# What's Epic changing?



## ridethecliche (Feb 27, 2019)

I guess we'll find out in two weeks. 

🤔🤔🤔🤔


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## Motogp990 (Mar 10, 2013)

I just took it as the 23rd is when next seasons epic pass goes on sale. 🤷‍♂️


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## f00bar (Mar 6, 2014)

Handies in the parking lot for all.


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## Scalpelman (Dec 5, 2017)

f00bar said:


> Handies in the parking lot for all.


I was thinking massages and a bj. But a handie works too.


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## mojo maestro (Jan 6, 2009)

They've reconsidered burtonavenger's lifetime ban.................epic for everybody..............


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## ridethecliche (Feb 27, 2019)

mojo maestro said:


> They've reconsidered @BurtonAvenger 's lifetime ban.................epic for everybody..............


Wait. He's banned from the Epic pass? Or from SBF?


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## SushiLover (Sep 17, 2020)

ridethecliche said:


> Wait. He's banned from the Epic pass? Or from SBF?


Epic is owned by Vail so he can't ride all the resorts owned by Vail.


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## DaveMcI (Aug 19, 2013)

My first guess is the price


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## kimchijajonshim (Aug 19, 2007)

Maybe the change is giving a shit about the customer experience and not just going for the volume game...


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## WigMar (Mar 17, 2019)

Doubtful


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## ridethecliche (Feb 27, 2019)

SushiLover said:


> Epic is owned by Vail so he can't ride all the resorts owned by Vail.


Wait. I didn't know he was banned from vail resorts. What did I miss? What happened?


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## SushiLover (Sep 17, 2020)

ridethecliche said:


> Wait. I didn't know he was banned from vail resorts. What did I miss? What happened?


He fought some skier on the lift line at Vail. I think the guy accused him of cutting him off or something. He actually told that story a while back. So, he snapped the guy's dick in half, LMAO. I kid you not.


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## WigMar (Mar 17, 2019)

😄 I'd always imagined he throat punched someone.


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## ridethecliche (Feb 27, 2019)

SushiLover said:


> He fought some skier on the lift line at Vail. I think the guy accused him of cutting him off or something. He actually told that story a while back. So, he snapped the guy's dick in half, LMAO. I kid you not.


Internet handle checks out


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## rayt100 (Aug 29, 2016)

Could this be Angry ? Haha


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## SushiLover (Sep 17, 2020)

rayt100 said:


> Could this be Angry ? Haha


No its not him. I saw this video before.


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## Jimi7 (Jan 14, 2020)

rayt100 said:


> Could this be Angry ? Haha



LOL - Angry would have definitely throat punched that skier.


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## SEWiShred (Jan 19, 2019)

kimchijajonshim said:


> Maybe the change is giving a shit about the customer experience and not just going for the volume game...


No, lol. They bought Wilmot Mountain from a family, I think they intentionally don't care because they use it as an excuse to say "if you want real snow come to our resorts out West!" They are more concerned with showing an image that Vail resorts is a good place to go if you go out West, not to give midwestern boarders and skiers good conditions. You know, revamping the restaurant, making pretty signs and fencing, etc. Not investing in making better snow or giving midwestern riders a longer season.

They always open up late here because they don't want to risk wasting money on early snow making. And now they said their closing day was the 14th, they never updated their website to say they are closed, and last night they had all the lights on to make it look open, but the hill looks like this








I think they are just trying to say they were open until March 14th to try and start stuff with the rest of the other hills around here. Next year when everyone who used to go there is mad they had a shorter season than other places around here, they can go "we made it to the 14th! Longer any anyone else around here!"

I don't go to Wilmot and I never have, it's my hill's main competition. But it absolutely pains me to see what Vail Resorts did to this nice family owned place. 

They made bank this season, there's no way they are going to do anything remotely customer friendly. They have a whole new army of customers who are a lot lower maintenance than people who are hardcore about the sport. A bunch of people they can screw over and treat like crap, and they won't know any better because they're new. I imagine that Wilmot's "ride our little hump and get a discount out West" has a lot of new riders who have gone once or twice this season and are dreaming of going out West. There is a good chance this is going to be the target market for a while, it happens with video games when a console is more popular than normal and they start appealing to the new casual market. Nintendo intentionally made games on the Wii easier and more "accessible" because it sold more and had a bigger user base. When they failed with Wii U they made a bunch of games that catered to people who were long time Nintendo fans

It is very likely to happen with a lot of resorts, not just Vail. And it really bothers me, even a midwestern resort is going to make a lot more money dragging in a lot of casuals who want lift tickets, rentals, and gets tired after an hour of riding and goes and drops $50+ at the bar as opposed to season pass holders who go there once, or even four times a week. 

I am legitimately scared the sport has changed and brought in a new market of people who are brand new to the sport and will be much more lucrative to resorts than long time season pass holders and regulars who bring their own lunch, have their own equipment, etc. I really hope a lot of things go back to normal, but who knows?


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## WigMar (Mar 17, 2019)

The beginner area where I ride has been packed this year, and the average skill level of riders on the hill is down significantly. I'm almost surprised when I see someone on a blue that can link turns. There's more rental equipment and ancient boards than I've ever seen out there too. You'd think cap construction was still in production at my hill. 

I don't think I've ever seen snowboarding blow up this hard. How many of these new riders are going to come back next season? Epic must have done well this year.


