# Mammoth Tree Well Death



## Flick Montana

Ugh. I HATE hearing about this kind of stuff. Tree wells are the black holes of the snowboarding world. RIP to her and best wishes to the family.


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## killclimbz

Black holes of the snow sports world. Skiers are in just as much danger from them as snowboarders. 

This is the first season in a long time that tree wells have been a serious danger out here. Easier to spot, but no less deadly. 

Sorry to hear about this. May she RIP.


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## linvillegorge

Not gonna lie, tree wells scare the hell out of me. There has been at least two tree well deaths here in CO this year. One at Wolf Creek and one at Steamboat, there may have been more.

I fell in one at Breck a couple of weeks ago. If it had been deeper, I would've been in trouble. I went in head first, but it wasn't deep enough to cover me up. The thought of what could have happened definitely occurred to me.


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## killclimbz

They should scare the hell out of you. It's deadly shit.


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## zakk

this is why I don't ride in ANY tree line alone. Too much can go wrong.


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## Guest

This is the first I have heard of tree wells. My heart goes out to the family and friends.


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## ShredLife

i lost a friend to a tree a few years ago. no helmet. he was killed on impact.


these asphyxiation deaths are really scary to think about. i've been upside down in treewells before and dropped thru snowed over thermal vents. 

wear a helmet and know how to get out of your bindings blind. and ride with friends.

my heart goes out to another tragic loss in the mountains


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## buggravy

K1tt3n5 said:


> This is the first I have heard of tree wells. My heart goes out to the family and friends.


I learned of tree wells for the first time when I joined this forum a couple years ago, and am very grateful for that. Odd that I never did in my many years of skiing, but maybe it was just because I was younger, or resources like this weren't as prevalent back then. Anyway, I was riding alone this past Sunday, as I do a lot. The mountain had received 10 or so inches of new snow, and I was there early. I got to the top of one run just as it opened, and it had been groomed, so I ducked into the trees pretty quickly. So Cal mountains have received upwards of 10 ft of snow this year, so tree wells very much exist. I proceeded with a level of caution and awareness I wouldn't have if not for this forum. Thanks SBF.


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## linvillegorge

Anyone have any general tips for spotting or avoiding tree wells?


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## legallyillegal

linvillegorge said:


> Anyone have any general tips for spotting or avoiding tree wells?


They usually form around trees.


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## buggravy

Probably worthy of note here, is this actually occurred in bounds, as best I understand it. Chair 12 at Mammoth does come close to an unpatrolled area, but I'm pretty sure she was in bounds. Dharma, correct me if I'm wrong. What a tragedy.


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## linvillegorge

legallyillegal said:


> They usually form around trees.


Brilliant! :laugh:

What I meant was are there any visual cues to identify which trees could be sheltering potentially deadly wells? I'm not aware of any.


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## Flick Montana

linvillegorge said:


> Brilliant! :laugh:
> 
> What I meant was are there any visual cues to identify which trees could be sheltering potentially deadly wells? I'm not aware of any.


ALL trees can form tree wells. If you don't want to risk falling into one, stay away from trees.

I've fallen into a tree well out of bounds at Timberline once and it took me several minutes to get out and I was exhausted. If it had been a bigger one or I had injured myself on the tree, I hate to think what might have happened.

Educated yourself if you board out of bounds: Tree Well & Deep Snow Safety


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## killclimbz

In Colorado tree wells are generally easy to spot. You can see the inverted cone that forms around the base. In the PNW with the deeper snow pack that often times goes right up to the branches not as much. They are often hidden by the branches. 

The rule of thumb is to give the base of trees the widest berth possible. Keep in mind riding into a tree well is not the danger. It's falling into one head first where you can't right side yourself up. In the Maritime (West Coast) climates these things can get super deep, making it impossible to do that. 

In Colorado, tree wells are rarely 10ft deep. Still a problem none the less. Also, well traveled tree runs at the resort and in the back country tend to mash the well down to non existent. Only in the true wild snow areas do you have to be mindful.


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## dharmashred

buggravy said:


> Probably worthy of note here, is this actually occurred in bounds, as best I understand it. Chair 12 at Mammoth does come close to an unpatrolled area, but I'm pretty sure she was in bounds. Dharma, correct me if I'm wrong. What a tragedy.


You're right, she was totally in bounds, but yes, Chair 12 comes somewhat close (probably only 2 trails away from being out of bounds). Chair 12 is a backside chair, and Secret Spot is surrounded by trees, she was probably only 30-40 feet off of away from the trail. 

I took Chair 12 on Sunday (before I heard about this), spotted a great line through the trees and decided to hike up just a short bit, an epic pow run for me, then suddenly hit a really deep spot and just sank, slid etc. etc., and found myself stuck up to my waist first, then sinking to my chest next to a tree. The powder was very soft and dry underneath. It took me about 2 hours total to get all the way out and back to the trail. I had already read the tree well safety info in the sticky, and I can't tell you enough how helpful it was. Of course, I was not in that deep or that tight, but had I not read that I wouldn't have had the slightest idea what to do. Later I found out just how close I was to where she was found, and that several others had to dig themselves out or be dug out by ski patrol. I realize now just how stupid and irresponsible of me that was. 

