# Staying on edge



## Grizz (Nov 10, 2008)

Totally normal and exactly for the reason you state. Being even a tiny bit on edge will allow the board to stabilize and feel locked on. The "catch an edge" feeling you have when the board is running flat is the side cut of either edge trying to engage. Better to pick one and stick with it than have one suddenly grab when you are running flat. 

The only time your board should be flat is if you are on a rail or box, on the top of a pipe wall, or lip of a jump. The rest of the time flat should only occur for a millisecond between turns, and even then the board isn't truly flat if you are steering with the front foot.


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## alf (Mar 14, 2008)

It's normal. I've found I can leave the board closer to flat-based as I get more practice, but it almost always takes a little edge.

I've read some of the more experienced guys on this site suggest twisting the board so you use the toe edge at one end of the board while using the heel edge at the other end. Personally I haven't got that to work yet.


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## Grizz (Nov 10, 2008)

alf said:


> I've read some of the more experienced guys on this site suggest twisting the board so you use the toe edge at one end of the board while using the heel edge at the other end. Personally I haven't got that to work yet.


Remember that only happens for a split second at turn initiation, you wouldn't try and let the board run like that for any distance.


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## alf (Mar 14, 2008)

Grizz said:


> Remember that only happens for a split second at turn initation, you would'nt try and let the board run like that for any distance.


Nah, this was in context of trying to keep up momentum for long flat stretches, not for torsional steering. I'm thinking, whether it works at all might depend on how flexible your gear is... But agreed that the real answer to the OP's question is that you expect to stay on edge for flats!


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## Grizz (Nov 10, 2008)

alf said:


> Nah, this was in context of trying to keep up momentum for long flat stretches, not for torsional steering.


How is that supposed to work? Can you point me to the thread? If you are on toe edge in front and heel edge in back and trying to run the flats it seems that you would be killing your speed rather than gaining it. It also seems like it would force you into a turn.:dunno:


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## legallyillegal (Oct 6, 2008)

Nope, riding on both edges is perfectly normal.


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## baldylox (Dec 27, 2007)

I've found that the best way to stay stable on the flats while maintaining speed and staving off leg fatigue is to stay locked into a fairly high edge angle carve. If you stay on one edge and let it shift your body across the trail you are actually losing a lot more speed to friction and wearing out your legs. Instead, keep a nice small radius carve back and forth. You should not be staying on one edge long enough to change direction. Just let the board pass back and forth beneath your torso and you'll be much more stable. Not to mention it feels better and your legs will thank you.


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## alf (Mar 14, 2008)

Grizz said:


> How is that supposed to work? Can you point me to the thread? If you are on toe edge in front and heel edge in back and trying to run the flats it seems that you would be killing your speed rather than gaining it. It also seems like it would force you into a turn.:dunno:


Can't believe I actually found it (or one of them)
http://www.snowboardingforum.com/tips-tricks-instructors/3268-tips-riding-flat.html#post30599

The idea would be to have less angle on either edge than you'd have if you were riding on one (so it doesn't slow you down too much), and the two edges cancel eachother out as far as turning, I guess.

Or for a more practical alternative:


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## Grizz (Nov 10, 2008)

alf said:


> Can't believe I actually found it (or one of them)
> http://www.snowboardingforum.com/tips-tricks-instructors/3268-tips-riding-flat.html#post30599
> 
> The idea would be to have less angle on either edge than you'd have if you were riding on one (so it doesn't slow you down too much), and the two edges cancel eachother out as far as turning, I guess.
> ...


Thanks for digging that up. I'll check it out.

_Ok, still not buying it. I'll try it tomorrow. Even if it's possible (??) I don't see what is to be gained over using all of one edge vs 1/2 of one and 1/2 of the other._

That think looks like a bitch to ollie.


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## Grizz (Nov 10, 2008)

cifex said:


> I've found that the best way to stay stable on the flats while maintaining speed and staving off leg fatigue is to stay locked into a fairly high edge angle carve.


If you go on a high edge angle, you will turn sharply across the hill and if you're on the flats it will kill your speed. A very low edge angle will allow you to travel almost in a straight line (you might move 1 foot lateral for every 100ft covered)and keep your speed up.


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## Guest (Jan 7, 2009)

I ride a totally flat base for speed on and into the flats....

The trick to not catching an edge is to keep more weight on your front foot.

If you put more weight on your back foot it will want to become the front foot due to physics which makes the tail squirrly and you'll catch an edge.


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## baldylox (Dec 27, 2007)

Grizz said:


> If you go on a high edge angle, you will turn sharply across the hill and if you're on the flats it will kill your speed. A very low edge angle will allow you to travel almost in a straight line (you might move 1 foot lateral for every 100ft covered)and keep your speed up.


If you can carve well (no skids), the higher edge angle keeps the friction down. I have no trouble maintaining the same speeds as those riding flat base or low edge angle and even passing them.


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## Grizz (Nov 10, 2008)

cifex said:


> If you can carve well (no skids), the higher edge angle keeps the friction down. I have no trouble maintaining the same speeds as those riding flat base or low edge angle and even passing them.


When you are riding a "high" edge angle you will be in a turn.

You can't have a high edge angle and ride in a straight line (or almost straight). The sidecut won't let you. 