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## Bspagear (Feb 22, 2021)

WigMar said:


> The beginner area where I ride has been packed this year, and the average skill level of riders on the hill is down significantly. I'm almost surprised when I see someone on a blue that can link turns. There's more rental equipment and ancient boards than I've ever seen out there too. You'd think cap construction was still in production at my hill.
> 
> I don't think I've ever seen snowboarding blow up this hard. How many of these new riders are going to come back next season? Epic must have done well this year.


Snowboarding is a challenging sport. You can get injured easily and progression takes time and a decent level of focus. I can’t imagine the newcomers taking it up this year just so they have something to ‘Gram about during covid becoming die-hard lifers anytime soon, but who knows? 

Not saying that encompasses everyone this season, or that there won’t be an increase, but the difficulty and fear factor to the sport weed out a lot of beginners. I know people who still ride greens after 7+ years on a board. You’ll never see them anywhere but the bunny slopes, and if that makes them happy, who am I to complain?


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## SEWiShred (Jan 19, 2019)

Bspagear said:


> Snowboarding is a challenging sport. You can get injured easily and progression takes time and a decent level of focus. I can’t imagine the newcomers taking it up this year just so they have something to ‘Gram about during covid becoming die-hard lifers anytime soon, but who knows?
> 
> Not saying that encompasses everyone this season, or that there won’t be an increase, but the difficulty and fear factor to the sport weed out a lot of beginners. I know people who still ride greens after 7+ years on a board. You’ll never see them anywhere but the bunny slopes, and if that makes them happy, who am I to complain?


Snowboarding is still challenging but it's gotten way easier since I started 11 years ago. Grooming equipment on my hill has improved dramatically. When we would have days that would make the hill solid ice (40 one day then 20 the next), the new groomers actually turn it into snow cone type snow, which while isn't the greatest is really easy to ride on. We have all these hybrid shapes and board tech that makes it easier than ever, it's not like 20 years ago where you choose between the camber board that's soft for the park and beginners or the camber board that's stiff for riding hard, or the camber board with the set back stance for mellow cruising and deep snow. 

I really expect beginner boards to be a big focus for next season's boards. Soft, mostly rocker, and cheap. Snowboarding is becoming more accessible with better technology to make snow and maintain it through bad conditions, and boards being far more forgiving. All these resorts are probably salivating at the thought of having hoards of potential new customers. I don't expect every place to shift focus, but a lot are, and I would expect Vail to shift the hardest.


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## drblast (Feb 28, 2017)

The beginner thing this year is interesting. I play guitar too and all the cheap beginner guitars are sold out. Everyone who ever thought they might want to learn to play now has at least tried it.

But I think that's a fickle group. There might be some people who just needed a pandemic to get them into something, but I think it's more likely that daily life next year will get in the way of new hobbies and many of the boards that were sold this year will sit unused for a few years before all those people try to sell them used in 2027 for way too high a price. Making beginner stuff for next year seems like a bad idea... For this year it would have been great.

If resorts continue down the path of catering to the casual folks I think it's possible they're going run out of people eventually who want to go for a few days a season, or the business will be extremely cyclical. 

Here in WA, Crystal and Snoqualmie seem to be taking the "pass holder first" approach while Stevens is going the "casual appeal" route. Baker is still it's own awesome thing.

Snoqualmie sold out next year's season pass in like three days. I think it's possible that resorts will segregate themselves along those lines... There certainly seems to be enough passholder demand here to enable at least some resorts to just stop selling day passes entirely. For me it's become a "which two season passes will I buy?"


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## SEWiShred (Jan 19, 2019)

It's not just snowboarding. I usually have a nice garden in the spring that I munch on all summer long, last year, everything was gone. Lots of people who didn't know what they were doing, I talked with a guy who bought two watermelon plants. I was just like, come on man one of those takes up like a 7 foot by 7 foot area, requires a ton of care and water, and will produce so many watermelons you will be giving them away. 

When I bail on this forum for the summer (I always come back, this place is pretty cool), I have stand up jet skis and have been looking for a nice three seater to go wakeboarding and stuff, prices have skyrocketed and everyone wants one. Boat prices are through the roof. So are computer parts. 

Last summer I had plenty of people gawking at a stand up jet ski in a boat, driving 25mph 50 feet behind me. Everything has been very bad lately, I've always been kind of a hermit who enjoyed this stuff by myself and it's not like it used to be. I guess this summer will determine how bad winter will be, but they did extend unemployment benefits until September so summer will probably be crazy on lakes again. Hopefully things are back to normal enough this fall where we don't have tons of people getting unemployment, no jobs, and tons of free time.


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## Donutz (May 12, 2010)

I just ordered a new MTB (yes, I am an all-season gear whore). I was told lead times are up to 250 days if you just wait for one to come in. FFS, that's basically next year. 20% down puts you in the priority line, but even then, it could be months.


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## Scalpelman (Dec 5, 2017)

I think the “get outdoors” trend will continue. Things aren’t going to get back to pre Covid next season. There will still be some restrictions and people who were too afraid to get on the mountain will try next season. As long as they get back to capacity on lifts I’ll be happy.


