# Burton Step On with Intuition Liners



## compatibilizer (Nov 19, 2020)

So I tried Burton Step On last year and I'm determined to make the switch (I know, I know but it's not just about the lazy factor, it's the response)

Here is my dilemma, I have Mondo 27 feet with EE width, and there is this notorious pinky hot spot issue with the step-ons, caused by the toe cleats molded onto the shell, resulting in an extremely stiff section around the toe box. In a standard boot with a standard binding, the toe box section is free to flex and give just a little bit, this creates a cushioning effect combined with the liner. In step-on, the toe cleats section is rigid and the boot has no lateral movement inside the binding, there is some vertical play but no lateral. So every time your body weight rolls from your back foot to your front foot, your pinky gets crushed against a concrete wall. There is only a thin liner foam to cushion this impact, and it's even thinner if you're wearing a "wide" step-on boot because Burton's so called "wide" models are not true wide shells, they just have modified liners with thin material around the forefoot but they are the exact same shell.

Since the step-on system is designed around a normal width foot, wide feet have no choice but to oversize the boot and fill the empty space with extra foam. I hope Burton decides to make "_wide step on bindings"_ that can accomodate _"wide shell step on boots"_ since width of the binding limits how wide the boot can actually be. Doesn't matter which model boot you have, shell width will always be what the bindings dictate them to be. Therefore you can not punch the shell out either.

My pinky hot spot issue is always at the leading foot and the pain increases at steep terrain. I tried my normal US 9 size and it was like hell, tried the "wide" version and it was even worse. As soon as you decrease liner thickness all around the forefoot to accommodate wide feet, you start getting toe bang. Your feet should be supported at the tip, just like a ballet shoe fully supports the tip of their feet. You can locally remove foam from a few strategic points to fix some issues, but when you remove foam from the whole forefoot, toes move around and get crushed against the rigid shell.

My solution to this dilemma is oversizing the boot, creating the crucial lateral space to fill with ample foam and cushion the side to side impact. But this creates empty space in front of the foot which also needs to be filled. I decided to do this with a very thick aftermarket liner, an Intuition Power Wrap+

I've just ordered them and will heat mold them carefully in a convection oven when they arrive, but I may not be able to test them on snow anytime soon. If you used Intuition liners before, please give me advices, warnings, remarks, pointers, ideas or anything that may be useful.

Thank you.


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## WigMar (Mar 17, 2019)

This seems counter intuitive to me. You want to use Step-Ons for the response, but you're going to be running oversized boots to make the system work with your feet. Oversized boots kill response. I think you'd be better off with properly fitted boots that don't cause you any issues- even if you have to use traditional bindings.


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## WigMar (Mar 17, 2019)

I believe K2 places the cleats under the ball of the foot on their Clicker system. I like the look of their system more because it allows for some lateral flex, which is important to me. Burton's system seems too locked in side to side. If your foot fits K2 boots, Clicker might be worth looking into.


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## compatibilizer (Nov 19, 2020)

The idea here is to fill a slightly oversized shell with a thick a## liner.


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## compatibilizer (Nov 19, 2020)

It's this monstrous piece of high density foam, which molds both to the shape of your feet inside and to the shape of your boot outside. You can not use it without heat molding first.


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## compatibilizer (Nov 19, 2020)

I've read that these liners can be used to fill up slightly oversized shells. I suspect @BurtonAvenger did something similar because he mentioned it in one of his videos. He also said he had to change the liner during his step on review.


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## WigMar (Mar 17, 2019)

I believe most boots are designed in full sizes. To make up the difference for half sizes, different liners and insoles are used to take up more volume. I don't think there's anything wrong with doing this same thing yourself, with a larger shell and a thicker liner. A loss of response and performance may still occur. I generally ride the smallest shells I can to reduce booting out.


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## compatibilizer (Nov 19, 2020)

Honestly that's one of my concerns going down this route, I never laid my hands on an Intuition liner before (except the paper thin ones coming out of 32 boots but they don't count I suppose).

They have many different models, but this one is their biggest and the baddest. I did some research in the alpine snowboarders forum where these liners are pretty popular, some mention this model made their boots so stiff that they became unrideable (which I wouldn't mind) so I'm hoping that they won't mush out the board feel substantially.


