# BBB 007 - Why Snowboard Shops Are Closing Down



## snowklinger (Aug 30, 2011)

*needs mor grenade*

we need more brands that only make beanies and stickers.

I think a major reason that "core" riders don't support any kind of moneymaking within the industry is because most "core" riders really dont have to work and struggle. Sure they may bail on some hits but they aren't out there working 60 hours a week AND riding 100 days a year(resort snow carnie life is like going on PHISH tour, its a choice in debauchery, they aren't struggling ala kid in africa). Its a first world, rich kids sport for all goods and purposes. These types don't appreciate the value of hard work or paying the cost to pay the boss. Then of course all the "core" riders are getting proforms from their friends and are smart enough to buy from whiskeymilitia during the summer ( I lump myself in this category only by my desire to be shredding every day and not wealthy)

FUBU!


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## Jed (May 11, 2011)

snowklinger said:


> we need more brands that only make beanies and stickers.
> 
> FUBU!


Stickers could have a huge profit margin! We just need to figure out how to become the Apple of the sticker world and get people lining up overnight to pay $30 each for our stickers...


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## larrytbull (Oct 30, 2013)

My .02 cents. If you look at some of the members of this forum. Many of us myself included are gummers who started boarding because of our kids. The marketing needs to go towards the non intuitive markets such as us. Most of us a better off financially to buy the expensive gear. Be nice to see a sponsored rider in their 50's. Promoting a brand


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## Jed (May 11, 2011)

larrytbull said:


> My .02 cents. If you look at some of the members of this forum. Many of us myself included are gummers who started boarding because of our kids. The marketing needs to go towards the non intuitive markets such as us. Most of us a better off financially to buy the expensive gear. Be nice to see a sponsored rider in their 50's. Promoting a brand


Yeah, honestly there's some potential in targeting the older generation. From what I've found in my own marketing/ad spend, I do waay better when I ask Facebook to specifically not show my marketing to people under 20.

It's kind of like how a lot of dentists specially market to 25-40 year old housewives with free gifts because they're the ones in control of booking dental appointments for the whole family.


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## larrytbull (Oct 30, 2013)

Mfrs should also design a series for people like me with blown out knees ..... that us why I tried boarding skis are way too dangerous for my knees


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## BurtonAvenger (Aug 14, 2007)

For some reason I thought that would take a bit longer to listen to. Thanks for the shout out and I look forward to our episode together. 

There's definitely a lot wrong in snowboarding, it keeps marketing itself as a youth culture but the biggest age group is 25 to 50 as those are the guys that were the bread and butter in the 90's/early 2000's. I agree there needs to be more older pros. Jeremy Jones (Big Mountain) is I think 43 now. Mike Basich is over 40. So there's those guys and then the Yes. team is all a bit older. 

I understand keeping the youth interested and that is great, but make a balance. 

Jed you're also on point about shops and brands. That's something we can talk about as well as there's some big shifts I see coming. 

And the whole core thing. Jesus fucking Christ those guys myself included do not help snowboarding in the slightest financially. I can admit that but some of these people that are gear whores that work in the media or as reviewers or what not are the worst. My quiver is actually a lot of really old decks and one current year, but some of these people it's like 10 sets of bindings, 20 decks, 50 sets of outerwear and it's all current year. Why?

I will say the struggle is real in the lifestyle aspect though as there are core riders that just scrape by. I'm working on a mini doc/mockumentary on a local rider here that's 30 years old and is just now getting sponsors. He's in my opinion the true essence of a snowboarder and a professional, but no one has ever heard of him outside the county. Dudes humble, lives humbly, and does what it takes to survive. It should be showing at Snowboard on the Block as well as my site when it's finished.


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## f00bar (Mar 6, 2014)

It's failing because they are marketing to a crowd that doesn't have a ton of disposable cash. That makes it hard to turn a profit.

In my opinion they need to do a better job of letting those older who may have kids to start out know that it really isn't as hard as it seems, even at 35+. In 1978 or so when I was in 2nd grade myself and my 2 years older brother started skiing. Within 5 years not only was my father but my mother was also and she was a total Joan Cleaver, didn't even have a license at the time. How inviting is snowboarding for that?

