# steep run HELP



## onthefence

Did heelside seem choppy, or like your board could never dig in its edge completely?


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## stickz

onthefence said:


> Did heelside seem choppy, or like your board could never dig in its edge completely?


both actually. that's exactly how it felt.


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## stickz

Snowolf said:


> We have a couple of threads talking about this topic and I have posted a lot of technique in them. This is a very common issue and it is the result of a combination of factors. Number one of which is stiff legs and leaning back over the heel edge. The steeper the terrain the lower you need to be. Squat into the heelside turn and really flex the ankles to keep your body over the board not way out over the heel edge.
> 
> Another issue is too much acceleration through turn entry so that when the board moves through the bottom of the turn, there is too much force generated to maintain edge hold. Working the top of the turn and setting the the new edge earlier in the turn is crucial for speed control through your turn.
> 
> To ride steeps with any success, you need to ride very dynamically and at 7 times riding, the reality is you are not there yet. It takes time to progress into dynamic skidded turns, basic carved turns and dynamic carved turns. Start you progression into dynamic riding by focusing on keeping your body in motion at all times and never getting static on the board. The key to this is flexing and extending constantly and timing these movements so that they correctly coincide with the phase of each turn you are in.
> 
> Right now, I want you to start practicing getting as low as you possibly can when the board is across the fall line and making your edge change before the board dives down into the fall line. As soon as the turn is established, slowly extend up through the turn to increase edge pressure. Do this all the way through the apex of turn; you should be most extended at apex and most flexed as the crosses the fall line. As the board passes through the apex of the turn and you are steering it back out of the fall line across the hill, slowly begin to flex again and if heelside, squat into more and more as is drives through the bottom of the turn.
> 
> Later on, fore-aft movements will need to be added to increase effectiveness but at your stage of riding, focus on learning each new task one at a time. Really focus on flexion/extension.
> 
> Now, when you come out of the bottom of your turn , if you feel the chatter start, imediately loosen up even more. The natural reaction is to stiffen up and push the edge harder. The reason the chatter is happening is because you are loosing edge hold. Pushing against it now will only cause the edge to totally blow out and skid out of control to the outside of the turn. Anytime shit starts to go wrong snowboarding, bend something!
> 
> Give this a try and let us know how it felt and what the difference was regarding board performance.


wow bro thank you. so basically get way lower and really start working on bending and straightening my legs through the turns? and if I start to feel chatter relax and bend my knees more not try to push through hill? should I continue trying black runs? thank you so much. oh and initiate the next turn before I hit the fall line...also would it help to set the back of my bindings forward a bit?


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## NWBoarder

stickz said:


> also would it help to set the back of my bindings forward a bit?


Dialing in some forward lean will always help you with the steeps IMO. It really pushes you into a more aggressive riding stance.


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## stickz

so after thinking about this then watching some instructional videos I can better explain how I was attempting To ride this BD run. I was not trying to make dynamic skidded turns. what I was doing was trying to turn basically on the fall line or slightly before then sideslip to stop then use the slope to point me forward then sharp turn the sideslip. it was when I try to sideslip heel side that I fall. I'm assuming this isn't the correct way to attempt riding the "steeps". I will get comfortable doing dynamic skidded turns all the way down the steepest blues then make my way back the the blacks. or please correct me if I'm wrong. I can make a lot of dynamic skidded turns in a row but at some point I typically get going a little to fast and sideslip a bit then get going again. I'll work on not sideslipping. it's just so much fun considering I'm a longboarder. and I feel MUCH more comfortable going 55 on a plank of wood and asphalt than 30 on a plank of wood on soft snow. lol


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## poutanen

Yeah there's really no need to ever sideslip unless the run narrows down REALLY tight and you've got to scrub speed (like in some treed runs or on a chute)...

Otherwise, on a steep wide open piste instead of side slipping to scrub off speed you should be making more dramatic dynamic skidded turns that turn and almost go uphill again.

Alpine boarders basically don't skid at all, yet they control their speed by spending more time going across the hill, than down the fall line.

My suggestion is to get REALLY good at working on your turns on a blue before worrying about ramping up to steeper runs.


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## stickz

poutanen said:


> Yeah there's really no need to ever sideslip unless the run narrows down REALLY tight and you've got to scrub speed (like in some treed runs or on a chute)...
> 
> Otherwise, on a steep wide open piste instead of side slipping to scrub off speed you should be making more dramatic dynamic skidded turns that turn and almost go uphill again.
> 
> Alpine boarders basically don't skid at all, yet they control their speed by spending more time going across the hill, than down the fall line.
> 
> My suggestion is to get REALLY good at working on your turns on a blue before worrying about ramping up to steeper runs.


so that's a really sharp turn to get yourself almost going back uphill. but that's a good thing for me to practice. thank you. snowboarding for me without goals is tough. now I have many clear cut goals to accomplish.


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## trapper

stickz said:


> so that's a really sharp turn to get yourself almost snowboarding for me without goals is tough. now I have many clear cut goals to accomplish.


And if putting a bunch of pressure on yourself to achieve doesn't work out, you could always try saying "fuck it" and just have fun.


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## rwspear

sometimes the easiest answers are the ones nobody wants to hear.

just ride more.


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## stickz

trapper said:


> And if putting a bunch of pressure on yourself to achieve doesn't work out, you could always try saying "fuck it" and just have fun.


I always have fun, since it's seriously the most fun I've ever had on any board and I'm stoned the entire time, but I don't like being mediocre at anything so in my experiences setting goals and boarding with people much better than you is the only way to get better. at least with skateboarding it was like that. but if it gets even a little stressful I will say FUCK IT and just have fun


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## stickz

rwspear said:


> sometimes the easiest answers are the ones nobody wants to hear.
> 
> just ride more.


I've prob said that 1000 times to new skaters. it's always hard to take you own advice, lol. and I'm 33 with a 5 month old, so max I can only ride twice a week.


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## trapper

stickz said:


> I always have fun, since it's seriously the most fun I've ever had on any board and I'm stoned the entire time, but I don't like being mediocre at anything so in my experiences setting goals and boarding with people much better than you is the only way to get better. at least with skateboarding it was like that. but if it gets even a little stressful I will say FUCK IT and just have fun


I completely understand, which is why I felt compelled to post this. I am notorious for putting unnecessary pressure on myself and have to sometimes stop and chill out and deliberately tell myself to relax and have fun. Fortunately, that's easy to do with this sport because it's such a goddamn good time.

For what it's worth, when I try to handle steeps (which I am a novice at), I find that simply side-slipping makes it manageable to deal with, especially if you're having a hard time just getting up the nerve to go down it. But that gets boring and I usually find the most success when I simply lean down the hill and turn like I do on blues, just more aggressively. Mentally, it's tough to do since your instinct is to be more cautious; that is exactly where I struggle as well.

Edit: I too am in my early 30's with three small kids and am a fairly new rider. There is a certain amount of cautiousness that impedes my riding to an extent as a result of this. But whatever, it's a shit ton of fun!


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## stickz

trapper said:


> I completely understand, which is why I felt compelled to post this. I am notorious for putting unnecessary pressure on myself and have to sometimes stop and chill out and deliberately tell myself to relax and have fun. Fortunately, that's easy to do with this sport because it's such a goddamn good time.
> 
> For what it's worth, when I try to handle steeps (which I am a novice at), I find that simply side-slipping makes it manageable to deal with, especially if you're having a hard time just getting up the nerve to go down it. But that gets boring and I usually find the most success when I simply lean down the hill and turn like I do on blues, just more aggressively. Mentally, it's tough to do since your instinct is to be more cautious; that is exactly where I struggle as well.
> 
> Edit: I too am in my early 30's with three small kids and am a fairly new rider. There is a certain amount of cautiousness that impedes my riding to an extent as a result of this. But whatever, it's a shit ton of fun!


ya that's why I quit DH skateboarding, I'm a dad now and couldn't justify it anymore


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## Slush Puppie

stickz, if you like to set yourself goals, try going to a less steep slope but still a little steep and see if you can make turns within a 3m corridor. Focus on getting dynamic as Snowolf says. Notice how the lower you get in between turns, the more it will control your speed and the quicker you will then turn as you stand tall again in the fall line. Do this without trying to jerk the board around, notice how just this up and down leg movement will do most of the work for you. Once you can do it with with good rhythm, see how narrow a corridor you can stay within.

Once you can do that, when you take it to the steeps it's the same thing. Regardless if you have a wider space to play with, you'll be able to ride down the fall line while controlling your speed and holding an edge. The more dynamic you get, the more you set a firm edge and at an angle will be keeping the speed off. Then the quicker the turn will be through the fall line (without jerking the board) and the less speed you pick up.


