# Sticky  Safety Topic: Tree Wells



## AIRider

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0jvEYzh_1Sg



I'm sure I'll adventure into some trees this season, but this scares me.


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## CMSbored

Yeah, scary shit. thats why you always need to ride with a partner and look out for each other. dont lose sight of one another.


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## Momento

Kinda ironic that he said "its pretty dramatic... enjoy" Kinda scary that the dude could slip father away. But then again it think its natural you want too move yourself free. Good thing the guy said stop moving etc.


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## wrathfuldeity

Having been in a couple of tree wells, one upside down and one right side up. It happens really fast and even if you have a split second to react, those holes suck you in; it can happen several days after a big dump and its really disorienting. When I was upside down, I did not know it at first, you can't tell by the light and you body is generally suspended...so its natural to wiggle around to see if you can get yourself out, but as the snow is caving in around you, you are already breathing hard, choking on pow, you heat up instantly and easily panic...especially if you don't know if anyone knows you are there. When I was right side up, I was hiking out of a biff, waist deep and hit a bridged tree/hole...completely buried tree and fell through to my neck and luckily was able to get my board under my arms to prevent sinking deeper and eventually able to pack enough snow under me to wiggle out of the hole. When its those conditions you learn to keep a healthy distance from anything that might look like a tree well.


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## NWBoarder

Tree wells are no joke. As Snowolf pointed out, I learned the hard way, but was lucky cause I fell in feet first. There really was no way to tell that the snow was going to give out. It happened in a split second. I truly believe that had he not heard me, I would have spent a very cold night stuck in the snow. After being in one feet first, I would hate to find out what head first feels like. Wrath, you're lucky to be here and would guess that riding with a partner is what kept you around. I still ride in the trees, but I do it a little more cautiously now.


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## wrathfuldeity

I was riding by myself, 50 ft in the trees off the groomer, half upside down, managed to grab some branches to prevent going under further, had a hell of a time getting the first foot unbuckled...so then sideways in the hole. It is exhausting crawling out of a hole.


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## NWBoarder

Damn, you're quite a bit of lucky on that one Wrath. And yes, crawling out of a hole is quite the task. I had a hell of a time getting out, and that was with Snowolf's help.


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## wvbms

Snowolf said:


> I ride trees solo a lot, but stay away from anything that looks like a small tree sticking up out of the snow. I try to ride in glades of old growth where all of the branches are way above the snow level and avoid areas that have a lot of second generation and new growth trees.


Good tip, I never knew that. I ride trees solo a lot also and hope to never find this out the hard way. Was this true for you other guys? Was it smaller trees with branches close to the ground?


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## ShredLife

i've been down in a hole by myself before... the most important thing for me was the ability to unstrap my board while upside down and/or covered in snow. that and not hitting my head and losing consciousness. 

also worth mentioning vents. out here all the mountains are volcanoes and i have come over a roller or berm and been swallowed up by a venting hole that went straight down to rock - sharp volcanic rock - not fun! luckily it was only about 5-6 feet deep. core shot for sure tho


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## ShredLife

wvbms said:


> Good tip, I never knew that. I ride trees solo a lot also and hope to never find this out the hard way. Was this true for you other guys? Was it smaller trees with branches close to the ground?


definitely with branches close to the ground. seems to me like trees that are bigger than your average home xmas tree - not as big as the mall tree but maybe as big as the tree at your office or maybe a hospital or something if that makes any sense :laugh:


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## NWBoarder

I have found that it seems to be the trees where only the tops are sticking up. In other words, if you see a tree that looks like it's only a few feet tall, but has no trunk exposed, stay away from it. It's most likely that the rest of the tree is under snow and waiting to swallow up an unsuspecting victim. IMO it's really about being able to see the trunk. Since most of the trees out here in the PNW do not have many low branches, if you can see some trunk bottom, then there is nothing to worry about since the branches are above ground. It's the ones with no trunk that have many branches buried under the snow that kill people, or at the very least, get them incredibly stuck.


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## Donutz

ShredLife said:


> i've been down in a hole by myself before... the most important thing for me was the ability to unstrap my board while upside down and/or covered in snow. that and not hitting my head and losing consciousness.


Hadn't thought about that, but this would be the biggest argument against using Flows or Cinches with this type of riding. Unsnapping the back of the highback would be hellish if you were head-down on your back.


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## AIRider

this could be a good investment.


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## dtshakuras

I've watched the video before and it seemed those people could have gotten the guy out sooner, pretty uncoordinated. This problem isn't common here in the Mid Atlantic since we mostly have artificial snow but tree wells are definitely hazard that needs to be taken seriously by everyone.


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## AIRider

dtshakuras said:


> I've watched the video before and it seemed those people could have gotten the guy out sooner, pretty uncoordinated. This problem isn't common here in the Mid Atlantic since we mostly have artificial snow but tree wells are definitely hazard that needs to be taken seriously by everyone.


true, and that's one of the reasons I posted this here, mainly to get some awareness.


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## jpb3

My sisters ex-boyfriends sister (got that?) died in a tree well @ Mammoth a couple years ago. I do not know particulars as I didn't speak to him directly about it at the time but she and her husband were riding together going down a run that they had both ridden countless times (Mammoth was home MTN) through a glade and when he got to the bottom she never followed. He spent hours waiting/looking for her after notifying ski patrol but they still did not find her later that day, even knowing the run she disappeared on. They were both advanced riders, in bounds, at their home resort. It was later found that she actually hit a buried branch with the nose of her board that made her "go over the handlebars" head first into a deep tree well. She completely disappeared and suffocated. 

