# New Snowboard Binding Design



## Rocker_Binding (Dec 23, 2010)

I've been working on a snowboard binding design and am looking to see what people think of it. The binding has a hinge which allows it to pivot along the length of the board (tip to tail) about 5 to 10 degrees. The hinge allows a shin s...trap to be put on the highback which gives support on toe edge turns (without the hinge you can't shift your weight tip to tail). Toe edge support is taken out of the board and your leg and is put in the binding. I'm not sure if you can put pictures here but have some up at Home Page . Let me know what you think.


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## BurtonAvenger (Aug 14, 2007)

The Angry Snowboarder Blog Archive The Rocker Binding Revolution all I can ask is why?


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## FlipsideJohn (Jan 19, 2010)

Lol
10char


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## JoeR (Oct 30, 2010)

Rocker_Binding said:


> I've been working on a snowboard binding design and am looking to see what people think of it. The binding has a hinge which allows it to pivot along the length of the board (tip to tail) about 5 to 10 degrees. The hinge allows a shin s...trap to be put on the highback which gives support on toe edge turns (without the hinge you can't shift your weight tip to tail). Toe edge support is taken out of the board and your leg and is put in the binding. I'm not sure if you can put pictures here but have some up at Home Page . Let me know what you think.


What I think is that the technical details of your design are irrelevant until you have clearly stated the _benefit_ that it provides. Why is your binding better than the bindings we are riding now? Not just different -- better. If it's not appreciably superior, then I don't care about it, regardless of its eccentricities.


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## FlipsideJohn (Jan 19, 2010)

Why change something when it's great he way it is?


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## Deviant (Dec 22, 2009)

Rocker_Binding said:


> I've been working on a snowboard binding design and am looking to see what people think of it. The binding has a hinge which allows it to pivot along the length of the board (tip to tail) about 5 to 10 degrees. The hinge allows a shin s...trap to be put on the highback which gives support on toe edge turns (without the hinge you can't shift your weight tip to tail). Toe edge support is taken out of the board and your leg and is put in the binding. I'm not sure if you can put pictures here but have some up at Home Page . Let me know what you think.


You know, you can spam post this exact same paragraph all over the place, just like you did with Boston Mills/Brandywines facebook (yeah I'm from Ohio too), but it doesn't change the fact that you're trying to revolutionize something that doesn't need to be. Right now your design looks heavy (yes I know it's a prototype, it's still more junk to increase weight no matter what), uncomfortable, takes longer to strap in, restrictive to ankle flex as BA said, and completely unnecessary. This is never going to take off, no matter how much you post it.


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## HoboMaster (May 16, 2010)

I'm so confused as to what the fuck that thing is supposed to do, and why? Why do you need your bindings to rotate on hinges? Confusion?

???


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## BurtonAvenger (Aug 14, 2007)

HoboMaster said:


> I'm so confused as to what the fuck that thing is supposed to do, and why? Why do you need your bindings to rotate on hinges? Confusion?
> 
> ???


Because engineering students like to over complicate simple things.


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## sook (Oct 25, 2009)

So after reading BAs article, is the only upside to this "invention" the ability to tweak your grabs to the moon and back? Otherwise, the hinges are just flapping around freely? I can't see any freestyle rider getting behind this. And adding the shin strap seems like its going to limit angulation carving and force inclination carving while toeside. 

As said above, where is this tech going to provide an advantage???


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## DC5R (Feb 21, 2008)

Not even going to waste my time clicking on the link.


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## Leo (Nov 24, 2009)

I understand this is still on the prototype phase, but many concerns arise for me...

Having your shin strapped in that manner... would that not cause greater injury during a fall? Also, why wouldn't someone just buy a stiffer boot for toeside power? What is the point of buying a soft boot only to strap your shin to the binding's highback?

I really dislike the idea of the shin strap. Especially for freestyle riding. I like to bend deep (that's what she said) during my carves and do stuff like indy grabs during my heelside carves. I don't see the shin strap being too helpful here.

The hinge... why? What is it going to do for me in comparison to a good canting system like Rome's Yes I Cant? Also, what is it made out of? I don't like the idea of riding on top of a metal plate especially with the plethora of low profile boots these days. What is that metal plate going to do for dampening the ride? How will landing on a hinge feel?

How is that hinge going to work on cold snowy conditions. What if ice/snow gets lodged in there and freezes. What are you going to do to combat this?

The design so far does not interest me one bit. Too many questions and concerns for me to want to try one at the moment.


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## Tarzanman (Dec 20, 2008)

If you want good feedback, then you'll have to let people who know what they are doing try them out.

The shin strap is an interesting idea, but since most highbacks pivot laterally (with relation to board direction), i'm not sure it will provide any more control than the ankle strap on a binding.

There's nothign wrong with trying to reinvent and improve existing technology. Don't let the replies here discourage you. If people gave up on 'good enough' then we would all be riding our horse buggies to the hill to take tow ropes to the top of the mountain while wearing our leather shells. :laugh:


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## john doe (Nov 6, 2009)

The basic idea is simular to what Rome did with their V-rod tech and even what Flow, Ride, and Union are doing with their reduced contact bases. This hinge idea just adds alot more parts and complexity to the idea.


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## phile00 (Jan 7, 2009)

Wow, first off... Can we not attack someone for trying something different? Even if it's a BAD idea, I truly believe we should encourage people to try to innovate. Life is about forward progress, and we can't do that without cracking some eggs. It's really easy to jump on the bandwagon and hate on something, but this guy is not trying to hurt people, he's trying to do something that he thinks may help and/or make things more fun. To the people giving him constructive criticism, that's the way it should be 

Now to the OP. I think the problem is you didn't use proper scientific method when approaching the "problem". After giving your design just a cursory glance I can honestly say that something that innovates on a current design shouldn't include an engineering patch-work solution. Right off the bat anyone can see that the shin strap is making up for the inadequacy of the design. You added instability, then you built it right back in with the shin strap. Your hinge seems to be over complicating what you're trying to go for.

As some others have already stated, you need to "sell the benefit" of your product. Don't sell the features of your binding, sell WHY your binding is so much better. Are tricks easier? Is it safer? Can you carve better? Does it make snowboarding more fun? Does it add to the sport in ways a traditional binding cannot? If you cannot answer any of these questions, I suggest you abandon your project. 