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## stickz

Slush Puppie said:


> stickz, if you like to set yourself goals, try going to a less steep slope but still a little steep and see if you can make turns within a 3m corridor. Focus on getting dynamic as Snowolf says. Notice how the lower you get in between turns, the more it will control your speed and the quicker you will then turn as you stand tall again in the fall line. Do this without trying to jerk the board around, notice how just this up and down leg movement will do most of the work for you. Once you can do it with with good rhythm, see how narrow a corridor you can stay within.
> 
> Once you can do that, when you take it to the steeps it's the same thing. Regardless if you have a wider space to play with, you'll be able to ride down the fall line while controlling your speed and holding an edge. The more dynamic you get, the more you set a firm edge and at an angle will be keeping the speed off. Then the quicker the turn will be through the fall line (without jerking the board) and the less speed you pick up.


awesome thank you


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## Pigevil

The only concern I have while snowboarding and skateboarding is to have fun. There is enough pressure with school/work, etc, I do not need that while boarding. For me it seems that having fun makes for natural progression. 

Setting goals does not work very well for me because it feels like a chore. 

I started going on steeper runs when the greens or blues started to get somewhat boring, meaning my mind/body were ready for steeper terrain. 
I wanted to have more fun and more fun was to be had at steeper terrain. 

I do not know the technical terms (dynamic, etc), I just started going on steeper terrain until I felt comfortable riding it. Since I knew I was going to be somewhat slow on steeper terrain at the beginning, I kept to either the left or right of the run, usually the one with more snow, that way I was not inconveniencing the faster riders going in the middle. Also since I was not in the middle I could stop on the side of the run away from all the traffic if a felt like I could not handle anymore turns. 

Stickz: Skateboarding is so much in the summer. You can always look forward to skate/snowboard with your kids. I see tons of dads skating with their kids at my local park.


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## onthefence

stickz said:


> both actually. that's exactly how it felt.


I had the same exact issues. My problems were that I wasn't turning my shoulder and knee enough.


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## stickz

Snowolf said:


> Improving your technique so that you can easily ride well down a 45-50 degree pitch with steeze IS fun....
> 
> Sideslipping a technical steep is a crime against humanity; if you can`t turn on on it, stay off of it and dont scrape all the of the good snow off of the hill and ruin it for others.


lol hopefully my other good deeds make up for it...


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## trapper

Snowolf said:


> Improving your technique so that you can easily ride well down a 45-50 degree pitch with steeze IS fun....
> 
> Sideslipping a technical steep is a crime against humanity; if you can`t turn on on it, stay off of it and dont scrape all the of the good snow off of the hill and ruin it for others.


I only meant to say that when I venture onto a steep, I merely start the first downward movement using a sideslip just to get over my fear and commit to it. I then have more success (and fun) when I start turning aggressively. The sideslip for me is just to overcome my initial mental barrier (fear). It doesn't last but for 10-15 seconds or so. I didn't articulate that well in my previous reply.


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## stickz

Snowolf said:


> Lol...no worries...just flipping shit...


I got that lmao. but I'm going Sunday and Monday so I'll work on getting down the hardest blues by only making dynamic skidded turns. then once that's easy I'll move back to blacks, as to not fuck up everyone's snow


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## wernersl

stickz said:


> I got that lmao. but I'm going Sunday and Monday so I'll work on getting down the hardest blues by only making dynamic skidded turns. then once that's easy I'll move back to blacks, as to not fuck up everyone's snow


Fuck it up all you want. I'll still plow through the shit!


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## stickz

wernersl said:


> Fuck it up all you want. I'll still plow through the shit!


awesome I'm sure my attitude will be the same soon. since I'm not even a little scared of the steeps speed whatever people are afraid of. I just gotta get
my technique down. then it's bombs away...


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## wernersl

stickz said:


> awesome I'm sure my attitude will be the same soon. since I'm not even a little scared of the steeps speed whatever people are afraid of. I just gotta get
> my technique down. then it's bombs away...


Dont get me wrong...I still brake check myself on some sketchy steeps, but learning to tell yourself fuck it and use the technique you know you have youll be fine. To further challenge myself I will just ollie the lip at the start of the steep and push through it. That was a big change for me this year, and guess what...you fuck up a lot less when you have confidence in yourself and just go for it.


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## jdang307

Snowolf said:


> We have a couple of threads talking about this topic and I have posted a lot of technique in them. This is a very common issue and it is the result of a combination of factors. Number one of which is stiff legs and leaning back over the heel edge. The steeper the terrain the lower you need to be. Squat into the heelside turn and really flex the ankles to keep your body over the board not way out over the heel edge.
> 
> Another issue is too much acceleration through turn entry so that when the board moves through the bottom of the turn, there is too much force generated to maintain edge hold. Working the top of the turn and setting the the new edge earlier in the turn is crucial for speed control through your turn.
> 
> To ride steeps with any success, you need to ride very dynamically and at 7 times riding, the reality is you are not there yet. It takes time to progress into dynamic skidded turns, basic carved turns and dynamic carved turns. Start you progression into dynamic riding by focusing on keeping your body in motion at all times and never getting static on the board. The key to this is flexing and extending constantly and timing these movements so that they correctly coincide with the phase of each turn you are in.
> 
> Right now, I want you to start practicing getting as low as you possibly can when the board is across the fall line and making your edge change before the board dives down into the fall line. As soon as the turn is established, slowly extend up through the turn to increase edge pressure. Do this all the way through the apex of turn; you should be most extended at apex and most flexed as the crosses the fall line. As the board passes through the apex of the turn and you are steering it back out of the fall line across the hill, slowly begin to flex again and if heelside, squat into more and more as is drives through the bottom of the turn.
> 
> Later on, fore-aft movements will need to be added to increase effectiveness but at your stage of riding, focus on learning each new task one at a time. Really focus on flexion/extension.
> 
> Now, when you come out of the bottom of your turn , if you feel the chatter start, imediately loosen up even more. The natural reaction is to stiffen up and push the edge harder. The reason the chatter is happening is because you are loosing edge hold. Pushing against it now will only cause the edge to totally blow out and skid out of control to the outside of the turn. Anytime shit starts to go wrong snowboarding, bend something!
> 
> Give this a try and let us know how it felt and what the difference was regarding board performance.


This. All of it.

I was up in Seattle and I kept washing out heel side on steeps and at speed. It's actually a problem I've had going back a few seasons if I'm not almost bombing the run straight down. Could never figure it out (toe side was no problemo) until I read a few threads in here.

You can do just put your ass into it :yahoo:

Seriously, I just squatted as far as I needed to until the board stopped chattering and skipping the snow. I always had a problem carving heel side and this solved it. It's amazing what a little technique change does for you.


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## jdang307

By the way, it's scary to look down a steep run but remember, falling on steep runs don't hurt all that much usually. If it's icy a butt bruise might result, but nothing comparing to falling on a green (ouch!)


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## poutanen

wernersl said:


> To further challenge myself I will just ollie the lip at the start of the steep and push through it. That was a big change for me this year, and guess what...you fuck up a lot less when you have confidence in yourself and just go for it.


This is one of the most fun things to do on-piste. When the rest of the crowd is standing at the top of a lip looking down the steep section in horror, you come along and pop off the lip. Get 10 feet of air and get right back into a solid carve... Makes you feel good! :yahoo:


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## snowman55

jdang307 said:


> By the way, it's scary to look down a steep run but remember, falling on steep runs don't hurt all that much usually. If it's icy a butt bruise might result, but nothing comparing to falling on a green (ouch!)


That is so true. Catching an edge on a flat terrain when least expecting it hurts like hell.


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## snowman55

Keeping low to the ground also has other adavantages besides one mentioned already.

If you are lower to the ground and you fall, it hurts less.

When I ride steep terrain, getting low on turns help me slow down without side slipping. The slower I want to get, the lower I try to bend my knees and ankles.


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## wernersl

poutanen said:


> This is one of the most fun things to do on-piste. When the rest of the crowd is standing at the top of a lip looking down the steep section in horror, you come along and pop off the lip. Get 10 feet of air and get right back into a solid carve... Makes you feel good! :yahoo:


^^ This! Love the looks ya get when you pop off next to the crowd. Just dont eat shit! Usually do this after the first run...Never know what youre gonna get at Bear!


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## jdang307

poutanen said:


> This is one of the most fun things to do on-piste. When the rest of the crowd is standing at the top of a lip looking down the steep section in horror, you come along and pop off the lip. Get 10 feet of air and get right back into a solid carve... Makes you feel good! :yahoo:


I started doing this last year and man it's freaky but feels so damn good when you do it. If you're going fast enough you go faaaaaaaaaar depending on the steep.

It takes hella balls to ollie (sometimes I'll just pop) when you can't see the slope. It's literally like jumping off a cliff.


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## Slush Puppie

jdang307 said:


> By the way, it's scary to look down a steep run but remember, falling on steep runs don't hurt all that much usually. If it's icy a butt bruise might result, but nothing comparing to falling on a green (ouch!)


Yeah but once it gets steep enough that you're not gonna easily stop if you fall it kinda swings back the other way


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## jdang307

Slush Puppie said:


> Yeah but once it gets steep enough that you're not gonna easily stop if you fall it kinda swings back the other way


It doesn't hurt. You just keep sliding, and sliding, and sliding.

I remember one time I was going pretty fast on a steep and man I must have slid 40 feet by the time I gathered myself and stopped (had to dig an edge). 

By the time you're on that kind of slope you better be decent anyway.


