# Snowsurf/Carving Board Suggestions



## jsil

I moved to the mountains two season ago and bought my first board (after learning to snowboard twenty years ago). I'm looking to get into something with full camber that can rail carves. I've watched a lot of the videos coming out of Japan with their style of riding and it really speaks to me. I enjoy ripping big carves and honestly enjoying playing all over the mountain without just straight-lining and bombing. There's a place for it, but I feel that the magic of the turn is what really gets me. My first step is experimenting with double positive binding angles (never tried them) and seeing how that effects my riding. I do ride a bit of switch, and prefer a board that can at least do it when the need arises (landing switch, easier route through the trees switching over, etc.) I think the perfect board for me would be something that you size down, can still handle speed, can really hold an edge, has a large sidecut that can rail turns, a bigger nose and maybe some early rise to still handle some pow, and can handle a bit of switch riding (buttering/screwing around too). I tend to enjoy shorter wider boards in my limited experience, but I'm not married to them. I don't have enough experience to be sure, but I do know I don't want some super hard charger that is only happy at 50mph. 

Stats:
5'9" - 155lbs - 9.5US Boot - Adv. Intermediate / Advanced

My current quiver is:

Never Summer Proto Type II - 154cm (Ripsaw Rocker Camber) - First modern board I rode since old-school camber boards twenty years ago. Seems pretty solid all around but doesn't really wow me. I think I would have preferred the 157cm. It gets a little squirrelly at very high speeds. Still solid and would recommend to someone progressing.

Capita Thunderstick - 155cm (flat w/very mild camber) - First experience with softer park type boards. Solid ride, but I'm not getting into park much as I thought I would. Falling on hard pack from up high sucks in your late 30s. If I'm good enough at some point to huck a method off of some natural features that's enough for me. That being said, I still take a ride through park once and a while w/friends.

Never Summer Swift - 157cm (Fusion Rocker Camber) - To be honest, I haven't loved this board as much as I'd thought I would. It isn't quite as maneuverable in the trees as I'd hoped (compared to shorter boards), and it's not great on the chopped up groomers on the way to good snow. It slays pow though so it would be a great option if you constantly find yourself in wide open pow fields, but my local resort (Park City) has a lot more pow in the trees and less open bowls than some spots. It does pretty well on groomers, but my board experience is fairly limited so hard to say. If this thing was better in chopped up resort snow I think I'd like it a lot more. I'm realizing that while having a quiver is nice, a dedicated resort pow board still needs to rip sloppy groomers and handle chopped up snow and chunder really well. I would sacrifice *some* float in deep pow for that.

Ride Warpig - 148cm (flat w/very mild camber) - I really enjoy this board, but I don't love it when the snow is hard. I think with some more camber this would be my board of choice, but the edge hold in sub-par conditions leaves something to be desired. It can definitely rip though and I do enjoy it. It definitely does better at speed and would be nice to find something that was still as much fun going 20mph as it is going 35mph+.


Below is my short list which I'm sure I'll add to with your responses, please feel free to comment on any and all if you have experience with them. What other boards would you guys recommend I look at? I know that a Gentemstick or Moss Snowstick would probably be ideal, but they are a LOT of money. Unless a swallow tail significantly adds to the ride, I'd prefer a non-swallow for better switch (if that's a thing).

- Elevated Surfcraft Goldfish / Redtail Hawk (love the idea of these, but a little pricey if I can't find one used)
- K2 Simple Pleasures
- Korua Shapes - Cafe Racer / Tranny Finder
- United Shaped Cadet
- YES Optimistic (may be too aggressive for what I'm looking for?)

Any and all advice would be great in regards to what I'm looking for.

BTW I have a pair of Union Stratas and a Ride Vice bindings if that matters and I'm trying to break in a pair of ThirtyTwo TM-3s in the off-season.

Thanks!


----------



## drblast

jsil said:


> I don't have enough experience to be sure, but I do know I don't want some super hard charger that is only happy at 50mph.


You might want to re-think that if your goal is carving and double-positive angles. The real carvers are those guys with the long skinny boards and hard boots, and they ride those boards for a reason.

Kind of like "there's no replacement for displacement" carving on a shorter board is do-able, but it's just a whole lot more fun on a longer board. If you haven't ridden a long camber board recently I'd at least demo one before buying. Longer boards can be faster, but one benefit of carving with them is that you can carve much harder at lower speeds than on a short board.

I'm only saying this since you have a quiver already and "long carving board" isn't represented there.


----------



## jsil

drblast said:


> You might want to re-think that if your goal is carving and double-positive angles. The real carvers are those guys with the long skinny boards and hard boots, and they ride those boards for a reason.
> 
> Kind of like "there's no replacement for displacement" carving on a shorter board is do-able, but it's just a whole lot more fun on a longer board. If you haven't ridden a long camber board recently I'd at least demo one before buying. Longer boards can be faster, but one benefit of carving with them is that you can carve much harder at lower speeds than on a short board.
> 
> I'm only saying this since you have a quiver already and "long carving board" isn't represented there.


While I want to carve, I don't want to only carve. I also appreciate the locked in yet still slashy style of the gentem/moss riders (in comparison to straight carving hard booters) as it looks like a lot of fun. I'm trying to find a balance between carving specific boarder-cross boards and something that I can use all over the mountain and still lay down better carves than on my current equipment. I guess you could call it the search for a "all-mountain carving board" rather than "all-mountain freestyle" that a lot of boards are labeled. That's why I specifically noted the riding styles of the Japanese riders rather than hard boot / boarder-cross guys. While I'd enjoy trying that out at some point, I feel like it may not be versatile enough for me. That being said, I definitely want to try one of those longer camber carving boards as the idea of slower speed deep carves is appealing.

I do appreciate your opinion though and am hoping to demo a lot of different carving boards at some point in this upcoming season.


----------



## jsil

drblast said:


> You might want to re-think that if your goal is carving and double-positive angles. The real carvers are those guys with the long skinny boards and hard boots, and they ride those boards for a reason.
> 
> Kind of like "there's no replacement for displacement" carving on a shorter board is do-able, but it's just a whole lot more fun on a longer board. If you haven't ridden a long camber board recently I'd at least demo one before buying. Longer boards can be faster, but one benefit of carving with them is that you can carve much harder at lower speeds than on a short board.
> 
> I'm only saying this since you have a quiver already and "long carving board" isn't represented there.


Also, I'm not opposed to selling off boards in my quiver that I don't ride or have been replaced with better options. All of my boards were used or off-season sales. I'm definitely not attached to them.


----------



## Snowdaddy

jsil said:


> I moved to the mountains two season ago and bought my first board (after learning to snowboard twenty years ago). I'm looking to get into something with full camber that can rail carves. I've watched a lot of the videos coming out of Japan with their style of riding and it really speaks to me. I enjoy ripping big carves and honestly enjoying playing all over the mountain without just straight-lining and bombing. There's a place for it, but I feel that the magic of the turn is what really gets me. My first step is experimenting with double positive binding angles (never tried them) and seeing how that effects my riding. I do ride a bit of switch, and prefer a board that can at least do it when the need arises (landing switch, easier route through the trees switching over, etc.) I think the perfect board for me would be something that you size down, can still handle speed, can really hold an edge, has a large sidecut that can rail turns, a bigger nose and maybe some early rise to still handle some pow, and can handle a bit of switch riding (buttering/screwing around too). I tend to enjoy shorter wider boards in my limited experience, but I'm not married to them. I don't have enough experience to be sure, but I do know I don't want some super hard charger that is only happy at 50mph.
> 
> Stats:
> 5'9" - 155lbs - 9.5US Boot - Adv. Intermediate / Advanced
> 
> - Elevated Surfcraft Goldfish / Redtail Hawk (love the idea of these, but a little pricey if I can't find one used)
> - K2 Simple Pleasures
> - Korua Shapes - Cafe Racer / Tranny Finder
> - United Shaped Cadet
> - YES Optimistic (may be too aggressive for what I'm looking for?)
> 
> Any and all advice would be great in regards to what I'm looking for.
> 
> BTW I have a pair of Union Stratas and a Ride Vice bindings if that matters and I'm trying to break in a pair of ThirtyTwo TM-3s in the off-season.
> 
> Thanks!


Even if I'm not being an advanced rider or an expert carver I couldn't agree more. The turning is where it's at  Both in powder and on piste.

When I think about snowsurfing I think about carving different sized carves depending on the terrain. For some I think it's surfing in the powder. Sowsurfing seems like such a general term. Maybe a fluid kind of riding where you ride the features and terrain 

What's a long sidecut in your opinion? I'm wondering since you're talking about shorter boards. Of the Korua boards, maybe you should have a look at the 159 Pencil? It has a moderate taper for a Korua. I ride the 164 Pencil Plus. It's a super cool board but hard to ride in choppy resort snow, the classic version could be better. I'm not sure that you have to pick the Cafe Racer or the Tranny Finder.

I've noticed that some of the Gentems and Moss have a much shorter radius towards the tail. The Korua is not like that, it has a longer sidecut towards the tail. Personally I love my Korua but wouldn't have minded a bit of less taper (like on the 159 Pencil). The Pencil also rides powder very nicely.

I looked up the Moss U5:

LENGTH: 1570
R. LENGTH: 864
EF. EDGE: 1060
SISDECUT: 9800/6900
NOSE/TAIL: 310/262/292
STANCE WIDTH: 540 (520-640)
SET BACK: -46.5

Thats's quite a variable sidecut... and a Korua should ride the exact opposite from this, it turns harder in the start of the turn when you ride on your front foot. What seems really cool about the Moss is the taper combined with a shorter sidecut in the tail.

Yes (like the Pick Your Line and Hybrid, Nitro and Maybe K2 have some boards that have a shorter sidecut towards the tail. I've never tried them, but maybe they ride a little like those Japanese boards (which I also never rode... haha).

Another board that comes to mind is the Nidecker Area. From what I understand it's also very good at absorbing resort chop and I'd really like to try one out.




drblast said:


> You might want to re-think that if your goal is carving and double-positive angles. The real carvers are those guys with the long skinny boards and hard boots, and they ride those boards for a reason.
> 
> Kind of like "there's no replacement for displacement" carving on a shorter board is do-able, but it's just a whole lot more fun on a longer board. If you haven't ridden a long camber board recently I'd at least demo one before buying. Longer boards can be faster, but one benefit of carving with them is that you can carve much harder at lower speeds than on a short board.
> 
> I'm only saying this since you have a quiver already and "long carving board" isn't represented there.


But... the "snowsurfing" isn't really riding like the eurocarving hardbooters.

Valid points though. If not only for the longer effective edge and the possibility for a longer sidecut. Without being an expert carver I think that short, stiff boards with a shorter sidecut isn't really the best idea for the "snowsurfing". You want the board to be able to bend into into the turning radius and a stiffer board makes that harder. So... a stiff board with a short radius sidecut is the hardest to turn right since it needs more force to bend into a much smaller radius.


----------



## Nivek

I have been through this and continue to search for western boards built to turn like Japanese ones. They turn different. It's hard to quantify.

What I have ridden that let's me get what I feel like is a similar feel to Moss, Gentem, Tj...

K2 Simple Pleaures, Rome Ravine, K2 Overboard, Burton Hometown Hero, Gnu Hyper Kyarve.

A couple I have not ridden but have some high hopes for are the Yes Y and Gnu NuZoid. The Y being a "lower end" Optimistic might make it just soft enough to add the right amount of playfulness. The Zoid would be on this list if Gnu still made it, so the NuZoid being a Zoid mid wide has me very excited.


----------



## Snowdaddy

Nivek said:


> I have been through this and continue to search for western boards built to turn like Japanese ones. They turn different. It's hard to quantify.
> 
> What I have ridden that let's me get what I feel like is a similar feel to Moss, Gentem, Tj...
> 
> K2 Simple Pleaures, Rome Ravine, K2 Overboard, Burton Hometown Hero, Gnu Hyper Kyarve.
> 
> A couple I have not ridden but have some high hopes for are the Yes Y and Gnu NuZoid. The Y being a "lower end" Optimistic might make it just soft enough to add the right amount of playfulness. The Zoid would be on this list if Gnu still made it, so the NuZoid being a Zoid mid wide has me very excited.


How is the flex pattern on the Japanese boards in general? I'm just speculating that maybe they have a softer tail in combination with the shorter sidecut there...


----------



## jsil

Snowdaddy said:


> When I think about snowsurfing I think about carving different sized carves depending on the terrain. For some I think it's surfing in the powder. Sowsurfing seems like such a general term. Maybe a fluid kind of riding where you ride the features and terrain
> 
> What's a long sidecut in your opinion?


Agree with the fluid kind of riding, that's what I'm after and that's what I'm realizing is my favorite style of riding. The reason I'm not as interested in hardboot carving is because it seems like that style of riding requires mostly freshly groomed runs and doesn't take into account much of the terrain which is not what I'm going for. 

Like you said, it really does depend on the flex of the board, length, effective edge, etc. Some boards with 7M sidecut radii carve better than 9M sidecut radii just due to flex (torsional and end to end). A lot of the boards Japanese "snowsurfer" style riders have are shorter and wider, but they still have long effective edges due to things like swallow tails or different tail shapes and are setback quite a bit (but often still centered on the sidecut). 




Snowdaddy said:


> But... the "snowsurfing" isn't really riding like the eurocarving hardbooters.


Agree with that. It's quite different. Also, I completely agree that no one is carving as hard as people on boardercross boards w/hard boots, but it's not the style I want to go for (but I'm happy to try it one day if I get the opportunity).


----------



## jsil

Nivek said:


> I have been through this and continue to search for western boards built to turn like Japanese ones. They turn different. It's hard to quantify.
> 
> What I have ridden that let's me get what I feel like is a similar feel to Moss, Gentem, Tj...
> 
> K2 Simple Pleaures, Rome Ravine, K2 Overboard, Burton Hometown Hero, Gnu Hyper Kyarve.
> 
> A couple I have not ridden but have some high hopes for are the Yes Y and Gnu NuZoid. The Y being a "lower end" Optimistic might make it just soft enough to add the right amount of playfulness. The Zoid would be on this list if Gnu still made it, so the NuZoid being a Zoid mid wide has me very excited.



Thanks for the feedback. This is exactly the kind of discussion I wanted to start. BTW, I read through all the posts on "snowsurfing" "japan riding" etc on the forum before making this one. I couldn't find the information I was looking for and I was sure there were some others in the same position as I am.

What of the Japanese style boards have you ridden to compare? Just curious as I haven't had the opportunity.

I was reading a bit about the K2 Overboard last night. I was just kind of put off by the 165 length for tight trees, but as every board is different, it may be OK depending on the torsional flex and sidecut. We tend to have a good amount of moguled up trees with tough conditions between pow dumps which is why I favored the shorter boards. May be an issue of technique though too.

The Yes Y looks interesting!


----------



## Kijima

I just wrote a huge reply and lost it before it posted lol. 
Just quickly. There will be 2 more Japanese made options before winter this season. 
The Taiyaki 138 and Taiyaki twin 138 that I will be making with my very own hands. :grin:


----------



## jsil

Kijima said:


> I just wrote a huge reply and lost it before it posted lol.
> Just quickly. There will be 2 more Japanese made options before winter this season.
> The Taiyaki 138 and Taiyaki twin 138 that I will be making with my very own hands. :grin:


Looking forward to hearing your thoughts and info on your boards.

Unless I'm on my phone, I tend to type long replies in word and copy and paste after losing a few big ones in the past.


----------



## Kijima

Shameless plug lol. For stoke more than trying go sell shit. Doing business in Japan is crazy expensive so thats why prices seem so high compared to other international markets. 
What that means is I dont expect to sell many outside Japan which frees me of the burden of needing to push my shit on here. 
Anything I say is purely based on stoke, I really really love this stuff . 

https://m.imgur.com/gallery/zfwlOlx
https://m.imgur.com/gallery/8yVVjbM


----------



## jsil

Kijima said:


> Shameless plug lol. For stoke more than trying go sell shit. Doing business in Japan is crazy expensive so thats why prices seem so high compared to other international markets.
> What that means is I dont expect to sell many outside Japan which frees me of the burden of needing to push my shit on here.
> Anything I say is purely based on stoke, I really really love this stuff .
> 
> https://m.imgur.com/gallery/zfwlOlx
> https://m.imgur.com/gallery/8yVVjbM


Amazing looking board and sick graphics. What are the specs of it?

Also, any production boards or boards that you can find more easily in the US that you would compare to it? I doubt I could afford one of your rides.


----------



## smellysell

Kijima said:


> Shameless plug lol. For stoke more than trying go sell shit. Doing business in Japan is crazy expensive so thats why prices seem so high compared to other international markets.
> What that means is I dont expect to sell many outside Japan which frees me of the burden of needing to push my shit on here.
> Anything I say is purely based on stoke, I really really love this stuff .
> 
> https://m.imgur.com/gallery/zfwlOlx
> https://m.imgur.com/gallery/8yVVjbM


So rad! Someday when I win the lottery... 

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


----------



## Kijima

jsil said:


> Amazing looking board and sick graphics. What are the specs of it?
> 
> Also, any production boards or boards that you can find more easily in the US that you would compare to it? I doubt I could afford one of your rides.


Come to Japan and walk in to my workshop with Japanese money and its easy lol. I can look after the boys if it happens like that :grin:

This is my prototype which I made as wide as possible with the base material that I had in stock which was 320mm. 
I wanted width at the inserts so I started to play around with short effective edge lengths. The shorter the edge the wider the board can be at the inserts for a given base material width so that was my drive to play with what people considered too short to carve. 
It turns out that 1m of edge is plenty of traction so the Taiyaki has a 100cm edge, 35cm nose and 3cm tail. Width is nose 32.5cm, waist 30.2cm, tail 32.2cm. 
Mine is 12m radius. I can do from 6m to 18m radius easily. 
Flex is fun bamboo. No planks here bro :grin: 

Taiyaki twin will be 100cm edge with 19cm nose and 19cm tail. 

Saying that, I have some custom color base and sidewall being made by crown this month, the base material is wider allowing boards as wide as 35cm.


----------



## Rip154

Are the inserts on the snackfish offset or is it just the photo angle?


----------



## Kijima

Rip154 said:


> Are the inserts on the snackfish offset or is it just the photo angle?


The inserts are offset and reduced width on that board. 
40x25 pattern. 
I did this to allow me a very wide range of binding movement. 
As I was learning to carve I would set up all to to toe, or all to the heel. It helped me a lot in soft snow conditions as this board was wide enough for my US10 boot but only in firm snow. 

Nice eye you have there Rip :grin:


----------



## dtbrown

Should check out Ryan Knapton on YouTube. He's an amazing carver with ridiculous butters and gives tips and board recommendations. I'd recommend to have two boards. One for carving and one for all mountain days. https://instagram.com/ryan_knapton?igshid=ynd1u12bqd72


----------



## Nivek

Knapton is good at one kind of carving. And I've seen him basically state that though can't carve deep on regular width boards. Which he used to ride a Custom X btw. He gets a kickback every time he makes a successful referral to Donek. Keep that in mind if you ever do ask for advice.


----------



## MrDavey2Shoes

Nivek said:


> Knapton is good at one kind of carving. And I've seen him basically state that though can't carve deep on regular width boards. Which he used to ride a Custom X btw. He gets a kickback every time he makes a successful referral to Donek. Keep that in mind if you ever do ask for advice.


Do you think it’s a foot size issue or a technique issue that limits him to super wide boards?


----------



## Nivek

MrDavey2Shoes said:


> Nivek said:
> 
> 
> 
> Knapton is good at one kind of carving. And I've seen him basically state that though can't carve deep on regular width boards. Which he used to ride a Custom X btw. He gets a kickback every time he makes a successful referral to Donek. Keep that in mind if you ever do ask for advice.
> 
> 
> 
> Do you think it’s a foot size issue or a technique issue that limits him to super wide boards?
Click to expand...

It's a style thing. And I could be full of shit but I feel like he rides like 9/-9 or some shit, which doesnt help.


----------



## Craig64

Nivek said:


> It's a style thing. And I could be full of shit but I feel like he rides like 9/-9 or some shit, which doesnt help.


Knapton rides a 160, 31.2 WW whilst riding +/-15 with a 9.8m radius sidecut. He rides that wide to prevent boot out whilst getting his board almost 90 degrees on his euro's.:surprise:

Watch heaps of his vid's...., is an insanely shit hot rider for what he does.


----------



## bazman

It is his style. He rides twins with duck stance so he can carve etc in both directions and get the board high on edge. He has duct tape on his jacket arms to allow him to get body parallel to ground when on edge

Has evolved over time wider and wider, and with bigger sidecut as well (Currently 12 or 13m I think)

If you are not switch carving or carving at extreme angles you don't need that type of board


----------



## Nivek

That sidecut is a huge reason his waists are so wide. The larger sidecut you go with the wider you'll need your waist to be to maintain a certain width at inserts. 


Which is why we need to stop using the ski measurement of waist width and move to width at inderts.


----------



## MrDavey2Shoes

^preach the good word!


----------



## Paxford

I went from a board designed to carve and ride switch (typical western style all-mountain) to a board designed to snowsurf (Japan style across all conditions). They are not comparable. I'll never ride anything but a dedicated snowsurfer again. My comments below are in blue



jsil said:


> I moved to the mountains two season ago and bought my first board (after learning to snowboard twenty years ago)...
> 
> Moved from the coast? Do you surf on water? Perspective is everything. I wouldn't recommend a snowsurfer to someone who doesn't have the experience to rail it ... they may be disappointed. It sounds like you are ready for the magic to happen though. I went down a similar road of trying to find a board in the US that'll work best for snowsurfing in ALL conditions, not just pow. I didn't find much help here, folks labeled boards I was looking at as a "pow" quiver board. Built in to the minds of western snowboarders is a resistance to any snowboard not shaped like a pill . People simply aren't breaking down snowsurfing and board design on this forum, I wish they would!
> 
> I enjoy ripping big carves and honestly enjoying playing all over the mountain without just straight-lining and bombing. There's a place for it, but I feel that the magic of the turn is what really gets me.
> 
> Me too. In snowboarding, surfing, skateboarding and mountain biking I strive to find (or design myself) the perfect weapon to rail turns given my height, weight, skill and terrain. You can't have everything. If turning is what matters most to you then you need to compromise on other design factors, like switch for example.
> 
> I do ride a bit of switch, and prefer a board that can at least do it when the need arises (landing switch, easier route through the trees switching over, etc.) ...
> 
> Get over it, I did and haven't looked back. Once I had the right board in trees I no longer needed to ride switch. Why? Because the board turns so well. My line choices have increased exponentially. The board will ride switch briefly when needed but that is rare. It'll butter and press too, not great, but it'll do it.
> 
> I think the perfect board for me would be something that you size down, can still handle speed, can really hold an edge, has a large sidecut that can rail turns, a bigger nose and maybe some early rise to still handle some pow, and can handle a bit of switch riding (buttering/screwing around too).
> 
> I made this mistake too, thinking I could come up with a host of design parameters that would lead me to my perfect board. The board doesn't exist and if it did it probably wouldn't work! Each design parameter effects the rest. My designed board would be like a primordial soup, while a good shapers board is a highly evolved creature. I thought I wanted a larger sidecut like you do, and I was wrong! What I ended up with was a board with less sidecut than I thought I wanted but will still rail long, medium and short radius turns. It'll also break-free and re-engage the edge whenever I please. I'd suggest having faith that your board shaper has taken all the factors in to account in designing a board that turns beautifully.
> 
> My current quiver is:
> 
> A bunch of boards I too was almost snookered in to buying because they seemed like a fit. So glad I didn't! Although that Ride Warpig is a nice board if they would just narrow up the stance a bit more. I had considered putting my son on that board as a budget compromise to buying a true snowsurfer
> 
> 
> Below is my short list which I'm sure I'll add to with your responses, please feel free to comment on any and all if you have experience with them. What other boards would you guys recommend I look at?
> 
> Snofisk and SnowPlanks.
> 
> I know that a Gentemstick or Moss Snowstick would probably be ideal, but they are a LOT of money.
> 
> Unless a swallow tail significantly adds to the ride, I'd prefer a non-swallow for better switch (if that's a thing).
> 
> UGGG!!!! So happy with my swallow, but I care about turning. I only turn on average every few seconds from the very top of the run to the very bottom of the run, for like 8 hours a day so I guess it isn't THAT important what the turn feels like :wink: There may be other tails like a pin that'll be more switch friendly but I haven't ridden those on snow and compared to my swallow. All I know is I dislike other tails when I surf on water, but my swallow tail puts a huge grin on my face and works almost everywhere.
> 
> - Elevated Surfcraft Goldfish / Redtail Hawk (love the idea of these, but a little pricey if I can't find one used)
> - K2 Simple Pleasures
> - Korua Shapes - Cafe Racer / Tranny Finder
> - United Shaped Cadet
> - YES Optimistic (may be too aggressive for what I'm looking for?)
> 
> You are on the right track with the Goldfish. Aaron shapes them, nice guy who knows what he is doing and rips at snowsurfing! He is one of the few people I came across in my search here in the states that is actually designing boards I would ride. Also google JH Powwow, you'll find other shapers/designs to ponder
> 
> Any and all advice would be great in regards to what I'm looking for.
> 
> Contact James Nicole at Snowplanks in Bend Oregon. I ride one of his board designs, the asym fish 166. He designed it around himself and happens to be my approx. height, weight and foot size so I was able to buy off-the-shelf, but once this one wears out I may tweak a thing or two in a custom build (add a few mm width if James thinks it'll work right). If I were you I would look at the asym 159 but check with James. I believe Aaron at SurfCraft is closer to your size so check with him too, he may have something off the shelf that'll work for you
> 
> BTW I have a pair of Union Stratas and a Ride Vice bindings if that matters and I'm trying to break in a pair of ThirtyTwo TM-3s in the off-season.
> 
> It matters but I don't think it's the end all be all. I ride NOW bindings until I find something better. Definitely replicates the feeling of surfing during turn initiation, and they are responsive. Loose feeling when I need them to be but not sloppy.
> 
> Thanks!


----------



## Paxford

Nivek said:


> I have been through this and continue to search for western boards built to turn like Japanese ones. They turn different. It's hard to quantify.
> 
> What I have ridden that let's me get what I feel like is a similar feel to Moss, Gentem, Tj...
> 
> K2 Simple Pleaures, Rome Ravine, K2 Overboard, Burton Hometown Hero, Gnu Hyper Kyarve.
> 
> A couple I have not ridden but have some high hopes for are the Yes Y and Gnu NuZoid. The Y being a "lower end" Optimistic might make it just soft enough to add the right amount of playfulness. The Zoid would be on this list if Gnu still made it, so the NuZoid being a Zoid mid wide has me very excited.


Great to see someone tapped in to the industry recognize that western boards don't turn like Japanese ones (someone please fix this huge gaping hole in the US market)

I bought my wife a closeout gnu zoid for the upcoming season a few months back. I wasn't certain if it would give her that similar feel but on paper it looked good. I am feeling a bit better about the choice now, counting the days to next season for testing.


----------



## jsil

Thank you everyone for the replies. I'm familiar with Knapton and he's excellent at what he does, but his style of riding really requires BIG empty wide open groomers. He gets out early in the AM before the crowds to film all his stuff. He's also a god at switch and can carve almost as well as regular, but that's not exactly the style I'm after (although if I could ride like him I'd definitely do it!). Honestly its the same reason I'm leaning more towards the Japanese style over the Knapton style or even hard booting.

Paxford -- your thinking mirrors mine and the goldfish and snoplanks asym fish 159 are on my short list. Unfortunately, both of those boards are so pricey (which I understand because of how they are made) so I was hoping to find an alternative without breaking the bank. I did speak with one person who owns gentems, mosses, a goldfish, and asym fish, and a whole host of other boards (thanks!) and definitely think the asym fish would suit me better for all mountain riding than the goldfish. He has never ridden anything with the pop/turn and ride of the asym fish. Is that your experience too? Any other boards you've ridden that can come close?

If a 159 regular asym fish popped up on eBay I'd snap it up in a second, but $800+shipping is a tough pill to swallow (no pun intended).

Thanks!


----------



## Paxford

Sorry for the late reply, work's been crazy.

Nothing comes close but my experience before this is limited to western style boards. The fish feels like a higher volume shortboard built to generate speed easy and turn on a dime in waves up to about 8 ft. It's got some fun and playful flex but will also do short, medium and long radius carves or skidded turns easier than anything I've ridden. It's easy to pump and trim when riding sides of bowls or man-made vertical structure. I like to surf through smaller parks with it, no stops, no switch, just jumps, carving banks and flow. The board is excellent in trees and it will do turns in pow off the front foot. Did I mention it carves up the pow like a hot knife? Ice is a weakness. Asym is good and bad. While it makes the board turn amazing if your straightlining slow on the flats and not paying attention it can drift unexpectedly and catch an edge on ice. Just be aware of it. I try and keep it on edge in ice, in more forgiving snow it isn't a concern.

I never thought I would prefer snowboarding to surfing until I got this board. It's opened up a whole new world that I seem to be pretty alone in, because 95% of folks where I snowsurf (SoCal, Mammoth, Utah) ride straight or skid turns and seem to be focused on park and the industries "All-Mountain" or "Freeride" versions of park. Too much skate focus, not enough surf focus in those designs. A board can't do everything well, but people want it all so that's what the industry delivers ... all-rounders that don't turn as efficiently as they could.


