# Heelside carving problem!?!



## Donutz (May 12, 2010)

This thread has been discussing this issue, more or less: http://www.snowboardingforum.com/tips-tricks-snowboard-coaching/52553-over-turning-heel-side.html

Also, I have this exact problem, but I've figured out how to correct it. First, when I turh heelside I'm turning _more_, i.e. getting farther from the fall line before starting the next toeside turn. I think I'm trying to bleed off more speed when I can see the slope. Second, I'm going more backseat during the heelside turn. These habits are either caused by or cause my reluctance to commit my upper body to the next toeside turn, i.e. leaning into it. And possibly most important, the problem is much diminished when I make a point of doing the flexion (pulling in the board) when going across the fall line and extending at the outsides of the turn. It might be that this simply takes my mind of the slope. Dunno.

Yesterday on Earls I made a point on several tries of trying to correct all these problems. It all came together one one particular run, and it was like magic. No chatter, totally in control. Beauty.


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## Slush Puppie (Aug 15, 2011)

I've noticed (and been told) that your toe side naturally has much more 'suspension' due to the extra flex available through your toes/feet/ankles on that side. Whereas your heels only have a straight line to transmit forces up through your legs. So the answer is to keep your knees slightly looser heel-side to actively soak up the extra forces and allow to edge to run true. 

Of course that's all aside from any other differences in technique/turn shape that might exist in your style.


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## poutanen (Dec 22, 2011)

Donutz said:


> This thread has been discussing this issue, more or less: http://www.snowboardingforum.com/tips-tricks-snowboard-coaching/52553-over-turning-heel-side.html


Yeah I read that thread but it was more about the OP taking a tighter line and over turning forcing a slider turn (I think)... I'm trying to do equal radius turns on equal surfaces and while my toe side bites the heel side chatters. It is an odd surface of 2" snow over hardpack, which normally I chatter on both edges over. This board is the first time I've been able to really bite hard on the toe side, and I'm trying to do that on the heel side too! :yahoo:



Slush Puppie said:


> I've noticed (and been told) that your toe side naturally has much more 'suspension' due to the extra flex available through your toes/feet/ankles on that side. Whereas your heels only have a straight line to transmit forces up through your legs. So the answer is to keep your knees slightly looser heel-side to actively soak up the extra forces and allow to edge to run true.


That might just be it... On my toe side I concentrate on driving my knees towards the snow to get the edge angled, on my heel side maybe I've got to concentrate on getting my butt towards the snow and keeping the knees more heavily bent (I already ride in a fairly crouched position when I'm cooking)...

I should note that it was only one part of the hill this was really pronounced. For most of the runs I was fine on both edges, but there's one section where the hardpack is really hard and I'm not sure what surprised me more, the heelside edge chatter or the fact that my toeside was able to bite into it!

I may make some binding adjustments next time I notice it and report back here...

edit: Just read a thread on bomberonline (hardboot forum) about heelside chatter and there were various responses about body positioning, cant angle, etc. etc. but it seemed the general consensus was more weight on the front foot. I did try weighting the front yesterday but I may go back to the drawing board and try to heavily weight the front at turn in. What bugs me is that the toe side carve is so easy and natural, I just fall over and the thing hooks, seems like I have to work at the heel side.

BTW I'm trying to do something similar to euro carving, with a BX style board here. Short sharp carves I'm fine, long fast carves I'm fine, it's that deep euro S carve at a moderate pace that is causing the chatter.


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## Donutz (May 12, 2010)

In my case, I've had the problem on 3 different boards, so I can't blame it on the equipment.


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## bseracka (Nov 14, 2011)

Just a thought, but in the past I've experienced this both toe and heel side at different times. I found that my bindings were to far toe, or heel side reducing the weight/pressure on the edge I was getting chatter on.


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## poutanen (Dec 22, 2011)

Snowolf said:


> So, one possibility here is that you are doing everything perfectly but when you hit that one section, you simply exceed the performance limitation of the equipment at the speed and rate of turn you are attempting. If this is the case you have three options. You can learn to live with a bit of chatter, you can slow down or you can decrease your rate of turn. Keep in mind that a snowboard is never going be 100%, there are subtle irregularities that will also cause it to behave slightly different on one edge or the other. These subtle differences will only be noticed at the performance threshold.


Thanks for the advice!

Update time: Went out today to the same resort I had the issue at last weekend. Conditions were very similar, temps very similar. This time I started on an easier run to get my legs into it. At a moderate speed I started doing some great heelside and toeside carves with no issues. 

Brought the speed up more and no issues. Went onto a different run and there was the chatter again but only when my speed is up and the pitch steep (i.e. 30 deg or so). I lowered my speed just a TOUCH and it went away. Also I noticed on the easier runs that one my heelside if I really focused on having my knees QUITE bent (i.e. they'd be pretty close to a right angle at the joint) and pressing through the board, it was very comfortable. Got slightly lazy in my stance and back was the chatter.