One of the beauties of snowboarding is the complexity/simplicity of its mechanics. Snowboards and bindings have virtually no moving parts! And that's brilliant! 

I applaud you for trying something different. I will say that it seems like you liked the idea of a rocker concept and engineered an artificial problem and solved it. Without actually testing out the bindings I can't make any comment for certain, but I definitely have big doubts about this design. Stay positive and use scientific method. Test, improve, test, improve, etc. If it's becomes a viable innovation, sell the benefit.


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## Phenom (Dec 15, 2007)

BurtonAvenger said:


> Because engineering students like to over complicate simple things.


Only the shitty ones.


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## ev13wt (Nov 22, 2010)

I don't get it all.

The power transfer to the toe side on bindings is done via the big strap. It transfers power to the back of the binding where it is attached, and lift it up. That will put pressure on the toe side, like a lever. The rotation is right under your foot. For more power, attach it further back on the binding. Basically, your toes actually do nothing for a toe side turn. Things like burtons gas pedal are marketing bullshit and have nothing to do with the actual mechanics. The bindings bottom front edge is doing the power transfer, not your toe. Try it out, instead of using your toes, just bend your knees for a toe side turn. Then bend them more. At a certain point you can fall asleep doing the front side without using any muscles at all. With soft boots and a cartel this even works just fine.

Attaching your new strap to my high back wouldn't do anything, because my high back would fold towards the front anyhow.

I don't understand the rest. Rocker means the rock left and right? I would miss the feedback the board is giving me. 

And turn them also? How, why? If you change angles it screws up your riding for a while until you get used to it, with this I could change the angles "on the fly"?

I would definitely try them out if I had the chance.

This is a theoretical concept. IRL snow would get compressed under those rockers really quick and then after 1 run you would have to clean it out - which noone does. So basically, this design only works on carpet.

Cliff notes from what I understand:
1. Flawed thinking about how a binding actually works, transfers power.
2. Concept makes no sense because it takes away pop and board feedback. 
3. Misunderstood concept of a rocker board
4. Won't work IRL because of snow under the system. You would have to seal it with foam at the minimum.

Kudos and props to actually building it!

Maybe build a wedge that goes under the bindings angeling them inward at 2.0° or 3 and be done with it. Remove the strap at the top because it makes no sense.


Last but not least: What is your general skill level of riding?


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## phile00 (Jan 7, 2009)

ev13wt said:


> This is a theoretical concept. IRL snow would get compressed under those rockers really quick and then after 1 run you would have to clean it out - which noone does. So basically, this design only works on carpet.


Apparently he's ridden if for the past two seasons from what he says. Personally the way the bindings rotate it seems to me like it would suck for jump stability.


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## Phenom (Dec 15, 2007)

I guess everyone in this thread is an engineer :dunno:


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## JeffreyCH (Nov 21, 2009)

Hmmm I'm trying to wrap my mind around this. I don't really get what effect is being accomplished here? Is there any benefit to having more flex tip to tail? Besides being able to tweak grabs better. It does seem over complicated like others said. :dunno: If it was me I'd put a 1/2 or 1/4 inch foam rubber pad under the binding with a stiff steel rod running heel to toe, tip tail flex, heel toe response. :dunno: No moving parts, nothing can get jammed up in it. Make it, market it, and send me a check


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## JoeR (Oct 30, 2010)

OK, it's now been almost 48 hours since the OP _requested_ feedback on his invention, and during that time he's engaged in no discussion, answered no questions, and been totally unhelpful (indeed, entirely absent). No point in taking this character seriously.


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## Triple xXx (Dec 24, 2010)

Rocker_Binding said:


> I've been working on a snowboard binding design and am looking to see what people think of it. The binding has a hinge which allows it to pivot along the length of the board (tip to tail) about 5 to 10 degrees. The hinge allows a shin s...trap to be put on the highback which gives support on toe edge turns (without the hinge you can't shift your weight tip to tail). Toe edge support is taken out of the board and your leg and is put in the binding. I'm not sure if you can put pictures here but have some up at Home Page . Let me know what you think.




Gret job man! Keep up the good work! A major manufacture will pick it up real soon!!!! :thumbsup:


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## vanoot (Mar 17, 2010)

FlipsideJohn said:


> Why change something when it's great he way it is?



This. Honestly new ideas are great but im not sure this will catch.


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## ev13wt (Nov 22, 2010)

JoeR said:


> OK, it's now been almost 48 hours since the OP _requested_ feedback on his invention, and during that time he's engaged in no discussion, answered no questions, and been totally unhelpful (indeed, entirely absent). No point in taking this character seriously.


This sounds about right. I was hoping for a discussion as well. :thumbsdown:


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## Rocker_Binding (Dec 23, 2010)

Deviant said:


> You know, you can spam post this exact same paragraph all over the place, just like you did with Boston Mills/Brandywines facebook (yeah I'm from Ohio too), but it doesn't change the fact that you're trying to revolutionize something that doesn't need to be. Right now your design looks heavy (yes I know it's a prototype, it's still more junk to increase weight no matter what), uncomfortable, takes longer to strap in, restrictive to ankle flex as BA said, and completely unnecessary. This is never going to take off, no matter how much you post it.


I know I’m posting it at different locations. I’m not trying to spam places, I’m trying to get the idea out there and see what people think and I’ve been getting a lot of responses.


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## Rocker_Binding (Dec 23, 2010)

Leo said:


> I understand this is still on the prototype phase, but many concerns arise for me...
> 
> Having your shin strapped in that manner... would that not cause greater injury during a fall? Also, why wouldn't someone just buy a stiffer boot for toeside power? What is the point of buying a soft boot only to strap your shin to the binding's highback?
> 
> ...


The shin strap isn’t going to increase or decrease the chance of injury; it will just change the location of the injury. It will probably increase the chance of injuring your lower leg and decrease the chance of injuring your ankle. 

A stiffer boot would increase toe-side power, but anything short of a ski boot would provide less support than this binding. A softer boot with this binding give you more support than you could get out of a stiff boot and is more comfortable to walk around in.

For freestyle riding, the shin strap may not be desirable. This binding may be more beneficial to freeriding. 

The baseplate is metal and doesn’t provide much dampening. The binding is similar to the Rome canting system, but it has freer and greater motion.

