# To split or not to split...?



## linvillegorge

Absolutely rent the split. Well worth it. As far as the ride, there's not a huge difference. A little less torsional rigidity and that's about it.


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## wrathfuldeity

with your boot size, pay attention to the waist width. I recommend trying out a b-pro split or a 156 billy goat split


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## killclimbz

No question you should get the split. Wrath your recommendation is probably good, but I think Jones are the boards being offered to the OP. Get the Solution, it's the same as the Flagship. So you'll know how it rides. Try to rent split bindings too. Spark or Karakorum set up is preferred. Also make sure you have collapsible 3 section poles with some sort of flick lock system. Twist locks suck and they jam frequently. You don't need to be dealing with that. 

As far as the ride goes. I don't really notice a difference at all torsional wise. Mostly because you are putting a huge metal plate across the board negating a lot of that flex because of the split. The biggest difference is weight. The split will weight a couple of pounds more than your Flagship.

In terms of effort put out, you are going to put a ton out. You'll have to use a lot less with a split than carrying a board on your back and snowshoes. Not to mention if it's windy a board on your back is like a giant sail. No fun at all unless you are out sailing....


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## tigre

Do it! You'll get a chance to try out splitboarding on basically the same board you're digging right now. Great opportunity to learn what it's all about. It'll be so much better than carrying your board, and then carrying your snowshoes/approach skis on the way down.


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## neni

wrathfuldeity said:


> with your boot size, pay attention to the waist width.


Checked it with google, it's a 6.5 in mens and a 8.5 in womans shoe size (the size does depend on sex...huhn...?) :icon_scratch: Anyway, it's an European 39.


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## poutanen

The other thing about backcountry riding is you'll be riding almost all untracked snow, no? So the board itself is far less critical than riding over choppy resort crap. I'm willing to bet almost any board feels great riding down a fresh line the entire way!

I really gotta join a split group! :yahoo:


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## wrathfuldeity

neni said:


> Checked it with google, it's a 6.5 in mens and a 8.5 in womans shoe size (the size does depend on sex...huhn...?) :icon_scratch: Anyway, it's an European 39.


I have size men's 7 or 8 in womens...waist width of 25 cm or less is ideal for me for good edge to edge response. Figure if ur going to rent...try something different...I see lots of women on split b-pros and met a couple on billygoats


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## ShredLife

wrathfuldeity said:


> I have size men's 7 or 8 in womens...waist width of 25 cm or less is ideal for me for good edge to edge response. Figure if ur going to rent...try something different...I see lots of women on split b-pros and met a couple on billygoats


snowolf has women's feet too, and also rides a billygoat split from time to time...jus sayin'


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## neni

> poutanen;749681]The other thing about backcountry riding is you'll be riding almost all untracked snow, no?


Sure, that's what you want. But... I don't know how it is at your mountains but here madame nature can be very nasty... we have a lot of stong winds that blow away the fresh snow from exposed ridges. Thus sometimes you have to negotiate frozen snow fields to get to the fun run 

Hahaha... they only have the Solution in 168w... bit big for me :laugh:
Went to the local shop today. They have one single split for rent: K2 Panoramic 161 (with Spark). Other splits would have to be sent by post (for 150$ a day). I guess I go for the K2 then...


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## neni

Phoned to all snowboard/ski/mountain equipment in my city to find a split for my husband (splits are not yet very popular here :dunno: ). But was successful in the next city; there's a shop specialized on splits who even offers to reimburse the rental if one desires to buy a board later (very likely in my case, I really got obsessed by deep snow ) 

They have a *Hovercraft 156 *for me and a *Solution 164W *for him, both with Spark. I'm a bit disapointed that there's no Solution suitable for me, but they said that they will increase the number of test splits for next year. (Wrath: I tried, but a billy-goat is nowhere to find) 

Cause of the continuous cold weather we have about 20-40cm powder up at 2400m, low avy danger and blue sky is announced for the rest of the week :yahoo: 

One last question: For the ascent I wear fleece gloves but for riding I wear mittens (womans constant companion: forever cold hands). Is there a disadvantage to wear mittens if you have to handle a split? Should I rather take gloves?