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## redlude97

jdang307 said:


> It doesn't hurt. You just keep sliding, and sliding, and sliding.
> 
> I remember one time I was going pretty fast on a steep and man I must have slid 40 feet by the time I gathered myself and stopped (had to dig an edge).
> 
> By the time you're on that kind of slope you better be decent anyway.


You probably weren't going very fast when you fell then. Steeps can F you up bigtime if you charge them. You don't just simply slide all the time.


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## jdang307

redlude97 said:


> You probably weren't going very fast when you fell then. Steeps can F you up bigtime if you charge them. You don't just simply slide all the time.


Yes of course. I thought we were discussing the context of a new guy afraid of the steeps to conquer it.

You can crack your head slipping and falling on a banana peel while standing still


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## wernersl

Oh it can really freakin hurt. Took a tailbone shot early this season on a double black...icy mogul. Bled speed at the wrong time! Still hurts today. On the flipside...lost my edge a couple seasons ago on Scotty's at Mammoth. Second turn in on an icy morning, heel edge lifted and down I went. Buddies estimated I traveled 1/4 mile on my ass! Didnt hurt a bit but took some coordination on my part not to spin or tumble during the slide. Just have to go with it and try not to stand back up if your board is in front of you.


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## jdang307

wernersl said:


> Oh it can really freakin hurt. Took a tailbone shot early this season on a double black...icy mogul. Bled speed at the wrong time! Still hurts today. On the flipside...lost my edge a couple seasons ago on Scotty's at Mammoth. Second turn in on an icy morning, heel edge lifted and down I went. Buddies estimated I traveled 1/4 mile on my ass! Didnt hurt a bit but took some coordination on my part not to spin or tumble during the slide. Just have to go with it and try not to stand back up if your board is in front of you.


Yessir that's why I included the caveat



> If it's icy a butt bruise might result


Ice is no bueno and I'll just leave the blacks if it's ice.


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## stickz

jdang307 said:


> Yes of course. I thought we were discussing the context of a new guy afraid of the steeps to conquer it.
> 
> You can crack your head slipping and falling on a banana peel while standing still


I'm not afraid of the steeps at all. I just don't have the technique to ride them correctly. dude I went down them my 6th time ever at a mtn. fear is a emotion I have no time for. I just say fuck it and go. I do need all the technique tips I can get though.


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## stickz

so my knees hurt like shit, but my speed increased my 3 times from last week. I realized that when I got choppy it was for not bending over the board and or bending my knees. I had way more control, and made it down 3 black diamond runs without falling or sideslipping


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## jdang307

stickz said:


> I'm not afraid of the steeps at all. I just don't have the technique to ride them correctly. dude I went down them my 6th time ever at a mtn. fear is a emotion I have no time for. I just say fuck it and go. I do need all the technique tips I can get though.


Where do you ride? I'm thinking a nice black in Tahoe or Seattle will make most people scared by their 6th day.

I rode blacks my 3rd day but it was at Bear Mountain. It's essentially a mild blue.

Was staring down double blacks in Seattle and you wonder how the snow sticks at all.


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## wildshoetwt

it sounds to me like it is -possible- that you had some heel overhang that was popping your board out from underneath you, though that is probably unlikely so here's my advice

1) lean forward, the tendency to lean back is great on the steeps, but this is essentially putting on the brakes and will make it almost impossible to link turns. you need your weight forward as you enter turns, my bet is that you are favoring toeside, which you start with your weight forward, but you are gaining speed too quickly so you go to make that heelside turn and you are instinctively standing up/putting your weight back/braking and landing on your butt as a result. 

2) get comfortable. at speed. there is no way to properly navigate most steeps without a certain amount of speed, the only time when you should consider taking a steep slowly/slower is if it is extremely steep or icy. if you find that you are fine with speed, but not necessarily speed on a steep hill, you probably haven't learned to fall properly. watch bob burnquist fall and you'll realize why most people eat it so hard and why that is so unnecessary. you want to slide your falls out, and you want to absorb them as slowly as possible, you do not want to catch yourself/stop yourself instantaneously, especially with your wrist, legs, ankles, ...head...






once you are comfortable with falling and realize that it -will- happen, you need to get comfortable knowing that to progress you need to be comfortable taking on what may feel like more risk. in reality, i'll take a high speed heelside fall on most steeps to a high speed toeside catch on near flat ground anyday. 

3) accept that you will have to treat the terrain more seriously and ride dynamically. until you are better, you will have to be more concious of the terrain, the quality of the snow, the turns you are making, the types of turns you are making, and where you are going to make them. you will have to learn to move your weight back and forth as you turn. generally speaking you want your weight forward as you initiate each turn and your weight back as you end it. 

4) stop trying to carve. it sounds like you are trying to carve a steep on your heelside at slow speed, which is just asking for a butt-beating the second your board catches any edge. again speed will help you here, you might feel less stable but you are going too slow to carve and your board is probably not stiff enough to handle it. so learn to link skidded turns or skidded stopping turns (not what you think it is, but what your skidded turns -MUST- turn into when you start facing 50 degree plus icy, narrow, rocky terrain)

5) do some less-steep mogul-covered runs as aggressively as possible. this will get you used to being semi-out-of-control of your brakes since the moguls will largely dictate where you can brake, which will let you realize that you don't always have to be in control of your speed. additionally it will teach you how to snowboard dynamically which is the most important thing you need to start progressing. you will learn how to turn properly as well since you will have to have your weight forward as you begin to crest a mogul, and you will probably instinctively turn/brake after each mogul, meaning you will learn to start your turns with your weight forward and finish them with your weight back. this is good stuff and will definitely make the slightly steeper terrain you face more manageable, as your legs, body, and board will find the less dynamic riding much more reasonable.

the best advice i can give you though is to make an effort to keep your weight forward and ride outside your comfort zone so long as you are not endangering anyone else. you will endanger yourself, and you will fall, but you can't get scared or let the pain dictate your future riding. everytime you face a steep you need to be thinking aggressively. its sort of like forcing yourself to jump into a pool of ice cold water. i go through this every season. i approach a steep and instinctively put my weight back and start to slide on my ass/stomach down, and i have to force myself to get my weight forward.


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## stickz

jdang307 said:


> Where do you ride? I'm thinking a nice black in Tahoe or Seattle will make most people scared by their 6th day.
> 
> I rode blacks my 3rd day but it was at Bear Mountain. It's essentially a mild blue.
> 
> Was staring down double blacks in Seattle and you wonder how the snow sticks at all.


I ride at Stevens


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## stickz

wildshoetwt said:


> it sounds to me like it is -possible- that you had some heel overhang that was popping your board out from underneath you, though that is probably unlikely so here's my advice
> 
> 1) lean forward, the tendency to lean back is great on the steeps, but this is essentially putting on the brakes and will make it almost impossible to link turns. you need your weight forward as you enter turns, my bet is that you are favoring toeside, which you start with your weight forward, but you are gaining speed too quickly so you go to make that heelside turn and you are instinctively standing up/putting your weight back/braking and landing on your butt as a result.
> 
> 2) get comfortable. at speed. there is no way to properly navigate most steeps without a certain amount of speed, the only time when you should consider taking a steep slowly/slower is if it is extremely steep or icy. if you find that you are fine with speed, but not necessarily speed on a steep hill, you probably haven't learned to fall properly. watch bob burnquist fall and you'll realize why most people eat it so hard and why that is so unnecessary. you want to slide your falls out, and you want to absorb them as slowly as possible, you do not want to catch yourself/stop yourself instantaneously, especially with your wrist, legs, ankles, ...head...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> once you are comfortable with falling and realize that it -will- happen, you need to get comfortable knowing that to progress you need to be comfortable taking on what may feel like more risk. in reality, i'll take a high speed heelside fall on most steeps to a high speed toeside catch on near flat ground anyday.
> 
> 3) accept that you will have to treat the terrain more seriously and ride dynamically. until you are better, you will have to be more concious of the terrain, the quality of the snow, the turns you are making, the types of turns you are making, and where you are going to make them. you will have to learn to move your weight back and forth as you turn. generally speaking you want your weight forward as you initiate each turn and your weight back as you end it.
> 
> 4) stop trying to carve. it sounds like you are trying to carve a steep on your heelside at slow speed, which is just asking for a butt-beating the second your board catches any edge. again speed will help you here, you might feel less stable but you are going too slow to carve and your board is probably not stiff enough to handle it. so learn to link skidded turns or skidded stopping turns (not what you think it is, but what your skidded turns -MUST- turn into when you start facing 50 degree plus icy, narrow, rocky terrain)
> 
> 5) do some less-steep mogul-covered runs as aggressively as possible. this will get you used to being semi-out-of-control of your brakes since the moguls will largely dictate where you can brake, which will let you realize that you don't always have to be in control of your speed. additionally it will teach you how to snowboard dynamically which is the most important thing you need to start progressing. you will learn how to turn properly as well since you will have to have your weight forward as you begin to crest a mogul, and you will probably instinctively turn/brake after each mogul, meaning you will learn to start your turns with your weight forward and finish them with your weight back. this is good stuff and will definitely make the slightly steeper terrain you face more manageable, as your legs, body, and board will find the less dynamic riding much more reasonable.
> 
> the best advice i can give you though is to make an effort to keep your weight forward and ride outside your comfort zone so long as you are not endangering anyone else. you will endanger yourself, and you will fall, but you can't get scared or let the pain dictate your future riding. everytime you face a steep you need to be thinking aggressively. its sort of like forcing yourself to jump into a pool of ice cold water. i go through this every season. i approach a steep and instinctively put my weight back and start to slide on my ass/stomach down, and i have to force myself to get my weight forward.


thanks for the great advice. I'm comfortable at speed as I'm a dh skateboarder, and I only got down the steeps today by linking dynamic skidded turns going slow on the groomed steep last week was like you said almost impossible to try and link turns. I did do something way outta my comfort zone today. on the left face of outer limits was a really steep mogul run and I made it down most if the way, really fresh powder. then hit some ice and then lost my edge and crashed hard. hit my head really hard. have a huge bruise on my eye, but it didn't hurt thanks to my helmet. leaning forward and really bending my knees was amazingly more successful on the same run I couldn't make it down last week.


