# Burton Cartel ReFlex sizing (M or L)..?



## CK1000 (Aug 27, 2014)

Just posted this as a reply to a question in another thread, but figured I'd post this in it's own thread to make it easier to find since I've seen so many questions about whether to get Medium or Large size in the Cartels. Maybe this will help someone out before they buy the wrong size...

- Remember that w/ Burton bindings you are stuck with what the holes in the disks give you as far as moving the binding "port to starboard" (and the older ones had 5 choices as far as what holes you could use, the newer ones only give you 3)...

IMHO, Large Burton bindings (in the Cartel at least), w/ smaller-footprint boots, are for maybe more like Size 12+. If you're in that size 10.5-12 range, do yourself a favor and check a M/L Cartel with your boots before you buy...

For reference: I have a pair of the Thirty-Two Lashed in Sz. 13 and w/ Cartels in Large, and using the screw holes closest to the back of the disks (holes nearest to the highbacks, pushing the bindings as far forward as you can with them), it puts the boots centered about perfect (equal heel/toe overhang). 
I know Burton says their bindings in Large are for 10+, and I had expected to at least have to use the middle of the three "overhang-adjustment hole" choices in the discs for a Sz.13; but if I do w/ these boots, it's all heel-overhang and the toes of the boots barely poke over the edges... 

Pics are worth 1000... '13/'14 Cartel ReFlex + '13/'14 ThirtyTwo Lashed size US13 (rear binding at -6, and the Capstrap toe-strap makes it look like there's more toe overhang than there actually is...)


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## ML16 (Jul 28, 2014)

Great post.

I have EST Cartels in Large size. I run a size 12 boot (i think) and i have mine set in a similar fashion to avoid toe/heel overhang.


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## CK1000 (Aug 27, 2014)

Thanks. 

Just figured it might be helpful, 'cause I know I would be pissed to have to find out the hard way if I had a size 10 boot, and bought the Cartels in Large...


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## OU812 (Feb 2, 2013)

I'm have 10.5US Deeluxe ID boot in Cartel large binding, on the bottom of the 3 holes on the disc as well and boots are centered perfectly. Riding a Never Summer SL 161. Will post photos once I get home.


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## OU812 (Feb 2, 2013)

Found them...


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## CK1000 (Aug 27, 2014)

OU812 said:


> I'm have 10.5US Deeluxe ID boot in Cartel large binding, on the bottom of the 3 holes on the disc as well and boots are centered perfectly. Riding a Never Summer SL 161. Will post photos once I get home.





OU812 said:


> Found them...


Hmmm.... The main thing that jumps out at me is that US10.5 Deeluxe ID boot looks about the same size as a ThirtyTwo Lashed in US13..! Wow.

Well, pics don't lie, so apparently, depending on your boot's footprint, Burton's binding sizing is either way off (w/ a smaller/reduced footprint boot), OR, not so bad after all (w/ a chunkier boot that has a larger footprint).


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## Brewtown (Feb 16, 2014)

CK1000 said:


> Hmmm.... The main thing that jumps out at me is that US10.5 Deeluxe ID boot looks about the same size as a ThirtyTwo Lashed in US13..! Wow.
> 
> Well, pics don't lie, so apparently, depending on your boot's footprint, Burton's binding sizing is either way off (w/ a smaller/reduced footprint boot), OR, not so bad after all (w/ a chunkier boot that has a larger footprint).


Yeah that really surprised me as well. I wore a bulkier size 12 last year but when I switched to an 11.5 lashed this year I'm no longer able to get centered on all my boards. 

Anyone have any experience with medium cartels with a larger boot size?


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## OU812 (Feb 2, 2013)

Dude, I dunno. I have limited experience. Its my first pair of bindings, first pair of boots but second board. Originally I had a Lib Tech TRS that I returned for warrantee because the bindings holes were drilled crooked. Lib and store were cool about it, but local distributor took too long to get a new board. Asked for money back and bought SL, like it a lot more actually. Boots centred on the TRS as well. *shrugs* 

I'm thinking of buying the Nike Kaiju boots for this season but now I might hold off if I'll have problems with them not fitting the bindings properly but from what I've asked and heard I should be using Large bindings. Even Union when I emailed them told me L/XL.


