# Heatmolding liner & insole guidance?



## auben (Feb 24, 2018)

Hey all, new boots just arrived & was hoping for some pointers on heat molding to add a little volume(inside the boot).
but i ended up I took em to a shop instead.

I've researched all the different methods of heat molding liners from the '..harden up & ride them in, it's better to suffer' brigade, to wondering if i've accidentally stumbled onto some weird swedish cooking show with Hans & his pot of boiling hot saltwater - not kidding.(see below)

stage1:
Got the boots heated on the blower machine for 12 mins.
Wore my normal boardriding sock - no toe cap(i wanted the liner to conform to my actual foot.
Did the liner laces, inner boot harness, liner power strap & shell laces up real tight.
kicked my heels against the floor a couple times to push my foot into the heel pocket.
Stood on an incline with my toes up so gravity pulled my heels back into the pocket.
Bent knees slightly.
Stood still for nearly 20 mins. 
remove feet & leave to cool.

stage2:
take them boarding & see how they go.
Will note any pressure points/pain at that point & if needed, go back for a second heatmold and/or look into insole options.

Anyways hope that all seems reasonable & not broken any cardinal rules.
cheers all


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## auben (Feb 24, 2018)

*waste of time..*

well that professional boot fitting didn't do anything.
No perceptible change in liner fit, same toes jammed against the end & a thick wad of foam still behind the heel.

so back to plan A. 
do it right, do it yourself.:laugh2:


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## mmk2245 (Jan 15, 2018)

auben said:


> well that professional boot fitting didn't do anything.
> No perceptible change in liner fit, same toes jammed against the end & a thick wad of foam still behind the heel.
> 
> so back to plan A.
> do it right, do it yourself.:laugh2:


Whats the DIY method?


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## mmk2245 (Jan 15, 2018)

auben said:


> well that professional boot fitting didn't do anything.
> No perceptible change in liner fit, same toes jammed against the end & a thick wad of foam still behind the heel.
> 
> so back to plan A.
> do it right, do it yourself.:laugh2:


Whats the DIY method?


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## auben (Feb 24, 2018)

i think more accurate temperature control is gonna be a good starting point for me.
the rest is going to be based on my own experiences heat molding liners & a distillation of other people's experiences.
Then I'll just do what makes sense to me, make a plan & make adjustments as i go.
DIY - i'm just gonna back myself.

Have You got a method that works for You?
cheers


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## mmk2245 (Jan 15, 2018)

auben said:


> i think more accurate temperature control is gonna be a good starting point for me.
> the rest is going to be based on my own experiences heat molding liners & a distillation of other people's experiences.
> Then I'll just do what makes sense to me, make a plan & make adjustments as i go.
> DIY - i'm just gonna back myself.
> ...


Unfortunately not - was curious how others do it. Lots of varying opinions online


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## Aracan (Nov 24, 2017)

I have only ever cooked thermo liners for hardboots, with limited success. Some observations: 
- I am not sure what you mean by "adding volume". To your foot or to the liner? It is not possible to get the liners to fill the outer boot better, since once heated, you can only compress them to achieve a fit. If you have excess space to fill (because of e.g. a narrow foot), you need to add padding manually (or go for an injection-molded liner). 

The following is best done with a helper. If your liners are work different, the process described hereafter may destroy them. 
- Pad foot liberally (with folded kitchen tissue, held in place with duct tape or similar). Pay especial attention to the ankles, toes and known pressure points.
- Do use (or fashion from household materials) a toecap. No fun in not being able to wiggle your toes.
- Do use footbeds. Wear them inside your socks to hold them in place.
- I never used a heat gun, I always heated the liners in my kitchen oven. Pre-heat to about 110°C, SET TO CONVECTION, put in the liner (one at a time, my oven is not big enough for both). Cook for about 10 minutes. The liner is done "when it has the exact same consistency as a silicone breast implant", according to one online source. 
- When the liner is ready, QUICKLY put it on your foot, QUICKLY pull a nylon stocking over it to hold everything in place. Make sure the liner is aligned with your foot properly. QUICKLY put on the outer boot. Kick the heel a few times. Close the boot firmly (more firmly than you would close it for riding). 
- Stand still with your toes on 2x4 or a phone book to achieve some negative ramp angle, for about 20 minutes. 
- Walk around for about 15 minutes.

Done.