Super fkin scary and utterly tragic. She left two young kids behind. RIP

EDIT: found an article about it http://www.ocregister.com/news/snow-237841-ski-deep.html


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## NWBoarder

There was rider out here in WA at Crystal Mountain last season that fell in a tree well and was not found until the summer thaw. They're dangerous. Even in-bounds, they're still there and just as dangerous. The avalung is not a bad idea, but most people would not be wearing that while riding in-bounds, and it's almost always in-bounds that someone falls into a tree well. It was for me, and it was for the poor person that lost his life at Crystal last year. The majority of people just assume that if they are in-bounds, then they are safe.


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## dtshakuras

NWBoarder28 said:


> There was rider out here in WA at Crystal Mountain last season that fell in a tree well and was not found until the summer thaw. They're dangerous. Even in-bounds, they're still there and just as dangerous. The avalung is not a bad idea, but most people would not be wearing that while riding in-bounds, and it's almost always in-bounds that someone falls into a tree well. It was for me, and it was for the poor person that lost his life at Crystal last year. The majority of people just assume that if they are in-bounds, then they are safe.


Do you mean inbounds as in the resort or inbounds of a groomed trail?


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## ThunderChunky

Holy shit, that's scary/ I'm going out west next year and this sheds a lot of light. I always knew about tree wells, but kind of wrote them off and eventually forgot about them because we can still see the grass where I ride. Will definitely pay attention when I'm on trips now. :dunno:


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## Toecutter

Even when I've been in the trees with a friend, we lose sight of one another very easily and if one of us were to fall the other would be way the hell down the hill before long. In deep pow trying to hike back up even a short distance can take forever. Does it provide a false sense of security to think that having a buddy is really all _that_ much safer than riding alone? It seems as if your buddy must be in the right place at the right time to know you fell in and are in need of help.


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## armybpc1985

This was definitely an eye opener for me. I like to ride trees, and I never thought that there was any real danger to it besides slamming into tree. I figured I'm wearing a helmet so I'll be fine. I'll definitely be watching out for these possible tree wells from now on.


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## Toecutter

How long does the average victim survive in a well before finally succumbing? I picture it being only a few (like 3-5) minutes, but does it sometimes drag out longer?


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## AIRider

snowolf, you should sticky this for a few weeks, at least until the season is full underway, so more people read this.


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## armybpc1985

I agree with you. This is good info that hopefully more people will view if it stays up longer. Who knows, maybe this bit of knowledge will save someone's life.


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## marcdeo

Toecutter said:


> How long does the average victim survive in a well before finally succumbing? I picture it being only a few (like 3-5) minutes, but does it sometimes drag out longer?


IF the person fell head first and was 100% immediately suffocated without ANY air (picture a rear naked choke) then yeah, 5 minutes tops. that however is usualy not the case. I would imagine the death to be much more gradual, slow, torturous. Perhaps hanging upside down all night, then eventually dying from hypothermia.


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## marcdeo

Does anyone have any recommendations on the equiptment we should be using re: what brands/where to buy/what to look for/what items/what costs etc etc etc. I am assuming- whistle, shovel, probe...... 
a
that video opened my eyes. Im heading to Revy in January. Glades and la Nina could spell horrible tragedy - I must be prepared.

THANK YOU AGAIN for this thread!


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## AcroPhile

Toecutter said:


> How long does the average victim survive in a well before finally succumbing? I picture it being only a few (like 3-5) minutes, but does it sometimes drag out longer?


I was stuck semi-upside down in a tree well once. Luckily there was a big air cavity by my face so I was able to breathe but getting out was a whole different story. As long as you have room to breathe you have some time. There was a video on the internet and the news last year of a guy that fell into a tree well with a Go-Pro cam or something. He was able to reach into his pocket and use his cell phone to call for help. There are avalanche reports on CAIC's website of avalanche survivors that were buried for hours before being rescued or digging themselves out. So I don't know if you can quantify the average time a person has to survive in a tree well before succumbing. There is a lot of factors at work here, primarily weather or not you are able to breathe and for how long. If you fall into a tree well right next to groomed trail chances are some will see you and be able to help you out quickly. If you're venturing a little further off piste an Ava-Lung many not be a bad idea. People do die inbounds at resorts from tree well incidents.


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## AIRider

marcdeo said:


> Does anyone have any recommendations on the equiptment we should be using re: what brands/where to buy/what to look for/what items/what costs etc etc etc. I am assuming- whistle, shovel, probe......
> a
> that video opened my eyes. Im heading to Revy in January. Glades and la Nina could spell horrible tragedy - I must be prepared.
> 
> THANK YOU AGAIN for this thread!


When I saw that video, I was freaked out as well, an eye opener. 

I just tied up a whistle in my jacket as well, just in case… 

I think the best way to train for such thing, is to actually, purposely fall into one, (with your friends around of course) and try to get yourself out, because practice makes perfect, or at least will make you panic less.


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## Kwanzaa

Snowolf said:


> Inbounds within the ski area boundary. Groomed trails are generally safe from this. But watch for these small trees on the sides of the groomers; several fatal accidents have occurred within a few yards of groomed trails. I had an encounter with a snow bridge at Timberline one night early in the season. To the right of Vicky's Run is a small bluff that makes for a great natural kicker. I hit it hard and launched myself out into what looked like soft deep pow. What it turned out be was a giant snow bridge supported by thick, tangled 3 to 4 foot high pine saplings. I was tangled up in them that it took me forever to get out. I was in sight of the main trail and not more than 20 feet from it. Had I landed on my back, I could have gone in upside down easily.