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## wrathfuldeity

neni said:


> Phoned to all snowboard/ski/mountain equipment in my city to find a split for my husband (splits are not yet very popular here :dunno: ). But was successful in the next city; there's a shop specialized on splits who even offers to reimburse the rental if one desires to buy a board later (very likely in my case, I really got obsessed by deep snow )
> 
> They have a *Hovercraft 156 *for me and a *Solution 164W *for him, both with Spark. I'm a bit disapointed that there's no Solution suitable for me, but they said that they will increase the number of test splits for next year. (Wrath: I tried, but a billy-goat is nowhere to find)
> 
> Cause of the continuous cold weather we have about 20-40cm powder up at 2400m, low avy danger and blue sky is announced for the rest of the week :yahoo:
> 
> One last question: For the ascent I wear fleece gloves but for riding I wear mittens (womans constant companion: forever cold hands). Is there a disadvantage to wear mittens if you have to handle a split? Should I rather take gloves?


I say 2 or 3 pairs of gloves/mitts....lighter for skinning up, warmer for ride down and an extra pair for dry/warmth or to get your hands warmed fast after the transition to/from split mode.


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## killclimbz

I generally just use gloves. I can change over my split (with Sparks) without removing my gloves. If your hands get really cold, you may want to try a mid weight pair of gloves for the hike up and switch out to your mittens for the down ride, if that is what you like. Regardless of how you do it, I would definitely have a back up pair of gloves or mitts in your pack. It can save your day. I would also recommend having an extra pair of goggles. Those are two items that if they go sour on your can really make your day miserable. Having spares can help keep your day pleasant.


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## tigre

I can do the transition to board mode with shell mitts on over my liners (don't know if I could do it with poofier mittens), but it's a little bit of a hassle. I'm going to get some thinner softshell gloves to wear as liners when I'm splitting, so I can use those for the transition and have some dexterity without getting my hands all wet, and then put the shells over them on the way down.


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## ShredLife

something like this might work for you too:


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## killclimbz

I have a pair of those Loki Mitts. They are pretty well made and are certainly warm. You still got to expose your fingers though. I have only used them a handful of times on super cold days. I am a glove guy and I usually don't get all that cold. Not a bad option for those who get cold hands. Though I think you would get the same performance out of a trigger mitt instead.


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## neni

Those LOKI mitts look pretty interesting. What a pity they don't have a retailer in Switzerland... would be a good option for me. I take off my mitts countless times a day to release/tighten the BOAs (it's a spleen of my to tighten the boots as hard as I can for bombing a run and have to release them immediately at the end to let the blood flow again :blink Hope, I'll find something similar available here. Thanks for the tip!

Ok, an extra pair of goggles will be added to the packing list. Never thought about it but you're right, to don't have them if needed could ruin a day.

I think, I'll go for the layer principle as tigre and take my thinner goretex gloves with the windbreaker fleece gloves as first option and have the thick mitts as backup. AND I'll exercise the transition at home WITH gloves. Don't want to disturbe the group just 'cause I don't know how/manage to do it.

I'm so excited and curious! It's 4 years since the last tour (bad neck injury, it's the first season ridind doesn't hurt anymore)


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## tigre

neni said:


> Those LOKI mitts look pretty interesting. What a pity they don't have a retailer in Switzerland... would be a good option for me. I take off my mitts countless times a day to release/tighten the BOAs (it's a spleen of my to tighten the boots as hard as I can for bombing a run and have to release them immediately at the end to let the blood flow again :blink Hope, I'll find something similar available here. Thanks for the tip!


Burton Hi-Fives and Swany Toasters are both made with zippers that run down your first finger, so you can get your fingers out without taking the whole mitten off. I've looked into them for photography. There's also a company out of Japan called Axes Quin that has an even better looking design (longer gauntlets, mostly), but I'd have to pull some strings to get them. Don't know if they'd be easier to come by in Europe or not.


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## neni

tigre said:


> Burton Hi-Fives and Swany Toasters are both made with zippers that run down your first finger, so you can get your fingers out without taking the whole mitten off. I've looked into them for photography. There's also a company out of Japan called Axes Quin that has an even better looking design (longer gauntlets, mostly), but I'd have to pull some strings to get them. Don't know if they'd be easier to come by in Europe or not.


Didnt find them in the local shops neither, will try to order online. But found those windbreakers for the ascent/transition. The thumb can be exposed too, might come handy. Roeckl Sports |*Multisport / Outdoor*-*Multisport / Outdoor*-*Produkte

Well, the easy beginner tour was canceld  we'll now join the 'bigger' tour tomorrow. God, now I'm very glad, I won't have to carry the Flagship the 1000m vertical ascent. Didnt get younger since the last tour


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## neni

wrathfuldeity said:


> with your boot size, pay attention to the waist width. I recommend trying out a b-pro split or a 156 billy goat split


Hahaha... this was funny... was in the new shop to fetch the splits. Looked through the boards they had there... and they had a GNU billy goat. 
Me (to the young shop assistant): " oh, this board was recommendet to me. Will it also be in stock at your upcoming testweekend? I'd like to try it..."
He (eyes wide): "OH NO! I would never give this board to a woman. This is far to stiff for you! Woman shouldn't ride mens boards!"


