# How scared are you of avalanches?



## hikeswithdogs (Sep 23, 2011)

snowangel99 said:


> I love all your pow photos and videos and all the talk of off piste and heli-snowboarding. But you guys don't talk a lot about avalanches.
> 
> I assume all you backcountry riders are avy trained and well equipped?
> 
> ...


Not scared but I have loads of respect for the mountains and mother nature.

I personally mostly don't go out when conditions are questionable(if I do it's low angle and trees).......plenty of resort riding to do when it's too dangerous in the backcountry and places like Brighton control their sidecountry so even when conditions are sketch many of us know where to go to hike or get fresh lines while minimizing the avy danger.

This thankfully has overall been a great year(after a rough start) for snowpack stability in Utah, with that said I am now the proud owner of a BCA Float27 airbag


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## DrGreeNThumB420 (Aug 19, 2007)

I'm very cautious but new to BC. 



snowangel99 said:


> I assume all you backcountry riders are avy trained and well equipped?


sadly no, a lot of people out there are not.


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## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

In the backcountry, specifically in CO? Scared enough to simply stop riding backcountry.


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## hikeswithdogs (Sep 23, 2011)

DrGreeNThumB420 said:


> I'm very cautious but new to BC.
> 
> 
> 
> sadly no, a lot of people out there are not.



Some of the people I see leaving the gates the day after a big storm.............no or little training, no packs and no gear unless you count the cans of PBR in their pockets.


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## snowangel99 (Mar 11, 2016)

hikeswithdogs said:


> Some of the people I see leaving the gates the day after a big storm.............no or little training, no packs and no gear unless you count the cans of PBR in their pockets.


No wonder ski patrol get frustrated with people!


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## deagol (Mar 26, 2014)

Great topic.

My first intro to avalanches was from the outdoor leader where I went to college. He was an instructor at the Silverton Avalanche School prior to his job there. He told me a story of a guy about my age who's body he helped recover. the finger tips and knuckles were bloody from trying to dig himself out- he died that way. It was, of course, pretty terrifying. 

I was in SW Colorado when a CDOT snowplow was blown off Red Mt Pass and the driver was killed.. so it's always always in the forefront of my mind. 

In my major in collge, one of my classmates did his senior seminar project on avalanches in the San Juan Mountains and I was there for his presentation. I took several "informal" avalanche courses during that era. 

Fast forward many years, and I had a friend who was on search and rescue and he told me a story about digging out a woman who was buried near Rollins Pass. The look of terror was preserved on her face and he had bad dreams about that for a while. 

I took my AIARE Level 1 last year and all these lessons were reinforced. I want to do level 2 at some point in the future. You always keep learning and no certification makes you "safe". An avalanche does not care how much education you have when it buries you. 

Education and equipment can help, but they may also give some users a false sense of security. Judgement is your best defense IMO. It's easier to evaluate terrain than snow stability and even with that, there is always some risk. It's a choice some make knowing what they are getting into, but we see far too many who dive-in head first without a clue. Especially when "the goods" are in plain view of the highway between home and the ski area. More and more people see it and go out there when they probably shouldn't


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## Argo (Feb 25, 2010)

snowangel99 said:


> No wonder ski patrol get frustrated with people!


You have no idea the amount of idiots out riding back country.

Honestly it's one of the reasons we left the central rockies. My son is a freeride competitor and rides back country. We lost a few friends and had close calls. The snowpack is scary there, I wouldn't ride it. I'm big and put a huge load on it when I turn. I am not going to risk others lives. 

We both did avy classes, level 1 and just regional awareness courses. He and one other person that we rode with our of maybe 20 would actually leave a line and go away from the risk. That is scary to know that so many are reckless about it. They all have popped avalanches and as I said, some had died.... 

The reality is that it's part of life in the mountains, you will lose friends to them. I just want to be able to mitigate the risk some with education and a more stable snow pack, the pnw.


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## d2cycles (Feb 24, 2013)

Argo said:


> You have no idea the amount of idiots out riding back country.


Why go out of bounds when it is so much safer to be an idiot inside of the ropes?


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## Argo (Feb 25, 2010)

It is so bad that there are tourist families with kids that venture outside the ropes with zero information or knowledge about where they are going or what they are getting in to. When you try to give them any information at all they just get pissed off at you. There was a group of 9 last season that got lost out the Southwest side of vail. They went through a gate and could not find there way back, ended up in a runout in deep snow. Patrol was out until 9pm(lifts closed at 330) dragging them back in. Go take a hike up to east vail and be inundated with tourists that think it is part of the resort, same with backcountry gates at jackson and plenty of other resorts with good access.... It isnt just avalanches, the terrain alone can and will kill you if you dont know where your going...


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## Alonzo (Dec 30, 2015)

I am scared shitless of avalanches, but that's good, you're supposed to be. The people who don't fear avalanches probably haven't seen a large avalanche run-out or haven't had any friends get hit. Once you lose a buddy, you start to take that shit seriously.

With that being said, there is a lot you can do to prepare yourself. Go to your library and take out a few books, there is lots of good info out there. Take an avalanche course and subsequent refreshers. Learn to read terrain. Always check the avalanche forecasts. Talk to every person you see along the skin track and ask them what they've seen (Have you seen any slides? Heard any woompfs? etc). Talk to the old alpine touring hippy ski dudes that have been out there forever - those fuckers know everything and are just dying to talk about it. 

Get the gear and practice with it - you don't want your first experience with your probe and beacon to be when you are scrambling to dig your buddy out. Always check that your shit is tight before you even leave your house. Check your beacon batteries, if you wear a bag, blow the fucker off every once and again and periodically check to make sure your o-rings are good. 

After that, it comes down to having the right attitude and being disciplined about it. Don't roll the dice. If you feel that something is sketchy, get the fuck out of there. Even if you've hiked for hours and hours, if the mountain is telling you to fuck off, then fuck off. At least you went for a sweet hike in the mountains. The mountains are the throne rooms of the gods and the coolest place to chill whether you're riding or not, so, even if you don't get any turns in, you should still be having a good fucking time. Having a good partner/crew is key in this regard. You have to ride with people who have your back and are as committed to all of you getting out of there as they are to having a fun time. If you are not prepared to hike for hours knowing that you may not ride at all, then you are not cut out or backcountry riding. If you are, but your buddy is not, then he's not invited. No weak links. Fuck that shit.

Don't make bonehead calls. If you get a huge dump in the mountains, let it settle for a couple of days before running out there. If you're worried that the closest stuff to the road will be tracked out and can't abide sloppy seconds, just hike farther. Take fewer and fewer risks as you get deeper into the backcountry. I'll do shit close to the road that I would never do 10 kms out from it, as I know it's going to be a bitch trying to get out of there if I eat shit, and I don't want my partner to have to walk out alone to get help.

Finally, know that you can do everything right and still fucking die. It's like riding a motorcycle - it's super fun and feels awesome, but it's dangerous as all hell and may kill you. If you can accept that, there's lots of fun to be had.


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## Noreaster (Oct 7, 2012)

I've worked with SAR first on CO then in NJ training search dogs for more than 15 years. Have AIARE 2 and C-RAD certs. The worst avy search and recovery I did though was back in Cheget (yep, I'm Russian) as a young trainee. Two skiers, both deceased by the time we found them. One of them was found under 2 meters of snow cleanly folded in half and backwards - heels to the back of the head, both hips dislocated, skis still on. But it wasn't the trauma that killed him, he actually suffocated. You see something like this and it never really leaves you. So yes, I'm very respectful of that power and what it can do. And very much aware of it.

Last year riding off piste in Val Thorens a bad sluff took me quite a long way down the slope. I managed to stay on my feet but just barely. It was a very unpleasant moment, one I don't care to experience again.


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## poutanen (Dec 22, 2011)

snowangel99 said:


> I love all your pow photos and videos and all the talk of off piste and heli-snowboarding. But you guys don't talk a lot about avalanches.


Actually I think most of us here don't ride in the backcountry. Off-piste is still in bounds and in part of the controlled area of our resorts. Yes, some resorts have lift accessable backcountry, but I don't think many forum members use those, and the majority of the members that do, have the training and the gear to give themselves a chance at survival.

I see it as a risk (and no, I haven't been in the backcountry/out of bounds for this reason). Driving to work in the morning carries a certain amount of risk, riding in bounds has a certain amount of risk, and out of bounds/backcountry certainly has a certain amount of risk. I have had the AST1 course put on by our local ski patrol. It was a great course, but at this point I'm still not ready to take on the additional risk.

Now heli/cat skiing/boarding are another thing entirely. Yes they are not "in-bounds" at a resort, but a good heli/cat outfit will have an avalanche forecaster, lots of knowledge of their terrain, and some ability to control the hazards before putting people on the snow. That said, they still loose people to avalanches.

In British Columbia, people have died in bounds, back country touring, and with heli/cat operations. Obviously the lowest risk stat out of those options is to ski in bounds, but the risk is not zero in bounds either.

We lost somebody very close to us last year, and it was tough. I talked to the guys after that had been carried by the slide, and with our friend when he passed on. It certainly hits home.

Our patrol leader put it this way: the avalanche courses give you enough information to put yourself at risk. I'm not sure how much I agree with him but there is a certain amount of truth to that statement. The question is how much risk are you willing to accept, and how much can you avoid the risk by proper trip planning, condition assessment, etc.

At the moment, I prefer the relative safety of in bounds riding... We'll see what the future brings!



Noreaster said:


> (yep, I'm Russian)
> 
> Last year riding off piste in Val Thorens a bad sluff took me quite a long way down the slope.


