# Double Black steep mogul help?



## BoardieK (Dec 21, 2015)

Snowboard Addiction did something on mogul riding.


----------



## mjayvee (Nov 18, 2015)

IMHO, Crystal’s terrain tends to favor skiers. And there is a lot of not “smooth” riding and traversing involved when riding Crystal with a snowboard (in order to get to the good stuff).


----------



## Myoko (Dec 11, 2018)

My plan when accidentally arriving at the top of a shitty mogul run on some new mountain is literally to waste as little energy as humanly possible on the way down. Don't care how shit I look. There is always a risk when boarding with skiers as they don't mind flat sections either but I have found them very useful in the trees at times.


----------



## Crusty (Nov 8, 2018)

Skier bumps suck. Find a line that fits your type of turn the closest. Use the whole bump, not just the ruts. I actually try and stay on top of the bumps as much as possible, and look for a line with spacing that allows me to link my turns on the backs of the bumps, not in the ruts (unless they're nice smooth radius ruts, which they won't be if they've been touched by a skier).

Also, I have no idea what the correct term for it is, but I use weighted turns; specifically I weight my board perpendicular to the fall line on top of each bump almost like I'm coming to a stop. Then I unweight, rotate the board, and do it again on the next bump on the other edge. Like a jump turn.


----------



## drblast (Feb 28, 2017)

So...the instructional videos on mogul riding are far too basic for what I'm talking about. I'm competent in moguls, even steep moguls. The mogul runs at Crystal off the gondola aren't a problem for me. But I was wondering if there's some Travis Rice of moguls to watch and learn from who can do insanely steep mogul runs in a stylish way. I've searched youtube and all I've found is "here's how you can survive mogul runs, keep your knees bent, traverse across" etc.

The kind of run I'm talking about is when it's steep enough that the "top" of the mogul is actually on a 45 degree incline, with the descending bottom part nearly vertical. Like you're in a snowboard version of the Plinko game on the price is right.

What I want is to see somebody do these runs and think "oh shit, that's a far better mogul rider than I'll ever be. Look how he jumps three moguls and lands in a trough and keeps going!"

Does what I'm looking for exist or do I need to create an entirely new snowboarding discipline here?


----------



## Phedder (Sep 13, 2014)

drblast said:


> The kind of run I'm talking about is when it's steep enough that the "top" of the mogul is actually on a 45 degree incline, with the descending bottom part nearly vertical. Like you're in a snowboard version of the Plinko game on the price is right.
> 
> What I want is to see somebody do these runs and think "oh shit, that's a far better mogul rider than I'll ever be. Look how he jumps three moguls and lands in a trough and keeps going!"


Whenever I've tried to ride that type of mogul field with speed, it's followed by immediate regret. The problem with gapping moguls at that steepness is by the time you land, even cleanly, you've already picked up so much speed and the next mogul is right in front of you so you better bend those knees and get ready to be airborne again. Repeat as many times as necessary before you crash and burn, which usually isn't many. 

As boarders we really are at a disadvantage through moguls compared to skiers, we just can't absorb terrain the same way they can without getting bucked. When it's that steep I actively try to keep the board grounded as much as possible, 20-30 degree pitch is where I'll have more fun and try gap them etc, but at 45 degrees it's just so easy to pick up speed and for it to all go wrong very quickly. I'd say I take a similar approach to @Crusty in that sort of terrain, scrub some speed at the top of a mogul, scope the line in front of me during that 'weightless' second, then drop in again, get a few turns further, and repeat all over again. It does let you get a nice rhythm going, but it's still a far cry from just sending it top to bottom.


----------



## MrDavey2Shoes (Mar 5, 2018)

Plinko, be the plinko ring.

this conversation reminds me of something I once read by Grant Peterson of Rivendell bikes. Rivendell is a bike company that makes old school heavy rigid steel bikes. They are beautiful, comfortable and exhibit a sense of grace. They can fit relitively wide 650b tires and therefore you can mountain bike with them. HOWEVER, if you try to dominate the trail like you would on a full squish bike you’re going to have a miserable time. But if you adapt your perspective as something traveling through the terrain and with the terrain as opposed to over it you can ride pretty much any trail. Cooperate with the terrain, don’t try to beat it. Anyway, O’Doyle rules!


----------



## smellysell (Oct 29, 2018)

Not sure what I do wrong in those conditions, but a lot of times I end up heavy on my front foot too the point of almost or completely going over the handle bars. Not sure what I'm trying to do when that happens, but it's definitely not uncommon.