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## jdang307

stickz said:


> I ride at Stevens


Then I must commend you, Stevens is quite steep. Was just there two weeks ago. Double Diamond off Big Chief is pretty steep


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## stickz

jdang307 said:


> Then I must commend you, Stevens is quite steep. Was just there two weeks ago. Double Diamond off Big Chief is pretty steep


I was mostly doing the Aquarius face off the backside. but my brother in law loves that DB run. I found a sweet tree run off to the far right off the big chief chair today...


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## jdang307

stickz said:


> I was mostly doing the Aquarius face off the backside. but my brother in law loves that DB run. I found a sweet tree run off to the far right off the big chief chair today...


Ok, Acquarius isn't too bad. But it's a legit black. We had a sweet run down acquarius, then it mellows to a blue and we kept far left and went to the outer limits. Nice fun little run.


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## wildshoetwt

jdang307 said:


> Then I must commend you, Stevens is quite steep. Was just there two weeks ago. Double Diamond off Big Chief is pretty steep



yep, OR, UT and CO, and to a lesser extent CA and NV are notorious for being a notch more difficult than most other resorts, and 2 or more notches more difficult than many small-mountain resorts. 

if you can ride the steeps on big-mountain resorts @ OR you should be decently well prepared for almost all steeps...except the moguled up ones on the ice coast :dunno: still havent really figured how to ace those at even a semi respectable pace


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## wildshoetwt

Snowolf said:


> Cool!
> 
> Glad this is working for you better. It's amazing what proper timing of your flexion extension movements will do for your dynamic skidded turns on technical steeps! Keep this up and start incorporating your fore-aft movements that we talked about as well and really pay attention to the timing. Go to a blue cruiser and ride at speed then dial in you fore-aft here before going back to the steeper terrain. As you do your turns, shift your hips as far toward the nose as is comfortable and initiate the turn. Before the nose of the board points down the run and just before turn apex, shift your board as far forward as you comfortably can and retract the back leg a little. It should almost feel like setting up for an Ollie! Feel how the board just rockets through turn completion with incredible edge hold, smoothness and fluid movement. Get a rhythm going and dial in your timing. In a short while, you are going to really dig the way this feels and will start wanting to use fore-aft all of the time. Then go back to that technical steep armed with this new skill and feel the difference!
> 
> 
> As you know, on technical steeps, it is imperative to shift toward the nose for turn initiation but you can't stay there through the turn. As that board reaches the apex of the turn, remember to shift your board out ahead of you so that you are fully aft through the bottom of the turn. This increases edge pressure as well as tightens the turn to get the board pointing slightly back up hill allowing you to change edges before the fall line line and work the top of the turn. The steeper it is the more intense your fore-aft movements must be.
> 
> I am thrilled at how much my own riding on technical steeps has improved by really improving my own fore-aft movements through attending training. I am actually carving (not skidding) 45 degree pitches now. Not long ago, I had to use hop turns on technical steeps, now I am carving them!
> 
> This is Chute 225 in A Zone Heather Canyon at Mt. Hood Meadows on Friday where I carved about 90% of the time and dynamic skidded the rest. No hop turns!


this is excellent advice and you if you watch go pros of say jeremy jones bombing a supersteep you will see that his board disappears from view as he exits turns and reappears as he enters them. that is how dramatic this movement needs to be to stay under control on faces like this. 






notice how each time he initiates a turn you see less of his board and each time he begins to complete a turn you see the most of his board. this should give you a great feel for what is being discussed albeit more intense and with a bit more skid/braking than you should probably have on the runs you are working on


----------



## stickz

Snowolf said:


> Cool!
> 
> Glad this is working for you better. It's amazing what proper timing of your flexion extension movements will do for your dynamic skidded turns on technical steeps! Keep this up and start incorporating your fore-aft movements that we talked about as well and really pay attention to the timing. Go to a blue cruiser and ride at speed then dial in you fore-aft here before going back to the steeper terrain. As you do your turns, shift your hips as far toward the nose as is comfortable and initiate the turn. Before the nose of the board points down the run and just before turn apex, shift your board as far forward as you comfortably can and retract the back leg a little. It should almost feel like setting up for an Ollie! Feel how the board just rockets through turn completion with incredible edge hold, smoothness and fluid movement. Get a rhythm going and dial in your timing. In a short while, you are going to really dig the way this feels and will start wanting to use fore-aft all of the time. Then go back to that technical steep armed with this new skill and feel the difference!
> 
> 
> As you know, on technical steeps, it is imperative to shift toward the nose for turn initiation but you can't stay there through the turn. As that board reaches the apex of the turn, remember to shift your board out ahead of you so that you are fully aft through the bottom of the turn. This increases edge pressure as well as tightens the turn to get the board pointing slightly back up hill allowing you to change edges before the fall line line and work the top of the turn. The steeper it is the more intense your fore-aft movements must be.
> 
> I am thrilled at how much my own riding on technical steeps has improved by really improving my own fore-aft movements through attending training. I am actually carving (not skidding) 45 degree pitches now. Not long ago, I had to use hop turns on technical steeps, now I am carving them!
> 
> This is Chute 225 in A Zone Heather Canyon at Mt. Hood Meadows on Friday where I carved about 90% of the time and dynamic skidded the rest. No hop turns!


I'm a little confused on how to actually shift my board forward. is it just straightening your legs faster? and when you say move your hips forward. should I do this by turning them or sliding them forward. while lifting my back foot a little I'm assuming this really helps initiate the next turn? thanks bro really love All the instruction. just want to make sure I'm practicing the right movements.


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## Donutz

stickz said:


> I'm a little confused on how to actually shift my board forward. is it just straightening your legs faster? and when you say move your hips forward. should I do this by turning them or sliding them forward. while lifting my back foot a little I'm assuming this really helps initiate the next turn? thanks bro really love All the instruction. just want to make sure I'm practicing the right movements.


Stand on your board on the flats and just slide it forward and back under you. Same kind of motion. Also like the motion you do at the beginning of an ollie.


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## marlo_df

Pardon my ignorance here, not wanting to start a new thread and thought this is somewhat related. With regards to slope grading is black diamond the same category as a red in Europe?


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## wildshoetwt

Donutz said:


> Stand on your board on the flats and just slide it forward and back under you. Same kind of motion. Also like the motion you do at the beginning of an ollie.


+1 great way to describe this


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## cocolulu

I just want to clarify some things about the fore/aft movement techniques.

So at the top (is this what we mean by 'apex' of a turn?), just as you switch edges, you lean/pressure the front of your board to set the edge in the snow.

As your board makes its arc, your board will point down the fall line. At this point, should you be balanced?

The board will continue its arc after you cross the fall line, and I can understand that you have to shift to put weight on the back of the board to keep the edge engaged... primarily to prevent the back of the board from slipping out and losing your edge (correct?).

Then, just as you switch edges for the next turn, you shuffle quickly from back to front, and continue?


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## LuckyRVA

marlo_df said:


> Pardon my ignorance here, not wanting to start a new thread and thought this is somewhat related. With regards to slope grading is black diamond the same category as a red in Europe?


In North America the trail rating goes (from easiest to hardest): 

Green
Blue
Black 
Double Black


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## wildshoetwt

cocolulu said:


> I just want to clarify some things about the fore/aft movement techniques.
> 
> So at the top (is this what we mean by 'apex' of a turn?), just as you switch edges, you lean/pressure the front of your board to set the edge in the snow.
> 
> As your board makes its arc, your board will point down the fall line. At this point, should you be balanced?
> 
> The board will continue its arc after you cross the fall line, and I can understand that you have to shift to put weight on the back of the board to keep the edge engaged... primarily to prevent the back of the board from slipping out and losing your edge (correct?).
> 
> Then, just as you switch edges for the next turn, you shuffle quickly from back to front, and continue?












I hope Snowolf is ok with me sharing his diagram, it helped me greatly. 

The apex is the widest point of your turn/carve, as you reach the apex you should be fairly centered with your board, i.e. no forward or backward pressure , just downward pressure. 

My understanding of the perfect turn (which I hope Snowolf will correct as he sees fit) is that you begin with a quick bend of the knees, almost like you are preparing to ollie on a skateboard.

