----------



## jsil

Paxford said:


> Sorry for the late reply, work's been crazy.
> 
> Nothing comes close but my experience before this is limited to western style boards. The fish feels like a higher volume shortboard built to generate speed easy and turn on a dime in waves up to about 8 ft. It's got some fun and playful flex but will also do short, medium and long radius carves or skidded turns easier than anything I've ridden. It's easy to pump and trim when riding sides of bowls or man-made vertical structure. I like to surf through smaller parks with it, no stops, no switch, just jumps, carving banks and flow. The board is excellent in trees and it will do turns in pow off the front foot. Did I mention it carves up the pow like a hot knife? Ice is a weakness. Asym is good and bad. While it makes the board turn amazing if your straightlining slow on the flats and not paying attention it can drift unexpectedly and catch an edge on ice. Just be aware of it. I try and keep it on edge in ice, in more forgiving snow it isn't a concern.
> 
> I never thought I would prefer snowboarding to surfing until I got this board. It's opened up a whole new world that I seem to be pretty alone in, because 95% of folks where I snowsurf (SoCal, Mammoth, Utah) ride straight or skid turns and seem to be focused on park and the industries "All-Mountain" or "Freeride" versions of park. Too much skate focus, not enough surf focus in those designs. A board can't do everything well, but people want it all so that's what the industry delivers ... all-rounders that don't turn as efficiently as they could.


No problem and thanks for the reply. When you say ice is a weakness, do you mean like sheets of it or just does it not do well in hard early morning conditions before the sun softens them up? 

It sounds perfect except for the $800 price... hah


----------



## Paxford

When your on the lift in the morning and all you hear is loud grinding from the folks riding below cautiously (because they fear for their life) that’s the ice I’m talking about. I can still ride it but I can’t push it nearly as hard for fear of washout. I suspect only magnetraction would work ok there. If it’s a a bit Icey but when you lay down an edge it breaks through the granular surface then the board works well enough.


----------



## Paxford

JSIL, what did you end up with? I'm still looking for western boards that are true snowsurfers, not some compromise.


----------



## 16gkid

Have you guys tried the K2 simple pleasures yet? Ive been enjoying mine since last season and I think I do the kind of carving you guys are talking about, sweet board and not too expensive.


----------



## Paxford

The K2 SP’s been on my radar since I bought my asym fish last year. I found one on clearance last season for $300. In fact it was my first choice before I discovered the fish. My plan is to compile a bunch of cheaper western boards as options then buy whatever is a smokin deal come the off season.

Is the SP damp? Chatter?


----------



## jsil

Paxford said:


> JSIL, what did you end up with? I'm still looking for western boards that are true snowsurfers, not some compromise.


I ended up on an Amplid Surfari and it's amazing. Not quite a snowsurf style board because it is an EXTREMELY locked in carve, but this is the best board I've ever ridden. In fact, Amplid has some from a couple years ago for ~$350 w/shipping included from Europe. I paid $640 and I'm still happy with the purchase.

Can't say more about how amazing this board is for carving. Still want to try some other boards, but the rest of my quiver is getting dusty after picking this up. 

In my experience, I'd say for carving and pow this is the best bargain in snowboarding.


----------



## Jkb818

jsil said:


> I ended up on an Amplid Surfari and it's amazing. Not quite a snowsurf style board because it is an EXTREMELY locked in carve, but this is the best board I've ever ridden. In fact, Amplid has some from a couple years ago for ~$350 w/shipping included from Europe. I paid $640 and I'm still happy with the purchase.
> 
> Can't say more about how amazing this board is for carving. Still want to try some other boards, but the rest of my quiver is getting dusty after picking this up.
> 
> In my experience, I'd say for carving and pow this is the best bargain in snowboarding.


Just checked it out. Sweet looking deck!


----------



## Snowdaddy

jsil said:


> I ended up on an Amplid Surfari and it's amazing. Not quite a snowsurf style board because it is an EXTREMELY locked in carve, but this is the best board I've ever ridden. In fact, Amplid has some from a couple years ago for ~$350 w/shipping included from Europe. I paid $640 and I'm still happy with the purchase.
> 
> Can't say more about how amazing this board is for carving. Still want to try some other boards, but the rest of my quiver is getting dusty after picking this up.
> 
> In my experience, I'd say for carving and pow this is the best bargain in snowboarding.


That board has been on my radar for a while, it really looks like a nice board.


----------



## Yeahti87

Well, Amplid makes some super solid boards. I’ve been riding my Unw8 163 more and more lately. Trying to fight the urge to buy a 159 for a daily driver. That Antiphase seems to really work on hard crud and soft moguls that you just carve through if your legs can still take that hard work out.


----------



## NT.Thunder

Yeahti87 said:


> Well, Amplid makes some super solid boards. I’ve been riding my Unw8 163 more and more lately. Trying to fight the urge to buy a 159 for a daily driver. That Antiphase seems to really work on hard crud and soft moguls that you just carve through if your legs can still take that hard work out.
> View attachment 152083


What's the Amplid Stereo like as a one board quiver?


----------



## Yeahti87

NT.Thunder said:


> What's the Amplid Stereo like as a one board quiver?


No idea, I have the UNW8 163 only.


----------



## Snowdaddy

Yeahti87 said:


> Well, Amplid makes some super solid boards. I’ve been riding my Unw8 163 more and more lately. Trying to fight the urge to buy a 159 for a daily driver. That Antiphase seems to really work on hard crud and soft moguls that you just carve through if your legs can still take that hard work out.


Maybe next season will be an Amplid board. I've been looking at Amplids two seasons in a row now. First time was a powder board but ended up with the Pencil Plus instead of a JN (Now snommelier). The JN sold out while I was trying to decide...

If my Nidecker Tracer doesn't work out I might be looking for another piste/carving board. I hesitated getting the Unw8 because it says it's so demanding to ride. Maybe the Paradigma could be the one.


----------



## Yeahti87

Snowdaddy said:


> Maybe next season will be an Amplid board. I've been looking at Amplids two seasons in a row now. First time was a powder board but ended up with the Pencil Plus instead of a JN (Now snommelier). The JN sold out while I was trying to decide...
> 
> If my Nidecker Tracer doesn't work out I might be looking for another piste/carving board. I hesitated getting the Unw8 because it says it's so demanding to ride. Maybe the Paradigma could be the one.


It isn’t as demanding as they say. I don’t spin it (I will start when I have it 100 % dialed on my more forgiving boards) but carving, charging through crud or straight airs with grabs feel really safe. I don’t feel it hooky putting a hard break in front of a fat skier, the demanding part comes mostly from the flex - it is a very stiff board. If I rate my Optimistic or Kazu as 7/10, the UNW8 deserves 9/10. It requires good physical fitness to ride it for 5-6 hours but I enjoy it.


----------



## Snowdaddy

Yeahti87 said:


> It isn’t as demanding as they say. I don’t spin it (I will start when I have it 100 % dialed on my more forgiving boards) but carving, charging through crud or straight airs with grabs feel really safe. I don’t feel it hooky putting a hard break in front of a fat skier, the demanding part comes mostly from the flex - it is a very stiff board. If I rate my Optimistic or Kazu as 7/10, the UNW8 deserves 9/10. It requires good physical fitness to ride it for 5-6 hours but I enjoy it.


Well, the stiffness is what has me hesitating.


----------



## Yeahti87

Snowdaddy said:


> Well, the stiffness is what has me hesitating.


The Surfari has all the tech and is rated softer. I spoke yesterday to a guy from Amplid and he said the Surfari is very comparable to the UNW8 for carving. My solid intermediate friend (carving-wise only) at 70 kg enjoyed my 163 UNW8 on a groomer day to the point he was about to get Penta/Unw8 himself but another day on a busy mogul field resort day the board just rode him mercilessly. The Amplid guy called riding the UNW8 163 at 70 kg ‚almost suicidal’. Now my friend is on the verge of getting the Surfari.


----------



## Snowdaddy

Yeahti87 said:


> The Surfari has all the tech and is rated softer. I spoke yesterday to a guy from Amplid and he said the Surfari is very comparable to the UNW8 for carving. My solid intermediate friend (carving-wise only) at 70 kg enjoyed my 163 UNW8 on a groomer day to the point he was about to get Penta/Unw8 himself but another day on a busy mogul field resort day the board just rode him mercilessly. The Amplid guy called riding the UNW8 163 at 70 kg ‚almost suicidal’. Now my friend is on the verge of getting the Surfari.


"Almost suicidal" ... That had me laughing! Yes I would imagine it could be like that 

I'll give the Amplid boards another solid thought. It's also possible the Creamer 168 is my next board....


----------



## Yeahti87

Snowdaddy said:


> "Almost suicidal" ... That had me laughing! Yes I would imagine it could be like that
> 
> I'll give the Amplid boards another solid thought. It's also possible the Creamer 168 is my next board....


Yup, haha ? On a nice groomer he enjoyed it but on a mogul field the board took it over lol


----------



## Paxford

jsil said:


> I ended up on an Amplid Surfari and it's amazing. Not quite a snowsurf style board because it is an EXTREMELY locked in carve, but this is the best board I've ever ridden.
> 
> Can't say more about how amazing this board is for carving.


My experience is that locked in carve is both good and bad when it comes to snowsurfing. Easy to set and maintain a carve on piste compared to lesser cambered boards. But not forgiving in turns on sidebanks like lesser cambered boards.


----------



## Jkb818

I really want that Surfari now. Damn this forum!! I’m 145lbs without gear and never ride boards as long as 157 though...


----------



## Paxford

This thread has been helpful for me in understanding how a dedicated snowsurf deck works compared to a more conventional setup. Gotta be careful with camber in selecting boards for snowsurfing. Too much camber will limit your progression. Light camber or flat with early rise nose seems to be the ticket.


----------



## totalsiib

Surprised nobody mentioned the Dupraz. Their snowboard's are measured in feet like surf boards. I never tried any Japanese boards but the carving and the float of a Dupraz definitely felt unique. Can anyone compare a Japanese deck vs the 5'5 or 6' from Dupraz?


----------



## Paxford

Last season I was doin my thing and I spotted another rider. It’s very rare to find anyone who can ride like that in my area. He was on a dupraz. Can’t say whether the dude had skills or it was the board or a bit of both, but the Dupraz is on my radar.


----------



## MrDavey2Shoes

If I were to get a “surf carve” board I wouldn’t opt for full camber. Doesn’t make sense - too locked in to slash. Full camber is for euro/American style carving. For Japanese surf style turns I’m going with a something from Elevated Surfcraft fosho. Something Srockered, flat or back foot cambered.

Cam rock will strike a happy medium between the styles, which is where I sit.


----------



## Paxford

That makes sense. I got extremely lucky with my current deck because the designer went through iterations making the board for himself. He is about the same height, weight and foot size as me.

So very light camber to flat to camrock variety yes but I think there’s more to a board that excels in turns on 3D terrain. Maybe really spot on sizing, or more narrow stance options, or early rise, or a certain amount of setback is needed. I dunno. I do know if I widen my stance my current deck rides like absolute shit. Narrow it back up and the board is back to absolute magic.


----------



## rocky clark

ok what the hell does snowsurf mean?


----------



## Paxford

Taro Tamai’s riding style is snowsurfing.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## MrDavey2Shoes

Aka “down chill” ....basically Japanese style carving. Toy313 is my favorite channel for it


----------



## Paxford

Rad I love downchill! It’s funny to watch this stuff in that the viewer count is SO LOW.

So much for the snowsurfing “movement” afoot. More like a non-movement and total confusion.


----------



## bazman

MrDavey2Shoes said:


> Aka “down chill” ....basically Japanese style carving. Toy313 is my favorite channel for it


Ya me also a fan of Toy Films, there's some great riding on there. I think the reason not many of their vids have very high views is a lot of them are similar but just on different boards


----------



## MrDavey2Shoes

bazman said:


> Ya me also a fan of Toy Films, there's some great riding on there. I think the reason not many of their vids have very high views is a lot of them are similar but just on different boards


My take on that is perhaps they’re primarily Instagram based as opposed to YouTube. Personally I only watch their Instagram clips.


----------



## WigMar

I appreciate how Toy lists rider specs like binding angles and board model. Don't need high view counts to be rad.


----------



## Scalpelman

Not sure why you need to call it something different. Looks to me to be just plain ol’ good carving.


----------



## Paxford

The difference is that snowsurfing involves radical turns on 3D terrain. Like ramping up a side bank, slashing (or carving) and re-entry. Picking your line is a huge part of snowsurfing. Maintaining flow on 3D terrain is made more possible by picking a good line AND executing your maneuver without flaw.

Plain ole good carving is typically limited to more flat (flat from side to side not top to bottom) groomers. And plain ole good carving boards work great for that 2d carving, but can bite you I the ass if you try certain maneuvers on them in 3D terrain.

So having a board that’ll carve up the flats AND the 3D terrain nearby makes a good snowsurf deck.


----------



## Paxford

The difference is that snowsurfing involves radical turns on 3D terrain. Like ramping up a side bank, slashing (or carving) and re-entry. Picking your line is a huge part of snowsurfing. Maintaining flow on 3D terrain is made more possible by picking a good line AND executing your maneuver without flaw.

Plain ole good carving is typically limited to more flat (flat from side to side not top to bottom) groomers. And plain ole good carving boards work great for that 2d carving, but can bite you I the ass if you try certain maneuvers on them in 3D terrain.

So having a board that’ll carve up the flats AND the 3D terrain nearby makes a good snowsurf deck.


----------



## MrDavey2Shoes

Deleted double post


----------



## MrDavey2Shoes

I think it definitely has its own style, however I’m not sure it’s a defined as mentioned above.

I definitely have no problem riding 3D terrain on my cam rock twin.


----------



## Phedder

Literally my favourite thing to do on my Nitro Squash is a deep heelside carve up a bank, back knee tucked in and that gravity defying feeling. It's stiff and full camber, the progressive sidecut certainly helps too. I feel if I tried the same thing as aggressively on a softer board with any rocker, the edge wouldn't hold. I'm a heavier guy too, 200lb. I've no doubt those boards can hold just fine for the 130lb Japanese guys, but I definitely need the stiffness and camber.


----------



## Paxford

Driving up the bank is one thing. Cranking out a gravity defying turn off-the-lip is another. 

No disagreement regarding the benefits of camber to hold an edge. But that same edge hold can catch when you attempt to pivot the board in the top turn. I’m not saying I can’t do it with camber, just that it restricts what you can do with that top turn. I didn’t know any better until I tried a more forgiving deck with lots of early rise in the nose.


----------



## Paxford

Or maybe it isn’t the early rise, maybe it’s the setback that allows for rad top turns on banks. Or both. Still trying to figure this out.


----------



## Scalpelman

Yeah does look like those guys are riding softer boards. Talented carvers. But I’m pretty sure all of us ride in three dimensions.


----------



## Yeahti87

I follow these guys too and they ride all kind of boards, from Twinpigs/Warpigs through K2 SP to full camber carvers with super long effective edge like Flux D1. I think it’s all about their crazy skills that allows them to ride with that super smooth style (they ride them all double forward stance and yet do crazy spins with revert carves, switch eurocarve etc.).


----------



## Paxford

Geez ya’ll are supposed to say only a $1500+ Japanese board will do, nothing less.

Now wtf am I going to tell my wife.


----------



## Yeahti87

Paxford said:


> Geez ya’ll are supposed to say only a $1500+ Japanese board will do, nothing less.
> 
> Now wtf am I going to tell my wife.


Naah, I just meant here that they ride all kind of board profiles and still snowsurf it in a Japanese style no matter what.
But if it helps with your wife I’d tell her you need it to ride like that hah


----------



## Paxford

Already ride like that (minus the tricks) but only one deck allows me to go balls out. Trying to quantify what about that deck makes it work on the side banks so well while other decks struggle.


----------



## 16gkid

Yeahti87 said:


> Naah, I just meant here that they ride all kind of board profiles and still snowsurf it in a Japanese style no matter what.
> But if it helps with your wife I’d tell her you need it to ride like that hah


That's exactly why I think these specific surfy carve board is bullshit, it's mostly on the rider, I laugh when dudes talk about buying a Japanese board for double the price of a regular board so you can surf carve, like cool story bro , my simple pleasures disagrees


----------



## lbs123

Toy Films fan here too. My favourite riders are Ryota Nagaya and Seiko Hotta, both have very smooth style. I think it's more about getting low, quick edge to edge transition and hands position rather than particular board or terrain.


----------



## WigMar

I really like how Toy Films lists the rider, board, and stance for each run. I like to watch the same riders on different boards to see how that affects their style. I also like to see them change stance angles sometimes. I've been learning more from that than I had expected to. Some of the spin happy kids rock odd stances like 6,-6. There's no chance I could fit that on the boards they do without seriously booting out. 

I don't think that specific carving boards are bullshit when you have big feet. Those Japanese guys are lucky they don't have these huge feet when they rip carves that deep on whatever board they happen to be on. Also, K2 has a large Japanese team who favor the simple pleasures, so.... cool story bro. I agree that it's more of a style thing.


----------



## MCrides

16gkid said:


> That's exactly why I think these specific surfy carve board is bullshit, it's mostly on the rider, I laugh when dudes talk about buying a Japanese board for double the price of a regular board so you can surf carve, like cool story bro , my simple pleasures disagrees


Your simple pleasures _is_ a snow surf style board though. Directional shape, setback, taper, wide waist, camber with early rise, slightly larger side cut radius... And it’s $600. A Japanese-made Korua costs less than that.

I mean the board doesn’t make the rider, but especially for bigger guys there aren’t a _ton_ of cheap options with specs like that—it might be a mistake, but Evo says the simple pleasure 156 is for weights below 150!


----------



## lbs123

MCrides said:


> I mean the board doesn’t make the rider, but especially for bigger guys there aren’t a _ton_ of cheap options with specs like that—it might be a mistake, but Evo says the simple pleasure 156 is for weights below 150!


It's probably a mistake, on K2 website it says 140 - 230+


----------



## Phedder

MCrides said:


> Your simple pleasures _is_ a snow surf style board though. Directional shape, setback, taper, wide waist, camber with early rise, slightly larger side cut radius... And it’s $600. A *Japanese-made Korua costs less than that.*
> 
> I mean the board doesn’t make the rider, but especially for bigger guys there aren’t a _ton_ of cheap options with specs like that—it might be a mistake, but Evo says the simple pleasure 156 is for weights below 150!


Pretty sure Korua is made in Austria and Poland, a 7.7m sidecut is *far* from a large radius, and Evo definitely means over 150lb.


----------



## Paxford

16gkid said:


> That's exactly why I think these specific surfy carve board is bullshit, it's mostly on the rider, I laugh when dudes talk about buying a Japanese board for double the price of a regular board so you can surf carve, like cool story bro , my simple pleasures disagrees


Glad you got my joke, because I will NOT be buying a $1500 Japanese board. Threw that out there to stir these guys up and get them thinking about the million dollar question. What decks are best for snowsurf and why?

Specific surfy carve board is legit. You’ve got one. Very light camber with a big rockered nose, setback and some taper. There may be other design features like tail shape contributing to it being a good snowsurf deck. 

My hope is to break down the design of various specific surfy carve boards to see what works and where. Cut out the freestyle trick focused stuff. Your SP isn’t going to ride like an Elevated SurfCraft Goldfish but they are both considered snowsurf friendly. Or compare the Rossi Sushi with the Sashimi. Similar base design but tweaked so each board excels at different things. Which is good for snowsurfing? Arguably both (notice the XV isn’t mentioned) but a rider needs to understand the subtleties of each design to know what they are getting and how it will perform snowsurfing. 

And I agree it is mostly on the rider, but once your on the level at 95% of your potential then a properly dialed board can get you to progress through the rest of that 5%. 

And then there’s how damp a board is. Sometimes I’m just lazy and don’t want to shred all day. So I need a lazy man’s snowsurf deck too. Thinking that deck is that big ole K2 Overboard.


----------



## Paxford

WigMar said:


> I like to watch the same riders on different boards to see how that affects their style.


Me too. I take it a step further and try to focus on just the board and how well it flows across the terrain. It helps take rider skill covering up deficits of the board out of the equation.


----------



## MrDavey2Shoes

I rode warm soft corduroy this morning on my Party Platter, I was surprised how turny it was. Elbow dropped all over them foos between features in the park. That was delightful. Hard to get more three dimensional than sending a kicker and dropping an elbow on your way to the next one lol


----------



## WigMar

I love this K2 team Japan edit. You can see a lot of the personalities in the boards. Yo Amagai makes the Overboard look like it's the laid out carve king. Simple pleasures looks very agile and surfy on banks. Party platter is a party, and the bean hits the big waves. 
K2 Japan


----------



## Jkb818

Was at Solitude today and I was really focusing doing surfy flowing turns in the gully’s. Less concerned with bombing down the trail and more about the flow. Oh and I was riding my Endeavor Archetype.


----------



## Jkb818




----------



## Scalpelman

Jkb818 said:


> View attachment 152295


Now that’s a good line.


----------



## 16gkid

Trying to carve on 6 inches of fresh snow, the United shapes Orbit is one stiff fucker!


----------



## Scalpelman

Why even try? Slash that shit!


----------



## 16gkid

Scalpelman said:


> Why even try? Slash that shit!


Slashed my friend


----------



## Paxford

WigMar said:


> I love this K2 team Japan edit. You can see a lot of the personalities in the boards. Yo Amagai makes the Overboard look like it's the laid out carve king. Simple pleasures looks very agile and surfy on banks. Party platter is a party, and the bean hits the big waves.
> K2 Japan



Wigmar, the K2 japan video is incredible. Great for seeing how each board rides back to back across the spectrum of boards. IMO the bean and SP are in the class of snowsurf decks. The Bottle Rocket looks borderline. The rest look like mix use boards designed to satisfy other curiosities. I still want an Overboard.

Found this review on the Bean. What seems odd is the reviewer found it rips groomers but it's not so great in pow, yet they still consider it a snowsurf deck.









K2’s Cool Bean Brings The Snowsurf Experience Inbounds – Teton Tested


The K2 Cool Bean is the perfect snowboard shape for someone looking to get into a short, directional swallowtail for the first time. This fish knows no boundaries on-piste, making the Bean my “go-to” shortboard for inbounds shenanigans. If you’re searching for a fun, quiver-killing fish with an...




www.tetongravity.com


----------



## MrDavey2Shoes

@16gkid what are your thoughts on the orbit. I’ve always been curious about that board.


----------



## 16gkid

MrDavey2Shoes said:


> @16gkid what are your thoughts on the orbit. I’ve always been curious about that board.


Build quality seems good, Its a 157 and stiffer than my 156 Simple Pleasures, definitely a carver as it has over 40mm more effective edge than the SP while only being 1cm longer! But it also means its not fantastic at riding low angle pow since it wants to sink, the EE runs all the way to the tip. Ive only had it out on a powder day but will get a full day on it this friday on my little ski hill in WI. Will update post with a video. But this is def not as versatile as the SP.


----------



## 16gkid

WigMar said:


> I love this K2 team Japan edit. You can see a lot of the personalities in the boards. Yo Amagai makes the Overboard look like it's the laid out carve king. Simple pleasures looks very agile and surfy on banks. Party platter is a party, and the bean hits the big waves.
> K2 Japan


thanks for the link, that was a fun watch, I have the Bottle Rocket as my twin board in the quiver, and after watching that video im def not man enough for that thing, dude was sending it!


----------



## Yeahti87

I was also curious about the Orbit. Post some more feedback after a few days on it ?


----------



## WigMar

Paxford said:


> Wigmar, the K2 japan video is incredible. Great for seeing how each board rides back to back across the spectrum of boards. IMO the bean and SP are in the class of snowsurf decks. The Bottle Rocket looks borderline. The rest look like mix use boards designed to satisfy other curiosities. I still want an Overboard.
> 
> Found this review on the Bean. What seems odd is the reviewer found it rips groomers but it's not so great in pow, yet they still consider it a snowsurf deck.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> K2’s Cool Bean Brings The Snowsurf Experience Inbounds – Teton Tested
> 
> 
> The K2 Cool Bean is the perfect snowboard shape for someone looking to get into a short, directional swallowtail for the first time. This fish knows no boundaries on-piste, making the Bean my “go-to” shortboard for inbounds shenanigans. If you’re searching for a fun, quiver-killing fish with an...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.tetongravity.com


I still want an Overboard too! I was on the lookout for a SP or Bean, and I found a new bean at a pawnshop for a great deal. It's a 144 that holds my 210 pounds shockingly well, but I think I could use a 150 sometimes. It almost forces you to ride in the snowsurf style, otherwise it won't turn well. It's so stiff and wide you need to get it on edge. Whenever I let someone borrow it, they're carving and slashing around after a run or two. It is oddly slow in powder, kinda like it is larger than it is. I liked that once I got used to it. I was charging more aggressive lines. It's not my main powder deck, but for a foot or less it's a ton of fun. I wonder how the 150 would float me, and if it would still have that slower floaty feeling.

16gkid, that bottle rocket looks like a blast. I wouldn't be sending it like that either! Your description of the Simple Pleasures just makes me want one more.


----------



## Paxford

Awesome, because I’ve been hesitant on the Bean since the stance isn’t narrow enough for me on the 150, but if the 144 floats you it’ll work for me at ~195-200 lbs kitted up. 

Your experience in pow seems like the review I posted (not that great) but that isn’t what I want it for anyway. Plan to surf groomers and side hills with it, or an SP, whichever I find on clearance. Check out some surfing on hard pack ...


__
http://instagr.am/p/B7zi3ehHMiP/


----------



## Paxford

Btw I think that’s a gentemstick rocket fish 145


----------



## WigMar

Rider, board and terrain flowing together beautifully there. Nice clip.


----------



## Magikarps

yo checkout K2 coolbean, super directional swallow tail with mad width, can cave like a dream and really fun on deep days more stiff than most short-wides i find too


----------



## Paxford

Welcome to the party, looks like you’re just a tad behind ...


----------



## Paxford

Wigmar, how does your Slasher compare to your Bean?


----------



## WigMar

I've only had the slasher out a few days, but here's some impressions. I'm 210# on a 144 K2 Cool Bean and a 151 Spring Break Slush Slasher.

Flex- SS is softer. You feel the torsional flex- it's easier to foot steer. Butters and wheelies and easy too. It still seems to bust through tracked out terrain with that abrupt and aggressive nose rocker. The cool bean is exceptional at blasting through rutted out Summit county pow. It's stiffer, and you can lay your weight into it. SS feels more playful even though the bean is easy to throw around. 

Sidecut- The cool bean has a dialed progressive sidecut that feels great. It's got more grip than I was expecting. Once I trusted its grip, I was laying into turns harder than probably ever before. Once fully on edge, the sidecut was tighter than I wanted, and it felt swoopy and too agile at higher speeds. I think we reverse center flex boards to enlarge sidecut radius and that felt hard on the Bean- maybe due to the stiffness. The SS has a huge 14.4 meter sidecut that you don't have to reverse flex to have larger turns, which feel super buttery smooth as a result. There's less heelside chatter than I'm used to. The softer flex lets you center flex to get those tight turns if you want them too. The single radius sidecut feels old school and predictable, but probably won't grip harder hardpack and ice as well as the Bean. 

Powder- The bean is oddly slower than I would expect. It turns great- requiring more surfy, fuller body movements that feel wonderful. I was charging powder harder than ever, and that felt good too. It didn't glide that much in flats though. I'm 210# on the 144 which probably explains that. The SS feels surfy in the powder, but the extra flex requires less body inputs. It is easier to maneuver through the trees, but feels faster too. SS does pretty well in powder overall, and has enough float and glide not to disappoint. 

Steering- The bean taught me more about front-back weight distribution through a turn, and made me carve on it more properly. The SS I can steer with the feet more, and still carves like a champ. 

Overall, they're pretty similar. The bean feels more unique and the SS is more playful. It's funny I bought both, because there's a ton of overlap. I just gave my bean to my brother who's a little smaller than I am. It fits him better. He loves it so much he's riding with me on groomer days again. It was worth getting a different board just for the company. I was looking at the 150 Cool Bean, but wanted to try something different. I'm glad that I did, even if it's just for the sake of experimentation and learning.


----------



## Paxford

Just caught the review of the K2 SP on the Goodride. I need one like yesterday. That dude speaks my language (surf).

He also just reviewed the Asym Fish. Didn't like it. I think he had the wrong size board. He's in between the 166 and 159 IMO so no good option there for him. He also had the wrong binding setup to really feel what that deck is all about. I know because when I change my stance or angles it destroys the feel of the board, she's a picky one. But he is right about not being comfortable on the heelside right out of the box, it took a lot of getting use to for me to be able to rail it heelside consistently.


----------



## MrDavey2Shoes

Paxford said:


> Just caught the review of the K2 SP on the Goodride. I need one like yesterday. That dude speaks my language (surf).
> 
> He also just reviewed the Asym Fish. Didn't like it. I think he had the wrong size board. He's in between the 166 and 159 IMO so no good option there for him. He also had the wrong binding setup to really feel what that deck is all about. I know because when I change my stance or angles it destroys the feel of the board, she's a picky one. But he is right about not being comfortable on the heelside right out of the box, it took a lot of getting use to for me to be able to rail it heelside consistently.


You don’t want to speak that guys language.


----------



## Paxford

Ha, yes I do. Do you have a beef with him? Without name calling please do share your concerns. If they are valid and relevant to my riding style I’ll listen.

If they are one-sided or not relevant to my riding style then ... well ... meh.


----------



## Jkb818

Complaints about The Good Ride


As it's no secret I loath The Good Ride and well I just generally hate James Biesty with more fire and heat than a 1000 suns will produce it should come as no surprise that I'm working on a Top 5's list for Why The Good Ride Sucks. I have my reasons, but you Snowboarders of the Internet seem to...




www.snowboardingforum.com


----------



## WigMar

He does speak like a surfer, and I get that too. It can be helpful to compare snowboards to surfboards or to skateboards sometimes, especially if you're coming from that background. Check out their review of the Cool Bean though... Nevermind! I was going to link it but they took it down, maybe cause we were talking too much shit! Are you reading this Beastie?


----------



## Paxford

Ok cool BA doesn’t like him. How does that equate to him giving 100% bad advice we should all ignore? Do you all just follow BA like sheep? Don’t get me wrong I follow BA’s reviews as well for a different perspective.

Having a hard time ignoring a wealth of information here.


----------



## Jkb818

I was just sharing a link. No negative opinions on the a Good Ride personally.


----------



## 16gkid

Paxford said:


> Do you all just follow BA like sheep?