A high edge angle is achieved by having your center of mass offset from the board. The higher the edge angle the greater the offset. If you aren't turning while doing this you will fall over (no centripetal force).

If you are turning you will be covering a greater distance than a person going close to straight. More turns are slower than fewer.


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## Grizz (Nov 10, 2008)

Snowolf said:


> The two ways that I have found to be effective for dealing with the flats is to use a very low toe edge angle and deliberately counter rotate my upper body to face forward. What happens here is there is a gentle tendency to drift toward the toe side as a result of using the sidecut of the board. By counter rotating my upper body, this applies pivot forces to the board favoring the heel side. The two forces generally cancel each other out and the board tracks true and straight.


I don't see what you're gaining. Why not keep your body neutraly aligned and keep pivot out of it? Go light toe for 100ft then light heel 100ft?



Snowolf said:


> I have used the method of twisting the board so that up front, I have a slight toe edge engagement and with the back foot, I will apply opposite pressure to create a gentle heel side edge engagement. What happens is the board is twisted so that I am on toe edge up front and heel edhe in back with the base putting minimal pressure on the snow. There is a slight decrease in glide, but it is an interesting technique to employ and it requires independent use of your feet.


I really want to see this. When are you coming back?


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## hellside (Dec 28, 2008)

Snowolf said:


> The two ways that I have found ....
> 
> I have used the method of twisting the board ...


I think I read your other post about this before. I mix riding flat base with your method and it works very well.


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## NYCboarder (Jan 26, 2008)

so what about landing a jump onto a declining hill.... (pretty steep) should you land flat. an pop to an edge or try to land somewhat on a slight edge?


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## Grizz (Nov 10, 2008)

NYCboarder said:


> so what about landing a jump onto a declining hill.... (pretty steep) should you land flat. an pop to an edge or try to land somewhat on a slight edge?


I'd say flat to absorb the landing then move to an edge. If you land on edge it will be harder to absorb the landing.


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## baldylox (Dec 27, 2007)

You can increase speed by carving. You don't initiate with the front foot. The edge transition is all at once and you are actually pulling the edge into the ground more so in the front at the beginning of the turn and then the back toward the end. I believe snowolf calls this dynamic carving, though i'm not sure....I just do it. If you do it quickly your body can move straight forward while your legs transition back and forth beneath you.


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## Guest (Jan 7, 2009)

sweet thanks guys for all the answers, gonna have to try out some of these techniques next time up.


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## NYCboarder (Jan 26, 2008)

Grizz said:


> I'd say flat to absorb the landing then move to an edge. If you land on edge it will be harder to absorb the landing.


:thumbsup: thanks for the info.. i will give it a shot saturday


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## Guest (Jan 8, 2009)

*analysis paralysis*

Geez fellas. I have found the most EFFICIENT way to ride the flats is torsional steering and low edge angles. Keep your stance neutral (centered), eliminate pivot (grizz) and go back and forth from your heel to your toe edge, while conserving energy and using the feet and ankles through pressure distribution to guide the board and tell it what to do and where you want it to go by twisting the board (torsional steering) and staying centered.

What Grizz is referring to is the "Tunnel effect" when at speed the board appears to be on both edges, but only for a split second when the actually edge change takes place..now, through track analysis we can see this in the snow.. I would also like to see how it is possible to ride on both edges heel/toe at the same time... seems physically impossible to me.. and only happens in the scenario I described...according to AASI I want too see it Wolf!!


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## Mooz (Aug 14, 2007)

Snowolf said:


> In addition, you need to keep your upper body quiet and aligned with the board to prevent unwanted pivot.


I have the hardest time with this. I ride goofy and have a very dominant left eye so to "see" I often start to open up my right shoulder causing the pivot. It drives me mad especially since it's such a subconcious thing.


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## baldylox (Dec 27, 2007)

Mooz said:


> I have the hardest time with this. I ride goofy and have a very dominant left eye so to "see" I often start to open up my right shoulder causing the pivot. It drives me mad especially since it's such a subconcious thing.


So learn to ride, regular.....DUH! :cheeky4:


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## Mooz (Aug 14, 2007)

haha I've actually had to learn switch at least to demonstrate to first timers how to turn. I can handle it at low speeds with wide deliberate turns. I still get very uncomfortable at high speeds riding switch.


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## baldylox (Dec 27, 2007)

Ditto. Since I usually only ride switch while teaching someone else.


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## Guest (Jan 8, 2009)

Grizz said:


> I don't see what you're gaining. Why not keep your body neutraly aligned and keep pivot out of it? Go light toe for 100ft then light heel 100ft?


what you gain is going straight. the idea is basically to bend your board so that it's kinda arched or corkscrewed across its width. much harder to do on a stiffer board. you get a contact point on both sides of the board so that it doesn't try to turn one way or the other. it definitely isn't as efficient for keeping speed as just rocking back and forth between edges, but sometimes there isn't much room to do that.


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## Guest (Jan 8, 2009)

Mooz said:


> haha I've actually had to learn switch at least to demonstrate to first timers how to turn.


i didn't even think about that. i told my girlfriend i'd give her a lesson and i didn't even think about the fact that she's goofy footed. i can already picture her getting pissed at me because of her first timer frustration.


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## Guest (Jan 8, 2009)

Gustov said:


> i didn't even think about that. i told my girlfriend i'd give her a lesson and i didn't even think about the fact that she's goofy footed. i can already picture her getting pissed at me because of her first timer frustration.