Yep, gonna need pics... > friend and I were caught in a little slough on a chute at kicking horse that passed us while we were going down. Didn't knock us off our feet but certainly got our attention!

I think the pain I've seen people in while patrolling, where we can get to them within minutes of their problem starting, and where we can get them to a med-hut with pain meds and ambulances within minutes of finding them on the hill, makes me think that I really like being within the ski patrol scope of work area!


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## neni (Dec 24, 2012)

I second every word Alonzo said 


Alonzo said:


> I am scared shitless of avalanches, but that's good, you're supposed to be.
> ...


Some years back when we had a particular bad avy winter and there were news of death tolls every other weekend, also guided groups with certified guides, I actually had moments when I asked myself if I really wanna keep going BC, is it really worth the risk? The answer was yes. 

Actually, the numbers of avy deaths are pretty stable here. Long term statistics (80y) of an average of 25 p.a. even tho there is a huge increas in pol venturing BC in the last years; so the actual ratio of ppl out there/ppl died has decreased. 





> Talk to the old alpine touring hippy ski dudes that have been out there forever - those fuckers know everything and are just dying to talk about it.


+100. 
Talk to everybody, learn from every one you can talk to. Every new person gives you a new small piece, a new perspective.
You'll never fully understand the complex topic of snowcover, it's metamorphosis dependent of so many variables from temperature, weather, and terrain - cos nobody does yet - but you piece by piece you get a better understanding and this allows to fine tune your decisions bit by bit. 



> Get the gear and practice with it - you don't want your first experience with your probe and beacon to be when you are scrambling to dig your buddy out. Always check that your shit is tight before you even leave your house.


And have a plan. If you go with a group, check that every member is fully equipped, everyone has the needed emergency contacts of the mtn, the closest rescue station, knows how to search and dig, knows the plan how to proceed if shit happend. It won't help _you_ if only you are equipped if you're the one who's burried... 

Only ride with disciplined ppl. A dude who gets carried away by the stoke and rides an entire run without stopping at spots which were discussed before is a buddy you don't need (like a safe spot after a hairy spot, still in close enough reach to be able to reach if something happend to the next person; he won't be of any help if he has to skin up 1hr to reach the spot. You're dead until he gets there to even begin to search). 



> After that, it comes down to having the right attitude and being disciplined about it. Don't roll the dice.


Saying "no" is the crux, absolutely. Go with your gut. If it says no, it's NO! Period. If a buddy wants to convince you, and after listening to his arguments your gut still says no? No. 



> Don't make bonehead calls. If you get a huge dump in the mountains, let it settle for a couple of days before running out there.


This is one of the ugliest parts... back in the day, there was enough time to let the snow settle. Nowadays, with the huge increase of ppl venturing out there? This no1 rule is broken all the time. And the result? You can read it in the stats. _Every_ time there's a dump on a Friday, there are deaths on Sat. Every time. I follow the weather, snowfalls, and avy stats all winter long. And this pattern keeps the develish tiny voice "we have to go, otherwise all will be chewed up" mute. 

I've had many classes, read many books and talked to many knowledgeable ppl. I still don't think that I have a good enough grip to go into terrain I'm not familiar with. I prefer to go into our home terrain where I know the entire history of the snowcover, the snowfalls and winddirections of the present season. That's the terrain I feel ok with to make decisions on my own. In unfamiliar terrain/retgions? We go with local guides, to learn from them, to adjust the assessment we do to the one they do.


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## nutmegchoi (Feb 10, 2016)

I think you need healthy balance of fear and confidence over everything (especially extreme sports).
Otherwise, you are going to find yourself in a very bad situation.

I see myself heading out to the gate one day, but also know I will need a lot of preparations.
It is already dangerous enough that I don't need to add my own stupidity on top of it.


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## f00bar (Mar 6, 2014)

I always hear things like, 'Respect the Mountain', but other than a nice sound bite coming from JJ what exactly is that supposed to mean? 

Even if I could I'd probably never go backcountry where an avalanche is remotely possible as it just seems like too much of a learn as you go process and you are doing great and being respectful until you aren't, and then its too late.


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## KIRKRIDER (Mar 18, 2008)

I only enjoy resort pow days, but we had some casualties in the Tahoe area seasons ago more for tree wells than avalanches. Those are scary.

In 2011 Ski Patrol triggered an inbound slide.










After blasting the whole day before. What a day.


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## hikeswithdogs (Sep 23, 2011)

Argo said:


> You have no idea the amount of idiots out riding back country.
> 
> Honestly it's one of the reasons we left the central rockies. My son is a freeride competitor and rides back country. We lost a few friends and had close calls. The snowpack is scary there, I wouldn't ride it. I'm big and put a huge load on it when I turn. I am not going to risk others lives.
> 
> ...


Don't blame you avy conditions in Inter-Mountains(CO) are SUPER scary, I won't even ride BC above treeline in CO unless it's well into springtime.

So much good training out there, if your conservative about your decision making and ride with other like minded responsible people backcountry travel and riding is actually pretty safe(relative to driving in rush hour traffic) if you look at how many people go out and how many people actually get carried away in avalanches.


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## Noreaster (Oct 7, 2012)

neni said:


> Saying "no" is the crux, absolutely. Go with your gut. If it says no, it's NO! Period. If a buddy wants to convince you, and after listening to his arguments your gut still says no? No.


Add a groupthink to this. And the culture of instant gratification: "if I went to the trouble of planning my backcountry trip and get here, by God I'm not leaving without some good turns". How many experienced recreational and even professional riders/skiers have been killed because they disregarded their intuition in favor of stoke or desire for group harmony and conformity?


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## Oldman (Mar 7, 2012)

KIRKRIDER said:


> I only enjoy resort pow days, but we had some casualties in the Tahoe area seasons ago more for tree wells than avalanches. Those are scary.
> 
> In 2011 Ski Patrol triggered an inbound slide.
> 
> ...


Hey Kirk:

What are those "pot holes" just above where the slab let loose in the first picture? Avalanche control attempts at setting off the slide?


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## Argo (Feb 25, 2010)

Oldman said:


> Hey Kirk:
> 
> What are those "pot holes" just above where the slab let loose in the first picture? Avalanche control attempts at setting off the slide?


Bomb holes from avy charges...


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## neni (Dec 24, 2012)

Noreaster said:


> Add a groupthink to this. And the culture of instant gratification: "if I went to the trouble of planning my backcountry trip and get here, by God I'm not leaving without some good turns". How many experienced recreational and even professional riders/skiers have been killed because they disregarded their intuition in favor of stoke or desire for group harmony and conformity?


Well... sometimes its an advantage to not be a harmony-adicted yay sayer


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## KIRKRIDER (Mar 18, 2008)

Oldman said:


> Hey Kirk:
> 
> What are those "pot holes" just above where the slab let loose in the first picture? Avalanche control attempts at setting off the slide?


I feel like a captain now  Yes. That's Ski Patrol playing. 

BOOOOMMMFFF... Love the smell of dynamite in the morning...It's the smell of...Powder.
The slope is safe. You can ride!


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## Noreaster (Oct 7, 2012)

neni said:


> Well... sometimes its an advantage to not be a harmony-adicted yay sayer


I've always said that being a bitch pays off in the end.


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## hikeswithdogs (Sep 23, 2011)

Noreaster said:


> Add a groupthink to this. And the culture of instant gratification: "if I went to the trouble of planning my backcountry trip and get here, by God I'm not leaving without some good turns". How many experienced recreational and even professional riders/skiers have been killed because they disregarded their intuition in favor of stoke or desire for group harmony and conformity?


Always important to have a backup plan to prevent this, it's pretty simple you just decide to ride something safer than the original plan so the entire day\trip doesn't feel like a waste.


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## Alonzo (Dec 30, 2015)

Noreaster said:


> Add a groupthink to this. And the culture of instant gratification: "if I went to the trouble of planning my backcountry trip and get here, by God I'm not leaving without some good turns". How many experienced recreational and even professional riders/skiers have been killed because they disregarded their intuition in favor of stoke or desire for group harmony and conformity?


Totally.

You always need to remember that getting your turns in is a privilege, not an entitlement. The mountains owe you, or anyone else, sweet fuck all.


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## hikeswithdogs (Sep 23, 2011)

Alonzo said:


> Totally.
> 
> You always need to remember that getting your turns in is a privilege, not an entitlement. The mountains owe you, or anyone else, sweet fuck all.


#TRUTH 

Live to ride another day, the mountains will be there waiting might as well be alive for it!!


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## timmytard (Mar 19, 2009)

I have NO official training, just 30 years of snowboarding.

I'm sure there is more that I could learn, but I think I have a handle on it,:dry:

I go out of bounds, by myself almost daily:surprise:
I took Motogp & F1 into the "Danger Permanently Closed" area ealier this year & it was fine.
A few hours later I went back in there by myself & it was the worst I've ever seen it in there, shit was cracking all around me, above, below, everywhere.

A lot of the time I don't like riding that WITH other people. I know enough, but most of the people I ride with don't.

I usually am the first guy down whatever it is we are about to drop into.
You gotta know how to ride when you have people below you, or you could kill them.

The closest I've come, both times were caused by someone else traversing above me.

THAT IS A BIG FUCKIN' NO NO. YOU DON'T DO THAT.

The firat time was maybe 10 years ago, I had no idea it was coming, nobody said a god damn thing. It hit me in the back & sent me into the washing machine.

When I came to a rest everything went pitch black.
I had no idea how deep I was burried.

I fuckin' panicked, instantly started flailing to get out.

Haha, luckily it was only my head, the rest of my body was above the snow. phew.