You just described half the forum


----------



## Paxford

More like 90%


----------



## Paxford

Jkb818 said:


> Complaints about The Good Ride
> 
> 
> As it's no secret I loath The Good Ride and well I just generally hate James Biesty with more fire and heat than a 1000 suns will produce it should come as no surprise that I'm working on a Top 5's list for Why The Good Ride Sucks. I have my reasons, but you Snowboarders of the Internet seem to...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.snowboardingforum.com


Jkb thanks for sharing. 

Looks like mostly baseless bullying to me, with a few legit call-outs of mistakes he’s made. Folks I hope you realize he turns a camera on himself and talks for like 10+ minutes sometimes? Without editing the mistakes are going to make it through.

Does BA edit his clips? Rhetorical ...

Come on guys you seem concerned about his personal mannerisms mostly. Then there are a few very odd comments along this line ...


“nothing of what they have to say tends to be useful, informative, or interesting...

If I have to skip the majority of a review due to annoying banter, then it's a complete waste of my time.”

There is a reason for that flavor of comment being repeated by multiple snowboarders. You just don’t get it. It’s because you don’t surf, it’s that simple. It’s hard to look inward and realize you are the problem, not the content you do not understand because it doesn’t conform to your schema.


----------



## SGboarder

WigMar said:


> He does speak like a surfer, and I get that too. It can be helpful to compare snowboards to surfboards or to skateboards sometimes, especially if you're coming from that background. Check out their review of the Cool Bean though... Nevermind! I was going to link it but they took it down, maybe cause we were talking too much shit! Are you reading this Beastie?


He speaks like wannabe surfer/kook.


----------



## SGboarder

Paxford said:


> Ok cool BA doesn’t like him. How does that equate to him giving 100% bad advice we should all ignore? Do you all just follow BA like sheep? Don’t get me wrong I follow BA’s reviews as well for a different perspective.
> 
> Having a hard time ignoring a wealth of information here.


BA thinks of himself as an insider and part of the snowboarding community/establishment/industry because he has been around in various roles for a long time. He dislikes James because his role and function in the community as 'authority' on tech, board design/cosntruction etc is somewhat threatened by TGR.
It's quite funny because James and even more so some of the other TGR guys are way better riders than Avran. Avran and James are both still pretty mediocre and ironically much worse than many of the people that they dole out advice to. James has actually really improved over the last few years.


----------



## SGboarder

Paxford said:


> Jkb thanks for sharing.
> 
> Looks like mostly baseless bullying to me, with a few legit call-outs of mistakes he’s made. Folks I hope you realize he turns a camera on himself and talks for like 10+ minutes sometimes? Without editing the mistakes are going to make it through.
> 
> Does BA edit his clips? Rhetorical ...
> 
> Come on guys you seem concerned about his personal mannerisms mostly. Then there are a few very odd comments along this line ...
> 
> 
> “nothing of what they have to say tends to be useful, informative, or interesting...
> 
> If I have to skip the majority of a review due to annoying banter, then it's a complete waste of my time.”
> 
> There is a reason for that flavor of comment being repeated by multiple snowboarders. You just don’t get it. It’s because you don’t surf, it’s that simple. It’s hard to look inward and realize you are the problem, not the content you do not understand because it doesn’t conform to your schema.


Nah, he still talks a lot of nonsense and gets all kinds of things wrong. Part is the mannerisms. Another part is that it is just hard to remember the details of all the gear if you're trying out so many items. But he really does not know what he is talking about a lot of the time and the 'reviews' of board after a couple of groomer runs are ridiculous.


----------



## Paxford

SGboarder said:


> He speaks like wannabe surfer/kook.


Not in my neck of the woods. Plenty of older shredders spinning yarn in the lots. Your wrong about this in my area. Where do you surf?


----------



## MrDavey2Shoes

@Paxford
Check out the review for the new party platter...pretty much sums up my issue my issue with TGR.

The new drunk rambling format is pretty much crap. If you listen carefully you realize he saying the same thing about every board. “Surfy turny off the back foot”. I just don’t think he’s objective.
He is very responsive to emails though. So there’s that.

Anyway that’s all I’ve got to say on the subject. I’ve been kicking around the idea of a Korua Dart once my Gnu SPAM gives up on me.


----------



## Paxford

SGboarder said:


> BA thinks of himself as an insider and part of the snowboarding community/establishment/industry because he has been around in various roles for a long time. He dislikes James because his role and function in the community as 'authority' on tech, board design/cosntruction etc is somewhat threatened by TGR.
> It's quite funny because James and even more so some of the other TGR guys are way better riders than Avran. Avran and James are both still pretty mediocre and ironically much worse than many of the people that they dole out advice to. James has actually really improved over the last few years.


Appreciate the unfiltered info here. I see it the same but BA and James are welcome to come on and explain if this beef isn’t about competition. I’m not concerned about how “good” James or Avran are, but there is a minimum level of competency combined with design knowledge required for me to respect someone’s opinion on a deck. Both Avran and James meet it. I don’t think Avran would understand half of what I say. James would get it. But Avran’s reviews still hold a ton of value for me.


----------



## Snow Hound

Talking like a surfer whilst reviewing snowboards but it's the snowboarder viewers who are in the wrong for not understanding because they're not surfers even though they're watching a snowboard review?

Give it up @Paxford, you're not winning this argument.


----------



## Rip154

Talking like a surfer is kinda exaggerated, but doesn't really mean anything to someone who haven't tried surfing or the surfboards being compared. It can say something about the effort needed to turn and the tail release, but that's about it.


----------



## SGboarder

Paxford said:


> Appreciate the unfiltered info here. I see it the same but BA and James are welcome to come on and explain if this beef isn’t about competition. I’m not concerned about how “good” James or Avran are, *but there is a minimum level of competency combined with design knowledge required for me to respect someone’s opinion on a deck. Both Avran and James meet it.* I don’t think Avran would understand half of what I say. James would get it. But Avran’s reviews still hold a ton of value for me.


Disagree - at least for any mildly competent rider. Neither is qualified enough to have much of an informed view - couple that with general ignorance/lack of knowledge (James and gang), bias because of brand connections or relationship/hand-outs (Avran) plus narrow board preferences (both, especially James) and you wind up with generally useless garbage 'reviews' and irrelevant blather from both.


----------



## 16gkid

Boardarchive 4 lyfe


----------



## kieloa

16gkid said:


> Boardarchive 4 lyfe


Hahaha nice joke! ?


----------



## MrDavey2Shoes

Welp, another devolved thread for the mods to shut


----------



## 16gkid

kieloa said:


> Hahaha nice joke! ?


Not a joke, I like his format and I like that he actually shows us riding the board and it's an entertaining video, I'm guessing u prefer the angry method, i can't trust someone who I'm not even sure is a competent snowboarder


----------



## 16gkid

MrDavey2Shoes said:


> Welp, another devolved thread for the mods to shut


Circle of life


----------



## kieloa

16gkid said:


> Not a joke, I like his format and I like that he actually shows us riding the board and it's an entertaining video, I'm guessing u prefer the angry method, i can't trust someone who I'm not even sure is a competent snowboarder


Can't comment on his park riding, but he's pretty awkward in powder. I wouldn't take advice from him either. Best to go with your own gut.


----------



## 16gkid

kieloa said:


> Best to go with your own gut.


I do this most of the time and do my research before pulling the the trigger, it's nice to see the board in action once a while and kinda helps push me into buying something, like with my party wave, I was already thinking about getting it, but after I saw tj ripping it in Pow and carving in groomers I said fuck it and bought it that day because it looked so fun!


----------



## smellysell

16gkid said:


> I do this most of the time and do my research before pulling the the trigger, it's nice to see the board in action once a while and kinda helps push me into buying something, like with my party wave, I was already thinking about getting it, but after I saw tj ripping it in Pow and carving in groomers I said fuck it and bought it that day because it looked so fun!


What size did you get? I'm strongly considering one, but am a little gun shy after my experience with the 150 Party Platter. 

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## 16gkid

smellysell said:


> What size did you get? I'm strongly considering one, but am a little gun shy after my experience with the 150 Party Platter.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


Wanted the 148 but they ran out so got the 151, no regrets on size, I love this board, perfectly named as this board is for partying, softer than mid flex with positive camber, this thing pops like crazy!, See a lip, pull an Ollie and this sucker will fly! If my simple pleasures is a 10 in carving, this thing is an 8, good float in powder, 3bt doesn't feel too abnormal, only complaint is the cheaper extruded base, but cant complain too much since this board is so cheap! This thing will turn into the daily driver once spring time comes.


----------



## smellysell

16gkid said:


> Wanted the 148 but they ran out so got the 151, no regrets on size, I love this board, perfectly named as this board is for partying, softer than mid flex with positive camber, this thing pops like crazy!, See a lip, pull an Ollie and this sucker will fly! If my simple pleasures is a 10 in carving, this thing is an 8, good float in powder, 3bt doesn't feel too abnormal, only complaint is the cheaper extruded base, but cant complain too much since this board is so cheap! This thing will turn into the daily driver once spring time comes.
> View attachment 152455


Sounds a lot like the party platter, 150 was just too small to keep me up in powder, especially if it was even remotely low grade. 

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## 16gkid

smellysell said:


> Sounds a lot like the party platter, 150 was just too small to keep me up in powder, especially if it was even remotely low grade.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


I guess it depends on your size, I'm only 160lbs so I have no problem floating on short fats( I've had instagator, libtech mayhem, Rossi sushi)


----------



## BoardieK

View attachment 152456


Ha! So your smart-arsed camera can't hide the poles shadow then?


----------



## Jkb818

16gkid said:


> I guess it depends on your size, I'm only 160lbs so I have no problem floating on short fats( I've had instagator, libtech mayhem, Rossi sushi)
> View attachment 152456


Do you live in Park City?


----------



## 16gkid

BoardieK said:


> View attachment 152456
> 
> 
> Ha! So your smart-arsed camera can't hide the poles shadow then?


Nyet!!!


----------



## 16gkid

Jkb818 said:


> Do you live in Park City?


No just there a lot lol, PC hostel makes going there so easy


----------



## WigMar

16gkid said:


> I do this most of the time and do my research before pulling the the trigger, it's nice to see the board in action once a while and kinda helps push me into buying something, like with my party wave, I was already thinking about getting it, but after I saw tj ripping it in Pow and carving in groomers I said fuck it and bought it that day because it looked so fun!


Yeah, many of the boards I buy I can't really find many reviews on. I go by the specs, which tell a lot about how something will probably feel. There was pretty much nothing out about Signal's Tailgunner when I bought that. I just ordered an Amplid Pentaquark sight unseen and fairly unreviewed as well. 

That party wave looks sick! it was definitely on my radar, but I went with a slush slasher to try a larger sidecut. Still interested in that 3BT as well.


----------



## NT.Thunder

smellysell said:


> Sounds a lot like the party platter, 150 was just too small to keep me up in powder, especially if it was even remotely low grade.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


Just ordered a K2 Party Platter LTD yesterday with Ride LTD bindings - should be here next week.

Went with the 147, was hard to find actually here in Aus.


----------



## smellysell

NT.Thunder said:


> Just ordered a K2 Party Platter LTD yesterday with Ride LTD bindings - should be here next week.
> 
> Went with the 147, was hard to find actually here in Aus.


You'll love it as long as you aren't a sasquatch like me. 

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## MrDavey2Shoes

I’m 175 size 8 boots - I like my party platter 147. I think it’s my daily when I don’t want to charge. But I usually want to charge so nevermind.

It’s really great for “surfing” so long as you’re careful not to overpower it. It’s best at moderate or “party” speed. I was looking at the party wave but the PP seemed like a better all rounder. Probably not as good in pow unless I set it back though. Super fun board!


----------



## NT.Thunder

MrDavey2Shoes said:


> I’m 175 size 8 boots - I like my party platter 147. I think it’s my daily when I don’t want to charge. But I usually want to charge so nevermind.
> 
> It’s really great for “surfing” so long as you’re careful not to overpower it. It’s best at moderate or “party” speed. I was looking at the party wave but the PP seemed like a better all rounder. Probably not as good in pow unless I set it back though. Super fun board!


I'm 160 size 10.5 and ordered the 147. My 12yo daughter is right into skiing now and thought this board would be fun at a slower speed to just hang out with her while she learns, although she's more than capable with the intermediate runs now. Just looks like a fun option to hang out with her.


----------



## Paxford

16gkid said:


> I've had ... libtech mayhem ]


RNF or Rocket?


----------



## 16gkid

Paxford said:


> RNF or Rocket?


Neither, the Jamie Lynn lost mayhem board ?


----------



## smellysell

MrDavey2Shoes said:


> I’m 175 size 8 boots - I like my party platter 147. I think it’s my daily when I don’t want to charge. But I usually want to charge so nevermind.
> 
> It’s really great for “surfing” so long as you’re careful not to overpower it. It’s best at moderate or “party” speed. I was looking at the party wave but the PP seemed like a better all rounder. Probably not as good in pow unless I set it back though. Super fun board!


Yeah, definitely not a charger. Spot at my buddies hill you have to hit at Mach 5 to get up a hill and across the flats. Felt like my bindings were gonna rattle off with how hard it was flapping around. 

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## kimchijajonshim

Currently own a Dupraz D1 6'+, a Moss Wingswallow 149, a Moss SW62, and a United Shapes Cadet 162. Previously owned Moss PQ54 and K2 Cool Bean 150. Also have demoed a Korua Tranny Finder 157, Moss SW70, Moss Long 184, Moss U5 156, Moss PQ60, Gentemstick Chaser 156, a Nitro Quiver Pow 154, took like 3 turns on an Elevated Surf Craft prototype that I think never made it to production. So I have a bit of experience with the snowsurf thing. I'm not going to review every single one of those boards, but I'll speak in broad strokes.

Major difference between carving on an all-mountain board a la Knapton and carving on a snowsurfer. All-mountain boards attack, snowsurfers flow. All-mountain boards have more power, more edgehold in the tail, more pop transitioning turn to turn. Snowsurf boards are a lot more relaxed, flowy, generally much more relaxed feel. They're easier to both initiate turns on an exit turns on. I find they tend to be more rear-foot driven, like surfing. I feel like I'm accelerating through turns and I can generally lay over at much lower speeds and on lower grade pitches. I can lay similar lines on my all-mountain freeride Rome Blur 162, but the feel and vibe is completely different. On the Blur, if I see two rollers a few yards apart, I might try to hop the near one and use the far one as a landing. On a snowsurfer, I'm much less likely to leave the ground and might try to see how well I can paint lines through the tranny between the two.

Personally, snowsurfers have completely changed the way I look at the mountain. I used to be a a straight and fast, fall-line sort of rider. Snowsurf has caused me to slow down a lot because I'm taking a lot more turns but also reading the terrain much more actively. Instead of riding the steepest, most efficient way down, I'm always on the lookout for little changes in grade, random banks, and stuff to hit. Snowsurf also makes flatter resorts a lot more interesting. I used to hate on Northstar (sometimes derided as "Flatstar") in Tahoe a lot, but it's actually a fantastic mountain for snowsurf (when it's not crowded with jerries). The experience has generally changed the way I approach the mountain on my all-mountain decks too. I still ride fast, but I'm turning a hell of lot more than I used to.

My stances on the snowsurf boards tend to be much more aggressively double posi and narrower. All-mountain I run around +21-24, -3, 22-23". Snowsurf I often run more like +27/30, +12, 20.5-21.5". For giggles I once tried running +27/+12 on a Niche Aether... disengaging a twin tail on carves was exhausting.

On the $$$$ Japanese snow surfers... won't necessarily call them better. In some ways they're quite limited. But they ride unlike anything else I've ridden before. Very different, and each of the boards has a pretty distinct personality... most all-mountain directional-twin boards I ride kind of blend together unless I really like them or really dislike them. Most fall into a kind of grey zone where I thought they were good enough but didn't stand out. I distinctly remember every Moss or Gentem I've put to snow. I didn't necessarily like all of them, but I remember all of them.

Like I said, some limitations. You'd be surprised how well the riding translates considering they're built for Japanese mountains. I'm 210 lbs and ride Tahoe, so I'm significantly bigger and riding much heavier snow pack in much gnarlier terrain than vast majority of Moss consumers. Even on the Wingswallow 149, I feel surprisingly comfortable out there. Biggest issue I've had with them is durability. Can't speak to Gentems, but I learned the hard way on my PQ54 at Jackson Hole that Moss boards have thin bases and don't hold up to scree very well. They're just not optimized to that sort of terrain, so I'd hold them back at certain mountains. That said, only a handful of spots I've ridden so far I won't ride them at. I wouldn't take one out at Sankt Anton, Jackson Hole, or Snowbird... which are all like top 20 gnarliest resorts in the world sort of gnarly. On gnarly mountains I know well, like Squaw or Kirkwood, I feel a lot more comfortable because I know the places and conditions where I can comfortably ride them. Because of the cost of replacing them, and the lack of spots in the US I trust to properly tune them, I do feel I need to baby them and generally err towards not bringing them out if I'm worried about conditions or at unfamiliar mountains. So while they're worth it to me, I have to means to drop that cash (even heavily discounted, a lot of cash) for that luxury and have other boards to supplement in steeper, higher risk conditions.

Snowsurfers exists on a continuum too. Koruas and United Shapes are more hybrid all-mountain/snowsurfer boards. United Shapes is a pretty good "intro to snowsurfer" kind of company. My Cadet was my "starter" snowsurf board, and all-mountain deck that bridges the gap a bit. It has a bit more a rear-foot driven ride on groomers, but I feel comfortable dropping pretty heavy terrain on that thing, and it was my go-to at Jackson Hole once I realized the PQ54 wasn't going to be able to take the punishment. The Tranny Finder was a bit more exotic, but similarly felt I could it worry-free. This hybrid zone might be where I end up eventually end up after I'm done with my snowsurf phase.



totalsiib said:


> Surprised nobody mentioned the Dupraz. Their snowboard's are measured in feet like surf boards. I never tried any Japanese boards but the carving and the float of a Dupraz definitely felt unique. Can anyone compare a Japanese deck vs the 5'5 or 6' from Dupraz?


Dupraz is its own beast entirely. I ride it with more of an all-mountain stance. That thing craves speed and is a rocket. It carves like crap at slow speeds but with huge size and bigger sidecut (8.7m), it's one of the few boards I feel comfortable driving up on edge at like 50+ mph. Typically when I get that fast, I just go straight and do micro adjustment turns. MUCH more power out of the tail-- the "setback" is actually forward of center sidecut. I don't really know why it works, maybe because that long nose counterbalances the weight or something. Short of really tight trees or couloirs, I'd feel comfortable dropping just about any inbounds terrain on the Dupraz. Also takes a hit a hell of lot better than the Japanese boards, held up pretty well to some shark attacks at Snowbird. They're built for the French Alps, so that all makes sense.

Only really complaints I have... 178 cm of board a load to handle in tight spaces. I was positioning to heelside down into a little mini-couloir in Mineral Basin at Snowbird and found myself suspended in air because the entry narrowed and both my nose and tail caught. Only way I was getting out of that situation was by unstrapping and climbing down, or popping 90 and dropping straight... which would have been fine if the mini-couloir was filled in. Thankfully I think I avoided nailing any rocks... that time lol. Also it's to be expected, but 178 is a lot of weight to be carrying off one foot on the chairlift lol.


----------



## BoardieK

I'm intrigued by your stance angles because I use very similar angles but the opposite way round. On my Rome Blur I ride 30/12 double positive for carving and on my powder/slush boards 18/-9. 
So this morning I'm taking my slush board out with my carving stance, it's already 8C.


----------



## MrDavey2Shoes

Interesting that the "hybrid zone" boards have "hybrid camber" lol...

I think most camrock boards will behave similarly to the "intro surfer" boards you mentioned. I like that you categorize Korua outside of snow surfing, because they are not snow surf style boards - as often as they are mistaken to be.


----------



## WigMar

I like that you broke snowsurfing down to grade and speed, flow and back foot driven. I've been wondering about higher speed carving, and how that differs from snowsurfing. Maybe it's like big wave surfing vs. riding regular waves. Big waves, big turns; little waves, quicker cut back turns.


----------



## Scalpelman

Definitely bigger lines for speed. That’s why I went with longer sidecut and effective edge. But also more on the front foot. Need to balance the forces along the edge. Interested to see how you like the pentaquark.


----------



## kimchijajonshim

MrDavey2Shoes said:


> Interesting that the "hybrid zone" boards have "hybrid camber" lol...
> 
> I think most camrock boards will behave similarly to the "intro surfer" boards you mentioned. I like that you categorize Korua outside of snow surfing, because they are not snow surf style boards - as often as they are mistaken to be.


Disagree, shape IMO is a much bigger influence. Flight Attendant and Cadet both have camber with early rise rocker, but Flight Attendant is very much more in the all-mountain freeride camp rather than anything close to snowsurf. All the Mosses I have are also camber with an early rise nose. Much more to it than just the camber profile.

I’ve haven’t ridden a ton of cam rock boards (couple Jones and Yes boards) but they didn’t feel especially flowy or rear-foot driven.


----------



## Snowdaddy

WigMar said:


> Yeah, many of the boards I buy I can't really find many reviews on. I go by the specs, which tell a lot about how something will probably feel. There was pretty much nothing out about Signal's Tailgunner when I bought that. I just ordered an Amplid Pentaquark sight unseen and fairly unreviewed as well.
> 
> That party wave looks sick! it was definitely on my radar, but I went with a slush slasher to try a larger sidecut. Still interested in that 3BT as well.


I'd love to try the Pentaquark but like the Unw8 I'm worried it's just going to be too stiff for me to enjoy. I bought the Nidecker Tracer instead.


----------



## WigMar

The Pentaquark's stiffness rating gave me a little pause. I'm over the weight limit by 5 kg, so hopefully it won't be that bad. They just had a price drop on the 17/18 stock on their outlet site, and I couldn't help myself. I'll report back as soon as I get some time on her. 

How's that tracer? Nidecker seems to have carving dialed from what I hear.


----------



## Snowdaddy

I haven't had time to ride it. In about two weeks I'll be testing it.


----------



## MrDavey2Shoes

kimchijajonshim said:


> Disagree, shape IMO is a much bigger influence. Flight Attendant and Cadet both have camber with early rise rocker, but Flight Attendant is very much more in the all-mountain freeride camp rather than anything close to snowsurf. All the Mosses I have are also camber with an early rise nose. Much more to it than just the camber profile.
> 
> I’ve haven’t ridden a ton of cam rock boards (couple Jones and Yes boards) but they didn’t feel especially flowy or rear-foot driven.


Woa there guy don’t go calling every rectangle a square!

@Snowdaddy but we want to know now! The people want to know!


----------



## Yeahti87

MrDavey2Shoes said:


> Woa there guy don’t go calling every rectangle a square!
> 
> @Snowdaddy but we want to know now! The people want to know!


Angry has already reviewed the Tracer (Angry VIP). He speaks highly of it.

I’ve advised the Tracer to one of my friends and he’s got a cheap test model. Luckily he is also goofy so I’ll ride it in 1-2 weeks.


----------



## ridethecliche

MrDavey2Shoes said:


> I’m 175 size 8 boots - I like my party platter 147. I think it’s my daily when I don’t want to charge. But I usually want to charge so nevermind.
> 
> It’s really great for “surfing” so long as you’re careful not to overpower it. It’s best at moderate or “party” speed. I was looking at the party wave but the PP seemed like a better all rounder. Probably not as good in pow unless I set it back though. Super fun board!


How tall are you? I honestly might have to come hang out with you at a local spot soon so we can just try each others boards lol. I'm 5'10, 175, and also size 8 boot.


----------



## MrDavey2Shoes

ridethecliche said:


> How tall are you? I honestly might have to come hang out with you at a local spot soon so we can just try each others boards lol. I'm 5'10, 175, and also size 8 boot.


Lol yea me too, same specs. I’m down to do some laps some time!


----------



## Paxford

Y’all should listen very closely to what Kim has to say. I know you don’t believe me, perhaps you’ll believe him. This isn’t about proving who is right or wrong. I was legitimately trying to share something with you that is real but you are having a hard time grasping. This is about the boards and how they work snowsurfing, that’s it.


----------



## Paxford

You can lead a horse to water ...


----------



## Snowdaddy

Yeahti87 said:


> Angry has already reviewed the Tracer (Angry VIP). He speaks highly of it.
> 
> I’ve advised the Tracer to one of my friends and he’s got a cheap test model. Luckily he is also goofy so I’ll ride it in 1-2 weeks.


There are reviews of the Tracer on Whitelines and Gearscore.


----------



## Paxford

Per Gentemsticks-

_When riding in powder on traditional cambered boards, the nose drags snow due to its own camber system and eventually would sink into snow. To prevent it from nosediving, the rider is forced to lean back and turn only with the tail. This phenomena also happen in three dimensional terrain. Like when making a non-gravity turn at the top of a wall, the traditional camber turns convex “against” the terrain, forcing the edge and the rail to go in a different direction than the targeted line. Once again, the rider is forced to lean back or turn using the edge, restricting the freedom of riding. 

This restriction is silly to have on boards for complex terrain. This camber system came from the skiing know-how. We’ve adopted it and refined it to match our flat camber system in order to allow freer maneuverability in complex three-dimensional terrain. The weightless sensation when making a top-turn, and resistance-free riding, especially late in a turn, are the distinct characteristics of our flat camber system._


----------



## WigMar

They're talking about flat to rocker, right? There's no denying that many party boards are flat to rocker. The profile feels good for carving and slashing both. I'm into it.


----------



## MrDavey2Shoes

Per marketing ad copy:


----------



## ridethecliche

Is that even really an issue with RCR boards? Most camber boards have some rocker in the tip and tail.


----------



## MrDavey2Shoes

Trolling aside, obviously certain profiles are better at certain things than others. But saying you need flat to rocker to surf is the same as saying you can’t ride pow on a full camber deck. Watch me  

lol


----------



## 16gkid

Paxford said:


> Per Gentemsticks-
> 
> _When riding in powder on traditional cambered boards, the nose drags snow due to its own camber system and eventually would sink into snow. To prevent it from nosediving, the rider is forced to lean back and turn only with the tail. This phenomena also happen in three dimensional terrain. Like when making a non-gravity turn at the top of a wall, the traditional camber turns convex “against” the terrain, forcing the edge and the rail to go in a different direction than the targeted line. Once again, the rider is forced to lean back or turn using the edge, restricting the freedom of riding.
> 
> This restriction is silly to have on boards for complex terrain. This camber system came from the skiing know-how. We’ve adopted it and refined it to match our flat camber system in order to allow freer maneuverability in complex three-dimensional terrain. The weightless sensation when making a top-turn, and resistance-free riding, especially late in a turn, are the distinct characteristics of our flat camber system._


I imagine whoever wrote that was wearing a fedora lol, also thats why setback/s-camber exist.


----------



## Paxford

MrDavey2Shoes said:


> Per marketing ad copy:


Correct, it is marketing. Is it true or false?


----------



## Jkb818

This is the perfect board


----------



## Paxford

WigMar said:


> They're talking about flat to rocker, right? There's no denying that many party boards are flat to rocker. The profile feels good for carving and slashing both. I'm into it.


Yes, in that quote they are but there is more they've done since then design wise. They (aka gentem, Taro Tamai or TT) have a flat to rocker and also accel camber which is mild camber to early rise rocker and lots of it. They started out with a vision to make a board that doesn't ride like shit for their surf style, like most western boards do for one reason or another in how they are designed. TT's goal is a board that surfs. This is hull design primarily, but then considering the fact that snow is hard compared to water. Boards that surf move through space efficiently, no drag inducing design choices are selected unless they provide a clear benefit to surfing on a snowboard. An example of a drag inducing choice they'd go with would be a tail shape that does create drag but also a point to catch and release. Or setting the rider back which focuses weight onto a smaller area of board and frees up the nose to ride up and over or a pointy nose to split through the terrain like a speedboat through water. You'll glide better centered on a board, but you won't turn as efficiently, so a certain amount of setback is going in the right direction to achieve surf centered design. He ignored typical concerns about switch, butter, press, air's, and other tricks developed and promoted so heavily in western style riding. He just wanted the board to work right from a surfing perspective (Biesty's perspective). Makes sense to me!

I see that design progression as starting with rocker because that should give you the least resistance going straight, but rocker doesn't hold an edge efficiently, so then flat to rocker with a good shape (nose, sidecut, tail). It's the "good shape" part I am still exploring for myself, I am settled on either flat or slight camber, but no rocker boards or heavy camber unless I want to ride western snowboard style or the terrain dictates that I need it. TT found that whoa ... my board design surfs right and we can now do the maneuvers we do on waves more safely on 3D terrain without having camber slam in to shit and throw us off our game.

But they lost the springy pop we all love from loading/unloading camber. Some camber does have surf centered groomer benefits in initiating turns and with edge hold as we press it and it locks in. This camber is needed moreso on heavily tapered decks where the rear wants to wash on steeps, so I think they then came up with accel camber which is a compromise back towards the "all-mountain" spectrum Kim so aptly described. But when I say they "came up with accel camber" I would hope they didn't just slap accel-camber on to the flat to rocker deck they started with. Any good shaper knows if you change one parameter it will impact another, so those other parameters may require adjustment. TT would have likely considered setback, taper, 3D nose and tail, you name it and made sure these all play well together so the board still surfs well. 

What I know they did is coupled the camber with early rise that increases as the camber is pressed flat, and that early rise should make the front contacts more forgiving in rad maneuvers. They found their sweet spot for their terrain for certain riders that just want the camber, or certain riders that don't have the skills to hold an edge with a flat to rocker setup. And some riders might be focusing on 3D terrain more and are pushing their game there (like me) so flat to rocker may be a better choice overall.

