# progression- carving vs skidded turns



## VonHauser (Feb 24, 2020)

Good news: my life has enabled me to move from NC to Salt Lake City and I am now within 30 minutes of some of the best snowboarding on the planet. I have the IKON pass and I’ve spent my Saturdays/Holidays since December at Brighton, Snowbird and Solitude.
Bad news: I’m old. 50 yrs old to be exact. I start out well but my legs (and the rest of me for that matter) get tired pretty quickly. When I get tired, my form starts to go, I am hesitant to push myself as far as going faster, tackling steeper runs etc. Going from edge to edge gets sloppy with a lot of upper body movement. I know that most people that get hurt, do it when they are tired. I would think that riding at least once a week for the past 3 months would be getting me in better shape- it has to some extent but not nearly as quickly as I would have thought or I would like. Again, I’m 50 and conditioning comes at a lot slower pace I guess.

My question is this: I have been watching quite a few videos on youtube about carving. I am thinking that carving vs skidded turns would be much more efficient as far as physical effort and energy expended. Also from what I gather, steeper slopes and rougher snow are better handled with carving vs skidding. I would say I am at best an intermediate at this point and actually I feel like I used to be much better. I think I know what and how to do things but the execution is much harder due to physical limitations of age. My hope is that now that I have access to ride whenever I want, that with practice I can counter and maybe regain what I’ve lost physically. So regarding carving- am I getting ahead of myself thinking I need to learn this when I’m not yet performing that well with the more basic skidded turns? Am I correct about this being a more efficient way to go about it? I see a lot of people on the hill going fast and in control but 90% of them are skidding. I see very few people doing actual carves and I wonder why that is. To me it seems like there is more of an art to carving and it would be what most riders would be working to accomplish, but even the good snowboarders I see doing mainly skidded turns. Maybe they can carve but it's situational. Thanks in advance for your help.


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## bazman (Jan 15, 2017)

Carving is a great way to turn, but isn't the only way. You certainly can't carve all the time in a typical resort. Also carving on steep terrain isn't really doable, it's normally a combination of many different types of turn. And bumpy terrain also requires lots of different techniques

In terms of energy usage, I find carving tires me out the most, but that's because I put more into it and am carving as hard and fast as I can. Skidding around can be done with less energy.

The best place to learn to carve is a wide empty freshly groomed slope, not too steep. That's usually in the morning and when you should have the most energy. When you can carve the whole thing in control, you can up the steepness

There are plenty on here older than 50, so don't let that hold you back. Keep going and you'll get there!


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## Rip154 (Sep 23, 2017)

Practicing carving will help alot with skidded turns as well. Changing edges and balance and all that. In bumpy terrain, you sometimes have to shut down speed however you can, but a good technique is to try and carve turns, and then just let up and skip across to the other end of the tracks and try again. Saves some energy at least. You can start trying to carve from the moment you learn snowboarding, and be much better off.


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## Crusty (Nov 8, 2018)

It is MUCH easier to control speed skidding as opposed to carving. Even if you can carve like a mofo, there are times when you need to slide as a braking mechanism. And don't think about efficiency. Like baz said, carving is work- and the better you get at it the harder you'll want to do it.  Want to snowboard more, longer, safer? Hit the gym, or find some good leg exercises to do at home AND DO THEM. A bunch. I finally started to workout about a year ago, and I have better legs for riding now than I did 20 years ago riding twice as much.


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## chomps1211 (Mar 30, 2011)

I feel ya!! 

Im 59. Started riding @ 50. I'm going to get *this* sticker for my boards. That should shut them the f*ck up! ???


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## Donutz (May 12, 2010)

I need that sticker!

OP, there are a lot of us over 50, and quite a few over 60, on this forum. You're not alone by any means.

Like you, I've been feeling the lack of conditioning this year. My issues fall into the following categories:

1. I'm old as fuck.
2. I'm overweight.
3. I haven't been paying enough attention to conditioning, i.e. going to the gym, running, cycling, etc.
4. My technique has gotten sloppy.

#4 is the biggest problem. Actually, I'm not sure if it's 'gotten' sloppy, or if it's always been that way and it's just affecting me more as 1-3 become bigger issues. What I've finally figured out this year is that I'm doing my heelside turns wrong. My toesides are a nice smooth transition of the edges followed by a nice smooth curve as I make the turn. But when going to heelside, I transition the edges then _immediately _start what essentially amounts to a braking maneuver, rather than a nice smooth curve. It means that my heelside turn is _never_ a carve, and I'm _always_ starting the heelside turn sliding the board at an angle to the edges. This gets tiring after a while, and my legs start to feel it. It also causes heelside chattering a lot of the time. I've now started correcting this, and it's making a huge difference.

I'm also slightly too backseat on my turns, so a conscious attempt to keep the weight a little forward is taking some of the pressure off my back leg. The point is that there are points of technique that can result in you using either more or less energy for the same amount of vertical, depending on how you're doing it. Us old farts have to husband our resources more than the whippersnappers who can go all day, fall on their heads, and bounce.


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## Snow Hound (Jul 21, 2012)

Just a note on the fitness side of things, once a week isn't enough. You need to be doing something else, even if it's only a 25 min bodyweight HIIT routine a couple of times a week.


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## 16gkid (Dec 5, 2012)

Carving is work and people are lazy, thats why so many people just skid their life away. Carving has to be one of the best leg days you can do, and the more you do it, the longer you will be able to to go. You are absolutely correct about getting injured when you continue to push after you get fatigued, so keep going until youre exhausted then call it a day,before you know it, your leg muscles will catch up and you will be going all day! Now that you live close, if you can get out there every other day even for just a few hours, your progression should dramatically increase, shred on!


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## buller_scott (Jun 10, 2018)

Von, that good news is awesome news - congrats! And that bad news is perception. Keanu Reeves is what, 54, and look how many people he can fight in a mere couple of hours (John Wick).

I will say one thing I feel about people flying all over the place, doing skidded turns, considering I know someone who'd yes, be classed as "advanced", who rides just like that: I get the feeling that a lot of people esp. weekend warriors, don't necessarily give a crap about technique - they're more interested in simply bombing the hill as fast and hard as they can, and comparing phone apps with their mates at the bottom of the run, to see who clocked the highest GPS speed. 

I'm not saying that all riders who skid turns lack technique and ability, I simply can't reconcile, in my little head, the idea that if you CAN carve and if the run conditions (crowds, width etc) allow, that you'd skid turns as opposed to carving - to me, carving is simply way more fun. 

That aside, I'd say not to worry about efficiency in the context of how tired you're getting - to ride a "weaker" way for the purpose of energy preservation, isn't worth it IMO. You MIGHT be getting ahead of yourself re: wanting to carve when you're yet to get on top of skidding turns in a controlled, save-your-ass-in-all-situations, second nature fashion, but I still wouldn't overthink it. 

I'd opine that you're ripe for a few things: 1) get some lessons so as to hone your technique (hell, I've been riding for 25yrs this year, and I've put aside some funds for lessons, to refresh my technique); 2) Fitness/gym is of course to be encouraged, but in my experience as someone who's been heavily overweight/ terrible lower back pain last season/ collapsed arches in my feet, STRETCHING has been, almost single-handedly, THE main factor in my being able to go from riding a mere 2hrs a day, to a comfortable 6hrs a day, within the same season; 3) yes, practice getting comfortable with skidded turns at increasingly higher and higher speeds (from a safety perspective, it's rare that I'll carve a turn in order to avoid e.g. a skier approaching from a side run - it'll almost always be a hard skidded turn), but look at each run as something you want to milk for every single yard << meaning, if you want to get into carving, slow it right down, wait for traffic to pass, use as much of the run as possible, and enjoy getting familiar with carving at a MUCH slower, relaxing pace. 

I've shifted my mindset in recent years, away from daily run counts and top speeds, to simply getting as much VALUE as I can out of each run. Often, that will mean e.g. only 15 runs in a day, but stretching them out so that they take 2-3 times as long as they would if I were bombing/skidding, carving up every bit of the run that I can, spending more time going across and back up the run than down it, and having huge fun with every turn. Yes, perhaps I am strange.