On mount washing

I've once fallen into a 15 foot hole on the side of a groomer, but still within the runs boundries. It didn't make any sense how or why it was there, it was just a big open hole about 12 foot across 15 feet deep that went down to rock. There was i think 620cm base at that time. I fell into it because i was turning to head into the glades and i followed some ski tracks that went over a tiny roller, i got to the top and it was just like a small cliff.

another time I was going down a different run with some buddies and suddenly my friend did what looked like someone jumping for their life, and we stop and there's this black hole that went straight down about 4 foot across that my friend jumped over, no marking or anything, so we start riding a little more cautious and we come across 4 more of these holes that go down however many feet, like i said the snow base at that time was between 600-700cm. These where in the middle of a double black groomed run.


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## ThunderChunky

AIRider said:


> When I saw that video, I was freaked out as well, an eye opener.
> 
> I just tied up a whistle in my jacket as well, just in case…
> 
> I think the best way to train for such thing, is to actually, purposely fall into one, (with your friends around of course) and try to get yourself out, because practice makes perfect, or at least will make you panic less.



......I don't.....feel like this ......is a good idea.


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## dreampow

Impressive kit their Snowolf. Most impressive.
You board with that knife strapped to your arm? would get arrested here in Japan.
We don't have tree wells where I ride because the trees are different, even so going off piste solo is something I have stopped doing. As was mentioned staying in visual and verbal contact all the while is the way to go. Even if you just hit a tree or took a bad fall you could be in real trouble by yourself.

Stay safe people.


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## AIRider

Off to wall mart to buy rope, knife, radio and fiiiire... Lol talk about a rape kit.


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## ClevelandSB

Don't judge me too harshly on this because I am from Ohio and have only ridden anywhere big once (Vail), but do you (snowolf) really carry all of that stuff when you're riding in an area where ski patrol and cats roam? 
when I was at vail the farthest I could get away from all the people and still make it to a lift at the end of the run without a huge hike were places like this








but it seemed extremely safe and nonthreatening. Am I just extremely ignorant or are you riding in areas at resorts that are out of bounds?
edit: you can see the out of bounds rope in the photo above. I was in bounds in this pic and didn't go out because if I did I wouldn't have made it to the lift at the bottom


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## Pickle

snowwolf, should i be carrying a pack like this all the time? i usually just board with my friends, on highly populated, groomed slopes.


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## NWBoarder

A pack like Snowolfs is not necessary every time you ride. However, out here in PNW, a lot of BC is accessed through gates at the resorts. Also, the snowpack and the terrain out here in the PNW is quite a bit different than what you would get further east. Anyway, being prepared is never a bad thing, and if you like to ride with a pack, then I see no sense in not carrying everything you need to be safe and sound overnight, in the woods, during winter.


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## Mr. Polonia

deep snow is def a bitch to get out of. I remember when i went catboarding in BC, it was my first time ever riding in deep snow...20-30ft untouched of it for that matter. Our guides told us to avoid riding too close to trees because of potential tree wells. I remember that every time i fell, i mustve had prob a foot of snow over me, granted i fell on my back and it was nothing serious, but the sheer weight of only a couple of inches over you was a really bitch to get out. It took a lot of energy not only to stand back up, but also to wipe off all that weight from your top sheet just to stay afloat once again.

Wrathfudelity i can only imagine how how hard it mustve been for you to unbuckle ur bindings and try to "swim" out of it

EDIT: Now that i just saw that link, it looks exactly like the type of place and terrain where i went catboarding


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## TYrice93

Can you guys explain to me what exactly a tree well is? That video didn't work on my phone


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## TYrice93

Wow, that sounds pretty scary. I've rode in between the trees a few times, but never really payed attention to tree wells.. Even though I don't go near the trees very much, I'll have to remember that next time. I aways see the mini ring around the bottom of trees where there's less snow, but didnt really know about the covered tree wells. Thanks Snowolf!


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## KIRKRIDER

Got a taste of it last season, inbound in Kirkwood after a huge 3 day dump. After an ample and fast turn to the left I did another to get back on the right, and ended up on a small steep hill, that was closed off from the rest of the trail, I ended up there by mistake and found my self on this unstable and loaded steep mini avalanche waiting to happen. I didn't want to keep traversing, so I tracked back stepped off the board and started to climb up the slope, only to find myself buried in neck deep snow at each step. Using the board as a tool I was trying to climb up, instead I was digging a wall of snow in front of me. That made me realize how much snow I was dealing with and what would have happened if it moved on me. I was at that point maybe 5 feet away and under the boundary. Chair lift in sight.
Getting back up was exhausting and a wake up call. Same day, later, cutting trough a tree section where the wind blown snow was 3 - 6 feet higher than anywhere else, I found myself stuck chest deep just riding over it. It wasn't a tree well but just very very light and uncompressed powder that gave way immediately. Even if you don't get buried getting out makes you realize what you're dealing with. That was again INBOUND, in a resort after a massive 3 day 10 feet dump. Be careful out there.


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## davidj

I'm going to be riding Beaver Creek and Vail by the end of the week. Was planning on doing some tree riding well within resort boundaries - between runs, under the lift... you know. Currently the base is really thin, about 20 inches or so, with no more than a few inches forecast for the week. Should I be worried about tree wells?


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## snowvols

You should be more worried about trees under the snow that tree wells imo. Snow sharks are out in full force.