This serves two purposes, one...getting your weight forward, and two creating a moment of semi-weightlessness in which you can safely re-engage a new edge. Many riders will "hop" from edge to edge which has it's time and place but you generally do not want to get accustomed to throwing yourself away from the side of the mountain, I believe that this is the safest way to unweight the snowboard and get it on a new edge. Snowolf will refer to this movement a down-unweight.










So now you are entering a turn with your weight forward and your knees bent, now again, while it definitely takes balls to start each new turn on a steep with your weight forward, it also takes balls to slowly release forward pressure/weight on the board and shift it backwards, the tendency is to either release too fast (brake) or release too slow (and start traversing), so the moment you begin making a turn you want to think about and visualize a curve(carve) and commit yourself to following that line.

As you begin to come to the apex of the turn, you want to be thinking of neutral force on the board, no backwards or forwards pressure, but rather simply downwards pressure on the edge, as you exit the apex and begin completing the turn you should be fully neutral and shifting your weight/pressure onto the tail of the board, this is where many have the tendency to skid-out their turns and this might be unavoidable in less favorable snow conditions (or more favorable deep powdery conditions)




























Eventually as you ride the turn out you will decide (very rapidly as you begin to catch speed) that it tis time to set a new edge and start a new turn (and bleed some speed off), this is when you shift your weight forward, drop your chest to your knees and set a new edge and begin the process all over again.

This is sort of my breakdown of the process, my opinion is that riders struggling with steeps have the most trouble at the beginning of the turns, where they want their weight backwards to feel safe, and at the apex, where they want their weight to in an extreme forward/back stance which will accordingly traverse/brake your board accordingly.

Another thing is not to focus on looking down the steep face in horror, and just concentrate on looking where you want to go, if you are constantly looking straight down the mountain, your board will just traverse/sideslip down the mountain, use your forward hand to reach out and guide your weight forward/out and use your rear hand to reach back and guide your weight back/in.


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## poutanen

wildshoetwt said:


>


I fapped. :blink:


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## cocolulu

wildshoetwt said:


> words words words...


Awesome, thanks for the explanation. That really helped!


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## edlo

Snowolf said:


> Sideslipping a technical steep is a crime against humanity; if you can`t turn on on it, stay off of it and dont scrape all the of the good snow off of the hill and ruin it for others.


Does sideslipping improve icy conditions? Sometimes I'll go on a run in the morning and it is icy but then it gets kind of fluffy at like 3 or 4 o oclock? Some of these runs are pretty busy and they dont run the cats in the daytime, or is it the temperature?


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## wildshoetwt

edlo said:


> Does sideslipping improve icy conditions? Sometimes I'll go on a run in the morning and it is icy but then it gets kind of fluffy at like 3 or 4 o oclock? Some of these runs are pretty busy and they dont run the cats in the daytime, or is it the temperature?


fluffy? maybe in the same way that a snocone is fluffy. shaved ice. beneath that shaved ice there is still going to be ultra-hard-hardpack...

my guess is you are confusing hardpack with ice. hardpack -can- improve with use though it won't be the most stable ride, it will better support aggressive snowboarding.

ice only gets more slipppery and more frustratingly slick and dangerous in the afternoon. night boarding in icy conditions is unadvisable because you can't see the shine/sheen of the icy areas and you -will- pay for it if you try to board aggressively. in other words there is no good time of day to snowboard on ice.


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## brucew.

edlo said:


> Does sideslipping improve icy conditions? Sometimes I'll go on a run in the morning and it is icy but then it gets kind of fluffy at like 3 or 4 o oclock? Some of these runs are pretty busy and they dont run the cats in the daytime, or is it the temperature?


No, sideslipping never helps the conditions. The rise in temperature is probably the reason why.


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## poutanen

brucew. said:


> No, sideslipping never helps the conditions. The rise in temperature is probably the reason why.


100% and just like the previous poster there's a big difference between hardpack and ice. Hardpack can soften and turn into looser snow as the day warms up, but ice is already ice. The only thing it can do it melt.

Here's what I think is the difference between hardpack and ice. You'll get icey patches, you won't get hardpack patches, entire runs will be hardpack. If they groom packed powder and it gets significantly colder overnight and freezes up it's hardpack.


----------



## stickz

Snowolf said:


> Cool!
> 
> Glad this is working for you better. It's amazing what proper timing of your flexion extension movements will do for your dynamic skidded turns on technical steeps! Keep this up and start incorporating your fore-aft movements that we talked about as well and really pay attention to the timing. Go to a blue cruiser and ride at speed then dial in you fore-aft here before going back to the steeper terrain. As you do your turns, shift your hips as far toward the nose as is comfortable and initiate the turn. Before the nose of the board points down the run and just before turn apex, shift your board as far forward as you comfortably can and retract the back leg a little. It should almost feel like setting up for an Ollie! Feel how the board just rockets through turn completion with incredible edge hold, smoothness and fluid movement. Get a rhythm going and dial in your timing. In a short while, you are going to really dig the way this feels and will start wanting to use fore-aft all of the time. Then go back to that technical steep armed with this new skill and feel the difference!
> 
> 
> As you know, on technical steeps, it is imperative to shift toward the nose for turn initiation but you can't stay there through the turn. As that board reaches the apex of the turn, remember to shift your board out ahead of you so that you are fully aft through the bottom of the turn. This increases edge pressure as well as tightens the turn to get the board pointing slightly back up hill allowing you to change edges before the fall line line and work the top of the turn. The steeper it is the more intense your fore-aft movements must be.
> 
> I am thrilled at how much my own riding on technical steeps has improved by really improving my own fore-aft movements through attending training. I am actually carving (not skidding) 45 degree pitches now. Not long ago, I had to use hop turns on technical steeps, now I am carving them!
> 
> This is Chute 225 in A Zone Heather Canyon at Mt. Hood Meadows on Friday where I carved about 90% of the time and dynamic skidded the rest. No hop turns!


these aft movements are awesome, I finally dynamic skidded turned uphill and fast and sharp made it down Aquarius face with no problems was told I even did a couple double black treen runs.


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## stickz

snowolf what's the next thing I should start incorporating into my riding?


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## stickz

Snowolf said:


> Well, for dynamic skidded short radius turns on steeps, we have talked about flexion-extension and fore-aft movements. Keep practicing both and increase the intensity of the movements as the terrain becomes more challenging. Additionally, experiment with your timing of these movements on different terrain. As the pitch increases, you will find that you need to initiate these movements a little earlier in your turn to account for lag time that exists between executing a movement and the board responding. This lag is not noticeable on typical resort terrain but can have a profound impact upon board performance on technical steeps.
> 
> The next concept to incorporate into your dynamic riding is "upper-lower body separation". In essence, this simply means allowing the lower body to rotate indendent of the upper body. The lower spine becomes the pivot point that allows the hips and legs to rotate under a stationary upper body.
> 
> Just as we can actively rotate our shoulders and upper body in either an anticipatory rotation to generate board pivot or a counter rotation to slow or stop board pivot, we can allow our board to generate lower body rotation while maintaining a stationary upper body. The edging movements and sidecut of the board generate these rotational forces.
> 
> So, as riders, why do we care about this? From day one, we have been told to keep our upper body aligned with our board right? Well, for 90% of resort freeriding, this remains true and is good riding habits. But, when we start riding steep terrain, moguls, steep trees, chutes, etc, we need quicker board response. In these riding environments, we want to align our shoulders with the slope or general direction of intended travel instead of aligned with the board.
> 
> The reason has a lot to do with lag time as mentioned earlier. The more mass to move, the slower it starts and stops; if you remain aligned with your board, you must start and stop your entire mass as you initiate and complete every turn. On technical steeps, this will create substantial lag time in every turn as you rotate your entire mass nearly 180 degrees every turn.
> 
> Now, if you position your shoulders inline with your direction of travel, you no longer have to start and stop your entire mass every turn. Allowing your lower spine to swivel freely, you can use twist and tilt to energetically turn your snowboard more effectively and efficiently without having to also turn your upper body along with it. Additionally, since the upper and lower body naturally want to realign, the snowboard will have a little extra rotational force upon it favoring a return to your general direction of travel down the will. In short, it initiate every turn quicker with better edge engagement and less skid. This is what is crucial on technical steeps to maintain control throuout the entire turn as well as maintain a desired speed.
> 
> So, to start practicing this, pick a nice blue run that is nice and straight. As you begin, pick an object that is straight down the run long distance; can be a tree, sign, lift tower, building, etc. Point your front arm at that object and keep it there. Place your back hand on your hip to help prevent "wagging the dog". As you ride, use your feet to twist and tilt your board through the turns allowing the sidecut to do the work. As the board turns, loosen up the lower spine to freely allow your hips and legs to move around with the board and rotate underneath your generally static, stable upper body. Some upper body rotation will still happen but your goal is eliminate all of it and keep your shoulders aligned with the slope. Every time your board is across the fall line, heelside or toeside, there will be an approximate 90 degree twist in the lower spine. Understand that at first, you may not have this range of motion and some upper body rotation may exist. With practice and stretching excercises such as Yoga, this is totally attainable.
> 
> Get the feeling of this technique which is also a huge part of doing correct "cross under turns". When ready, start incorporating this into your dynamic steeps riding and prepare to take your riding to the next level!


awesome thank you so much. you have been a gigantic step in my progression. I have already been doing this a little but I will do it all day next week. if this were a golf forum you would be asking me for $50 a Internet lesson. gotta love a boarders giving attitude......