So here's my lesson learned: It's a new board, it has a much longer sidecut radius than anything I've owned before. This allows the board to be on a much steeper angle given the same turning radius. This is going to have my legs at different angles than I'm used to, weight in a different location, etc. And I needed to spend time learning the actual ins and outs of the board. Today was only my 6th day on the board, and I feel like it's taken this long to start to really understand the substantial differences in it, and how to adapt my style for it!

When I went from my last board to the T7, I went from a 153 to a 159, but they were similar shaped boards. Similar sidecut, similar effective edge. This new board has a very different sidecut radius, and almost 20 cm longer effective edge despite being only 1 cm longer than my T7. It's a different animal!

One important thing I've learned is that demo'ing a board might not be the best way to test them. If I had demo'd this board for two runs, I would have walked away. After one day I really liked it (got some great toeside carves out of it on day one), after day 3 and 4 I wanted to kiss it, on day 5 I was frustrated by it (or me) and now after day 6 I can honestly say it's a better board than I am, and I'm learning new things that I haven't learned in 21 years on the snow, and it's taking my riding to the next level! :yahoo::yahoo::yahoo:

Cheers all!


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## KIRKRIDER (Mar 18, 2008)

If you like carving why ride duck? Try bot pos angles..I use +21 + 18 for pure carve, +18 + 12 / +15, +9 for mid and pow days.
That should help you on the heelside... there is a reason why hardbooters ride with very steep positive angles...






poutanen said:


> Well I had a great day out carving yesterday on hardpack that had a light dusting of snow on top of it. Here's my problem... and keep in mind I've been carving for 21 years but I'm on a new board now that's allowing me to get that much closer to the snow! :yahoo:
> 
> Board is almost brand new with 5 days on it: On my toe side I can lay right down and the board digs a trench, I end up carving a fairly short radius deep turn. Then I get on on my heelside and try to lay down an equal carve and I start getting chatter instead of the board digging a trench.
> 
> ...


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## poutanen (Dec 22, 2011)

KIRKRIDER said:


> If you like carving why ride duck? Try bot pos angles..I use +21 + 18 for pure carve, +18 + 12 / +15, +9 for mid and pow days.
> That should help you on the heelside... there is a reason why hardbooters ride with very steep positive angles...


I'm still hanging onto this small glimmer of hope that I may be decent at freestyle tricks one of these days. I actually used to ride with 0 and +15 or so but slowly moved towards symmetrical duck over the years.

With this board I'm thinking about notching it back towards forward stance a few degrees at a time. :icon_scratch:


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## KIRKRIDER (Mar 18, 2008)

poutanen said:


> I'm still hanging onto this small glimmer of hope that I may be decent at freestyle tricks one of these days. I actually used to ride with 0 and +15 or so but slowly moved towards symmetrical duck over the years.
> 
> With this board I'm thinking about notching it back towards forward stance a few degrees at a time. :icon_scratch:



:laugh: Pick one...either park tricks or trenches. start +21 + 18 and see how that feels for carving.


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## poutanen (Dec 22, 2011)

KIRKRIDER said:


> :laugh: Pick one...either park tricks or trenches. start +21 + 18 and see how that feels for carving.


Damn it all I want to do both! Never in the park really though, just off piste jumps...

I'd say 30% of my riding is carving groomers, 30% of my riding is in glades with some powder, 30% of my riding is down technical terrain, steeps, chutes, etc. with LOTS of powder, and 10% is spent trying freestyle tricks in one of the 3 locations.

I was also helping teach my neighbour today who rides regular (I'm goofy :blink so it was nice to be able to ride switch for a while with him.

Guess it can't hurt to try though... The guys over at bomber online just about cast me into the pit when I posted a picture of a Virus with a duck stance!  It IS a freeride board so I think they were a little out of line.


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## ig88 (Jan 3, 2012)

KIRKRIDER said:


> If you like carving why ride duck? Try bot pos angles..I use +21 + 18 for pure carve, +18 + 12 / +15, +9 for mid and pow days.
> That should help you on the heelside... there is a reason why hardbooters ride with very steep positive angles...



I used to have tremendous heelside chatter problems. Recently the problem has improved a lot to the point of almost non-existent ...... but maybe I just have not tried it in even steeper and icier terrains yet. I am trying hard to analyse and single out the most important factor which helped me. But until I am more certain what's has helped me, I don't want to make false suggestions here. I really wish I could nail it down scientifically (and even give a p-value to it, just kidding) to explain what contributed. 

But anyway for the time being ...... I declare I am not an experienced rider at all. Are those boot angles above for alpine borders or are they usable on our typical snowboards? (Suppose we really just want to go out and carve and that's it.)

I have always wanted to know, do alpine borders (hard boot) ever complain about heelside chatters?


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## poutanen (Dec 22, 2011)

ig88 said:


> I have always wanted to know, do alpine borders (hard boot) ever complain about heelside chatters?


YES, big time... So it's not just my angles. Although that could contribute but I'm going to take Snowolfs advice and leave the angles alone for now.