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## ColoRADical

Quick rant on tree wells/backcountry/people that don't know what they're talking about. So there's this girl from Wisconsin that comes out to Colorado for a week around Christmas every year. She posted day to day updates. First day she went to vail and rode groomers. Next day, I read her post. She says she hit up the backcountry at Breck. Hmm Breck didn't have any backcountry except hike to and im sure she didn't hike. Next day. She "fell into an 8ft tree well" at Breck. Really? Even with wind loading I doubt there is anyplace with 8ft of snow.


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## blunted_nose

Went head first into a tree well on a revelstoke trip. My buddie's got me out, but i panicked really really fast, out of breath within 15 second's and eating snow. That scared the shit out of me but my friend's were laughin about it, i told them that such a well is scary as shit. Man if i didnt have buddies riding with me, id probably be dead right now. You feel sooooo hopeless in those, it is just so frightening. GEEZZZZ.


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## Donutz

blunted_nose said:


> Went head first into a tree well on a revelstoke trip. My buddie's got me out, but i panicked really really fast, out of breath within 15 second's and eating snow. That scared the shit out of me but my friend's were laughin about it, i told them that such a well is scary as shit. Man if i didnt have buddies riding with me, id probably be dead right now. You feel sooooo hopeless in those, it is just so frightening. GEEZZZZ.


That's definitely scary. That's how the guy died on Whistler last spring up on Seventh Heaven.


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## snowklinger

blunted_nose said:


> Went head first into a tree well on a revelstoke trip. My buddie's got me out, but i panicked really really fast, out of breath within 15 second's and eating snow. That scared the shit out of me but my friend's were laughin about it, i told them that such a well is scary as shit. Man if i didnt have buddies riding with me, id probably be dead right now. You feel sooooo hopeless in those, it is just so frightening. GEEZZZZ.


The most important thing you should learn from this is to calm yourself in an emergency. Its really hard to learn, but when you are surfing big waves and taking them on the head paddling out, you have to learn to be chill when you feel like you are in a washing mashine. Being out of control under water for 20 sec feels like 2 minutes.

Stop moving, empty your mind for 1 damn sec and just let it all go and think. Don't make moves that will worsen your situation. Consider clearing snow around your head so you can breathe first, worry about getting out next. Its totally different than surfing, but if the situation were truly life threatening, panicking and freaking out will significantly lower your chances of survival.


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## AIRider

http://youtu.be/xAFTUR4vpKI

Just a reminder


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## grafta

This thread helped save a good friends life yesterday, posted about it here > http://www.snowboardingforum.com/553489-post269.html

I don't think I would've known what was going on otherwise. Probably wouldn't have got him out in time.

But yeah, bump for this thread. It's getting deep out there. Ride safe!


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## AIRider

grafta said:


> This thread helped save a good friends life yesterday, posted about it here > http://www.snowboardingforum.com/553489-post269.html
> 
> I don't think I would've known what was going on otherwise. Probably wouldn't have got him out in time.
> 
> But yeah, bump for this thread. It's getting deep out there. Ride safe!


Man that is insane! Glad you guys made it okey. I stared this thread last year after watching that scary video! Spreading information is critical, as I had no clue what tree wells were either.


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## jjz

now that im scared shitless,

Does one need to worry about this for march park city area riding like ill be doing this march.

Im talking about the hiking from mcconkeys and jupiter or rhino or ozone.


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## ARSENALFAN

jjz said:


> now that im scared shitless,
> 
> Does one need to worry about this for march park city area riding like ill be doing this march.
> 
> Im talking about the hiking from mcconkeys and jupiter or rhino or ozone.


You always have to be worried about tree wells. Ride glades with a partner and with a whistle. Tell your partner to keep an eye on you over his shoulder or vise versa. Its easy to get seperated in the glades. Happens all the time.


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## Gdog42

I'll be going to Crystal Mountain, WA, at the end of January. I'd like to do some tree runs but I only will if I'm with someone else.

After our last trip to CO, I thought of this...
Here's an idea of mine for a system for deep pow in trees. I haven't used it yet, but I have told one of the 2 guys I ride with about it for the next time we get into trees with deep powder. He says it's a smart thing to do. I'm just not sure about stability when stopping at the bottom of each section as I'll mention below, so someone let me know what you think:

Let one drop in for about 30-60 ft, depending on visibility while the other two wait at the top or bottom of that section for the other. Take turns, riding down each section one at a time while remaining in sight. This way, if one of us falls into a tree well the other two are always watching and can come to dig them out.

Does that sound good? I know it would be safer than going balls out free-for-all, but I'd also really like to hear what you guys think, who have more experience with this kind of stuff than I do.

We also wear bright colors (I have a lime jacket and bindings.) I know that two of us carry a rescue whistle, which would help us locate each other a little if a fall were to happen.

All these things add up and make it a little more safer. This one-at-a-time system seems like it would be pretty damn effective, and although we're not equipped for backcountry (we usually ride resorts, sometimes off-trial trees), I think it would be a good way to look out for each other. Like I said though, I'm not too sure about being able to stop without falling in deep snow like that at the end of each turn. 

Here's a video of a guy who fell into a tree well at a resort with a helmet cam:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PPvGN6vsIRM&NR=1&feature=endscreen


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## 509-pow

i believe thats called like leap frog or something. i know there is a name for what u just said. i would say its the best way to ride in deep tree areas. i for one just try to stay as far from a tree as i can get when going through them.


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## Gdog42

509-pow said:


> i believe thats called like leap frog or something. i know there is a name for what u just said. i would say its the best way to ride in deep tree areas. i for one just try to stay as far from a tree as i can get when going through them.


yeah, that's crucial!:thumbsup:


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## Backcountry

:sad: scary.


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## 509-pow

ya snowolf i think thats were i got the leap frog thing from.