----------



## wildshoetwt

stickz said:


> awesome thank you so much. you have been a gigantic step in my progression. I have already been doing this a little but I will do it all day next week. if this were a golf forum you would be asking me for $50 a Internet lesson. gotta love a boarders giving attitude......


i 2nd that. i learned more applying the things snowolf posted here than in 3 years of intermittent boarding. 

snowolf what you just described, you can link turns that way, i.e. crossover turns back and forth which is extremely aggressive and basically what we know as "bombing" correct? 

but i assume the more practical usage and the more dynamic and situational application would be learning how to stay with your shoulders aligned with the fall line while the board flexes+extends (absorbs) and slashes through the moguls?

also when you watch people like travis rice bombing steeps, their go pro's don't really seem to move much, is this also an example of using lower rotation in powder while you keep your shoulders aligned/head facing down the fall line? 

what exactly is the advantage to this? when and where do you wan to use this?


----------



## stickz

I will be practicing this until the end of the season. my last day I will have someone go pro a few runs so you can see my progress and help me get better next season. this weekend I rode alot more black runs and had a blast. it's already making the blue runs that were so hard 3 weeks ago very easy.


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## snowman55

Check the video out below . There are some good examples of cross-under technique. Good examples at 2:45 and 4:45.

The guy in the orange/white jacket uses it alot in this video.


----------



## snowman55

A lot of good examples of dynamic riding in this video. Especially the guy in the purple jacket. Start at 2:10 mark.


----------



## wildshoetwt

But I don't get how these crossover turns help on steep terrain. They don't bleed any speed, they look plain reckless to try on 40+ degree slopes. 

Is the key to riding terrain like this

http://mammothsnowman.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/davesthetop-1024x768.jpg

Just staying as aggressive in your turn initiation as possible while skidding/bleeding out the most speed possible. It seems like if you don't really GO for it you just end up traversing or side slipping.


----------



## stickz

snowman55 said:


> A lot of good examples of dynamic riding in this video. Especially the guy in the purple jacket. Start at 2:10 mark.


I'm a little confused. I thought I was suppose to flex and extend into and outta turns. these dudes look like they are keeping their knees semi bent the entire time, maybe I'm seeing it wrong.


----------



## stickz

Snowolf said:


> Are you not seeing my posts? I posted a correct example; you are seeing things correctly. In that first video they were not riding dynamically and certainly not a cross under turn. Watch the video I posted.


I did, and sent you a pm about it lol...


----------



## snowman55

Snowolf said:


> Those in the first video were not anywhere close to being truly dynamic, short radius skidded turns. Believe me, when you do these turns correctly, you can ride down a narrow chute that is less than a groomer wide at a 45 degree pitch and keep your downslope speed at nearly a walking pace.
> 
> The exact reason for these turns is speed control on steep and narrow terrain. By maintaining solid edge engagement throughout all phases of the turn, you are reducing skid. Contrary to popular belief skid is NOT the most efficient way to control speed, turn shape is. By making more, tighter turns down a pitch with more time with the board traveling out of the fall line, the rider reduces downslope moment. Like a skid in a car, the skid through the bottom of a turn can actually cause downslope acceleration which can prevent the rider from regaining edge hold.
> 
> There are three main components of a good dynamic cross under turn and we have talked a little about each one. Aggressive flexion-extension, aggressive fore-aft and upper-lower body separation. When introducing and dialing in a complex task like dynamic cross under turns, it is best to break it down into its individual components and dial those in before putting them all together again to do the task.
> 
> The time and place for these turn other than just to have fun and improve your timing and form is on tight steep terrain in often variable conditions where a rider wants absolute speed control and edge hold but wants to make turns. Are there situations where a good rider may need to resort to hop turns or falling leaf/ sideslip? Damn right! As advanced riders we often get ourselves in those situations even more than we did as an intermediate. These turns are a tool that allows us to correctly ride increasingly challenging terrain, safer, more effectively and with more style which increases our fun level.
> 
> If you question how these turns help achieve that, review what you have already experienced working on the individual components. The flexion-extension resulted in a more controlled turn initiation and completion. The fore-aft movements resulted in the same. Using upper-lower body separation will increase control through all phases of the turn for the reasons discussed earlier. When you learn to put all three components together and perfect the timing, these turns open up a whole new dimension to your free riding skills on challenging terrain.


In your posts, I think you mentioned that all the turn is initiated with the front foot but in the video you posted, it looks like the rider is pushing and pulling both of his leg at the same time. Is that correct? Or is it just an optical illusion?

I can't see the fore/aft movements in the video.


----------



## wildshoetwt

Snowolf said:


> I can't tell about fore aft either because of camera angle so anybody's guess. Yes it looks like pushing and pulling but this is an effect not a cause. It is the rider's use of the sidecut to dynamically carve ( he is technically "scarving" somewhere between a skid and a carve, but he is using carving technique here, tilting his board on edge aggressively) these turns and it is the rapid board performance that it is requiring him to drastically flex and extend in order to stay in control of the board throughout all phases of the turn. As I said earlier, he cannot realistically complete his turns (coming across the fall line) here because the slope is much too flat and after one or two turns, he would be stopped. That is how effective these turns are at controlling speed if the rider fully completes each turn.


Can we see an example of this on 40degree+ grade? I feel retarded but I'm just not sure I understand...


----------



## wildshoetwt

Snowolf said:


> Absolutely! This week I will try to have a buddy video me doing this on a pitch like that. I am actually planning on adding a couple tutorial videos that go into this. I was going to do this last year but to be totally honest I did not feel that I had the technique down well e ought to demo it.


You may not know this but you have made snowboarding so much more enjoyable for me and I'm sure many others...

You da best. 

As an aside, what is the best way to recover from a slip to your butt/hands/knees? I have a bad habit of going into sideslip mode afterwards, on super-steeps it really seems difficult to get a turn started safely.

Also how do you handle drop ins to steeps, I throw on the brakes immediately, I assume this is not the proper way...but the wide carve I would set otherwise terrifies me...I think this is probably an example where crossover turns you are talking about are critical.


----------



## stickz

Snowolf said:


> Absolutely! This week I will try to have a buddy video me doing this on a pitch like that. I am actually planning on adding a couple tutorial videos that go into this. I was going to do this last year but to be totally honest I did not feel that I had the technique down well e ought to demo it.


this is great. I would love to see a riding steeps tutorial in a series of short videos... especially for next season... or the vacations I take before nov.


----------



## stickz

wildshoetwt said:


> You may not know this but you have made snowboarding so much more enjoyable for me and I'm sure many others...
> 
> You da best.
> 
> As an aside, what is the best way to recover from a slip to your butt/hands/knees? I have a bad habit of going into sideslip mode afterwards, on super-steeps it really seems difficult to get a turn started safely.
> 
> Also how do you handle drop ins to steeps, I throw on the brakes immediately, I assume this is not the proper way...but the wide carve I would set otherwise terrifies me...I think this is probably an example where crossover turns you are talking about are critical.


I drop in traversing a little either toeside or heelside then go into what we have been discussing. dynamic skidded turns with your weight very forward, this really makes it easy to initiate turns. the for aft movements of pushing the board out in front of you as far as you can at the apex of the turn will get you over that fear of carving. practice them on the blues. I just read what snowolf says like 30 times the. take notes with me to work on at the mountain. and whenever things get fucked up its because I'm being lazy and not riding dynamically.


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## snowman55

Is cross-under turns done with down-unweighting only? I thought I saw a video somewhere that talks about cross-under turns using up-unweighting.

thanks


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## jdang307

I am interested in this cross under stuff. I'll be trying it out on some flat stuff though :laugh:

I have to agree with the others. Your posts Snowolf make a huge difference when I actually stop and follow the advice. Helped me big time with jumps last week (small jumps of course) and had one of my best days yet ... At Bear Mountain :yahoo:


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## snowman55

Snowolf said:


> In a cross under turn, the rider is most extended at apex and most flexed at edge change when the board crosses under the body. To be most flexed at this point, the rider sort of has to down unweight.


I've been trying to do the down unweighting but it's been very difficult since I've been up unweighting from the day I started snowboarding. I'm so used to up unweighting, it's very difficult for me break that habit.

One more question. When you extend/flex, do you extend/flex both legs at the same time or do you extend/flex the front leg first, immediately followed by the back leg?

BTW, like others, I really appreciate your help. You've been very generous.


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## wernersl

jdang307 said:


> I am interested in this cross under stuff. I'll be trying it out on some flat stuff though :laugh:
> 
> I have to agree with the others. Your posts Snowolf make a huge difference when I actually stop and follow the advice. Helped me big time with jumps last week (small jumps of course) and had one of my best days yet ... At Bear Mountain :yahoo:


Everyone there near the end of last week had one of the best days ever at Bear! Actually been getting decent snowfall over the last couple of weeks.