This is personal choice here and what Kim was talking about when he explained his journey to find the right board for him that has snowsurf qualities but also typical all-mountain qualities to keep him safe in gnarlier stuff he rides. I don't ride that gnarly of terrain so I can roll a straight snowsurf deck and not be limited by it (unless it's pure ice). So I'm building up my snowsurf specific quiver, because in that category there is variation too, like flat vs slight camber, how setback I want to be, maybe I want to just pick up a board from Matt Biolos (I believe he also gets it like TT) with magnetraction for ice days, or maybe I just want more effective edge like the Overboard and that'll get me by on pure ice. What I don't want is to listen to western marketing claiming "surfy" on mountain twins and make a bad purchase decisoin. I'll believe Japan Snowsurf marketing when I see the boards surf like TT's do. Hoping to find some western boards that are ACTUALLY designed to snowsurf inline with the approach TT took.


----------



## Paxford

ridethecliche said:


> Is that even really an issue with RCR boards? Most camber boards have some rocker in the tip and tail.


Don't know, haven't tried one. Are there highly setback RCR boards?

Most camber boards do have some rocker in the tip and tail, the question is how much is enough or not enough to have minimal impact on the boards flow (aka surf) across that terrain. I "can" ride a big stiff twin with traditional camber in 3D terrain, but it's limiting my shred. Try going 25+ mph directly in to a wall with it, see how it feels when you hit the wall, and see how it feels when you rotate it off the lip in a tight radius turn. It's not good for it. My fish does it much better.


----------



## WigMar

That accel camber sounds like a branding name for s-camber. Look at my s-camber tailgunner and tell me it's not speced out for snowsurfing. If it's not, it sure rides like it is. 

I've been building a quiver around how I like to ride, which happens to be largely in the snowsurf style. I've noticed that I have to match the board up to the mountain I'm riding, who I'm riding with, and the conditions. Sometimes I prefer flat to camber, sometimes some s-camber. 

It's a good thing to have some camber underfoot. I hate magnetration. Give me some camber over that any day. With s-camber, there's camber and it's associated grip and power underfoot, with an early rise nose starting before the front contact point. It's the best of both worlds. Ride up to a wall, and it's all good. And there's grip and pop up there too.


----------



## bazman

Latest Toy vid is super impressive. More buttery than snowsurf but well worth a watch


----------



## Jkb818

@Paxford whats TT?


----------



## Rip154

The heritage and philosophy behind it is a japanese culture thing, but I feel it really helps snowboarding, it's good storytelling. Surfing is the lifestyle ideal for most people, even if they don't surf. In powder you can ride pretty much anything, but making a board feel smooth on harder surfaces is where the magic happens. I don't believe in this western vs eastern style thing. East of freestyle park and haven't learned to turn? And west of what?


----------



## ridethecliche

Paxford said:


> Don't know, haven't tried one. Are there highly setback RCR boards?
> 
> Most camber boards do have some rocker in the tip and tail, the question is how much is enough or not enough to have minimal impact on the boards flow (aka surf) across that terrain. I "can" ride a big stiff twin with traditional camber in 3D terrain, but it's limiting my shred. Try going 25+ mph directly in to a wall with it, see how it feels when you hit the wall, and see how it feels when you rotate it off the lip in a tight radius turn. It's not good for it. My fish does it much better.



Any RCR directional twins will have a fair amount of setback for that style. 

More pure directional boards will have S camber like the tailgunner mentioned here.


----------



## lbs123

bazman said:


> Latest Toy vid is super impressive. More buttery than snowsurf but well worth a watch


Funny, never been a fan of Toy's buttering videos, doesn't look that stylish to me as their carving. Although, this one is still a better one. For some chill Japanese freestyle I prefer Dragon TV (Enchanted lines, etc.).


----------



## Left-Moment

Stupid question but are the likes of the warpig and party platter snowsurf boards or are they something else?


----------



## MrDavey2Shoes

@Paxford I answered that already, just above lol


----------



## Paxford

WigMar said:


> That accel camber sounds like a branding name for s-camber. Look at my s-camber tailgunner and tell me it's not speced out for snowsurfing. If it's not, it sure rides like it is.
> 
> I've been building a quiver around how I like to ride, which happens to be largely in the snowsurf style. I've noticed that I have to match the board up to the mountain I'm riding, who I'm riding with, and the conditions. Sometimes I prefer flat to camber, sometimes some s-camber.
> 
> It's a good thing to have some camber underfoot. I hate magnetration. Give me some camber over that any day. With s-camber, there's camber and it's associated grip and power underfoot, with an early rise nose starting before the front contact point. It's the best of both worlds. Ride up to a wall, and it's all good. And there's grip and pop up there too.


I think your Tailgunner is on the spectrum of snowsurf decks for sure now that you've brought it up in this thread, I really do trust your opinion over many here Wigmar. Your boards are often ones I've spec'd and thought they would work for me but all this surfy marketing gets confusing so I am asking myself which is really designed to surf well? and which is surfy BS?

I've been thinking S-Camber might work properly because the camber is over the backfoot and the rest of the deck is fairly flat to rocker so you can swing/steer it catch free, but I haven't tried S-Camber myself so thanks for the endorsement. You do realize you did a review of this board using BA's format discussing things like butter, press, pop, air, carve, etc. and didn't mention once that it is a snowsurf deck. That isn't your problem, that's snowboarding at-large's problem. Western marketing, western reviews, etc. do not think of things in snowsurf terms, it's overshadowed by trick based concerns or gnar freeride bombing or powder specific talk. Reviews, including Biesty's, are centered around this freestyle focused format. It creates mass confusion for a person like me trying to identify boards that surf well, not surfy western marketing lingo. So I listen very closely to Biesty to say this one feels like a surfboard and then I know it's not just labeling a board surfy because it's got a graphic on it and the tail washes out.


----------



## Paxford

ridethecliche said:


> Any RCR directional twins will have a fair amount of setback for that style.
> 
> More pure directional boards will have S camber like the tailgunner mentioned here.


Doubt I'd like an RCR then. Surfing is pure directional. Snowsurfing is too, but there is a spectrum there because of things you can do on a mountain besides surf it. Like riding switch, buttering and pressing which is easier on an RCR directional twin, so some folks ride twins and they definitely can still pull off that snowsurf style of riding, but those boards are not ideal for it. They are a compromise to allow for tricks. Personally I just want to surf on snow, no compromises in the decks I put under my feet. Western boards tend to introduce compromises in their design, at least they appear to. So which decks are no-compromise snowsurfs?

Seems like the Tailgunner and SP fit the bill, as do most fish and what we are calling party decks but in that party deck category I think there are some compromises going on.


----------



## ridethecliche

Paxford said:


> Doubt I'd like an RCR then. Surfing is pure directional. Snowsurfing is too, but there is a spectrum there because of things you can do on a mountain besides surf it. Like riding switch, buttering and pressing which is easier on an RCR directional twin, so some folks ride twins and they definitely can still pull off that snowsurf style of riding, but those boards are not ideal for it. They are a compromise to allow for tricks. Personally I just want to surf on snow, no compromises in the decks I put under my feet. Western boards tend to introduce compromises in their design, at least they appear to. So which decks are no-compromise snowsurfs?
> 
> Seems like the Tailgunner and SP fit the bill, as do most fish and what we are calling party decks but in that party deck category I think there are some compromises going on.


I like RCR on an all mountain deck. I love s-camber on my yup and I've really enjoyed it in the snow. The yup is different than the tailgunner in that it's more of a carving focused deck but I find myself picking that over my more aggressive all mountain board even without fresh snow because I just want to ride in a more flowy fashion and don't really care to charge all that much. 

I will say that there are directional twins with a directional flex. These are likely going to be more your speed if you're looking for a twin deck. They can be ridden switch, but the profile is set up to ride in one direction. Softer nose etc. They're just a twin shape so you can do a few tricks on them and ride switch should you want to, but that's not the primary purpose.




Left-Moment said:


> Stupid question but are the likes of the warpig and party platter snowsurf boards or are they something else?


I think these boards are more along the lines of the 'next generation' of quiver killers so to speak. The short-fat profiles lend them to being a bit better in powder than traditional all mountain decks. I think the party platter would be more on the surfy end than the pig, but again that's not the primary purpose. It's built more like an all mountain park board if that makes sense.

Watch the K2 japan video someone posted earlier (maybe in this thread?) and see what the riders there are using it for relative to the more snowsurf oriented decks. It's on my short list of boards to try for sure.


----------



## Paxford

ridethecliche said:


> The yup is different than the tailgunner in that it's more of a carving focused deck but I find myself picking that over my more aggressive all mountain board even without fresh snow because I just want to ride in a more flowy fashion and don't really care to charge all that much.


Its that difference you've pointed out, wanting to ride in a more flowy fashion, that leads you back to the Yup over an aggressive all-mountain deck. Someone else might not find the Yup snowsurfy enough and want the Tailgunner. I want the same feeling (flowy drawing artful lines using structure from point a to point b on edge 99% of your riding) but that is pretty much all I want. I don't need switch-ability on board, no need to carry that rounded tail around behind me as I ride forward if another tail will work better, no need to give up the setback backfoot carve and go with a more all-mountain centered stance type of carve (unless it gets really steep), no need to land spins backwards, etc. But I totally get it that most snowboarders do need these things because it's part of their repertoire. I want a pure directional board designed to amplify it's ability to surf across 3-D terrain with max glide, flow, and turning *BUT *that design often looks like what we would label a powder board, and I snowsurf everywhere, not just pow. So I focus on pow decks that'll ride groomers and hope they didn't put too much camber on board that'll ruin 3D terrain performance, or at least they compensated for the camber by setting it back a bunch to allow you to lift and swing it out of the way in sharp vertical turns so as not to catch. When they came up with this-

park >> all-mountain >> freeride >> powder

maybe it should have looked more like this ... 

park >> all-mountain >> all-mountain/snowsurf >> freeride/charger >> freeride/snowsurf >> pure snowsurf >> snowsurf/powder >> powder

Because certain boards are designed to surf, and certain boards are designed to do other stuff. Can you surf those boards? Yes, but they aren't the best tool for the job.


----------



## Paxford

Left-Moment said:


> Stupid question but are the likes of the warpig and party platter snowsurf boards or are they something else?


I can snowsurf those, but I wouldn't pick those boards for myself to snowsurf. I have almost zero trick skills. I have mad surf skills. So I focus on boards that are really friendly for surfing only. 

Both those boards are on the snowsurf spectrum, they just aren't surfy enough for me to cough up the dough to buy and test and find out they don't suit me. But I am looking for an ice board that'll surf and I can't say whether or not those might fit the bill.


----------



## Rip154

Well what can you spend, and how wide does the board need to be? That usually narrows it down some. For sure don't get a rocker board with 6m sidecut for ice. I find that stance ranges really limit my selection. Arbor, some K2, some Burton and the japanese brands are good. Older boards are good in many brands, but they are mostly camber of course. Next years K2 Niseko pleasures will be good for sure, the Rossi Sashimi looks interesting. Yes is looking like they will get more into this market. Arbors humps lock in a bit much, but the profile is sweet. I'm guessing Moss, Gentem, TJ, Field, Pogo, Ogasaka was out of the picture?


----------



## kimchijajonshim

Couple smaller brand have popped up on my radar for snowsurf stuff. All are significantly cheaper than the Japanese stuff and likely better suited to gnarlier North American conditions. Haven't jumped on any because they're tough to find in the wild, but they've piqued my interest.

One Western snowsurf brand that's popped up on my radar is Soul Waterman. An acquaintance has been really enjoying his Pitch Wing. Their owner, Corran, is a former pro kayaker and he's been making kayaks and SUPs for a while. My understanding is he used to make boards a long time time, got out, got on a few on a few Moss boards, and was inspired to translate that sort of riding for Westerners.

I'm not really sure what to make of Fulbag. They strike me as kind of a hybrid between Dupraz-style aggressive full-send boards and a more Japanese shaping sensibility. I'm really interested in jumping on a Hammerhead and Blunt Diamond.

Nothing in the Elevated Surfcraft line speaks to me, but I have a few buddies and acquaintances who are big on them.

Snoplanks is out there too. Heard good things about the Asym Fish, one of the few modern asym directionals I've seen out there. Barrel Chaser looks like a lot of fun.



Left-Moment said:


> Stupid question but are the likes of the warpig and party platter snowsurf boards or are they something else?


Kind of a weird hybrid of their own. Definitely surf inspired. That said I've owned the Warpig and a Cool Bean and found them to have their own distinct feels. I also think most short-fats are marketing gimmicks, but maybe I just haven't been a fan of the few I've ridden so far (early impressions on the Wingswallow 149 are good, though).


----------



## Rip154

That Soul brand doesn't look like they have their head in the game yet.. The will is there for sure.


----------



## Yeahti87

Rossi Sashimi (152 so undersized) and Niche Pyre (155) are the two most surfy boards I’ve been on.


----------



## MrDavey2Shoes

Left-Moment said:


> Stupid question but are the likes of the warpig and party platter snowsurf boards or are they something else?


I spent the last three days “snow surfing” on my PP - had a blast. Great all rounder, but it has a speed limit for really hard carves.

I wouldn’t call it a snow surfer do to the versatility of it, but it works very well for that Japanese style flow.


----------



## Left-Moment

Thanks for the feedback on whether a warpig or party platter are surfers. I'm actually nervous about surfing on snow as it's taken me years to get good form and not be too back leggy and would hate for that to come through again. That said, it's all about fun and so if a surfer type board is that then why not? I'm interested in a pig as potential happy medium.


----------



## kimchijajonshim

Left-Moment said:


> Thanks for the feedback on whether a warpig or party platter are surfers. I'm actually nervous about surfing on snow as it's taken me years to get good form and not be too back leggy and would hate for that to come through again. That said, it's all about fun and so if a surfer type board is that then why not? I'm interested in a pig as potential happy medium.


"Back leggy" on snow surf boards is different from sticking the rear of effective edge out to skid turn... more like you're driving the edge off the area in front of your back foot.


----------



## Left-Moment

kimchijajonshim said:


> "Back leggy" on snow surf boards is different from sticking the rear of effecticr edge out to skid turn... more like you're driving the edge off the area in front of your back foot.


Interesting, I think I understand what you're saying. I'm not a skidder anymore as I'm quite experienced but I hate when I see people with poor form using their back leg all the time and wouldn't want to do that, sounds like that isn't the case though.


----------



## WigMar

Scroll back through this thread, there's been a bunch of good videos that illustrate what we mean by snowsurfing. I probably wouldn't choose a pig for this style, but I've seen a Toy films where they're snowsurfing on pigs with lots of butters and spins added in. Might be good for a hybrid snowsurf freestyle board.


----------



## Left-Moment

WigMar said:


> Scroll back through this thread, there's been a bunch of good videos that illustrate what we mean by snowsurfing. I probably wouldn't choose a pig for this style, but I've seen a Toy films where they're snowsurfing on pigs with lots of butters and spins added in. Might be good for a hybrid snowsurf freestyle board.


Thanks I did look but to me the toy films just looked like carving with extra playfulness. Maybe I don't get it.


----------



## WigMar

I was just checking out Amplid, who's been off my radar for whatever reason. Their Aloha Vibes and the Surfari both look promising for anyone looking for a s-camber surfer. The Surfari might be a little freeride oriented. I just ordered a Pentaquark for high speed carving. I'm wondering how much the full camber will affect it's surfyness.


----------



## WigMar

Are any of you into pow surfing? Guys are riding boards without bindings, and it forces them to pump with the terrain, and ride it like a surfboard more or risk loosing footing contact with the board. Pow Surf Colorado Yo Amagai Free Foot Research

I've been making a plywood one in the shop, but can't seem to get motivated to work on it during such a dry snowboarding season. Ideally, I was looking to make a split version to keep me in the low angle pow and out of avy danger. 

With this in mind, I got the loosest surfy bindings I could find at the start of this season- K2 Lineup. They're on a surfy tripod of supports that lets the frame have lateral flex. On top of that, the highbacks are so soft I can fold them backwards with one hand. I've had these on my snowsurf decks all season, and I've come to really like them. They're rad in powder and the trees. For carving, they forced me to stack my weight properly. You can't rely on that highback to drive force into the turn. There's more freedom to get weight fore or aft on the sidecut. I feel more free on the loose cutbacks and slashes. Do you guys ride stiff or soft bindings when snowsurfing?


----------



## MrDavey2Shoes

@WigMar med/stiff for me no matter how I’m riding. I had some Union Stratas last season and I couldn’t jive with how much movement there was. It made me overtighten the straps. I wish I enjoyed it more...
I like that the Rome katanas allow for pretty decent fore/aft movement while keeping me locked in for edge to edge movements.


----------



## kieloa

Left-Moment said:


> Thanks I did look but to me the toy films just looked like carving with extra playfulness. Maybe I don't get it.


Kazushi Yamauchi
This is all you need


----------



## 16gkid

Im surprised Nitro hasnt gotten any mentions in here, they have some sweet directional boards like the POW, Squash, Cannon, Fintwin, Banker, and the Fusion, I think all of them are camber. my best day of snowboarding was probably on my Nuat doing a snowcat day in Grand Targhee,out of 6 snowboarders on the cat, i think 4 of us had nitro quiver boards, softer flex with an unsinkable shape, its a shame I dont put enough days on the Nuat. Evo has a bunch of nitro boards for sale right now too, im thinking about grabbing the 154 POW just to try it.


----------



## kimchijajonshim

WigMar said:


> Are any of you into pow surfing? Guys are riding boards without bindings, and it forces them to pump with the terrain, and ride it like a surfboard more or risk loosing footing contact with the board. Pow Surf Colorado Yo Amagai Free Foot Research
> 
> I've been making a plywood one in the shop, but can't seem to get motivated to work on it during such a dry snowboarding season. Ideally, I was looking to make a split version to keep me in the low angle pow and out of avy danger.
> 
> With this in mind, I got the loosest surfy bindings I could find at the start of this season- K2 Lineup. They're on a surfy tripod of supports that lets the frame have lateral flex. On top of that, the highbacks are so soft I can fold them backwards with one hand. I've had these on my snowsurf decks all season, and I've come to really like them. They're rad in powder and the trees. For carving, they forced me to stack my weight properly. You can't rely on that highback to drive force into the turn. There's more freedom to get weight fore or aft on the sidecut. I feel more free on the loose cutbacks and slashes. Do you guys ride stiff or soft bindings when snowsurfing?


I ride medium (NOW Pilot, sometimes Drive on burlier boards like the Dupraz-- I generally run the softer bushings). My shop guy buddy who is like my snowsurf sensei advocates soft-medium though, specifically for the ability to play with sidecut aft-fore you mentioned. With stiffer bindings you tend to get power but lose nuance. 

Haven't pow surfed before. Might pick one up if I can find one cheap or trade something in my quiver for one. Hard to justify dropping a few hundred on one new when I don't live in the mountains and can't just roll into my backyard. They feel like a great tool for wind hold days with heavy snow when backcountry is on red alert. Or times you're stuck on the highway for a few hours in the mountains.


----------



## Paxford

Rip154 said:


> Well what can you spend, and how wide does the board need to be? That usually narrows it down some. For sure don't get a rocker board with 6m sidecut for ice. I find that stance ranges really limit my selection. Arbor, some K2, some Burton and the japanese brands are good. Older boards are good in many brands, but they are mostly camber of course. Next years K2 Niseko pleasures will be good for sure, the Rossi Sashimi looks interesting. Yes is looking like they will get more into this market. Arbors humps lock in a bit much, but the profile is sweet. I'm guessing Moss, Gentem, TJ, Field, Pogo, Ogasaka was out of the picture?


~$750 out the door for two decks during the off-season sales. I'm a difficult fit. Size 12.5 on large Now Drives. How wide is variable, I used to say nothing below 270 mm waist but that is so limited that I am willing to drop down to the low 260's if the shape is right otherwise. Stance ranges severly limit my choices, I prefer a very narrow stance but I'm ~190-200 lbs so most decks that accomodate my weight do not have narrow enough stance.

On the Japan decks I've found the right size but not the right flex since my understanding is they are designed for smaller riders. Then there is the cost to consider, so they are pretty much out. I am already babying an expensive board (Asym Fish), I need a less expensive beater board for SoCal ice and slush. We don't get much snow so coverage sucks.


----------



## ridethecliche

Left-Moment said:


> Thanks for the feedback on whether a warpig or party platter are surfers. I'm actually nervous about surfing on snow as it's taken me years to get good form and not be too back leggy and would hate for that to come through again. That said, it's all about fun and so if a surfer type board is that then why not? I'm interested in a pig as potential happy medium.


When you get 'back leggy' on an S-camber board, you're basically engaging and loading the camber zone underneath the back foot. This drives the board and engages better with the terrain. Getting on the back foot here actually allows you to rail a bit harder. More weight forward means you're more on the rocker section and floating around.

That's a gross over simplification of it since this is all dynamic, but when I feel like I'm starting to lose grip while turning, getting on the back foot really helps engage the edge. I think camber in the back actually can make skidded turns harder because you're more likely to catch an edge.


----------



## Paxford

S-camber in theory is a good ice board for snowsurf, because taper becomes more of a problem causing the tail to wash. Figure you throw some S-camber in that area to lock it in better. Or I just need to sharpen my damn edges more often!


----------



## Paxford

WigMar said:


> Are any of you into pow surfing? Guys are riding boards without bindings, and it forces them to pump with the terrain, and ride it like a surfboard more or risk loosing footing contact with the board. Pow Surf Colorado Yo Amagai Free Foot Research
> 
> I've been making a plywood one in the shop, but can't seem to get motivated to work on it during such a dry snowboarding season. Ideally, I was looking to make a split version to keep me in the low angle pow and out of avy danger.
> 
> With this in mind, I got the loosest surfy bindings I could find at the start of this season- K2 Lineup. They're on a surfy tripod of supports that lets the frame have lateral flex. On top of that, the highbacks are so soft I can fold them backwards with one hand. I've had these on my snowsurf decks all season, and I've come to really like them. They're rad in powder and the trees. For carving, they forced me to stack my weight properly. You can't rely on that highback to drive force into the turn. There's more freedom to get weight fore or aft on the sidecut. I feel more free on the loose cutbacks and slashes. Do you guys ride stiff or soft bindings when snowsurfing?


EXCELLENT QUESTION. My answer defies conventional wisdom. 

I’m in 12.5 Salomon dialogues (mid flex) and Now Drives size large. Skate tech for smooth turn initiation and response, soft bushings to keep it loose feeling underfoot but not on edge, hanger 2.0 to give me just a little more wiggle room, and ... wait for it ... no high back on the back foot. 

Alright haters have at me.

I don’t always ride with no high back, but when I do it’s something special. You’ll find out if your driving the board or the boards driving you right quick. In general it’s a lot more work because you need perfect edge control heelside. Now when I put the high back on the rear I feel like a lazy cheater, which is just fine by me some days.

No high back works for me in all conditions, not just pow. I’m liking this stiff responsive binding that I’ve toned down to suit the style and give me range of motion. Elevated SurfCraft owner rides karakorams no high back on the rear foot, he gave me the idea. 

I’ll probably go with K2 TT boots next time if the fit is good.


----------



## Rip154

I haven't tried em, but the fullbag blunt and supernaut has probably been mentioned? Preferably sidecut should be a little past 8 with boards like that, but depends on the board too.


----------



## kimchijajonshim

Rode my Moss Swallow 62 in pretty firm conditions (Tahoe firm, probably East Coast decent lol) for few runs today at Squaw. Wasn't feeling it. Thought it might do well because of long EE, but I felt really washy in the tail because of the taper and felt a split fraction of second turn initiation delay because of the rocker. I could grip better but amping up the speed, but overall too firm for me to comfortably commit to rear foot steering. It was rideable and I would have made it work if it was my only board, but I went to the car to swap. 

Switched to the Rome Blur (basically full camber, slightest bit of rocker at the tips) and had a much better day. Felt way more comfortable with that power and stability behind the rear foot.


----------



## WigMar

I really wanted to try a fullbag, but they've been sold out of my size of everything for ever. I almost bought a hammerhead over the summer, just out of curiosity. 


Rip154 said:


> I haven't tried em, but the fullbag blunt and supernaut has probably been mentioned? Preferably sidecut should be a little past 8 with boards like that, but depends on the board too.


----------



## WigMar

Paxford said:


> EXCELLENT QUESTION. My answer defies conventional wisdom.
> 
> I’m in 12.5 Salomon dialogues (mid flex) and Now Drives size large. Skate tech for smooth turn initiation and response, soft bushings to keep it loose feeling underfoot but not on edge, hanger 2.0 to give me just a little more wiggle room, and ... wait for it ... no high back on the back foot.
> 
> Alright haters have at me.
> 
> I don’t always ride with no high back, but when I do it’s something special. You’ll find out if your driving the board or the boards driving you right quick. In general it’s a lot more work because you need perfect edge control heelside. Now when I put the high back on the rear I feel like a lazy cheater, which is just fine by me some days.
> 
> No high back works for me in all conditions, not just pow. I’m liking this stiff responsive binding that I’ve toned down to suit the style and give me range of motion. Elevated SurfCraft owner rides karakorams no high back on the rear foot, he gave me the idea.
> 
> I’ll probably go with K2 TT boots next time if the fit is good.


I had a feeling you were up to something next level! I saw someone riding without a rear highback in a thread a few years ago and had to try it. I've only tried no rear highback once, and I would have had to cut the highback off at the heelcup to retain a fitted heelcup. The space without it was way too massive. I'll take a look at Now bindings if you can take the highbacks on and off like that. I'm into it. A chair lift recently broke the top of one of my stiffer highbacks... maybe I'll cut it off at the heelcup and have two pairs of surfy bindings.


----------



## ridethecliche

Few things that may be of interest to this thread.

1) Burton Freedback








Burton Freedback | Burton.com Winter 2019


Shop the Burton Freedback along with more snowboard tools and accessories from Winter 2019




www.burton.com





2) Burton Backseat driver








Burton Family Tree Backseat Driver Snowboard | Burton.com Winter 2019


Burton Family Tree Backseat Driver Snowboard along with more all mountain, park and powder snowboards from Winter 2019




www.burton.com


----------



## kimchijajonshim

I have a freedback set in my spare box. Picked it up cheap... may never use it. Don’t think I’m a Burton binder guy any more. Just picked up some Tool-less kingpin sets so I can just use my 2 NOW bindings across the quiver.

I have NOW low backs which are similar, but better designed since the now heel cup is designed to sit flush against the boot. I’ve ridden both no back and low back on NOWs and it’s fun. After experimenting with them I only really use low back on back binding in pow or predictably good snow conditions. I think it was really helpful getting me to stack my weight heelside properly rather than just relying on my high backs.


----------



## sh00gs

this is a pretty cool documentary on bindinglless pow surfing


----------



## Paxford

WigMar said:


> I had a feeling you were up to something next level! I saw someone riding without a rear highback in a thread a few years ago and had to try it. I've only tried no rear highback once, and I would have had to cut the highback off at the heelcup to retain a fitted heelcup. The space without it was way too massive. I'll take a look at Now bindings if you can take the highbacks on and off like that. I'm into it. A chair lift recently broke the top of one of my stiffer highbacks... maybe I'll cut it off at the heelcup and have two pairs of surfy bindings.


Now/Nidecker sells a no-back cup. So let me walk my claim back just a little, I didn’t just remove the high back and roll out. The no-back cup is maybe an inch high off the hanger. It fills the gap when the high back is removed so your boot still fits snug. When I couldn’t find an online retailer or brick and mortar I contacted customer support and they shipped it out same day for $35 for a set.

There’s an angry discussion on this topic. The tech talk is good, but they missed the elephant in the room, focusing on skate and not realizing that snowboarding can be better with these if your into surfing your boards.







High Backs, Low Backs, and No Backs | The Angry Snowboarder


A snowboarding website that will probably offend you.




www.angrysnowboarder.com


----------



## Paxford

And I just caught Kim’s comment above on the low-back (or is it no-back). No disagreement here, we are using the same very short back from Now, whatever it’s called.

I used it first on groomers and side banks in crappy snow, then pow, then removed and am debating about going back to it. It’s really a flavor of the day thing for me (how hard I will ride that day and in what style) but that could change, I’m still testing.


----------



## Paxford

All this confuses me, and I have them and know how they work. I imagine those that don’t are lost. Let’s cut through it. Check out Now’s product in question at about 2 minutes in-


----------



## Rip154

Been doing the no highback on back binding for a few years, with the Burton Freedback. It got quite a trend in powder at least when the Switchback bindings arrived. They have toolless change of highback and highcup/noback or whatever, so you can easily adjust it for whatever riding you do, just step out of the back and swap it, put the other part in your pocket or pack.

The real benefit is that you learn to put pressure on your front foot when turning heelside, and since you don't have it on the back foot, you do get all the pressure there. It also allows alot more range of motion on slashes, only stiff boots really stopping you from full on surfing moves.


----------



## kimchijajonshim

Honestly I've ridden NOW boards straight up no highbacks and they're rideable like that too as long are youre sized right and secure in the basetray. I prefer having a smidge more support, but they were fun to play around with like that.


----------



## kimchijajonshim

kimchijajonshim said:


> Rode my Moss Swallow 62 in pretty firm conditions (Tahoe firm, probably East Coast decent lol) for few runs today at Squaw. Wasn't feeling it. Thought it might do well because of long EE, but I felt really washy in the tail because of the taper and felt a split fraction of second turn initiation delay because of the rocker. I could grip better but amping up the speed, but overall too firm for me to comfortably commit to rear foot steering. It was rideable and I would have made it work if it was my only board, but I went to the car to swap.
> 
> Switched to the Rome Blur (basically full camber, slightest bit of rocker at the tips) and had a much better day. Felt way more comfortable with that power and stability behind the rear foot.


Apparently I can only edit so many posts, just wanted to address something here. Apparently despite riding various NOWS for like 5 years I somehow never noticed their binding discs are slightly offset of center. So I was set up a bit more toe biased on my front foot than back. 

Rode the Swallow today with them lined up properly and felt a lot more comfortable in the firm conditions. Still more confident on the Blur, but felt much more confident going full send on the Swallow. 

I've had random days over the past several years where I felt completely off... So I have a feeling this isn't the first time I've done this lol.