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## AIRider

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=fe9_1356514000

Here's another crazy video from another post.


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## Gdog42

AIRider said:


> LiveLeak.com - Buried Alive
> 
> Here's another crazy video from another post.


Damn. When I first saw the guy who fell I though that was just his jacket, then I realized that was the base of his board! hmy:

Was that even a tree well or was that just unstable snow? The video says it's a tree well but he wasn't actually bruied at the base of the nearest tree. :dunno:


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## nillo

I've been buried head first. Luckily my head was only about 4 feet down. It is very scary and you can't see anything. If you remember one thing it's that SPIT WILL ALWAYS GO DOWN. The snow may be supporting your body so evenly that you can't tell which way is up and which way is down. You don't want to dig down. So spitting a little so it can run down your face will let you know which way to dig.

Oh, to the guy that thought the only danger in the trees was running into one and thinks he can solve it by wearing a helmet, good luck with that. I have personally witnessed a skier's binding prerelease in the trees and he tee'd the tree with the small of his back. I tore ass down the mountain to notify ski patrol, but he had died instantly. Trees are fucking dangerous.


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## DIESEL

Almost brought me to tears watching all those people help that poor guy.. I can only imagine what that's like except pure and utter terror...

Definitely have a clear mind on what to look for though, great post!!


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## Mo Mo

Jesus that situation was handled like absolute shit. And if you are gonna ride in an area like that you should have an idea of what to do in that kind of ordeal. 

First and foremost close your eyes and count to 3 while breathing in and out.
You need to slowly drive yourself out of the black and into the red.


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## vajohn

I have never been in a deep one, but definitely always worried in the back of my head when I ride alone in places that I know they exist. Not sure if it has been posted here yet, but I found a link with a lot of good safety info and statistics: Tree Well and Snow Immersion Suffocation (SIS) Information :: Home


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## onel0wcubn

Great info there! Def a must read/watch if you plan on doing some POW riding in terrain you are unfamiliar with.


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## AIRider

I was at big white over the weekend and 3 of us were fooling around in the trees. We spotted a tree well, you know, your the typical covered, slanted branches without the visible trunk.

We all stopped and discussed three wells a little. I jumped feet first into one just to see how deep it was. I am 6'7" and I went in belly button deep. I was able to get out without any help, but I did have to dig for at least 5 minutes. I can only imagine how hard it would be if you went head first, strapped.


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## Katehill

:scared2: :scared2:
OMG, It was so scary.


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## Powdurp

Great post I moved to Colorado at the beginning of this last season and have ridden glades at different resorts in summit county. My home mtn is Eldora and I'm pretty sure they have the worst vegetation management problem in ski resort history. A student from CU Boulder apparently died on my favorite glade run via tree well, so naturally I learned to identify and avoid them. Anyways thanks for the awareness post as I definitely had no one idea what to do if I actually got stuck in one! Til I saw this


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## jae

captures the dangers. disregard the unimaginative title of the show, it makes me cringe.


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## joshcowin

Thanks for this thread. I knew abit about tree wells and to be honest won't be going anywhere near trees anytime soon being a beginner and all. It has really opened my eyes to that you lose focus for one second and the mountains are going to punish you! Does anywhere do courses on wells like the do with avy courses? Would defiantly help and save a lot of lives


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## snowangel99

I never even knew this was a thing. Thank you for the education and now I am scared to death of treewells. I need to bubblewrap my children asap.


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## AIRider

New season, new dangers. 27yo kid died in a tree well over the weekend in Whistler. Drowned in one ..    

Educate yourself, be smart.


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## deagol

jae said:


> captures the dangers. disregard the unimaginative title of the show, it makes me cringe.


pretty %%^&$ scary. I have friends who lost their son to a tree well in Telluride.
He died in the hospital after they pulled him out, but the damage was done


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## killclimbz

AIRider said:


> New season, new dangers. 27yo kid died in a tree well over the weekend in Whistler. Drowned in one ..
> 
> Educate yourself, be smart.


Not to discount the tree well possibility, but all the reports I have seen are that he suffocated in deep, unconsolidated snow. Which would still be a NARSID death. It is mentioned that it was a gladed run. No mention of it being a tree well incident. Which is something they commonly report so I don't think it was missed as one. I also think this is the first time I have heard of a death like this.


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## Argo

Today there was a death on bachelor. It was updated and confirmed as a tree well by the resort. 

24 year old snowboarder

Bend man killed in snowboarding accident on Mt. Bachelor - KTVZ


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## Rogue

Argo said:


> Today there was a death on bachelor. Not sure if it was a tree well think it was deep snow immersion. Sad either way.
> 
> 24 year old snowboarder
> 
> Bend man killed in snowboarding accident on Mt. Bachelor - KTVZ


Lots of riders have been in tree wells in the last two weeks here that I’ve talked to. I was halfway down one, but thankfully the nose of my board hit the trunk and kept me from falling all the way one. Fucking scary shit and I was finally able to climb out. A dude died at Meadows last week after a freak accident of him ejecting his skis and flew down into a creek. He was with friends who saw it happen. They don’t know if he died on impact or from snow immersion. 

The fluffy snow is sick to ride but there are serious consequences, especially after getting 7 plus feet in a week. Personally I felt like that creek area should have been marked but either way it still sucks.