Landing on the hinge is fine. Since the hinge is in the middle of the baseplate, the downward force of the landing doesn’t tend to twist the hinge one way or another. 

I’ve been riding the binding for a year and a half and snow and ice are not a problem. You have a fair amount of leverage with you leg and any snow or ice is pushed out of the hinge area.


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## Rocker_Binding (Dec 23, 2010)

Tarzanman said:


> If you want good feedback, then you'll have to let people who know what they are doing try them out.
> 
> The shin strap is an interesting idea, but since most highbacks pivot laterally (with relation to board direction), i'm not sure it will provide any more control than the ankle strap on a binding.
> 
> There's nothign wrong with trying to reinvent and improve existing technology. Don't let the replies here discourage you. If people gave up on 'good enough' then we would all be riding our horse buggies to the hill to take tow ropes to the top of the mountain while wearing our leather shells. :laugh:


I’m working on getting 15 pairs made to let people go out and demo them.

Most highbacks pivot but these don’t so you get control in both directions.

Thanks for the support. I’m keeping at it.


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## Rocker_Binding (Dec 23, 2010)

john doe said:


> The basic idea is simular to what Rome did with their V-rod tech and even what Flow, Ride, and Union are doing with their reduced contact bases. This hinge idea just adds alot more parts and complexity to the idea.


It’s similar in the motion it allows but does it to a greater degree.


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## Rocker_Binding (Dec 23, 2010)

phile00 said:


> Wow, first off... Can we not attack someone for trying something different? Even if it's a BAD idea, I truly believe we should encourage people to try to innovate. Life is about forward progress, and we can't do that without cracking some eggs. It's really easy to jump on the bandwagon and hate on something, but this guy is not trying to hurt people, he's trying to do something that he thinks may help and/or make things more fun. To the people giving him constructive criticism, that's the way it should be
> 
> Now to the OP. I think the problem is you didn't use proper scientific method when approaching the "problem". After giving your design just a cursory glance I can honestly say that something that innovates on a current design shouldn't include an engineering patch-work solution. Right off the bat anyone can see that the shin strap is making up for the inadequacy of the design. You added instability, then you built it right back in with the shin strap. Your hinge seems to be over complicating what you're trying to go for.
> 
> ...


The instability (flexibility) caused by the hinge and the support from the shin strap are for different directions. The purpose of the shin strap and hinge is to provide support toe to heel (along width of the board) and flexibility side to side (along length of the board).

I’m still figuring out the benefit of the binding although it seems like it is improved carving. Originally it seemed like it could provide better carving and provide extra flexibility for tricks and grabs, but the range of motion needed for better grabs makes the binding unsafe. 

The design came out the problem of not having enough support on toe edge turns. This led to the shin strap and highback. With the shin strap there wasn’t enough motion along the length of the board so I incorporated the hinge to provide flexibility along the length of the board while maintaining rigidity along the width of the board.


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## Rocker_Binding (Dec 23, 2010)

ev13wt said:


> I don't get it all.
> 
> The power transfer to the toe side on bindings is done via the big strap. It transfers power to the back of the binding where it is attached, and lift it up. That will put pressure on the toe side, like a lever. The rotation is right under your foot. For more power, attach it further back on the binding. Basically, your toes actually do nothing for a toe side turn. Things like burtons gas pedal are marketing bullshit and have nothing to do with the actual mechanics. The bindings bottom front edge is doing the power transfer, not your toe. Try it out, instead of using your toes, just bend your knees for a toe side turn. Then bend them more. At a certain point you can fall asleep doing the front side without using any muscles at all. With soft boots and a cartel this even works just fine.
> 
> ...


This binding doesn’t turn like traditional binding. In a traditional binding when you bend your knees (and ankle) for a toe edge turn, your calf muscle is putting torque on your foot which is transferred to the board and used in the turn. The shin strap takes your calves out of the turn. The strap supports your leg. 

Yes you can’t use a shin strap on your bindings. The rocker binding highback doesn’t rotate heel to toe.

The rocker binding changes angles on the fly. It’s does take a bit to get used to the free feeling of the bindings.

I’m working on making a batch. I’ll let you know when they are done. I’m looking for people to try them out.

Packed snow and ice isn’t a problem. Your weight just pushes the snow out of the bindings.

I’m an experienced rider. I like big air, freeriding, and have done racing in the past.


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## Rocker_Binding (Dec 23, 2010)

JeffreyCH said:


> Hmmm I'm trying to wrap my mind around this. I don't really get what effect is being accomplished here? Is there any benefit to having more flex tip to tail? Besides being able to tweak grabs better. It does seem over complicated like others said. :dunno: If it was me I'd put a 1/2 or 1/4 inch foam rubber pad under the binding with a stiff steel rod running heel to toe, tip tail flex, heel toe response. :dunno: No moving parts, nothing can get jammed up in it. Make it, market it, and send me a check


Interesting idea. You’d have to have some flex in the rod so it could move along the length of the board. Would you leave the shin strap on?


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## Rocker_Binding (Dec 23, 2010)

JoeR said:


> OK, it's now been almost 48 hours since the OP _requested_ feedback on his invention, and during that time he's engaged in no discussion, answered no questions, and been totally unhelpful (indeed, entirely absent). No point in taking this character seriously.





ev13wt said:


> This sounds about right. I was hoping for a discussion as well. :thumbsdown:


Sorry for the delay. I didn’t see that there was multiple pages of responses.


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## Qball (Jun 22, 2010)

With bindings, the fewer moving parts the better! These bindings have way to many moving parts and way to many ways to break.


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## Rocker_Binding (Dec 23, 2010)

Qball said:


> With bindings, the fewer moving parts the better! These bindings have way to many moving parts and way to many ways to break.


The binding are over designed. They are aluminum except for the highback and straps. They are much more durable than all of the plastic stuff out there.


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## SilverSurfer (Sep 27, 2010)

Rocker_Binding said:


> The binding are over designed. They are aluminum except for the highback and straps. They are much more durable than all of the plastic stuff out there.


No shit.
Save your money, your invention has already been played out. Clickers and Switch bindings died because you have no lateral movement in the hard boot, your 3rd strap will accomplish the stiff legged look. For hard carving buy a hard boot setup. Stop wasting your money and go buy a new board and bindings, see why everyone is giving you negative feedback.


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## ev13wt (Nov 22, 2010)

Thanks for you response!