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk


----------



## Donutz (May 12, 2010)

I have a very similar problem. I can do moguls fine up to a certain steepness and height, then I fall apart. (None of this applies to icy moguls, of course). I'm sure at least part of it is psychological, but there's got to be some mechanical issues as well. Still working on it, but it does feel like it's just a matter of practice.


----------



## Scalpelman (Dec 5, 2017)

I’m glad everyone has the same problem. When they get deep they DOMINATE you. My line is to look for the smallest moguls in the field. Sometimes I resort to log traverses but usually get frustrated with that approach and step on the gas and eventually eat shit. I’ve NEVER seen a snowboarder charge moguls like an accomplished skier.


----------



## masotime (Jan 28, 2019)

I don't have any advice and maybe you've found these videos already, but for the purposes of discussion these are the most "advanced" ones I've been able to find on Youtube:
















TBH the Snowboard Addiction one says similar things, it just doesn't look as advanced


----------



## robotfood99 (Mar 19, 2016)

Realistically, when I run into an unfamiliar field of moguls, it's full on self preservation mode. The tips and techniques might get me through the first few moguls alive but I would be pretty reckless to knowingly charge toward what is essentially one blind corner after another.

I am most likely to ride out from gnarly moguls patches when I am on stiff short twins... which I am not likely to be on in that kind of terrain. Those boards are great for launching and gapping but for moguls, It's just not wise to jump into sketchy landings imo. The short and stiff flex are for fast maneuvering and the twin shape/stance help with center of gravity and quick ejections both ways.


----------



## MrDavey2Shoes (Mar 5, 2018)

Scalpelman said:


> I’m glad everyone has the same problem. When they get deep they DOMINATE you. My line is to look for the smallest moguls in the field. Sometimes I resort to log traverses but usually get frustrated with that approach and step on the gas and eventually eat shit. I’ve NEVER seen a snowboarder charge moguls like an accomplished skier.


Yup, Skiers are the full suspension mountain bikes


----------



## Rip154 (Sep 23, 2017)

Short flexy camber seems about right. Sideslip and absorb like the skiers do, sometimes you can gap, and the worst areas often have the most spray in between. It helps calling them snowboobs instead of moguls. .. and dont mean sideslipping the whole damn hill like videos say, but changing edges in between bumps, keep body kinda centered and go mostly falline, scraping some snow off without using too much angle on the board, just enough to control speed and stay off the nipples


----------



## Crusty (Nov 8, 2018)

Scalpelman said:


> I’ve NEVER seen a snowboarder charge moguls like an accomplished skier.


Because most snowboarders don't try to get good at moguls.

Random story time. I was an instructor back in college. Early 90s. The head instructor was a dude by the name of Winston Churchill. I shit you not. And no, he wasn't a pudgy cigar smoking English bloke, he was a skinny quiet cyclist dude. He was also a hell of a alpine rider. Never saw him on anything other than hard boots and a carving board on groomers, until one spring day I was riding up the North Peak chair at Loon when I see him coming down Flume. Here he comes, mowhawk up, walkman on, flat out carving the bumps at speed. Granted, the bumps were soft but still medium size or better and he was ripping them. He was doing what you kid these days call cross-under carving the whole friggin mogul- each carve starting on the uphill side, apexing the top, then finishing on the downhill side. Never left the snow, never broke a carve, fluid as hell. It was glorious.

Never saw him after that season. If any of you see him, or Cocci, tell 'em Brian with dreads says Hi.


----------



## t21 (Dec 29, 2010)

Xavier's vid is the best of the ones i've seen so far and the one i like to master.


----------



## masotime (Jan 28, 2019)

t21 said:


> Xavier's vid is the best of the ones i've seen so far and the one i like to master.


Xavier's vid is probably the closest to how I've seen skiers do it - kind of a continuous motion through the moguls without hesitation or error. I always think it's possible for me to replicate that motion on a snowboard, but it somehow feels a lot more difficult to execute compared to the way skiers seem to be able to pump / bend their knees at the end of every turn.


----------



## Mike256 (Oct 13, 2013)

Some runs just aren't ok for snowboarders. There is one at my local you can see from the main lift and I always wonder why the hell that snowboarder chose to go down there (very few do). There is no correct answer imo.


----------



## BoardieK (Dec 21, 2015)

drblast said:


> So......
> Does what I'm looking for exist or do I need to create an entirely new snowboarding discipline here?


Sounds like you're on your own mate.