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## wildshoetwt

Snowolf said:


> In a cross under turn, the rider is most extended at apex and most flexed at edge change when the board crosses under the body. To be most flexed at this point, the rider sort of has to down unweight.


Thats it Thats all Freeriding, Travis Rice, Nicolas Müller and JeremyJones - YouTube

between 1:29 and 1:35

especially, those first few turns he takes, what category do these turns fall under?

why is it that they look rather simple/easy but i can't for the life of me imagine pulling something like this off on say 43 degree terrain, even when i aggressively push myself into a turn it just turns into a glorified sideslip/falling leaf...and god forbid i try to link that into another turn i just end up washing out my edge

it's not the easiest but i can swing/link some turns on 35-40 but anything higher and it's just not happening for me.


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## stickz

made my first powder turns today also went over 40mph(still seemed slow) did a couple double black tree runs. did some hiking to board in knee deep powder. bombed every blue run without ever slidesliping. dynamic skidded runs and a few carves. took a couple 3-4 foot drops. landed none. went down some really steep chutes. I was able to move my lower body separate from my upper body.


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## Treegreen

stickz said:


> made my first powder turns today also went over 40mph(still seemed slow) did a couple double black tree runs. did some hiking to board in knee deep powder. bombed every blue run without ever slidesliping. dynamic skidded runs and a few carves. *took a couple 3-4 foot drops. landed none.* went down some really steep chutes. I was able to move my lower body separate from my upper body.


Even non-landed powder drops are a blast!


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## stickz

Treegreen said:


> Even non-landed powder drops are a blast!


super fun. at least the last 2 my
board was straight


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## jtg

WTF, this is your first season and you're doing double blacks at stevens?

BTW, where is outer limits? It doesn't seem to be on the trail map.

Also, which blues did you find the best to practice these techniques on? The problem I have at stevens is moguls/bumps show up on the blue runs extremely quickly. I can do those, but it's not that easy to practice new turning techniques and deal with moguls or bumps at the same time. Instead of focusing on the correct motions, I'm worrying about hitting the next bump safely. Some are better than others so I'm curious what spots you found to be good.


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## stickz

DB not because of pitch but because of the difficulty with all the trees, and anywhere outta bounds is DB. outter limits is on the backside of the map to the far right. it's a little path. hogsback or Gemini for the blues. we should go ride together bro


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## seriouscat

So after another 3 hour lesson of free riding techniques. It seems like the pandora's box has been opened and everything that was learned previously have been called into question. 

I can do cross-unders no problem on smoother terrain, but had trouble with them on big bumps. We worked on super exaggerated twist motion then tried that with cross under movement/Down unweight while adding in upper body alignment. The whole thing feels like learning to snowboard again, info overload on the muscles, not mention the pain. :dizzy:

Then we practiced a few things that seemed complete opposite of snowboarding knowledge. Shoulder movement (not exceeding the new edge change direction, which required opening up slightly on carves and tight turns, the amount of opening is asymmetrical on toe and heel edge changes. It also dictates which edge is optimal for different terrain changes ahead. 

Then we went into reduces edge angle overall even on steep terrain, drill was trying push feet almost flat with terrain. The idea is with minimal twist you can spread some snow over the terrain coming up next and avoid digging into bumps/rocks trees underneath snow on variable conditions, and use the base to push against uneven ground to establish support.

The gist is that I need to make any movement that is not dependent on snow conditions as primary areas on control in off piste terrain. (Shuffle feet to move weight aft-fore, upper body movement, twist motions.) Seems completely opposite to the intermediate lessons. 

The advanced level of riding is like another ball game. I didn't think it would get this complicated. I thought I might be getting close at decent free riding, but it just seems like years of practice before I can proclaim to be proficient. :dunno:

Bonus points, learned how to euro carve (poorly) :yahoo:


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## jtg

stickz said:


> we should go ride together bro


Haha, when I started reading through the thread and saw you were around here and reasonably close in skill level I was gonna suggest that. Then within 2 weeks and a couple pages of the thread you are talking about shredding blacks with no problems and even doing DBs  Not sure I can keep up with you now! 

I think I'm pretty much where you were when you made the thread, side slipping a lot down blacks, struggling to link turns without stopping at every transition. Gonna study Snowolf's advice and try the same things. Last time out I tried Parachute (under hogsback chair) and that didn't go well at all haha. It didn't look *that* steep from the chair, but when I got on it, I felt like if I even initiated a turn, the momentum going into the next apex was going to send me rolling down that thing.


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## wildshoetwt

seriouscat said:


> So after another 3 hour lesson of free riding techniques. It seems like the pandora's box has been opened and everything that was learned previously have been called into question.
> 
> I can do cross-unders no problem on smoother terrain, but had trouble with them on big bumps. We worked on super exaggerated twist motion then tried that with cross under movement/Down unweight while adding in upper body alignment. The whole thing feels like learning to snowboard again, info overload on the muscles, not mention the pain. :dizzy:
> 
> Then we practiced a few things that seemed complete opposite of snowboarding knowledge. Shoulder movement (not exceeding the new edge change direction, which required opening up slightly on carves and tight turns, the amount of opening is asymmetrical on toe and heel edge changes. It also dictates which edge is optimal for different terrain changes ahead.
> 
> Then we went into reduces edge angle overall even on steep terrain, drill was trying push feet almost flat with terrain. The idea is with minimal twist you can spread some snow over the terrain coming up next and avoid digging into bumps/rocks trees underneath snow on variable conditions, and use the base to push against uneven ground to establish support.
> 
> The gist is that I need to make any movement that is not dependent on snow conditions as primary areas on control in off piste terrain. (Shuffle feet to move weight aft-fore, upper body movement, twist motions.) Seems completely opposite to the intermediate lessons.
> 
> The advanced level of riding is like another ball game. I didn't think it would get this complicated. I thought I might be getting close at decent free riding, but it just seems like years of practice before I can proclaim to be proficient. :dunno:
> 
> Bonus points, learned how to euro carve (poorly) :yahoo:



:dizzy: what did i just read... i feel like it's the key to my next progression but i can't for the life of me understand this.


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## redlude97

stickz said:


> DB not because of pitch but because of the difficulty with all the trees, and anywhere outta bounds is DB. outter limits is on the backside of the map to the far right. it's a little path. hogsback or Gemini for the blues. we should go ride together bro


Are you riding the trees just to the right of the powerlines or are you traversing far right past the out of bounds sign onto the other side of the creek bed? Most of that stuff is pretty mellow but fun. I don't really consider that area double black though. Stuff like wild katz, most of the drops into tye bowl and the chutes up on 7th heaven are where you really can get yourself into trouble.


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## wildshoetwt

redlude97 said:


> Are you riding the trees just to the right of the powerlines or are you traversing far right past the out of bounds sign onto the other side of the creek bed? Most of that stuff is pretty mellow but fun. I don't really consider that area double black though. Stuff like wild katz, most of the drops into tye bowl and the chutes up on 7th heaven are where you really can get yourself into trouble.


just an aside, i was at mammoth the other day near chair 9 riding some mellow off-trail fairly well-tracked/ridden trees, decided to carve up a ledge hoping to ride it for awhile and drop in on a steep slope on the other side...

rode it for about a minute, suddenly i see my buddy below me giving me the slit-throat/stop hand motion desperately. i screech to a halt and realized that the pow-drop i was heading for was actually a deceptively large and jagged (15ft) cliff drop with no real landing besides jagged rocks...

giving me even more shudders was the idea that i would have seen the rocks at the landing, tried to skid to a stop, and probably ended up skidding down a 15 foot rock face on my back only to land on rocks below. 

this was not only semi-on-trail but the cliff was marked by TWO signs that i missed. this (and tree wells) is why all off-trail riding should be rated double black and treated as such even if the terrain seems friendly. i was treating that ride like a green or easy blue, and it could have been deadly. 

i also thought it'd be wise to slide down a powdery 7' chute with my board detached and in hand ...to get back on trail instead of following the age old adage of always hiking out of hairy spots rather than hiking down them...it ended in a good amount of blood coming out of my hand and that is all i'll say. some serious lessons re-learned that day.


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## stickz

redlude97 said:


> Are you riding the trees just to the right of the powerlines or are you traversing far right past the out of bounds sign onto the other side of the creek bed? Most of that stuff is pretty mellow but fun. I don't really consider that area double black though. Stuff like wild katz, most of the drops into tye bowl and the chutes up on 7th heaven are where you really can get yourself into trouble.


the trees I was talking about are in the toilet bowl it's a long traverse. I was told it was. not even close to ready to ride wildkatz. I did hit the whinny chutes, haven't been to the death chutes yet. not ready or close to ready for 7th heaven... but the Hollywood bowl was awesome...


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## ig88

Snowolf said:


> ...... All dynamic riding is composed of the three primary riding tasks we have been discussing; flexion-extension,* fore-aft*, upper-lower body separation. The key to successfully riding dynamically is the application of these movements in concert with each other and understanding the principles of timing, intensity and duration.......


I am not sure if I already have got this fore-aft thing, most probably I don't because I have never made a point to practice it.