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## neni

Thanks to all convincing us to rent the splits! It was so easy to ascent with them, only the light backpack, no "sail" at the back. Could have hiked on and on and on :yahoo:

We'll defenitely join the split club and will buy some for next season. Haha, that opens a new field of need for recommendations  what splits do you ride? Found the Hovy nice, very slashy, edge hold was great on ice, but all in all it was less agressive than the Flagship, bit soft on the frozen snow fields...


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## wrathfuldeity

:thumbsup: nice and nice turns...go back and tell the shop ur going to demo that billy


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## neni

Its so easy to make me insecure... the conversation went on:
Me: "well... I ride a Flagship and I think I'm riding it pretty well"
He: "ugh... you'd be better on a womans board. Don't you have tired legs in the evening?" (Me getting puzzled if we talk of the same sport  )
Then I gave him my stands for the split (+27/+12). He: "these are weird stances. You should ride duck stances, thats better if you want to ride switch" (me wondering why on earth I should want to ride switch with my pow board)

So I left the shop thinking hes talking nonsense but nevertheless it kept me asking myself if I do everything wrong. Well, not completely wrong, I think I perform well, but maybe I could be better with less stiff gear and other stances...? But just thinking of minus stance on the hind leg makes me wonder how one can ride higher speeds like that? The hind knee and hip will get twisted if you want to straight line, not? And wouldn't I loose stability in high speed with a less stiff board? I ride a stiff board cause I always did so. Tried some womans boards but was shocked how chattery they got at higher speeds. Maybe I tried the wrong ones...?
Arrrgh... 



wrathfuldeity said:


> :thumbsup: nice and nice turns...go back and tell the shop ur going to demo that billy


I remember from other posts that your daughter rides a billy. Does she ride it as a split too? If yes, which size?



Snowolf said:


> Gnu Billy Goat:
> My favorite split so far with C2BTX and light magnetraction. It is a little on the heavy side but like its standard coutrrpart, is agile and fast. Yes, it is longitudinally stiff but torsionally medium flex and quick edge to edge. Do t let a shop kid steer you away from it. I have small size 8.5 feet and can handle this board fine.


Thanks for this overview! I'll instst to get the test BG 

Comparing the Flagship 158 and the Hovy 156 I had the impression, that the Hovy was harder to turn (although this contradicts everything I've read so far). If I initiate a turn, the Flagship immediately responds while the Hovy took its time (I soon adjusted riding and did the turns rather by lift-change the tail with the hind leg). Does that come from its wider waist? 



Snowolf said:


> Later I will be able to report on the new Neversummer Prospector. It will be put through its paces in the spring and summer snow of the Washington Cascades!


They sell NS (and K2) here too, I'm very curious to hear of your impressions. In spring we'll spend some time in Zermatt (higher mountains) so I still have some opportunities to test


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## killclimbz

neni, ride what you are comfortable with. I think you have one of those guys who believe what works great for them will work great for everyone. I am sure he is well meaning and that is a hard habit to break. I've been guilty of it. The interface systems are limited on angles, but what you have posted here should be possible with the Voile interface. Maybe not so much with Karakorum. This is your sport not his. If you want to play with the angles, by all means do it, but ride it how you like.

For the record I do ride duck. Pretty mellow stance. +-15. I don't do much switch, but the real advantage for me is being able to squat down very low with the duck stance. I ride very tight trees from time to time in Colorado and getting under low branches is just a reality. Forward angle stances block that.

As far as split go. Wolfie ran down most of them

The Never Summer Summit is another great split. Definitely a pow board with big mountain chops. 

Venture makes great splits and their profile is the best for pure float. A little more sluggish when compare to the decks with rocker between the feet. They are much better for skinning steeps though. Lots of traction and the tips dive up which is great when breaking trail.

I've been demoing the Arbor Abacus split as of late. It's a very light board. Lighter than anything mentioned before. Rides great too. A little soft for me on the back end. I've washed it out a few times, but I am also a huge dude. Last few outings it hasn't been a problem for me either. I've got it figured out now. Worth looking at if that split is available in your area. 

I haven't ridden it, but Burton's split using the channel system has some advantages too. If you have Spark Blaze bindings, Burton has a spacer for the pucks that allows you to adjust your angles with the bindings on. Pretty slick and makes for quick adjustments to your exact angles. I am generally not a fan of Big B, but I can't say they didn't put some thought into their splits. Simple stuff really, but it makes a difference.