There are multiple threads on a hardbooter forum and the general advice seems to be to focus on getting your weight over the tip on corner entry as much as possible.

What worked for me yesterday was being mindful of my weight, and exaggerating bending my knees even more than I usually do. If I really want to rail a heelside corner I'm entering on the nose, then bending the shit out of my knees and pressing through the turn.

Was putting so much energy into the board I saw my tracks and there was a couple feet between each carve where I wasn't touching the snow at all...


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## ig88 (Jan 3, 2012)

Poutanen. Please post me a link to one of those hardboot forums. I would like to read a little what they like to discuss about in my idle time haha.

Could you kindly remind the new board you are using now, if you have already mentioned it somewhere in the forum earlier.

I understand your frustration. When we heelside chatter people put so much conscious effort into assuming some new body movements upon some advice, just in the hope of getting rid of that chatter and regain some of that steep slope confidence ...... we are pretty miserable, and even more so if we do not get consistent improvements after each run. And at the same time, toeside edge-hold is a piece of cake no matter if you enter the turn hard or mellow.

You were not touching the snow? Care to elaborate?


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## poutanen (Dec 22, 2011)

ig88 said:


> Poutanen. Please post me a link to one of those hardboot forums. I would like to read a little what they like to discuss about in my idle time haha.
> 
> Could you kindly remind the new board you are using now, if you have already mentioned it somewhere in the forum earlier.
> 
> ...


Not sure if I'm allowed to link to another forum on here... I'll post this link as it's really not a competing forum to this one. heelside chatter

The board I'm riding is the Virus Avalanche FLP AFT 160. The effective edge is over 140 cm on it, vs 123 cm or so for the T7 so it REALLY rails. Not as hard as a hardbooter but leaps and bounds over a traditional shaped freeride board.

Not touching the snow meant that I was loading the board enough to actually catch a bit of air when transitioning from edge to edge. I used to do it on the old board too, yesterday was the first time I've really got into it carving turn after turn on the new board. :yahoo:


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## ig88 (Jan 3, 2012)

poutanen said:


> Not sure if I'm allowed to link to another forum on here... I'll post this link as it's really not a competing forum to this one. heelside chatter
> 
> The board I'm riding is the Virus Avalanche FLP AFT 160. The effective edge is over 140 cm on it, vs 123 cm or so for the T7 so it REALLY rails. Not as hard as a hardbooter but leaps and bounds over a traditional shaped freeride board.
> 
> Not touching the snow meant that I was loading the board enough to actually catch a bit of air when transitioning from edge to edge. I used to do it on the old board too, yesterday was the first time I've really got into it carving turn after turn on the new board. :yahoo:


I just clicked your link to view your new board. Very beautiful. I did not know it's an alpine board just hearing the name of your board. So there was some misunderstanding on my part about your board. From my limited experience, I really have not come across an alpine boarder not using positive boot angles on both feet, let alone a gross duck stance. Maybe I have not observed enough. Again, don't exactly take my word for it, but it may be worth your while to consider the more standard alpine board boot angles, rather than keeping the change to an even later date. Cheers.

Do keep reporting back about your heelside chatters, even if they for some reason disappear altogether. At least I want to know what you did.


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## poutanen (Dec 22, 2011)

ig88 said:


> I just clicked your link to view your new board. Very beautiful. I did not know it's an alpine board just hearing the name of your board. So there was some misunderstanding on my part about your board. From my limited experience, I really have not come across an alpine boarder not using positive boot angles on both feet, let alone a gross duck stance. Maybe I have not observed enough. Again, don't exactly take my word for it, but it may be worth your while to consider the more standard alpine board boot angles, rather than keeping the change to an even later date. Cheers.
> 
> Do keep reporting back about your heelside chatters, even if they for some reason disappear altogether. At least I want to know what you did.


Actually earlier in this thread I did make some progress... Here's the post http://www.snowboardingforum.com/557202-post8.html

The board I got isn't an alpine board it's actually designed to be a freeride board for on and off-piste. The builder primarily does alpine boards and skis though, so its construction is more carving oriented than a typical freeride board. Also the shape is boardercross oriented, with very squared off tips, long effective edge, etc. In another one of my threads I actually compared the specs as I measured them vs. my T7 and it's wider than the T7, so not a narrow carving board by any means!

Thanks again all, it seems like it was just a minor technique issue that is working itself out as I put more days on the board! :yahoo:


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## Donutz (May 12, 2010)

Today while I was hitting Unicorn I thought about Snowolf's comments and realized that I _wasn't_ shifting my weight back on heelside turns. I started paying close attention on a few turns and realized that my technique was significantly different for heelside and toeside, even allowing for the obvious asymmetric issues. So I worked a couple of turns making a point of shifting the weight as I came across the fall line, et voila! I could _feel_ the board lock in like I'd just snapped a binding shut. Damn it's scary how subtle some things can be and still make a big difference.


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