# JAPAN - avi backpack, Jetforce vs ABS. jETFORCE REVIEWS?



## Decade190 (Feb 26, 2012)

Hey guys.Couple of tips needed. Japan is on for 2018:grin: 

So issue/question - i'm going to get myself an avi bag. Obviously the cheapest is the canisters/abs.I have a good deal on a used ABS/ORTOVOX M.A.S.S. bag...However is the ABS canister safe to fly??? if its taken off me i'm screwed as doesn't look like they sell them in Japan.
Rather do ABS as cheaper by far and also the lighter weight is very appealing for ride quality. 

However i may need to shell out for the new electric jet force bags which avoids the canister issue BUT they're way heavier and costlier. Any advice/insight? I'm also not confident packing an ABS back up but jet force looks easy. I would definitely test fire the ABS and get a new canister as need to be sure i can pack and that it works.

And anyone with either a pieps jet force 10/24 or a Black diamond 10 or 28 jet force* - is the weight a hindrance? 

Thanks

* Probably avoiding black diamond halo/pilot as no snowboard carry straps! dunno if there's a solution.


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## francium (Jan 12, 2013)

You do get avalanches in Japan but unless you're really going off the beaten track most people just take standard Avi equipment.


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## Decade190 (Feb 26, 2012)

francium said:


> You do get avalanches in Japan but unless you're really going off the beaten track most people just take standard Avi equipment.


A lot of people have said that to me... but on googling there have been quite a number of AVI deaths in Japan, and other injuries such as broken femurs on mount yotei.

So not many people use avi packs out there still?


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## hugoslair (Apr 21, 2017)

Like in all things, my suggestion is that preparation is the key.
I have ridden Japan in 2016 and 2017 deep backcountry.
Seen some cracks, but no avi. 
If a place is closed, you don't go there. Simple.
We carry standard gear, and acknowledge 38degree pitch as a risk.
The japanese are super safe, and close off risky areas.
Outside of this you need to know what you are looking at.

Ultimately it depends on what you want to do, your level of knowledge, if you are using guides etc, etc...
My thoughts are that you are best off identifying avoiding avalanche zones, and avoiding them.
There is plenty of great deep pow to ride without generating risk.
If you don't know how to read the mountain, perhaps start there, rather than being gear focused.

No disrespect though. 
Just an opinion from someone who has been through what you are thinking, and found a better option.


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## Decade190 (Feb 26, 2012)

Whilst i appreciate what you are saying and that you have much more experience on Japan than myself currently... I am not saying i will ride wherever i want so long as i have ABS. I am not saying I will buy all the gear and have no knowledge.

And i'm sorry but your just as naive as a gear hoarder if you think you can read the mountain well enough to avoid avalanches completely in deep off-piste conditions. I've seen/attended multiple slides on pitches far under 38degrees. Or slides from exposure from steeper terrain way off the slope where the victims were hit.

I worked as an avalanche rescue medic last year in Europe. I had ABS supplied with work hence never needed to buy one or transport one out there. 

My feelings are more that i should mitigate risks as much as possible. 

I will be riding with guides regularly, I'm going out with a european guide who will be buying an ABS out there. We'll attempt to hike and ride mount yotei, weather dependent and spend 90% of time backcountry/out of gates.

Does no-one use ABS out there really?



hugoslair said:


> Like in all things, my suggestion is that preparation is the key.
> I have ridden Japan in 2016 and 2017 deep backcountry.
> Seen some cracks, but no avi.
> If a place is closed, you don't go there. Simple.
> ...


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## hugoslair (Apr 21, 2017)

Again friend. No disrespect.
With regard to ABS, from my experience, the only people i have seen with ABS have been Europeans.
Never a Japanese person.

I respect your experience, and if it tells you ABS will be more helpful, then you should follow whatever makes you comfortable.
Was merely providing my opinion based on my experience.

I will respectfully disagree that carrying extra gear mitigates risks.
I think all of the AVI courses provided around the world would also disagree...

Not here to flame though. 
Best of luck with whatever you do.


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## Decade190 (Feb 26, 2012)

hugoslair said:


> Again friend. No disrespect.
> With regard to ABS, from my experience, the only people i have seen with ABS have been Europeans.
> Never a Japanese person.
> 
> ...


You don't think having gear with you helps to mitigate the risks/outcome? That is madness!

And by mitigate obviously i mean reduce the risk of injury/death - not cancel out. Because the risk is always there.

Thanks, no disrespect to yourself either. just feel sometime if you ask even the smallest of questions about avi gear you get jumped on with the "educate yourself" lines... on the presumption that OP hasn't.