As with every technological advancement, the prototype phases will always be fun and filled with feedback.

Keep at it even if you will change the concept down the road. Always look at all angles!


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## Qball (Jun 22, 2010)

Rocker_Binding said:


> The binding are over designed. They are aluminum except for the highback and straps. They are much more durable than all of the plastic stuff out there.


Moving parts will wear down and eventually fail, no matter how strong the material is.


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## BurtonAvenger (Aug 14, 2007)

Rocker_Binding said:


> The design came out the problem of not having enough support on toe edge turns. This led to the shin strap and highback. With the shin strap there wasn’t enough motion along the length of the board so I incorporated the hinge to provide flexibility along the length of the board while maintaining rigidity along the width of the board.


What the hell crack are you smoking? Toe side turns are the one thing we do not have problems with as it gives us the most leverage. Heelside is where we lack when it comes to railing turns. God damn this just gets more and more retarded by the response. More moving parts = bad idea. Aluminum stronger than the plastics? Guess you failed to realize that most of the "plastic" bindings are a composite made up of nylon, fiberglass, other magical elements, and plastic. Aluminum bends especially when it gets cold, ask anyone that's taco'd a pair of Rides it also lacks in natural dampening and sends every micro vibration up into the sole of your boot and right into your arch causing fatigue.


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## phile00 (Jan 7, 2009)

BurtonAvenger said:


> What the hell crack are you smoking? Toe side turns are the one thing we do not have problems with as it gives us the most leverage. Heelside is where we lack when it comes to railing turns. God damn this just gets more and more retarded by the response. More moving parts = bad idea. Aluminum stronger than the plastics? Guess you failed to realize that most of the "plastic" bindings are a composite made up of nylon, fiberglass, other magical elements, and plastic. Aluminum bends especially when it gets cold, ask anyone that's taco'd a pair of Rides it also lacks in natural dampening and sends every micro vibration up into the sole of your boot and right into your arch causing fatigue.


He would have been better off just saying he wanted to try to make a more fun way to carve. The current snowboard/binding design works perfectly for carving. 

On a separate note though, although I have zero problems carving, I've always found heel-side carves easier for me to rail than toe-side, and I'm a regular footed rider. Especially so when I'm riding switch.


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## Leo (Nov 24, 2009)

phile00 said:


> On a separate note though, although I have zero problems carving, I've always found heel-side carves easier for me to rail than toe-side, and I'm a regular footed rider. Especially so when I'm riding switch.


This is most likely due to your gear. There are plenty of boots and bindings out there with forward lean for this very purpose: to increase heel side power.

I rock a moderate forward lean and love it. Toe-side has never been a problem for me. I can lean to where I'm knuckling the snow when I do toe-side.


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## ev13wt (Nov 22, 2010)

Maybe you could incorporate the hinge into the highback instead of the base!


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## phile00 (Jan 7, 2009)

Leo said:


> This is most likely due to your gear. There are plenty of boots and bindings out there with forward lean for this very purpose: to increase heel side power.
> 
> I rock a moderate forward lean and love it. Toe-side has never been a problem for me. I can lean to where I'm knuckling the snow when I do toe-side.


Honestly it's never been a problem, but what I was saying was if I had to pick, toe-side would be harder than heel-side for me, whereas most people say the opposite. I rock forward lean as well and my setup has always been perfectly centered. I'm very particular about being dialed in. *shrug


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## FtCS4 (Dec 30, 2010)

BurtonAvenger said:


> What the hell crack are you smoking? Toe side turns are the one thing we do not have problems with as it gives us the most leverage. Heelside is where we lack when it comes to railing turns. God damn this just gets more and more retarded by the response. More moving parts = bad idea. Aluminum stronger than the plastics? Guess you failed to realize that most of the "plastic" bindings are a composite made up of nylon, fiberglass, other magical elements, and plastic. *Aluminum bends especially when it gets cold,* ask anyone that's taco'd a pair of Rides it also lacks in natural dampening and sends every micro vibration up into the sole of your boot and right into your arch causing fatigue.


lolwut?

I definitely agree with you about composites. Many engineering grade composites are much stronger than aluminum. However, aluminum definitely does NOT experience an increase in ductility with lowering temperature. Exact opposite, actually. Colder temperatures make it more prone to brittle failure, not plastic deformation.


Though I'm another one on the wagon of 'why?' Nothing wrong with bindings as they are now, and as others have mentioned it seems like you're over-complicating something that is intentionally as simple as possible.


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## Rocker_Binding (Dec 23, 2010)

SilverSurfer said:


> No shit.
> Save your money, your invention has already been played out. Clickers and Switch bindings died because you have no lateral movement in the hard boot, your 3rd strap will accomplish the stiff legged look. For hard carving buy a hard boot setup. Stop wasting your money and go buy a new board and bindings, see why everyone is giving you negative feedback.


Who played this idea out? Are you talking about step ins?


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## Rocker_Binding (Dec 23, 2010)

Qball said:


> With bindings, the fewer moving parts the better! These bindings have way to many moving parts and way to many ways to break.


Eventually, yes but so does everything. I’m sure if you used them for 100 years the would wear out.


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## Rocker_Binding (Dec 23, 2010)

BurtonAvenger said:


> What the hell crack are you smoking? Toe side turns are the one thing we do not have problems with as it gives us the most leverage. Heelside is where we lack when it comes to railing turns. God damn this just gets more and more retarded by the response. More moving parts = bad idea. Aluminum stronger than the plastics? Guess you failed to realize that most of the "plastic" bindings are a composite made up of nylon, fiberglass, other magical elements, and plastic. Aluminum bends especially when it gets cold, ask anyone that's taco'd a pair of Rides it also lacks in natural dampening and sends every micro vibration up into the sole of your boot and right into your arch causing fatigue.


I’m not going to argue on the need for it. It’s tough to convince someone of that writing back and forth. 

Aluminum gets stiffer with the cold kind of like everything else (steel, plastic, pretty much material).

The hinges provide dampening vibration.


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## Rocker_Binding (Dec 23, 2010)

phile00 said:


> He would have been better off just saying he wanted to try to make a more fun way to carve. The current snowboard/binding design works perfectly for carving.
> 
> On a separate note though, although I have zero problems carving, I've always found heel-side carves easier for me to rail than toe-side, and I'm a regular footed rider. Especially so when I'm riding switch.


