# Upgrading gear after 10 years... Stiff Bindings? (NE, USA)



## herjazz (Feb 20, 2013)

Hi all, I'm glad I found this forum, lots of great discussions here. Spent a good few hours reading through stuff via searches. I still have some questions that wasn't answered elsewhere only because everyone's situation and preference is different... So I'd appreciate some advice:

I started boarding in 2001. So it's been 12 years. Used to go every weekend when I started, but these days, it's a few times a season.

Here's the essential info:
Location: 95% spent in Northeast: Vermont (Mt. Snow, Stratton, Sugarbush, Killington, etc.), NY (Hunter).
Style: 95% Groomed Trails, many times with ice or really hard packed snow. Almost never go to the park, maybe a few jumps, but these days, I'm really about the thrill of the speed going down, carving and using the whole width of the path, and just enjoying the scenery. I use both edges, comfortable on both edges, almost never flat ride it, always on an edge even if going straight I alternate heel and toe. I guess this is called "Freeride" style? Normally on fast blues and blacks. I don't see much powder (used to take trips to Canada or West, but I'm guessing once a season or two nowadays). I ride directional, almost never switch, so don't need a twin tip board.

Height: 5'5"
Weight: 130 lbs
Age: Late 30s
Stance: Regular
Binding Angles: Both front facing +24 front, +12 back
Shoe/Boot Size: US 10

Current Gear:
153cm Burton Clash (2002)
Drake F-60 Bindings Medium Size, Yellow/Black (2001 or 2002?)
Salomon F22 Boots (2009 or 2008?)


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Basically I'm riding with same gear I bought my second season out in 2002. First season I rented, then got a Burton Cruzer, then sold it and got what I have now. (Except boots, I upgraded a few years ago because the old one broke and also pinched/hurt my heels.) So now I'm looking to upgrade the gear. What I want from new gear:

1) Be able to ride stable and fast (my style of riding), quick response board so that I can make turns quickly and stop quickly. Again, I ride on the edges, heel and toe even if going in a relatively straight path down.

2) Keep what I like about my current setup, just update it with 10 more years of technology?
--> What I like about current setup: 1) Bindings are response and the stiffness is good. 2) I like the high back, makes it quick to turn and go where I want to go. 3) Boots are very comfortable and I'm not changing it.
--> What I don't like about current: 1) I want a toe strap on bindings that cover the toe and push it back towards heel. Mine just straps to the top, so I put it at the edge of the toe. This is to get the back of my boots tight against the high back for the control/response I like. I normally have to tighten a second time after strapping in and riding for a minute to get it snug and tight the way I like. 2) I board feels a bit heavy, I want something that's a bit more maneuverable, quick turning, i.e. not be afraid to go down moguls.

BOARD
So I punched in my preferences on the Burton snowboard selector and it spits out Custom Flying V in 148. I change parameters a little bit and it's always the #1 choice according to them... And just happened to find a great deal on the 2013 Custom Flying V, so I didn't really think much and ordered it. Now I'm wondering if that was the right choice (it's not a traditional camber board, but I think that's what is best for my style, right? At least it's directional.) I’m not dead set on a Burton board, but 

BINDINGS
At that time, I was told to get the best bindings I can afford, so the Drake F-60s I believe were top of the line back then and I really liked the stiffness and response. What bindings are equivalent to those now? Seems like everything I research are flexible bindings (e.g. hinges on bindings that make it move laterally??). I’m not sure I’d like that. I want them stiff so that whatever force I transmit through my boots, the board responds right away… I guess I have an ICS Board, so I need to get EST. Or, if I can’t find anything worth buying now, keep the old Drakes and get an adapter plate to use with the ICS… 

BOOTS
Again, recently updated and I find them very comfy and I can get it tight on the foot portion and slightly loose on the calf portion just the way I like it, so I’m keeping the boots.

Thanks in advance!