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## wrathfuldeity

@Rogue and others, rig up your bindings like this....it could be a lifesaver. All my binding have this rig, its cheap and also helps for strapping in or coming in hot. One yank and ur out of yer bindings


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## lab49232

Rogue said:


> Lots of riders have been in tree wells in the last two weeks here that I’ve talked to. I was halfway down one, but thankfully the nose of my board hit the trunk and kept me from falling all the way one. Fucking scary shit and I was finally able to climb out. A dude died at Meadows last week after a freak accident of him ejecting his skis and flew down into a creek. He was with friends who saw it happen. They don’t know if he died on impact or from snow immersion.
> 
> The fluffy snow is sick to ride but there are serious consequences, especially after getting 7 plus feet in a week. Personally I felt like that creek area should have been marked but either way it still sucks.


Man I hadn't seen this.... I'm assuming they mean the creek that runs right under the lift? It's usually roped off during low snow but I'm guessing all the recent snow probably built some false snow bridges over the area? Haven't been at Meadows in a few weeks so I haven't seen the area recently but this is way to close to home. Gotta admit the snow has been so good after such a terrible season when I think back to how I've been riding the past week it's been with pretty reckless abandon. I even had taken my shovel out of my pack so that it wouldn't bother me over cliffs, rode days of hard pack with a shovel before and suddenly riding trees and cliffs on 5-6 feet of fresh and I leave all the safety gear at home
. Man... Meadows and a snowcave almost killed me a few years ago, it's to easy to get lost in the moment on the mountain or have freak accidents.


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## Rogue

lab49232 said:


> Rogue said:
> 
> 
> 
> Lots of riders have been in tree wells in the last two weeks here that I?ve talked to. I was halfway down one, but thankfully the nose of my board hit the trunk and kept me from falling all the way one. Fucking scary shit and I was finally able to climb out. A dude died at Meadows last week after a freak accident of him ejecting his skis and flew down into a creek. He was with friends who saw it happen. They don?t know if he died on impact or from snow immersion.
> 
> The fluffy snow is sick to ride but there are serious consequences, especially after getting 7 plus feet in a week. Personally I felt like that creek area should have been marked but either way it still sucks.
> 
> 
> 
> Man I hadn't seen this.... I'm assuming they mean the creek that runs right under the lift? It's usually roped off during low snow but I'm guessing all the recent snow probably built some false snow bridges over the area? Haven't been at Meadows in a few weeks so I haven't seen the area recently but this is way to close to home. Gotta admit the snow has been so good after such a terrible season when I think back to how I've been riding the past week it's been with pretty reckless abandon. I even had taken my shovel out of my pack so that it wouldn't bother me over cliffs, rode days of hard pack with a shovel before and suddenly riding trees and cliffs on 5-6 feet of fresh and I leave all the safety gear at home
> . Man... Meadows and a snowcave almost killed me a few years ago, it's to easy to get lost in the moment on the mountain or have freak accidents.
Click to expand...

Here is the article. It was st the bottom of rock garden where that creek is. I remember riding by it and noticing a dark spot, but you can’t see it until you come up to it and I’m deep snow it can be hard to suddenly traverse around it. I was there when it happened and I saw ski patrol and other people. I was worried something like this had happened. 

I also noticed this week ski patrol was filling in the creek that that runs directly under the lift at the bottom, probably to avoid a similar outcome. 

http://www.oregonlive.com/clackamascounty/index.ssf/2018/02/longview_lawyers_dies_in_ski_a.html

Hey, I get it. I was just riding low angle HRM trees and it happened. It’s easy for the excitement to outweigh the risks. My friend went ahead of me because it was the last run. Luckily I had service and access to my phone. Those Bluetooth chip headsets are handy too.


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## Argo

There was one at squaw today too....


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## robotfood99

150 mph wind and avalanche at Squaw. That is f’ing crazy.

https://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/squaw-valley-avalanche-ski-resort-storm-weather-12724326.php


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## Rogue

Actually two died at Bachelor on Friday in tree wells. Freaks me out. 

http://www.ktvz.com/news/bend-man-killed-in-snowboarding-accident-on-mt-bachelor/710360366


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## chomps1211

Rogue said:


> Actually two died at Bachelor on Friday in tree wells. Freaks me out.
> 
> Mt. Bachelor double-tragedy: Skier, boarder die in tree wells - KTVZ


I know you do a lot of solo riding out there,…. Please be alert & careful!!!

(…not suggesting you're recklress or anything,.. just don't let enthusiasm for epic conditions trump caution!!!)


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## Argo

Rogue said:


> Actually two died at Bachelor on Friday in tree wells. Freaks me out.
> 
> Mt. Bachelor double-tragedy: Skier, boarder die in tree wells - KTVZ


Yeah, i heard about the other one yesterday also. It wasnt confirmed yet so I didnt want to say anything. She was actually missing all day from early on. :|

@chomps1211 I think we all ride alone, I primarily ride alone and am pretty aware all the time of the dangers and im sure rogue tries to be also... a wistle may help, friends may help. Both of these people were riding in groups and got seperated. You can do stuff to mitigate hazard but unfortunately its still going to be extremely dangerous with 7-8' of fresh medium to low density snow down. :blahblah:

The thing that makes it worse is alot of it is totally unconsolidated because that area just never really gets totally tracked up or enough sun/heat to help. When you even unstrap in the middle of an open area you sink to your chest. I did a lawn dart maneuver last week and my only saving grace is the thousands of core exercises i do so i could crunch up, unstrap and sling my body around. :embarrased1:

I may put some straps on my bindings like @wrathfuldeity has as another helper.... :dry:

The PNW overall can really honeypot people in to it. There are alot of intermediate and below skiers/riders in expert terrain that rides like back country because of the limited amount of people on thr snow. There really is a huge difference in consolidated snow thats been riden by thousands vs unconsolidated snow riden by virtually no one. Bachelor has mandated partner riding and avy gear at times on the west side and I wonder if they may do it again now..... 2 deaths in a season is bad, 2 in a day is horrible. Not saying its their fault but that people need a reminder sometimes especially if they arent aware or used to the conditions.


