# Toe/heel dynamics during turning



## SlvrDragon50 (Mar 25, 2017)

Hi,

So I am a very new snowboarder, and when I took a lesson, the instructor was this 15 year old park rider who did competitions. Definitely knew what he was talking about, but I suspect he may have not been explaining what he wanted us to do perfectly?

I could do heel turns fairly well but not the way he was explaining them. For regular, he described heel turns as pushing on the heel with the front foot and pushing on the toe edge with the rear foot, effectively twisting the board. This makes sense in my head, but whenever I tried to intentionally do this, I had absolutely no control in my turn. He explained toe turns the same though vice-versa.

Is this the correct way of thinking about turns? I did much much better just going heel on both edge or toe on both edges. I've been reading and the torsional method seems to be more that there is more applied heel pressure on the front initially followed by heel pressure on the rear.


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## wrathfuldeity (Oct 5, 2007)

Yes...correct...but not the only way...there are different things/metaphors/images. To my bewilderment the toe/heel gas pedal did not make sense to me as a noob...but it does now. I find it to be easier to think about it as using your front/leading knee to steer.

Your homework is to find and watch the creepy basement vid :surprise:


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## SlvrDragon50 (Mar 25, 2017)

Okay, so it was just more of an issue with thinking about how to turn rather than being a different way of turning?

I know the more you think about something, the harder it can be. My friend was trying to teach me the turning using the leading knee to steer which kinda made sense. I've been watching a bunch of Snowboard Pro Camp, and the way Kevin describes turns using the back hand as a rudder to naturally turn the body looked so easy as well. I know for my toe turns I have been looking down hill which probably made it a lot harder.


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## wrathfuldeity (Oct 5, 2007)

Using the front knee approach does involve torsional twisting the board...gear up on the carpet and try it...watch the vid.


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## wrathfuldeity (Oct 5, 2007)

SlvrDragon50 said:


> Okay, so it was just more of an issue with thinking about how to turn rather than being a different way of turning?
> 
> I know the more you think about something, the harder it can be. My friend was trying to teach me the turning using the leading knee to steer which kinda made sense. I've been watching a bunch of Snowboard Pro Camp, and the way Kevin describes turns using the back hand as a rudder to naturally turn the body looked so easy as well. I know for my toe turns I have been looking down hill which probably made it a lot harder.


Slvr...things like using the back hand as a rudder as a noob is fine...but it will later hinder your turning because it will act as a swinging/flying counter balance that will impede your turns at the advanced level. So encourage you not to develop some bad habits now.

Also looking down hill while on toe side impedes you from completing your toeside turns, due to being counter rotated waaay open...which also result in not being able to lock in the toeside edge.

Hopefully you have watched the creepy vid...which will help you to visualize how to actually move your body.

:wink:


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## SlvrDragon50 (Mar 25, 2017)

I have no clue what you're talking about regarding the creepy vid.

I think I might just be expecting too much out of myself progress wise considering my first day snowboarding was kinda wasted trying to teach myself. I noticed massive improvements the second day.

Regarding the hands, I was told that sometimes it helps to hold my hands together and keep it in the center of the board to stop myself from flailing around. Good or bad idea?


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## Donutz (May 12, 2010)

The torsional turning technique is correct, but it's just one of many. Technique varies based on the speed you're going, how aggressively you want to turn, how steep the slope, etc. All of it becomes natural eventually. As Wrath says, you just have to try to avoid learning bad habits that you'll have to un-learn later.

There are a ton of vids on youtube; there's the snowboard addiction videos, although they might be a bit advanced for what you're trying to learn. Wrath has produced a video (in his basement) where he demonstrates various moves, in the nude. Okay, I'm kidding about that last part. Still, several people had to claw their eyeballs out after watching. I hear it's going to be a horror movie soon, kind of like The Ring. >

Anyway, the torsional thing is used to _start_ a turn. Once you are into the turn, you reverse the heel pressure so that heel and toe are pushing the same edge. Keep your weight forward to slide the back end, or shift your weight back to cut a cleaner line.


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## SlvrDragon50 (Mar 25, 2017)

Donutz said:


> The torsional turning technique is correct, but it's just one of many. Technique varies based on the speed you're going, how aggressively you want to turn, how steep the slope, etc. All of it becomes natural eventually. As Wrath says, you just have to try to avoid learning bad habits that you'll have to un-learn later.
> 
> There are a ton of vids on youtube; there's the snowboard addiction videos, although they might be a bit advanced for what you're trying to learn. Wrath has produced a video (in his basement) where he demonstrates various moves, in the nude. Okay, I'm kidding about that last part. Still, several people had to claw their eyeballs out after watching. I hear it's going to be a horror movie soon, kind of like The Ring. >
> 
> Anyway, the torsional thing is used to _start_ a turn. Once you are into the turn, you reverse the heel pressure so that heel and toe are pushing the same edge. Keep your weight forward to slide the back end, or shift your weight back to cut a cleaner line.