Is this fore-aft thing visible? Can you easily spot someone who has or hasn't it?


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## redlude97

wildshoetwt said:


> just an aside, i was at mammoth the other day near chair 9 riding some mellow off-trail fairly well-tracked/ridden trees, decided to carve up a ledge hoping to ride it for awhile and drop in on a steep slope on the other side...
> 
> rode it for about a minute, suddenly i see my buddy below me giving me the slit-throat/stop hand motion desperately. i screech to a halt and realized that the pow-drop i was heading for was actually a deceptively large and jagged (15ft) cliff drop with no real landing besides jagged rocks...
> 
> giving me even more shudders was the idea that i would have seen the rocks at the landing, tried to skid to a stop, and probably ended up skidding down a 15 foot rock face on my back only to land on rocks below.
> 
> this was not only semi-on-trail but the cliff was marked by TWO signs that i missed. this (and tree wells) is why all off-trail riding should be rated double black and treated as such even if the terrain seems friendly. i was treating that ride like a green or easy blue, and it could have been deadly.
> 
> i also thought it'd be wise to slide down a powdery 7' chute with my board detached and in hand ...to get back on trail instead of following the age old adage of always hiking out of hairy spots rather than hiking down them...it ended in a good amount of blood coming out of my hand and that is all i'll say. some serious lessons re-learned that day.


Good point actually, where stickz is talking about is definitely double black now that I really think about it. Like he said not because of the steepness or tightness of the trees, but because it is out of bounds, there are unmarked obstacles abound, including open running creek holes, some cliffs and lots of tree wells. If you know where you are going its easy to pick a good line but it is also easy to get yourself into trouble if you don't.


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## stickz

redlude97 said:


> Good point actually, where stickz is talking about is definitely double black now that I really think about it. Like he said not because of the steepness or tightness of the trees, but because it is out of bounds, there are unmarked obstacles abound, including open running creek holes, some cliffs and lots of tree wells. If you know where you are going its easy to pick a good line but it is also easy to get yourself into trouble if you don't.


I was with a friend who was very knowledgable about the area.


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## wrathfuldeity

redlude97 said:


> Good point actually, where stickz is talking about is definitely double black now that I really think about it. Like he said not because of the steepness or tightness of the trees, but because it is out of bounds, there are unmarked obstacles abound, including open running creek holes, some cliffs and lots of tree wells. If you know where you are going its easy to pick a good line but it is also easy to get yourself into trouble if you don't.


there are double black runs and then there is off piste and further...beyond the rope line; anyway after 10 years there are still places in bounds but I have not gotten the tour and will not go in til I get the tour and do a few laps...to make sure of the entrance, the line and exit.


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## stickz

jtg said:


> Haha, when I started reading through the thread and saw you were around here and reasonably close in skill level I was gonna suggest that. Then within 2 weeks and a couple pages of the thread you are talking about shredding blacks with no problems and even doing DBs  Not sure I can keep up with you now!
> 
> I think I'm pretty much where you were when you made the thread, side slipping a lot down blacks, struggling to link turns without stopping at every transition. Gonna study Snowolf's advice and try the same things. Last time out I tried Parachute (under hogsback chair) and that didn't go well at all haha. It didn't look *that* steep from the chair, but when I got on it, I felt like if I even initiated a turn, the momentum going into the next apex was going to send me rolling down that thing.


nah bro I'm sure your just as good we should def go together though. I know when I go with my buddy I met I here I get so much better everytime because he really pushes my limits. plus I would like to board with someone my level so we can bounce ideas and thing we've learned with each other. plus it's always fun to progress with someone and almost better to watch someone progress. I know when skating I am always so stoned when my friends get better and better. I believe we are going Friday and always go Monday. pm me and we will get this shit going....


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## NWBoarder

stickz said:


> I know when skating *I am always so stoned* when my friends get better and better.


Maybe you'd get better with them if you weren't always so stoned! Haha! :laugh: :blink:


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## stickz

NWBoarder said:


> Maybe you'd get better with them if you weren't always so stoned! Haha! :laugh: :blink:


lmao stoked oops. but I'm always super stoned. hehe


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## NWBoarder

Haha! I figured you meant stoked. But I just couldn't resist the free shot.


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## ig88

Snowolf said:


> Yep! You should see the rider visibly move forward a couple of inches from center. Toward the end of the turn, they should be a couple of inches aft of center. If viewed from the side, this is clearly visible. The steeper the terrain, the more aggressive this move should be.



Thanks. I don't think I could find someone to video me constantly from the side. Next time I will just make a note to appreciate what I might be doing as I enter a turn.


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## stickz

NWBoarder said:


> Haha! I figured you meant stoked. But I just couldn't resist the free shot.


I'm glad you did, I'm glad there are still people with a sense of humor ...


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## jtg

stickz said:


> nah bro I'm sure your just as good we should def go together though. I know when I go with my buddy I met I here I get so much better everytime because he really pushes my limits. plus I would like to board with someone my level so we can bounce ideas and thing we've learned with each other. plus it's always fun to progress with someone and almost better to watch someone progress. I know when skating I am always so stoned when my friends get better and better. I believe we are going Friday and always go Monday. pm me and we will get this shit going....


Cool, I'll give you a shout next time I'm going. I don't think I'll get to Stevens this week, thinking crystal tomorrow and maybe again on saturday. I usually get to stevens at least once a week though. Was gonna go today but the shuttle didn't run.

Sounds like you have people who know some good stashes. Most of the runs you talk about are not on trail maps. I've had a lot of fun on powder days going off by the power lines and usually falling on the steeps near the bottom there  Would like to try out some new spots though. Some of the out of bounds stuff doesn't look too intimidating but I'll probably heed the warnings of the experienced people advising against that for now.


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## stickz

Have now ridden every black run and with no to small moguls I can dynamic skidded turn down every run. May try 7th heaven this yr... May save it for next yr...


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## walove

They main run off seventh towards the top of hogs back is always a bump fest. Nancy Chute or solitude, lookers right as you go up the chair. 

you mentioned in your post in the stevens thread about a good way from souther cross back to the front side, you should try big cheif bowl. Take the traverse just below the top of the Double Diamond chair into the bowl. The entrance is a little tight but it opens up. Steeper turns on the near side of the bowl, the further you traverse across the bowl the mellower the slope is.


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## stickz

What are some tips to stop skidding so much and start carving more


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## stickz

walove said:


> They main run off seventh towards the top of hogs back is always a bump fest. Nancy Chute or solitude, lookers right as you go up the chair.
> 
> you mentioned in your post in the stevens thread about a good way from souther cross back to the front side, you should try big cheif bowl. Take the traverse just below the top of the Double Diamond chair into the bowl. The entrance is a little tight but it opens up. Steeper turns on the near side of the bowl, the further you traverse across the bowl the mellower the slope is.


I've been wanting to ride this and the tye bowl


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## walove

meant to say "Nancy Chute or solitude, lookers right as you go up the chair are the best runs off seventh heaven"



stickz said:


> I've been wanting to ride this and the tye bowl


the slope in tye bowl is mellow, the traverse into it is pretty obvious from the chair. When the moon is full you can take night runs through the bowl. Dont attempt to enter tye bowl from the top, there are a couple entrances but they are steep and boney.


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## stickz

walove said:


> meant to say "Nancy Chute or solitude, lookers right as you go up the chair are the best runs off seventh heaven"
> 
> 
> 
> the slope in tye bowl is mellow, the traverse into it is pretty obvious from the chair. When the moon is full you can take night runs through the bowl. Dont attempt to enter tye bowl from the top, there are a couple entrances but they are steep and boney.


Aren't those called the death chutes? So just traverse right under the top of the chair?


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## walove

the traverse into tye bowl is 100ft above tye rock, you can see it as you ride up the chair. Ride the chair line, or gully to riders left of the tye chair. As you near tye rock the gully ends and there is a wide opening riders right of the chair that enters the bowl. Once in the bowl, there are a couple small drops on the near side, or traverse across for lower angle open pow. All the tracks should funnel you into the exit trail, keep your speed on the exit its a little flat as you come out onto daisy.

"death chutes" are above big chief bowl, only named line into tye bowl from the top i know is "nasty gash"

ohh yeah, we are talking about making turns on steep runs...

get low, be powerful, stay in control. Hop turns will get you out of sticky situations.


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## Mrs. Robinson

Scott, you are amazing! We may plan our next trip around you.


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## stickz

walove said:


> the traverse into tye bowl is 100ft above tye rock, you can see it as you ride up the chair. Ride the chair line, or gully to riders left of the tye chair. As you near tye rock the gully ends and there is a wide opening riders right of the chair that enters the bowl. Once in the bowl, there are a couple small drops on the near side, or traverse across for lower angle open pow. All the tracks should funnel you into the exit trail, keep your speed on the exit its a little flat as you come out onto daisy.
> 
> "death chutes" are above big chief bowl, only named line into tye bowl from the top i know is "nasty gash"
> 
> ohh yeah, we are talking about making turns on steep runs...
> 
> get low, be powerful, stay in control. Hop turns will get you out of sticky situations.


Thanks dude. I'm good on the steeps now. No more side slipping


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