She was an expert rider, she was totally in bounds and wearing a helmet. Although, a helmet becomes obsolete if you are suffocating in a tree well and riding alone. I can't even imagine what her last moment was like. Also, she has a 13 yo and a 15 yo that have lost their mother at such a crucial age. She died doing what she loved, but it is completely and utterly tragic...

RIP Rider.


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## ShredLife

dharmashred said:


> a helmet becomes obsolete if you are suffocating in a tree well and riding alone.
> 
> RIP Rider.


respectfully, 

alot of these deaths happen when a rider loses consciousness from a head injury sustained from falling headfirst into a tree, then suffocates. helmets can only help your chances.


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## burritosandsnow

Tree wells are also in many ways dependent upon the weather as well.or Here in Utah we do get some nasty tree wells from time to time but THIS season weve never had a huge dump of snow to make them a potential threat. Mammoth has gotten pounded this year with some really big storms that they are not used to getting. Even for an experienced mtn person it was a deviation from the normal conditions and probably something MOST people in Mammoth are not even thoughtful of. Sympathies to the family for sure.


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## killclimbz

ShredLife said:


> respectfully,
> 
> alot of these deaths happen when a rider loses consciousness from a head injury sustained from falling headfirst into a tree, then suffocates. helmets can only help your chances.


I'm not so sure that is the case. I'm sure some people have knocked themselves out, but from what I have read it's the fact that they can't get out. The more you struggle the more the snow collapses around you making suffocate. Riding with an Avalung would be more advantageous than a helmet in a tree well situation.


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## ShredLife

well, i'm not super interested in getting into a big back and forth about it... but i do know of deaths that it has contributed to on some mountains out here.


one thing that i will say from firsthand experience - and i am not saying this to down anyone or lay any blame, this has nothing to do with the OP, just my experience in life - if you are going to snowboard or ski hard, especially in treed or rocky areas, in fairness to yourself, family, friends, and anyone you will leave behind; please wear a helmet and give yourself the best chance to minimize your risk. it doesn't matter how good of a rider you are.

i'll be done with the issue now, said my say. feel free to disagree if you like.


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## killclimbz

If you look through any of my pictures I am always wearing a helmet when I am riding. I also almost exclusively ride backcountry so NARSID dangers are a big concern along with traveling safely in avalanche terrain. 

People certainly do get knocked out, the Steamboat tree well death was that sort of case. So it does happen, I think I clarified that. Just from reading over the info I've found on NARSID deaths that is not close to the majority of the deaths. 

Helmets are a good idea for multiple reasons and NARSID's are a creepy way to go...


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## dharmashred

ShredLife said:


> well, i'm not super interested in getting into a big back and forth about it... but i do know of deaths that it has contributed to on some mountains out here.
> 
> 
> one thing that i will say from firsthand experience - and i am not saying this to down anyone or lay any blame, this has nothing to do with the OP, just my experience in life - if you are going to snowboard or ski hard, especially in treed or rocky areas, in fairness to yourself, family, friends, and anyone you will leave behind; please wear a helmet and give yourself the best chance to minimize your risk. it doesn't matter how good of a rider you are.
> 
> i'll be done with the issue now, said my say. feel free to disagree if you like.


No back and forth here, merely a dialogue. IMHO, the best chance to minimize your risk is education. Snow safety education and the proper gear. When riding serious shit that most just talk/dream about, I'm not so sure the helmet is necessarily the 'end all be all' on that list. That being said, I absolutely ride with a helmet. No one disagrees with that, merely adding to the list of safety precautions necessary to endeavor into ever-changing elements of the mountain. They are alive all around us, we are merely humble visitors.


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## kysnowboarder

I am sorry to hear about the accident. Best wishes to family and friends. 

I have to admit I did not know about tree wells until I read this thread. I am a bit beside my self after completing a solo trip to telluride last week. I did do a couple of tree runs with the instructor but made a decision not to go into a tree run by my self because I was afraid of hitting a tree and no one being able to find me. Now that I know about tree wells I realize that I defiantly made the right decision. Some of those runs were pretty narrow to.. really couldn't give the trees a wide birth.


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## killclimbz

Somtimes you can't give them a wide berth. Though if the trees are that close together, you probably don't have tree wells. There needs to be some spacing around the tree for a tree well to form. Tight, close out trees can't form tree wells in my experience. Maybe it's different in the coastal ranges, but I don't think so.

If they are spaced enough to comfortably snowboard through they can form tree wells.


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## Guest

I have fallen into a very small tree well. Luckily the powder was nice and dry and I was able to swim out of it ok. Took a shitload of energy to get out of it. I was riding with my guy, but he had passed me. Thankfully, the well was only about 2 feet or so. I couldn't imagine plummeting into a really deep well, knowing that you could suffocate.