That makes so much more sense now... because I was always able to start the turn, but I could never maintain the turn!


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## wrathfuldeity (Oct 5, 2007)

damm kids these days...couldn't find it...even if it was handed to them

http://www.snowboardingforum.com/ti...29841-creepy-basement-vid-needs-stickied.html

http://www.snowboardingforum.com/tips-tricks-snowboard-coaching/230145-cereal-box.html

http://www.snowboardingforum.com/tips-tricks-snowboard-coaching/235786-fore-aft-movement.html


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## SlvrDragon50 (Mar 25, 2017)

wrathfuldeity said:


> damm kids these days...couldn't find it...even if it was handed to them
> 
> http://www.snowboardingforum.com/ti...29841-creepy-basement-vid-needs-stickied.html
> 
> http://www.snowboardingforum.com/tips-tricks-snowboard-coaching/230145-cereal-box.html


Forever scarred in just the first minute of video.

Just finished watching though, it makes a lot more sense. I was not driving my hips forward at all. I will have to try that.... next season.


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## tokyo_dom (Jan 7, 2013)

Weirdly, the twisting the board method is how i learned 20 years ago. And not because anyone told me; but because i had no other snowboarders on the mountain to learn from (and no creepy basement videos to watch). I just sort of sat down and thought about how the edges worked and how making the board twist would let me point it in the direction i wanted it to go. Worked well for me because after 2 days i was doing both toe and heel side turns.

But it led to bad habits; not using the shoulders/hips to turn the board means my shoulders often open up (face forward) and i end up counter rotating almost every turn. So now i am going back and learning the "cereal box" method. Helps massively with stability for jumps!


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## wrathfuldeity (Oct 5, 2007)

tokyo_dom said:


> Weirdly, the twisting the board method is how i learned 20 years ago. And not because anyone told me; but because i had no other snowboarders on the mountain to learn from (and no creepy basement videos to watch). I just sort of sat down and thought about how the edges worked and how making the board twist would let me point it in the direction i wanted it to go. Worked well for me because after 2 days i was doing both toe and heel side turns.
> 
> But it led to bad habits; not using the shoulders/hips to turn the board means my shoulders often open up (face forward) and i end up counter rotating almost every turn. So now i am going back and learning the "cereal box" method. Helps massively with stability for jumps!


iirc, this was years ago, the guy that told me about the cereal box was more of a park oriented guy...who also noted that generally you need to keep your body compact around the "axis". He gave the example of an spinning ice skater doing pirouettes or a spring board diver/swimmer doing flips...that if arms/leg extended will slow the spin around the axis vs if the arms/leg is tucked/compacted/close to axis of the spin (spin could be vertical axis...as a spin or horizontal axis as a flip) the spin will be faster/quicker and in general be more efficient. Efficient as in effort of movement...iirc and understood correctly...that in general you want the effort to be...initially made from the hips, but that many folks incorrectly use the extended periphery (arms/shoulders) to initiate as the "swing weight" that is then immediately brought in (compacted) "close to the axis as possible." But he indicated that using the core/hips is more efficient, faster and stable than the swing weight method because often the shoulders/arms (periphery) remain extended and thus slows the spin and over-rotating. Anyway it is all because of the "closer to the body's center of gravity (cog)" thing where the axis is. Anyway he said spin or lead from the hips instead of the shoulders to for efficiency and to prevent over-rotating. Disclaimer: I'm not a park guy, have never done a spin or flip...on purpose...so I don't know if I remember or understood correctly what he (or I) just said. However, it does seem to be true for general riding and making turns happen by keeping your arms tucked/elbows glued to the ribs. And when doing jump turns/billygoating in tight terrain by swing/leading with the hips and working from the core instead of the shoulders to make the turns....to which all this generally lends to the "cereal box" thing.

Hopefully this made sense...and should apply to jumps and such...which to my understanding, that doing grabs is stylistic way to compact your body around the COG to stabilize while in the air. Btw I don't generally jump...cause I'm old and decrepit....and quite probably full of shit. :blahblah:


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## Gregory (Jun 18, 2017)

Just watched the creepy basement vid. It does make sense to load heel or toe of front foot by turning your hips, however I have to tell you that this is definitely not the only technique, and any kind of rotation is absolutely not necessary for turns.

I have my certification in a carving-oriented teaching system with Austrian roots that considers any kind of rotation during drift or carving turns a mistake. 

That's just one of methodologies out there, but I find it extremely efficient in terms of learning to do clean turns and carve.
I had some students that learnt to connect carving turns quite decently in less than a week!

So the whole turn is initiated and completed using weight shift. To initiate drift turn we have to shift our weight diagonally and this move makes the board go down the fall line. 

When we teach beginners, we make them have majority of body weight on the front foot until the board is riding down the fall line and the edge is changed. Only after that, throughout the second phase, we shift our body weight back to both feet while increasing lean angle.

Later on the same movement is used, but we don't have to shift our body weight this far, so we keep it on both feet pretty much.