----------



## Snowdaddy (Feb 2, 2018)

Funny how back in the olden days of skiing I'd go looking for good mogul fields to ride


----------



## Phedder (Sep 13, 2014)

Xaviers vid is how I aim to ride moguls most of the time, banked slalom style mostly staying in the valleys of the moguls and scrubbing speed with the tail up the side when you need to. When it gets steeper, that style does not work at all as you pick up way too much speed way too quickly. 

The bowl drblast has pointed out looks more similar to the steepness in Malcom Moores video, and he does a great job of freeze framing the good and bad things he's doing during the run. As far as his riding goes on that terrain, there's a lot more traversing and 'survival riding' in it than how I expect drblast wants to ride that terrain. They're also relatively small moguls. The icy conditions definitely don't help him, but if there was more grip available and he was riding more down the fall line, I'd want to see him try to carve the board up hill a little at the end of each mogul. That should help better control speed while keeping a rhythm instead of the semi sideslip traverse method he takes a few times. If those moguls were a bit bigger, it's exactly where I'd have to use the 'Stop-Start' method Crusty and myself wrote a little about. You could combine that with Xaviers in the valleys way of riding them for a few turns, then get up on top of a mogul to stall for a second, scope the line below, back into the valleys for 2 or 3 more moguls, then back on top to scope again. Would love to see someone shred them at speed the whole time, but I'm not convinced that's possible outside of the most elite level riders. I'd probably be more impressed with that than the next 1800 triple cork!


----------



## drblast (Feb 28, 2017)

BoardieK said:


> Sounds like you're on your own mate.


haha, yeah, at least it's a bit validating to hear Xavier say "yeah this pretty much just sucks, I try to avoid it."



Phedder said:


> Xaviers vid is how I aim to ride moguls most of the time, banked slalom style mostly staying in the valleys of the moguls and scrubbing speed with the tail up the side when you need to. When it gets steeper, that style does not work at all as you pick up way too much speed way too quickly.
> 
> The bowl drblast has pointed out looks more similar to the steepness in Malcom Moores video, and he does a great job of freeze framing the good and bad things he's doing during the run. As far as his riding goes on that terrain, there's a lot more traversing and 'survival riding' in it than how I expect drblast wants to ride that terrain. They're also relatively small moguls. The icy conditions definitely don't help him, but if there was more grip available and he was riding more down the fall line, I'd want to see him try to carve the board up hill a little at the end of each mogul. That should help better control speed while keeping a rhythm instead of the semi sideslip traverse method he takes a few times. If those moguls were a bit bigger, it's exactly where I'd have to use the 'Stop-Start' method Crusty and myself wrote a little about. You could combine that with Xaviers in the valleys way of riding them for a few turns, then get up on top of a mogul to stall for a second, scope the line below, back into the valleys for 2 or 3 more moguls, then back on top to scope again. Would love to see someone shred them at speed the whole time, but I'm not convinced that's possible outside of the most elite level riders. I'd probably be more impressed with that than the next 1800 triple cork!


The run is extremely steep up top, to the point where you can't see the top of the run until you lean out over the top edge. It mellows out mid-way but getting to that point is survival mode. The moguls are like a banked slalom course where there's no real "riding over the top" of them because you'd fall off the other side. I think I pretty much do the Xavier speed scrub thing which feels like a windshield wiper motion to me, and traverse when I'm not able to maintain that. It gets me down, slowly.

But now I feel like maybe I should dedicate the rest of my life to riding this bowl well.


----------



## smellysell (Oct 29, 2018)

drblast said:


> haha, yeah, at least it's a bit validating to hear Xavier say "yeah this pretty much just sucks, I try to avoid it."
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Is there stuff under it you want to get to? Sounds like the goal of my life would be avoiding it! 

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk


----------



## Rip154 (Sep 23, 2017)

i prefer moguls to slaloming insecure skiers on the icy patches that once was groomers


----------



## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

drblast said:


> "yeah this pretty much just sucks, I try to avoid it."


This is the reason you don't find much in the way of proper advice.

Basically, that's the kind of crap you do when you HAVE to, not because you want to.

There is absolutely ZERO way of doing moguls with "style", because moguls simply aren't embedded to the roots of snowboarding, and i have feeling they never will. Has there EVER been a magazine cover featuring a snowboarder riding down a super hardcore gnarly mogul run? 

Hmmm So what did I just say? I don't know. Not very helpful...
I guess i can ride down steep-ish mogul runs decently and probably have a 'technique' to do so, but the bottom line is... just Survive them. Save my legs for what I want to actually enjoy; because Plan A is always: Avoid them.


