# 180 hardway



## KillerDave (Mar 11, 2013)

Hey folks!

Has anyone got tips for doing a 180 hardway?

I have been hitting them but they just seem to be a lot of work! 
Like all I have to throw it round... but then I've not tried it on a jump yet...???

I'm thinking that exra air time will give me space to get it round easier???


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## zenboarder (Mar 5, 2009)

KillerDave said:


> Hey folks!
> 
> Has anyone got tips for doing a 180 hardway?
> 
> ...


Are you sure you are talking about the right thing? Hardway implies a spin onto a rail specifically a spin started where you spin "away" from the rail. I don't see how jumps fit in or how extra air time fits into spinning onto a rail?


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## snowklinger (Aug 30, 2011)

also no airtime is required for any 180s


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## KillerDave (Mar 11, 2013)

Ok, thanks for the correction.... Maybe not the right thing then???

If I carve across the slope, riding regular on my toe edge and pop into a spin, it would want to go backside.

What I am doing is spinning it the other way into a frontside???
What's that called?


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## KillerDave (Mar 11, 2013)

snowklinger said:


> also no airtime is required for any 180s


You wouldn't spin this without air, you need to carve to make it hard and that's the point of it...


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## snowklinger (Aug 30, 2011)

when you push your back foot around heel first and look uphill, this is a backside 180.

the other is frontside.

I'm sure Jed has a good explanation of it.


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## KillerDave (Mar 11, 2013)

snowklinger said:


> when you push your back foot around heel first and look uphill, this is a backside 180.
> 
> the other is frontside.
> 
> I'm sure Jed has a good explanation of it.


That sounds right but that's not what's happening....
I ride in like a back 1' but then I over rotate my upper body for a front...
Toe edge, spin counter clock..... (the wrong way)

This is probably why I can't find any videos on YouTube for it! Lol...


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## snowklinger (Aug 30, 2011)

choose your riding style.


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## KillerDave (Mar 11, 2013)

Ok, I've seen these excellent vid's...

I am doing front 180's but off my toe edge (the wrong way) .... 
Not sure why the coach was getting me doing this but it was fun... even though it was hard work....


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## jlm1976 (Feb 26, 2009)

Dave,
The hard part for me was chaning the timing of your rotation. You need to start rotating your shoulders before your in the air so that when the board leaves the ground it won't start floating into a 180 the "right" way. They do get easier and smoother as you practice and open alot of doors for your riding. Once you nail them, you can start trying to land on your toeside again(essentially going from a regular toeside carve into a switch toesidecarve with a front 180 imbetween) or start trying to spin backside off your heels. Very scary but also very doable.


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## KillerDave (Mar 11, 2013)

jlm1976 said:


> Dave,
> The hard part for me was chaning the timing of your rotation. You need to start rotating your shoulders before your in the air so that when the board leaves the ground it won't start floating into a 180 the "right" way. They do get easier and smoother as you practice and open alot of doors for your riding. Once you nail them, you can start trying to land on your toeside again(essentially going from a regular toeside carve into a switch toesidecarve with a front 180 imbetween) or start trying to spin backside off your heels. Very scary but also very doable.


Hey jlm1976!

It's like you know what I'm talking about??? Lol...

What's it called???


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## Mammoth Lifty (Aug 2, 2014)

If you're a regular rider and your spinning frontside off of the toes it is called a frontside 180 hardway, well at least in Cali it is I don't know about anywhere else


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## ML16 (Jul 28, 2014)

FS 180 off the toe edge?


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## KillerDave (Mar 11, 2013)

ML16 said:


> FS 180 off the toe edge?


That's why I thought it was a hardway....

Cause it is hard! Lol...


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## KillerDave (Mar 11, 2013)

Mammoth Lifty said:


> If you're a regular rider and your spinning frontside off of the toes it is called a frontside 180 hardway, well at least in Cali it is I don't know about anywhere else


There you go... I'm not going mad after all!

I should get a video of me doing it...???
It would be rubbish though! Lol....

I asked Kevin at SnowboardProCamp about it and he's going to put one of his excellent videos up!


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## JonSnow (Jul 24, 2013)

I think I learned how to do these last year and they are a lot of fun, plus they look kinda cool.

I'm probably not doing it correctly, but to make it easier to initiate the spin I nollie off my front toeside edge. It almost catches in the snow as I jump and will give me an an extra push as I initiate my spin.

If I am going down an easy slope with someone who isn't as fast as me I will go down a bunch of the way doing s turns entirely on my toeside edge with 180 hardways in between.