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## buller_scott (Jun 10, 2018)

16gkid said:


> Carving is work and people are lazy, thats why so many people just skid their life away. Carving has to be one of the best leg days you can do, and the more you do it, the longer you will be able to to go. You are absolutely correct about getting injured when you continue to push after you get fatigued, so keep going until youre exhausted then call it a day,before you know it, your leg muscles will catch up and you will be going all day! Now that you live close, if you can get out there every other day even for just a few hours, your progression should dramatically increase, shred on!


Yep, this is all very, very true - so many rad dudes I used to see at Buller (used to, because I'm never going back to that shithole) ride like this - they're up there for just Saturday, they're driving 7hrs round trip from Melbourne, time is at a premium so why put work into slowing down and focusing on technique?? We need to bomb the shit out of as many runs as possible then hit the bar and smash 5 pints dammit! We gotta go go go!

And it's amazing how even a few consecutive days on snow, of simply carving as much as you can every day (until it's time to tap out), has you feeling stronger and fitter, with increasing stamina and most importantly - increasing appeal to the ladies.


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## NT.Thunder (Jan 4, 2020)

Donutz said:


> I need that sticker!
> 
> OP, there are a lot of us over 50, and quite a few over 60, on this forum. You're not alone by any means.
> 
> ...


Is this a common scenario because when I read this I immediately thought this is exactly what I do. I was going to have a lesson next trip to see how I best correct it as it has been a long time since a) I've had a lesson and b) since I've ridden with others that are experienced and can throw pointers.

Now I'm spending time riding with my daughter I find myself not as disciplined in the progression or learning side of riding, I don't really practice or challenge myself with exercises, just cruise which is why i think I may benefit from a lesson and more focus on technique. The riding always feels much better when I transfer that weight to the front leg consiously rather than the laconic upright tail slide down the mountain.

One good thing about not being close to a mountain is that I do get plenty of time going to the gym and exercising which has been awesome, but I'd take a mountain over a gym any day of the week.


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## NT.Thunder (Jan 4, 2020)

buller_scott said:


> Von, that good news is awesome news - congrats! And that bad news is perception. Keanu Reeves is what, 54, and look how many people he can fight in a mere couple of hours (John Wick).
> 
> I will say one thing I feel about people flying all over the place, doing skidded turns, considering I know someone who'd yes, be classed as "advanced", who rides just like that: I get the feeling that a lot of people esp. weekend warriors, don't necessarily give a crap about technique - they're more interested in simply bombing the hill as fast and hard as they can, and comparing phone apps with their mates at the bottom of the run, to see who clocked the highest GPS speed.
> 
> ...


I agree and I think the most important things you can do when trianing or learning something new is to give yourself a task and see it through, sounds simple but sometimes many of the learnings we make are actually in the mistakes and corrections made.

I run certification training courses for drone licences and I see it all the time where students will grab a drone and say they are going to fly it to point A and once the drone starts to fly to point B they forget about the first destination and rather than make the corrections neeed to get to the original objective, they just follow through with the move and pat themselves on the back when getting to point B. Discipline is really important along with following through the exercise until the end. I struggle a bit here becuase I don't have the luxury of hitting the mountain every week, weekend or month so when I do hit the mountain I usually get caught up in the moment and just ride. I know I really need to set aside time for lessons and practice.


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## Craig64 (Jul 16, 2015)

You'll be okay. The pain you feel will be your quads and calf's working overtime and they will toughen up after a few weeks. Just keep powering hard till the lactic acid makes you drop, rest for a few seconds and keep on charging. 50 years of age you're only a baby mate. ?


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## MrDavey2Shoes (Mar 5, 2018)

Never go for “one more run” be done when you’re done! Being a hero at the end of the day is never worth it. For the most part everyone is right about carving being a drain on the legs however there is that mellow wide front leg carve where you just pitch toe and heel side and kind of unweight the edge from the middle of the board back - I find energy saving at the end of the day. (I don’t mean skidding) Only works in flattish terrain at slow speeds...


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## buller_scott (Jun 10, 2018)

NT.Thunder said:


> Discipline is really important along with following through the exercise until the end.


You just described the exact opposite of me in terms of how I approach life! haha. I get where you're coming from re: limited time on the mountain + wanting to just smash it. I'd highly recommend picking one day to just get it out of your system in the morning, then slow it RIGHT down after lunch, the focus being extracting as much pure VALUE from each run as possible - technique practice, repeating something so as to increase muscle memory, whatever. 

You might be pleasantly surprised - some of the best days I've had with my father at Perisher, we might have only done 12 runs.... but we're high-fiving on the way back to the car, slapping each other on the back saying "that was fkcing AWESOME!!!!", whilst others are in the lift line, checking their run count on their phone, looking agitated and anxious that they might not hit their goal of 75 runs today. 



Craig51 said:


> 50 years of age you're only a baby mate. ?


Damn straight. OP if you ever go to Japan and see some of the skiers there who aren't Olympians but are still having fun and looking pretty happy with things, you'll see that you've still got 30+ years to go. That's not optimism and encouragement - with decent health and care, it's FACT. 



MrDavey2Shoes said:


> Never go for “one more run” be done when you’re done! Being a hero at the end of the day is never worth it.


Yep! Had my share of concussions this way, and I know someone who is so precious about their time on the hill that literally, they'll keep pushing until they cramp up and have to kneel in pain on the snow for 10 minutes, before being able to walk back to the car. It's a source of pride for him, although I'm not sure why.


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## chomps1211 (Mar 30, 2011)

I was only recently lamenting the fact that only 5-6 short years ago, I could go from first to last chair! (...that's 9am-9pm here in the Midwest). But after my arthritis getting worse, 2 spine surgeries and a couple of cardiac procedures...?

I just can't push like that anymore. Not without risking bigger injuries.

But I still take my vacations and ride several hours, 6-7-8+ days in a row. 

I get up for 1st chair, ride till noon, 1 O'clock etc. I Take a break, get a nap, and hit the slopes again under the lights for another hour or two. ???

Granted,... there's a lot of Advil & occasionally even some stronger pharmaceutical pain management involved from time to time.

...but I rest when Im tired, I ride when Im rested! ???

(...28 days so far this shit snow season!)

-edit-
Oh,... and I could really use 2-3 days vacation *after* my vacation to recuperate! Lol


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## drblast (Feb 28, 2017)

Once a week is not enough to develop those muscles. It will happen, but it will happen by the time the season is over.

I wouldn't push yourself if you're going to get hurt. I _would_ push to get more days on the mountain, especially consecutive days or every-other-day where you ride until you're tired enough that you have that anxious "maybe I might hurt myself on that last run" feeling.

ALSO, riding aggressively and hard with proper technique is wayyyy easier on the muscles than skidding around everywhere. My riding buddies used to shake their heads at my stamina and how I could do that while also going so fast, but I'd tell them no, it's way less effort to ride like this. Then they got better and saw the light.

Keeping your legs loose and dynamic riding over bumps is hard, yes, but not half as hard as skidding around every bump and constantly slowing yourself down because you're scared.

So you'll get there, it just takes intelligent practice. Take a break and have a drink when you're tired, then go out and do some more. You'll ride way longer that way then if you try to push through until you're exhausted. Ride as many days as you can, even if it's only for an hour or two.


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## t21 (Dec 29, 2010)

_Yep! Had my share of concussions this way, and I know someone who is so precious about their time on the hill that literally, they'll keep pushing until they cramp up and have to kneel in pain on the snow for 10 minutes, before being able to walk back to the car. It's a source of pride for him, although I'm not sure why. _

I'm a bit like that guy, i'll be 52 in a couple of months and a weekend warrior. I always carve on my first couple of runs to warm up my joints then explore the mountain. Ride down on bumps,trees chutes then go back to the easy runs then carve some more. Carving from side to side on a steeper runs is a lot of work, holding your edge and try not to skid really burns my calves and quads that i do get cramps so i stop and rest. I carry a small bottle of gatorade on my side pants pocket and sit on the side and watch other riders/skiers go by. 