The beauty of this method is that we don't rely on shoulder rotation to do turns, so it doesn't really matter whether you rotate your shoulders, counter-rotate them or keep them still in open or closed body position, so you can really explore all the different techniques. And honestly if you want to ride park you have to be able to do all these things!

This video explains one of the exercises that we give to our students, it's called garland and it's pretty much a turn without 
edge change. It's very effective in terms of preparing to learn turns and it definitely helps to get rid of all the mistakes.

(sorry for the mess with video, I edited it quite a few times already and that's the best I could make it)






This is an exercise from lesson three and it's best to watch all three lessons. Not that I have more at the moment ) 
You can do it on snowboardabc dot com - you will have to create a profile first.

By the way open position and counter-rotation is viewed as some kind of evil in most vids teaching to snowboard, but this is not true.

When I have to handle very steep and narrow terrain - counter-rotation allows me to do like 1.5 - 2 full turns per second if I need to.
And the same counter-rotation allows me to turn my board 90 degrees and stop really effectively - that is also very helpful in narrow corridors. You would use up so much more time to turn the board using shoulder rotation, in some cases it would be too late by that time.

As for open shoulder position - for example when I carve at higher speeds I prefer to keep my shoulders in an open position and I don't rotate them. Angulation works so much better that way as my fanny is also turned and it's easy to keep it over the board. So I can lean more. That's how it is done on a race board. 

Not that I like race boards, they look a bit silly to me and I hate competing for seconds instead of style points.

As for snowboardProCamp videos - some of stuff he is teaching makes no sense to me, I doubt if he has instructor's licence. When dude is teaching to carve and he's drifting most of the time - that's where I draw the line.


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## SGboarder (Jun 24, 2012)

Gregory said:


> Just watched the creepy basement vid. It does make sense to load heel or toe of front foot by turning your hips, however I have to tell you that this is definitely not the only technique, and any kind of rotation is absolutely not necessary for turns.


Very true.



Gregory said:


> So the whole turn is initiated and completed using weight shift. To initiate drift turn we have to shift our weight diagonally and this move makes the board go down the fall line.
> 
> When we teach beginners, we make them have majority of body weight on the front foot until the board is riding down the fall line and the edge is changed. Only after that, throughout the second phase, we shift our body weight back to both feet while increasing lean angle.
> 
> ...


This is a perfectly legitimate teaching method - and it ultimately it achieves a similar impact on the board as the 'gas pedal' method.
One major risk with your method is that many riders tend to remain straight through the hip and either bend at the hip or ankles, resulting in the center of gravity being well outside of the edge of the board. That is the wrong way to get the board on its edge and is inherently unstable. It is very important to emphasize the bending of the knees and hips for this technique to make sure that the center of gravity stays roughly over the edge of the board.



Gregory said:


> By the way open position and counter-rotation is viewed as some kind of evil in most vids teaching to snowboard, but this is not true.


Amen!


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## Gregory (Jun 18, 2017)

SGboarder said:


> This is a perfectly legitimate teaching method - and it ultimately it achieves a similar impact on the board as the 'gas pedal' method.
> 
> One major risk with your method is that many riders tend to remain straight through the hip and either bend at the hip or ankles, resulting in the center of gravity being well outside of the edge of the board. That is the wrong way to get the board on its edge and is inherently unstable. It is very important to emphasize the bending of the knees and hips for this technique to make sure that the center of gravity stays roughly over the edge of the board.


I would say it is a variation of "gas pedal" method  We teach our students to control "gas pedal" with both feet and with one foot first.
As of gravity center being outside of the edge - yeah, if you bend your hips or ankles, you will lose control, but you don't have to bend them. In the beginning weight shift is done (almost) only within the perimeter of the board while working with the gas pedal and we don't bend ankles, knees or hips additionally.

If you shift your body weight outside the board and don't change the angle between your board and snow - you will fall of course, quite often students just bend their back and get low in order to maintain their balance, and control is lost. But if you do everything together and don't bend your ankles, knees or hips - eccentric force starts building up and changes the way gravity works (think of bike during the turn - it doesn't have to bend its tires or suspension, right? And if the biker has to lean inside the turn on higher speeds - that can be compared to angulation, something we only come across in carving). 

So the higher the speed the more you can shift your weight outside the board, and mix of eccentric force and gravity will still get directed straight into your edge. Sidecut of our board takes care of all the turning. And you will only have to bend your knees if you need to get some vertical work done.

For example when I do a basic carve the amount of movement in my knees is kept to minimum relatively to the board.

It's a good point though, I will keep in mind that the video I dropped above alone is not enough to explain all this (there are 7 separate videos explaining all this) and I might have to add a few more points on "gas pedal" 

P.S. if someone can go through all my videos (in best case scenario put them to use) and provide me feedback - that would be great. I have big plans for my page and I can offer beta testers access to all the videos in the future. That should be interesting to anyone who wants to get deeper into carving or jibbing.


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