# Skidded turns vs Turns?



## onthefence (Dec 16, 2010)

I learned to do toeside turns during my last visit to the mountain, and now I can do linked turns. But I do not know if I am doing "real" turns or just skidded turns. What is the difference and how can I tell which one I am doing? Is a "real" non-skidded turn just the same thing as a carve?


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## gjsnowboarder (Sep 1, 2009)

Skidded turns are real turns. Carve turns are real turns. It just depends on how your board travels across the snow. With a carve turn you are riding the edge with the nose and tail of the board following the same path. A skidded turn is where the nose and tail of the board travel in different paths creating a skid or crescent moon shape in the snow. Just work on the rhythm and size of your turns for now and don't worry about carve or skidded until they feel really comfortable.


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## onthefence (Dec 16, 2010)

So, just to be clear there is no type of turn other than Skidded and Carved, correct?


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## Deven (Dec 31, 2010)

A "real" turn, or I guess a better way of putting it is a "proper" turn, is initiated with your front foot and followed through with your back foot after the turns been initiated. A skidded turn is mostly initiated with your back foot. Thats at least how I was taught. For a proper turn you put pressure on your toe or heel respectively and once the edge cuts the snow and you start to turn you briefly add some pressure to the respective edge of your back foot to finish the carve. However, a skidded turn is often done with the weight mostly on the front foot and initiating the turn with the toe/heel of your back foot.... which, as you'll learn pretty quickly, gives a MUCH less controlled turn. Hope that helps out


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## gjsnowboarder (Sep 1, 2009)

Deven said:


> A "real" turn, or I guess a better way of putting it is a "proper" turn, is initiated with your front foot and followed through with your back foot after the turns been initiated. A skidded turn is mostly initiated with your back foot. Thats at least how I was taught. For a proper turn you put pressure on your toe or heel respectively and once the edge cuts the snow and you start to turn you briefly add some pressure to the respective edge of your back foot to finish the carve. However, a skidded turn is often done with the weight mostly on the front foot and initiating the turn with the toe/heel of your back foot.... which, as you'll learn pretty quickly, gives a MUCH less controlled turn. Hope that helps out


Regardless of the type of turning you are doing the front foot should always initiate the turn. A skidded turn means you are using more rotation which will cause a pivot in the board like a fan spinning. Turning will typically always be front foot initates back foot finishes. Otherwise it is like driving a forklift. slow to respond and more difficult to steer then a car.


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## gjsnowboarder (Sep 1, 2009)

onthefence said:


> So, just to be clear there is no type of turn other than Skidded and Carved, correct?


 There are other manners of turning. But as far as shape made in the snow not really. I suggest doing a search on the site for cross-over and cross-under. Which are differences in where a person's CM(center of mass) moves in relation to the board.


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## gjsnowboarder (Sep 1, 2009)

Snowolf said:


> Don`t know if it can actually be classified as a type of turn, but I was thinking that Leapers might be a possible third type...what do you think...:dunno:


 On the first post oh heck yeah. That and nose manuals. we also try them in the bumps which is hilarious to watch. A lot of our clinics at our mountain are about having fun and exploring movements on the board. Which then we tie back into our regular riding and teaching. Keeps them fresh and interesting.

I'm not so sure. Seeing as on a Leaper(if i'm thinking of the same task) you are usually riding a carve or skid through the control phase of the turn it is more or less just a more ballistic way to change edges at the transition vs a manner of turn in relation to board path in the snow. I think Dolphin turns might get closer to being a different manner of turn as far as board path.


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## LvdT (Jan 13, 2011)

Can you both explain those Dolphin and Leaper techniques/terms. Probably I've done them myself but don't know the name of it, want to read about it more


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## gjsnowboarder (Sep 1, 2009)

LvdT said:


> Can you both explain those Dolphin and Leaper techniques/terms. Probably I've done them myself but don't know the name of it, want to read about it more


Dolphin Turn : 
This is making an ollie movement to change edges in a turn down the hill. Example: heelside nose lifts of snow first then heelside tail , then nose toeside lands and then tail toeside and so forth. Think of a dolphin jumping out of the water.