Second one I was able to avoid. I couldn't see it, but I knew there was a wall of snow coming @ me.

I knew it was time to get the fuck outa dodge, likle right now.
Scooted to the side about 50 feet & watched it go by.

This last time was last year, ring with F1, Neach & someone else I can't remember who? Prolly Moto?
Nope it was Destroy.

Like usual I went fisrt, it was so white out you couldn't make out what was snow, or sky?

I stopped 3/4 of the way down (leaving room for an escape if I needed it)
Luckily I just turned to look back up the hill.

At that exact moment I watched Destroy traverse above me.


This was pretty fuckin' trippy to say the least.

I could see him go across above me, but it wasn't until he was directly over top of me that I seen it.
Or to be more accurate, couldn't see him.
He put out a wave of snow the blocked out him, the sun, everything.

Right above me, lol.

When everything got blocked out by that wave, I knew I had about 5 seconds to get the fuck outa there before a wall & I mean a BIG muther fuckin' wall, of snow took me out.

Destroy is 6'4 230lbs haha, so yeah a big fuckin' wall of snow.



TT


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## timmytard (Mar 19, 2009)

That pic is super zoomed in, the right size of it is the tiny square in the corner.

This is when I knew, shit was gonna go bad if I didn't get the fuck outa there like right now.

These are all screenshots of the video
I'll see if I can find a clear pic of where we were riding

Cause we were not on a green run haha


TT


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## Argo (Feb 25, 2010)

timmytard said:


> When I came to a rest everything went pitch black.
> I had no idea how deep I was burried.
> 
> I fuckin' panicked, instantly started flailing to get out.
> ...


LMAO, this would have been funny to watch. body flopping around with your head in the snow... 

Yeah, I am sure it was scary to have happen to you.....


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## timmytard (Mar 19, 2009)

Argo said:


> LMAO, this would have been funny to watch. body flopping around with your head in the snow...
> 
> Yeah, I am sure it was scary to have happen to you.....


After, haha it was funny, cause basically I had snow on my goggles, that's it.

But I panicked like I was 10 feet under, I didn't know how deep I was.

I was up instantly, like a cat, that initial flail, flung me onto my feet.

That probably engraved in my brain the need to always be looking behind you.

Cause I do now constantly, not so much on groomers.
haha, I'm usually flying by people, rarely does someone passs me.

Haha, & when they do, haha I take offense to that. haha


TT


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## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

timmytard said:


> That pic is super zoomed in, the right size of it is the tiny square in the corner.
> 
> This is when I knew, shit was gonna go bad if I didn't get the fuck outa there like right now.
> 
> ...


See that big rock/cliff sticking out on the slope? it was behind that. We dropped somewere about halfway between the cliff and the peak.










Avalanches are scary as fuck. They're not scary until you've dealt with them...... at first you think, what can a 10ft wide 1ft thick do.... when you see one, it's sooooo much power; more power than you could think of. I've only seen minor slides, and they are unstoppable.

Add to that the fact that you're taken for a ride, land sideways or face down on a soft deep bed with a backpack and snowboard strapped to you. There's no chance.


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## mojo maestro (Jan 6, 2009)

We got a little drop at the hill that had built up a large cornice. I was last to go and I remember it breaking as I slid over. Full white......not sure which way is up.....I start to freak. I immediately think, "Why aren't my buddies helping?". Then I can hear them yell, "Yo man.......stand up!". They could see the top of my head as I was sitting there......


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## snowangel99 (Mar 11, 2016)

mojo maestro said:


> We got a little drop at the hill that had built up a large cornice. I was last to go and I remember it breaking as I slid over. Full white......not sure which way is up.....I start to freak. I immediately think, "Why aren't my buddies helping?". Then I can hear them yell, "Yo man.......stand up!". They could see the top of my head as I was sitting there......


Scary stuff.
Glad everyone on here is aware and prepared.

Growing up in the east I grew up knowing nothing about avalanches. There are no mountains around here. So when we took a trip skiing to Austria in university we had NO clue. We still talk about the day we got yelled at in German for trying to duck a rope. We were really clueless. We didn't duck the rope once we realized what they were saying. People yelled loud and practically tackled us. Thank god.

Sent from my SM-N910W8 using Tapatalk


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## Rogue (Nov 29, 2014)

Speaking of avalanches, 35 year veteran of guided cat skiing died last week in an avalanche in Oregon at Mt. Bailey. Sounds like he gave riders some pretty rad adventures. No one is immune from this. 

The Legend of Oz

I did a SheJumps event in March and Ski Patrol talked to us about avalanches. It was a simple and brief talk on what to be aware of in terms of terrain, conditions and how to use shovel, probe & beacon. Obviously not meant to be replaced with actual avy training, but I learned some things I didn't know. Meadows has side country that most of it is patrolled/bombed/whatever but there are still risks for avalanches & slides within patrolled areas. I can't imagine ever being caught in one. Real & scary shit.


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## nutmegchoi (Feb 10, 2016)

And there was a director of an avalanche awareness centre got killed last month.
You can have all the knowledge you want.
But the mother nature is still in control.

 Avalanche expert killed in avalanche


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## psklt (Jan 5, 2016)

nutmegchoi said:


> And there was a director of an avalanche awareness centre got killed last month.
> You can have all the knowledge you want.
> But the mother nature is still in control.
> 
> Avalanche expert killed in avalanche


Very true. All it takes is one serious incident to basically cancel out years of successful backcountry trips. Generally, I'm not THAT scared of them, but only because I stay away from the higher risk lines. Colorado's snow pack is notoriously unstable. I've been dragged in a handful of very small ones, but nothing enough to hurt me. Not trying to be the next big mountain hero, so I'll keep to mellower stuff. 
Always check the avalanche forecast for at least the week leading up, wind and weather, temperatures, study snow pack when you're there, etc. 

Don't be an idiot. I see way too many inexperienced kids in the backcountry here without even having a backpack.


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## nutmegchoi (Feb 10, 2016)

psklt said:


> Very true. All it takes is one serious incident to basically cancel out years of successful backcountry trips. Generally, I'm not THAT scared of them, but only because I stay away from the higher risk lines. Colorado's snow pack is notoriously unstable. I've been dragged in a handful of very small ones, but nothing enough to hurt me. Not trying to be the next big mountain hero, so I'll keep to mellower stuff.
> Always check the avalanche forecast for at least the week leading up, wind and weather, temperatures, study snow pack when you're there, etc.
> 
> Don't be an idiot. I see way too many inexperienced kids in the backcountry here without even having a backpack.


Irony is he was the one who reported avalanche forecast the day he died.
I still don't think it was his ability though.
He was just at the wrong place, wrong time.


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## deagol (Mar 26, 2014)

I've posted this before, but:


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## wrathfuldeity (Oct 5, 2007)

Even a small sluff of a 1-2" crown can knock you down. 

This local crown was a tad more

Mt. Baker, Avalanche crown, 008_201203240196-Edit | Grant Gunderson Photography


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## killclimbz (Aug 10, 2007)

nutmegchoi said:


> Irony is he was the one who reported avalanche forecast the day he died.
> I still don't think it was his ability though.
> He was just at the wrong place, wrong time.


He was taken out by a cornice. This was not a wrong place wrong time, this was missing the danger. Sorry but there is no wrong place wrong time. That is a cop out. Fact. The clues are there. The biggest issue is catching them, not always that easy. Other factors of course are flat out ignoring them for whatever reason. I guarantee if he had of realized he was in danger of a cornice break he would not have been there or would have been way further back. I have seen cornices break 20+ft back and almost take out a friend of mine by dragging him over the edge. Whatever you think the safe distance is to be back on a cornice, add another 20ft. No joke. Unless I am on dirt or rock I always try to give them a healthy distance if it is of the size I am worried about. More detailed info about the accident here if you want to read up on it. 

What you don't recognize can kill you, easily. If you are getting into this game, read up on the accidents that have happened and take note. This is why they are up there. Hopefully if you come across a similar situation, you'll recognize it and avoid the potential trap. 

I am not saying I am immune. I have had my share of close calls. This past Friday our group almost got taken out by a 400-600lb block of falling ice. Not something we usually see in Colorado, ice fall on a run. We didn't recognize the danger and almost paid for it dearly. I can tell you I am probably never going to mess with that couloir again. Not really an avalanche, but there are lots of dangers to consider when you are out there. An avalanche being the most obvious but not the only one. You have to consider the whole package.

To neni's point. When you are out there and make a plan on how to safely descend a line, *fucking stick to it*. Especially if you are the first one down. Unless there is an obvious danger, the plan you talked about is probably the way to go, don't change it up. It usually means you are going to have a bit more of a boring run than those who follow, because you are being more conservative. Don't be the first if you can't do that. Punting and changing up the line mid run because it'll be better can be a life threatening mistake. My friend who was killed New Year's Eve day 2013 was exactly due to this. Still feeling the repercussions of this accident. It sucks.

^^^Changing the plan mid run after what you talked about has caused more heartache than any one thing I can think of. Don't ignore it.

Finally, take your time out there. The goal isn't to drop a particular line that day. That is the plan. The goal is to come home. Do whatever it takes to achieve that. If it means changing the plan, go ahead and do that. Whatever you were planning on doing will most likely be there for decades down the road. Make sure you achieve your goal. Everything else will come in time.


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## nutmegchoi (Feb 10, 2016)

I can't believe he was alive for a while after that fall.
It's amazing his partner was able to locate him, got him out under several feet snow, perform CPR, revived him and got him moved to safer place.
Hope he's not beating himself with regrets.
Sounds like he did everything he could.