Avoid her getting pissed at you... hire a pro to give her a lesson. In seven years of teaching I have seen this dynamic cause more problems between significant others than any other issue.

It is supposed to be about fun, and I think your girl would listen to another instuctor more so than you. 
After the lesson is over, then you can continue what the instructor has begun, and everyone is happy and not getting all upset.. this works. and nice to see Mooz is still posting... and I hear teaching snowboarding!! good on ya mate.


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## Mooz (Aug 14, 2007)

Gustov said:


> i didn't even think about that. i told my girlfriend i'd give her a lesson and i didn't even think about the fact that she's goofy footed. i can already picture her getting pissed at me because of her first timer frustration.


I got hired on by my local hill as an instructor. I noticed pretty quick that most people were regular (I'm goofy) so I started practicing switch. It feels weird but it's getting easier. I actually have to upweight and downweight on the damn bunny hill just to make my turns switch lol


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## Grizz (Nov 10, 2008)

Gustov said:


> what you gain is going straight.


You can't go straight enough on one edge that you have to make it more complicated and try to use two?



Gustov said:


> the idea is basically to bend your board so that it's kinda arched or corkscrewed across its width. much harder to do on a stiffer board. you get a contact point on both sides of the board so that it doesn't try to turn one way or the other.


I understand what the concept is but I need to see it so I can understand what's going on. I have some theories. I tried it with little success (might be the btx, might be me) so I'm going to watch someone who can do it.



> it definitely isn't as efficient for keeping speed as just rocking back and forth between edges,but sometimes there isn't much room to do that.


Then why do it? I'm not buying the "room" issue. If you are trying to maintain your speed on a narrow run you could go 100ft and not take up more than 5 feet of width while staying on one edge.


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## baldylox (Dec 27, 2007)

Snowolf said:


> See, this is the problem with many instructors...why can`t there be more than one way to ride? Niether way is wrong or right, but it seems that the AASI mentality is that it always has to be a "right" way and everything else is wrong......:dunno:


Agreed....even the old rear foot rudder has a place on occasions. The style I've developed for high angle carving or G-Force carving feels beautiful....like absolute perfection, leaves a perfect line. I'm getting so into that aspect that I am I'm going to pick up a hardboot setup next year, and perhaps an alpine board. My favorite style is very similar to that of Doug Dryer (though certainly I can't get nearly that low) which goes against many of the AASI principles that I see being sermonized here. Read about it here... Ultimate Carving


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## Grizz (Nov 10, 2008)

Snowolf said:


> See, this is the problem with many instructors...why can`t there be more than one way to ride? Niether way is wrong or right, but it seems that the AASI mentality is that it always has to be a "right" way and everything else is wrong......:dunno:


Agreed, there's tons of ways to ride. To me it's never right or wrong, just more efficient or less efficient. 

I get what your saying between the lines, this has run it's course. I'm done posting until I see it done. Now who can I find to demo this maneuver?


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## Guest (Jan 9, 2009)

Snowolf said:


> See, this is the problem with many instructors...why can`t there be more than one way to ride? Niether way is wrong or right, but it seems that the AASI mentality is that it always has to be a "right" way and everything else is wrong......:dunno:


Have to take issue with that statement(s) The AASI manual was put together with over 100 years of riding and teaching experience. While is may not be the u;ltimate last word about technique etc etc.

AASI clearly states that there are many ways to move to create board perf, they have come to the conclusion that there are just better and more efficent way to create that board performance.

They key here is being flexible to the task and realize that there are many ways to get the job done... some are just more efficent?? is this not what we want, and how we want to ride?? Yes there is no right or wrong, just better and more efficent ways to acheive the desired board performance.


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## baldylox (Dec 27, 2007)

However, being that the AASI is an association of snowboard instructors and not physics PhDs, I'll take their definition of "most efficient" with a grain of salt.


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## Mooz (Aug 14, 2007)

cifex said:


> However, being that the AASI is an association of snowboard instructors and not physics PhDs, I'll take there definition of "most efficient" with a grain of salt.


QFT!! (x10)


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## Guest (Jan 9, 2009)

cifex said:


> However, being that the AASI is an association of snowboard instructors and not physics PhDs, I'll take there definition of "most efficient" with a grain of salt.



bullocks... so one hundred years of riding and teaching experience means nothing?? right A physics PHD would be no more qualified to teach the sport, he would just have a deeper understanding of properties involved, Newton;s laws are sufficient when teaching snowboarding..


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## baldylox (Dec 27, 2007)

First of all, what does "100 years of riding and teaching experience" mean?? Snowboarding has only been around for a few decades so I can only assume this means something to the effect of 5 guys who have been teaching / riding for a handful of years each and editing by Aunt Lisa who taught 6th grade science for 38 years.... This forum probably has a couple thousand years of riding experience so that doesn't mean a whole lot. 

Secondly, I can think of several more properties that would apply beyond Newton....friction, fluid dynamics, centrifugal forces....that's just off the top of my head. My point is not to discredit the AASI, but merely to state that they do not know everything and certainly have a vested interest in giving the impression that they ARE the ultimate authority.