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## ridethecliche (Feb 27, 2019)

Donutz said:


> I just ordered a new MTB (yes, I am an all-season gear whore). I was told lead times are up to 250 days if you just wait for one to come in. FFS, that's basically next year. 20% down puts you in the priority line, but even then, it could be months.


Bike shortage has been going on since last spring. Prices on used bikes are through the roof as well. I've thought about flipping my rim brake bike since this is the most it'll ever be worth.

Just listed a set of rim brake carbon wheels for sale for more than I paid for them (bought used). Already have a few interested parties at close to asking price. Don't see any reason to hold onto them when my next road bike will have disc brakes.

My gravel bike should be ready early this week. Took forever to find the last few parts for it because it was impossible to deal with the manufacturer.

Looks like the road bike will likely live on the kickr trainer and I'll be riding the gravel bike outdoors as much as possible. I see no reason to suffer on narrow tires anymore outside of situations where the speed actually matters.


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## ridethecliche (Feb 27, 2019)

Scalpelman said:


> I think the “get outdoors” trend will continue. Things aren’t going to get back to pre Covid next season. There will still be some restrictions and people who were too afraid to get on the mountain will try next season. As long as they get back to capacity on lifts I’ll be happy.


I think we're going to be looking at a very different setup next winter. Every American should be eligible for vaccination by late spring/early summer. By next winter, I think things will be back to the new normal, though places might be asking for vaccination status. 

I have a feeling that's definitely going to be a thing for international travel which imho should be a thing by late summer /fall depending on how other places do Werth vaccination. I can the doors between the US and Europe and aus/kiwiland opening up even sooner.


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## WigMar (Mar 17, 2019)

ridethecliche said:


> Bike shortage has been going on since last spring. Prices on used bikes are through the roof as well. I've thought about flipping my rim brake bike since this is the most it'll ever be worth.
> 
> Just listed a set of room brake carbon wheels for sale for more than I paid for them (bought used). Already have a few interested parties at close to asking price. Don't see any reason to hold onto them when my next road bike will have disc brakes.
> 
> ...


I ride 28-45's on my road bikes lol. I'm really more into touring though. Roads are pretty beat up out here too. I shattered my wrist once from hitting a pothole at speed in the twilight when the sun was in my eyes. Over the bars I went. I shattered my fancy POC helmet too.

This is a great point. I should really trim down the bike quiver this year. I've got an old yeti rdh303 that's bad ass that I should sell before I kill myself. It'll be like selling someone a cap constructed board lol, but I still love that bike.


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## SEWiShred (Jan 19, 2019)

WigMar said:


> I ride 28-45's on my road bikes lol. I'm really more into touring though. Roads are pretty beat up out here too. I shattered my wrist once from hitting a pothole at speed in the twilight when the sun was in my eyes. Over the bars I went. I shattered my fancy POC helmet too.
> 
> This is a great point. I should really trim down the bike quiver this year. I've got an old yeti rdh303 that's bad ass that I should sell before I kill myself. It'll be like selling someone a cap constructed board lol, but I still love that bike.


Now is a really good time to sell all that stuff. I'm selling old jet ski parts and computer parts I didn't think anyone would ever want to buy. I think at some point these people who are buying all these new toys are going to have money problems, and there's going to be a huge influx of people selling bikes, snowboards, jet skis, etc.


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## ridethecliche (Feb 27, 2019)

SEWiShred said:


> Now is a really good time to sell all that stuff. I'm selling old jet ski parts and computer parts I didn't think anyone would ever want to buy. I think at some point these people who are buying all these new toys are going to have money problems, and there's going to be a huge influx of people selling bikes, snowboards, jet skis, etc.


I think a lot of it is that people that have a stable income are using the stimulus money as play money...which is basically what it's purpose is. 

I'd 100% sell my rim brake road bike but it's a super solid setup for now and I'll likely end up racing on it if collegiate racing happens next year. That way I don't have to freak if it gets damaged. It's also the only bike I own that will fit on my OG kickr.


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## Jimi7 (Jan 14, 2020)

WigMar said:


> The beginner area where I ride has been packed this year, and the average skill level of riders on the hill is down significantly. I'm almost surprised when I see someone on a blue that can link turns. There's more rental equipment and ancient boards than I've ever seen out there too. You'd think cap construction was still in production at my hill.
> 
> I don't think I've ever seen snowboarding blow up this hard. How many of these new riders are going to come back next season? Epic must have done well this year.


I hit Monarch for a couple days this week - snow was awesome. The massive amounts of people from Texas and Kansas - not so awesome. Let's have the whole family stop right here at this bottle neck before the cat-track for a family photo - bunch of inconsiderate morons. Then you have to deal with tools on the mountain roads too. 

I don't know if you referring to Loveland, but Loveland Valley has been full of newbies. The thing with the ancient gear is I used to take that as a sign that the person had some level of skill, but this year, I think ancient gear means somebody bought or borrowed some old gear and doesn't know what the hell they're doing....


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## ridethecliche (Feb 27, 2019)

Anyone want to get their guesses in before tomorrow?


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## drblast (Feb 28, 2017)

I'll go out on a limb and say it's something that appeals to casual folks and not for regulars but won't make much of a difference to either group practically speaking. 

So...no blackout dates or dramatic reduction in blackout dates.


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## ridethecliche (Feb 27, 2019)

I'm going to guess that the prices will be raised. There might be one or two resorts added that won't change anything for anyone. 