Why is the toe-side hard? Is it a lack of support?


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## Rocker_Binding (Dec 23, 2010)

ev13wt said:


> Maybe you could incorporate the hinge into the highback instead of the base!


That what I was thinking originally, but it causes your boot to rock up on the right or left side of the sole which feels weird. The part of the boot below the highback hinge wants to stay still and the part of the boot above the highback hinge wants to move which contorts the boot. It was also difficult to keep the straps tight with a highback hinge point. I’ve heard there was a design like that in the late 80s or early 90s with 3 straps (believe it was called the flex). I ran into a guy who used to have them but didn’t anymore. I’m working on getting a pair.


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## Rocker_Binding (Dec 23, 2010)

FtCS4 said:


> lolwut?
> 
> I definitely agree with you about composites. Many engineering grade composites are much stronger than aluminum. However, aluminum definitely does NOT experience an increase in ductility with lowering temperature. Exact opposite, actually. Colder temperatures make it more prone to brittle failure, not plastic deformation.
> 
> ...


I agree with you on the ductility issue. I’m not sure what he’s thinking.

Convincing people this binding is better is difficult, especially just writing back and forth. I’m going to take a more hands on approach of starting to demo the binding.


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## phile00 (Jan 7, 2009)

Rocker_Binding said:


> Why is the toe-side hard? Is it a lack of support?


Toe side isn't hard for me. I'm a pretty experienced carver. I was just stating that if I had to pick one, I'd pick toe side. I guess doing cross under and skidded, dynamic skidded turns I just feel like I bite into the snow better on my heelside.


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## Deviant (Dec 22, 2009)

Rocker_Binding said:


> The shin strap isn’t going to increase or decrease the chance of injury; it will just change the location of the injury. It will probably increase the chance of injuring your lower leg and decrease the chance of injuring your ankle.
> 
> A stiffer boot would increase toe-side power, but anything short of a ski boot would provide less support than this binding. A softer boot with this binding give you more support than you could get out of a stiff boot and is more comfortable to walk around in.


 Walking around isn't really part of my day I consider when snowboarding (or skiing 20 years ago), my focus is on snow-time, and it's not a good selling point.



> For freestyle riding, the shin strap may not be desirable. This binding may be more beneficial to freeriding.


Few things. One, if freeriding and you decide to drop off something and you land on the tail, what happens to your balance when the bindings pivot like that? Right now due to media, the market is freestyle riding. Especially here in Ohio (which according to your post on BMBW I'm assuming you like here as well. Lastly, you're making something that takes even longer to strap in. With a lot of people riding Flows and Auto-evers, this is a going the opposite direction.



> The baseplate is metal and doesn’t provide much dampening.


*Problem.* Dampening is even more important at higher speeds, which many freeriders will do more so than someone doing a lap in the park.


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## Rocker_Binding (Dec 23, 2010)

Deviant said:


> Walking around isn't really part of my day I consider when snowboarding (or skiing 20 years ago), my focus is on snow-time, and it's not a good selling point.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


When you land on the tail, the bindings will rotate a few degrees until they hit the rubber bumpers. At that point they will behave like any other binding. I'm in Columbus and board at Snowtrails. I agree with you that the market out here is more freestyle due to the lack of real mountains.

I think this design could be done with a step in binding using 3 points of contact at the toe, heel, and up by the ankle.


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## Rocker_Binding (Dec 23, 2010)

I have bindings made up and available for demo now. Let me know if you are interested at [email protected].

Rocker Binding - The Rocker Binding


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## tj_ras (Feb 13, 2011)

I would not strap that onto my feet....ever. That has bruised heels written all over it. And theres so many screws and nuts on this that id be too afraid of it falling apart.


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## legallyillegal (Oct 6, 2008)

what the hell


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## BurtonAvenger (Aug 14, 2007)

legallyillegal said:


> what the hell


Exactly can't believe this is still going on.


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## Argo (Feb 25, 2010)

I would try them out... I mean why not.... without people trying new stuff we would be still riding on waterski bindings...


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## Smokehaus (Nov 2, 2010)

Those look like something that Hitler would make you strap on your feet and force you to go water skiing for torture.


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## surfinsnow (Feb 4, 2010)

Rocker_Binding said:


> I have bindings made up and available for demo now. Let me know if you are interested at [email protected].
> 
> Rocker Binding - The Rocker Binding


Uh, it's hard to comment on the claims and features because the brochure is so poorly written. I admit, I work in advertising and I write, so I MIGHT be being a bit anal about this, but I don't think so. I can understand an occasional typo that gets past when you're posting quickly to a message board...but dude, _this is your sales material!_ Most likely the first thing your potential customers will use for information on your product. With all the broken English, typos, blatant misspellings and wrong tenses it's amazing I made it through as much as I did. Do yourself (and your company and investors, if any) and hire a professional copywriter and/or proofer.

That said...the thing looks bizarre. Not in a bad way, necessarily. A lot of people think Flow's look funny. And speaking of Flow's, I think if you read through the hundreds of Flow threads here you'll see that "moving parts" are probably their biggest problem. Too many, which means too many potential failure points. The shin strap kind of freaks me out, too. No dedicated boot? So you're ready to get sued when some assclown tries to ride in sneakers and snaps his leg in half because you advertised that you don't need task-specific boots?

More power to you for trying. I can't comment on whether or not they actually perform as you claim, but at least you're thinking about innovation and advancement. That can never be a bad thing. Hell, someone might check that out and say "EUREKA!" and come up with some modification or addition that will make the binding truly revolutionary. Best of luck to you...and fix that copy!


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## ranger5oh (Feb 6, 2010)

Mad props on getting your invention to this stage. I hope you applied for patent protection, as I can definitely see some great aspects of this binding (like the actual rocking design). (I am a patent attorney, which is why I think this is so important)

Overall, I think the shin strap might be a bad idea, as most people are looking for less straps, not more.

I also think you are a bit premature on trying to sell these. I'd probably try to get some more video of GOOD riders using them, and get some testimonials to put up (video is better than written). You may also want to look into some sort of rubber dampening material on the base to prevent vibration...or maybe hook up with a composites manufacturer and see about getting a composite prototype made.