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## fzst (Jan 3, 2019)

I kinda toyed with this idea too, not for Step Ons just for regular boots. My reason for this consideration is my experience with the liners in my Adidas boots (I currently ride an Adidas Acerra). The Adidas liners are pretty thin and made out of this pretty stiff and dense material it kind of looks like the Intuition liners. Riding these boots was pretty eyeopening to me. Surprisingly, this thin, dense material wasn't lacking in comfort but I have never experienced such a great responsive feeling. So much response is lost in the cushy liner material most boots are made of, they are mostly built for comfort. These liners also don't seem to pack out as much as others do. My boots have about 40 days on them and they pretty much didn't pack out at all yet. This also results in the flex / repsonse of the boots beeing almost the same as on day 1.
I really don't know why other manufacturers don't use such liners as well, I guess it would be too risky because there probably would be more comfort issues.

So my thinking was, if Adidas really is going out of the business I might take a shot at an aftermarket intuiton liner paired up with good shell for my next boot. My problem is also that I'm an E-width and I hope that the superior molding abilities of these intuition liners could help me out in that regard, so maybe I would have to size up half a size and take a thicker liner like you plan on doing.

My Adidas will most likely hold up for this season though (I already bought a spare on sale last season) so this is future thinking for me. I would be very interested in your results though should you proceed with this plan


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## compatibilizer (Nov 19, 2020)

Just checked it out and you're right, it's the same foam used in Adidas called Ultralon. I'll keep posting my progress for sure, I see a lot of people looking for a solution to this step on pinky issue.

I know nobody wants to spend more on an aftermarket liner after dumping all this money on the step on, but user reviews suggest that these liners outlast the boots they are in, so they might be a good investment regardless.


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## compatibilizer (Nov 19, 2020)

A little update on the process, I've got the liners but haven't heat molded them just yet. Taking it slow and trying to figure out the best way to approach this. Here are my initial thoughts;


*1)* Compared to the stock liners these are much stiffer. Stock liners are two layers of foam, I believe around 8mm soft open cell foam overlay with 3-4mm closed cell thermoformable. These are full 12mm closed cell with no soft overlay, it makes a lot of difference to the flex of the liner and the boot in general. I'd say Photon are 6.5 flex with stock liners but 8 with these. They feel a tad bit stiffer than the stock Ion now.

*2)* It is not as thick as I thought it would be lengthwise. It is thick all around the foot but there is a preformed heel pocket and toebox, material is thinner around there. I thought they would be the same thickness all around and take up the extra length, but they won't. I'm not used to having toe wiggle room in my boots but this seems unavoidable here.

*3)* I've read that Intuition used to recommend against footbeds, but I think the new models are meant to be used with one. They still have a pretty thick sole but the preformed shape inside the liner seems to account for the height of a medium thickness footbed. Without one my heel sits too far below the pocket, with a footbed inside it hugs around my heel perfectly. Still considering wrapping a butterfly around the outside to take up a little more length.

*4)* I guess around the instep is where all the magic happens. I have a medium instep but never had so much hold around there inside a soft boot before. It firmly wraps all the way down to the toes. I can still wiggle my toes, but from there on any movement is impossible. Similar to a foot cast with the toes open. It really feels like a binding cranked down on your barefoot. I used to believe that no amount of instep hold will be enough to prevent toe bang if you have toe room and the boot should wrap around your toes like a ballet shoe, but this idea may change. Without heat molding the liners, it wraps around my foot so firmly that my feet fall asleep within 2 minutes, but no pain or pressure points. I believe the circulation problem will be resolved after heat molding and what I'll be left with should be enough to keep my feet in place despite having a lot of toe room.

*5)* These are a PITA to get inside the boots, I know they will get pliable and soft after heating but I seriously doubt I can shove them in quickly enough without putting wrinkles and folds around the liner. I am leaning towards the turkey bag/boiling water method, 3 minute cycles repeated 3 times in succession should transfer enough heat, but I don't know how to get the footbed in there after heating the liner inside the boot. There is so little space towards the toebox that my hand won't get in there to correctly align the footbed.

I know some people had luck with taping the footbed to their feet, pulling a sock over it and mold, but I don't know if I can prevent the footbed shifting like that. I literally have to hold my ankle with both hands and push down full force to get my foot inside. Not sure if I can get in with an additional footbed attached to my foot.