And they're probably going to mention how equipped they're going to be for an unpredictable season.


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## Scalpelman (Dec 5, 2017)

I’m still hoping for blow jobs.


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## ridethecliche (Feb 27, 2019)

Scalpelman said:


> I’m still hoping for blow jobs.


Like... they blow at the job they're doing?


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## Jimi7 (Jan 14, 2020)

ridethecliche said:


> Like... they blow at the job they're doing?


He must mean something else, because they already blow at the job they're doing....


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## ridethecliche (Feb 27, 2019)

They punted it to tomorrow given what happened in Boulder.


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## ridethecliche (Feb 27, 2019)

Okay. Holy wow. They slashed pass prices by 20% across the board. 

That's actually kind of a big deal. 

I actually might have to get the epic student pass now instead of going for my local mountain... Oof.


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## SushiLover (Sep 17, 2020)

Yup I was thinking of switching to IKON after this season but now I might renew mine again.


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## SushiLover (Sep 17, 2020)

My only fear is now more people will join in the EPIC and the resorts will be even more crowded. I believe Angry mentioned Epic sold around 1.9 million passes and IKON/ALTERA sold only 300k last year. These numbers might be doubled or tripled for EPIC next year.


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## ridethecliche (Feb 27, 2019)

SushiLover said:


> My only fear is now more people will join in the EPIC and the resorts will be even more crowded. I believe Angry mentioned Epic sold around 1.9 million passes and IKON/ALTERA sold only 300k last year. These numbers might be doubled or tripled for EPIC next year.


Oh wow. I didn't realize it was that huge.

I mean, it would be awesome to go to Hunter when it snows instead of going to blue if I have a day off, but realistically things like JFBB and hunter are going to be crowded AF.

I think they're banking on the fact that everyone's going to want to travel this year as things open up. I wonder if they're trying their best to undercut IKON as well. Sounds well and good, but I actually want resorts to:
-Stay open when they can
-Have good working lifts
-Treat their workers decently
-Support the local community.

If the goal is to just get a ton of capital upfront and put it into improvements then rad, but I don't really know if that's the end game. Then again a lot of stuff slowed down this year with COVID (like the kanc 8 at loon being pushed back) so maybe they're trying to raise big infrastructure money to put into resorts over the summer? Who knows.

Realistically, they're probably just going to make smaller resorts passable and build more condos near bigger mountains. If Burke Mountain joins the indy pass, that's honestly where I might spend my money next season. It's just a bit hard to justify spending 550 to get a pass to blue if EPIC is the same price (for a student price).

NE Value pass is 335... Fak. Just need to figure out if I'd actually use it. If I'd end up going to Blue more, then that would make way more sense but like...Shit. It's over 200 less.


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## SushiLover (Sep 17, 2020)

*Hunter was a shit show this year even on weekdays. I went to Hunter three times and this year and I couldn't last for more than 2 hours because of the crowd. The one pow day (2 feet) they got, I was there right before they opened the lift and the lines were insane. You're better off going to Jack Frost. I went there seven times this season during the week and it was empty. I actually hit some pow there believe it or not but the runs are short which is fine by me.*



*IKON/ALTERA is not going anywhere anytime soon not this year at least. They have a lot of investors dumping money and buying more resorts to attract everyone from all over the country.



I don't think this is the year they take care of their infrastructure. Vail lost a lot money in the lodging and restaurants reduced capacities. That's how they make their money. I think they're trying to stay above the water for next year until things get back to normal which we still don't know when. When COVID hit, they knew the economic impact would last more than a season or two. I believe they already had that in mind going into this season that's why they reduced the price for next year.



Yeah I was thinking of skipping buying an epic or ikon for this season mainly so I can support some of the smaller resorts and avoid the crowd as well.*


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## SEWiShred (Jan 19, 2019)

Wow, they even did it at Wilmot "Mountain", a small midwestern resort. No lodging or anything there. A season pass there is only $343 now, Alpine Valley was $450 last year. 

I think they want to get a lot of new people who are afraid of the price of snowboarding to bite the bullet on a season pass. An adult lift ticket is $69 peak at Wilmot, $56 on week days. The local pass includes Wilmot as well as several resorts in the Rockies and the East for $583 now. Compared to $450 for the locally owned hill, that's pretty bad for the local hill. It changed from spending almost $300 more to $133 more. Making it a lot easier to get your money worth if you go out west with an Epic pass. I look at it as basically a free flight out West, because they've lowered the price about what a plane ticket costs (especially with travel being so messed up with China Coof)

Vail bought Wilmot as a means to get people out West to ride, that was their only purpose. As far as how this is going to affect the MW, a lot of people will be skipping their local hill and going West with an Epic pass next year. It went from maybe being worth it if you go out West to absolutely being worth it. I won't get one, I'll support my local hill, but a lot of noobs won't be doing that. 

Not to mention the season ended very poorly in Wisconsin. We went from cold and snow to everything melting and shutting down at least a week before normal. And there are a lot of people who are not ready to give up snowboarding and are now looking at an Epic pass and realizing they could make a trip out West and just pay for the flight, lodging, and food, and not have to spend money on tickets. I ton of regulars at AV were at Cascade late this season, a lot. 