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## Argo

Mt Bachelor statement..

We tell you with deep sadness: Yesterday, two Mt. Bachelor guests died in unrelated incidents involving tree wells. In the first incident, an adult male snowboarder was discovered in a tree well in the West Bowls off the Northwest lift. Ski patrol members arrived and performed CPR, to no avail.

Later in the day, an adult female skier was reported missing after separating from her friends. Mt. Bachelor ski patrol and Deschutes County Search and Rescue crews launched a search, and after several hours of searching, they found the body of the female skier in a tree well in the Cloudchaser lift area.

All of us are devastated by this. Two unrelated incidents in one day is unthinkable. We are heartbroken and send our deepest condolences to the affected family and friends.


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## wrathfuldeity

Riding with the crew yesterday 6 of us (I am the least experienced), going through a well known tree stash. Only 5 came out, we waited a few minutes at our usual stop, started yelling, backed up about 20 feet on the groomer to get a better view of the tree stash. Saw our bud about 60 feet up the hill He was fine but ass first in a tree well (about 60" in the past week). Anyway he is an expert skier with 50+years; had stopped but the snow caved near the tree and he fell back in to the well. He was stuck. So 1 stayed on the groomer, 4 of us up went up. The biggest guy (6'7" and 300) set the boot track up...waist deep...he made it up, but was exhausted...the next 2 of us had a much easier time following in the boot track, and we got his skis off and dug him out/pulled him up right. Anyway buddy skied out but exhausted and this was a 20 minute ordeal. Patrol stopped, made sure everybody made it out fine and radioed in the event.

So assume nothing...and trust no one...but trust the buddy system.


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## sabatoa

This thread is nightmare fuel


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## chomps1211

sabatoa said:


> This thread is nightmare fuel


...and just saw on TWC how several ppl got caught in an "In-bounds" avalanche @ Squaw or Mammoth!! :blink:


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## lab49232

It's one thing to talk about numbers and read numbers and snow fall, but until you actually witness in person what was going on in the PNW this past week and a half it's almost impossible to fully grasp just how big an event this storm was. And to happen with such a low base where many areas that would normally be long covered and packed down, we had trees with only a foot or two of snow at the base just waiting to create huge wells.


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## Argo

chomps1211 said:


> ...and just saw on TWC how several ppl got caught in an "In-bounds" avalanche @ Squaw or Mammoth!! :blink:


Happened at both places actually. 5 got hit in both places while on ski runs


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## Phedder

Suddenly I'm quite okay with our regular 2-6inch top ups rather than foot + dumps.


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## Argo

Phedder said:


> Suddenly I'm quite okay with our regular 2-6inch top ups rather than foot + dumps.


While I am still young, I am also pretty content with my number coming up after riding all morning in those extremely good conditions. 

It would suck but there are alot worse ways to go.


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## f00bar

Argo said:


> Phedder said:
> 
> 
> 
> Suddenly I'm quite okay with our regular 2-6inch top ups rather than foot + dumps.
> 
> 
> 
> While I am still young, I am also pretty content with my number coming up after riding all morning in those extremely good conditions.
> 
> It would suck but there are alot worse ways to go.
Click to expand...

That's just stupid crazy talk. I doubt your loved ones would feel the same. Is a days good riding when there are so many safe ones worth the heartache it would cause others? No amount of fluffy white stuff in your face is worth your life.


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## Argo

We all feel the same way. If we didnt, we wouldnt live in mountain towns and ride deep powder, alot. We wouldnt have a son that does extreme competitions, we wouldn't have been doing avy courses with him since 14 years old.

Our kids are raised for the most part, youngest is 18. Seeing grandkids would be cool.

I feel bad for these latest ones locally as they were so young and have a lot of life to live at 19 and 24.


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## wrathfuldeity

Argo said:


> While I am still young, I am also pretty content with my number coming up after riding all morning in those extremely good conditions.
> 
> It would suck but there are alot worse ways to go.





f00bar said:


> That's just stupid crazy talk. I doubt your loved ones would feel the same. Is a days good riding when there are so many safe ones worth the heartache it would cause others? No amount of fluffy white stuff in your face is worth your life.





Argo said:


> We all feel the same way. If we didnt, we wouldnt live in mountain towns and ride deep powder, alot. We wouldnt have a son that does extreme competitions, we wouldn't have been doing avy courses with him since 14 years old.
> 
> Our kids are raised for the most part, youngest is 18. Seeing grandkids would be cool.
> 
> I feel bad for these latest ones locally as they were so young and have a lot of life to live at 19 and 24.


Agree with @Argo and perhaps we are at a different stage than some of you. My family is fully aware of my passion for the mountain life and danger there of. We have friends that have lost love ones in the snow....its a fact of mtn life. Not to speak for Argo, but both of us are in the medical field and there are certainly less desirable ways to go. For me part of the risk and lifestyle...die in a car accident on some frick'n freeway or riding free and wild. That being said, I do want to live to ride another deep day with friends. :grin:


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## Argo

wrathfuldeity said:


> Agree with @Argo and perhaps we are at a different stage than some of you. My family is fully aware of my passion for the mountain life and danger there of. We have friends that have lost love ones in the snow....its a fact of mtn life. Not to speak for Argo, but both of us are in the medical field and there are certainly less desirable ways to go. For me part of the risk and lifestyle...die in a car accident on some frick'n freeway or riding free and wild. That being said, I do want to live to ride another deep day with friends. :grin:


Yeah man, I have seen alot of people die in alot of less desireable ways. Worst for me is thinking of death by cancer or diabetes. 