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## MGD81 (Mar 13, 2012)

They are called toe to toes, pretty common exercise in instructor training.


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## KillerDave (Mar 11, 2013)

MGD81 said:


> They are called toe to toes, pretty common exercise in instructor training.


It was an instructor that put me onto them!

I agree with jonsnow.... they do look cool bu then that snowboarding... Cool!!!


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## jlm1976 (Feb 26, 2009)

Sorry, I have no idea what it's called. I never really worry about that cause I'm too focused on doing it.


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## KillerDave (Mar 11, 2013)

jlm1976 said:


> Sorry, I have no idea what it's called. I never really worry about that cause I'm too focused on doing it.


Same here... It doesn't matter what it's called, it is fun to do and another cool trick for me to practice.... :jumping1:


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## honeycomb (Feb 6, 2011)

Even in the pros some riders like to launch off the toe edge for any spin, frontside or backside doesn't matter. The others (regular footed) launch off the heelside for frontside, and toeside for backside. Doesn't really matter how you do it, whichever is more comfortable for you. I find spinning frontside from the toes a bit harder off jumps, but on flat ground I can whip it around quicker that way.


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## KillerDave (Mar 11, 2013)

honeycomb said:


> I find spinning frontside from the toes a bit harder off jumps, but on flat ground I can whip it around quicker that way.


Maybe that's why the instructor was getting me to do it that way???
Another thing I thought of was the amount of input I had to throw at it...

If I jumped off my heals that hard, Would that be enough for a front 3?


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## Jed (May 11, 2011)

KillerDave said:


> Maybe that's why the instructor was getting me to do it that way???
> Another thing I thought of was the amount of input I had to throw at it...
> 
> If I jumped off my heals that hard, Would that be enough for a front 3?


Hrm I thought this thread was over when I saw it so I didn't reply previously, but since it's still going... to answer your earlier questions:

*Is there a name for spinning off the opposite edge?*

There's no particular official name for doing a frontside/backside spin off the opposite edge. Most people just call it what it is by saying something like 'frontside 180 off the toes'.

*Is there a reason to spin off the opposite edge?*

Totally up to the rider's comfort and what they prefer, although it's semi-rare for this to be done off jumps (much more common on flatground spins).

The reason some people prefer the feel of frontside spins off the toes is because you can control pop a lot better off your toes vs. off your heels.

One thing to note is you'll almost never see the reverse - backside spin off the heels - because almost no one wants to spin backside off their heels since it would mean you wouldn't get that nice feel of popping off your toes on backside spins.

However, another advanced reason why some people may spin off the opposite edge is because they want to travel in the direction of that edge.

One example of this is when Shaun White won the slopestyle gold at the X-Games with a backside spin over a large gap transfer jump. If I recall right he spun a backside spin off his heels so that his final heelside carve would send him in the direction he needed to do the gap transfer. As I mentioned earlier, basically no one likes spinning backside off their heels and that gap plus the difficulty of doing a backside spin off the heels in that situation basically won him the gold that year.

*As far as your spinning questions go...*

That's a whole different topic when you're asking about how to initiate and make smooth spins, but what I can say in short is that if you're having to muscle around a 180 or 360, then your technique is off.

Spinning is all about combining carving, upper body rotation, and timing. When you do so correctly and in the right order/timing, the spin happens naturally with next to no effort. If you're having to rely on jumping off your heels hard then your technique is definitely off somewhere.


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## Jibfreak (Jul 16, 2009)

A hardway spin is used in reference to spinning on to a rail/box. If you're aproaching a rail with the rail on your heelside and you spin backside onto the rail that is "hardway" because your natural tendency would be to spin frontside onto the rail.


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## KillerDave (Mar 11, 2013)

Hey Jed,

When I was learning 180's of a kicker, the coach had me doing fronts off my toes.

When I went to jumping off my heals, it was a breeze and so easy...

Doing front 1's on the ground from me toes, does indeed land me on my heals and I stay on track...

Jibfreak, 

I'm guessing that's what the instructor is heading to, getting me to "Hardway" onto boxes...??? maybe...


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## Jed (May 11, 2011)

KillerDave said:


> Hey Jed,
> 
> When I was learning 180's of a kicker, the coach had me doing fronts off my toes.
> 
> ...


Honestly I'm not really sure why the coach had you doing that, especially off a jump first. It should always be learnt on the ground first so people can get a handle of how rotation works, how to time carve and body rotation etc. etc.