Maybe if I can find a footbed that can withstand the temperature, I can use the boiling water method with the footbed already inside. Anybody tried that and had good luck with it?


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## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

I have Intuition liners in my boots. They're awesome and stiffen the boots quite a bit. Mine are the Luxury high volume because I have skinny feet.

I've used them in ThirtyTwo Prime and Vans Verse. US11 (29.0 cm) shells with 28.0cm liners. Extremely comfortable after heat molding, including a little bit of toe room and i wear them with Superfeet insoles.

I would have to heat mold them again to put them in US10.5 shells, but it can be done.

Definitely heat mold. They can be molded countless times and distribute a lot more mass in the process because they're mostly closed cell moldable foam (instead of lots of open cell on most common liners).

I dont even use the stock liners. Toss them out and put my Intuitons in. Boots are broken in on Day 1, super comfortable and remain stiff as fuck for a long time. Over 2+ yrs they haven't packed out... they're just comfortable and stay pretty stiff.

In fact, the Vans Verse are too stiff for my liking... they come with plastic stiffeners that i dont even use.

So yeah. You can wear whatever shell size with whichever liner size that fits well and hugs your feet in comfort. Forget about foot measurements.


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## WigMar (Mar 17, 2019)

I would put the footbed in the liner before heating it if you don't think you can get it into a hot liner. I've done this before, and it heat molded the insole to my foot's arch. 

I think the hot rice sock method is easier and safer than the hot water method. The rice does hold a good amount of heat. I've had a couple successful heat molds with hot rice socks. The last heat mold I did I used a convection oven. It was probably overkill, but it worked well for me. You've just got to be careful not to overcook it and to get the liner seated in there without wrinkles.

You can always add some adhesive backed foam to the toes if you need to take up more volume in there. Heat molding does move foam into those low pressure areas, so I'd do that first.


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## compatibilizer (Nov 19, 2020)

F1EA said:


> ...Mine are the Luxury high volume because I have skinny feet...


I was considering HV Luxury too, would've gone with that if I knew PW+ was thinner around toe and heel. It feels like the thickness drops down to 6mm around those areas. Do you remember how thick it was around the toebox before you molded yours?





WigMar said:


> I would put the footbed in the liner before heating it if you don't think you can get it into a hot liner. I've done this before, and it heat molded the insole to my foot's arch.
> 
> I think the hot rice sock method is easier and safer than the hot water method. The rice does hold a good amount of heat. I've had a couple successful heat molds with hot rice socks. The last heat mold I did I used a convection oven. It was probably overkill, but it worked well for me. You've just got to be careful not to overcook it and to get the liner seated in there without wrinkles.
> 
> You can always add some adhesive backed foam to the toes if you need to take up more volume in there. Heat molding does move foam into those low pressure areas, so I'd do that first.


I've tried the rice method before, whether it be rice or hot water, one cycle does not transfer enough heat for a good mold. You're right that hot water is a bit risky, I plan to use two layers to avoid a disaster and test them outside before putting them in. It's a bit of a hassle, but once ready it will be quick enough to dump the cooled down water and fill it back up with another round of boiling water. Could do the same using four rice socks instead of two, but it will take considerably longer to replace the cooled down rice during which there will be some heat loss.

Maybe I should just use the oven instead. First wrap the hot liner around my foot and try getting inside the shell with my foot in there, using the plastic grocery bag trick should help. I really doubt I can avoid the wrinkles if I push the hot liner inside without my foot in there. They are a good 30mm longer than my stock liners. I'll do a dry run of the grocery bag trick with cold liners first and see how it goes...


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## WigMar (Mar 17, 2019)

I liked the oven method. You can see the liner puff up when it's ready. As long as you don't overheat the foam or kink it up terribly badly, you can heat it again and remold it. Intuition recommends a 119c limit. Here's a tutorial for shops molding Intuition liners.

You're right- the hardest part about using my oven was getting the liners into the boots smoothly and quickly, centered without folds or creases. Liners get floppy when they're hot enough. I put them in plastic bags to help them slide into the shells easier. If there's creases, keep adjusting and pulling until they're straightened out. I think the largest risk is overcooking the EVA.