That was actually a common thing. Kids first, followed by parents. Snowboarding is intimidating. It doesn't have to be. They need to market the heck out of the beginner equipment with full rocker, training wheels and a bidet if need be and get people in the door, then in a few years upsell them.


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## BurtonAvenger (Aug 14, 2007)

^ I fully agree with you on that. 

Just to use myself as an example, I review beginner equipment solely in hopes that it helps people that are getting into it. Companies actually tell me they'd rather not send me a beginner board and would rather I review 5 twin park decks that are all relatively the same with miniscule differences. 

Now if you look at the snow media what is there for you guys in terms of content to read? Frequency is the only magazine that comes to mind and that's really just more of a coffee table book (which is awesome), but as far as websites? What's out there for you guys?


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## f00bar (Mar 6, 2014)

The other thing they need to do is make people realize that you can ride without being a park rat. With alpine we grew up watching the Olympics. Yes, they are going crazy speed in the downhill, and the slalom was sick. But they were going down 'regular' slopes. Even though you knew you'd never get there, it all seemed attainable and we knew if we did our pizza and french fry we were starting out just like they did.

Now, turn on the Olympics and you see people doing crazy stuff I can't even pronounce on a half pipe and the insanity of rails and some sort of roller derby looking type event. Sure it's cool, but the majority are shaking there heads saying "no way is my kid breaking his neck" and the entry point into the sport seems unattainable because the whole "guess what, these guys started off on a regular slope just like the skiers" isn't obvious.


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## larrytbull (Oct 30, 2013)

right there with you. At My age, I want to see a park that doesn't have extreme features, but doable for a person with my ailments.
perhaps a special olympics for old timers


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## kosmoz (Dec 27, 2013)

Judging in slopestyle changed for good, olympic gold was won not by most corks and degrees, but by style and joy of shreding:thumbsup:


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## f00bar (Mar 6, 2014)

larrytbull said:


> right there with you. At My age, I want to see a park that doesn't have extreme features, but doable for a person with my ailments.
> perhaps a special olympics for old timers


At least for the smaller areas i can see where its tough to have 3 levels of park. So I think you usually get one with a few boxes and little jumps, and then a full up park.

What they need to show for the general public is that its perfectly ok and normal to also just cruise the groomers all day just like the skiers and you'll have more fun doing it.

The general public sees skiing as a recreational sport, oh and if you are really good you can get a gold medal in it too. Snowboarding they see as the x games. It got them a ton of exposure really fast. But that doesn't necessarily mean it gets participants.


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## f00bar (Mar 6, 2014)

Now my rant on local shops. For the most part they suck. I'm in Western Mass, not hill country, but we are under 2hr from most of Vermont and there are plenty who partake. We are down to like 3 shops in the area. And they all suck. Maybe it's my age, but when I was first looking for stuff it was almost as if I was interrupting them coming in. They point me to the generic burton/k2/whatever and offer no real insight as to why I should buy it. Half the reason to go to a local shop is to learn about what you are buying, not just be peddled and pushed out the door.

While this place may have 400 pages of why Mervin sucks in a thread, at least it's people on either side showing a bit of passion. The local shops all seem to lack that now.


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## larrytbull (Oct 30, 2013)

Agree completely. I thought I was too old and broken to board. I was lucky local ski/board shop corrected my perception. I am prime example of cruiser on groomers, with a little upfront pain I feel confident on most slopes I can control myself . I never felt same feeling on skis. If there was a campaign that said knees killing you, your feet hurt in those clunky boots,
Try snowboarding.....


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## BurtonAvenger (Aug 14, 2007)

f00bar said:


> Now my rant on local shops. For the most part they suck. I'm in Western Mass, not hill country, but we are under 2hr from most of Vermont and there are plenty who partake. We are down to like 3 shops in the area. And they all suck. Maybe it's my age, but when I was first looking for stuff it was almost as if I was interrupting them coming in. They point me to the generic burton/k2/whatever and offer no real insight as to why I should buy it. Half the reason to go to a local shop is to learn about what you are buying, not just be peddled and pushed out the door.
> 
> While this place may have 400 pages of why Mervin sucks in a thread, at least it's people on either side showing a bit of passion. The local shops all seem to lack that now.