----------



## ridethecliche (Feb 27, 2019)

Those 'moguls' in XV's video looked more like a banked slalom run.
Juicy compared to some of the ish I've done out here on the ice coast.

I will say that I love mid day powder moguls. Like when there's still enough soft snow everywhere and the skiers haven't made the valleys 5 ft deep. I have a blast doing those on the yup. GF and I both seek them out in good conditions.

Edit: Looked at the TB video. Same deal. That doesn't look like a mogul field I've ever had to think twice about. I saw powder flying during turns.


----------



## Oldman (Mar 7, 2012)

ridethecliche said:


> Those 'moguls' in XV's video looked more like a banked slalom run.
> Juicy compared to some of the ish I've done out here on the ice coast.
> 
> I will say that I love mid day powder moguls. Like when there's still enough soft snow everywhere and the skiers haven't made the valleys 5 ft deep. I have a blast doing those on the yup. GF and I both seek them out in good conditions.


The problem is that 9 times out of 10 they are absolute mine fields as the valleys are pure ice as is most of the moguls. Virtually impossible to set an edge and impossible to control.


----------



## ridethecliche (Feb 27, 2019)

Oldman said:


> The problem is that 9 times out of 10 they are absolute mine fields as the valleys are pure ice as is most of the moguls. Virtually impossible to set an edge and impossible to control.


I understand that. That's why I said mid-day. If there's a decent base and decent snow, a couple of hours in they'll be doable. If it's the afternoon, then forget it. All the valleys are iced over like you said!


----------



## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

Oldman said:


> The problem is that 9 times out of 10 they are absolute mine fields as the valleys are pure ice as is most of the moguls. Virtually impossible to set an edge and impossible to control.


Also if there's some 'mid pow day' moguls, there's bound to be mid-pow day... actual pow to be had. And that's FAR more fun than moguls. Hell, I still find day-after-pow-day runs and have a way better time than running a mogul field.

Anyways... everyone can/should do whatever they like. Just saying that the reason there's not much proper advice on this is because most snowboard people don't care about moguls.


----------



## Phedder (Sep 13, 2014)

F1EA said:


> Anyways... everyone can/should do whatever they like. Just saying that the reason there's not much proper advice on this is because most snowboard people don't care about moguls.


I like T-bars and moguls, but in my defence the first mountain I lived at didn't have chairlifts and I only rode with skiers... baptism by fire some would say?


----------



## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

Phedder said:


> I like T-bars and moguls, but in my defence the first mountain I lived at didn't have chairlifts and I only rode with skiers... baptism by fire some would say?


Hahahah yeah I guess you could say that. Same w riding icy conditions or whatever... if that's what you have, then make the best of it. Ice it is. 

I have a buddy who likes "bumps". But he also got hardboots for some reason, even though he's under 50 y/o. Go figure.

Tbars are fine. I kinda like them. They're less comfy than a chair, but move quicker and you're more engaged on the way up....


----------



## Snowdaddy (Feb 2, 2018)




----------



## drblast (Feb 28, 2017)

Snowdaddy said:


>


My vision isn't as good as it used to be because those guys look like they're on skis to me.


----------



## WigMar (Mar 17, 2019)

+1 on avoidance tactics. I learned how to ride trees so I wouldn't have to deal with moguls as often. If you actually want to ride steep bumps, more power to you. I'd tell those skiers to take a hike.


----------



## Snowdaddy (Feb 2, 2018)

drblast said:


> My vision isn't as good as it used to be because those guys look like they're on skis to me.


Splitboards...


----------



## lifeisgold (Mar 1, 2020)

Surprised no one linked this yet. Sigh* it falls to me.
You can ride like Mark Soller...





Not that it is that crazy, there is the recent video of Canide sort of skipping over whole mogul field that seems to be something that can be done on snowboard... But of course this still would be near suicide on anything that steep. 

On a more serious note there really is not much in the way of video floating around about snowboard and moguls (bumps and planks? The name of your home movie?) I have been looking for years.

There is Sean he seam to ride like Xavier( ie banked slalom ) but he mixes in some jump turns which is cool and something I should try





Here is a popular clip of a hard booter doing what looks like almost all jump turns.





This guy thinks you should do mostly pivot turns but occasionally carve turns






He thinks getting low is the key (ps I took a lesson once, we spent a lot of the lesson on moguls. The instructor much preferred staying more upright in the bumps as he felt that you needed that distance for your knees to travel and absorb the bumps)


----------



## lifeisgold (Mar 1, 2020)

There was a great clip of a guy caving his way through a pretty thick field that I can't seem to find. And I have a few other clips that I found less helpful I can link if you're interested.