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## wernersl

Id still like to see someone split a NS Raptor. Not willing to do it to mine yet. hmmm...Maybe time to find someones beatup raptor and experiment.........


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## neni

killclimbz said:


> The interface systems are limited on angles, but what you have posted here should be possible with the Voile interface. Maybe not so much with Karakorum.
> For the record I do ride duck. Pretty mellow stance. +-15. I don't do much switch, but the real advantage for me is being able to squat down very low with the duck stance. I ride very tight trees from time to time in Colorado and getting under low branches is just a reality. Forward angle stances block that.


Oh, good to know 'cause I was intending to get the Karakorum, since it seems to be more stable. I'll check where the limits of the angles are and will get used to those angles. Maybe it's time anyway to play around with the angles bit by bit and develop new muscle memory. I'll look out for the Arbor too. 

Brought back the splits, the owner of the shop was there today. Chatted a bit, he asked how I liked the system and the Hovy, how I normaly ride and with whom and he then fetched brochures to show me what splits out of his next years stock he'd think to be most suitable for me: the mens Solution (his favorite one) and (ta-ta-taaaa) the Billy Goat!  
As I asked him why his younger collegue was reluctant whith this board he told me that they had some incidences with girls overestimating their abilities, wanting this board cause "it looks cool" and were not able to enjoy it cause all they actually wanted is to calmly cruise down blues.
Well, I'll get the BG at the big testweekend, the NS and K2 ones will also be around. Getting very curious now


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## killclimbz

Karakorum is very limited on their stance angles. It also has to be cleaned quite a bit from snow build up. The beauty of the voile pucks is that they are self cleaning. Using the Voile pucks with the new Spark Telsa system seems to be a pretty ideal set up. Self cleaning and a pinless binding system. Very slick. The Telsa system should be available in the fall.


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## neni

killclimbz said:


> Karakorum is very limited on their stance angles. It also has to be cleaned quite a bit from snow build up. The beauty of the voile pucks is that they are self cleaning. Using the Voile pucks with the new Spark Telsa system seems to be a pretty ideal set up. Self cleaning and a pinless binding system. Very slick. The Telsa system should be available in the fall.


Again, thanks a lot! The system looks very nice. splitboard magazine – Spark R&D ISPO 2013 No fiddling around with the pin and what I like a lot are the two integrated heel ascent angle things (however they are called  ). If they are still 1/3rd the price of the Karakorum, they become an option. Was tending to the Karakorum cause they looked as if they supply more torsional stability with their flat massive iron plate on the binding and the additional hook connecting the bases of both splits. The Voile plucks being plastik... dont they get worn-out easily? Is that a wrong impression?


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## killclimbz

I have yet to break any pucks and I've been splitting since 2001. All that said, I have a friend who really likes to huck his meat and he has broken a few pucks. The Spark Bindings seem to hold up pretty well. Guys have also been busting the Karakorum bindings. There is a pic here of the issue. 

My oldest set of pucks still work. though they may be a little loose I haven't really noticed. Everything wears though. I have Karakorum K clips and they are not nearly as tight as they were. Happens with use for everything . 

From what I've seen, the new Spark System is going to be $100-$200 USD less than the Karakorum system. The Riser system on the Spark Magneto looks much more supportive for climbing which I like. The self cleaning and simplicity of it is the big plus for me. Yes the Karakorum system looks way more neato but in use, simple is where it is at.

I will say, both systems have their positives and negatives. I am probably sounding more down on Karakorum than I should be. They do make a nice reliable product over all. If it is what you like, I don't think you'll be disappointed in it.


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## j1nftw1n

I ride a 2013 non split Billy Goat and I absolutely love the board, cant wait to see what you have to say about the split Goat. 

For backcountry POW boards would it be a better idea to go for a wide board for better float as compared to a normal width board?


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## neni

killclimbz said:


> From what I've seen, the new Spark System is going to be $100-$200 USD less than the Karakorum system. The Riser system on the Spark Magneto looks much more supportive for climbing which I like. The self cleaning and simplicity of it is the big plus for me. Yes the Karakorum system looks way more neato but in use, simple is where it is at.
> 
> I will say, both systems have their positives and negatives. I am probably sounding more down on Karakorum than I should be. They do make a nice reliable product over all. If it is what you like, I don't think you'll be disappointed in it.