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## Brewtown (Feb 16, 2014)

OU812 said:


> Dude, I dunno. I have limited experience. Its my first pair of bindings, first pair of boots but second board. Originally I had a Lib Tech TRS that I returned for warrantee because the bindings holes were drilled crooked. Lib and store were cool about it, but local distributor took too long to get a new board. Asked for money back and bought SL, like it a lot more actually. Boots centred on the TRS as well. *shrugs*
> 
> I'm thinking of buying the Nike Kaiju boots for this season but now I might hold off if I'll have problems with them not fitting the bindings properly but from what I've asked and heard I should be using Large bindings. Even Union when I emailed them told me L/XL.


Just read some reviews on Deeluxe boots and sounds like they definitely have a larger footprint, which explains why you haven't had any issues. According to another thread I found they run almost a full size larger than average, where boots with footprint reduction run a size smaller. I can almost guarantee you will run heel heavy with Kaijus in your size. 

Burton recommends large bindings for sizes 10+, but the entire point of this thread is that's just not accurate. Union is a different company making a different product so not sure how that's relevant. Besides most Union bindings have an adjustable heel cup so getting your boots centered on the board is just not an issue.


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## CK1000 (Aug 27, 2014)

Brewtown said:


> Just read some reviews on Deeluxe boots and sounds like they definitely have a larger footprint, which explains why you haven't had any issues. According to another thread I found they run almost a full size larger than average, where boots with footprint reduction run a size smaller. I can almost guarantee you will run heel heavy with Kaijus in your size.
> 
> Burton recommends large bindings for sizes 10+, but the entire point of this thread is that's just not accurate. Union is a different company making a different product so not sure how that's relevant. Besides most Union bindings have an adjustable heel cup so getting your boots centered on the board is just not an issue.


Yeah pretty much...

Just seems like "times-are-a-changin'" and most of the boot companies have moved to where the "reduced footprint" thing is now commonplace (it's like the new "normal").

For me, as a bigger dude with size 13's, it's great because good mid-wide boards are everywhere now and it works out great 'cause I don't have to ride a 27+cm wide truck.

That said, for the peeps in that 10+ to 12ish range (and there's a lot of youz) Burton's sizing can be totally off... Think it's safe to say that if you're in that range and have a smaller-footprint boot, bet on the Mediums working out, check first if you can...


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## OU812 (Feb 2, 2013)

Brewtown said:


> Just read some reviews on Deeluxe boots and sounds like they definitely have a larger footprint, which explains why you haven't had any issues. According to another thread I found they run almost a full size larger than average, where boots with footprint reduction run a size smaller.* I can almost guarantee you will run heel heavy with Kaijus in your size. *
> 
> Burton recommends large bindings for sizes 10+, but the entire point of this thread is that's just not accurate. Union is a different company making a different product so not sure how that's relevant. Besides most Union bindings have an adjustable heel cup so getting your boots centered on the board is just not an issue.


Yea, thats what I fear. I'll buy the boots and be screwed. I'm not thrilled about the Deeluxe ID's either. Its a good boot but my feet hurt afterwards. I guess I have no other choice then to sell the large Cartels.

Sorry to derail this, I just don't wanna clutter the forum with a new thread but would the Union Contact be a good binding for the NS SL? I'm still progressing, learning so I don't need anything super stiff and high end. Thoughts?


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## CK1000 (Aug 27, 2014)

OU812 said:


> Yea, thats what I fear. I'll buy the boots and be screwed. I'm not thrilled about the Deeluxe ID's either. Its a good boot but my feet hurt afterwards. I guess I have no other choice then to sell the large Cartels.
> 
> Sorry to derail this, I just don't wanna clutter the forum with a new thread but would the Union Contact be a good binding for the NS SL? I'm still progressing, learning so I don't need anything super stiff and high end. Thoughts?


I don't have any experience with Union, but from what I've seen seems the Contact is more geared towards a "park binding"... That said, I've pretty much always stuck to Burton bindings (though I'm quite the opposite of a Burton fanboy) as I've had so many very experienced riders tell me that when it comes to bindings "there's Burton, and then every one else", and been to quite a few contests and first-hand noticed pros who had nothing to do with them using them (I remember a Jamie Lynn poster in my house while in college w/ him doing a huge method while rocking Burton Customs); they just seem to work, so peeps use them...
The Cartels are kind of the "industry standard" at a little higher price-point, but really, the Missions, Customs, and even the Freestyles, are really good too; just make sure to get the right size, which's what the point of this post was lol...