Do you have a set without the shin strap? Seriously, I think if you ditch the shin strap, you'd get way more interest.

edit- To all those people who re really knocking the design, I think "constructive criticism" would go much farther than just bashing them. Seriously, have you guys seen the first Burton snowboards and boots? EVERYTHING goes through its infancy and eventually gets better. Lets not stifle innovation, lets encourage it!


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## surfinsnow (Feb 4, 2010)

Adding a new post instead of burying this in the previous reply, because it's SLIGHTLY off-topic. On the subject of innovation, here's one of the things I'm talking about (disclaimer; I did some design work for these guys a couple of years ago, but I don't know where the company is now. The web site is pretty weak, copyright date is 2005, so I don't know if they're still viable). 

Check this out -- TWISTLIFT -- binding mounts that ROTATE with the kick of button so you can skate and dismount chairlifts with your feet facing FORWARD, instead of having to torque out your knees and feet. I have a pair of the first version, still in the box. They're actually pretty brilliant. I never used the pair I have because a) I wanted to keep them pristine in the box in case they ever become collectable, and b) the first ones are made of cast iron or something, and add at least five pounds to the board. New version (which is what I was helping on) was supposedly being made out of lightweight aluminum or titanium, and cut about 1/4-1/2" off the profile.

BTW, this isn't spam. I have nothing to do with this company, I just think it's a great idea and a good example of some truly innovative thinking solving a real problem.


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## Rocker_Binding (Dec 23, 2010)

tj_ras said:


> I would not strap that onto my feet....ever. That has bruised heels written all over it. And theres so many screws and nuts on this that id be too afraid of it falling apart.


The binding is still in the development and refinement stage. It's probably not for you.


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## Rocker_Binding (Dec 23, 2010)

Argo said:


> I would try them out... I mean why not.... without people trying new stuff we would be still riding on waterski bindings...


If you're interested contact me [email protected].


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## Rocker_Binding (Dec 23, 2010)

surfinsnow said:


> Uh, it's hard to comment on the claims and features because the brochure is so poorly written. I admit, I work in advertising and I write, so I MIGHT be being a bit anal about this, but I don't think so. I can understand an occasional typo that gets past when you're posting quickly to a message board...but dude, _this is your sales material!_ Most likely the first thing your potential customers will use for information on your product. With all the broken English, typos, blatant misspellings and wrong tenses it's amazing I made it through as much as I did. Do yourself (and your company and investors, if any) and hire a professional copywriter and/or proofer.
> 
> That said...the thing looks bizarre. Not in a bad way, necessarily. A lot of people think Flow's look funny. And speaking of Flow's, I think if you read through the hundreds of Flow threads here you'll see that "moving parts" are probably their biggest problem. Too many, which means too many potential failure points. The shin strap kind of freaks me out, too. No dedicated boot? So you're ready to get sued when some assclown tries to ride in sneakers and snaps his leg in half because you advertised that you don't need task-specific boots?
> 
> More power to you for trying. I can't comment on whether or not they actually perform as you claim, but at least you're thinking about innovation and advancement. That can never be a bad thing. Hell, someone might check that out and say "EUREKA!" and come up with some modification or addition that will make the binding truly revolutionary. Best of luck to you...and fix that copy!


Your not anal. I'm well aware. This isn't a big company with investors and what not. I'm just a grad student working on this as a side project. Time is always short and there are honestly more important things to devote time to right now. I have a friend helping with the grammar who's helping out which is great and I'm not going to rail them on a schedule for pro bono help their nice enough to give me. Don't be in the mind set that this is sale material. If I held myself to that level I would set people up to be disappointed. We aren't a mega corp and we're just trying to test out an idea to see where it's going.

Moving parts are a problem. That's why the the hinge is large and long to hold up over time. It's definitely an issue. We don't officially suggest that you try to ride your bindings in shoes.

Thanks for the generally positive feedback.


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## Rocker_Binding (Dec 23, 2010)

ranger5oh said:


> Mad props on getting your invention to this stage. I hope you applied for patent protection, as I can definitely see some great aspects of this binding (like the actual rocking design). (I am a patent attorney, which is why I think this is so important)
> 
> Overall, I think the shin strap might be a bad idea, as most people are looking for less straps, not more.
> 
> ...


For the shin strap, there are two unique aspects in the binding the lateral flexibility and the support from the shin strap. They are independent of one another and could be used on their own. The flexibility gets a better response than the 3rd shin strap. I agree a 3rd strap is more of a pain. Especially in Ohio where I am from and the runs aren't as long. I've ridden it with the toe strap off and another time with the shin strap off. You lose some control when you use less straps. I have some ideas of how to get it back down to two straps and want to try them this summer when things slow down. Step ins are always an option although I to need to really figure out if I can overcome some of the reason step ins went away before.

I agree. Honestly I'm not expect to sell many or any but I've run into some folks who get real excited about them (usually for the 3rd strap for a racing or boardcross setup) so I'm just making them available. It's not much of a hassle to have a page to sell them. I'm selling them for cost (stuff is expensive when you don't make tens of thousands) so I'm not pressing the sales side heavily.

I'm looking for good people to ride them. Let me know if you know anyone. Sponsorship always complicates things since people don't want to be filmed if they have a sponsorship with someone else. 

I don't have a setup without a shin strap but that is as simple as taking it off. Here's a question though, is it the shin strap which scares people or 3 straps?

Thanks for the defense. I don't take the useless comments hard, I just take them for what they're worth. I saw some of the historic Burton bindings. I'm not knocking them because I understand, but a picture would be nice to shut up other people.


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## Rocker_Binding (Dec 23, 2010)

surfinsnow said:


> Adding a new post instead of burying this in the previous reply, because it's SLIGHTLY off-topic. On the subject of innovation, here's one of the things I'm talking about (disclaimer; I did some design work for these guys a couple of years ago, but I don't know where the company is now. The web site is pretty weak, copyright date is 2005, so I don't know if they're still viable).
> 
> Check this out -- TWISTLIFT -- binding mounts that ROTATE with the kick of button so you can skate and dismount chairlifts with your feet facing FORWARD, instead of having to torque out your knees and feet. I have a pair of the first version, still in the box. They're actually pretty brilliant. I never used the pair I have because a) I wanted to keep them pristine in the box in case they ever become collectable, and b) the first ones are made of cast iron or something, and add at least five pounds to the board. New version (which is what I was helping on) was supposedly being made out of lightweight aluminum or titanium, and cut about 1/4-1/2" off the profile.
> 
> BTW, this isn't spam. I have nothing to do with this company, I just think it's a great idea and a good example of some truly innovative thinking solving a real problem.


