little softer, it can be great for carving.

I think one issue is that when you learn to carve, you have to be patient with the turn. You let the sidecut of board turn you, and you make these gradual S turns. I think when you carve, you get on an edge, get the appropriate balance, and let the sidecut do the turning. You're doing great linking turns, but if you watch your video, you can probably see that your board makes these sharp direction switches. It's like zig-zagging rather than S turns.

Also, it's definitely good to learn to carve on terrain that's easier for you... some kind of run where you can get good speed, and are not afraid to point the board straight downhill. Carving/S-turns, you will need to have your board pointed downhill longer than with skidded turns.... at least until you learn to get faster edge to edge.


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## HoboMaster (May 16, 2010)

I'll just go ahead and say the last thing I try to do on super icy surfaces is carve... as soon as I get up on my edge at anything over a minor angle my board just wants to kick out. If the conditions were really bad - it's hard to tell from the video because I do see that decent layer on top, mellow skidded turns might have been the best thing.

Your turn initiations were great, I could just see you weren't leaning very hard into your turns probably due to the icyness. Bad conditions suck and have to be ridden accordingly no matter how good you are, so don't get too discouraged.


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## IdahoFreshies (Jul 9, 2011)

unless you are riding great conditions on the right terrain you cant help but "skid", you cant expect to leave that pencil line in the snow every time you go out and ride any terrain, hell i do some sort of skid almost all the time just because i ride terrain that isnt conducive to true carving. When you are on solid ice all you can do is crouch down low, and slide sideways praying to god you dont wash out. i rode some pretty bad ice the other night after the sun went down, and i gotta say it was fairly scary and just not any fun. every time i would get going and try to slow down again i would just start sliding unpredictably so i squated low and started swearing to my self. at one point i plowed right into my friend because i couldnt stop in time, it was still pretty funny. it didnt help that i had my detuned park board either, bu oh well. basically i said that if this is what the east coast people got all winter i would shoot myself in the foot so i didnt have to ride it.


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## wrathfuldeity (Oct 5, 2007)

Vicki you were doing just fine...it was a scarving day...you could hear the ice on the vid. There were some folks in the vid that blew past and quickly disappeared....they were closer to carving. But you are not yet comfortable with going that fast...so you scarve...nothing wrong with that...you were clearly in control. You appeared abit uneasy thus rushed the turns and kicked out the rear foot a bit. 

Ime perfect carves are hard to come by because you need perfect slope/terrain that is matched for your skill level, that is smooth, with great snow, good visability and nobody in the way; this past Saturday, 2 skier buds and I had three laps late in the day where this occured...the best carving laps so far this year.


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## Raines (May 1, 2011)

i am not a pro but my opinion here is the problem is not you of course


With this kind of terrain you cant carve as easy as other type of snow.

Its all a balance of speed and direction.

Here you can go faster and carve or you can go that speed but put the board more strait... smaller turns and keep the board more to the front


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## bseracka (Nov 14, 2011)

This may not apply, but it looks like you're not really getting a steep angle to get up on edge with your turns to initiate the carve. From my perspective you need to get more pressure (weight) onto your edges by getting up on your toes and heels. Bodywise you would want to be really leaning toward the mt and edge you are trying to carve on. In the video you seem to be leaning away from the edge you are turning on.


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## Argo (Feb 25, 2010)

Video is deceiving but it looks like you may still have the fear of the speed you would gain by carving in those packed conditions, keep riding and you will get used to it. Those were more groomed hard pack than ice from what the video looks like. When you get more experience you will be able to carve on that surface and you will have to have a higher edge angle than what your using too.

You look like your doing good. My wife is at a similar stage of riding....


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## JamesX (Feb 26, 2012)

I am a newbie  so take my advice with skepticism.

I also tried to work on my dynamic turns last weekend. Spent the whole weekend up at Snow Summit. Temperature is around 58 degrees, so it is patches of slush that turns to ice in late afternoon. 

You seem to have the same problem that I have with the tendency of not angling the board enough when turning and results in having to slightly rudder the board. My problem is that I have the lazy toe, e.g. that I do not engage my toes enough and not bending my knees enough. Once I figured that out and started aggressively flexing my knees my turns became a lot tighter and I don't skid as much.