So you won't know if ABS is flyable then?


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## hugoslair (Apr 21, 2017)

I think I am being semantic in my interpretation.
Yes, Airbags can possibly mitigate the outcomes of an avalanche, but conversely it does nothing towards reducing your exposure to them.
And this is likely the point others are "jumping" upon, because they feel avoidance is a better option.

Airbags are definitely flyable, as evidenced by the Europeans i have seen bringing them over.
But i suspect it is largely airline dependent.

Is it possible to talk to your guides before heading over for some local knowledge?
My previous guides discussed Airbags with head protection as the major consideration rather than anything else, as most people die from trauma in an avalanche, not suffocation.
Apologies if this is outside the scope of your initial question.


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## Decade190 (Feb 26, 2012)

hugoslair said:


> I think I am being semantic in my interpretation.
> Yes, Airbags can possibly mitigate the outcomes of an avalanche, but conversely it does nothing towards reducing your exposure to them.
> And this is likely the point others are "jumping" upon, because they feel avoidance is a better option.
> 
> ...


Okay, yeah guess we were talking about different interpretations...

However i have to correct you, most people in an avalanche do not die from trauma. That is absolutely not true. In Europe less than 10% of deaths in avalanches are related to trauma. Less than that in USA i think. not sure which avi course taught you that


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## SGboarder (Jun 24, 2012)

hugoslair said:


> With regard to ABS, from my experience, the only people i have seen with ABS have been Europeans.
> Never a Japanese person.


You must not have been spending much time in the backcountry or not been looking very closely. TONS of Japanese use avi airbags.


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## killclimbz (Aug 10, 2007)

Not sure on the airbag use in Japan.

I am also not sure of the statement that the Jetforce is way heavier. I have a Mammut RAS system 34L pack and and Pieps Jet Force 34L Pack. The weight difference is negligible at worst. I wouldn't even worry about it. The main complaint I have with the Jetforce is that the system takes up way more storage space than it should. I would have ordered the 45L pack if I had of known. That is me though. Obviously you don't want as large of a pack. I would still consider what you want to carry and available space though. So if you can look at them, make sure you have the storage you want or look at the next size up. The pack itself carries great. Excellent suspension system. 

The airbag itself is large, very large. The fan continually tops off the airbag if deployed for five minutes and then deflates something like 30 or 50% of the volume to create an air pocket in case of a full burial. Supposedly it will still fill even with a 3cm tear. I obviously haven't tested that...

As far as the system goes. The Jetforce is just easier. You can deploy it and repack it in minutes. You can also deploy it multiple times. I know flying from Europe, it is not as restrictive with the canisters. If you end up in the United States, you can't fly with a canister. Even if it is empty. Flying with your Jetforce? No problem. I went through security and they didn't even blink at the airbag as it went through the X-ray.

The charge also lasts a very long time and you can still effectively deploy it when it is down to one bar. When I got my pack, it had almost now charge and I deployed it three times before putting it on the charger. Over the season I charged it three times after the initial charge. Once in January for a hut trip. Then after I got back from the hut trip, since the crew there wanted to play with the bag, we deployed it a few times, and then I charged it in March. That was it. 

Is the bag perfect? No, but it certainly works. It is my go to airbag right now. My $0.02 would be to get a Jetforce for the ease of use.


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## Decade190 (Feb 26, 2012)

killclimbz said:


> Not sure on the airbag use in Japan.
> 
> I am also not sure of the statement that the Jetforce is way heavier. I have a Mammut RAS system 34L pack and and Pieps Jet Force 34L Pack. The weight difference is negligible at worst. I wouldn't even worry about it. The main complaint I have with the Jetforce is that the system takes up way more storage space than it should. I would have ordered the 45L pack if I had of known. That is me though. Obviously you don't want as large of a pack. I would still consider what you want to carry and available space though. So if you can look at them, make sure you have the storage you want or look at the next size up. The pack itself carries great. Excellent suspension system.
> 
> ...


Thanks! Really helpful. 

So you don't notice the weight difference? 

The jetforce is about 3.5kg/3500g. 
By comparison an average ABS of similar capacity comes in at 2.5kg. I could get one for under 2kg for half the price of the jetforce. 
I imagine you're mammut is about 1-1.5kg lighter than jetforce without gear. 

So it doesn't feel big and heavy/cumbersome?
Sounds like you're maybe used to carrying big bags around. 