Although i only live about an hour away from the mountain,riding is like my workout since i do not go the gym at all so i ride hard as much all day. then the last hour before closing,i go to some green runs to cool down my riding. At that time my legs are pretty much shot but i still carve, just more of a mellow.riding. It is a good thing i drive an automatic


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## VonHauser (Feb 24, 2020)

Yes, definitely need to hit the gym, not only for snowboarding of course. Each weekday morning, I’ve been doing free squats, bridges, lunges- only bodyweight exercises. Not 25 minutes worth, maybe 15. I’m sure it helps but most likely working out with weights would be much better. I’m also thinking plyobox jumps would help a lot- any sort of burst jump exercise I think would mimic snowboarding somewhat. The weird thing about it is I have always had much more lower body strength relative to upper body. When I do work out, I can squat more than most people comparatively but I’m way below average with pull-ups, bench etc. About 5 years ago I was snowboarding a lot and at that time I could go all day. My legs were the last thing to give out. Circumstances dictated that I’ve gone about 5 years not riding whatsoever and it surprises me the endurance I’ve lost. Donutz- I do the same thing as your #4. For me I think it might be a way of scrubbing speed either consciously or unconsciously trying to stay in control. The more tired I am the more I do it. Especially on a steeper slope, I need to be quicker edge to edge to control my speed but my legs just wont cooperate. I am considering taking some lessons, which is part of why I am asking these questions, I think I understand the fundamentals of skid turns and can do them, also I understand the idea of carving, just haven’t been able to execute- but I ride alone mostly and I cant see myself and what flaws I might have, so lessons would be good. Chomps1211- a good place to get ibuprofen is the dollar store- I was surprised they had it but I’m using a lot of it these days. 40 200mg tablets for $1. Off brand of course but it works. Thanks to everyone for your input and advice.


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## JDA (Feb 10, 2016)

This is how I keep my legs strong for snowboarding, I am lucky though as its just across the road from my work and I ride it at least 3 - 4 hours per week. Failing that I find a minimum of 20 full body squats per day will keep your legs strong.


__
http://instagr.am/p/B8-V9q7Ay7I/


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## buller_scott (Jun 10, 2018)

JDA said:


> This is how I keep my legs strong for snowboarding, I am lucky though as its just across the road from my work and I ride it at least 3 - 4 hours per week. Failing that I find a minimum of 20 full body squats per day will keep your legs strong.


Dammit, you lucky bastard! I WISH I had something like that, close by. As it is, I need to drive AWAY from home, just to find a decent push/pump/land SUP spot that isn't overrun by 150,000 cyclists, and 250,000 cars who honestly believe that the best way to cut time off the Adelaide > Sydney trip, is by coming down my little street at peak hour (seriously - it's a small residential inner city street, and semi trailers come down here)


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## NT.Thunder (Jan 4, 2020)

JDA said:


> This is how I keep my legs strong for snowboarding, I am lucky though as its just across the road from my work and I ride it at least 3 - 4 hours per week. Failing that I find a minimum of 20 full body squats per day will keep your legs strong.
> 
> 
> __
> http://instagr.am/p/B8-V9q7Ay7I/


That's pretty cool, I'm on the lkookout for an old board to set-up a rail in the backyard for jib practice, funny thing though is that I have a bump track just up the road that no one really ever uses. Looks a bit hard core for a skateboard noob like me and I'd end up braking an arm or leg if I tried to ride it, or would I??? 

Maybe I should keep an eye out for an old skate deck.


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## Scalpelman (Dec 5, 2017)

I’m 51. I learned a few years ago that in order for me to ride like I want to ride, I need to prepare. Nowadays, winter is the season that I’m in the best shape. I start getting ready for the season in October. I don’t care for the gym so much, so I try to do as much outside hiking and walking with my wife (6-8mi for the walk). But the most important part of prep is strength training. There’s no replacement for thigh blasting workouts. I do kettle bell workouts with focus on squats. But it also blasts the core and upper body. Not saying you should adopt my exercise regimen—just a point that us weekend warriors can’t rely on snowboarding to stay in snowboarding shape. Unless you’re riding at least three days a week you need to augment with strength/cardio training. 

Unless you want to just side slip your way down, carving is a way to learn how to effectively utilize your edges under any circumstance. Edges are your friend.


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## zc1 (Feb 20, 2017)

This discussion quickly turned from carving vs skidding to just focusing on conditioning. What I've just said is about all I'm going to contribute to the carving/skidding part of the discussion, though, lol. Ok, one more thing. They're all just tools in your belt. You use a combination of tools to get the job done. Sometimes you carve, sometimes you slide, just depending on your goal, the terrain, etc. Ok, the conditioning/training bit next.

I'm in my early 40s, here, and this season was my best so far for being ready to ride right at the outset. Skating (inline and ice) and body weight exercises are what I kept myself going with during the summer and fall. It was absolutely the most effective cardio and functional strengthening/toning combination I've done to date.

The other key is to keep going with that during the season and not just rely on snowboarding to keep you in shape. I like to use professional athletes as an analogy. Hockey players, for example, still incorporate other forms of cardio off the ice and still do weight training, stretching, etc. They also watch and analyze their own and their opponents' game films, which is something we should do as well. Watch good snowboarders ride, have someone video you and watch yourself ride.

Pros also don't go it alone. They take 'lessons' from their trainers. We could all use lessons as well. We're not the average Joe snowboarder who's just out there for fun, windshield-wipering it down the hill a couple of times a season. We're enthusiastic enough about the sport to devote a good amount of time to it as well as come online and talk about it and about how to improve/"progress." Having good technique/correcting bad habits will increase your endurance, help you to ride the same terrain differently (probably more easily) and make snowboarding more fun as a result.


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## ridethecliche (Feb 27, 2019)

1) Take a lesson or ten
2) You live 30 mins away. Get there early and go for morning sessions. Call it quits by the afternoon if you've gotten a bunch of runs in. No use pushing things.
3) Like others have said, conditioning is everything, but so is recovery. Getting a good workout/sleep/diet/etc routine are going to be very important for you if you want to continue pushing forward hard.
4) Enjoy yourself!


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## Crusty (Nov 8, 2018)

NT.Thunder said:


> I'd end up braking an arm or leg if I tried to ride it, or would I???


I grew up skating, in an era where you skated street until you got kicked out, or drove several towns away to a sketchy splinter-fest backyard ramp. Now that I've injured myself enough to give it up, there's parks all over the place. Literally one I can walk to from work. 




Scalpelman said:


> I’m 51. I learned a few years ago that in order for me to ride like I want to ride, I need to prepare. Nowadays, winter is the season that I’m in the best shape. I start getting ready for the season in October. I don’t care for the gym so much, so I try to do as much outside hiking and walking with my wife (6-8mi for the walk). But the most important part of prep is strength training. There’s no replacement for thigh blasting workouts. I do kettle bell workouts with focus on squats. But it also blasts the core and upper body. Not saying you should adopt my exercise regimen—just a point that us weekend warriors can’t rely on snowboarding to stay in snowboarding shape. Unless you’re riding at least three days a week you need to augment with strength/cardio training.
> 
> Unless you want to just side slip your way down, carving is a way to learn how to effectively utilize your edges under any circumstance. Edges are your friend.


Good stuff. I learned similarly; One fall I started doing hill climbs up a dead end road. Nothing crazy, but I noticed a big improvement first couple days on the snow. That led me to the gym, and luckily the one in town is small and usually empty. I do maybe an hour twice a week. Huge difference in riding.


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## WigMar (Mar 17, 2019)

For me, efficient riding is a blend of the laziest low level carving and skidded turns. The trick is to be on edge just enough to lay a trench behind you without really turning much at all. Control your center of gravity and steer with that and your feet. Slow and stop with skidded turns. It's certainly not carving, but you can lay a trench of sorts without hardly any effort at all. Overall, this lazy style is pretty fast. It takes way more effort to ride slower. That involves active carving and/or more skidded turns.