*EDITED AS AN AFTERTHOUGHT:*

If you just want the most "efficient" way to get down the mountain, you should ski. I don't think there is an disputing that the ski is a more versatile and adept tool for getting a person from summit to base. Snowboarding is about getting out on the mountain to lock in a perfect turn or catch some air flying through waist deep pow in the trees, so... efficiency? Humbug!


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## EC99SS (Dec 6, 2007)

Snowolf said:


> The two ways that I have found to be effective for dealing with the flats is to use a very low toe edge angle and deliberately counter rotate my upper body to face forward. What happens here is there is a gentle tendency to drift toward the toe side as a result of using the sidecut of the board. By counter rotating my upper body, this applies pivot forces to the board favoring the heel side. The two forces generally cancel each other out and the board tracks true and straight.
> 
> I have used the method of twisting the board so that up front, I have a slight toe edge engagement and with the back foot, I will apply opposite pressure to create a gentle heel side edge engagement. What happens is the board is twisted so that I am on toe edge up front and heel edhe in back with the base putting minimal pressure on the snow. There is a slight decrease in glide, but it is an interesting technique to employ and it requires independent use of your feet.


Snowolf -
Very interesting. By deliberately counter rotating your body to face forward are you saying your lead shoulder is now pointing down the mountain or did your shoulder breaks the plane of the board per se and your torso pointing more towards the bottom of the mtn?

I find I have an easier time going straight(er) on my toe edge (regular footed). When I try to do heel, I keep curving heel side. I'm having a hard time even maintining a low heel edge angle...I just want to seem to carve that way...

Thanks!


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## Guest (Jan 10, 2009)

cifex said:


> First of all, what does "100 years of riding and teaching experience" mean?? Snowboarding has only been around for a few decades so I can only assume this means something to the effect of 5 guys who have been teaching / riding for a handful of years each and editing by Aunt Lisa who taught 6th grade science for 38 years.... This forum probably has a couple thousand years of riding experience so that doesn't mean a whole lot.
> 
> Secondly, I can think of several more properties that would apply beyond Newton....friction, fluid dynamics, centrifugal forces....that's just off the top of my head. My point is not to discredit the AASI, but merely to state that they do not know everything and certainly have a vested interest in giving the impression that they ARE the ultimate authority.
> 
> ...


Dude you are spewing w/o subtance.. combined teaching experience!! I can't believe I have to set that up for you.. Bag on AASI all you would like I could give a flying monkey fuck.

Fluid dynamics?? centripital and centrifigul forces are adressed via newton's three laws.. care to elucidate all of us Neanderthals how a teaching progression specifically addressing fluid dynamics and how it applies SPECIFICALLY to snow boarding?

If you have access chk the Canadien snowboard manuals>/??? I think you will find that Newton's laws sufficient address forces involved, and the ramification of those forces on our riding. 

A PHD in Physics?? superfluos as far as teaching goes... but, since you speak from experience tell us all about friction and fluid dynamcics and how they related to snowboarding??...Please.


Back it up with examples of these things off the top of your head>>>?? how many years have you taught snowsports?

AASI is not the utltimate infallable divine source for snowboarding technique on the planet, nor do I promulgate that they are. I am expectedd to teach the sport the way they want it taught. I do not believe, nor have I ever said that they are the ultimate source, I just work for them, and If I hope to increase my certification level, I must teach the way they expect me to.... thats all.

If you would like to continue to use poor technique to accomplish a desired result on your board when a better and more efficient way to accomplish that goal exists, and you are un willing to even entertain and newe idea or technique, then your mind is closed and you will never learn anything new.

When you think you know it all you are fucking yourself because the world is a classroon and learning possibilties are all around us, but your mind seems closed to any of that. enjoy.

My intent is to not insult you in anyway,.. back up what you are saying with some examples instead of your close minded bollocks..


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## Guest (Jan 10, 2009)

Mooz said:


> QFT!! (x10)


If this is directed at me be a man and address me and stop with your little pussy text language..if not accept my apologies.


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## baldylox (Dec 27, 2007)

QFT = Quoted For Truth


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## baldylox (Dec 27, 2007)

Put your torch down.

What I am saying is not that having a Phd would assist you to teach in any way. You are looking at it from that perspective for some reason...(you're an intructor?). The conversation was about ways to deal with the flats. I am questioning AASI's / your statement that it is the most efficient way to do something. What are their criteria for being "efficient"? What is efficiency on a snowboard? Least calories burned? Fastest speed? Perhaps it is just that it is the most efficient way to teach it....

Newton's three laws are quite general. The knowledge of those three laws alone does not help much UNLESS you refer to specific properties. My thinking with fluid dynamics is air resistance / layer of fluid between board and snow / the way board behaves in deep snow.

Who is not backing things up? I never said the AASI technique is wrong. I said it's not the only answer. "Because the AASI says so" is not backing up your statement....

Since some of the best snowboarders have techniques that go against AASI techniques, who's technique is really more efficient.


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## Guest (Jan 10, 2009)

It seems like for me, when riding the flats, I can maintain speed really well while on my toeside edge. However, if I try to ride down a flat on my heelside edge, I can't get nearly as far or go nearly as fast. Anyone else have this problem?


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## Guest (Jan 10, 2009)

OK, so it's a common thing and not just me. Thanks.