----------



## sh00gs

So interested in your wing swallow @kimchijajonshim


----------



## Paxford

kimchijajonshim said:


> Apparently I can only edit so many posts, just wanted to address something here. Apparently despite riding various NOWS for like 5 years I somehow never noticed their binding discs are slightly offset of center. So I was set up a bit more toe biased on my front foot than back.
> 
> Rode the Swallow today with them lined up properly and felt a lot more comfortable in the firm conditions. Still more confident on the Blur, but felt much more confident going full send on the Swallow.
> 
> I've had random days over the past several years where I felt completely off... So I have a feeling this isn't the first time I've done this lol.


You may have solved a mystery for me too. I’ll take care next time I remove and reinstall, and redo my boot alignment edge to edge. Usually I just adjust but this takes time and cuts into my progression.


----------



## kimchijajonshim

sh00gs said:


> So interested in your wing swallow @kimchijajonshim


It's a wild board. So maneuverable and way, way more burly than I expected. I took my first couple runs on it at Alpine Meadows today. I wouldn't drop it on the really really steep stuff or go for landspeed records, but I'm amazed how well it holds up getting up into the 40+ mph range. I'm 210 lbs and it's a freaking 149!!!


----------



## Paxford

That’s my type of board, noted!


----------



## Paxford

Holy moly, and it goes as narrow as 18.1 inches on the stance. Sick!


----------



## sh00gs

kimchijajonshim said:


> It's a wild board. So maneuverable and way, way more burly than I expected. I took my first couple runs on it at Alpine Meadows today. I wouldn't drop it on the really really steep stuff or go for landspeed records, but I'm amazed how well it holds up getting up into the 40+ mph range. I'm 210 lbs and it's a freaking 149!!!


love to hear that. Hope it handles what you put into it long term... if not let me know if you wanna move on From it. It’s screaming my name but I can’t answer that call... yet


----------



## del

kimchijajonshim said:


> It's a wild board. So maneuverable and way, way more burly than I expected. I took my first couple runs on it at Alpine Meadows today. I wouldn't drop it on the really really steep stuff or go for landspeed records, but I'm amazed how well it holds up getting up into the 40+ mph range. I'm 210 lbs and it's a freaking 149!!!


sounds like a sweet ride....got me interested, would love to hop on one.


----------



## Jkb818

kimchijajonshim said:


> It's a wild board. So maneuverable and way, way more burly than I expected. I took my first couple runs on it at Alpine Meadows today. I wouldn't drop it on the really really steep stuff or go for landspeed records, but I'm amazed how well it holds up getting up into the 40+ mph range. I'm 210 lbs and it's a freaking 149!!!


What board is it?


----------



## sh00gs

Jkb818 said:


> What board is it?


this is the board I was asking about. 


http://www.mosssnowstick.com/2019-2020/wing-swallow-49


----------



## Jkb818

That’s a sexy deck. $$$


----------



## WigMar

I'd love to try a Moss, but that's a pretty steep price tag. Maybe in a couple of years. A Slush Slasher was much easier to budget for!


----------



## sh00gs

Jkb818 said:


> That’s a sexy deck. $$$


Yeah... it makes my pants fit funny

Probably needs 2 more $.


----------



## kimchijajonshim

I've been lucky to find my Mosses on the secondary market... but generally even there they'll run you $600+. Average MSRP is around $1000-1200. A few of their special edition boards are more like $1500.

Crazy thing is they're not even THAT expensive by a Japanese standard. Some of the Field Earth Design boards run like $1700 USD, and that's with a pretty strong exchange rate.

If folks are ever on the North Shore of Tahoe, Tahoe Sports Hub in Truckee demos Mosses. They also sell off their demo decks now and again.


----------



## Yeahti87

Snowdaddy said:


> I haven't had time to ride it. In about two weeks I'll be testing it.


I rode the Tracer yesterday (only a couple of laps though). It’s a fun carver but be prepared for a softer board. 157 at my 85 kg felt like 5,5 or 6 flex. Easy to butter. Nimble edge to edge, not demanding at all (the owner that just started scarving enjoyed it a lot). A very good grip on a frozen rainy slope.
Felt to me like a relaxed carving board.


----------



## Snowdaddy

Yeahti87 said:


> I rode the Tracer yesterday (only a couple of laps though). It’s a fun carver but be prepared for a softer board. 157 at my 85 kg felt like 5,5 or 6 flex. Easy to butter. Nimble edge to edge, not demanding at all (the owner that just started scarving enjoyed it a lot). A very good grip on a frozen rainy slope.
> Felt to me like a relaxed carving board.


I have the 161 and I’m at 100 kg. Sounds like I might have made the right call in buying it. I was looking for a middle flex board.


----------



## Ole

Snowdaddy said:


> I have the 161 and I’m at 100 kg. Sounds like I might have made the right call in buying it. I was looking for a middle flex board.


Ditto, only I`m 90 kg, hoping it will be playful and quick. Might test it on sunday.


----------



## Paxford

Snow Hound said:


> Talking like a surfer whilst reviewing snowboards but it's the snowboarder viewers who are in the wrong for not understanding because they're not surfers even though they're watching a snowboard review?
> 
> Give it up @Paxford, you're not winning this argument.











Moss Snowstick Performance Quad 60 Snowboard Review


The Moss Performance Quad 60 was one of our favorite rides from Moss mainly because it’s larger size fit our specs so well. Moss is one of the surfiest off the tail rides I’ve ever been on. If you commit … Continued




thegoodride.com





Watch and learn, especially the on the table discussion. 

I rest my case.


----------



## Rip154

Paxford said:


> Moss Snowstick Performance Quad 60 Snowboard Review
> 
> 
> The Moss Performance Quad 60 was one of our favorite rides from Moss mainly because it’s larger size fit our specs so well. Moss is one of the surfiest off the tail rides I’ve ever been on. If you commit … Continued
> 
> 
> 
> 
> thegoodride.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Watch and learn, especially the on the table discussion.
> 
> I rest my case.


It's a good board, but that was painful to watch. Saying surfy 50 times in a video isn't explaining much. If he wants to be the surfguru he should probably take up on that ridingstyle first, and learn some more about snowboard culture beyond the last 10 years.


----------



## spacebird

anything from US or Korua that might fit this category?


----------



## Snowdaddy

spacebird said:


> anything from US or Korua that might fit this category?


In general I would say the Korua boards are more made to hold the radius through the turn. Maybe a little race-like? They have a longer sidecut towards the tail. Maybe the Dart with its cut out swallowtail is more "surfy".


----------



## kimchijajonshim

spacebird said:


> anything from US or Korua that might fit this category?


Can't speak to everything in their respective lines. Can say from experience both US Cadet and Korua Tranny Finder lean have a bit more of a "surfy" rear-foot ride while still having pretty strong overall versatility and all-mountain capabilities. Definitely neither goes all-in like a Moss, but they're somewhere between that and the more traditional boards out on the market.


----------



## Yeahti87

@16gkid How is your Orbit compared to the K2 SP? Have you got more time on it?


----------



## MrDavey2Shoes

That orbit has a wild EE for its length


----------



## Paxford

spacebird said:


> anything from US or Korua that might fit this category?


I looked at this a few weeks ago, but my recollection is the spec on the Korua Apollo is a bit more surfy than the Dart.


----------



## Snowdaddy

Paxford said:


> I looked at this a few weeks ago, but my recollection is the spec on the Korua Apollo is a bit more surfy than the Dart.


I’m thinking that the Dart must have a softer tail and be easier to force into smaller turning radius.

surfier on piste means for me that you can easier change the radius. Maybe.


----------



## Paxford

16gkid said:


> Have you guys tried the K2 simple pleasures yet? Ive been enjoying mine since last season and I think I do the kind of carving you guys are talking about, sweet board and not too expensive.


I almost bought the 156 yesterday. Too small for my rear boot. Wish they made it a little wider.


----------



## WigMar

Paxford said:


> I almost bought the 156 yesterday. Too small for my rear boot. Wish they made it a little wider.


I feel like all that taper is probably a factor of the snowsurf feel. More taper decreases tail grip, right? Is this taper inherent to snowsurfing, or is it a side effect of powder boards working fairly well for snowsurf? It's hard to find a directional board with enough width at the back foot.


----------



## Rip154

Taper makes the tail sink easier ofc, shifts the balance in powder, but also makes the nose stiffer and tail softer. It shifts your body position abit, you don't have to lean over so much and it feels slower to enter turns because of the stiffer nose. At the same time and maybe because of this, powder noses are made relatively softer than the tail. Because the tail is softer, you can change the radius, but this sometimes leads to less grip on the tail because you have to balance on a shorter effective edge. The progressive radius towards the tail fixes the grip issue on hardpack, but doesn't necessarily make it "surfier" in powder. Some cambered no taper powder boards were made with stiffer noses and a medium flex towards the tail, and they had the same issue on hardpack.


----------



## MrDavey2Shoes

@Rip154 that was so tricky to read but made a lot of sense...I’m so tired.


----------



## Paxford

Taper helps engage the pivot point off the back foot. I’d say it’s a feature of snowsurf decks, but not absolutely required. I’m looking at a few decks with no taper. I will be surfing them in the pipe and on ice. I want taper, but I need grip.


----------



## kimchijajonshim

I'm pretty sure everything in the Gentem and Moss lines have at least some taper. Almost everything in the Korua line (everything except the Otto), everything in the Jones Surf series, I believe everything in the United Shapes line has at least a little taper. The only exception I can think of are a couple Elevated Surfcraft models with reverse taper.

The taper jives nicely with the snowsurf style of riding. The easier tail release makes achieving flowy linked turns a lot easier. Having tried to ride the same way on a pretty normal directional twin... the feel is dramatically different.


----------



## Jkb818

Just gonna put this here Marauder
Looks surfy to me!


----------



## 16gkid

So found a brand new k2 overboard for about half off and was intrigued after nivek's review so picked it up, and wow this board carves so good! Seems significantly more damp than the SP, I'm on a 2 week riding trip and can't wait to put more laps on this thing, will try to shoot some footage when I meet up with my carving crew at park city on Friday


----------



## 16gkid

kimchijajonshim said:


> I'm pretty sure everything in the Gentem and Moss lines have at least some taper. Almost everything in the Korua line (everything except the Otto), everything in the Jones Surf series, I believe everything in the United Shapes line has at least a little taper. The only exception I can think of are a couple Elevated Surfcraft models with reverse taper.
> 
> The taper jives nicely with the snowsurf style of riding. The easier tail release makes achieving flowy linked turns a lot easier. Having tried to ride the same way on a pretty normal directional twin... the feel is dramatically different.


I'm with you about the taper, two of the best carving boards I've had both had crazy taper like 40-50mm (sushi and nitro Nuat) it totally changes the feel of turn initiation compared to twinnish boards


----------



## zc1

Went to a Moss info session and they said "You can snowsurf on anything. Our boards just make it easier."


----------



## ksrf

16gkid said:


> So found a brand new k2 overboard for about half off and was intrigued after nivek's review so picked it up, and wow this board carves so good! Seems significantly more damp than the SP, I'm on a 2 week riding trip and can't wait to put more laps on this thing, will try to shoot some footage when I meet up with my carving crew at park city on Friday
> View attachment 152970


I’m riding an overboard this season. Love it. I was a little nervous about the big nose at first. It’s nimble, it carves, goes fast. Zero complaints.


----------



## Paxford

Me too, I’d always prefer taper IF my boot fits on the backfoot. I’ve measured tons of boards and most don’t work. Need 11 inches across at the innermost rear insert. Most boards are about 10 - 10.5 inches there. Directional twins and decks like the Orca get closer to 11 inches across.


----------



## zc1

Paxford said:


> Me too, I’d always prefer taper IF my boot fits on the backfoot. I’ve measured tons of boards and most don’t work. Need 11 inches across at the innermost rear insert. Most boards are about 10 - 10.5 inches there. Directional twins and decks like the Orca get closer to 11 inches across.


Moss Wing Swallow 157. Narrowest point is 11 1/8". Taper of 2.6cm/1"


----------



## Paxford

Damn that is some beautiful information right there ? 

atm I am testing low profile boots to see if I can get away with a narrower, cheaper board (Jones), but the 157 Wing Swallow is on my bucket list.


----------



## 16gkid

Imagine rock shotting a thousand dollar board


----------



## zc1

@Paxford Prior Snowboards Thruster and Legacy as well if you're into the short + fat boards. 149 cm, 28 cm ww, 2.1 cm of taper. I don't have the measurements for the rest of those, though.

@16gkid Yup


----------



## Kijima

For next season I will have these available .
Kijima Taiyaki 8m radius 261 waist zero taper
Kijima Taiyaki 10m radius 288 waist zero taper
Kijima Taiyaki 12m radius 304mm waist zero taper
Kijima Taiyaki 12m radius 322mm waist zero taper


----------



## MrDavey2Shoes

I’m not sold on taper, 2 of my boards have taper and they don’t hang on as well as my non tapered boards on the east coast. They are obviously more surfy though.


----------



## Jkb818

D


MrDavey2Shoes said:


> I’m not sold on taper, 2 of my boards have taper and they don’t hang on as well as my non tapered boards on the east coast. They are obviously more surfy though.


dont blame the taper...just riding the wrong coast ?


----------



## 16gkid

Sounds like user error breh


----------



## Kijima

MrDavey2Shoes said:


> I’m not sold on taper, 2 of my boards have taper and they don’t hang on as well as my non tapered boards on the east coast. They are obviously more surfy though.


I don't like it either. It's like setting up your bindings one to the toe side and one to the heel side. The edge didn't change, only your perception of it.


----------



## Jkb818

Kijima said:


> I don't like it either. It's like setting up your bindings one to the toe side and one to the heel side. The edge didn't change, only your perception of it.


What would be a US brand equivalent to the style of boards you offer?


----------



## Kijima

Jkb818 said:


> What would be a US brand equivalent to the style of boards you offer?


Haha. 
Wait 5 years and see if they copy me


----------



## Paxford

zc1 said:


> @Paxford Prior Snowboards Thruster and Legacy as well if you're into the short + fat boards. 149 cm, 28 cm ww, 2.1 cm of taper. I don't have the measurements for the rest of those, though.


Appreciate it, and that is the eternal debate. Having a big foot leads to short fat, but big foot usually means tall, which contradicts short fat. For example, I really like the sizing on the 157 and 161 Optimistic and Yes. The Y. which are more mid-short fat. Shorter than that I start to worry about it limiting me.


----------



## WigMar

My Slush Slasher 151 is 11.25 inches wide at the back foot. It is a volume shift however. I don't feel limited on it, but it does have more of a speed limit than my Tailgunner or Pentaquark. I'm tall as well- 6'3". I also downsized in boots from 13 to 11.5 to 11. Made a huge difference in booting out.


----------



## Crusty

16gkid said:


> Imagine rock shotting a thousand dollar board


No. I really really don't want to imagine that. That's middle of the night cold sweat type shit right there.


----------



## MrDavey2Shoes

Jkb818 said:


> D
> 
> dont blame the taper...just riding the wrong coast ?


No doubt about that!


----------



## Paxford

@WigMar, It may be that some short fats work for us at 6’3” and some are limiting. I don’t like unintended butters, if that makes sense? 

So perhaps a short fat with enough nose and effective edge forward of the front foot will do. I ride a 166 with early rise and it feels pretty small to me.

Went from 11 to 13 while learning and growing up, it ruined my snowboard life. Now I’m going from 12.5 standard footprint to 12 reduced footprint, but that will be the limit of how small I can go.


----------



## Paxford

Crusty said:


> No. I really really don't want to imagine that. That's middle of the night cold sweat type shit right there.


Like when I found some metal pipe under the pow on day 2 of riding my Asym Fish. Almost cried. It was still worth it to ride that day.


----------



## Crusty

Paxford said:


> Like when I found some metal pipe under the pow on day 2 of riding my Asym Fish. Almost cried. It was still worth it to ride that day.


Oh man. That hurts me to read. Faaahk.


----------



## kimchijajonshim

16gkid said:


> Imagine rock shotting a thousand dollar board


I've done it. Really sucked, but at the same time... tools, not jewels. Thankfully Mosses are mostly all-black bases so they're pretty easy to repair discretely. Bigger concern I have with them is they have thin bases, so you only get so much material to grind.


----------



## jsil

Wake up out of summer hibernation my snowsurf people. I started this thread a couple years ago while looking at a snoplanks asym fish or the elevated surfcraft goldfish, and ended up going with an Amplid Surfari instead. My main riding partner bought an Amplid Millisurf the previous season and it rode better than anything in his quiver of 10+ more traditional American boards (mostly twins and directional twins with camber or some hybrid) that he bought he surfari last season and wouldn't stop raving about it. To be honest, it is THE best board I've ever ridden, but would consider it more of a freeride carver / pow deck. I've never carved at such high speeds at such a comfort level. It can still carve a bit slower but really excels at 30 to 50 mph. I'm completely sold on SCamber as the best all round profile.

Riding that board 30+ days last season made me a MUCH confident and smooth rider. When I jump back on a different board such as my 148cm Warpig, I ride so much better, but I end up missing the edge hold and confidence at speed of the Amplid. I picked up a 2018 amplid Pentaquark because I couldn't say no to $250, but there is a lot of overlap and they both ride very similarly on groomers. I still enjoy it for groomer days and often let friends borrow it so they can keep up with me on the surfari.

So back to my buddy, he has the means and ended up buying a full quiver of amplid boards and retiring his old quiver, but the season ended early and he still hasn't ridden half of them. He's completely (with good reason) drank the koolaid and loves his amplids. Highly recommend anyone to try them.

Back to me, I'm once again looking at snowsurf style boards for next season because I really want to know if I'm missing something. Not going to splash down a G+ so the moss and gentems are out, but really looking hard at a elevated goldfish. I'm 5'9" 155lbs with my feet now crammed into size 8s (sized down from 9 to 8 last season).

I see some people compare the Goldfish to a gentem rocketfish, and I'd love some feedback from some of you guys who have ridden both. I can pick up a goldfish for ~$625 and wonder if it's worth trying. I'm really looking for the closest experience I can get to a gentem/moss for snowsurf style riding so open to suggestions if I'm off base. I do wish it had a black base now. My surfari looks like it's 5 years old after the repairs I've had to do to the white base.

Thanks in advance!


----------



## Snowdaddy

jsil said:


> I moved to the mountains two season ago and bought my first board (after learning to snowboard twenty years ago). I'm looking to get into something with full camber that can rail carves. I've watched a lot of the videos coming out of Japan with their style of riding and it really speaks to me. I enjoy ripping big carves and honestly enjoying playing all over the mountain without just straight-lining and bombing. There's a place for it, but I feel that the magic of the turn is what really gets me. My first step is experimenting with double positive binding angles (never tried them) and seeing how that effects my riding. I do ride a bit of switch, and prefer a board that can at least do it when the need arises (landing switch, easier route through the trees switching over, etc.) I think the perfect board for me would be something that you size down, can still handle speed, can really hold an edge, has a large sidecut that can rail turns, a bigger nose and maybe some early rise to still handle some pow, and can handle a bit of switch riding (buttering/screwing around too). I tend to enjoy shorter wider boards in my limited experience, but I'm not married to them. I don't have enough experience to be sure, but I do know I don't want some super hard charger that is only happy at 50mph.
> 
> Stats:
> 5'9" - 155lbs - 9.5US Boot - Adv. Intermediate / Advanced


So did your preferences change during this time?

I'm thinking maybe you want something with a longer sidecut but that bends a shorter radius when you want it to. Have you tried the Slush Slasher? At least it's easy to pick it up cheaply to try out.

I haven't tried something with a long swallowtail but I'm also thinking that something with a long radius and a bendy tail could be something you want.


----------



## jsil

My preferences didn't really change. I'm just a much stronger rider that is comfortable carving at any speed now.

I'm still looking for something of the snowsurf variety to change it up and try a different style. I've been told by a couple people that I should steer away from the goldfish with a size 8 boot to something like the asym fish. I prefer 260+ width boards, but haven't ridden anything wider yet so they may be right.

I've tried a slush slasher, and when the groomers are packed powder it's a fun ride, but not what I'm looking for. I also thought the pow performance / chopped up pow was pretty bad compared to other boards I've ridden unless you're on perfect snow.


----------



## Jkb818

How about this?http://www.mosssnowstick.com/2020-2021/58-swallow


----------



## Jkb818

Or this http://www.mosssnowstick.com/2020-2021/wing-swallow-57


----------



## jsil

Have you ridden either?


----------



## Jkb818

jsil said:


> Have you ridden either?


nope just have a similar fetish for surfy style boards and figured I'd try to give you some options to think about...much easier when its not my money.


----------



## jsil

I appreciate it, but I've looked at almost all of em out there browsing. Really looking for real life experience on the boards.


----------



## Yeahti87

I’m almost sure @zc1 had some Moss. And he owns a Surfari now


----------



## Paxford

The asym fish is dope, nothing quite like it so far. I keep trying to figure what I like about it (lots of things), but suspect the main driver is the construction, with the shape and nearly flat camber a close second.

I will be testing the goldfish come winter. By the looks it is very different, quite a bow of camber.


----------



## jsil

I worry about the flat camber. My only experience is the warpig and the edge hold just sucks (in comparison to my amplid boards) unless the snow is perfect.


----------



## Paxford

I’m talking about the feel, haven’t found anything like it. I ride it in all conditions. Ymmv


----------



## WigMar

I think your Amplids may have spoiled you when the snow gets chopped up. My Pentaquark blows my mind in those conditions. I've never rode another board that feels like that. Most snowsurf boards seem to be on the lively, flexible and soft side of the spectrum. Also, you're going to feel a lot more of the variations in the snow without that antiphase in there smoothing everything over. Maybe one of Amplid's Future shapes line like the Aloha Vibes would be good, but I'm sure you've looked at that.


----------



## jsil

WigMar said:


> I think your Amplids may have spoiled you when the snow gets chopped up. My Pentaquark blows my mind in those conditions. I've never rode another board that feels like that. Most snowsurf boards seem to be on the lively, flexible and soft side of the spectrum. Also, you're going to feel a lot more of the variations in the snow without that antiphase in there smoothing everything over. Maybe one of Amplid's Future shapes line like the Aloha Vibes would be good, but I'm sure you've looked at that.


WigMar, yeah I think you're right. I won't say that Amplids are the best boards in the world because I've only ridden ~20 different ones, but they are by far the best I've ever personally ridden. And you're right, antiphase is the first tech that I didn't think was just marketing. I own a 2019 Surfari 27, a 2018 Pentaquark 156 and adding a UNW8 when I can. 

My buddy picked up the Aloha Vibes, Dada and a few others. Going to definitely try them out this season.


----------



## jsil

Paxford said:


> I’m talking about the feel, haven’t found anything like it. I ride it in all conditions. Ymmv


Thanks paxford, I'd love to try out a 159 regular asym fish and the goldfish.


----------



## Paxford

WigMar said:


> I think your Amplids may have spoiled you when the snow gets chopped up. My Pentaquark blows my mind in those conditions. I've never rode another board that feels like that. Most snowsurf boards seem to be on the lively, flexible and soft side of the spectrum. Also, you're going to feel a lot more of the variations in the snow without that antiphase in there smoothing everything over. Maybe one of Amplid's Future shapes line like the Aloha Vibes would be good, but I'm sure you've looked at that.


Is Antiphase all good?


----------



## jsil

Amazing man... I remember I had a Neversummer Swift sitting next to my buddies Surfari on a bucket gondola and the Swift was shaking like crazy while the Surfari wasn't. It definitely stops resonating. Granted, they are different boards and one is hybrid CRC with the other surf camber, but it was very noticable. When I saw it, I had no idea what antiphase even was. He told me about it, I looked it up and found the video below. It's for real.

Demo:


----------



## Jkb818

Is that in all their boards?


----------



## jsil

Only the centrifugal series:


surfari (freeride/groomers/pow)
pentaquark (high speed groomer Slayer)
unw8 (directional twin)

Their other high end boards have another type of dampening which I'm told is also very good, but not the same tech.


----------



## Jkb818

I’m feeling the Aloha Vibes but damn is it wide.


----------



## zc1

jsil said:


> I see some people compare the Goldfish to a gentem rocketfish, and I'd love some feedback from some of you guys who have ridden both. I can pick up a goldfish for ~$625 and wonder if it's worth trying. I'm really looking for the closest experience I can get to a gentem/moss for snowsurf style riding so open to suggestions if I'm off base. I do wish it had a black base now. My surfari looks like it's 5 years old after the repairs I've had to do to the white base.
> 
> Thanks in advance!





Yeahti87 said:


> I’m almost sure @zc1 had some Moss. And he owns a Surfari now


Thanks for the mention, @Yeahti87 I don't get email notifications and just happened to check in on the forum today.

I haven't ridden Gentemstick or Elevated Surfcraft boards at all, but I've ridden a bunch of the boards in the Moss lineup and own a few.

The Moss boards as a whole are unlike anything else that I've ridden. You really need to ride them to see whether any of them would be worth the money to you.

As a whole, they're not the most versatile boards you'll come across, although some (eg. Fluffy) are better than others. They're fun quiver boards. Most are wider than average and on the softer end of the flex scale. Most have very little positive camber, significant setback and a lot of nose rocker. Soft and wide = not wonderful in harder chop, but they're ultimately powder boards that can be ridden elsewhere as well so that's

The C3 and Fluffy are the most fun of the Moss boards that I've tried -- out of the C3, Fluffy, U4, U4 Half, U5, 62 Swallow, 57 Wing Swallow, Jellyfish.

The Fluffy 54 was the most well-rounded of the bunch, IMO, and the only one that I would consider as a 'quiver of one' in their lineup. Coming from anything else it (as well as the U5) will feel very familiar and easy-to-ride in many respects.

The Jellyfish was the most 'Moss-style snowsurf' of the boards that I rode. You can ride the "Moss style" of snow surfing on any board at all, but I found that the jellyfish seemed to give me the most sense of fitting that style of riding (even though I'm very much a novice).

There's nothing that I can say that can properly capture the feeling of riding their boards. They are really 'ride before you buy' boards. Even within the same series the boards ride slightly differently from what I'm told. The 58 vs 62 Swallows, are one example. The 58 has much longer tails than the 62, so it's not just a matter of the 62 being for bigger riders and the 58 being for smaller riders. They're all meant to ride differently, and anyone can ride any board.


----------



## Paxford

Anything new tech wise for the season? Looking for board feel.


----------



## jsil

zc1 said:


> Thanks for the mention, @Yeahti87 I don't get email notifications and just happened to check in on the forum today.
> 
> I haven't ridden Gentemstick or Elevated Surfcraft boards at all, but I've ridden a bunch of the boards in the Moss lineup and own a few.
> 
> The Moss boards as a whole are unlike anything else that I've ridden. You really need to ride them to see whether any of them would be worth the money to you.
> 
> As a whole, they're not the most versatile boards you'll come across, although some (eg. Fluffy) are better than others. They're fun quiver boards. Most are wider than average and on the softer end of the flex scale. Most have very little positive camber, significant setback and a lot of nose rocker. Soft and wide = not wonderful in harder chop, but they're ultimately powder boards that can be ridden elsewhere as well so that's
> 
> The C3 and Fluffy are the most fun of the Moss boards that I've tried -- out of the C3, Fluffy, U4, U4 Half, U5, 62 Swallow, 57 Wing Swallow, Jellyfish.
> 
> The Fluffy 54 was the most well-rounded of the bunch, IMO, and the only one that I would consider as a 'quiver of one' in their lineup. Coming from anything else it (as well as the U5) will feel very familiar and easy-to-ride in many respects.
> 
> The Jellyfish was the most 'Moss-style snowsurf' of the boards that I rode. You can ride the "Moss style" of snow surfing on any board at all, but I found that the jellyfish seemed to give me the most sense of fitting that style of riding (even though I'm very much a novice).
> 
> There's nothing that I can say that can properly capture the feeling of riding their boards. They are really 'ride before you buy' boards. Even within the same series the boards ride slightly differently from what I'm told. The 58 vs 62 Swallows, are one example. The 58 has much longer tails than the 62, so it's not just a matter of the 62 being for bigger riders and the 58 being for smaller riders. They're all meant to ride differently, and anyone can ride any board.


I missed your post from four months back, but very interesting thoughts on a brand I've never had the chance to ride. Do you have an Amplid Surfari too? If so, how would you compare the rides, and if I was to pick up one moss to try, you'd recommend the 154 fluffy?

For others in the thread, I picked up up a very cheap Amplid UNW8 156, which isn't a snowsurf style board by any means, but allows me the amazing amplid carving with a directional twin. I truly missed riding switch last year as I was mostly on the amplid Surfari and pentaquark.

Paxford, I'm very much looking forward to your review of the goldfish this season. I almost bought one, but at the end of the day had to save the money fornother expenses.


----------



## Paxford

For sure, Goldfish is in my living room, tempting me. I’m counting the days to resorts opening here, but it’ll likely be thin. I need good coverage on the structures and pipe to see how it does.


----------



## kimchijajonshim

Paxford said:


> Anything new tech wise for the season? Looking for board feel.


They don't really do "tech". They release new models / shapes, then just update the graphic every year. The only new model this year is the Fluffy, next newest after that is the C3 and the Jellyfish. The Fluffy looks like a riot, if they made one in a 158-ish, I would buy one.


----------



## kimchijajonshim

zc1 said:


> The Moss boards as a whole are unlike anything else that I've ridden. You really need to ride them to see whether any of them would be worth the money to you.
> 
> As a whole, they're not the most versatile boards you'll come across, although some (eg. Fluffy) are better than others. They're fun quiver boards. Most are wider than average and on the softer end of the flex scale. Most have very little positive camber, significant setback and a lot of nose rocker. Soft and wide = not wonderful in harder chop, but they're ultimately powder boards that can be ridden elsewhere as well so that's
> 
> The C3 and Fluffy are the most fun of the Moss boards that I've tried -- out of the C3, Fluffy, U4, U4 Half, U5, 62 Swallow, 57 Wing Swallow, Jellyfish.
> 
> The Fluffy 54 was the most well-rounded of the bunch, IMO, and the only one that I would consider as a 'quiver of one' in their lineup. Coming from anything else it (as well as the U5) will feel very familiar and easy-to-ride in many respects.
> 
> The Jellyfish was the most 'Moss-style snowsurf' of the boards that I rode. You can ride the "Moss style" of snow surfing on any board at all, but I found that the jellyfish seemed to give me the most sense of fitting that style of riding (even though I'm very much a novice).
> 
> There's nothing that I can say that can properly capture the feeling of riding their boards. They are really 'ride before you buy' boards. Even within the same series the boards ride slightly differently from what I'm told. The 58 vs 62 Swallows, are one example. The 58 has much longer tails than the 62, so it's not just a matter of the 62 being for bigger riders and the 58 being for smaller riders. They're all meant to ride differently, and anyone can ride any board.