Oddly enough i have never gotten emotional for a lost adult life, i have when we couldnt save a kid though. I have and do get emotional when I have been able to save a life, every time. These are all critical trauma type situations. 

I would rather die in a tree well or avalanche at 80 than at 41 of course but either way is better than death by drunk driver while driving home from a work shift. 

Another thing people can do to help out in the real world is take a cpr and first aid class and learn to think more critically/calmly in bad situations. Its my understanding that the young guy had a chance, none of the initial people to dig him out had any sort of useful training. I know a few people that have died because of this. Most people think they will act, in my experiences with it most people freeze up or freak out.


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## ridinbend

wrathfuldeity said:


> Agree with @Argo and perhaps we are at a different stage than some of you. My family is fully aware of my passion for the mountain life and danger there of. We have friends that have lost love ones in the snow....its a fact of mtn life. Not to speak for Argo, but both of us are in the medical field and there are certainly less desirable ways to go. For me part of the risk and lifestyle...die in a car accident on some frick'n freeway or riding free and wild. That being said, I do want to live to ride another deep day with friends. :grin:


Having been riding exactly where this occurred only minute before, I've been grappling with this since the chopper landed in the parking lot. We knew the person was deceased when there was a lack of urgency and the pilots pushed the cart back to the chopper empty. It was deep, it was challenging, it was glorious. Everybody was happy, hooting, smiling, laughing. And I can guarantee the snowboarder we lost was having the greatest day of his life, as was I. I'm not morbid and death isn't something I stress because it happens to everyone but I can't help but think of I had to die before I choose, it would be I a day like that. The collateral damage is brutal and people will mourn loss. However I'm selfish, have no kids, and try to live every day as a blessing. When it's over, it's over. I hope I'm not old and pathetic waiting to die in the end. I know the risks, I ride backcountry. I've seen what can happen but I feel fulfilled in life already and wouldn't do anything different if today was my last day. /endthoughtfulrant


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## rambob

wrathfuldeity said:


> Agree with @Argo and perhaps we are at a different stage than some of you. My family is fully aware of my passion for the mountain life and danger there of. We have friends that have lost love ones in the snow....its a fact of mtn life. Not to speak for Argo, but both of us are in the medical field and there are certainly less desirable ways to go. For me part of the risk and lifestyle...die in a car accident on some frick'n freeway or riding free and wild. That being said, I do want to live to ride another deep day with friends. :grin:


Talk is cheap on the internet. U probably wont be thinking 'what a great way to go' when you're upside down with 5 feet on top of u in a treewell or sluff situation.


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## chomps1211

Personally,... I want to _Live_ and _Ride_ forever!!! 






However, @ 57 y/o and after 9 straight days of riding at Boyne this week followed by a 3.5-4 hour drive,....?

...I'll be happy if I can just wake up for work tomorrow!!!   

:blink: :laugh:


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## Rogue

rambob said:


> Talk is cheap on the internet. U probably wont be thinking 'what a great way to go' when you're upside down with 5 feet on top of u in a treewell or sluff situation.


Pretty much what I’m thinking when I remember being halfway in that tree well, sunk down into a creek embankment another time, and a few other close calls. It’s absolutely terrifying having no solid ground beneath and you have limited ability to get out. I wasn’t thinking damn this is the sickest day of my life, I was thinking damn I hope I get out. Anyone claiming they’d be content dying that way Is saying so from the comfort of their home. 

I of course will continue to take risks because I will not limit myself to riding only groomers. However, it is essential to be as cautious and aware as possible of my limits and the conditions on hand. Thankfully the conditions that create such a fatal outcome do not last all season, but being on snow will always include risks. Like the skier at meadows who double ejected from his skis into a creek. One in a million chance. Bottom like be safe, prepared, do what you can to mitigate risks, and know how to help others. 

Stay safe everyone


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## Phedder

Argo said:


> While I am still young, I am also pretty content with my number coming up after riding all morning in those extremely good conditions.
> 
> It would suck but there are alot worse ways to go.


Oh I'm with you there, death is something I'm sadly more experienced with than I'd guess most in their mid-20s. Everyone's gotta go at some time. 

My initial comment was more a passing reminder of the risks associated with such weather events that many others may not even consider. We have very regular, consistent snowfall, but rarely any big events. I think I'd happily take that over drought and dump cycles, especially with the terrain you guys have.


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## Argo

There is a big difference in saying that I WANT to die and saying I'd be content to die this particluar way. Has nothing to do with the willingness to curl up in a ball and sink into the hole to let it smother you right then.

I would and wrath would fight to get out and survive. 

Id rather die on a good day while actually living vs slowly rotting away from disease or old age.


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## f00bar

Argo said:


> There is a big difference in saying that I WANT to die and saying I'd be content to die this particluar way. Has nothing to do with the willingness to curl up in a ball and sink into the hole to let it smother you right then.
> 
> I would and wrath would fight to get out and survive.
> 
> Id rather die on a good day while actually living vs slowly rotting away from disease or old age.


Sorry, you wouldn't be content. You'd be dead.

As Joker says in Full Metal Jacket, 'The dead know only one thing, it is better to be alive'

But this sidetracks what I think the real point of this all should be and that is making people more aware of the risks involved in such 'epic days' and it isn't all just fun and games.


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## rambob

Id rather ride deep fresh then that hard shit; cant hang on hard snow, scares me the most. just make sure when you're being careful that u are really being careful, have fun, be stoked....


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