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## Mysticfalcon

Snowolf said:


> The basic definition of the tree well is, as Killclimbz pointed out, the deep inverted cone around the base of the tree. If in deep pow and tree wells are a concern, the general rule of thumb is stay outside of the branch cover.
> 
> Unfortunately, another even more scary "trap" occurs by "snow bridging". This is a common thing in the PNW where the snow is wet and sticky and comes down at rapid rates and in large quantities. Small conifer saplings, tightly grouped will form deep hollow pockets under their branches and allow the snow to pile up. You can fall through these "bridges" and end up tangled in the branches with a hell of a lot of snow falling down on top of you.
> 
> The only sign that can be spotted is an unnatural doming or humping of the snow pack that does not fit the natural topography. Another warning sign is seeing a lot of small pine tops poking through the snow that are tightly grouped.
> 
> I fell through one of these once in Jacks Woods at MHM and I got so tangled in the branches, that I needed help to get my board off to "swim" my way out.
> 
> Another danger is being in the bottom of any steep sided gully. My friend and I were riding on a very deep pow day and he dropped into this ravine and bogged down in the bottom. He tried to climb out, but the more he tried, the more snow slid down onto him. I had dropped in a little lower and was able to swim out down canyon. In the end, we got ski patrol to drop a rope and pull him out. Watch out for these "terrain traps" as they can be bad news even without an avalanche.



This is exactly what I found at the Jay Meet. We were basically ridding over the tops of trees and around the tips of the tallest ones that stuck out of the snow. I speed checked and dropped straight down well over my head. I had to untangle myself and toss my board out of the hole and then climb up the branches out of the hole.


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## Zee

Tragic  Poor kids


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## bbissell

Mysticfalcon said:


> This is exactly what I found at the Jay Meet. We were basically ridding over the tops of trees and around the tips of the tallest ones that stuck out of the snow. I speed checked and dropped straight down well over my head. I had to untangle myself and toss my board out of the hole and then climb up the branches out of the hole.


That is crazy.


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## Mysticfalcon

Fortunately it was at the East Coast Snowboardingforum.com meet so there were plenty of members watching me struggle out and laughing at my expense.


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## Mooz

Mysticfalcon said:


> Fortunately it was at the East Coast Snowboardingforum.com meet so there were plenty of members watching me struggle out and laughing at my expense.


To be fair, he wasn't buried as in no sunlight and no air. He just had to climb UP in order to get out. Fun to watch, not so fun to experience haha.

Tree wells however scare the fuck out of me now. Same meet different trail I got separated from the group and fell backwards head first into one. The moment you realize you're upside down and have no oxygen is scary as hell. Digging a hole so you can inhale only to have it fill instantly with falling snow from somewhere (im assuming the tree itself) giving you no air and a mouthful of snow is FUCKING scary as hell. 

It was only 10-20 seconds before I was able to take a breath but they were a terrifying 10-20 seconds. Digging myself out took I think 20-30 minutes (I unstrapped to try and right myself and then discovered how deep the tree well was). Being up to your shoulders in snow with your board out of reach sucks.


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## MunkySpunk

Mysticfalcon said:


> there were plenty of members watching me struggle out and laughing at my expense.


But they'd NEVER do anything like that. 


Mooz said:


> Being up to your shoulders in snow with your board out of reach sucks.


I got stuck, but it wasn't anything major thankfully. Stosh hung around and, to his credit, VERY patiently waited for me to dig myself out and swim to a spot to strap back in.


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## baldylox

Mooz said:


> Tree wells however scare the fuck out of me now. Same meet different trail I got separated from the group and fell backwards head first into one. The moment you realize you're upside down and have no oxygen is scary as hell. Digging a hole so you can inhale only to have it fill instantly with falling snow from somewhere (im assuming the tree itself) giving you no air and a mouthful of snow is FUCKING scary as hell.
> 
> It was only 10-20 seconds before I was able to take a breath but they were a terrifying 10-20 seconds. Digging myself out took I think 20-30 minutes (I unstrapped to try and right myself and then discovered how deep the tree well was). Being up to your shoulders in snow with your board out of reach sucks.


I confess I chuckled a bit. I was about 20 yards behind you. It looked like a giant CD sliding into a tree shaped stereo. :laugh:


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## Mooz

cifex said:


> I confess I chuckled a bit. I was about 20 yards behind you. It looked like a giant CD sliding into a tree shaped stereo. :laugh:


Oh that was the prelude to the tree well later. I think that instance was a warning that I ignored.


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## thetraveler

not sure if any of the experienced guys are still reading this thread but this question is to you...

this is the first time i have heard of tree wells and by the looks of some of the other replies i am not the only one. everyone talks about avalanches and falling in bad places but you don't hear much about other dangers out there. is there anything else we should be aware of and educate ourselves on? what is a good resource for this?


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## NWBoarder

thetraveler said:


> not sure if any of the experienced guys are still reading this thread but this question is to you...
> 
> this is the first time i have heard of tree wells and by the looks of some of the other replies i am not the only one. everyone talks about avalanches and falling in bad places but you don't hear much about other dangers out there. is there anything else we should be aware of and educate ourselves on? what is a good resource for this?


This right here.....Tree Well & Deep Snow Safety


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