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## Kijima (Mar 3, 2019)

I wear an oversized mondo photon wide too because I need the toe box room. My big toe bangs into the side of the toe box badly but I have fixed the problem by gluing neoprene patches to the liner just behind my big toe, this forces my foot across a bit allowing space for my big toe to exist without banging on the shell. 
You could try the same thing with the standard photon liners but put a neoprene patch just behind your little toe.


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## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

I tried a few liners, sizes and volumes with my shells. But also heat-molded right away, so i dont really remember how they were on the toes. My vague memory is... definitely more room than on stock liners for most boots I've tried.

I can't see the difficulty in heating your liners then sticking in the insole right before you put them in the shells. It's quick to do with the liners out as you can really open it before they're in the boots. 

Another thing is to ghetto in some velcro power straps or cuffs for your shins. These liners are designed more for ski boots, so the top is better secured im place with some velcro.


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## compatibilizer (Nov 19, 2020)

Placing the footbed is no issue when the liner is out, but getting the hot liner inside is a problem. I was barely able to push them in when they were cold, it will probably be easier when heated but I'm trying to avoid folds and wrinkles. 

If I use the convection oven method and find some creases after I'm done, would reheating in the oven get rid of those and let me start over? Maybe even using a heat gun to fix them in place without remolding?


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## Jack87 (Jan 9, 2021)

Everything you just described and dealing with the hot spot is 100% spot on. I have normal width feet and have the hot spot in my size 8 photon boots and small bindings. 

I just ordered photon wide I am going to try and the liner is the only thing that is different between the two where the wide just has no foam but only a thing fabric sewn in place on each side of the foot near the cleats. I am hopeful this will help solve my pain since I am actually a regular width foot but we will see. Sadly I broke my foot in end of October and have not been able to go up yet. 

The one thing however that mostly worked for me was removing the insole from the stock liner. I was able to ride most of the day without too much hot spot issue. This does add a bit more lateral movement. My hope was to breaking and pack out the boot like this and later add the insoles back. But we will see as now I will be trying to wide liners.


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## Jack87 (Jan 9, 2021)

WigMar said:


> I believe most boots are designed in full sizes. To make up the difference for half sizes, different liners and insoles are used to take up more volume. I don't think there's anything wrong with doing this same thing yourself, with a larger shell and a thicker liner. A loss of response and performance may still occur. I generally ride the smallest shells I can to reduce booting out.


In this case the shells between the half sizes are actually different and not the same as far as I know. 8 vs 8.5 are different shells I guess I don't know if 7.5 vs 8 are the same shell or not. The wide version of the boot is the same shell to its corresponding size as regular and only difference is the front side section of the liner where the foam has been removed and replaced with thing fabric.


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## gilasurf (Mar 26, 2021)

Jack87 said:


> In this case the shells between the half sizes are actually different and not the same as far as I know. 8 vs 8.5 are different shells I guess I don't know if 7.5 vs 8 are the same shell or not. The wide version of the boot is the same shell to its corresponding size as regular and only difference is the front side section of the liner where the foam has been removed and replaced with thing fabric.


@Jack87 I understand that the Burton Photon Step-On shell is the same for a size 8 and 8W. Is that what you found? I was not sure from what you wrote.

@compatibilizer this is exactly my experience! And I was out for 6 weeks due to the issues it caused with my pinky toe joint (Metatarsophalangeal joint (MCP) – the joint at the base of the toe) to become inflamed and vERY painful after 4 hours of hard riding. The steeper and harder the snow, the worse it was. Pow days way better!

I am working with the retailer to try to get a 8W liner. But it seems from what you are saying that it will hurt regardless as the foot is slammed into the cleat area as you transition weight to the front foot?

Has anyone found a source for an 8W liner?

Thanks!


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## Jack87 (Jan 9, 2021)

Yes. The shell between the 8 and 8w are the same. The wide liner helped me but not by much. Pain still comes back every now and then.

What did help me was removing the insoles entirely. I have fairly flat feet so it was fine for me. Eventually I added the insoles back but I also added a heel wedge in the liner just under the insoles. That seemed to help a great deal. I suggest doing that over getting the wide liner now if you're feet are not actually wide. 

Here is what I used.


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