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## Csweater (Aug 30, 2019)

I started snowboarding last year at 46 and became absolute hooked on the sport. No matter your age, the more miles you can get on the board the better you will feel over all. It takes a while to get those muscles accustom to the movements. Also coming from NC to Utah means you are also adjusting to the lack of oxygen. I went 19 times last year in CO and got better and better as the season progressed.

I was determined to be in better shape this season and started to run, yoga, doing crunches and plank, and lifting as soon as last season finished. By the time this season started I was in the best shape I have been in for years, and still the first 3-4 times out kicked my ass. As the season has gone on I have gotten used to it now. I am not riding 8-9 hours days, but I can ride 3-4 hours without breaks which is all I am looking to do at this point. I still get a little sore but nothing like last year. I am also not on the ground nearly as much as last season which helps a ton.

Carving gets easier as your technique improves. Not that I am expert, but as my technique has improved, I notice that I am not expending as much energy as before. That why I believe its all about getting more miles on the board to improve at every aspect of the sport.

Anything worth learning is normally hard. You are going to kill it bother. Make sure you hydrate regularly and eat a protein bar on the chair every couple of hours. It will get easier and easier. I see tons of people on the slopes in their 70's and even 80's. If they can do it, then there is no reason why we can't.


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## VonHauser (Feb 24, 2020)

Csweater said:


> Also coming from NC to Utah means you are also adjusting to the lack of oxygen.


Very true. My first day out it nearly wore me out just skating to the lift.


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## VonHauser (Feb 24, 2020)

So now that we’ve established that I’m a fat load, now the obligatory equipment question. So I’m 5’11”, 205lbs +-, I wouldn’t mind getting below 200lbs but I dont really consider myself overweight. I ride an Arbor A-Frame 162, I think it is the 08-09 model, so fairly old. It’s one of the Arbors with sunrays made with koa, maple and walnut- still be best looking board I’ve ever seen- I probably should have it hanging on the wall instead of scraping it down a mountain. I got this board used around 2012- I had been riding an Arbor Woody 166 which I still have. At the time I felt like at my weight it would be good to go to a slightly shorter but stiffer board. Turns out I was right because the A-Frame was a big improvement over the Woody, in my case- more responsive, more stable- at the time I guess I had improved enough to merit a more advanced board. Now I know the equipment chase can be a slippery slope, the A-Frame was sort of my dream board which also happened to be what fit me at the time, so I have been happy with it and I’ll never get rid of it, BUT- I’m seeing all this stuff about rocker camber, volume shifted, super pig etc etc… I’m wondering 1. Is my board a dinosaur compared to today’s tech? 2. Is there a type of board that might be better for me at this stage?- maybe easier to turn, more forgiving etc.- something I would have more fun on and then when I am in better shape I can always revisit the A-Frame. There are so many boards and different configurations, I wouldn’t know where to start.


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## WigMar (Mar 17, 2019)

A-frames are tiring rides, but they are sexy. There are many more forgiving decks out there. It'll be special to take that A-frame out on empty early morning groomers if you have something casual to switch to after an hour or two.


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## Donutz (May 12, 2010)

VonHauser, I'm 5'10" and 210, and I ride 159-160 boards. Boards I'd recommend in that range: Never Summer Heritage, Yes PYL, Lib Tech E-Jack Knife. I have a larger list of boards that I would avoid, but that's probably more about personal preference.


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## buller_scott (Jun 10, 2018)

NT.Thunder said:


> That's pretty cool, I'm on the lkookout for an old board to set-up a rail in the backyard for jib practice, funny thing though is that I have a bump track just up the road that no one really ever uses. Looks a bit hard core for a skateboard noob like me and I'd end up braking an arm or leg if I tried to ride it, or would I???
> 
> Maybe I should keep an eye out for an old skate deck.


That does look like a bike track, but at the end seems to be something that a skater could use to their advantage. 

I used to skate when I was a kid, gave it up for 20+ years, before recently (Oct last year) taking up longboarding. It's great - big wheels that you can literally roll over gravel on, nice big standing platforms, longer wheelbases that are super stable. 

A decent longboard setup that will last you years, ain't cheap when you put together parts individually (choosing your own wheels, deck, trucks, bearings etc) - since taking it up, I've spent enough to buy 2x new board+binding setups, BUT you _can_ get completes that will work nicely, still using upper-end componentry:
Arbor Bug Solstice 36 Longboard Complete 


Arbor Mission Photo Molly Steele 35" Complete Longboard




Arbor Shakedown 37" Crosscut Complete Cruiser Skateboard




Landyachtz Super Chief Revival 36" Longboard Complete



You don't need "amazing" balance - as a snowboarder, you'll have balance enough to be able to hop right onto a longboard and enjoy it. The bonus is that whereas I used to _force_ myself to get out for walks 2-3x a week, now I just want to get on the longboard almost every day, time permitting. Hell - I've even stopped walking my dog, because I now put him on the extendable-retracty leash, hooked to a tie-down strap that's wrapped around my body, and take him for a skate! 




Csweater said:


> I see tons of people on the slopes in their 70's and even 80's. If they can do it, then there is no reason why we can't.


Hell yes. Once, I was taking a dump in the toilets at my hill in Japan, and I heard two old guys come in, talking in colloquial Japanese, and their conversation went something like this:
A: "Good to see you again! Have you seen Kentaro lately?"
B: "Yeah, he's visiting his daughter in (wherever)"
A: "He's still skiing though, right?"
B: "Yeah, usually comes up a few times a week"
A: "He's only in his late 60's, right? He's still got 10 years left up the hill"
B: "Nah man, 20" <<< Fck yes!!!


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## buller_scott (Jun 10, 2018)

VonHauser said:


> 1. Is my board a dinosaur compared to today’s tech? 2. Is there a type of board that might be better for me at this stage?- maybe easier to turn, more forgiving etc.- something I would have more fun on and then when I am in better shape I can always revisit the A-Frame. There are so many boards and different configurations, I wouldn’t know where to start.


1. Yes, I would say so - you'd likely have the means to be able to get onto a new board (or 10), so I'd say avail yourself of new tech / shapes etc. 
2. This is a massive can of worms, there's so much out there. The whole --rocker between the feet, camber under each foot, rocker in the tail-- thing didn't really agree with me - I'd grown up riding camber, and now I either prefer setback camber, camber 2.0, or flat decks. _Presuming_ your focus is to up your general riding game, and to grow into carving, via a board that can do just that whilst also being forgiving, I feel like camber 2.0 (majority camber, but with slight early rise in the tip and tail) would be your best bet, followed by setback camber << just my micro, humble opinion. 

Per above, brands like Capita, Rome, Yes, Jones, Salomon spring to mind, with their various offerings.


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## VonHauser (Feb 24, 2020)

WigMar said:


> A-frames are tiring rides, but they are sexy. There are many more forgiving decks out there. It'll be special to take that A-frame out on empty early morning groomers if you have something casual to switch to after an hour or two.


Yes, I like the recent models but I don’t think they compare looks-wise to the few years they made these sun-ray top sheets. I would imagine they were expensive to manufacture. The 10-11 model was even nicer, with birds flying out of the sunrise.


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## Kaladryn (Mar 18, 2016)

I hear several people saying carving is more work? Carving is completely effortless, all you are doing so flowing from edge to edge, there are g-forces but they aren't anything compared to the forces in skidded, 'speed check' turns. I also heard that carving is easier on steeps? Carving is easiest on less steep terrain. All you are doing in a carve is standing over your board with your knees somewhat bent and pressuring the edge. The board and the hill is doing all the work for you. If you come out of a carve perfectly, momentum and the flex of your board is putting into the next carve, even if you are leaving the ground between edges, it's an effortless flow if you are balanced and in the correct position. When you do a skidded turn, or speed check turn, that is when you are resisting the snow and expending effort, that is also the time that you working hard to absorb irregularities in the slope.The problem with carving is speed management and increased forces from higher speed riding and more effort from speed checking turns because of this speed. All much harder to deal with on steeper terrain.