Do you do snowboard binding design regularly or was this a random project?

TwistLift is similar to several other design out there. The main one is Quick Stance. There was one called Swivler (now defunct) which broke easily. Another design is one called Bearing but I don't think they have a website. There are more but the names aren't coming to me at the moment. Several people have had this idea.


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## tj_ras (Feb 13, 2011)

Rocker_Binding said:


> The binding is still in the development and refinement stage. It's probably not for you.


I personally think that sone kind of absortion should have been added to your demo set, you used aluminum for everything if it were plastic itd be fine becuase plastic has some absortion, and u also added a localized pressure point with that hinge being so thin, wich is why i say bruised heels will be occuring to who ever is testing these especially if they dont use boots with enough cussion.

So yes these arent for me becuase i choose not to wear these untill u figureout a way to not severly injure the riders feet. I pitty whoever has to test these demo versions.


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## Rocker_Binding (Dec 23, 2010)

tj_ras said:


> I personally think that sone kind of absortion should have been added to your demo set, you used aluminum for everything if it were plastic itd be fine becuase plastic has some absortion, and u also added a localized pressure point with that hinge being so thin, wich is why i say bruised heels will be occuring to who ever is testing these especially if they dont use boots with enough cussion.
> 
> So yes these arent for me becuase i choose not to wear these untill u figureout a way to not severly injure the riders feet. I pitty whoever has to test these demo versions.


The binding have been ridden for 2 years now with 20+ riders. No complaints to date of bruised heels to date. 

How do pressure points cause bruised heels?


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## fattrav (Feb 21, 2009)

I can see what you're trying to achieve with this, and hey, good on your for trying something different, i hope it works out well for you...

Honestly, this thing looks like its been put together by a monkey and Quality checked by a blind down syndrome kid. Do you happen to work for Union Bindings do you?


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## tj_ras (Feb 13, 2011)

Rocker_Binding said:


> The binding have been ridden for 2 years now with 20+ riders. No complaints to date of bruised heels to date.
> 
> How do pressure points cause bruised heels?


the more you localize(make smaller) a pressured area the more chance you run of injury in that area. it would most likely do more then bruise a heel, maybe bruise the arch of your foot.

example:
thumb tack vs a nail

thumb tack takes little force to puncture a wall were the nail needs to be hammered.

this is becuase the thumb tack is so small.


see where im coming from? 

and like i said if your whereing good enough boots you most likely dont have to worry about this, but you say you can wear any boots with these wich would lead some people to wear plain old work boots.

easiest way to fix this would be to add some kind of pading.


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## Rocker_Binding (Dec 23, 2010)

tj_ras said:


> the more you localize(make smaller) a pressured area the more chance you run of injury in that area. it would most likely do more then bruise a heel, maybe bruise the arch of your foot.
> 
> example:
> thumb tack vs a nail
> ...


Ok I see what you are coming from. Since the baseplate is aluminum is distributes the relatively small area of the hinge to a much larger area (sort of a metal plate on top of a tack principal).

I haven't had any complaints yet, but I'll keep a look out for it.

Where are you getting that it a good idea to ride it in boots? Is it "We’ve ridden bindings with the shin strap with just tennis shoes on without any problems although we don’t suggest you do this any time soon.". I specifically say that I don't suggest people doing it, but you are the second person to say something about me endorsing riding them in tennis shoes.


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## Rocker_Binding (Dec 23, 2010)

fattrav said:


> I can see what you're trying to achieve with this, and hey, good on your for trying something different, i hope it works out well for you...
> 
> Honestly, this thing looks like its been put together by a monkey and Quality checked by a blind down syndrome kid. Do you happen to work for Union Bindings do you?


Still in the early stages of design. All binding go through this, you just usually don't get to see it.


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## BurtonAvenger (Aug 14, 2007)

You knuckle a jump on this thing and not some shitty Ohio jump but like a 35 footer you're dead.


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## tj_ras (Feb 13, 2011)

Im just saying about the boots thi g becuase in the world we live in with all the sue happy lawers if somebody gets injjured while wearing shoes and the lawer sees that u say you can wear tennis shoes the wont care what the rest of the sentence says they will use that part and ull be paying whatever becuase ur gonna lose in court to that.


Im not trying to be a dueche toward you at all but just trying to help u out. I come from a backround in useing metals and i know how centralizeing forces with them may lead to failure. Granted i dont look at it towards injuries on humans.


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## surfinsnow (Feb 4, 2010)

Rocker_Binding said:


> Do you do snowboard binding design regularly or was this a random project?


Sorry, I wasn't clear. I did packaging and logo design for them. The whole project was put on hold while they focused on making their new prototype. I really don't know what they did after that. I got paid for what I did, but none of it ever saw the light of day. At least, not yet.


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## legallyillegal (Oct 6, 2008)

Rocker_Binding said:


> The binding is still in the development and refinement stage. It's probably not for you.


or anybody


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## Extremo (Nov 6, 2008)

This is the best thing I've ever seen...I needed a good laugh.


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## Rocker_Binding (Dec 23, 2010)

tj_ras said:


> Im just saying about the boots thi g becuase in the world we live in with all the sue happy lawers if somebody gets injjured while wearing shoes and the lawer sees that u say you can wear tennis shoes the wont care what the rest of the sentence says they will use that part and ull be paying whatever becuase ur gonna lose in court to that.
> 
> 
> Im not trying to be a dueche toward you at all but just trying to help u out. I come from a backround in useing metals and i know how centralizeing forces with them may lead to failure. Granted i dont look at it towards injuries on humans.


Do you see anything to improve the design still using metal?


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## Rocker_Binding (Dec 23, 2010)

surfinsnow said:


> Sorry, I wasn't clear. I did packaging and logo design for them. The whole project was put on hold while they focused on making their new prototype. I really don't know what they did after that. I got paid for what I did, but none of it ever saw the light of day. At least, not yet.


There's a lot of ideas people start on that never make it anywhere.


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## Breckenridge (Oct 1, 2009)

The design looks like your ankle is locked into place by the upper strap??? true?