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## SGboarder (Jun 24, 2012)

Aracan said:


> I have only ever cooked thermo liners for hardboots, with limited success. Some observations:
> - I am not sure what you mean by "adding volume". To your foot or to the liner? It is not possible to get the liners to fill the outer boot better, since once heated, you can only compress them to achieve a fit. If you have excess space to fill (because of e.g. a narrow foot), you need to add padding manually (or go for an injection-molded liner).
> 
> The following is best done with a helper. If your liners are work different, the process described hereafter may destroy them.
> ...


Wow, almost everything in this post is wrong. For better instructions look here: http://www.snowboardingforum.com/boots/225057-heat-fit-faq-love-your-feet.html


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## Aracan (Nov 24, 2017)

> Wow, almost everything in this post is wrong.


Did you notice the disclaimers at the beginning and in the middle of my post? I accurately described the process of molding thermo liners for hardboots. If one does not need wiggle room in softies, if it's better to stand on a flat surface (wouldn't work in hardboots which typically have a lot more ramp angle than softies), if thermos are done in 3 minutes - just go ahead. I know how mine were done (by myself and by people earning their livelihood with, among other things, bootfitting).


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## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

auben said:


> Hey all, new boots just arrived & was hoping for some pointers on heat molding to add a little volume.
> Ended up I took em to a shop instead.
> 
> I've researched all the different methods of heat molding liners from the '..harden up & ride them in, it's better to suffer' brigade, to wondering if i've accidentally stumbled onto some weird swedish cooking show with Hans & his pot of boiling hot saltwater - not kidding.(see below)
> ...


Whoa. Heat molding does not add volume.

The only thing that adds volume is...... adding volume (ie material). 
Either via thicker foam, adding Jbars, C's, etc or adding a thicker footbed or thicker socks.

Not sure what issues you may have, but most likely your boots don't fit. 

Go to a shop, try a bunch of boots. There's going to be one that will feel great. Start from there...


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## f00bar (Mar 6, 2014)

F1EA said:


> Whoa. Heat molding does not add volume.
> 
> The only thing that adds volume is...... adding volume (ie material).
> Either via thicker foam, adding Jbars, C's, etc or adding a thicker footbed or thicker socks.
> ...


I think you are saying the same thing from opposite ends. Volume of air/foot space vs volume of foam.


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## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

f00bar said:


> I think you are saying the same thing from opposite ends. Volume of air/foot space vs volume of foam.


hmmmm ok I see. How would heating a liner add volume to your feet?? and how is adding void space, the same as adding volume??

He wants to make the boots less tight.

Then yeah. Heat molding will rearrange the liner volume to make some extra room locally. Even normally wearing the boots will reduce liner volume as most liners are not 100% heat moldable foam and so they pack out = lose volume over time.

If the boots are too tight, they are too small. You can either use a thinner footbed, thinner socks, heat mold with really tight laces, shave some liner volume, etc etc. Still... it's very likely the boots simply don't fit. Either too short or too narrow.

Personally, I believe in ZERO pain. There's enough boot makers out there.... there has to be a pair of boots that fit reasonably well from the start to take it from there.

A lot of people get it wrong because:
- fall in love with a boot brand/color/pro model etc... 
- measure their feet wrongly. It's very very easy to make a mistake measuring your feet. Yet, it is very easy to tell if a boot doesn't fit by just trying it on.
- read a lot of reviews and discussions.... all feet are different.
- think they SHOULD be in a certain size...


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## auben (Feb 24, 2018)

*oops*

Hey really sorry Guys, I meant i needed to add volume inside the boot (i want to make more room for my foot(particularly lengthwise in this case). apologize for the confusion.

Even with the differing approaches i can see some useful stuff in there.

I'm not blaming the fitter either, they followed a process they know & I canlearn from what's been done so far.
i have the big advantage of knowing my own feet to start with & being able to feel the difference.
it can't be easy for the fitters who have to rely heavily on clear communication & feedback.
my gut feeling is the we didn't heat either hot or long enough & i'd change/tweak a couple of the steps we followed

my step 1 will be checking the specs on the liner & going from there.
my heating appliance is controllable & accurate so that ticks off another thing on my list.

appreciate the input people & acknowledge there's more than 1 way to skin this cat.:laugh2:
i don't think its black or white, best of breed should cover it.

I want to approach it as if someone else was paying ME to do THEIR boots, i'd use the small muscle first & focus on the detail.


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## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

auben said:


> i have the big advantage of knowing my own feet to start with & being able to feel the difference.
> it can't be easy for the fitters who have to rely heavily on clear communication & feedback.


This is the key. Boot fitters need all those measurements and little details to get you correctly fitted as they don't exactly know how things feel.