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## deagol (Mar 26, 2014)

wrathfuldeity said:


> Even a small sluff of a 1-2" crown can knock you down.
> 
> This local crown was a tad more
> 
> Mt. Baker, Avalanche crown, 008_201203240196-Edit | Grant Gunderson Photography


holly #$%&&^%$#@ !!!!!

:dropjaw:


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## poutanen (Dec 22, 2011)

wrathfuldeity said:


> This local crown was a tad more


Christ!!! That should go in some of the training courses...


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## wrathfuldeity (Oct 5, 2007)

Below, the third pic was the debris pile but the 4th pic was even worse...the whole arm just released (no setting it off with heli bombs) and the debris (100+') rolled up into the inbounds area and closed bottom part of chair 8 run. It was just darn fortunate that nobody was out at the time. Back then there was some crazy pics floating around the web of the arm slide. And there was a vid of them heli bombing that resulted in the huge crown that slide into another part of the resort (Gunner's/Canyon area). I remember the week before we were commenting that it was loaded and just looked so nasty...but folks were hitting it...so I'd imagine that why they decided to heli bomb it.

Amazing 13-15? Avalanche Crown Photos | Mount Baker Avalanche Control | Grant Gunderson Photography | Unofficial Networks


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## joshcowin (Apr 13, 2016)

As a beginner rider it's scared me abit but I know that when I get decent at riding a Avalanche course along with probe,beacon,shovel,airbag and avalung will be a purchase, (oh and recco system) rather be out of money than out of live.


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## jae (Nov 27, 2015)

:surprise:

Just curious, how is the snow after an avalanche? Is it filled with ice cookies or is it ride-able?


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## timmytard (Mar 19, 2009)

jae said:


> :surprise:
> 
> Just curious, how is the snow after an avalanche? Is it filled with ice cookies or is it ride-able?


Depends which part?

The debris field, no, not so much.
Any & all snow chunks will be hard as rocks.

Like any big snowball looking pieces, will be bullet proof boulders.
Your board will just bounce off them, won't even dent em.

What's left where it slid from, is usually a slick sheet of ice.
Sometimes you can punch through it, other times it's just like smooth concrete.


TT


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## jae (Nov 27, 2015)

timmytard said:


> Depends which part?
> 
> The debris field, no, not so much.
> Any & all snow chunks will be hard as rocks.
> ...


yeah I figured, but had to ask. Will never be in a position where it would happen, but was just wondering. thanks :smile:


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## deagol (Mar 26, 2014)

Current Freeride World Tour Champion Dies in Avalanche Today - SnowBrains.com


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## Oldman (Mar 7, 2012)

Too young, too soon.

I have a daughter her age that rides with me all the time and I simply cannot imagine the pain. RIP


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## Tatanka Head (Jan 13, 2014)

Sad news. 

The weather over the last few days has been wet at low altitudes. Up and down temps. 4°C yesterday. Today was 14°C. 

The recent snow definitely fueled my fantasy. This event is a reality check. I dont know the details, but apparently they were prepared for anything...but it still wasn't enough. You can wear a beacon and a bag, but trauma is another ballgame.


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## killclimbz (Aug 10, 2007)

deagol said:


> Current Freeride World Tour Champion Dies in Avalanche Today - SnowBrains.com


I caught this earlier today. neni posted it in the today I hate thread and I really do hate this.

I have to question wtf is going on with these filming companies? There had to of been pretty obvious signs that a slide was possible. I doubt it was a 35 degree slope, probably a lot steeper and obviously loaded. Yet two people were riding it at the same time? Liz Dailey, JP Auclair, Andreas Fransson, Estelle, and so many others have been killed while filming. I know there is a lot of incentive to get the shot on both the filmer and the athlete. Unfortunately it seems these pressures are putting them in bad situations that would otherwise be avoided. This sucks, far too young.


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## f00bar (Mar 6, 2014)

killclimbz said:


> I caught this earlier today. neni posted it in the today I hate thread and I really do hate this.
> 
> I have to question wtf is going on with these filming companies? There had to of been pretty obvious signs that a slide was possible. I doubt it was a 35 degree slope, probably a lot steeper and obviously loaded. Yet two people were riding it at the same time? Liz Dailey, JP Auclair, Andreas Fransson, Estelle, and so many others have been killed while filming. I know there is a lot of incentive to get the shot on both the filmer and the athlete. Unfortunately it seems these pressures are putting them in bad situations that would otherwise be avoided. This sucks, far too young.


Take a look at Art of Flight. Now I have no idea what conditions really were, you can edit and produce any story you want to tell, but an entire segment was in an avalanche plagued BC and that was the point they wanted to make. 

Avalanches make good story telling. The problem I have with these productions is that when watching them on the screen in 2D no matter how much the monologue tries to stress the danger and reality of the situation you just don't really feel it. It's entertainment, and that spawns complacency and makes people think they can handle things they surely can't.


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## snowangel99 (Mar 11, 2016)

f00bar said:


> Take a look at Art of Flight. Now I have no idea what conditions really were, you can edit and produce any story you want to tell, but an entire segment was in an avalanche plagued BC and that was the point they wanted to make.
> 
> Avalanches make good story telling. The problem I have with these productions is that when watching them on the screen in 2D no matter how much the monologue tries to stress the danger and reality of the situation you just don't really feel it. It's entertainment, and that spawns complacency and makes people think they can handle things they surely can't.


I agree. So there was an entire film crew there and this was completely preplanned...it wasn't one or two people who made the choice for this to be the right day and line to snowboard. An entire film company was involved in this decision making. I have a hard time understanding how this could happen. This is unacceptable on so many levels to the point where these kinds of films should be banned from production. Rest in peace beautiful young lady.

Sent from my SM-N910W8 using Tapatalk


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## neni (Dec 24, 2012)

killclimbz said:


> I have to question wtf is going on with these filming companies? There had to of been pretty obvious signs that a slide was possible. I doubt it was a 35 degree slope, probably a lot steeper and obviously loaded.


The pics of the run they showed in the news were frontal thus hard to gauge but looked >35°. NNE exposition. Fresh snow fell the last days till yesterday, today was level 3. So... you know...
No other info yet; there will be an investigation.


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## snowangel99 (Mar 11, 2016)

I found this online










Photographer
HANDOUT
Tuesday, April 19, 2016

The crack in the snow on the Portalet mountain where an avalanche killed Freeride World Champion snowboarder Estelle Balet is pictured in Oriseres, Switzerland, April 19, 2016. Police Cantonale Valaisanne/Handout via REUTERS

Swiss champ dies in avalanche during film shoot | Reuters.com

And more info
The avalanche that killed Estelle Balet was 1000 meters long
The SLF.ch reports that the size 2 avalanche occurred at 3100 meters on a NNE aspect. One person was caught and killed. The avalanche danger at the time was 3. EAWS reports the avalanche was located at 45.9899 ° N/7.0622 ° E. See where the deadly avalanche occurred on the SLF.ch topo map.

link
http://amountainjourney.com/estelle-balet-avalanche-switzerland/


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## deagol (Mar 26, 2014)

wow, looks like the slab on either side could also cut loose at any minute. That is some serious terrain..

YMMV, but IMO, the backcountry is not for everybody..


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## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

killclimbz said:


> I caught this earlier today. neni posted it in the today I hate thread and I really do hate this.
> 
> I have to question wtf is going on with these filming companies? There had to of been pretty obvious signs that a slide was possible. I doubt it was a 35 degree slope, probably a lot steeper and obviously loaded. Yet two people were riding it at the same time? Liz Dailey, JP Auclair, Andreas Fransson, Estelle, and so many others have been killed while filming. I know there is a lot of incentive to get the shot on both the filmer and the athlete. Unfortunately it seems these pressures are putting them in bad situations that would otherwise be avoided. This sucks, far too young.


Xavier De La Rue narrowly dodged that bullet himself. That avalanche he walked away from looked completely unsurvivable. Unbelievable.


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## killclimbz (Aug 10, 2007)

Yeah, that one was a monster. Amazed that he survived. 

The slope that killed Estelle, based on snowangel's photo looks to be easily at 45 degrees and probably steeper. Prime avalanche terrain in certain climates. Obviously a serious choice even when you are absolutely sure it's stable. So again, why are two people exposed on this slope at the same time? Was the news report incorrect that there were two of them or was this done for the film? If it is for the latter, it shows a serious lack of judgement and protocol. They are seriously lucky it is not two deaths. Maybe the knowledge wasn't there. I know news reports can have facts seriously wrong, but that did bother me. One small mistake after another is what usually adds up in these accidents. I suspect much the same will be discovered during the investigation.

So sad. I am getting to the point of pouncing all over them. I am not sure what penalty I want, or point I am trying to prove. Death is about as harsh as it gets. It is good to just walk away sometimes.


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## timmytard (Mar 19, 2009)

You wouldn't have more than a second or 2 to try & either get out stay on top.

After that you'd just be going way too fast.

Poor thing, that'd be scary as Fuck.


TT


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## neni (Dec 24, 2012)

killclimbz said:


> So again, why are two people exposed on this slope at the same time? Was the news report incorrect that there were two of them or was this done for the film?


Naw... In our news, they mentioned nothing abt two ppl at the same time, just that some other rider went down first and that she was the second to tackle the same run. 
Also http://www.slf.ch/praevention/lawinenunfaelle/unfaelle_aktuell/index_EN only mentions 1 rider.

She triggered the slab at the entry face and was taken down the culoir. Wasn't burried. But it's a 800m way down over rocky surface.