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## Smokehaus (Nov 2, 2010)

tj_ras said:


> Im just saying about the boots thi g becuase in the world we live in with all the sue happy lawers if somebody gets injjured while wearing shoes and the lawer sees that u say you can wear tennis shoes the wont care what the rest of the sentence says they will use that part and ull be paying whatever becuase ur gonna lose in court to that.
> 
> Im not trying to be a dueche toward you at all but just trying to help u out. I come from a backround in useing metals and i know how centralizeing forces with them may lead to failure. Granted i dont look at it towards injuries on humans.


I am glad that you are into metals and not grammar. :laugh:


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## cjwalsh7 (Jan 19, 2011)

So how exactly will the binding be attached to a regular board with the hinge on it?


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## tj_ras (Feb 13, 2011)

Smokehaus said:


> I am glad that you are into metals and not grammar. :laugh:


Yea im sorry. I usualy go back and re read my responses to fix everything but im doing all this from my iphone and theres so many mistakes that i just dont feel like sitting here for 20 minutes fixing them lol. When i get my new laptop grammar will be amazing i assure u.



Rocker_Binding said:


> Do you see anything to improve the design still using metal?


Ill look into it but i dont belive theres an efficient way of doing it using metal. But like i said ill look into it some


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## Rocker_Binding (Dec 23, 2010)

Breckenridge said:


> The design looks like your ankle is locked into place by the upper strap??? true?


You are correct.


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## Rocker_Binding (Dec 23, 2010)

cjwalsh7 said:


> So how exactly will the binding be attached to a regular board with the hinge on it?


Right now the binding is designed to mount to a 4 hole system and could easily be made to mount a 3-hole or channel system with a different mounting plate. 

This page shows a picture of the mounting plate withe lower hinge:
Rocker Binding - The Rocker Binding

This page is a how to:
4-Hole Mounting


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## Rocker_Binding (Dec 23, 2010)

tj_ras said:


> Yea im sorry. I usualy go back and re read my responses to fix everything but im doing all this from my iphone and theres so many mistakes that i just dont feel like sitting here for 20 minutes fixing them lol. When i get my new laptop grammar will be amazing i assure u.


Hear, hear. There are better things to spend your time on than grammar.


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## Breckenridge (Oct 1, 2009)

Originally Posted by Breckenridge 
The design looks like your ankle is locked into place by the upper strap??? true?
You are correct.

OK . here is the main problem as I see it. Snowboarding is a sport of extreme ankle flexion and extention. Havent you ever popped off your toes using only your ankles? You're eliminating half of your lower body's movement. The knee, ankle, and hip joints all work together as a system to push off and absorb. quite often when tossing spins I simple load up an arm or two and pop using only my ankles. I love my binding the way they are. Minimal.


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## Smokehaus (Nov 2, 2010)

Rocker_Binding said:


> Hear, hear. There are better things to spend your time on than grammar.


I am by far not a grammar nazi I just hate trying to read something that looks like it was written by someone who's english is their second language.


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## Deviant (Dec 22, 2009)

BurtonAvenger said:


> You knuckle a jump on this thing and not some shitty Ohio jump but like a 35 footer you're dead.


35 footers aren't uncommon here, but yes, compared to where you ride our stuff is shitty, and would probably hurt more hitting a knuckle here than out west due to the ice.

Going back to the bindings, did you (the OP) fabricate the ratchets and straps, or is this something you're taking from another company?


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## cjwalsh7 (Jan 19, 2011)

I'm just not really understanding the point here. You've created an overly complicated binding with many moving parts, extra straps, bindings that actually move around on the board, but there is no benefit... I don't get it, why bother?


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## honeycomb (Feb 6, 2011)

BurtonAvenger said:


> You knuckle a jump on this thing and not some shitty Ohio jump but like a 35 footer you're dead.


We build 'em just as big over here, we just don't have the 3 feet of powder to cushion your pansy ass when you fall.


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## Rocker_Binding (Dec 23, 2010)

Breckenridge said:


> Originally Posted by Breckenridge
> The design looks like your ankle is locked into place by the upper strap??? true?
> You are correct.
> 
> OK . here is the main problem as I see it. Snowboarding is a sport of extreme ankle flexion and extention. Havent you ever popped off your toes using only your ankles? You're eliminating half of your lower body's movement. The knee, ankle, and hip joints all work together as a system to push off and absorb. quite often when tossing spins I simple load up an arm or two and pop using only my ankles. I love my binding the way they are. Minimal.


The Rocker design is definitely different. It does reduce or eliminate much of the ankle's motion. This can be good in that it reduces fatigue on your lower leg. It could also be limit your motion as you said.

I wonder if you are really using only your ankles for your pop. I tried jumping here using only my ankle joint without a board(no knee bending). I can push myself up a few inches but I can't get off the ground at all. Give it a try. I have a feeling you need the much larger muscle of your upper leg to get air.


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## Rocker_Binding (Dec 23, 2010)

Deviant said:


> 35 footers aren't uncommon here, but yes, compared to where you ride our stuff is shitty, and would probably hurt more hitting a knuckle here than out west due to the ice.
> 
> Going back to the bindings, did you (the OP) fabricate the ratchets and straps, or is this something you're taking from another company?


Purchased from another company


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## Rocker_Binding (Dec 23, 2010)

cjwalsh7 said:


> I'm just not really understanding the point here. You've created an overly complicated binding with many moving parts, extra straps, bindings that actually move around on the board, but there is no benefit... I don't get it, why bother?


The two benefit are:

Increased lateral motion for grabs, balance, and tweaking trick
Increased toe edge support allowing to get a setup as responsive as a hard boot


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## Breckenridge (Oct 1, 2009)

Dear OP.....You are questioning whether or not I am using my ankles?
I believe at this point that this product is not real. I don't believe anybody who actually snowboards would want the use of their ankles removed from the equation. Moveable ankles was another great idea from nature and evolution. 
TO SUM UP: I have been drawn in to comment on what is probably a joke or scam, and I apologize.


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## Rocker_Binding (Dec 23, 2010)

Breckenridge said:


> Dear OP.....You are questioning whether or not I am using my ankles?? I can do a 360, stiff legged, with a one arm windup,riding flat on a groomer, popping only with my ankles.. are you kidding? now you are justifying bad design due to ignorance. Where are you from ? Iowa?


I was thinking you were talking about just popping up. So you are saying you are popping up and 360ing. How high are you getting off the ground?


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