This is a big bait to get people to

1. Abandon their local hill if they're not out West (like WI, MN, MI, OH, IN, etc) for lift tickets out west

2. Get a bunch of noobs who are afraid of the cost of snowboarding to bite the bullet, ("if we do go out West it'll be a lot cheaper to just get an Epic Local pass")

3. Hurt local and family owned ski resorts by massively reducing the value of those season passes (Why would I spend $450 at my local hill when I can spend less and get a pass that works at a ton of different resorts?)

It's a really smart move on Vail's part, especially right as people are getting stimulus checks. But it basically confirms for next year Vail Resorts will be noob filled hellholes again. I see what they are doing, it makes a lot of sense from a business standpoint, but it means there's an extremely good chance that a lot of non-Vail resorts will be somewhat more manageable next year. 

I agree with SushiLover, out here they make money with lift tickets and rentals. Out West, they make money on lodging, food, alcohol, etc. Vail's properties were very busy this year but they probably didn't make that much money as normal because of lodging, food, etc. I think this is a huge effort to attract a lot of new customers and I think it's going to work extremely well. I don't know how things are everywhere else in the MW, but our season ended very poorly and I think a lot of people here are upset with how their hills handled the season's end. Vail is basically saying to a lot of people in the MW "buy the epic local pass and come out west or buy the one for your local hill for far less than everyone else"

It will massively affect people's purchasing habits for season passes in the MW. It's very fitting of something the evil empire corporation would do to its competition.


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## deagol (Mar 26, 2014)

wow, I predict crowds at Epic resorts will be through the roof next season due to this...


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## WigMar (Mar 17, 2019)

As a Colorado local, I can't say I'm excited by this. It might be time to say goodbye to some of my favorite resorts.


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## ridethecliche (Feb 27, 2019)

I think there's also a play to hurt some of the smaller resorts so they can eventually be bought off. In the east, epic has a pretty huge presence. 

I'm tempted to get the epic for sure... But might stick with the local hill and ikon in spite of the price. I have zero interest in dealing with lines on a weekday.


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## SEWiShred (Jan 19, 2019)

ridethecliche said:


> I think there's also a play to hurt some of the smaller resorts so they can eventually be bought off. In the east, epic has a pretty huge presence.
> 
> I'm tempted to get the epic for sure... But might stick with the local hill and ikon in spite of the price. I have zero interest in dealing with lines on a weekday.


This is 100% what they are doing. In AV's situation, Wilmot is actually closer to Chicago. So it's going to be closer and cheaper. A lot of noobs think waiting in a line 10 minutes on a weekday morning is normal. Vail might be tempting but I would stay away from any of them. No doubt they blasted these price to tens of thousands of people via email today.


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## drblast (Feb 28, 2017)

It's tempting to me to get one just to go to Whistler for 6 days.

It's obvious they think they can sell way more passes this way to make up for the discount. So, 25% more crowd next year at Vail-owned resorts.

This is turning into a subscription fee for something you may or may not be able to actually use. No matter how much you upgrade infrastructure, you can only fit so many people down a slope at once, and so many cars in the parking lot.


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## SEWiShred (Jan 19, 2019)

drblast said:


> It's tempting to me to get one just to go to Whistler for 6 days.
> 
> It's obvious they think they can sell way more passes this way to make up for the discount. So, 25% more crowd next year at Vail-owned resorts.
> 
> This is turning into a subscription fee for something you may or may not be able to actually use. No matter how much you upgrade infrastructure, you can only fit so many people down a slope at once, and so many cars in the parking lot.


Out here, they sell Epic Passes at Wilmot with the idea that you'll save a ton of money if you go out West and hardly anyone I know that has an Epic Pass actually makes it out West. I've talked to a lot of people who double dip on passes at my local hill and Wilmot, and never make it out West. There's also people that go to AV with a ticket and have an Epic and they tell me they never made it out West. 

I have no idea how this will work out west, but I am pretty nosy as a regular at my hill so I know a good amount about what goes on out here. This will definitely absorb a lot of pass sales from local hills here to people who have never been out west but think it would be amazing to go. Most of them probably won't go, but the damage will be done to the local hills.


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## ridethecliche (Feb 27, 2019)

Honestly, reason we're tied to the ikon is because my gfs parents have a place near loon and it's really convenient to go there. If I had it my way we'd both have student passes to Jay/Burke as well and go up to Burke when loon is crowded. Given our really limited time in this part of our training that just won't work.

I'm hoping things are better for 22-23 if we can actually live in the same zip code. At that point I think we'd do ikon and indy pass. Indy gives you almost 2 weeks in that area now which is pretty hard to beat at the price for weekend trips where we might have to pay for lodging. 

For now I think I'm just going to stick with blue, ikon, and Jay. If I can make it up to Jay for even just a weekend alone here and there, I'll push through the drive for it since I can usually get reasonable lodging there if I'm alone... All I really need is a bed. Blue will be it for the weeknights and single weekend day trips unless I'm heading up places with folks and splitting a drive. And then with ikon, gf and I can do a weekend at loon here and there and go out west to CO/UT/MO for a week maybe since we can do that together. 

Im planning a solo trip to CO for later this year since I have family and friends there I can hang with and convince to come out and play. I'm looking at you too @WigMar 😂😂😂


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## f00bar (Mar 6, 2014)

So do they sell out ever? Or just raise prices as the season comes closer? Point being its tempting, but I don't know if I want to pull the trigger today. I mean I was paying $350 for Butternut. $479 for the NE region pass with a few blackouts seems like a steal.