I'm totally open to both systems. I tended to the Karakorum, mainly 'cause the transition looked easyer (in the shop, with no ice/snow attached to the board). But you're right, in snow the picture could be different. Yes... the simpler, the better. 
I was a bit shocked to hear what a complete setup will cost (around 2300$ was the offer for Solution/Karakorum) thus I don't say no to a cheeper binding equally suitable


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## wrathfuldeity

neni,
I ride the split goat and my daughter rode for 7 years but 3 years ago switch to mainly skiing has big fatty twin AT setup ...but skis like a snowboarder 

The other day saw a gal with a solid 159 goat (I ride a 159 and at 180 pounds), she was 5' 6" maybe 140-150 pounds (i didn't ask) and grew up on the hill but later saw her riding soom off piste double black area and it seemed that it was getting away from her abit. Anyway a solid rider but perhaps a 156 would have been a better size for her.


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## wrathfuldeity

neni said:


> I'm totally open to both systems. I tended to the Karakorum, mainly 'cause the transition looked easyer (in the shop, with no ice/snow attached to the board). But you're right, in snow the picture could be different. Yes... the simpler, the better.
> I was a bit shocked to hear what a complete setup will cost (around 2300$ was the offer for Solution/Karakorum) thus I don't say no to a cheeper binding equally suitable


When I was researching a split set up, karakorum is from PNW and there are fans...but most all of the locals recommended to do the sparks...more simple = less parts to break and easier repair. 

And there is also triad bindings looks to be another possible option
Triad Future | Splitboarding Gear Done Right

and there is also a hard boot dynafit system that looks pretty nice...perhaps since you a forward stance gal


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## killclimbz

The Hard boot system is not Dynafit specific, but John Keffler made it with the Dynafit system in mind. He did a great job with his design for sure. If you want to go hard boot, his system is the way to go.


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## neni

wrathfuldeity said:


> and there is also a hard boot dynafit system that looks pretty nice...perhaps since you a forward stance gal


For heavens sake, don't add more options to choose from  already now it's hard enough to decide  Consider the facts that I ride foreward oriented and fasten the boots very tight on rough runs, your hard boot suggestion makes sense. But I have a difficult right foot and for the first time in 10 years riding I found a (pretty stiff) soft boot that fits good enough that I can ride an entire day almost without pain. This boot also worked very well on the 4hrs split hike, so I really don't want to get an other one. Never change a running system...

Haha, you hit a nerve by mentioning the board length... this will be the hardest thing to decide, loops right back to my first "girl on Flagship 158 - good idea" thread  In a perfect world I could try both sizes of the BG split (and in pow), but there will only be one size of the solid deck AND on groomers... and 300 guys in the line all wanting to try exactly this board. Uhm... not sure if I'll go to this testweekend since I heard that they won't have any splits, just the solid ones - not sure if it makes sense at all...


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## wrathfuldeity

neni said:


> Haha, you hit a nerve by mentioning the board length... this will be the hardest thing to decide, loops right back to my first "girl on Flagship 158 - good idea" thread  In a perfect world I could try both sizes of the BG split (and in pow), but there will only be one size of the solid deck AND on groomers... and 300 guys in the line all wanting to try exactly this board. Uhm... not sure if I'll go to this testweekend since I heard that they won't have any splits, just the solid ones - not sure if it makes sense at all...


I have 3 main boards...a groomer board 155 fs camber twin (but looking to replace with a 154.5 gnu riders choice), the billy goat 159 split and a deep pow board 164 charlie slasher. So the thought for a split is to go 5-6 cm longer than your groomer/inbounds board. And for me in the PNW if its a really deep day I'll stay inbounds and ride the charlie slasher because the goods are easy to get and likely the avy danger would be too risky to go out of bounds anyway. And I plan on doing the split early season, corn season/after the ski area closes and maybe into early summer...thus I don't need anything more than 159 split lenght most of the time.


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## neni

killclimbz said:


> The interface systems are limited on angles, but what you have posted here should be possible with the Voile interface. Maybe not so much with Karakorum. This is your sport not his. If you want to play with the angles, by all means do it, but ride it how you like.
> 
> For the record I do ride duck. Pretty mellow stance. +-15. I don't do much switch, but the real advantage for me is being able to squat down very low with the duck stance. I ride very tight trees from time to time in Colorado and getting under low branches is just a reality. Forward angle stances block that.


You have a pretty strong influence...  you made me change my angles for the first time in many many years, actually the first time below +15 at all (my guys winced as I adjusted the bindings).

Rode with +15/0 today and was comfortable with it. Spring has entered very fast, it was raining and only slush to ride in lower parts of the resort. Typical surf and straight line day. Anyhow I was pretty astonished, how little the (in my opinion drastic) change of angles affected my riding. Seems that they play a less important role than I thought. Will change to minus degrees tomorrow and try to ride switch  haha, the guys will have a big fun day


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