Because nobody knows your foot/boot size..... the first thing to know is.... what is your measured foot length, width and what size are the boots you're trying to get fitted on ?

Your measurement will likely be off.... so you're going to get 100 +1 opinions on which size boots you should get. Then you're going to try and force-fit yourself into them.


So how about..... why not just go to a shop and try a few boots and pick the ones that fit the best? 

If your current boots feel too tight.... why not check the same boots in 0.5 size bigger?? or try a different boot in the same size and see how they compare.

A boot that fits properly will allow ZERO movement in the heel and will have ZERO discomfort. The boot will feel tight, but in a nice way.

If you start with some movement and some discomfort already in the shop.... it's going to get 1,000,000x worse on the mountain once you get to ride the boots.


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## auben (Feb 24, 2018)

F1EA said:


> ..So how about..... why not just go to a shop and try a few boots and pick the ones that fit the best?


I hear ya F1..
I did do that last year, unfortunately it didn't work out, it was ok but not amazing & i had issues which came on over the season as the length packed out through riding & created too much space at the toe. my foot was moving slightly fore/aft with rubbish heel hold.
its my own fault for trying to compensate for width with length, at that time.(didnt know any better).
later i even got insoles with good heel pocket to deal with the heel hold(wrong solution) cos i didn't consider the increased volume of the insole at the mid& forefoot which cramped my foot more, so i ended up too big AND too small at the same time and in pain.
It was only WS & Matty's wide boot thread that really forced me to rethink stuff & gave me the confidence to make a change.
I'm in a slightly wider fitting boot now(with a more 'packable' liner & I believe i am now in the correct mondo length, i went half size down from last year.
If i'd gone half size up i think i'd be happy right now, but as the season wore on...not so sure. 
it feels like i only need 2-3mm up front to go from 'jammed' to 'tight'.
the heel foam feels about 6mm thick & i just want to access a bit of that to bring my foot back. 
then i think i can ride & let the boot pack out the rest over time. 
The first heatmold didn't do it.

appreciate the replies


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## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

Ahhh got it.
Well... you're doing the measure-your-foot-and-force-yourself-into-a-boot-because-that's-the-size-you-"should"-be-wearing thing......


An aggressive heat mold MAY move around some liner volume to free up some space where you need it. Also, you could probably shave some off the liner to add more room...... I would not do this though. I would instead find a boot that fits better if the boots are returnable.

All boots will pack out. The higher end liners will pack out a bit less; then the really good liners will not pack out at all (but I don't think you can find these stock in any regular snowboard boots - almost everyone adds open cell foam which will pack out, in exchange for better out the box fit). 

But if you have already ridden the boots a few times... AND heat molded them with a real boot heater..... then it is unlikely you're going to solve the issue through more heat molding. You're into trim your liner territory. So maybe a visit to a real bootfitter; but not just to a shop with some shop kid heat molding your boots. That's not a professional boot fit. Go to a real boot fitter.


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## auben (Feb 24, 2018)

F1EA said:


> Ahhh got it.
> Well... you're doing the measure-your-foot-and-force-yourself-into-a-boot-because-that's-the-size-you-"should"-be-wearing thing......


yeah:grin:

but i was trying for the..
"measure-your-foot-and-fit-yourself-into-a-boot-utilising-the-moldable-properties-of-the-liner" thing...>

hey, i could be barking way up the wrong tree.. like most idiots ..i'm rather determined.:laugh2::laugh2:

cheers all


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## motleybeast (Mar 25, 2015)

auben said:


> yeah:grin:
> 
> but i was trying for the..
> "measure-your-foot-and-fit-yourself-into-a-boot-utilising-the-moldable-properties-of-the-liner" thing...>
> ...


Really interested to see how you go with all of this. As you're well aware, finding anywhere that knows what they're doing with regards to boot fitting on the North Island is a nightmare. I haven't found anywhere yet!


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## Wiredsport (Sep 16, 2009)

Hi Auben,

What boot model and size did you end up with?

STOKED!


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## auben (Feb 24, 2018)

Roger that! MotleyBeast, not many around these parts definitely no fulltime ones we just don't have the numbers to justify it.