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## kaipirinha81 (Jan 20, 2010)

CK1000 said:


> Just posted this as a reply to a question in another thread, but figured I'd post this in it's own thread to make it easier to find since I've seen so many questions about whether to get Medium or Large size in the Cartels. Maybe this will help someone out before they buy the wrong size...
> 
> - Remember that w/ Burton bindings you are stuck with what the holes in the disks give you as far as moving the binding "port to starboard" (and the older ones had 5 choices as far as what holes you could use, the newer ones only give you 3)...
> 
> ...


CK1000 can you tell what is the size of the snowtrooper in the photo? Don't you think you will have toe/heel drag problems? I am just curious because 
I bought an Heritage 160 (25.6 waist width) and my boot size is 11.5 US K2, but with a large footprint and many people told me that I won't have problems and I believe, but I would prefer to have less overhang than it appears on your photos.


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## CK1000 (Aug 27, 2014)

kaipirinha81 said:


> CK1000 can you tell what is the size of the snowtrooper in the photo? Don't you think you will have toe/heel drag problems? I am just curious because
> I bought an Heritage 160 (25.6 waist width) and my boot size is 11.5 US K2, but with a large footprint and many people told me that I won't have problems and I believe, but I would prefer to have less overhang than it appears on your photos.


It's a Snowtrooper X 164 in my pics, and the pics make it look like there's more overhang than there is, it's really only like approx. 1/2" toe and heel, it'll be just fine.
That said, with an 11.5 boot you might have been happier w/ the wider Heritage X, but I would bet you'll still be ok if the K2 boots are "reduced footprint".


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## kaipirinha81 (Jan 20, 2010)

How do I know if my K2 Thraxis are reduced footprint or not? They look very volumous when compared with my salomon faction (however the salomon are size 10.5).
However CK1000 what is the waist width of your snowtrooper X on the bindings insert zone?
Thanks for your help
Best regards


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## chomps1211 (Mar 30, 2011)

I'm thinking this issue has more to do with the board you are trying to mount these bindings on than anything else. I think the trouble is not just specific or limited to the* L* Reflex Cartels. 

I've got 3 pairs of Cartels. One ea. of *M* & *L* non-reflex bindings and a new(er) pair of *M* reflex! I have 2 pair of 10.5, 32 ST Boa boots.

I had a shitload of trouble getting the new pair of *M* Reflex Cartels to center up with my boots & boards. I bought the M reflex specifically to use them on my NS Proto CT 157. I couldn't get them to center up properly on that board! I had put the Non Reflex bindings back on the NS.

I couldn't get them to work with my '10/'11 Arbor Roundhouse 163W either. (…in each case it was always a matter of being very Heel Heavy with the overhang.) As it turned out, the only board I was able to get that boot/bindng combination centered properly on, was my 159 Rome Garage Rocker. 

I do not know the waist width of any of my boards,.. Also, I couldn't tell you if the 32's are a "reduced" FP boot or not. So this information may not help to definitively identify one specific contributing factor for this issue. :shrug: There are some older threads posted where this problem was discussed. So you may want to search around for those threads to gather additional info.


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## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

Yep. Good thread.

Like Chomps said, i find it also depends on the board (waist and sidecut).

I wear sz 11 32 boots and it's hit and miss with the Burton L bindings with Reflex disc: perfect center on a 161 cm Charlie Slasher, too much heel hang on 159 Endeavor Live.

Not a problem with EST. I tried L Genesis on a 158 cm Custom and was perfect.


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## chomps1211 (Mar 30, 2011)

F1EA said:


> Yep. Good thread.
> 
> Like Chomps said, i find it also depends on the board (waist and sidecut)...
> 
> ...Not a problem with EST. I tried L Genesis on a 158 cm Custom and was perfect.



…which is frustrating as hell if you are a fan of Cartel bindings, but don't ride Burton boards!!! 

If you buy from somewhere where you can't return them, you have to cart your board & boots around to the stores to check and see which size will work. What if you're one of those guys who has a couple boards, and just switches one pair of bindings between them? Check 'em all, or risk not centering right with one or more of your boards?

Not sure why Burton would want to go with fewer adjustment/positioning options with their Non EST bindings? But I can say it will certainly affect which binders I consider next time I'm in the market!

(…I get it that in order to make the binding mounts flex, as in Re-flex! They had to eliminate material in the mount! Thus, fewer screw mount holes and less positioning adjustability!)


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## David Giles (Jan 3, 2013)

I posted this in another thread, but thought I'd post it here as well, just as another data point.