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## gnarstradamus (Jan 12, 2016)

Living in CO the snow pack is pretty sketchy at times and avalanches scare the shit out of me. I echo the mindset that it's a good thing to be that scared of avalanches. I've seen a couple of small slides get triggered where no one was injured, and more than a few times during heli trips I've watched avalanche mitigation being done from the safety of an adjacent peak where they've triggered massive slides. Even if it's controlled, seeing and hearing it while you're standing there with a beacon on is humbling to say the least.

You can always do a level 1 class, but way before that there's a lot of good you can do - there's people riding in the back country without a good understanding of the risk and even without proper safety gear and that has to be step 1. Get your safety gear, practice with it, understand how its used so that if you ever have to use it in a real crisis you'll be able to walk yourself through it and not get caught panicking. Make sure the people you're riding with have done the same. If you want to ease into it, do some guided riding so that you have an expert to ensure the safety of the group. You'll form some good habits and get an idea of what you're stepping into when you get out into the back country.

Before you start planning your own routes gather some basic knowledge of avalanches mainly so you can understand avalanche forecasting, there's a book called Snow Sense that's a pretty good primer on it. Figure out where the public avalanche forecasting is posted, here in CO we have CAIC I'm sure there's something similar in Canada. They will give you data on what the overall risk is, which slope directions are the most hazardous, what type of slide is most likely in the conditions, etc. I have a line in the sand where regardless of how good the snow may be, I won't go out if the hazard is beyond a certain point and that's a good rule to have. A lot of people get too stoked to think clearly about the risk or they get caught up in a group mentality. If you read reports on avalanches where survivors talk about what went wrong you'll see that theme repeated over and over again. If the hazard is within your comfort zone read the detailed forecasts and get as much information as you can about the possible hazard, however low it may be, before going out so you can plan the safest route in and ride the safest lines. 

At the end of the day avalanche hazard may be able to be quantified and there's steps you can take to mitigate the risk, but avalanches are pure chaos. There's plenty of goods to be found on patrolled slopes if you're willing to boot pack a little bit.


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## gnarstradamus (Jan 12, 2016)

snowangel99 said:


> I found this online
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Damn I didn't read about this at all today some how. And only saw the OP when I replied and saw all these posts after. That is so tragic. I can't imagine being in a chute that tight with a slab that big released above me. Absolutely tragic. Part of me thinks that filming is going in a really bad direction. After Jones' and Rice's movies it's almost like avalanche hazard and riding lines with absolute zero margin of error is being used as dramatic effect for the film. I really hope that even a small piece of that mentality didn't contribute to choosing that terrain to film on. Awful, awful news. 

Have they said who the first rider was that dropped ahead of her? It makes it sound like they were doing it at the same time but I don't see how anyone could have gotten out of that line with that much snow coming down it, doesn't make sense.


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## killclimbz (Aug 10, 2007)

neni said:


> Naw... In our news, they mentioned nothing abt two ppl at the same time, just that some other rider went down first and that she was the second to tackle the same run.
> Also SLF > Prevention > Avalanche accidents > Avalanche accidents in current year only mentions 1 rider.
> 
> She triggered the slab at the entry face and was taken down the culoir. Wasn't burried. But it's a 800m way down over rocky surface.


I did suspect those reports might be wrong. Definitely a high consequence line. Just goes to show that an avalanche doesn't need to bury you to kill you.


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## deagol (Mar 26, 2014)

seems easy enough to die on a line like that even without an avalanche..


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## comfortstarr (Feb 9, 2016)

Search "Snow Fall: The Avalanche at Tunnel Creek" for a great multimedia piece the Times put together.

I'm tossing around going to Gulmarg in Kashmir when/if work takes me back to India next winter. I will, of course, hire/use a guide. This thread, however, really gives me something to think about.


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## splashover (Mar 10, 2016)

comfortstarr said:


> Search "Snow Fall: The Avalanche at Tunnel Creek" for a great multimedia piece the Times put together.
> 
> I'm tossing around going to Gulmarg in Kashmir when/if work takes me back to India next winter. I will, of course, hire/use a guide. This thread, however, really gives me something to think about.


Thanks for the heads up on that piece. Crazy good/scary/eye opening. 

I really want to get into some good BC stuff. This reminds me that I got a lot of learning to do beforehand.


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## deagol (Mar 26, 2014)

splashover said:


> Thanks for the heads up on that piece. Crazy good/scary/eye opening.
> 
> I really want to get into some good BC stuff. This reminds me that I got a lot of learning to do beforehand.


here is the link, holy $%&*^% crazy scary story..

Snow Fall: The Avalanche at Tunnel Creek - Multimedia Feature - NYTimes.com


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## deagol (Mar 26, 2014)

here is one that was also very tragic. Colorado's Loveland Pass Avalanche: Lessons Learned | Outside Online


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## gnarstradamus (Jan 12, 2016)

deagol said:


> here is one that was also very tragic. Colorado's Loveland Pass Avalanche: Lessons Learned | Outside Online


https://www.wildsnow.com/9980/sheep-creek-avalanche-site-visit/

Solid site assessment from the Love Pass avalanche. I stick to the professor or the mainline slopes of that pass but I do ride on it (as I'm sure you do/have as well) so I tried to get as much info as I could on what happened. Pretty wrenching to read through when it's so close to home, but it's good to understand and this write up seemed to do the best job of it. That was actually 3 years ago today.


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## snowklinger (Aug 30, 2011)

gnarstradamus said:


> https://www.wildsnow.com/9980/sheep-creek-avalanche-site-visit/
> 
> Solid site assessment from the Love Pass avalanche. I stick to the professor or the mainline slopes of that pass but I do ride on it (as I'm sure you do/have as well) so I tried to get as much info as I could on what happened. Pretty wrenching to read through when it's such a familiar slope they're talking about, but it's good to understand and this write up seemed to do the best job of it. That was actually 3 years ago today.


RIP those dudes.


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## deagol (Mar 26, 2014)

gnarstradamus said:


> https://www.wildsnow.com/9980/sheep-creek-avalanche-site-visit/
> 
> Solid site assessment from the Love Pass avalanche. I stick to the professor or the mainline slopes of that pass but I do ride on it (as I'm sure you do/have as well) so I tried to get as much info as I could on what happened. Pretty wrenching to read through when it's so close to home, but it's good to understand and this write up seemed to do the best job of it. That was actually 3 years ago today.


Yeah, I actually spent a few days with the survivor, Jerome, last year. It left an understandable scar on him, to say the least....

I am actually not too familiar with Loveland Pass, I have always hit up other areas and never made it there for whatever reason...


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## killclimbz (Aug 10, 2007)

Lou is a very knowledgeable guy and I do respect, but his analysis of what the "safe" route is, I am not sure confident in. His suggested route is still in the run out zone. Quite frankly the safest route was from the summit of the pass, booting along the ridgeline to Sniktau. Which would have been a safe place to be. It is also the easiest route out to that area. The only reason I can come with as to why they chose to skin in from Scotty's was because this was a "splitfest" and not a "split boot fest". That mind set from the beginning is what might be that one small mistake that just compounded into the worst recreational avalanche accident we have seen in Colorado. 

You can get laps on Sniktau by skinning, but they were probably just planning on going out there and dropping down back into the Loveland Valley to get back to the splitfest and a car shuttle. I've talked to Jerome some about this accident but not in a ton of detail as to the decisions in this regard. Personally I would find it very hard to talk about it and I have just let him share what he wants. Having another friend give me the full details on what happened when George was killed in an avalanche on NYE of that year was obviously painful. Still is. Multiply that by five and I just can't imagine having to deal with that every day. You also have to find a way to move on. 

That is also the thing with Loveland Pass. It is an area where booting gets you most of the goods quicker and easier than skinning. A rarity.


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## kalev (Dec 17, 2013)

Another death while filming - this time in Haines Pass AK 

_Phillipe Brient, of an Atlin, British Columbia-based search and rescue crew said that Arsenault had fallen off a 30-foot cliff into a terrain trap and was buried by a small avalanche he likely triggered himself. The film crew was able to partially dig out Maxim from the snow before search and rescue officials arrived, but found him already dead._

B.C. man, part of 'extreme skiing' film crew, dies in Haines Pass accident - North - CBC News


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## deagol (Mar 26, 2014)

I wonder if "Kodak Courage" and one-upsmanship might be playing a role in all of this ??


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## neni (Dec 24, 2012)

It's in the name... These guys are doing extreme sports. Extremely dangerous. Riding lines where there's no margin for mistakes, where a slip, a fall, any tiny mistake has extreme consequences... That's an entire different level of BC. 
I'm sure that the media presence does its part in the bigger, gnarlier one-uping game but I assume that that kind of ppl would search the extremes even if there wouldn't be cameras around.


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## gnarstradamus (Jan 12, 2016)

killclimbz said:


> Lou is a very knowledgeable guy and I do respect, but his analysis of what the "safe" route is, I am not sure confident in. His suggested route is still in the run out zone. Quite frankly the safest route was from the summit of the pass, booting along the ridgeline to Sniktau. Which would have been a safe place to be. It is also the easiest route out to that area. The only reason I can come with as to why they chose to skin in from Scotty's was because this was a "splitfest" and not a "split boot fest". That mind set from the beginning is what might be that one small mistake that just compounded into the worst recreational avalanche accident we have seen in Colorado.
> 
> You can get laps on Sniktau by skinning, but they were probably just planning on going out there and dropping down back into the Loveland Valley to get back to the splitfest and a car shuttle. I've talked to Jerome some about this accident but not in a ton of detail as to the decisions in this regard. Personally I would find it very hard to talk about it and I have just let him share what he wants. Having another friend give me the full details on what happened when George was killed in an avalanche on NYE of that year was obviously painful. Still is. Multiply that by five and I just can't imagine having to deal with that every day. You also have to find a way to move on.
> 
> That is also the thing with Loveland Pass. It is an area where booting gets you most of the goods quicker and easier than skinning. A rarity.