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## ridethecliche (Feb 27, 2019)

f00bar said:


> So do they sell out ever? Or just raise prices as the season comes closer? Point being its tempting, but I don't know if I want to pull the trigger today. I mean I was paying $350 for Butternut. $479 for the NE region pass with a few blackouts seems like a steal.


I think if there's a place close enough to you for a day trip and you can get out on weekdays it can definitely be worth it!


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## Donutz (May 12, 2010)

So of course with this announcement, Epic put all their websites on the "waiting room" protocol, including things like the weather and webcams pages. FFS.


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## SushiLover (Sep 17, 2020)

Donutz said:


> So of course with this announcement, Epic put all their websites on the "waiting room" protocol, including things like the weather and webcams pages. FFS.


Yea I noticed that I couldn’t access any of the webcams I figured it’s because of the announcement


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## NT.Thunder (Jan 4, 2020)

I hope it was Orca Angry snapped to get his life ban....🤣


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## wrathfuldeity (Oct 5, 2007)

Just saw this...and trying to hang on.

In Historic Move, Vail Resorts Reduces All Pass Prices By 20 Percent Toward Goal of 'Epic for Everyone' (prnewswire.com) 

" risks related to our indebtedness and our ability to satisfy our debt service requirements under our outstanding debt including our unsecured senior notes, which could reduce our ability to use our cash flow to fund our operations, capital expenditures, future business opportunities and other purposes; a materially adverse change in our financial condition; and other risks"


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## ridethecliche (Feb 27, 2019)

SushiLover said:


> Yea I noticed that I couldn’t access any of the webcams I figured it’s because of the announcement


Like.... So you can't see the weather and lines?


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## ridethecliche (Feb 27, 2019)

wrathfuldeity said:


> Just saw this...and trying to hang on.
> 
> In Historic Move, Vail Resorts Reduces All Pass Prices By 20 Percent Toward Goal of 'Epic for Everyone' (prnewswire.com)
> 
> " risks related to our indebtedness and our ability to satisfy our debt service requirements under our outstanding debt including our unsecured senior notes, which could reduce our ability to use our cash flow to fund our operations, capital expenditures, future business opportunities and other purposes; a materially adverse change in our financial condition; and other risks"


Wait... what? 

What is this gobbletygook?


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## f00bar (Mar 6, 2014)

ridethecliche said:


> Wait... what?
> 
> What is this gobbletygook?


They took on massive debt to buy Whistler and haven't been able to sell enough chicken finger baskets due to the pandemic so are looking for cash.

Although this is likely boiler plate stuff that the lawyers put in to protect them from getting sued by investors if the shit hits the fan. I have no idea what their books really look like other than its mostly funded by chicken fingers.


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## SEWiShred (Jan 19, 2019)

A future where Vail starts selling off properties to pay off debt is possible. I never expected them to be in financial trouble. 









Vail Resorts To Buy Canada's Whistler Blackcomb For $1.06 Billion


They are among North America's largest ski industry companies. Ski venues have been looking for ways to share revenue and spread vulnerability to declining snowfall and season pass sales.




www.npr.org





I guess this isn't a surprise, they did drop almost $1.1 billion on Whistler. Which is kind of dumb to me, normally you'd want to buy things you can fix up and make money off of, not go out and buy one of the best things there are.


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## f00bar (Mar 6, 2014)

SEWiShred said:


> A future where Vail starts selling off properties to pay off debt is possible. I never expected them to be in financial trouble.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think you are reading a bit much into a cut and paste from their financial filings. Publicly traded companies have to state all their risks otherwise they get in trouble if something happens.


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## ridethecliche (Feb 27, 2019)

They bought whistler so they could post their long seasons and awesome clips from late in the season. They want it to be a draw that sells more passes. They probably make more than a billion dollars a season on just passes so if they can push that number higher because of the whistler angle then it'll be worth it even if the average pass holder never ends up going there.


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## Jimi7 (Jan 14, 2020)

ridethecliche said:


> They bought whistler so they could post their long seasons and awesome clips from late in the season. They want it to be a draw that sells more passes. They probably make more than a billion dollars a season on just passes so if they can push that number higher because of the whistler angle then it'll be worth it even if the average pass holder never ends up going there.


They want you to go there (or anywhere). That's how they make their money. A guy like me who will pack sandwiches rather than pay $20 for a coke, fries and [email protected]$$ chicken fingers that have been sitting under a heat lamp cost them money. I liked the Epic pass years ago, but Epic has made riding harder in Colorado and the Epic mountains aren't as fun anymore - too many people, the speed police, too much grooming, etc. The pass itself is underpriced, but everything else is overpriced and there are just too many damn peoples.....


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## Jimi7 (Jan 14, 2020)

Hopefully what happens is Epic pulls some people from Loveland. Got to Loveland at 9am today and the main lot was already full, had to go park in the Valley. The main lot is full by first chair???


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## danomyte (Dec 27, 2016)

I live in the flatlands (MN) and travel for all my riding. I avoid resorts that are Epic and will likely avoid IKON in the future as well. I spent 20some days at my 'home' resort in Montana this year and it was much more crowded than in years past. 