But I am a newbie  So I might just be completely wrong in regards to you.


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## firstx1017 (Jan 10, 2011)

I guess I'm just not sure how you should ride in certain terrain. I was watching people on the chairlifts and they ALL seemed to be skidding their turns - only saw a few with a pencil line and they were just plain bombing - something I just will not ever want to do. But then just because "everyone" is doing it, doesn't mean they are doing it correctly either. It didn't show in these videos but most of the times I hit an ice spot was on my toe edge - so of course, after that I get very panicky going to my toe edge and thus trying to lean more and get higher on that edge just plain freaks me out. I haven't been in any great conditions this year where there is some snow for you to dig into and make those great turns trying to "scarve" it seems.

So, when it is hard packed groomed like that and makes that awful icy noise, do you just point your board straight down the mountain with quick heel edge turns? Guess I just need to know how to ride in these conditions. 

Because of the hard packed I didn't even want to venture anything harder cause with the wind blowing the snow was blowing off and you were left with just ice. Didn't even stay long enough to see if it would soften up.... :-(


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## mixie (Mar 29, 2011)

Part of getting better is learning what you can do in various conditions and to adjust your riding and expectations accordingly. And learning how to recognize those conditions while you're on the chairlift by watching other riders and looking at the snow. I was at Snow Summit last Tuesday it's crappy out there for sure. It's why most people are in the park. When it is hard packed I either go in the park or to the bar. 

No comments on the riding as it looks good to me. As a fellow Socal resident I will comment on how DEPRESSING it is to see those BROWN mountains. 


Mammoth is due to get some snow, if you can make it up there you should.


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## Junglizste (Mar 5, 2012)

Looks like you just need to commit to the carve a little more. The conditions, while not optimal, looked like you should have been able to grab an edge. If your board is really soft or really rockered this might not be easy, but with a little more hump and dump in your initiation you should be ok.


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## cocolulu (Jan 21, 2011)

Vicky, don't be so hard on yourself! The reason you don't see people carving is partially because it's not easy. If the terrain is hard and granular, it can be really hard to carve. I don't think the surface was 'icy' on that day (ice patches are kind of dark), but it's hard to tell from a video.

Similarly, if it's too powdery, the loose snow gives away under your board, so you're usually floating. It's also harder to carve on bumpy, ungroomed terrain, but it looks like the run you were on was groomed corduroy.

If you watch this video: CASI Level 2 Standards 2010 - YouTube, you will see some *really* good people carving. Notice how their board turns relatively gradually, and the board spend more time pointed downhill. Now compare to your video... you're kind of sharply turning the board one direction, then another. The board is kind of being flipped left and right rather than being ridden on the edge, and it spends little time pointed downhill.

In the carving video, watch how the snowboarders really get their board on an edge, and let the edge guide their direction. Watch their knees and posture... 

But really, don't be so hard on yourself. Carving is an intermediate/advanced skill, and it's an aggressive way of riding down runs. It's kind of a finesse skill though... like the 'proper' way of using eating utensils. Don't get too caught up in being 'proper' if it ruins your fun. As you probably noticed, a lot of people *don't* carve.

That said, carving is *amazing* fun. It's best to try it on green terrain that you feel comfortable taking aggressively, and once you get it, try moving it to blues.


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## t21 (Dec 29, 2010)

i think were you are right now(skill level) and the condition the terrain is you are just fine.you mentioned "nearly fell a dozen times" but the good thing is you did not.for what you and us have seen on the video some of the boarders passing by were not really carving just going faster on a more straighter line, so what! your learning how to carve and your not comfortable yet on speed so your ok. ice is not really our friend unless you got some type of magnetraction on your edges,if i would run on to some ice patches i just squat down lower and not do any quick turns.i slowly go to my heel edge if i can and slow down.honestly your scarving that day was "recipe of the day". though you where frustrated,we also get those days that its just not working out.come back next time and try again.one thing though,do not be too hard on yourself,enjoy your time out there.