I just recently bought a new set of medium Cartel Reflex bindings to go with my size 9.5 Salomon Savage BOA boots, and the fit is close to perfect, although the heel of the boots are a VERY tight fit in the bindings. I LIKE the tight fit because it doesn't give the heel ANY room to wiggle around, but I can't imagine fitting a Salomon Savage boot any larger than mine in the medium Cartels.


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## spino (Jan 8, 2013)

Brewtown said:


> Yeah that really surprised me as well. I wore a bulkier size 12 last year but when I switched to an 11.5 lashed this year I'm no longer able to get centered on all my boards.
> 
> Anyone have any experience with medium cartels with a larger boot size?


i have medium missions (i think the same applies with the cartels) with a 10 northwave boot.
i can center the boot OK if i set the binding as far back as possible (i.e. using the first hole).

my only problem is that the ratchets are a tad too short.

i was debating changing them with an L (mostly so i could use the outer holes to fine tune my stance) but apparently it would be useless as i would probably end up mounting the bindings all the way forward?


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## Brewtown (Feb 16, 2014)

spino said:


> i have medium missions (i think the same applies with the cartels) with a 10 northwave boot.
> i can center the boot OK if i set the binding as far back as possible (i.e. using the first hole).
> 
> my only problem is that the ratchets are a tad too short.
> ...


My experience is with the '13 and '14 Cartels. Can't say for sure that missions have the same size footbed and heel loop, but if they do you will definitely have to set them forward and depending on the board still might run heel heavy. 

I currently have 6 boards with waist widths ranging from 25.0 to 26.4 and the only board I can get my 11.5 Lashed perfectly centered on is my Process. Some of the other mid wides are pretty close but it's frustrating. The Vitas and Cartels are two of my favorite bindings but going forward I don't think I would buy B bindings unless its for a B board.


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## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

Brewtown said:


> My experience is with the '13 and '14 Cartels. Can't say for sure that missions have the same size footbed and heel loop, but if they do you will definitely have to set them forward and depending on the board still might run heel heavy.
> 
> I currently have 6 boards with waist widths ranging from 25.0 to 26.4 and the only board I can get my 11.5 Lashed perfectly centered on is my Process. Some of the other mid wides are pretty close but it's frustrating. The Vitas and Cartels are two of my favorite bindings but going forward I don't think I would buy B bindings unless its for a B board.


Yup. Same here... with sz 11 it's frustrating. I can only center on 1 out of 3 boards. I really wanted the Genesis, but only if i get an EST board, which i doubt.


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## Beeb (Mar 13, 2012)

US11 Burton Imperials, Large Cartels and an NS Proto CT 157. That's as far forward as I can get them. I'm right on the edge of needing a wide board anyway so bindings that don't center make me a sad panda. It's not the worst overhang in the world, but I think my old haggard Union Contacts may go back on it which is a shame. 



















Out of interest has anyone that had this issue resolved it with alternative disks? I don't care much about losing the re-flex bend, centred bindings would be better!


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## kollering (Mar 3, 2015)

*This year old thread....*

Just saved me from buying the Large Cartels Re: Flex. I have a NS Proto HDX 160 and my size 13 Flow Helios probably won't center well with the Cartels lack of port/starboard adjustability.

Research like this is paramount for someone who buys all their gear online.

Props to all those that posted.


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## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

kollering said:


> Just saved me from buying the Large Cartels Re: Flex. I have a NS Proto HDX 160 and my size 13 Flow Helios probably won't center well with the Cartels lack of port/starboard adjustability.
> 
> Research like this is paramount for someone who buys all their gear online.
> 
> Props to all those that posted.


Size 13 should center with L.

Problem is with smaller size 10.5 and 11.


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## Brewtown (Feb 16, 2014)

kollering said:


> Just saved me from buying the Large Cartels Re: Flex. I have a NS Proto HDX 160 and my size 13 Flow Helios probably won't center well with the Cartels lack of port/starboard adjustability.
> 
> Research like this is paramount for someone who buys all their gear online.
> 
> Props to all those that posted.


Honestly I think you would be OK with size 13s. The issue is generally with 'in between' boot sizes. My size 11 32s were just a bit too snug for mediums and hung heel heavy on the larges even when set forward. Unless Flows have a massive footprint they should work just fine. There are enough other options that it's just not worth the headache for me, but the cartels are an awesome binding if they fit.


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