I went to a few CO resorts in 2019 with some friends that now live in Denver. One of them actually was one of the winners when they did the Epic Race and has an Epic pass for life. They had shut the tunnel and they were talking about how it was so nice that there was 'no one' there at Vail the day we were there. Meh. It was a powder day and everything was completely tracked by noon.

I'm continuing to seek out smaller out of the way areas that are not so much resorts. I think next year will the year I finally get a split and/or a sled.


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## Pablo$ (Oct 10, 2020)

I'm in the same boat as @danomyte - live in MN, friends out west, but the difference is they said their local mtns were so packed to don't bother til next year. I did the Indy Pass this year and gotta say for some of the bigger hills in the midwest I feel like I got more than my $ worth.


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## Paddletenniscourt (Mar 30, 2021)

Changing is Neither Epic nor Bottom but, It is volatile. 
By the way, This is very general thread.


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## ridethecliche (Feb 27, 2019)

Pablo$ said:


> I'm in the same boat as @danomyte - live in MN, friends out west, but the difference is they said their local mtns were so packed to don't bother til next year. I did the Indy Pass this year and gotta say for some of the bigger hills in the midwest I feel like I got more than my $ worth.


I'm actually semi holding off on getting the EPIC since I'm debating if the indy is going to be more worth it. They said that I can get one with the Jay student pass since it has no restrictions. Ikon+Jay+Indy should be more than enough for what I want to do lol. Student pricing makes the over under of these decisions so much harder since the epic local is only 335.


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## danomyte (Dec 27, 2016)

I just can't ride here anymore - yes I'm spoiled. I grew up skiing and riding in the Rockies. It's nothing compared to the European alps but there are still several smaller non-resort places that are not too crowded out west. I would definitely recommend seeking those out if you are tired of the crowds.


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## kimchijajonshim (Aug 19, 2007)

If anything the 20% off season passes makes me less likely to go with Epic and more likely to go Ikon. Yes, the cost will be cheaper, but that just means more crowds of budget-conscious tourists. Vail resorts are crowded enough as it is. Look at this shitshow (and mind you this was Feb. 2020, pre-COVID).

Besides which, Vail resorts have such a commodified McResort feel-- the only exception I've found is Kirkwood. Alterra resorts tend to have much more personality, and their partnership-driven model keeps them from mandating a singular monochrome corporate feel over all Ikon resorts. From what I gather from employees, Alterra always treats their people better-- which is honestly a pretty low bar for Vail.

Hell, even the Alterra resorts can get pretty crazy crowd-wise. Some of the parking, traffic, and lift line situations I saw at Squawlpine, Mammoth, and Bachelor this year were insane. Maybe that's a COVID-related blip, but Siberia last year at Squaw was already nuts.

I'm actually leaning towards getting a small local resort pass next year. Sugar Bowl for example seems to have pretty damn serious about mitigating crowds-- I was planning on buying a pass this spring, but they're not even selling season passes yet except to 2020 and 2021 pass holders. And one of the best days I had this season was a pow Saturday at a small resort called Homewood when I didn't wait in line for more than 5 minutes. I KNOW that same Saturday was an absolute shit show at Squaw (I rode the previous day, a Friday, and traveling the 15 miles between Truckee and Squaw took *3 hours*... I tried to ride Alpine Meadows the following Sunday and had to reroute to Squaw because they ran out of parking around 8:15).


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## Gladed (Aug 26, 2018)

Epic's 20% scheme looks like an attempt to attract interest in returning Ikon crowds who already earn 10%+ back on their new 21-22 pass, as well as those who are getting credit back April 19th from adventure assurance(stackable). I wouldn't bite on this.

Epic Pass is good for locals living in towns that have resorts/areas owned by Vail who know where the good snow stashes are. IE Park City locals who have a grasp of the terrain around Jupiter, 9990, and Murdock. Even then most of the locals go ride Snowbird and Alta.


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## Scalpelman (Dec 5, 2017)

Gladed said:


> Epic's 20% scheme looks like an attempt to attract interest in returning Ikon crowds who already earn 10%+ back on their new 21-22 pass, as well as those who are getting credit back April 19th from adventure assurance(stackable). I wouldn't bite on this.
> 
> Epic Pass is good for locals living in towns that have resorts/areas owned by Vail who know where the good snow stashes are. IE Park City locals who have a grasp of the terrain around Jupiter, 9990, and Murdock. Even then most of the locals go ride Snowbird and Alta.


I’ve only been to Park City one trip. But 9990 was badass.


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## ridethecliche (Feb 27, 2019)

I have till midnight to figure out if im getting the epic local + indy, just the indy, or the pass to the local resort. Epic local + indy together are cheaper than the local resort pass. Local resort (blue in PA) is pretty nice but I doubt I'd go there enough to make a $550 pass worth it.

Already have Jay and ikon lol. It's possible I'm trying to do way too much here. But I'm shooting for 30+ days next season. Maybe just adding indy wouldn't be a bad bet... I think there are actually little 5-8 resorts within a 5-6hr radius of me 🙃. If I add epic, I'll have JFBB and hunter not too far away. Hunter is perfect for day trips and would be great to hit up on a day off during the week or on a single weekday off.

oops... forgot to post this last night... Guess the blue discount is done with for now.


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## SushiLover (Sep 17, 2020)

Scalpelman said:


> I’ve only been to Park City one trip. But 9990 was badass.