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## wrathfuldeity (Oct 5, 2007)

firstx1017 said:


> I guess I'm just not sure how you should ride in certain terrain. I was watching people on the chairlifts and they ALL seemed to be skidding their turns - only saw a few with a pencil line and they were just plain bombing - something I just will not ever want to do.
> So, when it is hard packed groomed like that and makes that awful icy noise, do you just point your board straight down the mountain with quick heel edge turns? Guess I just need to know how to ride in these conditions.


The run did look hard packed with enough give to carve...evidenced by a few that were bombing/carving pencil lines and as noted carving on those snow conditions is an advanced skill that requires being comfortable at bombing speeds. 

Btw loosing it at those speeds is not generally not that big of deal...often you are already relatively close to the ground and the trick is to just slide to burn off some speed...and hopefully not crash into anything or one. The thing to be aware of is to keep your board in the air till you slow down; cause if don't it will catch and send you flying/flipping and/or jam/rip up some joints which is alot worse than just some soft tissue bruising or rash from sliding.


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## NoirX252 (Aug 1, 2009)

Hey, Are you the 50 something year old woman who took up snowboarding for the first time last year? GREAT progress :thumbsup:

Don't give up. Good technique takes you everywhere. You can absolutely carve a snowboard on steep icy slopes (pencil line, linked c-shape turns, speed controlled to desired levels)

Just edited this post for the zilionth time.

--> Listen to snowwolf. Despite having knowledge, conveying concepts to a student is extremely hard. Snowwolf is very good at this. He will probably not give you incorrect information either. Something I've seen while reading through these responses...

Ice is a GREAT opportunity to hone technique/stance setup. I love ice!!!


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## firstx1017 (Jan 10, 2011)

CASI Level 2 Standards 2010 - YouTube, 

Okay, this video helped and I see what others have said that I am not letting my board point downhill to engage on the edge. I think I was doing better two weeks ago, but the icy conditions this past weekend set me back. I see what I should be doing - on the above video the long lazy s-turns is what I am striving for. At my age all I want to do is easily go down the hills - not interested in speed. The hardest part is that in seeing the carving videos you really have to bend your knees on your toe edge and I think that is going to be my major issue. I already have a very bad right knee and bending causes a lot of pain - so I am beginning to think that if I can just get to s-turns on a higher edge will be where I want to end up. 

I can tell that yesterdays turns were more z-like turns and I was just afraid that if I didn't do z-like turns I would NEVER stop slidding. 

Thanks for the comments and I will try again this weekend! Wish me luck!

Here's a video from 2 weeks ago when the conditions were better and I was trying to practice leaning per snowolfs advice. Couldn't do this last weekend....


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## NoirX252 (Aug 1, 2009)

In advanced skidded/carved turns, you do not wait for your board to point downhill, you immediately engage the downhill edge. 

Extreme case: low aggressive carve, you would actually be carving the start of the turn inverted.. upside down.... especially on a steep pitch

Working the top of the turn lets you control speed, skidded or carved.

Waiting for the board to point downhill before engaging edge will lead to speed buildup.

Just listen to snow wolf.

PS: didn't watch the video, but based on the explanations. (I've seen the video before but am not watching it now)

they are keeping it pointed downhill cause they want it to. Either cause they don't mind the speed build up.. or the conditions are slow, or they are digging into the pack hard enough to control speed via edge penetration depth.

There are 3 ways to control speed.

1. skidding
2. turn shape
3. how deep you dig the edge in... (if you are an advanced rider, you can dig into frozen granular very deeply on a carve and slow down)



firstx1017 said:


> CASI Level 2 Standards 2010 - YouTube,
> 
> Okay, this video helped and I see what others have said that I am not letting my board point downhill to engage on the edge. I think I was doing better two weeks ago, but the icy conditions this past weekend set me back. I see what I should be doing - on the above video the long lazy s-turns is what I am striving for. At my age all I want to do is easily go down the hills - not interested in speed. The hardest part is that in seeing the carving videos you really have to bend your knees on your toe edge and I think that is going to be my major issue. I already have a very bad right knee and bending causes a lot of pain - so I am beginning to think that if I can just get to s-turns on a higher edge will be where I want to end up.
> 
> ...