When you carve, you flow from edge to edge, letting your board drive you. It's all balance, flow, and momentum. Done right you will accelerate on every turn. Now you could argue that really sharp carved turns at high speeds are somewhat difficult, but a skidded turn at those same angles and speed would throw even more forces into the body and be even more difficult. Carving is easy, your board wants to carve, if you are weighting it correctly, it wants to flow from one edge to another effortlessly.

I've been riding since my hometown resort started allowing snowboarding in 1992 and I currently ride a Jones Flagship.


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## Jimi7 (Jan 14, 2020)

I'm 50 too and used to carve with the best of them. Problem with carving is you build up speed and high speed/high G carves require energy and strength. I'm pretty burnt out after 1 or 2 short runs carving the mountain. It's still worth learning and a great feeling, but carving does burn up energy.


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## buller_scott (Jun 10, 2018)

Kaladryn said:


> Carving is completely effortless, all you are doing so flowing from edge to edge, ... All you are doing in a carve is standing over your board with your knees somewhat bent and pressuring the edge. The board and the hill is doing all the work for you.


I've been riding 3 less years than you, and am admittedly relatively new to proper carving (only having taken it up seriously within the last few years - prior to that I would carve as a matter of general riding technique, but didn't view it as something I'd wan't a dedicated setup and stance for), but that is not my experience _at all_ - for example, slide-turning on autopilot is mindless, whereas I have to actually pay attention and "get on it" when I want to carve a run from top to bottom. 

The decks I've set up specifically for carving, are softer than yours, I'd presume (never ridden a flagship) - Burton Deep Thinker, Burton Skeleton Key (loved this), Marhar Lumberjack (this thing is fcking amazing), currently on a Rome PD MT 157 (didn't get to test it properly as it was SUPER heavy, not-freezing-overnight, slow end of season slush).


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## Crusty (Nov 8, 2018)

Sure, if you have decent board balance, you can tip your board on edge and ride it in an arc. I think that's where most of us begin to carve. And yes that takes minimal exertion. That really only works at the ideal trail angle, though; there's almost zero speed control. Or, you can charge your carves; drop your stance, flex your board, make it do what you want where you want. That shit can tire you out quick


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## VonHauser (Feb 24, 2020)

Ok, so I impulse bought a cheap but well reviewed board. Nidecker Merc Snowboard 2019.
Not a bad price and it seems to fit sort of what I'm looking for at the moment. I got the 159. What do you guys think? If nobody likes it, I'll send the son of a bitch back.


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## Snow Hound (Jul 21, 2012)

VonHauser said:


> Ok, so I impulse bought a cheap but well reviewed board. Nidecker Merc Snowboard 2019.
> Not a bad price and it seems to fit sort of what I'm looking for at the moment. I got the 159. What do you guys think? If nobody likes it, I'll send the son of a bitch back.


It'll definitely be an easier, more relaxed ride than the A Frame. Nidecker certainly know how to make a snowboard that turns nicely. Try it, only you can say for sure if it's what you're looking for.


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## buller_scott (Jun 10, 2018)

VonHauser said:


> Ok, so I impulse bought a cheap but well reviewed board. Nidecker Merc Snowboard 2019.
> Not a bad price and it seems to fit sort of what I'm looking for at the moment. I got the 159. What do you guys think? If nobody likes it, I'll send the son of a bitch back.


I've been quite intrigued by Nidecker boards (parent company to so many others, they _must_ know how to make a good riding board, been in the game for a long time etc), only problem is that they're so few-and-far-between here in Aus that they never really go on sale.

IMO, the equation of: the stage you're at + what you appear to be looking for currently + something that will accommodate progression and growing into = there are probably _too_ many boards that would service your needs, and no one single stand-out, so if you can get something on the cheap like you have, why not give it a go? 

I'm thinking worst case scenario, it might be a bit soft compared to what you're used to, and more "chill" than "committed". That being said, you can still absolutely carve on a RCR board like the Merc, and there's nothing wrong with taking a step back and exploiting more forgiving gear, when trying to dial in technique. 

I've actually been intrigued by this deck in the past, when window/online shopping from local sources. At the time, it would've fit the bill for a relatively playful, all mountain freestyle inspired, can do a bit of everything addition to my quiver, for riding my formerly frequently visited small Aussie resort.


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## NT.Thunder (Jan 4, 2020)

buller_scott said:


> I've been quite intrigued by Nidecker boards (parent company to so many others, they _must_ know how to make a good riding board, been in the game for a long time etc), only problem is that they're so few-and-far-between here in Aus that they never really go on sale.
> 
> IMO, the equation of: the stage you're at + what you appear to be looking for currently + something that will accommodate progression and growing into = there are probably _too_ many boards that would service your needs, and no one single stand-out, so if you can get something on the cheap like you have, why not give it a go?
> 
> ...


Hey @buller_scott where do you usually seek out good board deals here in Aus? Do you just troll the usual suspects Ballastyx, Boardworld, Twelveboards, Blamoral Boards, Rhythm, E107, Melbourne Snowboard etc.....what are the other main go to's who have good deals? The prices are crazy different between shops.


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## VonHauser (Feb 24, 2020)

buller_scott said:


> I've been quite intrigued by Nidecker boards (parent company to so many others, they _must_ know how to make a good riding board, been in the game for a long time etc), only problem is that they're so few-and-far-between here in Aus that they never really go on sale.
> 
> IMO, the equation of: the stage you're at + what you appear to be looking for currently + something that will accommodate progression and growing into = there are probably _too_ many boards that would service your needs, and no one single stand-out, so if you can get something on the cheap like you have, why not give it a go?
> 
> ...


The thing is made in Switzerland, I can't imagine it being bad quality. I couldn't find a bad review for it. The Angry Snowboarder really liked it and people seem to think he knows what he's talking about. At that price, if it doesnt work I can make it into a bench or something. I looked at a couple other boards- the Rome Mechanic and the Gnu T2B. This one looked just as good for less money. Should be here Friday so hopefully I can take it to the hill over the weekend. I'll post a first impression review.


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## buller_scott (Jun 10, 2018)

VonHauser said:


> The Angry Snowboarder really liked it and people seem to think he knows what he's talking about.


Not trying to tickle his nuts, but AngrySnowboarder (between Avran and Kevin) have seen me buy I think 3-4 boards over the last few seasons, based on their recommendations and reviews, and every single one has been solid. You'll be fine!


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## VonHauser (Feb 24, 2020)

buller_scott said:


> Not trying to tickle his nuts, but AngrySnowboarder (between Avran and Kevin) have seen me buy I think 3-4 boards over the last few seasons, based on their recommendations and reviews, and every single one has been solid. You'll be fine!


Lol, like I had said before, the equipment chase can be a slippery slope. I had hoped I was past that with the A-Frame but.... I've certainly gone down that rabbit hole with other gear- HiFi equipment etc. I guess part of the fun is trying out different stuff.


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## Jimi7 (Jan 14, 2020)

The Merc is great value. It's a little soft for carving, but I learned to carve on a stiff ass Burton T6. At least the Merc can do other things. The T6 wasn't much fun if the terrain wasn't fast and groomed.


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## wrathfuldeity (Oct 5, 2007)

Lots of good points. As to OP's original question of carving vs skidding. Presuming you have a good slope and adequate grooming and an appropriate board; carving is way more efficient and easier physically. However mentally carving can be more mentally taxing (and visa versa). I'm 61, started at 44 and 17 seasons later, only the past few seasons getting the carving thing to come together. Carving is more mentally taxing due to the speed, ability to stay focused and paying attention to what's further down the hill, being mindful of what your body is suppose to be doing and realizing the consequences of flying down the hill at 60mph. Any yes there is slow carving...which imo is much harder to do because of balancing on the high angled edge without the assistance of speed or g-force.