>.<


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## DrEwTiMe (Dec 13, 2012)

Wow sounds like you have me beat lol, I just upgraded my board and bindings from 8 years ago . I would check out the union MC-Metafuse. They are super stiff but your gonna pay for them. Also check out the SL's( I just bought these) as they give a great all mountain feel that you can really take anywhere with you. The Burton cartels are also a all around favorite and a "safe" choice for most setups and you can get pretty good deal on them especially with end of season sales starting to pop up.


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## Lamps (Sep 3, 2011)

the one drawback with your board choice is that flying V isn't the best for icy conditions, some are adamant about this point while others list it as a minor detraction, but you've bought the board so see if you like it's edge hold on ice or not. If you could swap that order for a burton custom camber I'd do it given your location and riding style. Unless -- you can keep the flying V and on nasty icy days ride your old stick if you find it's edge hold is better. 

Cartels are a stiff binding at a good price. Stiffest burton binding is diodes, also lightest, also most expensive. 

The hinge technology is only on a couple of higher end burton bindings. I have a set of diodes and front to back they are super duper mega stiff/responsive. The lateral flex in the hinge only flexes laterally, makes ollies easier and doesn't sacrifice control/response - I expect it will become standard in the burton line over time. 

secondhand burton C60's are also super stiff and pretty light - forerunner to the diode binding - personally I would choose secondhand c60's over new cartels.


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## suburbanlegend8 (Nov 14, 2012)

With your riding style and conditions, as well as what you're used to, you're going to want a relatively stiff cambered board. I'd look at the Burton Custom (definitely not the flying V version if you are dealing with ice a lot), the Custom X if you want a really stiff board, Rome Crossrocket, Arbor Element CX, Rome Anthem, Salomon XLT, Salomon Burner, Slash ATV Hub, Nitro Blacklight are some other options. 

If you want to explore hybrid cambers which may be a little more playful and forgiving there are a ton of options. Never Summer, Lib Tech, etc. I'd stay away from Burton's hybrid shape for the type of riding you want to do, it's known for not having the best edge hold.

As far as bindings check out Rome, Union, Burton, and Raiden. See if you can go to your local shop, they all offer stiffer freeride/all mountain type bindings that are quality it mostly depends on which you like the fit and finish of the best. One of the big newer features is canting which angles the footbeds slightly inwards to take some pressure off your knees. A lot of people like that but it's a personal preference thing.


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## Nivek (Jan 24, 2008)

With two positive angles you are probably one of the few riders that will benefit more froma flat footbed vs a canted one. I would look into Raiden Phantoms, Flux DMCC's or SF45's, or Rome Targas.

For that style of riding the Burton finder has failed you. You need something more in the 153-156 range and stiff and probably camber. From B you're better off with a Custom X or Custom Camber. Not from Burton look into the Ride Berzerker, K2 Slayblade, Salomon Mans Board, Bataleon Omni, Signal OG, or a Nitro Blacklight.


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## Treegreen (Mar 16, 2012)

Nivek said:


> With two positive angles you are probably one of the few riders that will benefit more froma flat footbed vs a canted one. I would look into Raiden Phantoms, Flux DMCC's or SF45's, or Rome Targas.
> 
> For that style of riding the Burton finder has failed you. You need something more in the 153-156 range and stiff and probably camber. From B you're better off with a Custom X or Custom Camber. Not from Burton look into the Ride Berzerker, K2 Slayblade, Salomon Mans Board, Bataleon Omni, Signal OG, or a Nitro Blacklight.



You might also consider Rome Targas or Nitro Raiden Blackhawks (canted).

*EDIT* Nivek beat me to it.


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## herjazz (Feb 20, 2013)

Thank you for your responses!

I know, I should have read up a little bit more before jumping on buying a board >< I guess I can always sell it without much loss and get the right board for me. Sounds like a stiffer cambered board is the way to go. However, does that affect its maneuverability? I guess I can't have both: stability on smooth straights and maneuverability and quickness on moguls, tree runs, etc...

Obviously my skill level has increased a lot since I got my old board, so I might be able to experiment a bit (i.e. shorter or longer boards, stiffer or less stiff bindings, etc.).