This is the thing that mystifies me about any shop. I get the same vibe and I probably look the part more than you.

I will say people like you were always my favorite customers, just generally stoked to be sold a toy to freedom. 

I used to love getting customers like you 1. Because generally after 10 minutes of talking I would be selling you a lot of stuff. 2. If I stoked you out, I knew you were coming back with the rest of the family which meant more sales. 

I've worked in a lot of varying shops from big corporate to small core and regardless of shop I always tried to sell whomever came in what they needed and push what they wanted. The good sales people are just few and far between.


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## tokyo_dom (Jan 7, 2013)

Completely different country i guess and i have no idea of the demographics here except that from what i can see it is still 90% of young people on snowboards (freestyle skiing hasnt taken off yet), and the old timers (40-50+) are probably at 80/20 skiiers to boarders.

But talking about product sales; I really dont like ordering stuff on the internet and waiting, i get MUCH more satisfaction walking into a store and walking out with my goods. BUT i am a cheapskate, i want to partake in this sport without spending a lot of money. And to do that, i need to stick with past season gear...

With the shops around here (Tokyo), 95% of it is latest season full RRP stuff. I'm not sure what they do with the past season stuff, but i hardly ever see anything on sale (and if so, its like 10% off). All the past season stuff seems to be sold online, so i end up shopping online for my major goods


There is actually ONE shop i know of that sells past season stock exclusively here. And I visit this shop several times during winter. Their selection is small, but sometimes you find a bargain.

If the other shops around here were able to somehow sell past season stock (at discount) next to the new season stock i would be shopping there too. Not sure how that goes from a business standpoint; i think there will always be those who want the latest gear with the latest features.

Or am i living in fantasy land?


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## Jed (May 11, 2011)

Yeah the big issue I see with sales people is that they kind of put the sales person as the least important job that they fill in with 'whoever', then they shove them out there with next to no training and say good luck.

It should be the complete opposite way. The sales person is one of the most important jobs since they're not only your face to face customer service, but they're the employees that new customers are expecting to know their stuff when it comes to getting the right gear for them and delivering a good customer experience.



tokyo_dom said:


> Completely different country i guess and i have no idea of the demographics here except that from what i can see it is still 90% of young people on snowboards (freestyle skiing hasnt taken off yet), and the old timers (40-50+) are probably at 80/20 skiiers to boarders.
> 
> But talking about product sales; I really dont like ordering stuff on the internet and waiting, i get MUCH more satisfaction walking into a store and walking out with my goods. BUT i am a cheapskate, i want to partake in this sport without spending a lot of money. And to do that, i need to stick with past season gear...


It's likely just cultural differences.

From my experience, Japan is a lot like Korea in that everything is very 'online' and it's basically expected that you go online and get things delivered to you. People are a lot more digital and plugged in compared to other countries.

There's also that whole culture where people don't want old/used things, even more so than in the western countries. Like how you can leave your bike anywhere without a lock and no one will steal it because used bikes are seen was low value.

I'm sure you know yourself, but image is just such a huge deal in Japan and Korea. Brand name goods and having the new updated item seem even more crazy important here to put up a good image of yourself. I'd wager that factors in a lot to the whole 'no previous year snowboards' at shops.

Heck, I remember visiting Tokyo a few years back and seeing the massive 1 hour+ line to get Krispy Kreme in Shinjuku just because it was the new 'in' thing from America.


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## tokyo_dom (Jan 7, 2013)

Absolutely, having the latest goods/trends/style is definitely important here. Past season stuff with barely any use goes for 1/4 of the price on auctions. But it isnt so much online shopping here (well at least it isnt for snowboard gear Tokyo). The auctions, dont really have many bidders and its easy to get bargains there.

And the shops here are still making money i guess, because when people spend here, they spend big. A twice a year snowboarder would probably have no problems dropping $1500 on current season brand name gear. During winter time every time i head to that area (it is a specific area in Tokyo where a lot of the shops are) the shops do have customers. 