Skidding is more physical because you are fighting gravity or fighting the fall line vs carving you are flowing or directing the flow and using gravity/fall line to make that happen....while perhaps also using the terrain to assist you.

As for the age thing, I usually need a couple of laps to get my body (and perhaps mind) to get in the game. Then I can blast 4-6 good runs and then start to dial it back. Of course the relative numbers change as the season/s progress. But it seems to be my natural cycle for a day of riding...depending of lots of factors such as conditioning, sleep, hydration and etc.

Other factors are the crew you are with and your attitude. If I'm riding by myself, I generally tend to stay in my comfort zone. But if I'm riding with a younger or more hard core crew, I tend to push myself outside of my zone. Of course getting beyond my skill level can be spectacularly humbling...but it also starkly points out my physical and mental deficiencies that I need to work on. This past Monday rode with a crew of 6 that was at least 20-25 years younger and I definitely ate big shit that I should have been able to handle...but it was big fun. Point is, I'm an advocate of pushing outside your envelop is a valid avenue for progression.

edit: On Monday was riding an old 2004 stiff cambered fr Option.


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## MountainMystic (Apr 24, 2019)

buller_scott said:


> I've been quite intrigued by Nidecker boards (parent company to so many others, they _must_ know how to make a good riding board, been in the game for a long time etc), only problem is that they're so few-and-far-between here in Aus that they never really go on sale.
> 
> IMO, the equation of: the stage you're at + what you appear to be looking for currently + something that will accommodate progression and growing into = there are probably _too_ many boards that would service your needs, and no one single stand-out, so if you can get something on the cheap like you have, why not give it a go?
> 
> ...


Melb snowboard centre (at sale time) or eBay for Nidecker. Sometimes freezeproshop (UK) will have Nidecker. Concept and a couple of others atm... Absolute-snow.co.uk has lots of Nidecker, on sale right now. Exxy shipping (but quick). 15% off for a 250pound spend will offset that.


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## ridethecliche (Feb 27, 2019)

Middle of the road flex directional RCR style board is a pretty solid buy imho. It'll be a solid smaller mountain board. If you end up somewhere with a ton of vert and open terrain you may want something else, but this will get the job done.

The flex means that you can mess around on it too and enjoy yourself. Just know that it'll have a speed limit where it starts feeling a bit iffy when you're going totally ham on it. I think you'll really enjoy it though!


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## VonHauser (Feb 24, 2020)

ridethecliche said:


> Middle of the road flex directional RCR style board is a pretty solid buy imho. It'll be a solid smaller mountain board. If you end up somewhere with a ton of vert and open terrain you may want something else, but this will get the job done.
> 
> The flex means that you can mess around on it too and enjoy yourself. Just know that it'll have a speed limit where it starts feeling a bit iffy when you're going totally ham on it. I think you'll really enjoy it though!


Yes, I'm pretty psyched for it to get here. Now that I think about it I've never really ridden anything but Arbor boards to any extent. When I get to the point where I'm going too fast for it, it will probably be time to go back to the A-Frame...... or one of the other thousand boards out there. help me.


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## ridethecliche (Feb 27, 2019)

I have a signal yup and omni, which cover just about everything I'd want to ride. I honestly ride the yup just about every day I can, unless if it's super icy because the omni is a 158 (vs a 153.5) so it has more effective edge and thus more grip. 

That said, I just picked up a used rome buckshot so I could have a true twin to ride for the park and to practice on. And I'm here thinking... oohhhhh the party platter looks sweet, so does the huck knife, and hmmm the amplid penta looks mental, and.... sigh. It never ends lmao. I'm taking a hiatus for now though, a quiver of 3 is plenty.

But I reallllyyyyy want to pick up a splitboard. That's a fark ton of money though and I'm going to get maybe half the days on the hill next season as I did this season.


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## WigMar (Mar 17, 2019)

VonHauser said:


> Yes, I'm pretty psyched for it to get here. Now that I think about it I've never really ridden anything but Arbor boards to any extent. When I get to the point where I'm going too fast for it, it will probably be time to go back to the A-Frame...... or one of the other thousand boards out there. help me.


That's the great thing about having a quiver. It'll feel special to bring that A frame out when you need speed. Good choice with the Merc.


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## buller_scott (Jun 10, 2018)

NT.Thunder said:


> Hey @buller_scott where do you usually seek out good board deals here in Aus? Do you just troll the usual suspects Ballastyx, Boardworld, Twelveboards, Blamoral Boards, Rhythm, E107, Melbourne Snowboard etc.....what are the other main go to's who have good deals? The prices are crazy different between shops.


Oh hey man, sorry I missed this! I'll go over my experience so far, in no particular order:
-- Boardworld has amongst the best prices, and I understand this is because they've got a warehouse rather than a staffed store ---- mind you, I've never bought from them
-- E107 has good deals come end of season, and have _seriously_ been close to pulling the trigger, with them
-- Balmoral is alright, but you can get better elsewhere ---- I've purchased bits and pieces, tuning gear, spare parts etc from them before though, because they had a decent selection at the time (e.g. 20% off sale)
-- Trigger Bros has some great deals, and according to Craig51, they price match. I've also seen them _seriously_ reduce prices on gear (e.g. "last season's", which is really current season given that we get stuff a season ahead of everyone else, K2 Bottle Rocket for $480, which was originally $799 IIRC, and at best (given that it's "last season's"), $600 everywhere else). ---- For these guys, I'd suggest watching like a hawk, and keep an eye out for any national holiday/celebrations - the example I gave above, was for mothers' day.
-- Rhythm - probably amongst the best you can get. Some of their sales will see "last season's" stuff get down to 40% off (Yes 30%, Endeavour 40%, Jones 30%, , but when the sales drop, you've gotta get in _real_ quick - I've monitored sale events, and online stock literally changes every hour-). ---- Watch these guys like a hawk as well - I once got _next_ season's gear (i.e. 2020 bindings for my March 2019 Japan trip), just because they had some random, un-announced online sale for _one day_ - it was a random "first of the month" sale, for 20% off _everything_ in store. To say I was stoked, was an understatement.
-- Melbourne Snowboard - great range, and ignoring their in-store experience (where most of the staff are the littest raddest sendiest "send send send" park rats who spend most of their time trying to convince you that they were a missed sponsorship opportunity for Capita, Union, Red Bull, and Toyota), the online shopping experience is really quite good, _presuming_ you accept the fact that you're never gonna get any better than 20% off, with them. ---- _However_, if you're after a relatively popular model that somehow hasn't managed to sell out during the season, end-of-season 20% sales might be the best price you're gonna get anywhere in Aus, so if they've got it, just pull the trigger.
-- Ballistyx is a total, utter fcking waste of time. Firstly, their staff are shit - trying to put novices into stuff like Burton X-Base and Jones Carbon Flagships (seen this multiple times in-store), and when I called them about their "price match guarantee" to which they enthusiastically answered they can, and I told them about Trigger Bros doing the K2 Bottle Rocket for $480 (it was $599 on Ballistyx) - I told the guy that if they can match it, I'll be at their store within 3 hours to pick it up, the guy hopped onto the Trigger Bros site and confirmed, then put me on hold to talk to his manager, finally taking me off hold to tell me that no, they can only sell it for $599. Yeah, because cost price on a $800 snowboard is $600. Fcking clowns.
-- Twelve. My homies. A little hard to discuss discounts here, because I've been with them long enough (been buying gear off them since when they were staff back at Ballistyx), such that I get a loyalty discount that goes beyond what you see online. _What I will say, _is keep an eye out on their site, regularly - their prices _can_ move up and down more frequently than you'd think (they definitely _don't _set a price for a board, and leave it there until end-of-season discount time - prices will go up and down by as much as $120-$150). If you can catch 'em when prices have dipped _and_ they've got some celebration discount going on (Queen's birthday, Black Friday etc), then you're getting a pretty good deal. 

Hope that helps!


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## buller_scott (Jun 10, 2018)

wrathfuldeity said:


> edit: On Monday was riding an old 2004 stiff cambered fr Option.