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## Guest (Jan 10, 2009)

Ok, I've been watching this thread with some interest b/c I've always thought (been told) riding a flat base is faster than being on edge..

I did a quick google search and found this: Boardercross Techniques

A website on boardcross technique, I dont know who put it out but they seem to know their stuff. 

Their #2 golden rule is 

"Base is faster than edge. This is actually a Giant Slalom racing technique but applies equally to Boardercross racing. Wherever possible you should try and keep your board on a flat base because the P-Tex base is much faster than the metal edges."

Is this a old way of thinking that has recently been disproved???


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## Guest (Jan 11, 2009)

Yea, its interesting, they even go into depth on the section on banked corners emphasising using the angle to let you keep a flat base throughout the turn.

I've never really had a problem not catching an edge since someone told me to keep my wieght forward. The faster/sketchier the section I'm straight lining the more forward my weight is..

And yes, you can't twist your upper body w/o turning while doing this, and must go straight down the fall line.


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## Frank101 (Jan 8, 2009)

So glad I found this thread. I was having a similar problem and couldn't figure out exactly what others in the area were doing that I wasn't besides being way more experience. Lot's of good info here.


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## alf (Mar 14, 2008)

Snowolf said:


> There do seem to be two schools of thought on this. I hear many "pros" that swear by staying on edge to maintain speed. I also hear many who swear by staying flat based. In my own riding, when trying different things, I feel like the board glides better flat based.


One practical consideration, especially for us east coasters who ride base-unfriendly ice and crud, is that the center of the base usually has more wax on it compared to near the edges. ----> so pressuring an edge really slows you down if it means riding on dry ptex


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## Guest (Jan 12, 2009)

I've found this thread interesting because I've always felt awkward trying to get through the flats. 



Snowolf said:


> The two ways that I have found to be effective for dealing with the flats is to use a very low toe edge angle and deliberately counter rotate my upper body to face forward. What happens here is there is a gentle tendency to drift toward the toe side as a result of using the sidecut of the board. By counter rotating my upper body, this applies pivot forces to the board favoring the heel side. The two forces generally cancel each other out and the board tracks true and straight....


Funny that aviation would come up later in the thread - when I read the above technique I thought about cross-controlling an airplane. 

I don't know too much about AASI, but it doesn't make sense to be so rigid. If I remember correctly, the FAA gives two methods to approach a runway straight in a crosswind (without saying one is right)

...anyway, I found this thread very useful. I ran into the same two flats this weekend. This time, I had more success dealing with them differently.


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## Guest (Jan 13, 2009)

Snowolf said:


> Let`s imagine that you are riding slightly on your toe edge across the flats to get o the lift. Lets say that like you mentioned, you have not quite gotten real good at making an edge change to your heel edge in this environment. As you ride on that toe edge, you will drift into a slight toeside turn. One method to counteract this without having to make an edge change, is to use your upper body to add pivotal force to the board that favors a heel side turn. So, instead of having your shoulders aligned with the board, you will rotate your shoulders heelside so that your chest faces down the run. What happens is the force of pivot, counteracts the turning force created by your sidecut.
> 
> True, you will loose some efficiency, but until are able to deal with the flats by making these edge chabges, it is a way to deal withe them without the slam.


Hey, thanks for these tips. I'm terrible on flat terrain. And I can't carve very well at all yet. I can heel stop really well as long as there is a hint of a decline. When I try to do a toe side turn/slide/turn especially on flat ground I tend to make a little quarter-circle/semi-circle going that way and then crash. A lot of times I'll fall on flat ground when I'm going fast (I can't really control my speed on flat ground) and trying heel stop too. My back side of the board chatters a lot when I try to keep most of my weight on my front foot. Does the counteract thing you mentioned work in the opposite scenario (heelside turn but rotating shoulders to toe side of board)? And in your other method of putting front foot pressed toeside and back foot pressed heel side how does one steer? Is it all upper body rotation and lean? Or am I alleviating pressure on my feet based upon which direction I want to go?


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## ScBlack (Dec 9, 2008)

cifex said:


> I've found that the best way to stay stable on the flats while maintaining speed and staving off leg fatigue is to stay locked into a fairly high edge angle carve. If you stay on one edge and let it shift your body across the trail you are actually losing a lot more speed to friction and wearing out your legs. Instead, keep a nice small radius carve back and forth. You should not be staying on one edge long enough to change direction. Just let the board pass back and forth beneath your torso and you'll be much more stable. Not to mention it feels better and your legs will thank you.


I found this to be very true. I didn't do enough of this from the start this past weekend and by the end of a mid-day session, my legs were noodles and my body didn't want to listen to what I wanted to do. It took me forever to come down a steep blue consist of constantly sitting down every so often  probably couldn't even link a crave if my life depended on it...


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## Guest (Jan 26, 2009)

flat base equals more friction... board on edge equals less friction more speed... no doubt about it without question... simple physics... Riding a flat base is slower... riding on edge is faster... end of conversation... anything else is self flagellation... enjoy


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## Guest (Jan 27, 2009)

Snowolf said:


> I think it would be interesting to find a way to very accurately measure the difference. I am only going on what I feel happening. It would be interesting to get other rider`s experiences with this. For now, I am going with staying flat based.


Although I use a slight edge for control / comfort, I think flat based would be faster.

While an edge is a smaller surface than a flat board, there is much more pressure; so I'm not so sure there is less friction.