That said, freestyle is probably one of the weakest areas for a large majority of instructors, so it wouldn't surprise me if your instructor was just teaching from a limited knowledge base. Even in Whistler I can count on my hands the number of snowboard instructors with high level freestyle knowledge/skills.

It's a little rare for snowboard instructors to be high level freestyle riders as well, since it tends to be a different skill than freeriding and high level rotation/spin knowledge is just something that most snowboarders won't really know until they spend a lot of time in the park.


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## KillerDave (Mar 11, 2013)

Jed said:


> Honestly I'm not really sure why the coach had you doing that, especially off a jump first. It should always be learnt on the ground first so people can get a handle of how rotation works, how to time carve and body rotation etc. etc.
> 
> That said, freestyle is probably one of the weakest areas for a large majority of instructors, so it wouldn't surprise me if your instructor was just teaching from a limited knowledge base. Even in Whistler I can count on my hands the number of snowboard instructors with high level freestyle knowledge/skills.
> 
> It's a little rare for snowboard instructors to be high level freestyle riders as well, since it tends to be a different skill than freeriding and high level rotation/spin knowledge is just something that most snowboarders won't really know until they spend a lot of time in the park.



Maybe I need to hook up with you if I ever get to BC??? ;-)


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## Jed (May 11, 2011)

KillerDave said:


> Maybe I need to hook up with you if I ever get to BC??? ;-)


Check out my free trick tip program in my signature - the free lessons aren't jump focused, but the first lesson does walk you through a lot of the basic parts of spinning, especially the last trick tip on flat ground 270s (upper body rotation etc. etc).


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## stillz (Jan 5, 2010)

Found a video of this maneuver, along with a bunch of other AASI drills. Check out 1:48-2:25. Vail Snowboarding with Sando - YouTube

The rider goes through his toeside carves with a bit of pre-wind in his upper body. He establishes the rotational momentum with the upper body just before the jump. Once in the air, the legs come around to match the upper body. Ideally you can link these together without ever losing your carve, but it requires precision. The other side of this coin is linking heelside carves with a backside rotation, which is scarier than it is difficult.


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## KillerDave (Mar 11, 2013)

Jed said:


> Check out my free trick tip program in my signature - the free lessons aren't jump focused, but the first lesson does walk you through a lot of the basic parts of spinning, especially the last trick tip on flat ground 270s (upper body rotation etc. etc).


Thanks Jed, I will check them out....


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## KillerDave (Mar 11, 2013)

stillz said:


> Found a video of this maneuver, along with a bunch of other AASI drills. Check out 1:48-2:25. Vail Snowboarding with Sando - YouTube
> 
> The rider goes through his toeside carves with a bit of pre-wind in his upper body. He establishes the rotational momentum with the upper body just before the jump. Once in the air, the legs come around to match the upper body. Ideally you can link these together without ever losing your carve, but it requires precision. The other side of this coin is linking heelside carves with a backside rotation, which is scarier than it is difficult.


Hey Stills,

That's exactly what I'm doing! only not as fluid! Lol
Thanks for the vid!


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## KillerDave (Mar 11, 2013)

Ok, so I went out again tonight and hit this trick some more.... definitely much more fluid this time, linking them like in the video.... not quite as good but it was less effort so I must be doing something right???

I think I will try to get someone to film me next time and I'll post it....


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## stillz (Jan 5, 2010)

Fluid is good, less effort is good. Sounds like you're getting somewhere!


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## KillerDave (Mar 11, 2013)

stillz said:


> Fluid is good, less effort is good. Sounds like you're getting somewhere!


I think so Stills???

The only problem is, the slope is indoor and it was in very poor condition....
BIG ice patches and what snow there was, very thin... I don't think it was so good for this kind of trick...??? does that sound like an excuse???

Maybe it just didn't give me much confidence... :-/


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## Jed (May 11, 2011)

KillerDave said:


> I think so Stills???
> 
> The only problem is, the slope is indoor and it was in very poor condition....
> BIG ice patches and what snow there was, very thin... I don't think it was so good for this kind of trick...??? does that sound like an excuse???
> ...


It's mostly in your head. 180s and 360s can be done on pretty much anything when you get the timing and technique down.

Timing is pretty much everything when it comes to spinning.


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## KillerDave (Mar 11, 2013)

OK,
So it's an excuse... lol...

I'm sure that's all it is, I'll grow a pair and hit it next time I'm out.

Thanks Jed!



Jed said:


> It's mostly in your head. 180s and 360s can be done on pretty much anything when you get the timing and technique down.
> 
> Timing is pretty much everything when it comes to spinning.


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