I will update as i go 

cheers all


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## auben (Feb 24, 2018)

Wiredsport said:


> Hi Auben,
> 
> What boot model and size did you end up with?
> 
> STOKED!


hey Wired.. welcome to amateur hour, feel free to roll your eyes at any time.
i went to a thirtytwo tm-2 xlt 2016 in a mondo 280(US10/UK9) for my 277mm&272mm feet. i'm downsizing from a 285(us10.5/UK9.5) 
my 3 reasons were. 
the brand is generally considered a less narrow fitting brand by most accounts. 
They have a reputation for the liners packing out(more room again).
It has a stiff flex rating which gives me the lateral support that i like.
cheers


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## Wiredsport (Sep 16, 2009)

auben said:


> hey Wired.. welcome to amateur hour, feel free to roll your eyes at any time.
> i went to a thirtytwo tm-2 xlt 2016 in a mondo 280(US10/UK9) for my 277mm&272mm feet. i'm downsizing from a 285(us10.5/UK9.5)
> my 3 reasons were.
> the brand is generally considered a less narrow fitting brand by most accounts.
> ...


Hmmmmmmm 

My suggestion was for the Burton Ruler Wide. It is designed for an EEE foot which will accommodate your EE width foot.

"Generally considered" but sadly, _specifically_ incorrect.  32 boots use multiple lasts, none of which should be considered wide. You have an EE foot. A heat fit will not solve this for you regardless of method.


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## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

auben said:


> yeah:grin:
> 
> but i was trying for the..
> "measure-your-foot-and-fit-yourself-into-a-boot-utilising-the-moldable-properties-of-the-liner" thing...>
> ...


hahaha ok 

You'll be able to force some room in your liners/boots, but it will not be too much, it's likely your boots are too small (in either length or width)...


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## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

Wiredsport said:


> Hmmmmmmm
> 
> My suggestion was for the Burton Ruler Wide. It is designed for an EEE foot which will accommodate your EE width foot.
> 
> "Generally considered" but sadly, _specifically_ incorrect.  32 boots use multiple lasts, none of which should be considered wide. You have an EE foot. A heat fit will not solve this for you regardless of method.


This ^

I use ThirtyTwo and they are DEFINITELY not wide. Especially the TM2.


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## f00bar (Mar 6, 2014)

F1EA said:


> This ^
> 
> I use ThirtyTwo and they are DEFINITELY not wide. Especially the TM2.


While they may not be wide enough to be labeled a wide, are they typically not a good fit for people with a narrow foot? 

I ask this because the very first boots I every tried were 32s and I swam in them width wise, but I have narrow feet I think. I mentioned it to the guy in the store and he said they run wider than some other boots. But wider doesn't necessarily mean wide enough to be labled a wide boot. So I've always avoided 32s out of the gate.

However, being my first boots to try on and they were also likely too large length wise, so maybe I should reconsider them?


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## Snowdaddy (Feb 2, 2018)

I heat molded my Burtons with microwaved ride and and some piece of wood under my toes of my boots to get the proper angle. Seems to have worked out fine. I cut up a couple of socks (from some tip online) to get some extra space for my toes.


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## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

f00bar said:


> While they may not be wide enough to be labeled a wide, are they typically not a good fit for people with a narrow foot?
> 
> I ask this because the very first boots I every tried were 32s and I swam in them width wise, but I have narrow feet I think. I mentioned it to the guy in the store and he said they run wider than some other boots. But wider doesn't necessarily mean wide enough to be labled a wide boot. So I've always avoided 32s out of the gate.
> 
> However, being my first boots to try on and they were also likely too large length wise, so maybe I should reconsider them?


Yep I know. It's weird. I keep hearing stories and people saying how ThirtyTwo run wide... but I find the absolute opposite. Specially with the TM2, which I've felt have been the narrowest of the boots i've tried.

My feet are "certified" narrow haha and I have tried a bunch of different boots... Vans, Salomon, K2, DC, Burton, Adidas and a few more....
Vans, Salomon and Adidas were too wide at the heel
DC and K2 wide all over.
Burton way too wide on the toes.

The only boots I can get to hold my heel from day 1 are ThirtyTwo. And this is at half size above my mondo (all those other boots, I tried at US10.5 and I still get heel lift at the store... whereas my 32 are US11 and I get zero lift at the store). I can normally use them for about one season (like 30-40 days) without getting lift, but after that I start getting heel lift.

Right now I am using a pro-fitted size 280mm Intuition High Volume Luxury liner, in a US11 (290mm) 32 Prime shell. Tried a bunch of their liners and that was the best fit (but I still needed to add J bars to the heel). My heels are LOCKED. And the liner is 100% intuition foam, so it does not pack out, I can re-heat mold many many times, and it's actually pretty stiff.

So now I can get pretty much any shell I want and just drop my liners in.....


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## auben (Feb 24, 2018)

Ok Project abandoned.


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## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

auben said:


> Ok Project abandoned.


hahaha

Yep. Those boots don't fit.


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