More importantly, an edge is a strip of metal while the base has wax and structure designed for speed. I think this gives the flat base a slight advantage.

I'm guessing the difference is small enough that personal preference will play a big part.

As far as testing:

After adding some weight - you could race a board and a "sled" made out of 2 parallel edges so it doesn't fall over :dunno:


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## Guest (Jan 27, 2009)

(O..O) said:


> Although I use a slight edge for control / comfort, I think flat based would be faster.
> 
> While an edge is a smaller surface than a flat board, there is much more pressure; so I'm not so sure there is less friction.
> 
> More importantly, an edge is a strip of metal while the base has wax and structure designed for speed. I think this gives the flat base a slight advantage.


I just googled it and this is what I found... 

*Question*
*







*
Why doesn't friction depend on surface area?








Asked by: Elizabeth Stewart

*Answer*








Although a larger area of contact between two surfaces would create a larger source of frictional forces, it also reduces the pressure between the two surfaces for a given force holding them together. Since pressure equals force divided by the area of contact, it works out that the increase in friction generating area is exactly offset by the reduction in pressure; the resulting frictional forces, then, are dependent only on the frictional coefficient of the materials and the FORCE holding them together. 

If you were to increase the force as you increased the area to keep PRESSURE the same, then increasing the area WOULD increase the frictional force between the two surfaces.








Answered by: Paul Walorski, B.A. Physics, Part-time Physics Instructor


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## Grizz (Nov 10, 2008)

With a pro and all other factors being equal, flat based is fastest. In the skiing speed events (downhill, Super G) the skis are tuned with large base bevels to minimize edge contact while running flat for more speed. 

Then again at a recreational level, would the tendency for the board to pivot and skid while flat, kill any speed gained over running a board slightly edged. I think for most people it would.


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## Grizz (Nov 10, 2008)

oneplankawanka said:


> flat base equals more friction... board on edge equals less friction more speed... no doubt about it without question... simple physics... Riding a flat base is slower... riding on edge is faster... end of conversation... anything else is self flagellation... enjoy


Step away from the surface area issue for a moment.

What has more friction on snow, metal or a wax saturated piece of structured plastic? Same dimensions of each.


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## Grizz (Nov 10, 2008)

I have no flight training so I'm only comparing what you've said about it to how I see the exam process.



Snowolf said:


> As an example, take someone who may have some physical limitation that limits their movements. They may not be able to move exactly the way AASI demands, but have learned ways to overcome it and ride better than some examiner. These people fail their riding exams year after year because of this rigidity. These people may have years of teaching and riding background but are denied higher levels because some pin dick examiner or DCL will not take some physical issues into consideration.


Please PM me some info on this. I can't think of anyone out riding an examiner and not passing. 

People fail for not being able to produce the movements required to complete a task within it's criteria. There is some latitude taken for physical and gear differences between candidates. People of different sizes, body types, genders and riding styles pass the exam even though the image they present is very different. 

Would it be fair to pass someone with a "physical issue" that prevented them from completing a task? What if my beer gut gets in the way of making a required grab? If you start down this path it's a slippery slope to a watered down cert. Some would say we've already moved in this direction by moving most freestyle out of the exam and over to a module.



> I have a little insight into the world of instructing that these DCL`s and examiners don`t have and that is in the world of flight instruction. The FAA for example gives a lot of latitude on check rides for conditions. If it is a windy, turbulent day, the FAA examiner will allow more wiggle room on maneuvers for a pilot to pass. Even the FAR`s give the pilot in command the latitude to violate a regulation in the interest of the safety of the aircraft.


It's the same for examiners. Take a mogul run for example. You will have far more latitude in passing first thing in the morning when they are rock hard and icy then you will late afternoon when they are soft and slushy. Same thing for a pipe that's not cut properly. 

If while doing a task a safety issue arose (avoiding a gaper or sudden avalanche) like the pilot you would be allowed latitude to deal with the situation without it hurting your final result. It's just common sense.:dunno: 



> In snowboard instruction, if I pass on a tip to a student how to do a pivot turn to skid into positive control in a dicey situation, I will be called on the carpet.


I'm really calling BS here. Safety is the number one priority. If they need to do a skidded or pivot turn to keep from harm, do it. No one would fault you for it. Besides 99% of turns we teach are skidded and everyone knows it. 



> Some people simply do not have the skill level to make a AASI approved carved turn through a frozen mogul field on a 45 degree pitch, but AASI seems to have this attitude that we can`t ever pass on a tip that promotes their safety if it conflicts with their "only one right way" of doing things.


This is crazy. 90% of the public can't do what you're suggesting, hell 90% of AASI instructors can't do it. What's with the "only one right way"? I think basic skidded turns or even a side slip would be the safest option for most people in this situation. 

The AASI approach is all based on the ability level of the student. Palmer might straight line the bumps. White would get flippy spinny airing from one to the next. Some of the best examiners might be doing a pure carved turn. I'd be doing a basic skidded turn. My little sis would probably side slip. All would be AASI valid ways of dealing with the terrain for the ability level of the rider. THERE IS NO "ONE RIGHT WAY".

I'm not sure where you've developed the idea that AASI takes such a narrow black/white view of instruction. I'd like to hear about it sometime.