So my suggestion may not be so important here in Tokyo; but then again, it would allow *me* to be a part of the group helping to keep these brick & mortar shops in business, rather than feeling a bit guilty, like i did last week scooping a set of Flow Five bindings for $90 on auction (around $350 in the shops)


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## neni (Dec 24, 2012)

I've observe the same trend over here. While in mid 90/early 2000 all friends were trying snowboarding, now most of them ski. Back then, to learn snowboarding was hot and not very harder to pick up as skiing with the lattice fence like skis - both PITA. When the carving skies appeared, picking up skiing became much easier, even someone just spending a once a year holiday on mtns were now able to get a decent level and enjoy. Guess, the new board shapes lessen that learning curves gap a bit.

With board shops I think there was a healthy shakeout. The ones with good staff are still there (tho they suffer from online shopping as well). As the big stores followed sales trends and have reduced their selection, the small local ones could fill the gap. In my city, the small shops - even tho indepently owned - work together. Each one has its niche, (e.g. they have divided the brands, one is freestyle oriented, one has concentrated on splitboards, a.s.o.), and they will send you to the other shop if you ask them for a specific brand they don't have. Thus the $ for my gear is spread over 4 shops.

I second f00bars comment. The "industry" seems to have forgotten the older dudes. It still tries to sell itself as young/rebel. Well, we've been there 20y ago... now most of the former "rebels" have good jobs n kids . I'm no marketing expert... but wouldn't it eg. be something to promote "family" packages, like a kids n parent board package. Oh and yes, the knee gummers and skiboot PITA points should be exploited. I tried snowboarding cos it was hot, but - besides loving it anyway - I also stayed with it cos my knees were damaged from ski races too many times. Having had both feet on one plank fixed the first time, I knew, that's my thing :thumbsup:


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## f00bar (Mar 6, 2014)

To make things worse it's also in the same boat as golf. Dick's (Big sporting goods chain in the US) golf sales are down 20% this year. That is huge for them as its by far their biggest department revenue wise. They want to blame it on Tiger Woods downturn physically and the fact he lost face when it turned out he was a dirt bag. The truth is the recession kicked in and people had to stop buying those $500 drivers and cut back on greens. Once the trend of buying a new club every year is broken you find people realizing they really don't need to do it.

I agree with Neni with the shaped skis taking a little bit of the wind from Snowboardings sails. Almost overnight everyone was saying 'have you seen the new short shaped skis that are so easy to carve with?' Snowboarding manufacturers need to make known that they have boards that are made to help you not catch edges and face plant. And they need to do it without confusion and getting into rocker this and camber that with special K hybrid blah blah blah. Shaped skis == easier to ski with, and they're called shaped regardless of brand.


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## BurtonAvenger (Aug 14, 2007)

Dicks just let 550 Golf Pros go. Their decline in sales is actually something they brought on their self with their partnership with Taylor Made as well as the golf industry pushing up delivery time of new product. In the current state they're in to sell a new driver you have roughly 3 to 6 months to sell it before it just sits there and ordering 20k units doesn't help. There's some other factors as well like the recession too. 

The camber story is too broad across the board in general in my opinion. Everyone has some weird fucking name like double pentagram quadrilogy kinked rocker reverse double loopsy doopsy.


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## neni (Dec 24, 2012)

f00bar said:


> And they need to do it without confusion and getting into rocker this with special K hybrid blah blah blah.


+1. Honestly, after short time on their homepage, I declined to spend another second to try to understand the C2 C3 bla stuff and thought, I'll stay with brands that use words I understand...



BurtonAvenger said:


> The camber story is too broad across the board in general in my opinion. Everyone has some weird fucking name like double pentagram quadrilogy kinked rocker reverse double loopsy doopsy.


Ever tried to make a them (someone?) understand that it's not helpful? If so, seriously interested in the answer. 
Some marketing nerds may think it's a gimmick but I'd assume it's rather contra productive :dunno:


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## BurtonAvenger (Aug 14, 2007)

Oh I've told numerous marketing people at brands about this. It needs to be a straight forward story. The problem is there's a lack of communication and a huge disconnect from companies to reps to sales people to the consumer. The story of it just gets lost because no one is willing to listen to anyone. That's one of the reasons in the reviews I do I break down what kind of camber profile it is and how it works.