I agree with you on the safer route thing - the safest route would be to avoid touring that section all together. My thought on why he outlined the route he did was that even though his "safe" route is still in the run out zone, it is opposite the terrain trap and off of the base of the slab that slid. You'd certainly have to move from that spot when the slide started, but you'd potentially have the footing and time to be able to do so. Regardless, if you take all of the speculation of what could have happened out of the write up I thought it did well explaining how the slide occurred. I think I like his reports because he uses a lot of pictures and I'm just a simple minded fellow.

Also - I apologize for speaking on something that involves someone you know personally, and sorry for your loss of a friend in the Parkview incident. I don't mean to pass judgement on anyone in those tragedies or act like I know more than I've read about on the internet.


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## snowangel99 (Mar 11, 2016)

This thread has gotten so so sad. I have read the stories and videos you guys posted. Its all too heartbreaking


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## killclimbz (Aug 10, 2007)

gnarstradamus said:


> I agree with you on the safer route thing - the safest route would be to avoid touring that section all together. My thought on why he outlined the route he did was that even though his "safe" route is still in the run out zone, it is opposite the terrain trap and off of the base of the slab that slid. You'd certainly have to move from that spot when the slide started, but you'd potentially have the footing and time to be able to do so. Regardless, if you take all of the speculation of what could have happened out of the write up I thought it did well explaining how the slide occurred. I think I like his reports because he uses a lot of pictures and I'm just a simple minded fellow.
> 
> Also - I apologize for speaking on something that involves someone you know personally, and sorry for your loss of a friend in the Parkview incident. I don't mean to pass judgement on anyone in those tragedies or act like I know more than I've read about on the internet.


No offense taken. I've been doing this longer than most people and have been involved in education for over 10 years now. Unfortunately it hits close to home at times. Much the same thing happens with other sports. Rock climbing, kayaking, mountain biking, hell even hiking. All are very fun things to do, but when you get outside of that margin of error, it goes south really fast.

Everything you have said is pretty accurate. Hence no flak from me. Lou's observation about the avalanche mechanics was spot on. It's just omitting the fact there is a legitimately safe way to get to their objective with no danger was remiss. His line is basically right at the toe of the avalanche as you mentioned. I have honestly never gone out from Scotty's. The ridgeline has always made more sense to me for those objectives. Maybe it's a pretty obvious safe line to skin, but I suspect it's a little less obvious than that. If you are going to talk alternatives, why not mention option B but option C too?

Regardless, Sheep Creek has left a mark. This is the accident that has led to big changes coming to the avalanche education curriculum. I think it'll be for the better.


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## timmytard (Mar 19, 2009)

neni said:


> It's in the name... These guys are doing extreme sports. Extremely dangerous. Riding lines where there's no margin for mistakes, where a slip, a fall, any tiny mistake has extreme consequences... That's an entire different level of BC.
> I'm sure that the media presence does its part in the bigger, gnarlier one-uping game but I assume that that kind of ppl would search the extremes even if there wouldn't be cameras around.


I'd have to agree.

People like that, can't help it.

It's in em.

They do that shit, when they're by themselves.

The camera has little to nothing to do with it.
That's just an added bonus.

Nobody gets to this level, wanting to die.
And when you get to that level, YOU are well aware of what you are doing.

Doesn't mean you can't make bad decisions.

You can't get to that level, without knowing.
This IS extreme.


TT


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## neni (Dec 24, 2012)

[Inbound] Avalanche is an inherent risk of skiing, Colorado Supreme Court rules: Colorado Supreme Court rules avalanches are inherent risk of skiing, resorts not liable under Ski Safety Act


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## timmytard (Mar 19, 2009)

I ride out of bounds by myself almost every run I do.
In prone to avalanche area's.
They crack around me all the time.

I think it's a good skill to have, knowing how to ride when you riding moving snow.
Only one time I have gone into something & felt really uneasy about where I was.
Scratch that twice, but one time was on the side of the road, I hiked up an avalanche slide path.
Got too the top & noticed, if an avalanche were to happen, I would be pinned against the barrier ment to hold back the snow from the road.
A 40 foot steel I bean barrier.

Didn't quite go as hard down that as I would have liked, but, that whole death by being pinned & buried thing.


TT


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## killclimbz (Aug 10, 2007)

timmytard said:


> I ride out of bounds by myself almost every run I do.
> In prone to avalanche area's.
> They crack around me all the time.
> 
> ...


Timmy,

Sounds like you have a lot to learn about avalanches. Your general description is the exact scenarios that has led to the death of many riders. It doesn't matter how good you are, avalanches don't care. 

Maybe you are reading the terrain correctly. I don't know. Being an experienced bc rider with many years under my belt, your statement worries me a little is all. This stuff can catch up to you if poke the beast enough.

Ultimately it's up to you how to deal with it. Sounds like your avalanche ability is in the beginner stage while your riding ability is at the expert level. A common thing. It's worth your time to get the education to bring that avalanche knowledge up to your riding level. It is a good way to avoid that uneasy feeling as you'll know exactly what you are getting into or if you should choose a different line.


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## killclimbz (Aug 10, 2007)

neni said:


> [Inbound] Avalanche is an inherent risk of skiing, Colorado Supreme Court rules: Colorado Supreme Court rules avalanches are inherent risk of skiing, resorts not liable under Ski Safety Act


This was the right call by the Supreme court. Unfortunately it seems like it could have the side effect of giving the resorts leeway to be a little less thorough in their avalanche control in favor of opening slopes. I don't think that any resort is going to change their methods because of this, but the possibility is out there.


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## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

killclimbz said:


> This was the right call by the Supreme court. Unfortunately it seems like it could have the side effect of giving the resorts leeway to be a little less thorough in their avalanche control in favor of opening slopes. I don't think that any resort is going to change their methods because of this, but the possibility is out there.


I doubt it. I'm thinking the resorts were probably already operating under the assumption that they were legally protected. Besides, getting people killed is generally bad for business. It's one thing when some out of controlled dude smashes himself from riding/skiing way too fast and beyond his ability, but I think inbounds avy deaths raise a few more eyebrows. It sucked to see that family sue and it would've really sucked to see WP lose the suit. That really was just a freak accident that the resort has limited ability to impact. You wouldn't think it from today's sue happy "it's everyone's fault but my own" mentality, but I'm happy to see that at least some personal accountability still exists.


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## killclimbz (Aug 10, 2007)

Oh I doubt it too. Just that the possibility now more likely exists, now that the Supreme court has made this ruling. It is the first of it's kind for this situation. 

Vail Resorts has to be stoked, considering the lawsuit they are currently fighting.


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## timmytard (Mar 19, 2009)

killclimbz said:


> Timmy,
> 
> Sounds like you have a lot to learn about avalanches. Your general description is the exact scenarios that has led to the death of many riders. It doesn't matter how good you are, avalanches don't care.
> 
> ...


While you would be correct in I haven't had any official bay courses/training I have a lot of years riding this terrain. I know the area's I'm riding like the back of my hand, no joke. Even though it IS out of bounds & there are area's that are more prone than others, we just don't get those types of huge slides where I am.

The mtn just isn't big enough to get that big of one going. 
Whistler is a different story, I don't ride whistler like I do my mtn.
Cause you can get those slides there.

I'm 100% confident that I'm safe where I ride, regardless of conditions.
Definitely not saying I know everything there is to know, It would be wise to learn more.

I just can afford any courses at the moment.
Wanna sponsor me? 
Hahaha, no? Ah come on.



TT


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## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

Doesn't take a big one to kill. The "avalanche" that killed he guy at WP triggering the lawsuit was hardly more than a sluff. Pretty much some snow fell off of a rock and landed on him.


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## killclimbz (Aug 10, 2007)

timmytard said:


> * I know the area's I'm riding like the back of my hand, no joke.*


That is what worries me Timmy. That line right there has literally killed hundreds of people. The "I ride this all the time, it's safe" line has caused a lot of heart ache over the years. It's one of the big traps that kill actually.


I don't know the terrain you are riding. So maybe it is pretty low risk/consequence. Your general description does not make it sound that way though. Less than six inches of snow can fully bury you with no chance for you to escape. As linville pointed out, it doesn't take much.

Come down to Colorado and I'll be happy to go over the basics with you in the sketchiest snow pack in North America. It is what I do.

There are several groups that offer avalanche scholarships for a Level 1 course. There are at least a few in Canada. Usually you have to write some sort of letter as to why you need it. The process is generally easy. These are all offered by the surviving family members and friends of the avalanche victim. 

Having lost friends and acquaintances to avalanches over the years, I can say losing a family member or close friend hurts. It is awful how badly a death like this scars the people left behind. I have now seen it far too many times. I am friends with mothers who in any other reality I should barely know at all. They are damaged by what is in essence a selfish act by the victim. You, me, whoever. 

Apologies for the sermon Timmy. I am not trying to be a dick here. I have a true concern about this. We are just about out of avalanche season for the most part, especially if you are done riding. This is something you should consider for next season. Avalanche gear is not expensive. You probably spend 10x that on riding lifts, and gear. Avalanche courses are a bit more but not unreasonable. Certainly cheaper than a funeral. You also live in a country with some of the best avalanche trainers in the world. The expertise is there. It really isn't hard stuff. 