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## Guest (Jan 27, 2009)

Grizz said:


> Step away from the surface area issue for a moment.
> 
> What has more friction on snow, metal or a wax saturated piece of structured plastic? Same dimensions of each.


plastic of course... how often does an accomplished rider ride a flat base?? going off jumps? landing jumps? hitting the vert of the pipe?? yes yes and yes.. A low edge angle is being confused with a flat board fella's. The name of the thread is EDGE CONTROL IS IT NOT? We are all on edge most of the time edge = control.

Of course we ride flat based when we can...where do you guys slide in some mythical place that does not require edging??? fantasy. A boarder cross course is not a straight run. it requires edging movements of the body to the board creating performance... we ride flat based when it is appropriate, and only then.

Analogies are great,but in this case the aviation cross controlling thang makes no sense to me... all due respect snowolf..:cheeky4:

I have perused the boardercross technique link. It entails a very general statement about maintaining a flat base for speed !! is this not obvious?? We ride a flat base when it is appropriate for the terrain, and yes it is faster YES! With beveled base edges even more so.. 

To say on a thread entitled "edge control" that riding a flat base is faster than being on edge is OBVIOIUS we are talking about edging aren't we?


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## Guest (Jan 27, 2009)

Grizz said:


> Totally normal and exactly for the reason you state. Being even a tiny bit on edge will allow the board to stabilize and feel locked on. The "catch an edge" feeling you have when the board is running flat is the side cut of either edge trying to engage. Better to pick one and stick with it than have one suddenly grab when you are running flat.
> 
> The only time your board should be flat is if you are on a rail or box, on the top of a pipe wall, or lip of a jump. The rest of the time flat should only occur for a millisecond between turns, and even then the board isn't truly flat if you are steering with the front foot.


Grizz!! do you remember what you have said here?? YOu are confirming what I have said , then you later go on to contradict what you have said here??:dunno: A flat base is faster, BUT only when it is appropriate to do so... and those times depend on the skill of the rider and how they ride. (the examples you use...ie Shaun White, Shawn Palmer..


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## Guest (Jan 27, 2009)

i just wanted to join to say riding on an edge will definitely slow you down. the surface area logic doesn't work. if we're talking technical about physics, then you didn't take into account the energy that is bled off from that edge digging into the snow and pushing snow out of the way.


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## Guest (Jan 27, 2009)

You know I luv ya wolf... just can't make the connection between the aviation thing and snowboarding..FOR my theory of the world and schralping in general.

The only reason I said what I said is this concept or thoughts about it have been so un mercifully beat about the head the argument seems circular.... ad naseum.

and I wanted to piss you, my oneplanker mates off!!! LOL. So here is some more.. So this is why a halfpipe rider carves (on edge) across the flats of the pipe to GAIN and MAINTAIN SPEED in order to hit the vert (flat) and change edges in the air..So, why does he not ride a flat board across the flats (if its so much faster) to gain speed??

It seems no one is taking into account REAL riding condtions and how we use our edges to maintain and in some cases create more speed!!!! real world riding, not some fantasy land where riding flat is always faster...blah blah blah...


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## Grizz (Nov 10, 2008)

oneplankawanka said:


> Grizz!! do you remember what you have said here?? YOu are confirming what I have said , then you later go on to contradict what you have said here??:dunno: A flat base is faster, BUT only when it is appropriate to do so... and those times depend on the skill of the rider and how they ride. (the examples you use...ie Shaun White, Shawn Palmer..


Slow down home slice.

I'm not contradicting anything, did you read this from my post?

"Then again at a recreational level, would the tendency for the board to pivot and skid while flat, kill any speed gained over running a board slightly edged. I think for most people it would."

Theoretically a flat base is faster, in practice a slightly edged board is faster for most people......and I still think a board twisted to use the toe and heel edge at the same time would be the slowest of the three.


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## Grizz (Nov 10, 2008)

oneplankawanka said:


> So here is some more.. So this is why a halfpipe rider carves (on edge) across the flats of the pipe to GAIN and MAINTAIN SPEED in order to hit the vert (flat) and change edges in the air..So, why does he not ride a flat board across the flats (if its so much faster) to gain speed??


Edging in that situation is less about maintaining speed and more about maintaining line. You could flat base the flats but you would wind up further down the pipe with fewer but larger hits.


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## Guest (Jan 27, 2009)

grizz a rider pumps the flat areas to gain speed and maintain carve/pump to gain speed.

The rider is also mangaging pressure by flexing and extending...creating it and disspating it.

I wan't to fly ...and understand... I have an opened mind.

"A leopard can't change its spots, but and old dog (me) can learn new tricks.


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## Grizz (Nov 10, 2008)

oneplankawanka said:


> grizz a rider pumps the flat areas to gain speed and maintain carve/pump to gain speed.


I feel more set across the flats and pump the tranny (no, not that kind)? Can you elaborate I'm not following the point you're trying to make. :dunno:


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## Grizz (Nov 10, 2008)

I think part of the miscommunication is what we are talking about as "flats" and the "speed" we are wishing to travel. I was thinking SCUD to bottom of Vista and as fast as possible. I can't imagine doing this maneuver over that long of distance at a high rate of speed. 