I think I'm going to have to bring my boot down to a shop and just test out different types/brands of bindings to see what is "stiff enough" for me, I guess... But the suggestions above gives me a starting point, so thanks. I'll probably not get Burtons, unless they've improved since the last time I was shopping for them 10+ years ago when people all told me to not get Burton bindings and that's why I got the Drakes...

I'm most likely getting used equipment anyways (or last year's / old new stock) to get the most bang out of my buck. I don't mind spending money where I have to, but don't want to waste it either...


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## ETM (Aug 11, 2009)

I reckon you want a slalom board


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## Extremo (Nov 6, 2008)

herjazz said:


> Thank you for your responses!
> 
> I know, I should have read up a little bit more before jumping on buying a board >< I guess I can always sell it without much loss and get the right board for me. Sounds like a stiffer cambered board is the way to go. However, does that affect its maneuverability? I guess I can't have both: stability on smooth straights and maneuverability and quickness on moguls, tree runs, etc...
> 
> ...


I would recommend camber as well.

I'm surprised noone has mentioned the Ride El Hefe or the Raiden Machines.


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## Lamps (Sep 3, 2011)

herjazz said:


> Thank you for your responses!
> 
> I'll probably not get Burtons, unless they've improved since the last time I was shopping for them 10+ years ago when people all told me to not get Burton bindings and that's why I got the Drakes...
> 
> I'm most likely getting used equipment anyways (or last year's / old new stock) to get the most bang out of my buck. I don't mind spending money where I have to, but don't want to waste it either...


If you're an aggressive carving, speed oriented rider the Custom X would serve you very well, and while it's one of the more expensive boards out there it would not be money wasted. They are a relatively popular board for that degree of stiffness, so there are a lot of them on the used market. 

I just picked up a 2009 Custom X with C60 bindings, in near perfect condition for a friend of mine for C$400 from Craigslist. 

I wouldn't exclude Burton bindings, the medium to top end product is as good as the others.


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## East§ide (Mar 14, 2011)

i think for bindings a pair of cartels would serve you perfectly..or missions, as theyre basically last years cartels.


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## herjazz (Feb 20, 2013)

Extremo said:


> I would recommend camber as well.
> 
> I'm surprised noone has mentioned the Ride El Hefe or the Raiden Machines.


Thanks for the suggestions, I never heard of those before: Upon further reading, the Ride El Hefe seems to be a stiff binding that people like.... Although not as common? I can't seem to find any being sold used...


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## djmisio85 (Jan 22, 2013)

If you want some stiff, responsive, quality bindings, give the Salomon Calibers a try. I bought a pair this winter, and both myself and anyone who I let try out have loved them. I don't know why they don't get much of a mention on here, maybe simply cos they are not Burtons lol, but they are awesome.


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## nmk (Mar 4, 2012)

My son (12 yo) rides the Custom FV with an old C60 and nothing bothers him, pow, ice, hardback, jumps, ollies, powder... The board is pretty soft but I don't think he cares one bit, 12 and fearless. 

Are you in good physical condition? Do you want to keep the setup for next 10 years? If speed is your thing and playful is not part of the vocab, and you are on hardback and ice and if you want to stick with Burton, then get a used T6 or T7 or a CustomX. Expensive but solid boards for speed and edge hold. I had a T6 and 2 Custom X's and they were speed machines, fearless in icy conditions. Your Clash is more freestyle and if you do well with the Clash in crap condition now, you will love the Custom X. 

As for bindings, I just picked up the Diode for my son, big sale, and it is pretty awesome, light and stiff. I tend to avoid the EST bindings, I like to step on the screws and can use with other brands of boards. 

A Burton sales guy told me this year's Mission is quite stiff and great performance to value.


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## East§ide (Mar 14, 2011)

This years Missions are last years Cartels basically, and the Restricted Missions have the Asym strap also. Probably the best value for the buck


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## DrEwTiMe (Dec 13, 2012)

Extremo said:


> I would recommend camber as well.
> 
> I'm surprised noone has mentioned the Ride El Hefe or the Raiden Machines.