In any case all these clips have in common is that the runs are not that steep... So not sure how much help it is.

Sidenote: I always thought the reason borders have a hard time is because
1.The width of the board means it can't fit between the bumps and takes a long time to get from one edge to the other

2. Snowboards have one edge and so have a longer/slower turn radius.

But I watched Mogul skiers and they don't get on edge and two skis with a little space between them seem to be as wide as some boards. These facts kind of puts a crimp in those theories. Though obviously those are still factors.

In any case there is another major differences between skis and boards that cause major hiccups when dealing with moguls. See I missed that we stand sideways on a board and skiers face down hill. Which means on every turn our weight is stacked over one edge or another. So for the board to swing side to side quickly it would swing our body like a doll whereas skiers can stay facing down hill while their feet twist quickly.

My point being that if you're trying to ride moguls it might be good idea to go very posi and narrow in stance. In fact looking at the hard boot guy these things seem to help.


----------



## F1EA (Oct 25, 2013)

lifeisgold said:


> My point being that if you're trying to ride moguls it might be good idea to go *very posi and narrow in stance*. In fact looking at the hard boot guy these things seem to help.


You gonna have a baaaaaad time...
Adding stance width will help manage the bumps and keeping the knees a LOT more flexible. Narrow ++ is very good on ultra smooth groomers...


----------



## lifeisgold (Mar 1, 2020)

F1EA said:


> You gonna have a baaaaaad time...
> Adding stance width will help manage the bumps and keeping the knees a LOT more flexible. Narrow ++ is very good on ultra smooth groomers...


That is what I thought but now I'm starting to think that if you want to ride between the moguls, like a skier, like the hard boot rider in the clip above you need to be able to have the board whip side to side without twisting your body. Like how we would imagine a monoskier riding


----------



## spaceknight (Apr 22, 2017)

I consider myself pretty good at doing moguls and I actually quite enjoy them as well. I like that they give a good workout and really challenge your board control. I ride them similar to how XV does them in a banked salom style, but I also mix in hop turns, switch turns and ride in between, around, and over top of moguls depending on the terrain as well. This guy does them pretty quickly, similar to how XV does em. 









平間和徳 @ラマ先生/スノーボード/カービングターン on Instagram: "コブは バンクtoバンクが 楽ちんで、スムーズよ😏 試してみてね☝️ @kawabaresort #ラマ先生 #ラマ塾 #ラマ #スノボ動画配りオネェ #新世界 #縦横無尽 #自由自在 #構えあって構えなし #物理の力 #理合 #身体の仕組み #精査が必要 #平間和徳 #風の時代 #身体を動かしているのは頭 #INFINITY #FUNxR #界王拳 #bonxmini #snowboarder #スノーボード #carvingturn #カービングターン #ちゃらトリ #kazunorihirama #ファシリテート #bonx_go #マインドフルネス #菅平高原スノーリゾート @smithopticsjp @matsumotowax_official @goprojp @kazunorihirama @smithopticsjp @applerind_online @corksupplyjpn @flux_japan @bonx_go @blackbriar_brand @boulsaurus_snosaurus @nippon_ski_development @ground_n_ace @bcstreamsnowboards @picture_ogc_japan @hascosnow TikTok 平間和徳 https://vt.tiktok.com/83wojn/ YouTube rama109 https://www.youtube.com/user/rama109 Twitter RD_RAMA https://mobile.twitter.com/rd_rama instagram 平間和徳 https://www.instagram.com/kazunorihirama"


平間和徳 @ラマ先生/スノーボード/カービングターン shared a post on Instagram: "コブは バンクtoバンクが 楽ちんで、スムーズよ😏 試してみてね☝️ @kawabaresort #ラマ先生 #ラマ塾 #ラマ #スノボ動画配りオネェ #新世界 #縦横無尽 #自由自在 #構えあって構えなし #物理の力 #理合 #身体の仕組み #精査が必要 #平間和徳 #風の時代 #身体を動かしているのは頭 #INFINITY #FUNxR #界王拳 #bonxmini #snowboarder #スノーボード #carvingturn...




www.instagram.com


----------



## Spid (Jan 4, 2022)

drblast said:


> So I'm trying to ride here in this bowl in the afternoons after it's tracked out:
> View attachment 157660
> 
> 
> ...



Do flat spins in both directions in easy blue moguls. This will develop the flexion/extension (bending and straightening knees and ankles), independent leg action, and board twist skills needed for smooth riding in moguls that would be called mount something in the Midwest.


----------