I was in Park City too this past January and I did 9990 on my last day and it was gnarly. The most intense run I've ever done in my life. I probably won't do it again if I was to go to Park City in the future. We actually went up there the week after the skier who died in that avalanche near the spot where he died. We saw where the slab collapsed. I didn't want to go up there but I was pressured by my folks. It was nauseating going up on that lift and when we got off and I looked down I honestly thought about taking the chair back down which you couldn't do. Anyway, so we hiked up to the 9990 elevation point which was exhausting. As we got to the top and sat there to take a breather, the wind pushed one of the snowboards (my brother in law's) down the cliff and that thing slid down over 150 yards before it actually hit a tree and came to a stop. Thank god it hit a tree AND no one got hurt below us. Mind you this is all happened before we dropped in and I was shaking from the get go. I was already thinking in my head this is not going to end well for us. Luckily there was a ski patrol that saw what happened and he actually unstrapped and hiked down to grab the board and met us half way and handed it over. We actually gave him $60 later in the day as an appreciation. I remember that run took us almost an hour to get down through these gullies and around rocks and trees and of course moguls. The base of my board was shot after that run.


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## Gladed (Aug 26, 2018)

SushiLover said:


> I was in Park City too this past January and I did 9990 on my last day and it was gnarly. The most intense run I've ever done in my life. I probably won't do it again if I was to go to Park City in the future. We actually went up there the week after the skier who died in that avalanche near the spot where he died. We saw where the slab collapsed. I didn't want to go up there but I was pressured by my folks. It was nauseating going up on that lift and when we got off and I looked down I honestly thought about taking the chair back down which you couldn't do. Anyway, so we hiked up to the 9990 elevation point which was exhausting. As we got to the top and sat there to take a breather, the wind pushed one of the snowboards (my brother in law's) down the cliff and that thing slid down over 150 yards before it actually hit a tree and came to a stop. Thank god it hit a tree AND no one got hurt below us. Mind you this is all happened before we dropped in and I was shaking from the get go. I was already thinking in my head this is not going to end well for us. Luckily there was a ski patrol that saw what happened and he actually unstrapped and hiked down to grab the board and met us half way and handed it over. We actually gave him $60 later in the day as an appreciation. I remember that run took us almost an hour to get down through these gullies and around rocks and trees and of course moguls. The base of my board was shot after that run.


Yeah, best to chat with people around the resort or meet a local to ride with in those areas. It's rough if you don't know what you're getting yourself into. Decent amount of cliffs, variable terrain, etc. 9990 is a great place to gain some big mountain confidence. Utah resorts like to put you on top of the mountain where you really should have a berth of knowledge on conditions and the terrain. You can easily slip through a gate or miss a line and end up in un patrolled areas. There are a ton of places in resort boundaries where I won't go without a beacon and probably also an ABS pack as well.

Can't imagine the conditions were especially great when you were there this year. Glad you and your crew made it out safe!


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## SushiLover (Sep 17, 2020)

Gladed said:


> Yeah, best to chat with people around the resort or meet a local to ride with in those areas. It's rough if you don't know what you're getting yourself into. Decent amount of cliffs, variable terrain, etc. 9990 is a great place to gain some big mountain confidence. Utah resorts like to put you on top of the mountain where you really should have a berth of knowledge on conditions and the terrain. You can easily slip through a gate or miss a line and end up in un patrolled areas. There are a ton of places in resort boundaries where I won't go without a beacon and probably also an ABS pack as well.
> 
> Can't imagine the conditions were especially great when you were there this year. Glad you and your crew made it out safe!


Agree with you 100%!! always ask around especially the locals and do your homework before you head out to places like that even if it's still in bound OR hire a guide. It gave me confidence for sure after but it also took 10 years out of life. I've been to Colorado many many times, Montana (just once) and Utah (just once) and I gotta say Utah is at the top for me in so many ways. Besides the views there are stunning especially driving on I80 from Salt Lake going towards the Canyons.


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## Gladed (Aug 26, 2018)

SushiLover said:


> Agree with you 100%!! always ask around especially the locals and do your homework before you head out to places like that even if it's still in bound OR hire a guide. It gave me confidence for sure after but it also took 10 years out of life. I've been to Colorado many many times, Montana (just once) and Utah (just once) and I gotta say Utah is at the top for me in so many ways. Besides the views there are stunning especially driving on I80 from Salt Lake going towards the Canyons.


Yep! I lived in Salt Lake for 2 years and Colorado for 5 years. Most places along the rockies are pretty incredible. That being said, there aren't many places where the elevation rises 5000+ feet straight out of the city. Utah is definitely a special place. Next time you're there you should definitely checkout the Cottonwoods(if you haven't already). The shear vertical of those canyons is pretty awe inspiring.


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## SushiLover (Sep 17, 2020)

Gladed said:


> Yep! I lived in Salt Lake for 2 years and Colorado for 5 years. Most places along the rockies are pretty incredible. That being said, there aren't many places where the elevation rises 5000+ feet straight out of the city. Utah is definitely a special place. Next time you're there you should definitely checkout the Cottonwoods(if you haven't already). The shear vertical of those canyons is pretty awe inspiring.


 Definitely will check out the Cottonwoods next time I visit. Powder mountain is on my bucket list to visit. Appreciate the info!!


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