I like to do a lot freestyle/high energy/spins/jumps even when in backcountry off piste. So big heavy bags feel like a hindrance an reduce enjoyment. 

Hoped the 24 litre pieps jetforve would be the answer if I can ignore the weight. 
Guess if it's well fitted and close to body it won't feel as bad. 

My old pack which was provided with work was a 20 litre ABS base unit which fit all the gear I'd need.


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## killclimbz (Aug 10, 2007)

I didn't really notice the weight difference at all. The pack suspension is pretty well built which makes a big difference too. My Jetforce carries better than any BCA pack I have demo'd. Even smaller packs in comparison. You really aren't talking about a huge amount of weight difference given a backcountry setting. If you must shave weight, I would look at what you carry in your pack for emergency supplies, water, etc, and see if you can save a little there. 

You are right about me carrying a heavier load. I tend to go on splitboard tours for most of the day. I am bringing what I need to stay out there and to help out should we end up in a pinch due to an injury, accident, equipment failure, that sort of thing. Not much spinny, flippy stuff going on for me anymore. I still like to drop rocks and cliffs when good spots for me to do it present themselves.


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## The Shogun (Sep 25, 2016)

I can't remember the brand but some of the canisters don't get sold over here.......I remember a few years back a big discussion on the now defunct Snow Japan forums where this was spelled out. Those forums are archived though so you could shoot over there and search to get the answer......unless SG Boarder remembers/ knows. It certainly won't hurt having it, that's for sure and if you are hitting Yotei then yeah proper gear is required.


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## Decade190 (Feb 26, 2012)

The Shogun said:


> I can't remember the brand but some of the canisters don't get sold over here.......I remember a few years back a big discussion on the now defunct Snow Japan forums where this was spelled out. Those forums are archived though so you could shoot over there and search to get the answer......unless SG Boarder remembers/ knows. It certainly won't hurt having it, that's for sure and if you are hitting Yotei then yeah proper gear is required.


Thanks, really helpful. 
I do feel I should bring one as most members of my group are and yotei does increase the risk of slides. Especially on the long hike/traverses up there. 

I've searched the forum and can't find the list of ones that are supplied in Japan. It's such a nightmare to work out! 

I know that ABS and BCA are probably available over there but I'd rather be able to get one of the lighter packs actually. 

Anyone know if they stock ARVA canisters there at all?
The ARVA REACTOR bag looks awesome and weighs half what other bags weigh!

Thanks


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## neni (Dec 24, 2012)

The Shogun said:


> I can't remember the brand but some of the canisters don't get sold over here.......I remember a few years back a big discussion on the now defunct Snow Japan forums where this was spelled out. Those forums are archived though so you could shoot over there and search to get the answer......unless SG Boarder remembers/ knows. It certainly won't hurt having it, that's for sure and if you are hitting Yotei then yeah proper gear is required.


Yeah... the Mammut canisters are not sold neither re-fillable over there.
I thus got a Pieps Jetforce for the Japan trip. Nice side effect is the less stressful airport security check with the Jetforce compared tl the canisters when travelling to US. And it's super easy to repack the inflated bag. It's but heavier, sure, but I don't care.


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## Decade190 (Feb 26, 2012)

neni said:


> The Shogun said:
> 
> 
> > I can't remember the brand but some of the canisters don't get sold over here.......I remember a few years back a big discussion on the now defunct Snow Japan forums where this was spelled out. Those forums are archived though so you could shoot over there and search to get the answer......unless SG Boarder remembers/ knows. It certainly won't hurt having it, that's for sure and if you are hitting Yotei then yeah proper gear is required.
> ...


Is it noticeably heavy to ride with? Prohibitive for freestyle etc?

Would be the solution for travel but weight majorly puts me off as feel it might put me off taking it out. Safest one would be the one I'm more likely to wear everyday as it won't worsen riding experience.


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## neni (Dec 24, 2012)

Decade190 said:


> Is it noticeably heavy to ride with? Prohibitive for freestyle etc?
> 
> Would be the solution for travel but weight majorly puts me off as feel it might put me off taking it out. Safest one would be the one I'm more likely to wear everyday as it won't worsen riding experience.


I've the pieps tour pro, big size as I use it for touring. The weight doesn't bother me, it's its big length which is bit hindering sometimes (I'm a 172cm girl). But they also have smaller sizes for freeride if you don't need the packing volume for skins n stuff.

Cannot say if the weight would bother you. I'm used to ride with heavy packs, stuffed with gear n water on tours, so a +/- empty pack on resort off piste days feels like nothing to me, no matter if jetforce or other bags.


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