Leaper Turn:
Jumping to initiate each turn. Usually popping off of both feet and land on your new edge with both feet.


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## Breckenridge (Oct 1, 2009)

There are a million ways to turn a snowboard, and no way to put it in words......


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## jlm1976 (Feb 26, 2009)

Snowolf said:


> :laugh:
> 
> Actually no. There are only 3 ways that a snowboard turns; Pivot, Tilt and Twist and we put this into words in every lesson. This isn't rocket science but even if it was there are only 4 fundamentals of flight that effect the Space Shuttle; Lift, Gravity, Thrust and Drag......


Actually, I agree with the first part of breck's statement. Pivot, tilt, and twist individually aren't very effective ways to turn the board. It's how we blend those things together combined with pressure that effect how the board rides. Those 4 performances can be blended an infinite number of ways depending on the conditions and the desire/ability/perfered style of the rider.
Even with beginners where we generally teach twist...don't we also talk about weight distribution(pressure). Also, we twist the board to create pivot and tilt still comes into play. None of the performances exist in a vacuum.....


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## gjsnowboarder (Sep 1, 2009)

jlm1976 said:


> Actually, I agree with the first part of breck's statement. Pivot, tilt, and twist individually aren't very effective ways to turn the board. It's how we blend those things together combined with pressure that effect how the board rides. Those 4 performances can be blended an infinite number of ways depending on the conditions and the desire/ability/perfered style of the rider.
> Even with beginners where we generally teach twist...don't we also talk about weight distribution(pressure). Also, we twist the board to create pivot and tilt still comes into play. None of the performances exist in a vacuum.....


Actually the conversation was start off about paths the snowboard takes through the snow. There maybe an infinite number of ways to combine the movements and board interactions with the snow. But it breaks down to a simple few ways the board actually goes through a turn. Style comes from the way we blend our movements and use the interactions with board, snow, features.


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## Deven (Dec 31, 2010)

Snowolf said:


> *@Deven*
> 
> Well, that is more "ruddering" which is a really bad way to ride. No turn should be initiated with the back foot.
> 
> ...


Oh, know that turns should always be initiated by the front foot I was just referring to how I was ORIGINALLY taiught how to ride by a friend and then I took a few lessons and the way I was taught was referred to as "skidded turns" but I agree that no turn should be initiated by the back foot as you have minimal control that way. I must've just misunderstood. Sorry about that


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## jlm1976 (Feb 26, 2009)

QUOTE=gjsnowboarder;372866]Actually the conversation was start off about paths the snowboard takes through the snow. There maybe an infinite number of ways to combine the movements and board interactions with the snow. But it breaks down to a simple few ways the board actually goes through a turn. Style comes from the way we blend our movements and use the interactions with board, snow, features.[/QUOTE]

I agree with you to a certain extent. For turning, the board is either skidding or carving. Those are pretty much your options. That's true. As far as how to make those two things happen, there are tons of differen ways.



gjsnowboarder said:


> Regardless of the type of turning you are doing the front foot should always initiate the turn.


I agree at a beginner/lower intermediate level. But at the upper level, I'm not so sure that's true.


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## gjsnowboarder (Sep 1, 2009)

jlm1976 said:


> I agree at a beginner/lower intermediate level. But at the upper level, I'm not so sure that's true.


It especially holds true at higher levels. In trees/bumps/steeps etc. and areas of expert terrain if you are steering from the back of board you typically become later in your turns and compromise your positioning on the hill. However advance riders can steer from the back board when variable terrain rears its ugly head to give them time to get re-centered. There are also specific riding tasks that call for steering from the back of the board like butters, manuals. Relying on back foot steering without front foot for the majority of a person's riding is typically not a sign of an advance rider.