At the very least pick up Staying Alive in Avalanche Terrain and read it over the summer. It's an easy read and that alone should open your eyes. 

Finally, avalanche education is a life long process. I am still learning, every season. I also find it interesting and fun. I think you will too. Take that first step on the path. I doubt you will stray far once you get started.


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## GDimac (Nov 19, 2015)

Wow, this was a very insightful and needed thread. Learned so much from everyone here and a good reality check esp before our planning for a BC or AB trip in the next winter. 

Some saddening stuff to say the least, and can only imagine the pain on so many levels associated with these losses. My cousin rides mainly in Cypress and told us about a death this past season I think, someone who fell of a cliff if I remember correctly. 

Also, my cuz and his buddies brought my bro to Whistler for 1st time and took him to the "Alpines". Would that be considered backcountry, and if so, is it a high risk area for avys? All I know is my bro came back and was telling us mainly about being cautious of tree wells, as my cuz emphasized how dangerous they can be. But never mentioned anything about avalanches there.

Tho next season is a ways away, def feel the importance to educate myself as much of these dangers before we plan our trip out west. More so now after reading and learning all this from you guys. Cheers.


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## speedjason (May 2, 2013)

Unless I am with experts, I stay inbound. No reason to bet my life on it.
The other thing is what if there are other riders at the bottom that went out bound just before me and I triggered this avalanche. I might get away but he gets killed? That won't be a nice thing to do.


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## killclimbz (Aug 10, 2007)

GDimac said:


> Wow, this was a very insightful and needed thread. Learned so much from everyone here and a good reality check esp before our planning for a BC or AB trip in the next winter.
> 
> Some saddening stuff to say the least, and can only imagine the pain on so many levels associated with these losses. My cousin rides mainly in Cypress and told us about a death this past season I think, someone who fell of a cliff if I remember correctly.
> 
> ...


Generally speaking, riding in bounds in alpine terrain is safe. Ski patrol goes to great lengths to mitigate these slopes. That said, avalanches have happened in bounds. It is a pretty rare thing though. It is not something I would worry about on your trip. The second you duck a rope, leave the resort boundary, you are in avalanche terrain. You could literally be less than 20 ft away from the boundary rope and get killed by an avalanche. It has happened. 

Tree wells are very real threat in the backcountry and at the ski area. Every bit as deadly as an avalanche too.


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## SkullAndXbones (Feb 24, 2014)

i'm not scared of avalanches because there's absolutely zero chance of that happening here but if i lived out west i would really only worry about if i was in the backcountry because resorts seem to do a pretty good job of avalanche control within their boundaries. i know it could still happen in certain spots but i probably wouldn't worry about it.


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## GDimac (Nov 19, 2015)

killclimbz said:


> GDimac said:
> 
> 
> > Wow, this was a very insightful and needed thread. Learned so much from everyone here and a good reality check esp before our planning for a BC or AB trip in the next winter.
> ...


Ah I see, thanks that's a little more assuring.


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## txb0115 (Sep 20, 2015)

I’m not scared of avalanches… I am how ever pretty damn scared of being in the wrong place at the wrong time which is the result of one the many unfavorable situations a person can put themselves in. Top items on my list is not knowing the snowpack, not knowing what aspect I’m on, not knowing what elevation I’m at and not knowing the angle of the slope that I’m on. Those are pieces of info a person traveling in the backcountry needs to know to make good decisions.

The afore mentioned info are some of the keys to survival, but not the most important thing you need. 

The single most important thing a person traveling in avalanche terrain needs though is to have the understanding that it’s okay to turn back, not do a run, stick to a safe predetermined game plan and if in a group situation not let group dynamics lead to bad decisions. Never be afraid to tell someone you're touring with to get fucked if you don't like something and there is a disagreement on travel plans/route, to sum it up, to not get sucked into the moment.

I also don’t ride with a avalung or air bag. I don’t ever want to maybe make a decision because I think a piece of gear will make me safer. The best decision is the safe decision based on knowledge, not gear. 

I am lucky to be someone who has no problem enjoying myself on low angle terrain. This is not a trait shared by lots of people these days, especially in this facebook/instagram era we live in. People see others riding high consequence, exhilarating terrain and are driven to do the same. 

I don’t let myself get sucked into runs that were not my objective. I’m happy as pig in shit making turns in the aspens/cottonwoods here in Utah on a 25˚-30˚ slope all day long.

Do a lot of other people in the Wasatch log considerably more runs on steeper more challenging runs than myself? Yes, they do. I have a much lower level of acceptable risk in a lot of situations than most people out there. 

In some situations though I can tell you I will tour on days when danger is rated at High across all aspects of the compass, by myself sometimes, which most people won’t do, because of that different level of acceptable risk means I don’t deviate from my plans. I’m a firm believer that you can always find safe terrain to ride no matter what the danger rating is, I am also a firm believer as well that most people don’t have the discipline to not deviate on those high risk days, or they don’t know the terrain well enough. 

A lot of the places I go I know like the back of my hand. I have 3 go-to areas between Big Cottonwood and Mill Creek Canyons. Is there the argument that for some people that revisiting the same terrain all the time can lead to complacency? 

Yes, absolutely, it can and does. 

My general feeling though is that complacency becomes an issue in avalanche terrain, I.E. obvious avalanche terrain, slopes between 33˚-45˚ and with people who make poor decisions no matter the day or avalanche danger rating. 

Knowing a place like the back of my hand that is safe low angle terrain, with trees, allows me to know when and where there are aspect changes, this means I don’t end up in a pocket of NW facing terrain when I know I need to stay off of that particular aspect on a given day. It's pretty easy to make a slash or two and go from a safe NE aspect to a not so safe NW aspect if you don't know place like the back of your hand. It also means I know what elevation I’m at at all times without having to really think about it, it also means I’ve been going to that particular area all winter and am extremely knowledgable of what the snowpack will be like under me when I arrive and have already inspected it with a pit a bunch of times already before I even arrive at the trail head on a given day.

I am not a snowpack Jedi. I definitely know more than most, but I’m no Bob Athey or Mark White ( legends here in the Wasatch )

My Jedi skills lie in not getting sucked into terrain that I had not intended to ride, not intending to ride high consequence terrain that often and having tons of safe, fun and very low avalanche probability terrain on lock down. 

To keep myself making good decisions I read _Staying Alive in Avalanche Terrain_ cover to cover every fall and have been doing so now for 15 years. I also have taken a bunch of avy classes and will re-do my AIARE 2 for the third time this fall. I’m a firm believer that the more you’re around people who tell you not to make bad decisions the more likely it is to stick.


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## SGboarder (Jun 24, 2012)

killclimbz said:


> That is what worries me Timmy. That line right there has literally killed hundreds of people. The "I ride this all the time, it's safe" line has caused a lot of heart ache over the years. It's one of the big traps that kill actually.
> 
> 
> I don't know the terrain you are riding. So maybe it is pretty low risk/consequence. Your general description does not make it sound that way though. Less than six inches of snow can fully bury you with no chance for you to escape. As linville pointed out, it doesn't take much.
> ...


Are you seriously trying to reason with TT!?


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## killclimbz (Aug 10, 2007)

SGboarder said:


> Are you seriously trying to reason with TT!?


In this scenario, it is worth my time to try.


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## killclimbz (Aug 10, 2007)

txb0115 said:


> I’m not scared of avalanches… I am how ever pretty damn scared of being in the wrong place at the wrong time which is the result of one the many unfavorable situations a person can put themselves in. Top items on my list is not knowing the snowpack, not knowing what aspect I’m on, not knowing what elevation I’m at and not knowing the angle of the slope that I’m on. Those are pieces of info a person traveling in the backcountry needs to know to make good decisions.
> 
> The afore mentioned info are some of the keys to survival, but not the most important thing you need.
> 
> ...


Gear shouldn't make you any more or less brave. I generally don't use an avalung but I do have an airbag. I can tell on rare occasion it does make me feel better on the right slope when we are in bigger terrain. They type of terrain that does not funnel into a terrain trap or over cliffs. Wide run outs. I've done my investigative work and I am pretty damn sure my decision is sound. Still even the best get caught sometimes. They are still slopes I would have done with or without the airbag.

I generally use the avalung on hut trips. Where I am using a different pack that does not have the airbag component. Avalungs have never given me any extra confidence. Getting fully buried would just suck. Not to mention severe body trauma is much more likely in that scenario. Broken bones and the like.

Moral of the story, if you make sound decisions in the backcountry, the gear won't change you. The best of the best use them, so why shouldn't you?


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## txb0115 (Sep 20, 2015)

killclimbz said:


> I can tell on rare occasion it does make me feel better on the right slope when we are in bigger terrain. ~ They are still slopes I would have done with or without the airbag.


The statement _*I can tell on rare occasion it does make me feel better on the right slope when we are in bigger terrain*_ is just not something I want to be possible for myself, it's different strokes for different folks, so I'm not putting anyone down for using them or for having the feeling you've described, but for me I don't want that feeling or though to be possible and therefore be possible, no matter how remote, in influencing my decision making 





killclimbz said:


> Moral of the story, if you make sound decisions in the backcountry, the gear won't change you. The best of the best use them, so why shouldn't you?


I don't really feel this is a true statement. Yes, there are a lot of highly visible people, highly skilled riders/skiers who use Air Bags, but I wouldn't consider them the best of the best necessarily. 

The data for Air Bags is highly skewed in most cases, as Bruce Tremper talks about here in this blog post

And then there was this death, a full burial this winter here in SLC, with a fully deployed Air Bag This is not an isolated incident, full burials, with fully deployed bags have happened many times... 