I was going to the El Hefe's but I have herd that Ride has an issue with the ladders getting chewed up. I can't confirm this completely except to say that after very light use I noticed that the toe strap ladder already had some minor damage. So I sent them( the Maestro's) back and opted for the Union SL's.


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## herjazz (Feb 20, 2013)

nmk said:


> Are you in good physical condition? Do you want to keep the setup for next 10 years? If speed is your thing and playful is not part of the vocab, and you are on hardback and ice and if you want to stick with Burton, then get a used T6 or T7 or a CustomX. Expensive but solid boards for speed and edge hold. I had a T6 and 2 Custom X's and they were speed machines, fearless in icy conditions. Your Clash is more freestyle and if you do well with the Clash in crap condition now, you will love the Custom X.


Yesterday, I went to both the local Burton flagship store in NYC and REI and checked out all the gear and talked to people (customers and salespeople). I saw the 2013 Clash and it's now a straight rocker (my old 2002 is definitely straight camber)... With a fresh coat of wax, I can tackle anything with my old Clash, ice, tree runs, moguls, whatever... but after a day, it slows down noticeably. (Maybe it's the extruded base, doesn't hold wax for long?) I'm looking around for used Custom X's, but maybe people who have them just hold on to them cos I don't see much for sale, lol...

In any case, I brought my boots and tried on all the Burton bindings at the Burton store, and also other bindings at REI (Flow, Ride, Salomon, Union)... Just from what I've tried, for the price, I liked the Burton Cartel Limited. And no one seems to know if I can get adapter plates for my old Drakes :/ So if I'm getting new bindings, I might as well get EST Burtons... So I'm 95% set on getting the Cartel EST Limited (which I'm told is a combo of Cartel top and Malavita/Genesis bottom w/Hinge). It sounds like and felt like the Hinge doesn't affect front and back (heel/toe) flex, but gave a nice forgiving side to side flex which i didn't mind and actually felt comfy. And it felt stiff enough as my old Drakes. So I think that's a good combo. I didn't think I would like it, but it's different when you actually try it! Of course who knows who it'll feel in real-life conditions...

Also, it seems like traditional straight camber boards are hard to find now. Almost everything is rocker or a hybrid rocker... :dunno:

So that's sort of where I stand now... Thanks again for all your input and the discussion!


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## herjazz (Feb 20, 2013)

Lamps said:


> The hinge technology is only on a couple of higher end burton bindings. I have a set of diodes and front to back they are super duper mega stiff/responsive. The lateral flex in the hinge only flexes laterally, makes ollies easier and doesn't sacrifice control/response - I expect it will become standard in the burton line over time.


^This. You said it well and this is what I experienced trying them out at the store... Quite a nice feature that doesn't affect the front/back stiffness.

They said it gives a more skateboard-type ride. Maybe cos I used to skateboard, I like it? Lol, I really didn't expect to like this Hinge business... If I get a Burton binding with Hinge, I definitely wanna test out some ollies to see how they feel


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## Lamps (Sep 3, 2011)

I see Custom X's quite frequently, try craigfind.com for craigslist metasearch. Quite a few listed on EBay too. 

good luck, that would be a nice setup with Cartels and then a stiff boot to complement it.


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## herjazz (Feb 20, 2013)

Lamps said:


> I see Custom X's quite frequently, try craigfind.com for craigslist metasearch. Quite a few listed on EBay too.
> 
> good luck, that would be a nice setup with Cartels and then a stiff boot to complement it.


Thanks~~ I guess what I meant is not a lot of good-priced used ones (when used ones are within 10% of what I can get off of big online retailers with their current end-of-season sale, then it's not worth getting them used...)

Anyways, I checked eBay again, and found an interesting "Series 13" (that was their made-to-order customizable line, right?) Custom X from someone local to me. It's a bit long (156cm) but good price and has the older 3D mount system (can use my old bindings, $$ saved)... Gonna see if I can get that one  http://www.ebay.com/itm/140919568275 (lol please don't bid on that board, it's mine!!!! hehe... j/k if it's meant to be, it's meant to be...)