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## jlm1976 (Feb 26, 2009)

I agree 100% that carve turns and skidded turns are equals and one is not superior to the other. That is why I didn’t get involved in the thread about why so few people carve. 

What I do disagree with is this idea that all “proper” skidded turns are initiated with the front foot. I feel both feet are equally involved in turn initiation once you start talking about steeps, trees, and bumps. For all of those types of terrain, initiating a turn via twist is much too slow. It is faster to release the edge with both feet and as soon as the new edge is set you can start to control speed, steer the board, and adjust pressure as the terrain/turn dictates.

In the case of steeps, if you move your weight downhill using knee and hip flexion while maintaining pressure on the uphill edge with your ankles, as soon as your new edge hits the snow, you can immediately pressure it by extending the legs and then start your movements to pivot the board and control your speed. This allows you to better work the top of your turn. I feel any twist in what I described above would get in the way of being able to move your weight downhill ahead of your edge change. Basically you are changing edges exactly the same as a carved turn but not going as high on edge and adding pivot once the edge is set.
In the case of bumps/trees I don’t see how twist to initiate a turn is beneficial. Changing edges with both feet right away allows you to immediately start pivoting the board with both feet. In bumps, you are also trying to keep the front end light pressure wise, so how would twisting the board torsionally help out when there is more pressure on the middle and back sections of the edge? 

My overall point is that statements like “All well excecuted skidded turns begin are initiated with a torsional movement of the front foot” isn’t true for more difficult terrain because both feet are involved all the time and as I said above, actively twisting the board is not the ideal choice for changing edges. It’ll work ok, but I feel there are better options out there.


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## gjsnowboarder (Sep 1, 2009)

jlm1976 said:


> What I do disagree with is this idea that all “proper” skidded turns are initiated with the front foot. I feel both feet are equally involved in turn initiation once you start talking about steeps, trees, and bumps. For all of those types of terrain, initiating a turn via twist is much too slow. It is faster to release the edge with both feet and as soon as the new edge is set you can start to control speed, steer the board, and adjust pressure as the terrain/turn dictates.
> *Your body from a phycial standpoint can be spilt in half at the waist and straight down the middle seperating right and left halfs. This creates four quadrants of movement.In this case we are going to mainly talk about the lower two quadrants(lead foot, rear foot) due to the way that we stand on a board. *
> *Your board as it travels trough space in a regular turn(regardless of skid or carve) goes nose first and then tail. The board also has a sidecut or circular radius that is cut into along its length. This sidecut cause four main contact point with the snow. Twist of the board allows us to use up to 2 of the contact points a the same time, either on the same side of the board or 1 on each side. Tilt of the board only allows us to engage both on the same side at the same time.*
> *With this detail of body it is more effecient and effective to use the first half of the board and body to create movement since it the first part that enters into space that you are traveling too. It doesn't meaning that we ignore the latter half it just means the first half while moving has a greater importance initially.*
> ...


I do disagree with your overall point. I hope that I have adequately explained why it is EVEN more important to be active with your front foot steering in harder terrain.


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## Breckenridge (Oct 1, 2009)

I appreciate SW's opinion and willingness to advise beginners,but.. I disagree generally with the way lessons are taught, especially to beginners. Instructors have been taught to believe that there is one system to teach snowboarding, or at least forced to accept the current teaching methods in order to get and keep a job. (nothing personal) I'm sure students are far better off with every instructor joining a trade group and teaching the same way, but that doesnt mean those methods are universally accepted, the best, or most efficient way to accomplish the task. There are more ways to turn a snowboard than have been presented here, and my point was that they are varied and complicated enough as to make it impossible to convey without physically showing somebody.The over-simplification for teaching purposes, does no justice to the facts, even if it helps beginners learn. I don't say this to anger or inflame anybody, but if we are going to just say "carve,skid,twist" and call it a day..... I disagree.


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