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## firstx1017 (Jan 10, 2011)

Snowolf - so icy conditions with my knee problems what I was doing was okay I take it for that particular day? I agree the fast dynamic turns wouldn't suit my knee problems - when watching the sample video cocolulu provided just seeing how far bent and with almost all weight on his knees while on toeside just made my knee hurt WATCHING that! lol When the conditions are a little better like the weekend I was practicing turns - that's when I will try to practice more - it seems like last weekend I was just in survival mode and wasn't sure how to ride the terrain.

I'd rather work on higher edge angles (if I can EVER get there! lol) while on softer snow - not ice. And also try not to pivot the board and ride thru the and complete my turns. Next time it is like it was Sunday I will work on trying to keep the board down the fall line with low edge angles.

They are expecting snow this weekend - probably only an inch or two, but better than nothing. Thanks again!


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## bseracka (Nov 14, 2011)

Snowolf- would riser plates help here with someone with rom issues? In my mind I'm seeing the extra leverage as a method to get around the rom issue and still be able to get a greater edge angle.


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## firstx1017 (Jan 10, 2011)

lol @ snowolf - okay, I read over your post three times and all I can think of is, "how will this old lady *remember* ALL THAT???" 

If I can just conquer the leaning and big S-turns and try to get higher on my edge I will consider my snowboarding a success as that seems low impact yet enough to have fun. At this age and with my sore knee - after 4 hours I have to go back to the condo and ice it and it really is painful, the next day I can usually only handle 2 hours and I'm done - carving just isn't going to be on my "bucket list" - nor is "bombing" down a hill! lol 

My goal when I started was to just get down any blue run without freaking out and it being "fun" and to be relaxed and not tense.  

We have three more weekends before the lease is up on the condo and then I will have to continue this drama next year! 

I just want to make the most out of these next few years before knee replacement turns into my reality. 

Thanks Snowolf!
Vicki


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## wrathfuldeity (Oct 5, 2007)

firstx1017 said:


> lol @ snowolf - okay, I read over your post three times and all I can think of is, "how will this old lady *remember* ALL THAT???"
> 
> If I can just conquer the leaning and big S-turns and try to get higher on my edge I will consider my snowboarding a success as that seems low impact yet enough to have fun. At this age and with my sore knee - after 4 hours I have to go back to the condo and ice it and it really is painful, the next day I can usually only handle 2 hours and I'm done - carving just isn't going to be on my "bucket list" - nor is "bombing" down a hill! lol
> 
> ...


vicki, get a new knee in 3 weeks and then get it in shape for next winter...one of my ski buds had both knees done 2 years ago and he's doing great.


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## mixie (Mar 29, 2011)

^^^What he said. I got 2 guy friends over 50 with new knees. They kick serious ass at both biking and running and race triathlons as a hobby (!) I'm facing a similar choice myself--Have my hip resurfaced with in a year a two or face full replacement in 5-10 years... Im rapidly approaching 40 but I've been doing sports and other dumb shit since I was a child and have the wear and tear to prove it... Advil in the morning. Ice at night. It's just how it goes. I'm hoping modern medicine will come thru for me :laugh:

This weekend will be a lot better. Big Bear should be getting some snow this weekend. It's about time! enjoy!


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## srdeo (Jan 29, 2012)

Also try to get a damper board, i think it should help with knees. And it will be better on ice.
Something like frostbite edges (burton) can help on ice also

But i think riding on icy condition is like driving a car thru loose conditions like they do in rally cars.
Rally cars slide (drift) their turns because it gives them most control. If you are already sliding you dont loose much control when it slides little more. Worst moment is when you are locked in a carving turn and loose grip all of sudden. 

I think you can also trying to switch edges little slower. Transition seems too quick (more like kicking to change direction). You seem to be much smoother with the transition in the old video. It's like driving on ice or snow. When you change lane you have to it more gradual if you do it too quick you lose control. 

Also board has to line up more with the direction you are moving.
Think of it as your board is always straight (kind of like bombing down the hill... it point to direction you want to go). in carving turns, Board edge angle combinded with board flex and side cut make the board turn. At same side cut more angle+ more board flex means tighter turns. There really is no steering, you steer thru board flex and side cut (reason why stiffer board are easier to carve). Not by kicking your back foot or not by lifting back foot and moving it over (twisting).