+1 to most everything here. I own a Swallow 62 and a Wingswallow 149. I previously owned a PQ54, which I traded for the Wingswallow.

I think the SW162 rides pretty "normal" for a directional board, but other than that their boards are wild and unlikely anything else I've ever ridden. Besides the ones I've owned, I've taken a few laps on the Long, the SW70, PQ60, and a U5. Even within the same model, they maintain the same basic silhouette, but switch up the specs pretty drastically. The Swallows and the PQs ride very differently between sizes.

I don't necessarily agree they're "ride before you buy" boards unless you can get one for an extended demo. They take a while to get used to. I usually form a pretty good first impression of a board within about a half a day, but a Moss board will usually take more like 3-5 days before I reach even a provisional verdict (except for the Swallows, I liked those immediately). How and where you initiate turns is different than on normal boards, way more backfoot, but even when/where specifically differs a lot from board to board and even size to size.


----------



## Paxford

kimchijajonshim said:


> They don't really do "tech". They release new models / shapes, then just update the graphic every year. The only new model this year is the Fluffy, next newest after that is the C3 and the Jellyfish. The Fluffy looks like a riot, if they made one in a 158-ish, I would buy one.


Moss has been dialed for a long time, that’s a given. I’d like to know if American, Canadian, Euro companies, etc have got on board with snowsurf and have something new inside their decks. Like surflite 2.0 or Amplid Antiphase. Shape and contour will always differ for each rider, conditions and style.


----------



## Nivek

Honestly without being able to see the spec sheets for Moss or Gentem or the like, its hard to say if any western brand is building anything with "similar" tech. There are some that have a achieved a reminiscent personality though, intentional or not. K2 Simple Pleasures reg and Niseko, the Overboard, DC HR, Weston Japow, Burton Sensei...


----------



## Jkb818

Nivek said:


> Honestly without being able to see the spec sheets for Moss or Gentem or the like, its hard to say if any western brand is building anything with "similar" tech. There are some that have a achieved a reminiscent personality though, intentional or not. K2 Simple Pleasures reg and Niseko, the Overboard, DC HR, Weston Japow, Burton Sensei...


Have you tried the SP Niseko? Curious how it compares to the standard.


----------



## Nivek

Its just a little bit softer, mostly torsionally.


----------



## Rip154

Bamboo, taper and a flex pattern designed for carving, without being too stiff in the back, means you will get something close.


----------



## Paxford

Yes, but is bamboo veneer and core the only way to not have the typical shitty feel of a snowboard in less than ideal conditions? Bamboo topsheet isn't on every Moss, but I'm not sure about their core. Are they all bamboo? Am I wasting my time with anything else? I definitely feel the difference in how smooth the asym fish is with bamboo topsheet and core, but it also has VDS rubber, triax, full carbon layer and more carbon at the inserts. Not exactly sure where the mojo is coming from, but I'm fairly confident it isn't just shape.


----------



## MrDavey2Shoes

What is the “typical shitty feel” we’re trying to isolate here?


----------



## Rip154

Has nothing to do with bamboo topsheets, and doesn't have to be bamboo, but needs some stringers with rebound in the right places.


----------



## Paxford

MrDavey2Shoes said:


> What is the “typical shitty feel” we’re trying to isolate here?


The undamp and lively, twitchy and too connected to the snow, in a bad way. Prefer damp and lively for better flow in man-made snow that gets hard, crusty mixed, then slushy. 

Like riding a sandwich construction surfboard in perfectly smooth conditions and it's great, then the wind chop turns it in to a shitty bouncy ride. Same windy conditions on the same shaped PU board dampens the chop considerably better so you can still ride to the level.


----------



## MrDavey2Shoes

Yno, my Nitro Team has a smooth but lively character to it but since it’s a full cambered twin it’s obviously hooky. However the “feel” of the layup has made me really curious about the TreeHugger.(edit: I meant Fin Twin) I think that shape would be awesome if it shares the same feel that the Team has. Would’ve gone for it this season but I couldn’t pass a great deal on a Sushi Split.

I think I would describe the feel of my nitro as a car with a sport suspension but running on 17 inch wheels opposed to 19 inch. Sharp, but cushioned by a little extra sidewall.


----------



## WigMar

That combination of damp and lively is hard to pull off. It's beautiful when it happens.


----------



## Paxford

MrDavey2Shoes said:


> Yno, my Nitro Team has a smooth but lively character to it but since it’s a full cambered twin it’s obviously hooky. However the “feel” of the layup has made me really curious about the TreeHugger.(edit: I meant Fin Twin) I think that shape would be awesome if it shares the same feel that the Team has. Would’ve gone for it this season but I couldn’t pass a great deal on a Sushi Split.
> 
> I think I would describe the feel of my nitro as a car with a sport suspension but running on 17 inch wheels opposed to 19 inch. Sharp, but cushioned by a little extra sidewall.


Nitro licensed Antiphase from Amplid. Not sure when it started going in to their boards, but I'm bound to find out.


----------



## Nivek

Bio resins have actually typically done a pretty good job with this. That and with the right layup wood topsheets. The idea is to make the board damp using something other than the core layup. That way the guts of the board can be lively but the vibrations aren't too aggressive and their is a air of composure. Niche does this really well. Most Arbors. Flow did. Most brands just tend to choose one side or the other. Jones, DC, Capita... Then on the other end you have NeverSummer, Venture, most Mervin... Then some brands try to bridge it with beef, like Ride. Stiff and beef enough to be calm, and as long as you got the muscle they're still lively.

The west has progressed in snowboard design on a certain path, the east a different path. An aware rider can feel that, not everyone can, or appreciate it. There is starting to be some crossover, but only just, only a start, and sometimes not on purpose at all.


----------



## zc1

jsil said:


> I missed your post from four months back, but very interesting thoughts on a brand I've never had the chance to ride. Do you have an Amplid Surfari too? If so, how would you compare the rides, and if I was to pick up one moss to try, you'd recommend the 154 fluffy?
> 
> For others in the thread, I picked up up a very cheap Amplid UNW8 156, which isn't a snowsurf style board by any means, but allows me the amazing amplid carving with a directional twin. I truly missed riding switch last year as I was mostly on the amplid Surfari and pentaquark.
> 
> Paxford, I'm very much looking forward to your review of the goldfish this season. I almost bought one, but at the end of the day had to save the money fornother expenses.


All good. I was away for pretty much the entire summer and fall.

I have the Surfari but haven't actually started my season, yet. I got it during the off-season. Same goes for the Fluffy. I picked it up but haven't ridden it, yet. I have to say that finish-wise, it's the nicest I've seen from Moss, and I already know from taking a demo last season that it's my favourite to ride of all the Moss boards. 

I picked up an UNW8 56 that was left over in their end-of-season demo sale as well, so I have a few boards to try out in the months to come. 

I'm working a ton leading up to the Christmas break, though, so I don't know when I'll actually be able to get out and ride, yet...or if the hills will even stay open given the current situation here.


----------



## Paxford

jsil said:


> I missed your post from four months back, but very interesting thoughts on a brand I've never had the chance to ride. Do you have an Amplid Surfari too? If so, how would you compare the rides, and if I was to pick up one moss to try, you'd recommend the 154 fluffy?
> 
> For others in the thread, I picked up up a very cheap Amplid UNW8 156, which isn't a snowsurf style board by any means, but allows me the amazing amplid carving with a directional twin. I truly missed riding switch last year as I was mostly on the amplid Surfari and pentaquark.
> 
> Paxford, I'm very much looking forward to your review of the goldfish this season. I almost bought one, but at the end of the day had to save the money fornother expenses.


@jsil I don't have a full Goldfish review. I blame my wife. I spent one day on it then let her try it. I thought it wouldn't end well, but now she won't give it back. She's tripping out asking herself why she's been riding other boards. It turns very easy for her with her size 9 women's boot. For the brief time I rode the Goldfish it was clearly a special little package. With lots of camber for it's size it holds an edge very well. It gets air in turns. It has a great slash to it with almost no tail. It flies true but with no tail it can be sketchy. It's a bit short for me at 148 cm, definitely something I would only ride at mid speeds in mellow resort terrain, although with lots of pow I can see myself pushing it. From my wife's experience it's an easy board to get to know quickly and enjoy. Once the pipe has coverage I'll see how it surfs.


----------



## ScottJay49

I've owned a Rocketfish HP since 2016. I really rails carves on groomers. The slightly narrower waist width than the regular rocketfish allows it to be a bit more nimble and responsive (don't get me wrong though, at 27.2cm in the waist, it's still wide and floaty). In pow, it's unsinkable.


----------



## Paxford

That’s an interesting comparison. At 285 wide the Goldfish seems to sit in the middle of the HP and regular rocket fish size. How heavy is the camber on your HP?


----------



## FrancescoCarve

Resuscitating this thread here.

Do you think the Nidecker Alpha can be a good candidate for the type of snowboarding discussed in this thread, Japanese style carving aka snow-surfing?

Also, I did not read any mention to boots in these 16 pages - soft, medium, stiff?


----------



## jsil

I bought a k2 Niseko Pleasures 151 paired with Burton ion step ons and Genesis step on bindings. The reference stance width is 20" which I'm trying to get used to. I've only had it out two days and rode it at 18/0 and 21/6 and it really turns differently. I assume this is the snow surf style turning that everyone talks about. Definitely the most fun I've had carving at slow speeds on any board. Ill be experimenting more when the snow calms down and there are more groomer days. Been charging steep faces and deep pow the last two weeks and I'm exhausted and happy.


----------



## Etienne

FrancescoCarve said:


> Resuscitating this thread here.
> 
> Do you think the Nidecker Alpha can be a good candidate for the type of snowboarding discussed in this thread, Japanese style carving aka snow-surfing?
> 
> Also, I did not read any mention to boots in these 16 pages - soft, medium, stiff?


I didn't ride it, but wouldn't think so. Looking at the spec, maketing, it's more a freeride board,, maybe a mellower, not as big mountain killer as some others, but not necessarily a corduroy killer.

Glad to here any real tests though, it's just speculations on my side! 

Envoyé de mon H8324 en utilisant Tapatalk


----------



## ridethecliche

The alpha is a cambered carving board thats all effective edge. It's not at all a snow surfing board.


----------



## Paxford

ridethecliche said:


> The alpha is a cambered carving board thats all effective edge. It's not at all a snow surfing board.


I disagree with “not at all”. Nidecker Alpha is about 10-20% snowsurf. A hybrid.


----------



## Yeahti87

Paxford said:


> I disagree with “not at all”. Nidecker Alpha is about 10-20% snowsurf. A hybrid.


I think @ridethecliche has mistaken the Alpha with the Endeavor one.


----------



## Paxford

Yeahti87 said:


> I think @ridethecliche has mistaken the Alpha with the Endeavor one.


That makes a lot more sense, assuming that’s what @ridethecliche meant thanks for the clarification.


----------



## Paxford

FrancescoCarve said:


> Also, I did not read any mention to boots in these 16 pages - soft, medium, stiff?


My view on this is whatever holds your heel down 100% of the time works. For me that happens to be lace-up stiff boots properly sized with a last that matches my foot well enough. If I could find a soft boot that would also do this I’m game.


----------



## FrancescoCarve

Paxford said:


> I disagree with “not at all”. Nidecker Alpha is about 10-20% snowsurf. A hybrid.


I got a Nidecker Area last year that had an issue with the base after only a few uses (the layers were opening up, sigh).
It still has warranty but I am thinking to get another board from Nidecker instead of the Area, which I never loved. I got the 157 and I am 155bs, maybe that was my mistake but I feel is hard to control and maybe gives its best at high speed carving, which is not what I am looking for.


----------



## Nivek

FrancescoCarve said:


> Resuscitating this thread here.
> 
> Do you think the Nidecker Alpha can be a good candidate for the type of snowboarding discussed in this thread, Japanese style carving aka snow-surfing?
> 
> Also, I did not read any mention to boots in these 16 pages - soft, medium, stiff?


This is why I have been super interested in the new Alpha/Beta. The shapes are great, the sidecuts should be, so if they aren't too stiff they have very high potential for great turns.
While personal preference is king for boots, the generally agreed upon stiffness is soft for this kind of riding I'd say.



ridethecliche said:


> The alpha is a cambered carving board thats all effective edge. It's not at all a snow surfing board.


Maybe not the right board you're thinking of? It's mostly marketed in pow...


----------



## Nivek

FrancescoCarve said:


> I got a Nidecker Area last year that had an issue with the base after only a few uses (the layers were opening up, sigh).
> It still has warranty but I am thinking to get another board from Nidecker instead of the Area, which I never loved. I got the 157 and I am 155bs, maybe that was my mistake but I feel is hard to control and maybe gives its best at high speed carving, which is not what I am looking for.


Frankly if you aren't looking for a fast carving board, the Area just isn't what you want. What do you want?


----------



## FrancescoCarve

Nivek said:


> Frankly if you aren't looking for a fast carving board, the Area just isn't what you want. What do you want?


I'm after mellow carving, not at high speed (which in my mind would be fun but realistically speaking I will find the snow condition to do it like 5% of the times, - I am in NY).
The snow surf Japanese style of carving is what I like. I can carve with the Nidecker Area but I feel like it requires a lot of force on my end and at slower speed is not very maneuverable.


----------



## Paxford

Is there a reason why you aren’t looking at the Nidecker Mellow or Liberty? We have the older version of the Mellow 150 cm with the pointy nose rotating through various smaller stature riders. So far nothing but stoke. I haven’t ridden it myself but I’ve observed the other riders doing surfy slashes on steep banks with power and flow they’ve never been able to do. Thing rips.


----------



## FrancescoCarve

Paxford said:


> Is there a reason why you aren’t looking at the Nidecker Mellow or Liberty? We have the older version of the Mellow 150 cm with the pointy nose rotating through various smaller stature riders. So far nothing but stoke. I haven’t ridden it myself but I’ve observed the other riders doing surfy slashes on steep banks with power and flow they’ve never been able to do. Thing rips.


As far as the Mellow, it threw me off that it is a stiffness 8 while the Area is a 7. So I thought it was even worse for what I need, but I may be wrong.
I did not know about the Liberty, I am checking it now and it reminds me the K2 simple pleasure, so maybe would be the best fit between the 2?


----------



## Paxford

The Liberty is stiffer than the Mellow.


----------



## FrancescoCarve

Paxford said:


> The Liberty is stiffer than the Mellow.


Is it? On their website they have the Liberty at 7 and Mellow at 8.


----------



## Paxford

I don’t put much faith in stiffness ratings by the manufacturer. They are just a starting point for me.

Size down a stiff board and it suddenly isn’t as stiff. Put a good rider on a correctly sized stiff board and it’s no problem … to a point. You can adjust sizing to get the stiffness you want for the conditions you ride in the deck you desire … as long as your boots fit the board, or you are super flexible with binding angles and stance spacing to get your boot to fit the board with no drag.

Case in point I have a Jones UME 162 that is too stiff for my typical crowded resort riding conditions to really open it up, and it doesn’t like to go slow. Had I been able to fit my boot on a smaller UME it would have been fine, but it’s not, so I only ride it on big empty mountains. In other words, almost never.


----------



## Paxford

FrancescoCarve said:


> Is it? On their website they have the Liberty at 7 and Mellow at 8.


That may be an apples and oranges comparison because they changed the Mellow shape but not the Liberty shape. This is the one my crew digs-






I shopped for a Liberty myself a few years ago and recall chasing it because it was stiffer than the then same shaped Mellow. To add to the confusion now there is the fun ball same shaped as the Mellow-






Clear as mud, right? Damn marketing …


----------



## Paxford

This explains the added carbon and Kevlar in the Liberty vs the Mellow. I take that added tech to mean “stiffer” but frankly I wouldn’t worry too much about it, just get the right size for what you want it to do for you.

The Simple Pleasures is narrow in the tail if you’ve got a big boot, but if not it’s also a good option.









Nidecker Liberty Snowboard 2020


YOU WANT ONE JUST BECAUSE IT EXISTS. If there was one board that absolutely everybody wanted to get on during this season’s on snow preview demo’s,




www.snowboard-asylum.com


----------



## Jkb818

Snow surf is a state of mind


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Nivek

FrancescoCarve said:


> I'm after mellow carving, not at high speed (which in my mind would be fun but realistically speaking I will find the snow condition to do it like 5% of the times, - I am in NY).
> The snow surf Japanese style of carving is what I like. I can carve with the Nidecker Area but I feel like it requires a lot of force on my end and at slower speed is not very maneuverable.


I mean having ridden a few Moss's, if you wanna turn like that then save up and get a Moss Gentem or Tj. If you want something "western" then look at the Weston Japow, K2 Niseko Pleasures or Instrument, Rome Ravine, Jones Stratos, Arbor Clovis or Single



Jkb818 said:


> Snow surf is a state of mind
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Sorta, but the right board helps A LOT


----------



## Jkb818

Nivek said:


> Sorta, but the right board helps A LOT


Totally...that’s why I own a Niseko Pleasures [emoji2938]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## ridethecliche

@Nivek

Are we not talking about this alpha?









Endeavor Alpha Snowboard


This is the corduroy killer The Alpha is the speed addicts choice. The short nose and tail lengths combined with a long effective edge to board length ratio allow fast lengthy carves at ludicrous speeds. A full traditional camber profile ensures stability and grip on the toughest of snow whilst...




usa.endeavorsnowboards.com


----------



## Jkb818

ridethecliche said:


> @Nivek
> 
> Are we not talking about this alpha?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Endeavor Alpha Snowboard
> 
> 
> This is the corduroy killer The Alpha is the speed addicts choice. The short nose and tail lengths combined with a long effective edge to board length ratio allow fast lengthy carves at ludicrous speeds. A full traditional camber profile ensures stability and grip on the toughest of snow whilst...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> usa.endeavorsnowboards.com











Nidecker Alpha Snowboard - 2023 - Snowboard


Buy the Nidecker Alpha Snowboard - 2023 online or shop all Snowboard from Backcountry.com.




www.backcountry.com






Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Jkb818

Alpha APX


The Alpha APX is our flagship model in the all-new Instinct Series, combining innovative shape with premium materials for fluid, powerful turns across the whole mountain.




www.nidecker.com






Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## ridethecliche

Hahaha whoops!


----------



## Jkb818

Yeah that endeavor alpha does not look very surfy! I’m feeling the nidecker one tho! Especially the APX version. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Etienne

I totally second the Mellow, it's super smooth and love to cruise on hard pack (where I tested it) and will slash either on your front foot or totally off the tail easily. I guess it floats very decently. It has the added benefit of being a super solid freeride board that I wouldn't mind taking in the steep and technical.

In the Nidecker lineup, it seems to fit the style much more than the alpha (which I couldn't demo). 

Envoyé de mon H8324 en utilisant Tapatalk


----------



## FrancescoCarve

Paxford said:


> That may be an apples and oranges comparison because they changed the Mellow shape but not the Liberty shape. This is the one my crew digs-
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I shopped for a Liberty myself a few years ago and recall chasing it because it was stiffer than the then same shaped Mellow. To add to the confusion now there is the fun ball same shaped as the Mellow-
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Clear as mud, right? Damn marketing …


Good stuff thanks.
After checking around I am leaning toward the Mellow. There are th1 150 and 155. Based on my weight it seems I need the 150, but I have always ridden a minimum of 155, and getting 150 weirds me out a bit (does not mean I should have ridden 155 up). 
I am 5'11, 155 lbs, 10 foot size.


----------



## Paxford

FrancescoCarve said:


> Good stuff thanks.
> After checking around I am leaning toward the Mellow. There are th1 150 and 155. Based on my weight it seems I need the 150, but I have always ridden a minimum of 155, and getting 150 weirds me out a bit (does not mean I should have ridden 155 up).
> I am 5'11, 155 lbs, 10 foot size.


If you can find that older model Mellow in either size I'd grab it quick. I can't recall if you wanted nimble or more stable, but there isn't much taper so either size works with your back foot boot unless you are going for zero drag eurocarver of the year, then I'd go 155 for sure. I guess 150 is a better fit if you are really concerned about keeping it softer for your weight. 

For comparison there are no complaints about stiffness from my 3 riders on the 150.

Advanced-expert female 135 lb 5'8"
Advanced youth 115 lb 5'6"
Barely intermediate youth 170 lb 6'0"

Take it with a grain of salt, these riders do not have refined tastes for board stiffness. They leave that to me. Only downside I can think of riding a 150 for the first time is watch for cartwheels in pow as you carve hard off the front foot. You'll adjust soon enough. Might I ask what binding angles you plan to run?


----------



## FrancescoCarve

Paxford said:


> If you can find that older model Mellow in either size I'd grab it quick. I can't recall if you wanted nimble or more stable, but there isn't much taper so either size works with your back foot boot unless you are going for zero drag eurocarver of the year, then I'd go 155 for sure. I guess 150 is a better fit if you are really concerned about keeping it softer for your weight.
> 
> For comparison there are no complaints about stiffness from my 3 riders on the 150.
> 
> Advanced-expert female 135 lb 5'8"
> Advanced youth 115 lb 5'6"
> Barely intermediate youth 170 lb 6'0"
> 
> Take it with a grain of salt, these riders do not have refined tastes for board stiffness. They leave that to me. Only downside I can think of riding a 150 for the first time is watch for cartwheels in pow as you carve hard off the front foot. You'll adjust soon enough. Might I ask what binding angles you plan to run?


 I have always been riding ~+20-15. (I'm closer to Kanpton style than Japanese carving style). Since I got the Nidecker Area I am using ~+25-5. Last season I did change the angles a bunch of times cause I never felt comfortable on the Area.

I see online the Mellow from 19-20, why would you say to get that and not the 22 model?


----------



## treehugger

I almost got the Mellow last spring but got Mosquito instead. Bought into Nidecker discription as a surfsnow design. Also got sold the higher quality construction, core, and carbon infused base. Pretty stiff but really fun (surfy) and great carver. Love this board. Does a lot of things really well.


----------



## Paxford

FrancescoCarve said:


> I have always been riding ~+20-15. (I'm closer to Kanpton style than Japanese carving style). Since I got the Nidecker Area I am using ~+25-5. Last season I did change the angles a bunch of times cause I never felt comfortable on the Area.
> 
> I see online the Mellow from 19-20, why would you say to get that and not the 22 model?


Because the 22 Mellow was changed from what I have so I can’t vouch for its performance as a snowsurfer. If you must have a 22 model in that older Mellow shape then it’s called the 22 Nidecker Fun Ball. 

You shouldn’t take my advice on the prior model Mellow and directly apply it to the current model Mellow. For one, no pointy nose on the 22 which is a big deal for me snowsurfing. I’m personally not a fan of big blunted clown scoops up front for snowsurf. I don’t butter much and when I do it’s on a board designed for it. It might be ok or even excellent but I haven’t laid my hands on the 22 board or seen it in action so I can’t say.

Those big clown noses are also for float, but there are other ways. I’d rather get my float for pow from a sharper edged pointy nose with surface area elsewhere like underfoot so I don’t boot out. And just going fucking fast. I’d ride a reverse taper deck if I could get my hands on one for a steal.

I can’t confirm sizing for a 22 model either but it looks similar to the 19-20 model by the specs provided.

Your -5 angle on the back might boot out on a 150 depending on how rad you are. -15 would help clearance. Are you running medium or large bindings? 

Also if you are to be indoctrinated into a snowsurf state of mind you should check out the threads Kijima, 16gkid, wigmar, kimchon something or other (hard to spell name) and many others have created discussing preferred binding angles, carving methods, etc. Use search it’s all here.


----------



## Jkb818

Surfs up! [emoji2938]










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## FrancescoCarve

Paxford said:


> Because the 22 Mellow was changed from what I have so I can’t vouch for its performance as a snowsurfer. If you must have a 22 model in that older Mellow shape then it’s called the 22 Nidecker Fun Ball.
> 
> You shouldn’t take my advice on the prior model Mellow and directly apply it to the current model Mellow. For one, no pointy nose on the 22 which is a big deal for me snowsurfing. I’m personally not a fan of big blunted clown scoops up front for snowsurf. I don’t butter much and when I do it’s on a board designed for it. It might be ok or even excellent but I haven’t laid my hands on the 22 board or seen it in action so I can’t say.
> 
> Those big clown noses are also for float, but there are other ways. I’d rather get my float for pow from a sharper edged pointy nose with surface area elsewhere like underfoot so I don’t boot out. And just going fucking fast. I’d ride a reverse taper deck if I could get my hands on one for a steal.
> 
> I can’t confirm sizing for a 22 model either but it looks similar to the 19-20 model by the specs provided.
> 
> Your -5 angle on the back might boot out on a 150 depending on how rad you are. -15 would help clearance. Are you running medium or large bindings?
> 
> Also if you are to be indoctrinated into a snowsurf state of mind you should check out the threads Kijima, 16gkid, wigmar, kimchon something or other (hard to spell name) and many others have created discussing preferred binding angles, carving methods, etc. Use search it’s all here.


I will check the post ASAP.
Btw,I extremely rarely go in to pow. 98% of the time I'm on groomer (I know, how lame)


----------



## Paxford

Not at all, I ride whatever is there which usually isn’t good.


----------



## Nivek

FrancescoCarve said:


> Good stuff thanks.
> After checking around I am leaning toward the Mellow. There are th1 150 and 155. Based on my weight it seems I need the 150, but I have always ridden a minimum of 155, and getting 150 weirds me out a bit (does not mean I should have ridden 155 up).
> I am 5'11, 155 lbs, 10 foot size.


I'm similar weight and smaller foot and I'd put myself on the 55


----------



## FrancescoCarve

Nivek said:


> I'm similar weight and smaller foot and I'd put myself on the 55


Nice! Is it the newer or older version? How does it feel?


----------



## ridethecliche

FrancescoCarve said:


> Nice! Is it the newer or older version? How does it feel?


This looks like a deal on the older one. Maybe they'll cut the price for you if you reach out.









Mellow 19-20


Buy skiing equipment and accessories online such as ski poles, snowboards, ski boots, skate shoes, helmets, outwear and more at a discounted price. We also offer all kind of ski gear on rental. For more information call us at (503) 665-4455.




hillcrestsports.com


----------



## Paxford

That’s a nice find in this market, wouldn’t sleep on it too long as 10-20” of fresh is coming to the Cascades tonight near where that shops located. Someone might grab it.


----------



## ridethecliche

Paxford said:


> That’s a nice find in this market, wouldn’t sleep on it too long as 10-20” of fresh is coming to the Cascades tonight near where that shops located. Someone might grab it.


I saw someone at Jay with one last week. Looked like a fun board for sure!


----------



## snowave

Hey guys/gals,

Been a longtime lurker, but first time poster. I am in need of a new board, and have been quite intrigued by the snowsurf style of riding.

About me:

I'm a big guy, 6 ft 235lbs
Size 9 boot
50 yrs old, been riding 29 years

Currently own:
Arbor A-Frame 2015 model 166 (looking to replace)
Never Summer Ripsaw 162
Charlie Slasher Capita 164 (in the process of selling as I don't like it)
A couple older Rossi levitation freeride rock boards I rarely ride unless its low tide.

What I like to ride:

I like groomers, prefer to do medium size S turns/moderately high speed, with the occasional slash/skid. I also like powder, and ride in medium spaced trees and semi-open bowls. My home resorts are Brundage Mtn and Tamarack ID, although I usually take 1-2 trips a year.

My issues are:

1. The older A-Frame is a stiff board, which in hard turning fast snow it does fairly well... however, transition to smaller turns and/or slow speed can be a challenging and quite bouncy/chattering. The Ripsaw I own does a pretty good job with that (smaller carving turns/faster turning radius) but not as good at holding an edge in longer carves, and is poor in powder (slow). I also think it might be a bit short for me at 162, but I do appreciate that it's much more maneuverable than the 166 A-Frame.

I'm finding myself getting bored with the same old stuff. That's why the general idea of snow-surf style riding is appealing to me. In particular, the medium to big carving (medium to large A turns)... but also something that can throw a few nice smaller radius turns in there, too.... good float/turning in powder... and a more fluid, softer ride.

I've been reading through this thread, but at 18 pages, it is a little overwhelming. I've also looked pretty hard at the Korua boards, and in particular the Dart/Dart Plus. The Dart Plus seemed like the better board for what I'm looking for, but only 1 store online had it, but it's in the UK and does not currently ship to the US.

Bottom Line:
The biggest issue I think I'm having is finding a board that will do what I think I want, AND fitting me. Being 235 lbs with a size 9 boot can be tough to find a good compromise.

Thanks for any advice!


----------



## 16gkid

235 and a size 9 boot seems like a good problem to have no? You have a lot more choices since booting out won't be a problem and you have the weight to throw around


----------



## snowave

16gkid said:


> 235 and a size 9 boot seems like a good problem to have no? You have a lot more choices since booting out won't be a problem and you have the weight to throw around


True, not booting out is a plus, but the longer boards (that are often geared for higher weight) seem to have a big width to assume you got feet as big as the brisket/beer belly.


----------



## Snowdaddy

snowave said:


> True, not booting out is a plus, but the longer boards (that are often geared for higher weight) seem to have a big width to assume you got feet as big as the brisket/beer belly.


You could have a look at the Stranda Shorty. The Stranda boards aren't super stiff like many other carving boards, so you can make them turn different shapes quite easily. I don't own any Stranda boards, but riding the SHorty was one of the nicest turning experience I've had.