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## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

Good topic. And the pod cast was really nice and i would say accurate. I agree with almost everything.

Although i buy from physical shops, everytime i walk into one i think the same: how can this compete with online shops while paying for this premium location?

An online shop can basically operate out of a dude's basement.

Also.... our economic system is shit. We all basically work for banks, politicians and a few major corporations making all the money. As a result, any bussiness needs huge revenues to make it by, but almost all earnings go to the big boys. Mom & Pop could run a shop 20 yrs ago at a 10% profit, today they'd need 50% just to survive.

Same with salaries... all i make goes to pay for politicians (ie taxes), banks (ie rent, mortgage, car payments etc), big boys (ie gas money, telephone/internet, groceries, insurance and all the other bullshit companies robbing us).

So whoever makes any business not targeted to the Miley Cyrus, Kardashians and Ronaldos of the world will have to deal with "recession". The truth is, there's no recession; it's simply that Puff daddy, Beyonce, Brad Pitt, Ronaldo, corrupt politicians and oil kings have all the $. And those guys ain't snowboarding.


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## cerebroside (Nov 6, 2012)

f00bar said:


> It's failing because they are marketing to a crowd that doesn't have a ton of disposable cash. That makes it hard to turn a profit.
> 
> In my opinion they need to do a better job of letting those older who may have kids to start out know that it really isn't as hard as it seems, even at 35+. In 1978 or so when I was in 2nd grade myself and my 2 years older brother started skiing. Within 5 years not only was my father but my mother was also and she was a total Joan Cleaver, didn't even have a license at the time. How inviting is snowboarding for that?
> 
> That was actually a common thing. Kids first, followed by parents. Snowboarding is intimidating. It doesn't have to be. They need to market the heck out of the beginner equipment with full rocker, training wheels and a bidet if need be and get people in the door, then in a few years upsell them.


Just quoting this from the first page because I find it very accurate, specifically the 'marketing towards people who don't have disposable income' part.

I like my local snowboard shop, and the staff are pretty damn knowledgeable, but I feel kinda out of place walking in there after work wearing a dress shirt. And I'm just an average dude in his late twenties who can barely afford to buy one board a year, I can't image older people feeling welcome. They sell skateboards and skate apparel over the summer.

Compare that to the bike shop I go to, where the target audience seems to be 40+ year olds who can afford ridiculously expensive road bikes. They sell skis over the winter. Go figure.


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## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

Ah yeah, really strong point about the "core" audience... Totally true.

Snowboarding does market itself as a hardcore thing for hardcore people. When seriously, the people who support an industry are the ones who would go riding a few days a year and chill and have fun on the green slopes. Yeah, you need to keep folks interested in the long term with the Billy Goats and Triple blacks........ 

But for the most part... can i just get a board and chill? you know ride down, look cool, not faceplant, take a selfie on the lift, drink a capuccino at the end of the day.

Sounds like a good plan, but you walk into a shop and ask for that and you get eye rolls or directed to the crap or super expensive equipment just out of spite... that's no good. So yea defintely agree with all you guys.


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## neni (Dec 24, 2012)

BurtonAvenger said:


> The problem is there's a lack of communication and a huge disconnect from companies to reps to sales people to the consumer. The story of it just gets lost because no one is willing to listen to anyone.


Hmmm... they're just not feeling enough pressure from declining sales yet...*



cerebroside said:


> I like my local snowboard shop, and the staff are pretty damn knowledgeable, but I feel kinda out of place walking in there after work wearing a dress shirt. And I'm just an average dude in his late twenties who can barely afford to buy one board a year, I can't image older people feeling welcome. They sell skateboards and skate apparel over the summer.


Haha, I feel like an alien in the freestyle oriented summer skate mutated shop where all guys seem to be half the age as me . But still, it can be interesting to visit that kind of shop if they're stoked and try to understand what you're looking at.

I just won't put a feet again into a shop where the shop kid just takes a quick look and then grabs a randomn board saying "now this would be a great board for you, it's pink with flowers!"* Fail in so many ways... I kind of feel pity for the owner of that shop. But then again, its his responsibility to educate his staff. Oh well...


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