Ah, that brings me back to my youth - I learned to ride park on a hella stiff Option Makkinen 158. That learning period was _not_ without a healthy amount of concussions and pain haha. 

I just got "gifted back" a 2008 Option Dufficy the other day, from someone I gave it to _aaaages_ ago, who hadn't ridden it for 5+ years. One of their upper-end "freestyle" decks at the time - resplendent with *TWENTY ONE *carbon stringers tip-to-tail (I just counted), might have to get it back on snow this season! 



MountainMystic said:


> Melb snowboard centre (at sale time) or eBay for Nidecker. Sometimes freezeproshop (UK) will have Nidecker. Concept and a couple of others atm... Absolute-snow.co.uk has lots of Nidecker, on sale right now. Exxy shipping (but quick). 15% off for a 250pound spend will offset that.


Thanks for that man! I've been intrigued by Nidecker for sure, but honestly not enough to really pursue one, given the range at Melbourne Snowboard usually (plus the fact that their staff... I honestly get exhausted after only 5 mins of listening to how awesome and rad and sendy they are as they try to sell you what they need to push - mind you, the thigh-length hoodies, hood up and over a beanie in a store that's got the heating set at 25degC, is pretty "sent" of them.


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## NT.Thunder (Jan 4, 2020)

buller_scott said:


> Oh hey man, sorry I missed this! I'll go over my experience so far, in no particular order:
> -- Boardworld has amongst the best prices, and I understand this is because they've got a warehouse rather than a staffed store ---- mind you, I've never bought from them
> -- E107 has good deals come end of season, and have _seriously_ been close to pulling the trigger, with them
> -- Balmoral is alright, but you can get better elsewhere ---- I've purchased bits and pieces, tuning gear, spare parts etc from them before though, because they had a decent selection at the time (e.g. 20% off sale)
> ...


Cheers man that's awesome, seems I'm looking in all the right spaces.
Interesting your experience with Ballastyx, I just purchased a board from them, they did match another price but it was a bit of a root around, was supposed to be waxed and wasn't which isn't a real big deal but being in the NT there's nowhere I can get this done so will have to do it in Queenstown NZ first day I arrive. It also turned up looing like it had been via Syria and was really worried the board would be damaged but luckilly it was okay and nothing visually damaged, so good to know. They also gave me some duff info on the boa boots but hey, all worked out okay in the end but it was hard work.


I've got some boards shortlisted that I'm keeping an eye out for both 2nd hand gumtree/fb or if they come on special at any of these shops. If nothing comes up before my NZ trip I'll have a look in Queenstown and trial a few boards there, prices look pretty good in NZ.

Great info though


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## MountainMystic (Apr 24, 2019)

buller_scott said:


> Ah, that brings me back to my youth - I learned to ride park on a hella stiff Option Makkinen 158. That learning period was _not_ without a healthy amount of concussions and pain haha.
> 
> I just got "gifted back" a 2008 Option Dufficy the other day, from someone I gave it to _aaaages_ ago, who hadn't ridden it for 5+ years. One of their upper-end "freestyle" decks at the time - resplendent with *TWENTY ONE *carbon stringers tip-to-tail (I just counted), might have to get it back on snow this season!
> 
> ...


NP Scott, what Nidecker boards and what size are you interested in (if the right deal pops up)?
I have never walked into Melb Snowboard without knowing pretty much exactly what I wanted LOL
I did try some boots on there. never again. esp at sale time. ended up buying from Ballistyx, who did price match with twelve, which was handy.


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## JDA (Feb 10, 2016)

buller_scott said:


> Oh hey man, sorry I missed this! I'll go over my experience so far, in no particular order:
> -- Boardworld has amongst the best prices, and I understand this is because they've got a warehouse rather than a staffed store ---- mind you, I've never bought from them
> -- E107 has good deals come end of season, and have _seriously_ been close to pulling the trigger, with them
> -- Balmoral is alright, but you can get better elsewhere ---- I've purchased bits and pieces, tuning gear, spare parts etc from them before though, because they had a decent selection at the time (e.g. 20% off sale)
> ...


Another one is Larry Adler, I'm talking online purchase here, you know what board you want and and just want the lowest price. I picked a K2 Manifest from them last year for $440 on one of their flash sales which actually popped up as an ad on Instagram. Crazy price for such a high end board!


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## VonHauser (Feb 24, 2020)

Ok so took the Nidecker Merc to Brighton on Saturday. Usually I can ride from about 9-1, made it to 2 on the Merc. So that would tell me its an easier board to ride for me. The thing is even though the day as a whole tells me its an easier board to ride I really don’t feel a huge difference when I’m riding the board, if that makes sense. In other words there’s not a big difference in the feel of the board being easier to turn etc. between the Merc and my AFrame. It may be that I still need to get used to it. Other thoughts- although the Merc looks to be well made, especially for the price, I can tell that the A-Frame is a higher quality board. It just feels more ‘solid’. This is to be expected though given the respective prices. One aspect that surprised me about the Merc was the lack of chatter. Sometimes going to my heelside edge, if my form is off I will get a lot of chatter. I expected this to be worse with the Merc since it is a shorter and less stiff board but actually the Merc may be a bit better compared to the AFrame in this regard. Overall given that the a new Arbor A-Frame costs close to $600 these days and I paid $223 for the Merc, the Merc performs well above its price point. I probably should wait till I’ve ridden the Merc a few more times before I give an opinion on it but just sharing my first impression.


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## Donutz (May 12, 2010)

A lot of things can make you tire out faster. A less responsive board that requires you to muscle it more will tire you out faster, and of course the converse is true. If the board simply matches your natural riding style better, you might find yourself having to put out less effort to get the response you want. For instance, you say you get less heelside chatter on the Merc. That could be because your heelside turns are carvier, leading to the edge breaking loose less, or you don't go as up on your heel edge, leading to more of a scarve.

Point is, as I've been finding out this season, the board's characteristics really make a difference to the ride.


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## wrathfuldeity (Oct 5, 2007)

Idk...but suspect if you are getting chatter on the A Frame, it is because you are fighting the fall line (too transverse). I had similar experience for a couple of years...until I figured out, "just point it down the fall line and get the board up on edge to use its radius = no chatter".


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## buller_scott (Jun 10, 2018)

MountainMystic said:


> NP Scott, what Nidecker boards and what size are you interested in (if the right deal pops up)?
> I have never walked into Melb Snowboard without knowing pretty much exactly what I wanted LOL
> I did try some boots on there. never again. esp at sale time. ended up buying from Ballistyx, who did price match with twelve, which was handy.


Yeah lol, _*guaranteed *_Ballistyx will price match Twelve - Twelve has (rightfully so) taken quite a chunk of Ballistyx's customers, and I'd suspect that Ballistyx would enjoy any chance to poach a customer from Twelve, given the history. 

Nice one though! As for Nidecker, I can't recall the specific model names, but they've been of the "directional, carvy yet handy in pow" ilk. Truth be told, I've been somewhat interested, however not enough to justify e.g. $500 on one, when for a few hundred bucks more I can get the board I _really _want from Twelve, with the pleasure of talking to the great staff, catching up with the founders of the store, and getting my loyalty discount to boot. 

Re: Melbourne Snowboard, yeah - I bought some boots there last season (late enough that Twelve was out of the boots I was interested in, at my size), and it was painful - guy was telling me how sick Buller is, how he usually rides 150-200 days a year (yet he's stuck in the city 6 days a week, working at the snowboard store, hundreds of km's away from any snow?), and how he's broken Union heelcups and straps hitting 70ft kickers, but _damn _Union are the best bindings ever. 



JDA said:


> Another one is Larry Adler, I'm talking online purchase here, you know what board you want and and just want the lowest price. I picked a K2 Manifest from them last year for $440 on one of their flash sales which actually popped up as an ad on Instagram. Crazy price for such a high end board!