The Korua boards are also very nice. The problem there will be that you'll have a lot of width over the front foot so they will take a bit more effort to put on edge and wont be as relaxing to ride as a narrower board.


----------



## NT.Thunder

Snowdaddy said:


> You could have a look at the Stranda Shorty. The Stranda boards aren't super stiff like many other carving boards, so you can make them turn different shapes quite easily. I don't own any Stranda boards, but riding the SHorty was one of the nicest turning experience I've had.
> 
> The Korua boards are also very nice. The problem there will be that you'll have a lot of width over the front foot so they will take a bit more effort to put on edge and wont be as relaxing to ride as a narrower board.


Have you ridden the Bowlrider out of interest


----------



## Gregg LaPointe

More width front foot that’s where you turn no?


----------



## Snowdaddy

NT.Thunder said:


> Have you ridden the Bowlrider out of interest


Yes, I have. Thought I'd like it more than I did. I didn't particularly care for the nose. Felt low and floppy and I didn't like the shape of it.. I'm sure it does its job in powder, it just wasn't for me. The sidecut is very nice like all of the Stranda boards and the edgehold is great. I wasn't super stoked on it, but I think that Mats is right when he said it might be slightly too soft for me.

The top sheet on the Bowlrider almost makes it worth buying the board just for the beauty of it. I do see how it could be a great bank carver and pillow popper. My favorite Strandas are the Shorty and the Descender. Followed by the Tree Surfer I think.


----------



## Snowdaddy

Gregg LaPointe said:


> More width front foot that’s where you turn no?


Totally, but you also have more binding angle there. Boards like my Tracer with less taper and more set back on the side cut actually have a narrower width over the front foot.

Edit: compared to the back foot.


----------



## Paxford

snowave said:


> Hey guys/gals,
> 
> Been a longtime lurker, but first time poster. I am in need of a new board, and have been quite intrigued by the snowsurf style of riding.
> 
> About me:
> 
> I'm a big guy, 6 ft 235lbs
> Size 9 boot
> 50 yrs old, been riding 29 years
> 
> Currently own:
> Arbor A-Frame 2015 model 166 (looking to replace)
> Never Summer Ripsaw 162
> Charlie Slasher Capita 164 (in the process of selling as I don't like it)
> A couple older Rossi levitation freeride rock boards I rarely ride unless its low tide.
> 
> What I like to ride:
> 
> I like groomers, prefer to do medium size S turns/moderately high speed, with the occasional slash/skid. I also like powder, and ride in medium spaced trees and semi-open bowls. My home resorts are Brundage Mtn and Tamarack ID, although I usually take 1-2 trips a year.
> 
> My issues are:
> 
> 1. The older A-Frame is a stiff board, which in hard turning fast snow it does fairly well... however, transition to smaller turns and/or slow speed can be a challenging and quite bouncy/chattering. The Ripsaw I own does a pretty good job with that (smaller carving turns/faster turning radius) but not as good at holding an edge in longer carves, and is poor in powder (slow). I also think it might be a bit short for me at 162, but I do appreciate that it's much more maneuverable than the 166 A-Frame.
> 
> I'm finding myself getting bored with the same old stuff. That's why the general idea of snow-surf style riding is appealing to me. In particular, the medium to big carving (medium to large A turns)... but also something that can throw a few nice smaller radius turns in there, too.... good float/turning in powder... and a more fluid, softer ride.
> 
> I've been reading through this thread, but at 18 pages, it is a little overwhelming. I've also looked pretty hard at the Korua boards, and in particular the Dart/Dart Plus. The Dart Plus seemed like the better board for what I'm looking for, but only 1 store online had it, but it's in the UK and does not currently ship to the US.
> 
> Bottom Line:
> The biggest issue I think I'm having is finding a board that will do what I think I want, AND fitting me. Being 235 lbs with a size 9 boot can be tough to find a good compromise.
> 
> Thanks for any advice!


Here is some food for thought. 

I think your biggest issue might not be your boot size to weight ratio, rather that you need two boards to meet your requirements given your boot size to weight ratio.

Wide board for deep powder float and another one with the minimum waist required for shallow powder and the rest. 

I’m really curious what waist size range you are targeting? 

I’m going to try and change your requirements. Right now you are thinking medium to fast big turns are your bread and butter, but I think that might be a consequence of what you’ve been riding thus far, both board wise and terrain. All your current boards are long in this age of short fats and I’m guessing they also have fairly long sidecut and are fairly stiff, but maybe not so stiff given your weight. No, still pretty stiff except the ripsaw. Unless you are riding Mach 1 all the time and intend to continue as you switch your style to snowsurf then I don’t think you want this stiffness in a snowsurf deck that also needs to bend those short arc turns and throw buckets in tight slashes initiated in tight quarters like trees and sidebanks with rocks, stumps etc riding at slower speeds. IMO there really is a freestyle flair to consider in choosing a deck for snowsurf. Surfers pop airs, do grabs, spins, flips and whatnot too. They don’t exceed 30 mph either. I do love laying a big deck over above 30 mph but those variety of more freeride focused decks seem to be only good for that. I can push the limits of my softer decks to mid 30 mph without losing so much slow speed versatility. That is fast enough for me 90% of the time, how fast do you really want to go?

I don’t know your resort personally but I presume it’s uncrowded leading you to ride medium to large turns more often than not, but once you start something new (snowsurfing) those long decks are holding you back in all situations except wide open high speed riding and float in powder. And they are annoying on the chairlift. You can get your float other ways (rocker, taper, width, setback) without the length penalty which limits your ability to turn on a dime.

I just sold my 162 Ultra Mind Expander because its setup like some of the decks in the Stranda lineup. It’s marketed as surfy but I disagree, unless you are always riding the biggest emptiest waves in the world. Had I only wanted to do large turns in wide open spaces at Mach 1 I would have kept it, but that isn’t what snowsurfing is to me. I’d call that more straight up carving. It’s missing the versatility to have fun in trees, carve slow, tweak gnarly slashes, hit features etc. Will it do it, yes, but not nearly as well as a shorter setup with less camber, shorter sidecut, less stiffness, more edge bevel (aka 3D board features) and no big floppy blunt shaped nose.

I think you are on the right track with the Dart for the deeps. For the rest I’d start with looking at something like the Tranny Finder. Do yourself a favor and make sure to add “Korua” to your “Tranny Finder” google search, otherwise odd SERP will result. I am only recommending the tranny finder 157 because it will still do your large carves but will flex and shift easily under your weight. I’ve seen it on an advanced-expert rider similar boot size, weight (robust beer belly dude) and height to you carving double black ice very well, then taken over to surf the pipe pretty ok. Stiff freeride boards are poor surfing the pipe unless you can get them up to speed. How boards surf the pipe, how shifty they can be, is a measure of how shifty and quick they’ll perform in off piste trees, obstacles and banks you’ll explore snowsurfing.

If any of this is making sense to you then there are more boards to consider besides those mentioned thus far in this post.


----------



## snowave

Paxford said:


> Here is some food for thought.
> 
> I think your biggest issue might not be your boot size to weight ratio, rather that you need two boards to meet your requirements given your boot size to weight ratio.
> 
> Wide board for deep powder float and another one with the minimum waist required for shallow powder and the rest.
> 
> I’m really curious what waist size range you are targeting?
> 
> *Honestly, I don't know specifically. I have ridden wide boards before, and been disappointed in the on snow feel and turning capabilities. From my experience, they have been only mostly good for powder.. which while I love, but that is definitely secondary to groomers.*
> 
> I’m going to try and change your requirements. Right now you are thinking medium to fast big turns are your bread and butter, but I think that might be a consequence of what you’ve been riding thus far, both board wise and terrain. All your current boards are long in this age of short fats and I’m guessing they also have fairly long sidecut and are fairly stiff, but maybe not so stiff given your weight. No, still pretty stiff except the ripsaw. Unless you are riding Mach 1 all the time and intend to continue as you switch your style to snowsurf then I don’t think you want this stiffness in a snowsurf deck that also needs to bend those short arc turns and throw buckets in tight slashes initiated in tight quarters like trees and sidebanks with rocks, stumps etc riding at slower speeds.
> 
> *I understand, and to some point agree with this. However, I do love to carve, and I do like to go relatively fast.. however, I am becoming a little more cautious in my "old age", so I've toned it down a little over the last couple years, especially in less than ideal conditions. I do want a more casual surfy feel to my carving, but want to keep the speed up a little, too. I'm really not into jumping/parks at all, but in powder I will become more adventurous with terrain. I do still love to do slashy turns on the banks of nice groomers, sides of runs... but that's as close to freestyle as I typically get. I guess to answer your question, yes.. i'd like a more forgiving/less stiff ride.. but something that won't compromise my turning/edge hold, either. *
> 
> IMO there really is a freestyle flair to consider in choosing a deck for snowsurf. Surfers pop airs, do grabs, spins, flips and whatnot too. They don’t exceed 30 mph either. I do love laying a big deck over above 30 mph but those variety of more freeride focused decks seem to be only good for that. I can push the limits of my softer decks to mid 30 mph without losing so much slow speed versatility. That is fast enough for me 90% of the time, how fast do you really want to go?
> 
> 
> *As mentioned above, maybe I don't fit the exact definition of snow surf then as I am not that interesting in doing much more than carving, ocassional slashes and powder in the trees. I am fine staying under 30 mph, I don't need to go faster than that anymore... but I want to be able to turn hard-ish at times with speed... just not all the time.*
> 
> I don’t know your resort personally but I presume it’s uncrowded leading you to ride medium to large turns more often than not, but once you start something new (snowsurfing) those long decks are holding you back in all situations except wide open high speed riding and float in powder. And they are annoying on the chairlift. You can get your float other ways (rocker, taper, width, setback) without the length penalty which limits your ability to turn on a dime.
> 
> True.. yes, my resorts are typically not that crowded, and offer lots of room midweek when I typically ride.
> 
> I just sold my 162 Ultra Mind Expander because its setup like some of the decks in the Stranda lineup. It’s marketed as surfy but I disagree, unless you are always riding the biggest emptiest waves in the world. Had I only wanted to do large turns in wide open spaces at Mach 1 I would have kept it, but that isn’t what snowsurfing is to me. I’d call that more straight up carving. It’s missing the versatility to have fun in trees, carve slow, tweak gnarly slashes, hit features etc. Will it do it, yes, but not nearly as well as a shorter setup with less camber, shorter sidecut, less stiffness, more edge bevel (aka 3D board features) and no big floppy blunt shaped nose.
> 
> *I've also been looking at the Stranda Shorty, by recommedation from someone else on this forum. Looks like a really fu board, but might be a bit squirrely for me in those bigger turns?*
> 
> I think you are on the right track with the Dart for the deeps. For the rest I’d start with looking at something like the Tranny Finder. Do yourself a favor and make sure to add “Korua” to your “Tranny Finder” google search, otherwise odd SERP will result. I am only recommending the tranny finder 157 because it will still do your large carves but will flex and shift easily under your weight. I’ve seen it on an advanced-expert rider similar boot size, weight (robust beer belly dude) and height to you carving double black ice very well, then taken over to surf the pipe pretty ok. Stiff freeride boards are poor surfing the pipe unless you can get them up to speed. How boards surf the pipe, how shifty they can be, is a measure of how shifty and quick they’ll perform in off piste trees, obstacles and banks you’ll explore snowsurfing.
> 
> *I would love to go shorter, but 157 seems too short for my weight. I sometimes even feel the 162 ripsaw I have is too short, although I know a part of that is I'm used to riding big boards. The other concern is Korua's specs also list the weight range topping out at only 200 lbs. Thats a really big difference.
> *
> If any of this is making sense to you then there are more boards to consider besides those mentioned thus far in this post.
> 
> 
> *A lot of it does make sense, and I really appreciate the time/effort you put into it. While I have been riding a long time, my knowledge of board technology is limited. I wish I could demo more things, but no demo days this year at our local resorts, and even when they do... they rarely have boards in my typical size range, or a big variety.
> 
> Thanks again for the tips!*


----------



## Snowdaddy

The shorty is far from squirrely. You would probably be on the 169 and that has a 1350 mm edge and a 9 m sidecut. Not saying this is the board you should be on by that but it's very nice. It's a freeride board that's excellent for carving. It's not a very demanding board, but it's not for sliding around on the piste though. You want this board on edge and carving.

There are so many options out there though.The suggestion that you try a Transition Finder 157 isn't that bad I think. Another board you could look at is the Buteo 157.


----------



## snowave

Snowdaddy said:


> The shorty is far from squirrely. You would probably be on the 169 and that has a 1350 mm edge and a 9 m sidecut. Not saying this is the board you should be on by that but it's very nice. It's a freeride board that's excellent for carving. It's not a very demanding board, but it's not for sliding around on the piste though. You want this board on edge and carving.
> 
> There are so many options out there though.The suggestion that you try a Transition Finder 157 isn't that bad I think. Another board you could look at is the Buteo 157.



So, why not the Buteo 162 instead of the 157? For my weight, it would seem a no brainer.


----------



## Snowdaddy

snowave said:


> So, why not the Buteo 162 instead of the 157? For my weight, it would seem a no brainer.


It depends on how haul ass you are 

I'm your weight and the 162 was too much board for me at normal resort riding, but I've only been at this for a few years. If I ever got rid of the Bullet Train, the Buteo 162 is the board I would replace it with. So far I've been looking for a board to complement my Pencil plus and I'm considering the Buteo 157. Not entirely decided.

I bought the Nidecker Tracer 161 to complement my Pencil plus because I wanted a board that had a bit less taper, longer edge and was a little narrower over the nose. I ended up with the Tracer. The Tracer's radius is a bit short for my liking in a carving board, so I'm still looking. I bought a Tur Bubo for trees and fun and I'm likely to buy a Pluv 159 for riding with my daughter. Considering a Buteo 157 for resort carving and general fun.

@unsuspected who weighs more than me rode the 157 and said it was one of the best boards he ever tried.


----------



## Paxford

@snowave it helps to know where advice is coming from when dialing in your ride. I’m oldish too at almost 44 so self preservation matters. For me the highest risk is hitting a tree, rock, stump, etc. so I tend towards highly maneuverable controllable boards. I do jump but you won’t see me really hucking it on the larger features (unless there’s pow). 

I jumped on this forum maybe 3 years ago not knowing how snowboards are built and run accordingly. Before then I rode what I had and didn’t know any better. I expected quick answers because in surfboards everything design wise is much more clear and the internet has been around a long time so surely I can hop on a forum and get a good board recommendation, right? My mistake!

This forum couldn’t give me quick answers because I didn’t speak the language, and many here don’t surf, or snowsurf, and thus aren’t relatable, but that’s changed more recently for the better. 

So without much help I started buying boards, lots of them, to understand what works for me, and along the way tested boards for my wife and kids of varying ability, weights, heights, boot sizes, athleticism and preferred terrain (I have a park rat in the pack). We buy everything on sale and sell off what doesn’t work before we destroy its value. I surf and skate too and am generally obsessed with sliding on boards over every medium on earth. I can’t stand when people suck because of misinformation or poor equipment, which I found there is a TON of in snowboard industry marketing. 

The online reviewers are for better or worse very valuable, all of them, if you understand where they are coming from. No single online reviewer rides every deck, so you need them all to get good coverage of the offerings. Back to you …

You can take a stiff “rated by the manufacturer on their website” board and size down to reduce that stiffness relative to you and your riding capabilities.

That is exactly the plan with the 157 tranny finder recommendation. It’s a death plank to a 150 lb beginner, medium-stiff to a 200 lb advanced rider, and probably medium-ish to 235 lb advanced rider on groomers. On deep powder your likely going to have a float problem (unless you haul ass) so you’d need more surface area in your board for those days, especially ticking and tacking slow in trees. Hence the recommendation for a more powder flotation specific deck for those epic deep days.

Also, having softer torsional flex between the bindings can go a really long way to make an otherwise stiff board still flex, but not buckle in hard carves … if you know how to carve with such a setup, and if you don’t now you will quickly learn and adapt. I love love love a soft waist with stiffness elsewhere because it solves problems without too much sacrifice. A fat waisted board by nature doesn’t have torsional flex at the bindings, but builders use things like lighter biax glass, selectively placing carbon and other stiffer materials not in the middle of the board but elsewhere to try and soften up that middle while keeping stiffness elsewhere (no floppy clown noses please!).

So start thinking about waist width. As 16gkid mentioned, you are really lucky to have a smaller boot. And also think if you want two brand new boards or just one. You will be happier with two but I understand that may be a bridge to far at this time. Whether you go for two or one will change the board(s) myself and others will recommend.

BTW my new sled just arrived. Been waiting for two years for the right price. It’s a 2020 154 Capita Powder Drifter bought for 47% off. I’m 6’4” size 12 boot and 200 lbs, 30 lbs over the recommended weight, and I am going to ride the hell out of it. There are deals to be had if you know what to look for.


----------



## snowave

Paxford said:


> @snowave it helps to know where advice is coming from when dialing in your ride. I’m oldish too at almost 44 so self preservation matters. For me the highest risk is hitting a tree, rock, stump, etc. so I tend towards highly maneuverable controllable boards. I do jump but you won’t see me really hucking it on the larger features (unless there’s pow).
> 
> I jumped on this forum maybe 3 years ago not knowing how snowboards are built and run accordingly. Before then I rode what I had and didn’t know any better. I expected quick answers because in surfboards everything design wise is much more clear and the internet has been around a long time so surely I can hop on a forum and get a good board recommendation, right? My mistake!
> 
> This forum couldn’t give me quick answers because I didn’t speak the language, and many here don’t surf, or snowsurf, and thus aren’t relatable, but that’s changed more recently for the better.
> 
> So without much help I started buying boards, lots of them, to understand what works for me, and along the way tested boards for my wife and kids of varying ability, weights, heights, boot sizes, athleticism and preferred terrain (I have a park rat in the pack). We buy everything on sale and sell off what doesn’t work before we destroy its value. I surf and skate too and am generally obsessed with sliding on boards over every medium on earth. I can’t stand when people suck because of misinformation or poor equipment, which I found there is a TON of in snowboard industry marketing.
> 
> The online reviewers are for better or worse very valuable, all of them, if you understand where they are coming from. No single online reviewer rides every deck, so you need them all to get good coverage of the offerings. Back to you …
> 
> You can take a stiff “rated by the manufacturer on their website” board and size down to reduce that stiffness relative to you and your riding capabilities.
> 
> That is exactly the plan with the 157 tranny finder recommendation. It’s a death plank to a 150 lb beginner, medium-stiff to a 200 lb advanced rider, and probably medium-ish to 235 lb advanced rider on groomers. On deep powder your likely going to have a float problem (unless you haul ass) so you’d need more surface area in your board for those days, especially ticking and tacking slow in trees. Hence the recommendation for a more powder flotation specific deck for those epic deep days.
> 
> Also, having softer torsional flex between the bindings can go a really long way to make an otherwise stiff board still flex, but not buckle in hard carves … if you know how to carve with such a setup, and if you don’t now you will quickly learn and adapt. I love love love a soft waist with stiffness elsewhere because it solves problems without too much sacrifice. A fat waisted board by nature doesn’t have torsional flex at the bindings, but builders use things like lighter biax glass, selectively placing carbon and other stiffer materials not in the middle of the board but elsewhere to try and soften up that middle while keeping stiffness elsewhere (no floppy clown noses please!).
> 
> So start thinking about waist width. As 16gkid mentioned, you are really lucky to have a smaller boot. And also think if you want two brand new boards or just one. You will be happier with two but I understand that may be a bridge to far at this time. Whether you go for two or one will change the board(s) myself and others will recommend.
> 
> BTW my new sled just arrived. Been waiting for two years for the right price. It’s a 2020 154 Capita Powder Drifter bought for 47% off. I’m 6’4” size 12 boot and 200 lbs, 30 lbs over the recommended weight, and I am going to ride the hell out of it. There are deals to be had if you know what to look for.


Congrats on the new stick! That thing is a beauty!

Again, thanks for all the great advice. I went ahead and pulled the trigger a few minutes ago on the 164 Dart. I really think it's the best board for what I'm looking for. Super excited to trying a different style of riding on a very different board.


----------



## Paxford

snowave said:


> Congrats on the new stick! That thing is a beauty!
> 
> Again, thanks for all the great advice. I went ahead and pulled the trigger a few minutes ago on the 164 Dart. I really think it's the best board for what I'm looking for. Super excited to trying a different style of riding on a very different board.


Congrats to you as well! The Dart is very different from your norm and a great choice to start your journey into alternative shaped boards. Many folks are afraid to change things up that much on their first experimental board, but that is exactly how you learn what is available, and what works for you. [emoji122]


----------



## MrDavey2Shoes

I’ve been enjoying the Mind Expander for “surfing”. Anyone else? I know @Paxford mentioned the Ultra ME but I think there’s a surprising amount of difference between them.

safe to say my mind has been expanded and I walk back some of the things I’ve said in this thread…😬


----------



## Paxford

That UME is such a Frankenstein mess IMO. I haven't been on the Mind Expander but with all the positive vibes I imagine they just missed the mark trying to cover too many things with the UME. If I had to have just one board maybe I'd feel differently about it, but its flawed on crowded days in less than ideal snow which I get a lot of, so even with just one board I'd probably pass. Different mountain might be better.


----------



## NT.Thunder

Paxford said:


> That UME is such a Frankenstein mess IMO. I haven't been on the Mind Expander but with all the positive vibes I imagine they just missed the mark trying to cover too many things with the UME. If I had to have just one board maybe I'd feel differently about it, but its flawed on crowded days in less than ideal snow which I get a lot of, so even with just one board I'd probably pass. Different mountain might be better.


Sounds similar to the ME Twin - seems that board got a little lost in the design and confused around its intent.

Interesting that the ME series got a big revamp this year


----------



## MrDavey2Shoes

@NT.Thunder what else did they do?


----------



## NT.Thunder

MrDavey2Shoes said:


> @NT.Thunder what else did they do?


Changed the camber profile to more of an S-Camber and moved the insert pack forward


----------



## MrDavey2Shoes

That would totally change…well everything about the Mind Expander.


----------



## NT.Thunder

MrDavey2Shoes said:


> That would totally change…well everything about the Mind Expander.


----------



## ThatsNotFennel

NT.Thunder said:


> View attachment 161361
> View attachment 161362
> View attachment 161363


Refreshing that they're bringing camber to the surf series. But I'm sorry - that topsheet is fucking awful. I'm all for function over fashion, but can't we have just a _little bit _of fashion?


----------



## NT.Thunder

ThatsNotFennel said:


> Refreshing that they're bringing camber to the surf series. But I'm sorry - that topsheet is fucking awful. I'm all for function over fashion, but can't we have just a _little bit _of fashion?


That's so funny - I'm like, how good is that topsheet, simplistic and none of this space shit, or unicorn shit or random paint splatters just a good clean topsheet. I own a LTD PP which is just all blue, a Dada which is all orange, a surfari all grey a yup which looks sweet and now a Korua all white.

Reminds me of the Burton Custom Camber/FV graphic.

Funny, I wasn't a big fan of the Salomon Dancehaul, in fact hate the graphics and then I saw the Max Buri which I'm assuming is the same deck and was like sweet, I could own that.


----------



## ThatsNotFennel

NT.Thunder said:


> That's so funny - I'm like, how good is that topsheet, simplistic and none of this space shit, or unicorn shit or random paint splatters just a good clean topsheet. I own a LTD PP which is just all blue, a Dada which is all orange, a surfari all grey a yup which looks sweet and now a Korua all white.
> 
> Reminds me of the Burton Custom Camber/FV graphic.
> 
> Funny, I wasn't a big fan of the Salomon Dancehaul, in fact hate the graphics and then I saw the Max Buri which I'm assuming is the same deck and was like sweet, I could own that.
> 
> View attachment 161377


I don't need the top sheet to be a Jackson Pollock or a Thomas Eakins. And I don't judge boards by their art - I choose based on specs. I ride a 2016 FA and an OG Warpig. My boards are _not_ particularly pretty. But I would rather have an ugly board with some thought than a plain looking board with none.


----------



## 16gkid

NT.Thunder said:


> That's so funny - I'm like, how good is that topsheet, simplistic and none of this space shit, or unicorn shit or random paint splatters just a good clean topsheet. I own a LTD PP which is just all blue, a Dada which is all orange, a surfari all grey a yup which looks sweet and now a Korua all white.
> 
> Reminds me of the Burton Custom Camber/FV graphic.
> 
> Funny, I wasn't a big fan of the Salomon Dancehaul, in fact hate the graphics and then I saw the Max Buri which I'm assuming is the same deck and was like sweet, I could own that.
> 
> View attachment 161377


I'm with you, I love the plain top sheet look, it's like a white sports car, a classic look


----------



## MrDavey2Shoes

I prefer the new top sheet to what’s on my mind expander. I like colors not graphics.
Graphics make me think of the opening scene in fast and furious where Paul walker owes muscle man a 10 second handy. Shit that’s not right is it?

that being said I don’t like any of the other changes they’ve made. Seems like any other directional board now.


----------



## Paxford

MrDavey2Shoes said:


> I prefer the new top sheet to what’s on my mind expander. I like colors not graphics.
> Graphics make me think of the opening scene in fast and furious where Paul walker owes muscle man a 10 second handy. Shit that’s not right is it?
> 
> that being said I don’t like any of the other changes they’ve made. Seems like any other directional board now.


Since we are invoking Paul, I gotta ask @MrDavey2Shoes , have you heard/seen Chad and JT on YT? 😂


----------



## MrDavey2Shoes

Paxford said:


> Since we are invoking Paul, I gotta ask @MrDavey2Shoes , have you heard/seen Chad and JT on YT? 😂


Bruh, dude, super stoked on that rabbit hole you just sent me down.

truly is was hilarious


----------



## snowave

Got my Korua Dart 164 in 2 days from Germany to rural Idaho. Pretty impressive! Even a nice, personalized written note on the box to "enjoy your turns".

Took it out yesterday for its debut and was blown away. What an incredibly fun board. Holds an edge like I've never experienced before, but was also very responsive and stable. Conditions were almost perfect, with excellent groomers. 

I was surprised how little of a transition it was from my other boards. I was really expecting the width to give me issues as well as the more positive stance with my back foot. However, I didn't really notice any challenge. In fact, I was probably even more comfortable with my back foot positive (+10) when before, I usually rode pretty much 0. 

Looking forward to trying it in some powder. Unfortunately, we've been in a dry pattern for 3 weeks now, and it appears it will continue for a while longer.


----------



## Nolefan2011

Paxford said:


> @snowave it helps to know where advice is coming from when dialing in your ride. I’m oldish too at almost 44 so self preservation matters. For me the highest risk is hitting a tree, rock, stump, etc. so I tend towards highly maneuverable controllable boards. I do jump but you won’t see me really hucking it on the larger features (unless there’s pow).
> 
> I jumped on this forum maybe 3 years ago not knowing how snowboards are built and run accordingly. Before then I rode what I had and didn’t know any better. I expected quick answers because in surfboards everything design wise is much more clear and the internet has been around a long time so surely I can hop on a forum and get a good board recommendation, right? My mistake!
> 
> This forum couldn’t give me quick answers because I didn’t speak the language, and many here don’t surf, or snowsurf, and thus aren’t relatable, but that’s changed more recently for the better.
> 
> So without much help I started buying boards, lots of them, to understand what works for me, and along the way tested boards for my wife and kids of varying ability, weights, heights, boot sizes, athleticism and preferred terrain (I have a park rat in the pack). We buy everything on sale and sell off what doesn’t work before we destroy its value. I surf and skate too and am generally obsessed with sliding on boards over every medium on earth. I can’t stand when people suck because of misinformation or poor equipment, which I found there is a TON of in snowboard industry marketing.
> 
> The online reviewers are for better or worse very valuable, all of them, if you understand where they are coming from. No single online reviewer rides every deck, so you need them all to get good coverage of the offerings. Back to you …
> 
> You can take a stiff “rated by the manufacturer on their website” board and size down to reduce that stiffness relative to you and your riding capabilities.
> 
> That is exactly the plan with the 157 tranny finder recommendation. It’s a death plank to a 150 lb beginner, medium-stiff to a 200 lb advanced rider, and probably medium-ish to 235 lb advanced rider on groomers. On deep powder your likely going to have a float problem (unless you haul ass) so you’d need more surface area in your board for those days, especially ticking and tacking slow in trees. Hence the recommendation for a more powder flotation specific deck for those epic deep days.
> 
> Also, having softer torsional flex between the bindings can go a really long way to make an otherwise stiff board still flex, but not buckle in hard carves … if you know how to carve with such a setup, and if you don’t now you will quickly learn and adapt. I love love love a soft waist with stiffness elsewhere because it solves problems without too much sacrifice. A fat waisted board by nature doesn’t have torsional flex at the bindings, but builders use things like lighter biax glass, selectively placing carbon and other stiffer materials not in the middle of the board but elsewhere to try and soften up that middle while keeping stiffness elsewhere (no floppy clown noses please!).
> 
> So start thinking about waist width. As 16gkid mentioned, you are really lucky to have a smaller boot. And also think if you want two brand new boards or just one. You will be happier with two but I understand that may be a bridge to far at this time. Whether you go for two or one will change the board(s) myself and others will recommend.
> 
> BTW my new sled just arrived. Been waiting for two years for the right price. It’s a 2020 154 Capita Powder Drifter bought for 47% off. I’m 6’4” size 12 boot and 200 lbs, 30 lbs over the recommended weight, and I am going to ride the hell out of it. There are deals to be had if you know what to look for.


Got some bad news for you Paxford, but that board isn’t going to be flexible torsionally. I own one. For what you describe, the Family Tree Showstopper or Pow Wrench will do it. The layup under binding helps.

The Capita Power Racer and Drifter have these plates under foot that make them pretty damn stiff torsionally, but that means you can lay it on edge and dig a trench.

I know it’s hard because you can’t demo those boards, but figured I’d give you a heads up before bindings hit the board….