Yes, you can find a video of Bruce saying that in certain situations he would wear an Air Bag. I'll say this, what he said in a public setting is what he had to say when he was the director of the UAC as he still needed to be able to solicit donations from manufactures to be able to run the Non-Profit Avalanche Forecast Center. What he says in private was is entirely different thing, I won't put exact words in his mouth, but I can tell you I have never heard him have anything good to say. In 15 years of running into him and other UAC forecasters out in the field I have never not once seen anyone of those people with an Air Bag. Could I have missed them on a day where there did have one on their back? Yes, it is possible, but I've run into those guys on some highly dangerous rated days... 

Furthering my personal belief that "the best of the best" is not really accurate is I've been lucky enough to be going to BC for all sorts of guided trips since 1999 every year with out missing a year, lot's of guided touring and lots of snowcat trips, some years 3 different trips. I have never, not once had a guide with an Air Bag pack. The outfits that do offer them as rentals to the guests, I can tell you those guides are not excited about those rentals in any form and are actually quite vocal about it. 

Since many of these guides have guided people like Terje, T-Rice and Jermey Jones during filming, I'd guess you could consider them the best of the best, if that's the phrase one would care to use...

So the "best of the best" that I know, who are some pretty well respected and accomplished people, that do this for a living, don't use Air Bags.

I will say this, I do have one friend who guides Heli here in the lower 48 and while down here he uses no Air Bag, but when he's in AK every spring guiding for Chugach Powder Guides he does use an Air Bag up there... He has said though the reason is because AK is so different and the guiding protocol up there is just a different game...

I'm not bagging on anyone who uses a Air Bag at all, in any way. 

I choose not to use one for a couple of different reasons, but it boils down to these two reasons...

1. All the people I know that are way more knowledgeable than I, that do this for a living, be it guiding or forecasting, don't really think they are as great as lots of people and/or manufactures make them out to be and choose not to use them for a variety of really good reasons. 

2. I will concede that an Air Bag could in the right situation save my life, but the probability of that is very, very low. Even lower considering in the last 20 years I've only gone for a ride twice and neither of those times would an Air Bag have done me any good. So only twice, would an Air Bag of been able to help me in theory... But everyday day out touring with an Air Bag on my back it would have been possible each and everyone of those days for my knowing that I have "the pack" to influence my decision making in a way that might have not been to my benefit. 

For anyone who has taken statistics and/or logic classes you know that a person would have on one of those days made a decision that normally wouldn't have. It's just not possible to say in the last 10 years of their widespread availability touring 45+ days a year that there would not have been a time when it influenced your decisions. It's just not humanly possible, it's part of the human condition, it would have influenced you, somewhere, sometime. 

So the statistical probability of an Air Bag influencing your decision making is much, much higher than the statistical probability of it saving your life. 

I'm a realist. I except those statics and don't think that I'm better than them. 

I know I'm not the exception to the rule. 

I know that there is a higher possibility of an Air Bag having a negative impact ( bad decision ) than a positive impact ( saving my life )

Once again, I don't think poorly of anyone that wants to use one and don't think they shouldn't if it makes them feel more comfortable.

But they are not for me, when I consider the sum of everything.


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## killclimbz (Aug 10, 2007)

Bruce uses an airbag more than you think. So does Ethan Green, Ben Pritchett, Jim Donovan, Tom Murphy to name a few. The people who are designing the AAIRE curriculum. You don't get any better than that. Best of the best. 

So I stand by my statement.

Also I never said that people don't die that use airbags. Tremper's article clearly shows a correlation that it increases your chances of surviving. Realistically terrain you are traveling in has an impact. Going off a cliff or into trees it is probably not going to have a great effect. I agree. 

16 years of riding the backcounty. Gone through level 2 with lots of specialized clinics. Averaging 50 days a season, lots of professional influence from the best out there. Working in an organization that specializes in introducing people to the beginning for the past 12 years has influenced my opinion on this. A thing is not going to influence your decision making. It is either sound or it's not. 

Your self doubt is probably enough to temper your thoughts that you will be more careless with an airbag. This is a good thing. 

I also agree it's not something that you always have to have. I pull my bag every spring season to save weight. Not having it doesn't make me back off of any given line. It's the snow conditions that do that. You sound much the same.

Airbags are also expensive and for the most part not needed. I do know people that were very glad to have them though. Every once in awhile you do get caught with your pants down for what ever reason. We are human after all.


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## f00bar (Mar 6, 2014)

As a foreword, I will say I have never and likely will never do any backcountry. But the whole not using safety equipment seems to be like saying, "I'm a good driver so don't need to wear a seat belt"

Also, at about 20lb per ft^3 I would think it really doesn't take much of a slide to do you in if things go bad.

I don't have much to add so will only post this once


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## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

I didn't read his post like that at all. It seemed to me that he has a good and honest understanding of how his mind works. Safety equipment is great, but when it comes to avalanches sometimes it doesn't matter. As soon as you're caught, you're relying on a lot of luck to survive. There a lot of factors that can kill you in an avalanche. So, if you think that additional safety equipment might impact your decision making and lead you to potentially make decisions in the moment that are outside of your risk acceptance, then you're probably better off without it.


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## f00bar (Mar 6, 2014)

I'm not sure I 100% buy into the equipment giving a false impression of invulnerability so I choose not to use it. I think it comes down to inconvenience/cost/whatever of it trumping perceived risk. 

As you say, lots of things in an avy can kill you, the equipment can only hopefully increase your chances of survival some finite amount, so why would you take more chances just because you have it?

Just my thinking on it, I get people are wired differently.


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## linvillegorge (Jul 6, 2009)

I think as a society we've been led to believe that the more money we spend the inherently safer we are and I just don't buy it. In avalanche terrain, the #1 thing that's going to keep you safe is your decision making. If you screw up that part, you're essentially playing Russian Roulette. Additional safety equipment may give you better odds in certain scenarios, but there are a lot of scenarios that no safety equipment will protect you from. Just take a look at the Stephens Pass avalanche a few years ago. I know some of those riders were wearing airbags and I'm sure some had avalungs as well, but they made an error in their decision making that got them caught in an avalanche that drug them through a meat grinder of trees. No safety equipment is going to save you from that. Same with the Sheep Creek avalanche here in CO. They triggered a huge slide from below while traversing a bad terrain trap and they got buried DEEP. If that happens, you're dead. Even if they were wearing avalungs I don't think they would've actually been using them at the time because nothing about that incident leads me to believe that they thought they were in any danger. Even if they were wearing them, they were buried so deep and there were so few available for rescue that I doubt they could've reached them in time. If you get buried that deep, you're probably gonna die, that's just cold hard truth of it. 

So yeah, if you think that airbag and avalung will potentially influence your decision making, leave them on the shelf and rely on the best safety equipment you have in avalanche terrain - your brain and decision making. Especially for the above poster. He said he rides the BC a lot alone making very conservative decisions. For that purpose, an avalung would be the worst possible thing. If he ever got caught and buried all that avalung would do is prolong his suffering before his ultimate demise. I don't mean to be grim, it's just the truth.


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## neni (Dec 24, 2012)

If you're the type of guy who is likely to get carried away _because_ you have a different item on you and you know that that's the way your psyche is working, it sure is an understandable decision to not carry this item.
But for me, carrying an airbag does influence my decision as much as simply carrying band-aid would lead me to rather provoke blisters.


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## deagol (Mar 26, 2014)

1) it seems a bit weird to be having this discussion in June, but what the heck...

2) I hope people don't take extra risks just because they are carrying an airbag or Avalung, but who knows ?

3) I don't have an airbag, honestly, due to cost and weight, but do have an Avalung (which is neither expensive or heavy

4) I have a conservative risk tolerance and know the Avalung won't make me safe. It's like putting on a seatbelt: you don't go looking to get into a car crash just because you have your seatbelt on, but why wouldn't you fasten your seatbelt anyway?

5) lots of good points made here by several posters....


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## timmytard (Mar 19, 2009)

I don't have an airbag, I'd like one.
But I do have an avalung, thought I should bring it to baldface.
Didn't use it.

I've never felt the need to wear it at my local hill.

The snow is to wet for the most part, a lot of the time it falls as little pellets.

Dead heads, hitting shit that's just bellow the surface.
That's what I'm worried about the most.

Worst one, stopped my board dead in it's tracks, sent me flying over the handle bars.
Most of the time, it's in the middle of a carve.
That sends you way out of position, that's my biggest fear.
Far more than avalanches.

Me flying into trees, tumbling over shit & into shit.
I guess then the avalanche fear would come into effect.
But it's what happens before that, that's what I fear.

I don't ride whistler the same way, they have REAL avalanches.

Before I drop into anything, even remotely risky.
I've been riding in it for hours.
It's not hard to set em off when you are trying too.
When it's bad, I Am trying to, to see where & how bad.

I don't find myself all of the sudden in an area that is bad.
I know beforehand, & weigh the risks.

Whistler is all in bounds, for the most part.
The odd hike here & there, but that wouldn't be alone.

And falling through hollowed out creeks & waterfalls.
One day you could be riding through them fine & the next day there's a hole the size of a bus, with raging water that sounds like a jet.

Some of em are paper thin, covering huge holes.
You are not getting out of one of those, if you find yourself in one.
They are deep & with freezing cold water rushing through your clothes.
You'd be far too cold & heavy to climb your ass out of there, in under a min or two.
After 2 min, you ain't gettin' out.

Avalanches aren't that high on my list though, they're on it, but not the top.


TT


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