Yeah, that manifest was a fcking steal! I must admit, I like going to Larry Adler when I go to Jindy - They've got good odds and ends that you didn't know you needed until you got there (e.g. Helly Hansen rabbit fur bomber hat with rabbit fur poms hanging off the ear flaps), and the kind of snow gear that I like (Helly Hansen, MontBell, and it's nice to aspire to Arcteryx), and it's nice to be browsing through a store - _even in a place like Jindy! - _and not hear the words "hey bro" haha.


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## Crusty (Nov 8, 2018)

buller_scott said:


> They've got good odds and ends that you didn't know you needed until you got there (e.g. Helly Hansen rabbit fur bomber hat with rabbit fur poms hanging off the ear flaps)




I need a better shop.


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## VonHauser (Feb 24, 2020)

another question:

I'm thinking if I get the stiffest bindings I can get and the stiffest boots, my setup is going to be ultra responsive, therefore more efficient and ultimately quicker edge to edge with less energy. Am I right in thinking this? What would the drawbacks be other than maybe the boots wont be as comfortable to walk in?


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## wrathfuldeity (Oct 5, 2007)

VonHauser said:


> another question:
> 
> I'm thinking if I get the stiffest bindings I can get and the stiffest boots, my setup is going to be ultra responsive, therefore more efficient and ultimately quicker edge to edge with less energy. Am I right in thinking this? What would the drawbacks be other than maybe the boots wont be as comfortable to walk in?


The drawbacks:
Too responsive
Must like speed...like 50+mph
Stiller usually means more $
Stiff boots can be comfortable to walk in...especially AT boots 
see https://www.snowboardingforum.com/threads/the-hardboot-ride-downhill.261147/


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## VonHauser (Feb 24, 2020)

wrathfuldeity said:


> The drawbacks:
> Too responsive
> Must like speed...like 50+mph
> Stiller usually means more $
> ...



Just to clarify- the stiffest boots and bindings short of hardboots. Not quite ready for that yet.


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## wrathfuldeity (Oct 5, 2007)

VonHauser said:


> Just to clarify- the stiffest boots and bindings short of hardboots. Not quite ready for that yet.


Ok get some tridents or triaxis or splitboard boots and get some old metal base/disc Ride Spi's or Spark Afterburners with one binding pucks.


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## buller_scott (Jun 10, 2018)

VonHauser said:


> another question:
> 
> I'm thinking if I get the stiffest bindings I can get and the stiffest boots, my setup is going to be ultra responsive, therefore more efficient and ultimately quicker edge to edge with less energy. Am I right in thinking this? What would the drawbacks be other than maybe the boots wont be as comfortable to walk in?


Not trying to talk you out of a responsive boot/binding setup, and "you'll only know if you go", but _in my experience_, the drawbacks of stiffness anywhere in your setup can include:
-- twitchiness / less forgiving of riding at low speeds, or when you're just in the mood to totally relax and mess around
-- less lateral/medial play (this one's important to me - it's why I highly rate Burton's Hinge and ReFlex systems, K2 Lien, etc)
-- E.g. when you're exhausted after an epic, long day on the hill, it's slushy in the afternoon and you're not quite on your game, stiffness _can_ penalise you if you're not paying attention <<< I've been concussed this way. 

Without outright telling you that you're wrong, I feel like selecting gear based on energy exertion (as opposed to riding style, the terrain you're riding, ability etc) is not the best way to go about it. 

In the past, I've ridden at times when I've had an extremely bad back, collapsed arches in my feet, unfit etc. Any bit of help that I could get, to extend my time on the snow, I availed myself of. But would I have gone out and bought a pair of Burton X-Base to put on a Jones Carbon Flagship, for _that _version of me? *Fck no! *


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## JDA (Feb 10, 2016)

I prefer stiffer bidings on my freeride boards and a softer binding on my freestyle boards but I use the same boot for eveything. For example my springbreak twin has union contact on it, my K2 simple pleasures and Manifest share my now pilots and I have switched from using the pillots on my Endeavor Archetype to a pair of Burton X-base EST after trying them on my mates Archetype. The Manifest could probably use an upgrade to the Now Drive as I sized up a little and use it as my hard charging board.


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## Crusty (Nov 8, 2018)

I honestly don't see a stiffer set up requiring an appreciable difference in energy expended. One downside to stiff is that it will transmit more 'small motion'. A softer set up will absorb some of the vibrations from really small ruts and bumps in rough terrain. The more of those vibrations transferred, the more your legs have to absorb, and that requires fine muscle activity, ie. Energy expended.

And yeah, don't see anything to gain by trying to snowboard lazily.


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## WigMar (Mar 17, 2019)

When your set up matches your riding style, you use less effort riding the way you want. Over the years, I've been going to a softer set up. It's working better for my riding style. I thought I needed the stiffest everything to charge hard, but I'm happier in softer boots and responsive bindings that have some lateral play.


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## wrathfuldeity (Oct 5, 2007)

WigMar said:


> When your set up matches your riding style, you use less effort riding the way you want. Over the years, I've been going to a softer set up. It's working better for my riding style. I thought I needed the stiffest everything to charge hard, but I'm happier in softer boots and responsive bindings that have some lateral play.


Op my evolution has been the opposite of WigMar's...but now writing this, kind of miss the softer messing around especially with the on-coming spring conditions


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## buller_scott (Jun 10, 2018)

WigMar said:


> When your set up matches your riding style, you use less effort riding the way you want. Over the years, I've been going to a softer set up. It's working better for my riding style. I thought I needed the stiffest everything to charge hard, but I'm happier in softer boots and responsive bindings that have some lateral play.


Yeah that's where I've headed over the last few years (re: softer setups -- mind you, boards that still have substance e.g. Rome MT, Burton SK, Marhar LJ). I too find myself on the hunt for more responsive bindings this season - I'm loving the look of the new 2021 Rome DOD, but will have to check 'em out against Nitro Teams and Ride A6 when we finally get them in store here.



wrathfuldeity said:


> Op my evolution has been the opposite of WigMar's...but now writing this, kind of miss the softer messing around especially with the on-coming spring conditions


You need to get yourself a setup for those warm slushy days, when you're thinking about frothy, ice-cold beers at the lodge *exactly* as much as spring time party laps.


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## ridethecliche (Feb 27, 2019)

@WigMar and I spent some time talking about this the other day. I'm on a yup with est cartels riding TM3s. I've always read that everything needs to be stiff stiff stiff to get that needed response. 

Will while I was up in Colorado, I took off the stiffeners in the TM3s and really liked it. Rode that way for a day and a half and I honestly don't think I'm going to put them back. I might experiment with adding one back at a time but I found things to be pretty comfortable. 

I rode his pentaquark like that as well and was ripping on it so I don't think it held me back. I think I'm also coming to learn that I really don't like super stiff boards for my riding style. Maybe that will change with time but who knows.


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## WigMar (Mar 17, 2019)

I've been gravitating towards a set up that gives me lateral freedom while staying responsive toe to heel. The feel of K2 tripod bindings (both Lien AT and Lineups with urathane highbacks) have been awesome for this. Together, boots and bindings are one unit on top of the board, instead of the traditional board and bindings being one unit. The urathane tongues and spines on my Ride Fuse boots keep front to back response while allowing more lateral flex. Urathane is soft when warm, and gets progressively stiffer as it gets colder. Therefore, both my boots and highbacks automatically soften for the slushy days and give more support on the cold bomber days. Even when it's really cold out, the entire set up feels softer than what I've rode in the past.


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## Snowdaddy (Feb 2, 2018)

VonHauser said:


> Ok, so I impulse bought a cheap but well reviewed board. Nidecker Merc Snowboard 2019.
> Not a bad price and it seems to fit sort of what I'm looking for at the moment. I got the 159. What do you guys think? If nobody likes it, I'll send the son of a bitch back.


I think you'll be happy. Next time you can get the Area or the Tracer 

I also have a Nidecker (the Tracer) and I really really like it. It's easy to put on edge and the sidecut is great. No idea how your old board is stiffness wise, but a stiffer board is harder to bend into the turning radius at lower speeds.


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