----------



## MrDavey2Shoes

Nolefan2011 said:


> Got some bad news for you Paxford, but that board isn’t going to be flexible torsionally. I own one. For what you describe, the Family Tree Showstopper or Pow Wrench will do it. The layup under binding helps.
> 
> The Capita Power Racer and Drifter have these plates under foot that make them pretty damn stiff torsionally, but that means you can lay it on edge and dig a trench.
> 
> I know it’s hard because you can’t demo those boards, but figured I’d give you a heads up before bindings hit the board….


Have you ridden the show stopper? Talk to me about this board, I’m so curious about it.


----------



## Nolefan2011

MrDavey2Shoes said:


> Have you ridden the show stopper? Talk to me about this board, I’m so curious about it.


Have no ridden either board, but ridden / owned 5 Family Tree boards now.

They do an amazing job making these boards torsionally flexible that are great to work. I’ve read it’s the way they lay the glass under foot. Whatever they are doing, they are fun, floaty decks with big setbacks, and surprisingly fun on groomers.

My Capita sucks on trails. Strictly powder. It’s stiff torsionally and just has decent pop. While the float with the balsa is really nice, there are better boards overall that can make a groomer day as fun as a pow day. The fam tree designs are next level IMO. This from a guy that wanted to hate Burton


----------



## Paxford

Nolefan2011 said:


> Got some bad news for you Paxford, but that board isn’t going to be flexible torsionally. I own one. For what you describe, the Family Tree Showstopper or Pow Wrench will do it. The layup under binding helps.
> 
> The Capita Power Racer and Drifter have these plates under foot that make them pretty damn stiff torsionally, but that means you can lay it on edge and dig a trench.
> 
> I know it’s hard because you can’t demo those boards, but figured I’d give you a heads up before bindings hit the board….


Good info. I twist decks like few can, but I too have limits. Hopefully undersizing will help. We will see …


----------



## Paxford

@Nolefan2011 do you own the Capita powder racer or the powder drifter, or both?


----------



## Nolefan2011

Paxford said:


> @Nolefan2011 do you own the Capita powder racer or the powder drifter, or both?


I have just the Powder Racer with the balsa core from a few years back (the real construction IMO for float). The plates, which are underfoot in both models, make the board pretty stiff torsionally. Tip to tail, it’s super playful. But downsizing won’t change it torsionally with the plates


----------



## Nivek

Y'all can add the Nerd Relic to this list


----------



## MrDavey2Shoes

Nivek said:


> Y'all can add the Nerd Relic to this list


what in the yellow slushy is that even?


----------



## Paxford

MrDavey2Shoes said:


> what in the yellow slushy is that even?


If I recall correctly @Nivek is going out on his own to leave Angry to be Angry 😂 at fat skiers and people who don't get his reviews (which are awesome) and Nerd is Nivek's startup? @Nivek care to elaborate?


----------



## Paxford

Deal/Steal alert @WigMar @MrDavey2Shoes @ridethecliche -









TailGunner


Tailgunner 2020 is a masterpiece built with the knowledgeable staff at Baldface Lodge. A fierce shape and calculated combination of length and width in the nose and tail make it perfection in powder. Add a dreamy flex, shorter overall riding length combined with set back stance options and...




signalsnowboards.com





I was helping a buddy with The Search for a pow deck, and I certainly don't need one, but was like WTF, hold on a sec buddy I've got to buy something right quick, can't help myself at that price. $213 out the door. Only available in 166.


----------



## Paxford

Nolefan2011 said:


> Got some bad news for you Paxford, but that board isn’t going to be flexible torsionally. I own one. For what you describe, the Family Tree Showstopper or Pow Wrench will do it. The layup under binding helps.
> 
> The Capita Power Racer and Drifter have these plates under foot that make them pretty damn stiff torsionally, but that means you can lay it on edge and dig a trench.
> 
> I know it’s hard because you can’t demo those boards, but figured I’d give you a heads up before bindings hit the board….





Paxford said:


> Good info. I twist decks like few can, but I too have limits. Hopefully undersizing will help. We will see …





Paxford said:


> @Nolefan2011 do you own the Capita powder racer or the powder drifter, or both?





Nolefan2011 said:


> I have just the Powder Racer with the balsa core from a few years back (the real construction IMO for float). The plates, which are underfoot in both models, make the board pretty stiff torsionally. Tip to tail, it’s super playful. But downsizing won’t change it torsionally with the plates


The powder drifter had been sitting waiting for a powder day and I had waited too long, so I took it out on a high quality man made medium snow groomer day. Maybe we aren't connecting @Nolefan2011, but I twist that board torsionally no problem. It has the surflite 2.0 core and is the lightest board I've ever ridden by far. Really incredible. I think you have it backwards, the balsa core is less float and the surflite core is more float. At least that is how its marketed, next pow day I'll confirm but it's so light compared to all my wood cored decks it only makes sense. I'd love to hold a powder racer in hand to confirm, balsa can be really light too.

I know ya'll have heard me drone on about my Asym Fish, and until trying this Capita nothing has even come close for that surfboard feel. The Capita is very loose until you set that edge and rail it. Pops great in turns and that tail, OMG that tail. I get more height ollying off rollers than most of my freestyle decks, and all my pow decks. I am also more comfortable jumping on that deck than any of my other pow decks. So buttery soft on the landing. Actually hurt myself going way bigger than I should have for my skill level because it is that confidence inspiring in flight (for a pow deck). Plus great on the chair without all the weight hanging on my leg. Anything with surflite construction is of interest to me now. I don't give a shit about durability though.


----------



## Paxford

MrDavey2Shoes said:


> Bruh, dude, super stoked on that rabbit hole you just sent me down.
> 
> truly is was hilarious


Love their characters, they hit home for me being from San Clemente and surfing all over SoCal. Not sure if you caught Chad & JT's content around this, but dem boys used to be regulars on Watters World until they said some stuff Watters/Fox didn't like/didn't fit with the political narrative. So funny when Elephants complain about censorship on the other side but they don't look in the mirror at themselves.


----------



## Scalpelman

Paxford said:


> Deal/Steal alert @WigMar @MrDavey2Shoes @ridethecliche -
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> TailGunner
> 
> 
> Tailgunner 2020 is a masterpiece built with the knowledgeable staff at Baldface Lodge. A fierce shape and calculated combination of length and width in the nose and tail make it perfection in powder. Add a dreamy flex, shorter overall riding length combined with set back stance options and...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> signalsnowboards.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I was helping a buddy with The Search for a pow deck, and I certainly don't need one, but was like WTF, hold on a sec buddy I've got to buy something right quick, can't help myself at that price. $213 out the door. Only available in 166.


Dammit. The freakishly big and small get all the deals. [emoji23][emoji23][emoji23][emoji23]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Paxford

Scalpelman said:


> Dammit. The freakishly big and small get all the deals.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


For shits and giggles google “Marfan”


----------



## Paxford

Paxford said:


> For shits and giggles google “Marfan”


Looks like Craig Kelly to me, those arms.


----------



## ridethecliche

Paxford said:


> Deal/Steal alert @WigMar @MrDavey2Shoes @ridethecliche -
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> TailGunner
> 
> 
> Tailgunner 2020 is a masterpiece built with the knowledgeable staff at Baldface Lodge. A fierce shape and calculated combination of length and width in the nose and tail make it perfection in powder. Add a dreamy flex, shorter overall riding length combined with set back stance options and...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> signalsnowboards.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I was helping a buddy with The Search for a pow deck, and I certainly don't need one, but was like WTF, hold on a sec buddy I've got to buy something right quick, can't help myself at that price. $213 out the door. Only available in 166.


Aw man you got me excited. I've wanted a 154 or maybe 158 for a while. I missed this sale when it first came out and they had more sizes. This is the dregs of the original sale. 😭😭😭


----------



## ridethecliche

Amplid outlet also looks to have a few thins. Penta and unw8 as well as creamer are on there.









SNOWBOARDS







www.amplid.com


----------



## Paxford

ridethecliche said:


> Aw man you got me excited. I've wanted a 154 or maybe 158 for a while. I missed this sale when it first came out and they had more sizes. This is the dregs of the original sale. 😭😭😭


Totally slept on the original sale, we were in Mammoth riding early season and had just prevented a bear (literally) from taking our Thanksgiving Turkey so I was just “a little” distracted. Had me wound up for days. Never been scared of bears but this one was hangry. You guys/gals are on sales way faster than me these days. Keep shredding.


----------



## Paxford

ridethecliche said:


> Amplid outlet also looks to have a few thins. Penta and unw8 as well as creamer are on there.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SNOWBOARDS
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.amplid.com


To get antiphase tech at a discount is promising. They only have the UNW8 left in the centrifugal series. Waiting on Amplid to spread antiphase across their lineup, and start making a little wider boards, or license it to those who do.

The dims on that Spray Tray look very big kid/little lady friendly, plus minimal camber. Love how companies are making boards these days! It’s my surfy dream 👌🌨❄🌊🏄‍♂️🏄‍♀️🏂🏔🤙😎


----------



## kimchijajonshim

Random update: I settled in on a K2 Instrument as a close-to ideal daily driver. It's an all-mountain deck with snowsurf influence. Not really rear foot driven, but has a lot of subtlety on edge... feel like I can do a lot of interesting things with it moving my weight around through the course of the turn.

I would knock a few mm off the waist width (266 mm on the 163 close to 260) and expand the sidecut radius a touch (8.18 to probably like 8.4-ish)... but it might be as close to my ideal spec board as possible without commissioning a custom.

My last daily driver was the Korua Stealth 163. Instrument's comparable to the Stealth on edge (albeit different feel), worse in power, and better switch. Debating whether to keep the Stealth or sell it.

Been hearing some interesting things about next year's K2 Passport. I don't really do demos these days, but may try to hunt that one down at a demo in a few weeks.


----------



## NT.Thunder

Paxford said:


> To get antiphase tech at a discount is promising. They only have the UNW8 left in the centrifugal series. Waiting on Amplid to spread antiphase across their lineup, and start making a little wider boards, or license it to those who do.
> 
> The dims on that Spray Tray look very big kid/little lady friendly, plus minimal camber. Love how companies are making boards these days! It’s my surfy dream 👌🌨❄🌊🏄‍♂️🏄‍♀️🏂🏔🤙😎


Nitro are running the Antiphase tech on their Highlander board and is available in a few sizes including a 163W


----------



## Paxford

NT.Thunder said:


> Nitro are running the Antiphase tech on their Highlander board and is available in a few sizes including a 163W


Yep, but unfortunately while she’s a beauty, she’s too narrow for a 12 boot. Also a stiffer freeride than I need for snowsurf or general freestyle carving daily driving hardpack (I still surf the hardpack, just on more centered boards to bring in airtime). The Highlander could be a good big mountain touring board. There can be only one … purpose.

This may be wishful thinking or my faulty logic in not building boards myself, but my vision is to apply koryd/antiphase to softer floppier less sturdy less freeride planky types of boards. Decks that are really light, lively and pressable as-is where you end up being undergunned in some all mountain conditions, then bringantiphase tech in to make them smooth riding/damp and more maneagable/capable all mountain. Think of a just over medium flex rockered board or just under medium cambered board with problems like a floppy nose, or feeling everything underfoot causing fatigue to set in on a long day or multi day outing.

Then rather than adding beef to the deck (like in some of the plus boards we see), instead apply antiphase to help cancel out those vibrations while keeping the light lively nature.

Essentially don’t try and turn a nice horse into a wild Mustang the user can’t handle with ramped up materials, rather turn it into a well trained thoroughbred able to outrace the others with smoothness and efficiency while the well trained jockey sits back and enjoys, rather than fighting against a poorly trained animal.

There’s probably 20 different engineering reasons why you can’t just add antiphase to an existing platform and it’s current build/materials, but board makers should be trying to figure out the recipe to bring snowboarding the next big step up in performance. It’s not just shape and profile, everything has been done there, it’s the construction that’ll matter.


----------



## Nivek

Shaping is pretty dialed, agreed. Manufacturing capabilities is the next thing, and materials. Ridiculous cores have been tried, but nothing matches up the performance, life, and general durability of wood. I have ideas, but I also don't have a Craig's facility to play with them. I would love to experiment with more laminated constructions and hybrid composite/wood cores, but alas, Nerd is not a A level brand...yet. One of the subtle things in the last few years that is mostly unnoticeable is the life of boards has gotten way better. Epoxies and glass have made big steps in the last 10 years. Way cleaner and tighter glass needs less epoxy to bind and holds onto less excess epoxy, and the glue itself has gotten better with better elastic properties. All together meaning that the way your board feels at day 100 is way closer to how it felt at day 10 than they all did 10 years ago.


----------



## ridethecliche

@kimchijajonshim so when are you getting an amplid? Thought you sold or traded the stealth?


----------



## kimchijajonshim

ridethecliche said:


> @kimchijajonshim so when are you getting an amplid? Thought you sold or traded the stealth?


Amplid never really caught my attention. More interested in Stranda if I try anything new.

Still got the Stealth. Debating whether to keep it. Will probably ride it through this season back-to-back with the Instrument and decide if I want to keep it. Only time I've ridden it this season is at Baldface in pow. I have other boards I'd rather ride in deep pow, so I need to make a call about whether I can justify keeping it when Instrument covers like 90% of the same territory and is more versatile.


----------



## ridethecliche

kimchijajonshim said:


> Amplid never really caught my attention. More interested in Stranda if I try anything new.
> 
> Still got the Stealth. Debating whether to keep it. Will probably ride it through this season back-to-back with the Instrument and decide if I want to keep it. Only time I've ridden it this season is at Baldface in pow. I have other boards I'd rather ride in deep pow, so I need to make a call about whether I can justify keeping it when Instrument covers like 90% of the same territory and is more versatile.


Sounds like you're holding onto it because it's NLA. I don't think you'd miss it. I honestly wonder what you'd think of the simple pleasures in a 156! If you were local I'd let you borrow mine, but you have a knack for finding sharks on pow days.


----------



## kimchijajonshim

ridethecliche said:


> Sounds like you're holding onto [Stealth] because it's NLA.


Yea that's fair. If Korua made a ~163 TF, I'd probably just say screw it and move the Stealth. But I won't be able to find that shape again if I move it.


----------



## jsil

Paxford said:


> The asym fish is dope, nothing quite like it so far. I keep trying to figure what I like about it (lots of things), but suspect the main driver is the construction, with the shape and nearly flat camber a close second.
> 
> I will be testing the goldfish come winter. By the looks it is very different, quite a bow of camber.


What are your thoughts now after another season or two? Do you still love the Asym Fish? Is it the older model that isn't as wide? I saw that they bumped the widths up in the newest version.


----------



## Luffe

kimchijajonshim said:


> Random update: I settled in on a K2 Instrument as a close-to ideal daily driver. It's an all-mountain deck with snowsurf influence. Not really rear foot driven, but has a lot of subtlety on edge... feel like I can do a lot of interesting things with it moving my weight around through the course of the turn.
> 
> I would knock a few mm off the waist width (266 mm on the 163 close to 260) and expand the sidecut radius a touch (8.18 to probably like 8.4-ish)... but it might be as close to my ideal spec board as possible without commissioning a custom.
> 
> My last daily driver was the Korua Stealth 163. Instrument's comparable to the Stealth on edge (albeit different feel), worse in power, and better switch. Debating whether to keep the Stealth or sell it.
> 
> Been hearing some interesting things about next year's K2 Passport. I don't really do demos these days, but may try to hunt that one down at a demo in a few weeks.


Did you ever get to ride the Passport? Seems like a similar board to the Instrument that is a little bit narrower, just what I’m looking for.


----------



## MrDavey2Shoes

kimchijajonshim said:


> Amplid never really caught my attention. More interested in Stranda if I try anything new.
> 
> Still got the Stealth. Debating whether to keep it. Will probably ride it through this season back-to-back with the Instrument and decide if I want to keep it. Only time I've ridden it this season is at Baldface in pow. I have other boards I'd rather ride in deep pow, so I need to make a call about whether I can justify keeping it when Instrument covers like 90% of the same territory and is more versatile.


I'd love to hear more about the instrument. Thinking about that for a daily.


----------



## Paxford

jsil said:


> What are your thoughts now after another season or two? Do you still love the Asym Fish? Is it the older model that isn't as wide? I saw that they bumped the widths up in the newest version.


Same, nothing compares. I thought the new model is narrower than the old model, not wider. I’m on the old model.


----------



## jsil

Paxford said:


> Same, nothing compares. I thought the new model is narrower than the old model, not wider. I’m on the old model.


I believe the new model is wider, but there could have been a few iterations. Great to hear! Still looking to pick one up. I know they are on sale now, but a bit expensive still.


----------



## Paxford

jsil said:


> I believe the new model is wider, but there could have been a few iterations. Great to hear! Still looking to pick one up. I know they are on sale now, but a bit expensive still.


They have the new model waist measured at 26.75 cm on their site. I just looked at my old model and the waist is printed on at 27 cm. Not much difference, but the older model is wider at the waist. If you know of a wider option please share, it’s disappointing to me that they shrunk the waist. Opens it up to more riders but not me, now I’ll have to look to custom from them or get one of the owners leftover boards if/when mine breaks.


----------



## MrDavey2Shoes

Anyone have any info on the Elevated surf craft Red Tail Hawk or Snoplank snofish, not the asym.
I guess this is another shout at @Paxford , I know you have boards from both companies.

might trade my Korua for one of these but I have 8.5 boots.


----------



## jsil

Paxford said:


> They have the new model waist measured at 26.75 cm on their site. I just looked at my old model and the waist is printed on at 27 cm. Not much difference, but the older model is wider at the waist. If you know of a wider option please share, it’s disappointing to me that they shrunk the waist. Opens it up to more riders but not me, now I’ll have to look to custom from them or get one of the owners leftover boards if/when mine breaks.











SnoPlanks Asym Fish 159 CM snowboard powderboard all-mountain Burton Jones | eBay


Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for SnoPlanks Asym Fish 159 CM snowboard powderboard all-mountain Burton Jones at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!



www.ebay.com













Current 160 (equivalent?) is 26cm width waist


----------



## Paxford

jsil said:


> SnoPlanks Asym Fish 159 CM snowboard powderboard all-mountain Burton Jones | eBay
> 
> 
> Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for SnoPlanks Asym Fish 159 CM snowboard powderboard all-mountain Burton Jones at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!
> 
> 
> 
> www.ebay.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 162913
> 
> 
> Current 160 (equivalent?) is 26cm width waist


Gotcha, I’m comparing the 166. So some got wider and some got narrower


----------



## Paxford

MrDavey2Shoes said:


> Anyone have any info on the Elevated surf craft Red Tail Hawk or Snoplank snofish, not the asym.
> I guess this is another shout at @Paxford , I know you have boards from both companies.
> 
> might trade my Korua for one of these but I have 8.5 boots.


I haven’t rode either board. I would say if the construction is the same on the Snofish as the asym fish then it is probably a special board too.


----------



## Demi9OD

Paxford said:


> Yep, but unfortunately while she’s a beauty, she’s too narrow for a 12 boot. Also a stiffer freeride than I need for snowsurf or general freestyle carving daily driving hardpack (I still surf the hardpack, just on more centered boards to bring in airtime). The Highlander could be a good big mountain touring board. There can be only one … purpose.
> 
> This may be wishful thinking or my faulty logic in not building boards myself, but my vision is to apply koryd/antiphase to softer floppier less sturdy less freeride planky types of boards. Decks that are really light, lively and pressable as-is where you end up being undergunned in some all mountain conditions, then bringantiphase tech in to make them smooth riding/damp and more maneagable/capable all mountain. Think of a just over medium flex rockered board or just under medium cambered board with problems like a floppy nose, or feeling everything underfoot causing fatigue to set in on a long day or multi day outing.
> 
> Then rather than adding beef to the deck (like in some of the plus boards we see), instead apply antiphase to help cancel out those vibrations while keeping the light lively nature.
> 
> Essentially don’t try and turn a nice horse into a wild Mustang the user can’t handle with ramped up materials, rather turn it into a well trained thoroughbred able to outrace the others with smoothness and efficiency while the well trained jockey sits back and enjoys, rather than fighting against a poorly trained animal.
> 
> There’s probably 20 different engineering reasons why you can’t just add antiphase to an existing platform and it’s current build/materials, but board makers should be trying to figure out the recipe to bring snowboarding the next big step up in performance. It’s not just shape and profile, everything has been done there, it’s the construction that’ll matter.


I think this is a really cool idea. Take a medium flex lightweight board with full length carbon stringers like the Blur. Add antiphase. For my preference chop and blunt the tail, S-camber it, you've got what sounds like a 'sell everything else' board to me.


----------



## jsil

Demi9OD said:


> I think this is a really cool idea. Take a medium flex lightweight board with full length carbon stringers like the Blur. Add antiphase. For my preference chop and blunt the tail, S-camber it, you've got what sounds like a 'sell everything else' board to me.





Paxford said:


> Gotcha, I’m comparing the 166. So some got wider and some got narrower


Interesting. I wonder why they did that.


----------



## Paxford

jsil said:


> Interesting. I wonder why they did that.


It makes sense in their lineup, just not for me. 250 is way too narrow at 159 length (or really any length) for most so they bumped that to 267. 270 was too wide for most (but not nearly enough for me) at 166 length so they dropped that to 267. I think they did this for appearance to sell boards to goofs who think wide boards can't work. 

That left a hole for folks that needed that narrower 250 width so they added a third size at 156 and 255. They are catering to the general market, which is good, but does nothing for me in size 12 boot. I tend to think they did this purely for marketing as people are afraid of too wide a board so they don't buy, and 159 length scares away female riders that could totally use the 250 width.

Fact is these boards ride much smaller than their length implies so female riders would be fine with a 159. Short effective edge compared to length combined with rocker makes this a highly manueverable setup for the length.


----------



## ridethecliche

Paxford said:


> Yep, but unfortunately while she’s a beauty, she’s too narrow for a 12 boot. Also a stiffer freeride than I need for snowsurf or general freestyle carving daily driving hardpack (I still surf the hardpack, just on more centered boards to bring in airtime). The Highlander could be a good big mountain touring board. There can be only one … purpose.
> 
> This may be wishful thinking or my faulty logic in not building boards myself, but my vision is to apply koryd/antiphase to softer floppier less sturdy less freeride planky types of boards. Decks that are really light, lively and pressable as-is where you end up being undergunned in some all mountain conditions, then bringantiphase tech in to make them smooth riding/damp and more maneagable/capable all mountain. Think of a just over medium flex rockered board or just under medium cambered board with problems like a floppy nose, or feeling everything underfoot causing fatigue to set in on a long day or multi day outing.
> 
> Then rather than adding beef to the deck (like in some of the plus boards we see), instead apply antiphase to help cancel out those vibrations while keeping the light lively nature.
> 
> Essentially don’t try and turn a nice horse into a wild Mustang the user can’t handle with ramped up materials, rather turn it into a well trained thoroughbred able to outrace the others with smoothness and efficiency while the well trained jockey sits back and enjoys, rather than fighting against a poorly trained animal.
> 
> There’s probably 20 different engineering reasons why you can’t just add antiphase to an existing platform and it’s current build/materials, but board makers should be trying to figure out the recipe to bring snowboarding the next big step up in performance. It’s not just shape and profile, everything has been done there, it’s the construction that’ll matter.


I'm going to go back to this. 

There's definitely been a trend to take boards with rave reviews with limitations and trying to stiffen them up into something they're not. 

I mean at the end of the day everything is a compromise. If you take a board with great torsional flex but complaints that the nose flops around too much and throw some carbon stringers. Well now the nose to tail flex is great but the torsional flex suffers. Everything is way more consequential and the playful fun element is gone. 

I'm very curious what @Nivek has to say about this but part of this imho is that people expect too much of any single board vis a vis their riding. You might find the perfect board for your riding but there are going to be compromises when you detract from that. If you've actually picked the right board for your style then you're all set. If your style is evolving or you're still figuring it all out then well you're going to hit limitations. 

Just putting in antiphase or doing this or that isn't going to fix all the perceived inadequacy in a board. It's just going to create other limitations elsewhere. Maybe instead of trying to figure out the tool's inadequacy we need to look at our own... 

At the end of the day we're all chasing a feeling. At some point we realize it wasn't quite right and a brand has the exciting new board that seems to be exactly what we need. The dopamine hits then fades and back we are looking for that feeling again.


----------



## Etienne

God I wish I had a light lively board that could handle more terrain... But yeah, seeing how many all mountain fs/fr have tried, it more than antiphase for sure. 

Still after a season on the Café Racer, I really wish I had a board that could surf/carve like it, but just handle more terrain in freeride and be a bit more lively in technical places. It's really where it falls short and I can't limit myself to low angle glades. 

Envoyé de mon H8324 en utilisant Tapatalk


----------



## MrDavey2Shoes

Etienne said:


> God I wish I had a light lively board that could handle more terrain... But yeah, seeing how many all mountain fs/fr have tried, it more than antiphase for sure.
> 
> Still after a season on the Café Racer, I really wish I had a board that could surf/carve like it, but just handle more terrain in freeride and be a bit more lively in technical places. It's really where it falls short and I can't limit myself to low angle glades.
> 
> Envoyé de mon H8324 en utilisant Tapatalk


that's why I’m selling mine. I demand more versatility. Carves very well though, very well.


----------



## Luffe

kimchijajonshim said:


> Random update: I settled in on a K2 Instrument as a close-to ideal daily driver. It's an all-mountain deck with snowsurf influence. Not really rear foot driven, but has a lot of subtlety on edge... feel like I can do a lot of interesting things with it moving my weight around through the course of the turn.
> 
> I would knock a few mm off the waist width (266 mm on the 163 close to 260) and expand the sidecut radius a touch (8.18 to probably like 8.4-ish)... but it might be as close to my ideal spec board as possible without commissioning a custom.
> 
> My last daily driver was the Korua Stealth 163. Instrument's comparable to the Stealth on edge (albeit different feel), worse in power, and better switch. Debating whether to keep the Stealth or sell it.
> 
> Been hearing some interesting things about next year's K2 Passport. I don't really do demos these days, but may try to hunt that one down at a demo in a few weeks.





Etienne said:


> God I wish I had a light lively board that could handle more terrain... But yeah, seeing how many all mountain fs/fr have tried, it more than antiphase for sure.
> 
> Still after a season on the Café Racer, I really wish I had a board that could surf/carve like it, but just handle more terrain in freeride and be a bit more lively in technical places. It's really where it falls short and I can't limit myself to low angle glades.
> 
> Envoyé de mon H8324 en utilisant Tapatalk





MrDavey2Shoes said:


> that's why I’m selling mine. I demand more versatility. Carves very well though, very well.


----------



## kimchijajonshim

MrDavey2Shoes said:


> I'd love to hear more about the instrument. Thinking about that for a daily.


Approaching my favorite board I've ever owned (out of ~40). I'll grab the Instrument if I don't know what conditions are like or what I'm going to be riding, because I can have fun on it basically everywhere from park to steeps. I own 6 solids, and I rode the Instrument almost exclusively after buying it mid-season.

K2 claims "volume shift" and I probably could have gotten away with the 160, but I'm glad I went with my typical size with the 163. Little wider underfoot that I'd prefer, but I'd rather have that than give up with the additional edge and tightening up with the sidecut radius.

Carves AWESOME, surprisingly nimble. It's an all-mountain ride with a bit of that Japanese snowsurf influence... trends more precision carve than Gentemstick, but you can drive it a bit more rear foot. Splits the different well between long and short radius turns. I wish the sidecut was a little more open (blended 8.18 m on the 163), but getting even 8+ m SCRs is pretty unusual in my experience except on big time freeride boards. Again, I doubt I'll find something a better spec'd board for me unless I get a custom build.

Trends damper, but not dead. I feel like I can hold my line really well in chundery conditions, and adjust to terrain even in dust on crust. I really like the snappiness of the Bambooyah core. Tons of pop. A buddy watching me hit the jump line told me he could tell the board had some pop, and I've come close to oversending a few landings on it. 

Does decent in pow when setback. It's not a true pow board, but I rode it in probably knee-to-thigh deep pow at Kirkwood (a steeper resort) and had a blast. Tim Eddy rode one exclusively on a trip to Japan a few years back (at least when he wasn't on his split).

Great stability. I've clocked 60 mph in a straight line, although I wouldn't try to really lay too hard into sidecut past ~40-45-ish. I wouldn't want to push much faster than what I've hit, but then again as a weekend warrior I only get a few chances to go that fast a season... and if I did, I'd probably ride a mega stiff board I wouldn't really enjoy the rest of the time.

I love the board to the point that I'm considering ditching a few board. I will likely end up riding the Instrument something like 80-90% of the time. I wouldn't ride it on AK heli trips, strictly park days, or strict boilerplate ice, but it'll get the job done for basically anything in between.

Only real minor complaints I have:

Need to really work it to butter. Not sure if that's from the specific placement of the carbon "torque forks" or the bamboo core, but I really need to put my weight into the board to butter to comparably aggressive boards. Well worth the trade-off IMO.
I occasionally have some issues with late-day foot fatigue on it due to the wide waist, but that's usually after like 6-7 hours of charging and burning 4000+ calories.
I wish it just had a plain black base. This is just personal preference, I like being able to see the contraast of dry spots better and hiding repairs.



Luffe said:


> Did you ever get to ride the Passport? Seems like a similar board to the Instrument that is a little bit narrower, just what I’m looking for.


No demos for this year. Passport did catch my eye and is of interest, but I like the Instrument enough that I'd not too focused on it one way or the other.


----------



## Etienne

MrDavey2Shoes said:


> that's why I’m selling mine. I demand more versatility. Carves very well though, very well.


This is not a bad freeride board, but yeah with all that tapper and short tail, I really felt the tail vanishing in some bumpy couloirs and I can't find the type of control/playfulness I have on my Sickstick. Admittedly, the +/+ carving setup didn't help and didn't got a real chance to ride 21/0 in good "big mountain" conditions.

Still, I'm addicted to this kind of carves now (much more satifying than aggressive all-mountain carves). That's why I'm eying a Pencil+ or a Surfari (or a Mellow? a Taka even?).


----------