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## wernersl (Dec 28, 2011)

To add to the binding list, provided you arent stuck with the ICS...take a look at Rome Arsenals. What I use on my raptor and they are a good stiff binding.


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## herjazz (Feb 20, 2013)

I'm picking up that 156cm Custom X Series 13 later today. It's a 2008? model so it has 3D pattern so can use my old bindings. I'm still gonna keep the 2013 148cm Custom Flying V and test it out as well. Hoping to do a 3-board comparison next weekend... 

I'm guessing that I'm gonna keep the Custom X for blasting down the mountain and the Flying V for more general purpose and powder. Prob. will sell or give away the old Clash...

As for EST bindings, I've settled on 2013 Cartel Limited EST, which is a blend of Cartel and other features from other bindings.

That's my update. I'm psyched to test out my new gear... I think a decade is a long time on the same gear lol...  Thanks for all the suggestions and discussion~!


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## herjazz (Feb 20, 2013)

WOOT! all waxed and edge tuned and ready to be test out next weekend! 
the Cartel EST bindings should be here tomorrow...

notice the obvious difference in lengths, haha...

L-R: 2002 Burton Clash (153cm), 2013 Burton Custom Flying V (148cm), 2008 Burton Custom X Series 13 (156cm)

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My old Drake F-60 bindings mounted on the Custom X: It's a longer board, but I tried to keep the stance as close to before (was 18" before) as possible as a starting point (17-18")-- currently this is the shortest I can get it on this longer board (using the innermost mounting hole locations). Overall it's set back more towards the tail. Curious to see how this rides, most definitely will need adjusting though...


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## herjazz (Feb 20, 2013)

Bad news :/ The Cartel EST Limited that I got today isn't going to work... It's too big for my boots. The toe straps, even at their smallest setting doesn't strap down my boots. And the boots don't go over the "gas pedal" toe portion of the baseplate so I don't have any toe side control... (And slightly minor, I don't like the uber-padded ankle straps, feels too mushy to me). Bummer, got them at a good price, too, but they only had Large (now they are all out of stock of all sizes)... This is the problem with buying stuff like this online, haha...


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And an observation that I didn't notice before: The angles that I run I guess are quite extreme. I have to rotate both bindings to max to get the +24, +12 that I normally ride (i.e. the bolt is at the furthest ends of the EST slots on both bindings)... I guess I'll have to experiment with less extreme angles given different equipment now lol.

Anyways, so I'm back to square one. In terms of EST bindings on sale now that are Mediums, I have a choice between Malavita EST and Genesis EST, both on sale at Evo. I'm leaning towards the Genesis as the ankle strap looks thinner and more "tighter." The only "review" I can find on the Genesis is someone who did a comparison of the 2013 Malavita vs. Cartel vs. Genesis. http://www.snowboardingforum.com/binding-reviews/51782-malavita-est-vs-cartel-est-vs.html In that discussion it did say Malavita EST was the stiffest, so that's why I'm a bit confused... I thought Genesis was stiffer, one step below the Diode. @[email protected] The more I research the more confused I get, I should just buy whatever I can that's on sale and just freakin' ride haha... ><


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## boarder22ab (Jan 6, 2013)

I have the 13 Malavitas in med and the ankle straps are definately not overly cushy and are very tight and responsive. I love these bindings and i think theyre going to be slightly stiffer and more responsive than the genesis. I was going to get the genesis but alot of people said the highback just wasnt there to get quick response on heel turns.


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## herjazz (Feb 20, 2013)

They only had the Genesis EST in Medium left, so I got that. Hope it meets my expectations...!

As for non-EST binding, I'm leaning towards the Union Charger or MC Meta Fuse right now, but can't seem to find one in the right size and on sale... :/ I'll probably wait and replace my Drakes next year, then (they refuse to break or show any signs of giving up even after 10+ years!)... The Unions seem solid and well built, hopefully will last me just as long


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