Jarrod was able to do it moving slowly with a highly contrived stance over 100ft. I doubt even with his extensive freestyle background he could hold it for a quarter klick. What he did was not the 50/50 toe/heel I thought we were talking about. It was more like 80/20 with the upper body countering the 20% and it wasn't in a straight line.


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## Guest (Jan 28, 2009)

> The issue got expanded generally and was dismissed as impossible to do which it is not. I agree that except in a situation like I outlined, it is inefficient and pointless, but like we see in our riding, we encounter situations that sometime make us think outside the box and this method is certainly thinking out of the box...


I actually tried this 2 weekends ago and I can attest to the fact that it does work. My setup is really stiff, which makes it pretty hard to do and not really worthwhile, but it is possible. I imagine with a softer setup it'd be easier.


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## Guest (Jan 28, 2009)

Grizz said:


> I feel more set across the flats and pump the tranny (no, not that kind)? Can you elaborate I'm not following the point you're trying to make. :dunno:


pumping creates pressure, hence acceleration.. We releive this pressure by bringing the feet closer to the hips (retraction) we create pressure through extension...The pipe is the most challenging because it puts great demands on pressure management and application, and makes us better riders all over the mtn.

Yes, carving acorss the flats and tranny maintains line, but it also aids in speed ON EDGE In this case more speed!

You know I am no park/pipe master. I am riding them this year more than ever and am progressing and finding my way.. in a calculated safe manner.


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## Guest (Jan 28, 2009)

Snowolf said:


> The reason you cant is because you have not experienced flying (as a pilot)
> 
> When I get you up in the plane with me and I show you some "freestyle aviation" you will get it.... (only if you want to get funky, otherwise I`ll keep it like a smooth airline ride) There are so many parallels to between aircraft control and board control. When the weather improves and we go up, I will let you take the controls and talk you through a few maneuvers and it will click for you I guarantee it...:thumbsup:
> 
> ...


My brother, watch the X games on right now and tell if any "pro's" ride a flat base across the flat/tranny of a halfpipe??:dunno: not done or the line is lost, scrubing speed yup but never flat.


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## Guest (Jan 28, 2009)

Grizz said:


> Slow down home slice.
> 
> I'm not contradicting anything, did you read this from my post?
> 
> ...


Home Slice ? on edge close to the edge (a Yes album) nearly on edge, plastic or steel... flat or almost flat.. is this not what riding entails?? constant mangagement of movement creating performance?? in the end all subjective and wrapped up in the semantics of presentation and interpretation....

I agree both edges would be the slowest.. imo Shralp on my brethern and sistren..


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## Birk (Jan 28, 2009)

In time you will feel comfortable with riding flatbased, it's essential if you're gonna fly off kickers and such. Bad idea staying heel or toe edge if you don't want to spin!
Good luck


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## Guest (Jan 29, 2009)

Birk said:


> In time you will feel comfortable with riding flatbased, it's essential if you're gonna fly off kickers and such. Bad idea staying heel or toe edge if you don't want to spin!
> Good luck


Yo my brother, read all of the posts on this thread before you comment... this as all been discussed already. We ride flat based when it is appropriate...not in some fantasy land.. real world conditions.


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## Birk (Jan 28, 2009)

sorry mac, just trying to contribute here.
By the way; i realize you can only ride flatbased when appropriate, thats obvious


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## Guest (Jan 29, 2009)

all good my schralping brother... did not mean to be a wanker.... peace on earth. and keep the comments coming.. cheers!! and beers..


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## Guest (Feb 6, 2009)

I had to reread quite a few posts to catch up here, Oneplanks first post was so egotistical I didnt even feel like responding. Good thing he's gotten more logical.

Saying we only ride a flat base when appropriate is silly. As I said earlier (and should be completely obvious to anyone who's been out more than 5 times)

"..you can't twist your upper body w/o turning while doing this, and must go straight down the fall line." (fishodeath)

Obviously the amount of times you want to go straight down the fall line are limited. However, the orignal question was about carrying speed into the flats and weather or not it was possible to ride a flat base (dispite "edge" being in the title), which is a perfect example of a time you might want to ride straight down the fall line to get/keep speed onto a flat section.

For those more physics-minded of us 

"flat base equals more friction... board on edge equals less friction more speed... no doubt about it without question... simple physics..." (oneplanka)

Not quite true... in fact, straight wrong. Force of Friction=(coefficent of friction)x(newtons of force in normal direction)

In plain english: The amount you get slowed by friction equals the friction of the surface's sliding against each other multiplied by your weight.

Since it's been determined above that structured PTEX has a lower coefficent of friction than metal edges, and your wieght never changes.... *flat base is faster*, end of conversation... anything else is self flagellation... enjoy.

Standard Friction Equation - Succeed in Physical Science: School for Champions

and before it gets brought up- 

"An interesting result of this equation is that in the case of sliding friction of hard surfaces, the friction is independent of the area of the surfaces. In other words, it is just as difficult to move a 1 square-cm object as a 1 square-meter object, if they both are pressed to the surface with the same amount of force.

This is not intuitive. You would think that there is more friction when the surfaces are larger, but the friction equation states otherwise. You can verify this fact with experiments."


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## Guest (Feb 8, 2009)

Fish of Death.. I am not worthy. I stand corrected.. We all bow down to your Physic-ness:cheeky4:

My aim in making the egotistical statement was to piss you off and cajole you to post... Mission accomplished.


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