Also try to make bigger/wider turns (more traversing). Your whole turn (from apex of heelside turn to apex of toeside) is about 20ft wide. To carve that tight you would be draggin your elbows on the snow. You need more grip(better snow condition) to make tigher turns so making bigger turn will help you in carving. 

If you know someone who can carve really well ask them to make slow wide carving turns and follow them. You will learn where to initiate turns, what to do in the turn, where to get out of the turn, when to switch edge etc. You will realize it is completely different from skidded turn. 

Risers can help if you already know how to carving, i dont think it will make someone carve all of sudden. You first have to learn to use your edges first. 
In your case, riser may help with your knees since alot of them provide dampening. Dampness of a board is like having shock absorber in your car. If there is nothing to absorb the bumps your back is probably going to be real sore after driving.

Don't discourage yourself too much. I think you are doing really good for someone with one year of riding.
If it was easy, it would not be as fun to learn.


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## Casual (Feb 9, 2011)

Hi Vicky,

Let me give you a few tips that I have not seen in this thread yet. Firstly, I was unable to watch the video but I get the point from what others said. I've been riding for 24 years in every condition and terrain imaginable and let me tell you this... Ice sucks, simple as that. I personally ride a lot of park, so my edges are as dull as they come, so when it comes to ice I have no chance but my tactic is to bomb, not advisable to new riders or the weak of heart. Here are my suggestions:

1. If you ride a lot of icey conditions, make sure you have sharp edges. Just be very careful not to hook them on hardpack when your getting too relaxed (always get your toes/heels off the ground so you dont catch)

2. Stay off the middle of the run. When it starts getting icy, its usually much worse in the middle of the run, 95% of the riders fly down the middle. If you move over to the tree line I bet you can find some nice snow (it all gets kicked over there) and it might not even be icy at all.

3. try some runs that are not as busy. Ice is more often found on the busier runs, so the less travelled paths might be in better condition.

4. Do not get discouraged, just do your best and know that you will be that much better on the next snowday!

good luck!!


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## Intheshit (Jan 8, 2012)

that is hard packed granular where I am from, not ice.

you need to use the entire surface area of your board. That means pressuring the tip and tail using the outsides of your feet and your knees. (press outwards)

also, you need to steer through your turns. Your timing is off. You are rotating fast and washing out the majority of your turn. There needs to be a happy medium between the rotation and the wash so that you are actually changing direction while rotating.

maybe think about yourself going down the hill and not just being on the hill. for example, my turn is a hook in front of me, i see exactly where i want to go the entire time. This is different from simply performing the motions that keep you on top of the board. Put more pressure on your leading leg, as a teacher i would not even care if you were doing it way wrong so long as you got used to steering with your front hip.

practice riding around with your lead leg bent and your back leg more or less straight, that should line you up with the slope of the hill and give you some shape to your turns

--not to mention a work out.


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## XR4Ti (Dec 12, 2009)

I spent a whole day at the hill this year practicing riding switch, right from skating/chairlifts to bombing/carving so I spent some time recalling the thought processes when I was first learning to ride.

Not saying this will work for you, but it did for me when I was in the "get lots of mileage in now" stage. If you look at really good carving technique (lots easier in vids nowadays) or the tracks left in the snow, you will notice something instructors never cover. That is, to get on your opposite edge well in advance of your turn (ok, in reality you are carrying lots of speed and beginning your turn much earlier, but that's not the way it looks/feels when you are first getting into it).

Once you have advanced to the point you are at now, to get further, don't ride to the end of the traverse, go flat to point down the hill, and then get on the edge. Basically, halfway through your traverse, get on that opposite edge. You will continue to traverse, and then initiate your turn. People call it stuff like "being more aggressive" with your speed or approach and "commitment", but really that's all it is.

There's other subtleties like less traverse, more down, and that the edge change is really when the turn begins but I find the simpler, the better. Think about getting on that opposite edge, and then you can turn as aggressively or passively as you like.

As I say, this worked for me to get my body to do what my brain wanted. Don't know if it will work for anyone else but I figured I'd pass it along.


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